From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  1 01:32:06 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:32:06 EST
Subject: "Virtuous circle"
Message-ID: <SUN.31.OCT.1999.203206.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Last Thursday, Fed Chief Alan Greenspan said that the United States economy is experiencing a "virtuous circle" of new investment, rising productivity, and rising profits.
   Check Nexis in a another week to see if it catches.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  1 01:42:43 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:42:43 EST
Subject: Mexican music
Message-ID: <SUN.31.OCT.1999.204243.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Greetings once again from Morelia, Mexico.  Tomorrow is the big Day of the Dead.  Too bad you can't buy a Cherry Garcia around here.
    Latin music is more than Ricky Martin.  This is from THE NEWS, 28 October 1999, pg. 2, col. 2, an interview with Tino Contreras, the grand old man of Meican jazz:

_Are you talking about the high-pitched promotion of the so-called _grupero_ music?_ (Note: Highly popular Grupero music is a mix of northern Mexican ranchero, Tex-Mex jive and a taint of rock.)
   All the television stations are now into the _grupero_ music, and to tell the truth, and you know, it is a type of music that does not bring anything extra to popular music.

_Maybe it's a little advance for _ranchero_ music?
   It's very easy to learn to play a dominant tune on an instrument like a guitar and put on a ten-gallon hat, Texas boots, and there you are.

_But they are selling a lot._
     They are selling like crazy.  But now that we are into this, recently I found out that the _gruperos_ are giving away late-model cars.  This sheer payola, or what I call musical drug trafficking.  Can you imagine a jazz player giving out presents like fancy cars or vans?  We'd be broke for life.

(Contreras calls his music "bolero-jazz."  Does Barnhart have _ranchero_ and _grupero_?--ed.)


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Mon Nov  1 02:04:01 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:04:01 -0500
Subject: Folk etymology (Was Re: Swiss enchiladas)
Message-ID: <SUN.31.OCT.1999.210401.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:02 PM 10/30/99, Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
>I don't know who "they" are, but a former student of mine from die Schweiz
>told me the term 'Schwyzertueuetsch' is commonly used (and note his
>spelling, with 'y' and a doubled umlauted vowel, presumably to signal
>lengthening ['ue'  substitutes for my lack of the umlaut diacritic--how do
>you get that, Greg?]).  Trudgill, in his _Sociolinguistics_ (1995 ed., p.
>101) uses this spelling also, but he does note that his example is "based
>on Zurich speech."  My student taperecorded T's example for me, with
>wonderful intonation and very prominent vowel lengthening; I play it every
>year for my Sociolx class.
>

"They" include a 70-year-old who has lived in Z. his entire life, and has
published extensively on language and literature. But that doesn't mean he's
right. He's probably just trying to emphasize to a gringo like me that the
*range* of "Swiss Deutsch" and the precise parameters of "Z. Deutsch" are
not identical. I notice that your informant seems to spell and pronounce the
term for "Swiss Deutsch" differently from my informant. That may well say
something about the lack of uniformity in "Swiss Deutsch," which seems to
vary from speaker to speaker even in regard to the term itself. Wny, it
makes as much sense to say "Swiss Deutsch" (singular) as it does to say
"American English" (singular)! Add your own emoticon here....

Why should I know or care about Swiss dialect(s)? Because Z dialect shows up
in Joyce's _Finnegans Wake_. He stayed in Z several times from 1904 (age 22)
through 1941 (he died there in that year). It's the only version of "Swiss
Duetsch" he'd have known in any depth.

I can't make diacriticals with my email software, but I knew I had the
German terms in a word-processed document. I just went and cut and pasted
the wording into the email I was writing. If I need a diacritical in an
email, I type the character in WordPerfect or some word-proc system, and
then cut and paste it into the email. I don't do it unless I think I have
to, because I know some email systems and email lists cannot handle
non-ASCII stuff and therefore will turn the character into a bit of
"two-character garbage." But I know that ADS-L accepts and transmits the
common European diacriticals. So I can do it here.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET  Mon Nov  1 04:09:19 1999
From: bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET (Bernard W. Kane)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:09:19 -0500
Subject: Anticipating new coinage
Message-ID: <SUN.31.OCT.1999.230919.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Nantucket Triangle?
Waiting for the networks to pick up on this.
(Pierre Salinger, where are you when we need you?)

Bernie Kane
lurker
mailto:bkane at tigger.jvnc.net


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Mon Nov  1 10:50:30 1999
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:50:30 +0000
Subject: Sweaters
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.105030.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I would call it a sweater, "sweatshirt" wouldn't even occur to me.
>
> Many English folk would call it a jumper, some might term it a gansey,
guernsey,
> or jersey, though.
>

I find it interesting that all of the names are islands in the Channel.

Anyway, thank you everybody for answering my question.  Now I know how to
count my informants "sweatshirt" responses.

Cheers,
Aaron

________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Nov  1 15:34:52 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:34:52 -0800
Subject: Sweaters
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.073452.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Look like sweaters to me!

JIM

--- "Aaron E. Drews" <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I've enclosed a picture of an item of clothing.
> What I'm wondering is:
> would anybody call this item of clothing a
> sweatshirt?  If you don't call it
> a sweatshirt, do you think younger people do, or
> your colleagues and peers?
>
> The reason I ask is because I'm noticing quite a few
> people calling this a
> sweatshirt in my data, where I would expect either
> sweater or jumper.  What
> I want to know is if "sweatshirt" is a legitimate
> variant in any variety of
> American English, or if my subjects are finding a
> way of avoiding having to
> say either sweater or jumper, or if my subjects just
> plain can't tell the
> difference from this picture.
>
> Thanks for any help!
>
> Aaron
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
> Aaron E. Drews                               The
> University of Edinburgh
> http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of
> English Language and
> aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical &
> Applied Linguistics
>
>  "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT
> PROOF"
>   --Death
>
>

> ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=jumper.JPG;
x-mac-creator=474B4F4E; x-mac-type=4A504547



=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Mon Nov  1 15:38:42 1999
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:38:42 -0500
Subject: "Virtuous circle"
In-Reply-To: <0.25aff474.254e4796@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.103842.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Virtuous circle" caught quite a while ago. Lexis-Nexis reports over 600
citations in 1999 alone. The earliest Lexis-Nexis citation is from The
New York Times' Information Bank Abstracts, which offers the following
abstract from August 27, 1972:

     E L Dale Jr article revg present wage-price controls program
     and discussing outlook for Phase 3; recalls 'virtuous circle'
     of wage-price stability in early '60s and subsequent 'vicious
     circle' of wage-price spiral which led to Nixon Adm's imposition
     of controls;

There are 23 citations from the 1970s, 16 of which are from The
Economist, so I'll venture that they did the most to popularize the
phrase. "Virtuous circle" was a Word Spy back on September 15, 1997.

Paul
Books: http://www.mcfedries.com/books/
Word Spy: http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/

>    Last Thursday, Fed Chief Alan Greenspan said that the
> United States economy is experiencing a "virtuous circle" of
> new investment, rising productivity, and rising profits.
>    Check Nexis in a another week to see if it catches.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov  1 16:16:21 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:16:21 -0500
Subject: "Virtuous circle"
In-Reply-To: <005701bf247f$2d2f8a00$8321d0d8@paul.mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.111621.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Paul McFedries wrote:

> "Virtuous circle" caught quite a while ago. Lexis-Nexis reports over 600
> citations in 1999 alone. The earliest Lexis-Nexis citation is from The
> New York Times' Information Bank Abstracts, which offers the following
> abstract from August 27, 1972:

For a linguistically oriented list, there's not a whole lot of checking of
the OED that goes on here.  The OED has "virtuous circle" from 1953.  I
find it even earlier through JSTOR:

1933 _Mind_ 42: 177  Our definition is thus a circle; not however a
vicious but rather a virtuous circle.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From benaaron at CC.HELSINKI.FI  Mon Nov  1 17:05:04 1999
From: benaaron at CC.HELSINKI.FI (Diana Ben-Aaron)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:05:04 +0200
Subject: Encarta dictionary reviews
In-Reply-To: <199911010502.HAA28049@post.it.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.190504.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Slate conversation between Jesse and Dennis mentioned that the reviews
of the Microsoft Encarta dictionary had been well-informed, because the
reporters spoke to lexicographers.  I paraphrase and distort, but that
was the general theme.

If anyone has the citations (= dates) for those reviews at hand and
could e-mail them to me, I would appreciate it.  I have access to American
magazines and newspapers, but not to indexes like Infotrac or Nexis, and
the only review I could find in an afternoon of browsing was the New York
Times for Thursday, Sept. 16 (by Elin Schoen Brockman).  Couldn't make
Altavista spit out any pointers either.

thanks

Diana ben-Aaron
University of Helsinki


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Nov  1 17:54:30 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:54:30 -0800
Subject: Folk etymology (Was Re: Swiss enchiladas)
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.095430.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote:
>
> At 04:02 PM 10/30/99, Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
> >I don't know who "they" are, but a former student of mine from die Schweiz
> >told me the term 'Schwyzertueuetsch' is commonly used (and note his
> >spelling, with 'y' and a doubled umlauted vowel, presumably to signal
> >lengthening ['ue'  substitutes for my lack of the umlaut diacritic--how do
> >you get that, Greg?]).  Trudgill, in his _Sociolinguistics_ (1995 ed., p.
> >101) uses this spelling also, but he does note that his example is "based
> >on Zurich speech."  My student taperecorded T's example for me, with
> >wonderful intonation and very prominent vowel lengthening; I play it every
> >year for my Sociolx class.
> >
>

My Swiss friend, who admittedly is not a linguist, is from Bern, and her husband
is from Luzern, and they definitely have different dialects.  Then again, so do
the Germans.  The question is, once you depart from the Hochdeutsch writing,
does the writing become dialect specific?

As for the four languages of Switzerland - well, I can ask her for the
"official" written form of that, if anyone is interested.

I notice that Peter Richardson is conspicuously silent... ;-}

Andrea


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Mon Nov  1 18:07:23 1999
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:07:23 -0500
Subject: catchphrases not in Whiting, part 4
In-Reply-To: <199910252008.QAA15369@is2.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.130723.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More proverbs or catchphrases from my notes, taking us through the
letter O.  As it happens, just as vol. 1 of RHHDAS was noticably
fatter than vol. 2, so my notes for A-G are more extensive than H-O
or P-Z.  Would that Random House would show us vol. P-Z of RHHDAS, so
we could see its thickness.  Anyway, I will finish this up with
another posting or two.

GAT

1828:   The officers having pursued them, arrived just in time to be
too late, for the parties had a very few minutes previous left to
embark on board the steam boat for Philadelphia. . . .
        New-York Evening Post, April 10, 1828, p. 2, col. 5, from J Commerce

1834:   It was a truly ludicrous scene to behold all these gentry,
"who were just in time to be too late," with bundles, carpet-bags,
and bandboxes, remaining stationary on shore, faintly hoping that the
captain, out of pity, might stop the machinery and take them on
board.
        Carl David Arfwedson, The United States and Canada in 1832,
1833, and 1834, London: Richard Bentley, 1834, repr. by N. Y. &
London: Johnson Reprint Co., 1969, ed. by Marvin Fisher, vol. 1, p.
48

        This is in Ulysses: one of the barflies uses it in the Cyclops
chapter.  Greg Downing will have the exact quotation.

Not in RHHDAS; Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting; nor Whiting, MPPS;
OED: 1816 (late, A. 2. a)

****

1840:   Since then it has been "My dear and my darling, my duck
and my chicken," and sometimes they are kissing and sometimes they
are kicking. . . .
        New York Daily Express, February 12, 1840, p. 2, col. 6

Not in RHHDAS; Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting; not Whiting, MPPS

****


1836:   [William Robinson, sentenced to ten years:] That's no
time at all, I can live it out like a knife.
        The Herald, August 15, 1836, p. 2, col. 4

Not in RHHDAS, under "knife" or "live"; nor Taylor & Whiting;
Whiting, MPPS has several phrases associating knives with quickness,
but not this.

****

1822:   He ought to have a "leather medal" for his design.
        XYZ.  A Knickerbocker Tour of New York State, 1822.  Louis
Leonard Tucker, ed.  Albany: Univ. of the State of New York, The
State Education Dept., New York State Library, 1968, p. 39

1826:   [a man executes his horse, ceremoniously].  For this
gallant act of bravery, it is recommended that the ladies and
gentlemen of the place should present him with a leather medal.
        The Long-Island Star, February 9, 1826, p. 2, col. 5

1843:   Reward of Merit. [for "some recent specimens of American
Sagacity and contrivance" during an election.]  1.  A Leather Medal
each — very thick and solid. . . . [to some voters].  A pair of horn
goggles — regular dead-eyes -- [to other voters].
        New-York Daily Tribune, November 9, 1843, p. 2, col. 3

There are variants of this phrase.  I remember having seen "putty
medal" but can't document it.

RHHDAS: 1831, citing OED; not in Whiting, EAPPP; nor Taylor &
Whiting; DAE: 1837; OED: 1831

****

1866:   These courtesies were like an invitation from a Captain
to a Midshipman, "no compulsion, only you must."
        Thomas J. Dimsdale, The Vigilantes of Montana. . . .  Virginia

Not in Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting; nor Whiting, MPPS; OED: 1882
(must, verb, 8.b)

****

1933:   Just make a noise like a fish but keep your eyes open.
        Cornelius W. Willemse, A Cop Remembers, N. Y.: E. P. Dutton, 1933, p. 84

RHHDAS: has 5 variations on "make a noise like ---", 1902-1959, as
subhead under "noise", but all but the 1908 cite has the sense of "go
away"; none mean keep still; not in Taylor & Whiting nor Whiting,
MPPS.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Nov  1 18:03:40 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:03:40 -0800
Subject: Swiss cheese
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.100340.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:
>
> >... except for the imported Swiss cheese, which as we know is not
> >  really called Swiss cheese but Emmenthaler.
>
> What about Gruyere??
>

The point being that what we generally term "Swiss cheese" in the States (the
semi-soft cheese with the holes in it) is Emmenthaler.

Certainly Gruyere is Swiss, but if you said to someone at a deli in the States,
"I want a ham and Swiss on rye with spicy mustard" they're likely not going to
come back with, "Emmenthaler, Gruyere, or Raclette?"

Andrea


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Nov  1 18:50:13 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:50:13 -0800
Subject: Sanborns Mexican food; Mexican drinks
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.105013.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> SOUTH AMERICAN COFFEE--Licor de Platano, Kahlua.

Is that a liquor made from plantains?

>
>   Some drinks:
>
> BLODDY BULL--?

I remembered this is made with beef bouillon (my mom used to drink it), so I
looked up the recipe on the Web:

Ingredients:
               1.0 Wedge  Lemon
               1.0 slice  Lime
               1.0 oz.  Vodka
               0.5 glass  Tomato Juice
               0.5 glass  Beef Bouillon
 Directions:
               Pour vodka, tomato juice, and beef bouillon
               over ice in a highball glass and stir. Add the
               slice of lime and the wedge of lemon and
               serve.

Andrea


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Nov  1 19:44:10 1999
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:44:10 -0800
Subject: Folk etymology (Was Re: Swiss enchiladas)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991030155818.00b095a0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.114410.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Beverly. It's hard for a speaker of Swiss German to sit here and
watch all this speculation flying by on screen. 'Schwyzertueuetsch' is as
close as my keyboard will allow me to get, too. Declaring that Swiss
German doesn't exist would be big news to the 4 million + native speakers
of the stuff. Yes, one does differentiate between Zueritueuetsch and
Churer Tueuetsch just as one identifies speakers right away not only by
their home canton, but their home town as well. When I called the Swiss
Consulate and asked about some films, I received as an answer the
question: "Bad Ragaz?" The person was simply identifying me by my version
of her native language; unfortunately, she was about 15 miles too far
north.

And yes, there are a few different kinds of cheese made over there. Start
by identifying them by each alp that produces them. (All this reminds me
that we're heading into fondue season, so "En Guete" to all...)

Peter Richardson

On Sat, 30 Oct 1999, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> I don't know who "they" are, but a former student of mine from die Schweiz
> told me the term 'Schwyzertueuetsch' is commonly used (and note his
> spelling, with 'y' and a doubled umlauted vowel, presumably to signal
> lengthening ['ue'  substitutes for my lack of the umlaut diacritic--how do


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  1 21:10:19 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:10:19 EST
Subject: People Chow; "I see dead people"
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.161019.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PEOPLE CHOW

    An About.com message on Frankenstein Foods used "People Chow."  I don't know how frequently this connection is used.

--------------------------------------------------------
I SEE DEAD PEOPLE

   Sorry for not using the OED here in Mexico on "virtuous circle."  (Even at home, it takes me at least an hour to go back and forth to NYU.)
   The movie SIXTH SENSE was popular in the States last summer and is also popular down here.  The movie's catchphrase is "I see dead people."  It's not useful enough to catch on much--except for days like today.
   Today is the Day of the Dead, and I'm heading out to the cemetery!


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Nov  1 21:30:03 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:30:03 -0800
Subject: catchphrases not in Whiting, part 4
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.133003.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Granted these examples are out of context, but from
them I deduce that a "leather medal" is a whipping or
strapping.  What would a "putty medal" be?

JIM
---------------------------------------------------
1822:   He ought to have a "leather medal" for his
design.
        XYZ.  A Knickerbocker Tour of New York State,
1822.  Louis
Leonard Tucker, ed.  Albany: Univ. of the State of New
York, The
State Education Dept., New York State Library, 1968,
p. 39

1826:   [a man executes his horse, ceremoniously].
For this
gallant act of bravery, it is recommended that the
ladies and
gentlemen of the place should present him with a
leather medal.
        The Long-Island Star, February 9, 1826, p. 2,
col. 5

1843:   Reward of Merit. [for "some recent specimens
of American
Sagacity and contrivance" during an election.]  1.  A
Leather Medal
each � very thick and solid. . . . [to some voters].
A pair of horn
goggles � regular dead-eyes -- [to other voters].
        New-York Daily Tribune, November 9, 1843, p.
2, col. 3

There are variants of this phrase.  I remember having
seen "putty
medal" but can't document it.

RHHDAS: 1831, citing OED; not in Whiting, EAPPP; nor
Taylor &
Whiting; DAE: 1837; OED: 1831

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Nov  1 21:42:44 1999
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:42:44 -0800
Subject: Swiss German
In-Reply-To: <381DD3D6.B2930E6D@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.134244.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I notice that Peter Richardson is conspicuously silent... ;-}

Well, now that Andrea has smoked me out, I'll add yet another tidbit to
the discussion. Outside of the hallowed halls of the Sprachatlas der
deutschen Schweiz, there isn't an agreed upon system for transcribing SwG,
although most of the ads circulated in nationally-read newspapers use one
version or another of Zurich dialect, the 500-lb. gorilla in everyone's
Stuebli. And no wonder, for Zurich is the cultural/economic capital of the
SwG-speaking part (i.e. about 70%) of the country and the lingua franca of
the broadcast media. But local versions of SwG are immediately apparent in
the names of establishments that view themselves as trendy (e.g. clothing
stores, fast food places). Foreign words are treated in different ways
according to region, generation, and audience, a pretty common phenomenon
in other places as well. A place that sells denim garments might be a
Jeans-Shop in one town and a Tschiins-Schop in another--with identical
pronunciations, of course.

What has not yet been mentioned is Schweizer Hochdeutsch, a spoken variant
of what was earlier referred to as Schriftdeutsch or Standarddeutsch, the
school standard of all three German-speaking countries. Those used to
non-Swiss pronunciation of German might think that Swiss speakers of the
standard are indeed speaking SwG, because prosodic features of the
"language of heart and home" are almost without exception transplanted to
the standard. When I asked a Swiss friend why this might be so, he opined
that the German Swiss want very much to identify themselves as Swiss and
not be mistaken for either Germans or Austrians. So it's not, as many
think, that "they can't do it,"  but rather that "they don't want to do
it."

For a super-regional dictionary of SwG, take a look at the Schweizerisches
Idiotikon. Otherwise there are smaller dictionaries for most of the
cities, from Bern to Davos--and even translations of classics such as The
Iliad into Baeaerndueuetsch (sorry for the missing diereses, as I said
before).

Peter


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Mon Nov  1 22:02:51 1999
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:02:51 -0500
Subject: "Virtuous circle"
In-Reply-To: <005701bf247f$2d2f8a00$8321d0d8@paul.mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.170251.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not to be nitpicky, but I just checked the text of Greenspan's speech,
and he actually used the term "virtuous cycle":

     To be sure, there is also a virtuous cycle at play here.
     A whole new set of profitable investments raises
     productivity, which for a time raises profits -- spurring
     further investment and consumption.

This is not quite as popular as "virtuous circle," with only 434 L-N
citations for 1999. Note, too (insert nod to Fred Shapiro here) that the
OED doesn't have virtuous cycle (or even vicious cycle, for that matter;
it does have vicious circle and vicious spiral).

The earliest L-N citation is from Business Week, February 12, 1979:

     They call it the "virtuous cycle," one in which a series
     of sound economic policies sets off a chain of events in
     which improved economic performance produces sound
     currencies. This in turn helps to improve economic
     performance further.

Paul
Books: http://www.mcfedries.com/books/
Word Spy: http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/


From bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU  Mon Nov  1 22:07:32 1999
From: bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU (BRITTANY M. BARBER)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:07:32 CST
Subject: a question
In-Reply-To: <000801bf1cff$6e7a24c0$79b0da18@curriculumbuilders.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.160732.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think kike is from Germany.  There is a good book on southern
terminology and slang called _Whistlin' Dixie_.


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Mon Nov  1 22:58:39 1999
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:58:39 -0500
Subject: catchphrases not in Whiting, part 4
In-Reply-To: <19991101213003.29190.rocketmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.175839.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James Smith observed:
"Granted these examples are out of context, but from
them I deduce that a "leather medal" is a whipping or
strapping.  What would a "putty medal" be?"

Actually, this interpretation is so obvious that it hadn't ever
occurred to me.  I had been supposing a leather medal was a medal
made of leather, as opposed to gold or silver.  A putty medal would
be even less of a distinction than a leather one.  But "leather
medal" as "dose of strapponia" (a phrase from another old newspaper)
would certainly be applicable to the 1826 passage, since the
editorialist was rather outraged.  "A medal made of a substance of
little value" would be more appropriate for 1822 and 1843, perhaps,
since those writers were merely deploring incompetence or stupidity.

Thanks for the thought.

GAT


---------------------------------------------------
1822:   He ought to have a "leather medal" for his
design.
        XYZ.  A Knickerbocker Tour of New York State,
1822.  Louis Leonard Tucker, ed.  Albany: Univ. of the State of New
York, The State Education Dept., New York State Library, 1968,
p. 39

1826:   [a man executes his horse, ceremoniously].
For this gallant act of bravery, it is recommended that the
ladies and gentlemen of the place should present him with a
leather medal.
        The Long-Island Star, February 9, 1826, p. 2,
col. 5

1843:   Reward of Merit. [for "some recent specimens
of American Sagacity and contrivance" during an election.]  1.  A
Leather Medal each — very thick and solid. . . . [to some voters].
A pair of horn goggles — regular dead-eyes -- [to other voters].
        New-York Daily Tribune, November 9, 1843, p. 2, col. 3

There are variants of this phrase.  I remember having
seen "putty medal" but can't document it.

RHHDAS: 1831, citing OED; not in Whiting, EAPPP; nor
Taylor & Whiting; DAE: 1837; OED: 1831

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov  1 17:14:27 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:14:27 -0500
Subject: 'Schwyzertueuetsch'  (was   Re: Folk etymology) (Was Re:
 Swiss enchiladas)
In-Reply-To: <199910311631.LAA35878@pilot023.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.121427.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ditto for Bosnia, whose citizens now speak Bosniak (sp?).

At 11:36 AM 10/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Is German a language (or just a collection of a bunch of High and Low
>German dialects)? When dialects/languages are related, isn't this always a
>sociopolitical question (with "right" answers depending on who you're
>talking to)? Notice how quickly Serbo-Croatian became Serbian and Croatian
>(without a blink at linguistic facts).
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
>
>
> >A possibly more definitive solution as to whether Schwyzertueuetsch is a
> >language or just the overall title for a group of very high German dialects
> >might be to ascertain what the four official languages are of the Swiss
> >Confederation: French, Italian, Roumasch (in its various spellings (which
> >one is official?), and ?  Scott Catledge
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
> >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Sent: Saturday, October 30, 1999 2:02 PM
> >Subject: Re: Folk etymology (Was Re: Swiss enchiladas)
> >
> >
> >I don't know who "they" are, but a former student of mine from die Schweiz
> >told me the term 'Schwyzertueuetsch' is commonly used (and note his
> >spelling, with 'y' and a doubled umlauted vowel, presumably to signal
> >lengthening ['ue'  substitutes for my lack of the umlaut diacritic--how do
> >you get that, Greg?]).  Trudgill, in his _Sociolinguistics_ (1995 ed., p.
> >101) uses this spelling also, but he does note that his example is "based
> >on Zurich speech."  My student taperecorded T's example for me, with
> >wonderful intonation and very prominent vowel lengthening; I play it every
> >year for my Sociolx class.
> >
> >>Actually, to be more accurate, since you seem to be interested, they tell
> >me
> >>there is not even such a thing as Schwizertütsch. There are only local
> >>dialects each of which is a bit different, e.g., Züritütsch (Zürich
> >>Deutsch). So they say....
> >>
> >>Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu
>
>Dennis R. Preston
>Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
>preston at pilot.msu.edu
>Office: (517)353-0740
>Fax: (517)432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  1 23:51:31 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:51:31 EST
Subject: December error; Tequila
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.185131.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I once again can�t read a single e-mail.  Oh well.

--------------------------------------------------------
DECEMBER ERROR

   Some Mexicans are walking around today with masks of the former president, Carlos Salinas.  In Mexico, the bums are thrown out of office--they leave the country with ill-gotten loot and the peso is devalued.  In 1995, 1.7 million people lost their jobs.
   Yesterday, it was announced that Salinas has written his memoirs.  (In the U.S., criminals have to share the proceeds of these things.)  This is from THE NEWS, 1 November 1999, pg. 4, col. 1:

   One of the main topics to be addressed in the book is the so called "December error," a 1995 decision of the federal government that caused the peso devaluation, considered the decade's worst financial crisis in recent memory.

   ("The decade's worst financial crisis in recent memory?"  What's that mean?--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
TEQUILA

   I'll hit "tequila" again, but this excellent article on the tequila boom is from THE NEWS, 28 October 1999, pg. 37, cols. 1-3:

_Tequila: Biting The Worm Tha Feeds You_
   First of all, movie fans will be dismayed to learn that genuine tequila is never, ever bottled with a worm inside.  The spirit that does have a worm is mezcal, a totally different proposition.
   How did Mexico's national drink ever get to be so popular, even without the benefit of a global marketing campaign such as the one Columbia launched for its coffee?  Those with long memories will recall that for many decades, tequila--like Corona or Victoria beer--was strictly for the low-income masses.  Today, it's gone beyond mainstream, and in some countries--Mexico included--is regarded as more upscale than single-mal Scotch or cognac.
   The difference is marketing and generic positioning, as well as Mexico's long and strenuous effort to get tequila certified wordlwide as unique in origin to this country alone, a feat that was finally accomplished last year.  To mark the certification, the World Trad Organization witnessed the smashing of thousands of bottles of fake tequila from Russia, Spain and Japan, among others, on Brussels' main square.  (See my brief discussion on South African wines and "port."--ed.)
   The blue agave tequilana plant, from which genuine tequila is made, only grows in the state of Jalisco.  The town of Tequila, about 80 kilometers from Guadalajara, is to the spirit wha the Champagne region is to bubbles, or what Bordeaux's cabernet sauvignon grapes are to red wine. (...)
   The plant takes three full yars to mature, and after the juice is extracted from the core "pineapple" (thus called because of its shape), the distilling and aging process takes anywhere from two to eight years for the amber-colored "reposados." (...)
   The last I heard, the Cancun Ritz-Carlton hotel's tequila lounge was still the country's leader, with more than 200 tequila brands and daily seminars and tastings.

(I'll be there later in the week for extensive research--ed.)


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Tue Nov  2 01:05:21 1999
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:05:21 -0800
Subject: Swiss cheese
In-Reply-To: <381DD5FC.7F597A74@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.170521.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>Certainly Gruyere is Swiss, but if you said to someone at a deli in the
>States,
>"I want a ham and Swiss on rye with spicy mustard" they're likely not going to
>come back with, "Emmenthaler, Gruyere, or Raclette?"

Actually, that's why I mentioned it.  Excluding the Raclette (and I bought
a little Raclette maker while in Switzerland), when I've said something
like "real Swiss cheese" or "Swiss Swiss cheese" to people in a deli, I've
often been asked whether I wanted Emmenthaler or Gruyere.

Rima


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Tue Nov  2 01:31:20 1999
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:31:20 -0500
Subject: catchphrases not in Whiting, part 4
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.203120.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Putty Medal mentioned at (no definition given):
http://www.mgcars.org.uk/news/news510.html

The site has a 13 July 1999 date.

George S. Cole    gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  2 01:53:24 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:53:24 -0500
Subject: catchphrases not in Whiting, part 4
In-Reply-To: <267BA517A79@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.205324.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, GEORGE THOMPSON wrote:

> or P-Z.  Would that Random House would show us vol. P-Z of RHHDAS, so
> we could see its thickness.  Anyway, I will finish this up with

With trepidation, I ask the Big Question: with Jesse leaving Random House,
will there be a third volume of the RHHDAS?

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Tue Nov  2 02:04:59 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:04:59 -0500
Subject: catchphrases not in Whiting, part 4
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911012051170.28580-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.210459.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Fred Shapiro wrote:

>With trepidation, I ask the Big Question: with Jesse leaving Random House,
>will there be a third volume of the RHHDAS?

I know that Jon Lighter has about completed his editorial work on it.

Bethany


From lovebug132 at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  2 02:11:22 1999
From: lovebug132 at HOTMAIL.COM (Love Hartman)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:11:22 PST
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.181122.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am curious about the different words used when asking for a specific
screwdriver. I heard that originally a person would either ask for a
phillips or a standard or a flat. I heard someone refer to the two different
types of screwdrivers as a "plus or minus".  How did the plus and minus get
started?
L.H.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU  Tue Nov  2 02:23:34 1999
From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:23:34 -0500
Subject: Screwdrivers
In-Reply-To: <19991102021122.50253.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.212334.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Just randomly, I would guess that it stems from what the tips look
like.  A Phillips screwdriver has a tip that looks a lot like a +, and a
standard screwdriver has a tip that looks like a -.

    Johanna

Excerpts from mail: 1-Nov-99 Screwdrivers by Love Hartman at HOTMAIL.COM
> I am curious about the different words used when asking for a specific
> screwdriver. I heard that originally a person would either ask for a
> phillips or a standard or a flat. I heard someone refer to the two different
> types of screwdrivers as a "plus or minus".  How did the plus and minus get
> started?


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Tue Nov  2 02:57:51 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:57:51 -0700
Subject: Screwdrivers
In-Reply-To: <19991102021122.50253.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.195751.0700.>

My father, a carpenter, always called the flat screwdriver a "slotted"
screwdriver.

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Love Hartman
Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 7:11 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Screwdrivers


I am curious about the different words used when asking for a specific
screwdriver. I heard that originally a person would either ask for a
phillips or a standard or a flat. I heard someone refer to the two different
types of screwdrivers as a "plus or minus".  How did the plus and minus get
started?
L.H.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Nov  2 03:52:19 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:52:19 -0800
Subject: Screwdrivers
In-Reply-To: <000001bf24de$0e41dbc0$d41558c0@pavilion>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.195219.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've heard "standard", "straight" and "slotted" which is odd because the
slot is in the screw, one of those transferred epithets, I guess. I've
never heard "plus" and "minus" screwdrivers. Of course, where I worked
there wasn't a simple screwdriver but always an "[expletive] screwdriver."

allen
(who worked as a glazier and weather-stripper for at least 15 years,
although in retrospect it seems much shorter)
maberry at u.washington.edu



On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Amy Speed wrote:

> My father, a carpenter, always called the flat screwdriver a "slotted"
> screwdriver.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Love Hartman
> Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 7:11 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Screwdrivers
>
>
> I am curious about the different words used when asking for a specific
> screwdriver. I heard that originally a person would either ask for a
> phillips or a standard or a flat. I heard someone refer to the two
  different
> types of screwdrivers as a "plus or minus".  How did the plus and minus get
> started?
> L.H.
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  2 04:48:44 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 23:48:44 EST
Subject: "Virtuous circle"
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.234844.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't intend to nitpick, either, but this is not the first time I've
encountered the verb, "nitpick," used as adjective, as in "nitpicky." Is this
usage geographically determined, or has it been validated via some legitimate
source?  The first time I heard a speaker use it (around 1989), another
listener "corrected" her (This interplay occurred several times.)  What's the
word on this issue?
                    PAT


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Nov  2 05:01:53 1999
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse T Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 00:01:53 -0500
Subject: catchphrases not in Whiting, part 4
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911012051170.28580-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
 from "Fred Shapiro" at Nov 1, 99 08:53:24 pm
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.000153.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> > or P-Z.  Would that Random House would show us vol. P-Z of RHHDAS, so
> > we could see its thickness.  Anyway, I will finish this up with
>
> With trepidation, I ask the Big Question: with Jesse leaving Random House,
> will there be a third volume of the RHHDAS?

I think the answer to this is still uncertain. But it is absolutely
true that everyone involved, including Jon, Random House, and
certainly me, very much want to see the publication of the
remainder of HDAS. There are a lot of issues that need to be
sorted out, but we all hope that this can be done.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester at panix.com>


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Tue Nov  2 13:04:23 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 06:04:23 -0700
Subject: "Virtuous circle"
In-Reply-To: <0.2190c4e8.254fc72c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.060423.0700.>

I have always used the word nitpicky.

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of P2052 at AOL.COM
Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 9:49 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: "Virtuous circle"


I don't intend to nitpick, either, but this is not the first time I've
encountered the verb, "nitpick," used as adjective, as in "nitpicky." Is
this
usage geographically determined, or has it been validated via some
legitimate
source?  The first time I heard a speaker use it (around 1989), another
listener "corrected" her (This interplay occurred several times.)  What's
the
word on this issue?
                    PAT


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Nov  2 13:49:12 1999
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:49:12 -0500
Subject: "Nitpicky" (was RE: "Virtuous circle")
In-Reply-To: <0.2190c4e8.254fc72c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.084912.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would classify "nitpicky" as perfectly acceptable usage. As my
"legitimate source" I offer Lexis-Nexis, which reports nearly 1,000
citations. However, the earliest occurs in a Washington Post story from
April 21, 1980, so it must be fairly new. That explains why "older"
dictionaries (OED, Webster's Third New International) don't have it. I
did find it in the recently-published Canadian Oxford Dictionary, thus
solidifying its claim as my favorite lexicon. Can anyone find nitpicky
in any other sources (Encarta, perhaps)?

Paul
http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/

> I don't intend to nitpick, either, but this is not the first time
> I've encountered the verb, "nitpick," used as adjective, as in
> "nitpicky." Is this usage geographically determined, or has it been
> validated via some legitimate source?  The first time I heard a
> speaker use it (around 1989), another listener "corrected" her
> (This interplay occurred several times.)  What's the word on this
> issue?
>                     PAT


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  2 14:02:15 1999
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:02:15 -0500
Subject: Swiss cheese
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.090215.0500.>

Not to be picky, but raclettes are made with a combination of cheeses,
one of which is something like Fontina and the other is "swiss" cheese,
plus kirsch of course.  (Memory fails me --not a recipe I make often)
-- db
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  2 14:04:03 1999
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:04:03 -0500
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.090403.0500.>

The + screwdriver is called a phillips screwdriver, the - is a generic
screwdriver with no other designation.

-- db
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Nov  2 12:06:20 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:06:20 -0400
Subject: "Nitpicky" (was RE: "Virtuous circle")
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.080620.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nitpicky (or nit-picky) brings up an interesting subject.  I agree that
this term should be included in dictionaries that attempt to establish
a record of English (i.e. big dictionaries and their supplements
[nitpicky is in W3 Addenda Sect.).  It is perhaps a new term, however
its appearance back to 1980 in Nexis is not particularly definitive.
It was in 1980, after all that Nexis began to aggressively expand.  My
suspicion is that nitpicky is rather older, perhaps as old as nitpicker
and nitpick.

In addition, one could make a case that its entry in college
dictionaries is really unnecessary, as in  MW10th and Encarta.  It is
the product of a fairly straightforward suffix, -y, which can be
attached to form a fairly transparent derivative rather in the same way
that -ness and -ish do so freely on almost any word.  Some words formed
in this way are quite legitimately main entries in college
dictionaries.  But those which are relegated to run-on status do little
more than say this term has been found.  Run-on status is often just a
device to increase the entry count of a dictionary.

Regards,
David K. Barnhart
barnhart at highlands.com


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov  2 16:08:02 1999
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:08:02 -0800
Subject: Swiss cheese
In-Reply-To: <381EEEE7.93ED9CF4@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.080802.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Woops. Not to be picky, but that's sounding a lot like fondue, minus
another couple of cheeses. We use Gruyere, Appenzeller, Emmenthaler, and
Raclette as the "binder." You can use Fontina as a binder as well, but
Raclette does a better job. .. Raclette is made with...well, Raclette. The
half-round of cheese is put right up to the heat, and when the melted
layer is just about to ooze off the chunk, you scrape it off with a knife
onto the traditional potato, tomato, and sweet pickle.

Peter R.

On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, David Bergdahl wrote:

> Not to be picky, but raclettes are made with a combination of cheeses,
> one of which is something like Fontina and the other is "swiss" cheese,
> plus kirsch of course.  (Memory fails me --not a recipe I make often)
> -- db
> ____________________________________________________________________
> David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
> tel:  (740) 593-2783
> 366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
> (740) 593-2818
>


From dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP  Tue Nov  2 16:17:28 1999
From: dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP (Daniel Long)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 01:17:28 +0900
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.011728.0900.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Japanese, the Phillips is called a "plus" and the regular screwdriver a
"minus".  I have never heard these in the English world.   However, my
experience with words like this that are regarded to be "wasei eigo" or "made in
Japan English terms" is that if you search hard enough you often find that at
SOME time SOME where in the English speaking world they were used.   So, I
wouldn't be too surprised if these terms were used at some point in some part of
the English world.   If not, then maybe they are backborrowings from Japanese.

Danny Long

P.S. Yeah, I've signed back on.  Hey y'all!  Miss me Barry?  Dang, I forgot he
cain't read his mail.

Love Hartman wrote:

> I am curious about the different words used when asking for a specific
> screwdriver. I heard that originally a person would either ask for a
> phillips or a standard or a flat. I heard someone refer to the two different
> types of screwdrivers as a "plus or minus".  How did the plus and minus get
> started?

  --
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-426-77-2184
Japanese Language and Literature Dept.    fax  +81-426-77-2140
Tokyo Metropolitan University
1-1 Minami Osawa, Hachioji-shi, Tokyo  192-0397 Japan
mailto:dlong at bcomp.metro-u.ac.jp
http://nihongo.human.metro-u.ac.jp/long/


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Tue Nov  2 16:39:29 1999
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:39:29 -0700
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.093929.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From: A. Maberry <maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU>


: I've heard "standard", "straight" and "slotted" which is odd because
: the slot is in the screw, one of those transferred epithets, I guess.
: I've never heard "plus" and "minus" screwdrivers. Of course, where I
: worked there wasn't a simple screwdriver but always an "[expletive]
: screwdriver."

Regarding the "slotted" designation, it sounds like a sort of abbreviation
for what my father (born in Washington DC, did most of his growing up in
Southern Maryland) called it--he always called it a "straight-slot"
screwdriver.

(The other one was consistently a "Phillips[sp?]-head" screwdriver, FTR.)

David Bowie                                       Department of English
Assistant Professor                            Brigham Young University
db.list at pmpkn.net              http://humanities.byu.edu/faculty/bowied
   The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer


From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Nov  2 16:57:08 1999
From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:57:08 -0500
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.115708.0500.>

As I was growing up, I remember hearing straight (???), regular, and slotted,
which always seemed to me to have the most official sound about it.

David Bowie wrote:

> Regarding the "slotted" designation, it sounds like a sort of abbreviation
> for what my father (born in Washington DC, did most of his growing up in
> Southern Maryland) called it--he always called it a "straight-slot"
> screwdriver.
>
> (The other one was consistently a "Phillips[sp?]-head" screwdriver, FTR.)

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                      "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From greg at PULLIAM.ORG  Tue Nov  2 17:30:40 1999
From: greg at PULLIAM.ORG (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:30:40 -0600
Subject: Screwdrivers
In-Reply-To: <381EEF53.A004EC0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.113040.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I grew up in Mississippi and Tennessee in the 60s and 70s.  My dad is
from Hannibal, MO.  I call them "phillips-head" and "flat-head"
screwdrivers.  I don't know (as I think about it now) if I picked
"flat-head" up from Dad or from living in the deep and mid- south.

-
Gregory J. Pulliam
Illinois Institute of Technology
Lewis Department of Humanities
Chicago, IL   60616
pulliam at iit.edu


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov  2 18:11:35 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:11:35 -0500
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.131135.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Flat-head is good Louisville (or was).

Dennis

>I grew up in Mississippi and Tennessee in the 60s and 70s.  My dad is
>from Hannibal, MO.  I call them "phillips-head" and "flat-head"
>screwdrivers.  I don't know (as I think about it now) if I picked
>"flat-head" up from Dad or from living in the deep and mid- south.
>
>-
>Gregory J. Pulliam
>Illinois Institute of Technology
>Lewis Department of Humanities
>Chicago, IL   60616
>pulliam at iit.edu


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  2 18:53:49 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:53:49 EST
Subject: Eccentric labels
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.135349.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ADS members should be getting their copies of the "September" Newsletter of
the American Dialect Society by first-class mail (airmail outside the U.S.)
this week. I must apologize for the look of the mailing labels on many
copies. They printed off-center vertically, so the member's name is somewhat
truncated.

Rather than delay further, I decided to go ahead with the mailing using the
eccentric labels. Most of the copies should make it to the proper address,
but some may not. If you don't get your copy of the newsletter by about Nov.
12 at the latest, let me know and I'll send a relpacement.

And well before the January issue, we'll take steps to ensure that future
labels are on target.

- Allan Metcalf


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  2 19:06:22 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:06:22 -0500
Subject: "Nitpicky" (was RE: "Virtuous circle")
In-Reply-To: <00c101bf2539$0b4ca840$8321d0d8@paul.mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.140622.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Paul McFedries wrote:

> citations. However, the earliest occurs in a Washington Post story from
> April 21, 1980, so it must be fairly new. That explains why "older"

As David Barnhart has noted, the fact that the first usage on Nexis is
dated 1980 doesn't mean that much.  The earliest I find on JSTOR is the
following:

1964 _Amer. Econ. Rev._ 54: 597  Economics would not be so difficult if
economists would just stop being obscurantist, pedantic, and nit-picky.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Tue Nov  2 19:19:04 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 12:19:04 -0700
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.121904.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin? Cheese curds are a little
ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the cheese is stringy (kind
of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and can find them nowhere!

Amy


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Tue Nov  2 19:30:55 1999
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:30:55 -0600
Subject: Cheese curds
In-Reply-To: <006801bf2567$20b5ae60$61b7f7ce@scooby.paradigmtech.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.133055.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Those are FRIED cheese curds!  Most of us here in Wisconsin eat them fresh
and squeaky.


At 12:19 PM 11/2/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin? Cheese curds are a little
>ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the cheese is stringy (kind
>of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and can find them nowhere!
>
>Amy
>


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov  2 19:38:54 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:38:54 -0500
Subject: nitpicky
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.143854.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"PAT" (P2052 at AOL.COM) wrote:

>>>>>
I don't intend to nitpick, either, but this is not the first time I've
encountered the verb, "nitpick," used as adjective, as in "nitpicky." Is this
usage geographically determined, or has it been validated via some legitimate
source?  The first time I heard a speaker use it (around 1989), another
listener "corrected" her (This interplay occurred several times.)  What's the
word on this issue?
<<<<<

I've seen that, now that you mention it. I prefer "nit-picking".

Grew up NYC, 50s-60s; Berkeley '73-'81; Boston area since.

   Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data
         Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
                     (speaking for myself)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  2 20:17:13 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:17:13 EST
Subject: VIPS and Chip's
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.151713.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

VIPS AND CHIP'S

   Greetings from a small town outside of Guadalajara, Mexico.
   The Mexican restaurant chains are:

VIPS (not VIP'S)
Sanborns (not Sanborn's)

   There are various munchies here, such as Doritos and Frit-os (I thought it was Fritos).  A company called Barcel puts out a popular potato chip brand called "Chip's."
   Chip's?
   Are they made by some Mexican guy named Chip??
   Call them at 01 800 71 868 68 to complain or to get them to explain.

--------------------------------------------------------
CANDIDE SHOPPED HERE

   Sign in a local shop:

Bazar Barrera
Los mejores clientes del mundo pasan por aqui
The best world's customers pass through here

   I didn't buy anything.

--------------------------------------------------------
VIRTUOUS CYCLES OF SYNCHRONIZED EGGS

   The NEWS reported Greenspan as saying "virtuous circles"--twice, in two separate stories.
   Yes, I meant synchronized eggs.  (It's a new Olympic event.)  The other popular way to serve eggs is Eggs Rancheros.  I'll look into that.

--------------------------------------------------------
TOP "DAY OF THE DEAD" PICKUP LINES

"What's a nice girl like you doing in a cemetery like this?"
"Come here often?"


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Tue Nov  2 20:15:09 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:15:09 -0700
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.131509.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hmm, I've only had the fried variety, and I lived in Northeast WI for 9
years. I didn't know people eat them raw.


-----Original Message-----
From: Joan Houston Hall <jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Cheese curds


>Those are FRIED cheese curds!  Most of us here in Wisconsin eat them fresh
>and squeaky.
>
>
>At 12:19 PM 11/2/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>>Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin? Cheese curds are a
little
>>ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the cheese is stringy (kind
>>of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and can find them nowhere!
>>
>>Amy
>>


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  2 20:54:42 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:54:42 -0500
Subject: 'Schwyzertueuetsch'  (was   Re: Folk etymology) (Was Re:
 Swiss enchiladas)
In-Reply-To: <00be01bf23b6$09b8f6c0$ba7a1bcc@pafracat>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.155442.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've only seen it spelled Romansch, though I don't know if that's official.

At 09:38 AM 10/31/99 -0600, you wrote:
>A possibly more definitive solution as to whether Schwyzertueuetsch is a
>language or just the overall title for a group of very high German dialects
>might be to ascertain what the four official languages are of the Swiss
>Confederation: French, Italian, Roumasch (in its various spellings (which
>one is official?), and ?  Scott Catledge
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Saturday, October 30, 1999 2:02 PM
>Subject: Re: Folk etymology (Was Re: Swiss enchiladas)
>
>
>I don't know who "they" are, but a former student of mine from die Schweiz
>told me the term 'Schwyzertueuetsch' is commonly used (and note his
>spelling, with 'y' and a doubled umlauted vowel, presumably to signal
>lengthening ['ue'  substitutes for my lack of the umlaut diacritic--how do
>you get that, Greg?]).  Trudgill, in his _Sociolinguistics_ (1995 ed., p.
>101) uses this spelling also, but he does note that his example is "based
>on Zurich speech."  My student taperecorded T's example for me, with
>wonderful intonation and very prominent vowel lengthening; I play it every
>year for my Sociolx class.
>
> >Actually, to be more accurate, since you seem to be interested, they tell
>me
> >there is not even such a thing as Schwizertütsch. There are only local
> >dialects each of which is a bit different, e.g., Züritütsch (Zürich
> >Deutsch). So they say....
> >
> >Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From Dfcoye at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  2 21:04:17 1999
From: Dfcoye at AOL.COM (Dfcoye at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:04:17 EST
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.160417.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just made some for the first time-- starter culture, rennet plus (in my
case) goat milk fresh from my Saanen and La Mancha -- and I must say they
really do squeek as you chew... they're excellent fresh, but how do you fry
them?  In vegetable oil?

Dale Coye


From lists at LOGOPHILIA.COM  Tue Nov  2 21:07:22 1999
From: lists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:07:22 -0500
Subject: Looking for a dictionary in database format
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.160722.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know of dictionary that's available in database (e.g.,
Access) format? I can find plenty of word lists, and there's no shortage
of look-up-a-word Web sites, but I want something that has words and
definitions and that I can host myself. Something based on the Scrabble
word list (which is what I use for my Word Prospector games; see
http://www.logophilia.com/WordPlay/WordProspector.html) would be ideal.
I'm happy to pay for it, too.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated.

Paul
http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov  2 21:22:55 1999
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:22:55 -0800
Subject: R(h)aeto-Romans(c)h; hold the enchiladas
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991102155346.00b3b2a0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.132255.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I've only seen it spelled Romansch, though I don't know if that's official.

Yep--although that's an English version; there are a few Romansch
versions, depending, as ever, on the dialect area. Rhaeto-Romansh, or
Raeto-Romansh, is another. Raeto-Romance is out there, too, as in
Elizabeth Maxfield's 1941 Raeto-Romance Bilbiography or James Redfern's
1971 Lexical Study of Raeto-Romance and Continguous Italian Dialect Areas.

German uses Raetoromanisch when talking about all the dialects together.
German Swiss will use the simpler Romanisch to refer to R-R.

Peter R.


From pskuhlman at JUNO.COM  Tue Nov  2 20:42:00 1999
From: pskuhlman at JUNO.COM (Patricia S. Kuhlman)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:42:00 -0500
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.154200.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:30:40 -0600 Greg Pulliam <greg at PULLIAM.ORG> writes:
>I grew up in Mississippi and Tennessee in the 60s and 70s.  My dad is
>from Hannibal, MO.  I call them "phillips-head" and "flat-head"
>screwdrivers.  I don't know (as I think about it now) if I picked
>"flat-head" up from Dad or from living in the deep and mid- south.
>
>-
>Gregory J. Pulliam
>Illinois Institute of Technology
>Lewis Department of Humanities
>Chicago, IL   60616
>pulliam at iit.edu

Ditto for me:  I call them  phillips-head (or just phillips) and
flat-head.  I grew up in a rural suburban area north of Chicago in the
50's and 60's, but I am sure that I learned this usage from my father,
not my peers.  My father grew up in the '20's in South Bend, Indiana.

Patricia Kuhlman
Brooklyn, NY
pskuhlman at juno.com


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  2 22:28:53 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 17:28:53 -0500
Subject: Cheese curds
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19991102133055.00703728@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.172853.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is this the same as something called string cheese?

At 01:30 PM 11/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Those are FRIED cheese curds!  Most of us here in Wisconsin eat them fresh
>and squeaky.
>
>
>At 12:19 PM 11/2/1999 -0700, you wrote:
> >Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin? Cheese curds are a little
> >ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the cheese is stringy (kind
> >of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and can find them nowhere!
> >
> >Amy
> >


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Tue Nov  2 22:47:07 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:47:07 -0700
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.154707.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, I don't believe so. String cheese, as I know it, is a mozzarella stick
from which you can peel strings of cheese. Cheese curds are, well, curds of
yellow cheese.

-----Original Message-----
From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Cheese curds


>Is this the same as something called string cheese?
>
>At 01:30 PM 11/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>Those are FRIED cheese curds!  Most of us here in Wisconsin eat them fresh
>>and squeaky.
>>
>>
>>At 12:19 PM 11/2/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>> >Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin? Cheese curds are a
little
>> >ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the cheese is stringy
(kind
>> >of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and can find them nowhere!
>> >
>> >Amy
>> >


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  2 22:41:08 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 17:41:08 -0500
Subject: Serbo-Croatian etc.
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.174108.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I erred:  The people are called Bosniacs; the language (now) is called
Bosnian or Bosanski.  A website for the new country lists as languages
"Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian."

>Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:14:27 -0500
>To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
>Subject: Re: 'Schwyzertueuetsch'  (was   Re: Folk etymology) (Was Re:
>Swiss enchiladas)
>
>Ditto for Bosnia, whose citizens now speak Bosniak (sp?).
>
>At 11:36 AM 10/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Is German a language (or just a collection of a bunch of High and Low
>>German dialects)? When dialects/languages are related, isn't this always a
>>sociopolitical question (with "right" answers depending on who you're
>>talking to)? Notice how quickly Serbo-Croatian became Serbian and Croatian
>>(without a blink at linguistic facts).
>>
>>dInIs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >A possibly more definitive solution as to whether Schwyzertueuetsch is a
>> >language or just the overall title for a group of very high German dialects
>> >might be to ascertain what the four official languages are of the Swiss
>> >Confederation: French, Italian, Roumasch (in its various spellings (which
>> >one is official?), and ?  Scott Catledge
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>> >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >Sent: Saturday, October 30, 1999 2:02 PM
>> >Subject: Re: Folk etymology (Was Re: Swiss enchiladas)
>> >
>> >
>> >I don't know who "they" are, but a former student of mine from die Schweiz
>> >told me the term 'Schwyzertueuetsch' is commonly used (and note his
>> >spelling, with 'y' and a doubled umlauted vowel, presumably to signal
>> >lengthening ['ue'  substitutes for my lack of the umlaut diacritic--how do
>> >you get that, Greg?]).  Trudgill, in his _Sociolinguistics_ (1995 ed., p.
>> >101) uses this spelling also, but he does note that his example is "based
>> >on Zurich speech."  My student taperecorded T's example for me, with
>> >wonderful intonation and very prominent vowel lengthening; I play it every
>> >year for my Sociolx class.
>> >
>> >>Actually, to be more accurate, since you seem to be interested, they tell
>> >me
>> >>there is not even such a thing as Schwizertütsch. There are only local
>> >>dialects each of which is a bit different, e.g., Züritütsch (Zürich
>> >>Deutsch). So they say....
>> >>
>> >>Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu
>>
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>Professor of Linguistics
>>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
>>preston at pilot.msu.edu
>>Office: (517)353-0740
>>Fax: (517)432-2736


From Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU  Wed Nov  3 00:10:41 1999
From: Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU (Bradley, Beth M)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:10:41 -0600
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.181041.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am from Wisconsin and have them regular, raw, all the time.  I have a
friend from Chicago who had never tried them, the name scared her.  When I
was in the Netherlands, I figured there were big enough on cheese to have
them, but they didn't.  Big disappointment.  You can tell how good they are
by how much they squeak.
-Beth Bradley


From Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU  Wed Nov  3 00:12:22 1999
From: Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU (Bradley, Beth M)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:12:22 -0600
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.181222.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Cheese curds can also be white, but you are right on the difference between
them and string cheese.  Often, string cheese is battered and deep fried to
make mozarella sticks.
-Beth Bradley

-----Original Message-----
From: Amy Speed [mailto:speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 4:47 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cheese curds


No, I don't believe so. String cheese, as I know it, is a mozzarella stick
from which you can peel strings of cheese. Cheese curds are, well, curds of
yellow cheese.

-----Original Message-----
From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Cheese curds


>Is this the same as something called string cheese?
>
>At 01:30 PM 11/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>Those are FRIED cheese curds!  Most of us here in Wisconsin eat them fresh
>>and squeaky.
>>
>>
>>At 12:19 PM 11/2/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>> >Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin? Cheese curds are a
little
>> >ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the cheese is stringy
(kind
>> >of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and can find them nowhere!
>> >
>> >Amy
>> >


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov  2 22:19:46 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 17:19:46 -0500
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.171946.0500.>

I grew up in western NY state, and it seems to me that we said
"flathead" and "phillips" as well, but I'm not sure if maybe we just
said "regular" and "philips" and I'm making the "flathead" up now...

Lynne

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Wed Nov  3 03:02:36 1999
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 21:02:36 -0600
Subject: Looking for lists of basic compound words
In-Reply-To: <002501bf2576$418272e0$8321d0d8@paul.mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.210236.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Admittedly, basic compound words are not very exciting, but they're really
big in elementary reading education. (Texas is just *wild* for them!)

Any ideas of lists available? An hour or so of poking around in print and
on the web got me exactly nowhere.

Thanks much!

Erin


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Wed Nov  3 07:27:28 1999
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 23:27:28 -0800
Subject: Swiss cheese
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.991102080352.29787E-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.232728.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... The
>half-round of cheese is put right up to the heat, and when the melted
>layer is just about to ooze off the chunk, you scrape it off with a knife
>onto the traditional potato, tomato, and sweet pickle.

Tomato?  I never saw that in Switzerland.  Raclette was always served with
potatoes, cubes of French bread, and sweet gherkins.  The initial order was
3 plates of the raclette, and after that you were charged by the plate.
When you were ready to leave, they just counted the number of stacked
plates.

Of course when I make it at home, I put out the traditional accompaniments
plus anything else I think would be good with melted cheese on it - like
tomato...

Rima


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov  3 12:22:05 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:22:05 -0500
Subject: "Virtuous circle"
In-Reply-To: <009301bf24b4$d795dfa0$8321d0d8@paul.mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.072205.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Paul McFedries wrote:

> This is not quite as popular as "virtuous circle," with only 434 L-N
> citations for 1999. Note, too (insert nod to Fred Shapiro here) that the
> OED doesn't have virtuous cycle (or even vicious cycle, for that matter;
> it does have vicious circle and vicious spiral).

This to me is the most interesting angle: that OED has _vicious circle_,
but not the more common _vicious cycle_.  The earliest usage I can find
for _vicious cycle_ is the following:

1921 _Amer. Jrnl. Sociology_ 27: 327  In typhoid fever, yellow fever, and
malaria the vicious cycle of the disease may be broken by controlling a
certain element in the environment ... as is readily seen there is no
intermediate part of the vicious cycle.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From sarim at CSD.UWM.EDU  Wed Nov  3 13:40:19 1999
From: sarim at CSD.UWM.EDU (Mariann Maris)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:40:19 -0600
Subject: Cheese curds
In-Reply-To: <2717AE3C3A50D311BD5B00C00D0093042B1E28@ems5.uwsp.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.074019.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A few years ago, my husband and I stopped regularly at a small cheese
factory in northern Wisconsin.  We timed our visit in order to buy "fresh"
cheese curds.

        In the cheese making process, milk is dumped into huge stainless
steel vats.  Rennet is mixed into the milk so that the milk solids are
separated from the liquids (little Miss Muppet ate curds and whey).  These
milk solids are chopped into curds and salted after all the whey is
pumped off. (About 10% of milk is solid.)

The little cheese factory we visited no longer exists.  The curds (those
we didn't buy)) were packed into containers and shipped to other cheese
processing plants where the curds were processed into American cheese.

The discussion about cheese curds brings back memories of a time in
Wisconsin where small operative dairy farms peppered the landscape.
Cheese factories were numerous too.  No longer the case ---

Mariann Maris
English Department
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
P.O. Box 413
Milwaukee, WI 53201
(414)229-4152
sarim at uwm.edu


From ebogne1 at ibm.net  Wed Nov  3 15:30:48 1999
From: ebogne1 at ibm.net (Elizabeth Bogner)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:30:48 -0400
Subject: Books on History of AmE?
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.113048.0400.>

What are the best books out there that provide a basic history
specifically of
American English? I'm looking for a real history, not something with a
contemporary survey like Wolfram and Schilling-Estes.

Thank you.


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Wed Nov  3 20:20:38 1999
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:20:38 -0800
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.122038.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I spent 10-12 years working part time (and some full time stints) in my
dad's plumbing/heating contracting business. Around our shop it was
"regular" or "phillips". And usually it was just "Phillips?". The answer
defined the choice.

Bob

Lynne Murphy wrote:

> I grew up in western NY state, and it seems to me that we said
> "flathead" and "phillips" as well, but I'm not sure if maybe we just
> said "regular" and "philips" and I'm making the "flathead" up now...
>
> Lynne


From M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu  Wed Nov  3 16:56:01 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:56:01 -0500
Subject: funeralize, again
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.115601.0500.>

I tried to send this message earlier, and think I screwed up.  Apologies
if you get it twice.

I can't remember who originally posted the "funeralize" query, but I was
just sorting through my files, trying to pare down my worldly
possessions before moving, and found an article to which I'd affixed a
post-it that said "funeralize"--I'd forgotten that I'd read about the
word before.  The article is "A partial Black word list from East Texas"
by Ann R. B. Heald, which appeared in _Linguistic and literary studies
in honor of Archibald A. Hill" (1979, Mouton).  I'd happily send it to
the person who made the query if she (? I think 'she') would send me her
address.  What it says about "funeralize" is that it's commonly used by
Black people, and known by White people, but not used seriously by them.

Lynne

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Nov  3 18:52:50 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:52:50 -0800
Subject: iced tea - Word for the Wise, June 1, 1998
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.105250.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the Merriam-Webster Web site (http://www.m-w.com/wftw/98jun/060198.htm):

(warning:  Barry, don't read this!)

  June is National Iced Tea Month. Iced tea was introduced in
  1904 at the Saint Louis World's Fair when an Englishman
  unable to sell the heated version because of the hot weather
  was inspired to pour the beverage over ice.

But the interesting thing is that the script goes on to discuss the controversy
about the combinations "ice cream" and "ice water" vs. "iced cream" and "iced
water":

  Commentator Alfred Ayres explained, "What is called
  ice-cream is cream iced; hence, properly, iced cream and not
  ice-cream. The product of melted water is ice-water,
  whether it be cold or warm; but water made cold with ice is
  iced water, and not ice-water."

The thing is, I don't agree with his explanation of ice cream.  We do not pour
cream over ice and call it "ice cream".  We freeze the cream, making it ice,
cream ice, if you will.  So I actually find "ice cream" makes perfect sense.  If
you did want a drink of cream poured over ice, then I suspect you'd call it
"iced cream" to differentiate.

Drink for thought,
Andrea


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Nov  3 19:07:15 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:07:15 -0800
Subject: hokey-pokey
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.110715.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So I'm continuing to read old Word for the Wise scripts (at the Merriam-Webster
site http://www.m-w.com), and came across one for "hokey-pokey".  Based on the
description of the origins of "hokey-pokey", which they say are the same as
those for "hocus-pocus", it made me wonder why the English use "hokey-kokey".
My husband says "hokey-kokey" referring to the musical game, and I'm sure I've
heard his English friends use the same term.

Does anyone know?

Andrea
(putting her two cents in, taking her two cents out, ...)


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Wed Nov  3 19:23:01 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:23:01 -0500
Subject: flat-head screw(driver)s
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.142301.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg Pulliam <greg at PULLIAM.ORG> writes:

>>>>>
     [...]
I call them "phillips-head" and "flat-head"
screwdrivers.  I don't know (as I think about it now) if I picked
"flat-head" up from Dad or from living in the deep and mid- south.
<<<<<

And others here also speak of "flat-head screwdrivers".

I'm not a hardware geek by any means, but from shopping in hardware stores for
screws to match the ones I've got for a particular job at home, I've learned
that "flat-head screws" are distinguished from, I think, "oval-head screws" by
the profile of the top, and are so shown on the box. The criterion is, Is the
top literally flat (apart from the cut for the screwdriver head) or does it
bulge into a curved surface? This is a separate dimension from the cut*, which
is what this thread has been about up to now: Phillips vs. straight.

* for lack of a more precise word

So the term may be used differently by
 - the manufacturers (and maybe those who deal professionally with the hardware,
such as carpenters and cabinetmakers) and
 - some of the rest of us.

-- Mark


From Simon at IPFW.EDU  Wed Nov  3 19:28:13 1999
From: Simon at IPFW.EDU (Simon,Beth)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:28:13 -0500
Subject: snicker doodle redux
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.142813.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday, the only bagels left at my new favorite coffee house were
snicker doodle. They were bagels (the Fort Wayne city of churches
version) with a cinnamon sugar coating on top -- what one associates
with cinnamon toast.

A snicker doodle bagel makes a cinnamon raisin bagel seem ...
traditional.

beth simon
assistant professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
simon at ipfw.edu
or
simon at home2.mysolution.com


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Wed Nov  3 20:09:27 1999
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:09:27 -0600
Subject: flat-head screw(driver)s
In-Reply-To: <8525681E.006A2C67.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.140927.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, I'm familiar with and use the term "flat-head screw."  And I use
"flat-head screwdriver."  And the latter is not necessarily used with
the former.  There are flat-headed screws which require phillips-head
screwdrivers.


>Greg Pulliam <greg at PULLIAM.ORG> writes:
>
>  >>>>>
>      [...]
>I call them "phillips-head" and "flat-head"
>screwdrivers.  I don't know (as I think about it now) if I picked
>"flat-head" up from Dad or from living in the deep and mid- south.
><<<<<
>
>And others here also speak of "flat-head screwdrivers".
>
>I'm not a hardware geek by any means, but from shopping in hardware stores for
>screws to match the ones I've got for a particular job at home, I've learned
>that "flat-head screws" are distinguished from, I think, "oval-head screws" by
>the profile of the top, and are so shown on the box. The criterion is, Is the
>top literally flat (apart from the cut for the screwdriver head) or does it
>bulge into a curved surface? This is a separate dimension from the cut*, which
>is what this thread has been about up to now: Phillips vs. straight.
>
>* for lack of a more precise word
>
>So the term may be used differently by
>  - the manufacturers (and maybe those who deal professionally with
>the hardware,
>such as carpenters and cabinetmakers) and
>  - some of the rest of us.
>
>-- Mark

-

Greg


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Nov  3 19:55:49 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:55:49 -0800
Subject: flat-head screw(driver)s
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.115549.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oh all right, I call them flat-head and phillips screwdrivers, and flat-head
screws (what the English might call counter-sink screws).  Flat-head screws
should be counter-sunk so that they wind up flush with the flat surface.  I
guess the others are round-heads?  I'm not sure.

The thing is, a flat-head screw might require a phillips screwdriver, so one has
nothing to do with the other.

Andrea

Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
>
> And others here also speak of "flat-head screwdrivers".
>
> I'm not a hardware geek by any means, but from shopping in hardware stores for
> screws to match the ones I've got for a particular job at home, I've learned
> that "flat-head screws" are distinguished from, I think, "oval-head screws" by
> the profile of the top, and are so shown on the box. The criterion is, Is the
> top literally flat (apart from the cut for the screwdriver head) or does it
> bulge into a curved surface? This is a separate dimension from the cut*, which
> is what this thread has been about up to now: Phillips vs. straight.
>
> * for lack of a more precise word
>
> So the term may be used differently by
>  - the manufacturers (and maybe those who deal professionally with the hardware,
> such as carpenters and cabinetmakers) and
>  - some of the rest of us.
>
> -- Mark


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov  3 20:29:08 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:29:08 -0500
Subject: flat-head screw(driver)s
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.152908.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ditto for me.

dInIs

>Yes, I'm familiar with and use the term "flat-head screw."  And I use
>"flat-head screwdriver."  And the latter is not necessarily used with
>the former.  There are flat-headed screws which require phillips-head
>screwdrivers.
>
>
>>Greg Pulliam <greg at PULLIAM.ORG> writes:
>>
>>  >>>>>
>>      [...]
>>I call them "phillips-head" and "flat-head"
>>screwdrivers.  I don't know (as I think about it now) if I picked
>>"flat-head" up from Dad or from living in the deep and mid- south.
>><<<<<
>>
>>And others here also speak of "flat-head screwdrivers".
>>
>>I'm not a hardware geek by any means, but from shopping in hardware stores for
>>screws to match the ones I've got for a particular job at home, I've learned
>>that "flat-head screws" are distinguished from, I think, "oval-head screws" by
>>the profile of the top, and are so shown on the box. The criterion is, Is the
>>top literally flat (apart from the cut for the screwdriver head) or does it
>>bulge into a curved surface? This is a separate dimension from the cut*, which
>>is what this thread has been about up to now: Phillips vs. straight.
>>
>>* for lack of a more precise word
>>
>>So the term may be used differently by
>>  - the manufacturers (and maybe those who deal professionally with
>>the hardware,
>>such as carpenters and cabinetmakers) and
>>  - some of the rest of us.
>>
>>-- Mark
>
>-
>
>Greg

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Nov  3 20:21:11 1999
From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:21:11 -0500
Subject: iced tea - Word for the Wise, June 1, 1998
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.152111.0500.>

Or a white russian . . . the favorite drink of an ex of mine and also of the most
excellent "Dude" (Jeff Bridges in The Big Lebowski).

"A. Vine" wrote:

> The thing is, I don't agree with his explanation of ice cream.  We do not pour
> cream over ice and call it "ice cream".  We freeze the cream, making it ice,
> cream ice, if you will.  So I actually find "ice cream" makes perfect sense.  If
> you did want a drink of cream poured over ice, then I suspect you'd call it
> "iced cream" to differentiate.
>
> Drink for thought,
> Andrea

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                         "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  3 21:52:45 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:52:45 EST
Subject: Gay Panic defense, Mgt. Citizenship  Behavior
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.165245.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Guanajauto, Mexico.  That means Place of the Frogs (not guano).  It holds a Cervantes fastival...Oaxaca string cheese is famous and tastes quite good (FWIW in the cheese discussion)..."Hokey Pokey" was popularized in a song in the early 1800s...(Danny) Long time, no hear.

--------------------------------------------------------
GAY PANIC DEFENSE

   This defense was raised in the high-profile case of the man accused of beating college student Matthew Shepard.  The trial is in Laramie, Wyoming.
   The "Gay Panic" defense was thrown out.  It's no "Twinkies," but what else is?

--------------------------------------------------------
MANAGEMENT CITIZENSHIP BEHAVIOR

   From the NEWS (from Sherwood Ross of Reuters), 2 November 1999, pg. 34, col. 2:

_Modern Managers Embracing Empoerment_
   STURGIS, S.D.--Are managers falling behind the times in today's changing workplace?  "There's been a big push to have employees work harder and smarter, but not a lot of attention is being paid to what managers should contribute to the new workplace," said one researcher after an in-depth study of the operations of 108 companies, large and small.
   "The nature of the new bargain proposed by management for the workplace entails greater mental and physical effort on the part of the workers in exchange for benefits that are often left vague and undefined," said sociologist Randy Hodson of (the?--ed.) Ohio State University, Columbus, an authority on corporate responsibility.  (OSU or the professor?--ed.)
   Probably 60 percent of managers do not display adequate "management citizenship behavior (MCB)," said Hodson, using a term he coined to define what he believes is their responsibility. (...)


From GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA  Wed Nov  3 23:15:56 1999
From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA (No Name Available)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:15:56 PST
Subject: flat-head screw(driver)s
In-Reply-To: <v04220801b44646300036@[216.47.144.24]>
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.151556.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No one has so far mentioned the third type of screwdriver, called in Canada
a "Robertson." It's for those screw-heads that have neither a slot nor a cross,
but a square indentation (or don't you have those down there?). I suppose you
can use a Phillips for them, but a Robertson works much better.

And now I'm off to find the vodka and orange juice (you do call that a
"screwdriver," don't you?).

Barbara Harris.


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Nov  3 23:36:27 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:36:27 -0800
Subject: flat-head screw(driver)s
In-Reply-To: <991103.152043.PST.GRADMA@uvvm.UVic.CA>
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.153627.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've always heard them called square drive or by a more generic term like
security screws and the driver, a square-headed screw driver; never heard
it called "Robertson" screwdriver. I would think a Phillips would slip out
of a square hole because the pitch of the point (or blades, I think
they're called) on a Phillips (which comes
in different sizes all of which are also a different pitch) wouldn't
fit very precisely in the corners of a square hole.

A "torx" head and one other that sort of looks like the international
warning symbol for radiation are a couple more that have their own special
screwdrivers. The "one-way security" screw is installed with a standard
(slotted) screwdriver. I'm not sure how it is removed--pliers, I guess.


allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


 On Wed, 3 Nov 1999 GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA wrote:

> No one has so far mentioned the third type of screwdriver, called in Canada
> a "Robertson." It's for those screw-heads that have neither a slot nor a cross,
> but a square indentation (or don't you have those down there?). I suppose you
> can use a Phillips for them, but a Robertson works much better.
>
> And now I'm off to find the vodka and orange juice (you do call that a
> "screwdriver," don't you?).
>
> Barbara Harris.
>


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Thu Nov  4 00:04:24 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:04:24 -0600
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.180424.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: Patricia S. Kuhlman <pskuhlman at JUNO.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: Screwdrivers


> On Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:30:40 -0600 Greg Pulliam <greg at PULLIAM.ORG> writes:
> >I grew up in Mississippi and Tennessee in the 60s and 70s.  My dad is
> >from Hannibal, MO.  I call them "phillips-head" and "flat-head"
> >screwdrivers.  I don't know (as I think about it now) if I picked
> >"flat-head" up from Dad or from living in the deep and mid- south.
> >
> >-
> >Gregory J. Pulliam
> >Illinois Institute of Technology
> >Lewis Department of Humanities
> >Chicago, IL   60616
> >pulliam at iit.edu
>
> Ditto for me:  I call them  phillips-head (or just phillips) and
> flat-head.  I grew up in a rural suburban area north of Chicago in the
> 50's and 60's, but I am sure that I learned this usage from my father,
> not my peers.  My father grew up in the '20's in South Bend, Indiana.
>
> Patricia Kuhlman
> Brooklyn, NY
> pskuhlman at juno.com

I grew up in small town northern and central Florida in the 40s (Orlando
boasted of its 39,000 population).  My father was from small town SWGeorgia
& Florida panhandle; my mother was from rural central Mississippi.  Both of
them said "screwdriver" and much later on, when I saw my first screw with a
plus sign slot instead of a single slot, it was called a "Phillips" or a
"Phillips screwdriver."  "Screwdriver" by itself always meant a single slot;
phillips (with/without "screwdriver") meant a plus sign slot.  My friends in
Winter Park, FL (a Yankee paradise: three of my graduating class were born
in Winter Park; three in Indianapolis, etc.) who worked on their cars all
used the same identifiers.  "Phillips" and "screwdriver" were the common
terms used.


From gbarrett at americandialect.org  Thu Nov  4 01:07:08 1999
From: gbarrett at americandialect.org (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 20:07:08 -0500
Subject: flat-head screw(driver)s
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.200708.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Wednesday, November 03, 1999, A. Maberry
<maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU> wrote:

>A "torx" head and one other that sort of looks like the
international
>warning symbol for radiation are a couple more that have their
own special
>screwdrivers. The "one-way security" screw is installed with a
standard
>(slotted) screwdriver. I'm not sure how it is removed--pliers,
>I guess.

Then there's "hex wrenches" and "Allen wrenches" which, as far
as I can recall, are the same: six-sided, long metal tools used
(by me, anyway) to take screws out of delicate places in computers.

--
Grant Barrett

http://www.worldnewyork.com/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  4 01:15:57 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 20:15:57 EST
Subject: Mexican shoes; Mexican ice cream
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.201557.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MEXICAN SHOES

   Mexicans love their shoes, and it appears that they use American slang to name them.
   There are shoe stores everywhere!  Sometimes there are four of them in a row!
   Large stores include Canada (based in Guadalajara) and 3 Hermanos.
   Canada has a shoe called Yuppie.
   Dog names are very popular for shoes.  A popular brand is called Dingo.  I'll write down the others when I see the next 3 Hermanos.  Is this from Hush Puppies and the U.S. slang for "dog," or have the Spanish always used this?

--------------------------------------------------------
MEXICAN ICE CREAM

   Nestle Helados offers:

Copa fiesta
Bogart
Belle epoque
Sundae
Velero
Banana split
Copadrisima
Rompecafe

   When did Bogart become an ice cream?

--------------------------------------------------------
KIKE (continued)

   There is a big sign over a store here in Guanajuarto that reads: "KIKE."
   I was told that it stands for Enrique.


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  4 02:12:56 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:12:56 EST
Subject: hokey-pokey
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.211256.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the community where I grew up in a small steel town in the suburbs of
Birmingham, AL, all the children used to play a game called the "hokey pokey,
" the words of which were as follows:
            "You put your right foot in,
              You take your right foot out,
              You put your right foot in,
               And you shake it all about,
               Do the hokey pokey,
               And you turn yourself around,
               That''s what it's all about,
               Hokey pokey!"
Then, we'd chant the same tune, and do the accompanying movements,
substituting "left foot," "right hand," "left hand," and other body parts.

I don't recall anybody's using the phrase, "hokey kokey."  Besides, I think
it would have been a bit difficult for most of the children to enunciate at
that age (6-10) and at that tempo.
                    PAT


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Thu Nov  4 02:15:52 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:15:52 -0800
Subject: Indigenous Languages of the Americas
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.181552.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another one from the Scout Report.

1.  The Society for the Study of the Indigenous Languages of the
Americas (SSILA)
http://trc2.ucdavis.edu/ssila/default.asp

Sponsored by the Native American Language Center at the
University of
California-Davis, the SSILA's site serves as a superb resource
for
those studying Indigenous American languages. In addition to
information about the society and its mission, and bulletins
about
upcoming events in the field of Indigenous language study, the
site
features a searchable comprehensive listing of articles on
American
Indian Languages in more than 100 journals from 1988 to the
present;
a Dissertation & Thesis Index, publishing abstracts of over 200
dissertations and theses on American Indian languages and
related
topics; a searchable database of notices and reviews for over
650
relevant books; an extensive and briefly annotated directory of
Internet links for additional research; and a catalog of
language
learning materials, including ordering information, available
for
over 200 North American Indian languages. Membership information
and
a directory of SSILA members are also posted on-site.


From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM  Thu Nov  4 04:48:31 1999
From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 23:48:31 -0500
Subject: Mexican shoes; Mexican ice cream
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.234831.0500.>

What does it taste like:  a Lucky Strike or a Camel no-filter?

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> MEXICAN ICE CREAM
>
>    When did Bogart become an ice cream?

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                                                                                                    "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Thu Nov  4 14:39:53 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:39:53 -0600
Subject: "Nitpicky" (was RE: "Virtuous circle")
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.083953.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Ticky" and "nitpicky" were synonyms in 1940's in north Florida.  I did not
know what a nit was until 1948 when I read John Brown's explanation of why
he murdered all the children of slave-owners that he could, "Nits make
gnats."
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul McFedries <lists at MCFEDRIES.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 7:49 AM
Subject: "Nitpicky" (was RE: "Virtuous circle")


> I would classify "nitpicky" as perfectly acceptable usage. As my
> "legitimate source" I offer Lexis-Nexis, which reports nearly 1,000
> citations. However, the earliest occurs in a Washington Post story from
> April 21, 1980, so it must be fairly new. That explains why "older"
> dictionaries (OED, Webster's Third New International) don't have it. I
> did find it in the recently-published Canadian Oxford Dictionary, thus
> solidifying its claim as my favorite lexicon. Can anyone find nitpicky
> in any other sources (Encarta, perhaps)?
>
> Paul
> http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/
>
> > I don't intend to nitpick, either, but this is not the first time
> > I've encountered the verb, "nitpick," used as adjective, as in
> > "nitpicky." Is this usage geographically determined, or has it been
> > validated via some legitimate source?  The first time I heard a
> > speaker use it (around 1989), another listener "corrected" her
> > (This interplay occurred several times.)  What's the word on this
> > issue?
> >                     PAT


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Nov  4 15:37:20 1999
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:37:20 -0500
Subject: Mason & Dixon Line: note
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.103720.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is merely a follow up to some posts in early August of this year,
with reference to the usage of 'Mason and Dixon line'.  Still don't know
when the differences in the usage of 'Mason and Dixon' line came into
use, but there are marked differences.  Standard reference works tend to
ignore the issue of differences in usage.  At the least, it appears that
there is a strong argument for using a regional-usage label for the most
encompassing definition.  The question of which came first, the
'regional' definition or the national definition, is yet to be answered.

For that matter, in linguistic studies, does the term 'regional usage'
refer to a usage from which a more widely used definition evolves, or
does the term refer to the usage by a population subset, which evolved
from a more widely used definition?  Or. . . ?

The standard dictionary definition for Mason Dixon line refers to an
east-west  line that extends for much of the boundary between
Pennsylvania (of today) and Maryland.  Microsoft's Encarta 98
Encyclopedia also includes, for Mason-Dixon line, a north-south line,
which is a boundary between Maryland and Delaware.  I, a native of
Delaware, had been taught that the line also included the portion of the
east-west line where the southern boundary of Delaware meets Maryland.

Mason-Dixon Line, in reference to the east-west southern boundary of
Delaware appears in a recent newspaper article.  The item appears in
_State News Sunday_, subtitled _Maryland State News_ and _The Downstate
Daily_ (Dover, DE), vol. 100 #90, 31 October 1999, pp. 25, 28.  Titled
'Delmar: the best of both worlds', by Aaron B. Kellam.

"Straddling the Mason-Dixon Line along the Delaware Maryland border,
tiny Delmar has been dubbed 'the town too big for one state.'" (p.25,
col. 6)  Quoting town historian and local resident George Truitt, about
a consolidation of nearby schools in both states, "The kids got the
parents to forget the dividing line (Mason-Dixon Line) (sic) within the
town.  If it had been left up to the old people, it would have still
been the same problem."  (p. 28, col. 5)

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Nov  4 15:56:25 1999
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:56:25 -0500
Subject: Mason & Dixon Line: note
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.105625.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

[This note was originally sent to an incorrect address for the list.
If, somehow, two copies make it to your mailbox, my sincere apologies.
Remember, the apologies are only for instances of duplicate copies.  For
single copy, no apology, even if you feel that such would be warranted.
{:- )   ]

This is merely a follow up to some posts in early August of this year,
with reference to the usage of 'Mason and Dixon line'.  Still don't know
when the differences in the usage of 'Mason and Dixon' line came into
use, but there are marked differences.  Standard reference works tend to
ignore the issue of differences in usage.  At the least, it appears that
there is a strong argument for using a regional-usage label for the most
encompassing definition.  The question of which came first, the
'regional' definition or the national definition, is yet to be answered.

For that matter, in linguistic studies, does the term 'regional usage'
refer to a usage from which a more widely used definition evolves, or
does the term refer to the usage by a population subset, which evolved
from a more widely used definition?  Or. . . ?

The standard dictionary definition for Mason Dixon line refers to an
east-west  line that extends for much of the boundary between
Pennsylvania (of today) and Maryland.  Microsoft's Encarta 98
Encyclopedia also includes, for Mason-Dixon line, a north-south line,
which is a boundary between Maryland and Delaware.  I, a native of
Delaware, had been taught that the line also included the portion of the
east-west line where the southern boundary of Delaware meets Maryland.

Mason-Dixon Line, in reference to the east-west southern boundary of
Delaware appears in a recent newspaper article.  The item appears in
_State News Sunday_, subtitled _Maryland State News_ and _The Downstate
Daily_ (Dover, DE), vol. 100 #90, 31 October 1999, pp. 25, 28.  Titled
'Delmar: the best of both worlds', by Aaron B. Kellam.

"Straddling the Mason-Dixon Line along the Delaware Maryland border,
tiny Delmar has been dubbed 'the town too big for one state.'" (p.25,
col. 6)  Quoting town historian and local resident George Truitt, about
a consolidation of nearby schools in both states, "The kids got the
parents to forget the dividing line (Mason-Dixon Line) (sic) within the
town.  If it had been left up to the old people, it would have still
been the same problem."  (p. 28, col. 5)

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  4 16:56:14 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 11:56:14 EST
Subject: "Slept like a baby"
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.115614.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"I slept like a baby.  I woke up in the middle of the night and demanded breastfeeding."
--some comedian (I forget which one)

   One member of my group woke up early and thought we had an earthquake last night.  Another group member woke up to the sound of the church bells at 6 a.m.  I "slept like a baby."
   Why is the saying "slept like a baby"?  Did we cover this before?
   I don't have the OED handy.  Maybe someone from the OED can straighten this out.


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Nov  4 17:29:18 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:29:18 -0800
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.092918.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fresh (unbattered and uncooked) cheese curds are sold
in most dairy co-op and cheese factory stores in Utah,
Idaho, and Wyoming, and can also be bought in some
grocery stores.

On the related "string cheese" subject, pasta filata
is a process that is used to manufacture several
different Italian cheeses, not just mozzarella, e.g.,
scamorza, bocconcini, provola.  I don't know what the
pasta filata process actually is, but I suspect it
still starts with curds.

JIM

--- Amy Speed <speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM> wrote:
> Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin?
> Cheese curds are a little
> ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the
> cheese is stringy (kind
> of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and
> can find them nowhere!
>
> Amy
>






=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Thu Nov  4 17:16:09 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:16:09 -0700
Subject: "Slept like a baby"
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.101609.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My 10-month-old baby sleeps long and peacefully through the night and wakes
up refreshed. Besides, they'll sleep almost anywhere. They have an amazing
ability to relax.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 9:56 AM
Subject: "Slept like a baby"


>"I slept like a baby.  I woke up in the middle of the night and demanded
breastfeeding."
>--some comedian (I forget which one)
>
>   One member of my group woke up early and thought we had an earthquake
last night.  Another group member woke up to the sound of the church bells
at 6 a.m.  I "slept like a baby."
>   Why is the saying "slept like a baby"?  Did we cover this before?
>   I don't have the OED handy.  Maybe someone from the OED can straighten
this out.


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Nov  4 18:47:14 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:47:14 -0800
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.104714.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Okay, my curiosity was aroused and I found a web site
at http://www.mozzco.com/mozzhist.html that gives an
explanation, in english, of pasta filata and the
making of mozzarella and other pasta filata cheeses:
the process starts with curd.  (It states there are no
buffalo dairies in the USA, but I believe one started
operating in California within the last couple of
years and produces fresh mozzarella di bufala.)

How did we get from dialects to cheesemaking, anyway?

JIM

--- James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
...
>
> On the related "string cheese" subject, pasta filata
> is a process that is used to manufacture several
> different Italian cheeses, not just mozzarella,
> e.g.,
> scamorza, bocconcini, provola.  I don't know what
> the
> pasta filata process actually is, but I suspect it
> still starts with curds.
>
> JIM



=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Nov  4 18:56:18 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:56:18 -0800
Subject: "Slept like a baby"
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.105618.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>    One member of my group woke up early and thought we had an earthquake last night.

At 12:30 AM last night, Pacific Standard time, there was definitely an
earthquake which I felt in the Bay Area.  It lasted about 25 seconds.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Nov  4 19:32:25 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 11:32:25 -0800
Subject: Off-topic:  Mozzarella di bufala
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.113225.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For those of you who are interested, here is the company:

http://www.italcheese.com/

However, they don't mention the water buffaloes on their Web site.  This article
talks about them:

http://www.californiaheartland.org/archive/hl_301/buffmozz.htm

Andrea


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Nov  4 18:38:43 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:38:43 -0500
Subject: "Slept like a baby"
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.133843.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I heard somewhere on NPR in the last couple of days that babies sleep
so soundly because they have a relatively poor sense of hearing.  My 8
and 9-1/2 year-olds can sleep through a lot of noise but we get
surprised when what we consider nominal conversation wakes them.

Regards,
David K. Barnhart


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  4 20:01:09 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 15:01:09 EST
Subject: Hoosier
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.150109.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It was published in 1992, but I've just now found an excellent article on the
meaning and usage of "Hoosier" in the Indiana Monthly Magazine:

http://www.alumni.indiana.edu/fun/hoosier.html

- Allan Metcalf


From elliottn at INDIANA.EDU  Thu Nov  4 20:32:42 1999
From: elliottn at INDIANA.EDU (Nancy Carol Elliott)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 15:32:42 -0500
Subject: PhiladelphiaRe: Hoosier
In-Reply-To: <0.1e657277.25534005@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.153242.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know the answer to this question?

Was the speech of whites of non-Italian ancestry in Philadelphia ever
variably rhotic or non-rhotic?


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Thu Nov  4 10:31:42 1999
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:31:42 +0000
Subject: Books on History of AmE?
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.103142.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> What are the best books out there that provide a basic history
> specifically of
> American English? I'm looking for a real history, not something with a
> contemporary survey like Wolfram and Schilling-Estes.
>
> Thank you.
>

H.L. Menken, _The American Language_ (1936)
W.N. Francis, something like American English
J.L. Dillard

These are the closest I've been able to come to a "real history" with the
libraries at my access.  For some reason, I don't have these in my own
bibliography, which is shocking.  You might also want to check out the ADS
website, because this question has come up before.

Good luck,
Aaron

________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From gibbens at erols.com  Thu Nov  4 21:08:23 1999
From: gibbens at erols.com (Elizabeth Gibbens)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 16:08:23 -0500
Subject: Winnowy
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.160823.0500.GIBBENS@EROLS.COM>

Hello everyone,

        A friend of mine recently spotted the word "winnowy" on the front page of USA Today. The word was used to describe a woman, in the way "willowy" is usually used. Should we assume a typo, or is this a new adjective to desribe someone who has come out of her shell, so to speak?

                                                                                Elizabeth
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From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Thu Nov  4 21:09:09 1999
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 14:09:09 -0700
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.140909.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From: Amy Speed <speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM>


: Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin? Cheese curds are a
: little ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the cheese is
: stringy (kind of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and can
: find them nowhere!

FTR, i've seen unbattered, uncooked cheese curds for sale at the
Bird-in-Hand Farmer's Market (which is only vaguely a farmer's market) in
Bird-in-Hand PA. They're also, of course, part of the odd but pleasant
Quebecois dish, poutine(sp?).

And in a desperate attempt to bring this even remotely on-topic, anyone know
why they're called "curds"?

David Bowie                                       Department of English
Assistant Professor                            Brigham Young University
db.list at pmpkn.net              http://humanities.byu.edu/faculty/bowied
   The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  4 22:27:27 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 17:27:27 EST
Subject: Books on History of AmE?
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.172727.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  Mencken is still the most comprehensive historian, but look for this
relatively updated version:

H.L. Mencken, The American Language. One-volume abridged edition. Edited by
Raven I. McDavid, Jr. New York: Knopf, 1963.

   Marckwardt's basic history was revised to this:

Albert H. Marckwardt, American English; revised by J.L. Dillard. New York :
Oxford University Press, 1980.

  And then, if you're just interested in the development of the American
vocabulary, you might look for (ahem):

David K. Barnhart and Allan A. Metcalf, America in So Many Words.  Boston:
Houghton Mifflin, 1997.

- Allan Metcalf


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 00:29:47 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 19:29:47 EST
Subject: CYBERCHAT(TER)
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.192947.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone heard before the term, "cyberchatter"? Recently, my cousin sent me
an e-mail in which he used the term.  In fact, he claimed that he coined it.
In jest, I sent him a message, reducing the term simply to "cyberchat."   Any
word on the viabilily of such a term?  Has it been used before?
                            PAT


From ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  5 02:30:39 1999
From: ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM (Jane Clark)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 18:30:39 PST
Subject: Eccentric labels
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.183039.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks for the message. I was wondering where my newsletter was!


>From: AAllan at AOL.COM
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Eccentric labels
>Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:53:49 EST
>
>ADS members should be getting their copies of the "September" Newsletter of
>the American Dialect Society by first-class mail (airmail outside the U.S.)
>this week. I must apologize for the look of the mailing labels on many
>copies. They printed off-center vertically, so the member's name is
>somewhat
>truncated.
>
>Rather than delay further, I decided to go ahead with the mailing using the
>eccentric labels. Most of the copies should make it to the proper address,
>but some may not. If you don't get your copy of the newsletter by about
>Nov.
>12 at the latest, let me know and I'll send a relpacement.
>
>And well before the January issue, we'll take steps to ensure that future
>labels are on target.
>
>- Allan Metcalf

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From greg at PULLIAM.ORG  Fri Nov  5 02:44:52 1999
From: greg at PULLIAM.ORG (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 20:44:52 -0600
Subject: fat-pipe
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.204452.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From http://macweek.zdnet.com/1999/10/31/rfiwed.html

"Joe Six-Pack sits down at his iMac and opens his consumer
page-layout or word processor application. Or maybe he's using one of
the new information appliances and opens the application off the
server. (Since his fat-pipe Internet connection is always on -- or he
has a server in his closet -- the server-based software launches
fairly quickly.) For argument's sake, Joe has at least a DSL or
cable-modem connection, and he's also the proud owner of a FireWire
digital camera and camcorder."
-
Greg


From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  5 04:03:25 1999
From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 20:03:25 PST
Subject: Philadelphia
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.200325.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: Nancy Carol Elliott <elliottn at INDIANA.EDU>
>
>Was the speech of whites of non-Italian ancestry in Philadelphia ever
>variably rhotic or non-rhotic?

I've never read anything to suggest it was. (Then again, I didn't know
Italian ancestry had anything to do with it, either...)

This is from William Van Riper's 1957 dissertation, "The Loss of
Post-Vocalic _R_ in the Eastern United States":

"In Philadelphia, the "r-less" type is not now current. It is significant
that, although Philadelphia was a major colonial port, its connections with
England were largely commercial. It had no royal governor and fewer English
officials to provide contact with London society. Moreover, the Quakers, who
constituted the dominant group in the Philadelphia area, were not received
socially in English society. Class distinctions were well marked in Colonial
times in the present "r-less" areas, but in Philadelphia they probably were
less well-defined. Thus the motivation for the spread of the "r-less" type
was lacking. The "r-less" type was undoubtedly introduced into the present
"r-less" areas with the early settlers, but its spread has evidently been
closely allied to its acceptance as a prestige feature...(p.98)"

I imagine that Kurath would have agreed with his student's explanation.
Wolfram and Schilling-Estes might too; they write:

"Another of the nation's earliest cultural and linguistic centers was
Philadelphia, established in the 1680s by Quakers under the leadership of
William Penn. The Quaker movement was organized in [rhotic] North England
and the northern Midlands, and so [?] Philadelphia was, from the first, far
less like Southern England in its speech habits than New England. (p.98
again!)"

But what Wolfram and Schilling-Estes say about New York startled me:

"Interestingly, one of the most stereotypically r-less regions in this
country, New York City (as evidenced in phrases like "toity-toid
street"...), began life as an r-ful speech area. In fact, it wasn't until at
least the mid-1800s that r-lessness, which spread into the city from New
England, was fully established there. (p.95)"

I am willing to believe this theory, but on what grounds (and by whom) was
it constructed? Is it perhaps an argument laid out in the chapter
"Rhoticity" in William Downes' _Language and Society_ (1984)?

I am eager to learn what type(s?) of evidence were found to support this
rather exciting claim.

If true, it casts doubt on the theory that New Orleans' "toity-toid" vowel
came from New York through close commercial contact in the early 19th c,
because New York wouldn't have had it to give...

DEJ

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From 10sne1 at SCAN.MISSOURI.ORG  Fri Nov  5 07:05:48 1999
From: 10sne1 at SCAN.MISSOURI.ORG (Kevin Dawson)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:05:48 -0800
Subject: Prejudice based on grammer, diction, or dialect
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.230548.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am trying to do research on linguistic barriers to social and economic advancement .  Do you know of any resources available? If so, what would I need to do to gain access to them?  Thanks very much for any help I can obtain from you.  Sincerely, Laura Chamberlain.  1Osne1 at scan.missouri.org.
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From gbarrett at americandialect.org  Fri Nov  5 12:02:31 1999
From: gbarrett at americandialect.org (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 07:02:31 -0500
Subject: fat-pipe
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.070231.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

Sure. Internet connections are like water. The bigger the pipe,
the more water you can get at once.

Usually, in my experience, used as a noun, "fat pipe," though
the adjective version doesn't seem too novel. Pipe is the key word
here, though compare to "thin client."

I've taken to saying, and I do hope you all will pardon me,
things like, "I'm going to take my PowerBook to campus and suck off
the big Internet tit." I dunno where I picked it up, but I don't
think I made it up.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 16:19:44 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:19:44 EST
Subject: PhiladelphiaRe: Hoosier
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.111944.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm pretty sure that extensive non-rhoticism never caught on in Phildelphia.
Of course, there would have been anglophiles who affected the uppper-crust
accent used by the pretentious in various parts of the US in the 19th century
and on into the 20th century (e.g., wealthy old lady speech of 1930s movies),
but I feel pretty sure that the white vernacular was pretty rhotic.

*****in reply to:
Was the speech of whites of non-Italian ancestry in Philadelphia ever
variably rhotic or non-rhotic?


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Fri Nov  5 16:32:23 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:32:23 -0500
Subject: nits...
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.113223.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET> wrote:

>>>>>
"Ticky" and "nitpicky" were synonyms in 1940's in north Florida.  I did not
know what a nit was until 1948 when I read John Brown's explanation of why
he murdered all the children of slave-owners that he could, "Nits make
gnats."
<<<<<

Hmm, I've heard (or more likely read) the saying as "nits will be lice".
Specifically, a nits is "the egg or young of a parasitic insect, such as a
louse" (_Am.Herit.Dict._). So nit-picking is: going through someone's hair (or
fur), often literally with a fine-tooth comb, and picking out the nits to
prevent a new generation of lice. (As far as I know.)

I've never heard of parasitic gnats; maybe the word was used more loosely, or
(more likely, IMHO) alliteration trumped entomology.

-- Mark


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 16:54:09 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:54:09 EST
Subject: Prejudice based on grammer, diction, or dialect
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.115409.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Somoeone writes:

<<I am trying to do research on linguistic barriers to social and economic
advancement .  Do you know of any resources available? If so, what would I
need to do to gain access to them?  Thanks very much for any help I can
obtain from you.  Sincerely, Laura Chamberlain.  1Osne1 at scan.missouri.org.>>

My answer: yes, I do know a resource. It is called "the library."


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 16:57:58 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:57:58 EST
Subject: Philadelphia
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.115758.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Whose theory was this? I've never heard this before. Since that vowel was (as
I recall) quite prominent in the speech of African-Americans throughout the
South, I've never connected it historically with New York-ese.

*****in reply to:
... the theory that New Orleans' "toity-toid" vowel
came from New York through close commercial contact in the early 19th c,
because New York wouldn't have had it to give...


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 17:00:05 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:00:05 EST
Subject: Books on History of AmE?
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.120005.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'd start with one of the really good books on the history of Engish, e.g.,
Pyles and Algeo, which has extensive teratment of the history of American
English as well as British.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 17:03:05 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:03:05 EST
Subject: "Slept like a baby"
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.120305.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<<   Why is the saying "slept like a baby"?>>

Barry, because babies are innocent, they are not kept awake by guilty
consciences or concupiscent thoughts. Sounds very Wordsworthian.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Nov  5 17:46:34 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:46:34 -0500
Subject: nits...
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.124634.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Parasitic gnats fly in and out of empty spaces in sentences.

dInIs (sorry)

>Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET> wrote:
>
>>>>>>
>"Ticky" and "nitpicky" were synonyms in 1940's in north Florida.  I did not
>know what a nit was until 1948 when I read John Brown's explanation of why
>he murdered all the children of slave-owners that he could, "Nits make
>gnats."
><<<<<
>
>Hmm, I've heard (or more likely read) the saying as "nits will be lice".
>Specifically, a nits is "the egg or young of a parasitic insect, such as a
>louse" (_Am.Herit.Dict._). So nit-picking is: going through someone's hair (or
>fur), often literally with a fine-tooth comb, and picking out the nits to
>prevent a new generation of lice. (As far as I know.)
>
>I've never heard of parasitic gnats; maybe the word was used more loosely, or
>(more likely, IMHO) alliteration trumped entomology.
>
>-- Mark

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov  5 19:02:45 1999
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 14:02:45 -0500
Subject: Philadelphia
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.140245.0500.>

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> Whose theory was this? I've never heard this before. Since that vowel was (as
> I recall) quite prominent in the speech of African-Americans throughout the
> South, I've never connected it historically with New York-ese.
>
> *****in reply to:
> ... the theory that New Orleans' "toity-toid" vowel
> came from New York through close commercial contact in the early 19th c,
> because New York wouldn't have had it to give...

I looked in Dillard's ALL AMERICAN ENGLISH or A HISTORY OF AMERICAN ENGLISH but
couldn't find the discussion I remember; it's in AMERICAN TALK: WHERE OUR WORDS
CAME FROM that he attributes the resemblance to maritime pidgin influence on
both.  See the chapter on "New Orleans and Louisiana" esp. pp. 46ff.

--
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl            tel:
(740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:  (740)
593-2818


From M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu  Fri Nov  5 19:13:54 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 14:13:54 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: General Linguistics position at Baylor U, Waco, TX]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.141354.0500.>

Hi all,

Here's the ad for my job, if anyone would like it.  Although I didn't quite
fit into the religious milieu here, you very well might (active
participation in a Christian church is a job requirement--well, they say
that they are open to Jews as well, but there isn't much evidence for
this).  (Warning:  according to Baylor, Mormons aren't Christians.
Unitarianism doesn't count either.  Both of these are taught in the
Religion Dept class "Contemporary Cults in the US".)  It's a well-endowed
private school, so life can be pretty good here, and the English Dept is
wonderful to the linguists.  Anyone would like more info about the position
can e-mail me privately.

Lynne



> Applications welcome for the following position.  Interviews for
> semi-finalist candidates will be held at the MLA Convention in Chicago
> 27-30 December.  For more information on Linguistics at Baylor, see
> www.baylor.edu/~Linguistics.
>
> Assistant Professor
> A tenure-track position, beginning Fall 2000, Linguistics.  Teaching
> duties may include syntax, semantics/pragmatics, cross-cultural
> linguistics, linguistics and literature.  Demonstrated commitment to
> teaching excellence;  three-course assignment per semester.  Baylor is a
> Baptist University affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of
> Texas.  As an Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity Employer, Baylor
> encourages minorities, women, veterans, and persons with disabilities to
> apply.  To ensure full consideration of your application, it should be
> completed by 13 December 1999.  The position requires a letter of
> application, a c.v. and a dossier including at least three letters of
> recommendation, sent to Maurice Hunt, Chair, Department of English, PO
> Box 97404, Baylor University, Waco, TX 76798-7404.
>

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy

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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 21:26:49 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:26:49 EST
Subject: "Place in history"
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.162649.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PLACE IN HISTORY

   An article in today's NEWS by Robert J. Samuelson (reprinted from the Washington Post), is "History Will Not Be Kind To Clinton."  The article discusses Clinton's "place in history."  (Quotes were used.)
   Maybe someone can do a Nexis search for "place in history."  How often has it been used this year, as opposed to other years?  Who started this "place in history" bit?
   It should be mentioned on the WOTY (Word of the Year) list.

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

   Greetings again from Mexico City.  I fly to the Yucatan tomorrow.
   "Dogi" (dog) is a brand of shoes for children.  I have no idea where the shoes are manufactured, or how long this brand name has been used.
   In an article on Mexico City's smog, NEWS, 5 November 1999, pg. 16, col. 2:  "second generation" pollutants: smog particles thatt settle out of the air but are kicked back into the atmosphere with every breeze.  (I don't know when Barnhart or ATNW added this.  "Second generation pollutants" has been around a while.  No other smog terms, but I'll ask around--ed.)


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Fri Nov  5 21:26:59 1999
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:26:59 -0600
Subject: DARE on sale at Harvard Press
In-Reply-To: <199909151455.KAA18767@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.152659.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thinking of holiday gifts?

The most recent catalog from Harvard University Press--an extension of
their "Big Spring Sale"--offers all three volumes of DARE for $157.50.
(The usual price is $75 per volume.)  This sale goes through February 29,
2000.

You can call toll free at 1-800-726-3244 (all day, every day), but must
mention that DARE is item number 320 on page 35 of the catalog.


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Fri Nov  5 21:42:57 1999
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen Miller)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:42:57 -0500
Subject: Gentleman's "C"
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.164257.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can any one help with this one - I've searched OED, M-W, American Heritage,
D.A.R.E, Random House, Urdang, Morris, Mencken, JSTOR, Lexis-Nexis and Dow
Jones and come up with zippo. I have a total of 38 uses refering to "that
old academic phrase" and what not - but as to how old it is and where it
comes from - I am at a loss. Ivy Leaguers?

Thanks
Katy


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov  5 21:40:07 1999
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:40:07 -0500
Subject: a stocking stuffer
In-Reply-To: <37F4DB22.84D35F77@ark.ship.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.164007.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        It's the time of year again when we must think of holiday gifts for
our loved ones.  No doubt many of you have on your list a
dialectologist with a particularly well-stocked library.  However, he
or she is not likely to have Hillary Clinton's Pen Pal: A Guide to
Life and Lingo in Federal Prison, by Reinhold Amanm, ex-federal
prisoner no. 03873-089.  This is a glossay of prison slang, as
collected by Dr. Aman during during about a year's incarceration,
along with a code of prison etiquette, and is intended as a survival
guide to new prisoners, and is presented as an open letter to Hillary
Clinton, in the expectation that she will require such a guide in a
few years' time.

        The vocabulary includes prison slang, penological jargon and
bureaucratic initialisms.  The definitions are lengthy and
discursive; some are framed so as to be directed toward Clinton
herself.  The compiler is of course the founder and editor of
Maledicta: the International Journal of Verbal Aggression and the
tone of the introduction, glossary and postscript are appropriately
agressive.

        (I'm not recommending this book for its value as a diatribe against
the Clintons; personally I think that Clinton is the greatest
president since Carter and Hillary is beyond question the greatest
president's wife since Mrs. Carter.  I wouldn't put them in the same
ring as the Trumans or the Hoovers, of course.  The Fillmores, maybe.
. . .  But back to our topic.)

        Naturally, most readers will find something offensive in this book,
and many will no doubt find it entirely offensive.  I doubt that Dr.
Aman would have it any other way.  I don't know that any of the slang
is previously unrecorded -- current slang isn't my interest, but many
of the terms were familiar to me.  Regardless, it's worthwhile having
a vocabulary collected at a particular place at a specific time.

        I'm not actually supposing that anyone one on this list will buy
a personal or a gift copy, but the book ought to be more widely
available in libraries than it is.  It's copyright 1996, yet the RLIN
network shows only Harvard, out of no doubt 40 university libraries
in that network, and OCLC shows only 9, including Harvard, again, and
the Bangor, Maine, Public Library, out of many hundreds that use that
list.

        $11.50, from Maledicta Press, P. O. Box 14123, Santa Rosa, Calif.
95402-6123.

        PS: about this time last year I posted a notice about the First New
Haven Slang Dictionary, with the promise that I would soon distribute
information as to how it may be obtained.  Well, I have finally, I
hope, got the rascal treed, and just in time for this Christmas, the
penultimate one of the present century and millenium.  Stay tuned.

GAT


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 22:05:08 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 17:05:08 EST
Subject: nits...
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.170508.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That explanation makes a lot of sense!  I wonder if it is the same nit, as in
"Get right down to the real nitty gritty"? Your explantion of  nitpicking as
'going through hair with a fine-toothed comb, looking for fur,'  might well
fit the definition (at least from my perspective) of the phrase, "nitty
gritty":  "the bare essential; the crux of the matter; the real/true purpose,
goal, intent, or motive."   After picking out the distracting features, one
can uncover the true, or ulterior, motive.  (Or, maybe I am trying to make a
connection that doesn't exist.)
                            PAT


From bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET  Sat Nov  6 05:16:39 1999
From: bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET (Bernard W. Kane)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:16:39 -0500
Subject: gentleman's C
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.001639.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My slang guru, Dr Robert L Chapman, prints it as "by 1940s A satisfactory
rating, but not a high one. [earliest quote I could find for this was from
TIME 12/5/83 but Chap's date can't be off by much] fr the passing but
mediocre grade traditionally given in colleges to well-bred but not serious
students"

Bernie Kane
lurker
dictionary word-finder


From bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET  Sat Nov  6 05:40:37 1999
From: bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET (Bernard W. Kane)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:40:37 -0500
Subject: gentleman's C (part II of message)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.004037.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The text is Harper/Collins Dictionary of American Slang (3rd Ed. 1995)

B Kane


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Nov  6 15:46:18 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:46:18 EST
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.104618.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Someone writes:
<<Yesterday our laminate installer said he'd be on the job today "as soon as
the wife leaves for work." "The wife" has been around for a long time, but
has anyone ever heard "the husband" used the same way?>>

In a recording I made (sociolinguistic interview) I hear the following:

"The husband and daughter has a rabbit project up on the hill. How many's up
there, I don't know. I don't go up there. That's thars."

The recording was made in 1974 in the kitchen of the speaker's farm house
about 30 miles south of Asheville, NC. The speaker had lived in that same
county in NC all her life. This is the first reference in the conversation to
her husband and her daughter, so the "the" is not anaphoric. She only had one
daughter--and the use of "the" rather than "my" actually impliess that,
doesn't it?

Isn't this just the same sort of thing that one gets in an utterance such as
(I'm making this up), e.g., "I ws in a strange city and I went into a church.
The priest was an old man." This implies, to me, that there is only one
priest. For most most Americans, "the wife" and "the husband" are like "the
living room"--we only have one of them, and if we have lived with them for
quite a while, they become unique fictures of our environment. This is why
the Southernism "He's still in the bed" sounds so weird to me--seems to my
Yankee ears to imply that the house has only one bed. (But cf. American "He's
in the hospital.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov  6 16:51:03 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 11:51:03 EST
Subject: McMansions
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.115103.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

McMANSIONS

   From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 5 November 1999, pg. W14, cols. 2-5:

_A Big "McMansion" Attack_
(...) "McMansions"--those huge homes that seem to be swallowing up tiny lots everywhere.

   McMansion is interesting.  McJob is a job that is worthless.  McMansion is something big and fancy.  Most of the people who lives in McMansions don't eat at McDonald's.  In fact, the article states that one owner dines at Le Cirque!

--------------------------------------------------------
GENTLEMAN'S "C"

   George W. Bush couldn't identify those world leaders.  "Gentleman's C" has come up.
   My instincts tell me that it comes from Yale, Harvard, or Princeton.  I'm going with Princeton.
   Several "Major Authors" are online.  The first guy I'd check is F. Scott Fitzgerald.  Even if his entire ouevre isn't online, there are a few scholars who know his stuff backwards and forwards.  Check a book on him, and look up the keyword "Princeton."  Perhaps he used the phrase in the 1930s or 1940s?
   My next guess would be some article in the New Yorker.  I don't know if the New Yorker has an index, but I'd start by looking up the Big Three in the Reader's Guides of 1930-1940...Only then would I hit the Princeton Tiger and the Harvard Lampoon.
   Can this wait a week?

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

   When I get back, I'll do a study of sushi terms such as California Rolls and Philadelphia Rolls (sushi, salmon, cheese), both of which I spotted at a sushi shop in San Miguel.
   Some other drinks I saw there:

Chocolate Russo
Chocolate Irlandes
Cafe Fariseo (Pharisee coffee)
Cafe Holanda (Dutch coffee)


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Sat Nov  6 17:12:09 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:12:09 -0800
Subject: McMansions
In-Reply-To: <0.e89e5915.2555b677@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.091209.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 6 Nov 1999 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> McMANSIONS
>
>    From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 5 November 1999, pg. W14, cols. 2-5:
>
> _A Big "McMansion" Attack_
> (...) "McMansions"--those huge homes that seem to be swallowing up tiny lots everywhere.
>
>    McMansion is interesting.  McJob is a job that is worthless.  McMansion is something big and fancy.  Most of the people who lives in McMansions don't eat at McDonald's.  In fact, the article states that one owner dines at Le Cirque!

I've heard McMansion for a very large, suburban, visually  impressive but
not particularly well-built house in the Seattle area for at least the
last three years.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Nov  6 17:37:25 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:37:25 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.123725.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ron,

Inalienable possession moved to people! Note the variation in "How's
the/your hand?" in doctor talk. (Of course, since both are grammatical, the
variation is everything.)

dInIs



>Someone writes:
><<Yesterday our laminate installer said he'd be on the job today "as soon as
>the wife leaves for work." "The wife" has been around for a long time, but
>has anyone ever heard "the husband" used the same way?>>
>
>In a recording I made (sociolinguistic interview) I hear the following:
>
>"The husband and daughter has a rabbit project up on the hill. How many's up
>there, I don't know. I don't go up there. That's thars."
>
>The recording was made in 1974 in the kitchen of the speaker's farm house
>about 30 miles south of Asheville, NC. The speaker had lived in that same
>county in NC all her life. This is the first reference in the conversation to
>her husband and her daughter, so the "the" is not anaphoric. She only had one
>daughter--and the use of "the" rather than "my" actually impliess that,
>doesn't it?
>
>Isn't this just the same sort of thing that one gets in an utterance such as
>(I'm making this up), e.g., "I ws in a strange city and I went into a church.
>The priest was an old man." This implies, to me, that there is only one
>priest. For most most Americans, "the wife" and "the husband" are like "the
>living room"--we only have one of them, and if we have lived with them for
>quite a while, they become unique fictures of our environment. This is why
>the Southernism "He's still in the bed" sounds so weird to me--seems to my
>Yankee ears to imply that the house has only one bed. (But cf. American "He's
>in the hospital.)

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Nov  6 18:03:01 1999
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:03:01 -0600
Subject: Prejudice based on grammar, diction, or dialect
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.120301.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I could not help noticing the following ADS-L  exchange.

>Someone writes:
>
><<I am trying to do research on linguistic barriers to social and economic
>advancement .  Do you know of any resources available? If so, what would I
>need to do to gain access to them?  Thanks very much for any help I can
>obtain from you.  Sincerely, Laura Chamberlain.  1Osne1 at scan.missouri.org.>>
>
>My answer: yes, I do know a resource. It is called "the library."

-------Surely we at ADS-L  can  provide a more helpful reply.
Specifically,  what books or articles provide an  overall treatment of
linguistic barriers to social and econominc advancement?

---Gerald Cohen




gcohen at umr.edu


From jswkamp at JUNO.COM  Sat Nov  6 17:55:11 1999
From: jswkamp at JUNO.COM (John A Wetenkamp)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:55:11 -0800
Subject: mormons
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.095511.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not interested in the job at Baylor, but I want to make it clear that
Mormons ARE Christians.  The full name of the church is The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Mormon was an ancient prophet of the
American continent who invited all to believe in Christ.  Jesus Christ is
the foundation of the Mormon faith.

jw


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sat Nov  6 17:13:37 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:13:37 -0500
Subject: mormons
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.121337.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----------
>From: John A Wetenkamp <jswkamp at JUNO.COM>


>I'm not interested in the job at Baylor, but I want to make it clear that
>Mormons ARE Christians.  The full name of the church is The Church of
>Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Mormon was an ancient prophet of the
>American continent who invited all to believe in Christ.  Jesus Christ is
>the foundation of the Mormon faith.


I understand that.  What I was saying is that my employer does not accept
that.  They don't think I'm Christian either (I belong to the
Unitarian-Universalist Fellowship here, although I'm also non-practicing
Catholic), which is part of the reason that I am leaving here before tenure
time (the other is that I got a fantastic opportunity to go elsewhere).  The
fact that the Southern Baptists had their annual convention in Salt Lake
City last year and sent Baptist missionaries out into the streets to convert
Mormons is a signal of their attitude.  (I actually come from the birthplace
of Mormonism--Wayne County, New York.  Many school field trips to Joseph
Smith's house and Hill Cumorah!)

I've never drummed up the nerve around here to ask anyone official whether
Branch Davidians are considered Christians.  The administration here is
positive toward Catholics (with the Latino population here, it would be
impolitic not to) and Catholicism is the #2 student (and I believe faculty
too) religion at Baylor.  Nevertheless I've been told many, many times by my
students that "Catholics aren't Christian", "Catholics are going to Hell",
and "Catholics worship the Pope."


Lynne


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Nov  6 18:38:22 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:38:22 -0500
Subject: mormons
In-Reply-To: <01JI0M7FWQUAB0GF5V@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.133822.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:

>Branch Davidians are considered Christians.  The administration here is
>positive toward Catholics (with the Latino population here, it would be
>impolitic not to) and Catholicism is the #2 student (and I believe faculty
>too) religion at Baylor.  Nevertheless I've been told many, many times by my
>students that "Catholics aren't Christian", "Catholics are going to Hell",
>and "Catholics worship the Pope."

How do we Whiskeypalians fare?

Bethany


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sat Nov  6 18:05:13 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:05:13 -0500
Subject: mormons
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.130513.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----------
>From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTK.EDU>
>"
>
>How do we Whiskeypalians fare?
>
>Bethany

OK, I guess.  There are several in my dept, including the chair.  I don't
think the avg student understands how similar Catholics and Episcopalians
are.

The weird thing is that the official Baptist theology rests on "the
priesthood of all men"--meaning that anyone can (and does) found their own
Baptist church, but also meaning that no one's supposed to interpret God for
you, and thus you're supposed to be able to have theological differences
with other Baptists (hence the need for lots of little Baptist churches).
But in practice, Baptist higher-ups are quite happy to tell people what to
believe and not believe and what counts as practicing religion.

My mantra in coming here, to try to ensure an open mind was "Jimmy Carter is
a Southern Baptist, and I respect Jimmy Carter.  Jimmy Carter is a Southern
Baptist, and I respect Jimmy Carter.  Jimmy Carter is..." Growing up, I was
accustomed to the American Baptists whose parsonage we lived next door to
and in whose church basement I went to unilateral disarmament campaign
meetings.  Not finding many Jimmy-Carter-types or
unilateral-disarmament-types here, but there are some.

Now, let's get back to making this a dialectal discussion:

How about that pronunciation 'Babtist'?

When I first got here, I thought it was pejorative.  In fact, it is used
that way by northern  non-Baptists here a lot--"He's not a Baptist
preacher...He's a BABtist preacher!"  (i.e., stereotypical Southern
Baptist--conservative, hellfire-and-brimstone style, with some connotation
of ign'rance.)  Then I started realizing that most (at least Baptist) Texans
just say "Babtist" all the time.  I'm wondering whether there's any semantic
distinction between Babtist and Baptist in the South (i.e., Southern Baptist
vs. American Baptist?), whether it has any socio-economic relevance, and why
dissimilate that P anyway?

Lynne


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Nov  6 19:09:17 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:09:17 -0500
Subject: DARE prices
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.140917.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Before you get too excited about HarvardUP's prices, check out
amazom.com. Each volume is $ 54.60 (+ shipping). So if you need only 1-2
volumes, it'a a much better deal.

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Nov  6 19:11:09 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:11:09 -0500
Subject: mormons
In-Reply-To: <01JI0O0IJ7R6B0ES98@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.141109.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:

>How about that pronunciation 'Babtist'?

I never heard anything else growing up in se texas.

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Nov  6 19:27:47 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:27:47 -0500
Subject: Professional glossaries
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.142747.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For a personal project, I seek to identify 10-12 excellent professional
glossaries. Do you know of any?

Thanks,
Bethany


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Nov  6 21:14:10 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 16:14:10 -0500
Subject: McMansions
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.161410.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

See The Barnhart Dictionary Companion Vol. 10.3 and ATNW Vol. 72.4

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion
www.highlands.com/Lexik


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Sun Nov  7 00:34:09 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 16:34:09 -0800
Subject: Query: Grad Student Seeks Interviewees
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.163409.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This request came into the ADS web site. Please respond directly
to the sender, not to me or the list. This one sounds
interesting.


I am a graduate student at the Columbia University School of
Journalism, and I'm doing my masters project on the New York accent,
how it has changed, its different manifestations, how it's
passed on or lost, etc.

It will be a radio piece (roughly 28 minutes). I'm looking to
speak with (on tape) and/or consult with (off tape) linguists,
speech therapists, voice coaches, people who have gained or lost a NY
accent--in short anyone who might contribute to this piece.

I'll be working on this over the next several months. If you are
interested, please contact me at your earliest convenience.

Alicia B. Zuckerman
abz3 at columbia.edu


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Sun Nov  7 00:47:41 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 18:47:41 -0600
Subject: mormons
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.184741.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I attended Baptist churches all over Florida and Mississippi.  My father, a
Baptist minister, always said {baptist}; everyone else said {babtist}.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bethany K. Dumas <dumasb at UTK.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: mormons


> On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
> >How about that pronunciation 'Babtist'?
>
> I never heard anything else growing up in se texas.
>
> Bethany


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Nov  7 01:03:45 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 20:03:45 EST
Subject: McMansions
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.200345.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The definitive word on the prefix "Mc" is still Roger Shuy's article in
AMERICAN SPEECH a few years back. I think it is a mistake to think that
McDonalds wants us to think of "Mc" as something worthless; it is 'good value
at a good price'--if not very exciting or unusual. Granted, a McJob is a
generic, not-very-exciting job--but it isn't a worthless one. Likewise, a
McMansion is not a worthless mansion, but rather a generic, not-very exciting
mansion.

Monosemy rules! (Ruhls?)

*****in reply to:
McJob is a job that is worthless.  McMansion is something big and fancy.
Most of the people who lives in McMansions don't eat at McDonald's [sic].


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Sun Nov  7 01:10:03 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 19:10:03 -0600
Subject: mormons
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.191003.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The difference between American Baptists and Southern Baptists would depend
upon whether your reference was to the American Baptist Association (found
throughout the South) or the American Baptist Convention (found up north
primarily and in large southern cities who have experienced northern
immigration--used to be the Northern Baptist Convention).
----- Original Message -----
From: Pafra & Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: mormons


> I attended Baptist churches all over Florida and Mississippi.  My father,
a
> Baptist minister, always said {baptist}; everyone else said {babtist}.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bethany K. Dumas <dumasb at UTK.EDU>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 1:11 PM
> Subject: Re: mormons
>
>
> > On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:
> >
> > >How about that pronunciation 'Babtist'?
> >
> > I never heard anything else growing up in se texas.
> >
> > Bethany


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Nov  7 01:18:15 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 20:18:15 EST
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.201815.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Someone writes:
<Now, let's get back to making this a dialectal discussion> and goes on to
discuss pronunciation of BAPTIST.

But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
Clearly, there is a certain subset of relgious persons who use the term
CHRISTIAN to designate only persons whose particular religious views are
very, very close to their own. Others use the term much more ecumenically.
There is also a grey area here, because the former are often given to such
statements as, "To be a Christian, you must accept Jesus Christ as your
personal savior and develop a personal relationship with Jesus." But such
statements in themselves are open to various interpretations. I would expectd
that most devoted Catholics and Mormons feel that they accept Jesus Christ as
their personal savior and have developed a personal relationship with Jesus.

Does Baylor have an official policy statement that says that Mormons are not
Christians, or is the exclusion of Mormons rather based on interpretation of
what it means to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and develop a
personal relationship with Jesus?

This is, it seems to me, an interesting sociolinguistic questions.


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Sun Nov  7 01:37:49 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 19:37:49 -0600
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.193749.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To muddy the sociolinguistic waters, when I was a professor of English and
Modern Languages at a large Fundamentalist university, I attended a French
Institute.  A RC nun in my classes asked me what was our university creed.
I stated, "Our creed is, (and recited the fundamentalist creed)."  Another
Sister came up as I stated, "Our creed is...."  When I finished, the second
Sister exclaimed, "I did not know that you were a professor at a Catholic
university."
----- Original Message -----
From: <RonButters at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 7:18 PM
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians


> Someone writes:
> <Now, let's get back to making this a dialectal discussion> and goes on to
> discuss pronunciation of BAPTIST.
>
> But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of
the
> term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
> Clearly, there is a certain subset of relgious persons who use the term
> CHRISTIAN to designate only persons whose particular religious views are
> very, very close to their own. Others use the term much more ecumenically.
> There is also a grey area here, because the former are often given to such
> statements as, "To be a Christian, you must accept Jesus Christ as your
> personal savior and develop a personal relationship with Jesus." But such
> statements in themselves are open to various interpretations. I would
expectd
> that most devoted Catholics and Mormons feel that they accept Jesus Christ
as
> their personal savior and have developed a personal relationship with
Jesus.
>
> Does Baylor have an official policy statement that says that Mormons are
not
> Christians, or is the exclusion of Mormons rather based on interpretation
of
> what it means to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and develop a
> personal relationship with Jesus?
>
> This is, it seems to me, an interesting sociolinguistic questions.


From keith at blueneptune.com  Sun Nov  7 03:33:59 1999
From: keith at blueneptune.com (Keith Chambless)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 19:33:59 -0800
Subject: mormons
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.193359.0800.>

> fact that the Southern Baptists had their annual convention in Salt Lake
> City last year and sent Baptist missionaries out into the streets to convert
> Mormons is a signal of their attitude.  (I actually come from the birthplace

I must be behind on the news. Weren't they trying to convert
the Jews recently?

Keith


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sun Nov  7 05:48:50 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 00:48:50 -0500
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.004850.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Does Baylor have an official policy statement that says that Mormons are not
>Christians, or is the exclusion of Mormons rather based on interpretation of
>what it means to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and develop a
>personal relationship with Jesus?

The contracts here say something about Jesus, but there is no official list
of "approved" and "unapproved" churches--at least not in the faculty
handbook and such places.  The departments have just learned from experience
which religious affiliations do not pass the administration's muster.

There are other interpretations of "Christian", of course, that do not have
anything to do with "personal relationships" and "personal saviors"...I'm
tempted to say that's a pretty American way of dealing with a deity.

I like to say that I'm a Christian in the same sense that I might (or might
not) be a Marxist or a Chomskyan-- Jesus someone with good ideas that I want
to follow (much more so than Marx or Chomsky, actually).  (Of course, we
could get picky then and say that I must be a Jesusan rather than a
Christian...)

Lynne


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sun Nov  7 05:53:39 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 00:53:39 -0500
Subject: Babtists
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.005339.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was refering to American Baptist Convention versus Southern Baptist
Convention, but we might phrase it in terms of southern Baptists and
northern Baptists--would southern Baptists call northern Baptists "Babtist"?

(And, of course, there are other types of Baptists too, Missionary Baptist,
National Baptist--both of which around here seem to be predominantly
African-American churches.)

Lynne
----------
>From: Pafra & Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: mormons
>Date: Sat, Nov 6, 1999, 8:10 PM
>

>The difference between American Baptists and Southern Baptists would depend
>upon whether your reference was to the American Baptist Association (found
>throughout the South) or the American Baptist Convention (found up north
>primarily and in large southern cities who have experienced northern
>immigration--used to be the Northern Baptist Convention).
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Pafra & Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 6:47 PM
>Subject: Re: mormons
>
>
>> I attended Baptist churches all over Florida and Mississippi.  My father,
>a
>> Baptist minister, always said {baptist}; everyone else said {babtist}.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Bethany K. Dumas <dumasb at UTK.EDU>
>> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 1:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: mormons
>>
>>
>> > On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:
>> >
>> > >How about that pronunciation 'Babtist'?
>> >
>> > I never heard anything else growing up in se texas.
>> >
>> > Bethany


From simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM  Sun Nov  7 13:45:37 1999
From: simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM (beth lee simon)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 08:45:37 -0500
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.084537.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another angle on the use of _Christian_ vis a vis being Catholic:
as a child, Jewish, in Des Moines IA, I heard other Jewish kids use _Christian_
to mean Protestant when distinguishing gentiles, i.e. "So and so is Christian."
"No, she's Catholic."

And sort of conversely, when my mother told me of wanting to go to the
"Christian" school as a child because her best friend did, she meant the Catholic
elementary school.


beth simon
assistant professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
simon at ipfw.edu
or
simon at home2.mysolution.com

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> Someone writes:
> <Now, let's get back to making this a dialectal discussion> and goes on to
> discuss pronunciation of BAPTIST.
>
> But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
> term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
> Clearly, there is a certain subset of relgious persons who use the term
> CHRISTIAN to designate only persons whose particular religious views are
> very, very close to their own. Others use the term much more ecumenically.
> There is also a grey area here, because the former are often given to such
> statements as, "To be a Christian, you must accept Jesus Christ as your
> personal savior and develop a personal relationship with Jesus." But such
> statements in themselves are open to various interpretations. I would expectd
> that most devoted Catholics and Mormons feel that they accept Jesus Christ as
> their personal savior and have developed a personal relationship with Jesus.
>
> Does Baylor have an official policy statement that says that Mormons are not
> Christians, or is the exclusion of Mormons rather based on interpretation of
> what it means to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and develop a
> personal relationship with Jesus?
>
> This is, it seems to me, an interesting sociolinguistic questions.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov  7 14:12:13 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:12:13 -0500
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.091213.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Course Ron is right. How "speech communities" (and couldn't they include
religious groups?) define words is of considerable sociolinguistic
interest.

dInIs

 >Someone writes:
><Now, let's get back to making this a dialectal discussion> and goes on to
>discuss pronunciation of BAPTIST.
>
>But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
>term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
>Clearly, there is a certain subset of relgious persons who use the term
>CHRISTIAN to designate only persons whose particular religious views are
>very, very close to their own. Others use the term much more ecumenically.
>There is also a grey area here, because the former are often given to such
>statements as, "To be a Christian, you must accept Jesus Christ as your
>personal savior and develop a personal relationship with Jesus." But such
>statements in themselves are open to various interpretations. I would expectd
>that most devoted Catholics and Mormons feel that they accept Jesus Christ as
>their personal savior and have developed a personal relationship with Jesus.
>
>Does Baylor have an official policy statement that says that Mormons are not
>Christians, or is the exclusion of Mormons rather based on interpretation of
>what it means to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and develop a
>personal relationship with Jesus?
>
>This is, it seems to me, an interesting sociolinguistic questions.

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Sun Nov  7 14:24:50 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 08:24:50 -0600
Subject: Babtists
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.082450.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: M. Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 11:53 PM
Subject: Babtists


> I was refering to American Baptist Convention versus Southern Baptist
> Convention, but we might phrase it in terms of southern Baptists and
> northern Baptists--would southern Baptists call northern Baptists
"Babtist"?
    Why not?  It's a matter of dialect--not creed.

> (And, of course, there are other types of Baptists too, Missionary
Baptist,
> National Baptist--both of which around here seem to be predominantly
> African-American churches.)

A few decades back, I was doing a paper on Baptists and identified
51 or so Baptist groups in the US--not counting immigrant groups.
They range from the Arminian Baptists and the Seventh-Day Baptists
to the Two Seed in the Spirit Predestinarian Baptists.   Missionary
Baptists are also several European-American churches also; there is
at least one European-American National Baptist group (I have to say
"group" because most, if not almost all, Baptist groups, as a point of
religious conviction, shun use of the word "church" for anything except
a local body of baptized believers.  They use the terms "fellowship,"
"convention," "association," and others of that ilk.
>
> Lynne
> ----------
> >From: Pafra & Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET>
> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >Subject: Re: mormons
> >Date: Sat, Nov 6, 1999, 8:10 PM
> >
>
> >The difference between American Baptists and Southern Baptists would
depend
> >upon whether your reference was to the American Baptist Association
(found
> >throughout the South) or the American Baptist Convention (found up north
> >primarily and in large southern cities who have experienced northern
> >immigration--used to be the Northern Baptist Convention).
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Pafra & Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET>
> >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 6:47 PM
> >Subject: Re: mormons
> >
> >
> >> I attended Baptist churches all over Florida and Mississippi.  My
father,
> >a
> >> Baptist minister, always said {baptist}; everyone else said {babtist}.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Bethany K. Dumas <dumasb at UTK.EDU>
> >> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 1:11 PM
> >> Subject: Re: mormons
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >How about that pronunciation 'Babtist'?
> >> >
> >> > I never heard anything else growing up in se texas.
> >> >
> >> > Bethany


From pds at VISI.COM  Sun Nov  7 21:30:09 1999
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:30:09 -0600
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
In-Reply-To: <0.bd8f42d2.25562d57@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.153009.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
>term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.

In 1964 I overheard the follow interchange between two middle-aged women in
Minneapolis, both members of a Covenant (or Swedish Covenant) church:

"Is she a Christian?"
"No, she's a Methodist."
"Well, at least she's not a Presbyterian."



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sun Nov  7 21:56:11 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:56:11 -0500
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.165611.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The below reminds me of a story that friends at U of S Carolina like to
tell.  They have a friend, a fellow faculty member who is Chinese and
apparently unaccustomed to the American South.  He and his family move into
a middle class neighborhood, and the neighbor lady comes over bearing a pie
or some such thing in order to make their acquaintance:

Neighbor:  So, are you Baptist?
Faculty guy:  No.
N:  Oh, are you Methodist?
FG:  No.
N:  Well then, what ARE you?
FG: I'm a physicist.


----------
>From: Tom Kysilko <pds at VISI.COM>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
>Date: Sun, Nov 7, 1999, 4:30 PM
>

>>But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
>>term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
>
>In 1964 I overheard the follow interchange between two middle-aged women in
>Minneapolis, both members of a Covenant (or Swedish Covenant) church:
>
>"Is she a Christian?"
>"No, she's a Methodist."
>"Well, at least she's not a Presbyterian."
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
>  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM  Sun Nov  7 23:16:58 1999
From: simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM (beth lee simon)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:16:58 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.181658.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has no one done an article on the sociolx of "christian" (as noun and/or
modifier) in AmerEng.? If not, there is clearly at least one out there, waiting.

beth


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov  7 23:07:33 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:07:33 -0500
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.180733.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Reminds me of "bilingual." I once told someone that a buddy of mine was
bilingual (in fact, he was more than that, but bilingual seems to be a kind
of default for multilingual often). The perrson I said this too came back
and told me (a little peeved) that he didn't speak Spanish and was,
therefore, not a bilingual.

dInIs (laying low during these religious wars)

>>But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
>>term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
>
>In 1964 I overheard the follow interchange between two middle-aged women in
>Minneapolis, both members of a Covenant (or Swedish Covenant) church:
>
>"Is she a Christian?"
>"No, she's a Methodist."
>"Well, at least she's not a Presbyterian."
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
>  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sun Nov  7 22:49:04 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 17:49:04 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.174904.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----------
>From: beth lee simon <simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM>

>Has no one done an article on the sociolx of "christian" (as noun and/or
>modifier) in AmerEng.? If not, there is clearly at least one out there, waiting.
>

This is actually on my list of things to do, since I've been working on
other social group labels (race & sexual orientation). Religious labels
bring up some issues that others don't--self-labeling and choice are greater
factors, although many of these labels (and the behaviors that go with them)
are "inherited" from the family (nevertheless, people tend to believe
they've made a choice and that others without the same background
might/should also make the same choice).  I expect that there would be quite
a bit of difference between label semantics for proselytizing and
non-proselytizing groups.

What I am unlikely to do is a survey of many different groups to find out
how they define "Christian" and try to map that.  What I am likely to do is
to concentrate on a few groups (some ingroup, some outgroup) and see how the
word works from their perspectives. I'm particularly interested in looking
at a few cognitive social-psychology hypotheses (discussed in my article
"The Elusive Bisexual" in _Queerly Phrased_) and see whether the religious
labels behave in the ways that they are predicted to behave in terms of
inclusiveness/exclusiveness, polarity, etc.

So, there's lots of work on "Christian" to be done.  I'm not going to get to
this for at least a year, because I'm still obsessed lexical organization.
Nevertheless, I'd love to hear from other people who are working on it to
build up my pre-working bibliography...

Lynne

--
M. Lynne Murphy
Baylor University


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Mon Nov  8 00:26:18 1999
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 19:26:18 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.192618.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Merely a note.  In a capstone business policy course that I teach,
students have to analyze and present case studies about organizations,
usually business organizations.  Some of the available cases contain
some sort of a statement from a prominent person in the organization, to
the end that "we believe in Christian principles" or "we follow a
Christian approach".

>From experience, I know that if I use such a case study, the presenting
group will make an opening statement of the type:  "Since it is a
Christian organization (or, since the CEO is a Christian), we know that
it is an ethical organization.  We have no reason to doubt the
statements of the CEO."  I usually ask if they would identify the
specific set of Christian principles employed by the organization, and
what those principles have to say about profit-making, the treatment of
employees, and whatever.

Basically, the students use the equation:  Christian = all things
good/ethical.  For that matter, I don't care what religious group they
put into the equation, or whatever other group.  I want them to look at
actions, not labels, unless the organization's selection of labels is a
clue, perhaps the only clue, to the understanding of certain other
actions.

I grew up in a family that practiced meatless Fridays, and attended a
conservative Methodist church on Sundays (a bi-religious experience).
Absolutely no faith was permitted to be criticized in my family, but
discussion was allowed.  Thinking back on it, the religious practices of
my many relatives covered all of the Christian religious groups which
have been recently discussed on this list.  When I ask my students what
specific set of principles their study organization is following, I have
solid reasons for doing so.

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Nov  8 04:19:19 1999
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 20:19:19 -0800
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.201919.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

[responding to, among others, ron butters and beth simon on
the sociolinguistics of "christian"...]

this would indeed be a fascinating - and very ambitious -
study, as some of the comments on this topic have already
suggested.  the meaning of "christian" varies enormously
from one social context to another.

in contrast to some of the extremely narrow baptist usages
reported on already (where "christian" seems to take in a
domain very close to the speaker's own beliefs and practices),
there are other contexts where it is used extremly broadly.

in lgb discussion groups on the net - where christianity is
a somewhat problematic identity, and where there are large
numbers of jews and nonbelievers in the conversation - there
is a strong inclination for self-identified christians to
take jesus's teachings of love as the defining characteristic
of christianity.  this makes large numbers of people christians,
or as near as makes no difference; many of these folks object
strenuously to this reclassification.

i have yet to find a context in which people *actually* use
belief in the resurrection of jesus (what i would take to be the
one non-negotiable central tenet of christianity) as the
characteristic distinguishing christians from all the rest.
[by "actually", i mean as a folk definition, not as a technical
definition.]  but perhaps my experience is just not as wide
as it might be.

interestingly, in another of my worlds, that of shapenote
singing (in the Sacred Harp tradition, Denson revision
specifically, for those who know about these subtleties -
note the [non-accidental] parallels to the world of baptist
groups), the issue of who is or is not a christian is deliberately
backgrounded, despite the fact that the tradition has been
intimately associated with primitive baptist and primitive
methodist churches in the rural south for over 150 years.
the texts could not be more explicitly christian - actually,
resurrection and the life hereafter are dominant themes -
and an alternative tradition even uses a book called Christian
Harmony (as opposed to Sacred Harp), and more, but singers
do not question one another on matters of doctrine, or apply
any tests to those who would join in singing; all who would
sing are welcome to join the community.  this means that
nonsouthern groups tend to have lots of nonbelievers, jews,
mormons, unitarian-universalists, roman catholics, etc., and
all these singers are welcome when they go south for singing
conventions.

this extremely generous "christian" tradition coexists with
[to my mind] almost unimaginably narrow definitions of who
counts as "christian" for church-going purposes; the world
of southern shapenote singers shatters into dozens, probably
hundreds, of doctrinally incompatible congregations of
believers.  and on occasion, one of these groups is reluctant
to apply the descriptor "christian" to certain of the others.

arnold  (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Nov  8 17:28:22 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:28:22 -0800
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.092822.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To take another tack on this subject, it is my
understanding (which may be incorrect)that
"christian", or its ancient greek and latin
equivalents, was originally a pejorative that
originated with the establishment and came to refer to
trouble-causing rabble in general, rather than
specifically to followers of Christ, and that the
modern english word "cretin" arises at least in part
from this earlier meaning.  I don't have searchable
text handy, but I believe the word "christian" only
appears a few times in the New Testament, once when
Aggripa told Paul "Almost thou doest persuade me to be
a Christian.", (or something close to that!)

"Mormon" was originally a pejorative and is still
generally avoided in official speaking and writing
originating from the "Mormon" church, "Mormon
Tabernacle Choir" being one of the notable exceptions
to this rule.

JIM

--- beth lee simon <simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM> wrote:
> Has no one done an article on the sociolx of
> "christian" (as noun and/or
> modifier) in AmerEng.? If not, there is clearly at
> least one out there, waiting.
>
> beth
>



=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Nov  8 18:36:01 1999
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:36:01 -0800
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.103601.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

a follow-up on the sociolinguistics of "christian"...

to those who identify as such, being christian is a highly
valued identity, hence one not easily extended to people
who are distant from you in matters of religious practice,
or for that matter, socially distant from you.  in this
respect, being christian is a lot like being white, and
we find the same kind of variation in the use of "white"
as a descriptor.

during the past century in the u.s., jews have become
"white" - and have gotten a kind of honorary christianity
as well, in references to "judeo-christian" values and
traditions - but arabs have not (at least not in folk
usage; the practices of official agencies like the census
bureau and the eoc are another matter).  in the same
period, the irish, italians, and spaniards-from/in-spain
have become "white" (despite their roman catholicism),
but latinos/hispanics/etc. have not (instead, their
differentness has been codified in the official terminology
of race).

local usages of "white" have shifted in ways similar to
local usages of "christian".  linda gordon's The Great
Arizona Orphan Abduction (reviewed by joann wypijewski
in the most recent Lingua Franca) reports a (to me)
bewildering variety of racial classifications in the
arizona of a hundred years ago.  for the purpose of
expelling the chinese from the mines, mexicans and anglos
were grouped together.  but then there were "white man's
camps" - the terminology of the time - which excluded
chinese, mexicans, southern and eastern europeans, but
not blacks; wypijewski provides this marvelous piece
of self-identification from gordon:
  James Young, a black man at the Contention mine
  in nearby Tombstone, remarked 'Si White and I were
  the first white men in Tombstone after Gird and
  Schieffelin.'
[note that one thing the residents of the white man's
camps would have shared was protestant christianity,
probably a rather narrow range of it; those excluded
were "wild", "savage", "backward", "heathen", etc.]

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Mon Nov  8 20:33:04 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:33:04 -0700
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.133304.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was in church yesterday with a friend; I am a regular attendee of this
Assemblies of God church, and my friend has a Catholic and Christian
Orthodox background. The bulletin advertised a membership class that
believers may attend. My friend expressed interest in attending the class,
and I said, "It says there that the class is for believers." He said, "I'm a
believer." I replied, "What they really mean is if you're saved." To me, a
believer was a person who is saved. Of course, the word "saved" opens
another can of worms, but while our theological definitions of "believer"
differ, he agrees that "saved" does not mean "believer," and he recognizes
that he is not saved. Far be it from me to discourage him from attending the
membership class; I only wanted him to understand what the bulletin meant.

This relates to the current Christianity topics because in many sects of
Christianity, you will find that people will define a Christian only as
someone who is saved. For example, a former Catholic schoolmate of mine told
me that one does not have to be Catholic to be Christian. I replied that
being Catholic does not automatically make one a Christian. He disagreed
with me, of course, but my definition differed from his in that being a
church member (any church) does not make one a Christian. By my definition,
Christianity is not something you are born into, such as Judaism or Islam.

Now, the definition of "saved," I'm sure, varies quite a lot between belief
systems. However, it seems that most people recognize the traditional
meaning: one must believe that Jesus Christ is God's son who died for
humankind's lost souls and rose from the grave; one must accept Jesus Christ
into one's life and surrender control to Him; one must confess sins and
display genuine repentance for them.

Does anyone know of instances where that definition is not accepted?

Amy

-----Original Message-----
From: David Bergdahl <bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Christian suggestion


>The anecdote about Christian business practices reminds me of an
>experience I had teaching  Conrad's Heart of Darkness my first
>year--1963--and we naturally explored what it meant for Marlow the
>interior narrator of the tale to be compared to the Buddha.  One student
>volunteered that just because he was a Buddhist that that  didn't mean
>that he wasn't a Christian.  I explained that the Buddhists wouldn't
>probably object to dual loyalties but that Christians certainly would. .
>. but what I didn't understand was that for her Christian merely meant
>"ethical person" and had little if any identification with any
>institution.  In this manner the beginning teacher learns not to confuse
>dictionary citations with what people mean. . .
>____________________________________________________________________
>David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
>tel:  (740) 593-2783
>366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
>(740) 593-2818


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Nov  8 19:14:14 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:14:14 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.141414.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On the mostly Hungarian (but with a smattering of Polish, Italian, Russian,
and Lithuanian) street where I grew up in southern Illinois, our reference
to the English-German-Scots-Irish remainder of the town was to the "white"
people (which we borrowed from their self-reference to distinguish
themselves from us, not Blacks).

Arizona is not the only place where Black and White could be classified
together. The Hawaiian use of "haole" (roughly "non-local") carries
"non-white" racial overtones (making it roughly synonymous with "white")
and therefore made it necessary to refer to "Black haoles" (at least when I
was there in the early 80's).

dInIs (proud but onomastically disguised Hunkey)



 >a follow-up on the sociolinguistics of "christian"...
>
>to those who identify as such, being christian is a highly
>valued identity, hence one not easily extended to people
>who are distant from you in matters of religious practice,
>or for that matter, socially distant from you.  in this
>respect, being christian is a lot like being white, and
>we find the same kind of variation in the use of "white"
>as a descriptor.
>
>during the past century in the u.s., jews have become
>"white" - and have gotten a kind of honorary christianity
>as well, in references to "judeo-christian" values and
>traditions - but arabs have not (at least not in folk
>usage; the practices of official agencies like the census
>bureau and the eoc are another matter).  in the same
>period, the irish, italians, and spaniards-from/in-spain
>have become "white" (despite their roman catholicism),
>but latinos/hispanics/etc. have not (instead, their
>differentness has been codified in the official terminology
>of race).
>
>local usages of "white" have shifted in ways similar to
>local usages of "christian".  linda gordon's The Great
>Arizona Orphan Abduction (reviewed by joann wypijewski
>in the most recent Lingua Franca) reports a (to me)
>bewildering variety of racial classifications in the
>arizona of a hundred years ago.  for the purpose of
>expelling the chinese from the mines, mexicans and anglos
>were grouped together.  but then there were "white man's
>camps" - the terminology of the time - which excluded
>chinese, mexicans, southern and eastern europeans, but
>not blacks; wypijewski provides this marvelous piece
>of self-identification from gordon:
>  James Young, a black man at the Contention mine
>  in nearby Tombstone, remarked 'Si White and I were
>  the first white men in Tombstone after Gird and
>  Schieffelin.'
>[note that one thing the residents of the white man's
>camps would have shared was protestant christianity,
>probably a rather narrow range of it; those excluded
>were "wild", "savage", "backward", "heathen", etc.]
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov  8 19:14:10 1999
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:14:10 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.141410.0500.>

The anecdote about Christian business practices reminds me of an
experience I had teaching  Conrad's Heart of Darkness my first
year--1963--and we naturally explored what it meant for Marlow the
interior narrator of the tale to be compared to the Buddha.  One student
volunteered that just because he was a Buddhist that that  didn't mean
that he wasn't a Christian.  I explained that the Buddhists wouldn't
probably object to dual loyalties but that Christians certainly would. .
. but what I didn't understand was that for her Christian merely meant
"ethical person" and had little if any identification with any
institution.  In this manner the beginning teacher learns not to confuse
dictionary citations with what people mean. . .
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  8 22:13:46 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:13:46 EST
Subject: Mexican proverbs
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.171346.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MEXICAN PROVERBS

    Another tour guide also mentioned the VW-belly button thing.  The rationale is that, in Mexico, a VW is like a belly button--everybody has one.
    There are a lot of young people around, and some of them kiss in public.  My tour guide said that the proverb for this is that the couple is "counting money in front of the poor."

--------------------------------------------------------
McMANSIONS (continued)

   I forgot to add it (sorry!), but Jessie Sheidlower is on record here at ADS-L supporting the adding of "McJobs" to the OED--something that McDonald's helped prevent.  With McMansions coming on strong (as indicated by the WSJ usage), is Jessie gonna get both of them in the OED?

--------------------------------------------------------
FOOD AND DRINK (continued)

   Lipton, Nestea, and Cristal all sell "iced tea" here.  However, at the Cancun airport, the two establishments that sold the product called it "ice tea" on their signs.
   SPAGHETTI ROCKEFELLER--with shrimps, spinach, and holland sauce.
   MAYAN COFFEE--Kahlua, Xtabetun (Mayan liquor), and coconut ice cream.
   HOLIDAY COFFEE--Frengelico, Kahlua, and vanilla ice cream.

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

    Greetings from Merida, Mexico.
    The handpicked guy of the current government won the primary here yesterday.  President Clinton's new corruption act has a loophole that excludes Mexico.  It all means that Americans can continue to expect illegal drugs to come from Mexico for at least the next seven years.
    While at Chichen Itza, I saw a group of kids from Argentina.  It turns out they're in a group called Gordi's Girls, a popular Menudo/Spice Girls knockoff that I'd somehow never heard of. The kids sang and danced their way through Mayan ruins.  I have Uxmal next; maybe it'll have Britney Spears.


From greg at PULLIAM.ORG  Mon Nov  8 22:10:45 1999
From: greg at PULLIAM.ORG (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:10:45 -0600
Subject: born-again (was Christian suggestion)
In-Reply-To: <006f01bf2a28$75a3f100$61b7f7ce@scooby.paradigmtech.com>
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.161045.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is the way I have experienced what we used to call "born-again"
Christians using the term "Christian" lately, also.  When these folks
use the term "Christian," they are excluding members of a vast number
of mainstream denominations--Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans,
most Catholics.

Does anyone use the term "born-again Christian" anymore, or did that
go out with President Carter?  By appropriating the more general term
only for themselves, the Christians-formerly-known-as-born-again
(CFKABA?) have traded a relatively descriptive (albeit kind of
silly-sounding) moniker for a less-descriptive one, possibly in the
hope of having their particular brand of Christianity come to be seen
by the public at large as the default version.

I don't usually fight these sorts of word battles, but I think I'm
going to do what I can in my little corner of the world to hold on to
the term "Christian" for mainstreamers, too.



>This relates to the current Christianity topics because in many sects of
>Christianity, you will find that people will define a Christian only as
>someone who is saved. For example, a former Catholic schoolmate of mine told
>me that one does not have to be Catholic to be Christian. I replied that
>being Catholic does not automatically make one a Christian. He disagreed
>with me, of course, but my definition differed from his in that being a
>church member (any church) does not make one a Christian. By my definition,
>Christianity is not something you are born into, such as Judaism or Islam.
>
>Now, the definition of "saved," I'm sure, varies quite a lot between belief
>systems. However, it seems that most people recognize the traditional
>meaning: one must believe that Jesus Christ is God's son who died for
>humankind's lost souls and rose from the grave; one must accept Jesus Christ
>into one's life and surrender control to Him; one must confess sins and
>display genuine repentance for them.
>
>Does anyone know of instances where that definition is not accepted?
>
>Amy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: David Bergdahl <bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 12:15 PM
>Subject: Re: Christian suggestion
>
>
>  >The anecdote about Christian business practices reminds me of an
>  >experience I had teaching  Conrad's Heart of Darkness my first
>  >year--1963--and we naturally explored what it meant for Marlow the
>  >interior narrator of the tale to be compared to the Buddha.  One student
>  >volunteered that just because he was a Buddhist that that  didn't mean
>  >that he wasn't a Christian.  I explained that the Buddhists wouldn't
>  >probably object to dual loyalties but that Christians certainly would. .
>  >. but what I didn't understand was that for her Christian merely meant
>  >"ethical person" and had little if any identification with any
>  >institution.  In this manner the beginning teacher learns not to confuse
>  >dictionary citations with what people mean. . .
>  >____________________________________________________________________
>  >David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
>  >tel:  (740) 593-2783
>  >366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
>  >(740) 593-2818

-

Greg
greg at pulliam.org


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Mon Nov  8 22:34:53 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:34:53 -0700
Subject: born-again
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.153453.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, "we" also use the term "born-again" to mean saved. In my experience,
they are synonymous. "Born-again" is often used to sound more positive.
Something about it sounds a little more warm and fuzzy than saved. To tell
someone he needs to be saved implies that he is lost. To tell someone he
needs to be born-again implies that he will step from an old way of life to
a new, more positive way of life.

Amy



>This is the way I have experienced what we used to call "born-again"
>Christians using the term "Christian" lately, also.  When these folks
>use the term "Christian," they are excluding members of a vast number
>of mainstream denominations--Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans,
>most Catholics.
>
>Does anyone use the term "born-again Christian" anymore, or did that
>go out with President Carter?  By appropriating the more general term
>only for themselves, the Christians-formerly-known-as-born-again
>(CFKABA?) have traded a relatively descriptive (albeit kind of
>silly-sounding) moniker for a less-descriptive one, possibly in the
>hope of having their particular brand of Christianity come to be seen
>by the public at large as the default version.
>
>I don't usually fight these sorts of word battles, but I think I'm
>going to do what I can in my little corner of the world to hold on to
>the term "Christian" for mainstreamers, too.
>
>
>
>>This relates to the current Christianity topics because in many sects of
>>Christianity, you will find that people will define a Christian only as
>>someone who is saved. For example, a former Catholic schoolmate of mine
told
>>me that one does not have to be Catholic to be Christian. I replied that
>>being Catholic does not automatically make one a Christian. He disagreed
>>with me, of course, but my definition differed from his in that being a
>>church member (any church) does not make one a Christian. By my
definition,
>>Christianity is not something you are born into, such as Judaism or Islam.
>>
>>Now, the definition of "saved," I'm sure, varies quite a lot between
belief
>>systems. However, it seems that most people recognize the traditional
>>meaning: one must believe that Jesus Christ is God's son who died for
>>humankind's lost souls and rose from the grave; one must accept Jesus
Christ
>>into one's life and surrender control to Him; one must confess sins and
>>display genuine repentance for them.
>>
>>Does anyone know of instances where that definition is not accepted?
>>
>>Amy
>>


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Nov  8 22:39:48 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:39:48 -0800
Subject: Christian suggestion
In-Reply-To: <006f01bf2a28$75a3f100$61b7f7ce@scooby.paradigmtech.com>
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.143948.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Amy Speed wrote:

> church member (any church) does not make one a Christian. By my definition,
> Christianity is not something you are born into, such as Judaism or Islam.

My understanding is that one is considered to be Jewish if their parents
or at least their mother is Jewish. They are not exactly born practicing
the religion Judaism, although they can be said to be ethnically Jewish.

The case of Islam is exactly the same as that of Christianity. No one is
born a Muslim, only of parents who are Muslim. And, unlike the case of
Judaism, both "Muslim" and "Christian" imply absolutely no ethnic
identity.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP  Mon Nov  8 22:37:56 1999
From: dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP (Daniel Long)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:37:56 +0900
Subject: foreign accents to dialects
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.073756.0900.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am looking for stuff about "foreign accents" that turned into dialects.   Irish
English, AAVE and Hawaiian English are things that come to mind.   What about
that Iron Range stuff with the th-stopping?   Has that been linked to
Scandanavian immigrant influence?   References would be welcome, as well as info
on languages besides English.

Your Righteous Pen-Pal in a Pagan Land,
Danny Long
--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-426-77-2184
Japanese Language and Literature Dept.    fax  +81-426-77-2140
Tokyo Metropolitan University
1-1 Minami Osawa, Hachioji-shi, Tokyo  192-0397 Japan
mailto:dlong at bcomp.metro-u.ac.jp
http://nihongo.human.metro-u.ac.jp/long/


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Nov  8 22:53:39 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:53:39 -0800
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.145339.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> living room"--we only have one of them, and if we have lived with them for
>  This is why
> the Southernism "He's still in the bed" sounds so weird to me--seems to my
> Yankee ears to imply that the house has only one bed. (But cf. American "He's
> in the hospital.)

But "in the hospital" is an expression, having no bearing on whether there is
one or many area hospital(s).  Not sure if "in the bed" is an expression in your
example.

Perhaps to get away from the connotation of "the" referring to a known hospital,
the English say "in hospital".  It's more of a state, as in "in school" vs. "at
school".  When talking about my father who is a doctor, I don't say, "he's in
the hospital", I say "he's at the hospital".

Pardon, I have vague recollections that this has already been discussed.

Andrea


From MBreland at HLG.EDU  Mon Nov  8 23:10:48 1999
From: MBreland at HLG.EDU (Breland, Mary Beth)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:10:48 -0600
Subject: Babtist
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.171048.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm running a little behind but would like to add my contribution to the
Baptist/Babtist pronunciation thread.

On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:

>How about that pronunciation 'Babtist'?

To which Bethany replied.

I never heard anything else growing up in se texas.


I grew up as the daughter of a Baptist preacher in Mississippi.  We lived in
a community in central Mississippi from 1957-1962 where the pronunciation
for many people was BABuhtis', and people got babuhtized when they got
saved.



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From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Mon Nov  8 23:18:45 1999
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:18:45 -0500
Subject: the last additions to whiting
In-Reply-To: <199910251924.MAA27876@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.181845.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is the last installment of the stuff from my notes in the shape
of proverbs, catchphrases, common expressions, and either not in
B. J. Whiting's various books of such material, or antedating his
earliest record.

1847:   as the showman says, "you pays your money and you takes your
choice"
        Sunday Times and Noah's Weekly Messenger, June 27, 1847, p. 2, col.
3; also ST&NWM, July 18, 1847, p. 2, col. 6

not in DAE; nor Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting: 1869 (Money, #11);
OED?

1821:   [fashionable dress] generally fits them after the manner of a
"purser's shirt upon a handspike!"
        Pierce Egan, Life in London, N. Y.: Appleton, 1904, p. 244.  (Bk 2,
ch. 5)   [This of course in an English source; first publ. 1821.]

1835:   [a man] whose coat fit him like "a purser's shirt on a handspike" . . .
        Morning Herald, July 23, 1835, p. 2, col. 4

not in Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting; nor Whiting, MPPP

1933:   Did you ever drink watermelon buck?  Well, take mah tip, Son, and
don't.  That's the stuff that makes a rabbit look for a dawg.
        Cornelius W. Willemse, A Cop Remembers, N. Y.: E. P. Dutton, 1933,
p. 139.  [Watermelon buck is a drink made from fermented watermelon
juice; sounds ghastly.  The author is attempting to represent AAVE
speech.]

not in Taylor & Whiting; nor Whiting, MPPS

1823:   [Richard] Brown [sentenced to 10 years] said "he did not complain
he had 9 years the full run of the rope."
        National Advocate, December 16, 1823, p. 2, col. 4

not in Whiting, EAPPP; nor Taylor & Whiting

1933:   Every station house had its pet animals.  Dogs and cats were
the usual run of shad. . . .
        Cornelius W. Willemse, A Cop Remembers, N. Y.: E. P. Dutton, 1933, p. 75.

not in Taylor & Whiting; Whiting, MPPS; nor DAE (this figurative
sense); OED?  [I think I recall my mother using this expression, in a
disparaging sense: "Isn't that a nice run of shad", for instance.]

1824:   Got in York safe as a bee in a bucket.
        Simon Snipe, The Sports of New York.  N. Y., 1824, p. 3.

not in Whiting, EAPPP; nor Taylor & Whiting (bee, bucket, safe)

1837:   [The Irishman] was only gammoning the auctioneer, and pitching
into him like a thousand of brick.
        New York Times, August 18, 1837, p. 2, col. 7

1842:   Let me hear any more of you, and I'll walk into you like a thousand of brick.
        The Flash, Vol. 1, #4 (July 10, 1842) p. 1, cols. 2-3

Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting: 1840.  [Three years isn't much of
an antedating, I admit; so sue me.]

1847:   Geo. H. Fielding, being "three shillings short of any change," undertook
to replenish his pockets by robbing his own mother.
        New York Daily Tribune, January 29, 1847, p. 4. col. 1

not in Taylor & Whiting

1821:   Tickle me Billy, and I'll tickle you.  [headline, referring to mutual flattery]
        Commercial Advertiser, March 16, 1821, p. 2, col. 2

1825:   Tickle me Billy, do, do, do
                And in my turn I'll tickle you.
        New-York National Advocate, May 27, 1825, p. 2, col. 3

1842:   tickle me and I'll tickle you
        The Rake, #4, July 9, 1842, p. 2, col. 2.  In NYC Archives, NYC District
Attorney's files, box 410, folder for July 14, 1842

not in Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting; nor Partridge's Catchphrases

GAT


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Nov  8 23:13:12 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:13:12 -0800
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.151312.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

raised Jewish - to me and my family, anyone whose religion involves Jesus Christ
as a major figure is Christian.

Andrea
(who does not have a Christian name)

beth lee simon wrote:
>
> Another angle on the use of _Christian_ vis a vis being Catholic:
> as a child, Jewish, in Des Moines IA, I heard other Jewish kids use _Christian_
> to mean Protestant when distinguishing gentiles, i.e. "So and so is Christian."
> "No, she's Catholic."
>
> And sort of conversely, when my mother told me of wanting to go to the
> "Christian" school as a child because her best friend did, she meant the Catholic
> elementary school.
>
> beth simon
> assistant professor, linguistics and english
> indiana university purdue university
> simon at ipfw.edu
> or
> simon at home2.mysolution.com
>
> RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> > Someone writes:
> > <Now, let's get back to making this a dialectal discussion> and goes on to
> > discuss pronunciation of BAPTIST.
> >
> > But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
> > term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
> > Clearly, there is a certain subset of relgious persons who use the term
> > CHRISTIAN to designate only persons whose particular religious views are
> > very, very close to their own. Others use the term much more ecumenically.
> > There is also a grey area here, because the former are often given to such
> > statements as, "To be a Christian, you must accept Jesus Christ as your
> > personal savior and develop a personal relationship with Jesus." But such
> > statements in themselves are open to various interpretations. I would expectd
> > that most devoted Catholics and Mormons feel that they accept Jesus Christ as
> > their personal savior and have developed a personal relationship with Jesus.
> >


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  8 23:31:06 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:31:06 EST
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.183106.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is--for me--a really constructive elaboration in the discussion. Yes,
the concept of "saved" seems to be more important than what I said earlier
(e.g., "have a personal realtionship with Jesus"). Still, the definition of
SAVED given below doesn't strike me as different from anything that a
Catholic or a Mormon would not agree to. So where is the essence?

Let me reiterate that I don't see this as a theological discussion but a
sociolinguistic one. That is, I am not interested in the theological
relevance of the responses, but rather how the religious responses correlate
with the treminology.


In a message dated 11/8/1999 5:20:02 PM, speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM writes:

<< I was in church yesterday with a friend; I am a regular attendee of this

Assemblies of God church, and my friend has a Catholic and Christian

Orthodox background. The bulletin advertised a membership class that

believers may attend. My friend expressed interest in attending the class,

and I said, "It says there that the class is for believers." He said, "I'm a

believer." I replied, "What they really mean is if you're saved." To me, a

believer was a person who is saved. Of course, the word "saved" opens

another can of worms, but while our theological definitions of "believer"

differ, he agrees that "saved" does not mean "believer," and he recognizes

that he is not saved. Far be it from me to discourage him from attending the

membership class; I only wanted him to understand what the bulletin meant.


This relates to the current Christianity topics because in many sects of

Christianity, you will find that people will define a Christian only as

someone who is saved. For example, a former Catholic schoolmate of mine told

me that one does not have to be Catholic to be Christian. I replied that

being Catholic does not automatically make one a Christian. He disagreed

with me, of course, but my definition differed from his in that being a

church member (any church) does not make one a Christian. By my definition,

Christianity is not something you are born into, such as Judaism or Islam.


Now, the definition of "saved," I'm sure, varies quite a lot between belief

systems. However, it seems that most people recognize the traditional

meaning: one must believe that Jesus Christ is God's son who died for

humankind's lost souls and rose from the grave; one must accept Jesus Christ

into one's life and surrender control to Him; one must confess sins and

display genuine repentance for them.


Does anyone know of instances where that definition is not accepted?


Amy

 >>


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Mon Nov  8 23:22:33 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:22:33 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.182233.0500.>

Andrea, would you address this state of being vs. location phenomenon in regards to
higher education?  I'm thinking of the British "at university" vs. the more
American "in college."  Or have I got it wrong?

"A. Vine" wrote:

> But "in the hospital" is an expression, having no bearing on whether there is
> one or many area hospital(s).  Not sure if "in the bed" is an expression in your
> example.
>
> Perhaps to get away from the connotation of "the" referring to a known hospital,
> the English say "in hospital".  It's more of a state, as in "in school" vs. "at
> school".  When talking about my father who is a doctor, I don't say, "he's in
> the hospital", I say "he's at the hospital".
>
> Pardon, I have vague recollections that this has already been discussed.
>
> Andrea

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                         "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  8 23:50:26 1999
From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:50:26 PST
Subject: Missing Characters in NADS Abstract
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.155026.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Would Beverly Flanigan mind posting a version of the abstract for "Don or
Dawn?..." which includes the IPA symbols missing from the newsletter? There
seems to be at least one vowel that is coming through as a blank space.

Also, what symbol does [A] represent -- is it a rounded low back vowel
(upside-down-script-a) or an unrounded low back vowel (script-a)? I would
have thought unrounded, except that in Naomi Nagy's abstract, [A] is used
for Boston's low-back cot/caught vowel, generally written as rounded.

Incidentally, would it be so difficult to print the newsletter in a font
containing at least the more usual phonetic symbols?

DEJ

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Nov  9 02:13:51 1999
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:13:51 -0700
Subject: Gore as Blakean
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.191351.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My father-in-law emailed me this AM to report that on This Week (w/ Cokie
Roberts, Sam Donaldson, Geo. Will),  Will questioned Naomi Wolf (who just
became a Gore campaign consultant) about her characterization of Al Gore as
"Blakean."

Did anyone here see this and have any idea what they were talking about?
What constitutes a Blakean personality? Please don't tell me it refers to an
unappreciated, misunderstood genius.

Gareth Branwyn
Jargon Watch Editor
Wired


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 00:30:32 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:30:32 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.193032.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

4409 Copperhill Drive, Okemos MI 48864

>I was in church yesterday with a friend; I am a regular attendee of this
>Assemblies of God church, and my friend has a Catholic and Christian
>Orthodox background. The bulletin advertised a membership class that
>believers may attend. My friend expressed interest in attending the class,
>and I said, "It says there that the class is for believers." He said, "I'm a
>believer." I replied, "What they really mean is if you're saved." To me, a
>believer was a person who is saved. Of course, the word "saved" opens
>another can of worms, but while our theological definitions of "believer"
>differ, he agrees that "saved" does not mean "believer," and he recognizes
>that he is not saved. Far be it from me to discourage him from attending the
>membership class; I only wanted him to understand what the bulletin meant.
>
>This relates to the current Christianity topics because in many sects of
>Christianity, you will find that people will define a Christian only as
>someone who is saved. For example, a former Catholic schoolmate of mine told
>me that one does not have to be Catholic to be Christian. I replied that
>being Catholic does not automatically make one a Christian. He disagreed
>with me, of course, but my definition differed from his in that being a
>church member (any church) does not make one a Christian. By my definition,
>Christianity is not something you are born into, such as Judaism or Islam.
>
>Now, the definition of "saved," I'm sure, varies quite a lot between belief
>systems. However, it seems that most people recognize the traditional
>meaning: one must believe that Jesus Christ is God's son who died for
>humankind's lost souls and rose from the grave; one must accept Jesus Christ
>into one's life and surrender control to Him; one must confess sins and
>display genuine repentance for them.
>
>Does anyone know of instances where that definition is not accepted?
>
>Amy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: David Bergdahl <bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 12:15 PM
>Subject: Re: Christian suggestion
>
>
>>The anecdote about Christian business practices reminds me of an
>>experience I had teaching  Conrad's Heart of Darkness my first
>>year--1963--and we naturally explored what it meant for Marlow the
>>interior narrator of the tale to be compared to the Buddha.  One student
>>volunteered that just because he was a Buddhist that that  didn't mean
>>that he wasn't a Christian.  I explained that the Buddhists wouldn't
>>probably object to dual loyalties but that Christians certainly would. .
>>. but what I didn't understand was that for her Christian merely meant
>>"ethical person" and had little if any identification with any
>>institution.  In this manner the beginning teacher learns not to confuse
>>dictionary citations with what people mean. . .
>>____________________________________________________________________
>>David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
>>tel:  (740) 593-2783
>>366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
>>(740) 593-2818

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  9 00:29:29 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:29:29 EST
Subject: Gore as Blakean
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.192929.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is she talking about the poet William Blake? He used to sit around in the
back yard naked (with his wife)--this was in the early 1800s, much to
everyone's scandalation. And he wrote Tiger Triger Burning Bright. Doesn't
sound like the Al Gore I know and love.

Has anyone suggested that Al Gore has adopted the previous vice president's
political sensibility?


In a message dated 11/8/1999 8:19:35 PM, garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET writes:

<< My father-in-law emailed me this AM to report that on This Week (w/ Cokie

Roberts, Sam Donaldson, Geo. Will),  Will questioned Naomi Wolf (who just

became a Gore campaign consultant) about her characterization of Al Gore as

"Blakean."


Did anyone here see this and have any idea what they were talking about?

What constitutes a Blakean personality? Please don't tell me it refers to an

unappreciated, misunderstood genius.


Gareth Branwyn

Jargon Watch Editor

Wired >>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  9 00:31:31 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:31:31 EST
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.193131.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If Jesus is the answer, is Dennis Preston's home address the question?????


In a message dated 11/8/1999 8:26:11 PM, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:

<< 4409 Copperhill Drive, Okemos MI 48864 >>


From GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA  Tue Nov  9 00:23:34 1999
From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA (No Name Available)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:23:34 PST
Subject: Christian suggestion
In-Reply-To: <199911080419.UAA11337@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.162334.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In all this discussion of "Who's a Christian? " you might enjoy this anecdote:

A couple of years ago, my stepdaughter,  who is an elder in the Christian
Reformed Church (an offshoot of Dutch Reformed), was staying with us, and left
her Bible on the bedside table. My cleaning lady, having dusted my Book of
Common Prayer every week for several months, said,  "Oh, I see your sleep-
over's a Christian." I'm stil wondering what that makes  li'l ol' Anglican
me?

Barbara Harris.


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Nov  9 02:32:21 1999
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:32:21 -0700
Subject: Gore as Blakean
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.193221.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oh they were most definitely referring to William Blake. At least I assumed
they were.

-----Original Message-----
From: RonButters at AOL.COM <RonButters at AOL.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Gore as Blakean


>Is she talking about the poet William Blake? He used to sit around in the
>back yard naked (with his wife)--this was in the early 1800s, much to
>everyone's scandalation. And he wrote Tiger Triger Burning Bright. Doesn't
>sound like the Al Gore I know and love.
>
>Has anyone suggested that Al Gore has adopted the previous vice president's
>political sensibility?
>
>
>In a message dated 11/8/1999 8:19:35 PM, garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET writes:
>
><< My father-in-law emailed me this AM to report that on This Week (w/
Cokie
>
>Roberts, Sam Donaldson, Geo. Will),  Will questioned Naomi Wolf (who just
>
>became a Gore campaign consultant) about her characterization of Al Gore as
>
>"Blakean."
>
>
>Did anyone here see this and have any idea what they were talking about?
>
>What constitutes a Blakean personality? Please don't tell me it refers to
an
>
>unappreciated, misunderstood genius.
>
>
>Gareth Branwyn
>
>Jargon Watch Editor
>
>Wired >>
>


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 00:48:49 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:48:49 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.194849.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, it was the answer to the question about where the definition given of
"saved" might not fly.

>If Jesus is the answer, is Dennis Preston's home address the question?????
>
>
>In a message dated 11/8/1999 8:26:11 PM, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:
>
><< 4409 Copperhill Drive, Okemos MI 48864 >>

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Mon Nov  8 22:49:40 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:49:40 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.174940.0500.>

"A. Maberry" wrote:The case of Islam is exactly the same as that of
Christianity. No one is

> born a Muslim, only of parents who are Muslim. And, unlike the case of
> Judaism, both "Muslim" and "Christian" imply absolutely no ethnic
> identity.
>

An ex of mine was a Lutheran of German-Norwegian (Illinois-N. Dakota) stock,
who, whenever she saw a Jello salad would gesture boldly and exclaim "Behold!
The food of my people!"  This joke got started because of the ubiquitous jello
salads at Lutheran "covered dish" (i.e., potluck) suppers in that part of the
country.  So, perhaps one can be a little bit culturally Lutheran, if not
ethnically so.

Several people  I know and I refer to ourselves as "culturally Catholic".
(Others refer to themselves as "recovering Catholics", of course.)  The idea
behind cultural Catholicism is kind of like ethnic Judaism--we were brought up
with ritual, righteous guilt, mysteries, and such that we're not altogether sure
that we want to get rid of.  Be an atheist?  That's fine.  But give up icons and
incense and Latin?  Well, that's a bit harder.  They're so cool...

I've also been trying to popularize the term "apathetic" as a religious term on
the model of "agnostic" and "atheist".  An apathetic is a person who doesn't
care whether there's a god.

Apathetically yours,
Lynne, who only sings the Latin verses of Christmas carols 'cause they're
prettier and more mysterious

P.S. A guy in my Unitarian-Universalist fellowship has a bumpersticker I like:
"MILITANT AGNOSTIC--I don't know and neither do you!"

P.P.S.  I find it appropriate that we're having this discussion at a time when
the Pope is angering all of South Asia.  His message that we should celebrate
all religions, but convert their members is the kind of thing that would make
me  write "LOGIC!" in the margins of a freshman paper.

P.P.S.  Ok, I'll shut up now...


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Nov  9 00:38:26 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:38:26 -0800
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.163826.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi Bob (couldn't resist, take a drink),

I would agree that "in college" is a state along the same lines as "in the
hospital".  The many professors on this list may be "at the college", but I
suspect few of them are "in college".  Then again, they can't be "at college"
either, because you can only be "at college" when you're "in college".

Or is this just me?

Reminds me of some list of college student terms I remember reading awhile
back.  The term that got me was "home home", which means where one's family
lives, as opposed to one's dorm room or apartment.

Andrea

Bob Haas wrote:
>
> Andrea, would you address this state of being vs. location phenomenon in regards to
> higher education?  I'm thinking of the British "at university" vs. the more
> American "in college."  Or have I got it wrong?
>
> "A. Vine" wrote:
>
> > But "in the hospital" is an expression, having no bearing on whether there is
> > one or many area hospital(s).  Not sure if "in the bed" is an expression in your
> > example.
> >
> > Perhaps to get away from the connotation of "the" referring to a known hospital,
> > the English say "in hospital".  It's more of a state, as in "in school" vs. "at
> > school".  When talking about my father who is a doctor, I don't say, "he's in
> > the hospital", I say "he's at the hospital".
> >
> > Pardon, I have vague recollections that this has already been discussed.
> >
> > Andrea
>
> --
>
> Bob Haas
> Department of English
> High Point University
> University of North Carolina at Greensboro
>
>                          "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  9 00:54:07 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:54:07 EST
Subject: Mexican elections, sandwiches
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.195407.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MEXICAN ELECTIONS (continued)

   These aren't English words, perhaps, but they were in the Miami Herald's Cancun edition.
   "Dedazo" is the tap of the finger.  The current president of Mexican has fingered his successor (who won yesterday{s election).  This is also called "the charge" (la cargata?).

--------------------------------------------------------
MEXICAN SANDWICHES

   This is the menu from a sandwich chain called La Sandwicheria:

CLASICO--jamon, pollo, queso manchego, pimiento, ceballo
ESPECIAL--jamon, salami, pavo, q. mozarela, tomate, lechuga, ceb., aceituna
PIZZA--salami, champinones, q. mozarela, salsa de tomate
TUNA MELT
PEPITO--filete de res, frijol, guacamole, tomate
STROGANOFF
BBQ
YUCATECO--lomo de puerco, q. manchego, salsa de tomate, hueva
TRADICIONAL--pollo, heuva, queso manchego, aguacate
SOFIA--pollo, tocino, queso crema, queso amarillo}SUPREMO--pechuga de pava, salsa de champinones
POBLANO--rajas de chile poblano, queso panela, crema, elote, cebolla
VEGETARIANO
CAJUN
BURGER


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Tue Nov  9 00:53:16 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:53:16 -0500
Subject: born-again (was Christian suggestion)
In-Reply-To: <v0422080ab44cf42a4fda@[216.47.144.24]>
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.195316.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Greg Pulliam wrote:

>This is the way I have experienced what we used to call "born-again"
>Christians using the term "Christian" lately, also.  When these folks
>use the term "Christian," they are excluding members of a vast number
>of mainstream denominations--Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans,
>most Catholics.

So "Christian" has something in common with "catholic," a term
often co-opted by Roman Catholics?

Bethany


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Nov  9 02:22:53 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:22:53 -0800
Subject: Christian suggestion
In-Reply-To: <38275383.C87F72AF@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.182253.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> "A. Maberry" wrote:The case of Islam is exactly the same as that of
> Christianity. No one is
>
> > born a Muslim, only of parents who are Muslim. And, unlike the case of
> > Judaism, both "Muslim" and "Christian" imply absolutely no ethnic
> > identity.
> >
>
> An ex of mine was a Lutheran of German-Norwegian (Illinois-N. Dakota) stock,
> who, whenever she saw a Jello salad would gesture boldly and exclaim "Behold!
> The food of my people!"  This joke got started because of the ubiquitous jello
> salads at Lutheran "covered dish" (i.e., potluck) suppers in that part of the
> country.  So, perhaps one can be a little bit culturally Lutheran, if not
> ethnically so.

I am myself a mostly "German-Norwegian" and more or less of a Lutheran by
training (mostly less), but since I grew up in the Pacific Northwest I
missed out on virtually all of the "Lutheran culture". I associate jello
salads with the midwest generally not specifically Lutherans. I would
imagine Methodist picnics with plenty of "hot dishes and jello salads."
However I *have* heard Campbell's Cream of Mushroom soup refered to
as "Lutheran binder" for cooking purposes.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu
who has learned more about Lutheran
culture and Lutherans from Garrison
Keillor than he ever did in church.


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Tue Nov  9 02:28:52 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:28:52 -0700
Subject: Christian suggestion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.10.9911081813190.29279-100000@saul5.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.192852.0700.>

My mother's family is Norwegian-Lutheran, and jell-o salads are definitely
part of that culture. Woe to the odd family member who dislikes jell-o! No
one knows more recipes for jell-o than a Lutheran from the Midwest.

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of A. Maberry
Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 7:23 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Christian suggestion


On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> "A. Maberry" wrote:The case of Islam is exactly the same as that of
> Christianity. No one is
>
> > born a Muslim, only of parents who are Muslim. And, unlike the case of
> > Judaism, both "Muslim" and "Christian" imply absolutely no ethnic
> > identity.
> >
>
> An ex of mine was a Lutheran of German-Norwegian (Illinois-N. Dakota)
stock,
> who, whenever she saw a Jello salad would gesture boldly and exclaim
"Behold!
> The food of my people!"  This joke got started because of the ubiquitous
jello
> salads at Lutheran "covered dish" (i.e., potluck) suppers in that part of
the
> country.  So, perhaps one can be a little bit culturally Lutheran, if not
> ethnically so.

I am myself a mostly "German-Norwegian" and more or less of a Lutheran by
training (mostly less), but since I grew up in the Pacific Northwest I
missed out on virtually all of the "Lutheran culture". I associate jello
salads with the midwest generally not specifically Lutherans. I would
imagine Methodist picnics with plenty of "hot dishes and jello salads."
However I *have* heard Campbell's Cream of Mushroom soup refered to
as "Lutheran binder" for cooking purposes.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu
who has learned more about Lutheran
culture and Lutherans from Garrison
Keillor than he ever did in church.


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov  9 02:56:04 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:56:04 -0500
Subject: Gore as Blakean
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.215604.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

>Did anyone here see this and have any idea what they were talking about?
>What constitutes a Blakean personality? Please don't tell me it refers to an
>unappreciated, misunderstood genius.

Transcript can be found at

http://abcnews.go.com/onair/thisweek/transcripts/tw991107_naomiwolf_trans.html

For the record here's a significant portion (hard to quote the right bit in a
transcript):


WILL: Well this is about, as you say, how Al Gore’s mind works. You say that deep
inside he’s a Blakian, you’re referring to the mystical poet who saw the world in a
grain of sand. Tell us what it means for Al Gore to be a Blakian.”

WOLF: I can’t believe — I’m pleased, but I can’t believe that this early in the
morning on this show, we’re talking about 19 century romantic and mystical poets.

WILL: We’re not and it’s not literature.

WOLF: Pardon me?

WILL: We’re very literate.

WOLF: Very literate, it’s true.

DONALDSON: Some of us are.

ROBERTS: “Tiger, tiger, burning bright.” We can do Blake.

WOLF: What I’m talking about is a vision that incorporates many disparate parts for
a whole that’s more than the sum of its parts. Again, look at his positions that he’s
laid out already.
     And in all of the brue-ha-ha over details that I think are not that important
to the American people, there is something very consistent and coherent that he’s been
doing with that mind, that sees different parts and how they can fit together to
solve complicated problems.
    His family, working family’s policies — there are many, many disparate elements.
Some seem really small, how do you get working parents home in time so that they
have a chance to read a bedtime story to their kids.
     Well, that has to do with a whole way that we’ve developed that is not so good
for working families, all the way to minimum wage issues, benefits, labor issues,
after school programs. Who’s taking care of kids after school between 3:00 and 6:00?


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Nov  9 03:22:33 1999
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:22:33 -0600
Subject: Gore as Blakean
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.212233.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  In response to the question about Albert Gore being labeled "Blakean" by
Naomi Wolf:

    I saw the program in which George Will asked Naomi Wolf what she meant
by describing Gore as Blakean in one of her writings.  I listened carefully
but was unable to fully understand  her reply.  It had something to do with
Blake's mind being able to grasp complexities and nuances, and Gore
presumably being able to do the same.

     On a general note, what struck me most about  Ms. Wolf is that she  is
pretty free and loose in her use of written langauge--as when she once
wrote about Al Gore having "goofy" ideas, when  she merely meant  that
those ideas  are  a bit ahead of their time.   As a result, when she was
questioned about the meaning of some of her statements, she repeatedly fell
back on saying that their meaning was being "twisted" or  that the
statements were "taken out of context."

-----Gerald Cohen









>My father-in-law emailed me this AM to report that on This Week (w/ Cokie
>Roberts, Sam Donaldson, Geo. Will),  Will questioned Naomi Wolf (who just
>became a Gore campaign consultant) about her characterization of Al Gore as
>"Blakean."
>
>Did anyone here see this and have any idea what they were talking about?
>What constitutes a Blakean personality? Please don't tell me it refers to an
>unappreciated, misunderstood genius.
>
>Gareth Branwyn
>Jargon Watch Editor
>Wired



gcohen at umr.edu


From bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET  Tue Nov  9 04:40:39 1999
From: bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET (Bernard W. Kane)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:40:39 -0500
Subject: 1) orthography and 2) new coinage
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.234039.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

1) properly, brouhaha. Restraining myself mightily to keep from commenting
on M-W's misguided etymology of this.
2) attempt to launch "Nantucket Triangle" only partly successful (as well as
in poor taste, considering dreadful loss of lives):
"There will probably be no clear verdict for months on what caused the
demise of EgyptAir 990. That uncomfortable reality left many seeking
explanations that sometimes bordered on the absurd. EgyptAir chairman
Mohammed Fahim Rayan seemed ready to subscribe to a 'new Bermuda Triangle
theory'--namely that there is a curse on aircraft traveling up the Eastern
seaboard of the U.S., a graveyard that now contains the remains not only of
John F. Kennedy Jr. but also of some of the passengers and crew aboard TWA
Flight 800. No less than Mubarak himself seemed taken with the theory,
urging the U.S. to investigate 'something in the atmosphere, something in
the weather.' For many, that explanation was better than none at all."

"Out of Thin Air"
Nadya Labi
TIME
Vol. 154 No. 20
November 15, 1999
p. 56 col. 3

Remember: you read it here first.

Bernie Kane
word person
mailto:bkane at tigger.jvnc.net


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov  9 04:52:34 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:52:34 -0500
Subject: cafeteria Catholics
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.235234.0500.>

Continuing on our discussion of religion, the cover story on Tuesday's
Salon (www.salon.com) is about Kevin Smith's new film _Dogma_, which the
Catholic League is protesting.  Here's a bit quoting some of the
Catholic League people, but there's lots more interesting usage of
religious terms in the article:


                                But it's still hard to understand why
Smith's movie -- or any work of any sort --
                                shouldn't be taken by Catholics on its
own terms. (To his credit, even Pat
                                Buchanan dropped into the Brooklyn Art
Museum last week to see Ofili's
                                painting. He decided it was offensive --
but noted that his training as a journalist
                                required that he see it for himself
before making any pronouncement.) When I
                                mentioned to both Donohue and McCloskey
that Kevin Smith says he is a
                                practicing Catholic -- noting that
they'd probably consider him a "cafeteria
                                Catholic," one who picks and chooses
from among the doctrines -- they both
                                dismissed his claim out of hand. "A
cafeteria Catholic is basically a person who's
                                saying that their Catholicism is their
own," McCloskey explains. "But it's not the
                                church's. And the definition of that is
the Protestant."

Lynne

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  9 08:16:00 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 03:16:00 EST
Subject: born-again
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.031600.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Born again" is often used in conjunction with the biblical verse, 'for we
have all sinned and come short of the glory of God.'  "Born again," then, is
an acknowledgment of this shortcoming, an admittance that we have "backslid."
  However, it further indicates that we have seen the "error of our ways,"
that we have "confessed with our mouths," and that our sins have been
forgiven.  Thus, our slates have been wiped clean, and we are, once again,
"on the road to Salvation."
                        PAT


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Tue Nov  9 08:08:15 1999
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 00:08:15 -0800
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
In-Reply-To: <38275908.792487B9@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.000815.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>raised Jewish - to me and my family, anyone whose religion involves Jesus
>Christ
>as a major figure is Christian.
>
>Andrea

What she says...

Rima


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  9 08:45:25 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 03:45:25 EST
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.034525.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 I guess I see the difference between "in college/the hospital/the
house/school" and "at (the) college/the hospital/the house/school" as an
aspectual issue.  "in (the) __" represents longer duration, covering a much
longer period of time than does "at (the) _," which indicates shorter periods
of time.  Maybe it's the difference between a continuous (stative) and
continual (repetitive) situation.
                                PAT


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Nov  9 10:29:17 1999
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 05:29:17 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.052917.0500.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: Christian suggestion


>I've also been trying to popularize the term "apathetic" as a religious
term on
>the model of "agnostic" and "atheist".  An apathetic is a person who
doesn't
>care whether there's a god.


I've been using 'apatheist' for that...

bkd


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 12:37:45 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:37:45 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.073745.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ain't we done this duplication = "authentic, etc..." before (outside
college talk)? Recall the old TV ad where a couple argue about an air
condiitioner (actually some sort of air freshener), which ends with the
memorable line: "It's not an air conditioner air conditioner, it's an air
conditioner air conditioner."

dInIs dInIs


>Hi Bob (couldn't resist, take a drink),
>
>I would agree that "in college" is a state along the same lines as "in the
>hospital".  The many professors on this list may be "at the college", but I
>suspect few of them are "in college".  Then again, they can't be "at college"
>either, because you can only be "at college" when you're "in college".
>
>Or is this just me?
>
>Reminds me of some list of college student terms I remember reading awhile
>back.  The term that got me was "home home", which means where one's family
>lives, as opposed to one's dorm room or apartment.
>
>Andrea
>
>Bob Haas wrote:
>>
>> Andrea, would you address this state of being vs. location phenomenon in
>>regards to
>> higher education?  I'm thinking of the British "at university" vs. the more
>> American "in college."  Or have I got it wrong?
>>
>> "A. Vine" wrote:
>>
>> > But "in the hospital" is an expression, having no bearing on whether there
>>is
>> > one or many area hospital(s).  Not sure if "in the bed" is an expression
>>in your
>> > example.
>> >
>> > Perhaps to get away from the connotation of "the" referring to a known
>>hospital,
>> > the English say "in hospital".  It's more of a state, as in "in school"
>>vs. "at
>> > school".  When talking about my father who is a doctor, I don't say, "he's
>>in
>> > the hospital", I say "he's at the hospital".
>> >
>> > Pardon, I have vague recollections that this has already been discussed.
>> >
>> > Andrea
>>
>> --
>>
>> Bob Haas
>> Department of English
>> High Point University
>> University of North Carolina at Greensboro
>>
>>                          "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 13:16:37 1999
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:16:37 -0600
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.071637.0600.>

Bruce Dykes wrote:

> From: Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu>

>>I've also been trying to popularize . . . "apathetic" as a religious
>>term on the model of "agnostic" and "atheist".  An apathetic is a person
>>who doesn't care whether there's a god.

> I've been using 'apatheist' for that...

> bkd

Sounds sort of like my way of declining a proffered cup of coffee:
"Sorry,
my religion doesn't let me drink coffee.  You see, I'm an Orthodox
Hedonist
and coffee gives me no pleasure."

I never figured out how coffee could smell so good and taste so bad.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

P.S.: Lynne and Bruce, "apatheist" is not quite the term that first
comes to
mind.  I have friends who are "constipationists": they just don't give a
s...


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 12:38:36 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:38:36 -0500
Subject: Mexican elections, sandwiches
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.073836.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is Barry's Spanish better than we think, and is he pulling our legs with
this "cargata"?

dInIs

>MEXICAN ELECTIONS (continued)
>
>   These aren't English words, perhaps, but they were in the Miami Herald's
>Cancun edition.
>   "Dedazo" is the tap of the finger.  The current president of Mexican has
>fingered his successor (who won yesterday{s election).  This is also called
>"the charge" (la cargata?).
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>MEXICAN SANDWICHES
>
>   This is the menu from a sandwich chain called La Sandwicheria:
>
>CLASICO--jamon, pollo, queso manchego, pimiento, ceballo
>ESPECIAL--jamon, salami, pavo, q. mozarela, tomate, lechuga, ceb., aceituna
>PIZZA--salami, champinones, q. mozarela, salsa de tomate
>TUNA MELT
>PEPITO--filete de res, frijol, guacamole, tomate
>STROGANOFF
>BBQ
>YUCATECO--lomo de puerco, q. manchego, salsa de tomate, hueva
>TRADICIONAL--pollo, heuva, queso manchego, aguacate
>SOFIA--pollo, tocino, queso crema, queso amarillo}SUPREMO--pechuga de pava,
>salsa de champinones
>POBLANO--rajas de chile poblano, queso panela, crema, elote, cebolla
>VEGETARIANO
>CAJUN
>BURGER

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Sat Nov  6 02:49:37 1999
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 18:49:37 -0800
Subject: Mexican shoes; Mexican ice cream
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.184937.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nine out of 10 men who try Camels prefer women..

Bob

Bob Haas wrote:

> What does it taste like:  a Lucky Strike or a Camel no-filter?


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 15:18:01 1999
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:18:01 -0500
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.101801.0500.>

Ad, on a closely related subject, a Jew who accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and savior is
a convert, not a "completed Jew."

"A. Vine" wrote:

> raised Jewish - to me and my family, anyone whose religion involves Jesus Christ
> as a major figure is Christian.
>
> Andrea
> (who does not have a Christian name)
>
> beth lee simon wrote:
> >
> > Another angle on the use of _Christian_ vis a vis being Catholic:
> > as a child, Jewish, in Des Moines IA, I heard other Jewish kids use _Christian_
> > to mean Protestant when distinguishing gentiles, i.e. "So and so is Christian."
> > "No, she's Catholic."
> >
> > And sort of conversely, when my mother told me of wanting to go to the
> > "Christian" school as a child because her best friend did, she meant the Catholic
> > elementary school.
> >
> > beth simon
> > assistant professor, linguistics and english
> > indiana university purdue university
> > simon at ipfw.edu
> > or
> > simon at home2.mysolution.com
> >
> > RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
> >
> > > Someone writes:
> > > <Now, let's get back to making this a dialectal discussion> and goes on to
> > > discuss pronunciation of BAPTIST.
> > >
> > > But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
> > > term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
> > > Clearly, there is a certain subset of relgious persons who use the term
> > > CHRISTIAN to designate only persons whose particular religious views are
> > > very, very close to their own. Others use the term much more ecumenically.
> > > There is also a grey area here, because the former are often given to such
> > > statements as, "To be a Christian, you must accept Jesus Christ as your
> > > personal savior and develop a personal relationship with Jesus." But such
> > > statements in themselves are open to various interpretations. I would expectd
> > > that most devoted Catholics and Mormons feel that they accept Jesus Christ as
> > > their personal savior and have developed a personal relationship with Jesus.

____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl            tel:  (740)
593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:  (740) 593-2818


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Nov  9 16:35:40 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:35:40 -0800
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.083540.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- "A. Vine" <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:
> RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> But "in the hospital" is an expression, having no
> bearing on whether there is
> one or many area hospital(s).  Not sure if "in the
> bed" is an expression in your
> example.
>...
> Andrea
>
But it may have its origin in a time when even having
ONE hospital available was a big deal for most people!
 (Whereas during the same period all but the poorest
households might easily have had at least two beds.)

JIM

JIM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  9 19:45:11 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:45:11 EST
Subject: NADS gaffes
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.144511.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<<  would it be so difficult to print the newsletter in a font
containing at least the more usual phonetic symbols? >>

That was another production error that wasn't caught. The newsletter was
delivered in electronic form to the printer, with an IPA font which somehow
the printer didn't pick up.

Furthermore, for some reason the pdf version available at the ADS website
also did not pick up the IPA characters. I just now tried to correct that,
without success. Will try again.

I'm embarrassed to admit that even the DARE queries are the wrong ones -
repeated from the January issue rather than the new ones DARE editors had
sent. You'll find the correct new queries at
http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/NADS999.htm

No excuses, but I promise careful quality control next time.

- Allan Metcalf

- Allan Metcalf


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Nov  9 18:17:19 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:17:19 -0800
Subject: Brew haha!
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.101719.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Grant Barrett wrote:
>
>
> WOLF: What I?m talking about is a vision that incorporates many disparate parts for
> a whole that?s more than the sum of its parts. Again, look at his positions that he?s
> laid out already.
>      And in all of the brue-ha-ha over details that I think are not that important
> to the American people, there is something very consistent and coherent that he?s been
> doing with that mind, that sees different parts and how they can fit together to
> solve complicated problems.

<RANT>
Brue-ha-ha?  Hahaha, doesn't anyone run spell-check before publishing?

Did I mention that I read an article in the Murky News (San Jose Mercury News)
where the writer said that "so-and-so clapped her hands in the air like a
flamingo dancer"?

Argh.
</RANT>


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Tue Nov  9 11:13:08 1999
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:13:08 +0000
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.111308.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".


(BTW, "college", in general, in the UK roughly equates to the community
college in north America, with similar services and types of
qualifications).



> Andrea, would you address this state of being vs. location phenomenon in
> regards to
> higher education?  I'm thinking of the British "at university" vs. the more
> American "in college."  Or have I got it wrong?
>
> "A. Vine" wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps to get away from the connotation of "the" referring to a known
hospital,
>> the English say "in hospital".  It's more of a state, as in "in school" vs.
"at
>> school".  When talking about my father who is a doctor, I don't say, "he's in
>> the hospital", I say "he's at the hospital".


--Aaron



________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Tue Nov  9 20:15:16 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:15:16 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <199911092010.UAA02015@pisa.ling.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.151516.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Aaron E. Drews wrote:

>Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
>would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
>physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
>of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".

I have said "in college" all my life.

Bethany


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Nov  9 20:14:51 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:14:51 -0500
Subject: Brew haha!
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.151451.0500.>

They're very colorful, but they do tend to kill the grass in your front yard if you're not
careful.

"A. Vine" wrote:

> Did I mention that I read an article in the Murky News (San Jose Mercury News)
> where the writer said that "so-and-so clapped her hands in the air like a
> flamingo dancer"?

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                             "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Nov  9 20:22:47 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:22:47 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.152247.0500.>

And that is why we study dialects, Aaron.  Around here, a common answer to the
query: "Well, what's Johnny doin' now that he's finished high school?" would be:
"Oh, he's in college."  Now, I say common in my community--that's the southeastern
US, NC, mountains, Watauga County, Boone to be precise.  I realize that some
individuals might never say "in college," but some, at least a few, would.

And I was trying to both compare and contrast "at university" and "in college" as
phrases that both indicate states of being and location.

Maybe "in college" is a southern thing?  Any takers?  Has this been discussed
before?

"Aaron E. Drews" wrote:

> Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
> would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
> physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
> of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".
>
> (BTW, "college", in general, in the UK roughly equates to the community
> college in north America, with similar services and types of
> qualifications).

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                         "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Tue Nov  9 20:38:02 1999
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen Miller)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:38:02 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911091514560.15496-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.153802.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I have said "in college" all my life.

>Bethany

As have I. I was "in college" for four years or "I went to the University
of Whatever" for four years. "At University" and a difference between "a
college" and "a university" were things I merely pointed out to my ESL
students but never employed in my own speech.

Katy


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Tue Nov  9 22:18:40 1999
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:18:40 +0000
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.221840.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I should have said "I can't think of an instance _in the UK_...."  I was
certainly "in college", or even "in school" getting a bachelor's degree a
few years ago as a state of being.  I would have been "at college" as a
location to pick up a book or to talk with one of my profs.  I don't speak
southern (except for a very occasional y'all), coming from L.A.




> And that is why we study dialects, Aaron.  Around here, a common answer to the
> query: "Well, what's Johnny doin' now that he's finished high school?" would
>be:
> "Oh, he's in college."  Now, I say common in my community--that's the
>southeastern
> US, NC, mountains, Watauga County, Boone to be precise.  I realize that some
> individuals might never say "in college," but some, at least a few, would.
>
> And I was trying to both compare and contrast "at university" and "in college"
>as
> phrases that both indicate states of being and location.
>
> Maybe "in college" is a southern thing?  Any takers?  Has this been discussed
> before?

>
> "Aaron E. Drews" wrote:
>
>> Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
>> would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
>> physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
>> of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".



________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov  9 22:20:33 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:20:33 -0500
Subject: Brew haha!
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.172033.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Tuesday, November 9, 1999, A. Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:

><RANT>
>Brue-ha-ha?  Hahaha, doesn't anyone run spell-check before
>publishing?
></RANT>


Well, it was a transcript, and there was probably the usual reminder on the web page
that it was a quick-and-dirty version. Also, transcription work is boring and a
friend who did it for quick cash used to watch soaps as she typed. Not exactly a
quality-promoting situation.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Nov  9 22:29:45 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:29:45 -0800
Subject: Brew haha!
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.142945.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Grant Barrett wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, November 9, 1999, A. Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:
>
> ><RANT>
> >Brue-ha-ha?  Hahaha, doesn't anyone run spell-check before
> >publishing?
> ></RANT>
>
> Well, it was a transcript, and there was probably the usual reminder on the web page
> that it was a quick-and-dirty version. Also, transcription work is boring and a
> friend who did it for quick cash used to watch soaps as she typed. Not exactly a
> quality-promoting situation.

<furtherant>
I didn't say proofread, I said spell-check, which is darn fast.  Admittedly, the
"flamingo" won't be caught by a brain-dead spell-checker, but "brue-ha-ha" would
be.  Download a free copy of Netscape Communicator, load your page into Page
Composer, and click "Spell".
</furtherant>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov  9 22:46:23 1999
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:46:23 -0800
Subject: Brew haha!
In-Reply-To: <-1269954469gbarrett@americandialect.org>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.144623.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey, no need for any apologies.  Inspired by this thread (and especially
Andrea's subject line), I've decided to quit my job and go start a new brew
pub, now that I have the perfect name for it.  (All right--go ahead,
everybody, send in those messages telling me it's been done.) :)

Peter Mc.


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov  9 22:46:31 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:46:31 -0500
Subject: Brew haha!
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.174631.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Tuesday, November 9, 1999, A. Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:
>I didn't say proofread, I said spell-check, which is darn fast.  Admittedly, the
>"flamingo" won't be caught by a brain-dead spell-checker, but "brue-ha-ha" would
>be.  Download a free copy of Netscape Communicator, load your page into Page
>Composer, and click "Spell".

Only spell-checkers don't necessarily offer a replacement word for that particular
spelling (I just checked two that didn't) even if they catch it,  whatever clown is at
the keyboard may let it slide without further effort.

I am completely on your side.


--
Grant Barrett

http://www.worldnewyork.com/


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  9 23:32:59 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:32:59 EST
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.183259.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So have I and everyone I know!   In fact, the first time I heard the phrase,
"at college," I had to do some serious hypothesis testing.  I think the
phrase was, "away at college."  Since it was uttered by a somewhat
pretentious non-Southerner, I assumed that the person was just, "talkin'
proper."

If one can be "in high school," one can be "in college."  I guess the reason
people don't say "in university," is that a university is a larger, more
impersonal, less familiar environment.  I guess it's analogous to the
dichotomy "Christians" make when they talk about being "in the world," but
not "of the world."   The former would make one unconcerned with worldly
affairs, not personally involved; the latter would be the opposite.
                            PAT


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 23:26:48 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:26:48 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911091514560.15496-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.182648.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:15 PM 11/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Aaron E. Drews wrote:
>
> >Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
> >would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
> >physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
> >of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".
>
>I have said "in college" all my life.
>
>Bethany


Me too--but not "in university."  (Minnesota born and bred.)


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 23:25:13 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:25:13 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
In-Reply-To: <38275383.C87F72AF@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.182513.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 05:49 PM 11/8/99 -0500, Lynne Murphy wrote:

>An ex of mine was a Lutheran of German-Norwegian (Illinois-N. Dakota) stock,
>who, whenever she saw a Jello salad would gesture boldly and exclaim "Behold!
>The food of my people!"  This joke got started because of the ubiquitous jello
>salads at Lutheran "covered dish" (i.e., potluck) suppers in that part of the
>country.  So, perhaps one can be a little bit culturally Lutheran, if not
>ethnically so.
>
>Several people  I know and I refer to ourselves as "culturally Catholic".
>(Others refer to themselves as "recovering Catholics", of course.)  The idea
>behind cultural Catholicism is kind of like ethnic Judaism--we were brought up
>with ritual, righteous guilt, mysteries, and such that we're not
>altogether sure
>that we want to get rid of.  Be an atheist?  That's fine.  But give up
>icons and
>incense and Latin?  Well, that's a bit harder.  They're so cool...
Cultural Lutherans can't give up Bach and Buxtehude, or the wondrously
inspired singing of small-town church choirs....  But the preaching and the
guilt?  Ah, that's another matter.  In fact, I was tempted to write
earlier, in response to the puzzlement over Mormon and Orthodox Jewish
early marriages, that Lutherans (and probably Mormons) were always
lectured, citing Paul, "It is better to marry than to burn."  Not much
subtlety there.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 00:53:35 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 19:53:35 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.195335.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You didn't spend none of that life in the UK though Bethany.

dInIs (who spent damn little of his there too; couldn't speak the dang
language for one thing; went to Poland instead; learnt it quick)

>On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Aaron E. Drews wrote:
>
>>Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
>>would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
>>physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
>>of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".
>
>I have said "in college" all my life.
>
>Bethany

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From greg at PULLIAM.ORG  Wed Nov 10 00:58:39 1999
From: greg at PULLIAM.ORG (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:58:39 -0600
Subject: Christian suggestion
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991109181512.00b84170@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.185839.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In my Episcopal Church upbringing, we referred to ourselves as
"Catholic Lite--Same Great Ritual, with 1/3 the Guilt"


>At 05:49 PM 11/8/99 -0500, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
>>An ex of mine was a Lutheran of German-Norwegian (Illinois-N. Dakota) stock,
>>who, whenever she saw a Jello salad would gesture boldly and exclaim "Behold!
>>The food of my people!"  This joke got started because of the
>>ubiquitous jello
>>salads at Lutheran "covered dish" (i.e., potluck) suppers in that part of the
>>country.  So, perhaps one can be a little bit culturally Lutheran, if not
>>ethnically so.
>>
>>Several people  I know and I refer to ourselves as "culturally Catholic".
>>(Others refer to themselves as "recovering Catholics", of course.)  The idea
>>behind cultural Catholicism is kind of like ethnic Judaism--we were
>>brought up
>>with ritual, righteous guilt, mysteries, and such that we're not
>>altogether sure
>>that we want to get rid of.  Be an atheist?  That's fine.  But give up
>>icons and
>>incense and Latin?  Well, that's a bit harder.  They're so cool...
>Cultural Lutherans can't give up Bach and Buxtehude, or the wondrously
>inspired singing of small-town church choirs....  But the preaching and the
>guilt?  Ah, that's another matter.  In fact, I was tempted to write
>earlier, in response to the puzzlement over Mormon and Orthodox Jewish
>early marriages, that Lutherans (and probably Mormons) were always
>lectured, citing Paul, "It is better to marry than to burn."  Not much
>subtlety there.

-
Greg


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 10 01:02:44 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:02:44 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <199911100049.TAA63682@pilot002.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.200244.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>You didn't spend none of that life in the UK though Bethany.

Wrong, DInIs! I was there from Aug. 1971 to Aug. 1972. But ... so what?

Bethany


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 01:23:12 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:23:12 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.202312.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So what is right on. One year don't cut it for prepositions (ask folks who
have been learnin' English for years).

dInIs

>On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>You didn't spend none of that life in the UK though Bethany.
>
>Wrong, DInIs! I was there from Aug. 1971 to Aug. 1972. But ... so what?
>
>Bethany

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 10 01:21:06 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:21:06 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <199911100118.UAA18630@pilot002.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.202106.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>So what is right on. One year don't cut it for prepositions (ask folks who
>have been learnin' English for years).

But we were not asked if we had lived in England. We wre asked if we said
"in  college" -- weren't we?

???

Bethany


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 10 02:44:44 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:44:44 EST
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.214444.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/9/1999 7:08:58 PM Central Standard Time,
greg at PULLIAM.ORG writes:

<<
  >>
s for the ambiguous (at least for me) quote, "It is better to marry than to
burn," I have always wondered if the word burn is a reference to
desire/passion or to hell's fire!  Maybe it is a double entendre, with a
reference to both!   For some reason, every time I ask the question, I get an
evasive response!
                    PAT


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 10 03:57:52 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:57:52 -0400
Subject: Christian suggestion
In-Reply-To: <0.aa648a85.255a361c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.235752.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In a message dated 11/9/1999 7:08:58 PM Central Standard Time,
>greg at PULLIAM.ORG writes:
>
><<
>  >>
>s for the ambiguous (at least for me) quote, "It is better to marry than to
>burn," I have always wondered if the word burn is a reference to
>desire/passion or to hell's fire!  Maybe it is a double entendre, with a
>reference to both!   For some reason, every time I ask the question, I get an
>evasive response!
>                    PAT

Or Paul could have just been offering useful advice to very inept cooks.

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 10 04:11:51 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:11:51 -0400
Subject: Brew haha!
In-Reply-To: <1423522.3151147583@dhcp-218-200-055.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.001151.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:46 PM -0800 11/9/99, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>Hey, no need for any apologies.  Inspired by this thread (and especially
>Andrea's subject line), I've decided to quit my job and go start a new brew
>pub, now that I have the perfect name for it.  (All right--go ahead,
>everybody, send in those messages telling me it's been done.) :)
>
What you want, I think, is a microbrew pub/comedy club.  But you're right;
it probably HAS been done.  Wait, let me check...   Hmm, a quick and dirty
AltaVista search turns up two Brew/Comedy places, but in both cases (Wayne,
PA and U. of Delaware) it's a coffee-house:  Brew-haha as in brewed coffee,
not beer.  There's also a site in San Francisco--

Brew Haha American Japantown,Fillmore San Francisco 1777 Steiner St &
Sutter (415) 929 7117. * * per person * * * W ood shingles hide the
entrance of...
          URL: www.digitallantern.com/san_francisco/r/3/r387.html
          Last modified on: 19-Nov-1997 - 10K bytes - in English

--but I couldn't access it, so I don't know whether we're pre-empted or
not.  But even if they're ALL coffee-houses-cum-comedy, they'll probably
still sue, given our litigious society and all.

L


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 13:17:51 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:17:51 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.081751.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yeah but the guy who said he couldn;t say it revealed his Britishness. No
US respondent has yet denied it.

dInIs (who has been in college for too long)

>On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>So what is right on. One year don't cut it for prepositions (ask folks who
>>have been learnin' English for years).
>
>But we were not asked if we had lived in England. We wre asked if we said
>"in  college" -- weren't we?
>
>???
>
>Bethany

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From courts at AIT.FREDONIA.EDU  Wed Nov 10 13:26:12 1999
From: courts at AIT.FREDONIA.EDU (Patrick Courts)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:26:12 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911091514560.15496-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.082612.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:15 PM 11/09/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Aaron E. Drews wrote:
>
>>Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
>>would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
>>physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
>>of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".
>
I was in college for four years and in graduate school for 5--always in
never at.


Pat

Please Note: I must use a voice software program that sometimes
mis-translates what I say, or mistakes my breathing for words and inserts
things like "of, in, the" etc. In the rush of doing e-mail I sometimes miss
these errors in my proof reading. My apologies.


Patrick L. Courts
Professor of English
State University of New York at Fredonia
Fredonia, NY 14063
e-mail:  courts at ait.fredonia.edu


http://www.fredonia.edu/department/english/courts/


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 10 13:25:51 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:25:51 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <199911101313.IAA80004@pilot009.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.082551.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>Yeah but the guy who said he couldn;t say it revealed his Britishness. No
>US respondent has yet denied it.

o.

Bethany


From dstein at MEDIAONE.NET  Wed Nov 10 13:49:16 1999
From: dstein at MEDIAONE.NET (David Stein)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:49:16 -0500
Subject: Research Hot Terms
In-Reply-To: <000601bf2a5a$2a982320$d31558c0@pavilion>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.084916.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm doing research on "hot" media words and phrases, and those that may be
hot in the near future.
For example, "ecommerce", "you go girl", "show me the money", etc.  This
also includes new terms in technology.
For example, "adsl" (the new telephone-based high-speed internet access
technology), "portal", etc.

Anyone know good references or newsletters or email lists for these types of
phrases?


From faber at LENNY.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 10 05:16:20 1999
From: faber at LENNY.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:16:20 -0500
Subject: IPA & PDF
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.001620.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's too much in the digest for me to scroll through specifically to Allan
Metcalf's comments about the problems getting the IPA font to show up in the
PDF format of the ADS digest (I feel like I'm channeling Hair! here!). I ran
into that problem preparing a grant proposal for NSF that had to be submitted
in PDF format, and we finally resolved it. Essentially, you have to make sure
you're using an IPA font that can be embedded in the PDF file. However, if the
IPA font resides on a particular computer, the PDF file will display properly,
even if the font isn't embedded in the PDF file. We discovered through trial
and error that the SIL fonts work fine, but that the IPAKiel font that has
been pretty much a lab standard doesn't work at all. I think the technical
limit is that it has to be a TrueType font (IPAKiel is PostScript).

Alice


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 10 14:53:28 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:53:28 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.095328.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Several days ago I asked if anyone knew of any excellent professional
glossaries. I have received no replies. So, I send a variant of the
question -- do you know of any reasonably good professional glossaries?

Thanks,
Bethany


From dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP  Wed Nov 10 15:26:22 1999
From: dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP (Daniel Long)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:26:22 +0900
Subject: Cheesy Christian Screwdivers (was Professional Glossaries)
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.002622.0900.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bethany,
I am afraid I didn't understand what you meant by "professional glossary".
Maybe others did, but perhaps it would increase responses if you gave a
little example.  Does this mean a glossary of terms that only
archaeologists (etc.) use?
One more suggestion:  If you want responses to an academic query, put
something like "Flat-headed" or "Baptists" or "Cheese curds" in the subject
line.

Danny

Bethany K. Dumas wrote:

> Several days ago I asked if anyone knew of any excellent professional
> glossaries. I have received no replies. So, I send a variant of the
> question -- do you know of any reasonably good professional glossaries?

-----
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-426-77-2184
Japanese Language and Literature Dept.    fax  +81-426-77-2140
Tokyo Metropolitan University
1-1 Minami Osawa, Hachioji-shi, Tokyo  192-0397 Japan
mailto:dlong at bcomp.metro-u.ac.jp
http://nihongo.human.metro-u.ac.jp/long/


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 10 16:08:29 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:08:29 EST
Subject: in/at college
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.110829.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/9/1999 4:33:32 PM, highbob at MINDSPRING.COM writes:

<< Maybe "in college" is a southern thing? >>

Nope--when I submitted myself to higher education (1958-1962) I was "in
college" but "at the University of Iowa"; when my parents spoke about this,
though, they said I was "away at college." After that, I was "in graduate
school" (same place, 1962-67). Now I teach "in a university" but I teach "at
Duke University."


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Wed Nov 10 16:35:18 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:35:18 -0600
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.103518.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For what subject?
----- Original Message -----
From: Bethany K. Dumas <dumasb at UTK.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 8:53 AM
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request


> Several days ago I asked if anyone knew of any excellent professional
> glossaries. I have received no replies. So, I send a variant of the
> question -- do you know of any reasonably good professional glossaries?
>
> Thanks,
> Bethany


From LROSENWALD at WELLESLEY.EDU  Wed Nov 10 16:30:07 1999
From: LROSENWALD at WELLESLEY.EDU (Larry Rosenwald)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:30:07 -0500
Subject: some queries
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.113007.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Hi - I'd like to beg for a little help.  I have students working on
1) Maine English, and in general the linguistic history of Maine, 2)
Appalachian English, 3) jargons in American English (she got interested in
that _Smithsonian_ account of the military use of Native American words as
a secret language in World War II).  I know a little about these things,
but I'm wondering whether subscribers to this list might have bibliographic
suggestions to make.  Off the top of your head only!  I don't want to ask
anyone to rummage through files or libraries, just, if possible, to take a
second and send me the obvious things that you know and I don't!
        Thanks in advance, Larry Rosenwald


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Wed Nov 10 16:40:28 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:40:28 -0600
Subject: in/at college
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.104028.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: <RonButters at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 10:08 AM
Subject: in/at college


> In a message dated 11/9/1999 4:33:32 PM, highbob at MINDSPRING.COM writes:
>
> << Maybe "in college" is a southern thing? >>
>
> Nope--when I submitted myself to higher education (1958-1962) I was "in
> college" but "at the University of Iowa"; when my parents spoke about
this,
> though, they said I was "away at college." After that, I was "in graduate
> school" (same place, 1962-67). Now I teach "in a university" but I teach
"at
> Duke University."

    Sounds quite reasonable to me, my parents used the same phraseology
    as yours when I was attending college and when I was a professor.
    Scott Catledge


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 10 16:48:48 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:48:48 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <003e01bf2b99$93bd2360$f47a1bcc@pafracat>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.114848.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Pafra & Scott Catledge wrote:

>For what subject?

ANY professional subject - medical, legal, physics, taxation, etc.

Bethany


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Wed Nov 10 16:58:27 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:58:27 -0500
Subject: coffee (was: Re: Christian suggestion)
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.115827.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mike Salovesh wonders:

>>>>>
I never figured out how coffee could smell so good and taste so bad.
<<<<<

It's because nobody (typically) bothers to clean the works properly, and often a
pot is left on the heat, cooking.

I'm generally a tea drinker, but since a co-worker gave me a taste of what he
brewed from ground coffee in his Bodum(TM) press, I've had one of my own. I keep
it clean, I brew mine fresh, and it tastes *good*!

Now, though, one of the local connoisseurs has been singing the praises of
keeping whole beans and grinding them fresh for each cup...


-- Mark


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 10 17:05:01 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:05:01 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <003e01bf2b99$93bd2360$f47a1bcc@pafracat>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.120501.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bethany,

I don't know if by "glossaries" you mean brief word-lists, as opposed to
full-length books, but in law the new edition of Black's Law Dictionary is
reasonably good (former editions were abominable).

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Wed Nov 10 17:03:44 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:03:44 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.120344.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Aaron E. Drews" <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK> writes

>>>>>
Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".

(BTW, "college", in general, in the UK roughly equates to the community
college in north America, with similar services and types of
qualifications).
<<<<<

This side the pond (USA), "she's in college" means "she's a college student".
That defines her current occupation, whether or not at the moment she's
physically there or classes are in session. She may be on summer vacation half a
world away, but if she's intending to continue her studies in fall, she's in
college. You might append a clarifying disclaimer: "Not right now, of course."

At least, that's how I think I use and understand it.

-- Mark


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 17:12:30 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:12:30 -0500
Subject: some queries
In-Reply-To: <01JI65PXL7148WXE8N@WELLESLEY.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.121230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Do you have the reference for the _Smithsonian_ article?  I'm curious.

On AppEng, see Wolfram and Christian, _Appalachian Speech_ (1976) and
anything by Michael Montgomery.

At 11:30 AM 11/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>         Hi - I'd like to beg for a little help.  I have students working on
>1) Maine English, and in general the linguistic history of Maine, 2)
>Appalachian English, 3) jargons in American English (she got interested in
>that _Smithsonian_ account of the military use of Native American words as
>a secret language in World War II).  I know a little about these things,
>but I'm wondering whether subscribers to this list might have bibliographic
>suggestions to make.  Off the top of your head only!  I don't want to ask
>anyone to rummage through files or libraries, just, if possible, to take a
>second and send me the obvious things that you know and I don't!
>         Thanks in advance, Larry Rosenwald


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 10 17:27:54 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:27:54 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911101202150.4639-100000@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.122754.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>I don't know if by "glossaries" you mean brief word-lists, as opposed to
>full-length books, but in law the new edition of Black's Law Dictionary is
>reasonably good (former editions were abominable).

Thanks. I mean specialized lexicons (as opposed to general dictionaries),
rather than brief ones -- and I agree with you about Black's, which I put
at the top of my own list.

But now I am wondering -- is there unanimity among us re the meaning of
hthe term "glossary." (I raised this question once before; there were very
few responses.)

DSNA members, what say you?

Bethany


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 17:55:08 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:55:08 -0500
Subject: coffee
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.125508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark,

You don't keep whole beans in the freezer and grind them before each brewing?

Are you a member of ADS?

dInIs

>Mike Salovesh wonders:
>
>>>>>>
>I never figured out how coffee could smell so good and taste so bad.
><<<<<
>
>It's because nobody (typically) bothers to clean the works properly, and often
>a
>pot is left on the heat, cooking.
>
>I'm generally a tea drinker, but since a co-worker gave me a taste of what he
>brewed from ground coffee in his Bodum(TM) press, I've had one of my own. I
>keep
>it clean, I brew mine fresh, and it tastes *good*!
>
>Now, though, one of the local connoisseurs has been singing the praises of
>keeping whole beans and grinding them fresh for each cup...
>
>
>-- Mark

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Wed Nov 10 18:11:14 1999
From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (TERRY IRONS)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:11:14 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911101225120.3722-100000@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.131114.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bethany,


Two sitting on my desk come to mind:

Peter Matthews,  Concise Oxford Dictionary of Linguistics

Holman & Harmon,  A Handbook to Literature.

But are they "glossaries"?


Our library also has several dictionaries of philosophy.


Virtually, Terry
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Wed Nov 10 18:16:49 1999
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron Drews)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:16:49 +0000
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <199911101313.IAA80004@pilot009.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.181649.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

}Yeah but the guy who said he couldn;t say it revealed his Britishness. No
}US respondent has yet denied it.

If that's me, I'm not quite sure how to take it.  As I said in an earlier
message, I'm from L.A...... I'm just trying to observe what is said in
Britain, since that was kinda, sorta part of an earlier query.

 =======================================================================
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                  Departments of English Language and
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron       Theoretical & Applied  Linguistics

"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 18:27:48 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:27:48 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.132748.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My apologies mate. Thought you were reporting your own usage, not them
around you. No offense I hope.

dInIs

>On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>}Yeah but the guy who said he couldn;t say it revealed his Britishness. No
>}US respondent has yet denied it.
>
>If that's me, I'm not quite sure how to take it.  As I said in an earlier
>message, I'm from L.A...... I'm just trying to observe what is said in
>Britain, since that was kinda, sorta part of an earlier query.
>
>========================================================================
>Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
>aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                  Departments of English Language and
>http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron       Theoretical & Applied  Linguistics
>
>"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
>        --Death

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Nov 10 18:32:03 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:32:03 -0800
Subject: some queries
In-Reply-To: <01JI65PXL7148WXE8N@WELLESLEY.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.103203.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry,

There is a book about the code talkers.

 AUTHOR       Paul, Doris Atkinson
 TITLE        The Navajo code talkers [by] Doris A. Paul
 PUBL INFO    Philadelphia, Dorrance [1973]
 PHYS DESC    xii, 170 p. illus. 22 cm
 NOTE         Bibliography: p. 169-170
 SUBJECT      World War, 1939-1945 -- Cryptography
 SUBJECT      World War, 1939-1945 -- Participation, Indian
 SUBJECT      Navajo Indians
 LCCN         72091142 //r842
 ISBN         0805918701
 OCLC #       736883
 GRSN         00620562
 MISC         19861029062606.0
 MISC         731018s1973    paua     b    000 0 eng  nam01
 MISC         DLC DLC m.c. WAU
 MISC         n-ust-- p------

and a couple of videos, one of which was produced for the History Channel,
but I have no info on availability

   1  040     JBW c JBW
   2  007     v b f d c e m f a g h h o i u
   3  020     0767011791
   4  024 1   3396140428
   5  028 42  AAE-40428 b A&E Television Networks
   6  090     b
   7  049     WAUW
   8  245 00  Navajo code talkers h [videorecording] / c produced by
Triage, Inc. for the History Channel.
   9  260     [New York] : b A&E Television Networks, b Distributed in the
U.S. by New Video Group, c c1998.
  10  300     1 videocassette (ca. 43 min) : b sd., col. with b&w
sequences ; c 1/2 in.
  11  440  0  In search of history
  12  538     VHS format.
  13  508     Director of photography, Van Carlson; editor, Darryl Clift.
  14  520     Describes the role of a select group of Navajo Marines who
developed a code based on their own native language that provided a means
for
secure communications among American forces in the Pacific during World
War
II.
  15  650  0  World War, 1939-1945 x Cryptography.
  16  650  0  World War, 1939-1945 x Participation, Indian.
  17  650  0  Navajo language.
  18  650  0  Navajo Indians.
  19  610 10  United States. b Marine Corps x Indian troops.
  20  710 2   Triage, Inc.
  21  710 2   History Channel (Firm)
  22  710 2   Arts and Entertainment Network.


   1  040     IUA c IUA
   2  007     v b f d c e b f a g h h o
   3  020     0963969811
   4  090     D810.C88 b N38 1995
   5  090     b
   6  049     WAUW
   7  245 00  Navajo code talkers h [videorecording] : b the epic story /
c produced by Brendan W. Tully and Francine M. Rzeznik ; directed by Allan
Silliphant ; written by Brendan W. Tully.
   8  260     [North Hollywood, Calif.?] : b Tully Entertainment, c c1995.
   9  300     1 videocassette (55 min.) : b sd., col. with b&w sequences ;
c 1/2 in.
  10  538     VHS
  11  520     During World War II, the U.S. Marine Corps recruited Navajo
Indians for duty as communication specialists.  The Navajos developed a
special voice code based on the Navajo language to transmit battlefield
messages during the Pacific campaign. This code was never broken by the
Japanese.
  12  650  0  World War, 1939-1945 x Cryptography.
  13  650  0  Navajo Indians.
  14  650  0  Navajo language.
  15  651  0  World War, 1939-1945 x Participation, Indian.
  16  700 1   Tully, Brendan W.
  17  700 1   Rzeznik, Francine M.
  18  700 1   Silliphant, Allan.

Doris Paul's book was reissued in 1998. If you have OCLC WorldCat
available you might want to try a title keyword search on code AND
talkers, I found at least 11 other book titles that might be of interest.

Can't help much with Maine or Appalachia ...

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Larry Rosenwald wrote:

>         Hi - I'd like to beg for a little help.  I have students working on
> 1) Maine English, and in general the linguistic history of Maine, 2)
> Appalachian English, 3) jargons in American English (she got interested in
> that _Smithsonian_ account of the military use of Native American words as
> a secret language in World War II).  I know a little about these things,
> but I'm wondering whether subscribers to this list might have bibliographic
> suggestions to make.  Off the top of your head only!  I don't want to ask
> anyone to rummage through files or libraries, just, if possible, to take a
> second and send me the obvious things that you know and I don't!
>         Thanks in advance, Larry Rosenwald
>


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 18:52:11 1999
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:52:11 -0600
Subject: some queries
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.125211.0600.>

Larry Rosenwald wrote:
>
>         Hi - I'd like to beg for a little help.  I have students working on
> 1) Maine English, and in general the linguistic history of Maine, 2)
> Appalachian English, 3) jargons in American English (she got interested in
> that _Smithsonian_ account of the military use of Native American words as
> a secret language in World War II).  I know a little about these things,
> but I'm wondering whether subscribers to this list might have bibliographic
> suggestions to make.  Off the top of your head only!  I don't want to ask
> anyone to rummage through files or libraries, just, if possible, to take a
> second and send me the obvious things that you know and I don't!
>         Thanks in advance, Larry Rosenwald

Larry:

Okay, this is really off the top of my head.  I recently saw an
announcement of an Anchor Books 1999 reprint of David Maurer's *The Big
Con* (originally 1940, with a Paperback Books reprint about the same
time).  It's about confidence men and their argot, and reaches back to
around 1900 or so. It was one of the best-loved books of my ill-spent
teens, in part because I knew a couple of oldtime con men in Chicago
back in the 1940s. They were happy to talk about Maurer's book -- which
they knew well! -- because they knew most of his informants. They even
amplified on some of the incidents he reports.

Maurer's studies of underworld slang had an influence far beyond
academia.  Hollywood, in the 1930s, used to turn to him for authentic
gangster talk.  As I recall, terms like "gat" and "moll" and "yegg" got
to the soundtracks of the silver screen because Maurer passed them on.

I particularly recommend *The Big Con* because it was plagiarized into
the film "The Sting".  The first time I saw it, I recognized most of the
short cons in the early part of the film as coming straight from Maurer.
The elaborate setup of the Big Store (a fake betting parlor, complete
with fake gamblers and all) was pure Maurer. My first viewing was in
Mexico City while the film was in its first run back in the U.S.  The
Mexican theater ran it with an intermission.  Out in the lobby, I told
the people I was with to watch for the cackle bladder, and they were
impressed when it turned up in the blowoff. (Tell your student to read
The Big Con to translate the specialized terms in this paragraph.)

Maurer sued everybody involved with the film because it clearly was an
illicit use of his intellectual property. I don't know what happened to
the case -- it must have been filed pretty close to the year of his
death -- but it sure as hell should have been decided in his favor.

Thinking of *The Big Con* reminds me of Maurer's other books,
particularly *Languages of the Underworld", which I reviewed for
__American Anthropologist__.  (I accepted the invitation to review this
book as fast as I could, because of my background in linguistics and in
studying the underworld. Later, I discovered that Raven McDavid had
suggested me as the reviewer. He was perhaps the only one besides my
wife who knew of that part of my checkered career.  My wife worked for
Raven when he was completing the revision of Mencken's American
Language, and we spent a lot of time with him in those days.)

Yep, the more I think of it the more I think just about all of Maurer's
books could be just the kind of thing your student could follow up with
pleasure.  They're classic studies of U.S. jargons.

-- mike salovesh           <salovesh at niu.edu>       PEACE !!!

P.S.: There was a show on the Navajo talkers of World War II recently on
the History Channel. If your student is following up on that story, it
would be worth searching for.


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 10 20:17:08 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:17:08 EST
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.151708.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M.H. Abrams' "Glossary of Literary Terms," most recent edition 1992, is
lucid, informative, and almost a work of art in its own right. - Allan Metcalf


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 10 20:23:20 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:23:20 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <0.99db1cad.255b2cc4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.152320.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:

>M.H. Abrams' "Glossary of Literary Terms," most recent edition 1992, is
>lucid, informative, and almost a work of art in its own right. - Allan Metcalf

Thanks. Do you have pub info?

(So a glossary CAN be a work of art? So far my criteria for excellence
have been completeness, accuracy, and relevance.)

Bethany


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Wed Nov 10 18:41:34 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:41:34 -0500
Subject: Navajo code-talkers
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.134134.0500.>

Here's the info on the Navajo code talkers article in Smithsonian.  I
have it here, but had to look it up on Infotrac b/c I didn't have the
date on it:


                                   Jaysho, moasi, dibeh, ayeshi,
hasclishnih, beshlo, shush, gini.
                                   (World War II voice code) Bruce
Watson.
                                         Smithsonian August 1993 v24 n5
p34(9)

There was an article in the NYT about Navajo code talkers last month:

The New York Times, Oct 11, 1999 pA14(N) pA14(L) col 1 (30 col in)
                                           Code talkers' story pops up
everywhere; Navajo
                                           war effort no longer
unhearalded. (National Pages)
                                           Todd S. Purdum.

Also, from the number of book reviews that came up on my search, I guess
there's been a book or two on the topic recently...

Lynne

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Wed Nov 10 16:50:11 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:50:11 -0500
Subject: in/at college
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.115011.0500.>

> In a message dated 11/9/1999 4:33:32 PM, highbob at MINDSPRING.COM writes:
>
> << Maybe "in college" is a southern thing? >>

I think "in college" is a general American thing...


--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Nov 10 21:04:04 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:04:04 -0800
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.130404.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greetings, all,

Does anyone know of a study done showing whether or not uppercase letters are
more difficult to read than lowercase?

Thanks for any info,
Andrea


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Nov 10 21:09:44 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:09:44 -0500
Subject: Pokemon reference?
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.160944.0500.>

Who posted the Pokemon article link earlier today?  Was it
on this list?  Could anyone forward the original post to me,
please?  I'm afraid that I've already trashed my own copy--I
just want to discover the original context.

Many thanks.

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

              "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Nov 10 21:20:41 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:20:41 -0500
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.162041.0500.>

Ooh, good question, Andrea.  I just called one of my students on this this
morning.  She had e-mailed me a draft of a paper in all caps.  I told her that
it was hard to read . . . and it WAS.  This is a little disconcerting for me
since I tend to print in all caps, and I write in all caps on the board in
class.  But it's not the same thing (he squeaked in some lame form of
self-defense for a totally contradictory position).

I hope someone can provide info.

"A. Vine" wrote:

> Greetings, all,
>
> Does anyone know of a study done showing whether or not uppercase letters are
> more difficult to read than lowercase?

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                        "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From AGCOM.egregory at TAEXGW.TAMU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 21:59:06 1999
From: AGCOM.egregory at TAEXGW.TAMU.EDU (Elizabeth Gregory)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:59:06 -0600
Subject: Writing question -Reply
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.155906.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In terms of typography, Colin Wheildon has done several studies on the effect of all-capitals versus capitals-and-lower-case (among many other variables, like serif versus sans-serif type, reversed type on a dark background, etc.) on readability and comprehension.

He reports his findings in _Type and Layout_ (1996, Strathmoor Press).

I'm not aware of similar research done for other media, such as computer screens, etc., or for handwriting.

A quick synthesis of the theory of type, design, and readability I've read:

For passages of text (as opposed to headings or headlines), anything that makes letters look more different from each other aids readability, by allowing words to be read more quickly and easily.

In all-caps, all the letters are basically the same shape (a large square), so an important means of differentiation is lost. Each letter must be recognized individually, so reading becomes slower and more tedious.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth Gregory
Assistant Professor and
Extension Communications Specialist
Texas Agricultural Extension Service
The Texas A&M University System


From pskuhlman at JUNO.COM  Wed Nov 10 22:05:24 1999
From: pskuhlman at JUNO.COM (Patricia S. Kuhlman)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:05:24 -0500
Subject: born-again (was Christian suggestion)
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.170524.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     True story.  A friend of mine who was a social worker in Texas
overheard this interchange between a Texan client and a newly arrived
social worker from New York.  The client says:  "Are you lost or are you
found?"  The truly puzzled newcomer to the land of born-again Christians
replied without missing a beat:  "I'm from New York."
     I'm from New York via northern Illinois, so I have no idea whether
lost and found are common terms for unsaved and saved, but I think it's a
great story.  It sounds apocryphal, but my friend swears on the Bible
that it's true.

Patricia Kuhlman
Brooklyn, NY
pskuhlman at juno.com


From pskuhlman at JUNO.COM  Wed Nov 10 22:13:17 1999
From: pskuhlman at JUNO.COM (Patricia S. Kuhlman)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:13:17 -0500
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.171317.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:04:04 -0800 "A. Vine" <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> writes:
>Greetings, all,
>
>Does anyone know of a study done showing whether or not uppercase
>letters are
>more difficult to read than lowercase?
>
>Thanks for any info,
>Andrea

I taught second grade for a year.  The standard wisdom is that kids have
a hard time reading sentences that are written totally in upper case
letters.  So, perhaps primary education specialists have done some
research on this.  Whether this difficulty carries over to adulthood, I
don't know, but I'm sure advertising companies do!

Patricia Kuhlman
Brooklyn, NY
pskuhlman at juno.com


From sarahworthington at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 10 22:46:43 1999
From: sarahworthington at HOTMAIL.COM (Sarah Worthington)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:46:43 PST
Subject: dialect samples on cassette
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.144643.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anybody know of an audio tape series which gives examples of different
dialects of English? What I have found is intended for actors to develop THE
southern accent, THE New York accent, etc, rather than real samples from
real speakers. We would like to expose our students to dialects they might
otherwise never hear authentically used, such as Appalachian speech or
different Southern dialects. I doubt anything is available in one handy
dandy series, but if it's out there I'd love to know about it.

Thanks for your suggestions,

Sarah Worthington
Arizona State University

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Wed Nov 10 22:47:10 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:47:10 -0600
Subject: caps vs. c & lower case
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.164710.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry don't know of study but it's interesting that most
lettering/calligraphy books and the graphic Art instructors I have had all
said that it is true.  Where this info originated I do not know.
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 3:04 PM
Subject: Writing question


> Greetings, all,
>
> Does anyone know of a study done showing whether or not uppercase letters
are
> more difficult to read than lowercase?
>
> Thanks for any info,
> Andrea


From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Wed Nov 10 22:43:47 1999
From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (TERRY IRONS)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:43:47 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries (first of two)
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.174347.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A search of our system turned up the following glossaries.


Virtually, Terry
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:43:20 -0500
From: voyager at eastlib.uky.edu
To: t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Subject: Opac Title Search for Glossary

Other Author(s):    Young, Heartsill, 1917-
                    Belanger, Terry.

Title:              The ALA glossary of library and information science /
                      Heartsill Young, editor, with the assistance of Terry
                      Belanger ... [et al.].

Subject(s):         Library science--Dictionaries.
                    Information science--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Chicago : American Library Association, 1983.

Description:        xvi, 245 p. ; 27 cm.

Notes:              x  519057  831114  Pub.  52.63

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        020.3 A11

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    American Psychiatric Association.
                    American Psychiatric Association. Joint Commission on
                      Public Affairs.

Title:              [Psychiatric glossary.
                    The American Psychiatric Association's Psychiatric
                      glossary / edited by a subcommittee of the Joint
                      Commission on Public Affairs.

Subject(s):         Psychiatry--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Washington, D.C. : Distributed by the American Psychiatric
                      Press, c1984.

Description:        Trade ed.
                    ix, 142 p. ; 21 cm.

Notes:              Previous ed. published as: A psychiatric glossary. 1980.
                    Bibliography: p. 138.
                    #  c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        616.89 A512P 1984

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Stone, Evelyn M.
Other Author(s):    American Psychiatric Association.

Title:              American psychiatric glossary.

Publisher:          Washington, DC : American Psychiatric Press, c1988.

Description:        6th ed. / compiled and edited by Evelyn M. Stone ;
                      editorial advisory board, Shervert H. Frazier ... [et
                      al.].
                    217 p. ; 18 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 175.
                    Over 1200 terms with brief definitions referring to
                      psychiatric disorders, persons, organizations, eponyms,
                      and concepts.  Incorporates revised nomenclature of
                      DIAGNOSTIC AND STATISTICAL MANUAL (DSM-III-R).  Contains
                      references, a list of abbreviations, and miscellaneous
                      tables.  Many cross references.
                    bj  c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        616.89 A512PA 1988

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Pettijohn, F. J. (Francis John), 1904-
Other Author(s):    Potter, Paul Edwin.

Title:              Atlas and glossary of primary sedimentary structures, by
                      F. J. Pettijohn and Paul Edwin Potter. Translations into
                      Spanish, French, and German by Juan Carlos Riggi,
                      Marie-H�l�ne Sachet, and Hans-Ulrich Schmincke.

Subject(s):         Sedimentary structures.

Publisher:          Berlin, New York, Springer-Verlag, 1964.

Description:        xv, 370 p. illus. 28 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 365-370.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        552.5 P551A

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Whitehead, Harry.

Title:              An A-Z of offshore oil & gas ; an illustrated
                      international glossary and reference guide to the
                      offshore oil & gas industries and their technology /
                      [by] Harry Whitehead ; [maps and diagrams Pamela
                      Poulter].

Subject(s):         Petroleum in submerged lands--Dictionaries.
                    Natural gas in submerged lands--Dictionaries.
                    Petroleum industry and trade--Directories.
                    Offshore gas industry--Directories.

Publisher:          London : Kogan Page, 1976.

Description:        339 p. : ill., maps, plan ; 29 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 336.
                    dn  c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        622.338 W592A

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Schmalz, Larry C.
Other Author(s):    Bailey, Thomas R.
                    Sippl, Charles J.

Title:              Beginning computer glossary for businessmen, by Larry C.
                      Schmalz, Thomas R. Bailey [and] Charles J. Sippl.

Subject(s):         Business--Data processing--Dictionaries.
                    Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York, Funk & Wagnalls [1973, c1972]

Description:        vi, 246 p. illus. 24 cm.

Series:             Funk & Wagnalls library of computer science

Notes:              bl  c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        001.6402 S247B

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        National Research Council (U.S.). Committee on Animal
                      Nutrition.
Other Author(s):    Harris, Lorin E., 1915-

Title:              Biological energy interrelationships and glossary of
                      energy terms; a report. Prepared by Lorin E. Harris.

Subject(s):         Nutrition--Terminology.
                    Energy metabolism--Terminology.

Publisher:          Washington, National Academy of Sciences-National Research
                      Council, 1966.

Description:        1st rev. ed.
                    35 p. illus. 24 cm.

Series:             National Research Council (U.S.) Publication 1411

Notes:              At head of title: Nutrient requirements of domestic
                      animals.
                    "For use as a reference in connection with the series of
                      published reports on Nutrient requirements of domestic
                      animals."
                    First published in 1962 under title: Glossary of energy
                      terms.
                    Bibliography: p. 19-22.
                    458532 770916 Midwest 5.84

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        636.085 N277B 1966

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Joint Electron Device Engineering Council. Electron Tube
                      Council.

Title:              Cathode ray tubes : glossary of terms and definitions /
                      JEDEC Electron Tube Council.

Subject(s):         Cathode ray tubes--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Washington : Electronic Industries Association, 1975.

Description:         12 p. ; 28 cm.

Series:             JEDEC Publiction ; no. 92.

Notes:              Cover title.
                    466036  780427  Pub. 2.40

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        621.381542 J74C

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Potts, Jackie.
                    Office Automation Society International.

Title:              Comprehensive glossary of office automation / compiled and
                      edited by Jackie Potts.

Subject(s):         Office practice--Automation--Dictionaries.
                    Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Dumfries, Va. : Office Automation Society International,
                      c1986.

Description:        1st ed.
                     vii, 526 p. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              #  c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        651.84 C737

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Freedman, Alan, 1942-

Title:              The computer glossary : the complete illustrated desk
                      reference / Alan Freedman.

Subject(s):         Computers--Dictionaries.
                    Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York, NY : AMACOM, c1991.

Description:        5th ed.
                    xxiii, 670 p. ; ill. : 26 cm.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        004.03 F853C 1991

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Stein, J. Stewart.

Title:              Construction glossary : an encyclopedic reference and
                      manual / J. Stewart Stein.

Subject(s):         Building--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York : Wiley, c1980.

Description:        xvii, 1013 p. ; 26 cm.

Series:             Wiley series of practical construction guides

Notes:              "A Wiley-Interscience publication."
                    Includes index.
                    502768  820104  Midwest  65.93

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        690.03 S819C

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Wolfe, Gary K., 1946-

Title:              Critical terms for science fiction and fantasy : a
                      glossary and guide to scholarship / Gary K. Wolfe.

Subject(s):         Fantastic fiction--Dictionaries.
                    Science fiction--Dictionaries.
                    Criticism--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York : Greenwood Press, c1986.

Description:        xxvi, 162 p. ; 25 cm.

Notes:              Includes index.
                    Bibliography: p. [145]-155.
                    MH  c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        809.3876 W855C

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Boucher, Carl O.

Title:              Current clinical dental terminology; a glossary of
                      accepted terms in all disciplines of dentistry. Compiled
                      and edited by Carl O. Boucher.

Subject(s):         Dentistry--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Saint Louis, C. V. Mosby Co., 1974.

Description:        2d ed.
                    xx, 442 p. 26 cm.

Notes:              Third ed. published as: Boucher's clinical dental
                      terminology. 1982.
                    Bibliography: p. xiii-xvii.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        617.6003 B753C 1974

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Mandl, Matthew.

Title:              Directory of electronic circuits, with a glossary of terms
                      / Matthew Mandl.

Subject(s):         Electronic circuits.

Publisher:          Englewood Cliffs, N.J. : Prentice-Hall, c1978.

Description:        Rev. and enl.
                    xiv, 321 p. : diagrs. ; 24 cm.

Notes:              Includes index.
                    480984  790808  Midwest  15.88

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        621.38153 M272D 1978

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        United States. Defense Intelligence Agency.

Title:              A DOD glossary of mapping, charting and geodetic terms.

Subject(s):         Maps--Terminology.

Publisher:          [Washington] 1967.

Description:        1st ed.
                    v, 243 p. 26 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 241-243.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        526.014 U58D

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Institute of Ecology.

Title:              An ecological glossary for engineers & resource managers /
                      TIE.

Subject(s):         Ecology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Logan, Utah : The Institute, [1974]

Description:        50 p. ; 22 cm.

Notes:              Cover title.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        574.503 I59A

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Brackley, Peter, 1923-

Title:              Energy and environmental terms : a glossary / compiled by
                      Peter Brackley.

Subject(s):         Power resources--Dictionaries.
                    Environmental protection--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Aldershot, Hants, England ; Brookfield, Vt., USA : Gower,
                       c1988.

Description:        ix, 189 p. : ill. ; 23 cm.

Series:
                    Energy papers ; no. 24

Notes:              Series statement from jkt.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        333.790321 B797E

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Curl, James Stevens, 1937-

Title:              English architecture : an illustrated glossary / James
                      Stevens Curl ; with a foreword by Lord Muirshiel ; and
                      drawings by John J. Sambrook.

Subject(s):         Architecture--England--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Newton Abbot ; North Pomfret, Vt. : David & Charles,
                      c1977.

Description:        192 p. : ill. ; 26 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 189-191.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        720.3 C975E

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Keen, Peter G. W.

Title:              Every manager's guide to information technology : a
                      glossary of key terms and concepts for today's business
                      leaders / Peter G.W. Keen.

Subject(s):         Information technology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Boston, Mass. : Harvard Business School Press, c1991.

Description:        viii, 170 p. ;  23 cm.

Notes:              Includes index.

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        004.024658 K26E

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Defense Systems Management College. Acquisition Policy
                      Dept.

Title:              Glossary : defense acquisition acronyms and terms.
Variant Title:      Defense acquisition acronyms and terms

Subject(s):         United States. Dept. of Defense--Procurement--Terminology.
                    Weapons systems--United States--Purchasing--Terminology.
                    Weapons systems--United States--Purchasing--Acronyms.

Publisher:          Fort Belvoir, Va. : Dept. of Defense, Defense Systems
                      Management College, Acquisition Policy Dept., 1998.

Description:        9th ed.
                    22, 136 p. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              Shipping list no.: 99-0069-P.
                    "November 1998."

Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
Call Number:        D 1.2:G 51/2/998

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Soule, James.
Other Author(s):    American Society for Horticultural Science.

Title:              Glossary for horticultural crops / James Soule ; sponsored
                      by the American Society for Horticultural Science.

Subject(s):         Horticulture--Terminology.

Publisher:          New York : Wiley, c1985.

Description:        xxvi, 898 p. : ill. ; 27 cm.

Notes:              Includes indexes.
                    Bibliography: p. 679-692.
                    #  c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        635.014 S722G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Walker, John Albert, 1938-

Title:              Glossary of art, architecture, and design since 1945 :
                      terms and labels describing movements styles and groups
                      derived from the vocabulary of artists and critics /
                      John A Walker.

Subject(s):         Art--Terminology.

Publisher:          London : Bingley ; Hamden, Ct. : Linnet Books, 1977.

Description:        2d rev. ed.
                    352 p. ; 23 cm.

Notes:              Includes bibliographical references and index.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        709.04 W181G 1977

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        American Society for Testing and Materials.
Other Author(s):    American Society for Testing and Materials. Committee E-8
                      on Nomenclature and Definitions.

Title:              Glossary of ASTM definitions, sponsored by ASTM Committee
                      E-8 on Nomenclature and Definitions.

Publisher:          Philadelphia, 1973.

Description:        Second edition.
                    540 p. illus.

Notes:              "This second edition of the Glossary of ASTM Definitions
                      is a compilation of all terms listed under the heading
                      "Definitions" in the 1972 edition of the Annual Book of
                      ASTM Standards."--Foreword.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        603 A512G 1973

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Hopkins, Jeanne.

Title:              [Astrophysical journal.
                    Glossary of astronomy and astrophysics / Jeanne Hopkins ;
                      foreword by S. Chandrasekhar.

Subject(s):         Astronomy--Dictionaries.
                    Astrophysics--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1980.

Description:        2nd ed., rev. and enl.
                    ix, 196 p. ; 24 cm.

Notes:              "Published under the auspices of the Astrophysical
                      journal"--verso t.p.
                    497812  810601  Midwest  16.61

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        520.321 H794G 1980

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Glick, David M., 1936-

Title:              Glossary of biochemistry and molecular biology / David M.
                      Glick.

Subject(s):         Biochemistry--Terminology.
                    Molecular biology--Terminology.

Publisher:          London ; Miami : Portland Press, 1997.

Description:        Rev. ed.
                    214 p. ; 20 cm.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        572.03 G559 1997

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Jackson, Benjamin Daydon, 1846-1927.

Title:              A glossary of botanic terms with their derivation and
                      accent. By Benjamin Daydon Jackson ...

Subject(s):         Botany--Terminology.

Publisher:          London, Duckworth; Philadelphia, J. B. Lippincott Company
                      [1928]

Description:        4th ed., rev., and enl.
                    x, [2], 481 p. 22 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 478-481.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        580.3 J12G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Hampel, Clifford A.
Other Author(s):    Hawley, Gessner Goodrich, 1905-

Title:              Glossary of chemical terms / Clifford A. Hampel and
                      Gessner G. Hawley.

Subject(s):         Chemistry--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York : Van Nostrand Reinhold, c1982.

Description:        2nd ed.
                    ix, 306 p. ; 23 cm.

Notes:              /517830  830912  Midwest  18.98

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        540.321 H229G 1982

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Isham, Norman Morrison, 1864-1943.
Other Author(s):    Mercer, Henry Chapman, 1856-1930.

Title:              A glossary of colonial architectural terms, by Norman
                      Morrison Isham. With a bibliography of books, 1880-1930.
                      The dating of old houses, by Henry C. Mercer.

Subject(s):         Architecture, Colonial--Dictionaries.
                    Art, Colonial--Bibliography.
                    Historic buildings--Pennsylvania.

Publisher:          [Watkins Glen, N.Y.] American Life  Foundation, 1968.

Description:        [64] p. illus. 23 cm.

Series:             Classic guidebooks to the visual arts

Notes:              Bibliography: p. [59]-[64]
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        720.3 I79G

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    United States. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Title:              Glossary of compensation terms.

Subject(s):         United States. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Publisher:          Washington, DC (2 Massachusetts Ave., NE, Washington
                      20212-0001) : U.S. Dept. of Labor, Bureau of Labor
                      Statistics, [1998]

Description:        74 p. ; 28 cm.

Series:             Report ; 923

Notes:              Shipping list no.: 98-0377-P.
                    "August 1998."

Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
Call Number:        L 2.71:923

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Mercer, John, 1918-
                    Lyons, Timothy J. (Timothy James).

Title:              Glossary of film terms / compiled by John Mercer ; James
                      R. Crocker, compilation assistant ; review panel: Loren
                      Cocking, Lee McConkey, Ken  Miura ; editor: Timothy J.
                      Lyons ; editorial vice-president: Robert W. Wagner.

Subject(s):         Motion pictures--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Philadelphia : University Film Association, 1978.

Description:        91 p. ; 26 cm.

Series:             University Film Association. Monograph, no. 2
                    UFA monograph series

Notes:              c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        791.43 G563

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        American Fisheries Society. Fish Health Section.
Other Author(s):    Post, George.
                    Klontz, William G.

Title:              Glossary of fish health terms / editors, George Post and
                      William G. Klontz.

Subject(s):         Fishes--Diseases--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          [Bethesda, Md.] : American Fisheries Society, Fish Health
                      Section, 1977.

Description:        48 p. ; 28 cm.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        597.003 A512

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Rieger, Rigomar.
Other Author(s):    Michaelis, Arnd.
                    Green, Melvin M.
                    Rieger, Rigomar.

Title:              A glossary of genetics and cytogenetics, classical and
                      molecular.

Subject(s):         Genetics--Dictionaries.
                    Cytogenetics--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Berlin, New York, [etc.] Springer-Verlag, 1968.

Description:        3rd ed. completely revised by Rigomar Rieger, Arnd
                      Michaelis [and] Melvin M. Green.
                    506 p. illus. 22 cm.

Notes:              "The first and second editions of this book were published
                      in German ... under the title: Genetisches und
                      cytogenetisches W�rterbuch."
                    Bibliography: p. 462-[506]

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        575.103 R554G 1968

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Biass-Ducroux, Fran�oise.
Other Author(s):    Napp-Zinn, Klaus, 1927-

Title:              Glossary of genetics in English, French, Spanish, Italian,
                      German, Russian. Compiled and arranged by Fran�oise
                      Biass-Ducroux in collaboration with Klaus Napp-Zinn.
                      Russian translation by Nikolaj V. Luchnik.

Subject(s):         Genetics--Dictionaries--Polyglot.
                    Dictionaries, Polyglot.

Publisher:          Amsterdam, New York, Elsevier Pub. Co., 1970.

Description:        x, 436 p. 20 cm.

Series:             Glossaria interpretum ; 16

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        575.103 B579G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Bates, Robert Latimer, 1912-
Other Author(s):    Jackson, Julia A., 1939-

Title:              Glossary of geology / Robert L. Bates and Julia A.
                      Jackson, editors.

Subject(s):         Geology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Alexandria, Va. : American Geological Institute, 1987.

Description:        3rd ed.
                    x, 788 p. ; 26 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p.
                    bj  c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        550.3 B329G 1987

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Pinney, Edward Lowell, 1925-
Other Author(s):    Slipp, Samuel.

Title:              Glossary of group and family therapy / Edward L. Pinney,
                      Jr. and Samuel Slipp.

Subject(s):         Group psychotherapy--Terminology.
                    Family psychotherapy--Terminology.

Publisher:          New York : Brunner/Mazel, c1982.

Description:        xvii, 149 p. ; 21 cm.

Notes:              510434  820928  Midwest  14.26

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        616.8915 P656G

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    United States. Dept. of Health and Human Services.

Title:              Glossary of HIV/AIDS-related terms.
Variant Title:      Glossary of HIV/AIDS related terms.

Subject(s):         AIDS (Disease)--United States.
                    HIV infections--United States.

Publisher:          [Rockville, Md.? : Dept. of Health & Human Services,
                      [1995]

Description:        111 p. ; 22 cm.

Notes:              Shipping list no.: 96-0075-P.
                    "June 1995."

Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
Call Number:        HE 1.2:G 51

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Pei, Mario, 1901-

Title:              Glossary of linguistic terminology [by] Mario Pei.

Subject(s):         Linguistics--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York, Columbia University Press, 1966.

Description:        xvi, 299 p. 21 cm.

Notes:              c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        410.3 P377G

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Huschke, R. E. (Ralph E.), 1925-
                    American Meteorological Society.

Title:              Glossary of meteorology. Edited by Ralph E. Huschke.

Subject(s):         Meteorology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Boston, American Meteorological Society, 1959.

Description:        viii, 638 p. 24 cm.

Notes:              "Sponsored by U.S. Department of Commerce, Weather Bureau
                      [and others]"
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        551.503 G563

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Joint Electron Device Engineering Council. Solid State
                      Products Council.

Title:              Glossary of microelectronic terms, definitions, and
                      symbols / formulated by JEDEC Solid State Product
                      Council.

Subject(s):         Microelectronics--Terminology.
                    Microelectronics--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Washington : Electronic Industries Association,
                      Engineering Department, 1977.

Description:        [Rev. ed.]
                    61 p. (in various pagings) : ill. ; 28 cm.

Series:             Publication - JEDEC ; no. 99

Notes:              Includes index.
                    466032  780427  Pub. 5.40

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        621.3817 J74G 1977

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Amstutz, G. C. (Gerhardt Christian), 1922-
Other Author(s):    Aguilar, O.

Title:              Glossary of mining geology. In English, Spanish, French
                      and German. By G. C. Amstutz. In cooperation with O.
                      Aguilar, A. Bernard, F. El Baz, a.o.

Subject(s):         Geology, Economic--Dictionaries--Polyglot.
                    Mining engineering--Dictionaries--Polyglot.
                    Dictionaries, Polyglot.

Publisher:          Stuttgart, Enke Verlag, 1971.

Description:        xi, 197 p. with illus. 22 cm.

Notes:              Imprint covered by label: Elsevier Pub. Co., Amsterdam.
                    Bibliography: p. 161.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        553.03 A528G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Evans, Anthony.

Title:              Glossary of molecular biology / A. Evans.

Subject(s):         Molecular biology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York : Wiley, [1975] c1974.

Description:        55 p. ; 23 cm.

Notes:              "A Halsted Press book."
                    Bibliography: p. 51-55.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        574.8803 E92G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Cranston, Maurice William, 1920-
Other Author(s):    Lakoff, Sanford A.

Title:              [Glossary of political terms
                    A glossary of political ideas, edited by Maurice Cranston
                      and Sanford A. Lakoff.

Subject(s):         Political science--Terminology.

Publisher:          New York, Basic Books [1969]

Description:        xii, 180 p. 22 cm.

Series:             Culture & discovery

Notes:              1966 ed. has title: A glossary of political terms.
                    Includes bibliographies.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        320.03 C891G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Sessoms, H. Douglas (Hanson Douglas)
Other Author(s):    National Recreation and Park Association.

Title:              Glossary of recreation and park terms.

Subject(s):         Recreation--Terminology.
                    Parks--Terminology.

Publisher:          Arlington, Va., National Recreation and Park Association,
                      1972.

Description:        43 p. 23 cm.

Series:             Management aids ; bull. no. 95

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        790.02 N277M

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Cloud, Sherrill.
Other Author(s):    National Center for Higher Education Management Systems.

Title:              A glossary of standard terminology for postsecondary
                      education 1978-79 / compiled by Sherrill Cloud.

Subject(s):         Education, Higher--United States--Dictionaries.
                    Universities and colleges--Terminology.

Publisher:          Boulder, Colo. : National Center for Higher Education
                      Management Systems, [1979?]

Description:        x, 109 p. ; 23 cm.

Notes:              483157  791031  Baker & Taylor  5.00

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        378 C647G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        National Fluid Power Association.

Title:              Glossary of terms for fluid power.

Subject(s):         Fluid mechanics--Dictionaries.
                    Hydraulic engineering--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Thiensville, Wis., 1965.

Description:        4th interim ed.
                    30 p. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        532 N277A

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        National Research Council (U.S.). Conference on Glossary
                      of Terms in Nuclear Science and Technology.

Title:              A glossary of terms in nuclear science and technology.

Subject(s):         Nuclear energy--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York, American Society of Mechanical Engineers [1957]

Description:        a-e, 188 p. diagrs. 22 cm.

Series:             ASME standard ; 110

Notes:              c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
                    c.1 Temporarily Shelved at REFERENCE COLLECTION
                      (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        539.76 N2778G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Gough, Henry, 1821-1906.

Title:              A glossary of terms used in heraldry [by] Henry Gough &
                      James Parker.

Subject(s):         Heraldry--Great Britain.
                    Heraldry--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          [Detroit] Gale Research Co., 1966.

Description:        New ed. Oxford, J. Parker, 1894.
                    xxviii, 659 p. illus., coats of arms. 23 cm.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        929.6 G692G 1966

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Stone, George Cameron.

Title:              A glossary of the construction, decoration and use of arms
                      and armor in all countries and in all times, together
                      with some closely related subjects.

Subject(s):         Weapons--Dictionaries.
                    Armor--Dictionaries

Publisher:          New York, Jack Brussel, Pub. [c1961]

Description:        694 p. illus. 30 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 687-694.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        739.7 S877G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Conseil international de la langue fran�aise.
Other Author(s):    Brace, Paul.

Title:              Glossary of the environment ; with French and German
                      equivalents / Conseil international de la langue
                      fran�aise ; adapted by Paul Brace ; foreword by Ren�
                      Dubos.

Subject(s):         Human ecology--Dictionaries.
                    Environmental protection--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York : Praeger, 1977.

Description:        xi, 117 p. ; 24 cm.

Series:             Praeger special studies in international economics and
                      development

Notes:              Includes index.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        301.3103 C755G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Williams, G. L.
Other Author(s):    Sarjeant, William Antony S.
                    Kidson, Evan J. (Evan Joseph), 1930-
                    American Association of Stratigraphic Palynologists.

Title:              A glossary of the terminology applied to dinoflagellate
                      amphiesmae and cysts and acritarchs / by Graham L.
                      Williams, William A. S. Sarjeant, Evan J. Kidson.

Subject(s):         Dinoflagellates, Fossil--Terminology.
                    Acritarchs--Terminology.

Publisher:          [s.l.] : American Association of Stratigraphic
                      Palynologists, 1978.

Description:        1978 ed.
                    121 p., [1] leaf of plates : ill. ; 28 cm.

Series:             Contributions series - American Association of
                      Stratigraphic Palynologists ; no. 2A

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 84-90.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        561.13 W723G 1978

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Geer, Ira W.

Title:              Glossary of weather and climate : with related oceanic and
                      hydrologic terms / edited by Ira W. Geer.

Subject(s):         Meteorology--Dictionaries.
                    Climatology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Boston, Mass. : American Meteorological Society, 1996.

Description:        vi, 272 p. ; 24 cm.

Notes:              Includes bibliographical references (p. 271-271).

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        551.503 G5634

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Etter, Lewis E.

Title:              Glossary of words and phrases used in radiology, nuclear
                      medicine, and ultrasound. Prepared from various sources
                      for medical secretaries, X-ray technicians, medical
                      students, and residents in radiology by Lewis E. Etter.
                      With a section on suggested terminology for
                      roentgenological reports, devised by Doctors Fisher,
                      Bovard, and Bacon for the Pennsylvania Radiological
                      Society. Foreword (1st ed.) by Olive G. Johnson.
                      Foreword (2d ed.) by Patricia Warchock.

Subject(s):         Radiology, Medical--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Springfield, Ill., C.C. Thomas [1970]

Description:        2d ed.
                    xxv, 355 p. 26 cm.

Notes:              "New revised edition."
                    First ed. published in 1960 under title: Glossary of words
                      and phrases used in radiology and nuclear medicine.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        616.07 E85G 1970

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Hurov, L.

Title:              Handbook of veterinary surgical instruments and glossary
                      of surgical terms / L. Hurov, with the assistance of K.
                      Knauer, R. Playter, R. Sexton.

Subject(s):         Veterinary surgery--Instruments.
                    Veterinary surgery--Terminology.

Publisher:          Philadelphia : Saunders, 1978.

Description:        x, 214 p. : ill. ; 27 cm.

Notes:              Includes indexes.
                    471024 781031 Midwest 18.09

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        636.089 H966H

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Prytherch, R. J. (Raymond John)

Title:              Harrod's librarians' glossary of terms used in
                      librarianship, documentation and the book crafts and
                      reference book / compiled by Ray Prytherch.

Subject(s):         Library science--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Aldershot : Gower, 1987.

Description:        6th ed.
                    x, 855 p. ; 22 cm.

Notes:              /

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        010.3 H323L 1987

 ===============================================================================



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Camden-Carroll Library
Morehead State University
(606)783-2200


From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Wed Nov 10 22:44:23 1999
From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (TERRY IRONS)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:44:23 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries (second of two)
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.174423.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More glossaries.


Virtually, Terry
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:45:33 -0500
From: voyager at eastlib.uky.edu
To: t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Subject: Opac Title Search for Glossary

Other Author(s):    United States. Dept. of Housing and Urban Development.

Title:              Homeowner's glossary of building terms / U.S. Department
                      of Housing and Urban Development.

Subject(s):         House construction--Terminology.

Publisher:          Washington, D.C. (451 Seventh Street, S.W. Washington
                      20410) : The Department, [1994]

Description:        [15] p. ; 24 cm.

Notes:              Shipping list no.: 94-0276-P.
                    "July 1994"--P. [15].
                    "HUD-369-H(11)"--P. [15].
                    "Previous edition current"--P. [15].

Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
Call Number:        HH 1.2: B 86/2/994

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Arnold, Darrel D.
Other Author(s):    Childress, Stephen P.
                    University of Louisville. Institute of Community
                      Development.
                    University of Louisville. Urban Studies Center.

Title:              Housing : a glossary of terms / prepared by Darrel D.
                      Arnold, Stephen P. Childress.

Subject(s):         Housing--United States--Terminology.

Publisher:          Louisville, Ky. : University of Louisville, Urban Studies
                      Center, 1974.

Description:         ii, 86, [12] p. : ill. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              Title page information taken from cover.
                    An independent study prepared by the authors for credit in
                      the Institute of Community Development at the University
                      of Louisville.
                    "State Data Center of Kentucky" stamped on cover.
                    /  518342  831004  gift

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        363.5 A753H

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Harris, John, 1931-
Other Author(s):    Lever, Jill.

Title:              Illustrated glossary of architecture, 850-1830 [by] John
                      Harris & Jill Lever.

Subject(s):         Architecture--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York, Potter 1966.

Description:        xi, 79 p. 224 plates, plan, diagrs. 26 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 77-78.
                    c.1 ; c.2

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        720.3 H314I

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Shell International Petroleum Company, ltd.

Title:              Internal combustion engine; a glossary of technical terms
                      in English/American, French, Dutch, German, Spanish,
                      Italian, Portuguese, Russian.

Subject(s):         Internal combustion engines--Dictionaries--Polyglot.
                    Dictionaries, Polyglot.

Publisher:          Amsterdam, New York, Elsevier Pub. Co., 1961.

Description:        278 p. 19 cm.

Series:             Glossaria interpretum, 7

Notes:              "The text was prepared by the Shell International
                      Petroleum Company, ltd., London."

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        621.4303 I61

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Stachowitsch, Michael.
Other Author(s):    Proidl, Sylvie.

Title:              The invertebrates : an illustrated glossary / Michael
                      Stachowitsch ; Sylvie Proidl, illustrations.

Subject(s):         Invertebrates--Terminology.
                    Invertebrates--Pictorial works.
                    Invertebrates--Classification.

Publisher:          New York : Wiley-Liss, 1991.

Description:        xiii, 676 p. : ill. ; 26 cm.

Notes:              Includes index.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        592 S775I

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Kent, Ruth Kimball.

Title:              The language of journalism; a glossary of
                      print-communications terms.

Subject(s):         Journalism--Dictionaries.
                    Printing--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Kent, Ohio] Kent State University Press [1971, c1970]

Description:        [1st ed.
                    xvi, 186 p. illus. 24 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. [177]-186.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        070.03 K37L

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Bradford, Gershom, 1879-

Title:              [Glossary of sea terms
                    The mariner's dictionary.

Subject(s):         Naval art and science--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Barre, Mass., Barre Publishers, 1972.

Description:        xix, 307 p. illus. 20 cm.

Notes:              Previous editions published in 1927, 1942, and 1954 under
                      title: A glossary of sea terms.
                    396601 730711 Dolphin Bk. Club 10.55;

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        623.803 B799M

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Great Britain. Meteorological Office.
Other Author(s):    McIntosh, D. H. (Douglas Haig)

Title:              Meteorological glossary compiled by D.H. McIntosh.

Subject(s):         Meteorology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          London, H.M. Stationery Off., 1963.

Description:        [4th ed.].
                    287 p. illus. 25 cm.

Series:             Its [Publication, official] M.O. 729

Notes:              Gt. Brit. Air Ministry. Air publication] A.P. 827.
                    Bibliographical footnotes.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        551.503 G786M 1963

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Rock, N. M. S.

Title:              Numerical geology : a source guide, glossary, and
                      selective bibliography to geological uses of computers
                      and statistics / N.M.S. Rock.

Subject(s):         Geology--Data processing.
                    Geology--Statistical methods.

Publisher:          Berlin ; New York : Springer-Verlag, c1988.

Description:        xi, 427 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.

Series:             Lecture notes in earth sciences ; 18

Notes:              Includes index.
                    Bibliography: p. [329]-378.
                    c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        550.285 R682N

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Edwards, Nancy MacLellan.
                    Shaw, Carmine.
                    King, Patricia, 1941-

Title:              Office automation : a glossary and guide / edited by Nancy
                      MacLellan Edwards ; compiled by Carmine Shaw and
                      Patricia King.

Subject(s):         Office practice--Automation--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          White Plains, N.Y. : Knowledge Industry Publications,
                      c1982.

Description:        iv, 275 p. ; 26 cm.

Series:             Office productivity series

Notes:              Includes indexes.
                    /  524759  840530  Midwest  60.87

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        651.803 O32

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Scholes, Percy Alfred, 1877-1958.

Title:              The Oxford companion to music, self-indexed and with a
                      pronouncing glossary and over 1,100 portraits and
                      pictures.

Subject(s):         Music--Dictionaries.
                    Music--Bio-bibliography.

Publisher:          London, New York, Oxford University Press, 1955.

Description:        9th ed., completely rev. and reset and with many additions
                      to text and illus.
                    lx, 1195 p. illus., ports., facsims., music. 25 cm.

Notes:              c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        ML100 .S37 1955

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Kamenetz, Herman L.

Title:              Physiatric dictionary; glossary of physical medicine and
                      rehabilitation, by Herman L. Kamenetz.

Subject(s):         Medicine, Physical--Dictionaries.
                    Rehabilitation--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Springfield, Ill., C.C. Thomas [1965]

Description:        vii, 173 p. 19 cm.

Notes:              c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        615.803 K15P

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Harris, James G., 1954-
Other Author(s):    Harris, Melinda Woolf, 1953-

Title:              Plant identification terminology : an illustrated glossary
                      / James G. Harris, Melinda Woolf Harris.

Subject(s):         Botany--Dictionaries.
                    Botany--Terminology.
                    Plants--Identification.

Publisher:          Spring Lake, Utah : Spring Lake Publishing, c1994.

Description:        ix, 197 p. : ill. ; 26 cm.

Notes:              c.1
                    c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        581.014 H314P

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Edmunds, Robert A.

Title:              The Prentice-Hall standard glossary of computer
                      terminology / Robert A. Edmunds.

Subject(s):         Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.
                    Computers--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Englewood Cliffs, N.J. : Prentice-Hall, Business and
                      Professional Division, c1985.

Description:        xv, 489 p. : ill. ; 29 cm.

Notes:              /  c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        004.03 E24P

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        American Psychiatric Association. Joint Commission on
                      Public Affairs.
Other Author(s):    Werner, Arnold, 1938-
                    American Psychiatric Association. Committee on Public
                      Information.

Title:              A psychiatric glossary / American Psychiatric Association
                      ; edited by a subcommittee of the Joint Commission on
                      Public Affairs, Arnold Werner, chairman.

Subject(s):         Psychiatry--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Boston : Little, Brown, c1980.

Description:        5th ed.
                    ix, 142 p. ; 19 cm.

Notes:              Previous editions edited by the subcommittee of the
                      Committee on Public Information.
                    Bibliography: p. 138.
                    bj  c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        616.89 A5124P 1980

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Fisher, Jeffrey D.
Other Author(s):    Tosh, Dennis S.

Title:              Questions & answers to help you pass the appraisal
                      certification exams : over 1,000 questions, answers, and
                      explanations, glossary of key appraisal terms, includes
                      both residential and income property / Jeffrey D.
                      Fisher, Dennis S. Tosh.

Subject(s):         Real property--Valuation--Examinations, questions, etc.

Publisher:          Chicago : Real Estate Education Co., c1990.

Description:        v, 258 p. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        333.332 F534Q

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Soil Conservation Society of America.

Title:              Resource conservation glossary.

Subject(s):         Conservation of natural resources--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Ankeny, Iowa : Soil Conservation Society of America,
                      c1982.

Description:        3rd ed.
                    193 p. ; 23 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 191-193.
                    / 512662  830203  Pub.  7.00

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        333.72 R434 1982

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Rezny, Arthur Adolph, 1910-

Title:              A schoolman in the law library: problems, bibliography,
                      research tools, analysis of a case, glossary of legal
                      terms, by Arthur A. Rezny.

Subject(s):         Educational law and legislation--Research.
                    Legal research.

Publisher:          Danville, Ill., Interstate Printers & Publishers [c1968]

Description:        2d ed.
                    68 p. 23 cm.

Notes:              Includes bibliography.
                    276008

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        340 R467S 1968

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    United States. School to Work Opportunities Office.

Title:              School-to-work glossary of terms.
Variant Title:      School to work glossary of terms

Subject(s):         United States. School to Work Opportunities Office
                    Education, Cooperative--United States
                    School-to-work transition--United States

Publisher:          Washington, DC (400 Virginia Ave., SW, Rm. 210,
                      Washington, 20024) : National School-to-Work Office,
                      [1999]

Description:        65 p. ; 16 cm.

Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
                    c.1 Temporarily Shelved at MAIN COLLECTION NEW BOOKS
Call Number:        ED 1.2:SCH 6/24/999

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Conkin, James Elvin.
Other Author(s):    Conkin, Barbara M.

Title:              Selected glossary of eastern North American Devonian
                      stratigraphy, pyroclastics, bone beds, disconformities,
                      and correlation / by James E. Conkin and Barbara M.
                      Conkin.

Subject(s):         Geology, Stratigraphic--Devonian.
                    Geology--Atlantic States.

Publisher:          Louisville, Ky. : J. Conkin, c1979.

Description:        iii, 32 p. : ill. ; 22 cm.

Series:             University of Louisville studies in paleontology and
                      stratigraphy ; no. 9

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 32.
                    508223  820730  Pub.  3.00

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        551.74 C752S

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Avis, F. C. (Frederick Compton)

Title:              The sportsman's glossary.

Subject(s):         Sports--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          London, Souvenir Press [1961, c1960; stamped: distributed
                      by Sportshelf, New Rochelle, N.Y.]

Description:        301 p. illus., diagrs. 23 cm.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        796.03 A958S

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Malstrom, Robert.
                    Science Research Associates.

Title:              SRA data processing glossary : with concepts / written by
                      Robert C. Malstrom.

Subject(s):         Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Chicago : SRA, c1979.

Description:        vi, 282 p. : ill. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              494387  810127  Baker & Taylor  10.65

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        001.603 S774

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Tuxen, S�ren Ludvig, 1908-

Title:              Taxonomist's glossary of genitalia in insects. Edited by
                      S. L. Tuxen.

Subject(s):         Insects--Anatomy.
                    Generative organs.
                    Entomology--Nomenclature.

Publisher:          Copenhagen, Munksgaard, 1970.

Description:        2nd rev. and enlarged ed.
                    359 p. illus. 26 cm.

Series:             Scandinavian university books

Notes:              Includes bibliographies.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        595.7 T967T 1970

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Machovec, George.

Title:              Telecommunications and networking glossary / by George S.
                      Machovec.

Subject(s):         Library information networks--Terminology.
                    Telecommunication in libraries--Terminology.
                    English language--Terms and phrases.

Publisher:          Chicago : Library and Information Technology Association,
                      1990.

Description:        63 p. ; 23 cm.

Series:             LITA guides ; 3

Notes:              Includes bibliographical references (p. 60-62).

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        021.65014 M151T

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Wehlburg, Albert F. C.

Title:              Theatre lighting : an illustrated glossary / by Albert F.
                      C. Wehlburg.

Subject(s):         Stage lighting--Terminology.

Publisher:          New York : Drama Book Specialists, c1975.

Description:        1st ed.
                    62 p. : ill. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              492903  801121  Pub.  7.16

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        792.025 W413T

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Evans, Barbara Jean.

Title:              A to ZAX : a glossary of terminology for genealogists and
                      social historians / Barbara Jean Evans.

Subject(s):         Genealogy--Dictionaries.
                    English language--Glossaries, vocabularies, etc.

Publisher:          Evansville, Ind. : Unigraphic, 1978.

Description:        160, [1] p. : port. ; 29 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. [161]
                    505199  820419  McDowell Pub.  4.95

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        929.03 E92A

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Short, Nicholas M.
                    Green, Jack, 1925-

Title:              Volcanic landforms and surface features : a photographic
                      atlas and glossary / edited by Jack Green and Nicholas
                      M. Short.

Subject(s):         Volcanoes--Pictorial works.
                    Landforms--Pictorial works.

Publisher:          New York : Springer-Verlag, 1971.

Description:        xxiv, 519 p. : ill. ; 30 cm.

Notes:              Includes bibliographies.
                    403085  731217  Pub.  17.28

Location:           MAIN OVERSIZE COLLECTION
Call Number:        551.21 V911

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Thiessen, Alfred Henry, 1872-
Other Author(s):    United States. Weather Bureau.

Title:              Weather glossary, compiled by Alfred T. Thiessen.

Subject(s):         Meteorology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Washington, U.S. Dept. of Commerce, Weather Bureau [1946]

Description:        iv, 299 p. 24 cm.

Notes:              At head of title: W.B. no. 1445. Issued August 1, 1946.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        551.503 T439W

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Bragonier, Reginald.
Other Author(s):    Fisher, David, 1946-

Title:              What's what, a visual glossary of the physical world /
                      Reginald Bragonier, Jr. and David Fisher.

Subject(s):         Picture dictionaries, English.
                    Picture dictionaries.
                    Vocabulary.
                    English language--Terms and phrases.
                    Technology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Maplewood, N.J. : Hammond, c1981.

Description:        viii, 565 p. : ill. ; 29 cm.

Notes:              Includes index.
                    Pictures of common objects and the parts of which they are
                      composed, classed under general categories such as
                      living things, transportation, and personal items, are
                      identified by name.
                    bj  c.1

Location:           LRC BOOKS (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        031.02 B813W
                         ______________________________

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        031.02 B813W

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Bragonier, Reginald.
Other Author(s):    Fisher, David, 1946-

Title:              What's what in sports : the visual glossary of the sports
                      world / Reginald Bragonier, Jr. and David Fisher.

Subject(s):         Sports--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Maplewood, N.J. : Hammond, c1984.

Description:        242 p. : ill. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              Includes index.
                    /  533587  851011  Midwest  19.01

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        796.03 B813W

 ===============================================================================



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Camden-Carroll Library
Morehead State University
(606)783-2200


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 22:47:42 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:47:42 -0500
Subject: born-again (was Christian suggestion)
In-Reply-To: <19991110.171320.13758.0.pskuhlman@juno.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.174742.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Recall the now-popularized hymn, "Amazing Grace":  "I was lost but now I'm
found."  I wonder if the phrase you cite has spread because of the hymn?

At 05:05 PM 11/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>      True story.  A friend of mine who was a social worker in Texas
>overheard this interchange between a Texan client and a newly arrived
>social worker from New York.  The client says:  "Are you lost or are you
>found?"  The truly puzzled newcomer to the land of born-again Christians
>replied without missing a beat:  "I'm from New York."
>      I'm from New York via northern Illinois, so I have no idea whether
>lost and found are common terms for unsaved and saved, but I think it's a
>great story.  It sounds apocryphal, but my friend swears on the Bible
>that it's true.
>
>Patricia Kuhlman
>Brooklyn, NY
>pskuhlman at juno.com


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Nov 10 22:56:40 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:56:40 -0800
Subject: born-again (was Christian suggestion)
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.145640.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Patricia S. Kuhlman" wrote:
>
> great story.  It sounds apocryphal, but my friend swears on the Bible
> that it's true.
>

And which bible would that be? ;-}

(sorry)
Andrea


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 23:14:24 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:14:24 -0500
Subject: dialect samples on cassette
In-Reply-To: <19991110224643.43096.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.181424.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have two from England:  "In a Manner of Speaking," from BBC English
(order from Audio Forum, Guilford, Conn.): Includes several British Isles
dialects, Australia, So. Africa, India, Nigeria, W. Indies, etc., and a few
from U.S. and Canada.

"English Accents and Dialects," which accompanies Hughes and Trudgill's 3rd
ed. of the book by that title (but only covers the British Isles).

Language Files from OSU also has some tapes; and I have an old tape that
accompanies _Standards and Dialects in English_ (Shopen and Williams),
which has Black English, AppEng, NYC (but upper class only), etc.

Usually I have my students make up their own tapes as well.

At 02:46 PM 11/10/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Does anybody know of an audio tape series which gives examples of different
>dialects of English? What I have found is intended for actors to develop THE
>southern accent, THE New York accent, etc, rather than real samples from
>real speakers. We would like to expose our students to dialects they might
>otherwise never hear authentically used, such as Appalachian speech or
>different Southern dialects. I doubt anything is available in one handy
>dandy series, but if it's out there I'd love to know about it.
>
>Thanks for your suggestions,
>
>Sarah Worthington
>Arizona State University
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 23:16:04 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:16:04 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries (first of two)
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.181604.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A CD-Rom search any of us should be able to do, right?  As I tell my
students!  Ditto for pub info: They give me a Bib. with a book or article
title and say they don't know where it came from; I tell 'em, "Look it up!"

At 05:43 PM 11/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>A search of our system turned up the following glossaries.
>
>
>Virtually, Terry
>(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
>=(*)
>Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
>Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
>Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
>(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
>=(*)
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:43:20 -0500
>From: voyager at eastlib.uky.edu
>To: t.irons at morehead-st.edu
>Subject: Opac Title Search for Glossary
>
>Other Author(s):    Young, Heartsill, 1917-
>                     Belanger, Terry.
>
>Title:              The ALA glossary of library and information science /
>                       Heartsill Young, editor, with the assistance of Terry
>                       Belanger ... [et al.].
>
>Subject(s):         Library science--Dictionaries.
>                     Information science--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Chicago : American Library Association, 1983.
>
>Description:        xvi, 245 p. ; 27 cm.
>
>Notes:              x  519057  831114  Pub.  52.63
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        020.3 A11
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    American Psychiatric Association.
>                     American Psychiatric Association. Joint Commission on
>                       Public Affairs.
>
>Title:              [Psychiatric glossary.
>                     The American Psychiatric Association's Psychiatric
>                       glossary / edited by a subcommittee of the Joint
>                       Commission on Public Affairs.
>
>Subject(s):         Psychiatry--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Washington, D.C. : Distributed by the American Psychiatric
>                       Press, c1984.
>
>Description:        Trade ed.
>                     ix, 142 p. ; 21 cm.
>
>Notes:              Previous ed. published as: A psychiatric glossary. 1980.
>                     Bibliography: p. 138.
>                     #  c.1
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        616.89 A512P 1984
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Stone, Evelyn M.
>Other Author(s):    American Psychiatric Association.
>
>Title:              American psychiatric glossary.
>
>Publisher:          Washington, DC : American Psychiatric Press, c1988.
>
>Description:        6th ed. / compiled and edited by Evelyn M. Stone ;
>                       editorial advisory board, Shervert H. Frazier ... [et
>                       al.].
>                     217 p. ; 18 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 175.
>                     Over 1200 terms with brief definitions referring to
>                       psychiatric disorders, persons, organizations, eponyms,
>                       and concepts.  Incorporates revised nomenclature of
>                       DIAGNOSTIC AND STATISTICAL MANUAL
> (DSM-III-R).  Contains
>                       references, a list of abbreviations, and miscellaneous
>                       tables.  Many cross references.
>                     bj  c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        616.89 A512PA 1988
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Pettijohn, F. J. (Francis John), 1904-
>Other Author(s):    Potter, Paul Edwin.
>
>Title:              Atlas and glossary of primary sedimentary structures, by
>                       F. J. Pettijohn and Paul Edwin Potter. Translations
> into
>                       Spanish, French, and German by Juan Carlos Riggi,
>                       Marie-Hélène Sachet, and Hans-Ulrich Schmincke.
>
>Subject(s):         Sedimentary structures.
>
>Publisher:          Berlin, New York, Springer-Verlag, 1964.
>
>Description:        xv, 370 p. illus. 28 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 365-370.
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        552.5 P551A
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Whitehead, Harry.
>
>Title:              An A-Z of offshore oil & gas ; an illustrated
>                       international glossary and reference guide to the
>                       offshore oil & gas industries and their technology /
>                       [by] Harry Whitehead ; [maps and diagrams Pamela
>                       Poulter].
>
>Subject(s):         Petroleum in submerged lands--Dictionaries.
>                     Natural gas in submerged lands--Dictionaries.
>                     Petroleum industry and trade--Directories.
>                     Offshore gas industry--Directories.
>
>Publisher:          London : Kogan Page, 1976.
>
>Description:        339 p. : ill., maps, plan ; 29 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 336.
>                     dn  c.1
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        622.338 W592A
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Schmalz, Larry C.
>Other Author(s):    Bailey, Thomas R.
>                     Sippl, Charles J.
>
>Title:              Beginning computer glossary for businessmen, by Larry C.
>                       Schmalz, Thomas R. Bailey [and] Charles J. Sippl.
>
>Subject(s):         Business--Data processing--Dictionaries.
>                     Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York, Funk & Wagnalls [1973, c1972]
>
>Description:        vi, 246 p. illus. 24 cm.
>
>Series:             Funk & Wagnalls library of computer science
>
>Notes:              bl  c.1
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        001.6402 S247B
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        National Research Council (U.S.). Committee on Animal
>                       Nutrition.
>Other Author(s):    Harris, Lorin E., 1915-
>
>Title:              Biological energy interrelationships and glossary of
>                       energy terms; a report. Prepared by Lorin E. Harris.
>
>Subject(s):         Nutrition--Terminology.
>                     Energy metabolism--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          Washington, National Academy of Sciences-National Research
>                       Council, 1966.
>
>Description:        1st rev. ed.
>                     35 p. illus. 24 cm.
>
>Series:             National Research Council (U.S.) Publication 1411
>
>Notes:              At head of title: Nutrient requirements of domestic
>                       animals.
>                     "For use as a reference in connection with the series of
>                       published reports on Nutrient requirements of domestic
>                       animals."
>                     First published in 1962 under title: Glossary of energy
>                       terms.
>                     Bibliography: p. 19-22.
>                     458532 770916 Midwest 5.84
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        636.085 N277B 1966
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Joint Electron Device Engineering Council. Electron Tube
>                       Council.
>
>Title:              Cathode ray tubes : glossary of terms and definitions /
>                       JEDEC Electron Tube Council.
>
>Subject(s):         Cathode ray tubes--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Washington : Electronic Industries Association, 1975.
>
>Description:         12 p. ; 28 cm.
>
>Series:             JEDEC Publiction ; no. 92.
>
>Notes:              Cover title.
>                     466036  780427  Pub. 2.40
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        621.381542 J74C
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    Potts, Jackie.
>                     Office Automation Society International.
>
>Title:              Comprehensive glossary of office automation / compiled and
>                       edited by Jackie Potts.
>
>Subject(s):         Office practice--Automation--Dictionaries.
>                     Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Dumfries, Va. : Office Automation Society International,
>                       c1986.
>
>Description:        1st ed.
>                      vii, 526 p. ; 28 cm.
>
>Notes:              #  c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        651.84 C737
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Freedman, Alan, 1942-
>
>Title:              The computer glossary : the complete illustrated desk
>                       reference / Alan Freedman.
>
>Subject(s):         Computers--Dictionaries.
>                     Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York, NY : AMACOM, c1991.
>
>Description:        5th ed.
>                     xxiii, 670 p. ; ill. : 26 cm.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        004.03 F853C 1991
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Stein, J. Stewart.
>
>Title:              Construction glossary : an encyclopedic reference and
>                       manual / J. Stewart Stein.
>
>Subject(s):         Building--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York : Wiley, c1980.
>
>Description:        xvii, 1013 p. ; 26 cm.
>
>Series:             Wiley series of practical construction guides
>
>Notes:              "A Wiley-Interscience publication."
>                     Includes index.
>                     502768  820104  Midwest  65.93
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        690.03 S819C
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Wolfe, Gary K., 1946-
>
>Title:              Critical terms for science fiction and fantasy : a
>                       glossary and guide to scholarship / Gary K. Wolfe.
>
>Subject(s):         Fantastic fiction--Dictionaries.
>                     Science fiction--Dictionaries.
>                     Criticism--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York : Greenwood Press, c1986.
>
>Description:        xxvi, 162 p. ; 25 cm.
>
>Notes:              Includes index.
>                     Bibliography: p. [145]-155.
>                     MH  c.1
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        809.3876 W855C
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Boucher, Carl O.
>
>Title:              Current clinical dental terminology; a glossary of
>                       accepted terms in all disciplines of dentistry.
> Compiled
>                       and edited by Carl O. Boucher.
>
>Subject(s):         Dentistry--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Saint Louis, C. V. Mosby Co., 1974.
>
>Description:        2d ed.
>                     xx, 442 p. 26 cm.
>
>Notes:              Third ed. published as: Boucher's clinical dental
>                       terminology. 1982.
>                     Bibliography: p. xiii-xvii.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        617.6003 B753C 1974
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Mandl, Matthew.
>
>Title:              Directory of electronic circuits, with a glossary of terms
>                       / Matthew Mandl.
>
>Subject(s):         Electronic circuits.
>
>Publisher:          Englewood Cliffs, N.J. : Prentice-Hall, c1978.
>
>Description:        Rev. and enl.
>                     xiv, 321 p. : diagrs. ; 24 cm.
>
>Notes:              Includes index.
>                     480984  790808  Midwest  15.88
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        621.38153 M272D 1978
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        United States. Defense Intelligence Agency.
>
>Title:              A DOD glossary of mapping, charting and geodetic terms.
>
>Subject(s):         Maps--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          [Washington] 1967.
>
>Description:        1st ed.
>                     v, 243 p. 26 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 241-243.
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        526.014 U58D
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Institute of Ecology.
>
>Title:              An ecological glossary for engineers & resource managers /
>                       TIE.
>
>Subject(s):         Ecology--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Logan, Utah : The Institute, [1974]
>
>Description:        50 p. ; 22 cm.
>
>Notes:              Cover title.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        574.503 I59A
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Brackley, Peter, 1923-
>
>Title:              Energy and environmental terms : a glossary / compiled by
>                       Peter Brackley.
>
>Subject(s):         Power resources--Dictionaries.
>                     Environmental protection--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Aldershot, Hants, England ; Brookfield, Vt., USA : Gower,
>                        c1988.
>
>Description:        ix, 189 p. : ill. ; 23 cm.
>
>Series:
>                     Energy papers ; no. 24
>
>Notes:              Series statement from jkt.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        333.790321 B797E
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Curl, James Stevens, 1937-
>
>Title:              English architecture : an illustrated glossary / James
>                       Stevens Curl ; with a foreword by Lord Muirshiel ; and
>                       drawings by John J. Sambrook.
>
>Subject(s):         Architecture--England--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Newton Abbot ; North Pomfret, Vt. : David & Charles,
>                       c1977.
>
>Description:        192 p. : ill. ; 26 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 189-191.
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        720.3 C975E
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Keen, Peter G. W.
>
>Title:              Every manager's guide to information technology : a
>                       glossary of key terms and concepts for today's business
>                       leaders / Peter G.W. Keen.
>
>Subject(s):         Information technology--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Boston, Mass. : Harvard Business School Press, c1991.
>
>Description:        viii, 170 p. ;  23 cm.
>
>Notes:              Includes index.
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        004.024658 K26E
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    Defense Systems Management College. Acquisition Policy
>                       Dept.
>
>Title:              Glossary : defense acquisition acronyms and terms.
>Variant Title:      Defense acquisition acronyms and terms
>
>Subject(s):         United States. Dept. of Defense--Procurement--Terminology.
>                     Weapons systems--United States--Purchasing--Terminology.
>                     Weapons systems--United States--Purchasing--Acronyms.
>
>Publisher:          Fort Belvoir, Va. : Dept. of Defense, Defense Systems
>                       Management College, Acquisition Policy Dept., 1998.
>
>Description:        9th ed.
>                     22, 136 p. ; 28 cm.
>
>Notes:              Shipping list no.: 99-0069-P.
>                     "November 1998."
>
>Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
>Call Number:        D 1.2:G 51/2/998
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Soule, James.
>Other Author(s):    American Society for Horticultural Science.
>
>Title:              Glossary for horticultural crops / James Soule ; sponsored
>                       by the American Society for Horticultural Science.
>
>Subject(s):         Horticulture--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          New York : Wiley, c1985.
>
>Description:        xxvi, 898 p. : ill. ; 27 cm.
>
>Notes:              Includes indexes.
>                     Bibliography: p. 679-692.
>                     #  c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        635.014 S722G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Walker, John Albert, 1938-
>
>Title:              Glossary of art, architecture, and design since 1945 :
>                       terms and labels describing movements styles and groups
>                       derived from the vocabulary of artists and critics /
>                       John A Walker.
>
>Subject(s):         Art--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          London : Bingley ; Hamden, Ct. : Linnet Books, 1977.
>
>Description:        2d rev. ed.
>                     352 p. ; 23 cm.
>
>Notes:              Includes bibliographical references and index.
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        709.04 W181G 1977
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        American Society for Testing and Materials.
>Other Author(s):    American Society for Testing and Materials. Committee E-8
>                       on Nomenclature and Definitions.
>
>Title:              Glossary of ASTM definitions, sponsored by ASTM Committee
>                       E-8 on Nomenclature and Definitions.
>
>Publisher:          Philadelphia, 1973.
>
>Description:        Second edition.
>                     540 p. illus.
>
>Notes:              "This second edition of the Glossary of ASTM Definitions
>                       is a compilation of all terms listed under the heading
>                       "Definitions" in the 1972 edition of the Annual Book of
>                       ASTM Standards."--Foreword.
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        603 A512G 1973
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Hopkins, Jeanne.
>
>Title:              [Astrophysical journal.
>                     Glossary of astronomy and astrophysics / Jeanne Hopkins ;
>                       foreword by S. Chandrasekhar.
>
>Subject(s):         Astronomy--Dictionaries.
>                     Astrophysics--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1980.
>
>Description:        2nd ed., rev. and enl.
>                     ix, 196 p. ; 24 cm.
>
>Notes:              "Published under the auspices of the Astrophysical
>                       journal"--verso t.p.
>                     497812  810601  Midwest  16.61
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        520.321 H794G 1980
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Glick, David M., 1936-
>
>Title:              Glossary of biochemistry and molecular biology / David M.
>                       Glick.
>
>Subject(s):         Biochemistry--Terminology.
>                     Molecular biology--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          London ; Miami : Portland Press, 1997.
>
>Description:        Rev. ed.
>                     214 p. ; 20 cm.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        572.03 G559 1997
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Jackson, Benjamin Daydon, 1846-1927.
>
>Title:              A glossary of botanic terms with their derivation and
>                       accent. By Benjamin Daydon Jackson ...
>
>Subject(s):         Botany--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          London, Duckworth; Philadelphia, J. B. Lippincott Company
>                       [1928]
>
>Description:        4th ed., rev., and enl.
>                     x, [2], 481 p. 22 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 478-481.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        580.3 J12G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Hampel, Clifford A.
>Other Author(s):    Hawley, Gessner Goodrich, 1905-
>
>Title:              Glossary of chemical terms / Clifford A. Hampel and
>                       Gessner G. Hawley.
>
>Subject(s):         Chemistry--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York : Van Nostrand Reinhold, c1982.
>
>Description:        2nd ed.
>                     ix, 306 p. ; 23 cm.
>
>Notes:              /517830  830912  Midwest  18.98
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        540.321 H229G 1982
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Isham, Norman Morrison, 1864-1943.
>Other Author(s):    Mercer, Henry Chapman, 1856-1930.
>
>Title:              A glossary of colonial architectural terms, by Norman
>                       Morrison Isham. With a bibliography of books,
> 1880-1930.
>                       The dating of old houses, by Henry C. Mercer.
>
>Subject(s):         Architecture, Colonial--Dictionaries.
>                     Art, Colonial--Bibliography.
>                     Historic buildings--Pennsylvania.
>
>Publisher:          [Watkins Glen, N.Y.] American Life  Foundation, 1968.
>
>Description:        [64] p. illus. 23 cm.
>
>Series:             Classic guidebooks to the visual arts
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. [59]-[64]
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        720.3 I79G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    United States. Bureau of Labor Statistics.
>
>Title:              Glossary of compensation terms.
>
>Subject(s):         United States. Bureau of Labor Statistics.
>
>Publisher:          Washington, DC (2 Massachusetts Ave., NE, Washington
>                       20212-0001) : U.S. Dept. of Labor, Bureau of Labor
>                       Statistics, [1998]
>
>Description:        74 p. ; 28 cm.
>
>Series:             Report ; 923
>
>Notes:              Shipping list no.: 98-0377-P.
>                     "August 1998."
>
>Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
>Call Number:        L 2.71:923
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    Mercer, John, 1918-
>                     Lyons, Timothy J. (Timothy James).
>
>Title:              Glossary of film terms / compiled by John Mercer ; James
>                       R. Crocker, compilation assistant ; review panel: Loren
>                       Cocking, Lee McConkey, Ken  Miura ; editor: Timothy J.
>                       Lyons ; editorial vice-president: Robert W. Wagner.
>
>Subject(s):         Motion pictures--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Philadelphia : University Film Association, 1978.
>
>Description:        91 p. ; 26 cm.
>
>Series:             University Film Association. Monograph, no. 2
>                     UFA monograph series
>
>Notes:              c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        791.43 G563
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        American Fisheries Society. Fish Health Section.
>Other Author(s):    Post, George.
>                     Klontz, William G.
>
>Title:              Glossary of fish health terms / editors, George Post and
>                       William G. Klontz.
>
>Subject(s):         Fishes--Diseases--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          [Bethesda, Md.] : American Fisheries Society, Fish Health
>                       Section, 1977.
>
>Description:        48 p. ; 28 cm.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        597.003 A512
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Rieger, Rigomar.
>Other Author(s):    Michaelis, Arnd.
>                     Green, Melvin M.
>                     Rieger, Rigomar.
>
>Title:              A glossary of genetics and cytogenetics, classical and
>                       molecular.
>
>Subject(s):         Genetics--Dictionaries.
>                     Cytogenetics--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Berlin, New York, [etc.] Springer-Verlag, 1968.
>
>Description:        3rd ed. completely revised by Rigomar Rieger, Arnd
>                       Michaelis [and] Melvin M. Green.
>                     506 p. illus. 22 cm.
>
>Notes:              "The first and second editions of this book were published
>                       in German ... under the title: Genetisches und
>                       cytogenetisches Wörterbuch."
>                     Bibliography: p. 462-[506]
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        575.103 R554G 1968
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Biass-Ducroux, Françoise.
>Other Author(s):    Napp-Zinn, Klaus, 1927-
>
>Title:              Glossary of genetics in English, French, Spanish, Italian,
>                       German, Russian. Compiled and arranged by Françoise
>                       Biass-Ducroux in collaboration with Klaus Napp-Zinn.
>                       Russian translation by Nikolaj V. Luchnik.
>
>Subject(s):         Genetics--Dictionaries--Polyglot.
>                     Dictionaries, Polyglot.
>
>Publisher:          Amsterdam, New York, Elsevier Pub. Co., 1970.
>
>Description:        x, 436 p. 20 cm.
>
>Series:             Glossaria interpretum ; 16
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        575.103 B579G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Bates, Robert Latimer, 1912-
>Other Author(s):    Jackson, Julia A., 1939-
>
>Title:              Glossary of geology / Robert L. Bates and Julia A.
>                       Jackson, editors.
>
>Subject(s):         Geology--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Alexandria, Va. : American Geological Institute, 1987.
>
>Description:        3rd ed.
>                     x, 788 p. ; 26 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p.
>                     bj  c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        550.3 B329G 1987
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Pinney, Edward Lowell, 1925-
>Other Author(s):    Slipp, Samuel.
>
>Title:              Glossary of group and family therapy / Edward L. Pinney,
>                       Jr. and Samuel Slipp.
>
>Subject(s):         Group psychotherapy--Terminology.
>                     Family psychotherapy--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          New York : Brunner/Mazel, c1982.
>
>Description:        xvii, 149 p. ; 21 cm.
>
>Notes:              510434  820928  Midwest  14.26
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        616.8915 P656G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    United States. Dept. of Health and Human Services.
>
>Title:              Glossary of HIV/AIDS-related terms.
>Variant Title:      Glossary of HIV/AIDS related terms.
>
>Subject(s):         AIDS (Disease)--United States.
>                     HIV infections--United States.
>
>Publisher:          [Rockville, Md.? : Dept. of Health & Human Services,
>                       [1995]
>
>Description:        111 p. ; 22 cm.
>
>Notes:              Shipping list no.: 96-0075-P.
>                     "June 1995."
>
>Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
>Call Number:        HE 1.2:G 51
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Pei, Mario, 1901-
>
>Title:              Glossary of linguistic terminology [by] Mario Pei.
>
>Subject(s):         Linguistics--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York, Columbia University Press, 1966.
>
>Description:        xvi, 299 p. 21 cm.
>
>Notes:              c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        410.3 P377G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    Huschke, R. E. (Ralph E.), 1925-
>                     American Meteorological Society.
>
>Title:              Glossary of meteorology. Edited by Ralph E. Huschke.
>
>Subject(s):         Meteorology--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Boston, American Meteorological Society, 1959.
>
>Description:        viii, 638 p. 24 cm.
>
>Notes:              "Sponsored by U.S. Department of Commerce, Weather Bureau
>                       [and others]"
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        551.503 G563
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Joint Electron Device Engineering Council. Solid State
>                       Products Council.
>
>Title:              Glossary of microelectronic terms, definitions, and
>                       symbols / formulated by JEDEC Solid State Product
>                       Council.
>
>Subject(s):         Microelectronics--Terminology.
>                     Microelectronics--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Washington : Electronic Industries Association,
>                       Engineering Department, 1977.
>
>Description:        [Rev. ed.]
>                     61 p. (in various pagings) : ill. ; 28 cm.
>
>Series:             Publication - JEDEC ; no. 99
>
>Notes:              Includes index.
>                     466032  780427  Pub. 5.40
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        621.3817 J74G 1977
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Amstutz, G. C. (Gerhardt Christian), 1922-
>Other Author(s):    Aguilar, O.
>
>Title:              Glossary of mining geology. In English, Spanish, French
>                       and German. By G. C. Amstutz. In cooperation with O.
>                       Aguilar, A. Bernard, F. El Baz, a.o.
>
>Subject(s):         Geology, Economic--Dictionaries--Polyglot.
>                     Mining engineering--Dictionaries--Polyglot.
>                     Dictionaries, Polyglot.
>
>Publisher:          Stuttgart, Enke Verlag, 1971.
>
>Description:        xi, 197 p. with illus. 22 cm.
>
>Notes:              Imprint covered by label: Elsevier Pub. Co., Amsterdam.
>                     Bibliography: p. 161.
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        553.03 A528G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Evans, Anthony.
>
>Title:              Glossary of molecular biology / A. Evans.
>
>Subject(s):         Molecular biology--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York : Wiley, [1975] c1974.
>
>Description:        55 p. ; 23 cm.
>
>Notes:              "A Halsted Press book."
>                     Bibliography: p. 51-55.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        574.8803 E92G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Cranston, Maurice William, 1920-
>Other Author(s):    Lakoff, Sanford A.
>
>Title:              [Glossary of political terms
>                     A glossary of political ideas, edited by Maurice Cranston
>                       and Sanford A. Lakoff.
>
>Subject(s):         Political science--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          New York, Basic Books [1969]
>
>Description:        xii, 180 p. 22 cm.
>
>Series:             Culture & discovery
>
>Notes:              1966 ed. has title: A glossary of political terms.
>                     Includes bibliographies.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        320.03 C891G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Sessoms, H. Douglas (Hanson Douglas)
>Other Author(s):    National Recreation and Park Association.
>
>Title:              Glossary of recreation and park terms.
>
>Subject(s):         Recreation--Terminology.
>                     Parks--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          Arlington, Va., National Recreation and Park Association,
>                       1972.
>
>Description:        43 p. 23 cm.
>
>Series:             Management aids ; bull. no. 95
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        790.02 N277M
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Cloud, Sherrill.
>Other Author(s):    National Center for Higher Education Management Systems.
>
>Title:              A glossary of standard terminology for postsecondary
>                       education 1978-79 / compiled by Sherrill Cloud.
>
>Subject(s):         Education, Higher--United States--Dictionaries.
>                     Universities and colleges--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          Boulder, Colo. : National Center for Higher Education
>                       Management Systems, [1979?]
>
>Description:        x, 109 p. ; 23 cm.
>
>Notes:              483157  791031  Baker & Taylor  5.00
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        378 C647G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        National Fluid Power Association.
>
>Title:              Glossary of terms for fluid power.
>
>Subject(s):         Fluid mechanics--Dictionaries.
>                     Hydraulic engineering--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Thiensville, Wis., 1965.
>
>Description:        4th interim ed.
>                     30 p. ; 28 cm.
>
>Notes:              c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        532 N277A
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        National Research Council (U.S.). Conference on Glossary
>                       of Terms in Nuclear Science and Technology.
>
>Title:              A glossary of terms in nuclear science and technology.
>
>Subject(s):         Nuclear energy--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York, American Society of Mechanical Engineers [1957]
>
>Description:        a-e, 188 p. diagrs. 22 cm.
>
>Series:             ASME standard ; 110
>
>Notes:              c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>                     c.1 Temporarily Shelved at REFERENCE COLLECTION
>                       (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        539.76 N2778G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Gough, Henry, 1821-1906.
>
>Title:              A glossary of terms used in heraldry [by] Henry Gough &
>                       James Parker.
>
>Subject(s):         Heraldry--Great Britain.
>                     Heraldry--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          [Detroit] Gale Research Co., 1966.
>
>Description:        New ed. Oxford, J. Parker, 1894.
>                     xxviii, 659 p. illus., coats of arms. 23 cm.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        929.6 G692G 1966
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Stone, George Cameron.
>
>Title:              A glossary of the construction, decoration and use of arms
>                       and armor in all countries and in all times, together
>                       with some closely related subjects.
>
>Subject(s):         Weapons--Dictionaries.
>                     Armor--Dictionaries
>
>Publisher:          New York, Jack Brussel, Pub. [c1961]
>
>Description:        694 p. illus. 30 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 687-694.
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        739.7 S877G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Conseil international de la langue française.
>Other Author(s):    Brace, Paul.
>
>Title:              Glossary of the environment ; with French and German
>                       equivalents / Conseil international de la langue
>                       française ; adapted by Paul Brace ; foreword by René
>                       Dubos.
>
>Subject(s):         Human ecology--Dictionaries.
>                     Environmental protection--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York : Praeger, 1977.
>
>Description:        xi, 117 p. ; 24 cm.
>
>Series:             Praeger special studies in international economics and
>                       development
>
>Notes:              Includes index.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        301.3103 C755G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Williams, G. L.
>Other Author(s):    Sarjeant, William Antony S.
>                     Kidson, Evan J. (Evan Joseph), 1930-
>                     American Association of Stratigraphic Palynologists.
>
>Title:              A glossary of the terminology applied to dinoflagellate
>                       amphiesmae and cysts and acritarchs / by Graham L.
>                       Williams, William A. S. Sarjeant, Evan J. Kidson.
>
>Subject(s):         Dinoflagellates, Fossil--Terminology.
>                     Acritarchs--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          [s.l.] : American Association of Stratigraphic
>                       Palynologists, 1978.
>
>Description:        1978 ed.
>                     121 p., [1] leaf of plates : ill. ; 28 cm.
>
>Series:             Contributions series - American Association of
>                       Stratigraphic Palynologists ; no. 2A
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 84-90.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        561.13 W723G 1978
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    Geer, Ira W.
>
>Title:              Glossary of weather and climate : with related oceanic and
>                       hydrologic terms / edited by Ira W. Geer.
>
>Subject(s):         Meteorology--Dictionaries.
>                     Climatology--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Boston, Mass. : American Meteorological Society, 1996.
>
>Description:        vi, 272 p. ; 24 cm.
>
>Notes:              Includes bibliographical references (p. 271-271).
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        551.503 G5634
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Etter, Lewis E.
>
>Title:              Glossary of words and phrases used in radiology, nuclear
>                       medicine, and ultrasound. Prepared from various sources
>                       for medical secretaries, X-ray technicians, medical
>                       students, and residents in radiology by Lewis E. Etter.
>                       With a section on suggested terminology for
>                       roentgenological reports, devised by Doctors Fisher,
>                       Bovard, and Bacon for the Pennsylvania Radiological
>                       Society. Foreword (1st ed.) by Olive G. Johnson.
>                       Foreword (2d ed.) by Patricia Warchock.
>
>Subject(s):         Radiology, Medical--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Springfield, Ill., C.C. Thomas [1970]
>
>Description:        2d ed.
>                     xxv, 355 p. 26 cm.
>
>Notes:              "New revised edition."
>                     First ed. published in 1960 under title: Glossary of
> words
>                       and phrases used in radiology and nuclear medicine.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        616.07 E85G 1970
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Hurov, L.
>
>Title:              Handbook of veterinary surgical instruments and glossary
>                       of surgical terms / L. Hurov, with the assistance of K.
>                       Knauer, R. Playter, R. Sexton.
>
>Subject(s):         Veterinary surgery--Instruments.
>                     Veterinary surgery--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          Philadelphia : Saunders, 1978.
>
>Description:        x, 214 p. : ill. ; 27 cm.
>
>Notes:              Includes indexes.
>                     471024 781031 Midwest 18.09
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        636.089 H966H
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    Prytherch, R. J. (Raymond John)
>
>Title:              Harrod's librarians' glossary of terms used in
>                       librarianship, documentation and the book crafts and
>                       reference book / compiled by Ray Prytherch.
>
>Subject(s):         Library science--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Aldershot : Gower, 1987.
>
>Description:        6th ed.
>                     x, 855 p. ; 22 cm.
>
>Notes:              /
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        010.3 H323L 1987
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Camden-Carroll Library
>Morehead State University
>(606)783-2200


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Wed Nov 10 20:38:41 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:38:41 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.153841.0500.>

Well, I don't know whether linguistics and literary criticism are
considered "professions" (rather than disciplines?  With the first
request, I assumed you were looking for the sorts of things that people
don't get BAs and PhDs in, but rather MFAs, BSs, whatever), but here are
the discipline-specialized dictionaries on my shelf:

Mario Pei and Frank Gaynor's _Dictionary of Linguistics_, Philosophical
Library, 1954.
    Sure, it's old, but it was free and it's useful for looking up
obscure case names or phonetic terms.  But didn't Bill Ladusaw (for some
reason I don't understand...) do a dictionary of phonetics  (or maybe
that was a symbol guide)?  My colleague-to-be, Larry Trask, did _A
Dictionary of Grammatical Terms in Linguistics_ (Routledge, 1993), which
I suppose I should acquire soon to replace the Pei.

Ross Murfin and Supryia Ray's _The Bedford Glossary of Critical and
Literary Terms_, 1997.
    Even though it's called a "glossary", its entries aren't
glosses--they're more encyclopedic.  The entry for "Marxist criticism"
is 7 pp. long.  Helps me figure out the mysteries of my colleagues'
course descriptions...

Richard Spears' _NTC's Dictionary of Grammar Terminology_, 1991.
    Helpful for using pedagogical grammar books, but seems like it's
pitched to a linguistically much less sophisticated audience--probably
educationists.  Intro says it's pitched to "the needs of students and
teachers alike."

I've often used the web to check  specialized terminology  and found a
lot of glossaries there. I can't think off-hand of any that I used (one
was about wall-paper hanging, but I don't know the URL).  I don't know
whether web glossaries count for your study, but some of them, I think,
are web versions of printed things, and that might be a quick way to
find things that are not only out there, but are also being used.

Lynne


--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP  Thu Nov 11 00:13:46 1999
From: dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP (Daniel Long)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:13:46 +0900
Subject: Navajo code-talkers
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.091346.0900.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is a lot of information at this military site, including a dictionary.

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-1.htm
          American Indian Medal of Honor Winners
          Navajo Code Talkers in World War II: A Bibliography
          Navajo Code Talker Fact Sheet
          Navajo Code Talker Dictionary
Danny Long

--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-426-77-2184
Japanese Language and Literature Dept.    fax  +81-426-77-2140
Tokyo Metropolitan University
1-1 Minami Osawa, Hachioji-shi, Tokyo  192-0397 Japan
mailto:dlong at bcomp.metro-u.ac.jp
http://nihongo.human.metro-u.ac.jp/long/


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Thu Nov 11 01:32:53 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:32:53 -0500
Subject: CD_Rom?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991110181556.00ba52d0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.203253.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

>A CD-Rom search any of us should be able to do, right?  As I tell my
>students!  Ditto for pub info: They give me a Bib. with a book or article
>title and say they don't know where it came from; I tell 'em, "Look it
up!"

Perhaps I am missing something, but I don't understand how a CD-Rom search
will tell me which professional glossaries are excellent or even fairly
decent.

???

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Thu Nov 11 01:34:49 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:34:49 -0500
Subject: More re glossaries
In-Reply-To: <3829D7D0.81604AFE@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.203449.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu> wrote:
Well, I don't know whether linguistics and literary criticism are
considered "professions" (rather than disciplines?  With the first
request, I assumed you were looking for the sorts of things that people
don't get BAs and PhDs in, but rather MFAs, BSs, whatever), but here are
the discipline-specialized dictionaries on my shelf:

And do you rate them all as excellent? Or decent?

Thanks,
Bethany


From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 11 01:53:50 1999
From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:53:50 PST
Subject: NYC/NO similarities
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.175350.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David Bergdahl writes:

>it's in AMERICAN TALK: WHERE OUR WORDS CAME FROM that [JL Dillard]
>attributes the resemblance to maritime pidgin influence on
>both.  See the chapter on "New Orleans and Louisiana" esp. pp. 46ff.

The above book is from 1976, I think. But in a later collection, edited by
J.L. Dillard, called "Perspectives on American English" (1980), there is an
article by someone (not Dillard) which goes into more detail on that
particular [@I] vowel and the commercial contacts between NYC and NO.
Unfortunately, I never actually read this article (some faculty member had
the book checked out -- 12 month loan).

DEj

P.S. Regarding the theory that NYC was rhotic originally and became
non-rhotic under New England influence: so Wolfram/Schilling-Estes got it
from Downes, but does anyone know where Downes got it from?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Thu Nov 11 01:56:29 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:56:29 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries
In-Reply-To: <38298E9E.C81398BC@bcomp.metro-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.205629.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Daniel Long wrote:
>I am afraid I didn't understand what you meant by "professional glossary".
>Maybe others did, but perhaps it would increase responses if you gave a
>little example.  Does this mean a glossary of terms that only
>archaeologists (etc.) use?
>One more suggestion:  If you want responses to an academic query, put
>something like "Flat-headed" or "Baptists" or "Cheese curds" in the subject
>line.

Good suggestions, Danny. Thanks.

I gather that this topic is of little interest to anyone else -- I'll
drop it -- but be happy to respond to private queries.

Bethany, harmless drudge wannabe


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 02:08:20 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:08:20 EST
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.210820.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bethany writes:

>>Do you have pub info?<<

Corrected full information:
M.H. Abrams. A Glossary of Literary Terms. 7th edition. Harcourt Brace, 1998.
ISBN: 015505452X

>>(So a glossary CAN be a work of art? So far my criteria for excellence
have been completeness, accuracy, and relevance.)<<

It's complete, though not exhaustive; accurate not only in connotation but in
denotation; relevant to classical and contemporary literary scholarship and
criticism. Primarily concerned with English-language literature. Abrams is a
great literary historian and critic himself, and is of course the chief
editor of the Norton Anthology of English Literature. Many of his entries
are, I think, works of art as well as science. - Allan Metcalf


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Nov 11 02:04:21 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:04:21 -0800
Subject: Writing question -Reply
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.180421.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Elizabeth Gregory wrote:
>
> In terms of typography, Colin Wheildon has done several studies on the effect of all-capitals versus capitals-and-lower-case (among many other variables, like serif versus sans-serif type, reversed type on a dark background, etc.) on readability and comprehension.
>
> He reports his findings in _Type and Layout_ (1996, Strathmoor Press).
>
> I'm not aware of similar research done for other media, such as computer screens, etc., or for handwriting.
>
> A quick synthesis of the theory of type, design, and readability I've read:
>
> For passages of text (as opposed to headings or headlines), anything that makes letters look more different from each other aids readability, by allowing words to be read more quickly and easily.
>
> In all-caps, all the letters are basically the same shape (a large square), so an important means of differentiation is lost. Each letter must be recognized individually, so reading becomes slower and more tedious.
>

Thanks very much, Elizabeth.  I'll take a look.

One of the points I'd like to make and back up with research is the
capitalization of words which don't require it.  Admittedly, English has vague
capitalization rules when it comes to software interfaces, but people
(especially those whose English is not native) tend to capitalize everything but
conjunctions and pronouns.  I maintain that this makes for a user interface
which is more difficult to read.

This may be a function of what meaning English readers normally assign to a
capitalized word.  At least this is my belief, based on my own reaction.  I stop
at a capitalized word because I expect it to be less familiar or require more
processing, like a place name, or the name of a person.

Andrea


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 02:46:14 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:46:14 EST
Subject: research on "like"?
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.214614.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/10/1999 10:30:34 PM, dmilstein at WELLESLEY.EDU writes:

<< Can anyone suggest references or research about the use of the word
"like"? >>

yes


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Thu Nov 11 04:13:12 1999
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:13:12 -0800
Subject: research on "like"?
In-Reply-To: <fc.006640d80038ba57006640d80038ba57.38bb5e@FirstClass.wellesley.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.201312.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A former professor of mine was doing research, I believe, on the meaning of
like for "It was, like, cool." If you are interested, I can forward your
e-mail.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

------Original Message-----
-From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
-
-Can anyone suggest references or research about the use of the word "like"?
-
-Like, thanks!
-Debbie


From dmilstein at WELLESLEY.EDU  Thu Nov 11 04:27:25 1999
From: dmilstein at WELLESLEY.EDU (Deborah F. Milstein)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:27:25 -0500
Subject: research on "like"?
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLADGECHFGAAAKHDNEENMCIAA.gogaku@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.232725.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, do forward my message, please.


From benaaron at CC.HELSINKI.FI  Thu Nov 11 11:10:25 1999
From: benaaron at CC.HELSINKI.FI (Diana Ben-Aaron)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:10:25 +0200
Subject: CAPITALS, glossaries, "like"
In-Reply-To: <199911110504.HAA09263@post.it.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.131025.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Concatenating replies to save header space; sorry if it inconveniences
anyone.

1. CAPITAL LETTERS.  Everything that has been said so far jibes with what
I've heard. Two devil's advocate questions:

a) If capital letters are harder to read, why was the old typewriter font
called Orator, designed for typing speeches in big letters, an all-caps
font?  OK, there were large caps and small caps, but they were all caps.

b) If letters without ascenders and descenders are harder to read, how has
e.g. the Cyrillic alphabet survived without significant modification?
One of the reasons I've had a hard time learning to read Russian, Hebrew,
Chinese, etc. is that these require making fine discriminations about
features in the interior of a character, rather than just recognizing the
overall shape of a word.

2. GLOSSARIES.  Some volumes that I have liked are: the Oxford Dictionary
of Literary Terms (very spotty coverage, but good as far as it goes),
the Larousse Mathematical Dictionary, and Barron's Dictionary of Computer
Terms (from the 1980s, pocket sized and bound in green vinyl).  There is a
book called Understanding Wall Street that has an excellent brief
financial glossary in the back.

3. "LIKE."  Pragmatic particles and discourse particles are studied mainly
in the subfields of linguistics called pragmatics and conversation
analysis.  My supervisor here, Jan-Ola Östman, wrote an early monograph on
"you know" (You Know: A Discourse-Functional Approach, Benjamins 1981),
and a great deal of research has been done since then. To find the latest
work on "like," I suggest you look in linguistics bibliographies using the
search terms "pragmatic particles" and "discourse particles."

Diana ben-Aaron
University of Helsinki


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 05:18:32 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:18:32 EST
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.001832.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A number of studies in reading research emphasize the importance of visual
perception and visual discrimination.  At the earliest stages of reading
(readiness),  children are taught these skills through recognition of the
shapes of words (configuration clues).  Only lowercase letters are used, for
they have the most distinguishable shapes, for example, curly tails (g's),
ascending and descending lines,  and circles.  The ability to recognize these
patterns promotes rapid word recognition, or quick perception,  and visual
dicrimination among beginning and mature readers, both of whom employ some
form of perception and discrimination as  reading strategies.   When all caps
are used, however, visual perception is impeded, for most of these
distinguishing characteristics are lost, and so, too, is the ability to
readily differentiate one letter from another (again, visual discrimination).
  In essence,  in passages with all caps, everything is salient!  There is no
background.

Since perception is a term borrowed from psychology, you might check not only
reading research on visual perception and discrimination but also figure
ground studies.
                                PAT


From dmilstein at WELLESLEY.EDU  Thu Nov 11 02:16:42 1999
From: dmilstein at WELLESLEY.EDU (Deborah F. Milstein)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:16:42 -0500
Subject: research on "like"?
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.211642.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can anyone suggest references or research about the use of the word "like"?

Like, thanks!
Debbie


From simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM  Thu Nov 11 13:08:23 1999
From: simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM (beth lee simon)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:08:23 -0500
Subject: research on "like"?
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.080823.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Try DARE, Volume III


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Thu Nov 11 13:27:08 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 05:27:08 -0800
Subject: Query: AAVE, Bidialectualism
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.052708.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This query came into the ADS web site. Please respond directly to the user, not to
me.


Sir, My name is Kathleen Jones. I am currently beginning work on my
dissertation in Adult Education at UGA. My work involves the creation of a
classroom environment conducive to the instuction in bidilectualism for
African American adults experiencing difficulty in the work world due to
their use of AAVE.
    I have taught high school English for 15 years in an inner-city Augusta
high school with a student body that is 85% African American. I fully
recognize the fact that many of our graduates end up in developmental English
classes when they enter 4 year institutions or technical institutions. They
leave us unprepared,....but not from lack of exposure to SAE.
     I also instruct in English 101 and 191 night classes at a local
technical school. The use of AAVE also creates difficulties in written work
in these classes. These students have little concept of bidialectualism....
     I understand that identify issues, power dynamics, and several other
issues are involved here. I am seeking direction into material that speaks to
these issues. I have read Gee, some Baugh, Collins, hooks, and many others.
Still feel that there is a void in my research.
     Suggestions, criticism, reflections...everything and anything you can
throw my way would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you.

Kathleen Jones
KJones1311 at aol.com


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Thu Nov 11 13:59:23 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:59:23 -0600
Subject: CAPITALS,
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.075923.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Ben-Aaron <benaaron at CC.HELSINKI.FI>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 5:10 AM
Subject: CAPITALS, glossaries, "like"


Concatenating replies to save header space; sorry if it inconveniences
anyone.

1. CAPITAL LETTERS.  Everything that has been said so far jibes with what
I've heard. Two devil's advocate questions:

a) If capital letters are harder to read, why was the old typewriter font
called Orator, designed for typing speeches in big letters, an all-caps
font?  OK, there were large caps and small caps, but they were all caps.

b) If letters without ascenders and descenders are harder to read, how has
e.g. the Cyrillic alphabet survived without significant modification?
One of the reasons I've had a hard time learning to read Russian, Hebrew,
Chinese, etc. is that these require making fine discriminations about
features in the interior of a character, rather than just recognizing the
overall shape of a word.

I've never worked with Chinese; however, I suspect that religion
had much to do with preserving both the Hebrew and Russian
alphabets with minimal change.  For real fun in Russian, have you
tried tackling Russian handwriting?  As for ORATOR, perhaps it
served the function in speaking that "qwerty" did in typing.  ;{)  Scott


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 14:32:09 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:32:09 EST
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request (correction)
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.093209.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<< accurate not only in connotation but in denotation >>

um, I meant, of course,

accurate not only in denotation but in connotation

- Allan Metcalf


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Thu Nov 11 16:26:28 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:26:28 -0700
Subject: Writing question, "the wife"
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.092628.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>Thanks very much, Elizabeth.  I'll take a look.
>
>One of the points I'd like to make and back up with research is the
>capitalization of words which don't require it.  Admittedly, English has
vague
>capitalization rules when it comes to software interfaces, but people
>(especially those whose English is not native) tend to capitalize
everything but
>conjunctions and pronouns.  I maintain that this makes for a user interface
>which is more difficult to read.
>
>This may be a function of what meaning English readers normally assign to a
>capitalized word.  At least this is my belief, based on my own reaction.  I
stop
>at a capitalized word because I expect it to be less familiar or require
more
>processing, like a place name, or the name of a person.
>
>Andrea

I just had an interesting site forwarded to me concerning capitalization. In
it I found the sentence, "Can there be a more lovely place in the Whole
World?" The speaker was talking about Wisconsin. So...does the
capitalization emphasize Wisconsin or the world, or is it just a mistake?

Also, growing up in Wisconsin I never encountered "the wife" much (or I just
don't remember), but I noticed this site referred to "the wife" several
times. In fact, it never says "my wife." During the "the" discussion, I had
never considered it as a Wisconsin peculiarity, but it appears I was wrong.

Just in case anyone is interested in checking out the grammar of a
Wisconsinite, the site is http://belle.pcpros.net/~grandma/wisconsin.html

Amy


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 16:39:52 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:39:52 EST
Subject: Research on "like"?
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.113952.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<<Try DARE, Volume III>>

And check the back issues of AMERICAN SPEECH


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Thu Nov 11 18:49:44 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:49:44 -0800
Subject: Etymology of "Rx"
In-Reply-To: <0.44582c1e.255c5f3e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.104944.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This hardly sets the record straight, but I have always heard that it is
an abbreviation for some form the Latin verb recipio -ere. The "R" is
understandable and the "x" is a medieval Latin ligature for a combination
of letters which forms the abbreviation "Rx". The "x" sign probably
doesn't represent an "x" since Latin only uses an "x" to represent the
Greek letter "ksi" in Greek loan words.
I also doubt the bit about Juppiter since the Roman god of medicine was
Aesculapius (from Greek Asklepios), and one would think that it would be
him who would be invoked to bless medicine (him, or perhaps Apollo Medicus
(cf. Latte. Roemische Religionsgeschichte).
I can probably provide a less speculative answer tomorrow when I get back
to campus.

There are a number of examples of medieval letters, or forms of letters
have been misinterpreted in modern times, the most common being "Ye olde
..." where the Y represents the obsolete (in English anyway) character the
thorn (="th"). I remember hearing or reading somewhere that French plurals
ending in -x go back to the fact that in old French handwriting the final
-s had the shape of something like an -x and that it is now just
orthographic convention to write -x for -s--but someone on this list MUST
no more about French than I do, and if I'm completely off base, I hope
they will set me straight.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu



On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 MARYPROTO at AOL.COM wrote:

> I edit a newsletter called Copy Editor, and one of our columnists has
> submitted an article in which he writes:
>
> "What about the origin of 'Rx'? It may have been an abbreviation of the Latin
> _recipe,_ meaning 'take,' or a representation of the sign for Jupiter, which
> 'Rx' vaguely resembles. The sign on ancient prescriptions invoked the deity's
> blessing on the medicine."
>
> Every dictionary I've checked gives only the Latin "recipe" in the etymology
> of "Rx" (if the dictionary lists "Rx" at all). I told the writer, who then
> faxed me an article from FDA Consumer Magazine, which says:
>
> "Where does the 'Rx' for 'prescriptions' come from? Its origins are given
> variously as an abbreviation of the Latin word 'recipe,' meaning 'take,' or
> as a representation of the astrological sign of Jupiter [SIGN HERE]. This
> sign was placed on ancient prescriptions to invoke that deity's blessing on
> the medicine to help the person get well. More recently, the cross at the end
> of the 'R' has been explained as a substitute period."
>
> I'm suspicious of the Jupiter connection, not only because of the source of
> the information but also because the planet's sign looks nothing like "Rx."
> Can anybody set the record straight for me? Many thanks.
>
> Mary Beth Protomastro
> Editor and Publisher
> Copy Editor: Language News for the Publishing Profession
> marybeth at copyeditor.com or maryproto at aol.com
> http://www.copyeditor.com
>


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Thu Nov 11 17:22:25 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:22:25 -0500
Subject: like
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.122225.0500.>

I know I have lots of things on "like", but this is the only one that
shows up on a search of "like" in my personal bibliographical database.

Adams, Michael.  About "Like" in Berks County, Pennsylvania.  American
Speech 68:4.439-40.

But...
other places to look are:
- articles on indirect quotation--I know Adrienne Lehrer's done a few,
but I don't know if she specifically discusses "like" ("She was
like...");  For some reason I think Geofrey Nunberg did an article on
this, but I don't seem to own it.
- articles/books on discourse particles, such as Deborah Schiffrin's
book _Discourse Markers_ and Lawrence Schourup's book (dissertation?),
whose title I don't have off-hand.

I had a seminar on discourse particles in grad school, and we talked
about "like" a lot...

Lynne


--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From MARYPROTO at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 18:04:46 1999
From: MARYPROTO at AOL.COM (MARYPROTO at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:04:46 EST
Subject: Etymology of "Rx"
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.130446.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I edit a newsletter called Copy Editor, and one of our columnists has
submitted an article in which he writes:

"What about the origin of 'Rx'? It may have been an abbreviation of the Latin
_recipe,_ meaning 'take,' or a representation of the sign for Jupiter, which
'Rx' vaguely resembles. The sign on ancient prescriptions invoked the deity's
blessing on the medicine."

Every dictionary I've checked gives only the Latin "recipe" in the etymology
of "Rx" (if the dictionary lists "Rx" at all). I told the writer, who then
faxed me an article from FDA Consumer Magazine, which says:

"Where does the 'Rx' for 'prescriptions' come from? Its origins are given
variously as an abbreviation of the Latin word 'recipe,' meaning 'take,' or
as a representation of the astrological sign of Jupiter [SIGN HERE]. This
sign was placed on ancient prescriptions to invoke that deity's blessing on
the medicine to help the person get well. More recently, the cross at the end
of the 'R' has been explained as a substitute period."

I'm suspicious of the Jupiter connection, not only because of the source of
the information but also because the planet's sign looks nothing like "Rx."
Can anybody set the record straight for me? Many thanks.

Mary Beth Protomastro
Editor and Publisher
Copy Editor: Language News for the Publishing Profession
marybeth at copyeditor.com or maryproto at aol.com
http://www.copyeditor.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 11 19:20:46 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:20:46 -0500
Subject: like
In-Reply-To: <382AFB51.D577AFB8@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.142046.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's some citations of articles about _like_ (I apologize if any of
these have already been posted here):

Underhill, "_Like_ is, Like, Focus," American Speech 63 (1988): 234-46.

Blyth et al., "I'm Like, 'Say What?!': A New Quotative in American Oral
Narrative," American Speech 65 (1990): 215-27.

Ferrara & Bell, "Sociolinguistic Variation and Discourse Function of
Constructed Dialogue Introducers: The Case of _be_ + _like_," American
Speech 70: 265-90.

Gee, this American Speech looks like a pretty interesting journal!


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Nov 11 18:54:46 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:54:46 -0800
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.105446.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"James E. Clapp" wrote:
>
>
> When words that are not normally capitalized are capitalized it slows me down
> because in reading my mind gives those words a little extra stress.  (Then
> often they slow me down more because I get annoyed that I was duped into
> giving special stress to words that really didn't need it, and annoyed that
> conventional capitalization rules readers rely upon [capitalization signifies
> proper noun] are being disregarded, and annoyed at the affectation [it's like
> Cosmo-style overuse of italics], and so on; but that's probably just me.)
>

Not just you, I assure you.  One of the reasons I want to have some research to
back up my claim is that I want to get folks in the computer industry, including
the tech writers, to stop capitalizing a word just because it might be a
computer term or command somewhere somehow.  Tech writing and user interfaces
should not be special in this regard, and I believe the excess capitalization
makes for an unfriendly interface.  It certainly bugs me.

> I'm sure the caps are often thrown in not to give special emphasis but just
> because the writer has a vague feeling that important words, especially nouns,
> are supposed to be capitalized.  I suspect that much capitalization of this
> sort is really quite unconscious.

<rantlet>
And born of ignorance.  English isn't German.  Heck, these days, German isn't
German.
</rantlet>

>
> Come to think of it, another thing that slows me down is writing with no caps.
> When i see writing in which words or names or abbreviations that would
> conventionally be capitalized are not--which seldom occurs in the ads list--i
> find it quite distracting.  This obviously has nothing to do with the inherent
> features of the I-shape as distinguished from the i-shape: Much of what makes
> text readable or not is just a question of whether the conventions that people
> are accustomed to from a lifetime of reading are followed.  Anything that
> departs from the convention tends to cause a little hiccup.

not an e.e.cummings fan, eh?

>
> Of course, change can occur, and new conventions can replace old.  See, e.g.,
> the free and frequent capitalization in the Declaration of Independence and
> the capitalization of virtually all nouns in the Constitution of the United
> States.
>

But Those Words were Important, Weren't They?

(No kidding, that's the way many messages are capitalized when I get them.)

Andrea


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 11 18:48:17 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:48:17 -0400
Subject: born-again (was Christian suggestion)
In-Reply-To: <19991110.171320.13758.0.pskuhlman@juno.com>
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.144817.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>     True story.  A friend of mine who was a social worker in Texas
>overheard this interchange between a Texan client and a newly arrived
>social worker from New York.  The client says:  "Are you lost or are you
>found?"  The truly puzzled newcomer to the land of born-again Christians
>replied without missing a beat:  "I'm from New York."
>     I'm from New York via northern Illinois, so I have no idea whether
>lost and found are common terms for unsaved and saved, but I think it's a
>great story.  It sounds apocryphal, but my friend swears on the Bible
>that it's true.
>
>Patricia Kuhlman
>Brooklyn, NY
>pskuhlman at juno.com

Well, even non-Christians might be familiar with the minimal pair from the
first stanza of "Amazing Grace":

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me;
I once was lost, but now I'm found,   <--
Was blind, but now I see.


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Thu Nov 11 19:49:11 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:49:11 -0700
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.124911.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ouch, to the tech writers! As a technical writer myself, I often find it
frustrating that software developers don't know or care about proper
capitalization conventions. I worked for one software company that allowed
me to go to the developers with my corrections. The company for which I
currently work does not take suggestions from technical writers. And, of
course, once they do something wrong once, it has to remain incorrect for
consistency's sake. Frustrating, indeed. Especially when I am forced to use
their mistakes in my writing.

As a general rule, program titles (or dialog box titles) should be
capitalized as book titles ... all word capitalized except for prepositions
and conjunctions (but never with CAPS LOCK!). Field names are a gray area.
Microsoft capitalizes only the first letter of a word or phrase. Other
companies like to capitalize field names as they would program titles.
Whatever the company decides, the convention must be carried over into the
documentation. For all other text, I always follow the rules any dope can
learn in high school English.

In my experience, most technical writers are not actively involved in the
decisions of these conventions. Some may be poor editors. In any case, I
certainly agree with Andrea that software developers need to agree to a
standard (preferably Standard English rules) and stick with it. This is
necessary for a quality intuitive user interface (clarity, accuracy, etc.).
I would love to be more involved in presentation issues that involve words.
However, until programmers understand that tech writers' skills are just as
important as theirs, it probably won't happen.

Amy

P.S. Some tech writers are computer science graduates, rather than English
graduates. Without trying to step on anyone's toes, a company will usually
benefit more with an English expert than a computer expert as a tech writer.
Are the reasons as obvious to you as they are to me?

-----Original Message-----
From: A. Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, November 11, 1999 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: Writing question


>"James E. Clapp" wrote:
>>
>>
>> When words that are not normally capitalized are capitalized it slows me
down
>> because in reading my mind gives those words a little extra stress.
(Then
>> often they slow me down more because I get annoyed that I was duped into
>> giving special stress to words that really didn't need it, and annoyed
that
>> conventional capitalization rules readers rely upon [capitalization
signifies
>> proper noun] are being disregarded, and annoyed at the affectation [it's
like
>> Cosmo-style overuse of italics], and so on; but that's probably just me.)
>>
>
>Not just you, I assure you.  One of the reasons I want to have some
research to
>back up my claim is that I want to get folks in the computer industry,
including
>the tech writers, to stop capitalizing a word just because it might be a
>computer term or command somewhere somehow.  Tech writing and user
interfaces
>should not be special in this regard, and I believe the excess
capitalization
>makes for an unfriendly interface.  It certainly bugs me.
>
>> I'm sure the caps are often thrown in not to give special emphasis but
just
>> because the writer has a vague feeling that important words, especially
nouns,
>> are supposed to be capitalized.  I suspect that much capitalization of
this
>> sort is really quite unconscious.
>
><rantlet>
>And born of ignorance.  English isn't German.  Heck, these days, German
isn't
>German.
></rantlet>
>
>>
>> Come to think of it, another thing that slows me down is writing with no
caps.
>> When i see writing in which words or names or abbreviations that would
>> conventionally be capitalized are not--which seldom occurs in the ads
list--i
>> find it quite distracting.  This obviously has nothing to do with the
inherent
>> features of the I-shape as distinguished from the i-shape: Much of what
makes
>> text readable or not is just a question of whether the conventions that
people
>> are accustomed to from a lifetime of reading are followed.  Anything that
>> departs from the convention tends to cause a little hiccup.
>
>not an e.e.cummings fan, eh?
>
>>
>> Of course, change can occur, and new conventions can replace old.  See,
e.g.,
>> the free and frequent capitalization in the Declaration of Independence
and
>> the capitalization of virtually all nouns in the Constitution of the
United
>> States.
>>
>
>But Those Words were Important, Weren't They?
>
>(No kidding, that's the way many messages are capitalized when I get them.)
>
>Andrea


From jeclapp at WANS.NET  Thu Nov 11 18:24:36 1999
From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:24:36 -0500
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.132436.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Amy Speed wrote:
> >
> >One of the points I'd like to make and back up with research is the
> >capitalization of words which don't require it. . . .
> >
> >Andrea
>
> I just had an interesting site forwarded to me concerning capitalization. In
> it I found the sentence, "Can there be a more lovely place in the Whole
> World?"

The effect of initial caps on readability is an entirely separate question
from the effect of writing entirely in caps.

As Amy's example demonstrates, people often use initial caps for emphasis; it
seems to give words Importance.  (Which would you assume gets paid more: the
president and chief operating officer or the President and Chief Operating
Officer?)  We often see quotation marks used for the same purpose.  Not to
mention italics, bold, and making specific words all caps.

When words that are not normally capitalized are capitalized it slows me down
because in reading my mind gives those words a little extra stress.  (Then
often they slow me down more because I get annoyed that I was duped into
giving special stress to words that really didn't need it, and annoyed that
conventional capitalization rules readers rely upon [capitalization signifies
proper noun] are being disregarded, and annoyed at the affectation [it's like
Cosmo-style overuse of italics], and so on; but that's probably just me.)

I'm sure the caps are often thrown in not to give special emphasis but just
because the writer has a vague feeling that important words, especially nouns,
are supposed to be capitalized.  I suspect that much capitalization of this
sort is really quite unconscious.

In any case, speaking at least for myself, it definitely does slow down
reading, but for different reasons from all caps, which also slows down
reading.

Come to think of it, another thing that slows me down is writing with no caps.
When i see writing in which words or names or abbreviations that would
conventionally be capitalized are not--which seldom occurs in the ads list--i
find it quite distracting.  This obviously has nothing to do with the inherent
features of the I-shape as distinguished from the i-shape: Much of what makes
text readable or not is just a question of whether the conventions that people
are accustomed to from a lifetime of reading are followed.  Anything that
departs from the convention tends to cause a little hiccup.

Of course, change can occur, and new conventions can replace old.  See, e.g.,
the free and frequent capitalization in the Declaration of Independence and
the capitalization of virtually all nouns in the Constitution of the United
States.

James E. Clapp


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 18:22:03 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:22:03 EST
Subject: Etymology of "Rx"
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.132203.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I thought "Rx" was the abbreviation for "rupies"?


From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Thu Nov 11 19:49:26 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:49:26 -0500
Subject: some queries
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.144926.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

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From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Thu Nov 11 20:29:15 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:29:15 -0500
Subject: like
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911111407300.3488-100000@minerva.cis.yale.e du>
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.152915.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And another from _American Speech_, 66 (1991):  S. Romaine and D. Lange,
"The Use of 'Like' as a Marker of Reported Speech and Thought: A Case of
Grammaticalization in Progress."

At 02:20 PM 11/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Here's some citations of articles about _like_ (I apologize if any of
>these have already been posted here):
>
>Underhill, "_Like_ is, Like, Focus," American Speech 63 (1988): 234-46.
>
>Blyth et al., "I'm Like, 'Say What?!': A New Quotative in American Oral
>Narrative," American Speech 65 (1990): 215-27.
>
>Ferrara & Bell, "Sociolinguistic Variation and Discourse Function of
>Constructed Dialogue Introducers: The Case of _be_ + _like_," American
>Speech 70: 265-90.
>
>Gee, this American Speech looks like a pretty interesting journal!
>
>
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
>Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
>Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From hcole at WELLESLEY.EDU  Thu Nov 11 15:51:24 1999
From: hcole at WELLESLEY.EDU (Wellesley Office)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:51:24 +0000
Subject: Maine accent/dialect
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.155124.0000.>

Hello,
I am a college senior currently involved in a research paper for my
class (Multilingual America).  I am looking for information on Maine
accents/Maine dialect (I am from Maine myself), any book suggestions,
resources?  Ideas?  Linguistic tales?

Thanks,
Rachel Horton


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Thu Nov 11 21:19:16 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:19:16 -0500
Subject: some queries
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19991111144744.00695b24@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.161916.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Be aware, though, that some of the works cited below on AppEng are not
scholarly and may in fact only perpetuate myths and stereotypes about the
dialect.  I'm thinking specifically about Dial and Williams; I don't know
about Kephart and Higgs & Manning, but I'd be suspicious.  Literary dialect
has to be viewed carefully too, of course, to distinguish authentic
representations from eye-dialect or stereotyped forms (which could, of
course, be legitimately studied in their own right).  (Sorry, Stephanie; I
don't have your e-dress, or I'd respond personally!)

At 02:49 PM 11/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I've been doing work on literary dialect and happen to have two great
>articles on Maine dialect. used in the works of George Savary Wasson, both
>by Jacob Bennett.
>Bennett, Jacob.  "George Savary Wasson and the Dialect of Kittery
>Point         Maine." American Speech 49 (1974): 54-66.
>
>---.  "George Savary Wasson's Approach to Dialect Writing." American
>Speech  54 (1979): 90-101.
>
>There are several articles in American Speech on Appalachian dialect.
>Donna Christian and Walt Wolfram would be good key names to search under.
>Also see
>
>Chase, Richard, comp.  American Folk Tales and Songs and other Examples
>of     English-American Traditions as Preserved in the Appalachian
>Mountains       and Elsewhere in the United States. New York: New
>American, 1956.
>
>Dial, Wylene P.  "The Dialect of the Appalachian People." West
>Virginia        History 30 (1969): 463-71.
>
>Dillard, J. L. All-American English.  New York: Random, 1975.
>
>Higgs, Robert J., and Ambrose N. Manning, eds. Voices from the Hills.
>New  York: Ungar, 1975.
>
>Kephart, Horace. Our Southern Highlanders. New York: Macmillan, 1922.
>
>Williams, Cratis.  "Appalachian Speech."  North Carolina Historical Review
>55        (1978): 174-79.
>
>---.  Southern Mountain Speech.  Berea: Berea College P., 1992.
>
>Wolfram, Walt.  Dialects and American English. Englewood Cliffs:
>Prentice,     1991.
>
>I've got more on Appalachian if you need it, but nothing on jargon.
>
>At 11:30 AM 11/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >        Hi - I'd like to beg for a little help.  I have students working on
> >1) Maine English, and in general the linguistic history of Maine, 2)
> >Appalachian English, 3) jargons in American English (she got interested in
> >that _Smithsonian_ account of the military use of Native American words as
> >a secret language in World War II).  I know a little about these things,
> >but I'm wondering whether subscribers to this list might have bibliographic
> >suggestions to make.  Off the top of your head only!  I don't want to ask
> >anyone to rummage through files or libraries, just, if possible, to take a
> >second and send me the obvious things that you know and I don't!
> >        Thanks in advance, Larry Rosenwald
> > </blockquote></x-html>
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From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Thu Nov 11 21:46:53 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:46:53 -0500
Subject: Cold Mountain
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.164653.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm trying to figure out how Charles Frazier meant for his character Ada
Monroe's name to be pronounced. For those who haven't read this book, she
grew up in Charleston, South Carolina and later moved with her minister
father to Cold Mountain in western North Carolina. The following passage
takes place in NC. I'll transcribe the bit which has me a little baffled
and hope someone can help me.

-Hey, Miss Ada Monroe, a voice called softly.
        Both names were pronounced in the ways that her father had hated. He had
never tired of setting people right on the matter: Broad initial A in Ada;
accented second syllable in Monroe, he would say. But over the summer, Ada
had given up trying to enforce her name against everyone's natural leaning,
and she was learning to be the Ada Monroe that the voice called. Long A,
heavy Mon.

I understand the accent on 'roe' and 'Mon,' but this broad A is confusing.
And does the 'Long A" (sorry for the caps) mean [e]? I'm hoping some
natives from the respective regions can shed light on this.

Thanks


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Thu Nov 11 22:04:45 1999
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:04:45 -0600
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.160445.0600.>

Amy Speed wrote:

>P.S. Some tech writers are computer science graduates, rather than >English graduates. Without trying to step on anyone's toes, a company >will usually benefit more with an English expert than a computer expert >as a tech writer. Are the reasons as obvious to you as they are to me?

Since I don't know which reasons you see as obvious, let me put one out
there for people to stomp on:

When computer experts write about computers, they tend to assume that
their audience shares their knowledge of computers.  They tend to
conclude that there is something wrong with the intelligence of anyone
who can't understand their technicalities, rather than providing
information the non-expert reader needs and lacks.  An English expert is
much more likely to consider the needs of the reader rather than the
technical but irrelevant implications of the computer problem as ding an
sich.

In my experience, almost every original equipment manual in the computer
world suffers from the same flaw.  When you're trying to solve a
problem, the manual is useful only ex post facto.   The only people who
can understand the manual are those who already know how to do what the
manual says it's trying to explain.  I thought that manuals would best
serve their purpose if a neophyte could understand them.  Unfortunately,
the only hope there is of understanding most manuals is through solving
problems by some means other than reference to the manual.

"RTFM" doesn't make sense when the one who wrote the manual can't write
in terms a newcomer can understand.

I wouldn't be happy if English majors with no training in computers
tried to create an operating system I would have to use on my computer.
Why should I be forced to accept the impenetrable muddles written by
computer geniuses with no knowledge of writing?

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!


From jeclapp at WANS.NET  Thu Nov 11 22:07:02 1999
From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:07:02 -0500
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.170702.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A. Vine wrote:
>
> One of the reasons I want to have some research to back up my claim
> is that I want to get folks in the computer industry, including the
> tech writers, to stop capitalizing a word just because it might be a
> computer term or command somewhere somehow.  Tech writing and user
> interfaces should not be special in this regard, and I believe the
> excess capitalization makes for an unfriendly interface.

Of course manuals and instructions and whatnot should be written in
standard English using standard English conventions.  Conventions
enhance readability and comprehensibility.  (Which is not the whole
point of poetry--case in point: e.e.cummings--but is the whole point of
a manual).

Finding research to prove this is likely to be difficult, though; it's
too basic, too obvious.  Why do they use standard spellings like
"through" and different spellings for "to" and "two"?  Why do they begin
sentences with capital letters and end them with periods?  Why do they
leave spaces between the words?  Why do they write from left to right?
There are plenty of languages that do not follow one or more of these
conventions, but in English we do so--not because research shows that
readers of English find that these conventions enhance readability,
and certainly not because these particular conventions are inherently
more readable--but simply because that's English!  We do it because this
is how written English has developed, and therefore it is what people
expect to see and are comfortable with and not confused by.  Other
languages have *their* conventions, and people who want to be easily
understood in those languages follow *those* conventions.

Now, common words used as terms of art or names of features can pose a
particular problem, and in a technical context there is something to be
said for flagging them in some consistent way.  For example, a neophyte
reading "Go to the file open dialog box and press home and then enter"
could be very confused.  (Go to the file, open the dialog box? Open the
dialog box and the press? The press home? Press homeward? Enter the box?
Enter the home?)  So some device to flag the names is desirable, and I
myself would be inclined to write (in an e-mail, say) "Go to the File
Open dialog box and press Home and then Enter."

But this solution breaks down if the capitalization is not carefully
restricted to specific named terms or features, and even then it is
problematic because in English capitalization serves other purposes as
well.  So a typographic feature such as a distinctive typeface is
obviously a more effective solution.

This topic interests me in part because lawyers are similarly prone to
capitalization:  ". . . the Defendant breached the Contract."  Sometimes
this serves a purpose: Often a lengthy contract begins with a list of
defined terms, each of which is capitalized both in the list of
definitions and then throughout the contract whenever it is being used
in its defined sense.  (For example, "the Insured" might be defined as
the party whose signature appears on the policy, but "insured" as verb
would not be capitalized.)  I don't have a serious problem with this if
done judiciously and with scrupulous consistency:  If the result is that
those words get a little pause and a little emphasis every time the
reader comes across one in a sentence, that is exactly as it should
be--a reminder that this is not just a word, but a term with a specific
definition for the purposes of the agreement.  Moreover, when a contract
has many such terms, this is about the least intrusive way to flag them:
Using quotation marks or bold print or all caps, as is sometimes done,
makes the reading much bumpier.

But the problem remains that convention requires certain words to be
capitalized for reasons that don't fit the scheme, and some lawyers tend
to capitalize randomly anyway.  So it's a device I would consider
employing only in very special situations and only with great care.

James E. Clapp


From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Thu Nov 11 21:59:38 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:59:38 -0500
Subject: some queries
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.165938.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

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From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Thu Nov 11 22:52:55 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:52:55 -0700
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.155255.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Right on! I couldn't have said it better myself. The advantage of an English
expert writing a manual as opposed to a computer expert is that we are
trained to write at a user's level (usually 6th grade reading level). We
have been trained in audience, grammar, and organization, the 5 Cs, etc.
Hey, an computer geek can tell you what Java script is ... but can they
explain it so you can understand it?

Amy

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, November 11, 1999 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: Writing question


>Amy Speed wrote:
>
>>P.S. Some tech writers are computer science graduates, rather than
>English graduates. Without trying to step on anyone's toes, a company >will
usually benefit more with an English expert than a computer expert >as a
tech writer. Are the reasons as obvious to you as they are to me?
>
>Since I don't know which reasons you see as obvious, let me put one out
>there for people to stomp on:
>
>When computer experts write about computers, they tend to assume that
>their audience shares their knowledge of computers.  They tend to
>conclude that there is something wrong with the intelligence of anyone
>who can't understand their technicalities, rather than providing
>information the non-expert reader needs and lacks.  An English expert is
>much more likely to consider the needs of the reader rather than the
>technical but irrelevant implications of the computer problem as ding an
>sich.
>
>In my experience, almost every original equipment manual in the computer
>world suffers from the same flaw.  When you're trying to solve a
>problem, the manual is useful only ex post facto.   The only people who
>can understand the manual are those who already know how to do what the
>manual says it's trying to explain.  I thought that manuals would best
>serve their purpose if a neophyte could understand them.  Unfortunately,
>the only hope there is of understanding most manuals is through solving
>problems by some means other than reference to the manual.
>
>"RTFM" doesn't make sense when the one who wrote the manual can't write
>in terms a newcomer can understand.
>
>I wouldn't be happy if English majors with no training in computers
>tried to create an operating system I would have to use on my computer.
>Why should I be forced to accept the impenetrable muddles written by
>computer geniuses with no knowledge of writing?
>
>-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
>PEACE !!!


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Nov 11 22:45:35 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:45:35 -0500
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Nov 1999 to 10 Nov 1999 (#1999-154)
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.174535.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs asks:

>>>>>
You don't keep whole beans in the freezer and grind them before each brewing?
<<<<<

Nope. There are grinders here at the office, but they grind a lot finer than the
coarse grind that the mavens and baristas tell me my French press wants.

>>>>>
Are you a member of ADS?
<<<<<

Yes... why, can I get a discount on coffee?

-- Mark

     See "Too Much Coffee Man" at http://tmcm.com/
ObDis: I don't write it or profit by it; I just think it's W E I R D !!!


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Thu Nov 11 22:53:29 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:53:29 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.175329.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I assure you, the meaning wasn't ambiguous for us!  Remember Jimmy Carter's
"lust in [his] heart"?  Add "burn with" in front of that.

At 09:44 PM 11/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 11/9/1999 7:08:58 PM Central Standard Time,
>greg at PULLIAM.ORG writes:
>
><<
>   >>
>s for the ambiguous (at least for me) quote, "It is better to marry than to
>burn," I have always wondered if the word burn is a reference to
>desire/passion or to hell's fire!  Maybe it is a double entendre, with a
>reference to both!   For some reason, every time I ask the question, I get an
>evasive response!
>                     PAT


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Thu Nov 11 23:34:57 1999
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:34:57 -0600
Subject: Cold Mountain
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.173457.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> -Hey, Miss Ada Monroe, a voice called softly.
>  Both names were pronounced in the ways that her father had hated. He had
> never tired of setting people right on the matter: Broad initial A in Ada;
> accented second syllable in Monroe, he would say. But over the summer, Ada
> had given up trying to enforce her name against everyone's natural leaning,
> and she was learning to be the Ada Monroe that the voice called. Long A,
> heavy Mon.
>
> I understand the accent on 'roe' and 'Mon,' but this broad A is confusing.

I assume that her father wanted her name to be pronounced ah-da monROE
but that it was regularly pronounced ay-da [eda] MONroe.

> And does the 'Long A" (sorry for the caps) mean [e]?

That's my guess -- the lay usage of "length" -- the one from elementary
school.

>I'm hoping some
> natives from the respective regions can shed light on this.

I'm not from either SC or NC (though many of my ancestors were).  I don't
think I've ever heard Ada pronounced ah-da.  Probably I have heard monROE
pronounced MONroe, though I've heard the former far more often.
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)
     Mississippian


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 23:37:23 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:37:23 EST
Subject: Cancun drinks, Mass customization
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.183723.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MASS CUSTOMIZATION

   "Mass customization" (of cars) is in today's Wall Street Journal, cited as a new buzz phrase.

--------------------------------------------------------
CANCUN DRINKS

   Greetings from Cancun.  I head home tomorrow.  There was no internet access at the archaeological sites of Tulum, Coba, Kabah, et al., nor did I run into any other teen singing sensations.
   The Ritz-Carlton was disappointing.  Here's the menu from its lobby lounge:

MARGARITAS--caribbean, peach, banana, strawberry, raspberry, mango, green, blue, golden, cadillas, Ritz-Carlton Margarita (Mandarine Napoleon).
   SIGNATURE MARTINIS
COSMPOLITAN--Absolut vodka, canberry juice, cointreau
VODKATINI--Stolichnaya vodka, dry vermouth
GOLDEN--Wiborowa vodka, mandarine napoleon
DIRTY MARTINI--Tanqueray gin, dry vermouth, olive brine
GIMLET--Gordon's gin, Rose's lime juice, lemon juice
TEQUINI--Porfidio silver tequila, dry vermouth

   This is from El Bar Andal here at the Kukulcan Plaza:

CAFE BARANDAL--vanilla ice cream, Baileys, Drambuie, coffe liquor
CAFE KUKULCAN--Grand Marnier, coffee liquor, whipping cream
CAFE IRLANDES--whiskey, coffee liquor, whipping cream
CAFE ESPANOL--brandy, coffee liquor, whipping cream
CAFE MAYA--Xtabentum, coffee liquor, brandy, whipping cream
CAFE VANDERMINT--chocolate, mint, coffee liquor
CAFE ITALIANO--Amaretto, coffee liquor, whipping cream
CAFE CAIBENO--rum, coffee liquor, whipping cream
CAFE BARANDAL II--sambuca, coffee liquor, brandy, chocolate ice cream
BRAIN CHILLER--chocolate, coffee, milk frappe
REINA ISABEL--whisky, orange liquor, carnation, syrup and frozen
SEX ON THE BAR--granadine, green mint, pineapple, grapefruit, orange juice
AFRICA--Kalhua, sweet anise, tequila
CAMALEON--white rum, orange liquor, orange juice
MARIR SONANDO--orange juice, 43 liquor, carnation, cinnamon and frozen
BRASIL--vodka, Cointreau, lemon, orange juice, granadine
MEDIAS DE SEDA--gin, carnation, granadine, white cocoa, cinnamon and frozen

   No further info on the Pepito and Sofia sandwich names.
   There was a sunshower here.  I couldn't find any good sunshower or Mexico City fog names.
   As they say in Cancun:
   Auf wiedersehn!
   Goodbye!


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 00:00:35 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:00:35 -0500
Subject: Cold Mountain
In-Reply-To: <199911112334.RAA06573@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.190035.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Natalie, by 'ah' do you mean [a] or [ae]?  I interpreted '"broad" to mean
the low front vowel, as in "Addie" (perhaps a diminutive of Ada?).
                                                         Beverly Flanigan

At 05:34 PM 11/11/99 -0600, you wrote:
> > -Hey, Miss Ada Monroe, a voice called softly.
> >  Both names were pronounced in the ways that her father had hated. He had
> > never tired of setting people right on the matter: Broad initial A in Ada;
> > accented second syllable in Monroe, he would say. But over the summer, Ada
> > had given up trying to enforce her name against everyone's natural leaning,
> > and she was learning to be the Ada Monroe that the voice called. Long A,
> > heavy Mon.
> >
> > I understand the accent on 'roe' and 'Mon,' but this broad A is confusing.
>
>I assume that her father wanted her name to be pronounced ah-da monROE
>but that it was regularly pronounced ay-da [eda] MONroe.
>
> > And does the 'Long A" (sorry for the caps) mean [e]?
>
>That's my guess -- the lay usage of "length" -- the one from elementary
>school.
>
> >I'm hoping some
> > natives from the respective regions can shed light on this.
>
>I'm not from either SC or NC (though many of my ancestors were).  I don't
>think I've ever heard Ada pronounced ah-da.  Probably I have heard monROE
>pronounced MONroe, though I've heard the former far more often.
>    --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)
>      Mississippian


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Fri Nov 12 00:24:47 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:24:47 -0600
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.182447.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> I wouldn't be happy if English majors with no training in computers
> tried to create an operating system I would have to use on my computer.
> Why should I be forced to accept the impenetrable muddles written by
> computer geniuses with no knowledge of writing?
>
> -- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
> PEACE !!!

You hit the nail on the head; I always prattle on that the best "how-to"
manuals are written by a naive writer with the expert assistance of
someone in the field.  A few months ago I was given a "Standard
Operating Procedure" on position classification to review.  My response
was that the information was accurate; however, I would strongly
recommended that a newly hired "special academic achievement"
trainee review the material, because the SOPs are written for beginners
to learn and full-performance to use for review; experts in the field have
little need of them in their special field.

Being a former computer specialist does not keep me from buying and
using the Dummy series outside my obsolete speciality.
Scott Catledge


From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 12 01:20:06 1999
From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:20:06 PST
Subject: Ada, Or Ardor
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.172006.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>
>Natalie, by 'ah' do you mean [a] or [ae]?  I interpreted '"broad" to mean
>the low front vowel...

Beverly, by 'the low front vowel' do you mean [a] or [ae] ??!!

According to IPA, [a] is the lowest (most open) of the front vowels. And the
vowel chart used in LANE, PEAS, etc. agrees.

But perhaps the absence of [a] from most American dialects (and the
resultant fact that [ae] is the low-frontest vowel) has something to do with
the alternative conception, e.g. in Wolfram/Schilling-Estes:

[ae]    low front tense
[a]             low central

Maybe the point here is that since starting from [E] you can't go lower
without going back at the same time, there is no "corner" for a real "true"
low front vowel to occupy...

Dej

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From pds at VISI.COM  Fri Nov 12 07:36:25 1999
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 01:36:25 -0600
Subject: Writing question
In-Reply-To: <382B10F6.BF7AC290@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.013625.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Andrea Vine wrote (eliciting a good number of dittos):
>"James E. Clapp" wrote:
>>... and annoyed that
>> conventional capitalization rules readers rely upon [capitalization
signifies
>> proper noun] are being disregarded
>
>Not just you, I assure you.  One of the reasons I want to have some
research to
>back up my claim is that I want to get folks in the computer industry,
including
>the tech writers, to stop capitalizing a word just because it might be a
>computer term or command somewhere somehow.

Background for the uninitiated:  The rules of a programming language
typically specify a list of reserved words.  These are words programmers
should use only as specified in that language.  These words can be, for
example, commands, parts of commands, function names, or variable names
that the software that processes code written in that language will always
treat the same way.  Programmers who use reserved words for other purposes
do so at the risk of getting unwelcome or unexpected results.  It is very
common for programmers to CAPITALIZE reserved words as they occur in the
code they write.  You don't have to understand the following the see the
point:

        IF USED(cUseAlias)
                LOCAL nOldSelect
                nOldSelect = SELECT()
                SELECT (cUseAlias)
        ELSE
                RETURN ""
        ENDIF

The mixed-case words are defined by the programmer, the capitalized words
are defined by rules of the language.  Writing code this way aids other
programmers in making sense of the code, and aids the original programmer
in finding errors.

Now when it comes to writing discursive prose for an audience of
programmers on topics in programming in a particular language, it seems
unnecessarily fussy to complain about writers who observe the orthographic
conventions of that language, when snatches of code or even individual
terms are tucked into the discursive part of the writing.  When so many
ordinary English words double as reserved words, it seems only natural to
give your readers a clue as to when you are using a reserved word.  To be
sure, context will usually decide it, but not always.   So following the
programming language conventions is the safest course.  I can see no
advantage in substituting a sentence more in accord with standard English
capitalization for something like:

"You need to do some additional checking following the DO WHILE loop if you
want to limit the search to the structural index."
or
"When you SET EXACT to ON, things change."
or
"The code in each function could be run by SETting [sic] PROCEDURE TO
viewscript.prg and calling the appropriate function."

All this said, if Andrea's research ever gets done, and if it demonstrates
that special marking of reserved words used within discursive prose adds no
clarity, but only ugliness, I will change my tune.  But I'd bet against it.

And none of this is to deny that software manuals are, with very few
exceptions, so horribly written as to be of very little help.  But their
defects in mechanics (as my old Warriner's calls it) are not the problem.

[All examples from the December 1999 issue of FoxPro Advisor]


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From pds at VISI.COM  Fri Nov 12 07:41:27 1999
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 01:41:27 -0600
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.014127.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":

The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the Carleton College alumni
magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of high school girls from
SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of the article is "Moby Chick".


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From ansolds at MASSED.NET  Fri Nov 12 16:59:37 1999
From: ansolds at MASSED.NET (Anson Olds)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:59:37 -0800
Subject: Hoosier dialect
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.085937.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear List members:

    My father, a native of Southern Indiana, says he is collecting
"Hoosier-isms" -- phrases, words, and pronunciations typical of Indiana
speech.  Example: "little-ole-bitty" for very small.  I wondered if anyone
out there could recommend an intelligently written, yet not too technical,
book on this subject that I could send him for Christmas.  I realize that
what he calls "Hoosier-isms" may be Appalachian dialect elements, so a book
on that topic might work as well.
    I live in a rural area in New England with limited library resources, so
your suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Emily Olds
c/o ansolds at massed.net


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Fri Nov 12 14:28:15 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:28:15 -0700
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.072815.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>For example, a neophyte
>reading "Go to the file open dialog box and press home and then enter"
>could be very confused.  (Go to the file, open the dialog box? Open the
>dialog box and the press? The press home? Press homeward? Enter the box?
>Enter the home?)  So some device to flag the names is desirable, and I
>myself would be inclined to write (in an e-mail, say) "Go to the File
>Open dialog box and press Home and then Enter."
>


James brings up an interesting case here. While I would write,

| 1. Click File, then click Open. The Open dialog box displays. |
| 2. Press <Home>, then press <Enter>.                                |

the idea is that capitalization is used for clarification. If I were to
write, "Click file, then click open," I feel that could be even more
confusing than the unconventional capitalization. The screen clearly
displays "File" and "Open" as options, so I ought to be writing them as they
are displayed.

The keystroke example I used will vary from company to company. I used < >
because of the lack of options in my email. Some would use bold, italics,
all caps, etc. The most important thing is that the reader understands that
those are keystrokes.

Technical writing often takes conventional English writing rules and twists
them a little bit to fit the software, the company style, or whatnot. I was
mortified to learn that my department uses some punctuation incorrectly.
When I talked to my manager about correcting it, she said that's they way
it's done here, and we will have to continue to do it that way. Arrgghh!!
Talk about an English major's nightmare.

Amy


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 15:41:22 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:41:22 -0500
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.104122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ugh.  But yes, I've heard it too, here on the OU campus.

At 01:41 AM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":
>
>The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the Carleton College alumni
>magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of high school girls from
>SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of the article is "Moby Chick".
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
>  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Fri Nov 12 15:50:24 1999
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:50:24 -0500
Subject: CAPITALS,
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.105024.0500.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Pafra & Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, November 11, 1999 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: CAPITALS,


>Concatenating replies to save header space; sorry if it inconveniences
>anyone.


Ditto...

>1. CAPITAL LETTERS.  Everything that has been said so far jibes with what
>I've heard. Two devil's advocate questions:
>
>a) If capital letters are harder to read, why was the old typewriter font
>called Orator, designed for typing speeches in big letters, an all-caps
>font?  OK, there were large caps and small caps, but they were all caps.


The 'hard to read' description I think was meant to apply to letters of the
same size, not form. With small caps and large caps, you still get the same
sort of positioning cues as with upper and lower case, but since the letters
are all the same shape, it presumably reads faster than pages in mixed case.
The orator needs to be looking at the audience, not reading from the
lectern. His pages serve as cues, no literature. I don't expect there's a
noticeable speed increase. Might make for an interesting experiment
though...

>b) If letters without ascenders and descenders are harder to read, how has
>e.g. the Cyrillic alphabet survived without significant modification?
>One of the reasons I've had a hard time learning to read Russian, Hebrew,
>Chinese, etc. is that these require making fine discriminations about
>features in the interior of a character, rather than just recognizing the
>overall shape of a word.


Russians, Chinese, and readers of Hebrew are masochists.

I don't think alphabets are generally all that plastic. There are font and
typeface variations, to be sure, and perhaps these can serve as analogs to
accent and dialect, but I think the main impetus behind alphabetic variation
is technology, not readability (excepting handwriting).

bkd


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 15:51:06 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:51:06 -0500
Subject: Ada, Or Ardor
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.105106.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I meant the low front tense vowel, vs. the 'script a' which I can't do on
e-mail (I hope my example of 'Addie' made that clear).  And you're right; I
think of [a] as low central, as used in AmerEng diphthongs, vs. low back
'script a'.  But our main concern here is with the term 'broad', which may
be interpreted differently in AmEng and BritEng, right?

At 05:20 PM 11/11/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>>
>>Natalie, by 'ah' do you mean [a] or [ae]?  I interpreted '"broad" to mean
>>the low front vowel...
>
>Beverly, by 'the low front vowel' do you mean [a] or [ae] ??!!
>
>According to IPA, [a] is the lowest (most open) of the front vowels. And the
>vowel chart used in LANE, PEAS, etc. agrees.
>
>But perhaps the absence of [a] from most American dialects (and the
>resultant fact that [ae] is the low-frontest vowel) has something to do with
>the alternative conception, e.g. in Wolfram/Schilling-Estes:
>
>[ae]    low front tense
>[a]     low central
>
>Maybe the point here is that since starting from [E] you can't go lower
>without going back at the same time, there is no "corner" for a real "true"
>low front vowel to occupy...
>

Unless you use a trapezoid conceptualization of vowel space instead of a
triangular one; in the former you have a "corner," albeit a backed one, as
you say.

______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Fri Nov 12 18:50:58 1999
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:50:58 -0800
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.105058.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Whch edition of Black's is the "new edition". I've been using the Fifth
Edition since 1976. I'm guessing it's "abominable" but I don't know for sure
'cause it seems to work pretty good.  :-)

Bob

Fred Shapiro wrote:

> Bethany,
>
> I don't know if by "glossaries" you mean brief word-lists, as opposed to
> full-length books, but in law the new edition of Black's Law Dictionary is
> reasonably good (former editions were abominable).
>
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
> Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
> Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Fri Nov 12 16:19:04 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:19:04 -0800
Subject: Etymology of "Rx"
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.081904.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- "A. Maberry" <maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU> wrote:
> This hardly sets the record straight, but I have
> always heard that it is
> an abbreviation for some form the Latin verb recipio
> -ere. The "R" is
> understandable and the "x" is a medieval Latin
> ligature for a combination
> of letters which forms the abbreviation "Rx". The
> "x" sign probably
> doesn't represent an "x" since Latin only uses an
> "x" to represent the
> Greek letter "ksi" in Greek loan words.


I've seen similar "(single-letter)x" abbreviations
used for "diagnosis" and "prognosis", but I can't
recall what those first letters are.

JIM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Fri Nov 12 16:24:04 1999
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen Miller)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:24:04 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <382C6192.37546974@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.112404.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bryan Garner - just recently put out the seventh edition, in fact it was
published in August


At 10:50 AM 11/12/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Whch edition of Black's is the "new edition". I've been using the Fifth
>Edition since 1976. I'm guessing it's "abominable" but I don't know for sure
>'cause it seems to work pretty good.  :-)
>
>Bob
>
>Fred Shapiro wrote:
>
>> Bethany,
>>
>> I don't know if by "glossaries" you mean brief word-lists, as opposed to
>> full-length books, but in law the new edition of Black's Law Dictionary is
>> reasonably good (former editions were abominable).
>>
>> Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
>> Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
>>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
>> Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
>> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Nov 12 16:26:41 1999
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:26:41 -0600
Subject: Cold Mountain
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.102641.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beverly wrote:
> Natalie, by 'ah' do you mean [a] or [ae]?  I interpreted '"broad" to mean
> the low front vowel, as in "Addie" (perhaps a diminutive of Ada?).

I meant low back -- the one that I can't make on my computer but that
[a] is sometimes used for (though I think of [a] as the sound of my
pronunciation of the pronoun I, not as the ah sound of father --
that's the sound I'm talking about -- the one with the non-print little
a symbol -- like "open your mouth and go ahhhh").
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 12 16:36:40 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:36:40 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <382C6192.37546974@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.113640.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Bob Fitzke wrote:

> Whch edition of Black's is the "new edition". I've been using the Fifth
> Edition since 1976. I'm guessing it's "abominable" but I don't know for sure
> 'cause it seems to work pretty good.  :-)

The 7th edition has just come out, and it's light years better than
previous editions.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Nov 12 16:57:03 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:57:03 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <382C6192.37546974@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.115703.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Bob Fitzke wrote:
>Whch edition of Black's is the "new edition". I've been using the Fifth
>Edition since 1976. I'm guessing it's "abominable" but I don't know for sure
>'cause it seems to work pretty good.  :-)

Look at the 6th ed.

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Nov 12 16:57:53 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:57:53 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991112112254.00971250@mailgate.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.115753.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Kathleen Miller wrote:
>Bryan Garner - just recently put out the seventh edition, in fact it was
>published in August

Thanks. I guess I also used an abominable one, since I used the 6th.

Bethany


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 17:43:56 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:43:56 -0500
Subject: Cold Mountain
In-Reply-To: <199911121626.KAA11431@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.124356.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks--I also cannot make the low back symbol on e-mail.  (I suppose I
could import it from my SIL set?  But I don't know how!)  In any case, I
called it 'script a.'  I learned something from your comment though:  I
didn't realize the Southern monophthong 'I' is [a] and not the low back
'script a'!  I'll listen more carefully next time ([tam], right?)!

At 10:26 AM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Beverly wrote:
> > Natalie, by 'ah' do you mean [a] or [ae]?  I interpreted '"broad" to mean
> > the low front vowel, as in "Addie" (perhaps a diminutive of Ada?).
>
>I meant low back -- the one that I can't make on my computer but that
>[a] is sometimes used for (though I think of [a] as the sound of my
>pronunciation of the pronoun I, not as the ah sound of father --
>that's the sound I'm talking about -- the one with the non-print little
>a symbol -- like "open your mouth and go ahhhh").
>    --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU  Fri Nov 12 18:13:58 1999
From: Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU (Bradley, Beth M)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:13:58 -0600
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.121358.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am in college.  Now and in high school, my friends and I have used
"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We do not take offense to
it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are surprised that we use the
term.
What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some people?

-Beth Bradley



-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Kysilko [mailto:pds at VISI.COM]
Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 1:41 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Chick


Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":

The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the Carleton College alumni
magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of high school girls from
SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of the article is "Moby
Chick".


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Fri Nov 12 18:04:07 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:04:07 -0500
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.130407.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Amy, I'm with you. I'm forever buying new guides to software and then
despair of ever understanding the ins and outs of my computer. I think
consistency is the key, like your using <>s to represent keystrokes. I also
think it's important for words to match what's on the computer. I wouldn't
understand click file, which is misleading. I also agree it's appalling
that your manager is determined to maintain the status quo of incorrect
punctuation. It'll probably take notice from an important customer to get
her to change her attitude.

 While I would write,
>
>| 1. Click File, then click Open. The Open dialog box displays. |
>| 2. Press <Home>, then press <Enter>.                                |
>
>the idea is that capitalization is used for clarification. If I were to
>write, "Click file, then click open," I feel that could be even more
>confusing than the unconventional capitalization. The screen clearly
>displays "File" and "Open" as options, so I ought to be writing them as they
>are displayed.
>
>The keystroke example I used will vary from company to company. I used < >
>because of the lack of options in my email. Some would use bold, italics,
>all caps, etc. The most important thing is that the reader understands that
>those are keystrokes.
>
>Technical writing often takes conventional English writing rules and twists
>them a little bit to fit the software, the company style, or whatnot. I was
>mortified to learn that my department uses some punctuation incorrectly.
>When I talked to my manager about correcting it, she said that's they way
>it's done here, and we will have to continue to do it that way. Arrgghh!!
>Talk about an English major's nightmare.
>
>Amy
>


From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Fri Nov 12 18:04:06 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:04:06 -0500
Subject: Cold Mountain
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.130406.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I hadn't even considered the low back vowel as an option. I guess I was
thinking the broad A must be either [ae] as in Beverly's Addie or the front
central-leaning [a] that you use for I. My niece was adopted from Orange
County in Virginia. Her name is Ida Mae and she pronounces it [ad at meI]. (I
can't remember what you use for schwa-that's what the @ is to represent).
Could this be posturing on the part of the Charlestonian father to write
her name Ada and then pronounce it like you might also pronounce Ida? I've
run into situations like this when I substituted for the public schools in
southeastern Ohio. Children would correct my pronunciation of what seemed
to me a common name.

I've never heard Ada any way other than [ed@]. I found this passage
intriguing, because Frazier is so deliberate in his description. Thanks for
your input.

At 10:26 AM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Beverly wrote:
>> Natalie, by 'ah' do you mean [a] or [ae]?  I interpreted '"broad" to mean
>> the low front vowel, as in "Addie" (perhaps a diminutive of Ada?).
>
>I meant low back -- the one that I can't make on my computer but that
>[a] is sometimes used for (though I think of [a] as the sound of my
>pronunciation of the pronoun I, not as the ah sound of father --
>that's the sound I'm talking about -- the one with the non-print little
>a symbol -- like "open your mouth and go ahhhh").
>   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)
>


From ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 12 19:01:52 1999
From: ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM (Jane Clark)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:01:52 PST
Subject: NADS 31.3
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.110152.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Please clarify: Are the regional meetings announced for next year? The date
said 99. Or have they already been held. Sorry, but I am a new member of the
group. Very confusing.


>From: AAllan at AOL.COM
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: NADS 31.3
>Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:41:16 EDT
>
>You may well be wondering what happened to the September issue of the
>Newsletter of the American Dialect Society, especially if you've just
>received your dues notice from Duke University Press with reference to Page
>3
>of that issue. Well, Duke is on time, the Newsletter isn't.
>
>The good news is that it will go to the printer Monday the 25th and will go
>out by first-class mail at the end of the week.
>
>Also, on Monday a copy will go to Grant Barrett for posting on the ADS-L
>website, so you can download and read the news at your convenience.
>
>The issue has the very complete program of our January meeting, with full
>original abstracts - bigger than the ones LSA allows in their program. It
>also has the annual directory of members, news of a few other meetings, and
>of course another page of queries from DARE.
>
>Thanks for your patience, or maybe your impatience. Both have helped bring
>it
>to completion. - Allan Metcalf
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 19:52:39 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:52:39 -0500
Subject: Chick
In-Reply-To: <2717AE3C3A50D311BD5B00C00D0093042B1E62@ems5.uwsp.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.145239.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The women, and thankfully men, who are surprised or take offense at the
term know of the long history of trying to get rid of animal-based terms
for women (far fewer animal words are used for men).   So now they're
coming back!  What kind of connotation does 'chick' have for you--little,
soft, cute, fluffy, playful, high-peeped, to be cuddled in the palm of the
hand?  Is this how you want to be viewed?  And, maybe more importantly, do
only your female friends use this term (mutually, I assume), or do your
male friends use it too--non-mutually, I assume?  Or do you call young
males 'chicks' also?

At 12:13 PM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>I am in college.  Now and in high school, my friends and I have used
>"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We do not take offense to
>it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are surprised that we use the
>term.
>What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some people?
>
>-Beth Bradley
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Kysilko [mailto:pds at VISI.COM]
>Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 1:41 AM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Chick
>
>
>Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":
>
>The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the Carleton College alumni
>magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of high school girls from
>SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of the article is "Moby
>Chick".
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
>   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Fri Nov 12 20:15:49 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:15:49 -0700
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.131549.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It seems to me that the word "chick" is regaining popularity, especially
among young females. I would be insulted if a colleague called me Chick, but
I would tolerate it from a friend. Perhaps it is an attitude among women
that we can call ourselves whatever we like. The popular country music group
Dixie Chicks, for example, picked their own name and even have chick feet
tattooed on their feet. Their web site (www.dixiechicks.com) says, "The
Dixie Chicks came out of the chute with enough sass and confidence to adopt
slogans like 'Chicks Rule' and 'Chicks Kick Ass.'" Whether the Dixie Chicks
themselves are leading this fad, I don't know. My question is, "Is it more
acceptable for women to refer to themselves as chicks than for men?"

Amy

-----Original Message-----
From: Bradley, Beth M <Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Friday, November 12, 1999 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: Chick


>I am in college.  Now and in high school, my friends and I have used
>"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We do not take offense to
>it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are surprised that we use
the
>term.
>What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some people?
>
>-Beth Bradley
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Kysilko [mailto:pds at VISI.COM]
>Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 1:41 AM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Chick
>
>
>Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":
>
>The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the Carleton College alumni
>magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of high school girls from
>SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of the article is "Moby
>Chick".
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
>  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Fri Nov 12 19:19:54 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:19:54 -0500
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.141954.0500.>

I think I may have said this before, but for me it seems that the
reclamation of "chick" has something to do with its phonetic similarity
to (and thus perhaps connotation of) "chica" (which I was using as an
address term with friends before "girlfriend" was popularized) and
perhaps also associations with "chic"  (remember "Chic" Jeans?  They
pronounced the name like "chick", not "sheik".)

I think it also helps that "chick" has such a snappy sound.  The word
itself (ignoring the animal reference) is short and sharp, with those
voiceless obstruents and short high vowel.  So, "chick" sounds better as
a reclaimed power-laden label than something else (like bunny or kitty
or baby) would.

Of course, I look at college age women these days, and a lot of them
look like they are trying to look like the animal chick--tiny (and in
little girl clothes) and cute (tiny barrettes, tiny backpacks) and
cuddly (always smiling).  What I wouldn't do for some nice goth students
who I can relate to!

Lynne, whose students now laugh heartily when she tries to call herself
a "chick"

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Nov 12 20:13:28 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:13:28 -0500
Subject: male pattern baldness (was Re: Chick)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991112143713.00b79830@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.151328.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I listened to a description of a male suffering from "male pattern
baldness" the other day and wondered why the description did not say
simply that he was "bald." (It was clear from the context that he was
male.)

Then I wondered: would fat women sound more attractive if we described
then as suffering from, say, "female pattern fatness"?

Bethany


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Fri Nov 12 19:40:59 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:40:59 -0500
Subject: male pattern baldness
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.144059.0500.>

"Bethany K. Dumas" wrote:

> I listened to a description of a male suffering from "male pattern
> baldness" the other day and wondered why the description did not say
> simply that he was "bald." (It was clear from the context that he was
> male.)
>
> Then I wondered: would fat women sound more attractive if we described
> then as suffering from, say, "female pattern fatness"?

When you say a guy has MPB, you are saying that he has some hair.  It's
in a horseshoe pattern on his head.  If you say he's bald, then it sounds
like he has no hair, or at least less than a horse-shoe's worth.  So, by
saying he has MPB you're kind of saying that it's not necessarily that
he's old, but he doesn't have as much hair as he used to.  You're also
saying that it's a genetic thing that is not self-imposed.  I don't know
that it actually makes him sound more attractive than if he were just
bald.  In fact, I think it conjures up images of pathetic George Costanza
types, rather than sexy Jean-Luc Picard types (I think Patrick Stewart,
who has a horseshoe fringe, would not be described as having MPB, but
would just be bald--and sexy).  You often (well, sometimes) hear women
say "I think bald men are sexy", but not "I think men with male pattern
baldness are sexy."

I assume that female-pattern-fatness would be bottom-heaviness (tummy,
hips, and thighs).  And since I don't think MPB makes men sound more
attractive, I also don't think that FPF would make women sound more
attractive.

Lynne, who was once complimented by an African man that she has "the body
of a woman who has had MANY children"


--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 12 20:40:58 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:40:58 EST
Subject: NADS 31.3
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.154058.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Jane,

<< Please clarify: Are the regional meetings announced for next year? The date
said 99. Or have they already been held. Sorry, but I am a new member of the
group. Very confusing. >>

Sorry for the confusion! That was one other problem with the issue: it was
late. I kept the regional programs to inform readers about who was talking on
what.

You'll notice that the dates and places of future years' meetings are
announced at the end of each region's program, to help in planning ahead. The
January issue will have calls for papers, and the May issue will have
preliminary programs for 2000.

I want to welcome you as a new member. But you're not in the ADS database
yet. I guess Duke U Press hasn't yet told us of your joining. And yet you
have the newsletter, which I send out using labels from the ADS database. Do
I have you listed under some other name than Jane Clark?

Thanks for your help in solving this mystery.

Best wishes - Allan Metcalf


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 20:35:36 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:35:36 -0500
Subject: male pattern baldness (was Re: Chick)
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.153536.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:13 PM 11/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I listened to a description of a male suffering from "male pattern
>baldness" the other day and wondered why the description did not say
>simply that he was "bald." (It was clear from the context that he was
>male.)
>
>Then I wondered: would fat women sound more attractive if we described
>then as suffering from, say, "female pattern fatness"?
>
>Bethany
>

(1) euphemism to soften the blow
                 +
(2) abstract, scientific multi-attributive
terminology ("attributive attributive abstract-noun"
is a very common -- dare I say it? -- pattern...),
in order to present the phenomenon as
more vague and more important-sounding


A very very common strategy in an era where people worry a lot about how
dictional choices might hurt their own or others' feelings, right?

Best, Greg D.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 20:39:16 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:39:16 -0500
Subject: male pattern baldness (was Re: Chick)
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.153916.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:13 PM 11/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>would fat women sound more attractive if we described
>then as suffering from, say, "female pattern fatness"?
>
>Bethany
>

I meant to add, on the euphemism/science/abstractness front ----

I have read discussions of the supposedly differential anatomical locations
in which males and felames supposedly tend to store supererogatory adiposity
and lipidity. I bet if you searched the medical and pop-medical literature
on obesity and related issues from the last couple of decades you'd find
phrasing very much like the above, for both sexes.

Best, Greg D.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Nov 12 20:42:43 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:42:43 -0800
Subject: male pattern baldness (was Re: Chick)
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.124243.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Bethany K. Dumas" wrote:
>
> I listened to a description of a male suffering from "male pattern
> baldness" the other day and wondered why the description did not say
> simply that he was "bald." (It was clear from the context that he was
> male.)
>

Um, my husband would object to that and calls himself "follicly challenged".

;-}

Andrea


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 20:54:26 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:54:26 -0500
Subject: male pattern baldness
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.155426.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:40 PM 11/12/99 -0500, M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu wrote:
>If you say he's bald, then it sounds
>like he has no hair, or at least less than a horse-shoe's worth.
>

"Bald" is of course an old word that did not originate from science or
medicine. As such it has a wide and rather fuzzy range of meaning. It can
mean completely hairless, or it can mean not having hair on some part of the
head where it would normally be. OED2 bald, meaning 2 (the first meaning
having to do with hair): "Having no hair on some part of the head where it
would naturally grow...."

I suspect that in drawing a clear distinction (i.e., eliminating any
overlap) between MPB and bald, you are doing something that people often do:
forging and articulating a distinction between what are,
descriptivistically, overlapping locutions, i.e., neatening up the language.
It's not folk-etymology, it's more like "non-descriptivistic semantic
disambiguation" or something. (Hey, "folk-etymology" isn't the most accurate
term in the world, either -- phenomena discussed under the heading
"folk-etymology" frequently arise or happen elsewhere than among "the folk,"
and are in fact quite often non-etymological.)

Best, Greg D.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Fri Nov 12 20:18:19 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:18:19 -0500
Subject: male pattern baldness
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.151819.0500.>

Yes, "bald" has a fuzzy meaning (like just about everything else).  The point I
was trying to make was that because the two terms exist, and one of them
definitely does not describe complete baldness,  the one that has the potential
to mean something different ("bald" can mean 'completely hairless') is often
assumed to have that more extreme meaning.  Also, one might suppose that the
prototypical meaning for "bald" is complete hairlessness (my cat is bald, he
went bald from chemotherapy), but the prototypical meaning for "bald man" is
more like "male pattern baldness"--bringing up other problems.

Lynne, who doesn't have a cat, but might like a bald one

Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote:

> At 02:40 PM 11/12/99 -0500, M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu wrote:
> >If you say he's bald, then it sounds
> >like he has no hair, or at least less than a horse-shoe's worth.
> >
>
> "Bald" is of course an old word that did not originate from science or
> medicine. As such it has a wide and rather fuzzy range of meaning. It can
> mean completely hairless, or it can mean not having hair on some part of the
> head where it would normally be. OED2 bald, meaning 2 (the first meaning
> having to do with hair): "Having no hair on some part of the head where it
> would naturally grow...."
>
> I suspect that in drawing a clear distinction (i.e., eliminating any
> overlap) between MPB and bald, you are doing something that people often do:
> forging and articulating a distinction between what are,
> descriptivistically, overlapping locutions, i.e., neatening up the language.
> It's not folk-etymology, it's more like "non-descriptivistic semantic
> disambiguation" or something. (Hey, "folk-etymology" isn't the most accurate
> term in the world, either -- phenomena discussed under the heading
> "folk-etymology" frequently arise or happen elsewhere than among "the folk,"
> and are in fact quite often non-etymological.)
>
> Best, Greg D.
>
> Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 21:13:49 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:13:49 -0500
Subject: Chick
In-Reply-To: <001601bf2d4a$b6795ce0$61b7f7ce@scooby.paradigmtech.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.161349.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:15 PM 11/12/99 -0700, you wrote:
>It seems to me that the word "chick" is regaining popularity, especially
>among young females. I would be insulted if a colleague called me Chick, but
>I would tolerate it from a friend. Perhaps it is an attitude among women
>that we can call ourselves whatever we like. The popular country music group
>Dixie Chicks, for example, picked their own name and even have chick feet
>tattooed on their feet. Their web site (www.dixiechicks.com) says, "The
>Dixie Chicks came out of the chute with enough sass and confidence to adopt
>slogans like 'Chicks Rule' and 'Chicks Kick Ass.'" Whether the Dixie Chicks
>themselves are leading this fad, I don't know. My question is, "Is it more
>acceptable for women to refer to themselves as chicks than for men?"

Than for men to call women chicks, I assume you mean?  I would hope
so.  Related terms like 'girl', 'girlfriend', and even 'bitch' appear to be
OK from female to female but not from male to female--or at least I hope
so.  However, when I ask my undergraduate women if they mind being called
"girls," I get an ever-increasing "no, why?"  As Lynne said, they seem to
enjoy dressing, acting, and talking (with a highpitched squeak) like little
girls, so I guess it follows that they like the label.  In fact, they tell
me "women" sounds "old and stuffy"--the last thing they want to be.  My
cut-off for 'girl' is the end of high school, but these people seem not to
want to give up that stage in their lives.  Interestingly, they also seem
to be rejecting 'Ms' as an address term (also old and stuffy)--FN only, please.

>Amy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bradley, Beth M <Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Date: Friday, November 12, 1999 11:14 AM
>Subject: Re: Chick
>
>
> >I am in college.  Now and in high school, my friends and I have used
> >"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We do not take offense to
> >it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are surprised that we use
>the
> >term.
> >What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some people?
> >
> >-Beth Bradley
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Tom Kysilko [mailto:pds at VISI.COM]
> >Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 1:41 AM
> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >Subject: Chick
> >
> >
> >Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":
> >
> >The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the Carleton College alumni
> >magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of high school girls from
> >SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of the article is "Moby
> >Chick".
> >
> >
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
> >  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Fri Nov 12 21:41:54 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:41:54 -0700
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.144154.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am beginning to feel that I will always be called "girl," rather than
"woman." Even at my job, women are often referred to as girls. While I don't
find it offensive, I am beginning to wonder what it takes to be called a
woman. As a backlash, I find myself sometimes referring to men as boys.
Which is not always an inaccuracy.

>At 01:15 PM 11/12/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>It seems to me that the word "chick" is regaining popularity, especially
>>among young females. I would be insulted if a colleague called me Chick,
but
>>I would tolerate it from a friend. Perhaps it is an attitude among women
>>that we can call ourselves whatever we like. The popular country music
group
>>Dixie Chicks, for example, picked their own name and even have chick feet
>>tattooed on their feet. Their web site (www.dixiechicks.com) says, "The
>>Dixie Chicks came out of the chute with enough sass and confidence to
adopt
>>slogans like 'Chicks Rule' and 'Chicks Kick Ass.'" Whether the Dixie
Chicks
>>themselves are leading this fad, I don't know. My question is, "Is it more
>>acceptable for women to refer to themselves as chicks than for men?"
>
>Than for men to call women chicks, I assume you mean?  I would hope
>so.  Related terms like 'girl', 'girlfriend', and even 'bitch' appear to be
>OK from female to female but not from male to female--or at least I hope
>so.  However, when I ask my undergraduate women if they mind being called
>"girls," I get an ever-increasing "no, why?"  As Lynne said, they seem to
>enjoy dressing, acting, and talking (with a highpitched squeak) like little
>girls, so I guess it follows that they like the label.  In fact, they tell
>me "women" sounds "old and stuffy"--the last thing they want to be.  My
>cut-off for 'girl' is the end of high school, but these people seem not to
>want to give up that stage in their lives.  Interestingly, they also seem
>to be rejecting 'Ms' as an address term (also old and stuffy)--FN only,
please.
>
>>Amy
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Bradley, Beth M <Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU>
>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Date: Friday, November 12, 1999 11:14 AM
>>Subject: Re: Chick
>>
>>
>> >I am in college.  Now and in high school, my friends and I have used
>> >"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We do not take offense
to
>> >it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are surprised that we use
>>the
>> >term.
>> >What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some people?
>> >
>> >-Beth Bradley
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Tom Kysilko [mailto:pds at VISI.COM]
>> >Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 1:41 AM
>> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> >Subject: Chick
>> >
>> >
>> >Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":
>> >
>> >The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the Carleton College alumni
>> >magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of high school girls
from
>> >SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of the article is "Moby
>> >Chick".
>> >
>> >
>> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
>> >  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
>> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Nov 12 21:54:24 1999
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:54:24 -0800
Subject: male pattern baldness
In-Reply-To: <382C760A.FADC674C@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.135424.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The first time I heard the term "male pattern baldness," it was to
distinguish it from another pattern of balding.  Male pattern baldness is
when the hair loss starts at the crown of the head and spreads outward,
leaving a surrounding band of hair of varying widths.  The other kind (and
I forget what it's called) is when the hair receeds on either side of the
forehead, leaving a "peninsula" of hair in the center. I never thought of
"MPB" as a euphemism--just a descriptive term for one of two common kinds
of balding.  I must say it doesn't seem a very logical term, since it
doesn't contrast with a *female pattern baldness, but rather with a
different kind of male pattern.

Peter


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 21:56:05 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:56:05 -0500
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.165605.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:13 PM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>I am in college.  Now and in high school, my friends and I have used
>"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We do not take offense to
>it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are surprised that we use the
>term.
>What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some people?
>
>-Beth Bradley
>

This is an interesting sociolinguistic question. Something I've noticed on
this list for several years is that as empirical social scientists people
tend to take the descriptivist position ("our job is to describe as
objectively and accurately as possible what people actually do,
linguistically, without fear or favor"). But then the same people turn
around and express very strongly prescriptivistic opinions. I suspect that
there is always a deeper consistency behind any seeming inconsistency,
though the deeper consistency may not always be clearly understood or
acknowledged.

But you are not asking about this meta-problem. To answer your specific
question: My sense would be that it has to do with the sociolinguistics, in
the 1965-75 period, of college-educated and non-college-educated speakers.
During that period, when modern versions of feminism were emerging and
developing, one of the linguistically prescriptivistic ideas proposed in
connection with the movement was that any words for females that seemed to
carry a sexual connotation or could be taken as otherwise offensive needed
to be eliminated by those who supported the main ideas of emergent feminism.
Like many terms of actual or supposed endearment, "chick" was a term for a
small, cuddly animal that had come to be used figuratively in application to
women, either by lovers or by those who wanted to discuss or address women
in a sexualized fashion. (Of course, women also used similar metaphorical
terms of endearment -- or, in some uses, predatory sexualization -- in
application to men, but that was not the issue at that time.)

Sociolinguistically, since emergent feminism tended to be attractive to
those with a college education and the less educated were less aware of or
interested in or even tolerant of emergent feminism, terms such as "chick"
came to be matters of dispute in the culture wars that followed. So today,
thirty years later, when a young woman uses "chick" in the hearing of an
educated woman who grew up in the 60's or 70's and accepted emergent
feminism, that is kind of parallel, sociolinguistically, to a Baptist
hearing someone blatantly swear in a public forum.

This doesn't mean there's anything metaphysically offensive about all the
terms that came to be negatively marked. Note for example that "lady" came
to be seen as offensive as part of the same process, not because there is
something offensive about the metaphor involved ("lady" is actually an
aristocratic term if you trace it back) but, again, for sociolingusitic
reasons. "Lady" was a term of address used for women whose name one didn't
know by people without a college education -- cadrivers and the like (recall
Archie Bunker, a fictional character in the early 70's). Since those who
were interested in the emergent feminist perspective perceived that such
folks were frequently on "the other side" in the culture wars, those
people's terms for women came to be stigmatized in more educated circles.
Thus the originally aristocratic "lady," which had been employed as a (by
aspiration, at least) upscale term among less educated and affluent people
in the pre-1970 period, came to be seen as repulsive and insulting, while
"woman" (interestingly, "wife person" if one traces it back) was seen as
inoffensive because it was the most mainstream and unmarked word in the
actual usage of that time.

So, sociolingistic history lives on!

Best, Greg D.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 22:05:58 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:05:58 -0500
Subject: male pattern baldness
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.170558.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:54 PM 11/12/99, "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
>The first time I heard the term "male pattern baldness," it was to
>distinguish it from another pattern of balding.  Male pattern baldness is
>when the hair loss starts at the crown of the head and spreads outward,
>leaving a surrounding band of hair of varying widths.  The other kind (and
>I forget what it's called) is when the hair receeds on either side of the
>forehead, leaving a "peninsula" of hair in the center.
>

I can't recall seeing this other phenomenon, or the non-MPB term that would
describe it. But I hear and read "bald" and "MPB" all the time. Does anyone
have a reference?

Since people are interseted in this, OED2 has the following under "pattern"
(noun), at the end of the entry where the compounds are listed:

"pattern baldness, baldness in which there is a gradual loss of hair in
accordance with a characteristic pattern, as in the receding hair-line that
commonly occurs in men as they grow older"

citations:

1916 Jrnl. Heredity VII. 349/2 Congenital baldness must not be confused with
*pattern baldness.
1956 C. Auerbach Genetics in Atomic Age 16 The so-called pattern-baldness of
men is due to a mutated gene which acts most effectively on the background
of a male constitution.
1974 Jrnl. Clin. Endocrinol. & Metabolism XXXIX. 1012/1 Androgens may
paradoxically cause male pattern baldness in individuals with a genetic
predisposition.


>I never thought of
>"MPB" as a euphemism--just a descriptive term for one of two common kinds
>of balding.  I must say it doesn't seem a very logical term, since it
>doesn't contrast with a *female pattern baldness, but rather with a
>different kind of male pattern.
>

If it happened to be a particular pattern of hair loss that tends to be seen
in men more than in women, without contrasting with any other pattern of
baldness in men, the term would make fairly good sense.

Best, Greg D.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 22:44:08 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:44:08 -0500
Subject: Chick
In-Reply-To: <199911122156.QAA27118@is2.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.174408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A very nice encapsulation of my "Language of Women and Men" course!  The
era is right, of course, with Robin Lakoff kicking off the discussion and
with people like Julia Penelope Stanley dealing specifically with sexual
and animal terms and their connotations when used about and to
persons.  And yes, prescriptivism inevitably comes into play when we deal
with such touchy issues, though I try to move from description and
subjective reaction toward a class consensus of sorts (though I'm defeated
lately on the notion of "girl," as I've said).

At 04:56 PM 11/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 12:13 PM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >I am in college.  Now and in high school, my friends and I have used
> >"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We do not take offense to
> >it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are surprised that we use the
> >term.
> >What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some people?
> >
> >-Beth Bradley
> >
>
>This is an interesting sociolinguistic question. Something I've noticed on
>this list for several years is that as empirical social scientists people
>tend to take the descriptivist position ("our job is to describe as
>objectively and accurately as possible what people actually do,
>linguistically, without fear or favor"). But then the same people turn
>around and express very strongly prescriptivistic opinions. I suspect that
>there is always a deeper consistency behind any seeming inconsistency,
>though the deeper consistency may not always be clearly understood or
>acknowledged.
>
>But you are not asking about this meta-problem. To answer your specific
>question: My sense would be that it has to do with the sociolinguistics, in
>the 1965-75 period, of college-educated and non-college-educated speakers.
>During that period, when modern versions of feminism were emerging and
>developing, one of the linguistically prescriptivistic ideas proposed in
>connection with the movement was that any words for females that seemed to
>carry a sexual connotation or could be taken as otherwise offensive needed
>to be eliminated by those who supported the main ideas of emergent feminism.
>Like many terms of actual or supposed endearment, "chick" was a term for a
>small, cuddly animal that had come to be used figuratively in application to
>women, either by lovers or by those who wanted to discuss or address women
>in a sexualized fashion. (Of course, women also used similar metaphorical
>terms of endearment -- or, in some uses, predatory sexualization -- in
>application to men, but that was not the issue at that time.)
>
>Sociolinguistically, since emergent feminism tended to be attractive to
>those with a college education and the less educated were less aware of or
>interested in or even tolerant of emergent feminism, terms such as "chick"
>came to be matters of dispute in the culture wars that followed. So today,
>thirty years later, when a young woman uses "chick" in the hearing of an
>educated woman who grew up in the 60's or 70's and accepted emergent
>feminism, that is kind of parallel, sociolinguistically, to a Baptist
>hearing someone blatantly swear in a public forum.
>
>This doesn't mean there's anything metaphysically offensive about all the
>terms that came to be negatively marked. Note for example that "lady" came
>to be seen as offensive as part of the same process, not because there is
>something offensive about the metaphor involved ("lady" is actually an
>aristocratic term if you trace it back) but, again, for sociolingusitic
>reasons. "Lady" was a term of address used for women whose name one didn't
>know by people without a college education -- cadrivers and the like (recall
>Archie Bunker, a fictional character in the early 70's). Since those who
>were interested in the emergent feminist perspective perceived that such
>folks were frequently on "the other side" in the culture wars, those
>people's terms for women came to be stigmatized in more educated circles.
>Thus the originally aristocratic "lady," which had been employed as a (by
>aspiration, at least) upscale term among less educated and affluent people
>in the pre-1970 period, came to be seen as repulsive and insulting, while
>"woman" (interestingly, "wife person" if one traces it back) was seen as
>inoffensive because it was the most mainstream and unmarked word in the
>actual usage of that time.
>
>So, sociolingistic history lives on!
>
>Best, Greg D.
>
>
>Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Nov 12 23:01:38 1999
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:01:38 -0600
Subject: Cold Mountain
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.170138.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beverly said:
>   I learned something from your comment though:  I
> didn't realize the Southern monophthong 'I' is [a] and not the low back
> 'script a'!  I'll listen more carefully next time ([tam], right?)!

I just remembered that I've had a sample of a monophthongal "I" on my
web page for ages.  I think this is the right file:
http://www2.msstate.edu/~maynor/hi.wav
If that doesn't work, go to http://www2.msstate.edu/~maynor/ and click
on something like "a genuine monophthongal [aI] for curious yankees."
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Sat Nov 13 01:52:26 1999
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:52:26 -0800
Subject: male pattern baldness (was Re: Chick)
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.175226.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I suspect it's to differentiate causes. My son was bald at 44 but it was
because he underwent chemotherapy for non-Hodgkins lymphoma. I doubt the
advertisers purport to alleviate that kind of loss.

Bob

Bethany K. Dumas wrote:

> I listened to a description of a male suffering from "male pattern
> baldness" the other day and wondered why the description did not say
> simply that he was "bald." (It was clear from the context that he was
> male.)
>
> Then I wondered: would fat women sound more attractive if we described
> then as suffering from, say, "female pattern fatness"?
>
> Bethany


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Sat Nov 13 02:38:40 1999
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:38:40 -0800
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.183840.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Pafra & Scott Catledge wrote:

> >
> > I wouldn't be happy if English majors with no training in computers
> > tried to create an operating system I would have to use on my computer.
> > Why should I be forced to accept the impenetrable muddles written by
> > computer geniuses with no knowledge of writing?
> >
> > -- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
> > PEACE !!!
>
> You hit the nail on the head; I always prattle on that the best "how-to"
> manuals are written by a naive writer with the expert assistance of
> someone in the field.

My view has been that computer instructions are written by folks who want to
globally explain everything  the computer can do. They should be written from
the perspective of the user, the person who wants to do something specific.
And far too often the instructions use several words for the same item or
thing; a practice that would screw up a program these instruction-writers
would construct.  When you think about it, it boggles the mind that thousands
of teachers daily and successfully give instructions to millions of kids about
how to do things they, the kids, have never done before. At a fraction of what
these computer types are paid.


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 12 23:35:32 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:35:32 EST
Subject: male pattern baldness (was Re: Chick)
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.183532.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I personally prefer, "pleasingly plump."
                SIGNED,
            A 40-something-year-old (I forget the exact age) who flaunts her
"baby
            fat."


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Sat Nov 13 00:18:48 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:18:48 -0800
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.161848.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I believe the underlying theme in folks' complaints about computer documentation
is consistency in terminology, along with capitalization.  One of the many other
corrections I write up has to do with terminology and syntax consistency.  This
is particularly important in the world of translation (not my world but a
concern thereof.)

Someone (maybe Tom Kysilko?) was saying that he would expect computer commands
to be capitalized in doc, or written the way they are in programming.  I would
too, but not all computer _terms_ are commands.  Consider that I am dealing with
messages which look like:

The File you are Accessing is not Found.

Argh.  (I should get a parrot for my shoulder.)

anDrEA


From bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM  Sat Nov 13 00:55:45 1999
From: bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM (Bookrat)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:55:45 -0800
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991109182534.00a29140@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.165545.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:26 PM -0800 11/9/99, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

>>I have said "in college" all my life.
>>
>>Bethany
>
>
>Me too--but not "in university."  (Minnesota born and bred.)

A few months ago, the syndicated comic strip "For Better Or Worse" (written
by a Canadian and set in Ontario) contained a panel in which a girl tells
her little sister:

"Next year I'll be in univerisity!"

I find it interesting that American English speakers may be found in
college but never in university.

There's a local talk-show host (for those of you in the San Francisco area,
Michael Krasny of KQED) who, whenever he has guests in the studio with him,
announces, "...and in studio with me..."  (I don't think it's a
Canadianism, as he was born in Ohio.)

Ken Miller
Partridge School of Gentle Arts


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Sat Nov 13 07:07:09 1999
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 01:07:09 -0600
Subject: male pattern baldness (was Re: Chick)
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.010709.0600.>

Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote:

> I have read discussions of the supposedly differential anatomical locations
> in which males and felames supposedly tend to store supererogatory adiposity
> and lipidity. I bet if you searched the medical and pop-medical literature
> on obesity and related issues from the last couple of decades you'd find
> phrasing very much like the above, for both sexes.
>
> Best, Greg D.
>
> Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu

What you'll find is "male pattern obesity", sometimes abbreviated to
MPO.  Definitions usually run to metaphor or simile, rather than
anatomical description:  "The typical 'beer belly' of MPO".

The antonym is what you'd expect: female pattern obesity, or FPO.

Now picture a man with slim hips, narrow buttocks, and a fairly flat
lower abdomen.  Endow him with large amounts of drooping, unmuscular
flesh on his upper arms and a pair of fatty rolls, one at the lower part
of his chest and another roughly at his midsection.  I'm describing
someone I know who clearly is carrying a lot of excess weight.  I'd say
he's fat, and on one of my high-falutin' days I might even say he's
obese.  There is no question that this person is male.  He simply
doesn't have male pattern obesity.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 13 08:01:13 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 03:01:13 EST
Subject: More Cancun drinks; Ric Burns's NEW YORK
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.030113.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MORE CANCUN DRINKS

     Greetings from New York, New York, a town so nice...whatever.
     These creations are from the Bar 'n Roll in the Kukulcan Plaza, Cancun:

BAR 'N ROLL COCKTAIL--our famous bomb cocktail, a delicious combination of
rum, whisky, vodka, baileys, choclate syrup, and half-and-half
CABANA--orange, pineapple juice, banana, grenadine, vodka
MARILYN COCKTAIL--pineapple juice, coconut creme with cacao cream, vodka
JAMES DEAN COCKTAIL--orange, cranberry juice mix with coconut rum, melon and
peach liquor and vodka
AYRON SENNA COCKTAIL--pina colada mized with banana and melon liquor
JANIS JOPLIN--orange and cranberry juice mix w/vodka, melon liquor, peach
liquor, and coconut rum
BANANA SUNSET--orange juice w/gin and banana liquor
SUN BURN--cranberry juice mix w/tequila and triple sec
DRAGSTER BEACH--pineapple and orange juice, coconut creme mix with banana and
melon liquor
CANCUN BANANA--vanilla ice cream, chocolate syrup w/bananas, mix w/ banana
liquor, and whipped cream
STRAWBERRY DYLAN--natural strawberries w/strawberry and cherry liquor and
whipped cream
BEATLES LIQUOR--sweet and sour flavour, cranberry juice mix w/rum, triple
sec, vodka and gin
JAGGER BEVERAGE--pineapple and cranberry juice w/ rum, triple sec and blue
curacao
LONG ISLAND--sweet and sour flavour mix w/ rum, triple sec, gin and vodka
ROCK FANTASY--cranberry and orange juice mix w/amaretto
ORANGE PORSCHE--orange juice w/vodka and orange ice cream
MADRAS CLAPTON--pineapple and cranberry juice w/vodka
ALMOND AND ELVIS--vanilla ice cream, chocolate syrup, coconut cream w/amaretto
SEX ON THE BEACH--pineapple and cranberry juice, w/vodka, melon liquor and
raspberry liquor
CANCUN COLADA--pineapple, orange juice, coconut creme, grenadine mix, with
melon liquor and tequila cuervo
SEX MORRISON--vodka, pineapple and cranberry juice mix w/melon liquor and
cherry liquor
JOE BUG--pineapple juice, sweet and sour flavour mix w/melon liquor, coconut
rum and banana liquor
MUD SLIDE--vanilla ice cream, half and half, w/kahlua, amaretto, baileys, and
almond liquor
DUNHILL LENNON--orange juice, grenadine mix with amaretto, southern comfort,
and vodka
YELLOW ROLLS ROYCE--pineapple and orange juice w/coconut rum liquor and melon
liquor
RED CORVETTE--orange and cranberry juice w/tequila and casis (black currant
liquor)
PINK CADILLAC--orange juice, grenadine mix with rum, gin, and peach liquor

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
RIC BURNS'S _NEW YORK_

     NEW YORK ( a PBS documentary, and also a book) by Ric Burns will be on
tv tomorrow.  There are a few errors and omissions.  "Gotham" is described as
a mythical city in England.  It's not so mythical--I've been there.
     But let's cut directly to the big enchilada.
     I wrote Ric Burns a letter when "Big Apple Corner" was going through the
city council.  There was no reply.
     I wrote Ric Burns another letter when "Big Apple Corner" was dedicated.
 There was no reply.
     It stood to reason, therefore, that he'd get my work wrong.  Well...
     "The Big Apple" is conspicuous by its absence.  NEW YORK never mentions
it at all!

(P.S.  Check back in five days and see if my book review made Amazon.com.)


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Nov 13 09:31:32 1999
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 01:31:32 -0800
Subject: change in e-mail address
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.013132.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi Allan,

The e-mail address listed for me in the current NADS
newsletter is no longer in use.  My new e-mail address
is              mlee303 at yahoo.com

Please make the necessary change for the membership
roster.

Thanks,
Margaret G. Lee


--- AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:
> << accurate not only in connotation but in
> denotation >>
>
> um, I meant, of course,
>
> accurate not only in denotation but in connotation
>
> - Allan Metcalf
>


=====
Margaret G. Lee, Associate Professor,English & Linguistics
Department of English
Hampton University
Hampton, VA 23668
Office: (757) 727-5437
Home: (757) 851-5773
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Nov 13 09:48:08 1999
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 01:48:08 -0800
Subject: Chick, chickenhead, and pigeon
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.014808.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What about "chickenhead" and "pigeon," the lastest
bird references to females?  I don't think today's
college women regard them as favorably as they do
chick.

Margaret Lee

--- Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU> wrote:
> I think I may have said this before, but for me it
> seems that the
> reclamation of "chick" has something to do with its
> phonetic similarity
> to (and thus perhaps connotation of) "chica" (which
> I was using as an
> address term with friends before "girlfriend" was
> popularized) and
> perhaps also associations with "chic"  (remember
> "Chic" Jeans?  They
> pronounced the name like "chick", not "sheik".)
>
> I think it also helps that "chick" has such a snappy
> sound.  The word
> itself (ignoring the animal reference) is short and
> sharp, with those
> voiceless obstruents and short high vowel.  So,
> "chick" sounds better as
> a reclaimed power-laden label than something else
> (like bunny or kitty
> or baby) would.
>
> Of course, I look at college age women these days,
> and a lot of them
> look like they are trying to look like the animal
> chick--tiny (and in
> little girl clothes) and cute (tiny barrettes, tiny
> backpacks) and
> cuddly (always smiling).  What I wouldn't do for
> some nice goth students
> who I can relate to!
>
> Lynne, whose students now laugh heartily when she
> tries to call herself
> a "chick"
>
> --
>
> M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
> Department of English, Baylor University
> PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
> Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
> http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy
>


=====
Margaret G. Lee, Associate Professor,English & Linguistics
Department of English
Hampton University
Hampton, VA 23668
Office: (757) 727-5437
Home: (757) 851-5773
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Nov 13 11:43:12 1999
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 03:43:12 -0800
Subject: E-mail address for William Safire
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.034312.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone have the e-mail address for William Safire
or his assistant at the _New York Times Magazine_?
I would appreciate your help.

Margaret Lee

=====
Margaret G. Lee, Associate Professor,English & Linguistics
Department of English
Hampton University
Hampton, VA 23668
Office: (757) 727-5437
Home: (757) 851-5773
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 13 15:46:38 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:46:38 EST
Subject: E-mail address for William Safire
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.104638.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Kathleen Miller
millerk at nytimes.com


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Sat Nov 13 17:30:09 1999
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 12:30:09 -0500
Subject: Capitalization
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.123009.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Relative to the recent discussion of the use of capital letters in
software documentation, I thought that the following might be of
interest.  In an update patch from Microsoft, the EULA for the software
includes the following notes.  It is interesting that the statement
about capitalization follows a paragraph that is in all caps.
---------------------------------------------
"NOTE:  IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A VALID EULA FOR ANY 'OS PRODUCT' (MICROSOFT
WINDOWS 95, MICROSOFT WINDOWS 98, MICROSOFT WINDOWS NT WORKSTATION
VERSION 4.0, AND/OR MICROSOFT WINDOWS NT SERVER VERSION 4.0), YOU ARE
NOT AUTHORIZED TO INSTALL, COPY OR OTHERWISE USE THE OS COMPONENTS AND
YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS UNDER THIS SUPPLEMENTAL EULA.

"Capitalized terms used in this Supplemental EULA and not otherwise
defined herein shall have the meanings assigned to them in the
applicable OS Product EULA."
-----------------------------------------------

BTW, Microsoft recommends that you consider installing the requisite
patch on your computer, if you are running either Windows 95 or Windows
98.  It is a 'buffer overrun' situation.  Quoting the bulletin from
Microsoft:  "Simply displaying the web page or e-mail message is
sufficient to cause the buffer overrun to occur."  There are other
details which might affect your decision.  For me, it was simply
download (a less than 200k file), install, reboot.

Information on the situation at:
http://www.microsoft.com/security/bulletins/MS99-049faq.asp
Patch availability at:
http://www.microsoft.com/security/bulletins/ms99-049.asp

The focus of this note is the issue of capitalization.  Other comments
are merely of an informative nature.

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Sat Nov 13 18:49:57 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 13:49:57 -0500
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.134957.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 05:44 PM 11/12/99, Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
>And yes, prescriptivism inevitably comes into play when we deal
>with such touchy issues, though I try to move from description and
>subjective reaction toward a class consensus of sorts....
>

Methodologically, this confuses me. Do you analyze what people actually do,
(socio)linguistically, or do you and all the students in the class try to
reach an entente about what you think the right kind of people should and
shouldn't do, linguistically? Those are very different activities. Also, it
would be odd if everyone in a class of any size and diversity ended up
agreeing every time that there was a discussion about what people should and
shouldn't do with regard to some specific linguistic issue. Compare the
*divergence* of opinion about "chick," "girl," etc. seen on this listserv
since early this afternoon.

Best, Greg D.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From greg at PULLIAM.ORG  Sat Nov 13 20:06:31 1999
From: greg at PULLIAM.ORG (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 14:06:31 -0600
Subject: dialectizer web page
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.140631.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is a website that claims to translate any URL into "dialects."
The choices are: Redneck, Jive, Cockney, Elmer Fudd, Swedish Chef,
Moron, and Pig Latin.

I'm not endorsing this site, BTW.

http://www.rinkworks.com/dialect/
-
Greg


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Nov 13 19:04:04 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 15:04:04 -0400
Subject: Chick
In-Reply-To: <199911122156.QAA27118@is2.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.150404.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:56 PM -0500 11/12/99, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote
(inter alia)
>
>This doesn't mean there's anything metaphysically offensive about all the
>terms that came to be negatively marked. Note for example that "lady" came
>to be seen as offensive as part of the same process, not because there is
>something offensive about the metaphor involved ("lady" is actually an
>aristocratic term if you trace it back) but, again, for sociolingusitic
>reasons. "Lady" was a term of address used for women whose name one didn't
>know by people without a college education -- cadrivers and the like (recall
>Archie Bunker, a fictional character in the early 70's). Since those who
>were interested in the emergent feminist perspective perceived that such
>folks were frequently on "the other side" in the culture wars, those
>people's terms for women came to be stigmatized in more educated circles.
>Thus the originally aristocratic "lady," which had been employed as a (by
>aspiration, at least) upscale term among less educated and affluent people
>in the pre-1970 period, came to be seen as repulsive and insulting,

That's not quite how I remember that discussion from the mid to late '70s.
Although Robin Lakoff, in her discussion in _Language and Woman's Place_,
did bring up some examples like "saleslady" that might be seen as involving
pink collar jobs, the real objection to using "lady" for "woman" was that
it was a 'pedestal word', used to desexualize women, and as such
functioning essentially as a euphemism.  Thus "lady" was placed in the same
bag as "Israelite" for 'Jew' and "Afro-American" and originally "Negro" for
'black', in each case providing support for the thesis (advanced by Lakoff
and others) that we only have ethnic euphemisms where we would also have
dysphemisms representing our 'true' feelings about the class referred to.
Essentially, we use "lady" because we're REALLY thinking...well, one of the
500 words insulting terms listed in large slang compendia.  If "lady" were
used exactly where "gentleman" was (as in the plural, on some bathroom
doors or in preambles to formal speeches), it would have been considered a
quaint relic, perhaps, but nothing to raise feminist hackles.  It was (and
is) the asymmetry--the use of "lady" and, for that matter, "girl" in
contexts where a man would simply be called a "man"--that prompted the
objections.  I'm not sure that Archie Bunker was really part of this debate.

>while
>"woman" (interestingly, "wife person" if one traces it back) was seen as
>inoffensive because it was the most mainstream and unmarked word in the
>actual usage of that time.
>
Agreed on the sociology, but not on the etymology, or at least it's
misleadingly packaged.  "Woman" is only 'wife-person' if we remember that
"wife" here (wi:f, actually) was then the word for 'female' or 'woman', so
a better gloss for wi:f-man(n) would be 'female person', as wer-man(n) was
'male person'.  Only later did wi:f end up specialized to mean 'wife' (in
the same way that Ger. Frau or Fr. femme have specific meanings of 'wife'
alongside their general meanings of 'woman').  "Old wives' tales" and
"midwife" preserve the earlier meanings of "wife" = 'woman'.

Larry


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Sat Nov 13 22:58:25 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 17:58:25 -0500
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.175825.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:04 PM 11/13/99 Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>That's not quite how I remember that discussion from the mid to late '70s.
>Although Robin Lakoff, in her discussion in _Language and Woman's Place_,

Yes, I was assigned that in two different undergrad classes! (Univ of Mich.
Linguistics Dept, late 70s).


>did bring up some examples like "saleslady" that might be seen as involving
>pink collar jobs, the real objection to using "lady" for "woman" was that
>it was a 'pedestal word', used to desexualize women, and as such
>functioning essentially as a euphemism.  Thus "lady" was placed in the same
>bag as "Israelite" for 'Jew' and "Afro-American" and originally "Negro" for
>'black', in each case providing support for the thesis (advanced by Lakoff
>and others) that we only have ethnic euphemisms where we would also have
>dysphemisms representing our 'true' feelings about the class referred to.
>Essentially, we use "lady" because we're REALLY thinking...well, one of the
>500 words insulting terms listed in large slang compendia.  If "lady" were
>used exactly where "gentleman" was (as in the plural, on some bathroom
>doors or in preambles to formal speeches), it would have been considered a
>quaint relic, perhaps, but nothing to raise feminist hackles.  It was (and
>is) the asymmetry--the use of "lady" and, for that matter, "girl" in
>contexts where a man would simply be called a "man"--that prompted the
>objections.  I'm not sure that Archie Bunker was really part of this debate.
>

I bet that prescriptivistically-driven linguage-change is no different from
human activity generally in the following basic sense: Various people do the
same thing for a variety of reasons. Not everyone who's eating a hamburger
right now is doing so for the same reasons, or would articulate the same
reasons if asked. People who vote for a given political party or candidate
in a given election do so for a variety of reasons, always mutually
contradictory to some extent when there are enough voters involved.

So the possibility or reality that various kinds of reasoning were spoken --
or left unspoken -- during the process of stigmatizing "lady" within one
significant subdivision of the anglophone world in the 1970's actually makes
perfect sense. After all, as people have mentioned in prior messages on this
thread, the general point was to generate linguistic change *as* a social,
and putatively moral, differentiator. I.e., the point was to stigmatize
words, not to make sure that all the reasoning for doing so one everyone's
part was identical and unimpeachable. The only crucial thing was that by
creating linguistic "differentiators," some kinds of speakers hoped to be
able to claim or imply superiority to other kinds of speakers. The important
thing was that sheep and goats should be created, and be made as
distinguishable as possible; that everyone agree on exactly why given words
were stigmatized was supererogatory.


>>while
>>"woman" (interestingly, "wife person" if one traces it back) was seen as
>>inoffensive because it was the most mainstream and unmarked word in the
>>actual usage of that time.
>>
>Agreed on the sociology, but not on the etymology, or at least it's
>misleadingly packaged.  "Woman" is only 'wife-person' if we remember that
>"wife" here (wi:f, actually) was then the word for 'female' or 'woman', so
>a better gloss for wi:f-man(n) would be 'female person', as wer-man(n) was
>'male person'.  Only later did wi:f end up specialized to mean 'wife' (in
>the same way that Ger. Frau or Fr. femme have specific meanings of 'wife'
>alongside their general meanings of 'woman').  "Old wives' tales" and
>"midwife" preserve the earlier meanings of "wife" = 'woman'.
>

We've seen the same etymologies. It's true that, early enough, "wif" more
generally meant female, but a lot of the etymologizing and a lot of the
semantic and connotational analysis that resulted in the whole array of
"1970's feminist stigmatizations" were based not on historically accurate
beliefs about language, but instead on widely held but historically
inaccurate 20th-cent. beliefs about various lexical items. If "history" was
stigmatizable as patriarchal (I heard this many times as an undergrad in the
late 1970's), then to be consistent and thorough woman ("wife-person")
should also have been stigmatized, as I mentioned in the post to which you
are responding here.

But then again, the goal in that epoch was a pragmatic one -- to create
differentia rather than to be logically or linguistically consistent in some
global, dispassionate sense. Some words needed to be left unstigmatized, or
no one would have been able to talk about women at all. That would not have
been desirable, or even possible. According to the analysis that was
proposed, the history of language is the history of culture, and the history
of culture was, according to the then-emergent worldview, patriarchal. It
followed that all words relating to women must have been offensive, if
examined closely enough. However, on a practical level, some words needed to
remain unstigmatized. The idea was to be able to differentiate sheep and
goats and claim moral superiority via linguistic means. The gaol was not to
reveal everyone as goats whenever they talked.

Best, Greg D.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sun Nov 14 01:24:06 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:24:06 -0500
Subject: 7th ed
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.202406.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have a lovely new possession -- Black's Law Dictionary, 7th ed. I
splurged and, for the first time, bought the leather-bound thumb-indexed
edition. (Pricey, yes, but cheaper at my Border's @ $69 -- even with 8.25%
sales tax - than at amazon, where it is $76.45 + shipping. My total was
$74.69. I am eager to read and see why Fred thinks it is light years
better than the 6th.

Also -- I am in the market for editions 1-4 if they are in reasonably good
condition and reasonably priced (I went through law school on 5, then
bought 6 when it came out).

Bethany


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sun Nov 14 02:07:31 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:07:31 -0500
Subject: Cold Mountain
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.210731.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Perfect!  I just tried it, and it came through loud and clear for this
curious Yankee.

At 05:01 PM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Beverly said:
>>   I learned something from your comment though:  I
>> didn't realize the Southern monophthong 'I' is [a] and not the low back
>> 'script a'!  I'll listen more carefully next time ([tam], right?)!
>
>I just remembered that I've had a sample of a monophthongal "I" on my
>web page for ages.  I think this is the right file:
>http://www2.msstate.edu/~maynor/hi.wav
>If that doesn't work, go to http://www2.msstate.edu/~maynor/ and click
>on something like "a genuine monophthongal [aI] for curious yankees."
>   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)
>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov 14 03:13:15 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:13:15 -0500
Subject: 7th ed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911132015010.299-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.221315.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 13 Nov 1999, Bethany K. Dumas wrote:

> $74.69. I am eager to read and see why Fred thinks it is light years
> better than the 6th.

I thought the deficiencies of the pre-Bryan Garner editions of Black's
were obvious and well-known.  They basically lack information on variant
spellings, parts of speech, inflected forms, etymologies, field labels,
usage labels and notes, derivatives, synonym notes, and illustrative
citations.  They are filled with what David Mellinkoff has called "scraps
of what is said to be law -- Anglo-Saxon law, Hindu, Japanese, Jewish,
Greek, Spanish, French, Roman, canon, ecclesiastical, civil, and something
called 'Old European' law," "disembodied snatches of law French and
Latin," "claptrap from the feudal system ... the armor, the weapons, the
ancient customs.  Page after page of trivia," as well as general terms of
well-known meaning, such as "garden," "horsepower," "martini," and "sex."
On the other hand, the pre-Garner Black's omitted newer (i.e.,
20th-century) vocabulary such as "genocide" or "victimless crime."

Most importantly, Black's definitions relied heavily on undiscriminating
collection of judicial authority as opposed to clear, concise definitions
based on available evidence of overall usage, and often failed to indicate
the range of meanings of a term.

My article, "Linguistic Applications of LEXIS and WESTLAW," 30 Jurimetrics
Journal 147 (1990) has a fuller discussion of all this.

> Also -- I am in the market for editions 1-4 if they are in reasonably good
> condition and reasonably priced (I went through law school on 5, then
> bought 6 when it came out).

The first edition is a rare book that you won't obtain so easily, but Law
Book Exchange has reprinted it (I think they reprinted the second edition
as well).

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 14 01:04:54 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:04:54 EST
Subject: Anti-semitism (long!)
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.200454.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    First lady Hillary Rodham Clinton is in Israel.
    About a day ago, she ran into political problems in the newspapers here when she accepted Mrs. Arafat's anti-semitic rants with a hug and a kiss.  This was supposed to win Hillary New York's Jewish vote!
   A friend of mine who runs a Jewish newspaper said the Clintons are certainly no friends of Jews, that the whole thing is a travesty of...okay, I'll stop.
   The OED has:

anti-semite--ATHENAEUM, 3 Sept. 1881
anti-semitic--ATHENAEUM, 3 Sept. 1881
anti-semitism--ATHENAEUM, 11 February 1882

   It appears that the phrase started in Germany. (Who would have guessed?)  The following reads like some Wagnerian opera.

15 December 1879, NEW YORK TIMES (from Historical Newspapers Online database), pg. 2, col. 3:
   In the month of September last, a few Berliners, anxious to attract attention to their own insignificant personalities, got up a club--the "Anti-Semitic"--for the purpose of provoking an agitation against the Jews.  Its President was an individual named Marr, whose factotum, Groussillier, occupied the Vice-Presidential chair.  Groussillier was an unsucceful dramatic author, who had failed, not only in finding a theatre where his lucubrations would be accepted, but also with a society which he had founded, under the title of the Lessing Bund, whose aim was to blackmail theatrical managers and force his own and his colleagues' pieces upon the stage.  Exasperated by his defeats, this worthy cast about him for some one on whom he could vent his spleen, and finding a willing co-operator in M. Marr, the pair determined to "go for" the Israelites, who had already been held up to public animadversion by the sermons of the court preacher, M. Stocker.  The Anti-Semitic League, not nu!
mbering a great many members, it assumed an appearance of mystery, so as to excite curiosity; but as, unluckily, some of the adepts were necessitous, the secrets of the association were sold to the _Tageblatt_, which newspaper figured at the head of the anti-Smeitic-proscription list.  Great was the ire of Marr & Co., who attempted to deny the _Tageblatt's_ revelations, but all in vain, as this journal brought facts in support of the assertions.  Thereupon M. Marr became blood thirsty, and sent a challenge to the editor for a duel with triply-loaded revolvers at three paces.  Grousillier, who was the second, expected that these deadly conditions would be refused, whereupon he proposed to call the other party "a coward and a slanderer," and was horrified when the adversary's friend called upon him to arrange about the "hour and the spot."  Three visits to his lodgings did not find him, he declined to reply to a written request for an interview, and, finally, backed out altogeth!
er, alleging that it would be _infra dig._ to fight a journalist who had bought a secret from a traitor.  So ended this phase of the agitation, but not the agitation itself, to continue which a species of review has been founded, and, strange to say, finds a ready sale.  Among the measures recommended in this publication, are: Interdiction to attend any theatres owned by Jews, or numbering Jews among their employes; to be present at any performances of Sara Bernhardt--who is not a Jewess--or Marie Heilbronn; to patronize concerts where the works of Mendelssohn or Mayerbeer are given upon the programme; to enter any church in which "are sung the Psalms of the Jew David."  Nor is the New York _Herald_ to be read, because it is affiliated with the _Daily Telegraph_, whose owner is an Israelite; finally, it should be made a penal offense to peruse Lord Beaconsfield's novels, or Heine's poems, and, in short, anything and everything either written or published by a Jew. (...)

2 February 1881, TIMES (LONDON), pg. 5, col. d:
   THE ANTI-SEMITIC AGITATION IN SAXONY.  DRESDEN, FEB. 1...

15 April 1881, TIMES (LONDON), pg. 3, col. c.  "Anti-Semitics" is used.

April 1881, CATHOLIC WORLD (from Making of America database), pg. 131:
   THE PRUSSIAN ANTI-SEMITIC LEAGUE.

2 October 1881, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 10, col. 4:
THE JEWS IN GERMANY
_EXTENT AND PROGRESS OF THE_
_NEW ANTI-SEMITIC MOVEMENT._
CHARACTER OF THE MEN WHO HEAD AND
   WHO ARE BEHIND IT--WHAT THEY
   PROFESS TO DESIRE--THE HEBREWS
   ACCUSED OF EVERY KNOWN CRIME--
   THEIR REAL OFFENSE--BISMARCK AND
   COMPANY--A GLANCE BEHIND THE
   SCENES.
   MUNICH, Sept. 9--The anti-Semitic movement--the Jewish question--it to-day in Germany the one great subject of discussion.  (...)(Long article--ed.)
   (col. 6--ed.) All during the six weeks of his service Herr Kaufmann was continually and contemptuously spoken of by the non-commissioned officers as "Mauschel," a term which corresponds, as nearly as possible, to "Sheeny."

   Speaking of anti-semitism and politics, there's always Pat Buchanan...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 14 08:11:31 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 03:11:31 EST
Subject: Lombardi's "Winning isn't everything"
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.031131.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WHEN PRIDE STILL MATTERED:
A LIFE OF VINCE LOMBARDI
by David Maraniss (author of the Bill Clinton book, FIRST IN HIS CLASS)
Simon & Schuster, 1999
$26, 541 pages, hardcover

       "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing" is on pg. 928 of the
QUOTATIONARY (1962 and 1967 quotes are given), in BARTLETT'S, on pg. 374 of
the RANDOM HOUSE DICTIONARY OF POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS ("This adage
originated in the United States in 1953, and it is often attributed to
Vanderbilt University coach Red Sanders."), and pg. 533 of the AHDOAQ.

Pg. 26:  "the Jug"--after-school detention.
Pg. 102:  "Eyewash!"/"Jesus Katy!"/"Jeebers Katy!" (various exclamations--ed.)
Pg. 168:  Run to daylight--later the phrase would become the trademark of
Lombardi's offense in Green Bay, but it was conceived in 1956 on the practice
field in Vermont.
Pg. 192:  Misbehaving players on the other eleven NFL teams were threatened
with trades to "the salt mines of Siberia," as Green Bay was known around the
league.
Pg. 206:  The "Green Bay Packahs," as Lombardi called them...
Pg. 318:  "...a second addiction of the people in Green Bay is the phrase
'real great,' which they use as frequently and with as many shades of
intonation and meaning as the French do with 'ca va.'"
Pg. 366:  Although he never shied away from the violence of the game,
insisting that football was "not a contact sport, but a collision sport," he
did not encourage dirty play.  (No exact quote is given.  See my previous
Duffy Daugherty posting--ed.)
Pg. 366:  The signature phrase itself--"winning isn't everything, it's the
only (pg. 367--ed.) thing"--was not coined by Lombardi, and in fact the first
time it was recorded for posterity, it was uttered not by Lombardi or by any
other football coach but by an eleven-year-old actress.  Its etymology goes
back decades before the philosopher coach reached his rhetorical apogee in
Green Bay in the mid-1960s, but the best place to start is in Hollywood in
1953 with the screenwriter Melville Shavelson.  Warner Brothers had optioned
a piece of short fiction from the _Saturday Evening Post_ about a football
coach at a small Catholic college, and recruited Shavelson to write the
screenplay, which he agreed to do after also being made producer.  He sent
the script to John Wayne, who surprised everyone by taking the starring role,
even though, as Shavelson said, the football coach "didn't ride a horse or
shoot a gun."
     The script became the movie _Trouble Along the Way_, which was a box
office flop...
     (Pg. 368--ed.)  "Is winning so important?"
     And from the mouth of an eleven-year-old girl comes the immortal answer.
 "Listen," she responds.  "Like Steve says, 'Winning isn't everything, it's
the only thing!'" (...)  It was from this milieu of Hollywood mythology and
deceit that Lombardi's trademark phrase arose.
     (Pg. 360--ed.)  As to the famous phrase, Shavelson said that it came
from his Hollywood agent, who also happened to represent the colorful UCLA
football coach Henry "Red" Sanders.  "The agent quoted me the line once and
said that he had heard Sanders say it," Shavelson recalled.  "That's how it
got in the script."
     If Red Sanders coined the phrase, as it appears he did, it would be
appropriate. (...)  He was known for his sardonic wit and frequent use of
sayings. (...)
     According to (the Nashville Banner's Frank--ed.) Russell, who continued
writing his column into his nineties in the late 1990s, Sanders first uttered
the winning isn't everything phrase long before he reached UCLA, indeed
before he began at Vanderbilt.  "I remember hearing him saying it back in the
mid-1930s, when he was coaching at the Columbia Military Academy," Russell
recalled.


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sun Nov 14 12:23:30 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 07:23:30 -0500
Subject: 7th ed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911132156180.28338-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.072330.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 13 Nov 1999, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>I thought the deficiencies of the pre-Bryan Garner editions of Black's
>were obvious and well-known.

Oh, I agree. But since Black's was the best law dictionary available, we
(especailly law students) did not dwell on them. We were very grateful for
those

>"scraps
>of what is said to be law -- Anglo-Saxon law, Hindu, Japanese, Jewish,
>Greek, Spanish, French, Roman, canon, ecclesiastical, civil, and something
>called 'Old European' law," "disembodied snatches of law French and
>Latin," "claptrap from the feudal system ... the armor, the weapons, the
>ancient customs.

Thank you for citing your J. article. And for info re editions 1-4.

Bethany


From c0654038 at TECHST02.TECHNION.AC.IL  Sun Nov 14 13:06:45 1999
From: c0654038 at TECHST02.TECHNION.AC.IL (Alexey I. Fuchs)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 15:06:45 +0200
Subject: Writing question
In-Reply-To: <382CCF2F.24B5E0F1@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.150645.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Please, do not offend programmers. You show a clear case of Wellerism.
The market is overloaded with books on computers written by illiterate
money-seekers. Work with the computers requires some effort. The user
wants to make everything with one finger. The fact that a system, or a
program, or an application is made for the user does not mean that it is
made for an idiot. If you want to drive a car, even with automatic gears,
you have to _learn_ to do it, though it may seem very simple.
Now, you complain you cannot _learn_ because the muddles are impenetrable.
I admit there are jerks in the field who don't care about how the
documentation is written, but this is not the usual case with commercial
products, for support costs much more than development. In good companies,
documentation is written by people who are specially trained for that.
Take Microsoft as an example: they create profitable, user-friendly, easy
to use crap, which, in fact, is not worth a penny. But look at the
documentation: it is brilliant. The user goes crazy.
The point is: just pay attention. Even if a programmer is not skilled in
writing, his grammatically incorrect sentences are logically impeccable.
I beg your pardon, if I slide off the rail, but this issue is hurtful.
And if I see a "computer genius," who writes "press button if not open
window to double-click when scheduler process open dialog boxes," it
pisses me off not less, for it is true that the program is even more
unusable when it lacks documentation.

The best manuals are written by the best experts.
Best books for kids are not written by kids or even by writers-by-chance.
Think of Jacob Grimm and J.R.R.Tolkien.

Sorry again,

                                                A.Fuchs

On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Bob Fitzke wrote:

> Pafra & Scott Catledge wrote:
>
> > >
> > > I wouldn't be happy if English majors with no training in computers
> > > tried to create an operating system I would have to use on my computer.
> > > Why should I be forced to accept the impenetrable muddles written by
> > > computer geniuses with no knowledge of writing?
> > >
> > > -- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
> > > PEACE !!!
> >
> > You hit the nail on the head; I always prattle on that the best "how-to"
> > manuals are written by a naive writer with the expert assistance of
> > someone in the field.
>
> My view has been that computer instructions are written by folks who want to
> globally explain everything  the computer can do. They should be written from
> the perspective of the user, the person who wants to do something specific.
> And far too often the instructions use several words for the same item or
> thing; a practice that would screw up a program these instruction-writers
> would construct.  When you think about it, it boggles the mind that thousands
> of teachers daily and successfully give instructions to millions of kids about
> how to do things they, the kids, have never done before. At a fraction of what
> these computer types are paid.
>


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Sun Nov 14 14:59:15 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 08:59:15 -0600
Subject: Books on computers  (was Re: Writing question)
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.085915.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: Alexey I. Fuchs <c0654038 at TECHST02.TECHNION.AC.IL>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 1999 7:06 AM
Subject: Re: Writing question


> Please, do not offend programmers. You show a clear case of Wellerism.
> The market is overloaded with books on computers written by illiterate
> money-seekers. Work with the computers requires some effort.


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Sun Nov 14 18:40:50 1999
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:40:50 -0500
Subject: Writing question
In-Reply-To: <382CCF2F.24B5E0F1@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.134050.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> You hit the nail on the head; I always prattle on that the
> best "how-to" manuals are written by a naive writer with the
> expert assistance of someone in the field.

Having written over 30 "how to" books in my day, I can tell you that the
best ones are written by people who are experts in what they are writing
about, but who also *remember* what it was like to be a naive and
frustrated beginner. Despite their expertise, these writers are able to
get inside the head of the new user and empathize with their plight.
I've written many an advanced book where this doesn't apply so much, but
my favorite books to write are the "Idiot's Guides" that are aimed at
rank beginners. They're incredibly fun and challenging to write, and
they supply off-the-scale satisfaction when someone emails to say that
you've simplified a piece of their life.

Paul
http://www.mcfedries.com/books/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 14 22:17:03 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:17:03 EST
Subject: Stealth fat
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.171703.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

STEALTH FAT

   This headline is from the New York Times, 13 November 1999, pg. 11, col. 6:

_F.D.A. Calls_
_For Listing_
_'Stealth Fat'_
_On Labels_

   Just what I need to be worried about!  Stealth fat!  Fat that no one can see!
   There are just a few hits on the Dow Jones database.  The earliest seems to be the Toronto Globe and Mail, 5 May 1998, pg. A1.
   There will be a new "trans fat free" claim for foods containing less than half a gram of trans fat and a half gram of saturated fat per serving.  T.F.F.  hows up on the PR Newswire from 20 October 1992.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 14 23:25:47 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 18:25:47 EST
Subject: "Gentleman's C" & JSTOR
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.182547.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GENTLEMAN'S C (continued)

    JSTOR is the first place to look for "Gentleman's C" because the database contains the _Journal of Higher Education_.  You must type in "Gentlemans C"--otherwise you get "Gentleman s C" and no hits.
    The four hits are all from 1958-1961 (and I don't know why):

JOURNAL OF NEGRO EDUCATION, Summer 1959, pg. 258--"Gentleman's C student."
JOURNAL OF EDUCATIONAL SOCIOLOGY, February 1960 (revision of a paper read at the annual meeting of The American Psychological Association, Sept. 1958), pg. 260--"Everyone has heard of 'the Gentleman's C.'"
JOURNAL OF HIGHER EDUCATION, May 1960, pg. 263--"...gives promise of wanting to graduate college with more than a 'gentleman's C.'"
JOURNAL OF HIGHER EDUCATION, October 1961, pg. 404--"The relative frivolity of the most recent era, with its football weekends, its 'gentleman's C,' its crowded social calendar, and its 'rah! rah!' campus atmosphere, is inevitably waning."

--------------------------------------------------------
MEXICO (continued)

MEXICAN MINUTE--The Dow Jones database has this in the Dallas Morning News, 4-20-1986, pg. 9G.

PEPITO--The Dow Jones database has this in the Houston Chronicle, 3-21-1987, pg. 6, "The waiter said it was not a sandwich, just a Pepito, named perhaps after a plump little cook who invented (no doubt at an American's request) the plump little sandwiches."


From ronnieg at STARGATE.NET  Mon Nov 15 01:52:47 1999
From: ronnieg at STARGATE.NET (Ronnie & Michiko Goodwin)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 20:52:47 -0500
Subject: Non-Standard English/Language/Dialect
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.205247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ADS-lers:

I would appreciate any and all information that you could lend me regarding
my question to you.   If I asked you what is a/the definition of
non-standard English / language / dialect,  what would you tell me?

Yours sincerely,

Ronnie
ronnieg at stargate.net


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 15 02:40:48 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:40:48 EST
Subject: "The Gentleman's Grade" (1907)
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.214048.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"When President Lowell declared war on the Gentleman C, he was acting in the
correct and powerful conviction that the basic attitude toward learning which
it represented was a denial of the purpose of the institution."
--McGeorge Bundy, "Were Those the Days?", HARPER'S, Summer 1970, pg. 560.

     All these citations are from Harvard.
     "The Gentleman's Grade" by William Trufant Foster (Bowdoin College,
Brunswick, ME), EDUCATIONAL REVIEW, April 1907, pp. 386-392, is the leading
article.  It begins:

     "The saying that 'C is a gentleman's grade' is evidently an imperfect
defense for the idler in Harvard College."  So says the report of the
President.  (...)  The grade C stands for Commonplace Lane, no doubt: and, by
a kind of majority vote, it stands for "the gentleman's grade."  All students
like to be considered gentlemen, and a majority would attain no such
distinction if the demands of scholarship were higher.  Indeed the C men
would win every time on a (pg. 387) two-thirds vote.  President Eliot, in
praising what has been done at Harvard to raise the standard of daily work
among the less ambitious students, taken alphabetically from the class of
1905, only 36 attained A or B in even half their courses.

     From AT WAR WITH ACADEMIC TRADITIONS IN AMERICA (1934) by A. Lawrence
Lowell:

Pg. 73 (from a 1910 speech):  A generation ago he was called "grind," but now
he is often referred to as a "greasy grind."
Pg. 349 (from Annual Report, 1931-1932):  We do not hear the term "greasy
grind" or "greaser," so commonly applied to men of high rank a generation
ago.  "C is the gentleman's mark" is no longer a phrase to express a belief,
or excuse indolence.

     From WHAT A UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT HAS LEARNED (1938) by A. Lawrence
Lowell, pg. 69:

     This was the time when "C was the gentleman's mark"; when, in
fashionable groups, outsiders of scholarly rank were as a class often
referred to as "greasy grinds"; when "prizes should be left to greasers."


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov 15 11:43:29 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 06:43:29 -0500
Subject: the last additions to whiting
In-Reply-To: <473F2C465C@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.064329.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, GEORGE THOMPSON wrote:

> 1847:   as the showman says, "you pays your money and you takes your
> choice"
>         Sunday Times and Noah's Weekly Messenger, June 27, 1847, p. 2, col.
> 3; also ST&NWM, July 18, 1847, p. 2, col. 6
>
> not in DAE; nor Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting: 1869 (Money, #11);
> OED?

Note that OED has 1845 and 1846 examples of this.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 15 15:54:01 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:54:01 EST
Subject: "You pays your money..."
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.105401.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"As the peep-show man says: 'Whichever you please; you pay your money, and
takes your choice.'"
--NOTES AND QUERIES, 11 April 1868, pg. 334.

    See: www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/ilej.
    This site has Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine, Gentleman's Magazine, Notes
and Queries, and Philosphical Transactions of the Royal Society.
    The fact that "you pays your money" doesn't come up earlier probably
means we're talking about American peep shows (Barnum?).
    Maybe I should do "peep show."


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Nov 15 17:03:16 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:03:16 -0800
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.090316.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does "chick" have any roots in Spanish "chica", or is
its etymology entirely within the English language(s)
and only in reference to an animal?

Can the apparently resurgent popularity of "chick" be
tied to increasing exposure to Spanish, in which
"chica" has a different, less patronizing meaning?

JIM (who's brother-in-law, of Swiss ancestory, was
known as "Chico" all his life.)

--- Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
wrote:
> The women, and thankfully men, who are surprised or
> take offense at the
> term know of the long history of trying to get rid
> of animal-based terms
> for women (far fewer animal words are used for men).
>   So now they're
> coming back!  What kind of connotation does 'chick'
> have for you--little,
> soft, cute, fluffy, playful, high-peeped, to be
> cuddled in the palm of the
> hand?  Is this how you want to be viewed?  And,
> maybe more importantly, do
> only your female friends use this term (mutually, I
> assume), or do your
> male friends use it too--non-mutually, I assume?  Or
> do you call young
> males 'chicks' also?
>
> At 12:13 PM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >I am in college.  Now and in high school, my
> friends and I have used
> >"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We
> do not take offense to
> >it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are
> surprised that we use the
> >term.
> >What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some
> people?
> >
> >-Beth Bradley
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Tom Kysilko [mailto:pds at VISI.COM]
> >Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 1:41 AM
> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >Subject: Chick
> >
> >
> >Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":
> >
> >The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the
> Carleton College alumni
> >magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of
> high school girls from
> >SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of
> the article is "Moby
> >Chick".
> >
> >
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
> >   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>




=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Nov 15 17:10:40 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:10:40 -0800
Subject: "on the bubble"
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.091040.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've always assumed (always dangerous!) that such
phrases referred to the bubble in a level, transit or
similar tool; "on the bubble" meaning square, level,
true, or plumb, or more broadly accurate, sure, "on
the mark", etc.

JIM

--- Joseph McCollum <prez234 at JUNO.COM> wrote:

> Other subject:  From where does "on the bubble"
> originate?  I know the
> term from the NCAA basketball tournament, but I used
> it saying that I was
> "on the bubble" for a promotion.  A friend asked me
> what it meant, and I
> myself wasn't sure.  The only thing I could think of
> would be some
> insect, perhaps, on the bubble that is about to
> burst.
> The other thing would be a bubble of water that acts
> as a magnifying
> glass -- those "on the bubble" receive extra
> scrutiny.
>






=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Mon Nov 15 20:41:08 1999
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:41:08 -0800
Subject: Chick)
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.124108.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Other subject:  From where does "on the bubble" originate?

Just a hunch: A "level" is a tool used to determine if something is in the
plane "parallel" to the surface of the earth (can't figure out any other way
to describe it!) The "level" has glass tube, (sometimes several so as to be
used for checking "plumb" and 45 degree angles) with a liquid in it and a
small amount of air. If the object being checked is "level" the bubble of air
centers between two marks on the tube. "On the bubble" would mean level.
Therefore, the slightest perturbation would shift the "balance" or alter the
status quo. Applied to the athletic world, I've always taken it to mean that
a team (or someone angling for a promotion) "on the bubble" is a team that
could be picked or not, depending on what other perturbations ensue or
eventuate, as Howard might have said.

Bob


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Mon Nov 15 17:01:07 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:01:07 -0500
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.120107.0500.>

James Smith wrote:
Can the apparently resurgent popularity of "chick" be

> tied to increasing exposure to Spanish, in which
> "chica" has a different, less patronizing meaning?
>

Hey, wasn't this what I just said last week?

Lynne
--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From pds at VISI.COM  Mon Nov 15 19:33:22 1999
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:33:22 -0600
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.133322.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg Downing wrote:
>If "history" was
>stigmatizable as patriarchal (I heard this many times as an undergrad in the
>late 1970's), then to be consistent and thorough woman ("wife-person")
>should also have been stigmatized, as I mentioned in the post to which you
>are responding here.

And, of course, it was so "stigmatized" -- by those who gave us "wymyn".



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov 15 20:19:28 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:19:28 -0500
Subject: Defusing derogatory language
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.151928.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This appeared in LINGUIST List #10-1728.
I think many readers of this list will find it interesting and have things to
say.
Please reply to the poster, NOT to me.


Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:33:23 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
From: Cote, Sharon A <cotesa at jmu.edu>
Subject: Defusing derogatory language

I have a student who is looking for research on the use of
epithets among members of a minority group originally
targeted by these terms.  In particular, he is interested
in studies of the extent to which the power of an epithet
can be defused when the target group "claims" the word for
themselves.

Can anyone suggest some good references on this subject?

Thanks in advance,

Sharon Cote

Sharon A. Cote
Assistant Professor of Linguistics
English Department, James Madison University
Keezell 221, x2510
cotesa at jmu.edu


From greg at PULLIAM.ORG  Mon Nov 15 20:38:01 1999
From: greg at PULLIAM.ORG (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:38:01 -0600
Subject: Writing question
In-Reply-To: <3829DDC4.52EBEE0D@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.143801.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are such studies--and I can't find them right now.  But I'm
pretty sure they support the claim that all upper case is harder to
read.

This is strange to me, because at the 4 radio and 2 television
stations I used to work for, copy was always produced in all caps, on
the stated premise that it was easier to see.

I'll keep looking for the study--I know I've got at least a reference
here somewhere.

Greg


>Greetings, all,
>
>Does anyone know of a study done showing whether or not uppercase letters are
>more difficult to read than lowercase?
>
>Thanks for any info,
>Andrea


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Nov 15 21:25:30 1999
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:25:30 -0800
Subject: articles
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.132530.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A colleague who teaches Chinese just asked me where she might go for help
in learning how to use definite and indefinite articles in English. I had
suggested some corrections on her syllabus, and she responded by saying
that, because Chinese doesn't have articles, the English articles are very
hard for her to learn. Does anyone have a notion where she might look?
Thanks.

Peter Richardson


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Mon Nov 15 21:17:38 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:17:38 -0500
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.161738.0500.>

Greg, I can support that reminiscince from my radio days.  I remember reading
both UPI (now gone, but not forgotten) and AP stories in all caps.  I never had
that much problem reading it, but I'm working on foggy memories from my salad
days.  For those interested, I'm just now finishing my soup and heading into the
main course.

Greg Pulliam wrote:

> There are such studies--and I can't find them right now.  But I'm
> pretty sure they support the claim that all upper case is harder to
> read.
>
> This is strange to me, because at the 4 radio and 2 television
> stations I used to work for, copy was always produced in all caps, on
> the stated premise that it was easier to see.
>
> I'll keep looking for the study--I know I've got at least a reference
> here somewhere.

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                        "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 15 22:54:16 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:54:16 EST
Subject: Love Feast
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.175416.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

LOVE FEAST

   Hillary's recent 52nd birthday party was described as a political lovefest (NEW YORK OBSERVER).  Governor George Pataki's endorsement of Rudy Giuliani for Senate was also a love feast.  So much love!
   From William Safire's NEW POLITICAL DICTIONARY (1993--hey, is the revision coming out next year?), pg. 422:

LOVE FEAST (...)  The religious phrase was probably introduced into politics by Mark Twain and Charles Dudley Warner in 1873 in the novel _The Gilded Age_, a story about the politics of Reconstruction.  The newspaper in the fictional Washington, D.C., is so much the supporter of the corrupt status quo that it is called the _Daily Love-Feast_.

     We can place "love-feast" a little earlier in the Reconstruction period.
     I've been searching through HARPER'S WEEKLY (the computer index).  While looking for something else, I found this, from 29 April 1871, pg. 379, col. 1:

     _A PATRIOTIC LOVE-FEAST._
     THERE was recently an extraordinary love-feast in the city.  Mr. GREELEY was one of the party, and the ex-rebel General IMBODEN another.  Mr. CHARLES W. GODARD, lately one of the most active Repbulican leaders, took sweet counsel with Mr. JOHN MITCHEL, recently a rebel editor in Richmond, previously an aspirant for an Alabama plantation, and earlier an Irish patriot and exile.  There were other gentlemen present, and all were gathered for an admirable purpose.  Indeed, it is pleasant to read the record of the meeting, and to feel that those who differ so warmly in politics can harmoniously meet and discuss as friends a policy which is truly that of patriotism and peace.  For the object of the meeting was the establishment of a national emigration bureau to assist those who wish to settle in colonies already formed, or to found new settlements. (...)

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

   Doesn't anyone remember that we just discussed "on the bubble" and its origin at the Indy 500?  Check the archives.
   McGeorge Bundy was a teacher/dean at Harvard from 1949-1960.  His "Were Those the Days?" (quoted in my Gentleman's C posting) appeared in DAEDULUS (not HARPER'S).
   Sorry for the error.  I've been working too hard.  I need a vacation.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 16 06:04:28 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 01:04:28 EST
Subject: Ric Burns's NEW YORK (continued)
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.010428.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    I've read the book and I've now seen two episodes of Ric Burns's NEW YORK.
    It's not awful just because of the Big Apple (which it never mentions),
Gotham (which it falsely describes as a mythical city), or the Empire State
(which it falsely attributes to the era of DeWitt Clinton).
    It's not awful just because Ric Burns neglects to discuss anything at all
about New York speech, that he never consulted the American Dialect Society,
that he has actors speak in all sorts of varying dialects, and that he never
bothered to talk to William Labov (author of THE SOCIAL STRATIFICATION OF
ENGLISH IN NEW YORK CITY).
    It's awful because there's this segment in Part II where candidate
Abraham Lincoln sets foot in New York City in 1860, and the narrator mentions
that the song "Dixie" came from New York the year before, and the background
music is Bizet's CARMEN (Paris premiere in 1875)!
    It's awful because we're also told in Part II that Walt Whitman was
playing baseball in the 1820s.  (We're never told that baseball was invented
in New York about a decade later.  You'd think Burns would know baseball!)
    It's awful because:

1.  MISSING HISTORY--No mention of  the explorer Verrazano, the city's flag
(with a Dutch man named "Dexter"),  the John Peter Zenger trial, Nathan Hale,
the Astor Place riots, the Crystal Palace, Clement Clarke Moore's "Night
Before Christmas," Edgar Allan Poe, the Tombs prison, shysters, hookers, the
first tenament building...
2.  OVERSTATED HISTORY--Burns is obviously in love with Walt Whitman and F.
Scott Fitzgerald.  Whitman took up over half of Part II!
3.  ANACHRONISMS/EDITORIALS--Olmstead didn't desire to bar
"African-Americans" from Central Park.  The British were said to have done
"intolerable acts" against the "patriots."
4.  HYPERBOLE--The worst sin of the series.  The grid was "the greatest act
in Western civilization."  The Erie Canal made New York "the most splendid
commercial city on the face of the earth."  Manhattan was "a natural location
for a great city."  The early 1800s immigration "was the beginning of the
greatest run any city has ever had."  LEAVES OF GRASS was not only good, but
"nothing like it had ever been written in the English language."
5.  POOR DOCUMENTATION--When a passage is narrated, it ends with "Barnum" or
"Trollope" or "New York Times."  When did they say this?  In one case, the
quote was for a period before the New York Times began.  Was the quote from
the other paper with the same name?  (BTW, the New York Times sponsors the
series, but that fact was never mentioned in last Friday's review.)
6.  NO PERIOD MUSIC--The Erie Canal was discussed for 30 minutes.  You expect
the famous "Erie Canal" song.  It's never played.  "Dixie" was never played.
You'd never know that there were minstrel shows in New York and popular
Bowery entertainments.
7.  TALKING HEADS--Too many "scholars" are featured, instead of narrating a
story.  And what's Fran Lebowitz doing among them?

     Ooh, I'm so mad...


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Tue Nov 16 14:49:38 1999
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:49:38 -0600
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.084938.0600.>

Alyosha, you have pushed my hot button.  I was horrified when I read the
whole message that appears below: it's too long, it's too emotional, and
writing it kept me up all night. I claim fogiveness on the grounds that
I have been assembling my new, improved computer out of spare parts
without benefit of a manual.

"Alexey I. Fuchs" wrote:
>
> Please, do not offend programmers. You show a clear case of Wellerism.

Please forgive my ignorance -- or my aging memory! I don't know what you
mean by Wellerism.

> The market is overloaded with books on computers written by illiterate
> money-seekers.

You are absolutely right.  Before I buy a book, most especially a book
about computers, I take a very close look at those parts of the book
that deal with matters I learned elsewhere.  If the authors get that
part wrong, I don't wait to discover what else they have done badly. I
just go on to some other book.

> Work with the computers requires some effort. The user
> wants to make everything with one finger.

Maybe some users do.  I use a computer because it helps me get to my
objectives, which usually have nothing to do with computers as such.  A
computer is a tool.  When I get a new tool, I want to learn how to use
it with reasonable efficiency and maximum effectiveness in accomplishing
the work I try to do with it. Most original equipment manuals don't help
the end user learn to use the product.

> The fact that a system, or a
> program, or an application is made for the user does not mean that it
> is made for an idiot.

Of course not. The idiots do the marketing.

> If you want to drive a car, even with automatic gears,
> you have to _learn_ to do it, though it may seem very simple.
> Now, you complain you cannot _learn_ because the muddles are impenetrable.

No, I claim that I cannot learn what I need to know by reading the
manual that comes with the apparatus, the program, the tool I want to
use.  It's the muddles _in the writing_ that I find impenetrable.  So I
stop what I want to be doing and figure out what my new tool can do. I
explore long enough to have a good idea of how it works, and I try to
find its limits by asking it to do more than the item's wrapper
suggests. Several hours or days later, sheer trial and error leads to my
learning how to use two obvious and three obscure functions in the least
efficient manner possible.  Then, and only then, the producer's manual
becomes semi-intelligible, but only for those functions whose abilities
and limits I've already discovered through trial and error.

> I admit there are jerks in the field who don't care about how the
> documentation is written, but this is not the usual case with
> commercial products, for support costs much more than development.

And the companies selling the products find it easier and easier to bury
essential parts of the instructions in plain sight.  At the same time,
more and more companies charge extra for support service. Some only
accept calls for technical support during "normal business hours".  Any
thought that the policy might be as reasonable as it sounds disappears
when you discover that the normal business hours they're talking about
are measured by local time at their branch offices in Middle
Kabumdiddle.  They never tell you that it is customary in Middle
Kabumdiddle to abstain from doing business during any sabbath or other
sacred day in the combined sacred calendars of Christianity, Islam,
Judaism, Buddhism, Confucianism, and Bill Gates.

Yes, support costs more than development.  But not if you  give up
providing support.

> In good companies,  documentation is written by people who are        > specially trained for that.

That is exactly what we're talking about.  Unfortunately, there are very
few good companies.

> Take Microsoft as an example: they create profitable, user-friendly,
> easy to use crap, which, in fact, is not worth a penny. But look at
> the documentation: it is brilliant. The user goes crazy.

I admit that Microsoft's documentation is brilliant when used for its
purpose, which is to drive the user crazy.  After recovering, the user
is forced to try to use the software because it cost lots more than a
penny and it's impossible to escape being charged for it. It then turns
out that the software as provided lacks seventeen essential patches --
which Microsoft will provide when you purchase an "upgrade" whose only
purpose is to correct shortcomings that should never have been inflicted
on the public in the first place.

> The point is: just pay attention. Even if a programmer is not skilled
> in writing, his grammatically incorrect sentences are logically
> impeccable.

I will grant that may be true -- but the logic can only be understood by
people who speak all three of the extinct languages of Middle
Kabumdiddle.  Without that knowledge, it is very hard to know what
action is called for when the instructions say "off grass please be
staying away from unless in condition of A3".

> I beg your pardon, if I slide off the rail, but this issue is hurtful.
> And if I see a "computer genius," who writes "press button if not open
> window to double-click when scheduler process open dialog boxes," it
> pisses me off not less, for it is true that the program is even more
> unusable when it lacks documentation.
>
> The best manuals are written by the best experts.
> Best books for kids are not written by kids or even by
> writers-by-chance.
> Think of Jacob Grimm and J.R.R.Tolkien.
>
> Sorry again,
>
>                                                 A.Fuchs

Don't stop in mid rule!  The complete statement is "the best manuals are
written by the best experts, provided that those experts have taken the
trouble to become expert writers."

Which brings us back to my original question:

I wouldn't be happy if English majors with no training in computers
tried to create an operating system I would have to use on my computer.
Why should I be forced to accept the impenetrable muddles written by
computer geniuses with no knowledge of writing?

-- mike salovesh       <salovesh at niu.edu>      PEACE !!!


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Nov 16 16:10:12 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:10:12 -0800
Subject: "on the bubble"
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.081012.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Okay, I checked the archives.  Interesting how an
expression can have a meaning almost exactly opposite
to what I had assumed.

JIM




=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov 16 16:39:51 1999
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:39:51 -0800
Subject: Writing question
In-Reply-To: <38316F02.98A81E12@corn.cso.niu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.083951.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Right on again!  Go Mike!


From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Tue Nov 16 18:22:53 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:22:53 -0500
Subject: articles
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.132253.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

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From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov 16 19:38:25 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:38:25 -0500
Subject: articles
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19991116132145.006a5d24@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.143825.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:22 PM 11/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Peter Richardson wrote:
> >A colleague who teaches Chinese just asked me where she might go for help
> >in learning how to use definite and indefinite articles in English. I had
> >suggested some corrections on her syllabus, and she responded by saying
> >that, because Chinese doesn't have articles, the English articles are very
> >hard for her to learn. Does anyone have a notion where she might look?
> >Thanks.
> >
> >Peter Richardson
> >
>I like Grammar Dimensions: Book Two by Heidi Riggenbach and Viginia
>Samuda. It's for ESL/EFL students and has good explanations and
>interesting and practical exercises in the textbook as well as the
>workbook. I remembered the definite/indefinite article section in
>particular. I don't have Book One, so I can't shed light on that.
>
>It's from Heinle & Heinle of Boston; 1993 is my edition. The series
>director is Diane Larsen-Freeman who is, I believe, quite well-respected.
></blockquote></x-html>


And if your colleague wants more theoretical explanation, she can look at
_The Grammar Book_, by M. Celce-Murcia and D. Larsen-Freeman (2nd ed.,
Heinle & Heinle, 1999)--a massive and very comprehensive work designed for
teachers who must explain such intricacies as def/indef.
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From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 16 21:20:37 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:20:37 -0500
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.162037.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg Pulliam <greg at PULLIAM.ORG> writes:

>>>>>
There are such studies--and I can't find them right now.  But I'm
pretty sure they support the claim that all upper case is harder to
read.

This is strange to me, because at the 4 radio and 2 television
stations I used to work for, copy was always produced in all caps, on
the stated premise that it was easier to see.
<<<<<

Maybe only because typewritten caps are bigger than typewritten lowercase
letters. Additionally/alternatively*, that may have been simply an unsupported
assumption.

* The pedant's sentence-initial adverbial form of "and/or".

-- Mark


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov 16 23:30:11 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:30:11 -0500
Subject: Cancun drinks, Mass customization
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.183011.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Thursday, November 11, 1999, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>MASS CUSTOMIZATION
>
>   "Mass customization" (of cars) is in today's Wall Street
>Journal, cited as a new buzz phrase.

I'm guessing you're just pointing this out for the record, but it ain't new, that's
for sure. I did a client research report on mass customization in 1996, though the
concept has caught fire lately.

Not having read the story, a hunnert bucks said they mentioned Levi's in it.

[My primary computer's been the shop, thus the late replies].


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov 16 23:58:38 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:58:38 -0500
Subject: All Caps Radio, TV Copy
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.185838.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

As I understood it from my short time in radio, the all caps was a hold-over from
teletype machines: all they printed was capital letters. My guess is that the
easier-to-read justifications came later.

I only believe the easier-to-read mumbo jumbo on two levels: all caps requires the
reader to pay more attention and thus may not mis-read words that have the same shape;
and typewriters were typically limited to 10 or 12 point type, 12 point all caps was
as big as the words could get. All theory, of course.


--
Grant Barrett

http://www.worldnewyork.com/


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov 16 23:58:40 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:58:40 -0500
Subject: Ric Burns's NEW YORK
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.185840.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

Yeah, the dialects: some of the so-called Southern accents sound like the products
of speech coaches rather than upbringing.

It's also bad because, minus crapola images of no redeeming value that stay
on-screen about twice as long as necessary, redundant talking heads, glacial narration and
indulgent pauses, this could have been a tightly edited and exciting show about
one-third the length.

And I know Pete Hamill is a smart guy. I like him, and his writing, and his
toughness. But I hardly think he qualifies to speak as an expert on anything but an anecdotal
level of New York City history (excepting his lifespan, of course).


--
Grant Barrett, who recently found a color television on the street, took it home,
reconnected a single wire inside, and now has a perfectly working television.


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Wed Nov 17 00:17:21 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:17:21 -0500
Subject: Videomalaise
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.191721.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

Came across "virtual circle" but more interesting is "video malaise." From the Scout
Report.

 _A Virtuous Circle: Political Communications in Post-Industrial
Democracies_ [.pdf]
http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/people/pnorris/AVirtuous/Chapter14.pdf

The John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University has
posted the complete draft text of this study of the state of the
media in a technological age by Harvard Scholar Pippa Norris.
Norris's unconventional thesis is that, contrary to the conclusions
of many public intellectuals and academics, the dramatic changes in
the forms of journalism in the last 20 years have not created a civic
culture of cynicism, sensationalism, and "videomalaise." Drawing
heavily on public opinion datasets and statistics about media use,
Norris, in readable and engaging prose, makes the case that, while
the profile of the media has significantly changed in post-industrial
democracies, they are still serving a democratic process: that is,
"public attention to the news media gradually reinforces civic
engagement, just as civic engagement strengthens attention to the
media." The study is scheduled for publication by Cambridge
University Press in the Fall of 2000. Note: figures and tables appear
at the end of each chapter in this online version. [DC]


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 16 23:48:55 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:48:55 -0500
Subject: just now and now now (again)
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.184855.0500.>

Continuing to clean out my files, and came across this:

Wright, Susan.  1987.  "Now now" not "just now":  The interpretation of
temporal deictic expressions in South African English.  African Studies
46:2.163-78.

Her diagram of future time is something like:

now------>now now------>just now------->

Lynne, who's gotten to the end of the alphabet

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 17 05:06:46 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:06:46 EST
Subject: Murphy's Law (John Paul Stapp obituary)
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.000646.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     I had written here a few months ago that John Paul Stapp had been ill.
He has died at age 89.
     This is from his obituary in the New York Times, 16 November 1999, pg.
B13, cols. 1-5:

Col. 1:  He won what will perhaps be even more lasting fame in a test five
years earlier, when he suffered injuries owing to a mistake by a Captain
Murphy.  The result: Murphy's Law.
Col. 3:  Dr. Stapp, who was known for his razor-sharp wit, suffered an injury
in the experiment that inspired Murphy's Law after a somewhat less rapid sled
ride in 1949.
     An assistant, Capt. Edward A. Murphy, Jr., had designed a harness to
strap in the rider.  The harness held 16 sensors to measure the acceleration,
or G-force, on different body parts.  There were exactly two ways each sensor
could be installed.  Captain Murphy did each one the wrong way.
     The result was that when Dr. Stapp staggered off the rocket sled with
bloodshot eyes and bleeding sores, all the sensors registered zero.  He had
been strained in vain.
     A distraught Captain Murphy proclaimed the original version of the
famous maxim: "If there are two or more ways to do something and one of those
results in a catastrophe, then someone will do it that way."

     This is wrong.
     I have tried very hard to verify this story with contemporaneous
documentary evidence, but I didn't find any, nor did Edwards Air Force Base.
Even according to the "official" version of the story, it wasn't Murphy who
had installed the part the wrong way--Murphy commented that SOMEONE ELSE had
installed the part the wrong way.  Murphy also wasn't an assistant--he was
brought there by the sled's manufacturer, Northrop.  Stapp worked for the
government.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
Ric Burns's NEW YORK (continued)

     Episode Three featured the Brooklyn Bridge.  David Shulman's work on
Brooklyn Bridge jumper and Bowery legend Steve Brodie wasn't misused--Brodie
wasn't used at all.
     Also never mentioned were Henry Ward Beecher, Daniel Drew, Russell Sage,
Nelly Bly, the Daily Graphic, yellow journalism, dudes, Tony Pastor, the
Diana statue on Madison Square Garden, the Dewey/Washington Square Arch (seen
but never explained), Grant's Tomb (seen but never explained), Gramercy Park,
Puck magazine (and the Puck Building), Life magazine (and the Life building),
the National Police Gazette, the creation of New York's "Finest," the city
beautiful movement...
    The 1898 unification of Greater New York was "without parallel anywhere
in world history."  We learn that "there had never been anyone quite like
William Tweed."  New York would "become home to the greatest concentration of
wealth in human history" and "become one of the most eerily divided places on
earth."
    The wonderful song "Sidewalks of New York" was sung (without
accompaniment) like a funeral dirge.
    The 1883 opening of the Brooklyn Bridge was greeted with even more Walt
Whitman quotes, fireworks, and the playing of John Philip Sousa's "The Stars
and Stripes Forever"--a march that was first written in 1897!


From LilacRaven at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 17 05:11:52 1999
From: LilacRaven at AOL.COM (Becca Greenhill)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:11:52 EST
Subject: "off the chain"
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.001152.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Recently, I was told that I was "off the chain."  I believe it was a
compliment.  Can anyone help me understand the meaning/origin of this phrase?
 I wonder if the meaning is something close to that of "off the wall."  In
that case, maybe it wasn't a compliment.  Any thoughts?

Becca


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 17 12:06:26 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:06:26 -0500
Subject: Student wants to Study abroad
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.070626.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have received the ff. query from an 11th-grade student; can you
suggest something?

Thanks,
Bethany

>>I am writing to inquire about programs and opportunities concerning
>studying abroad.  I am planning to travel to Japan this summer to visit
>my cousin, whose husband is stationed in Yakuska.  While in Japan, I
>would like to be involved in some type of program for gifted studies,
>student exchange program, or some other worthwhile cause.  I know very
>little about what opportunities may be available to me.  I am sure that
>while visiting Japan, I could enrich myself both culturally and
>academically.  Whatever information you could send would be greatly
>appreciated.  If you know of someone I could contact to learn more about
>opportunities in Japan, please send that information as well.  Thank you
>so much for your time.


From bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM  Wed Nov 17 19:08:12 1999
From: bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM (Bookrat)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:08:12 -0800
Subject: Talk of the Nation -- Regional dialects
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.110812.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Those of you who live in the US and read this before 2:00 P.M. EST might
want to turn your radio to NPR's "Talk of the Nation".  Today's topic is
regional dialects.

Ken Miller
Institute for Unorthodox Orthoepy


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov 17 23:01:35 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:01:35 -0500
Subject: Student wants to Study abroad
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.180135.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bethany, I'm attaching suggestions from a Japanese professor at OU; he runs
our own Study Abroad in Japan, is a native speaker of Japanese, and has
contacts, as you'll see, with similar programs there.

At 07:06 AM 11/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I have received the ff. query from an 11th-grade student; can you
>suggest something?
>
>Thanks,
>Bethany
>
> >>I am writing to inquire about programs and opportunities concerning
> >studying abroad.  I am planning to travel to Japan this summer to visit
> >my cousin, whose husband is stationed in Yakuska.  While in Japan, I
> >would like to be involved in some type of program for gifted studies,
> >student exchange program, or some other worthwhile cause.  I know very
> >little about what opportunities may be available to me.  I am sure that
> >while visiting Japan, I could enrich myself both culturally and
> >academically.  Whatever information you could send would be greatly
> >appreciated.  If you know of someone I could contact to learn more about
> >opportunities in Japan, please send that information as well.  Thank you
> >so much for your time.


Hi Beverly,

There are several programs that a gifted high school student might find
attractive. I know just the person for Bethany (or the student) to contact.
She should call
the Center for the Improvement of Teaching Japanese Language and Culture In
High School (CITJ) at (217) 244-4808 and talk to either Barb Shenk or Hiroko
Ito. She should tell either of them that I suggested she call them for
advice about summer opportunities in Japan for gifted secondary students.
University High School (where CITJ is
housed) is a school for gifted students. Barb Shenk, the director of CITJ,
keeps up on summer programs and advertises about them in the CITJ newsletter.

The student might wait until next week to call, since this week is
ACTFL in Dallas. Both Shenk and Ito may be in Texas.

Christopher Thompson
Assistant Professor of Japanese
Ohio University, Athens
thompsoc at ohiou.edu


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 18 00:40:16 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:40:16 EST
Subject: Talk of the Nation -- Regional dialects
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.194016.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/17/1999 3:08:03 PM, bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM writes:

<< Those of you who live in the US and read this before 2:00 P.M. EST might
want to turn your radio to NPR's "Talk of the Nation".  Today's topic is
regional dialects.

Ken Miller
Institute for Unorthodox Orthoepy >>

Speakers: William Labov, Walt Wolfram, and Pemmy Eckert!!!!!!!


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Nov 18 01:35:34 1999
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:35:34 -0600
Subject: Query: "loopy"
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.193534.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     I've been wondering about the origin of "loopy" (= silly, daft), as in
"a loopy idea."
RHHDAS has helpful information about "looped" (drunk) and "go looping" (to
visit bars in order to get drunk).  But why "loop"?

     Was the starting point "go looping," with " loop" meaning roughly
"rounds?"  I.e., might "go looping" originally have meant "make the rounds
" (of the bars)?

     If not, might there be any other explanations?

---Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Thu Nov 18 02:02:48 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:02:48 -0500
Subject: Query: How Many English Words?
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.210248.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

This is  a broad query, but the broad spectrum of answers might be interesting.
Dictionary editors? Everyone? Please reply to the sender, although replies to the list
would be interesting, too.


How many words are there in the English language?

Dana Nagler
dnagler at forbes.com


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Nov 18 02:30:31 1999
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:30:31 -0800
Subject: the verb gank
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.183031.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

one of the consequences of being a Known [Admitted, Confessed,
Acknowledged] Linguist is that non-linguist friends expect you to know
the answer to any random question about language(s), or at least to
have the resources for finding the answer at your fingertips.
yesterday's Ask the Linguist query came from a friend who teaches
at appalachian state university in boone, n.c.:

>Where does the term "gank," for stealing, as in "I ganked
>this t-shirt from my ex-boyfriend." come from? Is it a
>blend of "grab" and "yank"?

my friend was surprised to hear that i'd never heard this verb
before, and that it was listed in neither RHHDAS nor DARE.  i
probed a bit:

>> how long have you heard this verb?  where, from whom, in what
>> contexts?

and she confirmed my suspicion that it was a piece of college slang
(and also added some semantic details):

>I've heard it over the past several months, primarily from
>college students. In asking around about the word today, most
>of my colleagues have not heard it in use. Students say that
>they've been using the word since at least this summer and that
>it is primarly used by college-aged individuals, but might be
>infiltrating down into high schools now. Also, while "ganking"
>clearly refers to stealing, the word denotes that the stealing
>is minor (ganking a roommate's pencil for an exam) or that the
>"victim" won't care (one of my colleagues ganks one of his
>brother's shirts almost every holiday that they spend time
>together). So, ganking kinda means "I stole this, but it
>doesn't matter, so it's not really stealing."

now, i'm no expert on the spread of lexical items, or on slang
(though i once played Dr. Slang on tv in columbus, ohio - a very
limited engagement), but i do wonder if this is a specifically
appstate thing, or if it has wider (probably collegiate) currency,
and if the latter, whether anything has been observed about its
spread.

(as for the semantics, it's close to that for the verb "swipe" of my
childhood.  useful to have a verb with less gravitas than "steal"...)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU  Thu Nov 18 02:59:26 1999
From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:59:26 -0500
Subject: the verb gank
In-Reply-To: <199911180230.SAA12176@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.215926.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    "Gank" isn't an especially new word.  My friends and I in southern
Illinois were using it in high school - four or five years ago - to mean
exactly this.  As I recall, it was used least by the upper-class kids.

    Johanna

Excerpts from mail: 17-Nov-99 the verb gank by Arnold Zwicky at CSLI.STANF
> >I've heard it over the past several months, primarily from
> >college students. In asking around about the word today, most
> >of my colleagues have not heard it in use. Students say that
> >they've been using the word since at least this summer and that
> >it is primarly used by college-aged individuals, but might be
> >infiltrating down into high schools now. Also, while "ganking"
> >clearly refers to stealing, the word denotes that the stealing
> >is minor (ganking a roommate's pencil for an exam) or that the
> >"victim" won't care (one of my colleagues ganks one of his
> >brother's shirts almost every holiday that they spend time
> >together). So, ganking kinda means "I stole this, but it
> >doesn't matter, so it's not really stealing."
>
> now, i'm no expert on the spread of lexical items, or on slang
> (though i once played Dr. Slang on tv in columbus, ohio - a very
> limited engagement), but i do wonder if this is a specifically
> appstate thing, or if it has wider (probably collegiate) currency,
> and if the latter, whether anything has been observed about its
> spread.
>


From LilacRaven at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 18 03:35:09 1999
From: LilacRaven at AOL.COM (Becca Greenhill)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:35:09 EST
Subject: the verb gank
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.223509.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have never heard the verb "gank" used to describe the act of borrowing or
stealing.  I have several friends in Northeastern KY and Southern WV who use
the word "cabbage" in that way.  "Who cabbaged my lighter?"


From kdann at ZOO.UVM.EDU  Thu Nov 18 03:54:05 1999
From: kdann at ZOO.UVM.EDU (Kevin Dann)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:54:05 -0500
Subject: Marguerite Chapallaz query
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.225405.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hello,

Thanks to the many kindnesses of Ellen Johnson, Bill Kretschmar, and other
staff and students at the Linguistic Atlas, I have managed to discover
that Marguerite Chapallaz, a LANE fieldworker who also did a tremendous
amount of the recording of LANE informants with and for Miles Hanley, was
perhaps as close a co-worker and confidant as Guy Lowman had during his
years in London and also over his years as a LANE fieldworker. I have been
trying to track down Marguerite's professional biography, so that I might
make inquiries about her papers. Can anyone give me any info that might
help? I promise to post a Lowman story in return.

Thanks,

Kevin Dann


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 18 04:49:05 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 23:49:05 EST
Subject: TIME OUT NY's Eating & Drinking
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.234905.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TIME OUT NEW YORK'S "EATING AND DRINKING"

    TIME OUT started in London, but a (largely unprofitable) New York edition
has been published recently.  The October 28-November 4, 1999 issue had "The
third annual Eating & Drinking Awards."  Also published has been EATING &
DRINKING 2000 (_TIME OUT NEW YORK_ NEW ANNUAL GUIDE), 264 pages, $9.95.
    It's a good way to check out food & drink trends.  Unfortunately, the
magazine is not on Nexis.
    The July 22-29, 1999 issue, pages 21 and 23, listed recipes of these
drinks from these places:

PIMM'S CUP (Blackbird bar)
WHITE PEACH FADEAWAY (Michael Jordan's Steakhouse NYC)
RED CAT COCKTAIL (The Red Cat)
ISLAND PUNCH (Negril)
WHITE SANGRIA (Boca Chica)
RED SNAPPER (A.K.A. BLOODY MARY) (St. Regis Hotel)
PINK LEMONADE (27 Standard)
MOJITO (L-Ray)

    The July 23-30, 1998 issue was devoted to "The top 25 summer cocktails."
>From pages 13-18:

PARTY DRINKS
1. P.M.S. (Local 138, Neil Lacy)
2. Purple Haze (Scully on Spring, Jennifer Hatzman)
3. Trojan (Barmacy, Jennifer Proctor)
4. Bongwater (Burrito Bar, Greg Yerman)
5. Blue Room Martini (Le Cirque 2000, Bill Ghodbane)
NEW CLASSICS
1. Soho Shaker (Magnum, Craig Ziser)
2. Bloody Oranj Martini (Cub Room, Dennis Mullally)
3. Belmont Breeze (Rainbow Promenade Bar, Dale Degroff)
4. Prairie Martini (The Grange Hall, Jacqui Smith)
5. Palmyra (Chez Es Saada, Holly Spencer)
COOL QUENCHERS
1. Pink Pussycat (Candy Bar & Grill, Andrew Currie)
2. Bible Belt (Cowgirl Hall of Fame, Johnny Ray)
3. Akira (Torch, Karmen Guy)
4. Mimosa par excellence ("21" Club, Michael Shannon)
5. Rainforest Tea (The Greatest Bar on Earth, Andrea Immer)
Bollini (Flute, CHairty Rebl)
TROPICAL
1. Tiki-puka-puka (Asia de Cuba, "any bartender will do")
2. Crocodile Cooler (Botanica, Susan Lee)
3. Passion Fruit Bolido Brasileira (Boca Chica, Jack Dammit (sic))
4. Caipirinha (Coffee Shop, Ahmir Araugo)
CLASSICS
1. Red Snapper (a.k.a. Bloody Mary) (The King Cole Bar and Lounge, Bill
Higgins)
2. Southside (Four Seasons, John Varro)
3. Grand Margarita (Grand Bar, Jay Rivera)
4. Bellini (Cipriani, Dino Carafa)
5. French 75 (Bar 6, Henry Lopez)

     I don't have the time to write out each drink, but will be request.
Anyone, this (with my other postings) is a start to recording some of these
names.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------Ric Burns's NEW YORK (briefly
continued)

    Wow, does this thing suck.
    There's one more episode on Thursday (it's supposed to be the best
one--NY in the 1920s) and then Ric Burns does the other 70 years in just two
hours in the spring.  It's all too much, and he does it badly.
    In episode four, half of it was devoted to the 146 people who died in the
1911 Triangle Shirtwaist factory fire.  You'd never know that 1021 people had
died in 1904 in the General Slocum maritime tragedy.
    You'd also never know that New York had a fire department, a police
department, any restaurants, Coney Island, Tin Pan Alley, Broadway, a borough
in Queens...
    I told a librarian that the 1911 opening of the New York Public Library
on 42nd and Broadway would be in part four.  The New York Public Library was
never mentioned!
    Daniel Patrick Moynihan was on hand to provide an insufficent etymology
of "skyscraper" (he claimed it was from ships from Liverpool; the term was
applied to lots of things that touched the sky, but started as the name of a
racehorse).


From mcalvert at ENTERPE.COM  Thu Nov 18 00:10:40 1999
From: mcalvert at ENTERPE.COM (Mike Calvert)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 00:10:40 +0000
Subject: phonetic phumble
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.001040.0000.>

For your amusement and edification, I pass on yet more evidence that the
road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Best,
Michael Calvert-fella
Press Enterprise
Bloomsburg, PA


MIAMI (AP) — Federal officials hoping to inform Haitian residents in the
Creole language about subsidized housing have delivered a pamphlet
written in an imitation Jamaican dialect.

It’s a tough read:

“Yuh as a rezedent, ave di rights ahn di rispansabilities to elp mek yuh
HUD-asisted owzing ah behta owme fi yuh ahn yuh fambily,” the pamphlet
states.

What the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development was trying to
say was: “You as a resident have the rights and the responsibilities to
help make your HUD-assisted housing a better home for you and your
family.”

The pamphlet, titled “Rezedents Rights and Rispansabilities,” came to
the attention of government officials after a citizen questioned its
contents. It had been signed by HUD’s top executive, “Sekretary Andrew
M. Cuomo fella.”

The pamphlet was intended to inform residents in Section 8 HUD housing
of their rights, responsibilities and the resources available from HUD.
Translations were printed in nine languages and Braille.

Haitian Creole, the national language of Haiti, is based on French,
while Jamaicans read and write standard English. The presumed language
of the HUD document is the spoken Jamaican dialect — translated
phonetically.


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Thu Nov 18 09:20:03 1999
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 04:20:03 -0500
Subject: phonetic phumble
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.042003.0500.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Calvert <mcalvert at enterpe.com>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, November 18, 1999 12:15 AM
Subject: phonetic phumble


>For your amusement and edification, I pass on yet more evidence that the
>road to hell is paved with good intentions.
>Best,
>Michael Calvert-fella
>Press Enterprise
>Bloomsburg, PA
>
>
>MIAMI (AP) — Federal officials hoping to inform Haitian residents in the
>Creole language about subsidized housing have delivered a pamphlet
>written in an imitation Jamaican dialect.
>
>It’s a tough read:
>
>“Yuh as a rezedent, ave di rights ahn di rispansabilities to elp mek yuh
>HUD-asisted owzing ah behta owme fi yuh ahn yuh fambily,” the pamphlet
>states.


Cecil's already on it...http://www.straightdope.com/

In other news...spotted McMansion in Doonesbury this morning (18 Nov).

Bruce


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Nov 18 09:29:12 1999
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse T Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 04:29:12 -0500
Subject: the verb gank
In-Reply-To: <199911180230.SAA12176@Turing.Stanford.EDU> from "Arnold Zwicky"
 at Nov 17, 99 06:30:31 pm
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.042912.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> >Where does the term "gank," for stealing, as in "I ganked
> >this t-shirt from my ex-boyfriend." come from? Is it a
> >blend of "grab" and "yank"?
>
> my friend was surprised to hear that i'd never heard this verb
> before, and that it was listed in neither RHHDAS nor DARE.  i
> probed a bit:

I am quite sure that _gank_ was discussed on ADS-L several
years ago (along with _gaffle,_ if memory serves). That was
the first I had heard of it. I'm not sure if we subsequently
uncovered any additional evidence for HDAS.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester at panix.com>


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Nov 18 11:08:30 1999
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 03:08:30 -0800
Subject: "off the chain"
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.030830.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Off the chain" like its recent predecessors, "off the
hook" and "da bomb," is an African American innovation
meaning great, fantastic, wonderful, extremely
exciting.

--- Becca Greenhill <LilacRaven at AOL.COM> wrote:
> Recently, I was told that I was "off the chain."  I
> believe it was a
> compliment.  Can anyone help me understand the
> meaning/origin of this phrase?
>  I wonder if the meaning is something close to that
> of "off the wall."  In
> that case, maybe it wasn't a compliment.  Any
> thoughts?
>
> Becca
>


=====
Margaret G. Lee, Associate Professor,English & Linguistics
Department of English
Hampton University
Hampton, VA 23668
Office: (757) 727-5437
Home: (757) 851-5773
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Thu Nov 18 13:06:57 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:06:57 -0500
Subject: TIME OUT NY's Eating & Drinking
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.080657.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Wednesday, November 17, 1999, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>The July 22-29, 1999 issue, pages 21 and 23, listed recipes of
>these
>drinks from these places:

>PIMM'S CUP (Blackbird bar)
>WHITE PEACH FADEAWAY (Michael Jordan's Steakhouse NYC)
>RED CAT COCKTAIL (The Red Cat)
>ISLAND PUNCH (Negril)
>WHITE SANGRIA (Boca Chica)
>RED SNAPPER (A.K.A. BLOODY MARY) (St. Regis Hotel)
>PINK LEMONADE (27 Standard)
>MOJITO (L-Ray)
>

I'd like to clarify on Barry's behalf that these drinks were not (necessarily)
invented by the establishments listed next to them.

Pink Lemonade is a standard drink taught in bar-tending classes (assuming its the
same Pink Lemonade).

I've had a Mojito in a coupla different bars, and as it is a rum and mint drink, I
think it more likely to have originated in Puerto Rico or Cuba or at least a Puerto
Rican or Cuban bar.

A Pimms Cup can be had about every third decent place, judging by the results of my
friend who drinks Pimms Cups when she can get them (compare to Pink Pimms and Pimms
and Lemonade). Pimms is the brand name.

Perhaps Time Out only meant to say, For these drinks, go to these bars that
specialize in them. At least in the case of the Mojito, the best one in New York City, and
I'm a rum drinker, is at Baraza on Avenue C.

--
Grant Barrett

http://www.worldnewyork.com/


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Thu Nov 18 13:18:31 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:18:31 -0500
Subject: off the chain
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.081831.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Wednesday, November 17, 1999, Becca Greenhill <LilacRaven at AOL.COM> wrote:
>Recently, I was told that I was "off the chain."  I believe it was a
>compliment.  Can anyone help me understand the meaning/origin of this phrase?
> I wonder if the meaning is something close to that of "off the wall."  In
>that case, maybe it wasn't a compliment.  Any thoughts?
>
>Becca
>

Pure guessing: maybe a relation to the chain attached to the large orange
exclamation mark in the sidelines of American football that measures whether a play has put the
ball into first down territory?

I wonder if we searched transcripts of football play-by-play we'd find this usage,
and more.

--
Grant Barrett

http://www.worldnewyork.com/


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Thu Nov 18 13:19:19 1999
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:19:19 -0500
Subject: Webnoize '99
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.081919.0500.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

A conference about online music and commerce...

One speaker brought us this (courtesy of mp3.com):

...He also made reference to the expanding role of traditional retailers as
both offline and online music sources, calling the new model "click and
mortar."

Bruce


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Thu Nov 18 14:42:41 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:42:41 -0600
Subject: Query: How Many English Words?
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.084241.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There can be no answer other than a broad estimate.  How many words in the
OED has no clear answer; how many entries in Webster's Third International
still requires a definition.  Major headings or all the subentries?  I was
told in Elementary school that the word 'run' has 700 meanings in English;
if true, is 'run' one word or 700?  When words become obsolete, are they
still words?  When a dictionary publisher states that 3,000 or 300,000 words
are included, I take that number to mean 3,000 or 300,000 main entries?  And
that bis not the question or is it?  Any dictionary publisher can include
only a sample (high ever high a percentage that sample might represent) of
the word population at a snapshot in time.  If we can define word as "main
entry" in a dictionary and specify whether obsolete and dialectical forms
are included, perhaps we could reach a consensus, but I doubt that we could
or would.  There is no clear answer among linguists as to how many languages
are spoken; obtaining unanimity on how many "words" are in a particular
language is even more doubtful.  I look forward to comments.  Scott Catledge
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 8:02 PM
Subject: Query: How Many English Words?


> This is  a broad query, but the broad spectrum of answers might be
interesting.
> Dictionary editors? Everyone? Please reply to the sender, although replies
to the list
> would be interesting, too.
>
>
> How many words are there in the English language?
>
> Dana Nagler
> dnagler at forbes.com


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 18 16:01:10 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:01:10 EST
Subject: Fwd: off the chain
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.110110.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


-------------- next part --------------
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Subject: Re: off the chain
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 18 15:08:01 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:08:01 -0400
Subject: Query: How Many English Words?
In-Reply-To: <001601bf31d3$2e78ea80$e17a1bcc@pafracat>
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.110801.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>There can be no answer other than a broad estimate.  How many words in the
>OED has no clear answer; how many entries in Webster's Third International
>still requires a definition.  Major headings or all the subentries?  I was
>told in Elementary school that the word 'run' has 700 meanings in English;
>if true, is 'run' one word or 700?  When words become obsolete, are they
>still words?  When a dictionary publisher states that 3,000 or 300,000 words
>are included, I take that number to mean 3,000 or 300,000 main entries?  And
>that bis not the question or is it?  Any dictionary publisher can include
>only a sample (high ever high a percentage that sample might represent) of
>the word population at a snapshot in time.  If we can define word as "main
>entry" in a dictionary and specify whether obsolete and dialectical forms
>are included, perhaps we could reach a consensus, but I doubt that we could
>or would.  There is no clear answer among linguists as to how many languages
>are spoken; obtaining unanimity on how many "words" are in a particular
>language is even more doubtful.  I look forward to comments.  Scott Catledge
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another issue is whether any dictionary would really help us answer this
question.  Even the least abridged ones do not last attested lexical items
formed by extremely productive processes. One from a recent New York Times
sports section, for example, is "Jordanless" (as in a description of a game
the Knicks lost to the Jordanless Bulls, i.e. the Chicago Bulls playing
without the retired Michael Jordan); another example that I use a lot in
class is "xeroxable"/"unxeroxable"/"unxeroxability", none of which will be
found listed (since they don't NEED to be), yet all of which are English
words.  Productive prefixes (ex-, anti-, pro-, re-) are another of unlisted
words (e.g. "to rexerox").  And that's not even getting into compounds.

Larry


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Nov 18 16:36:52 1999
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:36:52 -0500
Subject: RAT
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.113652.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Local Sunday newspaper, the _Sunday Patriot-News_, had an article in
which a RAT program was mentioned.  RAT = remote administration tool.
Led me to recall a conversation that I'd heard several years ago.

While driving my daughter and some of her friends to a movie, sometime
in the early 1990s, one of the girls mentioned something (to the other
girls) about a rat, as in:  "She (another girl) came to school without
her rat."  Some other questions and comments were made about the rat.
Later, I asked my daughter what-the-devil they were talking about.
Found out that in their language, rat = tampon, feminine hygiene
product.

Is the word 'rat' used elsewhere with a similar meaning (tampon)?  Don't
know if high school students in the Hershey area still use the term or
not.

If the word was discussed earlier, and is in the archives, no need to
send a "hey, dummy" message.  The word 'archive' will be sufficient to
initiate my 2nd search of the archives.  [I've looked in the archives,
but didn't find the above usage.]

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Thu Nov 18 16:52:21 1999
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:52:21 -0700
Subject: the verb gank
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.095221.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From: Becca Greenhill <LilacRaven at AOL.COM>


: I have never heard the verb "gank" used to describe the act of
: borrowing or stealing.  I have several friends in Northeastern KY and
: Southern WV who use the word "cabbage" in that way.  "Who cabbaged my
: lighter?"

Verbs i've heard around the BYU campus for the same concept (low-level
stealing) are "kife" and "bogart". I'ven't heard "gank" yet, but i'll keep
my ears open.

David Bowie                                       Department of English
Assistant Professor                            Brigham Young University
db.list at pmpkn.net              http://humanities.byu.edu/faculty/bowied
   The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer


From michael.gottlieb at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 18 17:12:25 1999
From: michael.gottlieb at YALE.EDU (Michael K. Gottlieb)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:12:25 -0500
Subject: the verb gank
In-Reply-To: <006501bf31e5$4cc34280$d123bb80@byu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.121225.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, David Bowie wrote:

> Verbs i've heard around the BYU campus for the same concept (low-level
> stealing) are "kife" and "bogart". I'ven't heard "gank" yet, but i'll keep
> my ears open.

I've heard "gank" and "gaffle" in Northern and Southern California.

Mike Gottlieb


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Nov 18 19:23:13 1999
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:23:13 -0800
Subject: Fwd: off the chain
In-Reply-To: <0.7b13a242.25657cc6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.112313.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Could it have anything to do with the chain as a unit of measurement not
originally related to football's 10 yards, but rather 66 feet? If so,
where has it been all these years?

Peter Richardson


From debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Thu Nov 18 19:20:32 1999
From: debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:20:32 -0600
Subject: FW: help
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.132032.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can someone point my friend in the right direction? Thanks.

__________________
Dennis Baron


-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Rotman [mailto:rotman at math.uiuc.edu]
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 12:47 PM
To: debaron at uiuc.edu
Subject: help


Dear Dennis,

I wonder if you can point me in a direction that will answer
an etymological question. Not the usual sort, because I'm interested
in the finding out where the mathematical usage of "variety"
comes from (it is a technical term widely used in algebraic
geometry). I've tried the OED, with no luck, and I'm not sure
where to go now. The term is at least 50 years old, if not 100,
and so it's not some recent neologism.

Any suggestions gratefully accepted.

Thanks,  Joe Rotman


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Thu Nov 18 20:10:10 1999
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:10:10 -0500
Subject: phonetic phumble
In-Reply-To: <383343FD.E981FE2@enterpe.com>
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.151010.0500.>

This HAS to be a joke!

Victoria

Victoria Neufeldt
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Mike Calvert
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 7:11 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: phonetic phumble
>
>
> For your amusement and edification, I pass on yet more evidence that the
> road to hell is paved with good intentions.
> Best,
> Michael Calvert-fella
> Press Enterprise
> Bloomsburg, PA
>
>
> MIAMI (AP) — Federal officials hoping to inform Haitian residents in the
> Creole language about subsidized housing have delivered a pamphlet
> written in an imitation Jamaican dialect.
>
> It’s a tough read:
>
> “Yuh as a rezedent, ave di rights ahn di rispansabilities to elp mek yuh
> HUD-asisted owzing ah behta owme fi yuh ahn yuh fambily,” the pamphlet
> states.
>
> What the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development was trying to
> say was: “You as a resident have the rights and the responsibilities to
> help make your HUD-assisted housing a better home for you and your
> family.”
>
> The pamphlet, titled “Rezedents Rights and Rispansabilities,” came to
> the attention of government officials after a citizen questioned its
> contents. It had been signed by HUD’s top executive, “Sekretary Andrew
> M. Cuomo fella.”
>
> The pamphlet was intended to inform residents in Section 8 HUD housing
> of their rights, responsibilities and the resources available from HUD.
> Translations were printed in nine languages and Braille.
>
> Haitian Creole, the national language of Haiti, is based on French,
> while Jamaicans read and write standard English. The presumed language
> of the HUD document is the spoken Jamaican dialect — translated
> phonetically.
>


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Nov 18 20:18:09 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:18:09 -0800
Subject: TIME OUT NY's Eating & Drinking
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.121809.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------Ric Burns's NEW YORK (briefly
> continued)
>
>     Wow, does this thing suck.
>     There's one more episode on Thursday (it's supposed to be the best
> one--NY in the 1920s) and then Ric Burns does the other 70 years in just two
> hours in the spring.  It's all too much, and he does it badly.
>     In episode four, half of it was devoted to the 146 people who died in the
> 1911 Triangle Shirtwaist factory fire.  You'd never know that 1021 people had
> died in 1904 in the General Slocum maritime tragedy.
>     You'd also never know that New York had a fire department,

Oh yes, it was talked about in the context of the Triangle factory fire.  The
narrator mentioned that they had the latest and greatest equipment, most recent
technology, maybe even that they were the best dept. in the country (I really
didn't pay that much attn).  Also noted was the fact that their ladders didn't
reach past the 6th floor, and that their nets broke so they couldn't handle the
jumpers.

Andrea


From LROSENWALD at WELLESLEY.EDU  Thu Nov 18 16:12:06 1999
From: LROSENWALD at WELLESLEY.EDU (Larry Rosenwald)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:12:06 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.111206.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Often, after I see a movie, I find myself talking with - or
arguing with - friends about how well or badly certain dialects are
performed - especially in cases where it's known that the actors in
question are not native speakers of the dialects.  E.g., in _The Insider_,
where British Michael Gambon and Canadian Colm Feore and Australian
Russell Crowe and British Christopher Plummer are all doing various
American accents (I know, I switched from dialect to accent - and accent
is the key term here).  The thing is, though, I'm often pretty uncertain
about the judgments being made - my own, but other viewers' also.  I
mean, what are they based on?
        So I had this fantasy that some ADS group would devise an accent
rating system for film - four stars for Christopher Plummer, two and a
half for Colm Feore, one and a half for Michael Gambon, whatever.  Anyone
interested?
        I'm putting this comically, but I actually think there are important
matters lurking here.
        Best, Larry Rosenwald


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 18 23:32:39 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:32:39 EST
Subject: Query: How Many English Words?
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.183239.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Even though the answer is problematic, the question is not trivial. it has
practical application in dictionary making and importance for linguistic
theory, psychology, educational psychology, etc.

We can give useful answers by being specific. The OED 2nd edition, for
example, has 290,500 entries and a total of 616, 500 word forms (Donna Lee
Berg: A User's Guide to the OED, 1991). Knowing the kind of entries OED has,
we can adjust the number up or down: if we want to count a word only once
even if it's several different parts of speech, for example, we reduce the
number.

It's also of interest how many words are in the active or passive
vocabularies of individuals; how many different words were used by
Shakespeare; etc. I don't have that information at my fingertips but I think
it's available.

- Allan Metcalf


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Thu Nov 18 21:40:24 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:40:24 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.164024.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Thursday, November 18, 1999, Larry Rosenwald <LROSENWALD at WELLESLEY.EDU> wrote:

>        So I had this fantasy that some ADS group would devise an accent
>rating system for film - four stars for Christopher Plummer, two and a
>half for Colm Feore, one and a half for Michael Gambon, whatever.  Anyone
>interested?


I'm in. We could set up a page on the site with no problem, maybe a little polling
station for members or something simple, with room for comments.

Sounds interesting, vital and a way to make accessible discussion of the kinds of
discrepancies we often talk about here.


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Thu Nov 18 23:52:16 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:52:16 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.185216.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Very interesting!  Where did you get your percentages on r-lessness, and
have you published anything on your 40-year analysis?

At 04:51 PM 11/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Anthony Hopkins only gets half a star for his accent as Nixon.
>
>Of the American films I've studied (1930's to 70's) that have overtly
>specified regional origins for a character, I found only three (US) actors
>that made any kind of attempt to sound like that was where they were from.
>
>Of the Brits in American roles, Angela Lansbury is extremely successful --
>of course she came to NY to study acting at the age of 15. Stephen Boyd
>(Fantastic Voyage) gets 4 stars; I only heard a couple of Belfast vowels
>from him. Ray Milland (The Lost Weekend ) didn't sound Welsh in the
>1940's; the only remarkable thing I found about his speech was that he was
>98% r-less, compared to an average of 42% for male American actors of that
>decade.
>
>And then there's Cary Grant...
>
>Nancy Elliott


From elliottn at INDIANA.EDU  Thu Nov 18 21:51:20 1999
From: elliottn at INDIANA.EDU (Nancy Carol Elliott)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:51:20 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <01JIHBC152ZM8WZZ3X@WELLESLEY.EDU>
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.165120.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Anthony Hopkins only gets half a star for his accent as Nixon.

Of the American films I've studied (1930's to 70's) that have overtly
specified regional origins for a character, I found only three (US) actors
that made any kind of attempt to sound like that was where they were from.

Of the Brits in American roles, Angela Lansbury is extremely successful --
of course she came to NY to study acting at the age of 15. Stephen Boyd
(Fantastic Voyage) gets 4 stars; I only heard a couple of Belfast vowels
from him. Ray Milland (The Lost Weekend ) didn't sound Welsh in the
1940's; the only remarkable thing I found about his speech was that he was
98% r-less, compared to an average of 42% for male American actors of that
decade.

And then there's Cary Grant...

Nancy Elliott


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 19 06:42:19 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 01:42:19 EST
Subject: Pocho, Tourismo
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.014219.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

POCHO

    From the OED:

_pocho_ (Mexican Sp. Sp. _pocho_ discoloured, faded, pale.)  A citizen of the
United States of Mexican origin; a culturally Americanized Mexican.  Also
_attrib._ or as _adj._
1944 _Newsweek_ 14 Aug. 76/3  A pocho in good standing will drag his fititoes
(feet) up the estrita (street).

    I've been going through some materials on Mexico.

SATURDAY REVIEW, 15 September 1951, pg. 61, col. 1:
_Mexican-American Slang_
   (...)  This slang is called _pochismo_ which itself is derived from the
word _pocho_, the colloquial Mexican term for a Mexican-American.  It is, in
fact, spoken not only by thousands of Mexican immigrants in the United
States, but as well by Mexicans living below the Rio Grande.  All along the
border, on the American and Mexican side, and as deep into the USA as Saint
Paul and Detroit, the words the _pochos_ have coined are of current use.
Some words belong to the everday speech of Monterrey and Tiajuana, while
others, carried by "wetbacks," have reached Mexico City.  Undoubtedly, Ciudad
Juarez may well be called the capital of "Pochilandia," unless, of course,
San Antonio (Tex.) claims this linguistic privilege.
     The word _pocho_ became of current use about fifteen years ago with the
publication of Jose Vasconcelos's autobiography "Ulyses Criollo."  To
describe an individual as _pocho_ is a mixture of affection and insult.  The
word was needed and stayed.  Better than any other it describes the hybrid
mixture of U.S. attitudes in the Mexican mind.
     Not a single _pochismo_ has added to the beauty of our Spanish language;
on the contrary the new words are ugly, hard to listen to, and difficult to
read. (...)

MEXICO REVISITED (1955), by Erna Fergusson
Pg. 20  The border speech is _pochismo_, a hybrid of Spanish and English,
named from _pocho_, a slang word for the Mexican-American.  Jose (Pg.
21--ed.) Vasconcelos first used these words in print in his autobiography,
_Ulises Criollo_.  Scholars hate _pochismo_; they say it has added no beauty
to the language.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TOURISMO

    We have:

1953 Aztec two-step
1961 Montezuma's revenge
1962 Mexican two-step

     I couldn't find much.

TRAVEL magazine, May 1953, pg. 15, cols. 1-2:  Old expatriots, however, told
me that they have seen Electropura bottles filled from ordinary taps.  Thus,
the average tourist falls victim to the _"tourismo"_ sometime during his stay
the _"Toursimo"_ being caused by a mild amoeba of moot classification but
distressing dysenteric effect.

TRAVEL magazine, July 1953, pg. 41, col. 1:  Climate, sanitation methods and
food preparation in "manana-land" necessitate alterations in the American's
ordinary customs.  If such precautions aren't taken, the unwary eater and
drinker may easily fall victim to a common ailment known to menu-wise
Mexicans as _Turismo_.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MISC.

    Over a year ago, I suggested adding "Dialect Oscars" to our
"Word-of-the-Year" awards.  It's free press for the ADS in all those
entertainment sections--we'd get new members.  No one was interested.
     Those _Time Out New York_ drinks are definitely _served_ at those bars,
which may-or-may-not have invented the drinks....Passion Fruit Batida
Brasileira was read incorrectly (as "Bolido").
     This NEW YORK documentary is over!  I'm free!
     The final episode was the same as the others.  "There had never been
anyone quite like Al Smith"--all the bad prose was back!  The extended focus
was on the stock market crash and the Empire State Building (and what F.
Scott Fitzgerald thought about them), leaving out the George Washington
Bridge, the Holland Tunnel, the New York Yankees, Jack Dempsey, horseracing,
vaudeville, Jimmy Walker, Fiorello LaGuardia, the 21 Club, Jimmy Durante,
Legs Diamond, Texas Guinan, the New York Graphic, the Daily News...
     I had meant to say that documentary ignored the fire department _until
the 1911 fire_ (when we finally learn there was an NYFD!).  As David Shulman
pointed out in American Speech, it was the great 19th century character of
Mose the fireman that helped to popularize the New York dialect
("Brooklynese").  It was from a fire company that William Tweed (and
cartoonist Thomas Nast) created the Tammany tiger.
    Here are some reviews of a program/book that never once mentions the Big
Apple:

ALBANY TIMES UNION:  Burns unreels the Big Apple.
CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR:  The Big Apple of Ric Burns's eye.
SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE:  Really Big Documentary on Big Apple.
COMMONWEAL:  ...the new program zeroes in on the Big Apple...
USA TODAY:  ...a lot of Big Apple to swallow.
CHICAGO TRIBUNE:  Even Chicagoans who have a bias against the Big Apple
should come away impressed...
HOUSTON CHRONICLE:  Ric Burns' television history is bigger than the Big
Apple.
PEOPLE WEEKLY:  The Big Apple's all here, and it's awesome.


From fodde at UNICA.IT  Fri Nov 19 08:32:10 1999
From: fodde at UNICA.IT (Luisanna Fodde)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:32:10 +0100
Subject: English Dialects
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.093210.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'd like to have some information on English dialects in the UK. What is the
most relevant bibliography?
Thanks
Luisanna Fodde
University of Cagliari
Italy
fodde at unica.it


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Fri Nov 19 12:00:15 1999
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron Drews)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:00:15 +0000
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <01JIHBC152ZM8WZZ3X@WELLESLEY.EDU>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.120015.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Larry Rosenwald wrote:
}        So I had this fantasy that some ADS group would devise an accent
}rating system for film - four stars for Christopher Plummer, two and a
}half for Colm Feore, one and a half for Michael Gambon, whatever.  Anyone
}interested?
}        I'm putting this comically, but I actually think there are important
}matters lurking here.

Sounds like fun.

How would one classify caricatures as opposed to imitation/attempts?  The
reason I ask is because there's an Irish actor (don't know his name,
played in _First Knight_ with Connery and Greere)  who plays an American
in a BBC mini-series about a photograph collection.  He has most of the
phonology down pat (being rhotic helps a lot), and he convinced most of
the people I know here.  But, to me, it sounds like he learned his
American from the "Charlie Sheen, Navy Seal School of English".  I found
it to be a not-quite-on-target caricature because of that.

Speaking of Charlie Sheen, I'd give Cary Elywes three and a half stars
for his various American roles (Hot Shots, Twister, the other army one
with Kelsy Grammer)

I'd give Gweneth Paltrow at least fours stars for _Shakespeare in Love_
(I've heard "she's American???!!!???" countless times).

Mel Gibson, two stars for William Wallace.

And Kevin Costner.... nil

--Aaron



 =======================================================================
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                  Departments of English Language and
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron       Theoretical & Applied  Linguistics

"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From elliottn at INDIANA.EDU  Fri Nov 19 14:41:47 1999
From: elliottn at INDIANA.EDU (Nancy Carol Elliott)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:41:47 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991118185211.00b99100@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.094147.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm just finishing my dissertation on the subject of rhoticity in American
film speech from the 30's to the 70's. I collected data on about 50
subjects per decade (4-year period in a decade's midpoint) and got a
decade average from each subject's percentage of r-lessness. The decade
average decreases steadily from the 30's to the 70's (59 -> 43 -> 33 -> 22
-> 7), with interesting differences between female and male subjects.

(Correction: Ray Milland's r-less rate is 92, not 98. And John Wayne's,
incidentally, is 4.)

Nancy Elliott

On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> Very interesting!  Where did you get your percentages on r-lessness, and
> have you published anything on your 40-year analysis?
>
> At 04:51 PM 11/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >Anthony Hopkins only gets half a star for his accent as Nixon.
> >
> >Of the American films I've studied (1930's to 70's) that have overtly
> >specified regional origins for a character, I found only three (US) actors
> >that made any kind of attempt to sound like that was where they were from.
> >
> >Of the Brits in American roles, Angela Lansbury is extremely successful --
> >of course she came to NY to study acting at the age of 15. Stephen Boyd
> >(Fantastic Voyage) gets 4 stars; I only heard a couple of Belfast vowels
> >from him. Ray Milland (The Lost Weekend ) didn't sound Welsh in the
> >1940's; the only remarkable thing I found about his speech was that he was
> >98% r-less, compared to an average of 42% for male American actors of that
> >decade.
> >
> >And then there's Cary Grant...
> >
> >Nancy Elliott
>


From LROSENWALD at WELLESLEY.EDU  Fri Nov 19 14:56:06 1999
From: LROSENWALD at WELLESLEY.EDU (Larry Rosenwald)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:56:06 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.095606.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        So this dissertation of yours sounds fascinating, Nancy!  Do you
talk about more general aspects of American film speech, too?  And how (and
when ) could one get a copy?  Best, Larry Rosenwald


From coady at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 19 16:15:39 1999
From: coady at OHIOU.EDU (James Coady)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:15:39 -0500
Subject: How Many Words
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.111539.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


The following is excerpted from chapter 14 in Second Language Vocabulary
Acquisition, 1997, edited
by J. Coady and T. Huckin  Cambridge U. Press.

Lexicon Size Research

                 There is also a significant disagreement in the literature
over the total amount of vocabulary known by a university educated native
speaker, i.e. the target of English for academic purposes.  These arguments
are important because they tend to be a major determinant of a given
teacher's philosophy about vocabulary instruction.  For example, if one
believes that educated university native speakers tend to know 50,000 to
100,000 words, then it is seems useless to try to teach a tiny subset of
that amount.  On the other hand, if one believes that university students
tend to know about 16,000 base words, then teaching a thousand or so words
does not seem like such a bad idea.

                 For example, Nagy et Anderson (1984) estimated that there
are 85,533 word families in printed school English (grades 3-9).  They
counted as one word family semantically and morphologically related words
such as enthusiast, enthusiasts, and enthusiasm.

                 In contrast, Goulden, Nation, & Read (1990) estimate that
an average native speaker English speaking university student has a
vocabulary of 17,000 word families (a base-form and its derived forms)

                 D'Anna, Zechmeister, & Hall (1991) based their study upon
the Oxford American Dictionary (OAD) from which they eliminated proper
names, archaic words, technical terms, etc. in order to form a corpus of
what they call functionally important words.  They then asked their
subjects to choose from a five-point scale how well they felt they knew a
sample of almost 200 words from the OAD.  They then extrapolated from these
results and concluded that the average number of different words known by a
university student is 16,785.  Some further issues were explored in two
follow-up studies, Zechmeister, D'Anna, Hall, Hall, & Smith (1993) and
Zechmeister, Chronis, Cull, D'Anna, & Healy (1995).  For example, in the
latter study the subjects were given multiple choice tests to determine how
accurate their self-rating was.  They found that subjects typically
overestimated their knowledge, particularly when there were difficult
distracters.  Moreover, they again extrapolated from their data that junior
high students knew fewer words (9,684) than freshmen college students (16,
679) than older adults (21,252).

                 Meara (chapter 2, this volume) discusses how difficult it
is to carry out effective research on measuring the size of the lexicon and
proposes the use of some standardized vocabulary tests which he has
developed.  They are simple to administer and remarkably sensitive to
knowledge across a range of different frequency bands or a range of
different specialist areas of lexis.  Further he argues that as the lexicon
grows, organization becomes a more significant factor than size.  He
therefore proposes a standardized measure of the relative organization of
the lexicon.  Finally, he feels that both measures together can be a method
of assessing overall lexical competence.



Graduate Chair          Phone:  (740) 593-4566
Department of Linguistics       Fax:  (740) 593-2967
Ohio University
<http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/coady.htm>http<http://www.cats.o
hiou.edu/linguistics/dept/coady.htm>://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/c
oady.htm
Athens, OH  45701               E-mail: coady at ohiou.edu
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From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Fri Nov 19 16:36:43 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:36:43 -0800
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.083643.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Aaron Drews <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK> wrote:

> And Kevin Costner.... nil
>
> --Aaron

Aaron,

Just what kind of an accent would the "real" Robin
Hood have had?  Certainly not that of Errol Flynn or
Cary "I have an English accent" Elwes!  I suspect
Kevin sounded as close to authentic as any other
actor!

JIM





__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Fri Nov 19 15:39:32 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 10:39:32 -0500
Subject: How Many Words
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.103932.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Where/when, incidentally, did the term "word families" arise?

Lynne Murphy
Baylor University
----------
From: James Coady <coady at OHIOU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: How Many Words
Date: Fri, Nov 19, 1999, 11:15 AM


The following is excerpted from chapter 14 in Second Language Vocabulary
Acquisition, 1997, edited by J. Coady and T. Huckin  Cambridge U. Press.

Lexicon Size Research

                There is also a significant disagreement in the literature
over the total amount of vocabulary known by a university educated native
speaker, i.e. the target of English for academic purposes.  These arguments
are important because they tend to be a major determinant of a given
teacher’s philosophy about vocabulary instruction.  For example, if one
believes that educated university native speakers tend to know 50,000 to
100,000 words, then it is seems useless to try to teach a tiny subset of
that amount.  On the other hand, if one believes that university students
tend to know about 16,000 base words, then teaching a thousand or so words
does not seem like such a bad idea.

                For example, Nagy et Anderson (1984) estimated that there
are 85,533 word families in printed school English (grades 3-9).  They
counted as one word family semantically and morphologically related words
such as enthusiast, enthusiasts, and enthusiasm.

                In contrast, Goulden, Nation, & Read (1990) estimate that an
average native speaker English speaking university student has a vocabulary
of 17,000 word families (a base-form and its derived forms)

                D’Anna, Zechmeister, & Hall (1991) based their study upon
the Oxford American Dictionary (OAD) from which they eliminated proper
names, archaic words, technical terms, etc. in order to form a corpus of
what they call functionally important words.  They then asked their subjects
to choose from a five-point scale how well they felt they knew a sample of
almost 200 words from the OAD.  They then extrapolated from these results
and concluded that the average number of different words known by a
university student is 16,785.  Some further issues were explored in two
follow-up studies, Zechmeister, D’Anna, Hall, Hall, & Smith (1993) and
Zechmeister, Chronis, Cull, D’Anna, & Healy (1995).  For example, in the
latter study the subjects were given multiple choice tests to determine how
accurate their self-rating was.  They found that subjects typically
overestimated their knowledge, particularly when there were difficult
distracters. Moreover, they again extrapolated from their data that junior
high students knew fewer words (9,684) than freshmen college students (16,
679) than older adults (21,252).

                Meara (chapter 2, this volume) discusses how difficult it is
to carry out effective research on measuring the size of the lexicon and
proposes the use of some standardized vocabulary tests which he has
developed. They are simple to administer and remarkably sensitive to
knowledge across a range of different frequency bands or a range of
different specialist areas of lexis.  Further he argues that as the lexicon
grows, organization becomes a more significant factor than size.  He
therefore proposes a standardized measure of the relative organization of
the lexicon.  Finally, he feels that both measures together can be a method
of assessing overall lexical competence.



Graduate Chair          Phone: (740) 593-4566
Department of Linguistics       Fax: (740) 593-2967
Ohio University http <http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/coady.htm>
://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/coady.htm
<http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/coady.htm>
Athens, OH 45701               E-mail: coady at ohiou.edu
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From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Fri Nov 19 17:14:00 1999
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron Drews)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:14:00 +0000
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <19991119163643.22550.rocketmail@web1303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.171400.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 19 Nov 1999, James Smith wrote:

}--- Aaron Drews <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK> wrote:
}
}> And Kevin Costner.... nil
}>
}> --Aaron
}
}Aaron,
}
}Just what kind of an accent would the "real" Robin
}Hood have had?  Certainly not that of Errol Flynn or
}Cary "I have an English accent" Elwes!  I suspect
}Kevin sounded as close to authentic as any other
}actor!
}
}JIM

I would expect the real Earl of Sherwood would have had some sort of
Mercian dialect of early Middle English.  So, yes, Costner would have
sounded as authentic as anybody else nowadays.  I have to admit, I'd love
to see a production of Robin Hood in any dialect of Middle English.  And,
of course, the _real_ story of Robin Hood, too.

But, don't blame me for Hollywood's thinking that anything that takes
place in England (Robin Hood, King Arthur, Shakespeare) must be spoken in
a mainstream (ie, RP, Estuary, Cockney, etc) accent rather than early
Middle English, ancient Welsh or early Modern English.  It's by that
definition I was judging Costner (et al).

--Aaron



 =======================================================================
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                  Departments of English Language and
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron       Theoretical & Applied  Linguistics

"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 19 18:54:35 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:54:35 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.135435.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I gather you looked not only at "outsiders" playing Americans (and vice
versa?) but also at Americans representing Americans.  Apparently you
correlated degree of r-lessness with both the region/locale of the film
plot and the  regional origin of the character in question?  Did you also
consider social class, education, and age?  (You considered gender, as you
note.)  The steady decline from 1930 to 1970 would go along with Labov's
findings on post-WWII New York (for some classes); but what about Boston or
Deep South settings?  Ray Milland could play a prototypical middle-class
New Yorker of our parents' or grandparents' generation; Kevin Spacey of
"Midnight in..." represents a younger but upper class Southerner
(post-'70s, of course).  And John Wayne's 4% r-lessness would be reasonable
in light of Hartman's (19??) suggestion of semi-r-lessness in the Southwest
(Wayne's cowboy country).  Only 3 American "authentics" (my term) seems low
to me.  But I'm assuming you looked at all these sociolinguistic
factors!  Where did you do the dissertation?

At 09:41 AM 11/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm just finishing my dissertation on the subject of rhoticity in American
>film speech from the 30's to the 70's. I collected data on about 50
>subjects per decade (4-year period in a decade's midpoint) and got a
>decade average from each subject's percentage of r-lessness. The decade
>average decreases steadily from the 30's to the 70's (59 -> 43 -> 33 -> 22
>-> 7), with interesting differences between female and male subjects.
>
>(Correction: Ray Milland's r-less rate is 92, not 98. And John Wayne's,
>incidentally, is 4.)
>
>Nancy Elliott
>
>On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
> > Very interesting!  Where did you get your percentages on r-lessness, and
> > have you published anything on your 40-year analysis?
> >
> > At 04:51 PM 11/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Anthony Hopkins only gets half a star for his accent as Nixon.
> > >
> > >Of the American films I've studied (1930's to 70's) that have overtly
> > >specified regional origins for a character, I found only three (US) actors
> > >that made any kind of attempt to sound like that was where they were from.
> > >
> > >Of the Brits in American roles, Angela Lansbury is extremely successful --
> > >of course she came to NY to study acting at the age of 15. Stephen Boyd
> > >(Fantastic Voyage) gets 4 stars; I only heard a couple of Belfast vowels
> > >from him. Ray Milland (The Lost Weekend ) didn't sound Welsh in the
> > >1940's; the only remarkable thing I found about his speech was that he was
> > >98% r-less, compared to an average of 42% for male American actors of that
> > >decade.
> > >
> > >And then there's Cary Grant...
> > >
> > >Nancy Elliott
> >


From sllauns at CWIS.ISU.EDU  Fri Nov 19 19:53:19 1999
From: sllauns at CWIS.ISU.EDU (Sonja L Launspach)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:53:19 -0700
Subject: dialects and composition
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.125319.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of my students is doing research on dialect features that show up in
student writing. She hasn't been able to find anything recent on this
topic. She is looking for information on:
1. which dialect features tend to show up in students' writing
2. What specific strategies people have come up with to help students
"bridge" to SWE (standard written English)
3. Who the current experts are in this field.

She'd appreciate any help. Please email your responses to her at
kurtpatt at isu.edu

Thanks
Sonja

_______________________________________________________________________
Sonja Launspach
Assistant Professor Linguistics
Dept.of English & Philosophy
Idaho State University
Pocatello, ID 83209
208-236-2478
fax:208-236-4472
email: sllauns at isu.edu


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 19 21:16:27 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:16:27 EST
Subject: How Many Words
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.161627.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Andrea Vine posted a contribution on this topic to this list on March 24,
1999. - Allan Metcalf


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov 19 21:16:56 1999
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:16:56 -0500
Subject: the verb gank
In-Reply-To: <0.f1f36b1f.2564cded@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.161656.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Becca Greenhill writes:  I have never heard the verb "gank" used to
describe the act of borrowing or stealing.  I have several friends in
Northeastern KY and Southern WV who use the word "cabbage" in that
way.  "Who cabbaged my lighter?"

"Cabbage" = "Steal" is quite an old word.  I had noted a source from
1841, and was chagined to see that RHHDAS listed it from 1806.  As I
recall, it originally was used by tailors to refer to stealing pieces
of cloth.  This was the sense of my 1841 source.

GAT


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 19 21:46:25 1999
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:46:25 -0500
Subject: How Many Words
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.164625.0500.>

great excerpt, Jim!  thanks!

-- db
___________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl            Ohio University /Athens       tel: (740) 593-2783
home page: http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl    fax: (740) 593-2818


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 19 23:21:59 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:21:59 EST
Subject: Peep show; Pokemon; Pitza; Trillion; Alphabet stock
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.182159.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PEEP SHOW

"This ain't no peep show."
--ad in today's New York City newspapers for the new LOEWS 42nd St. E Walk's
13 screens.

     OED has "peep show" from 1851.
     The Literature Online database has John Hamilton Reynolds, THE PRESS
(1822):

Whilst Brewster each one's optic nerves delights
By his famed peep-show and its varying sights.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
POKEMON

     The movie is out.  Pokemon is hot, hot, hot.
     Pokemon words have included Pokemania, Pokevesting, Pokelimia (NY
Observer, Nov. 22)...
     The words will probably last as short as the craze.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PITZA (A "HYBREAD")

     From the New York Daily News, "The Top 40" restaurants, 19 November
1999, pg. 78, col. 1:

Under $10
(...) 2. Zaytoons
Pitza is a "hybread" of pita and pizza.  The definitive combo is the
lahambajin, comprising ground lamb, onion, tomato and spices.  There's also a
Middle Eastern version (lamb, merguez, parsley).  Or you can stick with the
Italian (tomato sauce, mozzarella, garlic).  283 Smith St., at Sackett St.,
Brooklyn, (718) 875-1880.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TRILLION

     From Sports Illustrated, 22 November 1999, pg. 66, col. 2:

_. Avoid the dread "trillion."_  In other words, if for some reason you can't
get off a shot, do _something_!  In garbage-time lingo, _trillion_ is the
line  in the box score a player gets when his minutes-played stat is followed
by zeros in the nine other categories.  "A trillion means you played, but you
didn't do anything," says Vancouver Grizzlies assistant Lionel Hollins, who
was an NBA guard for 10 seasons.  "No shots attempted or made, no assists, no
rebounds, no fouls, nothing."  If he still has a trillion in the final
seconds, the experienced garbage-time player will commit misdemeanor assault
to break up his zeros with a "1" in the personal foul column.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
ALPHABET STOCK

     From the New York Law Journal, 18 November 1999, pg. 1, col. 1:

_The ABCs of Tracking Stock_
     The use of "alphabet" or "tracking" stock provides an interesting and
innovative corporate financing technique.  The theory behind the vehicle is
that several objectives can be achieved by separately identifying businesses
within a corporation and tracking their financial performance independently.
     The purpose of this article is to briefly examine the history of
alphabet stock, consider the advantages and disadvantages of such a security
and provide some guidance on the issues that arise in drafting such an
instrument.
     The first transaction to achieve national recognition and, perhaps, coin
the term "alphabet stock" was General Motors purchase of Ross Perot's EDS in
1984.

     I gotta check "alphabet stock" on my mini-Nexis.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Nov 19 23:53:29 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 15:53:29 -0800
Subject: Alphabet stock, turistas
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.155329.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>      The first transaction to achieve national recognition and, perhaps, coin
> the term "alphabet stock" was General Motors purchase of Ross Perot's EDS in
> 1984.

I used to own that stock - GM Class E.

In another email Barry listed "turismo" for the intestinal problem foreigners
get when in Mexico.  In Texas, we always knew it as "turistas" (not sure of the
spelling).

Andrea


From sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU  Sat Nov 20 00:07:17 1999
From: sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. Roly Sussex)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 10:07:17 +1000
Subject: oofle dust
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.100717.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is the phrase "oofle dust" or perhaps "uffle dust" used in the US?
There are 4 hits on the Web for oofle dust, and a listener to
Aust. radio reports "uffle dust" from Canada. It seems to be a magic
substance which you sprinkle around to make things happen. I can't
find any references.
Thanks
Roly Sussex
The University of Queensland


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Sat Nov 20 00:17:21 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:17:21 -0800
Subject: oofle dust
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.161721.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Prof. Roly Sussex" wrote:
>
> Is the phrase "oofle dust" or perhaps "uffle dust" used in the US?
> There are 4 hits on the Web for oofle dust, and a listener to
> Aust. radio reports "uffle dust" from Canada. It seems to be a magic
> substance which you sprinkle around to make things happen. I can't
> find any references.

Fairy dust.  Often we just wave a magic wand over things. (Magic wand. Good
device. Will use more later.)

Andrea


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Sat Nov 20 02:33:33 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:33:33 -0800
Subject: ear candy
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.183333.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

All,
While I know we've discussed the "candy" phrases before, I don't remember the
print origin of ear candy as being that described on the Merriam-Webster site
today (http://www.m-w.com):


                     "Ear candy" made its debut (in print, at least) as the
title of
                     a 1977 album by pop singer Helen Reddy. The album has
                     long since faded from the charts, but the term endures and
                     it is now used widely enough to have gained entry into
                     abridged dictionaries. Although "ear candy" is sometimes
                     used critically to describe tunes that are considered
                     "gooey," "sweet," or "saccharine," the people who make the
                     music and their fans find it tasty. As one 90s band member
                     sagely put it, does it really matter if ear candy "isn't
about
                     the secret of life"?

"I am Woman; ear me roar."
-- elen Reddy

Andrea Vine
Sun-Netscape Alliance i18n architect
avine at eng.sun.com
I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{  Of course, I _am_ an architect.


From bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU  Sat Nov 20 02:49:46 1999
From: bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU (BRITTANY M. BARBER)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 20:49:46 CST
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.991119114328.8675F-100000@pisa.ling.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.204946.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm game.


From bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU  Sat Nov 20 02:54:49 1999
From: bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU (BRITTANY M. BARBER)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 20:54:49 CST
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.991119165727.15124A-100000@pisa.ling.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.205449.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You know what accent I'd like to see promoted before it shrivels
up and dies, and every American talks like they're from the midwest?
The old timey antebellum south mouth.  Do you predict it fading long
gone within the next decade or so?


From bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU  Sat Nov 20 02:57:42 1999
From: bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU (BRITTANY M. BARBER)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 20:57:42 CST
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.991119165727.15124A-100000@pisa.ling.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.205742.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just wanted to recommend another splen-did book.  Randy Harris' _The
Linguistic Wars_.  If you've already read it through, I'm interested
in your take on it all.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Nov 20 14:30:08 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 09:30:08 -0500
Subject: oofle dust
In-Reply-To: <199911200007.KAA24568@lingua.arts.uq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.093008.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Roly,

I grew up with foo-foo dust (same meaning) in the South Midlands US. See
DARE (Vol II) for a West African foofoo (dough) which came to the US and
one Illinois citation for foo-foo dust meaning "dust bunny" (little balls
of dust which collect under furniture). I'm surprised DARE doesn't have
foo-foo dust for "magic powder."

dInIs (whose daddy always sprinkled a little foo-foo dust around in reponse
to unresonable requests)

At 7:07 PM -0500 11/19/99, Prof. Roly Sussex wrote:
>Is the phrase "oofle dust" or perhaps "uffle dust" used in the US?
>There are 4 hits on the Web for oofle dust, and a listener to
>Aust. radio reports "uffle dust" from Canada. It seems to be a magic
>substance which you sprinkle around to make things happen. I can't
>find any references.
>Thanks
>Roly Sussex
>The University of Queensland


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Nov 20 14:36:26 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 09:36:26 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <B50F803EEA@delta.obu.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.093626.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Brittany,

First, you ain;t got nothing to worry about; of course it is not fading
(except in carpetbagger domains like Atlanta).

Second, why "antebellum"? Most of the evidence we have is that what we
think of as today's "Southern Accent" (with a few exceptions, r-lessness,
possibly /aI/ monophthongization) is a fairly recent phenomenon (and I
apologize for that old-fashioned singular; I know it has become
"phenomena"). In short (and I know this will horrify many daugheers and
sons of the South), most of the Civil War Confederates whom you love to
hear in the movies would have sounded a good deal more like what you call
"midwesterners" than any self-respecting southerner of today.

Course, it's hard to be self-respecting which a bunch of fools from the
north are always laughing at the way you talk.

dInIs



At 9:54 PM -0500 11/19/99, BRITTANY M. BARBER wrote:
>You know what accent I'd like to see promoted before it shrivels
>up and dies, and every American talks like they're from the midwest?
>The old timey antebellum south mouth.  Do you predict it fading long
>gone within the next decade or so?


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Sat Nov 20 14:54:32 1999
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 09:54:32 -0500
Subject: oofle dust
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.095432.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Foo foo dust usage, which may be similar to that of dInIs at:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gamble/interviews/grey.html

http://www-douzzer.ai.mit.edu:8080/conspiracy/china.html

Reference to a drug at:
http://www.pinehurst.net/~apd/drug/a-z/terms/alpha_f.html

An after-bath powder at:
http://gamgee.acad.emich.edu/~tomlewis/LYRICS/showers.html

Overpriced electrical accessories at:
http://www.avahifi.com/faq1.htm

Snake oil at:
http://www.humic.com/humatehist1.html

A vaccine (vitamin X) for mastitis at:
http://dps.ufl.edu/Pub/1298_D.HTM

Used in the title of an agricultural pub at:
http://www.ker.com/respub.html

Seems that there is foo foo dust everywhere that you look, and in a few
places where you might not look.

George S. Cole  gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Sat Nov 20 15:56:13 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 10:56:13 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.105613.0500.>

Dennis, could you recommend an article or book that would further explain
this phenomenon?  It sounds very interesting to this son of the south; I
thought that the accent went back to before the War Against Northern
Aggression, but I'm no linguist, just an interested dilettante.

Many thanks.

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:

> Brittany,
>
> First, you ain;t got nothing to worry about; of course it is not fading
> (except in carpetbagger domains like Atlanta).
>
> Second, why "antebellum"? Most of the evidence we have is that what we
> think of as today's "Southern Accent" (with a few exceptions, r-lessness,
> possibly /aI/ monophthongization) is a fairly recent phenomenon (and I
> apologize for that old-fashioned singular; I know it has become
> "phenomena"). In short (and I know this will horrify many daugheers and
> sons of the South), most of the Civil War Confederates whom you love to
> hear in the movies would have sounded a good deal more like what you call
> "midwesterners" than any self-respecting southerner of today.
>
> Course, it's hard to be self-respecting which a bunch of fools from the
> north are always laughing at the way you talk.

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                      "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From johnsoe1 at PACBELL.NET  Sat Nov 20 18:40:48 1999
From: johnsoe1 at PACBELL.NET (Elizabeth Johnson)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 10:40:48 -0800
Subject: oofle dust
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.104048.0800.>

Is that where "Little Bunny Foo-Foo" came from?

Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
> Roly,
>
> I grew up with foo-foo dust (same meaning) in the South Midlands US. See
> DARE (Vol II) for a West African foofoo (dough) which came to the US and
> one Illinois citation for foo-foo dust meaning "dust bunny" (little balls
> of dust which collect under furniture). I'm surprised DARE doesn't have
> foo-foo dust for "magic powder."


From b-jlewis at ECENTRAL.COM  Sat Nov 20 21:36:38 1999
From: b-jlewis at ECENTRAL.COM (Bret Lewis)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 13:36:38 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.133638.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Subscribe B-Jlewis at ecentral.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Sat Nov 20 21:25:11 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 16:25:11 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.162511.0500.>

Dennis,

I suppose I am a lay person, since my specialty is not linguistics, but rather
renaissance and restoration drama with a minor in comp/rhetoric.  I do,
however, follow the proceedings on the list with a fair amount of excitement
and enthusiasm and am a little disappointed by your answer that seems to say
that your work is too complex for us to handle.

At the same time, I realize that theoretically-heavy material--by its very
nature--is too difficult to reduce to a one-page precis, but could you give us
some brief idea of what you base this revisionist (that's a loaded word, I
know, but I simply mean that you're proposing a rather new look at something
that's fairly entrenched) conceptualization of the antebellum southern accent?
If not, is there someone else out there that can inform the list of this
phenomenon?

I also realize that many members of the list might be facing a couple--if not
more--stacks of papers to grade before the final holiday rush, but this topic
seems to be a very good opportunity to explore linguistics and accent beyond
many of our typical (but fun, and let's not stop them) discussions of "pop" vs.
"soda."

Thanks for the time.

Bob, not Brittany

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:

> Brittany,
>
> I'd like to, but this is fairly recent (and unfortunately very technically
> embedded stuff, in acoustic phonetics, I'm afraid), and there is no single
> source. It's our fault for not publishing more stuff that is comprehensible
> to interested lay-persons.
>
> Best,
>
> dInIs
>
> >Dennis, could you recommend an article or book that would further explain
> >this phenomenon?  It sounds very interesting to this son of the south; I
> >thought that the accent went back to before the War Against Northern
> >Aggression, but I'm no linguist, just an interested dilettante.
> >
> >Many thanks.
> >
> >Bob Haas
> >Department of English
> >High Point University
> >University of North Carolina at Greensboro
> >
> >                      "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"
>
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                       "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Sat Nov 20 21:37:51 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 15:37:51 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.153751.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is a fascinating listserv; however, I will need to shift my viewing
to the digest format.   I cannot locate the original message with the
digest address; therefore, I beg your indulgence.  Scott Catledge


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Nov 20 22:32:28 1999
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 16:32:28 -0600
Subject: "The more things change,..."
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.163228.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  Today I was  asked  who originated the expression "The more things
change, the more they remain the same."

     Would someone know the answer?  (is the French version perhaps the
original one?)

----Gerald Cohen





gcohen at umr.edu


From bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU  Sun Nov 21 01:28:58 1999
From: bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU (BRITTANY M. BARBER)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 19:28:58 CST
Subject: corpus v. grammar v. intuition
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.991119165727.15124A-100000@pisa.ling.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.192858.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here is another thing I've been wanting to ask:
A corpus is a body of observations, a collection of linguistic
specimens.  A grammar is a body of rules and representations
describing those specimens, an abstract account of patterns manifest
in the corpus.  Which in your opinion has more authority over
language?  Do either have more than intuition?  This may be
confusing.  Here is an example:  The verb 'perform' cannot be used
with mass-word objects: one can perform a task, but one cannot
perform labour.  This is known without using a corpus or having
studied the verb perform.  But it makes sense to us because we are
native speakers of the English language.  Obviously intuition
wins.  Right?  Look forward to hearing your take, Brittany


From trb at BELLSOUTH.NET  Sun Nov 21 04:02:16 1999
From: trb at BELLSOUTH.NET (Terry Barber)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 23:02:16 -0500
Subject: corpus v. grammar v. intuition
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.230216.0500.>

good question,brittany.'when I find out I'll let you know. Love, MOm

BRITTANY M. BARBER wrote:

> Here is another thing I've been wanting to ask:
> A corpus is a body of observations, a collection of linguistic
> specimens.  A grammar is a body of rules and representations
> describing those specimens, an abstract account of patterns manifest
> in the corpus.  Which in your opinion has more authority over
> language?  Do either have more than intuition?  This may be
> confusing.  Here is an example:  The verb 'perform' cannot be used
> with mass-word objects: one can perform a task, but one cannot
> perform labour.  This is known without using a corpus or having
> studied the verb perform.  But it makes sense to us because we are
> native speakers of the English language.  Obviously intuition
> wins.  Right?  Look forward to hearing your take, Brittany


From sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU  Sun Nov 21 06:38:57 1999
From: sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. Roly Sussex)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:38:57 +1000
Subject: oofle dust
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.163857.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs reports foo-foo dust: in Aus there is rather a foo-foo valve:
when you blow your foo-foo valve you can take no more.

I suspect that oofle-dust is British. But how it came about ...
it SOUNDS as if it should be in some author like Roald Dahl,
but I'm pretty sure he isn't the source.

Roly Sussex


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 21 06:56:01 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 01:56:01 EST
Subject: Sangria; Tartini; H & C
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.015601.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SANGRIA

     Is "Sangria" Mexican?
     This is from Barnhart's Dictionary of Etymology:

_sangria_ n. Spanish drink made of red wine mixed with fruit juices.  1736
_sangre_; later _sangaree_ (1785),  _sangria_ (1954); of uncertain origin.
The word is attested in English nearly a century before it is recorded in
Spanish, and Corominas considers it improbable that the word is derived from
Spanish _sangria_ bleeding.

     OED has:

_Sangria_  Also _sangria_ [a Sp. sangria (see Sangaree).]  A cold drink of
Spanish origin composed of red wine variously diluted and sweetened.
1961 "J. WELCOME" _Beware of Midnight_ x. 119  ...a jug of Sangria for the
others..."It's a sort of Spanish Pimms."
1966 _House and Garden_ Dec. 79/3 Visitors to Spain soon become familiar with
sangria--the national iced wine cup.  The simplest form consists of slices of
fruit...soaked in a rough Spanish red wine and a little water...and ice added.

     The first hit on OCLC Worldcat is Fernando Grade's SANGRIA (1962), a
book of Portuguese poetry published in Lisbon.
     The first hit on Historical Newspapers Online is a sangria recipe in the
London Times, 24 December 1971.
     The Literature Online index had four poetry hits, from 1983, 1984, 1996,
and 1998.
     There is a Eureka HAPI (Hispanic American Periodicals Index) database,
but there wasn't a hit for "sangria."
     MLA Bibliography 1981-1999 turned up:

TITLE  Sangria "bebida": Historia del vocablo y propuesta etimologica; Actes
du XVIIe Cong. Internat. de linguistique et philologie romanes
(Aix-en-Provence, 29 aout-3 septembre 1983), V.
SOURCE  223-236 IN Bouvier-Jean-Claude (introd.). Sociolinguistique des
langues romanes.  Aix-en-Provence: Pubs. Univ. de Provence, 1984.  342 pp.

     This "sangria" and other items are from Sidney Clark's ALL THE BEST IN
MEXICO (1949):

Pg. 75  The Geneve's food is definitely good.  (Did they create the Swiss
enchilada?--ed.)
Pg. 144  ...in Taxco, where a famous tequila cocktail called the "Bertha" is
an established feature of life...Bertha (pronounced Bair-ta)...
Pg. 145  The Bertha, made with lime juice and simple syrup, looks like a Tom
Collins but tastes remarkably like a Daiquiri.
Pg. 146  There is a mild, delicious, and thoroughly Mexican beverage called
_sangria_, being a mixture of claret and lemon juice.

     Thoroughly Mexican?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TARTINI

     In the Saturday Night Live parody of HBO's "Sex and the City," Jennifer
Aniston and friends said that they were drinking
"tartinis"--cranberry-flavored vodka.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
H & C (continued)

     From ALL THE BEST IN MEXICO (1949) by sidney Clark, pg. 237:

     A plumbing note, apropos of nothing.  In provincial hotels if you turn
on the faucet marked with the letter C you almost always get hot water (if
there is any) and in turning the one marked H you get cold water.  This
hardware is imported from the States and all Mexican plumbers instantly
recognize that C stands for _Caliente_ (hot).  The H is a puzzle but it can
only serve for the other faucet.


From Dfcoye at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 21 18:32:58 1999
From: Dfcoye at AOL.COM (Dfcoye at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:32:58 EST
Subject: oofle dust
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.133258.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Never heard of this or foo-foo before growing up in Upstate NY, but is it too
much of a coincidence to suppose that oofle is related to Shakespeare's
ouphes 'elves' /u:fs/ in Merry Wives of Windsor 4.4.50, 5.5.57?   If I
remember right, elves lost /l/ somewhere along the line to give ouphes...

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From Dfcoye at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 21 18:33:00 1999
From: Dfcoye at AOL.COM (Dfcoye at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:33:00 EST
Subject: pizzeria pronunciation?
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.133300.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Spike Lee's Do the Right Thing   Sal, the owner of a pizzeria, pronounces
it as if it were  pizz ur EE uh-  Does anyone know if this is common in NYC
or among Italian-Americans elsewhere?

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From kelly at BARD.EDU  Sun Nov 21 18:35:23 1999
From: kelly at BARD.EDU (Robert Kelly)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:35:23 -0500
Subject: pizzeria pronunciation?
In-Reply-To: <0.26d9f997.256994dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.133523.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I grew up in a little Sicily in Brooklyn, and never heard it otherwise
than [pitz at r'i@] by Italo-Americans, i.e. pitz-ur-EE-uh.  Of course
Italians said it with different vowels, but the same stress.  How else is
it said?  RK


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 21 21:53:18 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:53:18 EST
Subject: 2000 Cocktail Calendar & "The Y2K"
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.165318.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    There is COCKTAILS: COOL CONCOCTIONS FOR THE COCKTAIL GENERATION! 2000 DESK CALENDAR by Jefferson Burruss.
     January 1/2 is:

Y2K
1 oz. bourbon
1/2 oz. Pernod
soda

     The other drinks (ask me if you want them described in full) are:

Baby Eskimo, Apple Cooler, Bronx Cocktail, Chicago, Daily Mail, Southland, Rum Buck, Chocolate Milkmaid, Monkey Gland, Irish Coffee, Whiskey Flip, Alabama Slammer, B-52, Ideal Cocktail, Black Cat, Favorite Cocktail, Stonewall, Fare Thee Well, Golden Dream, Bobby Burns, Kangaroo Cocktail, Night Owl, Dixie Whistle, Silver Arrow, Nevins, Rhett Butler, Narragansett, Amaretto Sour, Gin Rickey, Blood and Sand, Caffe Amaretto, White Russian, Noble Cocktail, Ink Street, Gentle Ben, Velvet Hammer, Rose Cocktail, Cuba Libre, Pink Cadillac, Farmer's Cocktail, Bloody Mary, Pendennis Club Cocktail, American Fizz, Cherry Smash, White Spider, Bentley, Knockout, Faded Jeans, Skip and Go Naked, Scotch Cooler, Bellini, Fuzzy Navel, Picador, Black RUssian, Sweet Old Pal, Godmother, Yale Cocktail (March 8, Yale College is chartered, 1701), Negroni, Mai-Tai, Dirty Sock, Grand Central, B&B, Fair and Warmer, Spring Fever, Wee Guinness, Woo-Woo, Temptation Cocktail, Napoleon, English Highball, Collee!
n, Black Magic, Sex on the Beach, Godfather, Adonis, Aqueduct, Martini Van Gogh, Parisian, Stinger, Rolls-Royce, White Lily, Knickerbocker, Broken Golf Cart, Tropical Dream, Mary Pickford, Bee's Kiss, Pina Colada, Cosmonaut, Hole-In-One, Saratoga, Martini, Income Tax, Baron Martini, Bee's Knees, Madras, Leave It To Me, Lady MacBeth, Presbyterian, Opal Cocktail, Nuclear Waste, Prince Edward, Maurice, New Yorker, Soviet, Sharky, Gin & Tonic, Manhattan, Margarita, Klondike Cooler, Mandeville, Orange Oasis, Ninotchka, Ritz, Melonball, Angel Face, Moscow Mule, Judge Jr., Mint Julep, Fairy Belle, Jack-in-the-Box, Angel's Wing, Bermuda Rose, Recliner, Rum Runner, Bahama Mama, Pefect Cocktail, Bond Martini (served shaken not stirred), Damn the Weather, Mississippi Mud, Weekend, Bluegrass Champagne, Queen Elizabeth, Kamikaze, Old-Fashioned, Normandy Cocktail, Platinum Blonde, Barn Door, Princeton Cocktail, Spencer,  Cowboy Cooler, Oyster Shot, Betsy Ross, Webster Cocktail, Stone Fence,!
 Bazooka Joe, Pike's Peak, Gibson, Daiquiri, THree Miller Cocktail, Feel Like a Holiday, Flying Saucer, Jack Rose, Double Standard, Piccadilly Cocktail, Paisley Martini, Belmont, English Rose Cocktail, Tom Collins, Stars and Stripes, Corkscrew, Hawaiian Volcano, 7&7, Ernest Hemingway, Beachcomer, Scorpion, Bay Breeze, Lynchburg Lemonade, French Connection, Afterglow, Applejack Rabbit, Between the Sheets, Pimm's Cup, Beanie's Bum, Barton Special, Rangoon Ruby, Greenback, San Juan, Nevada, Planter's Punch, Miami Beach, Barbary Coast, Matador, Alfonso Special, Fifth Avenue, Hudson Bay, Double Dare, Beauty Spot, Cosmopolitan, Bahama Storm, Hasty Cocktail, Whiskey Sour, Lemon Drop, Hoopla, Quaker's Cocktail, Bombay Cocktail, Bikini, Sea Breeze, Emerald, Harvey Wallbanger, Gin Aloha, Michael Collins, Greyhound, Tequila Sunrise, Colorado Bulldog, Jade, Cossack, Deauville, Dixie Cocktail, Caruso, Deep Sea, Apple Pie, American Beauty, El Diablo, Hurricane, Caipirinha, Beam Me Up Scotti!
e, Blue Seude, Sidecar, Olympic Cocktail, Screwdriver, Bloody Brain, Orient Express, Alabama Fizz, Jamboree, Opening Cocktail, Brandy Alexander, Chapel Hill (Sept. 21), Fireball, Fallen Angel, Eye-Opener, Modern Cocktail, Delmonico, Gilroy, Mudslide, Cabaret, Charles Cocktail, Saxon, Russian Cocktail, Rusty Nail, Caribbean Breeze, Bali, Snowball, Bamboo, Salty Dog, Nuts and Berries, Banana Cow, Algonquin, Havana Cocktail, Brass Monkey, Orange Buck, Grasshopper, Pall Mall, Blue Whale, Claridge Cocktail, Devil's Tail, Picasso, Brandy Fancy, Nob Hill, Harvard Cocktail, Gin Fizz, Zombie (Oct. 31), Tropical Depression, Maxim, Gasoline, Chelsea Sidecar, Singapore Sling, Devil's Smile, Jamaican Coffee, Berlin Martini, Morro, Cape Codder, Mojito, Prince of Wales, Royal Smile Cocktail, Plantation Punch, El Presidente, Applecar, Yellow Bird, Wembley Cocktail, Hat Trick, Thanksgiving Special, Diamond Head, Red Lion, Foxy Lady, Gin & Sin, Fuzzy Dice, Dorian Gray, Toasted Almond, Frostbite!
, Hot Toddy, Hennessy Martini, Bermuda High, Pearl Harbor, Victor, Paradise Cocktail, Dubonnet Fizz, Comfortable Screw, Montmartre, Cocomacoque, Scarlett O'Hara, East India Cocktail, Hollywood, XYZ Cocktail, Fontainebleau, Snow White, Gimlet, Eggnog For One, Poinsettia, Maiden's Blush, Hot Buttered Comfort, Rob Roy, Snowflake, Martini 2000.

   Check to see how many/few of these are in the OED.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 21 23:57:11 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:57:11 EST
Subject: Tartini & Pitza (continued)
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.185711.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TARTINI (continued)

   A Dow Jones check shows that this drink was probably invented at the hip, new Soho Grand Hotel in New York City.
   From the News and Observer (Raleigh, NC), 2-25-98, pg. F4:

   The Soho Grand Hotel in New York serves a cheeky, cherry-red Tartini.  A blend of Stoli Razberi, Chambord raspberry liqueur and cranberry juice, it uncannily replicates the flavor of a melted Luden's cough drop.

--------------------------------------------------------
PITZA (continued)

   A Dow Jones check shows that Newsday, 3-23-1990, cites a Brooklyn restaurant called Moustache Mideastern Pitza, 405 Atlantic Avenue, Boerum Hill, (718) 852-5555.
   The Atlanta Journal and Constitution (1997) and the Des Moines Register (1998) also show restaurants that serve "pitza," but "pitza" appears to come straight outta Brooklyn.

--------------------------------------------------------
ALPHABET STOCKS (continued)

   The Dow Jones database turned up the Wall Street Journal, 11-20-1985, in a story about GM Class H and Class E stocks.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Nov 22 00:29:35 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 19:29:35 -0500
Subject: pizzeria pronunciation?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.95.991121133319.20670C-100000@bard.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.192935.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

With normal syllable divisions (known hereabouts as making the most of your
onsets):

pee-tsuh-REE-uh.

dInIs (who can always spot Wisconsinites, who make the most of onsets to
the point of cluster formation - wI-SKON-suhn, compared to my "normal"
wIs-KON-suhn)



>I grew up in a little Sicily in Brooklyn, and never heard it otherwise
>than [pitz at r'i@] by Italo-Americans, i.e. pitz-ur-EE-uh.  Of course
>Italians said it with different vowels, but the same stress.  How else is
>it said?  RK


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 22 02:10:15 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 21:10:15 EST
Subject: corpus v. grammar v. intuition
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.211015.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I you tell me what you mean by "more authority over language" I might begin
to know how to answer the question. But also, I want to know who wrote the
grammar and why; and who collected the corpus, and under what conditions?

Your question really has no meaning without considering these vital
qualifications and discriminations.


In a message dated 11/20/1999 10:54:05 PM, bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU writes:

<< Here is another thing I've been wanting to ask:
A corpus is a body of observations, a collection of linguistic
specimens.  A grammar is a body of rules and representations
describing those specimens, an abstract account of patterns manifest
in the corpus.  Which in your opinion has more authority over
language?  Do either have more than intuition?  This may be
confusing.  Here is an example:  The verb 'perform' cannot be used
with mass-word objects: one can perform a task, but one cannot
perform labour.  This is known without using a corpus or having
studied the verb perform.  But it makes sense to us because we are
native speakers of the English language.  Obviously intuition
wins.  Right?  Look forward to hearing your take, Brittany >>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 22 02:12:11 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 21:12:11 EST
Subject: "The more things change,..."
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.211211.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/20/1999 6:23:46 PM, gcohen at UMR.EDU writes:

<<   Today I was  asked  who originated the expression "The more things
change, the more they remain the same."

     Would someone know the answer?  (is the French version perhaps the
original one?) >>

plus c,a change, plus c'est la me^me chose? yeah, I feel as though I learned
the French version first--but I don't know where--Molie`re?


From sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU  Mon Nov 22 03:37:19 1999
From: sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. Roly Sussex)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:37:19 +1000
Subject: plus ca change
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.133719.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

is from Alphonse Karr, Les Gue^pes, 1849:
Plus ca change, plus c'est la me^me chose
Roly Sussex


From elliottn at INDIANA.EDU  Mon Nov 22 03:57:43 1999
From: elliottn at INDIANA.EDU (Nancy Carol Elliott)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 22:57:43 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991119135019.00b2cb20@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.225743.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In response to Beverly Flanigan's and Larry Rosenwald's inquiries--

I primarily looked at the rhoticity of North AMerican actors representing
Americans, but a few UK actors were examined for comparison. The locale of
the film plot and prtrayed regional origin of the character didn't end up
being significant, but social class of the role did. The main factors in
variation were time and gender. Women were more r-less than men until the
60's, and in the 70's their average drops below that of the male actors
who are from r-less backgrounds (who preserve their native r-lessness
while everyone else becomes rhotic on film). "Bad girls" stay non-rhotic.
The actor's native region made some difference, but the pattern of change
was still the same - steady decrease (except that women's r-lessness
dropped sharply between the 30's and 40's to match the men's rate and then
didn't decrease at all between the 40's and 50's... 40's wartime equality
followed by a 50's return to elegance?) The same actors (I mean both
genders) in different films decreased their rate as the decades
progressed. They were pretty consistent in films of the same time period,
except when there was a big difference in the status of their role.

Within a film, I found lots of acfommodation by men to the rhoticity of
costars and lots of style shifting in the 60's and 70's (to mark
relationships and emotions) by male actors whose native dialects are
variably rhotic. (The pattern was very similar to the Elizabethan theatre
use of you and thou, but you'll have to read my dissertation to find out
how...)

During the 30's to 50's, men in the films very often became a lot more
r-less in the presence of ladies and a lot less r-less to the fellas. Also
in that time, there's a predominant pattern where the male lead is less
r-less than his female costar, no matter what her % is. (Astaire & Rogers
are a notable exception: his rate is always far above hers, but they
carefully choreograph their r-less rates to her status in their different
films, and he always stays the same percent above her rate.)

As for the Southwestern semi-r-lessness Beverly mentioned, John Wayne's
average rate of 4% r-lessness (that's only five r-less tokens out of 120
possible) in his 30's and 40's films is very, very low. Compared to other
30's and 40's male actors, he's unusual - way at the bottom of the range
(and Astaire is way off the scale in the other direction). Early Westerns
seem to be populated by rhotic characters. Even the women are way under
their gender-decade average. Westerns don't get stereotyped 'Slim Pickens'
speech until later on.

I think I just wrote my abstract. I defend in January (Indiana
University).

Nancy Elliott
Oregon Shakespeare Festival
elliottn at indiana.edu

On Fri, 19 Nov 1999, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> I gather you looked not only at "outsiders" playing Americans (and vice
> versa?) but also at Americans representing Americans.  Apparently you
> correlated degree of r-lessness with both the region/locale of the film
> plot and the  regional origin of the character in question?  Did you also
> consider social class, education, and age?  (You considered gender, as you
> note.)  The steady decline from 1930 to 1970 would go along with Labov's
> findings on post-WWII New York (for some classes); but what about Boston or
> Deep South settings?  Ray Milland could play a prototypical middle-class
> New Yorker of our parents' or grandparents' generation; Kevin Spacey of
> "Midnight in..." represents a younger but upper class Southerner
> (post-'70s, of course).  And John Wayne's 4% r-lessness would be reasonable
> in light of Hartman's (19??) suggestion of semi-r-lessness in the Southwest
> (Wayne's cowboy country).  Only 3 American "authentics" (my term) seems low
> to me.  But I'm assuming you looked at all these sociolinguistic
> factors!  Where did you do the dissertation?
>
> At 09:41 AM 11/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >I'm just finishing my dissertation on the subject of rhoticity in American
> >film speech from the 30's to the 70's. I collected data on about 50
> >subjects per decade (4-year period in a decade's midpoint) and got a
> >decade average from each subject's percentage of r-lessness. The decade
> >average decreases steadily from the 30's to the 70's (59 -> 43 -> 33 -> 22
> >-> 7), with interesting differences between female and male subjects.
> >
> >(Correction: Ray Milland's r-less rate is 92, not 98. And John Wayne's,
> >incidentally, is 4.)
> >
> >Nancy Elliott
> >
> >On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> >
> > > Very interesting!  Where did you get your percentages on r-lessness, and
> > > have you published anything on your 40-year analysis?
> > >
> > > At 04:51 PM 11/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Anthony Hopkins only gets half a star for his accent as Nixon.
> > > >
> > > >Of the American films I've studied (1930's to 70's) that have overtly
> > > >specified regional origins for a character, I found only three (US) actors
> > > >that made any kind of attempt to sound like that was where they were from.
> > > >
> > > >Of the Brits in American roles, Angela Lansbury is extremely successful --
> > > >of course she came to NY to study acting at the age of 15. Stephen Boyd
> > > >(Fantastic Voyage) gets 4 stars; I only heard a couple of Belfast vowels
> > > >from him. Ray Milland (The Lost Weekend ) didn't sound Welsh in the
> > > >1940's; the only remarkable thing I found about his speech was that he was
> > > >98% r-less, compared to an average of 42% for male American actors of that
> > > >decade.
> > > >
> > > >And then there's Cary Grant...
> > > >
> > > >Nancy Elliott
> > >
>


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Mon Nov 22 04:15:50 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 21:15:50 -0700
Subject: place pronunciations (was RE: pizzeria pronunciation?)
In-Reply-To: <l03130301b45e3e399ec8@[35.9.50.235]>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.211550.0700.>

Re:

>>dInIs (who can always spot Wisconsinites, who make the most of onsets to
the point of cluster formation - wI-SKON-suhn, compared to my "normal"
wIs-KON-suhn)<<

Speaking of which ... Is the "correct" pronunciation of a place or name that
of the natives, generally, or does some "objective" third party make these
decisions? For example, the wI-SKON-suhn pronunciation written above is
definitely that of a Wisconsinite, whereas Wisconsinites are mortified at
"foreigners'" pronunciation of wIs-KON-suhn. New Orleans is famous for
possessing a variety of pronunciations around the country. Towns ending
with -ville may be another example (I would say NASH-vill, while a native
would say NASH-vull, perhaps?). Anyone who's been to Milwaukee probably
noticed the natives saying m-WAH-kee, rather than mil-WAH-kee. The last two
cases may be simply a matter of laziness of the tongue; however, I am
interested to know exactly who DOES decide on these matters of
pronunciation.

Amy


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Mon Nov 22 04:17:42 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 23:17:42 -0500
Subject: place pronunciations (was RE: pizzeria pronunciation?)
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.231742.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Sunday, November 21, 1999, Amy Speed <speed at paradigmtech.com> wrote:
I am
>interested to know exactly who DOES decide on these matters of
>pronunciation.

Albert P. Fella, 82, of Okeechobee, Florida. He's hard of hearing, hates using the
telephone and doesn't work on Sundays, but he's the best we have.

--
Grant Barrett
gbarrett at americandialect.org


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Mon Nov 22 04:43:38 1999
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 23:43:38 -0500
Subject: Peep show; Pokemon; Pitza; Trillion; Alphabet stock
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.234338.0500.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Friday, November 19, 1999 6:22 PM
Subject: Peep show; Pokemon; Pitza; Trillion; Alphabet stock


>PEEP SHOW
>
>"This ain't no peep show."
>--ad in today's New York City newspapers for the new LOEWS 42nd St. E
Walk's
>13 screens.


"They dont smoke,
    They don't drink.
They'll turn this town into a mall, and I don't know what to think."

They Don't Smoke (Nueva Broadway) - Buster Poindexter

>PITZA (A "HYBREAD")
>
>     From the New York Daily News, "The Top 40" restaurants, 19 November
>1999, pg. 78, col. 1:
>
>Under $10
>(...) 2. Zaytoons
>Pitza is a "hybread" of pita and pizza.  The definitive combo is the
>lahambajin, comprising ground lamb, onion, tomato and spices.  There's also
a
>Middle Eastern version (lamb, merguez, parsley).  Or you can stick with the
>Italian (tomato sauce, mozzarella, garlic).  283 Smith St., at Sackett St.,
>Brooklyn, (718) 875-1880.



Calling it "pide" would've been too pedestrian, I suppose. Pide is pretty
much the national food of Turkey. As much as hamburgers are the national
food of the US. Cooked on a flatbread that can be so flat as to be rollable,
or with some leavening, and available with as many toppings as can be found
on pizzas, such as eggs, lamb, pastirma, cheese, vegetables, et al.

For those in the northern New Jersey area, I can provide my personal
favorite supplier of pide...

Bruce


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 22 05:53:32 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 00:53:32 EST
Subject: Cactus curtain; Friendly fire; Chip; MPB
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.005332.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CACTUS CURTAIN

     "Cactus curtain" has been used, but I haven't seen it recorded.  OCLC
WorldCat has:

THE CACTUS CURTAIN (1975), a film by Ernesto Galarza on the Mexican-American
struggle.
ACROSS THE CACTUS CURTAIN: THE STORY OF GUANTANAMO BAY (1984) by Theodore
Mason.

     "Cactus curtain" was used (with quotes) by the novelist Carlos Fuentes
in an article about Mexico in VOGUE, January 1, 1966, pg. 109.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
FRIENDLY FIRE

     I've been very briefly going through the Reader's Digest for "the whole
nine yards."  The phrase possibly comes from the military.  (I looked through
Sports Illustrated football articles and didn't find it.)  RD had a column
called "Humor in Uniform."
    OED Additions Series 2, pg. 102, has "friendly" from 1925 and "friendly
forces" from 1966 and "friendly fire" from 1976.  This is from the Reader's
Digest, "Humor in Uniform," Feb. 1966, pg. 105, col. 2:

     ARMY helicopters in Vietnam were sent to Tay Ninh Province to withdraw
friendly troops.  The landing zone was supposed to be secure, and no Vietcong
ground fire was expected.  Suddenly an excited voice shouted over the radio:
"Lead, this is Nine Five.  Drawing enemy fire from the right."
     "Negative, negative," came the flight leader's reply.  "Those are
friendly troops down there."
     "Affirmative," acknowledged the pilot who reported the fire.  "Drawing
friendly fire from the right."
     --WO EDWARD SMITH, quoted by UPI

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
(COMPUTER) CHIP

     Reader's Digest, January 1966, pg. 173, col. 1, has this article from
the September 19,  1965 New York Times Magazine:

_The "Chip"--_
_Newest Marvel in_
_Electronics_
   (...)  Behind all of this is the "chip," or integrated circuit, a
fantastic development which has been under way for several years.  At the
heart of the circuit is the transistor, already responsible for its own
electronic revolution.

    The OED has a citation in 1962 and another in 1966.  (Not an
antedate--I'm so ashamed.)  It's a good article, though.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
BEING JOHN MALKOVICH & "MALE PATTERN BALDNESS"

     I saw the film BEING JOHN MALKOVICH at the new 42nd Street E Walk ("This
ain't no peep show").  The first half is deliciously loopy, but then the
second half is contrived and you ask yourself too many logical plot questions.
     It was nice (in the first half) to see John Malkovich make fun of
himself.  Everyone knew that he was a great actor, but no one could remember
a role he played (how about the late Paul Bowles's THE SHELTERING SKY?).
     "Male pattern baldness" was mentioned.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 22 09:03:21 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 04:03:21 EST
Subject: Quentin Crisp
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.040321.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Quentin Crisp, 90, author of the 1968 book THE NAKED CIVIL SERVANT, has
died.
    This is from the obituary in today's New York Post, pg. 12, col. 5:

    Crisp coined several famous one-liners, including: "If at first you don't
succeed, failure may be your style" (The W. C. Fields second half of this was
better, IMHO--ed.), and "Never keep up with the Joneses; drag them down to
your level.  It's cheaper."

     The New York Times obituary contains the line I remember:

      "...the man asked me, 'Are you a practicing homosexual?'  And I said I
didn't practice.  I was already perfect."

      I sort of did some more work on "gay."  I live on East 57th Street, and
the American Psychological Association is on East 58th.  I found out that
they don't have a library there, but they have one in Washington.  I went to
the APA in Washington (opposite Union Station), but the library had no useful
archives from the 1930s and 1940s.  I was given the number of the Archives in
the History of Psychology at the University of Akron.  Now, I've been
directed somewhere else...
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Dr. John A. Popplestone" <jap4 at uakron.edu>
Subject: Re: Pschology archives for word "gay"
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:00:24 -0500
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URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/19991122/d8083ad3/attachment.mht>

From AAllan at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 22 13:58:09 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 08:58:09 EST
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.085809.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

According to Jim "the Mad Monk" Crotty's 1997 book, _How to Talk American_,
"the most important and tricky piece of Seattle vernacular" is: "yeah."
He adds: "It's almost _Fargo_-esque but different (not as dorky, almost
surfer-like) and best understood by example. 'So you got mugged in New York?'
'Yeah I did.' 'She is a total fox.' 'Yeah she is.'"

I have two questions: 1. Is this really a distinguishing feature of Seattle
(youth?) vernacular? and
2. what exactly is it? A matter of intonation, of pronunciation, of placement
in discourse, of frequency of use?

A writer for the Seattle Times, Jean Godden, included this item in a column
on Crotty's book without further comment, thereby implicitly agreeing with
it, I suppose, but not helping the explanation.

Thanks - Allan Metcalf


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 22 14:46:42 1999
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 09:46:42 -0500
Subject: oofle dust
In-Reply-To: <l03130300b45c5fcc5784@[35.9.48.28]>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.094642.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 20 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> Roly,
>
> I grew up with foo-foo dust (same meaning) in the South Midlands US. See
> DARE (Vol II) for a West African foofoo (dough) which came to the US and
> one Illinois citation for foo-foo dust meaning "dust bunny" (little balls
> of dust which collect under furniture). I'm surprised DARE doesn't have
> foo-foo dust for "magic powder."
>
> dInIs (whose daddy always sprinkled a little foo-foo dust around in reponse
> to unresonable requests)

A family friend of my first wife's parents who worked as a capt for Texaco
driving those huge tankers was in fabrics in the old country used "foo foo
stuff" for perfume; later I learned that it was a euphemism for excrement
in some circles. . .
=======================================================================
David Bergdahl          Ellis Hall 366         Ohio University / Athens
Associate Prof/English  tel:  (740) 593-2783   fax:  (740) 593-2818
                        bergdahl at oak.cats.ohiou.edu
                    http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
=======================================================================


From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM  Mon Nov 22 15:24:13 1999
From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Enid Pearsons)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:24:13 -0500
Subject: Quentin Crisp
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.102413.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Didn't he also say something about being (approx.) "the last of the stately
homos of England"?

))))))))) Previous Notes Mail
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
To:     ADS-L @ LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
cc:     (bcc: Enid Pearsons/Trade/RandomHouse)
From:  Bapopik @ AOL.COM
Date:  11/22/99 04:03 AM
Subject:  Quentin Crisp




    Quentin Crisp, 90, author of the 1968 book THE NAKED CIVIL SERVANT, has
died.
    This is from the obituary in today's New York Post, pg. 12, col. 5:

    Crisp coined several famous one-liners


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov 22 15:52:13 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:52:13 -0400
Subject: Pitza (continued)
In-Reply-To: <0.8769fe10.2569e0d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.115213.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:57 PM -0500 11/21/99, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>--------------------------------------------------------
>PITZA (continued)
>
>   A Dow Jones check shows that Newsday, 3-23-1990, cites a Brooklyn
>restaurant called Moustache Mideastern Pitza, 405 Atlantic Avenue, Boerum
>Hill, (718) 852-5555.
>   The Atlanta Journal and Constitution (1997) and the Des Moines Register
>(1998) also show restaurants that serve "pitza," but "pitza" appears to
>come straight outta Brooklyn.
>
What's interesting is that this is a vacuous blend in the spoken language,
given the homophony of "pitza" and "pizza".  At least "hybread" is a real,
God-fearing blend phonologically as well as orthographically.  Any other
examples of a pre-neutralized blend?  (I suppose someone could invent a
"sand-witch", made with real sand, but the market would appear limited.)

Larry


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 22 18:06:07 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:06:07 -0500
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
In-Reply-To: <0.4916a73a.256aa5f1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.130607.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I suspect it's a matter of pronunciation, since it sounds as if Crotty is
mocking the same kind of "yeah" we use in Minnesota:  [ja] or 'yah', with
some lengthening, but no ingliding or schwa (roughly [jE at h], or "ye-ugh",
which is what my Ohio-raised son says.  And it's not just a youth thing;
we've always done it.  Our West Coast people can comment on whether or not
they say it similarly.  But Fargo/Minnesota people sound "dorky"???

At 08:58 AM 11/22/99 -0500, you wrote:
>According to Jim "the Mad Monk" Crotty's 1997 book, _How to Talk American_,
>"the most important and tricky piece of Seattle vernacular" is: "yeah."
>He adds: "It's almost _Fargo_-esque but different (not as dorky, almost
>surfer-like) and best understood by example. 'So you got mugged in New York?'
>'Yeah I did.' 'She is a total fox.' 'Yeah she is.'"
>
>I have two questions: 1. Is this really a distinguishing feature of Seattle
>(youth?) vernacular? and
>2. what exactly is it? A matter of intonation, of pronunciation, of placement
>in discourse, of frequency of use?
>
>A writer for the Seattle Times, Jean Godden, included this item in a column
>on Crotty's book without further comment, thereby implicitly agreeing with
>it, I suppose, but not helping the explanation.
>
>Thanks - Allan Metcalf


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 22 18:21:14 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:21:14 EST
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.132114.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     See the Seattle Lexicon at www.calihan.com/seattle/lexicon.htm.  E-mail:
seattle at calihan.com.
--Barry Popik


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 22 18:24:25 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:24:25 EST
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.132425.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oops.  Make that Callihan (not Calihan).  This screen is too small.


From ladcox at SPH.SC.EDU  Mon Nov 22 19:48:51 1999
From: ladcox at SPH.SC.EDU (Lorraine A Adcox)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:48:51 -0600
Subject: PLEASE TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.991119165727.15124A-100000@pisa.ling.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.134851.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

my email is either ladcox at sc.edu (alias) OR
ladcox at sophe.sph.sc.edu
Thank you for taking me off this list

Lorraine A. Adcox, MS, CCC-SLP
Speech-Language Pathologist
Clinical Instructor
ladcox at sc.edu
ladcox at the-greenspan.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Aaron Drews
> Sent: Friday, November 19, 1999 11:14 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
>
>
> On Fri, 19 Nov 1999, James Smith wrote:
>
> }--- Aaron Drews <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK> wrote:
> }
> }> And Kevin Costner.... nil
> }>
> }> --Aaron
> }
> }Aaron,
> }
> }Just what kind of an accent would the "real" Robin
> }Hood have had?  Certainly not that of Errol Flynn or
> }Cary "I have an English accent" Elwes!  I suspect
> }Kevin sounded as close to authentic as any other
> }actor!
> }
> }JIM
>
> I would expect the real Earl of Sherwood would have had some sort of
> Mercian dialect of early Middle English.  So, yes, Costner would have
> sounded as authentic as anybody else nowadays.  I have to admit, I'd love
> to see a production of Robin Hood in any dialect of Middle English.  And,
> of course, the _real_ story of Robin Hood, too.
>
> But, don't blame me for Hollywood's thinking that anything that takes
> place in England (Robin Hood, King Arthur, Shakespeare) must be spoken in
> a mainstream (ie, RP, Estuary, Cockney, etc) accent rather than early
> Middle English, ancient Welsh or early Modern English.  It's by that
> definition I was judging Costner (et al).
>
> --Aaron
>
>
>
> ========================================================================
> Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
> aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                  Departments of English Language and
> http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron       Theoretical & Applied  Linguistics
>
> "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
>         --Death
>


From ladcox at SOPHE.SPH.SC.EDU  Mon Nov 22 19:47:33 1999
From: ladcox at SOPHE.SPH.SC.EDU (Lorraine A Adcox)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:47:33 -0600
Subject: take me off the list please
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.134733.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would really like to get off this list.  I've tried to go through
Topica, but apparently they have been unsuccessful.
Please take me off your list.
ladcox at sc.edu
OR
ladcox at sophe.sph.sc.edu
Thanks


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Mon Nov 22 19:31:58 1999
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:31:58 -0500
Subject: "gay: (was Quentin Crisp)
In-Reply-To: <382A0A39.CD8DCDB6@bcomp.metro-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.143158.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry says he will atttempt again to antedate the specialization of
the word "gay" to the meaning of "homosexual".  It is of course well
known that in the 19th century the slang sense of the word indicated
prostitution (on the part of women) and in general the sort of
raffish lifestyle enjoyed by prostitutes and the men who associate
with them.  (I don't have "gay" in this sense in my lexicographical
notes, though I have seen it in, for instance, the National Police
Gazette of the 1880s; in my New York City history notes I have a
young prostitute in the early 1820s pleading with a judge not
to send her to prison as a disorderly person, by acknowledging that
she led a "free life" but asserting that she had "more real modesty
than commonly supposed" and that she was raising her younger sisters
in the paths of virtue.  Regretably, the judge wasn't moved, and the
newspaper editor who quoted her words was toasted by his rivals for
being soft on sinfulness.)  It is also well known that the earliest
record of the word with the specialization to homosexuality is a
lexicon compiled by the late Gershom Legman in 1941.

George Chauncey, in his "Gay New York: Gender, Urban Culture, and the
Making of the Gay Male World, 1890-1940" [BasicBooks, 1994] discusses
the word "gay" over pp. 14-21.  The historical information he offers
supports the notion that the sense was rather a novelty when Legman
recorded it.
        Queer, fairy, trade, gay and other terms each had a
specific connotation and signified specific subjectivities, and the
ascendancy of gay as the pre-eminent term (for gay men among gay men)
in the 1940s reflected [something].  (14)
        Fag was widely used in the 1930s, but almost exclusively by
"normals" (the usual word then for those who were not queers); gay
men used the word faggot instead, but it was more commonly used by
blacks than whites.  (15, illustrated with examples)
        While gay white men also used the term faggot (although less often
than blacks), they rarely reffered to themselves as being "in the
life," a phrase commonly used by black men and women.  (15)
        While the terms queer, fairy, and faggot were often used
interchangeably by outside observers (and sometimes even by the men
the observed), each term also had a more precise meaning among gay
men. . . .  (15)
        [Discussion of the words "queer" and "trade", (15-16)]
        Ultimately men who detested the word fairy and the social category
it signified were the ones to embrace gay as an alternative label for
themselves.  (16)
        [A man] recalled in 1951 that the word gay "originated with the
flaming faggots as a 'camp' word, used to apply to absolutely
everything in any way pleasant or desireable (not as 'homosexual'), .
. . [and only began] to mean 'homosexual' lter on."  [Chauncey's
ellipsis and paraphrase.]  (17)
        [Chauncey quotes a man who recreates a conversation he had had in
1937 in which he uses the word "gay", but I suppose that we shouldn't
be over-confident that the man interviewed wasn't transporting the
later word into the earlier time. (17-18)  On the other hand,
Chauncey also quotes passages from several "camp" novels of the mid
1930s that suggest that this sense was already known.]  ". . . you
look positively gay in the new clothes.  Oh, said Harold, you're
lovely too, dear. . . ."  A chorus boy gushed to his friend in
another, . . . "I'm lush.  I'm gay.  I'm wicked.  I'm everything that
flames."  (17-18, quoting from "The Young and Evil" of 1933 and
"Butterfly Man" of 1934)
        And Cary Grant's famous line in the 1938 film Bringing Up Baby
played on several of these meanings: he leapt into the air, flounced
his arms, and shrieked "I just went gay all of a sudden," . . .
because he was asked why he had put on a woman's nightgown.  (18)
        As one gay writer explained in 1941, ***  One might ask [of a
strange man]: "Are there any gay spots in Boston?"  And by slight
accent put on the word "gay" the stranger, if wise, would understand
that homosexual resorts were meant.  ***  (18, citing a typescript in
the Kinsey Institute)
        And in the early 1930s a speakeasy on East Twenty-eighth Street
seeking gay patronage noted suggestively that it was located "in the
Gay 20's."  (19; a note on p. 379 says "the speakeasy's invitation is
preserved in an unidentified lesbian's scrapbook [in the Kinsey
Institute]).

So, it does not seem likely that the history of this sense of the
word can be pushed much further back than the presently accepted
date, and then only with luck.

Charles Kaiser's book "The Gay Metropolis, 1940-1996" [Houghton
Mifflin, 1997] has nothing to contribute.

GAT


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov 22 20:39:52 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:39:52 -0500
Subject: "gay: (was Quentin Crisp)
In-Reply-To: <19380ED4D39@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.153952.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Gershon Legman's introduction to Farmer and Henley he says that he had
an extensive collection of citations for sexual vocabulary (he also refers
to a similar collection gathered by Harry Johnson of New Jersey -- anyone
have any idea who he was?).  I have spoken recently with Legman's widow,
and she has promised me to keep an eye out for citation files in going
through his papers.  Perhaps Legman had pre-1941 evidence for _gay_
'homosexual.'


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 22 21:38:45 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:38:45 -0500
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.163845.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(Oops--I shouldn't have had that 'h' in my rough transcription of
(southern) Ohio 'yeah'.  My basic point though is that it's not lexical
only; the word is clearly not regionally restricted, as the Callihan
website would seem to imply.)

I suspect it's a matter of pronunciation, since it sounds as if Crotty is
mocking the same kind of "yeah" we use in Minnesota:  [ja] or 'yah', with
some lengthening, but no ingliding or schwa (roughly [jE at h], or "ye-ugh",
which is what my Ohio-raised son says).  And it's not just a youth thing;
we've always done it.  Our West Coast people can comment on whether or not
they say it similarly.  But Fargo/Minnesota people sound "dorky"???

At 08:58 AM 11/22/99 -0500, you wrote:
>According to Jim "the Mad Monk" Crotty's 1997 book, _How to Talk American_,
>"the most important and tricky piece of Seattle vernacular" is: "yeah."
>He adds: "It's almost _Fargo_-esque but different (not as dorky, almost
>surfer-like) and best understood by example. 'So you got mugged in New York?'
>'Yeah I did.' 'She is a total fox.' 'Yeah she is.'"
>
>I have two questions: 1. Is this really a distinguishing feature of Seattle
>(youth?) vernacular? and
>2. what exactly is it? A matter of intonation, of pronunciation, of placement
>in discourse, of frequency of use?
>
>A writer for the Seattle Times, Jean Godden, included this item in a column
>on Crotty's book without further comment, thereby implicitly agreeing with
>it, I suppose, but not helping the explanation.
>
>Thanks - Allan Metcalf


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 22 21:41:35 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:41:35 -0500
Subject: place pronunciations (was RE: pizzeria pronunciation?)
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.164135.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Seriously though--I always tell my students to respect the local
pronunciation of place and family names--why not?  The notorious
mispronunciation around here is of a town named "Chauncey":  locals
pronounce it to rhyme with 'Nancy', while outsiders (students, mostly)
insist it "should be" rhymed with 'flaunt'.  When I ask them how they
pronounce "aunt," they start to get the point; showing a map of the
variable pronunciation of that word in England also helps.  However, where
to divide consonants in a word like "Wisconsin" is trickier; as a
Minnesotan, I share our neighbors' pronunciation, but this may be too hard
to "get one's tongue around" (as a guy in "American Tongues" says).

At 11:17 PM 11/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sunday, November 21, 1999, Amy Speed <speed at paradigmtech.com> wrote:
>I am
> >interested to know exactly who DOES decide on these matters of
> >pronunciation.
>
>Albert P. Fella, 82, of Okeechobee, Florida. He's hard of hearing, hates
>using the
>telephone and doesn't work on Sundays, but he's the best we have.
>
>--
>Grant Barrett
>gbarrett at americandialect.org


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 22 21:25:47 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:25:47 -0500
Subject: "gay: (and Geo. Chauncey)
In-Reply-To: <19380ED4D39@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.162547.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quite unrelated:  Do you have any idea how George Chauncey pronounces his
last name??  I'm trying to recall the Peter Sellers movie (was it "Being
There"?), where Sellers' Chance the Gardener becomes Chauncey Gardiner,
with an "upgrade" in the pronunciation of the first name.  Obviously, I'm
curious!

At 02:31 PM 11/22/99 -0500, you wrote:

>George Chauncey, in his "Gay New York: Gender, Urban Culture, and the
>Making of the Gay Male World, 1890-1940" [BasicBooks, 1994] discusses
>the word "gay" over pp. 14-21.  The historical information he offers
>supports the notion that the sense was rather a novelty when Legman
>recorded it.
>
>GAT


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Mon Nov 22 21:01:16 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:01:16 -0500
Subject: "gay: (and Geo. Chauncey)
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.160116.0500.>

Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> Quite unrelated:  Do you have any idea how George Chauncey pronounces his
> last name??  I'm trying to recall the Peter Sellers movie (was it "Being
> There"?), where Sellers' Chance the Gardener becomes Chauncey Gardiner,
> with an "upgrade" in the pronunciation of the first name.  Obviously, I'm
> curious!

Yes, it was _Being There_.

Lynne, who's been there and seen that


M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 23 01:05:21 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:05:21 EST
Subject: Cactus/Tortilla Curtain; Caipirinha
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.200521.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CACTUS CURTAIN/TORTILLA CURTAIN

     "The Cactus Curtain" by Jose Luis Cuevas appeared in EVERGREEN REVIEW, Winter 1959, pg. 111.  I haven't seen it--a poet named Ginsburg wrote for this Review, so NYU has the whole darn thing in Special Collections.
     On Tortilla Curtain:

1966--Patricia Ann Groves, PENETRATING THE "TORTILLA CURTAIN": A LINGUISTICS-BASED READING-READINESS GUIDE TO TEACHERS OF MEXICAN-AMERICAN CHILDREN ON THE PRE-FIRST GRADE LEVEL.  (Book; MA Thesis at University of Texas at El Paso.)
1973--Lawrence Ferlinghetti, SALUTE ("...Bamboo or Torilla curtain...).  (Poetry.)
1978--Miami Herald, October 23, pg. 1, col. 6, abstract:  Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) plans to build steel and mesh barrier to separate congested areas of El Paso, Tex., from Juarez, Mexico.  Critics dub wall "Tortilla Curtain."
1978--Washington Post, October 24, pg. A6:  6 1/2-mile-long "tortilla curtain."
1979--Ellwyn R. Stoddard, EL PASO-CIUDAD JUAREZ RELATIONS AND THE "TORTILLA CURTAIN": A STUDY OF LOCAL ADAPTATION TO FEDERAL BORDER POLICIES.  (Book.)
1980--Teatro del Piojo, TORTILLA CURTAIN (other: Rangel, Ruben). (Play?)
1992--Daniel A. Gilewitch, THE BORDER FENCE AT EL PASO, TEXAS: SYMBOLISM, PRECEPTIONS, AND EFFECTIVENESS OF THE "TORTILLA CURTAIN."  (Book.)
1995--T. Coraghessan Boyle, THE TORTILLA CURTAIN.  (Novel.)

--------------------------------------------------------CAIPIRINHA

  From NEW CLASSIC COCKTAILS (1997) by Gary Regan and Mardee Haidin Regan, pg. 27:

THE CAIPIRINHA
A traditional Brazilian cocktail, origin unknown
  First off, you need to know how to pronounce two Portuguese words: _caipirinha_ (kai-purr-EEN-yuh) and _cachaca_ (kuh-SHAH-suh).  As any beach boy in Rio will tell you, the former is a traditional Brazilian mixed drink, the latter the name of the liquor used to make it.  The Caipirinha is Brazil's national drink and has been around for longer than anyone can remember; and yet it deserves a place in this book of new cocktails, simply because only in recent years has the drink gained popularity Stateside.  And if ever a drink could be called a classic, the Caipirinha is it.
    Roughly translated, the word _cipirinha_ means "small country bumpkin" or "hick," possibly because it is prepared and served in the same glass, without straining or any fancy machinations.

    The earliest OCLC WorldCat hit is Heitor Villa-Lobos A HISTORIA DA CAIPIRINHA (1940), a music score.  Lexis/Nexis Universe has it from 21 October 1984, New York Times, sec. 6, part 2, pg. 56, col. 1.  Literature Online has it only from 1993, in a Brian Cox poem called "A Week-end in Rio."
    I don't know why this doesn't show up earlier.  Quite a few of my modern drink books don't have "caipirinha."  I'll check the OED and other places.  This is one of the few drink "origin unknowns" in Regan's book.


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Nov 23 04:08:31 1999
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:08:31 -0800
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.200831.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: <AAllan at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 1999 5:58 AM
Subject: Yeah, Seattle


> I have two questions: 1. Is this really a distinguishing feature of
Seattle
> (youth?) vernacular? and
> 2. what exactly is it? A matter of intonation, of pronunciation, of
placement
> in discourse, of frequency of use?
>
> A writer for the Seattle Times, Jean Godden, included this item in a
column
> on Crotty's book without further comment, thereby implicitly agreeing with
> it, I suppose, but not helping the explanation.

I'm from SEattle, and I've heard some kids around here talk that way, but
I'm not sure if this particulary type of speech is peculiar to Our Fair
City.  My daughter(lives in California), says "yeah, yeah, yeah", all the
time.
Anne Gilbert


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Nov 23 04:53:31 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:53:31 -0800
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
In-Reply-To: <0.4916a73a.256aa5f1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.205331.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ok, this is my best guess. I think what Mr Crotty is referring to is a
matter of intonation. I thought about this off and on all day and, after
rereading the examples below, think that it is perfectly normal to hear in
Seattle and perhaps the PNW generally something like:
"She's a total fox." "YEAH-she-is"
"Man, that's a long commute!" "YEAH-t-is"
By which I mean a very quick response with a hard stress on "Yeah" and
then a sharp decrease in emphasis on the rest of the phrase.
The phrase does nothing more than to indicate agreement, usually strong
agreement with what has been said. It's equivalent to "Sure is!" or the
like.
I never thought of this as peculiar to Seattle, or to any place
else. Doesn't seem very tricky either, but maybe I've just been
doing it for so long ...

Perhaps Peter McGraw can help with the southern portion of the PNW
dialect.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Mon, 22 Nov 1999 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:

> According to Jim "the Mad Monk" Crotty's 1997 book, _How to Talk American_,
> "the most important and tricky piece of Seattle vernacular" is: "yeah."
> He adds: "It's almost _Fargo_-esque but different (not as dorky, almost
> surfer-like) and best understood by example. 'So you got mugged in New York?'
> 'Yeah I did.' 'She is a total fox.' 'Yeah she is.'"
>
> I have two questions: 1. Is this really a distinguishing feature of Seattle
> (youth?) vernacular? and
> 2. what exactly is it? A matter of intonation, of pronunciation, of placement
> in discourse, of frequency of use?
>
> A writer for the Seattle Times, Jean Godden, included this item in a column
> on Crotty's book without further comment, thereby implicitly agreeing with
> it, I suppose, but not helping the explanation.
>
> Thanks - Allan Metcalf
>


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 23 04:36:30 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:36:30 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: journalist's request]
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.233630.0500.>

Hi all--

I got the following from this columnist, and told him that I couldn't
help him, but would be happy to ask you-all.  Not really dialectal, but
notice the PS at the bottom, which could be your opportunity to impress
the world with your favorite factoid.  I'd suggest responding to him
directly (and cc'ing the list if you like), as I'm not in much of a
position to act as go-between right now.

Lynne, who's whelmed and on the way to overwhelmed

Bill Sones wrote:

> Dear Dr. Murphy,
>
> I am coauthor of a weekly newspaper column called "Strange
> But True," now in about 50 papers worldwide (Cleveland Plain
> Dealer, Akron Beacon Journal, Chicago Sun-Times, Portland
> Oregonian, Hartford Courant, Ft. Worth Star-Telegram, Peoria
> Journal-Star, Ottawa Citizen, Halifax Herald, New Zealand
> Listener, Sur in English, Gulf News--United Arab Emirates,
> Zambia Daily Mail, etc).  We do the column in Q & A format,
> usually with three items per column, focusing on some of the
> ZANIER, MORE STARTLING byways of scientific research, such
> as dreams, voodoo, hypnosis, animal cognition, laws of
> happiness.  It is our belief that verifiable facts and
> information are more fun to read than sensationalistic stuff
> that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, though it may make for
> titillating headlines.  So, we're looking for the strange,
> but true.
>
> We wonder if you might help us proof the answer to the
> offbeat question below.  Does the answer seem accurate?  Are
> there other key aspects that should be mentioned?
>
> Thank you much for considering our request.
>
> By the way, I found your name and e-mail link by searching
> the Internet.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Bill Sones
> 2685 Euclid Heights Blvd. #6
> Cleveland Heights, Ohio 44106-2827
> strangetrue at ameritech.net

>      Q.  Why when you repeat your name over and over does it
> begin to sound odd, even unfamiliar?  Something similar
> happens when you stare a while at your face in a mirror.
>      A.  Psychologists talk of "semantic satiation," or
> meaning overload.  Now your name or face seem suddenly
> strange, as if some new aspect or oddness pervaded it.
> These are instances of "jamais vu" (never before seen),
> coined as the opposite of "deja vu" (already seen).
>      Well-known deja vu is the sudden sense of familiarity
> in a strange place, or feeling you've done something before
> when in fact you haven't, says Leonard George, Ph.D., in
> "Alternative Realities."  Jamais vu reverses this, with a
> familiar feature or object seeming suddenly novel.
>      You look at a friend and there's something different
> about her.  New lipstick or hairstyle?  The altered detail
> may elude you, but SOMETHING is different.  "Unrecognition
> may pervade everything you experience at the moment."
>      In the extreme, this becomes the "illusion of doubles":
> A close friend or family member is thought to have been
> replaced.  Modern victims tend to blame extraterrestrial
> aliens or secret government experiments.  In premodern
> times, fairies were believed to have kidnapped the loved one
> and substituted a "changeling."
>      In 1897, in Ireland, Michael Cleary became convinced
> his wife Bridget had been replaced by a changeling, and
> tortured her to death trying to extract a fairy confession.
> Then he set off into the woods, brandishing a knife, looking
> to set his "real" wife free.  "Have you no faith?," he
> defended himself to friends.  "Did you not know that it was
> not my wife, she was too fine to be my wife, she was two
> inches taller than my wife."
>      Cleary got 20 years for manslaughter.

PS  Have any favorite quirky linguistics facts or principles of a
strange but true nature?  E.g., Rich and I did an item about babbling
babies at a certain age running through the phonemes of their soo
language-to-be.  That sort of thing.  Thx!!

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 23 05:16:36 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:16:36 -0500
Subject: fat chance
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.001636.0500.>

Do any of you phrase-chaser-downers know the origin of the phrase "fat
chance"?  I'm wondering if the original usage was ironic, since a "fat
chance" is really a "slim chance" and since you can only seem to use it
as an exclamation on its own--well at least according to my intuition.
I wouldn't say "He had a fat chance of getting there."  I tried to do a
quick web search for the phrase to see how others use it, but was
inundated by diet sites and fat farms.

Lynne, who likes antonyms rather too much

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov 23 12:50:21 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:50:21 -0400
Subject: fat chance
In-Reply-To: <383A2332.E6F20713@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.085021.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:16 AM -0500 11/23/99, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>Do any of you phrase-chaser-downers know the origin of the phrase "fat
>chance"?  I'm wondering if the original usage was ironic, since a "fat
>chance" is really a "slim chance" and since you can only seem to use it
>as an exclamation on its own--well at least according to my intuition.
>I wouldn't say "He had a fat chance of getting there."  I tried to do a
>quick web search for the phrase to see how others use it, but was
>inundated by diet sites and fat farms.
>
>Lynne, who likes antonyms rather too much
>

Pretty sure it was ironic ab initio. Steven Pinker discusses the "fat
chance" in the same section as "I could care less" in his chapter on the
Language Mavens in _The Language Instinct_ and proposes an ironic origin
for both.  This is a fairly productive pattern, as attested in e.g.

 A (fat) lot of good THAT ever did me.

where the negative character of the apparently positive quantifier is
supported by the negative polarity item it licenses.  I haven't done an
early cite search on "fat chance", though.

Larry
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From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov 23 16:39:06 1999
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:39:06 -0800
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.10.9911221818550.30318-100000@saul9.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.083906.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was wondering when we were going to hear from Allen about this one.  My
guess was the same as his.  I still maintain that commas are commonly used
to "spell" intonation patterns, and in this case what the speakers do is
"leave out the comma."  I.e., they intone an utterance like "Yeah it is" as
a single sentence (with one primary stress and one falling intonation--both
on "Yeah"--and flat intonation on "it is," or sometimes with primary stress
and falling intonation on "Yeah" and rising intonation on "is") instead of
as two--i.e., "Yeah, it is" (with primary stress and falling intonation on
both "yeah" and "is").

I've heard this intonation pattern, but not for quite awhile, and haven't
ever associated it with the Pacific Northwest.  I have no idea where I've
heard it, but I have the impression it was from college-age speakers.  For
all I know they might have been from Seattle.  It's not prevalent enough
around here for me to have noticed, anyway.

Peter Mc.

--On Mon, Nov 22, 1999 8:53 PM -0800 "A. Maberry"
<maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU> wrote:

> Ok, this is my best guess. I think what Mr Crotty is referring to is a
> matter of intonation. I thought about this off and on all day and, after
> rereading the examples below, think that it is perfectly normal to hear in
> Seattle and perhaps the PNW generally something like:
> "She's a total fox." "YEAH-she-is"
> "Man, that's a long commute!" "YEAH-t-is"
> By which I mean a very quick response with a hard stress on "Yeah" and
> then a sharp decrease in emphasis on the rest of the phrase.
> The phrase does nothing more than to indicate agreement, usually strong
> agreement with what has been said. It's equivalent to "Sure is!" or the
> like.
> I never thought of this as peculiar to Seattle, or to any place
> else. Doesn't seem very tricky either, but maybe I've just been
> doing it for so long ...
>
> Perhaps Peter McGraw can help with the southern portion of the PNW
> dialect.
>
> Allen
> maberry at u.washington.edu
>
> On Mon, 22 Nov 1999 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>> According to Jim "the Mad Monk" Crotty's 1997 book, _How to Talk
>> American_, "the most important and tricky piece of Seattle vernacular"
>> is: "yeah." He adds: "It's almost _Fargo_-esque but different (not as
>> dorky, almost surfer-like) and best understood by example. 'So you got
>> mugged in New York?' 'Yeah I did.' 'She is a total fox.' 'Yeah she is.'"
>>
>> I have two questions: 1. Is this really a distinguishing feature of
>> Seattle (youth?) vernacular? and
>> 2. what exactly is it? A matter of intonation, of pronunciation, of
>> placement in discourse, of frequency of use?
>>
>> A writer for the Seattle Times, Jean Godden, included this item in a
>> column on Crotty's book without further comment, thereby implicitly
>> agreeing with it, I suppose, but not helping the explanation.
>>
>> Thanks - Allan Metcalf
>>



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Nov 23 18:05:38 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:05:38 -0800
Subject: Sangria; Tartini; H & C
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.100538.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Europe in the late 60's I purchased what I recall
were called sangria oranges from Spain, blood red
around the stem but the rest orange in color.  The
flesh inside had the same dual coloration.  So my
question: is the sangria orange a natural variation
and the drink possibly named for it, or was the orange
perhaps developed to take advantage of the name
recognition of the drink? (Or are the names of the
orange and drink unrelated?)

JIM

--- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> SANGRIA
>
>      Is "Sangria" Mexican?
>      This is from Barnhart's Dictionary of
> Etymology:
>
> _sangria_ n. Spanish drink made of red wine mixed
> with fruit juices.  1736
> _sangre_; later _sangaree_ (1785),  _sangria_
> (1954); of uncertain origin.
> The word is attested in English nearly a century
> before it is recorded in
> Spanish, and Corominas considers it improbable that
> the word is derived from
> Spanish _sangria_ bleeding.
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 23 18:12:46 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:12:46 EST
Subject: Jerusalem Syndrome; Sangria
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.131246.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

JERUSALEM SYNDROME

   "Jerusalem Syndrome" was mentioned today at About.com.  It's a condition where people visit Jerusalem and become messianic nuts.  It's said that this disease has caught millennial fever.
   Does Barnhart have it?
   (Tamony files "Sangria" response attached.)
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From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 23 17:48:05 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:48:05 -0500
Subject: Jerusalem Syndrome; Sangria
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.124805.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There was a story on Jerusalem Syndrome on the reincarnated (Fox TV) version
of Michael Moore's show 'TV Nation'.  It was pretty interesting--they
interviewed lots of Jerusalem psychiatrists.  Here's the blurb from their
web site.  This was show #2 in their Fox days--I don't have a date for that,
though.  A couple of years ago?

Lynne, who's accustomed to people coming to Waco and thinking they're the
Messiah

Jerusalem Syndrome
Each year millions of tourists visit the Holy Land. Occasionally, a few of
them get off the tour
bus and believe they are Jesus. Doctors in Jerusalem have named this
phenomenon the
"Jerusalem Syndrome." TV Nation walks the path of the prophets to
investigate.


----------
>From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Jerusalem Syndrome; Sangria
>Date: Tue, Nov 23, 1999, 1:12 PM
>

>JERUSALEM SYNDROME
>
>   "Jerusalem Syndrome" was mentioned today at About.com.  It's a condition
>where people visit Jerusalem and become messianic nuts.  It's said that
>this disease has caught millennial fever.
>   Does Barnhart have it?
>   (Tamony files "Sangria" response attached.)
>


From bergdahl at OHIO.EDU  Tue Nov 23 18:43:00 1999
From: bergdahl at OHIO.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:43:00 -0500
Subject: Sangria; Tartini; H & C
In-Reply-To: <19991123180538.11140.rocketmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.134300.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In Europe in the late 60's I purchased what I recall
>were called sangria oranges from Spain, blood red
>around the stem but the rest orange in color.  The
>flesh inside had the same dual coloration.  So my
>question: is the sangria orange a natural variation
>and the drink possibly named for it, or was the orange
>perhaps developed to take advantage of the name
>recognition of the drink? (Or are the names of the
>orange and drink unrelated?)
>
could these be Blutorangen in Germany or "blood oranges" in the US?

____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl            tel:
(740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov 23 22:04:35 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:04:35 -0500
Subject: Meme Identification
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.170435.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

I've been seeing this in tech circles for a while now and I'd like to point it out
here, for the record.

It's the simple identification of a phrase that the author, writing in a casual
context, knows has joined the current Internet discussion memes. This is often done
simply via capitalization, but also by the adding of the suffix of TM or (tm) or some
other version of the trademark symbol  (™ on a Mac).

"Good Thing (tm)" is one. I believe it originates from Marth Stewart. Another is
"They Just Don't Get It (tm)." Below are two citations of many.


http://slashdot.org/articles/99/03/29/192234.shtml

The basic platforms and protocols will be open (as if they aren't already), but
there will always be a place for proprietary software: production apps, multimedia apps,
games, etc. This will be a Good Thing, and profits made from proprietary software
will then be turned around to fund OSS projects that will benefit everyone.


http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/11/22/155207&mode=flat

Users ANYWHERE can access web/ftp/whatever sites on the other side of the globe as
easily as they can the ISP downtown. Legislators just can't seem to fathom this. They
Just Don't Get It (tm). And unless the US plans to blockade packets from whole
nations (not gonna happen).


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov 23 23:56:17 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:56:17 -0500
Subject: Sangria; Tartini; H & C
In-Reply-To: <19991123180538.11140.rocketmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.185617.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There here guys sound like Seville (Sevilla) oranges to me.

dInIs (who encountered his first white wine sangria [making the blood
analogies pale] in Brasil)



>In Europe in the late 60's I purchased what I recall
>were called sangria oranges from Spain, blood red
>around the stem but the rest orange in color.  The
>flesh inside had the same dual coloration.  So my
>question: is the sangria orange a natural variation
>and the drink possibly named for it, or was the orange
>perhaps developed to take advantage of the name
>recognition of the drink? (Or are the names of the
>orange and drink unrelated?)
>
>JIM
>
>--- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>> SANGRIA
>>
>>      Is "Sangria" Mexican?
>>      This is from Barnhart's Dictionary of
>> Etymology:
>>
>> _sangria_ n. Spanish drink made of red wine mixed
>> with fruit juices.  1736
>> _sangre_; later _sangaree_ (1785),  _sangria_
>> (1954); of uncertain origin.
>> The word is attested in English nearly a century
>> before it is recorded in
>> Spanish, and Corominas considers it improbable that
>> the word is derived from
>> Spanish _sangria_ bleeding.
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Nov 24 00:57:48 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:57:48 -0500
Subject: Jerusalem Syndrome; Sangria
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.195748.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jerusalem Syndrome or Jerusalem syndrome

Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 11.2), earliest date = 1987?  At
the time there were in excess of 100 quotations.

It is also entered in "Among the New Words" in AmSp (Vol. 73.1).

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion
www.highlands.com/Lexik


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 24 05:55:44 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 00:55:44 EST
Subject: Caipirinha (continued)
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.005544.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CAIPIRINHA (continued)

"Tall and tan and young and lovely
The girl from Ipanema goes walking
And when she passes, each one she passes goes--ah!"
--THE GIRL FROM IPANEMA (song lyrics)

     I'll nail Brazil's national drink.  Give me some time.

17 October 1953, NEW YORKER, pg. 82, col. 2:  What he gets are black cigars,
boxes of matches to light them with, black chickens with their throats slit,
and, most favored of all, bottles of _cachaca_, a violent Brazilian drink
made from sugar cane.

7 March 1965, NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE, pg. 30, col. 1:  The sand was strewn
with white flowers, mostly lilies, and quantities of "white" alcohol called
_cachaca_, were drunk.

18 October 1975, SATURDAY REVIEW, pg. 24, col. 3:  It was just such a tableau
that is said to have inspired "The Girl From Ipanema," a song that has now
become a standard.  "The girl" has matured to a matron, but in her time she
captivated the songwriters gathered in a small, off-beach cafe then called
Velloso.  Now the music and lyrics are enshrined on the wall, and the cafe is
called "A Garota de Ipanema," a place to resurrect memories, invoke musical
history, sip a _caipirinha_--clear sugar cane brandy, mashed sugar, and
limes--nibble a _sandulche_ of _peru_ (that's the turkey of Brazil) and
behold this year's crop of beauties promenading in The String, hopeful of
inspiring some artist to literary or musical creation.

     Ah!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
JERUSALEM SYNDROME (continued)

     The Dow Jones database has 420 hits for "Jerusalem syndrome."  There
were 135 hits up to 12-31-97, 125 hits in 1998, and there have been 160 hits
so far in 1999.
      The first citation, as the _Barnhart's_ points out (adding "?"), is
from 1987; a play with the title of "Jerusalem Syndrome" opened that year.
Yair Bar-El of Jerusalem's Kfar Shaul Hospital appears to have discovered the
malady.  A 10-1-1994 article in the Peoria Journal states that the syndrome
was "first recognized 14 years ago."


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov 24 12:17:10 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 07:17:10 -0500
Subject: Caipirinha (continued)
In-Reply-To: <0.b88be5d3.256cd7e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.071710.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not quite. It's true that the booze in a caipirinha (literally, little
hillbilly [fem.]) is cachaça, but it is chopped up whole limes which get
mashed. The bitterness of the zest from the skins as well as the pulp juice
contribute to the distinctive taste. ("Mashed sugar" didn't make much sense
anyhow did it?)

dInIs (who makes them from time to time just to bring back memories)

 >CAIPIRINHA (continued)
>
>"Tall and tan and young and lovely
>The girl from Ipanema goes walking
>And when she passes, each one she passes goes--ah!"
>--THE GIRL FROM IPANEMA (song lyrics)
>
>     I'll nail Brazil's national drink.  Give me some time.
>
>17 October 1953, NEW YORKER, pg. 82, col. 2:  What he gets are black cigars,
>boxes of matches to light them with, black chickens with their throats slit,
>and, most favored of all, bottles of _cachaca_, a violent Brazilian drink
>made from sugar cane.
>
>7 March 1965, NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE, pg. 30, col. 1:  The sand was strewn
>with white flowers, mostly lilies, and quantities of "white" alcohol called
>_cachaca_, were drunk.
>
>18 October 1975, SATURDAY REVIEW, pg. 24, col. 3:  It was just such a tableau
>that is said to have inspired "The Girl From Ipanema," a song that has now
>become a standard.  "The girl" has matured to a matron, but in her time she
>captivated the songwriters gathered in a small, off-beach cafe then called
>Velloso.  Now the music and lyrics are enshrined on the wall, and the cafe is
>called "A Garota de Ipanema," a place to resurrect memories, invoke musical
>history, sip a _caipirinha_--clear sugar cane brandy, mashed sugar, and
>limes--nibble a _sandulche_ of _peru_ (that's the turkey of Brazil) and
>behold this year's crop of beauties promenading in The String, hopeful of
>inspiring some artist to literary or musical creation.
>
>     Ah!
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>---------------------------------------------
>JERUSALEM SYNDROME (continued)
>
>     The Dow Jones database has 420 hits for "Jerusalem syndrome."  There
>were 135 hits up to 12-31-97, 125 hits in 1998, and there have been 160 hits
>so far in 1999.
>      The first citation, as the _Barnhart's_ points out (adding "?"), is
>from 1987; a play with the title of "Jerusalem Syndrome" opened that year.
>Yair Bar-El of Jerusalem's Kfar Shaul Hospital appears to have discovered the
>malady.  A 10-1-1994 article in the Peoria Journal states that the syndrome
>was "first recognized 14 years ago."


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Nov 24 19:22:23 1999
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:22:23 -0800
Subject: No soap
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.112223.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A friend remarked to me yesterday on the expression "no soap" (meaning
"nothing doing") and asked if I had any idea where it came from
(etymologically, not geographically speaking).  I didn't.  Does anybody out
there?  I'm not aware that it's regional.

Peter Mc.

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 24 19:45:40 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:45:40 EST
Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.144540.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anybody commented on the complimentary epithet "hella good"? Seems to be
among young people on the Pacific Coast.
- Allan Metcalf


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Wed Nov 24 19:25:52 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:25:52 -0500
Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.142552.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Sodus NY (b/w Rochester & Syracuse on Lake Ontario), there's a cheese
company called Helluva Good Cheese.  I've heard "helluva good" all around,
but not widespread.

Lynne
----------
>From: AAllan at AOL.COM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
>Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999, 2:45 PM
>

>Has anybody commented on the complimentary epithet "hella good"? Seems to be
>among young people on the Pacific Coast.
>- Allan Metcalf


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Wed Nov 24 20:33:55 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:33:55 -0500
Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.153355.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Wednesday, November 24, 1999, AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:
>Has anybody commented on the complimentary epithet "hella good"? Seems to be
>among young people on the Pacific Coast.
>- Allan Metcalf
>

We've got a few mentions of "hella" in various contexts in the ADS-L archive.

Hella, for me, has been one of those words writers use consciously, kind of like the
word "redux." Of course, it's because the word is outside of my peer group and
social circle; the most likely way I would encounter such words is via writing.

Some of the more pertinent posts:


On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Jesse T Sheidlower wrote:

  Not entirely sure; it depends on how accurate the
  transcription is. "Hella-" is an intensive prefix like
  "mega-," that has been in use at least since the late
  '80s. I've never heard "hawkin'" before, but I have
  (rarely) encounted "honkin'" meaning roughly "exciting;
  jammin', etc." Perhaps these are different realizations
  of the same word.


Mary Bucholtz:

I'd be interested in knowing where you've heard "hella." As far as I
can tell it's restricted to Northern California, esp. the Bay Area--does
that fit your own observations? I wouldn't characterize it as a prefix,
incidentally--what leads you to describe it this way?


Dan Moonhawk Alford:

I agree about the accuracy; I'll ask my student to say it for me. Re:
below, yes -- this is Northern California data, where what is "hella-"
here is often "hecka-" in LA. An emergent dialect split along the lines
of "101" vs "the 101".


--
Grant Barrett
gbarrett at americandialect.org


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Nov 24 22:38:55 1999
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:38:55 -0800
Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
In-Reply-To: <01JIPW20D48IB0YE62@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.143855.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Wed, Nov 24, 1999 2:25 PM -0500 "M. Lynne Murphy"
<M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU> wrote:

Helluva Good Cheese <snip>  but not widespread.
>

Groan!!!  :)

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM  Wed Nov 24 23:21:40 1999
From: bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM (Bookrat)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:21:40 -0800
Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
In-Reply-To: <0.adfe4a27.256d9a64@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.152140.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:45 AM -0800 11/24/99, AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:
>Has anybody commented on the complimentary epithet "hella good"? Seems to be
>among young people on the Pacific Coast.

I don't know about "hella good", but "hella" as an adjective has been used
by young people in my region (San Jose, California) at least since the late
80s (Some of those young people have inevitably become slightly older
people.)  My impression is that it was first in use in the alternative rock
scene, and spread out from there -- I know I saw it in an alternative 'zine
(along with "hecka") circa 1990.

I can testify that it is still in use -- just a couple of weeks ago one of
my co-workers turned to another and said, "It's been hella busy today."

(My peers and I work with a lot of mostly twenty-something college
students.  We're all about staying contemporary. :-)  )

Ken Miller
Assistant Drone
Johnson Institute for the Study of Harmless Drudgery


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Nov 24 23:53:39 1999
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:53:39 -0600
Subject: "No soap!"
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.175339.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Peter McGraw (Nov.24)  inquires:

>A friend remarked to me yesterday on the expression "no soap" (meaning
>"nothing doing") and asked if I had any idea where it came from
>(etymologically, not geographically speaking).  I didn't.  Does anybody out
>there?  I'm not aware that it's regional.

**** I have treated this expression in:
Gerald Leonard Cohen: _Studies in Slang_, part 2 (= _Forum Anglicum_, vol.
16), Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang, 1989.  pp.150-151; article title: ' _No
Soap!_ "Nothing Doing, No Go"'
--------The article ponts out that  'soap' was a criminal slang term for
'money.'  Cf.  an 1865 attestation  from _Leaves From The Diary of a
Celerated Burglar and Pickpocket_ 1865 :  'How They "Reefed" Up His
"Leather" And Secured His "Soap".'

   So the original context of 'No soap!' was apparently one in which a
criminal was asked for a loan (or was about to be asked by a perennial
borrower.).  The reply 'No soap' simply meant 'No money.'

    Cf. also slang 'No dice!' (= Nothing doing!)--clearly with an original
reference to refusing dice to a gambler.  And  cf.  an 1865  example of 'No
bottle'  with the same meaning ('Nothing doing;  no go), clearly from an
original context  of a bartender refusing a bottle of wine to a customer:

    _(Leaves...._, 1865):  'she [a thieving hen] flew over onto the counter
and "grannied" [looked at]  the "slide" [ apparently: money box], but that
was no "bottle," it was "screwed" [locked];  so there was nothing for it
but dry goods.'

    So, 'no soap,' 'no dice,' 'no bottle'--all originally  expressing
refusal to someone unreliable.

----Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 25 05:27:06 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 00:27:06 EST
Subject: "No soap!"
Message-ID: <THU.25.NOV.1999.002706.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     "No Soap!" was used in World War I.  It should be in the archives--I
thought I posted a WWI list here that included it.  "No soap, radio!"
followed.
     James A. Beard wrote a terrific series on drinks for HOUSE & GARDEN in
the 1950s-1960s.  This is from October 1959, pg. 188 and pg. 190:

_FAVORITE DRINKS_
_FROM SOUTH AMERICA_
   (_Cachaca_ is mentioned at the start.  The large treatment is given to
Batida I, Batida II, Coco de Agua, Champagne with Pineapple, Absinthe
Cocktail, Batido, Vaina, Pisco Sour I, and Pisco II--ed.)

     "Caipirinha" is never mentioned--and Beard wrote that he'd lived in
Brazil.  That 1975 citation is still our first.  I've looked through a bunch
of 1950s and early 1960s article on Rio, and "cachaca" is there but
"caipirinha" is not.  All indications are a late 1960s-early 1970s coinage
for what's been described as "Brazil's national drink."
      Happy Thanksgiving!


From greg at PULLIAM.ORG  Thu Nov 25 05:26:18 1999
From: greg at PULLIAM.ORG (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 23:26:18 -0600
Subject: geek vs. nerd article
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.232618.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Go here for an article about these terms, their current usage, and
their etymology.  I haven't checked for validity.


http://www.news-observer.com/daily/1999/11/15/biz00.html
-
Greg


From sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM  Thu Nov 25 06:00:09 1999
From: sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM (Chuck Borsos)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 22:00:09 -0800
Subject: Jerusalem Syndrome
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.220009.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Robert Stone's novel Damascus Gate discusses Jerusalem Syndrome


From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 25 16:01:39 1999
From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:01:39 PST
Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
Message-ID: <THU.25.NOV.1999.080139.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Hella" seems to fill the same niche as "wicked" here around Boston.

But "wicked" can be adjective or adverb -- as can "helluva" -- but "hella"
seems to be an adverb only... Is that correct?

What other regional substitutions for "very!" are there?

Dan

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From c0654038 at TECHST02.TECHNION.AC.IL  Thu Nov 25 18:27:34 1999
From: c0654038 at TECHST02.TECHNION.AC.IL (Alexey I. Fuchs)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 20:27:34 +0200
Subject: fat chance
In-Reply-To: <383A2332.E6F20713@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.25.NOV.1999.202734.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Do any of you phrase-chaser-downers know the origin of the phrase "fat
> chance"?  I'm wondering if the original usage was ironic, since a "fat
> chance" is really a "slim chance" and since you can only seem to use it
> as an exclamation on its own--well at least according to my intuition.
> I wouldn't say "He had a fat chance of getting there."  I tried to do a
> quick web search for the phrase to see how others use it, but was
> inundated by diet sites and fat farms.
>
> Lynne, who likes antonyms rather too much


        I would suppose that adding "fat" before chance to indicate that
the chance is small (whereas "fat" is intuitively associated with "big")
could be done to show that the chance is especially easy to escape. In
wrestling, as far as I know, putting fat on one's body is an illegal move
made to the end of slipping out of the rival's grip. Seems like a very
narrow usage, but there are idioms in different languages where "fat" is
related to the idea of escaping or slipping away.

                                                        Alexey


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Nov 25 17:28:53 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 12:28:53 -0500
Subject: Yankee DOODLE
Message-ID: <THU.25.NOV.1999.122853.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had an inquiry concerning the origin of _Doodle_ as in _Yankee
Doodle_.  Did it come from earlier (1628) _doodle_ meaning "a silly or
foolish person" [ultimately from German _dupeltopf_ meaning "simpleton]?

Happy Thanksgiving,
David K. Barnhart
Barnhart at highlands.com


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Thu Nov 25 21:57:20 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:57:20 -0500
Subject: fat chance
Message-ID: <THU.25.NOV.1999.165720.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry Popik actually answered my query privately and directed me to the
RHDAS, which confirmed my suspicion that "fat chance" is historically
sarcastic.  "Slim chance" precedes it.

Lynne
----------
>From: "Alexey I. Fuchs" <c0654038 at TECHST02.TECHNION.AC.IL>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: fat chance
>Date: Thu, Nov 25, 1999, 1:27 PM
>

>> Do any of you phrase-chaser-downers know the origin of the phrase "fat
>> chance"?  I'm wondering if the original usage was ironic, since a "fat
>> chance" is really a "slim chance" and since you can only seem to use it
>> as an exclamation on its own--well at least according to my intuition.
>> I wouldn't say "He had a fat chance of getting there."  I tried to do a
>> quick web search for the phrase to see how others use it, but was
>> inundated by diet sites and fat farms.
>>
>> Lynne, who likes antonyms rather too much
>
>
>        I would suppose that adding "fat" before chance to indicate that
>the chance is small (whereas "fat" is intuitively associated with "big")
>could be done to show that the chance is especially easy to escape. In
>wrestling, as far as I know, putting fat on one's body is an illegal move
>made to the end of slipping out of the rival's grip. Seems like a very
>narrow usage, but there are idioms in different languages where "fat" is
>related to the idea of escaping or slipping away.
>
>                                                        Alexey


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Nov 26 04:22:13 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 20:22:13 -0800
Subject: Yankee DOODLE
In-Reply-To: <msg48441.thr-cf98f6.f555e@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <THU.25.NOV.1999.202213.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's the OED derivation. Actually it's says [cf. L.G. dudeltopf, -dop,
simpleton, noodle, lit. night-cap]. This might be a question that requires
a look at Grimm's Deutsches Woerterbuch, which I won't have access to
until Monday. Apparently of different orgin than the "dudel" in
"Dudelsack", "bagpipe" which OED is Slavic, cf. Polish "dudlio"=bagpipe.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, Barnhart wrote:

> I had an inquiry concerning the origin of _Doodle_ as in _Yankee
> Doodle_.  Did it come from earlier (1628) _doodle_ meaning "a silly or
> foolish person" [ultimately from German _dupeltopf_ meaning "simpleton]?
>
> Happy Thanksgiving,
> David K. Barnhart
> Barnhart at highlands.com
>


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Nov 26 04:06:32 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:06:32 -0500
Subject: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Message-ID: <THU.25.NOV.1999.230632.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I heard this lately on a local FM station used by a panelist.  It
reminded me a bit of the blah-blah-blah of a few years ago.  He said it
several times during the session.  Each time it was said not only
"without" the hyphens (i.e. very rapidly) but with a trailing off in
stress as if he couldn't get it out fast enough.  My impression was
that he was impatient with the other panelists.  It made me think also
of the popular use of O.K. inserted into a long statement in which the
speaker is punctuating the delivery at certain stages in the
development of a complex thought.

David Barnhart
barnhart at highlands.com


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 26 06:27:20 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 01:27:20 EST
Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.012720.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Among Southeners of all ages and ethnic backgrounds, "pretty" is used for
"very," but not for "very, very."   For "oikay," I've often heard, "so so"
and "fair to middling."
                                        PAT


From sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU  Fri Nov 26 07:16:19 1999
From: sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. Roly Sussex)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:16:19 +1000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.171619.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear colleagues,

This is a kind of language request; forgive me if I am imposing
on anyone's patience.

I think I have read somewhere that Lord Kelvin (or Rutherford? a
major scientist anyhow) said something like:
        if you can't explain your scientific ideas in terms that
        a milkmaid could understand, then there is something
        wrong with either you or the idea
(not the milkmaid! ... it could be nursemaid ...)

My question is: does anyone know where this came from? The Web
is most unhelpful, and I've exhausted all my usual sources of
answers for questions from out of left field.

I'd be most grateful if anyone can put me out of my misery.

Roly Sussex
The University of Queensland


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 26 16:10:13 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:10:13 -0400
Subject: fat chance
In-Reply-To: <01JIRFNNCBPEB0ZBCF@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.121013.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Barry Popik actually answered my query privately and directed me to the
>RHDAS, which confirmed my suspicion that "fat chance" is historically
>sarcastic.  "Slim chance" precedes it.
>
>Lynne
>----------
>>From: "Alexey I. Fuchs" <c0654038 at TECHST02.TECHNION.AC.IL>
>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>Subject: Re: fat chance
>>Date: Thu, Nov 25, 1999, 1:27 PM
>>
>>        I would suppose that adding "fat" before chance to indicate that
>>the chance is small (whereas "fat" is intuitively associated with "big")
>>could be done to show that the chance is especially easy to escape. In
>>wrestling, as far as I know, putting fat on one's body is an illegal move
>>made to the end of slipping out of the rival's grip. Seems like a very
>>narrow usage, but there are idioms in different languages where "fat" is
>>related to the idea of escaping or slipping away.
>>
>>                                                        Alexey

Yes, I'm afraid my intuitions go with Lynne and Barry here, much as I
appreciate the image of folks pursued by but easily outdistancing those
overweight chances waddling after them.  The image does get a bit fuzzier
when you remember that the chances you're trying to escape from are ones
you want to be caught by:

        Fat chance the 49ers will make the playoffs.
        ??Fat chance the Colts will lose the rest of their games.

(That is, the "fat chance" is the one you wish would come to fruition.)
And it's not just those obese chances that are waddling along, it's also
those metabolically challenged lots of good ("A fat lot of good THAT'll
do").  Positive intensifiers are used in English in a wide range of
constructions with sarcastic or ironic effect, and this is just one of many
such.  Among the others:

        He's a real genius.    [esp. with sarcastic nasalization] =
                                'He's a total idiot'
        What a brilliant/great move.
        You're a great help.   NOT!
(the Retro-NOT, discussed here extensively a few years ago)
        You're a great help, I DON'T think.
(cf. OED on THINK, III.9.b. "used after an ironical statement to
indicate that the reverse is intended")

Most of the attested cites for these retroactively-cancelling negatives
(see Sheidlower & Lighter on Retro-NOT in Am. Speech 1993) involve an
emotive positive intensifier ("great", "fine", "brilliant", "nice") in the
ironic utterance, analogous to our "fat chance".

Larry
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From madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Fri Nov 26 17:21:10 1999
From: madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:21:10 -0800
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911101147330.3722-100000@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.092110.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

this has publishing lingo:

     Author:  International Paper Company.

           Title:  Pocket pal : a graphic arts production handbook.
                   11th ed.  New York : International Paper Co., 1974.
                   191 p. : ill. ; 19 cm.

        Subjects:  Printing--Handbooks, manuals, etc.

probably available in more up-to-date edition by now.

sylvia swift
madonna at socrates.berkeley.edu


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Nov 26 21:42:58 1999
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:42:58 -0700
Subject: Hospital slang
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.144258.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The following was sent to me by a chief surgical resident of a Manhattan hospital:

boxed: v died rapidly "that jumper boxed up a storm"

bagged: v to shoot someone in the lower abdomen in order to cause an injury requiring a colostomy, reportedly an L.A. usage

malkarmagenize: v to create bad karma; "he malkarmagenized us by wishing us an easy night on call, now all hell's going to break loose -that malkarmagenizer!"

bus: n ambulance "that guy barfed (bled, defecated, exploded) all over the bus"

shake and bake: adj to have a high fever, alt. early alcohol withdrawal

suck-cut: n from Wayne's World, liposuction

carriage trade: n having practice restricted to wealthy patients

chits: n short for chitlins, small intestines "that guy had his chits hanging out!"

code master: n one who excels at bringing people back from cardiac arrest

trauma mama: n female chief resident who excels at trauma surgery

lock in: adj refers ICU on-call where the resident cannot leave the ICU

medatrons: n residents in the department of medicine, friendly confreres of surgeons

turf: v to transfer the patient to another service (usually the department of medicine)

placement: n disposition of the patient, often very difficult in the case of the homeless, unethically solved with a turf

HMO+: adj state of being covered by a bad health maintenance organization and likely to suffer because of it, like being HIV+.

flamethrower: n Bovie electrocautery, a device that coagulates blood and tissue with alternating electrical current

extra crispy: adj highest setting on electrocautery (electric scalpel)

stun: adj lightest effective setting on the electrocautery "set the Bovie on stun."

FMG's: n foreign medical graduates, needed to fill vacant residency positions not filled by US graduates

circle jerk: n attendings calling on unnecessary consultations from friends in other specialties when the diagnosis is clear; alt usage, calling numerous consults for medicolegal reasons

W.O.F.F.: abbr will operate for food, surgical resident's status in life

Tubes and Fingers in Every Hole: phr essential part of trauma resuscitation

Surgical Nutrition Rounds: n lunch or dinner, usually announced over PA

troll: n intern

punt: v delay, "Let's punt, get a medicine consult."; alt a synonym for turf

WHMO: n HMO on-hold music on speakerphone for the enjoyment of the ward

Preparation-H: adj state of having attended Harvard college, medical school, and residency at a Harvard-affiliated hospital, used by people in Boston or by people who hate Boston, ie just about everyone

Cipro slut, Fluconazole floozy, Bristol-Mayer babe, etc: n mini-skirt clad female drug company representative

doing my job: v lying to HMO's about the severity of a patient's condition to get a medically indicated procedure, medication, or test approved

New York thing: n a condition particular to New York where doctors (and sometimes patients, sadly) have to beg and plead to non-medical hospital staff to get things done; "I had to grovel to housekeeping to get that patient's vomit mopped up... it's a New York thing."; there is also a Boston thing. 

Hillaried: adj rhymes with pilloried, when something popular and sensible is made unpalatable by the personage championing it

bisque: n pus that looks (and smells) like bisque, var salmon bisque, lobster bisque

chowder: n thick creamy pus that looks like chowder because it's chunky

minestrone: n chunky, more liquified reddish pus that looks like minestrone

seize: v from seizure, literally having a seizure, feel exhilaration and elation, "Haag seized when he found out we were letting him have this weekend off."


W.S. Michael Park, MD
Chief Resident
Dept of Surgery
in some hospital in Manhattan


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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 26 18:58:04 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:58:04 -0400
Subject: "Jerusalem Syndrome"
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.145804.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For those not yet O.D.'d on the Syndrome, there's an article in today's New
York Times (11/26/99, A13), "Jerusalem Forecasts Sudden Surge of
'Saviors'", a Reuters dispatch.  The article informs us that the incidence
of J.S. has picked up about 50-60% already, with more in sight by the
millennium.  Here's an excerpt:
===================
   Some sufferers arrive mentally disturbed and become convinced they are
biblical figures:  Old Testament prophets, King David, Jesus, John the
Baptist, or the Virgin Mary.  Others come to Jerusalem with visions of the
end of the world.  Still others arrive with no evident disorder, yet then
feel compelled to don white robes--sometimes the sheets from their hotel
beds--and preach rambling sermons.
===================

Wonder if the local hostelries might consider shifting to colored sheets
until the millennium arrives.  That would either discourage the practice
or, at worst, make for a more festive syndrome.

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 26 19:04:22 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:04:22 -0400
Subject: Jerusalem Syndrome, part 2:  attribution
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.150422.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oh, I forgot to note that in case this hadn't come up in the previous
postings on the topic (it probably has, but I didn't save the posts) the
aforementioned Reuters dispatch cites "Dr. Yair Bar-El, the Jerusalem
district psychiatrist who identified the syndrome in 1982."

Larry


From gibbens at EROLS.COM  Sat Nov 27 01:59:15 1999
From: gibbens at EROLS.COM (Elizabeth Gibbens)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 20:59:15 -0500
Subject: So-So
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.205915.0500.GIBBENS@EROLS.COM>

I agree about "pretty" for "very."

And in Southern Louisiana--Cajun country--we used to say "comme ci comme ca"
for "so-so" or "O.K."


Elizabeth Gibbens


----- Original Message -----
From: <P2052 at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 1999 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: Hella good Thanksgiving!


> Among Southeners of all ages and ethnic backgrounds, "pretty" is used for
> "very," but not for "very, very."   For "oikay," I've often heard, "so so"
> and "fair to middling."
>                                         PAT
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 27 09:30:11 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 04:30:11 EST
Subject: Hospital slang
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.043011.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     See Jerry Dunn's IDIOM SAVANT (1997), "Medical Workers," pages 3-16.
Almost none of IDIOM's terms are duplicates with Gareth's posting!
     The following acronyms have been circluating on the web (see deja.com)
since 8-9-99, supposedly from the book WHY FIRE ENGINES ARE RED:

MUH--messed up heart
PBS--pretty bad shape
PCL--pre-code looking
HIBGIA--had it before, got it again
CCFCCP--coo coo for Cocoa Puffs
CATS--cut all to shit
FDGB--fall down, go boom
TBC--total body crunch
     The following are "dead" synonyms:
ART--assuming room temperature
CC--cancel Christmas
CTD--circling the drain
DRT--dead right there
NLPR--no long playing records


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 27 18:28:42 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:28:42 EST
Subject: spendy
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.132842.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's not in the dictionary; but people in Washington State, and Oregon, and
Idaho, and Montana, and maybe Minnesota know what "spendy" means = expensive.
Examples:

   Faribault County, Minnesota: "I voted for Arne Carlson because he is a
good businessman and reigned in our spendy legislature for two terms and
turned up a surplus."
   Boise, Idaho: "Kempthorne Plan May Be Too Spendy, Some Critics Say."
   Seattle: "Ferry Ramp Proves Spendy Folly."
   Portland, Oregon: "Parking Overtime in Portland Gets Spendy."

Is that the right limit of distribution? Anybody speak of "spendy" in the
south or east?

- Allan Metcalf


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Nov 27 18:51:54 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:51:54 -0500
Subject: spendy
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.135154.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_Spendy_ is an entry in _The Barnhart Dictionary Companion_ (Vol. 10.2,
Winter 1998).  In spite of its earliest date (1989), it has not made it
into many dictionaries, notably Encarta (1999).

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

THE FOLLOWING IS COPYRIGHT MATERIAL:

spendy, adj.  spendier, spendiest.  {W}  1. costly, expensive, pricey.
Standard (used in U.S. contexts dealing especially with economics;
frequent)

The ride lasts about an hour and when you touch down several miles from
lift-off point you are treated to an unbelievably elegant champagne
breakfast all cooked over the burners of the balloon.  It's a bit
spendy, about $200, but well worth the cost.  John Kieran, "The Africa
of dreams," The San Diego Union-Tribune (Nexis), April 3, 1986, p C-1

You've heard grumbling about that old aluminum pasta pot, consider a
piece of  Calphalon, a spendy but impressive brand of heavy
spun-aluminum cookware.  Kim Severson, "Yule-Tensils: Cooking up
practical gifts for your favorite chef," Anchorage Daily News (Nexis),
Dec. 11, 1996, p 1E

2.  generous with money; advocating a large budget. (frequency?)

"Budget cut" now apparently means a large budget increase, albeit one
somewhat smaller than has been advocated by the interests served by the
program to be "cut." "Five hundred billion dollar deficit reduction" is
an annual deficit increase each year for five years, at the end of
which time the national debt will be much larger than it is now, but
$500 billion less than has been called for by the spendiest advocates.
"Intellectual Integrity--Columnists overlooked recent examples of
doublespeak," The Seattle Times (Nexis), July 3, 1993, p A9

1985.  Composite (suffixation): formed from spend (OED: c1175) + -y
(OED: 1546) the diminutive suffix, as in trendy (BDNE1: 1970; OEDs:
1962).  Compare  pricey (OEDs: 1932).  Perhaps influenced by the use of
spend (OED: a1688) as a noun meaning "the action of spending money."
>The evidence which we have accumulated suggests that this term appears
especially in publications from the far-western portions of  the United
States and Canada.


From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Sun Nov 28 00:43:23 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 19:43:23 -0500
Subject: Pretty (was Hella good Thanksgiving!)
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.194323.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Pat wrote:
>Among Southeners of all ages and ethnic backgrounds, "pretty" is used for
>"very," but not for "very, very."   For "oikay," I've often heard, "so so"
>and "fair to middling."
>
I've always understood "pretty" to mean "sort of" or "leaning toward"
rather than "very." Someone "pretty ugly" (always love this one) is more
attractive than someone "really ugly." "Pretty good" is okay but not
excellent. It's how someone would rate a dish that was reasonably
palatable, but might not be ordered again.


From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Sun Nov 28 00:43:24 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 19:43:24 -0500
Subject: Hospital slang
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.194324.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Add to this GOMER--Get out of my emergency room

At 04:30 AM 11/27/99 EST, you wrote:
>     See Jerry Dunn's IDIOM SAVANT (1997), "Medical Workers," pages 3-16.
>Almost none of IDIOM's terms are duplicates with Gareth's posting!
>     The following acronyms have been circluating on the web (see deja.com)
>since 8-9-99, supposedly from the book WHY FIRE ENGINES ARE RED:
>
>MUH--messed up heart
>PBS--pretty bad shape
>PCL--pre-code looking
>HIBGIA--had it before, got it again
>CCFCCP--coo coo for Cocoa Puffs
>CATS--cut all to shit
>FDGB--fall down, go boom
>TBC--total body crunch
>     The following are "dead" synonyms:
>ART--assuming room temperature
>CC--cancel Christmas
>CTD--circling the drain
>DRT--dead right there
>NLPR--no long playing records
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 28 01:06:40 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:06:40 EST
Subject: Christopher Morley's KITTY FOYLE (1939)
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.200640.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     There was someone from Philadelphia on my last vacation (Mexico).  I
overheard her say something like:  "As we say in Philadelphia, 'First prize
is one week in Philadelphia, second prize is TWO weeks in Philadelphia.'"
     She hadn't read my posting, either!
     Christopher Morley wrote TRAVELS IN PHILADELPHIA (1919?).  I didn't see
the phrase there.
     Morley's novel about Philadelphia, KITTY FOYLE (1939), doesn't have it
in the 260 pages I read today in the library, but the novel is otherwise very
interesting:

Pg. 9:  Rum, Rheumatism and Rebellion.
Pg. 12:  B. U. was what he called Before _Us_.  He was wonderful at making up
a language of his own.  (Related to P. U.?--ed.)
Pg. 38:  As for the outskirts of Chicago, when we got there at last, I always
think of Wyn's description of them: "civilization with its pants down."
Pg. 48:  Scenery in the Midwest is like rouge on a colored girl; it means
well but it's kind of pathetic.  (I've heard "lipstick on a frog" used--ed.)
Pg. 51:  In Philly, Wyn and his crowd hardly even knew there _was_ a subway.
They rode the snobway instead; the suburban trains.
Pg. 74:  I'd hate to guess how many peanut-butter-and-jelly sandwiches we had
there, and the usual drink was a Chocolate Glass-A, a sort of chocolate soda
poured into shaved ice.  _Glace_ was the real name, but I didn't learn that
until long afterward.  (Gotta check OED for pb&j and glace--ed.)
Pg. 75:  I learned that way that "fortnight" is a Philadelphia sort of word,
not to be used on the prairie.
Pg. 88:  Sheep dip!
Pg. 140:  "Well, Kitty, give me the three steps of decency."  That's the
three steps you're supposed to go along with a friend who's leaving.
Pg. 141:  ...Backing up to the hairbrush is what Molly calls it when we sit
down for a Milkman's Matinee--which is coffee and cigarettes at midnight and
hair down all over the place.
Pg. 146:  White Collar Girls.
Pg. 166:  In the Know.
Pg. 176:  Hop a cab.
Pg. 228:  When they went home (Philadelphia friends leaving NYC--ed.) they
said "I wouldn't live there if you gave me the place."

     At last!  The second part of my posting of "It's a nice place to
visit..."  A NYC citation in 1939!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 28 03:53:01 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:53:01 EST
Subject: Ayto's 20th CENTURY WORDS; Safire; Amazon.com
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.225301.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THANKSGIVING

     I felt pretty sad this Thanksgiving.  Maybe it was Ric Burns.  Maybe it
was William Safire.  Maybe it was Hillary Clinton.  Hillary (who treats
terrorists better than me!) declared, "Yes, I intend to run...I've got a lot
of things to do before the official announcement.  I haven't stopped
listening."
    We'll start off with a "Thanksgiving" book review.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TWENTIETH CENTURY WORDS:
THE STORY OF THE NEW WORDS IN ENGLISH OVER THE LAST HUNDRED YEARS
by John Ayto
626 pages hardcover, 18.99 pounds (list price)
Oxford University Press, 1999

    Jesse Sheidlower should strangle this guy!  No, murder is too good. Some
kind of torture, surely.
    John Ayto's name is not on the cover!  OXFORD is on the cover!  OED must
share in the blame!  Read the front flap:

The Oxford World Reading Programme
The Oxford Special Subject Advisors
The Oxford Bank of New Words
The British National Corpus
OWLS The Oxford Word & Language Service

     Now look at that subtitle again:  THE STORY OF THE NEW WORDS IN ENGLISH
OVER THE LAST HUNDRED YEARS.
     When you think about new words over the last hundred years, what do you
think of?  Think hard!  All together now!
     If you're like me, you think of the American Dialect Society, you think
of its publication AMERICAN SPEECH, and you think of a continuing feature in
that publication called "Among the New Words."
     Somewhere in the introduction, surely, Ayto's gonna mention "Among the
New Words."  He never mentions Among the New Words!  NEVER!  Not a nod!  Not
a wink!  Nothing!
      Jesse should be getting out some instrument of torture right now.  We
continue.
      On the back flap to Ayto's previous book on slang, he mentioned "lounge
lizard."  My antedate right here on ADS-L was never mentioned.  For this
book, the back flap mentions "supermodel," which he cites from 1977.  I dated
that term right here on ADS-L to Naomi Sims's VOGUE article in 1972.
       Maybe Jesse should force Ayto to watch the six-part episode of NEW
YORK.  That would be cruel enough.  We continue.
       "Jazz" is one of the most famous of 20th century words.  We'll get
right to it.

Pg. 89:  JAZZ n (1913)...(see _jazz (1909)_).
Pg. 28:  JAZZ n. (1909) a type of ragtime dance. ... 1909 C Stewart: One lady
asked me if I dance the jazz.

      What is "C. Stewart"?  A book?  A record?  Well, David Shulman
researched this citation and wrote about it fifteen years ago!  This is from
the RANDOM HOUSE HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG H-O, pg. 259:  "The
citation erroneously dated '1909' in OED2 was not in fact recorded until
1919; see D. Shulman, 'The Earliest Citation of _Jazz_,' _Comments on Ety._
XVI (Dec. 1, 1986), pp. 2-6."
      David Shulman personally received notice from the OED that the 1909
citation (from the Peter Tamony files) was made in error and would be removed.
      To get all this stuff wrong, Ayto would have to:  (1) not read the OED
files, (2) not read the RHHDAS, (3) not read Comments on Etymology, (4) not
read Gerald Cohen's STUDIES IN SLANG, (5) not read AMERICAN SPEECH,and (6)
not read ADS-L.
     William Safire will probably mention this book in his upcoming "Gifts of
Gab."  I'm sure he'll say that it's a wonderful stocking-stuffer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
WILLIAM SAFIRE

     Last week, William Safire used a 1959 citation for "Gentleman's C," and
said that whoever beat it would get a helluva "grade from me."  Over two
weeks ago, I posted here a citation that beats his by over half a century.
     I checked today (Sunday's NYT Magazine arrives on Saturday).  There was
no correction!
     What kind of a teacher issues a grade, then withholds it from the
student and his transcript forever?  I do this work for free--why not throw
me a crumb?  Hey, it's Thanksgiving!
      A CRUMB!!!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
AMAZON.COM

     There was an opinion in the NY Daily News, Friday, 26 November 1999, pg.
59, cols. 2-3:  "City is learning to love its history" by Ric Burns (subhead:
"A newfound interest in a glorious past").
     I need a strong curse for this guy.  "May you marry Hillary Rodham
Clinton and move to Arkansas!"  There, now.  I haven't felt this good since I
cursed the New York Yankees franchise.
     I got on Amazon.com, wrote a review of Ric Burns's NEW YORK titled
"Serious Errors & Omissions," briefly mentioned that the book left out "the
Big Apple" and screwed up "Gotham," and waited the five days for my review to
appear.
    When it didn't appear, I wrote another review and also wrote to Amazon
about it.  Then, both reviews appeared together!
     There is a new feature on Amazon where you can vote (anonymously) if the
review has been helpful or harmful.
     As Thanksgiving began, 2 people liked the reviews and 59 people hated
them.  This was more votes than for the other three reviews of the book
COMBINED.  Not only was it bad, but, as far as I could tell, THIS WAS THE
WORST VOTE IN THE HISTORY OF THE NEW AMAZON.COM VOTING SYSTEM!
     Amazon.com finally took off the duplicate review, I wrote a really neat
personal page that people might actually read now, and the negative votes
seemed to have stopped.  One reviewer picked up on my "omissions" theme and
noted that NEW YORK gave scant mention of New York's universities, hospitals,
and sports.
      Still, it was Thanksgiving, and I did all this for New York City, and
not only did Ric Burns never respond, but people HATED me!
      I recently reviewed Jesse Sheidlower's word-a-day book, where I
mentioned that he left Random House for Oxford.  If there's a huge negative
vote for that review, maybe I'll jump off a building before Christmas.


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Sun Nov 28 06:02:05 1999
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:02:05 -0800
Subject: spendy
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.220205.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: <AAllan at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 1999 10:28 AM
Subject: spendy


> It's not in the dictionary; but people in Washington State, and Oregon,
and
> Idaho, and Montana, and maybe Minnesota know what "spendy" means =
expensive.
> Examples:
>
>    Faribault County, Minnesota: "I voted for Arne Carlson because he is a
> good businessman and reigned in our spendy legislature for two terms and
> turned up a surplus."
>    Boise, Idaho: "Kempthorne Plan May Be Too Spendy, Some Critics Say."
>    Seattle: "Ferry Ramp Proves Spendy Folly."
>    Portland, Oregon: "Parking Overtime in Portland Gets Spendy."
>
> Is that the right limit of distribution? Anybody speak of "spendy" in the
> south or east?

I don't know about Minnesota, never having been there, but "spendy" is a
perfectly good word out here, as in "I bought this coat, even though I know
it's a spendy item".  It seems to be a relatively recent innovation.  AT
least I've only heard "spendy" used this way recently.
Anne Gilbert


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sun Nov 28 05:17:49 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 00:17:49 -0500
Subject: intransitive "making"
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.001749.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've never heard "spendy", but twice this week I've heard the following from
members of the same family (they're from North Carolina and Georgia):

The coffee is making.

(i.e., the coffee is brewing)

Is this an intrafamily usage, or is this widespread/regional?

Lynne


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sun Nov 28 07:54:56 1999
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:54:56 -0800
Subject: intransitive "making"
In-Reply-To: <01JIUNL475OIB0ZHQB@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.235456.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, this sounds like a special usage for some verbs like bake:

(1) The cookies are baking.

I don't remember what this is called, but I think it's an intransitive usage
of certain transitive verbs.

To me, at least, this sentence does *not* seem intransitive, it seems closer
to being a transformation of

(2) The cookies are being baked.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

------Original Message-----
-From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
-Behalf Of M. Lynne Murphy
-
-I've never heard "spendy", but twice this week I've heard the
-following from
-members of the same family (they're from North Carolina and Georgia):
-
-The coffee is making.
-
-(i.e., the coffee is brewing)
-
-Is this an intrafamily usage, or is this widespread/regional?
-
-Lynne


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sun Nov 28 07:15:48 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 02:15:48 -0500
Subject: intransitive "making"
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.021548.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----------
>From: Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>

>FWIW, this sounds like a special usage for some verbs like bake:
>
>(1) The cookies are baking.
>
>I don't remember what this is called, but I think it's an intransitive usage
>of certain transitive verbs.
>
>To me, at least, this sentence does *not* seem intransitive, it seems closer
>to being a transformation of
>
>(2) The cookies are being baked.


That doesn't mean it's not intransitive.  There's no object, so it's
intransitive.  What is true is that the subject has the patient role that
the object would "usually" have. This happens with other verbs as well:

Bake the cookies.  The cookies baked.
Melt the ice.  The ice melted.

(Would we call them ergative uses of the verbs?  That word always troubles
me, since I'm more used to hearing about ergative languages, rather than
ergative verbs.  And since the subject is nominatively case-marked...)

"The coffee is making" is different from these in that it seems my friends
would not say "The coffee made" as in "The coffee made while we were
clearing the table."  My hypothesis is that this comes from "coffeemaker",
since (a) the words are in the same order and same relation there (patient +
(nominalized) verb) and (b) the lack of a sentient agent when the
coffeemaker is making the coffee.  My friends say "the coffee is making"
after they do the work to make the coffee and are waiting for the
coffeemaker to do its work.

Incidentally, this family also uses "shoot" to mean "give a shot to" in the
context of "It's time to shoot the (diabetic) cat."  They're the 2nd family
I've met who have a diabetic cat and use "shoot" this way.  So, maybe it's
[diabetic-cat]-owner jargon.

Lynne, who's been taking notes at dinner parties


From brian at ILCH.UMINHO.PT  Sun Nov 28 09:03:31 1999
From: brian at ILCH.UMINHO.PT (Brian F. Head)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 09:03:31 GMT
Subject: "Plus =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E7a?= change,
 ...The more things change,..."
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.090331.GMT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ron Butter´s query regarding "The more things change, ..." has led me to recall
that French, not English, was the first time I read such a statement. Now if I
can only recall, or track down, the king, writer, who(m)ever, I´ll sent the
name, date and occasion, when possible.  Brian


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov 28 13:03:20 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:03:20 -0500
Subject: spendy
In-Reply-To: <00dd01bf3966$19d37880$66709cd1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.080320.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Anne,

I'm sure your family knows where "out here" is, but the rest of us don't.

dInIs (up here in MI)

>----- Original Message -----
>From: <AAllan at AOL.COM>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Saturday, November 27, 1999 10:28 AM
>Subject: spendy
>
>
>> It's not in the dictionary; but people in Washington State, and Oregon,
>and
>> Idaho, and Montana, and maybe Minnesota know what "spendy" means =
>expensive.
>> Examples:
>>
>>    Faribault County, Minnesota: "I voted for Arne Carlson because he is a
>> good businessman and reigned in our spendy legislature for two terms and
>> turned up a surplus."
>>    Boise, Idaho: "Kempthorne Plan May Be Too Spendy, Some Critics Say."
>>    Seattle: "Ferry Ramp Proves Spendy Folly."
>>    Portland, Oregon: "Parking Overtime in Portland Gets Spendy."
>>
>> Is that the right limit of distribution? Anybody speak of "spendy" in the
>> south or east?
>
>I don't know about Minnesota, never having been there, but "spendy" is a
>perfectly good word out here, as in "I bought this coat, even though I know
>it's a spendy item".  It seems to be a relatively recent innovation.  AT
>least I've only heard "spendy" used this way recently.
>Anne Gilbert


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov 28 13:12:37 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:12:37 -0500
Subject: intransitive "making"
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLADGECHFGAAAKHDNCEAGCKAA.gogaku@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.081237.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Benjamin,

You are looking for the word "ergative."

We baked the cookies in the oven.
The cookies baked in the oven.

As opposed to "real" transitives:

We ate the cookies in the kitchen.
*The cookies ate in the theater.

Note, however, that ergatives and transitives can both passivize, that
operation sometimes falsely suggested as a test for transitives.

So, if you reclassify (by analogy) "make" as an ergative (on the model of
"bake"), you've got it made.

dInIs





>FWIW, this sounds like a special usage for some verbs like bake:
>
>(1) The cookies are baking.
>
>I don't remember what this is called, but I think it's an intransitive usage
>of certain transitive verbs.
>
>To me, at least, this sentence does *not* seem intransitive, it seems closer
>to being a transformation of
>
>(2) The cookies are being baked.
>
>Benjamin Barrett
>gogaku at ix.netcom.com
>
>------Original Message-----
>-From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
>-Behalf Of M. Lynne Murphy
>-
>-I've never heard "spendy", but twice this week I've heard the
>-following from
>-members of the same family (they're from North Carolina and Georgia):
>-
>-The coffee is making.
>-
>-(i.e., the coffee is brewing)
>-
>-Is this an intrafamily usage, or is this widespread/regional?
>-
>-Lynne


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov 28 13:51:47 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:51:47 -0500
Subject: Ayto's 20th CENTURY WORDS; Safire; Amazon.com
In-Reply-To: <0.ad10b43c.2572011d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.085147.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>       To get all this stuff wrong, Ayto would have to:  (1) not read the OED
> files, (2) not read the RHHDAS, (3) not read Comments on Etymology, (4) not
> read Gerald Cohen's STUDIES IN SLANG, (5) not read AMERICAN SPEECH,and (6)
> not read ADS-L.

I have been working intensively with Ayto's book for the last few weeks,
and it appears that for the most part he relied on the published volumes
of the OED and the OED Addition Series, rather than on the OED files.
There are many instances where I have sent the OED earlier evidence than
what Ayto cites as his dating.  He probably drew on the OED files only for
recent words not in OED or OEDAS.

I find Ayto's book to be pretty good, but its two major shortcomings are
(1) failure to provide cutting-edge information for datings, and (2) an
excessive British emphasis.  By "British emphasis" I mean not only a bias
toward Briticisms in coverage of vocabulary, but also a tone in the
commentaries that is meant to poke fun at pretentiousness and hypocrisy,
but that will strike Americans as arch.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov 28 14:50:57 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:50:57 -0400
Subject: Pretty (was Hella good Thanksgiving!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19991127194204.006b07e4@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.105057.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:43 PM -0500 11/27/99, Stephanie Hysmith wrote:
>Pat wrote:
>>Among Southeners of all ages and ethnic backgrounds, "pretty" is used for
>>"very," but not for "very, very."   For "oikay," I've often heard, "so so"
>>and "fair to middling."
>>
>I've always understood "pretty" to mean "sort of" or "leaning toward"
>rather than "very." Someone "pretty ugly" (always love this one) is more
>attractive than someone "really ugly." "Pretty good" is okay but not
>excellent. It's how someone would rate a dish that was reasonably
>palatable, but might not be ordered again.

same for me; and for additional evidence:

That was pretty good--in fact it was VERY good
#That was very good--in fact is was PRETTY good

Was it pretty good?
Not only was it pretty good:  it was VERY good.

Was it very good?
#Not only was it very good:  it was PRETTY good.

Larry


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 28 16:02:10 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:02:10 EST
Subject: You've got mail (North Carolina)
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.110210.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are some distinctive vowels in the AOL announcements. Typical of New
Bern, North Carolina? Here are two relevant news items. - Allan Metcalf


  America Online Inc. extended its relationship with Elwood Edwards, the man
whose voice tells AOL e-mail users "You've got mail," to include his
greetings on AOL 5.0. . . .
   In a press release Friday, America Online said it will use Edwards' voice
for new features including "You've Got Pictures," a service for members to
send pictures online. . . .
   Edwards' recorded AOL phrases also include "Welcome," "File's Done" and
"Goodbye."
-Emily Park; Dow Jones Newswires 11/26/1999

   A North Carolina native whose voice is a popular feature on America Online
is uttering his famous phrase in movie theaters nationwide. Elwood Edwards, a
New Bern native who says "You've got mail" on AOL and in the movie of the
same name, became the online service's mail greeter in 1989. His wife, Karen,
was a customer service representative for the Internet provider at the time an
d Edwards volunteered.
   -Greensboro News & Record 01/07/1999 (Northern Light summary)


From stephen.harper at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Sun Nov 28 16:12:13 1999
From: stephen.harper at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Stephen Harper)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:12:13 -0500
Subject: something's IN THE DETAILS
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.111213.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My wife came downstairs yesterday morning saying a fragment of a phrase was running through her mind which ended "in the details."  I think the expression is "The Devil is in the details," but I have not been able to find it documented anywhere.

Is anyone familiar with it?

Thanks,
Steve
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov 28 16:01:39 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 12:01:39 -0400
Subject: intransitive "making"
In-Reply-To: <l03130302b466d991e07d@[35.9.48.140]>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.120139.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another take on this:  the distinction made in Relational Grammar since
David Perlmutter's Berkeley Linguistics Society article in 1978 is that
there are two classes of intransitive verbs, those like "smoke" or "eat"
that have an underlying subject (corresponding to the subject of the
corresponding transitive, if any) and those like "sink" or "melt" or
"arrive" that have an underlying object (corresponding to the object of the
corresponding transitive, if any).  The former class is called
"unergative", the latter "unaccusative".  In the case of an unaccusative
intransitive, the object becomes a subject (sort of like what happens with
passives, but here there's no agent to 'demote').  Notice that some of
these alternate with transitives, in which the object remains object (We
baked the cookies, The cookies baked), while other unaccusatives don't
alternate (My relatives arrived early).  Additional evidence for the
"unaccusative hypothesis" comes from a variety of languages; where there's
a correlation (although an imperfect one) with auxiliary choice and
ne-clitic formation in Italian, impersonal passives in German and Dutch,
subject case marking in Lakhota, and so on.  Within GB (and its
descendants), i.e. whatever theory Chomsky and his colleagues and students
have practiced, Burzio proposed an analogue of Perlmutter's unaccusative
hypothesis in his 1981 thesis, only he labeled the underlying-object class
"ergative verbs" rather than unaccusatives.  The problem here is that the
relevant argument of such verbs in ergative languages (e.g. "the cookies"
in "The cookies baked in the oven" and "He baked the cookies in the oven")
is the one NOT in the ergative case (which is assigned to the transitive
subject, i.e. the baker); rather it's in the so-called absolutive.  Burzio
also confusingly restricted the notion of "intransitive verb" to the
non-ergatives, so "arrive" for him is not intransitive.  So most linguists
who work on these things, even those (like Beth Levin and Jane Grimshaw)
who don't adopt the Relational Grammar framework, have adopted the
"unaccusative" label for verbs (and clauses) like the ones discussed in
this thread.  From Lynne's evidence, "make" can now (like "brew" and
"bake") be used as an unaccusative, i.e. in intransitive clauses with an
underlying object and no underlying subject.  (Notice that many
intransitives, like "cook" and "bake", can be either unergative OR
unaccusative:  "My uncle is cooking" can be one or the other depending on
whether he's serving as the preparer of the meal or as the preparation.
        One more point:  These unaccusative clauses are crucially
non-agentive on every level of analysis--the boat can sink without anyone
sinking it, and even cookies can bake on their own (in the sun); they
contrast with yet another construction involving a non-agent subject where
there is an agent present in conceptual structure but not in the grammar:

        The book is selling like hotcakes.
        The meat cuts like butter.
        The door opens with a skeleton key.
        Shakespeare translates easily.
        You bruise easily.
        the soup that eats like a meal

These have recently been called (probably misleadingly) "middles" and are
not distinguishable from unaccusatives, even when the same lexical verb is
involved, by a variety of tests, perhaps the simplest being that there is
always an understood agent in these.  (Compare "The door opens with a
skeleton key" [agent understood] vs. "The door opened" [no agent].)
Middles (unlike accusatives) are also much easier to get with adverbs.

larry

At 8:12 AM -0500 11/28/99, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>Benjamin,
>
>You are looking for the word "ergative."
>
>We baked the cookies in the oven.
>The cookies baked in the oven.
>
>As opposed to "real" transitives:
>
>We ate the cookies in the kitchen.
>*The cookies ate in the theater.
>
>Note, however, that ergatives and transitives can both passivize, that
>operation sometimes falsely suggested as a test for transitives.
>
>So, if you reclassify (by analogy) "make" as an ergative (on the model of
>"bake"), you've got it made.
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
>
>
>>FWIW, this sounds like a special usage for some verbs like bake:
>>
>>(1) The cookies are baking.
>>
>>I don't remember what this is called, but I think it's an intransitive usage
>>of certain transitive verbs.
>>
>>To me, at least, this sentence does *not* seem intransitive, it seems closer
>>to being a transformation of
>>
>>(2) The cookies are being baked.
>>
>>Benjamin Barrett
>>gogaku at ix.netcom.com
>>
>>------Original Message-----
>>-From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
>>-Behalf Of M. Lynne Murphy
>>-
>>-I've never heard "spendy", but twice this week I've heard the
>>-following from
>>-members of the same family (they're from North Carolina and Georgia):
>>-
>>-The coffee is making.
>>-
>>-(i.e., the coffee is brewing)
>>-
>>-Is this an intrafamily usage, or is this widespread/regional?
>>-
>>-Lynne
>
>
>Dennis R. Preston
>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
>preston at pilot.msu.edu
>Office: (517)353-0740
>Fax: (517)432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 28 20:06:59 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:06:59 EST
Subject: The Big Olive
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.150659.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     From the Associated Press, 24 November 1999:

_Giant martini planned for New Year's celebration in San Francisco_
     SAN FRANCISCO (AP)--With a seven-story giant martini glass in the works for a New Year's celebration, San Francisco may have a new nickname: The Big Olive.
     Marketers at the Westin St. Francis hotel say the martini glass, which will feature a 10-foot-long olive sliding down a giant swizzle stick at the stroke of midnight, may make a new city landmark.
     "Our intent is to promote the West Coast," said Marsha Monro, marketing director at the Westin St. Francis.  "If New York can be known as the Big Apple, why can't we be called the Big Olive?"
     The olive is set to drop into the giant, inflatable, blue martini glass at Union Square, amid a fireworks display.  Monro said construction of the martini will begin two weeks before New Year's.
     Legend has it, the drink was created just a few miles from the city, in Martinez, a town northeast of San Francisco.  Locals say a gold miner stepped into a Martinez bar 150 years ago and asked the bartender to shake up something special.  The result became known as the Martinez, and later the Martini.  Others say Martini and Rossi distillers invented the drink.

    Somebody has got to tell this pronto to Ric Burns!  How can he possibly leave this off of his next great documentary, SAN FRANCISCO?


From jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU  Sun Nov 28 20:20:49 1999
From: jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU (Jeutonne P. Brewer)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:20:49 -0500
Subject: intransitive "making"
In-Reply-To: <01JIUNL475OIB0ZHQB@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.152049.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This statement is familiar to me. It isn't just an intrafamily
expression. I live in North Carolina, but I grew up in Oklahoma
and Texas.

Jeutonne Brewer


On Sun, 28 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:

> I've never heard "spendy", but twice this week I've heard the following from
> members of the same family (they're from North Carolina and Georgia):
>
> The coffee is making.
>
> (i.e., the coffee is brewing)
>
> Is this an intrafamily usage, or is this widespread/regional?
>
> Lynne
>


From jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU  Sun Nov 28 20:24:15 1999
From: jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU (Jeutonne P. Brewer)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:24:15 -0500
Subject: intransitive "making"
In-Reply-To: <01JIURQNK2S2B22PPJ@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.152415.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The bread is making [in the bread making machine]
also seems all right to me.

Jeutonne Brewer


From MILLERJ at FRANKLINCOLL.EDU  Sun Nov 28 20:46:49 1999
From: MILLERJ at FRANKLINCOLL.EDU (Miller, Jerry)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:46:49 -0500
Subject: something's IN THE DETAILS
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.154649.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Steve: I'm familiar with two different and opposing sayings (unfortunately,
I don't really know the origins of either). "The Devil is in the details"
I've heard quite often, but I've also heard (and used) "God hides in the
details," which is quite useful in the teaching of writing, obviously. Where
these originated I have no idea, but they are interesting in their
opposition (or can both God and the Devil hide out in the same place?). Like
you, I am curious as to their origins and how one presumably transformed
into the other (and in which order) at some point in time.

Jerry Miller


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Harper [SMTP:stephen.harper at WORLDNET.ATT.NET]
> Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 11:12 AM
> To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject:      something's IN THE DETAILS
>
> My wife came downstairs yesterday morning saying a fragment of a phrase
> was running through her mind which ended "in the details."  I think the
> expression is "The Devil is in the details," but I have not been able to
> find it documented anywhere.
>
> Is anyone familiar with it?
>
> Thanks,
> Steve


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 28 21:23:20 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:23:20 EST
Subject: Bouldering & Buildering
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.162320.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     Everest is all over the place lately.  The IMAX Everest movie was shown on tv.  A George Mallory biography was excerpted in today's Sunday NY Post.
    I've been reading HIGH EXPOSURE by David Breashears (who filmed the IMAX movie).  He briefly explains two terms:  bouldering and buildering.
    The OED has "bouldering" from 1920.
    I'm having difficulty with "buildering."  I looked in the OED, OED Additions, Barnhart's, and 50 Years of Among the New Words.  Maybe I just missed it.

7 November 1977, NEWSWEEK, "Trade-Center Stunts," pg. 18, col. 1:  Moreover, their successful feats have given rise to an increasingly popular sport known as "buildering," in which city-dwelling adventurers pit their skills against man-made structures.

3 May 1978, WASHINGTON POST, "Scaling Concrete Heights: There's an 'Outlaw Appeal' to the Growing Sport of Buildering," pg. D1, col. 1:

     Buildering, or the art of climbing buildings is a little-known sport that has been given greater public notice by climbs like Joseph Healy's ascent of Chicago's Sears Tower on Monday and George Willig's conquering of the World Trade Center last May. (...)
     The name comes from bouldering, a form of practice-climbing done on small rocks that can be jumped or fallen off without serious bodily harm.  One of the first printed references to buildering is in a 1930s volume called "The Night Climbers of Cambridge," detailing how devil-amy-care undergraduate curfew-breakers took to climbing buildings to get back into the college after the administration had made fences too horid to attempt.


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Sun Nov 28 21:43:43 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:43:43 -0500
Subject: Pretty Good
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.164343.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

There's an element to "pretty" that strikes me as a way of indicating that something
is sufficient for the purpose at hand, though not necessarily ideal, perfect or
total. This, to me is separate from pretty as a middling superlative.

Pretty ugly, then, might be saying "ugly enough to notice."

Pretty fair might be "sufficiently fair as to not cause debate."

Pretty tired might be "tired enough to take into account."


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Sun Nov 28 22:13:03 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:13:03 -0500
Subject: Off-Topic: Buildering
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.171303.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

In October of 1994 I was working on Park Avenue a block south of Grand Central in
one of Manhattan's many mirrored glass buildings (the kind that look great in the
architectural sketches but are completely bland in the cityscape).

So I'm sitting there by the window on the twenty-first floor, 11 in the morning,
thinking about lunch and some network problem, and a hand appears on the window sill on
the other side of the glass. A tight, bony, sinewy, thin, chalky hand. Before I could
really do anything, a long-haired man in purplish shorts and a white tank top
climbed up past the window, not looking in, to the next floor. He wore fingerless gloves
and carried thin rope and various gear.

My coworkers, of course, didn't believe me at first, but there were chalky
handprints on the outside sill for proof, and cops roped of the street below to protect
gawking passers-by from the possibility of a falling Frenchman (as he later turned out to
be).

A caption from Lexis Nexis at the time "A police officer (top) waits as French
mountain climber Alain Robert scales the side of 101 Park Ave. in Manhattan yesterday.
Robert, 42, was arrested on the roof of the 48-story building and held on a variety of
charges."

Robert, known as Spiderman. has lately become more active in buildering, including
climbing the Sears Tower in August and being rescued on a building in Paris in
September after suffering heat exhaustion. These are on top of the other 30 structures he
has scaled, including the Eiffel Tower and the Petronis Towers in Malaysia, the world's
tallest structure.


From s-mufwene at UCHICAGO.EDU  Mon Nov 29 02:54:27 1999
From: s-mufwene at UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko S. Mufwene)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:54:27 -0600
Subject: Wah-Wah-Wes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.991128151805.20410A-100000@hamlet.uncg.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.205427.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Just about 40 minutes ago, my daughter (11 years old) asked me why
"dam!" is treated as a cuss/curse word. After all, she said, beavers build
dams and nobody is offended by such a construction. I replied that the cuss
word is not really the same "dam" as in beavers building dams. First I
related it the interjection to "darned" and then corrected myself, relating
it to "damned" (< French "damner"). It occurred to me that for those who
say "dam!", there may be no trace of the etymological final consonant
cluster simplification that has taken place here.

    How is this all related to my subject heading? Tazie (my daughter) had
just bought a CD which she was impatient to play. The title of one of the
songs is "Wild, Wild West" but I swear all I heard was "wah-wah-wes"
[wa:wa:wes]. So Tazie said, "Daddy, the song would not be the same if one
tried to pronounce that sequence correctly."

    Just a hasty take on interesting linguistic observations from
[sa:say(d)] Chicago.

Sali.


*******************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
*******************************************************


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Mon Nov 29 05:18:14 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:18:14 -0500
Subject: Wah-Wah-Wes
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.001814.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Sunday, November 28, 1999, Salikoko S. Mufwene <s-mufwene at UCHICAGO.EDU> wrote:

>songs is "Wild, Wild West" but I swear all I heard was "wah-wah-wes"
>[wa:wa:wes]. So Tazie said, "Daddy, the song would not be the same if one
>tried to pronounce that sequence correctly."

My take on the pronunciation has glottal stops ending the Wild Wild, though maybe
not. It's hard to tell; that song's been strained through so much signal processing
there ain't much original left.

This particularly bit--"Wah-Wah-Wes"--was repopularized this summer via the flop
movie "Wild Wild West," and is a chorus sampled or borrowed from a song that was big in
the Eighties. I dunno who sang it, but some of the lyrics:

Guns
We don't like to use them
Unless
Our enemies choose them.
We prefer
To fight you all like a man
And beat you down
With our hands
In the Wild Wild West.

And your daughter's right in both cases.


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Mon Nov 29 04:31:03 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:31:03 -0500
Subject: Wah-Wah-Wes
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.233103.0500.>

Grant Barrett wrote:
This particularly bit--"Wah-Wah-Wes"--was repopularized this summer via the flop

> movie "Wild Wild West," and is a chorus sampled or borrowed from a song that was big in
> the Eighties. I dunno who sang it, but some of the lyrics:
>
> Guns
> We don't like to use them
> Unless
> Our enemies choose them.
> We prefer
> To fight you all like a man
> And beat you down
> With our hands
> In the Wild Wild West.

The band was Escape Club and thanks A LOT for getting that stupid song going over and over
in my head!

AIGH!  UGH!  ACK!
Lynne

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 29 05:48:17 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:48:17 EST
Subject: Amazon.com; Hummos, Tequila, Rush hour
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.004817.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HUMMOS, TEQUILA (continued), RUSH HOUR

    A bunch of random stuff.

HUMMOS:  OED has this from 1955.  This is from STRANGE LANDS AND FRIENDLY
PEOPLE (1951) by William O. Douglas, pg. 198:  _Hummos bithiini_ (Chick peas
with sesame.  Chick peas mashed and mixed with _hummos_ which is diluted and
mixed with olive oil, lemons,  and parsley).

TEQUILA:  OED has a 1965 book cite for "tequila sunrise" and 1966 for
"tequila sour."  The HOUSE & GARDEN, September 1965, pg. 218, "Mexican
drinks," has "Mexican boilermaker" (beer and tequila) in column 3.  Continued
on page 230, col. 2 is Margarita, Tequila Sour, Tequila Sunrise, Tequila
Daisy, Taxco Fizz, (col. 3) Tequila Cocktail, Pina Borracha, Por Mi Amante,
Aztec Punch, (Pg. 231, col. 1) Mexicano Cocktail, Coctel Veracruzana, Pancho
Villa Cocktail, Rompope (or Ronpope), (col. 2) Kahlua, Black Russian, Picador
Cocktail, Kahlua Toreador, Mexican Grasshopper, Xochimilco.

RUSH HOUR:  OED has 1898 (England), then 1907 (US).  This (until I can do
better with the Brooklyn Bridge) is from LEES AND LEAVEN (1903) by Edward W.
Townsend, pg. 155:  The rush hour on the Brooklyn Bridge had not yet begun...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
AMAZON.COM (continued)

     I've been the least bit curious that 31 people on Amazon.com would vote
on my NEW YORK review--AND NOT ONE PERSON WOULD CONTACT ME ABOUT IT!
     And I'd constantly check.  Home page there!  E-mail address right there,
available for clicking!
     I went to the NYU Bobst Library today.  I went to Amazon.com, went to
Ric Burns's NEW YORK, went to my review, and clicked on my name.  It said
that I didn't have a member page set up.
     I went home, went to Amazon.com, went to Ric Burns's NEW YORK, went to
my review, and clicked on my name.  My home page is there!
     This is not a joke anymore.
     It's Amazon.com censorship.
     It's news.
-------------- next part --------------
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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 14:30:33 -0800 (PST)
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From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Mon Nov 29 15:40:21 1999
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:40:21 -0600
Subject: intransitive "making"
In-Reply-To: <01JIUNL475OIB0ZHQB@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.094021.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE has a few other examples at make v. C4.


At 12:17 AM 11/28/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>I've never heard "spendy", but twice this week I've heard the following from
>members of the same family (they're from North Carolina and Georgia):
>
>The coffee is making.
>
>(i.e., the coffee is brewing)
>
>Is this an intrafamily usage, or is this widespread/regional?
>
>Lynne
>


From pds at VISI.COM  Mon Nov 29 16:48:29 1999
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:48:29 -0600
Subject: Meme Identification
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.104829.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 11/23/1999 Grant Barrett wrote:
...
>It's the simple identification of a phrase that the author, writing in a
casual
>context, knows has joined the current Internet discussion memes. This is
often done
>simply via capitalization, but also by the adding of the suffix of TM or (tm)
...
>"Good Thing (tm)" is one. I believe it originates from Marth Stewart.
Another is
>"They Just Don't Get It (tm)." Below are two citations of many.

Our daughter took the Pooh books with her when she moved out, but I'm sure
A A Milne used "Good Thing" and other capitalized expressions of that ilk.
His intent, I believe, was to satirize grown-ups who use hackneyed
expressions with pompous gravity.  My take on the current practice is that
writers, by these marks, acknowledge the use of a hackneyed expression even
as they use it.  This used to be done with "scare quotes"; but we've all
had those drummed out us, haven't we.

Digression:  Lacking formal training, I'm used to looking up the terms of
the linguist's art I encounter on this list -- in particular, the panoply
of -eme words.  I thought "meme" was just another.  But I was wrong.  It is
a term of another discipline (if you will allow mimetics to be called
that).  Anyway, I found that "meme" was not in the hard copy of RHWUD,
although it is in the CD version, even though the dating is from 1976.   My
question to Grant (or anyone else) is:  What do we say about "Good Thing"
by calling it a meme, that we don't say by calling it hackneyed?  If this
is too far off-topic, feel free to reply to me directly.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From krahnke at LAMAR.ACNS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Mon Nov 29 17:26:50 1999
From: krahnke at LAMAR.ACNS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Karl Krahnke)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:26:50 -0700
Subject: Snickerdoodle - from the past
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.102650.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The following message appeared on our department mail system today.

Mountain West area ....

******

My kids are selling frozen ccokie dough as a fund raiser for their
school.
 It's $10 for 3 lbs, and comes in snickerdoodle, chocolate chip, oatmeal

raisin, and peanut butter.  It's Mary's Mountain Cookies, so it's
tasty.  ...


From conversa at IAC.NET  Mon Nov 29 18:43:30 1999
From: conversa at IAC.NET (Conversa)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:43:30 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.991126091842.12450A-100000@socrates>
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.134330.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

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From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM  Mon Nov 29 19:15:59 1999
From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Enid Pearsons)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:15:59 -0500
Subject: Meme Identification
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.141559.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In answer to Tom Kysilko, who wrote:

>>Anyway, I found that "meme" was not in the hard copy of RHWUD,
although it is in the CD version, even though the dating is from 1976. <<

It's in the Addenda Section, in the front of the book, unless you have a
really early printing.


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov 29 23:52:00 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:52:00 -0500
Subject: pizzeria
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.185200.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dale Coye <Dfcoye at AOL.COM> asked

>>>
In Spike Lee's Do the Right Thing   Sal, the owner of a pizzeria, pronounces
it as if it were  pizz ur EE uh-  Does anyone know if this is common in NYC
or among Italian-Americans elsewhere?
<<<

Robert Kelly <kelly at BARD.EDU> replied:

>>>
I grew up in a little Sicily in Brooklyn, and never heard it otherwise
than [pitz at r'i@] by Italo-Americans, i.e. pitz-ur-EE-uh.  Of course
Italians said it with different vowels, but the same stress.  How else is
it said?  RK
<<<

I grew up in NYC, mid-fifties to mid-sixties. It was always
     pizza         'pi:ts@
     pizzeria      ,pi:ts@'ri:@
("@" = schwa)

I assume you're using "zz" (DC) and "tz" (RK) for [ts], since I've *never* heard
[z] (or [z:]) or [tz] in these words, unless possibly from a non-English-speaker
who'd never heard them pronounced by a native.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 30 00:02:56 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:02:56 -0500
Subject: "hybread"
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.190256.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:

>>>
At 6:57 PM -0500 11/21/99, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    [...]
>   The Atlanta Journal and Constitution (1997) and the Des Moines Register
>(1998) also show restaurants that serve "pitza," but "pitza" appears to
>come straight outta Brooklyn.

What's interesting is that this is a vacuous blend in the spoken language,
given the homophony of "pitza" and "pizza".  At least "hybread" is a real,
God-fearing blend phonologically as well as orthographically.
<<<

What's also odd about "hybread" is that I've heard "hybrid" pronounced that way,
/'haI.brEd/, by different (and diverse) people in a number of places over a long
span of years. My guess is that it's from a folk etymology, as if "high-bred",
trying to analyze an opaque expression by recruiting the past participle of
"breed" (as in "cross-breed").

-- Mark


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 30 00:11:29 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:11:29 -0500
Subject: honkin'
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.191129.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Grant Barrett <gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG> extracts the following from the
archive:

>>>
On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Jesse T Sheidlower wrote:

  Not entirely sure; it depends on how accurate the
  transcription is. "Hella-" is an intensive prefix like
  "mega-," that has been in use at least since the late
  '80s. I've never heard "hawkin'" before, but I have
  (rarely) encounted "honkin'" meaning roughly "exciting;
  jammin', etc." Perhaps these are different realizations
  of the same word.
<<<

My son, age 18, has been using "honkin'" for at least a couple of years as a
general intensifier, as in "a honkin' big [whatever]". I'll ask him to
explicate. We live in Framingham, west of Boston, which has been his home from
ca. age 2 until heading off to college this fall.

-- Mark


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov 30 01:26:41 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:26:41 -0500
Subject: Kennedys'
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.202641.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Monday, November 29, 1999, Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
>We live in Framingham, west of Boston, which has been his home from
>ca. age 2 until heading off to college this fall.

Just this minute I am istening to an interview on NPR with a biographer of Ed
Kennedy. The host quoted somebody else (a satirist or comedian) as saying, "I've lived in
Framingham, Massachusetts, my entire life and I've never heard anyone who talks like
the Kennedys."

What of it, Mark?


From falklaw at ACD.NET  Tue Nov 30 01:23:48 1999
From: falklaw at ACD.NET (Allan Falk, Attorney at Law)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:23:48 -0500
Subject: 7th ed
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.202348.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have a Revised 4th edition I'd be happy to sell for something towards the
new edition.  I've had it since law school (Yale '72), but it's in
practically mint condition.

Allan Falk
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 1999 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: 7th ed


> On Sat, 13 Nov 1999, Bethany K. Dumas wrote:
>
> > $74.69. I am eager to read and see why Fred thinks it is light years
> > better than the 6th.
>
> I thought the deficiencies of the pre-Bryan Garner editions of Black's
> were obvious and well-known.  They basically lack information on variant
> spellings, parts of speech, inflected forms, etymologies, field labels,
> usage labels and notes, derivatives, synonym notes, and illustrative
> citations.  They are filled with what David Mellinkoff has called "scraps
> of what is said to be law -- Anglo-Saxon law, Hindu, Japanese, Jewish,
> Greek, Spanish, French, Roman, canon, ecclesiastical, civil, and something
> called 'Old European' law," "disembodied snatches of law French and
> Latin," "claptrap from the feudal system ... the armor, the weapons, the
> ancient customs.  Page after page of trivia," as well as general terms of
> well-known meaning, such as "garden," "horsepower," "martini," and "sex."
> On the other hand, the pre-Garner Black's omitted newer (i.e.,
> 20th-century) vocabulary such as "genocide" or "victimless crime."
>
> Most importantly, Black's definitions relied heavily on undiscriminating
> collection of judicial authority as opposed to clear, concise definitions
> based on available evidence of overall usage, and often failed to indicate
> the range of meanings of a term.
>
> My article, "Linguistic Applications of LEXIS and WESTLAW," 30 Jurimetrics
> Journal 147 (1990) has a fuller discussion of all this.
>
> > Also -- I am in the market for editions 1-4 if they are in reasonably
good
> > condition and reasonably priced (I went through law school on 5, then
> > bought 6 when it came out).
>
> The first edition is a rare book that you won't obtain so easily, but Law
> Book Exchange has reprinted it (I think they reprinted the second edition
> as well).
>
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
> Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
> Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
>
>


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Nov 30 02:06:16 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:06:16 -0800
Subject: "Jerusalem Syndrome"
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.180616.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>    Some sufferers arrive mentally disturbed and become convinced they are
> biblical figures:  Old Testament prophets, King David, Jesus, John the
> Baptist, or the Virgin Mary.  Others come to Jerusalem with visions of the
> end of the world.  Still others arrive with no evident disorder, yet then
> feel compelled to don white robes--sometimes the sheets from their hotel
> beds--and preach rambling sermons.

Yes, but consider the lilies...

(couldn't resist that one)

Andrea, who prefers to follow the gourd.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Nov 30 02:22:59 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:22:59 -0800
Subject: intransitive "making"
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.182259.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"M. Lynne Murphy" wrote:
>
> Incidentally, this family also uses "shoot" to mean "give a shot to" in the
> context of "It's time to shoot the (diabetic) cat."  They're the 2nd family
> I've met who have a diabetic cat and use "shoot" this way.  So, maybe it's
> [diabetic-cat]-owner jargon.
>

My doctor, who may or may not own a diabetic cat, used "shoot" when referring to
giving me a shot.  In fact, I misunderstood her, and she had to clarify her
statement (before I would emerge from behind the chair :-)

Andrea


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Nov 30 03:16:54 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:16:54 -0800
Subject: honkin'
In-Reply-To: <85256839.0000649D.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.191654.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
>
> My son, age 18, has been using "honkin'" for at least a couple of years as a
> general intensifier, as in "a honkin' big [whatever]". I'll ask him to
> explicate. We live in Framingham, west of Boston, which has been his home from
> ca. age 2 until heading off to college this fall.
>
> -- Mark
>
"a honkin' big [whatever]"?

I've always heard it (for at least 20+ years now) as "a big honkin'
[whatever]" and also "herkin'". Both can be used without the
word "big" but they seem to require something; e.g., "that's one honkin'
X", "that's one herkin' Y". Of course the superlative would be "that's one
big honkin' X" (each word pronounced very distinctly with notable pauses
for emphasis between each word).
I'm honored that someone in Framingham talks like me, but I think the
other residents of Framingham should be somewhat concerned about it.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

Now that I think of it, it "honkin'" most always refers to size and
"herkin'" to weight, but maybe I'm getting a bit to subtle in my
speculations. I had assumed without any factual basis whatsoever
that "herkin'" may vaguely have had something to with Hercules.


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 30 03:31:32 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:31:32 -0500
Subject: intransitive "making"
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.223132.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just asked at another dinner about "the coffee is making" and a Houstonian
told me that he's used "make" this way for years.  He agreed with me that
he'd only use this for coffee in a coffee maker.  If it were in a
percolator, he'd say "it's percolating" or some such.

Lynne


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Nov 30 04:53:46 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:53:46 -0800
Subject: intransitive "making"
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.205346.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"M. Lynne Murphy" wrote:
>
> I just asked at another dinner about "the coffee is making" and a Houstonian
> told me that he's used "make" this way for years.  He agreed with me that
> he'd only use this for coffee in a coffee maker.  If it were in a
> percolator, he'd say "it's percolating" or some such.
>
> Lynne

I'm a native Houstonian (the few, the proud) and I've never heard that
expression.  What part of town is he from?

Andrea

P.S.  It sounds like something my older Jewish relatives from New Jersey and
Long Island would say...


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Nov 30 05:08:58 1999
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:08:58 -0800
Subject: Good Thing
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.210858.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

i would guess that all of this goes back to earlier public
school [british] talk.  certainly, it figures *very* prominently
in the hilarious 1931 book 1006 and All That by w.c. sellar and
r.j. yeatman.  hardly a page goes by without a Good Thing, a
Bad Thing, a Good Man, a Bad Man, or a Good/Bad King/Queen
"Edward VII was thus a very Good King, besides being a Good
Thing...").  i don't think sellar & yeatman invented it, but
they certainly made it Common Currency for at least a
generation.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 30 04:41:06 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:41:06 -0500
Subject: intransitive "making"
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.234106.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----------
>From: "A. Vine" <avine at ENG.SUN.COM>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: intransitive "making"
>Date: Mon, Nov 29, 1999, 11:53 PM
>

>"M. Lynne Murphy" wrote:
>>
>> I just asked at another dinner about "the coffee is making" and a Houstonian
>> told me that he's used "make" this way for years.  He agreed with me that
>> he'd only use this for coffee in a coffee maker.  If it were in a
>> percolator, he'd say "it's percolating" or some such.
>>
>> Lynne
>
>I'm a native Houstonian (the few, the proud) and I've never heard that
>expression.  What part of town is he from?

Don't know what part of Houston he's from  (I don't know Houston)--he lives
in Waco now...

Lynne


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 30 08:28:08 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 03:28:08 EST
Subject: Bloody Mary; Medical slang; Reader's Digest
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.032808.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BLOODY MARY (continued)

     This continues the discussion on "Bloody Mary" that began with the "21"
Club's claim, in a book published this year.
     None of the bookstores had this book, so I special ordered THE BLOODY
MARY: A CONNOISSEUR'S GUIDE TO THE WORLD'S MOST COMPLEX COCKTAIL (1999) by
Christopher B. O'Hara, photographs by William A. Nash.  It's a slim book
that's filled with photographs.  There is no bibliography.  "The Bloody
History" is on pages 2-6.

     According to Dale DeGroff, considered one of the world's top cocktail
historians  (NYC's Rainbow Room-ed.), bartender Ferdinand "Pete" Petiot of
the Paris-based Harry's New York Bar first served the beverage around 1920.
The basic recipe consisted of vodka, tomato juice, Worcestershire sauce,
lemon, salt, and cayenne pepper.  He called it the Bloody Mary, referring to
the Protestant-burning Mary Tudor of the same name.
     According to the McIlhenny Company, makers of Tabasco Bloody Mary Mix,
another story has it that one of Petiot's customers, an anonymous American
(Entertainer Roy Barton?  I failed to find any info on him in the NYPL
Performing Arts branch--ed.), remarked that the fiery drink reminded him of
something called the "Bucket of Blood Club" back home in Chicago.  It also
made this Yank reminisce about a certain girl he remembered from that club;
her name was Mary.
     In any case, Harry's New York Bar was the birthplace of the Bloody.
Originally, the bar was called Clancy's--Clancy's on Manhattan's East Side,
in fact.

     "21" is never mentioned.  It's stated that the Astor family brought Pete
over to the St. Regis, but that they wanted the drink named the Red Snapper.
     M. Ferdinand Petiot was profiled in THE NEW YORKER, "The Talk of the
Town," _Barman_, 18 July 1964, pp. 19-20.  Petiot came to the St. Regis from
the Savoy in London.  On pg. 20, col. 1:

     "I initiated the Bloody Mary of today," he told us.  "George Jessel said
he created it, but it was really nothing but vodka and tomato juice when I
took it over.  I cover the bottom of the shaker with four large dashes of
salt, two dashes of black pepper, two dashes of cayenne pepper, and a layer
of Worcestershire sauce; I then add a dash of lemon juice and some cracked
ice, put in two ounces of vodka and two ounces of thick tomato juice, shake,
strain, and pour.  We serve a hundred to a hundred and fifty Bloody Marys a
day here in the King Cole Room and in the other restaurants and the banquet
rooms."

     The drink is called "Hot Vodka Red Snapper" in VOGUE, December 1960, pg.
168, col. 2.   HOUSE & GARDEN, January 1956, pg. 31:  BLOODY MARY: Many
people feel that the Bloody Mary is the answer to all next-day worries and
since its creation it has become one of the two most favorite lunch time
cocktails in New York.
     This is from HOUSE & GARDEN, "Cocktail lore and legend," April 1965, pg.
191, col. 1:

     The Bloody Mary, favorite morning-after restorative, is claimed by
George Jessel and at least two New York bartenders, while the screwdriver,
which tastes like orange juice but is considerably more potent, is believed
to have originated with American oil workers in Iran who drank vodka and
orange juice, stirring it with screwdrivers they carried attached to their
fatigue pants by loops.

     I was looking for an Iranian "screwdriver" when I found "hummos."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MEDICAL SLANG (continued)

     A check of Dow Jones for the last two years didn't turn up many medical
slang articles.  This is from the AUSTIN AMERICAN-STATESMAN, 20 August 1998,
pg. A18:

     LONDON--Sometimes, a patient is kind of an FLK, though it's the ones who
become a PIN that really get on nurse's nerves.
     Such coded comments scribbled into hospital charts about patients' looks
and personalities--"Funny Looking Kid" or "Pain In the Neck," for
example--won't be tolerated, Britain's nursing council says.
     The United Kingdom Central Council for Nursing, Midwifery and Health
Visiting plans to send letters to about 640,000 nurses threatening
disciplinary action if they use offensive jargon, the Press Association
reported Wednesday.
     Other examples found in patient records include BUNDY, for "But
Unfortunately Not Dead Yet," and GOK, for "God Only Knows."

     I traveled to Guatemala with a nurse.  There were frequent bathroom
stops for some people, but she said she had "nurse's bladder."  She said that
nurses can hold it for long shifts.  She didn't reveal any other slang.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
READER'S DIGEST

    I've been going through the READER'S DIGEST searching for Americanisms.
In particular, I'm looking for the ever-troublesome "make a federal case out
of it" and "the whole nine yards."  It's slow going and I didn't find those
yet, but I found other great stuff instead.

  June 1953, pg. 54, col. 1:  It was a world where the _click_ or _smash_ hit
was the ultimate goal (last year seven major companies recorded 2500 songs,
but only 81 were hits); a world where _cut-ins_ (giving a performer a share
of a song's profits), _hot stoves_ (open bribes) and other forms of _payola_
were standing operating procedure; a world of _romance_ (a verb meaning to
shower disk jockeys and musicians with attentions in return for
performances).
  August 1953, pg. 16, col. 1:  Coffin Corner is a strange new phenomenon of
very high speed at great altitude.  (See other entries in RHHDAS--ed.)
  August 1953, pg. 16, col. 2:  At 40,000 feet the first rule is BYOO--Bring
Your Own Oxygen--and this "brain basket" is piped to an ample supply.
  August 1953, pg. 98:  _Beware the "Bait-Ad" Gyp_  (AMERICAN SPEECH has
"bait advertising" in May 1958, pg. 157--ed.)
  August 1953, pg. 99, col. 1:  This was my introduction to the "bait 'em and
switch 'em" racket.  I discovered that you can hear fraudulent advertising of
this type daily on radio and TV, and read it in (col. 2--ed.) many newspapers
all across the country.  From the Association of Better Business Bureaus I
learned that "bait advertising" is the biggest gyp and the most widespread
abuse in advertising today.
  August 1953, pg. 155, col. 1--Yet all these men have made a business of
mingling daily with lions, leopards and--the most dangerous trio--buffalo,
elephants and rhino.  (These are the "Big Five," but that term is not used
here.  Taken from Robert C. Ruark's book, HORN OF THE HUNTER--ed.)
  September 1953, pg. 8, col. 1--Whenever I (Eddie Cantor--ed.) think of that
morning, I think of Father Peyton of Los Angeles.  He created the slogan,
"The family that prays together stays together."  It became the theme for the
fine radio program "Family Theater."  It would make a good theme for the
entire nation: "People who pray together stay together."
  September 1953, pg. 23, col. 2--Amos and Andy described the operation
neatly: "The big print (pg. 24, col. 1--ed.) gives it to you and the little
print takes it away."


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Nov 30 09:04:43 1999
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 04:04:43 -0500
Subject: Appalachia documentary on HBO...
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.040443.0500.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

There's a documentary running on HBO called 'American Hollow'. It spends a
year with a family in Mudlick Hollow in Eastern Kentucky. I don't know that
there's much of interest from a linguistic standpoint, then again, I don't
know that it's totally useless from linguistic standpoint, either.

Given that it's on HBO, it should be repeating often...

bkd


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Nov 30 11:47:30 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:47:30 -0500
Subject: honkin'
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.064730.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Great honk!

This is used in Meredih Wilson's _The Music Man_ by Professor Harold
Hill's teenaged protege (I forget his name) in expressing frustration
with Mayor Shin--the father of his heart-throb.

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]


From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM  Tue Nov 30 14:32:19 1999
From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Enid Pearsons)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:32:19 -0500
Subject: Good Thing
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.093219.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes!  I was planning to mention this book, but I couldn't find my copy.
Small typo--1066 and All That (in case someone is checking the used book
stores).

))))))))) Previous Notes Mail
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
To:     ADS-L @ LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
cc:     (bcc: Enid Pearsons/Trade/RandomHouse)
From:  Arnold Zwicky <zwicky @ CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
Date:  11/30/99 12:08 AM
Subject:  Good Thing




i would guess that all of this goes back to earlier public
school [british] talk.  certainly, it figures *very* prominently
in the hilarious 1931 book 1006 and All That by w.c. sellar and
r.j. yeatman.  hardly a page goes by without a Good Thing, a
Bad Thing, a Good Man, a Bad Man, or a Good/Bad King/Queen
"Edward VII was thus a very Good King, besides being a Good
Thing...").  i don't think sellar & yeatman invented it, but
they certainly made it Common Currency for at least a
generation.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Nov 30 16:39:20 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:39:20 -0800
Subject: honkin'
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.083920.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Honkin'" has been in use as a "general intensifier"
in Utah for as far back as I can remember (decades?).

Never heard "hawkin" in the context indicated: as
close as I can come is "hork" and "horkin'" used to
describe vomiting, and also noisily clearing the
throat and mouth and  expectorating a particularly
gross mass of phlegm.  By extension "horkin" is used
as an intensifier, particularly in "horkin' big" to
describe anything considered outsized; however, in my
experience, "honkin'" is used as a modifier or
intensifier much more often than "horkin'".

Never heard "hella-" used as a prefix, but the
adjective "hellacious", which I would propose as a
likely source for "hella-", has been around for
decades (if not centuries, although it's not in my
standard dictionary).  In my memory it seems Mark
Twain used "hellacious".

JIM

--- Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
> Grant Barrett <gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>
> extracts the following from the
> archive:
>
> On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Jesse T Sheidlower wrote:
>
>   Not entirely sure; it depends on how accurate the
>   transcription is. "Hella-" is an intensive prefix
> like
>   "mega-," that has been in use at least since the
> late
>   '80s. I've never heard "hawkin'" before, but I
> have
>   (rarely) encounted "honkin'" meaning roughly
> "exciting;
>   jammin', etc." Perhaps these are different
> realizations
>   of the same word.
> <<<
>
> My son, age 18, has been using "honkin'" for at
> least a couple of years as a
> general intensifier, as in "a honkin' big
> [whatever]". I'll ask him to
> explicate. We live in Framingham, west of Boston,
> which has been his home from
> ca. age 2 until heading off to college this fall.
>
> -- Mark
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Nov 30 16:57:55 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:57:55 -0800
Subject: Whole nine yards
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.085755.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
....

> READER'S DIGEST
>
>     I've been going through the READER'S DIGEST
> searching for Americanisms.
> In particular, I'm looking for the ever-troublesome
> "make a federal case out
> of it" and "the whole nine yards."
....

Are you sure "the whole nine yards" is an Americanism?
I recall reading in the distant past that it referred
to the length of material needed to make a full, or
"great", kilt.  I've read other explantions that nine
yards is the length of cloth needed to make a fine
suit.

JIM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com


From Allynherna at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 30 17:02:50 1999
From: Allynherna at AOL.COM (Allynherna at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:02:50 EST
Subject: City Names
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.120250.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This may have been discussed on our list or on the ANS list...but...has
anyone compiled a list of cities that have "clipped" names in local usage?
1.  Flagstaff=Flag
2.  Rapid City=Rapid
3.  Vancouver=Van
etc.


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 30 16:07:05 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:07:05 -0500
Subject: City Names
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.110705.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Clipping names is really common in Southern Africa, but they clip them and
add an -s.  So, Durban is Durbs, Gabarone (Botswana) is Gabs, and my old
university, Witwatersrand, is Wits.  I think this habit is borrowed from the
British.

Lynne

----------
>From: Allynherna at AOL.COM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: City Names
>Date: Tue, Nov 30, 1999, 12:02 PM
>

>This may have been discussed on our list or on the ANS list...but...has
>anyone compiled a list of cities that have "clipped" names in local usage?
>1.  Flagstaff=Flag
>2.  Rapid City=Rapid
>3.  Vancouver=Van
>etc.


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 30 17:04:34 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:04:34 -0500
Subject: honkin'
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.120434.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday I said:

>>>
My son, age 18, has been using "honkin'" for at least a couple of years as a
general intensifier, as in "a honkin' big [whatever]". I'll ask him to
explicate. We live in Framingham, west of Boston, which has been his home from
ca. age 2 until heading off to college this fall.
<<<

Here is his reply:

>>>
Yeah.. "Honkin'" is rarely used on its own, barring a situation in which
something is, in fact, honking (a car, a goose, or what have you.) Rather, it
amplifies another adjective, as in "That's one big honkin' weasel".

I've rarely heard or seen "honkin'" placed before the other adjective when the
noun is part of the phrase; most times, it's been people from the south, as in
"This is a honkin' nasty lasagna". However, "This alarm clock is honkin' ugly"
is more likely.

It's not a universal amplifier; either "big" or some descriptor of
unpleasantness seems most used with it.
<<<

-- Mark A. Mandel


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Tue Nov 30 17:20:54 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:20:54 -0700
Subject: City Names
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.102054.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Then there's always J-burg and the Cape.

-----Original Message-----
From: M. Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: City Names


>Clipping names is really common in Southern Africa, but they clip them and
>add an -s.  So, Durban is Durbs, Gabarone (Botswana) is Gabs, and my old
>university, Witwatersrand, is Wits.  I think this habit is borrowed from
the
>British.
>
>Lynne
>
>----------
>>From: Allynherna at AOL.COM
>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>Subject: City Names
>>Date: Tue, Nov 30, 1999, 12:02 PM
>>
>
>>This may have been discussed on our list or on the ANS list...but...has
>>anyone compiled a list of cities that have "clipped" names in local usage?
>>1.  Flagstaff=Flag
>>2.  Rapid City=Rapid
>>3.  Vancouver=Van
>>etc.


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 30 17:13:48 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:13:48 -0500
Subject: Kennedys
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.121348.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Grant Barrett <gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG> inquires as follows:

>>>
On Monday, November 29, 1999, Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
>We live in Framingham, west of Boston, which has been his home from
>ca. age 2 until heading off to college this fall.

Just this minute I am istening to an interview on NPR with a biographer of Ed
Kennedy. The host quoted somebody else (a satirist or comedian) as saying, "I've
lived in
Framingham, Massachusetts, my entire life and I've never heard anyone who talks
like
the Kennedys."

What of it, Mark?
<<<

I'm thinking about it. ... I don't think I've heard that accent and manner of
speaking (for which my touchstone is memories of JFK) in Framingham either. A
lot of Framinghamites, like us, are from elsewhere: it's a small town with a lot
of people, as my wife puts it, many of whom, like us, are in high-tech
industries or education.

(Framingham is a suburban town west of Boston. Economically and culturally,
though. it's part of an area called MetroWest, comprising a number of
communities between Boston and Worcester that participate in both cities'
regions but also constitute a significant center of activity on their own.)

But even the old townies among our friends do not talk that way. I heard
something more like it when we first came to New England in 1981 and lived in
Brighton for a short time. Brighton is technically part of Boston, and is quite
close to the main part of it.

Which means what? Only that anyone who thinks of "New England" or
"Massachusetts" or "Boston area" as a dialectally uniform bloc is seriously
wrong.

   Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data
         Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
                     (speaking for myself)


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 30 16:29:03 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:29:03 -0500
Subject: City Names
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.112903.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----------
>From: Amy Speed <speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM>
>

>Then there's always J-burg and the Cape.

Well, the Cape isn't actually the city Cape Town--it's the Cape region.  In
the new provincial map, particularly the Western Cape province, which
includes Cape Town and the Cape of Good Hope (which is a bit down the
coast).

Now that I think about it, I think the South African tendency for clipping
may come from the British, but the adding of -s onto the things that they
clip might be an Afrikaans influence.  Can any British folk comment on the
-s?

Lynne


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 30 17:36:36 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:36:36 EST
Subject: Amazon & me (a continuing saga)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.123636.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     It is expremely important to me, now that I'm reviewing a bunch of books
(I gave a sanitized review of Ayto's 20TH CENTURY WORDS to Amazon), to have
my professional credentials on my member page.
     As of yesterday, again, I couldn't get the member page checking
anonymously on the NYU Bobst library computer, but the member page appears
when I use my home computer--which they certainly know ("Hello Barry A.
Popik!").
    Again, so far, it's quite unusual that no one has contacted me about the
errors and omissions of NEW YORK, a top-fifty best seller on Amazon...

--Barry Popik, Bapopik at aol.com
(Check my Amazon member page for yourself!)
-------------- next part --------------
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From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov 30 18:03:41 1999
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:03:41 -0800
Subject: City Names
In-Reply-To: <01JIY3M89Y8IAZUEKC@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.100341.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tue, Nov 30, 1999 11:29 AM -0500 "M. Lynne Murphy"
<M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU> wrote:

> ----------
>> From: Amy Speed <speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM>
>>
>
>> Then there's always J-burg and the Cape.
>

I always thought it was "Jo-burg."


> Now that I think about it, I think the South African tendency for clipping
> may come from the British, but the adding of -s onto the things that they
> clip might be an Afrikaans influence.  Can any British folk comment on the
> -s?

I'm not British folk, but what about Hants (Hampshire), Lancs
(Lancashire)...(etc.?)?



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 30 17:12:17 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:12:17 -0500
Subject: City Names
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.121217.0500.>

"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:

> >> From: Amy Speed <speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM>
> >>
> >
> >> Then there's always J-burg and the Cape.
> >
>
> I always thought it was "Jo-burg."

Indeed, it is "Jo" -- more often spelt Jo'burg in my experience.  (Just checked
the DSAEHP--they agree.)    You also sometimes hear Jozi, which is the Zulu
nickname.

Lynne
--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Tue Nov 30 18:56:03 1999
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:56:03 -0600
Subject: Snickerdoodle - from the past
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.125603.0600.>

Karl Krahnke wrote:

> The following message appeared on our department mail system today.
>
> Mountain West area ....
>
> ******
>
> My kids are selling frozen ccokie dough as a fund raiser for their
> school.
>  It's $10 for 3 lbs, and comes in snickerdoodle, chocolate chip, oatmeal
>
> raisin, and peanut butter.  It's Mary's Mountain Cookies, so it's
> tasty.  ...

In our big mall/maul the other day, at a cookie kiosk in the mall of the mall, one of the
cookies was snickerdoodle.  I asked and was told it is a sugar cookie with a cinnamon
confection of some sort on top.  Since I could have only one, the macadamia and white
chocolate kept me from tasting the snickerdoodle cookie.
DMLance


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 30 19:19:20 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:19:20 -0500
Subject: honkin'
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.141920.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A datum falling right into my lap, from email written today by a co-worker who
is from the Upper Midwest:

     the big honkin' text behemoths

(referring to texts that are too large to edit in Micro$oft WordPad, or too
large to use for a certain purpose without being divided into smaller segments).

-- Mark


From dstein at MEDIAONE.NET  Tue Nov 30 21:54:56 1999
From: dstein at MEDIAONE.NET (David)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:54:56 -0500
Subject: Pronunciation of Viagra
In-Reply-To: <199906090939_MC2-78BA-287C@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.165456.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It would be kind of ironic... since Niagara Falls is losing its power and
flow rate...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of abatef
> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 9:39 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Pronunciation of Viagra
>
>
> Yes, it rhymes with Niagara, as in Niagara Falls.  That is,
> so-called "long
> a" in first syllable.
>
> I expect the name was chosen with the Falls in mind, but I don't
> know this.
>
> Frank Abate
> OUP US Dictionaries
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 30 21:51:22 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:51:22 EST
Subject: Barcelona Ice Tea; Cocktail.com
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.165122.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    There is a web site called cocktail.com.  It states: "The new cocktail.com goes into beta on Sept. 1, 1999 and launches on Jan. 1, 2000."  Perhaps it's just getting started.  Anyway, it's not very good for a site that should be the sine qua non.  Etymologies aren't here--maybe I should submit my resume and they'd hire me.
    Helena's "The best tapas bar in New York" is located  opposite the Public Theater on Astor Place Row; www.helenastapas.com, (212) 677-5151.
    "Barcelona Ice (sic) Tea" was interesting, but here's the list:

SANGRIA
PICASSO'S PUNCH--Rum, Grenadine, Lime juice, OJ
LOLA FLORES--Vodka, Strawberry, Lime juice, Sour mix
EL PRESIDENTE--Lime and Pineapple juice, Blue Curacoa and light rum
PURPLE PASSION--Vodka, Grape juice, Grapefruit juice and sugar
HELENITA--like a margarita with a splash of blood orange
COSTA BRAVA--Malibu, Pineapple juice, Cream and a splash of strawberry
COSMOPOLITANO--A twist on the traditional Cosmopolitan, made with Bacardi limon instead of vodka
BARCELONA ICE TEA--Our version of the Long Island Ice Tea, with a splash of Licor 43 ($8).


From Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU  Tue Nov 30 23:19:43 1999
From: Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU (Bradley, Beth M)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:19:43 -0600
Subject: City Names
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.171943.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Indianapolis is called "Indie"

-----Original Message-----
From: Allynherna at AOL.COM [mailto:Allynherna at AOL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 11:03 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: City Names


This may have been discussed on our list or on the ANS list...but...has
anyone compiled a list of cities that have "clipped" names in local usage?
1.  Flagstaff=Flag
2.  Rapid City=Rapid
3.  Vancouver=Van
etc.


From emckean at ENTERACT.COM  Tue Nov 30 23:24:12 1999
From: emckean at ENTERACT.COM (emckean at ENTERACT.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:24:12 -0600
Subject: Marketing push behind "the Naughties"
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.172412.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From Wired News. Personally, I prefer "the zips" myself. I'm looking
forward to being an old codger (codgerette? codgerine?) and saying "Well,
back in zip-three we didn't have any of these newfangled jet packs . . ."

--Erin McKean
editor at verbatimmag.com or whatever other email addy is in the From: header

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:29:17 MST
From: Wired News <wired_news_daily_wired at wired.infobeat.com>
To: mac at gerharz.com
Subject: The Microsoft Mediation Begins

Wired News - a must-read for the latest information and commentary on
our rapidly changing digital world.

W I R E D   N E W S              Top Stories -  09:15AM 30.Nov.99.PST
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


 Here Come 'The Naughties' (Culture 3:00 a.m.)
 http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,32769,00.html?tw=wn19991130

 Forget the "Millies" and the "Double-0's." There's a grassroots
campaign to name the first decade of the new millennium -- something
smart and slightly subversive. By Steve Silberman.
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Copyright 1999 Wired Digital, Inc.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  1 01:32:06 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:32:06 EST
Subject: "Virtuous circle"
Message-ID: <SUN.31.OCT.1999.203206.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Last Thursday, Fed Chief Alan Greenspan said that the United States economy is experiencing a "virtuous circle" of new investment, rising productivity, and rising profits.
   Check Nexis in a another week to see if it catches.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  1 01:42:43 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 20:42:43 EST
Subject: Mexican music
Message-ID: <SUN.31.OCT.1999.204243.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Greetings once again from Morelia, Mexico.  Tomorrow is the big Day of the Dead.  Too bad you can't buy a Cherry Garcia around here.
    Latin music is more than Ricky Martin.  This is from THE NEWS, 28 October 1999, pg. 2, col. 2, an interview with Tino Contreras, the grand old man of Meican jazz:

_Are you talking about the high-pitched promotion of the so-called _grupero_ music?_ (Note: Highly popular Grupero music is a mix of northern Mexican ranchero, Tex-Mex jive and a taint of rock.)
   All the television stations are now into the _grupero_ music, and to tell the truth, and you know, it is a type of music that does not bring anything extra to popular music.

_Maybe it's a little advance for _ranchero_ music?
   It's very easy to learn to play a dominant tune on an instrument like a guitar and put on a ten-gallon hat, Texas boots, and there you are.

_But they are selling a lot._
     They are selling like crazy.  But now that we are into this, recently I found out that the _gruperos_ are giving away late-model cars.  This sheer payola, or what I call musical drug trafficking.  Can you imagine a jazz player giving out presents like fancy cars or vans?  We'd be broke for life.

(Contreras calls his music "bolero-jazz."  Does Barnhart have _ranchero_ and _grupero_?--ed.)


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Mon Nov  1 02:04:01 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:04:01 -0500
Subject: Folk etymology (Was Re: Swiss enchiladas)
Message-ID: <SUN.31.OCT.1999.210401.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:02 PM 10/30/99, Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
>I don't know who "they" are, but a former student of mine from die Schweiz
>told me the term 'Schwyzertueuetsch' is commonly used (and note his
>spelling, with 'y' and a doubled umlauted vowel, presumably to signal
>lengthening ['ue'  substitutes for my lack of the umlaut diacritic--how do
>you get that, Greg?]).  Trudgill, in his _Sociolinguistics_ (1995 ed., p.
>101) uses this spelling also, but he does note that his example is "based
>on Zurich speech."  My student taperecorded T's example for me, with
>wonderful intonation and very prominent vowel lengthening; I play it every
>year for my Sociolx class.
>

"They" include a 70-year-old who has lived in Z. his entire life, and has
published extensively on language and literature. But that doesn't mean he's
right. He's probably just trying to emphasize to a gringo like me that the
*range* of "Swiss Deutsch" and the precise parameters of "Z. Deutsch" are
not identical. I notice that your informant seems to spell and pronounce the
term for "Swiss Deutsch" differently from my informant. That may well say
something about the lack of uniformity in "Swiss Deutsch," which seems to
vary from speaker to speaker even in regard to the term itself. Wny, it
makes as much sense to say "Swiss Deutsch" (singular) as it does to say
"American English" (singular)! Add your own emoticon here....

Why should I know or care about Swiss dialect(s)? Because Z dialect shows up
in Joyce's _Finnegans Wake_. He stayed in Z several times from 1904 (age 22)
through 1941 (he died there in that year). It's the only version of "Swiss
Duetsch" he'd have known in any depth.

I can't make diacriticals with my email software, but I knew I had the
German terms in a word-processed document. I just went and cut and pasted
the wording into the email I was writing. If I need a diacritical in an
email, I type the character in WordPerfect or some word-proc system, and
then cut and paste it into the email. I don't do it unless I think I have
to, because I know some email systems and email lists cannot handle
non-ASCII stuff and therefore will turn the character into a bit of
"two-character garbage." But I know that ADS-L accepts and transmits the
common European diacriticals. So I can do it here.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET  Mon Nov  1 04:09:19 1999
From: bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET (Bernard W. Kane)
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 23:09:19 -0500
Subject: Anticipating new coinage
Message-ID: <SUN.31.OCT.1999.230919.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Nantucket Triangle?
Waiting for the networks to pick up on this.
(Pierre Salinger, where are you when we need you?)

Bernie Kane
lurker
mailto:bkane at tigger.jvnc.net


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Mon Nov  1 10:50:30 1999
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:50:30 +0000
Subject: Sweaters
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.105030.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I would call it a sweater, "sweatshirt" wouldn't even occur to me.
>
> Many English folk would call it a jumper, some might term it a gansey,
guernsey,
> or jersey, though.
>

I find it interesting that all of the names are islands in the Channel.

Anyway, thank you everybody for answering my question.  Now I know how to
count my informants "sweatshirt" responses.

Cheers,
Aaron

________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Nov  1 15:34:52 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:34:52 -0800
Subject: Sweaters
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.073452.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Look like sweaters to me!

JIM

--- "Aaron E. Drews" <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I've enclosed a picture of an item of clothing.
> What I'm wondering is:
> would anybody call this item of clothing a
> sweatshirt?  If you don't call it
> a sweatshirt, do you think younger people do, or
> your colleagues and peers?
>
> The reason I ask is because I'm noticing quite a few
> people calling this a
> sweatshirt in my data, where I would expect either
> sweater or jumper.  What
> I want to know is if "sweatshirt" is a legitimate
> variant in any variety of
> American English, or if my subjects are finding a
> way of avoiding having to
> say either sweater or jumper, or if my subjects just
> plain can't tell the
> difference from this picture.
>
> Thanks for any help!
>
> Aaron
>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
> Aaron E. Drews                               The
> University of Edinburgh
> http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of
> English Language and
> aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical &
> Applied Linguistics
>
>  "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT
> PROOF"
>   --Death
>
>

> ATTACHMENT part 2 image/jpeg name=jumper.JPG;
x-mac-creator=474B4F4E; x-mac-type=4A504547



=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Mon Nov  1 15:38:42 1999
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:38:42 -0500
Subject: "Virtuous circle"
In-Reply-To: <0.25aff474.254e4796@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.103842.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Virtuous circle" caught quite a while ago. Lexis-Nexis reports over 600
citations in 1999 alone. The earliest Lexis-Nexis citation is from The
New York Times' Information Bank Abstracts, which offers the following
abstract from August 27, 1972:

     E L Dale Jr article revg present wage-price controls program
     and discussing outlook for Phase 3; recalls 'virtuous circle'
     of wage-price stability in early '60s and subsequent 'vicious
     circle' of wage-price spiral which led to Nixon Adm's imposition
     of controls;

There are 23 citations from the 1970s, 16 of which are from The
Economist, so I'll venture that they did the most to popularize the
phrase. "Virtuous circle" was a Word Spy back on September 15, 1997.

Paul
Books: http://www.mcfedries.com/books/
Word Spy: http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/

>    Last Thursday, Fed Chief Alan Greenspan said that the
> United States economy is experiencing a "virtuous circle" of
> new investment, rising productivity, and rising profits.
>    Check Nexis in a another week to see if it catches.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov  1 16:16:21 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:16:21 -0500
Subject: "Virtuous circle"
In-Reply-To: <005701bf247f$2d2f8a00$8321d0d8@paul.mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.111621.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Paul McFedries wrote:

> "Virtuous circle" caught quite a while ago. Lexis-Nexis reports over 600
> citations in 1999 alone. The earliest Lexis-Nexis citation is from The
> New York Times' Information Bank Abstracts, which offers the following
> abstract from August 27, 1972:

For a linguistically oriented list, there's not a whole lot of checking of
the OED that goes on here.  The OED has "virtuous circle" from 1953.  I
find it even earlier through JSTOR:

1933 _Mind_ 42: 177  Our definition is thus a circle; not however a
vicious but rather a virtuous circle.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From benaaron at CC.HELSINKI.FI  Mon Nov  1 17:05:04 1999
From: benaaron at CC.HELSINKI.FI (Diana Ben-Aaron)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:05:04 +0200
Subject: Encarta dictionary reviews
In-Reply-To: <199911010502.HAA28049@post.it.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.190504.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Slate conversation between Jesse and Dennis mentioned that the reviews
of the Microsoft Encarta dictionary had been well-informed, because the
reporters spoke to lexicographers.  I paraphrase and distort, but that
was the general theme.

If anyone has the citations (= dates) for those reviews at hand and
could e-mail them to me, I would appreciate it.  I have access to American
magazines and newspapers, but not to indexes like Infotrac or Nexis, and
the only review I could find in an afternoon of browsing was the New York
Times for Thursday, Sept. 16 (by Elin Schoen Brockman).  Couldn't make
Altavista spit out any pointers either.

thanks

Diana ben-Aaron
University of Helsinki


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Nov  1 17:54:30 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:54:30 -0800
Subject: Folk etymology (Was Re: Swiss enchiladas)
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.095430.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote:
>
> At 04:02 PM 10/30/99, Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
> >I don't know who "they" are, but a former student of mine from die Schweiz
> >told me the term 'Schwyzertueuetsch' is commonly used (and note his
> >spelling, with 'y' and a doubled umlauted vowel, presumably to signal
> >lengthening ['ue'  substitutes for my lack of the umlaut diacritic--how do
> >you get that, Greg?]).  Trudgill, in his _Sociolinguistics_ (1995 ed., p.
> >101) uses this spelling also, but he does note that his example is "based
> >on Zurich speech."  My student taperecorded T's example for me, with
> >wonderful intonation and very prominent vowel lengthening; I play it every
> >year for my Sociolx class.
> >
>

My Swiss friend, who admittedly is not a linguist, is from Bern, and her husband
is from Luzern, and they definitely have different dialects.  Then again, so do
the Germans.  The question is, once you depart from the Hochdeutsch writing,
does the writing become dialect specific?

As for the four languages of Switzerland - well, I can ask her for the
"official" written form of that, if anyone is interested.

I notice that Peter Richardson is conspicuously silent... ;-}

Andrea


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Mon Nov  1 18:07:23 1999
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:07:23 -0500
Subject: catchphrases not in Whiting, part 4
In-Reply-To: <199910252008.QAA15369@is2.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.130723.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More proverbs or catchphrases from my notes, taking us through the
letter O.  As it happens, just as vol. 1 of RHHDAS was noticably
fatter than vol. 2, so my notes for A-G are more extensive than H-O
or P-Z.  Would that Random House would show us vol. P-Z of RHHDAS, so
we could see its thickness.  Anyway, I will finish this up with
another posting or two.

GAT

1828:   The officers having pursued them, arrived just in time to be
too late, for the parties had a very few minutes previous left to
embark on board the steam boat for Philadelphia. . . .
        New-York Evening Post, April 10, 1828, p. 2, col. 5, from J Commerce

1834:   It was a truly ludicrous scene to behold all these gentry,
"who were just in time to be too late," with bundles, carpet-bags,
and bandboxes, remaining stationary on shore, faintly hoping that the
captain, out of pity, might stop the machinery and take them on
board.
        Carl David Arfwedson, The United States and Canada in 1832,
1833, and 1834, London: Richard Bentley, 1834, repr. by N. Y. &
London: Johnson Reprint Co., 1969, ed. by Marvin Fisher, vol. 1, p.
48

        This is in Ulysses: one of the barflies uses it in the Cyclops
chapter.  Greg Downing will have the exact quotation.

Not in RHHDAS; Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting; nor Whiting, MPPS;
OED: 1816 (late, A. 2. a)

****

1840:   Since then it has been "My dear and my darling, my duck
and my chicken," and sometimes they are kissing and sometimes they
are kicking. . . .
        New York Daily Express, February 12, 1840, p. 2, col. 6

Not in RHHDAS; Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting; not Whiting, MPPS

****


1836:   [William Robinson, sentenced to ten years:] That's no
time at all, I can live it out like a knife.
        The Herald, August 15, 1836, p. 2, col. 4

Not in RHHDAS, under "knife" or "live"; nor Taylor & Whiting;
Whiting, MPPS has several phrases associating knives with quickness,
but not this.

****

1822:   He ought to have a "leather medal" for his design.
        XYZ.  A Knickerbocker Tour of New York State, 1822.  Louis
Leonard Tucker, ed.  Albany: Univ. of the State of New York, The
State Education Dept., New York State Library, 1968, p. 39

1826:   [a man executes his horse, ceremoniously].  For this
gallant act of bravery, it is recommended that the ladies and
gentlemen of the place should present him with a leather medal.
        The Long-Island Star, February 9, 1826, p. 2, col. 5

1843:   Reward of Merit. [for "some recent specimens of American
Sagacity and contrivance" during an election.]  1.  A Leather Medal
each ? very thick and solid. . . . [to some voters].  A pair of horn
goggles ? regular dead-eyes -- [to other voters].
        New-York Daily Tribune, November 9, 1843, p. 2, col. 3

There are variants of this phrase.  I remember having seen "putty
medal" but can't document it.

RHHDAS: 1831, citing OED; not in Whiting, EAPPP; nor Taylor &
Whiting; DAE: 1837; OED: 1831

****

1866:   These courtesies were like an invitation from a Captain
to a Midshipman, "no compulsion, only you must."
        Thomas J. Dimsdale, The Vigilantes of Montana. . . .  Virginia

Not in Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting; nor Whiting, MPPS; OED: 1882
(must, verb, 8.b)

****

1933:   Just make a noise like a fish but keep your eyes open.
        Cornelius W. Willemse, A Cop Remembers, N. Y.: E. P. Dutton, 1933, p. 84

RHHDAS: has 5 variations on "make a noise like ---", 1902-1959, as
subhead under "noise", but all but the 1908 cite has the sense of "go
away"; none mean keep still; not in Taylor & Whiting nor Whiting,
MPPS.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Nov  1 18:03:40 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:03:40 -0800
Subject: Swiss cheese
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.100340.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:
>
> >... except for the imported Swiss cheese, which as we know is not
> >  really called Swiss cheese but Emmenthaler.
>
> What about Gruyere??
>

The point being that what we generally term "Swiss cheese" in the States (the
semi-soft cheese with the holes in it) is Emmenthaler.

Certainly Gruyere is Swiss, but if you said to someone at a deli in the States,
"I want a ham and Swiss on rye with spicy mustard" they're likely not going to
come back with, "Emmenthaler, Gruyere, or Raclette?"

Andrea


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Nov  1 18:50:13 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:50:13 -0800
Subject: Sanborns Mexican food; Mexican drinks
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.105013.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> SOUTH AMERICAN COFFEE--Licor de Platano, Kahlua.

Is that a liquor made from plantains?

>
>   Some drinks:
>
> BLODDY BULL--?

I remembered this is made with beef bouillon (my mom used to drink it), so I
looked up the recipe on the Web:

Ingredients:
               1.0 Wedge  Lemon
               1.0 slice  Lime
               1.0 oz.  Vodka
               0.5 glass  Tomato Juice
               0.5 glass  Beef Bouillon
 Directions:
               Pour vodka, tomato juice, and beef bouillon
               over ice in a highball glass and stir. Add the
               slice of lime and the wedge of lemon and
               serve.

Andrea


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Nov  1 19:44:10 1999
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 11:44:10 -0800
Subject: Folk etymology (Was Re: Swiss enchiladas)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991030155818.00b095a0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.114410.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Beverly. It's hard for a speaker of Swiss German to sit here and
watch all this speculation flying by on screen. 'Schwyzertueuetsch' is as
close as my keyboard will allow me to get, too. Declaring that Swiss
German doesn't exist would be big news to the 4 million + native speakers
of the stuff. Yes, one does differentiate between Zueritueuetsch and
Churer Tueuetsch just as one identifies speakers right away not only by
their home canton, but their home town as well. When I called the Swiss
Consulate and asked about some films, I received as an answer the
question: "Bad Ragaz?" The person was simply identifying me by my version
of her native language; unfortunately, she was about 15 miles too far
north.

And yes, there are a few different kinds of cheese made over there. Start
by identifying them by each alp that produces them. (All this reminds me
that we're heading into fondue season, so "En Guete" to all...)

Peter Richardson

On Sat, 30 Oct 1999, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> I don't know who "they" are, but a former student of mine from die Schweiz
> told me the term 'Schwyzertueuetsch' is commonly used (and note his
> spelling, with 'y' and a doubled umlauted vowel, presumably to signal
> lengthening ['ue'  substitutes for my lack of the umlaut diacritic--how do


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  1 21:10:19 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:10:19 EST
Subject: People Chow; "I see dead people"
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.161019.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PEOPLE CHOW

    An About.com message on Frankenstein Foods used "People Chow."  I don't know how frequently this connection is used.

--------------------------------------------------------
I SEE DEAD PEOPLE

   Sorry for not using the OED here in Mexico on "virtuous circle."  (Even at home, it takes me at least an hour to go back and forth to NYU.)
   The movie SIXTH SENSE was popular in the States last summer and is also popular down here.  The movie's catchphrase is "I see dead people."  It's not useful enough to catch on much--except for days like today.
   Today is the Day of the Dead, and I'm heading out to the cemetery!


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Nov  1 21:30:03 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:30:03 -0800
Subject: catchphrases not in Whiting, part 4
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.133003.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Granted these examples are out of context, but from
them I deduce that a "leather medal" is a whipping or
strapping.  What would a "putty medal" be?

JIM
---------------------------------------------------
1822:   He ought to have a "leather medal" for his
design.
        XYZ.  A Knickerbocker Tour of New York State,
1822.  Louis
Leonard Tucker, ed.  Albany: Univ. of the State of New
York, The
State Education Dept., New York State Library, 1968,
p. 39

1826:   [a man executes his horse, ceremoniously].
For this
gallant act of bravery, it is recommended that the
ladies and
gentlemen of the place should present him with a
leather medal.
        The Long-Island Star, February 9, 1826, p. 2,
col. 5

1843:   Reward of Merit. [for "some recent specimens
of American
Sagacity and contrivance" during an election.]  1.  A
Leather Medal
each ? very thick and solid. . . . [to some voters].
A pair of horn
goggles ? regular dead-eyes -- [to other voters].
        New-York Daily Tribune, November 9, 1843, p.
2, col. 3

There are variants of this phrase.  I remember having
seen "putty
medal" but can't document it.

RHHDAS: 1831, citing OED; not in Whiting, EAPPP; nor
Taylor &
Whiting; DAE: 1837; OED: 1831

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Nov  1 21:42:44 1999
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:42:44 -0800
Subject: Swiss German
In-Reply-To: <381DD3D6.B2930E6D@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.134244.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I notice that Peter Richardson is conspicuously silent... ;-}

Well, now that Andrea has smoked me out, I'll add yet another tidbit to
the discussion. Outside of the hallowed halls of the Sprachatlas der
deutschen Schweiz, there isn't an agreed upon system for transcribing SwG,
although most of the ads circulated in nationally-read newspapers use one
version or another of Zurich dialect, the 500-lb. gorilla in everyone's
Stuebli. And no wonder, for Zurich is the cultural/economic capital of the
SwG-speaking part (i.e. about 70%) of the country and the lingua franca of
the broadcast media. But local versions of SwG are immediately apparent in
the names of establishments that view themselves as trendy (e.g. clothing
stores, fast food places). Foreign words are treated in different ways
according to region, generation, and audience, a pretty common phenomenon
in other places as well. A place that sells denim garments might be a
Jeans-Shop in one town and a Tschiins-Schop in another--with identical
pronunciations, of course.

What has not yet been mentioned is Schweizer Hochdeutsch, a spoken variant
of what was earlier referred to as Schriftdeutsch or Standarddeutsch, the
school standard of all three German-speaking countries. Those used to
non-Swiss pronunciation of German might think that Swiss speakers of the
standard are indeed speaking SwG, because prosodic features of the
"language of heart and home" are almost without exception transplanted to
the standard. When I asked a Swiss friend why this might be so, he opined
that the German Swiss want very much to identify themselves as Swiss and
not be mistaken for either Germans or Austrians. So it's not, as many
think, that "they can't do it,"  but rather that "they don't want to do
it."

For a super-regional dictionary of SwG, take a look at the Schweizerisches
Idiotikon. Otherwise there are smaller dictionaries for most of the
cities, from Bern to Davos--and even translations of classics such as The
Iliad into Baeaerndueuetsch (sorry for the missing diereses, as I said
before).

Peter


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Mon Nov  1 22:02:51 1999
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:02:51 -0500
Subject: "Virtuous circle"
In-Reply-To: <005701bf247f$2d2f8a00$8321d0d8@paul.mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.170251.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not to be nitpicky, but I just checked the text of Greenspan's speech,
and he actually used the term "virtuous cycle":

     To be sure, there is also a virtuous cycle at play here.
     A whole new set of profitable investments raises
     productivity, which for a time raises profits -- spurring
     further investment and consumption.

This is not quite as popular as "virtuous circle," with only 434 L-N
citations for 1999. Note, too (insert nod to Fred Shapiro here) that the
OED doesn't have virtuous cycle (or even vicious cycle, for that matter;
it does have vicious circle and vicious spiral).

The earliest L-N citation is from Business Week, February 12, 1979:

     They call it the "virtuous cycle," one in which a series
     of sound economic policies sets off a chain of events in
     which improved economic performance produces sound
     currencies. This in turn helps to improve economic
     performance further.

Paul
Books: http://www.mcfedries.com/books/
Word Spy: http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/


From bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU  Mon Nov  1 22:07:32 1999
From: bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU (BRITTANY M. BARBER)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:07:32 CST
Subject: a question
In-Reply-To: <000801bf1cff$6e7a24c0$79b0da18@curriculumbuilders.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.160732.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think kike is from Germany.  There is a good book on southern
terminology and slang called _Whistlin' Dixie_.


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Mon Nov  1 22:58:39 1999
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:58:39 -0500
Subject: catchphrases not in Whiting, part 4
In-Reply-To: <19991101213003.29190.rocketmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.175839.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James Smith observed:
"Granted these examples are out of context, but from
them I deduce that a "leather medal" is a whipping or
strapping.  What would a "putty medal" be?"

Actually, this interpretation is so obvious that it hadn't ever
occurred to me.  I had been supposing a leather medal was a medal
made of leather, as opposed to gold or silver.  A putty medal would
be even less of a distinction than a leather one.  But "leather
medal" as "dose of strapponia" (a phrase from another old newspaper)
would certainly be applicable to the 1826 passage, since the
editorialist was rather outraged.  "A medal made of a substance of
little value" would be more appropriate for 1822 and 1843, perhaps,
since those writers were merely deploring incompetence or stupidity.

Thanks for the thought.

GAT


---------------------------------------------------
1822:   He ought to have a "leather medal" for his
design.
        XYZ.  A Knickerbocker Tour of New York State,
1822.  Louis Leonard Tucker, ed.  Albany: Univ. of the State of New
York, The State Education Dept., New York State Library, 1968,
p. 39

1826:   [a man executes his horse, ceremoniously].
For this gallant act of bravery, it is recommended that the
ladies and gentlemen of the place should present him with a
leather medal.
        The Long-Island Star, February 9, 1826, p. 2,
col. 5

1843:   Reward of Merit. [for "some recent specimens
of American Sagacity and contrivance" during an election.]  1.  A
Leather Medal each ? very thick and solid. . . . [to some voters].
A pair of horn goggles ? regular dead-eyes -- [to other voters].
        New-York Daily Tribune, November 9, 1843, p. 2, col. 3

There are variants of this phrase.  I remember having
seen "putty medal" but can't document it.

RHHDAS: 1831, citing OED; not in Whiting, EAPPP; nor
Taylor & Whiting; DAE: 1837; OED: 1831

=====

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From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov  1 17:14:27 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:14:27 -0500
Subject: 'Schwyzertueuetsch'  (was   Re: Folk etymology) (Was Re:
 Swiss enchiladas)
In-Reply-To: <199910311631.LAA35878@pilot023.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.121427.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ditto for Bosnia, whose citizens now speak Bosniak (sp?).

At 11:36 AM 10/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Is German a language (or just a collection of a bunch of High and Low
>German dialects)? When dialects/languages are related, isn't this always a
>sociopolitical question (with "right" answers depending on who you're
>talking to)? Notice how quickly Serbo-Croatian became Serbian and Croatian
>(without a blink at linguistic facts).
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
>
>
> >A possibly more definitive solution as to whether Schwyzertueuetsch is a
> >language or just the overall title for a group of very high German dialects
> >might be to ascertain what the four official languages are of the Swiss
> >Confederation: French, Italian, Roumasch (in its various spellings (which
> >one is official?), and ?  Scott Catledge
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
> >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Sent: Saturday, October 30, 1999 2:02 PM
> >Subject: Re: Folk etymology (Was Re: Swiss enchiladas)
> >
> >
> >I don't know who "they" are, but a former student of mine from die Schweiz
> >told me the term 'Schwyzertueuetsch' is commonly used (and note his
> >spelling, with 'y' and a doubled umlauted vowel, presumably to signal
> >lengthening ['ue'  substitutes for my lack of the umlaut diacritic--how do
> >you get that, Greg?]).  Trudgill, in his _Sociolinguistics_ (1995 ed., p.
> >101) uses this spelling also, but he does note that his example is "based
> >on Zurich speech."  My student taperecorded T's example for me, with
> >wonderful intonation and very prominent vowel lengthening; I play it every
> >year for my Sociolx class.
> >
> >>Actually, to be more accurate, since you seem to be interested, they tell
> >me
> >>there is not even such a thing as Schwizert?tsch. There are only local
> >>dialects each of which is a bit different, e.g., Z?rit?tsch (Z?rich
> >>Deutsch). So they say....
> >>
> >>Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu
>
>Dennis R. Preston
>Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
>preston at pilot.msu.edu
>Office: (517)353-0740
>Fax: (517)432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  1 23:51:31 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:51:31 EST
Subject: December error; Tequila
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.185131.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I once again can?t read a single e-mail.  Oh well.

--------------------------------------------------------
DECEMBER ERROR

   Some Mexicans are walking around today with masks of the former president, Carlos Salinas.  In Mexico, the bums are thrown out of office--they leave the country with ill-gotten loot and the peso is devalued.  In 1995, 1.7 million people lost their jobs.
   Yesterday, it was announced that Salinas has written his memoirs.  (In the U.S., criminals have to share the proceeds of these things.)  This is from THE NEWS, 1 November 1999, pg. 4, col. 1:

   One of the main topics to be addressed in the book is the so called "December error," a 1995 decision of the federal government that caused the peso devaluation, considered the decade's worst financial crisis in recent memory.

   ("The decade's worst financial crisis in recent memory?"  What's that mean?--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
TEQUILA

   I'll hit "tequila" again, but this excellent article on the tequila boom is from THE NEWS, 28 October 1999, pg. 37, cols. 1-3:

_Tequila: Biting The Worm Tha Feeds You_
   First of all, movie fans will be dismayed to learn that genuine tequila is never, ever bottled with a worm inside.  The spirit that does have a worm is mezcal, a totally different proposition.
   How did Mexico's national drink ever get to be so popular, even without the benefit of a global marketing campaign such as the one Columbia launched for its coffee?  Those with long memories will recall that for many decades, tequila--like Corona or Victoria beer--was strictly for the low-income masses.  Today, it's gone beyond mainstream, and in some countries--Mexico included--is regarded as more upscale than single-mal Scotch or cognac.
   The difference is marketing and generic positioning, as well as Mexico's long and strenuous effort to get tequila certified wordlwide as unique in origin to this country alone, a feat that was finally accomplished last year.  To mark the certification, the World Trad Organization witnessed the smashing of thousands of bottles of fake tequila from Russia, Spain and Japan, among others, on Brussels' main square.  (See my brief discussion on South African wines and "port."--ed.)
   The blue agave tequilana plant, from which genuine tequila is made, only grows in the state of Jalisco.  The town of Tequila, about 80 kilometers from Guadalajara, is to the spirit wha the Champagne region is to bubbles, or what Bordeaux's cabernet sauvignon grapes are to red wine. (...)
   The plant takes three full yars to mature, and after the juice is extracted from the core "pineapple" (thus called because of its shape), the distilling and aging process takes anywhere from two to eight years for the amber-colored "reposados." (...)
   The last I heard, the Cancun Ritz-Carlton hotel's tequila lounge was still the country's leader, with more than 200 tequila brands and daily seminars and tastings.

(I'll be there later in the week for extensive research--ed.)


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Tue Nov  2 01:05:21 1999
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:05:21 -0800
Subject: Swiss cheese
In-Reply-To: <381DD5FC.7F597A74@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.170521.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>Certainly Gruyere is Swiss, but if you said to someone at a deli in the
>States,
>"I want a ham and Swiss on rye with spicy mustard" they're likely not going to
>come back with, "Emmenthaler, Gruyere, or Raclette?"

Actually, that's why I mentioned it.  Excluding the Raclette (and I bought
a little Raclette maker while in Switzerland), when I've said something
like "real Swiss cheese" or "Swiss Swiss cheese" to people in a deli, I've
often been asked whether I wanted Emmenthaler or Gruyere.

Rima


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Tue Nov  2 01:31:20 1999
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:31:20 -0500
Subject: catchphrases not in Whiting, part 4
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.203120.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Putty Medal mentioned at (no definition given):
http://www.mgcars.org.uk/news/news510.html

The site has a 13 July 1999 date.

George S. Cole    gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  2 01:53:24 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:53:24 -0500
Subject: catchphrases not in Whiting, part 4
In-Reply-To: <267BA517A79@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.205324.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, GEORGE THOMPSON wrote:

> or P-Z.  Would that Random House would show us vol. P-Z of RHHDAS, so
> we could see its thickness.  Anyway, I will finish this up with

With trepidation, I ask the Big Question: with Jesse leaving Random House,
will there be a third volume of the RHHDAS?

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Tue Nov  2 02:04:59 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:04:59 -0500
Subject: catchphrases not in Whiting, part 4
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911012051170.28580-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.210459.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Fred Shapiro wrote:

>With trepidation, I ask the Big Question: with Jesse leaving Random House,
>will there be a third volume of the RHHDAS?

I know that Jon Lighter has about completed his editorial work on it.

Bethany


From lovebug132 at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Nov  2 02:11:22 1999
From: lovebug132 at HOTMAIL.COM (Love Hartman)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:11:22 PST
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.181122.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am curious about the different words used when asking for a specific
screwdriver. I heard that originally a person would either ask for a
phillips or a standard or a flat. I heard someone refer to the two different
types of screwdrivers as a "plus or minus".  How did the plus and minus get
started?
L.H.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU  Tue Nov  2 02:23:34 1999
From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 21:23:34 -0500
Subject: Screwdrivers
In-Reply-To: <19991102021122.50253.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.212334.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Just randomly, I would guess that it stems from what the tips look
like.  A Phillips screwdriver has a tip that looks a lot like a +, and a
standard screwdriver has a tip that looks like a -.

    Johanna

Excerpts from mail: 1-Nov-99 Screwdrivers by Love Hartman at HOTMAIL.COM
> I am curious about the different words used when asking for a specific
> screwdriver. I heard that originally a person would either ask for a
> phillips or a standard or a flat. I heard someone refer to the two different
> types of screwdrivers as a "plus or minus".  How did the plus and minus get
> started?


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Tue Nov  2 02:57:51 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:57:51 -0700
Subject: Screwdrivers
In-Reply-To: <19991102021122.50253.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.195751.0700.>

My father, a carpenter, always called the flat screwdriver a "slotted"
screwdriver.

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Love Hartman
Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 7:11 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Screwdrivers


I am curious about the different words used when asking for a specific
screwdriver. I heard that originally a person would either ask for a
phillips or a standard or a flat. I heard someone refer to the two different
types of screwdrivers as a "plus or minus".  How did the plus and minus get
started?
L.H.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Nov  2 03:52:19 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:52:19 -0800
Subject: Screwdrivers
In-Reply-To: <000001bf24de$0e41dbc0$d41558c0@pavilion>
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.195219.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've heard "standard", "straight" and "slotted" which is odd because the
slot is in the screw, one of those transferred epithets, I guess. I've
never heard "plus" and "minus" screwdrivers. Of course, where I worked
there wasn't a simple screwdriver but always an "[expletive] screwdriver."

allen
(who worked as a glazier and weather-stripper for at least 15 years,
although in retrospect it seems much shorter)
maberry at u.washington.edu



On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Amy Speed wrote:

> My father, a carpenter, always called the flat screwdriver a "slotted"
> screwdriver.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Love Hartman
> Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 7:11 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Screwdrivers
>
>
> I am curious about the different words used when asking for a specific
> screwdriver. I heard that originally a person would either ask for a
> phillips or a standard or a flat. I heard someone refer to the two
  different
> types of screwdrivers as a "plus or minus".  How did the plus and minus get
> started?
> L.H.
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  2 04:48:44 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 23:48:44 EST
Subject: "Virtuous circle"
Message-ID: <MON.1.NOV.1999.234844.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't intend to nitpick, either, but this is not the first time I've
encountered the verb, "nitpick," used as adjective, as in "nitpicky." Is this
usage geographically determined, or has it been validated via some legitimate
source?  The first time I heard a speaker use it (around 1989), another
listener "corrected" her (This interplay occurred several times.)  What's the
word on this issue?
                    PAT


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Nov  2 05:01:53 1999
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse T Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 00:01:53 -0500
Subject: catchphrases not in Whiting, part 4
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911012051170.28580-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
 from "Fred Shapiro" at Nov 1, 99 08:53:24 pm
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.000153.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> > or P-Z.  Would that Random House would show us vol. P-Z of RHHDAS, so
> > we could see its thickness.  Anyway, I will finish this up with
>
> With trepidation, I ask the Big Question: with Jesse leaving Random House,
> will there be a third volume of the RHHDAS?

I think the answer to this is still uncertain. But it is absolutely
true that everyone involved, including Jon, Random House, and
certainly me, very much want to see the publication of the
remainder of HDAS. There are a lot of issues that need to be
sorted out, but we all hope that this can be done.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester at panix.com>


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Tue Nov  2 13:04:23 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 06:04:23 -0700
Subject: "Virtuous circle"
In-Reply-To: <0.2190c4e8.254fc72c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.060423.0700.>

I have always used the word nitpicky.

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of P2052 at AOL.COM
Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 9:49 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: "Virtuous circle"


I don't intend to nitpick, either, but this is not the first time I've
encountered the verb, "nitpick," used as adjective, as in "nitpicky." Is
this
usage geographically determined, or has it been validated via some
legitimate
source?  The first time I heard a speaker use it (around 1989), another
listener "corrected" her (This interplay occurred several times.)  What's
the
word on this issue?
                    PAT


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Nov  2 13:49:12 1999
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:49:12 -0500
Subject: "Nitpicky" (was RE: "Virtuous circle")
In-Reply-To: <0.2190c4e8.254fc72c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.084912.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would classify "nitpicky" as perfectly acceptable usage. As my
"legitimate source" I offer Lexis-Nexis, which reports nearly 1,000
citations. However, the earliest occurs in a Washington Post story from
April 21, 1980, so it must be fairly new. That explains why "older"
dictionaries (OED, Webster's Third New International) don't have it. I
did find it in the recently-published Canadian Oxford Dictionary, thus
solidifying its claim as my favorite lexicon. Can anyone find nitpicky
in any other sources (Encarta, perhaps)?

Paul
http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/

> I don't intend to nitpick, either, but this is not the first time
> I've encountered the verb, "nitpick," used as adjective, as in
> "nitpicky." Is this usage geographically determined, or has it been
> validated via some legitimate source?  The first time I heard a
> speaker use it (around 1989), another listener "corrected" her
> (This interplay occurred several times.)  What's the word on this
> issue?
>                     PAT


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  2 14:02:15 1999
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:02:15 -0500
Subject: Swiss cheese
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.090215.0500.>

Not to be picky, but raclettes are made with a combination of cheeses,
one of which is something like Fontina and the other is "swiss" cheese,
plus kirsch of course.  (Memory fails me --not a recipe I make often)
-- db
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  2 14:04:03 1999
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:04:03 -0500
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.090403.0500.>

The + screwdriver is called a phillips screwdriver, the - is a generic
screwdriver with no other designation.

-- db
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Nov  2 12:06:20 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:06:20 -0400
Subject: "Nitpicky" (was RE: "Virtuous circle")
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.080620.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nitpicky (or nit-picky) brings up an interesting subject.  I agree that
this term should be included in dictionaries that attempt to establish
a record of English (i.e. big dictionaries and their supplements
[nitpicky is in W3 Addenda Sect.).  It is perhaps a new term, however
its appearance back to 1980 in Nexis is not particularly definitive.
It was in 1980, after all that Nexis began to aggressively expand.  My
suspicion is that nitpicky is rather older, perhaps as old as nitpicker
and nitpick.

In addition, one could make a case that its entry in college
dictionaries is really unnecessary, as in  MW10th and Encarta.  It is
the product of a fairly straightforward suffix, -y, which can be
attached to form a fairly transparent derivative rather in the same way
that -ness and -ish do so freely on almost any word.  Some words formed
in this way are quite legitimately main entries in college
dictionaries.  But those which are relegated to run-on status do little
more than say this term has been found.  Run-on status is often just a
device to increase the entry count of a dictionary.

Regards,
David K. Barnhart
barnhart at highlands.com


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov  2 16:08:02 1999
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:08:02 -0800
Subject: Swiss cheese
In-Reply-To: <381EEEE7.93ED9CF4@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.080802.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Woops. Not to be picky, but that's sounding a lot like fondue, minus
another couple of cheeses. We use Gruyere, Appenzeller, Emmenthaler, and
Raclette as the "binder." You can use Fontina as a binder as well, but
Raclette does a better job. .. Raclette is made with...well, Raclette. The
half-round of cheese is put right up to the heat, and when the melted
layer is just about to ooze off the chunk, you scrape it off with a knife
onto the traditional potato, tomato, and sweet pickle.

Peter R.

On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, David Bergdahl wrote:

> Not to be picky, but raclettes are made with a combination of cheeses,
> one of which is something like Fontina and the other is "swiss" cheese,
> plus kirsch of course.  (Memory fails me --not a recipe I make often)
> -- db
> ____________________________________________________________________
> David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
> tel:  (740) 593-2783
> 366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
> (740) 593-2818
>


From dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP  Tue Nov  2 16:17:28 1999
From: dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP (Daniel Long)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 01:17:28 +0900
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.011728.0900.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Japanese, the Phillips is called a "plus" and the regular screwdriver a
"minus".  I have never heard these in the English world.   However, my
experience with words like this that are regarded to be "wasei eigo" or "made in
Japan English terms" is that if you search hard enough you often find that at
SOME time SOME where in the English speaking world they were used.   So, I
wouldn't be too surprised if these terms were used at some point in some part of
the English world.   If not, then maybe they are backborrowings from Japanese.

Danny Long

P.S. Yeah, I've signed back on.  Hey y'all!  Miss me Barry?  Dang, I forgot he
cain't read his mail.

Love Hartman wrote:

> I am curious about the different words used when asking for a specific
> screwdriver. I heard that originally a person would either ask for a
> phillips or a standard or a flat. I heard someone refer to the two different
> types of screwdrivers as a "plus or minus".  How did the plus and minus get
> started?

  --
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-426-77-2184
Japanese Language and Literature Dept.    fax  +81-426-77-2140
Tokyo Metropolitan University
1-1 Minami Osawa, Hachioji-shi, Tokyo  192-0397 Japan
mailto:dlong at bcomp.metro-u.ac.jp
http://nihongo.human.metro-u.ac.jp/long/


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Tue Nov  2 16:39:29 1999
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:39:29 -0700
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.093929.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From: A. Maberry <maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU>


: I've heard "standard", "straight" and "slotted" which is odd because
: the slot is in the screw, one of those transferred epithets, I guess.
: I've never heard "plus" and "minus" screwdrivers. Of course, where I
: worked there wasn't a simple screwdriver but always an "[expletive]
: screwdriver."

Regarding the "slotted" designation, it sounds like a sort of abbreviation
for what my father (born in Washington DC, did most of his growing up in
Southern Maryland) called it--he always called it a "straight-slot"
screwdriver.

(The other one was consistently a "Phillips[sp?]-head" screwdriver, FTR.)

David Bowie                                       Department of English
Assistant Professor                            Brigham Young University
db.list at pmpkn.net              http://humanities.byu.edu/faculty/bowied
   The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer


From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Nov  2 16:57:08 1999
From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:57:08 -0500
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.115708.0500.>

As I was growing up, I remember hearing straight (???), regular, and slotted,
which always seemed to me to have the most official sound about it.

David Bowie wrote:

> Regarding the "slotted" designation, it sounds like a sort of abbreviation
> for what my father (born in Washington DC, did most of his growing up in
> Southern Maryland) called it--he always called it a "straight-slot"
> screwdriver.
>
> (The other one was consistently a "Phillips[sp?]-head" screwdriver, FTR.)

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                      "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From greg at PULLIAM.ORG  Tue Nov  2 17:30:40 1999
From: greg at PULLIAM.ORG (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:30:40 -0600
Subject: Screwdrivers
In-Reply-To: <381EEF53.A004EC0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.113040.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I grew up in Mississippi and Tennessee in the 60s and 70s.  My dad is
from Hannibal, MO.  I call them "phillips-head" and "flat-head"
screwdrivers.  I don't know (as I think about it now) if I picked
"flat-head" up from Dad or from living in the deep and mid- south.

-
Gregory J. Pulliam
Illinois Institute of Technology
Lewis Department of Humanities
Chicago, IL   60616
pulliam at iit.edu


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov  2 18:11:35 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:11:35 -0500
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.131135.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Flat-head is good Louisville (or was).

Dennis

>I grew up in Mississippi and Tennessee in the 60s and 70s.  My dad is
>from Hannibal, MO.  I call them "phillips-head" and "flat-head"
>screwdrivers.  I don't know (as I think about it now) if I picked
>"flat-head" up from Dad or from living in the deep and mid- south.
>
>-
>Gregory J. Pulliam
>Illinois Institute of Technology
>Lewis Department of Humanities
>Chicago, IL   60616
>pulliam at iit.edu


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  2 18:53:49 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:53:49 EST
Subject: Eccentric labels
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.135349.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ADS members should be getting their copies of the "September" Newsletter of
the American Dialect Society by first-class mail (airmail outside the U.S.)
this week. I must apologize for the look of the mailing labels on many
copies. They printed off-center vertically, so the member's name is somewhat
truncated.

Rather than delay further, I decided to go ahead with the mailing using the
eccentric labels. Most of the copies should make it to the proper address,
but some may not. If you don't get your copy of the newsletter by about Nov.
12 at the latest, let me know and I'll send a relpacement.

And well before the January issue, we'll take steps to ensure that future
labels are on target.

- Allan Metcalf


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  2 19:06:22 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:06:22 -0500
Subject: "Nitpicky" (was RE: "Virtuous circle")
In-Reply-To: <00c101bf2539$0b4ca840$8321d0d8@paul.mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.140622.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 2 Nov 1999, Paul McFedries wrote:

> citations. However, the earliest occurs in a Washington Post story from
> April 21, 1980, so it must be fairly new. That explains why "older"

As David Barnhart has noted, the fact that the first usage on Nexis is
dated 1980 doesn't mean that much.  The earliest I find on JSTOR is the
following:

1964 _Amer. Econ. Rev._ 54: 597  Economics would not be so difficult if
economists would just stop being obscurantist, pedantic, and nit-picky.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Tue Nov  2 19:19:04 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 12:19:04 -0700
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.121904.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin? Cheese curds are a little
ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the cheese is stringy (kind
of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and can find them nowhere!

Amy


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Tue Nov  2 19:30:55 1999
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:30:55 -0600
Subject: Cheese curds
In-Reply-To: <006801bf2567$20b5ae60$61b7f7ce@scooby.paradigmtech.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.133055.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Those are FRIED cheese curds!  Most of us here in Wisconsin eat them fresh
and squeaky.


At 12:19 PM 11/2/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin? Cheese curds are a little
>ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the cheese is stringy (kind
>of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and can find them nowhere!
>
>Amy
>


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov  2 19:38:54 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:38:54 -0500
Subject: nitpicky
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.143854.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"PAT" (P2052 at AOL.COM) wrote:

>>>>>
I don't intend to nitpick, either, but this is not the first time I've
encountered the verb, "nitpick," used as adjective, as in "nitpicky." Is this
usage geographically determined, or has it been validated via some legitimate
source?  The first time I heard a speaker use it (around 1989), another
listener "corrected" her (This interplay occurred several times.)  What's the
word on this issue?
<<<<<

I've seen that, now that you mention it. I prefer "nit-picking".

Grew up NYC, 50s-60s; Berkeley '73-'81; Boston area since.

   Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data
         Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
                     (speaking for myself)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  2 20:17:13 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:17:13 EST
Subject: VIPS and Chip's
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.151713.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

VIPS AND CHIP'S

   Greetings from a small town outside of Guadalajara, Mexico.
   The Mexican restaurant chains are:

VIPS (not VIP'S)
Sanborns (not Sanborn's)

   There are various munchies here, such as Doritos and Frit-os (I thought it was Fritos).  A company called Barcel puts out a popular potato chip brand called "Chip's."
   Chip's?
   Are they made by some Mexican guy named Chip??
   Call them at 01 800 71 868 68 to complain or to get them to explain.

--------------------------------------------------------
CANDIDE SHOPPED HERE

   Sign in a local shop:

Bazar Barrera
Los mejores clientes del mundo pasan por aqui
The best world's customers pass through here

   I didn't buy anything.

--------------------------------------------------------
VIRTUOUS CYCLES OF SYNCHRONIZED EGGS

   The NEWS reported Greenspan as saying "virtuous circles"--twice, in two separate stories.
   Yes, I meant synchronized eggs.  (It's a new Olympic event.)  The other popular way to serve eggs is Eggs Rancheros.  I'll look into that.

--------------------------------------------------------
TOP "DAY OF THE DEAD" PICKUP LINES

"What's a nice girl like you doing in a cemetery like this?"
"Come here often?"


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Tue Nov  2 20:15:09 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:15:09 -0700
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.131509.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hmm, I've only had the fried variety, and I lived in Northeast WI for 9
years. I didn't know people eat them raw.


-----Original Message-----
From: Joan Houston Hall <jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Cheese curds


>Those are FRIED cheese curds!  Most of us here in Wisconsin eat them fresh
>and squeaky.
>
>
>At 12:19 PM 11/2/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>>Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin? Cheese curds are a
little
>>ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the cheese is stringy (kind
>>of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and can find them nowhere!
>>
>>Amy
>>


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  2 20:54:42 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:54:42 -0500
Subject: 'Schwyzertueuetsch'  (was   Re: Folk etymology) (Was Re:
 Swiss enchiladas)
In-Reply-To: <00be01bf23b6$09b8f6c0$ba7a1bcc@pafracat>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.155442.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've only seen it spelled Romansch, though I don't know if that's official.

At 09:38 AM 10/31/99 -0600, you wrote:
>A possibly more definitive solution as to whether Schwyzertueuetsch is a
>language or just the overall title for a group of very high German dialects
>might be to ascertain what the four official languages are of the Swiss
>Confederation: French, Italian, Roumasch (in its various spellings (which
>one is official?), and ?  Scott Catledge
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Saturday, October 30, 1999 2:02 PM
>Subject: Re: Folk etymology (Was Re: Swiss enchiladas)
>
>
>I don't know who "they" are, but a former student of mine from die Schweiz
>told me the term 'Schwyzertueuetsch' is commonly used (and note his
>spelling, with 'y' and a doubled umlauted vowel, presumably to signal
>lengthening ['ue'  substitutes for my lack of the umlaut diacritic--how do
>you get that, Greg?]).  Trudgill, in his _Sociolinguistics_ (1995 ed., p.
>101) uses this spelling also, but he does note that his example is "based
>on Zurich speech."  My student taperecorded T's example for me, with
>wonderful intonation and very prominent vowel lengthening; I play it every
>year for my Sociolx class.
>
> >Actually, to be more accurate, since you seem to be interested, they tell
>me
> >there is not even such a thing as Schwizert?tsch. There are only local
> >dialects each of which is a bit different, e.g., Z?rit?tsch (Z?rich
> >Deutsch). So they say....
> >
> >Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From Dfcoye at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  2 21:04:17 1999
From: Dfcoye at AOL.COM (Dfcoye at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:04:17 EST
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.160417.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just made some for the first time-- starter culture, rennet plus (in my
case) goat milk fresh from my Saanen and La Mancha -- and I must say they
really do squeek as you chew... they're excellent fresh, but how do you fry
them?  In vegetable oil?

Dale Coye


From lists at LOGOPHILIA.COM  Tue Nov  2 21:07:22 1999
From: lists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:07:22 -0500
Subject: Looking for a dictionary in database format
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.160722.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know of dictionary that's available in database (e.g.,
Access) format? I can find plenty of word lists, and there's no shortage
of look-up-a-word Web sites, but I want something that has words and
definitions and that I can host myself. Something based on the Scrabble
word list (which is what I use for my Word Prospector games; see
http://www.logophilia.com/WordPlay/WordProspector.html) would be ideal.
I'm happy to pay for it, too.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated.

Paul
http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov  2 21:22:55 1999
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:22:55 -0800
Subject: R(h)aeto-Romans(c)h; hold the enchiladas
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991102155346.00b3b2a0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.132255.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I've only seen it spelled Romansch, though I don't know if that's official.

Yep--although that's an English version; there are a few Romansch
versions, depending, as ever, on the dialect area. Rhaeto-Romansh, or
Raeto-Romansh, is another. Raeto-Romance is out there, too, as in
Elizabeth Maxfield's 1941 Raeto-Romance Bilbiography or James Redfern's
1971 Lexical Study of Raeto-Romance and Continguous Italian Dialect Areas.

German uses Raetoromanisch when talking about all the dialects together.
German Swiss will use the simpler Romanisch to refer to R-R.

Peter R.


From pskuhlman at JUNO.COM  Tue Nov  2 20:42:00 1999
From: pskuhlman at JUNO.COM (Patricia S. Kuhlman)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:42:00 -0500
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.154200.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:30:40 -0600 Greg Pulliam <greg at PULLIAM.ORG> writes:
>I grew up in Mississippi and Tennessee in the 60s and 70s.  My dad is
>from Hannibal, MO.  I call them "phillips-head" and "flat-head"
>screwdrivers.  I don't know (as I think about it now) if I picked
>"flat-head" up from Dad or from living in the deep and mid- south.
>
>-
>Gregory J. Pulliam
>Illinois Institute of Technology
>Lewis Department of Humanities
>Chicago, IL   60616
>pulliam at iit.edu

Ditto for me:  I call them  phillips-head (or just phillips) and
flat-head.  I grew up in a rural suburban area north of Chicago in the
50's and 60's, but I am sure that I learned this usage from my father,
not my peers.  My father grew up in the '20's in South Bend, Indiana.

Patricia Kuhlman
Brooklyn, NY
pskuhlman at juno.com


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  2 22:28:53 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 17:28:53 -0500
Subject: Cheese curds
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19991102133055.00703728@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.172853.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is this the same as something called string cheese?

At 01:30 PM 11/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Those are FRIED cheese curds!  Most of us here in Wisconsin eat them fresh
>and squeaky.
>
>
>At 12:19 PM 11/2/1999 -0700, you wrote:
> >Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin? Cheese curds are a little
> >ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the cheese is stringy (kind
> >of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and can find them nowhere!
> >
> >Amy
> >


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Tue Nov  2 22:47:07 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 15:47:07 -0700
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.154707.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, I don't believe so. String cheese, as I know it, is a mozzarella stick
from which you can peel strings of cheese. Cheese curds are, well, curds of
yellow cheese.

-----Original Message-----
From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Cheese curds


>Is this the same as something called string cheese?
>
>At 01:30 PM 11/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>Those are FRIED cheese curds!  Most of us here in Wisconsin eat them fresh
>>and squeaky.
>>
>>
>>At 12:19 PM 11/2/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>> >Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin? Cheese curds are a
little
>> >ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the cheese is stringy
(kind
>> >of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and can find them nowhere!
>> >
>> >Amy
>> >


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  2 22:41:08 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 17:41:08 -0500
Subject: Serbo-Croatian etc.
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.174108.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I erred:  The people are called Bosniacs; the language (now) is called
Bosnian or Bosanski.  A website for the new country lists as languages
"Bosnian, Serbian, and Croatian."

>Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:14:27 -0500
>To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
>Subject: Re: 'Schwyzertueuetsch'  (was   Re: Folk etymology) (Was Re:
>Swiss enchiladas)
>
>Ditto for Bosnia, whose citizens now speak Bosniak (sp?).
>
>At 11:36 AM 10/31/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Is German a language (or just a collection of a bunch of High and Low
>>German dialects)? When dialects/languages are related, isn't this always a
>>sociopolitical question (with "right" answers depending on who you're
>>talking to)? Notice how quickly Serbo-Croatian became Serbian and Croatian
>>(without a blink at linguistic facts).
>>
>>dInIs
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >A possibly more definitive solution as to whether Schwyzertueuetsch is a
>> >language or just the overall title for a group of very high German dialects
>> >might be to ascertain what the four official languages are of the Swiss
>> >Confederation: French, Italian, Roumasch (in its various spellings (which
>> >one is official?), and ?  Scott Catledge
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>> >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> >Sent: Saturday, October 30, 1999 2:02 PM
>> >Subject: Re: Folk etymology (Was Re: Swiss enchiladas)
>> >
>> >
>> >I don't know who "they" are, but a former student of mine from die Schweiz
>> >told me the term 'Schwyzertueuetsch' is commonly used (and note his
>> >spelling, with 'y' and a doubled umlauted vowel, presumably to signal
>> >lengthening ['ue'  substitutes for my lack of the umlaut diacritic--how do
>> >you get that, Greg?]).  Trudgill, in his _Sociolinguistics_ (1995 ed., p.
>> >101) uses this spelling also, but he does note that his example is "based
>> >on Zurich speech."  My student taperecorded T's example for me, with
>> >wonderful intonation and very prominent vowel lengthening; I play it every
>> >year for my Sociolx class.
>> >
>> >>Actually, to be more accurate, since you seem to be interested, they tell
>> >me
>> >>there is not even such a thing as Schwizert?tsch. There are only local
>> >>dialects each of which is a bit different, e.g., Z?rit?tsch (Z?rich
>> >>Deutsch). So they say....
>> >>
>> >>Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu
>>
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>Professor of Linguistics
>>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
>>preston at pilot.msu.edu
>>Office: (517)353-0740
>>Fax: (517)432-2736


From Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU  Wed Nov  3 00:10:41 1999
From: Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU (Bradley, Beth M)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:10:41 -0600
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.181041.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am from Wisconsin and have them regular, raw, all the time.  I have a
friend from Chicago who had never tried them, the name scared her.  When I
was in the Netherlands, I figured there were big enough on cheese to have
them, but they didn't.  Big disappointment.  You can tell how good they are
by how much they squeak.
-Beth Bradley


From Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU  Wed Nov  3 00:12:22 1999
From: Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU (Bradley, Beth M)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:12:22 -0600
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.181222.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Cheese curds can also be white, but you are right on the difference between
them and string cheese.  Often, string cheese is battered and deep fried to
make mozarella sticks.
-Beth Bradley

-----Original Message-----
From: Amy Speed [mailto:speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 4:47 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cheese curds


No, I don't believe so. String cheese, as I know it, is a mozzarella stick
from which you can peel strings of cheese. Cheese curds are, well, curds of
yellow cheese.

-----Original Message-----
From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Cheese curds


>Is this the same as something called string cheese?
>
>At 01:30 PM 11/2/99 -0600, you wrote:
>>Those are FRIED cheese curds!  Most of us here in Wisconsin eat them fresh
>>and squeaky.
>>
>>
>>At 12:19 PM 11/2/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>> >Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin? Cheese curds are a
little
>> >ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the cheese is stringy
(kind
>> >of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and can find them nowhere!
>> >
>> >Amy
>> >


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov  2 22:19:46 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 17:19:46 -0500
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.171946.0500.>

I grew up in western NY state, and it seems to me that we said
"flathead" and "phillips" as well, but I'm not sure if maybe we just
said "regular" and "philips" and I'm making the "flathead" up now...

Lynne

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Wed Nov  3 03:02:36 1999
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 21:02:36 -0600
Subject: Looking for lists of basic compound words
In-Reply-To: <002501bf2576$418272e0$8321d0d8@paul.mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.210236.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Admittedly, basic compound words are not very exciting, but they're really
big in elementary reading education. (Texas is just *wild* for them!)

Any ideas of lists available? An hour or so of poking around in print and
on the web got me exactly nowhere.

Thanks much!

Erin


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Wed Nov  3 07:27:28 1999
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 23:27:28 -0800
Subject: Swiss cheese
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.991102080352.29787E-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.2.NOV.1999.232728.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... The
>half-round of cheese is put right up to the heat, and when the melted
>layer is just about to ooze off the chunk, you scrape it off with a knife
>onto the traditional potato, tomato, and sweet pickle.

Tomato?  I never saw that in Switzerland.  Raclette was always served with
potatoes, cubes of French bread, and sweet gherkins.  The initial order was
3 plates of the raclette, and after that you were charged by the plate.
When you were ready to leave, they just counted the number of stacked
plates.

Of course when I make it at home, I put out the traditional accompaniments
plus anything else I think would be good with melted cheese on it - like
tomato...

Rima


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov  3 12:22:05 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:22:05 -0500
Subject: "Virtuous circle"
In-Reply-To: <009301bf24b4$d795dfa0$8321d0d8@paul.mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.072205.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Paul McFedries wrote:

> This is not quite as popular as "virtuous circle," with only 434 L-N
> citations for 1999. Note, too (insert nod to Fred Shapiro here) that the
> OED doesn't have virtuous cycle (or even vicious cycle, for that matter;
> it does have vicious circle and vicious spiral).

This to me is the most interesting angle: that OED has _vicious circle_,
but not the more common _vicious cycle_.  The earliest usage I can find
for _vicious cycle_ is the following:

1921 _Amer. Jrnl. Sociology_ 27: 327  In typhoid fever, yellow fever, and
malaria the vicious cycle of the disease may be broken by controlling a
certain element in the environment ... as is readily seen there is no
intermediate part of the vicious cycle.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From sarim at CSD.UWM.EDU  Wed Nov  3 13:40:19 1999
From: sarim at CSD.UWM.EDU (Mariann Maris)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:40:19 -0600
Subject: Cheese curds
In-Reply-To: <2717AE3C3A50D311BD5B00C00D0093042B1E28@ems5.uwsp.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.074019.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A few years ago, my husband and I stopped regularly at a small cheese
factory in northern Wisconsin.  We timed our visit in order to buy "fresh"
cheese curds.

        In the cheese making process, milk is dumped into huge stainless
steel vats.  Rennet is mixed into the milk so that the milk solids are
separated from the liquids (little Miss Muppet ate curds and whey).  These
milk solids are chopped into curds and salted after all the whey is
pumped off. (About 10% of milk is solid.)

The little cheese factory we visited no longer exists.  The curds (those
we didn't buy)) were packed into containers and shipped to other cheese
processing plants where the curds were processed into American cheese.

The discussion about cheese curds brings back memories of a time in
Wisconsin where small operative dairy farms peppered the landscape.
Cheese factories were numerous too.  No longer the case ---

Mariann Maris
English Department
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee
P.O. Box 413
Milwaukee, WI 53201
(414)229-4152
sarim at uwm.edu


From ebogne1 at ibm.net  Wed Nov  3 15:30:48 1999
From: ebogne1 at ibm.net (Elizabeth Bogner)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:30:48 -0400
Subject: Books on History of AmE?
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.113048.0400.>

What are the best books out there that provide a basic history
specifically of
American English? I'm looking for a real history, not something with a
contemporary survey like Wolfram and Schilling-Estes.

Thank you.


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Wed Nov  3 20:20:38 1999
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 12:20:38 -0800
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.122038.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I spent 10-12 years working part time (and some full time stints) in my
dad's plumbing/heating contracting business. Around our shop it was
"regular" or "phillips". And usually it was just "Phillips?". The answer
defined the choice.

Bob

Lynne Murphy wrote:

> I grew up in western NY state, and it seems to me that we said
> "flathead" and "phillips" as well, but I'm not sure if maybe we just
> said "regular" and "philips" and I'm making the "flathead" up now...
>
> Lynne


From M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu  Wed Nov  3 16:56:01 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:56:01 -0500
Subject: funeralize, again
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.115601.0500.>

I tried to send this message earlier, and think I screwed up.  Apologies
if you get it twice.

I can't remember who originally posted the "funeralize" query, but I was
just sorting through my files, trying to pare down my worldly
possessions before moving, and found an article to which I'd affixed a
post-it that said "funeralize"--I'd forgotten that I'd read about the
word before.  The article is "A partial Black word list from East Texas"
by Ann R. B. Heald, which appeared in _Linguistic and literary studies
in honor of Archibald A. Hill" (1979, Mouton).  I'd happily send it to
the person who made the query if she (? I think 'she') would send me her
address.  What it says about "funeralize" is that it's commonly used by
Black people, and known by White people, but not used seriously by them.

Lynne

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Nov  3 18:52:50 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:52:50 -0800
Subject: iced tea - Word for the Wise, June 1, 1998
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.105250.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the Merriam-Webster Web site (http://www.m-w.com/wftw/98jun/060198.htm):

(warning:  Barry, don't read this!)

  June is National Iced Tea Month. Iced tea was introduced in
  1904 at the Saint Louis World's Fair when an Englishman
  unable to sell the heated version because of the hot weather
  was inspired to pour the beverage over ice.

But the interesting thing is that the script goes on to discuss the controversy
about the combinations "ice cream" and "ice water" vs. "iced cream" and "iced
water":

  Commentator Alfred Ayres explained, "What is called
  ice-cream is cream iced; hence, properly, iced cream and not
  ice-cream. The product of melted water is ice-water,
  whether it be cold or warm; but water made cold with ice is
  iced water, and not ice-water."

The thing is, I don't agree with his explanation of ice cream.  We do not pour
cream over ice and call it "ice cream".  We freeze the cream, making it ice,
cream ice, if you will.  So I actually find "ice cream" makes perfect sense.  If
you did want a drink of cream poured over ice, then I suspect you'd call it
"iced cream" to differentiate.

Drink for thought,
Andrea


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Nov  3 19:07:15 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:07:15 -0800
Subject: hokey-pokey
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.110715.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So I'm continuing to read old Word for the Wise scripts (at the Merriam-Webster
site http://www.m-w.com), and came across one for "hokey-pokey".  Based on the
description of the origins of "hokey-pokey", which they say are the same as
those for "hocus-pocus", it made me wonder why the English use "hokey-kokey".
My husband says "hokey-kokey" referring to the musical game, and I'm sure I've
heard his English friends use the same term.

Does anyone know?

Andrea
(putting her two cents in, taking her two cents out, ...)


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Wed Nov  3 19:23:01 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:23:01 -0500
Subject: flat-head screw(driver)s
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.142301.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg Pulliam <greg at PULLIAM.ORG> writes:

>>>>>
     [...]
I call them "phillips-head" and "flat-head"
screwdrivers.  I don't know (as I think about it now) if I picked
"flat-head" up from Dad or from living in the deep and mid- south.
<<<<<

And others here also speak of "flat-head screwdrivers".

I'm not a hardware geek by any means, but from shopping in hardware stores for
screws to match the ones I've got for a particular job at home, I've learned
that "flat-head screws" are distinguished from, I think, "oval-head screws" by
the profile of the top, and are so shown on the box. The criterion is, Is the
top literally flat (apart from the cut for the screwdriver head) or does it
bulge into a curved surface? This is a separate dimension from the cut*, which
is what this thread has been about up to now: Phillips vs. straight.

* for lack of a more precise word

So the term may be used differently by
 - the manufacturers (and maybe those who deal professionally with the hardware,
such as carpenters and cabinetmakers) and
 - some of the rest of us.

-- Mark


From Simon at IPFW.EDU  Wed Nov  3 19:28:13 1999
From: Simon at IPFW.EDU (Simon,Beth)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:28:13 -0500
Subject: snicker doodle redux
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.142813.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday, the only bagels left at my new favorite coffee house were
snicker doodle. They were bagels (the Fort Wayne city of churches
version) with a cinnamon sugar coating on top -- what one associates
with cinnamon toast.

A snicker doodle bagel makes a cinnamon raisin bagel seem ...
traditional.

beth simon
assistant professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
simon at ipfw.edu
or
simon at home2.mysolution.com


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Wed Nov  3 20:09:27 1999
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 14:09:27 -0600
Subject: flat-head screw(driver)s
In-Reply-To: <8525681E.006A2C67.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.140927.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, I'm familiar with and use the term "flat-head screw."  And I use
"flat-head screwdriver."  And the latter is not necessarily used with
the former.  There are flat-headed screws which require phillips-head
screwdrivers.


>Greg Pulliam <greg at PULLIAM.ORG> writes:
>
>  >>>>>
>      [...]
>I call them "phillips-head" and "flat-head"
>screwdrivers.  I don't know (as I think about it now) if I picked
>"flat-head" up from Dad or from living in the deep and mid- south.
><<<<<
>
>And others here also speak of "flat-head screwdrivers".
>
>I'm not a hardware geek by any means, but from shopping in hardware stores for
>screws to match the ones I've got for a particular job at home, I've learned
>that "flat-head screws" are distinguished from, I think, "oval-head screws" by
>the profile of the top, and are so shown on the box. The criterion is, Is the
>top literally flat (apart from the cut for the screwdriver head) or does it
>bulge into a curved surface? This is a separate dimension from the cut*, which
>is what this thread has been about up to now: Phillips vs. straight.
>
>* for lack of a more precise word
>
>So the term may be used differently by
>  - the manufacturers (and maybe those who deal professionally with
>the hardware,
>such as carpenters and cabinetmakers) and
>  - some of the rest of us.
>
>-- Mark

-

Greg


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Nov  3 19:55:49 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 11:55:49 -0800
Subject: flat-head screw(driver)s
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.115549.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oh all right, I call them flat-head and phillips screwdrivers, and flat-head
screws (what the English might call counter-sink screws).  Flat-head screws
should be counter-sunk so that they wind up flush with the flat surface.  I
guess the others are round-heads?  I'm not sure.

The thing is, a flat-head screw might require a phillips screwdriver, so one has
nothing to do with the other.

Andrea

Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
>
> And others here also speak of "flat-head screwdrivers".
>
> I'm not a hardware geek by any means, but from shopping in hardware stores for
> screws to match the ones I've got for a particular job at home, I've learned
> that "flat-head screws" are distinguished from, I think, "oval-head screws" by
> the profile of the top, and are so shown on the box. The criterion is, Is the
> top literally flat (apart from the cut for the screwdriver head) or does it
> bulge into a curved surface? This is a separate dimension from the cut*, which
> is what this thread has been about up to now: Phillips vs. straight.
>
> * for lack of a more precise word
>
> So the term may be used differently by
>  - the manufacturers (and maybe those who deal professionally with the hardware,
> such as carpenters and cabinetmakers) and
>  - some of the rest of us.
>
> -- Mark


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov  3 20:29:08 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:29:08 -0500
Subject: flat-head screw(driver)s
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.152908.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ditto for me.

dInIs

>Yes, I'm familiar with and use the term "flat-head screw."  And I use
>"flat-head screwdriver."  And the latter is not necessarily used with
>the former.  There are flat-headed screws which require phillips-head
>screwdrivers.
>
>
>>Greg Pulliam <greg at PULLIAM.ORG> writes:
>>
>>  >>>>>
>>      [...]
>>I call them "phillips-head" and "flat-head"
>>screwdrivers.  I don't know (as I think about it now) if I picked
>>"flat-head" up from Dad or from living in the deep and mid- south.
>><<<<<
>>
>>And others here also speak of "flat-head screwdrivers".
>>
>>I'm not a hardware geek by any means, but from shopping in hardware stores for
>>screws to match the ones I've got for a particular job at home, I've learned
>>that "flat-head screws" are distinguished from, I think, "oval-head screws" by
>>the profile of the top, and are so shown on the box. The criterion is, Is the
>>top literally flat (apart from the cut for the screwdriver head) or does it
>>bulge into a curved surface? This is a separate dimension from the cut*, which
>>is what this thread has been about up to now: Phillips vs. straight.
>>
>>* for lack of a more precise word
>>
>>So the term may be used differently by
>>  - the manufacturers (and maybe those who deal professionally with
>>the hardware,
>>such as carpenters and cabinetmakers) and
>>  - some of the rest of us.
>>
>>-- Mark
>
>-
>
>Greg

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Nov  3 20:21:11 1999
From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:21:11 -0500
Subject: iced tea - Word for the Wise, June 1, 1998
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.152111.0500.>

Or a white russian . . . the favorite drink of an ex of mine and also of the most
excellent "Dude" (Jeff Bridges in The Big Lebowski).

"A. Vine" wrote:

> The thing is, I don't agree with his explanation of ice cream.  We do not pour
> cream over ice and call it "ice cream".  We freeze the cream, making it ice,
> cream ice, if you will.  So I actually find "ice cream" makes perfect sense.  If
> you did want a drink of cream poured over ice, then I suspect you'd call it
> "iced cream" to differentiate.
>
> Drink for thought,
> Andrea

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                         "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  3 21:52:45 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 16:52:45 EST
Subject: Gay Panic defense, Mgt. Citizenship  Behavior
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.165245.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Guanajauto, Mexico.  That means Place of the Frogs (not guano).  It holds a Cervantes fastival...Oaxaca string cheese is famous and tastes quite good (FWIW in the cheese discussion)..."Hokey Pokey" was popularized in a song in the early 1800s...(Danny) Long time, no hear.

--------------------------------------------------------
GAY PANIC DEFENSE

   This defense was raised in the high-profile case of the man accused of beating college student Matthew Shepard.  The trial is in Laramie, Wyoming.
   The "Gay Panic" defense was thrown out.  It's no "Twinkies," but what else is?

--------------------------------------------------------
MANAGEMENT CITIZENSHIP BEHAVIOR

   From the NEWS (from Sherwood Ross of Reuters), 2 November 1999, pg. 34, col. 2:

_Modern Managers Embracing Empoerment_
   STURGIS, S.D.--Are managers falling behind the times in today's changing workplace?  "There's been a big push to have employees work harder and smarter, but not a lot of attention is being paid to what managers should contribute to the new workplace," said one researcher after an in-depth study of the operations of 108 companies, large and small.
   "The nature of the new bargain proposed by management for the workplace entails greater mental and physical effort on the part of the workers in exchange for benefits that are often left vague and undefined," said sociologist Randy Hodson of (the?--ed.) Ohio State University, Columbus, an authority on corporate responsibility.  (OSU or the professor?--ed.)
   Probably 60 percent of managers do not display adequate "management citizenship behavior (MCB)," said Hodson, using a term he coined to define what he believes is their responsibility. (...)


From GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA  Wed Nov  3 23:15:56 1999
From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA (No Name Available)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:15:56 PST
Subject: flat-head screw(driver)s
In-Reply-To: <v04220801b44646300036@[216.47.144.24]>
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.151556.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No one has so far mentioned the third type of screwdriver, called in Canada
a "Robertson." It's for those screw-heads that have neither a slot nor a cross,
but a square indentation (or don't you have those down there?). I suppose you
can use a Phillips for them, but a Robertson works much better.

And now I'm off to find the vodka and orange juice (you do call that a
"screwdriver," don't you?).

Barbara Harris.


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Nov  3 23:36:27 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 15:36:27 -0800
Subject: flat-head screw(driver)s
In-Reply-To: <991103.152043.PST.GRADMA@uvvm.UVic.CA>
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.153627.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've always heard them called square drive or by a more generic term like
security screws and the driver, a square-headed screw driver; never heard
it called "Robertson" screwdriver. I would think a Phillips would slip out
of a square hole because the pitch of the point (or blades, I think
they're called) on a Phillips (which comes
in different sizes all of which are also a different pitch) wouldn't
fit very precisely in the corners of a square hole.

A "torx" head and one other that sort of looks like the international
warning symbol for radiation are a couple more that have their own special
screwdrivers. The "one-way security" screw is installed with a standard
(slotted) screwdriver. I'm not sure how it is removed--pliers, I guess.


allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


 On Wed, 3 Nov 1999 GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA wrote:

> No one has so far mentioned the third type of screwdriver, called in Canada
> a "Robertson." It's for those screw-heads that have neither a slot nor a cross,
> but a square indentation (or don't you have those down there?). I suppose you
> can use a Phillips for them, but a Robertson works much better.
>
> And now I'm off to find the vodka and orange juice (you do call that a
> "screwdriver," don't you?).
>
> Barbara Harris.
>


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Thu Nov  4 00:04:24 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:04:24 -0600
Subject: Screwdrivers
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.180424.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: Patricia S. Kuhlman <pskuhlman at JUNO.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: Screwdrivers


> On Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:30:40 -0600 Greg Pulliam <greg at PULLIAM.ORG> writes:
> >I grew up in Mississippi and Tennessee in the 60s and 70s.  My dad is
> >from Hannibal, MO.  I call them "phillips-head" and "flat-head"
> >screwdrivers.  I don't know (as I think about it now) if I picked
> >"flat-head" up from Dad or from living in the deep and mid- south.
> >
> >-
> >Gregory J. Pulliam
> >Illinois Institute of Technology
> >Lewis Department of Humanities
> >Chicago, IL   60616
> >pulliam at iit.edu
>
> Ditto for me:  I call them  phillips-head (or just phillips) and
> flat-head.  I grew up in a rural suburban area north of Chicago in the
> 50's and 60's, but I am sure that I learned this usage from my father,
> not my peers.  My father grew up in the '20's in South Bend, Indiana.
>
> Patricia Kuhlman
> Brooklyn, NY
> pskuhlman at juno.com

I grew up in small town northern and central Florida in the 40s (Orlando
boasted of its 39,000 population).  My father was from small town SWGeorgia
& Florida panhandle; my mother was from rural central Mississippi.  Both of
them said "screwdriver" and much later on, when I saw my first screw with a
plus sign slot instead of a single slot, it was called a "Phillips" or a
"Phillips screwdriver."  "Screwdriver" by itself always meant a single slot;
phillips (with/without "screwdriver") meant a plus sign slot.  My friends in
Winter Park, FL (a Yankee paradise: three of my graduating class were born
in Winter Park; three in Indianapolis, etc.) who worked on their cars all
used the same identifiers.  "Phillips" and "screwdriver" were the common
terms used.


From gbarrett at americandialect.org  Thu Nov  4 01:07:08 1999
From: gbarrett at americandialect.org (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 20:07:08 -0500
Subject: flat-head screw(driver)s
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.200708.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Wednesday, November 03, 1999, A. Maberry
<maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU> wrote:

>A "torx" head and one other that sort of looks like the
international
>warning symbol for radiation are a couple more that have their
own special
>screwdrivers. The "one-way security" screw is installed with a
standard
>(slotted) screwdriver. I'm not sure how it is removed--pliers,
>I guess.

Then there's "hex wrenches" and "Allen wrenches" which, as far
as I can recall, are the same: six-sided, long metal tools used
(by me, anyway) to take screws out of delicate places in computers.

--
Grant Barrett

http://www.worldnewyork.com/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  4 01:15:57 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 20:15:57 EST
Subject: Mexican shoes; Mexican ice cream
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.201557.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MEXICAN SHOES

   Mexicans love their shoes, and it appears that they use American slang to name them.
   There are shoe stores everywhere!  Sometimes there are four of them in a row!
   Large stores include Canada (based in Guadalajara) and 3 Hermanos.
   Canada has a shoe called Yuppie.
   Dog names are very popular for shoes.  A popular brand is called Dingo.  I'll write down the others when I see the next 3 Hermanos.  Is this from Hush Puppies and the U.S. slang for "dog," or have the Spanish always used this?

--------------------------------------------------------
MEXICAN ICE CREAM

   Nestle Helados offers:

Copa fiesta
Bogart
Belle epoque
Sundae
Velero
Banana split
Copadrisima
Rompecafe

   When did Bogart become an ice cream?

--------------------------------------------------------
KIKE (continued)

   There is a big sign over a store here in Guanajuarto that reads: "KIKE."
   I was told that it stands for Enrique.


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  4 02:12:56 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:12:56 EST
Subject: hokey-pokey
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.211256.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the community where I grew up in a small steel town in the suburbs of
Birmingham, AL, all the children used to play a game called the "hokey pokey,
" the words of which were as follows:
            "You put your right foot in,
              You take your right foot out,
              You put your right foot in,
               And you shake it all about,
               Do the hokey pokey,
               And you turn yourself around,
               That''s what it's all about,
               Hokey pokey!"
Then, we'd chant the same tune, and do the accompanying movements,
substituting "left foot," "right hand," "left hand," and other body parts.

I don't recall anybody's using the phrase, "hokey kokey."  Besides, I think
it would have been a bit difficult for most of the children to enunciate at
that age (6-10) and at that tempo.
                    PAT


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Thu Nov  4 02:15:52 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 18:15:52 -0800
Subject: Indigenous Languages of the Americas
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.181552.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another one from the Scout Report.

1.  The Society for the Study of the Indigenous Languages of the
Americas (SSILA)
http://trc2.ucdavis.edu/ssila/default.asp

Sponsored by the Native American Language Center at the
University of
California-Davis, the SSILA's site serves as a superb resource
for
those studying Indigenous American languages. In addition to
information about the society and its mission, and bulletins
about
upcoming events in the field of Indigenous language study, the
site
features a searchable comprehensive listing of articles on
American
Indian Languages in more than 100 journals from 1988 to the
present;
a Dissertation & Thesis Index, publishing abstracts of over 200
dissertations and theses on American Indian languages and
related
topics; a searchable database of notices and reviews for over
650
relevant books; an extensive and briefly annotated directory of
Internet links for additional research; and a catalog of
language
learning materials, including ordering information, available
for
over 200 North American Indian languages. Membership information
and
a directory of SSILA members are also posted on-site.


From highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM  Thu Nov  4 04:48:31 1999
From: highbob at POP.MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 23:48:31 -0500
Subject: Mexican shoes; Mexican ice cream
Message-ID: <WED.3.NOV.1999.234831.0500.>

What does it taste like:  a Lucky Strike or a Camel no-filter?

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> MEXICAN ICE CREAM
>
>    When did Bogart become an ice cream?

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                                                                                                    "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Thu Nov  4 14:39:53 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:39:53 -0600
Subject: "Nitpicky" (was RE: "Virtuous circle")
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.083953.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Ticky" and "nitpicky" were synonyms in 1940's in north Florida.  I did not
know what a nit was until 1948 when I read John Brown's explanation of why
he murdered all the children of slave-owners that he could, "Nits make
gnats."
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul McFedries <lists at MCFEDRIES.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 7:49 AM
Subject: "Nitpicky" (was RE: "Virtuous circle")


> I would classify "nitpicky" as perfectly acceptable usage. As my
> "legitimate source" I offer Lexis-Nexis, which reports nearly 1,000
> citations. However, the earliest occurs in a Washington Post story from
> April 21, 1980, so it must be fairly new. That explains why "older"
> dictionaries (OED, Webster's Third New International) don't have it. I
> did find it in the recently-published Canadian Oxford Dictionary, thus
> solidifying its claim as my favorite lexicon. Can anyone find nitpicky
> in any other sources (Encarta, perhaps)?
>
> Paul
> http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/
>
> > I don't intend to nitpick, either, but this is not the first time
> > I've encountered the verb, "nitpick," used as adjective, as in
> > "nitpicky." Is this usage geographically determined, or has it been
> > validated via some legitimate source?  The first time I heard a
> > speaker use it (around 1989), another listener "corrected" her
> > (This interplay occurred several times.)  What's the word on this
> > issue?
> >                     PAT


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Nov  4 15:37:20 1999
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:37:20 -0500
Subject: Mason & Dixon Line: note
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.103720.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is merely a follow up to some posts in early August of this year,
with reference to the usage of 'Mason and Dixon line'.  Still don't know
when the differences in the usage of 'Mason and Dixon' line came into
use, but there are marked differences.  Standard reference works tend to
ignore the issue of differences in usage.  At the least, it appears that
there is a strong argument for using a regional-usage label for the most
encompassing definition.  The question of which came first, the
'regional' definition or the national definition, is yet to be answered.

For that matter, in linguistic studies, does the term 'regional usage'
refer to a usage from which a more widely used definition evolves, or
does the term refer to the usage by a population subset, which evolved
from a more widely used definition?  Or. . . ?

The standard dictionary definition for Mason Dixon line refers to an
east-west  line that extends for much of the boundary between
Pennsylvania (of today) and Maryland.  Microsoft's Encarta 98
Encyclopedia also includes, for Mason-Dixon line, a north-south line,
which is a boundary between Maryland and Delaware.  I, a native of
Delaware, had been taught that the line also included the portion of the
east-west line where the southern boundary of Delaware meets Maryland.

Mason-Dixon Line, in reference to the east-west southern boundary of
Delaware appears in a recent newspaper article.  The item appears in
_State News Sunday_, subtitled _Maryland State News_ and _The Downstate
Daily_ (Dover, DE), vol. 100 #90, 31 October 1999, pp. 25, 28.  Titled
'Delmar: the best of both worlds', by Aaron B. Kellam.

"Straddling the Mason-Dixon Line along the Delaware Maryland border,
tiny Delmar has been dubbed 'the town too big for one state.'" (p.25,
col. 6)  Quoting town historian and local resident George Truitt, about
a consolidation of nearby schools in both states, "The kids got the
parents to forget the dividing line (Mason-Dixon Line) (sic) within the
town.  If it had been left up to the old people, it would have still
been the same problem."  (p. 28, col. 5)

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Nov  4 15:56:25 1999
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:56:25 -0500
Subject: Mason & Dixon Line: note
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.105625.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

[This note was originally sent to an incorrect address for the list.
If, somehow, two copies make it to your mailbox, my sincere apologies.
Remember, the apologies are only for instances of duplicate copies.  For
single copy, no apology, even if you feel that such would be warranted.
{:- )   ]

This is merely a follow up to some posts in early August of this year,
with reference to the usage of 'Mason and Dixon line'.  Still don't know
when the differences in the usage of 'Mason and Dixon' line came into
use, but there are marked differences.  Standard reference works tend to
ignore the issue of differences in usage.  At the least, it appears that
there is a strong argument for using a regional-usage label for the most
encompassing definition.  The question of which came first, the
'regional' definition or the national definition, is yet to be answered.

For that matter, in linguistic studies, does the term 'regional usage'
refer to a usage from which a more widely used definition evolves, or
does the term refer to the usage by a population subset, which evolved
from a more widely used definition?  Or. . . ?

The standard dictionary definition for Mason Dixon line refers to an
east-west  line that extends for much of the boundary between
Pennsylvania (of today) and Maryland.  Microsoft's Encarta 98
Encyclopedia also includes, for Mason-Dixon line, a north-south line,
which is a boundary between Maryland and Delaware.  I, a native of
Delaware, had been taught that the line also included the portion of the
east-west line where the southern boundary of Delaware meets Maryland.

Mason-Dixon Line, in reference to the east-west southern boundary of
Delaware appears in a recent newspaper article.  The item appears in
_State News Sunday_, subtitled _Maryland State News_ and _The Downstate
Daily_ (Dover, DE), vol. 100 #90, 31 October 1999, pp. 25, 28.  Titled
'Delmar: the best of both worlds', by Aaron B. Kellam.

"Straddling the Mason-Dixon Line along the Delaware Maryland border,
tiny Delmar has been dubbed 'the town too big for one state.'" (p.25,
col. 6)  Quoting town historian and local resident George Truitt, about
a consolidation of nearby schools in both states, "The kids got the
parents to forget the dividing line (Mason-Dixon Line) (sic) within the
town.  If it had been left up to the old people, it would have still
been the same problem."  (p. 28, col. 5)

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  4 16:56:14 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 11:56:14 EST
Subject: "Slept like a baby"
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.115614.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"I slept like a baby.  I woke up in the middle of the night and demanded breastfeeding."
--some comedian (I forget which one)

   One member of my group woke up early and thought we had an earthquake last night.  Another group member woke up to the sound of the church bells at 6 a.m.  I "slept like a baby."
   Why is the saying "slept like a baby"?  Did we cover this before?
   I don't have the OED handy.  Maybe someone from the OED can straighten this out.


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Nov  4 17:29:18 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:29:18 -0800
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.092918.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fresh (unbattered and uncooked) cheese curds are sold
in most dairy co-op and cheese factory stores in Utah,
Idaho, and Wyoming, and can also be bought in some
grocery stores.

On the related "string cheese" subject, pasta filata
is a process that is used to manufacture several
different Italian cheeses, not just mozzarella, e.g.,
scamorza, bocconcini, provola.  I don't know what the
pasta filata process actually is, but I suspect it
still starts with curds.

JIM

--- Amy Speed <speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM> wrote:
> Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin?
> Cheese curds are a little
> ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the
> cheese is stringy (kind
> of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and
> can find them nowhere!
>
> Amy
>






=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Thu Nov  4 17:16:09 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:16:09 -0700
Subject: "Slept like a baby"
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.101609.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My 10-month-old baby sleeps long and peacefully through the night and wakes
up refreshed. Besides, they'll sleep almost anywhere. They have an amazing
ability to relax.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 9:56 AM
Subject: "Slept like a baby"


>"I slept like a baby.  I woke up in the middle of the night and demanded
breastfeeding."
>--some comedian (I forget which one)
>
>   One member of my group woke up early and thought we had an earthquake
last night.  Another group member woke up to the sound of the church bells
at 6 a.m.  I "slept like a baby."
>   Why is the saying "slept like a baby"?  Did we cover this before?
>   I don't have the OED handy.  Maybe someone from the OED can straighten
this out.


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Nov  4 18:47:14 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:47:14 -0800
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.104714.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Okay, my curiosity was aroused and I found a web site
at http://www.mozzco.com/mozzhist.html that gives an
explanation, in english, of pasta filata and the
making of mozzarella and other pasta filata cheeses:
the process starts with curd.  (It states there are no
buffalo dairies in the USA, but I believe one started
operating in California within the last couple of
years and produces fresh mozzarella di bufala.)

How did we get from dialects to cheesemaking, anyway?

JIM

--- James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
...
>
> On the related "string cheese" subject, pasta filata
> is a process that is used to manufacture several
> different Italian cheeses, not just mozzarella,
> e.g.,
> scamorza, bocconcini, provola.  I don't know what
> the
> pasta filata process actually is, but I suspect it
> still starts with curds.
>
> JIM



=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Nov  4 18:56:18 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:56:18 -0800
Subject: "Slept like a baby"
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.105618.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>    One member of my group woke up early and thought we had an earthquake last night.

At 12:30 AM last night, Pacific Standard time, there was definitely an
earthquake which I felt in the Bay Area.  It lasted about 25 seconds.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Nov  4 19:32:25 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 11:32:25 -0800
Subject: Off-topic:  Mozzarella di bufala
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.113225.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For those of you who are interested, here is the company:

http://www.italcheese.com/

However, they don't mention the water buffaloes on their Web site.  This article
talks about them:

http://www.californiaheartland.org/archive/hl_301/buffmozz.htm

Andrea


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Nov  4 18:38:43 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:38:43 -0500
Subject: "Slept like a baby"
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.133843.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I heard somewhere on NPR in the last couple of days that babies sleep
so soundly because they have a relatively poor sense of hearing.  My 8
and 9-1/2 year-olds can sleep through a lot of noise but we get
surprised when what we consider nominal conversation wakes them.

Regards,
David K. Barnhart


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  4 20:01:09 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 15:01:09 EST
Subject: Hoosier
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.150109.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It was published in 1992, but I've just now found an excellent article on the
meaning and usage of "Hoosier" in the Indiana Monthly Magazine:

http://www.alumni.indiana.edu/fun/hoosier.html

- Allan Metcalf


From elliottn at INDIANA.EDU  Thu Nov  4 20:32:42 1999
From: elliottn at INDIANA.EDU (Nancy Carol Elliott)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 15:32:42 -0500
Subject: PhiladelphiaRe: Hoosier
In-Reply-To: <0.1e657277.25534005@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.153242.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know the answer to this question?

Was the speech of whites of non-Italian ancestry in Philadelphia ever
variably rhotic or non-rhotic?


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Thu Nov  4 10:31:42 1999
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:31:42 +0000
Subject: Books on History of AmE?
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.103142.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> What are the best books out there that provide a basic history
> specifically of
> American English? I'm looking for a real history, not something with a
> contemporary survey like Wolfram and Schilling-Estes.
>
> Thank you.
>

H.L. Menken, _The American Language_ (1936)
W.N. Francis, something like American English
J.L. Dillard

These are the closest I've been able to come to a "real history" with the
libraries at my access.  For some reason, I don't have these in my own
bibliography, which is shocking.  You might also want to check out the ADS
website, because this question has come up before.

Good luck,
Aaron

________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From gibbens at erols.com  Thu Nov  4 21:08:23 1999
From: gibbens at erols.com (Elizabeth Gibbens)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 16:08:23 -0500
Subject: Winnowy
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.160823.0500.GIBBENS@EROLS.COM>

Hello everyone,

        A friend of mine recently spotted the word "winnowy" on the front page of USA Today. The word was used to describe a woman, in the way "willowy" is usually used. Should we assume a typo, or is this a new adjective to desribe someone who has come out of her shell, so to speak?

                                                                                Elizabeth
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From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Thu Nov  4 21:09:09 1999
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 14:09:09 -0700
Subject: Cheese curds
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.140909.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From: Amy Speed <speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM>


: Has anyone seen cheese curds outside of Wisconsin? Cheese curds are a
: little ball of battered yellow cheese and fried until the cheese is
: stringy (kind of like mozzarella sticks). I'm craving them, and can
: find them nowhere!

FTR, i've seen unbattered, uncooked cheese curds for sale at the
Bird-in-Hand Farmer's Market (which is only vaguely a farmer's market) in
Bird-in-Hand PA. They're also, of course, part of the odd but pleasant
Quebecois dish, poutine(sp?).

And in a desperate attempt to bring this even remotely on-topic, anyone know
why they're called "curds"?

David Bowie                                       Department of English
Assistant Professor                            Brigham Young University
db.list at pmpkn.net              http://humanities.byu.edu/faculty/bowied
   The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  4 22:27:27 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 17:27:27 EST
Subject: Books on History of AmE?
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.172727.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  Mencken is still the most comprehensive historian, but look for this
relatively updated version:

H.L. Mencken, The American Language. One-volume abridged edition. Edited by
Raven I. McDavid, Jr. New York: Knopf, 1963.

   Marckwardt's basic history was revised to this:

Albert H. Marckwardt, American English; revised by J.L. Dillard. New York :
Oxford University Press, 1980.

  And then, if you're just interested in the development of the American
vocabulary, you might look for (ahem):

David K. Barnhart and Allan A. Metcalf, America in So Many Words.  Boston:
Houghton Mifflin, 1997.

- Allan Metcalf


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 00:29:47 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 19:29:47 EST
Subject: CYBERCHAT(TER)
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.192947.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone heard before the term, "cyberchatter"? Recently, my cousin sent me
an e-mail in which he used the term.  In fact, he claimed that he coined it.
In jest, I sent him a message, reducing the term simply to "cyberchat."   Any
word on the viabilily of such a term?  Has it been used before?
                            PAT


From ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  5 02:30:39 1999
From: ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM (Jane Clark)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 18:30:39 PST
Subject: Eccentric labels
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.183039.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks for the message. I was wondering where my newsletter was!


>From: AAllan at AOL.COM
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Eccentric labels
>Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 13:53:49 EST
>
>ADS members should be getting their copies of the "September" Newsletter of
>the American Dialect Society by first-class mail (airmail outside the U.S.)
>this week. I must apologize for the look of the mailing labels on many
>copies. They printed off-center vertically, so the member's name is
>somewhat
>truncated.
>
>Rather than delay further, I decided to go ahead with the mailing using the
>eccentric labels. Most of the copies should make it to the proper address,
>but some may not. If you don't get your copy of the newsletter by about
>Nov.
>12 at the latest, let me know and I'll send a relpacement.
>
>And well before the January issue, we'll take steps to ensure that future
>labels are on target.
>
>- Allan Metcalf

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From greg at PULLIAM.ORG  Fri Nov  5 02:44:52 1999
From: greg at PULLIAM.ORG (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 20:44:52 -0600
Subject: fat-pipe
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.204452.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From http://macweek.zdnet.com/1999/10/31/rfiwed.html

"Joe Six-Pack sits down at his iMac and opens his consumer
page-layout or word processor application. Or maybe he's using one of
the new information appliances and opens the application off the
server. (Since his fat-pipe Internet connection is always on -- or he
has a server in his closet -- the server-based software launches
fairly quickly.) For argument's sake, Joe has at least a DSL or
cable-modem connection, and he's also the proud owner of a FireWire
digital camera and camcorder."
-
Greg


From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Nov  5 04:03:25 1999
From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 20:03:25 PST
Subject: Philadelphia
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.200325.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: Nancy Carol Elliott <elliottn at INDIANA.EDU>
>
>Was the speech of whites of non-Italian ancestry in Philadelphia ever
>variably rhotic or non-rhotic?

I've never read anything to suggest it was. (Then again, I didn't know
Italian ancestry had anything to do with it, either...)

This is from William Van Riper's 1957 dissertation, "The Loss of
Post-Vocalic _R_ in the Eastern United States":

"In Philadelphia, the "r-less" type is not now current. It is significant
that, although Philadelphia was a major colonial port, its connections with
England were largely commercial. It had no royal governor and fewer English
officials to provide contact with London society. Moreover, the Quakers, who
constituted the dominant group in the Philadelphia area, were not received
socially in English society. Class distinctions were well marked in Colonial
times in the present "r-less" areas, but in Philadelphia they probably were
less well-defined. Thus the motivation for the spread of the "r-less" type
was lacking. The "r-less" type was undoubtedly introduced into the present
"r-less" areas with the early settlers, but its spread has evidently been
closely allied to its acceptance as a prestige feature...(p.98)"

I imagine that Kurath would have agreed with his student's explanation.
Wolfram and Schilling-Estes might too; they write:

"Another of the nation's earliest cultural and linguistic centers was
Philadelphia, established in the 1680s by Quakers under the leadership of
William Penn. The Quaker movement was organized in [rhotic] North England
and the northern Midlands, and so [?] Philadelphia was, from the first, far
less like Southern England in its speech habits than New England. (p.98
again!)"

But what Wolfram and Schilling-Estes say about New York startled me:

"Interestingly, one of the most stereotypically r-less regions in this
country, New York City (as evidenced in phrases like "toity-toid
street"...), began life as an r-ful speech area. In fact, it wasn't until at
least the mid-1800s that r-lessness, which spread into the city from New
England, was fully established there. (p.95)"

I am willing to believe this theory, but on what grounds (and by whom) was
it constructed? Is it perhaps an argument laid out in the chapter
"Rhoticity" in William Downes' _Language and Society_ (1984)?

I am eager to learn what type(s?) of evidence were found to support this
rather exciting claim.

If true, it casts doubt on the theory that New Orleans' "toity-toid" vowel
came from New York through close commercial contact in the early 19th c,
because New York wouldn't have had it to give...

DEJ

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From 10sne1 at SCAN.MISSOURI.ORG  Fri Nov  5 07:05:48 1999
From: 10sne1 at SCAN.MISSOURI.ORG (Kevin Dawson)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:05:48 -0800
Subject: Prejudice based on grammer, diction, or dialect
Message-ID: <THU.4.NOV.1999.230548.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am trying to do research on linguistic barriers to social and economic advancement .  Do you know of any resources available? If so, what would I need to do to gain access to them?  Thanks very much for any help I can obtain from you.  Sincerely, Laura Chamberlain.  1Osne1 at scan.missouri.org.
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From gbarrett at americandialect.org  Fri Nov  5 12:02:31 1999
From: gbarrett at americandialect.org (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 07:02:31 -0500
Subject: fat-pipe
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.070231.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

Sure. Internet connections are like water. The bigger the pipe,
the more water you can get at once.

Usually, in my experience, used as a noun, "fat pipe," though
the adjective version doesn't seem too novel. Pipe is the key word
here, though compare to "thin client."

I've taken to saying, and I do hope you all will pardon me,
things like, "I'm going to take my PowerBook to campus and suck off
the big Internet tit." I dunno where I picked it up, but I don't
think I made it up.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 16:19:44 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:19:44 EST
Subject: PhiladelphiaRe: Hoosier
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.111944.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm pretty sure that extensive non-rhoticism never caught on in Phildelphia.
Of course, there would have been anglophiles who affected the uppper-crust
accent used by the pretentious in various parts of the US in the 19th century
and on into the 20th century (e.g., wealthy old lady speech of 1930s movies),
but I feel pretty sure that the white vernacular was pretty rhotic.

*****in reply to:
Was the speech of whites of non-Italian ancestry in Philadelphia ever
variably rhotic or non-rhotic?


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Fri Nov  5 16:32:23 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:32:23 -0500
Subject: nits...
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.113223.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET> wrote:

>>>>>
"Ticky" and "nitpicky" were synonyms in 1940's in north Florida.  I did not
know what a nit was until 1948 when I read John Brown's explanation of why
he murdered all the children of slave-owners that he could, "Nits make
gnats."
<<<<<

Hmm, I've heard (or more likely read) the saying as "nits will be lice".
Specifically, a nits is "the egg or young of a parasitic insect, such as a
louse" (_Am.Herit.Dict._). So nit-picking is: going through someone's hair (or
fur), often literally with a fine-tooth comb, and picking out the nits to
prevent a new generation of lice. (As far as I know.)

I've never heard of parasitic gnats; maybe the word was used more loosely, or
(more likely, IMHO) alliteration trumped entomology.

-- Mark


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 16:54:09 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:54:09 EST
Subject: Prejudice based on grammer, diction, or dialect
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.115409.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Somoeone writes:

<<I am trying to do research on linguistic barriers to social and economic
advancement .  Do you know of any resources available? If so, what would I
need to do to gain access to them?  Thanks very much for any help I can
obtain from you.  Sincerely, Laura Chamberlain.  1Osne1 at scan.missouri.org.>>

My answer: yes, I do know a resource. It is called "the library."


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 16:57:58 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 11:57:58 EST
Subject: Philadelphia
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.115758.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Whose theory was this? I've never heard this before. Since that vowel was (as
I recall) quite prominent in the speech of African-Americans throughout the
South, I've never connected it historically with New York-ese.

*****in reply to:
... the theory that New Orleans' "toity-toid" vowel
came from New York through close commercial contact in the early 19th c,
because New York wouldn't have had it to give...


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 17:00:05 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:00:05 EST
Subject: Books on History of AmE?
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.120005.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'd start with one of the really good books on the history of Engish, e.g.,
Pyles and Algeo, which has extensive teratment of the history of American
English as well as British.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 17:03:05 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:03:05 EST
Subject: "Slept like a baby"
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.120305.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<<   Why is the saying "slept like a baby"?>>

Barry, because babies are innocent, they are not kept awake by guilty
consciences or concupiscent thoughts. Sounds very Wordsworthian.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Nov  5 17:46:34 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 12:46:34 -0500
Subject: nits...
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.124634.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Parasitic gnats fly in and out of empty spaces in sentences.

dInIs (sorry)

>Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET> wrote:
>
>>>>>>
>"Ticky" and "nitpicky" were synonyms in 1940's in north Florida.  I did not
>know what a nit was until 1948 when I read John Brown's explanation of why
>he murdered all the children of slave-owners that he could, "Nits make
>gnats."
><<<<<
>
>Hmm, I've heard (or more likely read) the saying as "nits will be lice".
>Specifically, a nits is "the egg or young of a parasitic insect, such as a
>louse" (_Am.Herit.Dict._). So nit-picking is: going through someone's hair (or
>fur), often literally with a fine-tooth comb, and picking out the nits to
>prevent a new generation of lice. (As far as I know.)
>
>I've never heard of parasitic gnats; maybe the word was used more loosely, or
>(more likely, IMHO) alliteration trumped entomology.
>
>-- Mark

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov  5 19:02:45 1999
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 14:02:45 -0500
Subject: Philadelphia
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.140245.0500.>

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> Whose theory was this? I've never heard this before. Since that vowel was (as
> I recall) quite prominent in the speech of African-Americans throughout the
> South, I've never connected it historically with New York-ese.
>
> *****in reply to:
> ... the theory that New Orleans' "toity-toid" vowel
> came from New York through close commercial contact in the early 19th c,
> because New York wouldn't have had it to give...

I looked in Dillard's ALL AMERICAN ENGLISH or A HISTORY OF AMERICAN ENGLISH but
couldn't find the discussion I remember; it's in AMERICAN TALK: WHERE OUR WORDS
CAME FROM that he attributes the resemblance to maritime pidgin influence on
both.  See the chapter on "New Orleans and Louisiana" esp. pp. 46ff.

--
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl            tel:
(740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:  (740)
593-2818


From M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu  Fri Nov  5 19:13:54 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 14:13:54 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: General Linguistics position at Baylor U, Waco, TX]
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.141354.0500.>

Hi all,

Here's the ad for my job, if anyone would like it.  Although I didn't quite
fit into the religious milieu here, you very well might (active
participation in a Christian church is a job requirement--well, they say
that they are open to Jews as well, but there isn't much evidence for
this).  (Warning:  according to Baylor, Mormons aren't Christians.
Unitarianism doesn't count either.  Both of these are taught in the
Religion Dept class "Contemporary Cults in the US".)  It's a well-endowed
private school, so life can be pretty good here, and the English Dept is
wonderful to the linguists.  Anyone would like more info about the position
can e-mail me privately.

Lynne



> Applications welcome for the following position.  Interviews for
> semi-finalist candidates will be held at the MLA Convention in Chicago
> 27-30 December.  For more information on Linguistics at Baylor, see
> www.baylor.edu/~Linguistics.
>
> Assistant Professor
> A tenure-track position, beginning Fall 2000, Linguistics.  Teaching
> duties may include syntax, semantics/pragmatics, cross-cultural
> linguistics, linguistics and literature.  Demonstrated commitment to
> teaching excellence;  three-course assignment per semester.  Baylor is a
> Baptist University affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of
> Texas.  As an Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity Employer, Baylor
> encourages minorities, women, veterans, and persons with disabilities to
> apply.  To ensure full consideration of your application, it should be
> completed by 13 December 1999.  The position requires a letter of
> application, a c.v. and a dossier including at least three letters of
> recommendation, sent to Maurice Hunt, Chair, Department of English, PO
> Box 97404, Baylor University, Waco, TX 76798-7404.
>

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy

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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 21:26:49 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:26:49 EST
Subject: "Place in history"
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.162649.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PLACE IN HISTORY

   An article in today's NEWS by Robert J. Samuelson (reprinted from the Washington Post), is "History Will Not Be Kind To Clinton."  The article discusses Clinton's "place in history."  (Quotes were used.)
   Maybe someone can do a Nexis search for "place in history."  How often has it been used this year, as opposed to other years?  Who started this "place in history" bit?
   It should be mentioned on the WOTY (Word of the Year) list.

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

   Greetings again from Mexico City.  I fly to the Yucatan tomorrow.
   "Dogi" (dog) is a brand of shoes for children.  I have no idea where the shoes are manufactured, or how long this brand name has been used.
   In an article on Mexico City's smog, NEWS, 5 November 1999, pg. 16, col. 2:  "second generation" pollutants: smog particles thatt settle out of the air but are kicked back into the atmosphere with every breeze.  (I don't know when Barnhart or ATNW added this.  "Second generation pollutants" has been around a while.  No other smog terms, but I'll ask around--ed.)


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Fri Nov  5 21:26:59 1999
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:26:59 -0600
Subject: DARE on sale at Harvard Press
In-Reply-To: <199909151455.KAA18767@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.152659.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thinking of holiday gifts?

The most recent catalog from Harvard University Press--an extension of
their "Big Spring Sale"--offers all three volumes of DARE for $157.50.
(The usual price is $75 per volume.)  This sale goes through February 29,
2000.

You can call toll free at 1-800-726-3244 (all day, every day), but must
mention that DARE is item number 320 on page 35 of the catalog.


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Fri Nov  5 21:42:57 1999
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen Miller)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:42:57 -0500
Subject: Gentleman's "C"
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.164257.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can any one help with this one - I've searched OED, M-W, American Heritage,
D.A.R.E, Random House, Urdang, Morris, Mencken, JSTOR, Lexis-Nexis and Dow
Jones and come up with zippo. I have a total of 38 uses refering to "that
old academic phrase" and what not - but as to how old it is and where it
comes from - I am at a loss. Ivy Leaguers?

Thanks
Katy


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov  5 21:40:07 1999
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 16:40:07 -0500
Subject: a stocking stuffer
In-Reply-To: <37F4DB22.84D35F77@ark.ship.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.164007.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        It's the time of year again when we must think of holiday gifts for
our loved ones.  No doubt many of you have on your list a
dialectologist with a particularly well-stocked library.  However, he
or she is not likely to have Hillary Clinton's Pen Pal: A Guide to
Life and Lingo in Federal Prison, by Reinhold Amanm, ex-federal
prisoner no. 03873-089.  This is a glossay of prison slang, as
collected by Dr. Aman during during about a year's incarceration,
along with a code of prison etiquette, and is intended as a survival
guide to new prisoners, and is presented as an open letter to Hillary
Clinton, in the expectation that she will require such a guide in a
few years' time.

        The vocabulary includes prison slang, penological jargon and
bureaucratic initialisms.  The definitions are lengthy and
discursive; some are framed so as to be directed toward Clinton
herself.  The compiler is of course the founder and editor of
Maledicta: the International Journal of Verbal Aggression and the
tone of the introduction, glossary and postscript are appropriately
agressive.

        (I'm not recommending this book for its value as a diatribe against
the Clintons; personally I think that Clinton is the greatest
president since Carter and Hillary is beyond question the greatest
president's wife since Mrs. Carter.  I wouldn't put them in the same
ring as the Trumans or the Hoovers, of course.  The Fillmores, maybe.
. . .  But back to our topic.)

        Naturally, most readers will find something offensive in this book,
and many will no doubt find it entirely offensive.  I doubt that Dr.
Aman would have it any other way.  I don't know that any of the slang
is previously unrecorded -- current slang isn't my interest, but many
of the terms were familiar to me.  Regardless, it's worthwhile having
a vocabulary collected at a particular place at a specific time.

        I'm not actually supposing that anyone one on this list will buy
a personal or a gift copy, but the book ought to be more widely
available in libraries than it is.  It's copyright 1996, yet the RLIN
network shows only Harvard, out of no doubt 40 university libraries
in that network, and OCLC shows only 9, including Harvard, again, and
the Bangor, Maine, Public Library, out of many hundreds that use that
list.

        $11.50, from Maledicta Press, P. O. Box 14123, Santa Rosa, Calif.
95402-6123.

        PS: about this time last year I posted a notice about the First New
Haven Slang Dictionary, with the promise that I would soon distribute
information as to how it may be obtained.  Well, I have finally, I
hope, got the rascal treed, and just in time for this Christmas, the
penultimate one of the present century and millenium.  Stay tuned.

GAT


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  5 22:05:08 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 17:05:08 EST
Subject: nits...
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.170508.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That explanation makes a lot of sense!  I wonder if it is the same nit, as in
"Get right down to the real nitty gritty"? Your explantion of  nitpicking as
'going through hair with a fine-toothed comb, looking for fur,'  might well
fit the definition (at least from my perspective) of the phrase, "nitty
gritty":  "the bare essential; the crux of the matter; the real/true purpose,
goal, intent, or motive."   After picking out the distracting features, one
can uncover the true, or ulterior, motive.  (Or, maybe I am trying to make a
connection that doesn't exist.)
                            PAT


From bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET  Sat Nov  6 05:16:39 1999
From: bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET (Bernard W. Kane)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:16:39 -0500
Subject: gentleman's C
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.001639.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My slang guru, Dr Robert L Chapman, prints it as "by 1940s A satisfactory
rating, but not a high one. [earliest quote I could find for this was from
TIME 12/5/83 but Chap's date can't be off by much] fr the passing but
mediocre grade traditionally given in colleges to well-bred but not serious
students"

Bernie Kane
lurker
dictionary word-finder


From bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET  Sat Nov  6 05:40:37 1999
From: bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET (Bernard W. Kane)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 00:40:37 -0500
Subject: gentleman's C (part II of message)
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.004037.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The text is Harper/Collins Dictionary of American Slang (3rd Ed. 1995)

B Kane


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Nov  6 15:46:18 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:46:18 EST
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.104618.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Someone writes:
<<Yesterday our laminate installer said he'd be on the job today "as soon as
the wife leaves for work." "The wife" has been around for a long time, but
has anyone ever heard "the husband" used the same way?>>

In a recording I made (sociolinguistic interview) I hear the following:

"The husband and daughter has a rabbit project up on the hill. How many's up
there, I don't know. I don't go up there. That's thars."

The recording was made in 1974 in the kitchen of the speaker's farm house
about 30 miles south of Asheville, NC. The speaker had lived in that same
county in NC all her life. This is the first reference in the conversation to
her husband and her daughter, so the "the" is not anaphoric. She only had one
daughter--and the use of "the" rather than "my" actually impliess that,
doesn't it?

Isn't this just the same sort of thing that one gets in an utterance such as
(I'm making this up), e.g., "I ws in a strange city and I went into a church.
The priest was an old man." This implies, to me, that there is only one
priest. For most most Americans, "the wife" and "the husband" are like "the
living room"--we only have one of them, and if we have lived with them for
quite a while, they become unique fictures of our environment. This is why
the Southernism "He's still in the bed" sounds so weird to me--seems to my
Yankee ears to imply that the house has only one bed. (But cf. American "He's
in the hospital.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov  6 16:51:03 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 11:51:03 EST
Subject: McMansions
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.115103.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

McMANSIONS

   From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 5 November 1999, pg. W14, cols. 2-5:

_A Big "McMansion" Attack_
(...) "McMansions"--those huge homes that seem to be swallowing up tiny lots everywhere.

   McMansion is interesting.  McJob is a job that is worthless.  McMansion is something big and fancy.  Most of the people who lives in McMansions don't eat at McDonald's.  In fact, the article states that one owner dines at Le Cirque!

--------------------------------------------------------
GENTLEMAN'S "C"

   George W. Bush couldn't identify those world leaders.  "Gentleman's C" has come up.
   My instincts tell me that it comes from Yale, Harvard, or Princeton.  I'm going with Princeton.
   Several "Major Authors" are online.  The first guy I'd check is F. Scott Fitzgerald.  Even if his entire ouevre isn't online, there are a few scholars who know his stuff backwards and forwards.  Check a book on him, and look up the keyword "Princeton."  Perhaps he used the phrase in the 1930s or 1940s?
   My next guess would be some article in the New Yorker.  I don't know if the New Yorker has an index, but I'd start by looking up the Big Three in the Reader's Guides of 1930-1940...Only then would I hit the Princeton Tiger and the Harvard Lampoon.
   Can this wait a week?

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

   When I get back, I'll do a study of sushi terms such as California Rolls and Philadelphia Rolls (sushi, salmon, cheese), both of which I spotted at a sushi shop in San Miguel.
   Some other drinks I saw there:

Chocolate Russo
Chocolate Irlandes
Cafe Fariseo (Pharisee coffee)
Cafe Holanda (Dutch coffee)


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Sat Nov  6 17:12:09 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:12:09 -0800
Subject: McMansions
In-Reply-To: <0.e89e5915.2555b677@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.091209.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 6 Nov 1999 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> McMANSIONS
>
>    From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 5 November 1999, pg. W14, cols. 2-5:
>
> _A Big "McMansion" Attack_
> (...) "McMansions"--those huge homes that seem to be swallowing up tiny lots everywhere.
>
>    McMansion is interesting.  McJob is a job that is worthless.  McMansion is something big and fancy.  Most of the people who lives in McMansions don't eat at McDonald's.  In fact, the article states that one owner dines at Le Cirque!

I've heard McMansion for a very large, suburban, visually  impressive but
not particularly well-built house in the Seattle area for at least the
last three years.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Nov  6 17:37:25 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:37:25 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.123725.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ron,

Inalienable possession moved to people! Note the variation in "How's
the/your hand?" in doctor talk. (Of course, since both are grammatical, the
variation is everything.)

dInIs



>Someone writes:
><<Yesterday our laminate installer said he'd be on the job today "as soon as
>the wife leaves for work." "The wife" has been around for a long time, but
>has anyone ever heard "the husband" used the same way?>>
>
>In a recording I made (sociolinguistic interview) I hear the following:
>
>"The husband and daughter has a rabbit project up on the hill. How many's up
>there, I don't know. I don't go up there. That's thars."
>
>The recording was made in 1974 in the kitchen of the speaker's farm house
>about 30 miles south of Asheville, NC. The speaker had lived in that same
>county in NC all her life. This is the first reference in the conversation to
>her husband and her daughter, so the "the" is not anaphoric. She only had one
>daughter--and the use of "the" rather than "my" actually impliess that,
>doesn't it?
>
>Isn't this just the same sort of thing that one gets in an utterance such as
>(I'm making this up), e.g., "I ws in a strange city and I went into a church.
>The priest was an old man." This implies, to me, that there is only one
>priest. For most most Americans, "the wife" and "the husband" are like "the
>living room"--we only have one of them, and if we have lived with them for
>quite a while, they become unique fictures of our environment. This is why
>the Southernism "He's still in the bed" sounds so weird to me--seems to my
>Yankee ears to imply that the house has only one bed. (But cf. American "He's
>in the hospital.)

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Nov  6 18:03:01 1999
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:03:01 -0600
Subject: Prejudice based on grammar, diction, or dialect
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.120301.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I could not help noticing the following ADS-L  exchange.

>Someone writes:
>
><<I am trying to do research on linguistic barriers to social and economic
>advancement .  Do you know of any resources available? If so, what would I
>need to do to gain access to them?  Thanks very much for any help I can
>obtain from you.  Sincerely, Laura Chamberlain.  1Osne1 at scan.missouri.org.>>
>
>My answer: yes, I do know a resource. It is called "the library."

-------Surely we at ADS-L  can  provide a more helpful reply.
Specifically,  what books or articles provide an  overall treatment of
linguistic barriers to social and econominc advancement?

---Gerald Cohen




gcohen at umr.edu


From jswkamp at JUNO.COM  Sat Nov  6 17:55:11 1999
From: jswkamp at JUNO.COM (John A Wetenkamp)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 09:55:11 -0800
Subject: mormons
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.095511.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not interested in the job at Baylor, but I want to make it clear that
Mormons ARE Christians.  The full name of the church is The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Mormon was an ancient prophet of the
American continent who invited all to believe in Christ.  Jesus Christ is
the foundation of the Mormon faith.

jw


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sat Nov  6 17:13:37 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 12:13:37 -0500
Subject: mormons
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.121337.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----------
>From: John A Wetenkamp <jswkamp at JUNO.COM>


>I'm not interested in the job at Baylor, but I want to make it clear that
>Mormons ARE Christians.  The full name of the church is The Church of
>Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Mormon was an ancient prophet of the
>American continent who invited all to believe in Christ.  Jesus Christ is
>the foundation of the Mormon faith.


I understand that.  What I was saying is that my employer does not accept
that.  They don't think I'm Christian either (I belong to the
Unitarian-Universalist Fellowship here, although I'm also non-practicing
Catholic), which is part of the reason that I am leaving here before tenure
time (the other is that I got a fantastic opportunity to go elsewhere).  The
fact that the Southern Baptists had their annual convention in Salt Lake
City last year and sent Baptist missionaries out into the streets to convert
Mormons is a signal of their attitude.  (I actually come from the birthplace
of Mormonism--Wayne County, New York.  Many school field trips to Joseph
Smith's house and Hill Cumorah!)

I've never drummed up the nerve around here to ask anyone official whether
Branch Davidians are considered Christians.  The administration here is
positive toward Catholics (with the Latino population here, it would be
impolitic not to) and Catholicism is the #2 student (and I believe faculty
too) religion at Baylor.  Nevertheless I've been told many, many times by my
students that "Catholics aren't Christian", "Catholics are going to Hell",
and "Catholics worship the Pope."


Lynne


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Nov  6 18:38:22 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:38:22 -0500
Subject: mormons
In-Reply-To: <01JI0M7FWQUAB0GF5V@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.133822.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:

>Branch Davidians are considered Christians.  The administration here is
>positive toward Catholics (with the Latino population here, it would be
>impolitic not to) and Catholicism is the #2 student (and I believe faculty
>too) religion at Baylor.  Nevertheless I've been told many, many times by my
>students that "Catholics aren't Christian", "Catholics are going to Hell",
>and "Catholics worship the Pope."

How do we Whiskeypalians fare?

Bethany


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sat Nov  6 18:05:13 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 13:05:13 -0500
Subject: mormons
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.130513.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----------
>From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTK.EDU>
>"
>
>How do we Whiskeypalians fare?
>
>Bethany

OK, I guess.  There are several in my dept, including the chair.  I don't
think the avg student understands how similar Catholics and Episcopalians
are.

The weird thing is that the official Baptist theology rests on "the
priesthood of all men"--meaning that anyone can (and does) found their own
Baptist church, but also meaning that no one's supposed to interpret God for
you, and thus you're supposed to be able to have theological differences
with other Baptists (hence the need for lots of little Baptist churches).
But in practice, Baptist higher-ups are quite happy to tell people what to
believe and not believe and what counts as practicing religion.

My mantra in coming here, to try to ensure an open mind was "Jimmy Carter is
a Southern Baptist, and I respect Jimmy Carter.  Jimmy Carter is a Southern
Baptist, and I respect Jimmy Carter.  Jimmy Carter is..." Growing up, I was
accustomed to the American Baptists whose parsonage we lived next door to
and in whose church basement I went to unilateral disarmament campaign
meetings.  Not finding many Jimmy-Carter-types or
unilateral-disarmament-types here, but there are some.

Now, let's get back to making this a dialectal discussion:

How about that pronunciation 'Babtist'?

When I first got here, I thought it was pejorative.  In fact, it is used
that way by northern  non-Baptists here a lot--"He's not a Baptist
preacher...He's a BABtist preacher!"  (i.e., stereotypical Southern
Baptist--conservative, hellfire-and-brimstone style, with some connotation
of ign'rance.)  Then I started realizing that most (at least Baptist) Texans
just say "Babtist" all the time.  I'm wondering whether there's any semantic
distinction between Babtist and Baptist in the South (i.e., Southern Baptist
vs. American Baptist?), whether it has any socio-economic relevance, and why
dissimilate that P anyway?

Lynne


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Nov  6 19:09:17 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:09:17 -0500
Subject: DARE prices
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.140917.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Before you get too excited about HarvardUP's prices, check out
amazom.com. Each volume is $ 54.60 (+ shipping). So if you need only 1-2
volumes, it'a a much better deal.

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Nov  6 19:11:09 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:11:09 -0500
Subject: mormons
In-Reply-To: <01JI0O0IJ7R6B0ES98@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.141109.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:

>How about that pronunciation 'Babtist'?

I never heard anything else growing up in se texas.

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sat Nov  6 19:27:47 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:27:47 -0500
Subject: Professional glossaries
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.142747.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For a personal project, I seek to identify 10-12 excellent professional
glossaries. Do you know of any?

Thanks,
Bethany


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Nov  6 21:14:10 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 16:14:10 -0500
Subject: McMansions
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.161410.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

See The Barnhart Dictionary Companion Vol. 10.3 and ATNW Vol. 72.4

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion
www.highlands.com/Lexik


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Sun Nov  7 00:34:09 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 16:34:09 -0800
Subject: Query: Grad Student Seeks Interviewees
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.163409.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This request came into the ADS web site. Please respond directly
to the sender, not to me or the list. This one sounds
interesting.


I am a graduate student at the Columbia University School of
Journalism, and I'm doing my masters project on the New York accent,
how it has changed, its different manifestations, how it's
passed on or lost, etc.

It will be a radio piece (roughly 28 minutes). I'm looking to
speak with (on tape) and/or consult with (off tape) linguists,
speech therapists, voice coaches, people who have gained or lost a NY
accent--in short anyone who might contribute to this piece.

I'll be working on this over the next several months. If you are
interested, please contact me at your earliest convenience.

Alicia B. Zuckerman
abz3 at columbia.edu


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Sun Nov  7 00:47:41 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 18:47:41 -0600
Subject: mormons
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.184741.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I attended Baptist churches all over Florida and Mississippi.  My father, a
Baptist minister, always said {baptist}; everyone else said {babtist}.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bethany K. Dumas <dumasb at UTK.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: mormons


> On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
> >How about that pronunciation 'Babtist'?
>
> I never heard anything else growing up in se texas.
>
> Bethany


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Nov  7 01:03:45 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 20:03:45 EST
Subject: McMansions
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.200345.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The definitive word on the prefix "Mc" is still Roger Shuy's article in
AMERICAN SPEECH a few years back. I think it is a mistake to think that
McDonalds wants us to think of "Mc" as something worthless; it is 'good value
at a good price'--if not very exciting or unusual. Granted, a McJob is a
generic, not-very-exciting job--but it isn't a worthless one. Likewise, a
McMansion is not a worthless mansion, but rather a generic, not-very exciting
mansion.

Monosemy rules! (Ruhls?)

*****in reply to:
McJob is a job that is worthless.  McMansion is something big and fancy.
Most of the people who lives in McMansions don't eat at McDonald's [sic].


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Sun Nov  7 01:10:03 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 19:10:03 -0600
Subject: mormons
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.191003.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The difference between American Baptists and Southern Baptists would depend
upon whether your reference was to the American Baptist Association (found
throughout the South) or the American Baptist Convention (found up north
primarily and in large southern cities who have experienced northern
immigration--used to be the Northern Baptist Convention).
----- Original Message -----
From: Pafra & Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 6:47 PM
Subject: Re: mormons


> I attended Baptist churches all over Florida and Mississippi.  My father,
a
> Baptist minister, always said {baptist}; everyone else said {babtist}.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bethany K. Dumas <dumasb at UTK.EDU>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 1:11 PM
> Subject: Re: mormons
>
>
> > On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:
> >
> > >How about that pronunciation 'Babtist'?
> >
> > I never heard anything else growing up in se texas.
> >
> > Bethany


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sun Nov  7 01:18:15 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 20:18:15 EST
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.201815.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Someone writes:
<Now, let's get back to making this a dialectal discussion> and goes on to
discuss pronunciation of BAPTIST.

But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
Clearly, there is a certain subset of relgious persons who use the term
CHRISTIAN to designate only persons whose particular religious views are
very, very close to their own. Others use the term much more ecumenically.
There is also a grey area here, because the former are often given to such
statements as, "To be a Christian, you must accept Jesus Christ as your
personal savior and develop a personal relationship with Jesus." But such
statements in themselves are open to various interpretations. I would expectd
that most devoted Catholics and Mormons feel that they accept Jesus Christ as
their personal savior and have developed a personal relationship with Jesus.

Does Baylor have an official policy statement that says that Mormons are not
Christians, or is the exclusion of Mormons rather based on interpretation of
what it means to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and develop a
personal relationship with Jesus?

This is, it seems to me, an interesting sociolinguistic questions.


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Sun Nov  7 01:37:49 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 19:37:49 -0600
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.193749.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To muddy the sociolinguistic waters, when I was a professor of English and
Modern Languages at a large Fundamentalist university, I attended a French
Institute.  A RC nun in my classes asked me what was our university creed.
I stated, "Our creed is, (and recited the fundamentalist creed)."  Another
Sister came up as I stated, "Our creed is...."  When I finished, the second
Sister exclaimed, "I did not know that you were a professor at a Catholic
university."
----- Original Message -----
From: <RonButters at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 7:18 PM
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians


> Someone writes:
> <Now, let's get back to making this a dialectal discussion> and goes on to
> discuss pronunciation of BAPTIST.
>
> But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of
the
> term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
> Clearly, there is a certain subset of relgious persons who use the term
> CHRISTIAN to designate only persons whose particular religious views are
> very, very close to their own. Others use the term much more ecumenically.
> There is also a grey area here, because the former are often given to such
> statements as, "To be a Christian, you must accept Jesus Christ as your
> personal savior and develop a personal relationship with Jesus." But such
> statements in themselves are open to various interpretations. I would
expectd
> that most devoted Catholics and Mormons feel that they accept Jesus Christ
as
> their personal savior and have developed a personal relationship with
Jesus.
>
> Does Baylor have an official policy statement that says that Mormons are
not
> Christians, or is the exclusion of Mormons rather based on interpretation
of
> what it means to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and develop a
> personal relationship with Jesus?
>
> This is, it seems to me, an interesting sociolinguistic questions.


From keith at blueneptune.com  Sun Nov  7 03:33:59 1999
From: keith at blueneptune.com (Keith Chambless)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 19:33:59 -0800
Subject: mormons
Message-ID: <SAT.6.NOV.1999.193359.0800.>

> fact that the Southern Baptists had their annual convention in Salt Lake
> City last year and sent Baptist missionaries out into the streets to convert
> Mormons is a signal of their attitude.  (I actually come from the birthplace

I must be behind on the news. Weren't they trying to convert
the Jews recently?

Keith


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sun Nov  7 05:48:50 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 00:48:50 -0500
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.004850.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Does Baylor have an official policy statement that says that Mormons are not
>Christians, or is the exclusion of Mormons rather based on interpretation of
>what it means to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and develop a
>personal relationship with Jesus?

The contracts here say something about Jesus, but there is no official list
of "approved" and "unapproved" churches--at least not in the faculty
handbook and such places.  The departments have just learned from experience
which religious affiliations do not pass the administration's muster.

There are other interpretations of "Christian", of course, that do not have
anything to do with "personal relationships" and "personal saviors"...I'm
tempted to say that's a pretty American way of dealing with a deity.

I like to say that I'm a Christian in the same sense that I might (or might
not) be a Marxist or a Chomskyan-- Jesus someone with good ideas that I want
to follow (much more so than Marx or Chomsky, actually).  (Of course, we
could get picky then and say that I must be a Jesusan rather than a
Christian...)

Lynne


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sun Nov  7 05:53:39 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 00:53:39 -0500
Subject: Babtists
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.005339.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was refering to American Baptist Convention versus Southern Baptist
Convention, but we might phrase it in terms of southern Baptists and
northern Baptists--would southern Baptists call northern Baptists "Babtist"?

(And, of course, there are other types of Baptists too, Missionary Baptist,
National Baptist--both of which around here seem to be predominantly
African-American churches.)

Lynne
----------
>From: Pafra & Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: mormons
>Date: Sat, Nov 6, 1999, 8:10 PM
>

>The difference between American Baptists and Southern Baptists would depend
>upon whether your reference was to the American Baptist Association (found
>throughout the South) or the American Baptist Convention (found up north
>primarily and in large southern cities who have experienced northern
>immigration--used to be the Northern Baptist Convention).
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Pafra & Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 6:47 PM
>Subject: Re: mormons
>
>
>> I attended Baptist churches all over Florida and Mississippi.  My father,
>a
>> Baptist minister, always said {baptist}; everyone else said {babtist}.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Bethany K. Dumas <dumasb at UTK.EDU>
>> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 1:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: mormons
>>
>>
>> > On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:
>> >
>> > >How about that pronunciation 'Babtist'?
>> >
>> > I never heard anything else growing up in se texas.
>> >
>> > Bethany


From simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM  Sun Nov  7 13:45:37 1999
From: simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM (beth lee simon)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 08:45:37 -0500
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.084537.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another angle on the use of _Christian_ vis a vis being Catholic:
as a child, Jewish, in Des Moines IA, I heard other Jewish kids use _Christian_
to mean Protestant when distinguishing gentiles, i.e. "So and so is Christian."
"No, she's Catholic."

And sort of conversely, when my mother told me of wanting to go to the
"Christian" school as a child because her best friend did, she meant the Catholic
elementary school.


beth simon
assistant professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
simon at ipfw.edu
or
simon at home2.mysolution.com

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> Someone writes:
> <Now, let's get back to making this a dialectal discussion> and goes on to
> discuss pronunciation of BAPTIST.
>
> But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
> term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
> Clearly, there is a certain subset of relgious persons who use the term
> CHRISTIAN to designate only persons whose particular religious views are
> very, very close to their own. Others use the term much more ecumenically.
> There is also a grey area here, because the former are often given to such
> statements as, "To be a Christian, you must accept Jesus Christ as your
> personal savior and develop a personal relationship with Jesus." But such
> statements in themselves are open to various interpretations. I would expectd
> that most devoted Catholics and Mormons feel that they accept Jesus Christ as
> their personal savior and have developed a personal relationship with Jesus.
>
> Does Baylor have an official policy statement that says that Mormons are not
> Christians, or is the exclusion of Mormons rather based on interpretation of
> what it means to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and develop a
> personal relationship with Jesus?
>
> This is, it seems to me, an interesting sociolinguistic questions.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov  7 14:12:13 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:12:13 -0500
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.091213.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Course Ron is right. How "speech communities" (and couldn't they include
religious groups?) define words is of considerable sociolinguistic
interest.

dInIs

 >Someone writes:
><Now, let's get back to making this a dialectal discussion> and goes on to
>discuss pronunciation of BAPTIST.
>
>But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
>term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
>Clearly, there is a certain subset of relgious persons who use the term
>CHRISTIAN to designate only persons whose particular religious views are
>very, very close to their own. Others use the term much more ecumenically.
>There is also a grey area here, because the former are often given to such
>statements as, "To be a Christian, you must accept Jesus Christ as your
>personal savior and develop a personal relationship with Jesus." But such
>statements in themselves are open to various interpretations. I would expectd
>that most devoted Catholics and Mormons feel that they accept Jesus Christ as
>their personal savior and have developed a personal relationship with Jesus.
>
>Does Baylor have an official policy statement that says that Mormons are not
>Christians, or is the exclusion of Mormons rather based on interpretation of
>what it means to accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior and develop a
>personal relationship with Jesus?
>
>This is, it seems to me, an interesting sociolinguistic questions.

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Sun Nov  7 14:24:50 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 08:24:50 -0600
Subject: Babtists
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.082450.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: M. Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 11:53 PM
Subject: Babtists


> I was refering to American Baptist Convention versus Southern Baptist
> Convention, but we might phrase it in terms of southern Baptists and
> northern Baptists--would southern Baptists call northern Baptists
"Babtist"?
    Why not?  It's a matter of dialect--not creed.

> (And, of course, there are other types of Baptists too, Missionary
Baptist,
> National Baptist--both of which around here seem to be predominantly
> African-American churches.)

A few decades back, I was doing a paper on Baptists and identified
51 or so Baptist groups in the US--not counting immigrant groups.
They range from the Arminian Baptists and the Seventh-Day Baptists
to the Two Seed in the Spirit Predestinarian Baptists.   Missionary
Baptists are also several European-American churches also; there is
at least one European-American National Baptist group (I have to say
"group" because most, if not almost all, Baptist groups, as a point of
religious conviction, shun use of the word "church" for anything except
a local body of baptized believers.  They use the terms "fellowship,"
"convention," "association," and others of that ilk.
>
> Lynne
> ----------
> >From: Pafra & Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET>
> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >Subject: Re: mormons
> >Date: Sat, Nov 6, 1999, 8:10 PM
> >
>
> >The difference between American Baptists and Southern Baptists would
depend
> >upon whether your reference was to the American Baptist Association
(found
> >throughout the South) or the American Baptist Convention (found up north
> >primarily and in large southern cities who have experienced northern
> >immigration--used to be the Northern Baptist Convention).
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Pafra & Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET>
> >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 6:47 PM
> >Subject: Re: mormons
> >
> >
> >> I attended Baptist churches all over Florida and Mississippi.  My
father,
> >a
> >> Baptist minister, always said {baptist}; everyone else said {babtist}.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Bethany K. Dumas <dumasb at UTK.EDU>
> >> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 1999 1:11 PM
> >> Subject: Re: mormons
> >>
> >>
> >> > On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >How about that pronunciation 'Babtist'?
> >> >
> >> > I never heard anything else growing up in se texas.
> >> >
> >> > Bethany


From pds at VISI.COM  Sun Nov  7 21:30:09 1999
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 15:30:09 -0600
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
In-Reply-To: <0.bd8f42d2.25562d57@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.153009.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
>term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.

In 1964 I overheard the follow interchange between two middle-aged women in
Minneapolis, both members of a Covenant (or Swedish Covenant) church:

"Is she a Christian?"
"No, she's a Methodist."
"Well, at least she's not a Presbyterian."



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sun Nov  7 21:56:11 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 16:56:11 -0500
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.165611.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The below reminds me of a story that friends at U of S Carolina like to
tell.  They have a friend, a fellow faculty member who is Chinese and
apparently unaccustomed to the American South.  He and his family move into
a middle class neighborhood, and the neighbor lady comes over bearing a pie
or some such thing in order to make their acquaintance:

Neighbor:  So, are you Baptist?
Faculty guy:  No.
N:  Oh, are you Methodist?
FG:  No.
N:  Well then, what ARE you?
FG: I'm a physicist.


----------
>From: Tom Kysilko <pds at VISI.COM>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
>Date: Sun, Nov 7, 1999, 4:30 PM
>

>>But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
>>term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
>
>In 1964 I overheard the follow interchange between two middle-aged women in
>Minneapolis, both members of a Covenant (or Swedish Covenant) church:
>
>"Is she a Christian?"
>"No, she's a Methodist."
>"Well, at least she's not a Presbyterian."
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
>  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM  Sun Nov  7 23:16:58 1999
From: simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM (beth lee simon)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:16:58 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.181658.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has no one done an article on the sociolx of "christian" (as noun and/or
modifier) in AmerEng.? If not, there is clearly at least one out there, waiting.

beth


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov  7 23:07:33 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 18:07:33 -0500
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.180733.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Reminds me of "bilingual." I once told someone that a buddy of mine was
bilingual (in fact, he was more than that, but bilingual seems to be a kind
of default for multilingual often). The perrson I said this too came back
and told me (a little peeved) that he didn't speak Spanish and was,
therefore, not a bilingual.

dInIs (laying low during these religious wars)

>>But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
>>term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
>
>In 1964 I overheard the follow interchange between two middle-aged women in
>Minneapolis, both members of a Covenant (or Swedish Covenant) church:
>
>"Is she a Christian?"
>"No, she's a Methodist."
>"Well, at least she's not a Presbyterian."
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
>  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sun Nov  7 22:49:04 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 17:49:04 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.174904.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----------
>From: beth lee simon <simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM>

>Has no one done an article on the sociolx of "christian" (as noun and/or
>modifier) in AmerEng.? If not, there is clearly at least one out there, waiting.
>

This is actually on my list of things to do, since I've been working on
other social group labels (race & sexual orientation). Religious labels
bring up some issues that others don't--self-labeling and choice are greater
factors, although many of these labels (and the behaviors that go with them)
are "inherited" from the family (nevertheless, people tend to believe
they've made a choice and that others without the same background
might/should also make the same choice).  I expect that there would be quite
a bit of difference between label semantics for proselytizing and
non-proselytizing groups.

What I am unlikely to do is a survey of many different groups to find out
how they define "Christian" and try to map that.  What I am likely to do is
to concentrate on a few groups (some ingroup, some outgroup) and see how the
word works from their perspectives. I'm particularly interested in looking
at a few cognitive social-psychology hypotheses (discussed in my article
"The Elusive Bisexual" in _Queerly Phrased_) and see whether the religious
labels behave in the ways that they are predicted to behave in terms of
inclusiveness/exclusiveness, polarity, etc.

So, there's lots of work on "Christian" to be done.  I'm not going to get to
this for at least a year, because I'm still obsessed lexical organization.
Nevertheless, I'd love to hear from other people who are working on it to
build up my pre-working bibliography...

Lynne

--
M. Lynne Murphy
Baylor University


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Mon Nov  8 00:26:18 1999
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 19:26:18 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.192618.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Merely a note.  In a capstone business policy course that I teach,
students have to analyze and present case studies about organizations,
usually business organizations.  Some of the available cases contain
some sort of a statement from a prominent person in the organization, to
the end that "we believe in Christian principles" or "we follow a
Christian approach".

>From experience, I know that if I use such a case study, the presenting
group will make an opening statement of the type:  "Since it is a
Christian organization (or, since the CEO is a Christian), we know that
it is an ethical organization.  We have no reason to doubt the
statements of the CEO."  I usually ask if they would identify the
specific set of Christian principles employed by the organization, and
what those principles have to say about profit-making, the treatment of
employees, and whatever.

Basically, the students use the equation:  Christian = all things
good/ethical.  For that matter, I don't care what religious group they
put into the equation, or whatever other group.  I want them to look at
actions, not labels, unless the organization's selection of labels is a
clue, perhaps the only clue, to the understanding of certain other
actions.

I grew up in a family that practiced meatless Fridays, and attended a
conservative Methodist church on Sundays (a bi-religious experience).
Absolutely no faith was permitted to be criticized in my family, but
discussion was allowed.  Thinking back on it, the religious practices of
my many relatives covered all of the Christian religious groups which
have been recently discussed on this list.  When I ask my students what
specific set of principles their study organization is following, I have
solid reasons for doing so.

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Nov  8 04:19:19 1999
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 20:19:19 -0800
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <SUN.7.NOV.1999.201919.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

[responding to, among others, ron butters and beth simon on
the sociolinguistics of "christian"...]

this would indeed be a fascinating - and very ambitious -
study, as some of the comments on this topic have already
suggested.  the meaning of "christian" varies enormously
from one social context to another.

in contrast to some of the extremely narrow baptist usages
reported on already (where "christian" seems to take in a
domain very close to the speaker's own beliefs and practices),
there are other contexts where it is used extremly broadly.

in lgb discussion groups on the net - where christianity is
a somewhat problematic identity, and where there are large
numbers of jews and nonbelievers in the conversation - there
is a strong inclination for self-identified christians to
take jesus's teachings of love as the defining characteristic
of christianity.  this makes large numbers of people christians,
or as near as makes no difference; many of these folks object
strenuously to this reclassification.

i have yet to find a context in which people *actually* use
belief in the resurrection of jesus (what i would take to be the
one non-negotiable central tenet of christianity) as the
characteristic distinguishing christians from all the rest.
[by "actually", i mean as a folk definition, not as a technical
definition.]  but perhaps my experience is just not as wide
as it might be.

interestingly, in another of my worlds, that of shapenote
singing (in the Sacred Harp tradition, Denson revision
specifically, for those who know about these subtleties -
note the [non-accidental] parallels to the world of baptist
groups), the issue of who is or is not a christian is deliberately
backgrounded, despite the fact that the tradition has been
intimately associated with primitive baptist and primitive
methodist churches in the rural south for over 150 years.
the texts could not be more explicitly christian - actually,
resurrection and the life hereafter are dominant themes -
and an alternative tradition even uses a book called Christian
Harmony (as opposed to Sacred Harp), and more, but singers
do not question one another on matters of doctrine, or apply
any tests to those who would join in singing; all who would
sing are welcome to join the community.  this means that
nonsouthern groups tend to have lots of nonbelievers, jews,
mormons, unitarian-universalists, roman catholics, etc., and
all these singers are welcome when they go south for singing
conventions.

this extremely generous "christian" tradition coexists with
[to my mind] almost unimaginably narrow definitions of who
counts as "christian" for church-going purposes; the world
of southern shapenote singers shatters into dozens, probably
hundreds, of doctrinally incompatible congregations of
believers.  and on occasion, one of these groups is reluctant
to apply the descriptor "christian" to certain of the others.

arnold  (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Nov  8 17:28:22 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 09:28:22 -0800
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.092822.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To take another tack on this subject, it is my
understanding (which may be incorrect)that
"christian", or its ancient greek and latin
equivalents, was originally a pejorative that
originated with the establishment and came to refer to
trouble-causing rabble in general, rather than
specifically to followers of Christ, and that the
modern english word "cretin" arises at least in part
from this earlier meaning.  I don't have searchable
text handy, but I believe the word "christian" only
appears a few times in the New Testament, once when
Aggripa told Paul "Almost thou doest persuade me to be
a Christian.", (or something close to that!)

"Mormon" was originally a pejorative and is still
generally avoided in official speaking and writing
originating from the "Mormon" church, "Mormon
Tabernacle Choir" being one of the notable exceptions
to this rule.

JIM

--- beth lee simon <simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM> wrote:
> Has no one done an article on the sociolx of
> "christian" (as noun and/or
> modifier) in AmerEng.? If not, there is clearly at
> least one out there, waiting.
>
> beth
>



=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Nov  8 18:36:01 1999
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 10:36:01 -0800
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.103601.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

a follow-up on the sociolinguistics of "christian"...

to those who identify as such, being christian is a highly
valued identity, hence one not easily extended to people
who are distant from you in matters of religious practice,
or for that matter, socially distant from you.  in this
respect, being christian is a lot like being white, and
we find the same kind of variation in the use of "white"
as a descriptor.

during the past century in the u.s., jews have become
"white" - and have gotten a kind of honorary christianity
as well, in references to "judeo-christian" values and
traditions - but arabs have not (at least not in folk
usage; the practices of official agencies like the census
bureau and the eoc are another matter).  in the same
period, the irish, italians, and spaniards-from/in-spain
have become "white" (despite their roman catholicism),
but latinos/hispanics/etc. have not (instead, their
differentness has been codified in the official terminology
of race).

local usages of "white" have shifted in ways similar to
local usages of "christian".  linda gordon's The Great
Arizona Orphan Abduction (reviewed by joann wypijewski
in the most recent Lingua Franca) reports a (to me)
bewildering variety of racial classifications in the
arizona of a hundred years ago.  for the purpose of
expelling the chinese from the mines, mexicans and anglos
were grouped together.  but then there were "white man's
camps" - the terminology of the time - which excluded
chinese, mexicans, southern and eastern europeans, but
not blacks; wypijewski provides this marvelous piece
of self-identification from gordon:
  James Young, a black man at the Contention mine
  in nearby Tombstone, remarked 'Si White and I were
  the first white men in Tombstone after Gird and
  Schieffelin.'
[note that one thing the residents of the white man's
camps would have shared was protestant christianity,
probably a rather narrow range of it; those excluded
were "wild", "savage", "backward", "heathen", etc.]

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Mon Nov  8 20:33:04 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 13:33:04 -0700
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.133304.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was in church yesterday with a friend; I am a regular attendee of this
Assemblies of God church, and my friend has a Catholic and Christian
Orthodox background. The bulletin advertised a membership class that
believers may attend. My friend expressed interest in attending the class,
and I said, "It says there that the class is for believers." He said, "I'm a
believer." I replied, "What they really mean is if you're saved." To me, a
believer was a person who is saved. Of course, the word "saved" opens
another can of worms, but while our theological definitions of "believer"
differ, he agrees that "saved" does not mean "believer," and he recognizes
that he is not saved. Far be it from me to discourage him from attending the
membership class; I only wanted him to understand what the bulletin meant.

This relates to the current Christianity topics because in many sects of
Christianity, you will find that people will define a Christian only as
someone who is saved. For example, a former Catholic schoolmate of mine told
me that one does not have to be Catholic to be Christian. I replied that
being Catholic does not automatically make one a Christian. He disagreed
with me, of course, but my definition differed from his in that being a
church member (any church) does not make one a Christian. By my definition,
Christianity is not something you are born into, such as Judaism or Islam.

Now, the definition of "saved," I'm sure, varies quite a lot between belief
systems. However, it seems that most people recognize the traditional
meaning: one must believe that Jesus Christ is God's son who died for
humankind's lost souls and rose from the grave; one must accept Jesus Christ
into one's life and surrender control to Him; one must confess sins and
display genuine repentance for them.

Does anyone know of instances where that definition is not accepted?

Amy

-----Original Message-----
From: David Bergdahl <bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: Christian suggestion


>The anecdote about Christian business practices reminds me of an
>experience I had teaching  Conrad's Heart of Darkness my first
>year--1963--and we naturally explored what it meant for Marlow the
>interior narrator of the tale to be compared to the Buddha.  One student
>volunteered that just because he was a Buddhist that that  didn't mean
>that he wasn't a Christian.  I explained that the Buddhists wouldn't
>probably object to dual loyalties but that Christians certainly would. .
>. but what I didn't understand was that for her Christian merely meant
>"ethical person" and had little if any identification with any
>institution.  In this manner the beginning teacher learns not to confuse
>dictionary citations with what people mean. . .
>____________________________________________________________________
>David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
>tel:  (740) 593-2783
>366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
>(740) 593-2818


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Nov  8 19:14:14 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:14:14 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.141414.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On the mostly Hungarian (but with a smattering of Polish, Italian, Russian,
and Lithuanian) street where I grew up in southern Illinois, our reference
to the English-German-Scots-Irish remainder of the town was to the "white"
people (which we borrowed from their self-reference to distinguish
themselves from us, not Blacks).

Arizona is not the only place where Black and White could be classified
together. The Hawaiian use of "haole" (roughly "non-local") carries
"non-white" racial overtones (making it roughly synonymous with "white")
and therefore made it necessary to refer to "Black haoles" (at least when I
was there in the early 80's).

dInIs (proud but onomastically disguised Hunkey)



 >a follow-up on the sociolinguistics of "christian"...
>
>to those who identify as such, being christian is a highly
>valued identity, hence one not easily extended to people
>who are distant from you in matters of religious practice,
>or for that matter, socially distant from you.  in this
>respect, being christian is a lot like being white, and
>we find the same kind of variation in the use of "white"
>as a descriptor.
>
>during the past century in the u.s., jews have become
>"white" - and have gotten a kind of honorary christianity
>as well, in references to "judeo-christian" values and
>traditions - but arabs have not (at least not in folk
>usage; the practices of official agencies like the census
>bureau and the eoc are another matter).  in the same
>period, the irish, italians, and spaniards-from/in-spain
>have become "white" (despite their roman catholicism),
>but latinos/hispanics/etc. have not (instead, their
>differentness has been codified in the official terminology
>of race).
>
>local usages of "white" have shifted in ways similar to
>local usages of "christian".  linda gordon's The Great
>Arizona Orphan Abduction (reviewed by joann wypijewski
>in the most recent Lingua Franca) reports a (to me)
>bewildering variety of racial classifications in the
>arizona of a hundred years ago.  for the purpose of
>expelling the chinese from the mines, mexicans and anglos
>were grouped together.  but then there were "white man's
>camps" - the terminology of the time - which excluded
>chinese, mexicans, southern and eastern europeans, but
>not blacks; wypijewski provides this marvelous piece
>of self-identification from gordon:
>  James Young, a black man at the Contention mine
>  in nearby Tombstone, remarked 'Si White and I were
>  the first white men in Tombstone after Gird and
>  Schieffelin.'
>[note that one thing the residents of the white man's
>camps would have shared was protestant christianity,
>probably a rather narrow range of it; those excluded
>were "wild", "savage", "backward", "heathen", etc.]
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov  8 19:14:10 1999
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:14:10 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.141410.0500.>

The anecdote about Christian business practices reminds me of an
experience I had teaching  Conrad's Heart of Darkness my first
year--1963--and we naturally explored what it meant for Marlow the
interior narrator of the tale to be compared to the Buddha.  One student
volunteered that just because he was a Buddhist that that  didn't mean
that he wasn't a Christian.  I explained that the Buddhists wouldn't
probably object to dual loyalties but that Christians certainly would. .
. but what I didn't understand was that for her Christian merely meant
"ethical person" and had little if any identification with any
institution.  In this manner the beginning teacher learns not to confuse
dictionary citations with what people mean. . .
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  8 22:13:46 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:13:46 EST
Subject: Mexican proverbs
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.171346.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MEXICAN PROVERBS

    Another tour guide also mentioned the VW-belly button thing.  The rationale is that, in Mexico, a VW is like a belly button--everybody has one.
    There are a lot of young people around, and some of them kiss in public.  My tour guide said that the proverb for this is that the couple is "counting money in front of the poor."

--------------------------------------------------------
McMANSIONS (continued)

   I forgot to add it (sorry!), but Jessie Sheidlower is on record here at ADS-L supporting the adding of "McJobs" to the OED--something that McDonald's helped prevent.  With McMansions coming on strong (as indicated by the WSJ usage), is Jessie gonna get both of them in the OED?

--------------------------------------------------------
FOOD AND DRINK (continued)

   Lipton, Nestea, and Cristal all sell "iced tea" here.  However, at the Cancun airport, the two establishments that sold the product called it "ice tea" on their signs.
   SPAGHETTI ROCKEFELLER--with shrimps, spinach, and holland sauce.
   MAYAN COFFEE--Kahlua, Xtabetun (Mayan liquor), and coconut ice cream.
   HOLIDAY COFFEE--Frengelico, Kahlua, and vanilla ice cream.

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

    Greetings from Merida, Mexico.
    The handpicked guy of the current government won the primary here yesterday.  President Clinton's new corruption act has a loophole that excludes Mexico.  It all means that Americans can continue to expect illegal drugs to come from Mexico for at least the next seven years.
    While at Chichen Itza, I saw a group of kids from Argentina.  It turns out they're in a group called Gordi's Girls, a popular Menudo/Spice Girls knockoff that I'd somehow never heard of. The kids sang and danced their way through Mayan ruins.  I have Uxmal next; maybe it'll have Britney Spears.


From greg at PULLIAM.ORG  Mon Nov  8 22:10:45 1999
From: greg at PULLIAM.ORG (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:10:45 -0600
Subject: born-again (was Christian suggestion)
In-Reply-To: <006f01bf2a28$75a3f100$61b7f7ce@scooby.paradigmtech.com>
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.161045.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is the way I have experienced what we used to call "born-again"
Christians using the term "Christian" lately, also.  When these folks
use the term "Christian," they are excluding members of a vast number
of mainstream denominations--Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans,
most Catholics.

Does anyone use the term "born-again Christian" anymore, or did that
go out with President Carter?  By appropriating the more general term
only for themselves, the Christians-formerly-known-as-born-again
(CFKABA?) have traded a relatively descriptive (albeit kind of
silly-sounding) moniker for a less-descriptive one, possibly in the
hope of having their particular brand of Christianity come to be seen
by the public at large as the default version.

I don't usually fight these sorts of word battles, but I think I'm
going to do what I can in my little corner of the world to hold on to
the term "Christian" for mainstreamers, too.



>This relates to the current Christianity topics because in many sects of
>Christianity, you will find that people will define a Christian only as
>someone who is saved. For example, a former Catholic schoolmate of mine told
>me that one does not have to be Catholic to be Christian. I replied that
>being Catholic does not automatically make one a Christian. He disagreed
>with me, of course, but my definition differed from his in that being a
>church member (any church) does not make one a Christian. By my definition,
>Christianity is not something you are born into, such as Judaism or Islam.
>
>Now, the definition of "saved," I'm sure, varies quite a lot between belief
>systems. However, it seems that most people recognize the traditional
>meaning: one must believe that Jesus Christ is God's son who died for
>humankind's lost souls and rose from the grave; one must accept Jesus Christ
>into one's life and surrender control to Him; one must confess sins and
>display genuine repentance for them.
>
>Does anyone know of instances where that definition is not accepted?
>
>Amy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: David Bergdahl <bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 12:15 PM
>Subject: Re: Christian suggestion
>
>
>  >The anecdote about Christian business practices reminds me of an
>  >experience I had teaching  Conrad's Heart of Darkness my first
>  >year--1963--and we naturally explored what it meant for Marlow the
>  >interior narrator of the tale to be compared to the Buddha.  One student
>  >volunteered that just because he was a Buddhist that that  didn't mean
>  >that he wasn't a Christian.  I explained that the Buddhists wouldn't
>  >probably object to dual loyalties but that Christians certainly would. .
>  >. but what I didn't understand was that for her Christian merely meant
>  >"ethical person" and had little if any identification with any
>  >institution.  In this manner the beginning teacher learns not to confuse
>  >dictionary citations with what people mean. . .
>  >____________________________________________________________________
>  >David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
>  >tel:  (740) 593-2783
>  >366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
>  >(740) 593-2818

-

Greg
greg at pulliam.org


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Mon Nov  8 22:34:53 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:34:53 -0700
Subject: born-again
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.153453.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, "we" also use the term "born-again" to mean saved. In my experience,
they are synonymous. "Born-again" is often used to sound more positive.
Something about it sounds a little more warm and fuzzy than saved. To tell
someone he needs to be saved implies that he is lost. To tell someone he
needs to be born-again implies that he will step from an old way of life to
a new, more positive way of life.

Amy



>This is the way I have experienced what we used to call "born-again"
>Christians using the term "Christian" lately, also.  When these folks
>use the term "Christian," they are excluding members of a vast number
>of mainstream denominations--Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans,
>most Catholics.
>
>Does anyone use the term "born-again Christian" anymore, or did that
>go out with President Carter?  By appropriating the more general term
>only for themselves, the Christians-formerly-known-as-born-again
>(CFKABA?) have traded a relatively descriptive (albeit kind of
>silly-sounding) moniker for a less-descriptive one, possibly in the
>hope of having their particular brand of Christianity come to be seen
>by the public at large as the default version.
>
>I don't usually fight these sorts of word battles, but I think I'm
>going to do what I can in my little corner of the world to hold on to
>the term "Christian" for mainstreamers, too.
>
>
>
>>This relates to the current Christianity topics because in many sects of
>>Christianity, you will find that people will define a Christian only as
>>someone who is saved. For example, a former Catholic schoolmate of mine
told
>>me that one does not have to be Catholic to be Christian. I replied that
>>being Catholic does not automatically make one a Christian. He disagreed
>>with me, of course, but my definition differed from his in that being a
>>church member (any church) does not make one a Christian. By my
definition,
>>Christianity is not something you are born into, such as Judaism or Islam.
>>
>>Now, the definition of "saved," I'm sure, varies quite a lot between
belief
>>systems. However, it seems that most people recognize the traditional
>>meaning: one must believe that Jesus Christ is God's son who died for
>>humankind's lost souls and rose from the grave; one must accept Jesus
Christ
>>into one's life and surrender control to Him; one must confess sins and
>>display genuine repentance for them.
>>
>>Does anyone know of instances where that definition is not accepted?
>>
>>Amy
>>


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Nov  8 22:39:48 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:39:48 -0800
Subject: Christian suggestion
In-Reply-To: <006f01bf2a28$75a3f100$61b7f7ce@scooby.paradigmtech.com>
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.143948.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Amy Speed wrote:

> church member (any church) does not make one a Christian. By my definition,
> Christianity is not something you are born into, such as Judaism or Islam.

My understanding is that one is considered to be Jewish if their parents
or at least their mother is Jewish. They are not exactly born practicing
the religion Judaism, although they can be said to be ethnically Jewish.

The case of Islam is exactly the same as that of Christianity. No one is
born a Muslim, only of parents who are Muslim. And, unlike the case of
Judaism, both "Muslim" and "Christian" imply absolutely no ethnic
identity.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


From dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP  Mon Nov  8 22:37:56 1999
From: dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP (Daniel Long)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:37:56 +0900
Subject: foreign accents to dialects
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.073756.0900.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am looking for stuff about "foreign accents" that turned into dialects.   Irish
English, AAVE and Hawaiian English are things that come to mind.   What about
that Iron Range stuff with the th-stopping?   Has that been linked to
Scandanavian immigrant influence?   References would be welcome, as well as info
on languages besides English.

Your Righteous Pen-Pal in a Pagan Land,
Danny Long
--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-426-77-2184
Japanese Language and Literature Dept.    fax  +81-426-77-2140
Tokyo Metropolitan University
1-1 Minami Osawa, Hachioji-shi, Tokyo  192-0397 Japan
mailto:dlong at bcomp.metro-u.ac.jp
http://nihongo.human.metro-u.ac.jp/long/


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Nov  8 22:53:39 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:53:39 -0800
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.145339.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> living room"--we only have one of them, and if we have lived with them for
>  This is why
> the Southernism "He's still in the bed" sounds so weird to me--seems to my
> Yankee ears to imply that the house has only one bed. (But cf. American "He's
> in the hospital.)

But "in the hospital" is an expression, having no bearing on whether there is
one or many area hospital(s).  Not sure if "in the bed" is an expression in your
example.

Perhaps to get away from the connotation of "the" referring to a known hospital,
the English say "in hospital".  It's more of a state, as in "in school" vs. "at
school".  When talking about my father who is a doctor, I don't say, "he's in
the hospital", I say "he's at the hospital".

Pardon, I have vague recollections that this has already been discussed.

Andrea


From MBreland at HLG.EDU  Mon Nov  8 23:10:48 1999
From: MBreland at HLG.EDU (Breland, Mary Beth)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:10:48 -0600
Subject: Babtist
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.171048.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm running a little behind but would like to add my contribution to the
Baptist/Babtist pronunciation thread.

On Sat, 6 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:

>How about that pronunciation 'Babtist'?

To which Bethany replied.

I never heard anything else growing up in se texas.


I grew up as the daughter of a Baptist preacher in Mississippi.  We lived in
a community in central Mississippi from 1957-1962 where the pronunciation
for many people was BABuhtis', and people got babuhtized when they got
saved.



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From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Mon Nov  8 23:18:45 1999
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:18:45 -0500
Subject: the last additions to whiting
In-Reply-To: <199910251924.MAA27876@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.181845.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is the last installment of the stuff from my notes in the shape
of proverbs, catchphrases, common expressions, and either not in
B. J. Whiting's various books of such material, or antedating his
earliest record.

1847:   as the showman says, "you pays your money and you takes your
choice"
        Sunday Times and Noah's Weekly Messenger, June 27, 1847, p. 2, col.
3; also ST&NWM, July 18, 1847, p. 2, col. 6

not in DAE; nor Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting: 1869 (Money, #11);
OED?

1821:   [fashionable dress] generally fits them after the manner of a
"purser's shirt upon a handspike!"
        Pierce Egan, Life in London, N. Y.: Appleton, 1904, p. 244.  (Bk 2,
ch. 5)   [This of course in an English source; first publ. 1821.]

1835:   [a man] whose coat fit him like "a purser's shirt on a handspike" . . .
        Morning Herald, July 23, 1835, p. 2, col. 4

not in Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting; nor Whiting, MPPP

1933:   Did you ever drink watermelon buck?  Well, take mah tip, Son, and
don't.  That's the stuff that makes a rabbit look for a dawg.
        Cornelius W. Willemse, A Cop Remembers, N. Y.: E. P. Dutton, 1933,
p. 139.  [Watermelon buck is a drink made from fermented watermelon
juice; sounds ghastly.  The author is attempting to represent AAVE
speech.]

not in Taylor & Whiting; nor Whiting, MPPS

1823:   [Richard] Brown [sentenced to 10 years] said "he did not complain
he had 9 years the full run of the rope."
        National Advocate, December 16, 1823, p. 2, col. 4

not in Whiting, EAPPP; nor Taylor & Whiting

1933:   Every station house had its pet animals.  Dogs and cats were
the usual run of shad. . . .
        Cornelius W. Willemse, A Cop Remembers, N. Y.: E. P. Dutton, 1933, p. 75.

not in Taylor & Whiting; Whiting, MPPS; nor DAE (this figurative
sense); OED?  [I think I recall my mother using this expression, in a
disparaging sense: "Isn't that a nice run of shad", for instance.]

1824:   Got in York safe as a bee in a bucket.
        Simon Snipe, The Sports of New York.  N. Y., 1824, p. 3.

not in Whiting, EAPPP; nor Taylor & Whiting (bee, bucket, safe)

1837:   [The Irishman] was only gammoning the auctioneer, and pitching
into him like a thousand of brick.
        New York Times, August 18, 1837, p. 2, col. 7

1842:   Let me hear any more of you, and I'll walk into you like a thousand of brick.
        The Flash, Vol. 1, #4 (July 10, 1842) p. 1, cols. 2-3

Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting: 1840.  [Three years isn't much of
an antedating, I admit; so sue me.]

1847:   Geo. H. Fielding, being "three shillings short of any change," undertook
to replenish his pockets by robbing his own mother.
        New York Daily Tribune, January 29, 1847, p. 4. col. 1

not in Taylor & Whiting

1821:   Tickle me Billy, and I'll tickle you.  [headline, referring to mutual flattery]
        Commercial Advertiser, March 16, 1821, p. 2, col. 2

1825:   Tickle me Billy, do, do, do
                And in my turn I'll tickle you.
        New-York National Advocate, May 27, 1825, p. 2, col. 3

1842:   tickle me and I'll tickle you
        The Rake, #4, July 9, 1842, p. 2, col. 2.  In NYC Archives, NYC District
Attorney's files, box 410, folder for July 14, 1842

not in Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting; nor Partridge's Catchphrases

GAT


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Mon Nov  8 23:13:12 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:13:12 -0800
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.151312.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

raised Jewish - to me and my family, anyone whose religion involves Jesus Christ
as a major figure is Christian.

Andrea
(who does not have a Christian name)

beth lee simon wrote:
>
> Another angle on the use of _Christian_ vis a vis being Catholic:
> as a child, Jewish, in Des Moines IA, I heard other Jewish kids use _Christian_
> to mean Protestant when distinguishing gentiles, i.e. "So and so is Christian."
> "No, she's Catholic."
>
> And sort of conversely, when my mother told me of wanting to go to the
> "Christian" school as a child because her best friend did, she meant the Catholic
> elementary school.
>
> beth simon
> assistant professor, linguistics and english
> indiana university purdue university
> simon at ipfw.edu
> or
> simon at home2.mysolution.com
>
> RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> > Someone writes:
> > <Now, let's get back to making this a dialectal discussion> and goes on to
> > discuss pronunciation of BAPTIST.
> >
> > But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
> > term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
> > Clearly, there is a certain subset of relgious persons who use the term
> > CHRISTIAN to designate only persons whose particular religious views are
> > very, very close to their own. Others use the term much more ecumenically.
> > There is also a grey area here, because the former are often given to such
> > statements as, "To be a Christian, you must accept Jesus Christ as your
> > personal savior and develop a personal relationship with Jesus." But such
> > statements in themselves are open to various interpretations. I would expectd
> > that most devoted Catholics and Mormons feel that they accept Jesus Christ as
> > their personal savior and have developed a personal relationship with Jesus.
> >


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  8 23:31:06 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:31:06 EST
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.183106.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is--for me--a really constructive elaboration in the discussion. Yes,
the concept of "saved" seems to be more important than what I said earlier
(e.g., "have a personal realtionship with Jesus"). Still, the definition of
SAVED given below doesn't strike me as different from anything that a
Catholic or a Mormon would not agree to. So where is the essence?

Let me reiterate that I don't see this as a theological discussion but a
sociolinguistic one. That is, I am not interested in the theological
relevance of the responses, but rather how the religious responses correlate
with the treminology.


In a message dated 11/8/1999 5:20:02 PM, speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM writes:

<< I was in church yesterday with a friend; I am a regular attendee of this

Assemblies of God church, and my friend has a Catholic and Christian

Orthodox background. The bulletin advertised a membership class that

believers may attend. My friend expressed interest in attending the class,

and I said, "It says there that the class is for believers." He said, "I'm a

believer." I replied, "What they really mean is if you're saved." To me, a

believer was a person who is saved. Of course, the word "saved" opens

another can of worms, but while our theological definitions of "believer"

differ, he agrees that "saved" does not mean "believer," and he recognizes

that he is not saved. Far be it from me to discourage him from attending the

membership class; I only wanted him to understand what the bulletin meant.


This relates to the current Christianity topics because in many sects of

Christianity, you will find that people will define a Christian only as

someone who is saved. For example, a former Catholic schoolmate of mine told

me that one does not have to be Catholic to be Christian. I replied that

being Catholic does not automatically make one a Christian. He disagreed

with me, of course, but my definition differed from his in that being a

church member (any church) does not make one a Christian. By my definition,

Christianity is not something you are born into, such as Judaism or Islam.


Now, the definition of "saved," I'm sure, varies quite a lot between belief

systems. However, it seems that most people recognize the traditional

meaning: one must believe that Jesus Christ is God's son who died for

humankind's lost souls and rose from the grave; one must accept Jesus Christ

into one's life and surrender control to Him; one must confess sins and

display genuine repentance for them.


Does anyone know of instances where that definition is not accepted?


Amy

 >>


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Mon Nov  8 23:22:33 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:22:33 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.182233.0500.>

Andrea, would you address this state of being vs. location phenomenon in regards to
higher education?  I'm thinking of the British "at university" vs. the more
American "in college."  Or have I got it wrong?

"A. Vine" wrote:

> But "in the hospital" is an expression, having no bearing on whether there is
> one or many area hospital(s).  Not sure if "in the bed" is an expression in your
> example.
>
> Perhaps to get away from the connotation of "the" referring to a known hospital,
> the English say "in hospital".  It's more of a state, as in "in school" vs. "at
> school".  When talking about my father who is a doctor, I don't say, "he's in
> the hospital", I say "he's at the hospital".
>
> Pardon, I have vague recollections that this has already been discussed.
>
> Andrea

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                         "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Nov  8 23:50:26 1999
From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:50:26 PST
Subject: Missing Characters in NADS Abstract
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.155026.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Would Beverly Flanigan mind posting a version of the abstract for "Don or
Dawn?..." which includes the IPA symbols missing from the newsletter? There
seems to be at least one vowel that is coming through as a blank space.

Also, what symbol does [A] represent -- is it a rounded low back vowel
(upside-down-script-a) or an unrounded low back vowel (script-a)? I would
have thought unrounded, except that in Naomi Nagy's abstract, [A] is used
for Boston's low-back cot/caught vowel, generally written as rounded.

Incidentally, would it be so difficult to print the newsletter in a font
containing at least the more usual phonetic symbols?

DEJ

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Nov  9 02:13:51 1999
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:13:51 -0700
Subject: Gore as Blakean
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.191351.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My father-in-law emailed me this AM to report that on This Week (w/ Cokie
Roberts, Sam Donaldson, Geo. Will),  Will questioned Naomi Wolf (who just
became a Gore campaign consultant) about her characterization of Al Gore as
"Blakean."

Did anyone here see this and have any idea what they were talking about?
What constitutes a Blakean personality? Please don't tell me it refers to an
unappreciated, misunderstood genius.

Gareth Branwyn
Jargon Watch Editor
Wired


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 00:30:32 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:30:32 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.193032.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

4409 Copperhill Drive, Okemos MI 48864

>I was in church yesterday with a friend; I am a regular attendee of this
>Assemblies of God church, and my friend has a Catholic and Christian
>Orthodox background. The bulletin advertised a membership class that
>believers may attend. My friend expressed interest in attending the class,
>and I said, "It says there that the class is for believers." He said, "I'm a
>believer." I replied, "What they really mean is if you're saved." To me, a
>believer was a person who is saved. Of course, the word "saved" opens
>another can of worms, but while our theological definitions of "believer"
>differ, he agrees that "saved" does not mean "believer," and he recognizes
>that he is not saved. Far be it from me to discourage him from attending the
>membership class; I only wanted him to understand what the bulletin meant.
>
>This relates to the current Christianity topics because in many sects of
>Christianity, you will find that people will define a Christian only as
>someone who is saved. For example, a former Catholic schoolmate of mine told
>me that one does not have to be Catholic to be Christian. I replied that
>being Catholic does not automatically make one a Christian. He disagreed
>with me, of course, but my definition differed from his in that being a
>church member (any church) does not make one a Christian. By my definition,
>Christianity is not something you are born into, such as Judaism or Islam.
>
>Now, the definition of "saved," I'm sure, varies quite a lot between belief
>systems. However, it seems that most people recognize the traditional
>meaning: one must believe that Jesus Christ is God's son who died for
>humankind's lost souls and rose from the grave; one must accept Jesus Christ
>into one's life and surrender control to Him; one must confess sins and
>display genuine repentance for them.
>
>Does anyone know of instances where that definition is not accepted?
>
>Amy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: David Bergdahl <bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 12:15 PM
>Subject: Re: Christian suggestion
>
>
>>The anecdote about Christian business practices reminds me of an
>>experience I had teaching  Conrad's Heart of Darkness my first
>>year--1963--and we naturally explored what it meant for Marlow the
>>interior narrator of the tale to be compared to the Buddha.  One student
>>volunteered that just because he was a Buddhist that that  didn't mean
>>that he wasn't a Christian.  I explained that the Buddhists wouldn't
>>probably object to dual loyalties but that Christians certainly would. .
>>. but what I didn't understand was that for her Christian merely meant
>>"ethical person" and had little if any identification with any
>>institution.  In this manner the beginning teacher learns not to confuse
>>dictionary citations with what people mean. . .
>>____________________________________________________________________
>>David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
>>tel:  (740) 593-2783
>>366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
>>(740) 593-2818

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  9 00:29:29 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:29:29 EST
Subject: Gore as Blakean
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.192929.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is she talking about the poet William Blake? He used to sit around in the
back yard naked (with his wife)--this was in the early 1800s, much to
everyone's scandalation. And he wrote Tiger Triger Burning Bright. Doesn't
sound like the Al Gore I know and love.

Has anyone suggested that Al Gore has adopted the previous vice president's
political sensibility?


In a message dated 11/8/1999 8:19:35 PM, garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET writes:

<< My father-in-law emailed me this AM to report that on This Week (w/ Cokie

Roberts, Sam Donaldson, Geo. Will),  Will questioned Naomi Wolf (who just

became a Gore campaign consultant) about her characterization of Al Gore as

"Blakean."


Did anyone here see this and have any idea what they were talking about?

What constitutes a Blakean personality? Please don't tell me it refers to an

unappreciated, misunderstood genius.


Gareth Branwyn

Jargon Watch Editor

Wired >>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  9 00:31:31 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:31:31 EST
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.193131.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If Jesus is the answer, is Dennis Preston's home address the question?????


In a message dated 11/8/1999 8:26:11 PM, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:

<< 4409 Copperhill Drive, Okemos MI 48864 >>


From GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA  Tue Nov  9 00:23:34 1999
From: GRADMA at UVVM.UVIC.CA (No Name Available)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:23:34 PST
Subject: Christian suggestion
In-Reply-To: <199911080419.UAA11337@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.162334.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In all this discussion of "Who's a Christian? " you might enjoy this anecdote:

A couple of years ago, my stepdaughter,  who is an elder in the Christian
Reformed Church (an offshoot of Dutch Reformed), was staying with us, and left
her Bible on the bedside table. My cleaning lady, having dusted my Book of
Common Prayer every week for several months, said,  "Oh, I see your sleep-
over's a Christian." I'm stil wondering what that makes  li'l ol' Anglican
me?

Barbara Harris.


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Nov  9 02:32:21 1999
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:32:21 -0700
Subject: Gore as Blakean
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.193221.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oh they were most definitely referring to William Blake. At least I assumed
they were.

-----Original Message-----
From: RonButters at AOL.COM <RonButters at AOL.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 5:30 PM
Subject: Re: Gore as Blakean


>Is she talking about the poet William Blake? He used to sit around in the
>back yard naked (with his wife)--this was in the early 1800s, much to
>everyone's scandalation. And he wrote Tiger Triger Burning Bright. Doesn't
>sound like the Al Gore I know and love.
>
>Has anyone suggested that Al Gore has adopted the previous vice president's
>political sensibility?
>
>
>In a message dated 11/8/1999 8:19:35 PM, garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET writes:
>
><< My father-in-law emailed me this AM to report that on This Week (w/
Cokie
>
>Roberts, Sam Donaldson, Geo. Will),  Will questioned Naomi Wolf (who just
>
>became a Gore campaign consultant) about her characterization of Al Gore as
>
>"Blakean."
>
>
>Did anyone here see this and have any idea what they were talking about?
>
>What constitutes a Blakean personality? Please don't tell me it refers to
an
>
>unappreciated, misunderstood genius.
>
>
>Gareth Branwyn
>
>Jargon Watch Editor
>
>Wired >>
>


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 00:48:49 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:48:49 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.194849.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, it was the answer to the question about where the definition given of
"saved" might not fly.

>If Jesus is the answer, is Dennis Preston's home address the question?????
>
>
>In a message dated 11/8/1999 8:26:11 PM, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:
>
><< 4409 Copperhill Drive, Okemos MI 48864 >>

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Mon Nov  8 22:49:40 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:49:40 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.174940.0500.>

"A. Maberry" wrote:The case of Islam is exactly the same as that of
Christianity. No one is

> born a Muslim, only of parents who are Muslim. And, unlike the case of
> Judaism, both "Muslim" and "Christian" imply absolutely no ethnic
> identity.
>

An ex of mine was a Lutheran of German-Norwegian (Illinois-N. Dakota) stock,
who, whenever she saw a Jello salad would gesture boldly and exclaim "Behold!
The food of my people!"  This joke got started because of the ubiquitous jello
salads at Lutheran "covered dish" (i.e., potluck) suppers in that part of the
country.  So, perhaps one can be a little bit culturally Lutheran, if not
ethnically so.

Several people  I know and I refer to ourselves as "culturally Catholic".
(Others refer to themselves as "recovering Catholics", of course.)  The idea
behind cultural Catholicism is kind of like ethnic Judaism--we were brought up
with ritual, righteous guilt, mysteries, and such that we're not altogether sure
that we want to get rid of.  Be an atheist?  That's fine.  But give up icons and
incense and Latin?  Well, that's a bit harder.  They're so cool...

I've also been trying to popularize the term "apathetic" as a religious term on
the model of "agnostic" and "atheist".  An apathetic is a person who doesn't
care whether there's a god.

Apathetically yours,
Lynne, who only sings the Latin verses of Christmas carols 'cause they're
prettier and more mysterious

P.S. A guy in my Unitarian-Universalist fellowship has a bumpersticker I like:
"MILITANT AGNOSTIC--I don't know and neither do you!"

P.P.S.  I find it appropriate that we're having this discussion at a time when
the Pope is angering all of South Asia.  His message that we should celebrate
all religions, but convert their members is the kind of thing that would make
me  write "LOGIC!" in the margins of a freshman paper.

P.P.S.  Ok, I'll shut up now...


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Nov  9 00:38:26 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:38:26 -0800
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.163826.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi Bob (couldn't resist, take a drink),

I would agree that "in college" is a state along the same lines as "in the
hospital".  The many professors on this list may be "at the college", but I
suspect few of them are "in college".  Then again, they can't be "at college"
either, because you can only be "at college" when you're "in college".

Or is this just me?

Reminds me of some list of college student terms I remember reading awhile
back.  The term that got me was "home home", which means where one's family
lives, as opposed to one's dorm room or apartment.

Andrea

Bob Haas wrote:
>
> Andrea, would you address this state of being vs. location phenomenon in regards to
> higher education?  I'm thinking of the British "at university" vs. the more
> American "in college."  Or have I got it wrong?
>
> "A. Vine" wrote:
>
> > But "in the hospital" is an expression, having no bearing on whether there is
> > one or many area hospital(s).  Not sure if "in the bed" is an expression in your
> > example.
> >
> > Perhaps to get away from the connotation of "the" referring to a known hospital,
> > the English say "in hospital".  It's more of a state, as in "in school" vs. "at
> > school".  When talking about my father who is a doctor, I don't say, "he's in
> > the hospital", I say "he's at the hospital".
> >
> > Pardon, I have vague recollections that this has already been discussed.
> >
> > Andrea
>
> --
>
> Bob Haas
> Department of English
> High Point University
> University of North Carolina at Greensboro
>
>                          "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  9 00:54:07 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:54:07 EST
Subject: Mexican elections, sandwiches
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.195407.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MEXICAN ELECTIONS (continued)

   These aren't English words, perhaps, but they were in the Miami Herald's Cancun edition.
   "Dedazo" is the tap of the finger.  The current president of Mexican has fingered his successor (who won yesterday{s election).  This is also called "the charge" (la cargata?).

--------------------------------------------------------
MEXICAN SANDWICHES

   This is the menu from a sandwich chain called La Sandwicheria:

CLASICO--jamon, pollo, queso manchego, pimiento, ceballo
ESPECIAL--jamon, salami, pavo, q. mozarela, tomate, lechuga, ceb., aceituna
PIZZA--salami, champinones, q. mozarela, salsa de tomate
TUNA MELT
PEPITO--filete de res, frijol, guacamole, tomate
STROGANOFF
BBQ
YUCATECO--lomo de puerco, q. manchego, salsa de tomate, hueva
TRADICIONAL--pollo, heuva, queso manchego, aguacate
SOFIA--pollo, tocino, queso crema, queso amarillo}SUPREMO--pechuga de pava, salsa de champinones
POBLANO--rajas de chile poblano, queso panela, crema, elote, cebolla
VEGETARIANO
CAJUN
BURGER


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Tue Nov  9 00:53:16 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:53:16 -0500
Subject: born-again (was Christian suggestion)
In-Reply-To: <v0422080ab44cf42a4fda@[216.47.144.24]>
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.195316.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Greg Pulliam wrote:

>This is the way I have experienced what we used to call "born-again"
>Christians using the term "Christian" lately, also.  When these folks
>use the term "Christian," they are excluding members of a vast number
>of mainstream denominations--Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans,
>most Catholics.

So "Christian" has something in common with "catholic," a term
often co-opted by Roman Catholics?

Bethany


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Nov  9 02:22:53 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 18:22:53 -0800
Subject: Christian suggestion
In-Reply-To: <38275383.C87F72AF@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.182253.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> "A. Maberry" wrote:The case of Islam is exactly the same as that of
> Christianity. No one is
>
> > born a Muslim, only of parents who are Muslim. And, unlike the case of
> > Judaism, both "Muslim" and "Christian" imply absolutely no ethnic
> > identity.
> >
>
> An ex of mine was a Lutheran of German-Norwegian (Illinois-N. Dakota) stock,
> who, whenever she saw a Jello salad would gesture boldly and exclaim "Behold!
> The food of my people!"  This joke got started because of the ubiquitous jello
> salads at Lutheran "covered dish" (i.e., potluck) suppers in that part of the
> country.  So, perhaps one can be a little bit culturally Lutheran, if not
> ethnically so.

I am myself a mostly "German-Norwegian" and more or less of a Lutheran by
training (mostly less), but since I grew up in the Pacific Northwest I
missed out on virtually all of the "Lutheran culture". I associate jello
salads with the midwest generally not specifically Lutherans. I would
imagine Methodist picnics with plenty of "hot dishes and jello salads."
However I *have* heard Campbell's Cream of Mushroom soup refered to
as "Lutheran binder" for cooking purposes.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu
who has learned more about Lutheran
culture and Lutherans from Garrison
Keillor than he ever did in church.


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Tue Nov  9 02:28:52 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 19:28:52 -0700
Subject: Christian suggestion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.10.9911081813190.29279-100000@saul5.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.192852.0700.>

My mother's family is Norwegian-Lutheran, and jell-o salads are definitely
part of that culture. Woe to the odd family member who dislikes jell-o! No
one knows more recipes for jell-o than a Lutheran from the Midwest.

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of A. Maberry
Sent: Monday, November 08, 1999 7:23 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Christian suggestion


On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> "A. Maberry" wrote:The case of Islam is exactly the same as that of
> Christianity. No one is
>
> > born a Muslim, only of parents who are Muslim. And, unlike the case of
> > Judaism, both "Muslim" and "Christian" imply absolutely no ethnic
> > identity.
> >
>
> An ex of mine was a Lutheran of German-Norwegian (Illinois-N. Dakota)
stock,
> who, whenever she saw a Jello salad would gesture boldly and exclaim
"Behold!
> The food of my people!"  This joke got started because of the ubiquitous
jello
> salads at Lutheran "covered dish" (i.e., potluck) suppers in that part of
the
> country.  So, perhaps one can be a little bit culturally Lutheran, if not
> ethnically so.

I am myself a mostly "German-Norwegian" and more or less of a Lutheran by
training (mostly less), but since I grew up in the Pacific Northwest I
missed out on virtually all of the "Lutheran culture". I associate jello
salads with the midwest generally not specifically Lutherans. I would
imagine Methodist picnics with plenty of "hot dishes and jello salads."
However I *have* heard Campbell's Cream of Mushroom soup refered to
as "Lutheran binder" for cooking purposes.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu
who has learned more about Lutheran
culture and Lutherans from Garrison
Keillor than he ever did in church.


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov  9 02:56:04 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:56:04 -0500
Subject: Gore as Blakean
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.215604.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

>Did anyone here see this and have any idea what they were talking about?
>What constitutes a Blakean personality? Please don't tell me it refers to an
>unappreciated, misunderstood genius.

Transcript can be found at

http://abcnews.go.com/onair/thisweek/transcripts/tw991107_naomiwolf_trans.html

For the record here's a significant portion (hard to quote the right bit in a
transcript):


WILL: Well this is about, as you say, how Al Gore?s mind works. You say that deep
inside he?s a Blakian, you?re referring to the mystical poet who saw the world in a
grain of sand. Tell us what it means for Al Gore to be a Blakian.?

WOLF: I can?t believe ? I?m pleased, but I can?t believe that this early in the
morning on this show, we?re talking about 19 century romantic and mystical poets.

WILL: We?re not and it?s not literature.

WOLF: Pardon me?

WILL: We?re very literate.

WOLF: Very literate, it?s true.

DONALDSON: Some of us are.

ROBERTS: ?Tiger, tiger, burning bright.? We can do Blake.

WOLF: What I?m talking about is a vision that incorporates many disparate parts for
a whole that?s more than the sum of its parts. Again, look at his positions that he?s
laid out already.
     And in all of the brue-ha-ha over details that I think are not that important
to the American people, there is something very consistent and coherent that he?s been
doing with that mind, that sees different parts and how they can fit together to
solve complicated problems.
    His family, working family?s policies ? there are many, many disparate elements.
Some seem really small, how do you get working parents home in time so that they
have a chance to read a bedtime story to their kids.
     Well, that has to do with a whole way that we?ve developed that is not so good
for working families, all the way to minimum wage issues, benefits, labor issues,
after school programs. Who?s taking care of kids after school between 3:00 and 6:00?


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Nov  9 03:22:33 1999
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 21:22:33 -0600
Subject: Gore as Blakean
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.212233.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  In response to the question about Albert Gore being labeled "Blakean" by
Naomi Wolf:

    I saw the program in which George Will asked Naomi Wolf what she meant
by describing Gore as Blakean in one of her writings.  I listened carefully
but was unable to fully understand  her reply.  It had something to do with
Blake's mind being able to grasp complexities and nuances, and Gore
presumably being able to do the same.

     On a general note, what struck me most about  Ms. Wolf is that she  is
pretty free and loose in her use of written langauge--as when she once
wrote about Al Gore having "goofy" ideas, when  she merely meant  that
those ideas  are  a bit ahead of their time.   As a result, when she was
questioned about the meaning of some of her statements, she repeatedly fell
back on saying that their meaning was being "twisted" or  that the
statements were "taken out of context."

-----Gerald Cohen









>My father-in-law emailed me this AM to report that on This Week (w/ Cokie
>Roberts, Sam Donaldson, Geo. Will),  Will questioned Naomi Wolf (who just
>became a Gore campaign consultant) about her characterization of Al Gore as
>"Blakean."
>
>Did anyone here see this and have any idea what they were talking about?
>What constitutes a Blakean personality? Please don't tell me it refers to an
>unappreciated, misunderstood genius.
>
>Gareth Branwyn
>Jargon Watch Editor
>Wired



gcohen at umr.edu


From bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET  Tue Nov  9 04:40:39 1999
From: bkane at TIGGER.JVNC.NET (Bernard W. Kane)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:40:39 -0500
Subject: 1) orthography and 2) new coinage
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.234039.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

1) properly, brouhaha. Restraining myself mightily to keep from commenting
on M-W's misguided etymology of this.
2) attempt to launch "Nantucket Triangle" only partly successful (as well as
in poor taste, considering dreadful loss of lives):
"There will probably be no clear verdict for months on what caused the
demise of EgyptAir 990. That uncomfortable reality left many seeking
explanations that sometimes bordered on the absurd. EgyptAir chairman
Mohammed Fahim Rayan seemed ready to subscribe to a 'new Bermuda Triangle
theory'--namely that there is a curse on aircraft traveling up the Eastern
seaboard of the U.S., a graveyard that now contains the remains not only of
John F. Kennedy Jr. but also of some of the passengers and crew aboard TWA
Flight 800. No less than Mubarak himself seemed taken with the theory,
urging the U.S. to investigate 'something in the atmosphere, something in
the weather.' For many, that explanation was better than none at all."

"Out of Thin Air"
Nadya Labi
TIME
Vol. 154 No. 20
November 15, 1999
p. 56 col. 3

Remember: you read it here first.

Bernie Kane
word person
mailto:bkane at tigger.jvnc.net


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov  9 04:52:34 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 23:52:34 -0500
Subject: cafeteria Catholics
Message-ID: <MON.8.NOV.1999.235234.0500.>

Continuing on our discussion of religion, the cover story on Tuesday's
Salon (www.salon.com) is about Kevin Smith's new film _Dogma_, which the
Catholic League is protesting.  Here's a bit quoting some of the
Catholic League people, but there's lots more interesting usage of
religious terms in the article:


                                But it's still hard to understand why
Smith's movie -- or any work of any sort --
                                shouldn't be taken by Catholics on its
own terms. (To his credit, even Pat
                                Buchanan dropped into the Brooklyn Art
Museum last week to see Ofili's
                                painting. He decided it was offensive --
but noted that his training as a journalist
                                required that he see it for himself
before making any pronouncement.) When I
                                mentioned to both Donohue and McCloskey
that Kevin Smith says he is a
                                practicing Catholic -- noting that
they'd probably consider him a "cafeteria
                                Catholic," one who picks and chooses
from among the doctrines -- they both
                                dismissed his claim out of hand. "A
cafeteria Catholic is basically a person who's
                                saying that their Catholicism is their
own," McCloskey explains. "But it's not the
                                church's. And the definition of that is
the Protestant."

Lynne

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  9 08:16:00 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 03:16:00 EST
Subject: born-again
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.031600.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Born again" is often used in conjunction with the biblical verse, 'for we
have all sinned and come short of the glory of God.'  "Born again," then, is
an acknowledgment of this shortcoming, an admittance that we have "backslid."
  However, it further indicates that we have seen the "error of our ways,"
that we have "confessed with our mouths," and that our sins have been
forgiven.  Thus, our slates have been wiped clean, and we are, once again,
"on the road to Salvation."
                        PAT


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Tue Nov  9 08:08:15 1999
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 00:08:15 -0800
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
In-Reply-To: <38275908.792487B9@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.000815.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>raised Jewish - to me and my family, anyone whose religion involves Jesus
>Christ
>as a major figure is Christian.
>
>Andrea

What she says...

Rima


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  9 08:45:25 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 03:45:25 EST
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.034525.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 I guess I see the difference between "in college/the hospital/the
house/school" and "at (the) college/the hospital/the house/school" as an
aspectual issue.  "in (the) __" represents longer duration, covering a much
longer period of time than does "at (the) _," which indicates shorter periods
of time.  Maybe it's the difference between a continuous (stative) and
continual (repetitive) situation.
                                PAT


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Nov  9 10:29:17 1999
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 05:29:17 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.052917.0500.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: Christian suggestion


>I've also been trying to popularize the term "apathetic" as a religious
term on
>the model of "agnostic" and "atheist".  An apathetic is a person who
doesn't
>care whether there's a god.


I've been using 'apatheist' for that...

bkd


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 12:37:45 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:37:45 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.073745.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ain't we done this duplication = "authentic, etc..." before (outside
college talk)? Recall the old TV ad where a couple argue about an air
condiitioner (actually some sort of air freshener), which ends with the
memorable line: "It's not an air conditioner air conditioner, it's an air
conditioner air conditioner."

dInIs dInIs


>Hi Bob (couldn't resist, take a drink),
>
>I would agree that "in college" is a state along the same lines as "in the
>hospital".  The many professors on this list may be "at the college", but I
>suspect few of them are "in college".  Then again, they can't be "at college"
>either, because you can only be "at college" when you're "in college".
>
>Or is this just me?
>
>Reminds me of some list of college student terms I remember reading awhile
>back.  The term that got me was "home home", which means where one's family
>lives, as opposed to one's dorm room or apartment.
>
>Andrea
>
>Bob Haas wrote:
>>
>> Andrea, would you address this state of being vs. location phenomenon in
>>regards to
>> higher education?  I'm thinking of the British "at university" vs. the more
>> American "in college."  Or have I got it wrong?
>>
>> "A. Vine" wrote:
>>
>> > But "in the hospital" is an expression, having no bearing on whether there
>>is
>> > one or many area hospital(s).  Not sure if "in the bed" is an expression
>>in your
>> > example.
>> >
>> > Perhaps to get away from the connotation of "the" referring to a known
>>hospital,
>> > the English say "in hospital".  It's more of a state, as in "in school"
>>vs. "at
>> > school".  When talking about my father who is a doctor, I don't say, "he's
>>in
>> > the hospital", I say "he's at the hospital".
>> >
>> > Pardon, I have vague recollections that this has already been discussed.
>> >
>> > Andrea
>>
>> --
>>
>> Bob Haas
>> Department of English
>> High Point University
>> University of North Carolina at Greensboro
>>
>>                          "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 13:16:37 1999
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:16:37 -0600
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.071637.0600.>

Bruce Dykes wrote:

> From: Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu>

>>I've also been trying to popularize . . . "apathetic" as a religious
>>term on the model of "agnostic" and "atheist".  An apathetic is a person
>>who doesn't care whether there's a god.

> I've been using 'apatheist' for that...

> bkd

Sounds sort of like my way of declining a proffered cup of coffee:
"Sorry,
my religion doesn't let me drink coffee.  You see, I'm an Orthodox
Hedonist
and coffee gives me no pleasure."

I never figured out how coffee could smell so good and taste so bad.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!

P.S.: Lynne and Bruce, "apatheist" is not quite the term that first
comes to
mind.  I have friends who are "constipationists": they just don't give a
s...


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 12:38:36 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:38:36 -0500
Subject: Mexican elections, sandwiches
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.073836.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is Barry's Spanish better than we think, and is he pulling our legs with
this "cargata"?

dInIs

>MEXICAN ELECTIONS (continued)
>
>   These aren't English words, perhaps, but they were in the Miami Herald's
>Cancun edition.
>   "Dedazo" is the tap of the finger.  The current president of Mexican has
>fingered his successor (who won yesterday{s election).  This is also called
>"the charge" (la cargata?).
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>MEXICAN SANDWICHES
>
>   This is the menu from a sandwich chain called La Sandwicheria:
>
>CLASICO--jamon, pollo, queso manchego, pimiento, ceballo
>ESPECIAL--jamon, salami, pavo, q. mozarela, tomate, lechuga, ceb., aceituna
>PIZZA--salami, champinones, q. mozarela, salsa de tomate
>TUNA MELT
>PEPITO--filete de res, frijol, guacamole, tomate
>STROGANOFF
>BBQ
>YUCATECO--lomo de puerco, q. manchego, salsa de tomate, hueva
>TRADICIONAL--pollo, heuva, queso manchego, aguacate
>SOFIA--pollo, tocino, queso crema, queso amarillo}SUPREMO--pechuga de pava,
>salsa de champinones
>POBLANO--rajas de chile poblano, queso panela, crema, elote, cebolla
>VEGETARIANO
>CAJUN
>BURGER

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Sat Nov  6 02:49:37 1999
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 18:49:37 -0800
Subject: Mexican shoes; Mexican ice cream
Message-ID: <FRI.5.NOV.1999.184937.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nine out of 10 men who try Camels prefer women..

Bob

Bob Haas wrote:

> What does it taste like:  a Lucky Strike or a Camel no-filter?


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 15:18:01 1999
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:18:01 -0500
Subject: Mormons, Baptists, and Christians
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.101801.0500.>

Ad, on a closely related subject, a Jew who accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and savior is
a convert, not a "completed Jew."

"A. Vine" wrote:

> raised Jewish - to me and my family, anyone whose religion involves Jesus Christ
> as a major figure is Christian.
>
> Andrea
> (who does not have a Christian name)
>
> beth lee simon wrote:
> >
> > Another angle on the use of _Christian_ vis a vis being Catholic:
> > as a child, Jewish, in Des Moines IA, I heard other Jewish kids use _Christian_
> > to mean Protestant when distinguishing gentiles, i.e. "So and so is Christian."
> > "No, she's Catholic."
> >
> > And sort of conversely, when my mother told me of wanting to go to the
> > "Christian" school as a child because her best friend did, she meant the Catholic
> > elementary school.
> >
> > beth simon
> > assistant professor, linguistics and english
> > indiana university purdue university
> > simon at ipfw.edu
> > or
> > simon at home2.mysolution.com
> >
> > RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
> >
> > > Someone writes:
> > > <Now, let's get back to making this a dialectal discussion> and goes on to
> > > discuss pronunciation of BAPTIST.
> > >
> > > But of course the discussion of the social differences in the meaning of the
> > > term CHRISTIAN is a very interesting question in social dialectology.
> > > Clearly, there is a certain subset of relgious persons who use the term
> > > CHRISTIAN to designate only persons whose particular religious views are
> > > very, very close to their own. Others use the term much more ecumenically.
> > > There is also a grey area here, because the former are often given to such
> > > statements as, "To be a Christian, you must accept Jesus Christ as your
> > > personal savior and develop a personal relationship with Jesus." But such
> > > statements in themselves are open to various interpretations. I would expectd
> > > that most devoted Catholics and Mormons feel that they accept Jesus Christ as
> > > their personal savior and have developed a personal relationship with Jesus.

____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl            tel:  (740)
593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:  (740) 593-2818


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Nov  9 16:35:40 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 08:35:40 -0800
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.083540.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- "A. Vine" <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:
> RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> But "in the hospital" is an expression, having no
> bearing on whether there is
> one or many area hospital(s).  Not sure if "in the
> bed" is an expression in your
> example.
>...
> Andrea
>
But it may have its origin in a time when even having
ONE hospital available was a big deal for most people!
 (Whereas during the same period all but the poorest
households might easily have had at least two beds.)

JIM

JIM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  9 19:45:11 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:45:11 EST
Subject: NADS gaffes
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.144511.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<<  would it be so difficult to print the newsletter in a font
containing at least the more usual phonetic symbols? >>

That was another production error that wasn't caught. The newsletter was
delivered in electronic form to the printer, with an IPA font which somehow
the printer didn't pick up.

Furthermore, for some reason the pdf version available at the ADS website
also did not pick up the IPA characters. I just now tried to correct that,
without success. Will try again.

I'm embarrassed to admit that even the DARE queries are the wrong ones -
repeated from the January issue rather than the new ones DARE editors had
sent. You'll find the correct new queries at
http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/NADS999.htm

No excuses, but I promise careful quality control next time.

- Allan Metcalf

- Allan Metcalf


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Nov  9 18:17:19 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 10:17:19 -0800
Subject: Brew haha!
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.101719.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Grant Barrett wrote:
>
>
> WOLF: What I?m talking about is a vision that incorporates many disparate parts for
> a whole that?s more than the sum of its parts. Again, look at his positions that he?s
> laid out already.
>      And in all of the brue-ha-ha over details that I think are not that important
> to the American people, there is something very consistent and coherent that he?s been
> doing with that mind, that sees different parts and how they can fit together to
> solve complicated problems.

<RANT>
Brue-ha-ha?  Hahaha, doesn't anyone run spell-check before publishing?

Did I mention that I read an article in the Murky News (San Jose Mercury News)
where the writer said that "so-and-so clapped her hands in the air like a
flamingo dancer"?

Argh.
</RANT>


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Tue Nov  9 11:13:08 1999
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 11:13:08 +0000
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.111308.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".


(BTW, "college", in general, in the UK roughly equates to the community
college in north America, with similar services and types of
qualifications).



> Andrea, would you address this state of being vs. location phenomenon in
> regards to
> higher education?  I'm thinking of the British "at university" vs. the more
> American "in college."  Or have I got it wrong?
>
> "A. Vine" wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps to get away from the connotation of "the" referring to a known
hospital,
>> the English say "in hospital".  It's more of a state, as in "in school" vs.
"at
>> school".  When talking about my father who is a doctor, I don't say, "he's in
>> the hospital", I say "he's at the hospital".


--Aaron



________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Tue Nov  9 20:15:16 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:15:16 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <199911092010.UAA02015@pisa.ling.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.151516.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Aaron E. Drews wrote:

>Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
>would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
>physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
>of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".

I have said "in college" all my life.

Bethany


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Nov  9 20:14:51 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:14:51 -0500
Subject: Brew haha!
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.151451.0500.>

They're very colorful, but they do tend to kill the grass in your front yard if you're not
careful.

"A. Vine" wrote:

> Did I mention that I read an article in the Murky News (San Jose Mercury News)
> where the writer said that "so-and-so clapped her hands in the air like a
> flamingo dancer"?

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                             "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Nov  9 20:22:47 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:22:47 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.152247.0500.>

And that is why we study dialects, Aaron.  Around here, a common answer to the
query: "Well, what's Johnny doin' now that he's finished high school?" would be:
"Oh, he's in college."  Now, I say common in my community--that's the southeastern
US, NC, mountains, Watauga County, Boone to be precise.  I realize that some
individuals might never say "in college," but some, at least a few, would.

And I was trying to both compare and contrast "at university" and "in college" as
phrases that both indicate states of being and location.

Maybe "in college" is a southern thing?  Any takers?  Has this been discussed
before?

"Aaron E. Drews" wrote:

> Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
> would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
> physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
> of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".
>
> (BTW, "college", in general, in the UK roughly equates to the community
> college in north America, with similar services and types of
> qualifications).

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                         "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Tue Nov  9 20:38:02 1999
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen Miller)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 15:38:02 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911091514560.15496-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.153802.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I have said "in college" all my life.

>Bethany

As have I. I was "in college" for four years or "I went to the University
of Whatever" for four years. "At University" and a difference between "a
college" and "a university" were things I merely pointed out to my ESL
students but never employed in my own speech.

Katy


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Tue Nov  9 22:18:40 1999
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron E. Drews)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:18:40 +0000
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.221840.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I should have said "I can't think of an instance _in the UK_...."  I was
certainly "in college", or even "in school" getting a bachelor's degree a
few years ago as a state of being.  I would have been "at college" as a
location to pick up a book or to talk with one of my profs.  I don't speak
southern (except for a very occasional y'all), coming from L.A.




> And that is why we study dialects, Aaron.  Around here, a common answer to the
> query: "Well, what's Johnny doin' now that he's finished high school?" would
>be:
> "Oh, he's in college."  Now, I say common in my community--that's the
>southeastern
> US, NC, mountains, Watauga County, Boone to be precise.  I realize that some
> individuals might never say "in college," but some, at least a few, would.
>
> And I was trying to both compare and contrast "at university" and "in college"
>as
> phrases that both indicate states of being and location.
>
> Maybe "in college" is a southern thing?  Any takers?  Has this been discussed
> before?

>
> "Aaron E. Drews" wrote:
>
>> Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
>> would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
>> physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
>> of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".



________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron      Departments of English Language and
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                    Theoretical & Applied Linguistics

 "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
  --Death


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov  9 22:20:33 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:20:33 -0500
Subject: Brew haha!
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.172033.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Tuesday, November 9, 1999, A. Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:

><RANT>
>Brue-ha-ha?  Hahaha, doesn't anyone run spell-check before
>publishing?
></RANT>


Well, it was a transcript, and there was probably the usual reminder on the web page
that it was a quick-and-dirty version. Also, transcription work is boring and a
friend who did it for quick cash used to watch soaps as she typed. Not exactly a
quality-promoting situation.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Nov  9 22:29:45 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:29:45 -0800
Subject: Brew haha!
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.142945.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Grant Barrett wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, November 9, 1999, A. Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:
>
> ><RANT>
> >Brue-ha-ha?  Hahaha, doesn't anyone run spell-check before
> >publishing?
> ></RANT>
>
> Well, it was a transcript, and there was probably the usual reminder on the web page
> that it was a quick-and-dirty version. Also, transcription work is boring and a
> friend who did it for quick cash used to watch soaps as she typed. Not exactly a
> quality-promoting situation.

<furtherant>
I didn't say proofread, I said spell-check, which is darn fast.  Admittedly, the
"flamingo" won't be caught by a brain-dead spell-checker, but "brue-ha-ha" would
be.  Download a free copy of Netscape Communicator, load your page into Page
Composer, and click "Spell".
</furtherant>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov  9 22:46:23 1999
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 14:46:23 -0800
Subject: Brew haha!
In-Reply-To: <-1269954469gbarrett@americandialect.org>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.144623.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey, no need for any apologies.  Inspired by this thread (and especially
Andrea's subject line), I've decided to quit my job and go start a new brew
pub, now that I have the perfect name for it.  (All right--go ahead,
everybody, send in those messages telling me it's been done.) :)

Peter Mc.


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov  9 22:46:31 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:46:31 -0500
Subject: Brew haha!
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.174631.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Tuesday, November 9, 1999, A. Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> wrote:
>I didn't say proofread, I said spell-check, which is darn fast.  Admittedly, the
>"flamingo" won't be caught by a brain-dead spell-checker, but "brue-ha-ha" would
>be.  Download a free copy of Netscape Communicator, load your page into Page
>Composer, and click "Spell".

Only spell-checkers don't necessarily offer a replacement word for that particular
spelling (I just checked two that didn't) even if they catch it,  whatever clown is at
the keyboard may let it slide without further effort.

I am completely on your side.


--
Grant Barrett

http://www.worldnewyork.com/


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  9 23:32:59 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:32:59 EST
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.183259.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So have I and everyone I know!   In fact, the first time I heard the phrase,
"at college," I had to do some serious hypothesis testing.  I think the
phrase was, "away at college."  Since it was uttered by a somewhat
pretentious non-Southerner, I assumed that the person was just, "talkin'
proper."

If one can be "in high school," one can be "in college."  I guess the reason
people don't say "in university," is that a university is a larger, more
impersonal, less familiar environment.  I guess it's analogous to the
dichotomy "Christians" make when they talk about being "in the world," but
not "of the world."   The former would make one unconcerned with worldly
affairs, not personally involved; the latter would be the opposite.
                            PAT


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 23:26:48 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:26:48 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911091514560.15496-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.182648.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:15 PM 11/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Aaron E. Drews wrote:
>
> >Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
> >would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
> >physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
> >of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".
>
>I have said "in college" all my life.
>
>Bethany


Me too--but not "in university."  (Minnesota born and bred.)


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  9 23:25:13 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:25:13 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
In-Reply-To: <38275383.C87F72AF@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.182513.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 05:49 PM 11/8/99 -0500, Lynne Murphy wrote:

>An ex of mine was a Lutheran of German-Norwegian (Illinois-N. Dakota) stock,
>who, whenever she saw a Jello salad would gesture boldly and exclaim "Behold!
>The food of my people!"  This joke got started because of the ubiquitous jello
>salads at Lutheran "covered dish" (i.e., potluck) suppers in that part of the
>country.  So, perhaps one can be a little bit culturally Lutheran, if not
>ethnically so.
>
>Several people  I know and I refer to ourselves as "culturally Catholic".
>(Others refer to themselves as "recovering Catholics", of course.)  The idea
>behind cultural Catholicism is kind of like ethnic Judaism--we were brought up
>with ritual, righteous guilt, mysteries, and such that we're not
>altogether sure
>that we want to get rid of.  Be an atheist?  That's fine.  But give up
>icons and
>incense and Latin?  Well, that's a bit harder.  They're so cool...
Cultural Lutherans can't give up Bach and Buxtehude, or the wondrously
inspired singing of small-town church choirs....  But the preaching and the
guilt?  Ah, that's another matter.  In fact, I was tempted to write
earlier, in response to the puzzlement over Mormon and Orthodox Jewish
early marriages, that Lutherans (and probably Mormons) were always
lectured, citing Paul, "It is better to marry than to burn."  Not much
subtlety there.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 00:53:35 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 19:53:35 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.195335.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You didn't spend none of that life in the UK though Bethany.

dInIs (who spent damn little of his there too; couldn't speak the dang
language for one thing; went to Poland instead; learnt it quick)

>On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Aaron E. Drews wrote:
>
>>Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
>>would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
>>physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
>>of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".
>
>I have said "in college" all my life.
>
>Bethany

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From greg at PULLIAM.ORG  Wed Nov 10 00:58:39 1999
From: greg at PULLIAM.ORG (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:58:39 -0600
Subject: Christian suggestion
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991109181512.00b84170@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.185839.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In my Episcopal Church upbringing, we referred to ourselves as
"Catholic Lite--Same Great Ritual, with 1/3 the Guilt"


>At 05:49 PM 11/8/99 -0500, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
>>An ex of mine was a Lutheran of German-Norwegian (Illinois-N. Dakota) stock,
>>who, whenever she saw a Jello salad would gesture boldly and exclaim "Behold!
>>The food of my people!"  This joke got started because of the
>>ubiquitous jello
>>salads at Lutheran "covered dish" (i.e., potluck) suppers in that part of the
>>country.  So, perhaps one can be a little bit culturally Lutheran, if not
>>ethnically so.
>>
>>Several people  I know and I refer to ourselves as "culturally Catholic".
>>(Others refer to themselves as "recovering Catholics", of course.)  The idea
>>behind cultural Catholicism is kind of like ethnic Judaism--we were
>>brought up
>>with ritual, righteous guilt, mysteries, and such that we're not
>>altogether sure
>>that we want to get rid of.  Be an atheist?  That's fine.  But give up
>>icons and
>>incense and Latin?  Well, that's a bit harder.  They're so cool...
>Cultural Lutherans can't give up Bach and Buxtehude, or the wondrously
>inspired singing of small-town church choirs....  But the preaching and the
>guilt?  Ah, that's another matter.  In fact, I was tempted to write
>earlier, in response to the puzzlement over Mormon and Orthodox Jewish
>early marriages, that Lutherans (and probably Mormons) were always
>lectured, citing Paul, "It is better to marry than to burn."  Not much
>subtlety there.

-
Greg


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 10 01:02:44 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:02:44 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <199911100049.TAA63682@pilot002.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.200244.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>You didn't spend none of that life in the UK though Bethany.

Wrong, DInIs! I was there from Aug. 1971 to Aug. 1972. But ... so what?

Bethany


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 01:23:12 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:23:12 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.202312.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So what is right on. One year don't cut it for prepositions (ask folks who
have been learnin' English for years).

dInIs

>On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>You didn't spend none of that life in the UK though Bethany.
>
>Wrong, DInIs! I was there from Aug. 1971 to Aug. 1972. But ... so what?
>
>Bethany

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 10 01:21:06 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:21:06 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <199911100118.UAA18630@pilot002.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.202106.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>So what is right on. One year don't cut it for prepositions (ask folks who
>have been learnin' English for years).

But we were not asked if we had lived in England. We wre asked if we said
"in  college" -- weren't we?

???

Bethany


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 10 02:44:44 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:44:44 EST
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.214444.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/9/1999 7:08:58 PM Central Standard Time,
greg at PULLIAM.ORG writes:

<<
  >>
s for the ambiguous (at least for me) quote, "It is better to marry than to
burn," I have always wondered if the word burn is a reference to
desire/passion or to hell's fire!  Maybe it is a double entendre, with a
reference to both!   For some reason, every time I ask the question, I get an
evasive response!
                    PAT


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 10 03:57:52 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 23:57:52 -0400
Subject: Christian suggestion
In-Reply-To: <0.aa648a85.255a361c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.9.NOV.1999.235752.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In a message dated 11/9/1999 7:08:58 PM Central Standard Time,
>greg at PULLIAM.ORG writes:
>
><<
>  >>
>s for the ambiguous (at least for me) quote, "It is better to marry than to
>burn," I have always wondered if the word burn is a reference to
>desire/passion or to hell's fire!  Maybe it is a double entendre, with a
>reference to both!   For some reason, every time I ask the question, I get an
>evasive response!
>                    PAT

Or Paul could have just been offering useful advice to very inept cooks.

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 10 04:11:51 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:11:51 -0400
Subject: Brew haha!
In-Reply-To: <1423522.3151147583@dhcp-218-200-055.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.001151.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:46 PM -0800 11/9/99, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>Hey, no need for any apologies.  Inspired by this thread (and especially
>Andrea's subject line), I've decided to quit my job and go start a new brew
>pub, now that I have the perfect name for it.  (All right--go ahead,
>everybody, send in those messages telling me it's been done.) :)
>
What you want, I think, is a microbrew pub/comedy club.  But you're right;
it probably HAS been done.  Wait, let me check...   Hmm, a quick and dirty
AltaVista search turns up two Brew/Comedy places, but in both cases (Wayne,
PA and U. of Delaware) it's a coffee-house:  Brew-haha as in brewed coffee,
not beer.  There's also a site in San Francisco--

Brew Haha American Japantown,Fillmore San Francisco 1777 Steiner St &
Sutter (415) 929 7117. * * per person * * * W ood shingles hide the
entrance of...
          URL: www.digitallantern.com/san_francisco/r/3/r387.html
          Last modified on: 19-Nov-1997 - 10K bytes - in English

--but I couldn't access it, so I don't know whether we're pre-empted or
not.  But even if they're ALL coffee-houses-cum-comedy, they'll probably
still sue, given our litigious society and all.

L


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 13:17:51 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:17:51 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.081751.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yeah but the guy who said he couldn;t say it revealed his Britishness. No
US respondent has yet denied it.

dInIs (who has been in college for too long)

>On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>So what is right on. One year don't cut it for prepositions (ask folks who
>>have been learnin' English for years).
>
>But we were not asked if we had lived in England. We wre asked if we said
>"in  college" -- weren't we?
>
>???
>
>Bethany

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From courts at AIT.FREDONIA.EDU  Wed Nov 10 13:26:12 1999
From: courts at AIT.FREDONIA.EDU (Patrick Courts)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:26:12 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911091514560.15496-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.082612.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:15 PM 11/09/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Aaron E. Drews wrote:
>
>>Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
>>would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
>>physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
>>of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".
>
I was in college for four years and in graduate school for 5--always in
never at.


Pat

Please Note: I must use a voice software program that sometimes
mis-translates what I say, or mistakes my breathing for words and inserts
things like "of, in, the" etc. In the rush of doing e-mail I sometimes miss
these errors in my proof reading. My apologies.


Patrick L. Courts
Professor of English
State University of New York at Fredonia
Fredonia, NY 14063
e-mail:  courts at ait.fredonia.edu


http://www.fredonia.edu/department/english/courts/


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 10 13:25:51 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:25:51 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <199911101313.IAA80004@pilot009.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.082551.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>Yeah but the guy who said he couldn;t say it revealed his Britishness. No
>US respondent has yet denied it.

o.

Bethany


From dstein at MEDIAONE.NET  Wed Nov 10 13:49:16 1999
From: dstein at MEDIAONE.NET (David Stein)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:49:16 -0500
Subject: Research Hot Terms
In-Reply-To: <000601bf2a5a$2a982320$d31558c0@pavilion>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.084916.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm doing research on "hot" media words and phrases, and those that may be
hot in the near future.
For example, "ecommerce", "you go girl", "show me the money", etc.  This
also includes new terms in technology.
For example, "adsl" (the new telephone-based high-speed internet access
technology), "portal", etc.

Anyone know good references or newsletters or email lists for these types of
phrases?


From faber at LENNY.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 10 05:16:20 1999
From: faber at LENNY.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 00:16:20 -0500
Subject: IPA & PDF
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.001620.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's too much in the digest for me to scroll through specifically to Allan
Metcalf's comments about the problems getting the IPA font to show up in the
PDF format of the ADS digest (I feel like I'm channeling Hair! here!). I ran
into that problem preparing a grant proposal for NSF that had to be submitted
in PDF format, and we finally resolved it. Essentially, you have to make sure
you're using an IPA font that can be embedded in the PDF file. However, if the
IPA font resides on a particular computer, the PDF file will display properly,
even if the font isn't embedded in the PDF file. We discovered through trial
and error that the SIL fonts work fine, but that the IPAKiel font that has
been pretty much a lab standard doesn't work at all. I think the technical
limit is that it has to be a TrueType font (IPAKiel is PostScript).

Alice


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 10 14:53:28 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:53:28 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.095328.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Several days ago I asked if anyone knew of any excellent professional
glossaries. I have received no replies. So, I send a variant of the
question -- do you know of any reasonably good professional glossaries?

Thanks,
Bethany


From dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP  Wed Nov 10 15:26:22 1999
From: dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP (Daniel Long)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:26:22 +0900
Subject: Cheesy Christian Screwdivers (was Professional Glossaries)
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.002622.0900.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bethany,
I am afraid I didn't understand what you meant by "professional glossary".
Maybe others did, but perhaps it would increase responses if you gave a
little example.  Does this mean a glossary of terms that only
archaeologists (etc.) use?
One more suggestion:  If you want responses to an academic query, put
something like "Flat-headed" or "Baptists" or "Cheese curds" in the subject
line.

Danny

Bethany K. Dumas wrote:

> Several days ago I asked if anyone knew of any excellent professional
> glossaries. I have received no replies. So, I send a variant of the
> question -- do you know of any reasonably good professional glossaries?

-----
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-426-77-2184
Japanese Language and Literature Dept.    fax  +81-426-77-2140
Tokyo Metropolitan University
1-1 Minami Osawa, Hachioji-shi, Tokyo  192-0397 Japan
mailto:dlong at bcomp.metro-u.ac.jp
http://nihongo.human.metro-u.ac.jp/long/


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 10 16:08:29 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:08:29 EST
Subject: in/at college
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.110829.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/9/1999 4:33:32 PM, highbob at MINDSPRING.COM writes:

<< Maybe "in college" is a southern thing? >>

Nope--when I submitted myself to higher education (1958-1962) I was "in
college" but "at the University of Iowa"; when my parents spoke about this,
though, they said I was "away at college." After that, I was "in graduate
school" (same place, 1962-67). Now I teach "in a university" but I teach "at
Duke University."


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Wed Nov 10 16:35:18 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:35:18 -0600
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.103518.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For what subject?
----- Original Message -----
From: Bethany K. Dumas <dumasb at UTK.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 8:53 AM
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request


> Several days ago I asked if anyone knew of any excellent professional
> glossaries. I have received no replies. So, I send a variant of the
> question -- do you know of any reasonably good professional glossaries?
>
> Thanks,
> Bethany


From LROSENWALD at WELLESLEY.EDU  Wed Nov 10 16:30:07 1999
From: LROSENWALD at WELLESLEY.EDU (Larry Rosenwald)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:30:07 -0500
Subject: some queries
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.113007.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Hi - I'd like to beg for a little help.  I have students working on
1) Maine English, and in general the linguistic history of Maine, 2)
Appalachian English, 3) jargons in American English (she got interested in
that _Smithsonian_ account of the military use of Native American words as
a secret language in World War II).  I know a little about these things,
but I'm wondering whether subscribers to this list might have bibliographic
suggestions to make.  Off the top of your head only!  I don't want to ask
anyone to rummage through files or libraries, just, if possible, to take a
second and send me the obvious things that you know and I don't!
        Thanks in advance, Larry Rosenwald


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Wed Nov 10 16:40:28 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:40:28 -0600
Subject: in/at college
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.104028.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: <RonButters at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 10:08 AM
Subject: in/at college


> In a message dated 11/9/1999 4:33:32 PM, highbob at MINDSPRING.COM writes:
>
> << Maybe "in college" is a southern thing? >>
>
> Nope--when I submitted myself to higher education (1958-1962) I was "in
> college" but "at the University of Iowa"; when my parents spoke about
this,
> though, they said I was "away at college." After that, I was "in graduate
> school" (same place, 1962-67). Now I teach "in a university" but I teach
"at
> Duke University."

    Sounds quite reasonable to me, my parents used the same phraseology
    as yours when I was attending college and when I was a professor.
    Scott Catledge


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 10 16:48:48 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:48:48 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <003e01bf2b99$93bd2360$f47a1bcc@pafracat>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.114848.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Pafra & Scott Catledge wrote:

>For what subject?

ANY professional subject - medical, legal, physics, taxation, etc.

Bethany


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Wed Nov 10 16:58:27 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:58:27 -0500
Subject: coffee (was: Re: Christian suggestion)
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.115827.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mike Salovesh wonders:

>>>>>
I never figured out how coffee could smell so good and taste so bad.
<<<<<

It's because nobody (typically) bothers to clean the works properly, and often a
pot is left on the heat, cooking.

I'm generally a tea drinker, but since a co-worker gave me a taste of what he
brewed from ground coffee in his Bodum(TM) press, I've had one of my own. I keep
it clean, I brew mine fresh, and it tastes *good*!

Now, though, one of the local connoisseurs has been singing the praises of
keeping whole beans and grinding them fresh for each cup...


-- Mark


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 10 17:05:01 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:05:01 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <003e01bf2b99$93bd2360$f47a1bcc@pafracat>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.120501.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bethany,

I don't know if by "glossaries" you mean brief word-lists, as opposed to
full-length books, but in law the new edition of Black's Law Dictionary is
reasonably good (former editions were abominable).

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Wed Nov 10 17:03:44 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:03:44 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.120344.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Aaron E. Drews" <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK> writes

>>>>>
Even if one were a college student (as opposed to a university student), one
would say "I'm at college", meaning both that "I'm a student" and "I'm
physically at the further education institution as I speak".   I can't think
of an instance when anyone would say "in university" or "in college".

(BTW, "college", in general, in the UK roughly equates to the community
college in north America, with similar services and types of
qualifications).
<<<<<

This side the pond (USA), "she's in college" means "she's a college student".
That defines her current occupation, whether or not at the moment she's
physically there or classes are in session. She may be on summer vacation half a
world away, but if she's intending to continue her studies in fall, she's in
college. You might append a clarifying disclaimer: "Not right now, of course."

At least, that's how I think I use and understand it.

-- Mark


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 17:12:30 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:12:30 -0500
Subject: some queries
In-Reply-To: <01JI65PXL7148WXE8N@WELLESLEY.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.121230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Do you have the reference for the _Smithsonian_ article?  I'm curious.

On AppEng, see Wolfram and Christian, _Appalachian Speech_ (1976) and
anything by Michael Montgomery.

At 11:30 AM 11/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>         Hi - I'd like to beg for a little help.  I have students working on
>1) Maine English, and in general the linguistic history of Maine, 2)
>Appalachian English, 3) jargons in American English (she got interested in
>that _Smithsonian_ account of the military use of Native American words as
>a secret language in World War II).  I know a little about these things,
>but I'm wondering whether subscribers to this list might have bibliographic
>suggestions to make.  Off the top of your head only!  I don't want to ask
>anyone to rummage through files or libraries, just, if possible, to take a
>second and send me the obvious things that you know and I don't!
>         Thanks in advance, Larry Rosenwald


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 10 17:27:54 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:27:54 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911101202150.4639-100000@minerva.cis.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.122754.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>I don't know if by "glossaries" you mean brief word-lists, as opposed to
>full-length books, but in law the new edition of Black's Law Dictionary is
>reasonably good (former editions were abominable).

Thanks. I mean specialized lexicons (as opposed to general dictionaries),
rather than brief ones -- and I agree with you about Black's, which I put
at the top of my own list.

But now I am wondering -- is there unanimity among us re the meaning of
hthe term "glossary." (I raised this question once before; there were very
few responses.)

DSNA members, what say you?

Bethany


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 17:55:08 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:55:08 -0500
Subject: coffee
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.125508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark,

You don't keep whole beans in the freezer and grind them before each brewing?

Are you a member of ADS?

dInIs

>Mike Salovesh wonders:
>
>>>>>>
>I never figured out how coffee could smell so good and taste so bad.
><<<<<
>
>It's because nobody (typically) bothers to clean the works properly, and often
>a
>pot is left on the heat, cooking.
>
>I'm generally a tea drinker, but since a co-worker gave me a taste of what he
>brewed from ground coffee in his Bodum(TM) press, I've had one of my own. I
>keep
>it clean, I brew mine fresh, and it tastes *good*!
>
>Now, though, one of the local connoisseurs has been singing the praises of
>keeping whole beans and grinding them fresh for each cup...
>
>
>-- Mark

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Wed Nov 10 18:11:14 1999
From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (TERRY IRONS)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:11:14 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911101225120.3722-100000@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.131114.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bethany,


Two sitting on my desk come to mind:

Peter Matthews,  Concise Oxford Dictionary of Linguistics

Holman & Harmon,  A Handbook to Literature.

But are they "glossaries"?


Our library also has several dictionaries of philosophy.


Virtually, Terry
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Wed Nov 10 18:16:49 1999
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron Drews)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:16:49 +0000
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <199911101313.IAA80004@pilot009.cl.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.181649.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

}Yeah but the guy who said he couldn;t say it revealed his Britishness. No
}US respondent has yet denied it.

If that's me, I'm not quite sure how to take it.  As I said in an earlier
message, I'm from L.A...... I'm just trying to observe what is said in
Britain, since that was kinda, sorta part of an earlier query.

 =======================================================================
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                  Departments of English Language and
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron       Theoretical & Applied  Linguistics

"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 18:27:48 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:27:48 -0500
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.132748.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My apologies mate. Thought you were reporting your own usage, not them
around you. No offense I hope.

dInIs

>On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>}Yeah but the guy who said he couldn;t say it revealed his Britishness. No
>}US respondent has yet denied it.
>
>If that's me, I'm not quite sure how to take it.  As I said in an earlier
>message, I'm from L.A...... I'm just trying to observe what is said in
>Britain, since that was kinda, sorta part of an earlier query.
>
>========================================================================
>Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
>aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                  Departments of English Language and
>http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron       Theoretical & Applied  Linguistics
>
>"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
>        --Death

Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Nov 10 18:32:03 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:32:03 -0800
Subject: some queries
In-Reply-To: <01JI65PXL7148WXE8N@WELLESLEY.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.103203.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry,

There is a book about the code talkers.

 AUTHOR       Paul, Doris Atkinson
 TITLE        The Navajo code talkers [by] Doris A. Paul
 PUBL INFO    Philadelphia, Dorrance [1973]
 PHYS DESC    xii, 170 p. illus. 22 cm
 NOTE         Bibliography: p. 169-170
 SUBJECT      World War, 1939-1945 -- Cryptography
 SUBJECT      World War, 1939-1945 -- Participation, Indian
 SUBJECT      Navajo Indians
 LCCN         72091142 //r842
 ISBN         0805918701
 OCLC #       736883
 GRSN         00620562
 MISC         19861029062606.0
 MISC         731018s1973    paua     b    000 0 eng  nam01
 MISC         DLC DLC m.c. WAU
 MISC         n-ust-- p------

and a couple of videos, one of which was produced for the History Channel,
but I have no info on availability

   1  040     JBW c JBW
   2  007     v b f d c e m f a g h h o i u
   3  020     0767011791
   4  024 1   3396140428
   5  028 42  AAE-40428 b A&E Television Networks
   6  090     b
   7  049     WAUW
   8  245 00  Navajo code talkers h [videorecording] / c produced by
Triage, Inc. for the History Channel.
   9  260     [New York] : b A&E Television Networks, b Distributed in the
U.S. by New Video Group, c c1998.
  10  300     1 videocassette (ca. 43 min) : b sd., col. with b&w
sequences ; c 1/2 in.
  11  440  0  In search of history
  12  538     VHS format.
  13  508     Director of photography, Van Carlson; editor, Darryl Clift.
  14  520     Describes the role of a select group of Navajo Marines who
developed a code based on their own native language that provided a means
for
secure communications among American forces in the Pacific during World
War
II.
  15  650  0  World War, 1939-1945 x Cryptography.
  16  650  0  World War, 1939-1945 x Participation, Indian.
  17  650  0  Navajo language.
  18  650  0  Navajo Indians.
  19  610 10  United States. b Marine Corps x Indian troops.
  20  710 2   Triage, Inc.
  21  710 2   History Channel (Firm)
  22  710 2   Arts and Entertainment Network.


   1  040     IUA c IUA
   2  007     v b f d c e b f a g h h o
   3  020     0963969811
   4  090     D810.C88 b N38 1995
   5  090     b
   6  049     WAUW
   7  245 00  Navajo code talkers h [videorecording] : b the epic story /
c produced by Brendan W. Tully and Francine M. Rzeznik ; directed by Allan
Silliphant ; written by Brendan W. Tully.
   8  260     [North Hollywood, Calif.?] : b Tully Entertainment, c c1995.
   9  300     1 videocassette (55 min.) : b sd., col. with b&w sequences ;
c 1/2 in.
  10  538     VHS
  11  520     During World War II, the U.S. Marine Corps recruited Navajo
Indians for duty as communication specialists.  The Navajos developed a
special voice code based on the Navajo language to transmit battlefield
messages during the Pacific campaign. This code was never broken by the
Japanese.
  12  650  0  World War, 1939-1945 x Cryptography.
  13  650  0  Navajo Indians.
  14  650  0  Navajo language.
  15  651  0  World War, 1939-1945 x Participation, Indian.
  16  700 1   Tully, Brendan W.
  17  700 1   Rzeznik, Francine M.
  18  700 1   Silliphant, Allan.

Doris Paul's book was reissued in 1998. If you have OCLC WorldCat
available you might want to try a title keyword search on code AND
talkers, I found at least 11 other book titles that might be of interest.

Can't help much with Maine or Appalachia ...

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Larry Rosenwald wrote:

>         Hi - I'd like to beg for a little help.  I have students working on
> 1) Maine English, and in general the linguistic history of Maine, 2)
> Appalachian English, 3) jargons in American English (she got interested in
> that _Smithsonian_ account of the military use of Native American words as
> a secret language in World War II).  I know a little about these things,
> but I'm wondering whether subscribers to this list might have bibliographic
> suggestions to make.  Off the top of your head only!  I don't want to ask
> anyone to rummage through files or libraries, just, if possible, to take a
> second and send me the obvious things that you know and I don't!
>         Thanks in advance, Larry Rosenwald
>


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 18:52:11 1999
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:52:11 -0600
Subject: some queries
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.125211.0600.>

Larry Rosenwald wrote:
>
>         Hi - I'd like to beg for a little help.  I have students working on
> 1) Maine English, and in general the linguistic history of Maine, 2)
> Appalachian English, 3) jargons in American English (she got interested in
> that _Smithsonian_ account of the military use of Native American words as
> a secret language in World War II).  I know a little about these things,
> but I'm wondering whether subscribers to this list might have bibliographic
> suggestions to make.  Off the top of your head only!  I don't want to ask
> anyone to rummage through files or libraries, just, if possible, to take a
> second and send me the obvious things that you know and I don't!
>         Thanks in advance, Larry Rosenwald

Larry:

Okay, this is really off the top of my head.  I recently saw an
announcement of an Anchor Books 1999 reprint of David Maurer's *The Big
Con* (originally 1940, with a Paperback Books reprint about the same
time).  It's about confidence men and their argot, and reaches back to
around 1900 or so. It was one of the best-loved books of my ill-spent
teens, in part because I knew a couple of oldtime con men in Chicago
back in the 1940s. They were happy to talk about Maurer's book -- which
they knew well! -- because they knew most of his informants. They even
amplified on some of the incidents he reports.

Maurer's studies of underworld slang had an influence far beyond
academia.  Hollywood, in the 1930s, used to turn to him for authentic
gangster talk.  As I recall, terms like "gat" and "moll" and "yegg" got
to the soundtracks of the silver screen because Maurer passed them on.

I particularly recommend *The Big Con* because it was plagiarized into
the film "The Sting".  The first time I saw it, I recognized most of the
short cons in the early part of the film as coming straight from Maurer.
The elaborate setup of the Big Store (a fake betting parlor, complete
with fake gamblers and all) was pure Maurer. My first viewing was in
Mexico City while the film was in its first run back in the U.S.  The
Mexican theater ran it with an intermission.  Out in the lobby, I told
the people I was with to watch for the cackle bladder, and they were
impressed when it turned up in the blowoff. (Tell your student to read
The Big Con to translate the specialized terms in this paragraph.)

Maurer sued everybody involved with the film because it clearly was an
illicit use of his intellectual property. I don't know what happened to
the case -- it must have been filed pretty close to the year of his
death -- but it sure as hell should have been decided in his favor.

Thinking of *The Big Con* reminds me of Maurer's other books,
particularly *Languages of the Underworld", which I reviewed for
__American Anthropologist__.  (I accepted the invitation to review this
book as fast as I could, because of my background in linguistics and in
studying the underworld. Later, I discovered that Raven McDavid had
suggested me as the reviewer. He was perhaps the only one besides my
wife who knew of that part of my checkered career.  My wife worked for
Raven when he was completing the revision of Mencken's American
Language, and we spent a lot of time with him in those days.)

Yep, the more I think of it the more I think just about all of Maurer's
books could be just the kind of thing your student could follow up with
pleasure.  They're classic studies of U.S. jargons.

-- mike salovesh           <salovesh at niu.edu>       PEACE !!!

P.S.: There was a show on the Navajo talkers of World War II recently on
the History Channel. If your student is following up on that story, it
would be worth searching for.


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 10 20:17:08 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:17:08 EST
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.151708.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M.H. Abrams' "Glossary of Literary Terms," most recent edition 1992, is
lucid, informative, and almost a work of art in its own right. - Allan Metcalf


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 10 20:23:20 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:23:20 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <0.99db1cad.255b2cc4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.152320.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:

>M.H. Abrams' "Glossary of Literary Terms," most recent edition 1992, is
>lucid, informative, and almost a work of art in its own right. - Allan Metcalf

Thanks. Do you have pub info?

(So a glossary CAN be a work of art? So far my criteria for excellence
have been completeness, accuracy, and relevance.)

Bethany


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Wed Nov 10 18:41:34 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:41:34 -0500
Subject: Navajo code-talkers
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.134134.0500.>

Here's the info on the Navajo code talkers article in Smithsonian.  I
have it here, but had to look it up on Infotrac b/c I didn't have the
date on it:


                                   Jaysho, moasi, dibeh, ayeshi,
hasclishnih, beshlo, shush, gini.
                                   (World War II voice code) Bruce
Watson.
                                         Smithsonian August 1993 v24 n5
p34(9)

There was an article in the NYT about Navajo code talkers last month:

The New York Times, Oct 11, 1999 pA14(N) pA14(L) col 1 (30 col in)
                                           Code talkers' story pops up
everywhere; Navajo
                                           war effort no longer
unhearalded. (National Pages)
                                           Todd S. Purdum.

Also, from the number of book reviews that came up on my search, I guess
there's been a book or two on the topic recently...

Lynne

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Wed Nov 10 16:50:11 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:50:11 -0500
Subject: in/at college
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.115011.0500.>

> In a message dated 11/9/1999 4:33:32 PM, highbob at MINDSPRING.COM writes:
>
> << Maybe "in college" is a southern thing? >>

I think "in college" is a general American thing...


--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Nov 10 21:04:04 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:04:04 -0800
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.130404.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greetings, all,

Does anyone know of a study done showing whether or not uppercase letters are
more difficult to read than lowercase?

Thanks for any info,
Andrea


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Nov 10 21:09:44 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:09:44 -0500
Subject: Pokemon reference?
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.160944.0500.>

Who posted the Pokemon article link earlier today?  Was it
on this list?  Could anyone forward the original post to me,
please?  I'm afraid that I've already trashed my own copy--I
just want to discover the original context.

Many thanks.

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

              "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Nov 10 21:20:41 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:20:41 -0500
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.162041.0500.>

Ooh, good question, Andrea.  I just called one of my students on this this
morning.  She had e-mailed me a draft of a paper in all caps.  I told her that
it was hard to read . . . and it WAS.  This is a little disconcerting for me
since I tend to print in all caps, and I write in all caps on the board in
class.  But it's not the same thing (he squeaked in some lame form of
self-defense for a totally contradictory position).

I hope someone can provide info.

"A. Vine" wrote:

> Greetings, all,
>
> Does anyone know of a study done showing whether or not uppercase letters are
> more difficult to read than lowercase?

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                        "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From AGCOM.egregory at TAEXGW.TAMU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 21:59:06 1999
From: AGCOM.egregory at TAEXGW.TAMU.EDU (Elizabeth Gregory)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:59:06 -0600
Subject: Writing question -Reply
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.155906.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In terms of typography, Colin Wheildon has done several studies on the effect of all-capitals versus capitals-and-lower-case (among many other variables, like serif versus sans-serif type, reversed type on a dark background, etc.) on readability and comprehension.

He reports his findings in _Type and Layout_ (1996, Strathmoor Press).

I'm not aware of similar research done for other media, such as computer screens, etc., or for handwriting.

A quick synthesis of the theory of type, design, and readability I've read:

For passages of text (as opposed to headings or headlines), anything that makes letters look more different from each other aids readability, by allowing words to be read more quickly and easily.

In all-caps, all the letters are basically the same shape (a large square), so an important means of differentiation is lost. Each letter must be recognized individually, so reading becomes slower and more tedious.

Hope this helps.

Elizabeth Gregory
Assistant Professor and
Extension Communications Specialist
Texas Agricultural Extension Service
The Texas A&M University System


From pskuhlman at JUNO.COM  Wed Nov 10 22:05:24 1999
From: pskuhlman at JUNO.COM (Patricia S. Kuhlman)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:05:24 -0500
Subject: born-again (was Christian suggestion)
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.170524.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     True story.  A friend of mine who was a social worker in Texas
overheard this interchange between a Texan client and a newly arrived
social worker from New York.  The client says:  "Are you lost or are you
found?"  The truly puzzled newcomer to the land of born-again Christians
replied without missing a beat:  "I'm from New York."
     I'm from New York via northern Illinois, so I have no idea whether
lost and found are common terms for unsaved and saved, but I think it's a
great story.  It sounds apocryphal, but my friend swears on the Bible
that it's true.

Patricia Kuhlman
Brooklyn, NY
pskuhlman at juno.com


From pskuhlman at JUNO.COM  Wed Nov 10 22:13:17 1999
From: pskuhlman at JUNO.COM (Patricia S. Kuhlman)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:13:17 -0500
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.171317.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999 13:04:04 -0800 "A. Vine" <avine at ENG.SUN.COM> writes:
>Greetings, all,
>
>Does anyone know of a study done showing whether or not uppercase
>letters are
>more difficult to read than lowercase?
>
>Thanks for any info,
>Andrea

I taught second grade for a year.  The standard wisdom is that kids have
a hard time reading sentences that are written totally in upper case
letters.  So, perhaps primary education specialists have done some
research on this.  Whether this difficulty carries over to adulthood, I
don't know, but I'm sure advertising companies do!

Patricia Kuhlman
Brooklyn, NY
pskuhlman at juno.com


From sarahworthington at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 10 22:46:43 1999
From: sarahworthington at HOTMAIL.COM (Sarah Worthington)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:46:43 PST
Subject: dialect samples on cassette
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.144643.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anybody know of an audio tape series which gives examples of different
dialects of English? What I have found is intended for actors to develop THE
southern accent, THE New York accent, etc, rather than real samples from
real speakers. We would like to expose our students to dialects they might
otherwise never hear authentically used, such as Appalachian speech or
different Southern dialects. I doubt anything is available in one handy
dandy series, but if it's out there I'd love to know about it.

Thanks for your suggestions,

Sarah Worthington
Arizona State University

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Wed Nov 10 22:47:10 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:47:10 -0600
Subject: caps vs. c & lower case
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.164710.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry don't know of study but it's interesting that most
lettering/calligraphy books and the graphic Art instructors I have had all
said that it is true.  Where this info originated I do not know.
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 3:04 PM
Subject: Writing question


> Greetings, all,
>
> Does anyone know of a study done showing whether or not uppercase letters
are
> more difficult to read than lowercase?
>
> Thanks for any info,
> Andrea


From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Wed Nov 10 22:43:47 1999
From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (TERRY IRONS)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:43:47 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries (first of two)
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.174347.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A search of our system turned up the following glossaries.


Virtually, Terry
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:43:20 -0500
From: voyager at eastlib.uky.edu
To: t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Subject: Opac Title Search for Glossary

Other Author(s):    Young, Heartsill, 1917-
                    Belanger, Terry.

Title:              The ALA glossary of library and information science /
                      Heartsill Young, editor, with the assistance of Terry
                      Belanger ... [et al.].

Subject(s):         Library science--Dictionaries.
                    Information science--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Chicago : American Library Association, 1983.

Description:        xvi, 245 p. ; 27 cm.

Notes:              x  519057  831114  Pub.  52.63

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        020.3 A11

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    American Psychiatric Association.
                    American Psychiatric Association. Joint Commission on
                      Public Affairs.

Title:              [Psychiatric glossary.
                    The American Psychiatric Association's Psychiatric
                      glossary / edited by a subcommittee of the Joint
                      Commission on Public Affairs.

Subject(s):         Psychiatry--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Washington, D.C. : Distributed by the American Psychiatric
                      Press, c1984.

Description:        Trade ed.
                    ix, 142 p. ; 21 cm.

Notes:              Previous ed. published as: A psychiatric glossary. 1980.
                    Bibliography: p. 138.
                    #  c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        616.89 A512P 1984

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Stone, Evelyn M.
Other Author(s):    American Psychiatric Association.

Title:              American psychiatric glossary.

Publisher:          Washington, DC : American Psychiatric Press, c1988.

Description:        6th ed. / compiled and edited by Evelyn M. Stone ;
                      editorial advisory board, Shervert H. Frazier ... [et
                      al.].
                    217 p. ; 18 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 175.
                    Over 1200 terms with brief definitions referring to
                      psychiatric disorders, persons, organizations, eponyms,
                      and concepts.  Incorporates revised nomenclature of
                      DIAGNOSTIC AND STATISTICAL MANUAL (DSM-III-R).  Contains
                      references, a list of abbreviations, and miscellaneous
                      tables.  Many cross references.
                    bj  c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        616.89 A512PA 1988

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Pettijohn, F. J. (Francis John), 1904-
Other Author(s):    Potter, Paul Edwin.

Title:              Atlas and glossary of primary sedimentary structures, by
                      F. J. Pettijohn and Paul Edwin Potter. Translations into
                      Spanish, French, and German by Juan Carlos Riggi,
                      Marie-H?l?ne Sachet, and Hans-Ulrich Schmincke.

Subject(s):         Sedimentary structures.

Publisher:          Berlin, New York, Springer-Verlag, 1964.

Description:        xv, 370 p. illus. 28 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 365-370.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        552.5 P551A

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Whitehead, Harry.

Title:              An A-Z of offshore oil & gas ; an illustrated
                      international glossary and reference guide to the
                      offshore oil & gas industries and their technology /
                      [by] Harry Whitehead ; [maps and diagrams Pamela
                      Poulter].

Subject(s):         Petroleum in submerged lands--Dictionaries.
                    Natural gas in submerged lands--Dictionaries.
                    Petroleum industry and trade--Directories.
                    Offshore gas industry--Directories.

Publisher:          London : Kogan Page, 1976.

Description:        339 p. : ill., maps, plan ; 29 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 336.
                    dn  c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        622.338 W592A

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Schmalz, Larry C.
Other Author(s):    Bailey, Thomas R.
                    Sippl, Charles J.

Title:              Beginning computer glossary for businessmen, by Larry C.
                      Schmalz, Thomas R. Bailey [and] Charles J. Sippl.

Subject(s):         Business--Data processing--Dictionaries.
                    Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York, Funk & Wagnalls [1973, c1972]

Description:        vi, 246 p. illus. 24 cm.

Series:             Funk & Wagnalls library of computer science

Notes:              bl  c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        001.6402 S247B

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        National Research Council (U.S.). Committee on Animal
                      Nutrition.
Other Author(s):    Harris, Lorin E., 1915-

Title:              Biological energy interrelationships and glossary of
                      energy terms; a report. Prepared by Lorin E. Harris.

Subject(s):         Nutrition--Terminology.
                    Energy metabolism--Terminology.

Publisher:          Washington, National Academy of Sciences-National Research
                      Council, 1966.

Description:        1st rev. ed.
                    35 p. illus. 24 cm.

Series:             National Research Council (U.S.) Publication 1411

Notes:              At head of title: Nutrient requirements of domestic
                      animals.
                    "For use as a reference in connection with the series of
                      published reports on Nutrient requirements of domestic
                      animals."
                    First published in 1962 under title: Glossary of energy
                      terms.
                    Bibliography: p. 19-22.
                    458532 770916 Midwest 5.84

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        636.085 N277B 1966

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Joint Electron Device Engineering Council. Electron Tube
                      Council.

Title:              Cathode ray tubes : glossary of terms and definitions /
                      JEDEC Electron Tube Council.

Subject(s):         Cathode ray tubes--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Washington : Electronic Industries Association, 1975.

Description:         12 p. ; 28 cm.

Series:             JEDEC Publiction ; no. 92.

Notes:              Cover title.
                    466036  780427  Pub. 2.40

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        621.381542 J74C

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Potts, Jackie.
                    Office Automation Society International.

Title:              Comprehensive glossary of office automation / compiled and
                      edited by Jackie Potts.

Subject(s):         Office practice--Automation--Dictionaries.
                    Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Dumfries, Va. : Office Automation Society International,
                      c1986.

Description:        1st ed.
                     vii, 526 p. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              #  c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        651.84 C737

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Freedman, Alan, 1942-

Title:              The computer glossary : the complete illustrated desk
                      reference / Alan Freedman.

Subject(s):         Computers--Dictionaries.
                    Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York, NY : AMACOM, c1991.

Description:        5th ed.
                    xxiii, 670 p. ; ill. : 26 cm.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        004.03 F853C 1991

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Stein, J. Stewart.

Title:              Construction glossary : an encyclopedic reference and
                      manual / J. Stewart Stein.

Subject(s):         Building--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York : Wiley, c1980.

Description:        xvii, 1013 p. ; 26 cm.

Series:             Wiley series of practical construction guides

Notes:              "A Wiley-Interscience publication."
                    Includes index.
                    502768  820104  Midwest  65.93

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        690.03 S819C

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Wolfe, Gary K., 1946-

Title:              Critical terms for science fiction and fantasy : a
                      glossary and guide to scholarship / Gary K. Wolfe.

Subject(s):         Fantastic fiction--Dictionaries.
                    Science fiction--Dictionaries.
                    Criticism--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York : Greenwood Press, c1986.

Description:        xxvi, 162 p. ; 25 cm.

Notes:              Includes index.
                    Bibliography: p. [145]-155.
                    MH  c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        809.3876 W855C

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Boucher, Carl O.

Title:              Current clinical dental terminology; a glossary of
                      accepted terms in all disciplines of dentistry. Compiled
                      and edited by Carl O. Boucher.

Subject(s):         Dentistry--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Saint Louis, C. V. Mosby Co., 1974.

Description:        2d ed.
                    xx, 442 p. 26 cm.

Notes:              Third ed. published as: Boucher's clinical dental
                      terminology. 1982.
                    Bibliography: p. xiii-xvii.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        617.6003 B753C 1974

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Mandl, Matthew.

Title:              Directory of electronic circuits, with a glossary of terms
                      / Matthew Mandl.

Subject(s):         Electronic circuits.

Publisher:          Englewood Cliffs, N.J. : Prentice-Hall, c1978.

Description:        Rev. and enl.
                    xiv, 321 p. : diagrs. ; 24 cm.

Notes:              Includes index.
                    480984  790808  Midwest  15.88

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        621.38153 M272D 1978

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        United States. Defense Intelligence Agency.

Title:              A DOD glossary of mapping, charting and geodetic terms.

Subject(s):         Maps--Terminology.

Publisher:          [Washington] 1967.

Description:        1st ed.
                    v, 243 p. 26 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 241-243.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        526.014 U58D

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Institute of Ecology.

Title:              An ecological glossary for engineers & resource managers /
                      TIE.

Subject(s):         Ecology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Logan, Utah : The Institute, [1974]

Description:        50 p. ; 22 cm.

Notes:              Cover title.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        574.503 I59A

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Brackley, Peter, 1923-

Title:              Energy and environmental terms : a glossary / compiled by
                      Peter Brackley.

Subject(s):         Power resources--Dictionaries.
                    Environmental protection--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Aldershot, Hants, England ; Brookfield, Vt., USA : Gower,
                       c1988.

Description:        ix, 189 p. : ill. ; 23 cm.

Series:
                    Energy papers ; no. 24

Notes:              Series statement from jkt.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        333.790321 B797E

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Curl, James Stevens, 1937-

Title:              English architecture : an illustrated glossary / James
                      Stevens Curl ; with a foreword by Lord Muirshiel ; and
                      drawings by John J. Sambrook.

Subject(s):         Architecture--England--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Newton Abbot ; North Pomfret, Vt. : David & Charles,
                      c1977.

Description:        192 p. : ill. ; 26 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 189-191.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        720.3 C975E

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Keen, Peter G. W.

Title:              Every manager's guide to information technology : a
                      glossary of key terms and concepts for today's business
                      leaders / Peter G.W. Keen.

Subject(s):         Information technology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Boston, Mass. : Harvard Business School Press, c1991.

Description:        viii, 170 p. ;  23 cm.

Notes:              Includes index.

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        004.024658 K26E

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Defense Systems Management College. Acquisition Policy
                      Dept.

Title:              Glossary : defense acquisition acronyms and terms.
Variant Title:      Defense acquisition acronyms and terms

Subject(s):         United States. Dept. of Defense--Procurement--Terminology.
                    Weapons systems--United States--Purchasing--Terminology.
                    Weapons systems--United States--Purchasing--Acronyms.

Publisher:          Fort Belvoir, Va. : Dept. of Defense, Defense Systems
                      Management College, Acquisition Policy Dept., 1998.

Description:        9th ed.
                    22, 136 p. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              Shipping list no.: 99-0069-P.
                    "November 1998."

Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
Call Number:        D 1.2:G 51/2/998

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Soule, James.
Other Author(s):    American Society for Horticultural Science.

Title:              Glossary for horticultural crops / James Soule ; sponsored
                      by the American Society for Horticultural Science.

Subject(s):         Horticulture--Terminology.

Publisher:          New York : Wiley, c1985.

Description:        xxvi, 898 p. : ill. ; 27 cm.

Notes:              Includes indexes.
                    Bibliography: p. 679-692.
                    #  c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        635.014 S722G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Walker, John Albert, 1938-

Title:              Glossary of art, architecture, and design since 1945 :
                      terms and labels describing movements styles and groups
                      derived from the vocabulary of artists and critics /
                      John A Walker.

Subject(s):         Art--Terminology.

Publisher:          London : Bingley ; Hamden, Ct. : Linnet Books, 1977.

Description:        2d rev. ed.
                    352 p. ; 23 cm.

Notes:              Includes bibliographical references and index.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        709.04 W181G 1977

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        American Society for Testing and Materials.
Other Author(s):    American Society for Testing and Materials. Committee E-8
                      on Nomenclature and Definitions.

Title:              Glossary of ASTM definitions, sponsored by ASTM Committee
                      E-8 on Nomenclature and Definitions.

Publisher:          Philadelphia, 1973.

Description:        Second edition.
                    540 p. illus.

Notes:              "This second edition of the Glossary of ASTM Definitions
                      is a compilation of all terms listed under the heading
                      "Definitions" in the 1972 edition of the Annual Book of
                      ASTM Standards."--Foreword.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        603 A512G 1973

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Hopkins, Jeanne.

Title:              [Astrophysical journal.
                    Glossary of astronomy and astrophysics / Jeanne Hopkins ;
                      foreword by S. Chandrasekhar.

Subject(s):         Astronomy--Dictionaries.
                    Astrophysics--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1980.

Description:        2nd ed., rev. and enl.
                    ix, 196 p. ; 24 cm.

Notes:              "Published under the auspices of the Astrophysical
                      journal"--verso t.p.
                    497812  810601  Midwest  16.61

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        520.321 H794G 1980

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Glick, David M., 1936-

Title:              Glossary of biochemistry and molecular biology / David M.
                      Glick.

Subject(s):         Biochemistry--Terminology.
                    Molecular biology--Terminology.

Publisher:          London ; Miami : Portland Press, 1997.

Description:        Rev. ed.
                    214 p. ; 20 cm.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        572.03 G559 1997

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Jackson, Benjamin Daydon, 1846-1927.

Title:              A glossary of botanic terms with their derivation and
                      accent. By Benjamin Daydon Jackson ...

Subject(s):         Botany--Terminology.

Publisher:          London, Duckworth; Philadelphia, J. B. Lippincott Company
                      [1928]

Description:        4th ed., rev., and enl.
                    x, [2], 481 p. 22 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 478-481.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        580.3 J12G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Hampel, Clifford A.
Other Author(s):    Hawley, Gessner Goodrich, 1905-

Title:              Glossary of chemical terms / Clifford A. Hampel and
                      Gessner G. Hawley.

Subject(s):         Chemistry--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York : Van Nostrand Reinhold, c1982.

Description:        2nd ed.
                    ix, 306 p. ; 23 cm.

Notes:              /517830  830912  Midwest  18.98

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        540.321 H229G 1982

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Isham, Norman Morrison, 1864-1943.
Other Author(s):    Mercer, Henry Chapman, 1856-1930.

Title:              A glossary of colonial architectural terms, by Norman
                      Morrison Isham. With a bibliography of books, 1880-1930.
                      The dating of old houses, by Henry C. Mercer.

Subject(s):         Architecture, Colonial--Dictionaries.
                    Art, Colonial--Bibliography.
                    Historic buildings--Pennsylvania.

Publisher:          [Watkins Glen, N.Y.] American Life  Foundation, 1968.

Description:        [64] p. illus. 23 cm.

Series:             Classic guidebooks to the visual arts

Notes:              Bibliography: p. [59]-[64]
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        720.3 I79G

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    United States. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Title:              Glossary of compensation terms.

Subject(s):         United States. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Publisher:          Washington, DC (2 Massachusetts Ave., NE, Washington
                      20212-0001) : U.S. Dept. of Labor, Bureau of Labor
                      Statistics, [1998]

Description:        74 p. ; 28 cm.

Series:             Report ; 923

Notes:              Shipping list no.: 98-0377-P.
                    "August 1998."

Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
Call Number:        L 2.71:923

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Mercer, John, 1918-
                    Lyons, Timothy J. (Timothy James).

Title:              Glossary of film terms / compiled by John Mercer ; James
                      R. Crocker, compilation assistant ; review panel: Loren
                      Cocking, Lee McConkey, Ken  Miura ; editor: Timothy J.
                      Lyons ; editorial vice-president: Robert W. Wagner.

Subject(s):         Motion pictures--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Philadelphia : University Film Association, 1978.

Description:        91 p. ; 26 cm.

Series:             University Film Association. Monograph, no. 2
                    UFA monograph series

Notes:              c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        791.43 G563

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        American Fisheries Society. Fish Health Section.
Other Author(s):    Post, George.
                    Klontz, William G.

Title:              Glossary of fish health terms / editors, George Post and
                      William G. Klontz.

Subject(s):         Fishes--Diseases--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          [Bethesda, Md.] : American Fisheries Society, Fish Health
                      Section, 1977.

Description:        48 p. ; 28 cm.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        597.003 A512

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Rieger, Rigomar.
Other Author(s):    Michaelis, Arnd.
                    Green, Melvin M.
                    Rieger, Rigomar.

Title:              A glossary of genetics and cytogenetics, classical and
                      molecular.

Subject(s):         Genetics--Dictionaries.
                    Cytogenetics--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Berlin, New York, [etc.] Springer-Verlag, 1968.

Description:        3rd ed. completely revised by Rigomar Rieger, Arnd
                      Michaelis [and] Melvin M. Green.
                    506 p. illus. 22 cm.

Notes:              "The first and second editions of this book were published
                      in German ... under the title: Genetisches und
                      cytogenetisches W?rterbuch."
                    Bibliography: p. 462-[506]

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        575.103 R554G 1968

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Biass-Ducroux, Fran?oise.
Other Author(s):    Napp-Zinn, Klaus, 1927-

Title:              Glossary of genetics in English, French, Spanish, Italian,
                      German, Russian. Compiled and arranged by Fran?oise
                      Biass-Ducroux in collaboration with Klaus Napp-Zinn.
                      Russian translation by Nikolaj V. Luchnik.

Subject(s):         Genetics--Dictionaries--Polyglot.
                    Dictionaries, Polyglot.

Publisher:          Amsterdam, New York, Elsevier Pub. Co., 1970.

Description:        x, 436 p. 20 cm.

Series:             Glossaria interpretum ; 16

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        575.103 B579G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Bates, Robert Latimer, 1912-
Other Author(s):    Jackson, Julia A., 1939-

Title:              Glossary of geology / Robert L. Bates and Julia A.
                      Jackson, editors.

Subject(s):         Geology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Alexandria, Va. : American Geological Institute, 1987.

Description:        3rd ed.
                    x, 788 p. ; 26 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p.
                    bj  c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        550.3 B329G 1987

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Pinney, Edward Lowell, 1925-
Other Author(s):    Slipp, Samuel.

Title:              Glossary of group and family therapy / Edward L. Pinney,
                      Jr. and Samuel Slipp.

Subject(s):         Group psychotherapy--Terminology.
                    Family psychotherapy--Terminology.

Publisher:          New York : Brunner/Mazel, c1982.

Description:        xvii, 149 p. ; 21 cm.

Notes:              510434  820928  Midwest  14.26

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        616.8915 P656G

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    United States. Dept. of Health and Human Services.

Title:              Glossary of HIV/AIDS-related terms.
Variant Title:      Glossary of HIV/AIDS related terms.

Subject(s):         AIDS (Disease)--United States.
                    HIV infections--United States.

Publisher:          [Rockville, Md.? : Dept. of Health & Human Services,
                      [1995]

Description:        111 p. ; 22 cm.

Notes:              Shipping list no.: 96-0075-P.
                    "June 1995."

Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
Call Number:        HE 1.2:G 51

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Pei, Mario, 1901-

Title:              Glossary of linguistic terminology [by] Mario Pei.

Subject(s):         Linguistics--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York, Columbia University Press, 1966.

Description:        xvi, 299 p. 21 cm.

Notes:              c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        410.3 P377G

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Huschke, R. E. (Ralph E.), 1925-
                    American Meteorological Society.

Title:              Glossary of meteorology. Edited by Ralph E. Huschke.

Subject(s):         Meteorology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Boston, American Meteorological Society, 1959.

Description:        viii, 638 p. 24 cm.

Notes:              "Sponsored by U.S. Department of Commerce, Weather Bureau
                      [and others]"
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        551.503 G563

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Joint Electron Device Engineering Council. Solid State
                      Products Council.

Title:              Glossary of microelectronic terms, definitions, and
                      symbols / formulated by JEDEC Solid State Product
                      Council.

Subject(s):         Microelectronics--Terminology.
                    Microelectronics--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Washington : Electronic Industries Association,
                      Engineering Department, 1977.

Description:        [Rev. ed.]
                    61 p. (in various pagings) : ill. ; 28 cm.

Series:             Publication - JEDEC ; no. 99

Notes:              Includes index.
                    466032  780427  Pub. 5.40

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        621.3817 J74G 1977

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Amstutz, G. C. (Gerhardt Christian), 1922-
Other Author(s):    Aguilar, O.

Title:              Glossary of mining geology. In English, Spanish, French
                      and German. By G. C. Amstutz. In cooperation with O.
                      Aguilar, A. Bernard, F. El Baz, a.o.

Subject(s):         Geology, Economic--Dictionaries--Polyglot.
                    Mining engineering--Dictionaries--Polyglot.
                    Dictionaries, Polyglot.

Publisher:          Stuttgart, Enke Verlag, 1971.

Description:        xi, 197 p. with illus. 22 cm.

Notes:              Imprint covered by label: Elsevier Pub. Co., Amsterdam.
                    Bibliography: p. 161.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        553.03 A528G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Evans, Anthony.

Title:              Glossary of molecular biology / A. Evans.

Subject(s):         Molecular biology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York : Wiley, [1975] c1974.

Description:        55 p. ; 23 cm.

Notes:              "A Halsted Press book."
                    Bibliography: p. 51-55.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        574.8803 E92G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Cranston, Maurice William, 1920-
Other Author(s):    Lakoff, Sanford A.

Title:              [Glossary of political terms
                    A glossary of political ideas, edited by Maurice Cranston
                      and Sanford A. Lakoff.

Subject(s):         Political science--Terminology.

Publisher:          New York, Basic Books [1969]

Description:        xii, 180 p. 22 cm.

Series:             Culture & discovery

Notes:              1966 ed. has title: A glossary of political terms.
                    Includes bibliographies.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        320.03 C891G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Sessoms, H. Douglas (Hanson Douglas)
Other Author(s):    National Recreation and Park Association.

Title:              Glossary of recreation and park terms.

Subject(s):         Recreation--Terminology.
                    Parks--Terminology.

Publisher:          Arlington, Va., National Recreation and Park Association,
                      1972.

Description:        43 p. 23 cm.

Series:             Management aids ; bull. no. 95

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        790.02 N277M

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Cloud, Sherrill.
Other Author(s):    National Center for Higher Education Management Systems.

Title:              A glossary of standard terminology for postsecondary
                      education 1978-79 / compiled by Sherrill Cloud.

Subject(s):         Education, Higher--United States--Dictionaries.
                    Universities and colleges--Terminology.

Publisher:          Boulder, Colo. : National Center for Higher Education
                      Management Systems, [1979?]

Description:        x, 109 p. ; 23 cm.

Notes:              483157  791031  Baker & Taylor  5.00

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        378 C647G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        National Fluid Power Association.

Title:              Glossary of terms for fluid power.

Subject(s):         Fluid mechanics--Dictionaries.
                    Hydraulic engineering--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Thiensville, Wis., 1965.

Description:        4th interim ed.
                    30 p. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        532 N277A

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        National Research Council (U.S.). Conference on Glossary
                      of Terms in Nuclear Science and Technology.

Title:              A glossary of terms in nuclear science and technology.

Subject(s):         Nuclear energy--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York, American Society of Mechanical Engineers [1957]

Description:        a-e, 188 p. diagrs. 22 cm.

Series:             ASME standard ; 110

Notes:              c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
                    c.1 Temporarily Shelved at REFERENCE COLLECTION
                      (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        539.76 N2778G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Gough, Henry, 1821-1906.

Title:              A glossary of terms used in heraldry [by] Henry Gough &
                      James Parker.

Subject(s):         Heraldry--Great Britain.
                    Heraldry--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          [Detroit] Gale Research Co., 1966.

Description:        New ed. Oxford, J. Parker, 1894.
                    xxviii, 659 p. illus., coats of arms. 23 cm.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        929.6 G692G 1966

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Stone, George Cameron.

Title:              A glossary of the construction, decoration and use of arms
                      and armor in all countries and in all times, together
                      with some closely related subjects.

Subject(s):         Weapons--Dictionaries.
                    Armor--Dictionaries

Publisher:          New York, Jack Brussel, Pub. [c1961]

Description:        694 p. illus. 30 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 687-694.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        739.7 S877G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Conseil international de la langue fran?aise.
Other Author(s):    Brace, Paul.

Title:              Glossary of the environment ; with French and German
                      equivalents / Conseil international de la langue
                      fran?aise ; adapted by Paul Brace ; foreword by Ren?
                      Dubos.

Subject(s):         Human ecology--Dictionaries.
                    Environmental protection--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York : Praeger, 1977.

Description:        xi, 117 p. ; 24 cm.

Series:             Praeger special studies in international economics and
                      development

Notes:              Includes index.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        301.3103 C755G

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Williams, G. L.
Other Author(s):    Sarjeant, William Antony S.
                    Kidson, Evan J. (Evan Joseph), 1930-
                    American Association of Stratigraphic Palynologists.

Title:              A glossary of the terminology applied to dinoflagellate
                      amphiesmae and cysts and acritarchs / by Graham L.
                      Williams, William A. S. Sarjeant, Evan J. Kidson.

Subject(s):         Dinoflagellates, Fossil--Terminology.
                    Acritarchs--Terminology.

Publisher:          [s.l.] : American Association of Stratigraphic
                      Palynologists, 1978.

Description:        1978 ed.
                    121 p., [1] leaf of plates : ill. ; 28 cm.

Series:             Contributions series - American Association of
                      Stratigraphic Palynologists ; no. 2A

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 84-90.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        561.13 W723G 1978

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Geer, Ira W.

Title:              Glossary of weather and climate : with related oceanic and
                      hydrologic terms / edited by Ira W. Geer.

Subject(s):         Meteorology--Dictionaries.
                    Climatology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Boston, Mass. : American Meteorological Society, 1996.

Description:        vi, 272 p. ; 24 cm.

Notes:              Includes bibliographical references (p. 271-271).

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        551.503 G5634

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Etter, Lewis E.

Title:              Glossary of words and phrases used in radiology, nuclear
                      medicine, and ultrasound. Prepared from various sources
                      for medical secretaries, X-ray technicians, medical
                      students, and residents in radiology by Lewis E. Etter.
                      With a section on suggested terminology for
                      roentgenological reports, devised by Doctors Fisher,
                      Bovard, and Bacon for the Pennsylvania Radiological
                      Society. Foreword (1st ed.) by Olive G. Johnson.
                      Foreword (2d ed.) by Patricia Warchock.

Subject(s):         Radiology, Medical--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Springfield, Ill., C.C. Thomas [1970]

Description:        2d ed.
                    xxv, 355 p. 26 cm.

Notes:              "New revised edition."
                    First ed. published in 1960 under title: Glossary of words
                      and phrases used in radiology and nuclear medicine.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        616.07 E85G 1970

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Hurov, L.

Title:              Handbook of veterinary surgical instruments and glossary
                      of surgical terms / L. Hurov, with the assistance of K.
                      Knauer, R. Playter, R. Sexton.

Subject(s):         Veterinary surgery--Instruments.
                    Veterinary surgery--Terminology.

Publisher:          Philadelphia : Saunders, 1978.

Description:        x, 214 p. : ill. ; 27 cm.

Notes:              Includes indexes.
                    471024 781031 Midwest 18.09

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        636.089 H966H

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Prytherch, R. J. (Raymond John)

Title:              Harrod's librarians' glossary of terms used in
                      librarianship, documentation and the book crafts and
                      reference book / compiled by Ray Prytherch.

Subject(s):         Library science--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Aldershot : Gower, 1987.

Description:        6th ed.
                    x, 855 p. ; 22 cm.

Notes:              /

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        010.3 H323L 1987

 ===============================================================================



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Camden-Carroll Library
Morehead State University
(606)783-2200


From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Wed Nov 10 22:44:23 1999
From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (TERRY IRONS)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:44:23 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries (second of two)
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.174423.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More glossaries.


Virtually, Terry
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:45:33 -0500
From: voyager at eastlib.uky.edu
To: t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Subject: Opac Title Search for Glossary

Other Author(s):    United States. Dept. of Housing and Urban Development.

Title:              Homeowner's glossary of building terms / U.S. Department
                      of Housing and Urban Development.

Subject(s):         House construction--Terminology.

Publisher:          Washington, D.C. (451 Seventh Street, S.W. Washington
                      20410) : The Department, [1994]

Description:        [15] p. ; 24 cm.

Notes:              Shipping list no.: 94-0276-P.
                    "July 1994"--P. [15].
                    "HUD-369-H(11)"--P. [15].
                    "Previous edition current"--P. [15].

Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
Call Number:        HH 1.2: B 86/2/994

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Arnold, Darrel D.
Other Author(s):    Childress, Stephen P.
                    University of Louisville. Institute of Community
                      Development.
                    University of Louisville. Urban Studies Center.

Title:              Housing : a glossary of terms / prepared by Darrel D.
                      Arnold, Stephen P. Childress.

Subject(s):         Housing--United States--Terminology.

Publisher:          Louisville, Ky. : University of Louisville, Urban Studies
                      Center, 1974.

Description:         ii, 86, [12] p. : ill. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              Title page information taken from cover.
                    An independent study prepared by the authors for credit in
                      the Institute of Community Development at the University
                      of Louisville.
                    "State Data Center of Kentucky" stamped on cover.
                    /  518342  831004  gift

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        363.5 A753H

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Harris, John, 1931-
Other Author(s):    Lever, Jill.

Title:              Illustrated glossary of architecture, 850-1830 [by] John
                      Harris & Jill Lever.

Subject(s):         Architecture--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          New York, Potter 1966.

Description:        xi, 79 p. 224 plates, plan, diagrs. 26 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 77-78.
                    c.1 ; c.2

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        720.3 H314I

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Shell International Petroleum Company, ltd.

Title:              Internal combustion engine; a glossary of technical terms
                      in English/American, French, Dutch, German, Spanish,
                      Italian, Portuguese, Russian.

Subject(s):         Internal combustion engines--Dictionaries--Polyglot.
                    Dictionaries, Polyglot.

Publisher:          Amsterdam, New York, Elsevier Pub. Co., 1961.

Description:        278 p. 19 cm.

Series:             Glossaria interpretum, 7

Notes:              "The text was prepared by the Shell International
                      Petroleum Company, ltd., London."

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        621.4303 I61

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Stachowitsch, Michael.
Other Author(s):    Proidl, Sylvie.

Title:              The invertebrates : an illustrated glossary / Michael
                      Stachowitsch ; Sylvie Proidl, illustrations.

Subject(s):         Invertebrates--Terminology.
                    Invertebrates--Pictorial works.
                    Invertebrates--Classification.

Publisher:          New York : Wiley-Liss, 1991.

Description:        xiii, 676 p. : ill. ; 26 cm.

Notes:              Includes index.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        592 S775I

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Kent, Ruth Kimball.

Title:              The language of journalism; a glossary of
                      print-communications terms.

Subject(s):         Journalism--Dictionaries.
                    Printing--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Kent, Ohio] Kent State University Press [1971, c1970]

Description:        [1st ed.
                    xvi, 186 p. illus. 24 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. [177]-186.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        070.03 K37L

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Bradford, Gershom, 1879-

Title:              [Glossary of sea terms
                    The mariner's dictionary.

Subject(s):         Naval art and science--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Barre, Mass., Barre Publishers, 1972.

Description:        xix, 307 p. illus. 20 cm.

Notes:              Previous editions published in 1927, 1942, and 1954 under
                      title: A glossary of sea terms.
                    396601 730711 Dolphin Bk. Club 10.55;

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        623.803 B799M

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Great Britain. Meteorological Office.
Other Author(s):    McIntosh, D. H. (Douglas Haig)

Title:              Meteorological glossary compiled by D.H. McIntosh.

Subject(s):         Meteorology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          London, H.M. Stationery Off., 1963.

Description:        [4th ed.].
                    287 p. illus. 25 cm.

Series:             Its [Publication, official] M.O. 729

Notes:              Gt. Brit. Air Ministry. Air publication] A.P. 827.
                    Bibliographical footnotes.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        551.503 G786M 1963

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Rock, N. M. S.

Title:              Numerical geology : a source guide, glossary, and
                      selective bibliography to geological uses of computers
                      and statistics / N.M.S. Rock.

Subject(s):         Geology--Data processing.
                    Geology--Statistical methods.

Publisher:          Berlin ; New York : Springer-Verlag, c1988.

Description:        xi, 427 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.

Series:             Lecture notes in earth sciences ; 18

Notes:              Includes index.
                    Bibliography: p. [329]-378.
                    c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        550.285 R682N

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Edwards, Nancy MacLellan.
                    Shaw, Carmine.
                    King, Patricia, 1941-

Title:              Office automation : a glossary and guide / edited by Nancy
                      MacLellan Edwards ; compiled by Carmine Shaw and
                      Patricia King.

Subject(s):         Office practice--Automation--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          White Plains, N.Y. : Knowledge Industry Publications,
                      c1982.

Description:        iv, 275 p. ; 26 cm.

Series:             Office productivity series

Notes:              Includes indexes.
                    /  524759  840530  Midwest  60.87

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        651.803 O32

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Scholes, Percy Alfred, 1877-1958.

Title:              The Oxford companion to music, self-indexed and with a
                      pronouncing glossary and over 1,100 portraits and
                      pictures.

Subject(s):         Music--Dictionaries.
                    Music--Bio-bibliography.

Publisher:          London, New York, Oxford University Press, 1955.

Description:        9th ed., completely rev. and reset and with many additions
                      to text and illus.
                    lx, 1195 p. illus., ports., facsims., music. 25 cm.

Notes:              c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        ML100 .S37 1955

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Kamenetz, Herman L.

Title:              Physiatric dictionary; glossary of physical medicine and
                      rehabilitation, by Herman L. Kamenetz.

Subject(s):         Medicine, Physical--Dictionaries.
                    Rehabilitation--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Springfield, Ill., C.C. Thomas [1965]

Description:        vii, 173 p. 19 cm.

Notes:              c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        615.803 K15P

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Harris, James G., 1954-
Other Author(s):    Harris, Melinda Woolf, 1953-

Title:              Plant identification terminology : an illustrated glossary
                      / James G. Harris, Melinda Woolf Harris.

Subject(s):         Botany--Dictionaries.
                    Botany--Terminology.
                    Plants--Identification.

Publisher:          Spring Lake, Utah : Spring Lake Publishing, c1994.

Description:        ix, 197 p. : ill. ; 26 cm.

Notes:              c.1
                    c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        581.014 H314P

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Edmunds, Robert A.

Title:              The Prentice-Hall standard glossary of computer
                      terminology / Robert A. Edmunds.

Subject(s):         Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.
                    Computers--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Englewood Cliffs, N.J. : Prentice-Hall, Business and
                      Professional Division, c1985.

Description:        xv, 489 p. : ill. ; 29 cm.

Notes:              /  c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        004.03 E24P

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        American Psychiatric Association. Joint Commission on
                      Public Affairs.
Other Author(s):    Werner, Arnold, 1938-
                    American Psychiatric Association. Committee on Public
                      Information.

Title:              A psychiatric glossary / American Psychiatric Association
                      ; edited by a subcommittee of the Joint Commission on
                      Public Affairs, Arnold Werner, chairman.

Subject(s):         Psychiatry--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Boston : Little, Brown, c1980.

Description:        5th ed.
                    ix, 142 p. ; 19 cm.

Notes:              Previous editions edited by the subcommittee of the
                      Committee on Public Information.
                    Bibliography: p. 138.
                    bj  c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        616.89 A5124P 1980

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Fisher, Jeffrey D.
Other Author(s):    Tosh, Dennis S.

Title:              Questions & answers to help you pass the appraisal
                      certification exams : over 1,000 questions, answers, and
                      explanations, glossary of key appraisal terms, includes
                      both residential and income property / Jeffrey D.
                      Fisher, Dennis S. Tosh.

Subject(s):         Real property--Valuation--Examinations, questions, etc.

Publisher:          Chicago : Real Estate Education Co., c1990.

Description:        v, 258 p. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              c.1

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        333.332 F534Q

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Soil Conservation Society of America.

Title:              Resource conservation glossary.

Subject(s):         Conservation of natural resources--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Ankeny, Iowa : Soil Conservation Society of America,
                      c1982.

Description:        3rd ed.
                    193 p. ; 23 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 191-193.
                    / 512662  830203  Pub.  7.00

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        333.72 R434 1982

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Rezny, Arthur Adolph, 1910-

Title:              A schoolman in the law library: problems, bibliography,
                      research tools, analysis of a case, glossary of legal
                      terms, by Arthur A. Rezny.

Subject(s):         Educational law and legislation--Research.
                    Legal research.

Publisher:          Danville, Ill., Interstate Printers & Publishers [c1968]

Description:        2d ed.
                    68 p. 23 cm.

Notes:              Includes bibliography.
                    276008

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        340 R467S 1968

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    United States. School to Work Opportunities Office.

Title:              School-to-work glossary of terms.
Variant Title:      School to work glossary of terms

Subject(s):         United States. School to Work Opportunities Office
                    Education, Cooperative--United States
                    School-to-work transition--United States

Publisher:          Washington, DC (400 Virginia Ave., SW, Rm. 210,
                      Washington, 20024) : National School-to-Work Office,
                      [1999]

Description:        65 p. ; 16 cm.

Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
                    c.1 Temporarily Shelved at MAIN COLLECTION NEW BOOKS
Call Number:        ED 1.2:SCH 6/24/999

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Conkin, James Elvin.
Other Author(s):    Conkin, Barbara M.

Title:              Selected glossary of eastern North American Devonian
                      stratigraphy, pyroclastics, bone beds, disconformities,
                      and correlation / by James E. Conkin and Barbara M.
                      Conkin.

Subject(s):         Geology, Stratigraphic--Devonian.
                    Geology--Atlantic States.

Publisher:          Louisville, Ky. : J. Conkin, c1979.

Description:        iii, 32 p. : ill. ; 22 cm.

Series:             University of Louisville studies in paleontology and
                      stratigraphy ; no. 9

Notes:              Bibliography: p. 32.
                    508223  820730  Pub.  3.00

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        551.74 C752S

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Avis, F. C. (Frederick Compton)

Title:              The sportsman's glossary.

Subject(s):         Sports--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          London, Souvenir Press [1961, c1960; stamped: distributed
                      by Sportshelf, New Rochelle, N.Y.]

Description:        301 p. illus., diagrs. 23 cm.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        796.03 A958S

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Malstrom, Robert.
                    Science Research Associates.

Title:              SRA data processing glossary : with concepts / written by
                      Robert C. Malstrom.

Subject(s):         Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Chicago : SRA, c1979.

Description:        vi, 282 p. : ill. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              494387  810127  Baker & Taylor  10.65

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        001.603 S774

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Tuxen, S?ren Ludvig, 1908-

Title:              Taxonomist's glossary of genitalia in insects. Edited by
                      S. L. Tuxen.

Subject(s):         Insects--Anatomy.
                    Generative organs.
                    Entomology--Nomenclature.

Publisher:          Copenhagen, Munksgaard, 1970.

Description:        2nd rev. and enlarged ed.
                    359 p. illus. 26 cm.

Series:             Scandinavian university books

Notes:              Includes bibliographies.

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        595.7 T967T 1970

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Machovec, George.

Title:              Telecommunications and networking glossary / by George S.
                      Machovec.

Subject(s):         Library information networks--Terminology.
                    Telecommunication in libraries--Terminology.
                    English language--Terms and phrases.

Publisher:          Chicago : Library and Information Technology Association,
                      1990.

Description:        63 p. ; 23 cm.

Series:             LITA guides ; 3

Notes:              Includes bibliographical references (p. 60-62).

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        021.65014 M151T

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Wehlburg, Albert F. C.

Title:              Theatre lighting : an illustrated glossary / by Albert F.
                      C. Wehlburg.

Subject(s):         Stage lighting--Terminology.

Publisher:          New York : Drama Book Specialists, c1975.

Description:        1st ed.
                    62 p. : ill. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              492903  801121  Pub.  7.16

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        792.025 W413T

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Evans, Barbara Jean.

Title:              A to ZAX : a glossary of terminology for genealogists and
                      social historians / Barbara Jean Evans.

Subject(s):         Genealogy--Dictionaries.
                    English language--Glossaries, vocabularies, etc.

Publisher:          Evansville, Ind. : Unigraphic, 1978.

Description:        160, [1] p. : port. ; 29 cm.

Notes:              Bibliography: p. [161]
                    505199  820419  McDowell Pub.  4.95

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        929.03 E92A

 ===============================================================================


Other Author(s):    Short, Nicholas M.
                    Green, Jack, 1925-

Title:              Volcanic landforms and surface features : a photographic
                      atlas and glossary / edited by Jack Green and Nicholas
                      M. Short.

Subject(s):         Volcanoes--Pictorial works.
                    Landforms--Pictorial works.

Publisher:          New York : Springer-Verlag, 1971.

Description:        xxiv, 519 p. : ill. ; 30 cm.

Notes:              Includes bibliographies.
                    403085  731217  Pub.  17.28

Location:           MAIN OVERSIZE COLLECTION
Call Number:        551.21 V911

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Thiessen, Alfred Henry, 1872-
Other Author(s):    United States. Weather Bureau.

Title:              Weather glossary, compiled by Alfred T. Thiessen.

Subject(s):         Meteorology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Washington, U.S. Dept. of Commerce, Weather Bureau [1946]

Description:        iv, 299 p. 24 cm.

Notes:              At head of title: W.B. no. 1445. Issued August 1, 1946.
                    c.1

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        551.503 T439W

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Bragonier, Reginald.
Other Author(s):    Fisher, David, 1946-

Title:              What's what, a visual glossary of the physical world /
                      Reginald Bragonier, Jr. and David Fisher.

Subject(s):         Picture dictionaries, English.
                    Picture dictionaries.
                    Vocabulary.
                    English language--Terms and phrases.
                    Technology--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Maplewood, N.J. : Hammond, c1981.

Description:        viii, 565 p. : ill. ; 29 cm.

Notes:              Includes index.
                    Pictures of common objects and the parts of which they are
                      composed, classed under general categories such as
                      living things, transportation, and personal items, are
                      identified by name.
                    bj  c.1

Location:           LRC BOOKS (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        031.02 B813W
                         ______________________________

Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
Call Number:        031.02 B813W

 ===============================================================================


Main Author:        Bragonier, Reginald.
Other Author(s):    Fisher, David, 1946-

Title:              What's what in sports : the visual glossary of the sports
                      world / Reginald Bragonier, Jr. and David Fisher.

Subject(s):         Sports--Dictionaries.

Publisher:          Maplewood, N.J. : Hammond, c1984.

Description:        242 p. : ill. ; 28 cm.

Notes:              Includes index.
                    /  533587  851011  Midwest  19.01

Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
Call Number:        796.03 B813W

 ===============================================================================



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Camden-Carroll Library
Morehead State University
(606)783-2200


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 22:47:42 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:47:42 -0500
Subject: born-again (was Christian suggestion)
In-Reply-To: <19991110.171320.13758.0.pskuhlman@juno.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.174742.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Recall the now-popularized hymn, "Amazing Grace":  "I was lost but now I'm
found."  I wonder if the phrase you cite has spread because of the hymn?

At 05:05 PM 11/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>      True story.  A friend of mine who was a social worker in Texas
>overheard this interchange between a Texan client and a newly arrived
>social worker from New York.  The client says:  "Are you lost or are you
>found?"  The truly puzzled newcomer to the land of born-again Christians
>replied without missing a beat:  "I'm from New York."
>      I'm from New York via northern Illinois, so I have no idea whether
>lost and found are common terms for unsaved and saved, but I think it's a
>great story.  It sounds apocryphal, but my friend swears on the Bible
>that it's true.
>
>Patricia Kuhlman
>Brooklyn, NY
>pskuhlman at juno.com


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Wed Nov 10 22:56:40 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:56:40 -0800
Subject: born-again (was Christian suggestion)
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.145640.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Patricia S. Kuhlman" wrote:
>
> great story.  It sounds apocryphal, but my friend swears on the Bible
> that it's true.
>

And which bible would that be? ;-}

(sorry)
Andrea


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 23:14:24 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:14:24 -0500
Subject: dialect samples on cassette
In-Reply-To: <19991110224643.43096.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.181424.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have two from England:  "In a Manner of Speaking," from BBC English
(order from Audio Forum, Guilford, Conn.): Includes several British Isles
dialects, Australia, So. Africa, India, Nigeria, W. Indies, etc., and a few
from U.S. and Canada.

"English Accents and Dialects," which accompanies Hughes and Trudgill's 3rd
ed. of the book by that title (but only covers the British Isles).

Language Files from OSU also has some tapes; and I have an old tape that
accompanies _Standards and Dialects in English_ (Shopen and Williams),
which has Black English, AppEng, NYC (but upper class only), etc.

Usually I have my students make up their own tapes as well.

At 02:46 PM 11/10/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Does anybody know of an audio tape series which gives examples of different
>dialects of English? What I have found is intended for actors to develop THE
>southern accent, THE New York accent, etc, rather than real samples from
>real speakers. We would like to expose our students to dialects they might
>otherwise never hear authentically used, such as Appalachian speech or
>different Southern dialects. I doubt anything is available in one handy
>dandy series, but if it's out there I'd love to know about it.
>
>Thanks for your suggestions,
>
>Sarah Worthington
>Arizona State University
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov 10 23:16:04 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:16:04 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries (first of two)
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.181604.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A CD-Rom search any of us should be able to do, right?  As I tell my
students!  Ditto for pub info: They give me a Bib. with a book or article
title and say they don't know where it came from; I tell 'em, "Look it up!"

At 05:43 PM 11/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>A search of our system turned up the following glossaries.
>
>
>Virtually, Terry
>(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
>=(*)
>Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
>Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
>Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
>(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
>=(*)
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:43:20 -0500
>From: voyager at eastlib.uky.edu
>To: t.irons at morehead-st.edu
>Subject: Opac Title Search for Glossary
>
>Other Author(s):    Young, Heartsill, 1917-
>                     Belanger, Terry.
>
>Title:              The ALA glossary of library and information science /
>                       Heartsill Young, editor, with the assistance of Terry
>                       Belanger ... [et al.].
>
>Subject(s):         Library science--Dictionaries.
>                     Information science--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Chicago : American Library Association, 1983.
>
>Description:        xvi, 245 p. ; 27 cm.
>
>Notes:              x  519057  831114  Pub.  52.63
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        020.3 A11
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    American Psychiatric Association.
>                     American Psychiatric Association. Joint Commission on
>                       Public Affairs.
>
>Title:              [Psychiatric glossary.
>                     The American Psychiatric Association's Psychiatric
>                       glossary / edited by a subcommittee of the Joint
>                       Commission on Public Affairs.
>
>Subject(s):         Psychiatry--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Washington, D.C. : Distributed by the American Psychiatric
>                       Press, c1984.
>
>Description:        Trade ed.
>                     ix, 142 p. ; 21 cm.
>
>Notes:              Previous ed. published as: A psychiatric glossary. 1980.
>                     Bibliography: p. 138.
>                     #  c.1
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        616.89 A512P 1984
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Stone, Evelyn M.
>Other Author(s):    American Psychiatric Association.
>
>Title:              American psychiatric glossary.
>
>Publisher:          Washington, DC : American Psychiatric Press, c1988.
>
>Description:        6th ed. / compiled and edited by Evelyn M. Stone ;
>                       editorial advisory board, Shervert H. Frazier ... [et
>                       al.].
>                     217 p. ; 18 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 175.
>                     Over 1200 terms with brief definitions referring to
>                       psychiatric disorders, persons, organizations, eponyms,
>                       and concepts.  Incorporates revised nomenclature of
>                       DIAGNOSTIC AND STATISTICAL MANUAL
> (DSM-III-R).  Contains
>                       references, a list of abbreviations, and miscellaneous
>                       tables.  Many cross references.
>                     bj  c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        616.89 A512PA 1988
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Pettijohn, F. J. (Francis John), 1904-
>Other Author(s):    Potter, Paul Edwin.
>
>Title:              Atlas and glossary of primary sedimentary structures, by
>                       F. J. Pettijohn and Paul Edwin Potter. Translations
> into
>                       Spanish, French, and German by Juan Carlos Riggi,
>                       Marie-H?l?ne Sachet, and Hans-Ulrich Schmincke.
>
>Subject(s):         Sedimentary structures.
>
>Publisher:          Berlin, New York, Springer-Verlag, 1964.
>
>Description:        xv, 370 p. illus. 28 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 365-370.
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        552.5 P551A
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Whitehead, Harry.
>
>Title:              An A-Z of offshore oil & gas ; an illustrated
>                       international glossary and reference guide to the
>                       offshore oil & gas industries and their technology /
>                       [by] Harry Whitehead ; [maps and diagrams Pamela
>                       Poulter].
>
>Subject(s):         Petroleum in submerged lands--Dictionaries.
>                     Natural gas in submerged lands--Dictionaries.
>                     Petroleum industry and trade--Directories.
>                     Offshore gas industry--Directories.
>
>Publisher:          London : Kogan Page, 1976.
>
>Description:        339 p. : ill., maps, plan ; 29 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 336.
>                     dn  c.1
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        622.338 W592A
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Schmalz, Larry C.
>Other Author(s):    Bailey, Thomas R.
>                     Sippl, Charles J.
>
>Title:              Beginning computer glossary for businessmen, by Larry C.
>                       Schmalz, Thomas R. Bailey [and] Charles J. Sippl.
>
>Subject(s):         Business--Data processing--Dictionaries.
>                     Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York, Funk & Wagnalls [1973, c1972]
>
>Description:        vi, 246 p. illus. 24 cm.
>
>Series:             Funk & Wagnalls library of computer science
>
>Notes:              bl  c.1
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        001.6402 S247B
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        National Research Council (U.S.). Committee on Animal
>                       Nutrition.
>Other Author(s):    Harris, Lorin E., 1915-
>
>Title:              Biological energy interrelationships and glossary of
>                       energy terms; a report. Prepared by Lorin E. Harris.
>
>Subject(s):         Nutrition--Terminology.
>                     Energy metabolism--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          Washington, National Academy of Sciences-National Research
>                       Council, 1966.
>
>Description:        1st rev. ed.
>                     35 p. illus. 24 cm.
>
>Series:             National Research Council (U.S.) Publication 1411
>
>Notes:              At head of title: Nutrient requirements of domestic
>                       animals.
>                     "For use as a reference in connection with the series of
>                       published reports on Nutrient requirements of domestic
>                       animals."
>                     First published in 1962 under title: Glossary of energy
>                       terms.
>                     Bibliography: p. 19-22.
>                     458532 770916 Midwest 5.84
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        636.085 N277B 1966
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Joint Electron Device Engineering Council. Electron Tube
>                       Council.
>
>Title:              Cathode ray tubes : glossary of terms and definitions /
>                       JEDEC Electron Tube Council.
>
>Subject(s):         Cathode ray tubes--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Washington : Electronic Industries Association, 1975.
>
>Description:         12 p. ; 28 cm.
>
>Series:             JEDEC Publiction ; no. 92.
>
>Notes:              Cover title.
>                     466036  780427  Pub. 2.40
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        621.381542 J74C
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    Potts, Jackie.
>                     Office Automation Society International.
>
>Title:              Comprehensive glossary of office automation / compiled and
>                       edited by Jackie Potts.
>
>Subject(s):         Office practice--Automation--Dictionaries.
>                     Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Dumfries, Va. : Office Automation Society International,
>                       c1986.
>
>Description:        1st ed.
>                      vii, 526 p. ; 28 cm.
>
>Notes:              #  c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        651.84 C737
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Freedman, Alan, 1942-
>
>Title:              The computer glossary : the complete illustrated desk
>                       reference / Alan Freedman.
>
>Subject(s):         Computers--Dictionaries.
>                     Electronic data processing--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York, NY : AMACOM, c1991.
>
>Description:        5th ed.
>                     xxiii, 670 p. ; ill. : 26 cm.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        004.03 F853C 1991
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Stein, J. Stewart.
>
>Title:              Construction glossary : an encyclopedic reference and
>                       manual / J. Stewart Stein.
>
>Subject(s):         Building--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York : Wiley, c1980.
>
>Description:        xvii, 1013 p. ; 26 cm.
>
>Series:             Wiley series of practical construction guides
>
>Notes:              "A Wiley-Interscience publication."
>                     Includes index.
>                     502768  820104  Midwest  65.93
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        690.03 S819C
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Wolfe, Gary K., 1946-
>
>Title:              Critical terms for science fiction and fantasy : a
>                       glossary and guide to scholarship / Gary K. Wolfe.
>
>Subject(s):         Fantastic fiction--Dictionaries.
>                     Science fiction--Dictionaries.
>                     Criticism--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York : Greenwood Press, c1986.
>
>Description:        xxvi, 162 p. ; 25 cm.
>
>Notes:              Includes index.
>                     Bibliography: p. [145]-155.
>                     MH  c.1
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        809.3876 W855C
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Boucher, Carl O.
>
>Title:              Current clinical dental terminology; a glossary of
>                       accepted terms in all disciplines of dentistry.
> Compiled
>                       and edited by Carl O. Boucher.
>
>Subject(s):         Dentistry--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Saint Louis, C. V. Mosby Co., 1974.
>
>Description:        2d ed.
>                     xx, 442 p. 26 cm.
>
>Notes:              Third ed. published as: Boucher's clinical dental
>                       terminology. 1982.
>                     Bibliography: p. xiii-xvii.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        617.6003 B753C 1974
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Mandl, Matthew.
>
>Title:              Directory of electronic circuits, with a glossary of terms
>                       / Matthew Mandl.
>
>Subject(s):         Electronic circuits.
>
>Publisher:          Englewood Cliffs, N.J. : Prentice-Hall, c1978.
>
>Description:        Rev. and enl.
>                     xiv, 321 p. : diagrs. ; 24 cm.
>
>Notes:              Includes index.
>                     480984  790808  Midwest  15.88
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        621.38153 M272D 1978
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        United States. Defense Intelligence Agency.
>
>Title:              A DOD glossary of mapping, charting and geodetic terms.
>
>Subject(s):         Maps--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          [Washington] 1967.
>
>Description:        1st ed.
>                     v, 243 p. 26 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 241-243.
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        526.014 U58D
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Institute of Ecology.
>
>Title:              An ecological glossary for engineers & resource managers /
>                       TIE.
>
>Subject(s):         Ecology--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Logan, Utah : The Institute, [1974]
>
>Description:        50 p. ; 22 cm.
>
>Notes:              Cover title.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        574.503 I59A
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Brackley, Peter, 1923-
>
>Title:              Energy and environmental terms : a glossary / compiled by
>                       Peter Brackley.
>
>Subject(s):         Power resources--Dictionaries.
>                     Environmental protection--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Aldershot, Hants, England ; Brookfield, Vt., USA : Gower,
>                        c1988.
>
>Description:        ix, 189 p. : ill. ; 23 cm.
>
>Series:
>                     Energy papers ; no. 24
>
>Notes:              Series statement from jkt.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        333.790321 B797E
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Curl, James Stevens, 1937-
>
>Title:              English architecture : an illustrated glossary / James
>                       Stevens Curl ; with a foreword by Lord Muirshiel ; and
>                       drawings by John J. Sambrook.
>
>Subject(s):         Architecture--England--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Newton Abbot ; North Pomfret, Vt. : David & Charles,
>                       c1977.
>
>Description:        192 p. : ill. ; 26 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 189-191.
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        720.3 C975E
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Keen, Peter G. W.
>
>Title:              Every manager's guide to information technology : a
>                       glossary of key terms and concepts for today's business
>                       leaders / Peter G.W. Keen.
>
>Subject(s):         Information technology--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Boston, Mass. : Harvard Business School Press, c1991.
>
>Description:        viii, 170 p. ;  23 cm.
>
>Notes:              Includes index.
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        004.024658 K26E
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    Defense Systems Management College. Acquisition Policy
>                       Dept.
>
>Title:              Glossary : defense acquisition acronyms and terms.
>Variant Title:      Defense acquisition acronyms and terms
>
>Subject(s):         United States. Dept. of Defense--Procurement--Terminology.
>                     Weapons systems--United States--Purchasing--Terminology.
>                     Weapons systems--United States--Purchasing--Acronyms.
>
>Publisher:          Fort Belvoir, Va. : Dept. of Defense, Defense Systems
>                       Management College, Acquisition Policy Dept., 1998.
>
>Description:        9th ed.
>                     22, 136 p. ; 28 cm.
>
>Notes:              Shipping list no.: 99-0069-P.
>                     "November 1998."
>
>Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
>Call Number:        D 1.2:G 51/2/998
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Soule, James.
>Other Author(s):    American Society for Horticultural Science.
>
>Title:              Glossary for horticultural crops / James Soule ; sponsored
>                       by the American Society for Horticultural Science.
>
>Subject(s):         Horticulture--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          New York : Wiley, c1985.
>
>Description:        xxvi, 898 p. : ill. ; 27 cm.
>
>Notes:              Includes indexes.
>                     Bibliography: p. 679-692.
>                     #  c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        635.014 S722G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Walker, John Albert, 1938-
>
>Title:              Glossary of art, architecture, and design since 1945 :
>                       terms and labels describing movements styles and groups
>                       derived from the vocabulary of artists and critics /
>                       John A Walker.
>
>Subject(s):         Art--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          London : Bingley ; Hamden, Ct. : Linnet Books, 1977.
>
>Description:        2d rev. ed.
>                     352 p. ; 23 cm.
>
>Notes:              Includes bibliographical references and index.
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        709.04 W181G 1977
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        American Society for Testing and Materials.
>Other Author(s):    American Society for Testing and Materials. Committee E-8
>                       on Nomenclature and Definitions.
>
>Title:              Glossary of ASTM definitions, sponsored by ASTM Committee
>                       E-8 on Nomenclature and Definitions.
>
>Publisher:          Philadelphia, 1973.
>
>Description:        Second edition.
>                     540 p. illus.
>
>Notes:              "This second edition of the Glossary of ASTM Definitions
>                       is a compilation of all terms listed under the heading
>                       "Definitions" in the 1972 edition of the Annual Book of
>                       ASTM Standards."--Foreword.
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        603 A512G 1973
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Hopkins, Jeanne.
>
>Title:              [Astrophysical journal.
>                     Glossary of astronomy and astrophysics / Jeanne Hopkins ;
>                       foreword by S. Chandrasekhar.
>
>Subject(s):         Astronomy--Dictionaries.
>                     Astrophysics--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Chicago : University of Chicago Press, 1980.
>
>Description:        2nd ed., rev. and enl.
>                     ix, 196 p. ; 24 cm.
>
>Notes:              "Published under the auspices of the Astrophysical
>                       journal"--verso t.p.
>                     497812  810601  Midwest  16.61
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        520.321 H794G 1980
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Glick, David M., 1936-
>
>Title:              Glossary of biochemistry and molecular biology / David M.
>                       Glick.
>
>Subject(s):         Biochemistry--Terminology.
>                     Molecular biology--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          London ; Miami : Portland Press, 1997.
>
>Description:        Rev. ed.
>                     214 p. ; 20 cm.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        572.03 G559 1997
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Jackson, Benjamin Daydon, 1846-1927.
>
>Title:              A glossary of botanic terms with their derivation and
>                       accent. By Benjamin Daydon Jackson ...
>
>Subject(s):         Botany--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          London, Duckworth; Philadelphia, J. B. Lippincott Company
>                       [1928]
>
>Description:        4th ed., rev., and enl.
>                     x, [2], 481 p. 22 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 478-481.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        580.3 J12G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Hampel, Clifford A.
>Other Author(s):    Hawley, Gessner Goodrich, 1905-
>
>Title:              Glossary of chemical terms / Clifford A. Hampel and
>                       Gessner G. Hawley.
>
>Subject(s):         Chemistry--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York : Van Nostrand Reinhold, c1982.
>
>Description:        2nd ed.
>                     ix, 306 p. ; 23 cm.
>
>Notes:              /517830  830912  Midwest  18.98
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        540.321 H229G 1982
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Isham, Norman Morrison, 1864-1943.
>Other Author(s):    Mercer, Henry Chapman, 1856-1930.
>
>Title:              A glossary of colonial architectural terms, by Norman
>                       Morrison Isham. With a bibliography of books,
> 1880-1930.
>                       The dating of old houses, by Henry C. Mercer.
>
>Subject(s):         Architecture, Colonial--Dictionaries.
>                     Art, Colonial--Bibliography.
>                     Historic buildings--Pennsylvania.
>
>Publisher:          [Watkins Glen, N.Y.] American Life  Foundation, 1968.
>
>Description:        [64] p. illus. 23 cm.
>
>Series:             Classic guidebooks to the visual arts
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. [59]-[64]
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        720.3 I79G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    United States. Bureau of Labor Statistics.
>
>Title:              Glossary of compensation terms.
>
>Subject(s):         United States. Bureau of Labor Statistics.
>
>Publisher:          Washington, DC (2 Massachusetts Ave., NE, Washington
>                       20212-0001) : U.S. Dept. of Labor, Bureau of Labor
>                       Statistics, [1998]
>
>Description:        74 p. ; 28 cm.
>
>Series:             Report ; 923
>
>Notes:              Shipping list no.: 98-0377-P.
>                     "August 1998."
>
>Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
>Call Number:        L 2.71:923
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    Mercer, John, 1918-
>                     Lyons, Timothy J. (Timothy James).
>
>Title:              Glossary of film terms / compiled by John Mercer ; James
>                       R. Crocker, compilation assistant ; review panel: Loren
>                       Cocking, Lee McConkey, Ken  Miura ; editor: Timothy J.
>                       Lyons ; editorial vice-president: Robert W. Wagner.
>
>Subject(s):         Motion pictures--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Philadelphia : University Film Association, 1978.
>
>Description:        91 p. ; 26 cm.
>
>Series:             University Film Association. Monograph, no. 2
>                     UFA monograph series
>
>Notes:              c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        791.43 G563
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        American Fisheries Society. Fish Health Section.
>Other Author(s):    Post, George.
>                     Klontz, William G.
>
>Title:              Glossary of fish health terms / editors, George Post and
>                       William G. Klontz.
>
>Subject(s):         Fishes--Diseases--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          [Bethesda, Md.] : American Fisheries Society, Fish Health
>                       Section, 1977.
>
>Description:        48 p. ; 28 cm.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        597.003 A512
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Rieger, Rigomar.
>Other Author(s):    Michaelis, Arnd.
>                     Green, Melvin M.
>                     Rieger, Rigomar.
>
>Title:              A glossary of genetics and cytogenetics, classical and
>                       molecular.
>
>Subject(s):         Genetics--Dictionaries.
>                     Cytogenetics--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Berlin, New York, [etc.] Springer-Verlag, 1968.
>
>Description:        3rd ed. completely revised by Rigomar Rieger, Arnd
>                       Michaelis [and] Melvin M. Green.
>                     506 p. illus. 22 cm.
>
>Notes:              "The first and second editions of this book were published
>                       in German ... under the title: Genetisches und
>                       cytogenetisches W?rterbuch."
>                     Bibliography: p. 462-[506]
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        575.103 R554G 1968
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Biass-Ducroux, Fran?oise.
>Other Author(s):    Napp-Zinn, Klaus, 1927-
>
>Title:              Glossary of genetics in English, French, Spanish, Italian,
>                       German, Russian. Compiled and arranged by Fran?oise
>                       Biass-Ducroux in collaboration with Klaus Napp-Zinn.
>                       Russian translation by Nikolaj V. Luchnik.
>
>Subject(s):         Genetics--Dictionaries--Polyglot.
>                     Dictionaries, Polyglot.
>
>Publisher:          Amsterdam, New York, Elsevier Pub. Co., 1970.
>
>Description:        x, 436 p. 20 cm.
>
>Series:             Glossaria interpretum ; 16
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        575.103 B579G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Bates, Robert Latimer, 1912-
>Other Author(s):    Jackson, Julia A., 1939-
>
>Title:              Glossary of geology / Robert L. Bates and Julia A.
>                       Jackson, editors.
>
>Subject(s):         Geology--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Alexandria, Va. : American Geological Institute, 1987.
>
>Description:        3rd ed.
>                     x, 788 p. ; 26 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p.
>                     bj  c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        550.3 B329G 1987
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Pinney, Edward Lowell, 1925-
>Other Author(s):    Slipp, Samuel.
>
>Title:              Glossary of group and family therapy / Edward L. Pinney,
>                       Jr. and Samuel Slipp.
>
>Subject(s):         Group psychotherapy--Terminology.
>                     Family psychotherapy--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          New York : Brunner/Mazel, c1982.
>
>Description:        xvii, 149 p. ; 21 cm.
>
>Notes:              510434  820928  Midwest  14.26
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        616.8915 P656G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    United States. Dept. of Health and Human Services.
>
>Title:              Glossary of HIV/AIDS-related terms.
>Variant Title:      Glossary of HIV/AIDS related terms.
>
>Subject(s):         AIDS (Disease)--United States.
>                     HIV infections--United States.
>
>Publisher:          [Rockville, Md.? : Dept. of Health & Human Services,
>                       [1995]
>
>Description:        111 p. ; 22 cm.
>
>Notes:              Shipping list no.: 96-0075-P.
>                     "June 1995."
>
>Location:           U.S. DOCUMENTS
>Call Number:        HE 1.2:G 51
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Pei, Mario, 1901-
>
>Title:              Glossary of linguistic terminology [by] Mario Pei.
>
>Subject(s):         Linguistics--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York, Columbia University Press, 1966.
>
>Description:        xvi, 299 p. 21 cm.
>
>Notes:              c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        410.3 P377G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    Huschke, R. E. (Ralph E.), 1925-
>                     American Meteorological Society.
>
>Title:              Glossary of meteorology. Edited by Ralph E. Huschke.
>
>Subject(s):         Meteorology--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Boston, American Meteorological Society, 1959.
>
>Description:        viii, 638 p. 24 cm.
>
>Notes:              "Sponsored by U.S. Department of Commerce, Weather Bureau
>                       [and others]"
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        551.503 G563
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Joint Electron Device Engineering Council. Solid State
>                       Products Council.
>
>Title:              Glossary of microelectronic terms, definitions, and
>                       symbols / formulated by JEDEC Solid State Product
>                       Council.
>
>Subject(s):         Microelectronics--Terminology.
>                     Microelectronics--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Washington : Electronic Industries Association,
>                       Engineering Department, 1977.
>
>Description:        [Rev. ed.]
>                     61 p. (in various pagings) : ill. ; 28 cm.
>
>Series:             Publication - JEDEC ; no. 99
>
>Notes:              Includes index.
>                     466032  780427  Pub. 5.40
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        621.3817 J74G 1977
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Amstutz, G. C. (Gerhardt Christian), 1922-
>Other Author(s):    Aguilar, O.
>
>Title:              Glossary of mining geology. In English, Spanish, French
>                       and German. By G. C. Amstutz. In cooperation with O.
>                       Aguilar, A. Bernard, F. El Baz, a.o.
>
>Subject(s):         Geology, Economic--Dictionaries--Polyglot.
>                     Mining engineering--Dictionaries--Polyglot.
>                     Dictionaries, Polyglot.
>
>Publisher:          Stuttgart, Enke Verlag, 1971.
>
>Description:        xi, 197 p. with illus. 22 cm.
>
>Notes:              Imprint covered by label: Elsevier Pub. Co., Amsterdam.
>                     Bibliography: p. 161.
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        553.03 A528G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Evans, Anthony.
>
>Title:              Glossary of molecular biology / A. Evans.
>
>Subject(s):         Molecular biology--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York : Wiley, [1975] c1974.
>
>Description:        55 p. ; 23 cm.
>
>Notes:              "A Halsted Press book."
>                     Bibliography: p. 51-55.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        574.8803 E92G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Cranston, Maurice William, 1920-
>Other Author(s):    Lakoff, Sanford A.
>
>Title:              [Glossary of political terms
>                     A glossary of political ideas, edited by Maurice Cranston
>                       and Sanford A. Lakoff.
>
>Subject(s):         Political science--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          New York, Basic Books [1969]
>
>Description:        xii, 180 p. 22 cm.
>
>Series:             Culture & discovery
>
>Notes:              1966 ed. has title: A glossary of political terms.
>                     Includes bibliographies.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        320.03 C891G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Sessoms, H. Douglas (Hanson Douglas)
>Other Author(s):    National Recreation and Park Association.
>
>Title:              Glossary of recreation and park terms.
>
>Subject(s):         Recreation--Terminology.
>                     Parks--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          Arlington, Va., National Recreation and Park Association,
>                       1972.
>
>Description:        43 p. 23 cm.
>
>Series:             Management aids ; bull. no. 95
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        790.02 N277M
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Cloud, Sherrill.
>Other Author(s):    National Center for Higher Education Management Systems.
>
>Title:              A glossary of standard terminology for postsecondary
>                       education 1978-79 / compiled by Sherrill Cloud.
>
>Subject(s):         Education, Higher--United States--Dictionaries.
>                     Universities and colleges--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          Boulder, Colo. : National Center for Higher Education
>                       Management Systems, [1979?]
>
>Description:        x, 109 p. ; 23 cm.
>
>Notes:              483157  791031  Baker & Taylor  5.00
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        378 C647G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        National Fluid Power Association.
>
>Title:              Glossary of terms for fluid power.
>
>Subject(s):         Fluid mechanics--Dictionaries.
>                     Hydraulic engineering--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Thiensville, Wis., 1965.
>
>Description:        4th interim ed.
>                     30 p. ; 28 cm.
>
>Notes:              c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        532 N277A
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        National Research Council (U.S.). Conference on Glossary
>                       of Terms in Nuclear Science and Technology.
>
>Title:              A glossary of terms in nuclear science and technology.
>
>Subject(s):         Nuclear energy--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York, American Society of Mechanical Engineers [1957]
>
>Description:        a-e, 188 p. diagrs. 22 cm.
>
>Series:             ASME standard ; 110
>
>Notes:              c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>                     c.1 Temporarily Shelved at REFERENCE COLLECTION
>                       (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        539.76 N2778G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Gough, Henry, 1821-1906.
>
>Title:              A glossary of terms used in heraldry [by] Henry Gough &
>                       James Parker.
>
>Subject(s):         Heraldry--Great Britain.
>                     Heraldry--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          [Detroit] Gale Research Co., 1966.
>
>Description:        New ed. Oxford, J. Parker, 1894.
>                     xxviii, 659 p. illus., coats of arms. 23 cm.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        929.6 G692G 1966
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Stone, George Cameron.
>
>Title:              A glossary of the construction, decoration and use of arms
>                       and armor in all countries and in all times, together
>                       with some closely related subjects.
>
>Subject(s):         Weapons--Dictionaries.
>                     Armor--Dictionaries
>
>Publisher:          New York, Jack Brussel, Pub. [c1961]
>
>Description:        694 p. illus. 30 cm.
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 687-694.
>                     c.1
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        739.7 S877G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Conseil international de la langue fran?aise.
>Other Author(s):    Brace, Paul.
>
>Title:              Glossary of the environment ; with French and German
>                       equivalents / Conseil international de la langue
>                       fran?aise ; adapted by Paul Brace ; foreword by Ren?
>                       Dubos.
>
>Subject(s):         Human ecology--Dictionaries.
>                     Environmental protection--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          New York : Praeger, 1977.
>
>Description:        xi, 117 p. ; 24 cm.
>
>Series:             Praeger special studies in international economics and
>                       development
>
>Notes:              Includes index.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        301.3103 C755G
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Williams, G. L.
>Other Author(s):    Sarjeant, William Antony S.
>                     Kidson, Evan J. (Evan Joseph), 1930-
>                     American Association of Stratigraphic Palynologists.
>
>Title:              A glossary of the terminology applied to dinoflagellate
>                       amphiesmae and cysts and acritarchs / by Graham L.
>                       Williams, William A. S. Sarjeant, Evan J. Kidson.
>
>Subject(s):         Dinoflagellates, Fossil--Terminology.
>                     Acritarchs--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          [s.l.] : American Association of Stratigraphic
>                       Palynologists, 1978.
>
>Description:        1978 ed.
>                     121 p., [1] leaf of plates : ill. ; 28 cm.
>
>Series:             Contributions series - American Association of
>                       Stratigraphic Palynologists ; no. 2A
>
>Notes:              Bibliography: p. 84-90.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        561.13 W723G 1978
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    Geer, Ira W.
>
>Title:              Glossary of weather and climate : with related oceanic and
>                       hydrologic terms / edited by Ira W. Geer.
>
>Subject(s):         Meteorology--Dictionaries.
>                     Climatology--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Boston, Mass. : American Meteorological Society, 1996.
>
>Description:        vi, 272 p. ; 24 cm.
>
>Notes:              Includes bibliographical references (p. 271-271).
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        551.503 G5634
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Etter, Lewis E.
>
>Title:              Glossary of words and phrases used in radiology, nuclear
>                       medicine, and ultrasound. Prepared from various sources
>                       for medical secretaries, X-ray technicians, medical
>                       students, and residents in radiology by Lewis E. Etter.
>                       With a section on suggested terminology for
>                       roentgenological reports, devised by Doctors Fisher,
>                       Bovard, and Bacon for the Pennsylvania Radiological
>                       Society. Foreword (1st ed.) by Olive G. Johnson.
>                       Foreword (2d ed.) by Patricia Warchock.
>
>Subject(s):         Radiology, Medical--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Springfield, Ill., C.C. Thomas [1970]
>
>Description:        2d ed.
>                     xxv, 355 p. 26 cm.
>
>Notes:              "New revised edition."
>                     First ed. published in 1960 under title: Glossary of
> words
>                       and phrases used in radiology and nuclear medicine.
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        616.07 E85G 1970
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Main Author:        Hurov, L.
>
>Title:              Handbook of veterinary surgical instruments and glossary
>                       of surgical terms / L. Hurov, with the assistance of K.
>                       Knauer, R. Playter, R. Sexton.
>
>Subject(s):         Veterinary surgery--Instruments.
>                     Veterinary surgery--Terminology.
>
>Publisher:          Philadelphia : Saunders, 1978.
>
>Description:        x, 214 p. : ill. ; 27 cm.
>
>Notes:              Includes indexes.
>                     471024 781031 Midwest 18.09
>
>Location:           MAIN COLLECTION
>Call Number:        636.089 H966H
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>Other Author(s):    Prytherch, R. J. (Raymond John)
>
>Title:              Harrod's librarians' glossary of terms used in
>                       librarianship, documentation and the book crafts and
>                       reference book / compiled by Ray Prytherch.
>
>Subject(s):         Library science--Dictionaries.
>
>Publisher:          Aldershot : Gower, 1987.
>
>Description:        6th ed.
>                     x, 855 p. ; 22 cm.
>
>Notes:              /
>
>Location:           REFERENCE COLLECTION (Noncirculating)
>Call Number:        010.3 H323L 1987
>
>===========================================================================
>=====
>
>
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Camden-Carroll Library
>Morehead State University
>(606)783-2200


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Wed Nov 10 20:38:41 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 15:38:41 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.153841.0500.>

Well, I don't know whether linguistics and literary criticism are
considered "professions" (rather than disciplines?  With the first
request, I assumed you were looking for the sorts of things that people
don't get BAs and PhDs in, but rather MFAs, BSs, whatever), but here are
the discipline-specialized dictionaries on my shelf:

Mario Pei and Frank Gaynor's _Dictionary of Linguistics_, Philosophical
Library, 1954.
    Sure, it's old, but it was free and it's useful for looking up
obscure case names or phonetic terms.  But didn't Bill Ladusaw (for some
reason I don't understand...) do a dictionary of phonetics  (or maybe
that was a symbol guide)?  My colleague-to-be, Larry Trask, did _A
Dictionary of Grammatical Terms in Linguistics_ (Routledge, 1993), which
I suppose I should acquire soon to replace the Pei.

Ross Murfin and Supryia Ray's _The Bedford Glossary of Critical and
Literary Terms_, 1997.
    Even though it's called a "glossary", its entries aren't
glosses--they're more encyclopedic.  The entry for "Marxist criticism"
is 7 pp. long.  Helps me figure out the mysteries of my colleagues'
course descriptions...

Richard Spears' _NTC's Dictionary of Grammar Terminology_, 1991.
    Helpful for using pedagogical grammar books, but seems like it's
pitched to a linguistically much less sophisticated audience--probably
educationists.  Intro says it's pitched to "the needs of students and
teachers alike."

I've often used the web to check  specialized terminology  and found a
lot of glossaries there. I can't think off-hand of any that I used (one
was about wall-paper hanging, but I don't know the URL).  I don't know
whether web glossaries count for your study, but some of them, I think,
are web versions of printed things, and that might be a quick way to
find things that are not only out there, but are also being used.

Lynne


--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP  Thu Nov 11 00:13:46 1999
From: dlong at BCOMP.METRO-U.AC.JP (Daniel Long)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:13:46 +0900
Subject: Navajo code-talkers
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.091346.0900.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is a lot of information at this military site, including a dictionary.

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq61-1.htm
          American Indian Medal of Honor Winners
          Navajo Code Talkers in World War II: A Bibliography
          Navajo Code Talker Fact Sheet
          Navajo Code Talker Dictionary
Danny Long

--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-426-77-2184
Japanese Language and Literature Dept.    fax  +81-426-77-2140
Tokyo Metropolitan University
1-1 Minami Osawa, Hachioji-shi, Tokyo  192-0397 Japan
mailto:dlong at bcomp.metro-u.ac.jp
http://nihongo.human.metro-u.ac.jp/long/


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Thu Nov 11 01:32:53 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:32:53 -0500
Subject: CD_Rom?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991110181556.00ba52d0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.203253.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

>A CD-Rom search any of us should be able to do, right?  As I tell my
>students!  Ditto for pub info: They give me a Bib. with a book or article
>title and say they don't know where it came from; I tell 'em, "Look it
up!"

Perhaps I am missing something, but I don't understand how a CD-Rom search
will tell me which professional glossaries are excellent or even fairly
decent.

???

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Thu Nov 11 01:34:49 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:34:49 -0500
Subject: More re glossaries
In-Reply-To: <3829D7D0.81604AFE@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.203449.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu> wrote:
Well, I don't know whether linguistics and literary criticism are
considered "professions" (rather than disciplines?  With the first
request, I assumed you were looking for the sorts of things that people
don't get BAs and PhDs in, but rather MFAs, BSs, whatever), but here are
the discipline-specialized dictionaries on my shelf:

And do you rate them all as excellent? Or decent?

Thanks,
Bethany


From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 11 01:53:50 1999
From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:53:50 PST
Subject: NYC/NO similarities
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.175350.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David Bergdahl writes:

>it's in AMERICAN TALK: WHERE OUR WORDS CAME FROM that [JL Dillard]
>attributes the resemblance to maritime pidgin influence on
>both.  See the chapter on "New Orleans and Louisiana" esp. pp. 46ff.

The above book is from 1976, I think. But in a later collection, edited by
J.L. Dillard, called "Perspectives on American English" (1980), there is an
article by someone (not Dillard) which goes into more detail on that
particular [@I] vowel and the commercial contacts between NYC and NO.
Unfortunately, I never actually read this article (some faculty member had
the book checked out -- 12 month loan).

DEj

P.S. Regarding the theory that NYC was rhotic originally and became
non-rhotic under New England influence: so Wolfram/Schilling-Estes got it
from Downes, but does anyone know where Downes got it from?

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Thu Nov 11 01:56:29 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:56:29 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries
In-Reply-To: <38298E9E.C81398BC@bcomp.metro-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.205629.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Daniel Long wrote:
>I am afraid I didn't understand what you meant by "professional glossary".
>Maybe others did, but perhaps it would increase responses if you gave a
>little example.  Does this mean a glossary of terms that only
>archaeologists (etc.) use?
>One more suggestion:  If you want responses to an academic query, put
>something like "Flat-headed" or "Baptists" or "Cheese curds" in the subject
>line.

Good suggestions, Danny. Thanks.

I gather that this topic is of little interest to anyone else -- I'll
drop it -- but be happy to respond to private queries.

Bethany, harmless drudge wannabe


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 02:08:20 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:08:20 EST
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.210820.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bethany writes:

>>Do you have pub info?<<

Corrected full information:
M.H. Abrams. A Glossary of Literary Terms. 7th edition. Harcourt Brace, 1998.
ISBN: 015505452X

>>(So a glossary CAN be a work of art? So far my criteria for excellence
have been completeness, accuracy, and relevance.)<<

It's complete, though not exhaustive; accurate not only in connotation but in
denotation; relevant to classical and contemporary literary scholarship and
criticism. Primarily concerned with English-language literature. Abrams is a
great literary historian and critic himself, and is of course the chief
editor of the Norton Anthology of English Literature. Many of his entries
are, I think, works of art as well as science. - Allan Metcalf


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Nov 11 02:04:21 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 18:04:21 -0800
Subject: Writing question -Reply
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.180421.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Elizabeth Gregory wrote:
>
> In terms of typography, Colin Wheildon has done several studies on the effect of all-capitals versus capitals-and-lower-case (among many other variables, like serif versus sans-serif type, reversed type on a dark background, etc.) on readability and comprehension.
>
> He reports his findings in _Type and Layout_ (1996, Strathmoor Press).
>
> I'm not aware of similar research done for other media, such as computer screens, etc., or for handwriting.
>
> A quick synthesis of the theory of type, design, and readability I've read:
>
> For passages of text (as opposed to headings or headlines), anything that makes letters look more different from each other aids readability, by allowing words to be read more quickly and easily.
>
> In all-caps, all the letters are basically the same shape (a large square), so an important means of differentiation is lost. Each letter must be recognized individually, so reading becomes slower and more tedious.
>

Thanks very much, Elizabeth.  I'll take a look.

One of the points I'd like to make and back up with research is the
capitalization of words which don't require it.  Admittedly, English has vague
capitalization rules when it comes to software interfaces, but people
(especially those whose English is not native) tend to capitalize everything but
conjunctions and pronouns.  I maintain that this makes for a user interface
which is more difficult to read.

This may be a function of what meaning English readers normally assign to a
capitalized word.  At least this is my belief, based on my own reaction.  I stop
at a capitalized word because I expect it to be less familiar or require more
processing, like a place name, or the name of a person.

Andrea


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 02:46:14 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:46:14 EST
Subject: research on "like"?
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.214614.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/10/1999 10:30:34 PM, dmilstein at WELLESLEY.EDU writes:

<< Can anyone suggest references or research about the use of the word
"like"? >>

yes


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Thu Nov 11 04:13:12 1999
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:13:12 -0800
Subject: research on "like"?
In-Reply-To: <fc.006640d80038ba57006640d80038ba57.38bb5e@FirstClass.wellesley.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.201312.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A former professor of mine was doing research, I believe, on the meaning of
like for "It was, like, cool." If you are interested, I can forward your
e-mail.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

------Original Message-----
-From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
-
-Can anyone suggest references or research about the use of the word "like"?
-
-Like, thanks!
-Debbie


From dmilstein at WELLESLEY.EDU  Thu Nov 11 04:27:25 1999
From: dmilstein at WELLESLEY.EDU (Deborah F. Milstein)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:27:25 -0500
Subject: research on "like"?
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLADGECHFGAAAKHDNEENMCIAA.gogaku@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.232725.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, do forward my message, please.


From benaaron at CC.HELSINKI.FI  Thu Nov 11 11:10:25 1999
From: benaaron at CC.HELSINKI.FI (Diana Ben-Aaron)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:10:25 +0200
Subject: CAPITALS, glossaries, "like"
In-Reply-To: <199911110504.HAA09263@post.it.helsinki.fi>
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.131025.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Concatenating replies to save header space; sorry if it inconveniences
anyone.

1. CAPITAL LETTERS.  Everything that has been said so far jibes with what
I've heard. Two devil's advocate questions:

a) If capital letters are harder to read, why was the old typewriter font
called Orator, designed for typing speeches in big letters, an all-caps
font?  OK, there were large caps and small caps, but they were all caps.

b) If letters without ascenders and descenders are harder to read, how has
e.g. the Cyrillic alphabet survived without significant modification?
One of the reasons I've had a hard time learning to read Russian, Hebrew,
Chinese, etc. is that these require making fine discriminations about
features in the interior of a character, rather than just recognizing the
overall shape of a word.

2. GLOSSARIES.  Some volumes that I have liked are: the Oxford Dictionary
of Literary Terms (very spotty coverage, but good as far as it goes),
the Larousse Mathematical Dictionary, and Barron's Dictionary of Computer
Terms (from the 1980s, pocket sized and bound in green vinyl).  There is a
book called Understanding Wall Street that has an excellent brief
financial glossary in the back.

3. "LIKE."  Pragmatic particles and discourse particles are studied mainly
in the subfields of linguistics called pragmatics and conversation
analysis.  My supervisor here, Jan-Ola ?stman, wrote an early monograph on
"you know" (You Know: A Discourse-Functional Approach, Benjamins 1981),
and a great deal of research has been done since then. To find the latest
work on "like," I suggest you look in linguistics bibliographies using the
search terms "pragmatic particles" and "discourse particles."

Diana ben-Aaron
University of Helsinki


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 05:18:32 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:18:32 EST
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.001832.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A number of studies in reading research emphasize the importance of visual
perception and visual discrimination.  At the earliest stages of reading
(readiness),  children are taught these skills through recognition of the
shapes of words (configuration clues).  Only lowercase letters are used, for
they have the most distinguishable shapes, for example, curly tails (g's),
ascending and descending lines,  and circles.  The ability to recognize these
patterns promotes rapid word recognition, or quick perception,  and visual
dicrimination among beginning and mature readers, both of whom employ some
form of perception and discrimination as  reading strategies.   When all caps
are used, however, visual perception is impeded, for most of these
distinguishing characteristics are lost, and so, too, is the ability to
readily differentiate one letter from another (again, visual discrimination).
  In essence,  in passages with all caps, everything is salient!  There is no
background.

Since perception is a term borrowed from psychology, you might check not only
reading research on visual perception and discrimination but also figure
ground studies.
                                PAT


From dmilstein at WELLESLEY.EDU  Thu Nov 11 02:16:42 1999
From: dmilstein at WELLESLEY.EDU (Deborah F. Milstein)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:16:42 -0500
Subject: research on "like"?
Message-ID: <WED.10.NOV.1999.211642.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can anyone suggest references or research about the use of the word "like"?

Like, thanks!
Debbie


From simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM  Thu Nov 11 13:08:23 1999
From: simon at HOME2.MYSOLUTION.COM (beth lee simon)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:08:23 -0500
Subject: research on "like"?
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.080823.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Try DARE, Volume III


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Thu Nov 11 13:27:08 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 05:27:08 -0800
Subject: Query: AAVE, Bidialectualism
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.052708.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This query came into the ADS web site. Please respond directly to the user, not to
me.


Sir, My name is Kathleen Jones. I am currently beginning work on my
dissertation in Adult Education at UGA. My work involves the creation of a
classroom environment conducive to the instuction in bidilectualism for
African American adults experiencing difficulty in the work world due to
their use of AAVE.
    I have taught high school English for 15 years in an inner-city Augusta
high school with a student body that is 85% African American. I fully
recognize the fact that many of our graduates end up in developmental English
classes when they enter 4 year institutions or technical institutions. They
leave us unprepared,....but not from lack of exposure to SAE.
     I also instruct in English 101 and 191 night classes at a local
technical school. The use of AAVE also creates difficulties in written work
in these classes. These students have little concept of bidialectualism....
     I understand that identify issues, power dynamics, and several other
issues are involved here. I am seeking direction into material that speaks to
these issues. I have read Gee, some Baugh, Collins, hooks, and many others.
Still feel that there is a void in my research.
     Suggestions, criticism, reflections...everything and anything you can
throw my way would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you.

Kathleen Jones
KJones1311 at aol.com


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Thu Nov 11 13:59:23 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:59:23 -0600
Subject: CAPITALS,
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.075923.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: Diana Ben-Aaron <benaaron at CC.HELSINKI.FI>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 5:10 AM
Subject: CAPITALS, glossaries, "like"


Concatenating replies to save header space; sorry if it inconveniences
anyone.

1. CAPITAL LETTERS.  Everything that has been said so far jibes with what
I've heard. Two devil's advocate questions:

a) If capital letters are harder to read, why was the old typewriter font
called Orator, designed for typing speeches in big letters, an all-caps
font?  OK, there were large caps and small caps, but they were all caps.

b) If letters without ascenders and descenders are harder to read, how has
e.g. the Cyrillic alphabet survived without significant modification?
One of the reasons I've had a hard time learning to read Russian, Hebrew,
Chinese, etc. is that these require making fine discriminations about
features in the interior of a character, rather than just recognizing the
overall shape of a word.

I've never worked with Chinese; however, I suspect that religion
had much to do with preserving both the Hebrew and Russian
alphabets with minimal change.  For real fun in Russian, have you
tried tackling Russian handwriting?  As for ORATOR, perhaps it
served the function in speaking that "qwerty" did in typing.  ;{)  Scott


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 14:32:09 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:32:09 EST
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request (correction)
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.093209.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<< accurate not only in connotation but in denotation >>

um, I meant, of course,

accurate not only in denotation but in connotation

- Allan Metcalf


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Thu Nov 11 16:26:28 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:26:28 -0700
Subject: Writing question, "the wife"
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.092628.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>Thanks very much, Elizabeth.  I'll take a look.
>
>One of the points I'd like to make and back up with research is the
>capitalization of words which don't require it.  Admittedly, English has
vague
>capitalization rules when it comes to software interfaces, but people
>(especially those whose English is not native) tend to capitalize
everything but
>conjunctions and pronouns.  I maintain that this makes for a user interface
>which is more difficult to read.
>
>This may be a function of what meaning English readers normally assign to a
>capitalized word.  At least this is my belief, based on my own reaction.  I
stop
>at a capitalized word because I expect it to be less familiar or require
more
>processing, like a place name, or the name of a person.
>
>Andrea

I just had an interesting site forwarded to me concerning capitalization. In
it I found the sentence, "Can there be a more lovely place in the Whole
World?" The speaker was talking about Wisconsin. So...does the
capitalization emphasize Wisconsin or the world, or is it just a mistake?

Also, growing up in Wisconsin I never encountered "the wife" much (or I just
don't remember), but I noticed this site referred to "the wife" several
times. In fact, it never says "my wife." During the "the" discussion, I had
never considered it as a Wisconsin peculiarity, but it appears I was wrong.

Just in case anyone is interested in checking out the grammar of a
Wisconsinite, the site is http://belle.pcpros.net/~grandma/wisconsin.html

Amy


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 16:39:52 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:39:52 EST
Subject: Research on "like"?
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.113952.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<<Try DARE, Volume III>>

And check the back issues of AMERICAN SPEECH


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Thu Nov 11 18:49:44 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:49:44 -0800
Subject: Etymology of "Rx"
In-Reply-To: <0.44582c1e.255c5f3e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.104944.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This hardly sets the record straight, but I have always heard that it is
an abbreviation for some form the Latin verb recipio -ere. The "R" is
understandable and the "x" is a medieval Latin ligature for a combination
of letters which forms the abbreviation "Rx". The "x" sign probably
doesn't represent an "x" since Latin only uses an "x" to represent the
Greek letter "ksi" in Greek loan words.
I also doubt the bit about Juppiter since the Roman god of medicine was
Aesculapius (from Greek Asklepios), and one would think that it would be
him who would be invoked to bless medicine (him, or perhaps Apollo Medicus
(cf. Latte. Roemische Religionsgeschichte).
I can probably provide a less speculative answer tomorrow when I get back
to campus.

There are a number of examples of medieval letters, or forms of letters
have been misinterpreted in modern times, the most common being "Ye olde
..." where the Y represents the obsolete (in English anyway) character the
thorn (="th"). I remember hearing or reading somewhere that French plurals
ending in -x go back to the fact that in old French handwriting the final
-s had the shape of something like an -x and that it is now just
orthographic convention to write -x for -s--but someone on this list MUST
no more about French than I do, and if I'm completely off base, I hope
they will set me straight.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu



On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 MARYPROTO at AOL.COM wrote:

> I edit a newsletter called Copy Editor, and one of our columnists has
> submitted an article in which he writes:
>
> "What about the origin of 'Rx'? It may have been an abbreviation of the Latin
> _recipe,_ meaning 'take,' or a representation of the sign for Jupiter, which
> 'Rx' vaguely resembles. The sign on ancient prescriptions invoked the deity's
> blessing on the medicine."
>
> Every dictionary I've checked gives only the Latin "recipe" in the etymology
> of "Rx" (if the dictionary lists "Rx" at all). I told the writer, who then
> faxed me an article from FDA Consumer Magazine, which says:
>
> "Where does the 'Rx' for 'prescriptions' come from? Its origins are given
> variously as an abbreviation of the Latin word 'recipe,' meaning 'take,' or
> as a representation of the astrological sign of Jupiter [SIGN HERE]. This
> sign was placed on ancient prescriptions to invoke that deity's blessing on
> the medicine to help the person get well. More recently, the cross at the end
> of the 'R' has been explained as a substitute period."
>
> I'm suspicious of the Jupiter connection, not only because of the source of
> the information but also because the planet's sign looks nothing like "Rx."
> Can anybody set the record straight for me? Many thanks.
>
> Mary Beth Protomastro
> Editor and Publisher
> Copy Editor: Language News for the Publishing Profession
> marybeth at copyeditor.com or maryproto at aol.com
> http://www.copyeditor.com
>


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Thu Nov 11 17:22:25 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:22:25 -0500
Subject: like
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.122225.0500.>

I know I have lots of things on "like", but this is the only one that
shows up on a search of "like" in my personal bibliographical database.

Adams, Michael.  About "Like" in Berks County, Pennsylvania.  American
Speech 68:4.439-40.

But...
other places to look are:
- articles on indirect quotation--I know Adrienne Lehrer's done a few,
but I don't know if she specifically discusses "like" ("She was
like...");  For some reason I think Geofrey Nunberg did an article on
this, but I don't seem to own it.
- articles/books on discourse particles, such as Deborah Schiffrin's
book _Discourse Markers_ and Lawrence Schourup's book (dissertation?),
whose title I don't have off-hand.

I had a seminar on discourse particles in grad school, and we talked
about "like" a lot...

Lynne


--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From MARYPROTO at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 18:04:46 1999
From: MARYPROTO at AOL.COM (MARYPROTO at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:04:46 EST
Subject: Etymology of "Rx"
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.130446.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I edit a newsletter called Copy Editor, and one of our columnists has
submitted an article in which he writes:

"What about the origin of 'Rx'? It may have been an abbreviation of the Latin
_recipe,_ meaning 'take,' or a representation of the sign for Jupiter, which
'Rx' vaguely resembles. The sign on ancient prescriptions invoked the deity's
blessing on the medicine."

Every dictionary I've checked gives only the Latin "recipe" in the etymology
of "Rx" (if the dictionary lists "Rx" at all). I told the writer, who then
faxed me an article from FDA Consumer Magazine, which says:

"Where does the 'Rx' for 'prescriptions' come from? Its origins are given
variously as an abbreviation of the Latin word 'recipe,' meaning 'take,' or
as a representation of the astrological sign of Jupiter [SIGN HERE]. This
sign was placed on ancient prescriptions to invoke that deity's blessing on
the medicine to help the person get well. More recently, the cross at the end
of the 'R' has been explained as a substitute period."

I'm suspicious of the Jupiter connection, not only because of the source of
the information but also because the planet's sign looks nothing like "Rx."
Can anybody set the record straight for me? Many thanks.

Mary Beth Protomastro
Editor and Publisher
Copy Editor: Language News for the Publishing Profession
marybeth at copyeditor.com or maryproto at aol.com
http://www.copyeditor.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 11 19:20:46 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:20:46 -0500
Subject: like
In-Reply-To: <382AFB51.D577AFB8@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.142046.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's some citations of articles about _like_ (I apologize if any of
these have already been posted here):

Underhill, "_Like_ is, Like, Focus," American Speech 63 (1988): 234-46.

Blyth et al., "I'm Like, 'Say What?!': A New Quotative in American Oral
Narrative," American Speech 65 (1990): 215-27.

Ferrara & Bell, "Sociolinguistic Variation and Discourse Function of
Constructed Dialogue Introducers: The Case of _be_ + _like_," American
Speech 70: 265-90.

Gee, this American Speech looks like a pretty interesting journal!


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Nov 11 18:54:46 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 10:54:46 -0800
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.105446.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"James E. Clapp" wrote:
>
>
> When words that are not normally capitalized are capitalized it slows me down
> because in reading my mind gives those words a little extra stress.  (Then
> often they slow me down more because I get annoyed that I was duped into
> giving special stress to words that really didn't need it, and annoyed that
> conventional capitalization rules readers rely upon [capitalization signifies
> proper noun] are being disregarded, and annoyed at the affectation [it's like
> Cosmo-style overuse of italics], and so on; but that's probably just me.)
>

Not just you, I assure you.  One of the reasons I want to have some research to
back up my claim is that I want to get folks in the computer industry, including
the tech writers, to stop capitalizing a word just because it might be a
computer term or command somewhere somehow.  Tech writing and user interfaces
should not be special in this regard, and I believe the excess capitalization
makes for an unfriendly interface.  It certainly bugs me.

> I'm sure the caps are often thrown in not to give special emphasis but just
> because the writer has a vague feeling that important words, especially nouns,
> are supposed to be capitalized.  I suspect that much capitalization of this
> sort is really quite unconscious.

<rantlet>
And born of ignorance.  English isn't German.  Heck, these days, German isn't
German.
</rantlet>

>
> Come to think of it, another thing that slows me down is writing with no caps.
> When i see writing in which words or names or abbreviations that would
> conventionally be capitalized are not--which seldom occurs in the ads list--i
> find it quite distracting.  This obviously has nothing to do with the inherent
> features of the I-shape as distinguished from the i-shape: Much of what makes
> text readable or not is just a question of whether the conventions that people
> are accustomed to from a lifetime of reading are followed.  Anything that
> departs from the convention tends to cause a little hiccup.

not an e.e.cummings fan, eh?

>
> Of course, change can occur, and new conventions can replace old.  See, e.g.,
> the free and frequent capitalization in the Declaration of Independence and
> the capitalization of virtually all nouns in the Constitution of the United
> States.
>

But Those Words were Important, Weren't They?

(No kidding, that's the way many messages are capitalized when I get them.)

Andrea


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 11 18:48:17 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:48:17 -0400
Subject: born-again (was Christian suggestion)
In-Reply-To: <19991110.171320.13758.0.pskuhlman@juno.com>
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.144817.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>     True story.  A friend of mine who was a social worker in Texas
>overheard this interchange between a Texan client and a newly arrived
>social worker from New York.  The client says:  "Are you lost or are you
>found?"  The truly puzzled newcomer to the land of born-again Christians
>replied without missing a beat:  "I'm from New York."
>     I'm from New York via northern Illinois, so I have no idea whether
>lost and found are common terms for unsaved and saved, but I think it's a
>great story.  It sounds apocryphal, but my friend swears on the Bible
>that it's true.
>
>Patricia Kuhlman
>Brooklyn, NY
>pskuhlman at juno.com

Well, even non-Christians might be familiar with the minimal pair from the
first stanza of "Amazing Grace":

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me;
I once was lost, but now I'm found,   <--
Was blind, but now I see.


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Thu Nov 11 19:49:11 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:49:11 -0700
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.124911.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ouch, to the tech writers! As a technical writer myself, I often find it
frustrating that software developers don't know or care about proper
capitalization conventions. I worked for one software company that allowed
me to go to the developers with my corrections. The company for which I
currently work does not take suggestions from technical writers. And, of
course, once they do something wrong once, it has to remain incorrect for
consistency's sake. Frustrating, indeed. Especially when I am forced to use
their mistakes in my writing.

As a general rule, program titles (or dialog box titles) should be
capitalized as book titles ... all word capitalized except for prepositions
and conjunctions (but never with CAPS LOCK!). Field names are a gray area.
Microsoft capitalizes only the first letter of a word or phrase. Other
companies like to capitalize field names as they would program titles.
Whatever the company decides, the convention must be carried over into the
documentation. For all other text, I always follow the rules any dope can
learn in high school English.

In my experience, most technical writers are not actively involved in the
decisions of these conventions. Some may be poor editors. In any case, I
certainly agree with Andrea that software developers need to agree to a
standard (preferably Standard English rules) and stick with it. This is
necessary for a quality intuitive user interface (clarity, accuracy, etc.).
I would love to be more involved in presentation issues that involve words.
However, until programmers understand that tech writers' skills are just as
important as theirs, it probably won't happen.

Amy

P.S. Some tech writers are computer science graduates, rather than English
graduates. Without trying to step on anyone's toes, a company will usually
benefit more with an English expert than a computer expert as a tech writer.
Are the reasons as obvious to you as they are to me?

-----Original Message-----
From: A. Vine <avine at ENG.SUN.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, November 11, 1999 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: Writing question


>"James E. Clapp" wrote:
>>
>>
>> When words that are not normally capitalized are capitalized it slows me
down
>> because in reading my mind gives those words a little extra stress.
(Then
>> often they slow me down more because I get annoyed that I was duped into
>> giving special stress to words that really didn't need it, and annoyed
that
>> conventional capitalization rules readers rely upon [capitalization
signifies
>> proper noun] are being disregarded, and annoyed at the affectation [it's
like
>> Cosmo-style overuse of italics], and so on; but that's probably just me.)
>>
>
>Not just you, I assure you.  One of the reasons I want to have some
research to
>back up my claim is that I want to get folks in the computer industry,
including
>the tech writers, to stop capitalizing a word just because it might be a
>computer term or command somewhere somehow.  Tech writing and user
interfaces
>should not be special in this regard, and I believe the excess
capitalization
>makes for an unfriendly interface.  It certainly bugs me.
>
>> I'm sure the caps are often thrown in not to give special emphasis but
just
>> because the writer has a vague feeling that important words, especially
nouns,
>> are supposed to be capitalized.  I suspect that much capitalization of
this
>> sort is really quite unconscious.
>
><rantlet>
>And born of ignorance.  English isn't German.  Heck, these days, German
isn't
>German.
></rantlet>
>
>>
>> Come to think of it, another thing that slows me down is writing with no
caps.
>> When i see writing in which words or names or abbreviations that would
>> conventionally be capitalized are not--which seldom occurs in the ads
list--i
>> find it quite distracting.  This obviously has nothing to do with the
inherent
>> features of the I-shape as distinguished from the i-shape: Much of what
makes
>> text readable or not is just a question of whether the conventions that
people
>> are accustomed to from a lifetime of reading are followed.  Anything that
>> departs from the convention tends to cause a little hiccup.
>
>not an e.e.cummings fan, eh?
>
>>
>> Of course, change can occur, and new conventions can replace old.  See,
e.g.,
>> the free and frequent capitalization in the Declaration of Independence
and
>> the capitalization of virtually all nouns in the Constitution of the
United
>> States.
>>
>
>But Those Words were Important, Weren't They?
>
>(No kidding, that's the way many messages are capitalized when I get them.)
>
>Andrea


From jeclapp at WANS.NET  Thu Nov 11 18:24:36 1999
From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:24:36 -0500
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.132436.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Amy Speed wrote:
> >
> >One of the points I'd like to make and back up with research is the
> >capitalization of words which don't require it. . . .
> >
> >Andrea
>
> I just had an interesting site forwarded to me concerning capitalization. In
> it I found the sentence, "Can there be a more lovely place in the Whole
> World?"

The effect of initial caps on readability is an entirely separate question
from the effect of writing entirely in caps.

As Amy's example demonstrates, people often use initial caps for emphasis; it
seems to give words Importance.  (Which would you assume gets paid more: the
president and chief operating officer or the President and Chief Operating
Officer?)  We often see quotation marks used for the same purpose.  Not to
mention italics, bold, and making specific words all caps.

When words that are not normally capitalized are capitalized it slows me down
because in reading my mind gives those words a little extra stress.  (Then
often they slow me down more because I get annoyed that I was duped into
giving special stress to words that really didn't need it, and annoyed that
conventional capitalization rules readers rely upon [capitalization signifies
proper noun] are being disregarded, and annoyed at the affectation [it's like
Cosmo-style overuse of italics], and so on; but that's probably just me.)

I'm sure the caps are often thrown in not to give special emphasis but just
because the writer has a vague feeling that important words, especially nouns,
are supposed to be capitalized.  I suspect that much capitalization of this
sort is really quite unconscious.

In any case, speaking at least for myself, it definitely does slow down
reading, but for different reasons from all caps, which also slows down
reading.

Come to think of it, another thing that slows me down is writing with no caps.
When i see writing in which words or names or abbreviations that would
conventionally be capitalized are not--which seldom occurs in the ads list--i
find it quite distracting.  This obviously has nothing to do with the inherent
features of the I-shape as distinguished from the i-shape: Much of what makes
text readable or not is just a question of whether the conventions that people
are accustomed to from a lifetime of reading are followed.  Anything that
departs from the convention tends to cause a little hiccup.

Of course, change can occur, and new conventions can replace old.  See, e.g.,
the free and frequent capitalization in the Declaration of Independence and
the capitalization of virtually all nouns in the Constitution of the United
States.

James E. Clapp


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 18:22:03 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 13:22:03 EST
Subject: Etymology of "Rx"
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.132203.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I thought "Rx" was the abbreviation for "rupies"?


From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Thu Nov 11 19:49:26 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 14:49:26 -0500
Subject: some queries
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.144926.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

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From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Thu Nov 11 20:29:15 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:29:15 -0500
Subject: like
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911111407300.3488-100000@minerva.cis.yale.e du>
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.152915.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And another from _American Speech_, 66 (1991):  S. Romaine and D. Lange,
"The Use of 'Like' as a Marker of Reported Speech and Thought: A Case of
Grammaticalization in Progress."

At 02:20 PM 11/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Here's some citations of articles about _like_ (I apologize if any of
>these have already been posted here):
>
>Underhill, "_Like_ is, Like, Focus," American Speech 63 (1988): 234-46.
>
>Blyth et al., "I'm Like, 'Say What?!': A New Quotative in American Oral
>Narrative," American Speech 65 (1990): 215-27.
>
>Ferrara & Bell, "Sociolinguistic Variation and Discourse Function of
>Constructed Dialogue Introducers: The Case of _be_ + _like_," American
>Speech 70: 265-90.
>
>Gee, this American Speech looks like a pretty interesting journal!
>
>
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
>Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
>Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From hcole at WELLESLEY.EDU  Thu Nov 11 15:51:24 1999
From: hcole at WELLESLEY.EDU (Wellesley Office)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:51:24 +0000
Subject: Maine accent/dialect
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.155124.0000.>

Hello,
I am a college senior currently involved in a research paper for my
class (Multilingual America).  I am looking for information on Maine
accents/Maine dialect (I am from Maine myself), any book suggestions,
resources?  Ideas?  Linguistic tales?

Thanks,
Rachel Horton


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Thu Nov 11 21:19:16 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:19:16 -0500
Subject: some queries
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19991111144744.00695b24@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.161916.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Be aware, though, that some of the works cited below on AppEng are not
scholarly and may in fact only perpetuate myths and stereotypes about the
dialect.  I'm thinking specifically about Dial and Williams; I don't know
about Kephart and Higgs & Manning, but I'd be suspicious.  Literary dialect
has to be viewed carefully too, of course, to distinguish authentic
representations from eye-dialect or stereotyped forms (which could, of
course, be legitimately studied in their own right).  (Sorry, Stephanie; I
don't have your e-dress, or I'd respond personally!)

At 02:49 PM 11/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I've been doing work on literary dialect and happen to have two great
>articles on Maine dialect. used in the works of George Savary Wasson, both
>by Jacob Bennett.
>Bennett, Jacob.  "George Savary Wasson and the Dialect of Kittery
>Point         Maine." American Speech 49 (1974): 54-66.
>
>---.  "George Savary Wasson's Approach to Dialect Writing." American
>Speech  54 (1979): 90-101.
>
>There are several articles in American Speech on Appalachian dialect.
>Donna Christian and Walt Wolfram would be good key names to search under.
>Also see
>
>Chase, Richard, comp.  American Folk Tales and Songs and other Examples
>of     English-American Traditions as Preserved in the Appalachian
>Mountains       and Elsewhere in the United States. New York: New
>American, 1956.
>
>Dial, Wylene P.  "The Dialect of the Appalachian People." West
>Virginia        History 30 (1969): 463-71.
>
>Dillard, J. L. All-American English.  New York: Random, 1975.
>
>Higgs, Robert J., and Ambrose N. Manning, eds. Voices from the Hills.
>New  York: Ungar, 1975.
>
>Kephart, Horace. Our Southern Highlanders. New York: Macmillan, 1922.
>
>Williams, Cratis.  "Appalachian Speech."  North Carolina Historical Review
>55        (1978): 174-79.
>
>---.  Southern Mountain Speech.  Berea: Berea College P., 1992.
>
>Wolfram, Walt.  Dialects and American English. Englewood Cliffs:
>Prentice,     1991.
>
>I've got more on Appalachian if you need it, but nothing on jargon.
>
>At 11:30 AM 11/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >        Hi - I'd like to beg for a little help.  I have students working on
> >1) Maine English, and in general the linguistic history of Maine, 2)
> >Appalachian English, 3) jargons in American English (she got interested in
> >that _Smithsonian_ account of the military use of Native American words as
> >a secret language in World War II).  I know a little about these things,
> >but I'm wondering whether subscribers to this list might have bibliographic
> >suggestions to make.  Off the top of your head only!  I don't want to ask
> >anyone to rummage through files or libraries, just, if possible, to take a
> >second and send me the obvious things that you know and I don't!
> >        Thanks in advance, Larry Rosenwald
> > </blockquote></x-html>
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From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Thu Nov 11 21:46:53 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:46:53 -0500
Subject: Cold Mountain
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.164653.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm trying to figure out how Charles Frazier meant for his character Ada
Monroe's name to be pronounced. For those who haven't read this book, she
grew up in Charleston, South Carolina and later moved with her minister
father to Cold Mountain in western North Carolina. The following passage
takes place in NC. I'll transcribe the bit which has me a little baffled
and hope someone can help me.

-Hey, Miss Ada Monroe, a voice called softly.
        Both names were pronounced in the ways that her father had hated. He had
never tired of setting people right on the matter: Broad initial A in Ada;
accented second syllable in Monroe, he would say. But over the summer, Ada
had given up trying to enforce her name against everyone's natural leaning,
and she was learning to be the Ada Monroe that the voice called. Long A,
heavy Mon.

I understand the accent on 'roe' and 'Mon,' but this broad A is confusing.
And does the 'Long A" (sorry for the caps) mean [e]? I'm hoping some
natives from the respective regions can shed light on this.

Thanks


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Thu Nov 11 22:04:45 1999
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:04:45 -0600
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.160445.0600.>

Amy Speed wrote:

>P.S. Some tech writers are computer science graduates, rather than >English graduates. Without trying to step on anyone's toes, a company >will usually benefit more with an English expert than a computer expert >as a tech writer. Are the reasons as obvious to you as they are to me?

Since I don't know which reasons you see as obvious, let me put one out
there for people to stomp on:

When computer experts write about computers, they tend to assume that
their audience shares their knowledge of computers.  They tend to
conclude that there is something wrong with the intelligence of anyone
who can't understand their technicalities, rather than providing
information the non-expert reader needs and lacks.  An English expert is
much more likely to consider the needs of the reader rather than the
technical but irrelevant implications of the computer problem as ding an
sich.

In my experience, almost every original equipment manual in the computer
world suffers from the same flaw.  When you're trying to solve a
problem, the manual is useful only ex post facto.   The only people who
can understand the manual are those who already know how to do what the
manual says it's trying to explain.  I thought that manuals would best
serve their purpose if a neophyte could understand them.  Unfortunately,
the only hope there is of understanding most manuals is through solving
problems by some means other than reference to the manual.

"RTFM" doesn't make sense when the one who wrote the manual can't write
in terms a newcomer can understand.

I wouldn't be happy if English majors with no training in computers
tried to create an operating system I would have to use on my computer.
Why should I be forced to accept the impenetrable muddles written by
computer geniuses with no knowledge of writing?

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!


From jeclapp at WANS.NET  Thu Nov 11 22:07:02 1999
From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:07:02 -0500
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.170702.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A. Vine wrote:
>
> One of the reasons I want to have some research to back up my claim
> is that I want to get folks in the computer industry, including the
> tech writers, to stop capitalizing a word just because it might be a
> computer term or command somewhere somehow.  Tech writing and user
> interfaces should not be special in this regard, and I believe the
> excess capitalization makes for an unfriendly interface.

Of course manuals and instructions and whatnot should be written in
standard English using standard English conventions.  Conventions
enhance readability and comprehensibility.  (Which is not the whole
point of poetry--case in point: e.e.cummings--but is the whole point of
a manual).

Finding research to prove this is likely to be difficult, though; it's
too basic, too obvious.  Why do they use standard spellings like
"through" and different spellings for "to" and "two"?  Why do they begin
sentences with capital letters and end them with periods?  Why do they
leave spaces between the words?  Why do they write from left to right?
There are plenty of languages that do not follow one or more of these
conventions, but in English we do so--not because research shows that
readers of English find that these conventions enhance readability,
and certainly not because these particular conventions are inherently
more readable--but simply because that's English!  We do it because this
is how written English has developed, and therefore it is what people
expect to see and are comfortable with and not confused by.  Other
languages have *their* conventions, and people who want to be easily
understood in those languages follow *those* conventions.

Now, common words used as terms of art or names of features can pose a
particular problem, and in a technical context there is something to be
said for flagging them in some consistent way.  For example, a neophyte
reading "Go to the file open dialog box and press home and then enter"
could be very confused.  (Go to the file, open the dialog box? Open the
dialog box and the press? The press home? Press homeward? Enter the box?
Enter the home?)  So some device to flag the names is desirable, and I
myself would be inclined to write (in an e-mail, say) "Go to the File
Open dialog box and press Home and then Enter."

But this solution breaks down if the capitalization is not carefully
restricted to specific named terms or features, and even then it is
problematic because in English capitalization serves other purposes as
well.  So a typographic feature such as a distinctive typeface is
obviously a more effective solution.

This topic interests me in part because lawyers are similarly prone to
capitalization:  ". . . the Defendant breached the Contract."  Sometimes
this serves a purpose: Often a lengthy contract begins with a list of
defined terms, each of which is capitalized both in the list of
definitions and then throughout the contract whenever it is being used
in its defined sense.  (For example, "the Insured" might be defined as
the party whose signature appears on the policy, but "insured" as verb
would not be capitalized.)  I don't have a serious problem with this if
done judiciously and with scrupulous consistency:  If the result is that
those words get a little pause and a little emphasis every time the
reader comes across one in a sentence, that is exactly as it should
be--a reminder that this is not just a word, but a term with a specific
definition for the purposes of the agreement.  Moreover, when a contract
has many such terms, this is about the least intrusive way to flag them:
Using quotation marks or bold print or all caps, as is sometimes done,
makes the reading much bumpier.

But the problem remains that convention requires certain words to be
capitalized for reasons that don't fit the scheme, and some lawyers tend
to capitalize randomly anyway.  So it's a device I would consider
employing only in very special situations and only with great care.

James E. Clapp


From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Thu Nov 11 21:59:38 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 16:59:38 -0500
Subject: some queries
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.165938.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

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From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Thu Nov 11 22:52:55 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 15:52:55 -0700
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.155255.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Right on! I couldn't have said it better myself. The advantage of an English
expert writing a manual as opposed to a computer expert is that we are
trained to write at a user's level (usually 6th grade reading level). We
have been trained in audience, grammar, and organization, the 5 Cs, etc.
Hey, an computer geek can tell you what Java script is ... but can they
explain it so you can understand it?

Amy

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, November 11, 1999 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: Writing question


>Amy Speed wrote:
>
>>P.S. Some tech writers are computer science graduates, rather than
>English graduates. Without trying to step on anyone's toes, a company >will
usually benefit more with an English expert than a computer expert >as a
tech writer. Are the reasons as obvious to you as they are to me?
>
>Since I don't know which reasons you see as obvious, let me put one out
>there for people to stomp on:
>
>When computer experts write about computers, they tend to assume that
>their audience shares their knowledge of computers.  They tend to
>conclude that there is something wrong with the intelligence of anyone
>who can't understand their technicalities, rather than providing
>information the non-expert reader needs and lacks.  An English expert is
>much more likely to consider the needs of the reader rather than the
>technical but irrelevant implications of the computer problem as ding an
>sich.
>
>In my experience, almost every original equipment manual in the computer
>world suffers from the same flaw.  When you're trying to solve a
>problem, the manual is useful only ex post facto.   The only people who
>can understand the manual are those who already know how to do what the
>manual says it's trying to explain.  I thought that manuals would best
>serve their purpose if a neophyte could understand them.  Unfortunately,
>the only hope there is of understanding most manuals is through solving
>problems by some means other than reference to the manual.
>
>"RTFM" doesn't make sense when the one who wrote the manual can't write
>in terms a newcomer can understand.
>
>I wouldn't be happy if English majors with no training in computers
>tried to create an operating system I would have to use on my computer.
>Why should I be forced to accept the impenetrable muddles written by
>computer geniuses with no knowledge of writing?
>
>-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
>PEACE !!!


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Nov 11 22:45:35 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:45:35 -0500
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Nov 1999 to 10 Nov 1999 (#1999-154)
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.174535.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs asks:

>>>>>
You don't keep whole beans in the freezer and grind them before each brewing?
<<<<<

Nope. There are grinders here at the office, but they grind a lot finer than the
coarse grind that the mavens and baristas tell me my French press wants.

>>>>>
Are you a member of ADS?
<<<<<

Yes... why, can I get a discount on coffee?

-- Mark

     See "Too Much Coffee Man" at http://tmcm.com/
ObDis: I don't write it or profit by it; I just think it's W E I R D !!!


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Thu Nov 11 22:53:29 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:53:29 -0500
Subject: Christian suggestion
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.175329.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I assure you, the meaning wasn't ambiguous for us!  Remember Jimmy Carter's
"lust in [his] heart"?  Add "burn with" in front of that.

At 09:44 PM 11/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 11/9/1999 7:08:58 PM Central Standard Time,
>greg at PULLIAM.ORG writes:
>
><<
>   >>
>s for the ambiguous (at least for me) quote, "It is better to marry than to
>burn," I have always wondered if the word burn is a reference to
>desire/passion or to hell's fire!  Maybe it is a double entendre, with a
>reference to both!   For some reason, every time I ask the question, I get an
>evasive response!
>                     PAT


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Thu Nov 11 23:34:57 1999
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:34:57 -0600
Subject: Cold Mountain
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.173457.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> -Hey, Miss Ada Monroe, a voice called softly.
>  Both names were pronounced in the ways that her father had hated. He had
> never tired of setting people right on the matter: Broad initial A in Ada;
> accented second syllable in Monroe, he would say. But over the summer, Ada
> had given up trying to enforce her name against everyone's natural leaning,
> and she was learning to be the Ada Monroe that the voice called. Long A,
> heavy Mon.
>
> I understand the accent on 'roe' and 'Mon,' but this broad A is confusing.

I assume that her father wanted her name to be pronounced ah-da monROE
but that it was regularly pronounced ay-da [eda] MONroe.

> And does the 'Long A" (sorry for the caps) mean [e]?

That's my guess -- the lay usage of "length" -- the one from elementary
school.

>I'm hoping some
> natives from the respective regions can shed light on this.

I'm not from either SC or NC (though many of my ancestors were).  I don't
think I've ever heard Ada pronounced ah-da.  Probably I have heard monROE
pronounced MONroe, though I've heard the former far more often.
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)
     Mississippian


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 11 23:37:23 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:37:23 EST
Subject: Cancun drinks, Mass customization
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.183723.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MASS CUSTOMIZATION

   "Mass customization" (of cars) is in today's Wall Street Journal, cited as a new buzz phrase.

--------------------------------------------------------
CANCUN DRINKS

   Greetings from Cancun.  I head home tomorrow.  There was no internet access at the archaeological sites of Tulum, Coba, Kabah, et al., nor did I run into any other teen singing sensations.
   The Ritz-Carlton was disappointing.  Here's the menu from its lobby lounge:

MARGARITAS--caribbean, peach, banana, strawberry, raspberry, mango, green, blue, golden, cadillas, Ritz-Carlton Margarita (Mandarine Napoleon).
   SIGNATURE MARTINIS
COSMPOLITAN--Absolut vodka, canberry juice, cointreau
VODKATINI--Stolichnaya vodka, dry vermouth
GOLDEN--Wiborowa vodka, mandarine napoleon
DIRTY MARTINI--Tanqueray gin, dry vermouth, olive brine
GIMLET--Gordon's gin, Rose's lime juice, lemon juice
TEQUINI--Porfidio silver tequila, dry vermouth

   This is from El Bar Andal here at the Kukulcan Plaza:

CAFE BARANDAL--vanilla ice cream, Baileys, Drambuie, coffe liquor
CAFE KUKULCAN--Grand Marnier, coffee liquor, whipping cream
CAFE IRLANDES--whiskey, coffee liquor, whipping cream
CAFE ESPANOL--brandy, coffee liquor, whipping cream
CAFE MAYA--Xtabentum, coffee liquor, brandy, whipping cream
CAFE VANDERMINT--chocolate, mint, coffee liquor
CAFE ITALIANO--Amaretto, coffee liquor, whipping cream
CAFE CAIBENO--rum, coffee liquor, whipping cream
CAFE BARANDAL II--sambuca, coffee liquor, brandy, chocolate ice cream
BRAIN CHILLER--chocolate, coffee, milk frappe
REINA ISABEL--whisky, orange liquor, carnation, syrup and frozen
SEX ON THE BAR--granadine, green mint, pineapple, grapefruit, orange juice
AFRICA--Kalhua, sweet anise, tequila
CAMALEON--white rum, orange liquor, orange juice
MARIR SONANDO--orange juice, 43 liquor, carnation, cinnamon and frozen
BRASIL--vodka, Cointreau, lemon, orange juice, granadine
MEDIAS DE SEDA--gin, carnation, granadine, white cocoa, cinnamon and frozen

   No further info on the Pepito and Sofia sandwich names.
   There was a sunshower here.  I couldn't find any good sunshower or Mexico City fog names.
   As they say in Cancun:
   Auf wiedersehn!
   Goodbye!


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 00:00:35 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 19:00:35 -0500
Subject: Cold Mountain
In-Reply-To: <199911112334.RAA06573@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.190035.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Natalie, by 'ah' do you mean [a] or [ae]?  I interpreted '"broad" to mean
the low front vowel, as in "Addie" (perhaps a diminutive of Ada?).
                                                         Beverly Flanigan

At 05:34 PM 11/11/99 -0600, you wrote:
> > -Hey, Miss Ada Monroe, a voice called softly.
> >  Both names were pronounced in the ways that her father had hated. He had
> > never tired of setting people right on the matter: Broad initial A in Ada;
> > accented second syllable in Monroe, he would say. But over the summer, Ada
> > had given up trying to enforce her name against everyone's natural leaning,
> > and she was learning to be the Ada Monroe that the voice called. Long A,
> > heavy Mon.
> >
> > I understand the accent on 'roe' and 'Mon,' but this broad A is confusing.
>
>I assume that her father wanted her name to be pronounced ah-da monROE
>but that it was regularly pronounced ay-da [eda] MONroe.
>
> > And does the 'Long A" (sorry for the caps) mean [e]?
>
>That's my guess -- the lay usage of "length" -- the one from elementary
>school.
>
> >I'm hoping some
> > natives from the respective regions can shed light on this.
>
>I'm not from either SC or NC (though many of my ancestors were).  I don't
>think I've ever heard Ada pronounced ah-da.  Probably I have heard monROE
>pronounced MONroe, though I've heard the former far more often.
>    --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)
>      Mississippian


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Fri Nov 12 00:24:47 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 18:24:47 -0600
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.182447.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> I wouldn't be happy if English majors with no training in computers
> tried to create an operating system I would have to use on my computer.
> Why should I be forced to accept the impenetrable muddles written by
> computer geniuses with no knowledge of writing?
>
> -- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
> PEACE !!!

You hit the nail on the head; I always prattle on that the best "how-to"
manuals are written by a naive writer with the expert assistance of
someone in the field.  A few months ago I was given a "Standard
Operating Procedure" on position classification to review.  My response
was that the information was accurate; however, I would strongly
recommended that a newly hired "special academic achievement"
trainee review the material, because the SOPs are written for beginners
to learn and full-performance to use for review; experts in the field have
little need of them in their special field.

Being a former computer specialist does not keep me from buying and
using the Dummy series outside my obsolete speciality.
Scott Catledge


From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 12 01:20:06 1999
From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:20:06 PST
Subject: Ada, Or Ardor
Message-ID: <THU.11.NOV.1999.172006.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>
>Natalie, by 'ah' do you mean [a] or [ae]?  I interpreted '"broad" to mean
>the low front vowel...

Beverly, by 'the low front vowel' do you mean [a] or [ae] ??!!

According to IPA, [a] is the lowest (most open) of the front vowels. And the
vowel chart used in LANE, PEAS, etc. agrees.

But perhaps the absence of [a] from most American dialects (and the
resultant fact that [ae] is the low-frontest vowel) has something to do with
the alternative conception, e.g. in Wolfram/Schilling-Estes:

[ae]    low front tense
[a]             low central

Maybe the point here is that since starting from [E] you can't go lower
without going back at the same time, there is no "corner" for a real "true"
low front vowel to occupy...

Dej

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From pds at VISI.COM  Fri Nov 12 07:36:25 1999
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 01:36:25 -0600
Subject: Writing question
In-Reply-To: <382B10F6.BF7AC290@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.013625.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Andrea Vine wrote (eliciting a good number of dittos):
>"James E. Clapp" wrote:
>>... and annoyed that
>> conventional capitalization rules readers rely upon [capitalization
signifies
>> proper noun] are being disregarded
>
>Not just you, I assure you.  One of the reasons I want to have some
research to
>back up my claim is that I want to get folks in the computer industry,
including
>the tech writers, to stop capitalizing a word just because it might be a
>computer term or command somewhere somehow.

Background for the uninitiated:  The rules of a programming language
typically specify a list of reserved words.  These are words programmers
should use only as specified in that language.  These words can be, for
example, commands, parts of commands, function names, or variable names
that the software that processes code written in that language will always
treat the same way.  Programmers who use reserved words for other purposes
do so at the risk of getting unwelcome or unexpected results.  It is very
common for programmers to CAPITALIZE reserved words as they occur in the
code they write.  You don't have to understand the following the see the
point:

        IF USED(cUseAlias)
                LOCAL nOldSelect
                nOldSelect = SELECT()
                SELECT (cUseAlias)
        ELSE
                RETURN ""
        ENDIF

The mixed-case words are defined by the programmer, the capitalized words
are defined by rules of the language.  Writing code this way aids other
programmers in making sense of the code, and aids the original programmer
in finding errors.

Now when it comes to writing discursive prose for an audience of
programmers on topics in programming in a particular language, it seems
unnecessarily fussy to complain about writers who observe the orthographic
conventions of that language, when snatches of code or even individual
terms are tucked into the discursive part of the writing.  When so many
ordinary English words double as reserved words, it seems only natural to
give your readers a clue as to when you are using a reserved word.  To be
sure, context will usually decide it, but not always.   So following the
programming language conventions is the safest course.  I can see no
advantage in substituting a sentence more in accord with standard English
capitalization for something like:

"You need to do some additional checking following the DO WHILE loop if you
want to limit the search to the structural index."
or
"When you SET EXACT to ON, things change."
or
"The code in each function could be run by SETting [sic] PROCEDURE TO
viewscript.prg and calling the appropriate function."

All this said, if Andrea's research ever gets done, and if it demonstrates
that special marking of reserved words used within discursive prose adds no
clarity, but only ugliness, I will change my tune.  But I'd bet against it.

And none of this is to deny that software manuals are, with very few
exceptions, so horribly written as to be of very little help.  But their
defects in mechanics (as my old Warriner's calls it) are not the problem.

[All examples from the December 1999 issue of FoxPro Advisor]


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From pds at VISI.COM  Fri Nov 12 07:41:27 1999
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 01:41:27 -0600
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.014127.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":

The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the Carleton College alumni
magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of high school girls from
SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of the article is "Moby Chick".


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From ansolds at MASSED.NET  Fri Nov 12 16:59:37 1999
From: ansolds at MASSED.NET (Anson Olds)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:59:37 -0800
Subject: Hoosier dialect
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.085937.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear List members:

    My father, a native of Southern Indiana, says he is collecting
"Hoosier-isms" -- phrases, words, and pronunciations typical of Indiana
speech.  Example: "little-ole-bitty" for very small.  I wondered if anyone
out there could recommend an intelligently written, yet not too technical,
book on this subject that I could send him for Christmas.  I realize that
what he calls "Hoosier-isms" may be Appalachian dialect elements, so a book
on that topic might work as well.
    I live in a rural area in New England with limited library resources, so
your suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Emily Olds
c/o ansolds at massed.net


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Fri Nov 12 14:28:15 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:28:15 -0700
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.072815.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>For example, a neophyte
>reading "Go to the file open dialog box and press home and then enter"
>could be very confused.  (Go to the file, open the dialog box? Open the
>dialog box and the press? The press home? Press homeward? Enter the box?
>Enter the home?)  So some device to flag the names is desirable, and I
>myself would be inclined to write (in an e-mail, say) "Go to the File
>Open dialog box and press Home and then Enter."
>


James brings up an interesting case here. While I would write,

| 1. Click File, then click Open. The Open dialog box displays. |
| 2. Press <Home>, then press <Enter>.                                |

the idea is that capitalization is used for clarification. If I were to
write, "Click file, then click open," I feel that could be even more
confusing than the unconventional capitalization. The screen clearly
displays "File" and "Open" as options, so I ought to be writing them as they
are displayed.

The keystroke example I used will vary from company to company. I used < >
because of the lack of options in my email. Some would use bold, italics,
all caps, etc. The most important thing is that the reader understands that
those are keystrokes.

Technical writing often takes conventional English writing rules and twists
them a little bit to fit the software, the company style, or whatnot. I was
mortified to learn that my department uses some punctuation incorrectly.
When I talked to my manager about correcting it, she said that's they way
it's done here, and we will have to continue to do it that way. Arrgghh!!
Talk about an English major's nightmare.

Amy


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 15:41:22 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:41:22 -0500
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.104122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ugh.  But yes, I've heard it too, here on the OU campus.

At 01:41 AM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":
>
>The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the Carleton College alumni
>magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of high school girls from
>SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of the article is "Moby Chick".
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
>  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Fri Nov 12 15:50:24 1999
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:50:24 -0500
Subject: CAPITALS,
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.105024.0500.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Pafra & Scott Catledge <scplc at GS.VERIO.NET>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, November 11, 1999 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: CAPITALS,


>Concatenating replies to save header space; sorry if it inconveniences
>anyone.


Ditto...

>1. CAPITAL LETTERS.  Everything that has been said so far jibes with what
>I've heard. Two devil's advocate questions:
>
>a) If capital letters are harder to read, why was the old typewriter font
>called Orator, designed for typing speeches in big letters, an all-caps
>font?  OK, there were large caps and small caps, but they were all caps.


The 'hard to read' description I think was meant to apply to letters of the
same size, not form. With small caps and large caps, you still get the same
sort of positioning cues as with upper and lower case, but since the letters
are all the same shape, it presumably reads faster than pages in mixed case.
The orator needs to be looking at the audience, not reading from the
lectern. His pages serve as cues, no literature. I don't expect there's a
noticeable speed increase. Might make for an interesting experiment
though...

>b) If letters without ascenders and descenders are harder to read, how has
>e.g. the Cyrillic alphabet survived without significant modification?
>One of the reasons I've had a hard time learning to read Russian, Hebrew,
>Chinese, etc. is that these require making fine discriminations about
>features in the interior of a character, rather than just recognizing the
>overall shape of a word.


Russians, Chinese, and readers of Hebrew are masochists.

I don't think alphabets are generally all that plastic. There are font and
typeface variations, to be sure, and perhaps these can serve as analogs to
accent and dialect, but I think the main impetus behind alphabetic variation
is technology, not readability (excepting handwriting).

bkd


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 15:51:06 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:51:06 -0500
Subject: Ada, Or Ardor
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.105106.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I meant the low front tense vowel, vs. the 'script a' which I can't do on
e-mail (I hope my example of 'Addie' made that clear).  And you're right; I
think of [a] as low central, as used in AmerEng diphthongs, vs. low back
'script a'.  But our main concern here is with the term 'broad', which may
be interpreted differently in AmEng and BritEng, right?

At 05:20 PM 11/11/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>>
>>Natalie, by 'ah' do you mean [a] or [ae]?  I interpreted '"broad" to mean
>>the low front vowel...
>
>Beverly, by 'the low front vowel' do you mean [a] or [ae] ??!!
>
>According to IPA, [a] is the lowest (most open) of the front vowels. And the
>vowel chart used in LANE, PEAS, etc. agrees.
>
>But perhaps the absence of [a] from most American dialects (and the
>resultant fact that [ae] is the low-frontest vowel) has something to do with
>the alternative conception, e.g. in Wolfram/Schilling-Estes:
>
>[ae]    low front tense
>[a]     low central
>
>Maybe the point here is that since starting from [E] you can't go lower
>without going back at the same time, there is no "corner" for a real "true"
>low front vowel to occupy...
>

Unless you use a trapezoid conceptualization of vowel space instead of a
triangular one; in the former you have a "corner," albeit a backed one, as
you say.

______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Fri Nov 12 18:50:58 1999
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:50:58 -0800
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.105058.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Whch edition of Black's is the "new edition". I've been using the Fifth
Edition since 1976. I'm guessing it's "abominable" but I don't know for sure
'cause it seems to work pretty good.  :-)

Bob

Fred Shapiro wrote:

> Bethany,
>
> I don't know if by "glossaries" you mean brief word-lists, as opposed to
> full-length books, but in law the new edition of Black's Law Dictionary is
> reasonably good (former editions were abominable).
>
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
> Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
> Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Fri Nov 12 16:19:04 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:19:04 -0800
Subject: Etymology of "Rx"
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.081904.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- "A. Maberry" <maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU> wrote:
> This hardly sets the record straight, but I have
> always heard that it is
> an abbreviation for some form the Latin verb recipio
> -ere. The "R" is
> understandable and the "x" is a medieval Latin
> ligature for a combination
> of letters which forms the abbreviation "Rx". The
> "x" sign probably
> doesn't represent an "x" since Latin only uses an
> "x" to represent the
> Greek letter "ksi" in Greek loan words.


I've seen similar "(single-letter)x" abbreviations
used for "diagnosis" and "prognosis", but I can't
recall what those first letters are.

JIM

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Fri Nov 12 16:24:04 1999
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen Miller)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:24:04 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <382C6192.37546974@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.112404.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bryan Garner - just recently put out the seventh edition, in fact it was
published in August


At 10:50 AM 11/12/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Whch edition of Black's is the "new edition". I've been using the Fifth
>Edition since 1976. I'm guessing it's "abominable" but I don't know for sure
>'cause it seems to work pretty good.  :-)
>
>Bob
>
>Fred Shapiro wrote:
>
>> Bethany,
>>
>> I don't know if by "glossaries" you mean brief word-lists, as opposed to
>> full-length books, but in law the new edition of Black's Law Dictionary is
>> reasonably good (former editions were abominable).
>>
>> Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
>> Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
>>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
>> Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
>> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Nov 12 16:26:41 1999
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:26:41 -0600
Subject: Cold Mountain
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.102641.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beverly wrote:
> Natalie, by 'ah' do you mean [a] or [ae]?  I interpreted '"broad" to mean
> the low front vowel, as in "Addie" (perhaps a diminutive of Ada?).

I meant low back -- the one that I can't make on my computer but that
[a] is sometimes used for (though I think of [a] as the sound of my
pronunciation of the pronoun I, not as the ah sound of father --
that's the sound I'm talking about -- the one with the non-print little
a symbol -- like "open your mouth and go ahhhh").
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 12 16:36:40 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:36:40 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <382C6192.37546974@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.113640.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Bob Fitzke wrote:

> Whch edition of Black's is the "new edition". I've been using the Fifth
> Edition since 1976. I'm guessing it's "abominable" but I don't know for sure
> 'cause it seems to work pretty good.  :-)

The 7th edition has just come out, and it's light years better than
previous editions.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Nov 12 16:57:03 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:57:03 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <382C6192.37546974@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.115703.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Bob Fitzke wrote:
>Whch edition of Black's is the "new edition". I've been using the Fifth
>Edition since 1976. I'm guessing it's "abominable" but I don't know for sure
>'cause it seems to work pretty good.  :-)

Look at the 6th ed.

Bethany


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Nov 12 16:57:53 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:57:53 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <4.1.19991112112254.00971250@mailgate.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.115753.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Kathleen Miller wrote:
>Bryan Garner - just recently put out the seventh edition, in fact it was
>published in August

Thanks. I guess I also used an abominable one, since I used the 6th.

Bethany


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 17:43:56 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:43:56 -0500
Subject: Cold Mountain
In-Reply-To: <199911121626.KAA11431@disney.cs.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.124356.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks--I also cannot make the low back symbol on e-mail.  (I suppose I
could import it from my SIL set?  But I don't know how!)  In any case, I
called it 'script a.'  I learned something from your comment though:  I
didn't realize the Southern monophthong 'I' is [a] and not the low back
'script a'!  I'll listen more carefully next time ([tam], right?)!

At 10:26 AM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Beverly wrote:
> > Natalie, by 'ah' do you mean [a] or [ae]?  I interpreted '"broad" to mean
> > the low front vowel, as in "Addie" (perhaps a diminutive of Ada?).
>
>I meant low back -- the one that I can't make on my computer but that
>[a] is sometimes used for (though I think of [a] as the sound of my
>pronunciation of the pronoun I, not as the ah sound of father --
>that's the sound I'm talking about -- the one with the non-print little
>a symbol -- like "open your mouth and go ahhhh").
>    --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU  Fri Nov 12 18:13:58 1999
From: Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU (Bradley, Beth M)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:13:58 -0600
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.121358.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am in college.  Now and in high school, my friends and I have used
"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We do not take offense to
it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are surprised that we use the
term.
What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some people?

-Beth Bradley



-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Kysilko [mailto:pds at VISI.COM]
Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 1:41 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Chick


Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":

The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the Carleton College alumni
magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of high school girls from
SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of the article is "Moby
Chick".


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Fri Nov 12 18:04:07 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:04:07 -0500
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.130407.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Amy, I'm with you. I'm forever buying new guides to software and then
despair of ever understanding the ins and outs of my computer. I think
consistency is the key, like your using <>s to represent keystrokes. I also
think it's important for words to match what's on the computer. I wouldn't
understand click file, which is misleading. I also agree it's appalling
that your manager is determined to maintain the status quo of incorrect
punctuation. It'll probably take notice from an important customer to get
her to change her attitude.

 While I would write,
>
>| 1. Click File, then click Open. The Open dialog box displays. |
>| 2. Press <Home>, then press <Enter>.                                |
>
>the idea is that capitalization is used for clarification. If I were to
>write, "Click file, then click open," I feel that could be even more
>confusing than the unconventional capitalization. The screen clearly
>displays "File" and "Open" as options, so I ought to be writing them as they
>are displayed.
>
>The keystroke example I used will vary from company to company. I used < >
>because of the lack of options in my email. Some would use bold, italics,
>all caps, etc. The most important thing is that the reader understands that
>those are keystrokes.
>
>Technical writing often takes conventional English writing rules and twists
>them a little bit to fit the software, the company style, or whatnot. I was
>mortified to learn that my department uses some punctuation incorrectly.
>When I talked to my manager about correcting it, she said that's they way
>it's done here, and we will have to continue to do it that way. Arrgghh!!
>Talk about an English major's nightmare.
>
>Amy
>


From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Fri Nov 12 18:04:06 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:04:06 -0500
Subject: Cold Mountain
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.130406.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I hadn't even considered the low back vowel as an option. I guess I was
thinking the broad A must be either [ae] as in Beverly's Addie or the front
central-leaning [a] that you use for I. My niece was adopted from Orange
County in Virginia. Her name is Ida Mae and she pronounces it [ad at meI]. (I
can't remember what you use for schwa-that's what the @ is to represent).
Could this be posturing on the part of the Charlestonian father to write
her name Ada and then pronounce it like you might also pronounce Ida? I've
run into situations like this when I substituted for the public schools in
southeastern Ohio. Children would correct my pronunciation of what seemed
to me a common name.

I've never heard Ada any way other than [ed@]. I found this passage
intriguing, because Frazier is so deliberate in his description. Thanks for
your input.

At 10:26 AM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Beverly wrote:
>> Natalie, by 'ah' do you mean [a] or [ae]?  I interpreted '"broad" to mean
>> the low front vowel, as in "Addie" (perhaps a diminutive of Ada?).
>
>I meant low back -- the one that I can't make on my computer but that
>[a] is sometimes used for (though I think of [a] as the sound of my
>pronunciation of the pronoun I, not as the ah sound of father --
>that's the sound I'm talking about -- the one with the non-print little
>a symbol -- like "open your mouth and go ahhhh").
>   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)
>


From ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 12 19:01:52 1999
From: ucwords at HOTMAIL.COM (Jane Clark)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:01:52 PST
Subject: NADS 31.3
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.110152.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Please clarify: Are the regional meetings announced for next year? The date
said 99. Or have they already been held. Sorry, but I am a new member of the
group. Very confusing.


>From: AAllan at AOL.COM
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: NADS 31.3
>Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 17:41:16 EDT
>
>You may well be wondering what happened to the September issue of the
>Newsletter of the American Dialect Society, especially if you've just
>received your dues notice from Duke University Press with reference to Page
>3
>of that issue. Well, Duke is on time, the Newsletter isn't.
>
>The good news is that it will go to the printer Monday the 25th and will go
>out by first-class mail at the end of the week.
>
>Also, on Monday a copy will go to Grant Barrett for posting on the ADS-L
>website, so you can download and read the news at your convenience.
>
>The issue has the very complete program of our January meeting, with full
>original abstracts - bigger than the ones LSA allows in their program. It
>also has the annual directory of members, news of a few other meetings, and
>of course another page of queries from DARE.
>
>Thanks for your patience, or maybe your impatience. Both have helped bring
>it
>to completion. - Allan Metcalf
>

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 19:52:39 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:52:39 -0500
Subject: Chick
In-Reply-To: <2717AE3C3A50D311BD5B00C00D0093042B1E62@ems5.uwsp.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.145239.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The women, and thankfully men, who are surprised or take offense at the
term know of the long history of trying to get rid of animal-based terms
for women (far fewer animal words are used for men).   So now they're
coming back!  What kind of connotation does 'chick' have for you--little,
soft, cute, fluffy, playful, high-peeped, to be cuddled in the palm of the
hand?  Is this how you want to be viewed?  And, maybe more importantly, do
only your female friends use this term (mutually, I assume), or do your
male friends use it too--non-mutually, I assume?  Or do you call young
males 'chicks' also?

At 12:13 PM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>I am in college.  Now and in high school, my friends and I have used
>"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We do not take offense to
>it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are surprised that we use the
>term.
>What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some people?
>
>-Beth Bradley
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Kysilko [mailto:pds at VISI.COM]
>Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 1:41 AM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Chick
>
>
>Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":
>
>The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the Carleton College alumni
>magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of high school girls from
>SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of the article is "Moby
>Chick".
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
>   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Fri Nov 12 20:15:49 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:15:49 -0700
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.131549.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It seems to me that the word "chick" is regaining popularity, especially
among young females. I would be insulted if a colleague called me Chick, but
I would tolerate it from a friend. Perhaps it is an attitude among women
that we can call ourselves whatever we like. The popular country music group
Dixie Chicks, for example, picked their own name and even have chick feet
tattooed on their feet. Their web site (www.dixiechicks.com) says, "The
Dixie Chicks came out of the chute with enough sass and confidence to adopt
slogans like 'Chicks Rule' and 'Chicks Kick Ass.'" Whether the Dixie Chicks
themselves are leading this fad, I don't know. My question is, "Is it more
acceptable for women to refer to themselves as chicks than for men?"

Amy

-----Original Message-----
From: Bradley, Beth M <Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Friday, November 12, 1999 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: Chick


>I am in college.  Now and in high school, my friends and I have used
>"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We do not take offense to
>it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are surprised that we use
the
>term.
>What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some people?
>
>-Beth Bradley
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Kysilko [mailto:pds at VISI.COM]
>Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 1:41 AM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Chick
>
>
>Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":
>
>The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the Carleton College alumni
>magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of high school girls from
>SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of the article is "Moby
>Chick".
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
>  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Fri Nov 12 19:19:54 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:19:54 -0500
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.141954.0500.>

I think I may have said this before, but for me it seems that the
reclamation of "chick" has something to do with its phonetic similarity
to (and thus perhaps connotation of) "chica" (which I was using as an
address term with friends before "girlfriend" was popularized) and
perhaps also associations with "chic"  (remember "Chic" Jeans?  They
pronounced the name like "chick", not "sheik".)

I think it also helps that "chick" has such a snappy sound.  The word
itself (ignoring the animal reference) is short and sharp, with those
voiceless obstruents and short high vowel.  So, "chick" sounds better as
a reclaimed power-laden label than something else (like bunny or kitty
or baby) would.

Of course, I look at college age women these days, and a lot of them
look like they are trying to look like the animal chick--tiny (and in
little girl clothes) and cute (tiny barrettes, tiny backpacks) and
cuddly (always smiling).  What I wouldn't do for some nice goth students
who I can relate to!

Lynne, whose students now laugh heartily when she tries to call herself
a "chick"

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Nov 12 20:13:28 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:13:28 -0500
Subject: male pattern baldness (was Re: Chick)
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991112143713.00b79830@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.151328.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I listened to a description of a male suffering from "male pattern
baldness" the other day and wondered why the description did not say
simply that he was "bald." (It was clear from the context that he was
male.)

Then I wondered: would fat women sound more attractive if we described
then as suffering from, say, "female pattern fatness"?

Bethany


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Fri Nov 12 19:40:59 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:40:59 -0500
Subject: male pattern baldness
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.144059.0500.>

"Bethany K. Dumas" wrote:

> I listened to a description of a male suffering from "male pattern
> baldness" the other day and wondered why the description did not say
> simply that he was "bald." (It was clear from the context that he was
> male.)
>
> Then I wondered: would fat women sound more attractive if we described
> then as suffering from, say, "female pattern fatness"?

When you say a guy has MPB, you are saying that he has some hair.  It's
in a horseshoe pattern on his head.  If you say he's bald, then it sounds
like he has no hair, or at least less than a horse-shoe's worth.  So, by
saying he has MPB you're kind of saying that it's not necessarily that
he's old, but he doesn't have as much hair as he used to.  You're also
saying that it's a genetic thing that is not self-imposed.  I don't know
that it actually makes him sound more attractive than if he were just
bald.  In fact, I think it conjures up images of pathetic George Costanza
types, rather than sexy Jean-Luc Picard types (I think Patrick Stewart,
who has a horseshoe fringe, would not be described as having MPB, but
would just be bald--and sexy).  You often (well, sometimes) hear women
say "I think bald men are sexy", but not "I think men with male pattern
baldness are sexy."

I assume that female-pattern-fatness would be bottom-heaviness (tummy,
hips, and thighs).  And since I don't think MPB makes men sound more
attractive, I also don't think that FPF would make women sound more
attractive.

Lynne, who was once complimented by an African man that she has "the body
of a woman who has had MANY children"


--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 12 20:40:58 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:40:58 EST
Subject: NADS 31.3
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.154058.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Jane,

<< Please clarify: Are the regional meetings announced for next year? The date
said 99. Or have they already been held. Sorry, but I am a new member of the
group. Very confusing. >>

Sorry for the confusion! That was one other problem with the issue: it was
late. I kept the regional programs to inform readers about who was talking on
what.

You'll notice that the dates and places of future years' meetings are
announced at the end of each region's program, to help in planning ahead. The
January issue will have calls for papers, and the May issue will have
preliminary programs for 2000.

I want to welcome you as a new member. But you're not in the ADS database
yet. I guess Duke U Press hasn't yet told us of your joining. And yet you
have the newsletter, which I send out using labels from the ADS database. Do
I have you listed under some other name than Jane Clark?

Thanks for your help in solving this mystery.

Best wishes - Allan Metcalf


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 20:35:36 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:35:36 -0500
Subject: male pattern baldness (was Re: Chick)
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.153536.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:13 PM 11/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I listened to a description of a male suffering from "male pattern
>baldness" the other day and wondered why the description did not say
>simply that he was "bald." (It was clear from the context that he was
>male.)
>
>Then I wondered: would fat women sound more attractive if we described
>then as suffering from, say, "female pattern fatness"?
>
>Bethany
>

(1) euphemism to soften the blow
                 +
(2) abstract, scientific multi-attributive
terminology ("attributive attributive abstract-noun"
is a very common -- dare I say it? -- pattern...),
in order to present the phenomenon as
more vague and more important-sounding


A very very common strategy in an era where people worry a lot about how
dictional choices might hurt their own or others' feelings, right?

Best, Greg D.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 20:39:16 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:39:16 -0500
Subject: male pattern baldness (was Re: Chick)
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.153916.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:13 PM 11/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>would fat women sound more attractive if we described
>then as suffering from, say, "female pattern fatness"?
>
>Bethany
>

I meant to add, on the euphemism/science/abstractness front ----

I have read discussions of the supposedly differential anatomical locations
in which males and felames supposedly tend to store supererogatory adiposity
and lipidity. I bet if you searched the medical and pop-medical literature
on obesity and related issues from the last couple of decades you'd find
phrasing very much like the above, for both sexes.

Best, Greg D.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Nov 12 20:42:43 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:42:43 -0800
Subject: male pattern baldness (was Re: Chick)
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.124243.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Bethany K. Dumas" wrote:
>
> I listened to a description of a male suffering from "male pattern
> baldness" the other day and wondered why the description did not say
> simply that he was "bald." (It was clear from the context that he was
> male.)
>

Um, my husband would object to that and calls himself "follicly challenged".

;-}

Andrea


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 20:54:26 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:54:26 -0500
Subject: male pattern baldness
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.155426.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:40 PM 11/12/99 -0500, M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu wrote:
>If you say he's bald, then it sounds
>like he has no hair, or at least less than a horse-shoe's worth.
>

"Bald" is of course an old word that did not originate from science or
medicine. As such it has a wide and rather fuzzy range of meaning. It can
mean completely hairless, or it can mean not having hair on some part of the
head where it would normally be. OED2 bald, meaning 2 (the first meaning
having to do with hair): "Having no hair on some part of the head where it
would naturally grow...."

I suspect that in drawing a clear distinction (i.e., eliminating any
overlap) between MPB and bald, you are doing something that people often do:
forging and articulating a distinction between what are,
descriptivistically, overlapping locutions, i.e., neatening up the language.
It's not folk-etymology, it's more like "non-descriptivistic semantic
disambiguation" or something. (Hey, "folk-etymology" isn't the most accurate
term in the world, either -- phenomena discussed under the heading
"folk-etymology" frequently arise or happen elsewhere than among "the folk,"
and are in fact quite often non-etymological.)

Best, Greg D.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Fri Nov 12 20:18:19 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:18:19 -0500
Subject: male pattern baldness
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.151819.0500.>

Yes, "bald" has a fuzzy meaning (like just about everything else).  The point I
was trying to make was that because the two terms exist, and one of them
definitely does not describe complete baldness,  the one that has the potential
to mean something different ("bald" can mean 'completely hairless') is often
assumed to have that more extreme meaning.  Also, one might suppose that the
prototypical meaning for "bald" is complete hairlessness (my cat is bald, he
went bald from chemotherapy), but the prototypical meaning for "bald man" is
more like "male pattern baldness"--bringing up other problems.

Lynne, who doesn't have a cat, but might like a bald one

Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote:

> At 02:40 PM 11/12/99 -0500, M_Lynne_Murphy at baylor.edu wrote:
> >If you say he's bald, then it sounds
> >like he has no hair, or at least less than a horse-shoe's worth.
> >
>
> "Bald" is of course an old word that did not originate from science or
> medicine. As such it has a wide and rather fuzzy range of meaning. It can
> mean completely hairless, or it can mean not having hair on some part of the
> head where it would normally be. OED2 bald, meaning 2 (the first meaning
> having to do with hair): "Having no hair on some part of the head where it
> would naturally grow...."
>
> I suspect that in drawing a clear distinction (i.e., eliminating any
> overlap) between MPB and bald, you are doing something that people often do:
> forging and articulating a distinction between what are,
> descriptivistically, overlapping locutions, i.e., neatening up the language.
> It's not folk-etymology, it's more like "non-descriptivistic semantic
> disambiguation" or something. (Hey, "folk-etymology" isn't the most accurate
> term in the world, either -- phenomena discussed under the heading
> "folk-etymology" frequently arise or happen elsewhere than among "the folk,"
> and are in fact quite often non-etymological.)
>
> Best, Greg D.
>
> Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 21:13:49 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:13:49 -0500
Subject: Chick
In-Reply-To: <001601bf2d4a$b6795ce0$61b7f7ce@scooby.paradigmtech.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.161349.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:15 PM 11/12/99 -0700, you wrote:
>It seems to me that the word "chick" is regaining popularity, especially
>among young females. I would be insulted if a colleague called me Chick, but
>I would tolerate it from a friend. Perhaps it is an attitude among women
>that we can call ourselves whatever we like. The popular country music group
>Dixie Chicks, for example, picked their own name and even have chick feet
>tattooed on their feet. Their web site (www.dixiechicks.com) says, "The
>Dixie Chicks came out of the chute with enough sass and confidence to adopt
>slogans like 'Chicks Rule' and 'Chicks Kick Ass.'" Whether the Dixie Chicks
>themselves are leading this fad, I don't know. My question is, "Is it more
>acceptable for women to refer to themselves as chicks than for men?"

Than for men to call women chicks, I assume you mean?  I would hope
so.  Related terms like 'girl', 'girlfriend', and even 'bitch' appear to be
OK from female to female but not from male to female--or at least I hope
so.  However, when I ask my undergraduate women if they mind being called
"girls," I get an ever-increasing "no, why?"  As Lynne said, they seem to
enjoy dressing, acting, and talking (with a highpitched squeak) like little
girls, so I guess it follows that they like the label.  In fact, they tell
me "women" sounds "old and stuffy"--the last thing they want to be.  My
cut-off for 'girl' is the end of high school, but these people seem not to
want to give up that stage in their lives.  Interestingly, they also seem
to be rejecting 'Ms' as an address term (also old and stuffy)--FN only, please.

>Amy
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bradley, Beth M <Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Date: Friday, November 12, 1999 11:14 AM
>Subject: Re: Chick
>
>
> >I am in college.  Now and in high school, my friends and I have used
> >"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We do not take offense to
> >it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are surprised that we use
>the
> >term.
> >What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some people?
> >
> >-Beth Bradley
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Tom Kysilko [mailto:pds at VISI.COM]
> >Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 1:41 AM
> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >Subject: Chick
> >
> >
> >Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":
> >
> >The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the Carleton College alumni
> >magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of high school girls from
> >SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of the article is "Moby
> >Chick".
> >
> >
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
> >  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Fri Nov 12 21:41:54 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:41:54 -0700
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.144154.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am beginning to feel that I will always be called "girl," rather than
"woman." Even at my job, women are often referred to as girls. While I don't
find it offensive, I am beginning to wonder what it takes to be called a
woman. As a backlash, I find myself sometimes referring to men as boys.
Which is not always an inaccuracy.

>At 01:15 PM 11/12/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>It seems to me that the word "chick" is regaining popularity, especially
>>among young females. I would be insulted if a colleague called me Chick,
but
>>I would tolerate it from a friend. Perhaps it is an attitude among women
>>that we can call ourselves whatever we like. The popular country music
group
>>Dixie Chicks, for example, picked their own name and even have chick feet
>>tattooed on their feet. Their web site (www.dixiechicks.com) says, "The
>>Dixie Chicks came out of the chute with enough sass and confidence to
adopt
>>slogans like 'Chicks Rule' and 'Chicks Kick Ass.'" Whether the Dixie
Chicks
>>themselves are leading this fad, I don't know. My question is, "Is it more
>>acceptable for women to refer to themselves as chicks than for men?"
>
>Than for men to call women chicks, I assume you mean?  I would hope
>so.  Related terms like 'girl', 'girlfriend', and even 'bitch' appear to be
>OK from female to female but not from male to female--or at least I hope
>so.  However, when I ask my undergraduate women if they mind being called
>"girls," I get an ever-increasing "no, why?"  As Lynne said, they seem to
>enjoy dressing, acting, and talking (with a highpitched squeak) like little
>girls, so I guess it follows that they like the label.  In fact, they tell
>me "women" sounds "old and stuffy"--the last thing they want to be.  My
>cut-off for 'girl' is the end of high school, but these people seem not to
>want to give up that stage in their lives.  Interestingly, they also seem
>to be rejecting 'Ms' as an address term (also old and stuffy)--FN only,
please.
>
>>Amy
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Bradley, Beth M <Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU>
>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Date: Friday, November 12, 1999 11:14 AM
>>Subject: Re: Chick
>>
>>
>> >I am in college.  Now and in high school, my friends and I have used
>> >"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We do not take offense
to
>> >it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are surprised that we use
>>the
>> >term.
>> >What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some people?
>> >
>> >-Beth Bradley
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Tom Kysilko [mailto:pds at VISI.COM]
>> >Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 1:41 AM
>> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> >Subject: Chick
>> >
>> >
>> >Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":
>> >
>> >The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the Carleton College alumni
>> >magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of high school girls
from
>> >SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of the article is "Moby
>> >Chick".
>> >
>> >
>> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
>> >  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
>> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Nov 12 21:54:24 1999
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:54:24 -0800
Subject: male pattern baldness
In-Reply-To: <382C760A.FADC674C@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.135424.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The first time I heard the term "male pattern baldness," it was to
distinguish it from another pattern of balding.  Male pattern baldness is
when the hair loss starts at the crown of the head and spreads outward,
leaving a surrounding band of hair of varying widths.  The other kind (and
I forget what it's called) is when the hair receeds on either side of the
forehead, leaving a "peninsula" of hair in the center. I never thought of
"MPB" as a euphemism--just a descriptive term for one of two common kinds
of balding.  I must say it doesn't seem a very logical term, since it
doesn't contrast with a *female pattern baldness, but rather with a
different kind of male pattern.

Peter


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 21:56:05 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:56:05 -0500
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.165605.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:13 PM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>I am in college.  Now and in high school, my friends and I have used
>"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We do not take offense to
>it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are surprised that we use the
>term.
>What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some people?
>
>-Beth Bradley
>

This is an interesting sociolinguistic question. Something I've noticed on
this list for several years is that as empirical social scientists people
tend to take the descriptivist position ("our job is to describe as
objectively and accurately as possible what people actually do,
linguistically, without fear or favor"). But then the same people turn
around and express very strongly prescriptivistic opinions. I suspect that
there is always a deeper consistency behind any seeming inconsistency,
though the deeper consistency may not always be clearly understood or
acknowledged.

But you are not asking about this meta-problem. To answer your specific
question: My sense would be that it has to do with the sociolinguistics, in
the 1965-75 period, of college-educated and non-college-educated speakers.
During that period, when modern versions of feminism were emerging and
developing, one of the linguistically prescriptivistic ideas proposed in
connection with the movement was that any words for females that seemed to
carry a sexual connotation or could be taken as otherwise offensive needed
to be eliminated by those who supported the main ideas of emergent feminism.
Like many terms of actual or supposed endearment, "chick" was a term for a
small, cuddly animal that had come to be used figuratively in application to
women, either by lovers or by those who wanted to discuss or address women
in a sexualized fashion. (Of course, women also used similar metaphorical
terms of endearment -- or, in some uses, predatory sexualization -- in
application to men, but that was not the issue at that time.)

Sociolinguistically, since emergent feminism tended to be attractive to
those with a college education and the less educated were less aware of or
interested in or even tolerant of emergent feminism, terms such as "chick"
came to be matters of dispute in the culture wars that followed. So today,
thirty years later, when a young woman uses "chick" in the hearing of an
educated woman who grew up in the 60's or 70's and accepted emergent
feminism, that is kind of parallel, sociolinguistically, to a Baptist
hearing someone blatantly swear in a public forum.

This doesn't mean there's anything metaphysically offensive about all the
terms that came to be negatively marked. Note for example that "lady" came
to be seen as offensive as part of the same process, not because there is
something offensive about the metaphor involved ("lady" is actually an
aristocratic term if you trace it back) but, again, for sociolingusitic
reasons. "Lady" was a term of address used for women whose name one didn't
know by people without a college education -- cadrivers and the like (recall
Archie Bunker, a fictional character in the early 70's). Since those who
were interested in the emergent feminist perspective perceived that such
folks were frequently on "the other side" in the culture wars, those
people's terms for women came to be stigmatized in more educated circles.
Thus the originally aristocratic "lady," which had been employed as a (by
aspiration, at least) upscale term among less educated and affluent people
in the pre-1970 period, came to be seen as repulsive and insulting, while
"woman" (interestingly, "wife person" if one traces it back) was seen as
inoffensive because it was the most mainstream and unmarked word in the
actual usage of that time.

So, sociolingistic history lives on!

Best, Greg D.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 22:05:58 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:05:58 -0500
Subject: male pattern baldness
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.170558.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:54 PM 11/12/99, "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
>The first time I heard the term "male pattern baldness," it was to
>distinguish it from another pattern of balding.  Male pattern baldness is
>when the hair loss starts at the crown of the head and spreads outward,
>leaving a surrounding band of hair of varying widths.  The other kind (and
>I forget what it's called) is when the hair receeds on either side of the
>forehead, leaving a "peninsula" of hair in the center.
>

I can't recall seeing this other phenomenon, or the non-MPB term that would
describe it. But I hear and read "bald" and "MPB" all the time. Does anyone
have a reference?

Since people are interseted in this, OED2 has the following under "pattern"
(noun), at the end of the entry where the compounds are listed:

"pattern baldness, baldness in which there is a gradual loss of hair in
accordance with a characteristic pattern, as in the receding hair-line that
commonly occurs in men as they grow older"

citations:

1916 Jrnl. Heredity VII. 349/2 Congenital baldness must not be confused with
*pattern baldness.
1956 C. Auerbach Genetics in Atomic Age 16 The so-called pattern-baldness of
men is due to a mutated gene which acts most effectively on the background
of a male constitution.
1974 Jrnl. Clin. Endocrinol. & Metabolism XXXIX. 1012/1 Androgens may
paradoxically cause male pattern baldness in individuals with a genetic
predisposition.


>I never thought of
>"MPB" as a euphemism--just a descriptive term for one of two common kinds
>of balding.  I must say it doesn't seem a very logical term, since it
>doesn't contrast with a *female pattern baldness, but rather with a
>different kind of male pattern.
>

If it happened to be a particular pattern of hair loss that tends to be seen
in men more than in women, without contrasting with any other pattern of
baldness in men, the term would make fairly good sense.

Best, Greg D.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 12 22:44:08 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:44:08 -0500
Subject: Chick
In-Reply-To: <199911122156.QAA27118@is2.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.174408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A very nice encapsulation of my "Language of Women and Men" course!  The
era is right, of course, with Robin Lakoff kicking off the discussion and
with people like Julia Penelope Stanley dealing specifically with sexual
and animal terms and their connotations when used about and to
persons.  And yes, prescriptivism inevitably comes into play when we deal
with such touchy issues, though I try to move from description and
subjective reaction toward a class consensus of sorts (though I'm defeated
lately on the notion of "girl," as I've said).

At 04:56 PM 11/12/99 -0500, you wrote:
>At 12:13 PM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >I am in college.  Now and in high school, my friends and I have used
> >"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We do not take offense to
> >it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are surprised that we use the
> >term.
> >What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some people?
> >
> >-Beth Bradley
> >
>
>This is an interesting sociolinguistic question. Something I've noticed on
>this list for several years is that as empirical social scientists people
>tend to take the descriptivist position ("our job is to describe as
>objectively and accurately as possible what people actually do,
>linguistically, without fear or favor"). But then the same people turn
>around and express very strongly prescriptivistic opinions. I suspect that
>there is always a deeper consistency behind any seeming inconsistency,
>though the deeper consistency may not always be clearly understood or
>acknowledged.
>
>But you are not asking about this meta-problem. To answer your specific
>question: My sense would be that it has to do with the sociolinguistics, in
>the 1965-75 period, of college-educated and non-college-educated speakers.
>During that period, when modern versions of feminism were emerging and
>developing, one of the linguistically prescriptivistic ideas proposed in
>connection with the movement was that any words for females that seemed to
>carry a sexual connotation or could be taken as otherwise offensive needed
>to be eliminated by those who supported the main ideas of emergent feminism.
>Like many terms of actual or supposed endearment, "chick" was a term for a
>small, cuddly animal that had come to be used figuratively in application to
>women, either by lovers or by those who wanted to discuss or address women
>in a sexualized fashion. (Of course, women also used similar metaphorical
>terms of endearment -- or, in some uses, predatory sexualization -- in
>application to men, but that was not the issue at that time.)
>
>Sociolinguistically, since emergent feminism tended to be attractive to
>those with a college education and the less educated were less aware of or
>interested in or even tolerant of emergent feminism, terms such as "chick"
>came to be matters of dispute in the culture wars that followed. So today,
>thirty years later, when a young woman uses "chick" in the hearing of an
>educated woman who grew up in the 60's or 70's and accepted emergent
>feminism, that is kind of parallel, sociolinguistically, to a Baptist
>hearing someone blatantly swear in a public forum.
>
>This doesn't mean there's anything metaphysically offensive about all the
>terms that came to be negatively marked. Note for example that "lady" came
>to be seen as offensive as part of the same process, not because there is
>something offensive about the metaphor involved ("lady" is actually an
>aristocratic term if you trace it back) but, again, for sociolingusitic
>reasons. "Lady" was a term of address used for women whose name one didn't
>know by people without a college education -- cadrivers and the like (recall
>Archie Bunker, a fictional character in the early 70's). Since those who
>were interested in the emergent feminist perspective perceived that such
>folks were frequently on "the other side" in the culture wars, those
>people's terms for women came to be stigmatized in more educated circles.
>Thus the originally aristocratic "lady," which had been employed as a (by
>aspiration, at least) upscale term among less educated and affluent people
>in the pre-1970 period, came to be seen as repulsive and insulting, while
>"woman" (interestingly, "wife person" if one traces it back) was seen as
>inoffensive because it was the most mainstream and unmarked word in the
>actual usage of that time.
>
>So, sociolingistic history lives on!
>
>Best, Greg D.
>
>
>Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Fri Nov 12 23:01:38 1999
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:01:38 -0600
Subject: Cold Mountain
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.170138.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beverly said:
>   I learned something from your comment though:  I
> didn't realize the Southern monophthong 'I' is [a] and not the low back
> 'script a'!  I'll listen more carefully next time ([tam], right?)!

I just remembered that I've had a sample of a monophthongal "I" on my
web page for ages.  I think this is the right file:
http://www2.msstate.edu/~maynor/hi.wav
If that doesn't work, go to http://www2.msstate.edu/~maynor/ and click
on something like "a genuine monophthongal [aI] for curious yankees."
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Sat Nov 13 01:52:26 1999
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:52:26 -0800
Subject: male pattern baldness (was Re: Chick)
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.175226.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I suspect it's to differentiate causes. My son was bald at 44 but it was
because he underwent chemotherapy for non-Hodgkins lymphoma. I doubt the
advertisers purport to alleviate that kind of loss.

Bob

Bethany K. Dumas wrote:

> I listened to a description of a male suffering from "male pattern
> baldness" the other day and wondered why the description did not say
> simply that he was "bald." (It was clear from the context that he was
> male.)
>
> Then I wondered: would fat women sound more attractive if we described
> then as suffering from, say, "female pattern fatness"?
>
> Bethany


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Sat Nov 13 02:38:40 1999
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:38:40 -0800
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.183840.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Pafra & Scott Catledge wrote:

> >
> > I wouldn't be happy if English majors with no training in computers
> > tried to create an operating system I would have to use on my computer.
> > Why should I be forced to accept the impenetrable muddles written by
> > computer geniuses with no knowledge of writing?
> >
> > -- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
> > PEACE !!!
>
> You hit the nail on the head; I always prattle on that the best "how-to"
> manuals are written by a naive writer with the expert assistance of
> someone in the field.

My view has been that computer instructions are written by folks who want to
globally explain everything  the computer can do. They should be written from
the perspective of the user, the person who wants to do something specific.
And far too often the instructions use several words for the same item or
thing; a practice that would screw up a program these instruction-writers
would construct.  When you think about it, it boggles the mind that thousands
of teachers daily and successfully give instructions to millions of kids about
how to do things they, the kids, have never done before. At a fraction of what
these computer types are paid.


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 12 23:35:32 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (No Name Available)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 18:35:32 EST
Subject: male pattern baldness (was Re: Chick)
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.183532.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I personally prefer, "pleasingly plump."
                SIGNED,
            A 40-something-year-old (I forget the exact age) who flaunts her
"baby
            fat."


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Sat Nov 13 00:18:48 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:18:48 -0800
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.161848.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I believe the underlying theme in folks' complaints about computer documentation
is consistency in terminology, along with capitalization.  One of the many other
corrections I write up has to do with terminology and syntax consistency.  This
is particularly important in the world of translation (not my world but a
concern thereof.)

Someone (maybe Tom Kysilko?) was saying that he would expect computer commands
to be capitalized in doc, or written the way they are in programming.  I would
too, but not all computer _terms_ are commands.  Consider that I am dealing with
messages which look like:

The File you are Accessing is not Found.

Argh.  (I should get a parrot for my shoulder.)

anDrEA


From bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM  Sat Nov 13 00:55:45 1999
From: bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM (Bookrat)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:55:45 -0800
Subject: Belated reply re: "the" wife
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991109182534.00a29140@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.12.NOV.1999.165545.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:26 PM -0800 11/9/99, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

>>I have said "in college" all my life.
>>
>>Bethany
>
>
>Me too--but not "in university."  (Minnesota born and bred.)

A few months ago, the syndicated comic strip "For Better Or Worse" (written
by a Canadian and set in Ontario) contained a panel in which a girl tells
her little sister:

"Next year I'll be in univerisity!"

I find it interesting that American English speakers may be found in
college but never in university.

There's a local talk-show host (for those of you in the San Francisco area,
Michael Krasny of KQED) who, whenever he has guests in the studio with him,
announces, "...and in studio with me..."  (I don't think it's a
Canadianism, as he was born in Ohio.)

Ken Miller
Partridge School of Gentle Arts


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Sat Nov 13 07:07:09 1999
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 01:07:09 -0600
Subject: male pattern baldness (was Re: Chick)
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.010709.0600.>

Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote:

> I have read discussions of the supposedly differential anatomical locations
> in which males and felames supposedly tend to store supererogatory adiposity
> and lipidity. I bet if you searched the medical and pop-medical literature
> on obesity and related issues from the last couple of decades you'd find
> phrasing very much like the above, for both sexes.
>
> Best, Greg D.
>
> Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu

What you'll find is "male pattern obesity", sometimes abbreviated to
MPO.  Definitions usually run to metaphor or simile, rather than
anatomical description:  "The typical 'beer belly' of MPO".

The antonym is what you'd expect: female pattern obesity, or FPO.

Now picture a man with slim hips, narrow buttocks, and a fairly flat
lower abdomen.  Endow him with large amounts of drooping, unmuscular
flesh on his upper arms and a pair of fatty rolls, one at the lower part
of his chest and another roughly at his midsection.  I'm describing
someone I know who clearly is carrying a lot of excess weight.  I'd say
he's fat, and on one of my high-falutin' days I might even say he's
obese.  There is no question that this person is male.  He simply
doesn't have male pattern obesity.

-- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
PEACE !!!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 13 08:01:13 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 03:01:13 EST
Subject: More Cancun drinks; Ric Burns's NEW YORK
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.030113.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MORE CANCUN DRINKS

     Greetings from New York, New York, a town so nice...whatever.
     These creations are from the Bar 'n Roll in the Kukulcan Plaza, Cancun:

BAR 'N ROLL COCKTAIL--our famous bomb cocktail, a delicious combination of
rum, whisky, vodka, baileys, choclate syrup, and half-and-half
CABANA--orange, pineapple juice, banana, grenadine, vodka
MARILYN COCKTAIL--pineapple juice, coconut creme with cacao cream, vodka
JAMES DEAN COCKTAIL--orange, cranberry juice mix with coconut rum, melon and
peach liquor and vodka
AYRON SENNA COCKTAIL--pina colada mized with banana and melon liquor
JANIS JOPLIN--orange and cranberry juice mix w/vodka, melon liquor, peach
liquor, and coconut rum
BANANA SUNSET--orange juice w/gin and banana liquor
SUN BURN--cranberry juice mix w/tequila and triple sec
DRAGSTER BEACH--pineapple and orange juice, coconut creme mix with banana and
melon liquor
CANCUN BANANA--vanilla ice cream, chocolate syrup w/bananas, mix w/ banana
liquor, and whipped cream
STRAWBERRY DYLAN--natural strawberries w/strawberry and cherry liquor and
whipped cream
BEATLES LIQUOR--sweet and sour flavour, cranberry juice mix w/rum, triple
sec, vodka and gin
JAGGER BEVERAGE--pineapple and cranberry juice w/ rum, triple sec and blue
curacao
LONG ISLAND--sweet and sour flavour mix w/ rum, triple sec, gin and vodka
ROCK FANTASY--cranberry and orange juice mix w/amaretto
ORANGE PORSCHE--orange juice w/vodka and orange ice cream
MADRAS CLAPTON--pineapple and cranberry juice w/vodka
ALMOND AND ELVIS--vanilla ice cream, chocolate syrup, coconut cream w/amaretto
SEX ON THE BEACH--pineapple and cranberry juice, w/vodka, melon liquor and
raspberry liquor
CANCUN COLADA--pineapple, orange juice, coconut creme, grenadine mix, with
melon liquor and tequila cuervo
SEX MORRISON--vodka, pineapple and cranberry juice mix w/melon liquor and
cherry liquor
JOE BUG--pineapple juice, sweet and sour flavour mix w/melon liquor, coconut
rum and banana liquor
MUD SLIDE--vanilla ice cream, half and half, w/kahlua, amaretto, baileys, and
almond liquor
DUNHILL LENNON--orange juice, grenadine mix with amaretto, southern comfort,
and vodka
YELLOW ROLLS ROYCE--pineapple and orange juice w/coconut rum liquor and melon
liquor
RED CORVETTE--orange and cranberry juice w/tequila and casis (black currant
liquor)
PINK CADILLAC--orange juice, grenadine mix with rum, gin, and peach liquor

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
RIC BURNS'S _NEW YORK_

     NEW YORK ( a PBS documentary, and also a book) by Ric Burns will be on
tv tomorrow.  There are a few errors and omissions.  "Gotham" is described as
a mythical city in England.  It's not so mythical--I've been there.
     But let's cut directly to the big enchilada.
     I wrote Ric Burns a letter when "Big Apple Corner" was going through the
city council.  There was no reply.
     I wrote Ric Burns another letter when "Big Apple Corner" was dedicated.
 There was no reply.
     It stood to reason, therefore, that he'd get my work wrong.  Well...
     "The Big Apple" is conspicuous by its absence.  NEW YORK never mentions
it at all!

(P.S.  Check back in five days and see if my book review made Amazon.com.)


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Nov 13 09:31:32 1999
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 01:31:32 -0800
Subject: change in e-mail address
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.013132.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi Allan,

The e-mail address listed for me in the current NADS
newsletter is no longer in use.  My new e-mail address
is              mlee303 at yahoo.com

Please make the necessary change for the membership
roster.

Thanks,
Margaret G. Lee


--- AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:
> << accurate not only in connotation but in
> denotation >>
>
> um, I meant, of course,
>
> accurate not only in denotation but in connotation
>
> - Allan Metcalf
>


=====
Margaret G. Lee, Associate Professor,English & Linguistics
Department of English
Hampton University
Hampton, VA 23668
Office: (757) 727-5437
Home: (757) 851-5773
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Nov 13 09:48:08 1999
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 01:48:08 -0800
Subject: Chick, chickenhead, and pigeon
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.014808.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What about "chickenhead" and "pigeon," the lastest
bird references to females?  I don't think today's
college women regard them as favorably as they do
chick.

Margaret Lee

--- Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU> wrote:
> I think I may have said this before, but for me it
> seems that the
> reclamation of "chick" has something to do with its
> phonetic similarity
> to (and thus perhaps connotation of) "chica" (which
> I was using as an
> address term with friends before "girlfriend" was
> popularized) and
> perhaps also associations with "chic"  (remember
> "Chic" Jeans?  They
> pronounced the name like "chick", not "sheik".)
>
> I think it also helps that "chick" has such a snappy
> sound.  The word
> itself (ignoring the animal reference) is short and
> sharp, with those
> voiceless obstruents and short high vowel.  So,
> "chick" sounds better as
> a reclaimed power-laden label than something else
> (like bunny or kitty
> or baby) would.
>
> Of course, I look at college age women these days,
> and a lot of them
> look like they are trying to look like the animal
> chick--tiny (and in
> little girl clothes) and cute (tiny barrettes, tiny
> backpacks) and
> cuddly (always smiling).  What I wouldn't do for
> some nice goth students
> who I can relate to!
>
> Lynne, whose students now laugh heartily when she
> tries to call herself
> a "chick"
>
> --
>
> M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
> Department of English, Baylor University
> PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
> Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
> http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy
>


=====
Margaret G. Lee, Associate Professor,English & Linguistics
Department of English
Hampton University
Hampton, VA 23668
Office: (757) 727-5437
Home: (757) 851-5773
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Nov 13 11:43:12 1999
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 03:43:12 -0800
Subject: E-mail address for William Safire
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.034312.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone have the e-mail address for William Safire
or his assistant at the _New York Times Magazine_?
I would appreciate your help.

Margaret Lee

=====
Margaret G. Lee, Associate Professor,English & Linguistics
Department of English
Hampton University
Hampton, VA 23668
Office: (757) 727-5437
Home: (757) 851-5773
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 13 15:46:38 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 10:46:38 EST
Subject: E-mail address for William Safire
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.104638.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Kathleen Miller
millerk at nytimes.com


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Sat Nov 13 17:30:09 1999
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 12:30:09 -0500
Subject: Capitalization
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.123009.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Relative to the recent discussion of the use of capital letters in
software documentation, I thought that the following might be of
interest.  In an update patch from Microsoft, the EULA for the software
includes the following notes.  It is interesting that the statement
about capitalization follows a paragraph that is in all caps.
---------------------------------------------
"NOTE:  IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A VALID EULA FOR ANY 'OS PRODUCT' (MICROSOFT
WINDOWS 95, MICROSOFT WINDOWS 98, MICROSOFT WINDOWS NT WORKSTATION
VERSION 4.0, AND/OR MICROSOFT WINDOWS NT SERVER VERSION 4.0), YOU ARE
NOT AUTHORIZED TO INSTALL, COPY OR OTHERWISE USE THE OS COMPONENTS AND
YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS UNDER THIS SUPPLEMENTAL EULA.

"Capitalized terms used in this Supplemental EULA and not otherwise
defined herein shall have the meanings assigned to them in the
applicable OS Product EULA."
-----------------------------------------------

BTW, Microsoft recommends that you consider installing the requisite
patch on your computer, if you are running either Windows 95 or Windows
98.  It is a 'buffer overrun' situation.  Quoting the bulletin from
Microsoft:  "Simply displaying the web page or e-mail message is
sufficient to cause the buffer overrun to occur."  There are other
details which might affect your decision.  For me, it was simply
download (a less than 200k file), install, reboot.

Information on the situation at:
http://www.microsoft.com/security/bulletins/MS99-049faq.asp
Patch availability at:
http://www.microsoft.com/security/bulletins/ms99-049.asp

The focus of this note is the issue of capitalization.  Other comments
are merely of an informative nature.

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Sat Nov 13 18:49:57 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 13:49:57 -0500
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.134957.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 05:44 PM 11/12/99, Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
>And yes, prescriptivism inevitably comes into play when we deal
>with such touchy issues, though I try to move from description and
>subjective reaction toward a class consensus of sorts....
>

Methodologically, this confuses me. Do you analyze what people actually do,
(socio)linguistically, or do you and all the students in the class try to
reach an entente about what you think the right kind of people should and
shouldn't do, linguistically? Those are very different activities. Also, it
would be odd if everyone in a class of any size and diversity ended up
agreeing every time that there was a discussion about what people should and
shouldn't do with regard to some specific linguistic issue. Compare the
*divergence* of opinion about "chick," "girl," etc. seen on this listserv
since early this afternoon.

Best, Greg D.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From greg at PULLIAM.ORG  Sat Nov 13 20:06:31 1999
From: greg at PULLIAM.ORG (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 14:06:31 -0600
Subject: dialectizer web page
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.140631.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is a website that claims to translate any URL into "dialects."
The choices are: Redneck, Jive, Cockney, Elmer Fudd, Swedish Chef,
Moron, and Pig Latin.

I'm not endorsing this site, BTW.

http://www.rinkworks.com/dialect/
-
Greg


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Nov 13 19:04:04 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 15:04:04 -0400
Subject: Chick
In-Reply-To: <199911122156.QAA27118@is2.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.150404.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:56 PM -0500 11/12/99, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote
(inter alia)
>
>This doesn't mean there's anything metaphysically offensive about all the
>terms that came to be negatively marked. Note for example that "lady" came
>to be seen as offensive as part of the same process, not because there is
>something offensive about the metaphor involved ("lady" is actually an
>aristocratic term if you trace it back) but, again, for sociolingusitic
>reasons. "Lady" was a term of address used for women whose name one didn't
>know by people without a college education -- cadrivers and the like (recall
>Archie Bunker, a fictional character in the early 70's). Since those who
>were interested in the emergent feminist perspective perceived that such
>folks were frequently on "the other side" in the culture wars, those
>people's terms for women came to be stigmatized in more educated circles.
>Thus the originally aristocratic "lady," which had been employed as a (by
>aspiration, at least) upscale term among less educated and affluent people
>in the pre-1970 period, came to be seen as repulsive and insulting,

That's not quite how I remember that discussion from the mid to late '70s.
Although Robin Lakoff, in her discussion in _Language and Woman's Place_,
did bring up some examples like "saleslady" that might be seen as involving
pink collar jobs, the real objection to using "lady" for "woman" was that
it was a 'pedestal word', used to desexualize women, and as such
functioning essentially as a euphemism.  Thus "lady" was placed in the same
bag as "Israelite" for 'Jew' and "Afro-American" and originally "Negro" for
'black', in each case providing support for the thesis (advanced by Lakoff
and others) that we only have ethnic euphemisms where we would also have
dysphemisms representing our 'true' feelings about the class referred to.
Essentially, we use "lady" because we're REALLY thinking...well, one of the
500 words insulting terms listed in large slang compendia.  If "lady" were
used exactly where "gentleman" was (as in the plural, on some bathroom
doors or in preambles to formal speeches), it would have been considered a
quaint relic, perhaps, but nothing to raise feminist hackles.  It was (and
is) the asymmetry--the use of "lady" and, for that matter, "girl" in
contexts where a man would simply be called a "man"--that prompted the
objections.  I'm not sure that Archie Bunker was really part of this debate.

>while
>"woman" (interestingly, "wife person" if one traces it back) was seen as
>inoffensive because it was the most mainstream and unmarked word in the
>actual usage of that time.
>
Agreed on the sociology, but not on the etymology, or at least it's
misleadingly packaged.  "Woman" is only 'wife-person' if we remember that
"wife" here (wi:f, actually) was then the word for 'female' or 'woman', so
a better gloss for wi:f-man(n) would be 'female person', as wer-man(n) was
'male person'.  Only later did wi:f end up specialized to mean 'wife' (in
the same way that Ger. Frau or Fr. femme have specific meanings of 'wife'
alongside their general meanings of 'woman').  "Old wives' tales" and
"midwife" preserve the earlier meanings of "wife" = 'woman'.

Larry


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Sat Nov 13 22:58:25 1999
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 17:58:25 -0500
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.175825.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:04 PM 11/13/99 Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>That's not quite how I remember that discussion from the mid to late '70s.
>Although Robin Lakoff, in her discussion in _Language and Woman's Place_,

Yes, I was assigned that in two different undergrad classes! (Univ of Mich.
Linguistics Dept, late 70s).


>did bring up some examples like "saleslady" that might be seen as involving
>pink collar jobs, the real objection to using "lady" for "woman" was that
>it was a 'pedestal word', used to desexualize women, and as such
>functioning essentially as a euphemism.  Thus "lady" was placed in the same
>bag as "Israelite" for 'Jew' and "Afro-American" and originally "Negro" for
>'black', in each case providing support for the thesis (advanced by Lakoff
>and others) that we only have ethnic euphemisms where we would also have
>dysphemisms representing our 'true' feelings about the class referred to.
>Essentially, we use "lady" because we're REALLY thinking...well, one of the
>500 words insulting terms listed in large slang compendia.  If "lady" were
>used exactly where "gentleman" was (as in the plural, on some bathroom
>doors or in preambles to formal speeches), it would have been considered a
>quaint relic, perhaps, but nothing to raise feminist hackles.  It was (and
>is) the asymmetry--the use of "lady" and, for that matter, "girl" in
>contexts where a man would simply be called a "man"--that prompted the
>objections.  I'm not sure that Archie Bunker was really part of this debate.
>

I bet that prescriptivistically-driven linguage-change is no different from
human activity generally in the following basic sense: Various people do the
same thing for a variety of reasons. Not everyone who's eating a hamburger
right now is doing so for the same reasons, or would articulate the same
reasons if asked. People who vote for a given political party or candidate
in a given election do so for a variety of reasons, always mutually
contradictory to some extent when there are enough voters involved.

So the possibility or reality that various kinds of reasoning were spoken --
or left unspoken -- during the process of stigmatizing "lady" within one
significant subdivision of the anglophone world in the 1970's actually makes
perfect sense. After all, as people have mentioned in prior messages on this
thread, the general point was to generate linguistic change *as* a social,
and putatively moral, differentiator. I.e., the point was to stigmatize
words, not to make sure that all the reasoning for doing so one everyone's
part was identical and unimpeachable. The only crucial thing was that by
creating linguistic "differentiators," some kinds of speakers hoped to be
able to claim or imply superiority to other kinds of speakers. The important
thing was that sheep and goats should be created, and be made as
distinguishable as possible; that everyone agree on exactly why given words
were stigmatized was supererogatory.


>>while
>>"woman" (interestingly, "wife person" if one traces it back) was seen as
>>inoffensive because it was the most mainstream and unmarked word in the
>>actual usage of that time.
>>
>Agreed on the sociology, but not on the etymology, or at least it's
>misleadingly packaged.  "Woman" is only 'wife-person' if we remember that
>"wife" here (wi:f, actually) was then the word for 'female' or 'woman', so
>a better gloss for wi:f-man(n) would be 'female person', as wer-man(n) was
>'male person'.  Only later did wi:f end up specialized to mean 'wife' (in
>the same way that Ger. Frau or Fr. femme have specific meanings of 'wife'
>alongside their general meanings of 'woman').  "Old wives' tales" and
>"midwife" preserve the earlier meanings of "wife" = 'woman'.
>

We've seen the same etymologies. It's true that, early enough, "wif" more
generally meant female, but a lot of the etymologizing and a lot of the
semantic and connotational analysis that resulted in the whole array of
"1970's feminist stigmatizations" were based not on historically accurate
beliefs about language, but instead on widely held but historically
inaccurate 20th-cent. beliefs about various lexical items. If "history" was
stigmatizable as patriarchal (I heard this many times as an undergrad in the
late 1970's), then to be consistent and thorough woman ("wife-person")
should also have been stigmatized, as I mentioned in the post to which you
are responding here.

But then again, the goal in that epoch was a pragmatic one -- to create
differentia rather than to be logically or linguistically consistent in some
global, dispassionate sense. Some words needed to be left unstigmatized, or
no one would have been able to talk about women at all. That would not have
been desirable, or even possible. According to the analysis that was
proposed, the history of language is the history of culture, and the history
of culture was, according to the then-emergent worldview, patriarchal. It
followed that all words relating to women must have been offensive, if
examined closely enough. However, on a practical level, some words needed to
remain unstigmatized. The idea was to be able to differentiate sheep and
goats and claim moral superiority via linguistic means. The gaol was not to
reveal everyone as goats whenever they talked.

Best, Greg D.


Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sun Nov 14 01:24:06 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:24:06 -0500
Subject: 7th ed
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.202406.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have a lovely new possession -- Black's Law Dictionary, 7th ed. I
splurged and, for the first time, bought the leather-bound thumb-indexed
edition. (Pricey, yes, but cheaper at my Border's @ $69 -- even with 8.25%
sales tax - than at amazon, where it is $76.45 + shipping. My total was
$74.69. I am eager to read and see why Fred thinks it is light years
better than the 6th.

Also -- I am in the market for editions 1-4 if they are in reasonably good
condition and reasonably priced (I went through law school on 5, then
bought 6 when it came out).

Bethany


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sun Nov 14 02:07:31 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:07:31 -0500
Subject: Cold Mountain
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.210731.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Perfect!  I just tried it, and it came through loud and clear for this
curious Yankee.

At 05:01 PM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Beverly said:
>>   I learned something from your comment though:  I
>> didn't realize the Southern monophthong 'I' is [a] and not the low back
>> 'script a'!  I'll listen more carefully next time ([tam], right?)!
>
>I just remembered that I've had a sample of a monophthongal "I" on my
>web page for ages.  I think this is the right file:
>http://www2.msstate.edu/~maynor/hi.wav
>If that doesn't work, go to http://www2.msstate.edu/~maynor/ and click
>on something like "a genuine monophthongal [aI] for curious yankees."
>   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)
>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov 14 03:13:15 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 22:13:15 -0500
Subject: 7th ed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911132015010.299-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.221315.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 13 Nov 1999, Bethany K. Dumas wrote:

> $74.69. I am eager to read and see why Fred thinks it is light years
> better than the 6th.

I thought the deficiencies of the pre-Bryan Garner editions of Black's
were obvious and well-known.  They basically lack information on variant
spellings, parts of speech, inflected forms, etymologies, field labels,
usage labels and notes, derivatives, synonym notes, and illustrative
citations.  They are filled with what David Mellinkoff has called "scraps
of what is said to be law -- Anglo-Saxon law, Hindu, Japanese, Jewish,
Greek, Spanish, French, Roman, canon, ecclesiastical, civil, and something
called 'Old European' law," "disembodied snatches of law French and
Latin," "claptrap from the feudal system ... the armor, the weapons, the
ancient customs.  Page after page of trivia," as well as general terms of
well-known meaning, such as "garden," "horsepower," "martini," and "sex."
On the other hand, the pre-Garner Black's omitted newer (i.e.,
20th-century) vocabulary such as "genocide" or "victimless crime."

Most importantly, Black's definitions relied heavily on undiscriminating
collection of judicial authority as opposed to clear, concise definitions
based on available evidence of overall usage, and often failed to indicate
the range of meanings of a term.

My article, "Linguistic Applications of LEXIS and WESTLAW," 30 Jurimetrics
Journal 147 (1990) has a fuller discussion of all this.

> Also -- I am in the market for editions 1-4 if they are in reasonably good
> condition and reasonably priced (I went through law school on 5, then
> bought 6 when it came out).

The first edition is a rare book that you won't obtain so easily, but Law
Book Exchange has reprinted it (I think they reprinted the second edition
as well).

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 14 01:04:54 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:04:54 EST
Subject: Anti-semitism (long!)
Message-ID: <SAT.13.NOV.1999.200454.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    First lady Hillary Rodham Clinton is in Israel.
    About a day ago, she ran into political problems in the newspapers here when she accepted Mrs. Arafat's anti-semitic rants with a hug and a kiss.  This was supposed to win Hillary New York's Jewish vote!
   A friend of mine who runs a Jewish newspaper said the Clintons are certainly no friends of Jews, that the whole thing is a travesty of...okay, I'll stop.
   The OED has:

anti-semite--ATHENAEUM, 3 Sept. 1881
anti-semitic--ATHENAEUM, 3 Sept. 1881
anti-semitism--ATHENAEUM, 11 February 1882

   It appears that the phrase started in Germany. (Who would have guessed?)  The following reads like some Wagnerian opera.

15 December 1879, NEW YORK TIMES (from Historical Newspapers Online database), pg. 2, col. 3:
   In the month of September last, a few Berliners, anxious to attract attention to their own insignificant personalities, got up a club--the "Anti-Semitic"--for the purpose of provoking an agitation against the Jews.  Its President was an individual named Marr, whose factotum, Groussillier, occupied the Vice-Presidential chair.  Groussillier was an unsucceful dramatic author, who had failed, not only in finding a theatre where his lucubrations would be accepted, but also with a society which he had founded, under the title of the Lessing Bund, whose aim was to blackmail theatrical managers and force his own and his colleagues' pieces upon the stage.  Exasperated by his defeats, this worthy cast about him for some one on whom he could vent his spleen, and finding a willing co-operator in M. Marr, the pair determined to "go for" the Israelites, who had already been held up to public animadversion by the sermons of the court preacher, M. Stocker.  The Anti-Semitic League, not nu!
mbering a great many members, it assumed an appearance of mystery, so as to excite curiosity; but as, unluckily, some of the adepts were necessitous, the secrets of the association were sold to the _Tageblatt_, which newspaper figured at the head of the anti-Smeitic-proscription list.  Great was the ire of Marr & Co., who attempted to deny the _Tageblatt's_ revelations, but all in vain, as this journal brought facts in support of the assertions.  Thereupon M. Marr became blood thirsty, and sent a challenge to the editor for a duel with triply-loaded revolvers at three paces.  Grousillier, who was the second, expected that these deadly conditions would be refused, whereupon he proposed to call the other party "a coward and a slanderer," and was horrified when the adversary's friend called upon him to arrange about the "hour and the spot."  Three visits to his lodgings did not find him, he declined to reply to a written request for an interview, and, finally, backed out altogeth!
er, alleging that it would be _infra dig._ to fight a journalist who had bought a secret from a traitor.  So ended this phase of the agitation, but not the agitation itself, to continue which a species of review has been founded, and, strange to say, finds a ready sale.  Among the measures recommended in this publication, are: Interdiction to attend any theatres owned by Jews, or numbering Jews among their employes; to be present at any performances of Sara Bernhardt--who is not a Jewess--or Marie Heilbronn; to patronize concerts where the works of Mendelssohn or Mayerbeer are given upon the programme; to enter any church in which "are sung the Psalms of the Jew David."  Nor is the New York _Herald_ to be read, because it is affiliated with the _Daily Telegraph_, whose owner is an Israelite; finally, it should be made a penal offense to peruse Lord Beaconsfield's novels, or Heine's poems, and, in short, anything and everything either written or published by a Jew. (...)

2 February 1881, TIMES (LONDON), pg. 5, col. d:
   THE ANTI-SEMITIC AGITATION IN SAXONY.  DRESDEN, FEB. 1...

15 April 1881, TIMES (LONDON), pg. 3, col. c.  "Anti-Semitics" is used.

April 1881, CATHOLIC WORLD (from Making of America database), pg. 131:
   THE PRUSSIAN ANTI-SEMITIC LEAGUE.

2 October 1881, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 10, col. 4:
THE JEWS IN GERMANY
_EXTENT AND PROGRESS OF THE_
_NEW ANTI-SEMITIC MOVEMENT._
CHARACTER OF THE MEN WHO HEAD AND
   WHO ARE BEHIND IT--WHAT THEY
   PROFESS TO DESIRE--THE HEBREWS
   ACCUSED OF EVERY KNOWN CRIME--
   THEIR REAL OFFENSE--BISMARCK AND
   COMPANY--A GLANCE BEHIND THE
   SCENES.
   MUNICH, Sept. 9--The anti-Semitic movement--the Jewish question--it to-day in Germany the one great subject of discussion.  (...)(Long article--ed.)
   (col. 6--ed.) All during the six weeks of his service Herr Kaufmann was continually and contemptuously spoken of by the non-commissioned officers as "Mauschel," a term which corresponds, as nearly as possible, to "Sheeny."

   Speaking of anti-semitism and politics, there's always Pat Buchanan...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 14 08:11:31 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 03:11:31 EST
Subject: Lombardi's "Winning isn't everything"
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.031131.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WHEN PRIDE STILL MATTERED:
A LIFE OF VINCE LOMBARDI
by David Maraniss (author of the Bill Clinton book, FIRST IN HIS CLASS)
Simon & Schuster, 1999
$26, 541 pages, hardcover

       "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing" is on pg. 928 of the
QUOTATIONARY (1962 and 1967 quotes are given), in BARTLETT'S, on pg. 374 of
the RANDOM HOUSE DICTIONARY OF POPULAR PROVERBS AND SAYINGS ("This adage
originated in the United States in 1953, and it is often attributed to
Vanderbilt University coach Red Sanders."), and pg. 533 of the AHDOAQ.

Pg. 26:  "the Jug"--after-school detention.
Pg. 102:  "Eyewash!"/"Jesus Katy!"/"Jeebers Katy!" (various exclamations--ed.)
Pg. 168:  Run to daylight--later the phrase would become the trademark of
Lombardi's offense in Green Bay, but it was conceived in 1956 on the practice
field in Vermont.
Pg. 192:  Misbehaving players on the other eleven NFL teams were threatened
with trades to "the salt mines of Siberia," as Green Bay was known around the
league.
Pg. 206:  The "Green Bay Packahs," as Lombardi called them...
Pg. 318:  "...a second addiction of the people in Green Bay is the phrase
'real great,' which they use as frequently and with as many shades of
intonation and meaning as the French do with 'ca va.'"
Pg. 366:  Although he never shied away from the violence of the game,
insisting that football was "not a contact sport, but a collision sport," he
did not encourage dirty play.  (No exact quote is given.  See my previous
Duffy Daugherty posting--ed.)
Pg. 366:  The signature phrase itself--"winning isn't everything, it's the
only (pg. 367--ed.) thing"--was not coined by Lombardi, and in fact the first
time it was recorded for posterity, it was uttered not by Lombardi or by any
other football coach but by an eleven-year-old actress.  Its etymology goes
back decades before the philosopher coach reached his rhetorical apogee in
Green Bay in the mid-1960s, but the best place to start is in Hollywood in
1953 with the screenwriter Melville Shavelson.  Warner Brothers had optioned
a piece of short fiction from the _Saturday Evening Post_ about a football
coach at a small Catholic college, and recruited Shavelson to write the
screenplay, which he agreed to do after also being made producer.  He sent
the script to John Wayne, who surprised everyone by taking the starring role,
even though, as Shavelson said, the football coach "didn't ride a horse or
shoot a gun."
     The script became the movie _Trouble Along the Way_, which was a box
office flop...
     (Pg. 368--ed.)  "Is winning so important?"
     And from the mouth of an eleven-year-old girl comes the immortal answer.
 "Listen," she responds.  "Like Steve says, 'Winning isn't everything, it's
the only thing!'" (...)  It was from this milieu of Hollywood mythology and
deceit that Lombardi's trademark phrase arose.
     (Pg. 360--ed.)  As to the famous phrase, Shavelson said that it came
from his Hollywood agent, who also happened to represent the colorful UCLA
football coach Henry "Red" Sanders.  "The agent quoted me the line once and
said that he had heard Sanders say it," Shavelson recalled.  "That's how it
got in the script."
     If Red Sanders coined the phrase, as it appears he did, it would be
appropriate. (...)  He was known for his sardonic wit and frequent use of
sayings. (...)
     According to (the Nashville Banner's Frank--ed.) Russell, who continued
writing his column into his nineties in the late 1990s, Sanders first uttered
the winning isn't everything phrase long before he reached UCLA, indeed
before he began at Vanderbilt.  "I remember hearing him saying it back in the
mid-1930s, when he was coaching at the Columbia Military Academy," Russell
recalled.


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Sun Nov 14 12:23:30 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 07:23:30 -0500
Subject: 7th ed
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911132156180.28338-100000@morpheus.cis.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.072330.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 13 Nov 1999, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>I thought the deficiencies of the pre-Bryan Garner editions of Black's
>were obvious and well-known.

Oh, I agree. But since Black's was the best law dictionary available, we
(especailly law students) did not dwell on them. We were very grateful for
those

>"scraps
>of what is said to be law -- Anglo-Saxon law, Hindu, Japanese, Jewish,
>Greek, Spanish, French, Roman, canon, ecclesiastical, civil, and something
>called 'Old European' law," "disembodied snatches of law French and
>Latin," "claptrap from the feudal system ... the armor, the weapons, the
>ancient customs.

Thank you for citing your J. article. And for info re editions 1-4.

Bethany


From c0654038 at TECHST02.TECHNION.AC.IL  Sun Nov 14 13:06:45 1999
From: c0654038 at TECHST02.TECHNION.AC.IL (Alexey I. Fuchs)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 15:06:45 +0200
Subject: Writing question
In-Reply-To: <382CCF2F.24B5E0F1@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.150645.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Please, do not offend programmers. You show a clear case of Wellerism.
The market is overloaded with books on computers written by illiterate
money-seekers. Work with the computers requires some effort. The user
wants to make everything with one finger. The fact that a system, or a
program, or an application is made for the user does not mean that it is
made for an idiot. If you want to drive a car, even with automatic gears,
you have to _learn_ to do it, though it may seem very simple.
Now, you complain you cannot _learn_ because the muddles are impenetrable.
I admit there are jerks in the field who don't care about how the
documentation is written, but this is not the usual case with commercial
products, for support costs much more than development. In good companies,
documentation is written by people who are specially trained for that.
Take Microsoft as an example: they create profitable, user-friendly, easy
to use crap, which, in fact, is not worth a penny. But look at the
documentation: it is brilliant. The user goes crazy.
The point is: just pay attention. Even if a programmer is not skilled in
writing, his grammatically incorrect sentences are logically impeccable.
I beg your pardon, if I slide off the rail, but this issue is hurtful.
And if I see a "computer genius," who writes "press button if not open
window to double-click when scheduler process open dialog boxes," it
pisses me off not less, for it is true that the program is even more
unusable when it lacks documentation.

The best manuals are written by the best experts.
Best books for kids are not written by kids or even by writers-by-chance.
Think of Jacob Grimm and J.R.R.Tolkien.

Sorry again,

                                                A.Fuchs

On Fri, 12 Nov 1999, Bob Fitzke wrote:

> Pafra & Scott Catledge wrote:
>
> > >
> > > I wouldn't be happy if English majors with no training in computers
> > > tried to create an operating system I would have to use on my computer.
> > > Why should I be forced to accept the impenetrable muddles written by
> > > computer geniuses with no knowledge of writing?
> > >
> > > -- mike salovesh                    <salovesh at niu.edu>
> > > PEACE !!!
> >
> > You hit the nail on the head; I always prattle on that the best "how-to"
> > manuals are written by a naive writer with the expert assistance of
> > someone in the field.
>
> My view has been that computer instructions are written by folks who want to
> globally explain everything  the computer can do. They should be written from
> the perspective of the user, the person who wants to do something specific.
> And far too often the instructions use several words for the same item or
> thing; a practice that would screw up a program these instruction-writers
> would construct.  When you think about it, it boggles the mind that thousands
> of teachers daily and successfully give instructions to millions of kids about
> how to do things they, the kids, have never done before. At a fraction of what
> these computer types are paid.
>


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Sun Nov 14 14:59:15 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 08:59:15 -0600
Subject: Books on computers  (was Re: Writing question)
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.085915.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: Alexey I. Fuchs <c0654038 at TECHST02.TECHNION.AC.IL>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 1999 7:06 AM
Subject: Re: Writing question


> Please, do not offend programmers. You show a clear case of Wellerism.
> The market is overloaded with books on computers written by illiterate
> money-seekers. Work with the computers requires some effort.


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Sun Nov 14 18:40:50 1999
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 13:40:50 -0500
Subject: Writing question
In-Reply-To: <382CCF2F.24B5E0F1@voyager.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.134050.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> You hit the nail on the head; I always prattle on that the
> best "how-to" manuals are written by a naive writer with the
> expert assistance of someone in the field.

Having written over 30 "how to" books in my day, I can tell you that the
best ones are written by people who are experts in what they are writing
about, but who also *remember* what it was like to be a naive and
frustrated beginner. Despite their expertise, these writers are able to
get inside the head of the new user and empathize with their plight.
I've written many an advanced book where this doesn't apply so much, but
my favorite books to write are the "Idiot's Guides" that are aimed at
rank beginners. They're incredibly fun and challenging to write, and
they supply off-the-scale satisfaction when someone emails to say that
you've simplified a piece of their life.

Paul
http://www.mcfedries.com/books/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 14 22:17:03 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 17:17:03 EST
Subject: Stealth fat
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.171703.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

STEALTH FAT

   This headline is from the New York Times, 13 November 1999, pg. 11, col. 6:

_F.D.A. Calls_
_For Listing_
_'Stealth Fat'_
_On Labels_

   Just what I need to be worried about!  Stealth fat!  Fat that no one can see!
   There are just a few hits on the Dow Jones database.  The earliest seems to be the Toronto Globe and Mail, 5 May 1998, pg. A1.
   There will be a new "trans fat free" claim for foods containing less than half a gram of trans fat and a half gram of saturated fat per serving.  T.F.F.  hows up on the PR Newswire from 20 October 1992.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 14 23:25:47 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 18:25:47 EST
Subject: "Gentleman's C" & JSTOR
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.182547.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GENTLEMAN'S C (continued)

    JSTOR is the first place to look for "Gentleman's C" because the database contains the _Journal of Higher Education_.  You must type in "Gentlemans C"--otherwise you get "Gentleman s C" and no hits.
    The four hits are all from 1958-1961 (and I don't know why):

JOURNAL OF NEGRO EDUCATION, Summer 1959, pg. 258--"Gentleman's C student."
JOURNAL OF EDUCATIONAL SOCIOLOGY, February 1960 (revision of a paper read at the annual meeting of The American Psychological Association, Sept. 1958), pg. 260--"Everyone has heard of 'the Gentleman's C.'"
JOURNAL OF HIGHER EDUCATION, May 1960, pg. 263--"...gives promise of wanting to graduate college with more than a 'gentleman's C.'"
JOURNAL OF HIGHER EDUCATION, October 1961, pg. 404--"The relative frivolity of the most recent era, with its football weekends, its 'gentleman's C,' its crowded social calendar, and its 'rah! rah!' campus atmosphere, is inevitably waning."

--------------------------------------------------------
MEXICO (continued)

MEXICAN MINUTE--The Dow Jones database has this in the Dallas Morning News, 4-20-1986, pg. 9G.

PEPITO--The Dow Jones database has this in the Houston Chronicle, 3-21-1987, pg. 6, "The waiter said it was not a sandwich, just a Pepito, named perhaps after a plump little cook who invented (no doubt at an American's request) the plump little sandwiches."


From ronnieg at STARGATE.NET  Mon Nov 15 01:52:47 1999
From: ronnieg at STARGATE.NET (Ronnie & Michiko Goodwin)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 20:52:47 -0500
Subject: Non-Standard English/Language/Dialect
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.205247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ADS-lers:

I would appreciate any and all information that you could lend me regarding
my question to you.   If I asked you what is a/the definition of
non-standard English / language / dialect,  what would you tell me?

Yours sincerely,

Ronnie
ronnieg at stargate.net


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 15 02:40:48 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:40:48 EST
Subject: "The Gentleman's Grade" (1907)
Message-ID: <SUN.14.NOV.1999.214048.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"When President Lowell declared war on the Gentleman C, he was acting in the
correct and powerful conviction that the basic attitude toward learning which
it represented was a denial of the purpose of the institution."
--McGeorge Bundy, "Were Those the Days?", HARPER'S, Summer 1970, pg. 560.

     All these citations are from Harvard.
     "The Gentleman's Grade" by William Trufant Foster (Bowdoin College,
Brunswick, ME), EDUCATIONAL REVIEW, April 1907, pp. 386-392, is the leading
article.  It begins:

     "The saying that 'C is a gentleman's grade' is evidently an imperfect
defense for the idler in Harvard College."  So says the report of the
President.  (...)  The grade C stands for Commonplace Lane, no doubt: and, by
a kind of majority vote, it stands for "the gentleman's grade."  All students
like to be considered gentlemen, and a majority would attain no such
distinction if the demands of scholarship were higher.  Indeed the C men
would win every time on a (pg. 387) two-thirds vote.  President Eliot, in
praising what has been done at Harvard to raise the standard of daily work
among the less ambitious students, taken alphabetically from the class of
1905, only 36 attained A or B in even half their courses.

     From AT WAR WITH ACADEMIC TRADITIONS IN AMERICA (1934) by A. Lawrence
Lowell:

Pg. 73 (from a 1910 speech):  A generation ago he was called "grind," but now
he is often referred to as a "greasy grind."
Pg. 349 (from Annual Report, 1931-1932):  We do not hear the term "greasy
grind" or "greaser," so commonly applied to men of high rank a generation
ago.  "C is the gentleman's mark" is no longer a phrase to express a belief,
or excuse indolence.

     From WHAT A UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT HAS LEARNED (1938) by A. Lawrence
Lowell, pg. 69:

     This was the time when "C was the gentleman's mark"; when, in
fashionable groups, outsiders of scholarly rank were as a class often
referred to as "greasy grinds"; when "prizes should be left to greasers."


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov 15 11:43:29 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 06:43:29 -0500
Subject: the last additions to whiting
In-Reply-To: <473F2C465C@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.064329.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, GEORGE THOMPSON wrote:

> 1847:   as the showman says, "you pays your money and you takes your
> choice"
>         Sunday Times and Noah's Weekly Messenger, June 27, 1847, p. 2, col.
> 3; also ST&NWM, July 18, 1847, p. 2, col. 6
>
> not in DAE; nor Whiting, EAPPP; Taylor & Whiting: 1869 (Money, #11);
> OED?

Note that OED has 1845 and 1846 examples of this.


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 15 15:54:01 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 10:54:01 EST
Subject: "You pays your money..."
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.105401.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"As the peep-show man says: 'Whichever you please; you pay your money, and
takes your choice.'"
--NOTES AND QUERIES, 11 April 1868, pg. 334.

    See: www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/ilej.
    This site has Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine, Gentleman's Magazine, Notes
and Queries, and Philosphical Transactions of the Royal Society.
    The fact that "you pays your money" doesn't come up earlier probably
means we're talking about American peep shows (Barnum?).
    Maybe I should do "peep show."


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Nov 15 17:03:16 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:03:16 -0800
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.090316.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does "chick" have any roots in Spanish "chica", or is
its etymology entirely within the English language(s)
and only in reference to an animal?

Can the apparently resurgent popularity of "chick" be
tied to increasing exposure to Spanish, in which
"chica" has a different, less patronizing meaning?

JIM (who's brother-in-law, of Swiss ancestory, was
known as "Chico" all his life.)

--- Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
wrote:
> The women, and thankfully men, who are surprised or
> take offense at the
> term know of the long history of trying to get rid
> of animal-based terms
> for women (far fewer animal words are used for men).
>   So now they're
> coming back!  What kind of connotation does 'chick'
> have for you--little,
> soft, cute, fluffy, playful, high-peeped, to be
> cuddled in the palm of the
> hand?  Is this how you want to be viewed?  And,
> maybe more importantly, do
> only your female friends use this term (mutually, I
> assume), or do your
> male friends use it too--non-mutually, I assume?  Or
> do you call young
> males 'chicks' also?
>
> At 12:13 PM 11/12/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >I am in college.  Now and in high school, my
> friends and I have used
> >"chick", when we are talking amongst ourselves.  We
> do not take offense to
> >it.  Many other women do, though, and some men are
> surprised that we use the
> >term.
> >What is it about "chick" that is offensive to some
> people?
> >
> >-Beth Bradley
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Tom Kysilko [mailto:pds at VISI.COM]
> >Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 1:41 AM
> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >Subject: Chick
> >
> >
> >Further evidence of the rehabilitation of "chick":
> >
> >The cover story of the Fall 1999 issue of the
> Carleton College alumni
> >magazine tells of a young alumna who took a crew of
> high school girls from
> >SF to Baja and back on a schooner.  The title of
> the article is "Moby
> >Chick".
> >
> >
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
> >   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>




=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Nov 15 17:10:40 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:10:40 -0800
Subject: "on the bubble"
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.091040.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've always assumed (always dangerous!) that such
phrases referred to the bubble in a level, transit or
similar tool; "on the bubble" meaning square, level,
true, or plumb, or more broadly accurate, sure, "on
the mark", etc.

JIM

--- Joseph McCollum <prez234 at JUNO.COM> wrote:

> Other subject:  From where does "on the bubble"
> originate?  I know the
> term from the NCAA basketball tournament, but I used
> it saying that I was
> "on the bubble" for a promotion.  A friend asked me
> what it meant, and I
> myself wasn't sure.  The only thing I could think of
> would be some
> insect, perhaps, on the bubble that is about to
> burst.
> The other thing would be a bubble of water that acts
> as a magnifying
> glass -- those "on the bubble" receive extra
> scrutiny.
>






=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Mon Nov 15 20:41:08 1999
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:41:08 -0800
Subject: Chick)
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.124108.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Other subject:  From where does "on the bubble" originate?

Just a hunch: A "level" is a tool used to determine if something is in the
plane "parallel" to the surface of the earth (can't figure out any other way
to describe it!) The "level" has glass tube, (sometimes several so as to be
used for checking "plumb" and 45 degree angles) with a liquid in it and a
small amount of air. If the object being checked is "level" the bubble of air
centers between two marks on the tube. "On the bubble" would mean level.
Therefore, the slightest perturbation would shift the "balance" or alter the
status quo. Applied to the athletic world, I've always taken it to mean that
a team (or someone angling for a promotion) "on the bubble" is a team that
could be picked or not, depending on what other perturbations ensue or
eventuate, as Howard might have said.

Bob


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Mon Nov 15 17:01:07 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:01:07 -0500
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.120107.0500.>

James Smith wrote:
Can the apparently resurgent popularity of "chick" be

> tied to increasing exposure to Spanish, in which
> "chica" has a different, less patronizing meaning?
>

Hey, wasn't this what I just said last week?

Lynne
--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From pds at VISI.COM  Mon Nov 15 19:33:22 1999
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:33:22 -0600
Subject: Chick
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.133322.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg Downing wrote:
>If "history" was
>stigmatizable as patriarchal (I heard this many times as an undergrad in the
>late 1970's), then to be consistent and thorough woman ("wife-person")
>should also have been stigmatized, as I mentioned in the post to which you
>are responding here.

And, of course, it was so "stigmatized" -- by those who gave us "wymyn".



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov 15 20:19:28 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 15:19:28 -0500
Subject: Defusing derogatory language
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.151928.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This appeared in LINGUIST List #10-1728.
I think many readers of this list will find it interesting and have things to
say.
Please reply to the poster, NOT to me.


Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:33:23 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
From: Cote, Sharon A <cotesa at jmu.edu>
Subject: Defusing derogatory language

I have a student who is looking for research on the use of
epithets among members of a minority group originally
targeted by these terms.  In particular, he is interested
in studies of the extent to which the power of an epithet
can be defused when the target group "claims" the word for
themselves.

Can anyone suggest some good references on this subject?

Thanks in advance,

Sharon Cote

Sharon A. Cote
Assistant Professor of Linguistics
English Department, James Madison University
Keezell 221, x2510
cotesa at jmu.edu


From greg at PULLIAM.ORG  Mon Nov 15 20:38:01 1999
From: greg at PULLIAM.ORG (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:38:01 -0600
Subject: Writing question
In-Reply-To: <3829DDC4.52EBEE0D@eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.143801.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are such studies--and I can't find them right now.  But I'm
pretty sure they support the claim that all upper case is harder to
read.

This is strange to me, because at the 4 radio and 2 television
stations I used to work for, copy was always produced in all caps, on
the stated premise that it was easier to see.

I'll keep looking for the study--I know I've got at least a reference
here somewhere.

Greg


>Greetings, all,
>
>Does anyone know of a study done showing whether or not uppercase letters are
>more difficult to read than lowercase?
>
>Thanks for any info,
>Andrea


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Nov 15 21:25:30 1999
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 13:25:30 -0800
Subject: articles
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.132530.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A colleague who teaches Chinese just asked me where she might go for help
in learning how to use definite and indefinite articles in English. I had
suggested some corrections on her syllabus, and she responded by saying
that, because Chinese doesn't have articles, the English articles are very
hard for her to learn. Does anyone have a notion where she might look?
Thanks.

Peter Richardson


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Mon Nov 15 21:17:38 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 16:17:38 -0500
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.161738.0500.>

Greg, I can support that reminiscince from my radio days.  I remember reading
both UPI (now gone, but not forgotten) and AP stories in all caps.  I never had
that much problem reading it, but I'm working on foggy memories from my salad
days.  For those interested, I'm just now finishing my soup and heading into the
main course.

Greg Pulliam wrote:

> There are such studies--and I can't find them right now.  But I'm
> pretty sure they support the claim that all upper case is harder to
> read.
>
> This is strange to me, because at the 4 radio and 2 television
> stations I used to work for, copy was always produced in all caps, on
> the stated premise that it was easier to see.
>
> I'll keep looking for the study--I know I've got at least a reference
> here somewhere.

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                        "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 15 22:54:16 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 17:54:16 EST
Subject: Love Feast
Message-ID: <MON.15.NOV.1999.175416.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

LOVE FEAST

   Hillary's recent 52nd birthday party was described as a political lovefest (NEW YORK OBSERVER).  Governor George Pataki's endorsement of Rudy Giuliani for Senate was also a love feast.  So much love!
   From William Safire's NEW POLITICAL DICTIONARY (1993--hey, is the revision coming out next year?), pg. 422:

LOVE FEAST (...)  The religious phrase was probably introduced into politics by Mark Twain and Charles Dudley Warner in 1873 in the novel _The Gilded Age_, a story about the politics of Reconstruction.  The newspaper in the fictional Washington, D.C., is so much the supporter of the corrupt status quo that it is called the _Daily Love-Feast_.

     We can place "love-feast" a little earlier in the Reconstruction period.
     I've been searching through HARPER'S WEEKLY (the computer index).  While looking for something else, I found this, from 29 April 1871, pg. 379, col. 1:

     _A PATRIOTIC LOVE-FEAST._
     THERE was recently an extraordinary love-feast in the city.  Mr. GREELEY was one of the party, and the ex-rebel General IMBODEN another.  Mr. CHARLES W. GODARD, lately one of the most active Repbulican leaders, took sweet counsel with Mr. JOHN MITCHEL, recently a rebel editor in Richmond, previously an aspirant for an Alabama plantation, and earlier an Irish patriot and exile.  There were other gentlemen present, and all were gathered for an admirable purpose.  Indeed, it is pleasant to read the record of the meeting, and to feel that those who differ so warmly in politics can harmoniously meet and discuss as friends a policy which is truly that of patriotism and peace.  For the object of the meeting was the establishment of a national emigration bureau to assist those who wish to settle in colonies already formed, or to found new settlements. (...)

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

   Doesn't anyone remember that we just discussed "on the bubble" and its origin at the Indy 500?  Check the archives.
   McGeorge Bundy was a teacher/dean at Harvard from 1949-1960.  His "Were Those the Days?" (quoted in my Gentleman's C posting) appeared in DAEDULUS (not HARPER'S).
   Sorry for the error.  I've been working too hard.  I need a vacation.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 16 06:04:28 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 01:04:28 EST
Subject: Ric Burns's NEW YORK (continued)
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.010428.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    I've read the book and I've now seen two episodes of Ric Burns's NEW YORK.
    It's not awful just because of the Big Apple (which it never mentions),
Gotham (which it falsely describes as a mythical city), or the Empire State
(which it falsely attributes to the era of DeWitt Clinton).
    It's not awful just because Ric Burns neglects to discuss anything at all
about New York speech, that he never consulted the American Dialect Society,
that he has actors speak in all sorts of varying dialects, and that he never
bothered to talk to William Labov (author of THE SOCIAL STRATIFICATION OF
ENGLISH IN NEW YORK CITY).
    It's awful because there's this segment in Part II where candidate
Abraham Lincoln sets foot in New York City in 1860, and the narrator mentions
that the song "Dixie" came from New York the year before, and the background
music is Bizet's CARMEN (Paris premiere in 1875)!
    It's awful because we're also told in Part II that Walt Whitman was
playing baseball in the 1820s.  (We're never told that baseball was invented
in New York about a decade later.  You'd think Burns would know baseball!)
    It's awful because:

1.  MISSING HISTORY--No mention of  the explorer Verrazano, the city's flag
(with a Dutch man named "Dexter"),  the John Peter Zenger trial, Nathan Hale,
the Astor Place riots, the Crystal Palace, Clement Clarke Moore's "Night
Before Christmas," Edgar Allan Poe, the Tombs prison, shysters, hookers, the
first tenament building...
2.  OVERSTATED HISTORY--Burns is obviously in love with Walt Whitman and F.
Scott Fitzgerald.  Whitman took up over half of Part II!
3.  ANACHRONISMS/EDITORIALS--Olmstead didn't desire to bar
"African-Americans" from Central Park.  The British were said to have done
"intolerable acts" against the "patriots."
4.  HYPERBOLE--The worst sin of the series.  The grid was "the greatest act
in Western civilization."  The Erie Canal made New York "the most splendid
commercial city on the face of the earth."  Manhattan was "a natural location
for a great city."  The early 1800s immigration "was the beginning of the
greatest run any city has ever had."  LEAVES OF GRASS was not only good, but
"nothing like it had ever been written in the English language."
5.  POOR DOCUMENTATION--When a passage is narrated, it ends with "Barnum" or
"Trollope" or "New York Times."  When did they say this?  In one case, the
quote was for a period before the New York Times began.  Was the quote from
the other paper with the same name?  (BTW, the New York Times sponsors the
series, but that fact was never mentioned in last Friday's review.)
6.  NO PERIOD MUSIC--The Erie Canal was discussed for 30 minutes.  You expect
the famous "Erie Canal" song.  It's never played.  "Dixie" was never played.
You'd never know that there were minstrel shows in New York and popular
Bowery entertainments.
7.  TALKING HEADS--Too many "scholars" are featured, instead of narrating a
story.  And what's Fran Lebowitz doing among them?

     Ooh, I'm so mad...


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Tue Nov 16 14:49:38 1999
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:49:38 -0600
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.084938.0600.>

Alyosha, you have pushed my hot button.  I was horrified when I read the
whole message that appears below: it's too long, it's too emotional, and
writing it kept me up all night. I claim fogiveness on the grounds that
I have been assembling my new, improved computer out of spare parts
without benefit of a manual.

"Alexey I. Fuchs" wrote:
>
> Please, do not offend programmers. You show a clear case of Wellerism.

Please forgive my ignorance -- or my aging memory! I don't know what you
mean by Wellerism.

> The market is overloaded with books on computers written by illiterate
> money-seekers.

You are absolutely right.  Before I buy a book, most especially a book
about computers, I take a very close look at those parts of the book
that deal with matters I learned elsewhere.  If the authors get that
part wrong, I don't wait to discover what else they have done badly. I
just go on to some other book.

> Work with the computers requires some effort. The user
> wants to make everything with one finger.

Maybe some users do.  I use a computer because it helps me get to my
objectives, which usually have nothing to do with computers as such.  A
computer is a tool.  When I get a new tool, I want to learn how to use
it with reasonable efficiency and maximum effectiveness in accomplishing
the work I try to do with it. Most original equipment manuals don't help
the end user learn to use the product.

> The fact that a system, or a
> program, or an application is made for the user does not mean that it
> is made for an idiot.

Of course not. The idiots do the marketing.

> If you want to drive a car, even with automatic gears,
> you have to _learn_ to do it, though it may seem very simple.
> Now, you complain you cannot _learn_ because the muddles are impenetrable.

No, I claim that I cannot learn what I need to know by reading the
manual that comes with the apparatus, the program, the tool I want to
use.  It's the muddles _in the writing_ that I find impenetrable.  So I
stop what I want to be doing and figure out what my new tool can do. I
explore long enough to have a good idea of how it works, and I try to
find its limits by asking it to do more than the item's wrapper
suggests. Several hours or days later, sheer trial and error leads to my
learning how to use two obvious and three obscure functions in the least
efficient manner possible.  Then, and only then, the producer's manual
becomes semi-intelligible, but only for those functions whose abilities
and limits I've already discovered through trial and error.

> I admit there are jerks in the field who don't care about how the
> documentation is written, but this is not the usual case with
> commercial products, for support costs much more than development.

And the companies selling the products find it easier and easier to bury
essential parts of the instructions in plain sight.  At the same time,
more and more companies charge extra for support service. Some only
accept calls for technical support during "normal business hours".  Any
thought that the policy might be as reasonable as it sounds disappears
when you discover that the normal business hours they're talking about
are measured by local time at their branch offices in Middle
Kabumdiddle.  They never tell you that it is customary in Middle
Kabumdiddle to abstain from doing business during any sabbath or other
sacred day in the combined sacred calendars of Christianity, Islam,
Judaism, Buddhism, Confucianism, and Bill Gates.

Yes, support costs more than development.  But not if you  give up
providing support.

> In good companies,  documentation is written by people who are        > specially trained for that.

That is exactly what we're talking about.  Unfortunately, there are very
few good companies.

> Take Microsoft as an example: they create profitable, user-friendly,
> easy to use crap, which, in fact, is not worth a penny. But look at
> the documentation: it is brilliant. The user goes crazy.

I admit that Microsoft's documentation is brilliant when used for its
purpose, which is to drive the user crazy.  After recovering, the user
is forced to try to use the software because it cost lots more than a
penny and it's impossible to escape being charged for it. It then turns
out that the software as provided lacks seventeen essential patches --
which Microsoft will provide when you purchase an "upgrade" whose only
purpose is to correct shortcomings that should never have been inflicted
on the public in the first place.

> The point is: just pay attention. Even if a programmer is not skilled
> in writing, his grammatically incorrect sentences are logically
> impeccable.

I will grant that may be true -- but the logic can only be understood by
people who speak all three of the extinct languages of Middle
Kabumdiddle.  Without that knowledge, it is very hard to know what
action is called for when the instructions say "off grass please be
staying away from unless in condition of A3".

> I beg your pardon, if I slide off the rail, but this issue is hurtful.
> And if I see a "computer genius," who writes "press button if not open
> window to double-click when scheduler process open dialog boxes," it
> pisses me off not less, for it is true that the program is even more
> unusable when it lacks documentation.
>
> The best manuals are written by the best experts.
> Best books for kids are not written by kids or even by
> writers-by-chance.
> Think of Jacob Grimm and J.R.R.Tolkien.
>
> Sorry again,
>
>                                                 A.Fuchs

Don't stop in mid rule!  The complete statement is "the best manuals are
written by the best experts, provided that those experts have taken the
trouble to become expert writers."

Which brings us back to my original question:

I wouldn't be happy if English majors with no training in computers
tried to create an operating system I would have to use on my computer.
Why should I be forced to accept the impenetrable muddles written by
computer geniuses with no knowledge of writing?

-- mike salovesh       <salovesh at niu.edu>      PEACE !!!


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Nov 16 16:10:12 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:10:12 -0800
Subject: "on the bubble"
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.081012.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Okay, I checked the archives.  Interesting how an
expression can have a meaning almost exactly opposite
to what I had assumed.

JIM




=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov 16 16:39:51 1999
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:39:51 -0800
Subject: Writing question
In-Reply-To: <38316F02.98A81E12@corn.cso.niu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.083951.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Right on again!  Go Mike!


From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Tue Nov 16 18:22:53 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:22:53 -0500
Subject: articles
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.132253.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

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From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov 16 19:38:25 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:38:25 -0500
Subject: articles
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19991116132145.006a5d24@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.143825.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:22 PM 11/16/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Peter Richardson wrote:
> >A colleague who teaches Chinese just asked me where she might go for help
> >in learning how to use definite and indefinite articles in English. I had
> >suggested some corrections on her syllabus, and she responded by saying
> >that, because Chinese doesn't have articles, the English articles are very
> >hard for her to learn. Does anyone have a notion where she might look?
> >Thanks.
> >
> >Peter Richardson
> >
>I like Grammar Dimensions: Book Two by Heidi Riggenbach and Viginia
>Samuda. It's for ESL/EFL students and has good explanations and
>interesting and practical exercises in the textbook as well as the
>workbook. I remembered the definite/indefinite article section in
>particular. I don't have Book One, so I can't shed light on that.
>
>It's from Heinle & Heinle of Boston; 1993 is my edition. The series
>director is Diane Larsen-Freeman who is, I believe, quite well-respected.
></blockquote></x-html>


And if your colleague wants more theoretical explanation, she can look at
_The Grammar Book_, by M. Celce-Murcia and D. Larsen-Freeman (2nd ed.,
Heinle & Heinle, 1999)--a massive and very comprehensive work designed for
teachers who must explain such intricacies as def/indef.
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From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 16 21:20:37 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:20:37 -0500
Subject: Writing question
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.162037.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greg Pulliam <greg at PULLIAM.ORG> writes:

>>>>>
There are such studies--and I can't find them right now.  But I'm
pretty sure they support the claim that all upper case is harder to
read.

This is strange to me, because at the 4 radio and 2 television
stations I used to work for, copy was always produced in all caps, on
the stated premise that it was easier to see.
<<<<<

Maybe only because typewritten caps are bigger than typewritten lowercase
letters. Additionally/alternatively*, that may have been simply an unsupported
assumption.

* The pedant's sentence-initial adverbial form of "and/or".

-- Mark


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov 16 23:30:11 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:30:11 -0500
Subject: Cancun drinks, Mass customization
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.183011.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Thursday, November 11, 1999, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>MASS CUSTOMIZATION
>
>   "Mass customization" (of cars) is in today's Wall Street
>Journal, cited as a new buzz phrase.

I'm guessing you're just pointing this out for the record, but it ain't new, that's
for sure. I did a client research report on mass customization in 1996, though the
concept has caught fire lately.

Not having read the story, a hunnert bucks said they mentioned Levi's in it.

[My primary computer's been the shop, thus the late replies].


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov 16 23:58:38 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:58:38 -0500
Subject: All Caps Radio, TV Copy
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.185838.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

As I understood it from my short time in radio, the all caps was a hold-over from
teletype machines: all they printed was capital letters. My guess is that the
easier-to-read justifications came later.

I only believe the easier-to-read mumbo jumbo on two levels: all caps requires the
reader to pay more attention and thus may not mis-read words that have the same shape;
and typewriters were typically limited to 10 or 12 point type, 12 point all caps was
as big as the words could get. All theory, of course.


--
Grant Barrett

http://www.worldnewyork.com/


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov 16 23:58:40 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:58:40 -0500
Subject: Ric Burns's NEW YORK
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.185840.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

Yeah, the dialects: some of the so-called Southern accents sound like the products
of speech coaches rather than upbringing.

It's also bad because, minus crapola images of no redeeming value that stay
on-screen about twice as long as necessary, redundant talking heads, glacial narration and
indulgent pauses, this could have been a tightly edited and exciting show about
one-third the length.

And I know Pete Hamill is a smart guy. I like him, and his writing, and his
toughness. But I hardly think he qualifies to speak as an expert on anything but an anecdotal
level of New York City history (excepting his lifespan, of course).


--
Grant Barrett, who recently found a color television on the street, took it home,
reconnected a single wire inside, and now has a perfectly working television.


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Wed Nov 17 00:17:21 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:17:21 -0500
Subject: Videomalaise
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.191721.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

Came across "virtual circle" but more interesting is "video malaise." From the Scout
Report.

 _A Virtuous Circle: Political Communications in Post-Industrial
Democracies_ [.pdf]
http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/people/pnorris/AVirtuous/Chapter14.pdf

The John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University has
posted the complete draft text of this study of the state of the
media in a technological age by Harvard Scholar Pippa Norris.
Norris's unconventional thesis is that, contrary to the conclusions
of many public intellectuals and academics, the dramatic changes in
the forms of journalism in the last 20 years have not created a civic
culture of cynicism, sensationalism, and "videomalaise." Drawing
heavily on public opinion datasets and statistics about media use,
Norris, in readable and engaging prose, makes the case that, while
the profile of the media has significantly changed in post-industrial
democracies, they are still serving a democratic process: that is,
"public attention to the news media gradually reinforces civic
engagement, just as civic engagement strengthens attention to the
media." The study is scheduled for publication by Cambridge
University Press in the Fall of 2000. Note: figures and tables appear
at the end of each chapter in this online version. [DC]


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 16 23:48:55 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:48:55 -0500
Subject: just now and now now (again)
Message-ID: <TUE.16.NOV.1999.184855.0500.>

Continuing to clean out my files, and came across this:

Wright, Susan.  1987.  "Now now" not "just now":  The interpretation of
temporal deictic expressions in South African English.  African Studies
46:2.163-78.

Her diagram of future time is something like:

now------>now now------>just now------->

Lynne, who's gotten to the end of the alphabet

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 17 05:06:46 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:06:46 EST
Subject: Murphy's Law (John Paul Stapp obituary)
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.000646.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     I had written here a few months ago that John Paul Stapp had been ill.
He has died at age 89.
     This is from his obituary in the New York Times, 16 November 1999, pg.
B13, cols. 1-5:

Col. 1:  He won what will perhaps be even more lasting fame in a test five
years earlier, when he suffered injuries owing to a mistake by a Captain
Murphy.  The result: Murphy's Law.
Col. 3:  Dr. Stapp, who was known for his razor-sharp wit, suffered an injury
in the experiment that inspired Murphy's Law after a somewhat less rapid sled
ride in 1949.
     An assistant, Capt. Edward A. Murphy, Jr., had designed a harness to
strap in the rider.  The harness held 16 sensors to measure the acceleration,
or G-force, on different body parts.  There were exactly two ways each sensor
could be installed.  Captain Murphy did each one the wrong way.
     The result was that when Dr. Stapp staggered off the rocket sled with
bloodshot eyes and bleeding sores, all the sensors registered zero.  He had
been strained in vain.
     A distraught Captain Murphy proclaimed the original version of the
famous maxim: "If there are two or more ways to do something and one of those
results in a catastrophe, then someone will do it that way."

     This is wrong.
     I have tried very hard to verify this story with contemporaneous
documentary evidence, but I didn't find any, nor did Edwards Air Force Base.
Even according to the "official" version of the story, it wasn't Murphy who
had installed the part the wrong way--Murphy commented that SOMEONE ELSE had
installed the part the wrong way.  Murphy also wasn't an assistant--he was
brought there by the sled's manufacturer, Northrop.  Stapp worked for the
government.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
Ric Burns's NEW YORK (continued)

     Episode Three featured the Brooklyn Bridge.  David Shulman's work on
Brooklyn Bridge jumper and Bowery legend Steve Brodie wasn't misused--Brodie
wasn't used at all.
     Also never mentioned were Henry Ward Beecher, Daniel Drew, Russell Sage,
Nelly Bly, the Daily Graphic, yellow journalism, dudes, Tony Pastor, the
Diana statue on Madison Square Garden, the Dewey/Washington Square Arch (seen
but never explained), Grant's Tomb (seen but never explained), Gramercy Park,
Puck magazine (and the Puck Building), Life magazine (and the Life building),
the National Police Gazette, the creation of New York's "Finest," the city
beautiful movement...
    The 1898 unification of Greater New York was "without parallel anywhere
in world history."  We learn that "there had never been anyone quite like
William Tweed."  New York would "become home to the greatest concentration of
wealth in human history" and "become one of the most eerily divided places on
earth."
    The wonderful song "Sidewalks of New York" was sung (without
accompaniment) like a funeral dirge.
    The 1883 opening of the Brooklyn Bridge was greeted with even more Walt
Whitman quotes, fireworks, and the playing of John Philip Sousa's "The Stars
and Stripes Forever"--a march that was first written in 1897!


From LilacRaven at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 17 05:11:52 1999
From: LilacRaven at AOL.COM (Becca Greenhill)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:11:52 EST
Subject: "off the chain"
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.001152.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Recently, I was told that I was "off the chain."  I believe it was a
compliment.  Can anyone help me understand the meaning/origin of this phrase?
 I wonder if the meaning is something close to that of "off the wall."  In
that case, maybe it wasn't a compliment.  Any thoughts?

Becca


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Wed Nov 17 12:06:26 1999
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:06:26 -0500
Subject: Student wants to Study abroad
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.070626.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have received the ff. query from an 11th-grade student; can you
suggest something?

Thanks,
Bethany

>>I am writing to inquire about programs and opportunities concerning
>studying abroad.  I am planning to travel to Japan this summer to visit
>my cousin, whose husband is stationed in Yakuska.  While in Japan, I
>would like to be involved in some type of program for gifted studies,
>student exchange program, or some other worthwhile cause.  I know very
>little about what opportunities may be available to me.  I am sure that
>while visiting Japan, I could enrich myself both culturally and
>academically.  Whatever information you could send would be greatly
>appreciated.  If you know of someone I could contact to learn more about
>opportunities in Japan, please send that information as well.  Thank you
>so much for your time.


From bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM  Wed Nov 17 19:08:12 1999
From: bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM (Bookrat)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:08:12 -0800
Subject: Talk of the Nation -- Regional dialects
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.110812.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Those of you who live in the US and read this before 2:00 P.M. EST might
want to turn your radio to NPR's "Talk of the Nation".  Today's topic is
regional dialects.

Ken Miller
Institute for Unorthodox Orthoepy


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov 17 23:01:35 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:01:35 -0500
Subject: Student wants to Study abroad
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.180135.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bethany, I'm attaching suggestions from a Japanese professor at OU; he runs
our own Study Abroad in Japan, is a native speaker of Japanese, and has
contacts, as you'll see, with similar programs there.

At 07:06 AM 11/17/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I have received the ff. query from an 11th-grade student; can you
>suggest something?
>
>Thanks,
>Bethany
>
> >>I am writing to inquire about programs and opportunities concerning
> >studying abroad.  I am planning to travel to Japan this summer to visit
> >my cousin, whose husband is stationed in Yakuska.  While in Japan, I
> >would like to be involved in some type of program for gifted studies,
> >student exchange program, or some other worthwhile cause.  I know very
> >little about what opportunities may be available to me.  I am sure that
> >while visiting Japan, I could enrich myself both culturally and
> >academically.  Whatever information you could send would be greatly
> >appreciated.  If you know of someone I could contact to learn more about
> >opportunities in Japan, please send that information as well.  Thank you
> >so much for your time.


Hi Beverly,

There are several programs that a gifted high school student might find
attractive. I know just the person for Bethany (or the student) to contact.
She should call
the Center for the Improvement of Teaching Japanese Language and Culture In
High School (CITJ) at (217) 244-4808 and talk to either Barb Shenk or Hiroko
Ito. She should tell either of them that I suggested she call them for
advice about summer opportunities in Japan for gifted secondary students.
University High School (where CITJ is
housed) is a school for gifted students. Barb Shenk, the director of CITJ,
keeps up on summer programs and advertises about them in the CITJ newsletter.

The student might wait until next week to call, since this week is
ACTFL in Dallas. Both Shenk and Ito may be in Texas.

Christopher Thompson
Assistant Professor of Japanese
Ohio University, Athens
thompsoc at ohiou.edu


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 18 00:40:16 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:40:16 EST
Subject: Talk of the Nation -- Regional dialects
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.194016.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/17/1999 3:08:03 PM, bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM writes:

<< Those of you who live in the US and read this before 2:00 P.M. EST might
want to turn your radio to NPR's "Talk of the Nation".  Today's topic is
regional dialects.

Ken Miller
Institute for Unorthodox Orthoepy >>

Speakers: William Labov, Walt Wolfram, and Pemmy Eckert!!!!!!!


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Nov 18 01:35:34 1999
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:35:34 -0600
Subject: Query: "loopy"
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.193534.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     I've been wondering about the origin of "loopy" (= silly, daft), as in
"a loopy idea."
RHHDAS has helpful information about "looped" (drunk) and "go looping" (to
visit bars in order to get drunk).  But why "loop"?

     Was the starting point "go looping," with " loop" meaning roughly
"rounds?"  I.e., might "go looping" originally have meant "make the rounds
" (of the bars)?

     If not, might there be any other explanations?

---Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Thu Nov 18 02:02:48 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:02:48 -0500
Subject: Query: How Many English Words?
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.210248.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

This is  a broad query, but the broad spectrum of answers might be interesting.
Dictionary editors? Everyone? Please reply to the sender, although replies to the list
would be interesting, too.


How many words are there in the English language?

Dana Nagler
dnagler at forbes.com


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Nov 18 02:30:31 1999
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:30:31 -0800
Subject: the verb gank
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.183031.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

one of the consequences of being a Known [Admitted, Confessed,
Acknowledged] Linguist is that non-linguist friends expect you to know
the answer to any random question about language(s), or at least to
have the resources for finding the answer at your fingertips.
yesterday's Ask the Linguist query came from a friend who teaches
at appalachian state university in boone, n.c.:

>Where does the term "gank," for stealing, as in "I ganked
>this t-shirt from my ex-boyfriend." come from? Is it a
>blend of "grab" and "yank"?

my friend was surprised to hear that i'd never heard this verb
before, and that it was listed in neither RHHDAS nor DARE.  i
probed a bit:

>> how long have you heard this verb?  where, from whom, in what
>> contexts?

and she confirmed my suspicion that it was a piece of college slang
(and also added some semantic details):

>I've heard it over the past several months, primarily from
>college students. In asking around about the word today, most
>of my colleagues have not heard it in use. Students say that
>they've been using the word since at least this summer and that
>it is primarly used by college-aged individuals, but might be
>infiltrating down into high schools now. Also, while "ganking"
>clearly refers to stealing, the word denotes that the stealing
>is minor (ganking a roommate's pencil for an exam) or that the
>"victim" won't care (one of my colleagues ganks one of his
>brother's shirts almost every holiday that they spend time
>together). So, ganking kinda means "I stole this, but it
>doesn't matter, so it's not really stealing."

now, i'm no expert on the spread of lexical items, or on slang
(though i once played Dr. Slang on tv in columbus, ohio - a very
limited engagement), but i do wonder if this is a specifically
appstate thing, or if it has wider (probably collegiate) currency,
and if the latter, whether anything has been observed about its
spread.

(as for the semantics, it's close to that for the verb "swipe" of my
childhood.  useful to have a verb with less gravitas than "steal"...)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU  Thu Nov 18 02:59:26 1999
From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:59:26 -0500
Subject: the verb gank
In-Reply-To: <199911180230.SAA12176@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.215926.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    "Gank" isn't an especially new word.  My friends and I in southern
Illinois were using it in high school - four or five years ago - to mean
exactly this.  As I recall, it was used least by the upper-class kids.

    Johanna

Excerpts from mail: 17-Nov-99 the verb gank by Arnold Zwicky at CSLI.STANF
> >I've heard it over the past several months, primarily from
> >college students. In asking around about the word today, most
> >of my colleagues have not heard it in use. Students say that
> >they've been using the word since at least this summer and that
> >it is primarly used by college-aged individuals, but might be
> >infiltrating down into high schools now. Also, while "ganking"
> >clearly refers to stealing, the word denotes that the stealing
> >is minor (ganking a roommate's pencil for an exam) or that the
> >"victim" won't care (one of my colleagues ganks one of his
> >brother's shirts almost every holiday that they spend time
> >together). So, ganking kinda means "I stole this, but it
> >doesn't matter, so it's not really stealing."
>
> now, i'm no expert on the spread of lexical items, or on slang
> (though i once played Dr. Slang on tv in columbus, ohio - a very
> limited engagement), but i do wonder if this is a specifically
> appstate thing, or if it has wider (probably collegiate) currency,
> and if the latter, whether anything has been observed about its
> spread.
>


From LilacRaven at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 18 03:35:09 1999
From: LilacRaven at AOL.COM (Becca Greenhill)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:35:09 EST
Subject: the verb gank
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.223509.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have never heard the verb "gank" used to describe the act of borrowing or
stealing.  I have several friends in Northeastern KY and Southern WV who use
the word "cabbage" in that way.  "Who cabbaged my lighter?"


From kdann at ZOO.UVM.EDU  Thu Nov 18 03:54:05 1999
From: kdann at ZOO.UVM.EDU (Kevin Dann)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:54:05 -0500
Subject: Marguerite Chapallaz query
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.225405.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hello,

Thanks to the many kindnesses of Ellen Johnson, Bill Kretschmar, and other
staff and students at the Linguistic Atlas, I have managed to discover
that Marguerite Chapallaz, a LANE fieldworker who also did a tremendous
amount of the recording of LANE informants with and for Miles Hanley, was
perhaps as close a co-worker and confidant as Guy Lowman had during his
years in London and also over his years as a LANE fieldworker. I have been
trying to track down Marguerite's professional biography, so that I might
make inquiries about her papers. Can anyone give me any info that might
help? I promise to post a Lowman story in return.

Thanks,

Kevin Dann


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 18 04:49:05 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 23:49:05 EST
Subject: TIME OUT NY's Eating & Drinking
Message-ID: <WED.17.NOV.1999.234905.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TIME OUT NEW YORK'S "EATING AND DRINKING"

    TIME OUT started in London, but a (largely unprofitable) New York edition
has been published recently.  The October 28-November 4, 1999 issue had "The
third annual Eating & Drinking Awards."  Also published has been EATING &
DRINKING 2000 (_TIME OUT NEW YORK_ NEW ANNUAL GUIDE), 264 pages, $9.95.
    It's a good way to check out food & drink trends.  Unfortunately, the
magazine is not on Nexis.
    The July 22-29, 1999 issue, pages 21 and 23, listed recipes of these
drinks from these places:

PIMM'S CUP (Blackbird bar)
WHITE PEACH FADEAWAY (Michael Jordan's Steakhouse NYC)
RED CAT COCKTAIL (The Red Cat)
ISLAND PUNCH (Negril)
WHITE SANGRIA (Boca Chica)
RED SNAPPER (A.K.A. BLOODY MARY) (St. Regis Hotel)
PINK LEMONADE (27 Standard)
MOJITO (L-Ray)

    The July 23-30, 1998 issue was devoted to "The top 25 summer cocktails."
>From pages 13-18:

PARTY DRINKS
1. P.M.S. (Local 138, Neil Lacy)
2. Purple Haze (Scully on Spring, Jennifer Hatzman)
3. Trojan (Barmacy, Jennifer Proctor)
4. Bongwater (Burrito Bar, Greg Yerman)
5. Blue Room Martini (Le Cirque 2000, Bill Ghodbane)
NEW CLASSICS
1. Soho Shaker (Magnum, Craig Ziser)
2. Bloody Oranj Martini (Cub Room, Dennis Mullally)
3. Belmont Breeze (Rainbow Promenade Bar, Dale Degroff)
4. Prairie Martini (The Grange Hall, Jacqui Smith)
5. Palmyra (Chez Es Saada, Holly Spencer)
COOL QUENCHERS
1. Pink Pussycat (Candy Bar & Grill, Andrew Currie)
2. Bible Belt (Cowgirl Hall of Fame, Johnny Ray)
3. Akira (Torch, Karmen Guy)
4. Mimosa par excellence ("21" Club, Michael Shannon)
5. Rainforest Tea (The Greatest Bar on Earth, Andrea Immer)
Bollini (Flute, CHairty Rebl)
TROPICAL
1. Tiki-puka-puka (Asia de Cuba, "any bartender will do")
2. Crocodile Cooler (Botanica, Susan Lee)
3. Passion Fruit Bolido Brasileira (Boca Chica, Jack Dammit (sic))
4. Caipirinha (Coffee Shop, Ahmir Araugo)
CLASSICS
1. Red Snapper (a.k.a. Bloody Mary) (The King Cole Bar and Lounge, Bill
Higgins)
2. Southside (Four Seasons, John Varro)
3. Grand Margarita (Grand Bar, Jay Rivera)
4. Bellini (Cipriani, Dino Carafa)
5. French 75 (Bar 6, Henry Lopez)

     I don't have the time to write out each drink, but will be request.
Anyone, this (with my other postings) is a start to recording some of these
names.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------Ric Burns's NEW YORK (briefly
continued)

    Wow, does this thing suck.
    There's one more episode on Thursday (it's supposed to be the best
one--NY in the 1920s) and then Ric Burns does the other 70 years in just two
hours in the spring.  It's all too much, and he does it badly.
    In episode four, half of it was devoted to the 146 people who died in the
1911 Triangle Shirtwaist factory fire.  You'd never know that 1021 people had
died in 1904 in the General Slocum maritime tragedy.
    You'd also never know that New York had a fire department, a police
department, any restaurants, Coney Island, Tin Pan Alley, Broadway, a borough
in Queens...
    I told a librarian that the 1911 opening of the New York Public Library
on 42nd and Broadway would be in part four.  The New York Public Library was
never mentioned!
    Daniel Patrick Moynihan was on hand to provide an insufficent etymology
of "skyscraper" (he claimed it was from ships from Liverpool; the term was
applied to lots of things that touched the sky, but started as the name of a
racehorse).


From mcalvert at ENTERPE.COM  Thu Nov 18 00:10:40 1999
From: mcalvert at ENTERPE.COM (Mike Calvert)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 00:10:40 +0000
Subject: phonetic phumble
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.001040.0000.>

For your amusement and edification, I pass on yet more evidence that the
road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Best,
Michael Calvert-fella
Press Enterprise
Bloomsburg, PA


MIAMI (AP) ? Federal officials hoping to inform Haitian residents in the
Creole language about subsidized housing have delivered a pamphlet
written in an imitation Jamaican dialect.

It?s a tough read:

?Yuh as a rezedent, ave di rights ahn di rispansabilities to elp mek yuh
HUD-asisted owzing ah behta owme fi yuh ahn yuh fambily,? the pamphlet
states.

What the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development was trying to
say was: ?You as a resident have the rights and the responsibilities to
help make your HUD-assisted housing a better home for you and your
family.?

The pamphlet, titled ?Rezedents Rights and Rispansabilities,? came to
the attention of government officials after a citizen questioned its
contents. It had been signed by HUD?s top executive, ?Sekretary Andrew
M. Cuomo fella.?

The pamphlet was intended to inform residents in Section 8 HUD housing
of their rights, responsibilities and the resources available from HUD.
Translations were printed in nine languages and Braille.

Haitian Creole, the national language of Haiti, is based on French,
while Jamaicans read and write standard English. The presumed language
of the HUD document is the spoken Jamaican dialect ? translated
phonetically.


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Thu Nov 18 09:20:03 1999
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 04:20:03 -0500
Subject: phonetic phumble
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.042003.0500.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Calvert <mcalvert at enterpe.com>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, November 18, 1999 12:15 AM
Subject: phonetic phumble


>For your amusement and edification, I pass on yet more evidence that the
>road to hell is paved with good intentions.
>Best,
>Michael Calvert-fella
>Press Enterprise
>Bloomsburg, PA
>
>
>MIAMI (AP) ? Federal officials hoping to inform Haitian residents in the
>Creole language about subsidized housing have delivered a pamphlet
>written in an imitation Jamaican dialect.
>
>It?s a tough read:
>
>?Yuh as a rezedent, ave di rights ahn di rispansabilities to elp mek yuh
>HUD-asisted owzing ah behta owme fi yuh ahn yuh fambily,? the pamphlet
>states.


Cecil's already on it...http://www.straightdope.com/

In other news...spotted McMansion in Doonesbury this morning (18 Nov).

Bruce


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Nov 18 09:29:12 1999
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse T Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 04:29:12 -0500
Subject: the verb gank
In-Reply-To: <199911180230.SAA12176@Turing.Stanford.EDU> from "Arnold Zwicky"
 at Nov 17, 99 06:30:31 pm
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.042912.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> >Where does the term "gank," for stealing, as in "I ganked
> >this t-shirt from my ex-boyfriend." come from? Is it a
> >blend of "grab" and "yank"?
>
> my friend was surprised to hear that i'd never heard this verb
> before, and that it was listed in neither RHHDAS nor DARE.  i
> probed a bit:

I am quite sure that _gank_ was discussed on ADS-L several
years ago (along with _gaffle,_ if memory serves). That was
the first I had heard of it. I'm not sure if we subsequently
uncovered any additional evidence for HDAS.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester at panix.com>


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Nov 18 11:08:30 1999
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 03:08:30 -0800
Subject: "off the chain"
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.030830.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Off the chain" like its recent predecessors, "off the
hook" and "da bomb," is an African American innovation
meaning great, fantastic, wonderful, extremely
exciting.

--- Becca Greenhill <LilacRaven at AOL.COM> wrote:
> Recently, I was told that I was "off the chain."  I
> believe it was a
> compliment.  Can anyone help me understand the
> meaning/origin of this phrase?
>  I wonder if the meaning is something close to that
> of "off the wall."  In
> that case, maybe it wasn't a compliment.  Any
> thoughts?
>
> Becca
>


=====
Margaret G. Lee, Associate Professor,English & Linguistics
Department of English
Hampton University
Hampton, VA 23668
Office: (757) 727-5437
Home: (757) 851-5773
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Thu Nov 18 13:06:57 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:06:57 -0500
Subject: TIME OUT NY's Eating & Drinking
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.080657.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Wednesday, November 17, 1999, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>The July 22-29, 1999 issue, pages 21 and 23, listed recipes of
>these
>drinks from these places:

>PIMM'S CUP (Blackbird bar)
>WHITE PEACH FADEAWAY (Michael Jordan's Steakhouse NYC)
>RED CAT COCKTAIL (The Red Cat)
>ISLAND PUNCH (Negril)
>WHITE SANGRIA (Boca Chica)
>RED SNAPPER (A.K.A. BLOODY MARY) (St. Regis Hotel)
>PINK LEMONADE (27 Standard)
>MOJITO (L-Ray)
>

I'd like to clarify on Barry's behalf that these drinks were not (necessarily)
invented by the establishments listed next to them.

Pink Lemonade is a standard drink taught in bar-tending classes (assuming its the
same Pink Lemonade).

I've had a Mojito in a coupla different bars, and as it is a rum and mint drink, I
think it more likely to have originated in Puerto Rico or Cuba or at least a Puerto
Rican or Cuban bar.

A Pimms Cup can be had about every third decent place, judging by the results of my
friend who drinks Pimms Cups when she can get them (compare to Pink Pimms and Pimms
and Lemonade). Pimms is the brand name.

Perhaps Time Out only meant to say, For these drinks, go to these bars that
specialize in them. At least in the case of the Mojito, the best one in New York City, and
I'm a rum drinker, is at Baraza on Avenue C.

--
Grant Barrett

http://www.worldnewyork.com/


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Thu Nov 18 13:18:31 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:18:31 -0500
Subject: off the chain
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.081831.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Wednesday, November 17, 1999, Becca Greenhill <LilacRaven at AOL.COM> wrote:
>Recently, I was told that I was "off the chain."  I believe it was a
>compliment.  Can anyone help me understand the meaning/origin of this phrase?
> I wonder if the meaning is something close to that of "off the wall."  In
>that case, maybe it wasn't a compliment.  Any thoughts?
>
>Becca
>

Pure guessing: maybe a relation to the chain attached to the large orange
exclamation mark in the sidelines of American football that measures whether a play has put the
ball into first down territory?

I wonder if we searched transcripts of football play-by-play we'd find this usage,
and more.

--
Grant Barrett

http://www.worldnewyork.com/


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Thu Nov 18 13:19:19 1999
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:19:19 -0500
Subject: Webnoize '99
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.081919.0500.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

A conference about online music and commerce...

One speaker brought us this (courtesy of mp3.com):

...He also made reference to the expanding role of traditional retailers as
both offline and online music sources, calling the new model "click and
mortar."

Bruce


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Thu Nov 18 14:42:41 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:42:41 -0600
Subject: Query: How Many English Words?
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.084241.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There can be no answer other than a broad estimate.  How many words in the
OED has no clear answer; how many entries in Webster's Third International
still requires a definition.  Major headings or all the subentries?  I was
told in Elementary school that the word 'run' has 700 meanings in English;
if true, is 'run' one word or 700?  When words become obsolete, are they
still words?  When a dictionary publisher states that 3,000 or 300,000 words
are included, I take that number to mean 3,000 or 300,000 main entries?  And
that bis not the question or is it?  Any dictionary publisher can include
only a sample (high ever high a percentage that sample might represent) of
the word population at a snapshot in time.  If we can define word as "main
entry" in a dictionary and specify whether obsolete and dialectical forms
are included, perhaps we could reach a consensus, but I doubt that we could
or would.  There is no clear answer among linguists as to how many languages
are spoken; obtaining unanimity on how many "words" are in a particular
language is even more doubtful.  I look forward to comments.  Scott Catledge
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 8:02 PM
Subject: Query: How Many English Words?


> This is  a broad query, but the broad spectrum of answers might be
interesting.
> Dictionary editors? Everyone? Please reply to the sender, although replies
to the list
> would be interesting, too.
>
>
> How many words are there in the English language?
>
> Dana Nagler
> dnagler at forbes.com


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 18 16:01:10 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:01:10 EST
Subject: Fwd: off the chain
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.110110.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


-------------- next part --------------
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Subject: Re: off the chain
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 18 15:08:01 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:08:01 -0400
Subject: Query: How Many English Words?
In-Reply-To: <001601bf31d3$2e78ea80$e17a1bcc@pafracat>
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.110801.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>There can be no answer other than a broad estimate.  How many words in the
>OED has no clear answer; how many entries in Webster's Third International
>still requires a definition.  Major headings or all the subentries?  I was
>told in Elementary school that the word 'run' has 700 meanings in English;
>if true, is 'run' one word or 700?  When words become obsolete, are they
>still words?  When a dictionary publisher states that 3,000 or 300,000 words
>are included, I take that number to mean 3,000 or 300,000 main entries?  And
>that bis not the question or is it?  Any dictionary publisher can include
>only a sample (high ever high a percentage that sample might represent) of
>the word population at a snapshot in time.  If we can define word as "main
>entry" in a dictionary and specify whether obsolete and dialectical forms
>are included, perhaps we could reach a consensus, but I doubt that we could
>or would.  There is no clear answer among linguists as to how many languages
>are spoken; obtaining unanimity on how many "words" are in a particular
>language is even more doubtful.  I look forward to comments.  Scott Catledge
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another issue is whether any dictionary would really help us answer this
question.  Even the least abridged ones do not last attested lexical items
formed by extremely productive processes. One from a recent New York Times
sports section, for example, is "Jordanless" (as in a description of a game
the Knicks lost to the Jordanless Bulls, i.e. the Chicago Bulls playing
without the retired Michael Jordan); another example that I use a lot in
class is "xeroxable"/"unxeroxable"/"unxeroxability", none of which will be
found listed (since they don't NEED to be), yet all of which are English
words.  Productive prefixes (ex-, anti-, pro-, re-) are another of unlisted
words (e.g. "to rexerox").  And that's not even getting into compounds.

Larry


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Nov 18 16:36:52 1999
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:36:52 -0500
Subject: RAT
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.113652.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Local Sunday newspaper, the _Sunday Patriot-News_, had an article in
which a RAT program was mentioned.  RAT = remote administration tool.
Led me to recall a conversation that I'd heard several years ago.

While driving my daughter and some of her friends to a movie, sometime
in the early 1990s, one of the girls mentioned something (to the other
girls) about a rat, as in:  "She (another girl) came to school without
her rat."  Some other questions and comments were made about the rat.
Later, I asked my daughter what-the-devil they were talking about.
Found out that in their language, rat = tampon, feminine hygiene
product.

Is the word 'rat' used elsewhere with a similar meaning (tampon)?  Don't
know if high school students in the Hershey area still use the term or
not.

If the word was discussed earlier, and is in the archives, no need to
send a "hey, dummy" message.  The word 'archive' will be sufficient to
initiate my 2nd search of the archives.  [I've looked in the archives,
but didn't find the above usage.]

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Thu Nov 18 16:52:21 1999
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:52:21 -0700
Subject: the verb gank
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.095221.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From: Becca Greenhill <LilacRaven at AOL.COM>


: I have never heard the verb "gank" used to describe the act of
: borrowing or stealing.  I have several friends in Northeastern KY and
: Southern WV who use the word "cabbage" in that way.  "Who cabbaged my
: lighter?"

Verbs i've heard around the BYU campus for the same concept (low-level
stealing) are "kife" and "bogart". I'ven't heard "gank" yet, but i'll keep
my ears open.

David Bowie                                       Department of English
Assistant Professor                            Brigham Young University
db.list at pmpkn.net              http://humanities.byu.edu/faculty/bowied
   The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer


From michael.gottlieb at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 18 17:12:25 1999
From: michael.gottlieb at YALE.EDU (Michael K. Gottlieb)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:12:25 -0500
Subject: the verb gank
In-Reply-To: <006501bf31e5$4cc34280$d123bb80@byu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.121225.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, David Bowie wrote:

> Verbs i've heard around the BYU campus for the same concept (low-level
> stealing) are "kife" and "bogart". I'ven't heard "gank" yet, but i'll keep
> my ears open.

I've heard "gank" and "gaffle" in Northern and Southern California.

Mike Gottlieb


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Nov 18 19:23:13 1999
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:23:13 -0800
Subject: Fwd: off the chain
In-Reply-To: <0.7b13a242.25657cc6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.112313.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Could it have anything to do with the chain as a unit of measurement not
originally related to football's 10 yards, but rather 66 feet? If so,
where has it been all these years?

Peter Richardson


From debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Thu Nov 18 19:20:32 1999
From: debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:20:32 -0600
Subject: FW: help
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.132032.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can someone point my friend in the right direction? Thanks.

__________________
Dennis Baron


-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Rotman [mailto:rotman at math.uiuc.edu]
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 12:47 PM
To: debaron at uiuc.edu
Subject: help


Dear Dennis,

I wonder if you can point me in a direction that will answer
an etymological question. Not the usual sort, because I'm interested
in the finding out where the mathematical usage of "variety"
comes from (it is a technical term widely used in algebraic
geometry). I've tried the OED, with no luck, and I'm not sure
where to go now. The term is at least 50 years old, if not 100,
and so it's not some recent neologism.

Any suggestions gratefully accepted.

Thanks,  Joe Rotman


From vneufeldt at M-W.COM  Thu Nov 18 20:10:10 1999
From: vneufeldt at M-W.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:10:10 -0500
Subject: phonetic phumble
In-Reply-To: <383343FD.E981FE2@enterpe.com>
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.151010.0500.>

This HAS to be a joke!

Victoria

Victoria Neufeldt
Merriam-Webster, Inc. P.O. Box 281
Springfield, MA 01102
Tel: 413-734-3134  ext 124
Fax: 413-827-7262

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Mike Calvert
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 7:11 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: phonetic phumble
>
>
> For your amusement and edification, I pass on yet more evidence that the
> road to hell is paved with good intentions.
> Best,
> Michael Calvert-fella
> Press Enterprise
> Bloomsburg, PA
>
>
> MIAMI (AP) ? Federal officials hoping to inform Haitian residents in the
> Creole language about subsidized housing have delivered a pamphlet
> written in an imitation Jamaican dialect.
>
> It?s a tough read:
>
> ?Yuh as a rezedent, ave di rights ahn di rispansabilities to elp mek yuh
> HUD-asisted owzing ah behta owme fi yuh ahn yuh fambily,? the pamphlet
> states.
>
> What the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development was trying to
> say was: ?You as a resident have the rights and the responsibilities to
> help make your HUD-assisted housing a better home for you and your
> family.?
>
> The pamphlet, titled ?Rezedents Rights and Rispansabilities,? came to
> the attention of government officials after a citizen questioned its
> contents. It had been signed by HUD?s top executive, ?Sekretary Andrew
> M. Cuomo fella.?
>
> The pamphlet was intended to inform residents in Section 8 HUD housing
> of their rights, responsibilities and the resources available from HUD.
> Translations were printed in nine languages and Braille.
>
> Haitian Creole, the national language of Haiti, is based on French,
> while Jamaicans read and write standard English. The presumed language
> of the HUD document is the spoken Jamaican dialect ? translated
> phonetically.
>


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Thu Nov 18 20:18:09 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:18:09 -0800
Subject: TIME OUT NY's Eating & Drinking
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.121809.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------------------------------------Ric Burns's NEW YORK (briefly
> continued)
>
>     Wow, does this thing suck.
>     There's one more episode on Thursday (it's supposed to be the best
> one--NY in the 1920s) and then Ric Burns does the other 70 years in just two
> hours in the spring.  It's all too much, and he does it badly.
>     In episode four, half of it was devoted to the 146 people who died in the
> 1911 Triangle Shirtwaist factory fire.  You'd never know that 1021 people had
> died in 1904 in the General Slocum maritime tragedy.
>     You'd also never know that New York had a fire department,

Oh yes, it was talked about in the context of the Triangle factory fire.  The
narrator mentioned that they had the latest and greatest equipment, most recent
technology, maybe even that they were the best dept. in the country (I really
didn't pay that much attn).  Also noted was the fact that their ladders didn't
reach past the 6th floor, and that their nets broke so they couldn't handle the
jumpers.

Andrea


From LROSENWALD at WELLESLEY.EDU  Thu Nov 18 16:12:06 1999
From: LROSENWALD at WELLESLEY.EDU (Larry Rosenwald)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:12:06 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.111206.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Often, after I see a movie, I find myself talking with - or
arguing with - friends about how well or badly certain dialects are
performed - especially in cases where it's known that the actors in
question are not native speakers of the dialects.  E.g., in _The Insider_,
where British Michael Gambon and Canadian Colm Feore and Australian
Russell Crowe and British Christopher Plummer are all doing various
American accents (I know, I switched from dialect to accent - and accent
is the key term here).  The thing is, though, I'm often pretty uncertain
about the judgments being made - my own, but other viewers' also.  I
mean, what are they based on?
        So I had this fantasy that some ADS group would devise an accent
rating system for film - four stars for Christopher Plummer, two and a
half for Colm Feore, one and a half for Michael Gambon, whatever.  Anyone
interested?
        I'm putting this comically, but I actually think there are important
matters lurking here.
        Best, Larry Rosenwald


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 18 23:32:39 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:32:39 EST
Subject: Query: How Many English Words?
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.183239.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Even though the answer is problematic, the question is not trivial. it has
practical application in dictionary making and importance for linguistic
theory, psychology, educational psychology, etc.

We can give useful answers by being specific. The OED 2nd edition, for
example, has 290,500 entries and a total of 616, 500 word forms (Donna Lee
Berg: A User's Guide to the OED, 1991). Knowing the kind of entries OED has,
we can adjust the number up or down: if we want to count a word only once
even if it's several different parts of speech, for example, we reduce the
number.

It's also of interest how many words are in the active or passive
vocabularies of individuals; how many different words were used by
Shakespeare; etc. I don't have that information at my fingertips but I think
it's available.

- Allan Metcalf


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Thu Nov 18 21:40:24 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:40:24 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.164024.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Thursday, November 18, 1999, Larry Rosenwald <LROSENWALD at WELLESLEY.EDU> wrote:

>        So I had this fantasy that some ADS group would devise an accent
>rating system for film - four stars for Christopher Plummer, two and a
>half for Colm Feore, one and a half for Michael Gambon, whatever.  Anyone
>interested?


I'm in. We could set up a page on the site with no problem, maybe a little polling
station for members or something simple, with room for comments.

Sounds interesting, vital and a way to make accessible discussion of the kinds of
discrepancies we often talk about here.


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Thu Nov 18 23:52:16 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:52:16 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.185216.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Very interesting!  Where did you get your percentages on r-lessness, and
have you published anything on your 40-year analysis?

At 04:51 PM 11/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Anthony Hopkins only gets half a star for his accent as Nixon.
>
>Of the American films I've studied (1930's to 70's) that have overtly
>specified regional origins for a character, I found only three (US) actors
>that made any kind of attempt to sound like that was where they were from.
>
>Of the Brits in American roles, Angela Lansbury is extremely successful --
>of course she came to NY to study acting at the age of 15. Stephen Boyd
>(Fantastic Voyage) gets 4 stars; I only heard a couple of Belfast vowels
>from him. Ray Milland (The Lost Weekend ) didn't sound Welsh in the
>1940's; the only remarkable thing I found about his speech was that he was
>98% r-less, compared to an average of 42% for male American actors of that
>decade.
>
>And then there's Cary Grant...
>
>Nancy Elliott


From elliottn at INDIANA.EDU  Thu Nov 18 21:51:20 1999
From: elliottn at INDIANA.EDU (Nancy Carol Elliott)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 16:51:20 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <01JIHBC152ZM8WZZ3X@WELLESLEY.EDU>
Message-ID: <THU.18.NOV.1999.165120.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Anthony Hopkins only gets half a star for his accent as Nixon.

Of the American films I've studied (1930's to 70's) that have overtly
specified regional origins for a character, I found only three (US) actors
that made any kind of attempt to sound like that was where they were from.

Of the Brits in American roles, Angela Lansbury is extremely successful --
of course she came to NY to study acting at the age of 15. Stephen Boyd
(Fantastic Voyage) gets 4 stars; I only heard a couple of Belfast vowels
from him. Ray Milland (The Lost Weekend ) didn't sound Welsh in the
1940's; the only remarkable thing I found about his speech was that he was
98% r-less, compared to an average of 42% for male American actors of that
decade.

And then there's Cary Grant...

Nancy Elliott


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 19 06:42:19 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 01:42:19 EST
Subject: Pocho, Tourismo
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.014219.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

POCHO

    From the OED:

_pocho_ (Mexican Sp. Sp. _pocho_ discoloured, faded, pale.)  A citizen of the
United States of Mexican origin; a culturally Americanized Mexican.  Also
_attrib._ or as _adj._
1944 _Newsweek_ 14 Aug. 76/3  A pocho in good standing will drag his fititoes
(feet) up the estrita (street).

    I've been going through some materials on Mexico.

SATURDAY REVIEW, 15 September 1951, pg. 61, col. 1:
_Mexican-American Slang_
   (...)  This slang is called _pochismo_ which itself is derived from the
word _pocho_, the colloquial Mexican term for a Mexican-American.  It is, in
fact, spoken not only by thousands of Mexican immigrants in the United
States, but as well by Mexicans living below the Rio Grande.  All along the
border, on the American and Mexican side, and as deep into the USA as Saint
Paul and Detroit, the words the _pochos_ have coined are of current use.
Some words belong to the everday speech of Monterrey and Tiajuana, while
others, carried by "wetbacks," have reached Mexico City.  Undoubtedly, Ciudad
Juarez may well be called the capital of "Pochilandia," unless, of course,
San Antonio (Tex.) claims this linguistic privilege.
     The word _pocho_ became of current use about fifteen years ago with the
publication of Jose Vasconcelos's autobiography "Ulyses Criollo."  To
describe an individual as _pocho_ is a mixture of affection and insult.  The
word was needed and stayed.  Better than any other it describes the hybrid
mixture of U.S. attitudes in the Mexican mind.
     Not a single _pochismo_ has added to the beauty of our Spanish language;
on the contrary the new words are ugly, hard to listen to, and difficult to
read. (...)

MEXICO REVISITED (1955), by Erna Fergusson
Pg. 20  The border speech is _pochismo_, a hybrid of Spanish and English,
named from _pocho_, a slang word for the Mexican-American.  Jose (Pg.
21--ed.) Vasconcelos first used these words in print in his autobiography,
_Ulises Criollo_.  Scholars hate _pochismo_; they say it has added no beauty
to the language.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TOURISMO

    We have:

1953 Aztec two-step
1961 Montezuma's revenge
1962 Mexican two-step

     I couldn't find much.

TRAVEL magazine, May 1953, pg. 15, cols. 1-2:  Old expatriots, however, told
me that they have seen Electropura bottles filled from ordinary taps.  Thus,
the average tourist falls victim to the _"tourismo"_ sometime during his stay
the _"Toursimo"_ being caused by a mild amoeba of moot classification but
distressing dysenteric effect.

TRAVEL magazine, July 1953, pg. 41, col. 1:  Climate, sanitation methods and
food preparation in "manana-land" necessitate alterations in the American's
ordinary customs.  If such precautions aren't taken, the unwary eater and
drinker may easily fall victim to a common ailment known to menu-wise
Mexicans as _Turismo_.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MISC.

    Over a year ago, I suggested adding "Dialect Oscars" to our
"Word-of-the-Year" awards.  It's free press for the ADS in all those
entertainment sections--we'd get new members.  No one was interested.
     Those _Time Out New York_ drinks are definitely _served_ at those bars,
which may-or-may-not have invented the drinks....Passion Fruit Batida
Brasileira was read incorrectly (as "Bolido").
     This NEW YORK documentary is over!  I'm free!
     The final episode was the same as the others.  "There had never been
anyone quite like Al Smith"--all the bad prose was back!  The extended focus
was on the stock market crash and the Empire State Building (and what F.
Scott Fitzgerald thought about them), leaving out the George Washington
Bridge, the Holland Tunnel, the New York Yankees, Jack Dempsey, horseracing,
vaudeville, Jimmy Walker, Fiorello LaGuardia, the 21 Club, Jimmy Durante,
Legs Diamond, Texas Guinan, the New York Graphic, the Daily News...
     I had meant to say that documentary ignored the fire department _until
the 1911 fire_ (when we finally learn there was an NYFD!).  As David Shulman
pointed out in American Speech, it was the great 19th century character of
Mose the fireman that helped to popularize the New York dialect
("Brooklynese").  It was from a fire company that William Tweed (and
cartoonist Thomas Nast) created the Tammany tiger.
    Here are some reviews of a program/book that never once mentions the Big
Apple:

ALBANY TIMES UNION:  Burns unreels the Big Apple.
CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR:  The Big Apple of Ric Burns's eye.
SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE:  Really Big Documentary on Big Apple.
COMMONWEAL:  ...the new program zeroes in on the Big Apple...
USA TODAY:  ...a lot of Big Apple to swallow.
CHICAGO TRIBUNE:  Even Chicagoans who have a bias against the Big Apple
should come away impressed...
HOUSTON CHRONICLE:  Ric Burns' television history is bigger than the Big
Apple.
PEOPLE WEEKLY:  The Big Apple's all here, and it's awesome.


From fodde at UNICA.IT  Fri Nov 19 08:32:10 1999
From: fodde at UNICA.IT (Luisanna Fodde)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:32:10 +0100
Subject: English Dialects
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.093210.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'd like to have some information on English dialects in the UK. What is the
most relevant bibliography?
Thanks
Luisanna Fodde
University of Cagliari
Italy
fodde at unica.it


From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Fri Nov 19 12:00:15 1999
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron Drews)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:00:15 +0000
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <01JIHBC152ZM8WZZ3X@WELLESLEY.EDU>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.120015.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Larry Rosenwald wrote:
}        So I had this fantasy that some ADS group would devise an accent
}rating system for film - four stars for Christopher Plummer, two and a
}half for Colm Feore, one and a half for Michael Gambon, whatever.  Anyone
}interested?
}        I'm putting this comically, but I actually think there are important
}matters lurking here.

Sounds like fun.

How would one classify caricatures as opposed to imitation/attempts?  The
reason I ask is because there's an Irish actor (don't know his name,
played in _First Knight_ with Connery and Greere)  who plays an American
in a BBC mini-series about a photograph collection.  He has most of the
phonology down pat (being rhotic helps a lot), and he convinced most of
the people I know here.  But, to me, it sounds like he learned his
American from the "Charlie Sheen, Navy Seal School of English".  I found
it to be a not-quite-on-target caricature because of that.

Speaking of Charlie Sheen, I'd give Cary Elywes three and a half stars
for his various American roles (Hot Shots, Twister, the other army one
with Kelsy Grammer)

I'd give Gweneth Paltrow at least fours stars for _Shakespeare in Love_
(I've heard "she's American???!!!???" countless times).

Mel Gibson, two stars for William Wallace.

And Kevin Costner.... nil

--Aaron



 =======================================================================
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                  Departments of English Language and
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron       Theoretical & Applied  Linguistics

"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From elliottn at INDIANA.EDU  Fri Nov 19 14:41:47 1999
From: elliottn at INDIANA.EDU (Nancy Carol Elliott)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:41:47 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991118185211.00b99100@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.094147.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm just finishing my dissertation on the subject of rhoticity in American
film speech from the 30's to the 70's. I collected data on about 50
subjects per decade (4-year period in a decade's midpoint) and got a
decade average from each subject's percentage of r-lessness. The decade
average decreases steadily from the 30's to the 70's (59 -> 43 -> 33 -> 22
-> 7), with interesting differences between female and male subjects.

(Correction: Ray Milland's r-less rate is 92, not 98. And John Wayne's,
incidentally, is 4.)

Nancy Elliott

On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> Very interesting!  Where did you get your percentages on r-lessness, and
> have you published anything on your 40-year analysis?
>
> At 04:51 PM 11/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >Anthony Hopkins only gets half a star for his accent as Nixon.
> >
> >Of the American films I've studied (1930's to 70's) that have overtly
> >specified regional origins for a character, I found only three (US) actors
> >that made any kind of attempt to sound like that was where they were from.
> >
> >Of the Brits in American roles, Angela Lansbury is extremely successful --
> >of course she came to NY to study acting at the age of 15. Stephen Boyd
> >(Fantastic Voyage) gets 4 stars; I only heard a couple of Belfast vowels
> >from him. Ray Milland (The Lost Weekend ) didn't sound Welsh in the
> >1940's; the only remarkable thing I found about his speech was that he was
> >98% r-less, compared to an average of 42% for male American actors of that
> >decade.
> >
> >And then there's Cary Grant...
> >
> >Nancy Elliott
>


From LROSENWALD at WELLESLEY.EDU  Fri Nov 19 14:56:06 1999
From: LROSENWALD at WELLESLEY.EDU (Larry Rosenwald)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 09:56:06 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.095606.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        So this dissertation of yours sounds fascinating, Nancy!  Do you
talk about more general aspects of American film speech, too?  And how (and
when ) could one get a copy?  Best, Larry Rosenwald


From coady at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 19 16:15:39 1999
From: coady at OHIOU.EDU (James Coady)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 11:15:39 -0500
Subject: How Many Words
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.111539.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


The following is excerpted from chapter 14 in Second Language Vocabulary
Acquisition, 1997, edited
by J. Coady and T. Huckin  Cambridge U. Press.

Lexicon Size Research

                 There is also a significant disagreement in the literature
over the total amount of vocabulary known by a university educated native
speaker, i.e. the target of English for academic purposes.  These arguments
are important because they tend to be a major determinant of a given
teacher's philosophy about vocabulary instruction.  For example, if one
believes that educated university native speakers tend to know 50,000 to
100,000 words, then it is seems useless to try to teach a tiny subset of
that amount.  On the other hand, if one believes that university students
tend to know about 16,000 base words, then teaching a thousand or so words
does not seem like such a bad idea.

                 For example, Nagy et Anderson (1984) estimated that there
are 85,533 word families in printed school English (grades 3-9).  They
counted as one word family semantically and morphologically related words
such as enthusiast, enthusiasts, and enthusiasm.

                 In contrast, Goulden, Nation, & Read (1990) estimate that
an average native speaker English speaking university student has a
vocabulary of 17,000 word families (a base-form and its derived forms)

                 D'Anna, Zechmeister, & Hall (1991) based their study upon
the Oxford American Dictionary (OAD) from which they eliminated proper
names, archaic words, technical terms, etc. in order to form a corpus of
what they call functionally important words.  They then asked their
subjects to choose from a five-point scale how well they felt they knew a
sample of almost 200 words from the OAD.  They then extrapolated from these
results and concluded that the average number of different words known by a
university student is 16,785.  Some further issues were explored in two
follow-up studies, Zechmeister, D'Anna, Hall, Hall, & Smith (1993) and
Zechmeister, Chronis, Cull, D'Anna, & Healy (1995).  For example, in the
latter study the subjects were given multiple choice tests to determine how
accurate their self-rating was.  They found that subjects typically
overestimated their knowledge, particularly when there were difficult
distracters.  Moreover, they again extrapolated from their data that junior
high students knew fewer words (9,684) than freshmen college students (16,
679) than older adults (21,252).

                 Meara (chapter 2, this volume) discusses how difficult it
is to carry out effective research on measuring the size of the lexicon and
proposes the use of some standardized vocabulary tests which he has
developed.  They are simple to administer and remarkably sensitive to
knowledge across a range of different frequency bands or a range of
different specialist areas of lexis.  Further he argues that as the lexicon
grows, organization becomes a more significant factor than size.  He
therefore proposes a standardized measure of the relative organization of
the lexicon.  Finally, he feels that both measures together can be a method
of assessing overall lexical competence.



Graduate Chair          Phone:  (740) 593-4566
Department of Linguistics       Fax:  (740) 593-2967
Ohio University
<http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/coady.htm>http<http://www.cats.o
hiou.edu/linguistics/dept/coady.htm>://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/c
oady.htm
Athens, OH  45701               E-mail: coady at ohiou.edu
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From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Fri Nov 19 16:36:43 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 08:36:43 -0800
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.083643.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Aaron Drews <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK> wrote:

> And Kevin Costner.... nil
>
> --Aaron

Aaron,

Just what kind of an accent would the "real" Robin
Hood have had?  Certainly not that of Errol Flynn or
Cary "I have an English accent" Elwes!  I suspect
Kevin sounded as close to authentic as any other
actor!

JIM





__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Fri Nov 19 15:39:32 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 10:39:32 -0500
Subject: How Many Words
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.103932.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Where/when, incidentally, did the term "word families" arise?

Lynne Murphy
Baylor University
----------
From: James Coady <coady at OHIOU.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: How Many Words
Date: Fri, Nov 19, 1999, 11:15 AM


The following is excerpted from chapter 14 in Second Language Vocabulary
Acquisition, 1997, edited by J. Coady and T. Huckin  Cambridge U. Press.

Lexicon Size Research

                There is also a significant disagreement in the literature
over the total amount of vocabulary known by a university educated native
speaker, i.e. the target of English for academic purposes.  These arguments
are important because they tend to be a major determinant of a given
teacher?s philosophy about vocabulary instruction.  For example, if one
believes that educated university native speakers tend to know 50,000 to
100,000 words, then it is seems useless to try to teach a tiny subset of
that amount.  On the other hand, if one believes that university students
tend to know about 16,000 base words, then teaching a thousand or so words
does not seem like such a bad idea.

                For example, Nagy et Anderson (1984) estimated that there
are 85,533 word families in printed school English (grades 3-9).  They
counted as one word family semantically and morphologically related words
such as enthusiast, enthusiasts, and enthusiasm.

                In contrast, Goulden, Nation, & Read (1990) estimate that an
average native speaker English speaking university student has a vocabulary
of 17,000 word families (a base-form and its derived forms)

                D?Anna, Zechmeister, & Hall (1991) based their study upon
the Oxford American Dictionary (OAD) from which they eliminated proper
names, archaic words, technical terms, etc. in order to form a corpus of
what they call functionally important words.  They then asked their subjects
to choose from a five-point scale how well they felt they knew a sample of
almost 200 words from the OAD.  They then extrapolated from these results
and concluded that the average number of different words known by a
university student is 16,785.  Some further issues were explored in two
follow-up studies, Zechmeister, D?Anna, Hall, Hall, & Smith (1993) and
Zechmeister, Chronis, Cull, D?Anna, & Healy (1995).  For example, in the
latter study the subjects were given multiple choice tests to determine how
accurate their self-rating was.  They found that subjects typically
overestimated their knowledge, particularly when there were difficult
distracters. Moreover, they again extrapolated from their data that junior
high students knew fewer words (9,684) than freshmen college students (16,
679) than older adults (21,252).

                Meara (chapter 2, this volume) discusses how difficult it is
to carry out effective research on measuring the size of the lexicon and
proposes the use of some standardized vocabulary tests which he has
developed. They are simple to administer and remarkably sensitive to
knowledge across a range of different frequency bands or a range of
different specialist areas of lexis.  Further he argues that as the lexicon
grows, organization becomes a more significant factor than size.  He
therefore proposes a standardized measure of the relative organization of
the lexicon.  Finally, he feels that both measures together can be a method
of assessing overall lexical competence.



Graduate Chair          Phone: (740) 593-4566
Department of Linguistics       Fax: (740) 593-2967
Ohio University http <http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/coady.htm>
://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/coady.htm
<http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/coady.htm>
Athens, OH 45701               E-mail: coady at ohiou.edu
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From aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK  Fri Nov 19 17:14:00 1999
From: aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK (Aaron Drews)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:14:00 +0000
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <19991119163643.22550.rocketmail@web1303.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.171400.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 19 Nov 1999, James Smith wrote:

}--- Aaron Drews <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK> wrote:
}
}> And Kevin Costner.... nil
}>
}> --Aaron
}
}Aaron,
}
}Just what kind of an accent would the "real" Robin
}Hood have had?  Certainly not that of Errol Flynn or
}Cary "I have an English accent" Elwes!  I suspect
}Kevin sounded as close to authentic as any other
}actor!
}
}JIM

I would expect the real Earl of Sherwood would have had some sort of
Mercian dialect of early Middle English.  So, yes, Costner would have
sounded as authentic as anybody else nowadays.  I have to admit, I'd love
to see a production of Robin Hood in any dialect of Middle English.  And,
of course, the _real_ story of Robin Hood, too.

But, don't blame me for Hollywood's thinking that anything that takes
place in England (Robin Hood, King Arthur, Shakespeare) must be spoken in
a mainstream (ie, RP, Estuary, Cockney, etc) accent rather than early
Middle English, ancient Welsh or early Modern English.  It's by that
definition I was judging Costner (et al).

--Aaron



 =======================================================================
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                  Departments of English Language and
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron       Theoretical & Applied  Linguistics

"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 19 18:54:35 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 13:54:35 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.135435.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I gather you looked not only at "outsiders" playing Americans (and vice
versa?) but also at Americans representing Americans.  Apparently you
correlated degree of r-lessness with both the region/locale of the film
plot and the  regional origin of the character in question?  Did you also
consider social class, education, and age?  (You considered gender, as you
note.)  The steady decline from 1930 to 1970 would go along with Labov's
findings on post-WWII New York (for some classes); but what about Boston or
Deep South settings?  Ray Milland could play a prototypical middle-class
New Yorker of our parents' or grandparents' generation; Kevin Spacey of
"Midnight in..." represents a younger but upper class Southerner
(post-'70s, of course).  And John Wayne's 4% r-lessness would be reasonable
in light of Hartman's (19??) suggestion of semi-r-lessness in the Southwest
(Wayne's cowboy country).  Only 3 American "authentics" (my term) seems low
to me.  But I'm assuming you looked at all these sociolinguistic
factors!  Where did you do the dissertation?

At 09:41 AM 11/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm just finishing my dissertation on the subject of rhoticity in American
>film speech from the 30's to the 70's. I collected data on about 50
>subjects per decade (4-year period in a decade's midpoint) and got a
>decade average from each subject's percentage of r-lessness. The decade
>average decreases steadily from the 30's to the 70's (59 -> 43 -> 33 -> 22
>-> 7), with interesting differences between female and male subjects.
>
>(Correction: Ray Milland's r-less rate is 92, not 98. And John Wayne's,
>incidentally, is 4.)
>
>Nancy Elliott
>
>On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
> > Very interesting!  Where did you get your percentages on r-lessness, and
> > have you published anything on your 40-year analysis?
> >
> > At 04:51 PM 11/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Anthony Hopkins only gets half a star for his accent as Nixon.
> > >
> > >Of the American films I've studied (1930's to 70's) that have overtly
> > >specified regional origins for a character, I found only three (US) actors
> > >that made any kind of attempt to sound like that was where they were from.
> > >
> > >Of the Brits in American roles, Angela Lansbury is extremely successful --
> > >of course she came to NY to study acting at the age of 15. Stephen Boyd
> > >(Fantastic Voyage) gets 4 stars; I only heard a couple of Belfast vowels
> > >from him. Ray Milland (The Lost Weekend ) didn't sound Welsh in the
> > >1940's; the only remarkable thing I found about his speech was that he was
> > >98% r-less, compared to an average of 42% for male American actors of that
> > >decade.
> > >
> > >And then there's Cary Grant...
> > >
> > >Nancy Elliott
> >


From sllauns at CWIS.ISU.EDU  Fri Nov 19 19:53:19 1999
From: sllauns at CWIS.ISU.EDU (Sonja L Launspach)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 12:53:19 -0700
Subject: dialects and composition
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.125319.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of my students is doing research on dialect features that show up in
student writing. She hasn't been able to find anything recent on this
topic. She is looking for information on:
1. which dialect features tend to show up in students' writing
2. What specific strategies people have come up with to help students
"bridge" to SWE (standard written English)
3. Who the current experts are in this field.

She'd appreciate any help. Please email your responses to her at
kurtpatt at isu.edu

Thanks
Sonja

_______________________________________________________________________
Sonja Launspach
Assistant Professor Linguistics
Dept.of English & Philosophy
Idaho State University
Pocatello, ID 83209
208-236-2478
fax:208-236-4472
email: sllauns at isu.edu


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 19 21:16:27 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:16:27 EST
Subject: How Many Words
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.161627.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Andrea Vine posted a contribution on this topic to this list on March 24,
1999. - Allan Metcalf


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov 19 21:16:56 1999
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:16:56 -0500
Subject: the verb gank
In-Reply-To: <0.f1f36b1f.2564cded@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.161656.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Becca Greenhill writes:  I have never heard the verb "gank" used to
describe the act of borrowing or stealing.  I have several friends in
Northeastern KY and Southern WV who use the word "cabbage" in that
way.  "Who cabbaged my lighter?"

"Cabbage" = "Steal" is quite an old word.  I had noted a source from
1841, and was chagined to see that RHHDAS listed it from 1806.  As I
recall, it originally was used by tailors to refer to stealing pieces
of cloth.  This was the sense of my 1841 source.

GAT


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 19 21:46:25 1999
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:46:25 -0500
Subject: How Many Words
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.164625.0500.>

great excerpt, Jim!  thanks!

-- db
___________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl            Ohio University /Athens       tel: (740) 593-2783
home page: http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl    fax: (740) 593-2818


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 19 23:21:59 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:21:59 EST
Subject: Peep show; Pokemon; Pitza; Trillion; Alphabet stock
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.182159.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PEEP SHOW

"This ain't no peep show."
--ad in today's New York City newspapers for the new LOEWS 42nd St. E Walk's
13 screens.

     OED has "peep show" from 1851.
     The Literature Online database has John Hamilton Reynolds, THE PRESS
(1822):

Whilst Brewster each one's optic nerves delights
By his famed peep-show and its varying sights.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
POKEMON

     The movie is out.  Pokemon is hot, hot, hot.
     Pokemon words have included Pokemania, Pokevesting, Pokelimia (NY
Observer, Nov. 22)...
     The words will probably last as short as the craze.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PITZA (A "HYBREAD")

     From the New York Daily News, "The Top 40" restaurants, 19 November
1999, pg. 78, col. 1:

Under $10
(...) 2. Zaytoons
Pitza is a "hybread" of pita and pizza.  The definitive combo is the
lahambajin, comprising ground lamb, onion, tomato and spices.  There's also a
Middle Eastern version (lamb, merguez, parsley).  Or you can stick with the
Italian (tomato sauce, mozzarella, garlic).  283 Smith St., at Sackett St.,
Brooklyn, (718) 875-1880.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TRILLION

     From Sports Illustrated, 22 November 1999, pg. 66, col. 2:

_. Avoid the dread "trillion."_  In other words, if for some reason you can't
get off a shot, do _something_!  In garbage-time lingo, _trillion_ is the
line  in the box score a player gets when his minutes-played stat is followed
by zeros in the nine other categories.  "A trillion means you played, but you
didn't do anything," says Vancouver Grizzlies assistant Lionel Hollins, who
was an NBA guard for 10 seasons.  "No shots attempted or made, no assists, no
rebounds, no fouls, nothing."  If he still has a trillion in the final
seconds, the experienced garbage-time player will commit misdemeanor assault
to break up his zeros with a "1" in the personal foul column.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
ALPHABET STOCK

     From the New York Law Journal, 18 November 1999, pg. 1, col. 1:

_The ABCs of Tracking Stock_
     The use of "alphabet" or "tracking" stock provides an interesting and
innovative corporate financing technique.  The theory behind the vehicle is
that several objectives can be achieved by separately identifying businesses
within a corporation and tracking their financial performance independently.
     The purpose of this article is to briefly examine the history of
alphabet stock, consider the advantages and disadvantages of such a security
and provide some guidance on the issues that arise in drafting such an
instrument.
     The first transaction to achieve national recognition and, perhaps, coin
the term "alphabet stock" was General Motors purchase of Ross Perot's EDS in
1984.

     I gotta check "alphabet stock" on my mini-Nexis.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Fri Nov 19 23:53:29 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 15:53:29 -0800
Subject: Alphabet stock, turistas
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.155329.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>      The first transaction to achieve national recognition and, perhaps, coin
> the term "alphabet stock" was General Motors purchase of Ross Perot's EDS in
> 1984.

I used to own that stock - GM Class E.

In another email Barry listed "turismo" for the intestinal problem foreigners
get when in Mexico.  In Texas, we always knew it as "turistas" (not sure of the
spelling).

Andrea


From sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU  Sat Nov 20 00:07:17 1999
From: sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. Roly Sussex)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 10:07:17 +1000
Subject: oofle dust
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.100717.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is the phrase "oofle dust" or perhaps "uffle dust" used in the US?
There are 4 hits on the Web for oofle dust, and a listener to
Aust. radio reports "uffle dust" from Canada. It seems to be a magic
substance which you sprinkle around to make things happen. I can't
find any references.
Thanks
Roly Sussex
The University of Queensland


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Sat Nov 20 00:17:21 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:17:21 -0800
Subject: oofle dust
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.161721.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Prof. Roly Sussex" wrote:
>
> Is the phrase "oofle dust" or perhaps "uffle dust" used in the US?
> There are 4 hits on the Web for oofle dust, and a listener to
> Aust. radio reports "uffle dust" from Canada. It seems to be a magic
> substance which you sprinkle around to make things happen. I can't
> find any references.

Fairy dust.  Often we just wave a magic wand over things. (Magic wand. Good
device. Will use more later.)

Andrea


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Sat Nov 20 02:33:33 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 18:33:33 -0800
Subject: ear candy
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.183333.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

All,
While I know we've discussed the "candy" phrases before, I don't remember the
print origin of ear candy as being that described on the Merriam-Webster site
today (http://www.m-w.com):


                     "Ear candy" made its debut (in print, at least) as the
title of
                     a 1977 album by pop singer Helen Reddy. The album has
                     long since faded from the charts, but the term endures and
                     it is now used widely enough to have gained entry into
                     abridged dictionaries. Although "ear candy" is sometimes
                     used critically to describe tunes that are considered
                     "gooey," "sweet," or "saccharine," the people who make the
                     music and their fans find it tasty. As one 90s band member
                     sagely put it, does it really matter if ear candy "isn't
about
                     the secret of life"?

"I am Woman; ear me roar."
-- elen Reddy

Andrea Vine
Sun-Netscape Alliance i18n architect
avine at eng.sun.com
I always wanted to be an architect. }sigh{  Of course, I _am_ an architect.


From bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU  Sat Nov 20 02:49:46 1999
From: bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU (BRITTANY M. BARBER)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 20:49:46 CST
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.991119114328.8675F-100000@pisa.ling.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.204946.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm game.


From bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU  Sat Nov 20 02:54:49 1999
From: bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU (BRITTANY M. BARBER)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 20:54:49 CST
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.991119165727.15124A-100000@pisa.ling.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.205449.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You know what accent I'd like to see promoted before it shrivels
up and dies, and every American talks like they're from the midwest?
The old timey antebellum south mouth.  Do you predict it fading long
gone within the next decade or so?


From bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU  Sat Nov 20 02:57:42 1999
From: bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU (BRITTANY M. BARBER)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 20:57:42 CST
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.991119165727.15124A-100000@pisa.ling.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.19.NOV.1999.205742.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just wanted to recommend another splen-did book.  Randy Harris' _The
Linguistic Wars_.  If you've already read it through, I'm interested
in your take on it all.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Nov 20 14:30:08 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 09:30:08 -0500
Subject: oofle dust
In-Reply-To: <199911200007.KAA24568@lingua.arts.uq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.093008.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Roly,

I grew up with foo-foo dust (same meaning) in the South Midlands US. See
DARE (Vol II) for a West African foofoo (dough) which came to the US and
one Illinois citation for foo-foo dust meaning "dust bunny" (little balls
of dust which collect under furniture). I'm surprised DARE doesn't have
foo-foo dust for "magic powder."

dInIs (whose daddy always sprinkled a little foo-foo dust around in reponse
to unresonable requests)

At 7:07 PM -0500 11/19/99, Prof. Roly Sussex wrote:
>Is the phrase "oofle dust" or perhaps "uffle dust" used in the US?
>There are 4 hits on the Web for oofle dust, and a listener to
>Aust. radio reports "uffle dust" from Canada. It seems to be a magic
>substance which you sprinkle around to make things happen. I can't
>find any references.
>Thanks
>Roly Sussex
>The University of Queensland


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Nov 20 14:36:26 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 09:36:26 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <B50F803EEA@delta.obu.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.093626.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Brittany,

First, you ain;t got nothing to worry about; of course it is not fading
(except in carpetbagger domains like Atlanta).

Second, why "antebellum"? Most of the evidence we have is that what we
think of as today's "Southern Accent" (with a few exceptions, r-lessness,
possibly /aI/ monophthongization) is a fairly recent phenomenon (and I
apologize for that old-fashioned singular; I know it has become
"phenomena"). In short (and I know this will horrify many daugheers and
sons of the South), most of the Civil War Confederates whom you love to
hear in the movies would have sounded a good deal more like what you call
"midwesterners" than any self-respecting southerner of today.

Course, it's hard to be self-respecting which a bunch of fools from the
north are always laughing at the way you talk.

dInIs



At 9:54 PM -0500 11/19/99, BRITTANY M. BARBER wrote:
>You know what accent I'd like to see promoted before it shrivels
>up and dies, and every American talks like they're from the midwest?
>The old timey antebellum south mouth.  Do you predict it fading long
>gone within the next decade or so?


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Sat Nov 20 14:54:32 1999
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (G S C)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 09:54:32 -0500
Subject: oofle dust
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.095432.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Foo foo dust usage, which may be similar to that of dInIs at:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gamble/interviews/grey.html

http://www-douzzer.ai.mit.edu:8080/conspiracy/china.html

Reference to a drug at:
http://www.pinehurst.net/~apd/drug/a-z/terms/alpha_f.html

An after-bath powder at:
http://gamgee.acad.emich.edu/~tomlewis/LYRICS/showers.html

Overpriced electrical accessories at:
http://www.avahifi.com/faq1.htm

Snake oil at:
http://www.humic.com/humatehist1.html

A vaccine (vitamin X) for mastitis at:
http://dps.ufl.edu/Pub/1298_D.HTM

Used in the title of an agricultural pub at:
http://www.ker.com/respub.html

Seems that there is foo foo dust everywhere that you look, and in a few
places where you might not look.

George S. Cole  gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Sat Nov 20 15:56:13 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 10:56:13 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.105613.0500.>

Dennis, could you recommend an article or book that would further explain
this phenomenon?  It sounds very interesting to this son of the south; I
thought that the accent went back to before the War Against Northern
Aggression, but I'm no linguist, just an interested dilettante.

Many thanks.

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:

> Brittany,
>
> First, you ain;t got nothing to worry about; of course it is not fading
> (except in carpetbagger domains like Atlanta).
>
> Second, why "antebellum"? Most of the evidence we have is that what we
> think of as today's "Southern Accent" (with a few exceptions, r-lessness,
> possibly /aI/ monophthongization) is a fairly recent phenomenon (and I
> apologize for that old-fashioned singular; I know it has become
> "phenomena"). In short (and I know this will horrify many daugheers and
> sons of the South), most of the Civil War Confederates whom you love to
> hear in the movies would have sounded a good deal more like what you call
> "midwesterners" than any self-respecting southerner of today.
>
> Course, it's hard to be self-respecting which a bunch of fools from the
> north are always laughing at the way you talk.

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                      "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From johnsoe1 at PACBELL.NET  Sat Nov 20 18:40:48 1999
From: johnsoe1 at PACBELL.NET (Elizabeth Johnson)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 10:40:48 -0800
Subject: oofle dust
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.104048.0800.>

Is that where "Little Bunny Foo-Foo" came from?

Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
> Roly,
>
> I grew up with foo-foo dust (same meaning) in the South Midlands US. See
> DARE (Vol II) for a West African foofoo (dough) which came to the US and
> one Illinois citation for foo-foo dust meaning "dust bunny" (little balls
> of dust which collect under furniture). I'm surprised DARE doesn't have
> foo-foo dust for "magic powder."


From b-jlewis at ECENTRAL.COM  Sat Nov 20 21:36:38 1999
From: b-jlewis at ECENTRAL.COM (Bret Lewis)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 13:36:38 -0800
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.133638.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Subscribe B-Jlewis at ecentral.com
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From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Sat Nov 20 21:25:11 1999
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 16:25:11 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.162511.0500.>

Dennis,

I suppose I am a lay person, since my specialty is not linguistics, but rather
renaissance and restoration drama with a minor in comp/rhetoric.  I do,
however, follow the proceedings on the list with a fair amount of excitement
and enthusiasm and am a little disappointed by your answer that seems to say
that your work is too complex for us to handle.

At the same time, I realize that theoretically-heavy material--by its very
nature--is too difficult to reduce to a one-page precis, but could you give us
some brief idea of what you base this revisionist (that's a loaded word, I
know, but I simply mean that you're proposing a rather new look at something
that's fairly entrenched) conceptualization of the antebellum southern accent?
If not, is there someone else out there that can inform the list of this
phenomenon?

I also realize that many members of the list might be facing a couple--if not
more--stacks of papers to grade before the final holiday rush, but this topic
seems to be a very good opportunity to explore linguistics and accent beyond
many of our typical (but fun, and let's not stop them) discussions of "pop" vs.
"soda."

Thanks for the time.

Bob, not Brittany

"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:

> Brittany,
>
> I'd like to, but this is fairly recent (and unfortunately very technically
> embedded stuff, in acoustic phonetics, I'm afraid), and there is no single
> source. It's our fault for not publishing more stuff that is comprehensible
> to interested lay-persons.
>
> Best,
>
> dInIs
>
> >Dennis, could you recommend an article or book that would further explain
> >this phenomenon?  It sounds very interesting to this son of the south; I
> >thought that the accent went back to before the War Against Northern
> >Aggression, but I'm no linguist, just an interested dilettante.
> >
> >Many thanks.
> >
> >Bob Haas
> >Department of English
> >High Point University
> >University of North Carolina at Greensboro
> >
> >                      "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"
>
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736

--

Bob Haas
Department of English
High Point University
University of North Carolina at Greensboro

                       "Shun the frumious Bandersnatch!"


From scplc at GS.VERIO.NET  Sat Nov 20 21:37:51 1999
From: scplc at GS.VERIO.NET (Pafra & Scott Catledge)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 15:37:51 -0600
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.153751.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is a fascinating listserv; however, I will need to shift my viewing
to the digest format.   I cannot locate the original message with the
digest address; therefore, I beg your indulgence.  Scott Catledge


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Nov 20 22:32:28 1999
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 16:32:28 -0600
Subject: "The more things change,..."
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.163228.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  Today I was  asked  who originated the expression "The more things
change, the more they remain the same."

     Would someone know the answer?  (is the French version perhaps the
original one?)

----Gerald Cohen





gcohen at umr.edu


From bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU  Sun Nov 21 01:28:58 1999
From: bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU (BRITTANY M. BARBER)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 19:28:58 CST
Subject: corpus v. grammar v. intuition
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.991119165727.15124A-100000@pisa.ling.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.192858.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here is another thing I've been wanting to ask:
A corpus is a body of observations, a collection of linguistic
specimens.  A grammar is a body of rules and representations
describing those specimens, an abstract account of patterns manifest
in the corpus.  Which in your opinion has more authority over
language?  Do either have more than intuition?  This may be
confusing.  Here is an example:  The verb 'perform' cannot be used
with mass-word objects: one can perform a task, but one cannot
perform labour.  This is known without using a corpus or having
studied the verb perform.  But it makes sense to us because we are
native speakers of the English language.  Obviously intuition
wins.  Right?  Look forward to hearing your take, Brittany


From trb at BELLSOUTH.NET  Sun Nov 21 04:02:16 1999
From: trb at BELLSOUTH.NET (Terry Barber)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 1999 23:02:16 -0500
Subject: corpus v. grammar v. intuition
Message-ID: <SAT.20.NOV.1999.230216.0500.>

good question,brittany.'when I find out I'll let you know. Love, MOm

BRITTANY M. BARBER wrote:

> Here is another thing I've been wanting to ask:
> A corpus is a body of observations, a collection of linguistic
> specimens.  A grammar is a body of rules and representations
> describing those specimens, an abstract account of patterns manifest
> in the corpus.  Which in your opinion has more authority over
> language?  Do either have more than intuition?  This may be
> confusing.  Here is an example:  The verb 'perform' cannot be used
> with mass-word objects: one can perform a task, but one cannot
> perform labour.  This is known without using a corpus or having
> studied the verb perform.  But it makes sense to us because we are
> native speakers of the English language.  Obviously intuition
> wins.  Right?  Look forward to hearing your take, Brittany


From sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU  Sun Nov 21 06:38:57 1999
From: sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. Roly Sussex)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:38:57 +1000
Subject: oofle dust
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.163857.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs reports foo-foo dust: in Aus there is rather a foo-foo valve:
when you blow your foo-foo valve you can take no more.

I suspect that oofle-dust is British. But how it came about ...
it SOUNDS as if it should be in some author like Roald Dahl,
but I'm pretty sure he isn't the source.

Roly Sussex


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 21 06:56:01 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 01:56:01 EST
Subject: Sangria; Tartini; H & C
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.015601.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SANGRIA

     Is "Sangria" Mexican?
     This is from Barnhart's Dictionary of Etymology:

_sangria_ n. Spanish drink made of red wine mixed with fruit juices.  1736
_sangre_; later _sangaree_ (1785),  _sangria_ (1954); of uncertain origin.
The word is attested in English nearly a century before it is recorded in
Spanish, and Corominas considers it improbable that the word is derived from
Spanish _sangria_ bleeding.

     OED has:

_Sangria_  Also _sangria_ [a Sp. sangria (see Sangaree).]  A cold drink of
Spanish origin composed of red wine variously diluted and sweetened.
1961 "J. WELCOME" _Beware of Midnight_ x. 119  ...a jug of Sangria for the
others..."It's a sort of Spanish Pimms."
1966 _House and Garden_ Dec. 79/3 Visitors to Spain soon become familiar with
sangria--the national iced wine cup.  The simplest form consists of slices of
fruit...soaked in a rough Spanish red wine and a little water...and ice added.

     The first hit on OCLC Worldcat is Fernando Grade's SANGRIA (1962), a
book of Portuguese poetry published in Lisbon.
     The first hit on Historical Newspapers Online is a sangria recipe in the
London Times, 24 December 1971.
     The Literature Online index had four poetry hits, from 1983, 1984, 1996,
and 1998.
     There is a Eureka HAPI (Hispanic American Periodicals Index) database,
but there wasn't a hit for "sangria."
     MLA Bibliography 1981-1999 turned up:

TITLE  Sangria "bebida": Historia del vocablo y propuesta etimologica; Actes
du XVIIe Cong. Internat. de linguistique et philologie romanes
(Aix-en-Provence, 29 aout-3 septembre 1983), V.
SOURCE  223-236 IN Bouvier-Jean-Claude (introd.). Sociolinguistique des
langues romanes.  Aix-en-Provence: Pubs. Univ. de Provence, 1984.  342 pp.

     This "sangria" and other items are from Sidney Clark's ALL THE BEST IN
MEXICO (1949):

Pg. 75  The Geneve's food is definitely good.  (Did they create the Swiss
enchilada?--ed.)
Pg. 144  ...in Taxco, where a famous tequila cocktail called the "Bertha" is
an established feature of life...Bertha (pronounced Bair-ta)...
Pg. 145  The Bertha, made with lime juice and simple syrup, looks like a Tom
Collins but tastes remarkably like a Daiquiri.
Pg. 146  There is a mild, delicious, and thoroughly Mexican beverage called
_sangria_, being a mixture of claret and lemon juice.

     Thoroughly Mexican?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TARTINI

     In the Saturday Night Live parody of HBO's "Sex and the City," Jennifer
Aniston and friends said that they were drinking
"tartinis"--cranberry-flavored vodka.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
H & C (continued)

     From ALL THE BEST IN MEXICO (1949) by sidney Clark, pg. 237:

     A plumbing note, apropos of nothing.  In provincial hotels if you turn
on the faucet marked with the letter C you almost always get hot water (if
there is any) and in turning the one marked H you get cold water.  This
hardware is imported from the States and all Mexican plumbers instantly
recognize that C stands for _Caliente_ (hot).  The H is a puzzle but it can
only serve for the other faucet.


From Dfcoye at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 21 18:32:58 1999
From: Dfcoye at AOL.COM (Dfcoye at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:32:58 EST
Subject: oofle dust
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.133258.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Never heard of this or foo-foo before growing up in Upstate NY, but is it too
much of a coincidence to suppose that oofle is related to Shakespeare's
ouphes 'elves' /u:fs/ in Merry Wives of Windsor 4.4.50, 5.5.57?   If I
remember right, elves lost /l/ somewhere along the line to give ouphes...

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From Dfcoye at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 21 18:33:00 1999
From: Dfcoye at AOL.COM (Dfcoye at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:33:00 EST
Subject: pizzeria pronunciation?
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.133300.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Spike Lee's Do the Right Thing   Sal, the owner of a pizzeria, pronounces
it as if it were  pizz ur EE uh-  Does anyone know if this is common in NYC
or among Italian-Americans elsewhere?

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From kelly at BARD.EDU  Sun Nov 21 18:35:23 1999
From: kelly at BARD.EDU (Robert Kelly)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:35:23 -0500
Subject: pizzeria pronunciation?
In-Reply-To: <0.26d9f997.256994dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.133523.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I grew up in a little Sicily in Brooklyn, and never heard it otherwise
than [pitz at r'i@] by Italo-Americans, i.e. pitz-ur-EE-uh.  Of course
Italians said it with different vowels, but the same stress.  How else is
it said?  RK


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 21 21:53:18 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:53:18 EST
Subject: 2000 Cocktail Calendar & "The Y2K"
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.165318.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    There is COCKTAILS: COOL CONCOCTIONS FOR THE COCKTAIL GENERATION! 2000 DESK CALENDAR by Jefferson Burruss.
     January 1/2 is:

Y2K
1 oz. bourbon
1/2 oz. Pernod
soda

     The other drinks (ask me if you want them described in full) are:

Baby Eskimo, Apple Cooler, Bronx Cocktail, Chicago, Daily Mail, Southland, Rum Buck, Chocolate Milkmaid, Monkey Gland, Irish Coffee, Whiskey Flip, Alabama Slammer, B-52, Ideal Cocktail, Black Cat, Favorite Cocktail, Stonewall, Fare Thee Well, Golden Dream, Bobby Burns, Kangaroo Cocktail, Night Owl, Dixie Whistle, Silver Arrow, Nevins, Rhett Butler, Narragansett, Amaretto Sour, Gin Rickey, Blood and Sand, Caffe Amaretto, White Russian, Noble Cocktail, Ink Street, Gentle Ben, Velvet Hammer, Rose Cocktail, Cuba Libre, Pink Cadillac, Farmer's Cocktail, Bloody Mary, Pendennis Club Cocktail, American Fizz, Cherry Smash, White Spider, Bentley, Knockout, Faded Jeans, Skip and Go Naked, Scotch Cooler, Bellini, Fuzzy Navel, Picador, Black RUssian, Sweet Old Pal, Godmother, Yale Cocktail (March 8, Yale College is chartered, 1701), Negroni, Mai-Tai, Dirty Sock, Grand Central, B&B, Fair and Warmer, Spring Fever, Wee Guinness, Woo-Woo, Temptation Cocktail, Napoleon, English Highball, Collee!
n, Black Magic, Sex on the Beach, Godfather, Adonis, Aqueduct, Martini Van Gogh, Parisian, Stinger, Rolls-Royce, White Lily, Knickerbocker, Broken Golf Cart, Tropical Dream, Mary Pickford, Bee's Kiss, Pina Colada, Cosmonaut, Hole-In-One, Saratoga, Martini, Income Tax, Baron Martini, Bee's Knees, Madras, Leave It To Me, Lady MacBeth, Presbyterian, Opal Cocktail, Nuclear Waste, Prince Edward, Maurice, New Yorker, Soviet, Sharky, Gin & Tonic, Manhattan, Margarita, Klondike Cooler, Mandeville, Orange Oasis, Ninotchka, Ritz, Melonball, Angel Face, Moscow Mule, Judge Jr., Mint Julep, Fairy Belle, Jack-in-the-Box, Angel's Wing, Bermuda Rose, Recliner, Rum Runner, Bahama Mama, Pefect Cocktail, Bond Martini (served shaken not stirred), Damn the Weather, Mississippi Mud, Weekend, Bluegrass Champagne, Queen Elizabeth, Kamikaze, Old-Fashioned, Normandy Cocktail, Platinum Blonde, Barn Door, Princeton Cocktail, Spencer,  Cowboy Cooler, Oyster Shot, Betsy Ross, Webster Cocktail, Stone Fence,!
 Bazooka Joe, Pike's Peak, Gibson, Daiquiri, THree Miller Cocktail, Feel Like a Holiday, Flying Saucer, Jack Rose, Double Standard, Piccadilly Cocktail, Paisley Martini, Belmont, English Rose Cocktail, Tom Collins, Stars and Stripes, Corkscrew, Hawaiian Volcano, 7&7, Ernest Hemingway, Beachcomer, Scorpion, Bay Breeze, Lynchburg Lemonade, French Connection, Afterglow, Applejack Rabbit, Between the Sheets, Pimm's Cup, Beanie's Bum, Barton Special, Rangoon Ruby, Greenback, San Juan, Nevada, Planter's Punch, Miami Beach, Barbary Coast, Matador, Alfonso Special, Fifth Avenue, Hudson Bay, Double Dare, Beauty Spot, Cosmopolitan, Bahama Storm, Hasty Cocktail, Whiskey Sour, Lemon Drop, Hoopla, Quaker's Cocktail, Bombay Cocktail, Bikini, Sea Breeze, Emerald, Harvey Wallbanger, Gin Aloha, Michael Collins, Greyhound, Tequila Sunrise, Colorado Bulldog, Jade, Cossack, Deauville, Dixie Cocktail, Caruso, Deep Sea, Apple Pie, American Beauty, El Diablo, Hurricane, Caipirinha, Beam Me Up Scotti!
e, Blue Seude, Sidecar, Olympic Cocktail, Screwdriver, Bloody Brain, Orient Express, Alabama Fizz, Jamboree, Opening Cocktail, Brandy Alexander, Chapel Hill (Sept. 21), Fireball, Fallen Angel, Eye-Opener, Modern Cocktail, Delmonico, Gilroy, Mudslide, Cabaret, Charles Cocktail, Saxon, Russian Cocktail, Rusty Nail, Caribbean Breeze, Bali, Snowball, Bamboo, Salty Dog, Nuts and Berries, Banana Cow, Algonquin, Havana Cocktail, Brass Monkey, Orange Buck, Grasshopper, Pall Mall, Blue Whale, Claridge Cocktail, Devil's Tail, Picasso, Brandy Fancy, Nob Hill, Harvard Cocktail, Gin Fizz, Zombie (Oct. 31), Tropical Depression, Maxim, Gasoline, Chelsea Sidecar, Singapore Sling, Devil's Smile, Jamaican Coffee, Berlin Martini, Morro, Cape Codder, Mojito, Prince of Wales, Royal Smile Cocktail, Plantation Punch, El Presidente, Applecar, Yellow Bird, Wembley Cocktail, Hat Trick, Thanksgiving Special, Diamond Head, Red Lion, Foxy Lady, Gin & Sin, Fuzzy Dice, Dorian Gray, Toasted Almond, Frostbite!
, Hot Toddy, Hennessy Martini, Bermuda High, Pearl Harbor, Victor, Paradise Cocktail, Dubonnet Fizz, Comfortable Screw, Montmartre, Cocomacoque, Scarlett O'Hara, East India Cocktail, Hollywood, XYZ Cocktail, Fontainebleau, Snow White, Gimlet, Eggnog For One, Poinsettia, Maiden's Blush, Hot Buttered Comfort, Rob Roy, Snowflake, Martini 2000.

   Check to see how many/few of these are in the OED.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 21 23:57:11 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 18:57:11 EST
Subject: Tartini & Pitza (continued)
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.185711.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TARTINI (continued)

   A Dow Jones check shows that this drink was probably invented at the hip, new Soho Grand Hotel in New York City.
   From the News and Observer (Raleigh, NC), 2-25-98, pg. F4:

   The Soho Grand Hotel in New York serves a cheeky, cherry-red Tartini.  A blend of Stoli Razberi, Chambord raspberry liqueur and cranberry juice, it uncannily replicates the flavor of a melted Luden's cough drop.

--------------------------------------------------------
PITZA (continued)

   A Dow Jones check shows that Newsday, 3-23-1990, cites a Brooklyn restaurant called Moustache Mideastern Pitza, 405 Atlantic Avenue, Boerum Hill, (718) 852-5555.
   The Atlanta Journal and Constitution (1997) and the Des Moines Register (1998) also show restaurants that serve "pitza," but "pitza" appears to come straight outta Brooklyn.

--------------------------------------------------------
ALPHABET STOCKS (continued)

   The Dow Jones database turned up the Wall Street Journal, 11-20-1985, in a story about GM Class H and Class E stocks.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Nov 22 00:29:35 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 19:29:35 -0500
Subject: pizzeria pronunciation?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A32.3.95.991121133319.20670C-100000@bard.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.192935.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

With normal syllable divisions (known hereabouts as making the most of your
onsets):

pee-tsuh-REE-uh.

dInIs (who can always spot Wisconsinites, who make the most of onsets to
the point of cluster formation - wI-SKON-suhn, compared to my "normal"
wIs-KON-suhn)



>I grew up in a little Sicily in Brooklyn, and never heard it otherwise
>than [pitz at r'i@] by Italo-Americans, i.e. pitz-ur-EE-uh.  Of course
>Italians said it with different vowels, but the same stress.  How else is
>it said?  RK


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 22 02:10:15 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 21:10:15 EST
Subject: corpus v. grammar v. intuition
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.211015.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I you tell me what you mean by "more authority over language" I might begin
to know how to answer the question. But also, I want to know who wrote the
grammar and why; and who collected the corpus, and under what conditions?

Your question really has no meaning without considering these vital
qualifications and discriminations.


In a message dated 11/20/1999 10:54:05 PM, bar32571 at DELTA.OBU.EDU writes:

<< Here is another thing I've been wanting to ask:
A corpus is a body of observations, a collection of linguistic
specimens.  A grammar is a body of rules and representations
describing those specimens, an abstract account of patterns manifest
in the corpus.  Which in your opinion has more authority over
language?  Do either have more than intuition?  This may be
confusing.  Here is an example:  The verb 'perform' cannot be used
with mass-word objects: one can perform a task, but one cannot
perform labour.  This is known without using a corpus or having
studied the verb perform.  But it makes sense to us because we are
native speakers of the English language.  Obviously intuition
wins.  Right?  Look forward to hearing your take, Brittany >>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 22 02:12:11 1999
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 21:12:11 EST
Subject: "The more things change,..."
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.211211.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/20/1999 6:23:46 PM, gcohen at UMR.EDU writes:

<<   Today I was  asked  who originated the expression "The more things
change, the more they remain the same."

     Would someone know the answer?  (is the French version perhaps the
original one?) >>

plus c,a change, plus c'est la me^me chose? yeah, I feel as though I learned
the French version first--but I don't know where--Molie`re?


From sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU  Mon Nov 22 03:37:19 1999
From: sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. Roly Sussex)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:37:19 +1000
Subject: plus ca change
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.133719.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

is from Alphonse Karr, Les Gue^pes, 1849:
Plus ca change, plus c'est la me^me chose
Roly Sussex


From elliottn at INDIANA.EDU  Mon Nov 22 03:57:43 1999
From: elliottn at INDIANA.EDU (Nancy Carol Elliott)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 22:57:43 -0500
Subject: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991119135019.00b2cb20@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.225743.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In response to Beverly Flanigan's and Larry Rosenwald's inquiries--

I primarily looked at the rhoticity of North AMerican actors representing
Americans, but a few UK actors were examined for comparison. The locale of
the film plot and prtrayed regional origin of the character didn't end up
being significant, but social class of the role did. The main factors in
variation were time and gender. Women were more r-less than men until the
60's, and in the 70's their average drops below that of the male actors
who are from r-less backgrounds (who preserve their native r-lessness
while everyone else becomes rhotic on film). "Bad girls" stay non-rhotic.
The actor's native region made some difference, but the pattern of change
was still the same - steady decrease (except that women's r-lessness
dropped sharply between the 30's and 40's to match the men's rate and then
didn't decrease at all between the 40's and 50's... 40's wartime equality
followed by a 50's return to elegance?) The same actors (I mean both
genders) in different films decreased their rate as the decades
progressed. They were pretty consistent in films of the same time period,
except when there was a big difference in the status of their role.

Within a film, I found lots of acfommodation by men to the rhoticity of
costars and lots of style shifting in the 60's and 70's (to mark
relationships and emotions) by male actors whose native dialects are
variably rhotic. (The pattern was very similar to the Elizabethan theatre
use of you and thou, but you'll have to read my dissertation to find out
how...)

During the 30's to 50's, men in the films very often became a lot more
r-less in the presence of ladies and a lot less r-less to the fellas. Also
in that time, there's a predominant pattern where the male lead is less
r-less than his female costar, no matter what her % is. (Astaire & Rogers
are a notable exception: his rate is always far above hers, but they
carefully choreograph their r-less rates to her status in their different
films, and he always stays the same percent above her rate.)

As for the Southwestern semi-r-lessness Beverly mentioned, John Wayne's
average rate of 4% r-lessness (that's only five r-less tokens out of 120
possible) in his 30's and 40's films is very, very low. Compared to other
30's and 40's male actors, he's unusual - way at the bottom of the range
(and Astaire is way off the scale in the other direction). Early Westerns
seem to be populated by rhotic characters. Even the women are way under
their gender-decade average. Westerns don't get stereotyped 'Slim Pickens'
speech until later on.

I think I just wrote my abstract. I defend in January (Indiana
University).

Nancy Elliott
Oregon Shakespeare Festival
elliottn at indiana.edu

On Fri, 19 Nov 1999, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> I gather you looked not only at "outsiders" playing Americans (and vice
> versa?) but also at Americans representing Americans.  Apparently you
> correlated degree of r-lessness with both the region/locale of the film
> plot and the  regional origin of the character in question?  Did you also
> consider social class, education, and age?  (You considered gender, as you
> note.)  The steady decline from 1930 to 1970 would go along with Labov's
> findings on post-WWII New York (for some classes); but what about Boston or
> Deep South settings?  Ray Milland could play a prototypical middle-class
> New Yorker of our parents' or grandparents' generation; Kevin Spacey of
> "Midnight in..." represents a younger but upper class Southerner
> (post-'70s, of course).  And John Wayne's 4% r-lessness would be reasonable
> in light of Hartman's (19??) suggestion of semi-r-lessness in the Southwest
> (Wayne's cowboy country).  Only 3 American "authentics" (my term) seems low
> to me.  But I'm assuming you looked at all these sociolinguistic
> factors!  Where did you do the dissertation?
>
> At 09:41 AM 11/19/99 -0500, you wrote:
> >I'm just finishing my dissertation on the subject of rhoticity in American
> >film speech from the 30's to the 70's. I collected data on about 50
> >subjects per decade (4-year period in a decade's midpoint) and got a
> >decade average from each subject's percentage of r-lessness. The decade
> >average decreases steadily from the 30's to the 70's (59 -> 43 -> 33 -> 22
> >-> 7), with interesting differences between female and male subjects.
> >
> >(Correction: Ray Milland's r-less rate is 92, not 98. And John Wayne's,
> >incidentally, is 4.)
> >
> >Nancy Elliott
> >
> >On Thu, 18 Nov 1999, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> >
> > > Very interesting!  Where did you get your percentages on r-lessness, and
> > > have you published anything on your 40-year analysis?
> > >
> > > At 04:51 PM 11/18/99 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Anthony Hopkins only gets half a star for his accent as Nixon.
> > > >
> > > >Of the American films I've studied (1930's to 70's) that have overtly
> > > >specified regional origins for a character, I found only three (US) actors
> > > >that made any kind of attempt to sound like that was where they were from.
> > > >
> > > >Of the Brits in American roles, Angela Lansbury is extremely successful --
> > > >of course she came to NY to study acting at the age of 15. Stephen Boyd
> > > >(Fantastic Voyage) gets 4 stars; I only heard a couple of Belfast vowels
> > > >from him. Ray Milland (The Lost Weekend ) didn't sound Welsh in the
> > > >1940's; the only remarkable thing I found about his speech was that he was
> > > >98% r-less, compared to an average of 42% for male American actors of that
> > > >decade.
> > > >
> > > >And then there's Cary Grant...
> > > >
> > > >Nancy Elliott
> > >
>


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Mon Nov 22 04:15:50 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 21:15:50 -0700
Subject: place pronunciations (was RE: pizzeria pronunciation?)
In-Reply-To: <l03130301b45e3e399ec8@[35.9.50.235]>
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.211550.0700.>

Re:

>>dInIs (who can always spot Wisconsinites, who make the most of onsets to
the point of cluster formation - wI-SKON-suhn, compared to my "normal"
wIs-KON-suhn)<<

Speaking of which ... Is the "correct" pronunciation of a place or name that
of the natives, generally, or does some "objective" third party make these
decisions? For example, the wI-SKON-suhn pronunciation written above is
definitely that of a Wisconsinite, whereas Wisconsinites are mortified at
"foreigners'" pronunciation of wIs-KON-suhn. New Orleans is famous for
possessing a variety of pronunciations around the country. Towns ending
with -ville may be another example (I would say NASH-vill, while a native
would say NASH-vull, perhaps?). Anyone who's been to Milwaukee probably
noticed the natives saying m-WAH-kee, rather than mil-WAH-kee. The last two
cases may be simply a matter of laziness of the tongue; however, I am
interested to know exactly who DOES decide on these matters of
pronunciation.

Amy


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Mon Nov 22 04:17:42 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 23:17:42 -0500
Subject: place pronunciations (was RE: pizzeria pronunciation?)
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.231742.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Sunday, November 21, 1999, Amy Speed <speed at paradigmtech.com> wrote:
I am
>interested to know exactly who DOES decide on these matters of
>pronunciation.

Albert P. Fella, 82, of Okeechobee, Florida. He's hard of hearing, hates using the
telephone and doesn't work on Sundays, but he's the best we have.

--
Grant Barrett
gbarrett at americandialect.org


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Mon Nov 22 04:43:38 1999
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 23:43:38 -0500
Subject: Peep show; Pokemon; Pitza; Trillion; Alphabet stock
Message-ID: <SUN.21.NOV.1999.234338.0500.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Friday, November 19, 1999 6:22 PM
Subject: Peep show; Pokemon; Pitza; Trillion; Alphabet stock


>PEEP SHOW
>
>"This ain't no peep show."
>--ad in today's New York City newspapers for the new LOEWS 42nd St. E
Walk's
>13 screens.


"They dont smoke,
    They don't drink.
They'll turn this town into a mall, and I don't know what to think."

They Don't Smoke (Nueva Broadway) - Buster Poindexter

>PITZA (A "HYBREAD")
>
>     From the New York Daily News, "The Top 40" restaurants, 19 November
>1999, pg. 78, col. 1:
>
>Under $10
>(...) 2. Zaytoons
>Pitza is a "hybread" of pita and pizza.  The definitive combo is the
>lahambajin, comprising ground lamb, onion, tomato and spices.  There's also
a
>Middle Eastern version (lamb, merguez, parsley).  Or you can stick with the
>Italian (tomato sauce, mozzarella, garlic).  283 Smith St., at Sackett St.,
>Brooklyn, (718) 875-1880.



Calling it "pide" would've been too pedestrian, I suppose. Pide is pretty
much the national food of Turkey. As much as hamburgers are the national
food of the US. Cooked on a flatbread that can be so flat as to be rollable,
or with some leavening, and available with as many toppings as can be found
on pizzas, such as eggs, lamb, pastirma, cheese, vegetables, et al.

For those in the northern New Jersey area, I can provide my personal
favorite supplier of pide...

Bruce


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 22 05:53:32 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 00:53:32 EST
Subject: Cactus curtain; Friendly fire; Chip; MPB
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.005332.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CACTUS CURTAIN

     "Cactus curtain" has been used, but I haven't seen it recorded.  OCLC
WorldCat has:

THE CACTUS CURTAIN (1975), a film by Ernesto Galarza on the Mexican-American
struggle.
ACROSS THE CACTUS CURTAIN: THE STORY OF GUANTANAMO BAY (1984) by Theodore
Mason.

     "Cactus curtain" was used (with quotes) by the novelist Carlos Fuentes
in an article about Mexico in VOGUE, January 1, 1966, pg. 109.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
FRIENDLY FIRE

     I've been very briefly going through the Reader's Digest for "the whole
nine yards."  The phrase possibly comes from the military.  (I looked through
Sports Illustrated football articles and didn't find it.)  RD had a column
called "Humor in Uniform."
    OED Additions Series 2, pg. 102, has "friendly" from 1925 and "friendly
forces" from 1966 and "friendly fire" from 1976.  This is from the Reader's
Digest, "Humor in Uniform," Feb. 1966, pg. 105, col. 2:

     ARMY helicopters in Vietnam were sent to Tay Ninh Province to withdraw
friendly troops.  The landing zone was supposed to be secure, and no Vietcong
ground fire was expected.  Suddenly an excited voice shouted over the radio:
"Lead, this is Nine Five.  Drawing enemy fire from the right."
     "Negative, negative," came the flight leader's reply.  "Those are
friendly troops down there."
     "Affirmative," acknowledged the pilot who reported the fire.  "Drawing
friendly fire from the right."
     --WO EDWARD SMITH, quoted by UPI

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
(COMPUTER) CHIP

     Reader's Digest, January 1966, pg. 173, col. 1, has this article from
the September 19,  1965 New York Times Magazine:

_The "Chip"--_
_Newest Marvel in_
_Electronics_
   (...)  Behind all of this is the "chip," or integrated circuit, a
fantastic development which has been under way for several years.  At the
heart of the circuit is the transistor, already responsible for its own
electronic revolution.

    The OED has a citation in 1962 and another in 1966.  (Not an
antedate--I'm so ashamed.)  It's a good article, though.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
BEING JOHN MALKOVICH & "MALE PATTERN BALDNESS"

     I saw the film BEING JOHN MALKOVICH at the new 42nd Street E Walk ("This
ain't no peep show").  The first half is deliciously loopy, but then the
second half is contrived and you ask yourself too many logical plot questions.
     It was nice (in the first half) to see John Malkovich make fun of
himself.  Everyone knew that he was a great actor, but no one could remember
a role he played (how about the late Paul Bowles's THE SHELTERING SKY?).
     "Male pattern baldness" was mentioned.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 22 09:03:21 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 04:03:21 EST
Subject: Quentin Crisp
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.040321.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Quentin Crisp, 90, author of the 1968 book THE NAKED CIVIL SERVANT, has
died.
    This is from the obituary in today's New York Post, pg. 12, col. 5:

    Crisp coined several famous one-liners, including: "If at first you don't
succeed, failure may be your style" (The W. C. Fields second half of this was
better, IMHO--ed.), and "Never keep up with the Joneses; drag them down to
your level.  It's cheaper."

     The New York Times obituary contains the line I remember:

      "...the man asked me, 'Are you a practicing homosexual?'  And I said I
didn't practice.  I was already perfect."

      I sort of did some more work on "gay."  I live on East 57th Street, and
the American Psychological Association is on East 58th.  I found out that
they don't have a library there, but they have one in Washington.  I went to
the APA in Washington (opposite Union Station), but the library had no useful
archives from the 1930s and 1940s.  I was given the number of the Archives in
the History of Psychology at the University of Akron.  Now, I've been
directed somewhere else...
-------------- next part --------------
An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Dr. John A. Popplestone" <jap4 at uakron.edu>
Subject: Re: Pschology archives for word "gay"
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:00:24 -0500
Size: 3945
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/19991122/d8083ad3/attachment.eml>

From AAllan at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 22 13:58:09 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 08:58:09 EST
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.085809.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

According to Jim "the Mad Monk" Crotty's 1997 book, _How to Talk American_,
"the most important and tricky piece of Seattle vernacular" is: "yeah."
He adds: "It's almost _Fargo_-esque but different (not as dorky, almost
surfer-like) and best understood by example. 'So you got mugged in New York?'
'Yeah I did.' 'She is a total fox.' 'Yeah she is.'"

I have two questions: 1. Is this really a distinguishing feature of Seattle
(youth?) vernacular? and
2. what exactly is it? A matter of intonation, of pronunciation, of placement
in discourse, of frequency of use?

A writer for the Seattle Times, Jean Godden, included this item in a column
on Crotty's book without further comment, thereby implicitly agreeing with
it, I suppose, but not helping the explanation.

Thanks - Allan Metcalf


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 22 14:46:42 1999
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 09:46:42 -0500
Subject: oofle dust
In-Reply-To: <l03130300b45c5fcc5784@[35.9.48.28]>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.094642.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 20 Nov 1999, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> Roly,
>
> I grew up with foo-foo dust (same meaning) in the South Midlands US. See
> DARE (Vol II) for a West African foofoo (dough) which came to the US and
> one Illinois citation for foo-foo dust meaning "dust bunny" (little balls
> of dust which collect under furniture). I'm surprised DARE doesn't have
> foo-foo dust for "magic powder."
>
> dInIs (whose daddy always sprinkled a little foo-foo dust around in reponse
> to unresonable requests)

A family friend of my first wife's parents who worked as a capt for Texaco
driving those huge tankers was in fabrics in the old country used "foo foo
stuff" for perfume; later I learned that it was a euphemism for excrement
in some circles. . .
=======================================================================
David Bergdahl          Ellis Hall 366         Ohio University / Athens
Associate Prof/English  tel:  (740) 593-2783   fax:  (740) 593-2818
                        bergdahl at oak.cats.ohiou.edu
                    http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
=======================================================================


From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM  Mon Nov 22 15:24:13 1999
From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Enid Pearsons)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:24:13 -0500
Subject: Quentin Crisp
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.102413.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Didn't he also say something about being (approx.) "the last of the stately
homos of England"?

))))))))) Previous Notes Mail
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
To:     ADS-L @ LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
cc:     (bcc: Enid Pearsons/Trade/RandomHouse)
From:  Bapopik @ AOL.COM
Date:  11/22/99 04:03 AM
Subject:  Quentin Crisp




    Quentin Crisp, 90, author of the 1968 book THE NAKED CIVIL SERVANT, has
died.
    This is from the obituary in today's New York Post, pg. 12, col. 5:

    Crisp coined several famous one-liners


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov 22 15:52:13 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 11:52:13 -0400
Subject: Pitza (continued)
In-Reply-To: <0.8769fe10.2569e0d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.115213.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:57 PM -0500 11/21/99, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>--------------------------------------------------------
>PITZA (continued)
>
>   A Dow Jones check shows that Newsday, 3-23-1990, cites a Brooklyn
>restaurant called Moustache Mideastern Pitza, 405 Atlantic Avenue, Boerum
>Hill, (718) 852-5555.
>   The Atlanta Journal and Constitution (1997) and the Des Moines Register
>(1998) also show restaurants that serve "pitza," but "pitza" appears to
>come straight outta Brooklyn.
>
What's interesting is that this is a vacuous blend in the spoken language,
given the homophony of "pitza" and "pizza".  At least "hybread" is a real,
God-fearing blend phonologically as well as orthographically.  Any other
examples of a pre-neutralized blend?  (I suppose someone could invent a
"sand-witch", made with real sand, but the market would appear limited.)

Larry


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 22 18:06:07 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:06:07 -0500
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
In-Reply-To: <0.4916a73a.256aa5f1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.130607.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I suspect it's a matter of pronunciation, since it sounds as if Crotty is
mocking the same kind of "yeah" we use in Minnesota:  [ja] or 'yah', with
some lengthening, but no ingliding or schwa (roughly [jE at h], or "ye-ugh",
which is what my Ohio-raised son says.  And it's not just a youth thing;
we've always done it.  Our West Coast people can comment on whether or not
they say it similarly.  But Fargo/Minnesota people sound "dorky"???

At 08:58 AM 11/22/99 -0500, you wrote:
>According to Jim "the Mad Monk" Crotty's 1997 book, _How to Talk American_,
>"the most important and tricky piece of Seattle vernacular" is: "yeah."
>He adds: "It's almost _Fargo_-esque but different (not as dorky, almost
>surfer-like) and best understood by example. 'So you got mugged in New York?'
>'Yeah I did.' 'She is a total fox.' 'Yeah she is.'"
>
>I have two questions: 1. Is this really a distinguishing feature of Seattle
>(youth?) vernacular? and
>2. what exactly is it? A matter of intonation, of pronunciation, of placement
>in discourse, of frequency of use?
>
>A writer for the Seattle Times, Jean Godden, included this item in a column
>on Crotty's book without further comment, thereby implicitly agreeing with
>it, I suppose, but not helping the explanation.
>
>Thanks - Allan Metcalf


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 22 18:21:14 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:21:14 EST
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.132114.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     See the Seattle Lexicon at www.calihan.com/seattle/lexicon.htm.  E-mail:
seattle at calihan.com.
--Barry Popik


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 22 18:24:25 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:24:25 EST
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.132425.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oops.  Make that Callihan (not Calihan).  This screen is too small.


From ladcox at SPH.SC.EDU  Mon Nov 22 19:48:51 1999
From: ladcox at SPH.SC.EDU (Lorraine A Adcox)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:48:51 -0600
Subject: PLEASE TAKE ME OFF THIS LIST
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95.991119165727.15124A-100000@pisa.ling.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.134851.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

my email is either ladcox at sc.edu (alias) OR
ladcox at sophe.sph.sc.edu
Thank you for taking me off this list

Lorraine A. Adcox, MS, CCC-SLP
Speech-Language Pathologist
Clinical Instructor
ladcox at sc.edu
ladcox at the-greenspan.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Aaron Drews
> Sent: Friday, November 19, 1999 11:14 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: An ADS evaluation of dialects in movies?
>
>
> On Fri, 19 Nov 1999, James Smith wrote:
>
> }--- Aaron Drews <aaron at LING.ED.AC.UK> wrote:
> }
> }> And Kevin Costner.... nil
> }>
> }> --Aaron
> }
> }Aaron,
> }
> }Just what kind of an accent would the "real" Robin
> }Hood have had?  Certainly not that of Errol Flynn or
> }Cary "I have an English accent" Elwes!  I suspect
> }Kevin sounded as close to authentic as any other
> }actor!
> }
> }JIM
>
> I would expect the real Earl of Sherwood would have had some sort of
> Mercian dialect of early Middle English.  So, yes, Costner would have
> sounded as authentic as anybody else nowadays.  I have to admit, I'd love
> to see a production of Robin Hood in any dialect of Middle English.  And,
> of course, the _real_ story of Robin Hood, too.
>
> But, don't blame me for Hollywood's thinking that anything that takes
> place in England (Robin Hood, King Arthur, Shakespeare) must be spoken in
> a mainstream (ie, RP, Estuary, Cockney, etc) accent rather than early
> Middle English, ancient Welsh or early Modern English.  It's by that
> definition I was judging Costner (et al).
>
> --Aaron
>
>
>
> ========================================================================
> Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
> aaron at ling.ed.ac.uk                  Departments of English Language and
> http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron       Theoretical & Applied  Linguistics
>
> "MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
>         --Death
>


From ladcox at SOPHE.SPH.SC.EDU  Mon Nov 22 19:47:33 1999
From: ladcox at SOPHE.SPH.SC.EDU (Lorraine A Adcox)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:47:33 -0600
Subject: take me off the list please
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.134733.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would really like to get off this list.  I've tried to go through
Topica, but apparently they have been unsuccessful.
Please take me off your list.
ladcox at sc.edu
OR
ladcox at sophe.sph.sc.edu
Thanks


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Mon Nov 22 19:31:58 1999
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:31:58 -0500
Subject: "gay: (was Quentin Crisp)
In-Reply-To: <382A0A39.CD8DCDB6@bcomp.metro-u.ac.jp>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.143158.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry says he will atttempt again to antedate the specialization of
the word "gay" to the meaning of "homosexual".  It is of course well
known that in the 19th century the slang sense of the word indicated
prostitution (on the part of women) and in general the sort of
raffish lifestyle enjoyed by prostitutes and the men who associate
with them.  (I don't have "gay" in this sense in my lexicographical
notes, though I have seen it in, for instance, the National Police
Gazette of the 1880s; in my New York City history notes I have a
young prostitute in the early 1820s pleading with a judge not
to send her to prison as a disorderly person, by acknowledging that
she led a "free life" but asserting that she had "more real modesty
than commonly supposed" and that she was raising her younger sisters
in the paths of virtue.  Regretably, the judge wasn't moved, and the
newspaper editor who quoted her words was toasted by his rivals for
being soft on sinfulness.)  It is also well known that the earliest
record of the word with the specialization to homosexuality is a
lexicon compiled by the late Gershom Legman in 1941.

George Chauncey, in his "Gay New York: Gender, Urban Culture, and the
Making of the Gay Male World, 1890-1940" [BasicBooks, 1994] discusses
the word "gay" over pp. 14-21.  The historical information he offers
supports the notion that the sense was rather a novelty when Legman
recorded it.
        Queer, fairy, trade, gay and other terms each had a
specific connotation and signified specific subjectivities, and the
ascendancy of gay as the pre-eminent term (for gay men among gay men)
in the 1940s reflected [something].  (14)
        Fag was widely used in the 1930s, but almost exclusively by
"normals" (the usual word then for those who were not queers); gay
men used the word faggot instead, but it was more commonly used by
blacks than whites.  (15, illustrated with examples)
        While gay white men also used the term faggot (although less often
than blacks), they rarely reffered to themselves as being "in the
life," a phrase commonly used by black men and women.  (15)
        While the terms queer, fairy, and faggot were often used
interchangeably by outside observers (and sometimes even by the men
the observed), each term also had a more precise meaning among gay
men. . . .  (15)
        [Discussion of the words "queer" and "trade", (15-16)]
        Ultimately men who detested the word fairy and the social category
it signified were the ones to embrace gay as an alternative label for
themselves.  (16)
        [A man] recalled in 1951 that the word gay "originated with the
flaming faggots as a 'camp' word, used to apply to absolutely
everything in any way pleasant or desireable (not as 'homosexual'), .
. . [and only began] to mean 'homosexual' lter on."  [Chauncey's
ellipsis and paraphrase.]  (17)
        [Chauncey quotes a man who recreates a conversation he had had in
1937 in which he uses the word "gay", but I suppose that we shouldn't
be over-confident that the man interviewed wasn't transporting the
later word into the earlier time. (17-18)  On the other hand,
Chauncey also quotes passages from several "camp" novels of the mid
1930s that suggest that this sense was already known.]  ". . . you
look positively gay in the new clothes.  Oh, said Harold, you're
lovely too, dear. . . ."  A chorus boy gushed to his friend in
another, . . . "I'm lush.  I'm gay.  I'm wicked.  I'm everything that
flames."  (17-18, quoting from "The Young and Evil" of 1933 and
"Butterfly Man" of 1934)
        And Cary Grant's famous line in the 1938 film Bringing Up Baby
played on several of these meanings: he leapt into the air, flounced
his arms, and shrieked "I just went gay all of a sudden," . . .
because he was asked why he had put on a woman's nightgown.  (18)
        As one gay writer explained in 1941, ***  One might ask [of a
strange man]: "Are there any gay spots in Boston?"  And by slight
accent put on the word "gay" the stranger, if wise, would understand
that homosexual resorts were meant.  ***  (18, citing a typescript in
the Kinsey Institute)
        And in the early 1930s a speakeasy on East Twenty-eighth Street
seeking gay patronage noted suggestively that it was located "in the
Gay 20's."  (19; a note on p. 379 says "the speakeasy's invitation is
preserved in an unidentified lesbian's scrapbook [in the Kinsey
Institute]).

So, it does not seem likely that the history of this sense of the
word can be pushed much further back than the presently accepted
date, and then only with luck.

Charles Kaiser's book "The Gay Metropolis, 1940-1996" [Houghton
Mifflin, 1997] has nothing to contribute.

GAT


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov 22 20:39:52 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:39:52 -0500
Subject: "gay: (was Quentin Crisp)
In-Reply-To: <19380ED4D39@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.153952.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Gershon Legman's introduction to Farmer and Henley he says that he had
an extensive collection of citations for sexual vocabulary (he also refers
to a similar collection gathered by Harry Johnson of New Jersey -- anyone
have any idea who he was?).  I have spoken recently with Legman's widow,
and she has promised me to keep an eye out for citation files in going
through his papers.  Perhaps Legman had pre-1941 evidence for _gay_
'homosexual.'


Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 22 21:38:45 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:38:45 -0500
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.163845.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(Oops--I shouldn't have had that 'h' in my rough transcription of
(southern) Ohio 'yeah'.  My basic point though is that it's not lexical
only; the word is clearly not regionally restricted, as the Callihan
website would seem to imply.)

I suspect it's a matter of pronunciation, since it sounds as if Crotty is
mocking the same kind of "yeah" we use in Minnesota:  [ja] or 'yah', with
some lengthening, but no ingliding or schwa (roughly [jE at h], or "ye-ugh",
which is what my Ohio-raised son says).  And it's not just a youth thing;
we've always done it.  Our West Coast people can comment on whether or not
they say it similarly.  But Fargo/Minnesota people sound "dorky"???

At 08:58 AM 11/22/99 -0500, you wrote:
>According to Jim "the Mad Monk" Crotty's 1997 book, _How to Talk American_,
>"the most important and tricky piece of Seattle vernacular" is: "yeah."
>He adds: "It's almost _Fargo_-esque but different (not as dorky, almost
>surfer-like) and best understood by example. 'So you got mugged in New York?'
>'Yeah I did.' 'She is a total fox.' 'Yeah she is.'"
>
>I have two questions: 1. Is this really a distinguishing feature of Seattle
>(youth?) vernacular? and
>2. what exactly is it? A matter of intonation, of pronunciation, of placement
>in discourse, of frequency of use?
>
>A writer for the Seattle Times, Jean Godden, included this item in a column
>on Crotty's book without further comment, thereby implicitly agreeing with
>it, I suppose, but not helping the explanation.
>
>Thanks - Allan Metcalf


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 22 21:41:35 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:41:35 -0500
Subject: place pronunciations (was RE: pizzeria pronunciation?)
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.164135.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Seriously though--I always tell my students to respect the local
pronunciation of place and family names--why not?  The notorious
mispronunciation around here is of a town named "Chauncey":  locals
pronounce it to rhyme with 'Nancy', while outsiders (students, mostly)
insist it "should be" rhymed with 'flaunt'.  When I ask them how they
pronounce "aunt," they start to get the point; showing a map of the
variable pronunciation of that word in England also helps.  However, where
to divide consonants in a word like "Wisconsin" is trickier; as a
Minnesotan, I share our neighbors' pronunciation, but this may be too hard
to "get one's tongue around" (as a guy in "American Tongues" says).

At 11:17 PM 11/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sunday, November 21, 1999, Amy Speed <speed at paradigmtech.com> wrote:
>I am
> >interested to know exactly who DOES decide on these matters of
> >pronunciation.
>
>Albert P. Fella, 82, of Okeechobee, Florida. He's hard of hearing, hates
>using the
>telephone and doesn't work on Sundays, but he's the best we have.
>
>--
>Grant Barrett
>gbarrett at americandialect.org


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 22 21:25:47 1999
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:25:47 -0500
Subject: "gay: (and Geo. Chauncey)
In-Reply-To: <19380ED4D39@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.162547.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quite unrelated:  Do you have any idea how George Chauncey pronounces his
last name??  I'm trying to recall the Peter Sellers movie (was it "Being
There"?), where Sellers' Chance the Gardener becomes Chauncey Gardiner,
with an "upgrade" in the pronunciation of the first name.  Obviously, I'm
curious!

At 02:31 PM 11/22/99 -0500, you wrote:

>George Chauncey, in his "Gay New York: Gender, Urban Culture, and the
>Making of the Gay Male World, 1890-1940" [BasicBooks, 1994] discusses
>the word "gay" over pp. 14-21.  The historical information he offers
>supports the notion that the sense was rather a novelty when Legman
>recorded it.
>
>GAT


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Mon Nov 22 21:01:16 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 16:01:16 -0500
Subject: "gay: (and Geo. Chauncey)
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.160116.0500.>

Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> Quite unrelated:  Do you have any idea how George Chauncey pronounces his
> last name??  I'm trying to recall the Peter Sellers movie (was it "Being
> There"?), where Sellers' Chance the Gardener becomes Chauncey Gardiner,
> with an "upgrade" in the pronunciation of the first name.  Obviously, I'm
> curious!

Yes, it was _Being There_.

Lynne, who's been there and seen that


M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 23 01:05:21 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:05:21 EST
Subject: Cactus/Tortilla Curtain; Caipirinha
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.200521.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CACTUS CURTAIN/TORTILLA CURTAIN

     "The Cactus Curtain" by Jose Luis Cuevas appeared in EVERGREEN REVIEW, Winter 1959, pg. 111.  I haven't seen it--a poet named Ginsburg wrote for this Review, so NYU has the whole darn thing in Special Collections.
     On Tortilla Curtain:

1966--Patricia Ann Groves, PENETRATING THE "TORTILLA CURTAIN": A LINGUISTICS-BASED READING-READINESS GUIDE TO TEACHERS OF MEXICAN-AMERICAN CHILDREN ON THE PRE-FIRST GRADE LEVEL.  (Book; MA Thesis at University of Texas at El Paso.)
1973--Lawrence Ferlinghetti, SALUTE ("...Bamboo or Torilla curtain...).  (Poetry.)
1978--Miami Herald, October 23, pg. 1, col. 6, abstract:  Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) plans to build steel and mesh barrier to separate congested areas of El Paso, Tex., from Juarez, Mexico.  Critics dub wall "Tortilla Curtain."
1978--Washington Post, October 24, pg. A6:  6 1/2-mile-long "tortilla curtain."
1979--Ellwyn R. Stoddard, EL PASO-CIUDAD JUAREZ RELATIONS AND THE "TORTILLA CURTAIN": A STUDY OF LOCAL ADAPTATION TO FEDERAL BORDER POLICIES.  (Book.)
1980--Teatro del Piojo, TORTILLA CURTAIN (other: Rangel, Ruben). (Play?)
1992--Daniel A. Gilewitch, THE BORDER FENCE AT EL PASO, TEXAS: SYMBOLISM, PRECEPTIONS, AND EFFECTIVENESS OF THE "TORTILLA CURTAIN."  (Book.)
1995--T. Coraghessan Boyle, THE TORTILLA CURTAIN.  (Novel.)

--------------------------------------------------------CAIPIRINHA

  From NEW CLASSIC COCKTAILS (1997) by Gary Regan and Mardee Haidin Regan, pg. 27:

THE CAIPIRINHA
A traditional Brazilian cocktail, origin unknown
  First off, you need to know how to pronounce two Portuguese words: _caipirinha_ (kai-purr-EEN-yuh) and _cachaca_ (kuh-SHAH-suh).  As any beach boy in Rio will tell you, the former is a traditional Brazilian mixed drink, the latter the name of the liquor used to make it.  The Caipirinha is Brazil's national drink and has been around for longer than anyone can remember; and yet it deserves a place in this book of new cocktails, simply because only in recent years has the drink gained popularity Stateside.  And if ever a drink could be called a classic, the Caipirinha is it.
    Roughly translated, the word _cipirinha_ means "small country bumpkin" or "hick," possibly because it is prepared and served in the same glass, without straining or any fancy machinations.

    The earliest OCLC WorldCat hit is Heitor Villa-Lobos A HISTORIA DA CAIPIRINHA (1940), a music score.  Lexis/Nexis Universe has it from 21 October 1984, New York Times, sec. 6, part 2, pg. 56, col. 1.  Literature Online has it only from 1993, in a Brian Cox poem called "A Week-end in Rio."
    I don't know why this doesn't show up earlier.  Quite a few of my modern drink books don't have "caipirinha."  I'll check the OED and other places.  This is one of the few drink "origin unknowns" in Regan's book.


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Nov 23 04:08:31 1999
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:08:31 -0800
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.200831.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: <AAllan at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 1999 5:58 AM
Subject: Yeah, Seattle


> I have two questions: 1. Is this really a distinguishing feature of
Seattle
> (youth?) vernacular? and
> 2. what exactly is it? A matter of intonation, of pronunciation, of
placement
> in discourse, of frequency of use?
>
> A writer for the Seattle Times, Jean Godden, included this item in a
column
> on Crotty's book without further comment, thereby implicitly agreeing with
> it, I suppose, but not helping the explanation.

I'm from SEattle, and I've heard some kids around here talk that way, but
I'm not sure if this particulary type of speech is peculiar to Our Fair
City.  My daughter(lives in California), says "yeah, yeah, yeah", all the
time.
Anne Gilbert


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Nov 23 04:53:31 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 20:53:31 -0800
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
In-Reply-To: <0.4916a73a.256aa5f1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.205331.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ok, this is my best guess. I think what Mr Crotty is referring to is a
matter of intonation. I thought about this off and on all day and, after
rereading the examples below, think that it is perfectly normal to hear in
Seattle and perhaps the PNW generally something like:
"She's a total fox." "YEAH-she-is"
"Man, that's a long commute!" "YEAH-t-is"
By which I mean a very quick response with a hard stress on "Yeah" and
then a sharp decrease in emphasis on the rest of the phrase.
The phrase does nothing more than to indicate agreement, usually strong
agreement with what has been said. It's equivalent to "Sure is!" or the
like.
I never thought of this as peculiar to Seattle, or to any place
else. Doesn't seem very tricky either, but maybe I've just been
doing it for so long ...

Perhaps Peter McGraw can help with the southern portion of the PNW
dialect.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Mon, 22 Nov 1999 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:

> According to Jim "the Mad Monk" Crotty's 1997 book, _How to Talk American_,
> "the most important and tricky piece of Seattle vernacular" is: "yeah."
> He adds: "It's almost _Fargo_-esque but different (not as dorky, almost
> surfer-like) and best understood by example. 'So you got mugged in New York?'
> 'Yeah I did.' 'She is a total fox.' 'Yeah she is.'"
>
> I have two questions: 1. Is this really a distinguishing feature of Seattle
> (youth?) vernacular? and
> 2. what exactly is it? A matter of intonation, of pronunciation, of placement
> in discourse, of frequency of use?
>
> A writer for the Seattle Times, Jean Godden, included this item in a column
> on Crotty's book without further comment, thereby implicitly agreeing with
> it, I suppose, but not helping the explanation.
>
> Thanks - Allan Metcalf
>


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 23 04:36:30 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:36:30 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: journalist's request]
Message-ID: <MON.22.NOV.1999.233630.0500.>

Hi all--

I got the following from this columnist, and told him that I couldn't
help him, but would be happy to ask you-all.  Not really dialectal, but
notice the PS at the bottom, which could be your opportunity to impress
the world with your favorite factoid.  I'd suggest responding to him
directly (and cc'ing the list if you like), as I'm not in much of a
position to act as go-between right now.

Lynne, who's whelmed and on the way to overwhelmed

Bill Sones wrote:

> Dear Dr. Murphy,
>
> I am coauthor of a weekly newspaper column called "Strange
> But True," now in about 50 papers worldwide (Cleveland Plain
> Dealer, Akron Beacon Journal, Chicago Sun-Times, Portland
> Oregonian, Hartford Courant, Ft. Worth Star-Telegram, Peoria
> Journal-Star, Ottawa Citizen, Halifax Herald, New Zealand
> Listener, Sur in English, Gulf News--United Arab Emirates,
> Zambia Daily Mail, etc).  We do the column in Q & A format,
> usually with three items per column, focusing on some of the
> ZANIER, MORE STARTLING byways of scientific research, such
> as dreams, voodoo, hypnosis, animal cognition, laws of
> happiness.  It is our belief that verifiable facts and
> information are more fun to read than sensationalistic stuff
> that doesn't stand up to scrutiny, though it may make for
> titillating headlines.  So, we're looking for the strange,
> but true.
>
> We wonder if you might help us proof the answer to the
> offbeat question below.  Does the answer seem accurate?  Are
> there other key aspects that should be mentioned?
>
> Thank you much for considering our request.
>
> By the way, I found your name and e-mail link by searching
> the Internet.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Bill Sones
> 2685 Euclid Heights Blvd. #6
> Cleveland Heights, Ohio 44106-2827
> strangetrue at ameritech.net

>      Q.  Why when you repeat your name over and over does it
> begin to sound odd, even unfamiliar?  Something similar
> happens when you stare a while at your face in a mirror.
>      A.  Psychologists talk of "semantic satiation," or
> meaning overload.  Now your name or face seem suddenly
> strange, as if some new aspect or oddness pervaded it.
> These are instances of "jamais vu" (never before seen),
> coined as the opposite of "deja vu" (already seen).
>      Well-known deja vu is the sudden sense of familiarity
> in a strange place, or feeling you've done something before
> when in fact you haven't, says Leonard George, Ph.D., in
> "Alternative Realities."  Jamais vu reverses this, with a
> familiar feature or object seeming suddenly novel.
>      You look at a friend and there's something different
> about her.  New lipstick or hairstyle?  The altered detail
> may elude you, but SOMETHING is different.  "Unrecognition
> may pervade everything you experience at the moment."
>      In the extreme, this becomes the "illusion of doubles":
> A close friend or family member is thought to have been
> replaced.  Modern victims tend to blame extraterrestrial
> aliens or secret government experiments.  In premodern
> times, fairies were believed to have kidnapped the loved one
> and substituted a "changeling."
>      In 1897, in Ireland, Michael Cleary became convinced
> his wife Bridget had been replaced by a changeling, and
> tortured her to death trying to extract a fairy confession.
> Then he set off into the woods, brandishing a knife, looking
> to set his "real" wife free.  "Have you no faith?," he
> defended himself to friends.  "Did you not know that it was
> not my wife, she was too fine to be my wife, she was two
> inches taller than my wife."
>      Cleary got 20 years for manslaughter.

PS  Have any favorite quirky linguistics facts or principles of a
strange but true nature?  E.g., Rich and I did an item about babbling
babies at a certain age running through the phonemes of their soo
language-to-be.  That sort of thing.  Thx!!

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 23 05:16:36 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:16:36 -0500
Subject: fat chance
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.001636.0500.>

Do any of you phrase-chaser-downers know the origin of the phrase "fat
chance"?  I'm wondering if the original usage was ironic, since a "fat
chance" is really a "slim chance" and since you can only seem to use it
as an exclamation on its own--well at least according to my intuition.
I wouldn't say "He had a fat chance of getting there."  I tried to do a
quick web search for the phrase to see how others use it, but was
inundated by diet sites and fat farms.

Lynne, who likes antonyms rather too much

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov 23 12:50:21 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:50:21 -0400
Subject: fat chance
In-Reply-To: <383A2332.E6F20713@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.085021.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:16 AM -0500 11/23/99, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>Do any of you phrase-chaser-downers know the origin of the phrase "fat
>chance"?  I'm wondering if the original usage was ironic, since a "fat
>chance" is really a "slim chance" and since you can only seem to use it
>as an exclamation on its own--well at least according to my intuition.
>I wouldn't say "He had a fat chance of getting there."  I tried to do a
>quick web search for the phrase to see how others use it, but was
>inundated by diet sites and fat farms.
>
>Lynne, who likes antonyms rather too much
>

Pretty sure it was ironic ab initio. Steven Pinker discusses the "fat
chance" in the same section as "I could care less" in his chapter on the
Language Mavens in _The Language Instinct_ and proposes an ironic origin
for both.  This is a fairly productive pattern, as attested in e.g.

 A (fat) lot of good THAT ever did me.

where the negative character of the apparently positive quantifier is
supported by the negative polarity item it licenses.  I haven't done an
early cite search on "fat chance", though.

Larry
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From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov 23 16:39:06 1999
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:39:06 -0800
Subject: Yeah, Seattle
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.10.9911221818550.30318-100000@saul9.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.083906.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was wondering when we were going to hear from Allen about this one.  My
guess was the same as his.  I still maintain that commas are commonly used
to "spell" intonation patterns, and in this case what the speakers do is
"leave out the comma."  I.e., they intone an utterance like "Yeah it is" as
a single sentence (with one primary stress and one falling intonation--both
on "Yeah"--and flat intonation on "it is," or sometimes with primary stress
and falling intonation on "Yeah" and rising intonation on "is") instead of
as two--i.e., "Yeah, it is" (with primary stress and falling intonation on
both "yeah" and "is").

I've heard this intonation pattern, but not for quite awhile, and haven't
ever associated it with the Pacific Northwest.  I have no idea where I've
heard it, but I have the impression it was from college-age speakers.  For
all I know they might have been from Seattle.  It's not prevalent enough
around here for me to have noticed, anyway.

Peter Mc.

--On Mon, Nov 22, 1999 8:53 PM -0800 "A. Maberry"
<maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU> wrote:

> Ok, this is my best guess. I think what Mr Crotty is referring to is a
> matter of intonation. I thought about this off and on all day and, after
> rereading the examples below, think that it is perfectly normal to hear in
> Seattle and perhaps the PNW generally something like:
> "She's a total fox." "YEAH-she-is"
> "Man, that's a long commute!" "YEAH-t-is"
> By which I mean a very quick response with a hard stress on "Yeah" and
> then a sharp decrease in emphasis on the rest of the phrase.
> The phrase does nothing more than to indicate agreement, usually strong
> agreement with what has been said. It's equivalent to "Sure is!" or the
> like.
> I never thought of this as peculiar to Seattle, or to any place
> else. Doesn't seem very tricky either, but maybe I've just been
> doing it for so long ...
>
> Perhaps Peter McGraw can help with the southern portion of the PNW
> dialect.
>
> Allen
> maberry at u.washington.edu
>
> On Mon, 22 Nov 1999 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>> According to Jim "the Mad Monk" Crotty's 1997 book, _How to Talk
>> American_, "the most important and tricky piece of Seattle vernacular"
>> is: "yeah." He adds: "It's almost _Fargo_-esque but different (not as
>> dorky, almost surfer-like) and best understood by example. 'So you got
>> mugged in New York?' 'Yeah I did.' 'She is a total fox.' 'Yeah she is.'"
>>
>> I have two questions: 1. Is this really a distinguishing feature of
>> Seattle (youth?) vernacular? and
>> 2. what exactly is it? A matter of intonation, of pronunciation, of
>> placement in discourse, of frequency of use?
>>
>> A writer for the Seattle Times, Jean Godden, included this item in a
>> column on Crotty's book without further comment, thereby implicitly
>> agreeing with it, I suppose, but not helping the explanation.
>>
>> Thanks - Allan Metcalf
>>



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Nov 23 18:05:38 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:05:38 -0800
Subject: Sangria; Tartini; H & C
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.100538.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Europe in the late 60's I purchased what I recall
were called sangria oranges from Spain, blood red
around the stem but the rest orange in color.  The
flesh inside had the same dual coloration.  So my
question: is the sangria orange a natural variation
and the drink possibly named for it, or was the orange
perhaps developed to take advantage of the name
recognition of the drink? (Or are the names of the
orange and drink unrelated?)

JIM

--- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> SANGRIA
>
>      Is "Sangria" Mexican?
>      This is from Barnhart's Dictionary of
> Etymology:
>
> _sangria_ n. Spanish drink made of red wine mixed
> with fruit juices.  1736
> _sangre_; later _sangaree_ (1785),  _sangria_
> (1954); of uncertain origin.
> The word is attested in English nearly a century
> before it is recorded in
> Spanish, and Corominas considers it improbable that
> the word is derived from
> Spanish _sangria_ bleeding.
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 23 18:12:46 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:12:46 EST
Subject: Jerusalem Syndrome; Sangria
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.131246.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

JERUSALEM SYNDROME

   "Jerusalem Syndrome" was mentioned today at About.com.  It's a condition where people visit Jerusalem and become messianic nuts.  It's said that this disease has caught millennial fever.
   Does Barnhart have it?
   (Tamony files "Sangria" response attached.)
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From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 23 17:48:05 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 12:48:05 -0500
Subject: Jerusalem Syndrome; Sangria
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.124805.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There was a story on Jerusalem Syndrome on the reincarnated (Fox TV) version
of Michael Moore's show 'TV Nation'.  It was pretty interesting--they
interviewed lots of Jerusalem psychiatrists.  Here's the blurb from their
web site.  This was show #2 in their Fox days--I don't have a date for that,
though.  A couple of years ago?

Lynne, who's accustomed to people coming to Waco and thinking they're the
Messiah

Jerusalem Syndrome
Each year millions of tourists visit the Holy Land. Occasionally, a few of
them get off the tour
bus and believe they are Jesus. Doctors in Jerusalem have named this
phenomenon the
"Jerusalem Syndrome." TV Nation walks the path of the prophets to
investigate.


----------
>From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Jerusalem Syndrome; Sangria
>Date: Tue, Nov 23, 1999, 1:12 PM
>

>JERUSALEM SYNDROME
>
>   "Jerusalem Syndrome" was mentioned today at About.com.  It's a condition
>where people visit Jerusalem and become messianic nuts.  It's said that
>this disease has caught millennial fever.
>   Does Barnhart have it?
>   (Tamony files "Sangria" response attached.)
>


From bergdahl at OHIO.EDU  Tue Nov 23 18:43:00 1999
From: bergdahl at OHIO.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:43:00 -0500
Subject: Sangria; Tartini; H & C
In-Reply-To: <19991123180538.11140.rocketmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.134300.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In Europe in the late 60's I purchased what I recall
>were called sangria oranges from Spain, blood red
>around the stem but the rest orange in color.  The
>flesh inside had the same dual coloration.  So my
>question: is the sangria orange a natural variation
>and the drink possibly named for it, or was the orange
>perhaps developed to take advantage of the name
>recognition of the drink? (Or are the names of the
>orange and drink unrelated?)
>
could these be Blutorangen in Germany or "blood oranges" in the US?

____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl            tel:
(740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov 23 22:04:35 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 17:04:35 -0500
Subject: Meme Identification
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.170435.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

I've been seeing this in tech circles for a while now and I'd like to point it out
here, for the record.

It's the simple identification of a phrase that the author, writing in a casual
context, knows has joined the current Internet discussion memes. This is often done
simply via capitalization, but also by the adding of the suffix of TM or (tm) or some
other version of the trademark symbol  (? on a Mac).

"Good Thing (tm)" is one. I believe it originates from Marth Stewart. Another is
"They Just Don't Get It (tm)." Below are two citations of many.


http://slashdot.org/articles/99/03/29/192234.shtml

The basic platforms and protocols will be open (as if they aren't already), but
there will always be a place for proprietary software: production apps, multimedia apps,
games, etc. This will be a Good Thing, and profits made from proprietary software
will then be turned around to fund OSS projects that will benefit everyone.


http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/11/22/155207&mode=flat

Users ANYWHERE can access web/ftp/whatever sites on the other side of the globe as
easily as they can the ISP downtown. Legislators just can't seem to fathom this. They
Just Don't Get It (tm). And unless the US plans to blockade packets from whole
nations (not gonna happen).


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov 23 23:56:17 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 18:56:17 -0500
Subject: Sangria; Tartini; H & C
In-Reply-To: <19991123180538.11140.rocketmail@web1301.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.185617.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There here guys sound like Seville (Sevilla) oranges to me.

dInIs (who encountered his first white wine sangria [making the blood
analogies pale] in Brasil)



>In Europe in the late 60's I purchased what I recall
>were called sangria oranges from Spain, blood red
>around the stem but the rest orange in color.  The
>flesh inside had the same dual coloration.  So my
>question: is the sangria orange a natural variation
>and the drink possibly named for it, or was the orange
>perhaps developed to take advantage of the name
>recognition of the drink? (Or are the names of the
>orange and drink unrelated?)
>
>JIM
>
>--- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>> SANGRIA
>>
>>      Is "Sangria" Mexican?
>>      This is from Barnhart's Dictionary of
>> Etymology:
>>
>> _sangria_ n. Spanish drink made of red wine mixed
>> with fruit juices.  1736
>> _sangre_; later _sangaree_ (1785),  _sangria_
>> (1954); of uncertain origin.
>> The word is attested in English nearly a century
>> before it is recorded in
>> Spanish, and Corominas considers it improbable that
>> the word is derived from
>> Spanish _sangria_ bleeding.
>>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Nov 24 00:57:48 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 19:57:48 -0500
Subject: Jerusalem Syndrome; Sangria
Message-ID: <TUE.23.NOV.1999.195748.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jerusalem Syndrome or Jerusalem syndrome

Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 11.2), earliest date = 1987?  At
the time there were in excess of 100 quotations.

It is also entered in "Among the New Words" in AmSp (Vol. 73.1).

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion
www.highlands.com/Lexik


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 24 05:55:44 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 00:55:44 EST
Subject: Caipirinha (continued)
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.005544.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CAIPIRINHA (continued)

"Tall and tan and young and lovely
The girl from Ipanema goes walking
And when she passes, each one she passes goes--ah!"
--THE GIRL FROM IPANEMA (song lyrics)

     I'll nail Brazil's national drink.  Give me some time.

17 October 1953, NEW YORKER, pg. 82, col. 2:  What he gets are black cigars,
boxes of matches to light them with, black chickens with their throats slit,
and, most favored of all, bottles of _cachaca_, a violent Brazilian drink
made from sugar cane.

7 March 1965, NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE, pg. 30, col. 1:  The sand was strewn
with white flowers, mostly lilies, and quantities of "white" alcohol called
_cachaca_, were drunk.

18 October 1975, SATURDAY REVIEW, pg. 24, col. 3:  It was just such a tableau
that is said to have inspired "The Girl From Ipanema," a song that has now
become a standard.  "The girl" has matured to a matron, but in her time she
captivated the songwriters gathered in a small, off-beach cafe then called
Velloso.  Now the music and lyrics are enshrined on the wall, and the cafe is
called "A Garota de Ipanema," a place to resurrect memories, invoke musical
history, sip a _caipirinha_--clear sugar cane brandy, mashed sugar, and
limes--nibble a _sandulche_ of _peru_ (that's the turkey of Brazil) and
behold this year's crop of beauties promenading in The String, hopeful of
inspiring some artist to literary or musical creation.

     Ah!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
JERUSALEM SYNDROME (continued)

     The Dow Jones database has 420 hits for "Jerusalem syndrome."  There
were 135 hits up to 12-31-97, 125 hits in 1998, and there have been 160 hits
so far in 1999.
      The first citation, as the _Barnhart's_ points out (adding "?"), is
from 1987; a play with the title of "Jerusalem Syndrome" opened that year.
Yair Bar-El of Jerusalem's Kfar Shaul Hospital appears to have discovered the
malady.  A 10-1-1994 article in the Peoria Journal states that the syndrome
was "first recognized 14 years ago."


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov 24 12:17:10 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 07:17:10 -0500
Subject: Caipirinha (continued)
In-Reply-To: <0.b88be5d3.256cd7e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.071710.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not quite. It's true that the booze in a caipirinha (literally, little
hillbilly [fem.]) is cacha?a, but it is chopped up whole limes which get
mashed. The bitterness of the zest from the skins as well as the pulp juice
contribute to the distinctive taste. ("Mashed sugar" didn't make much sense
anyhow did it?)

dInIs (who makes them from time to time just to bring back memories)

 >CAIPIRINHA (continued)
>
>"Tall and tan and young and lovely
>The girl from Ipanema goes walking
>And when she passes, each one she passes goes--ah!"
>--THE GIRL FROM IPANEMA (song lyrics)
>
>     I'll nail Brazil's national drink.  Give me some time.
>
>17 October 1953, NEW YORKER, pg. 82, col. 2:  What he gets are black cigars,
>boxes of matches to light them with, black chickens with their throats slit,
>and, most favored of all, bottles of _cachaca_, a violent Brazilian drink
>made from sugar cane.
>
>7 March 1965, NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE, pg. 30, col. 1:  The sand was strewn
>with white flowers, mostly lilies, and quantities of "white" alcohol called
>_cachaca_, were drunk.
>
>18 October 1975, SATURDAY REVIEW, pg. 24, col. 3:  It was just such a tableau
>that is said to have inspired "The Girl From Ipanema," a song that has now
>become a standard.  "The girl" has matured to a matron, but in her time she
>captivated the songwriters gathered in a small, off-beach cafe then called
>Velloso.  Now the music and lyrics are enshrined on the wall, and the cafe is
>called "A Garota de Ipanema," a place to resurrect memories, invoke musical
>history, sip a _caipirinha_--clear sugar cane brandy, mashed sugar, and
>limes--nibble a _sandulche_ of _peru_ (that's the turkey of Brazil) and
>behold this year's crop of beauties promenading in The String, hopeful of
>inspiring some artist to literary or musical creation.
>
>     Ah!
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>---------------------------------------------
>JERUSALEM SYNDROME (continued)
>
>     The Dow Jones database has 420 hits for "Jerusalem syndrome."  There
>were 135 hits up to 12-31-97, 125 hits in 1998, and there have been 160 hits
>so far in 1999.
>      The first citation, as the _Barnhart's_ points out (adding "?"), is
>from 1987; a play with the title of "Jerusalem Syndrome" opened that year.
>Yair Bar-El of Jerusalem's Kfar Shaul Hospital appears to have discovered the
>malady.  A 10-1-1994 article in the Peoria Journal states that the syndrome
>was "first recognized 14 years ago."


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Nov 24 19:22:23 1999
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:22:23 -0800
Subject: No soap
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.112223.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A friend remarked to me yesterday on the expression "no soap" (meaning
"nothing doing") and asked if I had any idea where it came from
(etymologically, not geographically speaking).  I didn't.  Does anybody out
there?  I'm not aware that it's regional.

Peter Mc.

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 24 19:45:40 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:45:40 EST
Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.144540.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anybody commented on the complimentary epithet "hella good"? Seems to be
among young people on the Pacific Coast.
- Allan Metcalf


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Wed Nov 24 19:25:52 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:25:52 -0500
Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.142552.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Sodus NY (b/w Rochester & Syracuse on Lake Ontario), there's a cheese
company called Helluva Good Cheese.  I've heard "helluva good" all around,
but not widespread.

Lynne
----------
>From: AAllan at AOL.COM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
>Date: Wed, Nov 24, 1999, 2:45 PM
>

>Has anybody commented on the complimentary epithet "hella good"? Seems to be
>among young people on the Pacific Coast.
>- Allan Metcalf


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Wed Nov 24 20:33:55 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:33:55 -0500
Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.153355.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Wednesday, November 24, 1999, AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:
>Has anybody commented on the complimentary epithet "hella good"? Seems to be
>among young people on the Pacific Coast.
>- Allan Metcalf
>

We've got a few mentions of "hella" in various contexts in the ADS-L archive.

Hella, for me, has been one of those words writers use consciously, kind of like the
word "redux." Of course, it's because the word is outside of my peer group and
social circle; the most likely way I would encounter such words is via writing.

Some of the more pertinent posts:


On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Jesse T Sheidlower wrote:

  Not entirely sure; it depends on how accurate the
  transcription is. "Hella-" is an intensive prefix like
  "mega-," that has been in use at least since the late
  '80s. I've never heard "hawkin'" before, but I have
  (rarely) encounted "honkin'" meaning roughly "exciting;
  jammin', etc." Perhaps these are different realizations
  of the same word.


Mary Bucholtz:

I'd be interested in knowing where you've heard "hella." As far as I
can tell it's restricted to Northern California, esp. the Bay Area--does
that fit your own observations? I wouldn't characterize it as a prefix,
incidentally--what leads you to describe it this way?


Dan Moonhawk Alford:

I agree about the accuracy; I'll ask my student to say it for me. Re:
below, yes -- this is Northern California data, where what is "hella-"
here is often "hecka-" in LA. An emergent dialect split along the lines
of "101" vs "the 101".


--
Grant Barrett
gbarrett at americandialect.org


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Nov 24 22:38:55 1999
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:38:55 -0800
Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
In-Reply-To: <01JIPW20D48IB0YE62@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.143855.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Wed, Nov 24, 1999 2:25 PM -0500 "M. Lynne Murphy"
<M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU> wrote:

Helluva Good Cheese <snip>  but not widespread.
>

Groan!!!  :)

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM  Wed Nov 24 23:21:40 1999
From: bookrat at BOOKRAT.COM (Bookrat)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 15:21:40 -0800
Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
In-Reply-To: <0.adfe4a27.256d9a64@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.152140.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:45 AM -0800 11/24/99, AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:
>Has anybody commented on the complimentary epithet "hella good"? Seems to be
>among young people on the Pacific Coast.

I don't know about "hella good", but "hella" as an adjective has been used
by young people in my region (San Jose, California) at least since the late
80s (Some of those young people have inevitably become slightly older
people.)  My impression is that it was first in use in the alternative rock
scene, and spread out from there -- I know I saw it in an alternative 'zine
(along with "hecka") circa 1990.

I can testify that it is still in use -- just a couple of weeks ago one of
my co-workers turned to another and said, "It's been hella busy today."

(My peers and I work with a lot of mostly twenty-something college
students.  We're all about staying contemporary. :-)  )

Ken Miller
Assistant Drone
Johnson Institute for the Study of Harmless Drudgery


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Nov 24 23:53:39 1999
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:53:39 -0600
Subject: "No soap!"
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.175339.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Peter McGraw (Nov.24)  inquires:

>A friend remarked to me yesterday on the expression "no soap" (meaning
>"nothing doing") and asked if I had any idea where it came from
>(etymologically, not geographically speaking).  I didn't.  Does anybody out
>there?  I'm not aware that it's regional.

**** I have treated this expression in:
Gerald Leonard Cohen: _Studies in Slang_, part 2 (= _Forum Anglicum_, vol.
16), Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang, 1989.  pp.150-151; article title: ' _No
Soap!_ "Nothing Doing, No Go"'
--------The article ponts out that  'soap' was a criminal slang term for
'money.'  Cf.  an 1865 attestation  from _Leaves From The Diary of a
Celerated Burglar and Pickpocket_ 1865 :  'How They "Reefed" Up His
"Leather" And Secured His "Soap".'

   So the original context of 'No soap!' was apparently one in which a
criminal was asked for a loan (or was about to be asked by a perennial
borrower.).  The reply 'No soap' simply meant 'No money.'

    Cf. also slang 'No dice!' (= Nothing doing!)--clearly with an original
reference to refusing dice to a gambler.  And  cf.  an 1865  example of 'No
bottle'  with the same meaning ('Nothing doing;  no go), clearly from an
original context  of a bartender refusing a bottle of wine to a customer:

    _(Leaves...._, 1865):  'she [a thieving hen] flew over onto the counter
and "grannied" [looked at]  the "slide" [ apparently: money box], but that
was no "bottle," it was "screwed" [locked];  so there was nothing for it
but dry goods.'

    So, 'no soap,' 'no dice,' 'no bottle'--all originally  expressing
refusal to someone unreliable.

----Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 25 05:27:06 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 00:27:06 EST
Subject: "No soap!"
Message-ID: <THU.25.NOV.1999.002706.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     "No Soap!" was used in World War I.  It should be in the archives--I
thought I posted a WWI list here that included it.  "No soap, radio!"
followed.
     James A. Beard wrote a terrific series on drinks for HOUSE & GARDEN in
the 1950s-1960s.  This is from October 1959, pg. 188 and pg. 190:

_FAVORITE DRINKS_
_FROM SOUTH AMERICA_
   (_Cachaca_ is mentioned at the start.  The large treatment is given to
Batida I, Batida II, Coco de Agua, Champagne with Pineapple, Absinthe
Cocktail, Batido, Vaina, Pisco Sour I, and Pisco II--ed.)

     "Caipirinha" is never mentioned--and Beard wrote that he'd lived in
Brazil.  That 1975 citation is still our first.  I've looked through a bunch
of 1950s and early 1960s article on Rio, and "cachaca" is there but
"caipirinha" is not.  All indications are a late 1960s-early 1970s coinage
for what's been described as "Brazil's national drink."
      Happy Thanksgiving!


From greg at PULLIAM.ORG  Thu Nov 25 05:26:18 1999
From: greg at PULLIAM.ORG (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 23:26:18 -0600
Subject: geek vs. nerd article
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.232618.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Go here for an article about these terms, their current usage, and
their etymology.  I haven't checked for validity.


http://www.news-observer.com/daily/1999/11/15/biz00.html
-
Greg


From sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM  Thu Nov 25 06:00:09 1999
From: sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM (Chuck Borsos)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 22:00:09 -0800
Subject: Jerusalem Syndrome
Message-ID: <WED.24.NOV.1999.220009.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Robert Stone's novel Damascus Gate discusses Jerusalem Syndrome


From ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 25 16:01:39 1999
From: ezra_50 at HOTMAIL.COM (D. Ezra Johnson)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:01:39 PST
Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
Message-ID: <THU.25.NOV.1999.080139.PST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Hella" seems to fill the same niche as "wicked" here around Boston.

But "wicked" can be adjective or adverb -- as can "helluva" -- but "hella"
seems to be an adverb only... Is that correct?

What other regional substitutions for "very!" are there?

Dan

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


From c0654038 at TECHST02.TECHNION.AC.IL  Thu Nov 25 18:27:34 1999
From: c0654038 at TECHST02.TECHNION.AC.IL (Alexey I. Fuchs)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 20:27:34 +0200
Subject: fat chance
In-Reply-To: <383A2332.E6F20713@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.25.NOV.1999.202734.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Do any of you phrase-chaser-downers know the origin of the phrase "fat
> chance"?  I'm wondering if the original usage was ironic, since a "fat
> chance" is really a "slim chance" and since you can only seem to use it
> as an exclamation on its own--well at least according to my intuition.
> I wouldn't say "He had a fat chance of getting there."  I tried to do a
> quick web search for the phrase to see how others use it, but was
> inundated by diet sites and fat farms.
>
> Lynne, who likes antonyms rather too much


        I would suppose that adding "fat" before chance to indicate that
the chance is small (whereas "fat" is intuitively associated with "big")
could be done to show that the chance is especially easy to escape. In
wrestling, as far as I know, putting fat on one's body is an illegal move
made to the end of slipping out of the rival's grip. Seems like a very
narrow usage, but there are idioms in different languages where "fat" is
related to the idea of escaping or slipping away.

                                                        Alexey


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Nov 25 17:28:53 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 12:28:53 -0500
Subject: Yankee DOODLE
Message-ID: <THU.25.NOV.1999.122853.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had an inquiry concerning the origin of _Doodle_ as in _Yankee
Doodle_.  Did it come from earlier (1628) _doodle_ meaning "a silly or
foolish person" [ultimately from German _dupeltopf_ meaning "simpleton]?

Happy Thanksgiving,
David K. Barnhart
Barnhart at highlands.com


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Thu Nov 25 21:57:20 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:57:20 -0500
Subject: fat chance
Message-ID: <THU.25.NOV.1999.165720.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry Popik actually answered my query privately and directed me to the
RHDAS, which confirmed my suspicion that "fat chance" is historically
sarcastic.  "Slim chance" precedes it.

Lynne
----------
>From: "Alexey I. Fuchs" <c0654038 at TECHST02.TECHNION.AC.IL>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: fat chance
>Date: Thu, Nov 25, 1999, 1:27 PM
>

>> Do any of you phrase-chaser-downers know the origin of the phrase "fat
>> chance"?  I'm wondering if the original usage was ironic, since a "fat
>> chance" is really a "slim chance" and since you can only seem to use it
>> as an exclamation on its own--well at least according to my intuition.
>> I wouldn't say "He had a fat chance of getting there."  I tried to do a
>> quick web search for the phrase to see how others use it, but was
>> inundated by diet sites and fat farms.
>>
>> Lynne, who likes antonyms rather too much
>
>
>        I would suppose that adding "fat" before chance to indicate that
>the chance is small (whereas "fat" is intuitively associated with "big")
>could be done to show that the chance is especially easy to escape. In
>wrestling, as far as I know, putting fat on one's body is an illegal move
>made to the end of slipping out of the rival's grip. Seems like a very
>narrow usage, but there are idioms in different languages where "fat" is
>related to the idea of escaping or slipping away.
>
>                                                        Alexey


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Nov 26 04:22:13 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 20:22:13 -0800
Subject: Yankee DOODLE
In-Reply-To: <msg48441.thr-cf98f6.f555e@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <THU.25.NOV.1999.202213.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's the OED derivation. Actually it's says [cf. L.G. dudeltopf, -dop,
simpleton, noodle, lit. night-cap]. This might be a question that requires
a look at Grimm's Deutsches Woerterbuch, which I won't have access to
until Monday. Apparently of different orgin than the "dudel" in
"Dudelsack", "bagpipe" which OED is Slavic, cf. Polish "dudlio"=bagpipe.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, Barnhart wrote:

> I had an inquiry concerning the origin of _Doodle_ as in _Yankee
> Doodle_.  Did it come from earlier (1628) _doodle_ meaning "a silly or
> foolish person" [ultimately from German _dupeltopf_ meaning "simpleton]?
>
> Happy Thanksgiving,
> David K. Barnhart
> Barnhart at highlands.com
>


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Nov 26 04:06:32 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:06:32 -0500
Subject: Yeah, yeah, yeah
Message-ID: <THU.25.NOV.1999.230632.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I heard this lately on a local FM station used by a panelist.  It
reminded me a bit of the blah-blah-blah of a few years ago.  He said it
several times during the session.  Each time it was said not only
"without" the hyphens (i.e. very rapidly) but with a trailing off in
stress as if he couldn't get it out fast enough.  My impression was
that he was impatient with the other panelists.  It made me think also
of the popular use of O.K. inserted into a long statement in which the
speaker is punctuating the delivery at certain stages in the
development of a complex thought.

David Barnhart
barnhart at highlands.com


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 26 06:27:20 1999
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 01:27:20 EST
Subject: Hella good Thanksgiving!
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.012720.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Among Southeners of all ages and ethnic backgrounds, "pretty" is used for
"very," but not for "very, very."   For "oikay," I've often heard, "so so"
and "fair to middling."
                                        PAT


From sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU  Fri Nov 26 07:16:19 1999
From: sussex at LINGUA.ARTS.UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. Roly Sussex)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 17:16:19 +1000
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.171619.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear colleagues,

This is a kind of language request; forgive me if I am imposing
on anyone's patience.

I think I have read somewhere that Lord Kelvin (or Rutherford? a
major scientist anyhow) said something like:
        if you can't explain your scientific ideas in terms that
        a milkmaid could understand, then there is something
        wrong with either you or the idea
(not the milkmaid! ... it could be nursemaid ...)

My question is: does anyone know where this came from? The Web
is most unhelpful, and I've exhausted all my usual sources of
answers for questions from out of left field.

I'd be most grateful if anyone can put me out of my misery.

Roly Sussex
The University of Queensland


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 26 16:10:13 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:10:13 -0400
Subject: fat chance
In-Reply-To: <01JIRFNNCBPEB0ZBCF@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.121013.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Barry Popik actually answered my query privately and directed me to the
>RHDAS, which confirmed my suspicion that "fat chance" is historically
>sarcastic.  "Slim chance" precedes it.
>
>Lynne
>----------
>>From: "Alexey I. Fuchs" <c0654038 at TECHST02.TECHNION.AC.IL>
>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>Subject: Re: fat chance
>>Date: Thu, Nov 25, 1999, 1:27 PM
>>
>>        I would suppose that adding "fat" before chance to indicate that
>>the chance is small (whereas "fat" is intuitively associated with "big")
>>could be done to show that the chance is especially easy to escape. In
>>wrestling, as far as I know, putting fat on one's body is an illegal move
>>made to the end of slipping out of the rival's grip. Seems like a very
>>narrow usage, but there are idioms in different languages where "fat" is
>>related to the idea of escaping or slipping away.
>>
>>                                                        Alexey

Yes, I'm afraid my intuitions go with Lynne and Barry here, much as I
appreciate the image of folks pursued by but easily outdistancing those
overweight chances waddling after them.  The image does get a bit fuzzier
when you remember that the chances you're trying to escape from are ones
you want to be caught by:

        Fat chance the 49ers will make the playoffs.
        ??Fat chance the Colts will lose the rest of their games.

(That is, the "fat chance" is the one you wish would come to fruition.)
And it's not just those obese chances that are waddling along, it's also
those metabolically challenged lots of good ("A fat lot of good THAT'll
do").  Positive intensifiers are used in English in a wide range of
constructions with sarcastic or ironic effect, and this is just one of many
such.  Among the others:

        He's a real genius.    [esp. with sarcastic nasalization] =
                                'He's a total idiot'
        What a brilliant/great move.
        You're a great help.   NOT!
(the Retro-NOT, discussed here extensively a few years ago)
        You're a great help, I DON'T think.
(cf. OED on THINK, III.9.b. "used after an ironical statement to
indicate that the reverse is intended")

Most of the attested cites for these retroactively-cancelling negatives
(see Sheidlower & Lighter on Retro-NOT in Am. Speech 1993) involve an
emotive positive intensifier ("great", "fine", "brilliant", "nice") in the
ironic utterance, analogous to our "fat chance".

Larry
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From madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Fri Nov 26 17:21:10 1999
From: madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:21:10 -0800
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.9911101147330.3722-100000@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.092110.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

this has publishing lingo:

     Author:  International Paper Company.

           Title:  Pocket pal : a graphic arts production handbook.
                   11th ed.  New York : International Paper Co., 1974.
                   191 p. : ill. ; 19 cm.

        Subjects:  Printing--Handbooks, manuals, etc.

probably available in more up-to-date edition by now.

sylvia swift
madonna at socrates.berkeley.edu


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Nov 26 21:42:58 1999
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:42:58 -0700
Subject: Hospital slang
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.144258.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The following was sent to me by a chief surgical resident of a Manhattan hospital:

boxed: v died rapidly "that jumper boxed up a storm"

bagged: v to shoot someone in the lower abdomen in order to cause an injury requiring a colostomy, reportedly an L.A. usage

malkarmagenize: v to create bad karma; "he malkarmagenized us by wishing us an easy night on call, now all hell's going to break loose -that malkarmagenizer!"

bus: n ambulance "that guy barfed (bled, defecated, exploded) all over the bus"

shake and bake: adj to have a high fever, alt. early alcohol withdrawal

suck-cut: n from Wayne's World, liposuction

carriage trade: n having practice restricted to wealthy patients

chits: n short for chitlins, small intestines "that guy had his chits hanging out!"

code master: n one who excels at bringing people back from cardiac arrest

trauma mama: n female chief resident who excels at trauma surgery

lock in: adj refers ICU on-call where the resident cannot leave the ICU

medatrons: n residents in the department of medicine, friendly confreres of surgeons

turf: v to transfer the patient to another service (usually the department of medicine)

placement: n disposition of the patient, often very difficult in the case of the homeless, unethically solved with a turf

HMO+: adj state of being covered by a bad health maintenance organization and likely to suffer because of it, like being HIV+.

flamethrower: n Bovie electrocautery, a device that coagulates blood and tissue with alternating electrical current

extra crispy: adj highest setting on electrocautery (electric scalpel)

stun: adj lightest effective setting on the electrocautery "set the Bovie on stun."

FMG's: n foreign medical graduates, needed to fill vacant residency positions not filled by US graduates

circle jerk: n attendings calling on unnecessary consultations from friends in other specialties when the diagnosis is clear; alt usage, calling numerous consults for medicolegal reasons

W.O.F.F.: abbr will operate for food, surgical resident's status in life

Tubes and Fingers in Every Hole: phr essential part of trauma resuscitation

Surgical Nutrition Rounds: n lunch or dinner, usually announced over PA

troll: n intern

punt: v delay, "Let's punt, get a medicine consult."; alt a synonym for turf

WHMO: n HMO on-hold music on speakerphone for the enjoyment of the ward

Preparation-H: adj state of having attended Harvard college, medical school, and residency at a Harvard-affiliated hospital, used by people in Boston or by people who hate Boston, ie just about everyone

Cipro slut, Fluconazole floozy, Bristol-Mayer babe, etc: n mini-skirt clad female drug company representative

doing my job: v lying to HMO's about the severity of a patient's condition to get a medically indicated procedure, medication, or test approved

New York thing: n a condition particular to New York where doctors (and sometimes patients, sadly) have to beg and plead to non-medical hospital staff to get things done; "I had to grovel to housekeeping to get that patient's vomit mopped up... it's a New York thing."; there is also a Boston thing. 

Hillaried: adj rhymes with pilloried, when something popular and sensible is made unpalatable by the personage championing it

bisque: n pus that looks (and smells) like bisque, var salmon bisque, lobster bisque

chowder: n thick creamy pus that looks like chowder because it's chunky

minestrone: n chunky, more liquified reddish pus that looks like minestrone

seize: v from seizure, literally having a seizure, feel exhilaration and elation, "Haag seized when he found out we were letting him have this weekend off."


W.S. Michael Park, MD
Chief Resident
Dept of Surgery
in some hospital in Manhattan


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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 26 18:58:04 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 14:58:04 -0400
Subject: "Jerusalem Syndrome"
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.145804.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For those not yet O.D.'d on the Syndrome, there's an article in today's New
York Times (11/26/99, A13), "Jerusalem Forecasts Sudden Surge of
'Saviors'", a Reuters dispatch.  The article informs us that the incidence
of J.S. has picked up about 50-60% already, with more in sight by the
millennium.  Here's an excerpt:
===================
   Some sufferers arrive mentally disturbed and become convinced they are
biblical figures:  Old Testament prophets, King David, Jesus, John the
Baptist, or the Virgin Mary.  Others come to Jerusalem with visions of the
end of the world.  Still others arrive with no evident disorder, yet then
feel compelled to don white robes--sometimes the sheets from their hotel
beds--and preach rambling sermons.
===================

Wonder if the local hostelries might consider shifting to colored sheets
until the millennium arrives.  That would either discourage the practice
or, at worst, make for a more festive syndrome.

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 26 19:04:22 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:04:22 -0400
Subject: Jerusalem Syndrome, part 2:  attribution
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.150422.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oh, I forgot to note that in case this hadn't come up in the previous
postings on the topic (it probably has, but I didn't save the posts) the
aforementioned Reuters dispatch cites "Dr. Yair Bar-El, the Jerusalem
district psychiatrist who identified the syndrome in 1982."

Larry


From gibbens at EROLS.COM  Sat Nov 27 01:59:15 1999
From: gibbens at EROLS.COM (Elizabeth Gibbens)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 20:59:15 -0500
Subject: So-So
Message-ID: <FRI.26.NOV.1999.205915.0500.GIBBENS@EROLS.COM>

I agree about "pretty" for "very."

And in Southern Louisiana--Cajun country--we used to say "comme ci comme ca"
for "so-so" or "O.K."


Elizabeth Gibbens


----- Original Message -----
From: <P2052 at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 1999 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: Hella good Thanksgiving!


> Among Southeners of all ages and ethnic backgrounds, "pretty" is used for
> "very," but not for "very, very."   For "oikay," I've often heard, "so so"
> and "fair to middling."
>                                         PAT
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 27 09:30:11 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 04:30:11 EST
Subject: Hospital slang
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.043011.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     See Jerry Dunn's IDIOM SAVANT (1997), "Medical Workers," pages 3-16.
Almost none of IDIOM's terms are duplicates with Gareth's posting!
     The following acronyms have been circluating on the web (see deja.com)
since 8-9-99, supposedly from the book WHY FIRE ENGINES ARE RED:

MUH--messed up heart
PBS--pretty bad shape
PCL--pre-code looking
HIBGIA--had it before, got it again
CCFCCP--coo coo for Cocoa Puffs
CATS--cut all to shit
FDGB--fall down, go boom
TBC--total body crunch
     The following are "dead" synonyms:
ART--assuming room temperature
CC--cancel Christmas
CTD--circling the drain
DRT--dead right there
NLPR--no long playing records


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 27 18:28:42 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:28:42 EST
Subject: spendy
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.132842.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's not in the dictionary; but people in Washington State, and Oregon, and
Idaho, and Montana, and maybe Minnesota know what "spendy" means = expensive.
Examples:

   Faribault County, Minnesota: "I voted for Arne Carlson because he is a
good businessman and reigned in our spendy legislature for two terms and
turned up a surplus."
   Boise, Idaho: "Kempthorne Plan May Be Too Spendy, Some Critics Say."
   Seattle: "Ferry Ramp Proves Spendy Folly."
   Portland, Oregon: "Parking Overtime in Portland Gets Spendy."

Is that the right limit of distribution? Anybody speak of "spendy" in the
south or east?

- Allan Metcalf


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Nov 27 18:51:54 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:51:54 -0500
Subject: spendy
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.135154.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_Spendy_ is an entry in _The Barnhart Dictionary Companion_ (Vol. 10.2,
Winter 1998).  In spite of its earliest date (1989), it has not made it
into many dictionaries, notably Encarta (1999).

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

THE FOLLOWING IS COPYRIGHT MATERIAL:

spendy, adj.  spendier, spendiest.  {W}  1. costly, expensive, pricey.
Standard (used in U.S. contexts dealing especially with economics;
frequent)

The ride lasts about an hour and when you touch down several miles from
lift-off point you are treated to an unbelievably elegant champagne
breakfast all cooked over the burners of the balloon.  It's a bit
spendy, about $200, but well worth the cost.  John Kieran, "The Africa
of dreams," The San Diego Union-Tribune (Nexis), April 3, 1986, p C-1

You've heard grumbling about that old aluminum pasta pot, consider a
piece of  Calphalon, a spendy but impressive brand of heavy
spun-aluminum cookware.  Kim Severson, "Yule-Tensils: Cooking up
practical gifts for your favorite chef," Anchorage Daily News (Nexis),
Dec. 11, 1996, p 1E

2.  generous with money; advocating a large budget. (frequency?)

"Budget cut" now apparently means a large budget increase, albeit one
somewhat smaller than has been advocated by the interests served by the
program to be "cut." "Five hundred billion dollar deficit reduction" is
an annual deficit increase each year for five years, at the end of
which time the national debt will be much larger than it is now, but
$500 billion less than has been called for by the spendiest advocates.
"Intellectual Integrity--Columnists overlooked recent examples of
doublespeak," The Seattle Times (Nexis), July 3, 1993, p A9

1985.  Composite (suffixation): formed from spend (OED: c1175) + -y
(OED: 1546) the diminutive suffix, as in trendy (BDNE1: 1970; OEDs:
1962).  Compare  pricey (OEDs: 1932).  Perhaps influenced by the use of
spend (OED: a1688) as a noun meaning "the action of spending money."
>The evidence which we have accumulated suggests that this term appears
especially in publications from the far-western portions of  the United
States and Canada.


From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Sun Nov 28 00:43:23 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 19:43:23 -0500
Subject: Pretty (was Hella good Thanksgiving!)
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.194323.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Pat wrote:
>Among Southeners of all ages and ethnic backgrounds, "pretty" is used for
>"very," but not for "very, very."   For "oikay," I've often heard, "so so"
>and "fair to middling."
>
I've always understood "pretty" to mean "sort of" or "leaning toward"
rather than "very." Someone "pretty ugly" (always love this one) is more
attractive than someone "really ugly." "Pretty good" is okay but not
excellent. It's how someone would rate a dish that was reasonably
palatable, but might not be ordered again.


From sh120888 at OHIO.EDU  Sun Nov 28 00:43:24 1999
From: sh120888 at OHIO.EDU (Stephanie Hysmith)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 19:43:24 -0500
Subject: Hospital slang
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.194324.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Add to this GOMER--Get out of my emergency room

At 04:30 AM 11/27/99 EST, you wrote:
>     See Jerry Dunn's IDIOM SAVANT (1997), "Medical Workers," pages 3-16.
>Almost none of IDIOM's terms are duplicates with Gareth's posting!
>     The following acronyms have been circluating on the web (see deja.com)
>since 8-9-99, supposedly from the book WHY FIRE ENGINES ARE RED:
>
>MUH--messed up heart
>PBS--pretty bad shape
>PCL--pre-code looking
>HIBGIA--had it before, got it again
>CCFCCP--coo coo for Cocoa Puffs
>CATS--cut all to shit
>FDGB--fall down, go boom
>TBC--total body crunch
>     The following are "dead" synonyms:
>ART--assuming room temperature
>CC--cancel Christmas
>CTD--circling the drain
>DRT--dead right there
>NLPR--no long playing records
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 28 01:06:40 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:06:40 EST
Subject: Christopher Morley's KITTY FOYLE (1939)
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.200640.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     There was someone from Philadelphia on my last vacation (Mexico).  I
overheard her say something like:  "As we say in Philadelphia, 'First prize
is one week in Philadelphia, second prize is TWO weeks in Philadelphia.'"
     She hadn't read my posting, either!
     Christopher Morley wrote TRAVELS IN PHILADELPHIA (1919?).  I didn't see
the phrase there.
     Morley's novel about Philadelphia, KITTY FOYLE (1939), doesn't have it
in the 260 pages I read today in the library, but the novel is otherwise very
interesting:

Pg. 9:  Rum, Rheumatism and Rebellion.
Pg. 12:  B. U. was what he called Before _Us_.  He was wonderful at making up
a language of his own.  (Related to P. U.?--ed.)
Pg. 38:  As for the outskirts of Chicago, when we got there at last, I always
think of Wyn's description of them: "civilization with its pants down."
Pg. 48:  Scenery in the Midwest is like rouge on a colored girl; it means
well but it's kind of pathetic.  (I've heard "lipstick on a frog" used--ed.)
Pg. 51:  In Philly, Wyn and his crowd hardly even knew there _was_ a subway.
They rode the snobway instead; the suburban trains.
Pg. 74:  I'd hate to guess how many peanut-butter-and-jelly sandwiches we had
there, and the usual drink was a Chocolate Glass-A, a sort of chocolate soda
poured into shaved ice.  _Glace_ was the real name, but I didn't learn that
until long afterward.  (Gotta check OED for pb&j and glace--ed.)
Pg. 75:  I learned that way that "fortnight" is a Philadelphia sort of word,
not to be used on the prairie.
Pg. 88:  Sheep dip!
Pg. 140:  "Well, Kitty, give me the three steps of decency."  That's the
three steps you're supposed to go along with a friend who's leaving.
Pg. 141:  ...Backing up to the hairbrush is what Molly calls it when we sit
down for a Milkman's Matinee--which is coffee and cigarettes at midnight and
hair down all over the place.
Pg. 146:  White Collar Girls.
Pg. 166:  In the Know.
Pg. 176:  Hop a cab.
Pg. 228:  When they went home (Philadelphia friends leaving NYC--ed.) they
said "I wouldn't live there if you gave me the place."

     At last!  The second part of my posting of "It's a nice place to
visit..."  A NYC citation in 1939!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 28 03:53:01 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:53:01 EST
Subject: Ayto's 20th CENTURY WORDS; Safire; Amazon.com
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.225301.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THANKSGIVING

     I felt pretty sad this Thanksgiving.  Maybe it was Ric Burns.  Maybe it
was William Safire.  Maybe it was Hillary Clinton.  Hillary (who treats
terrorists better than me!) declared, "Yes, I intend to run...I've got a lot
of things to do before the official announcement.  I haven't stopped
listening."
    We'll start off with a "Thanksgiving" book review.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TWENTIETH CENTURY WORDS:
THE STORY OF THE NEW WORDS IN ENGLISH OVER THE LAST HUNDRED YEARS
by John Ayto
626 pages hardcover, 18.99 pounds (list price)
Oxford University Press, 1999

    Jesse Sheidlower should strangle this guy!  No, murder is too good. Some
kind of torture, surely.
    John Ayto's name is not on the cover!  OXFORD is on the cover!  OED must
share in the blame!  Read the front flap:

The Oxford World Reading Programme
The Oxford Special Subject Advisors
The Oxford Bank of New Words
The British National Corpus
OWLS The Oxford Word & Language Service

     Now look at that subtitle again:  THE STORY OF THE NEW WORDS IN ENGLISH
OVER THE LAST HUNDRED YEARS.
     When you think about new words over the last hundred years, what do you
think of?  Think hard!  All together now!
     If you're like me, you think of the American Dialect Society, you think
of its publication AMERICAN SPEECH, and you think of a continuing feature in
that publication called "Among the New Words."
     Somewhere in the introduction, surely, Ayto's gonna mention "Among the
New Words."  He never mentions Among the New Words!  NEVER!  Not a nod!  Not
a wink!  Nothing!
      Jesse should be getting out some instrument of torture right now.  We
continue.
      On the back flap to Ayto's previous book on slang, he mentioned "lounge
lizard."  My antedate right here on ADS-L was never mentioned.  For this
book, the back flap mentions "supermodel," which he cites from 1977.  I dated
that term right here on ADS-L to Naomi Sims's VOGUE article in 1972.
       Maybe Jesse should force Ayto to watch the six-part episode of NEW
YORK.  That would be cruel enough.  We continue.
       "Jazz" is one of the most famous of 20th century words.  We'll get
right to it.

Pg. 89:  JAZZ n (1913)...(see _jazz (1909)_).
Pg. 28:  JAZZ n. (1909) a type of ragtime dance. ... 1909 C Stewart: One lady
asked me if I dance the jazz.

      What is "C. Stewart"?  A book?  A record?  Well, David Shulman
researched this citation and wrote about it fifteen years ago!  This is from
the RANDOM HOUSE HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG H-O, pg. 259:  "The
citation erroneously dated '1909' in OED2 was not in fact recorded until
1919; see D. Shulman, 'The Earliest Citation of _Jazz_,' _Comments on Ety._
XVI (Dec. 1, 1986), pp. 2-6."
      David Shulman personally received notice from the OED that the 1909
citation (from the Peter Tamony files) was made in error and would be removed.
      To get all this stuff wrong, Ayto would have to:  (1) not read the OED
files, (2) not read the RHHDAS, (3) not read Comments on Etymology, (4) not
read Gerald Cohen's STUDIES IN SLANG, (5) not read AMERICAN SPEECH,and (6)
not read ADS-L.
     William Safire will probably mention this book in his upcoming "Gifts of
Gab."  I'm sure he'll say that it's a wonderful stocking-stuffer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
WILLIAM SAFIRE

     Last week, William Safire used a 1959 citation for "Gentleman's C," and
said that whoever beat it would get a helluva "grade from me."  Over two
weeks ago, I posted here a citation that beats his by over half a century.
     I checked today (Sunday's NYT Magazine arrives on Saturday).  There was
no correction!
     What kind of a teacher issues a grade, then withholds it from the
student and his transcript forever?  I do this work for free--why not throw
me a crumb?  Hey, it's Thanksgiving!
      A CRUMB!!!!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
AMAZON.COM

     There was an opinion in the NY Daily News, Friday, 26 November 1999, pg.
59, cols. 2-3:  "City is learning to love its history" by Ric Burns (subhead:
"A newfound interest in a glorious past").
     I need a strong curse for this guy.  "May you marry Hillary Rodham
Clinton and move to Arkansas!"  There, now.  I haven't felt this good since I
cursed the New York Yankees franchise.
     I got on Amazon.com, wrote a review of Ric Burns's NEW YORK titled
"Serious Errors & Omissions," briefly mentioned that the book left out "the
Big Apple" and screwed up "Gotham," and waited the five days for my review to
appear.
    When it didn't appear, I wrote another review and also wrote to Amazon
about it.  Then, both reviews appeared together!
     There is a new feature on Amazon where you can vote (anonymously) if the
review has been helpful or harmful.
     As Thanksgiving began, 2 people liked the reviews and 59 people hated
them.  This was more votes than for the other three reviews of the book
COMBINED.  Not only was it bad, but, as far as I could tell, THIS WAS THE
WORST VOTE IN THE HISTORY OF THE NEW AMAZON.COM VOTING SYSTEM!
     Amazon.com finally took off the duplicate review, I wrote a really neat
personal page that people might actually read now, and the negative votes
seemed to have stopped.  One reviewer picked up on my "omissions" theme and
noted that NEW YORK gave scant mention of New York's universities, hospitals,
and sports.
      Still, it was Thanksgiving, and I did all this for New York City, and
not only did Ric Burns never respond, but people HATED me!
      I recently reviewed Jesse Sheidlower's word-a-day book, where I
mentioned that he left Random House for Oxford.  If there's a huge negative
vote for that review, maybe I'll jump off a building before Christmas.


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Sun Nov 28 06:02:05 1999
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:02:05 -0800
Subject: spendy
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.220205.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: <AAllan at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 1999 10:28 AM
Subject: spendy


> It's not in the dictionary; but people in Washington State, and Oregon,
and
> Idaho, and Montana, and maybe Minnesota know what "spendy" means =
expensive.
> Examples:
>
>    Faribault County, Minnesota: "I voted for Arne Carlson because he is a
> good businessman and reigned in our spendy legislature for two terms and
> turned up a surplus."
>    Boise, Idaho: "Kempthorne Plan May Be Too Spendy, Some Critics Say."
>    Seattle: "Ferry Ramp Proves Spendy Folly."
>    Portland, Oregon: "Parking Overtime in Portland Gets Spendy."
>
> Is that the right limit of distribution? Anybody speak of "spendy" in the
> south or east?

I don't know about Minnesota, never having been there, but "spendy" is a
perfectly good word out here, as in "I bought this coat, even though I know
it's a spendy item".  It seems to be a relatively recent innovation.  AT
least I've only heard "spendy" used this way recently.
Anne Gilbert


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sun Nov 28 05:17:49 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 00:17:49 -0500
Subject: intransitive "making"
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.001749.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've never heard "spendy", but twice this week I've heard the following from
members of the same family (they're from North Carolina and Georgia):

The coffee is making.

(i.e., the coffee is brewing)

Is this an intrafamily usage, or is this widespread/regional?

Lynne


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sun Nov 28 07:54:56 1999
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 23:54:56 -0800
Subject: intransitive "making"
In-Reply-To: <01JIUNL475OIB0ZHQB@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.27.NOV.1999.235456.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, this sounds like a special usage for some verbs like bake:

(1) The cookies are baking.

I don't remember what this is called, but I think it's an intransitive usage
of certain transitive verbs.

To me, at least, this sentence does *not* seem intransitive, it seems closer
to being a transformation of

(2) The cookies are being baked.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku at ix.netcom.com

------Original Message-----
-From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
-Behalf Of M. Lynne Murphy
-
-I've never heard "spendy", but twice this week I've heard the
-following from
-members of the same family (they're from North Carolina and Georgia):
-
-The coffee is making.
-
-(i.e., the coffee is brewing)
-
-Is this an intrafamily usage, or is this widespread/regional?
-
-Lynne


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Sun Nov 28 07:15:48 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 02:15:48 -0500
Subject: intransitive "making"
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.021548.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----------
>From: Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>

>FWIW, this sounds like a special usage for some verbs like bake:
>
>(1) The cookies are baking.
>
>I don't remember what this is called, but I think it's an intransitive usage
>of certain transitive verbs.
>
>To me, at least, this sentence does *not* seem intransitive, it seems closer
>to being a transformation of
>
>(2) The cookies are being baked.


That doesn't mean it's not intransitive.  There's no object, so it's
intransitive.  What is true is that the subject has the patient role that
the object would "usually" have. This happens with other verbs as well:

Bake the cookies.  The cookies baked.
Melt the ice.  The ice melted.

(Would we call them ergative uses of the verbs?  That word always troubles
me, since I'm more used to hearing about ergative languages, rather than
ergative verbs.  And since the subject is nominatively case-marked...)

"The coffee is making" is different from these in that it seems my friends
would not say "The coffee made" as in "The coffee made while we were
clearing the table."  My hypothesis is that this comes from "coffeemaker",
since (a) the words are in the same order and same relation there (patient +
(nominalized) verb) and (b) the lack of a sentient agent when the
coffeemaker is making the coffee.  My friends say "the coffee is making"
after they do the work to make the coffee and are waiting for the
coffeemaker to do its work.

Incidentally, this family also uses "shoot" to mean "give a shot to" in the
context of "It's time to shoot the (diabetic) cat."  They're the 2nd family
I've met who have a diabetic cat and use "shoot" this way.  So, maybe it's
[diabetic-cat]-owner jargon.

Lynne, who's been taking notes at dinner parties


From brian at ILCH.UMINHO.PT  Sun Nov 28 09:03:31 1999
From: brian at ILCH.UMINHO.PT (Brian F. Head)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 09:03:31 GMT
Subject: "Plus =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E7a?= change,
 ...The more things change,..."
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.090331.GMT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ron Butter?s query regarding "The more things change, ..." has led me to recall
that French, not English, was the first time I read such a statement. Now if I
can only recall, or track down, the king, writer, who(m)ever, I?ll sent the
name, date and occasion, when possible.  Brian


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov 28 13:03:20 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:03:20 -0500
Subject: spendy
In-Reply-To: <00dd01bf3966$19d37880$66709cd1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.080320.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Anne,

I'm sure your family knows where "out here" is, but the rest of us don't.

dInIs (up here in MI)

>----- Original Message -----
>From: <AAllan at AOL.COM>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Saturday, November 27, 1999 10:28 AM
>Subject: spendy
>
>
>> It's not in the dictionary; but people in Washington State, and Oregon,
>and
>> Idaho, and Montana, and maybe Minnesota know what "spendy" means =
>expensive.
>> Examples:
>>
>>    Faribault County, Minnesota: "I voted for Arne Carlson because he is a
>> good businessman and reigned in our spendy legislature for two terms and
>> turned up a surplus."
>>    Boise, Idaho: "Kempthorne Plan May Be Too Spendy, Some Critics Say."
>>    Seattle: "Ferry Ramp Proves Spendy Folly."
>>    Portland, Oregon: "Parking Overtime in Portland Gets Spendy."
>>
>> Is that the right limit of distribution? Anybody speak of "spendy" in the
>> south or east?
>
>I don't know about Minnesota, never having been there, but "spendy" is a
>perfectly good word out here, as in "I bought this coat, even though I know
>it's a spendy item".  It seems to be a relatively recent innovation.  AT
>least I've only heard "spendy" used this way recently.
>Anne Gilbert


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov 28 13:12:37 1999
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:12:37 -0500
Subject: intransitive "making"
In-Reply-To: <LPBBLADGECHFGAAAKHDNCEAGCKAA.gogaku@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.081237.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Benjamin,

You are looking for the word "ergative."

We baked the cookies in the oven.
The cookies baked in the oven.

As opposed to "real" transitives:

We ate the cookies in the kitchen.
*The cookies ate in the theater.

Note, however, that ergatives and transitives can both passivize, that
operation sometimes falsely suggested as a test for transitives.

So, if you reclassify (by analogy) "make" as an ergative (on the model of
"bake"), you've got it made.

dInIs





>FWIW, this sounds like a special usage for some verbs like bake:
>
>(1) The cookies are baking.
>
>I don't remember what this is called, but I think it's an intransitive usage
>of certain transitive verbs.
>
>To me, at least, this sentence does *not* seem intransitive, it seems closer
>to being a transformation of
>
>(2) The cookies are being baked.
>
>Benjamin Barrett
>gogaku at ix.netcom.com
>
>------Original Message-----
>-From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
>-Behalf Of M. Lynne Murphy
>-
>-I've never heard "spendy", but twice this week I've heard the
>-following from
>-members of the same family (they're from North Carolina and Georgia):
>-
>-The coffee is making.
>-
>-(i.e., the coffee is brewing)
>-
>-Is this an intrafamily usage, or is this widespread/regional?
>-
>-Lynne


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov 28 13:51:47 1999
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:51:47 -0500
Subject: Ayto's 20th CENTURY WORDS; Safire; Amazon.com
In-Reply-To: <0.ad10b43c.2572011d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.085147.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>       To get all this stuff wrong, Ayto would have to:  (1) not read the OED
> files, (2) not read the RHHDAS, (3) not read Comments on Etymology, (4) not
> read Gerald Cohen's STUDIES IN SLANG, (5) not read AMERICAN SPEECH,and (6)
> not read ADS-L.

I have been working intensively with Ayto's book for the last few weeks,
and it appears that for the most part he relied on the published volumes
of the OED and the OED Addition Series, rather than on the OED files.
There are many instances where I have sent the OED earlier evidence than
what Ayto cites as his dating.  He probably drew on the OED files only for
recent words not in OED or OEDAS.

I find Ayto's book to be pretty good, but its two major shortcomings are
(1) failure to provide cutting-edge information for datings, and (2) an
excessive British emphasis.  By "British emphasis" I mean not only a bias
toward Briticisms in coverage of vocabulary, but also a tone in the
commentaries that is meant to poke fun at pretentiousness and hypocrisy,
but that will strike Americans as arch.

Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov 28 14:50:57 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 10:50:57 -0400
Subject: Pretty (was Hella good Thanksgiving!)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19991127194204.006b07e4@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.105057.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:43 PM -0500 11/27/99, Stephanie Hysmith wrote:
>Pat wrote:
>>Among Southeners of all ages and ethnic backgrounds, "pretty" is used for
>>"very," but not for "very, very."   For "oikay," I've often heard, "so so"
>>and "fair to middling."
>>
>I've always understood "pretty" to mean "sort of" or "leaning toward"
>rather than "very." Someone "pretty ugly" (always love this one) is more
>attractive than someone "really ugly." "Pretty good" is okay but not
>excellent. It's how someone would rate a dish that was reasonably
>palatable, but might not be ordered again.

same for me; and for additional evidence:

That was pretty good--in fact it was VERY good
#That was very good--in fact is was PRETTY good

Was it pretty good?
Not only was it pretty good:  it was VERY good.

Was it very good?
#Not only was it very good:  it was PRETTY good.

Larry


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 28 16:02:10 1999
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:02:10 EST
Subject: You've got mail (North Carolina)
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.110210.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are some distinctive vowels in the AOL announcements. Typical of New
Bern, North Carolina? Here are two relevant news items. - Allan Metcalf


  America Online Inc. extended its relationship with Elwood Edwards, the man
whose voice tells AOL e-mail users "You've got mail," to include his
greetings on AOL 5.0. . . .
   In a press release Friday, America Online said it will use Edwards' voice
for new features including "You've Got Pictures," a service for members to
send pictures online. . . .
   Edwards' recorded AOL phrases also include "Welcome," "File's Done" and
"Goodbye."
-Emily Park; Dow Jones Newswires 11/26/1999

   A North Carolina native whose voice is a popular feature on America Online
is uttering his famous phrase in movie theaters nationwide. Elwood Edwards, a
New Bern native who says "You've got mail" on AOL and in the movie of the
same name, became the online service's mail greeter in 1989. His wife, Karen,
was a customer service representative for the Internet provider at the time an
d Edwards volunteered.
   -Greensboro News & Record 01/07/1999 (Northern Light summary)


From stephen.harper at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Sun Nov 28 16:12:13 1999
From: stephen.harper at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Stephen Harper)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 11:12:13 -0500
Subject: something's IN THE DETAILS
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.111213.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My wife came downstairs yesterday morning saying a fragment of a phrase was running through her mind which ended "in the details."  I think the expression is "The Devil is in the details," but I have not been able to find it documented anywhere.

Is anyone familiar with it?

Thanks,
Steve
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov 28 16:01:39 1999
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 12:01:39 -0400
Subject: intransitive "making"
In-Reply-To: <l03130302b466d991e07d@[35.9.48.140]>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.120139.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another take on this:  the distinction made in Relational Grammar since
David Perlmutter's Berkeley Linguistics Society article in 1978 is that
there are two classes of intransitive verbs, those like "smoke" or "eat"
that have an underlying subject (corresponding to the subject of the
corresponding transitive, if any) and those like "sink" or "melt" or
"arrive" that have an underlying object (corresponding to the object of the
corresponding transitive, if any).  The former class is called
"unergative", the latter "unaccusative".  In the case of an unaccusative
intransitive, the object becomes a subject (sort of like what happens with
passives, but here there's no agent to 'demote').  Notice that some of
these alternate with transitives, in which the object remains object (We
baked the cookies, The cookies baked), while other unaccusatives don't
alternate (My relatives arrived early).  Additional evidence for the
"unaccusative hypothesis" comes from a variety of languages; where there's
a correlation (although an imperfect one) with auxiliary choice and
ne-clitic formation in Italian, impersonal passives in German and Dutch,
subject case marking in Lakhota, and so on.  Within GB (and its
descendants), i.e. whatever theory Chomsky and his colleagues and students
have practiced, Burzio proposed an analogue of Perlmutter's unaccusative
hypothesis in his 1981 thesis, only he labeled the underlying-object class
"ergative verbs" rather than unaccusatives.  The problem here is that the
relevant argument of such verbs in ergative languages (e.g. "the cookies"
in "The cookies baked in the oven" and "He baked the cookies in the oven")
is the one NOT in the ergative case (which is assigned to the transitive
subject, i.e. the baker); rather it's in the so-called absolutive.  Burzio
also confusingly restricted the notion of "intransitive verb" to the
non-ergatives, so "arrive" for him is not intransitive.  So most linguists
who work on these things, even those (like Beth Levin and Jane Grimshaw)
who don't adopt the Relational Grammar framework, have adopted the
"unaccusative" label for verbs (and clauses) like the ones discussed in
this thread.  From Lynne's evidence, "make" can now (like "brew" and
"bake") be used as an unaccusative, i.e. in intransitive clauses with an
underlying object and no underlying subject.  (Notice that many
intransitives, like "cook" and "bake", can be either unergative OR
unaccusative:  "My uncle is cooking" can be one or the other depending on
whether he's serving as the preparer of the meal or as the preparation.
        One more point:  These unaccusative clauses are crucially
non-agentive on every level of analysis--the boat can sink without anyone
sinking it, and even cookies can bake on their own (in the sun); they
contrast with yet another construction involving a non-agent subject where
there is an agent present in conceptual structure but not in the grammar:

        The book is selling like hotcakes.
        The meat cuts like butter.
        The door opens with a skeleton key.
        Shakespeare translates easily.
        You bruise easily.
        the soup that eats like a meal

These have recently been called (probably misleadingly) "middles" and are
not distinguishable from unaccusatives, even when the same lexical verb is
involved, by a variety of tests, perhaps the simplest being that there is
always an understood agent in these.  (Compare "The door opens with a
skeleton key" [agent understood] vs. "The door opened" [no agent].)
Middles (unlike accusatives) are also much easier to get with adverbs.

larry

At 8:12 AM -0500 11/28/99, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>Benjamin,
>
>You are looking for the word "ergative."
>
>We baked the cookies in the oven.
>The cookies baked in the oven.
>
>As opposed to "real" transitives:
>
>We ate the cookies in the kitchen.
>*The cookies ate in the theater.
>
>Note, however, that ergatives and transitives can both passivize, that
>operation sometimes falsely suggested as a test for transitives.
>
>So, if you reclassify (by analogy) "make" as an ergative (on the model of
>"bake"), you've got it made.
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
>
>
>>FWIW, this sounds like a special usage for some verbs like bake:
>>
>>(1) The cookies are baking.
>>
>>I don't remember what this is called, but I think it's an intransitive usage
>>of certain transitive verbs.
>>
>>To me, at least, this sentence does *not* seem intransitive, it seems closer
>>to being a transformation of
>>
>>(2) The cookies are being baked.
>>
>>Benjamin Barrett
>>gogaku at ix.netcom.com
>>
>>------Original Message-----
>>-From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
>>-Behalf Of M. Lynne Murphy
>>-
>>-I've never heard "spendy", but twice this week I've heard the
>>-following from
>>-members of the same family (they're from North Carolina and Georgia):
>>-
>>-The coffee is making.
>>-
>>-(i.e., the coffee is brewing)
>>-
>>-Is this an intrafamily usage, or is this widespread/regional?
>>-
>>-Lynne
>
>
>Dennis R. Preston
>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
>preston at pilot.msu.edu
>Office: (517)353-0740
>Fax: (517)432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 28 20:06:59 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:06:59 EST
Subject: The Big Olive
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.150659.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     From the Associated Press, 24 November 1999:

_Giant martini planned for New Year's celebration in San Francisco_
     SAN FRANCISCO (AP)--With a seven-story giant martini glass in the works for a New Year's celebration, San Francisco may have a new nickname: The Big Olive.
     Marketers at the Westin St. Francis hotel say the martini glass, which will feature a 10-foot-long olive sliding down a giant swizzle stick at the stroke of midnight, may make a new city landmark.
     "Our intent is to promote the West Coast," said Marsha Monro, marketing director at the Westin St. Francis.  "If New York can be known as the Big Apple, why can't we be called the Big Olive?"
     The olive is set to drop into the giant, inflatable, blue martini glass at Union Square, amid a fireworks display.  Monro said construction of the martini will begin two weeks before New Year's.
     Legend has it, the drink was created just a few miles from the city, in Martinez, a town northeast of San Francisco.  Locals say a gold miner stepped into a Martinez bar 150 years ago and asked the bartender to shake up something special.  The result became known as the Martinez, and later the Martini.  Others say Martini and Rossi distillers invented the drink.

    Somebody has got to tell this pronto to Ric Burns!  How can he possibly leave this off of his next great documentary, SAN FRANCISCO?


From jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU  Sun Nov 28 20:20:49 1999
From: jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU (Jeutonne P. Brewer)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:20:49 -0500
Subject: intransitive "making"
In-Reply-To: <01JIUNL475OIB0ZHQB@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.152049.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This statement is familiar to me. It isn't just an intrafamily
expression. I live in North Carolina, but I grew up in Oklahoma
and Texas.

Jeutonne Brewer


On Sun, 28 Nov 1999, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:

> I've never heard "spendy", but twice this week I've heard the following from
> members of the same family (they're from North Carolina and Georgia):
>
> The coffee is making.
>
> (i.e., the coffee is brewing)
>
> Is this an intrafamily usage, or is this widespread/regional?
>
> Lynne
>


From jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU  Sun Nov 28 20:24:15 1999
From: jpbrewer at UNCG.EDU (Jeutonne P. Brewer)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:24:15 -0500
Subject: intransitive "making"
In-Reply-To: <01JIURQNK2S2B22PPJ@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.152415.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The bread is making [in the bread making machine]
also seems all right to me.

Jeutonne Brewer


From MILLERJ at FRANKLINCOLL.EDU  Sun Nov 28 20:46:49 1999
From: MILLERJ at FRANKLINCOLL.EDU (Miller, Jerry)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:46:49 -0500
Subject: something's IN THE DETAILS
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.154649.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Steve: I'm familiar with two different and opposing sayings (unfortunately,
I don't really know the origins of either). "The Devil is in the details"
I've heard quite often, but I've also heard (and used) "God hides in the
details," which is quite useful in the teaching of writing, obviously. Where
these originated I have no idea, but they are interesting in their
opposition (or can both God and the Devil hide out in the same place?). Like
you, I am curious as to their origins and how one presumably transformed
into the other (and in which order) at some point in time.

Jerry Miller


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stephen Harper [SMTP:stephen.harper at WORLDNET.ATT.NET]
> Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 11:12 AM
> To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject:      something's IN THE DETAILS
>
> My wife came downstairs yesterday morning saying a fragment of a phrase
> was running through her mind which ended "in the details."  I think the
> expression is "The Devil is in the details," but I have not been able to
> find it documented anywhere.
>
> Is anyone familiar with it?
>
> Thanks,
> Steve


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 28 21:23:20 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:23:20 EST
Subject: Bouldering & Buildering
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.162320.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     Everest is all over the place lately.  The IMAX Everest movie was shown on tv.  A George Mallory biography was excerpted in today's Sunday NY Post.
    I've been reading HIGH EXPOSURE by David Breashears (who filmed the IMAX movie).  He briefly explains two terms:  bouldering and buildering.
    The OED has "bouldering" from 1920.
    I'm having difficulty with "buildering."  I looked in the OED, OED Additions, Barnhart's, and 50 Years of Among the New Words.  Maybe I just missed it.

7 November 1977, NEWSWEEK, "Trade-Center Stunts," pg. 18, col. 1:  Moreover, their successful feats have given rise to an increasingly popular sport known as "buildering," in which city-dwelling adventurers pit their skills against man-made structures.

3 May 1978, WASHINGTON POST, "Scaling Concrete Heights: There's an 'Outlaw Appeal' to the Growing Sport of Buildering," pg. D1, col. 1:

     Buildering, or the art of climbing buildings is a little-known sport that has been given greater public notice by climbs like Joseph Healy's ascent of Chicago's Sears Tower on Monday and George Willig's conquering of the World Trade Center last May. (...)
     The name comes from bouldering, a form of practice-climbing done on small rocks that can be jumped or fallen off without serious bodily harm.  One of the first printed references to buildering is in a 1930s volume called "The Night Climbers of Cambridge," detailing how devil-amy-care undergraduate curfew-breakers took to climbing buildings to get back into the college after the administration had made fences too horid to attempt.


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Sun Nov 28 21:43:43 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:43:43 -0500
Subject: Pretty Good
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.164343.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

There's an element to "pretty" that strikes me as a way of indicating that something
is sufficient for the purpose at hand, though not necessarily ideal, perfect or
total. This, to me is separate from pretty as a middling superlative.

Pretty ugly, then, might be saying "ugly enough to notice."

Pretty fair might be "sufficiently fair as to not cause debate."

Pretty tired might be "tired enough to take into account."


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Sun Nov 28 22:13:03 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:13:03 -0500
Subject: Off-Topic: Buildering
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.171303.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

In October of 1994 I was working on Park Avenue a block south of Grand Central in
one of Manhattan's many mirrored glass buildings (the kind that look great in the
architectural sketches but are completely bland in the cityscape).

So I'm sitting there by the window on the twenty-first floor, 11 in the morning,
thinking about lunch and some network problem, and a hand appears on the window sill on
the other side of the glass. A tight, bony, sinewy, thin, chalky hand. Before I could
really do anything, a long-haired man in purplish shorts and a white tank top
climbed up past the window, not looking in, to the next floor. He wore fingerless gloves
and carried thin rope and various gear.

My coworkers, of course, didn't believe me at first, but there were chalky
handprints on the outside sill for proof, and cops roped of the street below to protect
gawking passers-by from the possibility of a falling Frenchman (as he later turned out to
be).

A caption from Lexis Nexis at the time "A police officer (top) waits as French
mountain climber Alain Robert scales the side of 101 Park Ave. in Manhattan yesterday.
Robert, 42, was arrested on the roof of the 48-story building and held on a variety of
charges."

Robert, known as Spiderman. has lately become more active in buildering, including
climbing the Sears Tower in August and being rescued on a building in Paris in
September after suffering heat exhaustion. These are on top of the other 30 structures he
has scaled, including the Eiffel Tower and the Petronis Towers in Malaysia, the world's
tallest structure.


From s-mufwene at UCHICAGO.EDU  Mon Nov 29 02:54:27 1999
From: s-mufwene at UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko S. Mufwene)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:54:27 -0600
Subject: Wah-Wah-Wes
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.991128151805.20410A-100000@hamlet.uncg.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.205427.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Just about 40 minutes ago, my daughter (11 years old) asked me why
"dam!" is treated as a cuss/curse word. After all, she said, beavers build
dams and nobody is offended by such a construction. I replied that the cuss
word is not really the same "dam" as in beavers building dams. First I
related it the interjection to "darned" and then corrected myself, relating
it to "damned" (< French "damner"). It occurred to me that for those who
say "dam!", there may be no trace of the etymological final consonant
cluster simplification that has taken place here.

    How is this all related to my subject heading? Tazie (my daughter) had
just bought a CD which she was impatient to play. The title of one of the
songs is "Wild, Wild West" but I swear all I heard was "wah-wah-wes"
[wa:wa:wes]. So Tazie said, "Daddy, the song would not be the same if one
tried to pronounce that sequence correctly."

    Just a hasty take on interesting linguistic observations from
[sa:say(d)] Chicago.

Sali.


*******************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
*******************************************************


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Mon Nov 29 05:18:14 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:18:14 -0500
Subject: Wah-Wah-Wes
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.001814.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Sunday, November 28, 1999, Salikoko S. Mufwene <s-mufwene at UCHICAGO.EDU> wrote:

>songs is "Wild, Wild West" but I swear all I heard was "wah-wah-wes"
>[wa:wa:wes]. So Tazie said, "Daddy, the song would not be the same if one
>tried to pronounce that sequence correctly."

My take on the pronunciation has glottal stops ending the Wild Wild, though maybe
not. It's hard to tell; that song's been strained through so much signal processing
there ain't much original left.

This particularly bit--"Wah-Wah-Wes"--was repopularized this summer via the flop
movie "Wild Wild West," and is a chorus sampled or borrowed from a song that was big in
the Eighties. I dunno who sang it, but some of the lyrics:

Guns
We don't like to use them
Unless
Our enemies choose them.
We prefer
To fight you all like a man
And beat you down
With our hands
In the Wild Wild West.

And your daughter's right in both cases.


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Mon Nov 29 04:31:03 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 23:31:03 -0500
Subject: Wah-Wah-Wes
Message-ID: <SUN.28.NOV.1999.233103.0500.>

Grant Barrett wrote:
This particularly bit--"Wah-Wah-Wes"--was repopularized this summer via the flop

> movie "Wild Wild West," and is a chorus sampled or borrowed from a song that was big in
> the Eighties. I dunno who sang it, but some of the lyrics:
>
> Guns
> We don't like to use them
> Unless
> Our enemies choose them.
> We prefer
> To fight you all like a man
> And beat you down
> With our hands
> In the Wild Wild West.

The band was Escape Club and thanks A LOT for getting that stupid song going over and over
in my head!

AIGH!  UGH!  ACK!
Lynne

--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 29 05:48:17 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:48:17 EST
Subject: Amazon.com; Hummos, Tequila, Rush hour
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.004817.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HUMMOS, TEQUILA (continued), RUSH HOUR

    A bunch of random stuff.

HUMMOS:  OED has this from 1955.  This is from STRANGE LANDS AND FRIENDLY
PEOPLE (1951) by William O. Douglas, pg. 198:  _Hummos bithiini_ (Chick peas
with sesame.  Chick peas mashed and mixed with _hummos_ which is diluted and
mixed with olive oil, lemons,  and parsley).

TEQUILA:  OED has a 1965 book cite for "tequila sunrise" and 1966 for
"tequila sour."  The HOUSE & GARDEN, September 1965, pg. 218, "Mexican
drinks," has "Mexican boilermaker" (beer and tequila) in column 3.  Continued
on page 230, col. 2 is Margarita, Tequila Sour, Tequila Sunrise, Tequila
Daisy, Taxco Fizz, (col. 3) Tequila Cocktail, Pina Borracha, Por Mi Amante,
Aztec Punch, (Pg. 231, col. 1) Mexicano Cocktail, Coctel Veracruzana, Pancho
Villa Cocktail, Rompope (or Ronpope), (col. 2) Kahlua, Black Russian, Picador
Cocktail, Kahlua Toreador, Mexican Grasshopper, Xochimilco.

RUSH HOUR:  OED has 1898 (England), then 1907 (US).  This (until I can do
better with the Brooklyn Bridge) is from LEES AND LEAVEN (1903) by Edward W.
Townsend, pg. 155:  The rush hour on the Brooklyn Bridge had not yet begun...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
AMAZON.COM (continued)

     I've been the least bit curious that 31 people on Amazon.com would vote
on my NEW YORK review--AND NOT ONE PERSON WOULD CONTACT ME ABOUT IT!
     And I'd constantly check.  Home page there!  E-mail address right there,
available for clicking!
     I went to the NYU Bobst Library today.  I went to Amazon.com, went to
Ric Burns's NEW YORK, went to my review, and clicked on my name.  It said
that I didn't have a member page set up.
     I went home, went to Amazon.com, went to Ric Burns's NEW YORK, went to
my review, and clicked on my name.  My home page is there!
     This is not a joke anymore.
     It's Amazon.com censorship.
     It's news.
-------------- next part --------------
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From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Mon Nov 29 15:40:21 1999
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:40:21 -0600
Subject: intransitive "making"
In-Reply-To: <01JIUNL475OIB0ZHQB@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.094021.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE has a few other examples at make v. C4.


At 12:17 AM 11/28/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>I've never heard "spendy", but twice this week I've heard the following from
>members of the same family (they're from North Carolina and Georgia):
>
>The coffee is making.
>
>(i.e., the coffee is brewing)
>
>Is this an intrafamily usage, or is this widespread/regional?
>
>Lynne
>


From pds at VISI.COM  Mon Nov 29 16:48:29 1999
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:48:29 -0600
Subject: Meme Identification
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.104829.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 11/23/1999 Grant Barrett wrote:
...
>It's the simple identification of a phrase that the author, writing in a
casual
>context, knows has joined the current Internet discussion memes. This is
often done
>simply via capitalization, but also by the adding of the suffix of TM or (tm)
...
>"Good Thing (tm)" is one. I believe it originates from Marth Stewart.
Another is
>"They Just Don't Get It (tm)." Below are two citations of many.

Our daughter took the Pooh books with her when she moved out, but I'm sure
A A Milne used "Good Thing" and other capitalized expressions of that ilk.
His intent, I believe, was to satirize grown-ups who use hackneyed
expressions with pompous gravity.  My take on the current practice is that
writers, by these marks, acknowledge the use of a hackneyed expression even
as they use it.  This used to be done with "scare quotes"; but we've all
had those drummed out us, haven't we.

Digression:  Lacking formal training, I'm used to looking up the terms of
the linguist's art I encounter on this list -- in particular, the panoply
of -eme words.  I thought "meme" was just another.  But I was wrong.  It is
a term of another discipline (if you will allow mimetics to be called
that).  Anyway, I found that "meme" was not in the hard copy of RHWUD,
although it is in the CD version, even though the dating is from 1976.   My
question to Grant (or anyone else) is:  What do we say about "Good Thing"
by calling it a meme, that we don't say by calling it hackneyed?  If this
is too far off-topic, feel free to reply to me directly.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From krahnke at LAMAR.ACNS.COLOSTATE.EDU  Mon Nov 29 17:26:50 1999
From: krahnke at LAMAR.ACNS.COLOSTATE.EDU (Karl Krahnke)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:26:50 -0700
Subject: Snickerdoodle - from the past
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.102650.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The following message appeared on our department mail system today.

Mountain West area ....

******

My kids are selling frozen ccokie dough as a fund raiser for their
school.
 It's $10 for 3 lbs, and comes in snickerdoodle, chocolate chip, oatmeal

raisin, and peanut butter.  It's Mary's Mountain Cookies, so it's
tasty.  ...


From conversa at IAC.NET  Mon Nov 29 18:43:30 1999
From: conversa at IAC.NET (Conversa)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:43:30 -0500
Subject: Professional Glossaries - 2nd request
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.96.991126091842.12450A-100000@socrates>
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.134330.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

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From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM  Mon Nov 29 19:15:59 1999
From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Enid Pearsons)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:15:59 -0500
Subject: Meme Identification
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.141559.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In answer to Tom Kysilko, who wrote:

>>Anyway, I found that "meme" was not in the hard copy of RHWUD,
although it is in the CD version, even though the dating is from 1976. <<

It's in the Addenda Section, in the front of the book, unless you have a
really early printing.


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov 29 23:52:00 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:52:00 -0500
Subject: pizzeria
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.185200.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dale Coye <Dfcoye at AOL.COM> asked

>>>
In Spike Lee's Do the Right Thing   Sal, the owner of a pizzeria, pronounces
it as if it were  pizz ur EE uh-  Does anyone know if this is common in NYC
or among Italian-Americans elsewhere?
<<<

Robert Kelly <kelly at BARD.EDU> replied:

>>>
I grew up in a little Sicily in Brooklyn, and never heard it otherwise
than [pitz at r'i@] by Italo-Americans, i.e. pitz-ur-EE-uh.  Of course
Italians said it with different vowels, but the same stress.  How else is
it said?  RK
<<<

I grew up in NYC, mid-fifties to mid-sixties. It was always
     pizza         'pi:ts@
     pizzeria      ,pi:ts@'ri:@
("@" = schwa)

I assume you're using "zz" (DC) and "tz" (RK) for [ts], since I've *never* heard
[z] (or [z:]) or [tz] in these words, unless possibly from a non-English-speaker
who'd never heard them pronounced by a native.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 30 00:02:56 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:02:56 -0500
Subject: "hybread"
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.190256.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:

>>>
At 6:57 PM -0500 11/21/99, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    [...]
>   The Atlanta Journal and Constitution (1997) and the Des Moines Register
>(1998) also show restaurants that serve "pitza," but "pitza" appears to
>come straight outta Brooklyn.

What's interesting is that this is a vacuous blend in the spoken language,
given the homophony of "pitza" and "pizza".  At least "hybread" is a real,
God-fearing blend phonologically as well as orthographically.
<<<

What's also odd about "hybread" is that I've heard "hybrid" pronounced that way,
/'haI.brEd/, by different (and diverse) people in a number of places over a long
span of years. My guess is that it's from a folk etymology, as if "high-bred",
trying to analyze an opaque expression by recruiting the past participle of
"breed" (as in "cross-breed").

-- Mark


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 30 00:11:29 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:11:29 -0500
Subject: honkin'
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.191129.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Grant Barrett <gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG> extracts the following from the
archive:

>>>
On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Jesse T Sheidlower wrote:

  Not entirely sure; it depends on how accurate the
  transcription is. "Hella-" is an intensive prefix like
  "mega-," that has been in use at least since the late
  '80s. I've never heard "hawkin'" before, but I have
  (rarely) encounted "honkin'" meaning roughly "exciting;
  jammin', etc." Perhaps these are different realizations
  of the same word.
<<<

My son, age 18, has been using "honkin'" for at least a couple of years as a
general intensifier, as in "a honkin' big [whatever]". I'll ask him to
explicate. We live in Framingham, west of Boston, which has been his home from
ca. age 2 until heading off to college this fall.

-- Mark


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Nov 30 01:26:41 1999
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:26:41 -0500
Subject: Kennedys'
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.202641.0500.GBARRETT@AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>

On Monday, November 29, 1999, Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
>We live in Framingham, west of Boston, which has been his home from
>ca. age 2 until heading off to college this fall.

Just this minute I am istening to an interview on NPR with a biographer of Ed
Kennedy. The host quoted somebody else (a satirist or comedian) as saying, "I've lived in
Framingham, Massachusetts, my entire life and I've never heard anyone who talks like
the Kennedys."

What of it, Mark?


From falklaw at ACD.NET  Tue Nov 30 01:23:48 1999
From: falklaw at ACD.NET (Allan Falk, Attorney at Law)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:23:48 -0500
Subject: 7th ed
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.202348.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have a Revised 4th edition I'd be happy to sell for something towards the
new edition.  I've had it since law school (Yale '72), but it's in
practically mint condition.

Allan Falk
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 1999 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: 7th ed


> On Sat, 13 Nov 1999, Bethany K. Dumas wrote:
>
> > $74.69. I am eager to read and see why Fred thinks it is light years
> > better than the 6th.
>
> I thought the deficiencies of the pre-Bryan Garner editions of Black's
> were obvious and well-known.  They basically lack information on variant
> spellings, parts of speech, inflected forms, etymologies, field labels,
> usage labels and notes, derivatives, synonym notes, and illustrative
> citations.  They are filled with what David Mellinkoff has called "scraps
> of what is said to be law -- Anglo-Saxon law, Hindu, Japanese, Jewish,
> Greek, Spanish, French, Roman, canon, ecclesiastical, civil, and something
> called 'Old European' law," "disembodied snatches of law French and
> Latin," "claptrap from the feudal system ... the armor, the weapons, the
> ancient customs.  Page after page of trivia," as well as general terms of
> well-known meaning, such as "garden," "horsepower," "martini," and "sex."
> On the other hand, the pre-Garner Black's omitted newer (i.e.,
> 20th-century) vocabulary such as "genocide" or "victimless crime."
>
> Most importantly, Black's definitions relied heavily on undiscriminating
> collection of judicial authority as opposed to clear, concise definitions
> based on available evidence of overall usage, and often failed to indicate
> the range of meanings of a term.
>
> My article, "Linguistic Applications of LEXIS and WESTLAW," 30 Jurimetrics
> Journal 147 (1990) has a fuller discussion of all this.
>
> > Also -- I am in the market for editions 1-4 if they are in reasonably
good
> > condition and reasonably priced (I went through law school on 5, then
> > bought 6 when it came out).
>
> The first edition is a rare book that you won't obtain so easily, but Law
> Book Exchange has reprinted it (I think they reprinted the second edition
> as well).
>
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
> Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
> Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
>
>


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Nov 30 02:06:16 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:06:16 -0800
Subject: "Jerusalem Syndrome"
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.180616.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>    Some sufferers arrive mentally disturbed and become convinced they are
> biblical figures:  Old Testament prophets, King David, Jesus, John the
> Baptist, or the Virgin Mary.  Others come to Jerusalem with visions of the
> end of the world.  Still others arrive with no evident disorder, yet then
> feel compelled to don white robes--sometimes the sheets from their hotel
> beds--and preach rambling sermons.

Yes, but consider the lilies...

(couldn't resist that one)

Andrea, who prefers to follow the gourd.


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Nov 30 02:22:59 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 18:22:59 -0800
Subject: intransitive "making"
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.182259.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"M. Lynne Murphy" wrote:
>
> Incidentally, this family also uses "shoot" to mean "give a shot to" in the
> context of "It's time to shoot the (diabetic) cat."  They're the 2nd family
> I've met who have a diabetic cat and use "shoot" this way.  So, maybe it's
> [diabetic-cat]-owner jargon.
>

My doctor, who may or may not own a diabetic cat, used "shoot" when referring to
giving me a shot.  In fact, I misunderstood her, and she had to clarify her
statement (before I would emerge from behind the chair :-)

Andrea


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Nov 30 03:16:54 1999
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:16:54 -0800
Subject: honkin'
In-Reply-To: <85256839.0000649D.00@notes-mta.dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.191654.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
>
> My son, age 18, has been using "honkin'" for at least a couple of years as a
> general intensifier, as in "a honkin' big [whatever]". I'll ask him to
> explicate. We live in Framingham, west of Boston, which has been his home from
> ca. age 2 until heading off to college this fall.
>
> -- Mark
>
"a honkin' big [whatever]"?

I've always heard it (for at least 20+ years now) as "a big honkin'
[whatever]" and also "herkin'". Both can be used without the
word "big" but they seem to require something; e.g., "that's one honkin'
X", "that's one herkin' Y". Of course the superlative would be "that's one
big honkin' X" (each word pronounced very distinctly with notable pauses
for emphasis between each word).
I'm honored that someone in Framingham talks like me, but I think the
other residents of Framingham should be somewhat concerned about it.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

Now that I think of it, it "honkin'" most always refers to size and
"herkin'" to weight, but maybe I'm getting a bit to subtle in my
speculations. I had assumed without any factual basis whatsoever
that "herkin'" may vaguely have had something to with Hercules.


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 30 03:31:32 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:31:32 -0500
Subject: intransitive "making"
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.223132.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just asked at another dinner about "the coffee is making" and a Houstonian
told me that he's used "make" this way for years.  He agreed with me that
he'd only use this for coffee in a coffee maker.  If it were in a
percolator, he'd say "it's percolating" or some such.

Lynne


From avine at ENG.SUN.COM  Tue Nov 30 04:53:46 1999
From: avine at ENG.SUN.COM (A. Vine)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:53:46 -0800
Subject: intransitive "making"
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.205346.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"M. Lynne Murphy" wrote:
>
> I just asked at another dinner about "the coffee is making" and a Houstonian
> told me that he's used "make" this way for years.  He agreed with me that
> he'd only use this for coffee in a coffee maker.  If it were in a
> percolator, he'd say "it's percolating" or some such.
>
> Lynne

I'm a native Houstonian (the few, the proud) and I've never heard that
expression.  What part of town is he from?

Andrea

P.S.  It sounds like something my older Jewish relatives from New Jersey and
Long Island would say...


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Nov 30 05:08:58 1999
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:08:58 -0800
Subject: Good Thing
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.210858.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

i would guess that all of this goes back to earlier public
school [british] talk.  certainly, it figures *very* prominently
in the hilarious 1931 book 1006 and All That by w.c. sellar and
r.j. yeatman.  hardly a page goes by without a Good Thing, a
Bad Thing, a Good Man, a Bad Man, or a Good/Bad King/Queen
"Edward VII was thus a very Good King, besides being a Good
Thing...").  i don't think sellar & yeatman invented it, but
they certainly made it Common Currency for at least a
generation.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 30 04:41:06 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:41:06 -0500
Subject: intransitive "making"
Message-ID: <MON.29.NOV.1999.234106.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----------
>From: "A. Vine" <avine at ENG.SUN.COM>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: intransitive "making"
>Date: Mon, Nov 29, 1999, 11:53 PM
>

>"M. Lynne Murphy" wrote:
>>
>> I just asked at another dinner about "the coffee is making" and a Houstonian
>> told me that he's used "make" this way for years.  He agreed with me that
>> he'd only use this for coffee in a coffee maker.  If it were in a
>> percolator, he'd say "it's percolating" or some such.
>>
>> Lynne
>
>I'm a native Houstonian (the few, the proud) and I've never heard that
>expression.  What part of town is he from?

Don't know what part of Houston he's from  (I don't know Houston)--he lives
in Waco now...

Lynne


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 30 08:28:08 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 03:28:08 EST
Subject: Bloody Mary; Medical slang; Reader's Digest
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.032808.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BLOODY MARY (continued)

     This continues the discussion on "Bloody Mary" that began with the "21"
Club's claim, in a book published this year.
     None of the bookstores had this book, so I special ordered THE BLOODY
MARY: A CONNOISSEUR'S GUIDE TO THE WORLD'S MOST COMPLEX COCKTAIL (1999) by
Christopher B. O'Hara, photographs by William A. Nash.  It's a slim book
that's filled with photographs.  There is no bibliography.  "The Bloody
History" is on pages 2-6.

     According to Dale DeGroff, considered one of the world's top cocktail
historians  (NYC's Rainbow Room-ed.), bartender Ferdinand "Pete" Petiot of
the Paris-based Harry's New York Bar first served the beverage around 1920.
The basic recipe consisted of vodka, tomato juice, Worcestershire sauce,
lemon, salt, and cayenne pepper.  He called it the Bloody Mary, referring to
the Protestant-burning Mary Tudor of the same name.
     According to the McIlhenny Company, makers of Tabasco Bloody Mary Mix,
another story has it that one of Petiot's customers, an anonymous American
(Entertainer Roy Barton?  I failed to find any info on him in the NYPL
Performing Arts branch--ed.), remarked that the fiery drink reminded him of
something called the "Bucket of Blood Club" back home in Chicago.  It also
made this Yank reminisce about a certain girl he remembered from that club;
her name was Mary.
     In any case, Harry's New York Bar was the birthplace of the Bloody.
Originally, the bar was called Clancy's--Clancy's on Manhattan's East Side,
in fact.

     "21" is never mentioned.  It's stated that the Astor family brought Pete
over to the St. Regis, but that they wanted the drink named the Red Snapper.
     M. Ferdinand Petiot was profiled in THE NEW YORKER, "The Talk of the
Town," _Barman_, 18 July 1964, pp. 19-20.  Petiot came to the St. Regis from
the Savoy in London.  On pg. 20, col. 1:

     "I initiated the Bloody Mary of today," he told us.  "George Jessel said
he created it, but it was really nothing but vodka and tomato juice when I
took it over.  I cover the bottom of the shaker with four large dashes of
salt, two dashes of black pepper, two dashes of cayenne pepper, and a layer
of Worcestershire sauce; I then add a dash of lemon juice and some cracked
ice, put in two ounces of vodka and two ounces of thick tomato juice, shake,
strain, and pour.  We serve a hundred to a hundred and fifty Bloody Marys a
day here in the King Cole Room and in the other restaurants and the banquet
rooms."

     The drink is called "Hot Vodka Red Snapper" in VOGUE, December 1960, pg.
168, col. 2.   HOUSE & GARDEN, January 1956, pg. 31:  BLOODY MARY: Many
people feel that the Bloody Mary is the answer to all next-day worries and
since its creation it has become one of the two most favorite lunch time
cocktails in New York.
     This is from HOUSE & GARDEN, "Cocktail lore and legend," April 1965, pg.
191, col. 1:

     The Bloody Mary, favorite morning-after restorative, is claimed by
George Jessel and at least two New York bartenders, while the screwdriver,
which tastes like orange juice but is considerably more potent, is believed
to have originated with American oil workers in Iran who drank vodka and
orange juice, stirring it with screwdrivers they carried attached to their
fatigue pants by loops.

     I was looking for an Iranian "screwdriver" when I found "hummos."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MEDICAL SLANG (continued)

     A check of Dow Jones for the last two years didn't turn up many medical
slang articles.  This is from the AUSTIN AMERICAN-STATESMAN, 20 August 1998,
pg. A18:

     LONDON--Sometimes, a patient is kind of an FLK, though it's the ones who
become a PIN that really get on nurse's nerves.
     Such coded comments scribbled into hospital charts about patients' looks
and personalities--"Funny Looking Kid" or "Pain In the Neck," for
example--won't be tolerated, Britain's nursing council says.
     The United Kingdom Central Council for Nursing, Midwifery and Health
Visiting plans to send letters to about 640,000 nurses threatening
disciplinary action if they use offensive jargon, the Press Association
reported Wednesday.
     Other examples found in patient records include BUNDY, for "But
Unfortunately Not Dead Yet," and GOK, for "God Only Knows."

     I traveled to Guatemala with a nurse.  There were frequent bathroom
stops for some people, but she said she had "nurse's bladder."  She said that
nurses can hold it for long shifts.  She didn't reveal any other slang.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
READER'S DIGEST

    I've been going through the READER'S DIGEST searching for Americanisms.
In particular, I'm looking for the ever-troublesome "make a federal case out
of it" and "the whole nine yards."  It's slow going and I didn't find those
yet, but I found other great stuff instead.

  June 1953, pg. 54, col. 1:  It was a world where the _click_ or _smash_ hit
was the ultimate goal (last year seven major companies recorded 2500 songs,
but only 81 were hits); a world where _cut-ins_ (giving a performer a share
of a song's profits), _hot stoves_ (open bribes) and other forms of _payola_
were standing operating procedure; a world of _romance_ (a verb meaning to
shower disk jockeys and musicians with attentions in return for
performances).
  August 1953, pg. 16, col. 1:  Coffin Corner is a strange new phenomenon of
very high speed at great altitude.  (See other entries in RHHDAS--ed.)
  August 1953, pg. 16, col. 2:  At 40,000 feet the first rule is BYOO--Bring
Your Own Oxygen--and this "brain basket" is piped to an ample supply.
  August 1953, pg. 98:  _Beware the "Bait-Ad" Gyp_  (AMERICAN SPEECH has
"bait advertising" in May 1958, pg. 157--ed.)
  August 1953, pg. 99, col. 1:  This was my introduction to the "bait 'em and
switch 'em" racket.  I discovered that you can hear fraudulent advertising of
this type daily on radio and TV, and read it in (col. 2--ed.) many newspapers
all across the country.  From the Association of Better Business Bureaus I
learned that "bait advertising" is the biggest gyp and the most widespread
abuse in advertising today.
  August 1953, pg. 155, col. 1--Yet all these men have made a business of
mingling daily with lions, leopards and--the most dangerous trio--buffalo,
elephants and rhino.  (These are the "Big Five," but that term is not used
here.  Taken from Robert C. Ruark's book, HORN OF THE HUNTER--ed.)
  September 1953, pg. 8, col. 1--Whenever I (Eddie Cantor--ed.) think of that
morning, I think of Father Peyton of Los Angeles.  He created the slogan,
"The family that prays together stays together."  It became the theme for the
fine radio program "Family Theater."  It would make a good theme for the
entire nation: "People who pray together stay together."
  September 1953, pg. 23, col. 2--Amos and Andy described the operation
neatly: "The big print (pg. 24, col. 1--ed.) gives it to you and the little
print takes it away."


From bkd at GRAPHNET.COM  Tue Nov 30 09:04:43 1999
From: bkd at GRAPHNET.COM (Bruce Dykes)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 04:04:43 -0500
Subject: Appalachia documentary on HBO...
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.040443.0500.BKD@GRAPHNET.COM>

There's a documentary running on HBO called 'American Hollow'. It spends a
year with a family in Mudlick Hollow in Eastern Kentucky. I don't know that
there's much of interest from a linguistic standpoint, then again, I don't
know that it's totally useless from linguistic standpoint, either.

Given that it's on HBO, it should be repeating often...

bkd


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Nov 30 11:47:30 1999
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:47:30 -0500
Subject: honkin'
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.064730.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Great honk!

This is used in Meredih Wilson's _The Music Man_ by Professor Harold
Hill's teenaged protege (I forget his name) in expressing frustration
with Mayor Shin--the father of his heart-throb.

Regards,
David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]


From epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM  Tue Nov 30 14:32:19 1999
From: epearsons at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Enid Pearsons)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:32:19 -0500
Subject: Good Thing
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.093219.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes!  I was planning to mention this book, but I couldn't find my copy.
Small typo--1066 and All That (in case someone is checking the used book
stores).

))))))))) Previous Notes Mail
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
To:     ADS-L @ LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
cc:     (bcc: Enid Pearsons/Trade/RandomHouse)
From:  Arnold Zwicky <zwicky @ CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
Date:  11/30/99 12:08 AM
Subject:  Good Thing




i would guess that all of this goes back to earlier public
school [british] talk.  certainly, it figures *very* prominently
in the hilarious 1931 book 1006 and All That by w.c. sellar and
r.j. yeatman.  hardly a page goes by without a Good Thing, a
Bad Thing, a Good Man, a Bad Man, or a Good/Bad King/Queen
"Edward VII was thus a very Good King, besides being a Good
Thing...").  i don't think sellar & yeatman invented it, but
they certainly made it Common Currency for at least a
generation.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Nov 30 16:39:20 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:39:20 -0800
Subject: honkin'
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.083920.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Honkin'" has been in use as a "general intensifier"
in Utah for as far back as I can remember (decades?).

Never heard "hawkin" in the context indicated: as
close as I can come is "hork" and "horkin'" used to
describe vomiting, and also noisily clearing the
throat and mouth and  expectorating a particularly
gross mass of phlegm.  By extension "horkin" is used
as an intensifier, particularly in "horkin' big" to
describe anything considered outsized; however, in my
experience, "honkin'" is used as a modifier or
intensifier much more often than "horkin'".

Never heard "hella-" used as a prefix, but the
adjective "hellacious", which I would propose as a
likely source for "hella-", has been around for
decades (if not centuries, although it's not in my
standard dictionary).  In my memory it seems Mark
Twain used "hellacious".

JIM

--- Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
> Grant Barrett <gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG>
> extracts the following from the
> archive:
>
> On Wed, 24 Jan 1996, Jesse T Sheidlower wrote:
>
>   Not entirely sure; it depends on how accurate the
>   transcription is. "Hella-" is an intensive prefix
> like
>   "mega-," that has been in use at least since the
> late
>   '80s. I've never heard "hawkin'" before, but I
> have
>   (rarely) encounted "honkin'" meaning roughly
> "exciting;
>   jammin', etc." Perhaps these are different
> realizations
>   of the same word.
> <<<
>
> My son, age 18, has been using "honkin'" for at
> least a couple of years as a
> general intensifier, as in "a honkin' big
> [whatever]". I'll ask him to
> explicate. We live in Framingham, west of Boston,
> which has been his home from
> ca. age 2 until heading off to college this fall.
>
> -- Mark
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Nov 30 16:57:55 1999
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:57:55 -0800
Subject: Whole nine yards
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.085755.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
....

> READER'S DIGEST
>
>     I've been going through the READER'S DIGEST
> searching for Americanisms.
> In particular, I'm looking for the ever-troublesome
> "make a federal case out
> of it" and "the whole nine yards."
....

Are you sure "the whole nine yards" is an Americanism?
I recall reading in the distant past that it referred
to the length of material needed to make a full, or
"great", kilt.  I've read other explantions that nine
yards is the length of cloth needed to make a fine
suit.

JIM
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com


From Allynherna at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 30 17:02:50 1999
From: Allynherna at AOL.COM (Allynherna at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:02:50 EST
Subject: City Names
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.120250.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This may have been discussed on our list or on the ANS list...but...has
anyone compiled a list of cities that have "clipped" names in local usage?
1.  Flagstaff=Flag
2.  Rapid City=Rapid
3.  Vancouver=Van
etc.


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 30 16:07:05 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:07:05 -0500
Subject: City Names
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.110705.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Clipping names is really common in Southern Africa, but they clip them and
add an -s.  So, Durban is Durbs, Gabarone (Botswana) is Gabs, and my old
university, Witwatersrand, is Wits.  I think this habit is borrowed from the
British.

Lynne

----------
>From: Allynherna at AOL.COM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: City Names
>Date: Tue, Nov 30, 1999, 12:02 PM
>

>This may have been discussed on our list or on the ANS list...but...has
>anyone compiled a list of cities that have "clipped" names in local usage?
>1.  Flagstaff=Flag
>2.  Rapid City=Rapid
>3.  Vancouver=Van
>etc.


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 30 17:04:34 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:04:34 -0500
Subject: honkin'
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.120434.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday I said:

>>>
My son, age 18, has been using "honkin'" for at least a couple of years as a
general intensifier, as in "a honkin' big [whatever]". I'll ask him to
explicate. We live in Framingham, west of Boston, which has been his home from
ca. age 2 until heading off to college this fall.
<<<

Here is his reply:

>>>
Yeah.. "Honkin'" is rarely used on its own, barring a situation in which
something is, in fact, honking (a car, a goose, or what have you.) Rather, it
amplifies another adjective, as in "That's one big honkin' weasel".

I've rarely heard or seen "honkin'" placed before the other adjective when the
noun is part of the phrase; most times, it's been people from the south, as in
"This is a honkin' nasty lasagna". However, "This alarm clock is honkin' ugly"
is more likely.

It's not a universal amplifier; either "big" or some descriptor of
unpleasantness seems most used with it.
<<<

-- Mark A. Mandel


From speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM  Tue Nov 30 17:20:54 1999
From: speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM (Amy Speed)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:20:54 -0700
Subject: City Names
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.102054.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Then there's always J-burg and the Cape.

-----Original Message-----
From: M. Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU>
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: City Names


>Clipping names is really common in Southern Africa, but they clip them and
>add an -s.  So, Durban is Durbs, Gabarone (Botswana) is Gabs, and my old
>university, Witwatersrand, is Wits.  I think this habit is borrowed from
the
>British.
>
>Lynne
>
>----------
>>From: Allynherna at AOL.COM
>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>Subject: City Names
>>Date: Tue, Nov 30, 1999, 12:02 PM
>>
>
>>This may have been discussed on our list or on the ANS list...but...has
>>anyone compiled a list of cities that have "clipped" names in local usage?
>>1.  Flagstaff=Flag
>>2.  Rapid City=Rapid
>>3.  Vancouver=Van
>>etc.


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 30 17:13:48 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:13:48 -0500
Subject: Kennedys
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.121348.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Grant Barrett <gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG> inquires as follows:

>>>
On Monday, November 29, 1999, Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
>We live in Framingham, west of Boston, which has been his home from
>ca. age 2 until heading off to college this fall.

Just this minute I am istening to an interview on NPR with a biographer of Ed
Kennedy. The host quoted somebody else (a satirist or comedian) as saying, "I've
lived in
Framingham, Massachusetts, my entire life and I've never heard anyone who talks
like
the Kennedys."

What of it, Mark?
<<<

I'm thinking about it. ... I don't think I've heard that accent and manner of
speaking (for which my touchstone is memories of JFK) in Framingham either. A
lot of Framinghamites, like us, are from elsewhere: it's a small town with a lot
of people, as my wife puts it, many of whom, like us, are in high-tech
industries or education.

(Framingham is a suburban town west of Boston. Economically and culturally,
though. it's part of an area called MetroWest, comprising a number of
communities between Boston and Worcester that participate in both cities'
regions but also constitute a significant center of activity on their own.)

But even the old townies among our friends do not talk that way. I heard
something more like it when we first came to New England in 1981 and lived in
Brighton for a short time. Brighton is technically part of Boston, and is quite
close to the main part of it.

Which means what? Only that anyone who thinks of "New England" or
"Massachusetts" or "Boston area" as a dialectally uniform bloc is seriously
wrong.

   Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist and Manager of Acoustic Data
         Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Dragon Systems, Inc.
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
                     (speaking for myself)


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 30 16:29:03 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (M. Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 11:29:03 -0500
Subject: City Names
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.112903.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----------
>From: Amy Speed <speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM>
>

>Then there's always J-burg and the Cape.

Well, the Cape isn't actually the city Cape Town--it's the Cape region.  In
the new provincial map, particularly the Western Cape province, which
includes Cape Town and the Cape of Good Hope (which is a bit down the
coast).

Now that I think about it, I think the South African tendency for clipping
may come from the British, but the adding of -s onto the things that they
clip might be an Afrikaans influence.  Can any British folk comment on the
-s?

Lynne


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 30 17:36:36 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:36:36 EST
Subject: Amazon & me (a continuing saga)
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.123636.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     It is expremely important to me, now that I'm reviewing a bunch of books
(I gave a sanitized review of Ayto's 20TH CENTURY WORDS to Amazon), to have
my professional credentials on my member page.
     As of yesterday, again, I couldn't get the member page checking
anonymously on the NYU Bobst library computer, but the member page appears
when I use my home computer--which they certainly know ("Hello Barry A.
Popik!").
    Again, so far, it's quite unusual that no one has contacted me about the
errors and omissions of NEW YORK, a top-fifty best seller on Amazon...

--Barry Popik, Bapopik at aol.com
(Check my Amazon member page for yourself!)
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From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov 30 18:03:41 1999
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:03:41 -0800
Subject: City Names
In-Reply-To: <01JIY3M89Y8IAZUEKC@baylor.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.100341.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tue, Nov 30, 1999 11:29 AM -0500 "M. Lynne Murphy"
<M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU> wrote:

> ----------
>> From: Amy Speed <speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM>
>>
>
>> Then there's always J-burg and the Cape.
>

I always thought it was "Jo-burg."


> Now that I think about it, I think the South African tendency for clipping
> may come from the British, but the adding of -s onto the things that they
> clip might be an Afrikaans influence.  Can any British folk comment on the
> -s?

I'm not British folk, but what about Hants (Hampshire), Lancs
(Lancashire)...(etc.?)?



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU  Tue Nov 30 17:12:17 1999
From: M_Lynne_Murphy at BAYLOR.EDU (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:12:17 -0500
Subject: City Names
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.121217.0500.>

"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:

> >> From: Amy Speed <speed at PARADIGMTECH.COM>
> >>
> >
> >> Then there's always J-burg and the Cape.
> >
>
> I always thought it was "Jo-burg."

Indeed, it is "Jo" -- more often spelt Jo'burg in my experience.  (Just checked
the DSAEHP--they agree.)    You also sometimes hear Jozi, which is the Zulu
nickname.

Lynne
--

M. Lynne Murphy, Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English, Baylor University
PO Box 97404, Waco, TX 76798 USA
Phone:  254-710-6983     Fax:  254-710-3894
http://www.baylor.edu/~M_Lynne_Murphy


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Tue Nov 30 18:56:03 1999
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:56:03 -0600
Subject: Snickerdoodle - from the past
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.125603.0600.>

Karl Krahnke wrote:

> The following message appeared on our department mail system today.
>
> Mountain West area ....
>
> ******
>
> My kids are selling frozen ccokie dough as a fund raiser for their
> school.
>  It's $10 for 3 lbs, and comes in snickerdoodle, chocolate chip, oatmeal
>
> raisin, and peanut butter.  It's Mary's Mountain Cookies, so it's
> tasty.  ...

In our big mall/maul the other day, at a cookie kiosk in the mall of the mall, one of the
cookies was snickerdoodle.  I asked and was told it is a sugar cookie with a cinnamon
confection of some sort on top.  Since I could have only one, the macadamia and white
chocolate kept me from tasting the snickerdoodle cookie.
DMLance


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 30 19:19:20 1999
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:19:20 -0500
Subject: honkin'
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.141920.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A datum falling right into my lap, from email written today by a co-worker who
is from the Upper Midwest:

     the big honkin' text behemoths

(referring to texts that are too large to edit in Micro$oft WordPad, or too
large to use for a certain purpose without being divided into smaller segments).

-- Mark


From dstein at MEDIAONE.NET  Tue Nov 30 21:54:56 1999
From: dstein at MEDIAONE.NET (David)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:54:56 -0500
Subject: Pronunciation of Viagra
In-Reply-To: <199906090939_MC2-78BA-287C@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.165456.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It would be kind of ironic... since Niagara Falls is losing its power and
flow rate...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of abatef
> Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 9:39 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Pronunciation of Viagra
>
>
> Yes, it rhymes with Niagara, as in Niagara Falls.  That is,
> so-called "long
> a" in first syllable.
>
> I expect the name was chosen with the Falls in mind, but I don't
> know this.
>
> Frank Abate
> OUP US Dictionaries
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 30 21:51:22 1999
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:51:22 EST
Subject: Barcelona Ice Tea; Cocktail.com
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.165122.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    There is a web site called cocktail.com.  It states: "The new cocktail.com goes into beta on Sept. 1, 1999 and launches on Jan. 1, 2000."  Perhaps it's just getting started.  Anyway, it's not very good for a site that should be the sine qua non.  Etymologies aren't here--maybe I should submit my resume and they'd hire me.
    Helena's "The best tapas bar in New York" is located  opposite the Public Theater on Astor Place Row; www.helenastapas.com, (212) 677-5151.
    "Barcelona Ice (sic) Tea" was interesting, but here's the list:

SANGRIA
PICASSO'S PUNCH--Rum, Grenadine, Lime juice, OJ
LOLA FLORES--Vodka, Strawberry, Lime juice, Sour mix
EL PRESIDENTE--Lime and Pineapple juice, Blue Curacoa and light rum
PURPLE PASSION--Vodka, Grape juice, Grapefruit juice and sugar
HELENITA--like a margarita with a splash of blood orange
COSTA BRAVA--Malibu, Pineapple juice, Cream and a splash of strawberry
COSMOPOLITANO--A twist on the traditional Cosmopolitan, made with Bacardi limon instead of vodka
BARCELONA ICE TEA--Our version of the Long Island Ice Tea, with a splash of Licor 43 ($8).


From Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU  Tue Nov 30 23:19:43 1999
From: Beth.M.Bradley at UWSP.EDU (Bradley, Beth M)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:19:43 -0600
Subject: City Names
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.171943.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Indianapolis is called "Indie"

-----Original Message-----
From: Allynherna at AOL.COM [mailto:Allynherna at AOL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 11:03 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: City Names


This may have been discussed on our list or on the ANS list...but...has
anyone compiled a list of cities that have "clipped" names in local usage?
1.  Flagstaff=Flag
2.  Rapid City=Rapid
3.  Vancouver=Van
etc.


From emckean at ENTERACT.COM  Tue Nov 30 23:24:12 1999
From: emckean at ENTERACT.COM (emckean at ENTERACT.COM)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:24:12 -0600
Subject: Marketing push behind "the Naughties"
Message-ID: <TUE.30.NOV.1999.172412.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From Wired News. Personally, I prefer "the zips" myself. I'm looking
forward to being an old codger (codgerette? codgerine?) and saying "Well,
back in zip-three we didn't have any of these newfangled jet packs . . ."

--Erin McKean
editor at verbatimmag.com or whatever other email addy is in the From: header

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:29:17 MST
From: Wired News <wired_news_daily_wired at wired.infobeat.com>
To: mac at gerharz.com
Subject: The Microsoft Mediation Begins

Wired News - a must-read for the latest information and commentary on
our rapidly changing digital world.

W I R E D   N E W S              Top Stories -  09:15AM 30.Nov.99.PST
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


 Here Come 'The Naughties' (Culture 3:00 a.m.)
 http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,32769,00.html?tw=wn19991130

 Forget the "Millies" and the "Double-0's." There's a grassroots
campaign to name the first decade of the new millennium -- something
smart and slightly subversive. By Steve Silberman.
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Copyright 1999 Wired Digital, Inc.