From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Sun Aug 1 01:09:30 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 20:09:30 -0500 Subject: ride shotgun Message-ID: The term was widespread among teenagers in Orlando (FL) and Jackson (MS) in the mid '50s. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joan Houston Hall To: Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 11:19 AM Subject: ride shotgun > DARE is into the R's and S's now, and we've been looking at the phrases > with "ride." In considering the phrase "ride shotgun," meaning 'to ride in > the front passenger seat of a car,' we've found that it's widespread > throughout the country, and that there are more than 65 web pages that > offer "Shotgun Rules!" But we got to wondering about the presumed source > of that meaning, 'to ride as an armed guard on a stagecoach,' and have come > up with nothing. The earliest quote we've found is from 1961, and is for > the car sense, though it alludes to a historic sense. Is the stagecoach > meaning a figment of our imagination? Did it come from a popular Western > movie and get quickly transferred to a car? Can anyone help? Thanks! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Aug 1 01:47:49 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 21:47:49 EDT Subject: Bath-tub Message-ID: Thiis is from AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS (1997): _1870 bathtub_ Mark Twain seems to have invented the bathtub. Well, not the object itself. Baths, and wooden tubs for bathing, sometimes called _bathing tubs_, had been around for centuries. But Twain appears to be the first to join the two one-syllable words _bath_ and _tub_. In _Innocents Abroad_ (1869) he wrote, "They were going to put all three of us in one bath-tub." And in "A Ghost Story" of 1870 he wrote, "I...was sorry that he was gone...and sorrier still that he had carried off my red blanket and my bath-tub." By 1870, then, we can say that the bathtub had been installed in our language. Mark Twain probably invented "bathtub" right after he got through inventing "mountain climbing." Yes, it's 1870 in the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS, but that's all wet! BATHTUB (Accessible Archives) THE UPLAND UNION, 16 July 1851: "...when he returned he found his mother in the bathtub, with her head down." BATH TUB (Accessible Archives) THE NATIONAL ERA, 6 November 1851: "The bed is water enclosed in an India rubber tick, which lines a box, in shape like a bath tub." ((Making of America) AMERICA AS I FOUND IT (1852) by Mary Grey Lundie Duncan, pg. 329: "In the centre of the room is fixed a circular bath-tub..." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Aug 1 01:47:51 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 21:47:51 EDT Subject: Face the music; Pork barrel; Yellow journalism; Country club Message-ID: So many new databases, so many American words and phrases... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FACE THE MUSIC The RHHDAS has: _face the music_, 1. to face danger or hardship. 1850 in DAE: There should be no skulking or dodging...every man should "face the music." (...) 2. to face the consequences. Now S.E. 1862 "E. Kirke" _Among Pines_ 88: Dat sort don't run; dey face de music! From Accessible Archives, this is from THE NATIONAL ERA, Washington, D. C., Vol. II, No. 80, pg. 111, 13 July 1848: "FACE THE MUSIC."--The correspondent of the North American reports very accurately an amusing scene which we had the pleasure of seeing the other day in the Senate. (Is Congress online yet?--ed.) "Mr. Hale, of New Hampshire, the Liberty candidate for the Presidency, is not only a man of cleverness and parts, but withal a very good fellow, and no little of a wag. During the discursive debate in the Senate yesterday, upon an interrogatory being propounded to Mr. Foote--as to the conduct of General Cass--Mr. Hale, with much affected gravity, raised a point of order, alleging that it seemed to him entirely inconsistent, when a Presidential candidate had resigned his seat to avoid expressing his opinions, that his friends should be catechized as to those opinions. "Mr. FOOTE.--As the Senator from New Hampshire is an aspirant himself, what does he think a candidate ought to do? "Mr. HALE.--(while promptitude and humor.) 'Why, stand up and _face the music._'" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PORK BARREL "Pork barrel" is the word-of-the-year for 1909 in AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS. The first citation on the Periodicals Contents Index is also 1909. However, this was in the Historical Newspapers Online index for THE NEW YORK TIMES: United States Congress--Fifty-fourth, First Session: Appropriations: Speaker Reed's Policy of Economy Must Be Waived in Interest of Presidential Candidacy and the "Pork Barrel" (Editorial) 01 February 1896 (Page 4 col 4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- YELLOW JOURNALISM "Yellow journalism" is the word-of-the-year for 1898 in AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS. These came up on the index for THE NEW YORK TIMES: Newspaper--Generally: "Freaks": Gard, A. L.: "Signs of Promise in Crusade Against Yellow Journalism" 16 June 1897 (Page 3 col 2) Newspapers--New York Sun: Yellow Journalism Charge at Citiizens' Union Mass Meeting 02 October 1897 (Page 2 col 7) New York CIty--City Record: Pictures Introduced: Yellow Journalism Tendency (Editorial) 31 December 1897 (Page 6 col 4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- COUNTRY CLUB "Country club" is the word-of-the-year in AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS for 1891. The BDE has it from 1894. (Accessible Archives) THE PENNSYLVANIA GAZETTE, 30 August 1775: "...had on, and took with him, a country club light coloured upper jacket..." (Accessible Archives) THE LADY'S BOOK, March 1835, pg. 126: "...so refreshing to the weary spirits of a country club..." (Historical Newspapers Online) THE NEW YORK TIMES, 12 October 1884, pg. 7, col. 2, "Athletic Sports--Country Club of Westchester County: Racing Meeting Programme." (Periodicals Contents Index) "Raisin Making: A Chautauqua Town and Country Club Report," CHAUTAUQUAN, October 1885, pg. 338. (Periodicals Contents Index) "Country Club Life," CHAUTAUQUAN, Oct. 1888, pg. 601. (Periodicals Contents Index) "Evolution of the Country Club," HARPER'S NEW MONTHLY MAGAZINE, December 1894, pg. 16. From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Sun Aug 1 13:30:08 1999 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (TERRY IRONS) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 09:30:08 -0400 Subject: NPR Talk Message-ID: I sometimes listen to the new show "Talk of the Nation," especially science friday's. It's more palatable One day this week, in a discussion of world population, the announcer said "resources" with the [s] --> [z]. It is predictable as intervocalic voicing, but it struck me as odd, especially as stress seemed to be more on the second syllable. I generally say [risors at z], with stress I think on syllable one. Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon? How widespread is this pattern of voicing? Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 2 01:39:50 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 21:39:50 EDT Subject: Slay trader; Casino mentality; Tulips Message-ID: The NEW YORK POST, 31 July 1999, pp. 4-5: "'SLAY TRADER' AIMED TO SETTLE ACCOUNTS." Eek--sounds like a slasher pic at the multiplex. The NEW YORK TIMES, 1 August 1999, Section 1, pg. 16, cols. 1-2: "Casino Mentality" Linked To Day Trading's Stresses The earliest "casino mentality" on Usenet was 2-22-98. The following was on CNNfn, 13 June 1996, and is on their web site: It's what market watchers call a "casino mentality"--the attitude that the stock market is a giant crap table where fast money is easy picking. The same mentality is even riskier when investors become dissatisfied with even 100 or 200 percent returns on investment. A future RHHDAS should have something about "tulips"--stocks that have been bid up by speculators convinced they can trade the shares to someone else an hour later for a fat profit. The Day Trading lingo keeps on coming... From pulliam at IIT.EDU Mon Aug 2 03:44:31 1999 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 22:44:31 -0500 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At this moment my 17-year-old stepdaughter and my 9-year-old son (who have lived in Chicago for six years) are arguing with my 14-year-old stepson (who has lived in Pittsburgh for two years) and a 17-year-old family friend (who grew up in Boston). The issue: is the card game "Go Fish!" as believed fervently by the former, or "Goldfish!" as embraced just as strongly by the latter? I have told them that it is likely that they are both right, but that I would submit the question to this list for confirmation or denial. It looks like _Goldfish_ is an eastern phenomenon, while _Go Fish_ is the midwestern version, but is this really the case? We have just begun a weeklong stay together on Drummond Island, MI, so we will all be looking forward anxiously to hearing from those of you who care to respond, or who have time to respond. Thank you! - Greg From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 2 00:35:20 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:35:20 EDT Subject: "The man who dies rich dies in disgrace" (continued) Message-ID: In today's NEW YORK POST, 1 August 1999, pg. 7, is: GATE$: MY DOUGH WILL GO BEFORE I LOG OFF (Box) "The man who dies rich dies in disgrace." ANDREW CARNEGIE The richest man in the world is giving almost all of it away. Microsoft founder Bill Gates and his wife plan to devote most of their $105 billion fortune to wiping out deadly diseases such as AIDS and malaria, the Sunday Times of London reported today. (...) But Gates, a self-made man, has read Andrew Carnegie's "The Gospel of Truth" several times and loves the quote, "The man who dies rich dies in disgrace." The story is taken from Sunday's Times of London, which is at: www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Times/frontpage.html?999. Check the ADS-L archives. I made a posting here on 2 December 1997, quoting the 11 March 1906 WASHINGTON POST that had Carnegie denying he ever said this. I found this using Historical Newspapers Online, from the NEW YORK TIMES, 30 March 1905, pg. 2, col. 1: _Denies a Famous Saying_ "In what I am now doing (giving money to colleges and libraries--ed.) I find supreme satisfaction. I know of no pleasure in life which for me is compatable to creating a library which is not mine when created, but belongs to the people. A library is a cradle of democracy. I never said that to die rich is to die disgraced. What I did say was much more sensible and much nearer the truth. Some time we will discuss that if it interests you." So there you have it. Carnegie really said that it's a disgrace not to give your billions to something like a library that contains something like the Dictionary of American Regional English. E-mail Gates at once! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 2 00:16:47 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:16:47 EDT Subject: AMERICAN BUSINESS JARGON by W. Davis Folsom Message-ID: In today's (1 August 1999) New York Times, Business Section, pg. 6, col. 5, is "Counting Coinages In Jargon." The article gives free advertisement to "a modest jargon Web site, www.duesouth.net/~dfolsom," by W. Davis Folsom, a business professor at the University of South Carolina-Aiken. He wrote UNDERSTANDING AMERICAN BUSINESS JARGON: A DICTIONARY in 1997, but has recently updated it with more than 500 terms. I looked at the terms on his "modest" site--many of the terms have appeared in ATNW, and many are terms I've worked on ("Big Board," for example). I don't think he's an ADS member--must be the $35 dues. He probably hasn't even heard of the ADS, or me. It's embarrassing to introduce him to what he's missing... From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Sun Aug 1 14:08:58 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 09:08:58 -0500 Subject: Ooops! Message-ID: I enjoyed your item; however, for the benefit of non-English majors, "nunnery" in those anti-Roman Catholic days was a reference to a house of ill repute. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Salovesh To: Sent: Saturday, July 31, 1999 1:23 AM Subject: Ooops! > Earlier this evening, I was putting away some freshly-done laundry in > our bedroom. I turned the alarm clock radio on to our local NPR outlet > to fill the silence. I came in at the start of a program called > "Marketplace", which usually is the home of corporate puff pieces and > other business "news". For me, it's a close call which is preferable: > Marketplace or dead silence. > > I'm glad I left the radio on this time. > > They broadcast a short bit of alleged information about travel, > announced by somebody introduced as "Mr. Savvy". I'll try to quote his > beginning: > > "Shakespeare got it right when he said 'get thee to a nunnery'. > Travelers to Italy report that there are a number of convents and > monasteries that provide > excellent tourist accommodations. Their low prices make them a great > bargain." > > Mr. Savvy may not know much about Shakespeare, but he is one hell of a > comic. > I started laughing so hard that I had to give up on the laundry sorting. > > It sure was a perfect demonstration of why people should forget the crib > sheets and read both the full text and the footnotes. > > -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From rkm at SLIP.NET Mon Aug 2 06:14:26 1999 From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 23:14:26 -0700 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It was Go Fish when I grew up in NYC, so I'm not sure about your East Coast vs. Midwest conclusion. Rima From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Mon Aug 2 07:31:28 1999 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 02:31:28 -0500 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! Message-ID: Greg Pulliam wrote: > > At this moment my 17-year-old stepdaughter and my 9-year-old son (who > have lived in Chicago for six years) are arguing with my 14-year-old > stepson (who has lived in Pittsburgh for two years) and a 17-year-old > family friend (who grew up in Boston). The issue: is the card game > "Go Fish!" as believed fervently by the former, or "Goldfish!" as > embraced just as strongly by the latter? > > I have told them that it is likely that they are both right, but that > I would submit the question to this list for confirmation or denial. > It looks like _Goldfish_ is an eastern phenomenon, while _Go Fish_ is > the midwestern version, but is this really the case? Greg: My answer is based on an extensive, or even exhaustive, study of families with experience of the game. Interviews included both discussions with and observations of interacton networks centered successively on each family member. (Let me add that I did not undertake this study lightly, much less voluntarily. Our two sons forced me into playing the game almost past the point of endurance. Teaching them to play gin rummy alleviated the problem to some extent, but the eventual cure required introducing them to poker before their agemates learned that poker is a game of skill, not chance.) I tried to develop my data into a more general article ("Non-Euclidean parallels DO intersect: pish/fish and pish/piss", Salovesh n.d.), but as our sons grew up they forced my concerns to shift to other topics. I showed a preliminary draft of what I had to colleagues. When they pointed out the possibility that my survey suffered from a methodological weakness, I put the project aside and hve not been able to return to it. (Their suggestion was that critical readers might feel more comfortable if my sample of families had an n > 1. Unfortunately, budgetary consolidation ruled out the possibility of a grant to finance either a second spouse/auxiliary concubine or a suitable number of children to adopt.) FWIW, and on the basis of my limited sample, I believe that your hypothesis may well have some grounding in fact. All participants in my sample are Midwestern (Chicago oriented) in residence and affiliation. All of them, without exception, call the game "go fish". None of them ever heard of anyone who knew how to play the game calling it "goldfish". (Most acquaintances of the sample recognize and respond to an abbreviated form, "fish", in place of "go fish".) An older member of the sample has a vague recollection of a similar game known to his grandparents. That game is called "pishe paysha". Considered in isolation, the game's name might be explained as another instance of the initial consonant shift from voiceless bilabial to voiceless dental fricative, as in Latin pater/English father. Further elicitation produced the fact that "pishe paysha" is derived from Yiddish. The apparent parallelism in the initial consonants of Yiddish pishe/English fish to Latin pisces/english fish can only be viewed as accidental, not systematic. The proof is found in the second element of Yiddish "gefilte fish", a term which antedates by far the relatively recent "pishe paysha". (I ignore, for the moment, the dialectal variant "gefulte fisk".) -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From dumasb at UTK.EDU Mon Aug 2 11:39:54 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:39:54 -0400 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All I have ever heard is "Go Fish"! Bethany From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Mon Aug 2 13:33:59 1999 From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:33:59 -0400 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:44 PM 8/1/99 , Greg Pulliam wrote: >I have told them that it is likely that they are both right, but that >I would submit the question to this list for confirmation or denial. >It looks like _Goldfish_ is an eastern phenomenon, while _Go Fish_ is >the midwestern version, but is this really the case? We have just >begun a weeklong stay together on Drummond Island, MI, so we will all >be looking forward anxiously to hearing from those of you who care to >respond, or who have time to respond. I grew up in Connecticut playing "Go fish" and never heard it called "goldfish." Doesn't the name "Go fish" derive from the response one player gives another who has asked the first player for a card from a specific suit ("Got any spades?")? I always took "Go fish" as meaning "I don't have one, you'll have to pull another card ("go fishing") from the pile." -- Evan Morris words1 at word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Mon Aug 2 13:38:23 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:38:23 -0400 Subject: Query: Whole Enchilada Message-ID: This query came into the ADS web site. Please provide whatever assistance you can to the sender. Make sure to send your reply to the address below, not to me, although you may want to carbon copy the list. I have referred the sender to the ADS-L archives for answers to "the whole nine yards," although I guess it couldn't hurt to have that issue addressed directly. I will be conducting a diversity presentation on Slang. I was asked for the origin of "the whole nine yards" and "the whole enchilada". Do you know where I might find that info and the origin of other slang terms? Rod Drumm nyrrod at att.net From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Mon Aug 2 13:53:44 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:53:44 -0400 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! Message-ID: In Delaware, 1950s & 60s: Fish, and Go Fish. Usually, someone with a deck of cards in hand would ask if someone else wanted to play Fish. Central Pennsylvania, 1980s & 90s: Fish. Might have heard phrase Go Fish, but Fish seems to be the dominant usage. My just-finished high school daughter says that both Fish & Go Fish are used. 1961, Dec. pbk. (1956): Rules of Games According to Hoyle, by Richard L. Frey, Crest (Fawcett, Greenwich, Conn.), p. 186, indexes Go Fish, "a simpler form of Authors. . . ." 1962, Feb. pbk (1958): Hoyle's Rules of Games, newly revised and expanded edition, by Albert H. Morehead & Geoffrey mott-Smith, Signet (New American Library, NY), p. 169, indexes Fish, "a simpler form of Authors. . . ." 1963 pbk.: The Official Rules of Card Games, edited by Albert H. Morehead, publisher's 53rd ed., United States Playing Card Company (Cincinnati, OH), p. 217, indexes Go Fish, Fish, Go Fishing, & Authors, noting (in a separate description for Authors) that "Authors is similar to Go Fish, but is often played more seriously." The page heading is Go Fish. [Why not just get them to play the game Michigan, which Morehead notes as being "ideal for groups in which there is no acceptable game known to all members. . . ."?] George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From jrader at M-W.COM Mon Aug 2 10:37:51 1999 From: jrader at M-W.COM (Jim Rader) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:37:51 +0000 Subject: Jaywalking Message-ID: Eric Hamp's middle name is "Pratt," not "Peter." He's a man who likes precise detail, so I feel bound to stick my nose in and correct this one. Eric's parents were British--I believe they emigrated when he was a small child--and he used to sprinkle his speech with carefully preserved Briticisms, one of them being his pronunciation of _schedule_. JIm Rader > Dear Ron: > > I'm glad to be in company with you and Eric Hamp on this one. > > It's lucky my memory of our family's folk etymology for "jaywalk" > antedates, by some years, the first course I took in linguistics back in > 1955. The professor was . . . Eric Peter Hamp. > > By 1955, I no longer had much opportunity to discuss word derivations > with my parents, and Eric didn't happen to mention "his" etymology of > jaywalking back then. > > I was not aware of your comments, or Eric's, in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY > (1955) until you cited them in your message. > > That's just to point out that you now have evidence for *three* > independent inventions of the J-curve etymology for jaywalking. > > -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! > > P.S.: Early in that Intro to Linguistics course, I was impressed by > Eric's citation of variations in Latin "centum" (the lines dividing > kentum, sentum, > chentum) in support of his pronunciation of Celtic, beginning with /k/. > I would have taken him as a model for all things etymological if it > weren't for his way of saying "schedule". His initial sh directly > contradicted the initial /k/ he claimed as the only proper way to > pronounce Celtic. > > I decided to stick to my own sprachgefuhl from then on. When anyone > objects, I irrelevantly refer to Chomsky's (later !) dictum about the > native speaker being the only dependable judge of the grammaticality of > a sentence. > > I may get things wrong, but at least I don't feel uncomfortable about > it. > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 2 15:04:04 1999 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:04:04 -0400 Subject: Another New Yorker for "Go Fish" In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990802092826.00af8a90@pop.interport.net> Message-ID: the subject line says it all. Larry Horn (b. NYC 1945) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 2 15:02:43 1999 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:02:43 -0700 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! Message-ID: i grew up (in the 40s and 50s) in eastern pennsylvania, and it was strictly Go Fish for me. in the 60s the Harvard Lampoon published a parody of the james bond novels in which a central scene was a card game between the hero and the villain, lacertus alligator. i still recall the thrill when the hero cried out in victory, "Go fish, Lacertus!" arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Mon Aug 2 19:38:36 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:38:36 -0400 Subject: Go Fish! Message-ID: Player A says, "Give me all your [e.g.:] threes", or "Do you have any threes?" If player B has any, s/he must comply, and player A gets to ask for cards of another rank. If not, however, player B says "Go fish!", and player A must "fish" by drawing the top card from the stock pile. If the card drawn is of the rank demanded (here, a three), player A shows it to player B and gets another turn. If not, it's player B's turn. Thus I learned the game* (some rules omitted here), and the name, which makes perfect sense according to these rules. "Gold Fish" must be a mondegreen, from children who have seen goldfish in bowls but have never gone fishing. (Maybe they are also L-vocalizers and final-stop-droppers.) * In the 1950's, probably from my maternal grandmother, b. 1889, NYC. -- Mark From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Aug 2 20:11:37 1999 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:11:37 -0400 Subject: iced tea Message-ID: My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call iced >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called 'ice' tea >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't sell >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. DAE has only iced tea. DA has only iced tea. WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. OED has no reference to either. OEDs has no reference to either. Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. DARE has no reference to either. AmDiDic has no reference to either. Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution for these two terms? Regards, David K. Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 2 20:31:48 1999 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 13:31:48 -0700 Subject: iced tea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can remember seeing "ice tea" on signs when the big espresso (when "expresso" began to be seen around town) craze was booming, at least 12 years ago in Seattle. I'd always assumed it was due to carelessness or ignorance rather than dialectical in nature. As far as pronunciation goes, I can create a difference if I want to, but the pronunciation that comes out for "iced tea" is not what I'd normally use. Instead, the pronunciation for "ice tea" (when trying to say them differently) is what I normally use. Benjamin Barrett gogaku at ix.netcom.com -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Barnhart Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution for these two terms? Regards, David K. Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM Mon Aug 2 15:49:04 1999 From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Enid Pearsons) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:49:04 -0400 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! Message-ID: Go Fish (name of the game -- vigorous primary/primary or secondary/primary stress pattern); "Go fish" or just plain "Fish" for the triumphant command to the other player. Never, never Goldfish, which I assume would have had a primary/secondary stress pattern. This all in Bridgeport, New Britain, and New Haven, Connecticut. ))))))))) Previous Notes Mail (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( To: ADS-L @ LISTSERV.UGA.EDU cc: (bcc: Enid Pearsons/Trade/RandomHouse) From: Arnold Zwicky Date: 08/02/99 11:02 AM Subject: Re: Go(ld) Fish! i grew up (in the 40s and 50s) in eastern pennsylvania, and it was strictly Go Fish for me. in the 60s the Harvard Lampoon published a parody of the james bond novels in which a central scene was a card game between the hero and the villain, lacertus alligator. i still recall the thrill when the hero cried out in victory, "Go fish, Lacertus!" arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From jessie at SIRSI.COM Mon Aug 2 20:38:19 1999 From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:38:19 -0500 Subject: iced tea Message-ID: My gut feeling is that "ice tea" is a southernism, and not something that is written very often; i.e., you go into a restaurant and order "ice tea" (the d and the t becoming indistinguishable). These same people may write it either way, with or without the d. And it seems from Nexis that "iced tea" is the predominate written form. Conversely, if it is a southernism, the d of "iced" is never pronounced, even though the speaker may write it with the d. Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: Barnhart To: Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 3:11 PM Subject: iced tea > My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations > there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. > > > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call > iced > >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called > 'ice' tea > >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't > sell > >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." > >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. > > I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the > dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. > > DAE has only iced tea. > DA has only iced tea. > WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. > OED has no reference to either. > OEDs has no reference to either. > Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. > DARE has no reference to either. > AmDiDic has no reference to either. > > Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea > Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. > > Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution > for these two terms? > > Regards, > David K. Barnhart > barnhart at highlands.com From BBriggs at LATTE.MEMPHIS.EDU Mon Aug 2 20:40:12 1999 From: BBriggs at LATTE.MEMPHIS.EDU (Bonnie Osborn Briggs) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:40:12 -0500 Subject: iced tea Message-ID: In the Mid-South you will generally hear "ice tea". You even see it on menus. Then if you ask for ice tea, you have to say whether you want sweet tea or not. Sweet tea already has sugar or artificial sweeteners added. BB Barn hart wrote: > > My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations > there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. > > > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call > iced > >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called > 'ice' tea > >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't > sell > >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." > >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. > > I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the > dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. > > DAE has only iced tea. > DA has only iced tea. > WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. > OED has no reference to either. > OEDs has no reference to either. > Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. > DARE has no reference to either. > AmDiDic has no reference to either. > > Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea > Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. > > Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution > for these two terms? > > Regards, > David K. Barnhart > barnhart at highlands.com From pulliam at IIT.EDU Mon Aug 2 17:28:09 1999 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 13:28:09 -0400 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! In-Reply-To: <37A5A2E8.EA17C251@ark.ship.edu> Message-ID: Thank you all for the help! - Greg From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 2 22:03:41 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:03:41 PDT Subject: (ice(d)) tea Message-ID: I assume we're talking about spelling here. (I don't think anyone in normal speech would distinguish 'ice tea' from 'iced tea'). I agree that "ice tea" is something I've only seen written in the South. Besides "sweet tea" we must consider "hot tea". I feel that in most Southern areas if you ask for "tea" it will come ice or iced -- cold, in any case. If you wanted hot tea you would generally have to say so. I think that is what underlies the writing of "ice tea". Since the compound is not native to the dialect, they would have no problem writing it either way. And MAYBE "ice" vs. "hot" seems like a better opposed pair than "iced" vs. "hot". Or maybe some rule of economy prefers to hear "ice". Also, what about "ice water" -- it somehow seems different to me (a Northerner). I would no sooner write "iced water" than "ice tea". Well, maybe a little bit sooner. DEJ _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM Mon Aug 2 22:19:17 1999 From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Enid Pearsons) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 18:19:17 -0400 Subject: iced tea Message-ID: It's not limited to the South. "Ice tea" exists on restaurant menus and restaurant and supermarket signs all over New York City. The wedding of /d/ and /t/ seems a reasonable explanation until you also notice the proliferation of "can soda," "can milk," "butter roll," and other examples that do not come so readily to mind. My personal favorite is "lady shoes," which does have a phonological explanation. But I can't shake the image. ))))))))) Previous Notes Mail (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( To: ADS-L @ LISTSERV.UGA.EDU cc: (bcc: Enid Pearsons/Trade/RandomHouse) From: Jessie Emerson Date: 08/02/99 04:38 PM Subject: Re: iced tea My gut feeling is that "ice tea" is a southernism, and not something that is written very often; i.e., you go into a restaurant and order "ice tea" (the d and the t becoming indistinguishable). These same people may write it either way, with or without the d. And it seems from Nexis that "iced tea" is the predominate written form. Conversely, if it is a southernism, the d of "iced" is never pronounced, even though the speaker may write it with the d. Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: Barnhart To: Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 3:11 PM Subject: iced tea > My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations > there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. > > > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call > iced > >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called > 'ice' tea > >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't > sell > >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." > >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. > > I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the > dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. > > DAE has only iced tea. > DA has only iced tea. > WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. > OED has no reference to either. > OEDs has no reference to either. > Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. > DARE has no reference to either. > AmDiDic has no reference to either. > > Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea > Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. > > Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution > for these two terms? > > Regards, > David K. Barnhart > barnhart at highlands.com From emckean at VERBATIMMAG.COM Mon Aug 2 22:43:45 1999 From: emckean at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 17:43:45 -0500 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting In-Reply-To: <199908022220.SAA02185@interlock.randomhouse.com> Message-ID: I recoiled today (not in horror, not exactly sure in what) as I carefully made little stars in ballpoint pen to give emphasis to the word "really" in a casual note to my sister. That's right; I wrote "*really*" in a note instead of underlining it. Either I'm spending too much time writing email, or I've reverted to 14 years of age (although I didn't dot any i's with stars or hearts). Anyone else noticing email conventions (like emoticons) dribbling into handwriting or typescript? You don't have to admit it if you've done it. I can carry my shame alone. Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com PS I've also seen "ice tea"-- usually in menu-ese. And despite the proliferation of "southern style" restaurants here in the Midwest I still ask for "sweet tea" in vain. From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Mon Aug 2 22:36:20 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:36:20 -0700 Subject: Off-Topic: NPR Blechs (was Ooops!) Message-ID: Evan Morris wrote: > > > About 3 years ago I spent some time trying to figure out why NPR annoyed me > so much, and I realized that it was (aside from their inexplicable and > undeserved reputation for "depth") something I can only call the "NPR > simper." It's that cloying, pedantic sing-song all their newsreaders > affect, addressing the audience as if it were composed of intelligent but > recalcitrant children. I believe Susan Stamberg invented it, but the last > time I listened to an NPR newscast, _every single one_ of their > "personalities" was speaking in that smarmy sing-song. Listen for it -- > it'll make you want to drop-kick your radio out the nearest window. I noticed this tonality too. I figured they all were trained specifically to talk like that. Mind you, BBC reporters also have a particular song. Even Monty Python would mimic this song when doing mock news reporting; unfortunately that's where I heard it first, and have trouble taking the BBC reporters seriously sometimes. BTW, my husband can't stand Terry Gross of Fresh Air. Unfortunately she comes on when we're listening to the radio in the morning. It's enough to get us into work earlier! > > BBC World Service, Radio Netherlands and Radio Canada Intl. are all > excellent. My satellite system (we're too far out in the boonies for > cable) carries the BBC America TV channel, which is mostly rubbish, but the > daily evening newscast is everything US TV news is not -- just news, no > swooping graphics, no majestic theme music. There's more news in one BBC > half-hour than there is in a week of NBC, CBS, CNN, etc. Our local public TV station gives us BBC World News from 6-7 PM. Plus a fair amount of BBC programming. Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 2 22:48:29 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:48:29 PDT Subject: iced tea -- trying to save my theory Message-ID: "Ice tea" is written by non-native speakers of English in NYC. The same explanation applies for them as for Southerners, to whom the language is native but the compound is not... On thin ice(d), DEJ >From: Enid Pearsons >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: iced tea >Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 18:19:17 -0400 > >It's not limited to the South. "Ice tea" exists on restaurant menus and >restaurant and supermarket signs all over New York City. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU Mon Aug 2 23:25:39 1999 From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:25:39 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have seen emoticons, mainly the :) emoticon, being written. And I know someone who, upon, realizing that someone is teasing him, will say "colon p" - the appropriate emoticon to use in that situation. :P Johanna Franklin Excerpts from mail: 2-Aug-99 Email conventions seeping i.. by Erin McKean at VERBATIMMAG. > >Anyone else noticing email conventions (like emoticons) dribbling into >handwriting or typescript? You don't have to admit it if you've done it. I >can carry my shame alone. From LJT777 at AOL.COM Mon Aug 2 23:57:19 1999 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (Lindsie Tucker) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:57:19 EDT Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting Message-ID: My sense is that using the smiling face to indicate humor predates the "emoticon" by quite some time. At least I have used it in lieu of something lame like "ha ha" for a number of years. I recently found myself saying BRB to someone who is also very familiar with internet jargon, abbreviations, etc. As I said it, we looked at each other and grimaced! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 3 00:56:16 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:56:16 EDT Subject: Fwd: Historical Newspaper Index Sources Message-ID: For whatever it's worth, this is what this is. You can get it on your home computer for free. --Barry Popik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Va_ROOM at FCPL.CO.FAIRFAX.VA.US (Va ROOM) Subject: Fwd: Historical Newspaper Index Sources Date: 2 Aug 99 18:21 +0000 Size: 2066 URL: From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 3 01:44:11 1999 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:44:11 -0400 Subject: iced tea In-Reply-To: <199908022220.SAA02185@interlock.randomhouse.com> Message-ID: Nobody in this discussion (unless it escaped my notice) brought up the parallel with "ice cream". This was a shibboleth for prescriptivists in the 19th century (sorry I don't have the relevant dates or publications--Dennis Baron probably does) who insisted that the only logical spelling, and presumably pronunciation, was "iced cream". I see the gradual penetration of "ice tea" as following a similar route, even if "iced tea" is still the prevailing written form. Notice too that with "ice(d) cream" there would have been less of a phonological motivation for the reanalysis. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 3 01:49:22 1999 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:49:22 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting In-Reply-To: <9b80b36a.24d78a5f@aol.com> Message-ID: At 7:57 PM -0400 8/2/99, LJT777 at AOL.COM wrote: >My sense is that using the smiling face to indicate humor predates the >"emoticon" by quite some time. But a SIDEways smiley face :) ? From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Aug 3 02:32:11 1999 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:32:11 -0700 Subject: iced tea In-Reply-To: <023401bedd26$f4973ac0$a0eaa6ce@sirsi.com> Message-ID: Not necessarily a southernism. I've always refered to it as "ice tea" and have always heard it pronounced that way, although I've seen "iced" and "ice tea" in print, but have no idea which predominates--at least in the Pacific Northwest. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Jessie Emerson wrote: > My gut feeling is that "ice tea" is a southernism, and not something that is > written very often; i.e., you go into a restaurant and order "ice tea" (the > d and the t becoming indistinguishable). These same people may write it > either way, with or without the d. And it seems from Nexis that "iced tea" > is the predominate written form. > > Conversely, if it is a southernism, the d of "iced" is never pronounced, > even though the speaker may write it with the d. > > Jessie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Barnhart > To: > Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 3:11 PM > Subject: iced tea > > > > My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations > > there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. > > > > > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call > > iced > > >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called > > 'ice' tea > > >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't > > sell > > >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." > > >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. > > > > I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the > > dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. > > > > DAE has only iced tea. > > DA has only iced tea. > > WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. > > OED has no reference to either. > > OEDs has no reference to either. > > Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. > > DARE has no reference to either. > > AmDiDic has no reference to either. > > > > Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea > > Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. > > > > Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution > > for these two terms? > > > > Regards, > > David K. Barnhart > > barnhart at highlands.com > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 3 05:17:48 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 01:17:48 EDT Subject: "Under dog" at Yale, 1871 (a "dog day" etymology) Message-ID: BDE has 1887 for "underdog." The Making of America database shows this from the 1870s. Lyman Hotchkiss Bagg's FOUR YEARS AT YALE (1871) has "the under dog in the fight" on page 81. "The under-dog in the fight" is also in OVERLAND MONTHLY AND OUT WEST MAGAZINE, June 1872, pg. 520. "...the public...valiantly sides with the under dog, otherwise the artist" is in APPLETONS' MAGAZINE, 8 August 1879, pg. 189, col. 2. A "dog day" etymology. From gjxy at MAIL.SHISU.EDU.CN Tue Aug 3 00:12:02 1999 From: gjxy at MAIL.SHISU.EDU.CN (gjxy) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:12:02 +0800 Subject: »Ø¸´: Re: iced tea Message-ID: Prof.Benjamin, The "ice tea"--"iced tea" is like the"go fish"--"gold fish" , is it? |My gut feeling is that "ice tea" is a southernism, and not something that is |written very often; i.e., you go into a restaurant and order "ice tea" (the |d and the t becoming indistinguishable). These same people may write it |either way, with or without the d. And it seems from Nexis that "iced tea" |is the predominate written form. | |Conversely, if it is a southernism, the d of "iced" is never pronounced, |even though the speaker may write it with the d. | |Jessie |----- Original Message ----- |From: Barnhart |To: |Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 3:11 PM |Subject: iced tea | | |> My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations |> there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. |> |> > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call |> iced |> >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called |> 'ice' tea |> >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't |> sell |> >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." |> >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. |> |> I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the |> dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. |> |> DAE has only iced tea. |> DA has only iced tea. |> WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. |> OED has no reference to either. |> OEDs has no reference to either. |> Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. |> DARE has no reference to either. |> AmDiDic has no reference to either. |> |> Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea |> Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. |> |> Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution |> for these two terms? |> |> Regards, |> David K. Barnhart |> barnhart at highlands.com From rkm at SLIP.NET Tue Aug 3 05:59:28 1999 From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:59:28 -0700 Subject: iced tea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Nobody in this discussion (unless it escaped my notice) brought up the >parallel with "ice cream". Nor has anyone brought up "shave ice" (Hawaii). Rima From bkgood at PACBELL.NET Tue Aug 3 06:23:41 1999 From: bkgood at PACBELL.NET (Brian Good) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:23:41 -0700 Subject: As many (as possible) Message-ID: I don't recall ever hearing or seeing this omission before, but now I have come across it three times in the past month or so. The speaker says "as many" while leaving off the "as possible" part. It really sticks out for me because it sort of grates on my nerves.... I'm left to complete the "as possible" in my head. Here's where I've heard/seen it: McSweeney's Internet Tendency, "Four Dreams of Gergen," by Paul Maliszewski: http://www.mcsweeneys.net/1999/06/14dreams.html "...Lewis Lapham appears. He says, Provide as many correct and acceptable spellings of the leader of Libya." On a plane before takeoff (repeated twice!): "In order to help conserve overhead bin space, please put as many bags under the seat in front of you." On a radio station in Seattle: "We're trying to get as many people to call in and tell us about their favorite movies." Is this a new trend or have I just never noticed it before? Is there someone on some TV show who has started speaking this way? Brian From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Tue Aug 3 09:15:14 1999 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 04:15:14 -0500 Subject: 1)E.P.Hamp; 2)Go(ld) Fish! Message-ID: I might as well throw in two apologies in one message. 1) Re Eric P. Hamp: Sorry, creating "Peter" as Eric's middle name is a family joke, and I forgot where it came from. I have been reminded, forcefully, by Peggy Salovesh, who had the bad luck to marry me a long time ago. I was much luckier: I married her. Once upon a long time ago, Peggy worked with/for Eric Hamp when he was in charge of implementing the linguistics part of CIC. CIC? The Committee on Institutional Cooperation, an arrangement among the Big Ten universities and The University of Chicago. Under CIC, students at any of the eleven universities could arrange to register at their home institutions, paying their normal tuition, while taking courses at one of the others. Consent of both departments, and of the specific professors whose courses or supervision were sought by the non-local student, was a necessary step. Peggy's job included finding out what linguistics courses were housed where at each university, who taught them, what kinds of special knowledge existed among those professors, what special facilities might be available for linguistics work, and the like, and then finding a means of summarizing all the information in a form that would make sense to a student looking for special training and to faculty members trying to figure out what was going on beyond their own campuses. (Yeah, I know. Six-line sentences are a bad idea. I couldn't resist letting the structure of my sentence/paragraph reflect what kind of hectic task the job was.) There was a very strict deadline involved, and a tremendous amount of work to be done as the deadline approached. Peggy and Eric got the job done, copied, and sent where it was supposed to go on time for its Monday deadline -- but they had to recruit their spouses to do it. The last stages sure as hell strained four people in two households that weekend. On Monday, Peggy dragged herself back to her day job as administrative secretary in the office of the Dean of the Humanities Division at the U of Chicago. Bright and early, Eric came bouncing in, brimful of his usual energy. At supper that night, Peggy commented on the contrast: "There I was, all petered out, and Eric actually looked refreshed after all that work over the weekend." I said something about it being obvious that Eric was all petered in, and one thing led to another: ever afterward, Eric was Petered in in our minds. Hence Eric Peter Hamp. I told you, family joke, and my mistake for slipping it into a message to ADS-L. 2) The utter pedantry of what I said about Go(ld) Fish! was self-satire run wild. Worse yet, I did it on purpose. I thought it was hilarious at the time. (That probably is one of the side effects of my new medications.) The only serious part of what I said was the part about the Midwesternness of our family and the fact that we, and our acquaintances, and our kids' friends, called the game "Go fish!", alternating with "Fish". Sorry about that. ========== Talking about "Go(ld) Fish!" last night, Peggy came up with an idea of a possible source. When our kids were quite young, both liked to snack on a kind of cracker called "goldfish" -- which they pronounced "go'fish". As they started to teach themselves to read (before kindergarten), we handed each of them a book whose title I remember as "ABCD Goldfish". It builds on the exchange "ABCD Goldfish?" "LMNO Goldfish!" "OSAR . . . ". Translation, provided because I didn't give one for Shakespeare's "nunnery": "Abie, see the goldfish?" "Hell, them ain't no goldfish!" "Oh, yes they are." I don't remember if the children's book, as such, picked up the LMNO part or left it out. I'm quite sure that in our house we always included it anyhow. When one of our kids came up with "NDC" as the place to CD Goldfish, that line, too, became part of our family tradition. The book made our older son give up his "go'fish" pronunciation, in exchange for a clearly articulated "gold fish" (with double plus juncture, at that.) So maybe calling the card game "Goldfish" could be a case of overgeneralizing the same correction beyond where it would be appropriate. Call it some kind of hyperurbanism or some other artifact of language learning. Could this whole thread be based on what was originally an error becoming a local tradition? -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Tue Aug 3 09:44:04 1999 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 05:44:04 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Erin McKean To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Date: Monday, August 02, 1999 6:44 PM Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting >Anyone else noticing email conventions (like emoticons) dribbling into >handwriting or typescript? You don't have to admit it if you've done it. I >can carry my shame alone. I have done it myself. My completely arbitrary rule of thumb is, if you have more than three email addresses, you may longhand email conventions with impunity. Of course, geek poseur that I am, I did it back when I only had a fidonet address. Bruce From jeclapp at WANS.NET Tue Aug 3 06:24:35 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 02:24:35 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > > But a SIDEways smiley face :) ? I sure wish I could put my hands on the column Dave Barry wrote about emoticons for a computer magazine. He was very enthusiastic about them. For example, he pointed out (and unfortunately I can only paraphrase, but this is my best recollection), that if somebody writes, say, Six million Jews perished in the holocaust :( then by simply rotating the page clockwise a quarter turn you can immediately see that the writer thinks this is a sad thing. James E. Clapp From vneufeldt at M-W.COM Tue Aug 3 12:02:27 1999 From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:02:27 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting In-Reply-To: <0rdWXnO00Ui20791o0@andrew.cmu.edu> Message-ID: Please, WHAT does ':P' mean? Victoria (who has never yet - blush - used an emoticon in her e-mails) Victoria Neufeldt, Merriam-Webster, Inc. 47 Federal Street, P.O. Box 281 Springfield, MA 01102 Tel. (413) 734-3134 ext 124 Fax (413) 827-7262 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Johanna N Franklin > Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 7:26 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Email conventions seeping into handwriting > > > I have seen emoticons, mainly the :) emoticon, being written. > > And I know someone who, upon, realizing that someone is teasing him, > will say "colon p" - the appropriate emoticon to use in that situation. > :P > > Johanna Franklin > > Excerpts from mail: 2-Aug-99 Email conventions seeping i.. by Erin > McKean at VERBATIMMAG. > > > >Anyone else noticing email conventions (like emoticons) dribbling into > >handwriting or typescript? You don't have to admit it if you've > done it. I > >can carry my shame alone. > From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU Tue Aug 3 13:59:54 1999 From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:59:54 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting In-Reply-To: <000101bedda8$0e7efc80$282b62ce@mw040.m-w.com> Message-ID: This is kind of hard to explain. It's meant to look like a person sticking out his or her tongue... It might be used to respond to a teasing remark, e.g. Typist 1: You know, you sitting there and screaming at ESPN's game update online won't help your team win... Typist 2: Hmmmmph. :P Typist 1: :) Johanna, who has had exactly this exchange online before... Excerpts from mail: 3-Aug-99 Re: Email conventions seepi.. by Victoria Neufeldt at M-W.CO > Please, WHAT does ':P' mean? > Excerpts from mail: 3-Aug-99 Re: Email conventions seepi.. by Victoria Neufeldt at M-W.CO >> >> And I know someone who, upon, realizing that someone is teasing him, >> will say "colon p" - the appropriate emoticon to use in that situation. >> :P >> From pulliam at IIT.EDU Tue Aug 3 03:37:52 1999 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:37:52 -0400 Subject: iced tea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't > >sell his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. Was the Indian tea merchant named Tada Dhorghani by any chance? Wonder if we might have another Popik-debunkable myth here. - Greg From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Tue Aug 3 17:02:28 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:02:28 -0700 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting Message-ID: Why is it that I live and work amongst a high concentration of computer nerds, particularly of the email variety, and I have never: seen anyone write an email convention by hand, or heard anyone speak an email convention? Who are the folks who are doing this? Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU Tue Aug 3 17:20:05 1999 From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:20:05 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting In-Reply-To: <37A720A4.1CE43C39@eng.sun.com> Message-ID: The ones that I know are mainly engineering and science undergraduates who tend to use e-mail and chat sessions to communicate much more than handwritten communication. It becomes second nature to start writing computer abbreviations and drawing emoticons by hand. That's much more common than speaking e-mail conventions. I don't know very many people who do that. Johanna, who is guilty of both on occasion Excerpts from mail: 3-Aug-99 Re: Email conventions seepi.. by "A. Vine"@ENG.SUN.COM > Why is it that I live and work amongst a high concentration of computer nerds, > > particularly of the email variety, and I have never: > > seen anyone write an email convention by hand, or > heard anyone speak an email convention? > > Who are the folks who are doing this? > From tgebhart at MADISON.K12.WI.US Tue Aug 3 17:25:51 1999 From: tgebhart at MADISON.K12.WI.US (thomas gebhart) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:25:51 -0500 Subject: iced tea Message-ID: I don't know about either ice or iced tea being a "southernism" -- but it doesn't appear to be predominant in my father's family's areas of Alabama. Tea that isn't in a cup and isn't hot is _sweet tea_. When offered "tea" without a qualifier in northern AL or in Montgomery, the question, "Ice(d) tea?" gets you "Yes Ma'am, sweet tea." Beth Simon Assistant Professor, Linguistics and English Indiana University Purdue University simon at ipfw.edu "A. Maberry" wrote: > Not necessarily a southernism. I've always refered to it as "ice tea" and > have always heard it pronounced that way, although I've seen "iced" and > "ice tea" in print, but have no idea which predominates--at least in the > Pacific Northwest. > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu > > On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Jessie Emerson wrote: > > > My gut feeling is that "ice tea" is a southernism, and not something that is > > written very often; i.e., you go into a restaurant and order "ice tea" (the > > d and the t becoming indistinguishable). These same people may write it > > either way, with or without the d. And it seems from Nexis that "iced tea" > > is the predominate written form. > > > > Conversely, if it is a southernism, the d of "iced" is never pronounced, > > even though the speaker may write it with the d. > > > > Jessie > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Barnhart > > To: > > Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 3:11 PM > > Subject: iced tea > > > > > > > My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations > > > there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. > > > > > > > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call > > > iced > > > >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called > > > 'ice' tea > > > >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't > > > sell > > > >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." > > > >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. > > > > > > I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the > > > dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. > > > > > > DAE has only iced tea. > > > DA has only iced tea. > > > WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. > > > OED has no reference to either. > > > OEDs has no reference to either. > > > Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. > > > DARE has no reference to either. > > > AmDiDic has no reference to either. > > > > > > Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea > > > Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. > > > > > > Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution > > > for these two terms? > > > > > > Regards, > > > David K. Barnhart > > > barnhart at highlands.com > > From lmedu at JPS.NET Tue Aug 3 18:23:22 1999 From: lmedu at JPS.NET (Sharon Vaipae) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:23:22 -0700 Subject: iced tea, with milk, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>Nobody in this discussion (unless it escaped my notice) brought up the >>parallel with "ice cream". > >Nor has anyone brought up "shave ice" (Hawaii). > >Rima Is "milk tea" elsewhere than Japan? Have English...Will Travel © The truth shall make you odd. lmedu at jps.net -Flannery O'Conner From jay at DEGRANDIS.COM Tue Aug 3 19:06:06 1999 From: jay at DEGRANDIS.COM (J. M. De Grandis, III) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:06:06 -0400 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! Message-ID: I grew up in central Georgia, where we most definitely said, "Go Fish!" Freinds from North Carolina also use "Go Fish!" as does my fiance (south east MO). Greg Pulliam wrote: > The issue: is the card game > "Go Fish!" as believed fervently by the former, or "Goldfish!" as > embraced just as strongly by the latter? > > I have told them that it is likely that they are both right, but that > I would submit the question to this list for confirmation or denial. > It looks like _Goldfish_ is an eastern phenomenon, while _Go Fish_ is > the midwestern version, but is this really the case? -- Emancipate yourself from mental slavery None but ourselves can free our minds. Uncle Bob Marley J. M. De Grandis, III http://www.degrandis.com/d3 mailto:jay at degrandis.com From dburrell at ICPSR.UMICH.EDU Tue Aug 3 19:33:52 1999 From: dburrell at ICPSR.UMICH.EDU (Dieter Burrell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:33:52 -0400 Subject: iced tea In-Reply-To: <37A7261F.73600AEF@madison.k12.wi.us> Message-ID: And sweet tea is the default if you do order 'ice tea,' at least in eastern Georgia and western South Carolina. Only if requested could someone possibly receive unsweetened tea. Dieter Burrell ICPSR At 12:25 PM 8/3/1999 -0500, you wrote: >I don't know about either ice or iced tea being a "southernism" -- but it doesn't >appear to be predominant in my father's family's areas of Alabama. Tea that isn't >in a cup and isn't hot is _sweet tea_. When offered "tea" without a qualifier in >northern AL or in Montgomery, the question, "Ice(d) tea?" gets you "Yes Ma'am, >sweet tea." > >Beth Simon >Assistant Professor, Linguistics and English >Indiana University Purdue University >simon at ipfw.edu From GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA Tue Aug 3 22:09:24 1999 From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA (No Name Available) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:09:24 PDT Subject: NPR Talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Terry: Re "resources." Maybe the announcer was an expatriate Canuck - certainly I've never heard (or said) it any other way but /rIzors at s/ with the stress on the second syllable, and that's the first pronunciation given in the Gage Canadian Dictionary (1997), though it's second in Webster. The /risors/ one is third in Gage. Barbara Harris University of Victoria Victoria, B.C. CANADA From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU Tue Aug 3 23:30:42 1999 From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:30:42 -0500 Subject: Jay walking; poetry in ASL? In-Reply-To: <199907261407.KAA06720@is2.nyu.edu> Message-ID: I didn't pull the plug on the group when I went on a July vacation and as a result found a considerable layer of detritus at the bottom of my e-mail basket when I returned. Nothing prompted thoughts worth sharing, except these two topics: As a New Yorker, I jay-walk whenever possible. Crossing at the intersection puts you at risk of sudden death; crossing in the middle of the block gives you some chance of seeing what's coming before it gets you. The idea raised by several in the discussion of this term, that jay-walkers move in a curved or crooked line that can be likened to a J, baffles me. Unless I need to enter or leave the roadway between parked cars -- a situation I avoid, it being nearly as dangerous as crossing at the crosswalk -- I cross the street in a straight line, even if an oblique one to the sidewalk. I go with the standard explanation of the "jay" in jay-walking, but I would not define it as indicating a (generalized) ignorant or stupid person but specifically a bumpkin, a farmer, one who crosses the street as if vehicles in the city travel no faster than hay-wagons. The second point is a question: Some years ago, at a university ceremony, I was seated where I could watch the drivel from the podium being translated into ASL. I wondered at the time whether anyone wrote poetry in ASL, with the dancing movement of the hands serving the function of meter and rhyme in oral poetry. Our president's oration sure looked a lot better than it sounded. Nyone familiar with such poetry? GAT From jeclapp at WANS.NET Tue Aug 3 22:52:12 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:52:12 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting Message-ID: A. Vine wrote: > > Why is it that I live and work amongst a high concentration of computer > nerds, particularly of the email variety, and I have never: > > seen anyone write an email convention by hand, or > heard anyone speak an email convention? > > Who are the folks who are doing this? I'm still trying to figure out who uses them in e-mail! I have a two part analysis, in which I reach opposite conclusions about the two basic types of e-mail symbolism: 1. Initialisms: The people who use these are people who never learned to type. For a typist, it's quicker and easier to type "in my opinion" than "IMHO," which requires holding down the shift key while typing four unrelated characters. Of course, there's also an in-group feeling among users (*we* know what this means; the uninitiated will just have to wonder). Initialisms drive me--an uninitiate--nuts, because every time I come upon a new one I have to sit there and work out a puzzle just to figure out what somebody might be trying to say. Often I have to e-mail the initialism to someone more knowledgeable for decrypting. And they call this a form of communication? Of course, usually when I get the translation I realize that the coded phrase was just verbiage anyway. On the other hand, to the extent that these become established and say anything worth saying, the one place that they could actually be useful is in handwritten notes. Not that there are very many of those, anymore; but if, hypothetically, I were writing a note by hand, and, even more hypothetically, thought it necessary to say "in my humble opinion," it'd be easier to write IMHO. 2. Emoticons Of course, Dave Barry got it right: If you know how to write, you generally don't have to use an icon to make it clear how you feel. That's what the writing is for. Several aspects of e-mail, however, make it vulnerable to misunderstanding: It is often off-the-cuff, too brief for nuance, and sent to people who know absolutely nothing about the writer. So as ditzy as emoticons are, they can actually play a useful prophylactic role in e-mail--though I myself still eschew them. No matter how clearly, wildly outrageous you think your comment is, somebody out there will take you seriously if you don't flag it with an emoticon or a -- although this list, which is far more sophisticated than others I'm on, may be an exception: I'm not sure anyone on this list would have taken seriously, as many elsewhere did, the hilarious story being passed around that Microsoft is going to start selling ad space on its error messages. But the features that make such flags useful in anonymous e-mail are seldom present in individual typed or handwritten messages. Most such notes are written to people who know enough about where we stand on the issue being discussed so that we don't have to tip them off about whether we're serious or not. So it is really hard to see why anybody would use them outside of a bulk e-mail context, save as a modish or in-groupy thing to do. James E. Clapp P.S. about this list: I think it significant that emoticons and voguish initialisms are seldom seen here; when you have a group of people who are good with language, they tend to prefer meaningful words to faddish formulas and don't generally have to worry about being misunderstood (not that it can't happen on occasion). I imagine this is typical of lists that attract a lot of academics. Most of the lists I'm on are for lawyers and computer people, and boy, it's a different world out there! P.S. about the world out there, and how easily you can be misunderstood: On one of my lists somebody posted the old saw about the lawyer's child who said his father played the piano in a brothel because he didn't want to admit what his father really did. (To make it clear that the posting was intended for amusement and not an expression of malice toward lawyers, the poster put a after it.) Somebody replied, "So tell us, what did he really do in a brothel?" A fairly clever joke on a joke, right? But I guess he should have included a winking or grinning emoticon, because somebody then wrote in to explain the original posting to him: It was a joke, see; the father wasn't *really* in a brothel, he was *really* a lawyer; the kid just *said* he worked in a brothel because [etc.]. (The explanation concluded: "Kudos to whomever the original poster was.") The person who (or should I say whom) had posted the joke on the joke finally wrote back and said (either forlornly or wryly--I couldn't tell which because there was no emoticon), "That was a joke, too, but some didn't get it, I guess." From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Wed Aug 4 00:24:01 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:24:01 -0400 Subject: Jay walking; poetry in ASL? Message-ID: On mardi 3 ao�t 1999, GEORGE THOMPSON wrote: > As a New Yorker, I jay-walk whenever possible. Crossing at the >intersection puts you at risk of sudden death; crossing in the >middle of the block gives you some chance of seeing what's coming >before it gets you. The idea raised by several in the discussion of >this term, that jay-walkers move in a curved or crooked line that can >be likened to a J, baffles me. Unless I need to enter or leave the >roadway between parked cars -- a situation I avoid, it being nearly >as dangerous as crossing at the crosswalk -- I cross the street in a >straight line, even if an oblique one to the sidewalk. Now then, Mr. Thompson. I do hope you'll pardon me, but as a fellow New Yorker, I find that I do cross the street in the form of a J, although I have some doubts about its status as etymological evidence. Here's how it happens: You're in a hurry. You're just past the middle of the block, probably on a wide one-way avenue, probably walking downstream with traffic. (Nobody ever does a true J on a some rinky-dink lane). You have to cross the street, but the crosswalk says Walk before you get there. So you step off the curb, not quite to the corner, not quite in the middle of the block. You begin traversing, but cars that have turned off the cross street are now headed your way. Your life is in danger. You walk just a little faster, but a little taller, too, and you puff out your chest. It's the ostrich effect: you'll look like a bigger animal to the oncoming yellow beasts and maybe they won't attack. You, however, are forced to bend your straight path: the cars that have stampeded past are now in the way. The only easily available path is the crosswalk: except for a little impatient encroaching by revving motorists, it is wide open. You have accomplished your goals: crossed without waiting for another signal, and made a shorter path than a right angle. From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 4 01:37:35 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:37:35 PDT Subject: Canuck Message-ID: >From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA >Terry: >Re "resources." Maybe the announcer was an expatriate Canuck - The AHD has "Offensive Slang. A Canadian, esp. a French Canadian", so I was a bit surprised to see the more generic use here, esp. since in matters of English pronunciation the French Canucks differ noticeably from the rest. Could Barbara Harris, or anyone else, give their thoughts on the current use(s) of the term? (besides "esp. a French", there's the apparent overstatement "offensive slang") And what about improving on the AHD's etymology: "prob. alteration of 'Canadian'"? DEJ P.S. Random House has "Slang (sometimes offensive)", then word-for-word the same definition as AHD, then the rather wondrous etymology "1825-35; perh. ult. to be identified with _kanaka_ 'Hawaiian, South Sea Islander' [literally Hawaiian for 'person'], since both French Canadians and such islanders were employed in the Pacific Northwest fur trade; later reanalyzed as Can[adian] + a suffix" Is it just me, or is that a bit farfetched (literally)? The AHD explanation seems more prob. than the RH's. (Or perh. it's an alteration of the French 'Canadien' -- but only if French Canadians used that word in the early 19th century) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From dsgood at VISI.COM Wed Aug 4 03:59:25 1999 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 22:59:25 -0500 Subject: "coming with" in San Francisco Message-ID: I was reading a mystery set in San Francisco, and came across the dialog "I'm coming with." Which was not what I would expect a middle-class African-American woman in San Francisco to say. The author has lived and worked in San Francisco, and seems to be generally a careful observer. Recently, I learned that the author was born in Minnesota. I suspect he grew up with "coming with", and didn't remember that it's not as natural to San Franciscans as it is to him. Writers who set their fiction in their adopted homes probably make such mistakes _much_ more often than I've noticed. Dan Goodman dsgood at visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Wed Aug 4 07:14:19 1999 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 02:14:19 -0500 Subject: "coming with" in San Francisco Message-ID: Dan Goodman wrote: > Writers who set their fiction in their adopted homes probably make > such mistakes _much_ more often than I've noticed. The problem came up a couple of years ago, at what otherwise was one of the most enjoyable dissertation defenses I've attended. On the way to her doctorate in English, the candidate had done two magnificent jobs. The first was translating _Native Son_ into colloquial Brazilian Portugese. The second task she undertook in the dissertation was to show how Richard Wright represents ways a single black speaker marks, and manipulates, interactions with whites compared with how the same speaker talks black-to-black. This led her to an interesting discussion of the problems facing a translator who wants to convey these subtleties in a language which has dialects that mark social class/social position, but very little dialect variation marking so-called "race". She wrote a beautiful dissertation and did an impressive job all around. I was there as Dean's representative. Our Graduate Dean had asked me to read the dissertation and serve as outside examiner at the defense because I read Portugese and know something about linguistics and translation problems. He didn't realize that I had other relevant knowledge: _Native Son_ is set on Chicago's South Side, and Bigger Thomas kills Mary Dalton at her home in Hyde Park. That's the neighborhood where I grew up. My knowledge of the local scene gave me an excellent chance for pedantic nit-picking that wouldn't raise any substantial problems for the candidate. I took it. I wanted this excellent student to get her degree with the honors her work deserved, and I didn't want to get in her way with anything that might sound like an objection. Without realizing it, I just happened to pick on one of the ways _Native Son_ shows that Wright didn't really know much about Chicago when he wrote the book. I thought it was safe to point to what I thought was a typsetting error in the translation to Portugese, where a Chicago street is called "South Parkway". It's clear that should have been "South Park Way", a subtle but extremely important difference. In the time setting of the novel, South Park Way was the main drag of the South Side extension of Bronzeville, the Chicago black ghetto. Among other things, it was the home of the old Regal Theater, where you went to hear all the great black bands and orchestras, from Duke Ellington to Louis Jordan. When I was growing up, shows at the Regal also featured Redd Foxx, Moms Mabley, Pigmeat Markham, and other legendary performers, but I used to go there to hear the great jazz. The name of the street was always pronounced with juncture marking that it contained three separate words. Nobody who spent any time on that street could possibly have called it "South Parkway", in two words. There was a two word abbreviation, all right, but it was "South Park". At the dissertation defense, the candidate said that she didn't know the street, but she was sure that the book called it South Parkway. That gave everybody a chance to look at something in English, instead of the Portugese translation we were discussing at the time. Sure enough, it was South Parkway in three different editions people had brought with them that day. Score one for the accuracy of the translation, and one down for the picky pedant. (When I read the dissertation, I had checked the translation against a paperback edition -- which had South Parkway. I simply assumed that other editions would have the correct name in three words.) My scholarly reputation was saved by the few old Chicagoans in the room. They confirmed that South Park Way, in THREE short words, was the former name of what is now officially called "The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Memorial Drive". (It has the only street signs in Chicago that need both fine print and several lines to get in the whole name of the street. The short, colloquial version is "King Drive", which appears on signs saying things like "King Drive exit, 3/4 mile".) Only old-timers remember South Park Way today. Obviously, Richard Wright was not a Chicago old-timer when _Native Son_ was published in 1940. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From rwachal at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Wed Aug 4 11:28:52 1999 From: rwachal at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (wachal robert s) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 06:28:52 -0500 Subject: "coming with" in San Francisco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've lived in Minnesoata and it is certainly common there. it's a loan translation from German or a Scandinavian language and hardly likely for someone from SF regardless of race. Bob Wachal On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Dan Goodman wrote: > I was reading a mystery set in San Francisco, and came across the > dialog "I'm coming with." Which was not what I would expect a > middle-class African-American woman in San Francisco to say. The > author has lived and worked in San Francisco, and seems to be > generally a careful observer. > > Recently, I learned that the author was born in Minnesota. I suspect > he grew up with "coming with", and didn't remember that it's not as > natural to San Franciscans as it is to him. > > Writers who set their fiction in their adopted homes probably make > such mistakes _much_ more often than I've noticed. > > Dan Goodman > dsgood at visi.com > http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html > Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. > From rwachal at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Wed Aug 4 11:27:11 1999 From: rwachal at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (wachal robert s) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 06:27:11 -0500 Subject: Canuck In-Reply-To: <19990804013736.90112.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: As i pointed out in a paper I cave at DSNA and which soon may be published, 'Canuck' is not in the least offensive, as Canadian linguists and lay folk have told me. Note the hockey team , the Vancouver Canucks. When PC became a hot button issue, dictionary makers went wholesale calling every nickname offensive apparently without checking the facts. Bob Wachal On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, D. Ezra Johnson wrote: > >From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA > >Terry: > >Re "resources." Maybe the announcer was an expatriate Canuck - > > The AHD has "Offensive Slang. A Canadian, esp. a French Canadian", > so I was a bit surprised to see the more generic use here, esp. since in > matters of English pronunciation the French Canucks differ noticeably from > the rest. > > Could Barbara Harris, or anyone else, give their thoughts on the current > use(s) of the term? (besides "esp. a French", there's the apparent > overstatement "offensive slang") > > And what about improving on the AHD's etymology: "prob. alteration of > 'Canadian'"? > > DEJ > > P.S. Random House has "Slang (sometimes offensive)", then word-for-word the > same definition as AHD, then the rather wondrous etymology > > "1825-35; perh. ult. to be identified with _kanaka_ 'Hawaiian, South Sea > Islander' [literally Hawaiian for 'person'], since both French Canadians and > such islanders were employed in the Pacific Northwest fur trade; later > reanalyzed as Can[adian] + a suffix" > > Is it just me, or is that a bit farfetched (literally)? > The AHD explanation seems more prob. than the RH's. > > (Or perh. it's an alteration of the French 'Canadien' -- but only if French > Canadians used that word in the early 19th century) > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > From jrader at M-W.COM Wed Aug 4 10:04:17 1999 From: jrader at M-W.COM (Jim Rader) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:04:17 +0000 Subject: Canuck Message-ID: The etymology was proposed and quite ably defended by James Sledd in AS 53:3 (Fall, 1978), pp. 176-78. I don't think it's all that farfetched--at least French accounts for the phonetics, unlike the "alteration of Canadian" or "alteration of , with a handwaving dismissal of the unexplained truncation and the peculiar termination <-uck>. What's your explanation for these, Mr. Johnson? At any rate, "perhaps" in an etymology, at least at Merriam, marks 50% or less confidence. is a hypothesis, not a statement of fact. Jim Rader > > And what about improving on the AHD's etymology: "prob. alteration of > 'Canadian'"? > > DEJ > > P.S. Random House has "Slang (sometimes offensive)", then word-for-word the > same definition as AHD, then the rather wondrous etymology > > "1825-35; perh. ult. to be identified with _kanaka_ 'Hawaiian, South Sea > Islander' [literally Hawaiian for 'person'], since both French Canadians and > such islanders were employed in the Pacific Northwest fur trade; later > reanalyzed as Can[adian] + a suffix" > > Is it just me, or is that a bit farfetched (literally)? > The AHD explanation seems more prob. than the RH's. > > (Or perh. it's an alteration of the French 'Canadien' -- but only if French > Canadians used that word in the early 19th century) > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > From mkuha at INDIANA.EDU Wed Aug 4 15:43:33 1999 From: mkuha at INDIANA.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:43:33 -0500 Subject: As many (as possible) In-Reply-To: <37A68AED.970C6FB8@pacbell.net> Message-ID: I don't have access to sources where I could check this right now, but isn't this a fairly normal phenomenon in various varieties of World Englishes? I seem to remember having seen it in Kenyan English, anyway. If so, this could point us to some nice functional motivation that might apply to native speakers of American English as well. -Mai On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Brian Good wrote: > I don't recall ever hearing or seeing this omission before, but now I > have come across it three times in the past month or so. The speaker > says "as many" while leaving off the "as possible" part. It really > sticks out for me because it sort of grates on my nerves.... I'm left to > complete the "as possible" in my head. Here's where I've heard/seen it: > > McSweeney's Internet Tendency, "Four Dreams of Gergen," by Paul > Maliszewski: > http://www.mcsweeneys.net/1999/06/14dreams.html > "...Lewis Lapham appears. He says, Provide as many correct and > acceptable spellings of the leader of Libya." > > On a plane before takeoff (repeated twice!): > "In order to help conserve overhead bin space, please put as many bags > under the seat in front of you." > > On a radio station in Seattle: > "We're trying to get as many people to call in and tell us about > their favorite movies." > > Is this a new trend or have I just never noticed it before? Is there > someone on some TV show who has started speaking this way? > > Brian > ..................................................... Mai Kuha mkuha at indiana.edu From mkuha at INDIANA.EDU Wed Aug 4 15:47:23 1999 From: mkuha at INDIANA.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:47:23 -0500 Subject: Grant (in NY?) Message-ID: So, are we all anxiously anticipating this new movie in which Hugh Grant's character struggles to acquire a second dialect, only to be told at the end: "You sound funny?"? -Mai ..................................................... Mai Kuha mkuha at indiana.edu From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Wed Aug 4 16:32:37 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:32:37 -0400 Subject: Grant (in NY?) Message-ID: Foo. I saw that subject header and thought it was about me. Grant (in New York) From mkuha at INDIANA.EDU Wed Aug 4 16:51:22 1999 From: mkuha at INDIANA.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:51:22 -0500 Subject: Grant (in NY?) In-Reply-To: <-1278352544gbarrett@americandialect.org> Message-ID: Oh, you sound funny too? -Mai (almost in transit from Bloomington to Muncie) On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Grant Barrett wrote: > Foo. I saw that subject header and thought it was about me. > > Grant > (in New York) From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Wed Aug 4 16:57:00 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:57:00 -0400 Subject: Clue Stick, Clue Train Message-ID: These are popping up all over, related to people "getting a clue." Not all that new, I think: they've been on my radar for perhaps a year. You might say,"Get on board the clue train, jerk" to someone who hasn't a clue what they're doing or maybe talking about, although it seems to usually be used in the third person: "He needs to climb aboard the clue train." You might also say "That boy needs to be hit with a clue stick" to someone who doesn't have a clue. Maybe there's a relationship to "ugly stick." Searches on the Internet turn up lots and lots of uses. From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Wed Aug 4 18:10:26 1999 From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:10:26 -0400 Subject: Clue Stick, Clue Train In-Reply-To: <-1278351079gbarrett@americandialect.org> Message-ID: At 12:57 PM 8/4/99 , Grant Barrett wrote: >These are popping up all over, related to people "getting a clue." Not all >that new, I think: they've been on my radar for perhaps a year. >You might say,"Get on board the clue train, jerk" to someone who hasn't a >clue what they're doing or maybe talking about, although it seems to >usually be used in the third person: "He needs to climb aboard the clue train." > >You might also say "That boy needs to be hit with a clue stick" to someone >who doesn't have a clue. Maybe there's a relationship to "ugly stick." > >Searches on the Internet turn up lots and lots of uses. On AFU (alt.folklore.urban) four or five years ago, it wasn't unusual to see one of the Old Hats advise a newbie, "The clue phone is ringing -- better answer it." -- Evan Morris words1 at word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Wed Aug 4 18:23:05 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:23:05 -0400 Subject: Clue Stick, Clue Train Message-ID: The earliest Deja News results I could find was this full-fledged utilization of clue anything. It uses "clue by four," my favorite. >From the rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5 forum at http://x40.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=118318148&CONTEXT=933790608.875298834&hitnum=0 "Nia was talking about jms's writing style this evening, I tried to get her to make a post on it, but she didn't want to, and it's relevant to this post, so...  I'll see if I can give it justice.   "First jms jumps out in front of you says "The clue train leaves in an hour", and hands you a clue card.  On the front it says J. Michael Straczynski, you turn it over and it says in small letters 'a clue'. jms runs off into the shadows again.   "Presently you find yourself at the clue train station, jms runs out again, presses a clue train token into your hand, and bodily throws you on the clue train. "After riding the train for awhile, jms comes down the isle dressed as a conductor, he takes your clue token, and then whips out his clue by four and bashes you senseless with it.  He then says "Next stop, the clue hospital". "You wake up, and find yourself on a operating table.  Then you notice you're Sheridan.  jms appears in surgical scrubs, cuts you open, and inserts the clue forcefully into your body. "(but, being Sheridan.... you still don't get it)."   -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/quickmail Size: 2300 bytes Desc: not available URL: From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Wed Aug 4 18:40:49 1999 From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:40:49 -0400 Subject: Grant (in NY?) Message-ID: Are you talking about the soon to be released mobster comedy MICKEY BLUE EYES? Mai Kuha wrote: > So, are we all anxiously anticipating this new movie in which Hugh Grant's > character struggles to acquire a second dialect, only to be told at the > end: "You sound funny?"? -- Bob Haas Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK Wed Aug 4 19:14:33 1999 From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron Drews) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:14:33 +0100 Subject: Grant (in NY?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Mai Kuha wrote: }So, are we all anxiously anticipating this new movie in which Hugh Grant's }character struggles to acquire a second dialect, only to be told at the }end: "You sound funny?"? I could very easily pass up a Hugh Grant movie. I think Gweneth Paltrow could play that kind of part very well. (Please bear in mind that I have no idea what this new movie is about). As one who is spending an awful lot of time in a library researching second dialect acquisition, the "you sound funny" is right. I'm easily picked up for an American here, but in the U.S., everyone says I sound Scottish (which offends my fiancee to no end). Many young expatriates (to read "some of my subjects that have made a trans-Atlantic move") have a "no-man's land" Mid-Atlantic dialect. Also some English folk that have moved here, or some Scots that have spent a lot of time in England also "sound funny". Semi-rhoticity sounds really funny.... and it provides lots of thesis fodder! --Aaron ======================================================================= Aaron E. Drews The University of Edinburgh +44 (0)131 650-3485 Departments of English Language http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron and Linguistics "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF" --Death From mrudge at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Aug 4 20:21:20 1999 From: mrudge at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (M. Rudge) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:21:20 -0700 Subject: tenderoni Message-ID: I was wondering if anyone new the defenition or origin of the word tenderoni. I've checked several slang dictionaries and surfed the internet in search of the answer and i've been unsuccessful. My first encounter with this word was in the Micheal Jackson song PYT from his Thriller album. I know that's taking us a few years back but I know the word is still in use today. Thanks in advance. Michelle From djtt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Aug 4 20:32:54 1999 From: djtt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Netz) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:32:54 -0700 Subject: funny phrase Message-ID: Can anybody tell me the origin of the phrase 'in like flin'? or is it 'in like flynn'--like Errol Flynn? --jennifer netz From djtt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Aug 4 20:33:36 1999 From: djtt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Netz) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:33:36 -0700 Subject: tenderoni In-Reply-To: Message-ID: not really, but that michael jackson! From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET Wed Aug 4 23:53:50 1999 From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:53:50 -0700 Subject: Jay walking; poetry in ASL? Message-ID: GEORGE THOMPSON wrote: > I wondered at the time whether anyone wrote poetry in ASL, with the dancing > movement of the hands serving the function of meter and rhyme in oral > poetry. Our president's oration sure looked a lot better than it sounded. > Nyone familiar > with such poetry? > Don't know if anyone writes poetry in ASL. But my oldest son (while he was between 35 and 40) learned ASL in a two-year, associate degree, program at Lansing, MI Community College. He does interpretation of all kinds including classroom interpreting for student-clients. At one time he interpreted for a singing group that performed for hearing impaired and deaf audiences. They called themselves "The Sounds of Silence". It is a whole different world. Bob From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Wed Aug 4 22:34:28 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:34:28 -0400 Subject: email conventions Message-ID: LJT777 at AOL.COM writes: >>> My sense is that using the smiling face to indicate humor predates the "emoticon" by quite some time. At least I have used it in lieu of something lame like "ha ha" for a number of years. I recently found myself saying BRB to someone who is also very familiar with internet jargon, abbreviations, etc. As I said it, we looked at each other and grimaced! <<< What's BRB? I suspect that a lot of these are specific to some subcultures of the 'Net culture... although, for obvious reasons, I can't easily come up with a list of netisms that are used in contexts (newsgroups, lists; chats and IRC channels, if I used any, which I don't; etc.) that I frequent but not in others. Except for one likely candidate: ttto, "to the tune of", is widely used on rec.music.filk, which is devoted to the music of the sf/fantasy fan community, in which many of the songs we write [though by no means all] either are parodies of other songs or simply recycle other songs' music. -- Mark From LJT777 at AOL.COM Wed Aug 4 22:46:18 1999 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (Lindsie Tucker) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:46:18 EDT Subject: email conventions Message-ID: BRB means be right back. From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Wed Aug 4 22:51:41 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:51:41 -0400 Subject: email conventions Message-ID: I passed Erin's comment on to several co-workers, and attach their remarks by permission: -- Mark Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc. : 617 796-0267 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ (speaking for myself) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rachel Silverman 08/04/99 06:39 PM Well, I've put smileys in, though I usually turn them right way 'round. And when I was a professional proofreader, I'd occasionally use a curly underline (in proofreading for publishing, this indicates the text should be boldface). But the worst is the Pilot-influenced handwriting things... doing "v"s backwards or not putting a crossbar in an "A", for instance. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan Gilbert 08/04/99 06:34 PM I must admit I have written ":-)" (yes, sideways like that) in handwritten notes to people ... and probably used abbreviations such as BTW, FWIW, etc. Oh the shame. But I do still tend to underline for emphasis, rather than drawing asterisks ... From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Wed Aug 4 23:02:10 1999 From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 19:02:10 -0400 Subject: funny phrase Message-ID: It was the latter, in reference to the film star and his notorious lifestyle. I understand that the phrase became popular following charges of statutory rape against Flynn in the early fifties; the two counts were subsequently dropped. I'm fairly certain about the facts here, but not quite sure of the date of the rape charges. "J. Netz" wrote: > Can anybody tell me the origin of the phrase 'in like flin'? or is it > 'in like flynn'--like Errol Flynn? > > --jennifer netz -- Bob Haas Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 5 01:22:33 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 21:22:33 EDT Subject: Listening tour; In like Flynn Message-ID: LISTENING TOUR Hillary Clinton is on a "listening tour" of New York State. I wrote to her with a problem she could have solved--and got a form letter that didn't listen to anything I said. "Listening tour" is on the Dow Jones database from about 1983--anyone have earlier? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- IN LIKE FLYNN (continued) I posted new information on "In Like Flynn" here about a month ago. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LONG ISLAND ICED TEA (continued) I wrote to "Ask Dan" of the Hampton-based DAN'S PAPERS about the origin of "Long Island iced tea." (Several people have told me that they first heard of "Long Island iced tea" in the Hamptons.) There was no reply. He's on the web--you try him. My e-mails don't seem to go through to anybody lately. From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 5 03:46:03 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:46:03 PDT Subject: Vancouver Canucks, New York Yankees, Washington Redskins Message-ID: I shouldn't have sounded so skeptical about the "kanaka" story. I was just hoping someone would contribute some of the evidence for such a hypothesis. By the way, the dictionary didn't say it came into English through a French form "canaque". Without that piece of information, I was having trouble understanding just who in the Pacific Northwest was calling French fur traders by the Hawaiian word for 'person', and why. If the word comes through French, as Jim Rader implies, then it's more like the French fur traders got friendly with the Pacific Islander fur traders, and picked up the word as slang... But does anyone know if "Canaque" has (or ever had) currency in Canadian French? Maybe it is like "Yankee" in that it's generally non-offensive, there is a sports team with the name, but at certain times and as used by certain other groups, it is or has been a term of disparagement. DEJ _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 5 04:05:37 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 21:05:37 PDT Subject: French 'canaque' Message-ID: I should specify: does or did the French word 'canaque' have currency with the meaning '[French] Canadian' rather than 'Pacific Islander'? That would seem to be a requisite link in this chain. Or perhaps someone with the 1978 volume of American Speech at hand could sketch Sledd's argument, if I'm totally missing something... DEJ _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From faber at LENNY.HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Aug 5 04:32:57 1999 From: faber at LENNY.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 00:32:57 -0400 Subject: clues Message-ID: Evan Morris wrote: > > At 12:57 PM 8/4/99 , Grant Barrett wrote: > > >These are popping up all over, related to people "getting a clue." Not all > >that new, I think: they've been on my radar for perhaps a year. > >You might say,"Get on board the clue train, jerk" to someone who hasn't a > >clue what they're doing or maybe talking about, although it seems to > >usually be used in the third person: "He needs to climb aboard the clue train." > > > >You might also say "That boy needs to be hit with a clue stick" to someone > >who doesn't have a clue. Maybe there's a relationship to "ugly stick." > > > >Searches on the Internet turn up lots and lots of uses. > > On AFU (alt.folklore.urban) four or five years ago, it wasn't unusual to > see one of the Old Hats advise a newbie, "The clue phone is ringing -- > better answer it." Yup. Those were the days. Now we just whup 'em upside the head with a clue-by-four. Alice Faber afu irregular From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Thu Aug 5 07:39:44 1999 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 02:39:44 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: internet jargon in European languages] Message-ID: Through some button-pushing confusion, this message was sent to me when it should have gone to the list. Sounds like an interesting reference! -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! -------- Original Message -------- From: GEORGE THOMPSON Subject: Re: internet jargon in European languages Some of you folks may be interested in a four-page chart comparing internet jargon in German, French, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish. It's on pp. 113-116 of Romanistik im Internet: Eine praktische Einfuhrung, Bonn: Romanistichser Verlag, 1999. Only French refuses to adopt "browser", but accepts "e-mail" and "surfer", though offering a French alternative; Italian and Spanish, it seems, have turned down "surf", though Italian accepts "mailing list" and "home page". Germans "ausloggen" but they also "uploaden". GAT From mkuha at INDIANA.EDU Thu Aug 5 13:17:14 1999 From: mkuha at INDIANA.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:17:14 -0500 Subject: Grant (in NY?) In-Reply-To: <37A88931.68095C4B@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: Somehow I've managed not to remember the title, but from your description I'm pretty sure that's it. -Mai On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Bob Haas wrote: > Are you talking about the soon to be released mobster comedy MICKEY BLUE > EYES? > > Mai Kuha wrote: > > > So, are we all anxiously anticipating this new movie in which Hugh Grant's > > character struggles to acquire a second dialect, only to be told at the > > end: "You sound funny?"? > > -- > > Bob Haas > Department of English > University of North Carolina at Greensboro > > "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" > ..................................................... Mai Kuha mkuha at indiana.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 5 13:30:46 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:30:46 EDT Subject: Carpetbaggers; Canuck; FIlibuster Message-ID: CARPETBAGGERS (continued) There are two undated "carpetbaggers" that came up on a computer search. One is this serial with a very long title: Rutter's political quarterly devoted to unearthing the sanctimonious political rats of the South, exposing radical scallawags & carpetbaggers, biographical sketches of the reconstruction destructionists with pleasing pictures behind the scenes in the reconstruction conspiracy, with a refreshing history of the radical "frauds" & "deadbeats" in the South, and their connection with the government tinkers at Washington. It's probably from 1869-1871. The University of Tennessee is one of only two libraries that has it--maybe some slang researcher there will look at it. Also undated is a broadside, 21 x 15 cm., titled: "The rejected carpet bagger." Only the Brown University library has it. The alternate title is "As Pluto sat musing on radical woe, by Benajah Muggins, the Button Town bard." One subject is Thaddeus Stevens (1792-1868). The date is listed as "? 1865-1869." Of possible interest to "carpetbagger" is the play THE MAN WITH THE CARPET BAG, A FARCE IN ONE ACT, by Gilbert Abbott a Beckett (1811-1856). The play was first performed at London's Royal Victoria Theatre, September 29, 1834. Historical Newspapers Online shows that the New York Times did editorials on the carpetbagger on 4 September 1872 and 15 November 1872. There's also this: Lincoln, President--Witnesses for the Prosecution: Roch, Charles H.: Spangler's Carpet Bag (Political) 20 May 1865 (Page 1 col 2) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CANUCK (continued) I did a VERY long posting of Canuck citations here over a year ago. Add to that these hits from Accessible Archives: August 30, 1849 THE NATIONAL ERA September 15, 1855 PROVINCIAL FREEMAN ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FILIBUSTER BDE has "filibuster" from 1855. Accessible Archives has it in the FREDERICK DOUGLASS PAPERS, Item #26582, 6 November 1851: If there is a new Filibuster expedition against Cuba or any other foreign possessions got up five or six years hence you might safely bet on his being in it.--Tribune. The Making of America database has filibuster(s)/fillibuster(s)/filibustering for 1852-1854; one article from 1854 is titled "Cuba as It Is in 1854." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 5 13:30:43 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:30:43 EDT Subject: "Monkey" & "Come off the roof" (1883 article) Message-ID: If you get enough monkeys typing, one of them will write like Shakespeare. I don't know who first said this, but I came across the NEW YORK SUN, 7 January 1917, pg. 11, "AT SEVENTY DR. GARNER GOES AGAIN TO LIVE AMONG APES." There is a photo with the caption: "POLLY, A CHIMPANZEE, LIKES TO RUN A TYPEWRITER." Col. 6 has: Polly is a typist. The paper must be put in place for her; then she pounds the keys. When the bell rings she knows it is time to stop and looks around for some one to move the carrier back for her. If no one comes at once she rattles the machine impatiently. This interesting slang article came up using Historical Newspapers Online. From the NEW YORK TIMES, 26 August 1883, pg. 6, col. 5: _SLANG_ Stupid and silly slang, like everything else that is stupid and silly, is unpardonable, but slang that is at once picturesque and expressive need not be wholly condemned. All new forms of expression are virtually slang, and if they are really meritorious they become, by grace of years, legitimate language. A very large proportion of what is now good English was at one time slang. When Mr. JOHN SULLIVAN boasts that he can "get away with" any rival pugilist, he is using the slang of the prize-ring, but when Mr. TILDEN remarks that he can "circumvent" a political rival he is using a legitimate English word. And yet "to circumvent" a man was, when the expression was new, as unmistakably slang as "to get away with" a man is to-day. All languages have been expanded and enriched by slang, and it would not be too much to say that all figurative speech consists of authorized or of unauthorized slang. The verb "to monkey," which is only a year or two old, and is as yet pure slang, is evidently to become in course of time a legitimate expression. "To monkey" is a neuter verb, though if converted into French it would undoubtedly take the reflexive form--_se singer_. Its primary meaning is to busy one's self in ways other than utilitarian. The amateur painter, or musician, "monkeys" with art, and the political theorist who invents impracticable reforms may be said "to monkey" with politics. The verb is occasionally used as a synonym for the expression "to busy one's self" with anything, but it cannot be legitimately used of honest, useful work, except when such work is either badly done or is undertaken as a recreation rather than as a legitimate business. Who invented the verb "to monkey" will probably never be known, but the inventor "monkeyed" with the English language better than he knew. The word is so full of meaning, and differs by such delicate and subtle shades from the legitimate words most closely related to it in meaning, that it will win its place in the ranks of grave and regular language. Already it has ascended from the sidewalk and is met with growing frequency--though as yet clad in quotation marks--in the columns of newspapers. Our descendants will use it without a thought of impropriety, and the grave historian who may write two hundred years hence of the present period in American history will tell his readers how Mr. BLAINE "monkeyed" with South American affairs and how Mr. GOULD made an enormous fortune by "monkeying" with railroad stocks. A still more recent example of slang is the ironical request of the street boy to a conceited and boastful opponent to "come off the roof." (RHHDAS has 1885 for "come off" and "come off your perch"--ed.) The request needs no explanation. It is vivid and picturesque. The world is full of men who might properly be requested to "come off the roof." When Democratic leaders insist that the Government must be administered honestly, or when GOV. BUTLER poses as a reformer, it is time to tell them to "come off the roof" and to descend to their true level. There is a field of study offered to the philologist in current slang which is worth cultivation. THe slang of the street is to a large extent the language of the future. It is the survival of the fittest of slang words and expressions that makes language. The philologist who will lay aside his dignity, "come off the roof," and "monkey" with slang will find himself abundantly repaid. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 5 13:44:08 1999 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:44:08 -0400 Subject: Fwd: druthers Message-ID: Since Mark, our designated forwarder of relevant Linguist List queries, hasn't gotten around to it yet, I thought I'd step in and forward this one. The reanalysis of [I'd rather]>[druther(s)] is the sort of thing that there must be intermediate evidence for, and early cites would no doubt be of interest. Replies, as usual, should go to the querier as well as (optionally) to us. > >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155. Mon Aug 2 1999. ISSN: 1068-4875. > >Subject: 10.1155, Qs: Descriptive Grammars, druthers, Verbs/Serbian >... >-------------------------------- Message 2 ------------------------------- > >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 14:55:51 GMT >From: alex at compapp.dcu.ie (Alex Monaghan CA) >Subject: druthers > >does anyone have an account of how "i would rather" formed "druthers" in US >english? or is there a different derivation? the change from gapped clause to >declinable noun seems unusual to say the least. > >comments welcome, > alex. > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >... >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155 > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 5 13:56:39 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:56:39 EDT Subject: druthers Message-ID: I did a "druthers" posting here in December 1997. I traced "I'd druther" to the AMERICAN TURF REGISTER, September 1833. The Making of America database does not have "druthers." It has "druther," with the earliest from 1857. From dumasb at UTK.EDU Thu Aug 5 13:48:26 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:48:26 -0400 Subject: druthers Message-ID: I have a lengthy essay on "would rather" (and "rather" as a verb) that I will dig out next week when I am back in Knoxville. It contains several cites. Bethany From gsmith at EWU.EDU Thu Aug 5 17:58:28 1999 From: gsmith at EWU.EDU (Grant Smith) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:58:28 -0800 Subject: Canuck Message-ID: I meant to send this message to the list originally. As usual, Barry's work was thorough and very good. >Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:04:41 -0800 >To: jrader at m-w.com >From: Grant Smith >Subject: Re: Canuck >Cc: >Bcc: >X-Attachments: > >Barry Popik traced the uses of this term in 1997 in detailed contributions >to this list (see archives) and in a paper presented at the American Name >Society meeting in Toronto (Dec. 28). Several Canadian newspapers covered >his presentation and made the story available to AP (but I did not hear if >other newspapers printed it). > >>The etymology was proposed and quite ably defended by James >>Sledd in AS 53:3 (Fall, 1978), pp. 176-78. I don't think it's all >>that farfetched--at least French accounts for the >>phonetics, unlike the "alteration of Canadian" or "alteration of >>, with a handwaving dismissal of the unexplained truncation >>and the peculiar termination <-uck>. What's your explanation for >>these, Mr. Johnson? At any rate, "perhaps" in an etymology, at least >>at Merriam, marks 50% or less confidence. is a hypothesis, >>not a statement of fact. >> >>Jim Rader >> >>> >>> And what about improving on the AHD's etymology: "prob. alteration of >>> 'Canadian'"? >>> >>> DEJ >>> >>> P.S. Random House has "Slang (sometimes offensive)", then word-for-word the >>> same definition as AHD, then the rather wondrous etymology >>> >>> "1825-35; perh. ult. to be identified with _kanaka_ 'Hawaiian, South Sea >>> Islander' [literally Hawaiian for 'person'], since both French >>>Canadians and >>> such islanders were employed in the Pacific Northwest fur trade; later >>> reanalyzed as Can[adian] + a suffix" >>> >>> Is it just me, or is that a bit farfetched (literally)? >>> The AHD explanation seems more prob. than the RH's. >>> >>> (Or perh. it's an alteration of the French 'Canadien' -- but only if French >>> Canadians used that word in the early 19th century) Grant W. Smith, President Phone: 509-359-6023 American Name Society Fax: 509-359-4269 Prof. English/Coord. Humanities Email: gsmith at ewu.edu Eastern Washington University, MS-25 526 Fifth St. Cheney, WA 99004-2431 From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Thu Aug 5 17:23:24 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 13:23:24 -0400 Subject: poetry in ASL Message-ID: Bob Fitzke writes: >>>>> GEORGE THOMPSON wrote: > I wondered at the time whether anyone wrote poetry in ASL, with the dancing > movement of the hands serving the function of meter and rhyme in oral > poetry. Our president's oration sure looked a lot better than it sounded. > Nyone familiar > with such poetry? > Don't know if anyone writes poetry in ASL. But my oldest son (while he was between 35 and 40) learned ASL in a two-year, associate degree, program at Lansing, MI Community College. He does interpretation of all kinds including classroom interpreting for student-clients. At one time he interpreted for a singing group that performed for hearing impaired and deaf audiences. They called themselves "The Sounds of Silence". It is a whole different world. <<<<< Yes, there is ASL poetry, or more generally "artsign". It involves not just "the dancing movement of the hands", but all the parameters of ASL phonology (and higher-level aspects, e.g., syntax) to create rhythm, patterns of similarity and contrast, connotation, drama, and other characteristics that distinguish poetry from prose. For example, in a single line, or group of lines, or stanza, a particular handshape may be used in every sign, creating an effect of smoothness and continuity like (but not always strictly parallel to) that of rhyme or alliteration in spoken poetry. Signs may be reversed (signed with, e.g., left hand on right instead of vice versa), or articulated at a different location from the usual one, or with a modified handshape, to maintain the flow. All these modifications are actually or potentially meaningful, which provides another level of structure for the poet/performer to work with and against. And it's not all on the hands. Prose ASL, like probably all sign languages, also uses facial and head gestures and body position grammatically; and these, too, are incorporated and enriched in artsign. -- Mark Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc. : 617 796-0267 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ (speaking for myself) From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Thu Aug 5 17:59:00 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:59:00 -0700 Subject: Dixie Message-ID: So, my office mate, being from Louisiana, brought up the monetary etymology of Dixie. I really had thought much about the origin of Dixie (probably assuming it was the Mason-Dixon line) until yesterday. I searched the ADS-L archive and didn't see any relevant postings. So I searched the Web and came up with this: http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/dixie.html which presents several theories, nothing conclusive. I was just wondering if any of the etymological wizards on this list have something more conclusive. Thanks, Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Thu Aug 5 18:11:34 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 11:11:34 -0700 Subject: Dixie Message-ID: A. Vine wrote: > > So, my office mate, being from Louisiana, brought up the monetary etymology of > Dixie. I really had thought much about the origin of Dixie (probably assuming ^ n't > it was the Mason-Dixon line) until yesterday. > > I searched the ADS-L archive and didn't see any relevant postings. So I > searched the Web and came up with this: > > http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/dixie.html > > which presents several theories, nothing conclusive. I was just wondering if > any of the etymological wizards on this list have something more conclusive. > > Thanks, > Andrea > -- > Andrea Vine > Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect > avine at eng.sun.com > I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Thu Aug 5 18:38:28 1999 From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:38:28 -0400 Subject: Dixie Message-ID: Andrea, Thanks for bringing the Urban Legends website to my attention. I don't know how verifiable the info is--after all, it's about urban legends--but it's a lot of fun. "A. Vine" wrote: > I searched the ADS-L archive and didn't see any relevant postings. So I > searched the Web and came up with this: > > http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/dixie.html > > which presents several theories, nothing conclusive. I was just wondering if > any of the etymological wizards on this list have something more conclusive. -- Bob Haas Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" From jeclapp at WANS.NET Thu Aug 5 19:05:43 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:05:43 -0400 Subject: Dixie Message-ID: A. Vine wrote: > > A. Vine wrote: > > > > I really had thought much about the origin of Dixie (probably assuming > ^ > n't > > > it was the Mason-Dixon line) until yesterday. > > > > I was just wondering if > > any of the etymological wizards on this list have something more conclusive. I don't know how conclusive it is, but I found very appealing the origin cited in an article to which Evan Morris posted a link on this list on 7/21/99, in the following message: A reader sent me a link to an interesting article on Civil War words by Christine Ammer: http://www.thehistorynet.com/MHQ/articles/1999/summer993_text.htm If I may quote the relevant passage (plus a little intro): Fighting Words: Terms from Military History The American Civil War has been called the first modern war because of the appearance of numerous innovations. Our lexicographer examines the war's linguistic heritage. By Christine Ammer . . . The South itself acquired the name Dixie, which actually originated shortly before the outbreak of hostilities. Its earliest recorded use was in a play of 1850 that featured a black character named Dixie, but it was popularized mainly through northern minstrel-showman Daniel Decatur Emmett's 1859 song, "Dixie's Land." According to historian Darryl Lyman, Dixie was a common name for black characters in minstrel shows, and Emmett said he often used the term "Dixie's land" to mean "the black (slave's) land," that is, the South. It has survived and also appears in such terms as Dixiecrat, coined for Southern Democrats who left the national party in 1948 because they opposed President Harry Truman's civil rights platform. Whether it's true or not, I *want* it to be true that the Dixieland so many white racists have claimed allegiance to is actually "Dixie's Land." From jeclapp at WANS.NET Thu Aug 5 19:16:14 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:16:14 -0400 Subject: Urban Legends Message-ID: Bob Haas wrote: > > Andrea, > > Thanks for bringing the Urban Legends website to my attention. Then you might also like http://dir.lycos.com/Society/Urban_Legends/ (though I haven't checked it out myself). James E. Clapp From jeclapp at WANS.NET Thu Aug 5 19:23:37 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:23:37 -0400 Subject: email conventions Message-ID: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM sent along this remark of a co-worker: > But the worst is the Pilot-influenced handwriting things... doing "v"s backwards > or not putting a crossbar in an "A", for instance. I was waiting for somebody else to ask so that I wouldn't have to be the one to reveal my ignorance, but nobody did, so, okay, what is a backwards "v"? James E. Clapp From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Thu Aug 5 19:20:50 1999 From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:20:50 -0400 Subject: Urban Legends Message-ID: Thanks, James. "James E. Clapp" wrote: > Then you might also like http://dir.lycos.com/Society/Urban_Legends/ > (though I haven't checked it out myself). > > James E. Clapp -- Bob Haas Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 5 20:34:26 1999 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 13:34:26 -0700 Subject: OED submissions Message-ID: >From the Honyaku Japanese translation list: Benjamin Barrett gogaku at ix.netcom.com ----- From: diane_c at sunflare.co.jp (Diane Cripps) Dear HONYAKKERs, According to the Philadelphia Inquirer: "The OED is asking anyone who speaks or reads English to submit new words and documentation for them to lexicographers working on the first complete revision in the work's 120-year history." (See http://www.phillynews.com/inquirer/99/Aug/05/national/DICT05.htm) Entries can be submitted via the OED Web site http://www.oed.com Shall I submit "informatization"? Diane Cripps diane_c at sunflare.co.jp cripps at twics.co.jp From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Aug 5 21:38:25 1999 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:38:25 -0600 Subject: "the whole nine yards" Message-ID: An Aug. 2 message from Grant Barrett passed along the following request to ADS-L--- >>I will be conducting a diversity presentation on Slang. I was asked for >>the origin of "the whole nine yards" and "the whole enchilada". Do you >>know where I might find that info and the origin of other slang terms? > >Rod Drumm >nyrrod at att.net ------The _San Diego Union Tribune_, March 11, 1997, sec. E., pp.1,3 contains an article entitled "Show Me The Phrases! by staff writer Gil Griffin. Griffin had interviewed Thomas Donahue, a San Diego State University linguistics professor for the article, and one part is relevant to Mr. Drumm's above query: "''The whole nine yards' has origins in World War II ... It came from World War II fighter pilots in the South Pacific,' Donahue said, recalling a letter he received about the phrase. "'The pilots had '50 caliber machine gun ammuntion belts that measured 27 feet. If the pilots fired all their ammo at a target, they said they let go the whole nine yards. "'The saying remains, 50-plus years later,' Donahue said, 'because it's still an easy way to express totality." -----For an overall discussion of the expression, see my item in the November 1998 issue (vol. 28, no. 2) of _Comments on Etymology_, pp.1-4; (title): "_Whole Nine Yards --Most Plausible Derivation Seems To Be From WWII Fighter Pilots' Usage." ---Gerald Cohen gcohen at umr.edu From GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA Thu Aug 5 21:15:54 1999 From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA (No Name Available) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:15:54 PDT Subject: Canuck In-Reply-To: <19990804013736.90112.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Ezra - and anybody else who's interested: Since I am a Canuck, i.e. a Canadian born and bred, I can refer to my fellow- Canadians as Canucks without being pejorative. The Gage Canadian gives "1. Canadian. 2. French Canadian (origin uncertain)" Nothing about slang (though it's certainly informal) or being offensive (it's all in the tone of voice). And don't forget that our local hockey team out here is the Vancouver Canucks! As far as the origin goes, my late supervisor, Harry Scargill, agreed with the "kanaka" theory. We have a number of kanaka-descended families out here, especially on Saltspring Island. Their ancestors were indeed boatmen with the HBC. Harry's reasoning was that since both the Kanakas and the Canadian French boatmen were dark-skinned, dark-haired and dark-eyed (a lot of the Frenchmen were Metis, and anyway, constant exposure to the elements would darken the skin of those who weren't), the Boston traders couldn't tell t'other from which (an expression of my Yokshire Granmother's) so they were all Kanakas > Canucks. "Boston," as I'm sure you know, is the Chinook Jargon word for Americans. Since the stress falls on the second syllable of both words, it's not so far-fetched as all that, though I notice that Harry, who worked on the Gage definitions A through O (I took over at P, when he became ill), din't go so far as to make this claim in the dictionary - or perhaps it was edited out. I really don't know. Is all this any help? Barbara H. From tgebhart at MADISON.K12.WI.US Thu Aug 5 21:37:41 1999 From: tgebhart at MADISON.K12.WI.US (thomas gebhart) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:37:41 -0500 Subject: msnbc use of selective eye dialect Message-ID: Go to the msnbc.com news website and click the interview with the mother of one of the two Jonesboro shooters for an editorial use of selective eye-dialect. beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon at ipfw.edu From GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA Thu Aug 5 21:36:13 1999 From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA (No Name Available) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:36:13 PDT Subject: Canuck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Bob for backing up my comments (or maybe, predicting them, since you answered first). Barbara H. From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Thu Aug 5 23:03:55 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 18:03:55 -0500 Subject: Fwd: druthers Message-ID: I would rather>I'd rather>I'd ruther>I druther fight than switch. More commonly found in "If I had my druthers." Probably obsolescent in most urban dialects of English--as is "in my stead" and similar expressions such as the distinction between bring and fetch or that and yon. ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn To: Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 8:44 AM Subject: Fwd: druthers > Since Mark, our designated forwarder of relevant Linguist List queries, > hasn't gotten around to it yet, I thought I'd step in and forward this one. > The reanalysis of [I'd rather]>[druther(s)] is the sort of thing that there > must be intermediate evidence for, and early cites would no doubt be of > interest. > Replies, as usual, should go to the querier as well as (optionally) to us. > > > > >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155. Mon Aug 2 1999. ISSN: 1068-4875. > > > >Subject: 10.1155, Qs: Descriptive Grammars, druthers, Verbs/Serbian > >... > >-------------------------------- Message 2 ------------------------------- > > > >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 14:55:51 GMT > >From: alex at compapp.dcu.ie (Alex Monaghan CA) > >Subject: druthers > > > >does anyone have an account of how "i would rather" formed "druthers" in US > >english? or is there a different derivation? the change from gapped clause to > >declinable noun seems unusual to say the least. > > > >comments welcome, > > alex. > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >... > >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155 > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 5 23:46:56 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:46:56 EDT Subject: It feels like a Friday; Spelling bee Message-ID: SPELLING BEE (continued) Boy, am I in trouble. I made a long posting on the "spelling bee" last year based on a survey of American newspapers of 1875; there was not much comment here, and it was reprinted in a recent COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY. Today I got this from Charlotte Schuchardt (Mrs. Allen Walker) Read: It does not seem that you or Dr. Popik were aware that Allen wrote an article on the spelling bee in 1941 entitled "The Spelling Bee: A Linguistic Institution" published in PMLA 56:494-512. Actually, it was Allen Walker Read's work on American spelling that was published in AMERICAN SPEECH (O.K. & Can Andrew Jackson Spell?) that interested me in the "spelling bee." I had gone through the revised Mencken, the DA, the DAE, the OED, and others (all published after 1941)--these didn't cite the PMLA article. His PMLA work and my COE work overlap only on PMLA pages 506-507, when he briefly discusses the 1875 spelling craze. I'll have to do an addendum anyway because I recently discovered an 1874 citation for "spelling bee." -------------------------------------------------------- IT FEELS LIKE A FRIDAY On Tuesday at work, someone got ill. EMS was called. Someone cursed another judge. The NYPD was called. "I can't believe it's only Tuesday," another judge said. "It feels like a Friday. It SHOULD be a Friday." I've never seen "feels/seems like a Monday/Friday" recorded. I checked "feels/seems like a" on several databases, and nothing much turned up. This is from GO FIGHT CITY HALL (1949, but also copyrighted 1946) by Ethel Rosenberg: pg. 208: "To me today _feels_ like Wednesday." pg. 214: "Oooh, I'm dying." Mrs. Rivkin's hand goes flying to (pg. 215) her bosom. "Tony," she says, "you wouldn't believe me. All day today, the whole day, I'm telling you, I keep thinking today is Wednesday. Ask me. I know it's Tuesday. Still and all, I can't help it. It _feels_ like Wednesday." "I don't know," Tony says. "It don't feel like Wednesday to me. To me it feels more like Monday." Now isn't that ridiculous? "How can Tuesday feel like Monday?" Mrs. Rivkin wonders. "The same way it can feel like Wednesday," Tony counters. pg. 218: "Tonight is such beautiful programs." "Like what?" Hannah wants to know. "Duffy's Tavern. Groucho Marx. Bing Crosby." "I give up," Hannah says. "Ma! That's tomorrow night. Today is still Tuesday!" Mrs. Rivkin throws up her hands. (...) "The whole day," she murmurs. "The whole day, do me something, it felt like Wednesday." pg. 251: He'll say this much for Hannah: Mrs. Rivkin always embarrasses her. "Ma, _please_!" He'd like a dollar for every time Hannah has said that in his presence. But go fight City Hall! OTHERS: pg. 33: "Drop dead." pp. 85, 118: nasher. pg. 151: nash. (RHHDAS has 1947 and 1951 for "nosh.") pg. 43: meesa-meshinah. pg. 105: m'shpucha. pg. 149: shlepp. pg. 153: epus. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 6 02:40:14 1999 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 22:40:14 -0400 Subject: Fwd: druthers In-Reply-To: <002401bedf96$cc24ba00$7e7a1bcc@pafracat> Message-ID: >I would rather>I'd rather>I'd ruther>I druther fight than switch. More >commonly found in "If I had my druthers." Probably obsolescent in most >urban dialects of English--as is "in my stead" and similar expressions such >as the distinction between bring and fetch or that and yon. Well, yes; that would be the "reanalysis" to which I was referring. But the questions posed were: --what sort of attestation do we have (date and place of earliest cites)? --what evidence we have for intermediate stages? (Do we ever find "I druther"?) --what prompted the switch to the noun, or as the original querier put it, the "change from gapped clause to declinable noun", i.e. a count noun capable of pluralization? I'm wondering if there was perhaps a self-conscious adaptation here, à la "monokini" and similar waggish pseudo-naive reanalyses. Larry >----- Original Message ----- >From: Laurence Horn >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 8:44 AM >Subject: Fwd: druthers > > >> Since Mark, our designated forwarder of relevant Linguist List queries, >> hasn't gotten around to it yet, I thought I'd step in and forward this >one. >> The reanalysis of [I'd rather]>[druther(s)] is the sort of thing that >there >> must be intermediate evidence for, and early cites would no doubt be of >> interest. >> Replies, as usual, should go to the querier as well as (optionally) to us. >> >> > >> >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155. Mon Aug 2 1999. ISSN: 1068-4875. >> > >> >Subject: 10.1155, Qs: Descriptive Grammars, druthers, Verbs/Serbian >> >... >> >-------------------------------- Message >2 ------------------------------- >> > >> >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 14:55:51 GMT >> >From: alex at compapp.dcu.ie (Alex Monaghan CA) >> >Subject: druthers >> > >> >does anyone have an account of how "i would rather" formed "druthers" in >US >> >english? or is there a different derivation? the change from gapped >clause to >> >declinable noun seems unusual to say the least. >> > >> >comments welcome, >> > alex. >> > >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >... >> >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155 >> > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 6 02:46:43 1999 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 22:46:43 -0400 Subject: Ethel Rosenberg, Go Fight City Hall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:46 PM -0400 8/5/99, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >-------------------------------------------------------- >IT FEELS LIKE A FRIDAY > > On Tuesday at work, someone got ill. EMS was called. Someone cursed >another judge. The NYPD was called. "I can't believe it's only Tuesday," >another judge said. "It feels like a Friday. It SHOULD be a Friday." > I've never seen "feels/seems like a Monday/Friday" recorded. I >checked "feels/seems like a" on several databases, and nothing much turned >up. > This is from GO FIGHT CITY HALL (1949, but also copyrighted 1946) by >Ethel Rosenberg: > >pg. 208: "To me today _feels_ like Wednesday." > >... >pg. 251: He'll say this much for Hannah: Mrs. Rivkin always embarrasses >her. "Ma, _please_!" He'd like a dollar for every time Hannah has said >that in his presence. But go fight City Hall! > And for this she was executed! Go figure! Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Aug 6 03:28:31 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:28:31 EDT Subject: Electric Ice(d) Tea; Sex on the Beach Message-ID: ELECTRIC ICE(D) TEA The Seattle drink has it both ways. From the Dow Jones database: SEATTLE TIMES, 14 June 1991, pg. 34: Bickford's, 23025 100th Avenue W., 775-4363...(but there is a limit in zoomers like Electric Ice Tea)... SEATTLE TIMES, 27 May 1993, pg. 5: Our waitress (Hunan Chef, 425 116th Ave., N.E., Bellevue--ed.) recommended an Electric Ice Tea: tequila, rum, gin, Coke and sweet'n'sour mix. The $6 effect was lemonade with a bite. Quite pleasing. A regular explained that the bar won't serve any customer more than two of these particular drinks because of their effect. SEATTLE TIMES, 26 June 1997, pg. D4: Having tired of Electric Iced Tea and cigar rooms, perhaps it's inevitable that regulars at the neighborhood watering hole will embrace the latest trend: oxygen bars. SEATTLE TIMES, 5 July 1998, pg. J1: It takes more than making a fuzzy navel extra fuzzy or adding extra "volts" to an electric iced tea to make a bartender. SEATTLE TIMES, 31 December 1998, pg. D1: Martinis have made a huge comeback since the dark ages of cocktails in the 1970s, when people drank Harvey Wallbangers, Electric Ice Tea and Sex on the Beach. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SEX ON THE BEACH The above citation seems to imply both "Electric Ice(d) Tea" and "Sex on the Beach" in the 1970s. This is the first Dow Jones hit for "Sex on the Beach," from the SAN DIEGO UNION-TRIBUNE, 1 September 1987, pg. D1: _Drinks range from lighthearted to lascivious_ _Exotic new libations, with names to match, are making a splash on the bar circuit_ You're at a bar, and you overhear the guy at the next table say something about a '57 Chevy with Hawaiian plates, a fuzzy navel and sex on the beach. You try not to be obvious, but you're leaning so far out of your chair that the waitress thinks you're having a seizure. "And how about you, sir?" the curious waitress inquires a moment later. "Would you like a brain, root canal, or banana split?" (...) '57 Chevy with Hawaiian plates (vodka, amaretto, and pineapple juice) Fuzzy Navel (vodka, peach schnapps, and orange juice) Sex on the Beach (vodka, peach schnapps, and cranberry juice) B-52 (supposedly invented by Lionel Broun, author of THE DRINK DIRECTORY--ed) (Grand Marnier, Kahlua, and Bailey's Irish Cream) ATLANTA CONSTITUTION, 30 May 1990, pg. 6: "All over the country, people are having Sex on the Beach" is the slogan on one ad touting a drink made with Midori. NATION'S RESTAURANT NEWS, 2 January 1995, pg. 31: Perhaps the most famous shooter name is "Sex on the Beach," a contemporary classic composed of vodka, peach schnapps, cranberry juice and orange juice. ("Tie Me to the Bed Post"--Midori, Citron, Malibu Rum, Sweet-n-Sour mix, served at Apples Bar in Orlando--ed.) LOS ANGELES TIMES, 11 January 1996, pg. 4: Safe Sex on the Beach: While Sex on the Beach is a common (cliche) menu item at beach-city bars, the Cheesecake Factory in Marina del Rey added the word "safe"--making it a true drink for the 1990s. BOSTON GLOBE, 30 June 1996, pg. 1: ...Sex on the Beach, a sweet mix of peach schnapps, vodka, cranberry and organge juice that many of the young women favored. "Screaming Orgasm" is _not_ next! I WILL NOT DO "SCREAMING ORGASM"!! From jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU Fri Aug 6 03:22:08 1999 From: jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU (Jeutonne P. Brewer) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:22:08 -0400 Subject: email conventions In-Reply-To: <37A9E4B9.C4C72133@wans.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, James E. Clapp wrote: > Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM sent along this remark of a co-worker: > > > But the worst is the Pilot-influenced handwriting things... doing "v"s backwards > > or not putting a crossbar in an "A", for instance. > > I was waiting for somebody else to ask so that I wouldn't have to be the one to > reveal my ignorance, but nobody did, so, okay, what is a backwards "v"? > > James E. Clapp You write the "v" from right to left instead of left to right. Reason: The Graffiti program (handwriting recognition) never interprets a backwards "v" as a "u". The Palm/Pilot uses a stylized alphabet that requires the minimum number of strokes. The idea is to make the letters without lifting the stylus from the screen. (Only the letter "x" requires two strokes and the lifting of the stylus from the screen.) The "A" without the crossbar is all that is needed to distinguish the letter from other letters. It's an interesting and, in my opinion, easy system to learn. Jeutonne Brewer From pds at VISI.COM Fri Aug 6 04:26:25 1999 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:26:25 -0500 Subject: Email conventions (Initialisms) In-Reply-To: <37A7729C.FC38CBCE@wans.net> Message-ID: At 06:52 PM 8/3/1999 -0400, James E Clapp wrote: >1. Initialisms: > >The people who use these are people who never learned to type. For a >typist, it's quicker and easier to type "in my opinion" than "IMHO," which >requires holding down the shift key while typing four unrelated >characters. How's this for an alternative hypothesis: Most initialisms fade from general use (or never acheive it). Those that persist (in e-mail) are both handy, AND are easier to type. "BTW" and "IMHO" do indeed require holding down the shift key, but they can be made without switching hands. B, T, and W are all on the left side of the keyboard, while I, M, H, and O are all on the right. Actually, I find that I use initialisms with considerable frequency. [And I do touch type.] These are suited to the recipient. When writing to a political connection I may throw in "SoS" for Secretary of State; to programmers, "VFP" for Visual FoxPro; and of course to y'all, "DARE" for, well, you know, doncha. FWIW, here's a complete list of initialisms from a corpus (N=3) of e-mail messages sent by me to a general correspondent in August 1997. F feminist [as a pseudo-genus in F Conferensis] HS high school [not part of a name] SRS Spanish Riding School [written out in a previous sentence] FAQ (archive of answers to) Frequently Asked Questions PO'd Pissed off DFL Democratic-Farmer-Labor (Party) SPPP St Paul Pioneer Press G&S Gilbert and Sullivan PC (IBM-compatible) personal computer BTW By the way USN&WR US News and World Report [never written out] POP Post Office Protocol And if we don't think of typing, we may recall letters from those wonderful epistolary novels of the 18th and 19th centuries, in which initialisms (as well as other abbreviations) abound. Finally, there is P G Wodehouse's Bertie Wooster who made nonce initialism into a high art. If initialisms don't always save time and effort -- and I think they usually do -- they do save space (or bandwidth) and often add spice. And, yes, they can serve to identify the writer with an in-group. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Fri Aug 6 04:43:48 1999 From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 00:43:48 -0400 Subject: Electric Ice(d) Tea; Sex on the Beach Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > SEX ON THE BEACH > > The above citation seems to imply both "Electric Ice(d) Tea" and "Sex on > the Beach" in the 1970s. This is the first Dow Jones hit for "Sex on the > Beach," from the SAN DIEGO UNION-TRIBUNE, 1 September 1987, pg. D1: I remember the Sex on the Beach cocktail being served as early as 1984 at the Four Corners restaurant in Chapel Hill, but I cannot verify it. I mean, I don't have a menu on me. > "Screaming Orgasm" is _not_ next! > I WILL NOT DO "SCREAMING ORGASM"!! Then you won't be very popular, Barry. -- Bob Haas Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Aug 6 06:35:39 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 02:35:39 EDT Subject: CMYK Message-ID: AOL has a Computing Webopaedia. The word of the day is "CMYK." It's at http://aol.pcwebopedia.com/TERM/C/CMYK.html. CMYK stands for Cyam-Magenta-Yellow-Black. The first letters of each word were in bold. Er, so wouldn't that be CMYB? From james at MULLAN.UK.COM Thu Aug 5 17:31:06 1999 From: james at MULLAN.UK.COM (James Mullan) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 18:31:06 +0100 Subject: Carpetbaggers In-Reply-To: <80adc948.24daec06@aol.com> Message-ID: At 09:30 05/08/1999 EDT, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >CARPETBAGGERS (continued) > > There are two undated "carpetbaggers" that came up on a computer search. > One is this serial with a very long title: > >Rutter's political quarterly devoted to unearthing the sanctimonious >political rats of the South, exposing radical scallawags & carpetbaggers, [snip] FWIW, I used live in Canada & elsewhere, until returning to the UK in '98. Over here in Olde England, the term "carpetbagger" is used differently - it refers to people who open accounts in mutually-owned "Building Societies" (roughly equivalent to S & Ls in the US) in hope (or expectation) of payouts when the Building Society demutualises and becomes a limited liability company, bank or otherwise is listed on an Exchange. Boards usually offer financial inducements to depositors - the "owners" in a mutual - to get them to agree to the institution to go public, with the proxy fights being usually vituperative and hotly fought. Strange how these Brits use the English language, eh? ;-). Just my $0.02 Jimmy The storyteller makes no choice soon you will not hear his voice his job is to shed light and not to master ("Terrapin Station" - Garcia/Hunter) From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM.TW Fri Aug 6 08:19:58 1999 From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM.TW (Russ McClay) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:19:58 +0800 Subject: CMYK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 1999 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 02:35:39 EDT > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: CMYK > > AOL has a Computing Webopaedia. The word of the day is "CMYK." It's at > http://aol.pcwebopedia.com/TERM/C/CMYK.html. > CMYK stands for Cyam-Magenta-Yellow-Black. The first letters of each > word were in bold. > Er, so wouldn't that be CMYB? Perhaps concern for confusing B for Blue. Russ From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK Fri Aug 6 10:06:48 1999 From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron Drews) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:06:48 +0100 Subject: CMYK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Russ McClay wrote: }On Fri, 6 Aug 1999 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: }> }> AOL has a Computing Webopaedia. The word of the day is "CMYK." It's at }> http://aol.pcwebopedia.com/TERM/C/CMYK.html. }> CMYK stands for Cyam-Magenta-Yellow-Black. The first letters of each }> word were in bold. }> Er, so wouldn't that be CMYB? } }Perhaps concern for confusing B for Blue. Most older monitors (or Visual Display Units) were RGB (red green blue), as are HTML colors. So, "B" does mean blue, but in a slightly different context. When I was working in desktop publishing, we sometimes had to convert RGB and CMYK values, and I guess saying "change B to 23 %" might have been a bit confusing. --Aaron ======================================================================= Aaron E. Drews The University of Edinburgh +44 (0)131 650-3485 Departments of English Language http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron and Linguistics "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF" --Death From dmuschel at MAIL.GCSU.EDU Fri Aug 6 11:55:07 1999 From: dmuschel at MAIL.GCSU.EDU (David Muschell) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:55:07 -0400 Subject: Dixie In-Reply-To: <37A9D0E4.7C761D5F@eng.sun.com> Message-ID: Andrea, Being in the heart of Dixie, I have done some pretty extensive research on Dixie (including all the ones on the internet site you provide). Though the minstrel show theory has ironic appeal, the bank note origin may be the most likely. The distrust of federal paper money in the early nineteenth century, especially in the South, led many, many banks to issue their own scrip. With cotton king and New Orleans in an economic boom, several banks, the Citizens Bank among them, had scrip that could be exchanged for gold as far away as New York City, their assets being so sound. The mispronunciation of the French "dix" into a more Anglicized form makes the "dixie note" and "the land of the dixie" a Yankee acknowledgement of the economic power of the South in the early part of the century. My research is nine years old (working on my book _Where in the Word?_), so I'd have to dig for my citations. Once again, however, the origin is only one of several possibilities, though economic pride and distrust in the central federal government may offer more impetus to the word origin than entertainment. (I knew a Yankee who used the variation: "Way up north where I was born, early on one snowy morning, look away, look away, look away, Michigan!"). David At 10:59 AM 8/5/99 -0700, you wrote: >So, my office mate, being from Louisiana, brought up the monetary etymology of >Dixie. I really had thought much about the origin of Dixie (probably assuming >it was the Mason-Dixon line) until yesterday. > >I searched the ADS-L archive and didn't see any relevant postings. So I >searched the Web and came up with this: > >http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/dixie.html > >which presents several theories, nothing conclusive. I was just wondering if >any of the etymological wizards on this list have something more conclusive. > >Thanks, >Andrea >-- >Andrea Vine >Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect >avine at eng.sun.com >I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. > > David Muschell Box 44 Dept. of English, Speech, and Journalism Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-445-5556 dmuschel at mail.gcsu.edu From dmuschel at MAIL.GCSU.EDU Fri Aug 6 12:17:15 1999 From: dmuschel at MAIL.GCSU.EDU (David Muschell) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:17:15 -0400 Subject: email conventions In-Reply-To: <852567C3.007D7063.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com> Message-ID: There seems to be an attitude that using emoticons has a certain linguistic disgracefulness attached. Spending the majority of my writing life as a playwright, I find I am constantly finding ways to help my actors interpret a line: So you like going to school? (the very ambiguous "emoticon," the question mark) So you like going to school! (our oldest emoticon, the exclamation point, still ambiguous) So you like going to school !? (maybe giving a bit more amazement with the combination) I might underline "you" or "like" or "school" to create the shift in meaning that I'm looking for. The ellipsis might be used at the end to indicate a pause or a thoughtful moment. A dash might indicate the other actor should interrupt the first speaker. All of you know these conventions used in trying to capture the oral style. I think letter writing and, even more so, email writing has a similar sense of voice and emotion. Rather than mortification and self-reproach concerning the use of emoticons, I'm interested in what kinds there are out there and how they're used (the ":P" tongue-sticking out was new to me). We've all probably seen the wink "; )" and the smile and frown. What are some others? Is there surprise: :-o or uncertainty vOv (a shrug sign) or outrage :-Z??? David At 06:51 PM 8/4/99 -0400, you wrote: >I passed Erin's comment on to several co-workers, and attach their remarks by >permission: > >-- Mark > > Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data > Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc. : 617 796-0267 > 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ > (speaking for myself) > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >Rachel Silverman >08/04/99 06:39 PM > > >Well, I've put smileys in, though I usually turn them right way 'round. And >when I was a professional proofreader, I'd occasionally use a curly underline >(in proofreading for publishing, this indicates the text should be boldface). > >But the worst is the Pilot-influenced handwriting things... doing "v"s backwards >or not putting a crossbar in an "A", for instance. > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >Jonathan Gilbert >08/04/99 06:34 PM > >I must admit I have written ":-)" (yes, sideways like that) in handwritten notes >to people ... and probably used abbreviations such as BTW, FWIW, etc. Oh the >shame. > >But I do still tend to underline for emphasis, rather than drawing asterisks ... > > David Muschell Box 44 Dept. of English, Speech, and Journalism Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-445-5556 dmuschel at mail.gcsu.edu From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU Fri Aug 6 13:01:51 1999 From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 09:01:51 -0400 Subject: email conventions In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990806081715.0079a100@mail.gcsu.edu> Message-ID: You can find webpages full of them on the Net. Most of those are pretty special-interest, though... like a Star Trek Klingon emoticon. The only main ones that I can think of that you left out are :} and :{ Both indicate a very sheepish attitude...as in Person 1: If you'd read my e-mail, you'd have known that... Person 2: Sorry.... :} Person 1: You know I don't want to think about that anymore! Stop bringing it up! Person 2: :{ I forgot... Johanna, who wants to point out that ':P' can also be written as ':b' Excerpts from mail: 6-Aug-99 Re: email conventions by David Muschell at MAIL.GCSU > Rather than mortification and self-reproach concerning the use of > emoticons, I'm interested in what kinds there are out there and how they're > used (the ":P" tongue-sticking out was new to me). We've all probably seen > the wink "; )" and the smile and frown. What are some others? Is there > surprise: :-o or uncertainty vOv (a shrug sign) or outrage :-Z??? > From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Fri Aug 6 15:26:10 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:26:10 -0400 Subject: email conventions Message-ID: On jeudi 5 ao�t 1999, Jeutonne P. Brewer wrote: >The Palm/Pilot uses a stylized alphabet that requires the minimum number >of strokes. The idea is to make the letters without lifting the stylus >from the screen. (Only the letter "x" requires two strokes and the >lifting of the stylus from the screen.) The "A" without the crossbar is >all that is needed to distinguish the letter from other letters. >It's an interesting and, in my opinion, easy system to learn. I'm not sure about the X requiring two strokes. Many of the letters have alternate strokes (you can enter the data different ways), and there are add-on programs that can let you completely alter the alphabet to suit your handwriting, but the default X, to the best of my knowledge is one stroke, starting in the upper left, running down to the lower right, curving up to the right, and following through from the upper right to the lower left so as to cross and form a loop with the first downward stroke -- Grant Barrett World New York http://www.worldnewyork.com/ From jrader at M-W.COM Fri Aug 6 11:46:37 1999 From: jrader at M-W.COM (Jim Rader) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:46:37 +0000 Subject: Dixie Message-ID: I did a little research on _Dixie_ in 1993 in response to a query from a correspondent. My feeling then was that the supposed fiscal origin of _Dixie_ was totally unsupported because no one, to my knowledge, has ever found _dixie_ in print referring to a monetary unit of any kind. The Citizens' Bank of Louisiana did issue ten-dollar notes inscribed with both and between 1845 and 1862, but were they ever called "dixies"? No evidence. Ten dollars was a rather high denomination in the mid-19th century, and I wonder to what extent the bills actually circulated. This etymology was promulgated in a pamphlet issued about 1912 or 1913 by the Citizens' Bank & Trust Company of Louisiana, the successor of the Citizens' Bank. It looks like a nice public relations story. The most extensive discussion of the etymology of _Dixie_ that I found was in the musicologist Hans Nathan's book _Dan Emmett and the Rise of Early Negro Minstrelsy (1962). Nathan quotes Dan Emmett's recollection (published in the April 6, 1872, number of the _New York Clipper_) that _Dixie's Land_ "is an old phrase applied to the Southern States, at least to that part of it lying south of the Mason and Dixon's line. In my traveling days amongst showmen, when we would start for a winter's season south, while speaking of the change, they would invariably ejactulate [sic] the stereotyped saying:--'I Wish I was in Dixie's Land,' meaning the southern country....." Although Emmett seems to hint at some relation between _Dixie's Land_ and the Mason-Dixon line, this looks rather after-the-fact, though the etymology was proposed as early as 1861 (Nathan's comment is "the implied derivation is based on legend rather than fact.") Hans Nathan's theory, which others have repeated, was that Dixie was a stock character name for a minstrel-show black, perhaps formed analogically to such widely known names as Pompey and Cuffee. If this was the case, then "Dixie's Land" would make sense as a showman's stock name for the South, the "home" of most African-Americans in slave days. Nathan's sole support for his theory was the occurrence of _Dixie_ in a playbill, dated 1850, that Nathan himself apparently discovered at the American Antiquarian Society in Worcester, MA. The title of the skit was _United States Mail, or Dixie in Difficulties_; Dixie is a black postboy in the skit. Unfortunately, Nathan doesn't illustrate the playbill, which he says is "mutilated." J.L. Dillard had the idea (expostulated in _Black English_, 1972: 221-22) that "...it is pretty clear that the word [comes] from a Plantation Creole pronunciation of the second surname in the _Mason-Dixon Line_, which was laid out in 1763-7, well within the Plantation Creole and even the Negro Pidgin period...Besides being a natural development from _Dixon_ according to the phonological structure of pidgin/creole (which utilizes a consonsant-vowel canonic syllable pattern), _Dixie_ is found as a pronunciation of the surname among the Negro Seminole Scouts--with the spelling _Dixey_ [Dillard gives a footnote to the source here]." Of course, the objection to this etymology is that Dan Emmett, who was born in Ohio, was unlikely to have had much exposure to actual African-American speech of his day, and his songs, in point of fact, appear to have all been written in a stereotyped minstrel-show parody of what was taken to be black speech. A book published in 1996, _Way Up North in Dixie: A Black Family's Claim to the Confederate Anthem_, by Howard and Judith Sacks, claims that Emmett did have exposure to African-American music: Emmett may have known the Snowden's, a black family who played and performed in rural Ohio from the 1850's to the 1920's. I glanced at this book when it first appeared and saw nothing about _Dixie_ in it. (Barry Popik mentioned the book in a post of July, 16, 1998, and he came to the same conclusion I did.) But I never had the time to look into the matter more thoroughly, to see if Dillard's theory actually has any merit. Jim Rader > So, my office mate, being from Louisiana, brought up the monetary etymology of > Dixie. I really had thought much about the origin of Dixie (probably assuming > it was the Mason-Dixon line) until yesterday. > > I searched the ADS-L archive and didn't see any relevant postings. So I > searched the Web and came up with this: > > http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/dixie.html > > which presents several theories, nothing conclusive. I was just wondering if > any of the etymological wizards on this list have something more conclusive. > > Thanks, > Andrea > -- > Andrea Vine > From HoDT at STATE.GOV Fri Aug 6 17:10:43 1999 From: HoDT at STATE.GOV (Ho, Duy T) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:10:43 -0400 Subject: Canuck Message-ID: Question: How do you unsubcribe from this mailing list? Thank you very much. Ted > ---------- > From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA[SMTP:GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA] > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 5:36 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Canuck > > Thanks, Bob for backing up my comments (or maybe, predicting them, since > you > answered first). > > Barbara H. > From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU Fri Aug 6 18:56:10 1999 From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:56:10 -0500 Subject: Dixie In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990806075507.007bb100@mail.gcsu.edu> Message-ID: David Muschell wrote recently on the history of the word "Dixie", saying in part: "The distrust of federal paper money in the early nineteenth century, especially in the South, led many, many banks to issue their own scrip. With cotton king and New Orleans in an economic boom, several banks, the Citizens Bank among them, had scrip that could be exchanged for gold as far away as New York City, their assets being so sound." It is my impression, from extensive reading in the New York City newspapers of 1815-1845 and before and after, that all, or nearly all paper money in circulation in the United States before the Civil War was issued by local banks. The article on "Money" in the Dictionary of American History supports this notion, saying that paper money was issued by "state-chartered commercial banks" and by the two "Banks of the United States", which were chartered by the federal government, but were not divisions of the Treasury department. Both charters ran for 20 years, 1791 to 1811 and 1816 to 1836, and neither charter was renewed, for political reasons. The U. S. Mint issued gold and silver coins, but the Treasury department didn't print paper money (greenbacks) until the Civil War. New York businessmen were wary of accepting unfamiliar money on out-of-state banks, partly because given the slowness with which news travelled, they could not be sure that they would know whether or not the bank was still solvent, but also because counterfeiting was a major criminal industry, and unless a merchant handled a bank's currency regularly, he couldn't be sure that he would could tell funny money from good money. It appears that it was not illegal in Canada to print American money; at least, whether for that reason or another, the counterfeit money factories were often in Canada, and couriers brought the money down to New York City. I posted a note on the word "boodle" here some months ago, citing a source from the late 1810s that referred to counterfeit money being packaged for shipment in hard tight brick-like blocks. New York City banks would exchange out-of-town currency for local currency, but might discount the face value of the money offered them. Naturally, communications between New Orleans and New York would have been excellent, by the standard of the time, and a lot of business would have been transacted between the two centers, so New York merchants and bankers may well have been more familiar with New Orleans banks and willing to accept their currency than, say, paper money from banks in Ohio or Kentucky. But the fact that New Orleans banks issued paper money, or that it was carried to areas far from New Orleans, isn't remarkable. A man making a business trip from New Orleans would have to fill his wallet with New Orleans currency, unless he collected New York City currency as it circulated in New Orleans. Another major criminal industry of the time was pickpocketing, of course, since businessmen would come to New York with a thousand dollars or more in their wallet, and then not have the discretion to stay out of crowds, stay sober, and stay away from painted women. The fact that businessmen who did stay sober, etc., might be given a hotel room to share -- even sometimes a bed to share -- with a stranger, also helped to make this a truly golden age for pickpockets. This all has no real bearing on the question of the origin of the regional designation "Dixie". The key point in this issue, it seems to me, is the one made by another message to this group: if it's not actually recorded that ten (or "dix") dollar bills from New Orleans banks were ever called "dixies", then the supposition that this is the origin of the name has no foundation. (I unfortunately deleted the message that made this point, so I can't cite the sender's name.) GAT From jeclapp at WANS.NET Fri Aug 6 21:40:05 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:40:05 -0400 Subject: Dixie Message-ID: I like *all* the theories about the origins of "Dixie," and as usual I am thrilled by the erudition on this list. What great history! What great stories! Well, actually, I guess there's one Dixie theory I don't particularly care for--the Mason-Dixon line one. Compared to all the others, it's boring. Besides, as someone was quick to point out in response to a posting from me on a previous thread, Maryland--which is where you land if you cross that line from the north--is not exactly Dixieland. (Although as someone correctly responded at the time, there was definitely a lot of southern culture in southern Maryland, along the border with DC and Virginia, in the 1950's.) James E. Clapp From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Fri Aug 6 22:53:11 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:53:11 -0500 Subject: Fwd: druthers Message-ID: There is quite a semanto-syntactic distinction between a count noun and a limited count noun. ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn To: Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 9:40 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: druthers >I would rather>I'd rather>I'd ruther>I druther fight than switch. More >commonly found in "If I had my druthers." Probably obsolescent in most >urban dialects of English--as is "in my stead" and similar expressions such >as the distinction between bring and fetch or that and yon. Well, yes; that would be the "reanalysis" to which I was referring. But the questions posed were: --what sort of attestation do we have (date and place of earliest cites)? --what evidence we have for intermediate stages? (Do we ever find "I druther"?) --what prompted the switch to the noun, or as the original querier put it, the "change from gapped clause to declinable noun", i.e. a count noun capable of pluralization? I'm wondering if there was perhaps a self-conscious adaptation here, à la "monokini" and similar waggish pseudo-naive reanalyses. Larry >----- Original Message ----- >From: Laurence Horn >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 8:44 AM >Subject: Fwd: druthers > > >> Since Mark, our designated forwarder of relevant Linguist List queries, >> hasn't gotten around to it yet, I thought I'd step in and forward this >one. >> The reanalysis of [I'd rather]>[druther(s)] is the sort of thing that >there >> must be intermediate evidence for, and early cites would no doubt be of >> interest. >> Replies, as usual, should go to the querier as well as (optionally) to us. >> >> > >> >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155. Mon Aug 2 1999. ISSN: 1068-4875. >> > >> >Subject: 10.1155, Qs: Descriptive Grammars, druthers, Verbs/Serbian >> >... >> >-------------------------------- Message >2 ------------------------------- >> > >> >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 14:55:51 GMT >> >From: alex at compapp.dcu.ie (Alex Monaghan CA) >> >Subject: druthers >> > >> >does anyone have an account of how "i would rather" formed "druthers" in >US >> >english? or is there a different derivation? the change from gapped >clause to >> >declinable noun seems unusual to say the least. >> > >> >comments welcome, >> > alex. >> > >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >> >... >> >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155 >> > From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Fri Aug 6 22:54:00 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:54:00 -0500 Subject: Fwd: druthers Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn To: Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 9:40 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: druthers >I would rather>I'd rather>I'd ruther>I druther fight than switch. More >commonly found in "If I had my druthers." Probably obsolescent in most >urban dialects of English--as is "in my stead" and similar expressions such >as the distinction between bring and fetch or that and yon. Well, yes; that would be the "reanalysis" to which I was referring. But the questions posed were: --what sort of attestation do we have (date and place of earliest cites)? --what evidence we have for intermediate stages? (Do we ever find "I druther"?) --what prompted the switch to the noun, or as the original querier put it, the "change from gapped clause to declinable noun", i.e. a count noun capable of pluralization? I'm wondering if there was perhaps a self-conscious adaptation here, à la "monokini" and similar waggish pseudo-naive reanalyses. Larry >----- Original Message ----- >From: Laurence Horn >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 8:44 AM >Subject: Fwd: druthers > > >> Since Mark, our designated forwarder of relevant Linguist List queries, >> hasn't gotten around to it yet, I thought I'd step in and forward this >one. >> The reanalysis of [I'd rather]>[druther(s)] is the sort of thing that >there >> must be intermediate evidence for, and early cites would no doubt be of >> interest. >> Replies, as usual, should go to the querier as well as (optionally) to us. >> >> > >> >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155. Mon Aug 2 1999. ISSN: 1068-4875. >> > >> >Subject: 10.1155, Qs: Descriptive Grammars, druthers, Verbs/Serbian >> >... >> >-------------------------------- Message >2 ------------------------------- >> > >> >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 14:55:51 GMT >> >From: alex at compapp.dcu.ie (Alex Monaghan CA) >> >Subject: druthers >> > >> >does anyone have an account of how "i would rather" formed "druthers" in >US >> >english? or is there a different derivation? the change from gapped >clause to >> >declinable noun seems unusual to say the least. >> > >> >comments welcome, >> > alex. >> > >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >> >... >> >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155 >> > From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Fri Aug 6 22:37:34 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:37:34 -0700 Subject: email conventions Message-ID: Johanna N Franklin wrote: > > You can find webpages full of them on the Net. Most of those are pretty > special-interest, though... like a Star Trek Klingon emoticon. The only > main ones that I can think of that you left out are > > :} > and :{ > > Both indicate a very sheepish attitude...as in > Personally, I use curly bracket for a smirk :-} It is a frequent expression of mine. For emoticons, take a look at: http://wwws.enterprise.net/fortknox/emoticon/smiley.html Also, you might want to look at: http://www.learnthenet.com/english/html/25smile.htm (Service with a smirk.) Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU Sat Aug 7 01:08:46 1999 From: jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU (Jeutonne P. Brewer) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:08:46 -0400 Subject: email conventions In-Reply-To: <-1278183729gbarrett@americandialect.org> Message-ID: ~On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Grant Barrett wrote: > On jeudi 5 ao�t 1999, Jeutonne P. Brewer wrote: > > >The Palm/Pilot uses a stylized alphabet that requires the minimum number > >of strokes. The idea is to make the letters without lifting the stylus > >from the screen. (Only the letter "x" requires two strokes and the > >lifting of the stylus from the screen.) The "A" without the crossbar is > >all that is needed to distinguish the letter from other letters. > >It's an interesting and, in my opinion, easy system to learn. > > I'm not sure about the X requiring two strokes. Many of the letters have alternate strokes (you can enter the data different ways), and there are add-on programs that can let you completely alter the alphabet to suit your handwriting, but the default X, to the best of my knowledge is one stroke, starting in the upper left, running down to the lower right, curving up to the right, and following through from the upper right to the lower left so as to cross and form a loop with the first downward stroke > > > -- > Grant Barrett > > World New York > http://www.worldnewyork.com/ Well, I have to disagree about the method for making the "x' symbol. Both the Palm's help system and David Pogue's _Palm Pilot: The Ultimate Guide_ list as the default the typical way of making a printed "x" for the the Palm's Graffiti system. Pogue lists a sideways gamma, evidently what you suggest, as a way to make the "x" character. I've never made it that way because I have found the default way of making the "x"--two stokes, typical printed way--easy to remember, predictable, and always acceptable to the Palm. Jeutonne Brewer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Aug 7 01:19:42 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:19:42 EDT Subject: "Abuse Excuse" Message-ID: "Abuse excuse" is showing hits all over the web. Does anyone have an inkling about the first use? The phrase burst on to the scene this week, of course, with Hillary Clinton's interview with TALK magazine. She alleged (although she's recently spun exactly what she said and what she meant) in the interview that Bill Clinton's actions as an adult may have their roots in child abuse when Clinton was about four. BTW, if any of you don't like any of my postings, I too was abused as a little child. It was by my mother, my father, and this rabbi, but I don't want to get into it now... From jeclapp at WANS.NET Sat Aug 7 04:19:17 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:19:17 -0400 Subject: email conventions Message-ID: A. Vine wrote: > > For emoticons, take a look at: > > http://wwws.enterprise.net/fortknox/emoticon/smiley.html > > Also, you might want to look at: > > http://www.learnthenet.com/english/html/25smile.htm To decrypt initialisms or search for initialisms whose expansions include a particular word, see The World Wide Web Acronym and Abbreviation Server at http://www.ucc.ie/info/net/acronyms/acro.html . This site was just called to my attention today by someone whom I had to write back to ask what he meant by AFAIK. I told him I assumed (from the context) that the FAIK means "for all I know," but couldn't figure out the A. He wrote back to say the abbreviation stands for "as far as I know." This is what I meant when I wrote on this list that I find these initialisms a pain, and am always having to go to a lot of trouble if I want to know what the person writing them is actually trying to say. Having a Web site to consult doesn't make them any less a pain, but some of you researchers out there may find it interesting or useful. James E. Clapp From jeclapp at WANS.NET Sat Aug 7 04:38:19 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:38:19 -0400 Subject: "Abuse Excuse" Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > "Abuse excuse" is showing hits all over the web. Does anyone have an inkling about the first use? I have long been curious to know whether Alan M. Dershowitz coined this or was merely using a phrase that had been around a while when he wrote his book _The Abuse Excuse_ [full title: _The Abuse Excuse And Other Cop-outs, Sob Stories, and Evasions of Responsibility_] (Little, Brown, 1994). One distinct possibility is that Dershowitz coined the phrase in a previously published article and then expanded the idea into a book. He doesn't seem to claim credit for it, though; his introduction simply starts out: "The "abuse excuse"--the legal tactic by which criminal defendants claim a history of abuse as an excuse for violent retaliation-- is quickly becoming a license to kill and maim." The book has a "Glossary of Abuse Excuses," including everything from "Parental Abuse Syndrome" to "Twinkie Defense" (though I recently read or heard something about a lawyer in the Twinkie case claiming there was no such defense and it's all an urban legend--or at any rate a distortion or confusion about the nature of the defense raised in that famous anti-Gay hate crime). If--excuse me, Barry, I mean *when*--you pin down the origin, let us know. If I see anything relevant I'll post it. James E. Clapp From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 7 11:01:28 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:01:28 -0400 Subject: "Abuse Excuse" In-Reply-To: <37ABB83B.22F7806B@wans.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, James E. Clapp wrote: > I have long been curious to know whether Alan M. Dershowitz coined this or > was merely using a phrase that had been around a while when he wrote his > book _The Abuse Excuse_ [full title: _The Abuse Excuse And Other Cop-outs, > Sob Stories, and Evasions of Responsibility_] (Little, Brown, 1994). It seems pretty clear from a Nexis search that Dershowitz coined the term. The earliest hit is in a transcript of CBS This Morning, Jan. 14, 1994, in which Dershowitz used _abuse excuse_ while discussing the Menendez case. Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From dumasb at UTK.EDU Sat Aug 7 11:05:23 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:05:23 -0400 Subject: frankenfoods Message-ID: from The Globe and Mail (Canada), this headlinE (editorial page D8 on Aug. 7, 1999): "France and Frankenfoods" (by Diane Johnson, Paris) (The word does not appear in the story.) Bethany From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 7 11:56:19 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:56:19 -0400 Subject: "Abuse Excuse" In-Reply-To: <37ABB83B.22F7806B@wans.net> Message-ID: All right, so I spoke too soon. Further research (on Dow Jones) retrieves a pre-Dershowitz citation: Danny R. Tipton wrote in a letter to the editor in the Dayton Daily News, 4 Dec. 1993, "Don't be so quick to believe every woman with an abuse excuse." And I notice that in Dershowitz's Jan. 16, 1994 column, he puts the phrase "abuse excuse" in quotation marks throughout the column. So it was probably not original with Dersh. Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Aug 7 16:26:29 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 12:26:29 EDT Subject: "Mutanto" (Monsanto of Frankenfood fame) Message-ID: This is from THE NEW YORK TIMES, 5 August 1999, pg. C2, col. 3: (BOX) _Opposition in Europe to "Frankenstein food."_ (...) In Europe, however, consumers have reacted negatively to genetically engineered foods. Buoyed by the media storm in Europe, activists in the United States have stepped up their assault on biotechnology in recent months, with groups like Greenpeace painting an ugly picture of Monsanto and the industry. One Internet Web site, for instance, has even taken to calling the company (col. 4--ed.) "Mutanto." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Aug 7 16:40:01 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 12:40:01 EDT Subject: "Business Babe" & "Money Honey" Message-ID: The headline in THE NEW YORK TIMES, 7 August 1999, pg. C1: _Moneyline's New Look_ _Yes, Willow Bay Is an Ex-Model, but One With an M.B.A._ Willow Bay is causing quite a stir already! She walked on the floor of Wall Street and nearly stopped trading. Take a look when she interviews the CEOs. I saw several start smiling and say, "Hey, Willow!" Then the male reporter asks a question--boy, that smile goes away. High cheekbones can do that. The first "business babe" or "money honey" was CNBC's Maria Bartiromo--I believe she was dubbed these names by the New York Post in 1997. 13 October 1997, HOUSTON CHRONICLE, D4:1--"In New York she's called the 'business babe.' Behind her back, financial types slug her 'Money Honey.' A recent magazine article dubbed her 'the Sharon Stone of business cable.' But to her loyal viewers on CNBC, Maria Bartiromo is taken far more seriously than that." 29 October 1997, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. B1--"...dubbed 'Money Honey' by New York's tabloids..." 10 November 1997, NEW YORK magazine, pp. 36-37--a story about Maria Bartiromo is titled "Money Honey." BTW: Songwriter Jesse Stone 97, had obituaries on 3 April 1999. He wrote such songs as "Money Honey," "Idaho," and "Shake, Rattle and Roll." From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Aug 7 17:45:56 1999 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 13:45:56 -0400 Subject: "Mutanto" (Monsanto of Frankenfood fame) Message-ID: A friend of mine who works at a food industry lobby says Monsanto is frequently referred to as "Monsatan" by anti-biotech activists. -----Original Message----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Date: Saturday, August 07, 1999 12:27 PM Subject: "Mutanto" (Monsanto of Frankenfood fame) > This is from THE NEW YORK TIMES, 5 August 1999, pg. C2, col. 3: > >(BOX) _Opposition in Europe to "Frankenstein food."_ > >(...) In Europe, however, consumers have reacted negatively to genetically engineered foods. Buoyed by the media storm in Europe, activists in the United States have stepped up their assault on biotechnology in recent months, with groups like Greenpeace painting an ugly picture of Monsanto and the industry. One Internet Web site, for instance, has even taken to calling the company (col. 4--ed.) "Mutanto." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn, garethb2 at streettech.com Jargon Watch Editor Wired From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Aug 8 01:56:11 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 21:56:11 EDT Subject: Dix notes & Dixie (a false etymology) Message-ID: I ran "dix note" and "dix notes" and "dixies" through the Making of America database, Accessible Archives, Historical Newspapers Online, and I think one other database. I added "note" so I wouldn't get ole General Dix. There were no relevant hits. Actually, I don't think there were ANY hits! There is therefore, in my opinion, ZERO chance that "dixie" comes from dix (ten dollar) notes. There is a minstrel named Dixey from Philadelphia to consider. I thought I discussed him here before. Maybe some other time I'll find my papers... From michael.gottlieb at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 8 02:30:52 1999 From: michael.gottlieb at YALE.EDU (Michael K. Gottlieb) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 22:30:52 -0400 Subject: "Abuse Excuse" In-Reply-To: <37ABB83B.22F7806B@wans.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, James E. Clapp wrote: > "Twinkie Defense" (though I recently read or heard something about a > lawyer in the Twinkie case claiming there was no such defense and it's all > an urban legend--or at any rate a distortion or confusion about the nature > of the defense raised in that famous anti-Gay hate crime). My understanding, based on what I've heard from those involved in the case, is that Dan White's sugar intake leading up to the double murder (his consumption of Twinkies) was mentioned as an off-hand remark by one of the testifying doctors and the later exaggerations were a result of the public shock at the success of White's diminished capacity defense. The defense, however, was not at all based or dependent on White's Twinkie habits. From dmuschel at MAIL.GCSU.EDU Sun Aug 8 11:15:15 1999 From: dmuschel at MAIL.GCSU.EDU (David Muschell) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 07:15:15 -0400 Subject: Dix notes & Dixie (a false etymology) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Your use of "false" in the subject line has a definitive (as well as pejorative) connotation, though the message seems to indicate there is still room for doubt and, thus, further research. At 09:56 PM 8/7/99 EDT, you wrote: > I ran "dix note" and "dix notes" and "dixies" through the Making of >America database, Accessible Archives, Historical Newspapers Online, and I >think one other database. I added "note" so I wouldn't get ole General Dix. > There were no relevant hits. Actually, I don't think there were ANY hits! > There is therefore, in my opinion, ZERO chance that "dixie" comes from dix >(ten dollar) notes. > There is a minstrel named Dixey from Philadelphia to consider. I thought >I discussed him here before. Maybe some other time I'll find my papers... > > David Muschell Box 44 Dept. of English, Speech, and Journalism Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-445-5556 dmuschel at mail.gcsu.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Aug 9 00:22:47 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:22:47 EDT Subject: As many (as possible) Message-ID: This sounds really weird to me, too. If it hasn't been recorded before in American English, it would certainly be worth a note in AMERICAN SPEECH, if someone wants to do the checking and write the note! 's message about Kenya should be checked as well. On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Brian Good wrote: > I don't recall ever hearing or seeing this omission before, but now I > have come across it three times in the past month or so. The speaker > says "as many" while leaving off the "as possible" part. It really > sticks out for me because it sort of grates on my nerves.... I'm left to > complete the "as possible" in my head. Here's where I've heard/seen it: > > McSweeney's Internet Tendency, "Four Dreams of Gergen," by Paul > Maliszewski: > http://www.mcsweeneys.net/1999/06/14dreams.html > "...Lewis Lapham appears. He says, Provide as many correct and > acceptable spellings of the leader of Libya." > > On a plane before takeoff (repeated twice!): > "In order to help conserve overhead bin space, please put as many bags > under the seat in front of you." > > On a radio station in Seattle: > "We're trying to get as many people to call in and tell us about > their favorite movies." > > Is this a new trend or have I just never noticed it before? Is there > someone on some TV show who has started speaking this way? > > Brian From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 9 00:45:04 1999 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 17:45:04 -0700 Subject: As many (as possible) Message-ID: i passed brian good's original message on to john rickford and tom wasow, the senior authors of an article on AS FAR AS in Language a few years ago. they hadn't noticed this use of AS MANY. wasow did a quick search of a large corpus and came up with a whole pile of examples, mostly indicating that searching is challenging, since there are many reasons why AS MANY might not have a following AS X phrase; for instance, the missing AS X phrase might be anaphoric (THEY SAW A LOT OF BIRDS, BUT I DIDN'T SEE AS MANY). i suspect that there are more bg-type examples out there that we just haven't noticed, and rickford is inclined to think so too. it sounds to me like good article-fodder (as ron butters suggests), if not thesis-fodder. faculty members, speak to your students... arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), never short of thesis-fodder, often short of people to help with the farm work From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 9 01:31:43 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 21:31:43 EDT Subject: Dix notes & Dixie (a false etymology) Message-ID: A followup: The "dix notes" theory was first mentioned about 1906. All throughout 1859-1900, when people brought up ANY explanation for "dixie" they could POSSIBLY think of, the "dix notes" theory was NEVER mentioned! I have one or two articles about "dix notes" in my papers. The notes themselves were never very popular, even within Louisiana. Plus, Dan Emmett wrote "Dixie Land" in New York City. The song "Dixie Land" reached New Orleans in 1860 (a version of it was published there)--again, "dix notes" was never mentioned. It's not just that "dix notes" had ZERO hits on my 19th century databases--there are a whole range of factors to exclude this etymology from any serious consideration of "dixie." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 9 02:03:37 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 22:03:37 EDT Subject: Stock-breakers Message-ID: Two "stock-breaker" postings were made on alt.peeves on 7-30-99, right after the Atlanta day trader tragedy. On poster wrote: The cause of the incident is obvious; we must stop our youth from being sucked into the dangerous undertow of this strange sub-culture that calls its members "stock-breakers." It's Sunday, so I can't get to a library to check "stock-breakers" on various databases. I don't think it's very popular, but it's one to watch. From rkm at SLIP.NET Mon Aug 9 07:12:55 1999 From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 00:12:55 -0700 Subject: "Abuse Excuse" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:30 PM -0400 8/7/99, Michael K. Gottlieb wrote: >On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, James E. Clapp wrote: > >> "Twinkie Defense" (though I recently read or heard something about a >> lawyer in the Twinkie case claiming there was no such defense and it's all >> an urban legend--or at any rate a distortion or confusion about the nature >> of the defense raised in that famous anti-Gay hate crime). > >My understanding, based on what I've heard from those involved in the >case, is that Dan White's sugar intake leading up to the double murder >(his consumption of Twinkies) was mentioned as an off-hand remark by one >of the testifying doctors and the later exaggerations were a result of >the public shock at the success of White's diminished capacity defense. >The defense, however, was not at all based or dependent on White's Twinkie >habits. Thought I'd ask my husband, a forensic psychologist, to perhaps clarify the subject a bit. Rima Martin Blinder, MD, was the psychiatrist who tried to explain how hypoglycemia could lead to a diminished capacity. It was part of his report, & can be read in his book. The jury understood the notion, & rendered a verdict accordingly. DC is still an important part of legal decision making, it just isn't codified as such. In most cases, DC is really a mitigating factor, to be considered in sentencing rather than in verdict making. However, when level of intent is important, the ability of the def to FORM that intent becomes part of the verdict. rkm From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 9 17:36:29 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 13:36:29 EDT Subject: Speaking tour Message-ID: "Listening tour" (which our first lady is on right now--she's not campaigning, mind you) was inspired by the earlier "speaking tour." I requested Peter Tamony materials on "listening tour," but haven't heard back yet. "Speaking tour" is not properly recorded. Two early hits on an OCLC WorldCat title search: The tour of President Harrison to the Pacific coast, scenes and incidents of his recption in the souther states (1891) Theodore Roosevelt's western speaking tour of 1903 (1955) The Periodical Contents Index turned up 28 hits, mostly in PUBLIC, volumes 9-11, 1906-1911: Bryan's Speaking Tour, PUBLIC, Sept. 29, 1906, pg. 609. Mr. Bryan's Speaking Tour, PUBLIC, Oct. 20, 1906, pg. 677. Mr. Taft's Speaking Tour, PUBLIC, Sept. 25, 1908, pg. 611. (et al.) Historical Newspapers Online has "speaking tour" from 1917 (LONDON TIMES). The American Memory database has: Anna Howard Shaw (1847-1919) autobiography (1915)--(...) After touring the country in a series of freelance speaking engagements, she accepted Francis Willard's invitation to head the Franchise Department of the WCTU from 1888 to 1892. Group of businessmen listen to Farm Security Administration borrower tell of progress he has made. During this "Know your farmer" tour visited six Farm Security Administration borrowers. Neshoba County, Mississippi. (August 1940). From mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU Mon Aug 9 18:51:37 1999 From: mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 13:51:37 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: _____________________________________________ Mai Kuha mkuha at bsuvc.bsu.edu Department of English (765) 285-8410 Ball State University Muncie IN 47306 From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Mon Aug 9 19:19:20 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:19:20 -0400 Subject: ice tea Message-ID: Over the weekend I saw a sign for "Hawaiian Shave Ice". This was a commercial color job, which I think I saw in a store window (maybe in Woodstock, NY), provided, I guess, by the company that provided either the prepared snack or the machinery (I didn't go in to look or order one) to the store. I actually backpedaled a few steps to be sure I'd seen what I thought I'd seen, "shave ice" without the "d". -- Mark From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Mon Aug 9 19:45:05 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:45:05 -0400 Subject: Economist Style Guide Message-ID: >From the Scout Report. The Economist Style Guide http://www.economist.com/editorial/freeforall/library/styleguide/ Based on the hardback book of the same name, this free online guide will help users clean up and clarify their writing. Written by Foreign Editor John Grimond, the _Style Guide_ is given to all journalists on _The Economist_ staff. Topics addressed in the _Guide_ include unnecessary words, jargon, Americanisms, abbreviations, capitals, punctuation, spelling, and titles, among others. Users may browse the content via a clickable table of contents. Entries are concise and almost all include examples. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/quickmail Size: 1518 bytes Desc: not available URL: From AAllan at AOL.COM Mon Aug 9 19:57:58 1999 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:57:58 EDT Subject: Teacher education proposal Message-ID: This came from the American Council of Learned Societies, to which ADS belongs. If you should be interested, please communicate directly with Maureen Grolnick - not to the whole ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf ---------------- Teacher Education: Many of you have expressed an interest in (concern about) the content preparation of K-12 teachers. I would like to pursue that interest by seeking funding for a year-long "roundtable" on Teacher Education and the Humanities. The general idea: a series of three or four sessions over the course of a year; participation from the societies (including at least one or two scholars who have worked with schools of education), teacher education and the K-12 schools (total group size not to exceed 15); paper(s) and a proposal for an implementation project as an outcome. Please contact me immediately -- or sooner! -- if you are interested in hearing more. Our best bet for funding has an October 15 proposal deadline. I'll do the writing, but I will need to convene those interested -- in-person and/or electronically - between now and September 15 to develop the substance. Maureen Maureen Grolnick Education Program Officer American Council of Learned Societies 228 East 45th Street New York, NY 10017-3398 212-697-1505 ext. 125 Fax. 212-949-8058 e-mail: maureen at acls.org ACLS Website: http://www.acls.org From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Tue Aug 10 01:11:56 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:11:56 -0700 Subject: Dix notes & Dixie (a false etymology) Message-ID: Thanks very much to all of you who have provided information on the possible origins of Dixie. I have enjoyed all the interesting information, and have forwarded the emails to my colleague who talked about the monetary origin. This is a great list! Regards, Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 10 06:02:36 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 02:02:36 EDT Subject: Lime Rickey; Money Honey; Public Defender Message-ID: LIME RICKEY The NEW YORK TIMES, City Section, 1 August 1999, pg. 5, cols. 1-2, had a story about "Lime Rickey, Drink of Yore." It stated that the fresh lime, seltzer and cherry syrup drink was named after Col. Joe Rickey, a turn-of-the-century Washington lobbyist. The earliest "rickey" we have is the "gin rickey," from 1895. The NEW YORK TIMES reported on 24 April 1903, pg. 1, col. 6: "Col. Joseph Karr (Kyle?--ed.) Rickey, famous throughout the country as the originator of the concoction bearing his name, died suddenly yesterday at his home at 124 West Twenty-fifth Street." I haven't checked the Washington Post (the NYU library now closes at 7 p.m., making it impossible for me to use it this month), but this was in the NEW YORK HERALD, 24 April 1903, pg. 5, col. 2: _COLONEL RICKEY_ _TAKES HIS LIFE_ _Poison Kills the Man Who First_ _Compounded Drink Ap-_ _proved by Statesmen._ Colonel Joseph Kyle (Karr?--ed.) Rickey, for twenty-five years well known among politicans the country over as "Joe" Rickey and the originator of the "gin rickey," committed suicide by swallowing a solution of carbolic acid a few minutes before eleven o'clock yesterday morning. (...) During the early seventies he became active in democratic politics in Missouri and went to Washington, where for twenty years he was conspicuous. For many years he was the proprietor of a cafe on Pennsylvania avenue near Thirteenth street, and it was there the "gin rickey" came into existence. Colonel Rickey always said that one of his barkeepers was the real originator of the "rickey." "Bill and I knew about the gin and lime juice," he would say to his friends, "for a long time, but the thing never became famous until one day Henry Watterson (Famous editor of the Louisville Courier-Journal who coined "the Windy City"--ed.) came in for a drink in a great hurry, and in trying to make a new bartender understand what he wanted shouted, 'Oh, confound it, make me one of those--you know--one of those Joe Rickeys.' After that the 'rickey' became one of the institutions of the country." -------------------------------------------------------- MONEY HONEY (continued) The battle of CNBC's "Business Center" (with Maria Bartiromo) and CNN's "Moneyline" (now with Willow Bay) began on 14 October 1997. The NEW YORK POST of that date, pg. 88, col. 3: He (Tyler Mathisen) was paired with Bartiromo--dubbed CNBC's "Money Honey"--after a long screening process. The English Drama database shows a "Prince Hoary" as the author of THE PARAGRAPH: A MUSICAL ENTERTAINMENT IN TWO ACTS (1804): Latin--Satin Money--Honey Scholars--Dollars (This combination escapes me--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- PUBLIC DEFENDER I've been going through newspapers from the early decades of this century (for "jaywalking" and others) and ran across "public defender" mentions. "Public Defenders" is in the HARVARD LAW REVIEW, vol. 10, 1896/1897, pg. 514. I don't know what Fred Shapiro sent in to the OED. From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Tue Aug 10 15:54:03 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:54:03 -0400 Subject: Dixie Message-ID: Merely some notes on Mason & Dixon items in MOA, plus a following editorial comment. The following citations are not meant to be of academic quality, merely rough notes. (Abbreviations for states are mine, as are any oversights/omissions.) If further detail is necessary, please refer to the MOA database, with the search site being at: http://www.umdl.umich.edu/moa/moa_search.html Searching MOA: -- first mention of "Mason and Dixon's line" is in _Southern Literary Messenger_, Richmond, VA, August 1834. -- "Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon", in _Message from the governor of Maryland, . . ._, Washington, 1850. -- "Mason & Dixon's line", in _Debow's Review. . . ._, New Orleans, Nov. 1850. -- "Mason Dixon's line" in Frederick Douglas' _My Bondage and My Freedom_, NY, 1857. First usage of Mason/Dixon combination is in 1834. Next is in year-block from 1840-45. Peaks in year-block of 1855-1860; ending in year-block of 1895-1900. 'Southern'-based publications seem to be the first users (in the MOA database) of the Mason/Dixon combination. An editorial note, from a non-historian: at the time of the Mason-Dixon survey, Delaware was seen as being the lower three counties of Penn. Thus, both the western and southmost lines for the State of Delaware would have been part of the Mason-Dixon survey. (The survey serving to distinguish the boundary lines between Pennsylvania and Maryland.) In 1776, Delaware declared itself to be free of the British Empire, the First State, and established a state government that was separate from Pennsylvania. In the 2nd half of 1776, the Mason-Dixon line would have served to differentiate the lower boundaries of Pennsylvania and Delaware from the northern boundary of Maryland. It seems that, for the sake of convenience, many dictionaries define the Mason-Dixon line as being located between Pennsylvania and Maryland, which would have been the technically correct definition in 1767. Not sure that such would be correct today, except in the common usage sense. Some information on Delaware history is presented at: http://www.state.de.us/facts/history/delhist.htm Again, merely some thoughts. George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 10 22:40:17 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:40:17 EDT Subject: Fwd: Origin of the Crouch Start Message-ID: For you lexicographers (at Yale and elsewhere), this is additional information on the "crouch start." --Barry Popik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Davis, Erin" Subject: RE: Origin of the "crouch start" in sprint races (Long!) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:38:14 -0500 Size: 3597 URL: From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 11 00:59:47 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:59:47 PDT Subject: Mason and Dixon Message-ID: The only line surveyed by Mason and Dixon was the east-west line that forms the border between Pennsylvania and Maryland. It is not for the sake of convenience that dictionaries define it so. My source for this is a detailed (and complicated) chapter in "The Romance of the Boundaries" by John T. Faris (1926). Delaware was granted to William Penn in 1682, and not as part of the Pennsylvania charter of the previous year. Faris writes, "...while after 1693 Delaware had a separate legislature, and, after 1710, its own legislative council, the Governor of Pennsylvania continued to be the chief executive of Delaware, until 1776." This close relationship meant that the boundary between Delaware and Pennsylvania was not disputed. On the other hand, Maryland did dispute its own boundary with both Pennsylvania and Delaware. By 1709, Maryland had given up its claim in the Delaware direction, leaving the Maryland/Pennsylvania boundary as the line of contention. A decree of 1750 fixed the boundaries of all three future states where they are today. The only (semi)circular state boundary in the U.S. was then laid out (centered on New Castle with a radius of 12 miles), dividing Pennsylvania from Delaware. Again, Faris: "The slowness of local surveyors [in marking the PA/MD line] led to the importation from London of Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon, who, between 1763 and 1768, ran the line which has since been known by their names, to a point 244 miles westward from the northeast corner of Maryland. Their work was so well done that when, in the years 1901 to 1903, a commision authorized by the legislatures of Pennsylvania and Maryland relocated the line, they had every reason to commend the surveyors who labored more than a century before them. Their chief work was the relocation of monuments which had disappeared, that the line might be plain in all its length." DEJ "Somewhere below that Dixon line..." -- Jimmie Rodgers _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Aug 11 01:55:08 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:55:08 EDT Subject: Millionaire Message-ID: "My name is Elmer J. Fudd. Millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht." --somewhere in ADS-L archives. In the middle of November, PBS will show its much-awaited documentary, NEW YORK. A book will come out a little before that; the web site (www.wnet.org/newyork/menu.html) is being prepared now and is supposed to be up by the end of August. I told Ric Burns and his staff at Steeplechase Films about my work and the work of others here (Big Apple, Great White Way, Yankees, shyster, hooker--you can't do a New York documentary without 'em). He couldn't be bothered to reply. The taxi cab quiz game is currently up--in part--at cosine.wnet.org:9001/nygame/Master.po?x=361&y=278. This is one of the questions: Question: New York's phenomenal growth in the 1850s gave rise to this new term: A. "Skinflint" B. "Millionaire" C. "Venture capitalist" Answer "A" or "C" and you get, "Give it another try, why don't you?" Answer "B" and you get "Right you are!" and: Correct! From Peter Cooper to Cornelius Venderbilt, New York saw dozens of millionaires created in the boom-decade of the 1850s. But the word "millionaire" doesn't come from New York City in the 1850s! The first hit on the Making of America database is the SOUTHERN LITERARY MESSENGER of 1836--discussing a "millionaire" from Boston. The BDE has it in English from 1826, in Benjamin Disraeli's VIVIAN GREY. Disraeli borrowed it from the French word, _millionnaire_. Ah, but the web site is just starting... From bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET Wed Aug 11 03:50:56 1999 From: bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET (Bernard W. Kane) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 23:50:56 -0400 Subject: in my stead Message-ID: Recent posting to the List quoted obsolescent usage "in my stead." Reminded me and maybe some other List members of old, old recording by Lawrence Tibbett (RCA Victor?) of number from The King's Henchman, libretto by Edna St. Vincent Millay, music by Deems Taylor? one chorus of which goes Oh, Caesar, great wert thou And Julius was thy name, But I would not stand in thy stead, For I'd liever be quick than dead. Bernie Kane word finder From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Wed Aug 11 15:47:17 1999 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:47:17 -0400 Subject: in my stead Message-ID: Of course, "lieve" or "lief" is also obsolescent, or even obsolete, as is "quick" in the sense used here--so the last two lines would be virtually incomprehensible to moderns! But related to "stead" is "lieu," which is increasingly misinterpreted; I recently had a student write "in lieu of" when she clearly meant "with reference to." At 11:50 PM 8/10/99 -0400, you wrote: >Recent posting to the List quoted obsolescent usage "in my stead." Reminded >me and maybe some other List members of old, old recording by Lawrence >Tibbett (RCA Victor?) of number from The King's Henchman, libretto by Edna >St. Vincent Millay, music by Deems Taylor? one chorus of which goes >Oh, Caesar, great wert thou >And Julius was thy name, >But I would not stand in thy stead, >For I'd liever be quick than dead. >Bernie Kane >word finder > From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Wed Aug 11 16:09:31 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:09:31 -0400 Subject: Mason and Dixon Message-ID: The following is a result of a question that came to mind when a list-question about the origin of 'Dixie' was raised. My question related to the first use of Mason and Dixon line. A further question came about when I saw that many sources defined the line as merely being the current dividing line between Pennsylvania (of today) and Maryland. >From my Delaware history classes, I had learned that the Mason and Dixon line also served as a dividing point between Delaware (of today) and Maryland. The various dictionary definitions that I've seen tend to describe a single line, which exists between Pennsylvania (today) and Maryland, without noting that such a usage was probably derived well after the time of the Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon survey. Perhaps the dictionaries are correct, and the state archive sites (below) are presenting possibly misleading information. My original posted concern should have been labeled, when did the present-day dictionary definitions come into use? According to a Britannica volume (#7, 1991: p. 913), "the term 'Mason and Dixon Line' was first used in debates leading to the Missouri Compromise (1820)." My concern would be with the point at which the line came to be defined as being merely the East-West (West-East) line between Pennsylvania & Maryland. The original survey would have also included a North to South line, along the western edge of the lower part of Pennsylvania (today = Delaware), and a further West-East component, at the lower border of Pennsylvania (today = Delaware). At some point in time, probably for the sake of convenience (in debates), the line came to mean merely the dividing point between Pennsylvania (of today) and Maryland. [The details from the maps (cited below) distinctly show the 'three lower counties', or Delaware, as being part of the Mason & Dixon survey.] Going by the information presented in the state archive sites (below), it is not clear that the original Mason and Dixon line was merely the dividing point between today's Pennsylvania and Maryland. In the various Delaware history classes that I took as a student (grade school, high school, & college) in Delaware, the Mason-Dixon line coursed around both the western and southern borders of the state. Various on-site historical markers affirmed the information given in those history classes. (I've 'lost' the notes of those classes, memory has to serve; along with information from a recent discussion with another student of that era.) Having worked in land surveying, many, many years ago (in Delaware), I realize that a survey can incorporate the results of another survey, without replicating the work of the other survey. Perhaps the work of Mason & Dixon was merely incorporated with the work of others, concerning the Delaware (today) portion of their work. [Or, historians may have made the 'incorporation'?] For that matter, Mason & Dixon never actually reached the westernmost edge of Pennsylvania. In the Microsoft Encarta 98 Encyclopedia, at the entry for Mason-Dixon Line, is a map graphic which shows a line that defines the border (today) of Pennsylvania/Maryland and the western border of Delaware (today). It does not show a southern (Mason-Dixon) border for Delaware. After mentioning Mason and Dixon's work, it notes that "Further work was done in 1773 and 1779." >From a site for the Maryland State Archives: "1768. Details from the map of the boundary survey between Maryland and Pennsylvania by Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon. SPECIAL COLLECTIONS (Maryland State Archives Map Collection), MSA SC 1427-74-1/2. http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/msa/speccol/sc2200/sc2221/000017/000013/html/0000.html (general listing of maps, including "detail of Delaware & Maryland border") Further map detail, of the three lower counties (today = Delaware), at: http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/msa/speccol/sc2200/sc2221/000017/000013/images/d005018b.gif Additional discussion at: http://mdhs.org/donacq.html#plan (click on the illustration that shows the Delaware border) At a state of Delaware site: "Delaware's boundaries were surveyed in 1763-68 by the noted English scientists, Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon." Earlier note: "After 1682, a long dispute ensued between William Penn and Lord Baltimore of the Province of Maryland as to the exact dominion controlled by Penn on the lower Delaware. . . The dispute continued between the heirs of Baltimore and Penn until almost the end of the colonial period." http://www.state.de.us/facts/history/delhist.htm Overall, this note is not meant to be a criticism of any other source of info. If the dictionaries are correct, then the information presented by various state archives may be in error or incomplete. George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Aug 11 17:08:27 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:08:27 EDT Subject: "Dixie" panned; "Urban" Starbucks Message-ID: "URBAN" STARBUCKS The cartoon "This Modern World" by Tom Tomorrow (17 August 1999 VILLAGE VOICE and other papers: These days, it seems like a lot of people are trying to talk about race without mentioning _race_... ..which has led to an upswing in the use of certain _euphemisms_, such as "inner city"--or the ever-popular "at risk youth"... ..not to mention "urban"...for instance, when a Starbucks recently opened in _Harlem_, the company proudly announced that it was their first "urban" store... PENGUIN: ...And so all those other Starbucks in major cities across the country...? MAN: Well, they're in cities--but they are not "urban"--if you know what I mean! They're "middle class"--if you get my drift! Their customers are not "at risk"--if you see what I-- PENGUIN: Stop it. You're making my head hurt. -------------------------------------------------------- "DIXIE" PANNED Today's NEW YORK DAILY NEWS has a story by the Associated Press it titled "Rehnquist 'Dixie' panned" on page 34: WASHINGTON--The nation's largest organization of black lawyers wants Chief Justice William Rehnquist to quit singing "Dixie," a song it calls a "symbol of slavery and oppression." The 18,000-member National Bar Association passed a resolution at its recent convention in Philadelphia urging Rehnquist to "refrain from such offensive behavior in the future." A Supreme Court spokesman said yesterday that Rehnquist had no comment on the resolution. Rehnquist, the nation's top federal judge, led judges and lawyers in a rendition of "Dixie" during a conference in Hot Springs, Va., in late June. He attends the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals conference each year, and each year leads a sing-along. The annual event has for several years included "Dixie," associated with the Southern cause during the Civil War, as well as the "Battle Hymn of the Republic," which is associated with the North. So, the big question here is, next year, WHAT IS CHIEF JUSTICE REHNQUIST GONNA SING?? Maybe something from the Supremes? Baby love, my baby love... From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Wed Aug 11 17:46:18 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:46:18 -0400 Subject: Put the Smack Down Message-ID: Came across "Puts the Smack Down" in a headline and asked the author what he thought it meant. Here is his unsubstantiated response. >Basically, it's a slang term used typically among the young (as >most are); it means essentially "to use overwhelming force, >often suddenly and swifty, to achieve a goal or a victory." It >does not, however, necessarily indicate that victory was >achieved, merely that it was sought with sudden and often >excessive force. There are a bazillion hits on Altavista. A fan page for the Purdue Boilers defines "put the smack down" as "To deliver consistent, firm justice." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/quickmail Size: 1542 bytes Desc: not available URL: From promotion at BENJAMINS.COM Wed Aug 11 18:18:39 1999 From: promotion at BENJAMINS.COM (Andrew Gallinger) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:18:39 -0400 Subject: New Books from John Benjamins Publishing Message-ID: John Benjamins Publishing would like to call your attention to the following new titles in the field of dialect studies: URBAN JAMAICAN CREOLE: Variation in the Mesolect. Peter L. Patrick 1999 xii, 317 pp. Varieties of English Around the World, G17 US/Canada: 1 55619 448 X Price: USD 110.00 Rest of the World: 90 272 4875 3 Price: NLG 220.00 A synchronic sociolinguistic study of Jamaican Creole (JC) as spoken in urban Kingston, this work uses variationist methods to closely investigate two key concepts of Atlantic Creole studies: the mesolect, and the creole continuum. One major concern is to describe how linguistic variation patterns with social influences. Is there a linguistic continuum? How does it correlate with social factors? The complex organization of an urbanizing Caribbean society and the highly variable nature of mesolectal speech norms and behavior present a challenge to sociolinguistic variation theory. The second chief aim is to elucidate the nature of mesolectal grammar. Creole studies have emphasized the structural integrity of basilectal varieties, leaving the status of intermediate mesolectal speech in doubt. How systematic is urban JC grammar? What patterns occur when basilectal creole constructions alternate with acrolectal English elements? Contextual constraints on choice of forms support a picture of the mesolect as a single grammar, variable yet internally-ordered, which has evolved a fine capacity to serve social functions. Drawing on a year's fieldwork in a mixed-class neighborhood of the capital city, the author (a speaker of JC) describes the speech community's history, demographics, and social geography, locating speakers in terms of their social class, occupation, education, age, sex, residence, and urban orientation. The later chapters examine a recorded corpus for linguistic variables that are phono-lexical (palatal glides), phonological (consonant cluster simplification), morphological (past-tense inflection), and syntactic (pre-verbal tense and aspect marking), using quantitative methods of analysis (including Varbrul). The Jamaican urban mesolect is portrayed as a coherent system showing stratified yet regular linguistic behavior, embedded in a well-defined speech community; despite the incorporation of forms and constraints from English, it is quintessentially creole in character. -------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Gallinger Tel: (215) 836-1200 Publicity/Marketing Fax: (215) 836-1204 John Benjamins Publishing Co e-mail:promotion at benjamins.com PO Box 27519 Philadelphia PA 19118-0519 John Benjamins web site: http://www.benjamins.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Aug 11 21:29:46 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:29:46 EDT Subject: No Tamony "Listening/Speaking Tour" Message-ID: The Peter Tamony archives have no "listening tour" and no "speaking tour." Oh well. --Barry Popik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Moore, David F." Subject: RE: Speaking Tour Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:52:37 -0500 Size: 1758 URL: From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 11 21:39:52 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:39:52 -0400 Subject: Listening tour; In like Flynn In-Reply-To: <18661cd.24da4159@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > LISTENING TOUR > > Hillary Clinton is on a "listening tour" of New York State. I wrote to > her with a problem she could have solved--and got a form letter that didn't > listen to anything I said. > "Listening tour" is on the Dow Jones database from about 1983--anyone > have earlier? The earliest Nexis evidence is Miami Herald, March 14, 1982. Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 11 21:55:42 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:55:42 -0400 Subject: Speaking tour In-Reply-To: <8aca4e08.24e06b9d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 1999 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > "Speaking tour" is not properly recorded. Barry, I'm curious what you mean by "not properly recorded." Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 11 22:04:54 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:04:54 -0400 Subject: Dixie In-Reply-To: <37B04B1B.D4A41315@ark.ship.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Aug 1999, G S C wrote: > Searching MOA: > -- first mention of "Mason and Dixon's line" is in _Southern Literary > Messenger_, Richmond, VA, August 1834. Note that the Dictionary of Americanisms records _Mason and Dixon's line_ from 1779. Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 11 22:08:12 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:08:12 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Origin of the Crouch Start In-Reply-To: <4cb5d44c.24e20451@aol.com> Message-ID: Note that the OED has an earlier citation for _crouching start_ than any sent by the Hall of Fame. Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 11 22:17:04 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:17:04 -0400 Subject: Millionaire In-Reply-To: <453b0cd3.24e231fc@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > But the word "millionaire" doesn't come from New York City in the 1850s! > The first hit on the Making of America database is the SOUTHERN > LITERARY MESSENGER of 1836--discussing a "millionaire" from Boston. > The BDE has it in English from 1826, in Benjamin Disraeli's VIVIAN GREY. > Disraeli borrowed it from the French word, _millionnaire_. Thomas Jefferson used _millionnaire_ ("the poorest labourer stood on equal ground with the wealthiest millionnaire") in 1786. Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From PTcurtis at AOL.COM Thu Aug 12 05:48:33 1999 From: PTcurtis at AOL.COM (PTcurtis at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 01:48:33 EDT Subject: Abraham Lincolns tone of voice and accent Message-ID: I have always been curious as to how the Gettysburg address may have actually sounded when delivered by President Lincoln. Does any one know of any studies that may be able to reconstruct Lincolns voice based on stories and more scientific studies of his throat structure from photographs and dialect of his era and locality. Paul Curtis From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Aug 12 11:00:24 1999 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:00:24 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: Abraham Lincolns tone of voice and accent Message-ID: I am not aware of any such scientific studies. However, there is a website on which a recorded recollection by a man, William V. Rathvon, who heard the Gettyburg Address at the age of nine. It is from a 1938 recording on a 78 r.p.m. record. www.npr.org/progams/lnfsound/sound/990212.sow.html Regards, David K. Barnhart From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Thu Aug 12 11:21:53 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 06:21:53 -0500 Subject: in my stead Message-ID: Thanks--I'd never seen the comparative degree of "lief." ----- Original Message ----- From: Bernard W. Kane To: Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 10:50 PM Subject: in my stead > Recent posting to the List quoted obsolescent usage "in my stead." Reminded > me and maybe some other List members of old, old recording by Lawrence > Tibbett (RCA Victor?) of number from The King's Henchman, libretto by Edna > St. Vincent Millay, music by Deems Taylor? one chorus of which goes > Oh, Caesar, great wert thou > And Julius was thy name, > But I would not stand in thy stead, > For I'd liever be quick than dead. > Bernie Kane > word finder From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Aug 12 11:08:32 1999 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:08:32 -0400 Subject: Lincoln and the address Message-ID: The url should read: www.npr.org/programs/lnfsound/sound/990212.sow.html Sorry for the inconvenience. Please address flames for my inaccuracy to me rather than the list. David K. Barnhart Barnhart at highlands.com From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Aug 12 11:53:43 1999 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:53:43 -0400 Subject: further on Lincoln Message-ID: I am afraid my previous posting doesn't answer the question that was posted. I do recall somewhere either on the radio or from some other source that Lincoln was described as having a "higher" pitched voice than one might expect. I do not know if that description could be perhaps related to the possible (?) "midwestern twang" so often ridiculed in us natives of Illinois. Regards, David Barnhart at highlands.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 12 14:11:31 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:11:31 EDT Subject: Rickey; Iced Tea; Jazz Message-ID: RICKEY (continued) Another "rickey" (I'll have to check the Louisville Courier-Journal and the Washington Star when I go to the Library of Congress next) is in the WASHINGTON POST, 24 April 1903, pg. 1, col. 7: _COL. RICKEY A SUICIDE_ _Draught of Poison Closes Noted_ _Character's career._ _POPULAR DRINK GIVEN NAME_ New York, April 23.--Col. Joseph Kyle Rickey, said to be the originator of the famous drink known as the "gin rickey," died to-day in his home at 24 West Twenty-fifth street. (...) Col. Rickey's death will be mourned in Washington, where he lived and was a famous character about town. To this day, in Shoomaker's place, noted on Newspaper Row, the sign appears that in this place the rickey was discovered. Col. Joseph Kyle Rickey was born in St. Joe, Mo., sixty-one years ago. He came to Washington as a lobbyist in 1883. While here, Mr. Herzog, of Shoomaker & Herzog, on E street, died and the place was offered for sale. Mr. August W. Noack, a member of the firm, urged Col. Rickey to purchase the business, which he did. (...) _Origin of the Rickey._ Col. Rickey, before he became the owner of the resort on E street, would go into Shoomaker's and ask George Williamson, who is still there, for a drink composed of "Belle of Nelson whisky," a piece of ice, and a siphon of seltzer. Fred Mussey (Muesey?--ed.), now gone, watched Col. Rickey indulge in these beverages. He finally took the recipe to New York, and there called for a "Rickey drink," which he explained and got, and thus spread its fame. One day Representative Hatch, of Missouri, went into Shoomaker's and asked for "one of those Rickey drinks, with a half of a lime in it." This was given Mr. Hatch and the rickey was complete. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ICED TEA (continued) This is from the Tea Council of the USA, Inc., 420 Lexington Avenue, NYC 10170 (their postage meter has "1899-1999 100 Years of Service to the Tea Industry"): _CELEBRATE NINETY-FIVE YEARS OF ICED TEA DURING_ _NATIONAL ICED TEA MONTH IN JUNE_ NEW YORK, NY, June 1999--When temperatures soared during the 1904 World's Fair in St. Louis, tea promoter Richard Blechynden added ice to the popular beverage and created an instant favorite. Today, Americans consume more than 2.2 billion gallons of tea a year and 80% of that is served over ice. As iced tea nears its platinum anniversary, its popularity continues to grow. (...) What better time to celebrate the tasty thirst quencher than the start of summer during _National Iced Tea Month_ in June. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- JAZZ (continued) Ken Burns (of the PBS documentaries CIVIL WAR and BASEBALL and the brother of Ric Burns, of the upcoming PBS documentary NEW YORK) is currently doing a long documentary on the history of "jazz." Gerald Cohen should try to contact him--I don't know if Burns intends to credit any of Peter Tamony's work. PBS documentaries, as you all know, are used as an educational tool. Students watching THE STORY OF ENGLISH, for example, can learn that the term "O. K." came from Africa.... From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Aug 12 16:32:22 1999 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter McGraw) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:32:22 -0700 Subject: Release(d?) Message-ID: O.k., this isn't about dialects, but it is about American speech, and I hope some of you will indulge me by serving as linguistic guinea pigs. When, for example, an adjunct is hired to reduce the teaching load of a regular faculty member so that said regular can perform some other task, does your gut feeling as native speakers of American English prompt you to call the hours in question "released time" or "release time," or to accept both equally? The same goes for space in an existing building when a department moves to a new building: Is it "released space," "release space" or either one? When I first encountered "release time" in writing, my first impulse was to edit it to "released time," but when I thought about it, I couldn't see why they weren't both equally valid, even if different, grammatical approaches to the same thing. (Obviously one factor at work is that most speakers would probably pronounce both the same--especially in the case of "-time"--and might analyze the underlying form either way for the purpose of representing it in writing.) Apart from the issue of Sprachgefuehl, does anyone have a sense of one or the other gaining the ascendency in written usage at present? It seems to me that "release time" is probably gaining ground while my own "released time" is becoming somewhat old fashioned. (You know you're getting old when....") Thanks for any reactions. Peter Mc. ---------------------- Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon pmcgraw at linfield.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Aug 12 18:07:23 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:07:23 EDT Subject: Release(d?) Message-ID: in reply to : I prefer RELEASED TIME and RELEASED SPACE. RELEASE TIME sounds to me like it means 'time when the baloons (or whatever) will be released'. RELEASE SPACE doesn't compute for me at all. I associate RELEASED TIME with an underlying [TIME which has been RELEASED]", so a PPart marker is necessary for me. RELEASED SPACE works the same way for me. The final stop does of course get deleted in pronunciation, but in all but the most informal writing, one rarely indicates pronunciation, except in a few fixed items such as DON'T--and then usually an apostrophe is used. I often see HANDICAP PARKING on parking-lot signs, which strikes me as a "mistake." I'm not sure that such variant spellings are increasing--how could one possibly know? My memory is that Tom Cresswell was amused by such omissions thirty years ago, and that we have had several discussions of the lost PPart -ED on ADSL, but I could be wrong. A great many things amused Tom Cresswell. I miss his wisdom greatly. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Aug 12 18:43:02 1999 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter McGraw) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:43:02 -0700 Subject: Release(d?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:07:23 EDT RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > in reply to : > > I prefer RELEASED TIME and RELEASED SPACE. RELEASE TIME sounds to me > like it means 'time when the baloons (or whatever) will be released'. > I often see HANDICAP PARKING on parking-lot signs, > which strikes me as a "mistake." Even though I'm adjusting to "release time," "handicap parking," which I've also seen, sounds like something they might need at Lourdes for those who leave their infirmities behind. (Of course the two are not really analogous, since "released time" does not mean "time for the released," and "handicapped parking" does not mean something like a parking area with crooked or inaccessible spaces.) ---------------------- Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon pmcgraw at linfield.edu From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Thu Aug 12 20:18:55 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:18:55 -0700 Subject: hot dog video Message-ID: I think someone was hoping to record the PBS special on the hot dog. Well, I received a video catalogue of PBS programs, and the cover feature is..."A Hot Dog Program: An All-American celebration of some fabulous and phenomenally popular little sausages in their soft little buns." (The description sounds vaguely obscene.) The video is approximately 60 minutes, and retails for $19.98 (why not $19.99?) from PBS Home Video, catalogue item #A3648, call 1-800-645-4727 to order. Looks like shipping and handling (or "another way to get more money out of you") is $4.75, plus sales tax in CA, NY, and VA. Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From dumasb at UTK.EDU Thu Aug 12 20:21:13 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:21:13 -0400 Subject: Seeing Info re team teaching Message-ID: We have a faculty shortage and we don't have anyone who can teach Lx 200, Intro to Lx. We are thinking of team-teaching the course (35 students) with 4-5 individual faculty members, each responsible for a specified part of the content and a single graded activity, paper or project. If you have experience participating in or coordinating such a joint venture, please share your experience. I have never done this before and will serve as coordinator if we do this. Thanks, Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 12 21:33:06 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:33:06 EDT Subject: Millionaire (continued) Message-ID: (From the Eighteenth Century Literature database.) Tobias George Smollett's HUMPHREY CLINKER (1771) has "...but the millionaires having more zeal than discretion..." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Aug 13 00:12:50 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:12:50 EDT Subject: Carpetbagger (continued) Message-ID: This is from the NEW YORK HERALD (editorials), 22 April 1868, pg. 8, col. 2: The field for radical revision in the Southern States will give employment to a new horde of "carpet baggers." (Earlier cites if I have time to get to a library after work and before the 6:45 p.m. weekday closing time.) From GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA Fri Aug 13 01:18:21 1999 From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA (No Name Available) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:18:21 PDT Subject: Seeing Info re team teaching In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bethany: We did this for a number of years in our LING 100 class, typically over 100 students. Each of us in the department (6 or 7 at that time) took a section (as you suggest) and a quiz was given at the end of that time period, marked by the TA's. One year we tried having just 2 hours of lecture per week, and then dividing the class into groups of 25 or so for tutorials with a TA. This didn't work as well as the 3 hours plus office hours for the TAs. But the students liked having the experience of meeting all the different faculty that they might have later on in a specific course. We only had to give it up as our graduate programme expanded and faculty members became overloaded. For two years, Tom Hess and I team-taught the course, each of us doing our best bits in two separate sections; for example, I might be doing dialectology in one section while he did native languages in the other. For the basics like phonetics and morphology, we both taught at the same time in our own sections. Now we have three large sections of 100A (first half, basics), 2 in the fall term and one in the spring, and one of 100B (historical, socio, etc.) in the spring. When we have enough people around, we then give a 100B in the fall. The main answer to your question is yes, it worked for us. Cheers, Barbara Harris. From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Aug 13 10:00:01 1999 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 06:00:01 -0400 Subject: 1st Dagwood Message-ID: Has anyone been following Blondie from the beginning? I am looking for the exact date of the appearance of the Dagwood sandwich. Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion Barnhart at highlands.com From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Fri Aug 13 12:07:57 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:07:57 -0500 Subject: 1st Dagwood Message-ID: I seem to recall the Dagwood sandwich from the days when Alexander was called "Baby Dumpling." I am sure that we celebrated VE day with Dagwood sandwiches. It was around the time when Junior Tracy's mother worked in a restaurant shaped like a coffee pot. ----- Original Message ----- From: Barnhart To: Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 5:00 AM Subject: 1st Dagwood > Has anyone been following Blondie from the beginning? I am looking for > the exact date of the appearance of the Dagwood sandwich. > > Regards, > David K. Barnhart, Editor > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion > > Barnhart at highlands.com From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Fri Aug 13 12:31:21 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:31:21 -0500 Subject: Release(d?) Message-ID: I would put "release time" in the same level of speech as "ice tea," "mash potato," and "bake potato." ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter McGraw To: Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 11:32 AM Subject: Release(d?) > O.k., this isn't about dialects, but it is about American speech, and I > hope some of you will indulge me by serving as linguistic guinea pigs. > > When, for example, an adjunct is hired to reduce the teaching load of a > regular faculty member so that said regular can perform some other > task, does your gut feeling as native speakers of American English > prompt you to call the hours in question "released time" or "release > time," or to accept both equally? The same goes for space in an > existing building when a department moves to a new building: Is it > "released space," "release space" or either one? > > When I first encountered "release time" in writing, my first impulse > was to edit it to "released time," but when I thought about it, I > couldn't see why they weren't both equally valid, even if different, > grammatical approaches to the same thing. > > (Obviously one factor at work is that most speakers would probably > pronounce both the same--especially in the case of "-time"--and might > analyze the underlying form either way for the purpose of representing > it in writing.) > > Apart from the issue of Sprachgefuehl, does anyone have a sense of one > or the other gaining the ascendency in written usage at present? It > seems to me that "release time" is probably gaining ground while my own > "released time" is becoming somewhat old fashioned. (You know you're > getting old when....") > > Thanks for any reactions. > > Peter Mc. > > ---------------------- > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College > McMinnville, Oregon > pmcgraw at linfield.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Aug 13 15:50:58 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:50:58 EDT Subject: 1st Dagwood Message-ID: David B's memories are probably as reliable as mine, but I am quite certain that my family was using "Dagwood sandwich" by the late 1940s, and probably earlier. I remember the term from early childhood; I was five years old in 1945. From jrader at M-W.COM Fri Aug 13 12:49:16 1999 From: jrader at M-W.COM (Jim Rader) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:49:16 +0000 Subject: 1st Dagwood Message-ID: Merriam's first cite for _Dagwood sandwich_ is from the Mar., 1945, issue of _Reader's Digest_ (p. 72), condensed from an _Esquire_ article (date not given): "_Blondie_ has given the nation the mountainous and precarious _Dagwood sandwich_...." Plenty of evidence for _Dagwood_ and _Dagwood sandwich_ since then. Jim Rader > David B's memories are probably as reliable as mine, but I am quite certain > that my family was using "Dagwood sandwich" by the late 1940s, and probably > earlier. I remember the term from early childhood; I was five years old in > 1945. > From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Fri Aug 13 18:46:06 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:46:06 -0400 Subject: 1st Dagwood Message-ID: According to _100 Years of American Newspaper Comics_, edited by Maurice Horn, Gramercy Books, 1996: the comic strip Blondie "made its first appearance on September 15, 1930." "It was originally conceived as a 'girlie strip,' with Blondie Boopadoop portrayed as an irrepressible gold digger in pursuit of an irresponsible playboy named Dagwood Bumstead." Apparently, Dagwood was in competition with other suitors, and didn't have a major role. Dagwood was brought back into the strip, and was married to Blondie on February 17, 1933, and soon disinherited by his father. The arrival of Baby Dumpling, a son, turns the comic strip into a family strip, in 1934. Dagwood sandwich mentioned, but first use is not dated. George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Aug 13 19:57:18 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:57:18 EDT Subject: 1st Dagwood Message-ID: Come to think of it, why would the cartoon have mentioned a Dagwoood sandwich at all? The strip simply showed Dagwood making weird and gigantic sandwiches. Applying the term probably happened among readers, not as a result of the strip-writer's coinage. From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Aug 13 20:06:05 1999 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:06:05 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re(2): 1st Dagwood Message-ID: RonButters at AOL.COM,Net writes: > > >Come to think of it, why would the cartoon have mentioned a Dagwoood >sandwich >at all? The strip simply showed Dagwood making weird and gigantic >sandwiches. >Applying the term probably happened among readers, not as a result of the >strip-writer's coinage. That would be my expectation. However, I'm looking for not just the first use of _Dagwood sandwich_ but also for the first occurrence of the sandwich in the Blondie comic strip. Regards, David From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Fri Aug 13 20:45:37 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:45:37 -0400 Subject: Evolution of Languages Message-ID: >From the Scout Report The Evolution of Languages http://www.exploratorium.edu/exploring/ Another great site from Exploratorium (described in the February 21, 1997 Scout Report) The Evolution of Language provides users with tools to trace and explore the evolution of the spoken and written word. Enhanced by audio interviews with linguist Merritt Ruhlen, author of _The Origin of Language: Tracing the Evolution of the Mother Tongue_, this simple but well crafted site provides a nice jumping off point for those interested in the subject. Several exercises and tables help users explore how linguists trace word use and creation as well as how they group languages into common families. Also included is basic information about the history of linguistics and the roots of language classification. [REB] -- Grant Barrett World New York http://www.worldnewyork.com/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Aug 13 21:41:40 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:41:40 EDT Subject: Fwd: Murphy's Law Message-ID: A response from the Flight Safety Foundation on "Murphy's Law." --Barry Popik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "David A. Grzelecki" Subject: Re: Murphy's Law Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:46:05 -0400 Size: 1829 URL: From ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 13 23:28:25 1999 From: ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM (Jane Clark) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:28:25 PDT Subject: Teacher education proposal Message-ID: I suspect these people know tons about their subjects but maybe not so much about teaching. I just attended a conference re: this subject. Thought it was an interesting point. >From: AAllan at AOL.COM >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Teacher education proposal >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:57:58 EDT > >This came from the American Council of Learned Societies, to which ADS >belongs. If you should be interested, please communicate directly with >Maureen Grolnick - not to the whole ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf > >---------------- >Teacher Education: >Many of you have expressed an interest in (concern about) the content >preparation of K-12 teachers. I would like to pursue that interest by >seeking funding for a year-long "roundtable" on Teacher Education and the >Humanities. The general idea: a series of three or four sessions over the >course of a year; participation from the societies (including at least one >or two scholars who have worked with schools of education), teacher >education and the K-12 schools (total group size not to exceed 15); >paper(s) >and a proposal for an implementation project as an outcome. > >Please contact me immediately -- or sooner! -- if you are interested in >hearing more. Our best bet for funding has an October 15 proposal deadline. >I'll do the writing, but I will need to convene those interested -- >in-person and/or electronically - between now and September 15 to develop >the substance. > >Maureen > >Maureen Grolnick >Education Program Officer >American Council of Learned Societies >228 East 45th Street >New York, NY 10017-3398 >212-697-1505 ext. 125 >Fax. 212-949-8058 >e-mail: maureen at acls.org >ACLS Website: http://www.acls.org _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Sat Aug 14 01:18:31 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:18:31 -0500 Subject: Teacher education proposal Message-ID: Do the presenters have to be able to teach or merely give a lecture that is pertinent, well organized, and interesting. I have years of experience at jr-hi & hi-school and in university, seminary, and graduate level courses and can assure you that there is a world of difference. At the post-secondary level, any non-remedial course has either prerequisites or expectations; at the secondary level prerequisites may not be valid and expectations may be misplaced: I knew an experienced and quite knowledgeable 8th grade public school English teacher returning to teaching after a 20-yr absence who told me that she would start the term by having her students write themes. My snicker annoyed her greatly. The next week, she indicated that her students would be practicing on writing well organized paragraphs. The 3rd week, she was planning on sentence construction. The 4th week, she was stressing how to write and recognize a sentence that was a complete thought. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jane Clark To: Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 6:28 PM Subject: Re: Teacher education proposal > I suspect these people know tons about their subjects but maybe not so much > about teaching. I just attended a conference re: this subject. Thought it > was an interesting point. > > > >From: AAllan at AOL.COM > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >Subject: Teacher education proposal > >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:57:58 EDT > > > >This came from the American Council of Learned Societies, to which ADS > >belongs. If you should be interested, please communicate directly with > >Maureen Grolnick - not to the whole ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf > > > >---------------- > >Teacher Education: > >Many of you have expressed an interest in (concern about) the content > >preparation of K-12 teachers. I would like to pursue that interest by > >seeking funding for a year-long "roundtable" on Teacher Education and the > >Humanities. The general idea: a series of three or four sessions over the > >course of a year; participation from the societies (including at least one > >or two scholars who have worked with schools of education), teacher > >education and the K-12 schools (total group size not to exceed 15); > >paper(s) > >and a proposal for an implementation project as an outcome. > > > >Please contact me immediately -- or sooner! -- if you are interested in > >hearing more. Our best bet for funding has an October 15 proposal deadline. > >I'll do the writing, but I will need to convene those interested -- > >in-person and/or electronically - between now and September 15 to develop > >the substance. > > > >Maureen > > > >Maureen Grolnick > >Education Program Officer > >American Council of Learned Societies > >228 East 45th Street > >New York, NY 10017-3398 > >212-697-1505 ext. 125 > >Fax. 212-949-8058 > >e-mail: maureen at acls.org > >ACLS Website: http://www.acls.org > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Aug 14 06:18:57 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 02:18:57 EDT Subject: 20th Century Words; F-Word Message-ID: 20TH CENTURY WORDS This is from the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, 13 August 1999, pg. 5, cols. 3-4: _As the language turns,_ _pop culture reigns big_ _By DAVE GOLDINER_ ("With News Wire Services" appears at the end--ed.) Sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll make the world go round--and they changed the English language, too. New ways to describe the Big Three of popular culture dominate a list of the most important words to enter the language in the last 100 years, a new book says. No one talked about "having sex" until the 1920s. Before that, the act was known only as "making love," said John Ayto, a lexicographer and editor of "20th Century Words." Amazing how companies (Oxford University Press in this case) can make the wire services with free ads. On Amazon.com it's stated that the book will be published in October 1999, will be 480 pages, lists for $25, will sell on Amazon for $17.50, and has the Amazon.com sales rank (SALES RANK? IT'S NOT OUT YET!!) of 1,231,863. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- F-WORD (continued) In a monologue on Friday night's TONIGHT SHOW, Jay Leno made fun of George W. ("Dubyah") Bush's use of "the f-word." "The f-word?" band leader Kevin Eubanks asked. "Friendly?" From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Sat Aug 14 12:18:02 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 08:18:02 -0400 Subject: Spanish-Only Government In Texas Town Message-ID: >From http://www.iht.com/IHT/TODAY/SAT/IN/habla.2.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Paris, Saturday, August 14, 1999 Spanish Becomes the Language of Government in a Texas Town ------------------------------------------------------------------------ By Claudia Kolker Los Angeles Times Service ------------------------------------------------------------------------ EL CENIZO, Texas - As ceiling fans puffed at the big U.S. flag on the community center wall, the dozen residents at the city council meeting here Thursday poised hands over hearts for the Pledge of Allegiance. Then they began their town's modestly historic council meeting, possibly the first in the United States to be conducted by city ordinance in Spanish. Far-flung, sun-battered and mostly poor, this former colonia of trailers and frail bungalows found itself in the middle of a political vortex two weeks after enacting a pair of surprising new laws. Under one ordinance, all city government business must take place in Spanish. And under the other, city employees - all six of them - are forbidden to assist the U.S. Border Patrol in catching undocumented immigrants. If they do so, they risk being fired.' In a town of 7,500 where virtually every resident is an immigrant, married to an immigrant, or the child of immigrants, the laws reflect not so much a rejection of American culture but acknowledgment of a border culture dominated by Spanish and haunted by Border Patrol search vehicles. Far from springing from any broad ideology, in fact, the motivation for the two laws was utterly local, said Mayor Rafael Rodriguez. ''About 75 percent of the people at meetings here only speak Spanish,'' he said. Political rivals of city council members had accused them of turning in undocumented residents to the Immigration and Naturalization Service, or INS, and the new law will help dispel such accusations, Mr. Rodriguez added. So far, residents of this depressed town of laborers and factory workers 10 miles (16 kilometers) down the Rio Grande River from Laredo, Texas, have praised the two ordinances. ''I'm for it,'' said Lupe Rojas, squinting in the sunlight alongside her 10-year-old son. ''Because in English, well - no! We don't understand it.'' But while several Latino advocacy groups praised the effect of the language ordinance in tailoring city services to constituents, the law drew the ire of immigration-reform activists. ''This is not a good idea,'' said Tim Schultze, a spokesman for U.S. English in Washington, a group devoted to making English the official language of the United States. ''We have long predicted that this sort of thing would happen in our country. And our opponents have said, 'You're insane. You're exaggerating. It will never happen.''' But Lydia Camarillo, executive director of the San Antonio, Texas-based Southwest Voter Education Registration Project, called the statute sensible. ''It appears that these folks clearly understand these communities do not speak English and this is a way of providing a service,'' she said. Under the ordinance, city council sessions and other official business will be conducted in Spanish, and English translations will be made available upon request within 48 hours. While the language ordinance provokes strong debate, the ''safe haven'' rule apparently violates federal law, according to the INS. Safe haven ordinances in cities across the country have attempted to keep municipal employees from acting as immigration enforcers, but such measures, unlike the one here, typically include the proviso that they be enforced within the limits of law. Immigration law forbids any federal, state or local government official from restricting government entities in giving or getting immigration information, said Bill Strassberger, an INS spokesman in Los Angeles. However, he added, the INS had no plans to challenge the El Cenizo law. ''Other types of criminal activity are our priority,'' he said. From dumasb at UTK.EDU Sat Aug 14 12:25:24 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 08:25:24 -0400 Subject: Spanish-Only Government In Texas Town In-Reply-To: <-1277503821gbarrett@americandialect.org> Message-ID: Thanks, Grant. As I slowly and sometimes painfully acquire fluency in espanol, I remain aware that there is no good reason whatsoever why I did not grow up bilingual. No one growing up anywhere in south Texas should be a monolingual. Bethany From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Sat Aug 14 18:36:24 1999 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 14:36:24 -0400 Subject: Teacher education proposal Message-ID: The problem in schools of education is generally the opposite: Teacher education does lots of method and technique training, but the content knowledge base is sorely lacking in teacher trainees I've met. At 04:28 PM 8/13/99 -0700, you wrote: >I suspect these people know tons about their subjects but maybe not so much >about teaching. I just attended a conference re: this subject. Thought it >was an interesting point. > > >>From: AAllan at AOL.COM >>Reply-To: American Dialect Society >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>Subject: Teacher education proposal >>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:57:58 EDT >> >>This came from the American Council of Learned Societies, to which ADS >>belongs. If you should be interested, please communicate directly with >>Maureen Grolnick - not to the whole ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf >> >>---------------- >>Teacher Education: >>Many of you have expressed an interest in (concern about) the content >>preparation of K-12 teachers. I would like to pursue that interest by >>seeking funding for a year-long "roundtable" on Teacher Education and the >>Humanities. The general idea: a series of three or four sessions over the >>course of a year; participation from the societies (including at least one >>or two scholars who have worked with schools of education), teacher >>education and the K-12 schools (total group size not to exceed 15); >>paper(s) >>and a proposal for an implementation project as an outcome. >> >>Please contact me immediately -- or sooner! -- if you are interested in >>hearing more. Our best bet for funding has an October 15 proposal deadline. >>I'll do the writing, but I will need to convene those interested -- >>in-person and/or electronically - between now and September 15 to develop >>the substance. >> >>Maureen >> >>Maureen Grolnick >>Education Program Officer >>American Council of Learned Societies >>228 East 45th Street >>New York, NY 10017-3398 >>212-697-1505 ext. 125 >>Fax. 212-949-8058 >>e-mail: maureen at acls.org >>ACLS Website: http://www.acls.org > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Aug 14 23:14:51 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 19:14:51 EDT Subject: "In God We Trust" Message-ID: "In God We Trust" is an important American phrase. I ran it through computer databases and came up with a new, very early citation. We've discussed this briefly (see the archives). It's also discussed in the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS (pg. 211) and the RANDOM HOUSE DICTIONARY OF POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS (pages 165-166). Both credit Francis Scott Key's 1814 "The Star-Spangled Banner," which gave us: And this be our motto, "In God is our trust!" Nothing early came up on the Making of America database. Accessible Archives had two important hits. The CHRISTIAN RECORDER, 1 June 1861, had a poem called "OUR FLAG" with the line "In God we trust." This is from the PENNSYLVANIA GAZETTE, 12 January 1748: PHILADELPHIA, January 12. DEVICES and MOTTOES painted on some of the Silk Colours of the Regiments of ASSOCIATORS, in and near Philadelphia. (Various Latin mottoes given--ed.) IX. A Coronet and Plume of Feathers. Motto, IN GOD WE TRUST. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Aug 15 02:24:42 1999 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:24:42 -0600 Subject: hip-hop query Message-ID: Does anyone know of a dictionary or glossary of hip-hop terms? Also, I've started reading through the hip-hop magazine BLAZE and notice the following lyrics which I cannot understand except for the part up to "It's 4 a.m.": (April 1999 issue, p.58; article title: "Honorable Mention": "If you gotta be a mokey, be a gorilla It;s 4 a.m. I'm off a tab and still a World rap billa' Pushin' big Benz Wit' a chickenhead drawers hangin' from my antenna!" Can anyone translate this for me? ----Gerald Cohen gcohen at umr.edu From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Aug 15 02:34:27 1999 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:34:27 -0600 Subject: Oops, misspelling Message-ID: I just sent a message asking about hip-hop lyrics but misspelled the work "monkey" (first line). So the lyrics are: "If you gotta be a monkey, be a gorilla It;s 4 a.m. I'm off a tab and still a World rap billa' Pushin' big Benz Wit' a chickenhead drawers hangin' from my antenna!" I still have no idea what the last four lines mean. ----Gerald Cohen gcohen at umr.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Aug 15 04:50:02 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 00:50:02 EDT Subject: Number one; Clamdiggers; Boy meets girl Message-ID: NUMBER ONE Dodger baseball great Pee Wee Reese died. His famous catch phrase was, "Number one on your scorecard, and number one in the hearts of America." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CLAMDIGGERS At a recent fashion show, several designers (Perry Ellis, Daniel Chu) showed off capri pants/clamdiggers for GUYS. Some other names for this budding fashion monstrosity are "new crop" and "pre-pants." I haven't yet checked the Dow Jones database for it. (NYU is closed on weekends.) How many names does this have? Are the pants called different names for the different sexes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BOY MEETS GIRL (continued) The lesbian sex film BETTER THAN CHOCOLATE was reviewed in the NEW YORK TIMES, 13 August 1999, pg. E26, col. 3: ...it has the effervescence of an engaging musical comedy in which girl meets girl, girl loses girl and girl gets girl back, multiplied by three. This is the headline (the story is about subway vigilante Bernhard Goetz's missing pet) in the NEW YORK POST, 15 August 1999, pg. 16, cols. 1-4: _A tragic boy-meets-squirrel, boy-loses-squirrel tale_ GET ME SONDHEIM!! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Aug 15 04:53:42 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 00:53:42 EDT Subject: Rap Dictionary Message-ID: The rap dictionary is at www.rapdict.org/. From spine1 at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Aug 14 22:25:36 1999 From: spine1 at EARTHLINK.NET (Jonathan Fine) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:25:36 +0000 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 13 Aug 1999 to 14 Aug 1999 (#1999-66) Message-ID: My impression is that the narrator is driving his Mercedes while high on a tab of acid, and has recently struck a pedestrian with such force that the chickenhead's underwear now dangles from the car's antenna. Puttin' my hands in the air like I just don't care, Jonathan Fine > "If you gotta be a monkey, be a gorilla > It;s 4 a.m. > I'm off a tab and still a > World rap billa' > Pushin' big Benz > Wit' a chickenhead drawers hangin' from my antenna!" > I still have no idea what the last four lines mean. > ----Gerald Cohen From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Aug 16 01:40:17 1999 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 19:40:17 -0600 Subject: Rap dictionary Message-ID: My thanks to Barry Popik for drawing my attention to the rap dictionary on line ( www.rapdict.org/.) and to Jonathan Fine for interpreting the rap lyrics that were l incomprehensible to me: "If you gotta be a monkey, be a gorilla It;s 4 a.m. I'm off a tab and still a World rap billa' Pushin' big Benz Wit' a chickenhead drawers hangin' from my antenna!" I checked the online dictionary. "Chickenhead" is listed: "any dumb person (usually refers to women, unfortunately) who clucks (speaks) a lot and walks around aimlessly or without purpose (like... [That's the way the entry ends: with "like" followed by three dots.] I see that RHHDAS also lists "chickenhead" (= dolt) with the first attestation coming as early as 1906, but the reference is to both men and women. Meanwhile, a preliminary check turns up more items that are absent from the online dictionary than are present; a few examples: 1) "babymuva" ----BLAZE, April 1999, p.47: "Eminem needs help... he's having problems deciding which Spice Girl to make his next babymuva." 2) "whip" (apparently = car) ----BLAZE, April 1999, p. 58: "I pull up in the whip, pop the trunk, ya feel it?/ Barefoot gorilla funk, ya hear it?" -------The online rap dictionary has two items 'for "Whip," both nicknames. 3) "billa'" (in the lyrics quoted above from my earlier message). This word isn't in RHHDAS or the online rap dictionary. I'm not sure of its meaning. So the online dictionary is a good beginning, but it is evidently only a beginning. Does someone out there have a student who might be interested in working on this project? Perhaps as a term paper? If the collection is a good one (with illustrations from rap lyrics or articles about rap from such publications as BLAZE) , an effort should be made to see that it gets published somewhere. -----Gerald Cohen gcohen at umr.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 16 02:01:16 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:01:16 EDT Subject: Carpetbagger & First Lady (continued) Message-ID: CARPETBAGGER (continued) This is from the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE, 6 February 1868, pg. 2, col. 1: We are told the South now hates her own people who upheld the Union, and call the Northern settlers "Yankees" in derision. "Yankees"? Not "carpetbaggers"? Probably "damn yankees," but Brooklyn is the City of Churches, you know. This--our latest "earliest" citation--is from the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE, 30 March 1868, pg. 2, col. 3: On Saturday the House of Representatives passed an act providing for "reconstruction" in Alabama. The Constitution for which but 6,000 "carpet baggers" recently voted, is declared to be the fundamental law of the State. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FIRST LADY (continued) OED has 1853 and 1861 citations for "first lady of the land." The following article shows that this was not always the same as "first lady of the White House." This long article is from the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE, 21 March 1868, pg. 2, cols. 4-5: WHO IS THE FIRST AMERICAN LADY--CURIOUS GOSSIP FROM WASHINGTON. (From the Pittsburgh (Pa.) _Gazette) (...) MRS. SENATOR SPRAGUE AND MRS. LINCOLN. In the early days of the war the young Governor of Rhode Island, who raised a regiment at his own risk, and went to suppress the rebelllion, was quite a hero of romance. Loyal ladies were not so abundant in Washington as after Lee's surrender; and, what with her wit, beauty, gracious manners, her father's position, and the affianced of the Rhode Island millionaire-patriot-Governor-Colonel, Miss Chase occupied a very prominent position, and believed herself entitled to precedence as "First Lady" in the Government. She contested her claim with Mrs. Lincoln, who, as "Lady of the White House," was, by common consent, awarded that eminence. There had been several passages at arms between them, and Mrs. Lincoln felt deeply aggrieved when Miss Chase was at the White House... MRS. WADE AND MRS. SPRAGUE. Mrs. Sprague's desire to be "First Lady" amounts almost to a mania; and, no doubt, has much to do with her father's Presidential aspirations. While Mr. Johnson is President (This was during the impeachment--ed.) she will have little active opposition to her claim to that dignity in right of her treble rank of wealth, wife of a Senator and daughter of the Chief-Justice... A long, catty discussion of the qualities of Mrs. Wade and Mrs. Sprague for the title of "First Lady" follows. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SPEAKING TOUR (continued) The Purdue University 1966 thesis of Frederick William Edward Trautmann was LOUIS KOSSUTH'S AUDIENCE ADAPTATION IN HIS AMERICAN SPEAKING TOUR, 1851-1852. Charles Dickens had his "American tour" in 1842. I haven't yet checked the documents for the term "speaking tour." From bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM Mon Aug 16 02:40:03 1999 From: bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM (Ken Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 19:40:03 -0700 Subject: "As if" in Rushdie's latest Message-ID: When did "as if!" as a sarcastic retort come into general usage? I tend to associate it (and the related "what*ever*!") with the _Clueless_ generation (the movie title, not a dig at that generation). So here's a scene from Salman Rushdie's _The Ground Beneath Her Feet_. The setting is mid-1940s Bombay (relived in a flashback), and the narrator's mother has just built a soaring sand castle, or sand building: "'Skyscraper,' she named it. 'How'd you like to own a penthouse at the top?' Skywhatter? Where was a penthouse pent? These were words I did not know. I found myself disliking them: the words, and the building to which they belonged. Besides, I was bored and wanted to swim. "'Looks like a big matchbox to me.' I shrugged. 'Live in it? As if.'" Somehow, this sounds a little anachronistic to me. But what do I know? (This is not a quibble about the book itself, which I am reading with great pleasure.) Ken Miller Partridge School of Gentle Arts From mrudge at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Aug 16 05:53:45 1999 From: mrudge at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (M. Rudge) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:53:45 -0700 Subject: "As if" in Rushdie's latest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I recall hearing "as if" appearing much earlier than the cluless movie. Wayne and Garth from "Wayne's World" on Saturda Night Live used this expression regularly. I'm not sure if it originated in this time frame but I remember hearing it for the first time from Wayne and Garth. It has a california surfer lingo ring to it. michelle On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Ken Miller wrote: > When did "as if!" as a sarcastic retort come into general usage? > > I tend to associate it (and the related "what*ever*!") with the _Clueless_ > generation (the movie title, not a dig at that generation). > > So here's a scene from Salman Rushdie's _The Ground Beneath Her Feet_. The > setting is mid-1940s Bombay (relived in a flashback), and the narrator's > mother has just built a soaring sand castle, or sand building: > > "'Skyscraper,' she named it. 'How'd you like to own a penthouse at the > top?' Skywhatter? Where was a penthouse pent? These were words I did not > know. I found myself disliking them: the words, and the building to which > they belonged. Besides, I was bored and wanted to swim. > > "'Looks like a big matchbox to me.' I shrugged. 'Live in it? As if.'" > > Somehow, this sounds a little anachronistic to me. But what do I know? > > (This is not a quibble about the book itself, which I am reading with great > pleasure.) > > Ken Miller > Partridge School of Gentle Arts > From mrudge at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Aug 16 07:01:04 1999 From: mrudge at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (M. Rudge) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 00:01:04 -0700 Subject: SQUATTING Message-ID: Does anyone know where the term squatting(as in the unlawful occupation of abandoned buildings by the homeless) originated? The term is widely used in Europe and the United States. If anyone has any clues or clues to where I might be able to find such information I would be very thankful. michelle From jrader at M-W.COM Mon Aug 16 08:50:57 1999 From: jrader at M-W.COM (Jim Rader) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:50:57 +0000 Subject: Evolution of Languages Message-ID: People on this list might want to know, if they don't already, that Merritt Ruhlen is a sort of pop proselytizer of Joseph Greenberg's ideas about the genetic relationships of the world's language families--though in confidently reconstructing Proto-World, I think Ruhlen has gone beyond even Greenberg. Ruhlen openly sneers at conventional historical linguistics and those who practice it. Most linguists sneer right back at him, though I think it fair to say that even those who seriously think about long-range comparison don't take Ruhlen too seriously, and feel that Ruhlen's hostility toward academia has needlessly antagonized many. I'm sorry to see that Ruhlen is still finding fora to advance his ideas. (For anyone interested, there's a summary of Ruhlen's methodology and a critique of it in Larry Trask's _Historical Linguistics_ (London: Arnold, 1996), pp, 391-96.) Jim Rader > From the Scout Report > > The Evolution of Languages > http://www.exploratorium.edu/exploring/ > > Another great site from Exploratorium (described in the February 21, > 1997 Scout Report) The Evolution of Language provides users with > tools to trace and explore the evolution of the spoken and written > word. Enhanced by audio interviews with linguist Merritt Ruhlen, > author of _The Origin of Language: Tracing the Evolution of the > Mother Tongue_, this simple but well crafted site provides a nice > jumping off point for those interested in the subject. Several > exercises and tables help users explore how linguists trace word use > and creation as well as how they group languages into common > families. Also included is basic information about the history of > linguistics and the roots of language classification. [REB] > > -- > Grant Barrett > > World New York > http://www.worldnewyork.com/ > From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU Mon Aug 16 13:45:41 1999 From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:45:41 -0400 Subject: SQUATTING Message-ID: At 12:01 AM 8/16/99 -0700, "M. Rudge" wrote: >Does anyone know where the term squatting (as in the unlawful occupation of >abandoned buildings by the homeless) originated? The term is widely >used in Europe and the United States. If anyone has any clues or clues to >where I might be able to find such information I would be very thankful. >michelle > OED2 squat v., meanings 9a and 9c: 9a. To settle upon new, uncultivated, or unoccupied land without any legal title and without the payment of rent. Orig. U.S. Freq. const. on or upon (land). 1800 Mississippi Territorial Archives (1906) 212, I wish also to be instructed for my Conduct towards those people Squatting or establishing themselves upon the Public Lands. 1829 Marryat F. Mildmay xxi, He was a Kentucky man, of the Ohio, where he had `squatted', as we say. 1854 Thoreau Walden (1863) 70 As for a habitat, if I were not permitted still to squat, I might purchase one acre. 1884 St. James's Gaz. 20 June 6/1 The ancestors of many of the present freeholders began to squat upon the uncultivated slopes of the hills. 9c. To occupy an uninhabited building illegally (esp. said of a group of homeless people organized for this purpose); to live as a squatter (squatter n.1 1 d). 1880 Dixon Windsor IV. xxix. 269 Paupers had squatted in many of the towers. 1937 `G. Orwell' Road to Wigan Pier v. 81 In one town I remember a whole colony of them who were squatting, more or less illicitly, in a derelict house which was practically falling down. 1946 Daily Worker 9 Sept. 4/3 We...decided to assist homeless people to squat in certain of these buildings. 1969 Listener 15 May 665/1 No one expects to see 40,000 people squatting this year as there were 23 years ago. 1969 Peace News 13 June 5/1 One startling realisation...is how few is the number of families that have had the courage to squat. 1980 Oxf. Compan. Law 1171/2 Persons may squat in buildings by reason of inability to find other accommodation and may do so deliberately as a protest against shortage of housing in the area. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Aug 16 15:11:08 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:11:08 EDT Subject: specialisms Message-ID: >From another discussion group: < . . . The programe include my own specialisms, video and ESP, and it also it includes what I think is a first anywhere, an MA Principles of Interpreting. . . .> Is SPECIALISMS normal English? From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU Mon Aug 16 15:30:41 1999 From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:30:41 -0400 Subject: specialisms Message-ID: At 11:11 AM 8/16/99 EDT, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >>>From another discussion group: > >< . . . The programe include my own specialisms, video and ESP, and it also it >includes what I think is a first anywhere, an MA Principles of >Interpreting. . . .> > >Is SPECIALISMS normal English? > "Specialism" occurs fifteen times in OED2. OED2's citations make it look like an Anglicism. Note "programe" (presumably a typo for the UK spelling "programme") in the quote you give. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Aug 16 15:43:03 1999 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:43:03 -0400 Subject: specialisms Message-ID: Ron, Could it be a nonce-formation motivated by resistence to the "chef" or "cooking" interpretation of "specialties" or ("specialities")? I find it a little clumsy to say that my "specialty" is sociolinguistics (when it is really barbeque). Of course, it could be just nonnative speaker English (in which case our wheels are spinning agin for naught). dInIs >>>From another discussion group: > >< . . . The programe include my own specialisms, video and ESP, and it also it >includes what I think is a first anywhere, an MA Principles of >Interpreting. . . .> > >Is SPECIALISMS normal English? Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From SwainB at MOODYS.COM Mon Aug 16 15:43:30 1999 From: SwainB at MOODYS.COM (Swain, Bill) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:43:30 -0400 Subject: Dri-ki Message-ID: Does anyone know the derivation of the term "dri-ki" or "dry-kye"? I have heard it used by old-timers in Maine to refer to driftwood. Does it refer to a specific type of driftwood? From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Mon Aug 16 16:02:45 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:02:45 -0400 Subject: Dri-ki Message-ID: The following on-line glossary provides some info: http://www.npmb.com/glossary/index.htm#D "Dri-ki - Dead, weathered trees and stumps, as a result of long term flooding (like from a dam). Stumps eventually uproot and float downwind or downstream, creating a pile of debris, or dri-ki." Usage, hyphenated, at: http://www.northernoutdoors.com/NO497/Jerryk.html Manufacturer of same name at: http://www.netpets.org/mfgs/d.html Couldn't find specific derivation info. George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Mon Aug 16 16:15:15 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:15:15 -0400 Subject: SQUATTING Message-ID: Depending on the laws of a given state, squatting could be something as 'simple' as walking/driving across someone's property, on a regular basis, and establishing the legal right, after several years, to continue to cross that property. In the 1950s, I heard references to squatter's rights, when used with private property. Later, I was told that the legal nicety dealt with 'notorious use'. Again, the basic differences are in the laws of the various states. George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Mon Aug 16 16:25:20 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:25:20 -0400 Subject: Dry-kye Message-ID: Usage of dry-kye at "Ellery Queen Mystery Magazine: Fiction Index": http://www.hycyber.com/MYST/EQ_wa.html Have no idea about the specific reference. George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Mon Aug 16 16:27:38 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:27:38 -0400 Subject: origin of "ansible"? Message-ID: "Ansible" is a word first used in science fiction (according to all I've ever seen said about it) by Ursula K. LeGuin, for a fictional communications device that would function instantaneously and therefore would make conversations feasible on an interstellar scale. Radio, laser, and all other currently known or theorized media are subject to the lightspeed limit of 300,000 kps (186,000 miles/sec); if you sent a question to someone at the nearest star to Sol and they replied at once, you'd have to wait nearly eight years to get your answer, and proportionally longer for more distant stars. For many star systems that are settled in LeGuin's Hainish stories, you'd be dead before the answer came. The attached question was just asked in rec.arts.sf.written, although I have wondered about it for quite a while, as have many sf readers. This is the first I'd heard of the "talking-board" attribution. Until now my best guess, totally unsubstantiated, was that she had coined the word as a deliberate reduction, because it would allow you to ask questions that are "answerable" in your lifetime. Can anyone substantiate or amplify the connection ascribed here, or provide some etymological information? -- Mark "Someone's sent out the New Australian Grammar to Malaya nearly a century before it was invented, and I'm going to be all day sorting it out." -- Diana Wynne Jones, _A Tale of Time City_ <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>> From: kmaroney at crossover.com (Kevin J. Maroney) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written Subject: Re: So... does any SF author get credit for the Internet? Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:46:16 GMT ross_presser at imtek.com (Ross Presser) wrote: >Come to think of it, did Blish invent this? U.K. Le Guin used the ansible >in "The Word for World is Forest". Blish had an instantaneous radio in the >Cities in Flight books, but he called it the Dirac. The ansible appears in most of Le Guin's Hainish stories, including _The Left Hand of Darkness_ and is center stage in _The Dispossessed_. As nearly as I can tell, she did not coin the term. I have been trying for years to rediscover which dictionary I discovered the term in, without success, but it originally referred to a "talking-board", a slate covered with the letters of the alphabet. Mutes communicated with non-mutes by spelling out letters with a pointer. Kevin Maroney | kmaroney at crossover.com Kitchen Staff Supervisor The New York Review of Science Fiction http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html From kmaroney at CROSSOVER.COM Mon Aug 16 17:47:36 1999 From: kmaroney at CROSSOVER.COM (Kevin J. Maroney) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:47:36 -0400 Subject: origin of "ansible"? In-Reply-To: <852567CF.005A56DE.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com> Message-ID: At 12:27 PM 8/16/99 -0400, Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com wrote: >The attached question was just asked in rec.arts.sf.written, although >I have wondered about it for quite a while, as have many sf readers. >This is the first I'd heard of the "talking-board" attribution. Until now >my best guess, totally unsubstantiated, was that she had coined the word >as a deliberate reduction... As I said in my post, I encountered the word in a dictionary sometime in the late 1980s, but have not been able to find it again since. If anyone here does know of it, please let me know! -- Kevin Maroney | Crossover Technologies kmaroney at crossover.com | (212) 777-1190 From stephen.harper at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Aug 16 17:49:16 1999 From: stephen.harper at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Steve Harper) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:49:16 -0400 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?B?UmU6ICAgICAgu9i4tDogICAgICBSZTogaWNlZCB0ZWE=?= Message-ID: In my part of the South: Fayetteville, NC, the "ice" or "iced" is a given. One orders tea. Some restaurants now ask whether it should be "sweeten" [sic] however, so it comes out something like sway'-ten tay-ee. Regards, Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: gjxy To: Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 20:12 Subject: »Ø¸´: Re: iced tea > Prof.Benjamin, > The "ice tea"--"iced tea" is like the"go fish"--"gold fish" , is it? > > > > > |My gut feeling is that "ice tea" is a southernism, and not something that > is > |written very often; i.e., you go into a restaurant and order "ice tea" (the > |d and the t becoming indistinguishable). These same people may write it > |either way, with or without the d. And it seems from Nexis that "iced tea" > |is the predominate written form. > | > |Conversely, if it is a southernism, the d of "iced" is never pronounced, > |even though the speaker may write it with the d. > | > |Jessie > |----- Original Message ----- > |From: Barnhart > |To: > |Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 3:11 PM > |Subject: iced tea > | > | > |> My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations > |> there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. > |> > |> > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call > |> iced > |> >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called > |> 'ice' tea > |> >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't > |> sell > |> >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." > |> >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. > |> > |> I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the > |> dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. > |> > |> DAE has only iced tea. > |> DA has only iced tea. > |> WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. > |> OED has no reference to either. > |> OEDs has no reference to either. > |> Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. > |> DARE has no reference to either. > |> AmDiDic has no reference to either. > |> > |> Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea > |> Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. > |> > |> Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution > |> for these two terms? > |> > |> Regards, > |> David K. Barnhart > |> barnhart at highlands.com > From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Mon Aug 16 21:22:53 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:22:53 -0400 Subject: just for fun Message-ID: This was forwarded to me under the Subject line "Unfit for Publication" by a chain of friends. I pass it on here by permission of the author (vide infra). -- Mark <<<<<>>>>> Dear WESSies: The following "news item" was rejected for the Personal & Institutional News column of the upcoming Fall WESS Newsletter for the very simple reason that it is fictional. But you need to see it anyway: ********** Our colleague Hypo Kondria, Third Assistant Vice Chair Pro Tem in one of the minor departments at the library of the Institute for Really Ancient Greek Political and Polygraph Studies at the Winnemucca Campus of the University of North Central Nevada (WC of the UNCN), has just had his book-length manuscript, "The Birth of Democracy from the Spirit of Olive Oil," rejected for the 153rd time. In what his sister Meta deems a "brilliant politico-linguistic study," he theorizes that the word "oligarchy" was first devised as "olivarchy" and referred to the few really big olive grove owners who monopolized early politics on the Peloponnesian plateau. Then, due to the "Fourth Phoneme Phenomenon," the voiced labio-dental fricative /v/ of "olivarchy" transmogrified to the voiced velar plosive /g/ in a stunning confirmation of "Gerner's Law." Likewise, says Hypo, the word "democrat" came from the many poor olive sellers who would "demo" their wares which they carried in "crates." These early "demo-crates" became "democrats." Those who reaped olives and took the profits, he explains, were known as "reap-olivans," which morphed to "republicans." His latest manuscript rejection was at a Greek linguistics trade show in Salt Lake City where a tornado thoroughly shredded it before carrying it away. Having had his manuscript rejected by numerous vanity publishers in Reno, Las Vegas and Elko, Hypo is now going to submit his stunning etymologies to some prestigious university presses in the Northeast. ................................................ Richard Hacken European Studies Bibliographer Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah 84602, USA e-mail: Richard_Hacken at byu.edu phone: (801) 378-2374 webpages: http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/ ................................................ From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Mon Aug 16 22:32:23 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:32:23 -0400 Subject: Mania, Divorces and Spent Change Message-ID: Anyone have any idea who said something about "the world is mania, divorces and spent change"? I looked in Lexis-Nexis, Dow Jones, JStor, ProQuest, MUSE, Making of America, four different Internet search engines, and a few other places, and I can't find it. It sounds like an Oscar Wilde quote, but that didn't seem to pan out. -- Grant Barrett World New York http://www.worldnewyork.com/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 17 02:35:35 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:35:35 EDT Subject: "Suicide by Cop" Message-ID: "Suicide by Cop" ran on today's CBS Evening News. It's at www.cbs.com/flat/story.176794.html. It occurs when someone wants to commit suicide and wants the police to shoot, and pretends to have a gun (some have toy guns). I don't like the phrase--it sounds as if the cop is committing suicide (it's _by_ him). "'Suicide by Cop' a growing phenomenon in the U.S." was in the GUARDIAN, 29 December 1994. The earliest ProQuest hit is "Suicide by Cop," THE POLICE CHIEF, July 1993, pg. 24. Did Clinton Van Zandt (the story's author) coin it? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 17 05:26:26 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 01:26:26 EDT Subject: "Till hell freezes over!" Message-ID: The RANDOM HOUSE DICTIONARY OF POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS (Have I done every one of these?) has this on page 337: _Till hell freezes over._ This anonymous saying has been traced back to the 1910s-1920s. P. G. Wodehouse (1881-1975) was among the first to use the saying. F. Scott Fitzgerald (1896-1940) used to end his letters with "Yours till hell freezes over." _Until_ may substitute for _till_. The saying is listed in the 1989 collection _Modern Proverbs and Proverbial Sayings_ by Bartlett Jere Whiting.*** (Three stars=very frequent use--ed.) Eric Partridge's A DICTIONARY OF CATCH PHRASES has: _'til (or till) hell freezes over_ is a c.p. letter-ending: ? originally Canadian: late C19-20; little used after c. 1940 and, by 1975, virtually obsolete. Cf--indeed, see--_yours to a cinder_. I disagree strongly--it's not "Canadian" and certainly not "virtually obsolete." Jonathon Green's DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "(1910s+) for a very long or indefinite time." This is from the NEW YORK TRIBUNE, 5 March 1868 (I was looking for "carpetbagger"), pg. 4, col. 6: A Conservative State Convention in North Carolina has nominated Zebulon B. Vance for Governor, and for minor offices men of his political stripe. As nothing can give a more satisfactory illustration of a man's opinions than his own words, we take the liberty of putting ex-Gov. Vance in the witness-box. Listen to Zebulon B. Vance as he addresses a regiment of Confederate soldiers: "Boys, fight till hell freezes over, and then fight on the ice." "Fight until you fill hell so full of Yankees that their feet will stick out the windows." (...) In early 1995, I went to North Carolina to do some research for my historical play based on Albion Tourgee's A FOOL'S ERRAND. A wonderful drawing by "O. Henry" of the "carpetbagger" Tourgee is in the Greensboro historical museum. A Civil War speech by this same North Carolina Governor Zebulon B. Vance is responsible for popularizing the nickname "Tar Heel." Did I post that? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 17 05:26:28 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 01:26:28 EDT Subject: Bronx cocktail & Rickey; Strap-Hanger Message-ID: RICKEY (continued) Two more versions. This is from the NEW YORK WORLD (there's a good photo here), 24 April 1903, pg. 3, col. 4: The drink known as the "rickey" was named for Joe Rickey, but not by him. Rickey had a habit of drinking in the morning a small "hooker" of Bourbon whiskey into which he had squeezed half a lime and poured a tumbler of water. One morning Fred Mussey walked into the place where Rickey did his drinking and said to the bartender: "Give me a Rickey!" "A which?" asked the bartender. "One of those things Rickey drinks." The drink was made in a long glass, with Bourbon whiskey, half a lime, a piece of ice and carbonic water. Rickey always contended that the use of rye whiskey or gin in a Rickey made it unfit for a gentleman to drink. From the NEW YORK TRIBUNE, 24 April 1903, pg. 9, col. 4: He exploited and popularized the gin rickey, though it is asserted Colonel Watterson christened the drink. It was at the St. Louis convention that nominated Tilden (1884?--ed.), so the story goes, that Colonel Watterson, after being locked in a room for eighteen hours, where he, as a member of the committee on resolutions had been trying to build a party platform, emerged, hot, tired and thirsty. Seeing Rickey, he called to him to join him in a cooling tipple. When asked by the bartender what he would have, Colonel Watterson, who had partaken of the beverage with Colonel Rickey before, said, "Oh, give me one of those--of those, ah--rickeys." And the rickey was launched. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BRONX COCKTAIL I'm working in the Bronx today. This is the origin of another old American drink name. From WHAT SHALL WE DRINK? (1934) by Magnus Bredenbek, pg. 13: MIXING A BRONX COCKTAIL The Bronx Cocktail, strange to say, was invented in Philadelphia, of all places! There it might have remained in obscurity had it not been for one Joseph Sormani, a Bronx restaurateur, who discovered it in the Quaker City in 1905. (This coincides with the OED cite--ed.) The original recipe has been greatly distorted in the course of years, but here's the original to guide you and to compare with the other recipes being used: Four parts of gin, one part of orange juice and one part of Italian Vermouth. Shake thoroughly in ice and serve. From the NEW YORK TIMES, 17 August 1947, pg. 17, col. 2: _JOSEPH S. SORMANI_ Joseph S. Sormani, retired Bronx restaurateur, who was said to have originated the Bronx cocktail, died Wednesday night in his home, 2322 Fish Avenue, the Bronx, after a brief illness. His age was 83. Born in Lake Como, Italy, Mr. Sormani came to the United States at the age of 18. He was proprietor of Sormani's restaurant at Pelham Parkway and Boston Road for thirty years until his retirement twelve years ago. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- STRAP-HANGER I take a subway to the Bronx. The OED has a London "straphanger" citation from 1905. The term was also used in New York--before the underground subway. This is the first paragraph of a long and illustrated article in the NEW YORK PRESS, 12 April 1903, magazine section, pg. 7, col. 3: _No Hope for the Strap-Hanger_ THERE is no hope for the strap-hanger. He will hang to his strap when the underground system is inaugurated next winter just as he hangs to his strap to-day. From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Aug 17 14:12:33 1999 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:12:33 -0400 Subject: "Suicide by Cop" Message-ID: suicide-by-cop See The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 11.2). One of the interesting features there is the variant _police-assisted suicide_. Nexis reveals for suicide by cop and suicide-by-cop supplied a large number of examples--overwhelmingly American dating from 1989. Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] From AAllan at AOL.COM Tue Aug 17 21:52:44 1999 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:52:44 EDT Subject: ivory tower Message-ID: Has this been discussed before? I got an inquiry about "ivory tower" and find the explanations unsatisfying. The dictionaries cite a French source without explaining why it should be ivory. Charles Earle Funk, in "Heavens to Betsy," gives the exact source in French and English but still does not say why it's ivory. Funk: "When Charles-Augustin Sainte-Beuve, French literary critic of the early nineteenth century, coined this term he thought of it as applicable to the aerie of a poet, a place where he could retire from the world, a retreat. The term occurs in his own poem, Pensees d' Aout, written in October, 1837. . . ." But why ivory? - Allan Metcalf From vneufeldt at M-W.COM Wed Aug 18 00:07:04 1999 From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:07:04 -0400 Subject: ivory tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have wondered about this myself. A wild guess would be that it's just a ref to something otherwordly and/or romantic, as conjuring up the storied Orient in the old sense, where ivory and sandalwood and such came from. A tower of ivory would actually be pretty impractical and not at all strong, so the original image cannot have been of a fortress against the real world. But I would love to hear the real story and am waiting in breathless anticipation. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt, Merriam-Webster, Inc. 47 Federal Street, P.O. Box 281 Springfield, MA 01102 Tel. (413) 734-3134 ext 124 Fax (413) 827-7262 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of AAllan at AOL.COM > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 5:53 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: ivory tower > > > Has this been discussed before? I got an inquiry about "ivory > tower" and find > the explanations unsatisfying. The dictionaries cite a French > source without > explaining why it should be ivory. Charles Earle Funk, in > "Heavens to Betsy," > gives the exact source in French and English but still does not > say why it's > ivory. > > Funk: "When Charles-Augustin Sainte-Beuve, French literary critic of the > early nineteenth century, coined this term he thought of it as > applicable to > the aerie of a poet, a place where he could retire from the > world, a retreat. > The term occurs in his own poem, Pensees d' Aout, written in > October, 1837. . > . ." > > But why ivory? > > - Allan Metcalf > From ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 18 00:27:54 1999 From: ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM (Jane Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:27:54 PDT Subject: ivory tower Message-ID: Wasn't it the color of Rapunzel's hair? >From: AAllan at AOL.COM >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: ivory tower >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:52:44 EDT > >Has this been discussed before? I got an inquiry about "ivory tower" and >find >the explanations unsatisfying. The dictionaries cite a French source >without >explaining why it should be ivory. Charles Earle Funk, in "Heavens to >Betsy," >gives the exact source in French and English but still does not say why >it's >ivory. > >Funk: "When Charles-Augustin Sainte-Beuve, French literary critic of the >early nineteenth century, coined this term he thought of it as applicable >to >the aerie of a poet, a place where he could retire from the world, a >retreat. >The term occurs in his own poem, Pensees d' Aout, written in October, 1837. >. >.. ." > >But why ivory? > >- Allan Metcalf _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From jeclapp at WANS.NET Wed Aug 18 07:42:24 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 03:42:24 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: Urban Legends Message-ID: A couple of weeks ago we mentioned a couple of urban legends sites. Here's another, though it is a rather puny list: http://www.netsquirrel.com/combatkit/ James E. Clapp From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Aug 18 14:51:12 1999 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:51:12 -0400 Subject: Unfair coins Message-ID: Colleagues, Do any of you have any technical information about the preparation of "unfair" coins for petty games-of-chance. In my old neighborhood, the "filing" of coins (it was hypothesized) would remove some "weight" from that side of the coin and increase the probability that the other side would come "up." I don't follow this physics of this theory. If weight is removed from one side, the "center" simply changes, but the odds of heads or tails stays the same. Right? Perhaps "uneven" weight removal would do the job. If so, how? dInIs PS: This is for theoretical purposes only; I still have my job. Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Thu Aug 19 02:02:19 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:02:19 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Camion Code, new phonemic writing system] Message-ID: I thought you guys might enjoy a little chuckle. Note that the URL inside the text is the correct one - the one at the bottom has a typo. A couple of us on the Unicode list have responded, mentioning the futility of trying to revamp the way English is written, and that phonemic/phonetic writing results in different written forms for different dialects. (Not to mention her overly punctuated writing style! Tough to read.) Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: JoAnne Marie Subject: Camion Code, new phonemic writing system Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Size: 7280 URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 19 04:16:22 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:16:22 EDT Subject: "Afrikaner Glossary" in KAT AND THE KINGS Message-ID: KAT AND THE KINGS is a new Broadway musical that will open tomorrow (Thursday) and be reviewed in your Friday newspapers. It's a transfer from Cape Town via London, where it won the 1999 Laurence Olivier Award for Best New Musical. I saw it a few days early--in "previews." The show is about some kids in the 1950s forming a singing group (like the Four Seasons, the Teenagers, et al.), set against the background of the apartheid regime. Nelson Mandela saw it and praised the authors to the skies. It is a good show. It is entertaining. It didn't strike me as a Broadway musical, however--perhaps it's a Las Vegas revue. It's almost all songs (about 40 of 'em), with very little drama. For what it is, it's well done. It's impossible not to enjoy it. It reminded me of a South African FOREVER PLAID (a very successful show--as an Off-Broadway musical and a road show). The songs and the concept are like SMOKEY JOE'S CAFE (a revue based on the 1950s songs of Lieber and Stoller). The _very_ brief racial drama reminded me of DINAH WAS and DREAMGIRLS. They form a group, they buy new outfits, they learn how to dance, they cut a record, they split up--stop me if you've heard this plotline before. The songs were wonderful--too wonderful. I felt like rising from my seat: "EXCUSE ME! MISTER SONGWRITER PERSON! IS THAT A RIPOFF OR AN HOMAGE??" "O.K. Bazaars" was part of the curtain design. The following was put in the PLAYBILL: AN AFRIKANER GLOSSARY ("KAT AND THE KINGS" PLAYBILL, pg. 26) WORD PRONUNCIATION TRANSLATION kwela African music Ou oh guy Ouens owens guys Broer brew brother/friend My blah may blah best friend Chommies chommy friends Goose goose girl Goosa goose-sah girl Lightie lightey young person BJ BeeJay yokel/greenhorn Boland Boorland rural area Skollie skolly lout//ruffian Ou pel oh pal old friend Lekker lecker terrific Morgan's Pomade Hair gel Jarmans Men's shoes (brand name) Dop booze Zol a joint Langa A township in Cape Town Nyanga A township in Cape Town Guguleta A township in Cape Town Walmer Estate A residential area above District 6, which was reserved for Coloured people. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 19 04:16:20 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:16:20 EDT Subject: Ivory Tower Message-ID: This is from the BARNHART DICTIONARY OF ETYMOLOGY: The phrase _ivory tower_, meaning a condition of seclusion or withdrawal from the realities of life, is first recorded in English as a translation of the French _tour d'ivoire_ (1911), coined by the French critic and poet Charles A. Sainte-Beuve. The English phrase was then used as a loan translation from the French by Henry James in his novel _The Ivory Tower_ (1916)and popularized by Hart Crane, Ezra Pound, H. G. Wells, Aldous Huxley, and others. Burton Stevenson's quotation book has: Tower of ivory. (Tour d'ivoire.) CHARLES-AUGUSTIN SAINTE-BEUVE, _Pensees d'Aout: A' M. Villemain_. St. 3 (1837). Sainte-Beuve compares Victor Hugo to a feudal baron with his armor on, and then says of Alfred de Vigny, Et Vigny, plus secret, Comme en sa tour d'ivoire, avant midi rentrait. (Citations from Oscar Wilde 1895, Riben Dario 1900, Jules de Gaultier 1908, and Vachel Lindsay 1914 follow--ed.) Checks on the English Poetry and English Drama databases show four "ivory tower" citations before 1700: Francis Quarles, DIVINE POEMS, "Sonnet Sung By Solomon the King" (1632): They Necke doth represent an Ivory Tower, In perfect purenesse, and united power. George Sandys, A PARAPHRASE UPON THE SONG OF SOLOMON (1641): ...Thy Neck, an Ivory Tower displayes... Samuel Slater, EPITHALAMIUM: THE SONG OF SOLOMON (1653): Like to a Tower of Ivory, so is thy neck for state... Samuel Woodford, A PARAPHRASE UPON THE CANTICLES (1679): Thy Neck is like a Tower of Ivory, Hung with the Trophies of Love's Victory. This is from the SONG OF SOLOMON 7:4: Thy neck _is_ a tower of ivory; thine eyes _like_ the fishpools in Heshbon, by the gate of Bathrabbim: thy nose _is_ as the tower of Lebanon which looketh toward Damascus. Check the Anchor Bible series (Doubleday publishers) for commentary on this line. From harview at MONTANA.COM Thu Aug 19 05:48:06 1999 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 23:48:06 -0600 Subject: Ivory Tower In-Reply-To: <91a48718.24ecdf14@aol.com> Message-ID: Does the term gain some reinforcement from the "ivied walls" behind which education occurs (particularly in the Ivy League?)? And interesting to note that all of the pre-1700's quotes refer to "neck": perhaps there is a contrast with the (red)necks of those who picture academicians as living in ivory towers? (; > Checks on the English Poetry and English Drama databases show four >"ivory tower" citations before 1700: > >Francis Quarles, DIVINE POEMS, "Sonnet Sung By Solomon the King" (1632): >They Necke doth represent an Ivory Tower, In perfect purenesse, and united >power. > >George Sandys, A PARAPHRASE UPON THE SONG OF SOLOMON (1641): >...Thy Neck, an Ivory Tower displayes... > >Samuel Slater, EPITHALAMIUM: THE SONG OF SOLOMON (1653): >Like to a Tower of Ivory, so is thy neck for state... > >Samuel Woodford, A PARAPHRASE UPON THE CANTICLES (1679): >Thy Neck is like a Tower of Ivory, Hung with the Trophies of Love's Victory. > > This is from the SONG OF SOLOMON 7:4: > >Thy neck _is_ a tower of ivory; thine eyes _like_ the fishpools in Heshbon, >by the gate of Bathrabbim: thy nose _is_ as the tower of Lebanon which >looketh toward Damascus. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 19 12:03:38 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:03:38 EDT Subject: Something for everyone Message-ID: "Something for everyone--a comedy tonight." --Stephen Sondheim, A FUNNY THING HAPPENED ON THE WAY TO THE FORUM (1962). I ran across a large advertisement in the NEW YORK TIMES, 24 September 1956, pg. 13: "'Something for Everyone' Is The Keynote Of New Season On Channel 4." The Periodicals Contents Index turned up 6 hits between 1953 and 1956. The earliest record before 1953 is "Something for Everyone at Atlantic City" in the NEA BULLETIN, Jan. 1938, pg. 23. The earliest "something for everybody" on the PCI is "Something for Everybody," in the Broadcast Drama section of the LISTENER, Nov. 1937, pg. 1144. It must be an early catch phrase. The Making of America database has it in quotes in the MICHIGAN UNIVERSITY MAGAZINE (1867), pg. 242: ...the publishers say it will be their aim to present in its pages "something for everybody," but those who are fond of reading advertisements have more than their proper share. There was a book SOMETHING FOR EVERYBODY (1846) by Richard Carlton. I haven't seen it yet. Did P. T. Barnum popularize this phrase? The American Museum opened in New York City in 1841. From AAllan at AOL.COM Thu Aug 19 15:04:03 1999 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:04:03 EDT Subject: Brickmush ? Message-ID: Here's a question. If you have an answer, please send it to Kennedy at patkenne at kcls.org as well as to ADS-L. Thanks - Allan Metcalf ----------------------- I work at the King County Library, and I have a patron who has a question that has stumped me. She heard the term "brickmush" used on an old radio program called "Vic and Sade". I have exhausted my resources here using every dictionary and slang dictionary available to me. Could you tell me what this term means or refer me to someone who can? Pat Kennedy Answer Line King County Library System From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 19 15:57:29 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:57:29 EDT Subject: Mania, Divorces and Spent Change Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Bapopik at aol.com Subject: Re: Mania, Divorces and Spent Change Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:56:01 EDT Size: 932 URL: From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Aug 19 17:45:44 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:45:44 -0400 Subject: Brickmush ? Message-ID: Brick mush, as two words? A reference to corn meal mush sold as a solid brick, shaped by a small loaf pan? George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Thu Aug 19 19:11:04 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:11:04 -0500 Subject: "Suicide by Cop" Message-ID: Mr. Barnhart, Does your Dictionary Companion by any chance have a reference to "soft opening." The context is found in an article in the Money Section (C, p. 1) of the NOLA Times-Picayune, "Contractors said the restaurant could hold a soft opening in November and an official opening in December." I have never seen or heard this expression before--the meaning of course is quite clear. ----- Original Message ----- From: Barnhart To: Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 9:12 AM Subject: Re: "Suicide by Cop" > suicide-by-cop > > See The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 11.2). > > One of the interesting features there is the variant _police-assisted > suicide_. > > Nexis reveals for suicide by cop and suicide-by-cop supplied a large > number of examples--overwhelmingly American dating from 1989. > > Regards, > David K. Barnhart, Editor > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 19 20:00:52 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:00:52 EDT Subject: Political Inoculation Message-ID: POLITICAL INOCULATION This is from the NEW YORK PRESS, August 18-24, 1999, pg. 11, by John Ellis: _Inoculation_ In the political trade, Hillary Rodham Clinton's interview with _Talk_ magazine is called "inoculation." Although the metaphor is inexact, the idea is straightforward. A candidate has a political vulnerability that needs to be addressed. The candidate addresses said vulernability in a favorable venue on his or her own terms at a time when few, if any, voters are paying attention. Once the vulnerability has been addressed and the press has had its fill, it's on to the next thing and never look back. The candidate and the campaign apparatus declare all further mention of the subject verboten. "Inoculation" isn't an entry in William Safire's NEW POLITICAL DICTIONARY (1993). A good article is the WASHINGTON POST, 26 April 1988, pg. A5: _"Inoculation" Politics: Candidates Try to Get In the First Shot_ (...) In what has become known as "inoculation politics," candidates who know they are vulnerable on a potentially lethal issue like Social Security raise it early to immunize themselves from an attack that comes too late for recovery. FORTUNE, 25 April 1988, pg. 341, described New York Times columnist Hedrick Smith's book, THE POWER GAME: There's the preemptive leak, which settles an internal debate over whether to make information public by simply leaking it; the inoculation leak, used to break forthcoming bad news--for example, by announcing that interest rates seem likely to rise in a few months; the shortcut leak, which forces immediate presidential attention to a problem by getting it in the press; and the brag leak, which makes someone look good by revealing a brilliant inside maneuver. The SAN DIEGO UNION-TRIBUNE, 17 June 1986, pg. A3: "Cranston's strategists freely admit they are engaing in political 'inoculation'--that is, presenting the lesse-known Zschau's record to the voters on their terms rather than his." -------------------------------------------------------- HOT DOG (continued, of course) This is from the PITTSBURGH POST-GAZETTE (the _second_ torching of my work this summer--"Show Me" was never corrected), 12 August 1999, pg. G3: If it weren't for a newspaper cartoonist, vendors at Pirate games might still be barking, "Get you red hot dachshund sausages!" "Hot dogs" were still something of a novelty in 1906 America, and they went by a variety of names: frankfurters, franks, wieners, red hots, and dachshund sausages. But during a New York Giants game that year, Hearst newspaper cartoonist Tad Dorgan was so inspired by a vendor yelling, "Get you red hot dachshund sausages," that he decided to sketch a dachshund smeared with mustard encased in a bun. It is believed Dorgan couldn't spell the word dachshund so he settled on dog--the caption read "Come get your hot dogs." A Dow Jones check shows that the History Channel not only got things wrong with their documentary HISTORY ON A BUN and with their MILLENNIUM MINUTE, but in _another_ documentary as well. This is from the LOS ANGELES TIMES, 19 July 1999, pg. D2: What: "Modern Marvels: Baseball Parks" Where: The History Channel, tonight, 7 and 11 (...) Before each commercial break of the one-hour program, interesting facts are shown about ball parks. For instance: In 1905, red hot dachshunds on a roll were popular items at ball parks. The name was eventually shortened to hot dogs after a newspaper columnist complained he couldn't spell dachshund. From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Aug 19 20:22:35 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:22:35 -0400 Subject: Soft opening. Message-ID: Quite a few hits, using AltaVista's search engine. Very quick review showed one use at a site dated 1 March 1996. [Didn't realize that usage was widespread.] George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From patkenne at KCLS.ORG Thu Aug 19 20:54:36 1999 From: patkenne at KCLS.ORG (Pat Kennedy) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:54:36 -0700 Subject: Brickmush ? In-Reply-To: <37BC42C7.A1727902@ark.ship.edu> Message-ID: No sorry, because brickmush was applied to a man as in the brickmush man is coming tomorrow. But Thanks anyway. On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, G S C wrote: > Brick mush, as two words? A reference to corn meal mush sold as a solid > brick, shaped by a small loaf pan? > > George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu > Shippensburg University > From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Aug 19 22:11:13 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:11:13 -0400 Subject: Brickmush ? Message-ID: Looks as though Barry's concern with context, and one of his accompanying statements, might be closer to the mark. Several years ago, a neighbor of mine mentioned that some re-plastering work had to be done in his house. [His home had a layer of plaster on top of drywall sheets.] He spoke (several times) of having been lucky to find a mushman to do the plaster work. According to my neighbor, mushmen were folk who could apply plaster to wall lathe, or apply a layer of plaster on top of wallboard or drywall. The mushman did not work with drywall, as in installing it, but he would apply plaster over top of drywall, or patch a hole in drywall. [My presumption was that the plaster mixture was the mush.] In any event, in this era, mushmen were difficult to find. Generally, it can be presumed that standard wall-plaster is better than corn meal, for patching walls. Hope that this info is closer to the mark, even though it doesn't fully provide the answer for brickmush man. George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From gsmith at EWU.EDU Thu Aug 19 23:39:24 1999 From: gsmith at EWU.EDU (Grant Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:39:24 -0800 Subject: CPF reminder Message-ID: This is a last minute reminder of two CFPs -- ANS meetings in Chicago with MLA (12/27-30) and with LSA (1/6-9) CALLS FOR PAPERS 1. Annual Meeting--American Name Society Dec. 27-30, 1999 Chicago Renaissance Hotel At least twelve panels are currently planned. Presentations should be timed for a maximum of 20 minutes, plus 10 minutes for discussion. All disciplinary approaches are welcomed--anthropological, psychological, sociological, linguistic, literary, philosophical, geographic, or historical. Subject matter is also open, including personal names, geographic names, corporate names, team names, names in literature, and cultural or linguistic function. Short abstracts (150 words max.) should be sent by September 1 to: Grant Smith, President, American Name Society. Submission as part of an email message (not an attachment) is preferred . For those without email, the postal address is Eastern Washington University, MS-25, Cheney, WA 99004 or Fax: 509-359-4269. All proposals will be blind refereed, and presenters will be notified by September 20. Abstracts of all presentations will be published in annual "Proceedings." 2. Special Session on Onomastics Joint Meeting American Name Society and Linguistic Society of America January 6-9, 2000 Chicago Send an abstract of 100-200 words (20-minute paper) by 8/25/99 to Abstracts may be submitted by e-mail to Donald M. Lance or, Professor Donald M. Lance Department of English l07 Tate Hall University of Missouri Columbia, Missouri 65211 Grant W. Smith, President Phone: 509-359-6023 American Name Society Fax: 509-359-4269 Prof. English/Coord. Humanities Email: gsmith at ewu.edu Eastern Washington University, MS-25 526 Fifth St. Cheney, WA 99004-2431 From mcclay at PROQC.COM.TW Thu Aug 19 16:17:54 1999 From: mcclay at PROQC.COM.TW (Russ McClay) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:17:54 +0800 Subject: Abraham Lincolns tone of voice and accent Message-ID: PTcurtis at AOL.COM wrote: > > I have always been curious as to how the Gettysburg address may have actually > sounded when delivered by President Lincoln. Does any one know of any studies > that may be able to reconstruct Lincolns voice based on stories and more > scientific studies of his throat structure from photographs and dialect of > his era and locality. Having just sat through Great Moments with Mr Lincoln at Disneyland and looking at the exhibits about how the project was developed I would imagine dialect was an important part of the work. Russ From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Fri Aug 20 02:22:54 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 21:22:54 -0500 Subject: Soft opening. Message-ID: Thanks; neither did I. I wonder whether the March '96 date is the earliest? ----- Original Message ----- From: G S C To: Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 3:22 PM Subject: Soft opening. > Quite a few hits, using AltaVista's search engine. Very quick review > showed one use at a site dated 1 March 1996. [Didn't realize that usage > was widespread.] > > George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu > Shippensburg University From pmeier at EAGLE.CC.UKANS.EDU Fri Aug 20 02:07:31 1999 From: pmeier at EAGLE.CC.UKANS.EDU (Paul Meier) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 21:07:31 -0500 Subject: on-line dialects archive Message-ID: I invite your perusal of and suggestions about a small prototype project here at the University of Kansas. We have called it IDEA (International Dialects of English Archive) and it may be found at www.ukans.edu/~idea Please bear in mind that the primary constituents for this service are theatre and film artists. Although it has been put together on a shoestring budget, if IDEA can accommodate in its future development the needs of more diverse and more scholarly research agendas, that would please us too. All comments and suggestions gratefully received off-line. Paul Meier Associate Professor Theatre and Film University of Kansas -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 446 bytes Desc: Card for Paul Meier URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Aug 20 06:13:05 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 02:13:05 EDT Subject: "Uniboob" Message-ID: Nike has had members of the U. S. women's soccer team promote the company's sports bras, which supposedly avoid "uniboob." The Nike site is at www.nike.com. (There is an entry for "the F-Word," but it means "Footwear.") "Uniboob" goes back to at least 1996 on a deja.com search. My guess is that the term was probably started by a women's magazine--Nexis will probably come close, but not give us the direct hit. From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Fri Aug 20 10:42:15 1999 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 06:42:15 -0400 Subject: "Uniboob" Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 2:19 AM Subject: "Uniboob" > Nike has had members of the U. S. women's soccer team promote the >company's sports bras, which supposedly avoid "uniboob." > The Nike site is at www.nike.com. (There is an entry for "the F-Word," >but it means "Footwear.") > "Uniboob" goes back to at least 1996 on a deja.com search. My guess is >that the term was probably started by a women's magazine--Nexis will probably >come close, but not give us the direct hit. Monobreast might predate it. Though the oldest Deja hit is November '96, it was used at Mainframe Entertainment who produced the computer animated cartoon 'Reboot' from '94-'97. The first two years, the series aired on ABC on Saturday mornings, and Standards and Practices forbade a female character from having the usual arrangement. Internally, they referred to the resulting arrangement as a 'monobreast'. The third season aired only in the morally decadent foreign market (and recently on the Cartoon Network here in the States), so the company rejoiced in their newfound freedom to grace all the humanoid female characters with a more accurate image. Monobreast gets a September '97 hit in a video game newsgroup, undoubtedly from audience overlap, and is first spotted in regards to clothing in March of '98 on Deja. Monoboob goes back to February of '96, but is used exclusively in apparel discussions. Bruce From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Fri Aug 20 12:21:23 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 08:21:23 -0400 Subject: Cows Message-ID: >From http://www.oregonlive.com:80/news/99/08/st081608.html "They bought a motor home, a good-sized one but not one of the Cows, or 'condominiums on wheels' as Bill Brand explains." From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Aug 20 13:28:46 1999 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 09:28:46 -0400 Subject: Nexis on soft opening Message-ID: The earliest Nexis evidence: LEVEL 1 - 2625 OF 2626 STORIES Copyright 1982 The Financial Times Limited Financial Times (London) February 16, 1982, Tuesday SECTION: SECTION III; Financial Times Survey; Qatar VI; Businessman's Guide; Pg. VI LENGTH: 1044 words BYLINE: Mary Frings BODY: ... on rare occasions when two major conferences coincide, or when the Qatar National Football Team descends in force on a hotel. But once the Sheraton Hotel comes into full operation (after its " soft" opening next week) there is likely to be an embarrassment of choice. The Gulf Hotel (at around $90 a night for a single room) is currently the most popular, although the neighbouring Oasis Hotel has a ... Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Aug 20 14:28:32 1999 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:28:32 -0400 Subject: another meaning of soft opening Message-ID: Here's another meaning of soft opening. LEVEL 1 - 2624 OF 2626 STORIES Copyright 1982 The New York Times Company The New York Times July 27, 1982, Tuesday, Late City Final Edition SECTION: Section A; Page 21, Column 1; Sports Desk LENGTH: 878 words HEADLINE: TV SPORTS; NETWORKS ON GOLF: VARIED APPROACHES BYLINE: By Neil Amdur ... last four holes to win by six strokes. Setting the proper scene is critical to any continuing sports s tory. In golf, the mood is essential to a telecast. In contrast to NBC's soft opening, Bob Goodrich, the ABC producer, w as on target with a capsule news ''tease'' of the third-round l eaders and follow-ups on the significance of the Open, brief shots o f Sacramento and ... From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU Fri Aug 20 15:11:52 1999 From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:11:52 -0500 Subject: "Uniboob" Message-ID: > Nike has had members of the U. S. women's soccer team promote the >company's sports bras, which supposedly avoid "uniboob." > The Nike site is at www.nike.com. (There is an entry for "the F-Word," >but it means "Footwear.") > "Uniboob" goes back to at least 1996 on a deja.com search. My guess is >that the term was probably started by a women's magazine--Nexis will probably >come close, but not give us the direct hit. I doubt very much that it was started by a magazine--it more likely came out of casual conversation. It's probably one of those words that gets re-coined repeatedly (and everyone thinks they're the first one to do it--monosexual is like that too). I bought a dress in 1991 that gave me uniboob--I can't remember whether my pals and I called it uniboob--i think we called it "monobreast". Lynne Murphy Dept of English Baylor U Waco, TX 76798 From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Fri Aug 20 16:28:56 1999 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:28:56 -0400 Subject: Brickmush ? Message-ID: By analogy, perhaps the brickmush man applies "mortar mush" between bricks? Since I need to have repair work done on my fireplace, I'll ask about it. At 06:11 PM 8/19/99 -0400, you wrote: >Looks as though Barry's concern with context, and one of his >accompanying statements, might be closer to the mark. Several years >ago, a neighbor of mine mentioned that some re-plastering work had to be >done in his house. [His home had a layer of plaster on top of drywall >sheets.] He spoke (several times) of having been lucky to find a >mushman to do the plaster work. According to my neighbor, mushmen were >folk who could apply plaster to wall lathe, or apply a layer of plaster >on top of wallboard or drywall. The mushman did not work with drywall, >as in installing it, but he would apply plaster over top of drywall, or >patch a hole in drywall. [My presumption was that the plaster mixture >was the mush.] In any event, in this era, mushmen were difficult to >find. > >Generally, it can be presumed that standard wall-plaster is better than >corn meal, for patching walls. > >Hope that this info is closer to the mark, even though it doesn't fully >provide the answer for brickmush man. > >George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu >Shippensburg University > From SMH0915 at MAIL.ECU.EDU Fri Aug 20 18:28:30 1999 From: SMH0915 at MAIL.ECU.EDU (Healy, Shannon Michelle) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 14:28:30 -0400 Subject: REMOVAL Message-ID: Please remove me from your mailing list. Thank you Shannon From pulliam at IIT.EDU Fri Aug 20 19:28:10 1999 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 14:28:10 -0500 Subject: port Message-ID: Has the programmer usage of _port_ as a transitive verb (presumably backformed from portable?) meaning "to adjust a program written for one platform (e.g. MacOS) to run on a different platform (e.g., Linux or Windows) been documented? I suspect it has, but my less-than-brand-new references here at home don't show it. Example: "Microsoft didn't just port its Windows version of Internet Explorer 4.5 to the MacOS, they wrote it from the ground up in native Mac code." Thanks! - Greg From lix at CWU.EDU Sat Aug 21 00:46:15 1999 From: lix at CWU.EDU (Xingzhong Li) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:46:15 -0800 Subject: Removal Message-ID: Please remove me from your list. From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Sat Aug 21 00:33:21 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:33:21 -0700 Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Message-ID: OK, from the Merriam-Webster "Word of the Day" site today (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/mwwod.pl): taradiddle * \tare-uh-DIH-dle or TARE-uh-dih-dle\ * (noun) 1 : fib *2 : pretentious nonsense Example sentence: Business writer Don Larson didn't mince words when he criticized a story as "the worst collection of falsehoods, fabrications, misrepresentations, deceptions and just plain old-fashioned taradiddle that I have ever read." Did you know? The true origin of "taradiddle" is unknown, but that doesn't mean you won't hear a lot of balderdash about its history. Some folks try to relate it to the verb "diddle" (meaning "to cheat"), but that hasn't been proven and may turn out to be poppycock. Then there's some tommyrot claiming it comes from the Old English verb "didrian," which meant "to deceive," but that couldn't be true unless "didrian" was somehow suddenly revived after eight or nine centuries of disuse. No one even knows when "taradiddle" was first used. It must have been long before it showed up in a 1796 dictionary of colloquial speech (where it was defined as a synonym of "fib"), but if we claimed we knew who said it first, we'd be dishing out pure applesauce. * Indicates the sense illustrated in the example sentence. --------------------------- I have my own theory: it comes from Scarlett O'Hara. After all, she used to say "fiddle-dee-dee" a lot, and her home was "Tara". Clearly it comes from "Gone with the Wind". There. Maybe I can get my etymology published all over the place! Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Aug 21 09:09:42 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 05:09:42 EDT Subject: "What's it to you?" Message-ID: WHAT'S IT TO YOU? The Making of America database works in some strange ways. It will NOT recognize "What's it to you?" It WILL recognize "What s it to you?" Couldn't they work out this kink?? Eric Partridge has "what's it to you?" (what concern is it of yours?) as a U.S. c.p. dating from c. 1919. However, he has "what's that to me?" from 1837, and states that it's US, esp. New England, C19-20. I found a bunch of "what's it to you?"/"what is it to you?"/"what's that to you?"/"what is that to you?" I haven't yet checked Accessible Archives. "What's that to you?" is on pg. 182 in POEMS AND PROSE WRITINGS (1830) by Richard Henry Dana. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- I'M FROM MISSOURI "I m from Missouri" was in the OVERLAND MONTHLY, December 1887, pg. 625, but no "Show Me" context was there. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- Maybe I'll do a monster posting of a few hundred antedates before my trip to Switzerland... From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Aug 21 14:32:55 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 07:32:55 PDT Subject: Dixie Message-ID: For what it's worth, I just ran across this at (http://freespace.virgin.net/john.cletheroe/usa_can/usa/dixie.htm). It gives the "dix" note and "[Mason-]Dixon" theory, along with the following, an interesting variant: ------- >From songs sung by black slaves about "Dixie's", the name of a slaveowner (possibly fictional) who treated slaves well. ------- DEJ _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU Sat Aug 21 22:40:03 1999 From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 17:40:03 -0500 Subject: "What's it to you?" Message-ID: >From: Bapopik at AOL.COM ... >Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999, 4:09 AM >--------------------------------------------- >I'M FROM MISSOURI > > "I m from Missouri" was in the OVERLAND MONTHLY, December 1887, pg. 625, >but no "Show Me" context was there. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >--------------------------------------------- > Maybe I'll do a monster posting of a few hundred antedates before my >trip to Switzerland... Well, Barry, I'm from Missouri, so show me. And let me know if you come up with early "pronunciation spellings" of Missouri-uh. DMLance From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Aug 22 02:14:24 1999 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:14:24 -0600 Subject: "hot dog"--another correction Message-ID: In an Aug. 19 message, Barry Popik critically quotes two newspaper article s which repeat the erroneous treatment of the History Channel concerning the origin of "hot dog." But within the overall context of the History Channel's erroneous treatment, one mistake (already frequently made previously) deserves refutation: "It is believed Dorgan couldn't spell the word dachshund so he settled on dog--the caption read 'Come get your hot dogs'." For the record, T.A. Dorgan was not only a sports cartoonist but a sportswriter, and a very good one. Most likely, he was in fact able to spell "dachshund," but in any case, his newspaper office surely had a dictionary handy. Are we really supposed to believe that this very literate man was too lazy to look up a word in the dictionary if he had doubts about its spelling? -----Gerald Cohen >HOT DOG (continued, of course) > > This is from the PITTSBURGH POST-GAZETTE (the _second_ torching of my >work this summer--"Show Me" was never corrected), 12 August 1999, pg. G3: > > If it weren't for a newspaper cartoonist, vendors at Pirate games >might still be barking, "Get you red hot dachshund sausages!" > "Hot dogs" were still something of a novelty in 1906 America, and >they went by a variety of names: frankfurters, franks, wieners, red hots, >and dachshund sausages. But during a New York Giants game that year, >Hearst newspaper cartoonist Tad Dorgan was so inspired by a vendor >yelling, "Get you red hot dachshund sausages," that he decided to sketch a >dachshund smeared with mustard encased in a bun. It is believed Dorgan >couldn't spell the word dachshund so he settled on dog--the caption read >"Come get your hot dogs." > > A Dow Jones check shows that the History Channel not only got things >wrong with their documentary HISTORY ON A BUN and with their MILLENNIUM >MINUTE, but in _another_ documentary as well. This is from the LOS >ANGELES TIMES, 19 July 1999, pg. D2: > >What: "Modern Marvels: Baseball Parks" >Where: The History Channel, tonight, 7 and 11 > (...) Before each commercial break of the one-hour program, >interesting facts are shown about ball parks. For instance: In 1905, red >hot dachshunds on a roll were popular items at ball parks. The name was >eventually shortened to hot dogs after a newspaper columnist complained he >couldn't spell dachshund. gcohen at umr.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Aug 22 02:56:40 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 22:56:40 EDT Subject: "Missouri" spellings on MOA Message-ID: "Missouri" has 26,650 matches in 2,719 works in the Making of America database. "Missoury" has 11 matches in 8 works (one work is counted twice): Southern Literary Messenger, June 1863 Overland Monthly, September 1875 Overland Monthly, December 1884 Overland Monthly, June 1885 Overland Monthly, June 1887 Overland Monthly, April 1889 Overland Monthly, December 1896 "Missoura" has only one match--Overland Monthly, February 1869. "Mizzoorah" has two matches. One is Eugene Field, SECOND BOOK OF VERSE (1908). The other (which is also the only match for "Mizzouri") is APPLETONS' JOURNAL, October 1881, pg. 320, col. 2, "English and American English" by Richard A. Proctor: "...Mizzouri (in the South and West, Missouri is called Mizzoorah)..." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 23 00:34:18 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 20:34:18 EDT Subject: Sports Illustrated, 1964-66 Message-ID: SPEED BUMP cartoon (www.creators.com), 20 August 1999, said by a man selling Jumbo Arts & Crafts Supplies: "Well, it does contain the full nine yards and the whole ball of wax, but this kit does not come with a kaboodle." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- I've been going through SPORTS ILLUSTRATED 1964-1966 looking for the "whole nine yards." I didn't find it in the few issues I saw, but there's lots of other good stuff. A TIE IS LIKE KISSING YOUR SISTER--5 December 1966, pg. 115, col. 1. This continues the previous posting on this term. The phrase therefore did not originate in Texas in 1976. This was a famous tie game between Michigan State and Notre Dame. MSU coach Duffy Daugherty allegedly used the line after this game, although I didn't find it in the original story on Nov. 28. Perhaps someone at MSU can check. This headlines the letters column. _SISTERLY KISS_ DUNK--5 December 1966, pg. 40, col. 1. The BDE has the basketball "dunk" from 1955. The line of giants began with Bob (Foothills) Kurland of Oklahoma State (then Oklahoma A&M). Kurland, who was just a shade under 7 feet, led his team to national championships in 1945 and 1946, brought into the game and the vernacular the revolutionary "dunk shot," and was personally responsible for the writing of a goaltending law... MANO A MANO--5 December 1966, pg. 71, col. 1. The RHHDAS has "mano" only, from 1967. ...phooey on collapsing zones and sagging _mano a mano_... TOUCHDOWN JESUS--21 November 1966, pg. 98, col. 1. A letter to the magazine. Congratulations to Dan Jenkins on recapturing some of that elusive and long dormant Notre Dame spirit. But why did Dan fail to give the figure of Christ in the huge mosaic on the library the name by which He is best known to all students and alumni--"Touchdown Jesus"? Was he afraid of offending ND alumni? (7 November 1966, pg. 72, col. 2: Someone in South Bend, Ind., will show you the statue of Father Corby outside a priests' residence near Sorin Hall, the aging bronze mold of a man holding up his right arm ("There's old fair-catch Corby"). Someone will point to a more modern chunk of metal, Moses, near the library, an arm uplifted, forefinger gesturing to the heavens ("We're No. 1"). Someone will show you another figure, this one in the huge mosaic on the library--Christ raising both arms ("Six points").) NOW YOU SEE IT, NOW YOU DON'T--28 November 1966, pg. 61, col. 2. The phrase is from magic, but is not in the RHHDAS. ...the fine now-you-see-me-now-you-don't running backs... HOW'S THE WEATHER UP THERE?--5 December 1966, pg. 41, col. 1. Cliches said to a very tall person, in this case UCLA's Lew Alcindor. "You've heard them all: 'Watch your head.' 'How's the weather up there?' 'You must have trouble sleeping.' All that. The one I hear most now"--here Alcindor looks up--"is 'Boy, and I thought I was tall.'" DOG MEAT--14 November 1966, pg. 102, col. 1. The title of this bridge-playing story is "The Dogmeat Was Hard to Swallow." We were both what the experts describe as "dogmeat," "bait" or "fish." A once-a-month game with the neighbors was our milieu, and the neighbors aren't named Goren. PSYCHS--14 November 1966, pg. 106, col. 2. From the same story as the above. "Do you bid psychs?" (A psychic bid, or psych, is any utterly meaningless bid, completely unjustified by the cards you hold, and if you make such crazy bids, which we didn't, you must announce your habit to the opponents in advance, which we hadn't.) JELL--14 November 1966, pg. 84 (copy is unclear), col. 2. Sports teams often "jell"--unfortunately, not into strawberry. "The team has jelled," said Fran Tarkenton... HEALTHY BODY, HEALTHY MIND--19 December 1966, pg. 106, col. 1. This seems like a classic quotation going back to the Greek athletes, but my quote books don't have it. The well-known formula, "in a healthy body a healthy mind," is a highly dubious one if applied universally. In the normal view, a healthy mind is, above all, a kind one. But Hitler, for example, spared no expense on the physical education of young people, with aims quite other than the development of kindness in them. MISTER CLEAN--19 December 1966, pg. M3, col. 2. The RHHDAS has "Mister Clean" from 1971. Fans keep a close check on the state of his (Pittsburgh Steeler Charlie Bradshaw--ed.) uniform and from time to time admonish, "Ya oughta be ashamed to pick up ya pay, Mr. Clean." YOU'D SWEAR THEY CAME OUT OF THE STANDS TO TACKLE YOU--12 December 1966, pg. 18, col. 2. This football cliche is not recorded. Buoniconti and the Pats used to put on a blitz that resembled a stampede. "They hit you with so many guys," (Jack--ed.) Kemp once said, "that you'd swear half a dozen of them came out of the stands." MY COACHING HAS IMPROVED--21 September 1964, pg. 67, col. 1. A cliche said by a coach after a superstar joins the team. "My coaching," he (Illinois coach Pete Elliott--ed.) says, "improved 100% last season." What really improved Pete's coaching was the presence of such edifying specimens as Dick Butkus... ...CONSIDERING--4 September 1964, pg. 35, col. 2. I haven't seen this recorded. Harley said, "You didn't do too bad...considering." He was very serious, really trying, consciously, to keep me from remembering and being humiliated. PLAY THE PERCENTAGES--7 September 1964, pg. 83, col. 1. Probably taken from baseball and horse-racing. "I play percentages," he says, "and let Jerry (Kramer, the Green Bay center--ed.) do the reading. For instance, on pass rushes, players have a tendency to go either inside or out most of the time. I know from experience which to expect and concentrate on." NINTH INNING...FIVE YARD LINE--21 November 1966, pg. 64, cols. 2-3. Yogi Berra doesn't say all of these. Shortly before the election _Charles Percy_, the Republican candidate for the Senate from Illinois, told a sports rally: "We're down to the ninth inning with the ball on the five-yard line." He won anyway. SO WHAT ELSE IS NEW--3 August 1964, pg. 59. The ads for Dial Soap used hip phrases. Another ad on 6 July 1964, pg. 1, was "Play it cool." So what else is new FIFTEEN MINUTES--20 July 1964, pg. 62, col. 1. Andy Warhol's "famous" quote four years later was that, in the future, everyone would be famous for 15 minutes. However, this earlier ad by the President's Council on Physical Fitness showed a clock with a kid's hands for hands. Just 15 minutes of vigorous activity--during a daily physical education period--can improve the physical fitness of our nation's youth. JUDY! JUDY! JUDY!--14 September 1964, pg. 28, cols. 1-2. I thought that this excerpt from George Plimpton's PAPER LION might have pre-dated the Cary Grant line (that he never actually said in a film), but see the web site at www.ifb.co.uk/~pingu/cg/judy.htm. ..."blue! blue! blue!" which indicated a variety of zone coverage or "red! red! red!" which designated man-on-man coverage. The defensive code words varied. When Jim Ninowski, a former Lions quarterback, was traded from Detroit to Cleveland, the defensive signals, which Ninowski knew, of course, had to be changed when the two teams met--from colors to girls' names, it was decided. One of them was Ninowski's young wife's name--Judy, I think it was. He would call a play in the huddle and come up behind his center to hear the linebackers across the line all hollering "Judy! Judy! Judy!" The Lions hoped that this would jar him somewhat. LOST, BUT MAKING GREAT TIME--New York Times Magazine, 8 January 1956, pg. 26, col. 2. "Have You Heard This One?" is a roundup of jokes of the day. This continues a previous posting on this term--which was not coined by Yogi Berra in the 1970s. A man who was wildly enthusiastic about his driving ability was taking a trip with his wife. After traveling a great distance, she consulted a map and told him they were lost. "What's the difference?" he said. "We're making great time." From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Aug 23 01:51:39 1999 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 19:51:39 -0600 Subject: Misunderstandings of lyrics Message-ID: For some years I have been collecting examples of children misunderstanding such items as "round yon virgin" ("Round John Virgin") and "Pontius Pilate" ("Pontius Pilot," resulting in a third grader drawing a Christimas picture featuring an airplane with a mother, father and baby, plus one additional man in the front; the additional man was "Pontius Pilot"). Recently I received an e-mail message reportedly taken off the Internet. It presents a list of such misunderstandings plus some, evidently, made by adults; I do not vouch for the authenticity of every one: > > Mondegreens Ripped My Flesh > >Here at the Center for the Humane Study of Mondegreens, we've been >toting up the entries and applying the latest statistical correlative >methods, >even using our toes, to arrive at a semi-definitive answer. > >We believe that the most frequently submitted Mondegreen is still "Gladly, >the cross-eyed bear" (known in the real world as that fine old hymn "Gladly >The Cross I'd Bear"). A close second is "There's a bathroom on the right," a >mishearing of "There's a bad moon on the rise" from the old Creedence >Clearwater song "Bad Moon Rising." > >Third place is still firmly held by "Excuse me while I kiss this guy," >actually >"Excuse me while I kiss the sky" from the Jimi Hendrix song "Purple Haze." >Mr. Hendrix was himself aware that he had been Mondegreened, and would >occasionally, in performance, actually kiss a guy after saying that line. > >Fourth place is probably occupied by Round John Virgin, a Shakespearean >figure occasionally found in "Silent Night." Also high on the charts is a >Mondegreen from "Groovin'", a popular song of an earlier era. (Kids, >"groovin'" was kind of like "chillin'" except the clothing fit more >tightly). > >In that song, the Rascals were singing "You and me endlessly," but many >people heard "You and me and Leslie," leading to speculation about the >exact identity of Leslie and the popularity of multiple couplings in the >music >world. > >For those of you who have not yet received the pamphlet (mailed free to >anyone who buys me an automobile), the word Mondegreen, meaning a >mishearing of a popular phrase or song lyric, was coined by the writer >Sylvia > Wright. > >As a child she had heard the Scottish ballad "The Bonny Earl of Murray" >and had believed that one stanza went like this: > > Ye Highlands and Ye Lowlands > Oh where hae you been? > They hae slay the Earl of Murray, > And Lady Mondegreen. > >Poor Lady Mondegreen, thought Sylvia Wright. A tragic heroine dying with > her liege; how poetic. When it turned out, some years later, that what >they >had actually done was slay the Earl of Murray and lay him on the green, >Wright was so distraught by the sudden disappearance of her heroine that >she memorialized her with a neologism. > >This space has been for some years the chief publicity agent for >Mondegreens. The Oxford English Dictionary has not yet seen the light, but >it will, it will. > >The pledge of allegiance is such a hotbed of Mondegreens that one could >create a composite of submitted entries: "I pledge a lesion to the flag, of >the >United State of America, and to the republic for Richard Stans, one naked >individual, with liver tea and just this for all." > >This formulation is elderly enough to have predated "under God," which is >just as well; it would be a shame to lose "one naked individual." > >There are Mondegreens in familiar phrases. A friend of Adair Lara's >believed for years that we live in a "doggy dog world" populated by pushy >people with a "no holes barred" attitude, while a friend of Carolyn Stone's > >believed that World War II was fought between the Zees and the Not Zees. > > >B. Young was charmed to hear that both Coke and Pepsi came in >"cheerleader size." Later, he was disappointed to learn that it was actually >"two litre size." Florence Jarreth was interested in the new "Jeep >Parakeet," >but less interested in the new "Jeep Cherokee." > >James Lauder recounted the story of the pet shop clerk who told him, in all >seriousness, that her parents' wealth did them no good at all because they >just sat around their backyard deck in Marin and "drank themselves to >Bolivia." >Geoffrey Gould's mother was convinced that if, say, you were moving a vase >to a high shelf because small children were about to come over, you were >moving said vase "out of arm's sway." Stephanie von Buchau always >believed, correctly, I should think, that "a soft dancer turneth away >wrath." > >But the overwhelming majority of Mondegreens come from song lyrics. >Remember on the East Side and the West Side when me and Mamie >O'Rourke "risked our lives in traffic"? Remember when Simon and >Garfunkel sang hauntingly about how "partially saved was Mary and Tom"? >Remember that touching moment in "I'm in the Mood for Love" when the >singer reveals his favorite nickname for his beloved? > > I'm in the mood for love, > Simply because you're near me, > Funny Butt, when you're near me ... > >There was the Bob Dylan song with the memorable refrain: "Dead ants are >my friends, they're blowin' in the wind." There was the great Crystal Gayle >song "Doughnuts Make Your Brown Eyes Blue." There was the equally > wonderful Maria Muldaur song "Midnight After You're Wasted." > >Val Kruger heard Jose Feliciano's famous recording of "Feliz Navidad" as >"Police naughty dog," and now so will you. Barry McCarthy mentioned >another popular Spanish song, "One Ton Tomato." Melissa McChesney >always heard "My baby likes the Western movies" as "My baby's like a wet >sock moving." > >Two great Paul McCartney Mondegreens: The lines of French in "Michelle" >were heard by Kathy Stawhorn's daughter as "Michelle, ma bell, Sunday >monkey won't play piano song, play piano song." Several people have heard >the line in "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds" that goes "the girl with >kaleidoscope eyes" as "the girl with colitis goes by." > > There are many more; many more -- I have envelopes stuffed >with them. But our eyes grow weary and our stomachs grow hungry; we must >now, in the words of the old Christmas carol, "sleep in heavenly peas." gcohen at umr.edu From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Mon Aug 23 02:28:58 1999 From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:28:58 -0400 Subject: Misunderstandings of lyrics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can't vouch for the authenticity of the examples, but the author is veteran San Francisco columnist Jon Carroll, who has been collecting mondegreens for years. He has done several articles on the subject (a time-honored columnists' technique technically known as "milking"). See http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/carroll/ for more. At 09:51 PM 8/22/99 , Gerald Cohen wrote: > For some years I have been collecting examples of children >misunderstanding such items as "round yon virgin" ("Round John Virgin") >and "Pontius Pilate" ("Pontius Pilot," resulting in a third grader drawing >a Christimas picture featuring an airplane with a mother, father and baby, >plus one additional man in the front; the additional man was "Pontius >Pilot"). > > Recently I received an e-mail message reportedly taken off the >Internet. It presents a list of such misunderstandings plus some, >evidently, made by adults; I do not vouch for the authenticity of every >one: > > > > Mondegreens Ripped My Flesh > > > >Here at the Center for the Humane Study of Mondegreens, we've been > >toting up the entries and applying the latest statistical correlative > >methods, > >even using our toes, to arrive at a semi-definitive answer. > > > >We believe that the most frequently submitted Mondegreen is still "Gladly, > >the cross-eyed bear" (known in the real world as that fine old hymn "Gladly > >The Cross I'd Bear"). A close second is "There's a bathroom on the right," a > >mishearing of "There's a bad moon on the rise" from the old Creedence > >Clearwater song "Bad Moon Rising." > > > >Third place is still firmly held by "Excuse me while I kiss this guy," > >actually > >"Excuse me while I kiss the sky" from the Jimi Hendrix song "Purple Haze." > >Mr. Hendrix was himself aware that he had been Mondegreened, and would > >occasionally, in performance, actually kiss a guy after saying that line. > > > >Fourth place is probably occupied by Round John Virgin, a Shakespearean > >figure occasionally found in "Silent Night." Also high on the charts is a > >Mondegreen from "Groovin'", a popular song of an earlier era. (Kids, > >"groovin'" was kind of like "chillin'" except the clothing fit more > >tightly). > > > >In that song, the Rascals were singing "You and me endlessly," but many > >people heard "You and me and Leslie," leading to speculation about the > >exact identity of Leslie and the popularity of multiple couplings in the > >music > >world. > > > >For those of you who have not yet received the pamphlet (mailed free to > >anyone who buys me an automobile), the word Mondegreen, meaning a > >mishearing of a popular phrase or song lyric, was coined by the writer > >Sylvia > > Wright. > > > >As a child she had heard the Scottish ballad "The Bonny Earl of Murray" > >and had believed that one stanza went like this: > > > > Ye Highlands and Ye Lowlands > > Oh where hae you been? > > They hae slay the Earl of Murray, > > And Lady Mondegreen. > > > >Poor Lady Mondegreen, thought Sylvia Wright. A tragic heroine dying with > > her liege; how poetic. When it turned out, some years later, that what > >they > >had actually done was slay the Earl of Murray and lay him on the green, > >Wright was so distraught by the sudden disappearance of her heroine that > >she memorialized her with a neologism. > > > >This space has been for some years the chief publicity agent for > >Mondegreens. The Oxford English Dictionary has not yet seen the light, but > >it will, it will. > > > >The pledge of allegiance is such a hotbed of Mondegreens that one could > >create a composite of submitted entries: "I pledge a lesion to the flag, of > >the > >United State of America, and to the republic for Richard Stans, one naked > >individual, with liver tea and just this for all." > > > >This formulation is elderly enough to have predated "under God," which is > >just as well; it would be a shame to lose "one naked individual." > > > >There are Mondegreens in familiar phrases. A friend of Adair Lara's > >believed for years that we live in a "doggy dog world" populated by pushy > >people with a "no holes barred" attitude, while a friend of Carolyn Stone's > > > >believed that World War II was fought between the Zees and the Not Zees. > > > > > >B. Young was charmed to hear that both Coke and Pepsi came in > >"cheerleader size." Later, he was disappointed to learn that it was actually > >"two litre size." Florence Jarreth was interested in the new "Jeep > >Parakeet," > >but less interested in the new "Jeep Cherokee." > > > >James Lauder recounted the story of the pet shop clerk who told him, in all > >seriousness, that her parents' wealth did them no good at all because they > >just sat around their backyard deck in Marin and "drank themselves to > >Bolivia." > >Geoffrey Gould's mother was convinced that if, say, you were moving a vase > >to a high shelf because small children were about to come over, you were > >moving said vase "out of arm's sway." Stephanie von Buchau always > >believed, correctly, I should think, that "a soft dancer turneth away > >wrath." > > > >But the overwhelming majority of Mondegreens come from song lyrics. > >Remember on the East Side and the West Side when me and Mamie > >O'Rourke "risked our lives in traffic"? Remember when Simon and > >Garfunkel sang hauntingly about how "partially saved was Mary and Tom"? > >Remember that touching moment in "I'm in the Mood for Love" when the > >singer reveals his favorite nickname for his beloved? > > > > I'm in the mood for love, > > Simply because you're near me, > > Funny Butt, when you're near me ... > > > >There was the Bob Dylan song with the memorable refrain: "Dead ants are > >my friends, they're blowin' in the wind." There was the great Crystal Gayle > >song "Doughnuts Make Your Brown Eyes Blue." There was the equally > > wonderful Maria Muldaur song "Midnight After You're Wasted." > > > >Val Kruger heard Jose Feliciano's famous recording of "Feliz Navidad" as > >"Police naughty dog," and now so will you. Barry McCarthy mentioned > >another popular Spanish song, "One Ton Tomato." Melissa McChesney > >always heard "My baby likes the Western movies" as "My baby's like a wet > >sock moving." > > > >Two great Paul McCartney Mondegreens: The lines of French in "Michelle" > >were heard by Kathy Stawhorn's daughter as "Michelle, ma bell, Sunday > >monkey won't play piano song, play piano song." Several people have heard > >the line in "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds" that goes "the girl with > >kaleidoscope eyes" as "the girl with colitis goes by." > > > > There are many more; many more -- I have envelopes stuffed > >with them. But our eyes grow weary and our stomachs grow hungry; we must > >now, in the words of the old Christmas carol, "sleep in heavenly peas." > > > > > >gcohen at umr.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 23 04:37:59 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:37:59 EDT Subject: Updating Partridge's CATCH PHRASES Message-ID: In my brief spare time (when I'm on this continent and not at my job), I've been trying to update Eric Partridge's A DICTIONARY OF CATCH PHRASES (1977) and Mitford M. Mathews's DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS (1951). I've been running words & phrases through the Making of America and Periodicals Contents Index databases first, and then the other computer databases. Partridge had been working with words for half a century. He had many scholarly books to consult and many scholars helped him. There should be little chance for "whoppers." Within the book's first few pages is this: _alone I did it_ is both British and US. My only early record of this latish C19-20 c.p. occurs in Act I of Alfred Sutro's _The Fascinating Mr. Vanderbilt_, performed and published in 1906... The English Drama database and came up with a slightly earlier hit: William Shakespeare, CORIOLANUS (1623)--"Alone I did it, Boy." Keep in mind, this is just the first seven pages! On page nine, Partridge lists "and I don't mean maybe" and cites DANCE MAGIC (1927). I knew he was weak on Americanisms, but didn't the whole darned world know "Yessir, that's my baby; no sir, I don't mean maybe"?? This will probably be a continuing series of postings, but here are some results (mostly from the Periodicals Contents Index): SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS ARE (JEWS/BLACK/et al.)--Partridge gives no early citations but states "dates not later than 1940 and has probably been current since the early 1930s." There are: "Some of My Best Friends Are Yale Men" (VANITY FAIR, May 1921, pg. 61), "Some of My Best Friends Are Soldiers" (JOURNAL OF NEGRO EDUCATION, 1946, pg. 216), ""Some of My Best Friends Are Catalogers" (WILSON LIBRARY BULLETIN, Nov. 1948, pg. 243), and "Some of My Best Friends Are Professors" (JOURNAL OF HIGHER EDUCATION, 1959, pg. 114). AGE BEFORE BEAUTY--Partridge has "late C19-20, but rarely heard after (say) 1960." It's in the RANDOM HOUSE DICTIONARY OF POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS--also without an early first citation. "Age Before Beauty" is in SCRIBNER'S MONTHLY, vol. 5 (1872-1873), pg. 767. IF YOU'RE SO SMART, WHY AIN'T YOU RICH?--Not in Partridge, but it came up while searching "ain't." I couldn't find it in other books, either. The PCI has it from May 1971, AMERICAN ECONOMIC REVIEW, pg. 289. ALL DRESSED UP LIKE A FIRE ENGINE--Also not in Partridge, but he has "all dressed up and no place to go" and "all dressed up like Mrs. Astor's horse." The "fire engine" was in ART IN AMERICA, Winter 1956/57, pg. 54. Perhaps this phrase helped give birth to the phrase "bells and whistles." ALL SYSTEMS GO--From the 1960s NASA Space Program, but no one has citations. The PCI has "All Systems 'Go'" in LISTENER, Nov. 7, 1963, pg. 728. ALL SMOKE AND MIRRORS--Not in Partridge, who has the ancient "all smoke, gammon and spinach." From a magic act. PCI has QUADRANT, Dec. 1988, pg. 29, but Nexis should beat this. REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR--Certainly not earlier than December 7, 1941. PCI has it in UNITED STATES NEWS, Jan. 2, 1942, pg. 28. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MISC. MISHEARD SONG LYRICS--There was a series of books on this by Gavin Edwards: 'SCUSE ME...WHILE I KISS THIS GUY (1995) HE'S GOT THE WHOLE WORLD IN HIS PANTS (1996) WHEN A MAN LOVES A WALNUT (1997) DECK THE HALLS WITH BUDDY HOLLY (Christmas lyrics) (1998) DAGWOOD SANDWICH--"A Dagwood Sandwich. The Films in Review" is in THEATRE ARTS, Nov. 1946, pg. 669. Perhaps it's on film? MISSOURI SPELLINGS--I might have forgotten "Mizzoora" in OVERLAND MONTHLY, July 1888, pg. 45, and "Mizzoorah" in OVERLAND MONTHLY, January 1895, pg. 37. BRONX COCKTAIL--David Shulman has a citation from 1901; two citations offer varying theories about how it originated at the Waldorf Hotel in Manhattan. The interview I remember reading featuring Bronx historian Lloyd Ultan was in the DAILY NEWS, October 1998 (available on Dow Jones)--he also credits the Waldorf Hotel. I'll know more when I look at the Waldorf menus and biographies. From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Mon Aug 23 05:00:28 1999 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 01:00:28 -0400 Subject: "hot dog"--another correction Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Cohen To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Date: Saturday, August 21, 1999 10:08 PM Subject: "hot dog"--another correction > "It is believed Dorgan couldn't spell the word dachshund so he settled >on dog--the caption read 'Come get your hot dogs'." > > For the record, T.A. Dorgan was not only a sports cartoonist but a >sportswriter, and a very good one. Most likely, he was in fact able to >spell "dachshund," but in any case, his newspaper office surely had a >dictionary handy. Are we really supposed to believe that this very literate >man was too lazy to look up a word in the dictionary if he had doubts about >its spelling? > >-----Gerald Cohen > >>HOT DOG (continued, of course) >> >> If it weren't for a newspaper cartoonist, vendors at Pirate games >>might still be barking, "Get you red hot dachshund sausages!" Y'know, this is the bit that completely sours the theory for me. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that hot dogs were ever called 'dachshund sausages', especially in popular usage, and certainly not *before* they were called hot dogs (Barry, did you follow the dachshund's trail in your earlier posts?). I'll grant you isolated instants of some witty wordwise wags cracking wise, but not popular usage. Bruce From dumasb at UTK.EDU Mon Aug 23 11:41:10 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 07:41:10 -0400 Subject: "viagra moment" Message-ID: I heard it in Meigs County, Ohio; the speaker was a Detroit native (AA male, 40-ish). He was unsuccessfully trying to hoist a microphone into place before performing on his guitar. As the microphone kept drooping, he said, "I think I'm having a viagra moment." That's the first time I recall hearing the phrase. Bethany From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Aug 23 14:54:37 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:54:37 EDT Subject: Misunderstandings of lyrics Message-ID: Yes, and Elton John sings, "Someone shaved my wife tonight." From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Aug 23 15:03:27 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:03:27 EDT Subject: Updating Partridge's CATCH PHRASES Message-ID: In a message dated 8/23/99 12:41:04 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << IF YOU'RE SO SMART, WHY AIN'T YOU RICH?--Not in Partridge, but it came up while searching "ain't." I couldn't find it in other books, either. The PCI has it from May 1971, AMERICAN ECONOMIC REVIEW, pg. 289. >> Eudora Welty uses this in her short story, "Why I Live at the P.O." (c.1940). A character--a child--says it. From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET Mon Aug 23 18:37:51 1999 From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:37:51 -0700 Subject: SQUATTING Message-ID: Squatting is comparable to a legal concept called "adverse possession". The elements are "open, notorious, and adverse" possession of property for a period of years, 15 is probably about the number in most state laws. After that period the adverse possessor gains ownership. A comparable concept exists for adverse usage which results in gaining the permanbent right to continued use. Footpaths and driveways are often the subject of adverse usage. Bob G S C wrote: > Depending on the laws of a given state, squatting could be something as > 'simple' as walking/driving across someone's property, on a regular > basis, and establishing the legal right, after several years, to > continue to cross that property. In the 1950s, I heard references to > squatter's rights, when used with private property. Later, I was told > that the legal nicety dealt with 'notorious use'. Again, the basic > differences are in the laws of the various states. > > George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu > Shippensburg University From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Mon Aug 23 18:40:49 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:40:49 -0700 Subject: Misunderstandings of lyrics Message-ID: Also, take a look at: http://www.kissthisguy.com/ I learned that what is being sung in the background of Peter Gabriel's "Games without Frontiers" is "joues sans frontiers" and not "she's so popular" or " she's so funky now" or whatever. I asked my husband if he knew this and he said there used to be a game show either called "Games Without Frontiers" or which used the phrase "joues sans frontiers", so lots of English people were familiar with the French phrase. Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU Mon Aug 23 18:52:17 1999 From: debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:52:17 -0500 Subject: query: the Queen's English Message-ID: A few weeks ago Queen Elizabeth II was criticized for a usage error made during a speech. Can someone remember what that was all about or direct me to some of the news stories about it? Thanks. Dennis __________________ Dennis Baron, Head debaron at uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2390 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 S. Wright St. http:www/english.uiuc.edu/baron Urbana, IL 61801 From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Mon Aug 23 19:18:24 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:18:24 -0700 Subject: "What's it to you?" Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > WHAT'S IT TO YOU? > > The Making of America database works in some strange ways. It will NOT > recognize "What's it to you?" It WILL recognize "What s it to you?" > Couldn't they work out this kink?? I'll hazard a guess. Depending on how the text gets into the system, the mark for the apostrophe is not always the same character (codepoint). In some cirumstances, this manifests itself as as question mark. For example, people create Web pages using Microsoft products, which use proprietary characters. "What's" will look like "What?s" on a non-Microsoft machine. It might be that the database search engine has trouble with the various characters for apostrophe. Or, the apostrophe could be a special character that the program processing your input has not accounted for. Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From mcalvert at ENTERPE.COM Mon Aug 23 19:18:16 1999 From: mcalvert at ENTERPE.COM (Mike Calvert) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:18:16 +0000 Subject: Misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: One of my all-time favorites, as misunderstood by my sister in the late '60s: Creedence Clearwater Revival's "There's a bathroom on the right." Michael Calvert Press Enterprise Bloomsburg, PA From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Mon Aug 23 23:39:57 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:39:57 -0500 Subject: Misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: >From the 50's, until I got the sheet music, I wondered why Elvis's hound dog was "crocking" all the time. And do not forget Andy (walks with me) and Gladly the cross-eyed bear. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Calvert To: Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 2:18 PM Subject: Re: Misunderstood lyrics > One of my all-time favorites, as misunderstood by my sister in the late > '60s: Creedence Clearwater Revival's "There's a bathroom on the right." > > Michael Calvert > Press Enterprise > Bloomsburg, PA From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Mon Aug 23 23:57:27 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:57:27 -0500 Subject: SQUATTING Message-ID: In Florida, I knew several landowners who closed access to the beach through their property every New Year's Day to prevent such claims. One guy did it on December 1; I asked "Why?" He responded that he was not going to be there one New Years so he did it early and his lawyer told him that he had to keep on doing it early unless he wanted to make people mad twice in one short season or grant an easement. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Fitzke To: Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 1:37 PM Subject: Re: SQUATTING > Squatting is comparable to a legal concept called "adverse possession". The > elements are "open, notorious, and adverse" possession of property for a > period of years, 15 is probably about the number in most state laws. After > that period the adverse possessor gains ownership. A comparable concept > exists for adverse usage which results in gaining the permanbent right to > continued use. Footpaths and driveways are often the subject of adverse > usage. > > Bob > > G S C wrote: > > > Depending on the laws of a given state, squatting could be something as > > 'simple' as walking/driving across someone's property, on a regular > > basis, and establishing the legal right, after several years, to > > continue to cross that property. In the 1950s, I heard references to > > squatter's rights, when used with private property. Later, I was told > > that the legal nicety dealt with 'notorious use'. Again, the basic > > differences are in the laws of the various states. > > > > George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu > > Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 24 01:07:52 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:07:52 EDT Subject: Gay & Queer; Accessible Archives Message-ID: GAY & QUEER (continued) "Gay" perhaps began at Life cafeteria in Greenwich Village. (I had previously posted that the full term "the gay life" was often used in publications such as ONE.) I found this today in AROUND NEW YORK IN RHYME (1938) by Gerry Wayne, pg. 15: _Where there's Greenwich Village there's life_ _Where there's life there's queers_ There's a cafeteria in the Village Known by name as Life Visited by all sorts of people >From every walk of life. Its name before was Stewart's By which it was reclaimed And if you listen carefully You'll hear why t'was renamed. In this cafeteria poured People known as queer By this I do not mean peculiar But interchanged I fear. In other words the women And the men were quite ironic They had no use for the opposite sex Except a love platonic. The women loved each other The men they did the same And this shocking situation Like wildfire spread in fame. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES When I tried Accessible Archives today, Godey's Ladies Book and the Pennsylvania Gazette were listed "N/A." Only the Civil War newspapers could be accessed. Is this just the New York Public Library, or is something wrong? The result is a "taradiddle" crisis of epic proportions! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 24 01:09:52 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:09:52 EDT Subject: Fwd: Accessible Archives Breakup Message-ID: I didn't realize I had an answer on this when I did the last posting. --Barry Popik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: rpyle at nypl.org (rpyle) Subject: Accessible Archives Breakup Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:23:34 -0400 Size: 3031 URL: From rkm at SLIP.NET Tue Aug 24 01:13:31 1999 From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:13:31 -0700 Subject: Misunderstood lyrics In-Reply-To: <002301beedc0$d02f0a00$8c7a1bcc@pafracat> Message-ID: Ok, I've never had a chance to ask anybody about this, and I hope somebody out there remember it, because not only can't I remember the title of the '70s (?) song (it was a name, like Amanda or Aubry I think), but I can't remember the group who sang it. However, the chorus had a refrain that I always heard as either: Blinded by the light Revved up like a Deuxchevaux (Something, something) night or Blinded by the light Wrapped up like a goose Another runner in the night Much appreciated, Rima From davemarc at PANIX.COM Tue Aug 24 02:08:22 1999 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:08:22 -0400 Subject: Misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: > From: Kim & Rima McKinzey > > Ok, I've never had a chance to ask anybody about this, and I hope somebody > out there remember it, because not only can't I remember the title of the > '70s (?) song (it was a name, like Amanda or Aubry I think), but I can't > remember the group who sang it. > > However, the chorus had a refrain that I always heard as either: > > Blinded by the light > Revved up like a Deuxchevaux > (Something, something) night > > or > > Blinded by the light > Wrapped up like a goose > Another runner in the night You're probably thinking of Manfred Mann's Earth Band's cover of Bruce Springsteen's "Blinded by the Light," which includes the haunting but easily misheard lines: Blinded by the light revved up like a deuce Another runner in the night For more lyrics and other info, see http://www.kissthisguy.com/real.html d. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 24 02:01:13 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:01:13 EDT Subject: Misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: Bruce Springsteen, "Blinded By the Light." Re-recorded by Manfred Mann. I had always thought it was "Cut loose like a douche." --Barry Popik "Is this a library?"--Mattress delivery guy, 8-23-99. From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Aug 24 03:19:34 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:19:34 PDT Subject: Misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: >You're probably thinking of Manfred Mann's Earth Band's cover of >Bruce Springsteen's "Blinded by the Light," which includes the haunting but >easily misheard lines: > > Blinded by the light > revved up like a deuce > Another runner in the night > The page of lyrics (http://www.kissthisguy.com/real.html) gives two Manfred Mann versions of the line: "revved up" and "wrapped up". Are there two Manfred Mann recordings with different lyrics, or just two opinions on what Manfred sang? BTW, Springsteen wrote and sang "cut loose like a deuce", which I don't think, given the context, means much of anything. Any guesses on why Mann changed the lyric, or on what "wrapped/revved up like a deuce" might signify? DEJ "Little deuce coupe, you don't know what I've got..." _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From rkm at SLIP.NET Tue Aug 24 04:24:10 1999 From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:24:10 -0700 Subject: Misunderstood lyrics In-Reply-To: <19990824020937.B3C3B18CBF@mail2.panix.com> Message-ID: >> Blinded by the light >> Revved up like a Deuxchevaux >> (Something, something) night >> >> or >> >> Blinded by the light >> Wrapped up like a goose >> Another runner in the night > >Blinded by the light > revved up like a deuce > Another runner in the night > Thank you all for answering - and it's reassuring to know I wasn't the only one being confused. However, none of the versions make a whole lot of sense to me. Is the deuce referring to the deuce coupe? I'm sort of sorry to say goodby to the wrapped up goose... Rima From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 24 06:23:58 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 02:23:58 EDT Subject: Bloody Mary, B&B at "21" Club Message-ID: This continues a series of postings on drink etymologies that includes "cocktail," "martini," "Tom Collins," "rickey," "Manhattan," "Bronx cocktail," "Long Island iced tea," and "sex on the beach." These various lexical items are from "21," EVERY DAY WAS NEW YEAR'S EVE: MEMOIRS OF A SALOON KEEPER (1999) by H. Peter Kriendler with H. Paul Jeffers. Pg. 8: Serving as cashier under this new management was a man with dreams of becoming a newspaperman but with no inkling that he would go on to give New York the nickname "Naked City," produce movies, and have a Broadway theater named for him--Mark Hellinger. Pg. 9: The booze was sold in dollar-an-ounce flasks that were kept in coat pockets until it was necessary to fill a teacup. Such drinking spots were soon known as "cup joints." (Not in RHHDAS--ed.) Pg. 112: Arguably the most famous drink credited as having been invented at the club is the Bloody Mary. Almost as famous is the combination of brandy and Benedictine known as "B&B." Others with "21" birth certificates are the Ramos Gin Fizz and the Southside. Pg. 209: Because "21" was always regarded as a men's club, popular illustrators added to that perception by contributing work such as these to the club's walls. Dean Cornwell's drawing of the woman in the chair was captioned, "But I don't want to see your etchings! I want to go to '21'." (Date? 1936?--ed.) Pg. 228: They form the backdrop for Michael Douglas and Charlie Sheen in their luncheon scene in the movie _Wall Street_ as they sit at table 3, Charlie Sheen confronted with uncooked steak tartare as Douglas's character, Gordon Gekko, eats nothing. "Lunch," Gekko cynically declares, "is for wimps." Pg. 245: The symbol of the third era of '21', which would continue for the remainder of the century and toward the third millennium, was the "power lunch." Assessing the phenomenon in an (Pg. 246--ed.) article entitled "The Power of '21'" that appeared in the October 5, 1981, issue of _New York_ magazine, reporter Richard West judged '21' "the most powerful and famous restaurant in the country, a place of refuge and glory for the rich, the influential, the celebrated." Pg. 247: "...sipping $3 ginger ales and more costly Bloody Marys mixed by silver-haired Henry Zbikiewicz, bartender since 1939 (his only job)." The back flap has: "A '21' bartender created the Bloody Mary cocktail." See the ADS-L archives for "speakeasy." From jasanders at CSUPOMONA.EDU Tue Aug 24 06:47:01 1999 From: jasanders at CSUPOMONA.EDU (Judi Sanders) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 23:47:01 -0700 Subject: Misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: > >> Blinded by the light > >> Wrapped up like a goose > >> Another runner in the night > Thank you all for answering - and it's reassuring to know I wasn't the only > one being confused. However, none of the versions make a whole lot of > sense to me. Is the deuce referring to the deuce coupe? Of course the way Manfred Mann sings the song it sounds like douche. I have a vague memory of some DJ saying that the term "deuce" in this context meant "pimp." That could be with the "wrapped up" but probably not the "revved up" lyrics. This sense isn't in RHDAS. Judi Sanders -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Judi Sanders Professor, Communication Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona The Web: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders The College Slang Page: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Tue Aug 24 13:24:22 1999 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen Miller) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:24:22 -0400 Subject: query: the Queen's English In-Reply-To: <744DBC8BC3FBD01192C200A0C96BA7BD014ED512@ntx1.cso.uiuc.edu > Message-ID: Months ago the Queen gave a speech in which she said, ..."the young are sometimes wiser than us." The original critisism came from the London Bureau of The Washington Post in an article by T.R. Reid on May 21, 1999. William Safire followed up with his comments on May 30. Hope this is the one you were thinking of. And just FYI, I have a whole folder full of comments on this from both sides of the argument (and when I asked Robert Burchfield what his take on it was he said, "The Queen was right. She always is." After all it is HER languauge, isn't it? :) At 01:52 PM 8/23/99 -0500, you wrote: >A few weeks ago Queen Elizabeth II was criticized for a usage error made >during a speech. Can someone remember what that was all about or direct me >to some of the news stories about it? Thanks. > >Dennis > >__________________ >Dennis Baron, Head debaron at uiuc.edu >Department of English 217-333-2390 >University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 >608 S. Wright St. http:www/english.uiuc.edu/baron >Urbana, IL 61801 From davemarc at PANIX.COM Tue Aug 24 13:59:56 1999 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:59:56 -0400 Subject: "Blinded by the Light" (was Re: Misunderstood lyrics) Message-ID: Maybe only the Boss knows what it all means. Below, you can see how Cecil Adams tackled the question at http://www.straightdope.com/columns/960726.html d. *** Dear Cecil: The song "Blinded by the Light"--I have no idea who wrote it or sang it, but it's your job to know these things. I was wondering what the male vocalist says after the title phrase of the song. Is it "revved up like a deuce" or "ripped off like a douche" or some other phrase? --IMSMRTRTNU, via AOL Dear IM: URSMRTRNI? DLUR, TRKE. "Blinded by the Light" was written by a New Jersey musician named Bruce Springsteen. Maybe you've heard of him. It was on his Greetings From Asbury Park, N.J. album. Bruce's lyrics were no paragon of clarity. But at least you could understand the words: "And she was blinded by the light / Cut loose like a deuce another runner in the night / Blinded by the light / She got down but she never got tight," etc. Manfred Mann's Earth Band ("Quinn the Eskimo") did a cover version of the tune in 1976. It became a hit, no doubt because the band made the lyrics even more opaque than they already were. They changed the line in question to "wrapped up like a deuce." What's it mean? I'm barely on speaking terms with my own subconscious. Don't ask me to explain someone else's. From dumasb at UTK.EDU Tue Aug 24 16:48:52 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:48:52 -0400 Subject: Fieldwork Query Message-ID: Does anyone have any experience with tape-recording panhandler's narratives? I think that I have access to a potentially rich source of data in downtown Knoxville, and I am exploring options for fieldwork and small grants. Thanks, Bethany From pmeier at EAGLE.CC.UKANS.EDU Tue Aug 24 17:52:15 1999 From: pmeier at EAGLE.CC.UKANS.EDU (Paul Meier) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:52:15 -0500 Subject: IDEA Message-ID: I am not a linguist. My interest in dialects is as a dialect coach for theatre and film where there was a tremendous need for quickly accessible primary sources dialect speech. I have tried to remedy this by creating IDEA (International Dialects of English Archive) here at the University of Kansas. I invite your perusal of this fledgling project and your comments. How could this site be just as useful to linguists as to the performing arts? Is there a better standard text than the Rainbow Passage? Comments anyone? Offsets preferably. Click www.ukans.edu/~idea Paul Meier Professor of Theatre and Film -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 446 bytes Desc: Card for Paul Meier URL: From ansolds at MASSED.NET Tue Aug 24 22:12:21 1999 From: ansolds at MASSED.NET (Anson Olds) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:12:21 -0700 Subject: Misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: One of my all time favorites came from a four-year-old girl I overheard at a day care center: "Skip, skip, skip to ma Lou/ Skip to Malooma's garden." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ansolds at MASSED.NET Tue Aug 24 22:19:45 1999 From: ansolds at MASSED.NET (Anson Olds) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:19:45 -0700 Subject: misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: One of my all time favorites came from a four-year-old girl I overheard at a daycare center: "Skip,skip, skip to ma Lou/ Skip to malooma's garden." Emily -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Aug 24 19:45:53 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:45:53 EDT Subject: Gay & Queer Message-ID: This use of QUEER is exactly what one would expect for 1938, when QUEER was the usual colloquial term for 'homosexual' and GAY was generally unknown in that sense. I missed Barry's earlier posting concerning "the gay life," but I have found that most such uses of GAY before the earlier 1940s mean 'homosexual' only to latter-day viewers but did not mean 'homosexual' to the person using the term at the time (though in the late 1930s GAY probably did have a queer-subculture meaning as 'homosexual' for a coterie in New York and perhaps other big cities in the US). In a message dated 8/23/99 9:53:12 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << GAY & QUEER (continued) "Gay" perhaps began at Life cafeteria in Greenwich Village. (I had previously posted that the full term "the gay life" was often used in publications such as ONE.) I found this today in AROUND NEW YORK IN RHYME (1938) by Gerry Wayne, pg. 15: _Where there's Greenwich Village there's life_ _Where there's life there's queers_ There's a cafeteria in the Village Known by name as Life Visited by all sorts of people >From every walk of life. Its name before was Stewart's By which it was reclaimed And if you listen carefully You'll hear why t'was renamed. In this cafeteria poured People known as queer By this I do not mean peculiar But interchanged I fear. In other words the women And the men were quite ironic They had no use for the opposite sex Except a love platonic. The women loved each other The men they did the same And this shocking situation Like wildfire spread in fame. >> From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Aug 25 03:04:03 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:04:03 EDT Subject: Second prize: TWO WEEKS in Swaziland Message-ID: I'll be going to Switzerland for two weeks, but the classic joke doesn't apply. "You know what the casino prizes here are?" I recently said in Swaziland. "First prize is one free week in Swaziland. Second prize is TWO FREE WEEKS in Swaziland." SECOND PRIZE, TWO MONTHS IN LENINGRAD (1984) was a play by Trish Johnson. Did the joke originate in Russia? Was comedian Jackov Smirnov the first to tell it? A usenet check shows that the joke has made it around the world: 10-21-95 posting: Sounds like a competition. First prize one week in Fishguard, second prize two weeks. 4-13-96 posting: It's sort of like winning a second prize of two weeks in Armpit Ontario when first prize is one week in Armpit. 7-25-96 posting: First prize: one week in Central Florida. Second prize: two weeks in Central Florida. 2-18-97 posting: Don't forget the intense and often humorous rivalry between Edinburgh and Glasgow. Glasgow Celtic FC had a raffle. First prize was a week in Edinburgh, second prize was two weeks in Edinburgh. 3-23-97 posting: You win first prize, one free week in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. Kerry wins second prize, which is two free weeks in Moose Jaw... 6-25-97 posting: I saw an interesting contest a few years back. First prize was a week in Moscow. Second prize was two weeks in Moscow. 8-6-97 posting: What's the first place prize? A trip to Cuba for one week? What's the second place prize, two weeks in Cuba? 10-10-97 posting: YELTSIN: First prize, a week traveling around Russia with me! YASTRZHEMBSKI: Second prize, two weeks. 2-26-98 posting: That corny old joke used to be said of the city. First prize in a raffle--one week in Sheffield. Second prize--two weeks in Sheffield. 7-28-98 posting: First prize--one week in Bangalore. Second prize--two weeks in Bangalore! 10-27-98 posting: Reminds me of the old joke about the raffle--first prize was a week in Melbourne, second prize was two weeks in Melbourne! (...) The funny (?) thing is that I have twice heard this said of Christchurch. 10-30-98 posting: First prize will be an all expense paid week in beautiful downtown Liverpool. Second prize will be two weeks there. 3-16-99 posting: Remember the competition where the first prize was a week in Warrington and the second prize was two weeks in Warrington. 3-20-99 posting: First prize, one week in fashionable Norwalk, CT! Second prize, two weeks in Norwalk, CT! From jdespres at MAIL.M-W.COM Wed Aug 25 09:08:17 1999 From: jdespres at MAIL.M-W.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:08:17 +0000 Subject: Gay & Queer Message-ID: Donald Webster Cory offers the following account of the semantic genesis of GAY in his book The Homosexual in America (1951), pp. 107-08): How, when, and where this word originated, I am unable to say. I have been told by experts that it came from the French, and that in France as early as the sixteenth century the homosexual was called "gaie." Significantly enough, the feminine form was used to describe the male. The word made its way to England and America, and was used in print in some of the more pornographic literature soon after the First World War. Psychoanalyists have infomred me that their homosexual patients were callng themselves "gay" in the nineteen-twenties, and certainly by the nineteen-thirties it was the most common word in use among homosexuals themselves. It was not until after Pearl Harbor that it became a magic by-word in practically every corner of the United States where homosexual might gather, and in the decade following America's entry into the Second World War I find [the word to have been in use among not only] magazine writers and gossip columnists, but even radio announcers. I've checked the French dictionaries we have on hand (including Littre, Godefroi, and Tresor de la langue francaise) and (unsurprisingly) haven't found a trace of a "homosexual" sense of gai/e. Maybe one of us needs to root around in the gay/lesbian archives at the NYPL or in the papers of some early twentieth-century psychoanalysts for early evidence of the word? Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Aug 25 15:53:52 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:53:52 EDT Subject: Gay & Queer Message-ID: Thanks for pointing me towards Cory; maybe I dismissed him too quickly when I started researching QUEER vs. GAY a few years ago. All I know right now is that "Donald Webster Cory" is a pseudonym (for just whom I can't remember), and THE HOMOSEXUAL IN AMERICA, A SUBJECTIVE APPROACH, though apparently written c.1951, was not published until a decade later in any of the texts that I have seen (though I haven't seen them all). The authoritativeness of the book, then, would seen to depend primarily on the reliability of Cory's personal observations, which are more than a little hard to judge, given that he is pseudonymous. Suppose (as seems likely) that he was born between 1920 and 1930; this would give him first-hand knowledge of the adult language around him beginning no earlier than, say, 1937 and perhaps as late as 1945 or so. My research tells me that this was exactly the period when the term GAY was gaining cult prominence in homosexual circles in big cities and beginning to move out into the rest of the USA. At any rate, Cory is no linguist, and his unnamed "experts" are not in print anywhere that I have found. I can't say anything about the French, but I don't put much stock in the putative influence of French slang on American homosexuals. Particularly inaccurate--at least I have been able to find NO evidence in the printed record anywhere that would support such a statement--is Cory's assertion that "certainly by the nineteen-thirties it was the most common word in use among homosexuals themselves." Again, it is unlikely that "Cory" was an adult in the 1930s, at least not in queer circles. The evidence is overwhelming that, in the 1930s, QUEER was the most common word of self-reference (followed by FAIRY). It wasn't really replaced by GAY until the 1960s. The statement that "in the decade following America's entry into the Second World War I find [the word to have been in use among not only] magazine writers and gossip columnists, but even radio announcers" also strikes me as a little misleading in its emphasis. Yes, GAY 'homosexual' was used increasingly throughout the 1950s, particularly in big cities, and became more and more known to the general public during that decade. But it wasn't until the 1960s that mainstream culture began to notice the new meaning so much that they began to complain very loudly that GAY was being usurped. The subculture gay literature of the 1920s and 1930s is not easy to come by, but that which I have been able to examine is remarkably missing GAY in the sense of 'homosexual'; the word does occur occasionally in its primary slang sense of 'fun' or 'frivolous' or 'cheeky', and it is tempting to anachronistically project a homosexual reading back onto the earlier texts, but I don't think it is justified. Further research certainly might turn up additional evidence, particularly in the rare and unpublished texts that you mention. Much of what I have concluded comes about because I HAVE looked at some of the novels, and I have also relied on George Chauncey's remarkable archive work in the 1930s&1940s New York City police interrogation records (see his book, IN GAY NEW YORK). Meanwhile, I have tried to document all the available sources in my DICTIONARIES article in 1998, and I will be happy to send you a copy of the article if you would like to see it. In a message dated 8/25/99 9:06:47 AM, jdespres at MAIL.M-W.COM writes: << Donald Webster Cory offers the following account of the semantic genesis of GAY in his book The Homosexual in America (1951), pp. 107-08): How, when, and where this word originated, I am unable to say. I have been told by experts that it came from the French, and that in France as early as the sixteenth century the homosexual was called "gaie." Significantly enough, the feminine form was used to describe the male. The word made its way to England and America, and was used in print in some of the more pornographic literature soon after the First World War. Psychoanalysts have informed me that their homosexual patients were calling themselves "gay" in the nineteen-twenties, and certainly by the nineteen-thirties it was the most common word in use among homosexuals themselves. It was not until after Pearl Harbor that it became a magic by-word in practically every corner of the United States where homosexual might gather, and in the decade following America's entry into the Second World War I find [the word to have been in use among not only] magazine writers and gossip columnists, but even radio announcers. I've checked the French dictionaries we have on hand (including Littre, Godefroi, and Tresor de la langue francaise) and (unsurprisingly) haven't found a trace of a "homosexual" sense of gai/e. Maybe one of us needs to root around in the gay/lesbian archives at the NYPL or in the papers of some early twentieth-century psychoanalysts for early evidence of the word? Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster >> From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU Wed Aug 25 16:55:25 1999 From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:55:25 -0500 Subject: Gay & Queer Message-ID: One good (I think) source on these words is Wayne Dynes' _Homolexis_ (1985, Saber Monograph #4, NY: Scholarship Committee of the Gay Academic Union). I only have a few xeroxed pages of it, but some of the things it says about gay: - considerable argot uses among homosexuals 1920s-60s. - no evidence of it (to mean 'homosexual', that is) in Romance languages until after American/English influence in 1970s. - "Despite assertations to the contrary, thus far not one unambiguous attestation of the word to refer to homosexual men has surfaced from the nineteenth century. Any new evidence purporting to cite _gay_ in the present sense must be carefully scrutinized. It is unlikely that it will bear serious examination." The stuff on queer in this source is rather brief, but notes that "queer" was common in England in the 1920s (I think--the prose is a bit ambiguous re: date), producing Cockney slang phrases with "beer" in them. Lynne, who, unlike Barry, thinks Swaziland is a great vacation spot -- M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English, Baylor University PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA Phone: 254-710-6983 Fax: 254-710-3894 http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Aug 25 20:17:53 1999 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse T Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:17:53 -0400 Subject: Gay & Queer In-Reply-To: <830e1cf7.24f56b90@aol.com> from "RonButters@AOL.COM" at Aug 25, 99 11:53:52 am Message-ID: > > Thanks for pointing me towards Cory; maybe I dismissed him too quickly when I > started researching QUEER vs. GAY a few years ago. All I know right now is > that "Donald Webster Cory" is a pseudonym (for just whom I can't remember), It was a pseudonym for Edward Sagarin, who published _The Anatomy of Dirty Words_ under his real name in 1962 Jesse Sheidlower From pds at VISI.COM Thu Aug 26 00:45:32 1999 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:45:32 -0500 Subject: Second prize: TWO WEEKS in Swaziland In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:04 PM 8/24/1999 EDT, Barry wrote: > SECOND PRIZE, TWO MONTHS IN LENINGRAD (1984) was a play by Trish >Johnson. Did the joke originate in Russia? Was comedian Jackov Smirnov the >first to tell it? If Barry is asking specifically about Leningrad, I don't know. If he is asking about the generic one-week/two-weeks joke, it goes (at least) as far back as W C Fields who used it against Philadelphia. (Often, I suspect; although my only source is a tape of an old Fred Allen radio show. no date.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET Thu Aug 26 19:28:47 1999 From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:28:47 -0700 Subject: Second prize: TWO WEEKS in Swaziland Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: Was comedian Jackov Smirnov the first to tell it? > Don't know about that, Barry, but he told one that I've always considered a > classic: "Know what I like best about America? Warning shots." > From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Thu Aug 26 17:12:13 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:12:13 -0400 Subject: block that metaphor... Message-ID: I recommend the CdC (Cirque de Cliche') at http://www.jps.net/petista/index.html As the Cirque de Cliche (hereafter referenced as "CdC") mission statement reads: To offer the public best of breed cliches whose wide acceptance will lift the American figure of speech industry out of its current doldrums and drive a renewed period of vigorous growth. And that, really, says it all. -- Mark From sllauns at CWIS.ISU.EDU Thu Aug 26 18:45:35 1999 From: sllauns at CWIS.ISU.EDU (Sonja L Launspach) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:45:35 -0600 Subject: idaho dialect Message-ID: I'm teaching an undergraduate class in language studies and one of the units is on Language variation. I would like to have my students read something about the local dialect--southeastern Idaho, but so far I haven't been able to find anything. Does anyone know of any work done on this part of the country? I've found some articles on the Pacific Northwest and Salt Lake City. I'd appreciate any suggestion y'all might have. Thanks Sonja Launspach _______________________________________________________________________ Sonja Launspach Assistant Professor Linguistics Dept.of English & Philosophy Idaho State University Pocatello, ID 83209 208-236-2478 fax:208-236-4472 email: sllauns at isu.edu From jeclapp at WANS.NET Thu Aug 26 20:30:13 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:30:13 -0400 Subject: block that metaphor... Message-ID: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote: > > I recommend the CdC (Cirque de Cliche') at http://www.jps.net/petista/index.html That must be where the writers for a horrible "Amazing Videos" show I watched last night while eating a TV dinner get their material. One segment ended with the narrator intoning: "[So-and-so] cheated death that day--and lived to tell the tale!!" Duh! On the other hand, I think the Cirque de Cliche site (they don't use the acute accent) should be renamed Cirque de Oxymoron. The first item on their navigation bar is headed "New Cliches . . ." Huh? James E. Clapp From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 26 22:28:13 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:28:13 EDT Subject: Naked City; Only in New York; Biscuit; Mozart Effect Message-ID: The Performing Arts Library and the regular library closed unexpectedly early today, so I didn't check the Mark Hellinger clippings for "naked city" or the many books on W. C. Fields to record his catch phrases. (Maybe Saturday.) We pray for rain, so it rains, and it pours, and the subways are flooded, and the tunnels are flooded, and people can't get home. I knew I should have never left that beach in Western Turkey! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- NAKED CITY There was a tv show called NAKED CITY and a movie called NAKED CITY. According to the Worldcat entry, the 1947 movie was a Mark Hellinger production. Of the script by Albert Maltz: "Original title 'Homicide' crossed out and 'Naked City' pencilled in." The photographer Weegee did a book (now reprinted and in stores all over) titled NAKED CITY in 1945. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ONLY IN NEW YORK From the NEW YORK OBSERVER, 30 August 1999, pg. 6, col. 4: Close readers of Cindy Adams' column in the _New York Post_ may have noticed that her kicker--"Only in New York, kids, only in New York"--now has a little "TM" right next to it. "She trademarked it," said a _Post_ spokesman. Adams (the photo caption calls her a "gossipeuse") can trademark the thing said twice and with "kids" added, but "Only in New York" has been around for decades, much before Cindy Adams started her column. Only in America. Land of opportunity, yeah. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FASHION "BISCUITS" From the NEW YORK OBSERVER, 30 August 1999, pg. 28, col. 4: 2. In fashionspeak, what are "biscuits?" c. According to _Out_ magazine, an insulting reference to the overhang of a manly foot crammed into a delicate mule. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MOZART EFFECT Now that there's no "Mozart Effect" (increasing intelligence levels by playing classical music to young children), can we retire the buzzword? From dumasb at UTK.EDU Thu Aug 26 23:27:28 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:27:28 -0400 Subject: Team teaching Message-ID: OUr situation was resolved, and we now have a Lx 200 instructor. The crisis was helpful; in the past few dyas, poential instructors have come out of the woodwork. We may be able to offer multiple sections next year. Thanks for your help. Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Aug 27 00:27:19 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:27:19 EDT Subject: Sports Illustrated, 1967 Message-ID: From a brief SPORTS ILLUSTRATED check of part of this year: KISS (KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID)--7 August 1967, pg. 42, col. 2. The RHHDAS has 1971 (although the citation discusses the military of 1963). Nothing less than 100% simplicity will do in a pro football huddle. A quarterback has to practice Allie Sherman's KISS system: "Keep It Simple, Stupid!" WELCOME TO THE N.F.L.--24 July 1967, pg. 24, col. 1. Said to the victim after a bruising hit. Probably taken from "Welcome to the Army!" It was soon followed by "Welcome to New York!" I (Fran Tarkenton--ed.) was lying there still wondering what country I was in when Van Brocklin came over and said in that inimitable style of his: "Welcome to the National Football League, kid!" WELCOME TO THE CLUB--31 July 1967, pg. 38, col. 2. The phrase goes back a few decades earlier, but this is for comparison with the above. Also written by Fran Tarkenton. "Well, kid," he said, "you've arrived! You're now an NFL quarterback. They've booed you and you've been replaced. Welcome to the club!" BRICK WALL WITH ARMS--7 August 1967, pg. 13, col. 1. Said of any large NFL player. The phrase should be much older than this. Bill Pickens, 6'10", 270-pound defensive line candidate with the Kansas City Chiefs after his first contact with their All-League offensive tackle, Jim Tyrer: "It's like running into a brick wall that has arms." STICK IT IN YOUR EAR!--7 August 1967, pg. 4, col. 1. The photo shows Sandy Koufax (the fax machine was not named after him) sticking a ball into staff photographer Herbie Scharfman's ear. The East Side, New York-born Scharfman also says "Stop walking so fast, already?" and "What are you, _kidding_ me?" Or to pitchers: "Look, Sandy, I'm telling ya to stick it in his ear, see?" THIS COULD BE YOU--31 July 1967, pg. 13, col. 2. This catch phrase is not in Partridge. It probably started "this could be you...in a new automobile." The ad is for flying lessons with Piper Aircraft. (Ads like it possibly appeared in earlier issues.) This could be you..about to land on a secluded Bahama out-island with _you_ as pilot in command! Impossible? Not at all. Start flying lessons now... WHEN (E. F. HUTTON) TALKS, PEOPLE LISTEN--31 July 1967, pg. 60. An advertisement for the Magazine Publishers Association possibly pre-dates the E. F. Hutton ad. _When private citizen O'Mara speaks, the Generals listen_ General Foods, General Motors, General Mills _better_ pay attention to the likes of Mrs. O'Mara. Because she--and you--buy only the brands you like... A BUNCH OF GOODWILL AMBASSADORS WHO WOULD RATHER QUIT THAN FIGHT--31 July 1967, pg. 63, col. 3. This letter refers to the July 3rd story "The Best Losers in the World." People are rarely chided with being "goodwill ambassadors" anymore. It seems to me that the article referring to our U. S. Davis Cup team as "a bunch of goodwill ambassadors who would rather quit than fight" serves no constructive purpose whatsoever. JUST WON'T QUIT--10 July 1967, pg. 1. Dial soap ad. Just won't quit! THEY KNOW HOW TO WIN--31 July 1967, pg. 62, col. 1. This cliche is said of winners, especially a winning team not composed of great individual talents. ...Paul Casanova proclaimed, "We will win the pennant. Look at these guys, they know how to win." SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER AND I'LL SHOW YOU A _LOSER_--17 July 1967, pg. 82, col. 2. Probably a phrase by people from Missouri who don't know how to win. That's what it's all about: winning. Show me a good loser, and I'll (Fran Tarkenton--ed.) show you a _loser_. I'd rather be a good winner any day. SURF TALK--24 July 1967, pg. 51, col. 1. A nice article titled "Summer Surfers" about Hawaii. It includes "trip-taker," "hot dog," and more. "You've sort of got three different kinds of kids here. There are the bleachies, the California dreamers. They throw around a lot of surf talk--shoot the Pipe, and all that junk--but they wouldn't go near a big wave. Their chicks have probably got a hairbrush in their bikinis." "Yuk," said one of the Lindas. "Then there are the trip-takers," said Jabo. "You know, the pot smokers and LSD blasters--hippies. (...) Anybody hanging around Waikiki right now is _not_ a good surfer. They're just hot dogs on two-foot waves, putting some chick on. Anyhow, the third basic group is us--the good guys." A GLOSSARY OF SPANISH TERMS USED IN TOREO, 24 July 1967, pg. 36, includes: Alternativa, aviso, ayudado por alto, banderillero, becerro, brega, bronco, cargar la suerta, chicuelina, cite de frente, cornada, cuadrilla, de firma, derechazo, descabello, en redondo, faena, lance, lidia, manso, media, muleta, natural, novillo, novillada, pase, pase de pecho, pinchazo, quite, remate, templar, toreo, toro, veronica, vuelta. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- P.S. I like Swaziland! It just sounds funny! From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 27 00:31:50 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:31:50 -0400 Subject: Gay & Queer In-Reply-To: <830e1cf7.24f56b90@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > Thanks for pointing me towards Cory; maybe I dismissed him too quickly when I > started researching QUEER vs. GAY a few years ago. All I know right now is > that "Donald Webster Cory" is a pseudonym (for just whom I can't remember), > and THE HOMOSEXUAL IN AMERICA, A SUBJECTIVE APPROACH, though apparently > written c.1951, was not published until a decade later in any of the texts > that I have seen (though I haven't seen them all). The authoritativeness of The first edition of this book was indeed published in 1951. Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Fri Aug 27 18:37:01 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:37:01 -0400 Subject: cheap cosmos Message-ID: Seen on the wall menu of a pizzeria in Williamsport, Penna., in the "sandwich" section: ALL COSMOS EXTRA 15 On inquiring, I was informed that [approx. transcr.] "a cosmo... you put it in the oven to heat it up". So, apparently, any sandwich can be made into a cosmo by heating it up in the oven for 15 cents additional. -- Mark A. Mandel From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Fri Aug 27 18:38:57 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:38:57 -0700 Subject: Ancient martial arts Message-ID: >From the Merriam-Webster Word of the Day site today (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/mwwod.pl): Ninjas originated in the mountains of Japan about 800 years ago as practitioners of ninjutsu, a martial art sometimes called "the art of stealth" or "the art of invisibility." They often served as military spies and were trained in disguise, concealment, geography, meteorology, medicine, and other martial arts. I am particularly interested in geography as a martial art. I wonder how that would go - brisk hiking up steep slopes, crushing the rocks beneath one's feet? What would the medical training instructor be like, John Belushi as "Samurai Surgeon"? ;-} Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From AAllan at AOL.COM Fri Aug 27 19:03:15 1999 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:03:15 EDT Subject: Define Detroit Message-ID: FWiW, from the Detroit Free Press: What's going on: Define Detroit August 27, 1999 WHAT DO YOU SAY? Define Detroit by sending words Hey, if it's good enough for the Brits, it's good enough for the Motor City. The editors of the venerable Oxford English Dictionary are looking for new words to include in the 2010 revision of the OED. (Send 'em to 1999 Appeal, OED, Oxford University Press, Great Clarendon St., Oxford, England OX2 6DP.) But that got us thinking: Why not a Detroit English Dictionary? Why not explore the roots of the colorful language that separates us from the rest of the world? That's where you come in. Send your words and phrases -- and definitions and anything else you know about them -- to What's Going On, Detroit Free Press, 600 W. Fort St., Detroit, MI 48226. Or fax it to 313-222-5397. Prefer e-mail? Send it to whatsgoingon at freepress.com. - Allan Metcalf From magura at CZ.TOP.PL Sat Aug 28 18:07:02 1999 From: magura at CZ.TOP.PL (Michal Lisecki) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:07:02 +0200 Subject: r-lessness in American Dialects In-Reply-To: <199908240214.WAA17484@linguistlist.org> Message-ID: Dear ADS subscribers, On the Linguist List I've seen a query which I am sure you, as "sound-sensitive" Americans, can help better than I. I have emailed Yukiko and she was delighted to hear about ADS. I have already advised her to take a look at some pronounciation dictionaries containing the information on the distribution of various pronounciation patterns even along the time (e.g. 'A Pronouncing Dictionary of American English' by John S. Kenyon and Thomas A. Knott). Should you know of any other good resources containing the information on the American pronounciation pleas let me also know about it. Otherwise please forward any responses to the query at Yukiko's email address: Thanks and take care! Yours lurkerly...but nevertheless faithful(ly) ;-) >Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:00:40 +0900 >From: "Yukiko Yoshino" >Subject: r-lessness in American Dialects > >Dear Sir/Madam; > >My name is Yukiko Yoshino. I'm currently a senior undergraduate at >Miyazaki Municipal University in Japan. > >I am studying Dialects of American English in order to write >graduation thesis which title is "Regional distribution of r-lessness >in American English" > >However, I have difficulty in finding the articles about this area, >because I live in Japan. I want to investigate the regional >distribution of a phonetic feature - a postvocalic /r/ in terms of >historical development. > >Would you tell me some articles as to these fields ? > >Thank you in advance for your attention to this matter. > >Sincerely Yours, > >Yukiko Yoshino tafn mike _______________________________________________________________ Michal Lisecki, Ph.D candidate Institute of Slavonic Studies, University of Silesia (Poland) http://www.cz.top.pl/~magura finger 4 my PGP From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Aug 29 23:07:46 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 19:07:46 EDT Subject: Charles Harrington Elster (continued) Message-ID: Charles Harrington Elster substituted for William Safire in the "On Language" column in today's New York Times. He calls himself a "word detective." Many months ago, I posted here (Gareth Branwyn had just been in contact with Elster) an offer that Elster can join the American Dialect Society and the American Name Society for free. I'd pay his dues. No questions asked. Free. There was no response. I sent a certified letter to the New York Times. There was still no response. The New York Times must have no standards at all. From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Mon Aug 30 01:14:19 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:14:19 -0500 Subject: Charles Harrington Elster (continued) Message-ID: If the New York Times has standards, they are lower than those of the National Enquirer, which refused to print the name of the woman who filed rape charges against the Kennedy cousin; the NYT and major TV networks were not troubled by any such scruples. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 29, 1999 6:07 PM Subject: Charles Harrington Elster (continued) > Charles Harrington Elster substituted for William Safire in the "On > Language" column in today's New York Times. He calls himself a "word > detective." > Many months ago, I posted here (Gareth Branwyn had just been in contact > with Elster) an offer that Elster can join the American Dialect Society and > the American Name Society for free. I'd pay his dues. No questions asked. > Free. > There was no response. > I sent a certified letter to the New York Times. > There was still no response. > The New York Times must have no standards at all. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 30 01:05:20 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:05:20 EDT Subject: The Old Waldorf-Astoria Bar Book (long!) Message-ID: The Waldorf-Astoria Hotel didn't have this book, but the NYPL Annex did. The book is excellent for drink etymologies. (FWIW: A letter-to-the-editor appears in the City Section of today's Sunday New York Times on the drinkability of the lime "rickey.") _THE OLD WALDORF-ASTORIA BAR BOOK_ Giving the Correct Recipes for FIVE HUNDRED COCKTAILS AND MIXED DRINKS... The Whole Flavored with Dashes of History Mixed in a Shaker of Anecdote and Served with a Chaser of Iluminative Information. By Albert Stevens Crockett (Historian of the Old Waldorf-Astoria) Pg. 35 ADONIS...Named in honor of a theatrical offering which first made Henry E. Dixey and Fanny Ward famous. Pg. 38 BIRD...So named by the person on whom it was first tried. "That's a bird!" he exclaimed, smacking his lips. Pg. 39 JACK...Supposed to have been called that from knockout effects consequent upon indulgence. Pg. 40 BRIGHTON...So called from the race course near Brighton Beach, where many Bar habitues spent their afternoons when that track topped the racing calendar. Pg. 41 BRONX...Many claimants to the honor of inventing the Bronx have arisen. It was an Old Waldorf tradition that the inventor was Johnnie Solon (or Solan), popular as one of the best mixers behind its bar counter for most of the latter's history. This is Solon's own story of the Creation--of the Bronx: "We had a cocktail in those days called the Duplex, which had a pretty fair demand. One day, I was making one for a customer when in came Traverson, head waiter of the Empire Room--the main dining room in the original Waldorf. A Duplex was composed of equal parts of French and Italian Vermouth, shaken up with squeezed orange peel, or two dashes of Orange Bitters. Traverson said, 'Why don't you get up a new cocktail? I have a customer who says you can't do it.' "'Can't I?' I replied. "Well, I finished the Duplex I was making, and a thought came to me. I poured into a mizing glass the equivalent of two jiggers of Gordon Gin. Then I filled the jigger with orange juice, so that it made one-third or orange juice and two-thirds of Gin. Then into the mixture I put a dash each of Italian and French Vermouth, shaking the thing up. I didn't taste it myself, but I poured it into a cocktail glass and handed it to Traverson and said: 'You are a pretty good judge. (He was.) See what you think of that.' Traverson tasted it. Then he swallowed it whole. "'By God!' he said, 'you've really got something new! That will make a big hit. Make me another and I will take it back to that customer in the dining room. Bet you'll sell a lot of them. Have you got plenty of oranges? If you haven't, you better stock up, because I'm going to sell a lot of those cocktails during lunch.' "The demand for Bronx cocktails started that day. Pretty soon we were using a whole case of oranges a day. And then several cases. "The name? No, it wasn't really named directly after the borough or the river so-called. I had been at the Bronx Zoo a day or two before, and I saw, of course, a lot of beasts I had never known. Customers used to tell me of the strange animals they saw after a lot of mixed drinks. So when Traverson said to me, as he started to take the drink in to the customer, 'What'll I tell him is the name of this drink?' I thought of those animals, and said: 'Oh, you can tell him it is a "Bronx."'" Pg. 43 CHANLER..."Sheriff Bob" Chanler, artist, married Lina Cavalieri, of the Metropolitan and made the front pages early in the century. Pg. 43 CHANTICLEER...Celebrated the local opening of Edmund Rostand's _Chanticler_. Pg. 45 CLOVER CLUB...A Philadelphia importation, originated in the bar of the old Bellevue-Stratford, where the Clover Club, composed of literary, legal, financial and business lights of the Quaker City, often dined and wined, and wined again. Pg. 47 DEFENDER...The name of an American yacht which took care of one of Sir Thomas Lipton's early but seemingly endless "Shamrocks." Pg. 48 DORLANDO...After the Italian marathon runner in the Olympic games in London, 1908. Pg. 48 DOWN...What else, in faith, than a county in Ireland--ancient home of many American bartenders? Pg. 50 FLOATER...There is equal authority for a contention that this was called after a racehorse owned by the late James R. Keene, or after an individual numerically important, and who was transported into various precincts at different hours of Election Day and thereby enabled to vote early and often, as the saying was. Pg. 52 HALSEY...Named in compliment to a well known stock-broker and patron of the Bar. Pg. 52 HAMLIN...Took its name from Harry Hamlin of Buffalo, an enthusiastic automobilist in the days when there were far more enthusiasts than automobiles. Pp. 53-54 HOFFMAN HOUSE...Conceived at the old Hotel in Madison Square whose bar was famous before the Old Waldorf was built, for the length of its brass rail, the Bougereau painting of nudities on the wall, and the notability of many of its patrons. Served at Old Waldorf Bar, but was not in the original Bar Book. Pg. 55 JAPALAC...So styled in compliment to a salesman who sold a product of that name; not because it would enamel a digestive apparatus. Pg. 57 LOFTUS...Called in compliment to Cissie Loftus, famous English comedienne and mimic, long a popular top-liner. Pg. 57 LONE TREE...After the 1899 equaivalent of a "nineteenth hole"--a tree which stood alone in a secluded part of a golf course near Philadelphia. Players on that course frequented the Old Waldorf Bar. Pp. 57-58 MACLEAN...In honor of John R. MacLean, long proprietor of the Cincinnati _Enquirer_ and the Washington _Post_. Pg. 58 MANHATTAN...Origin somewhat obscure. Probably first called after a well known club of that name, and not after an island famed for many years as the abode and domain of a certain "Tiger." Pg. 60 METROPOLE...Attributed to a once well known and somewhat lively hotel, whose bar was long a center of life after dark in the Times Square district. Pg. 60 METROPOLITAN...After a New York club, long popularly called "The Millionaires." Pg. 61 MONAHAN SPECIAL...Called after Mike Monahan, one of the Waldorf bar-keepers, its inventor. Pg. 62 NETHERLAND...Possibly invented at the Hotel Netherland, a contemporary of the Old Waldorf. Pg. 62 NEWMAN...Patronymic of a man who for a time ran the old Haymarket, a widely famed Tenderloin resort. Pp. 62-63 NORMANDIE...The name of a hotel in Broadway's early spotlight district, patronized by sportsmen and sports. Pg. 63 NUTTING...Its namesake was Col. Andrew J. Nutting, of Brooklyn, an ardent patron of the Bar for many years. Pp. 63-64 OLD-FASHIONED WHISKEY...This was brought to the Old Waldorf in the days of its "sit-down" Bar, and was introduced by, or in honor of, Col. James E. Pepper, of Kentucky, proprietor of a celebrated whiskey of the period. It was said to have been the invention of a bartender at the famous Pendennis Club in Louisville, of which Col. Pepper was a member. Pp. 71-72 SOUL KISS...After a musical comedy of that name, which, because of its appellation, stirred up a good many ideas among the young--and middle-aged--about the latter part of the first decade of the century. Pp. 73-74 THOMPSON...After Denman Thompson, the actor, who made "The Old Homestead" famous, and upon whom that play had equally beneficent results. Pp. 77-78 WOXUM...Some think it is aboriginally American, and ascribe it to a "bunch of Indians," so-called, who occasionally made whoopee--or, as it was said at that time, "raised hell"--in the Old Waldorf Bar when they could get away with it. Pg. 78 YALE...An institution somewhere beyond Old Greenwich, where many young men go for the purpose of commuting to New York for week-ends. The Old Bar used to be one of their "ports of call" and there they used to find many who in years past had gone to the same place and done the same things. Pg. 78 1915...Named in honor of a New Year. Some believe this was the last cocktail invented in the Old Waldorf Bar. Pg. 86 HIGH-BALLS...Just as is the case with "cocktail," the origin and application of "high-ball" as a name for a stimulant is open to discussion. Some have asserted that the name was taken from the National Game, possibly because of the effect upon the "batting average" of one who "hits" enough in rapid succession. However the lexicographer digs further. In slang, a drink is often described as a "shot"; in Pall-Mall English it's a "spot." High-ball, more or less pure American for what a Britisher calls a Whiskey-and-Soda, say the learned, is combined form "high," meaning tall, and descriptive of the container, and "ball," which used to be the equivalent of "shot," both metallically and absorbatively. Therefore the classical definition, "a 'long' drink consisting of whiskey, to which is added soda-water, mineral water or some other effervescent, served in a tall glass with broken ice." Pg. 94 PEGGY O'NEILL...After an opera or play of that name, it is believed. The original Peggy O'Neill was the daughter of a Washington tavern-keeper, and noted for her beauty and wit. Pg. 97 RICKEYS...The Rickey owes its name to Colonel "Joe" Rickey, though an interested public has long persisted in referring to him as "Colonel Jim" Rickey. Colonel Rickey had been a lobbyist in Washington, and as such used to buy drinks for members of COngress in the glamorous days before they had come to depend upon the discreet activities of gentlemen in green hats to keep them wet while they voted dry. The drink was invented and named for him at Shoemaker's, famous in Washington as a Congressional hangout. Pg. 100 BRUNSWICK...Invented at the Old Hotel Brunswick, once a resort for Fashion, and situated on the north side of Madison Square. Pp. 104-105 BRADLEY MARTIN...After the husband of a famous society leader who gave a much publicized ball in the room adjoining the Old Waldorf Bar, while the latter was still building. Pg. 107 FIN DE SIECLE...Name dates it back to 1899 or 1900, when the term was much used, but much mispronounced. Pp. 108-109 JOHN COLLINS...One of two members of the Collins family famous in bars in the old days. The difference between the two was that Tom Collins was made with Old Tom Gin--or supposedly--while a John Collins was made with Holland Gin. Pg. 116 WIDOW'S KISS...Just why the author of this drink should ascribe so many tastes to the osculation of some gentleman's relics, or who was the widow whose kiss was thus commemorated, it has been impossible to establish. One could only suggest that someone with an inquiring mind might catch a widow and experiment with direct labial contact. Pg. 126 CUBAN CONCOCTIONS...From Will P. Taylor, manager of the Hotel National, in Havana, who stuck at his post all through the recent local disturbances, which included a bombardment of his hotel, I have obtained the choicest Cuban Rum recipes. Out of compliment to Mr. Taylor, who was last resident manager of the Old Waldorf-Astoria, is placed at the head of this list the distinctive cocktail which at his hotel is also called a Daiquiri, or a Bacardi. Pg. 128 BOWMAN BACARDI...Named after the late John McEntee Bowman, American hotel man, who was the first to introduce modern American hotel-keeping into Havana and who, making the acquaintance of Bacardi on its native heath, probably did more to popularize it among Americans than any other one person. From mcenedella at MBA1998.HBS.EDU Mon Aug 30 01:46:56 1999 From: mcenedella at MBA1998.HBS.EDU (Marc Cenedella) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:46:56 -0400 Subject: The Old Waldorf-Astoria Bar Book (long!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: unsubscribe -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: Sunday, August 29, 1999 9:05 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: The Old Waldorf-Astoria Bar Book (long!) The Waldorf-Astoria Hotel didn't have this book, but the NYPL Annex did. The book is excellent for drink etymologies. (FWIW: A letter-to-the-editor appears in the City Section of today's Sunday New York Times on the drinkability of the lime "rickey.") _THE OLD WALDORF-ASTORIA BAR BOOK_ Giving the Correct Recipes for FIVE HUNDRED COCKTAILS AND MIXED DRINKS... The Whole Flavored with Dashes of History Mixed in a Shaker of Anecdote and Served with a Chaser of Iluminative Information. By Albert Stevens Crockett (Historian of the Old Waldorf-Astoria) Pg. 35 ADONIS...Named in honor of a theatrical offering which first made Henry E. Dixey and Fanny Ward famous. Pg. 38 BIRD...So named by the person on whom it was first tried. "That's a bird!" he exclaimed, smacking his lips. Pg. 39 JACK...Supposed to have been called that from knockout effects consequent upon indulgence. Pg. 40 BRIGHTON...So called from the race course near Brighton Beach, where many Bar habitues spent their afternoons when that track topped the racing calendar. Pg. 41 BRONX...Many claimants to the honor of inventing the Bronx have arisen. It was an Old Waldorf tradition that the inventor was Johnnie Solon (or Solan), popular as one of the best mixers behind its bar counter for most of the latter's history. This is Solon's own story of the Creation--of the Bronx: "We had a cocktail in those days called the Duplex, which had a pretty fair demand. One day, I was making one for a customer when in came Traverson, head waiter of the Empire Room--the main dining room in the original Waldorf. A Duplex was composed of equal parts of French and Italian Vermouth, shaken up with squeezed orange peel, or two dashes of Orange Bitters. Traverson said, 'Why don't you get up a new cocktail? I have a customer who says you can't do it.' "'Can't I?' I replied. "Well, I finished the Duplex I was making, and a thought came to me. I poured into a mizing glass the equivalent of two jiggers of Gordon Gin. Then I filled the jigger with orange juice, so that it made one-third or orange juice and two-thirds of Gin. Then into the mixture I put a dash each of Italian and French Vermouth, shaking the thing up. I didn't taste it myself, but I poured it into a cocktail glass and handed it to Traverson and said: 'You are a pretty good judge. (He was.) See what you think of that.' Traverson tasted it. Then he swallowed it whole. "'By God!' he said, 'you've really got something new! That will make a big hit. Make me another and I will take it back to that customer in the dining room. Bet you'll sell a lot of them. Have you got plenty of oranges? If you haven't, you better stock up, because I'm going to sell a lot of those cocktails during lunch.' "The demand for Bronx cocktails started that day. Pretty soon we were using a whole case of oranges a day. And then several cases. "The name? No, it wasn't really named directly after the borough or the river so-called. I had been at the Bronx Zoo a day or two before, and I saw, of course, a lot of beasts I had never known. Customers used to tell me of the strange animals they saw after a lot of mixed drinks. So when Traverson said to me, as he started to take the drink in to the customer, 'What'll I tell him is the name of this drink?' I thought of those animals, and said: 'Oh, you can tell him it is a "Bronx."'" Pg. 43 CHANLER..."Sheriff Bob" Chanler, artist, married Lina Cavalieri, of the Metropolitan and made the front pages early in the century. Pg. 43 CHANTICLEER...Celebrated the local opening of Edmund Rostand's _Chanticler_. Pg. 45 CLOVER CLUB...A Philadelphia importation, originated in the bar of the old Bellevue-Stratford, where the Clover Club, composed of literary, legal, financial and business lights of the Quaker City, often dined and wined, and wined again. Pg. 47 DEFENDER...The name of an American yacht which took care of one of Sir Thomas Lipton's early but seemingly endless "Shamrocks." Pg. 48 DORLANDO...After the Italian marathon runner in the Olympic games in London, 1908. Pg. 48 DOWN...What else, in faith, than a county in Ireland--ancient home of many American bartenders? Pg. 50 FLOATER...There is equal authority for a contention that this was called after a racehorse owned by the late James R. Keene, or after an individual numerically important, and who was transported into various precincts at different hours of Election Day and thereby enabled to vote early and often, as the saying was. Pg. 52 HALSEY...Named in compliment to a well known stock-broker and patron of the Bar. Pg. 52 HAMLIN...Took its name from Harry Hamlin of Buffalo, an enthusiastic automobilist in the days when there were far more enthusiasts than automobiles. Pp. 53-54 HOFFMAN HOUSE...Conceived at the old Hotel in Madison Square whose bar was famous before the Old Waldorf was built, for the length of its brass rail, the Bougereau painting of nudities on the wall, and the notability of many of its patrons. Served at Old Waldorf Bar, but was not in the original Bar Book. Pg. 55 JAPALAC...So styled in compliment to a salesman who sold a product of that name; not because it would enamel a digestive apparatus. Pg. 57 LOFTUS...Called in compliment to Cissie Loftus, famous English comedienne and mimic, long a popular top-liner. Pg. 57 LONE TREE...After the 1899 equaivalent of a "nineteenth hole"--a tree which stood alone in a secluded part of a golf course near Philadelphia. Players on that course frequented the Old Waldorf Bar. Pp. 57-58 MACLEAN...In honor of John R. MacLean, long proprietor of the Cincinnati _Enquirer_ and the Washington _Post_. Pg. 58 MANHATTAN...Origin somewhat obscure. Probably first called after a well known club of that name, and not after an island famed for many years as the abode and domain of a certain "Tiger." Pg. 60 METROPOLE...Attributed to a once well known and somewhat lively hotel, whose bar was long a center of life after dark in the Times Square district. Pg. 60 METROPOLITAN...After a New York club, long popularly called "The Millionaires." Pg. 61 MONAHAN SPECIAL...Called after Mike Monahan, one of the Waldorf bar-keepers, its inventor. Pg. 62 NETHERLAND...Possibly invented at the Hotel Netherland, a contemporary of the Old Waldorf. Pg. 62 NEWMAN...Patronymic of a man who for a time ran the old Haymarket, a widely famed Tenderloin resort. Pp. 62-63 NORMANDIE...The name of a hotel in Broadway's early spotlight district, patronized by sportsmen and sports. Pg. 63 NUTTING...Its namesake was Col. Andrew J. Nutting, of Brooklyn, an ardent patron of the Bar for many years. Pp. 63-64 OLD-FASHIONED WHISKEY...This was brought to the Old Waldorf in the days of its "sit-down" Bar, and was introduced by, or in honor of, Col. James E. Pepper, of Kentucky, proprietor of a celebrated whiskey of the period. It was said to have been the invention of a bartender at the famous Pendennis Club in Louisville, of which Col. Pepper was a member. Pp. 71-72 SOUL KISS...After a musical comedy of that name, which, because of its appellation, stirred up a good many ideas among the young--and middle-aged--about the latter part of the first decade of the century. Pp. 73-74 THOMPSON...After Denman Thompson, the actor, who made "The Old Homestead" famous, and upon whom that play had equally beneficent results. Pp. 77-78 WOXUM...Some think it is aboriginally American, and ascribe it to a "bunch of Indians," so-called, who occasionally made whoopee--or, as it was said at that time, "raised hell"--in the Old Waldorf Bar when they could get away with it. Pg. 78 YALE...An institution somewhere beyond Old Greenwich, where many young men go for the purpose of commuting to New York for week-ends. The Old Bar used to be one of their "ports of call" and there they used to find many who in years past had gone to the same place and done the same things. Pg. 78 1915...Named in honor of a New Year. Some believe this was the last cocktail invented in the Old Waldorf Bar. Pg. 86 HIGH-BALLS...Just as is the case with "cocktail," the origin and application of "high-ball" as a name for a stimulant is open to discussion. Some have asserted that the name was taken from the National Game, possibly because of the effect upon the "batting average" of one who "hits" enough in rapid succession. However the lexicographer digs further. In slang, a drink is often described as a "shot"; in Pall-Mall English it's a "spot." High-ball, more or less pure American for what a Britisher calls a Whiskey-and-Soda, say the learned, is combined form "high," meaning tall, and descriptive of the container, and "ball," which used to be the equivalent of "shot," both metallically and absorbatively. Therefore the classical definition, "a 'long' drink consisting of whiskey, to which is added soda-water, mineral water or some other effervescent, served in a tall glass with broken ice." Pg. 94 PEGGY O'NEILL...After an opera or play of that name, it is believed. The original Peggy O'Neill was the daughter of a Washington tavern-keeper, and noted for her beauty and wit. Pg. 97 RICKEYS...The Rickey owes its name to Colonel "Joe" Rickey, though an interested public has long persisted in referring to him as "Colonel Jim" Rickey. Colonel Rickey had been a lobbyist in Washington, and as such used to buy drinks for members of COngress in the glamorous days before they had come to depend upon the discreet activities of gentlemen in green hats to keep them wet while they voted dry. The drink was invented and named for him at Shoemaker's, famous in Washington as a Congressional hangout. Pg. 100 BRUNSWICK...Invented at the Old Hotel Brunswick, once a resort for Fashion, and situated on the north side of Madison Square. Pp. 104-105 BRADLEY MARTIN...After the husband of a famous society leader who gave a much publicized ball in the room adjoining the Old Waldorf Bar, while the latter was still building. Pg. 107 FIN DE SIECLE...Name dates it back to 1899 or 1900, when the term was much used, but much mispronounced. Pp. 108-109 JOHN COLLINS...One of two members of the Collins family famous in bars in the old days. The difference between the two was that Tom Collins was made with Old Tom Gin--or supposedly--while a John Collins was made with Holland Gin. Pg. 116 WIDOW'S KISS...Just why the author of this drink should ascribe so many tastes to the osculation of some gentleman's relics, or who was the widow whose kiss was thus commemorated, it has been impossible to establish. One could only suggest that someone with an inquiring mind might catch a widow and experiment with direct labial contact. Pg. 126 CUBAN CONCOCTIONS...From Will P. Taylor, manager of the Hotel National, in Havana, who stuck at his post all through the recent local disturbances, which included a bombardment of his hotel, I have obtained the choicest Cuban Rum recipes. Out of compliment to Mr. Taylor, who was last resident manager of the Old Waldorf-Astoria, is placed at the head of this list the distinctive cocktail which at his hotel is also called a Daiquiri, or a Bacardi. Pg. 128 BOWMAN BACARDI...Named after the late John McEntee Bowman, American hotel man, who was the first to introduce modern American hotel-keeping into Havana and who, making the acquaintance of Bacardi on its native heath, probably did more to popularize it among Americans than any other one person. From SwainB at MOODYS.COM Mon Aug 30 14:25:14 1999 From: SwainB at MOODYS.COM (Swain, Bill) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:25:14 -0400 Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Message-ID: Ask any percussionist and they'll tell you it's a type of drumming pattern used on a snare drum... -----Original Message----- From: A. Vine [mailto:avine at ENG.SUN.COM] Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 8:33 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU Mon Aug 30 16:48:48 1999 From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:48:48 -0400 Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Message-ID: At 10:25 AM 8/30/99 -0400, "Swain, Bill" wrote: >Ask any percussionist and they'll tell you it's a type of drumming pattern >used on a snare drum... > And if they know their field, they'll tell you the pattern is called a "paradiddle" (first OED2 citation 1927) not a "taradiddle" (first OED2 citation 1796). Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu From SwainB at MOODYS.COM Mon Aug 30 17:10:27 1999 From: SwainB at MOODYS.COM (Swain, Bill) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:10:27 -0400 Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Message-ID: You're absolutely right! -----Original Message----- From: Gregory {Greg} Downing [mailto:gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 12:49 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? At 10:25 AM 8/30/99 -0400, "Swain, Bill" wrote: >Ask any percussionist and they'll tell you it's a type of drumming pattern >used on a snare drum... > And if they know their field, they'll tell you the pattern is called a "paradiddle" (first OED2 citation 1927) not a "taradiddle" (first OED2 citation 1796). Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu From jeclapp at WANS.NET Mon Aug 30 17:27:37 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:27:37 -0400 Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Message-ID: Swain, Bill wrote: > > Ask any percussionist and they'll tell you it's a type of drumming pattern > used on a snare drum... As already noted, that's a paradiddle. The strokes are LRLL RLRR LRLL RLRR, etc.--but evenly spaced. For mnemonic purposes you can think of each stroke corresponding to one syllable of the name. The double paradiddle has two extra strokes: LRLRLL RLRLRR LRLRLL, etc. As you play it you can hear in your mind "paraparadiddle paraparadiddle ..." Then there's the flam paradiddle, a.k.a. the flamadiddle--a paradiddle in which the first stroke of each set of four is a flam (which is two actually two strokes very close together, with accent on the second stroke). Of course, as you practice it you hear in your mind "flamadiddle flamadiddle flamadiddle." These basic drumming patterns are called the rudiments. There are twenty-six. The easier and more basic are "the first thirteen"; the more difficult and advanced are "the second thirteen." For our next lesson: the triple ratamacue. (Which I may be misspelling. It's been a while since I was in the high school band.) James E. Clapp From SwainB at MOODYS.COM Mon Aug 30 17:39:19 1999 From: SwainB at MOODYS.COM (Swain, Bill) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:39:19 -0400 Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Message-ID: Yes, of course it's PARADIDDLE... not taradiddle. -----Original Message----- From: James E. Clapp [mailto:jeclapp at WANS.NET] Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 1:28 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Swain, Bill wrote: > > Ask any percussionist and they'll tell you it's a type of drumming pattern > used on a snare drum... As already noted, that's a paradiddle. The strokes are LRLL RLRR LRLL RLRR, etc.--but evenly spaced. For mnemonic purposes you can think of each stroke corresponding to one syllable of the name. The double paradiddle has two extra strokes: LRLRLL RLRLRR LRLRLL, etc. As you play it you can hear in your mind "paraparadiddle paraparadiddle ..." Then there's the flam paradiddle, a.k.a. the flamadiddle--a paradiddle in which the first stroke of each set of four is a flam (which is two actually two strokes very close together, with accent on the second stroke). Of course, as you practice it you hear in your mind "flamadiddle flamadiddle flamadiddle." These basic drumming patterns are called the rudiments. There are twenty-six. The easier and more basic are "the first thirteen"; the more difficult and advanced are "the second thirteen." For our next lesson: the triple ratamacue. (Which I may be misspelling. It's been a while since I was in the high school band.) James E. Clapp From stephen.harper at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Aug 30 15:02:39 1999 From: stephen.harper at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Steve Harper) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:02:39 -0400 Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? In-Reply-To: <45608A23FAF4D211977B00805FD4A73B7EDD97@MDYNYCMSX4> Message-ID: Per my Microsoft Book shelf dictionary: tarradiddle 1. A petty falsehood; a fib. 2. Silly pretentious speech or writing; twaddle. [origin unknown] paradiddle Music. A pattern of drumbeats characterized by four basic beats and alternating left-handed and right-handed strokes on the successive primary beats. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Swain, Bill Sent: August 30, 1999 10:25 To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Ask any percussionist and they'll tell you it's a type of drumming pattern used on a snare drum... -----Original Message----- From: A. Vine [mailto:avine at ENG.SUN.COM] Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 8:33 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? From jessie at SIRSI.COM Mon Aug 30 18:33:28 1999 From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:33:28 -0500 Subject: Singlish Message-ID: Singapore government wants to eradicate "Singlish." More on BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_433000/433745.stm From pds at VISI.COM Mon Aug 30 21:38:39 1999 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:38:39 -0500 Subject: r-lessness in American Dialects In-Reply-To: <199908282007020330.0385D334@mail.cz.top.pl> Message-ID: A popular treatment of r-lessness (or, more strictly, r-lessness-lessness) in Southern speech aired this past weekend on PRI's "This American Life with Ira Glass". The author of the segment, Mark Schone, complains that actors and their dialect coaches who endeavor to reproduce "The Southern Accent" invariably give us what he calls the "Foghorn Leghorn Accent". (He seems to be unaware of Senator Clagghorn.) Special scorn is reserved for a supposedly prominent dialect coach in NYC, one Sam Schwa. (I'm not making this up.) The segment is available as a RealAudio file on the show's Web site: http://www.thislife.org/pages/archive99.html Schone's segment is Act Three and begins at about minute 30. Schone claims to have consulted with linguists. Anyone want to 'fess up? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 31 15:38:12 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:38:12 EDT Subject: Carpetbagger; Lookit Message-ID: LOOKIT (continued) A recent William Safire column mentioned "lookit," and I posted here that I remembered the word used by the cartoonist Briggs. It's in "The Days of Real Sport" by Briggs (syndicated by the New York Tribune), 6 May 1917: "OH BUCK!! HERE COMES SKIN-NAY! LOOKIT!" (I was looking for "jaywalking.") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CARPETBAGGER (continued) This is from the MONTGOMERY (Alabama) WEEKLY ADVERTISER, 25 February 1868, pg. 2, col. 1: _The Radical Defeat in Alabama._ The defeated carpet-baggers of this State are driven to other desperation. They are hopelessly gone, unless, by falsehoods and misrepresentations, they can prevail on Congress to save them. (...) Radical reconstruction is plainly, fairly and squarely beaten in Alabama, by fifteen to twenty thousand. The carpet-baggers may attempt to conceal these facts; and they may succeed. (...) _Perplexities of Defeated Carpet Baggers._ (...) The negroes are becoming heartily disgusted with the carpet-bag adventurers for whose benefit the Congressional plan of reconstruction was attempted. (...) It may be that Congress will agree to what is now asked. The intelligence of the South may be subjected to African ignorance. We may have forced upon us the galling yoke of carpet bag tyranny. (...) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 31 19:07:01 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:07:01 EDT Subject: (Ugly/Crazy) for the rest of your life Message-ID: OLD WALDORF-ASTORIA BAR BOOK (continued) It appears I left off the date. There were two copyright dates on it--1931 and 1934. However, it appears that all of the drinks were mixed before the prohibition years. This would antedate "daiquiri"--OED has an F. Scott Fitzgerald novel from 1920. Fitzgerald may very well have picked "daiquiri" up from the Waldorf bar--which got it from Cuba. -------------------------------------------------------- (UGLY/CRAZY) FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE My tour guide in Turkey was a tall, blonde woman who was quite attractive, but she had a dark secret. I wondered about the "beauty marks" on her face. "A dog ripped my face," she told me. "When I was young, my parents bought a dog. And it was the wrong kind of dog..." The other kids teased her, but she said she got back at them with this line: "My face will heal, but you'll be ugly for the rest of your life!" I haven't tracked down that exact quote, but this comes from my research on W. C. Fields, in the classic film IT'S A GIFT (1934): "I'll be sober tomorrow, but you'll be crazy the rest of your life." From dsgood at VISI.COM Tue Aug 31 19:35:45 1999 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:35:45 -0500 Subject: "frybread" "fry bread" Message-ID: Can anyone help with this? Dan Goodman dsgood at visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:11:45 EDT From: CherylStJ at aol.com Reply-To: prock-research at mail-list.com To: prock-research-d at mail-list.com Subject: [prock-research] frybread and comfy Generous listmembers-- I need immediate help with a line edit that I must return ASAP. One: The copy editor noted that Webster's says "frybread" didn't come into use until 1950. My characters are Cheyenne and the year is approximately 1885. She also divided it into two words: fry bread Can someone offer information? And if I can't use frybread as a staple, what other dish made from grain would my character prepare for a meal? From Ellen.Polsky at COLORADO.EDU Tue Aug 31 22:22:10 1999 From: Ellen.Polsky at COLORADO.EDU (POLSKY ELLEN S) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:22:10 -0600 Subject: "frybread" "fry bread" (fwd) Message-ID: My husband's contribution below. Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky at Colorado.EDU) >Can anyone help with this? > >Dan Goodman >dsgood at visi.com >http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html >Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:11:45 EDT >From: CherylStJ at aol.com >Reply-To: prock-research at mail-list.com >To: prock-research-d at mail-list.com >Subject: [prock-research] frybread and comfy > >Generous listmembers-- > >I need immediate help with a line edit that I must return ASAP. > >One: >The copy editor noted that Webster's says "frybread" didn't come into use >until 1950. My characters are Cheyenne and the year is approximately 1885. >She also divided it into two words: fry bread >Can someone offer information? And if I can't use frybread as a staple, what >other dish made from grain would my character prepare for a meal? I don't know if Webster's is referring to the date of the citation or the date of the item, but I'm sure their citation is too recent, unless a different term was used earlier. I'll see if i can find out anything. In the meantime, I believe that frybread, whatever it was called, came into use with reservation living and government distributions or store purchases, which introduced wheat flour and lard as staples. For the Cheyenne I think this had started by the 1870s or so, but I'm rather vague on this sort of thing without consulting a suitable history. The Cheyenne, of course, a fairly well documented, and you must have access to such material. There were aborignal forms of bread in North America, corn-based of course, but something like corn bread is, I think more of a southeastern dish. It wouldn't have baking powder to raise it, of course. Dorsey and Fletcher & LaFlesche on the Omaha discuss cooking and various dishes, though for a group much more settled than the Cheyenne before reservation days and after the late 1700s/early 1800s when they abandoned their last settled villages. The Omaha of the late 1800s had something they called by the same term they apply to breads and cakes today. The term is, if I recall correctly, a loan from a Muskogean language. I think it was a mixture of cornmeal and water, baked or maybe boiled, generally with beans included. It would be more of a stiff mush or pudding, or maybe a very crumbly, hard cornbread if baked. You can refer to the books mentioned for details. I'm not sure if there are comparable references for the Cheyenne, but you should definitely check, if you want to depict Cheyenne domesticity c. 1885. Most nomadic groups in the 1700s and 1800s traded for corn and other crops with more settled groups, so I'd guess that the Cheyenne used corn opportunistically throughout the 1800s, in their nomadic phase, but I'm not sure they had a means of grinding it. Mortars and metates are both rather heavy and take a lot of labor to make. You might want to think in terms of boiled corn mixed with beans or meat (or not). John E. Koontz NIST 895.05 303-487-5180 From SwainB at MOODYS.COM Tue Aug 31 20:32:41 1999 From: SwainB at MOODYS.COM (Swain, Bill) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:32:41 -0400 Subject: "frybread" "fry bread" Message-ID: Dan- another thought... "frybread" is generic and could be many different kinds of fried dough. "Fry bread" is French toast, at least in southern Appalachia. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Goodman [mailto:dsgood at VISI.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 3:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "frybread" "fry bread" Can anyone help with this? Dan Goodman dsgood at visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:11:45 EDT From: CherylStJ at aol.com Reply-To: prock-research at mail-list.com To: prock-research-d at mail-list.com Subject: [prock-research] frybread and comfy Generous listmembers-- I need immediate help with a line edit that I must return ASAP. One: The copy editor noted that Webster's says "frybread" didn't come into use until 1950. My characters are Cheyenne and the year is approximately 1885. She also divided it into two words: fry bread Can someone offer information? And if I can't use frybread as a staple, what other dish made from grain would my character prepare for a meal? From SwainB at MOODYS.COM Tue Aug 31 20:28:21 1999 From: SwainB at MOODYS.COM (Swain, Bill) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:28:21 -0400 Subject: "frybread" "fry bread" Message-ID: What are the circumstances? Is your character cooking over an open fire, or on a woodstove? There are a number of traditional "frybread" type breads that could be prepared either over an open fire or on top of a stove such as johnny-cake or johnny-bread, corn-pone, doughnuts (or do-nuts) hush puppies, or ashcake (probably the oldest and most widely known among early settlers and frontiersmen - it can be prepared without a pan). I'll check some sources, but I remember the term frybread used in some very old Smoky Mountain folk tales that my great granddaddy used to tell my Daddy. These stories were all in the oral tradition and not written down until Richard Chase came along back in the 30's, but in accordance with North Carolina hillbilly pronunciation if I were to transcribe it I would definitely spell it "frybread" - one word. Another pertinent question is of which ethnic descent is your character? Every culture in the world has some form of fried dough. Your character would probably call whatever is being cooked by the term used by his/her parents/grandparents. If your character is Cheyenne there is probably an Indian term for fried dough that would be even more authentic. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Goodman [mailto:dsgood at VISI.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 3:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "frybread" "fry bread" Can anyone help with this? Dan Goodman dsgood at visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:11:45 EDT From: CherylStJ at aol.com Reply-To: prock-research at mail-list.com To: prock-research-d at mail-list.com Subject: [prock-research] frybread and comfy Generous listmembers-- I need immediate help with a line edit that I must return ASAP. One: The copy editor noted that Webster's says "frybread" didn't come into use until 1950. My characters are Cheyenne and the year is approximately 1885. She also divided it into two words: fry bread Can someone offer information? And if I can't use frybread as a staple, what other dish made from grain would my character prepare for a meal? From marliss at HROADS.NET Wed Aug 25 21:15:46 1999 From: marliss at HROADS.NET (marliss at HROADS.NET) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:15:46 -0400 Subject: The Guineamen of Gloucester VA Message-ID: This is a plea from a Linguistics Grad at Old Dominion University. Has there been any ethnolinguistic study completed of the Guineamen in Gloucester, Virginia? If you have any information or can point to someone who does, please let me know ASAP. Thanks! Marliss From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Sun Aug 1 01:09:30 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 20:09:30 -0500 Subject: ride shotgun Message-ID: The term was widespread among teenagers in Orlando (FL) and Jackson (MS) in the mid '50s. ----- Original Message ----- From: Joan Houston Hall To: Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 11:19 AM Subject: ride shotgun > DARE is into the R's and S's now, and we've been looking at the phrases > with "ride." In considering the phrase "ride shotgun," meaning 'to ride in > the front passenger seat of a car,' we've found that it's widespread > throughout the country, and that there are more than 65 web pages that > offer "Shotgun Rules!" But we got to wondering about the presumed source > of that meaning, 'to ride as an armed guard on a stagecoach,' and have come > up with nothing. The earliest quote we've found is from 1961, and is for > the car sense, though it alludes to a historic sense. Is the stagecoach > meaning a figment of our imagination? Did it come from a popular Western > movie and get quickly transferred to a car? Can anyone help? Thanks! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Aug 1 01:47:49 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 21:47:49 EDT Subject: Bath-tub Message-ID: Thiis is from AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS (1997): _1870 bathtub_ Mark Twain seems to have invented the bathtub. Well, not the object itself. Baths, and wooden tubs for bathing, sometimes called _bathing tubs_, had been around for centuries. But Twain appears to be the first to join the two one-syllable words _bath_ and _tub_. In _Innocents Abroad_ (1869) he wrote, "They were going to put all three of us in one bath-tub." And in "A Ghost Story" of 1870 he wrote, "I...was sorry that he was gone...and sorrier still that he had carried off my red blanket and my bath-tub." By 1870, then, we can say that the bathtub had been installed in our language. Mark Twain probably invented "bathtub" right after he got through inventing "mountain climbing." Yes, it's 1870 in the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS, but that's all wet! BATHTUB (Accessible Archives) THE UPLAND UNION, 16 July 1851: "...when he returned he found his mother in the bathtub, with her head down." BATH TUB (Accessible Archives) THE NATIONAL ERA, 6 November 1851: "The bed is water enclosed in an India rubber tick, which lines a box, in shape like a bath tub." ((Making of America) AMERICA AS I FOUND IT (1852) by Mary Grey Lundie Duncan, pg. 329: "In the centre of the room is fixed a circular bath-tub..." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Aug 1 01:47:51 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 21:47:51 EDT Subject: Face the music; Pork barrel; Yellow journalism; Country club Message-ID: So many new databases, so many American words and phrases... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FACE THE MUSIC The RHHDAS has: _face the music_, 1. to face danger or hardship. 1850 in DAE: There should be no skulking or dodging...every man should "face the music." (...) 2. to face the consequences. Now S.E. 1862 "E. Kirke" _Among Pines_ 88: Dat sort don't run; dey face de music! From Accessible Archives, this is from THE NATIONAL ERA, Washington, D. C., Vol. II, No. 80, pg. 111, 13 July 1848: "FACE THE MUSIC."--The correspondent of the North American reports very accurately an amusing scene which we had the pleasure of seeing the other day in the Senate. (Is Congress online yet?--ed.) "Mr. Hale, of New Hampshire, the Liberty candidate for the Presidency, is not only a man of cleverness and parts, but withal a very good fellow, and no little of a wag. During the discursive debate in the Senate yesterday, upon an interrogatory being propounded to Mr. Foote--as to the conduct of General Cass--Mr. Hale, with much affected gravity, raised a point of order, alleging that it seemed to him entirely inconsistent, when a Presidential candidate had resigned his seat to avoid expressing his opinions, that his friends should be catechized as to those opinions. "Mr. FOOTE.--As the Senator from New Hampshire is an aspirant himself, what does he think a candidate ought to do? "Mr. HALE.--(while promptitude and humor.) 'Why, stand up and _face the music._'" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- PORK BARREL "Pork barrel" is the word-of-the-year for 1909 in AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS. The first citation on the Periodicals Contents Index is also 1909. However, this was in the Historical Newspapers Online index for THE NEW YORK TIMES: United States Congress--Fifty-fourth, First Session: Appropriations: Speaker Reed's Policy of Economy Must Be Waived in Interest of Presidential Candidacy and the "Pork Barrel" (Editorial) 01 February 1896 (Page 4 col 4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- YELLOW JOURNALISM "Yellow journalism" is the word-of-the-year for 1898 in AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS. These came up on the index for THE NEW YORK TIMES: Newspaper--Generally: "Freaks": Gard, A. L.: "Signs of Promise in Crusade Against Yellow Journalism" 16 June 1897 (Page 3 col 2) Newspapers--New York Sun: Yellow Journalism Charge at Citiizens' Union Mass Meeting 02 October 1897 (Page 2 col 7) New York CIty--City Record: Pictures Introduced: Yellow Journalism Tendency (Editorial) 31 December 1897 (Page 6 col 4) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- COUNTRY CLUB "Country club" is the word-of-the-year in AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS for 1891. The BDE has it from 1894. (Accessible Archives) THE PENNSYLVANIA GAZETTE, 30 August 1775: "...had on, and took with him, a country club light coloured upper jacket..." (Accessible Archives) THE LADY'S BOOK, March 1835, pg. 126: "...so refreshing to the weary spirits of a country club..." (Historical Newspapers Online) THE NEW YORK TIMES, 12 October 1884, pg. 7, col. 2, "Athletic Sports--Country Club of Westchester County: Racing Meeting Programme." (Periodicals Contents Index) "Raisin Making: A Chautauqua Town and Country Club Report," CHAUTAUQUAN, October 1885, pg. 338. (Periodicals Contents Index) "Country Club Life," CHAUTAUQUAN, Oct. 1888, pg. 601. (Periodicals Contents Index) "Evolution of the Country Club," HARPER'S NEW MONTHLY MAGAZINE, December 1894, pg. 16. From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Sun Aug 1 13:30:08 1999 From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (TERRY IRONS) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 09:30:08 -0400 Subject: NPR Talk Message-ID: I sometimes listen to the new show "Talk of the Nation," especially science friday's. It's more palatable One day this week, in a discussion of world population, the announcer said "resources" with the [s] --> [z]. It is predictable as intervocalic voicing, but it struck me as odd, especially as stress seemed to be more on the second syllable. I generally say [risors at z], with stress I think on syllable one. Has anyone else noticed this phenomenon? How widespread is this pattern of voicing? Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 2 01:39:50 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 21:39:50 EDT Subject: Slay trader; Casino mentality; Tulips Message-ID: The NEW YORK POST, 31 July 1999, pp. 4-5: "'SLAY TRADER' AIMED TO SETTLE ACCOUNTS." Eek--sounds like a slasher pic at the multiplex. The NEW YORK TIMES, 1 August 1999, Section 1, pg. 16, cols. 1-2: "Casino Mentality" Linked To Day Trading's Stresses The earliest "casino mentality" on Usenet was 2-22-98. The following was on CNNfn, 13 June 1996, and is on their web site: It's what market watchers call a "casino mentality"--the attitude that the stock market is a giant crap table where fast money is easy picking. The same mentality is even riskier when investors become dissatisfied with even 100 or 200 percent returns on investment. A future RHHDAS should have something about "tulips"--stocks that have been bid up by speculators convinced they can trade the shares to someone else an hour later for a fat profit. The Day Trading lingo keeps on coming... From pulliam at IIT.EDU Mon Aug 2 03:44:31 1999 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 22:44:31 -0500 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At this moment my 17-year-old stepdaughter and my 9-year-old son (who have lived in Chicago for six years) are arguing with my 14-year-old stepson (who has lived in Pittsburgh for two years) and a 17-year-old family friend (who grew up in Boston). The issue: is the card game "Go Fish!" as believed fervently by the former, or "Goldfish!" as embraced just as strongly by the latter? I have told them that it is likely that they are both right, but that I would submit the question to this list for confirmation or denial. It looks like _Goldfish_ is an eastern phenomenon, while _Go Fish_ is the midwestern version, but is this really the case? We have just begun a weeklong stay together on Drummond Island, MI, so we will all be looking forward anxiously to hearing from those of you who care to respond, or who have time to respond. Thank you! - Greg From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 2 00:35:20 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:35:20 EDT Subject: "The man who dies rich dies in disgrace" (continued) Message-ID: In today's NEW YORK POST, 1 August 1999, pg. 7, is: GATE$: MY DOUGH WILL GO BEFORE I LOG OFF (Box) "The man who dies rich dies in disgrace." ANDREW CARNEGIE The richest man in the world is giving almost all of it away. Microsoft founder Bill Gates and his wife plan to devote most of their $105 billion fortune to wiping out deadly diseases such as AIDS and malaria, the Sunday Times of London reported today. (...) But Gates, a self-made man, has read Andrew Carnegie's "The Gospel of Truth" several times and loves the quote, "The man who dies rich dies in disgrace." The story is taken from Sunday's Times of London, which is at: www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Times/frontpage.html?999. Check the ADS-L archives. I made a posting here on 2 December 1997, quoting the 11 March 1906 WASHINGTON POST that had Carnegie denying he ever said this. I found this using Historical Newspapers Online, from the NEW YORK TIMES, 30 March 1905, pg. 2, col. 1: _Denies a Famous Saying_ "In what I am now doing (giving money to colleges and libraries--ed.) I find supreme satisfaction. I know of no pleasure in life which for me is compatable to creating a library which is not mine when created, but belongs to the people. A library is a cradle of democracy. I never said that to die rich is to die disgraced. What I did say was much more sensible and much nearer the truth. Some time we will discuss that if it interests you." So there you have it. Carnegie really said that it's a disgrace not to give your billions to something like a library that contains something like the Dictionary of American Regional English. E-mail Gates at once! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 2 00:16:47 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 20:16:47 EDT Subject: AMERICAN BUSINESS JARGON by W. Davis Folsom Message-ID: In today's (1 August 1999) New York Times, Business Section, pg. 6, col. 5, is "Counting Coinages In Jargon." The article gives free advertisement to "a modest jargon Web site, www.duesouth.net/~dfolsom," by W. Davis Folsom, a business professor at the University of South Carolina-Aiken. He wrote UNDERSTANDING AMERICAN BUSINESS JARGON: A DICTIONARY in 1997, but has recently updated it with more than 500 terms. I looked at the terms on his "modest" site--many of the terms have appeared in ATNW, and many are terms I've worked on ("Big Board," for example). I don't think he's an ADS member--must be the $35 dues. He probably hasn't even heard of the ADS, or me. It's embarrassing to introduce him to what he's missing... From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Sun Aug 1 14:08:58 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 09:08:58 -0500 Subject: Ooops! Message-ID: I enjoyed your item; however, for the benefit of non-English majors, "nunnery" in those anti-Roman Catholic days was a reference to a house of ill repute. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Salovesh To: Sent: Saturday, July 31, 1999 1:23 AM Subject: Ooops! > Earlier this evening, I was putting away some freshly-done laundry in > our bedroom. I turned the alarm clock radio on to our local NPR outlet > to fill the silence. I came in at the start of a program called > "Marketplace", which usually is the home of corporate puff pieces and > other business "news". For me, it's a close call which is preferable: > Marketplace or dead silence. > > I'm glad I left the radio on this time. > > They broadcast a short bit of alleged information about travel, > announced by somebody introduced as "Mr. Savvy". I'll try to quote his > beginning: > > "Shakespeare got it right when he said 'get thee to a nunnery'. > Travelers to Italy report that there are a number of convents and > monasteries that provide > excellent tourist accommodations. Their low prices make them a great > bargain." > > Mr. Savvy may not know much about Shakespeare, but he is one hell of a > comic. > I started laughing so hard that I had to give up on the laundry sorting. > > It sure was a perfect demonstration of why people should forget the crib > sheets and read both the full text and the footnotes. > > -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From rkm at SLIP.NET Mon Aug 2 06:14:26 1999 From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 23:14:26 -0700 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It was Go Fish when I grew up in NYC, so I'm not sure about your East Coast vs. Midwest conclusion. Rima From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Mon Aug 2 07:31:28 1999 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 02:31:28 -0500 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! Message-ID: Greg Pulliam wrote: > > At this moment my 17-year-old stepdaughter and my 9-year-old son (who > have lived in Chicago for six years) are arguing with my 14-year-old > stepson (who has lived in Pittsburgh for two years) and a 17-year-old > family friend (who grew up in Boston). The issue: is the card game > "Go Fish!" as believed fervently by the former, or "Goldfish!" as > embraced just as strongly by the latter? > > I have told them that it is likely that they are both right, but that > I would submit the question to this list for confirmation or denial. > It looks like _Goldfish_ is an eastern phenomenon, while _Go Fish_ is > the midwestern version, but is this really the case? Greg: My answer is based on an extensive, or even exhaustive, study of families with experience of the game. Interviews included both discussions with and observations of interacton networks centered successively on each family member. (Let me add that I did not undertake this study lightly, much less voluntarily. Our two sons forced me into playing the game almost past the point of endurance. Teaching them to play gin rummy alleviated the problem to some extent, but the eventual cure required introducing them to poker before their agemates learned that poker is a game of skill, not chance.) I tried to develop my data into a more general article ("Non-Euclidean parallels DO intersect: pish/fish and pish/piss", Salovesh n.d.), but as our sons grew up they forced my concerns to shift to other topics. I showed a preliminary draft of what I had to colleagues. When they pointed out the possibility that my survey suffered from a methodological weakness, I put the project aside and hve not been able to return to it. (Their suggestion was that critical readers might feel more comfortable if my sample of families had an n > 1. Unfortunately, budgetary consolidation ruled out the possibility of a grant to finance either a second spouse/auxiliary concubine or a suitable number of children to adopt.) FWIW, and on the basis of my limited sample, I believe that your hypothesis may well have some grounding in fact. All participants in my sample are Midwestern (Chicago oriented) in residence and affiliation. All of them, without exception, call the game "go fish". None of them ever heard of anyone who knew how to play the game calling it "goldfish". (Most acquaintances of the sample recognize and respond to an abbreviated form, "fish", in place of "go fish".) An older member of the sample has a vague recollection of a similar game known to his grandparents. That game is called "pishe paysha". Considered in isolation, the game's name might be explained as another instance of the initial consonant shift from voiceless bilabial to voiceless dental fricative, as in Latin pater/English father. Further elicitation produced the fact that "pishe paysha" is derived from Yiddish. The apparent parallelism in the initial consonants of Yiddish pishe/English fish to Latin pisces/english fish can only be viewed as accidental, not systematic. The proof is found in the second element of Yiddish "gefilte fish", a term which antedates by far the relatively recent "pishe paysha". (I ignore, for the moment, the dialectal variant "gefulte fisk".) -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From dumasb at UTK.EDU Mon Aug 2 11:39:54 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:39:54 -0400 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All I have ever heard is "Go Fish"! Bethany From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Mon Aug 2 13:33:59 1999 From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:33:59 -0400 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:44 PM 8/1/99 , Greg Pulliam wrote: >I have told them that it is likely that they are both right, but that >I would submit the question to this list for confirmation or denial. >It looks like _Goldfish_ is an eastern phenomenon, while _Go Fish_ is >the midwestern version, but is this really the case? We have just >begun a weeklong stay together on Drummond Island, MI, so we will all >be looking forward anxiously to hearing from those of you who care to >respond, or who have time to respond. I grew up in Connecticut playing "Go fish" and never heard it called "goldfish." Doesn't the name "Go fish" derive from the response one player gives another who has asked the first player for a card from a specific suit ("Got any spades?")? I always took "Go fish" as meaning "I don't have one, you'll have to pull another card ("go fishing") from the pile." -- Evan Morris words1 at word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Mon Aug 2 13:38:23 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:38:23 -0400 Subject: Query: Whole Enchilada Message-ID: This query came into the ADS web site. Please provide whatever assistance you can to the sender. Make sure to send your reply to the address below, not to me, although you may want to carbon copy the list. I have referred the sender to the ADS-L archives for answers to "the whole nine yards," although I guess it couldn't hurt to have that issue addressed directly. I will be conducting a diversity presentation on Slang. I was asked for the origin of "the whole nine yards" and "the whole enchilada". Do you know where I might find that info and the origin of other slang terms? Rod Drumm nyrrod at att.net From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Mon Aug 2 13:53:44 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:53:44 -0400 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! Message-ID: In Delaware, 1950s & 60s: Fish, and Go Fish. Usually, someone with a deck of cards in hand would ask if someone else wanted to play Fish. Central Pennsylvania, 1980s & 90s: Fish. Might have heard phrase Go Fish, but Fish seems to be the dominant usage. My just-finished high school daughter says that both Fish & Go Fish are used. 1961, Dec. pbk. (1956): Rules of Games According to Hoyle, by Richard L. Frey, Crest (Fawcett, Greenwich, Conn.), p. 186, indexes Go Fish, "a simpler form of Authors. . . ." 1962, Feb. pbk (1958): Hoyle's Rules of Games, newly revised and expanded edition, by Albert H. Morehead & Geoffrey mott-Smith, Signet (New American Library, NY), p. 169, indexes Fish, "a simpler form of Authors. . . ." 1963 pbk.: The Official Rules of Card Games, edited by Albert H. Morehead, publisher's 53rd ed., United States Playing Card Company (Cincinnati, OH), p. 217, indexes Go Fish, Fish, Go Fishing, & Authors, noting (in a separate description for Authors) that "Authors is similar to Go Fish, but is often played more seriously." The page heading is Go Fish. [Why not just get them to play the game Michigan, which Morehead notes as being "ideal for groups in which there is no acceptable game known to all members. . . ."?] George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From jrader at M-W.COM Mon Aug 2 10:37:51 1999 From: jrader at M-W.COM (Jim Rader) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:37:51 +0000 Subject: Jaywalking Message-ID: Eric Hamp's middle name is "Pratt," not "Peter." He's a man who likes precise detail, so I feel bound to stick my nose in and correct this one. Eric's parents were British--I believe they emigrated when he was a small child--and he used to sprinkle his speech with carefully preserved Briticisms, one of them being his pronunciation of _schedule_. JIm Rader > Dear Ron: > > I'm glad to be in company with you and Eric Hamp on this one. > > It's lucky my memory of our family's folk etymology for "jaywalk" > antedates, by some years, the first course I took in linguistics back in > 1955. The professor was . . . Eric Peter Hamp. > > By 1955, I no longer had much opportunity to discuss word derivations > with my parents, and Eric didn't happen to mention "his" etymology of > jaywalking back then. > > I was not aware of your comments, or Eric's, in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY > (1955) until you cited them in your message. > > That's just to point out that you now have evidence for *three* > independent inventions of the J-curve etymology for jaywalking. > > -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! > > P.S.: Early in that Intro to Linguistics course, I was impressed by > Eric's citation of variations in Latin "centum" (the lines dividing > kentum, sentum, > chentum) in support of his pronunciation of Celtic, beginning with /k/. > I would have taken him as a model for all things etymological if it > weren't for his way of saying "schedule". His initial sh directly > contradicted the initial /k/ he claimed as the only proper way to > pronounce Celtic. > > I decided to stick to my own sprachgefuhl from then on. When anyone > objects, I irrelevantly refer to Chomsky's (later !) dictum about the > native speaker being the only dependable judge of the grammaticality of > a sentence. > > I may get things wrong, but at least I don't feel uncomfortable about > it. > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Aug 2 15:04:04 1999 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:04:04 -0400 Subject: Another New Yorker for "Go Fish" In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990802092826.00af8a90@pop.interport.net> Message-ID: the subject line says it all. Larry Horn (b. NYC 1945) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 2 15:02:43 1999 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:02:43 -0700 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! Message-ID: i grew up (in the 40s and 50s) in eastern pennsylvania, and it was strictly Go Fish for me. in the 60s the Harvard Lampoon published a parody of the james bond novels in which a central scene was a card game between the hero and the villain, lacertus alligator. i still recall the thrill when the hero cried out in victory, "Go fish, Lacertus!" arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Mon Aug 2 19:38:36 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:38:36 -0400 Subject: Go Fish! Message-ID: Player A says, "Give me all your [e.g.:] threes", or "Do you have any threes?" If player B has any, s/he must comply, and player A gets to ask for cards of another rank. If not, however, player B says "Go fish!", and player A must "fish" by drawing the top card from the stock pile. If the card drawn is of the rank demanded (here, a three), player A shows it to player B and gets another turn. If not, it's player B's turn. Thus I learned the game* (some rules omitted here), and the name, which makes perfect sense according to these rules. "Gold Fish" must be a mondegreen, from children who have seen goldfish in bowls but have never gone fishing. (Maybe they are also L-vocalizers and final-stop-droppers.) * In the 1950's, probably from my maternal grandmother, b. 1889, NYC. -- Mark From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Aug 2 20:11:37 1999 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:11:37 -0400 Subject: iced tea Message-ID: My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call iced >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called 'ice' tea >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't sell >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. DAE has only iced tea. DA has only iced tea. WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. OED has no reference to either. OEDs has no reference to either. Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. DARE has no reference to either. AmDiDic has no reference to either. Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution for these two terms? Regards, David K. Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Mon Aug 2 20:31:48 1999 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 13:31:48 -0700 Subject: iced tea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can remember seeing "ice tea" on signs when the big espresso (when "expresso" began to be seen around town) craze was booming, at least 12 years ago in Seattle. I'd always assumed it was due to carelessness or ignorance rather than dialectical in nature. As far as pronunciation goes, I can create a difference if I want to, but the pronunciation that comes out for "iced tea" is not what I'd normally use. Instead, the pronunciation for "ice tea" (when trying to say them differently) is what I normally use. Benjamin Barrett gogaku at ix.netcom.com -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Barnhart Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution for these two terms? Regards, David K. Barnhart barnhart at highlands.com From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM Mon Aug 2 15:49:04 1999 From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Enid Pearsons) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:49:04 -0400 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! Message-ID: Go Fish (name of the game -- vigorous primary/primary or secondary/primary stress pattern); "Go fish" or just plain "Fish" for the triumphant command to the other player. Never, never Goldfish, which I assume would have had a primary/secondary stress pattern. This all in Bridgeport, New Britain, and New Haven, Connecticut. ))))))))) Previous Notes Mail (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( To: ADS-L @ LISTSERV.UGA.EDU cc: (bcc: Enid Pearsons/Trade/RandomHouse) From: Arnold Zwicky Date: 08/02/99 11:02 AM Subject: Re: Go(ld) Fish! i grew up (in the 40s and 50s) in eastern pennsylvania, and it was strictly Go Fish for me. in the 60s the Harvard Lampoon published a parody of the james bond novels in which a central scene was a card game between the hero and the villain, lacertus alligator. i still recall the thrill when the hero cried out in victory, "Go fish, Lacertus!" arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From jessie at SIRSI.COM Mon Aug 2 20:38:19 1999 From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:38:19 -0500 Subject: iced tea Message-ID: My gut feeling is that "ice tea" is a southernism, and not something that is written very often; i.e., you go into a restaurant and order "ice tea" (the d and the t becoming indistinguishable). These same people may write it either way, with or without the d. And it seems from Nexis that "iced tea" is the predominate written form. Conversely, if it is a southernism, the d of "iced" is never pronounced, even though the speaker may write it with the d. Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: Barnhart To: Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 3:11 PM Subject: iced tea > My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations > there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. > > > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call > iced > >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called > 'ice' tea > >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't > sell > >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." > >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. > > I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the > dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. > > DAE has only iced tea. > DA has only iced tea. > WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. > OED has no reference to either. > OEDs has no reference to either. > Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. > DARE has no reference to either. > AmDiDic has no reference to either. > > Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea > Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. > > Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution > for these two terms? > > Regards, > David K. Barnhart > barnhart at highlands.com From BBriggs at LATTE.MEMPHIS.EDU Mon Aug 2 20:40:12 1999 From: BBriggs at LATTE.MEMPHIS.EDU (Bonnie Osborn Briggs) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:40:12 -0500 Subject: iced tea Message-ID: In the Mid-South you will generally hear "ice tea". You even see it on menus. Then if you ask for ice tea, you have to say whether you want sweet tea or not. Sweet tea already has sugar or artificial sweeteners added. BB Barn hart wrote: > > My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations > there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. > > > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call > iced > >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called > 'ice' tea > >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't > sell > >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." > >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. > > I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the > dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. > > DAE has only iced tea. > DA has only iced tea. > WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. > OED has no reference to either. > OEDs has no reference to either. > Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. > DARE has no reference to either. > AmDiDic has no reference to either. > > Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea > Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. > > Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution > for these two terms? > > Regards, > David K. Barnhart > barnhart at highlands.com From pulliam at IIT.EDU Mon Aug 2 17:28:09 1999 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 13:28:09 -0400 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! In-Reply-To: <37A5A2E8.EA17C251@ark.ship.edu> Message-ID: Thank you all for the help! - Greg From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 2 22:03:41 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:03:41 PDT Subject: (ice(d)) tea Message-ID: I assume we're talking about spelling here. (I don't think anyone in normal speech would distinguish 'ice tea' from 'iced tea'). I agree that "ice tea" is something I've only seen written in the South. Besides "sweet tea" we must consider "hot tea". I feel that in most Southern areas if you ask for "tea" it will come ice or iced -- cold, in any case. If you wanted hot tea you would generally have to say so. I think that is what underlies the writing of "ice tea". Since the compound is not native to the dialect, they would have no problem writing it either way. And MAYBE "ice" vs. "hot" seems like a better opposed pair than "iced" vs. "hot". Or maybe some rule of economy prefers to hear "ice". Also, what about "ice water" -- it somehow seems different to me (a Northerner). I would no sooner write "iced water" than "ice tea". Well, maybe a little bit sooner. DEJ _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM Mon Aug 2 22:19:17 1999 From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Enid Pearsons) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 18:19:17 -0400 Subject: iced tea Message-ID: It's not limited to the South. "Ice tea" exists on restaurant menus and restaurant and supermarket signs all over New York City. The wedding of /d/ and /t/ seems a reasonable explanation until you also notice the proliferation of "can soda," "can milk," "butter roll," and other examples that do not come so readily to mind. My personal favorite is "lady shoes," which does have a phonological explanation. But I can't shake the image. ))))))))) Previous Notes Mail (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( To: ADS-L @ LISTSERV.UGA.EDU cc: (bcc: Enid Pearsons/Trade/RandomHouse) From: Jessie Emerson Date: 08/02/99 04:38 PM Subject: Re: iced tea My gut feeling is that "ice tea" is a southernism, and not something that is written very often; i.e., you go into a restaurant and order "ice tea" (the d and the t becoming indistinguishable). These same people may write it either way, with or without the d. And it seems from Nexis that "iced tea" is the predominate written form. Conversely, if it is a southernism, the d of "iced" is never pronounced, even though the speaker may write it with the d. Jessie ----- Original Message ----- From: Barnhart To: Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 3:11 PM Subject: iced tea > My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations > there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. > > > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call > iced > >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called > 'ice' tea > >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't > sell > >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." > >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. > > I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the > dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. > > DAE has only iced tea. > DA has only iced tea. > WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. > OED has no reference to either. > OEDs has no reference to either. > Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. > DARE has no reference to either. > AmDiDic has no reference to either. > > Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea > Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. > > Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution > for these two terms? > > Regards, > David K. Barnhart > barnhart at highlands.com From emckean at VERBATIMMAG.COM Mon Aug 2 22:43:45 1999 From: emckean at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 17:43:45 -0500 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting In-Reply-To: <199908022220.SAA02185@interlock.randomhouse.com> Message-ID: I recoiled today (not in horror, not exactly sure in what) as I carefully made little stars in ballpoint pen to give emphasis to the word "really" in a casual note to my sister. That's right; I wrote "*really*" in a note instead of underlining it. Either I'm spending too much time writing email, or I've reverted to 14 years of age (although I didn't dot any i's with stars or hearts). Anyone else noticing email conventions (like emoticons) dribbling into handwriting or typescript? You don't have to admit it if you've done it. I can carry my shame alone. Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com PS I've also seen "ice tea"-- usually in menu-ese. And despite the proliferation of "southern style" restaurants here in the Midwest I still ask for "sweet tea" in vain. From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Mon Aug 2 22:36:20 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:36:20 -0700 Subject: Off-Topic: NPR Blechs (was Ooops!) Message-ID: Evan Morris wrote: > > > About 3 years ago I spent some time trying to figure out why NPR annoyed me > so much, and I realized that it was (aside from their inexplicable and > undeserved reputation for "depth") something I can only call the "NPR > simper." It's that cloying, pedantic sing-song all their newsreaders > affect, addressing the audience as if it were composed of intelligent but > recalcitrant children. I believe Susan Stamberg invented it, but the last > time I listened to an NPR newscast, _every single one_ of their > "personalities" was speaking in that smarmy sing-song. Listen for it -- > it'll make you want to drop-kick your radio out the nearest window. I noticed this tonality too. I figured they all were trained specifically to talk like that. Mind you, BBC reporters also have a particular song. Even Monty Python would mimic this song when doing mock news reporting; unfortunately that's where I heard it first, and have trouble taking the BBC reporters seriously sometimes. BTW, my husband can't stand Terry Gross of Fresh Air. Unfortunately she comes on when we're listening to the radio in the morning. It's enough to get us into work earlier! > > BBC World Service, Radio Netherlands and Radio Canada Intl. are all > excellent. My satellite system (we're too far out in the boonies for > cable) carries the BBC America TV channel, which is mostly rubbish, but the > daily evening newscast is everything US TV news is not -- just news, no > swooping graphics, no majestic theme music. There's more news in one BBC > half-hour than there is in a week of NBC, CBS, CNN, etc. Our local public TV station gives us BBC World News from 6-7 PM. Plus a fair amount of BBC programming. Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Mon Aug 2 22:48:29 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:48:29 PDT Subject: iced tea -- trying to save my theory Message-ID: "Ice tea" is written by non-native speakers of English in NYC. The same explanation applies for them as for Southerners, to whom the language is native but the compound is not... On thin ice(d), DEJ >From: Enid Pearsons >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: iced tea >Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 18:19:17 -0400 > >It's not limited to the South. "Ice tea" exists on restaurant menus and >restaurant and supermarket signs all over New York City. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU Mon Aug 2 23:25:39 1999 From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:25:39 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have seen emoticons, mainly the :) emoticon, being written. And I know someone who, upon, realizing that someone is teasing him, will say "colon p" - the appropriate emoticon to use in that situation. :P Johanna Franklin Excerpts from mail: 2-Aug-99 Email conventions seeping i.. by Erin McKean at VERBATIMMAG. > >Anyone else noticing email conventions (like emoticons) dribbling into >handwriting or typescript? You don't have to admit it if you've done it. I >can carry my shame alone. From LJT777 at AOL.COM Mon Aug 2 23:57:19 1999 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (Lindsie Tucker) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:57:19 EDT Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting Message-ID: My sense is that using the smiling face to indicate humor predates the "emoticon" by quite some time. At least I have used it in lieu of something lame like "ha ha" for a number of years. I recently found myself saying BRB to someone who is also very familiar with internet jargon, abbreviations, etc. As I said it, we looked at each other and grimaced! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 3 00:56:16 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:56:16 EDT Subject: Fwd: Historical Newspaper Index Sources Message-ID: For whatever it's worth, this is what this is. You can get it on your home computer for free. --Barry Popik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Va_ROOM at FCPL.CO.FAIRFAX.VA.US (Va ROOM) Subject: Fwd: Historical Newspaper Index Sources Date: 2 Aug 99 18:21 +0000 Size: 2066 URL: From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 3 01:44:11 1999 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:44:11 -0400 Subject: iced tea In-Reply-To: <199908022220.SAA02185@interlock.randomhouse.com> Message-ID: Nobody in this discussion (unless it escaped my notice) brought up the parallel with "ice cream". This was a shibboleth for prescriptivists in the 19th century (sorry I don't have the relevant dates or publications--Dennis Baron probably does) who insisted that the only logical spelling, and presumably pronunciation, was "iced cream". I see the gradual penetration of "ice tea" as following a similar route, even if "iced tea" is still the prevailing written form. Notice too that with "ice(d) cream" there would have been less of a phonological motivation for the reanalysis. Larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Aug 3 01:49:22 1999 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:49:22 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting In-Reply-To: <9b80b36a.24d78a5f@aol.com> Message-ID: At 7:57 PM -0400 8/2/99, LJT777 at AOL.COM wrote: >My sense is that using the smiling face to indicate humor predates the >"emoticon" by quite some time. But a SIDEways smiley face :) ? From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Aug 3 02:32:11 1999 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 19:32:11 -0700 Subject: iced tea In-Reply-To: <023401bedd26$f4973ac0$a0eaa6ce@sirsi.com> Message-ID: Not necessarily a southernism. I've always refered to it as "ice tea" and have always heard it pronounced that way, although I've seen "iced" and "ice tea" in print, but have no idea which predominates--at least in the Pacific Northwest. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Jessie Emerson wrote: > My gut feeling is that "ice tea" is a southernism, and not something that is > written very often; i.e., you go into a restaurant and order "ice tea" (the > d and the t becoming indistinguishable). These same people may write it > either way, with or without the d. And it seems from Nexis that "iced tea" > is the predominate written form. > > Conversely, if it is a southernism, the d of "iced" is never pronounced, > even though the speaker may write it with the d. > > Jessie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Barnhart > To: > Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 3:11 PM > Subject: iced tea > > > > My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations > > there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. > > > > > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call > > iced > > >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called > > 'ice' tea > > >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't > > sell > > >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." > > >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. > > > > I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the > > dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. > > > > DAE has only iced tea. > > DA has only iced tea. > > WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. > > OED has no reference to either. > > OEDs has no reference to either. > > Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. > > DARE has no reference to either. > > AmDiDic has no reference to either. > > > > Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea > > Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. > > > > Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution > > for these two terms? > > > > Regards, > > David K. Barnhart > > barnhart at highlands.com > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 3 05:17:48 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 01:17:48 EDT Subject: "Under dog" at Yale, 1871 (a "dog day" etymology) Message-ID: BDE has 1887 for "underdog." The Making of America database shows this from the 1870s. Lyman Hotchkiss Bagg's FOUR YEARS AT YALE (1871) has "the under dog in the fight" on page 81. "The under-dog in the fight" is also in OVERLAND MONTHLY AND OUT WEST MAGAZINE, June 1872, pg. 520. "...the public...valiantly sides with the under dog, otherwise the artist" is in APPLETONS' MAGAZINE, 8 August 1879, pg. 189, col. 2. A "dog day" etymology. From gjxy at MAIL.SHISU.EDU.CN Tue Aug 3 00:12:02 1999 From: gjxy at MAIL.SHISU.EDU.CN (gjxy) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:12:02 +0800 Subject: »Ø¸´: Re: iced tea Message-ID: Prof.Benjamin, The "ice tea"--"iced tea" is like the"go fish"--"gold fish" , is it? |My gut feeling is that "ice tea" is a southernism, and not something that is |written very often; i.e., you go into a restaurant and order "ice tea" (the |d and the t becoming indistinguishable). These same people may write it |either way, with or without the d. And it seems from Nexis that "iced tea" |is the predominate written form. | |Conversely, if it is a southernism, the d of "iced" is never pronounced, |even though the speaker may write it with the d. | |Jessie |----- Original Message ----- |From: Barnhart |To: |Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 3:11 PM |Subject: iced tea | | |> My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations |> there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. |> |> > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call |> iced |> >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called |> 'ice' tea |> >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't |> sell |> >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." |> >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. |> |> I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the |> dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. |> |> DAE has only iced tea. |> DA has only iced tea. |> WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. |> OED has no reference to either. |> OEDs has no reference to either. |> Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. |> DARE has no reference to either. |> AmDiDic has no reference to either. |> |> Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea |> Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. |> |> Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution |> for these two terms? |> |> Regards, |> David K. Barnhart |> barnhart at highlands.com From rkm at SLIP.NET Tue Aug 3 05:59:28 1999 From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:59:28 -0700 Subject: iced tea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Nobody in this discussion (unless it escaped my notice) brought up the >parallel with "ice cream". Nor has anyone brought up "shave ice" (Hawaii). Rima From bkgood at PACBELL.NET Tue Aug 3 06:23:41 1999 From: bkgood at PACBELL.NET (Brian Good) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:23:41 -0700 Subject: As many (as possible) Message-ID: I don't recall ever hearing or seeing this omission before, but now I have come across it three times in the past month or so. The speaker says "as many" while leaving off the "as possible" part. It really sticks out for me because it sort of grates on my nerves.... I'm left to complete the "as possible" in my head. Here's where I've heard/seen it: McSweeney's Internet Tendency, "Four Dreams of Gergen," by Paul Maliszewski: http://www.mcsweeneys.net/1999/06/14dreams.html "...Lewis Lapham appears. He says, Provide as many correct and acceptable spellings of the leader of Libya." On a plane before takeoff (repeated twice!): "In order to help conserve overhead bin space, please put as many bags under the seat in front of you." On a radio station in Seattle: "We're trying to get as many people to call in and tell us about their favorite movies." Is this a new trend or have I just never noticed it before? Is there someone on some TV show who has started speaking this way? Brian From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Tue Aug 3 09:15:14 1999 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 04:15:14 -0500 Subject: 1)E.P.Hamp; 2)Go(ld) Fish! Message-ID: I might as well throw in two apologies in one message. 1) Re Eric P. Hamp: Sorry, creating "Peter" as Eric's middle name is a family joke, and I forgot where it came from. I have been reminded, forcefully, by Peggy Salovesh, who had the bad luck to marry me a long time ago. I was much luckier: I married her. Once upon a long time ago, Peggy worked with/for Eric Hamp when he was in charge of implementing the linguistics part of CIC. CIC? The Committee on Institutional Cooperation, an arrangement among the Big Ten universities and The University of Chicago. Under CIC, students at any of the eleven universities could arrange to register at their home institutions, paying their normal tuition, while taking courses at one of the others. Consent of both departments, and of the specific professors whose courses or supervision were sought by the non-local student, was a necessary step. Peggy's job included finding out what linguistics courses were housed where at each university, who taught them, what kinds of special knowledge existed among those professors, what special facilities might be available for linguistics work, and the like, and then finding a means of summarizing all the information in a form that would make sense to a student looking for special training and to faculty members trying to figure out what was going on beyond their own campuses. (Yeah, I know. Six-line sentences are a bad idea. I couldn't resist letting the structure of my sentence/paragraph reflect what kind of hectic task the job was.) There was a very strict deadline involved, and a tremendous amount of work to be done as the deadline approached. Peggy and Eric got the job done, copied, and sent where it was supposed to go on time for its Monday deadline -- but they had to recruit their spouses to do it. The last stages sure as hell strained four people in two households that weekend. On Monday, Peggy dragged herself back to her day job as administrative secretary in the office of the Dean of the Humanities Division at the U of Chicago. Bright and early, Eric came bouncing in, brimful of his usual energy. At supper that night, Peggy commented on the contrast: "There I was, all petered out, and Eric actually looked refreshed after all that work over the weekend." I said something about it being obvious that Eric was all petered in, and one thing led to another: ever afterward, Eric was Petered in in our minds. Hence Eric Peter Hamp. I told you, family joke, and my mistake for slipping it into a message to ADS-L. 2) The utter pedantry of what I said about Go(ld) Fish! was self-satire run wild. Worse yet, I did it on purpose. I thought it was hilarious at the time. (That probably is one of the side effects of my new medications.) The only serious part of what I said was the part about the Midwesternness of our family and the fact that we, and our acquaintances, and our kids' friends, called the game "Go fish!", alternating with "Fish". Sorry about that. ========== Talking about "Go(ld) Fish!" last night, Peggy came up with an idea of a possible source. When our kids were quite young, both liked to snack on a kind of cracker called "goldfish" -- which they pronounced "go'fish". As they started to teach themselves to read (before kindergarten), we handed each of them a book whose title I remember as "ABCD Goldfish". It builds on the exchange "ABCD Goldfish?" "LMNO Goldfish!" "OSAR . . . ". Translation, provided because I didn't give one for Shakespeare's "nunnery": "Abie, see the goldfish?" "Hell, them ain't no goldfish!" "Oh, yes they are." I don't remember if the children's book, as such, picked up the LMNO part or left it out. I'm quite sure that in our house we always included it anyhow. When one of our kids came up with "NDC" as the place to CD Goldfish, that line, too, became part of our family tradition. The book made our older son give up his "go'fish" pronunciation, in exchange for a clearly articulated "gold fish" (with double plus juncture, at that.) So maybe calling the card game "Goldfish" could be a case of overgeneralizing the same correction beyond where it would be appropriate. Call it some kind of hyperurbanism or some other artifact of language learning. Could this whole thread be based on what was originally an error becoming a local tradition? -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Tue Aug 3 09:44:04 1999 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 05:44:04 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Erin McKean To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Date: Monday, August 02, 1999 6:44 PM Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting >Anyone else noticing email conventions (like emoticons) dribbling into >handwriting or typescript? You don't have to admit it if you've done it. I >can carry my shame alone. I have done it myself. My completely arbitrary rule of thumb is, if you have more than three email addresses, you may longhand email conventions with impunity. Of course, geek poseur that I am, I did it back when I only had a fidonet address. Bruce From jeclapp at WANS.NET Tue Aug 3 06:24:35 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 02:24:35 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting Message-ID: Laurence Horn wrote: > > But a SIDEways smiley face :) ? I sure wish I could put my hands on the column Dave Barry wrote about emoticons for a computer magazine. He was very enthusiastic about them. For example, he pointed out (and unfortunately I can only paraphrase, but this is my best recollection), that if somebody writes, say, Six million Jews perished in the holocaust :( then by simply rotating the page clockwise a quarter turn you can immediately see that the writer thinks this is a sad thing. James E. Clapp From vneufeldt at M-W.COM Tue Aug 3 12:02:27 1999 From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:02:27 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting In-Reply-To: <0rdWXnO00Ui20791o0@andrew.cmu.edu> Message-ID: Please, WHAT does ':P' mean? Victoria (who has never yet - blush - used an emoticon in her e-mails) Victoria Neufeldt, Merriam-Webster, Inc. 47 Federal Street, P.O. Box 281 Springfield, MA 01102 Tel. (413) 734-3134 ext 124 Fax (413) 827-7262 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Johanna N Franklin > Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 7:26 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Email conventions seeping into handwriting > > > I have seen emoticons, mainly the :) emoticon, being written. > > And I know someone who, upon, realizing that someone is teasing him, > will say "colon p" - the appropriate emoticon to use in that situation. > :P > > Johanna Franklin > > Excerpts from mail: 2-Aug-99 Email conventions seeping i.. by Erin > McKean at VERBATIMMAG. > > > >Anyone else noticing email conventions (like emoticons) dribbling into > >handwriting or typescript? You don't have to admit it if you've > done it. I > >can carry my shame alone. > From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU Tue Aug 3 13:59:54 1999 From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:59:54 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting In-Reply-To: <000101bedda8$0e7efc80$282b62ce@mw040.m-w.com> Message-ID: This is kind of hard to explain. It's meant to look like a person sticking out his or her tongue... It might be used to respond to a teasing remark, e.g. Typist 1: You know, you sitting there and screaming at ESPN's game update online won't help your team win... Typist 2: Hmmmmph. :P Typist 1: :) Johanna, who has had exactly this exchange online before... Excerpts from mail: 3-Aug-99 Re: Email conventions seepi.. by Victoria Neufeldt at M-W.CO > Please, WHAT does ':P' mean? > Excerpts from mail: 3-Aug-99 Re: Email conventions seepi.. by Victoria Neufeldt at M-W.CO >> >> And I know someone who, upon, realizing that someone is teasing him, >> will say "colon p" - the appropriate emoticon to use in that situation. >> :P >> From pulliam at IIT.EDU Tue Aug 3 03:37:52 1999 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 23:37:52 -0400 Subject: iced tea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't > >sell his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. Was the Indian tea merchant named Tada Dhorghani by any chance? Wonder if we might have another Popik-debunkable myth here. - Greg From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Tue Aug 3 17:02:28 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:02:28 -0700 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting Message-ID: Why is it that I live and work amongst a high concentration of computer nerds, particularly of the email variety, and I have never: seen anyone write an email convention by hand, or heard anyone speak an email convention? Who are the folks who are doing this? Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU Tue Aug 3 17:20:05 1999 From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:20:05 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting In-Reply-To: <37A720A4.1CE43C39@eng.sun.com> Message-ID: The ones that I know are mainly engineering and science undergraduates who tend to use e-mail and chat sessions to communicate much more than handwritten communication. It becomes second nature to start writing computer abbreviations and drawing emoticons by hand. That's much more common than speaking e-mail conventions. I don't know very many people who do that. Johanna, who is guilty of both on occasion Excerpts from mail: 3-Aug-99 Re: Email conventions seepi.. by "A. Vine"@ENG.SUN.COM > Why is it that I live and work amongst a high concentration of computer nerds, > > particularly of the email variety, and I have never: > > seen anyone write an email convention by hand, or > heard anyone speak an email convention? > > Who are the folks who are doing this? > From tgebhart at MADISON.K12.WI.US Tue Aug 3 17:25:51 1999 From: tgebhart at MADISON.K12.WI.US (thomas gebhart) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:25:51 -0500 Subject: iced tea Message-ID: I don't know about either ice or iced tea being a "southernism" -- but it doesn't appear to be predominant in my father's family's areas of Alabama. Tea that isn't in a cup and isn't hot is _sweet tea_. When offered "tea" without a qualifier in northern AL or in Montgomery, the question, "Ice(d) tea?" gets you "Yes Ma'am, sweet tea." Beth Simon Assistant Professor, Linguistics and English Indiana University Purdue University simon at ipfw.edu "A. Maberry" wrote: > Not necessarily a southernism. I've always refered to it as "ice tea" and > have always heard it pronounced that way, although I've seen "iced" and > "ice tea" in print, but have no idea which predominates--at least in the > Pacific Northwest. > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu > > On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Jessie Emerson wrote: > > > My gut feeling is that "ice tea" is a southernism, and not something that is > > written very often; i.e., you go into a restaurant and order "ice tea" (the > > d and the t becoming indistinguishable). These same people may write it > > either way, with or without the d. And it seems from Nexis that "iced tea" > > is the predominate written form. > > > > Conversely, if it is a southernism, the d of "iced" is never pronounced, > > even though the speaker may write it with the d. > > > > Jessie > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Barnhart > > To: > > Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 3:11 PM > > Subject: iced tea > > > > > > > My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations > > > there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. > > > > > > > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call > > > iced > > > >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called > > > 'ice' tea > > > >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't > > > sell > > > >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." > > > >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. > > > > > > I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the > > > dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. > > > > > > DAE has only iced tea. > > > DA has only iced tea. > > > WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. > > > OED has no reference to either. > > > OEDs has no reference to either. > > > Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. > > > DARE has no reference to either. > > > AmDiDic has no reference to either. > > > > > > Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea > > > Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. > > > > > > Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution > > > for these two terms? > > > > > > Regards, > > > David K. Barnhart > > > barnhart at highlands.com > > From lmedu at JPS.NET Tue Aug 3 18:23:22 1999 From: lmedu at JPS.NET (Sharon Vaipae) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:23:22 -0700 Subject: iced tea, with milk, please In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>Nobody in this discussion (unless it escaped my notice) brought up the >>parallel with "ice cream". > >Nor has anyone brought up "shave ice" (Hawaii). > >Rima Is "milk tea" elsewhere than Japan? Have English...Will Travel ? The truth shall make you odd. lmedu at jps.net -Flannery O'Conner From jay at DEGRANDIS.COM Tue Aug 3 19:06:06 1999 From: jay at DEGRANDIS.COM (J. M. De Grandis, III) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:06:06 -0400 Subject: Go(ld) Fish! Message-ID: I grew up in central Georgia, where we most definitely said, "Go Fish!" Freinds from North Carolina also use "Go Fish!" as does my fiance (south east MO). Greg Pulliam wrote: > The issue: is the card game > "Go Fish!" as believed fervently by the former, or "Goldfish!" as > embraced just as strongly by the latter? > > I have told them that it is likely that they are both right, but that > I would submit the question to this list for confirmation or denial. > It looks like _Goldfish_ is an eastern phenomenon, while _Go Fish_ is > the midwestern version, but is this really the case? -- Emancipate yourself from mental slavery None but ourselves can free our minds. Uncle Bob Marley J. M. De Grandis, III http://www.degrandis.com/d3 mailto:jay at degrandis.com From dburrell at ICPSR.UMICH.EDU Tue Aug 3 19:33:52 1999 From: dburrell at ICPSR.UMICH.EDU (Dieter Burrell) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:33:52 -0400 Subject: iced tea In-Reply-To: <37A7261F.73600AEF@madison.k12.wi.us> Message-ID: And sweet tea is the default if you do order 'ice tea,' at least in eastern Georgia and western South Carolina. Only if requested could someone possibly receive unsweetened tea. Dieter Burrell ICPSR At 12:25 PM 8/3/1999 -0500, you wrote: >I don't know about either ice or iced tea being a "southernism" -- but it doesn't >appear to be predominant in my father's family's areas of Alabama. Tea that isn't >in a cup and isn't hot is _sweet tea_. When offered "tea" without a qualifier in >northern AL or in Montgomery, the question, "Ice(d) tea?" gets you "Yes Ma'am, >sweet tea." > >Beth Simon >Assistant Professor, Linguistics and English >Indiana University Purdue University >simon at ipfw.edu From GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA Tue Aug 3 22:09:24 1999 From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA (No Name Available) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 15:09:24 PDT Subject: NPR Talk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Terry: Re "resources." Maybe the announcer was an expatriate Canuck - certainly I've never heard (or said) it any other way but /rIzors at s/ with the stress on the second syllable, and that's the first pronunciation given in the Gage Canadian Dictionary (1997), though it's second in Webster. The /risors/ one is third in Gage. Barbara Harris University of Victoria Victoria, B.C. CANADA From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU Tue Aug 3 23:30:42 1999 From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:30:42 -0500 Subject: Jay walking; poetry in ASL? In-Reply-To: <199907261407.KAA06720@is2.nyu.edu> Message-ID: I didn't pull the plug on the group when I went on a July vacation and as a result found a considerable layer of detritus at the bottom of my e-mail basket when I returned. Nothing prompted thoughts worth sharing, except these two topics: As a New Yorker, I jay-walk whenever possible. Crossing at the intersection puts you at risk of sudden death; crossing in the middle of the block gives you some chance of seeing what's coming before it gets you. The idea raised by several in the discussion of this term, that jay-walkers move in a curved or crooked line that can be likened to a J, baffles me. Unless I need to enter or leave the roadway between parked cars -- a situation I avoid, it being nearly as dangerous as crossing at the crosswalk -- I cross the street in a straight line, even if an oblique one to the sidewalk. I go with the standard explanation of the "jay" in jay-walking, but I would not define it as indicating a (generalized) ignorant or stupid person but specifically a bumpkin, a farmer, one who crosses the street as if vehicles in the city travel no faster than hay-wagons. The second point is a question: Some years ago, at a university ceremony, I was seated where I could watch the drivel from the podium being translated into ASL. I wondered at the time whether anyone wrote poetry in ASL, with the dancing movement of the hands serving the function of meter and rhyme in oral poetry. Our president's oration sure looked a lot better than it sounded. Nyone familiar with such poetry? GAT From jeclapp at WANS.NET Tue Aug 3 22:52:12 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:52:12 -0400 Subject: Email conventions seeping into handwriting Message-ID: A. Vine wrote: > > Why is it that I live and work amongst a high concentration of computer > nerds, particularly of the email variety, and I have never: > > seen anyone write an email convention by hand, or > heard anyone speak an email convention? > > Who are the folks who are doing this? I'm still trying to figure out who uses them in e-mail! I have a two part analysis, in which I reach opposite conclusions about the two basic types of e-mail symbolism: 1. Initialisms: The people who use these are people who never learned to type. For a typist, it's quicker and easier to type "in my opinion" than "IMHO," which requires holding down the shift key while typing four unrelated characters. Of course, there's also an in-group feeling among users (*we* know what this means; the uninitiated will just have to wonder). Initialisms drive me--an uninitiate--nuts, because every time I come upon a new one I have to sit there and work out a puzzle just to figure out what somebody might be trying to say. Often I have to e-mail the initialism to someone more knowledgeable for decrypting. And they call this a form of communication? Of course, usually when I get the translation I realize that the coded phrase was just verbiage anyway. On the other hand, to the extent that these become established and say anything worth saying, the one place that they could actually be useful is in handwritten notes. Not that there are very many of those, anymore; but if, hypothetically, I were writing a note by hand, and, even more hypothetically, thought it necessary to say "in my humble opinion," it'd be easier to write IMHO. 2. Emoticons Of course, Dave Barry got it right: If you know how to write, you generally don't have to use an icon to make it clear how you feel. That's what the writing is for. Several aspects of e-mail, however, make it vulnerable to misunderstanding: It is often off-the-cuff, too brief for nuance, and sent to people who know absolutely nothing about the writer. So as ditzy as emoticons are, they can actually play a useful prophylactic role in e-mail--though I myself still eschew them. No matter how clearly, wildly outrageous you think your comment is, somebody out there will take you seriously if you don't flag it with an emoticon or a -- although this list, which is far more sophisticated than others I'm on, may be an exception: I'm not sure anyone on this list would have taken seriously, as many elsewhere did, the hilarious story being passed around that Microsoft is going to start selling ad space on its error messages. But the features that make such flags useful in anonymous e-mail are seldom present in individual typed or handwritten messages. Most such notes are written to people who know enough about where we stand on the issue being discussed so that we don't have to tip them off about whether we're serious or not. So it is really hard to see why anybody would use them outside of a bulk e-mail context, save as a modish or in-groupy thing to do. James E. Clapp P.S. about this list: I think it significant that emoticons and voguish initialisms are seldom seen here; when you have a group of people who are good with language, they tend to prefer meaningful words to faddish formulas and don't generally have to worry about being misunderstood (not that it can't happen on occasion). I imagine this is typical of lists that attract a lot of academics. Most of the lists I'm on are for lawyers and computer people, and boy, it's a different world out there! P.S. about the world out there, and how easily you can be misunderstood: On one of my lists somebody posted the old saw about the lawyer's child who said his father played the piano in a brothel because he didn't want to admit what his father really did. (To make it clear that the posting was intended for amusement and not an expression of malice toward lawyers, the poster put a after it.) Somebody replied, "So tell us, what did he really do in a brothel?" A fairly clever joke on a joke, right? But I guess he should have included a winking or grinning emoticon, because somebody then wrote in to explain the original posting to him: It was a joke, see; the father wasn't *really* in a brothel, he was *really* a lawyer; the kid just *said* he worked in a brothel because [etc.]. (The explanation concluded: "Kudos to whomever the original poster was.") The person who (or should I say whom) had posted the joke on the joke finally wrote back and said (either forlornly or wryly--I couldn't tell which because there was no emoticon), "That was a joke, too, but some didn't get it, I guess." From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Wed Aug 4 00:24:01 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:24:01 -0400 Subject: Jay walking; poetry in ASL? Message-ID: On mardi 3 ao?t 1999, GEORGE THOMPSON wrote: > As a New Yorker, I jay-walk whenever possible. Crossing at the >intersection puts you at risk of sudden death; crossing in the >middle of the block gives you some chance of seeing what's coming >before it gets you. The idea raised by several in the discussion of >this term, that jay-walkers move in a curved or crooked line that can >be likened to a J, baffles me. Unless I need to enter or leave the >roadway between parked cars -- a situation I avoid, it being nearly >as dangerous as crossing at the crosswalk -- I cross the street in a >straight line, even if an oblique one to the sidewalk. Now then, Mr. Thompson. I do hope you'll pardon me, but as a fellow New Yorker, I find that I do cross the street in the form of a J, although I have some doubts about its status as etymological evidence. Here's how it happens: You're in a hurry. You're just past the middle of the block, probably on a wide one-way avenue, probably walking downstream with traffic. (Nobody ever does a true J on a some rinky-dink lane). You have to cross the street, but the crosswalk says Walk before you get there. So you step off the curb, not quite to the corner, not quite in the middle of the block. You begin traversing, but cars that have turned off the cross street are now headed your way. Your life is in danger. You walk just a little faster, but a little taller, too, and you puff out your chest. It's the ostrich effect: you'll look like a bigger animal to the oncoming yellow beasts and maybe they won't attack. You, however, are forced to bend your straight path: the cars that have stampeded past are now in the way. The only easily available path is the crosswalk: except for a little impatient encroaching by revving motorists, it is wide open. You have accomplished your goals: crossed without waiting for another signal, and made a shorter path than a right angle. From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 4 01:37:35 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 18:37:35 PDT Subject: Canuck Message-ID: >From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA >Terry: >Re "resources." Maybe the announcer was an expatriate Canuck - The AHD has "Offensive Slang. A Canadian, esp. a French Canadian", so I was a bit surprised to see the more generic use here, esp. since in matters of English pronunciation the French Canucks differ noticeably from the rest. Could Barbara Harris, or anyone else, give their thoughts on the current use(s) of the term? (besides "esp. a French", there's the apparent overstatement "offensive slang") And what about improving on the AHD's etymology: "prob. alteration of 'Canadian'"? DEJ P.S. Random House has "Slang (sometimes offensive)", then word-for-word the same definition as AHD, then the rather wondrous etymology "1825-35; perh. ult. to be identified with _kanaka_ 'Hawaiian, South Sea Islander' [literally Hawaiian for 'person'], since both French Canadians and such islanders were employed in the Pacific Northwest fur trade; later reanalyzed as Can[adian] + a suffix" Is it just me, or is that a bit farfetched (literally)? The AHD explanation seems more prob. than the RH's. (Or perh. it's an alteration of the French 'Canadien' -- but only if French Canadians used that word in the early 19th century) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From dsgood at VISI.COM Wed Aug 4 03:59:25 1999 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 22:59:25 -0500 Subject: "coming with" in San Francisco Message-ID: I was reading a mystery set in San Francisco, and came across the dialog "I'm coming with." Which was not what I would expect a middle-class African-American woman in San Francisco to say. The author has lived and worked in San Francisco, and seems to be generally a careful observer. Recently, I learned that the author was born in Minnesota. I suspect he grew up with "coming with", and didn't remember that it's not as natural to San Franciscans as it is to him. Writers who set their fiction in their adopted homes probably make such mistakes _much_ more often than I've noticed. Dan Goodman dsgood at visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Wed Aug 4 07:14:19 1999 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 02:14:19 -0500 Subject: "coming with" in San Francisco Message-ID: Dan Goodman wrote: > Writers who set their fiction in their adopted homes probably make > such mistakes _much_ more often than I've noticed. The problem came up a couple of years ago, at what otherwise was one of the most enjoyable dissertation defenses I've attended. On the way to her doctorate in English, the candidate had done two magnificent jobs. The first was translating _Native Son_ into colloquial Brazilian Portugese. The second task she undertook in the dissertation was to show how Richard Wright represents ways a single black speaker marks, and manipulates, interactions with whites compared with how the same speaker talks black-to-black. This led her to an interesting discussion of the problems facing a translator who wants to convey these subtleties in a language which has dialects that mark social class/social position, but very little dialect variation marking so-called "race". She wrote a beautiful dissertation and did an impressive job all around. I was there as Dean's representative. Our Graduate Dean had asked me to read the dissertation and serve as outside examiner at the defense because I read Portugese and know something about linguistics and translation problems. He didn't realize that I had other relevant knowledge: _Native Son_ is set on Chicago's South Side, and Bigger Thomas kills Mary Dalton at her home in Hyde Park. That's the neighborhood where I grew up. My knowledge of the local scene gave me an excellent chance for pedantic nit-picking that wouldn't raise any substantial problems for the candidate. I took it. I wanted this excellent student to get her degree with the honors her work deserved, and I didn't want to get in her way with anything that might sound like an objection. Without realizing it, I just happened to pick on one of the ways _Native Son_ shows that Wright didn't really know much about Chicago when he wrote the book. I thought it was safe to point to what I thought was a typsetting error in the translation to Portugese, where a Chicago street is called "South Parkway". It's clear that should have been "South Park Way", a subtle but extremely important difference. In the time setting of the novel, South Park Way was the main drag of the South Side extension of Bronzeville, the Chicago black ghetto. Among other things, it was the home of the old Regal Theater, where you went to hear all the great black bands and orchestras, from Duke Ellington to Louis Jordan. When I was growing up, shows at the Regal also featured Redd Foxx, Moms Mabley, Pigmeat Markham, and other legendary performers, but I used to go there to hear the great jazz. The name of the street was always pronounced with juncture marking that it contained three separate words. Nobody who spent any time on that street could possibly have called it "South Parkway", in two words. There was a two word abbreviation, all right, but it was "South Park". At the dissertation defense, the candidate said that she didn't know the street, but she was sure that the book called it South Parkway. That gave everybody a chance to look at something in English, instead of the Portugese translation we were discussing at the time. Sure enough, it was South Parkway in three different editions people had brought with them that day. Score one for the accuracy of the translation, and one down for the picky pedant. (When I read the dissertation, I had checked the translation against a paperback edition -- which had South Parkway. I simply assumed that other editions would have the correct name in three words.) My scholarly reputation was saved by the few old Chicagoans in the room. They confirmed that South Park Way, in THREE short words, was the former name of what is now officially called "The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Memorial Drive". (It has the only street signs in Chicago that need both fine print and several lines to get in the whole name of the street. The short, colloquial version is "King Drive", which appears on signs saying things like "King Drive exit, 3/4 mile".) Only old-timers remember South Park Way today. Obviously, Richard Wright was not a Chicago old-timer when _Native Son_ was published in 1940. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From rwachal at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Wed Aug 4 11:28:52 1999 From: rwachal at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (wachal robert s) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 06:28:52 -0500 Subject: "coming with" in San Francisco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've lived in Minnesoata and it is certainly common there. it's a loan translation from German or a Scandinavian language and hardly likely for someone from SF regardless of race. Bob Wachal On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Dan Goodman wrote: > I was reading a mystery set in San Francisco, and came across the > dialog "I'm coming with." Which was not what I would expect a > middle-class African-American woman in San Francisco to say. The > author has lived and worked in San Francisco, and seems to be > generally a careful observer. > > Recently, I learned that the author was born in Minnesota. I suspect > he grew up with "coming with", and didn't remember that it's not as > natural to San Franciscans as it is to him. > > Writers who set their fiction in their adopted homes probably make > such mistakes _much_ more often than I've noticed. > > Dan Goodman > dsgood at visi.com > http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html > Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. > From rwachal at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Wed Aug 4 11:27:11 1999 From: rwachal at BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU (wachal robert s) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 06:27:11 -0500 Subject: Canuck In-Reply-To: <19990804013736.90112.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: As i pointed out in a paper I cave at DSNA and which soon may be published, 'Canuck' is not in the least offensive, as Canadian linguists and lay folk have told me. Note the hockey team , the Vancouver Canucks. When PC became a hot button issue, dictionary makers went wholesale calling every nickname offensive apparently without checking the facts. Bob Wachal On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, D. Ezra Johnson wrote: > >From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA > >Terry: > >Re "resources." Maybe the announcer was an expatriate Canuck - > > The AHD has "Offensive Slang. A Canadian, esp. a French Canadian", > so I was a bit surprised to see the more generic use here, esp. since in > matters of English pronunciation the French Canucks differ noticeably from > the rest. > > Could Barbara Harris, or anyone else, give their thoughts on the current > use(s) of the term? (besides "esp. a French", there's the apparent > overstatement "offensive slang") > > And what about improving on the AHD's etymology: "prob. alteration of > 'Canadian'"? > > DEJ > > P.S. Random House has "Slang (sometimes offensive)", then word-for-word the > same definition as AHD, then the rather wondrous etymology > > "1825-35; perh. ult. to be identified with _kanaka_ 'Hawaiian, South Sea > Islander' [literally Hawaiian for 'person'], since both French Canadians and > such islanders were employed in the Pacific Northwest fur trade; later > reanalyzed as Can[adian] + a suffix" > > Is it just me, or is that a bit farfetched (literally)? > The AHD explanation seems more prob. than the RH's. > > (Or perh. it's an alteration of the French 'Canadien' -- but only if French > Canadians used that word in the early 19th century) > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > From jrader at M-W.COM Wed Aug 4 10:04:17 1999 From: jrader at M-W.COM (Jim Rader) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:04:17 +0000 Subject: Canuck Message-ID: The etymology was proposed and quite ably defended by James Sledd in AS 53:3 (Fall, 1978), pp. 176-78. I don't think it's all that farfetched--at least French accounts for the phonetics, unlike the "alteration of Canadian" or "alteration of , with a handwaving dismissal of the unexplained truncation and the peculiar termination <-uck>. What's your explanation for these, Mr. Johnson? At any rate, "perhaps" in an etymology, at least at Merriam, marks 50% or less confidence. is a hypothesis, not a statement of fact. Jim Rader > > And what about improving on the AHD's etymology: "prob. alteration of > 'Canadian'"? > > DEJ > > P.S. Random House has "Slang (sometimes offensive)", then word-for-word the > same definition as AHD, then the rather wondrous etymology > > "1825-35; perh. ult. to be identified with _kanaka_ 'Hawaiian, South Sea > Islander' [literally Hawaiian for 'person'], since both French Canadians and > such islanders were employed in the Pacific Northwest fur trade; later > reanalyzed as Can[adian] + a suffix" > > Is it just me, or is that a bit farfetched (literally)? > The AHD explanation seems more prob. than the RH's. > > (Or perh. it's an alteration of the French 'Canadien' -- but only if French > Canadians used that word in the early 19th century) > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > From mkuha at INDIANA.EDU Wed Aug 4 15:43:33 1999 From: mkuha at INDIANA.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:43:33 -0500 Subject: As many (as possible) In-Reply-To: <37A68AED.970C6FB8@pacbell.net> Message-ID: I don't have access to sources where I could check this right now, but isn't this a fairly normal phenomenon in various varieties of World Englishes? I seem to remember having seen it in Kenyan English, anyway. If so, this could point us to some nice functional motivation that might apply to native speakers of American English as well. -Mai On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Brian Good wrote: > I don't recall ever hearing or seeing this omission before, but now I > have come across it three times in the past month or so. The speaker > says "as many" while leaving off the "as possible" part. It really > sticks out for me because it sort of grates on my nerves.... I'm left to > complete the "as possible" in my head. Here's where I've heard/seen it: > > McSweeney's Internet Tendency, "Four Dreams of Gergen," by Paul > Maliszewski: > http://www.mcsweeneys.net/1999/06/14dreams.html > "...Lewis Lapham appears. He says, Provide as many correct and > acceptable spellings of the leader of Libya." > > On a plane before takeoff (repeated twice!): > "In order to help conserve overhead bin space, please put as many bags > under the seat in front of you." > > On a radio station in Seattle: > "We're trying to get as many people to call in and tell us about > their favorite movies." > > Is this a new trend or have I just never noticed it before? Is there > someone on some TV show who has started speaking this way? > > Brian > ..................................................... Mai Kuha mkuha at indiana.edu From mkuha at INDIANA.EDU Wed Aug 4 15:47:23 1999 From: mkuha at INDIANA.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:47:23 -0500 Subject: Grant (in NY?) Message-ID: So, are we all anxiously anticipating this new movie in which Hugh Grant's character struggles to acquire a second dialect, only to be told at the end: "You sound funny?"? -Mai ..................................................... Mai Kuha mkuha at indiana.edu From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Wed Aug 4 16:32:37 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:32:37 -0400 Subject: Grant (in NY?) Message-ID: Foo. I saw that subject header and thought it was about me. Grant (in New York) From mkuha at INDIANA.EDU Wed Aug 4 16:51:22 1999 From: mkuha at INDIANA.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 11:51:22 -0500 Subject: Grant (in NY?) In-Reply-To: <-1278352544gbarrett@americandialect.org> Message-ID: Oh, you sound funny too? -Mai (almost in transit from Bloomington to Muncie) On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Grant Barrett wrote: > Foo. I saw that subject header and thought it was about me. > > Grant > (in New York) From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Wed Aug 4 16:57:00 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:57:00 -0400 Subject: Clue Stick, Clue Train Message-ID: These are popping up all over, related to people "getting a clue." Not all that new, I think: they've been on my radar for perhaps a year. You might say,"Get on board the clue train, jerk" to someone who hasn't a clue what they're doing or maybe talking about, although it seems to usually be used in the third person: "He needs to climb aboard the clue train." You might also say "That boy needs to be hit with a clue stick" to someone who doesn't have a clue. Maybe there's a relationship to "ugly stick." Searches on the Internet turn up lots and lots of uses. From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Wed Aug 4 18:10:26 1999 From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:10:26 -0400 Subject: Clue Stick, Clue Train In-Reply-To: <-1278351079gbarrett@americandialect.org> Message-ID: At 12:57 PM 8/4/99 , Grant Barrett wrote: >These are popping up all over, related to people "getting a clue." Not all >that new, I think: they've been on my radar for perhaps a year. >You might say,"Get on board the clue train, jerk" to someone who hasn't a >clue what they're doing or maybe talking about, although it seems to >usually be used in the third person: "He needs to climb aboard the clue train." > >You might also say "That boy needs to be hit with a clue stick" to someone >who doesn't have a clue. Maybe there's a relationship to "ugly stick." > >Searches on the Internet turn up lots and lots of uses. On AFU (alt.folklore.urban) four or five years ago, it wasn't unusual to see one of the Old Hats advise a newbie, "The clue phone is ringing -- better answer it." -- Evan Morris words1 at word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Wed Aug 4 18:23:05 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:23:05 -0400 Subject: Clue Stick, Clue Train Message-ID: The earliest Deja News results I could find was this full-fledged utilization of clue anything. It uses "clue by four," my favorite. >From the rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5 forum at http://x40.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=118318148&CONTEXT=933790608.875298834&hitnum=0 "Nia was talking about jms's writing style this evening, I tried to get her to make a post on it, but she didn't want to, and it's relevant to this post, so...? I'll see if I can give it justice. ? "First jms jumps out in front of you says "The clue train leaves in an hour", and hands you a clue card.? On the front it says J. Michael Straczynski, you turn it over and it says in small letters 'a clue'. jms runs off into the shadows again. ? "Presently you find yourself at the clue train station, jms runs out again, presses a clue train token into your hand, and bodily throws you on the clue train. "After riding the train for awhile, jms comes down the isle dressed as a conductor, he takes your clue token, and then whips out his clue by four and bashes you senseless with it.? He then says "Next stop, the clue hospital". "You wake up, and find yourself on a operating table.? Then you notice you're Sheridan.? jms appears in surgical scrubs, cuts you open, and inserts the clue forcefully into your body. "(but, being Sheridan.... you still don't get it)." ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/quickmail Size: 2300 bytes Desc: not available URL: From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Wed Aug 4 18:40:49 1999 From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:40:49 -0400 Subject: Grant (in NY?) Message-ID: Are you talking about the soon to be released mobster comedy MICKEY BLUE EYES? Mai Kuha wrote: > So, are we all anxiously anticipating this new movie in which Hugh Grant's > character struggles to acquire a second dialect, only to be told at the > end: "You sound funny?"? -- Bob Haas Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK Wed Aug 4 19:14:33 1999 From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron Drews) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:14:33 +0100 Subject: Grant (in NY?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Mai Kuha wrote: }So, are we all anxiously anticipating this new movie in which Hugh Grant's }character struggles to acquire a second dialect, only to be told at the }end: "You sound funny?"? I could very easily pass up a Hugh Grant movie. I think Gweneth Paltrow could play that kind of part very well. (Please bear in mind that I have no idea what this new movie is about). As one who is spending an awful lot of time in a library researching second dialect acquisition, the "you sound funny" is right. I'm easily picked up for an American here, but in the U.S., everyone says I sound Scottish (which offends my fiancee to no end). Many young expatriates (to read "some of my subjects that have made a trans-Atlantic move") have a "no-man's land" Mid-Atlantic dialect. Also some English folk that have moved here, or some Scots that have spent a lot of time in England also "sound funny". Semi-rhoticity sounds really funny.... and it provides lots of thesis fodder! --Aaron ======================================================================= Aaron E. Drews The University of Edinburgh +44 (0)131 650-3485 Departments of English Language http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron and Linguistics "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF" --Death From mrudge at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Aug 4 20:21:20 1999 From: mrudge at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (M. Rudge) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:21:20 -0700 Subject: tenderoni Message-ID: I was wondering if anyone new the defenition or origin of the word tenderoni. I've checked several slang dictionaries and surfed the internet in search of the answer and i've been unsuccessful. My first encounter with this word was in the Micheal Jackson song PYT from his Thriller album. I know that's taking us a few years back but I know the word is still in use today. Thanks in advance. Michelle From djtt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Aug 4 20:32:54 1999 From: djtt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Netz) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:32:54 -0700 Subject: funny phrase Message-ID: Can anybody tell me the origin of the phrase 'in like flin'? or is it 'in like flynn'--like Errol Flynn? --jennifer netz From djtt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Wed Aug 4 20:33:36 1999 From: djtt at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Netz) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:33:36 -0700 Subject: tenderoni In-Reply-To: Message-ID: not really, but that michael jackson! From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET Wed Aug 4 23:53:50 1999 From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:53:50 -0700 Subject: Jay walking; poetry in ASL? Message-ID: GEORGE THOMPSON wrote: > I wondered at the time whether anyone wrote poetry in ASL, with the dancing > movement of the hands serving the function of meter and rhyme in oral > poetry. Our president's oration sure looked a lot better than it sounded. > Nyone familiar > with such poetry? > Don't know if anyone writes poetry in ASL. But my oldest son (while he was between 35 and 40) learned ASL in a two-year, associate degree, program at Lansing, MI Community College. He does interpretation of all kinds including classroom interpreting for student-clients. At one time he interpreted for a singing group that performed for hearing impaired and deaf audiences. They called themselves "The Sounds of Silence". It is a whole different world. Bob From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Wed Aug 4 22:34:28 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:34:28 -0400 Subject: email conventions Message-ID: LJT777 at AOL.COM writes: >>> My sense is that using the smiling face to indicate humor predates the "emoticon" by quite some time. At least I have used it in lieu of something lame like "ha ha" for a number of years. I recently found myself saying BRB to someone who is also very familiar with internet jargon, abbreviations, etc. As I said it, we looked at each other and grimaced! <<< What's BRB? I suspect that a lot of these are specific to some subcultures of the 'Net culture... although, for obvious reasons, I can't easily come up with a list of netisms that are used in contexts (newsgroups, lists; chats and IRC channels, if I used any, which I don't; etc.) that I frequent but not in others. Except for one likely candidate: ttto, "to the tune of", is widely used on rec.music.filk, which is devoted to the music of the sf/fantasy fan community, in which many of the songs we write [though by no means all] either are parodies of other songs or simply recycle other songs' music. -- Mark From LJT777 at AOL.COM Wed Aug 4 22:46:18 1999 From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (Lindsie Tucker) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:46:18 EDT Subject: email conventions Message-ID: BRB means be right back. From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Wed Aug 4 22:51:41 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:51:41 -0400 Subject: email conventions Message-ID: I passed Erin's comment on to several co-workers, and attach their remarks by permission: -- Mark Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc. : 617 796-0267 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ (speaking for myself) <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rachel Silverman 08/04/99 06:39 PM Well, I've put smileys in, though I usually turn them right way 'round. And when I was a professional proofreader, I'd occasionally use a curly underline (in proofreading for publishing, this indicates the text should be boldface). But the worst is the Pilot-influenced handwriting things... doing "v"s backwards or not putting a crossbar in an "A", for instance. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan Gilbert 08/04/99 06:34 PM I must admit I have written ":-)" (yes, sideways like that) in handwritten notes to people ... and probably used abbreviations such as BTW, FWIW, etc. Oh the shame. But I do still tend to underline for emphasis, rather than drawing asterisks ... From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Wed Aug 4 23:02:10 1999 From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 19:02:10 -0400 Subject: funny phrase Message-ID: It was the latter, in reference to the film star and his notorious lifestyle. I understand that the phrase became popular following charges of statutory rape against Flynn in the early fifties; the two counts were subsequently dropped. I'm fairly certain about the facts here, but not quite sure of the date of the rape charges. "J. Netz" wrote: > Can anybody tell me the origin of the phrase 'in like flin'? or is it > 'in like flynn'--like Errol Flynn? > > --jennifer netz -- Bob Haas Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 5 01:22:33 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 21:22:33 EDT Subject: Listening tour; In like Flynn Message-ID: LISTENING TOUR Hillary Clinton is on a "listening tour" of New York State. I wrote to her with a problem she could have solved--and got a form letter that didn't listen to anything I said. "Listening tour" is on the Dow Jones database from about 1983--anyone have earlier? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- IN LIKE FLYNN (continued) I posted new information on "In Like Flynn" here about a month ago. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LONG ISLAND ICED TEA (continued) I wrote to "Ask Dan" of the Hampton-based DAN'S PAPERS about the origin of "Long Island iced tea." (Several people have told me that they first heard of "Long Island iced tea" in the Hamptons.) There was no reply. He's on the web--you try him. My e-mails don't seem to go through to anybody lately. From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 5 03:46:03 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 20:46:03 PDT Subject: Vancouver Canucks, New York Yankees, Washington Redskins Message-ID: I shouldn't have sounded so skeptical about the "kanaka" story. I was just hoping someone would contribute some of the evidence for such a hypothesis. By the way, the dictionary didn't say it came into English through a French form "canaque". Without that piece of information, I was having trouble understanding just who in the Pacific Northwest was calling French fur traders by the Hawaiian word for 'person', and why. If the word comes through French, as Jim Rader implies, then it's more like the French fur traders got friendly with the Pacific Islander fur traders, and picked up the word as slang... But does anyone know if "Canaque" has (or ever had) currency in Canadian French? Maybe it is like "Yankee" in that it's generally non-offensive, there is a sports team with the name, but at certain times and as used by certain other groups, it is or has been a term of disparagement. DEJ _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Aug 5 04:05:37 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 21:05:37 PDT Subject: French 'canaque' Message-ID: I should specify: does or did the French word 'canaque' have currency with the meaning '[French] Canadian' rather than 'Pacific Islander'? That would seem to be a requisite link in this chain. Or perhaps someone with the 1978 volume of American Speech at hand could sketch Sledd's argument, if I'm totally missing something... DEJ _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From faber at LENNY.HASKINS.YALE.EDU Thu Aug 5 04:32:57 1999 From: faber at LENNY.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 00:32:57 -0400 Subject: clues Message-ID: Evan Morris wrote: > > At 12:57 PM 8/4/99 , Grant Barrett wrote: > > >These are popping up all over, related to people "getting a clue." Not all > >that new, I think: they've been on my radar for perhaps a year. > >You might say,"Get on board the clue train, jerk" to someone who hasn't a > >clue what they're doing or maybe talking about, although it seems to > >usually be used in the third person: "He needs to climb aboard the clue train." > > > >You might also say "That boy needs to be hit with a clue stick" to someone > >who doesn't have a clue. Maybe there's a relationship to "ugly stick." > > > >Searches on the Internet turn up lots and lots of uses. > > On AFU (alt.folklore.urban) four or five years ago, it wasn't unusual to > see one of the Old Hats advise a newbie, "The clue phone is ringing -- > better answer it." Yup. Those were the days. Now we just whup 'em upside the head with a clue-by-four. Alice Faber afu irregular From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Thu Aug 5 07:39:44 1999 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 02:39:44 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: internet jargon in European languages] Message-ID: Through some button-pushing confusion, this message was sent to me when it should have gone to the list. Sounds like an interesting reference! -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! -------- Original Message -------- From: GEORGE THOMPSON Subject: Re: internet jargon in European languages Some of you folks may be interested in a four-page chart comparing internet jargon in German, French, Italian, Portuguese and Spanish. It's on pp. 113-116 of Romanistik im Internet: Eine praktische Einfuhrung, Bonn: Romanistichser Verlag, 1999. Only French refuses to adopt "browser", but accepts "e-mail" and "surfer", though offering a French alternative; Italian and Spanish, it seems, have turned down "surf", though Italian accepts "mailing list" and "home page". Germans "ausloggen" but they also "uploaden". GAT From mkuha at INDIANA.EDU Thu Aug 5 13:17:14 1999 From: mkuha at INDIANA.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:17:14 -0500 Subject: Grant (in NY?) In-Reply-To: <37A88931.68095C4B@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: Somehow I've managed not to remember the title, but from your description I'm pretty sure that's it. -Mai On Wed, 4 Aug 1999, Bob Haas wrote: > Are you talking about the soon to be released mobster comedy MICKEY BLUE > EYES? > > Mai Kuha wrote: > > > So, are we all anxiously anticipating this new movie in which Hugh Grant's > > character struggles to acquire a second dialect, only to be told at the > > end: "You sound funny?"? > > -- > > Bob Haas > Department of English > University of North Carolina at Greensboro > > "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" > ..................................................... Mai Kuha mkuha at indiana.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 5 13:30:46 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:30:46 EDT Subject: Carpetbaggers; Canuck; FIlibuster Message-ID: CARPETBAGGERS (continued) There are two undated "carpetbaggers" that came up on a computer search. One is this serial with a very long title: Rutter's political quarterly devoted to unearthing the sanctimonious political rats of the South, exposing radical scallawags & carpetbaggers, biographical sketches of the reconstruction destructionists with pleasing pictures behind the scenes in the reconstruction conspiracy, with a refreshing history of the radical "frauds" & "deadbeats" in the South, and their connection with the government tinkers at Washington. It's probably from 1869-1871. The University of Tennessee is one of only two libraries that has it--maybe some slang researcher there will look at it. Also undated is a broadside, 21 x 15 cm., titled: "The rejected carpet bagger." Only the Brown University library has it. The alternate title is "As Pluto sat musing on radical woe, by Benajah Muggins, the Button Town bard." One subject is Thaddeus Stevens (1792-1868). The date is listed as "? 1865-1869." Of possible interest to "carpetbagger" is the play THE MAN WITH THE CARPET BAG, A FARCE IN ONE ACT, by Gilbert Abbott a Beckett (1811-1856). The play was first performed at London's Royal Victoria Theatre, September 29, 1834. Historical Newspapers Online shows that the New York Times did editorials on the carpetbagger on 4 September 1872 and 15 November 1872. There's also this: Lincoln, President--Witnesses for the Prosecution: Roch, Charles H.: Spangler's Carpet Bag (Political) 20 May 1865 (Page 1 col 2) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CANUCK (continued) I did a VERY long posting of Canuck citations here over a year ago. Add to that these hits from Accessible Archives: August 30, 1849 THE NATIONAL ERA September 15, 1855 PROVINCIAL FREEMAN ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FILIBUSTER BDE has "filibuster" from 1855. Accessible Archives has it in the FREDERICK DOUGLASS PAPERS, Item #26582, 6 November 1851: If there is a new Filibuster expedition against Cuba or any other foreign possessions got up five or six years hence you might safely bet on his being in it.--Tribune. The Making of America database has filibuster(s)/fillibuster(s)/filibustering for 1852-1854; one article from 1854 is titled "Cuba as It Is in 1854." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 5 13:30:43 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:30:43 EDT Subject: "Monkey" & "Come off the roof" (1883 article) Message-ID: If you get enough monkeys typing, one of them will write like Shakespeare. I don't know who first said this, but I came across the NEW YORK SUN, 7 January 1917, pg. 11, "AT SEVENTY DR. GARNER GOES AGAIN TO LIVE AMONG APES." There is a photo with the caption: "POLLY, A CHIMPANZEE, LIKES TO RUN A TYPEWRITER." Col. 6 has: Polly is a typist. The paper must be put in place for her; then she pounds the keys. When the bell rings she knows it is time to stop and looks around for some one to move the carrier back for her. If no one comes at once she rattles the machine impatiently. This interesting slang article came up using Historical Newspapers Online. From the NEW YORK TIMES, 26 August 1883, pg. 6, col. 5: _SLANG_ Stupid and silly slang, like everything else that is stupid and silly, is unpardonable, but slang that is at once picturesque and expressive need not be wholly condemned. All new forms of expression are virtually slang, and if they are really meritorious they become, by grace of years, legitimate language. A very large proportion of what is now good English was at one time slang. When Mr. JOHN SULLIVAN boasts that he can "get away with" any rival pugilist, he is using the slang of the prize-ring, but when Mr. TILDEN remarks that he can "circumvent" a political rival he is using a legitimate English word. And yet "to circumvent" a man was, when the expression was new, as unmistakably slang as "to get away with" a man is to-day. All languages have been expanded and enriched by slang, and it would not be too much to say that all figurative speech consists of authorized or of unauthorized slang. The verb "to monkey," which is only a year or two old, and is as yet pure slang, is evidently to become in course of time a legitimate expression. "To monkey" is a neuter verb, though if converted into French it would undoubtedly take the reflexive form--_se singer_. Its primary meaning is to busy one's self in ways other than utilitarian. The amateur painter, or musician, "monkeys" with art, and the political theorist who invents impracticable reforms may be said "to monkey" with politics. The verb is occasionally used as a synonym for the expression "to busy one's self" with anything, but it cannot be legitimately used of honest, useful work, except when such work is either badly done or is undertaken as a recreation rather than as a legitimate business. Who invented the verb "to monkey" will probably never be known, but the inventor "monkeyed" with the English language better than he knew. The word is so full of meaning, and differs by such delicate and subtle shades from the legitimate words most closely related to it in meaning, that it will win its place in the ranks of grave and regular language. Already it has ascended from the sidewalk and is met with growing frequency--though as yet clad in quotation marks--in the columns of newspapers. Our descendants will use it without a thought of impropriety, and the grave historian who may write two hundred years hence of the present period in American history will tell his readers how Mr. BLAINE "monkeyed" with South American affairs and how Mr. GOULD made an enormous fortune by "monkeying" with railroad stocks. A still more recent example of slang is the ironical request of the street boy to a conceited and boastful opponent to "come off the roof." (RHHDAS has 1885 for "come off" and "come off your perch"--ed.) The request needs no explanation. It is vivid and picturesque. The world is full of men who might properly be requested to "come off the roof." When Democratic leaders insist that the Government must be administered honestly, or when GOV. BUTLER poses as a reformer, it is time to tell them to "come off the roof" and to descend to their true level. There is a field of study offered to the philologist in current slang which is worth cultivation. THe slang of the street is to a large extent the language of the future. It is the survival of the fittest of slang words and expressions that makes language. The philologist who will lay aside his dignity, "come off the roof," and "monkey" with slang will find himself abundantly repaid. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Aug 5 13:44:08 1999 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:44:08 -0400 Subject: Fwd: druthers Message-ID: Since Mark, our designated forwarder of relevant Linguist List queries, hasn't gotten around to it yet, I thought I'd step in and forward this one. The reanalysis of [I'd rather]>[druther(s)] is the sort of thing that there must be intermediate evidence for, and early cites would no doubt be of interest. Replies, as usual, should go to the querier as well as (optionally) to us. > >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155. Mon Aug 2 1999. ISSN: 1068-4875. > >Subject: 10.1155, Qs: Descriptive Grammars, druthers, Verbs/Serbian >... >-------------------------------- Message 2 ------------------------------- > >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 14:55:51 GMT >From: alex at compapp.dcu.ie (Alex Monaghan CA) >Subject: druthers > >does anyone have an account of how "i would rather" formed "druthers" in US >english? or is there a different derivation? the change from gapped clause to >declinable noun seems unusual to say the least. > >comments welcome, > alex. > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >... >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155 > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 5 13:56:39 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:56:39 EDT Subject: druthers Message-ID: I did a "druthers" posting here in December 1997. I traced "I'd druther" to the AMERICAN TURF REGISTER, September 1833. The Making of America database does not have "druthers." It has "druther," with the earliest from 1857. From dumasb at UTK.EDU Thu Aug 5 13:48:26 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:48:26 -0400 Subject: druthers Message-ID: I have a lengthy essay on "would rather" (and "rather" as a verb) that I will dig out next week when I am back in Knoxville. It contains several cites. Bethany From gsmith at EWU.EDU Thu Aug 5 17:58:28 1999 From: gsmith at EWU.EDU (Grant Smith) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:58:28 -0800 Subject: Canuck Message-ID: I meant to send this message to the list originally. As usual, Barry's work was thorough and very good. >Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 10:04:41 -0800 >To: jrader at m-w.com >From: Grant Smith >Subject: Re: Canuck >Cc: >Bcc: >X-Attachments: > >Barry Popik traced the uses of this term in 1997 in detailed contributions >to this list (see archives) and in a paper presented at the American Name >Society meeting in Toronto (Dec. 28). Several Canadian newspapers covered >his presentation and made the story available to AP (but I did not hear if >other newspapers printed it). > >>The etymology was proposed and quite ably defended by James >>Sledd in AS 53:3 (Fall, 1978), pp. 176-78. I don't think it's all >>that farfetched--at least French accounts for the >>phonetics, unlike the "alteration of Canadian" or "alteration of >>, with a handwaving dismissal of the unexplained truncation >>and the peculiar termination <-uck>. What's your explanation for >>these, Mr. Johnson? At any rate, "perhaps" in an etymology, at least >>at Merriam, marks 50% or less confidence. is a hypothesis, >>not a statement of fact. >> >>Jim Rader >> >>> >>> And what about improving on the AHD's etymology: "prob. alteration of >>> 'Canadian'"? >>> >>> DEJ >>> >>> P.S. Random House has "Slang (sometimes offensive)", then word-for-word the >>> same definition as AHD, then the rather wondrous etymology >>> >>> "1825-35; perh. ult. to be identified with _kanaka_ 'Hawaiian, South Sea >>> Islander' [literally Hawaiian for 'person'], since both French >>>Canadians and >>> such islanders were employed in the Pacific Northwest fur trade; later >>> reanalyzed as Can[adian] + a suffix" >>> >>> Is it just me, or is that a bit farfetched (literally)? >>> The AHD explanation seems more prob. than the RH's. >>> >>> (Or perh. it's an alteration of the French 'Canadien' -- but only if French >>> Canadians used that word in the early 19th century) Grant W. Smith, President Phone: 509-359-6023 American Name Society Fax: 509-359-4269 Prof. English/Coord. Humanities Email: gsmith at ewu.edu Eastern Washington University, MS-25 526 Fifth St. Cheney, WA 99004-2431 From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Thu Aug 5 17:23:24 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 13:23:24 -0400 Subject: poetry in ASL Message-ID: Bob Fitzke writes: >>>>> GEORGE THOMPSON wrote: > I wondered at the time whether anyone wrote poetry in ASL, with the dancing > movement of the hands serving the function of meter and rhyme in oral > poetry. Our president's oration sure looked a lot better than it sounded. > Nyone familiar > with such poetry? > Don't know if anyone writes poetry in ASL. But my oldest son (while he was between 35 and 40) learned ASL in a two-year, associate degree, program at Lansing, MI Community College. He does interpretation of all kinds including classroom interpreting for student-clients. At one time he interpreted for a singing group that performed for hearing impaired and deaf audiences. They called themselves "The Sounds of Silence". It is a whole different world. <<<<< Yes, there is ASL poetry, or more generally "artsign". It involves not just "the dancing movement of the hands", but all the parameters of ASL phonology (and higher-level aspects, e.g., syntax) to create rhythm, patterns of similarity and contrast, connotation, drama, and other characteristics that distinguish poetry from prose. For example, in a single line, or group of lines, or stanza, a particular handshape may be used in every sign, creating an effect of smoothness and continuity like (but not always strictly parallel to) that of rhyme or alliteration in spoken poetry. Signs may be reversed (signed with, e.g., left hand on right instead of vice versa), or articulated at a different location from the usual one, or with a modified handshape, to maintain the flow. All these modifications are actually or potentially meaningful, which provides another level of structure for the poet/performer to work with and against. And it's not all on the hands. Prose ASL, like probably all sign languages, also uses facial and head gestures and body position grammatically; and these, too, are incorporated and enriched in artsign. -- Mark Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc. : 617 796-0267 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ (speaking for myself) From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Thu Aug 5 17:59:00 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:59:00 -0700 Subject: Dixie Message-ID: So, my office mate, being from Louisiana, brought up the monetary etymology of Dixie. I really had thought much about the origin of Dixie (probably assuming it was the Mason-Dixon line) until yesterday. I searched the ADS-L archive and didn't see any relevant postings. So I searched the Web and came up with this: http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/dixie.html which presents several theories, nothing conclusive. I was just wondering if any of the etymological wizards on this list have something more conclusive. Thanks, Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Thu Aug 5 18:11:34 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 11:11:34 -0700 Subject: Dixie Message-ID: A. Vine wrote: > > So, my office mate, being from Louisiana, brought up the monetary etymology of > Dixie. I really had thought much about the origin of Dixie (probably assuming ^ n't > it was the Mason-Dixon line) until yesterday. > > I searched the ADS-L archive and didn't see any relevant postings. So I > searched the Web and came up with this: > > http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/dixie.html > > which presents several theories, nothing conclusive. I was just wondering if > any of the etymological wizards on this list have something more conclusive. > > Thanks, > Andrea > -- > Andrea Vine > Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect > avine at eng.sun.com > I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Thu Aug 5 18:38:28 1999 From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:38:28 -0400 Subject: Dixie Message-ID: Andrea, Thanks for bringing the Urban Legends website to my attention. I don't know how verifiable the info is--after all, it's about urban legends--but it's a lot of fun. "A. Vine" wrote: > I searched the ADS-L archive and didn't see any relevant postings. So I > searched the Web and came up with this: > > http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/dixie.html > > which presents several theories, nothing conclusive. I was just wondering if > any of the etymological wizards on this list have something more conclusive. -- Bob Haas Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" From jeclapp at WANS.NET Thu Aug 5 19:05:43 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:05:43 -0400 Subject: Dixie Message-ID: A. Vine wrote: > > A. Vine wrote: > > > > I really had thought much about the origin of Dixie (probably assuming > ^ > n't > > > it was the Mason-Dixon line) until yesterday. > > > > I was just wondering if > > any of the etymological wizards on this list have something more conclusive. I don't know how conclusive it is, but I found very appealing the origin cited in an article to which Evan Morris posted a link on this list on 7/21/99, in the following message: A reader sent me a link to an interesting article on Civil War words by Christine Ammer: http://www.thehistorynet.com/MHQ/articles/1999/summer993_text.htm If I may quote the relevant passage (plus a little intro): Fighting Words: Terms from Military History The American Civil War has been called the first modern war because of the appearance of numerous innovations. Our lexicographer examines the war's linguistic heritage. By Christine Ammer . . . The South itself acquired the name Dixie, which actually originated shortly before the outbreak of hostilities. Its earliest recorded use was in a play of 1850 that featured a black character named Dixie, but it was popularized mainly through northern minstrel-showman Daniel Decatur Emmett's 1859 song, "Dixie's Land." According to historian Darryl Lyman, Dixie was a common name for black characters in minstrel shows, and Emmett said he often used the term "Dixie's land" to mean "the black (slave's) land," that is, the South. It has survived and also appears in such terms as Dixiecrat, coined for Southern Democrats who left the national party in 1948 because they opposed President Harry Truman's civil rights platform. Whether it's true or not, I *want* it to be true that the Dixieland so many white racists have claimed allegiance to is actually "Dixie's Land." From jeclapp at WANS.NET Thu Aug 5 19:16:14 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:16:14 -0400 Subject: Urban Legends Message-ID: Bob Haas wrote: > > Andrea, > > Thanks for bringing the Urban Legends website to my attention. Then you might also like http://dir.lycos.com/Society/Urban_Legends/ (though I haven't checked it out myself). James E. Clapp From jeclapp at WANS.NET Thu Aug 5 19:23:37 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:23:37 -0400 Subject: email conventions Message-ID: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM sent along this remark of a co-worker: > But the worst is the Pilot-influenced handwriting things... doing "v"s backwards > or not putting a crossbar in an "A", for instance. I was waiting for somebody else to ask so that I wouldn't have to be the one to reveal my ignorance, but nobody did, so, okay, what is a backwards "v"? James E. Clapp From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Thu Aug 5 19:20:50 1999 From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:20:50 -0400 Subject: Urban Legends Message-ID: Thanks, James. "James E. Clapp" wrote: > Then you might also like http://dir.lycos.com/Society/Urban_Legends/ > (though I haven't checked it out myself). > > James E. Clapp -- Bob Haas Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Aug 5 20:34:26 1999 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 13:34:26 -0700 Subject: OED submissions Message-ID: >From the Honyaku Japanese translation list: Benjamin Barrett gogaku at ix.netcom.com ----- From: diane_c at sunflare.co.jp (Diane Cripps) Dear HONYAKKERs, According to the Philadelphia Inquirer: "The OED is asking anyone who speaks or reads English to submit new words and documentation for them to lexicographers working on the first complete revision in the work's 120-year history." (See http://www.phillynews.com/inquirer/99/Aug/05/national/DICT05.htm) Entries can be submitted via the OED Web site http://www.oed.com Shall I submit "informatization"? Diane Cripps diane_c at sunflare.co.jp cripps at twics.co.jp From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Aug 5 21:38:25 1999 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 15:38:25 -0600 Subject: "the whole nine yards" Message-ID: An Aug. 2 message from Grant Barrett passed along the following request to ADS-L--- >>I will be conducting a diversity presentation on Slang. I was asked for >>the origin of "the whole nine yards" and "the whole enchilada". Do you >>know where I might find that info and the origin of other slang terms? > >Rod Drumm >nyrrod at att.net ------The _San Diego Union Tribune_, March 11, 1997, sec. E., pp.1,3 contains an article entitled "Show Me The Phrases! by staff writer Gil Griffin. Griffin had interviewed Thomas Donahue, a San Diego State University linguistics professor for the article, and one part is relevant to Mr. Drumm's above query: "''The whole nine yards' has origins in World War II ... It came from World War II fighter pilots in the South Pacific,' Donahue said, recalling a letter he received about the phrase. "'The pilots had '50 caliber machine gun ammuntion belts that measured 27 feet. If the pilots fired all their ammo at a target, they said they let go the whole nine yards. "'The saying remains, 50-plus years later,' Donahue said, 'because it's still an easy way to express totality." -----For an overall discussion of the expression, see my item in the November 1998 issue (vol. 28, no. 2) of _Comments on Etymology_, pp.1-4; (title): "_Whole Nine Yards --Most Plausible Derivation Seems To Be From WWII Fighter Pilots' Usage." ---Gerald Cohen gcohen at umr.edu From GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA Thu Aug 5 21:15:54 1999 From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA (No Name Available) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:15:54 PDT Subject: Canuck In-Reply-To: <19990804013736.90112.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: Ezra - and anybody else who's interested: Since I am a Canuck, i.e. a Canadian born and bred, I can refer to my fellow- Canadians as Canucks without being pejorative. The Gage Canadian gives "1. Canadian. 2. French Canadian (origin uncertain)" Nothing about slang (though it's certainly informal) or being offensive (it's all in the tone of voice). And don't forget that our local hockey team out here is the Vancouver Canucks! As far as the origin goes, my late supervisor, Harry Scargill, agreed with the "kanaka" theory. We have a number of kanaka-descended families out here, especially on Saltspring Island. Their ancestors were indeed boatmen with the HBC. Harry's reasoning was that since both the Kanakas and the Canadian French boatmen were dark-skinned, dark-haired and dark-eyed (a lot of the Frenchmen were Metis, and anyway, constant exposure to the elements would darken the skin of those who weren't), the Boston traders couldn't tell t'other from which (an expression of my Yokshire Granmother's) so they were all Kanakas > Canucks. "Boston," as I'm sure you know, is the Chinook Jargon word for Americans. Since the stress falls on the second syllable of both words, it's not so far-fetched as all that, though I notice that Harry, who worked on the Gage definitions A through O (I took over at P, when he became ill), din't go so far as to make this claim in the dictionary - or perhaps it was edited out. I really don't know. Is all this any help? Barbara H. From tgebhart at MADISON.K12.WI.US Thu Aug 5 21:37:41 1999 From: tgebhart at MADISON.K12.WI.US (thomas gebhart) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:37:41 -0500 Subject: msnbc use of selective eye dialect Message-ID: Go to the msnbc.com news website and click the interview with the mother of one of the two Jonesboro shooters for an editorial use of selective eye-dialect. beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon at ipfw.edu From GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA Thu Aug 5 21:36:13 1999 From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA (No Name Available) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 14:36:13 PDT Subject: Canuck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thanks, Bob for backing up my comments (or maybe, predicting them, since you answered first). Barbara H. From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Thu Aug 5 23:03:55 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 18:03:55 -0500 Subject: Fwd: druthers Message-ID: I would rather>I'd rather>I'd ruther>I druther fight than switch. More commonly found in "If I had my druthers." Probably obsolescent in most urban dialects of English--as is "in my stead" and similar expressions such as the distinction between bring and fetch or that and yon. ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn To: Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 8:44 AM Subject: Fwd: druthers > Since Mark, our designated forwarder of relevant Linguist List queries, > hasn't gotten around to it yet, I thought I'd step in and forward this one. > The reanalysis of [I'd rather]>[druther(s)] is the sort of thing that there > must be intermediate evidence for, and early cites would no doubt be of > interest. > Replies, as usual, should go to the querier as well as (optionally) to us. > > > > >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155. Mon Aug 2 1999. ISSN: 1068-4875. > > > >Subject: 10.1155, Qs: Descriptive Grammars, druthers, Verbs/Serbian > >... > >-------------------------------- Message 2 ------------------------------- > > > >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 14:55:51 GMT > >From: alex at compapp.dcu.ie (Alex Monaghan CA) > >Subject: druthers > > > >does anyone have an account of how "i would rather" formed "druthers" in US > >english? or is there a different derivation? the change from gapped clause to > >declinable noun seems unusual to say the least. > > > >comments welcome, > > alex. > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >... > >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155 > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 5 23:46:56 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 19:46:56 EDT Subject: It feels like a Friday; Spelling bee Message-ID: SPELLING BEE (continued) Boy, am I in trouble. I made a long posting on the "spelling bee" last year based on a survey of American newspapers of 1875; there was not much comment here, and it was reprinted in a recent COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY. Today I got this from Charlotte Schuchardt (Mrs. Allen Walker) Read: It does not seem that you or Dr. Popik were aware that Allen wrote an article on the spelling bee in 1941 entitled "The Spelling Bee: A Linguistic Institution" published in PMLA 56:494-512. Actually, it was Allen Walker Read's work on American spelling that was published in AMERICAN SPEECH (O.K. & Can Andrew Jackson Spell?) that interested me in the "spelling bee." I had gone through the revised Mencken, the DA, the DAE, the OED, and others (all published after 1941)--these didn't cite the PMLA article. His PMLA work and my COE work overlap only on PMLA pages 506-507, when he briefly discusses the 1875 spelling craze. I'll have to do an addendum anyway because I recently discovered an 1874 citation for "spelling bee." -------------------------------------------------------- IT FEELS LIKE A FRIDAY On Tuesday at work, someone got ill. EMS was called. Someone cursed another judge. The NYPD was called. "I can't believe it's only Tuesday," another judge said. "It feels like a Friday. It SHOULD be a Friday." I've never seen "feels/seems like a Monday/Friday" recorded. I checked "feels/seems like a" on several databases, and nothing much turned up. This is from GO FIGHT CITY HALL (1949, but also copyrighted 1946) by Ethel Rosenberg: pg. 208: "To me today _feels_ like Wednesday." pg. 214: "Oooh, I'm dying." Mrs. Rivkin's hand goes flying to (pg. 215) her bosom. "Tony," she says, "you wouldn't believe me. All day today, the whole day, I'm telling you, I keep thinking today is Wednesday. Ask me. I know it's Tuesday. Still and all, I can't help it. It _feels_ like Wednesday." "I don't know," Tony says. "It don't feel like Wednesday to me. To me it feels more like Monday." Now isn't that ridiculous? "How can Tuesday feel like Monday?" Mrs. Rivkin wonders. "The same way it can feel like Wednesday," Tony counters. pg. 218: "Tonight is such beautiful programs." "Like what?" Hannah wants to know. "Duffy's Tavern. Groucho Marx. Bing Crosby." "I give up," Hannah says. "Ma! That's tomorrow night. Today is still Tuesday!" Mrs. Rivkin throws up her hands. (...) "The whole day," she murmurs. "The whole day, do me something, it felt like Wednesday." pg. 251: He'll say this much for Hannah: Mrs. Rivkin always embarrasses her. "Ma, _please_!" He'd like a dollar for every time Hannah has said that in his presence. But go fight City Hall! OTHERS: pg. 33: "Drop dead." pp. 85, 118: nasher. pg. 151: nash. (RHHDAS has 1947 and 1951 for "nosh.") pg. 43: meesa-meshinah. pg. 105: m'shpucha. pg. 149: shlepp. pg. 153: epus. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 6 02:40:14 1999 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 22:40:14 -0400 Subject: Fwd: druthers In-Reply-To: <002401bedf96$cc24ba00$7e7a1bcc@pafracat> Message-ID: >I would rather>I'd rather>I'd ruther>I druther fight than switch. More >commonly found in "If I had my druthers." Probably obsolescent in most >urban dialects of English--as is "in my stead" and similar expressions such >as the distinction between bring and fetch or that and yon. Well, yes; that would be the "reanalysis" to which I was referring. But the questions posed were: --what sort of attestation do we have (date and place of earliest cites)? --what evidence we have for intermediate stages? (Do we ever find "I druther"?) --what prompted the switch to the noun, or as the original querier put it, the "change from gapped clause to declinable noun", i.e. a count noun capable of pluralization? I'm wondering if there was perhaps a self-conscious adaptation here, ? la "monokini" and similar waggish pseudo-naive reanalyses. Larry >----- Original Message ----- >From: Laurence Horn >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 8:44 AM >Subject: Fwd: druthers > > >> Since Mark, our designated forwarder of relevant Linguist List queries, >> hasn't gotten around to it yet, I thought I'd step in and forward this >one. >> The reanalysis of [I'd rather]>[druther(s)] is the sort of thing that >there >> must be intermediate evidence for, and early cites would no doubt be of >> interest. >> Replies, as usual, should go to the querier as well as (optionally) to us. >> >> > >> >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155. Mon Aug 2 1999. ISSN: 1068-4875. >> > >> >Subject: 10.1155, Qs: Descriptive Grammars, druthers, Verbs/Serbian >> >... >> >-------------------------------- Message >2 ------------------------------- >> > >> >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 14:55:51 GMT >> >From: alex at compapp.dcu.ie (Alex Monaghan CA) >> >Subject: druthers >> > >> >does anyone have an account of how "i would rather" formed "druthers" in >US >> >english? or is there a different derivation? the change from gapped >clause to >> >declinable noun seems unusual to say the least. >> > >> >comments welcome, >> > alex. >> > >> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >... >> >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155 >> > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 6 02:46:43 1999 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 22:46:43 -0400 Subject: Ethel Rosenberg, Go Fight City Hall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:46 PM -0400 8/5/99, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >-------------------------------------------------------- >IT FEELS LIKE A FRIDAY > > On Tuesday at work, someone got ill. EMS was called. Someone cursed >another judge. The NYPD was called. "I can't believe it's only Tuesday," >another judge said. "It feels like a Friday. It SHOULD be a Friday." > I've never seen "feels/seems like a Monday/Friday" recorded. I >checked "feels/seems like a" on several databases, and nothing much turned >up. > This is from GO FIGHT CITY HALL (1949, but also copyrighted 1946) by >Ethel Rosenberg: > >pg. 208: "To me today _feels_ like Wednesday." > >... >pg. 251: He'll say this much for Hannah: Mrs. Rivkin always embarrasses >her. "Ma, _please_!" He'd like a dollar for every time Hannah has said >that in his presence. But go fight City Hall! > And for this she was executed! Go figure! Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Aug 6 03:28:31 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:28:31 EDT Subject: Electric Ice(d) Tea; Sex on the Beach Message-ID: ELECTRIC ICE(D) TEA The Seattle drink has it both ways. From the Dow Jones database: SEATTLE TIMES, 14 June 1991, pg. 34: Bickford's, 23025 100th Avenue W., 775-4363...(but there is a limit in zoomers like Electric Ice Tea)... SEATTLE TIMES, 27 May 1993, pg. 5: Our waitress (Hunan Chef, 425 116th Ave., N.E., Bellevue--ed.) recommended an Electric Ice Tea: tequila, rum, gin, Coke and sweet'n'sour mix. The $6 effect was lemonade with a bite. Quite pleasing. A regular explained that the bar won't serve any customer more than two of these particular drinks because of their effect. SEATTLE TIMES, 26 June 1997, pg. D4: Having tired of Electric Iced Tea and cigar rooms, perhaps it's inevitable that regulars at the neighborhood watering hole will embrace the latest trend: oxygen bars. SEATTLE TIMES, 5 July 1998, pg. J1: It takes more than making a fuzzy navel extra fuzzy or adding extra "volts" to an electric iced tea to make a bartender. SEATTLE TIMES, 31 December 1998, pg. D1: Martinis have made a huge comeback since the dark ages of cocktails in the 1970s, when people drank Harvey Wallbangers, Electric Ice Tea and Sex on the Beach. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SEX ON THE BEACH The above citation seems to imply both "Electric Ice(d) Tea" and "Sex on the Beach" in the 1970s. This is the first Dow Jones hit for "Sex on the Beach," from the SAN DIEGO UNION-TRIBUNE, 1 September 1987, pg. D1: _Drinks range from lighthearted to lascivious_ _Exotic new libations, with names to match, are making a splash on the bar circuit_ You're at a bar, and you overhear the guy at the next table say something about a '57 Chevy with Hawaiian plates, a fuzzy navel and sex on the beach. You try not to be obvious, but you're leaning so far out of your chair that the waitress thinks you're having a seizure. "And how about you, sir?" the curious waitress inquires a moment later. "Would you like a brain, root canal, or banana split?" (...) '57 Chevy with Hawaiian plates (vodka, amaretto, and pineapple juice) Fuzzy Navel (vodka, peach schnapps, and orange juice) Sex on the Beach (vodka, peach schnapps, and cranberry juice) B-52 (supposedly invented by Lionel Broun, author of THE DRINK DIRECTORY--ed) (Grand Marnier, Kahlua, and Bailey's Irish Cream) ATLANTA CONSTITUTION, 30 May 1990, pg. 6: "All over the country, people are having Sex on the Beach" is the slogan on one ad touting a drink made with Midori. NATION'S RESTAURANT NEWS, 2 January 1995, pg. 31: Perhaps the most famous shooter name is "Sex on the Beach," a contemporary classic composed of vodka, peach schnapps, cranberry juice and orange juice. ("Tie Me to the Bed Post"--Midori, Citron, Malibu Rum, Sweet-n-Sour mix, served at Apples Bar in Orlando--ed.) LOS ANGELES TIMES, 11 January 1996, pg. 4: Safe Sex on the Beach: While Sex on the Beach is a common (cliche) menu item at beach-city bars, the Cheesecake Factory in Marina del Rey added the word "safe"--making it a true drink for the 1990s. BOSTON GLOBE, 30 June 1996, pg. 1: ...Sex on the Beach, a sweet mix of peach schnapps, vodka, cranberry and organge juice that many of the young women favored. "Screaming Orgasm" is _not_ next! I WILL NOT DO "SCREAMING ORGASM"!! From jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU Fri Aug 6 03:22:08 1999 From: jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU (Jeutonne P. Brewer) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:22:08 -0400 Subject: email conventions In-Reply-To: <37A9E4B9.C4C72133@wans.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, James E. Clapp wrote: > Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM sent along this remark of a co-worker: > > > But the worst is the Pilot-influenced handwriting things... doing "v"s backwards > > or not putting a crossbar in an "A", for instance. > > I was waiting for somebody else to ask so that I wouldn't have to be the one to > reveal my ignorance, but nobody did, so, okay, what is a backwards "v"? > > James E. Clapp You write the "v" from right to left instead of left to right. Reason: The Graffiti program (handwriting recognition) never interprets a backwards "v" as a "u". The Palm/Pilot uses a stylized alphabet that requires the minimum number of strokes. The idea is to make the letters without lifting the stylus from the screen. (Only the letter "x" requires two strokes and the lifting of the stylus from the screen.) The "A" without the crossbar is all that is needed to distinguish the letter from other letters. It's an interesting and, in my opinion, easy system to learn. Jeutonne Brewer From pds at VISI.COM Fri Aug 6 04:26:25 1999 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:26:25 -0500 Subject: Email conventions (Initialisms) In-Reply-To: <37A7729C.FC38CBCE@wans.net> Message-ID: At 06:52 PM 8/3/1999 -0400, James E Clapp wrote: >1. Initialisms: > >The people who use these are people who never learned to type. For a >typist, it's quicker and easier to type "in my opinion" than "IMHO," which >requires holding down the shift key while typing four unrelated >characters. How's this for an alternative hypothesis: Most initialisms fade from general use (or never acheive it). Those that persist (in e-mail) are both handy, AND are easier to type. "BTW" and "IMHO" do indeed require holding down the shift key, but they can be made without switching hands. B, T, and W are all on the left side of the keyboard, while I, M, H, and O are all on the right. Actually, I find that I use initialisms with considerable frequency. [And I do touch type.] These are suited to the recipient. When writing to a political connection I may throw in "SoS" for Secretary of State; to programmers, "VFP" for Visual FoxPro; and of course to y'all, "DARE" for, well, you know, doncha. FWIW, here's a complete list of initialisms from a corpus (N=3) of e-mail messages sent by me to a general correspondent in August 1997. F feminist [as a pseudo-genus in F Conferensis] HS high school [not part of a name] SRS Spanish Riding School [written out in a previous sentence] FAQ (archive of answers to) Frequently Asked Questions PO'd Pissed off DFL Democratic-Farmer-Labor (Party) SPPP St Paul Pioneer Press G&S Gilbert and Sullivan PC (IBM-compatible) personal computer BTW By the way USN&WR US News and World Report [never written out] POP Post Office Protocol And if we don't think of typing, we may recall letters from those wonderful epistolary novels of the 18th and 19th centuries, in which initialisms (as well as other abbreviations) abound. Finally, there is P G Wodehouse's Bertie Wooster who made nonce initialism into a high art. If initialisms don't always save time and effort -- and I think they usually do -- they do save space (or bandwidth) and often add spice. And, yes, they can serve to identify the writer with an in-group. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM Fri Aug 6 04:43:48 1999 From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 00:43:48 -0400 Subject: Electric Ice(d) Tea; Sex on the Beach Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > SEX ON THE BEACH > > The above citation seems to imply both "Electric Ice(d) Tea" and "Sex on > the Beach" in the 1970s. This is the first Dow Jones hit for "Sex on the > Beach," from the SAN DIEGO UNION-TRIBUNE, 1 September 1987, pg. D1: I remember the Sex on the Beach cocktail being served as early as 1984 at the Four Corners restaurant in Chapel Hill, but I cannot verify it. I mean, I don't have a menu on me. > "Screaming Orgasm" is _not_ next! > I WILL NOT DO "SCREAMING ORGASM"!! Then you won't be very popular, Barry. -- Bob Haas Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Aug 6 06:35:39 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 02:35:39 EDT Subject: CMYK Message-ID: AOL has a Computing Webopaedia. The word of the day is "CMYK." It's at http://aol.pcwebopedia.com/TERM/C/CMYK.html. CMYK stands for Cyam-Magenta-Yellow-Black. The first letters of each word were in bold. Er, so wouldn't that be CMYB? From james at MULLAN.UK.COM Thu Aug 5 17:31:06 1999 From: james at MULLAN.UK.COM (James Mullan) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 18:31:06 +0100 Subject: Carpetbaggers In-Reply-To: <80adc948.24daec06@aol.com> Message-ID: At 09:30 05/08/1999 EDT, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >CARPETBAGGERS (continued) > > There are two undated "carpetbaggers" that came up on a computer search. > One is this serial with a very long title: > >Rutter's political quarterly devoted to unearthing the sanctimonious >political rats of the South, exposing radical scallawags & carpetbaggers, [snip] FWIW, I used live in Canada & elsewhere, until returning to the UK in '98. Over here in Olde England, the term "carpetbagger" is used differently - it refers to people who open accounts in mutually-owned "Building Societies" (roughly equivalent to S & Ls in the US) in hope (or expectation) of payouts when the Building Society demutualises and becomes a limited liability company, bank or otherwise is listed on an Exchange. Boards usually offer financial inducements to depositors - the "owners" in a mutual - to get them to agree to the institution to go public, with the proxy fights being usually vituperative and hotly fought. Strange how these Brits use the English language, eh? ;-). Just my $0.02 Jimmy The storyteller makes no choice soon you will not hear his voice his job is to shed light and not to master ("Terrapin Station" - Garcia/Hunter) From mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM.TW Fri Aug 6 08:19:58 1999 From: mcclay at TAOLODGE.COM.TW (Russ McClay) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:19:58 +0800 Subject: CMYK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 1999 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 02:35:39 EDT > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: CMYK > > AOL has a Computing Webopaedia. The word of the day is "CMYK." It's at > http://aol.pcwebopedia.com/TERM/C/CMYK.html. > CMYK stands for Cyam-Magenta-Yellow-Black. The first letters of each > word were in bold. > Er, so wouldn't that be CMYB? Perhaps concern for confusing B for Blue. Russ From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK Fri Aug 6 10:06:48 1999 From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron Drews) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:06:48 +0100 Subject: CMYK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Russ McClay wrote: }On Fri, 6 Aug 1999 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: }> }> AOL has a Computing Webopaedia. The word of the day is "CMYK." It's at }> http://aol.pcwebopedia.com/TERM/C/CMYK.html. }> CMYK stands for Cyam-Magenta-Yellow-Black. The first letters of each }> word were in bold. }> Er, so wouldn't that be CMYB? } }Perhaps concern for confusing B for Blue. Most older monitors (or Visual Display Units) were RGB (red green blue), as are HTML colors. So, "B" does mean blue, but in a slightly different context. When I was working in desktop publishing, we sometimes had to convert RGB and CMYK values, and I guess saying "change B to 23 %" might have been a bit confusing. --Aaron ======================================================================= Aaron E. Drews The University of Edinburgh +44 (0)131 650-3485 Departments of English Language http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron and Linguistics "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF" --Death From dmuschel at MAIL.GCSU.EDU Fri Aug 6 11:55:07 1999 From: dmuschel at MAIL.GCSU.EDU (David Muschell) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 07:55:07 -0400 Subject: Dixie In-Reply-To: <37A9D0E4.7C761D5F@eng.sun.com> Message-ID: Andrea, Being in the heart of Dixie, I have done some pretty extensive research on Dixie (including all the ones on the internet site you provide). Though the minstrel show theory has ironic appeal, the bank note origin may be the most likely. The distrust of federal paper money in the early nineteenth century, especially in the South, led many, many banks to issue their own scrip. With cotton king and New Orleans in an economic boom, several banks, the Citizens Bank among them, had scrip that could be exchanged for gold as far away as New York City, their assets being so sound. The mispronunciation of the French "dix" into a more Anglicized form makes the "dixie note" and "the land of the dixie" a Yankee acknowledgement of the economic power of the South in the early part of the century. My research is nine years old (working on my book _Where in the Word?_), so I'd have to dig for my citations. Once again, however, the origin is only one of several possibilities, though economic pride and distrust in the central federal government may offer more impetus to the word origin than entertainment. (I knew a Yankee who used the variation: "Way up north where I was born, early on one snowy morning, look away, look away, look away, Michigan!"). David At 10:59 AM 8/5/99 -0700, you wrote: >So, my office mate, being from Louisiana, brought up the monetary etymology of >Dixie. I really had thought much about the origin of Dixie (probably assuming >it was the Mason-Dixon line) until yesterday. > >I searched the ADS-L archive and didn't see any relevant postings. So I >searched the Web and came up with this: > >http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/dixie.html > >which presents several theories, nothing conclusive. I was just wondering if >any of the etymological wizards on this list have something more conclusive. > >Thanks, >Andrea >-- >Andrea Vine >Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect >avine at eng.sun.com >I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. > > David Muschell Box 44 Dept. of English, Speech, and Journalism Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-445-5556 dmuschel at mail.gcsu.edu From dmuschel at MAIL.GCSU.EDU Fri Aug 6 12:17:15 1999 From: dmuschel at MAIL.GCSU.EDU (David Muschell) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:17:15 -0400 Subject: email conventions In-Reply-To: <852567C3.007D7063.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com> Message-ID: There seems to be an attitude that using emoticons has a certain linguistic disgracefulness attached. Spending the majority of my writing life as a playwright, I find I am constantly finding ways to help my actors interpret a line: So you like going to school? (the very ambiguous "emoticon," the question mark) So you like going to school! (our oldest emoticon, the exclamation point, still ambiguous) So you like going to school !? (maybe giving a bit more amazement with the combination) I might underline "you" or "like" or "school" to create the shift in meaning that I'm looking for. The ellipsis might be used at the end to indicate a pause or a thoughtful moment. A dash might indicate the other actor should interrupt the first speaker. All of you know these conventions used in trying to capture the oral style. I think letter writing and, even more so, email writing has a similar sense of voice and emotion. Rather than mortification and self-reproach concerning the use of emoticons, I'm interested in what kinds there are out there and how they're used (the ":P" tongue-sticking out was new to me). We've all probably seen the wink "; )" and the smile and frown. What are some others? Is there surprise: :-o or uncertainty vOv (a shrug sign) or outrage :-Z??? David At 06:51 PM 8/4/99 -0400, you wrote: >I passed Erin's comment on to several co-workers, and attach their remarks by >permission: > >-- Mark > > Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data > Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc. : 617 796-0267 > 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ > (speaking for myself) > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > >Rachel Silverman >08/04/99 06:39 PM > > >Well, I've put smileys in, though I usually turn them right way 'round. And >when I was a professional proofreader, I'd occasionally use a curly underline >(in proofreading for publishing, this indicates the text should be boldface). > >But the worst is the Pilot-influenced handwriting things... doing "v"s backwards >or not putting a crossbar in an "A", for instance. > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > >Jonathan Gilbert >08/04/99 06:34 PM > >I must admit I have written ":-)" (yes, sideways like that) in handwritten notes >to people ... and probably used abbreviations such as BTW, FWIW, etc. Oh the >shame. > >But I do still tend to underline for emphasis, rather than drawing asterisks ... > > David Muschell Box 44 Dept. of English, Speech, and Journalism Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-445-5556 dmuschel at mail.gcsu.edu From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU Fri Aug 6 13:01:51 1999 From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 09:01:51 -0400 Subject: email conventions In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990806081715.0079a100@mail.gcsu.edu> Message-ID: You can find webpages full of them on the Net. Most of those are pretty special-interest, though... like a Star Trek Klingon emoticon. The only main ones that I can think of that you left out are :} and :{ Both indicate a very sheepish attitude...as in Person 1: If you'd read my e-mail, you'd have known that... Person 2: Sorry.... :} Person 1: You know I don't want to think about that anymore! Stop bringing it up! Person 2: :{ I forgot... Johanna, who wants to point out that ':P' can also be written as ':b' Excerpts from mail: 6-Aug-99 Re: email conventions by David Muschell at MAIL.GCSU > Rather than mortification and self-reproach concerning the use of > emoticons, I'm interested in what kinds there are out there and how they're > used (the ":P" tongue-sticking out was new to me). We've all probably seen > the wink "; )" and the smile and frown. What are some others? Is there > surprise: :-o or uncertainty vOv (a shrug sign) or outrage :-Z??? > From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Fri Aug 6 15:26:10 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:26:10 -0400 Subject: email conventions Message-ID: On jeudi 5 ao?t 1999, Jeutonne P. Brewer wrote: >The Palm/Pilot uses a stylized alphabet that requires the minimum number >of strokes. The idea is to make the letters without lifting the stylus >from the screen. (Only the letter "x" requires two strokes and the >lifting of the stylus from the screen.) The "A" without the crossbar is >all that is needed to distinguish the letter from other letters. >It's an interesting and, in my opinion, easy system to learn. I'm not sure about the X requiring two strokes. Many of the letters have alternate strokes (you can enter the data different ways), and there are add-on programs that can let you completely alter the alphabet to suit your handwriting, but the default X, to the best of my knowledge is one stroke, starting in the upper left, running down to the lower right, curving up to the right, and following through from the upper right to the lower left so as to cross and form a loop with the first downward stroke -- Grant Barrett World New York http://www.worldnewyork.com/ From jrader at M-W.COM Fri Aug 6 11:46:37 1999 From: jrader at M-W.COM (Jim Rader) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:46:37 +0000 Subject: Dixie Message-ID: I did a little research on _Dixie_ in 1993 in response to a query from a correspondent. My feeling then was that the supposed fiscal origin of _Dixie_ was totally unsupported because no one, to my knowledge, has ever found _dixie_ in print referring to a monetary unit of any kind. The Citizens' Bank of Louisiana did issue ten-dollar notes inscribed with both and between 1845 and 1862, but were they ever called "dixies"? No evidence. Ten dollars was a rather high denomination in the mid-19th century, and I wonder to what extent the bills actually circulated. This etymology was promulgated in a pamphlet issued about 1912 or 1913 by the Citizens' Bank & Trust Company of Louisiana, the successor of the Citizens' Bank. It looks like a nice public relations story. The most extensive discussion of the etymology of _Dixie_ that I found was in the musicologist Hans Nathan's book _Dan Emmett and the Rise of Early Negro Minstrelsy (1962). Nathan quotes Dan Emmett's recollection (published in the April 6, 1872, number of the _New York Clipper_) that _Dixie's Land_ "is an old phrase applied to the Southern States, at least to that part of it lying south of the Mason and Dixon's line. In my traveling days amongst showmen, when we would start for a winter's season south, while speaking of the change, they would invariably ejactulate [sic] the stereotyped saying:--'I Wish I was in Dixie's Land,' meaning the southern country....." Although Emmett seems to hint at some relation between _Dixie's Land_ and the Mason-Dixon line, this looks rather after-the-fact, though the etymology was proposed as early as 1861 (Nathan's comment is "the implied derivation is based on legend rather than fact.") Hans Nathan's theory, which others have repeated, was that Dixie was a stock character name for a minstrel-show black, perhaps formed analogically to such widely known names as Pompey and Cuffee. If this was the case, then "Dixie's Land" would make sense as a showman's stock name for the South, the "home" of most African-Americans in slave days. Nathan's sole support for his theory was the occurrence of _Dixie_ in a playbill, dated 1850, that Nathan himself apparently discovered at the American Antiquarian Society in Worcester, MA. The title of the skit was _United States Mail, or Dixie in Difficulties_; Dixie is a black postboy in the skit. Unfortunately, Nathan doesn't illustrate the playbill, which he says is "mutilated." J.L. Dillard had the idea (expostulated in _Black English_, 1972: 221-22) that "...it is pretty clear that the word [comes] from a Plantation Creole pronunciation of the second surname in the _Mason-Dixon Line_, which was laid out in 1763-7, well within the Plantation Creole and even the Negro Pidgin period...Besides being a natural development from _Dixon_ according to the phonological structure of pidgin/creole (which utilizes a consonsant-vowel canonic syllable pattern), _Dixie_ is found as a pronunciation of the surname among the Negro Seminole Scouts--with the spelling _Dixey_ [Dillard gives a footnote to the source here]." Of course, the objection to this etymology is that Dan Emmett, who was born in Ohio, was unlikely to have had much exposure to actual African-American speech of his day, and his songs, in point of fact, appear to have all been written in a stereotyped minstrel-show parody of what was taken to be black speech. A book published in 1996, _Way Up North in Dixie: A Black Family's Claim to the Confederate Anthem_, by Howard and Judith Sacks, claims that Emmett did have exposure to African-American music: Emmett may have known the Snowden's, a black family who played and performed in rural Ohio from the 1850's to the 1920's. I glanced at this book when it first appeared and saw nothing about _Dixie_ in it. (Barry Popik mentioned the book in a post of July, 16, 1998, and he came to the same conclusion I did.) But I never had the time to look into the matter more thoroughly, to see if Dillard's theory actually has any merit. Jim Rader > So, my office mate, being from Louisiana, brought up the monetary etymology of > Dixie. I really had thought much about the origin of Dixie (probably assuming > it was the Mason-Dixon line) until yesterday. > > I searched the ADS-L archive and didn't see any relevant postings. So I > searched the Web and came up with this: > > http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/dixie.html > > which presents several theories, nothing conclusive. I was just wondering if > any of the etymological wizards on this list have something more conclusive. > > Thanks, > Andrea > -- > Andrea Vine > From HoDT at STATE.GOV Fri Aug 6 17:10:43 1999 From: HoDT at STATE.GOV (Ho, Duy T) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:10:43 -0400 Subject: Canuck Message-ID: Question: How do you unsubcribe from this mailing list? Thank you very much. Ted > ---------- > From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA[SMTP:GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA] > Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 5:36 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Canuck > > Thanks, Bob for backing up my comments (or maybe, predicting them, since > you > answered first). > > Barbara H. > From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU Fri Aug 6 18:56:10 1999 From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:56:10 -0500 Subject: Dixie In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990806075507.007bb100@mail.gcsu.edu> Message-ID: David Muschell wrote recently on the history of the word "Dixie", saying in part: "The distrust of federal paper money in the early nineteenth century, especially in the South, led many, many banks to issue their own scrip. With cotton king and New Orleans in an economic boom, several banks, the Citizens Bank among them, had scrip that could be exchanged for gold as far away as New York City, their assets being so sound." It is my impression, from extensive reading in the New York City newspapers of 1815-1845 and before and after, that all, or nearly all paper money in circulation in the United States before the Civil War was issued by local banks. The article on "Money" in the Dictionary of American History supports this notion, saying that paper money was issued by "state-chartered commercial banks" and by the two "Banks of the United States", which were chartered by the federal government, but were not divisions of the Treasury department. Both charters ran for 20 years, 1791 to 1811 and 1816 to 1836, and neither charter was renewed, for political reasons. The U. S. Mint issued gold and silver coins, but the Treasury department didn't print paper money (greenbacks) until the Civil War. New York businessmen were wary of accepting unfamiliar money on out-of-state banks, partly because given the slowness with which news travelled, they could not be sure that they would know whether or not the bank was still solvent, but also because counterfeiting was a major criminal industry, and unless a merchant handled a bank's currency regularly, he couldn't be sure that he would could tell funny money from good money. It appears that it was not illegal in Canada to print American money; at least, whether for that reason or another, the counterfeit money factories were often in Canada, and couriers brought the money down to New York City. I posted a note on the word "boodle" here some months ago, citing a source from the late 1810s that referred to counterfeit money being packaged for shipment in hard tight brick-like blocks. New York City banks would exchange out-of-town currency for local currency, but might discount the face value of the money offered them. Naturally, communications between New Orleans and New York would have been excellent, by the standard of the time, and a lot of business would have been transacted between the two centers, so New York merchants and bankers may well have been more familiar with New Orleans banks and willing to accept their currency than, say, paper money from banks in Ohio or Kentucky. But the fact that New Orleans banks issued paper money, or that it was carried to areas far from New Orleans, isn't remarkable. A man making a business trip from New Orleans would have to fill his wallet with New Orleans currency, unless he collected New York City currency as it circulated in New Orleans. Another major criminal industry of the time was pickpocketing, of course, since businessmen would come to New York with a thousand dollars or more in their wallet, and then not have the discretion to stay out of crowds, stay sober, and stay away from painted women. The fact that businessmen who did stay sober, etc., might be given a hotel room to share -- even sometimes a bed to share -- with a stranger, also helped to make this a truly golden age for pickpockets. This all has no real bearing on the question of the origin of the regional designation "Dixie". The key point in this issue, it seems to me, is the one made by another message to this group: if it's not actually recorded that ten (or "dix") dollar bills from New Orleans banks were ever called "dixies", then the supposition that this is the origin of the name has no foundation. (I unfortunately deleted the message that made this point, so I can't cite the sender's name.) GAT From jeclapp at WANS.NET Fri Aug 6 21:40:05 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:40:05 -0400 Subject: Dixie Message-ID: I like *all* the theories about the origins of "Dixie," and as usual I am thrilled by the erudition on this list. What great history! What great stories! Well, actually, I guess there's one Dixie theory I don't particularly care for--the Mason-Dixon line one. Compared to all the others, it's boring. Besides, as someone was quick to point out in response to a posting from me on a previous thread, Maryland--which is where you land if you cross that line from the north--is not exactly Dixieland. (Although as someone correctly responded at the time, there was definitely a lot of southern culture in southern Maryland, along the border with DC and Virginia, in the 1950's.) James E. Clapp From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Fri Aug 6 22:53:11 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:53:11 -0500 Subject: Fwd: druthers Message-ID: There is quite a semanto-syntactic distinction between a count noun and a limited count noun. ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn To: Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 9:40 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: druthers >I would rather>I'd rather>I'd ruther>I druther fight than switch. More >commonly found in "If I had my druthers." Probably obsolescent in most >urban dialects of English--as is "in my stead" and similar expressions such >as the distinction between bring and fetch or that and yon. Well, yes; that would be the "reanalysis" to which I was referring. But the questions posed were: --what sort of attestation do we have (date and place of earliest cites)? --what evidence we have for intermediate stages? (Do we ever find "I druther"?) --what prompted the switch to the noun, or as the original querier put it, the "change from gapped clause to declinable noun", i.e. a count noun capable of pluralization? I'm wondering if there was perhaps a self-conscious adaptation here, ? la "monokini" and similar waggish pseudo-naive reanalyses. Larry >----- Original Message ----- >From: Laurence Horn >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 8:44 AM >Subject: Fwd: druthers > > >> Since Mark, our designated forwarder of relevant Linguist List queries, >> hasn't gotten around to it yet, I thought I'd step in and forward this >one. >> The reanalysis of [I'd rather]>[druther(s)] is the sort of thing that >there >> must be intermediate evidence for, and early cites would no doubt be of >> interest. >> Replies, as usual, should go to the querier as well as (optionally) to us. >> >> > >> >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155. Mon Aug 2 1999. ISSN: 1068-4875. >> > >> >Subject: 10.1155, Qs: Descriptive Grammars, druthers, Verbs/Serbian >> >... >> >-------------------------------- Message >2 ------------------------------- >> > >> >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 14:55:51 GMT >> >From: alex at compapp.dcu.ie (Alex Monaghan CA) >> >Subject: druthers >> > >> >does anyone have an account of how "i would rather" formed "druthers" in >US >> >english? or is there a different derivation? the change from gapped >clause to >> >declinable noun seems unusual to say the least. >> > >> >comments welcome, >> > alex. >> > >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >> >... >> >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155 >> > From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Fri Aug 6 22:54:00 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:54:00 -0500 Subject: Fwd: druthers Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Laurence Horn To: Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 9:40 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: druthers >I would rather>I'd rather>I'd ruther>I druther fight than switch. More >commonly found in "If I had my druthers." Probably obsolescent in most >urban dialects of English--as is "in my stead" and similar expressions such >as the distinction between bring and fetch or that and yon. Well, yes; that would be the "reanalysis" to which I was referring. But the questions posed were: --what sort of attestation do we have (date and place of earliest cites)? --what evidence we have for intermediate stages? (Do we ever find "I druther"?) --what prompted the switch to the noun, or as the original querier put it, the "change from gapped clause to declinable noun", i.e. a count noun capable of pluralization? I'm wondering if there was perhaps a self-conscious adaptation here, ? la "monokini" and similar waggish pseudo-naive reanalyses. Larry >----- Original Message ----- >From: Laurence Horn >To: >Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 8:44 AM >Subject: Fwd: druthers > > >> Since Mark, our designated forwarder of relevant Linguist List queries, >> hasn't gotten around to it yet, I thought I'd step in and forward this >one. >> The reanalysis of [I'd rather]>[druther(s)] is the sort of thing that >there >> must be intermediate evidence for, and early cites would no doubt be of >> interest. >> Replies, as usual, should go to the querier as well as (optionally) to us. >> >> > >> >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155. Mon Aug 2 1999. ISSN: 1068-4875. >> > >> >Subject: 10.1155, Qs: Descriptive Grammars, druthers, Verbs/Serbian >> >... >> >-------------------------------- Message >2 ------------------------------- >> > >> >Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 14:55:51 GMT >> >From: alex at compapp.dcu.ie (Alex Monaghan CA) >> >Subject: druthers >> > >> >does anyone have an account of how "i would rather" formed "druthers" in >US >> >english? or is there a different derivation? the change from gapped >clause to >> >declinable noun seems unusual to say the least. >> > >> >comments welcome, >> > alex. >> > >> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >> >... >> >LINGUIST List: Vol-10-1155 >> > From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Fri Aug 6 22:37:34 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 15:37:34 -0700 Subject: email conventions Message-ID: Johanna N Franklin wrote: > > You can find webpages full of them on the Net. Most of those are pretty > special-interest, though... like a Star Trek Klingon emoticon. The only > main ones that I can think of that you left out are > > :} > and :{ > > Both indicate a very sheepish attitude...as in > Personally, I use curly bracket for a smirk :-} It is a frequent expression of mine. For emoticons, take a look at: http://wwws.enterprise.net/fortknox/emoticon/smiley.html Also, you might want to look at: http://www.learnthenet.com/english/html/25smile.htm (Service with a smirk.) Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU Sat Aug 7 01:08:46 1999 From: jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU (Jeutonne P. Brewer) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:08:46 -0400 Subject: email conventions In-Reply-To: <-1278183729gbarrett@americandialect.org> Message-ID: ~On Fri, 6 Aug 1999, Grant Barrett wrote: > On jeudi 5 ao?t 1999, Jeutonne P. Brewer wrote: > > >The Palm/Pilot uses a stylized alphabet that requires the minimum number > >of strokes. The idea is to make the letters without lifting the stylus > >from the screen. (Only the letter "x" requires two strokes and the > >lifting of the stylus from the screen.) The "A" without the crossbar is > >all that is needed to distinguish the letter from other letters. > >It's an interesting and, in my opinion, easy system to learn. > > I'm not sure about the X requiring two strokes. Many of the letters have alternate strokes (you can enter the data different ways), and there are add-on programs that can let you completely alter the alphabet to suit your handwriting, but the default X, to the best of my knowledge is one stroke, starting in the upper left, running down to the lower right, curving up to the right, and following through from the upper right to the lower left so as to cross and form a loop with the first downward stroke > > > -- > Grant Barrett > > World New York > http://www.worldnewyork.com/ Well, I have to disagree about the method for making the "x' symbol. Both the Palm's help system and David Pogue's _Palm Pilot: The Ultimate Guide_ list as the default the typical way of making a printed "x" for the the Palm's Graffiti system. Pogue lists a sideways gamma, evidently what you suggest, as a way to make the "x" character. I've never made it that way because I have found the default way of making the "x"--two stokes, typical printed way--easy to remember, predictable, and always acceptable to the Palm. Jeutonne Brewer From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Aug 7 01:19:42 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 21:19:42 EDT Subject: "Abuse Excuse" Message-ID: "Abuse excuse" is showing hits all over the web. Does anyone have an inkling about the first use? The phrase burst on to the scene this week, of course, with Hillary Clinton's interview with TALK magazine. She alleged (although she's recently spun exactly what she said and what she meant) in the interview that Bill Clinton's actions as an adult may have their roots in child abuse when Clinton was about four. BTW, if any of you don't like any of my postings, I too was abused as a little child. It was by my mother, my father, and this rabbi, but I don't want to get into it now... From jeclapp at WANS.NET Sat Aug 7 04:19:17 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:19:17 -0400 Subject: email conventions Message-ID: A. Vine wrote: > > For emoticons, take a look at: > > http://wwws.enterprise.net/fortknox/emoticon/smiley.html > > Also, you might want to look at: > > http://www.learnthenet.com/english/html/25smile.htm To decrypt initialisms or search for initialisms whose expansions include a particular word, see The World Wide Web Acronym and Abbreviation Server at http://www.ucc.ie/info/net/acronyms/acro.html . This site was just called to my attention today by someone whom I had to write back to ask what he meant by AFAIK. I told him I assumed (from the context) that the FAIK means "for all I know," but couldn't figure out the A. He wrote back to say the abbreviation stands for "as far as I know." This is what I meant when I wrote on this list that I find these initialisms a pain, and am always having to go to a lot of trouble if I want to know what the person writing them is actually trying to say. Having a Web site to consult doesn't make them any less a pain, but some of you researchers out there may find it interesting or useful. James E. Clapp From jeclapp at WANS.NET Sat Aug 7 04:38:19 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 00:38:19 -0400 Subject: "Abuse Excuse" Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > "Abuse excuse" is showing hits all over the web. Does anyone have an inkling about the first use? I have long been curious to know whether Alan M. Dershowitz coined this or was merely using a phrase that had been around a while when he wrote his book _The Abuse Excuse_ [full title: _The Abuse Excuse And Other Cop-outs, Sob Stories, and Evasions of Responsibility_] (Little, Brown, 1994). One distinct possibility is that Dershowitz coined the phrase in a previously published article and then expanded the idea into a book. He doesn't seem to claim credit for it, though; his introduction simply starts out: "The "abuse excuse"--the legal tactic by which criminal defendants claim a history of abuse as an excuse for violent retaliation-- is quickly becoming a license to kill and maim." The book has a "Glossary of Abuse Excuses," including everything from "Parental Abuse Syndrome" to "Twinkie Defense" (though I recently read or heard something about a lawyer in the Twinkie case claiming there was no such defense and it's all an urban legend--or at any rate a distortion or confusion about the nature of the defense raised in that famous anti-Gay hate crime). If--excuse me, Barry, I mean *when*--you pin down the origin, let us know. If I see anything relevant I'll post it. James E. Clapp From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 7 11:01:28 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:01:28 -0400 Subject: "Abuse Excuse" In-Reply-To: <37ABB83B.22F7806B@wans.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, James E. Clapp wrote: > I have long been curious to know whether Alan M. Dershowitz coined this or > was merely using a phrase that had been around a while when he wrote his > book _The Abuse Excuse_ [full title: _The Abuse Excuse And Other Cop-outs, > Sob Stories, and Evasions of Responsibility_] (Little, Brown, 1994). It seems pretty clear from a Nexis search that Dershowitz coined the term. The earliest hit is in a transcript of CBS This Morning, Jan. 14, 1994, in which Dershowitz used _abuse excuse_ while discussing the Menendez case. Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From dumasb at UTK.EDU Sat Aug 7 11:05:23 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:05:23 -0400 Subject: frankenfoods Message-ID: from The Globe and Mail (Canada), this headlinE (editorial page D8 on Aug. 7, 1999): "France and Frankenfoods" (by Diane Johnson, Paris) (The word does not appear in the story.) Bethany From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sat Aug 7 11:56:19 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:56:19 -0400 Subject: "Abuse Excuse" In-Reply-To: <37ABB83B.22F7806B@wans.net> Message-ID: All right, so I spoke too soon. Further research (on Dow Jones) retrieves a pre-Dershowitz citation: Danny R. Tipton wrote in a letter to the editor in the Dayton Daily News, 4 Dec. 1993, "Don't be so quick to believe every woman with an abuse excuse." And I notice that in Dershowitz's Jan. 16, 1994 column, he puts the phrase "abuse excuse" in quotation marks throughout the column. So it was probably not original with Dersh. Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Aug 7 16:26:29 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 12:26:29 EDT Subject: "Mutanto" (Monsanto of Frankenfood fame) Message-ID: This is from THE NEW YORK TIMES, 5 August 1999, pg. C2, col. 3: (BOX) _Opposition in Europe to "Frankenstein food."_ (...) In Europe, however, consumers have reacted negatively to genetically engineered foods. Buoyed by the media storm in Europe, activists in the United States have stepped up their assault on biotechnology in recent months, with groups like Greenpeace painting an ugly picture of Monsanto and the industry. One Internet Web site, for instance, has even taken to calling the company (col. 4--ed.) "Mutanto." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Aug 7 16:40:01 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 12:40:01 EDT Subject: "Business Babe" & "Money Honey" Message-ID: The headline in THE NEW YORK TIMES, 7 August 1999, pg. C1: _Moneyline's New Look_ _Yes, Willow Bay Is an Ex-Model, but One With an M.B.A._ Willow Bay is causing quite a stir already! She walked on the floor of Wall Street and nearly stopped trading. Take a look when she interviews the CEOs. I saw several start smiling and say, "Hey, Willow!" Then the male reporter asks a question--boy, that smile goes away. High cheekbones can do that. The first "business babe" or "money honey" was CNBC's Maria Bartiromo--I believe she was dubbed these names by the New York Post in 1997. 13 October 1997, HOUSTON CHRONICLE, D4:1--"In New York she's called the 'business babe.' Behind her back, financial types slug her 'Money Honey.' A recent magazine article dubbed her 'the Sharon Stone of business cable.' But to her loyal viewers on CNBC, Maria Bartiromo is taken far more seriously than that." 29 October 1997, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. B1--"...dubbed 'Money Honey' by New York's tabloids..." 10 November 1997, NEW YORK magazine, pp. 36-37--a story about Maria Bartiromo is titled "Money Honey." BTW: Songwriter Jesse Stone 97, had obituaries on 3 April 1999. He wrote such songs as "Money Honey," "Idaho," and "Shake, Rattle and Roll." From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Aug 7 17:45:56 1999 From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 13:45:56 -0400 Subject: "Mutanto" (Monsanto of Frankenfood fame) Message-ID: A friend of mine who works at a food industry lobby says Monsanto is frequently referred to as "Monsatan" by anti-biotech activists. -----Original Message----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Date: Saturday, August 07, 1999 12:27 PM Subject: "Mutanto" (Monsanto of Frankenfood fame) > This is from THE NEW YORK TIMES, 5 August 1999, pg. C2, col. 3: > >(BOX) _Opposition in Europe to "Frankenstein food."_ > >(...) In Europe, however, consumers have reacted negatively to genetically engineered foods. Buoyed by the media storm in Europe, activists in the United States have stepped up their assault on biotechnology in recent months, with groups like Greenpeace painting an ugly picture of Monsanto and the industry. One Internet Web site, for instance, has even taken to calling the company (col. 4--ed.) "Mutanto." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn, garethb2 at streettech.com Jargon Watch Editor Wired From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Aug 8 01:56:11 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 21:56:11 EDT Subject: Dix notes & Dixie (a false etymology) Message-ID: I ran "dix note" and "dix notes" and "dixies" through the Making of America database, Accessible Archives, Historical Newspapers Online, and I think one other database. I added "note" so I wouldn't get ole General Dix. There were no relevant hits. Actually, I don't think there were ANY hits! There is therefore, in my opinion, ZERO chance that "dixie" comes from dix (ten dollar) notes. There is a minstrel named Dixey from Philadelphia to consider. I thought I discussed him here before. Maybe some other time I'll find my papers... From michael.gottlieb at YALE.EDU Sun Aug 8 02:30:52 1999 From: michael.gottlieb at YALE.EDU (Michael K. Gottlieb) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 22:30:52 -0400 Subject: "Abuse Excuse" In-Reply-To: <37ABB83B.22F7806B@wans.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, James E. Clapp wrote: > "Twinkie Defense" (though I recently read or heard something about a > lawyer in the Twinkie case claiming there was no such defense and it's all > an urban legend--or at any rate a distortion or confusion about the nature > of the defense raised in that famous anti-Gay hate crime). My understanding, based on what I've heard from those involved in the case, is that Dan White's sugar intake leading up to the double murder (his consumption of Twinkies) was mentioned as an off-hand remark by one of the testifying doctors and the later exaggerations were a result of the public shock at the success of White's diminished capacity defense. The defense, however, was not at all based or dependent on White's Twinkie habits. From dmuschel at MAIL.GCSU.EDU Sun Aug 8 11:15:15 1999 From: dmuschel at MAIL.GCSU.EDU (David Muschell) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 07:15:15 -0400 Subject: Dix notes & Dixie (a false etymology) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Your use of "false" in the subject line has a definitive (as well as pejorative) connotation, though the message seems to indicate there is still room for doubt and, thus, further research. At 09:56 PM 8/7/99 EDT, you wrote: > I ran "dix note" and "dix notes" and "dixies" through the Making of >America database, Accessible Archives, Historical Newspapers Online, and I >think one other database. I added "note" so I wouldn't get ole General Dix. > There were no relevant hits. Actually, I don't think there were ANY hits! > There is therefore, in my opinion, ZERO chance that "dixie" comes from dix >(ten dollar) notes. > There is a minstrel named Dixey from Philadelphia to consider. I thought >I discussed him here before. Maybe some other time I'll find my papers... > > David Muschell Box 44 Dept. of English, Speech, and Journalism Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-445-5556 dmuschel at mail.gcsu.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Aug 9 00:22:47 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:22:47 EDT Subject: As many (as possible) Message-ID: This sounds really weird to me, too. If it hasn't been recorded before in American English, it would certainly be worth a note in AMERICAN SPEECH, if someone wants to do the checking and write the note! 's message about Kenya should be checked as well. On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Brian Good wrote: > I don't recall ever hearing or seeing this omission before, but now I > have come across it three times in the past month or so. The speaker > says "as many" while leaving off the "as possible" part. It really > sticks out for me because it sort of grates on my nerves.... I'm left to > complete the "as possible" in my head. Here's where I've heard/seen it: > > McSweeney's Internet Tendency, "Four Dreams of Gergen," by Paul > Maliszewski: > http://www.mcsweeneys.net/1999/06/14dreams.html > "...Lewis Lapham appears. He says, Provide as many correct and > acceptable spellings of the leader of Libya." > > On a plane before takeoff (repeated twice!): > "In order to help conserve overhead bin space, please put as many bags > under the seat in front of you." > > On a radio station in Seattle: > "We're trying to get as many people to call in and tell us about > their favorite movies." > > Is this a new trend or have I just never noticed it before? Is there > someone on some TV show who has started speaking this way? > > Brian From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Aug 9 00:45:04 1999 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 17:45:04 -0700 Subject: As many (as possible) Message-ID: i passed brian good's original message on to john rickford and tom wasow, the senior authors of an article on AS FAR AS in Language a few years ago. they hadn't noticed this use of AS MANY. wasow did a quick search of a large corpus and came up with a whole pile of examples, mostly indicating that searching is challenging, since there are many reasons why AS MANY might not have a following AS X phrase; for instance, the missing AS X phrase might be anaphoric (THEY SAW A LOT OF BIRDS, BUT I DIDN'T SEE AS MANY). i suspect that there are more bg-type examples out there that we just haven't noticed, and rickford is inclined to think so too. it sounds to me like good article-fodder (as ron butters suggests), if not thesis-fodder. faculty members, speak to your students... arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), never short of thesis-fodder, often short of people to help with the farm work From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 9 01:31:43 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 21:31:43 EDT Subject: Dix notes & Dixie (a false etymology) Message-ID: A followup: The "dix notes" theory was first mentioned about 1906. All throughout 1859-1900, when people brought up ANY explanation for "dixie" they could POSSIBLY think of, the "dix notes" theory was NEVER mentioned! I have one or two articles about "dix notes" in my papers. The notes themselves were never very popular, even within Louisiana. Plus, Dan Emmett wrote "Dixie Land" in New York City. The song "Dixie Land" reached New Orleans in 1860 (a version of it was published there)--again, "dix notes" was never mentioned. It's not just that "dix notes" had ZERO hits on my 19th century databases--there are a whole range of factors to exclude this etymology from any serious consideration of "dixie." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 9 02:03:37 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 22:03:37 EDT Subject: Stock-breakers Message-ID: Two "stock-breaker" postings were made on alt.peeves on 7-30-99, right after the Atlanta day trader tragedy. On poster wrote: The cause of the incident is obvious; we must stop our youth from being sucked into the dangerous undertow of this strange sub-culture that calls its members "stock-breakers." It's Sunday, so I can't get to a library to check "stock-breakers" on various databases. I don't think it's very popular, but it's one to watch. From rkm at SLIP.NET Mon Aug 9 07:12:55 1999 From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 00:12:55 -0700 Subject: "Abuse Excuse" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:30 PM -0400 8/7/99, Michael K. Gottlieb wrote: >On Sat, 7 Aug 1999, James E. Clapp wrote: > >> "Twinkie Defense" (though I recently read or heard something about a >> lawyer in the Twinkie case claiming there was no such defense and it's all >> an urban legend--or at any rate a distortion or confusion about the nature >> of the defense raised in that famous anti-Gay hate crime). > >My understanding, based on what I've heard from those involved in the >case, is that Dan White's sugar intake leading up to the double murder >(his consumption of Twinkies) was mentioned as an off-hand remark by one >of the testifying doctors and the later exaggerations were a result of >the public shock at the success of White's diminished capacity defense. >The defense, however, was not at all based or dependent on White's Twinkie >habits. Thought I'd ask my husband, a forensic psychologist, to perhaps clarify the subject a bit. Rima Martin Blinder, MD, was the psychiatrist who tried to explain how hypoglycemia could lead to a diminished capacity. It was part of his report, & can be read in his book. The jury understood the notion, & rendered a verdict accordingly. DC is still an important part of legal decision making, it just isn't codified as such. In most cases, DC is really a mitigating factor, to be considered in sentencing rather than in verdict making. However, when level of intent is important, the ability of the def to FORM that intent becomes part of the verdict. rkm From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 9 17:36:29 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 13:36:29 EDT Subject: Speaking tour Message-ID: "Listening tour" (which our first lady is on right now--she's not campaigning, mind you) was inspired by the earlier "speaking tour." I requested Peter Tamony materials on "listening tour," but haven't heard back yet. "Speaking tour" is not properly recorded. Two early hits on an OCLC WorldCat title search: The tour of President Harrison to the Pacific coast, scenes and incidents of his recption in the souther states (1891) Theodore Roosevelt's western speaking tour of 1903 (1955) The Periodical Contents Index turned up 28 hits, mostly in PUBLIC, volumes 9-11, 1906-1911: Bryan's Speaking Tour, PUBLIC, Sept. 29, 1906, pg. 609. Mr. Bryan's Speaking Tour, PUBLIC, Oct. 20, 1906, pg. 677. Mr. Taft's Speaking Tour, PUBLIC, Sept. 25, 1908, pg. 611. (et al.) Historical Newspapers Online has "speaking tour" from 1917 (LONDON TIMES). The American Memory database has: Anna Howard Shaw (1847-1919) autobiography (1915)--(...) After touring the country in a series of freelance speaking engagements, she accepted Francis Willard's invitation to head the Franchise Department of the WCTU from 1888 to 1892. Group of businessmen listen to Farm Security Administration borrower tell of progress he has made. During this "Know your farmer" tour visited six Farm Security Administration borrowers. Neshoba County, Mississippi. (August 1940). From mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU Mon Aug 9 18:51:37 1999 From: mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 13:51:37 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: _____________________________________________ Mai Kuha mkuha at bsuvc.bsu.edu Department of English (765) 285-8410 Ball State University Muncie IN 47306 From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Mon Aug 9 19:19:20 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:19:20 -0400 Subject: ice tea Message-ID: Over the weekend I saw a sign for "Hawaiian Shave Ice". This was a commercial color job, which I think I saw in a store window (maybe in Woodstock, NY), provided, I guess, by the company that provided either the prepared snack or the machinery (I didn't go in to look or order one) to the store. I actually backpedaled a few steps to be sure I'd seen what I thought I'd seen, "shave ice" without the "d". -- Mark From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Mon Aug 9 19:45:05 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:45:05 -0400 Subject: Economist Style Guide Message-ID: >From the Scout Report. The Economist Style Guide http://www.economist.com/editorial/freeforall/library/styleguide/ Based on the hardback book of the same name, this free online guide will help users clean up and clarify their writing. Written by Foreign Editor John Grimond, the _Style Guide_ is given to all journalists on _The Economist_ staff. Topics addressed in the _Guide_ include unnecessary words, jargon, Americanisms, abbreviations, capitals, punctuation, spelling, and titles, among others. Users may browse the content via a clickable table of contents. Entries are concise and almost all include examples. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/quickmail Size: 1518 bytes Desc: not available URL: From AAllan at AOL.COM Mon Aug 9 19:57:58 1999 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:57:58 EDT Subject: Teacher education proposal Message-ID: This came from the American Council of Learned Societies, to which ADS belongs. If you should be interested, please communicate directly with Maureen Grolnick - not to the whole ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf ---------------- Teacher Education: Many of you have expressed an interest in (concern about) the content preparation of K-12 teachers. I would like to pursue that interest by seeking funding for a year-long "roundtable" on Teacher Education and the Humanities. The general idea: a series of three or four sessions over the course of a year; participation from the societies (including at least one or two scholars who have worked with schools of education), teacher education and the K-12 schools (total group size not to exceed 15); paper(s) and a proposal for an implementation project as an outcome. Please contact me immediately -- or sooner! -- if you are interested in hearing more. Our best bet for funding has an October 15 proposal deadline. I'll do the writing, but I will need to convene those interested -- in-person and/or electronically - between now and September 15 to develop the substance. Maureen Maureen Grolnick Education Program Officer American Council of Learned Societies 228 East 45th Street New York, NY 10017-3398 212-697-1505 ext. 125 Fax. 212-949-8058 e-mail: maureen at acls.org ACLS Website: http://www.acls.org From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Tue Aug 10 01:11:56 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:11:56 -0700 Subject: Dix notes & Dixie (a false etymology) Message-ID: Thanks very much to all of you who have provided information on the possible origins of Dixie. I have enjoyed all the interesting information, and have forwarded the emails to my colleague who talked about the monetary origin. This is a great list! Regards, Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 10 06:02:36 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 02:02:36 EDT Subject: Lime Rickey; Money Honey; Public Defender Message-ID: LIME RICKEY The NEW YORK TIMES, City Section, 1 August 1999, pg. 5, cols. 1-2, had a story about "Lime Rickey, Drink of Yore." It stated that the fresh lime, seltzer and cherry syrup drink was named after Col. Joe Rickey, a turn-of-the-century Washington lobbyist. The earliest "rickey" we have is the "gin rickey," from 1895. The NEW YORK TIMES reported on 24 April 1903, pg. 1, col. 6: "Col. Joseph Karr (Kyle?--ed.) Rickey, famous throughout the country as the originator of the concoction bearing his name, died suddenly yesterday at his home at 124 West Twenty-fifth Street." I haven't checked the Washington Post (the NYU library now closes at 7 p.m., making it impossible for me to use it this month), but this was in the NEW YORK HERALD, 24 April 1903, pg. 5, col. 2: _COLONEL RICKEY_ _TAKES HIS LIFE_ _Poison Kills the Man Who First_ _Compounded Drink Ap-_ _proved by Statesmen._ Colonel Joseph Kyle (Karr?--ed.) Rickey, for twenty-five years well known among politicans the country over as "Joe" Rickey and the originator of the "gin rickey," committed suicide by swallowing a solution of carbolic acid a few minutes before eleven o'clock yesterday morning. (...) During the early seventies he became active in democratic politics in Missouri and went to Washington, where for twenty years he was conspicuous. For many years he was the proprietor of a cafe on Pennsylvania avenue near Thirteenth street, and it was there the "gin rickey" came into existence. Colonel Rickey always said that one of his barkeepers was the real originator of the "rickey." "Bill and I knew about the gin and lime juice," he would say to his friends, "for a long time, but the thing never became famous until one day Henry Watterson (Famous editor of the Louisville Courier-Journal who coined "the Windy City"--ed.) came in for a drink in a great hurry, and in trying to make a new bartender understand what he wanted shouted, 'Oh, confound it, make me one of those--you know--one of those Joe Rickeys.' After that the 'rickey' became one of the institutions of the country." -------------------------------------------------------- MONEY HONEY (continued) The battle of CNBC's "Business Center" (with Maria Bartiromo) and CNN's "Moneyline" (now with Willow Bay) began on 14 October 1997. The NEW YORK POST of that date, pg. 88, col. 3: He (Tyler Mathisen) was paired with Bartiromo--dubbed CNBC's "Money Honey"--after a long screening process. The English Drama database shows a "Prince Hoary" as the author of THE PARAGRAPH: A MUSICAL ENTERTAINMENT IN TWO ACTS (1804): Latin--Satin Money--Honey Scholars--Dollars (This combination escapes me--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- PUBLIC DEFENDER I've been going through newspapers from the early decades of this century (for "jaywalking" and others) and ran across "public defender" mentions. "Public Defenders" is in the HARVARD LAW REVIEW, vol. 10, 1896/1897, pg. 514. I don't know what Fred Shapiro sent in to the OED. From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Tue Aug 10 15:54:03 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:54:03 -0400 Subject: Dixie Message-ID: Merely some notes on Mason & Dixon items in MOA, plus a following editorial comment. The following citations are not meant to be of academic quality, merely rough notes. (Abbreviations for states are mine, as are any oversights/omissions.) If further detail is necessary, please refer to the MOA database, with the search site being at: http://www.umdl.umich.edu/moa/moa_search.html Searching MOA: -- first mention of "Mason and Dixon's line" is in _Southern Literary Messenger_, Richmond, VA, August 1834. -- "Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon", in _Message from the governor of Maryland, . . ._, Washington, 1850. -- "Mason & Dixon's line", in _Debow's Review. . . ._, New Orleans, Nov. 1850. -- "Mason Dixon's line" in Frederick Douglas' _My Bondage and My Freedom_, NY, 1857. First usage of Mason/Dixon combination is in 1834. Next is in year-block from 1840-45. Peaks in year-block of 1855-1860; ending in year-block of 1895-1900. 'Southern'-based publications seem to be the first users (in the MOA database) of the Mason/Dixon combination. An editorial note, from a non-historian: at the time of the Mason-Dixon survey, Delaware was seen as being the lower three counties of Penn. Thus, both the western and southmost lines for the State of Delaware would have been part of the Mason-Dixon survey. (The survey serving to distinguish the boundary lines between Pennsylvania and Maryland.) In 1776, Delaware declared itself to be free of the British Empire, the First State, and established a state government that was separate from Pennsylvania. In the 2nd half of 1776, the Mason-Dixon line would have served to differentiate the lower boundaries of Pennsylvania and Delaware from the northern boundary of Maryland. It seems that, for the sake of convenience, many dictionaries define the Mason-Dixon line as being located between Pennsylvania and Maryland, which would have been the technically correct definition in 1767. Not sure that such would be correct today, except in the common usage sense. Some information on Delaware history is presented at: http://www.state.de.us/facts/history/delhist.htm Again, merely some thoughts. George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 10 22:40:17 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:40:17 EDT Subject: Fwd: Origin of the Crouch Start Message-ID: For you lexicographers (at Yale and elsewhere), this is additional information on the "crouch start." --Barry Popik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Davis, Erin" Subject: RE: Origin of the "crouch start" in sprint races (Long!) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:38:14 -0500 Size: 3597 URL: From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 11 00:59:47 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:59:47 PDT Subject: Mason and Dixon Message-ID: The only line surveyed by Mason and Dixon was the east-west line that forms the border between Pennsylvania and Maryland. It is not for the sake of convenience that dictionaries define it so. My source for this is a detailed (and complicated) chapter in "The Romance of the Boundaries" by John T. Faris (1926). Delaware was granted to William Penn in 1682, and not as part of the Pennsylvania charter of the previous year. Faris writes, "...while after 1693 Delaware had a separate legislature, and, after 1710, its own legislative council, the Governor of Pennsylvania continued to be the chief executive of Delaware, until 1776." This close relationship meant that the boundary between Delaware and Pennsylvania was not disputed. On the other hand, Maryland did dispute its own boundary with both Pennsylvania and Delaware. By 1709, Maryland had given up its claim in the Delaware direction, leaving the Maryland/Pennsylvania boundary as the line of contention. A decree of 1750 fixed the boundaries of all three future states where they are today. The only (semi)circular state boundary in the U.S. was then laid out (centered on New Castle with a radius of 12 miles), dividing Pennsylvania from Delaware. Again, Faris: "The slowness of local surveyors [in marking the PA/MD line] led to the importation from London of Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon, who, between 1763 and 1768, ran the line which has since been known by their names, to a point 244 miles westward from the northeast corner of Maryland. Their work was so well done that when, in the years 1901 to 1903, a commision authorized by the legislatures of Pennsylvania and Maryland relocated the line, they had every reason to commend the surveyors who labored more than a century before them. Their chief work was the relocation of monuments which had disappeared, that the line might be plain in all its length." DEJ "Somewhere below that Dixon line..." -- Jimmie Rodgers _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Aug 11 01:55:08 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:55:08 EDT Subject: Millionaire Message-ID: "My name is Elmer J. Fudd. Millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht." --somewhere in ADS-L archives. In the middle of November, PBS will show its much-awaited documentary, NEW YORK. A book will come out a little before that; the web site (www.wnet.org/newyork/menu.html) is being prepared now and is supposed to be up by the end of August. I told Ric Burns and his staff at Steeplechase Films about my work and the work of others here (Big Apple, Great White Way, Yankees, shyster, hooker--you can't do a New York documentary without 'em). He couldn't be bothered to reply. The taxi cab quiz game is currently up--in part--at cosine.wnet.org:9001/nygame/Master.po?x=361&y=278. This is one of the questions: Question: New York's phenomenal growth in the 1850s gave rise to this new term: A. "Skinflint" B. "Millionaire" C. "Venture capitalist" Answer "A" or "C" and you get, "Give it another try, why don't you?" Answer "B" and you get "Right you are!" and: Correct! From Peter Cooper to Cornelius Venderbilt, New York saw dozens of millionaires created in the boom-decade of the 1850s. But the word "millionaire" doesn't come from New York City in the 1850s! The first hit on the Making of America database is the SOUTHERN LITERARY MESSENGER of 1836--discussing a "millionaire" from Boston. The BDE has it in English from 1826, in Benjamin Disraeli's VIVIAN GREY. Disraeli borrowed it from the French word, _millionnaire_. Ah, but the web site is just starting... From bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET Wed Aug 11 03:50:56 1999 From: bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET (Bernard W. Kane) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 23:50:56 -0400 Subject: in my stead Message-ID: Recent posting to the List quoted obsolescent usage "in my stead." Reminded me and maybe some other List members of old, old recording by Lawrence Tibbett (RCA Victor?) of number from The King's Henchman, libretto by Edna St. Vincent Millay, music by Deems Taylor? one chorus of which goes Oh, Caesar, great wert thou And Julius was thy name, But I would not stand in thy stead, For I'd liever be quick than dead. Bernie Kane word finder From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Wed Aug 11 15:47:17 1999 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:47:17 -0400 Subject: in my stead Message-ID: Of course, "lieve" or "lief" is also obsolescent, or even obsolete, as is "quick" in the sense used here--so the last two lines would be virtually incomprehensible to moderns! But related to "stead" is "lieu," which is increasingly misinterpreted; I recently had a student write "in lieu of" when she clearly meant "with reference to." At 11:50 PM 8/10/99 -0400, you wrote: >Recent posting to the List quoted obsolescent usage "in my stead." Reminded >me and maybe some other List members of old, old recording by Lawrence >Tibbett (RCA Victor?) of number from The King's Henchman, libretto by Edna >St. Vincent Millay, music by Deems Taylor? one chorus of which goes >Oh, Caesar, great wert thou >And Julius was thy name, >But I would not stand in thy stead, >For I'd liever be quick than dead. >Bernie Kane >word finder > From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Wed Aug 11 16:09:31 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:09:31 -0400 Subject: Mason and Dixon Message-ID: The following is a result of a question that came to mind when a list-question about the origin of 'Dixie' was raised. My question related to the first use of Mason and Dixon line. A further question came about when I saw that many sources defined the line as merely being the current dividing line between Pennsylvania (of today) and Maryland. >From my Delaware history classes, I had learned that the Mason and Dixon line also served as a dividing point between Delaware (of today) and Maryland. The various dictionary definitions that I've seen tend to describe a single line, which exists between Pennsylvania (today) and Maryland, without noting that such a usage was probably derived well after the time of the Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon survey. Perhaps the dictionaries are correct, and the state archive sites (below) are presenting possibly misleading information. My original posted concern should have been labeled, when did the present-day dictionary definitions come into use? According to a Britannica volume (#7, 1991: p. 913), "the term 'Mason and Dixon Line' was first used in debates leading to the Missouri Compromise (1820)." My concern would be with the point at which the line came to be defined as being merely the East-West (West-East) line between Pennsylvania & Maryland. The original survey would have also included a North to South line, along the western edge of the lower part of Pennsylvania (today = Delaware), and a further West-East component, at the lower border of Pennsylvania (today = Delaware). At some point in time, probably for the sake of convenience (in debates), the line came to mean merely the dividing point between Pennsylvania (of today) and Maryland. [The details from the maps (cited below) distinctly show the 'three lower counties', or Delaware, as being part of the Mason & Dixon survey.] Going by the information presented in the state archive sites (below), it is not clear that the original Mason and Dixon line was merely the dividing point between today's Pennsylvania and Maryland. In the various Delaware history classes that I took as a student (grade school, high school, & college) in Delaware, the Mason-Dixon line coursed around both the western and southern borders of the state. Various on-site historical markers affirmed the information given in those history classes. (I've 'lost' the notes of those classes, memory has to serve; along with information from a recent discussion with another student of that era.) Having worked in land surveying, many, many years ago (in Delaware), I realize that a survey can incorporate the results of another survey, without replicating the work of the other survey. Perhaps the work of Mason & Dixon was merely incorporated with the work of others, concerning the Delaware (today) portion of their work. [Or, historians may have made the 'incorporation'?] For that matter, Mason & Dixon never actually reached the westernmost edge of Pennsylvania. In the Microsoft Encarta 98 Encyclopedia, at the entry for Mason-Dixon Line, is a map graphic which shows a line that defines the border (today) of Pennsylvania/Maryland and the western border of Delaware (today). It does not show a southern (Mason-Dixon) border for Delaware. After mentioning Mason and Dixon's work, it notes that "Further work was done in 1773 and 1779." >From a site for the Maryland State Archives: "1768. Details from the map of the boundary survey between Maryland and Pennsylvania by Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon. SPECIAL COLLECTIONS (Maryland State Archives Map Collection), MSA SC 1427-74-1/2. http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/msa/speccol/sc2200/sc2221/000017/000013/html/0000.html (general listing of maps, including "detail of Delaware & Maryland border") Further map detail, of the three lower counties (today = Delaware), at: http://www.mdarchives.state.md.us/msa/speccol/sc2200/sc2221/000017/000013/images/d005018b.gif Additional discussion at: http://mdhs.org/donacq.html#plan (click on the illustration that shows the Delaware border) At a state of Delaware site: "Delaware's boundaries were surveyed in 1763-68 by the noted English scientists, Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon." Earlier note: "After 1682, a long dispute ensued between William Penn and Lord Baltimore of the Province of Maryland as to the exact dominion controlled by Penn on the lower Delaware. . . The dispute continued between the heirs of Baltimore and Penn until almost the end of the colonial period." http://www.state.de.us/facts/history/delhist.htm Overall, this note is not meant to be a criticism of any other source of info. If the dictionaries are correct, then the information presented by various state archives may be in error or incomplete. George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Aug 11 17:08:27 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:08:27 EDT Subject: "Dixie" panned; "Urban" Starbucks Message-ID: "URBAN" STARBUCKS The cartoon "This Modern World" by Tom Tomorrow (17 August 1999 VILLAGE VOICE and other papers: These days, it seems like a lot of people are trying to talk about race without mentioning _race_... ..which has led to an upswing in the use of certain _euphemisms_, such as "inner city"--or the ever-popular "at risk youth"... ..not to mention "urban"...for instance, when a Starbucks recently opened in _Harlem_, the company proudly announced that it was their first "urban" store... PENGUIN: ...And so all those other Starbucks in major cities across the country...? MAN: Well, they're in cities--but they are not "urban"--if you know what I mean! They're "middle class"--if you get my drift! Their customers are not "at risk"--if you see what I-- PENGUIN: Stop it. You're making my head hurt. -------------------------------------------------------- "DIXIE" PANNED Today's NEW YORK DAILY NEWS has a story by the Associated Press it titled "Rehnquist 'Dixie' panned" on page 34: WASHINGTON--The nation's largest organization of black lawyers wants Chief Justice William Rehnquist to quit singing "Dixie," a song it calls a "symbol of slavery and oppression." The 18,000-member National Bar Association passed a resolution at its recent convention in Philadelphia urging Rehnquist to "refrain from such offensive behavior in the future." A Supreme Court spokesman said yesterday that Rehnquist had no comment on the resolution. Rehnquist, the nation's top federal judge, led judges and lawyers in a rendition of "Dixie" during a conference in Hot Springs, Va., in late June. He attends the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals conference each year, and each year leads a sing-along. The annual event has for several years included "Dixie," associated with the Southern cause during the Civil War, as well as the "Battle Hymn of the Republic," which is associated with the North. So, the big question here is, next year, WHAT IS CHIEF JUSTICE REHNQUIST GONNA SING?? Maybe something from the Supremes? Baby love, my baby love... From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Wed Aug 11 17:46:18 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:46:18 -0400 Subject: Put the Smack Down Message-ID: Came across "Puts the Smack Down" in a headline and asked the author what he thought it meant. Here is his unsubstantiated response. >Basically, it's a slang term used typically among the young (as >most are); it means essentially "to use overwhelming force, >often suddenly and swifty, to achieve a goal or a victory." It >does not, however, necessarily indicate that victory was >achieved, merely that it was sought with sudden and often >excessive force. There are a bazillion hits on Altavista. A fan page for the Purdue Boilers defines "put the smack down" as "To deliver consistent, firm justice." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/quickmail Size: 1542 bytes Desc: not available URL: From promotion at BENJAMINS.COM Wed Aug 11 18:18:39 1999 From: promotion at BENJAMINS.COM (Andrew Gallinger) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:18:39 -0400 Subject: New Books from John Benjamins Publishing Message-ID: John Benjamins Publishing would like to call your attention to the following new titles in the field of dialect studies: URBAN JAMAICAN CREOLE: Variation in the Mesolect. Peter L. Patrick 1999 xii, 317 pp. Varieties of English Around the World, G17 US/Canada: 1 55619 448 X Price: USD 110.00 Rest of the World: 90 272 4875 3 Price: NLG 220.00 A synchronic sociolinguistic study of Jamaican Creole (JC) as spoken in urban Kingston, this work uses variationist methods to closely investigate two key concepts of Atlantic Creole studies: the mesolect, and the creole continuum. One major concern is to describe how linguistic variation patterns with social influences. Is there a linguistic continuum? How does it correlate with social factors? The complex organization of an urbanizing Caribbean society and the highly variable nature of mesolectal speech norms and behavior present a challenge to sociolinguistic variation theory. The second chief aim is to elucidate the nature of mesolectal grammar. Creole studies have emphasized the structural integrity of basilectal varieties, leaving the status of intermediate mesolectal speech in doubt. How systematic is urban JC grammar? What patterns occur when basilectal creole constructions alternate with acrolectal English elements? Contextual constraints on choice of forms support a picture of the mesolect as a single grammar, variable yet internally-ordered, which has evolved a fine capacity to serve social functions. Drawing on a year's fieldwork in a mixed-class neighborhood of the capital city, the author (a speaker of JC) describes the speech community's history, demographics, and social geography, locating speakers in terms of their social class, occupation, education, age, sex, residence, and urban orientation. The later chapters examine a recorded corpus for linguistic variables that are phono-lexical (palatal glides), phonological (consonant cluster simplification), morphological (past-tense inflection), and syntactic (pre-verbal tense and aspect marking), using quantitative methods of analysis (including Varbrul). The Jamaican urban mesolect is portrayed as a coherent system showing stratified yet regular linguistic behavior, embedded in a well-defined speech community; despite the incorporation of forms and constraints from English, it is quintessentially creole in character. -------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Gallinger Tel: (215) 836-1200 Publicity/Marketing Fax: (215) 836-1204 John Benjamins Publishing Co e-mail:promotion at benjamins.com PO Box 27519 Philadelphia PA 19118-0519 John Benjamins web site: http://www.benjamins.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Aug 11 21:29:46 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:29:46 EDT Subject: No Tamony "Listening/Speaking Tour" Message-ID: The Peter Tamony archives have no "listening tour" and no "speaking tour." Oh well. --Barry Popik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Moore, David F." Subject: RE: Speaking Tour Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:52:37 -0500 Size: 1758 URL: From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 11 21:39:52 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:39:52 -0400 Subject: Listening tour; In like Flynn In-Reply-To: <18661cd.24da4159@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Aug 1999 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > LISTENING TOUR > > Hillary Clinton is on a "listening tour" of New York State. I wrote to > her with a problem she could have solved--and got a form letter that didn't > listen to anything I said. > "Listening tour" is on the Dow Jones database from about 1983--anyone > have earlier? The earliest Nexis evidence is Miami Herald, March 14, 1982. Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 11 21:55:42 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:55:42 -0400 Subject: Speaking tour In-Reply-To: <8aca4e08.24e06b9d@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Aug 1999 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > "Speaking tour" is not properly recorded. Barry, I'm curious what you mean by "not properly recorded." Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 11 22:04:54 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:04:54 -0400 Subject: Dixie In-Reply-To: <37B04B1B.D4A41315@ark.ship.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Aug 1999, G S C wrote: > Searching MOA: > -- first mention of "Mason and Dixon's line" is in _Southern Literary > Messenger_, Richmond, VA, August 1834. Note that the Dictionary of Americanisms records _Mason and Dixon's line_ from 1779. Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 11 22:08:12 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:08:12 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Origin of the Crouch Start In-Reply-To: <4cb5d44c.24e20451@aol.com> Message-ID: Note that the OED has an earlier citation for _crouching start_ than any sent by the Hall of Fame. Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Aug 11 22:17:04 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:17:04 -0400 Subject: Millionaire In-Reply-To: <453b0cd3.24e231fc@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > But the word "millionaire" doesn't come from New York City in the 1850s! > The first hit on the Making of America database is the SOUTHERN > LITERARY MESSENGER of 1836--discussing a "millionaire" from Boston. > The BDE has it in English from 1826, in Benjamin Disraeli's VIVIAN GREY. > Disraeli borrowed it from the French word, _millionnaire_. Thomas Jefferson used _millionnaire_ ("the poorest labourer stood on equal ground with the wealthiest millionnaire") in 1786. Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From PTcurtis at AOL.COM Thu Aug 12 05:48:33 1999 From: PTcurtis at AOL.COM (PTcurtis at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 01:48:33 EDT Subject: Abraham Lincolns tone of voice and accent Message-ID: I have always been curious as to how the Gettysburg address may have actually sounded when delivered by President Lincoln. Does any one know of any studies that may be able to reconstruct Lincolns voice based on stories and more scientific studies of his throat structure from photographs and dialect of his era and locality. Paul Curtis From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Aug 12 11:00:24 1999 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:00:24 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: Abraham Lincolns tone of voice and accent Message-ID: I am not aware of any such scientific studies. However, there is a website on which a recorded recollection by a man, William V. Rathvon, who heard the Gettyburg Address at the age of nine. It is from a 1938 recording on a 78 r.p.m. record. www.npr.org/progams/lnfsound/sound/990212.sow.html Regards, David K. Barnhart From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Thu Aug 12 11:21:53 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 06:21:53 -0500 Subject: in my stead Message-ID: Thanks--I'd never seen the comparative degree of "lief." ----- Original Message ----- From: Bernard W. Kane To: Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 10:50 PM Subject: in my stead > Recent posting to the List quoted obsolescent usage "in my stead." Reminded > me and maybe some other List members of old, old recording by Lawrence > Tibbett (RCA Victor?) of number from The King's Henchman, libretto by Edna > St. Vincent Millay, music by Deems Taylor? one chorus of which goes > Oh, Caesar, great wert thou > And Julius was thy name, > But I would not stand in thy stead, > For I'd liever be quick than dead. > Bernie Kane > word finder From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Aug 12 11:08:32 1999 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:08:32 -0400 Subject: Lincoln and the address Message-ID: The url should read: www.npr.org/programs/lnfsound/sound/990212.sow.html Sorry for the inconvenience. Please address flames for my inaccuracy to me rather than the list. David K. Barnhart Barnhart at highlands.com From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Thu Aug 12 11:53:43 1999 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:53:43 -0400 Subject: further on Lincoln Message-ID: I am afraid my previous posting doesn't answer the question that was posted. I do recall somewhere either on the radio or from some other source that Lincoln was described as having a "higher" pitched voice than one might expect. I do not know if that description could be perhaps related to the possible (?) "midwestern twang" so often ridiculed in us natives of Illinois. Regards, David Barnhart at highlands.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 12 14:11:31 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:11:31 EDT Subject: Rickey; Iced Tea; Jazz Message-ID: RICKEY (continued) Another "rickey" (I'll have to check the Louisville Courier-Journal and the Washington Star when I go to the Library of Congress next) is in the WASHINGTON POST, 24 April 1903, pg. 1, col. 7: _COL. RICKEY A SUICIDE_ _Draught of Poison Closes Noted_ _Character's career._ _POPULAR DRINK GIVEN NAME_ New York, April 23.--Col. Joseph Kyle Rickey, said to be the originator of the famous drink known as the "gin rickey," died to-day in his home at 24 West Twenty-fifth street. (...) Col. Rickey's death will be mourned in Washington, where he lived and was a famous character about town. To this day, in Shoomaker's place, noted on Newspaper Row, the sign appears that in this place the rickey was discovered. Col. Joseph Kyle Rickey was born in St. Joe, Mo., sixty-one years ago. He came to Washington as a lobbyist in 1883. While here, Mr. Herzog, of Shoomaker & Herzog, on E street, died and the place was offered for sale. Mr. August W. Noack, a member of the firm, urged Col. Rickey to purchase the business, which he did. (...) _Origin of the Rickey._ Col. Rickey, before he became the owner of the resort on E street, would go into Shoomaker's and ask George Williamson, who is still there, for a drink composed of "Belle of Nelson whisky," a piece of ice, and a siphon of seltzer. Fred Mussey (Muesey?--ed.), now gone, watched Col. Rickey indulge in these beverages. He finally took the recipe to New York, and there called for a "Rickey drink," which he explained and got, and thus spread its fame. One day Representative Hatch, of Missouri, went into Shoomaker's and asked for "one of those Rickey drinks, with a half of a lime in it." This was given Mr. Hatch and the rickey was complete. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ICED TEA (continued) This is from the Tea Council of the USA, Inc., 420 Lexington Avenue, NYC 10170 (their postage meter has "1899-1999 100 Years of Service to the Tea Industry"): _CELEBRATE NINETY-FIVE YEARS OF ICED TEA DURING_ _NATIONAL ICED TEA MONTH IN JUNE_ NEW YORK, NY, June 1999--When temperatures soared during the 1904 World's Fair in St. Louis, tea promoter Richard Blechynden added ice to the popular beverage and created an instant favorite. Today, Americans consume more than 2.2 billion gallons of tea a year and 80% of that is served over ice. As iced tea nears its platinum anniversary, its popularity continues to grow. (...) What better time to celebrate the tasty thirst quencher than the start of summer during _National Iced Tea Month_ in June. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- JAZZ (continued) Ken Burns (of the PBS documentaries CIVIL WAR and BASEBALL and the brother of Ric Burns, of the upcoming PBS documentary NEW YORK) is currently doing a long documentary on the history of "jazz." Gerald Cohen should try to contact him--I don't know if Burns intends to credit any of Peter Tamony's work. PBS documentaries, as you all know, are used as an educational tool. Students watching THE STORY OF ENGLISH, for example, can learn that the term "O. K." came from Africa.... From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Aug 12 16:32:22 1999 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter McGraw) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:32:22 -0700 Subject: Release(d?) Message-ID: O.k., this isn't about dialects, but it is about American speech, and I hope some of you will indulge me by serving as linguistic guinea pigs. When, for example, an adjunct is hired to reduce the teaching load of a regular faculty member so that said regular can perform some other task, does your gut feeling as native speakers of American English prompt you to call the hours in question "released time" or "release time," or to accept both equally? The same goes for space in an existing building when a department moves to a new building: Is it "released space," "release space" or either one? When I first encountered "release time" in writing, my first impulse was to edit it to "released time," but when I thought about it, I couldn't see why they weren't both equally valid, even if different, grammatical approaches to the same thing. (Obviously one factor at work is that most speakers would probably pronounce both the same--especially in the case of "-time"--and might analyze the underlying form either way for the purpose of representing it in writing.) Apart from the issue of Sprachgefuehl, does anyone have a sense of one or the other gaining the ascendency in written usage at present? It seems to me that "release time" is probably gaining ground while my own "released time" is becoming somewhat old fashioned. (You know you're getting old when....") Thanks for any reactions. Peter Mc. ---------------------- Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon pmcgraw at linfield.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Aug 12 18:07:23 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:07:23 EDT Subject: Release(d?) Message-ID: in reply to : I prefer RELEASED TIME and RELEASED SPACE. RELEASE TIME sounds to me like it means 'time when the baloons (or whatever) will be released'. RELEASE SPACE doesn't compute for me at all. I associate RELEASED TIME with an underlying [TIME which has been RELEASED]", so a PPart marker is necessary for me. RELEASED SPACE works the same way for me. The final stop does of course get deleted in pronunciation, but in all but the most informal writing, one rarely indicates pronunciation, except in a few fixed items such as DON'T--and then usually an apostrophe is used. I often see HANDICAP PARKING on parking-lot signs, which strikes me as a "mistake." I'm not sure that such variant spellings are increasing--how could one possibly know? My memory is that Tom Cresswell was amused by such omissions thirty years ago, and that we have had several discussions of the lost PPart -ED on ADSL, but I could be wrong. A great many things amused Tom Cresswell. I miss his wisdom greatly. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Aug 12 18:43:02 1999 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter McGraw) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:43:02 -0700 Subject: Release(d?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:07:23 EDT RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > in reply to : > > I prefer RELEASED TIME and RELEASED SPACE. RELEASE TIME sounds to me > like it means 'time when the baloons (or whatever) will be released'. > I often see HANDICAP PARKING on parking-lot signs, > which strikes me as a "mistake." Even though I'm adjusting to "release time," "handicap parking," which I've also seen, sounds like something they might need at Lourdes for those who leave their infirmities behind. (Of course the two are not really analogous, since "released time" does not mean "time for the released," and "handicapped parking" does not mean something like a parking area with crooked or inaccessible spaces.) ---------------------- Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon pmcgraw at linfield.edu From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Thu Aug 12 20:18:55 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:18:55 -0700 Subject: hot dog video Message-ID: I think someone was hoping to record the PBS special on the hot dog. Well, I received a video catalogue of PBS programs, and the cover feature is..."A Hot Dog Program: An All-American celebration of some fabulous and phenomenally popular little sausages in their soft little buns." (The description sounds vaguely obscene.) The video is approximately 60 minutes, and retails for $19.98 (why not $19.99?) from PBS Home Video, catalogue item #A3648, call 1-800-645-4727 to order. Looks like shipping and handling (or "another way to get more money out of you") is $4.75, plus sales tax in CA, NY, and VA. Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From dumasb at UTK.EDU Thu Aug 12 20:21:13 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:21:13 -0400 Subject: Seeing Info re team teaching Message-ID: We have a faculty shortage and we don't have anyone who can teach Lx 200, Intro to Lx. We are thinking of team-teaching the course (35 students) with 4-5 individual faculty members, each responsible for a specified part of the content and a single graded activity, paper or project. If you have experience participating in or coordinating such a joint venture, please share your experience. I have never done this before and will serve as coordinator if we do this. Thanks, Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 12 21:33:06 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:33:06 EDT Subject: Millionaire (continued) Message-ID: (From the Eighteenth Century Literature database.) Tobias George Smollett's HUMPHREY CLINKER (1771) has "...but the millionaires having more zeal than discretion..." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Aug 13 00:12:50 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 20:12:50 EDT Subject: Carpetbagger (continued) Message-ID: This is from the NEW YORK HERALD (editorials), 22 April 1868, pg. 8, col. 2: The field for radical revision in the Southern States will give employment to a new horde of "carpet baggers." (Earlier cites if I have time to get to a library after work and before the 6:45 p.m. weekday closing time.) From GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA Fri Aug 13 01:18:21 1999 From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA (No Name Available) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:18:21 PDT Subject: Seeing Info re team teaching In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bethany: We did this for a number of years in our LING 100 class, typically over 100 students. Each of us in the department (6 or 7 at that time) took a section (as you suggest) and a quiz was given at the end of that time period, marked by the TA's. One year we tried having just 2 hours of lecture per week, and then dividing the class into groups of 25 or so for tutorials with a TA. This didn't work as well as the 3 hours plus office hours for the TAs. But the students liked having the experience of meeting all the different faculty that they might have later on in a specific course. We only had to give it up as our graduate programme expanded and faculty members became overloaded. For two years, Tom Hess and I team-taught the course, each of us doing our best bits in two separate sections; for example, I might be doing dialectology in one section while he did native languages in the other. For the basics like phonetics and morphology, we both taught at the same time in our own sections. Now we have three large sections of 100A (first half, basics), 2 in the fall term and one in the spring, and one of 100B (historical, socio, etc.) in the spring. When we have enough people around, we then give a 100B in the fall. The main answer to your question is yes, it worked for us. Cheers, Barbara Harris. From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Aug 13 10:00:01 1999 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 06:00:01 -0400 Subject: 1st Dagwood Message-ID: Has anyone been following Blondie from the beginning? I am looking for the exact date of the appearance of the Dagwood sandwich. Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion Barnhart at highlands.com From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Fri Aug 13 12:07:57 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:07:57 -0500 Subject: 1st Dagwood Message-ID: I seem to recall the Dagwood sandwich from the days when Alexander was called "Baby Dumpling." I am sure that we celebrated VE day with Dagwood sandwiches. It was around the time when Junior Tracy's mother worked in a restaurant shaped like a coffee pot. ----- Original Message ----- From: Barnhart To: Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 5:00 AM Subject: 1st Dagwood > Has anyone been following Blondie from the beginning? I am looking for > the exact date of the appearance of the Dagwood sandwich. > > Regards, > David K. Barnhart, Editor > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion > > Barnhart at highlands.com From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Fri Aug 13 12:31:21 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:31:21 -0500 Subject: Release(d?) Message-ID: I would put "release time" in the same level of speech as "ice tea," "mash potato," and "bake potato." ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter McGraw To: Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 11:32 AM Subject: Release(d?) > O.k., this isn't about dialects, but it is about American speech, and I > hope some of you will indulge me by serving as linguistic guinea pigs. > > When, for example, an adjunct is hired to reduce the teaching load of a > regular faculty member so that said regular can perform some other > task, does your gut feeling as native speakers of American English > prompt you to call the hours in question "released time" or "release > time," or to accept both equally? The same goes for space in an > existing building when a department moves to a new building: Is it > "released space," "release space" or either one? > > When I first encountered "release time" in writing, my first impulse > was to edit it to "released time," but when I thought about it, I > couldn't see why they weren't both equally valid, even if different, > grammatical approaches to the same thing. > > (Obviously one factor at work is that most speakers would probably > pronounce both the same--especially in the case of "-time"--and might > analyze the underlying form either way for the purpose of representing > it in writing.) > > Apart from the issue of Sprachgefuehl, does anyone have a sense of one > or the other gaining the ascendency in written usage at present? It > seems to me that "release time" is probably gaining ground while my own > "released time" is becoming somewhat old fashioned. (You know you're > getting old when....") > > Thanks for any reactions. > > Peter Mc. > > ---------------------- > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College > McMinnville, Oregon > pmcgraw at linfield.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Aug 13 15:50:58 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:50:58 EDT Subject: 1st Dagwood Message-ID: David B's memories are probably as reliable as mine, but I am quite certain that my family was using "Dagwood sandwich" by the late 1940s, and probably earlier. I remember the term from early childhood; I was five years old in 1945. From jrader at M-W.COM Fri Aug 13 12:49:16 1999 From: jrader at M-W.COM (Jim Rader) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:49:16 +0000 Subject: 1st Dagwood Message-ID: Merriam's first cite for _Dagwood sandwich_ is from the Mar., 1945, issue of _Reader's Digest_ (p. 72), condensed from an _Esquire_ article (date not given): "_Blondie_ has given the nation the mountainous and precarious _Dagwood sandwich_...." Plenty of evidence for _Dagwood_ and _Dagwood sandwich_ since then. Jim Rader > David B's memories are probably as reliable as mine, but I am quite certain > that my family was using "Dagwood sandwich" by the late 1940s, and probably > earlier. I remember the term from early childhood; I was five years old in > 1945. > From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Fri Aug 13 18:46:06 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:46:06 -0400 Subject: 1st Dagwood Message-ID: According to _100 Years of American Newspaper Comics_, edited by Maurice Horn, Gramercy Books, 1996: the comic strip Blondie "made its first appearance on September 15, 1930." "It was originally conceived as a 'girlie strip,' with Blondie Boopadoop portrayed as an irrepressible gold digger in pursuit of an irresponsible playboy named Dagwood Bumstead." Apparently, Dagwood was in competition with other suitors, and didn't have a major role. Dagwood was brought back into the strip, and was married to Blondie on February 17, 1933, and soon disinherited by his father. The arrival of Baby Dumpling, a son, turns the comic strip into a family strip, in 1934. Dagwood sandwich mentioned, but first use is not dated. George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From RonButters at AOL.COM Fri Aug 13 19:57:18 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:57:18 EDT Subject: 1st Dagwood Message-ID: Come to think of it, why would the cartoon have mentioned a Dagwoood sandwich at all? The strip simply showed Dagwood making weird and gigantic sandwiches. Applying the term probably happened among readers, not as a result of the strip-writer's coinage. From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Aug 13 20:06:05 1999 From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:06:05 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re(2): 1st Dagwood Message-ID: RonButters at AOL.COM,Net writes: > > >Come to think of it, why would the cartoon have mentioned a Dagwoood >sandwich >at all? The strip simply showed Dagwood making weird and gigantic >sandwiches. >Applying the term probably happened among readers, not as a result of the >strip-writer's coinage. That would be my expectation. However, I'm looking for not just the first use of _Dagwood sandwich_ but also for the first occurrence of the sandwich in the Blondie comic strip. Regards, David From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Fri Aug 13 20:45:37 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:45:37 -0400 Subject: Evolution of Languages Message-ID: >From the Scout Report The Evolution of Languages http://www.exploratorium.edu/exploring/ Another great site from Exploratorium (described in the February 21, 1997 Scout Report) The Evolution of Language provides users with tools to trace and explore the evolution of the spoken and written word. Enhanced by audio interviews with linguist Merritt Ruhlen, author of _The Origin of Language: Tracing the Evolution of the Mother Tongue_, this simple but well crafted site provides a nice jumping off point for those interested in the subject. Several exercises and tables help users explore how linguists trace word use and creation as well as how they group languages into common families. Also included is basic information about the history of linguistics and the roots of language classification. [REB] -- Grant Barrett World New York http://www.worldnewyork.com/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Aug 13 21:41:40 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 17:41:40 EDT Subject: Fwd: Murphy's Law Message-ID: A response from the Flight Safety Foundation on "Murphy's Law." --Barry Popik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "David A. Grzelecki" Subject: Re: Murphy's Law Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:46:05 -0400 Size: 1829 URL: From ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Aug 13 23:28:25 1999 From: ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM (Jane Clark) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:28:25 PDT Subject: Teacher education proposal Message-ID: I suspect these people know tons about their subjects but maybe not so much about teaching. I just attended a conference re: this subject. Thought it was an interesting point. >From: AAllan at AOL.COM >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Teacher education proposal >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:57:58 EDT > >This came from the American Council of Learned Societies, to which ADS >belongs. If you should be interested, please communicate directly with >Maureen Grolnick - not to the whole ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf > >---------------- >Teacher Education: >Many of you have expressed an interest in (concern about) the content >preparation of K-12 teachers. I would like to pursue that interest by >seeking funding for a year-long "roundtable" on Teacher Education and the >Humanities. The general idea: a series of three or four sessions over the >course of a year; participation from the societies (including at least one >or two scholars who have worked with schools of education), teacher >education and the K-12 schools (total group size not to exceed 15); >paper(s) >and a proposal for an implementation project as an outcome. > >Please contact me immediately -- or sooner! -- if you are interested in >hearing more. Our best bet for funding has an October 15 proposal deadline. >I'll do the writing, but I will need to convene those interested -- >in-person and/or electronically - between now and September 15 to develop >the substance. > >Maureen > >Maureen Grolnick >Education Program Officer >American Council of Learned Societies >228 East 45th Street >New York, NY 10017-3398 >212-697-1505 ext. 125 >Fax. 212-949-8058 >e-mail: maureen at acls.org >ACLS Website: http://www.acls.org _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Sat Aug 14 01:18:31 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 20:18:31 -0500 Subject: Teacher education proposal Message-ID: Do the presenters have to be able to teach or merely give a lecture that is pertinent, well organized, and interesting. I have years of experience at jr-hi & hi-school and in university, seminary, and graduate level courses and can assure you that there is a world of difference. At the post-secondary level, any non-remedial course has either prerequisites or expectations; at the secondary level prerequisites may not be valid and expectations may be misplaced: I knew an experienced and quite knowledgeable 8th grade public school English teacher returning to teaching after a 20-yr absence who told me that she would start the term by having her students write themes. My snicker annoyed her greatly. The next week, she indicated that her students would be practicing on writing well organized paragraphs. The 3rd week, she was planning on sentence construction. The 4th week, she was stressing how to write and recognize a sentence that was a complete thought. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jane Clark To: Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 6:28 PM Subject: Re: Teacher education proposal > I suspect these people know tons about their subjects but maybe not so much > about teaching. I just attended a conference re: this subject. Thought it > was an interesting point. > > > >From: AAllan at AOL.COM > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > >Subject: Teacher education proposal > >Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:57:58 EDT > > > >This came from the American Council of Learned Societies, to which ADS > >belongs. If you should be interested, please communicate directly with > >Maureen Grolnick - not to the whole ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf > > > >---------------- > >Teacher Education: > >Many of you have expressed an interest in (concern about) the content > >preparation of K-12 teachers. I would like to pursue that interest by > >seeking funding for a year-long "roundtable" on Teacher Education and the > >Humanities. The general idea: a series of three or four sessions over the > >course of a year; participation from the societies (including at least one > >or two scholars who have worked with schools of education), teacher > >education and the K-12 schools (total group size not to exceed 15); > >paper(s) > >and a proposal for an implementation project as an outcome. > > > >Please contact me immediately -- or sooner! -- if you are interested in > >hearing more. Our best bet for funding has an October 15 proposal deadline. > >I'll do the writing, but I will need to convene those interested -- > >in-person and/or electronically - between now and September 15 to develop > >the substance. > > > >Maureen > > > >Maureen Grolnick > >Education Program Officer > >American Council of Learned Societies > >228 East 45th Street > >New York, NY 10017-3398 > >212-697-1505 ext. 125 > >Fax. 212-949-8058 > >e-mail: maureen at acls.org > >ACLS Website: http://www.acls.org > > > _______________________________________________________________ > Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Aug 14 06:18:57 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 02:18:57 EDT Subject: 20th Century Words; F-Word Message-ID: 20TH CENTURY WORDS This is from the NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, 13 August 1999, pg. 5, cols. 3-4: _As the language turns,_ _pop culture reigns big_ _By DAVE GOLDINER_ ("With News Wire Services" appears at the end--ed.) Sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll make the world go round--and they changed the English language, too. New ways to describe the Big Three of popular culture dominate a list of the most important words to enter the language in the last 100 years, a new book says. No one talked about "having sex" until the 1920s. Before that, the act was known only as "making love," said John Ayto, a lexicographer and editor of "20th Century Words." Amazing how companies (Oxford University Press in this case) can make the wire services with free ads. On Amazon.com it's stated that the book will be published in October 1999, will be 480 pages, lists for $25, will sell on Amazon for $17.50, and has the Amazon.com sales rank (SALES RANK? IT'S NOT OUT YET!!) of 1,231,863. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- F-WORD (continued) In a monologue on Friday night's TONIGHT SHOW, Jay Leno made fun of George W. ("Dubyah") Bush's use of "the f-word." "The f-word?" band leader Kevin Eubanks asked. "Friendly?" From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Sat Aug 14 12:18:02 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 08:18:02 -0400 Subject: Spanish-Only Government In Texas Town Message-ID: >From http://www.iht.com/IHT/TODAY/SAT/IN/habla.2.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Paris, Saturday, August 14, 1999 Spanish Becomes the Language of Government in a Texas Town ------------------------------------------------------------------------ By Claudia Kolker Los Angeles Times Service ------------------------------------------------------------------------ EL CENIZO, Texas - As ceiling fans puffed at the big U.S. flag on the community center wall, the dozen residents at the city council meeting here Thursday poised hands over hearts for the Pledge of Allegiance. Then they began their town's modestly historic council meeting, possibly the first in the United States to be conducted by city ordinance in Spanish. Far-flung, sun-battered and mostly poor, this former colonia of trailers and frail bungalows found itself in the middle of a political vortex two weeks after enacting a pair of surprising new laws. Under one ordinance, all city government business must take place in Spanish. And under the other, city employees - all six of them - are forbidden to assist the U.S. Border Patrol in catching undocumented immigrants. If they do so, they risk being fired.' In a town of 7,500 where virtually every resident is an immigrant, married to an immigrant, or the child of immigrants, the laws reflect not so much a rejection of American culture but acknowledgment of a border culture dominated by Spanish and haunted by Border Patrol search vehicles. Far from springing from any broad ideology, in fact, the motivation for the two laws was utterly local, said Mayor Rafael Rodriguez. ''About 75 percent of the people at meetings here only speak Spanish,'' he said. Political rivals of city council members had accused them of turning in undocumented residents to the Immigration and Naturalization Service, or INS, and the new law will help dispel such accusations, Mr. Rodriguez added. So far, residents of this depressed town of laborers and factory workers 10 miles (16 kilometers) down the Rio Grande River from Laredo, Texas, have praised the two ordinances. ''I'm for it,'' said Lupe Rojas, squinting in the sunlight alongside her 10-year-old son. ''Because in English, well - no! We don't understand it.'' But while several Latino advocacy groups praised the effect of the language ordinance in tailoring city services to constituents, the law drew the ire of immigration-reform activists. ''This is not a good idea,'' said Tim Schultze, a spokesman for U.S. English in Washington, a group devoted to making English the official language of the United States. ''We have long predicted that this sort of thing would happen in our country. And our opponents have said, 'You're insane. You're exaggerating. It will never happen.''' But Lydia Camarillo, executive director of the San Antonio, Texas-based Southwest Voter Education Registration Project, called the statute sensible. ''It appears that these folks clearly understand these communities do not speak English and this is a way of providing a service,'' she said. Under the ordinance, city council sessions and other official business will be conducted in Spanish, and English translations will be made available upon request within 48 hours. While the language ordinance provokes strong debate, the ''safe haven'' rule apparently violates federal law, according to the INS. Safe haven ordinances in cities across the country have attempted to keep municipal employees from acting as immigration enforcers, but such measures, unlike the one here, typically include the proviso that they be enforced within the limits of law. Immigration law forbids any federal, state or local government official from restricting government entities in giving or getting immigration information, said Bill Strassberger, an INS spokesman in Los Angeles. However, he added, the INS had no plans to challenge the El Cenizo law. ''Other types of criminal activity are our priority,'' he said. From dumasb at UTK.EDU Sat Aug 14 12:25:24 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 08:25:24 -0400 Subject: Spanish-Only Government In Texas Town In-Reply-To: <-1277503821gbarrett@americandialect.org> Message-ID: Thanks, Grant. As I slowly and sometimes painfully acquire fluency in espanol, I remain aware that there is no good reason whatsoever why I did not grow up bilingual. No one growing up anywhere in south Texas should be a monolingual. Bethany From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Sat Aug 14 18:36:24 1999 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 14:36:24 -0400 Subject: Teacher education proposal Message-ID: The problem in schools of education is generally the opposite: Teacher education does lots of method and technique training, but the content knowledge base is sorely lacking in teacher trainees I've met. At 04:28 PM 8/13/99 -0700, you wrote: >I suspect these people know tons about their subjects but maybe not so much >about teaching. I just attended a conference re: this subject. Thought it >was an interesting point. > > >>From: AAllan at AOL.COM >>Reply-To: American Dialect Society >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>Subject: Teacher education proposal >>Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 15:57:58 EDT >> >>This came from the American Council of Learned Societies, to which ADS >>belongs. If you should be interested, please communicate directly with >>Maureen Grolnick - not to the whole ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf >> >>---------------- >>Teacher Education: >>Many of you have expressed an interest in (concern about) the content >>preparation of K-12 teachers. I would like to pursue that interest by >>seeking funding for a year-long "roundtable" on Teacher Education and the >>Humanities. The general idea: a series of three or four sessions over the >>course of a year; participation from the societies (including at least one >>or two scholars who have worked with schools of education), teacher >>education and the K-12 schools (total group size not to exceed 15); >>paper(s) >>and a proposal for an implementation project as an outcome. >> >>Please contact me immediately -- or sooner! -- if you are interested in >>hearing more. Our best bet for funding has an October 15 proposal deadline. >>I'll do the writing, but I will need to convene those interested -- >>in-person and/or electronically - between now and September 15 to develop >>the substance. >> >>Maureen >> >>Maureen Grolnick >>Education Program Officer >>American Council of Learned Societies >>228 East 45th Street >>New York, NY 10017-3398 >>212-697-1505 ext. 125 >>Fax. 212-949-8058 >>e-mail: maureen at acls.org >>ACLS Website: http://www.acls.org > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Aug 14 23:14:51 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 19:14:51 EDT Subject: "In God We Trust" Message-ID: "In God We Trust" is an important American phrase. I ran it through computer databases and came up with a new, very early citation. We've discussed this briefly (see the archives). It's also discussed in the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS (pg. 211) and the RANDOM HOUSE DICTIONARY OF POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS (pages 165-166). Both credit Francis Scott Key's 1814 "The Star-Spangled Banner," which gave us: And this be our motto, "In God is our trust!" Nothing early came up on the Making of America database. Accessible Archives had two important hits. The CHRISTIAN RECORDER, 1 June 1861, had a poem called "OUR FLAG" with the line "In God we trust." This is from the PENNSYLVANIA GAZETTE, 12 January 1748: PHILADELPHIA, January 12. DEVICES and MOTTOES painted on some of the Silk Colours of the Regiments of ASSOCIATORS, in and near Philadelphia. (Various Latin mottoes given--ed.) IX. A Coronet and Plume of Feathers. Motto, IN GOD WE TRUST. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Aug 15 02:24:42 1999 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:24:42 -0600 Subject: hip-hop query Message-ID: Does anyone know of a dictionary or glossary of hip-hop terms? Also, I've started reading through the hip-hop magazine BLAZE and notice the following lyrics which I cannot understand except for the part up to "It's 4 a.m.": (April 1999 issue, p.58; article title: "Honorable Mention": "If you gotta be a mokey, be a gorilla It;s 4 a.m. I'm off a tab and still a World rap billa' Pushin' big Benz Wit' a chickenhead drawers hangin' from my antenna!" Can anyone translate this for me? ----Gerald Cohen gcohen at umr.edu From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Aug 15 02:34:27 1999 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 20:34:27 -0600 Subject: Oops, misspelling Message-ID: I just sent a message asking about hip-hop lyrics but misspelled the work "monkey" (first line). So the lyrics are: "If you gotta be a monkey, be a gorilla It;s 4 a.m. I'm off a tab and still a World rap billa' Pushin' big Benz Wit' a chickenhead drawers hangin' from my antenna!" I still have no idea what the last four lines mean. ----Gerald Cohen gcohen at umr.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Aug 15 04:50:02 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 00:50:02 EDT Subject: Number one; Clamdiggers; Boy meets girl Message-ID: NUMBER ONE Dodger baseball great Pee Wee Reese died. His famous catch phrase was, "Number one on your scorecard, and number one in the hearts of America." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CLAMDIGGERS At a recent fashion show, several designers (Perry Ellis, Daniel Chu) showed off capri pants/clamdiggers for GUYS. Some other names for this budding fashion monstrosity are "new crop" and "pre-pants." I haven't yet checked the Dow Jones database for it. (NYU is closed on weekends.) How many names does this have? Are the pants called different names for the different sexes? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BOY MEETS GIRL (continued) The lesbian sex film BETTER THAN CHOCOLATE was reviewed in the NEW YORK TIMES, 13 August 1999, pg. E26, col. 3: ...it has the effervescence of an engaging musical comedy in which girl meets girl, girl loses girl and girl gets girl back, multiplied by three. This is the headline (the story is about subway vigilante Bernhard Goetz's missing pet) in the NEW YORK POST, 15 August 1999, pg. 16, cols. 1-4: _A tragic boy-meets-squirrel, boy-loses-squirrel tale_ GET ME SONDHEIM!! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Aug 15 04:53:42 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 00:53:42 EDT Subject: Rap Dictionary Message-ID: The rap dictionary is at www.rapdict.org/. From spine1 at EARTHLINK.NET Sat Aug 14 22:25:36 1999 From: spine1 at EARTHLINK.NET (Jonathan Fine) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:25:36 +0000 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 13 Aug 1999 to 14 Aug 1999 (#1999-66) Message-ID: My impression is that the narrator is driving his Mercedes while high on a tab of acid, and has recently struck a pedestrian with such force that the chickenhead's underwear now dangles from the car's antenna. Puttin' my hands in the air like I just don't care, Jonathan Fine > "If you gotta be a monkey, be a gorilla > It;s 4 a.m. > I'm off a tab and still a > World rap billa' > Pushin' big Benz > Wit' a chickenhead drawers hangin' from my antenna!" > I still have no idea what the last four lines mean. > ----Gerald Cohen From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Aug 16 01:40:17 1999 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 19:40:17 -0600 Subject: Rap dictionary Message-ID: My thanks to Barry Popik for drawing my attention to the rap dictionary on line ( www.rapdict.org/.) and to Jonathan Fine for interpreting the rap lyrics that were l incomprehensible to me: "If you gotta be a monkey, be a gorilla It;s 4 a.m. I'm off a tab and still a World rap billa' Pushin' big Benz Wit' a chickenhead drawers hangin' from my antenna!" I checked the online dictionary. "Chickenhead" is listed: "any dumb person (usually refers to women, unfortunately) who clucks (speaks) a lot and walks around aimlessly or without purpose (like... [That's the way the entry ends: with "like" followed by three dots.] I see that RHHDAS also lists "chickenhead" (= dolt) with the first attestation coming as early as 1906, but the reference is to both men and women. Meanwhile, a preliminary check turns up more items that are absent from the online dictionary than are present; a few examples: 1) "babymuva" ----BLAZE, April 1999, p.47: "Eminem needs help... he's having problems deciding which Spice Girl to make his next babymuva." 2) "whip" (apparently = car) ----BLAZE, April 1999, p. 58: "I pull up in the whip, pop the trunk, ya feel it?/ Barefoot gorilla funk, ya hear it?" -------The online rap dictionary has two items 'for "Whip," both nicknames. 3) "billa'" (in the lyrics quoted above from my earlier message). This word isn't in RHHDAS or the online rap dictionary. I'm not sure of its meaning. So the online dictionary is a good beginning, but it is evidently only a beginning. Does someone out there have a student who might be interested in working on this project? Perhaps as a term paper? If the collection is a good one (with illustrations from rap lyrics or articles about rap from such publications as BLAZE) , an effort should be made to see that it gets published somewhere. -----Gerald Cohen gcohen at umr.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 16 02:01:16 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:01:16 EDT Subject: Carpetbagger & First Lady (continued) Message-ID: CARPETBAGGER (continued) This is from the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE, 6 February 1868, pg. 2, col. 1: We are told the South now hates her own people who upheld the Union, and call the Northern settlers "Yankees" in derision. "Yankees"? Not "carpetbaggers"? Probably "damn yankees," but Brooklyn is the City of Churches, you know. This--our latest "earliest" citation--is from the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE, 30 March 1868, pg. 2, col. 3: On Saturday the House of Representatives passed an act providing for "reconstruction" in Alabama. The Constitution for which but 6,000 "carpet baggers" recently voted, is declared to be the fundamental law of the State. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FIRST LADY (continued) OED has 1853 and 1861 citations for "first lady of the land." The following article shows that this was not always the same as "first lady of the White House." This long article is from the BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE, 21 March 1868, pg. 2, cols. 4-5: WHO IS THE FIRST AMERICAN LADY--CURIOUS GOSSIP FROM WASHINGTON. (From the Pittsburgh (Pa.) _Gazette) (...) MRS. SENATOR SPRAGUE AND MRS. LINCOLN. In the early days of the war the young Governor of Rhode Island, who raised a regiment at his own risk, and went to suppress the rebelllion, was quite a hero of romance. Loyal ladies were not so abundant in Washington as after Lee's surrender; and, what with her wit, beauty, gracious manners, her father's position, and the affianced of the Rhode Island millionaire-patriot-Governor-Colonel, Miss Chase occupied a very prominent position, and believed herself entitled to precedence as "First Lady" in the Government. She contested her claim with Mrs. Lincoln, who, as "Lady of the White House," was, by common consent, awarded that eminence. There had been several passages at arms between them, and Mrs. Lincoln felt deeply aggrieved when Miss Chase was at the White House... MRS. WADE AND MRS. SPRAGUE. Mrs. Sprague's desire to be "First Lady" amounts almost to a mania; and, no doubt, has much to do with her father's Presidential aspirations. While Mr. Johnson is President (This was during the impeachment--ed.) she will have little active opposition to her claim to that dignity in right of her treble rank of wealth, wife of a Senator and daughter of the Chief-Justice... A long, catty discussion of the qualities of Mrs. Wade and Mrs. Sprague for the title of "First Lady" follows. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- SPEAKING TOUR (continued) The Purdue University 1966 thesis of Frederick William Edward Trautmann was LOUIS KOSSUTH'S AUDIENCE ADAPTATION IN HIS AMERICAN SPEAKING TOUR, 1851-1852. Charles Dickens had his "American tour" in 1842. I haven't yet checked the documents for the term "speaking tour." From bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM Mon Aug 16 02:40:03 1999 From: bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM (Ken Miller) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 19:40:03 -0700 Subject: "As if" in Rushdie's latest Message-ID: When did "as if!" as a sarcastic retort come into general usage? I tend to associate it (and the related "what*ever*!") with the _Clueless_ generation (the movie title, not a dig at that generation). So here's a scene from Salman Rushdie's _The Ground Beneath Her Feet_. The setting is mid-1940s Bombay (relived in a flashback), and the narrator's mother has just built a soaring sand castle, or sand building: "'Skyscraper,' she named it. 'How'd you like to own a penthouse at the top?' Skywhatter? Where was a penthouse pent? These were words I did not know. I found myself disliking them: the words, and the building to which they belonged. Besides, I was bored and wanted to swim. "'Looks like a big matchbox to me.' I shrugged. 'Live in it? As if.'" Somehow, this sounds a little anachronistic to me. But what do I know? (This is not a quibble about the book itself, which I am reading with great pleasure.) Ken Miller Partridge School of Gentle Arts From mrudge at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Aug 16 05:53:45 1999 From: mrudge at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (M. Rudge) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 22:53:45 -0700 Subject: "As if" in Rushdie's latest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I recall hearing "as if" appearing much earlier than the cluless movie. Wayne and Garth from "Wayne's World" on Saturda Night Live used this expression regularly. I'm not sure if it originated in this time frame but I remember hearing it for the first time from Wayne and Garth. It has a california surfer lingo ring to it. michelle On Sun, 15 Aug 1999, Ken Miller wrote: > When did "as if!" as a sarcastic retort come into general usage? > > I tend to associate it (and the related "what*ever*!") with the _Clueless_ > generation (the movie title, not a dig at that generation). > > So here's a scene from Salman Rushdie's _The Ground Beneath Her Feet_. The > setting is mid-1940s Bombay (relived in a flashback), and the narrator's > mother has just built a soaring sand castle, or sand building: > > "'Skyscraper,' she named it. 'How'd you like to own a penthouse at the > top?' Skywhatter? Where was a penthouse pent? These were words I did not > know. I found myself disliking them: the words, and the building to which > they belonged. Besides, I was bored and wanted to swim. > > "'Looks like a big matchbox to me.' I shrugged. 'Live in it? As if.'" > > Somehow, this sounds a little anachronistic to me. But what do I know? > > (This is not a quibble about the book itself, which I am reading with great > pleasure.) > > Ken Miller > Partridge School of Gentle Arts > From mrudge at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Mon Aug 16 07:01:04 1999 From: mrudge at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (M. Rudge) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 00:01:04 -0700 Subject: SQUATTING Message-ID: Does anyone know where the term squatting(as in the unlawful occupation of abandoned buildings by the homeless) originated? The term is widely used in Europe and the United States. If anyone has any clues or clues to where I might be able to find such information I would be very thankful. michelle From jrader at M-W.COM Mon Aug 16 08:50:57 1999 From: jrader at M-W.COM (Jim Rader) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:50:57 +0000 Subject: Evolution of Languages Message-ID: People on this list might want to know, if they don't already, that Merritt Ruhlen is a sort of pop proselytizer of Joseph Greenberg's ideas about the genetic relationships of the world's language families--though in confidently reconstructing Proto-World, I think Ruhlen has gone beyond even Greenberg. Ruhlen openly sneers at conventional historical linguistics and those who practice it. Most linguists sneer right back at him, though I think it fair to say that even those who seriously think about long-range comparison don't take Ruhlen too seriously, and feel that Ruhlen's hostility toward academia has needlessly antagonized many. I'm sorry to see that Ruhlen is still finding fora to advance his ideas. (For anyone interested, there's a summary of Ruhlen's methodology and a critique of it in Larry Trask's _Historical Linguistics_ (London: Arnold, 1996), pp, 391-96.) Jim Rader > From the Scout Report > > The Evolution of Languages > http://www.exploratorium.edu/exploring/ > > Another great site from Exploratorium (described in the February 21, > 1997 Scout Report) The Evolution of Language provides users with > tools to trace and explore the evolution of the spoken and written > word. Enhanced by audio interviews with linguist Merritt Ruhlen, > author of _The Origin of Language: Tracing the Evolution of the > Mother Tongue_, this simple but well crafted site provides a nice > jumping off point for those interested in the subject. Several > exercises and tables help users explore how linguists trace word use > and creation as well as how they group languages into common > families. Also included is basic information about the history of > linguistics and the roots of language classification. [REB] > > -- > Grant Barrett > > World New York > http://www.worldnewyork.com/ > From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU Mon Aug 16 13:45:41 1999 From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:45:41 -0400 Subject: SQUATTING Message-ID: At 12:01 AM 8/16/99 -0700, "M. Rudge" wrote: >Does anyone know where the term squatting (as in the unlawful occupation of >abandoned buildings by the homeless) originated? The term is widely >used in Europe and the United States. If anyone has any clues or clues to >where I might be able to find such information I would be very thankful. >michelle > OED2 squat v., meanings 9a and 9c: 9a. To settle upon new, uncultivated, or unoccupied land without any legal title and without the payment of rent. Orig. U.S. Freq. const. on or upon (land). 1800 Mississippi Territorial Archives (1906) 212, I wish also to be instructed for my Conduct towards those people Squatting or establishing themselves upon the Public Lands. 1829 Marryat F. Mildmay xxi, He was a Kentucky man, of the Ohio, where he had `squatted', as we say. 1854 Thoreau Walden (1863) 70 As for a habitat, if I were not permitted still to squat, I might purchase one acre. 1884 St. James's Gaz. 20 June 6/1 The ancestors of many of the present freeholders began to squat upon the uncultivated slopes of the hills. 9c. To occupy an uninhabited building illegally (esp. said of a group of homeless people organized for this purpose); to live as a squatter (squatter n.1 1 d). 1880 Dixon Windsor IV. xxix. 269 Paupers had squatted in many of the towers. 1937 `G. Orwell' Road to Wigan Pier v. 81 In one town I remember a whole colony of them who were squatting, more or less illicitly, in a derelict house which was practically falling down. 1946 Daily Worker 9 Sept. 4/3 We...decided to assist homeless people to squat in certain of these buildings. 1969 Listener 15 May 665/1 No one expects to see 40,000 people squatting this year as there were 23 years ago. 1969 Peace News 13 June 5/1 One startling realisation...is how few is the number of families that have had the courage to squat. 1980 Oxf. Compan. Law 1171/2 Persons may squat in buildings by reason of inability to find other accommodation and may do so deliberately as a protest against shortage of housing in the area. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Aug 16 15:11:08 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:11:08 EDT Subject: specialisms Message-ID: >From another discussion group: < . . . The programe include my own specialisms, video and ESP, and it also it includes what I think is a first anywhere, an MA Principles of Interpreting. . . .> Is SPECIALISMS normal English? From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU Mon Aug 16 15:30:41 1999 From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:30:41 -0400 Subject: specialisms Message-ID: At 11:11 AM 8/16/99 EDT, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: >>>From another discussion group: > >< . . . The programe include my own specialisms, video and ESP, and it also it >includes what I think is a first anywhere, an MA Principles of >Interpreting. . . .> > >Is SPECIALISMS normal English? > "Specialism" occurs fifteen times in OED2. OED2's citations make it look like an Anglicism. Note "programe" (presumably a typo for the UK spelling "programme") in the quote you give. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Aug 16 15:43:03 1999 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:43:03 -0400 Subject: specialisms Message-ID: Ron, Could it be a nonce-formation motivated by resistence to the "chef" or "cooking" interpretation of "specialties" or ("specialities")? I find it a little clumsy to say that my "specialty" is sociolinguistics (when it is really barbeque). Of course, it could be just nonnative speaker English (in which case our wheels are spinning agin for naught). dInIs >>>From another discussion group: > >< . . . The programe include my own specialisms, video and ESP, and it also it >includes what I think is a first anywhere, an MA Principles of >Interpreting. . . .> > >Is SPECIALISMS normal English? Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From SwainB at MOODYS.COM Mon Aug 16 15:43:30 1999 From: SwainB at MOODYS.COM (Swain, Bill) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:43:30 -0400 Subject: Dri-ki Message-ID: Does anyone know the derivation of the term "dri-ki" or "dry-kye"? I have heard it used by old-timers in Maine to refer to driftwood. Does it refer to a specific type of driftwood? From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Mon Aug 16 16:02:45 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:02:45 -0400 Subject: Dri-ki Message-ID: The following on-line glossary provides some info: http://www.npmb.com/glossary/index.htm#D "Dri-ki - Dead, weathered trees and stumps, as a result of long term flooding (like from a dam). Stumps eventually uproot and float downwind or downstream, creating a pile of debris, or dri-ki." Usage, hyphenated, at: http://www.northernoutdoors.com/NO497/Jerryk.html Manufacturer of same name at: http://www.netpets.org/mfgs/d.html Couldn't find specific derivation info. George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Mon Aug 16 16:15:15 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:15:15 -0400 Subject: SQUATTING Message-ID: Depending on the laws of a given state, squatting could be something as 'simple' as walking/driving across someone's property, on a regular basis, and establishing the legal right, after several years, to continue to cross that property. In the 1950s, I heard references to squatter's rights, when used with private property. Later, I was told that the legal nicety dealt with 'notorious use'. Again, the basic differences are in the laws of the various states. George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Mon Aug 16 16:25:20 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:25:20 -0400 Subject: Dry-kye Message-ID: Usage of dry-kye at "Ellery Queen Mystery Magazine: Fiction Index": http://www.hycyber.com/MYST/EQ_wa.html Have no idea about the specific reference. George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Mon Aug 16 16:27:38 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 12:27:38 -0400 Subject: origin of "ansible"? Message-ID: "Ansible" is a word first used in science fiction (according to all I've ever seen said about it) by Ursula K. LeGuin, for a fictional communications device that would function instantaneously and therefore would make conversations feasible on an interstellar scale. Radio, laser, and all other currently known or theorized media are subject to the lightspeed limit of 300,000 kps (186,000 miles/sec); if you sent a question to someone at the nearest star to Sol and they replied at once, you'd have to wait nearly eight years to get your answer, and proportionally longer for more distant stars. For many star systems that are settled in LeGuin's Hainish stories, you'd be dead before the answer came. The attached question was just asked in rec.arts.sf.written, although I have wondered about it for quite a while, as have many sf readers. This is the first I'd heard of the "talking-board" attribution. Until now my best guess, totally unsubstantiated, was that she had coined the word as a deliberate reduction, because it would allow you to ask questions that are "answerable" in your lifetime. Can anyone substantiate or amplify the connection ascribed here, or provide some etymological information? -- Mark "Someone's sent out the New Australian Grammar to Malaya nearly a century before it was invented, and I'm going to be all day sorting it out." -- Diana Wynne Jones, _A Tale of Time City_ <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>> From: kmaroney at crossover.com (Kevin J. Maroney) Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written Subject: Re: So... does any SF author get credit for the Internet? Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:46:16 GMT ross_presser at imtek.com (Ross Presser) wrote: >Come to think of it, did Blish invent this? U.K. Le Guin used the ansible >in "The Word for World is Forest". Blish had an instantaneous radio in the >Cities in Flight books, but he called it the Dirac. The ansible appears in most of Le Guin's Hainish stories, including _The Left Hand of Darkness_ and is center stage in _The Dispossessed_. As nearly as I can tell, she did not coin the term. I have been trying for years to rediscover which dictionary I discovered the term in, without success, but it originally referred to a "talking-board", a slate covered with the letters of the alphabet. Mutes communicated with non-mutes by spelling out letters with a pointer. Kevin Maroney | kmaroney at crossover.com Kitchen Staff Supervisor The New York Review of Science Fiction http://ebbs.english.vt.edu/olp/nyrsf/nyrsf.html From kmaroney at CROSSOVER.COM Mon Aug 16 17:47:36 1999 From: kmaroney at CROSSOVER.COM (Kevin J. Maroney) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:47:36 -0400 Subject: origin of "ansible"? In-Reply-To: <852567CF.005A56DE.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com> Message-ID: At 12:27 PM 8/16/99 -0400, Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com wrote: >The attached question was just asked in rec.arts.sf.written, although >I have wondered about it for quite a while, as have many sf readers. >This is the first I'd heard of the "talking-board" attribution. Until now >my best guess, totally unsubstantiated, was that she had coined the word >as a deliberate reduction... As I said in my post, I encountered the word in a dictionary sometime in the late 1980s, but have not been able to find it again since. If anyone here does know of it, please let me know! -- Kevin Maroney | Crossover Technologies kmaroney at crossover.com | (212) 777-1190 From stephen.harper at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Aug 16 17:49:16 1999 From: stephen.harper at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Steve Harper) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 13:49:16 -0400 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?B?UmU6ICAgICAgu9i4tDogICAgICBSZTogaWNlZCB0ZWE=?= Message-ID: In my part of the South: Fayetteville, NC, the "ice" or "iced" is a given. One orders tea. Some restaurants now ask whether it should be "sweeten" [sic] however, so it comes out something like sway'-ten tay-ee. Regards, Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: gjxy To: Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 20:12 Subject: ????: Re: iced tea > Prof.Benjamin, > The "ice tea"--"iced tea" is like the"go fish"--"gold fish" , is it? > > > > > |My gut feeling is that "ice tea" is a southernism, and not something that > is > |written very often; i.e., you go into a restaurant and order "ice tea" (the > |d and the t becoming indistinguishable). These same people may write it > |either way, with or without the d. And it seems from Nexis that "iced tea" > |is the predominate written form. > | > |Conversely, if it is a southernism, the d of "iced" is never pronounced, > |even though the speaker may write it with the d. > | > |Jessie > |----- Original Message ----- > |From: Barnhart > |To: > |Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 3:11 PM > |Subject: iced tea > | > | > |> My curiosity has been stirred up. In one of Popik's recent quotations > |> there is a reference to ice tea being more common in Texas. > |> > |> > "So much tea is consumed here year-round that you might even call > |> iced > |> >tea 'the national beverage of Texas.' Historically, it is called > |> 'ice' tea > |> >in Texas. Iced tea was created by an Indian tea merchant who couldn't > |> sell > |> >his hot tea at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904." > |> >--"Tea Pleasures," HOUSTON CHRONICLE, 26 July 1995. > |> > |> I have not found any reference yet in dialect dictionaries as to the > |> dialect variation of ice vs. iced tea. > |> > |> DAE has only iced tea. > |> DA has only iced tea. > |> WU3 has iced tea as the main entry and ice tea with a cross reference. > |> OED has no reference to either. > |> OEDs has no reference to either. > |> Cent. Dict. has only iced tea. > |> DARE has no reference to either. > |> AmDiDic has no reference to either. > |> > |> Nexis shows 24,500 articles for iced tea > |> Nexis shows 4,200 articles for ice tea. > |> > |> Has anyone a feeling for possible geographical or social distribution > |> for these two terms? > |> > |> Regards, > |> David K. Barnhart > |> barnhart at highlands.com > From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Mon Aug 16 21:22:53 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 17:22:53 -0400 Subject: just for fun Message-ID: This was forwarded to me under the Subject line "Unfit for Publication" by a chain of friends. I pass it on here by permission of the author (vide infra). -- Mark <<<<<>>>>> Dear WESSies: The following "news item" was rejected for the Personal & Institutional News column of the upcoming Fall WESS Newsletter for the very simple reason that it is fictional. But you need to see it anyway: ********** Our colleague Hypo Kondria, Third Assistant Vice Chair Pro Tem in one of the minor departments at the library of the Institute for Really Ancient Greek Political and Polygraph Studies at the Winnemucca Campus of the University of North Central Nevada (WC of the UNCN), has just had his book-length manuscript, "The Birth of Democracy from the Spirit of Olive Oil," rejected for the 153rd time. In what his sister Meta deems a "brilliant politico-linguistic study," he theorizes that the word "oligarchy" was first devised as "olivarchy" and referred to the few really big olive grove owners who monopolized early politics on the Peloponnesian plateau. Then, due to the "Fourth Phoneme Phenomenon," the voiced labio-dental fricative /v/ of "olivarchy" transmogrified to the voiced velar plosive /g/ in a stunning confirmation of "Gerner's Law." Likewise, says Hypo, the word "democrat" came from the many poor olive sellers who would "demo" their wares which they carried in "crates." These early "demo-crates" became "democrats." Those who reaped olives and took the profits, he explains, were known as "reap-olivans," which morphed to "republicans." His latest manuscript rejection was at a Greek linguistics trade show in Salt Lake City where a tornado thoroughly shredded it before carrying it away. Having had his manuscript rejected by numerous vanity publishers in Reno, Las Vegas and Elko, Hypo is now going to submit his stunning etymologies to some prestigious university presses in the Northeast. ................................................ Richard Hacken European Studies Bibliographer Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah 84602, USA e-mail: Richard_Hacken at byu.edu phone: (801) 378-2374 webpages: http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/ ................................................ From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Mon Aug 16 22:32:23 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:32:23 -0400 Subject: Mania, Divorces and Spent Change Message-ID: Anyone have any idea who said something about "the world is mania, divorces and spent change"? I looked in Lexis-Nexis, Dow Jones, JStor, ProQuest, MUSE, Making of America, four different Internet search engines, and a few other places, and I can't find it. It sounds like an Oscar Wilde quote, but that didn't seem to pan out. -- Grant Barrett World New York http://www.worldnewyork.com/ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 17 02:35:35 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:35:35 EDT Subject: "Suicide by Cop" Message-ID: "Suicide by Cop" ran on today's CBS Evening News. It's at www.cbs.com/flat/story.176794.html. It occurs when someone wants to commit suicide and wants the police to shoot, and pretends to have a gun (some have toy guns). I don't like the phrase--it sounds as if the cop is committing suicide (it's _by_ him). "'Suicide by Cop' a growing phenomenon in the U.S." was in the GUARDIAN, 29 December 1994. The earliest ProQuest hit is "Suicide by Cop," THE POLICE CHIEF, July 1993, pg. 24. Did Clinton Van Zandt (the story's author) coin it? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 17 05:26:26 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 01:26:26 EDT Subject: "Till hell freezes over!" Message-ID: The RANDOM HOUSE DICTIONARY OF POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS (Have I done every one of these?) has this on page 337: _Till hell freezes over._ This anonymous saying has been traced back to the 1910s-1920s. P. G. Wodehouse (1881-1975) was among the first to use the saying. F. Scott Fitzgerald (1896-1940) used to end his letters with "Yours till hell freezes over." _Until_ may substitute for _till_. The saying is listed in the 1989 collection _Modern Proverbs and Proverbial Sayings_ by Bartlett Jere Whiting.*** (Three stars=very frequent use--ed.) Eric Partridge's A DICTIONARY OF CATCH PHRASES has: _'til (or till) hell freezes over_ is a c.p. letter-ending: ? originally Canadian: late C19-20; little used after c. 1940 and, by 1975, virtually obsolete. Cf--indeed, see--_yours to a cinder_. I disagree strongly--it's not "Canadian" and certainly not "virtually obsolete." Jonathon Green's DICTIONARY OF SLANG has "(1910s+) for a very long or indefinite time." This is from the NEW YORK TRIBUNE, 5 March 1868 (I was looking for "carpetbagger"), pg. 4, col. 6: A Conservative State Convention in North Carolina has nominated Zebulon B. Vance for Governor, and for minor offices men of his political stripe. As nothing can give a more satisfactory illustration of a man's opinions than his own words, we take the liberty of putting ex-Gov. Vance in the witness-box. Listen to Zebulon B. Vance as he addresses a regiment of Confederate soldiers: "Boys, fight till hell freezes over, and then fight on the ice." "Fight until you fill hell so full of Yankees that their feet will stick out the windows." (...) In early 1995, I went to North Carolina to do some research for my historical play based on Albion Tourgee's A FOOL'S ERRAND. A wonderful drawing by "O. Henry" of the "carpetbagger" Tourgee is in the Greensboro historical museum. A Civil War speech by this same North Carolina Governor Zebulon B. Vance is responsible for popularizing the nickname "Tar Heel." Did I post that? From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 17 05:26:28 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 01:26:28 EDT Subject: Bronx cocktail & Rickey; Strap-Hanger Message-ID: RICKEY (continued) Two more versions. This is from the NEW YORK WORLD (there's a good photo here), 24 April 1903, pg. 3, col. 4: The drink known as the "rickey" was named for Joe Rickey, but not by him. Rickey had a habit of drinking in the morning a small "hooker" of Bourbon whiskey into which he had squeezed half a lime and poured a tumbler of water. One morning Fred Mussey walked into the place where Rickey did his drinking and said to the bartender: "Give me a Rickey!" "A which?" asked the bartender. "One of those things Rickey drinks." The drink was made in a long glass, with Bourbon whiskey, half a lime, a piece of ice and carbonic water. Rickey always contended that the use of rye whiskey or gin in a Rickey made it unfit for a gentleman to drink. From the NEW YORK TRIBUNE, 24 April 1903, pg. 9, col. 4: He exploited and popularized the gin rickey, though it is asserted Colonel Watterson christened the drink. It was at the St. Louis convention that nominated Tilden (1884?--ed.), so the story goes, that Colonel Watterson, after being locked in a room for eighteen hours, where he, as a member of the committee on resolutions had been trying to build a party platform, emerged, hot, tired and thirsty. Seeing Rickey, he called to him to join him in a cooling tipple. When asked by the bartender what he would have, Colonel Watterson, who had partaken of the beverage with Colonel Rickey before, said, "Oh, give me one of those--of those, ah--rickeys." And the rickey was launched. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BRONX COCKTAIL I'm working in the Bronx today. This is the origin of another old American drink name. From WHAT SHALL WE DRINK? (1934) by Magnus Bredenbek, pg. 13: MIXING A BRONX COCKTAIL The Bronx Cocktail, strange to say, was invented in Philadelphia, of all places! There it might have remained in obscurity had it not been for one Joseph Sormani, a Bronx restaurateur, who discovered it in the Quaker City in 1905. (This coincides with the OED cite--ed.) The original recipe has been greatly distorted in the course of years, but here's the original to guide you and to compare with the other recipes being used: Four parts of gin, one part of orange juice and one part of Italian Vermouth. Shake thoroughly in ice and serve. From the NEW YORK TIMES, 17 August 1947, pg. 17, col. 2: _JOSEPH S. SORMANI_ Joseph S. Sormani, retired Bronx restaurateur, who was said to have originated the Bronx cocktail, died Wednesday night in his home, 2322 Fish Avenue, the Bronx, after a brief illness. His age was 83. Born in Lake Como, Italy, Mr. Sormani came to the United States at the age of 18. He was proprietor of Sormani's restaurant at Pelham Parkway and Boston Road for thirty years until his retirement twelve years ago. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- STRAP-HANGER I take a subway to the Bronx. The OED has a London "straphanger" citation from 1905. The term was also used in New York--before the underground subway. This is the first paragraph of a long and illustrated article in the NEW YORK PRESS, 12 April 1903, magazine section, pg. 7, col. 3: _No Hope for the Strap-Hanger_ THERE is no hope for the strap-hanger. He will hang to his strap when the underground system is inaugurated next winter just as he hangs to his strap to-day. From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Tue Aug 17 14:12:33 1999 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:12:33 -0400 Subject: "Suicide by Cop" Message-ID: suicide-by-cop See The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 11.2). One of the interesting features there is the variant _police-assisted suicide_. Nexis reveals for suicide by cop and suicide-by-cop supplied a large number of examples--overwhelmingly American dating from 1989. Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] From AAllan at AOL.COM Tue Aug 17 21:52:44 1999 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:52:44 EDT Subject: ivory tower Message-ID: Has this been discussed before? I got an inquiry about "ivory tower" and find the explanations unsatisfying. The dictionaries cite a French source without explaining why it should be ivory. Charles Earle Funk, in "Heavens to Betsy," gives the exact source in French and English but still does not say why it's ivory. Funk: "When Charles-Augustin Sainte-Beuve, French literary critic of the early nineteenth century, coined this term he thought of it as applicable to the aerie of a poet, a place where he could retire from the world, a retreat. The term occurs in his own poem, Pensees d' Aout, written in October, 1837. . . ." But why ivory? - Allan Metcalf From vneufeldt at M-W.COM Wed Aug 18 00:07:04 1999 From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:07:04 -0400 Subject: ivory tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have wondered about this myself. A wild guess would be that it's just a ref to something otherwordly and/or romantic, as conjuring up the storied Orient in the old sense, where ivory and sandalwood and such came from. A tower of ivory would actually be pretty impractical and not at all strong, so the original image cannot have been of a fortress against the real world. But I would love to hear the real story and am waiting in breathless anticipation. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt, Merriam-Webster, Inc. 47 Federal Street, P.O. Box 281 Springfield, MA 01102 Tel. (413) 734-3134 ext 124 Fax (413) 827-7262 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of AAllan at AOL.COM > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 5:53 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: ivory tower > > > Has this been discussed before? I got an inquiry about "ivory > tower" and find > the explanations unsatisfying. The dictionaries cite a French > source without > explaining why it should be ivory. Charles Earle Funk, in > "Heavens to Betsy," > gives the exact source in French and English but still does not > say why it's > ivory. > > Funk: "When Charles-Augustin Sainte-Beuve, French literary critic of the > early nineteenth century, coined this term he thought of it as > applicable to > the aerie of a poet, a place where he could retire from the > world, a retreat. > The term occurs in his own poem, Pensees d' Aout, written in > October, 1837. . > . ." > > But why ivory? > > - Allan Metcalf > From ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Aug 18 00:27:54 1999 From: ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM (Jane Clark) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:27:54 PDT Subject: ivory tower Message-ID: Wasn't it the color of Rapunzel's hair? >From: AAllan at AOL.COM >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: ivory tower >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:52:44 EDT > >Has this been discussed before? I got an inquiry about "ivory tower" and >find >the explanations unsatisfying. The dictionaries cite a French source >without >explaining why it should be ivory. Charles Earle Funk, in "Heavens to >Betsy," >gives the exact source in French and English but still does not say why >it's >ivory. > >Funk: "When Charles-Augustin Sainte-Beuve, French literary critic of the >early nineteenth century, coined this term he thought of it as applicable >to >the aerie of a poet, a place where he could retire from the world, a >retreat. >The term occurs in his own poem, Pensees d' Aout, written in October, 1837. >. >.. ." > >But why ivory? > >- Allan Metcalf _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From jeclapp at WANS.NET Wed Aug 18 07:42:24 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 03:42:24 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Re: Urban Legends Message-ID: A couple of weeks ago we mentioned a couple of urban legends sites. Here's another, though it is a rather puny list: http://www.netsquirrel.com/combatkit/ James E. Clapp From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Aug 18 14:51:12 1999 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:51:12 -0400 Subject: Unfair coins Message-ID: Colleagues, Do any of you have any technical information about the preparation of "unfair" coins for petty games-of-chance. In my old neighborhood, the "filing" of coins (it was hypothesized) would remove some "weight" from that side of the coin and increase the probability that the other side would come "up." I don't follow this physics of this theory. If weight is removed from one side, the "center" simply changes, but the odds of heads or tails stays the same. Right? Perhaps "uneven" weight removal would do the job. If so, how? dInIs PS: This is for theoretical purposes only; I still have my job. Dennis R. Preston Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Thu Aug 19 02:02:19 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:02:19 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: Camion Code, new phonemic writing system] Message-ID: I thought you guys might enjoy a little chuckle. Note that the URL inside the text is the correct one - the one at the bottom has a typo. A couple of us on the Unicode list have responded, mentioning the futility of trying to revamp the way English is written, and that phonemic/phonetic writing results in different written forms for different dialects. (Not to mention her overly punctuated writing style! Tough to read.) Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: JoAnne Marie Subject: Camion Code, new phonemic writing system Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Size: 7280 URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 19 04:16:22 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:16:22 EDT Subject: "Afrikaner Glossary" in KAT AND THE KINGS Message-ID: KAT AND THE KINGS is a new Broadway musical that will open tomorrow (Thursday) and be reviewed in your Friday newspapers. It's a transfer from Cape Town via London, where it won the 1999 Laurence Olivier Award for Best New Musical. I saw it a few days early--in "previews." The show is about some kids in the 1950s forming a singing group (like the Four Seasons, the Teenagers, et al.), set against the background of the apartheid regime. Nelson Mandela saw it and praised the authors to the skies. It is a good show. It is entertaining. It didn't strike me as a Broadway musical, however--perhaps it's a Las Vegas revue. It's almost all songs (about 40 of 'em), with very little drama. For what it is, it's well done. It's impossible not to enjoy it. It reminded me of a South African FOREVER PLAID (a very successful show--as an Off-Broadway musical and a road show). The songs and the concept are like SMOKEY JOE'S CAFE (a revue based on the 1950s songs of Lieber and Stoller). The _very_ brief racial drama reminded me of DINAH WAS and DREAMGIRLS. They form a group, they buy new outfits, they learn how to dance, they cut a record, they split up--stop me if you've heard this plotline before. The songs were wonderful--too wonderful. I felt like rising from my seat: "EXCUSE ME! MISTER SONGWRITER PERSON! IS THAT A RIPOFF OR AN HOMAGE??" "O.K. Bazaars" was part of the curtain design. The following was put in the PLAYBILL: AN AFRIKANER GLOSSARY ("KAT AND THE KINGS" PLAYBILL, pg. 26) WORD PRONUNCIATION TRANSLATION kwela African music Ou oh guy Ouens owens guys Broer brew brother/friend My blah may blah best friend Chommies chommy friends Goose goose girl Goosa goose-sah girl Lightie lightey young person BJ BeeJay yokel/greenhorn Boland Boorland rural area Skollie skolly lout//ruffian Ou pel oh pal old friend Lekker lecker terrific Morgan's Pomade Hair gel Jarmans Men's shoes (brand name) Dop booze Zol a joint Langa A township in Cape Town Nyanga A township in Cape Town Guguleta A township in Cape Town Walmer Estate A residential area above District 6, which was reserved for Coloured people. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 19 04:16:20 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:16:20 EDT Subject: Ivory Tower Message-ID: This is from the BARNHART DICTIONARY OF ETYMOLOGY: The phrase _ivory tower_, meaning a condition of seclusion or withdrawal from the realities of life, is first recorded in English as a translation of the French _tour d'ivoire_ (1911), coined by the French critic and poet Charles A. Sainte-Beuve. The English phrase was then used as a loan translation from the French by Henry James in his novel _The Ivory Tower_ (1916)and popularized by Hart Crane, Ezra Pound, H. G. Wells, Aldous Huxley, and others. Burton Stevenson's quotation book has: Tower of ivory. (Tour d'ivoire.) CHARLES-AUGUSTIN SAINTE-BEUVE, _Pensees d'Aout: A' M. Villemain_. St. 3 (1837). Sainte-Beuve compares Victor Hugo to a feudal baron with his armor on, and then says of Alfred de Vigny, Et Vigny, plus secret, Comme en sa tour d'ivoire, avant midi rentrait. (Citations from Oscar Wilde 1895, Riben Dario 1900, Jules de Gaultier 1908, and Vachel Lindsay 1914 follow--ed.) Checks on the English Poetry and English Drama databases show four "ivory tower" citations before 1700: Francis Quarles, DIVINE POEMS, "Sonnet Sung By Solomon the King" (1632): They Necke doth represent an Ivory Tower, In perfect purenesse, and united power. George Sandys, A PARAPHRASE UPON THE SONG OF SOLOMON (1641): ...Thy Neck, an Ivory Tower displayes... Samuel Slater, EPITHALAMIUM: THE SONG OF SOLOMON (1653): Like to a Tower of Ivory, so is thy neck for state... Samuel Woodford, A PARAPHRASE UPON THE CANTICLES (1679): Thy Neck is like a Tower of Ivory, Hung with the Trophies of Love's Victory. This is from the SONG OF SOLOMON 7:4: Thy neck _is_ a tower of ivory; thine eyes _like_ the fishpools in Heshbon, by the gate of Bathrabbim: thy nose _is_ as the tower of Lebanon which looketh toward Damascus. Check the Anchor Bible series (Doubleday publishers) for commentary on this line. From harview at MONTANA.COM Thu Aug 19 05:48:06 1999 From: harview at MONTANA.COM (Scott Swanson) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 23:48:06 -0600 Subject: Ivory Tower In-Reply-To: <91a48718.24ecdf14@aol.com> Message-ID: Does the term gain some reinforcement from the "ivied walls" behind which education occurs (particularly in the Ivy League?)? And interesting to note that all of the pre-1700's quotes refer to "neck": perhaps there is a contrast with the (red)necks of those who picture academicians as living in ivory towers? (; > Checks on the English Poetry and English Drama databases show four >"ivory tower" citations before 1700: > >Francis Quarles, DIVINE POEMS, "Sonnet Sung By Solomon the King" (1632): >They Necke doth represent an Ivory Tower, In perfect purenesse, and united >power. > >George Sandys, A PARAPHRASE UPON THE SONG OF SOLOMON (1641): >...Thy Neck, an Ivory Tower displayes... > >Samuel Slater, EPITHALAMIUM: THE SONG OF SOLOMON (1653): >Like to a Tower of Ivory, so is thy neck for state... > >Samuel Woodford, A PARAPHRASE UPON THE CANTICLES (1679): >Thy Neck is like a Tower of Ivory, Hung with the Trophies of Love's Victory. > > This is from the SONG OF SOLOMON 7:4: > >Thy neck _is_ a tower of ivory; thine eyes _like_ the fishpools in Heshbon, >by the gate of Bathrabbim: thy nose _is_ as the tower of Lebanon which >looketh toward Damascus. > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 19 12:03:38 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:03:38 EDT Subject: Something for everyone Message-ID: "Something for everyone--a comedy tonight." --Stephen Sondheim, A FUNNY THING HAPPENED ON THE WAY TO THE FORUM (1962). I ran across a large advertisement in the NEW YORK TIMES, 24 September 1956, pg. 13: "'Something for Everyone' Is The Keynote Of New Season On Channel 4." The Periodicals Contents Index turned up 6 hits between 1953 and 1956. The earliest record before 1953 is "Something for Everyone at Atlantic City" in the NEA BULLETIN, Jan. 1938, pg. 23. The earliest "something for everybody" on the PCI is "Something for Everybody," in the Broadcast Drama section of the LISTENER, Nov. 1937, pg. 1144. It must be an early catch phrase. The Making of America database has it in quotes in the MICHIGAN UNIVERSITY MAGAZINE (1867), pg. 242: ...the publishers say it will be their aim to present in its pages "something for everybody," but those who are fond of reading advertisements have more than their proper share. There was a book SOMETHING FOR EVERYBODY (1846) by Richard Carlton. I haven't seen it yet. Did P. T. Barnum popularize this phrase? The American Museum opened in New York City in 1841. From AAllan at AOL.COM Thu Aug 19 15:04:03 1999 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:04:03 EDT Subject: Brickmush ? Message-ID: Here's a question. If you have an answer, please send it to Kennedy at patkenne at kcls.org as well as to ADS-L. Thanks - Allan Metcalf ----------------------- I work at the King County Library, and I have a patron who has a question that has stumped me. She heard the term "brickmush" used on an old radio program called "Vic and Sade". I have exhausted my resources here using every dictionary and slang dictionary available to me. Could you tell me what this term means or refer me to someone who can? Pat Kennedy Answer Line King County Library System From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 19 15:57:29 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:57:29 EDT Subject: Mania, Divorces and Spent Change Message-ID: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Bapopik at aol.com Subject: Re: Mania, Divorces and Spent Change Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:56:01 EDT Size: 932 URL: From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Aug 19 17:45:44 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:45:44 -0400 Subject: Brickmush ? Message-ID: Brick mush, as two words? A reference to corn meal mush sold as a solid brick, shaped by a small loaf pan? George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Thu Aug 19 19:11:04 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:11:04 -0500 Subject: "Suicide by Cop" Message-ID: Mr. Barnhart, Does your Dictionary Companion by any chance have a reference to "soft opening." The context is found in an article in the Money Section (C, p. 1) of the NOLA Times-Picayune, "Contractors said the restaurant could hold a soft opening in November and an official opening in December." I have never seen or heard this expression before--the meaning of course is quite clear. ----- Original Message ----- From: Barnhart To: Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 9:12 AM Subject: Re: "Suicide by Cop" > suicide-by-cop > > See The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 11.2). > > One of the interesting features there is the variant _police-assisted > suicide_. > > Nexis reveals for suicide by cop and suicide-by-cop supplied a large > number of examples--overwhelmingly American dating from 1989. > > Regards, > David K. Barnhart, Editor > The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly] From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 19 20:00:52 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:00:52 EDT Subject: Political Inoculation Message-ID: POLITICAL INOCULATION This is from the NEW YORK PRESS, August 18-24, 1999, pg. 11, by John Ellis: _Inoculation_ In the political trade, Hillary Rodham Clinton's interview with _Talk_ magazine is called "inoculation." Although the metaphor is inexact, the idea is straightforward. A candidate has a political vulnerability that needs to be addressed. The candidate addresses said vulernability in a favorable venue on his or her own terms at a time when few, if any, voters are paying attention. Once the vulnerability has been addressed and the press has had its fill, it's on to the next thing and never look back. The candidate and the campaign apparatus declare all further mention of the subject verboten. "Inoculation" isn't an entry in William Safire's NEW POLITICAL DICTIONARY (1993). A good article is the WASHINGTON POST, 26 April 1988, pg. A5: _"Inoculation" Politics: Candidates Try to Get In the First Shot_ (...) In what has become known as "inoculation politics," candidates who know they are vulnerable on a potentially lethal issue like Social Security raise it early to immunize themselves from an attack that comes too late for recovery. FORTUNE, 25 April 1988, pg. 341, described New York Times columnist Hedrick Smith's book, THE POWER GAME: There's the preemptive leak, which settles an internal debate over whether to make information public by simply leaking it; the inoculation leak, used to break forthcoming bad news--for example, by announcing that interest rates seem likely to rise in a few months; the shortcut leak, which forces immediate presidential attention to a problem by getting it in the press; and the brag leak, which makes someone look good by revealing a brilliant inside maneuver. The SAN DIEGO UNION-TRIBUNE, 17 June 1986, pg. A3: "Cranston's strategists freely admit they are engaing in political 'inoculation'--that is, presenting the lesse-known Zschau's record to the voters on their terms rather than his." -------------------------------------------------------- HOT DOG (continued, of course) This is from the PITTSBURGH POST-GAZETTE (the _second_ torching of my work this summer--"Show Me" was never corrected), 12 August 1999, pg. G3: If it weren't for a newspaper cartoonist, vendors at Pirate games might still be barking, "Get you red hot dachshund sausages!" "Hot dogs" were still something of a novelty in 1906 America, and they went by a variety of names: frankfurters, franks, wieners, red hots, and dachshund sausages. But during a New York Giants game that year, Hearst newspaper cartoonist Tad Dorgan was so inspired by a vendor yelling, "Get you red hot dachshund sausages," that he decided to sketch a dachshund smeared with mustard encased in a bun. It is believed Dorgan couldn't spell the word dachshund so he settled on dog--the caption read "Come get your hot dogs." A Dow Jones check shows that the History Channel not only got things wrong with their documentary HISTORY ON A BUN and with their MILLENNIUM MINUTE, but in _another_ documentary as well. This is from the LOS ANGELES TIMES, 19 July 1999, pg. D2: What: "Modern Marvels: Baseball Parks" Where: The History Channel, tonight, 7 and 11 (...) Before each commercial break of the one-hour program, interesting facts are shown about ball parks. For instance: In 1905, red hot dachshunds on a roll were popular items at ball parks. The name was eventually shortened to hot dogs after a newspaper columnist complained he couldn't spell dachshund. From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Aug 19 20:22:35 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:22:35 -0400 Subject: Soft opening. Message-ID: Quite a few hits, using AltaVista's search engine. Very quick review showed one use at a site dated 1 March 1996. [Didn't realize that usage was widespread.] George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From patkenne at KCLS.ORG Thu Aug 19 20:54:36 1999 From: patkenne at KCLS.ORG (Pat Kennedy) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:54:36 -0700 Subject: Brickmush ? In-Reply-To: <37BC42C7.A1727902@ark.ship.edu> Message-ID: No sorry, because brickmush was applied to a man as in the brickmush man is coming tomorrow. But Thanks anyway. On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, G S C wrote: > Brick mush, as two words? A reference to corn meal mush sold as a solid > brick, shaped by a small loaf pan? > > George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu > Shippensburg University > From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Aug 19 22:11:13 1999 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:11:13 -0400 Subject: Brickmush ? Message-ID: Looks as though Barry's concern with context, and one of his accompanying statements, might be closer to the mark. Several years ago, a neighbor of mine mentioned that some re-plastering work had to be done in his house. [His home had a layer of plaster on top of drywall sheets.] He spoke (several times) of having been lucky to find a mushman to do the plaster work. According to my neighbor, mushmen were folk who could apply plaster to wall lathe, or apply a layer of plaster on top of wallboard or drywall. The mushman did not work with drywall, as in installing it, but he would apply plaster over top of drywall, or patch a hole in drywall. [My presumption was that the plaster mixture was the mush.] In any event, in this era, mushmen were difficult to find. Generally, it can be presumed that standard wall-plaster is better than corn meal, for patching walls. Hope that this info is closer to the mark, even though it doesn't fully provide the answer for brickmush man. George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu Shippensburg University From gsmith at EWU.EDU Thu Aug 19 23:39:24 1999 From: gsmith at EWU.EDU (Grant Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:39:24 -0800 Subject: CPF reminder Message-ID: This is a last minute reminder of two CFPs -- ANS meetings in Chicago with MLA (12/27-30) and with LSA (1/6-9) CALLS FOR PAPERS 1. Annual Meeting--American Name Society Dec. 27-30, 1999 Chicago Renaissance Hotel At least twelve panels are currently planned. Presentations should be timed for a maximum of 20 minutes, plus 10 minutes for discussion. All disciplinary approaches are welcomed--anthropological, psychological, sociological, linguistic, literary, philosophical, geographic, or historical. Subject matter is also open, including personal names, geographic names, corporate names, team names, names in literature, and cultural or linguistic function. Short abstracts (150 words max.) should be sent by September 1 to: Grant Smith, President, American Name Society. Submission as part of an email message (not an attachment) is preferred . For those without email, the postal address is Eastern Washington University, MS-25, Cheney, WA 99004 or Fax: 509-359-4269. All proposals will be blind refereed, and presenters will be notified by September 20. Abstracts of all presentations will be published in annual "Proceedings." 2. Special Session on Onomastics Joint Meeting American Name Society and Linguistic Society of America January 6-9, 2000 Chicago Send an abstract of 100-200 words (20-minute paper) by 8/25/99 to Abstracts may be submitted by e-mail to Donald M. Lance or, Professor Donald M. Lance Department of English l07 Tate Hall University of Missouri Columbia, Missouri 65211 Grant W. Smith, President Phone: 509-359-6023 American Name Society Fax: 509-359-4269 Prof. English/Coord. Humanities Email: gsmith at ewu.edu Eastern Washington University, MS-25 526 Fifth St. Cheney, WA 99004-2431 From mcclay at PROQC.COM.TW Thu Aug 19 16:17:54 1999 From: mcclay at PROQC.COM.TW (Russ McClay) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:17:54 +0800 Subject: Abraham Lincolns tone of voice and accent Message-ID: PTcurtis at AOL.COM wrote: > > I have always been curious as to how the Gettysburg address may have actually > sounded when delivered by President Lincoln. Does any one know of any studies > that may be able to reconstruct Lincolns voice based on stories and more > scientific studies of his throat structure from photographs and dialect of > his era and locality. Having just sat through Great Moments with Mr Lincoln at Disneyland and looking at the exhibits about how the project was developed I would imagine dialect was an important part of the work. Russ From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Fri Aug 20 02:22:54 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 21:22:54 -0500 Subject: Soft opening. Message-ID: Thanks; neither did I. I wonder whether the March '96 date is the earliest? ----- Original Message ----- From: G S C To: Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 3:22 PM Subject: Soft opening. > Quite a few hits, using AltaVista's search engine. Very quick review > showed one use at a site dated 1 March 1996. [Didn't realize that usage > was widespread.] > > George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu > Shippensburg University From pmeier at EAGLE.CC.UKANS.EDU Fri Aug 20 02:07:31 1999 From: pmeier at EAGLE.CC.UKANS.EDU (Paul Meier) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 21:07:31 -0500 Subject: on-line dialects archive Message-ID: I invite your perusal of and suggestions about a small prototype project here at the University of Kansas. We have called it IDEA (International Dialects of English Archive) and it may be found at www.ukans.edu/~idea Please bear in mind that the primary constituents for this service are theatre and film artists. Although it has been put together on a shoestring budget, if IDEA can accommodate in its future development the needs of more diverse and more scholarly research agendas, that would please us too. All comments and suggestions gratefully received off-line. Paul Meier Associate Professor Theatre and Film University of Kansas -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 446 bytes Desc: Card for Paul Meier URL: From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Aug 20 06:13:05 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 02:13:05 EDT Subject: "Uniboob" Message-ID: Nike has had members of the U. S. women's soccer team promote the company's sports bras, which supposedly avoid "uniboob." The Nike site is at www.nike.com. (There is an entry for "the F-Word," but it means "Footwear.") "Uniboob" goes back to at least 1996 on a deja.com search. My guess is that the term was probably started by a women's magazine--Nexis will probably come close, but not give us the direct hit. From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Fri Aug 20 10:42:15 1999 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 06:42:15 -0400 Subject: "Uniboob" Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Bapopik at AOL.COM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Date: Friday, August 20, 1999 2:19 AM Subject: "Uniboob" > Nike has had members of the U. S. women's soccer team promote the >company's sports bras, which supposedly avoid "uniboob." > The Nike site is at www.nike.com. (There is an entry for "the F-Word," >but it means "Footwear.") > "Uniboob" goes back to at least 1996 on a deja.com search. My guess is >that the term was probably started by a women's magazine--Nexis will probably >come close, but not give us the direct hit. Monobreast might predate it. Though the oldest Deja hit is November '96, it was used at Mainframe Entertainment who produced the computer animated cartoon 'Reboot' from '94-'97. The first two years, the series aired on ABC on Saturday mornings, and Standards and Practices forbade a female character from having the usual arrangement. Internally, they referred to the resulting arrangement as a 'monobreast'. The third season aired only in the morally decadent foreign market (and recently on the Cartoon Network here in the States), so the company rejoiced in their newfound freedom to grace all the humanoid female characters with a more accurate image. Monobreast gets a September '97 hit in a video game newsgroup, undoubtedly from audience overlap, and is first spotted in regards to clothing in March of '98 on Deja. Monoboob goes back to February of '96, but is used exclusively in apparel discussions. Bruce From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG Fri Aug 20 12:21:23 1999 From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 08:21:23 -0400 Subject: Cows Message-ID: >From http://www.oregonlive.com:80/news/99/08/st081608.html "They bought a motor home, a good-sized one but not one of the Cows, or 'condominiums on wheels' as Bill Brand explains." From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Aug 20 13:28:46 1999 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 09:28:46 -0400 Subject: Nexis on soft opening Message-ID: The earliest Nexis evidence: LEVEL 1 - 2625 OF 2626 STORIES Copyright 1982 The Financial Times Limited Financial Times (London) February 16, 1982, Tuesday SECTION: SECTION III; Financial Times Survey; Qatar VI; Businessman's Guide; Pg. VI LENGTH: 1044 words BYLINE: Mary Frings BODY: ... on rare occasions when two major conferences coincide, or when the Qatar National Football Team descends in force on a hotel. But once the Sheraton Hotel comes into full operation (after its " soft" opening next week) there is likely to be an embarrassment of choice. The Gulf Hotel (at around $90 a night for a single room) is currently the most popular, although the neighbouring Oasis Hotel has a ... Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Fri Aug 20 14:28:32 1999 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:28:32 -0400 Subject: another meaning of soft opening Message-ID: Here's another meaning of soft opening. LEVEL 1 - 2624 OF 2626 STORIES Copyright 1982 The New York Times Company The New York Times July 27, 1982, Tuesday, Late City Final Edition SECTION: Section A; Page 21, Column 1; Sports Desk LENGTH: 878 words HEADLINE: TV SPORTS; NETWORKS ON GOLF: VARIED APPROACHES BYLINE: By Neil Amdur ... last four holes to win by six strokes. Setting the proper scene is critical to any continuing sports s tory. In golf, the mood is essential to a telecast. In contrast to NBC's soft opening, Bob Goodrich, the ABC producer, w as on target with a capsule news ''tease'' of the third-round l eaders and follow-ups on the significance of the Open, brief shots o f Sacramento and ... From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU Fri Aug 20 15:11:52 1999 From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:11:52 -0500 Subject: "Uniboob" Message-ID: > Nike has had members of the U. S. women's soccer team promote the >company's sports bras, which supposedly avoid "uniboob." > The Nike site is at www.nike.com. (There is an entry for "the F-Word," >but it means "Footwear.") > "Uniboob" goes back to at least 1996 on a deja.com search. My guess is >that the term was probably started by a women's magazine--Nexis will probably >come close, but not give us the direct hit. I doubt very much that it was started by a magazine--it more likely came out of casual conversation. It's probably one of those words that gets re-coined repeatedly (and everyone thinks they're the first one to do it--monosexual is like that too). I bought a dress in 1991 that gave me uniboob--I can't remember whether my pals and I called it uniboob--i think we called it "monobreast". Lynne Murphy Dept of English Baylor U Waco, TX 76798 From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Fri Aug 20 16:28:56 1999 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 12:28:56 -0400 Subject: Brickmush ? Message-ID: By analogy, perhaps the brickmush man applies "mortar mush" between bricks? Since I need to have repair work done on my fireplace, I'll ask about it. At 06:11 PM 8/19/99 -0400, you wrote: >Looks as though Barry's concern with context, and one of his >accompanying statements, might be closer to the mark. Several years >ago, a neighbor of mine mentioned that some re-plastering work had to be >done in his house. [His home had a layer of plaster on top of drywall >sheets.] He spoke (several times) of having been lucky to find a >mushman to do the plaster work. According to my neighbor, mushmen were >folk who could apply plaster to wall lathe, or apply a layer of plaster >on top of wallboard or drywall. The mushman did not work with drywall, >as in installing it, but he would apply plaster over top of drywall, or >patch a hole in drywall. [My presumption was that the plaster mixture >was the mush.] In any event, in this era, mushmen were difficult to >find. > >Generally, it can be presumed that standard wall-plaster is better than >corn meal, for patching walls. > >Hope that this info is closer to the mark, even though it doesn't fully >provide the answer for brickmush man. > >George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu >Shippensburg University > From SMH0915 at MAIL.ECU.EDU Fri Aug 20 18:28:30 1999 From: SMH0915 at MAIL.ECU.EDU (Healy, Shannon Michelle) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 14:28:30 -0400 Subject: REMOVAL Message-ID: Please remove me from your mailing list. Thank you Shannon From pulliam at IIT.EDU Fri Aug 20 19:28:10 1999 From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 14:28:10 -0500 Subject: port Message-ID: Has the programmer usage of _port_ as a transitive verb (presumably backformed from portable?) meaning "to adjust a program written for one platform (e.g. MacOS) to run on a different platform (e.g., Linux or Windows) been documented? I suspect it has, but my less-than-brand-new references here at home don't show it. Example: "Microsoft didn't just port its Windows version of Internet Explorer 4.5 to the MacOS, they wrote it from the ground up in native Mac code." Thanks! - Greg From lix at CWU.EDU Sat Aug 21 00:46:15 1999 From: lix at CWU.EDU (Xingzhong Li) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:46:15 -0800 Subject: Removal Message-ID: Please remove me from your list. From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Sat Aug 21 00:33:21 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:33:21 -0700 Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Message-ID: OK, from the Merriam-Webster "Word of the Day" site today (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/mwwod.pl): taradiddle * \tare-uh-DIH-dle or TARE-uh-dih-dle\ * (noun) 1 : fib *2 : pretentious nonsense Example sentence: Business writer Don Larson didn't mince words when he criticized a story as "the worst collection of falsehoods, fabrications, misrepresentations, deceptions and just plain old-fashioned taradiddle that I have ever read." Did you know? The true origin of "taradiddle" is unknown, but that doesn't mean you won't hear a lot of balderdash about its history. Some folks try to relate it to the verb "diddle" (meaning "to cheat"), but that hasn't been proven and may turn out to be poppycock. Then there's some tommyrot claiming it comes from the Old English verb "didrian," which meant "to deceive," but that couldn't be true unless "didrian" was somehow suddenly revived after eight or nine centuries of disuse. No one even knows when "taradiddle" was first used. It must have been long before it showed up in a 1796 dictionary of colloquial speech (where it was defined as a synonym of "fib"), but if we claimed we knew who said it first, we'd be dishing out pure applesauce. * Indicates the sense illustrated in the example sentence. --------------------------- I have my own theory: it comes from Scarlett O'Hara. After all, she used to say "fiddle-dee-dee" a lot, and her home was "Tara". Clearly it comes from "Gone with the Wind". There. Maybe I can get my etymology published all over the place! Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Aug 21 09:09:42 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 05:09:42 EDT Subject: "What's it to you?" Message-ID: WHAT'S IT TO YOU? The Making of America database works in some strange ways. It will NOT recognize "What's it to you?" It WILL recognize "What s it to you?" Couldn't they work out this kink?? Eric Partridge has "what's it to you?" (what concern is it of yours?) as a U.S. c.p. dating from c. 1919. However, he has "what's that to me?" from 1837, and states that it's US, esp. New England, C19-20. I found a bunch of "what's it to you?"/"what is it to you?"/"what's that to you?"/"what is that to you?" I haven't yet checked Accessible Archives. "What's that to you?" is on pg. 182 in POEMS AND PROSE WRITINGS (1830) by Richard Henry Dana. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- I'M FROM MISSOURI "I m from Missouri" was in the OVERLAND MONTHLY, December 1887, pg. 625, but no "Show Me" context was there. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- Maybe I'll do a monster posting of a few hundred antedates before my trip to Switzerland... From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Aug 21 14:32:55 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 07:32:55 PDT Subject: Dixie Message-ID: For what it's worth, I just ran across this at (http://freespace.virgin.net/john.cletheroe/usa_can/usa/dixie.htm). It gives the "dix" note and "[Mason-]Dixon" theory, along with the following, an interesting variant: ------- >From songs sung by black slaves about "Dixie's", the name of a slaveowner (possibly fictional) who treated slaves well. ------- DEJ _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU Sat Aug 21 22:40:03 1999 From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 17:40:03 -0500 Subject: "What's it to you?" Message-ID: >From: Bapopik at AOL.COM ... >Date: Sat, Aug 21, 1999, 4:09 AM >--------------------------------------------- >I'M FROM MISSOURI > > "I m from Missouri" was in the OVERLAND MONTHLY, December 1887, pg. 625, >but no "Show Me" context was there. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >--------------------------------------------- > Maybe I'll do a monster posting of a few hundred antedates before my >trip to Switzerland... Well, Barry, I'm from Missouri, so show me. And let me know if you come up with early "pronunciation spellings" of Missouri-uh. DMLance From gcohen at UMR.EDU Sun Aug 22 02:14:24 1999 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:14:24 -0600 Subject: "hot dog"--another correction Message-ID: In an Aug. 19 message, Barry Popik critically quotes two newspaper article s which repeat the erroneous treatment of the History Channel concerning the origin of "hot dog." But within the overall context of the History Channel's erroneous treatment, one mistake (already frequently made previously) deserves refutation: "It is believed Dorgan couldn't spell the word dachshund so he settled on dog--the caption read 'Come get your hot dogs'." For the record, T.A. Dorgan was not only a sports cartoonist but a sportswriter, and a very good one. Most likely, he was in fact able to spell "dachshund," but in any case, his newspaper office surely had a dictionary handy. Are we really supposed to believe that this very literate man was too lazy to look up a word in the dictionary if he had doubts about its spelling? -----Gerald Cohen >HOT DOG (continued, of course) > > This is from the PITTSBURGH POST-GAZETTE (the _second_ torching of my >work this summer--"Show Me" was never corrected), 12 August 1999, pg. G3: > > If it weren't for a newspaper cartoonist, vendors at Pirate games >might still be barking, "Get you red hot dachshund sausages!" > "Hot dogs" were still something of a novelty in 1906 America, and >they went by a variety of names: frankfurters, franks, wieners, red hots, >and dachshund sausages. But during a New York Giants game that year, >Hearst newspaper cartoonist Tad Dorgan was so inspired by a vendor >yelling, "Get you red hot dachshund sausages," that he decided to sketch a >dachshund smeared with mustard encased in a bun. It is believed Dorgan >couldn't spell the word dachshund so he settled on dog--the caption read >"Come get your hot dogs." > > A Dow Jones check shows that the History Channel not only got things >wrong with their documentary HISTORY ON A BUN and with their MILLENNIUM >MINUTE, but in _another_ documentary as well. This is from the LOS >ANGELES TIMES, 19 July 1999, pg. D2: > >What: "Modern Marvels: Baseball Parks" >Where: The History Channel, tonight, 7 and 11 > (...) Before each commercial break of the one-hour program, >interesting facts are shown about ball parks. For instance: In 1905, red >hot dachshunds on a roll were popular items at ball parks. The name was >eventually shortened to hot dogs after a newspaper columnist complained he >couldn't spell dachshund. gcohen at umr.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Aug 22 02:56:40 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 22:56:40 EDT Subject: "Missouri" spellings on MOA Message-ID: "Missouri" has 26,650 matches in 2,719 works in the Making of America database. "Missoury" has 11 matches in 8 works (one work is counted twice): Southern Literary Messenger, June 1863 Overland Monthly, September 1875 Overland Monthly, December 1884 Overland Monthly, June 1885 Overland Monthly, June 1887 Overland Monthly, April 1889 Overland Monthly, December 1896 "Missoura" has only one match--Overland Monthly, February 1869. "Mizzoorah" has two matches. One is Eugene Field, SECOND BOOK OF VERSE (1908). The other (which is also the only match for "Mizzouri") is APPLETONS' JOURNAL, October 1881, pg. 320, col. 2, "English and American English" by Richard A. Proctor: "...Mizzouri (in the South and West, Missouri is called Mizzoorah)..." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 23 00:34:18 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 20:34:18 EDT Subject: Sports Illustrated, 1964-66 Message-ID: SPEED BUMP cartoon (www.creators.com), 20 August 1999, said by a man selling Jumbo Arts & Crafts Supplies: "Well, it does contain the full nine yards and the whole ball of wax, but this kit does not come with a kaboodle." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- I've been going through SPORTS ILLUSTRATED 1964-1966 looking for the "whole nine yards." I didn't find it in the few issues I saw, but there's lots of other good stuff. A TIE IS LIKE KISSING YOUR SISTER--5 December 1966, pg. 115, col. 1. This continues the previous posting on this term. The phrase therefore did not originate in Texas in 1976. This was a famous tie game between Michigan State and Notre Dame. MSU coach Duffy Daugherty allegedly used the line after this game, although I didn't find it in the original story on Nov. 28. Perhaps someone at MSU can check. This headlines the letters column. _SISTERLY KISS_ DUNK--5 December 1966, pg. 40, col. 1. The BDE has the basketball "dunk" from 1955. The line of giants began with Bob (Foothills) Kurland of Oklahoma State (then Oklahoma A&M). Kurland, who was just a shade under 7 feet, led his team to national championships in 1945 and 1946, brought into the game and the vernacular the revolutionary "dunk shot," and was personally responsible for the writing of a goaltending law... MANO A MANO--5 December 1966, pg. 71, col. 1. The RHHDAS has "mano" only, from 1967. ...phooey on collapsing zones and sagging _mano a mano_... TOUCHDOWN JESUS--21 November 1966, pg. 98, col. 1. A letter to the magazine. Congratulations to Dan Jenkins on recapturing some of that elusive and long dormant Notre Dame spirit. But why did Dan fail to give the figure of Christ in the huge mosaic on the library the name by which He is best known to all students and alumni--"Touchdown Jesus"? Was he afraid of offending ND alumni? (7 November 1966, pg. 72, col. 2: Someone in South Bend, Ind., will show you the statue of Father Corby outside a priests' residence near Sorin Hall, the aging bronze mold of a man holding up his right arm ("There's old fair-catch Corby"). Someone will point to a more modern chunk of metal, Moses, near the library, an arm uplifted, forefinger gesturing to the heavens ("We're No. 1"). Someone will show you another figure, this one in the huge mosaic on the library--Christ raising both arms ("Six points").) NOW YOU SEE IT, NOW YOU DON'T--28 November 1966, pg. 61, col. 2. The phrase is from magic, but is not in the RHHDAS. ...the fine now-you-see-me-now-you-don't running backs... HOW'S THE WEATHER UP THERE?--5 December 1966, pg. 41, col. 1. Cliches said to a very tall person, in this case UCLA's Lew Alcindor. "You've heard them all: 'Watch your head.' 'How's the weather up there?' 'You must have trouble sleeping.' All that. The one I hear most now"--here Alcindor looks up--"is 'Boy, and I thought I was tall.'" DOG MEAT--14 November 1966, pg. 102, col. 1. The title of this bridge-playing story is "The Dogmeat Was Hard to Swallow." We were both what the experts describe as "dogmeat," "bait" or "fish." A once-a-month game with the neighbors was our milieu, and the neighbors aren't named Goren. PSYCHS--14 November 1966, pg. 106, col. 2. From the same story as the above. "Do you bid psychs?" (A psychic bid, or psych, is any utterly meaningless bid, completely unjustified by the cards you hold, and if you make such crazy bids, which we didn't, you must announce your habit to the opponents in advance, which we hadn't.) JELL--14 November 1966, pg. 84 (copy is unclear), col. 2. Sports teams often "jell"--unfortunately, not into strawberry. "The team has jelled," said Fran Tarkenton... HEALTHY BODY, HEALTHY MIND--19 December 1966, pg. 106, col. 1. This seems like a classic quotation going back to the Greek athletes, but my quote books don't have it. The well-known formula, "in a healthy body a healthy mind," is a highly dubious one if applied universally. In the normal view, a healthy mind is, above all, a kind one. But Hitler, for example, spared no expense on the physical education of young people, with aims quite other than the development of kindness in them. MISTER CLEAN--19 December 1966, pg. M3, col. 2. The RHHDAS has "Mister Clean" from 1971. Fans keep a close check on the state of his (Pittsburgh Steeler Charlie Bradshaw--ed.) uniform and from time to time admonish, "Ya oughta be ashamed to pick up ya pay, Mr. Clean." YOU'D SWEAR THEY CAME OUT OF THE STANDS TO TACKLE YOU--12 December 1966, pg. 18, col. 2. This football cliche is not recorded. Buoniconti and the Pats used to put on a blitz that resembled a stampede. "They hit you with so many guys," (Jack--ed.) Kemp once said, "that you'd swear half a dozen of them came out of the stands." MY COACHING HAS IMPROVED--21 September 1964, pg. 67, col. 1. A cliche said by a coach after a superstar joins the team. "My coaching," he (Illinois coach Pete Elliott--ed.) says, "improved 100% last season." What really improved Pete's coaching was the presence of such edifying specimens as Dick Butkus... ...CONSIDERING--4 September 1964, pg. 35, col. 2. I haven't seen this recorded. Harley said, "You didn't do too bad...considering." He was very serious, really trying, consciously, to keep me from remembering and being humiliated. PLAY THE PERCENTAGES--7 September 1964, pg. 83, col. 1. Probably taken from baseball and horse-racing. "I play percentages," he says, "and let Jerry (Kramer, the Green Bay center--ed.) do the reading. For instance, on pass rushes, players have a tendency to go either inside or out most of the time. I know from experience which to expect and concentrate on." NINTH INNING...FIVE YARD LINE--21 November 1966, pg. 64, cols. 2-3. Yogi Berra doesn't say all of these. Shortly before the election _Charles Percy_, the Republican candidate for the Senate from Illinois, told a sports rally: "We're down to the ninth inning with the ball on the five-yard line." He won anyway. SO WHAT ELSE IS NEW--3 August 1964, pg. 59. The ads for Dial Soap used hip phrases. Another ad on 6 July 1964, pg. 1, was "Play it cool." So what else is new FIFTEEN MINUTES--20 July 1964, pg. 62, col. 1. Andy Warhol's "famous" quote four years later was that, in the future, everyone would be famous for 15 minutes. However, this earlier ad by the President's Council on Physical Fitness showed a clock with a kid's hands for hands. Just 15 minutes of vigorous activity--during a daily physical education period--can improve the physical fitness of our nation's youth. JUDY! JUDY! JUDY!--14 September 1964, pg. 28, cols. 1-2. I thought that this excerpt from George Plimpton's PAPER LION might have pre-dated the Cary Grant line (that he never actually said in a film), but see the web site at www.ifb.co.uk/~pingu/cg/judy.htm. ..."blue! blue! blue!" which indicated a variety of zone coverage or "red! red! red!" which designated man-on-man coverage. The defensive code words varied. When Jim Ninowski, a former Lions quarterback, was traded from Detroit to Cleveland, the defensive signals, which Ninowski knew, of course, had to be changed when the two teams met--from colors to girls' names, it was decided. One of them was Ninowski's young wife's name--Judy, I think it was. He would call a play in the huddle and come up behind his center to hear the linebackers across the line all hollering "Judy! Judy! Judy!" The Lions hoped that this would jar him somewhat. LOST, BUT MAKING GREAT TIME--New York Times Magazine, 8 January 1956, pg. 26, col. 2. "Have You Heard This One?" is a roundup of jokes of the day. This continues a previous posting on this term--which was not coined by Yogi Berra in the 1970s. A man who was wildly enthusiastic about his driving ability was taking a trip with his wife. After traveling a great distance, she consulted a map and told him they were lost. "What's the difference?" he said. "We're making great time." From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Aug 23 01:51:39 1999 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 19:51:39 -0600 Subject: Misunderstandings of lyrics Message-ID: For some years I have been collecting examples of children misunderstanding such items as "round yon virgin" ("Round John Virgin") and "Pontius Pilate" ("Pontius Pilot," resulting in a third grader drawing a Christimas picture featuring an airplane with a mother, father and baby, plus one additional man in the front; the additional man was "Pontius Pilot"). Recently I received an e-mail message reportedly taken off the Internet. It presents a list of such misunderstandings plus some, evidently, made by adults; I do not vouch for the authenticity of every one: > > Mondegreens Ripped My Flesh > >Here at the Center for the Humane Study of Mondegreens, we've been >toting up the entries and applying the latest statistical correlative >methods, >even using our toes, to arrive at a semi-definitive answer. > >We believe that the most frequently submitted Mondegreen is still "Gladly, >the cross-eyed bear" (known in the real world as that fine old hymn "Gladly >The Cross I'd Bear"). A close second is "There's a bathroom on the right," a >mishearing of "There's a bad moon on the rise" from the old Creedence >Clearwater song "Bad Moon Rising." > >Third place is still firmly held by "Excuse me while I kiss this guy," >actually >"Excuse me while I kiss the sky" from the Jimi Hendrix song "Purple Haze." >Mr. Hendrix was himself aware that he had been Mondegreened, and would >occasionally, in performance, actually kiss a guy after saying that line. > >Fourth place is probably occupied by Round John Virgin, a Shakespearean >figure occasionally found in "Silent Night." Also high on the charts is a >Mondegreen from "Groovin'", a popular song of an earlier era. (Kids, >"groovin'" was kind of like "chillin'" except the clothing fit more >tightly). > >In that song, the Rascals were singing "You and me endlessly," but many >people heard "You and me and Leslie," leading to speculation about the >exact identity of Leslie and the popularity of multiple couplings in the >music >world. > >For those of you who have not yet received the pamphlet (mailed free to >anyone who buys me an automobile), the word Mondegreen, meaning a >mishearing of a popular phrase or song lyric, was coined by the writer >Sylvia > Wright. > >As a child she had heard the Scottish ballad "The Bonny Earl of Murray" >and had believed that one stanza went like this: > > Ye Highlands and Ye Lowlands > Oh where hae you been? > They hae slay the Earl of Murray, > And Lady Mondegreen. > >Poor Lady Mondegreen, thought Sylvia Wright. A tragic heroine dying with > her liege; how poetic. When it turned out, some years later, that what >they >had actually done was slay the Earl of Murray and lay him on the green, >Wright was so distraught by the sudden disappearance of her heroine that >she memorialized her with a neologism. > >This space has been for some years the chief publicity agent for >Mondegreens. The Oxford English Dictionary has not yet seen the light, but >it will, it will. > >The pledge of allegiance is such a hotbed of Mondegreens that one could >create a composite of submitted entries: "I pledge a lesion to the flag, of >the >United State of America, and to the republic for Richard Stans, one naked >individual, with liver tea and just this for all." > >This formulation is elderly enough to have predated "under God," which is >just as well; it would be a shame to lose "one naked individual." > >There are Mondegreens in familiar phrases. A friend of Adair Lara's >believed for years that we live in a "doggy dog world" populated by pushy >people with a "no holes barred" attitude, while a friend of Carolyn Stone's > >believed that World War II was fought between the Zees and the Not Zees. > > >B. Young was charmed to hear that both Coke and Pepsi came in >"cheerleader size." Later, he was disappointed to learn that it was actually >"two litre size." Florence Jarreth was interested in the new "Jeep >Parakeet," >but less interested in the new "Jeep Cherokee." > >James Lauder recounted the story of the pet shop clerk who told him, in all >seriousness, that her parents' wealth did them no good at all because they >just sat around their backyard deck in Marin and "drank themselves to >Bolivia." >Geoffrey Gould's mother was convinced that if, say, you were moving a vase >to a high shelf because small children were about to come over, you were >moving said vase "out of arm's sway." Stephanie von Buchau always >believed, correctly, I should think, that "a soft dancer turneth away >wrath." > >But the overwhelming majority of Mondegreens come from song lyrics. >Remember on the East Side and the West Side when me and Mamie >O'Rourke "risked our lives in traffic"? Remember when Simon and >Garfunkel sang hauntingly about how "partially saved was Mary and Tom"? >Remember that touching moment in "I'm in the Mood for Love" when the >singer reveals his favorite nickname for his beloved? > > I'm in the mood for love, > Simply because you're near me, > Funny Butt, when you're near me ... > >There was the Bob Dylan song with the memorable refrain: "Dead ants are >my friends, they're blowin' in the wind." There was the great Crystal Gayle >song "Doughnuts Make Your Brown Eyes Blue." There was the equally > wonderful Maria Muldaur song "Midnight After You're Wasted." > >Val Kruger heard Jose Feliciano's famous recording of "Feliz Navidad" as >"Police naughty dog," and now so will you. Barry McCarthy mentioned >another popular Spanish song, "One Ton Tomato." Melissa McChesney >always heard "My baby likes the Western movies" as "My baby's like a wet >sock moving." > >Two great Paul McCartney Mondegreens: The lines of French in "Michelle" >were heard by Kathy Stawhorn's daughter as "Michelle, ma bell, Sunday >monkey won't play piano song, play piano song." Several people have heard >the line in "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds" that goes "the girl with >kaleidoscope eyes" as "the girl with colitis goes by." > > There are many more; many more -- I have envelopes stuffed >with them. But our eyes grow weary and our stomachs grow hungry; we must >now, in the words of the old Christmas carol, "sleep in heavenly peas." gcohen at umr.edu From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Mon Aug 23 02:28:58 1999 From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 22:28:58 -0400 Subject: Misunderstandings of lyrics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can't vouch for the authenticity of the examples, but the author is veteran San Francisco columnist Jon Carroll, who has been collecting mondegreens for years. He has done several articles on the subject (a time-honored columnists' technique technically known as "milking"). See http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/carroll/ for more. At 09:51 PM 8/22/99 , Gerald Cohen wrote: > For some years I have been collecting examples of children >misunderstanding such items as "round yon virgin" ("Round John Virgin") >and "Pontius Pilate" ("Pontius Pilot," resulting in a third grader drawing >a Christimas picture featuring an airplane with a mother, father and baby, >plus one additional man in the front; the additional man was "Pontius >Pilot"). > > Recently I received an e-mail message reportedly taken off the >Internet. It presents a list of such misunderstandings plus some, >evidently, made by adults; I do not vouch for the authenticity of every >one: > > > > Mondegreens Ripped My Flesh > > > >Here at the Center for the Humane Study of Mondegreens, we've been > >toting up the entries and applying the latest statistical correlative > >methods, > >even using our toes, to arrive at a semi-definitive answer. > > > >We believe that the most frequently submitted Mondegreen is still "Gladly, > >the cross-eyed bear" (known in the real world as that fine old hymn "Gladly > >The Cross I'd Bear"). A close second is "There's a bathroom on the right," a > >mishearing of "There's a bad moon on the rise" from the old Creedence > >Clearwater song "Bad Moon Rising." > > > >Third place is still firmly held by "Excuse me while I kiss this guy," > >actually > >"Excuse me while I kiss the sky" from the Jimi Hendrix song "Purple Haze." > >Mr. Hendrix was himself aware that he had been Mondegreened, and would > >occasionally, in performance, actually kiss a guy after saying that line. > > > >Fourth place is probably occupied by Round John Virgin, a Shakespearean > >figure occasionally found in "Silent Night." Also high on the charts is a > >Mondegreen from "Groovin'", a popular song of an earlier era. (Kids, > >"groovin'" was kind of like "chillin'" except the clothing fit more > >tightly). > > > >In that song, the Rascals were singing "You and me endlessly," but many > >people heard "You and me and Leslie," leading to speculation about the > >exact identity of Leslie and the popularity of multiple couplings in the > >music > >world. > > > >For those of you who have not yet received the pamphlet (mailed free to > >anyone who buys me an automobile), the word Mondegreen, meaning a > >mishearing of a popular phrase or song lyric, was coined by the writer > >Sylvia > > Wright. > > > >As a child she had heard the Scottish ballad "The Bonny Earl of Murray" > >and had believed that one stanza went like this: > > > > Ye Highlands and Ye Lowlands > > Oh where hae you been? > > They hae slay the Earl of Murray, > > And Lady Mondegreen. > > > >Poor Lady Mondegreen, thought Sylvia Wright. A tragic heroine dying with > > her liege; how poetic. When it turned out, some years later, that what > >they > >had actually done was slay the Earl of Murray and lay him on the green, > >Wright was so distraught by the sudden disappearance of her heroine that > >she memorialized her with a neologism. > > > >This space has been for some years the chief publicity agent for > >Mondegreens. The Oxford English Dictionary has not yet seen the light, but > >it will, it will. > > > >The pledge of allegiance is such a hotbed of Mondegreens that one could > >create a composite of submitted entries: "I pledge a lesion to the flag, of > >the > >United State of America, and to the republic for Richard Stans, one naked > >individual, with liver tea and just this for all." > > > >This formulation is elderly enough to have predated "under God," which is > >just as well; it would be a shame to lose "one naked individual." > > > >There are Mondegreens in familiar phrases. A friend of Adair Lara's > >believed for years that we live in a "doggy dog world" populated by pushy > >people with a "no holes barred" attitude, while a friend of Carolyn Stone's > > > >believed that World War II was fought between the Zees and the Not Zees. > > > > > >B. Young was charmed to hear that both Coke and Pepsi came in > >"cheerleader size." Later, he was disappointed to learn that it was actually > >"two litre size." Florence Jarreth was interested in the new "Jeep > >Parakeet," > >but less interested in the new "Jeep Cherokee." > > > >James Lauder recounted the story of the pet shop clerk who told him, in all > >seriousness, that her parents' wealth did them no good at all because they > >just sat around their backyard deck in Marin and "drank themselves to > >Bolivia." > >Geoffrey Gould's mother was convinced that if, say, you were moving a vase > >to a high shelf because small children were about to come over, you were > >moving said vase "out of arm's sway." Stephanie von Buchau always > >believed, correctly, I should think, that "a soft dancer turneth away > >wrath." > > > >But the overwhelming majority of Mondegreens come from song lyrics. > >Remember on the East Side and the West Side when me and Mamie > >O'Rourke "risked our lives in traffic"? Remember when Simon and > >Garfunkel sang hauntingly about how "partially saved was Mary and Tom"? > >Remember that touching moment in "I'm in the Mood for Love" when the > >singer reveals his favorite nickname for his beloved? > > > > I'm in the mood for love, > > Simply because you're near me, > > Funny Butt, when you're near me ... > > > >There was the Bob Dylan song with the memorable refrain: "Dead ants are > >my friends, they're blowin' in the wind." There was the great Crystal Gayle > >song "Doughnuts Make Your Brown Eyes Blue." There was the equally > > wonderful Maria Muldaur song "Midnight After You're Wasted." > > > >Val Kruger heard Jose Feliciano's famous recording of "Feliz Navidad" as > >"Police naughty dog," and now so will you. Barry McCarthy mentioned > >another popular Spanish song, "One Ton Tomato." Melissa McChesney > >always heard "My baby likes the Western movies" as "My baby's like a wet > >sock moving." > > > >Two great Paul McCartney Mondegreens: The lines of French in "Michelle" > >were heard by Kathy Stawhorn's daughter as "Michelle, ma bell, Sunday > >monkey won't play piano song, play piano song." Several people have heard > >the line in "Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds" that goes "the girl with > >kaleidoscope eyes" as "the girl with colitis goes by." > > > > There are many more; many more -- I have envelopes stuffed > >with them. But our eyes grow weary and our stomachs grow hungry; we must > >now, in the words of the old Christmas carol, "sleep in heavenly peas." > > > > > >gcohen at umr.edu From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 23 04:37:59 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 00:37:59 EDT Subject: Updating Partridge's CATCH PHRASES Message-ID: In my brief spare time (when I'm on this continent and not at my job), I've been trying to update Eric Partridge's A DICTIONARY OF CATCH PHRASES (1977) and Mitford M. Mathews's DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS (1951). I've been running words & phrases through the Making of America and Periodicals Contents Index databases first, and then the other computer databases. Partridge had been working with words for half a century. He had many scholarly books to consult and many scholars helped him. There should be little chance for "whoppers." Within the book's first few pages is this: _alone I did it_ is both British and US. My only early record of this latish C19-20 c.p. occurs in Act I of Alfred Sutro's _The Fascinating Mr. Vanderbilt_, performed and published in 1906... The English Drama database and came up with a slightly earlier hit: William Shakespeare, CORIOLANUS (1623)--"Alone I did it, Boy." Keep in mind, this is just the first seven pages! On page nine, Partridge lists "and I don't mean maybe" and cites DANCE MAGIC (1927). I knew he was weak on Americanisms, but didn't the whole darned world know "Yessir, that's my baby; no sir, I don't mean maybe"?? This will probably be a continuing series of postings, but here are some results (mostly from the Periodicals Contents Index): SOME OF MY BEST FRIENDS ARE (JEWS/BLACK/et al.)--Partridge gives no early citations but states "dates not later than 1940 and has probably been current since the early 1930s." There are: "Some of My Best Friends Are Yale Men" (VANITY FAIR, May 1921, pg. 61), "Some of My Best Friends Are Soldiers" (JOURNAL OF NEGRO EDUCATION, 1946, pg. 216), ""Some of My Best Friends Are Catalogers" (WILSON LIBRARY BULLETIN, Nov. 1948, pg. 243), and "Some of My Best Friends Are Professors" (JOURNAL OF HIGHER EDUCATION, 1959, pg. 114). AGE BEFORE BEAUTY--Partridge has "late C19-20, but rarely heard after (say) 1960." It's in the RANDOM HOUSE DICTIONARY OF POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS--also without an early first citation. "Age Before Beauty" is in SCRIBNER'S MONTHLY, vol. 5 (1872-1873), pg. 767. IF YOU'RE SO SMART, WHY AIN'T YOU RICH?--Not in Partridge, but it came up while searching "ain't." I couldn't find it in other books, either. The PCI has it from May 1971, AMERICAN ECONOMIC REVIEW, pg. 289. ALL DRESSED UP LIKE A FIRE ENGINE--Also not in Partridge, but he has "all dressed up and no place to go" and "all dressed up like Mrs. Astor's horse." The "fire engine" was in ART IN AMERICA, Winter 1956/57, pg. 54. Perhaps this phrase helped give birth to the phrase "bells and whistles." ALL SYSTEMS GO--From the 1960s NASA Space Program, but no one has citations. The PCI has "All Systems 'Go'" in LISTENER, Nov. 7, 1963, pg. 728. ALL SMOKE AND MIRRORS--Not in Partridge, who has the ancient "all smoke, gammon and spinach." From a magic act. PCI has QUADRANT, Dec. 1988, pg. 29, but Nexis should beat this. REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR--Certainly not earlier than December 7, 1941. PCI has it in UNITED STATES NEWS, Jan. 2, 1942, pg. 28. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MISC. MISHEARD SONG LYRICS--There was a series of books on this by Gavin Edwards: 'SCUSE ME...WHILE I KISS THIS GUY (1995) HE'S GOT THE WHOLE WORLD IN HIS PANTS (1996) WHEN A MAN LOVES A WALNUT (1997) DECK THE HALLS WITH BUDDY HOLLY (Christmas lyrics) (1998) DAGWOOD SANDWICH--"A Dagwood Sandwich. The Films in Review" is in THEATRE ARTS, Nov. 1946, pg. 669. Perhaps it's on film? MISSOURI SPELLINGS--I might have forgotten "Mizzoora" in OVERLAND MONTHLY, July 1888, pg. 45, and "Mizzoorah" in OVERLAND MONTHLY, January 1895, pg. 37. BRONX COCKTAIL--David Shulman has a citation from 1901; two citations offer varying theories about how it originated at the Waldorf Hotel in Manhattan. The interview I remember reading featuring Bronx historian Lloyd Ultan was in the DAILY NEWS, October 1998 (available on Dow Jones)--he also credits the Waldorf Hotel. I'll know more when I look at the Waldorf menus and biographies. From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM Mon Aug 23 05:00:28 1999 From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 01:00:28 -0400 Subject: "hot dog"--another correction Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Cohen To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Date: Saturday, August 21, 1999 10:08 PM Subject: "hot dog"--another correction > "It is believed Dorgan couldn't spell the word dachshund so he settled >on dog--the caption read 'Come get your hot dogs'." > > For the record, T.A. Dorgan was not only a sports cartoonist but a >sportswriter, and a very good one. Most likely, he was in fact able to >spell "dachshund," but in any case, his newspaper office surely had a >dictionary handy. Are we really supposed to believe that this very literate >man was too lazy to look up a word in the dictionary if he had doubts about >its spelling? > >-----Gerald Cohen > >>HOT DOG (continued, of course) >> >> If it weren't for a newspaper cartoonist, vendors at Pirate games >>might still be barking, "Get you red hot dachshund sausages!" Y'know, this is the bit that completely sours the theory for me. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that hot dogs were ever called 'dachshund sausages', especially in popular usage, and certainly not *before* they were called hot dogs (Barry, did you follow the dachshund's trail in your earlier posts?). I'll grant you isolated instants of some witty wordwise wags cracking wise, but not popular usage. Bruce From dumasb at UTK.EDU Mon Aug 23 11:41:10 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 07:41:10 -0400 Subject: "viagra moment" Message-ID: I heard it in Meigs County, Ohio; the speaker was a Detroit native (AA male, 40-ish). He was unsuccessfully trying to hoist a microphone into place before performing on his guitar. As the microphone kept drooping, he said, "I think I'm having a viagra moment." That's the first time I recall hearing the phrase. Bethany From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Aug 23 14:54:37 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:54:37 EDT Subject: Misunderstandings of lyrics Message-ID: Yes, and Elton John sings, "Someone shaved my wife tonight." From RonButters at AOL.COM Mon Aug 23 15:03:27 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:03:27 EDT Subject: Updating Partridge's CATCH PHRASES Message-ID: In a message dated 8/23/99 12:41:04 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << IF YOU'RE SO SMART, WHY AIN'T YOU RICH?--Not in Partridge, but it came up while searching "ain't." I couldn't find it in other books, either. The PCI has it from May 1971, AMERICAN ECONOMIC REVIEW, pg. 289. >> Eudora Welty uses this in her short story, "Why I Live at the P.O." (c.1940). A character--a child--says it. From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET Mon Aug 23 18:37:51 1999 From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:37:51 -0700 Subject: SQUATTING Message-ID: Squatting is comparable to a legal concept called "adverse possession". The elements are "open, notorious, and adverse" possession of property for a period of years, 15 is probably about the number in most state laws. After that period the adverse possessor gains ownership. A comparable concept exists for adverse usage which results in gaining the permanbent right to continued use. Footpaths and driveways are often the subject of adverse usage. Bob G S C wrote: > Depending on the laws of a given state, squatting could be something as > 'simple' as walking/driving across someone's property, on a regular > basis, and establishing the legal right, after several years, to > continue to cross that property. In the 1950s, I heard references to > squatter's rights, when used with private property. Later, I was told > that the legal nicety dealt with 'notorious use'. Again, the basic > differences are in the laws of the various states. > > George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu > Shippensburg University From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Mon Aug 23 18:40:49 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:40:49 -0700 Subject: Misunderstandings of lyrics Message-ID: Also, take a look at: http://www.kissthisguy.com/ I learned that what is being sung in the background of Peter Gabriel's "Games without Frontiers" is "joues sans frontiers" and not "she's so popular" or " she's so funky now" or whatever. I asked my husband if he knew this and he said there used to be a game show either called "Games Without Frontiers" or which used the phrase "joues sans frontiers", so lots of English people were familiar with the French phrase. Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU Mon Aug 23 18:52:17 1999 From: debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:52:17 -0500 Subject: query: the Queen's English Message-ID: A few weeks ago Queen Elizabeth II was criticized for a usage error made during a speech. Can someone remember what that was all about or direct me to some of the news stories about it? Thanks. Dennis __________________ Dennis Baron, Head debaron at uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2390 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 S. Wright St. http:www/english.uiuc.edu/baron Urbana, IL 61801 From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Mon Aug 23 19:18:24 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:18:24 -0700 Subject: "What's it to you?" Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > WHAT'S IT TO YOU? > > The Making of America database works in some strange ways. It will NOT > recognize "What's it to you?" It WILL recognize "What s it to you?" > Couldn't they work out this kink?? I'll hazard a guess. Depending on how the text gets into the system, the mark for the apostrophe is not always the same character (codepoint). In some cirumstances, this manifests itself as as question mark. For example, people create Web pages using Microsoft products, which use proprietary characters. "What's" will look like "What?s" on a non-Microsoft machine. It might be that the database search engine has trouble with the various characters for apostrophe. Or, the apostrophe could be a special character that the program processing your input has not accounted for. Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From mcalvert at ENTERPE.COM Mon Aug 23 19:18:16 1999 From: mcalvert at ENTERPE.COM (Mike Calvert) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:18:16 +0000 Subject: Misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: One of my all-time favorites, as misunderstood by my sister in the late '60s: Creedence Clearwater Revival's "There's a bathroom on the right." Michael Calvert Press Enterprise Bloomsburg, PA From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Mon Aug 23 23:39:57 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:39:57 -0500 Subject: Misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: >From the 50's, until I got the sheet music, I wondered why Elvis's hound dog was "crocking" all the time. And do not forget Andy (walks with me) and Gladly the cross-eyed bear. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Calvert To: Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 2:18 PM Subject: Re: Misunderstood lyrics > One of my all-time favorites, as misunderstood by my sister in the late > '60s: Creedence Clearwater Revival's "There's a bathroom on the right." > > Michael Calvert > Press Enterprise > Bloomsburg, PA From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Mon Aug 23 23:57:27 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:57:27 -0500 Subject: SQUATTING Message-ID: In Florida, I knew several landowners who closed access to the beach through their property every New Year's Day to prevent such claims. One guy did it on December 1; I asked "Why?" He responded that he was not going to be there one New Years so he did it early and his lawyer told him that he had to keep on doing it early unless he wanted to make people mad twice in one short season or grant an easement. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Fitzke To: Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 1:37 PM Subject: Re: SQUATTING > Squatting is comparable to a legal concept called "adverse possession". The > elements are "open, notorious, and adverse" possession of property for a > period of years, 15 is probably about the number in most state laws. After > that period the adverse possessor gains ownership. A comparable concept > exists for adverse usage which results in gaining the permanbent right to > continued use. Footpaths and driveways are often the subject of adverse > usage. > > Bob > > G S C wrote: > > > Depending on the laws of a given state, squatting could be something as > > 'simple' as walking/driving across someone's property, on a regular > > basis, and establishing the legal right, after several years, to > > continue to cross that property. In the 1950s, I heard references to > > squatter's rights, when used with private property. Later, I was told > > that the legal nicety dealt with 'notorious use'. Again, the basic > > differences are in the laws of the various states. > > > > George S. Cole gscole at ark.ship.edu > > Shippensburg University From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 24 01:07:52 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:07:52 EDT Subject: Gay & Queer; Accessible Archives Message-ID: GAY & QUEER (continued) "Gay" perhaps began at Life cafeteria in Greenwich Village. (I had previously posted that the full term "the gay life" was often used in publications such as ONE.) I found this today in AROUND NEW YORK IN RHYME (1938) by Gerry Wayne, pg. 15: _Where there's Greenwich Village there's life_ _Where there's life there's queers_ There's a cafeteria in the Village Known by name as Life Visited by all sorts of people >From every walk of life. Its name before was Stewart's By which it was reclaimed And if you listen carefully You'll hear why t'was renamed. In this cafeteria poured People known as queer By this I do not mean peculiar But interchanged I fear. In other words the women And the men were quite ironic They had no use for the opposite sex Except a love platonic. The women loved each other The men they did the same And this shocking situation Like wildfire spread in fame. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ACCESSIBLE ARCHIVES When I tried Accessible Archives today, Godey's Ladies Book and the Pennsylvania Gazette were listed "N/A." Only the Civil War newspapers could be accessed. Is this just the New York Public Library, or is something wrong? The result is a "taradiddle" crisis of epic proportions! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 24 01:09:52 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:09:52 EDT Subject: Fwd: Accessible Archives Breakup Message-ID: I didn't realize I had an answer on this when I did the last posting. --Barry Popik -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: rpyle at nypl.org (rpyle) Subject: Accessible Archives Breakup Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:23:34 -0400 Size: 3031 URL: From rkm at SLIP.NET Tue Aug 24 01:13:31 1999 From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:13:31 -0700 Subject: Misunderstood lyrics In-Reply-To: <002301beedc0$d02f0a00$8c7a1bcc@pafracat> Message-ID: Ok, I've never had a chance to ask anybody about this, and I hope somebody out there remember it, because not only can't I remember the title of the '70s (?) song (it was a name, like Amanda or Aubry I think), but I can't remember the group who sang it. However, the chorus had a refrain that I always heard as either: Blinded by the light Revved up like a Deuxchevaux (Something, something) night or Blinded by the light Wrapped up like a goose Another runner in the night Much appreciated, Rima From davemarc at PANIX.COM Tue Aug 24 02:08:22 1999 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:08:22 -0400 Subject: Misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: > From: Kim & Rima McKinzey > > Ok, I've never had a chance to ask anybody about this, and I hope somebody > out there remember it, because not only can't I remember the title of the > '70s (?) song (it was a name, like Amanda or Aubry I think), but I can't > remember the group who sang it. > > However, the chorus had a refrain that I always heard as either: > > Blinded by the light > Revved up like a Deuxchevaux > (Something, something) night > > or > > Blinded by the light > Wrapped up like a goose > Another runner in the night You're probably thinking of Manfred Mann's Earth Band's cover of Bruce Springsteen's "Blinded by the Light," which includes the haunting but easily misheard lines: Blinded by the light revved up like a deuce Another runner in the night For more lyrics and other info, see http://www.kissthisguy.com/real.html d. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 24 02:01:13 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:01:13 EDT Subject: Misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: Bruce Springsteen, "Blinded By the Light." Re-recorded by Manfred Mann. I had always thought it was "Cut loose like a douche." --Barry Popik "Is this a library?"--Mattress delivery guy, 8-23-99. From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM Tue Aug 24 03:19:34 1999 From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:19:34 PDT Subject: Misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: >You're probably thinking of Manfred Mann's Earth Band's cover of >Bruce Springsteen's "Blinded by the Light," which includes the haunting but >easily misheard lines: > > Blinded by the light > revved up like a deuce > Another runner in the night > The page of lyrics (http://www.kissthisguy.com/real.html) gives two Manfred Mann versions of the line: "revved up" and "wrapped up". Are there two Manfred Mann recordings with different lyrics, or just two opinions on what Manfred sang? BTW, Springsteen wrote and sang "cut loose like a deuce", which I don't think, given the context, means much of anything. Any guesses on why Mann changed the lyric, or on what "wrapped/revved up like a deuce" might signify? DEJ "Little deuce coupe, you don't know what I've got..." _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From rkm at SLIP.NET Tue Aug 24 04:24:10 1999 From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:24:10 -0700 Subject: Misunderstood lyrics In-Reply-To: <19990824020937.B3C3B18CBF@mail2.panix.com> Message-ID: >> Blinded by the light >> Revved up like a Deuxchevaux >> (Something, something) night >> >> or >> >> Blinded by the light >> Wrapped up like a goose >> Another runner in the night > >Blinded by the light > revved up like a deuce > Another runner in the night > Thank you all for answering - and it's reassuring to know I wasn't the only one being confused. However, none of the versions make a whole lot of sense to me. Is the deuce referring to the deuce coupe? I'm sort of sorry to say goodby to the wrapped up goose... Rima From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 24 06:23:58 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 02:23:58 EDT Subject: Bloody Mary, B&B at "21" Club Message-ID: This continues a series of postings on drink etymologies that includes "cocktail," "martini," "Tom Collins," "rickey," "Manhattan," "Bronx cocktail," "Long Island iced tea," and "sex on the beach." These various lexical items are from "21," EVERY DAY WAS NEW YEAR'S EVE: MEMOIRS OF A SALOON KEEPER (1999) by H. Peter Kriendler with H. Paul Jeffers. Pg. 8: Serving as cashier under this new management was a man with dreams of becoming a newspaperman but with no inkling that he would go on to give New York the nickname "Naked City," produce movies, and have a Broadway theater named for him--Mark Hellinger. Pg. 9: The booze was sold in dollar-an-ounce flasks that were kept in coat pockets until it was necessary to fill a teacup. Such drinking spots were soon known as "cup joints." (Not in RHHDAS--ed.) Pg. 112: Arguably the most famous drink credited as having been invented at the club is the Bloody Mary. Almost as famous is the combination of brandy and Benedictine known as "B&B." Others with "21" birth certificates are the Ramos Gin Fizz and the Southside. Pg. 209: Because "21" was always regarded as a men's club, popular illustrators added to that perception by contributing work such as these to the club's walls. Dean Cornwell's drawing of the woman in the chair was captioned, "But I don't want to see your etchings! I want to go to '21'." (Date? 1936?--ed.) Pg. 228: They form the backdrop for Michael Douglas and Charlie Sheen in their luncheon scene in the movie _Wall Street_ as they sit at table 3, Charlie Sheen confronted with uncooked steak tartare as Douglas's character, Gordon Gekko, eats nothing. "Lunch," Gekko cynically declares, "is for wimps." Pg. 245: The symbol of the third era of '21', which would continue for the remainder of the century and toward the third millennium, was the "power lunch." Assessing the phenomenon in an (Pg. 246--ed.) article entitled "The Power of '21'" that appeared in the October 5, 1981, issue of _New York_ magazine, reporter Richard West judged '21' "the most powerful and famous restaurant in the country, a place of refuge and glory for the rich, the influential, the celebrated." Pg. 247: "...sipping $3 ginger ales and more costly Bloody Marys mixed by silver-haired Henry Zbikiewicz, bartender since 1939 (his only job)." The back flap has: "A '21' bartender created the Bloody Mary cocktail." See the ADS-L archives for "speakeasy." From jasanders at CSUPOMONA.EDU Tue Aug 24 06:47:01 1999 From: jasanders at CSUPOMONA.EDU (Judi Sanders) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 23:47:01 -0700 Subject: Misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: > >> Blinded by the light > >> Wrapped up like a goose > >> Another runner in the night > Thank you all for answering - and it's reassuring to know I wasn't the only > one being confused. However, none of the versions make a whole lot of > sense to me. Is the deuce referring to the deuce coupe? Of course the way Manfred Mann sings the song it sounds like douche. I have a vague memory of some DJ saying that the term "deuce" in this context meant "pimp." That could be with the "wrapped up" but probably not the "revved up" lyrics. This sense isn't in RHDAS. Judi Sanders -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Judi Sanders Professor, Communication Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona The Web: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders The College Slang Page: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From millerk at NYTIMES.COM Tue Aug 24 13:24:22 1999 From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen Miller) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:24:22 -0400 Subject: query: the Queen's English In-Reply-To: <744DBC8BC3FBD01192C200A0C96BA7BD014ED512@ntx1.cso.uiuc.edu > Message-ID: Months ago the Queen gave a speech in which she said, ..."the young are sometimes wiser than us." The original critisism came from the London Bureau of The Washington Post in an article by T.R. Reid on May 21, 1999. William Safire followed up with his comments on May 30. Hope this is the one you were thinking of. And just FYI, I have a whole folder full of comments on this from both sides of the argument (and when I asked Robert Burchfield what his take on it was he said, "The Queen was right. She always is." After all it is HER languauge, isn't it? :) At 01:52 PM 8/23/99 -0500, you wrote: >A few weeks ago Queen Elizabeth II was criticized for a usage error made >during a speech. Can someone remember what that was all about or direct me >to some of the news stories about it? Thanks. > >Dennis > >__________________ >Dennis Baron, Head debaron at uiuc.edu >Department of English 217-333-2390 >University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 >608 S. Wright St. http:www/english.uiuc.edu/baron >Urbana, IL 61801 From davemarc at PANIX.COM Tue Aug 24 13:59:56 1999 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:59:56 -0400 Subject: "Blinded by the Light" (was Re: Misunderstood lyrics) Message-ID: Maybe only the Boss knows what it all means. Below, you can see how Cecil Adams tackled the question at http://www.straightdope.com/columns/960726.html d. *** Dear Cecil: The song "Blinded by the Light"--I have no idea who wrote it or sang it, but it's your job to know these things. I was wondering what the male vocalist says after the title phrase of the song. Is it "revved up like a deuce" or "ripped off like a douche" or some other phrase? --IMSMRTRTNU, via AOL Dear IM: URSMRTRNI? DLUR, TRKE. "Blinded by the Light" was written by a New Jersey musician named Bruce Springsteen. Maybe you've heard of him. It was on his Greetings From Asbury Park, N.J. album. Bruce's lyrics were no paragon of clarity. But at least you could understand the words: "And she was blinded by the light / Cut loose like a deuce another runner in the night / Blinded by the light / She got down but she never got tight," etc. Manfred Mann's Earth Band ("Quinn the Eskimo") did a cover version of the tune in 1976. It became a hit, no doubt because the band made the lyrics even more opaque than they already were. They changed the line in question to "wrapped up like a deuce." What's it mean? I'm barely on speaking terms with my own subconscious. Don't ask me to explain someone else's. From dumasb at UTK.EDU Tue Aug 24 16:48:52 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:48:52 -0400 Subject: Fieldwork Query Message-ID: Does anyone have any experience with tape-recording panhandler's narratives? I think that I have access to a potentially rich source of data in downtown Knoxville, and I am exploring options for fieldwork and small grants. Thanks, Bethany From pmeier at EAGLE.CC.UKANS.EDU Tue Aug 24 17:52:15 1999 From: pmeier at EAGLE.CC.UKANS.EDU (Paul Meier) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:52:15 -0500 Subject: IDEA Message-ID: I am not a linguist. My interest in dialects is as a dialect coach for theatre and film where there was a tremendous need for quickly accessible primary sources dialect speech. I have tried to remedy this by creating IDEA (International Dialects of English Archive) here at the University of Kansas. I invite your perusal of this fledgling project and your comments. How could this site be just as useful to linguists as to the performing arts? Is there a better standard text than the Rainbow Passage? Comments anyone? Offsets preferably. Click www.ukans.edu/~idea Paul Meier Professor of Theatre and Film -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: vcard.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 446 bytes Desc: Card for Paul Meier URL: From ansolds at MASSED.NET Tue Aug 24 22:12:21 1999 From: ansolds at MASSED.NET (Anson Olds) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:12:21 -0700 Subject: Misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: One of my all time favorites came from a four-year-old girl I overheard at a day care center: "Skip, skip, skip to ma Lou/ Skip to Malooma's garden." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ansolds at MASSED.NET Tue Aug 24 22:19:45 1999 From: ansolds at MASSED.NET (Anson Olds) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:19:45 -0700 Subject: misunderstood lyrics Message-ID: One of my all time favorites came from a four-year-old girl I overheard at a daycare center: "Skip,skip, skip to ma Lou/ Skip to malooma's garden." Emily -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Aug 24 19:45:53 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:45:53 EDT Subject: Gay & Queer Message-ID: This use of QUEER is exactly what one would expect for 1938, when QUEER was the usual colloquial term for 'homosexual' and GAY was generally unknown in that sense. I missed Barry's earlier posting concerning "the gay life," but I have found that most such uses of GAY before the earlier 1940s mean 'homosexual' only to latter-day viewers but did not mean 'homosexual' to the person using the term at the time (though in the late 1930s GAY probably did have a queer-subculture meaning as 'homosexual' for a coterie in New York and perhaps other big cities in the US). In a message dated 8/23/99 9:53:12 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << GAY & QUEER (continued) "Gay" perhaps began at Life cafeteria in Greenwich Village. (I had previously posted that the full term "the gay life" was often used in publications such as ONE.) I found this today in AROUND NEW YORK IN RHYME (1938) by Gerry Wayne, pg. 15: _Where there's Greenwich Village there's life_ _Where there's life there's queers_ There's a cafeteria in the Village Known by name as Life Visited by all sorts of people >From every walk of life. Its name before was Stewart's By which it was reclaimed And if you listen carefully You'll hear why t'was renamed. In this cafeteria poured People known as queer By this I do not mean peculiar But interchanged I fear. In other words the women And the men were quite ironic They had no use for the opposite sex Except a love platonic. The women loved each other The men they did the same And this shocking situation Like wildfire spread in fame. >> From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Aug 25 03:04:03 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:04:03 EDT Subject: Second prize: TWO WEEKS in Swaziland Message-ID: I'll be going to Switzerland for two weeks, but the classic joke doesn't apply. "You know what the casino prizes here are?" I recently said in Swaziland. "First prize is one free week in Swaziland. Second prize is TWO FREE WEEKS in Swaziland." SECOND PRIZE, TWO MONTHS IN LENINGRAD (1984) was a play by Trish Johnson. Did the joke originate in Russia? Was comedian Jackov Smirnov the first to tell it? A usenet check shows that the joke has made it around the world: 10-21-95 posting: Sounds like a competition. First prize one week in Fishguard, second prize two weeks. 4-13-96 posting: It's sort of like winning a second prize of two weeks in Armpit Ontario when first prize is one week in Armpit. 7-25-96 posting: First prize: one week in Central Florida. Second prize: two weeks in Central Florida. 2-18-97 posting: Don't forget the intense and often humorous rivalry between Edinburgh and Glasgow. Glasgow Celtic FC had a raffle. First prize was a week in Edinburgh, second prize was two weeks in Edinburgh. 3-23-97 posting: You win first prize, one free week in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. Kerry wins second prize, which is two free weeks in Moose Jaw... 6-25-97 posting: I saw an interesting contest a few years back. First prize was a week in Moscow. Second prize was two weeks in Moscow. 8-6-97 posting: What's the first place prize? A trip to Cuba for one week? What's the second place prize, two weeks in Cuba? 10-10-97 posting: YELTSIN: First prize, a week traveling around Russia with me! YASTRZHEMBSKI: Second prize, two weeks. 2-26-98 posting: That corny old joke used to be said of the city. First prize in a raffle--one week in Sheffield. Second prize--two weeks in Sheffield. 7-28-98 posting: First prize--one week in Bangalore. Second prize--two weeks in Bangalore! 10-27-98 posting: Reminds me of the old joke about the raffle--first prize was a week in Melbourne, second prize was two weeks in Melbourne! (...) The funny (?) thing is that I have twice heard this said of Christchurch. 10-30-98 posting: First prize will be an all expense paid week in beautiful downtown Liverpool. Second prize will be two weeks there. 3-16-99 posting: Remember the competition where the first prize was a week in Warrington and the second prize was two weeks in Warrington. 3-20-99 posting: First prize, one week in fashionable Norwalk, CT! Second prize, two weeks in Norwalk, CT! From jdespres at MAIL.M-W.COM Wed Aug 25 09:08:17 1999 From: jdespres at MAIL.M-W.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:08:17 +0000 Subject: Gay & Queer Message-ID: Donald Webster Cory offers the following account of the semantic genesis of GAY in his book The Homosexual in America (1951), pp. 107-08): How, when, and where this word originated, I am unable to say. I have been told by experts that it came from the French, and that in France as early as the sixteenth century the homosexual was called "gaie." Significantly enough, the feminine form was used to describe the male. The word made its way to England and America, and was used in print in some of the more pornographic literature soon after the First World War. Psychoanalyists have infomred me that their homosexual patients were callng themselves "gay" in the nineteen-twenties, and certainly by the nineteen-thirties it was the most common word in use among homosexuals themselves. It was not until after Pearl Harbor that it became a magic by-word in practically every corner of the United States where homosexual might gather, and in the decade following America's entry into the Second World War I find [the word to have been in use among not only] magazine writers and gossip columnists, but even radio announcers. I've checked the French dictionaries we have on hand (including Littre, Godefroi, and Tresor de la langue francaise) and (unsurprisingly) haven't found a trace of a "homosexual" sense of gai/e. Maybe one of us needs to root around in the gay/lesbian archives at the NYPL or in the papers of some early twentieth-century psychoanalysts for early evidence of the word? Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster From RonButters at AOL.COM Wed Aug 25 15:53:52 1999 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:53:52 EDT Subject: Gay & Queer Message-ID: Thanks for pointing me towards Cory; maybe I dismissed him too quickly when I started researching QUEER vs. GAY a few years ago. All I know right now is that "Donald Webster Cory" is a pseudonym (for just whom I can't remember), and THE HOMOSEXUAL IN AMERICA, A SUBJECTIVE APPROACH, though apparently written c.1951, was not published until a decade later in any of the texts that I have seen (though I haven't seen them all). The authoritativeness of the book, then, would seen to depend primarily on the reliability of Cory's personal observations, which are more than a little hard to judge, given that he is pseudonymous. Suppose (as seems likely) that he was born between 1920 and 1930; this would give him first-hand knowledge of the adult language around him beginning no earlier than, say, 1937 and perhaps as late as 1945 or so. My research tells me that this was exactly the period when the term GAY was gaining cult prominence in homosexual circles in big cities and beginning to move out into the rest of the USA. At any rate, Cory is no linguist, and his unnamed "experts" are not in print anywhere that I have found. I can't say anything about the French, but I don't put much stock in the putative influence of French slang on American homosexuals. Particularly inaccurate--at least I have been able to find NO evidence in the printed record anywhere that would support such a statement--is Cory's assertion that "certainly by the nineteen-thirties it was the most common word in use among homosexuals themselves." Again, it is unlikely that "Cory" was an adult in the 1930s, at least not in queer circles. The evidence is overwhelming that, in the 1930s, QUEER was the most common word of self-reference (followed by FAIRY). It wasn't really replaced by GAY until the 1960s. The statement that "in the decade following America's entry into the Second World War I find [the word to have been in use among not only] magazine writers and gossip columnists, but even radio announcers" also strikes me as a little misleading in its emphasis. Yes, GAY 'homosexual' was used increasingly throughout the 1950s, particularly in big cities, and became more and more known to the general public during that decade. But it wasn't until the 1960s that mainstream culture began to notice the new meaning so much that they began to complain very loudly that GAY was being usurped. The subculture gay literature of the 1920s and 1930s is not easy to come by, but that which I have been able to examine is remarkably missing GAY in the sense of 'homosexual'; the word does occur occasionally in its primary slang sense of 'fun' or 'frivolous' or 'cheeky', and it is tempting to anachronistically project a homosexual reading back onto the earlier texts, but I don't think it is justified. Further research certainly might turn up additional evidence, particularly in the rare and unpublished texts that you mention. Much of what I have concluded comes about because I HAVE looked at some of the novels, and I have also relied on George Chauncey's remarkable archive work in the 1930s&1940s New York City police interrogation records (see his book, IN GAY NEW YORK). Meanwhile, I have tried to document all the available sources in my DICTIONARIES article in 1998, and I will be happy to send you a copy of the article if you would like to see it. In a message dated 8/25/99 9:06:47 AM, jdespres at MAIL.M-W.COM writes: << Donald Webster Cory offers the following account of the semantic genesis of GAY in his book The Homosexual in America (1951), pp. 107-08): How, when, and where this word originated, I am unable to say. I have been told by experts that it came from the French, and that in France as early as the sixteenth century the homosexual was called "gaie." Significantly enough, the feminine form was used to describe the male. The word made its way to England and America, and was used in print in some of the more pornographic literature soon after the First World War. Psychoanalysts have informed me that their homosexual patients were calling themselves "gay" in the nineteen-twenties, and certainly by the nineteen-thirties it was the most common word in use among homosexuals themselves. It was not until after Pearl Harbor that it became a magic by-word in practically every corner of the United States where homosexual might gather, and in the decade following America's entry into the Second World War I find [the word to have been in use among not only] magazine writers and gossip columnists, but even radio announcers. I've checked the French dictionaries we have on hand (including Littre, Godefroi, and Tresor de la langue francaise) and (unsurprisingly) haven't found a trace of a "homosexual" sense of gai/e. Maybe one of us needs to root around in the gay/lesbian archives at the NYPL or in the papers of some early twentieth-century psychoanalysts for early evidence of the word? Joanne Despres Merriam-Webster >> From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU Wed Aug 25 16:55:25 1999 From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:55:25 -0500 Subject: Gay & Queer Message-ID: One good (I think) source on these words is Wayne Dynes' _Homolexis_ (1985, Saber Monograph #4, NY: Scholarship Committee of the Gay Academic Union). I only have a few xeroxed pages of it, but some of the things it says about gay: - considerable argot uses among homosexuals 1920s-60s. - no evidence of it (to mean 'homosexual', that is) in Romance languages until after American/English influence in 1970s. - "Despite assertations to the contrary, thus far not one unambiguous attestation of the word to refer to homosexual men has surfaced from the nineteenth century. Any new evidence purporting to cite _gay_ in the present sense must be carefully scrutinized. It is unlikely that it will bear serious examination." The stuff on queer in this source is rather brief, but notes that "queer" was common in England in the 1920s (I think--the prose is a bit ambiguous re: date), producing Cockney slang phrases with "beer" in them. Lynne, who, unlike Barry, thinks Swaziland is a great vacation spot -- M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English, Baylor University PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA Phone: 254-710-6983 Fax: 254-710-3894 http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Aug 25 20:17:53 1999 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse T Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:17:53 -0400 Subject: Gay & Queer In-Reply-To: <830e1cf7.24f56b90@aol.com> from "RonButters@AOL.COM" at Aug 25, 99 11:53:52 am Message-ID: > > Thanks for pointing me towards Cory; maybe I dismissed him too quickly when I > started researching QUEER vs. GAY a few years ago. All I know right now is > that "Donald Webster Cory" is a pseudonym (for just whom I can't remember), It was a pseudonym for Edward Sagarin, who published _The Anatomy of Dirty Words_ under his real name in 1962 Jesse Sheidlower From pds at VISI.COM Thu Aug 26 00:45:32 1999 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:45:32 -0500 Subject: Second prize: TWO WEEKS in Swaziland In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:04 PM 8/24/1999 EDT, Barry wrote: > SECOND PRIZE, TWO MONTHS IN LENINGRAD (1984) was a play by Trish >Johnson. Did the joke originate in Russia? Was comedian Jackov Smirnov the >first to tell it? If Barry is asking specifically about Leningrad, I don't know. If he is asking about the generic one-week/two-weeks joke, it goes (at least) as far back as W C Fields who used it against Philadelphia. (Often, I suspect; although my only source is a tape of an old Fred Allen radio show. no date.) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET Thu Aug 26 19:28:47 1999 From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:28:47 -0700 Subject: Second prize: TWO WEEKS in Swaziland Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: Was comedian Jackov Smirnov the first to tell it? > Don't know about that, Barry, but he told one that I've always considered a > classic: "Know what I like best about America? Warning shots." > From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Thu Aug 26 17:12:13 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:12:13 -0400 Subject: block that metaphor... Message-ID: I recommend the CdC (Cirque de Cliche') at http://www.jps.net/petista/index.html As the Cirque de Cliche (hereafter referenced as "CdC") mission statement reads: To offer the public best of breed cliches whose wide acceptance will lift the American figure of speech industry out of its current doldrums and drive a renewed period of vigorous growth. And that, really, says it all. -- Mark From sllauns at CWIS.ISU.EDU Thu Aug 26 18:45:35 1999 From: sllauns at CWIS.ISU.EDU (Sonja L Launspach) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 12:45:35 -0600 Subject: idaho dialect Message-ID: I'm teaching an undergraduate class in language studies and one of the units is on Language variation. I would like to have my students read something about the local dialect--southeastern Idaho, but so far I haven't been able to find anything. Does anyone know of any work done on this part of the country? I've found some articles on the Pacific Northwest and Salt Lake City. I'd appreciate any suggestion y'all might have. Thanks Sonja Launspach _______________________________________________________________________ Sonja Launspach Assistant Professor Linguistics Dept.of English & Philosophy Idaho State University Pocatello, ID 83209 208-236-2478 fax:208-236-4472 email: sllauns at isu.edu From jeclapp at WANS.NET Thu Aug 26 20:30:13 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:30:13 -0400 Subject: block that metaphor... Message-ID: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote: > > I recommend the CdC (Cirque de Cliche') at http://www.jps.net/petista/index.html That must be where the writers for a horrible "Amazing Videos" show I watched last night while eating a TV dinner get their material. One segment ended with the narrator intoning: "[So-and-so] cheated death that day--and lived to tell the tale!!" Duh! On the other hand, I think the Cirque de Cliche site (they don't use the acute accent) should be renamed Cirque de Oxymoron. The first item on their navigation bar is headed "New Cliches . . ." Huh? James E. Clapp From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Aug 26 22:28:13 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:28:13 EDT Subject: Naked City; Only in New York; Biscuit; Mozart Effect Message-ID: The Performing Arts Library and the regular library closed unexpectedly early today, so I didn't check the Mark Hellinger clippings for "naked city" or the many books on W. C. Fields to record his catch phrases. (Maybe Saturday.) We pray for rain, so it rains, and it pours, and the subways are flooded, and the tunnels are flooded, and people can't get home. I knew I should have never left that beach in Western Turkey! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- NAKED CITY There was a tv show called NAKED CITY and a movie called NAKED CITY. According to the Worldcat entry, the 1947 movie was a Mark Hellinger production. Of the script by Albert Maltz: "Original title 'Homicide' crossed out and 'Naked City' pencilled in." The photographer Weegee did a book (now reprinted and in stores all over) titled NAKED CITY in 1945. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ONLY IN NEW YORK From the NEW YORK OBSERVER, 30 August 1999, pg. 6, col. 4: Close readers of Cindy Adams' column in the _New York Post_ may have noticed that her kicker--"Only in New York, kids, only in New York"--now has a little "TM" right next to it. "She trademarked it," said a _Post_ spokesman. Adams (the photo caption calls her a "gossipeuse") can trademark the thing said twice and with "kids" added, but "Only in New York" has been around for decades, much before Cindy Adams started her column. Only in America. Land of opportunity, yeah. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FASHION "BISCUITS" From the NEW YORK OBSERVER, 30 August 1999, pg. 28, col. 4: 2. In fashionspeak, what are "biscuits?" c. According to _Out_ magazine, an insulting reference to the overhang of a manly foot crammed into a delicate mule. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MOZART EFFECT Now that there's no "Mozart Effect" (increasing intelligence levels by playing classical music to young children), can we retire the buzzword? From dumasb at UTK.EDU Thu Aug 26 23:27:28 1999 From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:27:28 -0400 Subject: Team teaching Message-ID: OUr situation was resolved, and we now have a Lx 200 instructor. The crisis was helpful; in the past few dyas, poential instructors have come out of the woodwork. We may be able to offer multiple sections next year. Thanks for your help. Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Aug 27 00:27:19 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:27:19 EDT Subject: Sports Illustrated, 1967 Message-ID: From a brief SPORTS ILLUSTRATED check of part of this year: KISS (KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID)--7 August 1967, pg. 42, col. 2. The RHHDAS has 1971 (although the citation discusses the military of 1963). Nothing less than 100% simplicity will do in a pro football huddle. A quarterback has to practice Allie Sherman's KISS system: "Keep It Simple, Stupid!" WELCOME TO THE N.F.L.--24 July 1967, pg. 24, col. 1. Said to the victim after a bruising hit. Probably taken from "Welcome to the Army!" It was soon followed by "Welcome to New York!" I (Fran Tarkenton--ed.) was lying there still wondering what country I was in when Van Brocklin came over and said in that inimitable style of his: "Welcome to the National Football League, kid!" WELCOME TO THE CLUB--31 July 1967, pg. 38, col. 2. The phrase goes back a few decades earlier, but this is for comparison with the above. Also written by Fran Tarkenton. "Well, kid," he said, "you've arrived! You're now an NFL quarterback. They've booed you and you've been replaced. Welcome to the club!" BRICK WALL WITH ARMS--7 August 1967, pg. 13, col. 1. Said of any large NFL player. The phrase should be much older than this. Bill Pickens, 6'10", 270-pound defensive line candidate with the Kansas City Chiefs after his first contact with their All-League offensive tackle, Jim Tyrer: "It's like running into a brick wall that has arms." STICK IT IN YOUR EAR!--7 August 1967, pg. 4, col. 1. The photo shows Sandy Koufax (the fax machine was not named after him) sticking a ball into staff photographer Herbie Scharfman's ear. The East Side, New York-born Scharfman also says "Stop walking so fast, already?" and "What are you, _kidding_ me?" Or to pitchers: "Look, Sandy, I'm telling ya to stick it in his ear, see?" THIS COULD BE YOU--31 July 1967, pg. 13, col. 2. This catch phrase is not in Partridge. It probably started "this could be you...in a new automobile." The ad is for flying lessons with Piper Aircraft. (Ads like it possibly appeared in earlier issues.) This could be you..about to land on a secluded Bahama out-island with _you_ as pilot in command! Impossible? Not at all. Start flying lessons now... WHEN (E. F. HUTTON) TALKS, PEOPLE LISTEN--31 July 1967, pg. 60. An advertisement for the Magazine Publishers Association possibly pre-dates the E. F. Hutton ad. _When private citizen O'Mara speaks, the Generals listen_ General Foods, General Motors, General Mills _better_ pay attention to the likes of Mrs. O'Mara. Because she--and you--buy only the brands you like... A BUNCH OF GOODWILL AMBASSADORS WHO WOULD RATHER QUIT THAN FIGHT--31 July 1967, pg. 63, col. 3. This letter refers to the July 3rd story "The Best Losers in the World." People are rarely chided with being "goodwill ambassadors" anymore. It seems to me that the article referring to our U. S. Davis Cup team as "a bunch of goodwill ambassadors who would rather quit than fight" serves no constructive purpose whatsoever. JUST WON'T QUIT--10 July 1967, pg. 1. Dial soap ad. Just won't quit! THEY KNOW HOW TO WIN--31 July 1967, pg. 62, col. 1. This cliche is said of winners, especially a winning team not composed of great individual talents. ...Paul Casanova proclaimed, "We will win the pennant. Look at these guys, they know how to win." SHOW ME A GOOD LOSER AND I'LL SHOW YOU A _LOSER_--17 July 1967, pg. 82, col. 2. Probably a phrase by people from Missouri who don't know how to win. That's what it's all about: winning. Show me a good loser, and I'll (Fran Tarkenton--ed.) show you a _loser_. I'd rather be a good winner any day. SURF TALK--24 July 1967, pg. 51, col. 1. A nice article titled "Summer Surfers" about Hawaii. It includes "trip-taker," "hot dog," and more. "You've sort of got three different kinds of kids here. There are the bleachies, the California dreamers. They throw around a lot of surf talk--shoot the Pipe, and all that junk--but they wouldn't go near a big wave. Their chicks have probably got a hairbrush in their bikinis." "Yuk," said one of the Lindas. "Then there are the trip-takers," said Jabo. "You know, the pot smokers and LSD blasters--hippies. (...) Anybody hanging around Waikiki right now is _not_ a good surfer. They're just hot dogs on two-foot waves, putting some chick on. Anyhow, the third basic group is us--the good guys." A GLOSSARY OF SPANISH TERMS USED IN TOREO, 24 July 1967, pg. 36, includes: Alternativa, aviso, ayudado por alto, banderillero, becerro, brega, bronco, cargar la suerta, chicuelina, cite de frente, cornada, cuadrilla, de firma, derechazo, descabello, en redondo, faena, lance, lidia, manso, media, muleta, natural, novillo, novillada, pase, pase de pecho, pinchazo, quite, remate, templar, toreo, toro, veronica, vuelta. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- P.S. I like Swaziland! It just sounds funny! From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Aug 27 00:31:50 1999 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:31:50 -0400 Subject: Gay & Queer In-Reply-To: <830e1cf7.24f56b90@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Aug 1999 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote: > Thanks for pointing me towards Cory; maybe I dismissed him too quickly when I > started researching QUEER vs. GAY a few years ago. All I know right now is > that "Donald Webster Cory" is a pseudonym (for just whom I can't remember), > and THE HOMOSEXUAL IN AMERICA, A SUBJECTIVE APPROACH, though apparently > written c.1951, was not published until a decade later in any of the texts > that I have seen (though I haven't seen them all). The authoritativeness of The first edition of this book was indeed published in 1951. Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM Fri Aug 27 18:37:01 1999 From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:37:01 -0400 Subject: cheap cosmos Message-ID: Seen on the wall menu of a pizzeria in Williamsport, Penna., in the "sandwich" section: ALL COSMOS EXTRA 15 On inquiring, I was informed that [approx. transcr.] "a cosmo... you put it in the oven to heat it up". So, apparently, any sandwich can be made into a cosmo by heating it up in the oven for 15 cents additional. -- Mark A. Mandel From avine at ENG.SUN.COM Fri Aug 27 18:38:57 1999 From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:38:57 -0700 Subject: Ancient martial arts Message-ID: >From the Merriam-Webster Word of the Day site today (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/mwwod.pl): Ninjas originated in the mountains of Japan about 800 years ago as practitioners of ninjutsu, a martial art sometimes called "the art of stealth" or "the art of invisibility." They often served as military spies and were trained in disguise, concealment, geography, meteorology, medicine, and other martial arts. I am particularly interested in geography as a martial art. I wonder how that would go - brisk hiking up steep slopes, crushing the rocks beneath one's feet? What would the medical training instructor be like, John Belushi as "Samurai Surgeon"? ;-} Andrea -- Andrea Vine Sun-Netscape Alliance messaging i18n architect avine at eng.sun.com I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{ Of course, I _am_ an architect. From AAllan at AOL.COM Fri Aug 27 19:03:15 1999 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:03:15 EDT Subject: Define Detroit Message-ID: FWiW, from the Detroit Free Press: What's going on: Define Detroit August 27, 1999 WHAT DO YOU SAY? Define Detroit by sending words Hey, if it's good enough for the Brits, it's good enough for the Motor City. The editors of the venerable Oxford English Dictionary are looking for new words to include in the 2010 revision of the OED. (Send 'em to 1999 Appeal, OED, Oxford University Press, Great Clarendon St., Oxford, England OX2 6DP.) But that got us thinking: Why not a Detroit English Dictionary? Why not explore the roots of the colorful language that separates us from the rest of the world? That's where you come in. Send your words and phrases -- and definitions and anything else you know about them -- to What's Going On, Detroit Free Press, 600 W. Fort St., Detroit, MI 48226. Or fax it to 313-222-5397. Prefer e-mail? Send it to whatsgoingon at freepress.com. - Allan Metcalf From magura at CZ.TOP.PL Sat Aug 28 18:07:02 1999 From: magura at CZ.TOP.PL (Michal Lisecki) Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:07:02 +0200 Subject: r-lessness in American Dialects In-Reply-To: <199908240214.WAA17484@linguistlist.org> Message-ID: Dear ADS subscribers, On the Linguist List I've seen a query which I am sure you, as "sound-sensitive" Americans, can help better than I. I have emailed Yukiko and she was delighted to hear about ADS. I have already advised her to take a look at some pronounciation dictionaries containing the information on the distribution of various pronounciation patterns even along the time (e.g. 'A Pronouncing Dictionary of American English' by John S. Kenyon and Thomas A. Knott). Should you know of any other good resources containing the information on the American pronounciation pleas let me also know about it. Otherwise please forward any responses to the query at Yukiko's email address: Thanks and take care! Yours lurkerly...but nevertheless faithful(ly) ;-) >Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:00:40 +0900 >From: "Yukiko Yoshino" >Subject: r-lessness in American Dialects > >Dear Sir/Madam; > >My name is Yukiko Yoshino. I'm currently a senior undergraduate at >Miyazaki Municipal University in Japan. > >I am studying Dialects of American English in order to write >graduation thesis which title is "Regional distribution of r-lessness >in American English" > >However, I have difficulty in finding the articles about this area, >because I live in Japan. I want to investigate the regional >distribution of a phonetic feature - a postvocalic /r/ in terms of >historical development. > >Would you tell me some articles as to these fields ? > >Thank you in advance for your attention to this matter. > >Sincerely Yours, > >Yukiko Yoshino tafn mike _______________________________________________________________ Michal Lisecki, Ph.D candidate Institute of Slavonic Studies, University of Silesia (Poland) http://www.cz.top.pl/~magura finger 4 my PGP From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Aug 29 23:07:46 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 19:07:46 EDT Subject: Charles Harrington Elster (continued) Message-ID: Charles Harrington Elster substituted for William Safire in the "On Language" column in today's New York Times. He calls himself a "word detective." Many months ago, I posted here (Gareth Branwyn had just been in contact with Elster) an offer that Elster can join the American Dialect Society and the American Name Society for free. I'd pay his dues. No questions asked. Free. There was no response. I sent a certified letter to the New York Times. There was still no response. The New York Times must have no standards at all. From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET Mon Aug 30 01:14:19 1999 From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 20:14:19 -0500 Subject: Charles Harrington Elster (continued) Message-ID: If the New York Times has standards, they are lower than those of the National Enquirer, which refused to print the name of the woman who filed rape charges against the Kennedy cousin; the NYT and major TV networks were not troubled by any such scruples. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 29, 1999 6:07 PM Subject: Charles Harrington Elster (continued) > Charles Harrington Elster substituted for William Safire in the "On > Language" column in today's New York Times. He calls himself a "word > detective." > Many months ago, I posted here (Gareth Branwyn had just been in contact > with Elster) an offer that Elster can join the American Dialect Society and > the American Name Society for free. I'd pay his dues. No questions asked. > Free. > There was no response. > I sent a certified letter to the New York Times. > There was still no response. > The New York Times must have no standards at all. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Aug 30 01:05:20 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:05:20 EDT Subject: The Old Waldorf-Astoria Bar Book (long!) Message-ID: The Waldorf-Astoria Hotel didn't have this book, but the NYPL Annex did. The book is excellent for drink etymologies. (FWIW: A letter-to-the-editor appears in the City Section of today's Sunday New York Times on the drinkability of the lime "rickey.") _THE OLD WALDORF-ASTORIA BAR BOOK_ Giving the Correct Recipes for FIVE HUNDRED COCKTAILS AND MIXED DRINKS... The Whole Flavored with Dashes of History Mixed in a Shaker of Anecdote and Served with a Chaser of Iluminative Information. By Albert Stevens Crockett (Historian of the Old Waldorf-Astoria) Pg. 35 ADONIS...Named in honor of a theatrical offering which first made Henry E. Dixey and Fanny Ward famous. Pg. 38 BIRD...So named by the person on whom it was first tried. "That's a bird!" he exclaimed, smacking his lips. Pg. 39 JACK...Supposed to have been called that from knockout effects consequent upon indulgence. Pg. 40 BRIGHTON...So called from the race course near Brighton Beach, where many Bar habitues spent their afternoons when that track topped the racing calendar. Pg. 41 BRONX...Many claimants to the honor of inventing the Bronx have arisen. It was an Old Waldorf tradition that the inventor was Johnnie Solon (or Solan), popular as one of the best mixers behind its bar counter for most of the latter's history. This is Solon's own story of the Creation--of the Bronx: "We had a cocktail in those days called the Duplex, which had a pretty fair demand. One day, I was making one for a customer when in came Traverson, head waiter of the Empire Room--the main dining room in the original Waldorf. A Duplex was composed of equal parts of French and Italian Vermouth, shaken up with squeezed orange peel, or two dashes of Orange Bitters. Traverson said, 'Why don't you get up a new cocktail? I have a customer who says you can't do it.' "'Can't I?' I replied. "Well, I finished the Duplex I was making, and a thought came to me. I poured into a mizing glass the equivalent of two jiggers of Gordon Gin. Then I filled the jigger with orange juice, so that it made one-third or orange juice and two-thirds of Gin. Then into the mixture I put a dash each of Italian and French Vermouth, shaking the thing up. I didn't taste it myself, but I poured it into a cocktail glass and handed it to Traverson and said: 'You are a pretty good judge. (He was.) See what you think of that.' Traverson tasted it. Then he swallowed it whole. "'By God!' he said, 'you've really got something new! That will make a big hit. Make me another and I will take it back to that customer in the dining room. Bet you'll sell a lot of them. Have you got plenty of oranges? If you haven't, you better stock up, because I'm going to sell a lot of those cocktails during lunch.' "The demand for Bronx cocktails started that day. Pretty soon we were using a whole case of oranges a day. And then several cases. "The name? No, it wasn't really named directly after the borough or the river so-called. I had been at the Bronx Zoo a day or two before, and I saw, of course, a lot of beasts I had never known. Customers used to tell me of the strange animals they saw after a lot of mixed drinks. So when Traverson said to me, as he started to take the drink in to the customer, 'What'll I tell him is the name of this drink?' I thought of those animals, and said: 'Oh, you can tell him it is a "Bronx."'" Pg. 43 CHANLER..."Sheriff Bob" Chanler, artist, married Lina Cavalieri, of the Metropolitan and made the front pages early in the century. Pg. 43 CHANTICLEER...Celebrated the local opening of Edmund Rostand's _Chanticler_. Pg. 45 CLOVER CLUB...A Philadelphia importation, originated in the bar of the old Bellevue-Stratford, where the Clover Club, composed of literary, legal, financial and business lights of the Quaker City, often dined and wined, and wined again. Pg. 47 DEFENDER...The name of an American yacht which took care of one of Sir Thomas Lipton's early but seemingly endless "Shamrocks." Pg. 48 DORLANDO...After the Italian marathon runner in the Olympic games in London, 1908. Pg. 48 DOWN...What else, in faith, than a county in Ireland--ancient home of many American bartenders? Pg. 50 FLOATER...There is equal authority for a contention that this was called after a racehorse owned by the late James R. Keene, or after an individual numerically important, and who was transported into various precincts at different hours of Election Day and thereby enabled to vote early and often, as the saying was. Pg. 52 HALSEY...Named in compliment to a well known stock-broker and patron of the Bar. Pg. 52 HAMLIN...Took its name from Harry Hamlin of Buffalo, an enthusiastic automobilist in the days when there were far more enthusiasts than automobiles. Pp. 53-54 HOFFMAN HOUSE...Conceived at the old Hotel in Madison Square whose bar was famous before the Old Waldorf was built, for the length of its brass rail, the Bougereau painting of nudities on the wall, and the notability of many of its patrons. Served at Old Waldorf Bar, but was not in the original Bar Book. Pg. 55 JAPALAC...So styled in compliment to a salesman who sold a product of that name; not because it would enamel a digestive apparatus. Pg. 57 LOFTUS...Called in compliment to Cissie Loftus, famous English comedienne and mimic, long a popular top-liner. Pg. 57 LONE TREE...After the 1899 equaivalent of a "nineteenth hole"--a tree which stood alone in a secluded part of a golf course near Philadelphia. Players on that course frequented the Old Waldorf Bar. Pp. 57-58 MACLEAN...In honor of John R. MacLean, long proprietor of the Cincinnati _Enquirer_ and the Washington _Post_. Pg. 58 MANHATTAN...Origin somewhat obscure. Probably first called after a well known club of that name, and not after an island famed for many years as the abode and domain of a certain "Tiger." Pg. 60 METROPOLE...Attributed to a once well known and somewhat lively hotel, whose bar was long a center of life after dark in the Times Square district. Pg. 60 METROPOLITAN...After a New York club, long popularly called "The Millionaires." Pg. 61 MONAHAN SPECIAL...Called after Mike Monahan, one of the Waldorf bar-keepers, its inventor. Pg. 62 NETHERLAND...Possibly invented at the Hotel Netherland, a contemporary of the Old Waldorf. Pg. 62 NEWMAN...Patronymic of a man who for a time ran the old Haymarket, a widely famed Tenderloin resort. Pp. 62-63 NORMANDIE...The name of a hotel in Broadway's early spotlight district, patronized by sportsmen and sports. Pg. 63 NUTTING...Its namesake was Col. Andrew J. Nutting, of Brooklyn, an ardent patron of the Bar for many years. Pp. 63-64 OLD-FASHIONED WHISKEY...This was brought to the Old Waldorf in the days of its "sit-down" Bar, and was introduced by, or in honor of, Col. James E. Pepper, of Kentucky, proprietor of a celebrated whiskey of the period. It was said to have been the invention of a bartender at the famous Pendennis Club in Louisville, of which Col. Pepper was a member. Pp. 71-72 SOUL KISS...After a musical comedy of that name, which, because of its appellation, stirred up a good many ideas among the young--and middle-aged--about the latter part of the first decade of the century. Pp. 73-74 THOMPSON...After Denman Thompson, the actor, who made "The Old Homestead" famous, and upon whom that play had equally beneficent results. Pp. 77-78 WOXUM...Some think it is aboriginally American, and ascribe it to a "bunch of Indians," so-called, who occasionally made whoopee--or, as it was said at that time, "raised hell"--in the Old Waldorf Bar when they could get away with it. Pg. 78 YALE...An institution somewhere beyond Old Greenwich, where many young men go for the purpose of commuting to New York for week-ends. The Old Bar used to be one of their "ports of call" and there they used to find many who in years past had gone to the same place and done the same things. Pg. 78 1915...Named in honor of a New Year. Some believe this was the last cocktail invented in the Old Waldorf Bar. Pg. 86 HIGH-BALLS...Just as is the case with "cocktail," the origin and application of "high-ball" as a name for a stimulant is open to discussion. Some have asserted that the name was taken from the National Game, possibly because of the effect upon the "batting average" of one who "hits" enough in rapid succession. However the lexicographer digs further. In slang, a drink is often described as a "shot"; in Pall-Mall English it's a "spot." High-ball, more or less pure American for what a Britisher calls a Whiskey-and-Soda, say the learned, is combined form "high," meaning tall, and descriptive of the container, and "ball," which used to be the equivalent of "shot," both metallically and absorbatively. Therefore the classical definition, "a 'long' drink consisting of whiskey, to which is added soda-water, mineral water or some other effervescent, served in a tall glass with broken ice." Pg. 94 PEGGY O'NEILL...After an opera or play of that name, it is believed. The original Peggy O'Neill was the daughter of a Washington tavern-keeper, and noted for her beauty and wit. Pg. 97 RICKEYS...The Rickey owes its name to Colonel "Joe" Rickey, though an interested public has long persisted in referring to him as "Colonel Jim" Rickey. Colonel Rickey had been a lobbyist in Washington, and as such used to buy drinks for members of COngress in the glamorous days before they had come to depend upon the discreet activities of gentlemen in green hats to keep them wet while they voted dry. The drink was invented and named for him at Shoemaker's, famous in Washington as a Congressional hangout. Pg. 100 BRUNSWICK...Invented at the Old Hotel Brunswick, once a resort for Fashion, and situated on the north side of Madison Square. Pp. 104-105 BRADLEY MARTIN...After the husband of a famous society leader who gave a much publicized ball in the room adjoining the Old Waldorf Bar, while the latter was still building. Pg. 107 FIN DE SIECLE...Name dates it back to 1899 or 1900, when the term was much used, but much mispronounced. Pp. 108-109 JOHN COLLINS...One of two members of the Collins family famous in bars in the old days. The difference between the two was that Tom Collins was made with Old Tom Gin--or supposedly--while a John Collins was made with Holland Gin. Pg. 116 WIDOW'S KISS...Just why the author of this drink should ascribe so many tastes to the osculation of some gentleman's relics, or who was the widow whose kiss was thus commemorated, it has been impossible to establish. One could only suggest that someone with an inquiring mind might catch a widow and experiment with direct labial contact. Pg. 126 CUBAN CONCOCTIONS...From Will P. Taylor, manager of the Hotel National, in Havana, who stuck at his post all through the recent local disturbances, which included a bombardment of his hotel, I have obtained the choicest Cuban Rum recipes. Out of compliment to Mr. Taylor, who was last resident manager of the Old Waldorf-Astoria, is placed at the head of this list the distinctive cocktail which at his hotel is also called a Daiquiri, or a Bacardi. Pg. 128 BOWMAN BACARDI...Named after the late John McEntee Bowman, American hotel man, who was the first to introduce modern American hotel-keeping into Havana and who, making the acquaintance of Bacardi on its native heath, probably did more to popularize it among Americans than any other one person. From mcenedella at MBA1998.HBS.EDU Mon Aug 30 01:46:56 1999 From: mcenedella at MBA1998.HBS.EDU (Marc Cenedella) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:46:56 -0400 Subject: The Old Waldorf-Astoria Bar Book (long!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: unsubscribe -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Bapopik at AOL.COM Sent: Sunday, August 29, 1999 9:05 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: The Old Waldorf-Astoria Bar Book (long!) The Waldorf-Astoria Hotel didn't have this book, but the NYPL Annex did. The book is excellent for drink etymologies. (FWIW: A letter-to-the-editor appears in the City Section of today's Sunday New York Times on the drinkability of the lime "rickey.") _THE OLD WALDORF-ASTORIA BAR BOOK_ Giving the Correct Recipes for FIVE HUNDRED COCKTAILS AND MIXED DRINKS... The Whole Flavored with Dashes of History Mixed in a Shaker of Anecdote and Served with a Chaser of Iluminative Information. By Albert Stevens Crockett (Historian of the Old Waldorf-Astoria) Pg. 35 ADONIS...Named in honor of a theatrical offering which first made Henry E. Dixey and Fanny Ward famous. Pg. 38 BIRD...So named by the person on whom it was first tried. "That's a bird!" he exclaimed, smacking his lips. Pg. 39 JACK...Supposed to have been called that from knockout effects consequent upon indulgence. Pg. 40 BRIGHTON...So called from the race course near Brighton Beach, where many Bar habitues spent their afternoons when that track topped the racing calendar. Pg. 41 BRONX...Many claimants to the honor of inventing the Bronx have arisen. It was an Old Waldorf tradition that the inventor was Johnnie Solon (or Solan), popular as one of the best mixers behind its bar counter for most of the latter's history. This is Solon's own story of the Creation--of the Bronx: "We had a cocktail in those days called the Duplex, which had a pretty fair demand. One day, I was making one for a customer when in came Traverson, head waiter of the Empire Room--the main dining room in the original Waldorf. A Duplex was composed of equal parts of French and Italian Vermouth, shaken up with squeezed orange peel, or two dashes of Orange Bitters. Traverson said, 'Why don't you get up a new cocktail? I have a customer who says you can't do it.' "'Can't I?' I replied. "Well, I finished the Duplex I was making, and a thought came to me. I poured into a mizing glass the equivalent of two jiggers of Gordon Gin. Then I filled the jigger with orange juice, so that it made one-third or orange juice and two-thirds of Gin. Then into the mixture I put a dash each of Italian and French Vermouth, shaking the thing up. I didn't taste it myself, but I poured it into a cocktail glass and handed it to Traverson and said: 'You are a pretty good judge. (He was.) See what you think of that.' Traverson tasted it. Then he swallowed it whole. "'By God!' he said, 'you've really got something new! That will make a big hit. Make me another and I will take it back to that customer in the dining room. Bet you'll sell a lot of them. Have you got plenty of oranges? If you haven't, you better stock up, because I'm going to sell a lot of those cocktails during lunch.' "The demand for Bronx cocktails started that day. Pretty soon we were using a whole case of oranges a day. And then several cases. "The name? No, it wasn't really named directly after the borough or the river so-called. I had been at the Bronx Zoo a day or two before, and I saw, of course, a lot of beasts I had never known. Customers used to tell me of the strange animals they saw after a lot of mixed drinks. So when Traverson said to me, as he started to take the drink in to the customer, 'What'll I tell him is the name of this drink?' I thought of those animals, and said: 'Oh, you can tell him it is a "Bronx."'" Pg. 43 CHANLER..."Sheriff Bob" Chanler, artist, married Lina Cavalieri, of the Metropolitan and made the front pages early in the century. Pg. 43 CHANTICLEER...Celebrated the local opening of Edmund Rostand's _Chanticler_. Pg. 45 CLOVER CLUB...A Philadelphia importation, originated in the bar of the old Bellevue-Stratford, where the Clover Club, composed of literary, legal, financial and business lights of the Quaker City, often dined and wined, and wined again. Pg. 47 DEFENDER...The name of an American yacht which took care of one of Sir Thomas Lipton's early but seemingly endless "Shamrocks." Pg. 48 DORLANDO...After the Italian marathon runner in the Olympic games in London, 1908. Pg. 48 DOWN...What else, in faith, than a county in Ireland--ancient home of many American bartenders? Pg. 50 FLOATER...There is equal authority for a contention that this was called after a racehorse owned by the late James R. Keene, or after an individual numerically important, and who was transported into various precincts at different hours of Election Day and thereby enabled to vote early and often, as the saying was. Pg. 52 HALSEY...Named in compliment to a well known stock-broker and patron of the Bar. Pg. 52 HAMLIN...Took its name from Harry Hamlin of Buffalo, an enthusiastic automobilist in the days when there were far more enthusiasts than automobiles. Pp. 53-54 HOFFMAN HOUSE...Conceived at the old Hotel in Madison Square whose bar was famous before the Old Waldorf was built, for the length of its brass rail, the Bougereau painting of nudities on the wall, and the notability of many of its patrons. Served at Old Waldorf Bar, but was not in the original Bar Book. Pg. 55 JAPALAC...So styled in compliment to a salesman who sold a product of that name; not because it would enamel a digestive apparatus. Pg. 57 LOFTUS...Called in compliment to Cissie Loftus, famous English comedienne and mimic, long a popular top-liner. Pg. 57 LONE TREE...After the 1899 equaivalent of a "nineteenth hole"--a tree which stood alone in a secluded part of a golf course near Philadelphia. Players on that course frequented the Old Waldorf Bar. Pp. 57-58 MACLEAN...In honor of John R. MacLean, long proprietor of the Cincinnati _Enquirer_ and the Washington _Post_. Pg. 58 MANHATTAN...Origin somewhat obscure. Probably first called after a well known club of that name, and not after an island famed for many years as the abode and domain of a certain "Tiger." Pg. 60 METROPOLE...Attributed to a once well known and somewhat lively hotel, whose bar was long a center of life after dark in the Times Square district. Pg. 60 METROPOLITAN...After a New York club, long popularly called "The Millionaires." Pg. 61 MONAHAN SPECIAL...Called after Mike Monahan, one of the Waldorf bar-keepers, its inventor. Pg. 62 NETHERLAND...Possibly invented at the Hotel Netherland, a contemporary of the Old Waldorf. Pg. 62 NEWMAN...Patronymic of a man who for a time ran the old Haymarket, a widely famed Tenderloin resort. Pp. 62-63 NORMANDIE...The name of a hotel in Broadway's early spotlight district, patronized by sportsmen and sports. Pg. 63 NUTTING...Its namesake was Col. Andrew J. Nutting, of Brooklyn, an ardent patron of the Bar for many years. Pp. 63-64 OLD-FASHIONED WHISKEY...This was brought to the Old Waldorf in the days of its "sit-down" Bar, and was introduced by, or in honor of, Col. James E. Pepper, of Kentucky, proprietor of a celebrated whiskey of the period. It was said to have been the invention of a bartender at the famous Pendennis Club in Louisville, of which Col. Pepper was a member. Pp. 71-72 SOUL KISS...After a musical comedy of that name, which, because of its appellation, stirred up a good many ideas among the young--and middle-aged--about the latter part of the first decade of the century. Pp. 73-74 THOMPSON...After Denman Thompson, the actor, who made "The Old Homestead" famous, and upon whom that play had equally beneficent results. Pp. 77-78 WOXUM...Some think it is aboriginally American, and ascribe it to a "bunch of Indians," so-called, who occasionally made whoopee--or, as it was said at that time, "raised hell"--in the Old Waldorf Bar when they could get away with it. Pg. 78 YALE...An institution somewhere beyond Old Greenwich, where many young men go for the purpose of commuting to New York for week-ends. The Old Bar used to be one of their "ports of call" and there they used to find many who in years past had gone to the same place and done the same things. Pg. 78 1915...Named in honor of a New Year. Some believe this was the last cocktail invented in the Old Waldorf Bar. Pg. 86 HIGH-BALLS...Just as is the case with "cocktail," the origin and application of "high-ball" as a name for a stimulant is open to discussion. Some have asserted that the name was taken from the National Game, possibly because of the effect upon the "batting average" of one who "hits" enough in rapid succession. However the lexicographer digs further. In slang, a drink is often described as a "shot"; in Pall-Mall English it's a "spot." High-ball, more or less pure American for what a Britisher calls a Whiskey-and-Soda, say the learned, is combined form "high," meaning tall, and descriptive of the container, and "ball," which used to be the equivalent of "shot," both metallically and absorbatively. Therefore the classical definition, "a 'long' drink consisting of whiskey, to which is added soda-water, mineral water or some other effervescent, served in a tall glass with broken ice." Pg. 94 PEGGY O'NEILL...After an opera or play of that name, it is believed. The original Peggy O'Neill was the daughter of a Washington tavern-keeper, and noted for her beauty and wit. Pg. 97 RICKEYS...The Rickey owes its name to Colonel "Joe" Rickey, though an interested public has long persisted in referring to him as "Colonel Jim" Rickey. Colonel Rickey had been a lobbyist in Washington, and as such used to buy drinks for members of COngress in the glamorous days before they had come to depend upon the discreet activities of gentlemen in green hats to keep them wet while they voted dry. The drink was invented and named for him at Shoemaker's, famous in Washington as a Congressional hangout. Pg. 100 BRUNSWICK...Invented at the Old Hotel Brunswick, once a resort for Fashion, and situated on the north side of Madison Square. Pp. 104-105 BRADLEY MARTIN...After the husband of a famous society leader who gave a much publicized ball in the room adjoining the Old Waldorf Bar, while the latter was still building. Pg. 107 FIN DE SIECLE...Name dates it back to 1899 or 1900, when the term was much used, but much mispronounced. Pp. 108-109 JOHN COLLINS...One of two members of the Collins family famous in bars in the old days. The difference between the two was that Tom Collins was made with Old Tom Gin--or supposedly--while a John Collins was made with Holland Gin. Pg. 116 WIDOW'S KISS...Just why the author of this drink should ascribe so many tastes to the osculation of some gentleman's relics, or who was the widow whose kiss was thus commemorated, it has been impossible to establish. One could only suggest that someone with an inquiring mind might catch a widow and experiment with direct labial contact. Pg. 126 CUBAN CONCOCTIONS...From Will P. Taylor, manager of the Hotel National, in Havana, who stuck at his post all through the recent local disturbances, which included a bombardment of his hotel, I have obtained the choicest Cuban Rum recipes. Out of compliment to Mr. Taylor, who was last resident manager of the Old Waldorf-Astoria, is placed at the head of this list the distinctive cocktail which at his hotel is also called a Daiquiri, or a Bacardi. Pg. 128 BOWMAN BACARDI...Named after the late John McEntee Bowman, American hotel man, who was the first to introduce modern American hotel-keeping into Havana and who, making the acquaintance of Bacardi on its native heath, probably did more to popularize it among Americans than any other one person. From SwainB at MOODYS.COM Mon Aug 30 14:25:14 1999 From: SwainB at MOODYS.COM (Swain, Bill) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:25:14 -0400 Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Message-ID: Ask any percussionist and they'll tell you it's a type of drumming pattern used on a snare drum... -----Original Message----- From: A. Vine [mailto:avine at ENG.SUN.COM] Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 8:33 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU Mon Aug 30 16:48:48 1999 From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:48:48 -0400 Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Message-ID: At 10:25 AM 8/30/99 -0400, "Swain, Bill" wrote: >Ask any percussionist and they'll tell you it's a type of drumming pattern >used on a snare drum... > And if they know their field, they'll tell you the pattern is called a "paradiddle" (first OED2 citation 1927) not a "taradiddle" (first OED2 citation 1796). Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu From SwainB at MOODYS.COM Mon Aug 30 17:10:27 1999 From: SwainB at MOODYS.COM (Swain, Bill) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:10:27 -0400 Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Message-ID: You're absolutely right! -----Original Message----- From: Gregory {Greg} Downing [mailto:gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU] Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 12:49 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? At 10:25 AM 8/30/99 -0400, "Swain, Bill" wrote: >Ask any percussionist and they'll tell you it's a type of drumming pattern >used on a snare drum... > And if they know their field, they'll tell you the pattern is called a "paradiddle" (first OED2 citation 1927) not a "taradiddle" (first OED2 citation 1796). Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu From jeclapp at WANS.NET Mon Aug 30 17:27:37 1999 From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:27:37 -0400 Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Message-ID: Swain, Bill wrote: > > Ask any percussionist and they'll tell you it's a type of drumming pattern > used on a snare drum... As already noted, that's a paradiddle. The strokes are LRLL RLRR LRLL RLRR, etc.--but evenly spaced. For mnemonic purposes you can think of each stroke corresponding to one syllable of the name. The double paradiddle has two extra strokes: LRLRLL RLRLRR LRLRLL, etc. As you play it you can hear in your mind "paraparadiddle paraparadiddle ..." Then there's the flam paradiddle, a.k.a. the flamadiddle--a paradiddle in which the first stroke of each set of four is a flam (which is two actually two strokes very close together, with accent on the second stroke). Of course, as you practice it you hear in your mind "flamadiddle flamadiddle flamadiddle." These basic drumming patterns are called the rudiments. There are twenty-six. The easier and more basic are "the first thirteen"; the more difficult and advanced are "the second thirteen." For our next lesson: the triple ratamacue. (Which I may be misspelling. It's been a while since I was in the high school band.) James E. Clapp From SwainB at MOODYS.COM Mon Aug 30 17:39:19 1999 From: SwainB at MOODYS.COM (Swain, Bill) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:39:19 -0400 Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Message-ID: Yes, of course it's PARADIDDLE... not taradiddle. -----Original Message----- From: James E. Clapp [mailto:jeclapp at WANS.NET] Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 1:28 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Swain, Bill wrote: > > Ask any percussionist and they'll tell you it's a type of drumming pattern > used on a snare drum... As already noted, that's a paradiddle. The strokes are LRLL RLRR LRLL RLRR, etc.--but evenly spaced. For mnemonic purposes you can think of each stroke corresponding to one syllable of the name. The double paradiddle has two extra strokes: LRLRLL RLRLRR LRLRLL, etc. As you play it you can hear in your mind "paraparadiddle paraparadiddle ..." Then there's the flam paradiddle, a.k.a. the flamadiddle--a paradiddle in which the first stroke of each set of four is a flam (which is two actually two strokes very close together, with accent on the second stroke). Of course, as you practice it you hear in your mind "flamadiddle flamadiddle flamadiddle." These basic drumming patterns are called the rudiments. There are twenty-six. The easier and more basic are "the first thirteen"; the more difficult and advanced are "the second thirteen." For our next lesson: the triple ratamacue. (Which I may be misspelling. It's been a while since I was in the high school band.) James E. Clapp From stephen.harper at WORLDNET.ATT.NET Mon Aug 30 15:02:39 1999 From: stephen.harper at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Steve Harper) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:02:39 -0400 Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? In-Reply-To: <45608A23FAF4D211977B00805FD4A73B7EDD97@MDYNYCMSX4> Message-ID: Per my Microsoft Book shelf dictionary: tarradiddle 1. A petty falsehood; a fib. 2. Silly pretentious speech or writing; twaddle. [origin unknown] paradiddle Music. A pattern of drumbeats characterized by four basic beats and alternating left-handed and right-handed strokes on the successive primary beats. -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Swain, Bill Sent: August 30, 1999 10:25 To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? Ask any percussionist and they'll tell you it's a type of drumming pattern used on a snare drum... -----Original Message----- From: A. Vine [mailto:avine at ENG.SUN.COM] Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 8:33 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: taradiddle - another etymological challenge? From jessie at SIRSI.COM Mon Aug 30 18:33:28 1999 From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:33:28 -0500 Subject: Singlish Message-ID: Singapore government wants to eradicate "Singlish." More on BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_433000/433745.stm From pds at VISI.COM Mon Aug 30 21:38:39 1999 From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko) Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:38:39 -0500 Subject: r-lessness in American Dialects In-Reply-To: <199908282007020330.0385D334@mail.cz.top.pl> Message-ID: A popular treatment of r-lessness (or, more strictly, r-lessness-lessness) in Southern speech aired this past weekend on PRI's "This American Life with Ira Glass". The author of the segment, Mark Schone, complains that actors and their dialect coaches who endeavor to reproduce "The Southern Accent" invariably give us what he calls the "Foghorn Leghorn Accent". (He seems to be unaware of Senator Clagghorn.) Special scorn is reserved for a supposedly prominent dialect coach in NYC, one Sam Schwa. (I'm not making this up.) The segment is available as a RealAudio file on the show's Web site: http://www.thislife.org/pages/archive99.html Schone's segment is Act Three and begins at about minute 30. Schone claims to have consulted with linguists. Anyone want to 'fess up? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 31 15:38:12 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 11:38:12 EDT Subject: Carpetbagger; Lookit Message-ID: LOOKIT (continued) A recent William Safire column mentioned "lookit," and I posted here that I remembered the word used by the cartoonist Briggs. It's in "The Days of Real Sport" by Briggs (syndicated by the New York Tribune), 6 May 1917: "OH BUCK!! HERE COMES SKIN-NAY! LOOKIT!" (I was looking for "jaywalking.") ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- CARPETBAGGER (continued) This is from the MONTGOMERY (Alabama) WEEKLY ADVERTISER, 25 February 1868, pg. 2, col. 1: _The Radical Defeat in Alabama._ The defeated carpet-baggers of this State are driven to other desperation. They are hopelessly gone, unless, by falsehoods and misrepresentations, they can prevail on Congress to save them. (...) Radical reconstruction is plainly, fairly and squarely beaten in Alabama, by fifteen to twenty thousand. The carpet-baggers may attempt to conceal these facts; and they may succeed. (...) _Perplexities of Defeated Carpet Baggers._ (...) The negroes are becoming heartily disgusted with the carpet-bag adventurers for whose benefit the Congressional plan of reconstruction was attempted. (...) It may be that Congress will agree to what is now asked. The intelligence of the South may be subjected to African ignorance. We may have forced upon us the galling yoke of carpet bag tyranny. (...) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Aug 31 19:07:01 1999 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:07:01 EDT Subject: (Ugly/Crazy) for the rest of your life Message-ID: OLD WALDORF-ASTORIA BAR BOOK (continued) It appears I left off the date. There were two copyright dates on it--1931 and 1934. However, it appears that all of the drinks were mixed before the prohibition years. This would antedate "daiquiri"--OED has an F. Scott Fitzgerald novel from 1920. Fitzgerald may very well have picked "daiquiri" up from the Waldorf bar--which got it from Cuba. -------------------------------------------------------- (UGLY/CRAZY) FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE My tour guide in Turkey was a tall, blonde woman who was quite attractive, but she had a dark secret. I wondered about the "beauty marks" on her face. "A dog ripped my face," she told me. "When I was young, my parents bought a dog. And it was the wrong kind of dog..." The other kids teased her, but she said she got back at them with this line: "My face will heal, but you'll be ugly for the rest of your life!" I haven't tracked down that exact quote, but this comes from my research on W. C. Fields, in the classic film IT'S A GIFT (1934): "I'll be sober tomorrow, but you'll be crazy the rest of your life." From dsgood at VISI.COM Tue Aug 31 19:35:45 1999 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:35:45 -0500 Subject: "frybread" "fry bread" Message-ID: Can anyone help with this? Dan Goodman dsgood at visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:11:45 EDT From: CherylStJ at aol.com Reply-To: prock-research at mail-list.com To: prock-research-d at mail-list.com Subject: [prock-research] frybread and comfy Generous listmembers-- I need immediate help with a line edit that I must return ASAP. One: The copy editor noted that Webster's says "frybread" didn't come into use until 1950. My characters are Cheyenne and the year is approximately 1885. She also divided it into two words: fry bread Can someone offer information? And if I can't use frybread as a staple, what other dish made from grain would my character prepare for a meal? From Ellen.Polsky at COLORADO.EDU Tue Aug 31 22:22:10 1999 From: Ellen.Polsky at COLORADO.EDU (POLSKY ELLEN S) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:22:10 -0600 Subject: "frybread" "fry bread" (fwd) Message-ID: My husband's contribution below. Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky at Colorado.EDU) >Can anyone help with this? > >Dan Goodman >dsgood at visi.com >http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html >Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:11:45 EDT >From: CherylStJ at aol.com >Reply-To: prock-research at mail-list.com >To: prock-research-d at mail-list.com >Subject: [prock-research] frybread and comfy > >Generous listmembers-- > >I need immediate help with a line edit that I must return ASAP. > >One: >The copy editor noted that Webster's says "frybread" didn't come into use >until 1950. My characters are Cheyenne and the year is approximately 1885. >She also divided it into two words: fry bread >Can someone offer information? And if I can't use frybread as a staple, what >other dish made from grain would my character prepare for a meal? I don't know if Webster's is referring to the date of the citation or the date of the item, but I'm sure their citation is too recent, unless a different term was used earlier. I'll see if i can find out anything. In the meantime, I believe that frybread, whatever it was called, came into use with reservation living and government distributions or store purchases, which introduced wheat flour and lard as staples. For the Cheyenne I think this had started by the 1870s or so, but I'm rather vague on this sort of thing without consulting a suitable history. The Cheyenne, of course, a fairly well documented, and you must have access to such material. There were aborignal forms of bread in North America, corn-based of course, but something like corn bread is, I think more of a southeastern dish. It wouldn't have baking powder to raise it, of course. Dorsey and Fletcher & LaFlesche on the Omaha discuss cooking and various dishes, though for a group much more settled than the Cheyenne before reservation days and after the late 1700s/early 1800s when they abandoned their last settled villages. The Omaha of the late 1800s had something they called by the same term they apply to breads and cakes today. The term is, if I recall correctly, a loan from a Muskogean language. I think it was a mixture of cornmeal and water, baked or maybe boiled, generally with beans included. It would be more of a stiff mush or pudding, or maybe a very crumbly, hard cornbread if baked. You can refer to the books mentioned for details. I'm not sure if there are comparable references for the Cheyenne, but you should definitely check, if you want to depict Cheyenne domesticity c. 1885. Most nomadic groups in the 1700s and 1800s traded for corn and other crops with more settled groups, so I'd guess that the Cheyenne used corn opportunistically throughout the 1800s, in their nomadic phase, but I'm not sure they had a means of grinding it. Mortars and metates are both rather heavy and take a lot of labor to make. You might want to think in terms of boiled corn mixed with beans or meat (or not). John E. Koontz NIST 895.05 303-487-5180 From SwainB at MOODYS.COM Tue Aug 31 20:32:41 1999 From: SwainB at MOODYS.COM (Swain, Bill) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:32:41 -0400 Subject: "frybread" "fry bread" Message-ID: Dan- another thought... "frybread" is generic and could be many different kinds of fried dough. "Fry bread" is French toast, at least in southern Appalachia. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Goodman [mailto:dsgood at VISI.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 3:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "frybread" "fry bread" Can anyone help with this? Dan Goodman dsgood at visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:11:45 EDT From: CherylStJ at aol.com Reply-To: prock-research at mail-list.com To: prock-research-d at mail-list.com Subject: [prock-research] frybread and comfy Generous listmembers-- I need immediate help with a line edit that I must return ASAP. One: The copy editor noted that Webster's says "frybread" didn't come into use until 1950. My characters are Cheyenne and the year is approximately 1885. She also divided it into two words: fry bread Can someone offer information? And if I can't use frybread as a staple, what other dish made from grain would my character prepare for a meal? From SwainB at MOODYS.COM Tue Aug 31 20:28:21 1999 From: SwainB at MOODYS.COM (Swain, Bill) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:28:21 -0400 Subject: "frybread" "fry bread" Message-ID: What are the circumstances? Is your character cooking over an open fire, or on a woodstove? There are a number of traditional "frybread" type breads that could be prepared either over an open fire or on top of a stove such as johnny-cake or johnny-bread, corn-pone, doughnuts (or do-nuts) hush puppies, or ashcake (probably the oldest and most widely known among early settlers and frontiersmen - it can be prepared without a pan). I'll check some sources, but I remember the term frybread used in some very old Smoky Mountain folk tales that my great granddaddy used to tell my Daddy. These stories were all in the oral tradition and not written down until Richard Chase came along back in the 30's, but in accordance with North Carolina hillbilly pronunciation if I were to transcribe it I would definitely spell it "frybread" - one word. Another pertinent question is of which ethnic descent is your character? Every culture in the world has some form of fried dough. Your character would probably call whatever is being cooked by the term used by his/her parents/grandparents. If your character is Cheyenne there is probably an Indian term for fried dough that would be even more authentic. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Goodman [mailto:dsgood at VISI.COM] Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 3:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: "frybread" "fry bread" Can anyone help with this? Dan Goodman dsgood at visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:11:45 EDT From: CherylStJ at aol.com Reply-To: prock-research at mail-list.com To: prock-research-d at mail-list.com Subject: [prock-research] frybread and comfy Generous listmembers-- I need immediate help with a line edit that I must return ASAP. One: The copy editor noted that Webster's says "frybread" didn't come into use until 1950. My characters are Cheyenne and the year is approximately 1885. She also divided it into two words: fry bread Can someone offer information? And if I can't use frybread as a staple, what other dish made from grain would my character prepare for a meal? From marliss at HROADS.NET Wed Aug 25 21:15:46 1999 From: marliss at HROADS.NET (marliss at HROADS.NET) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:15:46 -0400 Subject: The Guineamen of Gloucester VA Message-ID: This is a plea from a Linguistics Grad at Old Dominion University. Has there been any ethnolinguistic study completed of the Guineamen in Gloucester, Virginia? If you have any information or can point to someone who does, please let me know ASAP. Thanks! Marliss