From prez234 at JUNO.COM  Wed Nov 15 13:53:51 2000
From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 07:53:51 CST
Subject: Chick)
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.075351.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:52:26 -0800 Bob Fitzke <fitzke at VOYAGER.NET>
writes:
>I suspect it's to differentiate causes. My son was bald at 44 but it was
because he >underwent chemotherapy for non-Hodgkins lymphoma. I doubt the
advertisers >purport to alleviate that kind of loss.
>
>Bob
>
So far as I know, that is right.  The term is actually "male pattern
baldness," referring to the genetic pattern that causes baldness (which
happens to be dominant in males and recessive in females), not to the
pattern observed on the scalp.  One would think that the hair tonic does
not  alter genetic codes and treats only certain types of  "nonpattern
baldness" instead.

One would think that a claim of male or female pattern obesity would
require identification of a genetic code.

Other subject:  From where does "on the bubble" originate?  I know the
term from the NCAA basketball tournament, but I used it saying that I was
"on the bubble" for a promotion.  A friend asked me what it meant, and I
myself wasn't sure.  The only thing I could think of would be some
insect, perhaps, on the bubble that is about to burst.
The other thing would be a bubble of water that acts as a magnifying
glass -- those "on the bubble" receive extra scrutiny.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov  1 03:23:16 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:23:16 -0500
Subject: Heavens to...
In-Reply-To: <645325.3181979284@dhcp-218-200-211.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.OCT.2000.222316.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> One of our secretaries just asked me if I knew where the expression
> "Heavens to Murgatroyd" came from.  I hadn't a clue.  I guess I'd heard it
> before, but certainly not often.  DARE has only the more familiar "Heavens
> to Betsy," with "etym. unknown."
>
> Have others heard the Murgatroyd version?  Anybody have a clue where the
> construction comes from, even if DARE doesn't?  It sounds as if it ought to
> be a euphemism, but I can't think for what, and the "Heavens to..."
> construction is grammatically opaque to me.

Brewer's Quotations has this to say:  "A cartoon lion called Snagglepuss,
which came out of the Hannah-Barbera studios in the 1960s, was given to
exclaiming 'Heavens to Murgatroyd!'  He made his first appearance in The
Yogi Bear Show, but his catchphrase was apparently not original, however.
An American correspondent noted (1993): 'It was a favorite expression of a
favorite uncle of mine in teh 1940s, and my wife also remembers it from
her growing-up years in the '40s."

Personally, I think Snagglepuss's greatest line was "Exit stage left."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  1 03:59:09 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:59:09 EST
Subject: Robert Gover novels
Message-ID: <TUE.31.OCT.2000.225909.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WRITER'S DIGEST (continued)

   The RHHDAS doesn't cite any of these WRITER'S DIGEST slang lists!  Also
add "Australian Slang," WRITER'S DIGEST, November 1942, pg. 62.
   I could retype all the lists on ADS-L if people wish.

--------------------------------------------------------
ROBERT GOVER NOVELS

   I didn't find "the whole nine yards" in his novels, but I found lots of
good stuff from the 1960s.  I'll try to look for that phrase when I check the
LOS ANGELES FREE WEEKLY in the NYPL later this week.

THE ONE HUNDRED DOLLAR MISUNDERSTANDING (1964)
by Robert Gover
Grove Press, NY

Pg. 9--triple whammy
Pg. 9--I was in _no mood_!
Pg. 10--...get their _ashes hauled_!  That's a way of saying they're going to
pay and then make love (or, I should say, fornicate) with some Negro.
Pg. 19--College Joe.
Pg. 20--She-it!
Pg. 21--...mothahfug...mothahfuggin...
Pg. 22--Well kiss my blackass!  (Pg. 94--I say, Jimmy you kiss my
blackass....)
Pg. 23--muddlehead
Pg. 38--I say Honeydripper, make room fer this Honeydripper!
Pg. 45--I reached my first (if you'll pardon the expression) climax too
hastily.
Pg. 47--You, after all, are the one who should carry the old football, so to
speak.
Pg. 61--I thought: JC my friend, pinch yourself.  You may be dreaming!
Pg. 62--Big Money Honey sleepin in my bed.
Pg. 73--I say, Baby you wanna turn me on?  He say, yeah yeah yeah...
Pg. 76--Nex, homerun!
Pg. 76--Wornout pecker ain no good for payin up!
Pg. 84--O-U-T out!
Pg. 88--I know them WHitefolks all so fuggin nutty they is like one big
fruitcake!
Pg. 89--He go like somebody stick a firecracker up his asshole.
Pg. 108--Crabass!
Pg. 113--I mean the whole thing seemed like a wild post-icecream dream...
Pg. 123--She got her a big mouff an she gotta talk.
Pg. 149--...about 60 (mph--ed.)--a graceful 60--then floored it, and--wham!
Pg. 167--This word, you say Copu You Late, an it mean fug.
Pg. 180--I mean she stood up, right in the face of my Roscoe! (Gun--ed.)

HERE GOES KITTEN (1964)
by Robert Gover
Grove Press, NY

Pg. 39--Shiverin shitfits!
Pg. 74--It's Eyetalian!

POORBOY AT THE PARTY (1966)
by Robert Gover
Trident Press, NY

Pg. 58--"I don't know a thing about stockbreaking."
Pg. 67--Holy Hannah, I said to myself.  (On further checking, the RHHDAS has
"holy Hannah" only from 1982--ed.)
Pg. 94--Yes-sir-ree-bob!
Pg. 134--...you pea-brain.
Pg. 147--...and another returnee from the gangbang.
Pg. 193--...richbitch head.
Pg. 222--...this crazy richbitch...
Pg. 224--..You richbitch...  (RHHDAS?--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov  1 04:15:22 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:15:22 -0500
Subject: Heavens to...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10010312219390.8363-100000@minerva.cis.yale. edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.OCT.2000.231522.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Heavens to Betsy" is apparently entirely mysterious in its origin. It is
discussed at the M-W Web site and at Quinion's site. There is a book by
this title by Charles Earle Funk (1955, now available in paperback), in
which Dr. Funk reports his failure to establish an 'etymology'.

"Heavens to Murgatroyd" seems to me to be a joke on the 'opacity' of the
exclamation with "Betsy" -- i.e., instead of a plain bland (woman's) first
name one might as well use a very uncommon and odd-sounding (man's [I
think]) first name -- neither makes any sense anyway.

I remember the cartoon lion saying this, I think, and he debuted in 1961 or
so. I have a feeling that it was copied, however, from some earlier comedy
... I have a vague and possibly spurious recollection of hearing this in
some old slapstick movie -- maybe the Marx Brothers or the Three Stooges.

-- Doug Wilson


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  1 06:58:10 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:58:10 CST
Subject: Heavens to...
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.005810.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Personally, I think Snagglepuss's greatest line was "Exit stage
left."

Or, as I remember when I watched the Hanna-Barbara cartoon show back when it
was first-run, 'exit straight up'.

A huge amount of theological American English (a la Homer) has happened
since the release of the movie, _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_.

Bugs Bunny is approximately analogous to Hermes.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  1 07:02:03 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 01:02:03 CST
Subject: Robert Gover novels
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.010203.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Pg. 9--triple whammy

This is Al Capp. Li'l Abner and all that.

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From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  1 07:13:32 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 01:13:32 CST
Subject: Robert Gover novels
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.011332.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE ONE HUNDRED DOLLAR MISUNDERSTANDING (1964)
by Robert Gover
Grove Press, NY

This might be the book I remember as the $50. Misunderstanding. I remember
my cousin Connie raving about it as 'funny'. But this was a paperback I
never read.

I was too young back then, or rather, too naive. In 64 I was a very
religously conservative 15 year old, wondering what the UC-Berkeley Freedom
Under Clark Kerr movement a mile or three north from Piedmont meant.

Oh Gawd yes. I remember TV pictures of Bettina Apthecker in her raincoat.
And I remember I knew Bill Fiset before I knew who Herb Caen was.


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From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed Nov  1 08:26:26 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 01:26:26 -0700
Subject: Unmarked/uninflected infinitives
In-Reply-To: <39F9F7780004C33A@deimos.email.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.012626.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The distinction of marked vs unmarked infinitives comes from the
historical basis that, as in modern German, the verb form following a
modal is inflected with the infinitive suffix (-en in German, -an in Old
English). The preposition "to" occurring before what was a dative-marked
infinitive came to be perceived as the inflectional equivalent of the
infinitive itself as the original suffix (actually double-suffix) was
dropped (perhaps much as "pas" in French has come to be perceived as the
negative element, with the original "ne" fading). So although it is
historically odd to call "to" the "inflection" for the infinitive, it is
functionally that, while the historically equally inflected infinitive
after modals, now the "zero" form in Chomskyan TG terms, is now the
uninflected infinitive form. All zeros are not equal.
        --Rudy


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov  1 12:40:34 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 07:40:34 -0500
Subject: Heavens to...
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001031224436.030b40f0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.074034.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> "Heavens to Betsy" is apparently entirely mysterious in its origin. It is
> discussed at the M-W Web site and at Quinion's site. There is a book by
> this title by Charles Earle Funk (1955, now available in paperback), in
> which Dr. Funk reports his failure to establish an 'etymology'.

The OED's first use for "heavens to Betsy/Betsey" is dated 1892.  Making
of America yields the following earlier example:

1878 _Harper's New Monthly Mag._ Sept. 582  "Heavens-to-Betsy!  You don't
think I ever see a copper o' her cash, do ye?


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU  Wed Nov  1 14:22:04 2000
From: HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:22:04 -0500
Subject: Pet peeve
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.092204.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry,

The to-infinitive developed from a semantic contrast in Old
English between two different sets of verbs, a contrast that still
persists in ModE in the difference between "will" as a modal and
"will" as a desiderative verb, a doublet in which the former
descends directly from OE "willan" and the latter from ME
"willen", which itself is from OE "willan", -an marking the
infinitive in OE.  The verbs that were to become ModE modals did
not use "to:".  Verbs of causation, intention, motion, perception,
etc. were variable, sometimes taking "to:" and sometimes not.
Verbs of purpose regularly took infinitives with "to:", and "to:"
also was used if the infinitive was a complement to a noun or
adjective or functioned as a nominal itself.  In late OE, "to:"
generalized to more infinitives.  The suffix continued well into
ME, although the /n/ was increasingly dropped.  It's still present
in Chaucer, as in the line "Thanne longen folk to goon on
pilgrimages."  While to-infinitives are more widely distributed in
ModE, there is still a complementarity between modals, perception
verbs, and a few semi-modals taking the infinitive without "to"
and most other uses requiring the "to".  I don't see any reason
why the analysis would have changed significantly from OE times.
Details of verb classes have shifted, but surprisingly little.  As
for the use of the term "base form", that's a consequence of the
decision, or lack of decision, to define the infinitive as marked
only by "to".  It's morphologically useful in that it draws
together a variety of uses of the uninflected verb, but it's not
of much use in a grammatical description.  I agree, BTW, that
"marked/unmarked infinitive" is not standard usage, but then
"split infinitive" is, so that measure doesn't buy us much.
Obviously, I'm pretty much restating Jespersen's case in MEG, Vol.
5.

Herb

>>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 10/31/00 02:56AM >>>
At 3:39 PM -0500 10/31/00, Herb Stahlke wrote:
>I haven't run into, or at least noticed, this aberration.
>However, as others will undoubtedly note, split infinitives are
>perfectly acceptable, another 18th c. prescriptivism surviving
too
>long.  In "would change", by the way, "change" is an
infinitive.
>Modals take unmarked infinitives.  The "to" is not what makes a
>form an infinitive.  It's just one way of marking that status.
>
>Herb Stahlke
>
Well, that's really a question of definition.  On some
definitions,
I'm pretty sure the majority of them in both theoretical and
descriptive analyses, only the "to ____" forms are in fact
infinitives, the others--while non-finite--aren't.  (-ing forms,
as
in present participles, are also non-finite but obviously not
infinitives, and likewise for imperatives and subjunctives.)  As
for
the form that follows the modal, I've heard/seen that referred to
as
the base form.  I don't believe "marked/unmarked infinitive" is
standard usage, although I would have no trouble if a particular
treatise explicitly defined them that way.

larry


From HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU  Wed Nov  1 14:51:12 2000
From: HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:51:12 -0500
Subject: Pet peeve
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.095112.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't teach my first year students that modals don't govern the
infinitive, rather that they don't govern the marked infinitive.
My decision may be influenced by the fact that most of our
students are interested in TESOL, where one of the more common
Interlanguage errors is using marked infinitives after modals.
Interestingly, this error does not spread to the subjunctives.
External evidence, of course, but useful when training ESOL
teachers.

Herb

>>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 10/31/00 03:39AM >>>
At 4:19 PM -0500 10/31/00, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
>The Merriam-Webster English usage dictionary says (in an
extended discussion):
>
>"... _to_ is only an appurtenance of the infinitive, which is
the
>uninflected form of the verb. In many constructions the
infinitive is used
>alone ...
>
So according to this practice, the subjunctives in "I demand that
he
leave" or "If it be treason" are really infinitives?  And when
first-year syntax students learn than modals don't govern the
infinitive (*He could to leave") they're being misinformed?
It's
certainly not standard practice in linguistics courses and texts
to
take the uninflected but to-less form of a verb following a modal
or
in the "that" complement of a verb like "demand" or "require" to
constitute an infinitive.  (Another case is "She made me (*to)
do
it".)  Base form/bare verb form (maybe even "infinitive stem")
si,
infinitive no.  Of course, this may just be a dialect split...

larry


From janivars at BAHNHOF.SE  Wed Nov  1 15:18:23 2000
From: janivars at BAHNHOF.SE (Jan Ivarsson)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:18:23 +0100
Subject: Heavens to...
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.161823.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Could Betsy possibly be Betsy Ross in Minna Irving's "Betsy's Battle Flag"?

"The simple stone of Betsy Ross
Is covered now with mold and moss,
But still her deathless banner flies,
And keeps the color of the skies.
A nation thrills, a nation bleeds,
A nation follows where it leads,
And every man is proud to yield
His life upon a crimson field
     For Betsy's battle flag!"

I found the poem in Burton Stevenson's Book of quotations, but unfortunately without date or title of Irving's book, if any. (Irving, Minna, Mrs. Harry Michiner, 1857 - 1940, American verse-writer)

Jan Ivarsson, Sweden

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: den 1 november 2000 13:40
Subject: Re: Heavens to...


> On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
> > "Heavens to Betsy" is apparently entirely mysterious in its origin. It is
> > discussed at the M-W Web site and at Quinion's site. There is a book by
> > this title by Charles Earle Funk (1955, now available in paperback), in
> > which Dr. Funk reports his failure to establish an 'etymology'.
>
> The OED's first use for "heavens to Betsy/Betsey" is dated 1892.  Making
> of America yields the following earlier example:
>
> 1878 _Harper's New Monthly Mag._ Sept. 582  "Heavens-to-Betsy!  You don't
> think I ever see a copper o' her cash, do ye?
>
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Nov  1 17:01:26 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:01:26 -0500
Subject: OED Newsletter, Oct. 2000, now available
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.120126.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FYI:



I am writing to let you know that the latest issue of OED News is now
available at   http://www.oed.com/public/news/0009.htm in both text and pdf
format. The issue includes articles looking at the process of revising an
OED entry - from a technical, and from a more personal point of view.

OED News is now published quarterly, and we will let you know by e-mail as
soon as each issue is published, to keep you informed about the latest news
and developments on the OED.  OED News contains articles by editors,
researchers, and contributors on their work for the OED, regular updates on
the overall progress of the revision programme, and reports on other items
that the editors come across in the course of their research. Each issue
also contains an Appeals List, consisting of words and phrases for which
entries are currently being drafted or revised, and for which further
evidence is needed.

I hope that you enjoy reading OED News, and that you will be able to help
the OED revision project by submitting material in response to our Appeals
List.
John Simpson
Chief Editor, Oxford English Dictionary


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  1 17:11:34 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:11:34 EST
Subject: Affirmative Access
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.121134.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ONE HUNDRED DOLLAR MISUNDERSTANDING (1961)

   Sorry, I should have said 1961.  (The sequel was written in 1964.)  The
novel is written half in the voice of a white man, half in the voice of a
black prostitute.  "Fug" is used a lot.  Why didn't Lighter treat this word?

--------------------------------------------------------
AFFIRMATIVE ACCESS

   From the VILLAGE VOICE, 7 November 2000, pg. 47, col. 2:

   ...Bush, who has already coined the phrase "affirmative access" to replace
programs that benefit minorities.

--------------------------------------------------------
CHARTICLE, ADULTESCENT

   From NEW YORK PRESS, November 1-7, 2000, pg. 1, col. 2:

   ...the editorial mostly comes in bite-size bits and "charticles," mostly
on lifestyle trivai concerning, as _Maxim_'s cover declares, sex, sports,
beer, gadgets, clothes and fitness.  (...)  The implication is that _Maxim_
taps the 15-year-old in all men--a readership _Advertising Age_ gave the ugly
sobriquet "adultescents."


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Nov  1 17:18:33 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:18:33 -0500
Subject: Affirmative Access
In-Reply-To: <a4.b6253a2.2731a8c6@aol.com>; from Bapopik@AOL.COM on Wed,
 Nov 01, 2000 at 12:11:34PM -0500
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.121833.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>    Sorry, I should have said 1961.  (The sequel was written in 1964.)  The
> novel is written half in the voice of a white man, half in the voice of a
> black prostitute.  "Fug" is used a lot.  Why didn't Lighter treat this word?

First, you do know that Lighter read Gover heavily and cites from
_One Hundred Dollar Misunderstanding_ constantly.

"Fug" is mentioned in the note for _fuck_ v.: "the recent forms
_fug, fugg_ are printed euphem. and do not represent pronun."
There's an example of "mothafuggah" from one of Gover's later works
cited at _motherfucker._ The forms that we broke out for separate
treatment are, for the most part, not just printed euphemisms but
different formations.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov  1 18:26:54 2000
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:26:54 -0500
Subject: fug
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.132654.0500.>

The form was popularized by Norman Mailer in his war novel, The Naked
and the Dead (1948).  The famous anecdote is Tallulah Bankhead
supposedly greeted him "So you're the young man who can't spell fuck!"

-- db
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov  1 05:34:38 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:34:38 +0800
Subject: Affirmative Access
In-Reply-To: <20001101121833.A25848@panix.com>
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.133438.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:18 PM -0500 11/1/00, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>  >    Sorry, I should have said 1961.  (The sequel was written in 1964.)  The
>>  novel is written half in the voice of a white man, half in the voice of a
>>  black prostitute.  "Fug" is used a lot.  Why didn't Lighter treat this word?
>
>First, you do know that Lighter read Gover heavily and cites from
>_One Hundred Dollar Misunderstanding_ constantly.
>
>"Fug" is mentioned in the note for _fuck_ v.: "the recent forms
>_fug, fugg_ are printed euphem. and do not represent pronun."
>
Well, yes, but I've never heard "The (Village) Fugs" (the celebrated
musical group; I believe they recorded under both names) referred to
as anything other than "The [f at gz]".  Of course, that is a proper
name.

larry


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Wed Nov  1 20:38:06 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:38:06 -0500
Subject: Heavens to...
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.153806.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> writes:

>>>>>
Brewer's Quotations has this to say:  "A cartoon lion called Snagglepuss,
which came out of the Hannah-Barbera studios in the 1960s, was given to
exclaiming 'Heavens to Murgatroyd!'  He made his first appearance in The
Yogi Bear Show, but his catchphrase was apparently not original, however.
An American correspondent noted (1993): 'It was a favorite expression of a
favorite uncle of mine in teh 1940s, and my wife also remembers it from
her growing-up years in the '40s."

Personally, I think Snagglepuss's greatest line was "Exit stage left."
<<<<<

Ah, but no text can convey the intonation and the timing, except to one
who's heard them.

     Exit.... sta-a-ge LEFT!

(Didn't he then go off to the viewer's left, which is stage right?)

-- Mark
Exiting through the only door in sight


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Wed Nov  1 21:01:56 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:01:56 +0100
Subject: www.americandialect.org
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.220156.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

The ADS web site is experiencing a temporary glitch. Some visitors will get an error
when trying to load it. Everything should be fine by 6 a.m. Pacific time tomorrow,
but in the meantime, if you can't load the site (and you should check first), use one
of the following:

http://128.192.25.102/ads/

http://us.english.uga.edu/ads/

Sorry for the problem.

--
Grant Barrett
ADS Web Geek
gbarrett at monickels.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  1 22:31:19 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:31:19 EST
Subject: Microburst
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.173119.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   More "Danish pastry" stuff later...The FT IT section of today's newspaper
defines some artificial intelligence terms.
   The online OED is missing a lot of "micro-," such as "microbrew."
"Microburst" was in today's NEWSDAY (story about Singapore AIrlines crash), 1
November 2000, pg. 2, col. 2:

   Or the plane might have been brought down by wind shear, a downdraft
associated with severe weather that can literally push a plane onto the
ground during a takeoff or landing.  The phenomenon, which causes a
"microburst" of cold air to descend on the runway, gives the flight crew
little time to recover.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Nov  1 23:34:11 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:34:11 -0500
Subject: Microburst
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.183411.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From _The Barnhart New-Words Concordance_:

microbrew         ANWI and DC Vol. 7.3
microbrewer      ANWI and DC Vol. 7.3
microbrewered                   DC Vol. 7.3
microbrewery    ANWI and DC Vol. 7.3
microbrewing     AMWI and DC Vol. 7.3

microburst                           DC Vol. 3.1 and BDNE3 and Macq.


ANWI = Fifty Years Among the New Words
DC = The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
BDNE3 = The Third Barnhart Dictionary of New English
Macq. = The Macquarie Dictionary of New Words

Regards,
David Barnhart


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  2 01:28:39 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:28:39 EST
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.202839.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   This continues the discussion in the archives of the "O. K." sign.  I
found more stuff about the Ballantine's beer "handy" sign.

10 August 1939, BUCKEYE TAVERN, pg. 7, col. 1:
   You may have noted that readers are forever being advised to "Order
Ballantine's Ale & Beer The 'Handy' Way."  The handy way refers to what we
used to call the "winged O" back in high school days.  It is (Pg. 8, col.
3--ed.) made by arching the thumb and index finger of the right hand into a
closed circle, and holding the remaining three fingers aloft as when lifting
an imported enameled tea cup of the Ming Dynasty.  If, in addition to this
signal, you can wiggle your ears, the stunt looks even better.
   Now then, readers are advised to saunter up to their favorite grog stand,
look the barkeep right in the eye, and then flash this "handy" signal at him.
 Make believe it's sign language, in other words.  This is to be done, of
course, with other standees giving you the stony stare and sizing you up as a
dimwit.

14 September 1939, BUCKEYE TAVERN, pg. 4, col. 4:
   Also, if you ever pull that Three Fingered sign of Ballantine's beer in
front of a nice Latin gal, you'll get a slap in the face.


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Thu Nov  2 01:32:11 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:32:11 -0500
Subject: moodwatcher & other crutches.  Was:someone/somebody, etc.
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.203211.0500.>

Thanks, Lynne, for both explanations.

I guess I was too impatient with the style checker (I forget the
trademark) that came with my WordPerfect circa 1985. As for Roget et
al., I'm sure different people have different uses for them or they
wouldn't have become perennial best-sellers.

Generally speaking, I think academics have more time and patience with
these literary tools than working lexicographers like me.

Thanks again.

TOM.

Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
> I don't set out to use the moodwatcher, as in putting the message
> through the grammar checker on a word processor; I just leave
> moodwatcher on, so that as I type things, chili peppers show up if
> the "offensiveness" triggers are triggered.  I do this because I find
> it terribly amusing to see how stupid the machine is.  Recently, I
> was writing to a friend about the Ben Lee song "Cigarettes will Kill
> You" and discovered that the words "kill you" together, even with
> quote marks around them and an inanimate subject, merits the highest
> number of chili peppers (three).  It's quite fun.
>
> For more info on Eudora's moodwatcher and how silly it is, see:
> http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/10/24/moodwatch/index.html
>
> But, as for word processing grammar checkers, I do use them
> sometimes, but I  customize them to look only for the things I care
> about--i.e., the things I know I need to be careful about in my own
> writing, like long series of phrases of the prepositional nature in
> sentences that I write in  papers that I write for publishers of
> academic publications.  And then there's my overuse of dummy
> subjects.  It is therefore necessary for me to look for "there" and
> "it is" in the editing stage, which is easy to do with a grammar
> checker (or even a find-and-replace mechanism).  Once I work out
> those kinds of problems on the computer, I print the document out and
> give it a real editing.
>
> Allison Smith's 1993 Illinois dissertation, _Revising process and
> written product: a study of basic and skilled L1 English and ESL
> Writers using computers_, shows that grammar checkers are useful to
> skilled writers, and harmful to basic writers.  I was one of her
> skilled L1 subjects--I hadn't used a grammar checker before, but
> learning to use it for the study taught me how to use it to my
> advantage.
>
> There's lots of poor thesaurus use out there--especially by unskilled
> writers trying to sound "academic".  I use mine constantly, but this
> is in part because I write about synonymy, and always need new
> examples.  I also use it for semantics exercises for my students
> (give them a few pages of Roget's and have them determine the
> semantic principles underlying its use of entries, paragraph breaks,
> semicolons, and commas).  The thing I find the thesaurus most useful
> for in writing is solving tip-of-the-tongue (or fingers) problems.
> As in "I know there's a better word for this, and I think it starts
> with a D--what is it?"  The problem for basic writers is that they
> use the thesaurus to teach them words ("I don't want to use this word
> again, better find another for the same thing") and don't understand
> the differences among the words.
>
> With three chili peppers,
> Lynne
> --
> M. Lynne Murphy
> Lecturer in Linguistics
> School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
> University of Sussex
> Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
> phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
> fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Nov  2 01:29:06 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:29:06 -0600
Subject: Heavens to Betsy
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.192906.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Here is some speculation on "Heavens to Betsy":

(1) It's necessary to bear "Goodness gracious me" in mind when trying to
figure out the origin of "Heavens to Betsy."  "Goodness gracious me" is
probably elliptical for "May Goodness be gracious to me," where "Goodness"
is used in place of "God."

(2)   Similarly, "Heavens to Betsy" may be seen as elliptical for "May the
heavens be gracious to Betsy."

(3) I was therefore wondering who the original "Betsy" could have been who
is referred to in "Heaven to Betsy."  Along came Jan Ivarsson's Nov. 1,
2000 helpful message mentioning Betsy Ross.  Is there supportive evidence
anywhere for his suggestion? Are there any other possible candidates?

------Gerald Cohen

>Could Betsy possibly be Betsy Ross in Minna Irving's "Betsy's Battle Flag"?
>
>"The simple stone of Betsy Ross
>Is covered now with mold and moss,
>But still her deathless banner flies,
>And keeps the color of the skies.
>A nation thrills, a nation bleeds,
>A nation follows where it leads,
>And every man is proud to yield
>His life upon a crimson field
>     For Betsy's battle flag!"
>
>I found the poem in Burton Stevenson's Book of quotations, but
>unfortunately without date or title of Irving's book, if any. (Irving,
>Minna, Mrs. Harry Michiner, 1857 - 1940, American verse-writer)
>
>Jan Ivarsson, Sweden
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: den 1 november 2000 13:40
>Subject: Re: Heavens to...
>
>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>
>> > "Heavens to Betsy" is apparently entirely mysterious in its origin. It is
>> > discussed at the M-W Web site and at Quinion's site. There is a book by
>> > this title by Charles Earle Funk (1955, now available in paperback), in
>> > which Dr. Funk reports his failure to establish an 'etymology'.
>>
>> The OED's first use for "heavens to Betsy/Betsey" is dated 1892.  Making
>> of America yields the following earlier example:
>>
>> 1878 _Harper's New Monthly Mag._ Sept. 582  "Heavens-to-Betsy!  You don't
>> think I ever see a copper o' her cash, do ye?
>>
>>
>> Fred Shapiro
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>> Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
>> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
>> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------



gcohen at umr.edu


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Nov  2 02:07:22 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:07:22 -0600
Subject: Query: Chaucer's use of French words
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.200722.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone have the bibliographic reference(s) for the most detailed study
or studies about Chaucer's use of French words in his writings?  Any
information would be much appreciated.

-----Gerald Cohen





gcohen at umr.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  2 01:55:08 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:55:08 EST
Subject: Danish Pastry (still cooking)
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.205508.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   More on the Danish Pastry.

24 April 1920, BAKERS WEEKLY, pg. 17 full page ad.  A red & white ad for
"DANISH PASTRY BAKING SCHOOL."  A photo shows "INSTRUCTOR L. C. KLITTENG,
ORIGINATOR OF DANISH PASTRY IN U.S.A."  Instruction begins June 1st, and the
14-day course covers 100 hours.  It's at the Danish Culinary Studio, 146 5th
Ave, New York.

1 May 1920, BAKERS' HELPER, pg. 885, col. 1, recipe for "Danish Pastry
Dough," by Paul Richards.

15 May 1920, BAKERS' HELPER, pg. 978, col. 2 headline:
   SWEDISH, DANISH OR FRENCH PASTRIES.  (Recipes follow--ed.)

1 June 1920, BAKERS' HELPER, pg. 1029 full page ad:
THE MAN WHO MADE DANISH PASTRY FAMOUS
Klitteng's DANISH PASTRY SCHOOL New York
Opens July 1st
(Full photo of him in chef's garb--ed.)

1 June 1920, BAKERS' HELPER, pg. 1090, col. 1:
   _DANISH PASTRY SCHOOL STARTS JULY 1ST._
   The Danish Culinary Studio, 146 Fifth avenue, New York City, is scheduled
to open July 1st, and applicants are being enrolled for the first course.
The school has been founded by L. C. Klitteng, who came to this country from
Denmark in December, 1915, and has been responsible for most of the
popularity which Danish pastry has acquired here.  Shortly after his arrival
he made his choice dainties for the President's wedding.  (That would be
Woodrow Wilson.  That's what I asked the White House Historical Association
about and got no reply--ed.)  His next association was with Gertner's in New
York City, where he instructed the bakers fully in this line.  In his
extensive travels since, covering (col. 2--ed.)  thirty states, he has baked
in most of the leading cities, in some of the best bakeries and pastry shops.
 In the wake of his success sprang up many imitations to meet the new demand,
and inferior goods were put upon the market and sold at the prices which the
genuine products properly command.  (More s
tuff about the school--ed.)

26 February 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 2 full page ad:
Profits from DENMARK!
_Danish Pastry_ opens up to you a new field for profitable sales
(CRISCO by Procter & Gamble.  This ad ran weekly for a very long time--ed.)

13 March 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 11, col. 1:
_RESEARCH BAKERY GIVES RECIPE_
_Procter & Gamble Company Through_
_Experiments Tell How To Make A_
_Better Danish Pastry_
(If you advertise that much, I guess the papers have to give you a free
article--ed.)

7 April 1927, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 8, col. 1:
_Introduced Danish Pastry to New York_
_Herman Gertner Is the Man Who More Than Any Other_
_Is Responsible for the Great Vogue of Pastry in America_
(...)
   The genesis of his growth is that "every man deserves a chance."  This led
to his discovery of the chef who introduced Mr. Gertner to Danish pastry and
which led to Gertner's introducing Danish pastry to Broadway, New York, and
permanent stock engagements in the West.


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Nov  2 02:00:56 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:00:56 -0500
Subject: Quiet...
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.210056.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Recently, a salesman from Lebanon, PA, in talking about an air
conditioning system that his company installs, described the system as
being 'quiet'.  He pronounced the word as:  coy-ette    [ed.: please
excuse my lack of training in phonetics, and the appropriate IPA
symbols].

He used the same pronunciation several times, with my wife finally
asking him what the word meant.  He'd used a number of technical terms,
in reference to proprietary components of the air conditioning system,
and there was the contextual possibility that he meant something other
than 'quiet'.

He seemed to be surprised with our pronunciation of the word, and tried
to use our pronunciation in further conversation.  Needless to say, it
was not our intent to change his pronunciation.  Other words/phrases
that he used were typical of what we've heard for the area.  The
particular pronunciation of quiet was a new one for us.

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  2 03:06:34 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:06:34 EST
Subject: The Restaurateur
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.220634.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   That last cite from THE RESTAURATEUR about Herman Gertner is April 7, 1923
(not 1927).
   This New York City weekly publication (under two names) existed from
1923-1927 and from 1927-1931 (as THE RESTAURATEUR AND AMERICAN HOTELIER).
I'm trying to go through the entire thing.
   Here are some more items.

27 February 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 15, cols. 1-3:
_Honor Discoverer of "Pate de Foie Gras"_
   _Tribute to Inventor of Goose Liver Dainty to Pay Debt Owed by World's
Epicures_
   _Names of Cooks Seldom Given to "Master Dishes" and Chicken a la King was
of Quaker City Origin_
(Pg. 16, col. 3--ed.)
   The outstanding American example of nominal glory to skilled cooks is
William King, who was chef in the old Bellevue Hotel, in Philadelphia, about
1895.  A dyspeptic customer, to whome food seemed tempting, requested the
waiter one day to bring him something new.  So inspired, King prepared bits
of chicken, mushrooms, truffles, red and green peppers and cream.  The
dyspepsia victim ate heartily and demanded of the waiter who made the dish.
   Our chef, sir.  William King," he was told.
   "Oh, chicken a la King," remarked the customer.
(See ADS-L archives for William King--ed.)

15 May 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 4, cols. 1-2:
_SOLE A TEST OF PARIS RESTAURANTS_
_A Sure Indication of Cuisine Quality and Culinary Art.  The Quick Eateries
Are Known as "Prix Fixe"_
(Six or seven francs--ed.)

15 May 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 12, col. 2--They want variety; yet that
New England conservatism crops up, and they want the substantial things that
"mother used to make."  (OED on "mother used to make"?--ed.)

31 July 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 6, col. 1:
_"Meals on Wheels" Dinners Delivered_ (OED 1961?--ed.)
   THE London housewife who lives within a radius of two miles of Fulham Road
need not worry if she cann't manage to be at home in time to cook meals.  All
she has to do is to telephone to Mary's Meals on Wheels, headquarters in the
Fulham Road, and a hot three or four-course dinner will be waiting on her
doorstep whenever she wants it.

25 September 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, "The Art of Sandwich Making," pg. 3,
col. 1--_Some Three-Deckers_.

25 September 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 14, col. 2:
   _Big Apple Crop Being Harvested_
   New York State's 1926 apple crop is making vigorous entry into the
market...
(Neither this nor the 30 October 1926 story about NYC's Apple Week really
uses "Big Apple."  Again, I had  checked Apple Weeks and apple stories
thoroughly eight years ago--ed.)

23 October 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 16, col. 2:
   _The Continental Breakfast_
   The Continental breakfast is essentially simple.  Those served in
Switzerland and in Holland are the most delicious.  They consist almost of
the same dishes offered everywhere, but their breads are different.  (This
must have changed.  Now this means _nothing but_ coffee and a roll--ed.)

30 October 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 8, col. 2:
   _INC. Means "I Need Cash"_
(Col. 3--ed.)  "A corporation," the restaurateur replied, "was formed because
I was short of cash--and Inc. at the end of the corporate name stands, in
abbreviated form, for 'I need cash.'"


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Thu Nov  2 13:42:24 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 07:42:24 -0600
Subject: African heritage
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.074224.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have an African American friend who would like to trace her heritage back
to Africa.  Is there some way to do this?  Would the slave narratives help,
and if so, how does one get access to them?

She is also part Mississippi Native American, hence probably Choctaw,
right?  Any way to trace that heritage?

Please reply directly to me.

TIA,  Bob Wachal


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Nov  2 13:51:30 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:51:30 -0500
Subject: Quiet...
In-Reply-To: <3A00CAD8.E4E17609@ark.ship.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.085130.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is a fairly common (minor) speech "defect." I doubt if it was the word
but a failure to realize /w/, perhpas only  after /k/. Too bad you didn't
listen for his pronunciation of "quick," "quit," "and the like.

There is, as well, reduction of labial "friction" geographically, of
course; what is referred to (unkindly) as the Barbara Walters' syndrome,
but I know of no studies of this.

dInIs

>Recently, a salesman from Lebanon, PA, in talking about an air
>conditioning system that his company installs, described the system as
>being 'quiet'.  He pronounced the word as:  coy-ette    [ed.: please
>excuse my lack of training in phonetics, and the appropriate IPA
>symbols].
>
>He used the same pronunciation several times, with my wife finally
>asking him what the word meant.  He'd used a number of technical terms,
>in reference to proprietary components of the air conditioning system,
>and there was the contextual possibility that he meant something other
>than 'quiet'.
>
>He seemed to be surprised with our pronunciation of the word, and tried
>to use our pronunciation in further conversation.  Needless to say, it
>was not our intent to change his pronunciation.  Other words/phrases
>that he used were typical of what we've heard for the area.  The
>particular pronunciation of quiet was a new one for us.
>
>George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
>Shippensburg University


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From lvonschn at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Thu Nov  2 02:19:26 2000
From: lvonschn at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Luanne von Schneidemesser)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:19:26 -0600
Subject: floss and ghetto
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.201926.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Two queries.  Someone asked about the meaning of ghetto, as in "that was
ghetto."  It must be fairly new; it's not in the HDAS.  My son uses it but
isn't a great definer so wasn't really helpful.  What's its earliest date?

Then I received the following:

I recently attended an Afrocentric poetry reading in which two of the poets
used the word "floss" in their poems.
It seemed, from the context of both poems, to be a pejorative reference to
an undesirable trait/behavior in African Americans. In one poem the subject
was a woman, and the other, a male "type". I think they both used the term
as a verb.
I do not have copies of the poems, or access to the poets--who are not
published.
Thanking you in advance for any suggestions you send me for tracking down
the meaning of this word.
Mimi Mitchell

Any help?  TIA.

Luanne


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Nov  2 14:16:26 2000
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:16:26 -0500
Subject: Lexicography Discussion Group at MLA
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.091626.0500.ABATEFR@EARTHLINK.NET>

Are there any MLA members out there who can tell us what day and time this session will be at the upcoming MLA convention in DC?  Thanks in advance.


Frank Abate

Dictionary & Reference Specialists (DRS)
Consulting & Lexicographic Services
(860) 510-0100, ext 2311
abatefr at earthlink.net
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From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Nov  2 14:20:05 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:20:05 -0500
Subject: Lexicography Discussion Group at MLA
In-Reply-To: <004601c044d7$7da81a00$9b01a8c0@fabate>; from
 abatefr@EARTHLINK.NET on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 09:16:26AM -0500
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.092005.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Are there any MLA members out there who can tell us what day and
> time this session will be at the upcoming MLA convention in DC?
> Thanks in advance.

It will be from 10:15 to 11:30 on Thursday, December 28.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Nov  2 14:28:07 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:28:07 -0500
Subject: floss and ghetto
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20001101201239.00b76100@facstaff.wisc.edu>; from
 lvonschn@FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU on Wed, Nov 01,
 2000 at 08:19:26PM -0600
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.092807.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Two queries.  Someone asked about the meaning of ghetto, as in "that was
> ghetto."  It must be fairly new; it's not in the HDAS.  My son uses it but
> isn't a great definer so wasn't really helpful.  What's its earliest date?

I don't think this is slang; it's just something like 'characteristic of
or suitable for inner-city life'. A more common noun-to-adjective shift
is _street_ in a similar sense. An example from a rap magazine:

1997 _Source_ Oct. 146/3, I was so ghetto, threatening the crowd, talking
about if anybody takes it, I'ma see you.


> I recently attended an Afrocentric poetry reading in which two of
> the poets used the word "floss" in their poems.  It seemed, from the
> context of both poems, to be a pejorative reference to an
> undesirable trait/behavior in African Americans. In one poem the
> subject was a woman, and the other, a male "type". I think they both
> used the term as a verb.

This seems to be a relatively recent addition to the lexicon, but
I've come across numerous examples in the last few months. Sample:

2000 W. Shaw _Westsiders: Stories of the Boys in the Hood_ 218
'Flossin'' is pretending to be something that you aren't. Archetypally,
hip-hoppers are accused of flossin' when they pretend to be affiliated
with gangs, when in fact very few are.

The earliest example I have right at hand is from 1995, but I don't
have any likely earlier sources.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Thu Nov  2 14:27:26 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:27:26 -0500
Subject: floss and ghetto
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.092726.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Geneva Smitherman's "Black Talk," there is an entry for

Flossin   "Pretending, faking something;putting on a front; trying to
appear calm and cool."

There is also an entry for

ghetto fabulous (sometimes ghetto fab) "Describes a person or thing that is
fantastic, the height of something, according to the authentic, natural,
"keepin it real" standards of Blackness that are believe to exist in ghetto
communities."


I hope this helps.


Joe





Luanne von Schneidemesser <lvonschn at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on
11/01/2000 09:19:26 PM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sent by:  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
cc:
Subject:  floss and ghetto


Two queries.  Someone asked about the meaning of ghetto, as in "that was
ghetto."  It must be fairly new; it's not in the HDAS.  My son uses it but
isn't a great definer so wasn't really helpful.  What's its earliest date?

Then I received the following:

I recently attended an Afrocentric poetry reading in which two of the poets
used the word "floss" in their poems.
It seemed, from the context of both poems, to be a pejorative reference to
an undesirable trait/behavior in African Americans. In one poem the subject
was a woman, and the other, a male "type". I think they both used the term
as a verb.
I do not have copies of the poems, or access to the poets--who are not
published.
Thanking you in advance for any suggestions you send me for tracking down
the meaning of this word.
Mimi Mitchell

Any help?  TIA.

Luanne


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Nov  2 14:30:37 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:30:37 -0500
Subject: floss and ghetto
In-Reply-To: <OFA03D1D83.3126C5E4-ON8525698B.004EFA96@hmco.com>; from
 Joe_Pickett@HMCO.COM on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 09:27:26AM -0500
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.093037.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 09:27:26AM -0500, Joe Pickett wrote:
> In Geneva Smitherman's "Black Talk," there is an entry for
>
> Flossin   "Pretending, faking something;putting on a front; trying to
> appear calm and cool."

(Just to clarify, Joe is citing from the 2000 edition of this book;
the original edition, in 1994, did not include this entry.)

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Thu Nov  2 14:29:54 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:29:54 -0500
Subject: Lexicography Discussion Group at MLA
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.092954.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The  MLA lexicography session will be held on

Thursday, December 28
10:15-11:30 AM
Maryland Suite B, Marriott

The subject is "Words on the Web"--the idea being how you use the web to
research words.

Several ADS members are giving papers.


Joe


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Thu Nov  2 14:32:49 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:32:49 -0500
Subject: floss and ghetto
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.093249.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Smitherman's book tends to support Jesse's evidence that these are recent
coinages.

Neither term appears in the 1994 copyright of Black Talk.  Both are in the
2000 copyright.

Joe





Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on 11/02/2000
09:28:07 AM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sent by:  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
cc:
Subject:  Re: floss and ghetto


> Two queries.  Someone asked about the meaning of ghetto, as in "that was
> ghetto."  It must be fairly new; it's not in the HDAS.  My son uses it
but
> isn't a great definer so wasn't really helpful.  What's its earliest
date?

I don't think this is slang; it's just something like 'characteristic of
or suitable for inner-city life'. A more common noun-to-adjective shift
is _street_ in a similar sense. An example from a rap magazine:

1997 _Source_ Oct. 146/3, I was so ghetto, threatening the crowd, talking
about if anybody takes it, I'ma see you.


> I recently attended an Afrocentric poetry reading in which two of
> the poets used the word "floss" in their poems.  It seemed, from the
> context of both poems, to be a pejorative reference to an
> undesirable trait/behavior in African Americans. In one poem the
> subject was a woman, and the other, a male "type". I think they both
> used the term as a verb.

This seems to be a relatively recent addition to the lexicon, but
I've come across numerous examples in the last few months. Sample:

2000 W. Shaw _Westsiders: Stories of the Boys in the Hood_ 218
'Flossin'' is pretending to be something that you aren't. Archetypally,
hip-hoppers are accused of flossin' when they pretend to be affiliated
with gangs, when in fact very few are.

The earliest example I have right at hand is from 1995, but I don't
have any likely earlier sources.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Thu Nov  2 15:10:28 2000
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:10:28 -0500
Subject: Query: Chaucer's use of French words
In-Reply-To: <v03130303b6267b40bedb@[131.151.64.128]>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.101028.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
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Type: text/enriched
Size: 207 bytes
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From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Thu Nov  2 15:35:27 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:35:27 EST
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.103527.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry Popik posted the following, regarding a marketing campaign by
Ballantine's brewery to induce drinkers to order their beer by making
a "3-ring" sign with the fingers.  This gesture is also known as the
"OK" sign.

        14 September 1939, BUCKEYE TAVERN, pg. 4, col. 4:   Also, if
        you ever pull that Three Fingered sign of Ballantine's beer in front
        of a nice Latin gal, you'll get a slap in the face.

Does anyone whon why a nice Latin gal would be offended at the
3-ring/OK sign?

GAT


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Nov  2 16:07:57 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:07:57 -0500
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.110757.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm presuming that whomever is offended at the 3-ring/OK sign is
offended because that gesture is the equivalent, in their culture, of
the raised middle finger in much of 'U.S. culture'.

Several years ago, one of my students from an Asian country asked why a
beer commercial ended with the guy, in the ad, making the (OK) sign
after taking a sip of beer.  He had thought that U.S. TV was
conservative, and was surprised to see such a gesture in one of our TV
commercials.

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Nov  2 16:27:51 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:27:51 -0500
Subject: ads website
In-Reply-To: <3A013D94.4854.4D5436DD@localhost>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.112751.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm currently unable to access the website. It's still at
americandialect.org, yes? It's redirecting me to an IP address at
10.0.0.1 which seems awfully odd...


--- Steve K.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  2 16:39:21 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:39:21 EST
Subject: ads website
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.113921.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/2/2000 12:28:14 PM, stevek at SHORE.NET writes:

<< I'm currently unable to access the website. It's still at
americandialect.org, yes? It's redirecting me to an IP address at
10.0.0.1 which seems awfully odd...


--- Steve K. >>

It just tells me that the site is not currently accepting callers--too busy,
it says. Ditto the MLA website.

CLEARLY, now that my hero, Al Gore, has INVENTED the internet he needs four
more years to make it WORK RIGHT! That explains how I wil vote on Tuesday.
Ralph Nader & Pat Buchanan would surely dismantle it; George Bush doesn't
even know for sure what it is, let alone how to pronunce it.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov  2 03:48:54 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:48:54 +0800
Subject: Quiet...
In-Reply-To: <l03130302b6272127416e@[35.8.73.31]>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.114854.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>This is a fairly common (minor) speech "defect." I doubt if it was the word
>but a failure to realize /w/, perhpas only  after /k/. Too bad you didn't
>listen for his pronunciation of "quick," "quit," "and the like.
>
Is it really a defect?  We've discussed non-labial pronunciations of
"quarter" (as [k)rt at r]) a while back, and I suspect it would be much
more likely for the "coy-ette" speaker to pronounce "quarter" that
way than to have non-labial pronunciations of "quick", "quit", and
other front vowel words.  I wonder if "quite" would be [kwayt] or
[k)yt] (as in "coyt") for this speaker.

larry


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov  2 17:04:33 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:04:33 +0100
Subject: www.americandialect.org
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.180433.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

On mercredi 1 novembre 2000 22:01, Grant Barrett <gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM> wrote:
>The ADS web site is experiencing a temporary glitch. Some visitors will get an
error
>when trying to load it. Everything should be fine by 6 a.m. Pacific time tomorrow,
>but in the meantime, if you can't load the site (and you should check first), use
one
>of the following:
>
>http://128.192.25.102/ads/
>
>http://us.english.uga.edu/ads/
>

The problem still exists. I am on it. Please use the addresses above.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Nov  2 17:11:23 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:11:23 -0500
Subject: Quiet...
In-Reply-To: <p04320402b6267b1fd3e0@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.121123.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Good pernt.

>>This is a fairly common (minor) speech "defect." I doubt if it was the word
>>but a failure to realize /w/, perhpas only  after /k/. Too bad you didn't
>>listen for his pronunciation of "quick," "quit," "and the like.
>>
>Is it really a defect?  We've discussed non-labial pronunciations of
>"quarter" (as [k)rt at r]) a while back, and I suspect it would be much
>more likely for the "coy-ette" speaker to pronounce "quarter" that
>way than to have non-labial pronunciations of "quick", "quit", and
>other front vowel words.  I wonder if "quite" would be [kwayt] or
>[k)yt] (as in "coyt") for this speaker.
>
>larry


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  2 17:49:54 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:49:54 EST
Subject: Datacasting
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.124954.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DATACASTING

   From the NEW YORK POST, 2 November 2000, pg. 38, col. 1:

_Silicon Valley says_
_datacasting is hot_
Chris Nolan
   THIS is either the next new thing or it's a money pit bigger than anything
any dot-com dilettante has dreamed up.
   It's called datacasting.  And while the details vary from company to
company, the fundamental idea is to use broadcast television signals to send
digital information to homes.
(Check www.nypost.com for the rest of the article--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

HAVES vs. HAVE-MORES--I'm seeing this instead of "Haves vs. Have-Nots."

ELECTORAL COLLEGE/VOTE SWAPPING (off topic)--George  Will's column in today's
NY Post is "Abolish the Electoral College?  What Anti-American Idiocy!"  The
big highlighted quote was "There _never_ has been an Electoral College
victory by a candidate who lost the popular vote by a substantial margin."
Thanks--we're concerned about _close_ election, George.
   He calls me a "simple-minded majoritarian."  (Such a nice insult, he
repeated it twice.) So is he for or against vote swapping?  So he supports
the candidates skipping New York entirely for--Wisconsin?  And he supports
the possibility that a candidate with the most votes could lose?


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov  2 18:00:31 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 19:00:31 +0100
Subject: Ghetto
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.190031.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

On jeudi 2 novembre 2000 15:27, Joe Pickett <Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM> wrote:

>In Geneva Smitherman's "Black Talk," there is an entry for
>
>ghetto fabulous (sometimes ghetto fab) "Describes a person or thing that is
>fantastic, the height of something, according to the authentic, natural,
>"keepin it real" standards of Blackness that are believe to exist in ghetto
>communities."

and

On jeudi 2 novembre 2000 15:28, Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:

>I don't think this is slang; it's just something like 'characteristic
>of or suitable for inner-city life'. A more common noun-to-adjective
>shift is _street_ in a similar sense. An example from a rap magazine:
>
>1997 _Source_ Oct. 146/3, I was so ghetto, threatening the crowd,
>talking about if anybody takes it, I'ma see you.


This are both inconsistent with my current main understanding of ghetto, which is
more in line with "white trash" values: cheap (tight, miserly), lazy, niggardly, maybe
jerry-rigged (half-assed), ill-mannered, uncouth, uncivilized.

Also, I see from the archives that in 1997 I posted this:

There's a New York City usage of "ghetto" that means something like:
"provincial/local/unworldly/neighborhood-dwelling/small-town-like." The young
Hispanic couple
I met lost in Central Park this past summer would be ghetto: After they told me they
had been lost
in the park for hours, I assumed they were from the outer boroughs or Jersey, but
they turned out
to be from Alphabet City (about 60 blocks away, a few miles at most).

A piece a couple of weeks ago in the New York Times Magazine (I believe) had a
Chinese-American who described himself and his friends as being very "ghetto" when
they would
walk 80 blocks to Gray's Papaya in order to eat 50 cent frankfurters and to avoid
paying $3.00
each for the round-trip subway ride. There was also a vague subtext of "ghetto"
including
customs that belonged only to a certain neighborhood (in this case New York's
Chinatown), such
as wearing a long lock of hair in the front, and wearing very wide-legged jeans (as
much as 30


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Nov  2 18:01:29 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:01:29 -0800
Subject: "O. K." sign
In-Reply-To: <3A01915D.BB272F37@ark.ship.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.100129.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oh, no!!!

A few years ago I used the "o.k." sign in a conversation with my very
gracious hosts on a visit to China.  They didn't seem to get it, so I
provided a translation.  Only later did it occur to me to wonder if in fact
I had inadvertently given them the finger.  Your message removes the veil
of hopeful ignorance I've carefully maintained ever since.

Peter Mc.

--On Thu, Nov 2, 2000 11:07 AM -0500 GSCole <gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU> wrote:

> I'm presuming that whomever is offended at the 3-ring/OK sign is
> offended because that gesture is the equivalent, in their culture, of
> the raised middle finger in much of 'U.S. culture'.
>
> Several years ago, one of my students from an Asian country asked why a
> beer commercial ended with the guy, in the ad, making the (OK) sign
> after taking a sip of beer.  He had thought that U.S. TV was
> conservative, and was surprised to see such a gesture in one of our TV
> commercials.
>
> George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
> Shippensburg University



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Nov  2 18:17:52 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:17:52 -0500
Subject: "O. K." sign
In-Reply-To: <3A01915D.BB272F37@ark.ship.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.131752.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I'm presuming that whomever is offended at the 3-ring/OK sign is
>offended because that gesture is the equivalent, in their culture, of
>the raised middle finger in much of 'U.S. culture'.
>
>Several years ago, one of my students from an Asian country asked why a
>beer commercial ended with the guy, in the ad, making the (OK) sign
>after taking a sip of beer.  He had thought that U.S. TV was
>conservative, and was surprised to see such a gesture in one of our TV
>commercials.

This is an interesting topic. Can someone direct me to a Web-site giving a
large list of gestures? Or to a book?

I have heard of the gesture with the thumb between the forefinger and
middle finger of the closed fist -- isn't this the one called "the fig"?
I've also heard of the 'OK' sign being an equivalent obscene gesture
somewhere. Somebody once told me that a two-finger salute (forefinger +
middle finger) like a reversed 'peace sign' or 'victory sign' is used in
Britain like the single upraised middle finger is in the US and elsewhere.

And what about the finger pulling down the lower eyelid? Or the (forefinger
+ little finger) salute? Or the finger to the side of the nose? I can't say
exactly what these mean right now.

I note that during my misspent youth in the US I sometimes encountered the
'OK' sign with the hand turned upside-down, as if one were presenting a
cylindrical object end-on; this was used with an obvious obscene sense
between males, but usually humorously, sometimes accompanied by some remark
(I found "Speak into the microphone, please" rather amusing).

In London about 10 years ago, a kind UK native filled me in on some current
British culture, including the 'OK' sign formed very close to the forehead
or temple to mean "dickhead" -- apparently used in traffic particularly.

-- Doug Wilson


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Nov  2 18:33:51 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:33:51 -0500
Subject: "O. K." sign
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001102122935.030c0910@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.133351.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not at home so I can't give any gesture references, but I have just
descended one floor and consulted a large number of Chinese native
speaker-gesturers. The results are as follows:

All Taiwanese repsondents said the sign means "OK." They also believe it is
borrowed from AmerEng.

All mainland Chinese repsondents said it meant nothing. When I then pressed
them for similar gestures which might have obscene (or sexual) meanings,
they all still said "no." When I specifically asked them if it meant the
same thing as "giving the finger" (which they all knew), they emphatially
said "no" (and they copvered quite a few areas of mainland China).

Please don't write in with the suspicion that they were being too polite.

dInIs (lucky to have respondents so close by)

PS: So far as I know, the sexual meaning referred to is pretty common all
over Latin America (and is not a "variant" of the "figa").

>>I'm presuming that whomever is offended at the 3-ring/OK sign is
>>offended because that gesture is the equivalent, in their culture, of
>>the raised middle finger in much of 'U.S. culture'.
>>
>>Several years ago, one of my students from an Asian country asked why a
>>beer commercial ended with the guy, in the ad, making the (OK) sign
>>after taking a sip of beer.  He had thought that U.S. TV was
>>conservative, and was surprised to see such a gesture in one of our TV
>>commercials.
>
>This is an interesting topic. Can someone direct me to a Web-site giving a
>large list of gestures? Or to a book?
>
>I have heard of the gesture with the thumb between the forefinger and
>middle finger of the closed fist -- isn't this the one called "the fig"?
>I've also heard of the 'OK' sign being an equivalent obscene gesture
>somewhere. Somebody once told me that a two-finger salute (forefinger +
>middle finger) like a reversed 'peace sign' or 'victory sign' is used in
>Britain like the single upraised middle finger is in the US and elsewhere.
>
>And what about the finger pulling down the lower eyelid? Or the (forefinger
>+ little finger) salute? Or the finger to the side of the nose? I can't say
>exactly what these mean right now.
>
>I note that during my misspent youth in the US I sometimes encountered the
>'OK' sign with the hand turned upside-down, as if one were presenting a
>cylindrical object end-on; this was used with an obvious obscene sense
>between males, but usually humorously, sometimes accompanied by some remark
>(I found "Speak into the microphone, please" rather amusing).
>
>In London about 10 years ago, a kind UK native filled me in on some current
>British culture, including the 'OK' sign formed very close to the forehead
>or temple to mean "dickhead" -- apparently used in traffic particularly.
>
>-- Doug Wilson


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Thu Nov  2 18:26:15 2000
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:26:15 -0500
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.132615.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:01 AM 11/2/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>Oh, no!!!
>
>A few years ago I used the "o.k." sign in a conversation with my very
>gracious hosts on a visit to China.  They didn't seem to get it, so I
>provided a translation.  Only later did it occur to me to wonder if in fact
>I had inadvertently given them the finger.  Your message removes the veil
>of hopeful ignorance I've carefully maintained ever since.
>
>Peter Mc.
>

I don't know if the Latin American gesture is known in China, though the
American one is quite possibly unfamiliar there. However, the American
gesture is so common here in the US that travelers and expatriates often
assume it is a universal gesture of approval and therefore highly useful to
those with an imperfect knowledge of the local language.

The similar gesture that is currently under disussion is known throughout
(?) Latin America, including Brasil where the language is Ports. not
Spanish. It is not identical to the US gesture, at least not in the parts of
Brasil where I resided -- the US gesture places the thumb at the bottom of
the gesture and the Latin American one is basically inverted, with the thumb
at the top. I was told that the origin of the LatAm gesture is some kind of
negative comment on the anal aperture of the person at whom it is directed,
but of course this may be folklore or a distortion, and there may well be a
variety of "explanations" for the genture.

Actually, in urban and toruist areas, a fair number of Brasilians are
familiar with the American gesture and are not at all confused by it.
However, they will sometimes point out that it is best avoided because of
the resemblance to what is, in not a few contexts, a taboo gesture locally.
Use and non-use of the US gesture were a signifiant barometer of
newbie/non-newbie status among American kids in the US-curriculum high
school I attended in Sao Paulo.


Greg Downing, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Nov  2 18:58:22 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:58:22 -0800
Subject: "O. K." sign
In-Reply-To: <l03130301b62762b5a82e@[35.8.73.31]>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.105822.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you, DInIs!!!


--On Thu, Nov 2, 2000 1:33 PM -0500 "Dennis R. Preston"
<preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU> wrote:

> I'm not at home so I can't give any gesture references, but I have just
> descended one floor and consulted a large number of Chinese native
> speaker-gesturers. The results are as follows:
>
> All Taiwanese repsondents said the sign means "OK." They also believe it
> is borrowed from AmerEng.
>
> All mainland Chinese repsondents said it meant nothing. When I then
> pressed them for similar gestures which might have obscene (or sexual)
> meanings, they all still said "no." When I specifically asked them if it
> meant the same thing as "giving the finger" (which they all knew), they
> emphatially said "no" (and they copvered quite a few areas of mainland
> China).

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU  Thu Nov  2 19:08:12 2000
From: krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU (Karl J. Krahnke)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:08:12 -0700
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.120812.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the very limited but strongly standardized gestural language used in scuba
diving, the circled thumb and finger mean "ok."  This is taught by a number of
international scuba certification agencies all over the world.  I have never
heard of a local substitution on the basis of taboo or ambiguity.  Could happen
tho.  I'll ask around.

Karl Krahnke
English Department
Colorado State University


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov  2 19:15:31 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:15:31 +0100
Subject: O. K. sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.201531.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

When I was a kid, we used to do the OK sign, hand held down low close to the body,
the circle facing up, fingers splayed out. We'd hold it there until someone looked at
it, then we got to hit them. I dunno why.


From janivars at BAHNHOF.SE  Thu Nov  2 19:47:23 2000
From: janivars at BAHNHOF.SE (Jan Ivarsson)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:47:23 +0100
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.204723.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is a book on French sign language by
Geneviéve Calbris & Jacques Montredon
"Des gestes et des mots pour le dire"
published in 1986 (with later reprints) by
 Clé International, 79, avenue Denfert-Rochereau,
 75014 Paris
This book gives the sense of this gesture as "au quart de poil"
which means "perfectly" or "very good".
In Italy, the same gesture will be interpreted as
very obscene.

Jan Ivarsson, Sweden

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: den 2 november 2000 19:17
Subject: Re: "O. K." sign


> >I'm presuming that whomever is offended at the 3-ring/OK sign is
> >offended because that gesture is the equivalent, in their culture, of
> >the raised middle finger in much of 'U.S. culture'.
> >
> >Several years ago, one of my students from an Asian country asked why a
> >beer commercial ended with the guy, in the ad, making the (OK) sign
> >after taking a sip of beer.  He had thought that U.S. TV was
> >conservative, and was surprised to see such a gesture in one of our TV
> >commercials.
>
> This is an interesting topic. Can someone direct me to a Web-site giving a
> large list of gestures? Or to a book?
>
> I have heard of the gesture with the thumb between the forefinger and
> middle finger of the closed fist -- isn't this the one called "the fig"?
> I've also heard of the 'OK' sign being an equivalent obscene gesture
> somewhere. Somebody once told me that a two-finger salute (forefinger +
> middle finger) like a reversed 'peace sign' or 'victory sign' is used in
> Britain like the single upraised middle finger is in the US and elsewhere.
>
> And what about the finger pulling down the lower eyelid? Or the (forefinger
> + little finger) salute? Or the finger to the side of the nose? I can't say
> exactly what these mean right now.
>
> I note that during my misspent youth in the US I sometimes encountered the
> 'OK' sign with the hand turned upside-down, as if one were presenting a
> cylindrical object end-on; this was used with an obvious obscene sense
> between males, but usually humorously, sometimes accompanied by some remark
> (I found "Speak into the microphone, please" rather amusing).
>
> In London about 10 years ago, a kind UK native filled me in on some current
> British culture, including the 'OK' sign formed very close to the forehead
> or temple to mean "dickhead" -- apparently used in traffic particularly.
>
> -- Doug Wilson


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  2 21:01:17 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:01:17 EST
Subject: NADS 32.3
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.160117.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This afternoon (Nov. 2) the "September" issue of the Newsletter of the
American Dialect Society at last entered the mailstream. It goes first class
in the U.S. and by air elsewhere, so ADS members should get their copies
within a few days.

For the past week you've also been able to read it via PDF at the ADS
website. Now you'll have a copy that can stay with you even if the lights go
out.

The next issue is intended for January, shortly after our annual meeting; and
with the help of a capable new student assistant, I think I'll be able to get
back on schedule with that one. Meanwhile, thanks for your patience with
this; and please send me your news, address corrections, etc. - Allan Metcalf


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Nov  2 23:13:52 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:13:52 -0500
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.181352.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OK, I should have asked my student just where it was, in his many
travels, that he was informed that our finger gesture of OK was the
equivalent of an obscene gesture.  My initial presumption does not
appear to be OK.

Dennis' comments caused me to wonder why I hadn't earlier pursued the
'hand gestures' topic with some of my colleagues.  Years ago, in Korea,
I'd learned that the U.S. good-bye wave was akin to the Korean gesture
for 'come here.'  That misunderstanding caused a minor problem on a DMZ
patrol.  I don't doubt that there are other gestures, however subtle,
that leave room for misunderstanding.

I sought some clarification from Roger E. Axtell's -- Gestures: The Do's
and Taboos of Body Language Around the World, as published by John Wiley
& Sons in 1991.  The eyelid pull, as noted in Doug's question, is among
the many gestures discussed in the book.

Axtell has a couple of pages with information on the 'O.K. sign'.  He
closes one section with the statement that "Better, perhaps, to quickly
learn the words in the local language for 'Yes' and 'Fine' and keep your
hands at your side.  Elsewhere, in the book, he notes that the OK sign
is likely to be an insult of some sort in:  Malta, Sardinia, Greece,
Brazil, Tunisia, Italy, Turkey, the Soviet Union, and Paraguay.

A web site that contains some of the Axtell information is:
http://www.webofculture.com/refs/gestures.html

Central and South American gestures at:
http://www.webofculture.com/refs/gesture_s_am.html

Other, web sites that present some info:
http://www.salonmag.com/wlust/road/1998/11/19road.html
http://www.transimage.com/Ges/GesOK.html

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Nov  2 23:46:59 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:46:59 -0800
Subject: Danish Pastry (still cooking)
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.154659.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    More on the Danish Pastry.

So Klitteng introduced Danish Pastry to the US and
Herman Gertner, supposedly a student of Klitteng,
popularized it...or is this a dispute as to who
introduced Danish Pastry?



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
>From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer.
http://experts.yahoo.com/


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Nov  2 23:51:47 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:51:47 -0800
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.155147.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:

> And what about the finger pulling down the lower
> eyelid?

Mon oeil ... my eye ... same meaning of doubt or
skepticism as in english.

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
>From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer.
http://experts.yahoo.com/


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov  2 11:34:04 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 19:34:04 +0800
Subject: more vowel weirdness
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.193404.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For anyone who watches "The West Wing", or more specifically the last
two episodes, including last night's--are the /o/s of the new cast
addition, Ainsley the Republican lawyer, an affectation or a regional
trait, and if the latter, which region?  They're sort of fronted at
the first part of the diphthong, but there's something else going on.
I thought it might be a certain kind of private school education
feature, but a friend thought maybe Missouri.

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  3 01:08:30 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:08:30 EST
Subject: Los Angeles Free Press (1964-1965)
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.200830.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I went through about a year of the Los Angeles Free Press.  By the way, it
wasn't free.  It was ten cents.  The price has since been dropped--free at
last!

17 September 1964, LAFP, pg. 1, cols. 4-5--(Photos of political buttons,
including "peace" sign.)

24 September 1964, LAFP, pg. 1, cols 1-2--(Photo of the closed "CAFE
EXPRESSO.")

24 September 1964, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 2--MONEYTHEISM. (...)
"God gives me--100%
I return to God--10%
Balance to me--90%"

24 September 1964, LAFP, pg. 4, col. 2--...I still prefer the non-offensive
such as "having intercourse" or even "mating" of the rather clumsy "making
love"...

24 September 1964, LAFP, pg. 5, col. 1--The "puff-in" calls for a large group
to light up marijuana cigarettes in the police station, challenging the law.
(...)  He had first announced to the press his intention to "turn-on" at the
police station.

22 October 1964, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 2--Here is a list of names, those who
constitute the real creme de la creme of Los Angeles power and influence.
This is "the establishment."

12 November 1964, LAFP, pg. 1, col. 1:
_"KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE PRIZE"_
(Pg. 3, col. 1--ed.)
_"Snick" Challenges The White Power Structure_
(...)  One of their songs goes:
Paul and Silas, bound in jail,
Had no money for to go their bail
Keep your eyes on the prize--hold on...

19 November 1964, LAFP, pg. 4, col. 4--One last word, and I continue this
letter because I did enjoy being in California, and would not waste my time
writing, if I did not feel strongly assured that the marvelous will happen as
suddenly there in LOBSTER LAND (to quote Jack Smith) as it did happen in New
York City.

26 November 1964, LAFP, pg. 12, cols 4-5 cartoon:
The _real_ people don't have beards after all!
But if I shave mine off now--I'll look like a phony trying to look like a
_real_ person.

3 December 1964, LAFP, pg.1 headline--OUR OFF-OFF BROADWAY.

18 December 1964, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--DAMNED IF YOU DO AND DAMNED IF YOU
DON'T.

22 January 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--THE NEW STATE OF DISNEYLAND: To
immunize the city of Los Angeles against further Disneyfication, Disneyland
could be made a separate state...

12 February 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--ONE STEP FORWARD AND TWO STEPS BACK.

19 February 1965, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 3--In Japan, the Gutai group started off
the current wave of happenings in the early 1950s with an art show in the sky
(balloons, kites, etc. from the roof of a department store)...

5 March 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--WHEN YOU GOTTA GO--The latest movement is
a civil rights movement to restore to Americans the right to free toilets in
public places.  (...)  The wording of the Proposition had not yet been
annnounced, nor has the Proposition been given a number as yet, but the Wasp
(Lawrence Lipton's column--ed.), always first in every good movement,
suggests the slogan: VOTE YES ON No. 2.

19 March 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--THE STRATEGY OF ONE FELL SWOOP: Or is it
the Swell Foop?

19 March 1965, LAFP, pg. 3, cols. 1-2:
_WHAT'S IN A WORD?_
_"PHUQUE" WON'T DO_
(Free speech on Berkeley campus--ed.)

16 April 1965, LAFP, pg. 5, cols. 1-3 ad:
LARRY MOYER'S
"THE MOVING FINGER"
Winner "Best Director" Award
San Francisco Film Festival
SEE...Freakos...wierdies (sic)...sickos...corrupt fuzz...faggots...wasted
youth...smut...
(The illustration shows "the finger."  RHHDAS doesn't cite/"finger" this
film. I couldn't tell you about the script.  Movie reviews of this film
should be checked for "the bird"--ed.)

30 April 1965, pg. 5, col. 1:
_NO FREAKO FOR MOVING FINGER_
(Larry Moyers, a 41-year-old New Yorker, says he made the film in
1962-63--ed.)
(Col. 5--ed.)
   "The (sic) showed it to the exploitation guys and they said, 'There's no
tits, there's no ass.  There's nothing in this damned picture.'
   "So I said, 'Why don't we cut all these things right into the picture.  If
they want tits and ass, let's give 'em tits and ass.'  Which was a
revolutionary thing then."
(No "T&A" though--ed.)

14 May 1965, LAFP, pg. 1 headline:
_Teach-Ins, Teach-Outs, White-Outs_.

21 May 1965, LAFP, "WHITE-OUT BLACKED-OUT," pg. 1, col. 3--...a "White-Out"
covering their exhibits of paintings and sculpture with bands of white papers
bearing the stop escalation symbol of the protest movement.
("Peace" symbol?--ed.)

28 May 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 2--The question is whether or not the
particular pbject is so-called "hard-core pornography".

25 June 1965, LAFP, pg. 7, col. 2--Mr. "Jesus H. Christ"?

25 June 1965, LAFP, "MAN, JUST TELL IT LIKE IT IS," pg. 6, col. 2:
   The actors are articulate and voluble about the play.  "This play is
different because it's the truth," they tell you.  "We go on stage and we
tell it like it is."
(Col. 4 end of article--ed.)
   As you walk out into the street, an actor calls after you in Negro tones,
"When you write it, man, tell it like it is, just tell it like it is."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov  2 12:52:07 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:52:07 +0800
Subject: Los Angeles Free Press (1964-1965)
In-Reply-To: <ca.c41a62e.27336a0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.205207.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:08 PM -0500 11/2/00, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>
>19 February 1965, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 3--In Japan, the Gutai group started off
>the current wave of happenings in the early 1950s with an art show in the sky
>(balloons, kites, etc. from the roof of a department store)...

A slightly later development which may or not be verifiable in the
Freep, probably some issue from the fall of '66 or spring '67, is the
"human be-in" (which evolved into the "love-in").  I was in LA at the
time, and we always maintained that WE had the be-in/love-in first,
before they made it to Berkeley.  I can't find "be-in" in the RHHDAS,
but that source (and the OED2) does confirm my hypothesis of
provenance for the "love-in", whose first three citings are all
L.A.-based, and all from the spring of 1967.  (The first cite is from
the L.A. Times of March 27, 1967.)  Barry, I wonder if your perusals
of the Freep will turn-up an earlier "love-in" (not that much
earlier, I'd wager--that spring before the summer of love would be
about right) or "(human) be-in".

larry


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  3 02:00:18 2000
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:00:18 EST
Subject: more vowel weirdness
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.210018.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If this is the feature I think you mean, I've noticed it from private school
grads (Exeter, Andover, Lawrenceville, and others) as far back as the late
70s.   A fronted first element-- almost as in RP. I always wondered how
widespread it was.

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  3 02:05:21 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:05:21 EST
Subject: Danish Pastry & Herman Gertner
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.210521.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the NEW YORK TIMES, 23 January 1962, pg. 33, col. 4:

_HERMAN GERTNER,_
_EX-RESTAURATEUR_
_Retired Owner of Chain on_
_Broadway Dies at 90_
   Herman Gertner, a well-known Broadway restaurateur a generation ago, died
yesterday at his home, 185 Riverside Drive.  He was 90 years aold.
   Mr. Gertner has often been given credit for introducing Danish pastry to
New York, and one of his bus boys was Leo Lindy, who later became famous for
his own establishment, Lindy's.
   At one time, Mr. Gertner had five resaurants operating along Broadway,
between Thirty-eighth and Ninety-seventh Streets.  He started in the
restaurant business on the lower East Side in 1903 or 1904, his relatives
recall, then opened a restaurant in the Broadway Central Hotel before moving
uptown.
   At one point during his career Mr. Gertner befriended a Danish baker who
convinced him that Danish pastry might be well received in New York.  Mr.
Gertner began serving the pastry in his restaurant and it immediately was a
success.
   Mr. Lindy, who started as a bus boy and later was promoted to waiter,
married Mr. Gertner's sister.  Mr. Gertner later made Mr. Lindy a manager of
one of his Broadway spots.  He retired from the business a quarter of a
century ago.
   He is survived by his widow, the former Frieda Engel; a son, Philip, of
New York; a sister, Mrs. Regina Abend of New York, and a grandchild.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov  3 02:51:41 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:51:41 -0500
Subject: floss and ghetto
In-Reply-To: <20001102092807.C23010@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.215141.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> is _street_ in a similar sense. An example from a rap magazine:
>
> 1997 _Source_ Oct. 146/3, I was so ghetto, threatening the crowd, talking
> about if anybody takes it, I'ma see you.

Here's an earlier example:

1996 _Wash. Post_ 27 Dec. (Nexis)  But that stuff doesn't mean anything to
me because I'm so ghetto.


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Nov  3 03:09:06 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:09:06 -0500
Subject: Fug
In-Reply-To: <20001101121833.A25848@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.220906.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"Fug" is mentioned in the note for _fuck_ v.: "the recent forms
>_fug, fugg_ are printed euphem. and do not represent pronun."
>There's an example of "mothafuggah" from one of Gover's later works
>cited at _motherfucker._ The forms that we broke out for separate
>treatment are, for the most part, not just printed euphemisms but
>different formations.

Maybe that's what Lighter (?) thinks, and maybe it's true for Gover (has he
been asked?) ...

In some cases "fug" = "f*ck" does represent pronunciation.

In Dan Simmons' new novel "Darwin's Blade":

I see the word "fuck" repeatedly -- "fucking" at least eight times on p.
45, for example. No need for 'printed euphemism' here.

But ... on p. 76: <<He ... recorded a new message on the answering machine:
"Yo, dis is Vito. Dere's nobody home but me an' the Dobermans. You got
sometin' to say to me ... say it! Otherwise, hang the fug up!">>

Clumsy writing perhaps, but the intention to represent pronunciation is
clear enough. I've seen other cases which I think are comparable.

[I'm not trying to assert that "fug" (in this sense) -- or "dis" or "dere"
for dat matter -- should have separate treatment.]

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Nov  3 03:35:20 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:35:20 -0500
Subject: Ghetto
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10011022150100.2367-100000@minerva.cis.yale. edu>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.223520.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > 1997 _Source_ Oct. 146/3, I was so ghetto, threatening the crowd, talking
> > about if anybody takes it, I'ma see you.
>
>Here's an earlier example:
>
>1996 _Wash. Post_ 27 Dec. (Nexis)  But that stuff doesn't mean anything to
>me because I'm so ghetto.

It seems to me that this is just an attributive noun becoming a
full-fledged adjective. One of the signs is its appearance as a predicate.

A similar case: the RH dictionary lists the adjective "country", with an
example "country roads". Surely this is fully analogous to "city streets",
but no adjective "city" is listed. Just about any noun can be used
attributively -- e.g., "I'm a city boy" or "I'm a country boy" -- but "He's
so country" sounds natural, while "He's so city" does not (at least not to
me, and presumably not to the RH folks) -- although I'm sure the latter
appears occasionally ... probably you'll even see "He's so Staten Island"
somewhere ....

-- Doug Wilson


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Nov  3 03:55:36 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:55:36 -0500
Subject: Quiet...
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.225536.0500.>

I have noted this phonetic phenomenon in some Malayalam speakers of
English. They don't articulate very well; hence their failure to realize
the /kw/ sound which does exist in Malayalam phonetics. Thus, QUIET gets
pronounced as (COY.et) or (COY.ut). I am putting the stress on the first
syllable because that way it is closer to actual speech than with the
stress on the second, Malayalam (mal.uh.YAH.lum) or, better,
(mul.uh.YAH.lum) having only long and short sounds, no stresses.

Same for QUICK which is heard as (kik), but QUIT is not heard as (kit).
Just sloppy enunciation, I would think. I am not a Malayalam scholar,
not even a socalled "native speaker"!

I hope all this doesn't sound too unscientific and outlandish!

Tom Paikeday



"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:
>
> This is a fairly common (minor) speech "defect." I doubt if it was the word
> but a failure to realize /w/, perhpas only  after /k/. Too bad you didn't
> listen for his pronunciation of "quick," "quit," "and the like.
>
> There is, as well, reduction of labial "friction" geographically, of
> course; what is referred to (unkindly) as the Barbara Walters' syndrome,
> but I know of no studies of this.
>
> dInIs
>
> >Recently, a salesman from Lebanon, PA, in talking about an air
> >conditioning system that his company installs, described the system as
> >being 'quiet'.  He pronounced the word as:  coy-ette    [ed.: please
> >excuse my lack of training in phonetics, and the appropriate IPA
> >symbols].
> >
> >He used the same pronunciation several times, with my wife finally
> >asking him what the word meant.  He'd used a number of technical terms,
> >in reference to proprietary components of the air conditioning system,
> >and there was the contextual possibility that he meant something other
> >than 'quiet'.
> >
> >He seemed to be surprised with our pronunciation of the word, and tried
> >to use our pronunciation in further conversation.  Needless to say, it
> >was not our intent to change his pronunciation.  Other words/phrases
> >that he used were typical of what we've heard for the area.  The
> >particular pronunciation of quiet was a new one for us.
> >
> >George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
> >Shippensburg University
>
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov  3 03:58:09 2000
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:58:09 -0500
Subject: The road from place-name to adjective (was Re: Ghetto)
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.225809.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:35 PM 11/2/2000 -0500, "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:
>probably you'll even see "He's so Staten Island" somewhere ....
>

Not to mention "so Brooklyn," "so Jersey," "so Long Island," "so Philly," etc.

Greg in Staten Island





Greg Downing, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From emckean at ENTERACT.COM  Fri Nov  3 04:14:25 2000
From: emckean at ENTERACT.COM (emckean at ENTERACT.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:14:25 -0600
Subject: "O. K." sign
In-Reply-To: <3A01F530.59278530@ark.ship.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.221425.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

With all these wonderful sources listed below, *somebody* ought to be able
to write a quick article on this for VERBATIM. Hint, hint. (1200-2000
words, by Dec. 1?)

(and don't forget to send George a finder's fee!).

Erin McKean
editor at verbatimmag.com



On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, GSCole wrote:

> OK, I should have asked my student just where it was, in his many
> travels, that he was informed that our finger gesture of OK was the
> equivalent of an obscene gesture.  My initial presumption does not
> appear to be OK.
>
> Dennis' comments caused me to wonder why I hadn't earlier pursued the
> 'hand gestures' topic with some of my colleagues.  Years ago, in Korea,
> I'd learned that the U.S. good-bye wave was akin to the Korean gesture
> for 'come here.'  That misunderstanding caused a minor problem on a DMZ
> patrol.  I don't doubt that there are other gestures, however subtle,
> that leave room for misunderstanding.
>
> I sought some clarification from Roger E. Axtell's -- Gestures: The Do's
> and Taboos of Body Language Around the World, as published by John Wiley
> & Sons in 1991.  The eyelid pull, as noted in Doug's question, is among
> the many gestures discussed in the book.
>
> Axtell has a couple of pages with information on the 'O.K. sign'.  He
> closes one section with the statement that "Better, perhaps, to quickly
> learn the words in the local language for 'Yes' and 'Fine' and keep your
> hands at your side.  Elsewhere, in the book, he notes that the OK sign
> is likely to be an insult of some sort in:  Malta, Sardinia, Greece,
> Brazil, Tunisia, Italy, Turkey, the Soviet Union, and Paraguay.
>
> A web site that contains some of the Axtell information is:
> http://www.webofculture.com/refs/gestures.html
>
> Central and South American gestures at:
> http://www.webofculture.com/refs/gesture_s_am.html
>
> Other, web sites that present some info:
> http://www.salonmag.com/wlust/road/1998/11/19road.html
> http://www.transimage.com/Ges/GesOK.html
>
> George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
> Shippensburg University
>


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Fri Nov  3 04:46:39 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:46:39 -0600
Subject: more vowel weirdness
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.224639.0600.>

I haven't seen the series, so I can't comment on any connection to Missouri.  I've heard
the "sort of fronted" onset in the articulation of /o/ in a variety of regional
pronunciations, including some people in Missouri.  Often it strikes me as a pseudo-formal
or pseudo-sophisticated pronunciation, but for some people it's the usual pronunciation,
including a friend (female) from West Virginia, born about 1927.   This pronunciation is
rather strong in her speech, and her husband uses it frequently, particularly in a formal
register.  But I haven't had the patience to do any systematic collection of data on this
item.
DMLance

Laurence Horn wrote:

> For anyone who watches "The West Wing", or more specifically the last
> two episodes, including last night's--are the /o/s of the new cast
> addition, Ainsley the Republican lawyer, an affectation or a regional
> trait, and if the latter, which region?  They're sort of fronted at
> the first part of the diphthong, but there's something else going on.
> I thought it might be a certain kind of private school education
> feature, but a friend thought maybe Missouri.
>
> larry


From natebrown1 at JUNO.COM  Fri Nov  3 12:10:46 2000
From: natebrown1 at JUNO.COM (Nathan H Brown)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:10:46 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.071046.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've heard that fronted /oU/ sound in several dialects. It's the sound
used in standard British speech. In America, I've heard it in southern
New Jersey, Philadelphia and Baltimore. I've also heard it in West
Virginia, from a 30-year-old or so contestant on "Who Wants to Be a
Millionaire." His parents, though, used the General American /oU/. DARE
says that it's a Philadelphia/Baltimore/Pittsburgh/eastern North Carolina
feature that has been spreading; maybe it has been spreading in West
Virginia. Ainsley is supposed to be from North Carolina; she could be
from the eastern part of the state. A friend of mine from Kansas City
says she's never used the sound or heard it in Kansas City; I guess it's
not heard in that part of Missouri.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Nov  3 12:51:06 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:51:06 -0500
Subject: more vowel weirdness
In-Reply-To: <69.c6a635a.27337632@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.075106.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Careful of its widespreadedness. Its source at the yuppie places you
mention is almost certainly RP (although I'd be happy to hear of other
theories), but back-vowel fronting is rampant in the American South and,
with slightly different pohonetic details, "Valley Girl," the latter
spreading like wildfire to the East. All these similar shifts may be
bumping heads in some places.

dInIs


>If this is the feature I think you mean, I've noticed it from private school
>grads (Exeter, Andover, Lawrenceville, and others) as far back as the late
>70s.   A fronted first element-- almost as in RP. I always wondered how
>widespread it was.
>
>Dale Coye
>The College of NJ


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Fri Nov  3 03:53:12 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:53:12 -0600
Subject: NADS 32.3
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.215312.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

I won't get NADS cause my membership keeps expiring.  How do I officially
re-join ADS?

----- Original Message -----
From: <AAllan at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 3:01 PM
Subject: NADS 32.3


> This afternoon (Nov. 2) the "September" issue of the Newsletter of the
> American Dialect Society at last entered the mailstream. It goes first
class
> in the U.S. and by air elsewhere, so ADS members should get their copies
> within a few days.
>
> For the past week you've also been able to read it via PDF at the ADS
> website. Now you'll have a copy that can stay with you even if the lights
go
> out.
>
> The next issue is intended for January, shortly after our annual meeting;
and
> with the help of a capable new student assistant, I think I'll be able to
get
> back on schedule with that one. Meanwhile, thanks for your patience with
> this; and please send me your news, address corrections, etc. - Allan
Metcalf


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov  3 16:10:04 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:10:04 EST
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.111004.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Douglaw Wilson wrote: "This is an interesting topic. Can someone
direct me to a Web-site giving a large list of gestures? Or to a
book?"

        Betty J. Bauml & Franz H. Bauml, Dictionary of Worldwide Gestures.
2nd ed., Lanham, Md & London, Scarecrow Pr., 1997.  This says (P.
141, under "Finger: Approval")  "Tip of thumb and index joined as
'A-OK' sign.  Obscene.  Greece; Turkey; Malta; N. Sardinia.  Morris
et al, p. 114.  Threatening, Tunisia.  Ibid, p. 115.  Rude.
Paraguay.  Axtell, Gestures, p. 213.  [Morris, et al. = Desmond
Morris, Gestures, Their Origins and Distribution, 1979.  Axtell has
been cited by someone already.]
        I don't think I see the actual "A-OK" gesture described here, though
it's hard to be sure.  They quote Quintillian and later writers
describing the gesture of thumb and forefinger joined at the tip, the
other fingers relaxed, as signifying approval.  I might describe this
as the natural hand position when tweaking one's moustache.  In the
A-OK gesture the outer fingers are extended and the palm presented to
the person addressed.  So the A-OK gesture is a dialectal variation
of an old gesture, folk-etymologized (by me, at least) as having
originated with the work "OK", the thumb and forefinger making the
"O" and the three outer fingers making the three strokes of the "K".
It seems to me that Quintillian's gesture is common in the US, but
less emphatic than the OK gesture.

        You all ought to read the chapers in Rabelais' Gargantua and
Pantagruel which are written in gestures:  Book II (Pantagruel), ch.
19, How Panurge overcame the Englishman who argued in gestures; and
Book III (Le Tiers Livre), How Goat-nose (Nazdecabre) answered
Panurge in gestures.  They are hilarious.  I assume some learned
Frenchman has written a study that explicates the gestures in these
chapters.

        The great folklorist Archer Taylor wrote a book called "The
Shanghai Gesture", on the history of the nose-thumbing gesture.
(Folklore Fellows Communication #166, 1956.)  (I take some quiet
pride in the thought that I am probably the only kid on my block to
have read both this and Charles Darwin's "Formation of Vegetable
Mould through the Action of Worms".)  As I recall, Taylor concludes
that the Shanghai Gesture is a parody of the military salute, and
originated in fairly recent times.  Indeed, my father, (US Army,
WWI) when in his cups, would frequently give a salute, exclaiming as
he did so "you mustn't turn your head", and turn his head to the
right while holding his hand still, which converted the salute into
the nose-thumbing gesture.

GAT


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Fri Nov  3 16:31:37 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:31:37 -0500
Subject: O. K. sign
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.113137.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the discussion on the American Dialect Society list about the US
popular-culture "OK" sign (thumb and forefinger making a circle, other
three fingers extended and spread),
Grant Barrett <gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM> writes:

>>>>>
When I was a kid, we used to do the OK sign, hand held down low close to the body,
the circle facing up, fingers splayed out. We'd hold it there until someone looked at
it, then we got to hit them. I dunno why.
<<<<<

Hmmm!

When I was a graduate student in Ling. at UC Berkeley (1973-80), working in
ASL, I learned of a similar joke among the Deaf* community thereabouts. A
Deaf person would make that handshape low down, close to the body; that's
at or outside the limits of normal signing space. If the Deaf person they
were with didn't see it in a few seconds and put their own index finger
through the hole, the first person would chop them on the arm.

* Small-d "deaf" is audiological; big-D "Deaf" is cultural.

I think I learned about this through a booklet I bought from a Deaf man I
knew slightly, a photographer named John Darcy Smith. It has no text, just
a series of photographs of people, one on each page. All the people
pictured were members of the local Deaf community. On (if I recall
correctly) each right-hand page one person shows another a card; the
"reader" of the booklet cannot see what is on the front of it. Overleaf on
the next left-hand page the second person reacts variously: laughter,
taking offense, frowning, bafflement, groaning as at a bad joke, etc. Then
on the facing right-hand page, the second person ("reacter") of the
previous dyad is showing the card to someone else, so the booklet as a
whole is a chain. And of course the reader's curiosity is building and
building: what IS this card that evokes such strong and diverse reactions?

On the next-to-last page, the last reacter is looking out of the page at
the reader, inviting the reader to look at the card. The last picture shows
the card in his hand, displayed to the camera's eye: a hand in the "OK"
handshape. And the Deaf reader finally gets it: Here's the joke handshape,
but how am I supposed to put my finger through the hole?

I am going to send this message to the Sign Languages Linguistics list as
well for further reaction.

   Mark A. Mandel : Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Senior Linguist
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov  3 16:53:34 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:53:34 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.115334.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's also in southern and southeastern Ohio, where I hear it mainly in mid-
and older people, so it's been around a long time in the South
Midland.  It's not the same as Valley Girl fronting, at least not that of
my southern Cal VG grad student, nor is it quite the same as in RP, but
it's close.  I forget who plays Ainsley; could she be doing a poor
imitation of NC and/or private school vowels?

At 07:10 AM 11/3/00 -0500, you wrote:
>I've heard that fronted /oU/ sound in several dialects. It's the sound
>used in standard British speech. In America, I've heard it in southern
>New Jersey, Philadelphia and Baltimore. I've also heard it in West
>Virginia, from a 30-year-old or so contestant on "Who Wants to Be a
>Millionaire." His parents, though, used the General American /oU/. DARE
>says that it's a Philadelphia/Baltimore/Pittsburgh/eastern North Carolina
>feature that has been spreading; maybe it has been spreading in West
>Virginia. Ainsley is supposed to be from North Carolina; she could be
>from the eastern part of the state. A friend of mine from Kansas City
>says she's never used the sound or heard it in Kansas City; I guess it's
>not heard in that part of Missouri.


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  3 20:12:57 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:12:57 EST
Subject: Zep (and hoagie!)
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.151257.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I'll try again.  Boy, do these Philly computers suck.
   From TAP & TAVERN, 25 January 1960, pg. 8, col. 4:

_Zep Sandwich Champ_
   HERE'S ANOTHER of the 20 Best Sandwiches of 1959, elected by the School of
Hotel Administration, Cornell University, in a contest sponsored in the food
service industry by Wheat Flour Institute and the National Restaurant
Association.
   ZEP SANDWICH ON BUN
   (makes 4 sandwiches)
4 Italian-style hearth baked buns*
4 thin slices Provolone cheese
8 thin slices salami
4 large tomato slices
Salad Oil
Crushed oregano
Dash salt
Crushed cherry peppers (optional)
   Split buns.  Place cheese on bottom half.  Add 2 slices salami, then onion
slice and tomato slice.  Sprinkle with (Col. 5--ed.) salad oil, oregano and
salt.  Add a teaspoon of crushed hot peppers, if desired.  Cover with bun
tops.
*Enriched hamburger buns may be substituted.

   From TAP & TAVERN, 29 August 1960, pg. 8, col. 1:

_Big Zep Sandwich_
_Brings Customers_
   ONE WAY TO STIMULATE business is to offer potential customers something
they find it hard to duplicate--either at home or any other place.  A case in
point is the license who introduced Zeps (or hoagies)--already popular in
many areas--in his neighborhood.
   He did it with a bang--featuring ten-inch Italian rolls, two kinds of
salami (three slices of cooked and three of hard salami), two slices of
Italian cheese, three slices of tomato (all generous portions), a large scoop
of shredded onions, and imported olive oil for a dressing.  Hot pepper is
optional.  The sandwich weighs more than ten ounces.
   A variation on the theme is a Zep featuring baked ham, or pork, selling
for slightly more.
   Not long after he started, the proprietor (WHO?--ed) was averaging more
than 100 Zeps a day, decidedly above average for the small community in which
he operates, and they have contributed greatly to his bar volume and profits.
   About 60 percent of his Zeps are for take-out, and this has increased his
sales of carry-home beer.  He frequently delivers the sandwiches to workers
in nearby plants and, as a result, builds up additional potential volume in
bar sales.
   Whether it's the Zep or something entirely different, introducing
something new in your area of operations is a sure key to profits.

(Check "hoagie" in DARE.  What does DARE have on Zep?  Isn't their motto "On
to Z"?--ed.)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  3 20:30:35 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:30:35 EST
Subject: Fwd: jawn"
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.153035.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I thought someone on the ADS-L might know the answer to this.
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From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Fri Nov  3 20:33:33 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:33:33 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20001103115329.00c776e0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.153333.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The actor's name is Emily Proctor, and I've noticed the interesting accent
that she brings to the role.  It's as if she's stretching out those vowels
in the words she means to emphasize, which is not a bad reproduction of some
of the speech patterns of folks that live here in NC.  But it does have a
Valley Girl bent to it that seems a touch odd to these southern ears.

bob

> From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:53:34 -0500
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: fronted /oU/
>
> It's also in southern and southeastern Ohio, where I hear it mainly in mid-
> and older people, so it's been around a long time in the South
> Midland.  It's not the same as Valley Girl fronting, at least not that of
> my southern Cal VG grad student, nor is it quite the same as in RP, but
> it's close.  I forget who plays Ainsley; could she be doing a poor
> imitation of NC and/or private school vowels?


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Fri Nov  3 22:04:19 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:04:19 -0600
Subject: Zep (and hoagie!)
In-Reply-To: <c5.ab3e54f.2734764e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.160419.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE has an Informant from Pottstown, PA who responded that she uses
"hoagie," but that "zep" can be seen on signs.


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Fri Nov  3 22:21:26 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:21:26 -0600
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.162126.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

Beverly's observation that fronting has been around a long time in her South
Midland area is interesting, because around where I live, which has a
somewhat similar English-speaking settlement history (albeit one that starts
about a generation later than in SE Ohio, c. 1830 vs. 1800 + or -)
/oU/ fronting, while common among rural speakers, seems to have begun only
in those born after WWII.  (BTW, these communities are located in W. ILL
about 100 mi. due N of ST. Louis, about halfway between Peoria and
Burlington, IA.)
Case I:  Women from one family in LaHarpe, IL: (Name, DOB, %ow fronting on
tape)
Olive 1898 0
Anne 1908  0
Maryanne 1933 0
Diane        1951 56%  (n/n=5/9)
Kate          1956  56%  5/9
Interviewed 1978-80

Case 2: Women from one family, Industry, IL
Nancy 1900 17% (2/12)
Donne  1935   0% (0/7)
Melinda 1961  75% (6/8)

Case 3:  Students at Industry High School, interviewed 1993
Brandy, 1978, 13%
Colleen, 1979, 67%
Cassie,   1980, 33%
Kelly       1980 66%
Carrie     1981  16%   (These students were all reading a set passage while
their English teacher watched.  The families above (case 1 and 2) were free
conversations recorded by a family member)

Attached are ow fronting scores recorded by HS and college students around
LaHarpe IL in the mid 90s.  These were taped by students in my linguistics
classes, usually peers.

Tim

----- Original Message -----
From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: fronted /oU/


> It's also in southern and southeastern Ohio, where I hear it mainly in
mid-
> and older people, so it's been around a long time in the South
> Midland.  It's not the same as Valley Girl fronting, at least not that of
> my southern Cal VG grad student, nor is it quite the same as in RP, but
> it's close.  I forget who plays Ainsley; could she be doing a poor
> imitation of NC and/or private school vowels?
>
> At 07:10 AM 11/3/00 -0500, you wrote:
> >I've heard that fronted /oU/ sound in several dialects. It's the sound
> >used in standard British speech. In America, I've heard it in southern
> >New Jersey, Philadelphia and Baltimore. I've also heard it in West
> >Virginia, from a 30-year-old or so contestant on "Who Wants to Be a
> >Millionaire." His parents, though, used the General American /oU/. DARE
> >says that it's a Philadelphia/Baltimore/Pittsburgh/eastern North Carolina
> >feature that has been spreading; maybe it has been spreading in West
> >Virginia. Ainsley is supposed to be from North Carolina; she could be
> >from the eastern part of the state. A friend of mine from Kansas City
> >says she's never used the sound or heard it in Kansas City; I guess it's
> >not heard in that part of Missouri.
>
>
> _____________________________________________
> Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
> Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
> Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
> http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm
>
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov  4 03:02:52 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:02:52 EST
Subject: Cappuccino (and Mulligan)
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.220252.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Patrick Murphy moved to San Francisco in 1949, and he wrote about
"Cappuccino."  It's similar stuff to what I had posted here before.
    "Mulligan" is listed in the same column and is thrown in for OED "M"
people.

28 March 1949, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by Patrick Murphy," pg. 15,
col. 1:

    An unusual libation but one which you may hear about now and then, and
that you'll certainly hear "on cal." in a strictly provincial Italian
neighborhood in any large U.S.A. city, is Cappuccino.  It is pronounced
'cah-poo-cheen' oe' and is spelled variously, which means that we aren't
certain our spelling of it is correct.
   Places which feature Cappuccino can serve the drink thanks to a specially
installed steam generating device which sits on the backbar and resembles in
all respect the regular old-fashioned coffee urn.  It's a gadget which is a
necessary part of the true drink, hence one reason you'll seldom find the
drink mentioned outside of a specialized bistro.
   To make the mixture, the bartender takes about a level teaspoon of ground
chocolate, mixes this with a little milk to form a chocolate paste, and does
the mixing right in the glass in which it is to be served.  This is very
often a stem goblet of 5-6 ounce capacity, resembling a hot toddy glass.
Once the chocolate is mixed, the drink is put under the spigot of the urn we
mentioned, and a specially designed (we think) flow of steam is introduced,
making a hot drink that at the same time thoroughly mixes with the milk and
the chocolate.  Finally, a shot of brandy is added, and the drink is placed
before the patron with a sugar bowl on the side, in the event he wants to
sweeten it up.
   We list it "for the record."  You'll probably not get a call for it, but
in the event you do, that's the pitch.
   (...)
_MULLIGAN_
   To that Penna. reader who asked about "mulligan"--we're still working on
sources for a really authoritative answer, recipe and all.  West Coast
bartenders, by the way, know nothing about the mixture, as contrasted to
Eastern barmen, who work with draft beer.

18 April 1949, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by Patrick Murphy," pg. 8,
col. 1:

_CAPPUCCINO_
   A few weeks ago this column mentioned Cappuccino--a new drink to us and
one which we first came upon in the sizeable Italian colony of San Francisco.
 The drink, as we told you, is made by mixing chocolate powder with milk, by
placing this under a device which resembles a large coffee urn, and by
injecting live steam into the drink via said device.  The shot of brandy (or
rum or whiskey) is then added.
   We have continued our researches into the matter and this week met up with
the actual inventor of Cappuccino, who gave us the full and complete story.
He is Fred Landi, proprietor of La Tosca, a quality restaurant located on San
Francisco's Bohemian Columbus Ave.  The La Tosca boasts, in the way or
murals, two scenes from the opera "La Tosca," and between these huge pictures
is a portrait of the composer himself, Giacomo Puccini (b. 1858, d. 1924).
On an opposite wall hang photo murals of the Colisseum at Rome, the Appian
Way and other landmarks of that great city.  Underneath this is a backbar
sign which announces that this is the original home of Cappuccino, that it is
copyrighted (The other article said "patented"--ed.), and that copyright
protection is assured the owner.  This last was big news to us, for until
that moment we had assumed that the word was a general term, like "cocktail,"
or "highball" or "julep."  Not so, Mr. Landi assured us.
  . . .
_PROCEDURE_
   It seems that back in 1937 Mr. Landi ordered from Italy an Italian coffee
urn which produces "Cafe Expresso."  In this type of drink the grounds are
put right into the urn for each serving, the steam then goes through them and
more or less instanter a piping cup of jet black coffee is served, there
having been no escape whatsoever of flavor.  Cafe Expresso is variously
spelled (one club in San Francisco merely calls it "Express Coffee," and then
adds "Royal" for the shot that usually goes into the potation), and is a
nationally known Italian drink.
   Mr. Landi figured that, so long as the Cafe Expresso machine was on the
premises, he would popularize a chocolate drink, too.  Casting about for a
suitable name, it occurred to him that Benedictine, with its monastic
trademark, was a novel enough approach to capture public attention.  He also
noted that the gowns of Capuchin monks were chocolate colored in their hooded
austerity.  Hence, he reasoned, why not call the hot chocolate drink
"Cappuccino," after the hooded monks of the Franciscan order, particularly
(Col. 2--ed.) after the color of their robes.
   The name once established, Mr. Landi had it copyrighted.  (I checked
patents, but not copyrights.  I'll go to DC to check it out--ed.)  It has
since "caught on" very much here in San Francisco, so much so that we for one
were led to believe it was a general term for a drink, not suspecting that it
was a copyrighted private label.  Similar names in the trade which are
privately owned, and which are often mistaken for general titles, include the
Bacardi Cocktail, and the Sazerac Cocktail and Pisco Punch, to name but
three.  Cappuccino is a member of this privately owned classification, and we
are pleased to be able to set the facts straight for the mixologists in the
audience.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Nov  4 03:20:06 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:20:06 -0500
Subject: Fwd: jawn"
In-Reply-To: <38.d61db11.27347a6b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.222006.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... I ran across the word 'jawn', which
>according to government witnesses could mean 'thing' or just about any
>other noun.  Does anyone have any information about this word.  Is there
>any possibility it comes from Jamaican creole?

Probably someone else can do better; I'm only very faintly familiar with
this word myself, and I don't find it in my conventional reference books.

I'm pretty sure this is originally a variant of "John".

A quick Web search gives the following.

(1) Simply a variant spelling of "John": used as a 'cute' 'handle'/nickname
by persons presumably named John, and apparently also when denoting a
pronunciation or dialect (i.e., in reproducing the speech of someone who
says /dZOn/ as opposed to /dZan/, I think).

(2) [Nonspecific noun], = 'thing', = 'item': not necessarily a tangible
object (apparently stands in for 'discussion topic', 'musical passage',
'picture', etc.).    [From 'john' = 'joe'/'average/unspecified/anonymous man'?]

(3) [Nonspecific noun], = 'material', = 'stuff', = 'shit' (in the general
sense of 'stuff').    [Uncountable version of (2)]

(4) Marijuana cigarette: = 'joint'.    [In this sense, I presume 'jawn' =
'john' < 'J.' < 'joint'. {I think card-players' 'john' < 'J' < 'jack' is
comparable}]

(5) [predicate, with "the"] [Something] fine, superlative, pleasurable,
etc.: "it's the jawn" = "it's the cat's meow/pajamas/ass", "it's the
greatest".    [Possibly from (2), like "it's (just) the thing"? Or from
(4), a parallel with 'dope' = 'cool'/'rad'?]

Web references:

http://wiretap.area.com/Gopher/Library/Misc/slang.txt

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/features/nomsayin.htm

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/6449/dictionary_j.htm

[Another word with the same spelling: "jawn" = variant of "yawn".]

-- Doug Wilson


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Nov  4 04:04:40 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 20:04:40 -0800
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.200440.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

tim frazer reports fronted /oU/ turning up in the south midlands only
in post-ww2 generations.  this is my experience, though i would have
said even later than that.  when melanie lusk and i taught a
dialectology course at ohio state in 1980, one of our students did a
pilot study on a few vowel variables in ohio, O among them.  she found
a sharp distinction between her younger northern ohio (cleveland,
toledo, akron/canton) urban speakers (who had fronted variants)
and everybody else (who didn't).  twenty years ago, we weren't hearing
the fronted variants in the ohio part of the south midlands, even
from people born around 1960.

fronted variants for the young urban northern midlands speakers were
*very* high-frequency, especially in accented words.

(my own variety includes some fronted variants in accented words, at
least for a few lexical items, in particular NOSE and ROSE.  this
is presumably a spread west and into the suburban/rural areas of
eastern pennsylvania from philadelphia - in the 1940s and '50s.)

i'm away from my library right now, but i believe that the berkeley
survey (a decade or so back) of younger california speakers showed
very high frequencies of fronted variants (categorical for some
speakers) in its subjects, especially female ones.

i'm sort of dubious about an RP origin for the u.s. fronting(s).  it
could just be that the fronting is a phonetically natural fortition,
or strengthening (which would predict its predilection for appearing
in already strong, in particular accented, positions).  it's something
that could have appeared independently in several locations - in
southern england, in the middle atlantic region of the u.s., in the
southeast u.s., and in california.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov  4 04:50:21 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:50:21 EST
Subject: TAP & TAVERN tidbits
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.235021.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I checked TAP & TAVERN for 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, and then 1959, 1960,
1961, and 1962.  Patrick Murphy wrote "The Barman's Corner" column (and I was
anxious to see the rest of it, since BUCKEYE TAVERN holdings end in 1948) for
1948-1951.
   For the second runs of years that I looked at (1959-1962), "The Barman's
Corner" column was written by James E. Hickey (editor of the BUCKEYE TAVERN).

HAPPY HOUR--I didn't see the "Happy Hour" from 1959-1962.  The TAP & TAVERN,
25 April 1960, pg. 20, col. 5, headline is: "'101 Ideas' Made Available For
Tavern Month."  I'll have to check out the NLBA NEWS by the National Licensed
Beverage Association.  "Happy Hour" is probably in their house organ.

20 September 1948, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by Patrick Murphy," pg.
13, col. 4:
   What is called a "chaser" or a "rinse" or a "mix" in many parts of the
country is called a "back" in at least some bars of Colorado.  For instance,
a "rye and water back" or a "rum and a sweet soda back" is, in the first
instance, a drink of rye, with a glass of plain water (and a cube of ice) on
the side.  In the second instance, it's a drink of light rum with the sweet
soda which we have found to be much more popular here than in Ohio,
Pennsylvania and New York.  It's a slang term, this "back," and we aren't too
sure it's used border to border, but at least it is something new and
different for your notebook.
   A "money-coke," when called in at some bars, referes to a coke which is
being sold on its own--not a coke to be used as a mixer or as a rinse.
Again, this may be merely a localized expression, but it does have some
currency here.
_"KANSAS HIGHBALLS"_
   There are some "Kansas highballs" to be heard of.  They take the form of a
plain water drink, mixed with a shot of bourbon, gin, or scotch, as the case
may be.  A true Kansas highball would seem to be a duplicate of the Croton
highball which was on call in pre-Prohibition days in New York City.

22 November 1948, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by Patrick Murphy," pg.
9, col. 2--All across Nevada, in the far-spaced towns, that is, signs reading
"Gaming" are posted prominently on the exterior of practicially all bars.
The word should read "gambling," but there's a more subtle sound to "gaming"
and it is unanimous.  The word is probably prescribed by Nevada licensing
statute.

17 January 1949, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by Patrick Murphy," pg.
7, col. 3--"In the year 1918 he returned to Havana and got a job as bartender
at a cafe named 'Greasy Spoon.'"  (Story of Jose Abeal, or "Sloppy Joe."
That place promoted the Mary Pickford Cocktail, among others--ed.)

5 December 1949, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by Patrick Murphy," pg.
17, col. 3--And restaurant-wise, we found one, once upon a time, plastered on
the wall along with "Mary had a little lamb, what'll you have?" and other
oldies, which we always will treasure as a kind of bonded wry: "IF YOU'RE SO
SMART--WHY AIN'T YOU RICH?"

8 January 1960, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by James E. Hickey," pg.
9, col. 1--(1-8 suggested etymologies of "cocktail.")

22 February 1960, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by James E. Hickey," pg.
5, col. 1--(9-18 suggested etymologies of "cocktail.")

13 June 1960, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by James Hickey," pg. 4,
col. 1--RECIPE: Now firmly established in the Southwest is the Margarita
Cocktail, often Americanized to Margaret Cocktail.  No doubt it will
eventually go coast to coast.  Here's how.  (Recipe follows, but no
etymology--ed.)

20 June 1960, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by James Hickey," pg. 4,
col. 3--A fountain filled with Gimlets, yours for the dipping, featured a
recent "come with toga" Roman party on the same W. Coast recently.  (Toga
Party!  Toga!  Toga!--ed.)

11 July 1960, TAP & TAVERN, pg. 8, col. 1:
(...)
_Famed Restaurant_
_Launched "Pink Lady"_
   SERVICE to the customers is vital--and it takes many forms.
   At the famed Miller Brothers Restaurant, 119 West Fayette st., in
Baltimore...
   (Col. 3--ed.)
   Among Mrs. Miller's vivid recollections is an account of the appearance in
Baltimore of a stock company playing something entitled "The Pink Lady."  It
was in honor of that show of by-gone days that the bartender at Miller
Brothers Restaurant invented a drink given the same name which has long since
become a standard drink in every bartender's lexicon from coast-to-coast.

10 October 1960, TAP & TAVERN, pg. 5, col. 2:
_"Tell You What I'm Gonna Do--"_
_Sid Stone to Announce_
_Commercials for Ortlieb_
   (...)  Sid Stone will be remembered by the TV audience for his familiar
opening, "Tell you what I'm gonna do for you."  Stone was with Milton Berle
on the Texaco Show four consecutive years.

14 November 1960, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by James E. Hickey," pg.
9, col. 5--Dr. Bauer of the A.M.A. who conducts a syndicated newspaper
column, has this month warned teen-agers against "glue-sniffing" for kicks.
Seems the teen-agers buy plastic cement, park themselves in a car and sniff a
handkerchief impregnated with this substance.  Effects can send the
experimenter to mental hospital if habit gets chronic.  (OED 1963
"glue-sniffing"--ed.)

24 April 1961, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by James E. Hickey," pg.
16, col. 3--THE BLOODY MARY seems here to stay.  (...)  By the way, a
_Sangrita_ is simply a "Bloody Mary," substituting tequila for vodka.
"Tequila Sangrita" is the full name of the drink, and this translates into
English as "Bloody Tequila," the which is your recipe clue.  (No Bloody Mary
etymology is given--ed.)

3 July 1961, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by James E. Hickey," pg. 9,
col. 2--BLOODY MARIA is a Bloody Mary but with a light rum substituted for
vodka, say the Ronrico people, who are plugging this new twist with ads in
Life.  Punch line is like so: "Anything Bloody Mary can do, Maria can do
better."  Like vodka, this leaves me breathless.


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Sat Nov  4 10:17:29 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 02:17:29 -0800
Subject: "mixed ale"?
In-Reply-To: <002601c045c3$a1bcfb30$01dea8c0@localnet.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.021729.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I forwarded the question to a friend who I thought might know
something.  (For one thing, he's done a great deal of research into
old English drinking songs)  Here was his reply.

>I have not the clue of a Dutchman.  Possibly it refers to ale fortified with
>strong spirits, like gin.   Or, another possibility, an ale made up of the
>lees left by the beer engines as they exhausted the cellared kegs, poured
>off into a common butt as the kegs were switched.
>
>Just educated guesses however.   Feel free to pass them along at their face
>(nil) value....


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Nov  4 17:28:53 2000
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 09:28:53 -0800
Subject: NADS 32.3
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.092853.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi Allan,
I have a new e-mail address:
margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu

Thanks,
Margaret Lee


--- AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:
> This afternoon (Nov. 2) the "September" issue of the
> Newsletter of the
> American Dialect Society at last entered the
> mailstream. It goes first class
> in the U.S. and by air elsewhere, so ADS members
> should get their copies
> within a few days.
>
> For the past week you've also been able to read it
> via PDF at the ADS
> website. Now you'll have a copy that can stay with
> you even if the lights go
> out.
>
> The next issue is intended for January, shortly
> after our annual meeting; and
> with the help of a capable new student assistant, I
> think I'll be able to get
> back on schedule with that one. Meanwhile, thanks
> for your patience with
> this; and please send me your news, address
> corrections, etc. - Allan Metcalf


=====
Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Associate Professor - English and Linguistics
& University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
757-727-5769 (voice); 757-727-5421 (fax); 757-851-5773(home)
e-mail:  mlee303 at yahoo.com   or   margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov  4 17:59:40 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 12:59:40 EST
Subject: Smeargate; Lifestyle Dining; Safire Watch
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.125940.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SMEARGATE

   Saturday's NEW YORK POST calls the recent Bush DUI conviction (24 years
ago, coming out just now) as "SMEARGATE."
   "November Surprise" and "Pearl Harbor Politics" have also been used.

--------------------------------------------------------
LIFESTYLE DINING

   From the NEW YORK OBSERVER, 6 November 2000, pg. 24, col. 3:

_Is Starck Raving Mad?_
_Introducing "Lifestyle Dining"_
(...)  According to the press release, Hudson Cafeteria represents "the next
generation of Lifestyle Dining."  The rooms' centerpiece is an open kitchen
surrounded by a dining counter over which hang stained-glass pictures of the
backs of people's heads emerging from flames.  It's just the place for a
Black Mass.  I'm not exactly sure what "Lifestyle Dining" means, though one
suspects  it has something to do with the fact that Philippe Starck designed
the space.  I imagine the concept includes loud music so that conversation
has to be conducted by shouting.  It also means that the cuisine (much of it
similar to that of Mr. Ducasse's Spoon, slated to replace "44" in the
Royalton) is eclectic, international and tongue-in-cheek, from turkey meat
loaf to chop suey and cassoulet.

--------------------------------------------------------
WILLIAM SAFIRE WATCH (continuing feature)

   Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES, again, does not publish my letter to the editor.
   My corrections (that I sent a week ago) have not even been acknowledged.


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Sat Nov  4 18:45:25 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 12:45:25 -0600
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.124525.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

Labov's diagram in Eckert "New Ways. . . ." (1991:23) reports fronting
ofboth /uw/ and /ow/ as characteristic of the southern vowel shift, as does
Tim Habick in the same volume.

----- Original Message -----
From: Arnold Zwicky <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: fronted /oU/


> tim frazer reports fronted /oU/ turning up in the south midlands only
> in post-ww2 generations.  this is my experience, though i would have
> said even later than that.  when melanie lusk and i taught a
> dialectology course at ohio state in 1980, one of our students did a
> pilot study on a few vowel variables in ohio, O among them.  she found
> a sharp distinction between her younger northern ohio (cleveland,
> toledo, akron/canton) urban speakers (who had fronted variants)
> and everybody else (who didn't).  twenty years ago, we weren't hearing
> the fronted variants in the ohio part of the south midlands, even
> from people born around 1960.
>
> fronted variants for the young urban northern midlands speakers were
> *very* high-frequency, especially in accented words.
>
> (my own variety includes some fronted variants in accented words, at
> least for a few lexical items, in particular NOSE and ROSE.  this
> is presumably a spread west and into the suburban/rural areas of
> eastern pennsylvania from philadelphia - in the 1940s and '50s.)
>
> i'm away from my library right now, but i believe that the berkeley
> survey (a decade or so back) of younger california speakers showed
> very high frequencies of fronted variants (categorical for some
> speakers) in its subjects, especially female ones.
>
> i'm sort of dubious about an RP origin for the u.s. fronting(s).  it
> could just be that the fronting is a phonetically natural fortition,
> or strengthening (which would predict its predilection for appearing
> in already strong, in particular accented, positions).  it's something
> that could have appeared independently in several locations - in
> southern england, in the middle atlantic region of the u.s., in the
> southeast u.s., and in california.
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sat Nov  4 21:04:45 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:04:45 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
In-Reply-To: <003101c0468f$bc9198e0$0d060640@wiu.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.160445.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, and as I've said earlier and elsewhere, southern/southeastern Ohio
represents both the upward extension of the Southern Shift and the westward
spread of the West Penn/Pittsburgh vowels (see Hankey 1972, in the Raven
McDavid festschrift).  Someone cited West Virginia's vowel fronting also;
our eastern end of Ohio shares a lot of features with WV.  When I mentioned
"older people" though, I was citing from my 20-year perspective in
Ohio.  The very first sound that struck my ear when I came for my interview
at OU in 1980 was the fronting of /ow/--not in OU gownies, of course, but
in many then middle-aged townies (my landlady that year was 40-ish, which
would date her from the 1940s or a bit earlier).  I would guess that it has
spread through southern Indiana and Illinois in the period Tim mentions.

I agree with Arnold that RP is not the source but would also remind him of
the great differences between northern, central, and southern Ohio (as I'm
sure he knows).  Erik Thomas found the fronting in younger people in the
Columbus area, but his sites aren't really in southeastern Ohio, where the
feature has been around longer.  Most of our undergrads at OU are in fact
from northern and central Ohio, and they regularly notice, and mock, the
local speech of Athens County and environs--this is truly hillbilly and
"southern" country to them.

At 12:45 PM 11/4/00 -0600, you wrote:
>Labov's diagram in Eckert "New Ways. . . ." (1991:23) reports fronting
>ofboth /uw/ and /ow/ as characteristic of the southern vowel shift, as does
>Tim Habick in the same volume.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Arnold Zwicky <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:04 PM
>Subject: Re: fronted /oU/
>
>
> > tim frazer reports fronted /oU/ turning up in the south midlands only
> > in post-ww2 generations.  this is my experience, though i would have
> > said even later than that.  when melanie lusk and i taught a
> > dialectology course at ohio state in 1980, one of our students did a
> > pilot study on a few vowel variables in ohio, O among them.  she found
> > a sharp distinction between her younger northern ohio (cleveland,
> > toledo, akron/canton) urban speakers (who had fronted variants)
> > and everybody else (who didn't).  twenty years ago, we weren't hearing
> > the fronted variants in the ohio part of the south midlands, even
> > from people born around 1960.
> >
> > fronted variants for the young urban northern midlands speakers were
> > *very* high-frequency, especially in accented words.
> >
> > (my own variety includes some fronted variants in accented words, at
> > least for a few lexical items, in particular NOSE and ROSE.  this
> > is presumably a spread west and into the suburban/rural areas of
> > eastern pennsylvania from philadelphia - in the 1940s and '50s.)
> >
> > i'm away from my library right now, but i believe that the berkeley
> > survey (a decade or so back) of younger california speakers showed
> > very high frequencies of fronted variants (categorical for some
> > speakers) in its subjects, especially female ones.
> >
> > i'm sort of dubious about an RP origin for the u.s. fronting(s).  it
> > could just be that the fronting is a phonetically natural fortition,
> > or strengthening (which would predict its predilection for appearing
> > in already strong, in particular accented, positions).  it's something
> > that could have appeared independently in several locations - in
> > southern england, in the middle atlantic region of the u.s., in the
> > southeast u.s., and in california.
> >
> > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From faber at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sat Nov  4 21:18:39 2000
From: faber at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:18:39 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20001104154523.00cb5e70@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.161839.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beverly Flanigan said:
>Yes, and as I've said earlier and elsewhere, southern/southeastern Ohio
>represents both the upward extension of the Southern Shift and the westward
>spread of the West Penn/Pittsburgh vowels (see Hankey 1972, in the Raven
>McDavid festschrift).  Someone cited West Virginia's vowel fronting also;
>our eastern end of Ohio shares a lot of features with WV.  When I mentioned
>"older people" though, I was citing from my 20-year perspective in
>Ohio.  The very first sound that struck my ear when I came for my interview
>at OU in 1980 was the fronting of /ow/--not in OU gownies, of course, but
>in many then middle-aged townies (my landlady that year was 40-ish, which
>would date her from the 1940s or a bit earlier).  I would guess that it has
>spread through southern Indiana and Illinois in the period Tim mentions.

Yup...we had a speaker at the lab a few weeks ago whose phonology was so
interesting that I almost stopped paying attention to the content of her
talk. She had extremely northern (but not Northern Cities) tense /ae/,
along with nearly monophthongal /aI/ (as well as some other more southern
features). It turned out she's from Cincinnati (I asked), and she
volunteered that she grew up with double modals as well. I didn't notice
/uw/ and /ow/ fronting particularly, but that might be because it's pretty
common to hear fronted vowels, especially /ow/, here in Connecticut. I have
formant plots from CT college students for which /ow/ is roughly [EU]; I
don't know if that's the sort of variant that started this thread, though.
--
Alice Faber                                       tel. (203) 865-6163
Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
270 Crown St                                   faber at haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511                               afaber at wesleyan.edu


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sat Nov  4 21:56:35 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:56:35 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
In-Reply-To: <a04330103b62a2c8d3daf@[208.58.249.43]>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.165635.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:18 PM 11/4/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Beverly Flanigan said:
> >Yes, and as I've said earlier and elsewhere, southern/southeastern Ohio
> >represents both the upward extension of the Southern Shift and the westward
> >spread of the West Penn/Pittsburgh vowels (see Hankey 1972, in the Raven
> >McDavid festschrift).  Someone cited West Virginia's vowel fronting also;
> >our eastern end of Ohio shares a lot of features with WV.  When I mentioned
> >"older people" though, I was citing from my 20-year perspective in
> >Ohio.  The very first sound that struck my ear when I came for my interview
> >at OU in 1980 was the fronting of /ow/--not in OU gownies, of course, but
> >in many then middle-aged townies (my landlady that year was 40-ish, which
> >would date her from the 1940s or a bit earlier).  I would guess that it has
> >spread through southern Indiana and Illinois in the period Tim mentions.
>
>Yup...we had a speaker at the lab a few weeks ago whose phonology was so
>interesting that I almost stopped paying attention to the content of her
>talk. She had extremely northern (but not Northern Cities) tense /ae/,
>along with nearly monophthongal /aI/ (as well as some other more southern
>features). It turned out she's from Cincinnati (I asked), and she
>volunteered that she grew up with double modals as well. I didn't notice
>/uw/ and /ow/ fronting particularly, but that might be because it's pretty
>common to hear fronted vowels, especially /ow/, here in Connecticut. I have
>formant plots from CT college students for which /ow/ is roughly [EU]; I
>don't know if that's the sort of variant that started this thread, though.
>--
>Alice Faber                                       tel. (203) 865-6163
>Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
>270 Crown St                                   faber at haskins.yale.edu
>New Haven, CT 06511                               afaber at wesleyan.edu

The Cincinnati citation is particularly interesting, since some researchers
have suggested that Cinci is an "island" that doesn't share South Midland
or Southern features (just as some say Pittsburgh is "unique," when my
regional informants know it isn't).  As a large city, it of course receives
many inputs, but a large substratum consists of South Midland speakers,
including both earlier generations and new in-migrants from further
South.  My students tell me there are many neighborhoods that are
identifiably Appalachian or Southern, and they are not surprised at all
when I group it with South, not North, Midland (pace Carver); the
(traditional) Cincinnati area is not like the (traditional) Columbus area.
If anyone remembers the Cincinnati woman in "American Tongues," you'll note
both her vowel fronting and her (slight) monophthongizing.  Yes, the /EU/
sound is what we're talking about.  And by the way, I heard my first clear
double modal from an Athenian just the other day--"might could"!

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Sat Nov  4 22:08:04 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:08:04 -0600
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.160804.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

All these examples of /ow/ fronting raise some interesting questions.
1.  Is it a  pandialectal movement?  It's in the southern shift, which is
usually account for as a chain shift in which various vowels diplace each
other, and Labov seems to include "southern England, New Zealand, South
Africa, the Middle Atlantic States, the Southern Mountain States, and both
the Upper and Lower South" in this shift.  But how does this account for
/ow/ fronting among California women, or, as Alice just mentioned, in CT (it
really blows my mind to hear it is there.  I had no idea).

2.  In some places it is socially motivated.  In Farmer City, IL, Tim Habick
reports /ow/ fronting as well as other features of the SS among the
"burnouts" in farmer City High School -- the outgroup, the dopers.  But this
would not account for its presence in SE OH. Or, I presume, CT, although
Alice didn't mention social characteristics.  (Any breakdowns of your
sample, Alice?)

3.  These feature has apparently been in W Pa, se OH, se PA (but not central
PA), n WV, and scattered around NJ and in NYC for a long time -- see Kurath
and McDavid's map 21 (Pronunciation of Eng in the Atl states, 1961, U of Ala
P).  The LAMSAS informants were mostly born in the nineteenth century,
sometimes before the Civil War, so Beveryly's landlady's pronunciation
probably represented 3rd generation use.  But if people came to my part of
Illinois from the same places as to SE OH, albeit 30 years later, why does
/ow/ fronting not show up earlier in Illinois?

4.  is this an Ulster Scots features?
----- Original Message -----
From: Alice Faber <faber at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: fronted /oU/


> Beverly Flanigan said:
> >Yes, and as I've said earlier and elsewhere, southern/southeastern Ohio
> >represents both the upward extension of the Southern Shift and the
westward
> >spread of the West Penn/Pittsburgh vowels (see Hankey 1972, in the Raven
> >McDavid festschrift).  Someone cited West Virginia's vowel fronting also;
> >our eastern end of Ohio shares a lot of features with WV.  When I
mentioned
> >"older people" though, I was citing from my 20-year perspective in
> >Ohio.  The very first sound that struck my ear when I came for my
interview
> >at OU in 1980 was the fronting of /ow/--not in OU gownies, of course, but
> >in many then middle-aged townies (my landlady that year was 40-ish, which
> >would date her from the 1940s or a bit earlier).  I would guess that it
has
> >spread through southern Indiana and Illinois in the period Tim mentions.
>
> Yup...we had a speaker at the lab a few weeks ago whose phonology was so
> interesting that I almost stopped paying attention to the content of her
> talk. She had extremely northern (but not Northern Cities) tense /ae/,
> along with nearly monophthongal /aI/ (as well as some other more southern
> features). It turned out she's from Cincinnati (I asked), and she
> volunteered that she grew up with double modals as well. I didn't notice
> /uw/ and /ow/ fronting particularly, but that might be because it's pretty
> common to hear fronted vowels, especially /ow/, here in Connecticut. I
have
> formant plots from CT college students for which /ow/ is roughly [EU]; I
> don't know if that's the sort of variant that started this thread, though.
> --
> Alice Faber                                       tel. (203) 865-6163
> Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
> 270 Crown St                                   faber at haskins.yale.edu
> New Haven, CT 06511                               afaber at wesleyan.edu


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Nov  4 22:29:53 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 14:29:53 -0800
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.142953.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

one of the miracles of this list is that every so often some
simple question about a matter that we probably thought to be
reasonably well understood sets off a discussion that unearths
all sorts of fresh issues.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From faber at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sat Nov  4 22:43:53 2000
From: faber at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 17:43:53 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.174353.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Tim Frazer said:

>All these examples of /ow/ fronting raise some interesting questions.
>1.  Is it a  pandialectal movement?  It's in the southern shift, which is
>usually account for as a chain shift in which various vowels diplace each
>other, and Labov seems to include "southern England, New Zealand, South
>Africa, the Middle Atlantic States, the Southern Mountain States, and both
>the Upper and Lower South" in this shift.  But how does this account for
>/ow/ fronting among California women, or, as Alice just mentioned, in CT (it
>really blows my mind to hear it is there.  I had no idea).

I'll have to check files in the lab to see which group of CT/NY area
speakers I've seen this in, since we've done several studies that are at
various stages of preparation. In no case was /ow/ fronting the focus;
mostly, we were just mapping out people's vowel spaces to provide context
for other phenomena.

What's definitely different from other frontings that I know of in the US
(Southern Shift, and the possibly related Utah stuff that Marianna Di Paolo
and I have looked at) is the relationship with /uw/. The canonical Southern
Shift has the fronting of /uw/ leading the fronting of /ow/; in the CT/NY
stuff that I have, there might be a wee bit of fronting of /uw/, but it's
not unusual for /ow/ to have more formant movement than any other vowel.

Because of the nature of these studies (monosyllables, with fixed
consonantal context), I can't say anything about context effects. Unlike
the fronting of /uw/ in this neck of the woods, the fronting of /ow/ isn't
facilitated in any way by a preceding dental consonant. If I had to guess,
I'd say the following consonant (if any) doesn't play a role, making this
different from the old New England checked-o in ROAD and COAT, which PEAS
(the only relevant book I have at home) says was quite limited, even back
then.
--
Alice Faber                                       tel. (203) 865-6163
Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
270 Crown St                                   faber at haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511                               afaber at wesleyan.edu


From lmedu at JPS.NET  Sat Nov  4 22:52:00 2000
From: lmedu at JPS.NET (Sharon Vaipae)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 15:52:00 -0700
Subject: one-eye pull (in Japan)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.155200.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>> And what about the finger pulling down the lower
>> eyelid?
>
>Mon oeil ... my eye ... same meaning of doubt or
>skepticism as in English.

During our eight years in Tochigi-ken, Niigata-ken, and Osaka-ku Japan, my
elementary/middle school school-age children both received from and gave it
to
Japanese school peers, meaning variously, "I don't care," "Who cares, so
what," and "Baka" (you are stupid), and sometimes as a joking greeting
between friends.  They did not know it before arriving in Japan at the ages
of three and five. My university students also used it occasionally with
each other, but always laughed as though it was intended humorously.

The closed rounded forefinger/thumb with remaining fingers slightly
elevated and curled signals "money" in Japan, although my students were
also familiar with its "O.K." U.S. meaning, as well as South American
meaning as a substitute for the middle finger. The last learned during in
the past ten years with the large influx of second and third-generation
Japanese from Brazil, Peru, Columbia, etc. to fulfill
kkk labor needs.

And while I'm here:
>At 10:35 PM 11/2/2000 -0500, "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> >wrote:
>probably you'll even see "He's so Staten Island" somewhere ....

I overheard one of my daughter's softball teammates huffily comment after
being thrown out at first base:  "I was SO there."

"Ghetto" is used by non-ghetto teens at my school as a descriptor of anything
that they look down upon or of which they disapprove, as in "her hair was
so ghetto," or "I would never go to the Mall looking so ghetto." Here "so" and
"ghetto" are frequently played together.

Warm regards, and always thoroughly correctable,

Sharon Vaipae
LMedu at jps.net
DR High School
Tracy, CA

Sharon Vaipae           "The truth shall make you odd."
LMedu at jps.net                          - Flannery O'Connor
Tracy, CA


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Sun Nov  5 00:00:53 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 18:00:53 -0600
Subject: so-ghetto
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.180053.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

Are the students Sharon mentions using "so ghetto" as kind of a negative
adj. African American or otherwise?
If not, I wonder if this is some more slang that started in AAVE and spread
to white middle class adolescents?


----- Original Message -----
From: Sharon Vaipae <lmedu at JPS.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: one-eye pull (in Japan)


> >> And what about the finger pulling down the lower
> >> eyelid?
> >
> >Mon oeil ... my eye ... same meaning of doubt or
> >skepticism as in English.
>
> During our eight years in Tochigi-ken, Niigata-ken, and Osaka-ku Japan, my
> elementary/middle school school-age children both received from and gave
it
> to
> Japanese school peers, meaning variously, "I don't care," "Who cares, so
> what," and "Baka" (you are stupid), and sometimes as a joking greeting
> between friends.  They did not know it before arriving in Japan at the
ages
> of three and five. My university students also used it occasionally with
> each other, but always laughed as though it was intended humorously.
>
> The closed rounded forefinger/thumb with remaining fingers slightly
> elevated and curled signals "money" in Japan, although my students were
> also familiar with its "O.K." U.S. meaning, as well as South American
> meaning as a substitute for the middle finger. The last learned during in
> the past ten years with the large influx of second and third-generation
> Japanese from Brazil, Peru, Columbia, etc. to fulfill
> kkk labor needs.
>
> And while I'm here:
> >At 10:35 PM 11/2/2000 -0500, "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> >wrote:
> >probably you'll even see "He's so Staten Island" somewhere ....
>
> I overheard one of my daughter's softball teammates huffily comment after
> being thrown out at first base:  "I was SO there."
>
> "Ghetto" is used by non-ghetto teens at my school as a descriptor of
anything
> that they look down upon or of which they disapprove, as in "her hair was
> so ghetto," or "I would never go to the Mall looking so ghetto." Here "so"
and
> "ghetto" are frequently played together.
>
> Warm regards, and always thoroughly correctable,
>
> Sharon Vaipae
> LMedu at jps.net
> DR High School
> Tracy, CA
>
> Sharon Vaipae           "The truth shall make you odd."
> LMedu at jps.net                          - Flannery O'Connor
> Tracy, CA
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov  4 23:59:45 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 18:59:45 EST
Subject: C-Level; Going North
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.185945.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

C-LEVEL

   Didn't the top used to be A-level, as in A-Number One?  Nothing beats a
pun (C-level/sea level), I suppose.  There are quite a few relevant hits on
the Dow Jones database.
   From the NEW YORK OBSERVER, 6 November 2000, pg. 30, col. 2 ad:

   _C-LEVEL_
   _JOB TITLES._
   _C-NOTE-FILLED_
   _WALLETS._
The C means clout.  And our readers have it.  52% of them hold C-level job
titles and the average overall net worth of $1.8 million dollars means
they're looking to buy. (...)
   _RED HERRING_
   RED HOT

(This thing is now twice a month.  Just what I need--more reading about the
internet, computers, and technology--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
GOING NORTH

   From the FINANCIAL TIMES, Weekend, Nov. 4-5, 2000, pg. 13, col. 2, in a
story (with a large photo you just can't miss) about the Bioform bra:

   It'll sell.  I've been wearing one for almost a week, and feeling very
Jayne Mansfield.  (In the trade, they call it "going north" rather than "east
and west.")

(Do they also say "going south"?--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov  5 01:39:12 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 20:39:12 EST
Subject: L.A. Free Press (1965-1966)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.203912.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I didn't get through all of 1966.  The NYPL microfilm room has no air
circulation, you know.
   THE POWER OF POSITIVE PESSIMISM by Howard Kandel was advertised in the L.
A. Free Press's "New Adult Humor Library."  This book had "Proverbs For Our
Times."  I'd like to see it, but not even the LOC has it.
   Here goes:

9 July 1965, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 2--It is manifested by precisely that apathy
and underlying terror that characterized us during what were so inaccurately
termed "the flaccid fifties"--a willingness to be led, bred by the
interaction of authoritarian education with a more and more inhuman
environment, and sustained by the mass media, consisting in part of the
increasing trivialisation of leisure and entertainment.

6 August 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1---HOT DAMN, VIET NAM. (...)  Well, futz,
putz or nuts... (...)  If Lyndon has one constant and unchanging public image
of himself that he is interested in maintaining, it might be summed up in the
words: Hot Damn!  I'm the Man!  And the Nigras are not the only ones who know
what is meant by "The Man."

20 August 1965, LAFP, pg. 4, col. 1---CHORUS:  Let's Get Whitey!...We are
going to put the fear of the Negro into these white people because they do
not have the fear of God...Burn, Baby, Burn.

3 September 1965, LAFP, pg. 1 headline--_Beatlemania!  Screeeaaam!_  (Rock &
roll at the Hollywood Bowl--ed.)

3 September 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--The rush on the marriage clerks to
beat the draft deadline proved that there are millions in America who, in act
if not in word, subscribe to the slogan: MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR.

3 September 1965,  LAFP, pg. 4, col. 3 cartoon--"_I knew it!_  You've been
watching so much t.v. lately you no longer know which way is up!"

10 September 1965, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 3--The set, the Greenwich Village
apartment of Nora, a "square-eyed 'highball'" ("What's that?" "Baby, if you
knew what it was, you wouldn't be a highball.")....

17 September 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--BETTER DEAD THAN RED: Those who say
better dead than red are probably right.  They WOULD be better dead than
red--and that may be our last best hope for survival.

17 September 1965, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 4--...VSP's--Very Special People....
(Also in this column is "Watts New, Pussycat?"--ed.)

24 September 1965, LAFP, pg. 1, col. 3--Psychedelic Art.

1 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 3, col. 3--Excuse me if I use this word, but we
have long since stopped calling them police officers.  We call them the
"gestapo."

8 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--THIS IS THE WAY IT IS, MAN.

8 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--...turned eighteen and is eligible to
get himself murdered or maimed for Freedom, Justice, Truth, and Mom's apple
pie.

8 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--"LICENSED TO KILL": That is how LeRoi
Jones describes the Great American Hero, the Private Eye, the International
Spy Good Guy, God's Own G.I. carrying the Gospel of God and Country into all
parts of the world on the business end of a bayonet.

15 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 4, col. 2--"Get that white M. F." (...) "Licensed
to Kill."  An excellent summary and description of our time.  "Culturally
depraved." (A phrase seen in a copy of NEWSWEEK.)

15 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 1--...the growers "are scared like
rabbits."  (Rabbits?--ed.)

22 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 1, col. 4--"TEACH-OUT."

22 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--...the Judeo-Christian God, also known
among the folksy as The Man Upstairs....

22 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 4--"Generation X"--For Big Tall Men Only!
(Is this  an ad?--ed.)

3 December 1965, LAFP, pg. 8, col. 1-5 ad for BUMPERSTICKERS!--START THE DAY
WITH A SMILE and get it over with (...) If you can read this, you're too
close.
10 December 1965, LAFP, pg. 3, col. 1--First City.  (New York--ed.)

21 January 1966, LAFP, pg. 3, col. 1--HUBERT HUMPHREY IS NOT A SELL-OUT
ARTIST: He never had anything to sell.

28 January 1966, LAFP, pg. 8, col. 1--LIFE LONG LEARNING.  (Free University
of California ad--ed.)

18 February 1966, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--LAST STAND OF AMERICAN GOTHIC: Not
since Amos 'n Andy went off the air has it been so hard for the red-blooded,
110% American to feel White Supreme and Top Banana in the land of the free
and the home of the Brave.

25 February 1966, LAFP, pg. 9, col. 2--(Review of IT'S FUN TO BE A POLLACK
and the origin of Polish jokes--ed.)

4 March 1966, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--THE NEW MISTER CLEAN:  FIrst it was FDR,
then it was Henry Wallace, then Stevenson, then JFK, then Hubert Humphrey,
and now it's beginning all over again with Bobby Kennedy.

4 March 1966, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 2--...the nuclear disarmament SANE symbol
roughly painted in white on a blue bakground were all simple and effective.
("Peace" symbol--ed.)


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Nov  5 03:09:44 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:09:44 CST
Subject: Double Modals [was fronted /oU/]
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.210944.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"and she volunteered that she grew up with double modals as well."

Oooooh. Double modals. A frisson goes up my spine, as somewhere, someplace,
in my English, these are *grammatical*.

There are rules: I oughta shoulda, shouldna oughta. I 'fess these are the
only active (but ruthlessly supressed) double modals in my vocabulary.

Positively, the sense is mostly emphatic, but there is a real sense of
obligation, but the thing to be done is something that will most likely not
be done, because you yourself don't want to do it.

Shouldna oughta is self-affirmed sin, a confession, something you admit you
should not have done.

I shouldna oughta posted this to ADS-list, in that everyone who reads it
knows this already.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Nov  5 03:23:24 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:23:24 CST
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.212324.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"And by the way, I heard my first clear  double modal from an Athenian just
the other day--"might could"!"

Does this mean 'I am willing to do it, provided I have the means and
motivation to do it'?

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Nov  5 05:31:45 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:31:45 -0700
Subject: /ow/ fronting
In-Reply-To: <39F9F77800093D24@deimos.email.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.223145.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I lived in Washington, D.C. in 1972-80, one of the most striking
things I noted (and even heard commented on) was the fronting of the first
element of the /ow/ in Baltimore-area speech. When people came on TV news
programs for interviews, you could easily spot those from the Baltimore
area by this feature. The onset in the diphthong had become a very schwa-
like sound, but the glide seemed fairly short and the effect was not at
all RP-like. It had, to use a very non-scientific impressionistic
reaction, a rather "soft" quality to it.
        I've heard something similar in Oklahoma as a rural pronunciation,
but the impressionistic effect is quite different.
        Arnold Zwicky commented on the naturalness of the change. While I
agree, and point to the parallel Scottish shift of /uw/ --> /iw/ (also
common after alveolars elsewhere), one could presumably argue that any
change to an adjacent position is natural, as happened in the Great Vowel
Shift (ignoring whether it was one or a disconnected set of shifts),
except here /ow/ raised to /uw/, rather than fronting. [/uw/, of course,
front-lowered to /@w/ and thence to /aw/ and further to /aew/ in a chain-
seqence.]

        Rudy


From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Sun Nov  5 13:22:04 2000
From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (TERRY IRONS)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 08:22:04 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20001104164300.00c99260@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.082204.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Current thinking seems to be thatthat the fronting of the back vowels is
more of a pandialectal phenom and not part of the Southern shift per se.  It
seems missing in draft parts of Labov's Atlas of North America.

A naive question:  What is th relation between this pattern of fronting
and the process of unrounding?  I notice considerable unrounding or
spread in the production of back vowels in these hereabout parts.



Virtually, Terry
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Nov  5 16:53:34 2000
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 08:53:34 -0800
Subject: Contacting Julie Sweetland
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.085334.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know the e-mail address for Julie
Sweetland who teaches (or did teach) at Goergetown
University?

=====
Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Associate Professor - English and Linguistics
& University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
757-727-5769 (voice);757-727-5421 (fax);757-851-5773(home)
e-mail:  mlee303 at yahoo.com   or   margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Nov  5 20:01:57 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 14:01:57 -0600
Subject: Cappuccino--a query
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.140157.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Barry Popik has presented various items indicating that  cappuccino
(both the coffee-drink and the name) were invented in San Francisco by Fred
Landi;  Landi reportedly made this invention in 1937 or 1938, and the first
written attestation is 1946.

        However, in a July 24, 2000 message to ADS-L, Jan Ivarsson cites
evidence from his Italian dictionary which says that cappuccino is
traceable to 1905.  If this date is accurate, Fred Landi  would be ruled
out as the inventor of cappuccino and its name, but he would at least be
left as the individual who introduced both to the U.S. Here is Ivarsson's
message:
>>
>>    My Italian dictionary (Sabatini-Coletti, Dizionario italiano  on
>>CD-ROM) says about "cappuccino": Bevanda a base di caffè espresso e
>>latte. Deriv. di  "cappuccino 1" per il colore simile a quello del
>>saio... a 1905 which means: Drink made up of café espresso and milk.
>>Derived from "cappuccino 1" (Capuchin monk clad in a brownish hood)
>>because of the color  similar to that of the hood... Known since 1905.
>>Thus it seems hardly probable that the drink was invented by  Mr. Landi
>>in 1938 San Francisco. Jan Ivarsson, Simrishamn,  Sweden
>>
        The question now arises: Are there any Italian dictionaries from
1905-1936 which actually attest "cappuccino" for the time of publication or
can specifically give an earlier citation?  Would anyone have access to
such dictionaries? And does anyone have access to an Italian etymological
dictionary which includes "cappuccino"?
        Any assistance would be much appreciated.

-----Gerald Cohen







gcohen at umr.edu


From sagehen at SLIC.COM  Sun Nov  5 20:55:35 2000
From: sagehen at SLIC.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 15:55:35 -0500
Subject: cappucino--a query
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.155535.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gerald Cohen writes:
>"cappuccino": Bevanda a base di caffè espresso e latte.<
This comports  better with my own recollection that the last time I was in
Italy, thirty years ago, cappuccino was a coffee/milk  drink.  I was
puzzled by the references to it as a chocolate concoction.
A. Murie


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sun Nov  5 21:06:05 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 16:06:05 -0500
Subject: double modals
In-Reply-To: <F24b0zrAXBirbThA9QR0000a718@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.160605.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not at all sure how to interpret double modals, since they're rare in
this area.  Bethany Dumas is the expert on them--can you help us, Bethany?

At 09:23 PM 11/4/00 -0600, you wrote:
>"And by the way, I heard my first clear  double modal from an Athenian just
>the other day--"might could"!"
>
>Does this mean 'I am willing to do it, provided I have the means and
>motivation to do it'?
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>http://profiles.msn.com.


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov  5 09:30:25 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:30:25 +0800
Subject: double modals (was: fronted /oU/)
In-Reply-To: <F24b0zrAXBirbThA9QR0000a718@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.173025.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"And by the way, I heard my first clear  double modal from an Athenian just
>the other day--"might could"!"
>
>Does this mean 'I am willing to do it, provided I have the means and
>motivation to do it'?
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
Actually, the "might" in this case is always (as far as I know)
epistemic, and could be replaced by the semantically equivalent
"maybe" or "perhaps".  "I might could do it" is basically equivalent
to "Perhaps I could do it".  In the double modal dialects I'm aware
of, epistemic "might" will typically if not always show up as the
first in a string of two or three modals.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov  5 09:34:12 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:34:12 +0800
Subject: Cappuccino--a query
In-Reply-To: <v03130300b62b682b9891@[131.151.64.135]>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.173412.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:01 PM -0600 11/5/00, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>         Barry Popik has presented various items indicating that  cappuccino
>(both the coffee-drink and the name) were invented in San Francisco by Fred
>Landi;  Landi reportedly made this invention in 1937 or 1938, and the first
>written attestation is 1946.
>
>         However, in a July 24, 2000 message to ADS-L, Jan Ivarsson cites
>evidence from his Italian dictionary which says that cappuccino is
>traceable to 1905.  If this date is accurate, Fred Landi  would be ruled
>out as the inventor of cappuccino and its name, but he would at least be
>left as the individual who introduced both to the U.S. Here is Ivarsson's
>message:
>>>
>>>     My Italian dictionary (Sabatini-Coletti, Dizionario italiano  on
>>>CD-ROM) says about "cappuccino": Bevanda a base di caffè espresso e
>>>latte. Deriv. di  "cappuccino 1" per il colore simile a quello del
>>>saio... a 1905 which means: Drink made up of café espresso and milk.
>>>Derived from "cappuccino 1" (Capuchin monk clad in a brownish hood)
>>>because of the color  similar to that of the hood... Known since 1905.
>>>Thus it seems hardly probable that the drink was invented by  Mr. Landi
>>>in 1938 San Francisco. Jan Ivarsson, Simrishamn,  Sweden
>>>
>         The question now arises: Are there any Italian dictionaries from
>1905-1936 which actually attest "cappuccino" for the time of publication or
>can specifically give an earlier citation?  Would anyone have access to
>such dictionaries? And does anyone have access to an Italian etymological
>dictionary which includes "cappuccino"?
>         Any assistance would be much appreciated.
>
>-----Gerald Cohen

as we've seen, there's also the weird morphing of cappuccino into a
chocolate-based drink in the early U.S. (S.F.) cites, before the
coffee version took over (again).

larry


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Sun Nov  5 23:42:36 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:42:36 -0600
Subject: /ow/ fronting
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.174236.0600.>

The Host(ess) of this week's highly over-rated Saturday Night Live used the vowel in
question.
DMLance

Rudolph C Troike wrote:

> When I lived in Washington, D.C. in 1972-80, one of the most striking
> things I noted (and even heard commented on) was the fronting of the first
> element of the /ow/ in Baltimore-area speech. When people came on TV news
> programs for interviews, you could easily spot those from the Baltimore
> area by this feature. The onset in the diphthong had become a very schwa-
> like sound, but the glide seemed fairly short and the effect was not at
> all RP-like. It had, to use a very non-scientific impressionistic
> reaction, a rather "soft" quality to it.
>         I've heard something similar in Oklahoma as a rural pronunciation,
> but the impressionistic effect is quite different.
>         Arnold Zwicky commented on the naturalness of the change. While I
> agree, and point to the parallel Scottish shift of /uw/ --> /iw/ (also
> common after alveolars elsewhere), one could presumably argue that any
> change to an adjacent position is natural, as happened in the Great Vowel
> Shift (ignoring whether it was one or a disconnected set of shifts),
> except here /ow/ raised to /uw/, rather than fronting. [/uw/, of course,
> front-lowered to /@w/ and thence to /aw/ and further to /aew/ in a chain-
> seqence.]
>
>         Rudy


From msjce1 at JUNO.COM  Sun Nov  5 22:59:42 2000
From: msjce1 at JUNO.COM (Jimmie C Ellis)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 14:59:42 -0800
Subject: Cappuccino--a query
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.145942.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It is also a variety of cabbage.


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Mon Nov  6 00:21:04 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 19:21:04 -0500
Subject: double modals
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20001105160430.00cc2310@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.192104.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

>I'm not at all sure how to interpret double modals, since they're rare in
>this area.  Bethany Dumas is the expert on them--can you help us, Bethany?

I'd like to respond, but cannot do so immediately.

Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  6 00:59:34 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 19:59:34 EST
Subject: Cappuccino--a query
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.195934.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    NYU has these dictionaries.

GRANDE DIZIONARIO ITALIANO DELL'USO (2000), UTET
_cappuccino_ (...)
3 s.m. (1905) bevanda calda a base di caffe e latte reso schiumoso dal vapore
prodotto dalla macchina del caffe espresso: _c. scuro_, con molto caffee; _c.
chiaro_, con poco caffe

GRANDE DIZIONARIO DELLA LINGUA ITALIANA (1961) by Salvatore Battaglia, Union
Tipografico-Editrice Torinese
_Cappuccino_ (...)
2. Sm. Caffe caldo mescolato con latter (cosi detto per il colore)

   I'm going to the Library of Congress and there are plenty of dictionaries
to check out, if I have the time.  A 1943 English-Italian soldier's
dictionary should be of interest.


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Nov  6 01:46:27 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:46:27 -0800
Subject: 1955 Seattle drinks (long)
In-Reply-To: <c5.ab3e54f.2734764e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.174627.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry Popik has probably unearthed all of these before, but I can't recall
a posting. These are all taken from a thin book about Seattle restaurants:
Speidel, William C. You can't eat Mount Rainier! (illustrated by Bob
Cram) Portland, Ore. : Binfords & Mort, 1955.
Several pages down there is a recipe of Cappuccino, or at least something
called a Cappuccino.

All of the restaurants are, or at least were in Seattle:

Deverso's
Catherine's Cocktail (Catherine of Deverso's)--1/2 jigger whiskey, 1 t
maraschino cherry juice, 1 1/2 jiggers Italian vermouth. Serve in a Gibson
glass garnish w/cherry

"Irving's 620 adds a zany touch to a dry martini ..."
Glacier Worm Cocktail--1 pt French vermouth, 3 pts gin, dash of orange
bitters, twist of lemon peel, piece of cooked macaroni ... "Irving's
garnish: draw a face at one end of the macaroni with an indelible pencil,
insert a bit of pimento for the tongue and curl the 'glacier worm' around
inside the glass" [N.B. Irving's 620 is no longer in business.--adm]

>From Warling's cocktail recipe from the Swedish liner Gripsholm
Jeanette special--1 1/4 oz Aquavit, 1/2 oz Cointreau, 2 oz lemon sour
mix w/cracked ice , strain into glass.

>From the Marine Room
Lady Olympic--1 oz vodka, 1/2 oz Cherry Herring, juice of 1/2 lime. mix in
electric mixer strain into cocktail glass.

>From Bob the bartender at Pancho's
Shortsnorter--3 dashes Triple Sec, 3 oz Jamaica rum, 1 oz bourbon. place
in an old fashioned glass over ice, add 7-Uo and juice of 1/4 lime, stir

>From the Plaid Piper
Tartan special--1/3 oz heavy cream, 1 t honey, 1 oz scotch. shake with
ice, strain into cocktail glass

>From Selandia [there are several Scandinavian theme resaurants, as one
might expect, and this drink is very similar to the one cited above
from Warling's--adm]
Three crown cocktail--3/4 oz Aquavit 3/4 oz Triple Sec juice of 1/2 lemon
shake, serve in frosted glass

The Ranch has
Evergreen tree topper--1 1/2 oz vodka, 1/2 oz creme de cocao, 1/2 oz lime
juice, green creme de menthe. use chimney glass filled with fine ice and
add above, fill with soda and top off with green creme de menthe, garnish
with cherry and orange, serve with straws.

Another from Pancho's
Flamingo--1 oz Kahlua, 1 oz sweet cream, 3/4 oz Chamberryzette, 3/4 oz
simple syrup. shake well w/cracked ice, strain into large fizz glass, top
with nutmeg

An original from The Colony "... as mixed by Art Sampson."
The Jaguar--2 oz Jamaica rum, 1/8 oz sweet port, 1/4 oz Cognac, 1/8 oz
sweet vermouth, 1/8 oz sloe gin, juice of 1 lime, 1/8 oz Cointreau, 1/8 oz
Creme de cacao, dash simple syrup, dash almond syrup. pour all into
frosted chimney glass filled with crushed ice, fill up with
champagne. topping--long sliver of fresh pineapple--four picks with a
cherry on each stuck into pineapple

>From El Gaucho
Pampas pipperoo--1 oz lemon juice, 1/4 oz grenadine, 1/2 oz orange juice,
1/2 oz light rum, 1/2 oz simple syrup. fill a 14 oz chimney glass 3/4 full
of fine ice and above ingred. add seltzer to almost fill then float 1/2 oz
demerara rum. take 1/2 lime shell (already squeezed) turn inside out, set
on top of the glass, pour in a little 151 proof Demerara rum and light.

>From Skipper's [not the present day Skipper's, I'm sure--adm]
Roof raiser--2 oz dark rum, 3/4 oz Passionola, 1/2 oz lemon juice, 1/2 oz
Curacao. blend with ice, put in Zombie glass over cracked ice, garnish
with pineapple cube, cherry and mint leaf

Harold's Charcoal Broiler
Sage 'n' sand desert cooler--1 oz brandy, 1/4 oz creme de menthe, orange
juice, lemon juice. put brandy and creme de menthe in a tall glass, fill
1/3 with lemon juice remainder with orange

Four Winds restaurant
Schooner--1/2 oz Ron Rico rum, 1/2 oz 151 proof rum, 2 oz port wine, 1 1/2
oz papaya juice, 1 oz sugar syrup, 1 oz lemon juice. squeeze juice of one
lime, add rest of ingredients and mix. pour over ice.

Not surprisingly from the Kalua Room:
Surf and sand (for 2)--3 oz orange juice, 3 oz lemon juice, 3 oz light
rum, 1 1/2 oz Orgeat syrup, 1/2 oz brandy, 1 1/2 scoops shaved ice. fill
large rum cup 3/4 full of chipped ice, mix and blend above ingred. pour
into bowl of ice and float gardenia on top.

Norselander has
Viking fog cutter--1 oz rum, 1/2 oz brandy, 1/2 oz gin, 2 oz lemon juice,
1 oz orange juice, 1/2 oz Orgeat, Aquavit float. shake all but
Aquvit. pour into 12 oz glass fill with cracked ice and float
Aquavit. serve with straws.

****under the section "Special Ambrosias" is the following:

"A most delightful drink which takes its name from the early Capuchin
monks. Rosellini's [legendary Seattle reataurant--adm] makes it with
special steam pressure equipment ...
Cappuccino
Milk, sweet chocolate or sweet cocao, liquor (either Rum, Brandy or
Bourbon). Put a teaspoon of sweet chocolate or sweet cocao in a cup or
special hot drink glass--pour 1 oz heated milk and stir. When chocolate or
cocoa is dissolved, fill cup 3/4 full of heated milk (not boiling). Then
add 1 oz favorite liquor"

Finally a drink by Peter Canlis [Canlis is another venerable Seattle
restaurant which is still in business--adm]
Sea breeze--Cognac, green creme de menthe, heavy cream, white creme de
cocao, handful of ice. blend rapidly in blender, serve in champagne glass.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  6 03:43:46 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:43:46 EST
Subject: E.V.O. (1968)
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.224346.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Thanks for the YOU CAN'T EAT MOUNT RAINIER (1955) book!  I had heard of
it, but hadn't read it!
   I went through the EAST VILLAGE OTHER for 1968.

March 22-28, 1968, EVO, pg. 10, col. 2 headline: NEW HOPE FOR THE RHYTHM
METHOD.  (Jazz article--ed.)

March 29-April 4, 1968, EVO, pg. 1, col. 2--WHEN THE MAN'S SHIT HITS THE
FAN--.

May 17, 1968, EVO, pg. 12, col. 1--"In His Guts, He Knows He's Nuts."

July 26, 1968, EVO, pg. 6, col. 3--STAR DRECK.  (Astrology column--ed.)

July 26, 1968, EVO, pg. 13, cols. 1-3 headline--"SISTER SADIE AND THE SONS OF
SAM."  (A play title.  David Berkowitz took this title at what date?--ed.)

August 2, 1968, EVO, pg. 13, col. 1--LSD FREAKOUTS.

September 20, 1968, EVO, pg. 2, col. 1--If each man or woman is to (pardon
me) "do his own thing," then some will necessarily have to conform while
others will be rebels.
("dipshit" is written sideways as a filler on this page--ed.)

September 20, 1968, EVO, pg. 11, col. 1--_You Are What You Eat_ is due to
open with a benefit for the American Indians. (...) YAWYE...

October 4, 1968, EVO, pg. 9 cartoon title--SHAKE IT BUT DON'T BREAK IT.  (The
cartoon shows--oh, never mind--ed.)

October 18, 1968, EVO, pg. 9 "BOOGER BUDDIES" cartoon--SPODIE ODIE!...SALAMI
MOMMY!

October 18, 1968, EVO, pg. 9 cartoon--A HONKY VISITS THE LOWER EAST SIDE AND
MAKES A DAMN FOOL OF HISSELF!!  (White man gives "peace" sign to black
people--ed.)  "HI!  PEACE, EVERYBODY!" "I LOVE YOU PEOPLE!" (Origin of "I
love you, man"?--ed.)

October 18, 1968, EVO, pg. 10 cartoon (NOT Robert Crumb--ed.)--"Oh Keep on
Trucking, Mamma."

October 18, 1968, EVO, pg. 14 "CUM COMICS" cartoon--"GETTIN' ANY LATELY?"
(...) "NICE GOIN' ACE!" (...) "FUCKIN' AY!!"

October 18, 1968, EVO, pg. 26, col. 1 ad for "MAN-TO-MAN INC."--HOW TO MEET
MR. RIGHT and STOP TRYING TO FIT A ROUND PEG INTO A SQUARE HOLE.

October 25, 1968, EVO, pg. 2, col. 2--When in doubt: PUNT!

October 25, 1968, EVO, pg. 12 cartoon--"HEY, TURDLE--WOT'S HOPPENIN'?"  (Said
by a rabbit to a turtle--ed.)(...) "FAR OUT!" (...) MAN, YER TOO MUCH!

November 15-21, 1968, EVO, pg. 2, col. 1--...And if you don't like it here
why don't you go to commie China or North Vietnam with all those slopeheads
or Russia??!!

November 22, 1968, EVO, pg. 11 cartoon:
NARD N' PAT
VISIT THE CITY OF
NEW YORK CITY.
   "WELL, KITTY-KAT, OL' PAL.  HERE WE ARE IN NOO-YAWK CITY!  TH' "BIG
APPLE," AS SOME CALL IT!"
   "APPLE SCHMAPPLE!  IT'S A CITY OF MORAL CORRUPTION!"

(This wasn't published, either, but as I had told William Safire for his "Big
Apple column," the late Convention & Visitors Bureau President Charles
Gillett deserves credit for re-popularizing the term in 1970-1971.  However,
before that, the 1960s jazz musicians had begun to bring "Big Apple" back.
See, also, the "Big Apple" reference in Kurt Vonnegut's SLAUGHTERHOUSE
FIVE--ed.)


From funex79 at SLONET.ORG  Mon Nov  6 04:14:00 2000
From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:14:00 -0800
Subject: cappucino--a query
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.201400.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A note to cappuccino discussants:

I have in front of me as I write this a somewhat worn glass ashtray
purloined  in a moment of drunken abandon from the Tosca Cafe on Columbus
Avenue in San Francisco, "HOME OF THE FAMOUS CAPPUCCINO." Beneath this are
the names Fred Landi and Ugo pieri. And yes the drink as made there was
chocolate with rum or brandy. I live in San Francisco for several months in
1948  and I remember having  it a number of times. In more recent years as
the "real" cappuccino has become  more popular and available I have often
wondered why it differed from my memory of what a cappuccino was. This
discussion has helped clear that for me.   Thanks.

J Foster

 "sagehen" <sagehen at SLIC.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: cappucino--a query


> Gerald Cohen writes:
> >"cappuccino": Bevanda a base di caffè espresso e latte.<
> This comports  better with my own recollection that the last time I was in
> Italy, thirty years ago, cappuccino was a coffee/milk  drink.  I was
> puzzled by the references to it as a chocolate concoction.
> A. Murie
>


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  6 09:01:36 2000
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 04:01:36 EST
Subject: double modals
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.040136.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've often heard expressions, such as "I may could get that done, "I might
can do it" or "He might could/would do it," which I interpret to mean, "There
is a possibility that the subject will (be able to do) something, but (s)he
won't know until (s)he makes the attempt/effort."  Thus, the sense of both
"might" and "could/would/can" is the epistemic, or logically probable, one
(might=probably; would=will ; could/can=have the ability to).  Compare these
to expressions which indicate a higher probability of an action's being
fulfilled or realized, such as the following:  "I could get that done,"  "I
can do it," and "I know he could/would [not past habitual]/will do it."
                            PAT


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Mon Nov  6 09:23:09 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 01:23:09 -0800
Subject: cappucino--a query
In-Reply-To: <001a01c047a7$fe803720$9ad972cf@funex79>
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.012309.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>A note to cappuccino discussants:
>
>I have in front of me as I write this a somewhat worn glass ashtray
>purloined  in a moment of drunken abandon from the Tosca Cafe on Columbus
Avenue in San Francisco, ..."

The first time I had cappuccino was in Israel in 1961.  It was made
with chocolate.  The next time was somewhere in the Village, it also
was made with chocolate.  The third time it was in Tosca - with
chocolate and alcohol (yum).  After that, in other places, no
chocolate.  I was confused, but it seemed that no place but Tosca
here made it with chocolate.  Sad.

Rima


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Mon Nov  6 15:55:32 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:55:32 -0500
Subject: double modals (was: fronted /oU/)
In-Reply-To: <p04320403b62ad892c7e3@[130.132.231.220]>
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.105532.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some observations from a lightly-edited paper from the past (from a
native double modal speaker):

I have mentioned that studies of Southern Mt.. English based on attested
forms have all concluded that double modal constructions are rare. Early
participant observers (Carr 1905, Randolph & Wilson 1953) reached the same
conclusion. However, the intuitions and reported experiences of recent
participant observers (ELgin, Dumas, Bailey and Montgomery) are
otherwise. Montgomery and I, in particular, agree that multiple modal
occurrence is at least occasional except when a tape recorder is running.

I am convinced on the basis of my participant observer experience in
northwest Arkansas and East Tennessee that the rarity of multiple modal
construction in Linguistic Atlas and sociolinguistic interviews is an
artifact of the nature and structure of such interviews, not of the
frequency of occurrence of the constructions in naturally occurring
conversations. Atlas interviews are highly item-oriented; sociolinguistic
interviews are heavily narrative-oriented. Multiple modals do not
naturally occur with frequency in item-oriented or narrative-oriented
conversational interaction. As Rickford 1973 points out, some
stigmatized forms are rare in sociolinguistic interviews "because the
semantic conditions which they are normally introduced to express may
occur rarely, if at all, in the course of a sociolinguistic
interview" (p. 163).  (See also Butters 1973.)

Rather, they occur in such discourse environments as the following:

A. Possibility, with respect to past action:
   10. We might could have gone if he had gotten tickets. (#20 on the handout)
B. Possibility, with respect to present state:
   11. They may still could be all right U. T. fans.  (#30 on the handout)
C. Possibility, with respect to future action:
   12. I might could go.  (#23 on the handout)
D. Mitigation of a directive:
   13. Might could be you'd want to take a look out your east window
        toward my rose bushes. (#13 on the handout)

A number of interesting questions have been raised by the
literature. Briefly, they are these:
1. What base constructions are used?
2. How do the constructions vary with respect to provenance, frequency,
        and acceptability?
3. How are tags and questions formed?
4. What is their structure? I.e., is the first element a modal or an
        adverb?
5. What is their significance?  I.e., are multiple modal constructions
        anything more than lexical variants?

We have in the literature partial, sometimes conflicting answers to all
these questions. None of the answers are based upon a large corpus of
attested forms. The most interesting question of all seems to me to be the
following: How have these constructions spread in English and how is it
that their greatest frequency today appears to be in Southern and
AAVE varieties?

Historically, the double modals appear to have developed from Middle
English. Many constructions are reported from Scottish [?] and other
varieties of Northern British English. The settlement history of the
American south suggests, as Guy Bailey has pointed out to me recently,
that the construction spread from South Midland into Southern English,
possibly thence into AAVE and Atlantic creoles.

If this is true, than it is mysterious that many more attested examples
are reported for the lower south and the creoles, including Black English.

My tentative hypothesis for the present state of affairs is this: As
double modals developed in early Modern English, they grammaticalized and
developed a purely lexical function; i.e., they served as lexical variants
of phrases like "May be I can" or "I might be able to."  They retained
that lexical function, but as they spread into the lower south, they came
to function as politeness markers more than as simple lexical variants.

Bethany


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Nov  6 16:07:51 2000
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:07:51 -0500
Subject: Cappuccino--a query
In-Reply-To: <v03130300b62b682b9891@[131.151.64.135]>
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.110751.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not sure how much this helps, but here goes.

The Grande dizionario della lingua italiana offers the following
quotation from Alfredo Panzini's Dizionario moderno delle parole
che non si trovano nei dizionari comuni, nuovamente compilata da
B. Migliorini,  Milano, 1950 (primiera ed. originale, 1905):

'Cappuccino', caffe nero mescolato con poco latte.  Voce dell'uso,
derivata probabilmente dal colore simile alla tonaca del frate
cappuccino.

The problem is, of course, that it's impossible to tell whether the
quotation appeared in the original edition or only in Migliorini's
revision.  Would anyone have a 1905 Panzini handy?

Joanne Despres
Merriam-Webster


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov  6 17:33:39 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 12:33:39 -0500
Subject: Cappuccino--a query
In-Reply-To: <3A069107.12514.6222FBF5@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.123339.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 6 Nov 2000 jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM wrote:

> The problem is, of course, that it's impossible to tell whether the
> quotation appeared in the original edition or only in Migliorini's
> revision.  Would anyone have a 1905 Panzini handy?

And the answer is...  The same quotation appeared in the 1905 edition.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  6 17:55:26 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 12:55:26 EST
Subject: "Jazbo" (Jan. 3, 1916)
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.125526.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from the Library of Congress, where I did not find anything
under "Fred Landi" or "cappuccino" in the copyright section.  The copyrights
are divided 1898-1937 and then 1938-1945.  I checked for books and songs.
Trademarks are in another building.

JAZBO

   JAZZ--AN ILLUSTRATED HISTORY by Geoffrey C. Ward (the companion book to
the PBS documentary by Ken Burns that will premiere in January) will hit the
bookstores tomorrow.
   The earliest "jazz" song copyright (I may have cited this before) is:

JAZBO: FOXTROT
by Arthur S. Shaw
January 3, 1916
Forster Music Publishers, Chicago
E375282

   "Jazz" in Chicago in 1915-1916!


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov  6 18:12:31 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 13:12:31 -0500
Subject: more vowel weirdness
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.131231.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dale Coye wrote:
>>>>>
>If this is the feature I think you mean, I've noticed it from private
school
>grads (Exeter, Andover, Lawrenceville, and others) as far back as the late
>70s.   A fronted first element-- almost as in RP. I always wondered how
>widespread it was.
<<<<<

dInIs aens at rd:
>>>>>
Careful of its widespreadedness. Its source at the yuppie places you
mention is almost certainly RP (although I'd be happy to hear of other
theories), but back-vowel fronting is rampant in the American South and,
with slightly different pohonetic details, "Valley Girl," the latter
spreading like wildfire to the East. All these similar shifts may be
bumping heads in some places.
<<<<<

As I've read RP described, and heard it, the first element of the diphthong
in "hope" is not a fronted [o] but its opposite, a backed [e] or
*unrounded* [o], with the IPA symbol called "ram's horns" or "baby gamma".


-- Mark


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Mon Nov  6 18:30:58 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 12:30:58 -0600
Subject: double modals (was: fronted /oU/)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0011061046520.25379-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.123058.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE has a pretty interesting sample of multiple modals at "may" verb,
section B.


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  6 18:38:09 2000
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 13:38:09 EST
Subject: double modals (was: fronted /oU/)
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.133809.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've never perceived a "politeness" function of these "serial modals."  In
fact, I have sensed more of a "doubt" or "hesitancy" motive on the part of
the speakers--a phenomenon quite similar to the ever-increasing pairing of
"kinda" and "sorta," as in "I kinda (=kind of) sort a (=sort of) think I'll
be able to do it."  These serial modals occur in the same context (Cf. I
think I might could/can/would do it.)
                                     PAT


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov  6 06:09:27 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:09:27 +0800
Subject: more vowel weirdness
In-Reply-To: <OFDDB3A51C.75B29A68-ON8525698F.0063B629@dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.140927.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Dale Coye wrote:
>>>>>>
>>If this is the feature I think you mean, I've noticed it from private
>school
>>grads (Exeter, Andover, Lawrenceville, and others) as far back as the late
>>70s.   A fronted first element-- almost as in RP. I always wondered how
>>widespread it was.
><<<<<
>
>dInIs aens at rd:
>>>>>>
>Careful of its widespreadedness. Its source at the yuppie places you
>mention is almost certainly RP (although I'd be happy to hear of other
>theories), but back-vowel fronting is rampant in the American South and,
>with slightly different pohonetic details, "Valley Girl," the latter
>spreading like wildfire to the East. All these similar shifts may be
>bumping heads in some places.
><<<<<
>
>As I've read RP described, and heard it, the first element of the diphthong
>in "hope" is not a fronted [o] but its opposite, a backed [e] or
>*unrounded* [o], with the IPA symbol called "ram's horns" or "baby gamma".
>
>-- Mark
Exactly.  You've put your finger on what I found unsatisfactory in
the previous invocations of RP, which Ainsley's vowel didn't strike
me as being at all reminiscent of.  Her vowel is indeed fronted,
although I'm still not sure whether it's a symptom of southernness,
private school pretentiousness, both, or neither.    RP I'm pretty
sure it's not.

L


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Nov  6 20:14:04 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:14:04 -0600
Subject: more vowel weirdness
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.141404.0600.>

> >Dale Coye wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>If this is the feature I think you mean, I've noticed it from private school
> >>grads (Exeter, Andover, Lawrenceville, and others) as far back as the late
> >>70s.   A fronted first element-- almost as in RP. I always wondered how
> >>widespread it was.
> ><<<<<
> >
> >dInIs aens at rd:
> >>>>>>
> >Careful of its widespreadedness. Its source at the yuppie places you
> >mention is almost certainly RP (although I'd be happy to hear of other
> >theories), but back-vowel fronting is rampant in the American South and,
> >with slightly different pohonetic details, "Valley Girl," the latter
> >spreading like wildfire to the East. All these similar shifts may be
> >bumping heads in some places.
> ><<<<<
> >
> >As I've read RP described, and heard it, the first element of the diphthong
> >in "hope" is not a fronted [o] but its opposite, a backed [e] or
> >*unrounded* [o], with the IPA symbol called "ram's horns" or "baby gamma".
> >
> >-- Mark
>

> Laurence Horn wrote:

> Exactly.  You've put your finger on what I found unsatisfactory in
> the previous invocations of RP, which Ainsley's vowel didn't strike
> me as being at all reminiscent of.  Her vowel is indeed fronted,
> although I'm still not sure whether it's a symptom of southernness,
> private school pretentiousness, both, or neither.    RP I'm pretty
> sure it's not.

I agree that it is probably not a direct imitation of RP.  In an earlier e-mail, I
mentioned friends of mine from southern WV who have this feature, and they certainly were
not from the "private school" set.  There may be a historical element of Southern
pretentiousness in it -- a 1930s analogue to the burnout/redneck dichotomy (cf. T. Habick)
in Southern communities, with the "higher class" group aspiring to membership in country
clubs rather than to school-related goals.
DMLance


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Nov  6 20:24:50 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:24:50 -0600
Subject: double modals (was: fronted /oU/)
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.142450.0600.>

There was a lengthy discussion of double modals on ADS-L several years ago.  There's an
excellent ESL book -- THE GRAMMAR BOOK -- that has a thorough discussion of modals.
Modals may express possibility/probability ('might' in 'might could') and some kind of
social interaction or potential social contract such as expressing willingness etc. ("I
might could help you").  Double modals in everyday speech are not rare in Missouri or
Texas, but rather are used when the communicative situation calls for them.  Fussier
people might prefer to say "I may/might be able to help you," opting for the phrasal
modal, which tends to occur in second position when there are two.  There may be a
politeness feature to either the possibility or the social function.
DMLance

P2052 at AOL.COM wrote:

> I've never perceived a "politeness" function of these "serial modals."  In
> fact, I have sensed more of a "doubt" or "hesitancy" motive on the part of
> the speakers--a phenomenon quite similar to the ever-increasing pairing of
> "kinda" and "sorta," as in "I kinda (=kind of) sort a (=sort of) think I'll
> be able to do it."  These serial modals occur in the same context (Cf. I
> think I might could/can/would do it.)
>                                      PAT


From cbernstn at POSTOFFICE.MEMPHIS.EDU  Mon Nov  6 20:44:45 2000
From: cbernstn at POSTOFFICE.MEMPHIS.EDU (Cynthia Bernstein)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:44:45 -0600
Subject: double modals (was: fronted /oU/)
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.144445.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>> I've reprinted below the reference list for a current project of mine
>> on Southern US grammatical features.  Of particular relevance to
>> multiple modals are DiPaolo, Feagin, Fennell and Butters, Mishoe and
>> Montgomery, Montgomery (1998), Montgomery and Nagle, Nagle (1993).
>> The politeness of "might could" among at least some speakers of
>> Southern US English is well documented.
>
Cindy Bernstein
cbernstn at memphis.edu

>>
>>                            References
>>
>>
>> Atwood, E. Bagby.  1953.  A Survey of Verb Forms in the Eastern United
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>> University of Michigan Press.
>>
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>> University of Texas
>> Press.
>>
>> Axley, Lowry. 1927. "'You All' and 'We All' Again." American Speech 2:
>> 343-45.
>>
>> Axley, Lowry. 1929.  "One Word More on 'You All'." American Speech 4:
>> 347-51.
>>
>> Bailey, Beryl Loftman.  1966.  Jamaican Creole Syntax: A
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>>
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>>
>> Bailey, Guy, Tom Wikle, Jan Tillery, and Lori Sand.  1993.  "Some
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>>
>> Bean, Judith Mattson.  1991.  "The Evolution of Inchoatives:  Go To
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>>
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>>
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>>
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>> Published online 2 April.
>>
>> Spencer, Nancy.  1975.  "Singular Y’all."  American Speech 4: 54-55.
>>
>> Tillery, Jan, Tom Wikle, and Guy Bailey.  2000. "The Nationalization
>> of a Southernism."
>> Journal of English Linguistics 28:  280-94.
>>
>> Traugott, Elizabeth Closs.  1972.  History of English Syntax:  A
>> Transformational Approach to
>> the History of English Sentence Structure.  New York, Holt, Rinehart
>> and Winston.
>>
>> Viereck, Wolfgang. 1988. "Invariant be in an Unnoticed Source of
>> American Early Black
>> English." American Speech 63: 291-303.
>>
>> Visser, F. Th.  1963-73.  An historical syntax of the English
>> Language.  3 vols, + 1 part.  Leiden:
>> Brill.
>>
>> Vowles, Guy R. 1944.  "A Few Observations on Southern 'You-All'."
>> American Speech 19:146-
>> 47.
>>
>> Wentworth, Harold.  1944.  American Dialect Dictionary.  New York:
>> Crowell.
>>
>> Wolfram, Walt, and Donna Christian.  1976.  Appalachian Speech.
>> Washington, DC:  Center for
>> Applied Linguistics.
>>
>> Wolfram, Walt, and Ralph Fasold.  1974.  The Study of Social Dialects
>> in American English.
>> Englewood Cliffs, NJ:  Prentice-Hall.
>>
>> Wolfram, Walt, Kirk Hazen, and Natalie Schilling-Estes.  1999.
>> Dialect Change and
>> Maintenance on the Outer Banks.  Publication of the American Dialect
>> Society (PADS) 81.
>> Tuscaloosa:  University of Alabama Press.
>>
>> Wolfram, Walt, and Natalie Schilling-Estes 1998.  American English:
>> Dialects and Variation.
>> Oxford and Malden, MA:  Blackwell.
>>
>> Wright, Joseph.  1898-1905.  The English Dialect Dictionary.  London.
>>
>> Zeigler, Mary.  1997.  "Ain No Such Word:  A Dictionary History of
>> 'Fixin to'.  Southeastern
>> Conference on Linguistics (SECOL), Charlotte, NC,  5 April.
>>
>> Zeigler, Mary.  1998.  "The Grammaticalization of 'Fixin to'."
>> Southeastern Conference on
>> Linguistics (SECOL), Lafayette, LA, 3 March.
>
>
>


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Mon Nov  6 21:03:09 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:03:09 -0500
Subject: ads schedule
In-Reply-To: <908477258gbarrett@monickels.com>
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.160309.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I still can't access americandialect.org, although I can access
http://us.english.uga.edu/ads/  -- however at that site,
the pdf of the newsletter doesn't exist at that server.

Does a copy of the schedule currently exist anywhere on the web?

--- Steve K.


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Mon Nov  6 22:11:05 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:11:05 +0100
Subject: ads schedule
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.231105.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

On lundi 6 novembre 2000 22:03, Steve K. <stevek at SHORE.NET> wrote:
>I still can't access americandialect.org, although I can access
>http://us.english.uga.edu/ads/  -- however at that site,
>the pdf of the newsletter doesn't exist at that server.

The problem is that the download link is not coded for http://us.english.uga.edu/ads/
 but for http://www.americandialect.org.

Use this:

http://us.english.uga.edu/ads/NADS32-3.pdf

I, Eric at UGA at others are still working on the DNS problem. Hang in there.


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  6 22:12:00 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:12:00 EST
Subject: NADS 32.3
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.171200.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/4/00 11:29:13 AM, mlee303 at YAHOO.COM writes:

<< margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu >>

Dear Professor Lee,

Thank you for sending your new e-mail address.  We have amended our files,
and though NADS 32.3 has already gone to press, please be assured that your
information will be correct in future issues.

Sincerely,
Erin Klee   =-)
Administrative Assistant
American Dialect Society


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Tue Nov  7 06:04:15 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 01:04:15 -0500
Subject: Quiet...
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.010415.0500.>

Sorry, the address missed the List.

Thomas Paikeday wrote:
>
> Malayalam has much to recommend itself as a Dravidian language, though
> the vocabulary is very much Sanskritized. The alphabet is an exact copy
> of Devanagari.
>
> A free sample of spoken Malayalam is available to anyone calling me
> between 9 and 5 Eastern time at (905)371-2065. I learnt it from my
> mother.
>
> Tom Paikeday
>
> Mark Odegard wrote:
> >
> > Considering this is an Austronesian language, . . .
> > . . . I have NEVER said it aloud to another human being, and obviously, have never heard it spoken.


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Tue Nov  7 13:28:26 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:28:26 -0500
Subject: ads schedule
In-Reply-To: <908913357gbarrett@monickels.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.082826.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 6 Nov 2000, Grant Barrett wrote:

> http://us.english.uga.edu/ads/NADS32-3.pdf

Perfecto! Thanks.

--- Steve K.


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Nov  7 15:18:44 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:18:44 -0500
Subject: Nonplussed = unfazed?
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.101844.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In today's Word Spy, I pointed out that reporter Gina Kolata of The New York
Times uses the word "nonplussed" incorrectly in the following citation:

"Yet he was nonplussed by the number of attacks on that single day last
week. 'I think it's fairly typical,' he said."

Clearly she's using it here to mean "unfazed" and I pointed out that
although this is a common error, the correct meaning is "bewildered; at a
loss." One subscriber has taken me to task on this. Calling me a
"prescriptivist" (ouch!), he said that the "unfazed" meaning is now
descriptive of actual usage, particularly in American English. None of my
dictionaries mention (much less sanction) this usage. I know it's a common
error, but I still insist that it's an error. Is usage winning this battle?

Paul
http://www.mcfedries.com/


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 03:41:51 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:41:51 +0800
Subject: Nonplussed = unfazed?
In-Reply-To: <011301c048ce$051810e0$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.114151.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In today's Word Spy, I pointed out that reporter Gina Kolata of The New York
>Times uses the word "nonplussed" incorrectly in the following citation:
>
>"Yet he was nonplussed by the number of attacks on that single day last
>week. 'I think it's fairly typical,' he said."
>
>Clearly she's using it here to mean "unfazed" and I pointed out that
>although this is a common error, the correct meaning is "bewildered; at a
>loss." One subscriber has taken me to task on this. Calling me a
>"prescriptivist" (ouch!), he said that the "unfazed" meaning is now
>descriptive of actual usage, particularly in American English. None of my
>dictionaries mention (much less sanction) this usage. I know it's a common
>error, but I still insist that it's an error. Is usage winning this battle?
>
>Paul
>http://www.mcfedries.com/

We had a discussion on this exactly two years ago.  Since I'm not
sure what the current searchability status of the archive is, I copy
this discussion below.


Larry
==================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:50:56 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Larry Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
Subject:      two-stage reanalysis ('nonplussed')

A recent subhead (10/26/98) in the Yale Daily News read as follows:

         Citing frequent violence as the reason,
         most students remained unpulsed by
         Friday's shootout

Now, of course, "unpulsed" is a neologism; unsurprisingly, nary a cite on
Nexis, and I doubt it will catch on.  (Let's all try to control our
disappointment.)
But what its use in this context presupposes, as some of my colleagues here
pointed out, is a prior reanalysis of "nonplussed" (presumably, the source
for this mishearing) as meaning 'unfazed' or 'evincing indifference'.  The
standard and only official meaning of "nonplussed"--as listed in every
dictionary I checked--is 'puzzled, bewildered, baffled', not 'indifferent'
or 'unfazed'.  (Similarly for the verb, "to nonplus".) But for me, the
latter meaning is if anything the more salient of the two.  One of my
colleagues (older than me--and I'm 53--and like me originally from NYC)
shares my lexical entry, but my other colleagues were, shall we say,
totally nonplussed by it.  (In their sense, not mine.)
         Are any of you familiar with this reanalysis, or any account of it?
It would interesting to know if there's any regional dimension; it
certainly doesn't SEEM like a feature of New York City English--although
one might argue that New Yorkers learn early on to show a poker face when
baffled or puzzled, so it's easy to make up a story justifying the meaning
shift.

Larry
================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:59:18 -0800
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: "A. Maberry" <maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: two-stage reanalysis ('nonplussed')

I see/hear it used in the sense of "unfazed" much more frequently than
"bewildered"--so much so that if I did hear it in a context which had to
mean "bewildered", I would probably go look it up in a dictionary.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu
=========================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:43:50 -0600
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Jessie Emerson <jessie at SIRSI.COM>
Subject:      Re: two-stage reanalysis ('nonplussed')

Bewildered, baffled are the only meanings I've ever known for nonplussed.
I would never think it meant indifferent.

Jessie (Alabama)
=========================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:11:45 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Grant Barrett <gbarrett at dfjp.com>
Subject:      Re: two-stage reanalysis ('nonplussed')

I seem to have the two apparently incompatible meanings for
nonplussed in my head, and didn't realize it until you brought it up.
The reason I say "apparently," however, is that non-plussed always
seemed to evoke more an idea of a physical state of a person rather
than an emotional one.
A person who is nonplussed (confused, bewildered) has exactly same
blank look (by my definition) as a person who is nonplussed (unfazed,
evincing indifference).
Grant Barrett
gbarrett at dfjp.com




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From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 16:40:30 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:40:30 EST
Subject: booking
In-Reply-To: <19DA7294E6C@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.114030.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        From the [New York] Daily News, November 7, 2000, p. 21, col. 4, in
a story reporting on an automobile accident:

        . . . Joe Hunt said he heard a crash and saw Moore's car fly by out
of the corner of his eye.  "He was really booking, you know, going
real fast," Hunt said.

HDAS (I happily follow the lead of Jesse Sheidlower in dropping the
initials of the infamous publishing house formerly associated with
this dictionary) has booking, to go fast, between 1974 and 1984.  The
word is alive and well -- in New York, at least.

I note that in 1969 a California participant in DARE completed the
sentence "Something that is left undecided or unfinished: perhaps we
had better ____" with the words "book it."  Is there a connection
here?  One leaves something unfinished because one is in a hurry to
do something else?  I am also put in mind of a stanza from an old
country blues called "Keys to the Highway".  I've not heard this for
many years, and my very limited blues CD collection doesn't include
it, so I can't refesh my memory.  Are there any blues hounds in our
coven?  I recall the version I knew to have been recorded by Big
Bill Broonzy, probably in the 1930s or 1940s.  In any event, as I
recall, the stanza goes:  "I've got the keys to the highway, I'm
booked up and bound to go, I'm gone to leave here running, cause
walking is most too slow."  Here there is a connection between being
booked up and the desire for speed.

Neither the Dictionary of American English nor Dictionary of
Americanisms has book as a verb.

GAT


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Nov  7 17:12:59 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:12:59 -0500
Subject: Nonplussed = unfazed?
In-Reply-To: <011301c048ce$051810e0$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.121259.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In today's Word Spy, I pointed out that reporter Gina Kolata of The New York
>Times uses the word "nonplussed" incorrectly in the following citation:
>
>"Yet he was nonplussed by the number of attacks on that single day last
>week. 'I think it's fairly typical,' he said."
>
>Clearly she's using it here to mean "unfazed" and I pointed out that
>although this is a common error, the correct meaning is "bewildered; at a
>loss." One subscriber has taken me to task on this. Calling me a
>"prescriptivist" (ouch!), he said that the "unfazed" meaning is now
>descriptive of actual usage, particularly in American English. None of my
>dictionaries mention (much less sanction) this usage. I know it's a common
>error, but I still insist that it's an error. Is usage winning this battle?

One need not worry about the label "prescriptivist". A poll of the
ignorant, illiterate, and careless -- which of course defines the word's
true meaning -- will indicate that "prescriptivist" is extremely
nonspecific but most likely has something to do with a pharmacy.

As for the reference to "American" usage ... maybe the anti-pharmaceutical
subscriber would be happy if the word "error" were universally replaced
with "Americanism". Instead of saying "I never make an error; that's my
idiolect" I could say "I never make an error; I'm an American".

-- Doug Wilson


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Nov  7 17:29:21 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:29:21 -0500
Subject: booking
In-Reply-To: <1A9672E4FDB@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.122921.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've heard and used this for years in NC.  I've no idea where I got it, and
I've no idea of its origins.  All I know is, I've got to go vote, so I
better get bookin'.

bob

> From: GEORGE THOMPSON <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU>
> Organization: NYU Libraries
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:40:30 EST
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: booking
>
> From the [New York] Daily News, November 7, 2000, p. 21, col. 4, in
> a story reporting on an automobile accident:
>
> . . . Joe Hunt said he heard a crash and saw Moore's car fly by out
> of the corner of his eye.  "He was really booking, you know, going
> real fast," Hunt said.
>
> HDAS (I happily follow the lead of Jesse Sheidlower in dropping the
> initials of the infamous publishing house formerly associated with
> this dictionary) has booking, to go fast, between 1974 and 1984.  The
> word is alive and well -- in New York, at least.
>
> I note that in 1969 a California participant in DARE completed the
> sentence "Something that is left undecided or unfinished: perhaps we
> had better ____" with the words "book it."  Is there a connection
> here?  One leaves something unfinished because one is in a hurry to
> do something else?  I am also put in mind of a stanza from an old
> country blues called "Keys to the Highway".  I've not heard this for
> many years, and my very limited blues CD collection doesn't include
> it, so I can't refesh my memory.  Are there any blues hounds in our
> coven?  I recall the version I knew to have been recorded by Big
> Bill Broonzy, probably in the 1930s or 1940s.  In any event, as I
> recall, the stanza goes:  "I've got the keys to the highway, I'm
> booked up and bound to go, I'm gone to leave here running, cause
> walking is most too slow."  Here there is a connection between being
> booked up and the desire for speed.
>
> Neither the Dictionary of American English nor Dictionary of
> Americanisms has book as a verb.
>
> GAT


From mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Nov  7 19:32:18 2000
From: mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko Mufwene)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:32:18 -0800
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.113218.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


Can anybody paraphrase the following construction:

       But he's gone and drowned his dinner in syrup.

It occurs in Harper Lee's TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD in the following context:

    Atticus shook his head at me again. "But he's gone and drowned his dinner
in syrup," I protested. "He's poured it all over --"

A southern student in my "Dialect Voices in Literature" class suggested that
"gone and" is equivalent to PERFECT "done" in this construction. However,
another southern student said she was not familiar with it. My
African-American
student had no clue either. The rest of white American students in the class
had no idea. Can anybody on this list enlighten us?

Sali.


**********************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
**********************************************************
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From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Nov  7 17:52:06 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:52:06 +0000
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <200011071730.eA7HUF007449@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.175206.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Can anybody paraphrase the following construction:
>
>        But he's gone and drowned his dinner in syrup.
>
>It occurs in Harper Lee's TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD in the following context:
>
>     Atticus shook his head at me again. "But he's gone and drowned
>his dinner in syrup," I protested. "He's poured it all over --"
>
>A southern student in my "Dialect Voices in Literature" class
>suggested that "gone and" is equivalent to PERFECT "done" in this
>construction. However, another southern student said she was not
>familiar with it. My African-American student had no clue either.
>The rest of white American students in the class had no idea. Can
>anybody on this list enlighten us?

Your question's a bit ambiguous.  Are the other students unfamiliar
with "gone and" or "done"?  The former seems unbelievable.

Are they familiar with "went and...?"  Geoff Sampson has suggested
that the perfect has mostly died in American English (I think he
exaggerates;  I also think he's talking about particular uses of the
perfect and not the form per se.  He thinks that the difference
between the past and the perfect is dying.)

Lynne

--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 17:52:27 2000
From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:52:27 -0500
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <200011071730.eA7HUF007449@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.125227.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    It does mean that he did "drown his dinner in syrup."  The
connotation is that he did something wrong, as in

Can you believe that he just went and wrote that letter without telling me?
That cat of yours has gone and destroyed my couch.

    I'm more used to hearing it as "...went and...," obviously, but I
have heard "gone" too (growing up in southern Illinois, rather rural).
This construction was mainly used to discuss someone doing something bad.

    Johanna, who wants UPS to stop by and pick up her defective monitor

Excerpts from mail: 7-Nov-100 Gone and V-ed by Salikoko Mufwene at MIDWAY.
> Can anybody paraphrase the following construction:
>
>        But he's gone and drowned his dinner in syrup.
>
> It occurs in Harper Lee's TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD in the following context:
>
>     Atticus shook his head at me again. "But he's gone and drowned his dinner
> in syrup," I protested. "He's poured it all over --"
>
> A southern student in my "Dialect Voices in Literature" class suggested that
> "gone and" is equivalent to PERFECT "done" in this construction. However,
> another southern student said she was not familiar with it. My
> African-American
> student had no clue either. The rest of white American students in the class
> had no idea. Can anybody on this list enlighten us?


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Tue Nov  7 18:26:19 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 13:26:19 -0500
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <8u245PC00Ui504CVA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.132619.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Johanna N Franklin wrote:

>     I'm more used to hearing it as "...went and...," obviously, but I
> have heard "gone" too (growing up in southern Illinois, rather rural).
> This construction was mainly used to discuss someone doing something bad.

"Went and..." (as well as "gone and...") sounds very natural to me,
too. (mid-Michigan rural/industrial hybrid).

-- Steve K.


From mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Nov  7 20:20:52 2000
From: mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko Mufwene)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:20:52 -0800
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <a05001906b62df0add4cf@[139.184.48.65]>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.122052.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 05:52 PM 11/7/2000 +0000, Lynne Murphy wrote:

>>A southern student in my "Dialect Voices in Literature" class
>>suggested that "gone and" is equivalent to PERFECT "done" in this
>>construction. However, another southern student said she was not
>>familiar with it. My African-American student had no clue either.
>>The rest of white American students in the class had no idea. Can
>>anybody on this list enlighten us?
>
>Your question's a bit ambiguous.  Are the other students unfamiliar
>with "gone and" or "done"?  The former seems unbelievable.
>
They are all unfamiliar with the "gone and" construction.

Sali.


**********************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
**********************************************************
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From mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Nov  7 20:25:09 2000
From: mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko Mufwene)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:25:09 -0800
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <8u245PC00Ui504CVA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.122509.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:52 PM 11/7/2000 -0500, Johanna N. Franklin wrote:

>    It does mean that he did "drown his dinner in syrup."  The
>connotation is that he did something wrong, as in
>
>Can you believe that he just went and wrote that letter without telling me?
>That cat of yours has gone and destroyed my couch.
>
>    I'm more used to hearing it as "...went and...," obviously, but I
>have heard "gone" too (growing up in southern Illinois, rather rural).
>This construction was mainly used to discuss someone doing something bad.
>
>    Johanna, who wants UPS to stop by and pick up her defective monitor
>
Can we assume safely here that "gone" loses the literal meaning of MOTION? A
student thought the MOTION-less interpretation must be the
case--reminiscent of
"camouflaged 'come'" I think.

Sali.

**********************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
**********************************************************
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From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 18:44:40 2000
From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 13:44:40 -0500
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <200011071823.eA7IND024291@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.134440.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    I don't think there's any hint of motion here.  It doesn't sound
unreasonable for someone to be sitting at a desk doing paperwork, and
then groan and explain that he "just went and signed in the wrong box."

    Johanna

Excerpts from mail: 7-Nov-100 Re: Gone and V-ed by Salikoko Mufwene at MIDWAY.
> Can we assume safely here that "gone" loses the literal meaning of MOTION? A
> student thought the MOTION-less interpretation must be the
> case--reminiscent of
> "camouflaged 'come'" I think.


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov  7 18:55:05 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:55:05 -0800
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <200011071823.eA7IND024291@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.105505.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Like Lynne, I find it incredible that any speaker of American English would
be unfamiliar with the "gone and..." construction. I doubt that I use it
often myself, but it's certainly available in my active vocabulary.  And
it's common enough in books (though probably only in dialog).  Have these
students ever read a novel?!

Certainly this use of "go" doesn't refer to motion.  It's something like
"proceed to," except that, as Johanna and others have indicated, the verb
it's used with denotes something undesirable or disapproved of by the
speaker.  As far as I know, the full conjugation of "go" can be used in
this way.  (E.g., to a child, "You WOULD go and eat ice cream before
dinner, wouldn't you!"  Or, "So what does he do?  He goes and walks through
a mud puddle in his brand new shoes!")

Peter Mc.

--On Tue, Nov 7, 2000 12:25 PM -0800 Salikoko Mufwene
<mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU> wrote:

> At 12:52 PM 11/7/2000 -0500, Johanna N. Franklin wrote:
>
>>    It does mean that he did "drown his dinner in syrup."  The
>> connotation is that he did something wrong, as in
>>
>> Can you believe that he just went and wrote that letter without telling
>> me? That cat of yours has gone and destroyed my couch.
>>
>>    I'm more used to hearing it as "...went and...," obviously, but I
>> have heard "gone" too (growing up in southern Illinois, rather rural).
>> This construction was mainly used to discuss someone doing something bad.
>>
>>    Johanna, who wants UPS to stop by and pick up her defective monitor
>>
> Can we assume safely here that "gone" loses the literal meaning of
> MOTION? A student thought the MOTION-less interpretation must be the
> case--reminiscent of "camouflaged 'come'" I think.
>
> Sali.
>
> **********************************************************
> Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
> University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
> Department of Linguistics
> 1010 East 59th Street
> Chicago, IL 60637
> http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
> **********************************************************



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Nov  7 19:00:46 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:00:46 -0500
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <200011071730.eA7HUF007449@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.140046.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Can anybody paraphrase the following construction:
>
>        But he's gone and drowned his dinner in syrup.
>
>It occurs in Harper Lee's TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD in the following context:
>
>     Atticus shook his head at me again. "But he's gone and drowned his
> dinner in syrup," I protested. "He's poured it all over --"

I can give a near-equivalent: "But he's upped and drowned his dinner in syrup."

Another: "But he's taken and drowned his dinner in syrup."

"Go and V", "take and V", and "up and V" are not absolutely
interchangeable, but I perceive each to be equivalent to an intensified or
emphatic form of "V" -- probably just by virtue of lengthening or elaboration.

I think the "go" is motionless, similar to the first verb in "I'm going to
go there some day", with the connotation of willfulness (but not
universally, and sometimes rather sarcastically perhaps). Perhaps one might
compare "But he's gone so far as to drown his dinner in syrup."

"Take and" tends to imply, I think, some instrument (although not
universally): in this case like "He's taken the syrup and drowned his
dinner in it."

"Up and" has, I think, a flavor of sudden arousal, like "rise up" or "start
up": e.g., "He didn't say anything, he just up[ped] and ran."

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  7 19:02:12 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:02:12 EST
Subject: JAZZ (or, Ken Burns gets it wrong!)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.140212.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

JAZZ--A HISTORY OF AMERICA'S MUSIC (2000)
by Geoffrey C. Ward and Ken Burns

Pg. 65:
   _JASS, JASZ, JAZZ_
   As early as 1906, a San Francisco sportswriter was using the word to
denote pep and enthusiasm on the baseball field, and there were those who
thought it might have originally come from a West African word for speeding
things up.  But most authorities believe that the term, like the music, came
from New Orleans--from the jasmine perfume allegedly favored by the city's
prostitutes, or from "jezebel," a common nineteenth-century term for a
prostitute, or as a synonym for sexual intercourse in Storyville, where some
brothels were said to have been called "jay'n houses."  "The original meaning
of jazz was procreation," says the trumpet player Wynton Marsalis, "you can't
get deeper or more profound than that unless you're contemplating the
Creator."


   EVERY LINE OF THIS IS WRONG!!
   AHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
   1906?  Try 1913!
   A small error?  Ken Burns has devoted years to his documentary, JAZZ.
This is something he's gotta know cold!  What does he do?  He copies this
error from a book!  Does he call up the OED to even ask about "jazz"?  NO!
   His brother, Ken Burns, is filming several more hours of NEW YORK and has
yet to contact me about "the Big Apple."  It must run in the family.
   Most authorities--actually, almost all authorities, do NOT believe that
the word "jazz" comes from New Orleans.  It's very clear that it was
popularized in Chicago, and the word got there from San Francisco.  Bert
Kelly's name isn't even mentioned, but he helped to bring "jazz" to Chicago.
   Louis Armstrong lived in New Orleans, and it's documented that he first
heard the term used by someone from Chicago.  He'd never heard "jazz" in New
Orleans, even though he'd been playing the music.
   Ken Burns doesn't know this!
   Who does he consult on the meaning of the word "jazz"?  Wynton Marsalis!
Has Wynton done any studies published studies on the word?  No!  But he, you
know, knows "jazz."  For example: Would you ask a modern baseball player
about "baseball," and forget about George Thompson's work on the term?  No,
you'd go with asking the scholar.  But the Burns boys don't do this!
   Amazing!
   At least the documentary won't be used in schools to pass these errors on
to young kids...

(OFF TOPIC:  OED contributor and ADS member David Shulman is right here.  The
CBS 60 MINUTES crew filmed him today, and they'll film him tomorrow in the
Carnegie Deli.--ed.)

--Barry Popik


From e-gregory at TAMU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 18:54:51 2000
From: e-gregory at TAMU.EDU (Elizabeth Gregory)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:54:51 -0600
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.125451.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's my attempt, solely as a native Alabamian (b. 1962, Montgomery), at this:

I'm not sure that the construction "gone and" is equivalent to perfect "done." To me, it indicates Scout's surprise and disgust with Walter Cunningham's application of syrup to his food. The way I interpret it, the construction acts as a kind of intensifer, reflecting the speaker's bad opinion of the action by imputing a certain intentionality, flagrancy, or folly to the actor.

For example, Scout could simply have said, "But he's drowned his dinner in syrup," which would have indicated merely surprise.

Instead, she's disgusted and says, "But he's gone and drowned . . .," implying that Walter intentionally committed this breach of dinner-guest protocol.

Now, if she were really outraged, she might have said, "But he's hauled off and drowned . . .," implying that Walter flagrantly, defiantly poured syrup all over his food. But really this is something I believe I've heard only men and boys say.

Of course, Scout should really have said _none_ of these things . . .

FWIW
Elizabeth Gregory


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 06:07:57 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:07:57 +0800
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <200011071823.eA7IND024282@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.140757.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:20 PM -0800 11/7/00, Salikoko Mufwene wrote:
>At 05:52 PM 11/7/2000 +0000, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
>>>A southern student in my "Dialect Voices in Literature" class
>>>suggested that "gone and" is equivalent to PERFECT "done" in this
>>>construction. However, another southern student said she was not
>>>familiar with it. My African-American student had no clue either.
>>>The rest of white American students in the class had no idea. Can
>>>anybody on this list enlighten us?
>>
>>Your question's a bit ambiguous.  Are the other students unfamiliar
>>with "gone and" or "done"?  The former seems unbelievable.
>>
>They are all unfamiliar with the "gone and" construction.
>
>Sali.
>
Weird.  There's even an extremely popular cross-over pop/country song
from a couple of years ago by Shenia Twain about someone who's "gone
'n' done it".  No literal motion involved; I've repressed it, but the
"it" was probably falling in love.  Anyone remember?  Oh wait, the
internet.  Let's see...Here it is.  (Enough [gone and done it]s for
everyone in Sali's class to have one.)

http://www.shania.com/cool-3.htm (if you want to see her preparing to sing)
LOVE GETS ME EVERY TIME


                                       Written by Twain/Lange

                                       Life was goin' great
                                       Love was gonna have to wait
                                       Was in no hurry -- had no worries
                                       Stayin' single was the plan
                                       Didn't need a steady man
                                       Had it covered -- 'til I dicovered

                                       Bridge:
                                       That love gets me every time
                                       My heart changed my mind
                                       I gol' darn gone and done it

                                       Chorus:
                                       Gone and done it (gone and done it)
                                       Guess I fell in love (gone and done it)
                                       Must have been the way he
walked (gone and done it)
                                       Or his sweet sweet talk (gone
and done it)
                                       I guess I -- gol' darn gone and done it

                                       I was quite content
                                       Just a-payin' my own rent
                                       It was my place -- I needed my space
                                       I was free to shop around
                                       In no rush to settle down
                                       I had it covered -- 'til I discovered

                                       (Bridge)
                                       (Chorus)
                                       (Bridge)

                                       Chorus: Gone and done it (gone
and done it)
                                       Guess I fell in love (gone and done it)
                                       Must have been the way he
walked (gone and done it)
                                       Or his sweet sweet talk (gone
and done it)
                                       It's in the way he calls my
name (gone and done it)
                                       I know I'll never be the same
(gone and done it)

                                       (Bridge)

                                       Thought I had it covered
                                       Life was going great
                                       Well I gol' darn gone and done it
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From jessie at SIRSI.COM  Tue Nov  7 19:16:30 2000
From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 13:16:30 -0600
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.131630.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> This construction was mainly used to discuss someone doing something bad.

In my experience, the "gone and" or "went and" construction carries the
notion of disbelief on the part of the speaker.

Jessie Emerson


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 19:06:41 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:06:41 -0500
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.140641.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:26 PM 11/7/00 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Johanna N Franklin wrote:
>
> >     I'm more used to hearing it as "...went and...," obviously, but I
> > have heard "gone" too (growing up in southern Illinois, rather rural).
> > This construction was mainly used to discuss someone doing something bad.
>
>"Went and..." (as well as "gone and...") sounds very natural to me,
>too. (mid-Michigan rural/industrial hybrid).
>
>-- Steve K.

Both are familiar to me too (rural/small town Minnesota), though I
associate them with my childhood style of speech (like that of
Scout).  They imply an elliptical "ahead" too:  "She went (ahead) and did
it," as if it wasn't foreseen or expected (not necessarily bad).  Isn't
this also a bit like a serial verb construction in which the first verb
isn't necessarily action-based?  Cf. "Let's go see."  "Let's go do
it."  "Let's go drown our dinner in syrup . . . ."

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM  Tue Nov  7 19:08:47 2000
From: Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM (Sallie Lemons)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:08:47 -0500
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.140847.0500.>



Laurence Horn wrote:

> At 12:20 PM -0800 11/7/00, Salikoko Mufwene wrote:
>
>> At 05:52 PM 11/7/2000 +0000, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>>
>> >>A southern student in my "Dialect Voices in Literature" class
>> >>suggested that "gone and" is equivalent to PERFECT "done" in this
>> >>construction. However, another southern student said she was not
>> >>familiar with it. My African-American student had no clue either.
>> >>The rest of white American students in the class had no idea. Can
>> >>anybody on this list enlighten us?
>> >
>> >Your question's a bit ambiguous.  Are the other students unfamiliar
>>
>> >with "gone and" or "done"?  The former seems unbelievable.
>> >
>> They are all unfamiliar with the "gone and" construction.
>
>> Sali.
>
> Weird.  There's even an extremely popular cross-over pop/country song
> from a couple of years ago by Shenia Twain about someone who's "gone
> 'n' done it".  No literal motion involved; I've repressed it, but the
> "it" was probably falling in love.  Anyone remember?  Oh wait, the
> internet.  Let's see...Here it is.  (Enough [gone and done it]s for
> everyone in Sali's class to have
> one.) http://www.shania.com/cool-3.htm (if you want to see her
> preparing to sing)LOVE GETS ME EVERY TIME
>
>
>         Written by Twain/Lange
>
>         Life was goin' great
>         Love was gonna have to wait
>         Was in no hurry -- had no worries
>         Stayin' single was the plan
>         Didn't need a steady man
>         Had it covered -- 'til I dicovered
>
>         Bridge:
>         That love gets me every time
>         My heart changed my mind
>         I gol' darn gone and done it
>
>         Chorus:
>         Gone and done it (gone and done it)
>         Guess I fell in love (gone and done it)
>         Must have been the way he walked (gone and done it)
>         Or his sweet sweet talk (gone and done it)
>         I guess I -- gol' darn gone and done it
>
>         I was quite content
>         Just a-payin' my own rent
>         It was my place -- I needed my space
>         I was free to shop around
>         In no rush to settle down
>         I had it covered -- 'til I discovered
>
>         (Bridge)
>         (Chorus)
>         (Bridge)
>
>         Chorus: Gone and done it (gone and done it)
>         Guess I fell in love (gone and done it)
>         Must have been the way he walked (gone and done it)
>         Or his sweet sweet talk (gone and done it)
>         It's in the way he calls my name (gone and done it)
>         I know I'll never be the same (gone and done it)
>
>         (Bridge)
>
>         Thought I had it covered
>         Life was going great
>         Well I gol' darn gone and done it
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From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 19:10:20 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:10:20 -0500
Subject: JAZZ (or, Ken Burns gets it wrong!)
In-Reply-To: <6.d986321.2739abb5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.141020.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I want to second Barry's amazement on this.  There has been a fair amount
of scholarship on the word "jazz," summarized in the entry in the
Historical Dictionary of American Slang.  Burns shows no sign of even
indirect influence by any of the relevant scholarship.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jessie at SIRSI.COM  Tue Nov  7 19:29:49 2000
From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 13:29:49 -0600
Subject: hauled off and (was Gone and V-ed)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.132949.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Now, if she were really outraged, she might have said, "But he's hauled
off and drowned . . .,"

I believe I've only heard "hauled off and" in reference to an act of
violence ("haul off and slap").

Jessie Emerson


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 06:22:51 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:22:51 +0800
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <sa07fbae.085@taexgw.tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.142251.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Here's my attempt, solely as a native Alabamian (b. 1962,
>Montgomery), at this:
>
>
>Now, if she were really outraged, she might have said, "But he's
>hauled off and drowned . . .," implying that Walter flagrantly,
>defiantly poured syrup all over his food. But really this is
>something I believe I've heard only men and boys say.
>
And if she were in a singin' mood, she could have (grown up and)
topped off Shenia's "gone an' done it" with the classic string band
sound of Wayne Raney's "Why Don't You Haul Off and Love Me?"
(recorded by several artists and groups in 1949, covered by Dolly
Parton 20 years later).    So Dolly  says "haul off and" at least
once, and she ain't no man nor boy, I don't reckon.

larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Nov  7 19:25:02 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:25:02 -0500
Subject: booking
In-Reply-To: <1A9672E4FDB@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.142502.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... "He was really booking, you know, going real fast," ... The
>word is alive and well -- in New York, at least.

Elsewhere too.

>I note that in 1969 a California participant in DARE completed the
>sentence "Something that is left undecided or unfinished: perhaps we
>had better ____" with the words "book it."  Is there a connection
>here?

A mystery to me. A slip of the mind for "table it"? "Book it for the next
meeting"? "Book space on the next meeting's agenda for it"?

>Neither the Dictionary of American English nor Dictionary of
>Americanisms has book as a verb.

The RHUD has it, but in the sense "depart" rather than "move fast".

In the sense "leave", I've generally heard "book" and "boogie" used
interchangeably (both current, I think, "book" probably the more common, in
my neighborhood); there's also "bug out". Also "bug[ger] off". All in the
RHUD, better in Chapman's slang dictionary. How are these related
etymologically? All have a connotation of immediacy, I think.

It is my impression that "book" = "move fast" is descended from "book" =
"depart [quickly/immediately]", this probably from something like
"bugger"/"booger" with "boogie" perhaps an intermediate form or perhaps
collateral. Can any savant correct me?

I wonder if "really booking" is parallel to "really flying" in the same
sense -- is "flying" in this sense perhaps derived from "fly" = "flee"
rather than "fly" = "aviate"?

-- Doug Wilson


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 06:30:08 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:30:08 +0800
Subject: Haul off and V (was: Gone and V-ed)
In-Reply-To: <00af01c048ef$3c1ea9c0$a0eaa6ce@sirsi.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.143008.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Semi-correction:  Dolly Parton's cover of "Why Don't You Haul Off and
Love Me" (1969) was part of a duet with Porter Wagoner, so this was
only half a counterexample to Elizabeth Gregory's generalization (and
after all the song was written by a man).

larry


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 19:41:30 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:41:30 -0500
Subject: hauled off and (was Gone and V-ed)
In-Reply-To: <00ce01c048f1$1843f940$a0eaa6ce@sirsi.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.144130.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not for me. I've hauled off and done lots of nonviolent stuff, although I
admit that "hauled off and" seems to prefix more decidedly physical stuff.
You went and told on him is better than You hauled off and told on him.

dInIs

 >> Now, if she were really outraged, she might have said, "But he's hauled
>off and drowned . . .,"
>
>I believe I've only heard "hauled off and" in reference to an act of
>violence ("haul off and slap").
>
>Jessie Emerson


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 19:43:39 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:43:39 -0500
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <p04320408b62d4e8d3359@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.144339.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Haul off an love me" plays, I think, on the usually physically active
status of what follows "haul off and" and is what makes "haul off and love
me" cute since "love me" is, by virture of this context, given a more
active or "physical" interpretation.

dInIs

>>Here's my attempt, solely as a native Alabamian (b. 1962,
>>Montgomery), at this:
>>
>>
>>Now, if she were really outraged, she might have said, "But he's
>>hauled off and drowned . . .," implying that Walter flagrantly,
>>defiantly poured syrup all over his food. But really this is
>>something I believe I've heard only men and boys say.
>>
>And if she were in a singin' mood, she could have (grown up and)
>topped off Shenia's "gone an' done it" with the classic string band
>sound of Wayne Raney's "Why Don't You Haul Off and Love Me?"
>(recorded by several artists and groups in 1949, covered by Dolly
>Parton 20 years later).    So Dolly  says "haul off and" at least
>once, and she ain't no man nor boy, I don't reckon.
>
>larry


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov  7 19:43:22 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:43:22 -0800
Subject: hauled off and (was Gone and V-ed)
In-Reply-To: <00ce01c048f1$1843f940$a0eaa6ce@sirsi.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.114322.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tue, Nov 7, 2000 1:29 PM -0600 Jessie Emerson <jessie at SIRSI.COM> wrote:

>
> I believe I've only heard "hauled off and" in reference to an act of
> violence ("haul off and slap").
>

Me too.  In my experience, the only thing you can haul off and do is hit
someone.  I assume its use in the song is a deliberate misuse for comic
effect or to give a startling new twist to the idea of "love."

Peter Mc.

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov  7 19:42:46 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:42:46 -0500
Subject: O. K. sign
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.144246.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I cross-posted my comment on the "OK" sign to SLLING-L, the Sign
Languages Linguistics List, Nancy Frishberg replied as follows (reposted
here by her permission):

>I also have this book, which I bought from John Smith, probably
>around the same time as Mark.  And, I needed to have John explain to
>joke to me, but I believe that this was (is?) general US, not just
>West Coast Deaf folklore.  John died quite a while ago (if I remember
>correctly - more than 10 years ago).

   Mark A. Mandel : Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Senior Linguist
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 07:05:32 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:05:32 +0800
Subject: hauled off and (was Gone and V-ed)
In-Reply-To: <765178.3182586202@dhcp-218-202-195.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.150532.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:43 AM -0800 11/7/00, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>--On Tue, Nov 7, 2000 1:29 PM -0600 Jessie Emerson <jessie at SIRSI.COM> wrote:
>
>>
>>  I believe I've only heard "hauled off and" in reference to an act of
>>  violence ("haul off and slap").
>>
>
>Me too.  In my experience, the only thing you can haul off and do is hit
>someone.  I assume its use in the song is a deliberate misuse for comic
>effect or to give a startling new twist to the idea of "love."
>
>Peter Mc.

I acknowledge that "Why Don't You Haul Off and Love Me" is an
exploitation of SOMEthing, but I'm not convinced that violence or
physical effort has to be involved.  This is from an anti-Clinton web
site, emphasis added:

Why They Don't Just Haul Off and Quit
Unvarnished vanity and insufferable arrogance
By John L. Perry
Posted March 11, 1999
...
"Quitting on principle and saying so at the time is a long-lost art
around the White House.
Those folks know now, even if they didn't before, what kind of man
their president is. So,
why don't they just haul off and quit?"

=======
Doesn't sound all that unnatural to me.
There's yet another song, "Haul Off and Kiss Me" (by Caroline
Aiken--another woman!)  "Deliberate misuse again," you say?  Well,
I'm not so sure it's that easily dismissable.  Here's an excerpt from
a piece of WebFiction called "Brothers and Sisters", at
http://northpole.simplenet.com/Jenga/RachelLynn/BroSis.htm.  Emphasis
added.

She smelled good, and there was something definitely feminine about
her, he realized as
she snuggled up against his chest. Immediately he tried to dismiss
the thought. _Here the poor girl is worried to death about the
situation we're in, and I can't seem to get my mind off wanting to
just haul off and kiss her out of the blue. Great, that's probably
exactly what she *doesn't* need at the moment._

--larry
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  7 20:08:37 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:08:37 EST
Subject: Show-ette
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.150837.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the DAILY NEWS (NY), 7 November 2000, pg. 44, col. 1:

_Madonna shows off_
_"Music" in a "show-ette"_
   (...)
   For her part, Madonna turned this 25-minute pit stop into a close
encounter worth cherishing.
   (...)
   Certainly, the "show-ette" didn't skimp on production values.

MISC.:
    Ric Burns is the brother of Ken Burns, to correct my last posting.  Ken
Burns is not Ken Burns's brother.
    OFF TOPIC: Also in the DAILY NEWS, pg. 41, is "Reason flunks out in
Electoral College."  Democratic Sen. Dick Durbin and Republican Rep. Ray
LaHood will introduce legislation to try and change the system.  (Too late
for this election, but still...)  FWIW, I also wrote a letter to Ross Perot,
who got over 10% of the vote in 1992 but 0 electors.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 07:15:24 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:15:24 +0800
Subject: Haul off and what?
In-Reply-To: <l03130302b62e0b969786@[35.8.73.31]>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.151524.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"Haul off an love me" plays, I think, on the usually physically active
>status of what follows "haul off and" and is what makes "haul off and love
>me" cute since "love me" is, by virture of this context, given a more
>active or "physical" interpretation.
>
>dInIs
>
Well, mebbe so, and the "haul off and kiss me" case is certainly
active and physical (without being necessarily all THAT violent, as
others would predict).  But here's another non-physical example,
_haul off and marry_, although arguably again for special effect.
This is from a site with various southern recipes,
http://www.zapitalism.com/zap/food.html.  It's the Chocolate Gravy &
Biscuits one that's relevant for our purposes, but I couldn't resist
including the banana worm bread.  (We do need something to eat so we
can wash it down with all of those drink recipes Barry is always
dispensing.)
=======================
Banana Worm Bread

       Ingredients:
       1/2 cup shortening
       3/4 cup sugar
       2 bananas, mashed
       2 cups flour
       1 teaspoon soda
       1 teaspoon salt
       1/2 cup chopped nuts
       2 eggs
       1/4 cup dry-roasted army worms

       Directions:
       Mix together all ingredients. Bake in greased loaf pan at 350
for about 1 hour.

       Chocolate Gravy & Biscuits

I'm a born-n-bred Southerner and had the gall to haul off and marry a
Northerner! I was raised on chocolate gravy and biscuits which is my
most favorite food of all time. This stuff is the greatest! My
husband won't even stay in the house when I make it or eat it though!

Biscuits: 1 or 2 cans of "whop" biscuits (these are the ones that
come in the little tube at the store and you have to "whop" them on
the counter to open the tube.) Bake as directed.

       Chocolate Gravy
       3 tablespoons of flour
       2 tablespoons of cocoa powder
       4 tablespoons of granulated sugar
       2 cups of milk
       2 tablespoons of butter
       1 teaspoon of vanilla

       Mix dry ingredients in shallow pan on stovetop until they're
completely combined. Add milk and stir. Cook on medium to medium high
heat until it bubbles and thickens. Add butter and vanilla. Stir.
Chunk up biscuits and pour chocolate gravy over the top. Enjoy!

       Oh....and you'll need a bucket....if you like it as much as I
do, then you'll eat till you explode!!!

       Sabrina Doster
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From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Nov  7 20:45:22 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:45:22 -0800
Subject: hauled off and (was Gone and V-ed)
In-Reply-To: <765178.3182586202@dhcp-218-202-195.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.124522.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Again, Peter and I, perhaps the lone Oregonians, are in agreement. "Haul
off and ..." implies agressive physical action. As for the song title,
I take it to be the juxtaposition of "haul off and" with
"kiss me" that makes it so, well, striking. Also, "gone and poured
syrup ... " or gone and V-ed anything sounds perfectly natural to me,
whereas "went and V-ed" sounds familiar but I don't think I've ever used
it in everyday speech.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> --On Tue, Nov 7, 2000 1:29 PM -0600 Jessie Emerson <jessie at SIRSI.COM> wrote:
>
> >
> > I believe I've only heard "hauled off and" in reference to an act of
> > violence ("haul off and slap").
> >
>
> Me too.  In my experience, the only thing you can haul off and do is hit
> someone.  I assume its use in the song is a deliberate misuse for comic
> effect or to give a startling new twist to the idea of "love."
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> ****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu
>


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Tue Nov  7 21:21:18 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:21:18 -0500
Subject: O. K. sign
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.162118.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Would apprecviate info re the Sign Language Linguistics List. My oldest
son does interpreting for the hearing impaired and may not be familiar
with it.

Bob

Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
>
> When I cross-posted my comment on the "OK" sign to SLLING-L, the Sign
> Languages Linguistics List,


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  7 21:43:51 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:43:51 EST
Subject: V&V?
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.164351.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Of course, stop and think about it: these V + and + V constructions are
plentiful. This evening I'll skip the election returns and go out and think
of a few more.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  7 21:51:04 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:51:04 EST
Subject: Haul off and what?
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.165104.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/7/2000 3:15:24 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

<< Well, mebbe so, and the "haul off and kiss me" case is certainly
active and physical (without being necessarily all THAT violent, as
others would predict).  But here's another non-physical example,
_haul off and marry_, although arguably again for special effect. >>

yeah, it has to be violently physical, or at least metaphorically so
interpreatable:

*Alex hauled off and played his piano
*?Alex hauled off and played seventy-two different versions of "Comin' 'Round
the Mountain" on his piano
?Alex hauled off and pounded out seventy-two different versions of "Comin'
'Round the Mountain" on his piano

Haul off and kiss that gal!
?Haul off and kiss my ass!
*?You may now haul off and kiss the bride.


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov  7 22:02:05 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:02:05 -0800
Subject: hauled off and (was Gone and V-ed)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.21.0011071237460.111910-100000@homer16.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.140205.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Allen!  And to think I was just about to haul off and recant in the
face of all Larry's examples.  Us Northwesterners gotta stick to
our...verbs.  Today the ADS, tomorrow the Electoral College!

PMc

--On Tue, Nov 7, 2000 12:45 PM -0800 "A. Maberry"
<maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU> wrote:

> Again, Peter and I, perhaps the lone Oregonians, are in agreement. "Haul
> off and ..." implies agressive physical action. As for the song title,
> I take it to be the juxtaposition of "haul off and" with
> "kiss me" that makes it so, well, striking. Also, "gone and poured
> syrup ... " or gone and V-ed anything sounds perfectly natural to me,
> whereas "went and V-ed" sounds familiar but I don't think I've ever used
> it in everyday speech.
>
> Allen
> maberry at u.washington.edu
>
> On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>
>> --On Tue, Nov 7, 2000 1:29 PM -0600 Jessie Emerson <jessie at SIRSI.COM>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > I believe I've only heard "hauled off and" in reference to an act of
>> > violence ("haul off and slap").
>> >
>>
>> Me too.  In my experience, the only thing you can haul off and do is hit
>> someone.  I assume its use in the song is a deliberate misuse for comic
>> effect or to give a startling new twist to the idea of "love."
>>
>> Peter Mc.
>>
>> ************************************************************************
>> **** Peter A. McGraw
>>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu
>>



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 22:04:23 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:04:23 -0500
Subject: V&V?
In-Reply-To: <91.29acb5a.2739d197@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.170423.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:43 PM 11/7/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Of course, stop and think about it: these V + and + V constructions are
>plentiful. This evening I'll skip the election returns and go out and think
>of a few more.

Or, go out and drink--esp. if things take and go badly.  (Oops, getting
political again.)

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Nov  7 22:26:53 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:26:53 -0500
Subject: booking
In-Reply-To: <1A9672E4FDB@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>; from
 thompsng@ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU on Tue, Nov 07,
 2000 at 11:40:30AM -0500
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.172653.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George Thompson wrote:
>
> HDAS (I happily follow the lead of Jesse Sheidlower in dropping the
> initials of the infamous publishing house formerly associated with
> this dictionary)

Longterm ADS-L members, or those using the archives, will know that I
have always referred to the _Random House Historical Dictionary
of American Slang_ as the HDAS. Also, Random House is still associated
with it.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Nov  7 23:11:30 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:11:30 -0600
Subject: JAZZ (or, Ken Burns gets it wrong!)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.171130.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Nov. 7, 2000 Fred Shapiro accurately commented on Barry Popik's message
from earlier in the day:
>
>I want to second Barry's amazement on this.  There has been a fair amount
>of scholarship on the word "jazz," summarized in the entry in the
>Historical Dictionary of American Slang.  Burns shows no sign of even
>indirect influence by any of the relevant scholarship.
>
-------I fully concur with Barry's and Fred's assessment. Also, I have
prepared a 70 page compilation of information on the term "jazz," slated
originally to appear in a few months in my publication "Comments on
Etymology"  (a series of working papers.)  In light of the present
discussion of "jazz" I'll move the publication date of that issue up to the
present.  I can have the issue ready to be mailed out in a week or two.

        Incidentally, due credit is given throughout the article. As a
start, the catalyst for my own work on the term "jazz" came from several
ADS-L messages sent by Barry Popik.

-----Gerald Cohen

















gcohen at umr.edu


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Tue Nov  7 23:18:07 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:18:07 -0600
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.171807.0600.>

"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:

> Like Lynne, I find it incredible that any speaker of American English would
> be unfamiliar with the "gone and..." construction. I doubt that I use it
> often myself, but it's certainly available in my active vocabulary.  And
> it's common enough in books (though probably only in dialog).  Have these
> students ever read a novel?!
>
> Certainly this use of "go" doesn't refer to motion.  It's something like
> "proceed to," except that, as Johanna and others have indicated, the verb
> it's used with denotes something undesirable or disapproved of by the
> speaker.  As far as I know, the full conjugation of "go" can be used in
> this way.  (E.g., to a child, "You WOULD go and eat ice cream before
> dinner, wouldn't you!"  Or, "So what does he do?  He goes and walks through
> a mud puddle in his brand new shoes!")

These figurative expressions are already at least one step away from [+literal], so if
'motion' is implicated, it would very likely also be nonliteral.  Someone suggested a
surprise element in them.  I buy this feature as being a likely core feature of these
expressions.  I suspect that there is a statistical tendency for these expressions to
occur when the surprise has negative more often than positive connotations.  Once a figure
of speech has taken on a negative smell, it is free to be used in irony -- or vice versa.
Meaning is in the mind of the speaker.  Would anyone assume negative implications if a
preacher said, "Well, looks like the Holy Ghost has done gone and taken over Mabel's whole
body!  Done hauled off and takened it away, done snatched it out of the hands of the
Devil!  She done went ahead and got herself saved!  Glory be!"
DMLance


From WNichols at RANDOMHOUSE.COM  Tue Nov  7 22:59:43 2000
From: WNichols at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Nichols, Wendalyn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:59:43 -0500
Subject: booking
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.175943.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I thank Jesse for his continued commitment to the HDAS and to refuting the
inaccuracies that are flying about in the wake of the regrettable Wall
Street Journal article. Rebuttals are ultimately self-defeating, because
they draw more attention to a difficult situation, and fail to persuade
those who have chosen to believe that there are good guys and bad guys in
all this. It is also not our policy to discuss private issues in a public
forum, which is why almost all the information in that article all came from
one source, the agent John Thornton, with only minimal and reluctant
participation from Dr. Lighter.

We have therefore chosen to remain largely silent about this matter.
However, the members of this list are people whose scholarship I respect and
whose continuing support I would request, so I will state for the record
that Random House remains committed to finishing this project. Financial
support from any angels out there would be most welcome; the original NEH
grant for what was meant to be a one-volume work has long since run out, and
since we are a commercial entity, we are not eligible for other grants.

(And Barry, if you'd like to help, perhaps you could spearhead the fund
drive you suggested a while back, or find volunteers who would be willing to
key an estimated 150,000 hand-written cards into a database for free. I'm
actually only half joking.)

Wendalyn Nichols
Editorial Director
Random House Reference

-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 5:27 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: booking


George Thompson wrote:
>
> HDAS (I happily follow the lead of Jesse Sheidlower in dropping the
> initials of the infamous publishing house formerly associated with
> this dictionary)

Longterm ADS-L members, or those using the archives, will know that I
have always referred to the _Random House Historical Dictionary
of American Slang_ as the HDAS. Also, Random House is still associated
with it.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  7 23:53:22 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:53:22 EST
Subject: Externships
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.185322.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    "Externships" is in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL, 7 November 2000, pg.
B18, col. 1.  I haven't yet checked Barnhart.  A quick Google check shows the
term used more frequently in universities than in business.

(Stuff from THE MIXER & THE SERVER, later titled the CATERING INDUSTRY
EMPLOYEE, in a few hours.  You'll want to stay up for it!)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 11:27:26 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 19:27:26 +0800
Subject: (RH)HDAS and the long haul
In-Reply-To: <20001107172653.A13835@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.192726.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:26 PM -0500 11/7/00, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>George Thompson wrote:
>>
>>  HDAS (I happily follow the lead of Jesse Sheidlower in dropping the
>>  initials of the infamous publishing house formerly associated with
>>  this dictionary)
>
>Longterm ADS-L members, or those using the archives, will know that I
>have always referred to the _Random House Historical Dictionary
>of American Slang_ as the HDAS. Also, Random House is still associated
>with it.
>
Speaking of which, as soon as I got home I checked my trusty copy of
Volume II and found a nice antedate for that "Haul Off and Kiss Me"
song:

       "Then Lily hauls off and gives me a big kiss."  --Damon Runyan,
in Collier's, 1930

There's also (in addition to the predictable cases of hauling off and
slapping, taking a sock at, driving teeth in, etc.) a 1918 instance
of someone hauling off and stretching the long tall bird on the
floor, a 1923 cite of someone who "throws up his job, hauls off, and
enlists", and even--from Zora Neale Hurston, the foremother of
"doodly-squat"--this lovely sentence from a 1942 piece in the
American Mercury:

       "We hauled off and went to church last Sunday."

As far as I know, none of these writers are Oregonians, so the
Pacific Northwest is still safe from non-violent haul-offs.

larry
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From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov  8 01:00:30 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 20:00:30 -0500
Subject: Haul off and what?
In-Reply-To: <31.c3e79c0.2739d348@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.200030.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

All of Ron's ? and * are fine by me, making me wonder whether or not he is
an authentic haul-off and speaker.

dInIs

>In a message dated 11/7/2000 3:15:24 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
><< Well, mebbe so, and the "haul off and kiss me" case is certainly
>active and physical (without being necessarily all THAT violent, as
>others would predict).  But here's another non-physical example,
>_haul off and marry_, although arguably again for special effect. >>
>
>yeah, it has to be violently physical, or at least metaphorically so
>interpreatable:
>
>*Alex hauled off and played his piano
>*?Alex hauled off and played seventy-two different versions of "Comin' 'Round
>the Mountain" on his piano
>?Alex hauled off and pounded out seventy-two different versions of "Comin'
>'Round the Mountain" on his piano
>
>Haul off and kiss that gal!
>?Haul off and kiss my ass!
>*?You may now haul off and kiss the bride.


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM  Wed Nov  8 02:55:30 2000
From: funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM (Jordan Rich)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:55:30 -0800
Subject: Believe You Me
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.185530.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi,

One of my co-workers was asking me where this phrase came from.  Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Jordan


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  8 03:40:01 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:40:01 EST
Subject: The Mixer and Server (1890-)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.224001.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     From WorldCat:

THE MIXER AND SERVER
   Cincinnati, Ohio: Hotel and Restaurant Employee's International Alliance
and Bartender's International League of America
   1890-1929
   Restaurants--Employees--Labor unions--United States--Periodicals
   Hotels--Employees--Labor Unions--United States--Periodicals
   CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE (succeeding title)
   Serial

   You'll notice that there are two subjects--and neither is "bartenders" nor
"bartending"!
   However, this is a "lost" gem on the order of the JEWISH BAKERS' VOICE.
   The NYPL has it from 1900.  Jere Sullivan wrote for it--he has one
excellent book on drinks that's available only at the Culinary Institute
(NY).  James E. Hickey (who wrote for the BUCKEYE TAVERN and who took over
the syndicated "The Barman's Corner" column) wrote a "Cocktails for Two"
column in the late 1930s.  In the 1940s, the CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE lost
all of its culinary character and became just union stuff.
   I took a look at 1900 and 1901, and then the post-prohibition years of the
1930s.
   The "missing" years 1890-1900 are important.  Supposedly, according to one
theory, there was a bartender named "Martinez" who named the Martinez/Martini
after himself.  There's gotta be some "Martini" in those ten years!
   Here goes:

15 March 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 6, col. 2:
   Have you discovered a new drink?  If so, let us hear what it is, and tell
the boys how it is mixed.

15 May 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 1, col. 3:
   THE ALLAN COCKTAIL.  (In so many words--ed.)
(By Jack Grohusko, head bartender of Baracca's, New York.)
   Three dashes of orange bitters, one dash of maraschino and one-third each
of Fernet bitters, French vermouth and Italian vermouth.  This drink is all
right when you get used to it--but you must get used to it first.  It is said
to be very good for the stomach.
(Also here are Boer Cocktail, The Lucy McCarthy Cocktail, and The Denville
Hotel (NJ) Cocktail--ed.)

15 May 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 1, col. 1--(The "Man Behing the Bar" poem,
by W. Reid Dunroy--ed.)

15 June 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 7, col. 3--Norval cocktail.

15 July 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 7, col. 2:
   _"MAMIE TAYLOR."_
(Philadelphia Special New York WOrld.)
   A New York man has introduced a new drink to Philadelphia; at least, he
says it's new.  It is concocted of cracked ice, Scotch whisky, the juice of a
lime and a bottle of ginger ale.
   The New Yorker invited Edward Green, of Texas, son of Hetty Green, to
sample it, remarking as the statesman from Texas tasted it: "That's the
newest drink out."
   "Probably it is in New York," said Green, "but they have been using it in
Texas for 30 years.  We used to call it 'The Scotch Lassie.'  What do you
call it."  "A 'Mamie Taylor'," said the New Yorker.

15 August 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 3, col. 1--"Know what a 'cucumber' is?
No.  It's an ordinary wine glass filled with crushed ice, poured two-thirds
full of creme de mint, with a top filling of rich cream.  This gives you a
cucumber green capped with a cream white--hence the name, cucumber."

15 November 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 6, col. 2--The Rowdy.

15 December 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 5, col. 1--Nothing succeeds like
success, keep pushing.

15 December 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 14, col. 2--We are something on the
order of our Missouri friend, who said, "you will have to show me."  We are
Texans, and with us it is, "No show, no go."

15 January 1901, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 1, col. 2--In the words of Chimmy
Fadden, "You might match 'em, but you can't beat 'em."

15 September 1901, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 6, col. 2--Golden Rule City.
(Toledo--ed.)

15 November 1901, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 21, col. 1--...when questions arise
which cause long debate, commonly called "Rag Chewing"...

12 January 1934, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 21--(Recipes from Jake
Didier's DIDIER'S REMINDER contain Brooklyn Cocktail, Brown Cocktail, and
Cornell Cocktail--ed.)

12 August 1935, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 21--(Drinks by a Cleveland
local--ed.)

12 September 1935, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 24--(More drinks by the
Cleveland local include Millionaire and Million Dollars--ed.)

12 October 1935, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 21--(Fizzes, Collinses,
Punches and Flipps by the Cleveland local--ed.)

12 December 1935, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 32, col. 1--Diners at "The
Trading Post" (Chicago--ed.) have access to a rare treat in Breast of Chicken
a la Kiev, a dish known to few chefs and one requiring expert attention.  Its
mysterious feature lies in the retention of a butter filling even after
cooking.  It is prepared as follows...

12 January 1936, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 23--(Rickeys, Slings,
Cobblers, and Daisies by the Cleveland local--ed.)

12 March 1937, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 47--Sugar  City.  (Crockett,
CA--ed.)

12 August 1937, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 33, col. 1--Chicken
Cacciatore.

12 January 1938, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, "Cocktails for Two by James E.
Hickey," pg. 31, col. 1--The recent International Cocktail Competition held
in London disclosed in the American entries many significant cocktail trends.
(...)  One San Francisco, Calif., bartender enetered what was in fact a West
Indies Daiquiri, using shaved ice and an electric mixing machine, and
substituted applejack for rum.  He named it "The Big Apple."  (After the
dance--ed.)

12 March 1938, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, "INTERNATIONAL COCKTAIL
COMPETITIONS--1937," pg. 35, col. 2:
FLANAGAN SPECIAL
   Into mixing glass filled with ice put
   3/4 Jigger Cream
   1 Jigger Gilbey's London Dry Gin
   1/4 Jigger White Creme de Menthe
Submitted by Alfred M. Wood, Hotel Flanagan, Malone, N. Y.
(...)
THE BIG APPLE (RED)
   1 Jigger Apple Jack Brandy
   1 Dash Lemon Juice
   1 Barspoon Orange Curacao
   1/3 Jigger Grenadine Syrup
   Place on an electric mixer until thick.  (This may also be Green)
Submitted by Harry H. Gregg, New Dalt Hotel, San Francisco, Calif.

12 July 1938, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, "Cocktails for Two by James E.
Hickey," pg. 33, col. 2--The Cuba Libre is zooming up to new popularity
heights already this summer...It is rum and Coca-COla, and the prim Coca-COla
people don't like the idea so much.


--------------------------------------------------------
7 February 1925, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 7, col. 1 ad for Geo. Thompson & Son,
"All Varieties Oysters and Clams," Foot Pike Street, New York City,
Telephone: Drydock 2933-2934-5658:

   _You've tried the Rest, Now--Try the Best_

(Fred Shapiro should record this phrase, and that George Thompson is the
best--ed.)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 15:02:23 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 23:02:23 +0800
Subject: booking
In-Reply-To: <1A9672E4FDB@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.230223.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:40 AM -0500 11/7/00, GEORGE THOMPSON wrote:
>   I am also put in mind of a stanza from an old
>country blues called "Keys to the Highway".  I've not heard this for
>many years, and my very limited blues CD collection doesn't include
>it, so I can't refesh my memory.  Are there any blues hounds in our
>coven?  I recall the version I knew to have been recorded by Big
>Bill Broonzy, probably in the 1930s or 1940s.  In any event, as I
>recall, the stanza goes:  "I've got the keys to the highway, I'm
>booked up and bound to go, I'm gone to leave here running, cause
>walking is most too slow."  Here there is a connection between being
>booked up and the desire for speed.
>
Eric Clapton has a wonderful cover of this piece, very bluesy and
almost ten minutes long, on the Derek and the Dominos album, but it
doesn't sound like there's any "booking", though.  Best I can make
out the verse it's something like

I got the key [yes, singular] to the highway
Deep down in my soul
Got to leave here running
Walking's just too slow.

larry


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Nov  8 09:23:01 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 04:23:01 -0500
Subject: synonyms for squeaker
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.042301.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Perhaps the Word of the Year will be found in the flood of synonyms for
"squeaker" that journalist (both electronic and print) will produce in
the wake of the election.

Regards,
David Barnhart

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From lingthings at YAHOO.COM  Wed Nov  8 13:07:47 2000
From: lingthings at YAHOO.COM (David Sanders)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 05:07:47 -0800
Subject: Election Coverage
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.050747.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Did anybody happen to tape the first couple of hours
of Dan Rather's election coverage on CBS last night?
He must have used a dozen or more expressions for how
tight the race was.  All were interesting, and about
half I had never heard before!  Most of them struck me
as Southern, but that's a largely uninformed opinion,
and I was wondering if anybody happened to catch them.

David Sanders

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From monickels at EXCITE.COM  Wed Nov  8 13:12:14 2000
From: monickels at EXCITE.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 05:12:14 -0800
Subject: synonyms for squeaker
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.051214.0800.>

>  Perhaps the Word of the Year will be found in the flood of synonyms for
>  "squeaker" that journalist (both electronic and print) will produce in
>  the wake of the election.

I've heard one here in France (I hope I have this right): "Il est un
mouchoir dans poche." Literally, "it's a pocket hankerchief."





_______________________________________________________
Say Bye to Slow Internet!
http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html


From jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM  Wed Nov  8 13:44:13 2000
From: jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM (Jeffrey William McKeough)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:44:13 -0500
Subject: Election Coverage
In-Reply-To: <20001108130747.42406.qmail@web9708.mail.yahoo.com> from "David
 Sanders" at Nov 08, 2000 05:07:47 AM
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.084413.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David Sanders wrote:
>
>Did anybody happen to tape the first couple of hours
>of Dan Rather's election coverage on CBS last night?
>He must have used a dozen or more expressions for how
>tight the race was.  All were interesting, and about
>half I had never heard before!  Most of them struck me
>as Southern, but that's a largely uninformed opinion,
>and I was wondering if anybody happened to catch them.

You're in luck.  Before I got sick of his theatrics and switched
channels, I started writing them down, though I don't have the context
for them all:

     One race was "nasty enough to gag a buzzard".

     At some point during the counting he said that (I think)
     someone's lead could "melt faster than ice cream in a microwave".

     He asked the chairman of the Gore campaign if his "fingernails
     [were] sweating".

     The Florida race (again, I think) was "hot enough to peel
     housepaint".

     "crackling like a hickory fire".

     "lead shakier than cafeteria jell-o"

     The New Jersey senate candidate "spent money like he had shorted
     Microsoft".

     "smiling like a cat in a creamery" (possibly Bush, but I'm not
     sure)

     Gore's trying to win without taking Florida would be "like trying
     to scratch his ear with his elbow".

     Bush (if something happened, don't know what) would be "mad as a
     rained-on rooster".

So do you suppose "ice cream in a microwave" is a genuine Southernism?
:-)

--
Jeffrey William McKeough   For Drainage, Punch Out The X: X
jwm at spdcc.com  (or spdcc.net if that bounces)
"Well it was more than 5 years ago for me, but if you
spent a lot of time moving really fast you may be OK." -Oly


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Wed Nov  8 14:30:58 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:30:58 -0500
Subject: booking
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.093058.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The song in question is actually Robert Johnson's Terraplane Blues.

Here are the lyrics, taken from "Harry's Blues Lyrics Online."

http://blueslyrics.tripod.com/artistswithsongs/robert_johnson_3.htm#terraplane_blues



                    And I feel so lonesome, you hear me when I moan
                    When I feel so lonesome, you hear me when I moan
                    Who been drivin' my Terraplane1, for you since I been gone.

                    I'd said I flash your lights, mama, you horn won't even blow
                    (spoken: Somebody's been runnin' my batteries down on this machine)
                    I even flash my lights, mama, this horn won't even blow
                    Got a short in this connection, hoo well, babe, it's way down below

                    I'm gion' heist your hood, mama, I'm bound to check your oil
                    I'm goin' heist your hood, mama, mmm, I'm bound to check your oil
                    I got a woman that I'm lovin', way down in Arkansas

                    Now, you know the coils ain't even buzzin', little generator won't get the spark
                    Motor's in a bad condition, you gotta have these batteries charged
                    But I'm cryin', pleease, pleease don't do me wrong.
                    Who been drivin' my Terraplane1 now for, you since I been gone.

                    Mr. highway man, please don't block the road
                    Puh hee hee, please don't block the road
                    'Cause she's reachin' a cold one hundred and I'm booked and I got to go

                    Mmm mmm mmm mmm mmm
                    Yoo ooo ooo ooo, you hear me weep and moan
                    Who been drivin' my Terraplane1 now for, you since I been gone

                    I'm gon' get down in this connection, keep on tanglin' with your wires
                    I'm gon' get down in this connection, oh well, keep on tanglin' with these wires
                    And when I mash down on your little starter, then your spark plug will give me fire

                    __________
                    Note 1: the Terraplane was a 1930's car model of the Hudson Motor Company, see a picture and read more about it.


Joe





Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on 11/07/2000
10:02:23 AM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sent by:  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
cc:
Subject:  Re: booking


At 11:40 AM -0500 11/7/00, GEORGE THOMPSON wrote:
>   I am also put in mind of a stanza from an old
>country blues called "Keys to the Highway".  I've not heard this for
>many years, and my very limited blues CD collection doesn't include
>it, so I can't refesh my memory.  Are there any blues hounds in our
>coven?  I recall the version I knew to have been recorded by Big
>Bill Broonzy, probably in the 1930s or 1940s.  In any event, as I
>recall, the stanza goes:  "I've got the keys to the highway, I'm
>booked up and bound to go, I'm gone to leave here running, cause
>walking is most too slow."  Here there is a connection between being
>booked up and the desire for speed.
>
Eric Clapton has a wonderful cover of this piece, very bluesy and
almost ten minutes long, on the Derek and the Dominos album, but it
doesn't sound like there's any "booking", though.  Best I can make
out the verse it's something like

I got the key [yes, singular] to the highway
Deep down in my soul
Got to leave here running
Walking's just too slow.

larry


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Wed Nov  8 15:20:49 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 07:20:49 -0800
Subject: booking
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.072049.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
> At 11:40 AM -0500 11/7/00, GEORGE THOMPSON wrote:
> >   I am also put in mind of a stanza from an old
> >country blues called "Keys to the Highway".  I've
> not heard this for
> >many years, and my very limited blues CD collection
> doesn't include
> >it, so I can't refesh my memory.  Are there any
> blues hounds in our
> >coven?  I recall the version I knew to have been
> recorded by Big
> >Bill Broonzy, probably in the 1930s or 1940s.  In
> any event, as I
> >recall, the stanza goes:  "I've got the keys to the
> highway, I'm
> >booked up and bound to go, I'm gone to leave here
> running, cause
> >walking is most too slow."  Here there is a
> connection between being
> >booked up and the desire for speed.

Or, my schedule is set, my agenda's full, my plans are
made, I'm going to have plenty to do, no sitting
around with regrets of leaving ... I'm booked up ...
plenty of possible meanings that have nothing to do
with speed.



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Wed Nov  8 15:36:15 2000
From: debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:36:15 -0600
Subject: english only passes in utah
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.093615.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FYI, from today's Salt Lake Tribune on-line edition:




It's Official: English Only, ACLU considers legal challenge; voters pass
seizure, sale restriction
 Wednesday, November 8, 2000


BY HEATHER MAY and JUDY FAHYS
THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE

    Utah became the 26th state to declare English as its official language
as voters approved a measure lawmakers had failed to pass on three previous
occasions.
    Only one county voted down Initiative A -- San Juan.
    Utahns also passed Initiative B, forbidding police and prosecutors from
seizing and selling property involved in a crime in which the owner is not
involved.
    Joe Hunter, spokesman for Utahns for Official English, acknowledged the
campaign had been "somewhat controversial and at times emotional, perhaps
more than it should have been. The voters saw the initiative for what it is:
A much simpler and much more common sense measure than some of the opponents
made it out to be."
    The measure received strong opposition from several politicians, civic
groups, church leaders and educators.
    The law requires government business to be conducted in English, with
exceptions for tourism, health, law enforcement and court proceedings, in
schools, universities and libraries. It also encourages the state to
initiate and expand English as a Second Language programs to help
immigrants.
    Before the election, there was still much uncertainty over what its
impact would be.
    Opponents say the law will prevent non-English speakers from obtaining
vital government services and will make them feel like second-class
citizens.
    "We're not terribly surprised, but we are terribly disappointed," said
Lorna Vogt, of Utah Common Voices. Her group, comprising 80 organizations
who opposed the measure, couldn't overcome the vast resources of U.S.
English, the national group that got the measure on the ballot in Utah.
Since 1998, when U.S. English starting gathering signatures, the lobbying
and research group has outspent its opponents almost 7 to 1, or $282,190 vs.
$42,149.
    Vogt also said voters didn't understand the measure.
    "They had it in their minds that it was a very simple gesture that
seemed to make sense on the surface," she said.
    The Utah chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union will "likely"
file a lawsuit, claiming violation of equal protection and freedom of
speech, Utah's ACLU director Carol Gnade said. . . . [rest of article is on
another, unrelated ballot proposal]


© Copyright 2000, The Salt Lake Tribune All material found on Utah OnLine is
copyrighted The Salt Lake Tribune and associated news services. No material
may be reproduced or reused without explicit permission from The Salt Lake
Tribune.





___________________
[Please note: this message may contain a phantom attachment which you should
ignore.]

Dennis Baron, Head                       debaron at uiuc.edu
Department of English                            217-333-2390
University of Illinois                          fax: 217-333-4321
608 S. Wright St.      http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron
Urbana, IL 61801


From nyinstitute at VIABCP.COM  Wed Nov  8 15:57:26 2000
From: nyinstitute at VIABCP.COM (nyinstitute)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:57:26 -0500
Subject: Election Coverage
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.105726.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

after "about a dozen" it became boring as he continued to use as many trite
clichés as he could think of. The night`s total was in the hundreds.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Sanders" <lingthings at YAHOO.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 8:07 AM
Subject: Election Coverage


> Did anybody happen to tape the first couple of hours
> of Dan Rather's election coverage on CBS last night?
> He must have used a dozen or more expressions for how
> tight the race was.  All were interesting, and about
> half I had never heard before!  Most of them struck me
> as Southern, but that's a largely uninformed opinion,
> and I was wondering if anybody happened to catch them.
>
> David Sanders
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/
>


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Wed Nov  8 16:15:53 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:15:53 +0000
Subject: english only passes in utah
In-Reply-To: <744DBC8BC3FBD01192C200A0C96BA7BD02D145FD@ntx1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.161553.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>     Utahns also passed Initiative B, forbidding police and prosecutors from
>seizing and selling property involved in a crime in which the owner is not
>involved.
>     Joe Hunter, spokesman for Utahns for Official English, acknowledged the
>campaign had been "somewhat controversial and at times emotional, perhaps

I've never seen the word "Utahns" before.  Is the 'n' syllabic?

Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Wed Nov  8 16:47:36 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:47:36 EST
Subject: HDAS
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.114736.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I wrote that in using HDAS I was "dropping the initials of the
infamous publishing house formerly associated with this dictionary".

        Jesse Sheidlower responds to assure me that "Random House is still
associated with it".

        To which I say, Aint that a shame.  And I stand by the phrase
"infamous publishing house", and will continue to refer to Random
House as "the infamous publishing house" until I have vol. 3 in
my hands.

GAT


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Wed Nov  8 16:59:24 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:59:24 -0800
Subject: english only passes in utah
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.085924.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK> wrote:
>
> I've never seen the word "Utahns" before.  Is the
> 'n' syllabic?

> Lynne

No.  The fed's tried to convince us we were "Utahans"
a while back, but that fell flat on its face.  If my
recall isn't totally fuzzy, Sen. Hatch even brought up
on the Senate floor the question as to whether the
Federal government was to refer to a resident of Utah
as "Utahn" (prefered and used locally) or "Utahan"
(official fed usage at the time).  I don't recall
whether or not there was ever an "official"
resolution.


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Nov  8 17:01:26 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:01:26 -0800
Subject: Ground zero
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.090126.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A question for the word sleuths on the list.

"Ground zero" has been around a long time, but until this election I heard
it only as the designation of the exact point where a nuclear bomb actually
lands.  (O.k., I wouldn't swear that I never heard it extended to refer to
a conventional bomb, maybe even other kinds of explosions, such as the
eruption of Mt. St. Helens.)

In this election, a new meaning has suddenly (at least for me) sprung up,
with all the media using "ground zero" to indicate a geographical entity
(state, county, region, whatever) whose votes are crucial to the outcome of
the election, or which is the focus of intense media and party attention
because its votes are seen to be crucial.  I don't quite understand the
connection with an explosion: has there been some intermediate stage in
this development that I've missed?  Has anybody heard or seen this latest
usage before the current election?

Peter Mc.
(Writing from Oregon, which didn't turn out to be "ground zero" after all.)

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From sagehen at SLIC.COM  Wed Nov  8 17:17:14 2000
From: sagehen at SLIC.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:17:14 -0500
Subject: haul off &...
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.121714.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter writes:
>Thanks, Allen!  And to think I was just about to haul off and recant in the
>face of all Larry's examples.  Us Northwesterners gotta stick to
>our...verbs.  Today the ADS, tomorrow the Electoral College!<


Though no longer an Oregonian, I join the others in the strong sense of
motion in "haul off &..."  To me it suggests the backward movement of the
arm & shoulder, cocking the fist for a blow.
"Gone and V-ed" is very familiar to me, especially from childhood in the
Midwest.  I think I'd only have used it in talking with other children, and
that a little self-consciously.  It has the feel of being an extension of
the normal future construction of  "going to V."
A. Murie


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Nov  8 17:24:15 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:24:15 -0800
Subject: english only passes in utah
In-Reply-To: <20001108165924.12102.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.092415.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Interesting!  Do Utahns pronounce the name of their state as the spelling
would indicate (with final [a:]) or as "Utaw," as I've always pronounced it
and, to my knowledge, heard it.  "Utahn" seems a logical spelling if the
state is [ju:ta:], but somehow less so if it's [ju:t):].  Maybe this has
something to do with the federal-Utah disagreement.

Peter Mc.

--On Wed, Nov 8, 2000 8:59 AM -0800 James Smith
<jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> --- Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK> wrote:
>>
>> I've never seen the word "Utahns" before.  Is the
>> 'n' syllabic?
>
>> Lynne
>
> No.  The fed's tried to convince us we were "Utahans"
> a while back, but that fell flat on its face.  If my
> recall isn't totally fuzzy, Sen. Hatch even brought up
> on the Senate floor the question as to whether the
> Federal government was to refer to a resident of Utah
> as "Utahn" (prefered and used locally) or "Utahan"
> (official fed usage at the time).  I don't recall
> whether or not there was ever an "official"
> resolution.
>
>
> =====
> James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
> SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
>                                |or slowly and cautiously.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Nov  8 17:19:08 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:19:08 -0500
Subject: Ground zero
In-Reply-To: <193548.3182662886@dhcp-218-200-211.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.121908.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't believe that the use of "ground zero" in these instances necessarily
means that an explosion is imminent so much as that area or locale has
become a target of great concern--that all eyes and expectations are focused
on that spot.  The explosion, in terms of political fallout, etc., would of
course in this use be metaphoric.

bob

> From: "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:01:26 -0800
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Ground zero
>
> A question for the word sleuths on the list.
>
> "Ground zero" has been around a long time, but until this election I heard
> it only as the designation of the exact point where a nuclear bomb actually
> lands.  (O.k., I wouldn't swear that I never heard it extended to refer to
> a conventional bomb, maybe even other kinds of explosions, such as the
> eruption of Mt. St. Helens.)
>
> In this election, a new meaning has suddenly (at least for me) sprung up,
> with all the media using "ground zero" to indicate a geographical entity
> (state, county, region, whatever) whose votes are crucial to the outcome of
> the election, or which is the focus of intense media and party attention
> because its votes are seen to be crucial.  I don't quite understand the
> connection with an explosion: has there been some intermediate stage in
> this development that I've missed?  Has anybody heard or seen this latest
> usage before the current election?
>
> Peter Mc.
> (Writing from Oregon, which didn't turn out to be "ground zero" after all.)
>
> ****************************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw
> Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
> pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From kurtpatt at ISU.EDU  Wed Nov  8 17:32:05 2000
From: kurtpatt at ISU.EDU (kurtpatt)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:32:05 -0700
Subject: Election Coverage
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.103205.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I didn't catch Rather's expressiosns, but on MSNBC, they kept saying
"tight as a tick."

Patti Kurtz

David Sanders wrote:

> Did anybody happen to tape the first couple of hours
> of Dan Rather's election coverage on CBS last night?
> He must have used a dozen or more expressions for how
> tight the race was.  All were interesting, and about
> half I had never heard before!  Most of them struck me
> as Southern, but that's a largely uninformed opinion,
> and I was wondering if anybody happened to catch them.
>
> David Sanders
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From Amcolph at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  8 18:13:51 2000
From: Amcolph at AOL.COM (Ray Ott)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:13:51 EST
Subject: Election Coverage
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.131351.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Maybe he thought that the right thing for those to guys to do under the
surcumstances was to go out and tie one on.

Ray Ott


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  8 18:25:50 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:25:50 EST
Subject: Haul off and what?
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.132550.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/7/00 7:57:34 PM, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:

<< All of Ron's ? and * are fine by me, making me wonder whether or not he is
an authentic haul-off and speaker. >>

nah, it just means that Preston has only one register


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  8 18:28:10 2000
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:28:10 EST
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.132810.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've heard the "(done) gone and V-ed," "(done) went and V-ed," and even "up
and "V-ed"--all of which I construe as the speaker's attempt to report not
just the act (V-ed) but his/her shock/suprise at (disbelief of or contempt
for) that act.  Compare the following:
            A.  He (done) gone and killed his mama.
            B.  He went and killed his mama.
            C.  He up and killed his mama.
My interpretation of all three is that the speaker is that the first "verb"
in the conjoined pair should not be interpreted literally; rather, it has a
pragmatic purpose:
to express the speaker's negative reaction to the act itself.
                                PAT


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  8 18:49:40 2000
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:49:40 EST
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.134940.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Also a native Alabamian (living in Montgomery for over 2 decades), I've heard
"hauled off and V-ed" used only in cases of outrage over some devastating or
forceful action, such as hitting, slapping, kicking, biting.  Thus, I would
interpret "hauled off and V-ed" as not only expressing contempt for or
outrage over the action but also capturing the initiation of the act -- that
is, the actor's preparing to perform the action (e.g., positioning the hand
or foot to effect desired degree of impact).        PAT


From afaber at MAIL.WESLEYAN.EDU  Wed Nov  8 19:02:59 2000
From: afaber at MAIL.WESLEYAN.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:02:59 -0500
Subject: english only passes in utah
In-Reply-To: <20001108165924.12102.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.140259.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James Smith said:
>--- Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK> wrote:
> >
> > I've never seen the word "Utahns" before.  Is the
> > 'n' syllabic?
>
> > Lynne
>
>No.  The fed's tried to convince us we were "Utahans"
>a while back, but that fell flat on its face.  If my
>recall isn't totally fuzzy, Sen. Hatch even brought up
>on the Senate floor the question as to whether the
>Federal government was to refer to a resident of Utah
>as "Utahn" (prefered and used locally) or "Utahan"
>(official fed usage at the time).  I don't recall
>whether or not there was ever an "official"
>resolution.
>
Somewhere in my files, I have a copy of an article from the Salt Lake
Tribune that Marianna sent me when we were working on one of our Utah
speech papers. One of my colleagues had questioned our use of "Utahn"
as opposed to "Utahan" in the ms. While this colleague ordinarily has
very good instincts about English style, we did have to convince him
that we couldn't possibly say "Utahan".

--
Alice Faber, Manager                                         (860) 685-2954
Infant Language Development Laboratory                  afaber at wesleyan.edu
400 Judd Hall--Wesleyan University                               or
Middletown, CT 06459                                 faber at haskins.yale.edu


From lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU  Wed Nov  8 19:59:35 2000
From: lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU (Sonja L. Lanehart)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:59:35 -0500
Subject: ground zero
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.145935.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I recall reading an e-mail asking about 'ground zero.' Lo and behold,
I was reading Rickford and Rickford's _Spoken Soul_ (2000:186) and
read the following:

"Not surprisingly, the King case would roil Michigan and rattle the
presses for some time. Between July 1977 and February 1981, nearly
five hundred news stories on the case were published. The prim
community of Ann Arbor was not to become ground zero for Ebonics on
the scale of Oakland (the city where Black Panther radicalism
started, after all), but shock waves from the judgment would indeed
be felt throughout the county, with dozens of newspaper commentators
piling on to snuff out any sympathy for Black English."

--SL

***************************************************
Sonja L. Lanehart
Department of English      706-542-2260 (office)
University of Georgia      706-542-1261 (messages)
300 Park Hall              706-542-2181 (fax)
Athens, GA 30605-6205      lanehart at arches.uga.edu
***************************************************


From madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Wed Nov  8 20:26:46 2000
From: madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:26:46 -0800
Subject: Election Coverage
In-Reply-To: <c3.ad207b8.273af1df@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.122646.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

my favorites were the extended metaphor for a close race "hot and tight,
as hot and tight as a [wet?] swimsuit on a two-[?]hour drive drive back
from the beach," and the riff on "if," in response to his colleague's
hypothetical scenario, "if a frog had side pockets he'd have [carry?]
handguns."

my mother is a transplanted southerner, and some of dan's extemporizing
reminded me of hers.  one difference:  she will reel off half of
_bartlett's familiar quotations_ without attribution; he at least
mentioned "the good book" in connection with the race not always being won
by the swift.

sylvia swift
madonna at socrates.berkeley.edu


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov  8 07:30:12 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:30:12 +0800
Subject: ground zero
In-Reply-To: <v0422080db62f60356238@[128.192.25.71]>
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.153012.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I recall reading an e-mail asking about 'ground zero.' Lo and behold,
>I was reading Rickford and Rickford's _Spoken Soul_ (2000:186) and
>read the following:
>
>"Not surprisingly, the King case would roil Michigan and rattle the
>presses for some time. Between July 1977 and February 1981, nearly
>five hundred news stories on the case were published. The prim
>community of Ann Arbor was not to become ground zero for Ebonics on
>the scale of Oakland (the city where Black Panther radicalism
>started, after all), but shock waves from the judgment would indeed
>be felt throughout the county, with dozens of newspaper commentators
>piling on to snuff out any sympathy for Black English."
>
>--SL

Nobody's mentioned in this thread the frequent reanalysis of "ground
zero" as "square one", as in "Now (e.g. after the verdict was
overturned) we have to go back to ground zero".  No explosion, even
metaphorical, OR focus involved here.  (A bugbear of prescriptivists
a while back, to be sure.)

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov  8 07:48:56 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:48:56 +0800
Subject: Election Coverage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0011081216190.28795-100000@socrates.Berkeley.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.154856.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>my favorites were the extended metaphor for a close race "hot and tight,
>as hot and tight as a [wet?] swimsuit on a two-[?]hour drive drive back
>from the beach," and the riff on "if," in response to his colleague's
>hypothetical scenario, "if a frog had side pockets he'd have [carry?]
>handguns."
>
>my mother is a transplanted southerner, and some of dan's extemporizing
>reminded me of hers.  one difference:  she will reel off half of
>_bartlett's familiar quotations_ without attribution; he at least
>mentioned "the good book" in connection with the race not always being won
>by the swift.

except I seem to recall Dan gave the quote in its unabridged form:

"The race is not always to the swift nor the battle to the strong,
but that's the way to bet"

--which I believe is Damon Runyan's riff on the biblical passage.

larry


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Nov  8 21:44:23 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:44:23 -0500
Subject: "money" as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.164423.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In HDAS, under _money_ 'friend (in direct address)' (e.g.
"Yo, money, whassup?"), we have two examples where this
_money_ is functioning as a quasi-pronoun: "Money
[i.e. 'he'] can rap" and "Leave money [i.e. 'him']
alone".

I have a vague sense that I've encountered this elsewhere, or
that it is at least slightly common, but I can't find any
additional examples. Parallel examples with other AAVE
direct-address terms sound plausible to my ear (e.g.
"Homes was doin' great!" (invented ex.)), but I can't find
evidence for them either.

Is anyone familiar with this usage--preferably with
examples, but at least able to confirm or refute my
suspicion that the construction has at least some
currency? Is this construction or parallels used
in any other way?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Nov  9 01:31:42 2000
From: mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko Mufwene)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:31:42 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Death of Chas Hockett
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.173142.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


>>  Charles  Francis Hockett of 145 North Sunset Drive, Ithaca, New York
>>died at
>>the  Cayuga Medical Center on November 3, 2000 after a short illness. He was
>>84.
>>
>>Hockett was the fourth child of Homer Carey and Amy Francisco  Hockett. He
>>was
>>born in Columbus, Ohio on January 17, 1916. He was educated  in the public
>>schools of Columbus and Worthington, Ohio and graduated from  the Ohio State
>>University, receiving both the BA (summa cum laude) and the  MA (high
>>distinction in history) in June, 1936. Thereafter he attended Yale
>>University
>>for three years, with financial aid first from the Social Science  Research
>>Council and then from the American Council of Learned Societies. He  studied
>>under Edward Sapir, George P. Murdock, Leslie Spier, Morris Swadesh,  George
>>L. Trager, and Benjamin J. Whorf, majoring in anthropology and  linguistics.
>>He was awarded the PhD in June, 1939, with a dissertation based  on
fieldwork
>>with the Potawatomi Indians of Northern Wisconsin.
>>
>>After  a summer of fieldwork with the Kickapoo Indians of Oklahoma, an
autumn
>>in  Michoacán, Mexico, and two years of postdoctoral study at the
>>Universities
>>of Chicago and Michigan, the former with Leonard Bloomfield, Hockett was
>>drafted into the United States Army in February of 1942. On furlough in
>>April
>>of that year, he married Shirley Orlinoff of Queens, New York. His  basic
>>training in the army was in antiaircraft artillery, followed by a few
months
>>helping to prepare other recruits for Officer Candidate School. But  then he
>>was transferred to Army Service Forces and given duties that made  use of
his
>>civilian expertise: in late 1942 he accompanied a shipment of  officers to
>>General Stillwell s headquarters in Bengal, India, supervising  their
>>learning
>>of Chinese while en route. Returning from that mission,  Hockett was
>>stationed
>>for several years in New York City, preparing  language-training materials
>>for
>>the armed forces. He was commissioned second  lieutenant in 1943, and
>>promoted
>>to first lieutenant in 1945. After the  surrender of Japan he was dispatched
>>via the Philippines to Tokyo to help  train American troops in Japanese. In
>>February of 1946 he was separated from  the army, with a terminal-leave
>>promotion to captain. With that rank he was  called back for the summer of
>>1950 to help in the training of officers in  foreign languages at the
>>Praesidio of Monterey, California.
>>
>>In 1945,  after a summer s work in New York City on Clarence L. Barnhart s
>>American  College Dictionary, Hockett came to Cornell University as an
>>Assistant  Professor of Linguistics in charge of elementary Chinese. He
>>joined
>>the  newly founded Division of Modern Languages under the directorship of
>>the
>>late J. Milton Cowan. In due time, at Cornell, Hockett was promoted to
>>Associate Professor, to full Professor, and finally to a Goldwin Smith
>>Professorship, his rank at the time of retirement in 1982.
>>
>>While on  the Cornell faculty, Hockett headed a team preparing a basic
>>pattern
>>for a  series of textbooks in English as a second language. In 1955 he pu
>>blished an  elementary textbook of linguistics [A Course in Modern
>>Linguistics] (with  translations into
>>Spanish, Polish, and Chinese) that was the standard in the  field for about
>>twenty years. Hockett regarded his introductory textbook in  anthropology
>>[Man's Place in Nature]
>>(1973) as his best scholarly work even  though it was a commercial
>>failure. He
>>published many technical papers,  mostly in linguistics, and he supervised
>>the
>>work of about 90 graduate  students working for an MA or PhD, who are now
>>teaching at universities all  over the world.
>>
>>During the fifties, Hockett was on the staff of the  Linguistic
Institutes of
>>the Linguistic Society of America at Indiana  University and the
>>University of
>>Michigan. He taught at the Canadian Summer  School of Linguistics in
>>Edmonton,
>>Alberta in 1960. In 1960-1961 he was  Carnegie Visiting Professor of
>>Linguistics at the University of Hawaii. At  various times he gave
>>lectures at
>>Freiburg im Breisgau; in Düsseldorf;  twice, at an interval of thirty years,
>>in Grenoble; in 1972 at the  Linguistic Institute held at the University of
>>Illinois; in 1991 in Denton,  Texas, to the Linguistic Association of the
>>Southwest. For four months in  the fall of 1986 Hockett lectured on
>>linguistics at the Beiping Foreign  Studies University. He was president of
>>the Linguistic Society of America in  1972, president of the Linguistic
>>Association of Canada and the United  States in 1982, and Distinguished
>>Lecturer of the American Anthropological  Association in 1986. Beginning in
>>1986, he was first Visiting Professor,  then Adjunct Professor of
>>Linguistics,
>>at Rice University in Houston, Texas,  an appointment still in effect at the
>>time of his death.
>>
>>Hockett was  elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 1972
and
>>to the  National Academy of Science in 1973.
>>
>>Hockett was a well trained musician,  playing flute and piccolo in high
>>school
>>and college, later switching to  bass clarinet, which he played for many
>>years
>>in the Ithaca Concert Band. As  a composer, he produced piano music, songs,
>>several marches, an opera (given  two performances by the Ithaca Opera
>>Association in 1973 at Ithaca College),  a concertino for cello and wind
>>ensemble, and chamber music, the last  especially for combinations including
>>oboe or cello. In April of 2000 a  concert of his music was performed at
>>Ithaca College by his daughter,  pianist Alpha Hockett Walker, and her
>>husband
>>David Weiss, principal oboist  of the Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra.
>>
>>Hockett is survived by a  loving family: his wife Shirley Hockett, daughter
>>Alpha Hockett Walker and  husband David Weiss (now of Los Angeles), son
Asher
>>Orlinoff Hockett and  wife Jane McLarty (of Ithaca), daughter Amy Robin Rose
>>and husband Eddie  Sackett (now of Detroit), daughter Rachel Hockett
Youngman
>>and husband  Richard Youngman (now of Cambria, California), and daughter
>>Carey
>>Beth  Hockett (now of London, England). There are also five grandchildren:
>>Rachel s children Charles H. and Annie H. Kee; and Alpha s children Carly,
>>Luke, and Hannah Walker.
>>A celebration of Hockett s life is planned for  the spring of 2001. Anyone
>>wishing to make a contribution in his memory  should direct it to the School
>>of Music of Ithaca College, which he  enthusiastically supported.
>>
>>(Text as it appeared in the Ithaca Journal,  6 November 2000)    
>>
> 
**********************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
**********************************************************
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From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov  9 08:08:36 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:08:36 +0100
Subject: money as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.090836.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

On mercredi 8 novembre 2000 22:44, Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:
>In HDAS, under _money_ 'friend (in direct address)' (e.g.
>"Yo, money, whassup?"), we have two examples where this
>_money_ is functioning as a quasi-pronoun: "Money
>[i.e. 'he'] can rap" and "Leave money [i.e. 'him']
>alone".

>Is anyone familiar with this usage--preferably with
>examples, but at least able to confirm or refute my
>suspicion that the construction has at least some
>currency? Is this construction or parallels used
>in any other way?

I think you should check out the movie "Swingers." It's a Nineties white kid cult
classic, and although "money" is used as in "You are so money" in a notable scene, I
suspect you'll find your quasi-pronoun usage there as well.


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov  9 08:13:47 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:13:47 +0100
Subject: Election Coverage
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.091347.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

On mercredi 8 novembre 2000 14:07, David Sanders <lingthings at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>Did anybody happen to tape the first couple of hours
>of Dan Rather's election coverage on CBS last night?
>He must have used a dozen or more expressions for how
>tight the race was.  All were interesting, and about
>half I had never heard before!  Most of them struck me
>as Southern, but that's a largely uninformed opinion,
>and I was wondering if anybody happened to catch them.

Check out Modern Humorist's relatd quiz:

http://modernhumorist.com/mh/0011/rather/


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Nov  9 10:19:56 2000
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 02:19:56 -0800
Subject: "money" as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.021956.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Girlfriend was lookin' good!"
"The brotha was fine!"

--- Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:
> In HDAS, under _money_ 'friend (in direct address)'
> (e.g.
> "Yo, money, whassup?"), we have two examples where
> this
> _money_ is functioning as a quasi-pronoun: "Money
> [i.e. 'he'] can rap" and "Leave money [i.e. 'him']
> alone".
>
> I have a vague sense that I've encountered this
> elsewhere, or
> that it is at least slightly common, but I can't
> find any
> additional examples. Parallel examples with other
> AAVE
> direct-address terms sound plausible to my ear (e.g.
> "Homes was doin' great!" (invented ex.)), but I
> can't find
> evidence for them either.
>
> Is anyone familiar with this usage--preferably with
> examples, but at least able to confirm or refute my
> suspicion that the construction has at least some
> currency? Is this construction or parallels used
> in any other way?
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED


=====
Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Associate Professor - English and Linguistics
& University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
757-727-5769 (voice);757-727-5421 (fax);757-851-5773(home)
e-mail:  mlee303 at yahoo.com   or   margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Nov  9 11:27:48 2000
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 06:27:48 -0500
Subject: JAZZ (or, Ken Burns gets it wrong!)
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.062748.0500.ABATEFR@EARTHLINK.NET>

Burns's research in his baseball series was very weak, in my view, as an
ardent fan.  I don't think it is his strong suit.  This led me to question
the research (that actually makes it to the final edit) and balance in any
of his stuff, including his "Civil War".

Frank Abate


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov  9 12:34:22 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:34:22 +0100
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.133422.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

Has there been any work done one the construction "gives good X"? My guess is that
it comes from "gives good head" but as can be seen in the quote below, we're a long
way from that now.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,393879,00.html

"Clinton stepped forward as the calmer voice, leading the Oklahoma families in
mourning. Perhaps for the first time, he looked presidential - a father of the nation at a
moment of crisis. Just then, America needed a leader who would feel their pain.

"Though no official would ever say it out loud, mourning worked well for Clinton: he
gave good funeral."

In the same (great) article, there's this quote. Is it verifiable?

"When Rabin was assassinated two years later, it was Clinton who knew how to massage
Israel's wounded spirit. He spoke to them, via TV, addressing the dead Rabin with
the words "Shalom chaver" - goodbye friend. The phrase had not existed in Hebrew
before; now it's common Israeli parlance."


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Nov  9 13:41:13 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 08:41:13 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <909137901gbarrett@monickels.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.084113.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Grant Barrett wrote:

> Has there been any work done one the construction "gives good X"? My
> guess is that
> it comes from "gives good head" but as can be seen in the quote below,
> we're a long
> way from that now.

The record should reflect Madonna's "Rita Hayworth gave good face" in
'Vogue. some 10 or 11 years ago.

--- Steve K.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Nov  9 13:46:02 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 08:46:02 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <909137901gbarrett@monickels.com>; from gbarrett@MONICKELS.COM on
 Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:34:22PM +0100
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.084602.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Has there been any work done one the construction "gives good X"? My guess is that
> it comes from "gives good head" but as can be seen in the quote below, we're a long
> way from that now.

The Random House HDAS has "give good [or great] ---- (followed by
sing. count noun treated as mass noun) to be notable for ----;
to be notable for the use of or abilities with ----. [Used to
generate usu. joc. nonce phr., all reminiscent of (and patterned
after) _give head_ s.v. head, n.", with citations from 1971 onwards.

The construction also seems to have been discussed in a 1983 article
in American Speech which I can't find right now.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Thu Nov  9 14:32:47 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:32:47 -0500
Subject: "money" as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.093247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have a friend I've known since '92 who calls good friends "Money" on a
regular basis. I've also heard it used the same way prior to that, on
occasions, but can't provide a specific instance.

Bob

Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
> In HDAS, under _money_ 'friend (in direct address)' (e.g.
> "Yo, money, whassup?"), we have two examples where this
> _money_ is functioning as a quasi-pronoun: "Money
> [i.e. 'he'] can rap" and "Leave money [i.e. 'him']
> alone".
>
> I have a vague sense that I've encountered this elsewhere, or
> that it is at least slightly common, but I can't find any
> additional examples. Parallel examples with other AAVE
> direct-address terms sound plausible to my ear (e.g.
> "Homes was doin' great!" (invented ex.)), but I can't find
> evidence for them either.
>
> Is anyone familiar with this usage--preferably with
> examples, but at least able to confirm or refute my
> suspicion that the construction has at least some
> currency? Is this construction or parallels used
> in any other way?
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Nov  9 14:48:17 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:48:17 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <909137901gbarrett@monickels.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.094817.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Has there been any work done one the construction "gives good X"? My guess
>is that
>it comes from "gives good head" but as can be seen in the quote below,
>we're a long
>way from that now.
>
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,393879,00.html
>
>...

>"Though no official would ever say it out loud, mourning worked well for
>Clinton: he
>gave good funeral."

"Give X" < "Give head" < "Get [some] head" < "Get [some] tail", I think.

Alternatives include "Get/give skull/face". I suppose Madonna's song
employs a deliberate double-entendre.

While "give good wedding" might be considered simply schoolboy-jocular, I
think "give good funeral", as in the above article, is deliberately mildly
derogatory, with an implicit imputation of
hypocrisy/meretriciousness/whorishness: I think the clause after the colon
in the above quotation is entirely superfluous/gratuitous otherwise. Maybe
we're not so very far from the underlying expression with "head". Do others
share my perception?

-- Doug Wilson


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Thu Nov  9 15:29:48 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:29:48 EST
Subject: (Fwd) RE: HDAS
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.102948.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Robert Felton wrote to me, regarding the HDAS: "Does anybody (anyone?
... whichever) know the publishing schedule?"

I replied to him thus:

        "It seems to be in a state of permanent suspension, since evidently
that disreputable publishing house and its ultimate owners, whoever
and whereever they are, refuse to invest in completing the project,
and they are barred from raising money from foundations to complete
it, by the fact that they are a relentlessly for-profit business.
You saw the message from the publisher yesterday, to which I
responded, directly to him, that I still stood by the phrase
"disreputable publishing house".  And will continue to stand by it,
and indeed to insist upon it.

        "Only if we make clear that we who are the purchasers and users of
that dictionary will continue to regard its publisher as a disreputable
publishing house until the project in completed will it in fact be
completed."

        Indeed, I think I am going to make the non-appearance of vol. 3 of
HDAS my own obsessive crusade, and will stay on that disreputable
publishing house like ugly on an ape until it appears.  William
Safire only thinks he's getting his balls busted here.  He doesn't
know.

GAT


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Thu Nov  9 16:14:09 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:14:09 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.111409.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Woody Allen's "Annie Hall" (1977), a character says this:

"Not only is he a great agent, but he really gives good meetings."

Paul


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov  9 03:41:31 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:41:31 +0800
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <009c01c04a68$17c1b980$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.114131.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A classic graffito (or pseudo-graffito):

"Edith Head gives good costumes."

(For the uninitiated, E.H. is/was probably Hollywood's most
celebrated costume designer.)

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  9 16:47:49 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:47:49 EST
Subject: Sudden Wealth Syndrome
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.114749.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the NEW YORK POST, 9 November 2000, pg. 34, col. 3:

_"SUDDEN WEALTH SYNDROME"_
_Are they too rich too soon?_
_Many young 'Net entrepreneurs fall to drugs & booze_
   (Story of the late Phillip Katz, the "zipping" genius, and others--ed.)
   (Pg. 35, col. 6--ed.)
    Eventually, the feeling of immense power can lead to what Goldbart calls
"financial narcissism."

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

   I've seen "dot-comette" but I haven't seen "dot-comet."  I haven't checked
the databases yet...I'll try to sneak into the CIA this weekend (Culinary
Institute of America, that is)...I have a new senator with no last name.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Nov  9 16:52:26 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:52:26 -0500
Subject: money as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
In-Reply-To: <909121769gbarrett@monickels.com>; from gbarrett@MONICKELS.COM on
 Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 09:08:36AM +0100
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.115226.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I think you should check out the movie "Swingers." It's a Nineties white kid cult
> classic, and although "money" is used as in "You are so money" in a notable scene, I
> suspect you'll find your quasi-pronoun usage there as well.

You won't.

Also, re the notable usage in the film, while Doug Liman (author/
director) has claimed that he did not invent the usage, but heard
it an incorporated it into the film, I have never seen an
example of it that did not refer to the film (with the possible
exception of glossaries that are not explicitely tied to the
film but clearly derive the usage from it). I'd welcome any
genuine cites.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Nov  9 17:39:12 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:39:12 +0000
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <009c01c04a68$17c1b980$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.173912.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In Woody Allen's "Annie Hall" (1977), a character says this:
>
>"Not only is he a great agent, but he really gives good meetings."
>
>Paul

But that's more likely a play on "give a good party" than "give head".

Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM  Thu Nov  9 17:49:46 2000
From: jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM (Jeffrey William McKeough)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 12:49:46 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <909137901gbarrett@monickels.com> from "Grant Barrett" at Nov 09,
 2000 01:34:22 PM
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.124946.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Grant Barrett wrote:
>
>In the same (great) article, there's this quote. Is it verifiable?
>
>"When Rabin was assassinated two years later, it was Clinton who knew
>how to massage Israel's wounded spirit. He spoke to them, via TV,
>addressing the dead Rabin with the words "Shalom chaver" - goodbye
>friend. The phrase had not existed in Hebrew before; now it's common
>Israeli parlance."

I don't know if Israelis used the phrase, but when I was a kid in
Hebrew school in the '70s we sang a song called "shalom chaverim".

Oh, and about the Official English law in Utah: My boyfriend is a grad
student at the University of Utah, and said that one of the main
arguments he heard in favor of the measure (which he opposed) was that
English was the official language of the United States, and that this
initiative would merely bring Utah law in line with Federal law.
(Many people believed this so strongly that he gave up trying to
correct them.)

--
Jeffrey William McKeough   For Drainage, Punch Out The X: X
jwm at spdcc.com  (or spdcc.net if that bounces)
"Well it was more than 5 years ago for me, but if you
spent a lot of time moving really fast you may be OK." -Oly


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Nov  9 16:54:11 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:54:11 -0500
Subject: Sudden Wealth Syndrome
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.115411.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Barry, and anyone else who is interested:


CIA is not a closed campus.  As a resident of Hyde Park, I ought to
know, they welcome "outsiders."

Regards,
David Barnhart


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Nov  9 18:20:31 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:20:31 -0500
Subject: More Dan Ratherisms
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.132031.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Letterman last night, he quoted several other Ratherisms. The wording may not
be exact:

"Bush is moving though Dixie faster than a Big Wheel through a cotton field."

"Gore must be as cross as a snapping turtle."

"Polls(?) have been veering and wobbling so much that even NASA and the
Cosmodrome can't track 'em in some cases."


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Thu Nov  9 18:50:18 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:50:18 -0500
Subject: money as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
In-Reply-To: <20001109115226.A23269@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.135018.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse,

The Internet Movie Database lists Liman as the director but credits Jon
Favreau with the screenplay, but in addition to this factoid, I remember
seeing Favreau on Letterman following the film's release.  When asked about
his characters' usage of money, Favreau said that he made it up.  He wanted
his group to have their own collection of slang terms, and the adjectival
use of money was one of the results.  He didn't, BTW, use the term
"adjectival."

> From: Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:52:26 -0500
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: money as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
>
>> I think you should check out the movie "Swingers." It's a Nineties white kid
>> cult
>> classic, and although "money" is used as in "You are so money" in a notable
>> scene, I
>> suspect you'll find your quasi-pronoun usage there as well.
>
> You won't.
>
> Also, re the notable usage in the film, while Doug Liman (author/
> director) has claimed that he did not invent the usage, but heard
> it an incorporated it into the film, I have never seen an
> example of it that did not refer to the film (with the possible
> exception of glossaries that are not explicitely tied to the
> film but clearly derive the usage from it). I'd welcome any
> genuine cites.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED


From monickels at EXCITE.COM  Thu Nov  9 17:20:09 2000
From: monickels at EXCITE.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:20:09 -0800
Subject: Shalom Chaver
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.092009.0800.>

Regarding shalom chaver: I just spoke with a fellow student who is fluent in
Hebrew and a regular visitor to Israel. She confirms that the phrase has
caught on: bumperstickers, t-shirts, that sort of thing. Very much a
catch-phrase and a reminder of the horrible assassination of Rabin.

Perhaps the new "Ich bin ein berliner?"





_______________________________________________________
Say Bye to Slow Internet!
http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov  9 19:54:15 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 14:54:15 -0500
Subject: Externships
In-Reply-To: <cb.b008737.2739eff2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.145415.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 7 Nov 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>     "Externships" is in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL, 7 November 2000, pg.
> B18, col. 1.  I haven't yet checked Barnhart.  A quick Google check shows the
> term used more frequently in universities than in business.

I think "externship" is a very common, well-established term.  W10
includes it, with a 1945 dating.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Nov  9 23:35:33 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:35:33 -0600
Subject: heads up!
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.173533.0600.>

"...thanks for the heads up!"
Twice in recent weeks I've received e-mails with the expression "heads up" meaning
"warning."  Maybe this has already been discussed on ADS-L.  I'm not suggesting that it's
brand new, just that it is worth noting.
DMLance


From cbernstn at POSTOFFICE.MEMPHIS.EDU  Fri Nov 10 00:31:31 2000
From: cbernstn at POSTOFFICE.MEMPHIS.EDU (Cynthia Bernstein)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 18:31:31 -0600
Subject: international PhD's
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.183131.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Would anyone have or know how I might obtain statistics showing the number of
> international students enrolled in U.S. Ph.D. programs in linguistics?

Cynthia Bernstein
cbernstn at memphis.edu

>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Nov  9 23:24:37 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:24:37 -0600
Subject: HDAS
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.172437.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Just wondering;  How much money is needed to print the rest of _
(Random House) Historical Dictionary of American Slang_?   Random House
evidently wants to make a profit (not unreasonable), and Jonathan Lighter
would like royalties (also not unreasonable).  How much would each  copy of
the third volume have to sell for to satisfy both parties?

    If publication of the entire third volume isn't now possible, how about
printing half of it? Or a quarter of it?  What other sources of funding
might be available?  If the scholarly community and a representative from
Random House would engage in some brainstorming, might a solution or at
least a partial solution emerge?

-----Gerald Cohen





gcohen at umr.edu


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Nov 10 01:59:59 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:59:59 -0500
Subject: money as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
In-Reply-To: <B6305C19.4B59%highbob@mindspring.com>; from
 highbob@MINDSPRING.COM on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:50:18PM -0500
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.205959.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> The Internet Movie Database lists Liman as the director but credits Jon
> Favreau with the screenplay, but in addition to this factoid, I remember
> seeing Favreau on Letterman following the film's release.  When asked about
> his characters' usage of money, Favreau said that he made it up.  He wanted
> his group to have their own collection of slang terms, and the adjectival
> use of money was one of the results.  He didn't, BTW, use the term
> "adjectival."

Hmm. That surprises me, since I asked Doug Liman directly about
this (a friend of mine went to college with him) and he said then
that he had heard it in Los Angeles and hadn't made it up.

But whether deliberately coined or not, the fact remains that
the usage seems not to have any currency outside of specific
references to the movie.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov  9 13:33:27 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:33:27 +0800
Subject: WOTY candidate
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.213327.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from countless news reports (maybe not a brand-new word, but...):

butterfly ballot

Larry


From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Fri Nov 10 03:22:05 2000
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:22:05 -0500
Subject: WOTY candidate
In-Reply-To: <p04320401b63058034476@[130.132.231.226]>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.222205.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:33 AM 11/9/00, Laurence Horn wrote:
>from countless news reports (maybe not a brand-new word, but...):
>
>butterfly ballot
>
>Larry


They've apparently been around since the Flood, and are widely used in
rural Ohio.  I encountered one for the first time on Tuesday, and found it
confusing even though ours didn't have that weirdo staggered column on the
right side.  The whole procedure was so awkward that I only voted three times.



--
Evan Morris
words1 at word-detective.com
http://www.word-detective.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 10 04:53:47 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 23:53:47 EST
Subject: The Restaurateur and The American Hotelier
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.235347.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     I'll probably go to the Culinary Institute of America on Monday.  The
library part of their web site (www.ciachef.edu/library.html) was available
yesterday, but died today.
    I've been finishing up THE RESTAURATEUR AND THE AMERICAN HOTELIER.

15 April 1927, R&AH, pg. 49, col. 2--You can't go wrong with the motto "The
Patron is Always Right."

11 June 1927, R&AH, pg. 18, col. 2:
   _Service With A Smile_
   Eureka, Cal.--The Marylee Cafe has been opened at 224 F street, and is now
catering to the public.
   "Service with a smile" is the proprietor's motto.

30 July 1927, R&AH, pg. 10, col. 2--...there are "stiffs" (those who do not
tip at all) in both sexes.

12 November 1927, R&AH, pg. 74, col. 2--"Famous For Fine Food."  (Motto of
Olmsted Grill, Washington, D. C.--ed.)

12 November 1927, R&AH, pg. 84, col. 1--_Popular Prices for the Family
Restaurant._
(OED "popular prices," "family restaurant"?--ed.)

12 November 1927, R&AH, pg. 97, col. 1--_An Italian Atmosphere that is REAL_
Not pseudo, greets the visitor of Mori's, at Bleecker Street and Broadway,
New York City, and the food, rare Italian viands, seems all the better for
its appropriate setting. (...) Here the epicure may obtain the savory Chicken
a la Cacciatora, done to a turn in the way that only Mori has of doing it.
(Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA has 1930s for chicken cacciatori--ed.)

26 November 1927, R&AH, pg. 4, col. 2:
_Ordering by the Marble_
_System in Restaurants_
   The successful waitress in the various sandwich shops in the Times Square
section in New York City must know her marbles.

4 February 1928, R&AH, pg. 3, col. 2--Melted cheese and bacon between two
slices of white bread is called a "Dutch Treat." (...)  In the last year the
"toastwich", or toasted sandwich, has risen to high favor.

7 April 1928, R&AH, pg. 42, col. 1--..."The kind that Mother Used to Make."
(...) ...New England clam chowder...

28 April 1928, R&AH, pg. 50, col. 2--"Only the Best" Is the Demand of the
Average American in Hotels....

28 April 1928, R&AH, pg. 61, col. 2--"Give the People what they want when
they want it" is the keynote of the service of the Reading Terminal
Restaurant, in Philadelphia....

26 May 1928, R&AH, pg. 14, col. 2--The secret, however, is to administer a
good drenching of that "dragon's blood," without which most Oriental dishes
seem incomplete, and then it becomes reasonably palatable.
(Dragon's blood=soy sauce--ed.)

9 June 1928, R&AH, pg. 5, col. 1--"VENEZ et Vous Reviendrez" is the slogan of
Maison Fichl, well-known French restaurant at 1225 Broadway, New York.  The
literal translation of Jose Fichl's slogan is:  "Come and you will come
again."

23 June 1928, R&AH, pg. 7, col. 1:
_The Advantages of A Children's Menu As A Regular Feature_
   (...)(Col. 2--ed.)
   The Shepard Colonial Restaurant in Boston was one of the first to realize
the need for specially prepared food for children.

30 June 1928, R&AH, pg. 8, col. 3--Clam Chowder Manhattan.  (Schiller Cafe,
Philadelphia--ed.)

1 September 1928, R&AH, pg. 4, col. 2--"Cocktail parties abound, and we revel
in an excess we never dreamed of in pre-prohibition days."
(OED has "cocktail parties" also in 1928--ed.)

29 September 1928, R&AH, pg. 4, col. 2--According to the Swiss, if the holes
in cheese, which they term "eyes," are small, the process of fermentation has
been slow or incomplete, while very large eyes indicate too rapid
fermentation.

6 October 1928, R&AH, pg. 10, col. 1--Cheese Balls.

10 November 1928, R&AH, pg. 77, col. 1--"MAKE my home your home" is a slogan
that is always kept alive at the Hotel Lafayette, Buffalo, N. Y.

22 December 1928, R&AH, pg. 4, col. 1:
   One of the best known Italian dining places, citing an example, is Zucca's
at 118 West 49th Street.  The proper name of this restaurant is Zucca's
Italian Winter Gardden but New Yorkers know it best by the name of its
proprietor.
   (Col. 3--ed.)
   ...accompanied by Mr. Zucca's famous green spaghetti, which is the
specialty of the house.
   _Famous Green Spaghetti_
   The green spaghetti and noodles are made of pure wheat flour, eggs and
spinach.

2 March 1929, R&AH, pg. 15:
_THIS SURE_
_IS NEWS_
_TO ME_
(Feature section had this regular header--ed.)

8 June 1929, R&AH, pg. 13:
_How A Shore Dinner_
_Establishment_
_Became Internationally Famous_
(More about the Villepigue Inn at Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn--ed.)

15 June 1929, R&AH, pg. 9:
_Ritz-Carlton Hotel Chef_
_Explains Popularity of_
_French Cooking_
(Chef Louis Diat explains everything BUT what I was looking
for--vichysoisse!!--ed.)

24 August 1929, R&AH, pg. 23, col. 3:
_BARTENDERS NOW NAMED_
_BEVERAGE DISPENSERS_


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 10 05:18:36 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 00:18:36 EST
Subject: Oyster Bar; Oyster Cocktail
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.001836.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     From THE RESTAURATEUR AND THE AMERICAN HOTELIER, 9 June 1928, pg. 17,
col. 1:

   Derouet (Leony C. Derouet, Hotel Commodore chef--ed.) is said to have been
the originator of (Col. 2--ed.) the "oystar (sic) bar" idea, establishing
what is thought to have been the first of its kind at the old Grand Union
Hotel.
(OED had 1878 for "oyster bar"--ed.)

     From THE RESTAURATEUR AND THE AMERICAN HOTELIER, 26  May 1928, pg. 4,
col. 3:

_The Origin of the_
_Oyster Cocktail_
   The oyster cocktail originated in San Francisco about 1866.  One day in
one of those rustic restaurants, gold diggers' rendezvous on the Barbary
Coast, a husky miner was welcomed as a rude guest to the rude joint.  He
order an old-fashioned whisky cocktail and a plate of California raw.
   After drinking the whisky cocktail this hungry guest without more ado
placed the little California raw oysters in the same glass with some tomato
catsup, Worcester and pepper sauce and promptly disposed of the appetizing
repast.
   The restaurant keeper looked on with great astonishment, then asked "What
do you call it?"  And the miner, with grand gusto, replied: "Oyster cocktail."
   Next day without delay the keeper wrote on the bar mirror: "Oyster
cocktail.  Four bits per glass!"
   In a few days every joint on the Barbary Coast began to serve oyster
cocktails.  Then gradually the best hotels and cafes in San Francisco got the
idea and there appeared on their menus not only oyster cocktails, but
different kinds of seafood cocktails as well.
(OED has 1895 of "oyster cocktail"--ed.)


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Fri Nov 10 05:42:30 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 00:42:30 -0500
Subject: money as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
In-Reply-To: <20001109205959.B15880@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.004230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree, Jesse, and I'm not calling your conversation/interview into
question.  I'm just citing the IMDb and also the video sleeve, as well as
the conversation I saw with Favreau on television.  In all the times I've
heard individuals use "money" in this manner, they'd in each case seen the
movie and were referencing it.  The usage was semi-hot a couple years ago;
now, nothing.

> From: Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:59:59 -0500
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: money as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
>
> But whether deliberately coined or not, the fact remains that
> the usage seems not to have any currency outside of specific
> references to the movie.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Nov 10 05:56:13 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:56:13 -0700
Subject: Dan Rather's homey comparisons
In-Reply-To: <39FA004400108F7D@phobos.email.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.225613.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dan Rather is from Texas, and periodically likes to affect a "down home"
style to counteract his Gore-like stiffness. I think it was painfully
obvious that he had asked a member of his staff to come up with such a
list of comparisons, and was reading them from a monitor as the occasion
allowed. The full Damon Runyon quote showed that this was not something he
had learned from his daddy or granny.

I usually prefer CBS for coverage (I like all the Texans on their news
staff), but I found that NBC was miles ahead of everyone else on the
Florida debacle, so stuck with them. They were talking directly with the
secretary of state and attorney general and getting first-hand data when
Dan Rather was wondering an hour later where the confusing quotes were
coming from, and Peter Jennings did not seem any better informed.

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 10 05:55:56 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 00:55:56 EST
Subject: Glitzocracy
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.005556.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the NEW YORK OBSERVER, 13 November 2000, pg. 1, col. 1:

_GLITZOCRACY AWAITS_
_HILLARY AT ELAINE'S_
_ON TRIUMPHAL NIGHT_

   There is also one "New Labour glitzocracy" from the 11-9-1999 GUARDIAN on
the Dow Jones database.
   Maybe I should move to another state.  Maybe Missouri.  Hillary would have
lost to some dead person.


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Fri Nov 10 06:54:38 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:54:38 -0800
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <009c01c04a68$17c1b980$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.225438.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In Woody Allen's "Annie Hall" (1977), a character says this:
>
>"Not only is he a great agent, but he really gives good meetings."

When was the Gene Wilder/Richard Pryor movie "Silver Streak"?  In it,
the Jill Clayburgh character explains that she got her job because
she "gave good phone."

Rima


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 10 07:10:53 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 01:10:53 CST
Subject: WOTY candidate
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.011053.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>They've apparently been around since the Flood, and are widely used in
>rural Ohio. I encountered one for the first time on Tuesday, and found it
>confusing even though ours didn't have that weirdo staggered column on the
>right side.
>The whole procedure was so awkward that I only voted three times.

I remember using it the very first time I voted, 1970. They were quite new
then, and all the thing. It's essentially a punch card. Yeah. Punch cards.
Archaic, but not quite since the flood.

One of the talking heads likened the flotilla of Washington lawyers coming
in by chartered jets unto the greatest of all ambulance chases, the Bohpal
disaster in India.

Slightly OT, but as a pundit, I think Chris Matthews' career has taken a
plunge. Several women have mentioned how abrasive he is, and how they don't
like him.




_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


From fodde at UNICA.IT  Fri Nov 10 12:14:17 2000
From: fodde at UNICA.IT (Luisanna Fodde)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:14:17 +0100
Subject: Standardization of English in the US
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.131417.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am minterested in the development of a standard language in the US. A part
from the examples of Franklin and Noah Webster, is  there any critical work
on the subject?
Thanks
Luisanna Fodde
Italy


From philbrown at JUNO.COM  Fri Nov 10 14:20:55 2000
From: philbrown at JUNO.COM (Phil Brown)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:20:55 -0500
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 8 Nov 2000 to 9 Nov 2000 (#2000-315)
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.092055.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Slate or Salon had a list of Election Night (or Morning) Ratherisms.

On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 00:03:48 -0500 Automatic digest processor
<LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> writes:


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Fri Nov 10 18:48:10 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:48:10 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <a04330102b630f5a5acce@[216.185.15.183]>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.134810.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Rima, SILVER STREAK was released in 1976.

bob

> From: Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm at SLIP.NET>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:54:38 -0800
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
>
> When was the Gene Wilder/Richard Pryor movie "Silver Streak"?  In it,
> the Jill Clayburgh character explains that she got her job because
> she "gave good phone."


From jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM  Fri Nov 10 19:02:13 2000
From: jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM (Jeffrey William McKeough)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:02:13 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <B631AD19.4B89%highbob@mindspring.com> from "Bob Haas" at Nov 10,
 2000 01:48:10 PM
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.140213.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking of the subject line, Friday's _Jerusalem Post_
(www.jpost.com) has a sidebar photo of President Clinton with a
caption reading "Shalom haver".

--
Jeffrey William McKeough   For Drainage, Punch Out The X: X
jwm at spdcc.com  (or spdcc.net if that bounces)
"Well it was more than 5 years ago for me, but if you
spent a lot of time moving really fast you may be OK." -Oly


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 11 01:54:00 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:54:00 EST
Subject: When It's _Cocktail Time_ In Cuba (1928)
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.205400.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WHEN IT'S _COCKTAIL TIME_ IN CUBA
by Basil Woon
New York: Horace Liveright: 1928

   Cuba during the U.S. Prohibition era!  Drinks!  Cigars!  Women!  "Rum,
Roulette & Racing."  Boy, it sure brings back memories.
   Wait a minute--I was never in Cuba in the 1920s!
   This book is a good read, for the cocktails and more.  The NYPL edition is
falling apart, with many loose pages.

Pg. 33--Prohibition in the United States may have added to the number of
"American" bars, but the corner _bodega_ has always flourished.  A _bodega_
is part grocery, part tobacco-shop, and part saloon.  Generally it is a
restaurant as well.

Pg. 38--The earnest drinkers of Havana have certain preferences in the way of
refreshments.  The most popular and most healthful drink is called _daiquiri_
and is merely bacardi with lime-juice, shaken up until the shaker is covered
with frost.
   The original cane-planters of Cuba and Louisiana had a drink which they
made out of rum and squeezed limes, ice, a dash of grenadine, and
siphon-water.  It was drunk out of tall frosted glasses and was called
"Planter's Punch."
   Planter's Punch was the usual drink of the Cuban Americans, but down in
Santiago where a group used to meet in the Venus bar every morning at eight
o'clock it was modified to exclude the grenadine and siphon-water, and was
made in a shaker.  Instead of Jamaica rum the pure Cuban bacardi, distilled
in (Pg. 39--ed.) Santiago from molasses, was used.  The boys used to have
three or four every morning.
   Most of them worked in the Daiquiri mines, the superintendent of which was
a gentleman named Cox--Jennings Cox.  One morning in the Venus Cox said:
"Boys, we've been drinking this delicious little drink for some time, but
we've never named it.  Let's christen it now!"
   The boys milled around a bit and finally Cox said: "I'll tell you what,
lads--we all work at Daiquiri and we all drank this drink first there.  Let's
call it a _daiquiri_!"
   The _daiquiri_ is now the best-known drink in Cuba.  This recipe for the
real _daiquiri_ was given me by Facundo Bacardi and confirmed by one of the
men who was present at the christening: half one lime, squeezed onto one
teaspoonful of sugar; pour in one whiskey-glassful of bacardi; plenty of ice;
shake until shaker is thoroughly frosted outside.  Meanwhile, chill a tall
wine-glass of the kind known as _flute_, fill it with shaven ice, and pour in
the mixture.  Must be drunk frozen or is not good.  The "bacardi cocktail"
and pronounced "bacARdi," common in New York and Europe, is unknown in Cuba.
The proper pronunciation of the name "Bacardi" stressed the last syllable.
Later on, in Santiago, we shall see how the rum is made.
   (No, we won't.  Pg. 40--ed.)
   The two other cocktails mostly in demand in Havana are the _presidente_
and the _Mary Pickford_. The _presidente_ is made with half bacardi and half
French vermouth, with a dash of either curacoa or grenadine.  It is the
aristocrat of cocktails and is the one preferred by the better class of
Cuban.  The _Mary Pickford_ (OED?--ed.), invented during a visit to Havana of
the screen favorite by Fred Kaufman, is two-thirds pineapple-juice and
one-third bacardi, with a dash of grenadine.  Both cocktails are sweetish and
should be well shaken.  The pineapple juice must be fresh-squeezed.

Pg. 43--The lucky part came when the Havana city government some years ago
appointed a "sanitary commission" to inquire into the cleanliness of the
_bodegas_.  The less said about the actual workings of this commission the
better.  But it happened that "Pop" Roberds, proprietor of the Havana
_Evening News_, and Joe were having a little squabble about this time over a
matter of advertising.  "Pop" (Pg. 44-ed.) thought Joe should advertise with
him, and Joe thought differently about it.  "Pop," being an old-style
newspaper man, very properly thought himself affronted, and forthwith wrote
an editorial in which he suggested to the Sanitary Commission that they might
with profit extend their investigations to include "a place on Zuletta Street
which should be called 'Sloppy' Joe's."  The name caught on almost at once,
and Joe, although privately peeved at "Pop," realized that he had a good
thing.  He enlarged his place, and at a moment when drinks in Havana were
costing seventy-five cents apiece (it was just afte
r the Volstead Act became operative in the United States), suddenly cut the
price in half.  The resultant business forced him to enlarge his place again.
 "Sloppy Joe's" became a byword and Joe used the slogan on his saloon sign
and in his advertising.  Distinguished writers from New York and further
afield wrote about the place and money came in so fast that Joe again
enlarged.  He now employs eleven bartenders.  He advertises in _The Evening
News_ and "Pop" Roberds is a regular client.  The place is big, noisy, has an
almost exclusively tourist trade, and is frequented for refreshments after
the theater.  It has little really Cuban about it and might before the war
have been on Third Avenue, New York.
("Sloppy Joe" is also the name of a sandwich--ed.)

Pg. 49--Slim young senoritas, whose fathers are literally "sugar daddies,"
are very alluring in their Paris frocks.

Pg. 57--Cocoanuts, mangos, bananas and mameys (OED?--ed.)(a sort of
tough-skinned apricot grow wild, in such profusion that they are more a
nuisance than a blessing.

Pg. 126--THE CASINO: "WHERE THEY GET YOU COMIN' AN' GOIN' AN' MAKE YOU LIKE
IT."

Pg. 144--..."got religion."

Pg. 162--...filled with _chulos_--Cuban equivalent to the European _gigolo_.

Pg. 175--..."what's the big i-dear."

Pg. 182--..."life of the party."

Pg. 183--Takes his "Cuba Libre"* only occasionally. (...)
*_Cuba Libre_: a highball contrived of coca-cola and bacardi rum.
(OED has an 1898 "Cuba Libre" citation of "water and brown sugar," then skips
to 1937--ed.)

Pg. 222--..."all the comforts of home."

Pg. 246--It was at the Venus, you will remember, that Jennings S. Cox and
others baptized the _daiquiri_ cocktail.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 11 03:01:54 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:01:54 EST
Subject: Restaurant Man (1954-1960)
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.220154.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I checked THE RESTAURANT MAN at the end of its run (about 1920-1960).  It
contained some food items, some drink items, and some epigrams/humor.
   I'll read more of THE MIXER & SERVER (in the Science, Industry & Business
Library) next week.  The LOS ANGELES FREE PRESS is physically located in the
genealogy division (the newspaper division will no longer retrieve it for me)
and I'll continue that next week as well.

December 1954, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 12, col. 2--Where there has been a large
influx of Puerto Ricans the taverns have been hit very hard as the so-called
"Spics" are a low income group and with large families can't afford to
patronize bars.

February-March 1955, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 12, cols. 1-3--(The story of Irish
coffee.  John Boning, the director of the Bartenders School, 201 West 49th
Street, NY, wrote a regular column for the RESTAURANT MAN, but I didn't find
much worth recording--ed.)

August-September 1955, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 28 ad for New York's Famous
Knickerbocker Beer--LESS "FILLING."
(Tastes great?--ed.)

June-July 1956, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 11, col. 2--He has coined the slogan "The
Home of Sizzling Steaks" served on platters to a discriminating clientele.
(Fred Wolff of the Gourmet Restaurant of Philadelphia.  See "Don't sell the
steak, sell the sizzle" in the non-working ADS-L archives--ed.)

August 1956, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 3, col. 1--It is the type of salesmanship
expressed by the late Willie Howard, the famous Broadway comedian, when he
said, to sell a man a coat who wants to buy a coat isn't salesmanship, but to
sell a coat to a man who doesn't want to buy one--that's salesmanship.

August 1956, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 18, col. 3--Never question your wife's
judgment--look at who she married!

Sept.-October 1956, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 24, col. 3--A bigamist is a man who
makes the same mistake twice.

Sept-October 1956, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 26, col. 3--SAY IT WITH A SMILE!
(Poem--ed.)

Sept.-October 1956, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 27, col. 1--(Drawing of a chef.  He
winks his eye and gives the "OK" sign--ed.)

March 1957, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 20, col. 1--In the old days before
Prohibition the bars of the Grand Union, Belmont and Manhattan hotels, now
but memories, were veritable beehives before train time.  They were nicknamed
"coaling stations" where comuters got steam up for the travel homeward.

Januuary-February 1958, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 23, col. 2:
_CREPES SUZETTE MADE_
_MUCH DIFFERENT TODAY_
   Crepes Suzette were originated by Prosper Montague, then Chef at the Cafe
de Paris, in Monte Carlo.  They were concocted for King Edward VII of England
and named after Suzette, the beautiful and attractive flower girl His Majesty
admired.
   Actually the crepes as they are made today are far different from the
crepes suzette recipe which is immortalized by Prosper Montague in his cook
book "Le grand livre de la Cuisine."  According to his recipe, into the
appareil goes Ciracao and Mandarine Sucre.  Then the crepes anre spread with
the following mixture, 100 grammes powder sugar, 1/20 of a litre of Curacao
and the juice of a mandarine, well combined.  The crepes are folded in 4 and
sprinkled with powder sugar.
(See my previous "crepes suzette" posting in the non-working ADS-L
archives--ed.)

March 1958, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 19, col. 3--Nothing is really work unless you
would rather be doing something else.

March (re-check--this copy is mangled) 1958, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 26, col.
2--A winner never quits and a quitter never wins.

Sept.-Oct. 1958, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 22, col. 3:
Said a monk, as he swung by his tail
To the little monks, female and male:
"From your offspring, my dears,
In a few million years,
May evolve a professor in Yale!"

March-April 1960, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 3, col. 1--THE SIZZLING SIXTIES.
THERE'S an old saying that a bad beginning frequently means a good ending.
Certainly the so-called "Sizzling Sixties," as the present decade has been
named, got off on the wrong foot.

May-June 1960, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 12, col. 3--DEMONSTRATE MICRO-WAVE COOKING
AT CONVENTION.  (The cooking is in "electronic" ovens--ed.)

Sept-Oct. 1960, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 20, col. 1--He who has Health has Hope,
and he who has Hope has everything.

COFFEE BREAK:

November 1954, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 17, col. 2--If you had mentioned "coffee
break" a couple of years or so ago, few people would have understood what you
were talking about, but that strange sounding term has now become very
familiar to our ears but somewhat ominous to cafeteria operators because they
have lost much of their former business to counter service restaurants and
luncheonettes on account of this so-called coffee break.  (BREAK up that
sentence!--ed.)  During the Korean War a shortage of office workers,
particularly stenographers, developed and there was considerable pirating and
switching of jobs for money considerations.  Some far-sighted office
personnel managers thought up the idea of giving the girls a break during the
morning for coffe (sic) and a snack, hence the name.  It worked very well as
a harmonizer and promoter of good employer-employee (Col. 3--ed.) relations
and was extended to the afternoon when another break was permitted.  Before
these breaks were instituted the average office w
orker had a good appetitie when lunch time arrived which he or she proceeded
to satisfy with some substantial food at a service restaurant or cafeteria to
carry them through till dinner time.  But that is all changed now and instead
of a regular meal they have a light snack for lunch now and another in the
afternoon.  So we seee thousands of office owrkers acting very much like
pigeons, always eating but always hungry.  That is why the cafeterias don't
get much of this business and why the Chock Full O' Nuts stores and similar
counter service places and soda luncheonettes in the office building
neighborhoods are crowded at nearly every hour of the day while the other
restaurants are practically empty in the mornings and early afternoons.  As
an illustration of the effects of these coffee breaks nearly all the new
restaurant construction is of the counter service and luncheonette type.

May 1955, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 19, col. 2:
_POLICE ORGANIZATION_
_ENDORSES COFFEE BREAK_
   The Fraternal Order of Police, 35,000 strong, have thrown their backing
behind a campaign to reduce automobile accidents during the summer months, by
urging motorists to make periodic stops for relaxation and coffee.
   (Col. 3--ed.)
   "For Safety's Sake--Stop--For a Coffee Break."

May 1955, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 22, col. 3:
_EMPLOYERS BREAKING_
_THE COFFEE-BREAK_
   It is human nature to abuse a privilege, so it is not strange that many
office workers who had been permitted by their employers to take a
coffee-break in the morning and another in the afternoon took advantage of
these breaks by staying away from their duties much longer than their
employers had inteded.  Consequently a number of office managers have
cancelled the privilege and have made arrangements with restaurants in their
immediate neighborhood to supple the coffee and other items to their offices.
(...)

January-February 1959, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 16, col. 1:
_DOUBLE COFFEE BREAKS_
_NOW ALMOST UNIVERSAL_
   The majority of office workers in the United States and Canada now have
two coffee-breaks a day rather than one, the National Office Management
Association reported in a special bulletin to its 18,000 members. (...)

(OED has "coffee break" from 1951.  The hyphenated "coffee-break" is not
distinguished.  See previously "coffee break" postings in the non-working
ADS-L archives--ed.)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 10 15:35:23 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 23:35:23 +0800
Subject: Another WOTY candidate:  hanging chads
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.233523.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

According to CNN's Spin Room, the word of the day is "hanging
chads"--chads being those little cardboard thingies that hang
attached to the paper ballots if they're not punched all the way, and
are then hanging chads that may or may not affect the final balloting
in Florida when they're all hand-counted.

larry


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 11 04:38:16 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 23:38:16 EST
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.233816.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have been making notes every time I hear the word ALCOHOLIC pronounced, and
it seems to me that about 2% of the people I listen to say [aek at h)l at k]
invariantently, even when others in conversation with them consistently say
[aelk at h)l at k]. I'm not talking about vocalization of the [l], as in
[aeuk at h)l at k]; it just ain't there at all. Those who do not have the first [l]
do not seem to notice that they lack it, and those who listen to them speak
do not seem to notice the absence of the [l] (at least, nobody comments on
it). There does not seem to be any regional correlation (as there is with,
say, [hEp] for [hElp], and very little social correlation.

Anyone else notice this? Any explanation?


From lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU  Sat Nov 11 10:23:43 2000
From: lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU (Sonja L. Lanehart)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 05:23:43 -0500
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
In-Reply-To: <5b.dcb3d60.273e2738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.052343.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This feature occurs in my data from African American women who are
from the South. I recall hearing this pronunciation for as long as I
can remember.   --Sonja


>I have been making notes every time I hear the word ALCOHOLIC pronounced, and
>it seems to me that about 2% of the people I listen to say [aek at h)l at k]
>invariantently, even when others in conversation with them consistently say
>[aelk at h)l at k]. I'm not talking about vocalization of the [l], as in
>[aeuk at h)l at k]; it just ain't there at all. Those who do not have the first [l]
>do not seem to notice that they lack it, and those who listen to them speak
>do not seem to notice the absence of the [l] (at least, nobody comments on
>it). There does not seem to be any regional correlation (as there is with,
>say, [hEp] for [hElp], and very little social correlation.
>
>Anyone else notice this? Any explanation?


**************************************************************
Sonja L. Lanehart
Department of English                 706-542-2260 (office)
University of Georgia                 706-542-1261 (messages)
300 Park Hall                         706-542-2181 (fax)
Athens, GA 30602-6205                 lanehart at arches.uga.edu
**************************************************************


From janivars at BAHNHOF.SE  Sat Nov 11 11:29:07 2000
From: janivars at BAHNHOF.SE (Jan Ivarsson)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:29:07 +0100
Subject: The Restaurateur...: Vichysoisse (sic!)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.122907.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: den 10 november 2000 05:53
Subject: The Restaurateur and The American Hotelier
>
> 15 June 1929, R&AH, pg. 9:
> _Ritz-Carlton Hotel Chef_
> _Explains Popularity of_
> _French Cooking_
> (Chef Louis Diat explains everything BUT what I was looking
> for--vichysoisse!!--ed.)
>
What you are looking for is probably
Crème Vichyssoise (the placing of the extra -s- changes the pronunciation!)

Here is a recipe:(4 persons):

1 litre (a quart ) of clear soup
4 leeks
4 potatoes
1 onion in slices
1-2 tbsp of butter
1 decilitre of (thick) cream
A bunch of parsley, finely snipped
Salt and pepper

Cut the white of the leeks into thin slices. Fry leeks and onion lightly in the butter. Thin down with the soup.
Peel the potatoes, cut them into thin slices, put them and the parsley in the soup and boil till the potatoes become mash.
Strain the soup. Add the cream and bring to boiling. Add salt and pepper.
Strew finely snipped chives over the soup and serve, very hot or iced according to the season.

Vichyssois(e) means "from Vichy" and can be added to several local kinds of food.

Jan Ivarsson, Sweden


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Nov 11 13:30:44 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 08:30:44 -0500
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
In-Reply-To: <5b.dcb3d60.273e2738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.083044.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I have been making notes every time I hear the word ALCOHOLIC pronounced, and
>it seems to me that about 2% of the people I listen to say [aek at h)l at k]
>invariantly, even when others in conversation with them consistently say
>[aelk at h)l at k]. I'm not talking about vocalization of the [l], as in
>[aeuk at h)l at k]; it just ain't there at all. Those who do not have the first [l]
>do not seem to notice that they lack it, and those who listen to them speak
>do not seem to notice the absence of the [l] (at least, nobody comments on
>it). There does not seem to be any regional correlation (as there is with,
>say, [hEp] for [hElp], and very little social correlation.

My initial impression is that this is just a 'lazy' pronunciation,
comparable  -- for example -- to 'antarctic' /&nartIk/ [& = 'ae' ligature],
which I've heard often. I think you'll find the same casual acceptance of
this, with one speaker saying /&nartIk/, another /&ntarktIk/, nobody much
noticing the distinction.

Is there any correlation between the elision of the /l/ and the 'northern'
high-front pronunciation of /&/?

Do we hear 'calculator' /k&kj at lejt@r/ with elided /l/ sometimes? I think so.

Maybe the silent 'l' often found before /k/ -- as in 'walk', 'folk',
'falcon' (variant), etc., etc. -- shows a general tendency for /lk/ > /k/?

-- Doug Wilson


From sagehen at SLIC.COM  Sat Nov 11 15:16:34 2000
From: sagehen at SLIC.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 10:16:34 -0500
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.101634.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> writes:

>My initial impression is that this is just a 'lazy' pronunciation,
>comparable  -- for example -- to 'antarctic' /&nartIk/ [& = 'ae' ligature],
>which I've heard often. I think you'll find the same casual acceptance of
>this, with one speaker saying /&nartIk/, another /&ntarktIk/, nobody much
>noticing the distinction.

>Is there any correlation between the elision of the /l/ and the 'northern'
>high-front pronunciation of /&/?

>Do we hear 'calculator' /k&kj at lejt@r/ with elided /l/ sometimes? I think so.

>Maybe the silent 'l' often found before /k/ -- as in 'walk', 'folk',
>'falcon' (variant), etc., etc. -- shows a general tendency for /lk/ > /k/?

>-- Doug Wilson
---------------
I also often hear "vunerable"  for vulnerable, and less frequently,
"chirdren" for children.
A. Murie


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Nov 11 17:16:53 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:16:53 -0800
Subject: Another WOTY candidate:  hanging chads
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.091653.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

fascinating.  here in california i've seen "chad" used only
as a mass noun.  so it would have to be "hanging bits/pieces of chad".

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 11 19:53:56 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 13:53:56 CST
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.135356.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>fascinating.  here in california i've seen "chad" used only as a mass noun.
>  so it would have to be "hanging bits/pieces of chad".
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

The word is new to me, but I see the online AH and MW both treat it as
countable.

I wonder if the etymology is an alteration of 'chaff', the stuff that
falls/blows away when threshing wheat (AHD4's sense 1). The semantic space
is right. Curiously, MW does not have this sense; the sense it does have is
unfamiliar to me.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 11 21:30:30 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:30:30 EST
Subject: Safire (& assistant) Watch
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.163030.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Elizabeth Phillips's name is not in the list of ADS members in the latest
NADS.  She is William Safire's assistant.
    Safire's assistants do not _have_ to join the ADS.  However, I've made it
a standing request (for quite a while now) that they _do_ join.  If they
can't afford it, I've offered to pay their ADS membership.  I've sent
certified letters and self-addressed stamped envelopes about this.
   The errors in Safire's 9-17-00 column have not been corrected.  It was a
column that included my name.
   I have written twice to magazine at nytimes.com.  I have written to
letters at nytimes.com.  I have written twice to the e-mail address for New York
Times corrections.  I have written to feedback at nytimes.com.  I have written
to a New York Times spokeperson on Abuzz.com.  And, again, I have written
directly to William Safire's assistant.
   There has been no reply.
   This is an insult not only to me, but to this entire organization.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Nov 11 09:39:18 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:39:18 +0800
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
In-Reply-To: <F69LYu7AHfo98xKLVXf00000cce@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.173918.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>fascinating.  here in california i've seen "chad" used only as a mass noun.
>>  so it would have to be "hanging bits/pieces of chad".
>>
>>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>
>The word is new to me, but I see the online AH and MW both treat it as
>countable.
>
>I wonder if the etymology is an alteration of 'chaff', the stuff that
>falls/blows away when threshing wheat (AHD4's sense 1). The semantic space
>is right. Curiously, MW does not have this sense; the sense it does have is
>unfamiliar to me
>
>_________________________________________________________________________

The AHD4/online AHD just has it as "origin unknown", and I read its
definition ("scraps or bits of paper, such as...the tiny rectangles
punched out from data cards") as favoring a mass over a count
interpretation (or why wouldn't the definition be "a scrap or bit of
paper..."?).  So it seems like the AHD shares Arnold's mass sense.
The OED doesn't know from chad(s), except for a jolly but irrelevant
item.  (See below.)  Actually, I can imagine a cartoon of Mr. Chad
captioned
  "Wot, no president?"

--larry (who only knew of Mr. Chad as Mr. Jeremy's other half)
================
Mr. Chad. The figure of a human head appearing above a wall, etc.,
with the caption `Wot, no --?', as a protest against a shortage or
the like.

        1945 Sunday Express 2 Dec. 2/3 What is the origin of that
peculiarly laughable figure called Chad we see so often scribbled
across our walls?

        1946 Times 1 Apr. 5/4 Mr. Chad probably went through a number
of evolutions at the hands of a vast number of people before reaching
the present state and can claim no
        one man as creator. `Wot! No father,' it might well complain.

        1950 M. Kennedy Feast 220 She drew a picture of Mr. Chad on
the terrace wall saying: `Wot? No black amber?'

        1965 Oxford Mail 28 Sept. 6 The person..staring chad-like in
indolence across the desk-tops.


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Sat Nov 11 23:01:44 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:01:44 -0500
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.180144.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Supposedly this jargon file dates from 27 July 1993

http://www.th-soft.com/zzJargon/

but both 'chad' and 'chad box' are mentioned at:

http://www.th-soft.com/zzJargon/C.htm#chad  (chaff is also mentioned)

On the just noted page, some synonyms are mentioned, as well as a
possible origin, related to the use of Chadless keypunch.

A variation (Army slang) at:
http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/c.html#chad_box (see 'chad', below
the entry for 'chad box')
===================

True, there are a variety of such 'dictionaries' on the net.  This note
does not make a claim as to the accuracy of information presented at the
above links.

George S. Cole    gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sun Nov 12 00:29:04 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:29:04 -0500
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
In-Reply-To: <p04320403b632c10e162b@[130.132.245.149]>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.192904.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 05:39 PM 11/11/00 +0800, you wrote:
>>>fascinating.  here in california i've seen "chad" used only as a mass noun.
>>>  so it would have to be "hanging bits/pieces of chad".
>>>
>>>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>>
>>The word is new to me, but I see the online AH and MW both treat it as
>>countable.
>>
>>I wonder if the etymology is an alteration of 'chaff', the stuff that
>>falls/blows away when threshing wheat (AHD4's sense 1). The semantic space
>>is right. Curiously, MW does not have this sense; the sense it does have is
>>unfamiliar to me
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________________
>
>The AHD4/online AHD just has it as "origin unknown", and I read its
>definition ("scraps or bits of paper, such as...the tiny rectangles
>punched out from data cards") as favoring a mass over a count
>interpretation (or why wouldn't the definition be "a scrap or bit of
>paper..."?).  So it seems like the AHD shares Arnold's mass sense.
>The OED doesn't know from chad(s), except for a jolly but irrelevant
>item.  (See below.)  Actually, I can imagine a cartoon of Mr. Chad
>captioned
>  "Wot, no president?"
>
>--larry (who only knew of Mr. Chad as Mr. Jeremy's other half)
>================
>Mr. Chad. The figure of a human head appearing above a wall, etc.,
>with the caption `Wot, no --?', as a protest against a shortage or
>the like.
>
>        1945 Sunday Express 2 Dec. 2/3 What is the origin of that
>peculiarly laughable figure called Chad we see so often scribbled
>across our walls?
>
>        1946 Times 1 Apr. 5/4 Mr. Chad probably went through a number
>of evolutions at the hands of a vast number of people before reaching
>the present state and can claim no
>        one man as creator. `Wot! No father,' it might well complain.
>
>        1950 M. Kennedy Feast 220 She drew a picture of Mr. Chad on
>the terrace wall saying: `Wot? No black amber?'
>
>        1965 Oxford Mail 28 Sept. 6 The person..staring chad-like in
>indolence across the desk-tops.

Reminds me of a recent issue of _The Nation_ , where the "What, me worry?"
of Mad Magazine was parodied.  Alfred E. Neumann was made to look vaguely
(well, not so vaguely) like G.W., with a sign on him saying "Worry."

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 12 02:19:11 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:19:11 EST
Subject: This Must Be the Place (1937)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.211911.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THIS MUST BE THE PLACE
MEMOIRS OF JIMMIE THE BARMAN
(James Charters)
As told to Morrill Cody
With an introduction by Ernest Hemingway
Lee Furman, Inc., New York, 1937

   Paris in the 1920s.
   That must be the place.  Jimmy Charters worked Le Dingo at
Montparnasse...I yesterday posted information from a book about Cuba in the
1920s.
   This book contains "homos," but not "gay."

Pg. 21---...the writer Sam Putnam calls my "Liverpool grin," a perpetual
expression of my desire to be sympathetic.

Pg. 80--The French workmen called it _lait de tigre_--tiger milk!  It
(Pernod--ed.) is really the same sort of thing as the imitation absinthe
which is made in New Orleans.  It is a clear, pale green liquid as you pour
it in the glass, but when you add water to it, it turns a milky, greenish
color.  The taste is that of licorice.

pg. 89--One of the mystery men of those days was an American named Leaming,
who claimed to have been a monk in Russia and was in Paris simply for a rest
from "monking."

Pg. 96--Hilaire Hiler, who has made a collection of Western songs, was very
much interested in Les's comments on them.  For instance, Les insisted that
the original name of "Frankie and Johnnie" was "Frankie and Albert."
   "Kansas city," he said, "had a district known as the Bottoms, full of
railroad yards, packing houses, tanneries, factories, with a big colored
population and a famous tenderloin or red-light district.  Frankie was a real
girl who lived there.  Albert was her sweetheart, well known in the
underworld, a celebrity as it were, and a sensationalist to the extent of
driving spotted polo ponies, tandem style, to a high trap, with two
thoroughbred bulldogs beside him.  Always conspicuous, he had quite a
following amongst the fair sex, and being constantly overcome by temptation,
was unfaithful to the girl friend.  The result was that he stopped a couple
of slugs.  The tragedy is explained in the song.
   "In singing the song today so many people speak of Frankie's 'gorty-four
gun.'  It should be 'forty-one gun,' because in those days Colt manufactured
(Pg. 97--ed.) something between a thirty-eight and a forty-four.  A forty-one
is just about the kind of gun a gal _would_ carry."
   In reference to the "Engineer's Song," Les said, "This was originally sung
by the colored brakeman and fireman on the old K.C. Railroad, now part of the
Frisco system, running between Birmingham, Alabama, and Memphis, Tennessee.
The song later became known as 'Casey Jones.'"
   Regarding the song "Stackerlee," the late Palmer Jones once told Hiler
that this song originated in Memphis shortly after the murder of the
notorious gambler, Billy Lyons, by his best friend and comrade, William
"Stacker" Lee.  The word "stacker" doubtless refers to his habits when
playing cards.  Les, in commenting on the same song, said, "Stackerlee was no
doubt a real bad man.  This is a song about a levee gambler in St. Louis who
had a heart as hard as granite and was so tough you couldn't manicure him
with an emery wheel.  He carried razors for social purposes and his glance
was like an automatic drill."
   Les also said that "Willie the Weeper" came from the "Hop Song," the first
character song of the underworld that he ever heard.  It was composed by an
entertainer in Cripple Creek, Colorado, by the name of Guy Hallie."  (Sic,
with just end quote--ed.)

Pg. 98--Then I would hear a soft voice say, "Jimmie, when nobody's looking,
slip me a century!"  A century was a hundred francs.  Or sometimes he would
ask for a "sawbuck," five hundred francs.

Pg. 100--They can write their own tickets.

Pg. 103--..."Jimmie, pour out my bread-and-butter, please," and this would
mean a brandy and soda.

Pg. 158--"This must be the place!"

Pg. 210--They were always proud of their _maquereau_, or pimps, each of whom
often had three or four girls working for him at once.

Pg. 221--A great place for friends to gather in the days when I first went to
Montparnasse was the _bougnat_ (shop selling wine, coal and wood, usually
with a zinc bar but no tables) on the corner of the rue Campagne-Premiere,
owned and run by an old Auvergnat, Pere Londiche.

Pg. 248--Another group that formed an important part of Montparnasse life
were the homosexuals.  When I first went to Paris I had never heard of such
people, and thought they must be a recent invention!  Everyone told me
differently, of course, but (Pg. 249--ed.) I don't think they had any in
Manchester, where I was brought up.
   As homos go, I prefer the women to the men--it seems more natural.  In a
bar the women are more quiet and reserved than the men, even though they wear
mannish clothes.

Pg. 251--The fairies particularly, have a hard life among the normal men, who
often resent them, especially after a few drinks.  I always watched for
fights between two such groups--watched to protect the normal men, for the
pansies were usually excellent fighters, despite their effeminate ways.

Pg. 277--Another client here was Mrs. Nell Henry, wife of the jockey Milton
Henry who founded the New York Bar in 1911.

Pg. 294--Fabresse published an entire volume of sketches of me entitled _La
Vie Fantaisiste d'un Barman de Montparnasse_ (The Strange Life of a Barman in
Montparnasse).

Pg. 297--The _croix de vache_ is a cross cut on the face with a knife by a
man to whom the woman has done wrong.


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Sat Nov 11 12:10:58 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 06:10:58 -0600
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.061058.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

There may be some regional bias to the /l/ loss that Ron notes.  In rural
west central Illlinois, near Peoria,
everyone I know uses the /l/.  We have some upland southern dialect around
here, but probably not like in North Carolina.

Tim

----- Original Message -----
From: <RonButters at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 10:38 PM
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC


> I have been making notes every time I hear the word ALCOHOLIC pronounced,
and
> it seems to me that about 2% of the people I listen to say [aek at h)l at k]
> invariantently, even when others in conversation with them consistently
say
> [aelk at h)l at k]. I'm not talking about vocalization of the [l], as in
> [aeuk at h)l at k]; it just ain't there at all. Those who do not have the first
[l]
> do not seem to notice that they lack it, and those who listen to them
speak
> do not seem to notice the absence of the [l] (at least, nobody comments on
> it). There does not seem to be any regional correlation (as there is with,
> say, [hEp] for [hElp], and very little social correlation.
>
> Anyone else notice this? Any explanation?


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Sun Nov 12 05:16:35 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:16:35 -0600
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.231635.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

Aren't  "vunderable" and "/aekoholik/  cases of consonant cluster reduction?
Lots of languages have been unloading un needed consonants for years.

----- Original Message -----
From: sagehen <sagehen at SLIC.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC


> "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> writes:
>
> >My initial impression is that this is just a 'lazy' pronunciation,
> >comparable  -- for example -- to 'antarctic' /&nartIk/ [& = 'ae'
ligature],
> >which I've heard often. I think you'll find the same casual acceptance of
> >this, with one speaker saying /&nartIk/, another /&ntarktIk/, nobody much
> >noticing the distinction.
>
> >Is there any correlation between the elision of the /l/ and the
'northern'
> >high-front pronunciation of /&/?
>
> >Do we hear 'calculator' /k&kj at lejt@r/ with elided /l/ sometimes? I think
so.
>
> >Maybe the silent 'l' often found before /k/ -- as in 'walk', 'folk',
> >'falcon' (variant), etc., etc. -- shows a general tendency for /lk/ >
/k/?
>
> >-- Doug Wilson
> ---------------
> I also often hear "vunerable"  for vulnerable, and less frequently,
> "chirdren" for children.
> A. Murie


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Nov 12 05:25:37 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:25:37 -0700
Subject: Grok -- new/old WOTY?
In-Reply-To: <39F9F77800128C08@deimos.email.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.222537.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The latest PC Magazine has the following from the editor-in-chief, Michael
J. Miller:

        "The latest buzzword among Silicon Valley engineers seems to be
_grok_. People use is to mean an idea that they really understand and buy
into, as in 'I really grok that idea.'
        "Grok first appeared in Robert Heinlein's 1961 science fiction
masterpiece, _Stranger in a Strange Land_."


        Rudy


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Nov 12 05:36:01 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:36:01 -0700
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
In-Reply-To: <39F9F77800128C08@deimos.email.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.223601.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I can see how the l-less pronunciation could evolve from the
vocalized form, much as undoubtedly happened with HELP --> HEHP --> HEP.
However, this does not seem to generalize automatically, as I have never
heard anyone drop the /l/ in ALKALI or ALKALINE, which is a similar
context.


        Rudy


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Nov 12 05:48:46 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:48:46 -0500
Subject: Grok -- new/old WOTY?
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.004846.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Grok has been part of the online lexicon for ages. It was in the original
Jargon File, I believe, and in all subsequent editions of the Hacker's
Dictionary.

It may have gained wider cachet recently in Silicon Valley business circles
because the Industry Standard has a column of the same name and a new
spin-off magazine also called Grok.

Rudolph C Troike wrote:

> The latest PC Magazine has the following from the editor-in-chief, Michael
> J. Miller:
>
>         "The latest buzzword among Silicon Valley engineers seems to be
> _grok_. People use is to mean an idea that they really understand and buy
> into, as in 'I really grok that idea.'
>         "Grok first appeared in Robert Heinlein's 1961 science fiction
> masterpiece, _Stranger in a Strange Land_."
>
>         Rudy


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 12 06:07:42 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:07:42 CST
Subject: Grok -- new/old WOTY?
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.000742.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: Rudolph C Troike <rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Grok -- new/old WOTY?
>Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:25:37 -0700
>
>The latest PC Magazine has the following from the editor-in-chief, Michael
>J. Miller:
>
>         "The latest buzzword among Silicon Valley engineers seems to be
>_grok_. People use is to mean an idea that they really understand and buy
>into, as in 'I really grok that idea.'
>         "Grok first appeared in Robert Heinlein's 1961 science fiction
>masterpiece, _Stranger in a Strange Land_."
>
>
>         Rudy

Yes, I've looked. 1961, tho', it was in the late 1960s the the novel
attained pseudo-cult status. _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ is the true
Heinlein masterpiece. I'm remembering when I first read these novels.

It's weird, but I was going to Piedmont High School when the Freedom Under
Clark Kerr movement broke out a couple miles north. Gee, our 30K homes then
that are now worth $3-10 million now (and my parents that did not hold on
long enough to cash in). I lived on pink-sidewalked, plane-treed Estrella,
where Bonita and Moraga meet. I am actually of the generation that remembers
Leonard J. Waxdex (or some such spelling) and the original bird calling
contest. I was down in the print shop with Mr. A. setting up the school
paper for the first recursion of it. I even remember when the grand gothic
Scottish Highlands building on Magnolia got torn down because of
earthquake-proof-ness (some years later). I forget who was my 10th grade
Shakespeare teacher was, but we accused her of being Miss Rheingold of 1912
or so.

And San Francisco was merely across the bay via AC Transit.

This is the context I remember the Heinlein classics (I preferred Poul
Anderson). What's his name, the teacher in 9th grade algebra: the place I
first grokked Andre Norton's _Judgment on Janus_.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Sun Nov 12 14:04:55 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 09:04:55 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.090455.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The "Pierre Salinger syndrome" (believing something is true just because you
saw it on the Internet) strikes again. Something about that quote from Annie
Hall didn't pass the smell test, so I went out and rented the damn thing.
Sure enough, the script I saw at some Web site had it wrong. Here's what the
character *really* says:

"Not only is he a great agent, but he really gives good meeting."

Changing "meetings" to "meeting" makes all the difference in the world.

Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynne Murphy" <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver


> >In Woody Allen's "Annie Hall" (1977), a character says this:
> >
> >"Not only is he a great agent, but he really gives good meetings."
> >
> >Paul
>
> But that's more likely a play on "give a good party" than "give head".
>
> Lynne


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Sun Nov 12 14:41:36 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 09:41:36 -0500
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.094136.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just a thought: IBM punched cards may have spawned "chad", simply
because the volume might have created a need for the word. Anyone have
contacts with IBM historian-types?

Bob


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Nov 12 15:21:28 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 07:21:28 -0800
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.072128.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

heard on npr this morning: a piece in which "pregnant chad"
(clearly a mass-noun occurrence) was followed not long after
by "chads" (clearly a count-noun occurrence).

looks like "chad" is going the way of "e-mail" (or "email", if
you prefer): many speakers can use it either as a mass noun
("e-mail has been piling up in my mailbox") or a count noun
("two e-mails have just arrived").

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Sun Nov 12 15:42:30 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:42:30 +0000
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
In-Reply-To: <200011121521.HAA23689@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.154230.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>heard on npr this morning: a piece in which "pregnant chad"
>(clearly a mass-noun occurrence) was followed not long after
>by "chads" (clearly a count-noun occurrence).
>
>looks like "chad" is going the way of "e-mail" (or "email", if
>you prefer): many speakers can use it either as a mass noun
>("e-mail has been piling up in my mailbox") or a count noun
>("two e-mails have just arrived").
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


An AP story that quotes a couple of punch-card experts consistently
uses it as a mass noun:

http://salon.com/politics/wire/2000/11/11/experts/index.html

But the rest of the stories on salon.com seem to use it as a count noun.
A possible scenario for the change: If originally the term was used
in contexts like "the counter is jammed up with chad" or "we have to
sweep the chad off the floor" then it would make more sense for it to
be a mass noun--no one needs to pay attention to the individual parts
of it.  But since now the focus is on individual ballot papers with
individual pieces of paper stuck to them, they're perceived as more
countable things.

Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Sun Nov 12 18:57:55 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 12:57:55 -0600
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.125755.0600.>

I'm sure I've heard /aekih>l/ ~ /aekUh>l/  for 'alcohol' in the speech of Southern
whites.  Another word in which this consonant cluster reduction might occur is 'Alka
Seltzer'.  Sonja might find an opportunity to check out these other words.  I agree with
Tim Frazer that it's a matter of consonant cluster reduction.  I don't think it has to go
through a stage in which /l/ is vocalized.  The "sh" in 'shrimp' does not have to go
through some intermediate form as it "becomes" 'srimp' and I don't see a logical necessity
for /l/ to go through an intermediate stage on its way to zero in the dialect(s) in
question.  Literacy and awareness of an "underlying /l/" are probably not a factor in this
population's phonology -- merely the phonotactics of (a) subdialect(s) forbidding [aelk]
with any of the possible realizations of /ae/ and/or /l/.  Sonja might also look at
breaking before velar obstruents in the speech of these individuals.
DMLance

Rudolph C Troike wrote:

>         I can see how the l-less pronunciation could evolve from the
> vocalized form, much as undoubtedly happened with HELP --> HEHP --> HEP.
> However, this does not seem to generalize automatically, as I have never
> heard anyone drop the /l/ in ALKALI or ALKALINE, which is a similar
> context.
>
>         Rudy


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sun Nov 12 19:13:01 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:13:01 -0500
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
In-Reply-To: <a05001902b634699b20b9@[139.184.48.65]>
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.141301.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:42 PM 11/12/00 +0000, you wrote:
>>heard on npr this morning: a piece in which "pregnant chad"
>>(clearly a mass-noun occurrence) was followed not long after
>>by "chads" (clearly a count-noun occurrence).
>>
>>looks like "chad" is going the way of "e-mail" (or "email", if
>>you prefer): many speakers can use it either as a mass noun
>>("e-mail has been piling up in my mailbox") or a count noun
>>("two e-mails have just arrived").
>>
>>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>
>
>An AP story that quotes a couple of punch-card experts consistently
>uses it as a mass noun:
>
>http://salon.com/politics/wire/2000/11/11/experts/index.html
>
>But the rest of the stories on salon.com seem to use it as a count noun.
>A possible scenario for the change: If originally the term was used
>in contexts like "the counter is jammed up with chad" or "we have to
>sweep the chad off the floor" then it would make more sense for it to
>be a mass noun--no one needs to pay attention to the individual parts
>of it.  But since now the focus is on individual ballot papers with
>individual pieces of paper stuck to them, they're perceived as more
>countable things.
>
>Lynne
>--
>M. Lynne Murphy
>Lecturer in Linguistics
>School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
>University of Sussex
>Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
>phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
>fax:    +44(0)1273-671320

This morning on one of the TV roundtables (Sam and Cokie, maybe?), "chads"
(pl.) were explained in detail: one tear, two tears, pregnant ones,
slightly poked ones, etc.  But always as countable, meaning those little
centers that are punched out (we use them in our county too).  I always
wondered what to call the little white dots that spill out all over the
floor from hole punchers--are they chads too?  Which might explain the
conversion to mass noun:  Who spilled all this chad?

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Nov 12 19:59:28 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:59:28 -0600
Subject: Believe You Me
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.135928.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  On Nov. 7 Jordan Rich wrote in regard to the construction Believe You Me:

>One of my co-workers was asking me where this phrase came from.  Any thoughts?
>
------FWIW, this is the normal construction for the formal imperative in
German, e.g.:  "Glauben Sie mir" = Believe me! (literally: Believe you
me!).

        So,  might the construction "Believe you me" possibly have arisen
in English under the influence of German? And are there any studies about
possible German influence on English syntax?

----Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 12 19:46:26 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:46:26 EST
Subject: Cute Ute; Chadgate
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.144626.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CUTE UTE

   The Sunday NEW YORK TIMES, Automobile section, uses "cute ute."  There are
50 Dow Jones database hits, but 21 in the past year.  The earliest "cute ute"
for a sports utility vehicle is the ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS, 11-11-1995, "Suzuki
gets cute," pg. 1C:

   What is it?  A dune buggy?  A golf cart?
   No, a cute ute.

   The LOS ANGELES TIMES, 4-26-1996, uses "cute ute" regarding Toyota's RAV4.
   This cutesy thing ain't goin away.

--------------------------------------------------------
CHADGATE

   I was beaten to the ADS-L punch on "chad."  I hang my chad in shame.
   Sunday's NEW YORK POST has "Chadgate."
   Actor Chad Everett could be behind this.

--------------------------------------------------------
GROK

   PC MAGAZINE editor-in-chief Michael Miller was my editor on THE
POLYTECHNIC (voted an All-America college newspaper) at Rensselaer
Polytechnic Institute.  He's gone on to great heights while I beg newspapers
for decades to give my research away for free, or even to correct errors.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov 12 13:16:26 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:16:26 +0800
Subject: Fwd: "chad" revisited
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.211626.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can anyone (dis)confirm this charming story?   The etymology was
forwarded to me by a former student of mine and long-time puzzler.

Larry

--- begin forwarded text

>>From the mailing list of the National Puzzlers' League...

To: npl-folk at puzzlers.org
Subject: Re: Non-NPL: voting machines
Sender: owner-npl-folk at rev.net

Speaking of voting methods, and somewhat more NPL-related: I was
rather amused to flip on the TV and find figures like Sam Donaldson
encountering, seemingly for the first time, the term "chad" for the
little confetti-like bits that come out of a punched card or paper
tape.

"Chad", it so happens, is a classic example of etymological "back-formation"
(at least, if the etymology suggested in the _Hacker's Dictionary_ is
correct). Someone named Chadless invented the Chadless Keypunch, which
makes a hole by *partially* punching out a little bit of paper and folding
it over (rather than punching it out entirely). Chad got its name (so it
is claimed) because a Chadless Keypunch doesn't produce any.

Ucaoimhu

--- end forwarded text


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 13 03:47:40 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:47:40 EST
Subject: Rap; Gil Scott-Heron novels
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.224740.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Some notes on "rap" and Gill Scott-Heron.
   I started reading New York's AMSTERDAM NEWS and got from January-August
1981.

Summer 1974, THE JOURNAL OF NEGRO EDUCATION, pages 310- 318.
_On Rapping With the Inner-City Dude_
John W. Green, School of Education, Howard University
   Pg. 310--"It be's like that."  Don't understand what that means?  Don't
feel badly; to a large extent, that is what "rapping" is all about.
   Pg. 316--To summarize our "rap session"...

July 1975, EBONY, pg. 28 bio credit--Gil Scott-Heron, 26, is a musician and
writer whose first novel, _The Vulture_, was published when he was 19.  He
also wrote _Small Talk at 125th and Lenox_ (a collection of "rap verse") and
a second novel, _The Nigger Factory_.

25 April 1981, AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 39, col. 2--Bobby Robinson of Enjoy
records of 125th Street, N.Y.C. has just released "Feel the Heartbeat," by
Pumpkin and Freinds, both vocal and instrumental (It is a rap disc).

11 July 1981, AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 43, col. 1:
Marie Moore
_Jack the Rapper_
_"raps" it like it is_
   There is a man you probably would not be familiar with unless you're in
the music business or broadcasting.  His name is _Jack the Rapper_.  He has a
publication that comes out of Florida, but no one escapes his wrath.
(What publication is that?--ed.)

11 July 1981, AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 45, col. 3--Richard "Dimples" Fields /
Dimples / Broadwalk.  Look all you rappers here comes an lp that will truly
have you calling your friends and telling them about this hot tune titled
"She's Got Papers on Me."

31 August 1981, NEWSWEEK, "A Flap Over a Rap," pg. 65, col. 2--In fact,
"Papers"--the title is black slang for "marriage license"...

June 1982, BLACK ENTERPRISE, "Rapping Their Way to Gold," pages 233-238.  Pg.
233, col. 2:
   Sylvia Robinson didn't really want to be at the Harlem World Disco on that
hot Sunday evening in 1979.
   (...)(Col. 3--ed.)
   Robinson, an experienced songwriter and singer, soon scooped three
Englewood, NJ teenagers off the street and into a studio to record _Rapper's
Delight_, a rap record based on Chic's rhythm for "Good Times."  The
Robinsons started a new company called Sugar Hill Records, and dubbed their
rappers the Sugar Hill Gang.  This was the first time New York City's rapping
style had been recorded, and to the mainline music business's amazement, the
record became the hottest seller of 1979, in the United States and Canada,
while also making the Top Ten in Western Europe, Israel, and South Africa.
The Robinsons claim that _Rapper's Delight_ has sold more than 2 million
copies in the US alone, grossing mor e than $3.5 million, and sparking a
legion of imitations.

21 March 1983, TIME, pg. 72, col. 1:
_Chilling Out on Rap Flash_
_New City music brings out the last word in style_
   Def.  Definitely def.  Definitely def, indeed. (...)
   ...this subculture, nicknamed hip hop...

26 May 1983, ROLLING STONE, pg. 18, col. 1:
_TALK THAT TALK/ WALK THAT WALK_
It's fresh.  It's the new deal.  It's called "hip hop."

--------------------------------------------------------
THE VULTURE (1970)
and
THE NIGGER FACTORY (1972)
by Gil Scott-Heron
Payback Press, 1996 and 1999

Pg. viii (1996--ed.)--...a bit of "C.H.A."..."cover his ass."

(From THE VULTURE--ed.)

Pg. 8--...his eyes took on the deep concentration of a man who's really
enjoying his own rap.

Pg. 10--...if he ketch you, yo' ass iz grass.

Pg. 12---"You got trey bags?" I asked.  "Treys _an'_ nickels."

Pg. 23--"An' my rap ain' that good?"  (Rap=excuse--ed.)

Pg. 32--"Whuss happnin'?"

Pg. 33--..."yeah, well dadadadada"... (Yadda-yadda-yadda?--ed.)

Pg. 45--"I don't give a fuck," I snorted.

Pg. 153--"Well, then, my dear, we'll order you a dragon in milk."  "What's
that?" (Pg. 154--ed.)  "A large Coke with a scoop of ice cream."

Pg. 174--"A yard."  "Whew!  Can't be that small if it's worth a yard to you.
A hundred dollars ain' no small action."

(The following is from NIGGER FACTORY, the second novel--ed.)

Pg. 257--"I have a saying for students on my campus.  It says: 'My way or the
highway!'"

Pg. 291--We bad!  We Black!

Pg. 336---Gash man.  Gash man.

Pg. 375--"You the Man!  You the Head Man!"

Pg. 442--"What's up?"

Pg. 462--"Let's list a few things that we want Baker to rap about when the
party starts."


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Mon Nov 13 09:04:24 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 02:04:24 -0700
Subject: /Vlk/ --> /Vhk/ --> /Vk/
In-Reply-To: <39FA00440012ED78@phobos.email.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.020424.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Disagreeing with my good friend Don Lance, Southern /SrImp/ becoming
/srImp/ (loss of contrast of /S/:/s/ before /r/) is in no way parallel to
the vocalization and loss of /l/ in the context V__k (or more generally
V__C). The closest thing to an inverse parallel is Southern loss of /r/
following a (voiceless) dental fricative and preceding a back vowel, as in
"from", "throw", "through".

        Rudy


From editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Mon Nov 13 09:55:12 2000
From: editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 09:55:12 -0000
Subject: Fwd: "chad" revisited
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.095512.0000.>

> Can anyone (dis)confirm this charming story?   The etymology
> was forwarded to me by a former student of mine and long-time
> puzzler.

I've just written a piece about 'chad' for next week's issue of
World Wide Words. What research I've been able to do suggests
strongly that Mr Chadless was fictional. There was a chadless
punch, but the word seems to have been derived from the existing
'chad'.

However, if anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd be more
than interested to hear (before next Saturday, if possible!).


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
<editor at worldwidewords.org>
<http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU  Mon Nov 13 14:13:40 2000
From: HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 09:13:40 -0500
Subject: Southern /r/: was Re: /Vlk/ --> /Vhk/ --> /Vk/
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.091340.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For most Midwesterners I've checked, the /s/ before /r/ is retroflexed, by assimilation to the /r/, not palato-alveolar.  (If you whisper the words "shrimp" and "ship", you can hear the difference in oral cavity resonance clearly.)  This is the same retroflexion found with /t/ and /d/.  I have found contrasts between Midwestern speakers who say /grosri/ and those who say /gros,ri/ (comma marks retroflexion) and also for /n at rsri/ vs. /n at rs,ri/, and I've heard differences between /lVgz,ri/ and lVgZ at rj@s/.

In those dialects that do not retroflex the /s/ before /r/ but have /srimp/ etc. instead, is the /r/different?  Is it less retroflexed than the Midwestern /r/?  I know that Central Indiana has very strong retroflexion.  As a choir director and choral singer, I find it almost impossible to eliminate it from Hoosier choral diction.

Herb Stahlke
Ball State University

>>> rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU 11/13/00 04:04AM >>>
Disagreeing with my good friend Don Lance, Southern /SrImp/ becoming
/srImp/ (loss of contrast of /S/:/s/ before /r/) is in no way parallel to
the vocalization and loss of /l/ in the context V__k (or more generally
V__C). The closest thing to an inverse parallel is Southern loss of /r/
following a (voiceless) dental fricative and preceding a back vowel, as in
"from", "throw", "through".

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 13 14:51:38 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 09:51:38 EST
Subject: Greetings from the CIA!
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.095138.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from the Culinary Institute of America.  What a lovely setting
up here.  Now, what the heck am I gonna have for lunch?

--------------------------------------------------------
COCKTAIL AND WINE DIGEST
by Oscar Haimo
privately printed, 1943, 1944, 1945, 1946

Pg. 71--Mojito Highball.
Pg. 71--Moscow Mule.
2 oz. Vodka
1 split Ginger Beer
        Crushed Ice
        _Serve in mug_
        _Decorate with sprigs of mint_
Pg. 83--Red Snapper Cocktail.
1 1/2 oz. Tomato Juice
3 dashes lime juice
1 dash L&P Sauce
1 1/2 oz. Vodka
   _Salt, pepper and red pepper to taste_
   _Shake well_
   _Serve in Delmonico glass_

COCKTAIL AND WINE DIGEST
by Oscar Haimo
(privately printed) 1943, 1944, 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951,
1952, 1953

Pg. 37--Bloody Mary Cocktail.  Same as Red Snapper Cocktail.  See page 83.

--------------------------------------------------------
CROSBY GAIGE'S
COCKTAIL GUIDE AND LADIES' COMPANION
M Barrows and Company, NY, 1941

Pg. 56--_GASTON LAURYSSEN_
   Mr. Lauryssen, as host at the St. Regis, has made that hotel an exemplar
of excellence and subdued but authentic excellence.
Pg. 57--Old King Cole presides with pleasantly vacuous hospitality over the
bar from which Mr. Lauryssen sends me two recipies from Queen Cole's
household book.
   _Red Snapper_
   2 oz. Tomato Juice
   2. oz. Vodka
   1/2 teaspoon Worcestershire Sauce
   1 pinch Salt
   1 pinch Cayenne Pepper
   1 dash Lemon Juice
   Shake well with ice and serve in a Delmonico glass.

(Here lies our "Bloody Mary" puzzle.  Neither the Bloody Mary nor the Red
Snapper is mentioned in any of the very numerous 1930s drink books that
followed the end of Prohibition.  This, in 1941, is the first Red Snapper
that I've found.  Bloody Mary would appear in the 1946 STORK CLUB BAR BOOK
and the 1947 TRADER VIC'S drink book--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
THE DRINKS OF YESTERYEAR
A MIXOLOGY
By Jere Sullivan
(Privately printed) 1930

   This is the rarest of rare book that I came for.  Unfortunately, there are
no etymologies.
   His bio on page 6 is interesting:

   The Author was for twenty years a "Wine Clerk." (...)
   This training and experience gave him currency as a qualified "Wine Clerk"
and opened to him, for expert's finesse, employment successively at a select
old Boston Club, a nationally known rendesvouz in Washington, a Broadway
Restaurant, two of the most fastidious hotel bars of New York City and
lastly, for years before The Drought, at a Yale world-famous hostelry in New
Haven, Connecticut. (...)
   The drinks of yesteryear hold memories for the Author which he wishes he
could convey.  For twenty years he smilingly served, as he relishes to state
it--All Men and Yale Men and All their Goodly Company, in Boston, Washington,
New York and New Haven... (...)  The Yale Professor--how good an old
fashioned cocktail or toddy seemed to him! (...)
   Pleasantest of all the Author's memories twine themselves around his
contact with Yale men.  He mixed and dispensed for a legion of them as
undergraduates, Alumni and Faculty members.  Their favorite drinks of
yesteryear will be found in this mixology with headnote allusions.  The
Copper Kettle Punch exclusively steeped in their traditions, herein finds its
first publication.  And while they staged their fling, he can truthfully
record there was no scandalizing condititions in attendance.  They drank
always as true Gentlemen and to his mind with lasting good to their
after-lives in terms of experience, disillusionment and above all, of
comeraderie and sublimated friendships.  Real, never snobbish, ever
democratic and generous to a fault, Sociability ruled them, and with a
"Here's to Good Old Yale, Drink'er Down!  Drink'er Down!" infused them for
aye with that spirit, proverbially incomparable--the Yale Spirit!

(Maybe the Yale archives has info on Jere Sullivan?--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 13 16:52:04 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:52:04 EST
Subject: Yale drinks
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.115204.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Oh, all right.  The things I do for that college!

THE DRINKS OF YESTERYEAR
   A MIXOLOGY
Being the 200 Authentic Favorite Formulas of a Pre-Volstead "Wine Clerk" Who
Smilingly Served
   ALL MEN
   and
   YALE MEN
   and
   ALL THEIR GOODLY COMPANY
Whatsoever "Little Hearts Desire"
   Indexed with
Foreword of Fond Recollections
General Instructions
and
Allusional Headnotes to Individual Recipes
(By Jere Sullivan, 1930--ed.)

Pg. 28:
Known to Yale Men Everywhere.
   _Yale._
1/3 French Vermouth
1/3 Gin
1/3 Creme de Yvette
Shake and strain into a cocktail glass

Pg. 41:
   _Copper Kettle_
   Twice or thrice a year, on occasions hoary with custom and ebulient with
spirit, such as initiations, convocations and reunions, this Nectar of Men
was brewed and the Fathers and Sons of Old Eli quaffed it--in almost ritual
of ne'er forgetting toast and pulsing jolly song.
   This Punch is made only in quantity.  Its precise formula depended
obviously on the number in attendance and the conservative or liberal
character of the festive occasion.  The (Pg. 42--ed.) base of the Punch was
Cider and Rum, Champagne and Claret and Maraschino being added to suit, lemon
and sugar also to taste, and enough charged water to adjust to strength.
   Making this Punch a few days ahead insured its being all the better.
Charged water was added only when ready to serve.
   The Author gives herewith a specimen formula of this Punch employed by him
to prepare it for a _spirited reunion of twenty_ Old Grads:

_The Traditional Yale Punch--the Wassail Bowl of Her Social Fraternizations._
6 lemons sliced
1 gallon of Cider
1 quart of St. Croix Rum
1 pint of Maraschino
1 quarter pound of sugar
2 quarts of Champagne
1 pint of Claret.
   These ingredients were compounded on the evening of the nineteenth of the
month; on the afternoon of the twenty-first; the mixture was taken to the
place of reunion, placed in the bowl, a large lump of ice was given it and
when it was about to be partaken, a very little charged water was added to
guarantee it "life."

Pg. 46:
   _Smashes_
   A Smash differed from a Cobbler or Cooler by offering a small and short
rather than a tall and long cooling drink.  It was a hot weather drink, and
of Southern extraction, as evidenced by the Mint.
_Yale._
   Use an old-fashioned Whiskey cocktail glass; add 1/4 loaf of sugar with a
little water and a few sprigs of Mint; crush all together; add a few lumps of
ice; a small quantity of Grenadine syrup; pour a drink of Gin.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 13 18:00:06 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:00:06 EST
Subject: Apache Dance
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.130006.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    OED seems to have "Apache dance" from about 1914.
    This is for Grant Barrett; the other posting was for Yalies.  I try to
spread the stuff around.

PARIS A LA CARTE
by Julian Street
New York: John Lane Company
1914
Copyright 1911 by the Ridgway Company
Copyright 1912 by John Lane Company
Third edition--revised

Drawing opposite page 24:
   ASIDE FROM THE FACT THAT A PAIR OF PROFESSIONALS GIVE THE "APACHE" DANCE
AMONG THE TABLES, THERE IS NO REASON FOR SITTING THERE.

Pg. 68--To these places come the "_Apaches_" (a word which the French have
borrowed from among our Indian names, to designate a bloodthirsty villain),
the "_voyous_," or toughs, who hang about the markets, and the "_maqueraux_,"
with their women.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov 13 06:17:06 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:17:06 +0800
Subject: Yale drinks
In-Reply-To: <c6.d3e00fc.27417634@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.141706.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:52 AM -0500 11/13/00, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>THE DRINKS OF YESTERYEAR
>    A MIXOLOGY
>Being the 200 Authentic Favorite Formulas of a Pre-Volstead "Wine Clerk" Who
>Smilingly Served
>    ALL MEN
>    and
>    YALE MEN
>    and
>    ALL THEIR GOODLY COMPANY
>Whatsoever "Little Hearts Desire"
>    Indexed with
>Foreword of Fond Recollections
>General Instructions
>and
>Allusional Headnotes to Individual Recipes
>(By Jere Sullivan, 1930--ed.)
>
>Pg. 28:
>Known to Yale Men Everywhere.
>    _Yale._
>1/3 French Vermouth
>1/3 Gin
>1/3 Creme de Yvette
>Shake and strain into a cocktail glass
>
Lost wisdom of the (s)ages, I fear.  Not only does this one not seem
to be known to Yale men even in New Haven (let alone everywhere)
anymore, most if not all of us can't even get our hands on a good
bottle of Creme de Yvette.  Or on why it isn't spelled Creme
d'Yvette, whatever it is.

larry


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Nov 13 19:35:28 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:35:28 -0600
Subject: /Vlk/ --> /Vhk/ --> /Vk/
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.133528.0600.>

Rudy, no disagreement.  I knew they weren't parallel.  I just couldn't think of a truly
parallel example.  There may be some articulatory feature in the /ae/ of Sonja's
population that does not allow a vocalized /l/ before /k/.  Have the srimp-speakers *lost*
a contrast?  Did this dialect have such a contrast historically?  How would an
"unsophisticated" srimp-speaker write this word in a dictation exercise?  I'm essentially
questioning the practice of assigning the same underlying forms in all dialects of the
same language and then applying the same phonological rules to derive all surface forms.
In the case in question, does the /l/ HAVE to go through a vocalization stage?  Generally,
vocalization affects the preceding vowel, in which case we would need an additional
fronting rule to take Sonja's speakers' vowels back to the articulatory position of /ae/
in other 'ak' words like axe.
DMLance

Rudolph C Troike wrote:

> Disagreeing with my good friend Don Lance, Southern /SrImp/ becoming
> /srImp/ (loss of contrast of /S/:/s/ before /r/) is in no way parallel to
> the vocalization and loss of /l/ in the context V__k (or more generally
> V__C). The closest thing to an inverse parallel is Southern loss of /r/
> following a (voiceless) dental fricative and preceding a back vowel, as in
> "from", "throw", "through".
>
>         Rudy


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 13 19:38:21 2000
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:38:21 -0500
Subject: While we're waiting for the election returns
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.143821.0500.>

Did it strike anyone else as interesting that among the northern states
voting for Gore (from Minn > Wisc > Iowa > Illinois > Mich and then Penn
> Maine except NH) there's a noticeable gab formed by Indiana and Ohio?
In the 20th-century the border states of WV, KY & TN have become
southern.  I thought that in this first election of the 21st-century OH
& IND had joined them.  Certainly, southern Ohio & Hoosier-apex parts of
Indiana are southern culturally, even as far north as Indianapolis and
Columbus.  Carver suggests that the old Midland dialect area is a place
where northern and southern vocabulary overlap, "a transitional layer
between the Upper South and Lower North, which it overlaps" (174).

The Gore states of "the left coast," the upper Midwest centered on
Chicago and Minneapolis, and the old east centered on Philadelphia, NY &
Boston then define "northern" with the Atlantic and Gulf states (and the
expansion area of the great plains) and the mountain states "southern."
An interesting cultural configuration.

-- db
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 13 20:20:51 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:20:51 EST
Subject: Tex-Mex (continued)
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.152051.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has "Tex-Mex" food from the early 1970s.  I had beaten that by about a
year.  I do not have the "Tex-Mex" DARE entry handy, for obvious reasons.

FIESTAS MEXICANAS
MENUS AND RECIPES
by Eleanor Ringland and Lucy Ringland Winston
The Naylor Company
San Antonio, Texas
First edition 1965
2nd printing 1966
Second edition 1967
2nd printing 1968
3rd printing 1972

Pg. 38:
   _Recipes for Tex-Mex Cocktail Party_
1. GUACAMOLE...
2. CHILE CON QUESO...

(Nothing new or additional to report on chimichanga & friends--ed.)


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov 13 20:38:19 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:38:19 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.153819.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jeffrey William McKeough   <jwm at spdcc.com>  writes:
>>>>>
"Well it was more than 5 years ago for me, but if you
spent a lot of time moving really fast you may be OK." -Oly
<<<<<

Near-light speed... that's REALLY bookin'!


-- Mark
"Someone's sent out the New Australian Grammar to Malaya nearly a
 century before it was invented, and I'm going to be all day
 sorting it out."     -- Diana Wynne Jones, _A Tale of Time City_


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov 13 20:41:35 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:41:35 -0500
Subject: english only passes in utah
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.154135.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> writes:

>>>>>
No.  The fed's tried to convince us we were "Utahans"
a while back, but that fell flat on its face.  If my
recall isn't totally fuzzy, Sen. Hatch even brought up
on the Senate floor the question as to whether the
Federal government was to refer to a resident of Utah
as "Utahn" (prefered and used locally) or "Utahan"
(official fed usage at the time).  I don't recall
whether or not there was ever an "official"
resolution.
<<<<<

Like "marihuana", spelled thus ONLY by the US Government (and maybe some of its subdivisions).


-- Mark
Sf is dreaming about the universe. Fantasy is turning the universe into
dream. The two are rarely compatible... but they are as close kin as wind
and cloud.


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov 13 20:52:36 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:52:36 -0500
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.155236.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold Zwicky <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU> writes:
>>>>>
fascinating.  here in california i've seen "chad" used only
as a mass noun.  so it would have to be "hanging bits/pieces of chad".
<<<<<

Ah! Another county heard from!

The first formal programming course I took was in 1971 at Hunter College in
NYC. The language was FORTRAN and the medium was punch cards. The little
rectangular bits that were punched out were called "chad", as a mass noun.
Like Arnold, I haven't heard it as a count noun till the current brouhaha.

This memory came up when I heard count "chad". Late last week I heard a
song on the radio as recorded, way back, by Chad and Jeremy. And as our
synagogue choir rehearsed a new setting of the Shema, I kept getting mental
interference seeing the transliterated Hebrew words syllabified under the
notes:

          A-  do-  nai   eh--     chad


-- Mark A. Mandel
Some days it's not even worth...


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Nov 13 21:21:20 2000
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 16:21:20 -0500
Subject: While we're waiting for the election returns
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.162120.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Replying to David Bergdahl's:

>>In the 20th-century the border states of WV, KY & TN have become
southern. <<

Those states have been "Southern" much further back into history, by several
measures.


>>I thought that in this first election of the 21st-century OH & IND had
joined them.<<

According to the Statistical Abstract of the US, OH electoral votes have
gone to the Republican presidential candidate in 7 of the past 11 national
elections (1956-1996), exceptions being 1964, 1976, 1992, and 1996.  OH has
been up for grabs at times, but tends to go for Republican presidents.  And
despite some pockets of southern OH dialect tendencies (mostly in less
populous counties), I would in no way characterize the whole state as
"Southern" by any stretch -- linguistically, socially, or geographically.

IN has long been staunchly Republican in national elections -- it voted
Democratic once (1964) in the past 11 elections.  So it is not at all
unusual for IN to go Republican.

Finally, I don't believe one can make a good case that national election
preferences break down on purely Northern vs. Southern grounds.  In
addition, while the Northeast and CA are now Democratic strongholds
(excepting New Hampshire), this has only recently become so.  CA voted for
Republican presidents in 8 of the past 11 national races (D in 64, 92, and
96).  And, of course, Reagan was governor there for 2 terms, and won the
state in both of his races.  VT and ME have recently gone Republican more
often than Democratic (8 for 11 and 7 for 11, respectively), and CT has
bounced back and forth (6 for R, 5 for D).

This latest election is anomalous in a number of ways.

Frank Abate


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Mon Nov 13 21:46:20 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:46:20 -0600
Subject: While we're waiting for the election returns
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.154620.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

If you look at Jim Hartmann's pronunciation article in the frontmatter to
Vol. I of DARE, you will see some pronuncation maps shaped very much like
the area that Bush (apparently) carried in this election.  The same for the
1992 election, except that Clinton carried Ohio, so that the Hoosier
(republican?) apex is more obvious.

----- Original Message -----
From: David Bergdahl <bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 1:38 PM
Subject: While we're waiting for the election returns


> Did it strike anyone else as interesting that among the northern states
> voting for Gore (from Minn > Wisc > Iowa > Illinois > Mich and then Penn
> > Maine except NH) there's a noticeable gab formed by Indiana and Ohio?
> In the 20th-century the border states of WV, KY & TN have become
> southern.  I thought that in this first election of the 21st-century OH
> & IND had joined them.  Certainly, southern Ohio & Hoosier-apex parts of
> Indiana are southern culturally, even as far north as Indianapolis and
> Columbus.  Carver suggests that the old Midland dialect area is a place
> where northern and southern vocabulary overlap, "a transitional layer
> between the Upper South and Lower North, which it overlaps" (174).
>
> The Gore states of "the left coast," the upper Midwest centered on
> Chicago and Minneapolis, and the old east centered on Philadelphia, NY &
> Boston then define "northern" with the Atlantic and Gulf states (and the
> expansion area of the great plains) and the mountain states "southern."
> An interesting cultural configuration.
>
> -- db
> ____________________________________________________________________
> David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
> tel:  (740) 593-2783
> 366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
> (740) 593-2818


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Nov 13 21:51:22 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 16:51:22 -0500
Subject: Yale drinks
In-Reply-To: <p04320404b635375218e8@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.165122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... most if not all of us can't even get our hands on a good
>bottle of Creme de Yvette.  Or on why it isn't spelled Creme
>d'Yvette, whatever it is.

It seems to be a trade name for creme de violette or something very similar:

http://hotwired.lycos.com/cocktail/archive/links/nc_creme_de_violette.html

Possibly it is not produced any more. There are other similar products; e.g.,

http://www.benoit-serres.com/pages/right3.html

-- Doug Wilson


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 13 22:06:00 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 16:06:00 CST
Subject: Greetings from the CIA!
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.160600.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>(Here lies our "Bloody Mary" puzzle. Neither the Bloody Mary nor the Red
>Snapper is mentioned in any of the very numerous 1930s drink books that
>followed the end of Prohibition. This,
>in 1941, is the first Red Snapper that I've found. Bloody Mary would appear
>in the 1946 STORK CLUB BAR BOOK and the 1947 TRADER VIC'S drink book--ed.)

I remember seeing an add for 'Snappy-Tom', or perhaps it's 'Snap-E-Tom', or
the some such in a late 40s or early 50s bound volume of old Life magazines.
They were advertising in the 70s, as I remember, and the design of the can
had not changed much. These were little itty bitty cans, about the size and
shape of a small can of tomato paste. The product was a zesty tomato juice,
a kind of Bloody Mary mix.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Nov 13 22:52:09 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:52:09 -0500
Subject: Fwd: "chad" revisited
In-Reply-To: <3A0FBA80.10311.44BF89@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.175209.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > Can anyone (dis)confirm this charming story?   The etymology
> > was forwarded to me by a former student of mine and long-time
> > puzzler.
>
>I've just written a piece about 'chad' for next week's issue of
>World Wide Words. What research I've been able to do suggests
>strongly that Mr Chadless was fictional. There was a chadless
>punch, but the word seems to have been derived from the existing
>'chad'.
>
>However, if anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd be more
>than interested to hear (before next Saturday, if possible!).

Was there ever anyone named "Chadless" in the world at all? (I wouldn't be
surprised either way.)

MW dates "chad" from 1947. My RH says "1945-50".

Teletype machines use(d) two types of punched tape: chad tape and chadless
tape (really two types of punch I suppose). The teletype hobbyist sites on
the Web refer to "chad" and "chadless" a lot. They never capitalize
"chadless". The references are to old machinery, 1960's and earlier. I find
multiple references to "chad tape" and none to "chad cards" -- suggesting
(not decisively) that the earlier use of the word might have been in
reference to tape rather than cards. The chads from tape are apparently
discs, and I've seen the incompletely separated ones likened to toilet lids.

Apparently "chad" occurs in countable and uncountable versions.

Webster's Third (1961?) gives the best tentative etymology I've seen: from
Scots "chad" = "gravel".

Several Scots dictionaries (including the big one) show this word, "chad" =
gravel, or the small stones in a riverbed.

This seems reasonable to me, and I can't find a better candidate.

Why a Scots word? Maybe it dates from the US-British collaboration during
WW II, when primitive "computers" and similar devices were used in
cryptography, etc. -- the early days of punched cards and tapes, at least
in quantity, I think. (Or were there ticker-tape machines which used
punched tape?)

Is the OED silent?

-- Doug Wilson


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 13 23:19:00 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:19:00 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Query to ADS
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.181900.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A friend of mine is teaching a course for elem.-jr. hi English/Language
Arts teachers this Winter on "The Development of American
English."  Wolfram & Schilling-Estes is too long and technical for this
course.  Does anyone have a good recommendation for a course that meets
twice a week for 10 weeks (and will be taught largely by microwave?!).  In
Linguistics we teach a general intro. to language using Fromkin and Rodman,
plus a course on dialects using W & S-E, but this is a more specialized
course offered by the English Dept.  So, a bit of historical development,
plus current issues and varieties, would be primary.
Here's her note:

>X-Sender: hysmith at oak.cats.ohiou.edu
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2
>Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:00:23 -0500
>To: flanigan at ohio.edu
>From: Stephanie Hysmith <hysmith at ohio.edu>
>Subject: Query to ADS
>Cc: sh120888 at ohio.edu
>
>Special request to post to the ADS list a query on a good, basic textbook
>on the development of American English for education majors who are
>concentrating on language arts for grades 4-9.
>As I told you this is for a regional campus. I think some of them (or all)
>may have had Linguistics 270 but that's not for certain nor is it a
>prerequisite, so a chapter on phonetics would certainly be helpful. Plus I
>really want to emphasize dialect sensitivity and acceptance, so regional
>dialects as well as social would be welcome.  I want to include a bit
>about lexical expansion, such as borrowings from other languages, and
>certainly something on discourse strategies. I just don't want to
>duplicate 270, that's my fear.

>Please ask people to respond directly to me at <sh120888 at ohio.edu>
>Thanks for your input.
>Stephanie


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov 13 13:24:57 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:24:57 +0800
Subject: Greetings from the CIA!
In-Reply-To: <F203XQQez1enAqpfkNs000003a7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.212457.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>(Here lies our "Bloody Mary" puzzle. Neither the Bloody Mary nor the Red
>>Snapper is mentioned in any of the very numerous 1930s drink books that
>>followed the end of Prohibition. This,
>>in 1941, is the first Red Snapper that I've found. Bloody Mary would appear
>>in the 1946 STORK CLUB BAR BOOK and the 1947 TRADER VIC'S drink book--ed.)
>
>I remember seeing an add for 'Snappy-Tom', or perhaps it's 'Snap-E-Tom', or
>the some such in a late 40s or early 50s bound volume of old Life magazines.
>They were advertising in the 70s, as I remember, and the design of the can
>had not changed much. These were little itty bitty cans, about the size and
>shape of a small can of tomato paste. The product was a zesty tomato juice,
>a kind of Bloody Mary mix.
>_________________________________________________________________________
I've gotten those little cans more recently than that on airplanes; I
usually request "Bloody Mary Mix" when I'm asked for a drink
preference.  Anymore :) , they usually convey it to me in "Mr. and
Mrs. T" brand cans, but "Snap-E-Tom" was in widespread use on the
flight-attendant carts until the last few years.

larry


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Tue Nov 14 02:16:30 2000
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:16:30 -0600
Subject: "grok" and Robert A. Heinlein
In-Reply-To: <20001113050027.1515481E2@brea.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.201630.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Heinlein is also responsible for the word "waldo," which seems to have
gone out of use.  From his short novel _Waldo_.

Dan Goodman
dsgood at visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Tue Nov 14 03:11:46 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:11:46 -0600
Subject: Fwd: "chad" revisited
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.211146.0600.>

"Douglas G. Wilson" wrote:

> (snip)
>
> MW dates "chad" from 1947. My RH says "1945-50".

(snip)

Furthermore, MW-10 says "also : a piece of chad," so it has been used as a count noun in
the past.
DMLance


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Tue Nov 14 04:40:45 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:40:45 -0600
Subject: "money" as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.224045.0600.>

I can't help asking if "money" as quasi-pronoun has any relationship to
"money talks and shit walks".

-- mike salovesh   <salovesh at niu.edu>     PEACE !!

Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
> In HDAS, under _money_ 'friend (in direct address)' (e.g.
> "Yo, money, whassup?"), we have two examples where this
> _money_ is functioning as a quasi-pronoun: "Money
> [i.e. 'he'] can rap" and "Leave money [i.e. 'him']
> alone".
>
> I have a vague sense that I've encountered this elsewhere, or
> that it is at least slightly common, but I can't find any
> additional examples. Parallel examples with other AAVE
> direct-address terms sound plausible to my ear (e.g.
> "Homes was doin' great!" (invented ex.)), but I can't find
> evidence for them either.
>
> Is anyone familiar with this usage--preferably with
> examples, but at least able to confirm or refute my
> suspicion that the construction has at least some
> currency? Is this construction or parallels used
> in any other way?
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED

--

!


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Nov 14 12:13:45 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:13:45 -0500
Subject: "Ginned up"
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.071345.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was asked recently about the first use of "ginned up" or "gin up", meaning
"to engineer" or "to excite." The (RH)HDAS has the original "to liquor up"
sense from the late 19th century, but the more modern senses only from 1973.
That's a big gap. Has it been closed or at least narrowed in the last six
years? None of my other sources even mentions it, and I tried searching the
ADS archives but received a "Method Not Allowed" error.

Paul
http://www.mcfedries.com/


From janivars at BAHNHOF.SE  Tue Nov 14 13:00:31 2000
From: janivars at BAHNHOF.SE (Jan Ivarsson)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:00:31 +0100
Subject: Yale drinks
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.140031.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another "Yale cocktail", found in a Swedish book: 200 Cocktailsrecept by T. Iceman, 1931.

1 glass of gin (dry)
1 dash of angostura
3 dashes of orange-bitter
Pour and add a little Vichy water (soda) and a few drops of lemon juice

Jan Ivarsson, Sweden
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: den 13 november 2000 17:52
Subject: Yale drinks


>    Oh, all right.  The things I do for that college!
>
> THE DRINKS OF YESTERYEAR
>    A MIXOLOGY
> Being the 200 Authentic Favorite Formulas of a Pre-Volstead "Wine Clerk" Who
> Smilingly Served
>    ALL MEN
>    and
>    YALE MEN
>    and
>    ALL THEIR GOODLY COMPANY
> Whatsoever "Little Hearts Desire"
>    Indexed with
> Foreword of Fond Recollections
> General Instructions
> and
> Allusional Headnotes to Individual Recipes
> (By Jere Sullivan, 1930--ed.)
>
> Pg. 28:
> Known to Yale Men Everywhere.
>    _Yale._
> 1/3 French Vermouth
> 1/3 Gin
> 1/3 Creme de Yvette
> Shake and strain into a cocktail glass
>
> Pg. 41:
>    _Copper Kettle_
>    Twice or thrice a year, on occasions hoary with custom and ebulient with
> spirit, such as initiations, convocations and reunions, this Nectar of Men
> was brewed and the Fathers and Sons of Old Eli quaffed it--in almost ritual
> of ne'er forgetting toast and pulsing jolly song.
>    This Punch is made only in quantity.  Its precise formula depended
> obviously on the number in attendance and the conservative or liberal
> character of the festive occasion.  The (Pg. 42--ed.) base of the Punch was
> Cider and Rum, Champagne and Claret and Maraschino being added to suit, lemon
> and sugar also to taste, and enough charged water to adjust to strength.
>    Making this Punch a few days ahead insured its being all the better.
> Charged water was added only when ready to serve.
>    The Author gives herewith a specimen formula of this Punch employed by him
> to prepare it for a _spirited reunion of twenty_ Old Grads:
>
> _The Traditional Yale Punch--the Wassail Bowl of Her Social Fraternizations._
> 6 lemons sliced
> 1 gallon of Cider
> 1 quart of St. Croix Rum
> 1 pint of Maraschino
> 1 quarter pound of sugar
> 2 quarts of Champagne
> 1 pint of Claret.
>    These ingredients were compounded on the evening of the nineteenth of the
> month; on the afternoon of the twenty-first; the mixture was taken to the
> place of reunion, placed in the bowl, a large lump of ice was given it and
> when it was about to be partaken, a very little charged water was added to
> guarantee it "life."
>
> Pg. 46:
>    _Smashes_
>    A Smash differed from a Cobbler or Cooler by offering a small and short
> rather than a tall and long cooling drink.  It was a hot weather drink, and
> of Southern extraction, as evidenced by the Mint.
> _Yale._
>    Use an old-fashioned Whiskey cocktail glass; add 1/4 loaf of sugar with a
> little water and a few sprigs of Mint; crush all together; add a few lumps of
> ice; a small quantity of Grenadine syrup; pour a drink of Gin.


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Nov 14 14:16:14 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:16:14 -0500
Subject: Technology terms acquiring non-technical meanings
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.091614.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm interested in what I'll call "multiple-personality" technology terms
that maintain both their original technical meaning and a second
non-technical meaning. For example, the technical meaning of the word
bandwidth is "the information-carrying capacity of a transmission medium."
Now you hear some people talk about bandwidth in the sense of "the
information-processing ability of a person."

What is this type of semantic change called? In The Cambridge Encyclopedia
of the English Language, David Crystal talks about a form of semantic change
called "extension" where "a lexeme widens its meaning," Is that what we're
talking about here?

If you have examples that I can add to my list, I'd be happy to hear them.

Thanks a bunch.

Paul
http://www.mcfedries.com/


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov 14 01:27:49 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:27:49 +0800
Subject: Yale drinks
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001113142254.025e2b10@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.092749.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Doug Wilson writes (in response to my plaintive cry about the Yale cocktail):
>>... most if not all of us can't even get our hands on a good
>>bottle of Creme de Yvette.  Or on why it isn't spelled Creme
>>d'Yvette, whatever it is.
>
>It seems to be a trade name for creme de violette or something very similar:
>
>http://hotwired.lycos.com/cocktail/archive/links/nc_creme_de_violette.html
>
>Possibly it is not produced any more. There are other similar products; e.g.,
>
>http://www.benoit-serres.com/pages/right3.html

I should have checked the web, of course.  Thanks for the references;
the latter one is especially provocative, since it takes us from Yale
in general to our new president-elect or pretender to the throne
(depending on your political affiliation) in particular:

                          W

                           7 / 10 Violette
                           3 / 10 Vodka
                           Couvrir de crème fraîche

Yes, a W.  Of course, this is a French site, so it's pronounced a
"double-V" [dubl at ve], where the two V's are the Violette and the
Vodka.  But it's nice to know we'll have an official drink for the
new administration, if that's the one we get.  I assume if it's Gore,
we can invent some variant of the Bloody Mary.

(Was that non-partisan enough for the apoliticos in the group?)

larry, still wondering why it's Creme de Yvette and not Creme d'Yvette


From jessie at SIRSI.COM  Tue Nov 14 14:47:32 2000
From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:47:32 -0600
Subject: more chad
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.084732.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Apologies in advance if these have been mentioned in the chad discussion:

pregnant chad
stippled chad (I think)
hanging chad

All three were used on CNN this morning; however, no explanations were given
for "pregnant" and "stippled".

Jessie Emerson


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Tue Nov 14 15:02:09 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (George S. Cole)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:02:09 -0500
Subject: Chicken lights...
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.100209.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a recent conversation with a long-haul trucker, I noted that on my
almost daily trek on I-81, I see a number of situations where a trucker
is speeding, comes up on a point in the road where, to the side, a
Pennsylvania state trooper is sitting in wait.  The trucker, of course,
hits his brakes, and the bright lights of the truck serve as a warning
that a state police officer is nearby.

The person with whom I was talking laughed, and said "those are his
chicken lights".  I asked for a clarification, and he said that when the
lights light up, those are chicken lights.  He mentioned that he knew of
one trucker who was experimenting with using a switch to turn off the
lights that react to braking activity, except for the times of a DOT
inspection.

When you step on your brake, and the lights come on, and can be seen by
the police officer, that is an indication that you know that you might
have been speeding.  So, the other trucker was testing a method of
hiding his braking activity.

Most of the web sources that I've looked at mention 'chicken lights' in
the mere sense of lights.  None that I've seen refer to the braking
light display as being 'chicken lights.'

http://home.att.net/~jeff.marck/suspect.htm
http://www.layover.com/slang.htm
http://www.highwaymanonline.com/Cool_Stuff/King_of_the_Road/body_king_of_the_road.html

Would like to know if anyone is aware of a source for the 'braking light
display' use of chicken lights.

George S. Cole    gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Nov 14 15:01:37 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:01:37 -0500
Subject: more chad
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.100137.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A "pregnant" chad is a chad that is only indented slightly and is still
fully attached to the card. I've also seen them called "dimpled" chads. I
haven't heard of "stippled" chad. Perhaps you heard "dimpled." Here are some
others:

hanging chad - only one corner remains attached to the card.
swinging chad - two corners remain attached to the card.
tri-chad - three corners remain attached to the card.

Apparently, the above three will be accepted by a hand count, but in most
cases not by a machine count (because the attached chad would likely block
the hole when the card is fed through the machine). Pregnant chads are not
counted either way.

Any others?

Paul
http://www.mcfedries.com/

> Apologies in advance if these have been mentioned in the chad discussion:
>
> pregnant chad
> stippled chad (I think)
> hanging chad
>
> All three were used on CNN this morning; however, no explanations were
given
> for "pregnant" and "stippled".
>
> Jessie Emerson


From Allynherna at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 14 15:26:17 2000
From: Allynherna at AOL.COM (Allynherna at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:26:17 EST
Subject: "money" as quasi-pronoun
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.102617.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Couldn't the use of "money" as a quasi-pronoun come from "easy money"?  In
the Los Angeles area this is something that you hear people teasingly call
their friends and co-workers.
Allyn Partin-Hernandez


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Tue Nov 14 15:35:38 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:35:38 -0600
Subject: "Ginned up"
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.093538.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Paul wrote:

> I was asked recently about the first use of "ginned up" or "gin up", meaning
> "to engineer" or "to excite." The (RH)HDAS has the original "to liquor up"
> sense from the late 19th century, but the more modern senses only from 1973.

Is it used in the same contexts as "gen up" -- as in a network server?
I've always assumed that "gen" in this sense comes from "generate."
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From cbooth at ES.COM  Tue Nov 14 16:15:28 2000
From: cbooth at ES.COM (cbooth at ES.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:15:28 -0700
Subject: Yale drink
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.091528.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Internet, that remarkable educational device, apparently won't help us
answer Larry's question. Google comes up with Creme Yvette, Creme d'Yvette,
and Crème de Yvette:
http://www.barnonedrinks.com/tips/dictionary/c.html:
"Creme Yvette - A violet coloured liqueur made from Parma violets, but now
almost impossible to find since the production has stopped."
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/violet/msg0418111218951.html:
"The Charles Jacquin company used to make a violet liqueur called Creme
d'Yvette but to my dismay stopped making it 25 years ago!"
http://cocktails.about.com/food/cocktails/library/recipes/blyalehtm.htm:
"Yale Cocktail - 1 1/2 oz. Gin, 1/2 oz. Dry Vermouth, Dash of Bitters, 1
tsp. Creme de Yvette or Blue Curacao. Stir with ice & strain into a chilled
cocktail glass."
http://hotwired.lycos.com/cocktail/archive/links/nc_creme_de_violette.html:
"This sweet liquor is almost always made in France, though the brand Crème
de Yvette - named after the turn-of-the-century French actress Yvette
Gilbert - is still made with a purple hue by Jacquin in Philly."
There's a Lautrec drawing of Yvette Gilbert at
http://www.eposterman.com/shop/item/53-200-0-6104.asp.
One way to solve the problem would be for someone to come up with an actual
bottle of the stuff so we can see how the Jacquin people spell it. I'd
gladly take on such a research project myself, but it would undoubtedly
prove fruitless for me to do it here in Utah. Somebody who lives in New York
or Chicago or Paris or someplace like that should do it. 


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 14 16:16:05 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:16:05 -0500
Subject: microwave (was: Query to ADS)
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.111605.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> writes:

>>>>>
A friend of mine is teaching a course for elem.-jr. hi English/Language
Arts teachers this Winter on "The Development of American
English."  Wolfram & Schilling-Estes is too long and technical for this
course.  Does anyone have a good recommendation for a course that meets
twice a week for 10 weeks (and will be taught largely by microwave?!).
<<<<<

An indication of semantic shift (or what to call it?): My first reaction to
this was to the thought of a course taught largely by microwave *oven*:
"How in the heck do they do *THAT*?!"

While I theoretically deprecate this kind of truncation (how many people in
the sixties thought that "transistor" meant a small portable radio?),
microwave ovens are common enough in my life and language, and microwaves
themselves (i.e., electromagnetic waves of wavelength 1mm-1m) rare enough,
that like most Americans I use the single word for the appliance.

-- Mark
Imprimis: Pro nugis noli sudare.
Secundus: Omnia sunt nugae.


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Tue Nov 14 16:32:08 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:32:08 -0500
Subject: Query to ADS
In-Reply-To: <OF811CAFD0.E2836393-ON85256997.0058B027@dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.113208.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>A friend of mine is teaching a course for elem.-jr. hi English/Language
>Arts teachers this Winter on "The Development of American
>English."  Wolfram & Schilling-Estes is too long and technical for this
>course.  Does anyone have a good recommendation for a course that meets
>twice a week for 10 weeks (and will be taught largely by microwave?!).

Has your friend looked at the two books edited by Rebecca Wheeler? I
think that _The Workings of Language_ might be useful. (Praeger 1999).

Bethany


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Tue Nov 14 17:22:22 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:22:22 EST
Subject: cut-and-paste generation
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.122222.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        From an from The Chronicle of Higher Education
(http://chronicle.com), Tuesday, November 14, 2000: Digital-Library
Company Plans to Charge Students a Monthly Fee  for Access, By GOLDIE
BLUMENSTYK

[The article concerns a new company that intends to sell access to
books and journal articles to students]

  As for how Questia might affect the way students research and
write, Ms. Okerson says the service just creates a more robust
approach to what many already do now with information they  locate on
the Internet. "I keep hearing this called the  'cut-and-paste
generation,'" she says. "It's going to be up to  teachers and
librarians to keep instilling the values of  teaching and research."

[The "cut-and paste generation" remark is explained by passages which
appeared earlier in the original article:]

  Questia says it will have more than 50,000 scholarly books and
  journals in its electronic collection by January, and five
  times as many by 2003. The company says its service will help
  "time-crunched students" write their papers more quickly.

***

  Troy Williams, a 1998 Harvard Law School graduate who is
  Questia's founder, president, and C.E.O., says the service's
  search-and-copy features respond to the way students really do
  their papers. "They're not reading the books," says Mr.
  Williams.

GAT


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov 14 17:44:01 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:44:01 -0500
Subject: microwave (was: Query to ADS)
In-Reply-To: <OF811CAFD0.E2836393-ON85256997.0058B027@dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.124401.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:16 AM 11/14/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> writes:
>
> >>>>>
>A friend of mine is teaching a course for elem.-jr. hi English/Language
>Arts teachers this Winter on "The Development of American
>English."  Wolfram & Schilling-Estes is too long and technical for this
>course.  Does anyone have a good recommendation for a course that meets
>twice a week for 10 weeks (and will be taught largely by microwave?!).
><<<<<
>
>An indication of semantic shift (or what to call it?): My first reaction to
>this was to the thought of a course taught largely by microwave *oven*:
>"How in the heck do they do *THAT*?!"
>
>While I theoretically deprecate this kind of truncation (how many people in
>the sixties thought that "transistor" meant a small portable radio?),
>microwave ovens are common enough in my life and language, and microwaves
>themselves (i.e., electromagnetic waves of wavelength 1mm-1m) rare enough,
>that like most Americans I use the single word for the appliance.
>
>-- Mark
>Imprimis: Pro nugis noli sudare.
>Secundus: Omnia sunt nugae.

I have to admit I know nothing about this technology.  "Microwave" is the
term the gurus use here, but what is the full, or better, term?  All I know
is that the main and the branch campus are hooked up somehow, the
instructor is videoed, and the class can respond "interactively"--but the
one teacher I know who's done it says he had very poor response from the
more than usually passive students.  Has anybody else tried this?

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 14 19:25:51 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:25:51 EST
Subject: Query to ADS
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.142551.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

< A friend of mine is teaching a course for elem.-jr. hi English/Language
Arts teachers this Winter on "The Development of American
English."  Wolfram & Schilling-Estes is too long and technical for this
course.  Does anyone have a good recommendation for a course that meets
twice a week for 10 weeks (and will be taught largely by microwave?!).  >>

Well, you just might have the friend look at a brand new book that is
certainly not too long or technical, being aimed at a non-specialist audience:

_How We Talk: American Regional English Today_  by Allan Metcalf (Houghton
Mifflin, Nov. 2000). While it mainly covers current regional variation (in
both pronunciation and vocabulary), it also has a brief historical
introduction, and it also has a chapter on ethnic dialects, and even one on
the movies. It comes in both hardcover and paperback.

- A.M.


From lingthings at YAHOO.COM  Tue Nov 14 20:55:23 2000
From: lingthings at YAHOO.COM (David Sanders)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:55:23 -0800
Subject: secular prayer
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.125523.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm working on a discourse analysis project on secular
prayer, or prayer that is not religion specific.  I
would like to look at lexical elements, such as
neutral terms for deity along with other
religion-neutral words that may be unique to (or help
to characterize) secular prayer, and structual
elements.  I also would like to look at social
elements, such as the situations in which these
"prayers" are expected or appropriate, such as in
schools or in political addresses or in greeting
cards.  I haven't been able to find much linguistic
research on this topic, and I was wondering if anybody
could point me in a useful direction.  Thank you.

David Sanders
University of Memphis

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/


From janivars at BAHNHOF.SE  Tue Nov 14 21:34:09 2000
From: janivars at BAHNHOF.SE (Jan Ivarsson)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 22:34:09 +0100
Subject: Yale drinks
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.223409.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Actually, it is "Crème d'Yvette". See e.g. Cook's Thesaurus at http://wwwfoodsubs.com/Liqueurs.html

"creme de violette (crème de violette)  Substitutes:  Crème d'Yvette (also a violet-based liqueur, but with a stronger flavor) or another violet-flavored liqueur"

Jan Ivarsson, Sweden

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: den 14 november 2000 02:27
Subject: Re: Yale drinks


> Doug Wilson writes (in response to my plaintive cry about the Yale cocktail):
> >>... most if not all of us can't even get our hands on a good
> >>bottle of Creme de Yvette.  Or on why it isn't spelled Creme
> >>d'Yvette, whatever it is.
> >
> >It seems to be a trade name for creme de violette or something very similar:
> >
> >http://hotwired.lycos.com/cocktail/archive/links/nc_creme_de_violette.html
> >
> >Possibly it is not produced any more. There are other similar products; e.g.,
> >
> >http://www.benoit-serres.com/pages/right3.html
>
> I should have checked the web, of course.  Thanks for the references;
> the latter one is especially provocative, since it takes us from Yale
> in general to our new president-elect or pretender to the throne
> (depending on your political affiliation) in particular:
>
>                           W
>
>                            7 / 10 Violette
>                            3 / 10 Vodka
>                            Couvrir de crème fraîche
>
> Yes, a W.  Of course, this is a French site, so it's pronounced a
> "double-V" [dubl at ve], where the two V's are the Violette and the
> Vodka.  But it's nice to know we'll have an official drink for the
> new administration, if that's the one we get.  I assume if it's Gore,
> we can invent some variant of the Bloody Mary.
>
> (Was that non-partisan enough for the apoliticos in the group?)
>
> larry, still wondering why it's Creme de Yvette and not Creme d'Yvette


From mlisecki at POLBOX.COM  Tue Nov 14 22:53:03 2000
From: mlisecki at POLBOX.COM (Michal Lisecki)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 23:53:03 +0100
Subject: pronunciation of 'urine'
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.235303.0100.>

How do you pronounce 'urine'? I have looked it up in the
KENNYON/KNOTT's 'Pronouncing dictionary...' and it turned up /'jurin/
but as I was in the US I remember some people in Chicago pronounce it
/'jurain/ with the /ai/ dyphtong.
Some other dictionaries I've tried claim /'jurain/ to be an obsolete
way of pronouncing it. However, I am wondering if it's more an
off-standard rather than just obsolete.
Do any of you say or hear people say /'jurain/?

--
Michal Lisecki <mlisecki AT polbox.com>



--------------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] --------------------
PRZETARGI W INTERNECIE - INTERNET W BIZNESIE dostepny 7/24,
profesjonalny serwis http://www.PrzetargiOnLine.pl
-------------------------------------------------------------


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 14 23:39:08 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:39:08 EST
Subject: Australian kids' slang
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.183908.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From The Australian:


 They're rude, crude and kids

 BY LOUISE MILLIGAN
15nov00

STRANGELY, June Factor has not  heard of Care Factor – an abbreviation of
Care Factor Equals Zero and kidspeak for indifference.

 But the author of Kidspeak, a new dictionary charting Australian children's
language, has heard of bogans, piffing yonnies (throwing  stones), Kiss
Chasey, homies, penis butter, Babe-raham Lincoln, a fair suck of the Siberian
sandshoe and taking a chill pill.

 She knows there are 99 synonyms for cool and that an axe-mark is regrettably
not only an indentation in wood. . . .

http://news.com.au:80/common/story_page/0,4057,1416374%255E421,00.html

- Allan Metcalf


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 15 06:38:42 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 01:38:42 -0500
Subject: Yale drinks
In-Reply-To: <000601c04e82$a2af8220$15a7b2c3@janivars>
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.013842.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Actually, it is "Crème d'Yvette".

Not as far as I can tell. There are various spellings on the Web, most of
them wrong (obviously).

I looked it up in some bartending books. The majority spelling was "creme
Yvette", followed by "creme de Yvette".

I tried to buy it. The specialty liquor stores in my area don't have it,
haven't had it recently, and cannot order it. I phoned the Pennsylvania
Liquor Control Board; they don't list it as one of the products which is
made in or imported into Pennsylvania. They claim that their list includes
all products of Jacquin (apparently headquartered in Pennsylvania) -- and
there's nothing named "Yvette".

No crème de violette, either. One book claimed that Marie Brizard's
"Parfait Amour" liqueur is comparable, but its Web description doesn't
support this.

I went to the big library. I found ONE authoritative listing, in the big
Webster's Third (score another one for the home team): the listing is
"creme yvette" (that's right, no capitals), and the dictionary says it's
from a trademark "Créme Yvette" (that's right, acute accent -- I don't know
whether it's a typographical error).

I was unable to find a picture of the label. Perhaps B. A. Popik can find one.

The US Patent and Trademark Office Web database shows no such registered
trademark, alive or dead. A trademark (TM) need not be registered, of course.

The designation "Yvette" seems to be old: a 1918 cookbook --

http://www.bartleby.com/87/0026.html

-- shows a recipe for violet-flavored ice cream employing "Yvette cordial".

This appears to be an American liqueur: a Web search using French search
engines added nothing.

I guess "creme yvette" (capitalization [and diacritical mark] probably
somewhat optional) seems to be correct. Doesn't matter much, since the
referent apparently is unavailable. I guess our Yale martinis will require
imports from France ... or maybe we can just use a little violet extract
(and perhaps some vanilla extract and sugar to taste) plus some purple food
coloring? One Web entry permits the use of blue curaçao instead of violet
liqueur ... would that be cheating? [I assume the recipe is designed to
present Yale's "blue" color, rather than implying an association of Yale
with violets per se (blushing or otherwise)? Any Yalies, please help me on
this!]

One Swedish Web site permits substitution of "Parfait Amour" (in a "Union
Jack"; Yale drinks may be different):

http://d1o958.telia.com/~u40504408/ginrecept/recept592.htm

(^_^)

Is the OED silent again?

-- Doug Wilson


From tb0exc1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Wed Nov 15 14:26:17 2000
From: tb0exc1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (callary ed)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:26:17 -0600
Subject: pronunciation of 'urine'
In-Reply-To: <200011142353030550.005D5C9B@smtp.polbox.com>
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.082617.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As a Southern given name, Urine is yu REEN and probably originated from
combining the name prefix Eu(r) with the suffix -ine. Many Southern names
are confected in this way.

***********************************************************************
Edward Callary, Editor                 Phone: 815-753-6627
NAMES: A Journal of Onomastics         Fax:   815-753-0606
English Department                     email: ecallary at niu.edu
Northern Illinois University
DeKalb, Il 60115-2863
***********************************************************************

            Visit the American Name Society Homepage:
               http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ans/


From Amcolph at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 15 14:34:06 2000
From: Amcolph at AOL.COM (Ray Ott)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:34:06 EST
Subject: "Ginned up"
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.093406.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The root you want is the OF engin (engine, machine) rather than Geneva (gin,
distilled spirit).  In particular, a "gin" in the sense of an apparatus to
which horses or other draft animals are harnessed and made to walk around in
a circle doing useful work such as milling, grinding, etc., to which the
vernacular "ginned up" relates.

Ray Ott


From janivars at BAHNHOF.SE  Wed Nov 15 17:38:06 2000
From: janivars at BAHNHOF.SE (Jan Ivarsson)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:38:06 +0100
Subject: Yale drinks
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.183806.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Crème Yvette" is possible if it is a brand name, like e.g. "Cherry Heering". 
I found "crème Yvette" in Time-Life Books Foods of the World, Recipes: Wines and Spirits, 1969, but
I found this on the Violet Forum: "The Charles Jacquin company used to make a violet liqueur called Crème d'Yvette but to my dismay stopped making it 25 years ago!"
If the "de" should be there, I insist on "Crème d'Yvette". Any elementary French grammar will tell you that elision of a final -e before vowel always occurs in the monosyllabics "le, je, me, te, se, ce, de, ne, que....". Example: "n'oubliez pas d'y aller".
There may be a subtle pun involved in the name: "Ivette" is an odorous flower, like the "violette", though I do not think that it was actually used for flavoring. But the name sounds familiar and logical to a French-speaking person who knows the Crème de violette very well.
The Liqueur Flavoring Reference Table gives Crème de Yvette as a registered trade mark, though I doubt this a little: on the line before is mentioned "Creme de Voilets" when obviously "Violette" is meant
That Americans often misspell French words and especially tend to either leave the accents out or write e.g. "créme" for "crème" is nothing new, and usually the people writing books on cooking or drinks are not linguists. But I think that when it comes to spelling, it is always preferable to keep as close to the original language as reasonably possible. Otherwise, you may run into things like the Latvian spellings "V. Sekspirs" or "Bernards Sovs", to take a couple of famous writers.
By the way, at least Crème de violette can still be bought in France. And it does not taste like Parfait Amour.
And thanks for the Swedish recipe address!

Jan Ivarsson, Sweden

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: den 15 november 2000 07:38
Subject: Re: Yale drinks


> >Actually, it is "Crème d'Yvette".
> 
> Not as far as I can tell. There are various spellings on the Web, most of
> them wrong (obviously).
> 
> I looked it up in some bartending books. The majority spelling was "creme
> Yvette", followed by "creme de Yvette".
> 
> I tried to buy it. The specialty liquor stores in my area don't have it,
> haven't had it recently, and cannot order it. I phoned the Pennsylvania
> Liquor Control Board; they don't list it as one of the products which is
> made in or imported into Pennsylvania. They claim that their list includes
> all products of Jacquin (apparently headquartered in Pennsylvania) -- and
> there's nothing named "Yvette".
> 
> No crème de violette, either. One book claimed that Marie Brizard's
> "Parfait Amour" liqueur is comparable, but its Web description doesn't
> support this.
> 
> I went to the big library. I found ONE authoritative listing, in the big
> Webster's Third (score another one for the home team): the listing is
> "creme yvette" (that's right, no capitals), and the dictionary says it's
> from a trademark "Créme Yvette" (that's right, acute accent -- I don't know
> whether it's a typographical error).
> 
> I was unable to find a picture of the label. Perhaps B. A. Popik can find one.
> 
> The US Patent and Trademark Office Web database shows no such registered
> trademark, alive or dead. A trademark (TM) need not be registered, of course.
> 
> The designation "Yvette" seems to be old: a 1918 cookbook --
> 
> http://www.bartleby.com/87/0026.html
> 
> -- shows a recipe for violet-flavored ice cream employing "Yvette cordial".
> 
> This appears to be an American liqueur: a Web search using French search
> engines added nothing.
> 
> I guess "creme yvette" (capitalization [and diacritical mark] probably
> somewhat optional) seems to be correct. Doesn't matter much, since the
> referent apparently is unavailable. I guess our Yale martinis will require
> imports from France ... or maybe we can just use a little violet extract
> (and perhaps some vanilla extract and sugar to taste) plus some purple food
> coloring? One Web entry permits the use of blue curaçao instead of violet
> liqueur ... would that be cheating? [I assume the recipe is designed to
> present Yale's "blue" color, rather than implying an association of Yale
> with violets per se (blushing or otherwise)? Any Yalies, please help me on
> this!]
> 
> One Swedish Web site permits substitution of "Parfait Amour" (in a "Union
> Jack"; Yale drinks may be different):
> 
> http://d1o958.telia.com/~u40504408/ginrecept/recept592.htm
> 
> (^_^)
> 
> Is the OED silent again?
> 
> -- Doug Wilson

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From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Wed Nov 15 17:55:52 2000
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:55:52 -0500
Subject: Name that fracas
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.125552.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Slate (www.slate.com) is running a contest to name the ruckus in Florida.

Chad fever?
--
Evan Morris
words1 at word-detective.com
http://www.word-detective.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 15 05:21:05 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:21:05 +0800
Subject: Yale drinks
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001114234942.025edc50@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.132105.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:38 AM -0500 11/15/00, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>I guess "creme yvette" (capitalization [and diacritical mark] probably
>somewhat optional) seems to be correct. Doesn't matter much, since the
>referent apparently is unavailable. I guess our Yale martinis will require
>imports from France ... or maybe we can just use a little violet extract
>(and perhaps some vanilla extract and sugar to taste) plus some purple food
>coloring? One Web entry permits the use of blue curaçao instead of violet
>liqueur ... would that be cheating? [I assume the recipe is designed to
>present Yale's "blue" color, rather than implying an association of Yale
>with violets per se (blushing or otherwise)? Any Yalies, please help me on
>this!]
>
I suspect you're right, and in fact I was wondering why blue curaçao,
which is the only blue liqueur I'd known of before the current
thread, wouldn't have been used.  Only Yvette knows for sure.

Larry


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Wed Nov 15 18:24:35 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:24:35 -0500
Subject: Name that fracas
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.132435.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If it goes on as long as some suggest it might, then I vote for "chad
nauseam." Note that Slate's "best" is "Gator Wait," and they seem quite
pleased with themselves about it (they describe it as "a nice play on words
that takes a second to sink in"). Well maybe it needs to keep sinking, but
it just doesn't work for me. Unless, of course, in Florida "gator" rhymes
with "water."

Paul
http://www.wordspy.com/

> Slate (www.slate.com) is running a contest to name the ruckus in Florida.
>
> Chad fever?
> --
> Evan Morris
> words1 at word-detective.com
> http://www.word-detective.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 15 05:34:31 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:34:31 +0800
Subject: another /ou/-fronter sighted
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.133431.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Next time Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris shows up on
your TV screen, notice that this most powerful official in the world
(at least today) fronts her /o/s, as in her pronunciation of
"vote(s)" (a word which curiously comes up quite often in her
utterances).

larry


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Nov 15 18:38:26 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:38:26 -0500
Subject: Name that fracas
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.133826.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Last night on The Daily Show, they had a segment on the Palm Beach vote that
they called "The Sunshine Wait."

Speaking of The Daily Show, it's interesting that they've been calling the
elections "Indecision 2000" for months. Now several of the networks and print
media are using that title as well in their coverage. Possible WOTY?


Paul McFedries wrote:

> If it goes on as long as some suggest it might, then I vote for "chad
> nauseam." Note that Slate's "best" is "Gator Wait," and they seem quite
> pleased with themselves about it (they describe it as "a nice play on words
> that takes a second to sink in"). Well maybe it needs to keep sinking, but
> it just doesn't work for me. Unless, of course, in Florida "gator" rhymes
> with "water."
>
> Paul
> http://www.wordspy.com/
>
> > Slate (www.slate.com) is running a contest to name the ruckus in Florida.
> >
> > Chad fever?
> > --
> > Evan Morris
> > words1 at word-detective.com
> > http://www.word-detective.com


From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Wed Nov 15 18:51:00 2000
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:51:00 -0500
Subject: Name that fracas
In-Reply-To: <3A12D823.501119A5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.135100.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:38 PM 11/15/00, Gareth Branwyn wrote:

>Last night on The Daily Show, they had a segment on the Palm Beach vote that
>they called "The Sunshine Wait."
>
>Speaking of The Daily Show, it's interesting that they've been calling the
>elections "Indecision 2000" for months. Now several of the networks and print
>media are using that title as well in their coverage. Possible WOTY?


I understand that Jon Stewart said something along the lines of "We never
meant for you guys to take it so seriously."
--
Evan Morris
words1 at word-detective.com
http://www.word-detective.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 15 05:55:58 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:55:58 +0800
Subject: Name that fracas
In-Reply-To: <028201c04f31$4edd6d60$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.135558.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>If it goes on as long as some suggest it might, then I vote for "chad
>nauseam." Note that Slate's "best" is "Gator Wait," and they seem quite
>pleased with themselves about it (they describe it as "a nice play on words
>that takes a second to sink in"). Well maybe it needs to keep sinking, but
it just doesn't work for me.

I first took this to be a spooneresque pun on Waiter-gate, in the
sense that we're all waiting and there is a semi-scandal involved,
but then (after a manual recount) I determined that it's intended as
a pun on "gator-bait".    I think.

L


From AWMPerry at CS.COM  Wed Nov 15 19:03:22 2000
From: AWMPerry at CS.COM (Andrew Perry)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 14:03:22 EST
Subject: Yale drinks
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.140322.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Grammatically speaking, Creme De Yvette is incorrect. French grammar demands
that the e be replaced by an apostrophe and the space removed. Thus the
correct form would be either Creme Yvette (as you said) or Creme d'Yvette (as
he said).

  Andrew


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Wed Nov 15 20:55:01 2000
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:55:01 -0500
Subject: Name that fracas
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.155501.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's Gatorade, the he-man drink... :-)

Laurence Horn wrote:

> >If it goes on as long as some suggest it might, then I vote for "chad
> >nauseam." Note that Slate's "best" is "Gator Wait," and they seem quite
> >pleased with themselves about it (they describe it as "a nice play on words
> >that takes a second to sink in"). Well maybe it needs to keep sinking, but
> it just doesn't work for me.
>
> I first took this to be a spooneresque pun on Waiter-gate, in the
> sense that we're all waiting and there is a semi-scandal involved,
> but then (after a manual recount) I determined that it's intended as
> a pun on "gator-bait".    I think.
>
> L

__________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl                 einstein at frognet.net     tel: (740) 592-1617
          home page:  http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 15 08:40:00 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:40:00 +0800
Subject: Name that fracas
In-Reply-To: <3A12F825.3441756@frognet.net>
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.164000.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:55 PM -0500 11/15/00, David Bergdahl wrote:
>It's Gatorade, the he-man drink... :-)

Ah, I should have known it would require another recount.  I'm sure
you're right, but I have to say that by this point, I think (much as
I dislike the beverage) Gatorade is too good for 'em.  Now,
gator-bait...

>Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>>  >If it goes on as long as some suggest it might, then I vote for "chad
>>  >nauseam." Note that Slate's "best" is "Gator Wait," and they seem quite
>>  >pleased with themselves about it (they describe it as "a nice play on words
>>  >that takes a second to sink in"). Well maybe it needs to keep sinking, but
>>  it just doesn't work for me.
>>
>>  I first took this to be a spooneresque pun on Waiter-gate, in the
>>  sense that we're all waiting and there is a semi-scandal involved,
>>  but then (after a manual recount) I determined that it's intended as
>>  a pun on "gator-bait".    I think.
>>
>>  L
>
>__________________________________________________________
>David Bergdahl                 einstein at frognet.net     tel: (740) 592-1617
>           home page:  http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 16 02:38:13 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:38:13 EST
Subject: "OK" sign in the food industry
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.213813.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    This continues discussion of the "OK" sign.

January 1955, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 48, col. 1.  The familiar
winking chef doing the "OK" sign is shown.  The page features recipes.

March 1955, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 2.  This is an ad for LE GOUT,
FEARN FOODS.  Fearn Foods Inc. was based in Franklin Park, Illinois.  A
winking chef doing the "OK" sign is on the label of the product (chicken base
for soups and seasonings).  The chef is shown three times in this ad.  The LE
GOUT ads ran each issue and probably date much earlier than this.

July 1955, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 118, col. 1.  The winking chef
doing the "OK" sign is in an ad for a restaurant range.  "More Chefs Prefer
VULCAN-HART."

September 1956, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 89.  This is an ad for
Downyflake baking mixes.  A very cheesecake Katherine Harris-type waitress
hold a dish of cake in one hand and makes the "OK" sign with the other.
"NEW!  Downyflake adds the finishing touch of GLAMOR to CAKE."  This is the
earliest I've seen a woman give the sign (outside of the Ballantine ads)...I
don't know if Katherine Harris has these legs, though.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 16 02:56:51 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:56:51 EST
Subject: Sloppy Joe & burgers
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.215651.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     These entries are from AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE.  I copied the index
page of recipes, not the recipes.  About forty years of AMERICAN RESTAURANT
are all in the annex, so if you want the recipe/full entry, it'll be a few
days.

February 1954, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 83:
Fishburgers...88

September 1954, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 59--_Pizza Burger--New Idea
in Sandwiches_.

November 1954, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 26, col. 1:
GRILLED STEAKWICH...
CALIFORNIA HAMBURGER...
(Col. 2--ed.)
CHICKEN SALAD SANDWICH (3-decker)...
DAGWOOD BUMSTEAD HAMBURGER...
CHEESE-BACON-TOMATO SANDWICH

April 1955, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 81:
Crabmeat Burger...126
Tuna Burger...126
Egg Burger...126
Nut Burger...126

August 1955, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 61:
Cheesy Beanburgers...62
Sloppy Joes...64.  (OED has 1961 for the sandwich--ed.)

August 1955, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 25, col. 2:
TOASTED WESTERN SANDWICH (OED has a later cite--ed.)
PEANUT BUTTER & JELLY SANDWICH

August 1956, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 71:
Souper Burger...71
Brunschweiburgers...72
Chickenburgers..72
Bacon Cheeseburger..77


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 16 03:10:23 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:10:23 EST
Subject: Cuban Sandwich
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.221023.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    "Cuban Sandwich" is in DARE.  See previous ADS-L postings.  This article
specifically addresses the Tampa restaurant.
    From AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, August 1955, pg. 54, col. 1:

_Special Demand for Sandwich Specialty_
100 to 250
Sold at noon by
Tampa, Fla., restaurant,
A southern "Dagwood",
it includes
boiled ham,
roast pork,
salami,
swiss cheese,
sour pickles and
mustard or mayonnaise
in 7-inch loaf
of Spanish Bread.
    (Pg. 55, col. 1--ed.)
    CUBAN sandwiches, a kind of southern "Dagwood," are one of the best
"short order" lunches in Tampa, Florida.  They are a specialty of Tampa's
well known Las Novedades Spanish Restaurant and as many as 100 are served at
noontime daily, with up to 250 of them merchandised on Saturdays.
    It is made up of a combination of boiled ham, roast pork, salami, Swiss
cheese, sour pickles and mustard or mayonnaise, plus Spanish bread.
    To prepare them, the chef first splits a hefty seven-inch slice of
Spanish bread.  On half the bread goes a base of boiled ham, covered with
roast pork slices; next, two salami halves; then strips of natural Swiss
cheese; a couple of slices of sour pickle, and a coating of mayonnaise or
mustard to complete the item.
    Dozens of Cuban sandwiches are made up in advance for noontime trade to
meet daily demand for them.
    (...)
    Las Novedades, first established in 1890, is operated by five partners
who have directed the restaurant since 1939...


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Thu Nov 16 03:34:19 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:34:19 -0700
Subject: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.203419.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This just in:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

> What was that about being a laughing stock?
>
>
> NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
>
> To the citizens of the United States of America,
>
> In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA and thus to
> govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your
> independence, effective today.
>
> Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchial duties
over
> all states, commonwealths and other territories.  Except Utah, which she
> does not fancy.  Your new prime minister (The rt. hon. Tony Blair, MP, for
> the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that there is a world
> outside your borders) will appoint a minister for America without the need
> for further elections.  Congress and the Senate will be disbanded.  A
> questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of you
> noticed.
>
> To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following
Rules
> are introduced with immediate effect:
>
> 1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Then
> look up "aluminium".  Check the pronunciation guide.  You will be amazed
at
> just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it.  Generally, you should
raise
> your vocabulary to acceptable levels.  Look up "vocabulary". Using the
same
> twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you
> know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication.  Look up
> "interspersed".
>
> 2. There is no such thing as "US English".  We will let Microsoft know on
> your behalf.
>
> 3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents. It
> really isn't that hard.
>
> 4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the
> good guys.
>
> 5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen",
> but only after fully carrying out task 1.  We would not want you to get
> confused and give up half way through.
>
>  6. You should stop playing American "football".  There is only one kind
of
> football.  What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good
> game.  The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your
> borders may have noticed that no one else plays "American" football.  You
> will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper
> football.  Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls.  It
is
> a difficult game.  Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to
> play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not involve
> stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body
armour
> like nancies).  We are hoping to get together at least a US rugby sevens
> side by 2005.
>
> 7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using nuclear weapons if
> they give you any merde.  The 98.85% of you who were not aware that there
> is a world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky. The
Russians
> have never been the bad guys.
>
> 8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday.  November 7th will be a new
> national holiday, but only in England.  It will be called "Indecisive
Day".
>
> 9. All American cars are hereby banned.  They are crap and it is for your
> own good.  When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean.
>
> 10. Please tell us who killed JFK.  It's been driving us crazy.
>
> Thank you for your cooperation.
>
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 16 03:41:11 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:41:11 EST
Subject: Reuben; MSG; Salad Bar; Coffee Break; Doggie bag
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.224111.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

REUBEN (or RUEBEN)

     From AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, Septmeber 1956, pg. 105, col. 2:

_National Sandwich Winners_
     THE RUEBEN, a hearty man-sized sandwich of corned beef, sauerkraut and
Swiss cheese on Russian rye bread, is the nation's top hotel and restaurant
sandwich in the opinion of judges of the National Sandwich Idea COntest in
which more than 600 different sandwich items are entered from all parts of
the country and Hawaii.  The Rueben was submitted by Fern Snider, chef at the
Rose Bowl Restaurant in Omaha, Nebr.
     (...)(Delmonico Steak Sandwich was second.  Curried Cheese and Olive
Broiler Sandwich was third--ed.)
     Winners were announced at a luncheon given by Standard Brands, Inc., in
New York City, with final winners selected by a panel of five food editors of
national consumer publications.

(This antedates OED by a month.  The recipe for "RUEBEN" is in column one.
It will be interesting to find a NYC newspaper's take on the name Reuben--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
MSG

     I don't know what Jesse has in the OED revised files.
     The following ad is from AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, August 1955, pg.
2:

Try _MSG_ and discover "The Secret of Good Taste"
MSG
99+% Pure Mono Sodium Glutamate
Crystals
   A Product of AMERICAN AGRICULTURE
   Available in
   10 lb. handsome canisters
   1 lb. functional shaker-top cans
   THE GREAT WESTERN SUGAR COMPANY
   Denver, Colorado

--------------------------------------------------------
SALAD BAR (continued)

     From AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, September 1954, pg. 58, col. 1:

_Customers Like to Make Salads_
     WITH a Salad Bar where guests may make up their own salad from a wide
choice of ingredients, and a fruit bar where breakfast guests may make a
selection of fresh fruits for their morning meal, Neiman's Good Food in
Gatlinburg, Tenn., has built a wide reputation for unusal food service.
     Always on the lookout for new ideas, Mr. and Mrs. Jack Neiman, operators
of the restaurant, discovered the salad bar idea while vacationing in Hawaii
some years ago and adapted it to their operation.
     (...)(Col. 3--ed.)
     Started 17 years ago, Neiman's has served over three-quarters of a
million guests.
     The restaurant was established in 1938 as a small dining room and
counter service operation with less than 20 seats.

(A pg. 59 photo shows:
NEIMAN'S
GOOD FOOD
HOME OF THE SALAD BAR)

--------------------------------------------------------
COFFEE BREAK (continued)

     From AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, September 1955, pg. 145:

"The 'Coffee-break'
stops customers for our
highway restaurant!"
(...)
     Promote the "Coffee-break"--to promote your own profits.
PAN-AMERICAN COFFEE BURUEAU, 120 WALL STREET, NEW YORK 5 N. Y.

(Did this organization start it?--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
DOGGIE BAG

     OED has 1964 for "doggie bag."
     This story (which re-prints a postcard mailer) is about the steaks at
Leonard's La Pena Restaurant in Miami, Florida.  From AMERICAN RESTAURANT
MAGAZINE, April 1954, pg. 84, col. 2:

_Bones for the Dog_
     "Finale.  If you have a pooch at home, the Leonards invite you to take
home a box of sirloin bones to pamper the palate of your favorite pup."

--------------------------------------------------------
SMOOTHY (continued)

    I've been copying G. Selmer Fougner's ALONG THE WINE TRAIL (NYPL
microfilm, 1935-1938?), a collection of his columns from the NEW YORK SUN.
This is from Part IV, pg. 87:

     _Smoothy_
    Lemon peel, one-half teaspoonful of sugar, jigger of gin, dash of
curacao, a few drops of cream, ice well and shake.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 16 03:58:58 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:58:58 EST
Subject: Wall Street jargon
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.225858.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     I did a lot of these over two years ago.
     From yesterday's WALL STREET JOURNAL, 14 November 2000, pg. C1, col. 2:

It's a dead-cat bounce...
The market is in a narrow trading range...
Bonds retreated on bearish comments from the Fed...
We're near-term cautious but long-term optimistic...
The stock market was own on technical factors...
The market fell on heavy selling by mutual funds...
The trend is your friend: Stocks have been going up...
Trees don't grow to the sky: Stocks stopped going up...
The market is looking a little extended...
Don't miss this compelling opportunity...
The market climbs a wall of worry...
It isn't a loss until you sell it...
Focus on total return...
It's cheap on a relative basis...
(Col. 3--ed.)
It's fairly valued...
We've got some great values in our portfolio...
We buy growth at a reasonable price...
We're long-term investors...
We think the stock is a potential buyout candidate...
The stock's oversold...
Nobody ever went broke taking profits...
The company's quarterly earnings beat expectations...
We've researched this company thoroughyl...
We're fundamental investors...
We're technical investors...
We buy companies, not pieces of paper...
Our strength is evaluating corporate management...
The company has solid fundamentals...
It's a New Economy stock: Don't even bother asking about earnings.
We rate the stock a strong buy...
We consider the stock attractive long-term...
We rate the stock a hold...
We rate it a sell...

--------------------------------------------------------
THISCLOSE--used by NEW YORKER.
DARNCLOSE--used by NEW YORK OBSERVER.


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Thu Nov 16 04:19:17 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:19:17 -0600
Subject: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.221917.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

Do we give Texas back to Mexico?  I am in Illinois.  I guess that makes me
French.  Or better yet, Mesquaqui (sp?).  They were here ahead of the
French.

----- Original Message -----
From: Rudolph C Troike <rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:34 PM
Subject: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE


> This just in:
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > What was that about being a laughing stock?
> >
> >
> > NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
> >
> > To the citizens of the United States of America,
> >
> > In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA and thus to
> > govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your
> > independence, effective today.
> >
> > Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchial duties
> over
> > all states, commonwealths and other territories.  Except Utah, which she
> > does not fancy.  Your new prime minister (The rt. hon. Tony Blair, MP,
for
> > the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that there is a world
> > outside your borders) will appoint a minister for America without the
need
> > for further elections.  Congress and the Senate will be disbanded.  A
> > questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of
you
> > noticed.
> >
> > To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following
> Rules
> > are introduced with immediate effect:
> >
> > 1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary.
Then
> > look up "aluminium".  Check the pronunciation guide.  You will be amazed
> at
> > just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it.  Generally, you should
> raise
> > your vocabulary to acceptable levels.  Look up "vocabulary". Using the
> same
> > twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and
"you
> > know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication.  Look up
> > "interspersed".
> >
> > 2. There is no such thing as "US English".  We will let Microsoft know
on
> > your behalf.
> >
> > 3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents.
It
> > really isn't that hard.
> >
> > 4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the
> > good guys.
> >
> > 5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The
Queen",
> > but only after fully carrying out task 1.  We would not want you to get
> > confused and give up half way through.
> >
> >  6. You should stop playing American "football".  There is only one kind
> of
> > football.  What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good
> > game.  The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your
> > borders may have noticed that no one else plays "American" football.
You
> > will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper
> > football.  Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls.  It
> is
> > a difficult game.  Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed
to
> > play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not
involve
> > stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body
> armour
> > like nancies).  We are hoping to get together at least a US rugby sevens
> > side by 2005.
> >
> > 7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using nuclear weapons if
> > they give you any merde.  The 98.85% of you who were not aware that
there
> > is a world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky. The
> Russians
> > have never been the bad guys.
> >
> > 8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday.  November 7th will be a new
> > national holiday, but only in England.  It will be called "Indecisive
> Day".
> >
> > 9. All American cars are hereby banned.  They are crap and it is for
your
> > own good.  When we show you German cars, you will understand what we
mean.
> >
> > 10. Please tell us who killed JFK.  It's been driving us crazy.
> >
> > Thank you for your cooperation.
> >
> >


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Thu Nov 16 05:00:55 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:00:55 -0800
Subject: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
In-Reply-To: <002e01c04f85$cda8a480$05060640@wiu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.210055.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For those of us in the PNW (formerly, but rightly, "Oregon Territory")--I
guess that pretty much puts the kibosh on "54.40 or Fight" ...

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Tim Frazer wrote:

> Do we give Texas back to Mexico?  I am in Illinois.  I guess that makes me
> French.  Or better yet, Mesquaqui (sp?).  They were here ahead of the
> French.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rudolph C Troike <rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:34 PM
> Subject: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
>
>
> > This just in:
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > What was that about being a laughing stock?
> > >
> > >
> > > NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
> > >
> > > To the citizens of the United States of America,
> > >
> > > In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA and thus to
> > > govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your
> > > independence, effective today.
> > >
> > > Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchial duties
> > over
> > > all states, commonwealths and other territories.  Except Utah, which she
> > > does not fancy.  Your new prime minister (The rt. hon. Tony Blair, MP,
> for
> > > the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that there is a world
> > > outside your borders) will appoint a minister for America without the
> need
> > > for further elections.  Congress and the Senate will be disbanded.  A
> > > questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of
> you
> > > noticed.
> > >
> > > To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following
> > Rules
> > > are introduced with immediate effect:
> > >
> > > 1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary.
> Then
> > > look up "aluminium".  Check the pronunciation guide.  You will be amazed
> > at
> > > just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it.  Generally, you should
> > raise
> > > your vocabulary to acceptable levels.  Look up "vocabulary". Using the
> > same
> > > twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and
> "you
> > > know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication.  Look up
> > > "interspersed".
> > >
> > > 2. There is no such thing as "US English".  We will let Microsoft know
> on
> > > your behalf.
> > >
> > > 3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents.
> It
> > > really isn't that hard.
> > >
> > > 4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the
> > > good guys.
> > >
> > > 5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The
> Queen",
> > > but only after fully carrying out task 1.  We would not want you to get
> > > confused and give up half way through.
> > >
> > >  6. You should stop playing American "football".  There is only one kind
> > of
> > > football.  What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good
> > > game.  The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your
> > > borders may have noticed that no one else plays "American" football.
> You
> > > will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper
> > > football.  Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls.  It
> > is
> > > a difficult game.  Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed
> to
> > > play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not
> involve
> > > stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body
> > armour
> > > like nancies).  We are hoping to get together at least a US rugby sevens
> > > side by 2005.
> > >
> > > 7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using nuclear weapons if
> > > they give you any merde.  The 98.85% of you who were not aware that
> there
> > > is a world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky. The
> > Russians
> > > have never been the bad guys.
> > >
> > > 8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday.  November 7th will be a new
> > > national holiday, but only in England.  It will be called "Indecisive
> > Day".
> > >
> > > 9. All American cars are hereby banned.  They are crap and it is for
> your
> > > own good.  When we show you German cars, you will understand what we
> mean.
> > >
> > > 10. Please tell us who killed JFK.  It's been driving us crazy.
> > >
> > > Thank you for your cooperation.
> > >
> > >
>


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Thu Nov 16 08:22:11 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:22:11 -0800
Subject: Technology terms acquiring non-technical meanings
In-Reply-To: <02c101c04e45$730e4980$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.002211.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>...If you have examples that I can add to my list, I'd be happy to hear them.

What about terms that started out non-technically and became
specialized?  I'm thinking of things like perseverance.  The normal
"p at rs@'vir at ns vs. the psychological p at r'sev at r@ns - meaning a specific
repetitiveness.

Rima


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Thu Nov 16 08:39:30 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:39:30 -0700
Subject: FW: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE (fwd)
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.013930.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:08:44 -0700
From: ctb <ctb at U.ARIZONA.EDU>
To: ENGLISH at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: FW: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE (fwd)

Rudy--

That "Revocation of Independence" argument seems entirely reasonable to
me except for the matter of the pronunciation and spelling of Brit
"aluminium" vs. correct Yank "aluminum."  I just couldn't live with
that.  This alloy was discovered, ca. 1805, by the Brit chemist Sir
Humphry Davy (1778-1829), who named it and pronounced it "aluminum" on
the basis of what he knew about alum and also on the basis of recent
French ("alumine") and German ("Aluminit") chemical discoveries.  Davy's
Brit colleagues, with some little knowledge of Latin, wrongly assumed
that he had surely meant to call the alloy "aluminium" on the basis of
false analogy with sodium and other such elements or minerals that they
were aware of, and they soon contamined the usage of this word in
England though not in America in the time of Noah Webster and the War of
1812.  In this instance it is the Yanks, with their felix-culpa
ignorance of Latin, who have preserved the historically correct usage.
The same goes, of course, for quite a few other Brit-Yank divergences.
Two examples that always come to mind first are the pronunciations of
"lieutenant" and "schedule."  Never mind all those other words from
Gallic and Hellenic populations on whom we Anglophones--both Brits and
Yanks in one measure or another--have long ago declared linguistic if
not nuclear war.

c


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Nov 16 15:46:06 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 07:46:06 -0800
Subject: "Ginned up"
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.074606.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Most of us are introduced to Eli Whitney and his
cotton gin in elementary school.  The name "cotton
gin" puzzled me because the only "gin" I knew of was
the drink.  I finally connected "gin" with "engine"
after several years.


--- Ray Ott <Amcolph at AOL.COM> wrote:
> The root you want is the OF engin (engine, machine)
> rather than Geneva (gin,
> distilled spirit).  In particular, a "gin" in the
> sense of an apparatus to
> which horses or other draft animals are harnessed
> and made to walk around in
> a circle doing useful work such as milling,
> grinding, etc., to which the
> vernacular "ginned up" relates.
>
> Ray Ott


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 16 03:32:16 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:32:16 +0800
Subject: "Ginned up"
In-Reply-To: <20001116154606.40445.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.113216.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Most of us are introduced to Eli Whitney and his
>cotton gin in elementary school.  The name "cotton
>gin" puzzled me because the only "gin" I knew of was
>the drink.  I finally connected "gin" with "engine"
>after several years.
>
Yes, but here in New Haven our kids learn about Eli Whitney and *his*
gin very early on, even before wondering how it relates to what their
parents drink in the summer.

--Larry, who lives in Whitneyville (section of Hamden) and drives
past the Eli Whitney 1816 Barn and the Eli Whitney Museum on his way
to work.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 16 18:09:03 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 13:09:03 EST
Subject: Big Biology; Cyberdildonics; Pizza slang
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.130903.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BIG BIOLOGY

   "The dawn of big biology" was in the FINANCIAL TIMES, Biotechnology
section, 15 November 2000, pg. 4, col. 1.  From col. 3:

   Systems biology heralds the dawn of "big biology".  Just as "big physics"
evolved to accommodate a massive expansion of research data and
computer-intensive problems, biology and medicine are poised for the same
transition.

   From the FINANCIAL TIMES, Telecoms section, 15 November 2000, pg. 6, col.
6, is a "Layman's Guide"--a "Glossary of useful terms" in optical networking:

Absorption...
Amplifier...
Attentuation...
Cross-connect...
Dsipersion...
DWDM (Dense Wavelength Division Multiplexing)...
Modulator...
Multiplexer...
OC 192...
Passive Components...

   The FINANCIAL TIMES, Telecoms section, 15 November 2000, pg. 15, col. 1
has the acronyms CRM (customer relationship management) and CTI (computer
telephone integration).
   The same FINANCIAL TIMES, Telecoms section, 15 November 2000, pg. 24, has
an ad for Global one (www.globalone.com):

   Global IP VPN
   e-business collaboration phone for Intranet ERP...
(...)  ...Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS)...

(SOMEBODY STOP THESE CRAZY ACRONYMS!!--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
CYBERDILDONICS; PIZZA SLANG

   YAHOO! INTERNET LIFE, December 2000, pg. 82, col. 2, has "slice of slang"
taken from MALEDICTA, reprinted in
augustachronicle.com/headlines/101696/pizza.html#1.  A "Republican pizza" is
a "GOP"--green peppers, onions, pepperoni.
   "Cyberdildonics" is on pg. 140, col. 2.  The internet can help you move
your partner's sex toys.  Oh joy.


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov 16 18:25:59 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:25:59 +0100
Subject: Ginned up
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.192559.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

On jeudi 16 novembre 2000 16:46, James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>Most of us are introduced to Eli Whitney and his
>cotton gin in elementary school.  The name "cotton
>gin" puzzled me because the only "gin" I knew of was
>the drink.  I finally connected "gin" with "engine"
>after several years.

I always thought it was somehow connected to the spinning jenny (jinny? ginny?
genny?) which in turn was related name-wise to a ginny mule which might have powered the
thing or its predecessor. But that's all old memories and half-thoughts so I dunno.


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Thu Nov 16 18:55:01 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 13:55:01 -0500
Subject: Today's Definition
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.135501.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I saw an interesting bumper sticker/definition today:

    GUN CONTROL
    means using
    BOTH HANDS

Commandeering language is an interesting strategy.  Is there a linguistic
term for such a practice?

bob


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Nov 16 19:08:24 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:08:24 -0500
Subject: Cyberdildonics
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.140824.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The term "teledildonics," for the same notion of teleoperated sex, has been
around since the big VR boom of the early '90s. Coined by Howard Rheingold (if I
remember correctly), or at least championed by him.

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> BIG BIOLOGY
>
>    "The dawn of big biology" was in the FINANCIAL TIMES, Biotechnology
> section, 15 November 2000, pg. 4, col. 1.  From col. 3:
>
>    Systems biology heralds the dawn of "big biology".  Just as "big physics"
> evolved to accommodate a massive expansion of research data and
> computer-intensive problems, biology and medicine are poised for the same
> transition.
>
>    From the FINANCIAL TIMES, Telecoms section, 15 November 2000, pg. 6, col.
> 6, is a "Layman's Guide"--a "Glossary of useful terms" in optical networking:
>
> Absorption...
> Amplifier...
> Attentuation...
> Cross-connect...
> Dsipersion...
> DWDM (Dense Wavelength Division Multiplexing)...
> Modulator...
> Multiplexer...
> OC 192...
> Passive Components...
>
>    The FINANCIAL TIMES, Telecoms section, 15 November 2000, pg. 15, col. 1
> has the acronyms CRM (customer relationship management) and CTI (computer
> telephone integration).
>    The same FINANCIAL TIMES, Telecoms section, 15 November 2000, pg. 24, has
> an ad for Global one (www.globalone.com):
>
>    Global IP VPN
>    e-business collaboration phone for Intranet ERP...
> (...)  ...Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS)...
>
> (SOMEBODY STOP THESE CRAZY ACRONYMS!!--ed.)
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> CYBERDILDONICS; PIZZA SLANG
>
>    YAHOO! INTERNET LIFE, December 2000, pg. 82, col. 2, has "slice of slang"
> taken from MALEDICTA, reprinted in
> augustachronicle.com/headlines/101696/pizza.html#1.  A "Republican pizza" is
> a "GOP"--green peppers, onions, pepperoni.
>    "Cyberdildonics" is on pg. 140, col. 2.  The internet can help you move
> your partner's sex toys.  Oh joy.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 16 06:10:08 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:10:08 +0800
Subject: Ginned up
In-Reply-To: <909763699gbarrett@monickels.com>
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.141008.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:25 PM +0100 11/16/00, Grant Barrett wrote:
>On jeudi 16 novembre 2000 16:46, James Smith
><jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>>Most of us are introduced to Eli Whitney and his
>>cotton gin in elementary school.  The name "cotton
>>gin" puzzled me because the only "gin" I knew of was
>>the drink.  I finally connected "gin" with "engine"
>>after several years.
>
>I always thought it was somehow connected to the spinning jenny (jinny? ginny?
>genny?) which in turn was related name-wise to a ginny mule which
>might have powered the
>thing or its predecessor. But that's all old memories and
>half-thoughts so I dunno.

The OED has a whole bunch of "gin"s, all representing an aphetic form
of "engine" or of the Old French "engin"; many senses relate to
machines, devices, or contrivances of various sorts, including the
cotton gin.  The "jenny" of "spinning jenny" is not taken to be
related to "gin", but to derive directly from the girl's name,
although "the reason for this use of the personal name is uncertain".
If your scoring at home, the spinning jenny was patented by
Hargreaves in 1770, the cotton gin in 1796.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 16 06:24:20 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:24:20 +0800
Subject: Ginned up
In-Reply-To: <p0432040eb6392aadf48d@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.142420.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:10 PM +0800 11/16/00, Laurence Horn wrote:
>If your scoring at home, the spinning jenny was patented by
>Hargreaves in 1770, the cotton gin in 1796.
>
Arggh.  Due to a glitch in my keyboard, which is in rhoticity
recovery, an apostrophe before an R and an E after it mysteriously
cancel each other out.  Must be this damn chadless punch.

larry


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 16 20:27:54 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:27:54 CST
Subject: Cyberdildonics
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.142754.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>The term "teledildonics," for the same notion of teleoperated sex, has been
>around since the big VR boom of the early '90s. Coined by Howard Rheingold
>(if I remember correctly), or at least championed by him.

And what of Aldous Huxley's 'feelies'?

Mark.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Thu Nov 16 20:36:32 2000
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:36:32 -0500
Subject: chad
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.153632.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Deja.com indexes more than 18,000 hits for "chad"--the funniest of which
a song to the tune of Monty Python's "Every Sperm is Sacred."

-- text file attached
___________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl                 einstein at frognet.net     tel: (740)
592-1617
          home page:  http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl

-------------- next part --------------
with just...general apologies

There are Greens in the world, there are Socialists,
there are kooks, libertarians and then
there are those that lean to the Right Wing  -but-
I've never been one of them.
I am a Liberal Democrat
and have been since before I was born,
and the one thing they say about a Democrats is
they'll take you as soon as you're warm.
You don't have to be an idealist.
It's okay if you're out to lunch.
You just need some enlightened self-interest, you're
a Demo the moment you punch
...that card...
Every chad is sacred,
every chad is great,
If a chad is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
Pass one to your neighbor,
hold it to the light,
Now just tap that bit there,
It's a hanging chad, alright.
Let Ms. Harris spill them,
on the dusty ground.
GOD shall make her pay for
each pregnant chad that can't be found.
Every chad is wanted,
every chad is good.
Every chad is needed,
in your neighborhood.
Aged senile Crackers,
spill theirs just anywhere
but God loves those who treat their
ballots with more care.
Every chad is sacred,
every chad is great,
If a chad is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
Pass one to your neighbor,
bend it round just right,
Now just tap that bit there,
Oops - the camaras!  KILL THE LIGHT!
Every chad is useful,
every chad is fine.
God needs everybodies,
mine, and mine, and mine.
Let Ralph Nader squander
what's destined for Al's gain.
God shall strike him down for
each chad that's spilled in vain.
Every chad is sacred,
every chad is good,
every chad is needed,
in your neighborhood,
Every chad is sacred,
every chad is great,
If a chad is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

LisaB

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 17 04:29:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 23:29:15 EST
Subject: Chad; Ask a stupid question...
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.232915.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CHAD

    Chad.  It's a country in Africa.
    OK, I know, everybody's gotta know "chad."  I went through EVERY SINGLE
EXTREMELY BORING BOOK ON PUNCH CARDS in the NYPL today, and I didn't see
"chad."
    OED has one 1959 citation and has "origin unknown."
    A SIMPLIFIED GUIDE TO AUTOMATIC DATA PROCESSING by William A. Bocchino
(Prentice-Hall, Inc., Englewood Cliffs, NJ, first edition 1966, second
edition 1972) has a nice "glossary of ADP terms."  From page 64:

_Chad_:  A small piece of paper tape or punch card removed when punching a
hole to represent information.

--------------------------------------------------------
ASK A STUPID QUESTION, GET A STUPID ANSWER

   I probably antedated ADP and other terms, but I don't have time for that
now.  The journal MANAGEMENT AND BUSINESS AUTOMATION began in 1959, but I
didn't see "chad."  A nice cartoon is in April 1959, pg. 27, col. 1.  A woman
tells her boss the results from the computer:

   "Well, ask a silly question, you get a silly answer."


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Nov 17 05:23:37 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 00:23:37 -0500
Subject: Yale drinks
In-Reply-To: <002001c04f2a$d56ec100$0ea6b2c3@janivars>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.002337.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"Crème Yvette" is possible if it is a brand name, like e.g. "Cherry Heering".

I can't resist putting forth my own jejune opinions; please understand that
my ignorance of French is profound.

I think a proper noun can be whatever the namer/owner assigns: some proper
names are probably intended to "look French" without being French -- e.g.,
"L'Eggs" brand stockings -- while others may not be reasonable in any
common language -- e.g., "Exxon". If I name my house "Chateau de If" then
that is its name. Is it bad English? Bad French? Bad Spanish? No, it's just
my name for my house.

>... on the Violet Forum: "The Charles Jacquin company used to make a
>violet liqueur called Crème d'Yvette but to my dismay stopped making it 25
>years ago!"
>If the "de" should be there, I insist on "Crème d'Yvette". Any elementary
>French grammar will tell you that elision of a final -e before vowel
>always occurs in the monosyllabics "le, je, me, te, se, ce, de, ne,
>que....". Example: "n'oubliez pas d'y aller".

In this case, I think it's probably "Crème Yvette" as a trade name, "creme
yvette" as a common noun IN ENGLISH -- selon Webster's Third. [This is an
Anglophone designation for an American product, and it need not satisfy the
Académie in any case.]

But ... when I looked (unsuccessfully) for the product at the liquor store,
I found Jacquin "Creme de Strawberry", "Creme de Menthe", etc., etc., and
"Creme de Almond": what about this last one (I think it once was "Creme de
Noyaux" BTW)? I'd say if the Jacquin company chooses this name for its
product, then that's the name (although I -- like Jan Ivarsson, I suppose
-- don't like it much).

[I think at least some French authorities will accept retention of "de"
before vowel in certain restricted environments -- e.g., before an isolated
letter ("de A à Z", "en forme de S") or before quotes ("l'étymologie de
<<ivette>>") (although elision may be OK also). On the Francophone Web
there are many other -- perhaps simply erroneous -- cases: for example
"époux de Yvette" outnumbers "époux d'Yvette" in my search of
French-language sites. What about "Coordonées de Auto-Transports S.A."
(apparently Swiss)?]

>There may be a subtle pun involved in the name: "Ivette" is an odorous
>flower, like the "violette", though I do not think that it was actually
>used for flavoring. But the name sounds familiar and logical to a
>French-speaking person who knows the Crème de violette very well.

Good point! (It was too subtle for me.) Apparently "ivette" = English "iva"
or "ground-pine"?

>... when it comes to spelling, it is always preferable to keep as close to
>the original language as reasonably possible.

But what is the original language in "creme Yvette" or "creme de almond"?
Apparently "creme" has existed as an English word for > 150 years. AFAIK,
both of these expressions originated in the US.

I agree that "d'Yvette" is preferable to "de Yvette" in this context. But
what about "d'almond"? (^_^)

-- Doug Wilson


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Fri Nov 17 14:33:00 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:33:00 +0100
Subject: Racial Slur Database
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.153300.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

Not professional and incomplete, but maybe worth a look.

http://www.phix.com/~ryan/rsdb/


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Nov 17 17:10:35 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:10:35 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: pronunciation of 'urine']
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.121035.0500.>

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From: Thomas Paikeday <t.paikeday at sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: pronunciation of 'urine'
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:05:10 -0500
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From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Nov 17 17:35:02 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:35:02 +0000
Subject: Racial Slur Database
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.173502.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: Grant Barrett <gbarrett at monickels.com>
>  >Not professional and incomplete, but maybe worth a look.
>  >
>  >http://www.phix.com/~ryan/rsdb/
>
>
>I find the title/slogan of this webpage interesting:
>
>The Racial Slur Database
>Making the world a better place
>
>Not sure I get the intended meaning here!


>Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Nov 17 19:50:26 2000
From: mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko Mufwene)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:50:26 -0800
Subject: COME vs GO
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.115026.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This list has become unusually quiet... perhaps our minds are already into
Thanksgiving next week. Well, some of you may be interested in an exchange I
had with a foreign student of mine a couple of days ago. I was sitting in my
office and she asked, "Can I come in?" Then she observed that she could not
use
the verb GO in her question, although I am the one that was inside my office.
(Apparently a counterpart of either verb would be OK in Korean!) I concurred,
adding that there was probably a pragmatic constraint that requires that one
adopt the addressee's "camera angle" (to borrow something from Susumo Kuno)
under such conditions. If I had been outside my office too, next to her or
behind her, she probably should have asked "Can I go in?" and I think that
"could I come in?" would have been infelicitous.  I don't think Chuck Fillmore
discussed this kind of constraint when he published his paper on COME/GO in
SEMIOTICA, I think in 1973.

     I have been thinking and believe that the constraint applies in other
cases too. If you are puritanistic you may want to skip this paragraph and not
come/go/get into the following considerations with me. In sexual intercourse a
man can only tell his partner that he is coming, not going, I suppose. His
partner naturally can only invite him to come. Are there other cases where
such
a rigid constraint is associated with COME, against GO--or the other way
around?

How's your paper/project coming along?
or How's your paper/project going (*along)?

Of course, any dialectal variation in this regard?

Sali.


**********************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
**********************************************************
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From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 17 18:27:51 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:27:51 -0500
Subject: COME vs GO
In-Reply-To: <200011171748.eAHHmE716956@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.132751.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'll only comment on your first example!  I'd say that if you and the
student were side by side at the door, or if she was just behind you, she
could say "May I come in?"  If she was in front of you, I'd agree that
"May/can I go in?" would be more felicitous--but I suspect both verbs might
be used.

At 11:50 AM 11/17/00 -0800, you wrote:
>This list has become unusually quiet... perhaps our minds are already into
>Thanksgiving next week. Well, some of you may be interested in an exchange
>I had with a foreign student of mine a couple of days ago. I was sitting
>in my office and she asked, "Can I come in?" Then she observed that she
>could not use the verb GO in her question, although I am the one that was
>inside my office. (Apparently a counterpart of either verb would be OK in
>Korean!) I concurred, adding that there was probably a pragmatic
>constraint that requires that one adopt the addressee's "camera angle" (to
>borrow something from Susumo Kuno) under such conditions. If I had been
>outside my office too, next to her or behind her, she probably should have
>asked "Can I go in?" and I think that "could I come in?" would have been
>infelicitous.  I don't think Chuck Fillmore discussed this kind of
>constraint when he published his paper on COME/GO in SEMIOTICA, I think in
>1973.
>
>      I have been thinking and believe that the constraint applies in
> other cases too. If you are puritanistic you may want to skip this
> paragraph and not come/go/get into the following considerations with me.
> In sexual intercourse a man can only tell his partner that he is coming,
> not going, I suppose. His partner naturally can only invite him to come.
> Are there other cases where such a rigid constraint is associated with
> COME, against GO--or the other way around?
>
>How's your paper/project coming along?
>or How's your paper/project going (*along)?
>
>Of course, any dialectal variation in this regard?
>
>Sali.
>
>
>**********************************************************
>Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
>University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
>Department of Linguistics
>1010 East 59th Street
>Chicago, IL 60637
>http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
>**********************************************************


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 17 05:36:38 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:36:38 +0800
Subject: COME vs GO
In-Reply-To: <200011171748.eAHHmE716956@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.133638.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:50 AM -0800 11/17/00, Salikoko Mufwene wrote:
>
>      I have been thinking and believe that the constraint applies in
>other cases too. If you are puritanistic you may want to skip this
>paragraph and not come/go/get into the following considerations with
>me. In sexual intercourse a man can only tell his partner that he is
>coming, not going, I suppose. His partner naturally can only invite
>him to come.

Hope you're not presupposing that only a male partner gets to do so!
(There's also the fact that excretory, as opposed to sexual,
functions are referred to as 'going' rather than 'coming', whence a
collection of jokes that, it being lunchtime in some parts of North
American, I'll spare you the details of but have to do with someone
who didn't know if s/he was coming or going.)

More seriously, the kinds of variables with respect to 'come' and
'go' you mention in your post are discussed in a nice paper by Eve
Clark in Language (50: 316-32, 1974) called "Normal States and
Evaluative Viewpoints", which contains a whole bunch of minimal pairs
where coming is possible but going isn't, or vice versa.

--larry
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From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Nov 17 18:41:09 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:41:09 -0500
Subject: COME vs GO
In-Reply-To: <200011171748.eAHHmE716956@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.134109.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


>... she asked, "Can I come in?" Then she observed that she could not use
>the verb GO in her question, although I am the one that was inside my
>office. (Apparently a counterpart of either verb would be OK in Korean!) I
>concurred, adding that there was probably a pragmatic constraint that
>requires that one adopt the addressee's "camera angle" (to borrow
>something from Susumo Kuno) under such conditions. If I had been outside
>my office too, next to her or behind her, she probably should have asked
>"Can I go in?" ...

An interesting observation (at least to me). I agree with the interpretation.

A parallel example: a phone conversation across town:

"How are you?"

"I'm sick."

"I'll bring you some chicken soup. How's your friend who lives over here
near me?"

"She's sick too."

"Then I'll take her some soup too."

>... In sexual intercourse a man can only tell his partner that he is
>coming, not going, I suppose.

I think this is a special usage. "Come" = "have an orgasm" or = "ejaculate"
(male subject). By contrast, "go" = "excrete" (i.e., "urinate"/"defecate"):
e.g., "Is there a restroom nearby? I've got to go." There are some jokes
based on this, along the lines of "He doesn't know whether he's coming or
going." I suppose "come" < "come to climax" or something like that, "go" <
"go to the toilet" or something like that.

At the moment of truth, one does not want to tell one's beloved that one is
going ... but then again, perhaps I'm naive or old-fashioned ....

-- Doug Wilson
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From JIM.WALKER at WANADOO.FR  Fri Nov 17 20:22:32 2000
From: JIM.WALKER at WANADOO.FR (Jim Walker)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 21:22:32 +0100
Subject: COME vs GO
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.212232.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>      I have been thinking and believe that the constraint applies in
>> other cases too. If you are puritanistic you may want to skip this
>> paragraph and not come/go/get into the following considerations with me.
>> In sexual intercourse a man can only tell his partner that he is coming,
>> not going, I suppose. His partner naturally can only invite him to come.
>> Are there other cases where such a rigid constraint is associated with
>> COME, against GO--or the other way around?

How felicitous is the reference to a "rigid constraint" in this context?

Jim


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 17 07:34:17 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:34:17 +0800
Subject: COME vs GO
In-Reply-To: <021801c050d4$44b252c0$584bf9c1@water.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.153417.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:22 PM +0100 11/17/00, Jim Walker wrote:
>  >>      I have been thinking and believe that the constraint applies in
>>>  other cases too. If you are puritanistic you may want to skip this
>>>  paragraph and not come/go/get into the following considerations with me.
>>>  In sexual intercourse a man can only tell his partner that he is coming,
>>>  not going, I suppose. His partner naturally can only invite him to come.
>>>  Are there other cases where such a rigid constraint is associated with
>>>  COME, against GO--or the other way around?
>
>How felicitous is the reference to a "rigid constraint" in this context?
>
hard to say


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 17 22:07:32 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:07:32 -0600
Subject: A Supreme.
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.160732.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Perhaps ADS has previously noticed the promotion of 'supreme' to the status of a noun, and apologies if this is old hat. I see that the online dictionaries do not record this sense (except for AHD4 which defines it as a sauce or kind of serving bowl/sherbert glass).

A supreme is a supreme court justice, either federal or state. The Supremes are the US Supreme Court. Drudge had a headline about the 'Fla Supremes'. As a plural it refers to 1) two or more supreme court justices, or 2) (collectively to any full supreme court.

This usage has been around for some time. Presumably it derives as a witty play on "Diana Ross and the Supremes". I think it's here to stay. It certainly passes the test of usefulness. It is considerably shorter than 'supreme court justice' or 'high court'.

Comments?

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From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Nov 17 22:47:17 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:47:17 -0600
Subject: "chad" newspaper article
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.164717.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 A few days ago a reporter tried to contact me to find out the etymology of
"chad."  We missed connections, although I could not have helped him much
anyway.  He then kindly sent me an e-mail containing his article, which I
now share with  ADS-L.

-----Gerald Cohen
>
>
>      Published Thursday, Nov. 16, 2000, in
>                    the San Jose Mercury News
>
>                    Finding the
>                    origin of `chad'
>                    is as difficult
>                    as naming a
>                    winner
>
>                    BY MIKE ANTONUCCI
>                    Mercury News
>
>                    Chad?
>
>                    Well, there's Chad Everett, the love-beaded Dr. Joe
>                    Gannon on the CBS hit ``Medical Center'' 30 years ago.
>                    There's also Chad Stuart of Chad & Jeremy, the English
>                    singers from the mid-1960s British Invasion.
>
>                    Both Chads are people -- and as far as we know,
>                    unperforated.
>
>                    Then there's ballot chad. You know: the indented,
>                    corner-dangling or completely punched-out bits of
>                    paper that are part of the low-tech argument over
>                    whether George W. Bush or Al Gore is winning the
>                    Florida version of presidential bingo.
>
>                    But where did that specific word come from?
>
>                    ``Wouldn't we all like to know?'' said Audrey Fischer, a
>                    public affairs specialist for the Library of Congress.
>
>                    There are theories, informed guesses and trails of
>                    informational bread crumbs that are no neater than all
>                    this confetti-like chad.
>
>                    If someone has the indisputable answer, would that
>                    person please share it soon?
>
>                    The bulk of the speculation about the derivation of
>                    ``chad'' involves a piece of equipment known as the
>                    Chadless keypunch.
>
>                    According to an online dictionary of computing terms
>                    (http://burks.bton.ac.uk/burks/foldoc/index.htm), the
>                    equipment cut U-shapes in punch cards, rather than
>                    punching out circular or rectangular bits. So, ``it was
>                    clear that if the Chadless keypunch didn't make them,
>                    the stuff that other keypunches made'' would, by a sort
>                    of backward designation, be ``chad.''
>
>                    That keypunch was named after its inventor, the site
>                    notes, although there's no mention of that individual's
>                    full name.
>
>                    Some dictionaries and other reference sources trace the
>                    word ``chad'' to the late 1940s or strongly associate it
>                    with computing and data processing. Others relate the
>                    word to the Teletypesetter -- a keyboard apparatus that
>                    produced perforated tapes.
>
>                    There are other suggested origins as well.
>
>                    The 1993 version of Webster's Third New International
>                    Dictionary suggested that chad is Scottish for gravel.
>                    Another possible root word is chaff, whose definitions
>                    include ``seed coverings and other debris'' and
>                    ``anything worthless.''
>
>                    And in the category of theories for which there is no
>                    evidence: Chad is an acronym for Card Hole Aggregate
>                    Debris -- though that's possibly just a ``backronym''
>                    devised after chad was in use.
>
>                    One Web site definition
>                    (www.webopedia.com/Programming/chad.html)
>                    incorporates the idea that the word acquired
>                    ``mainstream'' status in 1993 when used in directions
>for
>                    a card-based voting machine in California.
>
>                    But Tony Miller, who became chief legal counsel for the
>                    California secretary of state in 1976 and later served
>as
>                    acting secretary, said the word was well-known much
>                    earlier.
>
>                    ``I remember chad being used back in the late 1970s,
>                    and it was a common term at that point,'' said Miller.
>
>                    Some Web sites imply that the word is venerable
>                    enough to be a museum term.
>
>                    For example, the ``computer museum'' page on the Web
>                    site for the University of Virginia's department of
>                    computer science
>                    (www.cs.virginia.edu/brochure/museum.html)
>                    illustrates a section on keypunch cards with photos of
>                    an old IBM punch spindle and a jar full of chad.
>
>                    Like the election, it's not what you'd call pretty.
>
>
>                    Contact Mike Antonucci at
>                    mantonucci at sjmercury.com or (408) 920-5690.
>



gcohen at umr.edu


From sagehen at SLIC.COM  Sat Nov 18 00:12:47 2000
From: sagehen at SLIC.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:12:47 -0500
Subject: Flood insurance, anyone?
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.191247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Our Sen. Schumer (NY) said tonight on NPR that our election  laws are
antidiluvian.  Well, I suppose we all feel that way, especially if we sell
insurance.
A. Murie


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 17 14:05:11 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:05:11 +0800
Subject: Flood insurance, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <l03130300b63b78d9e889@[216.207.138.191]>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.220511.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Our Sen. Schumer (NY) said tonight on NPR that our election  laws are
>antidiluvian.  Well, I suppose we all feel that way, especially if we sell
>insurance.
>A. Murie

Interesting.  I assume he must have pronounced the prefix [&ntay],
since otherwise it would sound exactly like that of "antediluvian".
In the latter case, you can spot a reanalysis in the orthography but
not in the phonetics.

larry


From sagehen at SLIC.COM  Sat Nov 18 04:00:18 2000
From: sagehen at SLIC.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 23:00:18 -0500
Subject: Flood insurance, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <p04320404b63aeaf65e4b@[130.132.231.212]>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.230018.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>Our Sen. Schumer (NY) said tonight on NPR that our election  laws are
>>antidiluvian.  Well, I suppose we all feel that way, especially if we sell
>>insurance.
>>A. Murie
>
>Interesting.  I assume he must have pronounced the prefix [&ntay],
>since otherwise it would sound exactly like that of "antediluvian".
>In the latter case, you can spot a reanalysis in the orthography but
>not in the phonetics.
>
>larry

It was ANT EYE diluvian, loud & clear.
AM


A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at slic.com


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Nov 18 10:01:09 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 03:01:09 -0700
Subject: FW: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE (fwd)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.030109.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This adds an addendum to Tim's comments about the effects in the Midwest:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
... wouldn't that put much of the West back into the hands of the tribal
nations?  and at war with the territorial Spanish, and even the Catholic
church?  wouldn't  that make us aliens in the Tohono O'Odham Nation?

And of course that pesky Prop 203 would be null and void... since us
palefaces would need to speak Spanish, or Yaqui, or O'Odham, or ???
whichever way we take sides in the struggle with the Spanish colonization
and conversion....

I'm afraid we'd have to redistribute the property of the aliens, however,
displacing many of the snowbirds who have adopted this as their home in the
"golden years."  Would we go back to the original land grants to figure out
how to return the land?  would TCC become property of those
Mexican-Americans whose homes were gobbled up and bladed over for
construction?

(this is fertile ground for the Gridiron Show, if one ever gets produced
again)...

thanks for the laugh, Rudy!

Jay


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Sat Nov 18 14:07:03 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 15:07:03 +0100
Subject: www.americandialect.org
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.150703.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

The ADS web site address is now working properly.

http://www.americandialect.org/

The admins at the University of Georgia (our hosting service provider) discovered
that Network Solutions had a stray host address registration record that was not
deleted when it should have been. I just finished a group traceroute from servers around
the world and all now lead directly to the correct address, confirming that the error
has been fixed.

Thanks for your patience.

--
Grant Barrett
ADS Web Geek
gbarrett at monickels.com


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Sat Nov 18 21:40:43 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 15:40:43 -0600
Subject: COME vs GO
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.154043.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

In My Inland North/North Midland dialect, 
How's your paper coming?
How's your paper going? 
-- would both be OK.

The following oberservation is scatological but perhaps interesting.
One "comes" during sexual activity.
One "goes" to the bathroom.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Salikoko Mufwene 
  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
  Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 1:50 PM
  Subject: COME vs GO


  This list has become unusually quiet... perhaps our minds are already into Thanksgiving next week. Well, some of you may be interested in an exchange I had with a foreign student of mine a couple of days ago. I was sitting in my office and she asked, "Can I come in?" Then she observed that she could not use the verb GO in her question, although I am the one that was inside my office. (Apparently a counterpart of either verb would be OK in Korean!) I concurred, adding that there was probably a pragmatic constraint that requires that one adopt the addressee's "camera angle" (to borrow something from Susumo Kuno) under such conditions. If I had been outside my office too, next to her or behind her, she probably should have asked "Can I go in?" and I think that "could I come in?" would have been infelicitous.  I don't think Chuck Fillmore discussed this kind of constraint when he published his paper on COME/GO in SEMIOTICA, I think in 1973.

       I have been thinking and believe that the constraint applies in other cases too. If you are puritanistic you may want to skip this paragraph and not come/go/get into the following considerations with me. In sexual intercourse a man can only tell his partner that he is coming, not going, I suppose. His partner naturally can only invite him to come. Are there other cases where such a rigid constraint is associated with COME, against GO--or the other way around?

  How's your paper/project coming along?
  or How's your paper/project going (*along)?

  Of course, any dialectal variation in this regard?

  Sali.


  **********************************************************
  Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
  University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
  Department of Linguistics
  1010 East 59th Street
  Chicago, IL 60637
  http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
  **********************************************************

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From umrantigen at UMR.EDU  Sat Nov 18 22:17:32 2000
From: umrantigen at UMR.EDU (UMR CIS Antigen)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 16:17:32 -0600
Subject: Antigen found JS/Kak@m.Worm virus
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.161732.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Antigen for Exchange found Unknown infected with JS/Kak at m.Worm virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "     Re: COME vs GO", was
sent from Tim Frazer  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at University of Missouri/Rolla/UMR-MAIL01.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 19 00:40:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 19:40:15 EST
Subject: Chad (continued)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.194015.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     This is like a musical comedy.  I'm thinking CHICAGO.  Any minute now, I
expect Katherine Harris to go into Roxie Hart mode and sing:  "It's just a
voting hall where's there's a nightly brawl and all...those...chaaaaads!"

June 1960, GLOSSARY OF TERMS IN COMPUTERS AND DATA PROCESSING (Berkeley
Enterprises, Inc., Newtonville, Mass.) by Edmund C. Berkeley and Linda L.
Lovett.  Pg. 16:
chad--A small piece of paper tape or punch card removed when punching a hole
to represent information.
chadless--Paper Tape.  A type of punching of paper tape in which each chad is
left fastened by about a quarter of the circumference of the hole, at the
leading edge.  This mode of punching is useful where (1) it is undesirable to
destroy information written or printed on the punched tape or (2) it is
undesirable to produce chads.  Chadless punched paper tape must be sensed by
mechanical fingers, for the presence of chad in the tape would interfere with
reliable electrical or photoelectric reading of the paper tape.

1960--GLOSSARY OF TERMS USED IN AUTOMATIC DATA PROCESSING (Business
Publications ltd., London), edited by Erroll de Burgh Wilmot.  Pg. 10, col. 2:
CHAD: n.  Piece of paper separated from a tape when a hole is punched through
it.
CHADLESS TAPE: n.  Paper tape in which a code is punched without perforating
completely, hence without making CHADS (_q.v._).

1962--COMMUNICATIONS DICTIONARY (John F. Rider Publisher, Inc., NY) by James
F. Holmes.  (Same as 1965 below--ed.)

1965--DATA TRANSMISSION AND DATA PROCESSING DICTIONARY (John F. Rider
Publisher, Inc., NY) by James F. Holmes.  Pg. 13, col. 2:
_chad:_  Perforations severed from paper tape or cards.
(Pg. 14, col. 1--ed.)
_chadless tape:_  Tape used in printing telegraphy (teletypewriter
operation).  The perforations are not completely severed from the tape,
thereby permitting the characters representing the perforations in the tape
to be printed on the same tape.
_chad tape:_  Tape used in printing telegraphy (teletypewriter operation).
The perforations are severed from the tape making holes representing
characters.  The characters are not normally printed on chad tape.

1966--COMPUTER AND DATA PROCESSING, DICTIONARY AND GUIDE (Prentice-Hall) by
Jack Horn.  Pg. 20:
_Chad:_  a piece of paper removed when punching holes in paper tape.
_Chad Tape:_  the type of paper tape on which the discs of papers are
entirely detached, giving "clean hole" punching.  Contrasts with _Chadless
Tape_.
_Chadless Tape:_  the type of paper tape in which the punching does not
produce a clean hole, in that the disc of paper is not completely cut out.
Information can be printed over the tape "holes" as the paper fills the
"holes."  Contrasts with _Chad Tape._

1972--IBM DATA PROCESSING GLOSSARY.  Pg. 20, col. 2:
_chad._  The piece of material removed when forming a hole or notch in a
storage medium such as punched tape or punched cards.  Synonymous with chip.
_chadded._  Pertaining to the punching of tape in which chad results.
_chadless._  Pertaining to the punching of tape in which chad does not result.
_chadless tape._  Perforated tape with the chad partially attached, to
facilitate interpretive printing on the tape.

1981--THE DEVIL'S DP DICTIONARY (McGraw-Hill Book Company) by Stan
Kelly-Bootle.  Pg. 28:
_chad_ n. (plural _chadim_)  A piece of confetto produced by a tape or card
punch.
_chadless tape_ n.  Paper tape prepared on a punch with blunt pins.  _See
also_ CHAD.

1983--THE ILLUSTRATED DICTIONARY OF TYPOGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION (Rochester
Institute of Technology, NY) by Professor Michael L. Kleper.  Pg. 30:
_chad_  The waste material produced during the perforation of paper or
plastic tape.
_chadded paper_  Perforated tape with the holes completely removed.  See
chadless tape.
_chadless tape_  Paper or plastic tape punched so that the holes are not
entirely severed from the tape.


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Sun Nov 19 00:48:30 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 19:48:30 -0500
Subject: JS/Kak@m.Worm virus removal/prevention...
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.194830.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

With regard to the JS/Kak virus that was attached to a message sent to
the list, a patch is available from Microsoft, to PREVENT infection.
Information at:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/virus/kakworm.asp

Some antivirus software companies, with information about the virus, and
possible disinfection methods, at:
http://www.f-secure.com/v-descs/kak.htm
http://vil.mcafee.com/dispVirus.asp?virus_k=10509&
http://download.nai.com/products/mcafee-avert/JsKak.htm  [highly
detailed]
http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/wscript.kakworm.html

Additional information from Microsoft, relative to security, and
anti-virus information, in general, at:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/virus.asp

Not meaning to waste bandwidth, with this non-dialect message, but
thought that the information might be of help to a reader or two.  If
the sending of virus encrusted messages can be avoided, so much the
better.

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 19 01:36:55 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 20:36:55 EST
Subject: Sepia (1960-1963); "New York Minute"
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.203655.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   SEPIA was a "LIFE magazine" version of JET or EBONY or ESSENCE.  It was
published in Texas, but covered the entire U. S.
   One of the many things that I did in my day at the Library of Congress
last week was to look for "New York Minute."  It's not in Peter Tamony's word
list.  DARE places "New York Minute" in Texas in the 1960s.  A recent FYI
column in the NEW YORK TIMES addressed "New York Minute."
   The New York Jets had many players from Texas and a flashy quarterback
from the South named Joe Namath.  I checked 1960s football stories in the
Houston newspapers when the New York Jets played the Houston Oilers (usually,
twice a year).  I did NOT find "New York Minute."
   SEPIA had a regular column titled "AROUND THE U. S. IN FIVE MINUTES."
There seems to be a New York/Harlem story in each issue, so I'll minutely
check about seven more years of it next week.


February 1960, SEPIA, pg. 30, cols. 1-2 subhead--_Negroes, onced barred from
most Tinsel City gay spots, now mean the difference between turning a profit
and bankruptcy for many of them_.

April 1960, SEPIA, pg. 16, col. 3, cartoon of a bartender showing a boxing
ring in his establishment--"We installed it for our customers.  Business is
bad enough without a lot of 'let's just step outside and say that.'"

April 1960, SEPIA, pg. 36, col. 3:
   In a recent "Meeting of the Little Foxes" confab held in the Ford
Auditorium, a special "Foxey" award was handed out to high fashion queen
Dorothea Towles.
   It would seem that Howard barely has time these days to make hats and to
market them, what with all the big activities of his Shutterbugs.  Indeed, he
is now busily preparing for a 1960 tour of "The Little Foxes" (the models) to
European countries...
(See HDAS for "fox," and August 1961 entry below--ed.)

May 1960, SEPIA, pg. 46, col. 1, photo shows a sign that reads:
Andrew Battistella
Originator of the Famous
POOR BOY SANDWICHES
FRENCH MARKET
LUNCH & COFFEE STAND
Miss Viola Battistella, Prop.

June 1960, SEPIA, pg. 6, col. 3, cartoon of a boy listening to an ice cream
truck's jingle--"Listen, Helen, they're playing our song."

July 1960, SEPIA, Pg. 30, col. 1--By now he has grown accustomed to what he
calls the (Col. 2--ed.) "hate stare" given Negroes by whites.

November 1960, SEPIA, pg. 52, cols. 1-2--_WHAT HAVE THE SIT-IN DEMONSTRATIONS
ACCOMPLISHED?_

January 1961, SEPIA, pg. 3, col. 3 ad--(Doctor gives "OK" sign--ed.)

February 1961, SEPIA, pg. 75, col. 2--_Every time he is on basketball court
Elgin Baylor proves that he is "Mr. Everything."_

March 1961, SEPIA, pg. 24, col. 2, headline--_He's really got "what it
takes."_

March 1961, SEPIA, pg. 26, col. 1--_COED, 17, FACING A "FEDERAL CASE."_  (See
ADS-L archives for "federal case"--ed.)

March 1961, SEPIA, pg. 51, col. 1--"I'm no sick comedian!"  (Redd Foxx--ed.)

April 1961, SEPIA, pg. 42, cols. 1-2 subhead--_A group of Hollywood
celebrities who call themselves the "rat Pack" performed before a jam-packed
Carnegie Hall audience to boost integration in the South.

May 1961, SEPIA, pg. 60, col. 2, headline--_Actors, announcers, editors rub
shoulders_.

August 1961, SEPIA, pg. 64, col. 2--LOS ANGELES was the host city this year
for the third annual Little Foxes Fashion Fiesta, a brain-child of dimunitive
hat designer Bill Howard.  In what has quickly become one of the most unique
of national events for Negro models, lovely lasses representing such cities
as Detroit, St. Louis, Cleveland, Chicago, Los Angeles and Gary, Indiana,
gathered on the sunswept West Coast for two days of elaborate events.

January 1962, SEPIA, pg. 38, col. 1, headline--_Coach Places Emphasis On
Building Character_.

January 1962, SEPIA, pg. 39, col. 2--Taking the label from (Florida--ed.)
A&M's motto, "Blood, Sweat and Tears," he applied them to his three football
units and fanned the fire of combat and rivalry.

February 1962, SEPIA, pg. 42--"Everyone you meet says, 'Some of my best
friends are Negroes.'"

February 1962, SEPIA, pg. 42, col. 2--And so it goes.

September 1962, SEPIA, pg. 49, col. 1, headline--Why Ray Charles Sings
Country Music.

September 1962, SEPIA, pg. 57, col. 1, headline--_JOHNNY HARTMAN...A SINGER'S
SINGER._

January 1963, SEPIA, pg. 28 photo of Redd Foxx with a towel on his
head--"Still using that greasy kid stuff?"

January 1963, SEPIA, pg. 76, col. 1--In this column, Dan (Burley--ed.) got
down to the nitty-gritty of the big-city Negro life...

February 1963, SEPIA, pg. 56, col. 1, headline--_aretha franklin: SOUL
SINGER_.

February 1963, SEPIA, pg. 58, col. 1--Singer digs into plates of "soul food"
when she feels energy running low.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Nov 18 13:24:37 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:24:37 +0800
Subject: new verb (to me) in Times Magazine
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.212437.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, not in Safire's column, but in the next piece, "The New
Economy/Dot Dot Dot?", on the fate of "the victims of the recent
dot-com layoffs".  Says interviewee Trina Williams, who was downsized
out of her job at RealNames Corp. last June,

"For the last couple of months I've been consulting at my favorite
nonprofit, Community Impact, in Palo Alto.  As one person here said,
I'm DOT-ORG-ING for a while instead of dot-com-ing.  It provides the
meaning many of us are looking for in our work."

(NYT Magazine, 11.19.00, p. 44, emphasis added)

larry

[If enough people do it, it could turn into a dot-orgy, if they don't
mind indulging in a little harmless velar softening along the way.]


From jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM  Sun Nov 19 02:47:22 2000
From: jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM (Jeffrey William McKeough)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:47:22 -0500
Subject: new verb (to me) in Times Magazine
In-Reply-To: <p04320400b63c317cbf33@[130.132.231.247]> from "Laurence Horn" at
 Nov 18, 2000 09:24:37 PM
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.214722.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I heard a new verb today, myself: "I've never chadded a ballot.  We
have the machines with the levers."

--
Jeffrey William   Do things gradually (Do it slow!)
   McKeough       But bring more tragedy (Do it slow!)
jwm at spdcc.com     Why don't you see it?  Why don't you feel it?
(or spdcc.net)    I don't know!  I don't know! - Mississippi Goddam


From nyinstitute at VIABCP.COM  Sun Nov 19 05:55:38 2000
From: nyinstitute at VIABCP.COM (Richard Petty Deegan)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:55:38 -0500
Subject: new verb (to me) in Times Magazine
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.005538.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We've had something similar here in Peru since the elections in april :
Ongiando, whose english version would be NGOing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 8:24 AM
Subject: new verb (to me) in Times Magazine


> No, not in Safire's column, but in the next piece, "The New
> Economy/Dot Dot Dot?", on the fate of "the victims of the recent
> dot-com layoffs".  Says interviewee Trina Williams, who was downsized
> out of her job at RealNames Corp. last June,
>
> "For the last couple of months I've been consulting at my favorite
> nonprofit, Community Impact, in Palo Alto.  As one person here said,
> I'm DOT-ORG-ING for a while instead of dot-com-ing.  It provides the
> meaning many of us are looking for in our work."
>
> (NYT Magazine, 11.19.00, p. 44, emphasis added)
>
> larry
>
> [If enough people do it, it could turn into a dot-orgy, if they don't
> mind indulging in a little harmless velar softening along the way.]
>


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov 19 13:55:08 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 08:55:08 -0500
Subject: Sepia (1960-1963); "New York Minute"
In-Reply-To: <f4.4a7e8e0.274888b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.085508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

Be careful. Joe Namath was not FROM the South (although he played his
college ball at Alabama). He was from that goldmine of professional
football players known as western Pennsylvania.

dInIs

>   SEPIA was a "LIFE magazine" version of JET or EBONY or ESSENCE.  It was
>published in Texas, but covered the entire U. S.
>   One of the many things that I did in my day at the Library of Congress
>last week was to look for "New York Minute."  It's not in Peter Tamony's word
>list.  DARE places "New York Minute" in Texas in the 1960s.  A recent FYI
>column in the NEW YORK TIMES addressed "New York Minute."
>   The New York Jets had many players from Texas and a flashy quarterback
>from the South named Joe Namath.  I checked 1960s football stories in the
>Houston newspapers when the New York Jets played the Houston Oilers (usually,
>twice a year).  I did NOT find "New York Minute."
>   SEPIA had a regular column titled "AROUND THE U. S. IN FIVE MINUTES."
>There seems to be a New York/Harlem story in each issue, so I'll minutely
>check about seven more years of it next week.
>
>
>February 1960, SEPIA, pg. 30, cols. 1-2 subhead--_Negroes, onced barred from
>most Tinsel City gay spots, now mean the difference between turning a profit
>and bankruptcy for many of them_.
>
>April 1960, SEPIA, pg. 16, col. 3, cartoon of a bartender showing a boxing
>ring in his establishment--"We installed it for our customers.  Business is
>bad enough without a lot of 'let's just step outside and say that.'"
>
>April 1960, SEPIA, pg. 36, col. 3:
>   In a recent "Meeting of the Little Foxes" confab held in the Ford
>Auditorium, a special "Foxey" award was handed out to high fashion queen
>Dorothea Towles.
>   It would seem that Howard barely has time these days to make hats and to
>market them, what with all the big activities of his Shutterbugs.  Indeed, he
>is now busily preparing for a 1960 tour of "The Little Foxes" (the models) to
>European countries...
>(See HDAS for "fox," and August 1961 entry below--ed.)
>
>May 1960, SEPIA, pg. 46, col. 1, photo shows a sign that reads:
>Andrew Battistella
>Originator of the Famous
>POOR BOY SANDWICHES
>FRENCH MARKET
>LUNCH & COFFEE STAND
>Miss Viola Battistella, Prop.
>
>June 1960, SEPIA, pg. 6, col. 3, cartoon of a boy listening to an ice cream
>truck's jingle--"Listen, Helen, they're playing our song."
>
>July 1960, SEPIA, Pg. 30, col. 1--By now he has grown accustomed to what he
>calls the (Col. 2--ed.) "hate stare" given Negroes by whites.
>
>November 1960, SEPIA, pg. 52, cols. 1-2--_WHAT HAVE THE SIT-IN DEMONSTRATIONS
>ACCOMPLISHED?_
>
>January 1961, SEPIA, pg. 3, col. 3 ad--(Doctor gives "OK" sign--ed.)
>
>February 1961, SEPIA, pg. 75, col. 2--_Every time he is on basketball court
>Elgin Baylor proves that he is "Mr. Everything."_
>
>March 1961, SEPIA, pg. 24, col. 2, headline--_He's really got "what it
>takes."_
>
>March 1961, SEPIA, pg. 26, col. 1--_COED, 17, FACING A "FEDERAL CASE."_  (See
>ADS-L archives for "federal case"--ed.)
>
>March 1961, SEPIA, pg. 51, col. 1--"I'm no sick comedian!"  (Redd Foxx--ed.)
>
>April 1961, SEPIA, pg. 42, cols. 1-2 subhead--_A group of Hollywood
>celebrities who call themselves the "rat Pack" performed before a jam-packed
>Carnegie Hall audience to boost integration in the South.
>
>May 1961, SEPIA, pg. 60, col. 2, headline--_Actors, announcers, editors rub
>shoulders_.
>
>August 1961, SEPIA, pg. 64, col. 2--LOS ANGELES was the host city this year
>for the third annual Little Foxes Fashion Fiesta, a brain-child of dimunitive
>hat designer Bill Howard.  In what has quickly become one of the most unique
>of national events for Negro models, lovely lasses representing such cities
>as Detroit, St. Louis, Cleveland, Chicago, Los Angeles and Gary, Indiana,
>gathered on the sunswept West Coast for two days of elaborate events.
>
>January 1962, SEPIA, pg. 38, col. 1, headline--_Coach Places Emphasis On
>Building Character_.
>
>January 1962, SEPIA, pg. 39, col. 2--Taking the label from (Florida--ed.)
>A&M's motto, "Blood, Sweat and Tears," he applied them to his three football
>units and fanned the fire of combat and rivalry.
>
>February 1962, SEPIA, pg. 42--"Everyone you meet says, 'Some of my best
>friends are Negroes.'"
>
>February 1962, SEPIA, pg. 42, col. 2--And so it goes.
>
>September 1962, SEPIA, pg. 49, col. 1, headline--Why Ray Charles Sings
>Country Music.
>
>September 1962, SEPIA, pg. 57, col. 1, headline--_JOHNNY HARTMAN...A SINGER'S
>SINGER._
>
>January 1963, SEPIA, pg. 28 photo of Redd Foxx with a towel on his
>head--"Still using that greasy kid stuff?"
>
>January 1963, SEPIA, pg. 76, col. 1--In this column, Dan (Burley--ed.) got
>down to the nitty-gritty of the big-city Negro life...
>
>February 1963, SEPIA, pg. 56, col. 1, headline--_aretha franklin: SOUL
>SINGER_.
>
>February 1963, SEPIA, pg. 58, col. 1--Singer digs into plates of "soul food"
>when she feels energy running low.


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Nov 19 14:26:12 2000
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 09:26:12 -0500
Subject: Sepia (1960-1963); "New York Minute"
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.092612.0500.ABATEFR@EARTHLINK.NET>

Dennis P said:

Barry,

Be careful. Joe Namath was not FROM the South (although he played his
college ball at Alabama). He was from that goldmine of professional
football players known as western Pennsylvania.

dInIs
************
True.  Just to elaborate for a moment (off topic), W Pa. has been amazing in
producing top pro quarterbacks.  All from counties near and around
Pittsburgh are the following: Johnny Unitas, Joe Namath, Joe Montana, Dan
Marino, Jim Kelly.  This is remarkable, in that each of these guys had
legendary pro careers at QB.  There must be some great coaches in that
region.

Frank Abate


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov 19 14:52:49 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 09:52:49 -0500
Subject: Sepia (1960-1963); "New York Minute"
In-Reply-To: <000401c05234$acd08e60$9b01a8c0@fabate>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.095249.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Frank,

If you look at the book "This Remarkable Continent" (from Texas A&M Press),
which maps the silliest facts imaginable (including where pro football
players come from as well as US dialect boundaries), you will find it ain't
just QBs from within a stone's throw of Beaver Falls.

What's off-topic about regional distribution? Spose the pro football
isogloss turned out to be as important as the log cabin construction style
one in corresponding to speech boundaries?

dInIs

>Dennis P said:
>
>Barry,
>
>Be careful. Joe Namath was not FROM the South (although he played his
>college ball at Alabama). He was from that goldmine of professional
>football players known as western Pennsylvania.
>
>dInIs
>************
>True.  Just to elaborate for a moment (off topic), W Pa. has been amazing in
>producing top pro quarterbacks.  All from counties near and around
>Pittsburgh are the following: Johnny Unitas, Joe Namath, Joe Montana, Dan
>Marino, Jim Kelly.  This is remarkable, in that each of these guys had
>legendary pro careers at QB.  There must be some great coaches in that
>region.
>
>Frank Abate


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Nov 19 17:57:35 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:57:35 -0600
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.115735.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  I have been looking over Barry Popik's  recent ads-l information on
"chad" and FWIW have been speculating on its origin:

(1) Barry's first attestation (aside from OED2) comes from June 1960, and
the context of all his attestations is automatic data processing. (I do not
have OED2 handy;  Barry gives 1959 as its first cite of "chad.")

(2) We therefore deal with the context of "tech-speak"and the etymology
must therefore be sought in this context.

(3) With a search for a  precedent in, say, Middle English, therefore
almost certainly  unfruitful, the question is: Where in the world could
young technically oriented people have turned to for inspiration that would
result in a word whose origin is not readily transparent?

(4) The only likely answer that occurred to me is: an an acronym or partial
acronym.
But what words could plausibly form the acronym?

(5) When I  took a second look  at Barry's information, two points stood
out: (a) the specific mention of "automatic data" in the 1960 publication
"Glossary of Terms Used In Automatic Data Processing." This might (and I
emphasize "might") be reflected in the "-ad" part of "chad."
      (b) The second is the mention of a chad as a "chip" in the following
item:
>1972--IBM DATA PROCESSING GLOSSARY.  Pg. 20, col. 2:
>_chad._  The piece of material removed when forming a hole or notch in a
>storage medium such as punched tape or punched cards.  Synonymous with chip.

(6) So my tentatively advanced, speculative etymology of "chad" is
(drumroll, please):
an acronym of CHip of Automatic Data.

-----Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From sagehen at SLIC.COM  Sun Nov 19 17:53:47 2000
From: sagehen at SLIC.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:53:47 -0500
Subject: more chad chaff
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.125347.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>(6) So my tentatively advanced, speculative etymology of "chad" is
>(drumroll, please):
>an acronym of CHip of Automatic Data.

>-----Gerald Cohen


How about:
Cut Hole And Discard.

I, too, like the notion of an acronym and see that it could lead to ENDLESS
discussion of candidates, just as the election itself seems to be doing.
A. Murie


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Sun Nov 19 17:51:34 2000
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:51:34 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.125134.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

... if <chad> is <ch>ip + <a>utomatic <d>ata, then why in Barry's post
does one source give the Hebrew plural chadim?

-- db
___________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl                 einstein at frognet.net     tel: (740)
592-1617
          home page:  http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov 19 18:04:56 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 13:04:56 -0500
Subject: more chad chaff
In-Reply-To: <l03130303b63dc36dc3ca@[216.207.140.192]>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.130456.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Normally, I am a fan of Gerald's as regards etymological stuff, but the
claim that we are in the new (data processing) age and should not look to
Middle English for sources leaves me a little worried about words like
"airplane," "helicopter," and the like.

dInIs (who admittedly likes old wine in old bottles but will look elsewhere)

>>(6) So my tentatively advanced, speculative etymology of "chad" is
>>(drumroll, please):
>>an acronym of CHip of Automatic Data.
>
>>-----Gerald Cohen
>
>
>How about:
>Cut Hole And Discard.
>
>I, too, like the notion of an acronym and see that it could lead to ENDLESS
>discussion of candidates, just as the election itself seems to be doing.
>A. Murie


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Nov 19 18:09:37 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 13:09:37 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <3A181326.88E08559@frognet.net>; from einstein@FROGNET.NET on
 Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 12:51:34PM -0500
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.130937.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 12:51:34PM -0500, David Bergdahl wrote:
> ... if <chad> is <ch>ip + <a>utomatic <d>ata, then why in Barry's post
> does one source give the Hebrew plural chadim?

I don't think for a second that _chad_ has an acronymic etymology,
but the answer to the second quesion is surely that computer
types often use amusing unetymological plurals; there are various
words with _-im_ plurals, such as _frobnitz, frobnitzim_, and
even more with _-en_ plurals, such as _Vax, Vaxen._

I'll let Gareth go into more detail.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Nov 19 19:16:58 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:16:58 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <v03130300b63db9d03f2c@[131.151.64.140]>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.141658.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>(1) Barry's first attestation (aside from OED2) comes from June 1960, and
>the context of all his attestations is automatic data processing. (I do not
>have OED2 handy;  Barry gives 1959 as its first cite of "chad.")

Merriam-Webster gives 1947. Random House says "1945-50".

>(2) We therefore deal with the context of "tech-speak"and the etymology
>must therefore be sought in this context.

Not necessarily. "Chad" was also called "chips", also "confetti" -- these
are not tech-speak, are they?

>(3) ... Where in the world could
>young technically oriented people have turned to for inspiration that would
>result in a word whose origin is not readily transparent?

People in the 1940's [maybe not so young (maybe the youngsters were in the
front lines); maybe not so technically oriented (see below)]? Many places,
some of which we may have forgotten now. The origin from Scots "chad" =
"gravel" offered in Webster's Third (1961) seems reasonable to me. If there
was an early acronym (say mid-1940's), the MW people didn't know about it
around 1960, so I doubt one can find it easily now ... in fact, I doubt
there was one. Note also that none of the quotations re "chad" in the early
1960's seems to give an acronym (I couldn't find an early acronym in my
library browsing either).

I submitted programs on punched cards (punched by myself) as early as the
mid-1960's, and I punched paper for ring binders before that: AFAIK I never
heard the word "chad", and I never felt the need for a name for the little
paper chips or discs. Who dealt with chad in large volume? Who would need a
specific name for it? Programmers? Maybe, maybe not. Keypunch operators and
teletype operators? Probably. Janitors? Certainly. Not only techno-geeks by
any means. Some members of any of these groups may have spoken Scots.

>... _chad._  The piece of material removed when forming a hole or notch in a
> >storage medium such as punched tape or punched cards.  Synonymous with chip.

>(6) So my tentatively advanced, speculative etymology of "chad" is ... an
>acronym of CHip of Automatic Data.

Not entirely impossible. But perhaps "chips" < "CHaff from Information
Processing Systems" is just as good.

I don't favor it, but then I'm prejudiced against acronym etymologies in
general. I will admit that the chronology is consistent with a military
origin, in which case an acronym might be less unbelievable than usual.

-- Doug Wilson


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Sun Nov 19 19:35:04 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:35:04 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001119130014.00a398d0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.143504.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I like Chip Debris from Automatic Data.

> From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:16:58 -0500
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "chad"--a possible origin
>
>> (6) So my tentatively advanced, speculative etymology of "chad" is ... an
>> acronym of CHip of Automatic Data


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov 19 20:26:16 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:26:16 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <B63D9597.4DE2%highbob@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.152616.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yeah, and I like Port Out Starboard Home, Found On the Road Dead, and For
Unlawful Carnal Knowledge too, but I like them because I like folk
linguistics.

dInIs


>I like Chip Debris from Automatic Data.
>
>> From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
>> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:16:58 -0500
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: "chad"--a possible origin
>>
>>> (6) So my tentatively advanced, speculative etymology of "chad" is ... an
>>> acronym of CHip of Automatic Data


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 19 20:57:23 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:57:23 EST
Subject: Mr. Chad
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.155723.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Not one of the books that I cited listed an acronym for "chad."
    I have not seen M-W's "chad" entry, but I trust that it's 1947.
    I still have to check the ACM COMMITTEE ON NOMENCLATURE, first glossary
of programming terminology, 257 terms (June 1954), and any newsletter of the
International Typographical Union, which complained about "cheap tape" in a
TIME article on the teletypesetter, July 23, 1953, pages 68-69.

NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE, 18 March 1946, pg. 42, col. 2:
_Mr. Clem_
_And Mr. Chad_
TO THE EDITOR:
   I HAVE followed with interest the article and correspondence in THE TIMES
MAGAZINE regarding "Clem," whose face American soldiers scrawled on walls at
European redeployment depots.  I and several school friends find him
interesting owing to his very close resemblance to Mr. Chad, a British
wall-peeper who has been seen everywhere here during the last few years.  May
I quote from The Sunday Express of London, Dec. 2, 1945?  (OED's first
cite--ed.)
   "What is the origin of that peculiarly laughable figure called Chad we see
so often scribbled across our walls? *** Of all the stories of Chad's origin
the most likely appears to be one that comes from a REME (Royal Electrical
and Mechanical Engineers) unit.
   (See article for Chad drawings--ed.)
   "Thus was Chad born--but why the name Chad?  Perhaps it comes from the
nickname of a REME training unit, popularly known as 'Chad's Temple'--perhaps
not."
   KENNETH JOHNSON
   (age 15)
Letchworth, Hertfordshire,
England.

LIFE magazine, 18 March 1946, pg. 17, col. 2:
_WOT!_
_CHAD'S HERE_
_Britain's war gremlin_
_becomes a symbol of_
_civilian problems_
by ELIZABETH REEVE
   LONDON
(Long article.  LIFE should be available everywhere--ed.)
(Pg. 18, col. 2--ed.)
   The history of Mr. Chad is blanketed in mystery.  Like Topsy and that
highly organized race of saboteurs, the RAF gremlins, it seems he just
"growed."  Army and air force hotly contend for the (Pg. 20, col. 2--ed.)
honor of having discovered him.  Both generally agree that he started to
patronize the various armed forces about two years ago, although his Cockney
tag lines were common army currency long before.
   Most probable explanation of his origin is a doodle by a bored radio or
electrical trainee in the RAF or REME (which stands for Royal Electrical
Mechanical Engineers, popularly known as "Remmay").  Certainly he has long
been the special favorite of radio operators, electrical and radio mechanics
in the British services.
   (...)(Chad drawings cannot be reproduced here--ed.)
_Chad's christening_
   More conflicting is the folklore surrounding the origin of Mr. CHad's
name.  A REME unit claims it came from their training school, nicknamed
"Chad's Temple" after the instructor.  Another legend asserts Chad was named
for an RAF club, Chadwich House, near a Lancashire air force radio school.
Eighth Army Desert Rats have claimed that Chad was named after a snoopy
officer in the El Mamem (illegible--ed.) campaign.  He has been alternatively
known as "Flywheel," (Pg. 23, col. 2--ed.)  "Doomie" or "The Goon" in the
RAF; "Foo" or "The Watcher" in the Royal Navy; "Clem," "Private Snoops," or
"The Jeep" in the army.  Lesser gremlins have tried lately to cash in on
Chad's popularity with more elaborate portraits and new catch phrases, but
Chad has a long start on his rivals, who are mostly short-lived.
   Chad is no officer's pet.  He has been called "the patron saint of dumb
insolence--that elusive army crime so satisfyingly difficult to pin down."
His dry humor is typically British and his Cockney sympathies are always with
the Sad Sacks in the lower ranks of the service. (...)

(Maybe I'll look through any REME journals, too--ed.)


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Sun Nov 19 20:53:41 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:53:41 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <l03130302b63de7a0c0ac@[35.9.49.206]>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.155341.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Exactly.

> From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:26:16 -0500
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "chad"--a possible origin
>
> Yeah, and I like Port Out Starboard Home, Found On the Road Dead, and For
> Unlawful Carnal Knowledge too, but I like them because I like folk
> linguistics.
>
> dInIs
>
>
>> I like Chip Debris from Automatic Data.
>>
>>> From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
>>> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:16:58 -0500
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>> Subject: Re: "chad"--a possible origin
>>>
>>>> (6) So my tentatively advanced, speculative etymology of "chad" is ... an
>>>> acronym of CHip of Automatic Data
>
>
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sun Nov 19 19:58:42 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:58:42 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.145842.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

douglas at NB.NET,Net writes:
>The origin from Scots "chad" =
>"gravel" offered in Webster's Third (1961) seems reasonable to me.

This is true.  But, in subsequent publications they (MW) have preferred
"origin unknown."  So, too: OED-as #1 and AHD.

I'd like to know more about the MW 1947 quote.

Regards,
David Barnhart

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Nov 19 21:37:29 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:37:29 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <msg50676.thr-7182a6d1.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.163729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> >The origin from Scots "chad" =
> >"gravel" offered in Webster's Third (1961) seems reasonable to me.
>
>This is true.  But, in subsequent publications they (MW) have preferred
>"origin unknown."  So, too: OED-as #1 and AHD.
>
>I'd like to know more about the MW 1947 quote.

I think Webster's Third said "possibly" or something like that. Presumably
there is no firmly established origin, but of the hypotheses I've seen
proposed, I like this one. Robert Hendrickson presents a possibly
indistinguishable one: "chad" < "chat" = "gravel"/"mining refuse", but MW
seems more authoritative and this "chat" is a VERY obscure word (might as
well be Scots!) ....

I don't have a quote from MW. I just note that the date 1947 is given in
the MW on-line dictionary: presumably the MW editors could produce a quote.

-- Doug Wilson


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov 19 21:36:01 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:36:01 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <20001119130937.A25131@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.163601.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> I don't think for a second that _chad_ has an acronymic etymology,
> but the answer to the second quesion is surely that computer
> types often use amusing unetymological plurals; there are various
> words with _-im_ plurals, such as _frobnitz, frobnitzim_, and
> even more with _-en_ plurals, such as _Vax, Vaxen._

I agree with Jesse that an acronymic etymology is very unlikely.  If it's
an acronym, why are none of the earliest examples (including 1947 and 1962
citations I have looked at that are not included in Barry's post)
capitalized and why do none of them refer to an acronymic derivation?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 19 22:11:49 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 17:11:49 EST
Subject: Chad & REME
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.171149.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I have e-mailed the secretary of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical
Engineers (bensec at rhqreme.demon.co.uk) and their publication CRAFTSMAN
(crftsman at rhqreme.demon.co.uk) about "Mr. Chad."  See their web site at
www.rememuseum.org.uk.
   OCLC WorldCat shows that Columbia University has FIRST GLOSSARY OF
PROGRAMMING TERMINOLOGY by Charles William Adams (ACM, 1954), and I'll go
back there only if somebody's gotta see it.  It's probably not worth the few
hours' schlep.
   The NYPL has the International Typographical Union THE BULLETIN (also, THE
TYPOGRAPHICAL JOURNAL or THE ITU JOURNAL or ITU REVIEW).  I'll check for
chads, but it'll probably be deathly boring.
   An interesting journal that came up on WorldCat under the subject
"Trade-unions--Printing industry--United States--Periodicals" is THE BUG
(Description based on No. 3 June 1940), LC Z243.U5, Allied Printing Trades
Council, Kansas City, Kansas.  (NOT Missouri!!)  Did Fred Shapiro "de-bug"
this?


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 19 22:17:55 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:17:55 CST
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.161755.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: "Douglas G. Wilson"

>Robert Hendrickson presents a possibly indistinguishable one: "chad" <
>"chat" = "gravel"/"mining refuse"

'Mining refuse', even 'mine tailings'. This *does* make sense, with as much
semantic logic as does an alteration of 'chaff'. And it could indeed be
British/Scots in origin. What kind of tape/punchcards were used during WWII
and immediately thereafter in the UK?

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Sun Nov 19 23:07:46 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:07:46 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.180746.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Was chaff also used in WWII, as either square or rectangular shapes in
foil, toward disrupting certain radio communication efforts?  Possible
relationship between the words 'chaff' and 'chad', other than the first
three letters of each word?

Not a very good photo of chaff, but a rectangular object is in the
photo:
http://www.denix.osd.mil/denix/Public/Library/Rfchaff/Images/images.html

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Nov 20 01:25:09 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:25:09 -0600
Subject: "chad" suggestion withdrawn
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.192509.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Many thanx to everyone who responded to my suggestion that "chad" might
have arisen as an acronym.  The input is much appreciated (accurate
criticism is always helpful), and I now withdraw my suggestion.

------Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Mon Nov 20 03:16:49 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 20:16:49 -0700
Subject: Of chads and things
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.201649.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This was too good not to pass along; though not new, at least newly
relevant. --Rudy

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:46:39 -0700
From: Gretchen Robinson <pismoclam at EARTHLINK.NET>
To: LINGUA at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: FW: the topic of poetry

With all that talk of dots and chads, I had to share this:


"Waka Waka Bang Splat"

<>!*''#
^@`$$-
!*'$_
%*<>#4
&)../
|{~~SYSTEM HALTED

Transliterated:

Waka waka bang splat tick tick hash,
Caret at back-tick dollar dollar dash,
Bang splat tick dollar under-score,
Percent splat waka waka number four,
Ampersand right-paren dot dot slash,
Vertical-bar curly-bracket tilde tilde CRASH.

--Fred Bremmer and Steve Kroese (according to
http://www.web.shorty.com/lists/geeks/96/dec/msg00005.html)


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Nov 20 03:19:25 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:19:25 -0600
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.211925.0600.>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20001119/2d4d317b/attachment.html>

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 20 03:37:49 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:37:49 EST
Subject: Rap; Dis; Chad
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.223749.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RAP (continued)

   I continued reading through the NEW YORK AMSTERDAM NEWS.

14 July 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 9, col. 1--_Rapping on the voter_.  (A
story about "Voter RAP," a registration awareness program in Harlem--ed.)

6 October 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 33, col. 3--_DJ Hollywood_ who feels
he's the original wrapper will be laying the track to a disco rap in the
studio this week.  I guess he feels it's about time he cashes in on a
tradition he espoused.  "Rapper's Delight" is becoming the fastest selling
(Col. 4--ed.) record to hit record shops in a long time.

20 October 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 34, col. 1:
_"Rap" disco record sweeps country_
By MINOR ROBERTS
   Take eight bars of a song that sold four million albums, three
fast-talking disc jockeys, then mix them together and what have you got?
Probably the fastest selling record in the history of the record industry.
   Sweeping the nation by storm, "Rapper's Delight" by an unknown trio called
the Sugar Hill Gang is the wonder of the record business.  In four short
weeks, its (sic) passed the million sales mark and veteran observers wouldn't
be surprised if it sold more than nine million before it runs out of steam.
   Taking the music of "Good Times" from the Chic album and putting the
voices of three deejays over it turned out to be a winning format for the
Sugar Hill record company in NMEW (?--ed.) Jersey.  In using only eight bars
of "good Times" which is (Col. 2) repeated throught the 17-minute, 12 inch
disc, the Black-owned firm avoided violating the copyright laws.
   The latter state that anyone can use up to eight bars of another's recoded
works without fear of a suit.  Going beyond that number can mean legal
trouble.
   Written by Sylvia Robinson (Photo in Col. 3--ed.), three motor-mouthed
disc jockeys "do their vocal thing" as they rhyme in double time on subjects
that strike a responsive chord with their teenage fans.
   To top it all off, young disc fans perform a dance they call the "Rap" as
the record spins.  Done in an offtime style, it involves making up your own
steps as one flings their arms, shakes their shoulders and throws in a
lowdown wiggle of their hips.
(...)

--------------------------------------------------------
DIS, et al.

26 May 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 27, col. 1:
_About niggers, honkies and blips_
   "Honkies is a blip," said Simple.
(Col. 6--ed.)
   "That word, _blip_--you got me there.  If I knew what it meant, I've
forgotten," said the bartender.  "Blip," said Simple, "is what you say
because the word that honkies really is, is too terrible, the devil himself
is shamed to say it."

30 June 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 33, col. 1--From the first cut to the
last, you will be taken on an exciting Musical tour.  _"This Group Is
Bad"_--and I do mean BAD!
(Actually, the writer means "good"--ed.)

30 June 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 34, col. 1:
_Tony Brown digs into "crossover music"_
(Col. 3--ed.)
   "Disco's the name, but crossover's the game.  Crossover is a marketing
term used to describe music that finds acceptance--meaning sales--in its own
cultural or social segment and then finds acceptance--and sales--among
another social group, and, so to speak, crosses over."

7 July 1979, NEW YORK AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 28 headline--_Dis-service
stations_.
(Peter Noel wrote the text.  E-mail him at the Village Voice if he had meant
"dis" in 1979.  HDAS has 1982--ed.)

28 July 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 28, col. 4--As everyone "partied hearty"
at New York, New York...

29 September 1979, AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 34, cols. 3-6:
_Filmmaker documents urban jargon_
(Robert Gardner's "Clarence: An Angel--ed.)
(Col.5--ed.)
   "The Black and Hispanic kids all related to the film (Col. 6--ed.) and
just fell out laughing, because it was part of their experience.  They knew
what 'ranking' and 'snapping' on someone meant.  The white professors, just
like many film programmers, had a cultural block to the film."

29 September 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 37, col. 4--_Van Jay_, another jock
on WBLS with an enticing and inviting voice, now, too, refers to Vaughn as
the man with the x-rated voice--the term I (Marie Moore--ed.) coined to
describe the air personality who upsets the women wherever he goes.

12 December 1981, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 31, cols. 4-6 headline--_Prince
rules supreme in sex-citement_.

--------------------------------------------------------
CHAD (continued)

   The Word Detective talks about "chad" and more...There's a good "Double
Dutch" in DARE.
-------------- next part --------------
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Subject: The Word Detective, November 27 through December 8, 2000
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:41:41 -0500
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 20 04:09:40 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 23:09:40 EST
Subject: Tally-hassle; Condo Commandos
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.230940.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TALLY-HASSLE--I've seen this a few times this week for Tallahassee, Florida.

CONDO COMMANDOS--There have been about 20 Dow Jones cites the past month.
>From an obituary for Anne Ackerman, 75, that ran in the LOS ANGELES TIMES,
5-3-1989:

   Her political friends included President Jimmy Carter, fellow Democrats
Walter Mondale and Michael S. Dukakis, and nearly every well-known Democratic
politician in Florida.
   Ackerman successfully roused retirees out of political apathy and
mobilized them into powerful voting blocs.  Famed for turnouts ranging more
than 90%, they were dubbed "condo commandos."

(Not in OED?--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Nov 20 02:41:38 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:41:38 -0500
Subject: Chad & REME
In-Reply-To: <c1.8df82ae.2749aa25@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.214138.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... The NYPL has the International Typographical Union THE BULLETIN (also, THE
>TYPOGRAPHICAL JOURNAL or THE ITU JOURNAL or ITU REVIEW).  I'll check for
>chads, but it'll probably be deathly boring.

I would suggest trying a telegraphy journal, if there is one. Or a ham
radio journal.

>    An interesting journal that came up on WorldCat under the subject
>"Trade-unions--Printing industry--United States--Periodicals" is THE BUG
>(Description based on No. 3 June 1940), LC Z243.U5, Allied Printing Trades
>Council, Kansas City, Kansas.  (NOT Missouri!!)  Did Fred Shapiro "de-bug"
>this?

I think the noun "bug" has a special sense in printing. The RHUD says: "a
label printed on certain matter to indicate that it was produced by a union
shop."

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Nov 20 10:00:18 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 05:00:18 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <3A18983D.6070009@missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.050018.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... the word 'chat' for the gravel that is used in resurfacing country
>roads in that area.  The chat comes from steel mills in northeast Texas
>that process locally mined iron ore. ... So, in some areas ... 'chat' as
>gravel is well known and the Scottish term not known at all.

This is what Hendrickson referred to, more or less: mining refuse used on
roads. I think in etymological speculation, an exact match generally should
be preferred: score 1 for "chad" = "gravel". But an English word should be
preferred over a Scots word: score 1 for "chat". I tend to trust MW more
than I do Hendrickson (who dates the word "chad" to the late 1960's!): 1
for "chad". But after all, I'm not sure that these two words for gravel are
really distinct!

DARE gives "chat" = "gravelly tailings from mines", and some of the
quotations indicate that "chat" is a corruption of "chert" -- but I'm not
sure this is substantiated, and "chert" itself is of mysterious origin.

The "English Dialect Dictionary" (Joseph Wright, ed.; Oxford, 1961) shows
"chad" = "gravel"/"riverbed stones" (Scotland, East Anglia) and also  =
"chaff" (in food) (Norfolk, East Anglia).

The EDD also gives "chat" = (1) "catkin" [hazel, maple], (2) "key" [ash,
sycamore], (3) "fir-cone", (5) "chip of wood", (7) "small inferior potato",
(8) "small piece of coal", (9) "piece of stone blended with lead ore" [like
the "chat" in DARE], etc. -- but notes that this word "chat" also occurs as
"chad" (Yorkshire, Derbyshire)!

All of these refer to small objects occurring in heaps ... just like
punch-card or punch-tape chad(s).

Several of the above would give credible origins for "chad" = "punched
paper chip(s)".

["Chat" refers to a bunch of other things, including lice, birds (DARE
gives "chat" and "chad" as bird names), kittens, etc., etc., and -- of
course -- like about 100,000 other words -- the female sex organ (cf.
French "chat").]

Note that "chad" is a very common word, perhaps virtually a recognition
signal, among teletype hobbyists as evidenced in -- e.g. -- the "Greenkeys"
archive at a ham radio site on the Web, with maybe 200 instances of "chad":
here's one page which includes the imaginary (?) fountain statue of a "nude
maiden pouring chads", no doubt a symbol of the brotherhood:

http://www.qth.net/archive/greenkeys/199904/19990403.html

There are also light or jocular references to inhaling chad by accident,
smoking chad like marijuana, using chad as confetti, etc. The chad here is
from punched tape.

Here is a case where someone opines that "chad" may come from the UK (not
convincing/conclusive at all, but I haven't seen any contrary geographic
speculation):

http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/mail/squeak/msg01818.html

But as we see from the EDD, the exact provenance of the word cannot be
established simply by assumption of British origin anyway.

-- Doug Wilson


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Nov 20 13:49:32 2000
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:49:32 -0500
Subject: "chad"-- a possible origin
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.084932.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In case anyone is interested, the 1947 citation for "chad" in our
files reads as follows:

The sample tape shown in Figure 2 is of the form produced by the
typing reperforator.  It is known as chadless tape because the
small discs, called chads, which are perforated to form the code
combinations are not cut completely from the tape but are
perforated only sufficiently to permit the chads to rise like small
hinged lids in response to the sensing pins of a transmitter.

RCA Review
Radio Corp. of America Vol. 8 No. 3
RCA Lab. Div. Sept. 1947

This same citation also provides our earliest evidence for
"chadless."  Every other early source I've looked at defines
"chadless" in the same way, i.e., in terms of a tape-punching
method resulting in a lack of chads.  The absence of any reference
to the name "Chadless" in these cites would seem to cast doubt
on the back-formation hypothesis posited as an explanation for
"chad."  Jim Rader mentioned to me that he'd investigated this
hypothesis some time ago by checking patent records for the
name, but came up with nothing.  The "perhaps" derivation in W3
from a Scots word meaning "gravel"  appeared to him to be pure
guesswork.

Joanne Despres
Merriam-Webster


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov 20 16:50:45 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 11:50:45 -0500
Subject: "urine" with long "i"
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.115045.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This came up on a list I subscribe to. As the name of the list suggests,
most of its members, including this one, are in the UK. I had asked about
an idiom I didn't understand.

   Mark A. Mandel : Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Senior Linguist
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com

---------- Forwarded message ----------
To: FILK_UK Mailing List <filk_uk at filklore.com>

Hi Mark,

     [...]

"Taking the piss", aka "Taking the mickey/michael" or "Extracting
the urine"*, means "Making fun off, usually (but not necessarily)
with an attitude of contempt".

*(which, in that context, is always pronounced "Yur-eye-n", even
if you normally prefer "Yur-inn" - Dunno why, just is)


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov 20 18:16:06 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:16:06 -0500
Subject: JS/Kak@m.Worm virus removal/prevention...
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.131606.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GSCole <gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU> writes:

>>>>>
With regard to the JS/Kak virus that was attached to a message sent to
the list, a patch is available from Microsoft, to PREVENT infection.
Information at:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/virus/kakworm.asp

     [...]

Not meaning to waste bandwidth, with this non-dialect message, but
thought that the information might be of help to a reader or two.  If
the sending of virus encrusted messages can be avoided, so much the
better.
<<<<<

Yet another reason, dear colleagues, not to post Word files, bitmaps, or
any other kind of gibberish, but stick to ASCII text.

-- Mark A. Mandel
(Sigh. </rant>)


From jessie at SIRSI.COM  Mon Nov 20 19:23:50 2000
From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:23:50 -0600
Subject: Mary Sue, Murray Sue, Marty Sue
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.132350.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know for a fact where the term "Mary Sue" came from?  Is it
indeed an outgrowth of Star Trek fan fiction?  When did "Murray Sue" and
"Marty Sue" enter the picture?

Here is some background:

"The answer is 'Mary-Sue-ism.' The term comes, I believe, from early Star
Trek fiction. To quote Melissa Wilson who wrote the excellent 'Mary Sue
Litmus Test' ( http://missy.reimer.com/library/marysue.html )and 'Dr.
Merlin's Guide to Fan Fiction':

"You already know Mary Sue. Mary Sue is the perky, bright, helpful
sixteen-year-old ensign who beams about the ship. Everyone on the ship likes
Mary Sue, because Mary Sue is good at everything. Mary Sue is an engineer, a
doctor in training, a good leader, an excellent cook, and is usually a
beautiful singer. Mary Sue often has mental powers that may manifest
themselves as telepathy, precognition, or magic. If Mary Sue is very young,
she is often the offspring of one or two already established characters. If
she's a little older, she will probably end up sleeping with the author's
favorite character. Her name is often the author's name, be it a net.name, a
favored nickname, or the author's middle name (this is seen in the most
famous Mary Sue of all time, Wesley Crusher, who was named after Trek
creator Eugene Wesley Roddenbery). By the end of the story, Mary Sue will be
in bed with the desired character, will have beamed away amid cheers from
all the regulars, or will be dead, usually accompanied by heavy mourning
from the cast. The reader, on the other hand, will be celebrating."

And some other links are found here:

http://www.subreality.com/marysue/lins.htm#LITMUS

Thanks,
Jessie Emerson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 20 19:39:58 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:39:58 EST
Subject: Telco Hotels (continued)
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.143958.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TELCO HOTELS

   Today's DAILY NEWS (NY), 20 November 2000, pages 32-33, "Buildings give
info equipment a home," has on pg. 32, col. 4:

   Welcome to a building of the future--the Telco Hotel.

   It used to be "telecom hotel."  Could these things ever be motels?

--------------------------------------------------------
CHAD

   The WASHINGTON POST of November 16th cites Evan Morris on "chad" and
mentions that people in the American Dialect Society have already mentioned
this for Word-of-the-Year.


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Nov 20 21:16:56 2000
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 16:16:56 -0500
Subject: Telco Hotels (continued)
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.161656.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A NY Times story dated Sept 6, 2000 also had "telco hotel".  I don't have a
quote or page, but I imagine it can be dug out via a search of their site.

Frank Abate

Dictionary & Reference Specialists (DRS)
Consulting & Lexicographic Services
(860) 510-0100, ext 2311
abatefr at earthlink.net


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Nov 20 22:24:45 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:24:45 -0500
Subject: "urine" with long "i"
In-Reply-To: <OFBA9A9F37.55D20CFD-ON8525699D.005C16BE@dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.172445.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"Taking the piss", aka "Taking the mickey/michael" or "Extracting
>the urine"*, means "Making fun off, usually (but not necessarily)
>with an attitude of contempt".
>
>*(which, in that context, is always pronounced "Yur-eye-n", even
>if you normally prefer "Yur-inn" - Dunno why, just is)

I refer to Cassell's slang dictionary.

"Mickey"/"Michael" apparently is rhyming slang ("Mickey Bliss") for "piss".

"Extracting the Michael/urine" is apparently a consciously prissy/genteel
elaboration/euphemism for "taking the piss [out of someone]". I think the
odd pronunciation of "urine" is explained by this interpretation, the user
lacking (or pretending to lack) "urine" in his usual speaking vocabulary.

What is the original sense of "taking the piss [out of ...]" = "tease"? Is
it parallel to "beating the piss out of someone"? Or to "taking the starch
out of someone"? Or does it actually refer to urethral catheterization
(which may have been more familiar to the 'common man' in the days before
successful antibiotic treatment of venereal diseases)?

Is there any connection with "pulling someone's
leg/tit/tail/chain/cock/pisser" = "teasing someone"?

-- Doug Wilson


From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Mon Nov 20 22:45:51 2000
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:45:51 -0500
Subject: Chads from the Past
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.174551.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A posting on The Well (the venerable net conferencing system) today
mentions an article in today's (11/20) Contra Costa Times (evidently taken
from the Orlando Sentinel) entitled "Chads who came before." Included was
Chad Brock (WCW wrestler),Chad Mitchell Trio (folk band from the '60s) and
a chain saw juggler named Mad Chad Taylor.

Also mentioned was a band called Chad Hollerith and The Perforations, two
members of which were Billy and Bobby Keepunch (!). They released one album
in 1956 according to the story.



--
Evan Morris
words1 at word-detective.com
http://www.word-detective.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 02:06:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:06:15 EST
Subject: "OK" sign in American Restaurant Magazine
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.210615.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"OK" SIGN (continued)

   I've read AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE up until the end of the 1930s (boy,
was it dull), then read 1948-1961.  I recently requested 1945-1947 from the
annex.  The successor magazine, FOOD & LODGING HOSPITALITY, was requested
from the annex for the years 1962-1967, but seems to be missing entirely.

January 1948, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 2.  Ad for "le guot" food
line from Fearn Laboratories shows that the chef "OK" on their food labels
existed at this time.

January 1948, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 5.  Ad for S. Blickman, Inc.,
line of food service equipment shows two diners giving the "OK" sign.

May 1949, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 63.  Ad for Ac'cent food enhancer
shows a chef giving the "OK" sign.  "Ac'cent is 99+% pure MSG...mono sodium
glutamate, in crystal form, made from the amino acid, glutamic acid, which
occurs naturally in all vegetable and animal protein."

November 1950, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 60.  Ad for Norbest Turkey
Growers' Assn. shows a chef giving the "OK" sign.

December 1950, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 78, col. 1.  An ad for
Louisiana Golden Yams shows a chef giving the "OK" sign.

November 1951, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 110, col. 3.  An ad for
American Restaurant Magazine's books on Menu & Sandwich Magic shows a chef
giving the "OK" sign.

February 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 103, col. 1.  An ad for 3V
Papaya Meat Tenderizer shows a chef giving the "OK" sign.

March 1953, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 76, col. 1.  An ad for Tabasco
sauce shows a chef giving the "OK" sign.

September 1953, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 120.  Another Ac'cent ad
shows a chef giving the "OK" sign in two panels.

--------------------------------------------------------
COFFEE BREAK (continued)

April 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pages 82-83.  "This is a
coffee-break!"  The ad by the Pan-American Coffee Bureau states: "What is the
Coffee-Break?  It's the theme of the Pan-American Coffee Bureau's most
ambitious promotion in history."  Ads were placed in LIFE, SATURDAY EVENING
POST, LADIES' HOME JOURNAL, WOMAN'S HOME COMPANION, McCALL'S, GOOD
HOUSEKEEPING, Sunday newspaper supplements, and on 119 radio stations.

November 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 118.  The Pan-American
Coffee Bureau's ad states: "In offices and factories--the 'coffee-break'
means new business!"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 02:30:28 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:30:28 EST
Subject: Submarines, curly fries & more
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.213028.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Some items from AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE.

--------------------------------------------------------
SUBMARINE

   OED has 1955 for the submarine sandwich.  DARE promises a map for
"submarine" when that volume is published.

September 1951, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 44, col. 1.  A story about
Jordan's, 1356 W. North Avenue, Baltimore, Maryland.  A print ad reads:
"...submarine sandwiches or what-have-you."  Another Jordan's print ad on pg.
45, col. 1:  "Submarine Sandwich (a meal on a roll)...50."

--------------------------------------------------------
CURLY FRIES

October 1951, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 156, col. 1.  An ad for
Stringmaster Potato Cutter, 656 N. Cahuenga Blvd., Los Angeles, Calif.  The
Stringmaster is shown "making several quick, delicious servings of golden
brown Crispy Q's."

October 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 124, col. 1.  Another ad for
the Stringmaster Potato Cutter:  "bring on those 'Curly' FRENCH FRIES!"

--------------------------------------------------------
DOGGIE BAG (continued)

   From AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, September 1952, pg. 164, col. 2:

IT'S A PLEASURE
to hand this beautiful
_DOGGIE PAK_
to your patrons
TO TAKE HOME BONES FOR THEIR DOG
Sturdy, holds large steak bones.  Printed in three colors.  You must see
this, it's the kind of advertising they will talk about.  It's class.
YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS ON EVERY PAK
_DOGGIE PAK CO._ 600 South Michigan Blvd., Chicago 5, Ill.

--------------------------------------------------------
SOUP'S ON

February 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 50.  "Soup's On" is the
title of an article about soup.

November 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 67.  An ad for SOUP'S ON, a
soup line by Universal Foods Corp., 3003 W. Carroll Ave., Chicago 12,
Illinois.

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

September 1951, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 124, col. 2.  Three recipes
for "TOASTWICHES."

September 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 139, col. 1.  Cartoon of a
chef speaking to a customer at his Maw's Grill.  "You finish your vegetables
young man, or you don't get any dessert."

September 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pages 44-45.  The article is
titled "$howman$hip $ell$."  See Marvin Kitman's recent review in NY NEWSDAY
of a new tv show about Wall Street called "The $treet."  It think he said
that it "$tink$."


From Amcolph at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 13:41:38 2000
From: Amcolph at AOL.COM (Ray Ott)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 08:41:38 EST
Subject: Chads from the Past
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.084138.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's a clue!  What was the original Hollerith's first name?

Ray Ott


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Nov 21 14:10:38 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:10:38 -0500
Subject: Chads from the Past
In-Reply-To: <86.32ff322.274bd592@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.091038.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>There's a clue!  What was the original Hollerith's first name?

Herman.

Did he have children? I.e., any chips off the old card?

-- Doug Wilson


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Tue Nov 21 15:25:42 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:25:42 -0500
Subject: important new title
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.102542.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In case you missed Allan Metcalf's modest reference to his new book that he
included in an earlier message, I post this announcement of his book.

I have seen repeated inquiries on this listserve for a book of this nature,
so it seems to address a real need among members  teaching classes on
American English.

Joe Pickett



If you are looking for an inexpensive book on American Regional English
that contains the latest scholarship but is written for a popular audience,
look no further.

Announcing


               How We Talk: American Regional English Today

                             by Allan Metcalf
                (Professor of English at MacMurray College
         and Executive Secretary of the American Dialect Society)

(Houghton Mifflin Company, 2000)
208 pages
cloth ISBN 0-618-04363-2   $24.00
paperback ISBN 0-618-04362-4   $14.00


Allan Metcalf takes us on a tour of American English, beginning in the
South, home of the most easily recognized of American dialects, and
traveling north to New England, west to the Midwest, and on to the far
West, including Alaska and Hawaii. Along the way the author examines such
phenomena as Louisiana Cajun and New Orleans Yat, Appalachian
pronunciations and vocabulary, New York talk, "dahntahn" Pittsburgh,
"Bawlmerese," the Northern Cities Shift, the Northern Midwest "Fargo"
accent, California Surfer Slang, and much much more.

How We Talk also has a historical introduction, a chapter on ethnic
dialects, and a chapter on dialects in the movies.

How We Talk is a sustained celebration of the language Americans all know
and don't understand. Written in a witty and engaging style, the book is
ideally suited for students with little or no linguistic training.

Even the proofreader said it was hard to put down.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 16:21:06 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:21:06 EST
Subject: "might have done"
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.112106.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/27/2000 12:24:25 PM, gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM writes:

<< An interesting column from the Guardian regarding reader complaints about
usage.

"Readers who believe that the Guardian should be written in decent English
pursue their cause relentlessly... Readers who have this condition in its
advanced stages not only notice the particular thing that annoys them
whenever it occurs. They notice it, with a little leap of delight, when it
does not occur but might have done."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,385712,00.html

I should also say that, as usual, the "might have done" cries out to me as
odd. I would either end the sentence at "have" or add suffix a "so." >>

I published an article or two on this British neologism a number of years
ago. It seems to have come into popularity in "cultivated" circles in
southern England between the two world wars. Before that, it was decidely
declasse--rural and working-class in the 19th century. An interesting bit of
data is that E. Waugh in his novel BRIDESHEAD REVISITED did not use the
construction; however, when the book was made into a television series, the
screenwriters changed at least one of the might have's to a might have done!

Some Americans seem to have borrowed the neologism, but not many.

See:

"Syntactic Change in British English 'Propredicates,' " Journal of English
Linguistics 16 (1983), 1-7.

"American Instances of Propredicate do," Journal of English Linguistics 20.2
(1987), 212-16. [with Kazuo Kato, first author]


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 16:54:44 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:54:44 EST
Subject: Mary Sue, Murray Sue, Marty Sue
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.115444.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/20/2000 2:25:07 PM, jessie at SIRSI.COM writes:

<< Her name is often the author's name, be it a net.name, a

favored nickname, or the author's middle name (this is seen in the most

famous Mary Sue of all time, Wesley Crusher, who was named after Trek

creator Eugene Wesley Roddenbery). By the end of the story, Mary Sue will be

in bed with the desired character, will have beamed away amid cheers from

all the regulars, or will be dead, usually accompanied by heavy mourning

from the cast. >>

Please tell me the episode in which Wesley Crusher ends up in bed with Capt.
Picard! Was this before or after the boy left for the Academy?


From mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU  Tue Nov 21 17:05:55 2000
From: mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:05:55 -0500
Subject: "might have done"
In-Reply-To: <c4.c00b02b.274bfaf2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.120555.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> I published an article or two on this British neologism a number of years
> ago. It seems to have come into popularity in "cultivated" circles in
> southern England between the two world wars. Before that, it was decidely
> declasse--rural and working-class in the 19th century. An interesting bit of

Interesting. This really adds to my appreciation of the episode of the
britcom "Are You Being Served" in which Mr. Lucas tells the story of how
he got caught in a young woman's apartment and tried to pass for a TV
repairman (i.e. a legitimate visitor) by picking up the TV and starting to
leave the apartment with it. "Did you get away with it?" Mr. Humphries
asks, intrigued. "I might have done, if I'd had me pants on," Lucas
explains. Maybe "might have done" here is intended as humorous
hypercorrection.

-Mai
_____________________________________________
Mai Kuha                  mkuha at bsuvc.bsu.edu
Department of English     (765) 285-8410
Ball State University


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Nov 21 17:31:39 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:31:39 +0000
Subject: "might have done"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.96.1001121115915.554109677D-100000@BSUVC.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.173139.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>>  I published an article or two on this British neologism a number of years
>>  ago. It seems to have come into popularity in "cultivated" circles in
>>  southern England between the two world wars. Before that, it was decidely
>>  declasse--rural and working-class in the 19th century. An interesting bit of

Mai Kuha says:

>Interesting. This really adds to my appreciation of the episode of the
>britcom "Are You Being Served" in which Mr. Lucas tells the story of how
>he got caught in a young woman's apartment and tried to pass for a TV
>repairman (i.e. a legitimate visitor) by picking up the TV and starting to
>leave the apartment with it. "Did you get away with it?" Mr. Humphries
>asks, intrigued. "I might have done, if I'd had me pants on," Lucas
>explains. Maybe "might have done" here is intended as humorous
hypercorrection.

I doubt the writers intended it to be perceived as hypercorrection.
These days, everyone says "might have done" (or "could have done" or
whatever).  (It could equally have been his working-class roots
showing through.)

Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 17:31:52 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:31:52 EST
Subject: "chad"-- a possible origin
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.123152.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

gee, I always thought that a CHAD was just a little SHARD of paper with the
vowel+R pronounced in the New York way


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 17:39:35 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:39:35 EST
Subject: "might have done"
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.123935.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/21/2000 12:10:11 PM, mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU writes:

<< Interesting. This really adds to my appreciation of the episode of the
britcom "Are You Being Served" in which Mr. Lucas tells the story of how
he got caught in a young woman's apartment and tried to pass for a TV
repairman (i.e. a legitimate visitor) by picking up the TV and starting to
leave the apartment with it. "Did you get away with it?" Mr. Humphries
asks, intrigued. "I might have done, if I'd had me pants on," Lucas
explains. Maybe "might have done" here is intended as humorous
hypercorrection. >>

I wouldn't see it as hypercorrection at all--I doubt that the script writers
even knew that "might have done" was anything but the normal way of saying
it. Which it is for Brits under the age of 120.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov 21 05:28:48 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:28:48 +0800
Subject: "chad"-- a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <c1.8ef3bb8.274c0b88@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.132848.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>gee, I always thought that a CHAD was just a little SHARD of paper with the
>vowel+R pronounced in the New York way

Boston would be a bit closer...


From mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU  Tue Nov 21 18:59:23 2000
From: mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:59:23 -0500
Subject: "might have done"
In-Reply-To: <16.536c3bc.274c0d57@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.135923.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> In a message dated 11/21/2000 12:10:11 PM, mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU writes:
>
> << Interesting. This really adds to my appreciation of the episode of the
> britcom "Are You Being Served" ...
> ..."I might have done, if I'd had me pants on," Lucas
> explains. Maybe "might have done" here is intended as humorous
> hypercorrection. >>

On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
> I wouldn't see it as hypercorrection at all--I doubt that the script writers
> even knew that "might have done" was anything but the normal way of saying
> it. Which it is for Brits under the age of 120.

Oh, OK. I thought in your earlier message you meant that it still was a
sign of "cultivated" speech.
mk
_____________________________________________
Mai Kuha                  mkuha at bsuvc.bsu.edu
Department of English     (765) 285-8410
Ball State University


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 19:10:53 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:10:53 EST
Subject: "might have done"
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.141053.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/21/2000 2:03:12 PM, mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU writes:

<< > I wouldn't see it as hypercorrection at all--I doubt that the script
writers
> even knew that "might have done" was anything but the normal way of saying
> it. Which it is for Brits under the age of 120.

Oh, OK. I thought in your earlier message you meant that it still was a
sign of "cultivated" speech.
mk >>

I guess that I'm assuming that all of the characters on AYBS are speakers of
"cultivated" English, broadly speaking--i.e., they are not blue-collar nor
are they rural. But in fact I suspect that "might have done" is the normal
form for pretty much everyone in London today. What I meant was that, prior
to World War I, "might have done" was the accepted form among "cultivated"
speakers but maybe not among rurals and blue-collars. In other words, "might
have done" spread into the urban middle classes and above from outside.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 19:16:20 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:16:20 EST
Subject: CHAD,SHARD&CHARRED in NYC speech?
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.141620.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/21/2000 1:27:40 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

<< >gee, I always thought that a CHAD was just a little SHARD of paper with
the
>vowel+R pronounced in the New York way

Boston would be a bit closer... >>

True, though in 1947 NYC was even more of an r-dropping region than it is
now. But wouldn't SHARD even today bew pronounced (variably) as r-less and
with a fronted and raised vowel in working-class white neighborhoods in NYC?
So that CHARRED and SHARD would be virtually the same, and the same as CHAD
except for the absence of the initial brief [t] in SHARD?


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov 21 06:45:49 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:45:49 +0800
Subject: CHAD,SHARD&CHARRED in NYC speech?
In-Reply-To: <5a.d4a2ea3.274c2404@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.144549.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In a message dated 11/21/2000 1:27:40 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
><< >gee, I always thought that a CHAD was just a little SHARD of paper with
>the
>>vowel+R pronounced in the New York way
>
>Boston would be a bit closer... >>
>
>True, though in 1947 NYC was even more of an r-dropping region than it is
>now. But wouldn't SHARD even today bew pronounced (variably) as r-less and
>with a fronted and raised vowel in working-class white neighborhoods in NYC?
>So that CHARRED and SHARD would be virtually the same, and the same as CHAD
>except for the absence of the initial brief [t] in SHARD?

Actually, I was alluding not to the degree of non-rhoticity, but to
its consequences.  The vowel of "shard" or "chard" or "card" in New
York is nowhere near that of "chad", regardless of whether the
pronunciation is or isn't rhotic.  The non-rhotic version of "chard"
is essentially [chA:d], where A is the script a, relatively back; it
more or less rhymes with "odd" or "cod", but the vowel is a bit
longer.  The non-rhotic version of one Bostonian pronunciation of
"chard" would be much closer to "chad", with a slightly elongated
diagraph.

Larry


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 21 20:58:51 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:58:51 -0600
Subject: CHAD,SHARD&CHARRED in NYC speech?
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.145851.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've been thinking about this one too. A search of the MIT Library might be
in order. 'Shard' is a reasonably exact description of a punchcard chad.

I also wonder what happens to the /d sh/ combination in 'card shard' when
said rapidly in a non-rhotic accent.

>Actually, I was alluding not to the degree of non-rhoticity, but to
>its consequences.  The vowel of "shard" or "chard" or "card" in New
>York is nowhere near that of "chad", regardless of whether the
>pronunciation is or isn't rhotic.  The non-rhotic version of "chard"
>is essentially [chA:d], where A is the script a, relatively back; it
>more or less rhymes with "odd" or "cod", but the vowel is a bit
>longer.  The non-rhotic version of one Bostonian pronunciation of
>"chard" would be much closer to "chad", with a slightly elongated
>diagraph.
>
>Larry

_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov 21 22:04:04 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:04:04 -0500
Subject: Chad Research
In-Reply-To: <F148xvq7t2JIsNZfccW00000ff2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.170404.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For those of you who are eagerly awaiting more findings in the Great Chad
Quest, I have checked the original source of the 1947 Merriam-Webster
citation.  The context does not, alas, shed any further light on the
etymological question.  The one thing I glean from examining the original
article in the RCA Review is that the milieu of this earliest known usage
is not computers, but rather radiotelegraphy.  (The second oldest source,
the 1959 cite in the OED Addition Series, is also from a telegraphy
source.)

I also looked for other articles mentioning "chad" in the RCA Review and
other engineering journals from the late 1940s, but found nothing.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 22 00:36:33 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 19:36:33 EST
Subject: All that jazz
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.193633.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For the latest definitive word on the origins of the ADS Word of the Century,
get your copy of the November-December 2000 issue of Gerald Cohen's _Comments
on Etymology_. Seventy-two pages of citations and commentary on the early
days of jazz! by Cohen and our indefatigable Barry Popik.

The only way you can get this indispensable publication is to apply to the
editor & publisher: Gerald Cohen, Dept of Applied Arts and Cultural Studies,
U of Missouri-Rolla, Rolla Missouri 65401. Individuals may subscribe for $14
a year, institutions for $18. I don't know about single copies, but anyone
concerned about word origins will want to subscribe. - Allan Metcalf


From Davidhwaet at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 22 04:49:22 2000
From: Davidhwaet at AOL.COM (Davidhwaet at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:49:22 EST
Subject: CHAD,SHARD&CHARRED in NYC speech?
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.234922.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Boston  "charred"  among common speakers (non-Brahmin)  is somewhat close
to "chad"  to those speakers unfamiliar with Boston speech. The vowel of
"charred" is the lower low front [a] , almost identical to the monophthonged
Southern [aI] which Natalie Maynor has provided for us on her website.  The
digraph [ae] of "chad" is clearly distinct from the [a] of non-rhotic
"charred".  The vowel we don't have in Boston speech is the script <a> or the
low central unrounded vowel.

Dave

David R. Carlson
Amherst MA  (Formerly from Norwood MA, 14 miles South and a little West of
Fenway Park)


From jessie at SIRSI.COM  Wed Nov 22 21:58:46 2000
From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:58:46 -0600
Subject: mong, Dreamcast
Message-ID: <WED.22.NOV.2000.155846.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

About British slang, but still an interesting bit from a CNN article:
---
The best thing about these stories might be that they're so palpably
happening now: They get the slang, the profanity, the brands, the computers
and the TV just right. (The delightful Briticism "mong," as in "to mong out
in front of the TV," occurs more than once.) Much of the action of Tony
White's "Poet" occurs within the confines of an Excel document, and Matthew
Branton's "Monkey See" gets some zing from its intimate familiarity with the
mechanics of downloading digital porn. Scarlett Thomas' "Mind Control" may
contain the first literary use of the word "Dreamcast" in history. If your
Dreamcast is as important to you as mine is to me, that's a landmark right
there.
---
The whole thing can be read here:

http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/news/11/22/salon.manifesto/index.html

Jessie Emerson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 22 22:35:38 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:35:38 EST
Subject: Smell Test
Message-ID: <WED.22.NOV.2000.173538.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Mike Barnicle (lately of the NY Daily News, formerly of the Boston Globe)
said that certain stuff in Florida had to pass the "smell test."  (That is,
does it stink?)  A few commentators picked up on "smell test."  I don't know
what smell tests Fred Shapiro has.
   May all your Thanksgiving smell tests be happy ones!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 22 22:56:12 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:56:12 EST
Subject: Petabits; V-commerce; Smart Tires
Message-ID: <WED.22.NOV.2000.175612.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 22 November 2000, pg. A19, col. 5:

_Montreal Start-Up Plans_
_For a World of "Petabits"_
(...)
   Hyperchip is betting its future on its conviction that the world will need
an Internet network router measuring its capacity in petabits.  A petabit is
1,000 trillion bits of data per second, 1,000 times faster than a mere
terabit.
(...)
_E-commerce will become "v-commerce," in which shoppers use video to browse
through items._

(Video commerce...This "petabit" thing sound like it really gets the fur
flying--ed.)

   From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 22 November 2000, pg. B1, col. 2:

_Firestone Recall Fuels Interest in "Smart" Tires_
_Wheels That Self-Inflate, Run While Flat Are Getting Boost; One Might Even
Call Driver_


From nyinstitute at VIABCP.COM  Thu Nov 23 02:03:25 2000
From: nyinstitute at VIABCP.COM (nyinstitute)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:03:25 -0500
Subject: Smell Test
Message-ID: <WED.22.NOV.2000.210325.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

for at least twenty years that I know of, both accountants and lawyers used
a smell test in regard to tax shelters and other types of maneuvers.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 5:35 PM
Subject: Smell Test


>    Mike Barnicle (lately of the NY Daily News, formerly of the Boston
Globe)
> said that certain stuff in Florida had to pass the "smell test."  (That
is,
> does it stink?)  A few commentators picked up on "smell test."  I don't
know
> what smell tests Fred Shapiro has.
>    May all your Thanksgiving smell tests be happy ones!
>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 23 01:53:16 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:53:16 EST
Subject: Past-Subjunctive WAS in counter-to-fact IF clauses
Message-ID: <WED.22.NOV.2000.205316.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It has been a long time since this thread died, but I am only just reading my
e-mail from late October, and I'm wondering if there isn't another way
looking at this.

Isn't it the case that, in counter-to-fact if-clauses, the prescriptive rule
allows the subjunctive BE?  An alternative second HAD BEEN might also be
grammatically acceptable, but its repetitiousness is something to avoid if
possible.

Then, assuming that BE is correct, WAS, the past subjunctive of BE, is also
preferable to WERE.

In other words, the Brits got it right.
--------------------------------------------
Rudy <rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU> wrote, concerning the sentence

       "The roof of one carriage had been peeled off as if it was a
sardine can."

<<My colleague was shocked by the inappropriate use of the past "was"
instead of the proper irrealis sequence-of-tense past perfect "had been".
What's British English coming to?>>


In a message dated 10/28/2000 6:46:52 PM, highbob at MINDSPRING.COM answered:

<< I caught that last one, too, Rudy.  But couldn't one also have used the
subjunctive "were"?  I think that's what I would have done, had I been in a
situation with sufficient time to proof, or if I weren't in a rush.  In
conversation, I'd uh probably said the exact same thing.

bob
 >>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 23 15:55:50 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:55:50 EST
Subject: Revival: someone/somebody
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.105550.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/29/2000 11:20:34 PM, joh.wood at ASU.EDU writes:

<< Quirk et al. (1985) and Jespersen

(1914) claim -body and -one compounds are identical in meaning although

Bolinger (1976) "argues that there is a subtle difference in meaning between

the series, ONE and its compounds being marked for closeness to the speaker

and individualization, whereas BODY is unmarked in these senses." >>

This makes sense to me, and here is a bit of evidence. There is an old song
with the key line

Somebody loves me--I wonder who?

The irony of the second part of the sentence is based upon the disambiguation
of SOMEBODY in approximately the sense that Bologna suggests, i.e., SOMEBODY
can either be a "real" person that the speaker has in mind ('close') or a
hypothetical person that the speaker has faith exists (not 'close'). The
other version of the line

?Someone loves me--I wonder who?

doesn't work, and the problem is not merely metrical: SOMEONE implies that
the speaker has in mind a real person, and the second half of the line
contradicts this, making the utterance not merely ironic but semantically
anomalous.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Nov 23 15:33:44 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:33:44 -0500
Subject: Revival: someone/somebody
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.103344.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RonButters at AOL.COM,Net writes:
><< Quirk et al. (1985) and Jespersen
>(1914) claim -body and -one compounds are identical in meaning although
>Bolinger (1976) "argues that there is a subtle difference in meaning
>between
>the series, ONE and its compounds being marked for closeness to the
>speaker
>and individualization, whereas BODY is unmarked in these senses." >>

Very interesting, Ron.  The dictionaries (W3, RU2, WBD, and OED) all
show general equivalency.  It might be instructive to look over the
examples in OED to test this "new" observation.

Regards,
David Barnhart

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Nov 23 17:58:02 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:58:02 +0000
Subject: Florida fatigue
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.175802.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Multiple use of 'Florida(-)fatigue' at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/monitoring/media_reports/newsid_1037000/1037327.stm

Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Thu Nov 23 18:56:36 2000
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 13:56:36 -0500
Subject: chad cartoons
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.135636.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

-- http://cagle.slate.msn.com/2000/chad/
___________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl                 einstein at frognet.net     tel: (740)
592-1617
          home page:  http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Nov 23 19:14:44 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 14:14:44 -0500
Subject: Revival: someone/somebody
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.141444.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ron, has the subject of anyone~anybody been addressed.  I wonder if no
one and nobody exhibit the same interpretation.

Regards,
David Barnhart

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 23 21:40:42 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:40:42 EST
Subject: Random gobblets
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.164042.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Happy Thanksgiving.  What's left of the family is here, there's turkey,
wine, I'm sharing financial statements with my sister, outlining my December
vacation, and, of course, there's a computer here.  Thanksgiving just
wouldn't be Thanksgiving without the Internet.
   Some stuff I haven't posted:

AUTHOR!  AUTHOR!--The first cite I have is THE WRITER, January 1934, pg. 1,
"Author!  Author!" by Joseph Tuckerman Day.

CHICKEN KIEV--Another early Chicago citation is THE PALMER HOUSE COOK BOOK
(1940), by Ernest E. Amiet, John Willy, Inc. for the Hotel Monthly Press,
"Chicken a la Kiev," pg. 1028.

CABARET--From the RESTAURATEUR & AMERICAN HOTELIER, 25 January 1930,
"Churchill, Famous Restaurateur, Is Dead," pg. 19, col. 1:  "In his
restaurants was originated the cabaret, and Captain Churchill paid as high as
$3,000 a week to his entertainers.

WINDY CITY/CITY OF THE WINDS--From AT HOME IN ITALY (1884), by Mrs. E. D. R.
Bianciardi, Houghton, Mifflin & Co., pg. 122:  "It is called 'The City of the
Winds'..."  (Siena, Italy--ed.)


From info at PAZYCOOPERACION.ORG  Thu Nov 23 21:56:38 2000
From: info at PAZYCOOPERACION.ORG (Paz y Cooperacion)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:56:38 -0500
Subject: Nos Estamos Renovando
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.165638.0500.>

***** This is an HTML Message ! *****

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20001123/a95401e1/attachment.html>

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 23 23:41:18 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:41:18 EST
Subject: Prince Albert & King George
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.184118.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Today's New York Post has used "Prince Albert" for Al Gore and "King
George" for George Bush.  "Florida Fiasco" has been used a lot.  "Gore Loser"
and "Gore-Loserman" have been on the signs for Bush supporters.

FAME JUNKIES--"'Fame junkie' stars have psych woes, shrink says" is in
today's NEW YORK POST, 23 November 2000, pg. 14, cols. 2-4.  It's about
celebrities who sell wedding photos and stuff to constantly be in the
magazines and newspapers.  "Fame junkie" has been used for people who are
_not_ stars.

STOVE-PIPE ORGANIZATION--Today's Word-Spy WOTD.  I haven't checked on JSTOR,
but I remember this from the 1970s.  I think it was coined by Peter Drucker.


From Amcolph at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 24 04:01:05 2000
From: Amcolph at AOL.COM (Ray Ott)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:01:05 EST
Subject: Prince Albert & King George
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.230105.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Al Gore has been known by some as "Prince Albert" since he was in the
Senate--being the son of a senator and somewhat stodgy.

Ray Ott


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Fri Nov 24 10:51:24 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:51:24 +0100
Subject: Numbers
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.115124.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

Numbers from 1 to 10 in more than 4500 languages.

http://www.zompist.com/numbers.shtml


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Nov 24 11:02:34 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:02:34 +0000
Subject: Fwd: Re: our appointment
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.110234.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think someone on this list recently mentioned the countability of
'e-mail' (in the discussion of the countability of 'chad').  I just
got the following message from a (British) student, and the use of
'e-mails' struck me as something I would never do--but I think my Dad
might do it as well.  (Although Dad usually says "I'll see if I've
gotten any faxes"  And I say "You mean 'e-mail'."  And he says
"Right.")

>Hello Lynne
>
>I've just checked my e-mails, I'll be over at 11:30 if that's okay with
>you.


Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Nov 24 11:46:26 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:46:26 +0000
Subject: Revival: someone/somebody
In-Reply-To: <16.54f0e51.274e9806@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.114626.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks very much to Ron for remembering my query about
somebody/someone, etc.  This info is super-helpful.  I'd had a
suspicion that Bolinger would have tackled this.

Ron said:
>
>The irony of the second part of the sentence is based upon the disambiguation
>of SOMEBODY in approximately the sense that Bologna suggests, i.e., SOMEBODY
>can either be a "real" person that the speaker has in mind ('close') or a
>hypothetical person that the speaker has faith exists (not 'close'). The
>other version of the line

My question:  Does everyone call him Bologna? (or does everybody?)
Never heard that one before...

Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 24 15:28:02 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:28:02 EST
Subject: spell-checker mischief
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.102802.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/24/2000 6:46:57 AM, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes:

<< I'd had a
suspicion that Bolinger would have tackled this.

Ron said:
>
>The irony of the second part of the sentence is based upon the disambiguation
>of SOMEBODY in approximately the sense that Bologna suggests >>

Hee-hee: Tom P was right! Look what my AOL spell-checker did to "Bolinger"!
Not quite as bad as what it wants to do with Fromkin and Rodman (reported
here some time ago, i.e., AOL suggests that "Fromkin" be changed to
:Foreskin").


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 24 15:37:12 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:37:12 EST
Subject: no one/no body
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.103712.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/23/2000 3:26:04 PM, ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM writes:

<< I wonder if no
one and nobody exhibit the same interpretation >>

Offhand I'd guess "no"--but I haven't read the Bolinger article.

Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?
Will nobody rid me of this meddlesome priest?

No one knows the trouble I've seen.
Nobody knows the trouble I've seen.

I ain't got nobody, and nobody cares for me.
I ain't got no one, and no one cares for me.

The only difference I can discern here is formality: "I ain't got no one"
sounds like mixed registers to me. If the "somebody/someone" difference
really is what Bolinger says it is, it makes sense that the semantic
difference would not carry over to the negative, since the closeness of that
which does not exist seems a sort of contradiction in terms or at least
virtually irrelevant. Well, I guess I could see a slight potential difference
between "Will none of y'all rid me of this meddlesome priest?" and "Will no
person in the world rid me of this meddlesome priest?"--but NOBODY/NO ONE
does not, for me, convey that distinction.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Nov 24 16:17:13 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:17:13 -0500
Subject: spell-checker mischief
In-Reply-To: <51.3eb5826.274fe302@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.111713.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

YES, I SENT A MESSAGE TPO RALPH FASOLD ONCE WHICH SUGGESTED HE WAS "FIZZLED."
Damn things!

dInIs

>In a message dated 11/24/2000 6:46:57 AM, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes:
>
><< I'd had a
>suspicion that Bolinger would have tackled this.
>
>Ron said:
>>
>>The irony of the second part of the sentence is based upon the disambiguation
>>of SOMEBODY in approximately the sense that Bologna suggests >>
>
>Hee-hee: Tom P was right! Look what my AOL spell-checker did to "Bolinger"!
>Not quite as bad as what it wants to do with Fromkin and Rodman (reported
>here some time ago, i.e., AOL suggests that "Fromkin" be changed to
>:Foreskin").


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From faber at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 24 16:35:10 2000
From: faber at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:35:10 -0500
Subject: spell-checker mischief
In-Reply-To: <l03130301b64444e180a6@[35.9.48.52]>
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.113510.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis R. Preston said:
>YES, I SENT A MESSAGE TPO RALPH FASOLD ONCE WHICH SUGGESTED HE WAS "FIZZLED."
>Damn things!

Somewhere in my desk, I have a list I made after sending the entire
bibliography for a paper I was working on through the MSWord spell-checker.
The overall effect was quite comical...I wish I knew where that is.
--
Alice Faber                                       tel. (203) 865-6163
Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
270 Crown St                                   faber at haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511                               afaber at wesleyan.edu


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Nov 24 16:37:53 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 08:37:53 -0800
Subject: spell-checker mischief
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.083753.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ZWICKY is, of course, a trial for spell-checkers.  the french
edition of MSWord just gives up and signals "Mot Inconnu" -
which i have now taken as one of my (many) aliases.

ebbing craft / rice highland / etc. (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 24 21:00:39 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 16:00:39 EST
Subject: spell-checker mischief
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.160039.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/24/00 11:48:19 AM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes:

<< ZWICKY is, of course, a trial for spell-checkers.  the french
edition of MSWord just gives up and signals "Mot Inconnu" -
which i have now taken as one of my (many) aliases.

ebbing craft / rice highland / etc. (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) >>

AOL says "no suggestions" for ZWICKY


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 25 01:52:12 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:52:12 EST
Subject: Naked Lady Party
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.205212.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NAKED LADY PARTY

   Oh, I'll do anything to increase readership.
   But seriously, from the NEW YORK OBSERVER, 27 November 2000, pg. 5, col. 1:

KIMBERLY STEVENS
_Bitch 'n' Swap?_
_The _Real_ Story_
_Is Laid Bare_
(...)  I left a message on my friend Erin's machine. She was the original
co-founder of the Bitch 'n' Swap, whichstarted about six years ago in a tiny
Upper West Side apartment I shared with my sister.  I had two giant bags
after a major closet clean-out and figured all my friends probably had old
clothes they wanted to get rid of.  My friend Erin thought it would be cool
to have an organized bitch session.  "We'll get together and swap our old
things and bitch and drink wine allafternoon.  We'll call it a bitch 'n'
swap,"she said.  (...) But in_Mademoiselle_, the idea was attributed to some
woman out in California who called them "Naked Lady Parties," because
everyone gets naked while they try on clothes.  Bull. (...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
DAVID SHULMAN

    Shulman tells me has a "What's the damage?" (inspecting a restaurant
bill) from the 1840s and a "Long time no see" from the 1880s.  He plans to
interrupt my chad search tomorrow in the NYPL.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
QUICHE

   Another citation is G.Selmer Fougner's ALONG THE WINE TRAIL (1930s), part
IV, pg. 71:

     _Croustade de Quiche Lorraine_
   Cheese custard with diced fried bacon, chopped onions, chives and parsley.
 Bake in crust.


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Sat Nov 25 15:54:33 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 16:54:33 +0100
Subject: American Heritage Dictionary
Message-ID: <SAT.25.NOV.2000.165433.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

A while back we talked about the dearth of dictionary reviews in American
newspapers. Well, here's one in the Times of the fourth edition of Houghton Miffilin's American
Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.

http://partners.nytimes.com/2000/11/25/arts/25SHEL.html

"In the fourth edition of the American Heritage Dictionary, ... multiple points of
view are proffered and the authority of the past is rejected along with the privileged
position of written poetry and prose. This edition is the climax of several decades
of lexicographical evolution. Though many authorities are consulted for this
dictionary, the ultimate authority is the ordinary person's ordinary speech. Nothing is
absolutely correct; nothing is ever incorrect. It is just a matter of who uses a word and
why."


From mdkgottlieb at YAHOO.COM  Sun Nov 26 00:26:56 2000
From: mdkgottlieb at YAHOO.COM (Michael Gottlieb)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 16:26:56 -0800
Subject: Crazy Bone
Message-ID: <SAT.25.NOV.2000.162656.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This evening's 500 pound question on England's version
of _Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?_ was, "Which of
these is called the 'crazy bone' in the USA?"  The
answer was the 'funny bone.'  Does anyone know in what
regions 'crazy bone' is commonly used?  Or have the
Brits got it wrong?

Mike Gottlieb
University College London


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 26 01:07:54 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:07:54 EST
Subject: O.K.; Take-Out; Heroes
Message-ID: <SAT.25.NOV.2000.200754.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

O.K. SIGN (continued)

February 1945, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 6, col. 1.  An ad for
Blakeslee Built Kitchen Machines shows a chef giving the "OK" sign.

February 1945, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 7.  An ad for "Le Gout"
chicken soup base seasoning has the now-familiar "OK-sign" chef on the label.

April 1945, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 39.  An ad for "Le Gout" shows
a photograph of the master chef himself.  He kisses the circle in his fingers.

June 1945, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 3.  An ad for Groetchen
Manufacturing Company of Chicago shows a chef giving something similar to the
"OK" sign, but his first two fingers don't quite form a perfect "O."

--------------------------------------------------------
LIGHT BULB=IDEA

December 1945, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 75.  An ad for Golden State
Sales Corporation shows a chef thinking.  A cloud features a light bulb with
the text: "Encourage your CHEF'S BRIGHT IDEA."

--------------------------------------------------------
TAKE-OUT

   OED has the 1940s and later for "take-out"/"take-away" food.
   AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, July 1947, pg. 31, has a story about Alpheus
D. Spiller's "Spiller's" of York Beach, Maine.  It began in 1938.  Pg. 31,
col. 2: "That first year the Spillers sold only fried clams, fried potatoes
and potato chips to take out.  In 1939, they added hot dogs and hamburgers to
their list and business continued to flourish."
   Pg. 32, col. 1, shows Spiller's signs for 1938 and 1939.
   1938 sign:
SPILLER'S
"TAKE-OUT"
FRIED CLAMS
FRENCH FRIES
POTATO CHIPS

   1939 sign:
SPILLER'S
"TAKE-OUT"
FRIED CLAMS
FRENCH FRIES
HAMBURGERS
FRANKFURTS

--------------------------------------------------------
HEROES (continued)

   From SEPIA, November 1966, pg. 39, col. 1:

_Six-Foot_
_Sandwich_
_Hats off to the "Hero" of my heart and my stomach!_
(...)  In his place of business, James (Dellorto, Manganaro's Restaurant, 429
Ninth Avenue, NYC) has smaller versions of what New Yorkers call a "Hero"
sandwich."
(...)  A "Hero" is a piece of Italian bread, in which are special sandwich
ingredients.  The (Pg. 40, col. 1) name "Hero" goes back a number of years
when a food columnist of a New York daily newspaper commented that "you have
to be a hero to eat such a generous piece of bakery."  The name stuck.
   Today, in New York, such sandwiches are known as "Heroes."  In New England
they are known as "Grinders."  In Philadelphia they are called "Hoagies" or
"Submarines."  (Col. 2--ed.)  In the Mid-West people call them "Poor Boys."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 26 02:05:23 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:05:23 EST
Subject: Chad enuffa dis? (continued)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.NOV.2000.210523.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

16 November 2000, WASHINGTON POST, pg. C1--Chad was this week suggested by
some members of the American Dialect Society for consideration as "word of
the year."  (Evan Morris interviewed--ed.)

20 November 2000, LOS ANGELES TIMES, pg. E1--In fact, the word is up for the
American Dialect Society's "word of the year"....  (Laurence Horn
interviewed, denies a Mr. Chadless--ed.)
   For assurance, we turn to the Oxford English Dictionary's Jesse
Sheidlower, principal editor of the North American division.  "Chad," he
sniffs, was already under consideration for inclusion before this brouhaha.

   Further sniffles:

1921--TECHNICAL TERMS.  BRIEF DEFINITIONS OF SOME OF THE THEORETICAL AND
PRACTICAL WORDS AND TERMS USED IN CONNECTION WITH TELEGRAPHY AND TELEPHONY
(Post Office Engineering Department, London).  No "chad."

1925--DICTIONARY OF TECHNOLOGICAL TERMS USED IN ELECTRICAL COMMUNICATION
(Verlag von Julius Springer, Berlin) by O. Sattelberg.  No "chad."

1969--STANDARD DICTIONARY OF COMPUTERS AND INFORMATION PROCESSING (Hayden
Book Co., NY) by Martin H. Weik, pg. 52:
_chad_--A piece of material removed from a paper tape, card, or other medium,
when forming a hole or notch in the medium for the purpose of storing or
recording data.  (Synonymous with _chip_ (2).)
_chadded tape_--See _tape, chadded_.
_chadless_--Pertaining to cards or tape in which each chad is left fastened
by about a quarter of the circumsference of the hole, usually at the leading
edge.  Chadless punching is useful where it is undesirable to destroy
information written or printed on the cards or tape or undesirable to produce
chad.  Only mechanical-feeler type reading mechanisms can be used to sense or
read chadless tape or cards, since the presence of a chadin the tape would
seriously hamper the reliable electrical or photoelectric reading of the
paper tape or (Col. 2--ed.) punched cards.  (Further clarified by _chad_.)
_chadless tape_--See _tape, chadless_.

1970--TECHNICAL DICTIONARY OF DATA PROCESSING-COMPUTERS-OFFICE MACHINES
(Pergamon Press, Berlin) by Dr. Erich Burger.
(English-French-German-Russian)  Pg. 59:
_chaded paper tape_
_chadless_
_chadless paper tape_
_chadless tape_
   semiperforated tape
_chads_ pl, chips pl

1970--FUNK & WAGNALL'S DICTIONARY OF DATA PROCESSING TERMS (Funk & Wagnalls,
NY) by Harold A. Rodgers, pg. 12, col. 2:
_chad_ n.  The fragment of material removed to form a punch in a storage
material, as tape or cards.
_chadded_ adj.  Indicating a punching operation performed on tape that
results in the production of chad.
_chadless_ adj.  Indicating a punching operation performed on tape that
results in the production of no chad.
_chadless tape_  Perforated tape from which the chad does not fully separate,
facilitating explanatory printing on the tape.
_chad tape_  FULLY PERFORATED TAPE.

1972--GLOSSARY OF COMPUTING TERMINOLOGY (CMM Information Corporation, NY) by
C. L. Meek, pg. 35, col. 1:
_chad_  A small piece of paper tape or punch card removed when punching a
hole to represent information. (Source is the 1962 Bureau of the Budget's
AUTOMATIC DATA PROCESSING GLOSSARY--ed.)
_chad_  The circular piece of paper removed from paper tape where a hole is
punched.  (Source is General Electric's undated GLOSSARY OF PROCESS COMPUTER
TERMS--ed.)
_chad tape_  _See_ fully perforated tape.  (Source is the undated IBM DATA
COMMUNICATIONS GLOSSARY--ed.)
_chadded tape_  Perforated tape, paper.  The chad completely removed.
(Source is the undated IBM GLOSSARY FOR INFORMATION PROCESSING--ed.)
_chadded paper tape_  _See_ tape, chadded paper.
_chadless_  A type of punching of paper tape in which each chad is left
fastened by about a quarter of the circumference of the hole, at the leading
edge.  This mode of punching is useful where it is undesirable to destroy
information written or printed on the punched tape or where it is undesirable
to produce chads.  Chadless punched paper tape must be sensed by mechanical
(Col. 2--ed.)fingers, for the presence of chad un the tape would interfere
with reliable electrical or photoelectric reading of the paper tape.
_chadless paper tape_  _See_ tape, chadless paper.
_chadless tape_  Perforated tape with the chad partially attached, to
facilitate interpretive printing on the tape.
_chadless tape_  Perforated tape with the chad partially removed.

1975--DICTIONARY OF DATA PROCESSING (Newnes-Butterworths, London) by Jeff
Maynard, pg. 28, col. 1:
_chad_  The piece of paper removed when a hole is punched in paper tape or a
punched card.
_chadded tape_  Paper tape punched in such a way that the CHADS are only
partially removed and remain attached to the tape.
_chadless tape_  Paper tape from which the CHADS have been completely
removed.  See also CHADDED TAPE.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 26 04:11:35 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 23:11:35 EST
Subject: Tell It Like It Is (1967)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.NOV.2000.231135.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TELL IT LIKE IT IS
by Chuck Stone
Trident Press, NY 1967
(Columns from NY AGE, WASHINGTON AFRO-AMERICAN, and CHICAGO DAILY DEFENDER
1959-1964--ed.)

Pg. i (Preface, 26 Aug. 1967)--Ignoring (and frequently offending)
middle-class "house Negroes" I was more concerned with "rapping" with the
true "soul brother" who understood so well that "the man" was "running a game
on them."

Pg. 10 (August 1964)--Let's--as Daddy-O Daylie says--"tell it like it t-i-s
tis."

Pg. 12 (August 1964)--"What's a backlash?" (...) ...and all that jazz... (Pg.
14--ed.)  What has always existed is the white man's _frontlash_.

Pg. 49 (July 1959)--And, what a big megilla* we made over it!
*Megilla--a Jewish word which means "hassle" or "tumult"--you know, like a
big deal being made over the thing.

Pg. 56 (September 1962)--What people like Drew Pearson, David Lawrence, and
papers like _The New York Times_ just can't seem to accept or realize is that
colored people have been choosing Adam Powell to speak for them for eighteen
years now.
   "He may be a rogue," summed up one woman so eloquently several years ago
as she announced her intention of voting for Adam, "but he's _my_ rogue."

Pg. 135--When we were kids, we used to chant a sassy ditty:
_If you're white, you're all right._
_If you're yellow, you're mellow._
_If you're brown, you can stick around._
_If you're black, step way back._

Pg. 173 (April 1964)--...Irene retorted: "Shucks, when she yells 'Jump!' he
asks 'How high?'" (Pg. 174--ed.) ..."stall-ins"...

Pg. 196 (September 1959)--Sleepily, the customer yawned and said: "Make me a
malted milkshake."
   "Okay," replied the genie, flashing his power on, "you're a malted
milkshake."
(I've heard the "Make me a sandwich" variation of this old joke as well--ed.)


From lmedu at JPS.NET  Sun Nov 26 06:37:09 2000
From: lmedu at JPS.NET (Sharon Vaipae)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 23:37:09 -0700
Subject: language as SES marker
Message-ID: <SAT.25.NOV.2000.233709.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear WordMasters,

I have subscribed to the ADS listserve for several years because I enjoy
words, and equally enjoy the how much I learn about them here.

Your suggestions are solicited for a question to which I have not yet found
a satisfactory
answer. I am a public high school teacher from an upper middle-class family
background in Iowa, and thus speak fairly standard English. Many of my
California small-town alternative school students speak varieties of
English which, I was told as a youngster, were "lower class." I refer to
(1) such simple items as double negatives, misuse of pronouns in subjective
and objective cases, ain't, etc.,  (2) use of "be" outside of deliberate
Eubonics (I be tired), and (3) language not quite vulgar, but close to it
(My butt is tired of sitting), and (4) peppering speech with real
vulgarities.  Some feel they HAVE cleaned up their language when they say
"friggin'" or "f-ing" instead of the real thing, or have no idea that
"shit" carries baggage.

These students are generally bright, community college-bound, and with
aspirations of improving their social, familial, and financial situations.
Few yet have encounted situations where their language would be considered
a handicap, or  failed to recognize it when it might have occurred. ("My
boss at Burger King says 'ain't, and he's doin' big money."  "This is the
way I talk, and if nobody don't like it, that be their problem.")

My problem is how to meaningfully explain, without being laughed out of the
classroom, (1) that language like this is a marker of SES and educational
level, and that its use can exclude one from opportunities one might
otherwise have, (2) make the explanation one they can "relate to," and (3)
not offend my students in the process.

HELP!

Sharon


Sharon Vaipae           "The truth shall make you odd."
LMedu at jps.net                          - Flannery O'Connor
Tracy, CA


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Nov 26 12:37:45 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 07:37:45 -0500
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <20001126002656.22361.qmail@web9904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.073745.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>This evening's 500 pound question on England's version
>of _Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?_ was, "Which of
>these is called the 'crazy bone' in the USA?"  The
>answer was the 'funny bone.'  Does anyone know in what
>regions 'crazy bone' is commonly used?  Or have the
>Brits got it wrong?

Not really *wrong*, but ...

The RHUD shows "crazy bone" (= "funny bone") labeled "Chiefly Northern,
Midland, and Western U.S.". Probably there's a study somewhere.

I've heard "crazy bone" used routinely (northern and midland), but in my
personal experience it's been much less frequent than "funny bone" in the
same regions.

-- Doug Wilson


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov 26 13:43:31 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 08:43:31 -0500
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <20001126002656.22361.qmail@web9904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.084331.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE shows us that both are widespread in the US. "Crazy bone" is less
common in the South, and "funny bone" is less common in the West, Midwest,
and New England. As a boy of the South - Midwest borderlands, I grew up
with both.

dInIs



>This evening's 500 pound question on England's version
>of _Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?_ was, "Which of
>these is called the 'crazy bone' in the USA?"  The
>answer was the 'funny bone.'  Does anyone know in what
>regions 'crazy bone' is commonly used?  Or have the
>Brits got it wrong?
>
>Mike Gottlieb
>University College London
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
>http://shopping.yahoo.com/


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Ellen.Polsky at COLORADO.EDU  Sun Nov 26 15:03:11 2000
From: Ellen.Polsky at COLORADO.EDU (POLSKY ELLEN S)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 08:03:11 -0700
Subject: language as SES marker
In-Reply-To: <l03130303b64657247d95@[216.224.147.205]>
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.080311.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In response to Sharon Vaipae, who would like to discuss with her students
when it is appropriate to use standard English (and when it is appropriate
to use home dialects), I suggest the book "Dialects in Schools and
Communities" by Walt Wolfram, Carilyn Adger, and Donna Christian.  The
publishers are Lawrence Erlbaum Associates.  The copyright is 1999.  Pay
special attention to Chapter 8 (Dialect Awareness for Students).  His work
with dialect awareness in middle schools is quite amazing.

Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky at Colorado.EDU)


From Amcolph at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 26 15:35:04 2000
From: Amcolph at AOL.COM (Ray Ott)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 10:35:04 EST
Subject: Crazy Bone
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.103504.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".  The
"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"

Ray Ott


From sagehen at SLIC.COM  Sun Nov 26 16:41:58 2000
From: sagehen at SLIC.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:41:58 -0500
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <57.df0424e.275287a8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.114158.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".  The
>"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
>laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"
>
>Ray Ott
----------
Same here, growing up in Nebraska in the thirties & forties. ( Had to wait
a couple of decades for the effect of Bob & Ray!)
A. Murie

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at slic.com


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Sun Nov 26 17:53:40 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 09:53:40 -0800
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <l03130300b646ed22b469@[216.207.138.128]>
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.095340.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Same here, growing up in Portland, OR. I can't recall anyone using "funny
bone" for the elbow.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, sagehen wrote:

> >Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".  The
> >"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
> >laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"
> >
> >Ray Ott
> ----------
> Same here, growing up in Nebraska in the thirties & forties. ( Had to wait
> a couple of decades for the effect of Bob & Ray!)
> A. Murie
>
> A&M Murie
> N. Bangor NY
> sagehen at slic.com
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 26 22:41:01 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 17:41:01 EST
Subject: Bullderdash
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.174101.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BULLDERDASH

   From the FINANCIAL TIMES, November 25-26, 2000, Weekend, Pg. XXVIII (28 to
you and me, but this is the FT), col. 3:

THE LONG VIEW by Barry Riley
_The old bear and Bush_
_Mort Duhm is cheered by the unsustainable financial environment_
(...)  "That (sic) what I call bullderdash," snapped Duhm.  "After such a
long bull market it just takes a long time to change the mentality of
investors.  They know a severe correction is looming.  Indeed, it's already
happened in the technology sectors, which are 50 per cent down from the March
highs.  But these days nobody dares to go liquid."
("Duhm" is a dumb, made-up name.  The article describes Duhm as a
"doomster"--the opposite of "boomster"--ed.)

(The same Weekend FT has "Wordplay" by Ian Davidson--not my idea of a word
column, and not in every week--and a review of Encarta's quotations book and
others, by Jan Dalley--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

LONG TIME, NO SEE--David Shulman told me yesterday that he was incorrect.
His "long time, no see" was from the 1940s, not the 1880s.  Never mind.

STOVE PIPE ORGANIZATION--I couldn't find it before 1993.  So maybe it wasn't
Peter Drucker, but possibly Tom Peters?

SAFIRE WATCH--Nothing's changed.  My letter to the editor was censored.  My
corrections were censored.  This week--Safire can't do "chad," because he'd
have to credit the American Dialect Society and maybe me--he does "snippy."
The source is right out of OED, but Safire doesn't credit the OED and makes
as if he found "snippy" himself.

KATHERINE HARRIS WATCH--There is no Katherine Harris watch!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 27 01:52:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 20:52:15 EST
Subject: ACM Glossary; Computers and Automation
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.205215.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The NYU Bobst Library has ELECTRONIC DATA PROCESSING IN INDUSTRY, report
#3, American Management Association, 1955 (Call number HF5548.A518 c.1).  On
pages 243-257 is a "Glossary of Programming Terminology."  Pg. 243: "This
Glossary was prepared as a report to the Association of Computing Machinery
in June 1954, by its Committee on Nomenclature: Grace Murray Hopper,
Chairman...."  No "chad."
   I've been going through the extremely boring AMERICAN DOCUMENTATION
(1950-present).  I read a citation for a more interesting journal, COMPUTERS
AND AUTOMATION, which has a "Glossary of Terms in the Field of Computers and
Automation" in December 1954, pages 8-23.  NYU doesn't seem to have this
journal (which I'll check in the NYPL tomorrow), and I'm holding George
Thompson responsible.


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Mon Nov 27 09:44:27 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:44:27 +0100
Subject: UK Spelling Row
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.104427.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

"The government has told school test officials to scrap their advice to pupils about
using non-English spellings such as "fetus" and "sulfate" in national curriculum
science tests."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/education/newsid_1039000/1039050.stm


From ramt1 at YORK.AC.UK  Mon Nov 27 12:03:35 2000
From: ramt1 at YORK.AC.UK (Ros Temple)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:03:35 +0000
Subject: THIRD UK LANGUAGE VARIATION AND CHANGE CONFERENCE
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.120335.0000.RAMT1@YORK.AC.UK>

With apologies for cross / double postings


THIRD UK LANGUAGE VARIATION CONFERENCE

Call for papers

The third UK Language Variation Conference will take place at the
University of York from July 19th to 22nd 2001. This series of meetings
was inaugurated at the University of Reading in 1997 and aims to provide a
forum in the United Kingdom where the focus will be on the quantitative
study of language variation and change. Proposals are invited for
20-minute contributions (plus 10 minutesÕ discussion) on topics falling
within the proposed focus area. Abstracts (max. 500 words) should be sent
within the text of an email to uklvc3 at york.ac.uk, stating authorÕs name,
address (electronic and postal) and institutional affiliation. Deadline
for submission of abstracts: January 31st, 2001. All abstracts will be
refereed and replies will be sent out by April 1st, 2001.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dept of Language and Linguistic Science,
University of York,                             ramt1 at york.ac.uk
Heslington,                                     direct:   + 44.1904.432671
York YO1 5DD                                    dept sec: + 44.1904.432650
England / Lloegr                                fax:      + 44.1904.432673


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Nov 27 14:40:06 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:40:06 -0500
Subject: "chad" in OED
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.094006.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just wanted to clarify the status of the word _chad_ in the OED.
Despite various statements about its future inclusion, such
statements including my reported "sniffing" that it was under
consideration before recent political events, _chad_ was first
publicly included in OED material in 1993, in the _Oxford
English Dictionary Additions Series,_ Volume I. It is in OED
Online as well. Our etymology is "Origin unknown" and the first
example is 1959, which will be improved upon when we get
around to revising it.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED
<jester at panix.com>


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Mon Nov 27 15:07:54 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:07:54 -0600
Subject: language as SES marker
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.090754.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

You might start by making an honest admission that our choice of "standard"
in any language is almost always the result of one group's lock on political
and economic power.  The dialect spoken in N Iowa and in my hometown in N
Illinois, Inland Northern, became de facto standard because of the economic
and social proclivities of Yankees from the northeast.  They dominated city
and small-town businesses; they felt their culture and Protestant religion
made them superior to others; they also, during the nineteenth century,
dominated the public education system and, probably, publishers.  It is not
fair but it is reality.  (I will here promote the chapter on "Yankee
Cultural Imperialism" in my book HEARTLAND ENGLISH.)

Realize, too, that many changes in English are part of processes which have
been going on since the Norman Invasion of England radically changed
English.  Anglo  Saxon English and other dialects of the time relied on
complex sets of suffixes and a very diverse set of pronouns to make sense.
Even as late as the sixteen century, for example, English still had separate
second-person pronouns for singular (thou) and plural (you).  But English
continues to simply that system: now "you" is both singular and plural.
When kids say "me and him did it," they continue that process of
simplification.  It seems to me to be much more logical than "standard"
English.  We need to teach language arts with an informed attitude.  That
helps.

Tim Frazer
----- Original Message -----
From: Sharon Vaipae <lmedu at JPS.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 12:37 AM
Subject: language as SES marker


> Dear WordMasters,
>
> I have subscribed to the ADS listserve for several years because I enjoy
> words, and equally enjoy the how much I learn about them here.
>
> Your suggestions are solicited for a question to which I have not yet
found
> a satisfactory
> answer. I am a public high school teacher from an upper middle-class
family
> background in Iowa, and thus speak fairly standard English. Many of my
> California small-town alternative school students speak varieties of
> English which, I was told as a youngster, were "lower class." I refer to
> (1) such simple items as double negatives, misuse of pronouns in
subjective
> and objective cases, ain't, etc.,  (2) use of "be" outside of deliberate
> Eubonics (I be tired), and (3) language not quite vulgar, but close to it
> (My butt is tired of sitting), and (4) peppering speech with real
> vulgarities.  Some feel they HAVE cleaned up their language when they say
> "friggin'" or "f-ing" instead of the real thing, or have no idea that
> "shit" carries baggage.
>
> These students are generally bright, community college-bound, and with
> aspirations of improving their social, familial, and financial situations.
> Few yet have encounted situations where their language would be considered
> a handicap, or  failed to recognize it when it might have occurred. ("My
> boss at Burger King says 'ain't, and he's doin' big money."  "This is the
> way I talk, and if nobody don't like it, that be their problem.")
>
> My problem is how to meaningfully explain, without being laughed out of
the
> classroom, (1) that language like this is a marker of SES and educational
> level, and that its use can exclude one from opportunities one might
> otherwise have, (2) make the explanation one they can "relate to," and (3)
> not offend my students in the process.
>
> HELP!
>
> Sharon
>
>
> Sharon Vaipae           "The truth shall make you odd."
> LMedu at jps.net                          - Flannery O'Connor
> Tracy, CA
>


From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Mon Nov 27 15:20:33 2000
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:20:33 -0500
Subject: Fwd: chad
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.102033.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Forwarded with permission, an interesting comment from one of my readers:



>From: BobKamman at aol.com
>Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 14:40:11 EST
>Subject: My theory on chad
>To: questions at word-detective.com
>X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 115
>
>In a letter to the Wall Street Journal, I write:
>
>Not to nitpick, but it is highly unlikely that the word "chad" originated
>from an invention by a Mr. Chadless, to keypunch tape or cards in a way that
>did not create confetti residue (Comment: Words, Nov. 22).  A search of
>several genealogical databases turns up no one with that last name except one
>man in North Carolina in 1860.
>
>A better theory is that the term originated from the British military slang
>term "chat," for louse, as in the tiny flat rectangular insects about the
>size of a chad.  Some evidence for this comparison comes from an April 1988
>computer hacker newsletter, preserved by several websites, which advises:
>"The first thing to do is empty the card punch's punchbin of all the little
>punchlets, and throw them in someone's hair some rowdy night.  I guarantee
>the little suckers will stay in their hair for six months, they are
>impossible to get out.  Static or something makes them cling like lice.
>Showers don't even work."
>
>The slang "chat" may be derived from the earlier, more common meaning of the
>word.  One website devoted to British World War I terminology reports:  "Lice
>were the soldier's constant companions and were known colloquially as
>'chats.' Troops used to congregate in groups to de-louse themselves, and
>de-lousing, or  'chatting' became a social event."

--
Evan Morris
words1 at word-detective.com
http://www.word-detective.com


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 27 16:53:47 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:53:47 -0500
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.21.0011260951420.116432-100000@homer36.u.washin
 gton.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.115347.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ditto for Minnesota.  But in southern Ohio I only hear "funny bone" for
both elbow and amusing stuff.

At 09:53 AM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote:
>Same here, growing up in Portland, OR. I can't recall anyone using "funny
>bone" for the elbow.
>
>Allen
>maberry at u.washington.edu
>
>On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, sagehen wrote:
>
> > >Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".  The
> > >"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
> > >laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"
> > >
> > >Ray Ott
> > ----------
> > Same here, growing up in Nebraska in the thirties & forties. ( Had to wait
> > a couple of decades for the effect of Bob & Ray!)
> > A. Murie
> >
> > A&M Murie
> > N. Bangor NY
> > sagehen at slic.com
> >


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Mon Nov 27 17:13:41 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:13:41 +0000
Subject: Crazy Bone
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.171341.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> From:         Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>
> Ditto for Minnesota.  But in southern Ohio I only hear "funny bone" for
> both elbow and amusing stuff.
>
> At 09:53 AM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote:
> >Same here, growing up in Portland, OR. I can't recall anyone using "funny
> >bone" for the elbow.
> >Allen
> >maberry at u.washington.edu
> >
> >On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, sagehen wrote:
> >
> > > >Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".  The
> > > >"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
> > > >laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"
> > > >
> > > >Ray Ott
> > > ----------
> > > Same here, growing up in Nebraska in the thirties & forties. ( Had to wait
> > > a couple of decades for the effect of Bob & Ray!)
> > > A. Murie


I'd never heard of 'crazy bone' before this exchange.  I'm wondering if there's
perhaps a generational divide on this.

Lynne, who knows Bob ("Bob and Ray") Elliot only as Chris Elliot's father...

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK


From storkrn at EMAIL.MSN.COM  Mon Nov 27 17:17:14 2000
From: storkrn at EMAIL.MSN.COM (storkrn)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:17:14 -0800
Subject: Crazy Bone
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.091714.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In rural Connecticut I never heard anything but funny bone. In fact as I've thought about it, I've only heard crazy bone in
California in the past few years.

Sharyn Hay storknurse


Beverly Flanigan wrote
> Ditto for Minnesota.  But in southern Ohio I only hear "funny bone" for
> both elbow and amusing stuff.
>
> At 09:53 AM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote:
> >Same here, growing up in Portland, OR. I can't recall anyone using "funny
> >bone" for the elbow.
> >Allen
> >maberry at u.washington.edu
> >
> >On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, sagehen wrote:
> >
> > > >Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".  The
> > > >"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
> > > >laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"
> > > >
> > > >Ray Ott
> > > ----------
> > > Same here, growing up in Nebraska in the thirties & forties. ( Had to wait
> > > a couple of decades for the effect of Bob & Ray!)
> > > A. Murie


I'd never heard of 'crazy bone' before this exchange.  I'm wondering if there's
perhaps a generational divide on this.

Lynne, who knows Bob ("Bob and Ray") Elliot only as Chris Elliot's father...

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Mon Nov 27 17:13:57 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:13:57 EST
Subject: gunners; monachie again; and modest American females, 1823
In-Reply-To: <a0.66ffaba.268af4ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.121357.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Noticed in the sports pages of the NYTimes a few days ago, but
retrieved from Proquest this morning, a word not in HDAS:

        "After Desmond Howard returned a punt 50 yards in the first quarter,
Fassel yelled, "Where the hell are the gunners going?"  Good
question.  We know where the gunners -- the human missiles who go
directly after the return man once the ball is kicked -- were not
going, and that was toward Howard."
        NY Times, November 20, 2000
        HDAS has "gunner" as a basketball term, and in other contexts, but
not this football sense.

        Enough of this recent stuff.  My heart is in the 1820s.

        Some months ago I posted from an 1823 source the word "monachie", an
apparently unrecorded term for a part of a cart.  I haven't been able
to get into the LinguistList this morning, so I can't refresh my
memory as to when I posted this, or the extent of the rather
desultory discussion the posting produced.  However, the citation
left unclear exactly what a "monachie" was: where on the cart, and of
what use.       Another report of the same incident is more descriptive:
        ". . . the prisoner instantly seized the monachie of his cart (a
stick standing up in front of a cart, about 3 feet long, and used to
tie the reins to,) and threw it at . . . the deceased. . . .
        Commercial Advertiser, November 14, 1823, p. 2, col. 4

        This is from the New-York Evening Post of July 15, 1823, p. 2, cols.
2-3.  The editor is quoting from a article published in the Glasgow
Chronicle of May 24, 1823, by one Hedderwick, on his observations
while travelling in the United States.
        "So far as I am able to judge, the English language is universally
spoken in greater purity than it is in Britain.  I also willingly pay
my tribute of admiration to the American females, for the exemplary
inoffensive "modest" exclamations, universally substituted for those
multiform irreverential expletives in vogue in Britain; according to
the degree of wonder, approbation or dislike meant to be expressed;
the phrases are, "Oh, my! -- Oh my, my! -- Oh my, my! well, did you
ever?""

GAT


From jessie at SIRSI.COM  Mon Nov 27 17:29:46 2000
From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:29:46 -0600
Subject: Crazy Bone
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.112946.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've only ever heard/used funny bone.

There are some collectable plastic toys called crazy bones; I think the
"craze" started about four years ago, immediately after beanie babies
started losing ground.

Jessie Emerson


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Nov 27 17:38:16 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:38:16 -0800
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <E140Rqf-0005c9-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.093816.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This might be generational, but I'm not too sure. It seems out here
in the PNW that "tickling one's funny bone" for being amused is the one
that was used or was at least familiar to my generation (and before). I
certainly don't hear it much anymore.
It could be simply regional as most of my family is either from the
Midwest or the South, as were the vast majority of the people grew up
with.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> > From:         Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
> >
> > Ditto for Minnesota.  But in southern Ohio I only hear "funny bone" for
> > both elbow and amusing stuff.
> >
> > At 09:53 AM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote:
> > >Same here, growing up in Portland, OR. I can't recall anyone using "funny
> > >bone" for the elbow.
> > >Allen
> > >maberry at u.washington.edu
> > >
> > >On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, sagehen wrote:
> > >
> > > > >Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".  The
> > > > >"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
> > > > >laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"
> > > > >
> > > > >Ray Ott
> > > > ----------
> > > > Same here, growing up in Nebraska in the thirties & forties. ( Had to wait
> > > > a couple of decades for the effect of Bob & Ray!)
> > > > A. Murie
>
>
> I'd never heard of 'crazy bone' before this exchange.  I'm wondering if there's
> perhaps a generational divide on this.
>
> Lynne, who knows Bob ("Bob and Ray") Elliot only as Chris Elliot's father...
>
> Dr M Lynne Murphy
> Lecturer in Linguistics
> School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
> University of Sussex
> Brighton BN1 9QH
> UK
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Nov 27 17:36:57 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:36:57 -0500
Subject: Fwd: chad
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001127101854.00d18ac0@mail.word-detective.com>
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.123657.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>The slang "chat" may be derived from the earlier, more common meaning of the
>>word.  One website devoted to British World War I terminology reports:  "Lice
>>were the soldier's constant companions and were known colloquially as
>>'chats.' Troops used to congregate in groups to de-louse themselves, and
>>de-lousing, or  'chatting' became a social event."

But "chat" = "talk" in the 'modern' sense occurred as early as 1556, and in
a slightly different sense as early as 1440, according to the OED: thought
to be from "chatter".

"Chat(t)s" = "lice" apparently exists since 1690 (OED): said to be from
"chattel" (lice = the poor man's cattle) (discussed in Farmer and Hensley,
ca. 1900).

Partridge gives the verb "chat" or "chatt" = "look for lice"/"delouse",
from WW I. But apparently "chat" = "talk" was already long established
separately. Possibly these were connected as a sort of joke during WW I?

-- Doug Wilson


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Mon Nov 27 18:30:48 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:30:48 -0600
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <20001126002656.22361.qmail@web9904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.123048.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE has maps showing somewhat complementary distributions for crazy bone
and funny bone.  Crazy bone is labeled "widespread, but least freq in Sth,
NYC."  Funny bone is dense throughout the South and all of NY state (as
well as in many other areas).  The label given there is "widespread, but
less common eNEng, Midl, West."


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Mon Nov 27 18:37:48 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:37:48 +0000
Subject: Crazy Bone
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.183748.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> DARE has maps showing somewhat complementary distributions for crazy bone
> and funny bone.  Crazy bone is labeled "widespread, but least freq in Sth,
> NYC."  Funny bone is dense throughout the South and all of NY state (as
> well as in many other areas).  The label given there is "widespread, but
> less common eNEng, Midl, West."
>

OK, maybe it's not generational then (since I fit into the NY state
category).  I wonder why the south and NY state are the same though...

Lynne


From drew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Mon Nov 27 20:32:53 2000
From: drew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:32:53 -0500
Subject: a horse a piece
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.153253.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am interested in phrases that signify (usually qualitative) similarity
or equality.  Examples are "a horse a piece", "six of one, half dozen of
the other", or "the same difference".  I have an (obvious) feeling that
"a horse a piece" has its origins somewhere in equestrian culture, but
as a newbie to dialectology, I have not been able to confirm or trace it
with the resources at my disposal.

A discussion of origins of these sorts of phrases seems to me to be a
reasonable segue out of the chad threads, not to mention that whole mess
in Florida :)

Drew.Danielson at cmu.edu


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Mon Nov 27 20:53:40 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:53:40 +0000
Subject: a horse a piece
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.205340.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I am interested in phrases that signify (usually qualitative) similarity
> or equality.  Examples are "a horse a piece", "six of one, half dozen of
> the other", or "the same difference".  I have an (obvious) feeling that
> "a horse a piece" has its origins somewhere in equestrian culture, but
> as a newbie to dialectology, I have not been able to confirm or trace it
> with the resources at my disposal.

I've never heard 'a horse a piece', but I've been thinking about another
item that might fit into this set:  "It's all the same to me."  The
interesting thing about this and "same difference" (well, interesting to
me at least) is that while the speaker is claiming that the things are the
same, they are acknowledging that they are objectively different.  I've
been interested in these phrases for what they indicate about people's
attitudes toward the synonymy of expressions.  (For example, you might
tell me that the phrases in this set mean different things, but it's all
the same to me.)

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From drew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Mon Nov 27 22:57:49 2000
From: drew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:57:49 -0500
Subject: a horse apiece
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.175749.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I'll be
> interested to hear where you've heard the phrase "a horse apiece" used.
> All of our examples are from Wisconsin, but since they were heard
> anecdotally, we didn't know whether it was an accident of our location or
> whether there might be some real regionality.

I honestly don't remember where I first heard the phrase, only that it's
been recently (within the past 5 years) that I remember hearing it.  I
spent a lot of time in parts of Virginia where there are military
families from all over the US, but that may or may not be where I heard
it.

The phrase is not in common usage in my region (Western PA), but I think
it's a colorful expression so I try to use it when I can to help grow
its currency.  I haven't had to explain its meaning to anyone, so
apparently it's understood (or else its meaning is easily inferred
through its context).

I did quick searches on google.com and altavista.com for the phrase, and
the  minimal data I was able to collect there show the phrase being used
once in a Usenet message by someone from one of the Dakotas, and a
Canadian website for writers attributed it as being used in Upper
Michigan and Wisconsin.

Drew.Danielson at cmu.edu


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Nov 27 23:07:43 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:07:43 -0800
Subject: a horse apiece
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.150743.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

to drew.danielson at cmu.edu: could we have some examples of the
expression in context?

another suggestion for the inventory of possible related expressions:
"a distinction/difference that makes no difference".


From drew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Mon Nov 27 23:23:15 2000
From: drew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:23:15 -0500
Subject: a horse apiece
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.182315.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold Zwicky wrote:
>
> to drew.danielson at cmu.edu: could we have some examples of the
> expression in context?

"As far as email readers, Netscape and Eudora are a horse a piece.  Now,
Outlook is a bird of a different feather."

"Do you want to go out for dinner or stay in and eat?" "I don't know,
it's a horse a piece."


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Nov 27 23:48:25 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:48:25 -0800
Subject: a horse apiece
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.154825.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

examples of "a horse a piece"...

ah, check DARE on "a horse apiece" 'a draw' (i.e. 'a horse for each'),
with wisconsin quotations, esp., the second (with reference to 1966),
in which the dice game "horse" is cited.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From l.gibson at LYCOS.COM  Tue Nov 28 00:42:41 2000
From: l.gibson at LYCOS.COM (Lauren Gibson)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 16:42:41 -0800
Subject: Regional Dialects
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.164241.0800.>

Hello! I am doing research for a paper on Regional Dialects and I desperately need your help. If you could, please tell me what city/state you are from and then read the descriptions of words and tell me what word you would use to go along with that description(what word I am describing). It won't take long, I promise! Thank you for your time.

Example: place where a train stops : station, railway station, depot, train stop,                                                   train station, or railroad station

1) Center of a peach:  ________
2) to put a single room of the house in order: __________
3) web hanging from the ceiling of a room: __________
4) large open metal container for scrub water: _________
5) grass strip in the center of a divided road: __________
6) policeman: ________
7) place where packaged groceries can be purchased: ________
8) insect that glows at night: _________
9) a carbonated drink: __________
10) food eaten between regular meals: ________
11) someone who is from the country: _________
12) someone who won't change his mind is said to be: _________
13) fast-moving amusement park ride (on tracks): ________
14) paper container for groceries: ________

Thank you again,

Lauren Gibson
l.gibson at lycos.com


Get FREE Email/Voicemail with 15MB at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Tue Nov 28 01:09:55 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:09:55 -0500
Subject: a horse apiece
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.200955.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A selection of 'a horse apiece' cites from around the web.  There may be
an indication of region in a couple of the sites, per their web
address.  All in all, a new and interesting phrase for me.

George S. Cole  gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University
======================

>From Senate minutes, i.e., the student senate, at UWGB:
http://www.uwgb.edu/studgov/Senate100900.htm

http://www.shu.ac.uk/web-admin/phrases/bulletin_board/3/messages/491.html

http://www.shu.ac.uk/web-admin/phrases/bulletin_board/3/messages/492.html

http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extnews/newsrelease/1999/042999/26hortis.htm

http://talk.hunters.com/talk/Big_Game_Hunting/19594.html

http://www.fishinfo.com/andymyers/freport.htmmesg/172.html

http://www.paw.com/sail/ncssa/HISTORY-09-LillysWin.htm

http://www.ideatree.net/reflexdo/v1n1crea.html

http://www.ideatree.net/comments/colarc05.htm

http://www.merc.net/kvi/wwwboard/messages/112.html

http://deborahmaebroad.com/E_02-M.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 28 01:31:44 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:31:44 EST
Subject: NYSE "teenies"
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.203144.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the DAILY NEWS EXPRESS (rush hour freebie version of the newspaper),
27 November 2000, pg. 14, col. 1:

_A new market language_
(...) A teenie is trader jargon for 1/16 of a dollar, or 6.25 cents.
(Col. 2--ed.)  The term "teenies," for example, dates back to 1997, when the
exchanges began trading stocks in increments of 1/16 for the first time.
"Three sixteenths" quickly became "three teenths" and then "three teenies."
   But "teenies" are meaningless in decimal trading, where stocks can be
traded in 1/100th--or penny--increments, so now traders have to find a new
vocabulary that maximizes (Col. 3--ed.) efficiency without compromising
accuracy.

(Actually, while "teenies" shows up on the Dow Jones database frequently from
5-5-97, there's a BARRON'S 1-27-92 hit and a SF EXAMINER 2-2-93 hit as
well--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 28 02:28:14 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:28:14 EST
Subject: Rueben; Monte Cristo; French Dip; Box Lunch; Kaiser
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.212814.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I've been going through RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT.  There are quite a few gems.

--------------------------------------------------------
RUEBEN; MONTE CRISTO; FRENCH DIP SANDWICHES

   From RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, June 1936, pages 412-413:

_Hy's Three-Ring Circus MENU MAKING_
E. A. Bachman, proprietor of the Annex, Portland, Oregon, features Hy Frager,
the famous American chef who peps up menu listings with verbal acrobatics.
(Pg. 413, col. 1--ed.)
       _Combination Sandwiches_
"CLUBHOUSE" (Breast of Chicken, Crisp Premium Bacon, TOmato, Lettuce, Pickles
and Olives)... .40
"RUEBEN" (Not "Reuben"--ed.) (Baked Premium Ham, WHite Meat Chicken, Coquille
Swiss Cheese and Tomato on Russian Rye)... .45
"MONTE CRISTO" (Baked Ham and Coquille Swiss Cheese, French Toasted in
Butter)... .35
"ANNEX" (Oregon's Choice Yaquina Oysters, Ham, Green Peppers in Butter, Cream
and Eggs)... .45
(Col. 2--ed.)
"POP" (Chicken Salad, Lettuce, Tomato and Bacon, Olives)... .30
"HOLC" (Baked Ham, Peanut Butter and India Relish)... .25
"PWA" (Tuna Fish, Tomato, Lettuce and 1000 Isle)... .25
"FOREST SERVICE" (Baked Beans, Chili Sauce and Bacon)...  .25
"FRENCH DIP SANDWICH" (A crispy, crunchy Hard Roll w/ an amazing filling of
Barbecued Meat, Swiss Cheese and a spicy, tangy Wine Sauce that combines into
a superb bouquet of flavor)... .20

   Also, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, January 1937, "ideas from a thousand menus,"
pg. 55, col. 2:

SANDWICHES (...)
$.35 Monte Cristo (Ham and American Cheese, Dipped in Egg, Fried in
Butter)--Ballard-Ludlow Ferry.

--------------------------------------------------------
CHEESEBURGERS

   OED has "cheeseburger" from 1938, citing AMERICAN SPEECH.
   From RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, June 1935, pg. 429, advertisement for
Kraft-Phenix Cuisine Service:

The new profit specialty--
HAMBURGER-CHEESE BUNS
   In every town they've hit, they've been a sensation--Hamburger-Cheese
Buns!  Something new...something people try out of curiosity..order again and
again because they taste _so good_!
   They're toasted buns filled with fried hamburger patties, Miracle Whip
Salad Dressing, India relish and--Kraft "Old English" Cheese!

(Kraft would have tons of "cheeseburger" ads in the 1950s in this same
publication--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
BACON-LETTUCE-TOMATO (BLT)

   From RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, April 1937, pg. 303, and a menu dated December
15, 1936:

   SANDWICHES
Bacon, Tomato and Lettuce Sandwich  .20

(OED has _Hash House_ of 1941 for this "BMT" sandwich.  Kraft would call this
"America's Favorite" in its multi-colored 1950s ads, but I'll tell you when I
spot "BLT"--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
BOX LUNCH

   OED has 1954 for "box lunch."  Surely, better stuff is in the files?
   RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, April 1937, pg. 310, col. 1:

_LUNCH BOX CATERERS DOOM FULL DINNER PAIL_
(Photo--ed.) Line up of caterers' trucks at a Milwaukee factory waiting for
the noonday rush.
(Another photo shows a building that reads: "THE HOME OF ACE, INC., BOX LUNCH
'There are None Better'"--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
KAISER ROLLS

   OED has 1968 for "Kaiser bun" and 1978 for "Kaiser roll."  Just awful!  I
haven't checked DARE.
   From RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, June 1937, pg. 516, col. 2:

_ROLLS FOR INTERNATIONAL APPETITES_
    _INDEX-ROLLS_
    _SOFT ROLLS_
No.  Name of Roll  Cost per Dozen
1.  Basic Soft Roll Dough
2.  Cinnamon Buns...$.04 1/2
3.  Clover Leaf Rolls... .04
4.  English Crescent Rolls... .04
5.  Finger Rolls... .04
6.  Parker House Rolls... .04
7.  Poppy Seed Twist Rolls... .04
8.  Raisin Rolls... .06
9.  Soft Round Rolls... .04
10. Soft Waldorf Rolls... .04
11. Sugar Buns... .03
    _HARD ROLLS_
12. Basic Hard Roll Dough
13. Cigar Rolls... .03 1/2
14. French Crescent Rolls... .15
15. French Split Rolls... .02
16. Galette Rolls... .03
17. Hard Waldorf Rolls... .02 1/2
18. Kaiser Rolls... .03
19. Salstein Rolls... .03
   _MISCELLANEOUS ROLLS_
20. Bran Muffins... .11
21. Corn Muffins... .07
22. English Muffins... .04
23. Rye Rolls... .02 2/3
24. Tea Biscuits... .02
25. Whole Wheat Rolls... .02 2/3
25A. Rum Buns... .05


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 28 02:48:26 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:48:26 EST
Subject: V-sign; OK-sign
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.214826.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

V-SIGN

   From RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, April 1937, pg. 328, col. 1 ad:

_Look Gay...Be Gay_
in Smart New
Uniforms with
CHEERIO _Print_
_Accessories_...
   There's a gay spirit in the air when waitresses wear HOOVER'S smart uniforms with flower-print accessories.  Pretty as a picture, yet perfectly practical...because, like _all_ HOOVER service uniforms, these too are tailored to give long service.  Order the uniform illustrated in maize or green... Sizes 14 to 46.
HOOVER
Creators of Original Ideas
FOR SMART UNIFORMS
251 West 19th Street . New York, N. Y.

(The waitress is smiling and giving the "V" sign to someone not shown.  What could this mean?  This was before Winston Churchill and before "gay=homosexual."--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
OK-SIGN

   This is showing up in a food context before Ballantine's beer advertisements (see ADS-L archive).  I read a few 1930s and a few 1950s RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT issues.

May 1935, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 340.  An ad for Frigidaire shows a chef making the sign.  All his fingers are curved and the circle is not quite finished, with the two fingers a hair apart.

May 1936, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 366, col. 1.  An ad for Calumet Baking Powder shows a chef making the sign.  "_Voila!_  What would you expect!  _Of course_, the FRENCH LINE uses Calumet!"
(On the same page, col. 2, is an A-1 Sauce ad that shows something very close to the "smiley"--ed.)

January 1937, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 3.  Thermotainer ad shows a chef spoon-tasting with one hand and giving the sign with the other hand.  "WONDERFUL!"

January 1937, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 70.  An ad for Hall Fireproof China shows a chef making the sign.

October 1952, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 110, col. 1.  An ad for Univex Vegetable Peeler shows a chef making the sign with his thumb and middle finger.

February 1954, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 59.  An ad for Angelica Uniforms shows a chef making the sign.


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Nov 28 03:28:01 2000
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:28:01 -0600
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <E140Rqf-0005c9-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.212801.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>> From:         Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>>
>> Ditto for Minnesota.  But in southern Ohio I only hear "funny bone" for
>> both elbow and amusing stuff.
>>
>> At 09:53 AM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote:
>> >Same here, growing up in Portland, OR. I can't recall anyone using "funny
>> >bone" for the elbow.
>> >Allen
>> >maberry at u.washington.edu
>> >
>> >On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, sagehen wrote:
>> >
>> > > >Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".
>>The
>> > > >"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
>> > > >laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"
>> > > >
>> > > >Ray Ott
>> > > ----------
>> > > Same here, growing up in Nebraska in the thirties & forties. ( Had
>>to wait
>> > > a couple of decades for the effect of Bob & Ray!)
>> > > A. Murie
>
>
>I'd never heard of 'crazy bone' before this exchange.  I'm wondering if
>there's
>perhaps a generational divide on this.
>
>Lynne, who knows Bob ("Bob and Ray") Elliot only as Chris Elliot's father...
>
>Dr M Lynne Murphy

Oh good, I thought I had been missing something all my life: I also had
never heard "crazy bone" before, and, in fact, only a few days ago I hit
that part of my anatomy, and I'm pretty sure a student asked me if I had
hit my funny bone, and I agreed.

I grew up in Ohio (near Cleveland) and MA (north of Boston).

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 28 04:11:10 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:11:10 EST
Subject: Chad; Popular Mechanics (1947)
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.231110.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CHAD (continued)

   "Chad" is discussed by some guy named Chad in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL,
pg. 1.  The ADS is not mentioned, but "linguists" are.
   "Chad" wasn't in the 1954 glossary in COMPUTERS AND AUTOMATION.
   COMPUTERS AND AUTOMATION, November 1955, pg. 31, col. 2 ad for Potter
Instrument's tape handlers:  "The Potter Digital Magnetic Head eliminates
'digit drop-outs' due to oxide collection."
   COMPUTERS AND AUTOMATION, August 1955, pg. 24, col. 1:  "Errors in
operation can be caused by any of several types of tape faults such as
'holes' and raised spots in the magnetic surface, or creases in the tape."
   I checked for patents from 1937-1960 and didn't find "chad" or "chadless."
 A computer search of patents shows "chad" starting in 1976.
   The best place to look is the National Bureau of Standards.  The NBS
National Applied Mathematics Laboratories had a (1) Computation Laboratory,
(2) Institute for Numerical Analysis, and (3) Machine Development Laboratory.
 There was also an Electronics Division, Electronics Computers Section.
   I have yet to check ABSTRACT AND INDEX COLLECTION, NATIONAL BUREAU OF
STANDARDS LIBRARY (Springfield, VA, 1980) compiled by Diane Cunningham.
There is also CATALOG OF ARTIFACTS ON DISPLAY IN THE NBS MUSEUM (Washington,
DC, 1977), H. L. Mason, editor.
   Surely, "chad" and "chadless" tape were discussed in some NBS standard?

--------------------------------------------------------
POPULAR MECHANICS (1947)

   POPULAR MECHANICS was a very popular magazine that's often overlooked.  It
had a section on electronics in each issue.  It had ads for everything from
the Merriam-Webster Dictionary to Charles Atlas.

February 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 103, col. 1--"All But Kitchen Sink."

March 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 47.  "Learn by Doing" is the motto of
Coyne Electrical School of Chicago.

March 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 171.  "What's new for your home"--"POTATO
CUTTER delivers shoestring potatoes in a continuous spiral ribbon about 1/4
inch square; Onions and other vetgetables also can be cut on the machine."
Same concept as "curly fries."

April 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 44, col. 2.  Ad for "Kilroy Was Here"
little red and white discs.  Great for parties.

April 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 166, col. 1, "Robot Baseball Pitcher."
Not yet called "pitching machine."

April 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 174, "Dinners Without Drudgery."
Describes the frozen dinners--not yet called tv dinners--of WIlliam L. Maxson.

May 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 303.  An ad for the "HI-BALLER SCOOTER" by
Commercial Metal Products, 2025 Fenkell, Detroit 3, Mich.  This is the exact
same thing as today's razor scooter!

June 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 81, "Where are our new frontiers?" by
Charles F. Kettering, VP, General Motors.  ("New Frontier" before JFK--ed.)

   Lots of "make/build/do it yourself."


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Nov 28 09:49:59 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 04:49:59 -0500
Subject: Chad; Popular Mechanics (1947)
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.044959.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Recent evidence from the '50's helps fill in the void from M-W's e.q.
(earliest quote) 1947.  Thanks to Popik.  Any edb's (=electronic data
banks) besides Popik for this period.  The food stuff just doesn't
stop, it's fabulous.  Thanks Barry.

Regards,
David Barnhart

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Tue Nov 28 15:55:37 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:55:37 EST
Subject: "Corpse corn"; and a Wall Street saying?
In-Reply-To: <199906230310.UAA20318@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.105537.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Reading "Bet-A-Million Gates: The Story of a Plunger", by robert
Irving Warshow, N. Y.: Greenburg, 1932, I find the following:

        [Referring to an attempt by Gates to corner the market in corn; he
began buying at 60 cents a bushel, and drove the price up to 90
cents, then, for prudent reasons, offered to sell out at 80 cents.]
About 20,000,000 bushels were settled for at 80 cents the bushel, and
the price . . . immediately tumbled to 65 cents, leaving Gates with
about 5,000,000 bushels to be disposed of at lower prices.  The
average prices paid by Gates were about 70 cents a bushel, so that on
the "corpse corn" left with him, he actually took a loss.  On the
entire transaction, however, his syndicate netted a profit of over
$2,000,000.  (p. 117)  [I don't find "corpse corn" in OED, or in
Dictionary of Americanisms]

        [Later, the author, having described Gates as a "trader", goes into
a rhapsody about traders:]  The old-clothes man is in a sense a good
trader if he can persuade you to part with the suit you need.  But
his imagination is limited to your back doorstep.  The successful
small dealer is a trader.  "It looks like snow, boys," said the
Finns, for they had snowshoes to sell.  [This last sentence sounds
like a proverbial way of saying that a salesman must start by
creating the market for what he's selling.  I haven't checked proverb
compilations.  Barry was collecting Wall Street saying, before he got
into food and drink.  Does he know it?]

GAT


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 28 16:42:08 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:42:08 -0500
Subject: language as SES marker
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.114208.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Tim Frazer <tcf at MACOMB.COM> writes:

>>>>>
You might start by making an honest admission that our choice of "standard"
in any language is almost always the result of one group's lock on political
and economic power.      [...]

Realize, too, that many changes in English are part of processes which have
been going on since the Norman Invasion of England radically changed
English.       [...]
When kids say "me and him did it," they continue that process of
simplification.  It seems to me to be much more logical than "standard"
English.  We need to teach language arts with an informed attitude.  That
helps.
<<<<<

I agree as to the historical facts of language change and the origins of
perceived dialect superiority. But we must also acknowledge the social fact
of present and future perceived dialect superiority. "It seems to me to be
much more logical" has been said by many people of many things, including
socialism, the single tax, Esperanto, Christianity, Basic English,
democracy, dictatorship, and decimal currency. The success record is mixed.
Apparently, the appearance of logic is not enough to convince the rest of
the world.

Kids and teenagers tend to ignore or deny the importance of adult and
national/world culture to their lives. If these students are to succeed in
life beyond their current immediate circles, they must learn the forms of
language expected outside them.

   Mark A. Mandel : Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Senior Linguist
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com
                     (speaking for myself)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 28 17:44:43 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:44:43 EST
Subject: Fwd: Chad Question
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.124443.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is the "chad" answer I got from NIST (formerly NBS).
--Barry Popik
-------------- next part --------------
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From: Cindy Clark <cindy.clark at nist.gov>
Subject: Chad Question
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:49:40 -0500
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From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Tue Nov 28 19:46:29 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:46:29 -0600
Subject: language as SES marker
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.134629.0600.>

Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:

> (snip)
>
> Kids and teenagers tend to ignore or deny the importance of adult and
> national/world culture to their lives. If these students are to succeed in
> life beyond their current immediate circles, they must learn the forms of
> language expected outside them.

In time (when their rubber hits the road) they create their own form of standard, which of
course isn't very different from their parents' standard, just different enough so that
they won't appear to be guilty of opting out of the generation thing.
DMLance


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Nov 28 20:13:35 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:13:35 -0500
Subject: Past-Subjunctive WAS in counter-to-fact IF clauses
In-Reply-To: <6d.bd2401c.274dd28c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.151335.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Good point, Ron, but (and I'm really just trying to figure out what would be
best here; it's not just my normal contentiousness) why does the actuality
of the roof being peeled off take precedent over the metaphoric fancy of the
sardine can analogy?  That's what would lead me to use WERE instead of WAS.
And wouldn't the WERE take its cue from the IF that almost immediately
precedes it?  Doesn't that determine the subjunctive mood of the verb to
follow?

bob

> From: RonButters at AOL.COM
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:53:16 EST
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Past-Subjunctive WAS in counter-to-fact IF clauses
>
> It has been a long time since this thread died, but I am only just reading my
> e-mail from late October, and I'm wondering if there isn't another way
> looking at this.
>
> Isn't it the case that, in counter-to-fact if-clauses, the prescriptive rule
> allows the subjunctive BE?  An alternative second HAD BEEN might also be
> grammatically acceptable, but its repetitiousness is something to avoid if
> possible.
>
> Then, assuming that BE is correct, WAS, the past subjunctive of BE, is also
> preferable to WERE.
>
> In other words, the Brits got it right.
> --------------------------------------------
> Rudy <rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU> wrote, concerning the sentence
>
> "The roof of one carriage had been peeled off as if it was a
> sardine can."


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 28 22:19:34 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:19:34 EST
Subject: Past-Subjunctive WAS in counter-to-fact IF clauses
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.171934.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/28/2000 3:24:07 PM, highbob at MINDSPRING.COM writes:

<< Good point, Ron, but (and I'm really just trying to figure out what would
be
best here; it's not just my normal contentiousness) why does the actuality
of the roof being peeled off take precedent over the metaphoric fancy of the
sardine can analogy?  That's what would lead me to use WERE instead of WAS.
And wouldn't the WERE take its cue from the IF that almost immediately
precedes it?  Doesn't that determine the subjunctive mood of the verb to
follow? >>

The point is that WERE is the present subjunctive but WAS is the past
subjunctive. Since the time is past, I'd use the past subjunctive. Examples:

WHAT IF NIXON ACTUALLY WAS THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?
WHAT IF NADER ACTUALLY WERE THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?

My memory is that this is what the old-timey rule-books say.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Nov 29 00:53:14 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:53:14 -0800
Subject: Past-Subjunctive WAS in counter-to-fact IF clauses
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.165314.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ron butters:
 >The point is that WERE is the present subjunctive but WAS is the
 >past subjunctive. Since the time is past, I'd use the past
 >subjunctive. Examples:

 >WHAT IF NIXON ACTUALLY WAS THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?
 >WHAT IF NADER ACTUALLY WERE THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?

 >My memory is that this is what the old-timey rule-books say.

that's what fowler 1926 says.

it doesn't fit my judgments at all.  for me, the nixon sentence
is merely conditional, not specifically counterfactual; the
specifically counterfactual would be
  WHAT IF NIXON ACTUALLY HAD BEEN THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?

this is the system described in the big quirk et al. grammar.

everybody seems to agree that the nixon sentence with WERE (and
past reference) is out.  but there seem to be two different
schemes for the counterfactual in the past.  (plus the innovative,
and still non-standard, counterfactual with WOULD: WOULD HAVE BEEN.)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Nov 29 02:02:46 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 20:02:46 -0600
Subject: chad etymology revisited
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.200246.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


        In his Nov. 20, 2000 message Douglas Wilson correctly draws
attention to Joseph Wright's _English Dialect Dictionary_ for insight
into the etymology of _chad_.  I would like to follow his lead but
select a different interpretation of the evidence presented in that
dictionary.

        The central piece of information is apparently _chat_ (with
the variant _chad_ in West Yorkshire and Derbyshire) in the meaning
"catkin." My dictionary tells me that a catkin is "a usually long
ament crowded with bracts." That might as well be written in a
foreign language, but what strikes me is the etymology given for
"catkin": "from its resemblance to a cat's tail."

        In other words, the starting semantic point is not something
that falls into a pile but something long and thin, something
protruding.  Hence, e.g. meaning "6: "a protruding of blackthorn,
etc. running into a field from the fence."

        Of particular interest is meaning #5: "a chip of wood, a
small twig or branch used for firewood." I would suggest that the
"small twig or branch used for firewood" has the primary meaning
(something long and thin, akin in shape to a catkin). And  "a chip of
wood" is the secondary meaning, developed from the wood to be used in
kindling a fire.

        This "chip of wood" is evidently the immediate ancestor of
_chad_ in its present, information-age usage.  So the ultimate
etymology of _chat/chad_ seems to be no more remote than the word for
"cat"--with the imagery coming not from the whole animal but just its
tail (thence" "twig"; thence "chip of wood," thence "a punched out
chip-like piece of paper."

        Once _chat/chad_ received its meaning "a chip of wood," this
new meaning was extended to other small objects:  "a piece of coal"
(meaning #8),
"a small potato of inferior quality" (meaning #7).

        I have already stumbled once in seeking the etymology of
_chad_. Is the present attempt perhaps more plausible?

------Gerald Cohen




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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 29 02:40:36 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:40:36 EST
Subject: Children's Menus (1922)
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.214036.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     THE HOTEL INDUSTRY is a periodical comparable to THE HOTEL MONTHLY.  It
has some interesting food items and I've just started going through it.
     From THE HOTEL INDUSTRY, July 1922, pg. 11:

_Make the Menu Attractive_
(...) _"Oscar" Features Children's Menu at Waldorf_
(Photo of Oscar & friends with the caption: "The Children's Menu Introduced
by Oscar at the Waldorf Met with Instant Favor")
(Pg. 12, col. 2--ed.)
   Lately some of our best hotels have awakened to the fact that a bill of
fare suitable for children is a good thing to have and no less a culinary
authority than "Oscar of the Waldorf" has compiled such an attractive
children's menu, that the daily papers all over the country have commented
upon it, so unusual is it for anything to be done at attractive menu making,
especially for children.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 29 03:35:51 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:35:51 EST
Subject: Sloppy Joe, Doggie Bag in MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.223551.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE (established 1931) was published in Newark, NJ, and had such writers as Louis De Gouy.  It seemed vibrant in the late 1940s, when it did an extended story about National Sandwich Month (with no "hoagie" or "hero" or "sub" in sight), but deteriorated quickly.  The NYPL's last issue is from 1953.
   Affiliated publications that I might want to look through are:

THE CATERING MAGAZINE--For hotel, restaurant and all culinarians...  Official organ of the Helvetian Ass'n of North America, Inc.
SERVICE MAGAZINE--Official monthly of the Tuskegee Institute of Alabama.  The only Colored magazine of its kind.
RESTAURANT BUREAU'S NEWS LETTERS--Quick and timely information and service.  (No ads)


March 1947, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 5--(Cartoon ad for Duvernoy & Sons, Inc., Bakers, 633 West 44th St. NYC.  "Look..a Duvernoy Hot Cross Bun!"  Two men are following a beautiful woman.  One looks at the hot cross buns, while another looks at the woman's rear end.  "Bun" slang use at this time?--ed.)

May 1947, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 8, col. 1--YOU SLEEP LIKE A BABY AT THE BERKELEY.  (Ad for Berkeley Carteret on-the-Ocean-at-Asbury Park, NJ.  A photo shows a card picture of a sleeping baby and "i do not wish to be disturbed" that's used in the hotel--ed.)

July 1947, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 20, col. 1:
_They're Kind to Animals in Tacoma!_
_Tacoma Cafe Starts Unique Service For Patrons' Dogs_
   THE _New Yorker Cafe_ in Tacoma, Washington, has recently instituted a personalized service for its customers with a novel and original "_Snack-Sac_," a glacin lined, grease proof bag in which patrons may take home bones and other food scraps for their pets.  Patrons also find the "Snack-Sac" a handy container in which to take home excess portions of meat and pastry for themselves.
   This attractive "Snack-Sac" done in two colors shows an appealing and hungry dog saying "Dog-Gonit...I hope they don't forget my New Yorker Cafe 'Snack-Sac'."

August 1947, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 2--(An ad for E. F. Drew & Co.'s advanced scientific detergent shows its cartoon character called "Mr. Cleanliness," of possible use for "Mr. Clean"--ed.)

September 1948, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 12, col. 1--REMEMBER the days when a diner was--just a diner?  When you perched up on a hard stool and for a thin dime got a cup of coffee and a hamburger slopped at you by a greasy counter man?  And when nice ladies crossed to the other side of the street just to avoid the Romeos--and the smells?  Sure, you say, you remember.  In fact you can still think of a few places like that around town.  So what has that got to do with the price of beef steak? (...)  Wait a minute, you say.  Weren't we speaking of diners and sloppy Joes a minute ago?

October 1948, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR, pg. 10, col. 2--Chef _Barth_ indubitably knows his business, and has had extensive experience both here and abroad, "cheffing" in such celebrated places as the _Bristol_ in the Tyrolean Alps....

February 1949, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 10, col. 2--I know of one chef--or should I say "chef-ess." who tried the recipe out on the home range....

July 1950, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 3, col. 2--_Msg--or Ac'cent, or Zest, or Peking Powder_--has been extensively used in canned soups, frozen foods, and as a seasoning agent by hotels, restaurants and institutions, since its introduction into this country in 1934....

April 1951, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 8, col. 1--Greeted by _Dick Hey_ the new Catering Manager our attention was called to a French Proverb appearing on the daily menus as follows: _"A Meal Without Wine Is Like A Day Without Sunshine"_--And how true!
(A similar "day without sunshine" phrase was later used for Florida orange juice ads--ed.)

October 1951, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 12, col. 1--(Drawing of a chef holding a ladle in one hand, winking his eye, and giving the "OK" sign with the other hand--ed.)

December 1952, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 20--_Let's Glorify the Art of "Cheffing"_.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 29 05:00:24 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 00:00:24 EST
Subject: V & OK signs; Sandwiches; Onion Rings
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.000024.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

V & OK SIGNS (continued)

BETTERS HOMES AND GARDENS, pg. 97 (1952? I forgot to write in the date, which didn't make the copy)--An ad for V-8 shows Claudette Colbert, "soon to be appearing in "The Planter's Wife," giving the V-sign, for V-8 cocktail vegetable juices. She has the palm in rather than out--just a finger away from "the finger."

August 1949, AMERICAN HOME, pg. 47--An ad for LA FRANCE BLUING FLAKES has a downward "OK" sign with the caption "Perfect with soap or detergent."

--------------------------------------------------------
SANDWICHES

STINKO-BURGER--The recipe is on page 118, col. 2, BETTER HOMES AND GARDENS, July 1952.  It comes from 2-EE's Drive-in.  It's "a quarter pound of juicy broiled hamburger with _big_, powerfully fragrant onion slices, all tucked into a jumbo, buttered bun.

1 January 1955, SATURDAY EVENING POST--The great sandwich article cited by Merriam-Webster and others.

August 1955, HOLIDAY, pg. 61--"America's Sublime Snack" article mentions Reuben's restaurant, Guinea Hero, Submarine, Poor Boy, and Hoagie.  No etymological clues.

16 October 1956, LOOK, pg. 114--"The Great American Sandwich" article  has "Hero" and forgettable sandwich names such as "Walter Winchell" and "Soap-Opera Special."

--------------------------------------------------------
PBJ

   From RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, February 1933, pg. 77, menu in column 2:

PEANUT BUTTER, JELLY, LETTTUCE, TOMATO  20.

--------------------------------------------------------
BLT

July 1932, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 27, col. 1 menu--Crisp bacon, sliced tomato, lettuce, mayonnaise...30.

May 1933, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 214, col. 2 menu--Bacon, Lettuce and Tomato 30.

September 1947, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 19, col. 1--BACON, LETTUCE AND TOMATO.  (This is the large sandwich article, with many sandwiches given and Dagwood Bumstead mentioned--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
FRENCH ONION RINGS

   John Mariani has "French fried onion rings" from 1939.  I noticed "French Onion Rings" on both pages 412 and 413 in the previously cited Annex, Portland, Oregon, menu from RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, June 1936.


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 07:18:48 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 02:18:48 -0500
Subject: chad etymology revisited
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.021848.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gerald Cohen states:

The central piece of information is apparently _chat_ (with the variant
_chad_ in West Yorkshire and Derbyshire) in the meaning "catkin." My
dictionary tells me that a catkin is "a usually long ament crowded with
bracts." That might as well be written in a foreign language, but what
strikes me is the etymology given for "catkin": "from its resemblance to a
cat's tail."

In other words, the starting semantic point is not something that falls
into a pile but something long and thin, something protruding. Hence, e.g.
meaning "6: "a protruding of blackthorn, etc. running into a field from the
fence."

Of particular interest is meaning #5: "a chip of wood, a small twig or
branch used for firewood." I would suggest that the "small twig or branch
used for firewood" has the primary meaning (something long and thin, akin
in shape to a catkin). And "a chip of wood" is the secondary meaning,
developed from the wood to be used in kindling a fire.

This "chip of wood" is evidently the immediate ancestor of _chad_ in its
present, information-age usage. So the ultimate etymology of _chat/chad_
seems to be no more remote than the word for "cat"--with the imagery coming
not from the whole animal but just its tail (thence" "twig"; thence "chip
of wood," thence "a punched out chip-like piece of paper."

Once _chat/chad_ received its meaning "a chip of wood," this new meaning
was extended to other small objects ....

----------

I agree (tentatively/speculatively) with the general idea. I think the
original sense was "catkin", in French and in English: I am not sure
whether this comes from a likeness to the cat's tail or from a likeness to
a whole cat or kitten [cf. the distinct botanical "cat-tail"], but the
picture was "small [elongated] fluffy thing". This was generalized to
things which are like catkins: mostly small things, some of them elongated,
not necessarily fluffy. Perhaps the sense of elongation outlived the sense
of fluffiness (which was crucial to the original name "catkin" or
French/English "chat" I think), but eventually all that remained was
"small". By the time "chad" (probably) came to mean "punched paper chip" I
think it just meant "small item of which there are many" -- like wood chips
or (pieces of) gravel. The earliest chads (= paper chips) were probably not
(very much) elongated; I speculate that the original application was in
telegraphy punched tape or perhaps in perforation of paper in other
applications, such as postage stamps (apparently "chad" has been used in
connection with perforated postage stamps, but I don't know the chronology).

Alternative proposed derivations along the same lines would have "chad" <
"chaff" [alteration unexplained, but with a possible parallel in the EDD],
or "chad" < "chat(t)" = "louse" (another small numerous thing). One can
also picture "chad" < "shard", I suppose.

[There is plenty of documentation of "chip" as an exact synonym of "chad"
(modern sense, countable), and there is at least anecdotal evidence of
"chit" as a third alternative -- possibly a conflation of "chip" with
"chat"/"chad", although "chit" also exists with senses somewhat parallel to
those of "chat" (and possibly with a similar "cat"/"kitten" origin).]

["Chat" = "louse" likely comes from "chattel" = "possessions"/"livestock"
(cf. "cattle"), and not from "cat", I think. Another sense of "chat"
(obsolete, OED), = "provisions", probably has the "chattel" origin too, I
think.]

"Chat" = "[make] conversation" and "chad"/"chat" = "bird" (applied to
various species) probably come from another origin, "chatter". "Chat" =
"vulva"/"female pudenda" is transparently from French, originally = "cat"
(but here the "fluffy"/"furry" sense is preserved, I think). There is also
"chad" = "shad" (of obscure ultimate origin itself). I doubt these have any
application here.

A perhaps far-fetched possibility (but not as ridiculous as the "Mr.
Chadless" story IMHO): the adjective "chatty" once meant "dirty" (original
meaning: "lousy") (e.g., Farmer and Henley, ca. 1900). The teletype room
for example might have been referred to as "chatty" = "dirty"/"dusty"/"full
of chaff" -- thus "chad" = "dust-like or chaff-like paper residues".
["Chatty" will be indistinguishable from "chaddy" in some speech, I think.]

An even farther-fetched etymology: from St. Chad. The OED and other sources
give "chad-pennies" and "chad-farthings" = "[small coin] contributions for
upkeep of St. Chad's Cathedral [Lichfield]". Where did one deposit these
small coins? In the "chad-box" at the cathedral, I guess. The waste
receptacle on an early teletype device might have resembled this box, and
the contents (small discs) might have resembled the coins .... (^_^) [<--
NB: The smiley-face indicates that I don't intend this part entirely
seriously.]

Finally, for those who like the "Mr. Chadless" etymology, I offer (in
addition to a fine bridge for sale) an alternative back-formation from
"Chadband" (a much more common name than "Chadless"!) (a Dickens character
name, used occasionally as a common noun ["a canting unctuous hypocrite" --
OED]): if the paper teletype tape (invented by a certain Mr. Chadband, no
doubt) is a "chad band", then the paper fragments must be .... (^_^) (^_^)

I tentatively prefer a "small object" derivation myself, much like the one
presented by Gerald Cohen above.

-- Doug Wilson


From tonyglaser at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Nov 29 01:28:41 2000
From: tonyglaser at MINDSPRING.COM (Tony Glaser)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 20:28:41 -0500
Subject: Blessed
In-Reply-To: <200011290053.QAA27836@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.202841.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm new to this list, and am not a professional in the area of
dialects or linguistics, just an interested layman, so please forgive
me if I'm intruding or if my question is inappropriate.

I lived in Montserrat in the Eastern Caribbean for many years, and
occasionally heard people (English/Montserrat creole speakers) use
the word "blessed" to mean "injured" - derived from the French
"blessé" (although quite why it should appear in the English-speaking
Caribbean I'm not sure).

A couple of years ago, here in Charleston, SC, I was speaking to a
middle-aged black lady (a patient of mine - I'm a family doctor) and
asked her about a bump on her knee. "Oh", she said, "I got blessed".
I asked her what she said, not sure if I had heard it correctly; and
she looked rather embarrassed and tried to change the subject, but
eventually admitted that that was what she had said, and that it
meant she had got injured in a minor way. I asked where it came from
and if other people used the word, but she didn't have any
information to offer. She was not a classic rural/Sea Island
Gullah/Geechee speaker (and please don't ask me what the difference
between the two!), although I think she was from the relatively
suburban parts of James Island or possibly Johns Island.

I've looked in Gullah dictionaries and asked various people about
this, but can find no reference at all to the use of the word
"blessed" in this way.

I would be interested in any input!

Tony Glaser


From RFelton at ISA.ORG  Wed Nov 29 13:14:32 2000
From: RFelton at ISA.ORG (Felton, Robert)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:14:32 -0500
Subject: flogged that one ...
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.081432.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's one I've never heard, and I thought it might interest some of you.
Regarding a much-discussed editorial topic hereabouts, a colleague said we'd
"... flogged that one like a rented mule."  Ouch!

Robert M. Felton, P.E.
Technical Editor, InTech Magazine
ISA - The Instrumentation, Systems, and Automation Society
67 Alexander Drive
Research Triangle Park, NC 27709

E-Mail: rfelton at isa.org
Phone: (919) 990-9223
Fax: (919) 549-8288


From drew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Wed Nov 29 13:39:29 2000
From: drew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:39:29 -0500
Subject: flogged that one ...
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.083929.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Felton, Robert" wrote:
>
> Here's one I've never heard, and I thought it might interest some of you.
> Regarding a much-discussed editorial topic hereabouts, a colleague said we'd
> "... flogged that one like a rented mule."  Ouch!

An acquaintance from Alabama uses the phrase "beat it like a red-haired
stepchild" in a similar context (also in the context of a metaphorical
punitive beating).

Drew.Danielson at cmu.edu


From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Nov 29 13:28:39 2000
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:28:39 +0100
Subject: Blessed
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.142839.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> A couple of years ago, here in Charleston, SC, I was speaking to a
> middle-aged black lady (a patient of mine - I'm a family doctor) and
> asked her about a bump on her knee. "Oh", she said, "I got blessed".
> I asked her what she said, not sure if I had heard it correctly; and
> she looked rather embarrassed and tried to change the subject, but
> eventually admitted that that was what she had said, and that it
> meant she had got injured in a minor way. I asked where it came from
> and if other people used the word, but she didn't have any
> information to offer.
> Tony Glaser

DARE does not have an entry for blessed, though it does have one for
blessing or blessing-out in the sense of scolding or tongue-lashing. You've
probably looked at the OED entry, but just in case you haven't here it is:

�  bless, v.2 Obs. Also 4­6 blyss(e, bliss.
[a. F. blesse-r:–OF. blecier to injure, wound: cf. bleche. Often associated
with bless v.1, either humorously or in ignorance. (The sense of the second
quotation is doubtful: cf. bless v.3)]
To wound, hurt; to beat, thrash, drub.
[c1325 Coer de L. 546 Whenne I hym had a strok i-fet, And wolde have blyssyd
hym bet.
c1350 Will. Palerne 1192 [He] blessed so wiÞ his bri_t bront _ aboute in
eche side Þat, what rink so he rau_t _ he ros neuer after.]
1526 Skelton Magnyf. 1641, I have hym coryed, beten and blyst.
1545 R. Ascham Toxoph. (Arb.) 145 As thoughe they woulde tourne about and
blysse all the feelde.
1575 J. Still Gamm. Gurton iii. iii, Tarry, thou knave..I shall make these
hands bless thee.
1577 Hellowes Gueuara’s Fam. Ep. 237 When he did leuell to shoote, he
blessed himselfe with his peece, and killed them with the pellat.
1612 Shelton Quix. I. iii. 173 That of the Battle..when they bless’d your
Worship’s Cheek Teeth.

I'm curious to see a proper answer to your question.

Paul
_________________________________________
Paul Frank
English translation from German, French,
Chinese, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese
Busines, Finance and Corporate Law
Snailmail: 74500 Thollon-les-Memises, France
PaulFrank at post.harvard.edu | Fax +1 509-752-9444


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 14:34:01 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:34:01 -0500
Subject: Blessed
In-Reply-To: <003801c05a08$7dd62bc0$7af5f9c1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.093401.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > ... "Oh", she said, "I got blessed".
> > ... it meant she had got injured in a minor way. ...

>... the OED entry ...
>
>† bless, v.2 Obs. ...

>To wound, hurt; to beat, thrash, drub. ...

"Bless" in this sense is an old ENGLISH word (although right now I find it
only in the OED), so maybe it's no mystery that it occurs in the Anglophone
US and Caribbean. Apparently it's not quite as obsolete as the OED folks
think/thought. Or conceivably it was reintroduced from French (Montserrat
for example has had some French contact: apparently the island was even
taken [and held briefly] by the French three times in the 17th-18th centuries).

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 14:55:46 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:55:46 -0500
Subject: flogged that one ...
In-Reply-To: <003F1E4A122FD41186A50008C7B1AE520101CE9E@ISACS01>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.095546.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Here's one I've never heard, and I thought it might interest some of you.
>Regarding a much-discussed editorial topic hereabouts, a colleague said we'd
>"... flogged that one like a rented mule."

I'm familiar with "We've beaten/flogged [the subject] to death." Also
"We've beaten [the subject] into the ground." All meaning "We've discussed
[the subject] excessively."

I can't find any of these in any of my dictionaries right now. [I don't
have DARE or HDAS; I have a superstition about buying defective or
incomplete books.]

The OED shows the verb "beat" = "discuss" ("obsolete" [?]), and the clearly
related adjective "beaten" = "trite"/"worn".

A possibly related expression (I can't find this one in the dictionaries
either): "flog [a job/task]" = "devote excessive attention/time/effort to
[a job/task]". I've heard/used this in the sense of stretching out a
project (by doing superfluous work rather than by idling), perhaps to avoid
a less pleasant subsequent project, or to ward off a layoff, or to increase
income (if paid by the hour).

-- Doug Wilson


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Wed Nov 29 16:03:01 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:03:01 EST
Subject: 32.20
In-Reply-To: <199906230310.UAA20318@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.110301.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        A message to another list asks the following question: August
Wilson's _ The Piano Lesson _ is a play that I use in several
classes, but it contains [a line] that continue[s] to puzzle me and I
am hoping that you can help me understand them.  Boy Willie
says to Berneice, "It's got to come better than this
thirty-two-twenty."  What does "thirty-two-twenty" mean? [II:v]
(This may refer to some type of weapon, but there's no other
reference in the play to Boy Willie's carrying one.)

        I have replied, noting the lyrics to Robert Johnson's "32.20 Blues",
where it refers to a gun of some sort, but noting also that I did not
find the word in the OED, DAE, or DAmer.  Does anyone know it?  Is
there another meaning that's more appropriate?

GAT


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Wed Nov 29 17:00:14 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:00:14 +0100
Subject: Woonerf
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.180014.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

I also subscribe to several urban/community planning email lists (low traffic, thankfully), and came across the word "woonerf." The Dutch word is wide-spread in that field.

http://www.apbp.org/velophoto/sld022.htm

"In the 1970s the Dutch pioneered the 'living street' or 'living yard' called the Woonerf. These were residential streets where vehicle traffic and speeds were drastically reduced and priority was returned to the people that lived in the street. The same concept has been applied to community shopping areas, the Winkelerf."

Also found at:

http://www.arbeer.demon.co.uk/soc-asp/housing/res5.htm
http://www.etsc.be/new_updoct98.htm
http://www.stockport.gov.uk/newsmbc/Divisions/Chief_Executives/Policy_Planning/Health/Himp2/Appendix2.htm
http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~cpw/abstracts/protrans.html#%2014


From Amcolph at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 29 17:01:12 2000
From: Amcolph at AOL.COM (Ray Ott)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:01:12 EST
Subject: 32.20
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.120112.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

the 32-20 cartidge was designed for the model 1873 Winchester lever action
rifle.  Colt subsequently produced a single action revolver which chambered
this cartridge, and was fairly popular--probably this is the gun alluded,
which would by then have been obsolete and derisible.  The 32 is the caliber
(.32" dia.) and the 20 is the number of grains of black powder in the
cartridge.

Ray Ott


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 17:07:25 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:07:25 -0500
Subject: 32.20
In-Reply-To: <12C61917179@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.120725.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Apparently ".32-20" is a cartridge designation:

http://www.earp.com/32.html

http://community.webshots.com/photo/1240679/1240821

http://community.webshots.com/photo/1240679/1247196

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt3220.htm

I suppose in the blues songs it means a pistol appropriate for this cartridge.

-- Doug Wilson


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Wed Nov 29 17:13:34 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:13:34 +0000
Subject: chad is like fish...
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.171334.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> We've seen countable chad ('pregnant chads'), mass chad ('lots of
> chad'), and now zero-morpheme plural chad, as indicated by the verb
> agreement in the last sentence below.
>
>
> More than 2 million ballots uncounted nationwide
>
> By David Ho
>
> Nov. 28, 2000 | WASHINGTON (AP)
>
> [paragraphs deleted]
> Gore supporters say the problem in Florida largely can be traced to
> paper punch-card ballots, which have added "chad," dimpled,
> swinging, pregnant and otherwise, to the national lexicon. Chad are
> the tiny pieces of paper that pop out of a ballot when a voter
> chooses a candidate.
>
>
> Dr M Lynne Murphy
> Lecturer in Linguistics
> School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
> University of Sussex
> Brighton BN1 9QH
> UK
>
> phone +44-(0)1273-678844
> fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 17:34:55 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:34:55 -0500
Subject: chad is like fish...
In-Reply-To: <E141Anf-0002FW-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.123455.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 05:13 PM 11/29/00 +0000, you wrote:
> > We've seen countable chad ('pregnant chads'), mass chad ('lots of
> > chad'), and now zero-morpheme plural chad, as indicated by the verb
> > agreement in the last sentence below.
> >
> >... Chad are
> > the tiny pieces of paper that pop out of a ballot when a voter
> > chooses a candidate.

AFAIK, this is a recent error. I've not seen any authoritative or informed
reference (pre-election) using "chad" as a true plural (e.g., "two chad").

Actually, "chad" seems to resemble "hair": "one hair", "two hairs", "a pile
of hair".

Some poorly-informed (or misquoted?) 'experts' on the Web and in the media
recently have asserted that "chad" is like "sheep" ("one sheep", "two
sheep"): this seems to arise from a confusion between a plural and a "mass
noun". Some also have stated confidently (absolutely falsely, of course)
that "chad" cannot be used as a countable noun at all.

When the press gets in a hurry, any loud voice will do.

-- Doug Wilson


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov 29 17:35:23 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:35:23 -0500
Subject: a horse a piece
In-Reply-To: <E140VHZ-0000lw-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.123523.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:53 PM 11/27/00 +0000, you wrote:
> > I am interested in phrases that signify (usually qualitative) similarity
> > or equality.  Examples are "a horse a piece", "six of one, half dozen of
> > the other", or "the same difference".  I have an (obvious) feeling that
> > "a horse a piece" has its origins somewhere in equestrian culture, but
> > as a newbie to dialectology, I have not been able to confirm or trace it
> > with the resources at my disposal.
>
>I've never heard 'a horse a piece', but I've been thinking about another
>item that might fit into this set:  "It's all the same to me."  The
>interesting thing about this and "same difference" (well, interesting to
>me at least) is that while the speaker is claiming that the things are the
>same, they are acknowledging that they are objectively different.  I've
>been interested in these phrases for what they indicate about people's
>attitudes toward the synonymy of expressions.  (For example, you might
>tell me that the phrases in this set mean different things, but it's all
>the same to me.)
>
>Lynne

Ditto for "all one"--sounds like a mass noun created out of countables, but
it's really about differences that aren't so different:  "It's all one to
me."  (Can you say "They're all one/all the same to me"?)


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 29 18:02:10 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:02:10 EST
Subject: Smoothie; Chad
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.130210.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SMOOTHIE

   BETTER HOMES & GARDENS has a page of recipes listed in the issue (like GOURMET has) and I've copied them.  I noticed this in August 1952, pg. 67, col. 3:

   _Beverages_
(...)
Peach Smoothie...86

   This could be our first "smoothie" that actually is one.  Frozen yogurt smoothies were popular from 1977--25 years later!

--------------------------------------------------------
CHAD

   A good place to look is the EDINBURGH JOURNAL OF SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY AND PHOTOGRAPHIC ART.  See the www.nypl.org entry.  If "chad" is from Scotland, the term should be in there somewhere.  Unfortunately, the NYPL has the journal up to 1942 only, although the catalog entry states 1950.
   More "chad" from NIST I thought was attached but will be sent separately.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 29 18:02:48 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:02:48 EST
Subject: Fwd: Chad Info
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.130248.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FYI--Barry Popik
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From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Nov 29 18:06:59 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:06:59 -0500
Subject: Smoothie; Chad
In-Reply-To: <74.557ee1e.27569ea3@aol.com>; from Bapopik@AOL.COM on Wed,
 Nov 29, 2000 at 01:02:10PM -0500
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.130659.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>    BETTER HOMES & GARDENS has a page of recipes listed in the issue (like GOURMET has) and I've copied them.  I noticed this in August 1952, pg. 67, col. 3:
>
>    _Beverages_
> (...)
> Peach Smoothie...86

Terrific! Was there a recipe attached to help determine what this actually was?

Jesse Sheidlower


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Nov 29 18:11:17 2000
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:11:17 -0500
Subject: "Don't block the box"
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.131117.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ADS listers

The expression "Don't block the box" is used in New York City as a warning to motorists to avoid entering a busy intersection that they cannot get through before the light changes to red.  The city warns, on signs and on the radio, that there will be severe penalties if one is ticketed for this.  At some intersections, "the box" is marked off with white lines painted in that area.  The idea is to prevent gridlock, a particular problem in NYC, esp. during the holiday season.

Is this expression used in other US cities?  Is "the box" in the sense of 'intersection' used in expressions aside from this context?

Thanks in advance for any input,

Frank Abate
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 29 05:22:20 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:22:20 +0800
Subject: chad is like fish...
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001129121949.00aa5250@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.132220.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:34 PM -0500 11/29/00, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>At 05:13 PM 11/29/00 +0000, you wrote:
>>  > We've seen countable chad ('pregnant chads'), mass chad ('lots of
>>>  chad'), and now zero-morpheme plural chad, as indicated by the verb
>>>  agreement in the last sentence below.
>>>
>>>... Chad are
>>>  the tiny pieces of paper that pop out of a ballot when a voter
>>>  chooses a candidate.
>
>AFAIK, this is a recent error. I've not seen any authoritative or informed
>reference (pre-election) using "chad" as a true plural (e.g., "two chad").
>
>Actually, "chad" seems to resemble "hair": "one hair", "two hairs", "a pile
>of hair".
>
>Some poorly-informed (or misquoted?) 'experts' on the Web and in the media
>recently have asserted that "chad" is like "sheep" ("one sheep", "two
>sheep"): this seems to arise from a confusion between a plural and a "mass
>noun". Some also have stated confidently (absolutely falsely, of course)
>that "chad" cannot be used as a countable noun at all.
>
Wasn't that a Dr. Seuss book?
"One Chad, Two Chad, Red Chad, Blue Chad"
--where "red" and "blue", as you'll recall, designate Republican and
Democratic on the network electoral maps.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 29 05:29:56 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:29:56 +0800
Subject: chad is like fish...
In-Reply-To: <E141Anf-0002FW-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.132956.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

edible too.  I just got this e-come-on:
=========
EAT A CHAD? You've heard about Pregnant Chad, Dimpled Chad,
Dented Chad and people even EATING Chad. Now, you can own 6
AUTHENTIC FLORIDA PUNCH-OUT BALLOT CARDS and a snack bag of
those tasty "Chad" for only $9.95
http://www.1000freethings.com/ballots CLICK FOR DETAILS
=========
Note the 'mass plural' ("those tasty 'Chad'").  But if you go to the
site offering to sell you these high-fiber, low-fat goodies, you'll
see they're sold as mass items ("pieces of chad") and plurals
("election chads"), but not as 'mass plurals'.  Maybe you have to pay
extra for that.

larry


From groberts at ANSWERLOGIC.COM  Wed Nov 29 18:19:47 2000
From: groberts at ANSWERLOGIC.COM (Greg Roberts)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:19:47 -0500
Subject: "Don't block the box"
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.131947.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Similar signs are in Washington, DC.  From my own experience, the expression
is used solely in the context described.

Greg Roberts

<Frank Abate>
The expression "Don't block the box" is used in New York City as a warning
to motorists to avoid entering a busy intersection that they cannot get
through before the light changes to red.  The city warns, on signs and on
the radio, that there will be severe penalties if one is ticketed for this.
At some intersections, "the box" is marked off with white lines painted in
that area.  The idea is to prevent gridlock, a particular problem in NYC,
esp. during the holiday season.

Is this expression used in other US cities?  Is "the box" in the sense of
'intersection' used in expressions aside from this context?
</Frank Abate>


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From casnow at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Wed Nov 29 18:24:14 2000
From: casnow at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Carol Snow)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:24:14 -0800
Subject: "Don't block the box"
In-Reply-To: <001701c05a2f$c4ff43c0$9b01a8c0@fabate>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.102414.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The expression, the intent, (and to some extent the white lines) are
used identically in San Francisco, though I believe this is a
statewide phenomenon.


>ADS listers
>
>The expression "Don't block the box" is used in New York City as a
>warning to motorists to avoid entering a busy intersection that they
>cannot get through before the light changes to red.  The city warns,
>on signs and on the radio, that there will be severe penalties if
>one is ticketed for this.  At some intersections, "the box" is
>marked off with white lines painted in that area.  The idea is to
>prevent gridlock, a particular problem in NYC, esp. during the
>holiday season.
>
>Is this expression used in other US cities?  Is "the box" in the
>sense of 'intersection' used in expressions aside from this context?
>
>Thanks in advance for any input,
>
>Frank Abate

--

-----------------------
Carol Snow
Student Affairs Officer:  CogSci/EnvSci
349 Campbell Hall/510-642-2628
casnow at uclink4.berkeley.edu

drop-in advising hrs.: 9:30-12  & 1-4 daily

http://ls.berkeley.edu/ugis/cogsci/
http://ls.berkeley.edu/ugis/environ/

Mail to:
Office of Undergraduate & Interdisciplinary Studies (UGIS)
301 Campbell Hall
Berkeley, CA 94720-2922
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From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 18:34:19 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:34:19 -0500
Subject: chad is like fish...
In-Reply-To: <p04320403b64a426f2e6d@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.133419.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Wasn't that a Dr. Seuss book?
>"One Chad, Two Chad, Red Chad, Blue Chad"

That was "shad", I think.

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 18:42:28 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:42:28 -0500
Subject: chad is like fish...
In-Reply-To: <p04320404b64a43d78316@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.134228.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>edible too.  I just got this e-come-on:
>=========
>EAT A CHAD? You've heard about Pregnant Chad, Dimpled Chad,
>Dented Chad and people even EATING Chad. Now, you can own 6
>AUTHENTIC FLORIDA PUNCH-OUT BALLOT CARDS and a snack bag of
>those tasty "Chad" for only $9.95 ...

Chadbandism during the campaigns.

Chadbanditry at election time.

And now every swinging chad is jumping on the chadbandwagon.

-- Doug Wilson


From derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Nov 29 18:50:24 2000
From: derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM (Derrick Chapman)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:50:24 -0500
Subject: Quoz!
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.135024.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Other than the info given in Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, is
there anything more known regarding the "Quoz!" catchphrase of Victorian
England?


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Wed Nov 29 18:49:52 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:49:52 -0500
Subject: "Don't block the box"
In-Reply-To: <001701c05a2f$c4ff43c0$9b01a8c0@fabate>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.134952.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Frank Abate wrote:

> Is this expression used in other US cities?  Is "the box" in the sense
> of 'intersection' used in expressions aside from this context?

In Boston, not currently; but in recent weeks, there have been letters to
the editor of the Boston Globe exhorting Boston to adopt the 'don't block
the box' rules of New York City, to help keep traffic flowing
here. Lord knows we can use all the help we can get.

So, yes, I've seen it, but in a New York City context. Hopefully it will
get adopted here.

--- Steve K.


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Wed Nov 29 18:52:57 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:52:57 -0500
Subject: chad is like fish...
In-Reply-To: <p04320404b64a43d78316@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.135257.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And more:

In today's Boston Globe, last paragraph of "Big Dig finance plan
likely to get US nod":

--Natsios said project officials spent hours going over the new plan with
federal officials, who in the end required no changes. ''They found no
chads in our plan,'' he said.--

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/334/metro/Big_Dig_finance_plan_likely_to_get_US_nod+.shtml


--- Steve K.


From jeclapp at WANS.NET  Wed Nov 29 19:12:18 2000
From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:12:18 -0500
Subject: Past-Subjunctive WAS in counter-to-fact IF clauses
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.141218.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold Zwicky wrote:
>
> ron butters:
>  >The point is that WERE is the present subjunctive but WAS is the
>  >past subjunctive. Since the time is past, I'd use the past
>  >subjunctive. Examples:
>
>  >WHAT IF NIXON ACTUALLY WAS THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?
>  >WHAT IF NADER ACTUALLY WERE THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?
>
>  >My memory is that this is what the old-timey rule-books say.
>
> that's what fowler 1926 says.

I don't see that.  Fowler's 1926 entry on "Subjunctives" is not easy
reading, so I could be missing something--in which case I hope you will
point out and explicate the relevant passage--but I just don't see
anything in there about the appropriate verb form for referring to
hypothetical circumstances contrary to fact in the past.  Fowler is
mainly concerned with the misguided use of "were" instead of the
indicative "was" in straightforward conditionals (referring to past
circumstances that might be true)--a product of confusion "possible only
in an age to which the grammar of the subjunctive is not natural but
artificial."  As an example of such inappropriate use of "were" he
gives:  "If this _were_ so, it was in self-defence (sense, _was_)."

> it doesn't fit my judgments at all.  for me, the nixon sentence
> is merely conditional, not specifically counterfactual...

Fowler would concur.

> the specifically counterfactual would be
>   WHAT IF NIXON ACTUALLY HAD BEEN THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?
>
> this is the system described in the big quirk et al. grammar.

Or to construct perhaps a clearer example, we would say

     "I don't know where he was at the time, but if he _was_ at home
     then he could not have been involved in the brawl in the bar."

But

     "Unfortunately, he was in the bar; if he _had been_ at home he
     could not have been involved in the brawl."

Fowler doesn't say what verb he would use for the underscored phrase in
the second sentence, but in various ways he seems to rule out both "was"
and "were," which seems to leave "had been" as the only possibility.  So
I think he agrees with you (and Quirk) in all respects.

>
> everybody seems to agree that the nixon sentence with WERE (and
> past reference) is out.  but there seem to be two different
> schemes for the counterfactual in the past.  (plus the innovative,
> and still non-standard, counterfactual with WOULD: WOULD HAVE BEEN.)

Well, among you, me, Fowler, Quirk, and the bamboo tree, I only see one
scheme for the counterfactual past: "had been."

I do note that the OED classifies "were" as "pa. subj." (entry for "be,"
def. 7).  But that appears to be more a classification of the *form* of
the word than of its usage; the OED's examples for this "past
subjunctive" include such clearly present-sense uses as "Would I were
there!"  Cf. this citation (in def. 8) from Richard III (1483), included
to illustrate the point that "the common literary form [for the past
participle] in 14-15th c. was 'be', before the general acceptance of the
northern 'ben, bene'," but incidentally illustrating how English deals
with a past circumstance contrary to fact:  "As...if this Act had not be
made."

James E. Clapp


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Wed Nov 29 19:11:56 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:11:56 +0100
Subject: chad is like fish...
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.201156.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

I've hesitated to post this, but I would just like to point out, deep down near the
end of the for-what-it's-worth column, that the movie "Charlie's Angels" has Tom
Green in the character of "Chad." In two scenes in the movie, he quizzes Drew Barrymore's
character about her mysterious (secret agent) behavior when she leaves suddenly.

He questions her with something like, "Was it The Chad? It was The Chad, wasn't it?"


I'm not claiming anything, just noting that his curious third-person usage of his
own name in a popular movie comes coincidentally during our chad days of November. The
French do that, with the article+name (La Whoever), though I can't think of any
examples right now.


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 19:14:58 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:14:58 -0500
Subject: Quoz!
In-Reply-To: <NEBBIIIFELLOODMDIMIIGEGLCKAA.derrickchapman@mindspring.com >
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.141458.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is an entry in the OED, and there's one in Farmer and Henley.

Apparently a variant/alteration of "quiz", meaning an odd-looking person or
thing; also used as a nonspecific interjection; apparently popular in the
1790's.

Partridge likens this interjection to the mid-20th-century "sez you".

-- Doug Wilson


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 29 19:25:15 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:25:15 -0600
Subject: Smoothie; Chad
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.132515.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>SMOOTHIE
>
>    BETTER HOMES & GARDENS has a page of recipes listed in the issue (like
>GOURMET has) and I've copied them.  I noticed this in August 1952, pg. 67,
>col. 3:
>
>    _Beverages_
>(...)
>Peach Smoothie...86
>
>    This could be our first "smoothie" that actually is one.  Frozen yogurt
>smoothies were popular from 1977--25 years later!

As I recall (and here memory might be playing tricks), it was the
convienence store chain 7-11 that advertised smoothies, and sent the word
into general circulation. I do remember one of their TV ad campaigns where
they had an actor who greatly reminds me of "Larry" on the Letterman show,
who'd give the 'Oh thank Heaven for 7-11" slogan, tho' they were advertising
smoothies before then. This would have been the mid 70s I think.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Wed Nov 29 19:31:24 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:31:24 +0000
Subject: Quoz!
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.193124.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Other than the info given in Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, is
> there anything more known regarding the "Quoz!" catchphrase of Victorian
> England?
>

Well, I can tell you it's not a legal Scrabble word in England.  Too bad!!

Lynne


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Nov 29 20:30:27 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:30:27 -0500
Subject: teacher's query
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.153027.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My son's 5th grade teacher and some of her students have asked me about
the preferability of the pronunciations for _detail_, n., especially
the stress.  Some of the kids noticed it in the news telecast last
night.

MW3   de'tail   'de tail
RU2   de'tail    'de tail
WBD  de'tail    'de tail     (See usage note below)

Pronunciation of the noun is devided: de'tail, 'de tail.  The first is
older; the second especially common in situations where the word is
used a great deal (army life, architecture, and other specialized
uses).   ...

Kenyon & Knott  'de tail   de'tail
Thorndike-Barnhart Comprehensive Desk   de'tail   'de tail   (See usage
note below)

The formal pronunciation is de'tail; informal usage is divided but the
pronunciation is likely to be 'de tail.

Is there a preference?  Also is the vowel in the first syllable i or ee?

Thanks
David Barnhart


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 29 21:53:42 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:53:42 -0600
Subject: teacher's query
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.155342.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For what it's worth, it follows the pattern of 'concert' in my speech. The
noun is stressed on the first syllable (DEE-tail), the verb on the second
(duh-TAIL). As I think about it, actually, the noun can go either way.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 29 22:04:31 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:04:31 -0600
Subject: Smoothie/Slurpie
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.160431.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I wrote:
>As I recall (and here memory might be playing tricks), it was the
>convienence store chain 7-11 that advertised smoothies, and sent the word
>into general circulation.

My memory was playing tricks. It still might, too. But the 7-11 thing, is
and remains a Slurpie.

Apologies.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov 29 22:19:43 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:19:43 -0500
Subject: teacher's query
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.171943.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:53 PM 11/29/00 -0600, you wrote:
>For what it's worth, it follows the pattern of 'concert' in my speech. The
>noun is stressed on the first syllable (DEE-tail), the verb on the second
>(duh-TAIL). As I think about it, actually, the noun can go either way.
>___________________________________________________________________________
>__________
>Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

A similar set is AD-dress/ad-DRESS.  The verb (for me) is always ad-DRESS,
but the noun can go either way; prosody of the sentence usually dictates
which way I go:  What's your AD-dress?  Give me your
name and ad-DRESS.

I think the formal/informal distinction is less common, on "detail" too
(pace the dictionary).  But on the vowel distinction, I assume David is
thinking of schwa (or maybe lax /I/) vs. tense /i/ ?

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Nov 30 00:03:07 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:03:07 -0800
Subject: Past-Subjunctive WAS in counter-to-fact IF clauses
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.160307.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

james e. clapp:
 >Fowler's 1926 entry on "Subjunctives" is not easy reading, so I
 >could be missing something--in which case I hope you will point out
 >and explicate the relevant passage--but I just don't see anything in
 >there about the appropriate verb form for referring to hypothetical
 >circumstances contrary to fact in the past.

i see that i read fowler too hastily (it does takes some considerable
care to understand the passage in question).  disregard my previous
comment on this topic.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Nov 30 00:46:15 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:46:15 -0800
Subject: chad is like fish...
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.164615.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

douglas wilson:
 [quotation provided by lynne murphy:]
 >> >... Chad are
 >> > the tiny pieces of paper that pop out of a ballot when a voter
 >> > chooses a candidate.

 >AFAIK, this is a recent error. I've not seen any authoritative or
 >informed reference (pre-election) using "chad" as a true plural
 >(e.g., "two chad").

i don't have any pre-election citations either.  but i suspect that
this usage is, for some people, now their normal one (even if it
does diverge from earlier usages).  unmarked-plural "chad" can
easily arise from the very many situations in which "chad" could be
understood as either a (singular) mass noun *or* as an unmarked-plural
count noun: "The chad just seemed to pile up"; "We noticed a lot of
chad" etc.  and an unmarked-plural count noun is not such an odd
hypothesis, since a fair number of unmarked-plural count nouns have
marked-plural alternatives ("reindeer" and "reindeers", for instance),
so that someone who hears plural "chads" might well think it's just
a variant of plural "chad".

the point is people will hear idiolects with count CHAD only,
idiolects with mass CHAD only, and idiolects with both usages.  from
this input it is possible to come to an analysis of CHAD as an
unmarked-plural count noun.  (this requires not hearing some
counterexamples - like "Lots of chad is caught in the machine" - or
not appreciating their significance, or simply disregarding them on
the grounds that, after all, folks don't all talk the same.)  From
the point of view of the earlier usages, this usage is an "error",
in the sense that it's an innovation, but it's not necessarily a
slip of the tongue or a mangled form resulting from some hare-brained
consciously formulated hypothesis.

 >Actually, "chad" seems to resemble "hair": "one hair", "two hairs",
 >"a pile of hair".

i usually use E-MAIL/EMAIL as a parallel for CHAD used both as a
(marked-plural) count noun and as a mass noun.  so far as i know, if
you have count uses of CHAD, you also have mass uses, but not vice
versa.  but almost all english speakers have both a mass noun HAIR and
a count noun HAIR, period.  it's also true, i think, that the mass
and count E-MAIL and CHAD don't differ in their usage in any way
except their mass vs. count syntax, but that mass and count HAIR
differ in quite a number of ways - "head of hair/*hairs", "comb one's
hair/*hairs", etc.

 >Some poorly-informed (or misquoted?) 'experts' on the Web and in the
 >media recently have asserted that "chad" is like "sheep" ("one
 >sheep", "two sheep"): this seems to arise from a confusion between a
 >plural and a "mass noun".

indeed, explicit pronouncements have often been strikingly misguided,
for this very reason.  but i don't see any reason to assume that
unmarked-plural "chad" could arise only from such misguiding theorizing.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 30 00:56:33 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:56:33 EST
Subject: Grunions & Actoids
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.195633.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GRUNIONS

   From NEW YORK PRESS, November 29-December 5, 2000, pg. 2, col. 2:

   The annual _New York_ "expose" on ecstasy use by Silicon Alley grunions...

(Grunions?  What happened to grunts?  OED has "grunion," but it's a fish--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
ACTOID

   From NEW YORK PRESS, November 29-December 5, 2000, pg. 29, col. 2, caption about a character in Alan Ayckbourn's new play, COMIC POTENTIAL:

   Dee, as a robot "actoid," makes a performance of enormous technical difficulty seem easy.

--------------------------------------------------------
MARY HAD A LITTLE LAMB

   RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, January 1935, pg. 33, has a menu from WRIGHT'S QUICK LUNCH (Newport Beach) House of "Wisecracks," which include:

MARY HAD A
LITTLE LAMB
WHAT WILL
YOU HAVE

WEATHER FORECAST
CHILI TODAY
AND TOMORROW

LOOK OUT FOR OUR
   DOGS
THEY ARE THE WURST KIND

Making Love is like
   APPLE PIE
a Little Crust & a lot of
   APPLESAUCE

ROSES ARE RED
VIOLETS BLUE
HORSES NECK
  DO YOU?

--------------------------------------------------------
SELL THE SIZZLE

   From THE ESTIATOR (NYC; it's half-Greek to me), August 1940, pg. 13, col. 2:

_The Sizzle Sells The Steak_
   It's the sizzle that sells the steak and not the cow.  You never saw a cow walking through a restaurant taking orders for her shank bone.  But what happens when a waiter walks through with a steak that sizzles?  First the customer hears it, then he smells it and then he sees it.  If he has the money he will order the steak instead of a hamburger that fizzles.


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 30 01:24:43 2000
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:24:43 EST
Subject: teacher's query
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.202443.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I generarlly follow the stress on the first syllable for nouns and on the
second syllable for verbs (generalizing from similar patterns, such as  RE
search,/re SEARCH; DE fect/de FECT, RE ject/re JECT,  MIS fire/mis
FIRE)--hence, DE tail/de TAIL. ) I've also heard RE tard/re TARD and, in some
dialects,  IN vite (for invitation) /IN vite and .   I'm not sure of the
rule, though.
              PAT

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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 29 13:15:31 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:15:31 +0800
Subject: Grunions & Actoids
In-Reply-To: <15.c6ae803.2756ffc1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.211531.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>GRUNIONS
>
>    From NEW YORK PRESS, November 29-December 5, 2000, pg. 2, col. 2:
>
>    The annual _New York_ "expose" on ecstasy use by Silicon Alley grunions...
>
>(Grunions?  What happened to grunts?  OED has "grunion," but it's a fish--ed.)

Not just ANY fish, though.  Grunion are notorious for popping up in
huge bunches in the ocean at night, and more specifically (as the
AHD4 reminds us), a grunion is "a small fish that spawns at night
along beaches during high tides of spring and summer"--I remember the
red tides in southern California attributed to the fact that the
grunion were running.   The fish's name comes from a (Spanish) verb
meaning 'grumble' or 'grunt'.  Perhaps among these three activities
comes the decision to refer to the Silicon Alley partiers as grunion.
(I prefer the zero plural myself.)

larry


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 30 02:36:54 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:36:54 -0600
Subject: American English Stress.
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.203654.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Do any of the dictionaries on CD allow one to search by total syllables, part of speech and stress marks? The results of such a search on the whole of English would be interesting.

Regarding the question about the stress of "detail", and other such two-syllable words which are noun-verb pairs differing only in stress, my instinct that all such verbs 'correctly' take the stress on the second syllable, and also reduce the first vowel to something close to a schwa. 
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From james at MULLAN.UK.COM  Thu Nov 30 01:11:08 2000
From: james at MULLAN.UK.COM (James C. Mullan)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:11:08 -0500
Subject: Blessed
In-Reply-To: <v04210103b64a0a0d1d2c@[165.247.179.136]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.201108.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 20:28 11/28/00 -0500, Tony Glaser wrote:
>I'm new to this list, and am not a professional in the area of
[snip]
>
>I lived in Montserrat in the Eastern Caribbean for many years, and
>occasionally heard people (English/Montserrat creole speakers) use
>the word "blessed" to mean "injured" - derived from the French
>"bless" (although quite why it should appear in the English-speaking
>Caribbean I'm not sure).
[snip]

Isn't "blessé" the French word for "wounded" or "injured"? It could have
been imported into the creole?
Jimmy


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Nov 30 06:57:57 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 01:57:57 -0500
Subject: Scrabble
In-Reply-To: <E141Cx3-0004XF-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.015757.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > Other than the info given in Popular Delusions and the Madness of
> Crowds, is
> > there anything more known regarding the "Quoz!" catchphrase of Victorian
> > England?
> >
>
>Well, I can tell you it's not a legal Scrabble word in England.  Too bad!!

What determines which words are legal in British Scrabble?

A Scrabble-playing colleague told me that there is an official Scrabble
dictionary used in the US.

He said that in Britain, any word listed in the OED is acceptable: is he
mistaken?

(I suppose he's speaking of tournament play.)

-- Doug Wilson


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Nov 30 11:15:36 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:15:36 +0000
Subject: Scrabble
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.111536.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > >Well, I can tell you it's not a legal Scrabble word in England.  Too
bad!!
>
> What determines which words are legal in British Scrabble?
>
> A Scrabble-playing colleague told me that there is an official Scrabble
> dictionary used in the US.
>
> He said that in Britain, any word listed in the OED is acceptable: is he
> mistaken?
>
> (I suppose he's speaking of tournament play.)


The OED is irrelevant to British Scrabble, although it may have been used long
ago.  The official dictionary for UK Scrabble is Chambers.  They put out
'Official Scrabble Words' (OSW4) so that you have all the
inflections/derivations of headwords that are legal play.

However, this is about to change.  In January, we start switching over to the
'world dictionary' (also known as SOWPODS) which includes all the words from
the OSW4 and OTCWL, the US tournament/club official dictionary, published by
Merriam-Webster.  (This is not the same as the 'official Scrabble dictionary'
that Merriam-Webster sells in shops.  You have to be a member of the National
Scrabble Assn to buy OTCWL, because it has --yikes!-- bad words in it!)

The North American Natl Scrabble Assn voted against the world dictionary last
year.  (But the Americans had much more to lose by joining dictionaries than
the British--the American game is much different, more strategic, than the
British, and the addition of two-letter Z and Q words would have really
changed the spirit of the game.)

Don't you feel enriched by this knowledge?  How did you live without it
before?

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov 30 11:51:41 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 12:51:41 +0100
Subject: Scrabble
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.125141.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

>(But the Americans had much more to lose by joining dictionaries than
>the British--the American game is much different, more strategic, than the
>British, and the addition of two-letter Z and Q words would have really
>changed the spirit of the game.)

This is interesting. How different are the strategies? Are you talking about
opportunity blocking and highs-score whoring or what? And on whose part? Does this mean
you're going to come back to the US and blow all the Yanks away with your new Scrabble
strategy hybrid vigor?


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Thu Nov 30 15:24:00 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:24:00 EST
Subject: flogged like a rented mule
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.102400.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Several years ago I heard John Sterling, the lead voice on
the NY Yankees radio broadcasts, use the expression "to beat like a
rented mule".  I don't remember the statement precisely, though I'm
sure it was "beat", not "flog"; nor the context, except that it
referred to sports, presumably baseball.

GAT


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Thu Nov 30 15:35:52 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:35:52 -0600
Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.093552.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

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From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 30 16:09:44 2000
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:09:44 -0500
Subject: flogged like a rented mule
In-Reply-To: <143BC152233@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.110944.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GEORGE THOMPSON wrote:
>        Several years ago I heard John Sterling, the lead voice on
>the NY Yankees radio broadcasts, use the expression "to beat like a
>rented mule".  I don't remember the statement precisely, though I'm
>sure it was "beat", not "flog"; nor the context, except that it
>referred to sports, presumably baseball.
>

It's an expression I hear regularly on sports highlight shows
(SportsCenter and the like), usually in reference to hockey. The
canonical trope is "X team beat Y (opponent's goalie) like a rented
mule", typically when said goalie lets in a few shots he should have
stopped.

Alice
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 30 16:48:05 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:48:05 EST
Subject: Peach Smoothie (1952)
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.114805.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   BETTER HOMES AND GARDENS had a very large circulation in the 1950s.
   From August 1952, pages 84-85:

Calorie counters can
_Count on an electric blender_
Want your weight to go up or down on the scale?  Then try some of these blender tricks for adding sparkle to meals and snacks
(Orange Pep-up, Banana Milk Shake, Blender Fudge Sauce, and Avocado Dip are also shown--ed.)
(Pg. 84, col. 2--ed.)
_Peach Smoothie._  Frozen peaches flavor a luscious, low-calorie cooler.  It's so thick you drink it through fat straws.  But instead of adding ice cream, you let blender whip crushed ice, nonfat dry milk into a smooth treat.
(Pg. 86, col. 3--ed.)
   _Peach Smoothie_
_So thick you'll think it's made with ice cream--_
1/2 12-ounce package frozen peaches
1/2 cup cold water
2 tablespoons lemon juice
3 tablespoons nonfat dry milk
1 cup crushed ice
   Cut package of frozen peaches in two.  Thaw one half slightly and break it apart.  Place water, lemon juice, and nonfat dry milk in the blender.  Turn it on and gradually add small chunks of frozen peaches and the crushed ice.  Blend until smooth, about 30 seconds.  Makes 2 1/2 cups.  Use remaining frozen peaches for a second batch of these milk shakes.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 30 04:04:12 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 12:04:12 +0800
Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20001130093552.0069b380@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.120412.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Can anyone help Mr. Caraway?  DARE has only one bit of anecdotal
>corroboration.
>
>  >>>>
>>X-Sender: jcaraway1 at pop-server.austin.rr.com
>>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
>>Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:48:48 -0600
>>To: jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu
>>From: Jim Caraway <jcaraway1 at austin.rr.com>
>>Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
>>Cc: lvonschn at facstaff.wisc.edu
>>
>>Hello.
>>
>>Since I retired in 1993 I've been writing on a Journal at the
>>request of my family, in which I've tried to set down all the
>>recollections I can remember growing up in Mills County, Texas
>>during the depression as a boy. One of the things I remember was
>>the use of the word, "yahooty", pronounced "yea" (as in, "Yea shall
>>know the truth, ...") "hooty". It was used in the context of a
>>fictitious or imaginary person, like under the following
>>circumstance: Someone says, "Who took the last piece of pie?" And
>>I'd say "Yahooty took it." when in fact it was I who took it. A
>>sort of scapegoat. Then, recently I was watching a rerun of an
>>episode from the TV series, "The Waltons", and the name, Yahooty,
>>came up again. This time it was used in the context of the name of
>>the little man in the refrigerator who turns off the light when the
>>door is closed.
>>
>>My question is do you have any information on this word, or do you
>>have any idea where I could get a true definition of its use and
>>origin? I've searched the internet without success.
>>
Interesting.  Looks like most of the google references use "yahooty"
as a filler for someone unknown (= Whats{his/her}name), but without
the specific scapegoating sense cited by Mr. Caraway.  A couple of
sites have it as some sort of generalized cheer, a kind of reinforced
"Yay!".  There's even a www.yahooty.com site, but I couldn't get any
info from it.  And then there was this one outlier, from a "Humour in
Slash Fiction" chat group archived at
http://www.squidge.org/~adsoffice/logs/20000716_2.html:

      <ahnon_e_m> I bet Q has a yahooty this long.....
      fuzzicat giggles

larry


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Nov 30 20:20:35 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 12:20:35 -0800
Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.122035.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In line with Larry's findings, going to the TopClick (watch the
spelling) search site, both yahooty and ya hooty can be found, as used
in an exclamatory context.  Unfortunately, some of the links are broken,
if not incorrect.

http://www.topclick.com/

In a generic context, there is a mention of Mrs.Yahooty and Mr.
Schlempf, at:
http://csf.colorado.edu/mail/pkt/feb98/0658.html

And Ms. Yahooty, at:
http://pix.egroups.com/message/ipe/3159

The name of a horse, Blue Yahooty Hancock, nicknamed Hootie, at:
http://www.horses-for-sale.net/bin/showhorse.pl?horseid=184186

Exclamation, at:
http://cyclery.com/lists/mtb/mtb-archive-hyper/mtb.199906/0223.html
http://cyclery.com/lists/chinook/chinook-archive-hyper/chinook.199903/0004.html

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~zhwang/Madonna/MDRoL1.html
http://www.accd.edu/tcmn/nov99.htm  [Yahooty hoot hoot!]

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Nov 30 18:05:59 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:05:59 -0500
Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20001130093552.0069b380@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.130559.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>Yahooty

This is the most enlightening item I can find in a quick Web search:

http://www.shu.ac.uk/web-admin/phrases/bulletin_board/5/messages/348.html

The way it's shown here, it might have been "Yehudi" originally (famous
violinist's first name).

There was a Walt Disney cartoon owl named "Yehooty".

-- Doug Wilson


From pcleary at WANS.NET  Thu Nov 30 18:07:37 2000
From: pcleary at WANS.NET (Philip E. Cleary)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:07:37 -0500
Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.130737.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<It was used in the context of a fictitious or imaginary person, like under the following circumstance: Someone says, "Who took the last piece of pie?" And I'd say "Yahooty took it." when in fact it was I who took it. A sort of scapegoat. >

In our Bostonian family there is a mythical person who bears the responsibility for missing or broken objects, etc. He was introduced into the family by my wife, a native of Seattle, who learned of him from her mother, a Seattle native who spent a fair amount of time in NJ. My wife defines him as "the little man who isn't there" and (being a musician) always thought his name was "Yehudi."

Phil Cleary
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From funex79 at SLONET.ORG  Thu Nov 30 18:34:55 2000
From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:34:55 -0800
Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.103455.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Where's Yehudi?" was a tagline on the Bob Hope radio show in the forties. May have had somehing to do with:

Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today.
Oh how I wish he'd go away.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Joan Houston Hall 
  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
  Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 7:35 AM
  Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition


  Can anyone help Mr. Caraway? DARE has only one bit of anecdotal corroboration.

  >>>>

    X-Sender: jcaraway1 at pop-server.austin.rr.com
    X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
    Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:48:48 -0600
    To: jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu
    From: Jim Caraway <jcaraway1 at austin.rr.com>
    Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
    Cc: lvonschn at facstaff.wisc.edu

    Hello.

    Since I retired in 1993 I've been writing on a Journal at the request of my family, in which I've tried to set down all the recollections I can remember growing up in Mills County, Texas during the depression as a boy. One of the things I remember was the use of the word, "yahooty", pronounced "yea" (as in, "Yea shall know the truth, ...") "hooty". It was used in the context of a fictitious or imaginary person, like under the following circumstance: Someone says, "Who took the last piece of pie?" And I'd say "Yahooty took it." when in fact it was I who took it. A sort of scapegoat. Then, recently I was watching a rerun of an episode from the TV series, "The Waltons", and the name, Yahooty, came up again. This time it was used in the context of the name of the little man in the refrigerator who turns off the light when the door is closed.

    My question is do you have any information on this word, or do you have any idea where I could get a true definition of its use and origin? I've searched the internet without success.

    I'm not talking about the word, yahoo, which when I was growing up meant an uncouth person, lout, brute, or person lacking sensibility, and which originated with Jonathan Swift in Gulliver's Travels.

    Nor am I talking about the word, yahudi, (in Arabic-speaking or Muslim countries) or yehudi (in the U.S. and Israel), which simply means a Jew, in English or in Hebrew. Since Jews frequently are scapegoats, there could be a relationship between words here, but I doubt that was the case when I was growing up.

    I noticed that the latter volumns of D.A.R.E. (containing words beginning with the letter "Y") have not been published. Am I correct?

    I'm not really sure of the spelling of yahooty; it could be yeehooty, or yeahooty. Would appreciate your comments. Thanks.



    -
    jcaraway1 at austin.rr.com, Austin, Texas.
    Please visit my home web site at:
    http://home.austin.rr.com/jcaraway1/
    Also, Please visit my genealogy web site at:
    http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/c/a/r/James-C-Caraway/




  <<<< 
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From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Nov 30 18:34:19 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:34:19 -0500
Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001130125454.00aaba30@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.133419.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another Web reference to Bob Hope's "Yehudi":

http://www.spumco.com/magazine/eowbcc/eowbcc-xyz.html

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Nov 30 19:27:04 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:27:04 -0500
Subject: Chad enuffa dis? (continued)
In-Reply-To: <50.dcbdcf4.2751c9e3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.142704.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I did a little reading. It turns out I was woefully ignorant of the history
of punched tape and cards.

Since the earliest and most frequent usages of "chad" seem to refer to
telegraphy tape, I reviewed the history of punched tape in telegraphy.
Apparently something called Wheatstone tape, patented in 1846 (UK), looking
very similar to punched tape used ca. 1960, became widespread around
1870-1890. So plenty of chad(s) would have been present in large telegraph
offices by ca. 1900.

The earliest similar technology commonly cited is the Jacquard loom, which
used punched cards for control early in the 19th century. I doubt there
would have been much volume of chad(s) associated with this or with other
early devices such as Babbage engines. But the US census used punched cards
around 1900 (I forget the exact date), no doubt leading to a localized
surfeit of chad.

Postage stamps have been perforated by hole punch since about 1854, and the
major early technical problem involved failure of the punch due to impacted
paper (i.e., chad[s]). I find mention of "paper" and "paper discs" only, in
a short browse at the library. One (recent) book (which I couldn't find)
was quoted as mentioning the huge volume of chad (using this word) produced
in manufacture of US stamps. Surely there would have been a large volume by
ca. 1900.

I doubt our "chad" has been in (significant) use since ca. 1900 (in this
case probably it would have made it into large dictionaries earlier). But
the 1920's or 1930's might be plausible?

-- Doug Wilson


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Nov 30 21:16:12 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:16:12 -0500
Subject: 32.20
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.161612.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ray Ott <Amcolph at AOL.COM> writes:

>>>>>
The 32 is the caliber (.32" dia.) and the 20 is the number of grains of
black powder in the
cartridge.
<<<<<

Presumably not a count of 20 individual grains (as in "grains of sand"),
but a weight of 20 grains, or 1.3 grams.

   Mark A. Mandel : Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Senior Linguist
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 30 23:18:50 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:18:50 EST
Subject: Micromotors; Nanonurses; Teenagers
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.181850.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MICROMOTORS & NANONURSES

   From today's FINANCIAL TIMES, 30 November 2000, "technology Woth Watching," pg. 11, col. 1:

_Historic route to_
_new micromotors_
(Nanomotors, camphor dance are explained--ed.)

   From Col. 3:

_Here come the_
_nanonurses_
   (...)  The Cornell team envisages one of the uses of the nanodevices, which are about the size of virus particles, as "nanonurses" that could move about the body repairing cells or dispensing drugs.

(As long as we're not talking about British nanonurses--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
TEENAGER

   AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS has "teenager" as WOTY for 1939, but I don't have that handy to check the cite.
   From BETTER HOMES AND GARDENS, February 1939, pg. 34, col. 1:

_"So Long Folks--I've a Date"_
Shall parents have a say in the so-
cial life of their teen-agers?  Here
young moderns battle it out


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Nov 30 23:25:08 2000
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:25:08 -0500
Subject: Chad enuffa dis? (continued)
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.182508.0500.ABATEFR@EARTHLINK.NET>

To add to what Douglas Wilson said, I know that in the days of paper tape in
earlier (1960s) computer use, the devices that would punch out the tape (it
was yellow paper for some reason), usually right next to the computer
console, had a catch bin below the area where the holes got punched.  The
bin would fill up with many thousands of little paper disks.  I cannot
myself recall anyone calling that stuff "chad", as mass noun or count noun,
but I do know that a lot of that stuff was around, in every place doing
computing, and in places doing what used to be called automated typesetting.

For those who have not seen it, the old computer paper tape was about an
inch and a half wide, was low quality (like newsprint), was yellow, and was
punched out line-by-line.  The pattern of dots and non-dots in each line
represented a character -- a non-electronic computer byte.  In those days,
with no hard drives at all, the only means of electronic storage was a huge
and expensive tape drive (as in old movies about computers).  The paper tape
was cheap and purely mechanical, like punch cards, but had the advantage of
allowing a long continuous stream of data recording.

Punch cards used to be very common in the same period, and led to similar
janitorial needs -- to collect, clean out, and dispose of a huge amount of
these little bits of paper.

We should check with some long-time computer users, or retired IBM mainframe
computer types, re usage of "chad".

Sorry to go on, but I think the paper-tape technology is so outmoded that it
may be unfamiliar to many.  As we all know so well, punch cards are still
very much with us.

Frank Abate


From prez234 at JUNO.COM  Wed Nov 15 13:53:51 2000
From: prez234 at JUNO.COM (Joseph McCollum)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 07:53:51 CST
Subject: Chick)
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.075351.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:52:26 -0800 Bob Fitzke <fitzke at VOYAGER.NET>
writes:
>I suspect it's to differentiate causes. My son was bald at 44 but it was
because he >underwent chemotherapy for non-Hodgkins lymphoma. I doubt the
advertisers >purport to alleviate that kind of loss.
>
>Bob
>
So far as I know, that is right.  The term is actually "male pattern
baldness," referring to the genetic pattern that causes baldness (which
happens to be dominant in males and recessive in females), not to the
pattern observed on the scalp.  One would think that the hair tonic does
not  alter genetic codes and treats only certain types of  "nonpattern
baldness" instead.

One would think that a claim of male or female pattern obesity would
require identification of a genetic code.

Other subject:  From where does "on the bubble" originate?  I know the
term from the NCAA basketball tournament, but I used it saying that I was
"on the bubble" for a promotion.  A friend asked me what it meant, and I
myself wasn't sure.  The only thing I could think of would be some
insect, perhaps, on the bubble that is about to burst.
The other thing would be a bubble of water that acts as a magnifying
glass -- those "on the bubble" receive extra scrutiny.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov  1 03:23:16 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:23:16 -0500
Subject: Heavens to...
In-Reply-To: <645325.3181979284@dhcp-218-200-211.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.OCT.2000.222316.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> One of our secretaries just asked me if I knew where the expression
> "Heavens to Murgatroyd" came from.  I hadn't a clue.  I guess I'd heard it
> before, but certainly not often.  DARE has only the more familiar "Heavens
> to Betsy," with "etym. unknown."
>
> Have others heard the Murgatroyd version?  Anybody have a clue where the
> construction comes from, even if DARE doesn't?  It sounds as if it ought to
> be a euphemism, but I can't think for what, and the "Heavens to..."
> construction is grammatically opaque to me.

Brewer's Quotations has this to say:  "A cartoon lion called Snagglepuss,
which came out of the Hannah-Barbera studios in the 1960s, was given to
exclaiming 'Heavens to Murgatroyd!'  He made his first appearance in The
Yogi Bear Show, but his catchphrase was apparently not original, however.
An American correspondent noted (1993): 'It was a favorite expression of a
favorite uncle of mine in teh 1940s, and my wife also remembers it from
her growing-up years in the '40s."

Personally, I think Snagglepuss's greatest line was "Exit stage left."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  1 03:59:09 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 22:59:09 EST
Subject: Robert Gover novels
Message-ID: <TUE.31.OCT.2000.225909.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WRITER'S DIGEST (continued)

   The RHHDAS doesn't cite any of these WRITER'S DIGEST slang lists!  Also
add "Australian Slang," WRITER'S DIGEST, November 1942, pg. 62.
   I could retype all the lists on ADS-L if people wish.

--------------------------------------------------------
ROBERT GOVER NOVELS

   I didn't find "the whole nine yards" in his novels, but I found lots of
good stuff from the 1960s.  I'll try to look for that phrase when I check the
LOS ANGELES FREE WEEKLY in the NYPL later this week.

THE ONE HUNDRED DOLLAR MISUNDERSTANDING (1964)
by Robert Gover
Grove Press, NY

Pg. 9--triple whammy
Pg. 9--I was in _no mood_!
Pg. 10--...get their _ashes hauled_!  That's a way of saying they're going to
pay and then make love (or, I should say, fornicate) with some Negro.
Pg. 19--College Joe.
Pg. 20--She-it!
Pg. 21--...mothahfug...mothahfuggin...
Pg. 22--Well kiss my blackass!  (Pg. 94--I say, Jimmy you kiss my
blackass....)
Pg. 23--muddlehead
Pg. 38--I say Honeydripper, make room fer this Honeydripper!
Pg. 45--I reached my first (if you'll pardon the expression) climax too
hastily.
Pg. 47--You, after all, are the one who should carry the old football, so to
speak.
Pg. 61--I thought: JC my friend, pinch yourself.  You may be dreaming!
Pg. 62--Big Money Honey sleepin in my bed.
Pg. 73--I say, Baby you wanna turn me on?  He say, yeah yeah yeah...
Pg. 76--Nex, homerun!
Pg. 76--Wornout pecker ain no good for payin up!
Pg. 84--O-U-T out!
Pg. 88--I know them WHitefolks all so fuggin nutty they is like one big
fruitcake!
Pg. 89--He go like somebody stick a firecracker up his asshole.
Pg. 108--Crabass!
Pg. 113--I mean the whole thing seemed like a wild post-icecream dream...
Pg. 123--She got her a big mouff an she gotta talk.
Pg. 149--...about 60 (mph--ed.)--a graceful 60--then floored it, and--wham!
Pg. 167--This word, you say Copu You Late, an it mean fug.
Pg. 180--I mean she stood up, right in the face of my Roscoe! (Gun--ed.)

HERE GOES KITTEN (1964)
by Robert Gover
Grove Press, NY

Pg. 39--Shiverin shitfits!
Pg. 74--It's Eyetalian!

POORBOY AT THE PARTY (1966)
by Robert Gover
Trident Press, NY

Pg. 58--"I don't know a thing about stockbreaking."
Pg. 67--Holy Hannah, I said to myself.  (On further checking, the RHHDAS has
"holy Hannah" only from 1982--ed.)
Pg. 94--Yes-sir-ree-bob!
Pg. 134--...you pea-brain.
Pg. 147--...and another returnee from the gangbang.
Pg. 193--...richbitch head.
Pg. 222--...this crazy richbitch...
Pg. 224--..You richbitch...  (RHHDAS?--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov  1 04:15:22 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 23:15:22 -0500
Subject: Heavens to...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10010312219390.8363-100000@minerva.cis.yale. edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.OCT.2000.231522.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Heavens to Betsy" is apparently entirely mysterious in its origin. It is
discussed at the M-W Web site and at Quinion's site. There is a book by
this title by Charles Earle Funk (1955, now available in paperback), in
which Dr. Funk reports his failure to establish an 'etymology'.

"Heavens to Murgatroyd" seems to me to be a joke on the 'opacity' of the
exclamation with "Betsy" -- i.e., instead of a plain bland (woman's) first
name one might as well use a very uncommon and odd-sounding (man's [I
think]) first name -- neither makes any sense anyway.

I remember the cartoon lion saying this, I think, and he debuted in 1961 or
so. I have a feeling that it was copied, however, from some earlier comedy
... I have a vague and possibly spurious recollection of hearing this in
some old slapstick movie -- maybe the Marx Brothers or the Three Stooges.

-- Doug Wilson


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  1 06:58:10 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 00:58:10 CST
Subject: Heavens to...
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.005810.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Personally, I think Snagglepuss's greatest line was "Exit stage
left."

Or, as I remember when I watched the Hanna-Barbara cartoon show back when it
was first-run, 'exit straight up'.

A huge amount of theological American English (a la Homer) has happened
since the release of the movie, _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_.

Bugs Bunny is approximately analogous to Hermes.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  1 07:02:03 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 01:02:03 CST
Subject: Robert Gover novels
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.010203.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Pg. 9--triple whammy

This is Al Capp. Li'l Abner and all that.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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http://profiles.msn.com.


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Nov  1 07:13:32 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 01:13:32 CST
Subject: Robert Gover novels
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.011332.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE ONE HUNDRED DOLLAR MISUNDERSTANDING (1964)
by Robert Gover
Grove Press, NY

This might be the book I remember as the $50. Misunderstanding. I remember
my cousin Connie raving about it as 'funny'. But this was a paperback I
never read.

I was too young back then, or rather, too naive. In 64 I was a very
religously conservative 15 year old, wondering what the UC-Berkeley Freedom
Under Clark Kerr movement a mile or three north from Piedmont meant.

Oh Gawd yes. I remember TV pictures of Bettina Apthecker in her raincoat.
And I remember I knew Bill Fiset before I knew who Herb Caen was.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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http://profiles.msn.com.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed Nov  1 08:26:26 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 01:26:26 -0700
Subject: Unmarked/uninflected infinitives
In-Reply-To: <39F9F7780004C33A@deimos.email.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.012626.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The distinction of marked vs unmarked infinitives comes from the
historical basis that, as in modern German, the verb form following a
modal is inflected with the infinitive suffix (-en in German, -an in Old
English). The preposition "to" occurring before what was a dative-marked
infinitive came to be perceived as the inflectional equivalent of the
infinitive itself as the original suffix (actually double-suffix) was
dropped (perhaps much as "pas" in French has come to be perceived as the
negative element, with the original "ne" fading). So although it is
historically odd to call "to" the "inflection" for the infinitive, it is
functionally that, while the historically equally inflected infinitive
after modals, now the "zero" form in Chomskyan TG terms, is now the
uninflected infinitive form. All zeros are not equal.
        --Rudy


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov  1 12:40:34 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 07:40:34 -0500
Subject: Heavens to...
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001031224436.030b40f0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.074034.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> "Heavens to Betsy" is apparently entirely mysterious in its origin. It is
> discussed at the M-W Web site and at Quinion's site. There is a book by
> this title by Charles Earle Funk (1955, now available in paperback), in
> which Dr. Funk reports his failure to establish an 'etymology'.

The OED's first use for "heavens to Betsy/Betsey" is dated 1892.  Making
of America yields the following earlier example:

1878 _Harper's New Monthly Mag._ Sept. 582  "Heavens-to-Betsy!  You don't
think I ever see a copper o' her cash, do ye?


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU  Wed Nov  1 14:22:04 2000
From: HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:22:04 -0500
Subject: Pet peeve
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.092204.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry,

The to-infinitive developed from a semantic contrast in Old
English between two different sets of verbs, a contrast that still
persists in ModE in the difference between "will" as a modal and
"will" as a desiderative verb, a doublet in which the former
descends directly from OE "willan" and the latter from ME
"willen", which itself is from OE "willan", -an marking the
infinitive in OE.  The verbs that were to become ModE modals did
not use "to:".  Verbs of causation, intention, motion, perception,
etc. were variable, sometimes taking "to:" and sometimes not.
Verbs of purpose regularly took infinitives with "to:", and "to:"
also was used if the infinitive was a complement to a noun or
adjective or functioned as a nominal itself.  In late OE, "to:"
generalized to more infinitives.  The suffix continued well into
ME, although the /n/ was increasingly dropped.  It's still present
in Chaucer, as in the line "Thanne longen folk to goon on
pilgrimages."  While to-infinitives are more widely distributed in
ModE, there is still a complementarity between modals, perception
verbs, and a few semi-modals taking the infinitive without "to"
and most other uses requiring the "to".  I don't see any reason
why the analysis would have changed significantly from OE times.
Details of verb classes have shifted, but surprisingly little.  As
for the use of the term "base form", that's a consequence of the
decision, or lack of decision, to define the infinitive as marked
only by "to".  It's morphologically useful in that it draws
together a variety of uses of the uninflected verb, but it's not
of much use in a grammatical description.  I agree, BTW, that
"marked/unmarked infinitive" is not standard usage, but then
"split infinitive" is, so that measure doesn't buy us much.
Obviously, I'm pretty much restating Jespersen's case in MEG, Vol.
5.

Herb

>>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 10/31/00 02:56AM >>>
At 3:39 PM -0500 10/31/00, Herb Stahlke wrote:
>I haven't run into, or at least noticed, this aberration.
>However, as others will undoubtedly note, split infinitives are
>perfectly acceptable, another 18th c. prescriptivism surviving
too
>long.  In "would change", by the way, "change" is an
infinitive.
>Modals take unmarked infinitives.  The "to" is not what makes a
>form an infinitive.  It's just one way of marking that status.
>
>Herb Stahlke
>
Well, that's really a question of definition.  On some
definitions,
I'm pretty sure the majority of them in both theoretical and
descriptive analyses, only the "to ____" forms are in fact
infinitives, the others--while non-finite--aren't.  (-ing forms,
as
in present participles, are also non-finite but obviously not
infinitives, and likewise for imperatives and subjunctives.)  As
for
the form that follows the modal, I've heard/seen that referred to
as
the base form.  I don't believe "marked/unmarked infinitive" is
standard usage, although I would have no trouble if a particular
treatise explicitly defined them that way.

larry


From HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU  Wed Nov  1 14:51:12 2000
From: HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:51:12 -0500
Subject: Pet peeve
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.095112.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't teach my first year students that modals don't govern the
infinitive, rather that they don't govern the marked infinitive.
My decision may be influenced by the fact that most of our
students are interested in TESOL, where one of the more common
Interlanguage errors is using marked infinitives after modals.
Interestingly, this error does not spread to the subjunctives.
External evidence, of course, but useful when training ESOL
teachers.

Herb

>>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 10/31/00 03:39AM >>>
At 4:19 PM -0500 10/31/00, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
>The Merriam-Webster English usage dictionary says (in an
extended discussion):
>
>"... _to_ is only an appurtenance of the infinitive, which is
the
>uninflected form of the verb. In many constructions the
infinitive is used
>alone ...
>
So according to this practice, the subjunctives in "I demand that
he
leave" or "If it be treason" are really infinitives?  And when
first-year syntax students learn than modals don't govern the
infinitive (*He could to leave") they're being misinformed?
It's
certainly not standard practice in linguistics courses and texts
to
take the uninflected but to-less form of a verb following a modal
or
in the "that" complement of a verb like "demand" or "require" to
constitute an infinitive.  (Another case is "She made me (*to)
do
it".)  Base form/bare verb form (maybe even "infinitive stem")
si,
infinitive no.  Of course, this may just be a dialect split...

larry


From janivars at BAHNHOF.SE  Wed Nov  1 15:18:23 2000
From: janivars at BAHNHOF.SE (Jan Ivarsson)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 16:18:23 +0100
Subject: Heavens to...
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.161823.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Could Betsy possibly be Betsy Ross in Minna Irving's "Betsy's Battle Flag"?

"The simple stone of Betsy Ross
Is covered now with mold and moss,
But still her deathless banner flies,
And keeps the color of the skies.
A nation thrills, a nation bleeds,
A nation follows where it leads,
And every man is proud to yield
His life upon a crimson field
     For Betsy's battle flag!"

I found the poem in Burton Stevenson's Book of quotations, but unfortunately without date or title of Irving's book, if any. (Irving, Minna, Mrs. Harry Michiner, 1857 - 1940, American verse-writer)

Jan Ivarsson, Sweden

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: den 1 november 2000 13:40
Subject: Re: Heavens to...


> On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
> > "Heavens to Betsy" is apparently entirely mysterious in its origin. It is
> > discussed at the M-W Web site and at Quinion's site. There is a book by
> > this title by Charles Earle Funk (1955, now available in paperback), in
> > which Dr. Funk reports his failure to establish an 'etymology'.
>
> The OED's first use for "heavens to Betsy/Betsey" is dated 1892.  Making
> of America yields the following earlier example:
>
> 1878 _Harper's New Monthly Mag._ Sept. 582  "Heavens-to-Betsy!  You don't
> think I ever see a copper o' her cash, do ye?
>
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Nov  1 17:01:26 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:01:26 -0500
Subject: OED Newsletter, Oct. 2000, now available
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.120126.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FYI:



I am writing to let you know that the latest issue of OED News is now
available at   http://www.oed.com/public/news/0009.htm in both text and pdf
format. The issue includes articles looking at the process of revising an
OED entry - from a technical, and from a more personal point of view.

OED News is now published quarterly, and we will let you know by e-mail as
soon as each issue is published, to keep you informed about the latest news
and developments on the OED.  OED News contains articles by editors,
researchers, and contributors on their work for the OED, regular updates on
the overall progress of the revision programme, and reports on other items
that the editors come across in the course of their research. Each issue
also contains an Appeals List, consisting of words and phrases for which
entries are currently being drafted or revised, and for which further
evidence is needed.

I hope that you enjoy reading OED News, and that you will be able to help
the OED revision project by submitting material in response to our Appeals
List.
John Simpson
Chief Editor, Oxford English Dictionary


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  1 17:11:34 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:11:34 EST
Subject: Affirmative Access
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.121134.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ONE HUNDRED DOLLAR MISUNDERSTANDING (1961)

   Sorry, I should have said 1961.  (The sequel was written in 1964.)  The
novel is written half in the voice of a white man, half in the voice of a
black prostitute.  "Fug" is used a lot.  Why didn't Lighter treat this word?

--------------------------------------------------------
AFFIRMATIVE ACCESS

   From the VILLAGE VOICE, 7 November 2000, pg. 47, col. 2:

   ...Bush, who has already coined the phrase "affirmative access" to replace
programs that benefit minorities.

--------------------------------------------------------
CHARTICLE, ADULTESCENT

   From NEW YORK PRESS, November 1-7, 2000, pg. 1, col. 2:

   ...the editorial mostly comes in bite-size bits and "charticles," mostly
on lifestyle trivai concerning, as _Maxim_'s cover declares, sex, sports,
beer, gadgets, clothes and fitness.  (...)  The implication is that _Maxim_
taps the 15-year-old in all men--a readership _Advertising Age_ gave the ugly
sobriquet "adultescents."


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Nov  1 17:18:33 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 12:18:33 -0500
Subject: Affirmative Access
In-Reply-To: <a4.b6253a2.2731a8c6@aol.com>; from Bapopik@AOL.COM on Wed,
 Nov 01, 2000 at 12:11:34PM -0500
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.121833.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>    Sorry, I should have said 1961.  (The sequel was written in 1964.)  The
> novel is written half in the voice of a white man, half in the voice of a
> black prostitute.  "Fug" is used a lot.  Why didn't Lighter treat this word?

First, you do know that Lighter read Gover heavily and cites from
_One Hundred Dollar Misunderstanding_ constantly.

"Fug" is mentioned in the note for _fuck_ v.: "the recent forms
_fug, fugg_ are printed euphem. and do not represent pronun."
There's an example of "mothafuggah" from one of Gover's later works
cited at _motherfucker._ The forms that we broke out for separate
treatment are, for the most part, not just printed euphemisms but
different formations.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov  1 18:26:54 2000
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:26:54 -0500
Subject: fug
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.132654.0500.>

The form was popularized by Norman Mailer in his war novel, The Naked
and the Dead (1948).  The famous anecdote is Tallulah Bankhead
supposedly greeted him "So you're the young man who can't spell fuck!"

-- db
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov  1 05:34:38 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 13:34:38 +0800
Subject: Affirmative Access
In-Reply-To: <20001101121833.A25848@panix.com>
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.133438.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:18 PM -0500 11/1/00, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>  >    Sorry, I should have said 1961.  (The sequel was written in 1964.)  The
>>  novel is written half in the voice of a white man, half in the voice of a
>>  black prostitute.  "Fug" is used a lot.  Why didn't Lighter treat this word?
>
>First, you do know that Lighter read Gover heavily and cites from
>_One Hundred Dollar Misunderstanding_ constantly.
>
>"Fug" is mentioned in the note for _fuck_ v.: "the recent forms
>_fug, fugg_ are printed euphem. and do not represent pronun."
>
Well, yes, but I've never heard "The (Village) Fugs" (the celebrated
musical group; I believe they recorded under both names) referred to
as anything other than "The [f at gz]".  Of course, that is a proper
name.

larry


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Wed Nov  1 20:38:06 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:38:06 -0500
Subject: Heavens to...
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.153806.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> writes:

>>>>>
Brewer's Quotations has this to say:  "A cartoon lion called Snagglepuss,
which came out of the Hannah-Barbera studios in the 1960s, was given to
exclaiming 'Heavens to Murgatroyd!'  He made his first appearance in The
Yogi Bear Show, but his catchphrase was apparently not original, however.
An American correspondent noted (1993): 'It was a favorite expression of a
favorite uncle of mine in teh 1940s, and my wife also remembers it from
her growing-up years in the '40s."

Personally, I think Snagglepuss's greatest line was "Exit stage left."
<<<<<

Ah, but no text can convey the intonation and the timing, except to one
who's heard them.

     Exit.... sta-a-ge LEFT!

(Didn't he then go off to the viewer's left, which is stage right?)

-- Mark
Exiting through the only door in sight


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Wed Nov  1 21:01:56 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:01:56 +0100
Subject: www.americandialect.org
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.220156.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

The ADS web site is experiencing a temporary glitch. Some visitors will get an error
when trying to load it. Everything should be fine by 6 a.m. Pacific time tomorrow,
but in the meantime, if you can't load the site (and you should check first), use one
of the following:

http://128.192.25.102/ads/

http://us.english.uga.edu/ads/

Sorry for the problem.

--
Grant Barrett
ADS Web Geek
gbarrett at monickels.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  1 22:31:19 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 17:31:19 EST
Subject: Microburst
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.173119.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   More "Danish pastry" stuff later...The FT IT section of today's newspaper
defines some artificial intelligence terms.
   The online OED is missing a lot of "micro-," such as "microbrew."
"Microburst" was in today's NEWSDAY (story about Singapore AIrlines crash), 1
November 2000, pg. 2, col. 2:

   Or the plane might have been brought down by wind shear, a downdraft
associated with severe weather that can literally push a plane onto the
ground during a takeoff or landing.  The phenomenon, which causes a
"microburst" of cold air to descend on the runway, gives the flight crew
little time to recover.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Nov  1 23:34:11 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:34:11 -0500
Subject: Microburst
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.183411.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From _The Barnhart New-Words Concordance_:

microbrew         ANWI and DC Vol. 7.3
microbrewer      ANWI and DC Vol. 7.3
microbrewered                   DC Vol. 7.3
microbrewery    ANWI and DC Vol. 7.3
microbrewing     AMWI and DC Vol. 7.3

microburst                           DC Vol. 3.1 and BDNE3 and Macq.


ANWI = Fifty Years Among the New Words
DC = The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
BDNE3 = The Third Barnhart Dictionary of New English
Macq. = The Macquarie Dictionary of New Words

Regards,
David Barnhart


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  2 01:28:39 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:28:39 EST
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.202839.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   This continues the discussion in the archives of the "O. K." sign.  I
found more stuff about the Ballantine's beer "handy" sign.

10 August 1939, BUCKEYE TAVERN, pg. 7, col. 1:
   You may have noted that readers are forever being advised to "Order
Ballantine's Ale & Beer The 'Handy' Way."  The handy way refers to what we
used to call the "winged O" back in high school days.  It is (Pg. 8, col.
3--ed.) made by arching the thumb and index finger of the right hand into a
closed circle, and holding the remaining three fingers aloft as when lifting
an imported enameled tea cup of the Ming Dynasty.  If, in addition to this
signal, you can wiggle your ears, the stunt looks even better.
   Now then, readers are advised to saunter up to their favorite grog stand,
look the barkeep right in the eye, and then flash this "handy" signal at him.
 Make believe it's sign language, in other words.  This is to be done, of
course, with other standees giving you the stony stare and sizing you up as a
dimwit.

14 September 1939, BUCKEYE TAVERN, pg. 4, col. 4:
   Also, if you ever pull that Three Fingered sign of Ballantine's beer in
front of a nice Latin gal, you'll get a slap in the face.


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Thu Nov  2 01:32:11 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:32:11 -0500
Subject: moodwatcher & other crutches.  Was:someone/somebody, etc.
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.203211.0500.>

Thanks, Lynne, for both explanations.

I guess I was too impatient with the style checker (I forget the
trademark) that came with my WordPerfect circa 1985. As for Roget et
al., I'm sure different people have different uses for them or they
wouldn't have become perennial best-sellers.

Generally speaking, I think academics have more time and patience with
these literary tools than working lexicographers like me.

Thanks again.

TOM.

Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
> I don't set out to use the moodwatcher, as in putting the message
> through the grammar checker on a word processor; I just leave
> moodwatcher on, so that as I type things, chili peppers show up if
> the "offensiveness" triggers are triggered.  I do this because I find
> it terribly amusing to see how stupid the machine is.  Recently, I
> was writing to a friend about the Ben Lee song "Cigarettes will Kill
> You" and discovered that the words "kill you" together, even with
> quote marks around them and an inanimate subject, merits the highest
> number of chili peppers (three).  It's quite fun.
>
> For more info on Eudora's moodwatcher and how silly it is, see:
> http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/10/24/moodwatch/index.html
>
> But, as for word processing grammar checkers, I do use them
> sometimes, but I  customize them to look only for the things I care
> about--i.e., the things I know I need to be careful about in my own
> writing, like long series of phrases of the prepositional nature in
> sentences that I write in  papers that I write for publishers of
> academic publications.  And then there's my overuse of dummy
> subjects.  It is therefore necessary for me to look for "there" and
> "it is" in the editing stage, which is easy to do with a grammar
> checker (or even a find-and-replace mechanism).  Once I work out
> those kinds of problems on the computer, I print the document out and
> give it a real editing.
>
> Allison Smith's 1993 Illinois dissertation, _Revising process and
> written product: a study of basic and skilled L1 English and ESL
> Writers using computers_, shows that grammar checkers are useful to
> skilled writers, and harmful to basic writers.  I was one of her
> skilled L1 subjects--I hadn't used a grammar checker before, but
> learning to use it for the study taught me how to use it to my
> advantage.
>
> There's lots of poor thesaurus use out there--especially by unskilled
> writers trying to sound "academic".  I use mine constantly, but this
> is in part because I write about synonymy, and always need new
> examples.  I also use it for semantics exercises for my students
> (give them a few pages of Roget's and have them determine the
> semantic principles underlying its use of entries, paragraph breaks,
> semicolons, and commas).  The thing I find the thesaurus most useful
> for in writing is solving tip-of-the-tongue (or fingers) problems.
> As in "I know there's a better word for this, and I think it starts
> with a D--what is it?"  The problem for basic writers is that they
> use the thesaurus to teach them words ("I don't want to use this word
> again, better find another for the same thing") and don't understand
> the differences among the words.
>
> With three chili peppers,
> Lynne
> --
> M. Lynne Murphy
> Lecturer in Linguistics
> School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
> University of Sussex
> Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
> phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
> fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Nov  2 01:29:06 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 19:29:06 -0600
Subject: Heavens to Betsy
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.192906.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Here is some speculation on "Heavens to Betsy":

(1) It's necessary to bear "Goodness gracious me" in mind when trying to
figure out the origin of "Heavens to Betsy."  "Goodness gracious me" is
probably elliptical for "May Goodness be gracious to me," where "Goodness"
is used in place of "God."

(2)   Similarly, "Heavens to Betsy" may be seen as elliptical for "May the
heavens be gracious to Betsy."

(3) I was therefore wondering who the original "Betsy" could have been who
is referred to in "Heaven to Betsy."  Along came Jan Ivarsson's Nov. 1,
2000 helpful message mentioning Betsy Ross.  Is there supportive evidence
anywhere for his suggestion? Are there any other possible candidates?

------Gerald Cohen

>Could Betsy possibly be Betsy Ross in Minna Irving's "Betsy's Battle Flag"?
>
>"The simple stone of Betsy Ross
>Is covered now with mold and moss,
>But still her deathless banner flies,
>And keeps the color of the skies.
>A nation thrills, a nation bleeds,
>A nation follows where it leads,
>And every man is proud to yield
>His life upon a crimson field
>     For Betsy's battle flag!"
>
>I found the poem in Burton Stevenson's Book of quotations, but
>unfortunately without date or title of Irving's book, if any. (Irving,
>Minna, Mrs. Harry Michiner, 1857 - 1940, American verse-writer)
>
>Jan Ivarsson, Sweden
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: den 1 november 2000 13:40
>Subject: Re: Heavens to...
>
>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>
>> > "Heavens to Betsy" is apparently entirely mysterious in its origin. It is
>> > discussed at the M-W Web site and at Quinion's site. There is a book by
>> > this title by Charles Earle Funk (1955, now available in paperback), in
>> > which Dr. Funk reports his failure to establish an 'etymology'.
>>
>> The OED's first use for "heavens to Betsy/Betsey" is dated 1892.  Making
>> of America yields the following earlier example:
>>
>> 1878 _Harper's New Monthly Mag._ Sept. 582  "Heavens-to-Betsy!  You don't
>> think I ever see a copper o' her cash, do ye?
>>
>>
>> Fred Shapiro
>>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>> Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
>> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
>> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------



gcohen at umr.edu


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Nov  2 02:07:22 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:07:22 -0600
Subject: Query: Chaucer's use of French words
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.200722.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone have the bibliographic reference(s) for the most detailed study
or studies about Chaucer's use of French words in his writings?  Any
information would be much appreciated.

-----Gerald Cohen





gcohen at umr.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  2 01:55:08 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:55:08 EST
Subject: Danish Pastry (still cooking)
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.205508.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   More on the Danish Pastry.

24 April 1920, BAKERS WEEKLY, pg. 17 full page ad.  A red & white ad for
"DANISH PASTRY BAKING SCHOOL."  A photo shows "INSTRUCTOR L. C. KLITTENG,
ORIGINATOR OF DANISH PASTRY IN U.S.A."  Instruction begins June 1st, and the
14-day course covers 100 hours.  It's at the Danish Culinary Studio, 146 5th
Ave, New York.

1 May 1920, BAKERS' HELPER, pg. 885, col. 1, recipe for "Danish Pastry
Dough," by Paul Richards.

15 May 1920, BAKERS' HELPER, pg. 978, col. 2 headline:
   SWEDISH, DANISH OR FRENCH PASTRIES.  (Recipes follow--ed.)

1 June 1920, BAKERS' HELPER, pg. 1029 full page ad:
THE MAN WHO MADE DANISH PASTRY FAMOUS
Klitteng's DANISH PASTRY SCHOOL New York
Opens July 1st
(Full photo of him in chef's garb--ed.)

1 June 1920, BAKERS' HELPER, pg. 1090, col. 1:
   _DANISH PASTRY SCHOOL STARTS JULY 1ST._
   The Danish Culinary Studio, 146 Fifth avenue, New York City, is scheduled
to open July 1st, and applicants are being enrolled for the first course.
The school has been founded by L. C. Klitteng, who came to this country from
Denmark in December, 1915, and has been responsible for most of the
popularity which Danish pastry has acquired here.  Shortly after his arrival
he made his choice dainties for the President's wedding.  (That would be
Woodrow Wilson.  That's what I asked the White House Historical Association
about and got no reply--ed.)  His next association was with Gertner's in New
York City, where he instructed the bakers fully in this line.  In his
extensive travels since, covering (col. 2--ed.)  thirty states, he has baked
in most of the leading cities, in some of the best bakeries and pastry shops.
 In the wake of his success sprang up many imitations to meet the new demand,
and inferior goods were put upon the market and sold at the prices which the
genuine products properly command.  (More s
tuff about the school--ed.)

26 February 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 2 full page ad:
Profits from DENMARK!
_Danish Pastry_ opens up to you a new field for profitable sales
(CRISCO by Procter & Gamble.  This ad ran weekly for a very long time--ed.)

13 March 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 11, col. 1:
_RESEARCH BAKERY GIVES RECIPE_
_Procter & Gamble Company Through_
_Experiments Tell How To Make A_
_Better Danish Pastry_
(If you advertise that much, I guess the papers have to give you a free
article--ed.)

7 April 1927, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 8, col. 1:
_Introduced Danish Pastry to New York_
_Herman Gertner Is the Man Who More Than Any Other_
_Is Responsible for the Great Vogue of Pastry in America_
(...)
   The genesis of his growth is that "every man deserves a chance."  This led
to his discovery of the chef who introduced Mr. Gertner to Danish pastry and
which led to Gertner's introducing Danish pastry to Broadway, New York, and
permanent stock engagements in the West.


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Nov  2 02:00:56 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 21:00:56 -0500
Subject: Quiet...
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.210056.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Recently, a salesman from Lebanon, PA, in talking about an air
conditioning system that his company installs, described the system as
being 'quiet'.  He pronounced the word as:  coy-ette    [ed.: please
excuse my lack of training in phonetics, and the appropriate IPA
symbols].

He used the same pronunciation several times, with my wife finally
asking him what the word meant.  He'd used a number of technical terms,
in reference to proprietary components of the air conditioning system,
and there was the contextual possibility that he meant something other
than 'quiet'.

He seemed to be surprised with our pronunciation of the word, and tried
to use our pronunciation in further conversation.  Needless to say, it
was not our intent to change his pronunciation.  Other words/phrases
that he used were typical of what we've heard for the area.  The
particular pronunciation of quiet was a new one for us.

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  2 03:06:34 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 22:06:34 EST
Subject: The Restaurateur
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.220634.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   That last cite from THE RESTAURATEUR about Herman Gertner is April 7, 1923
(not 1927).
   This New York City weekly publication (under two names) existed from
1923-1927 and from 1927-1931 (as THE RESTAURATEUR AND AMERICAN HOTELIER).
I'm trying to go through the entire thing.
   Here are some more items.

27 February 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 15, cols. 1-3:
_Honor Discoverer of "Pate de Foie Gras"_
   _Tribute to Inventor of Goose Liver Dainty to Pay Debt Owed by World's
Epicures_
   _Names of Cooks Seldom Given to "Master Dishes" and Chicken a la King was
of Quaker City Origin_
(Pg. 16, col. 3--ed.)
   The outstanding American example of nominal glory to skilled cooks is
William King, who was chef in the old Bellevue Hotel, in Philadelphia, about
1895.  A dyspeptic customer, to whome food seemed tempting, requested the
waiter one day to bring him something new.  So inspired, King prepared bits
of chicken, mushrooms, truffles, red and green peppers and cream.  The
dyspepsia victim ate heartily and demanded of the waiter who made the dish.
   Our chef, sir.  William King," he was told.
   "Oh, chicken a la King," remarked the customer.
(See ADS-L archives for William King--ed.)

15 May 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 4, cols. 1-2:
_SOLE A TEST OF PARIS RESTAURANTS_
_A Sure Indication of Cuisine Quality and Culinary Art.  The Quick Eateries
Are Known as "Prix Fixe"_
(Six or seven francs--ed.)

15 May 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 12, col. 2--They want variety; yet that
New England conservatism crops up, and they want the substantial things that
"mother used to make."  (OED on "mother used to make"?--ed.)

31 July 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 6, col. 1:
_"Meals on Wheels" Dinners Delivered_ (OED 1961?--ed.)
   THE London housewife who lives within a radius of two miles of Fulham Road
need not worry if she cann't manage to be at home in time to cook meals.  All
she has to do is to telephone to Mary's Meals on Wheels, headquarters in the
Fulham Road, and a hot three or four-course dinner will be waiting on her
doorstep whenever she wants it.

25 September 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, "The Art of Sandwich Making," pg. 3,
col. 1--_Some Three-Deckers_.

25 September 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 14, col. 2:
   _Big Apple Crop Being Harvested_
   New York State's 1926 apple crop is making vigorous entry into the
market...
(Neither this nor the 30 October 1926 story about NYC's Apple Week really
uses "Big Apple."  Again, I had  checked Apple Weeks and apple stories
thoroughly eight years ago--ed.)

23 October 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 16, col. 2:
   _The Continental Breakfast_
   The Continental breakfast is essentially simple.  Those served in
Switzerland and in Holland are the most delicious.  They consist almost of
the same dishes offered everywhere, but their breads are different.  (This
must have changed.  Now this means _nothing but_ coffee and a roll--ed.)

30 October 1926, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 8, col. 2:
   _INC. Means "I Need Cash"_
(Col. 3--ed.)  "A corporation," the restaurateur replied, "was formed because
I was short of cash--and Inc. at the end of the corporate name stands, in
abbreviated form, for 'I need cash.'"


From robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU  Thu Nov  2 13:42:24 2000
From: robert-wachal at UIOWA.EDU (Robert S. Wachal)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 07:42:24 -0600
Subject: African heritage
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.074224.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have an African American friend who would like to trace her heritage back
to Africa.  Is there some way to do this?  Would the slave narratives help,
and if so, how does one get access to them?

She is also part Mississippi Native American, hence probably Choctaw,
right?  Any way to trace that heritage?

Please reply directly to me.

TIA,  Bob Wachal


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Nov  2 13:51:30 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 08:51:30 -0500
Subject: Quiet...
In-Reply-To: <3A00CAD8.E4E17609@ark.ship.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.085130.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is a fairly common (minor) speech "defect." I doubt if it was the word
but a failure to realize /w/, perhpas only  after /k/. Too bad you didn't
listen for his pronunciation of "quick," "quit," "and the like.

There is, as well, reduction of labial "friction" geographically, of
course; what is referred to (unkindly) as the Barbara Walters' syndrome,
but I know of no studies of this.

dInIs

>Recently, a salesman from Lebanon, PA, in talking about an air
>conditioning system that his company installs, described the system as
>being 'quiet'.  He pronounced the word as:  coy-ette    [ed.: please
>excuse my lack of training in phonetics, and the appropriate IPA
>symbols].
>
>He used the same pronunciation several times, with my wife finally
>asking him what the word meant.  He'd used a number of technical terms,
>in reference to proprietary components of the air conditioning system,
>and there was the contextual possibility that he meant something other
>than 'quiet'.
>
>He seemed to be surprised with our pronunciation of the word, and tried
>to use our pronunciation in further conversation.  Needless to say, it
>was not our intent to change his pronunciation.  Other words/phrases
>that he used were typical of what we've heard for the area.  The
>particular pronunciation of quiet was a new one for us.
>
>George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
>Shippensburg University


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From lvonschn at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Thu Nov  2 02:19:26 2000
From: lvonschn at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Luanne von Schneidemesser)
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 20:19:26 -0600
Subject: floss and ghetto
Message-ID: <WED.1.NOV.2000.201926.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Two queries.  Someone asked about the meaning of ghetto, as in "that was
ghetto."  It must be fairly new; it's not in the HDAS.  My son uses it but
isn't a great definer so wasn't really helpful.  What's its earliest date?

Then I received the following:

I recently attended an Afrocentric poetry reading in which two of the poets
used the word "floss" in their poems.
It seemed, from the context of both poems, to be a pejorative reference to
an undesirable trait/behavior in African Americans. In one poem the subject
was a woman, and the other, a male "type". I think they both used the term
as a verb.
I do not have copies of the poems, or access to the poets--who are not
published.
Thanking you in advance for any suggestions you send me for tracking down
the meaning of this word.
Mimi Mitchell

Any help?  TIA.

Luanne


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Nov  2 14:16:26 2000
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:16:26 -0500
Subject: Lexicography Discussion Group at MLA
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.091626.0500.ABATEFR@EARTHLINK.NET>

Are there any MLA members out there who can tell us what day and time this session will be at the upcoming MLA convention in DC?  Thanks in advance.


Frank Abate

Dictionary & Reference Specialists (DRS)
Consulting & Lexicographic Services
(860) 510-0100, ext 2311
abatefr at earthlink.net
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From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Nov  2 14:20:05 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:20:05 -0500
Subject: Lexicography Discussion Group at MLA
In-Reply-To: <004601c044d7$7da81a00$9b01a8c0@fabate>; from
 abatefr@EARTHLINK.NET on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 09:16:26AM -0500
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.092005.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Are there any MLA members out there who can tell us what day and
> time this session will be at the upcoming MLA convention in DC?
> Thanks in advance.

It will be from 10:15 to 11:30 on Thursday, December 28.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Nov  2 14:28:07 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:28:07 -0500
Subject: floss and ghetto
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20001101201239.00b76100@facstaff.wisc.edu>; from
 lvonschn@FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU on Wed, Nov 01,
 2000 at 08:19:26PM -0600
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.092807.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Two queries.  Someone asked about the meaning of ghetto, as in "that was
> ghetto."  It must be fairly new; it's not in the HDAS.  My son uses it but
> isn't a great definer so wasn't really helpful.  What's its earliest date?

I don't think this is slang; it's just something like 'characteristic of
or suitable for inner-city life'. A more common noun-to-adjective shift
is _street_ in a similar sense. An example from a rap magazine:

1997 _Source_ Oct. 146/3, I was so ghetto, threatening the crowd, talking
about if anybody takes it, I'ma see you.


> I recently attended an Afrocentric poetry reading in which two of
> the poets used the word "floss" in their poems.  It seemed, from the
> context of both poems, to be a pejorative reference to an
> undesirable trait/behavior in African Americans. In one poem the
> subject was a woman, and the other, a male "type". I think they both
> used the term as a verb.

This seems to be a relatively recent addition to the lexicon, but
I've come across numerous examples in the last few months. Sample:

2000 W. Shaw _Westsiders: Stories of the Boys in the Hood_ 218
'Flossin'' is pretending to be something that you aren't. Archetypally,
hip-hoppers are accused of flossin' when they pretend to be affiliated
with gangs, when in fact very few are.

The earliest example I have right at hand is from 1995, but I don't
have any likely earlier sources.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Thu Nov  2 14:27:26 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:27:26 -0500
Subject: floss and ghetto
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.092726.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Geneva Smitherman's "Black Talk," there is an entry for

Flossin   "Pretending, faking something;putting on a front; trying to
appear calm and cool."

There is also an entry for

ghetto fabulous (sometimes ghetto fab) "Describes a person or thing that is
fantastic, the height of something, according to the authentic, natural,
"keepin it real" standards of Blackness that are believe to exist in ghetto
communities."


I hope this helps.


Joe





Luanne von Schneidemesser <lvonschn at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on
11/01/2000 09:19:26 PM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sent by:  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
cc:
Subject:  floss and ghetto


Two queries.  Someone asked about the meaning of ghetto, as in "that was
ghetto."  It must be fairly new; it's not in the HDAS.  My son uses it but
isn't a great definer so wasn't really helpful.  What's its earliest date?

Then I received the following:

I recently attended an Afrocentric poetry reading in which two of the poets
used the word "floss" in their poems.
It seemed, from the context of both poems, to be a pejorative reference to
an undesirable trait/behavior in African Americans. In one poem the subject
was a woman, and the other, a male "type". I think they both used the term
as a verb.
I do not have copies of the poems, or access to the poets--who are not
published.
Thanking you in advance for any suggestions you send me for tracking down
the meaning of this word.
Mimi Mitchell

Any help?  TIA.

Luanne


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Nov  2 14:30:37 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:30:37 -0500
Subject: floss and ghetto
In-Reply-To: <OFA03D1D83.3126C5E4-ON8525698B.004EFA96@hmco.com>; from
 Joe_Pickett@HMCO.COM on Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 09:27:26AM -0500
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.093037.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Nov 02, 2000 at 09:27:26AM -0500, Joe Pickett wrote:
> In Geneva Smitherman's "Black Talk," there is an entry for
>
> Flossin   "Pretending, faking something;putting on a front; trying to
> appear calm and cool."

(Just to clarify, Joe is citing from the 2000 edition of this book;
the original edition, in 1994, did not include this entry.)

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Thu Nov  2 14:29:54 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:29:54 -0500
Subject: Lexicography Discussion Group at MLA
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.092954.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The  MLA lexicography session will be held on

Thursday, December 28
10:15-11:30 AM
Maryland Suite B, Marriott

The subject is "Words on the Web"--the idea being how you use the web to
research words.

Several ADS members are giving papers.


Joe


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Thu Nov  2 14:32:49 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:32:49 -0500
Subject: floss and ghetto
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.093249.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Smitherman's book tends to support Jesse's evidence that these are recent
coinages.

Neither term appears in the 1994 copyright of Black Talk.  Both are in the
2000 copyright.

Joe





Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on 11/02/2000
09:28:07 AM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sent by:  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
cc:
Subject:  Re: floss and ghetto


> Two queries.  Someone asked about the meaning of ghetto, as in "that was
> ghetto."  It must be fairly new; it's not in the HDAS.  My son uses it
but
> isn't a great definer so wasn't really helpful.  What's its earliest
date?

I don't think this is slang; it's just something like 'characteristic of
or suitable for inner-city life'. A more common noun-to-adjective shift
is _street_ in a similar sense. An example from a rap magazine:

1997 _Source_ Oct. 146/3, I was so ghetto, threatening the crowd, talking
about if anybody takes it, I'ma see you.


> I recently attended an Afrocentric poetry reading in which two of
> the poets used the word "floss" in their poems.  It seemed, from the
> context of both poems, to be a pejorative reference to an
> undesirable trait/behavior in African Americans. In one poem the
> subject was a woman, and the other, a male "type". I think they both
> used the term as a verb.

This seems to be a relatively recent addition to the lexicon, but
I've come across numerous examples in the last few months. Sample:

2000 W. Shaw _Westsiders: Stories of the Boys in the Hood_ 218
'Flossin'' is pretending to be something that you aren't. Archetypally,
hip-hoppers are accused of flossin' when they pretend to be affiliated
with gangs, when in fact very few are.

The earliest example I have right at hand is from 1995, but I don't
have any likely earlier sources.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Thu Nov  2 15:10:28 2000
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:10:28 -0500
Subject: Query: Chaucer's use of French words
In-Reply-To: <v03130303b6267b40bedb@[131.151.64.128]>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.101028.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

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From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Thu Nov  2 15:35:27 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:35:27 EST
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.103527.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry Popik posted the following, regarding a marketing campaign by
Ballantine's brewery to induce drinkers to order their beer by making
a "3-ring" sign with the fingers.  This gesture is also known as the
"OK" sign.

        14 September 1939, BUCKEYE TAVERN, pg. 4, col. 4:   Also, if
        you ever pull that Three Fingered sign of Ballantine's beer in front
        of a nice Latin gal, you'll get a slap in the face.

Does anyone whon why a nice Latin gal would be offended at the
3-ring/OK sign?

GAT


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Nov  2 16:07:57 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:07:57 -0500
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.110757.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm presuming that whomever is offended at the 3-ring/OK sign is
offended because that gesture is the equivalent, in their culture, of
the raised middle finger in much of 'U.S. culture'.

Several years ago, one of my students from an Asian country asked why a
beer commercial ended with the guy, in the ad, making the (OK) sign
after taking a sip of beer.  He had thought that U.S. TV was
conservative, and was surprised to see such a gesture in one of our TV
commercials.

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Nov  2 16:27:51 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:27:51 -0500
Subject: ads website
In-Reply-To: <3A013D94.4854.4D5436DD@localhost>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.112751.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm currently unable to access the website. It's still at
americandialect.org, yes? It's redirecting me to an IP address at
10.0.0.1 which seems awfully odd...


--- Steve K.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  2 16:39:21 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:39:21 EST
Subject: ads website
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.113921.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/2/2000 12:28:14 PM, stevek at SHORE.NET writes:

<< I'm currently unable to access the website. It's still at
americandialect.org, yes? It's redirecting me to an IP address at
10.0.0.1 which seems awfully odd...


--- Steve K. >>

It just tells me that the site is not currently accepting callers--too busy,
it says. Ditto the MLA website.

CLEARLY, now that my hero, Al Gore, has INVENTED the internet he needs four
more years to make it WORK RIGHT! That explains how I wil vote on Tuesday.
Ralph Nader & Pat Buchanan would surely dismantle it; George Bush doesn't
even know for sure what it is, let alone how to pronunce it.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov  2 03:48:54 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 11:48:54 +0800
Subject: Quiet...
In-Reply-To: <l03130302b6272127416e@[35.8.73.31]>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.114854.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>This is a fairly common (minor) speech "defect." I doubt if it was the word
>but a failure to realize /w/, perhpas only  after /k/. Too bad you didn't
>listen for his pronunciation of "quick," "quit," "and the like.
>
Is it really a defect?  We've discussed non-labial pronunciations of
"quarter" (as [k)rt at r]) a while back, and I suspect it would be much
more likely for the "coy-ette" speaker to pronounce "quarter" that
way than to have non-labial pronunciations of "quick", "quit", and
other front vowel words.  I wonder if "quite" would be [kwayt] or
[k)yt] (as in "coyt") for this speaker.

larry


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov  2 17:04:33 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:04:33 +0100
Subject: www.americandialect.org
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.180433.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

On mercredi 1 novembre 2000 22:01, Grant Barrett <gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM> wrote:
>The ADS web site is experiencing a temporary glitch. Some visitors will get an
error
>when trying to load it. Everything should be fine by 6 a.m. Pacific time tomorrow,
>but in the meantime, if you can't load the site (and you should check first), use
one
>of the following:
>
>http://128.192.25.102/ads/
>
>http://us.english.uga.edu/ads/
>

The problem still exists. I am on it. Please use the addresses above.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Nov  2 17:11:23 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:11:23 -0500
Subject: Quiet...
In-Reply-To: <p04320402b6267b1fd3e0@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.121123.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Good pernt.

>>This is a fairly common (minor) speech "defect." I doubt if it was the word
>>but a failure to realize /w/, perhpas only  after /k/. Too bad you didn't
>>listen for his pronunciation of "quick," "quit," "and the like.
>>
>Is it really a defect?  We've discussed non-labial pronunciations of
>"quarter" (as [k)rt at r]) a while back, and I suspect it would be much
>more likely for the "coy-ette" speaker to pronounce "quarter" that
>way than to have non-labial pronunciations of "quick", "quit", and
>other front vowel words.  I wonder if "quite" would be [kwayt] or
>[k)yt] (as in "coyt") for this speaker.
>
>larry


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  2 17:49:54 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:49:54 EST
Subject: Datacasting
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.124954.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DATACASTING

   From the NEW YORK POST, 2 November 2000, pg. 38, col. 1:

_Silicon Valley says_
_datacasting is hot_
Chris Nolan
   THIS is either the next new thing or it's a money pit bigger than anything
any dot-com dilettante has dreamed up.
   It's called datacasting.  And while the details vary from company to
company, the fundamental idea is to use broadcast television signals to send
digital information to homes.
(Check www.nypost.com for the rest of the article--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

HAVES vs. HAVE-MORES--I'm seeing this instead of "Haves vs. Have-Nots."

ELECTORAL COLLEGE/VOTE SWAPPING (off topic)--George  Will's column in today's
NY Post is "Abolish the Electoral College?  What Anti-American Idiocy!"  The
big highlighted quote was "There _never_ has been an Electoral College
victory by a candidate who lost the popular vote by a substantial margin."
Thanks--we're concerned about _close_ election, George.
   He calls me a "simple-minded majoritarian."  (Such a nice insult, he
repeated it twice.) So is he for or against vote swapping?  So he supports
the candidates skipping New York entirely for--Wisconsin?  And he supports
the possibility that a candidate with the most votes could lose?


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov  2 18:00:31 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 19:00:31 +0100
Subject: Ghetto
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.190031.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

On jeudi 2 novembre 2000 15:27, Joe Pickett <Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM> wrote:

>In Geneva Smitherman's "Black Talk," there is an entry for
>
>ghetto fabulous (sometimes ghetto fab) "Describes a person or thing that is
>fantastic, the height of something, according to the authentic, natural,
>"keepin it real" standards of Blackness that are believe to exist in ghetto
>communities."

and

On jeudi 2 novembre 2000 15:28, Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:

>I don't think this is slang; it's just something like 'characteristic
>of or suitable for inner-city life'. A more common noun-to-adjective
>shift is _street_ in a similar sense. An example from a rap magazine:
>
>1997 _Source_ Oct. 146/3, I was so ghetto, threatening the crowd,
>talking about if anybody takes it, I'ma see you.


This are both inconsistent with my current main understanding of ghetto, which is
more in line with "white trash" values: cheap (tight, miserly), lazy, niggardly, maybe
jerry-rigged (half-assed), ill-mannered, uncouth, uncivilized.

Also, I see from the archives that in 1997 I posted this:

There's a New York City usage of "ghetto" that means something like:
"provincial/local/unworldly/neighborhood-dwelling/small-town-like." The young
Hispanic couple
I met lost in Central Park this past summer would be ghetto: After they told me they
had been lost
in the park for hours, I assumed they were from the outer boroughs or Jersey, but
they turned out
to be from Alphabet City (about 60 blocks away, a few miles at most).

A piece a couple of weeks ago in the New York Times Magazine (I believe) had a
Chinese-American who described himself and his friends as being very "ghetto" when
they would
walk 80 blocks to Gray's Papaya in order to eat 50 cent frankfurters and to avoid
paying $3.00
each for the round-trip subway ride. There was also a vague subtext of "ghetto"
including
customs that belonged only to a certain neighborhood (in this case New York's
Chinatown), such
as wearing a long lock of hair in the front, and wearing very wide-legged jeans (as
much as 30


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Nov  2 18:01:29 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:01:29 -0800
Subject: "O. K." sign
In-Reply-To: <3A01915D.BB272F37@ark.ship.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.100129.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oh, no!!!

A few years ago I used the "o.k." sign in a conversation with my very
gracious hosts on a visit to China.  They didn't seem to get it, so I
provided a translation.  Only later did it occur to me to wonder if in fact
I had inadvertently given them the finger.  Your message removes the veil
of hopeful ignorance I've carefully maintained ever since.

Peter Mc.

--On Thu, Nov 2, 2000 11:07 AM -0500 GSCole <gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU> wrote:

> I'm presuming that whomever is offended at the 3-ring/OK sign is
> offended because that gesture is the equivalent, in their culture, of
> the raised middle finger in much of 'U.S. culture'.
>
> Several years ago, one of my students from an Asian country asked why a
> beer commercial ended with the guy, in the ad, making the (OK) sign
> after taking a sip of beer.  He had thought that U.S. TV was
> conservative, and was surprised to see such a gesture in one of our TV
> commercials.
>
> George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
> Shippensburg University



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Nov  2 18:17:52 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:17:52 -0500
Subject: "O. K." sign
In-Reply-To: <3A01915D.BB272F37@ark.ship.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.131752.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I'm presuming that whomever is offended at the 3-ring/OK sign is
>offended because that gesture is the equivalent, in their culture, of
>the raised middle finger in much of 'U.S. culture'.
>
>Several years ago, one of my students from an Asian country asked why a
>beer commercial ended with the guy, in the ad, making the (OK) sign
>after taking a sip of beer.  He had thought that U.S. TV was
>conservative, and was surprised to see such a gesture in one of our TV
>commercials.

This is an interesting topic. Can someone direct me to a Web-site giving a
large list of gestures? Or to a book?

I have heard of the gesture with the thumb between the forefinger and
middle finger of the closed fist -- isn't this the one called "the fig"?
I've also heard of the 'OK' sign being an equivalent obscene gesture
somewhere. Somebody once told me that a two-finger salute (forefinger +
middle finger) like a reversed 'peace sign' or 'victory sign' is used in
Britain like the single upraised middle finger is in the US and elsewhere.

And what about the finger pulling down the lower eyelid? Or the (forefinger
+ little finger) salute? Or the finger to the side of the nose? I can't say
exactly what these mean right now.

I note that during my misspent youth in the US I sometimes encountered the
'OK' sign with the hand turned upside-down, as if one were presenting a
cylindrical object end-on; this was used with an obvious obscene sense
between males, but usually humorously, sometimes accompanied by some remark
(I found "Speak into the microphone, please" rather amusing).

In London about 10 years ago, a kind UK native filled me in on some current
British culture, including the 'OK' sign formed very close to the forehead
or temple to mean "dickhead" -- apparently used in traffic particularly.

-- Doug Wilson


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Nov  2 18:33:51 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:33:51 -0500
Subject: "O. K." sign
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001102122935.030c0910@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.133351.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not at home so I can't give any gesture references, but I have just
descended one floor and consulted a large number of Chinese native
speaker-gesturers. The results are as follows:

All Taiwanese repsondents said the sign means "OK." They also believe it is
borrowed from AmerEng.

All mainland Chinese repsondents said it meant nothing. When I then pressed
them for similar gestures which might have obscene (or sexual) meanings,
they all still said "no." When I specifically asked them if it meant the
same thing as "giving the finger" (which they all knew), they emphatially
said "no" (and they copvered quite a few areas of mainland China).

Please don't write in with the suspicion that they were being too polite.

dInIs (lucky to have respondents so close by)

PS: So far as I know, the sexual meaning referred to is pretty common all
over Latin America (and is not a "variant" of the "figa").

>>I'm presuming that whomever is offended at the 3-ring/OK sign is
>>offended because that gesture is the equivalent, in their culture, of
>>the raised middle finger in much of 'U.S. culture'.
>>
>>Several years ago, one of my students from an Asian country asked why a
>>beer commercial ended with the guy, in the ad, making the (OK) sign
>>after taking a sip of beer.  He had thought that U.S. TV was
>>conservative, and was surprised to see such a gesture in one of our TV
>>commercials.
>
>This is an interesting topic. Can someone direct me to a Web-site giving a
>large list of gestures? Or to a book?
>
>I have heard of the gesture with the thumb between the forefinger and
>middle finger of the closed fist -- isn't this the one called "the fig"?
>I've also heard of the 'OK' sign being an equivalent obscene gesture
>somewhere. Somebody once told me that a two-finger salute (forefinger +
>middle finger) like a reversed 'peace sign' or 'victory sign' is used in
>Britain like the single upraised middle finger is in the US and elsewhere.
>
>And what about the finger pulling down the lower eyelid? Or the (forefinger
>+ little finger) salute? Or the finger to the side of the nose? I can't say
>exactly what these mean right now.
>
>I note that during my misspent youth in the US I sometimes encountered the
>'OK' sign with the hand turned upside-down, as if one were presenting a
>cylindrical object end-on; this was used with an obvious obscene sense
>between males, but usually humorously, sometimes accompanied by some remark
>(I found "Speak into the microphone, please" rather amusing).
>
>In London about 10 years ago, a kind UK native filled me in on some current
>British culture, including the 'OK' sign formed very close to the forehead
>or temple to mean "dickhead" -- apparently used in traffic particularly.
>
>-- Doug Wilson


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Thu Nov  2 18:26:15 2000
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 13:26:15 -0500
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.132615.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:01 AM 11/2/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>Oh, no!!!
>
>A few years ago I used the "o.k." sign in a conversation with my very
>gracious hosts on a visit to China.  They didn't seem to get it, so I
>provided a translation.  Only later did it occur to me to wonder if in fact
>I had inadvertently given them the finger.  Your message removes the veil
>of hopeful ignorance I've carefully maintained ever since.
>
>Peter Mc.
>

I don't know if the Latin American gesture is known in China, though the
American one is quite possibly unfamiliar there. However, the American
gesture is so common here in the US that travelers and expatriates often
assume it is a universal gesture of approval and therefore highly useful to
those with an imperfect knowledge of the local language.

The similar gesture that is currently under disussion is known throughout
(?) Latin America, including Brasil where the language is Ports. not
Spanish. It is not identical to the US gesture, at least not in the parts of
Brasil where I resided -- the US gesture places the thumb at the bottom of
the gesture and the Latin American one is basically inverted, with the thumb
at the top. I was told that the origin of the LatAm gesture is some kind of
negative comment on the anal aperture of the person at whom it is directed,
but of course this may be folklore or a distortion, and there may well be a
variety of "explanations" for the genture.

Actually, in urban and toruist areas, a fair number of Brasilians are
familiar with the American gesture and are not at all confused by it.
However, they will sometimes point out that it is best avoided because of
the resemblance to what is, in not a few contexts, a taboo gesture locally.
Use and non-use of the US gesture were a signifiant barometer of
newbie/non-newbie status among American kids in the US-curriculum high
school I attended in Sao Paulo.


Greg Downing, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Nov  2 18:58:22 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 10:58:22 -0800
Subject: "O. K." sign
In-Reply-To: <l03130301b62762b5a82e@[35.8.73.31]>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.105822.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you, DInIs!!!


--On Thu, Nov 2, 2000 1:33 PM -0500 "Dennis R. Preston"
<preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU> wrote:

> I'm not at home so I can't give any gesture references, but I have just
> descended one floor and consulted a large number of Chinese native
> speaker-gesturers. The results are as follows:
>
> All Taiwanese repsondents said the sign means "OK." They also believe it
> is borrowed from AmerEng.
>
> All mainland Chinese repsondents said it meant nothing. When I then
> pressed them for similar gestures which might have obscene (or sexual)
> meanings, they all still said "no." When I specifically asked them if it
> meant the same thing as "giving the finger" (which they all knew), they
> emphatially said "no" (and they copvered quite a few areas of mainland
> China).

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU  Thu Nov  2 19:08:12 2000
From: krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU (Karl J. Krahnke)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 12:08:12 -0700
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.120812.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the very limited but strongly standardized gestural language used in scuba
diving, the circled thumb and finger mean "ok."  This is taught by a number of
international scuba certification agencies all over the world.  I have never
heard of a local substitution on the basis of taboo or ambiguity.  Could happen
tho.  I'll ask around.

Karl Krahnke
English Department
Colorado State University


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov  2 19:15:31 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:15:31 +0100
Subject: O. K. sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.201531.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

When I was a kid, we used to do the OK sign, hand held down low close to the body,
the circle facing up, fingers splayed out. We'd hold it there until someone looked at
it, then we got to hit them. I dunno why.


From janivars at BAHNHOF.SE  Thu Nov  2 19:47:23 2000
From: janivars at BAHNHOF.SE (Jan Ivarsson)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:47:23 +0100
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.204723.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is a book on French sign language by
Genevi?ve Calbris & Jacques Montredon
"Des gestes et des mots pour le dire"
published in 1986 (with later reprints) by
 Cl? International, 79, avenue Denfert-Rochereau,
 75014 Paris
This book gives the sense of this gesture as "au quart de poil"
which means "perfectly" or "very good".
In Italy, the same gesture will be interpreted as
very obscene.

Jan Ivarsson, Sweden

----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: den 2 november 2000 19:17
Subject: Re: "O. K." sign


> >I'm presuming that whomever is offended at the 3-ring/OK sign is
> >offended because that gesture is the equivalent, in their culture, of
> >the raised middle finger in much of 'U.S. culture'.
> >
> >Several years ago, one of my students from an Asian country asked why a
> >beer commercial ended with the guy, in the ad, making the (OK) sign
> >after taking a sip of beer.  He had thought that U.S. TV was
> >conservative, and was surprised to see such a gesture in one of our TV
> >commercials.
>
> This is an interesting topic. Can someone direct me to a Web-site giving a
> large list of gestures? Or to a book?
>
> I have heard of the gesture with the thumb between the forefinger and
> middle finger of the closed fist -- isn't this the one called "the fig"?
> I've also heard of the 'OK' sign being an equivalent obscene gesture
> somewhere. Somebody once told me that a two-finger salute (forefinger +
> middle finger) like a reversed 'peace sign' or 'victory sign' is used in
> Britain like the single upraised middle finger is in the US and elsewhere.
>
> And what about the finger pulling down the lower eyelid? Or the (forefinger
> + little finger) salute? Or the finger to the side of the nose? I can't say
> exactly what these mean right now.
>
> I note that during my misspent youth in the US I sometimes encountered the
> 'OK' sign with the hand turned upside-down, as if one were presenting a
> cylindrical object end-on; this was used with an obvious obscene sense
> between males, but usually humorously, sometimes accompanied by some remark
> (I found "Speak into the microphone, please" rather amusing).
>
> In London about 10 years ago, a kind UK native filled me in on some current
> British culture, including the 'OK' sign formed very close to the forehead
> or temple to mean "dickhead" -- apparently used in traffic particularly.
>
> -- Doug Wilson


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  2 21:01:17 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 16:01:17 EST
Subject: NADS 32.3
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.160117.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This afternoon (Nov. 2) the "September" issue of the Newsletter of the
American Dialect Society at last entered the mailstream. It goes first class
in the U.S. and by air elsewhere, so ADS members should get their copies
within a few days.

For the past week you've also been able to read it via PDF at the ADS
website. Now you'll have a copy that can stay with you even if the lights go
out.

The next issue is intended for January, shortly after our annual meeting; and
with the help of a capable new student assistant, I think I'll be able to get
back on schedule with that one. Meanwhile, thanks for your patience with
this; and please send me your news, address corrections, etc. - Allan Metcalf


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Nov  2 23:13:52 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 18:13:52 -0500
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.181352.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OK, I should have asked my student just where it was, in his many
travels, that he was informed that our finger gesture of OK was the
equivalent of an obscene gesture.  My initial presumption does not
appear to be OK.

Dennis' comments caused me to wonder why I hadn't earlier pursued the
'hand gestures' topic with some of my colleagues.  Years ago, in Korea,
I'd learned that the U.S. good-bye wave was akin to the Korean gesture
for 'come here.'  That misunderstanding caused a minor problem on a DMZ
patrol.  I don't doubt that there are other gestures, however subtle,
that leave room for misunderstanding.

I sought some clarification from Roger E. Axtell's -- Gestures: The Do's
and Taboos of Body Language Around the World, as published by John Wiley
& Sons in 1991.  The eyelid pull, as noted in Doug's question, is among
the many gestures discussed in the book.

Axtell has a couple of pages with information on the 'O.K. sign'.  He
closes one section with the statement that "Better, perhaps, to quickly
learn the words in the local language for 'Yes' and 'Fine' and keep your
hands at your side.  Elsewhere, in the book, he notes that the OK sign
is likely to be an insult of some sort in:  Malta, Sardinia, Greece,
Brazil, Tunisia, Italy, Turkey, the Soviet Union, and Paraguay.

A web site that contains some of the Axtell information is:
http://www.webofculture.com/refs/gestures.html

Central and South American gestures at:
http://www.webofculture.com/refs/gesture_s_am.html

Other, web sites that present some info:
http://www.salonmag.com/wlust/road/1998/11/19road.html
http://www.transimage.com/Ges/GesOK.html

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Nov  2 23:46:59 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:46:59 -0800
Subject: Danish Pastry (still cooking)
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.154659.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    More on the Danish Pastry.

So Klitteng introduced Danish Pastry to the US and
Herman Gertner, supposedly a student of Klitteng,
popularized it...or is this a dispute as to who
introduced Danish Pastry?



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
>From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer.
http://experts.yahoo.com/


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Nov  2 23:51:47 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 15:51:47 -0800
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.155147.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:

> And what about the finger pulling down the lower
> eyelid?

Mon oeil ... my eye ... same meaning of doubt or
skepticism as in english.

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
>From homework help to love advice, Yahoo! Experts has your answer.
http://experts.yahoo.com/


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov  2 11:34:04 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 19:34:04 +0800
Subject: more vowel weirdness
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.193404.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For anyone who watches "The West Wing", or more specifically the last
two episodes, including last night's--are the /o/s of the new cast
addition, Ainsley the Republican lawyer, an affectation or a regional
trait, and if the latter, which region?  They're sort of fronted at
the first part of the diphthong, but there's something else going on.
I thought it might be a certain kind of private school education
feature, but a friend thought maybe Missouri.

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  3 01:08:30 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:08:30 EST
Subject: Los Angeles Free Press (1964-1965)
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.200830.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I went through about a year of the Los Angeles Free Press.  By the way, it
wasn't free.  It was ten cents.  The price has since been dropped--free at
last!

17 September 1964, LAFP, pg. 1, cols. 4-5--(Photos of political buttons,
including "peace" sign.)

24 September 1964, LAFP, pg. 1, cols 1-2--(Photo of the closed "CAFE
EXPRESSO.")

24 September 1964, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 2--MONEYTHEISM. (...)
"God gives me--100%
I return to God--10%
Balance to me--90%"

24 September 1964, LAFP, pg. 4, col. 2--...I still prefer the non-offensive
such as "having intercourse" or even "mating" of the rather clumsy "making
love"...

24 September 1964, LAFP, pg. 5, col. 1--The "puff-in" calls for a large group
to light up marijuana cigarettes in the police station, challenging the law.
(...)  He had first announced to the press his intention to "turn-on" at the
police station.

22 October 1964, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 2--Here is a list of names, those who
constitute the real creme de la creme of Los Angeles power and influence.
This is "the establishment."

12 November 1964, LAFP, pg. 1, col. 1:
_"KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE PRIZE"_
(Pg. 3, col. 1--ed.)
_"Snick" Challenges The White Power Structure_
(...)  One of their songs goes:
Paul and Silas, bound in jail,
Had no money for to go their bail
Keep your eyes on the prize--hold on...

19 November 1964, LAFP, pg. 4, col. 4--One last word, and I continue this
letter because I did enjoy being in California, and would not waste my time
writing, if I did not feel strongly assured that the marvelous will happen as
suddenly there in LOBSTER LAND (to quote Jack Smith) as it did happen in New
York City.

26 November 1964, LAFP, pg. 12, cols 4-5 cartoon:
The _real_ people don't have beards after all!
But if I shave mine off now--I'll look like a phony trying to look like a
_real_ person.

3 December 1964, LAFP, pg.1 headline--OUR OFF-OFF BROADWAY.

18 December 1964, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--DAMNED IF YOU DO AND DAMNED IF YOU
DON'T.

22 January 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--THE NEW STATE OF DISNEYLAND: To
immunize the city of Los Angeles against further Disneyfication, Disneyland
could be made a separate state...

12 February 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--ONE STEP FORWARD AND TWO STEPS BACK.

19 February 1965, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 3--In Japan, the Gutai group started off
the current wave of happenings in the early 1950s with an art show in the sky
(balloons, kites, etc. from the roof of a department store)...

5 March 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--WHEN YOU GOTTA GO--The latest movement is
a civil rights movement to restore to Americans the right to free toilets in
public places.  (...)  The wording of the Proposition had not yet been
annnounced, nor has the Proposition been given a number as yet, but the Wasp
(Lawrence Lipton's column--ed.), always first in every good movement,
suggests the slogan: VOTE YES ON No. 2.

19 March 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--THE STRATEGY OF ONE FELL SWOOP: Or is it
the Swell Foop?

19 March 1965, LAFP, pg. 3, cols. 1-2:
_WHAT'S IN A WORD?_
_"PHUQUE" WON'T DO_
(Free speech on Berkeley campus--ed.)

16 April 1965, LAFP, pg. 5, cols. 1-3 ad:
LARRY MOYER'S
"THE MOVING FINGER"
Winner "Best Director" Award
San Francisco Film Festival
SEE...Freakos...wierdies (sic)...sickos...corrupt fuzz...faggots...wasted
youth...smut...
(The illustration shows "the finger."  RHHDAS doesn't cite/"finger" this
film. I couldn't tell you about the script.  Movie reviews of this film
should be checked for "the bird"--ed.)

30 April 1965, pg. 5, col. 1:
_NO FREAKO FOR MOVING FINGER_
(Larry Moyers, a 41-year-old New Yorker, says he made the film in
1962-63--ed.)
(Col. 5--ed.)
   "The (sic) showed it to the exploitation guys and they said, 'There's no
tits, there's no ass.  There's nothing in this damned picture.'
   "So I said, 'Why don't we cut all these things right into the picture.  If
they want tits and ass, let's give 'em tits and ass.'  Which was a
revolutionary thing then."
(No "T&A" though--ed.)

14 May 1965, LAFP, pg. 1 headline:
_Teach-Ins, Teach-Outs, White-Outs_.

21 May 1965, LAFP, "WHITE-OUT BLACKED-OUT," pg. 1, col. 3--...a "White-Out"
covering their exhibits of paintings and sculpture with bands of white papers
bearing the stop escalation symbol of the protest movement.
("Peace" symbol?--ed.)

28 May 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 2--The question is whether or not the
particular pbject is so-called "hard-core pornography".

25 June 1965, LAFP, pg. 7, col. 2--Mr. "Jesus H. Christ"?

25 June 1965, LAFP, "MAN, JUST TELL IT LIKE IT IS," pg. 6, col. 2:
   The actors are articulate and voluble about the play.  "This play is
different because it's the truth," they tell you.  "We go on stage and we
tell it like it is."
(Col. 4 end of article--ed.)
   As you walk out into the street, an actor calls after you in Negro tones,
"When you write it, man, tell it like it is, just tell it like it is."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov  2 12:52:07 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 20:52:07 +0800
Subject: Los Angeles Free Press (1964-1965)
In-Reply-To: <ca.c41a62e.27336a0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.205207.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:08 PM -0500 11/2/00, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>
>19 February 1965, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 3--In Japan, the Gutai group started off
>the current wave of happenings in the early 1950s with an art show in the sky
>(balloons, kites, etc. from the roof of a department store)...

A slightly later development which may or not be verifiable in the
Freep, probably some issue from the fall of '66 or spring '67, is the
"human be-in" (which evolved into the "love-in").  I was in LA at the
time, and we always maintained that WE had the be-in/love-in first,
before they made it to Berkeley.  I can't find "be-in" in the RHHDAS,
but that source (and the OED2) does confirm my hypothesis of
provenance for the "love-in", whose first three citings are all
L.A.-based, and all from the spring of 1967.  (The first cite is from
the L.A. Times of March 27, 1967.)  Barry, I wonder if your perusals
of the Freep will turn-up an earlier "love-in" (not that much
earlier, I'd wager--that spring before the summer of love would be
about right) or "(human) be-in".

larry


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  3 02:00:18 2000
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:00:18 EST
Subject: more vowel weirdness
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.210018.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If this is the feature I think you mean, I've noticed it from private school
grads (Exeter, Andover, Lawrenceville, and others) as far back as the late
70s.   A fronted first element-- almost as in RP. I always wondered how
widespread it was.

Dale Coye
The College of NJ


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  3 02:05:21 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:05:21 EST
Subject: Danish Pastry & Herman Gertner
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.210521.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the NEW YORK TIMES, 23 January 1962, pg. 33, col. 4:

_HERMAN GERTNER,_
_EX-RESTAURATEUR_
_Retired Owner of Chain on_
_Broadway Dies at 90_
   Herman Gertner, a well-known Broadway restaurateur a generation ago, died
yesterday at his home, 185 Riverside Drive.  He was 90 years aold.
   Mr. Gertner has often been given credit for introducing Danish pastry to
New York, and one of his bus boys was Leo Lindy, who later became famous for
his own establishment, Lindy's.
   At one time, Mr. Gertner had five resaurants operating along Broadway,
between Thirty-eighth and Ninety-seventh Streets.  He started in the
restaurant business on the lower East Side in 1903 or 1904, his relatives
recall, then opened a restaurant in the Broadway Central Hotel before moving
uptown.
   At one point during his career Mr. Gertner befriended a Danish baker who
convinced him that Danish pastry might be well received in New York.  Mr.
Gertner began serving the pastry in his restaurant and it immediately was a
success.
   Mr. Lindy, who started as a bus boy and later was promoted to waiter,
married Mr. Gertner's sister.  Mr. Gertner later made Mr. Lindy a manager of
one of his Broadway spots.  He retired from the business a quarter of a
century ago.
   He is survived by his widow, the former Frieda Engel; a son, Philip, of
New York; a sister, Mrs. Regina Abend of New York, and a grandchild.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov  3 02:51:41 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:51:41 -0500
Subject: floss and ghetto
In-Reply-To: <20001102092807.C23010@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.215141.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> is _street_ in a similar sense. An example from a rap magazine:
>
> 1997 _Source_ Oct. 146/3, I was so ghetto, threatening the crowd, talking
> about if anybody takes it, I'ma see you.

Here's an earlier example:

1996 _Wash. Post_ 27 Dec. (Nexis)  But that stuff doesn't mean anything to
me because I'm so ghetto.


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Nov  3 03:09:06 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:09:06 -0500
Subject: Fug
In-Reply-To: <20001101121833.A25848@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.220906.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"Fug" is mentioned in the note for _fuck_ v.: "the recent forms
>_fug, fugg_ are printed euphem. and do not represent pronun."
>There's an example of "mothafuggah" from one of Gover's later works
>cited at _motherfucker._ The forms that we broke out for separate
>treatment are, for the most part, not just printed euphemisms but
>different formations.

Maybe that's what Lighter (?) thinks, and maybe it's true for Gover (has he
been asked?) ...

In some cases "fug" = "f*ck" does represent pronunciation.

In Dan Simmons' new novel "Darwin's Blade":

I see the word "fuck" repeatedly -- "fucking" at least eight times on p.
45, for example. No need for 'printed euphemism' here.

But ... on p. 76: <<He ... recorded a new message on the answering machine:
"Yo, dis is Vito. Dere's nobody home but me an' the Dobermans. You got
sometin' to say to me ... say it! Otherwise, hang the fug up!">>

Clumsy writing perhaps, but the intention to represent pronunciation is
clear enough. I've seen other cases which I think are comparable.

[I'm not trying to assert that "fug" (in this sense) -- or "dis" or "dere"
for dat matter -- should have separate treatment.]

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Nov  3 03:35:20 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:35:20 -0500
Subject: Ghetto
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10011022150100.2367-100000@minerva.cis.yale. edu>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.223520.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > 1997 _Source_ Oct. 146/3, I was so ghetto, threatening the crowd, talking
> > about if anybody takes it, I'ma see you.
>
>Here's an earlier example:
>
>1996 _Wash. Post_ 27 Dec. (Nexis)  But that stuff doesn't mean anything to
>me because I'm so ghetto.

It seems to me that this is just an attributive noun becoming a
full-fledged adjective. One of the signs is its appearance as a predicate.

A similar case: the RH dictionary lists the adjective "country", with an
example "country roads". Surely this is fully analogous to "city streets",
but no adjective "city" is listed. Just about any noun can be used
attributively -- e.g., "I'm a city boy" or "I'm a country boy" -- but "He's
so country" sounds natural, while "He's so city" does not (at least not to
me, and presumably not to the RH folks) -- although I'm sure the latter
appears occasionally ... probably you'll even see "He's so Staten Island"
somewhere ....

-- Doug Wilson


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Nov  3 03:55:36 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:55:36 -0500
Subject: Quiet...
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.225536.0500.>

I have noted this phonetic phenomenon in some Malayalam speakers of
English. They don't articulate very well; hence their failure to realize
the /kw/ sound which does exist in Malayalam phonetics. Thus, QUIET gets
pronounced as (COY.et) or (COY.ut). I am putting the stress on the first
syllable because that way it is closer to actual speech than with the
stress on the second, Malayalam (mal.uh.YAH.lum) or, better,
(mul.uh.YAH.lum) having only long and short sounds, no stresses.

Same for QUICK which is heard as (kik), but QUIT is not heard as (kit).
Just sloppy enunciation, I would think. I am not a Malayalam scholar,
not even a socalled "native speaker"!

I hope all this doesn't sound too unscientific and outlandish!

Tom Paikeday



"Dennis R. Preston" wrote:
>
> This is a fairly common (minor) speech "defect." I doubt if it was the word
> but a failure to realize /w/, perhpas only  after /k/. Too bad you didn't
> listen for his pronunciation of "quick," "quit," "and the like.
>
> There is, as well, reduction of labial "friction" geographically, of
> course; what is referred to (unkindly) as the Barbara Walters' syndrome,
> but I know of no studies of this.
>
> dInIs
>
> >Recently, a salesman from Lebanon, PA, in talking about an air
> >conditioning system that his company installs, described the system as
> >being 'quiet'.  He pronounced the word as:  coy-ette    [ed.: please
> >excuse my lack of training in phonetics, and the appropriate IPA
> >symbols].
> >
> >He used the same pronunciation several times, with my wife finally
> >asking him what the word meant.  He'd used a number of technical terms,
> >in reference to proprietary components of the air conditioning system,
> >and there was the contextual possibility that he meant something other
> >than 'quiet'.
> >
> >He seemed to be surprised with our pronunciation of the word, and tried
> >to use our pronunciation in further conversation.  Needless to say, it
> >was not our intent to change his pronunciation.  Other words/phrases
> >that he used were typical of what we've heard for the area.  The
> >particular pronunciation of quiet was a new one for us.
> >
> >George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
> >Shippensburg University
>
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736


From gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov  3 03:58:09 2000
From: gd2 at IS2.NYU.EDU (Gregory {Greg} Downing)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:58:09 -0500
Subject: The road from place-name to adjective (was Re: Ghetto)
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.225809.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:35 PM 11/2/2000 -0500, "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:
>probably you'll even see "He's so Staten Island" somewhere ....
>

Not to mention "so Brooklyn," "so Jersey," "so Long Island," "so Philly," etc.

Greg in Staten Island





Greg Downing, at greg.downing at nyu.edu or gd2 at is2.nyu.edu


From emckean at ENTERACT.COM  Fri Nov  3 04:14:25 2000
From: emckean at ENTERACT.COM (emckean at ENTERACT.COM)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:14:25 -0600
Subject: "O. K." sign
In-Reply-To: <3A01F530.59278530@ark.ship.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.221425.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

With all these wonderful sources listed below, *somebody* ought to be able
to write a quick article on this for VERBATIM. Hint, hint. (1200-2000
words, by Dec. 1?)

(and don't forget to send George a finder's fee!).

Erin McKean
editor at verbatimmag.com



On Thu, 2 Nov 2000, GSCole wrote:

> OK, I should have asked my student just where it was, in his many
> travels, that he was informed that our finger gesture of OK was the
> equivalent of an obscene gesture.  My initial presumption does not
> appear to be OK.
>
> Dennis' comments caused me to wonder why I hadn't earlier pursued the
> 'hand gestures' topic with some of my colleagues.  Years ago, in Korea,
> I'd learned that the U.S. good-bye wave was akin to the Korean gesture
> for 'come here.'  That misunderstanding caused a minor problem on a DMZ
> patrol.  I don't doubt that there are other gestures, however subtle,
> that leave room for misunderstanding.
>
> I sought some clarification from Roger E. Axtell's -- Gestures: The Do's
> and Taboos of Body Language Around the World, as published by John Wiley
> & Sons in 1991.  The eyelid pull, as noted in Doug's question, is among
> the many gestures discussed in the book.
>
> Axtell has a couple of pages with information on the 'O.K. sign'.  He
> closes one section with the statement that "Better, perhaps, to quickly
> learn the words in the local language for 'Yes' and 'Fine' and keep your
> hands at your side.  Elsewhere, in the book, he notes that the OK sign
> is likely to be an insult of some sort in:  Malta, Sardinia, Greece,
> Brazil, Tunisia, Italy, Turkey, the Soviet Union, and Paraguay.
>
> A web site that contains some of the Axtell information is:
> http://www.webofculture.com/refs/gestures.html
>
> Central and South American gestures at:
> http://www.webofculture.com/refs/gesture_s_am.html
>
> Other, web sites that present some info:
> http://www.salonmag.com/wlust/road/1998/11/19road.html
> http://www.transimage.com/Ges/GesOK.html
>
> George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
> Shippensburg University
>


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Fri Nov  3 04:46:39 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 22:46:39 -0600
Subject: more vowel weirdness
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.224639.0600.>

I haven't seen the series, so I can't comment on any connection to Missouri.  I've heard
the "sort of fronted" onset in the articulation of /o/ in a variety of regional
pronunciations, including some people in Missouri.  Often it strikes me as a pseudo-formal
or pseudo-sophisticated pronunciation, but for some people it's the usual pronunciation,
including a friend (female) from West Virginia, born about 1927.   This pronunciation is
rather strong in her speech, and her husband uses it frequently, particularly in a formal
register.  But I haven't had the patience to do any systematic collection of data on this
item.
DMLance

Laurence Horn wrote:

> For anyone who watches "The West Wing", or more specifically the last
> two episodes, including last night's--are the /o/s of the new cast
> addition, Ainsley the Republican lawyer, an affectation or a regional
> trait, and if the latter, which region?  They're sort of fronted at
> the first part of the diphthong, but there's something else going on.
> I thought it might be a certain kind of private school education
> feature, but a friend thought maybe Missouri.
>
> larry


From natebrown1 at JUNO.COM  Fri Nov  3 12:10:46 2000
From: natebrown1 at JUNO.COM (Nathan H Brown)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:10:46 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.071046.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've heard that fronted /oU/ sound in several dialects. It's the sound
used in standard British speech. In America, I've heard it in southern
New Jersey, Philadelphia and Baltimore. I've also heard it in West
Virginia, from a 30-year-old or so contestant on "Who Wants to Be a
Millionaire." His parents, though, used the General American /oU/. DARE
says that it's a Philadelphia/Baltimore/Pittsburgh/eastern North Carolina
feature that has been spreading; maybe it has been spreading in West
Virginia. Ainsley is supposed to be from North Carolina; she could be
from the eastern part of the state. A friend of mine from Kansas City
says she's never used the sound or heard it in Kansas City; I guess it's
not heard in that part of Missouri.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Nov  3 12:51:06 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 07:51:06 -0500
Subject: more vowel weirdness
In-Reply-To: <69.c6a635a.27337632@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.075106.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Careful of its widespreadedness. Its source at the yuppie places you
mention is almost certainly RP (although I'd be happy to hear of other
theories), but back-vowel fronting is rampant in the American South and,
with slightly different pohonetic details, "Valley Girl," the latter
spreading like wildfire to the East. All these similar shifts may be
bumping heads in some places.

dInIs


>If this is the feature I think you mean, I've noticed it from private school
>grads (Exeter, Andover, Lawrenceville, and others) as far back as the late
>70s.   A fronted first element-- almost as in RP. I always wondered how
>widespread it was.
>
>Dale Coye
>The College of NJ


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Fri Nov  3 03:53:12 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 21:53:12 -0600
Subject: NADS 32.3
Message-ID: <THU.2.NOV.2000.215312.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

I won't get NADS cause my membership keeps expiring.  How do I officially
re-join ADS?

----- Original Message -----
From: <AAllan at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 3:01 PM
Subject: NADS 32.3


> This afternoon (Nov. 2) the "September" issue of the Newsletter of the
> American Dialect Society at last entered the mailstream. It goes first
class
> in the U.S. and by air elsewhere, so ADS members should get their copies
> within a few days.
>
> For the past week you've also been able to read it via PDF at the ADS
> website. Now you'll have a copy that can stay with you even if the lights
go
> out.
>
> The next issue is intended for January, shortly after our annual meeting;
and
> with the help of a capable new student assistant, I think I'll be able to
get
> back on schedule with that one. Meanwhile, thanks for your patience with
> this; and please send me your news, address corrections, etc. - Allan
Metcalf


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Fri Nov  3 16:10:04 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:10:04 EST
Subject: "O. K." sign
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.111004.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Douglaw Wilson wrote: "This is an interesting topic. Can someone
direct me to a Web-site giving a large list of gestures? Or to a
book?"

        Betty J. Bauml & Franz H. Bauml, Dictionary of Worldwide Gestures.
2nd ed., Lanham, Md & London, Scarecrow Pr., 1997.  This says (P.
141, under "Finger: Approval")  "Tip of thumb and index joined as
'A-OK' sign.  Obscene.  Greece; Turkey; Malta; N. Sardinia.  Morris
et al, p. 114.  Threatening, Tunisia.  Ibid, p. 115.  Rude.
Paraguay.  Axtell, Gestures, p. 213.  [Morris, et al. = Desmond
Morris, Gestures, Their Origins and Distribution, 1979.  Axtell has
been cited by someone already.]
        I don't think I see the actual "A-OK" gesture described here, though
it's hard to be sure.  They quote Quintillian and later writers
describing the gesture of thumb and forefinger joined at the tip, the
other fingers relaxed, as signifying approval.  I might describe this
as the natural hand position when tweaking one's moustache.  In the
A-OK gesture the outer fingers are extended and the palm presented to
the person addressed.  So the A-OK gesture is a dialectal variation
of an old gesture, folk-etymologized (by me, at least) as having
originated with the work "OK", the thumb and forefinger making the
"O" and the three outer fingers making the three strokes of the "K".
It seems to me that Quintillian's gesture is common in the US, but
less emphatic than the OK gesture.

        You all ought to read the chapers in Rabelais' Gargantua and
Pantagruel which are written in gestures:  Book II (Pantagruel), ch.
19, How Panurge overcame the Englishman who argued in gestures; and
Book III (Le Tiers Livre), How Goat-nose (Nazdecabre) answered
Panurge in gestures.  They are hilarious.  I assume some learned
Frenchman has written a study that explicates the gestures in these
chapters.

        The great folklorist Archer Taylor wrote a book called "The
Shanghai Gesture", on the history of the nose-thumbing gesture.
(Folklore Fellows Communication #166, 1956.)  (I take some quiet
pride in the thought that I am probably the only kid on my block to
have read both this and Charles Darwin's "Formation of Vegetable
Mould through the Action of Worms".)  As I recall, Taylor concludes
that the Shanghai Gesture is a parody of the military salute, and
originated in fairly recent times.  Indeed, my father, (US Army,
WWI) when in his cups, would frequently give a salute, exclaiming as
he did so "you mustn't turn your head", and turn his head to the
right while holding his hand still, which converted the salute into
the nose-thumbing gesture.

GAT


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Fri Nov  3 16:31:37 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:31:37 -0500
Subject: O. K. sign
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.113137.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the discussion on the American Dialect Society list about the US
popular-culture "OK" sign (thumb and forefinger making a circle, other
three fingers extended and spread),
Grant Barrett <gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM> writes:

>>>>>
When I was a kid, we used to do the OK sign, hand held down low close to the body,
the circle facing up, fingers splayed out. We'd hold it there until someone looked at
it, then we got to hit them. I dunno why.
<<<<<

Hmmm!

When I was a graduate student in Ling. at UC Berkeley (1973-80), working in
ASL, I learned of a similar joke among the Deaf* community thereabouts. A
Deaf person would make that handshape low down, close to the body; that's
at or outside the limits of normal signing space. If the Deaf person they
were with didn't see it in a few seconds and put their own index finger
through the hole, the first person would chop them on the arm.

* Small-d "deaf" is audiological; big-D "Deaf" is cultural.

I think I learned about this through a booklet I bought from a Deaf man I
knew slightly, a photographer named John Darcy Smith. It has no text, just
a series of photographs of people, one on each page. All the people
pictured were members of the local Deaf community. On (if I recall
correctly) each right-hand page one person shows another a card; the
"reader" of the booklet cannot see what is on the front of it. Overleaf on
the next left-hand page the second person reacts variously: laughter,
taking offense, frowning, bafflement, groaning as at a bad joke, etc. Then
on the facing right-hand page, the second person ("reacter") of the
previous dyad is showing the card to someone else, so the booklet as a
whole is a chain. And of course the reader's curiosity is building and
building: what IS this card that evokes such strong and diverse reactions?

On the next-to-last page, the last reacter is looking out of the page at
the reader, inviting the reader to look at the card. The last picture shows
the card in his hand, displayed to the camera's eye: a hand in the "OK"
handshape. And the Deaf reader finally gets it: Here's the joke handshape,
but how am I supposed to put my finger through the hole?

I am going to send this message to the Sign Languages Linguistics list as
well for further reaction.

   Mark A. Mandel : Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Senior Linguist
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov  3 16:53:34 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:53:34 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.115334.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's also in southern and southeastern Ohio, where I hear it mainly in mid-
and older people, so it's been around a long time in the South
Midland.  It's not the same as Valley Girl fronting, at least not that of
my southern Cal VG grad student, nor is it quite the same as in RP, but
it's close.  I forget who plays Ainsley; could she be doing a poor
imitation of NC and/or private school vowels?

At 07:10 AM 11/3/00 -0500, you wrote:
>I've heard that fronted /oU/ sound in several dialects. It's the sound
>used in standard British speech. In America, I've heard it in southern
>New Jersey, Philadelphia and Baltimore. I've also heard it in West
>Virginia, from a 30-year-old or so contestant on "Who Wants to Be a
>Millionaire." His parents, though, used the General American /oU/. DARE
>says that it's a Philadelphia/Baltimore/Pittsburgh/eastern North Carolina
>feature that has been spreading; maybe it has been spreading in West
>Virginia. Ainsley is supposed to be from North Carolina; she could be
>from the eastern part of the state. A friend of mine from Kansas City
>says she's never used the sound or heard it in Kansas City; I guess it's
>not heard in that part of Missouri.


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  3 20:12:57 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:12:57 EST
Subject: Zep (and hoagie!)
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.151257.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I'll try again.  Boy, do these Philly computers suck.
   From TAP & TAVERN, 25 January 1960, pg. 8, col. 4:

_Zep Sandwich Champ_
   HERE'S ANOTHER of the 20 Best Sandwiches of 1959, elected by the School of
Hotel Administration, Cornell University, in a contest sponsored in the food
service industry by Wheat Flour Institute and the National Restaurant
Association.
   ZEP SANDWICH ON BUN
   (makes 4 sandwiches)
4 Italian-style hearth baked buns*
4 thin slices Provolone cheese
8 thin slices salami
4 large tomato slices
Salad Oil
Crushed oregano
Dash salt
Crushed cherry peppers (optional)
   Split buns.  Place cheese on bottom half.  Add 2 slices salami, then onion
slice and tomato slice.  Sprinkle with (Col. 5--ed.) salad oil, oregano and
salt.  Add a teaspoon of crushed hot peppers, if desired.  Cover with bun
tops.
*Enriched hamburger buns may be substituted.

   From TAP & TAVERN, 29 August 1960, pg. 8, col. 1:

_Big Zep Sandwich_
_Brings Customers_
   ONE WAY TO STIMULATE business is to offer potential customers something
they find it hard to duplicate--either at home or any other place.  A case in
point is the license who introduced Zeps (or hoagies)--already popular in
many areas--in his neighborhood.
   He did it with a bang--featuring ten-inch Italian rolls, two kinds of
salami (three slices of cooked and three of hard salami), two slices of
Italian cheese, three slices of tomato (all generous portions), a large scoop
of shredded onions, and imported olive oil for a dressing.  Hot pepper is
optional.  The sandwich weighs more than ten ounces.
   A variation on the theme is a Zep featuring baked ham, or pork, selling
for slightly more.
   Not long after he started, the proprietor (WHO?--ed) was averaging more
than 100 Zeps a day, decidedly above average for the small community in which
he operates, and they have contributed greatly to his bar volume and profits.
   About 60 percent of his Zeps are for take-out, and this has increased his
sales of carry-home beer.  He frequently delivers the sandwiches to workers
in nearby plants and, as a result, builds up additional potential volume in
bar sales.
   Whether it's the Zep or something entirely different, introducing
something new in your area of operations is a sure key to profits.

(Check "hoagie" in DARE.  What does DARE have on Zep?  Isn't their motto "On
to Z"?--ed.)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov  3 20:30:35 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:30:35 EST
Subject: Fwd: jawn"
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.153035.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I thought someone on the ADS-L might know the answer to this.
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From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Fri Nov  3 20:33:33 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 15:33:33 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20001103115329.00c776e0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.153333.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The actor's name is Emily Proctor, and I've noticed the interesting accent
that she brings to the role.  It's as if she's stretching out those vowels
in the words she means to emphasize, which is not a bad reproduction of some
of the speech patterns of folks that live here in NC.  But it does have a
Valley Girl bent to it that seems a touch odd to these southern ears.

bob

> From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:53:34 -0500
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: fronted /oU/
>
> It's also in southern and southeastern Ohio, where I hear it mainly in mid-
> and older people, so it's been around a long time in the South
> Midland.  It's not the same as Valley Girl fronting, at least not that of
> my southern Cal VG grad student, nor is it quite the same as in RP, but
> it's close.  I forget who plays Ainsley; could she be doing a poor
> imitation of NC and/or private school vowels?


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Fri Nov  3 22:04:19 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:04:19 -0600
Subject: Zep (and hoagie!)
In-Reply-To: <c5.ab3e54f.2734764e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.160419.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE has an Informant from Pottstown, PA who responded that she uses
"hoagie," but that "zep" can be seen on signs.


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Fri Nov  3 22:21:26 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 16:21:26 -0600
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.162126.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

Beverly's observation that fronting has been around a long time in her South
Midland area is interesting, because around where I live, which has a
somewhat similar English-speaking settlement history (albeit one that starts
about a generation later than in SE Ohio, c. 1830 vs. 1800 + or -)
/oU/ fronting, while common among rural speakers, seems to have begun only
in those born after WWII.  (BTW, these communities are located in W. ILL
about 100 mi. due N of ST. Louis, about halfway between Peoria and
Burlington, IA.)
Case I:  Women from one family in LaHarpe, IL: (Name, DOB, %ow fronting on
tape)
Olive 1898 0
Anne 1908  0
Maryanne 1933 0
Diane        1951 56%  (n/n=5/9)
Kate          1956  56%  5/9
Interviewed 1978-80

Case 2: Women from one family, Industry, IL
Nancy 1900 17% (2/12)
Donne  1935   0% (0/7)
Melinda 1961  75% (6/8)

Case 3:  Students at Industry High School, interviewed 1993
Brandy, 1978, 13%
Colleen, 1979, 67%
Cassie,   1980, 33%
Kelly       1980 66%
Carrie     1981  16%   (These students were all reading a set passage while
their English teacher watched.  The families above (case 1 and 2) were free
conversations recorded by a family member)

Attached are ow fronting scores recorded by HS and college students around
LaHarpe IL in the mid 90s.  These were taped by students in my linguistics
classes, usually peers.

Tim

----- Original Message -----
From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: fronted /oU/


> It's also in southern and southeastern Ohio, where I hear it mainly in
mid-
> and older people, so it's been around a long time in the South
> Midland.  It's not the same as Valley Girl fronting, at least not that of
> my southern Cal VG grad student, nor is it quite the same as in RP, but
> it's close.  I forget who plays Ainsley; could she be doing a poor
> imitation of NC and/or private school vowels?
>
> At 07:10 AM 11/3/00 -0500, you wrote:
> >I've heard that fronted /oU/ sound in several dialects. It's the sound
> >used in standard British speech. In America, I've heard it in southern
> >New Jersey, Philadelphia and Baltimore. I've also heard it in West
> >Virginia, from a 30-year-old or so contestant on "Who Wants to Be a
> >Millionaire." His parents, though, used the General American /oU/. DARE
> >says that it's a Philadelphia/Baltimore/Pittsburgh/eastern North Carolina
> >feature that has been spreading; maybe it has been spreading in West
> >Virginia. Ainsley is supposed to be from North Carolina; she could be
> >from the eastern part of the state. A friend of mine from Kansas City
> >says she's never used the sound or heard it in Kansas City; I guess it's
> >not heard in that part of Missouri.
>
>
> _____________________________________________
> Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
> Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
> Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
> http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm
>
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov  4 03:02:52 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:02:52 EST
Subject: Cappuccino (and Mulligan)
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.220252.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Patrick Murphy moved to San Francisco in 1949, and he wrote about
"Cappuccino."  It's similar stuff to what I had posted here before.
    "Mulligan" is listed in the same column and is thrown in for OED "M"
people.

28 March 1949, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by Patrick Murphy," pg. 15,
col. 1:

    An unusual libation but one which you may hear about now and then, and
that you'll certainly hear "on cal." in a strictly provincial Italian
neighborhood in any large U.S.A. city, is Cappuccino.  It is pronounced
'cah-poo-cheen' oe' and is spelled variously, which means that we aren't
certain our spelling of it is correct.
   Places which feature Cappuccino can serve the drink thanks to a specially
installed steam generating device which sits on the backbar and resembles in
all respect the regular old-fashioned coffee urn.  It's a gadget which is a
necessary part of the true drink, hence one reason you'll seldom find the
drink mentioned outside of a specialized bistro.
   To make the mixture, the bartender takes about a level teaspoon of ground
chocolate, mixes this with a little milk to form a chocolate paste, and does
the mixing right in the glass in which it is to be served.  This is very
often a stem goblet of 5-6 ounce capacity, resembling a hot toddy glass.
Once the chocolate is mixed, the drink is put under the spigot of the urn we
mentioned, and a specially designed (we think) flow of steam is introduced,
making a hot drink that at the same time thoroughly mixes with the milk and
the chocolate.  Finally, a shot of brandy is added, and the drink is placed
before the patron with a sugar bowl on the side, in the event he wants to
sweeten it up.
   We list it "for the record."  You'll probably not get a call for it, but
in the event you do, that's the pitch.
   (...)
_MULLIGAN_
   To that Penna. reader who asked about "mulligan"--we're still working on
sources for a really authoritative answer, recipe and all.  West Coast
bartenders, by the way, know nothing about the mixture, as contrasted to
Eastern barmen, who work with draft beer.

18 April 1949, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by Patrick Murphy," pg. 8,
col. 1:

_CAPPUCCINO_
   A few weeks ago this column mentioned Cappuccino--a new drink to us and
one which we first came upon in the sizeable Italian colony of San Francisco.
 The drink, as we told you, is made by mixing chocolate powder with milk, by
placing this under a device which resembles a large coffee urn, and by
injecting live steam into the drink via said device.  The shot of brandy (or
rum or whiskey) is then added.
   We have continued our researches into the matter and this week met up with
the actual inventor of Cappuccino, who gave us the full and complete story.
He is Fred Landi, proprietor of La Tosca, a quality restaurant located on San
Francisco's Bohemian Columbus Ave.  The La Tosca boasts, in the way or
murals, two scenes from the opera "La Tosca," and between these huge pictures
is a portrait of the composer himself, Giacomo Puccini (b. 1858, d. 1924).
On an opposite wall hang photo murals of the Colisseum at Rome, the Appian
Way and other landmarks of that great city.  Underneath this is a backbar
sign which announces that this is the original home of Cappuccino, that it is
copyrighted (The other article said "patented"--ed.), and that copyright
protection is assured the owner.  This last was big news to us, for until
that moment we had assumed that the word was a general term, like "cocktail,"
or "highball" or "julep."  Not so, Mr. Landi assured us.
  . . .
_PROCEDURE_
   It seems that back in 1937 Mr. Landi ordered from Italy an Italian coffee
urn which produces "Cafe Expresso."  In this type of drink the grounds are
put right into the urn for each serving, the steam then goes through them and
more or less instanter a piping cup of jet black coffee is served, there
having been no escape whatsoever of flavor.  Cafe Expresso is variously
spelled (one club in San Francisco merely calls it "Express Coffee," and then
adds "Royal" for the shot that usually goes into the potation), and is a
nationally known Italian drink.
   Mr. Landi figured that, so long as the Cafe Expresso machine was on the
premises, he would popularize a chocolate drink, too.  Casting about for a
suitable name, it occurred to him that Benedictine, with its monastic
trademark, was a novel enough approach to capture public attention.  He also
noted that the gowns of Capuchin monks were chocolate colored in their hooded
austerity.  Hence, he reasoned, why not call the hot chocolate drink
"Cappuccino," after the hooded monks of the Franciscan order, particularly
(Col. 2--ed.) after the color of their robes.
   The name once established, Mr. Landi had it copyrighted.  (I checked
patents, but not copyrights.  I'll go to DC to check it out--ed.)  It has
since "caught on" very much here in San Francisco, so much so that we for one
were led to believe it was a general term for a drink, not suspecting that it
was a copyrighted private label.  Similar names in the trade which are
privately owned, and which are often mistaken for general titles, include the
Bacardi Cocktail, and the Sazerac Cocktail and Pisco Punch, to name but
three.  Cappuccino is a member of this privately owned classification, and we
are pleased to be able to set the facts straight for the mixologists in the
audience.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Nov  4 03:20:06 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 22:20:06 -0500
Subject: Fwd: jawn"
In-Reply-To: <38.d61db11.27347a6b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.222006.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... I ran across the word 'jawn', which
>according to government witnesses could mean 'thing' or just about any
>other noun.  Does anyone have any information about this word.  Is there
>any possibility it comes from Jamaican creole?

Probably someone else can do better; I'm only very faintly familiar with
this word myself, and I don't find it in my conventional reference books.

I'm pretty sure this is originally a variant of "John".

A quick Web search gives the following.

(1) Simply a variant spelling of "John": used as a 'cute' 'handle'/nickname
by persons presumably named John, and apparently also when denoting a
pronunciation or dialect (i.e., in reproducing the speech of someone who
says /dZOn/ as opposed to /dZan/, I think).

(2) [Nonspecific noun], = 'thing', = 'item': not necessarily a tangible
object (apparently stands in for 'discussion topic', 'musical passage',
'picture', etc.).    [From 'john' = 'joe'/'average/unspecified/anonymous man'?]

(3) [Nonspecific noun], = 'material', = 'stuff', = 'shit' (in the general
sense of 'stuff').    [Uncountable version of (2)]

(4) Marijuana cigarette: = 'joint'.    [In this sense, I presume 'jawn' =
'john' < 'J.' < 'joint'. {I think card-players' 'john' < 'J' < 'jack' is
comparable}]

(5) [predicate, with "the"] [Something] fine, superlative, pleasurable,
etc.: "it's the jawn" = "it's the cat's meow/pajamas/ass", "it's the
greatest".    [Possibly from (2), like "it's (just) the thing"? Or from
(4), a parallel with 'dope' = 'cool'/'rad'?]

Web references:

http://wiretap.area.com/Gopher/Library/Misc/slang.txt

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/features/nomsayin.htm

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/6449/dictionary_j.htm

[Another word with the same spelling: "jawn" = variant of "yawn".]

-- Doug Wilson


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Nov  4 04:04:40 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 20:04:40 -0800
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.200440.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

tim frazer reports fronted /oU/ turning up in the south midlands only
in post-ww2 generations.  this is my experience, though i would have
said even later than that.  when melanie lusk and i taught a
dialectology course at ohio state in 1980, one of our students did a
pilot study on a few vowel variables in ohio, O among them.  she found
a sharp distinction between her younger northern ohio (cleveland,
toledo, akron/canton) urban speakers (who had fronted variants)
and everybody else (who didn't).  twenty years ago, we weren't hearing
the fronted variants in the ohio part of the south midlands, even
from people born around 1960.

fronted variants for the young urban northern midlands speakers were
*very* high-frequency, especially in accented words.

(my own variety includes some fronted variants in accented words, at
least for a few lexical items, in particular NOSE and ROSE.  this
is presumably a spread west and into the suburban/rural areas of
eastern pennsylvania from philadelphia - in the 1940s and '50s.)

i'm away from my library right now, but i believe that the berkeley
survey (a decade or so back) of younger california speakers showed
very high frequencies of fronted variants (categorical for some
speakers) in its subjects, especially female ones.

i'm sort of dubious about an RP origin for the u.s. fronting(s).  it
could just be that the fronting is a phonetically natural fortition,
or strengthening (which would predict its predilection for appearing
in already strong, in particular accented, positions).  it's something
that could have appeared independently in several locations - in
southern england, in the middle atlantic region of the u.s., in the
southeast u.s., and in california.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov  4 04:50:21 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 23:50:21 EST
Subject: TAP & TAVERN tidbits
Message-ID: <FRI.3.NOV.2000.235021.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I checked TAP & TAVERN for 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, and then 1959, 1960,
1961, and 1962.  Patrick Murphy wrote "The Barman's Corner" column (and I was
anxious to see the rest of it, since BUCKEYE TAVERN holdings end in 1948) for
1948-1951.
   For the second runs of years that I looked at (1959-1962), "The Barman's
Corner" column was written by James E. Hickey (editor of the BUCKEYE TAVERN).

HAPPY HOUR--I didn't see the "Happy Hour" from 1959-1962.  The TAP & TAVERN,
25 April 1960, pg. 20, col. 5, headline is: "'101 Ideas' Made Available For
Tavern Month."  I'll have to check out the NLBA NEWS by the National Licensed
Beverage Association.  "Happy Hour" is probably in their house organ.

20 September 1948, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by Patrick Murphy," pg.
13, col. 4:
   What is called a "chaser" or a "rinse" or a "mix" in many parts of the
country is called a "back" in at least some bars of Colorado.  For instance,
a "rye and water back" or a "rum and a sweet soda back" is, in the first
instance, a drink of rye, with a glass of plain water (and a cube of ice) on
the side.  In the second instance, it's a drink of light rum with the sweet
soda which we have found to be much more popular here than in Ohio,
Pennsylvania and New York.  It's a slang term, this "back," and we aren't too
sure it's used border to border, but at least it is something new and
different for your notebook.
   A "money-coke," when called in at some bars, referes to a coke which is
being sold on its own--not a coke to be used as a mixer or as a rinse.
Again, this may be merely a localized expression, but it does have some
currency here.
_"KANSAS HIGHBALLS"_
   There are some "Kansas highballs" to be heard of.  They take the form of a
plain water drink, mixed with a shot of bourbon, gin, or scotch, as the case
may be.  A true Kansas highball would seem to be a duplicate of the Croton
highball which was on call in pre-Prohibition days in New York City.

22 November 1948, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by Patrick Murphy," pg.
9, col. 2--All across Nevada, in the far-spaced towns, that is, signs reading
"Gaming" are posted prominently on the exterior of practicially all bars.
The word should read "gambling," but there's a more subtle sound to "gaming"
and it is unanimous.  The word is probably prescribed by Nevada licensing
statute.

17 January 1949, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by Patrick Murphy," pg.
7, col. 3--"In the year 1918 he returned to Havana and got a job as bartender
at a cafe named 'Greasy Spoon.'"  (Story of Jose Abeal, or "Sloppy Joe."
That place promoted the Mary Pickford Cocktail, among others--ed.)

5 December 1949, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by Patrick Murphy," pg.
17, col. 3--And restaurant-wise, we found one, once upon a time, plastered on
the wall along with "Mary had a little lamb, what'll you have?" and other
oldies, which we always will treasure as a kind of bonded wry: "IF YOU'RE SO
SMART--WHY AIN'T YOU RICH?"

8 January 1960, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by James E. Hickey," pg.
9, col. 1--(1-8 suggested etymologies of "cocktail.")

22 February 1960, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by James E. Hickey," pg.
5, col. 1--(9-18 suggested etymologies of "cocktail.")

13 June 1960, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by James Hickey," pg. 4,
col. 1--RECIPE: Now firmly established in the Southwest is the Margarita
Cocktail, often Americanized to Margaret Cocktail.  No doubt it will
eventually go coast to coast.  Here's how.  (Recipe follows, but no
etymology--ed.)

20 June 1960, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by James Hickey," pg. 4,
col. 3--A fountain filled with Gimlets, yours for the dipping, featured a
recent "come with toga" Roman party on the same W. Coast recently.  (Toga
Party!  Toga!  Toga!--ed.)

11 July 1960, TAP & TAVERN, pg. 8, col. 1:
(...)
_Famed Restaurant_
_Launched "Pink Lady"_
   SERVICE to the customers is vital--and it takes many forms.
   At the famed Miller Brothers Restaurant, 119 West Fayette st., in
Baltimore...
   (Col. 3--ed.)
   Among Mrs. Miller's vivid recollections is an account of the appearance in
Baltimore of a stock company playing something entitled "The Pink Lady."  It
was in honor of that show of by-gone days that the bartender at Miller
Brothers Restaurant invented a drink given the same name which has long since
become a standard drink in every bartender's lexicon from coast-to-coast.

10 October 1960, TAP & TAVERN, pg. 5, col. 2:
_"Tell You What I'm Gonna Do--"_
_Sid Stone to Announce_
_Commercials for Ortlieb_
   (...)  Sid Stone will be remembered by the TV audience for his familiar
opening, "Tell you what I'm gonna do for you."  Stone was with Milton Berle
on the Texaco Show four consecutive years.

14 November 1960, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by James E. Hickey," pg.
9, col. 5--Dr. Bauer of the A.M.A. who conducts a syndicated newspaper
column, has this month warned teen-agers against "glue-sniffing" for kicks.
Seems the teen-agers buy plastic cement, park themselves in a car and sniff a
handkerchief impregnated with this substance.  Effects can send the
experimenter to mental hospital if habit gets chronic.  (OED 1963
"glue-sniffing"--ed.)

24 April 1961, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by James E. Hickey," pg.
16, col. 3--THE BLOODY MARY seems here to stay.  (...)  By the way, a
_Sangrita_ is simply a "Bloody Mary," substituting tequila for vodka.
"Tequila Sangrita" is the full name of the drink, and this translates into
English as "Bloody Tequila," the which is your recipe clue.  (No Bloody Mary
etymology is given--ed.)

3 July 1961, TAP & TAVERN, "The Barman's Corner by James E. Hickey," pg. 9,
col. 2--BLOODY MARIA is a Bloody Mary but with a light rum substituted for
vodka, say the Ronrico people, who are plugging this new twist with ads in
Life.  Punch line is like so: "Anything Bloody Mary can do, Maria can do
better."  Like vodka, this leaves me breathless.


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Sat Nov  4 10:17:29 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 02:17:29 -0800
Subject: "mixed ale"?
In-Reply-To: <002601c045c3$a1bcfb30$01dea8c0@localnet.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.021729.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I forwarded the question to a friend who I thought might know
something.  (For one thing, he's done a great deal of research into
old English drinking songs)  Here was his reply.

>I have not the clue of a Dutchman.  Possibly it refers to ale fortified with
>strong spirits, like gin.   Or, another possibility, an ale made up of the
>lees left by the beer engines as they exhausted the cellared kegs, poured
>off into a common butt as the kegs were switched.
>
>Just educated guesses however.   Feel free to pass them along at their face
>(nil) value....


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Nov  4 17:28:53 2000
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 09:28:53 -0800
Subject: NADS 32.3
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.092853.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi Allan,
I have a new e-mail address:
margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu

Thanks,
Margaret Lee


--- AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:
> This afternoon (Nov. 2) the "September" issue of the
> Newsletter of the
> American Dialect Society at last entered the
> mailstream. It goes first class
> in the U.S. and by air elsewhere, so ADS members
> should get their copies
> within a few days.
>
> For the past week you've also been able to read it
> via PDF at the ADS
> website. Now you'll have a copy that can stay with
> you even if the lights go
> out.
>
> The next issue is intended for January, shortly
> after our annual meeting; and
> with the help of a capable new student assistant, I
> think I'll be able to get
> back on schedule with that one. Meanwhile, thanks
> for your patience with
> this; and please send me your news, address
> corrections, etc. - Allan Metcalf


=====
Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Associate Professor - English and Linguistics
& University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
757-727-5769 (voice); 757-727-5421 (fax); 757-851-5773(home)
e-mail:  mlee303 at yahoo.com   or   margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov  4 17:59:40 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 12:59:40 EST
Subject: Smeargate; Lifestyle Dining; Safire Watch
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.125940.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SMEARGATE

   Saturday's NEW YORK POST calls the recent Bush DUI conviction (24 years
ago, coming out just now) as "SMEARGATE."
   "November Surprise" and "Pearl Harbor Politics" have also been used.

--------------------------------------------------------
LIFESTYLE DINING

   From the NEW YORK OBSERVER, 6 November 2000, pg. 24, col. 3:

_Is Starck Raving Mad?_
_Introducing "Lifestyle Dining"_
(...)  According to the press release, Hudson Cafeteria represents "the next
generation of Lifestyle Dining."  The rooms' centerpiece is an open kitchen
surrounded by a dining counter over which hang stained-glass pictures of the
backs of people's heads emerging from flames.  It's just the place for a
Black Mass.  I'm not exactly sure what "Lifestyle Dining" means, though one
suspects  it has something to do with the fact that Philippe Starck designed
the space.  I imagine the concept includes loud music so that conversation
has to be conducted by shouting.  It also means that the cuisine (much of it
similar to that of Mr. Ducasse's Spoon, slated to replace "44" in the
Royalton) is eclectic, international and tongue-in-cheek, from turkey meat
loaf to chop suey and cassoulet.

--------------------------------------------------------
WILLIAM SAFIRE WATCH (continuing feature)

   Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES, again, does not publish my letter to the editor.
   My corrections (that I sent a week ago) have not even been acknowledged.


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Sat Nov  4 18:45:25 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 12:45:25 -0600
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.124525.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

Labov's diagram in Eckert "New Ways. . . ." (1991:23) reports fronting
ofboth /uw/ and /ow/ as characteristic of the southern vowel shift, as does
Tim Habick in the same volume.

----- Original Message -----
From: Arnold Zwicky <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: fronted /oU/


> tim frazer reports fronted /oU/ turning up in the south midlands only
> in post-ww2 generations.  this is my experience, though i would have
> said even later than that.  when melanie lusk and i taught a
> dialectology course at ohio state in 1980, one of our students did a
> pilot study on a few vowel variables in ohio, O among them.  she found
> a sharp distinction between her younger northern ohio (cleveland,
> toledo, akron/canton) urban speakers (who had fronted variants)
> and everybody else (who didn't).  twenty years ago, we weren't hearing
> the fronted variants in the ohio part of the south midlands, even
> from people born around 1960.
>
> fronted variants for the young urban northern midlands speakers were
> *very* high-frequency, especially in accented words.
>
> (my own variety includes some fronted variants in accented words, at
> least for a few lexical items, in particular NOSE and ROSE.  this
> is presumably a spread west and into the suburban/rural areas of
> eastern pennsylvania from philadelphia - in the 1940s and '50s.)
>
> i'm away from my library right now, but i believe that the berkeley
> survey (a decade or so back) of younger california speakers showed
> very high frequencies of fronted variants (categorical for some
> speakers) in its subjects, especially female ones.
>
> i'm sort of dubious about an RP origin for the u.s. fronting(s).  it
> could just be that the fronting is a phonetically natural fortition,
> or strengthening (which would predict its predilection for appearing
> in already strong, in particular accented, positions).  it's something
> that could have appeared independently in several locations - in
> southern england, in the middle atlantic region of the u.s., in the
> southeast u.s., and in california.
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sat Nov  4 21:04:45 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:04:45 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
In-Reply-To: <003101c0468f$bc9198e0$0d060640@wiu.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.160445.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, and as I've said earlier and elsewhere, southern/southeastern Ohio
represents both the upward extension of the Southern Shift and the westward
spread of the West Penn/Pittsburgh vowels (see Hankey 1972, in the Raven
McDavid festschrift).  Someone cited West Virginia's vowel fronting also;
our eastern end of Ohio shares a lot of features with WV.  When I mentioned
"older people" though, I was citing from my 20-year perspective in
Ohio.  The very first sound that struck my ear when I came for my interview
at OU in 1980 was the fronting of /ow/--not in OU gownies, of course, but
in many then middle-aged townies (my landlady that year was 40-ish, which
would date her from the 1940s or a bit earlier).  I would guess that it has
spread through southern Indiana and Illinois in the period Tim mentions.

I agree with Arnold that RP is not the source but would also remind him of
the great differences between northern, central, and southern Ohio (as I'm
sure he knows).  Erik Thomas found the fronting in younger people in the
Columbus area, but his sites aren't really in southeastern Ohio, where the
feature has been around longer.  Most of our undergrads at OU are in fact
from northern and central Ohio, and they regularly notice, and mock, the
local speech of Athens County and environs--this is truly hillbilly and
"southern" country to them.

At 12:45 PM 11/4/00 -0600, you wrote:
>Labov's diagram in Eckert "New Ways. . . ." (1991:23) reports fronting
>ofboth /uw/ and /ow/ as characteristic of the southern vowel shift, as does
>Tim Habick in the same volume.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Arnold Zwicky <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Friday, November 03, 2000 10:04 PM
>Subject: Re: fronted /oU/
>
>
> > tim frazer reports fronted /oU/ turning up in the south midlands only
> > in post-ww2 generations.  this is my experience, though i would have
> > said even later than that.  when melanie lusk and i taught a
> > dialectology course at ohio state in 1980, one of our students did a
> > pilot study on a few vowel variables in ohio, O among them.  she found
> > a sharp distinction between her younger northern ohio (cleveland,
> > toledo, akron/canton) urban speakers (who had fronted variants)
> > and everybody else (who didn't).  twenty years ago, we weren't hearing
> > the fronted variants in the ohio part of the south midlands, even
> > from people born around 1960.
> >
> > fronted variants for the young urban northern midlands speakers were
> > *very* high-frequency, especially in accented words.
> >
> > (my own variety includes some fronted variants in accented words, at
> > least for a few lexical items, in particular NOSE and ROSE.  this
> > is presumably a spread west and into the suburban/rural areas of
> > eastern pennsylvania from philadelphia - in the 1940s and '50s.)
> >
> > i'm away from my library right now, but i believe that the berkeley
> > survey (a decade or so back) of younger california speakers showed
> > very high frequencies of fronted variants (categorical for some
> > speakers) in its subjects, especially female ones.
> >
> > i'm sort of dubious about an RP origin for the u.s. fronting(s).  it
> > could just be that the fronting is a phonetically natural fortition,
> > or strengthening (which would predict its predilection for appearing
> > in already strong, in particular accented, positions).  it's something
> > that could have appeared independently in several locations - in
> > southern england, in the middle atlantic region of the u.s., in the
> > southeast u.s., and in california.
> >
> > arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From faber at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sat Nov  4 21:18:39 2000
From: faber at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:18:39 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20001104154523.00cb5e70@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.161839.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beverly Flanigan said:
>Yes, and as I've said earlier and elsewhere, southern/southeastern Ohio
>represents both the upward extension of the Southern Shift and the westward
>spread of the West Penn/Pittsburgh vowels (see Hankey 1972, in the Raven
>McDavid festschrift).  Someone cited West Virginia's vowel fronting also;
>our eastern end of Ohio shares a lot of features with WV.  When I mentioned
>"older people" though, I was citing from my 20-year perspective in
>Ohio.  The very first sound that struck my ear when I came for my interview
>at OU in 1980 was the fronting of /ow/--not in OU gownies, of course, but
>in many then middle-aged townies (my landlady that year was 40-ish, which
>would date her from the 1940s or a bit earlier).  I would guess that it has
>spread through southern Indiana and Illinois in the period Tim mentions.

Yup...we had a speaker at the lab a few weeks ago whose phonology was so
interesting that I almost stopped paying attention to the content of her
talk. She had extremely northern (but not Northern Cities) tense /ae/,
along with nearly monophthongal /aI/ (as well as some other more southern
features). It turned out she's from Cincinnati (I asked), and she
volunteered that she grew up with double modals as well. I didn't notice
/uw/ and /ow/ fronting particularly, but that might be because it's pretty
common to hear fronted vowels, especially /ow/, here in Connecticut. I have
formant plots from CT college students for which /ow/ is roughly [EU]; I
don't know if that's the sort of variant that started this thread, though.
--
Alice Faber                                       tel. (203) 865-6163
Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
270 Crown St                                   faber at haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511                               afaber at wesleyan.edu


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sat Nov  4 21:56:35 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:56:35 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
In-Reply-To: <a04330103b62a2c8d3daf@[208.58.249.43]>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.165635.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:18 PM 11/4/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Beverly Flanigan said:
> >Yes, and as I've said earlier and elsewhere, southern/southeastern Ohio
> >represents both the upward extension of the Southern Shift and the westward
> >spread of the West Penn/Pittsburgh vowels (see Hankey 1972, in the Raven
> >McDavid festschrift).  Someone cited West Virginia's vowel fronting also;
> >our eastern end of Ohio shares a lot of features with WV.  When I mentioned
> >"older people" though, I was citing from my 20-year perspective in
> >Ohio.  The very first sound that struck my ear when I came for my interview
> >at OU in 1980 was the fronting of /ow/--not in OU gownies, of course, but
> >in many then middle-aged townies (my landlady that year was 40-ish, which
> >would date her from the 1940s or a bit earlier).  I would guess that it has
> >spread through southern Indiana and Illinois in the period Tim mentions.
>
>Yup...we had a speaker at the lab a few weeks ago whose phonology was so
>interesting that I almost stopped paying attention to the content of her
>talk. She had extremely northern (but not Northern Cities) tense /ae/,
>along with nearly monophthongal /aI/ (as well as some other more southern
>features). It turned out she's from Cincinnati (I asked), and she
>volunteered that she grew up with double modals as well. I didn't notice
>/uw/ and /ow/ fronting particularly, but that might be because it's pretty
>common to hear fronted vowels, especially /ow/, here in Connecticut. I have
>formant plots from CT college students for which /ow/ is roughly [EU]; I
>don't know if that's the sort of variant that started this thread, though.
>--
>Alice Faber                                       tel. (203) 865-6163
>Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
>270 Crown St                                   faber at haskins.yale.edu
>New Haven, CT 06511                               afaber at wesleyan.edu

The Cincinnati citation is particularly interesting, since some researchers
have suggested that Cinci is an "island" that doesn't share South Midland
or Southern features (just as some say Pittsburgh is "unique," when my
regional informants know it isn't).  As a large city, it of course receives
many inputs, but a large substratum consists of South Midland speakers,
including both earlier generations and new in-migrants from further
South.  My students tell me there are many neighborhoods that are
identifiably Appalachian or Southern, and they are not surprised at all
when I group it with South, not North, Midland (pace Carver); the
(traditional) Cincinnati area is not like the (traditional) Columbus area.
If anyone remembers the Cincinnati woman in "American Tongues," you'll note
both her vowel fronting and her (slight) monophthongizing.  Yes, the /EU/
sound is what we're talking about.  And by the way, I heard my first clear
double modal from an Athenian just the other day--"might could"!

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Sat Nov  4 22:08:04 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 16:08:04 -0600
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.160804.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

All these examples of /ow/ fronting raise some interesting questions.
1.  Is it a  pandialectal movement?  It's in the southern shift, which is
usually account for as a chain shift in which various vowels diplace each
other, and Labov seems to include "southern England, New Zealand, South
Africa, the Middle Atlantic States, the Southern Mountain States, and both
the Upper and Lower South" in this shift.  But how does this account for
/ow/ fronting among California women, or, as Alice just mentioned, in CT (it
really blows my mind to hear it is there.  I had no idea).

2.  In some places it is socially motivated.  In Farmer City, IL, Tim Habick
reports /ow/ fronting as well as other features of the SS among the
"burnouts" in farmer City High School -- the outgroup, the dopers.  But this
would not account for its presence in SE OH. Or, I presume, CT, although
Alice didn't mention social characteristics.  (Any breakdowns of your
sample, Alice?)

3.  These feature has apparently been in W Pa, se OH, se PA (but not central
PA), n WV, and scattered around NJ and in NYC for a long time -- see Kurath
and McDavid's map 21 (Pronunciation of Eng in the Atl states, 1961, U of Ala
P).  The LAMSAS informants were mostly born in the nineteenth century,
sometimes before the Civil War, so Beveryly's landlady's pronunciation
probably represented 3rd generation use.  But if people came to my part of
Illinois from the same places as to SE OH, albeit 30 years later, why does
/ow/ fronting not show up earlier in Illinois?

4.  is this an Ulster Scots features?
----- Original Message -----
From: Alice Faber <faber at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: fronted /oU/


> Beverly Flanigan said:
> >Yes, and as I've said earlier and elsewhere, southern/southeastern Ohio
> >represents both the upward extension of the Southern Shift and the
westward
> >spread of the West Penn/Pittsburgh vowels (see Hankey 1972, in the Raven
> >McDavid festschrift).  Someone cited West Virginia's vowel fronting also;
> >our eastern end of Ohio shares a lot of features with WV.  When I
mentioned
> >"older people" though, I was citing from my 20-year perspective in
> >Ohio.  The very first sound that struck my ear when I came for my
interview
> >at OU in 1980 was the fronting of /ow/--not in OU gownies, of course, but
> >in many then middle-aged townies (my landlady that year was 40-ish, which
> >would date her from the 1940s or a bit earlier).  I would guess that it
has
> >spread through southern Indiana and Illinois in the period Tim mentions.
>
> Yup...we had a speaker at the lab a few weeks ago whose phonology was so
> interesting that I almost stopped paying attention to the content of her
> talk. She had extremely northern (but not Northern Cities) tense /ae/,
> along with nearly monophthongal /aI/ (as well as some other more southern
> features). It turned out she's from Cincinnati (I asked), and she
> volunteered that she grew up with double modals as well. I didn't notice
> /uw/ and /ow/ fronting particularly, but that might be because it's pretty
> common to hear fronted vowels, especially /ow/, here in Connecticut. I
have
> formant plots from CT college students for which /ow/ is roughly [EU]; I
> don't know if that's the sort of variant that started this thread, though.
> --
> Alice Faber                                       tel. (203) 865-6163
> Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
> 270 Crown St                                   faber at haskins.yale.edu
> New Haven, CT 06511                               afaber at wesleyan.edu


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Nov  4 22:29:53 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 14:29:53 -0800
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.142953.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

one of the miracles of this list is that every so often some
simple question about a matter that we probably thought to be
reasonably well understood sets off a discussion that unearths
all sorts of fresh issues.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From faber at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sat Nov  4 22:43:53 2000
From: faber at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 17:43:53 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.174353.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Tim Frazer said:

>All these examples of /ow/ fronting raise some interesting questions.
>1.  Is it a  pandialectal movement?  It's in the southern shift, which is
>usually account for as a chain shift in which various vowels diplace each
>other, and Labov seems to include "southern England, New Zealand, South
>Africa, the Middle Atlantic States, the Southern Mountain States, and both
>the Upper and Lower South" in this shift.  But how does this account for
>/ow/ fronting among California women, or, as Alice just mentioned, in CT (it
>really blows my mind to hear it is there.  I had no idea).

I'll have to check files in the lab to see which group of CT/NY area
speakers I've seen this in, since we've done several studies that are at
various stages of preparation. In no case was /ow/ fronting the focus;
mostly, we were just mapping out people's vowel spaces to provide context
for other phenomena.

What's definitely different from other frontings that I know of in the US
(Southern Shift, and the possibly related Utah stuff that Marianna Di Paolo
and I have looked at) is the relationship with /uw/. The canonical Southern
Shift has the fronting of /uw/ leading the fronting of /ow/; in the CT/NY
stuff that I have, there might be a wee bit of fronting of /uw/, but it's
not unusual for /ow/ to have more formant movement than any other vowel.

Because of the nature of these studies (monosyllables, with fixed
consonantal context), I can't say anything about context effects. Unlike
the fronting of /uw/ in this neck of the woods, the fronting of /ow/ isn't
facilitated in any way by a preceding dental consonant. If I had to guess,
I'd say the following consonant (if any) doesn't play a role, making this
different from the old New England checked-o in ROAD and COAT, which PEAS
(the only relevant book I have at home) says was quite limited, even back
then.
--
Alice Faber                                       tel. (203) 865-6163
Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
270 Crown St                                   faber at haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511                               afaber at wesleyan.edu


From lmedu at JPS.NET  Sat Nov  4 22:52:00 2000
From: lmedu at JPS.NET (Sharon Vaipae)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 15:52:00 -0700
Subject: one-eye pull (in Japan)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.155200.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>> And what about the finger pulling down the lower
>> eyelid?
>
>Mon oeil ... my eye ... same meaning of doubt or
>skepticism as in English.

During our eight years in Tochigi-ken, Niigata-ken, and Osaka-ku Japan, my
elementary/middle school school-age children both received from and gave it
to
Japanese school peers, meaning variously, "I don't care," "Who cares, so
what," and "Baka" (you are stupid), and sometimes as a joking greeting
between friends.  They did not know it before arriving in Japan at the ages
of three and five. My university students also used it occasionally with
each other, but always laughed as though it was intended humorously.

The closed rounded forefinger/thumb with remaining fingers slightly
elevated and curled signals "money" in Japan, although my students were
also familiar with its "O.K." U.S. meaning, as well as South American
meaning as a substitute for the middle finger. The last learned during in
the past ten years with the large influx of second and third-generation
Japanese from Brazil, Peru, Columbia, etc. to fulfill
kkk labor needs.

And while I'm here:
>At 10:35 PM 11/2/2000 -0500, "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> >wrote:
>probably you'll even see "He's so Staten Island" somewhere ....

I overheard one of my daughter's softball teammates huffily comment after
being thrown out at first base:  "I was SO there."

"Ghetto" is used by non-ghetto teens at my school as a descriptor of anything
that they look down upon or of which they disapprove, as in "her hair was
so ghetto," or "I would never go to the Mall looking so ghetto." Here "so" and
"ghetto" are frequently played together.

Warm regards, and always thoroughly correctable,

Sharon Vaipae
LMedu at jps.net
DR High School
Tracy, CA

Sharon Vaipae           "The truth shall make you odd."
LMedu at jps.net                          - Flannery O'Connor
Tracy, CA


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Sun Nov  5 00:00:53 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 18:00:53 -0600
Subject: so-ghetto
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.180053.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

Are the students Sharon mentions using "so ghetto" as kind of a negative
adj. African American or otherwise?
If not, I wonder if this is some more slang that started in AAVE and spread
to white middle class adolescents?


----- Original Message -----
From: Sharon Vaipae <lmedu at JPS.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2000 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: one-eye pull (in Japan)


> >> And what about the finger pulling down the lower
> >> eyelid?
> >
> >Mon oeil ... my eye ... same meaning of doubt or
> >skepticism as in English.
>
> During our eight years in Tochigi-ken, Niigata-ken, and Osaka-ku Japan, my
> elementary/middle school school-age children both received from and gave
it
> to
> Japanese school peers, meaning variously, "I don't care," "Who cares, so
> what," and "Baka" (you are stupid), and sometimes as a joking greeting
> between friends.  They did not know it before arriving in Japan at the
ages
> of three and five. My university students also used it occasionally with
> each other, but always laughed as though it was intended humorously.
>
> The closed rounded forefinger/thumb with remaining fingers slightly
> elevated and curled signals "money" in Japan, although my students were
> also familiar with its "O.K." U.S. meaning, as well as South American
> meaning as a substitute for the middle finger. The last learned during in
> the past ten years with the large influx of second and third-generation
> Japanese from Brazil, Peru, Columbia, etc. to fulfill
> kkk labor needs.
>
> And while I'm here:
> >At 10:35 PM 11/2/2000 -0500, "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> >wrote:
> >probably you'll even see "He's so Staten Island" somewhere ....
>
> I overheard one of my daughter's softball teammates huffily comment after
> being thrown out at first base:  "I was SO there."
>
> "Ghetto" is used by non-ghetto teens at my school as a descriptor of
anything
> that they look down upon or of which they disapprove, as in "her hair was
> so ghetto," or "I would never go to the Mall looking so ghetto." Here "so"
and
> "ghetto" are frequently played together.
>
> Warm regards, and always thoroughly correctable,
>
> Sharon Vaipae
> LMedu at jps.net
> DR High School
> Tracy, CA
>
> Sharon Vaipae           "The truth shall make you odd."
> LMedu at jps.net                          - Flannery O'Connor
> Tracy, CA
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov  4 23:59:45 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 18:59:45 EST
Subject: C-Level; Going North
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.185945.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

C-LEVEL

   Didn't the top used to be A-level, as in A-Number One?  Nothing beats a
pun (C-level/sea level), I suppose.  There are quite a few relevant hits on
the Dow Jones database.
   From the NEW YORK OBSERVER, 6 November 2000, pg. 30, col. 2 ad:

   _C-LEVEL_
   _JOB TITLES._
   _C-NOTE-FILLED_
   _WALLETS._
The C means clout.  And our readers have it.  52% of them hold C-level job
titles and the average overall net worth of $1.8 million dollars means
they're looking to buy. (...)
   _RED HERRING_
   RED HOT

(This thing is now twice a month.  Just what I need--more reading about the
internet, computers, and technology--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
GOING NORTH

   From the FINANCIAL TIMES, Weekend, Nov. 4-5, 2000, pg. 13, col. 2, in a
story (with a large photo you just can't miss) about the Bioform bra:

   It'll sell.  I've been wearing one for almost a week, and feeling very
Jayne Mansfield.  (In the trade, they call it "going north" rather than "east
and west.")

(Do they also say "going south"?--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov  5 01:39:12 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 20:39:12 EST
Subject: L.A. Free Press (1965-1966)
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.203912.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I didn't get through all of 1966.  The NYPL microfilm room has no air
circulation, you know.
   THE POWER OF POSITIVE PESSIMISM by Howard Kandel was advertised in the L.
A. Free Press's "New Adult Humor Library."  This book had "Proverbs For Our
Times."  I'd like to see it, but not even the LOC has it.
   Here goes:

9 July 1965, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 2--It is manifested by precisely that apathy
and underlying terror that characterized us during what were so inaccurately
termed "the flaccid fifties"--a willingness to be led, bred by the
interaction of authoritarian education with a more and more inhuman
environment, and sustained by the mass media, consisting in part of the
increasing trivialisation of leisure and entertainment.

6 August 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1---HOT DAMN, VIET NAM. (...)  Well, futz,
putz or nuts... (...)  If Lyndon has one constant and unchanging public image
of himself that he is interested in maintaining, it might be summed up in the
words: Hot Damn!  I'm the Man!  And the Nigras are not the only ones who know
what is meant by "The Man."

20 August 1965, LAFP, pg. 4, col. 1---CHORUS:  Let's Get Whitey!...We are
going to put the fear of the Negro into these white people because they do
not have the fear of God...Burn, Baby, Burn.

3 September 1965, LAFP, pg. 1 headline--_Beatlemania!  Screeeaaam!_  (Rock &
roll at the Hollywood Bowl--ed.)

3 September 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--The rush on the marriage clerks to
beat the draft deadline proved that there are millions in America who, in act
if not in word, subscribe to the slogan: MAKE LOVE, NOT WAR.

3 September 1965,  LAFP, pg. 4, col. 3 cartoon--"_I knew it!_  You've been
watching so much t.v. lately you no longer know which way is up!"

10 September 1965, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 3--The set, the Greenwich Village
apartment of Nora, a "square-eyed 'highball'" ("What's that?" "Baby, if you
knew what it was, you wouldn't be a highball.")....

17 September 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--BETTER DEAD THAN RED: Those who say
better dead than red are probably right.  They WOULD be better dead than
red--and that may be our last best hope for survival.

17 September 1965, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 4--...VSP's--Very Special People....
(Also in this column is "Watts New, Pussycat?"--ed.)

24 September 1965, LAFP, pg. 1, col. 3--Psychedelic Art.

1 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 3, col. 3--Excuse me if I use this word, but we
have long since stopped calling them police officers.  We call them the
"gestapo."

8 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--THIS IS THE WAY IT IS, MAN.

8 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--...turned eighteen and is eligible to
get himself murdered or maimed for Freedom, Justice, Truth, and Mom's apple
pie.

8 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--"LICENSED TO KILL": That is how LeRoi
Jones describes the Great American Hero, the Private Eye, the International
Spy Good Guy, God's Own G.I. carrying the Gospel of God and Country into all
parts of the world on the business end of a bayonet.

15 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 4, col. 2--"Get that white M. F." (...) "Licensed
to Kill."  An excellent summary and description of our time.  "Culturally
depraved." (A phrase seen in a copy of NEWSWEEK.)

15 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 1--...the growers "are scared like
rabbits."  (Rabbits?--ed.)

22 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 1, col. 4--"TEACH-OUT."

22 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--...the Judeo-Christian God, also known
among the folksy as The Man Upstairs....

22 October 1965, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 4--"Generation X"--For Big Tall Men Only!
(Is this  an ad?--ed.)

3 December 1965, LAFP, pg. 8, col. 1-5 ad for BUMPERSTICKERS!--START THE DAY
WITH A SMILE and get it over with (...) If you can read this, you're too
close.
10 December 1965, LAFP, pg. 3, col. 1--First City.  (New York--ed.)

21 January 1966, LAFP, pg. 3, col. 1--HUBERT HUMPHREY IS NOT A SELL-OUT
ARTIST: He never had anything to sell.

28 January 1966, LAFP, pg. 8, col. 1--LIFE LONG LEARNING.  (Free University
of California ad--ed.)

18 February 1966, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--LAST STAND OF AMERICAN GOTHIC: Not
since Amos 'n Andy went off the air has it been so hard for the red-blooded,
110% American to feel White Supreme and Top Banana in the land of the free
and the home of the Brave.

25 February 1966, LAFP, pg. 9, col. 2--(Review of IT'S FUN TO BE A POLLACK
and the origin of Polish jokes--ed.)

4 March 1966, LAFP, pg. 2, col. 1--THE NEW MISTER CLEAN:  FIrst it was FDR,
then it was Henry Wallace, then Stevenson, then JFK, then Hubert Humphrey,
and now it's beginning all over again with Bobby Kennedy.

4 March 1966, LAFP, pg. 6, col. 2--...the nuclear disarmament SANE symbol
roughly painted in white on a blue bakground were all simple and effective.
("Peace" symbol--ed.)


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Nov  5 03:09:44 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:09:44 CST
Subject: Double Modals [was fronted /oU/]
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.210944.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"and she volunteered that she grew up with double modals as well."

Oooooh. Double modals. A frisson goes up my spine, as somewhere, someplace,
in my English, these are *grammatical*.

There are rules: I oughta shoulda, shouldna oughta. I 'fess these are the
only active (but ruthlessly supressed) double modals in my vocabulary.

Positively, the sense is mostly emphatic, but there is a real sense of
obligation, but the thing to be done is something that will most likely not
be done, because you yourself don't want to do it.

Shouldna oughta is self-affirmed sin, a confession, something you admit you
should not have done.

I shouldna oughta posted this to ADS-list, in that everyone who reads it
knows this already.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Nov  5 03:23:24 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 21:23:24 CST
Subject: fronted /oU/
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.212324.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"And by the way, I heard my first clear  double modal from an Athenian just
the other day--"might could"!"

Does this mean 'I am willing to do it, provided I have the means and
motivation to do it'?

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Nov  5 05:31:45 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2000 22:31:45 -0700
Subject: /ow/ fronting
In-Reply-To: <39F9F77800093D24@deimos.email.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <SAT.4.NOV.2000.223145.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I lived in Washington, D.C. in 1972-80, one of the most striking
things I noted (and even heard commented on) was the fronting of the first
element of the /ow/ in Baltimore-area speech. When people came on TV news
programs for interviews, you could easily spot those from the Baltimore
area by this feature. The onset in the diphthong had become a very schwa-
like sound, but the glide seemed fairly short and the effect was not at
all RP-like. It had, to use a very non-scientific impressionistic
reaction, a rather "soft" quality to it.
        I've heard something similar in Oklahoma as a rural pronunciation,
but the impressionistic effect is quite different.
        Arnold Zwicky commented on the naturalness of the change. While I
agree, and point to the parallel Scottish shift of /uw/ --> /iw/ (also
common after alveolars elsewhere), one could presumably argue that any
change to an adjacent position is natural, as happened in the Great Vowel
Shift (ignoring whether it was one or a disconnected set of shifts),
except here /ow/ raised to /uw/, rather than fronting. [/uw/, of course,
front-lowered to /@w/ and thence to /aw/ and further to /aew/ in a chain-
seqence.]

        Rudy


From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Sun Nov  5 13:22:04 2000
From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (TERRY IRONS)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 08:22:04 -0500
Subject: fronted /oU/
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20001104164300.00c99260@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.082204.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Current thinking seems to be thatthat the fronting of the back vowels is
more of a pandialectal phenom and not part of the Southern shift per se.  It
seems missing in draft parts of Labov's Atlas of North America.

A naive question:  What is th relation between this pattern of fronting
and the process of unrounding?  I notice considerable unrounding or
spread in the production of back vowels in these hereabout parts.



Virtually, Terry
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Nov  5 16:53:34 2000
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 08:53:34 -0800
Subject: Contacting Julie Sweetland
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.085334.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know the e-mail address for Julie
Sweetland who teaches (or did teach) at Goergetown
University?

=====
Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Associate Professor - English and Linguistics
& University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
757-727-5769 (voice);757-727-5421 (fax);757-851-5773(home)
e-mail:  mlee303 at yahoo.com   or   margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Nov  5 20:01:57 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 14:01:57 -0600
Subject: Cappuccino--a query
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.140157.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Barry Popik has presented various items indicating that  cappuccino
(both the coffee-drink and the name) were invented in San Francisco by Fred
Landi;  Landi reportedly made this invention in 1937 or 1938, and the first
written attestation is 1946.

        However, in a July 24, 2000 message to ADS-L, Jan Ivarsson cites
evidence from his Italian dictionary which says that cappuccino is
traceable to 1905.  If this date is accurate, Fred Landi  would be ruled
out as the inventor of cappuccino and its name, but he would at least be
left as the individual who introduced both to the U.S. Here is Ivarsson's
message:
>>
>>    My Italian dictionary (Sabatini-Coletti, Dizionario italiano  on
>>CD-ROM) says about "cappuccino": Bevanda a base di caff? espresso e
>>latte. Deriv. di  "cappuccino 1" per il colore simile a quello del
>>saio... a 1905 which means: Drink made up of caf? espresso and milk.
>>Derived from "cappuccino 1" (Capuchin monk clad in a brownish hood)
>>because of the color  similar to that of the hood... Known since 1905.
>>Thus it seems hardly probable that the drink was invented by  Mr. Landi
>>in 1938 San Francisco. Jan Ivarsson, Simrishamn,  Sweden
>>
        The question now arises: Are there any Italian dictionaries from
1905-1936 which actually attest "cappuccino" for the time of publication or
can specifically give an earlier citation?  Would anyone have access to
such dictionaries? And does anyone have access to an Italian etymological
dictionary which includes "cappuccino"?
        Any assistance would be much appreciated.

-----Gerald Cohen







gcohen at umr.edu


From sagehen at SLIC.COM  Sun Nov  5 20:55:35 2000
From: sagehen at SLIC.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 15:55:35 -0500
Subject: cappucino--a query
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.155535.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gerald Cohen writes:
>"cappuccino": Bevanda a base di caff? espresso e latte.<
This comports  better with my own recollection that the last time I was in
Italy, thirty years ago, cappuccino was a coffee/milk  drink.  I was
puzzled by the references to it as a chocolate concoction.
A. Murie


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sun Nov  5 21:06:05 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 16:06:05 -0500
Subject: double modals
In-Reply-To: <F24b0zrAXBirbThA9QR0000a718@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.160605.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not at all sure how to interpret double modals, since they're rare in
this area.  Bethany Dumas is the expert on them--can you help us, Bethany?

At 09:23 PM 11/4/00 -0600, you wrote:
>"And by the way, I heard my first clear  double modal from an Athenian just
>the other day--"might could"!"
>
>Does this mean 'I am willing to do it, provided I have the means and
>motivation to do it'?
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
>http://profiles.msn.com.


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov  5 09:30:25 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:30:25 +0800
Subject: double modals (was: fronted /oU/)
In-Reply-To: <F24b0zrAXBirbThA9QR0000a718@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.173025.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"And by the way, I heard my first clear  double modal from an Athenian just
>the other day--"might could"!"
>
>Does this mean 'I am willing to do it, provided I have the means and
>motivation to do it'?
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
Actually, the "might" in this case is always (as far as I know)
epistemic, and could be replaced by the semantically equivalent
"maybe" or "perhaps".  "I might could do it" is basically equivalent
to "Perhaps I could do it".  In the double modal dialects I'm aware
of, epistemic "might" will typically if not always show up as the
first in a string of two or three modals.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov  5 09:34:12 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:34:12 +0800
Subject: Cappuccino--a query
In-Reply-To: <v03130300b62b682b9891@[131.151.64.135]>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.173412.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:01 PM -0600 11/5/00, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>         Barry Popik has presented various items indicating that  cappuccino
>(both the coffee-drink and the name) were invented in San Francisco by Fred
>Landi;  Landi reportedly made this invention in 1937 or 1938, and the first
>written attestation is 1946.
>
>         However, in a July 24, 2000 message to ADS-L, Jan Ivarsson cites
>evidence from his Italian dictionary which says that cappuccino is
>traceable to 1905.  If this date is accurate, Fred Landi  would be ruled
>out as the inventor of cappuccino and its name, but he would at least be
>left as the individual who introduced both to the U.S. Here is Ivarsson's
>message:
>>>
>>>     My Italian dictionary (Sabatini-Coletti, Dizionario italiano  on
>>>CD-ROM) says about "cappuccino": Bevanda a base di caff? espresso e
>>>latte. Deriv. di  "cappuccino 1" per il colore simile a quello del
>>>saio... a 1905 which means: Drink made up of caf? espresso and milk.
>>>Derived from "cappuccino 1" (Capuchin monk clad in a brownish hood)
>>>because of the color  similar to that of the hood... Known since 1905.
>>>Thus it seems hardly probable that the drink was invented by  Mr. Landi
>>>in 1938 San Francisco. Jan Ivarsson, Simrishamn,  Sweden
>>>
>         The question now arises: Are there any Italian dictionaries from
>1905-1936 which actually attest "cappuccino" for the time of publication or
>can specifically give an earlier citation?  Would anyone have access to
>such dictionaries? And does anyone have access to an Italian etymological
>dictionary which includes "cappuccino"?
>         Any assistance would be much appreciated.
>
>-----Gerald Cohen

as we've seen, there's also the weird morphing of cappuccino into a
chocolate-based drink in the early U.S. (S.F.) cites, before the
coffee version took over (again).

larry


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Sun Nov  5 23:42:36 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:42:36 -0600
Subject: /ow/ fronting
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.174236.0600.>

The Host(ess) of this week's highly over-rated Saturday Night Live used the vowel in
question.
DMLance

Rudolph C Troike wrote:

> When I lived in Washington, D.C. in 1972-80, one of the most striking
> things I noted (and even heard commented on) was the fronting of the first
> element of the /ow/ in Baltimore-area speech. When people came on TV news
> programs for interviews, you could easily spot those from the Baltimore
> area by this feature. The onset in the diphthong had become a very schwa-
> like sound, but the glide seemed fairly short and the effect was not at
> all RP-like. It had, to use a very non-scientific impressionistic
> reaction, a rather "soft" quality to it.
>         I've heard something similar in Oklahoma as a rural pronunciation,
> but the impressionistic effect is quite different.
>         Arnold Zwicky commented on the naturalness of the change. While I
> agree, and point to the parallel Scottish shift of /uw/ --> /iw/ (also
> common after alveolars elsewhere), one could presumably argue that any
> change to an adjacent position is natural, as happened in the Great Vowel
> Shift (ignoring whether it was one or a disconnected set of shifts),
> except here /ow/ raised to /uw/, rather than fronting. [/uw/, of course,
> front-lowered to /@w/ and thence to /aw/ and further to /aew/ in a chain-
> seqence.]
>
>         Rudy


From msjce1 at JUNO.COM  Sun Nov  5 22:59:42 2000
From: msjce1 at JUNO.COM (Jimmie C Ellis)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 14:59:42 -0800
Subject: Cappuccino--a query
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.145942.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It is also a variety of cabbage.


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Mon Nov  6 00:21:04 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 19:21:04 -0500
Subject: double modals
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20001105160430.00cc2310@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.192104.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 5 Nov 2000, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

>I'm not at all sure how to interpret double modals, since they're rare in
>this area.  Bethany Dumas is the expert on them--can you help us, Bethany?

I'd like to respond, but cannot do so immediately.

Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  6 00:59:34 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 19:59:34 EST
Subject: Cappuccino--a query
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.195934.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    NYU has these dictionaries.

GRANDE DIZIONARIO ITALIANO DELL'USO (2000), UTET
_cappuccino_ (...)
3 s.m. (1905) bevanda calda a base di caffe e latte reso schiumoso dal vapore
prodotto dalla macchina del caffe espresso: _c. scuro_, con molto caffee; _c.
chiaro_, con poco caffe

GRANDE DIZIONARIO DELLA LINGUA ITALIANA (1961) by Salvatore Battaglia, Union
Tipografico-Editrice Torinese
_Cappuccino_ (...)
2. Sm. Caffe caldo mescolato con latter (cosi detto per il colore)

   I'm going to the Library of Congress and there are plenty of dictionaries
to check out, if I have the time.  A 1943 English-Italian soldier's
dictionary should be of interest.


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Nov  6 01:46:27 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 17:46:27 -0800
Subject: 1955 Seattle drinks (long)
In-Reply-To: <c5.ab3e54f.2734764e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.174627.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry Popik has probably unearthed all of these before, but I can't recall
a posting. These are all taken from a thin book about Seattle restaurants:
Speidel, William C. You can't eat Mount Rainier! (illustrated by Bob
Cram) Portland, Ore. : Binfords & Mort, 1955.
Several pages down there is a recipe of Cappuccino, or at least something
called a Cappuccino.

All of the restaurants are, or at least were in Seattle:

Deverso's
Catherine's Cocktail (Catherine of Deverso's)--1/2 jigger whiskey, 1 t
maraschino cherry juice, 1 1/2 jiggers Italian vermouth. Serve in a Gibson
glass garnish w/cherry

"Irving's 620 adds a zany touch to a dry martini ..."
Glacier Worm Cocktail--1 pt French vermouth, 3 pts gin, dash of orange
bitters, twist of lemon peel, piece of cooked macaroni ... "Irving's
garnish: draw a face at one end of the macaroni with an indelible pencil,
insert a bit of pimento for the tongue and curl the 'glacier worm' around
inside the glass" [N.B. Irving's 620 is no longer in business.--adm]

>From Warling's cocktail recipe from the Swedish liner Gripsholm
Jeanette special--1 1/4 oz Aquavit, 1/2 oz Cointreau, 2 oz lemon sour
mix w/cracked ice , strain into glass.

>From the Marine Room
Lady Olympic--1 oz vodka, 1/2 oz Cherry Herring, juice of 1/2 lime. mix in
electric mixer strain into cocktail glass.

>From Bob the bartender at Pancho's
Shortsnorter--3 dashes Triple Sec, 3 oz Jamaica rum, 1 oz bourbon. place
in an old fashioned glass over ice, add 7-Uo and juice of 1/4 lime, stir

>From the Plaid Piper
Tartan special--1/3 oz heavy cream, 1 t honey, 1 oz scotch. shake with
ice, strain into cocktail glass

>From Selandia [there are several Scandinavian theme resaurants, as one
might expect, and this drink is very similar to the one cited above
from Warling's--adm]
Three crown cocktail--3/4 oz Aquavit 3/4 oz Triple Sec juice of 1/2 lemon
shake, serve in frosted glass

The Ranch has
Evergreen tree topper--1 1/2 oz vodka, 1/2 oz creme de cocao, 1/2 oz lime
juice, green creme de menthe. use chimney glass filled with fine ice and
add above, fill with soda and top off with green creme de menthe, garnish
with cherry and orange, serve with straws.

Another from Pancho's
Flamingo--1 oz Kahlua, 1 oz sweet cream, 3/4 oz Chamberryzette, 3/4 oz
simple syrup. shake well w/cracked ice, strain into large fizz glass, top
with nutmeg

An original from The Colony "... as mixed by Art Sampson."
The Jaguar--2 oz Jamaica rum, 1/8 oz sweet port, 1/4 oz Cognac, 1/8 oz
sweet vermouth, 1/8 oz sloe gin, juice of 1 lime, 1/8 oz Cointreau, 1/8 oz
Creme de cacao, dash simple syrup, dash almond syrup. pour all into
frosted chimney glass filled with crushed ice, fill up with
champagne. topping--long sliver of fresh pineapple--four picks with a
cherry on each stuck into pineapple

>From El Gaucho
Pampas pipperoo--1 oz lemon juice, 1/4 oz grenadine, 1/2 oz orange juice,
1/2 oz light rum, 1/2 oz simple syrup. fill a 14 oz chimney glass 3/4 full
of fine ice and above ingred. add seltzer to almost fill then float 1/2 oz
demerara rum. take 1/2 lime shell (already squeezed) turn inside out, set
on top of the glass, pour in a little 151 proof Demerara rum and light.

>From Skipper's [not the present day Skipper's, I'm sure--adm]
Roof raiser--2 oz dark rum, 3/4 oz Passionola, 1/2 oz lemon juice, 1/2 oz
Curacao. blend with ice, put in Zombie glass over cracked ice, garnish
with pineapple cube, cherry and mint leaf

Harold's Charcoal Broiler
Sage 'n' sand desert cooler--1 oz brandy, 1/4 oz creme de menthe, orange
juice, lemon juice. put brandy and creme de menthe in a tall glass, fill
1/3 with lemon juice remainder with orange

Four Winds restaurant
Schooner--1/2 oz Ron Rico rum, 1/2 oz 151 proof rum, 2 oz port wine, 1 1/2
oz papaya juice, 1 oz sugar syrup, 1 oz lemon juice. squeeze juice of one
lime, add rest of ingredients and mix. pour over ice.

Not surprisingly from the Kalua Room:
Surf and sand (for 2)--3 oz orange juice, 3 oz lemon juice, 3 oz light
rum, 1 1/2 oz Orgeat syrup, 1/2 oz brandy, 1 1/2 scoops shaved ice. fill
large rum cup 3/4 full of chipped ice, mix and blend above ingred. pour
into bowl of ice and float gardenia on top.

Norselander has
Viking fog cutter--1 oz rum, 1/2 oz brandy, 1/2 oz gin, 2 oz lemon juice,
1 oz orange juice, 1/2 oz Orgeat, Aquavit float. shake all but
Aquvit. pour into 12 oz glass fill with cracked ice and float
Aquavit. serve with straws.

****under the section "Special Ambrosias" is the following:

"A most delightful drink which takes its name from the early Capuchin
monks. Rosellini's [legendary Seattle reataurant--adm] makes it with
special steam pressure equipment ...
Cappuccino
Milk, sweet chocolate or sweet cocao, liquor (either Rum, Brandy or
Bourbon). Put a teaspoon of sweet chocolate or sweet cocao in a cup or
special hot drink glass--pour 1 oz heated milk and stir. When chocolate or
cocoa is dissolved, fill cup 3/4 full of heated milk (not boiling). Then
add 1 oz favorite liquor"

Finally a drink by Peter Canlis [Canlis is another venerable Seattle
restaurant which is still in business--adm]
Sea breeze--Cognac, green creme de menthe, heavy cream, white creme de
cocao, handful of ice. blend rapidly in blender, serve in champagne glass.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  6 03:43:46 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 22:43:46 EST
Subject: E.V.O. (1968)
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.224346.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Thanks for the YOU CAN'T EAT MOUNT RAINIER (1955) book!  I had heard of
it, but hadn't read it!
   I went through the EAST VILLAGE OTHER for 1968.

March 22-28, 1968, EVO, pg. 10, col. 2 headline: NEW HOPE FOR THE RHYTHM
METHOD.  (Jazz article--ed.)

March 29-April 4, 1968, EVO, pg. 1, col. 2--WHEN THE MAN'S SHIT HITS THE
FAN--.

May 17, 1968, EVO, pg. 12, col. 1--"In His Guts, He Knows He's Nuts."

July 26, 1968, EVO, pg. 6, col. 3--STAR DRECK.  (Astrology column--ed.)

July 26, 1968, EVO, pg. 13, cols. 1-3 headline--"SISTER SADIE AND THE SONS OF
SAM."  (A play title.  David Berkowitz took this title at what date?--ed.)

August 2, 1968, EVO, pg. 13, col. 1--LSD FREAKOUTS.

September 20, 1968, EVO, pg. 2, col. 1--If each man or woman is to (pardon
me) "do his own thing," then some will necessarily have to conform while
others will be rebels.
("dipshit" is written sideways as a filler on this page--ed.)

September 20, 1968, EVO, pg. 11, col. 1--_You Are What You Eat_ is due to
open with a benefit for the American Indians. (...) YAWYE...

October 4, 1968, EVO, pg. 9 cartoon title--SHAKE IT BUT DON'T BREAK IT.  (The
cartoon shows--oh, never mind--ed.)

October 18, 1968, EVO, pg. 9 "BOOGER BUDDIES" cartoon--SPODIE ODIE!...SALAMI
MOMMY!

October 18, 1968, EVO, pg. 9 cartoon--A HONKY VISITS THE LOWER EAST SIDE AND
MAKES A DAMN FOOL OF HISSELF!!  (White man gives "peace" sign to black
people--ed.)  "HI!  PEACE, EVERYBODY!" "I LOVE YOU PEOPLE!" (Origin of "I
love you, man"?--ed.)

October 18, 1968, EVO, pg. 10 cartoon (NOT Robert Crumb--ed.)--"Oh Keep on
Trucking, Mamma."

October 18, 1968, EVO, pg. 14 "CUM COMICS" cartoon--"GETTIN' ANY LATELY?"
(...) "NICE GOIN' ACE!" (...) "FUCKIN' AY!!"

October 18, 1968, EVO, pg. 26, col. 1 ad for "MAN-TO-MAN INC."--HOW TO MEET
MR. RIGHT and STOP TRYING TO FIT A ROUND PEG INTO A SQUARE HOLE.

October 25, 1968, EVO, pg. 2, col. 2--When in doubt: PUNT!

October 25, 1968, EVO, pg. 12 cartoon--"HEY, TURDLE--WOT'S HOPPENIN'?"  (Said
by a rabbit to a turtle--ed.)(...) "FAR OUT!" (...) MAN, YER TOO MUCH!

November 15-21, 1968, EVO, pg. 2, col. 1--...And if you don't like it here
why don't you go to commie China or North Vietnam with all those slopeheads
or Russia??!!

November 22, 1968, EVO, pg. 11 cartoon:
NARD N' PAT
VISIT THE CITY OF
NEW YORK CITY.
   "WELL, KITTY-KAT, OL' PAL.  HERE WE ARE IN NOO-YAWK CITY!  TH' "BIG
APPLE," AS SOME CALL IT!"
   "APPLE SCHMAPPLE!  IT'S A CITY OF MORAL CORRUPTION!"

(This wasn't published, either, but as I had told William Safire for his "Big
Apple column," the late Convention & Visitors Bureau President Charles
Gillett deserves credit for re-popularizing the term in 1970-1971.  However,
before that, the 1960s jazz musicians had begun to bring "Big Apple" back.
See, also, the "Big Apple" reference in Kurt Vonnegut's SLAUGHTERHOUSE
FIVE--ed.)


From funex79 at SLONET.ORG  Mon Nov  6 04:14:00 2000
From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster)
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:14:00 -0800
Subject: cappucino--a query
Message-ID: <SUN.5.NOV.2000.201400.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A note to cappuccino discussants:

I have in front of me as I write this a somewhat worn glass ashtray
purloined  in a moment of drunken abandon from the Tosca Cafe on Columbus
Avenue in San Francisco, "HOME OF THE FAMOUS CAPPUCCINO." Beneath this are
the names Fred Landi and Ugo pieri. And yes the drink as made there was
chocolate with rum or brandy. I live in San Francisco for several months in
1948  and I remember having  it a number of times. In more recent years as
the "real" cappuccino has become  more popular and available I have often
wondered why it differed from my memory of what a cappuccino was. This
discussion has helped clear that for me.   Thanks.

J Foster

 "sagehen" <sagehen at SLIC.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2000 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: cappucino--a query


> Gerald Cohen writes:
> >"cappuccino": Bevanda a base di caff? espresso e latte.<
> This comports  better with my own recollection that the last time I was in
> Italy, thirty years ago, cappuccino was a coffee/milk  drink.  I was
> puzzled by the references to it as a chocolate concoction.
> A. Murie
>


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  6 09:01:36 2000
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 04:01:36 EST
Subject: double modals
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.040136.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've often heard expressions, such as "I may could get that done, "I might
can do it" or "He might could/would do it," which I interpret to mean, "There
is a possibility that the subject will (be able to do) something, but (s)he
won't know until (s)he makes the attempt/effort."  Thus, the sense of both
"might" and "could/would/can" is the epistemic, or logically probable, one
(might=probably; would=will ; could/can=have the ability to).  Compare these
to expressions which indicate a higher probability of an action's being
fulfilled or realized, such as the following:  "I could get that done,"  "I
can do it," and "I know he could/would [not past habitual]/will do it."
                            PAT


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Mon Nov  6 09:23:09 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 01:23:09 -0800
Subject: cappucino--a query
In-Reply-To: <001a01c047a7$fe803720$9ad972cf@funex79>
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.012309.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>A note to cappuccino discussants:
>
>I have in front of me as I write this a somewhat worn glass ashtray
>purloined  in a moment of drunken abandon from the Tosca Cafe on Columbus
Avenue in San Francisco, ..."

The first time I had cappuccino was in Israel in 1961.  It was made
with chocolate.  The next time was somewhere in the Village, it also
was made with chocolate.  The third time it was in Tosca - with
chocolate and alcohol (yum).  After that, in other places, no
chocolate.  I was confused, but it seemed that no place but Tosca
here made it with chocolate.  Sad.

Rima


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Mon Nov  6 15:55:32 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 10:55:32 -0500
Subject: double modals (was: fronted /oU/)
In-Reply-To: <p04320403b62ad892c7e3@[130.132.231.220]>
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.105532.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some observations from a lightly-edited paper from the past (from a
native double modal speaker):

I have mentioned that studies of Southern Mt.. English based on attested
forms have all concluded that double modal constructions are rare. Early
participant observers (Carr 1905, Randolph & Wilson 1953) reached the same
conclusion. However, the intuitions and reported experiences of recent
participant observers (ELgin, Dumas, Bailey and Montgomery) are
otherwise. Montgomery and I, in particular, agree that multiple modal
occurrence is at least occasional except when a tape recorder is running.

I am convinced on the basis of my participant observer experience in
northwest Arkansas and East Tennessee that the rarity of multiple modal
construction in Linguistic Atlas and sociolinguistic interviews is an
artifact of the nature and structure of such interviews, not of the
frequency of occurrence of the constructions in naturally occurring
conversations. Atlas interviews are highly item-oriented; sociolinguistic
interviews are heavily narrative-oriented. Multiple modals do not
naturally occur with frequency in item-oriented or narrative-oriented
conversational interaction. As Rickford 1973 points out, some
stigmatized forms are rare in sociolinguistic interviews "because the
semantic conditions which they are normally introduced to express may
occur rarely, if at all, in the course of a sociolinguistic
interview" (p. 163).  (See also Butters 1973.)

Rather, they occur in such discourse environments as the following:

A. Possibility, with respect to past action:
   10. We might could have gone if he had gotten tickets. (#20 on the handout)
B. Possibility, with respect to present state:
   11. They may still could be all right U. T. fans.  (#30 on the handout)
C. Possibility, with respect to future action:
   12. I might could go.  (#23 on the handout)
D. Mitigation of a directive:
   13. Might could be you'd want to take a look out your east window
        toward my rose bushes. (#13 on the handout)

A number of interesting questions have been raised by the
literature. Briefly, they are these:
1. What base constructions are used?
2. How do the constructions vary with respect to provenance, frequency,
        and acceptability?
3. How are tags and questions formed?
4. What is their structure? I.e., is the first element a modal or an
        adverb?
5. What is their significance?  I.e., are multiple modal constructions
        anything more than lexical variants?

We have in the literature partial, sometimes conflicting answers to all
these questions. None of the answers are based upon a large corpus of
attested forms. The most interesting question of all seems to me to be the
following: How have these constructions spread in English and how is it
that their greatest frequency today appears to be in Southern and
AAVE varieties?

Historically, the double modals appear to have developed from Middle
English. Many constructions are reported from Scottish [?] and other
varieties of Northern British English. The settlement history of the
American south suggests, as Guy Bailey has pointed out to me recently,
that the construction spread from South Midland into Southern English,
possibly thence into AAVE and Atlantic creoles.

If this is true, than it is mysterious that many more attested examples
are reported for the lower south and the creoles, including Black English.

My tentative hypothesis for the present state of affairs is this: As
double modals developed in early Modern English, they grammaticalized and
developed a purely lexical function; i.e., they served as lexical variants
of phrases like "May be I can" or "I might be able to."  They retained
that lexical function, but as they spread into the lower south, they came
to function as politeness markers more than as simple lexical variants.

Bethany


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Nov  6 16:07:51 2000
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 11:07:51 -0500
Subject: Cappuccino--a query
In-Reply-To: <v03130300b62b682b9891@[131.151.64.135]>
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.110751.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not sure how much this helps, but here goes.

The Grande dizionario della lingua italiana offers the following
quotation from Alfredo Panzini's Dizionario moderno delle parole
che non si trovano nei dizionari comuni, nuovamente compilata da
B. Migliorini,  Milano, 1950 (primiera ed. originale, 1905):

'Cappuccino', caffe nero mescolato con poco latte.  Voce dell'uso,
derivata probabilmente dal colore simile alla tonaca del frate
cappuccino.

The problem is, of course, that it's impossible to tell whether the
quotation appeared in the original edition or only in Migliorini's
revision.  Would anyone have a 1905 Panzini handy?

Joanne Despres
Merriam-Webster


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov  6 17:33:39 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 12:33:39 -0500
Subject: Cappuccino--a query
In-Reply-To: <3A069107.12514.6222FBF5@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.123339.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 6 Nov 2000 jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM wrote:

> The problem is, of course, that it's impossible to tell whether the
> quotation appeared in the original edition or only in Migliorini's
> revision.  Would anyone have a 1905 Panzini handy?

And the answer is...  The same quotation appeared in the 1905 edition.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  6 17:55:26 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 12:55:26 EST
Subject: "Jazbo" (Jan. 3, 1916)
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.125526.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from the Library of Congress, where I did not find anything
under "Fred Landi" or "cappuccino" in the copyright section.  The copyrights
are divided 1898-1937 and then 1938-1945.  I checked for books and songs.
Trademarks are in another building.

JAZBO

   JAZZ--AN ILLUSTRATED HISTORY by Geoffrey C. Ward (the companion book to
the PBS documentary by Ken Burns that will premiere in January) will hit the
bookstores tomorrow.
   The earliest "jazz" song copyright (I may have cited this before) is:

JAZBO: FOXTROT
by Arthur S. Shaw
January 3, 1916
Forster Music Publishers, Chicago
E375282

   "Jazz" in Chicago in 1915-1916!


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov  6 18:12:31 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 13:12:31 -0500
Subject: more vowel weirdness
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.131231.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dale Coye wrote:
>>>>>
>If this is the feature I think you mean, I've noticed it from private
school
>grads (Exeter, Andover, Lawrenceville, and others) as far back as the late
>70s.   A fronted first element-- almost as in RP. I always wondered how
>widespread it was.
<<<<<

dInIs aens at rd:
>>>>>
Careful of its widespreadedness. Its source at the yuppie places you
mention is almost certainly RP (although I'd be happy to hear of other
theories), but back-vowel fronting is rampant in the American South and,
with slightly different pohonetic details, "Valley Girl," the latter
spreading like wildfire to the East. All these similar shifts may be
bumping heads in some places.
<<<<<

As I've read RP described, and heard it, the first element of the diphthong
in "hope" is not a fronted [o] but its opposite, a backed [e] or
*unrounded* [o], with the IPA symbol called "ram's horns" or "baby gamma".


-- Mark


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Mon Nov  6 18:30:58 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 12:30:58 -0600
Subject: double modals (was: fronted /oU/)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0011061046520.25379-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.123058.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE has a pretty interesting sample of multiple modals at "may" verb,
section B.


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  6 18:38:09 2000
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 13:38:09 EST
Subject: double modals (was: fronted /oU/)
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.133809.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've never perceived a "politeness" function of these "serial modals."  In
fact, I have sensed more of a "doubt" or "hesitancy" motive on the part of
the speakers--a phenomenon quite similar to the ever-increasing pairing of
"kinda" and "sorta," as in "I kinda (=kind of) sort a (=sort of) think I'll
be able to do it."  These serial modals occur in the same context (Cf. I
think I might could/can/would do it.)
                                     PAT


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov  6 06:09:27 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:09:27 +0800
Subject: more vowel weirdness
In-Reply-To: <OFDDB3A51C.75B29A68-ON8525698F.0063B629@dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.140927.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Dale Coye wrote:
>>>>>>
>>If this is the feature I think you mean, I've noticed it from private
>school
>>grads (Exeter, Andover, Lawrenceville, and others) as far back as the late
>>70s.   A fronted first element-- almost as in RP. I always wondered how
>>widespread it was.
><<<<<
>
>dInIs aens at rd:
>>>>>>
>Careful of its widespreadedness. Its source at the yuppie places you
>mention is almost certainly RP (although I'd be happy to hear of other
>theories), but back-vowel fronting is rampant in the American South and,
>with slightly different pohonetic details, "Valley Girl," the latter
>spreading like wildfire to the East. All these similar shifts may be
>bumping heads in some places.
><<<<<
>
>As I've read RP described, and heard it, the first element of the diphthong
>in "hope" is not a fronted [o] but its opposite, a backed [e] or
>*unrounded* [o], with the IPA symbol called "ram's horns" or "baby gamma".
>
>-- Mark
Exactly.  You've put your finger on what I found unsatisfactory in
the previous invocations of RP, which Ainsley's vowel didn't strike
me as being at all reminiscent of.  Her vowel is indeed fronted,
although I'm still not sure whether it's a symptom of southernness,
private school pretentiousness, both, or neither.    RP I'm pretty
sure it's not.

L


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Nov  6 20:14:04 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:14:04 -0600
Subject: more vowel weirdness
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.141404.0600.>

> >Dale Coye wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>If this is the feature I think you mean, I've noticed it from private school
> >>grads (Exeter, Andover, Lawrenceville, and others) as far back as the late
> >>70s.   A fronted first element-- almost as in RP. I always wondered how
> >>widespread it was.
> ><<<<<
> >
> >dInIs aens at rd:
> >>>>>>
> >Careful of its widespreadedness. Its source at the yuppie places you
> >mention is almost certainly RP (although I'd be happy to hear of other
> >theories), but back-vowel fronting is rampant in the American South and,
> >with slightly different pohonetic details, "Valley Girl," the latter
> >spreading like wildfire to the East. All these similar shifts may be
> >bumping heads in some places.
> ><<<<<
> >
> >As I've read RP described, and heard it, the first element of the diphthong
> >in "hope" is not a fronted [o] but its opposite, a backed [e] or
> >*unrounded* [o], with the IPA symbol called "ram's horns" or "baby gamma".
> >
> >-- Mark
>

> Laurence Horn wrote:

> Exactly.  You've put your finger on what I found unsatisfactory in
> the previous invocations of RP, which Ainsley's vowel didn't strike
> me as being at all reminiscent of.  Her vowel is indeed fronted,
> although I'm still not sure whether it's a symptom of southernness,
> private school pretentiousness, both, or neither.    RP I'm pretty
> sure it's not.

I agree that it is probably not a direct imitation of RP.  In an earlier e-mail, I
mentioned friends of mine from southern WV who have this feature, and they certainly were
not from the "private school" set.  There may be a historical element of Southern
pretentiousness in it -- a 1930s analogue to the burnout/redneck dichotomy (cf. T. Habick)
in Southern communities, with the "higher class" group aspiring to membership in country
clubs rather than to school-related goals.
DMLance


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Nov  6 20:24:50 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:24:50 -0600
Subject: double modals (was: fronted /oU/)
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.142450.0600.>

There was a lengthy discussion of double modals on ADS-L several years ago.  There's an
excellent ESL book -- THE GRAMMAR BOOK -- that has a thorough discussion of modals.
Modals may express possibility/probability ('might' in 'might could') and some kind of
social interaction or potential social contract such as expressing willingness etc. ("I
might could help you").  Double modals in everyday speech are not rare in Missouri or
Texas, but rather are used when the communicative situation calls for them.  Fussier
people might prefer to say "I may/might be able to help you," opting for the phrasal
modal, which tends to occur in second position when there are two.  There may be a
politeness feature to either the possibility or the social function.
DMLance

P2052 at AOL.COM wrote:

> I've never perceived a "politeness" function of these "serial modals."  In
> fact, I have sensed more of a "doubt" or "hesitancy" motive on the part of
> the speakers--a phenomenon quite similar to the ever-increasing pairing of
> "kinda" and "sorta," as in "I kinda (=kind of) sort a (=sort of) think I'll
> be able to do it."  These serial modals occur in the same context (Cf. I
> think I might could/can/would do it.)
>                                      PAT


From cbernstn at POSTOFFICE.MEMPHIS.EDU  Mon Nov  6 20:44:45 2000
From: cbernstn at POSTOFFICE.MEMPHIS.EDU (Cynthia Bernstein)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 14:44:45 -0600
Subject: double modals (was: fronted /oU/)
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.144445.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>> I've reprinted below the reference list for a current project of mine
>> on Southern US grammatical features.  Of particular relevance to
>> multiple modals are DiPaolo, Feagin, Fennell and Butters, Mishoe and
>> Montgomery, Montgomery (1998), Montgomery and Nagle, Nagle (1993).
>> The politeness of "might could" among at least some speakers of
>> Southern US English is well documented.
>
Cindy Bernstein
cbernstn at memphis.edu

>>
>>                            References
>>
>>
>> Atwood, E. Bagby.  1953.  A Survey of Verb Forms in the Eastern United
>> States.  Ann Arbor:
>> University of Michigan Press.
>>
>> Atwood, E. Bagby.  1962.  The Regional Vocabulary of Texas.  Austin:
>> University of Texas
>> Press.
>>
>> Axley, Lowry. 1927. "'You All' and 'We All' Again." American Speech 2:
>> 343-45.
>>
>> Axley, Lowry. 1929.  "One Word More on 'You All'." American Speech 4:
>> 347-51.
>>
>> Bailey, Beryl Loftman.  1966.  Jamaican Creole Syntax: A
>> Transformational Approach.
>> Cambridge:  Cambridge University Press.
>>
>> Bailey, Guy, and Jan Tillery.  1999.  "The Rutledge Effect:  The
>> Impact of Interviewers on Survey
>> Results in Linguistics."  American Speech 74: 389-402.
>>
>> Bailey, Guy, Tom Wikle, Jan Tillery, and Lori Sand.  1993.  "Some
>> Patterns of Linguistic
>> Diffusion."  Language Variation and Change 5: 359-90.
>>
>> Bean, Judith Mattson.  1991.  "The Evolution of Inchoatives:  Go To
>> and Get To."  The SECOL
>> Review 15:  69-86.
>>
>> Bernstein, Cynthia.  Forthcoming.  "Misunderstanding the American
>> South." American Speech.
>>
>> Bernstein, Cynthia, Thomas Nunnally, and Robin Sabino, eds. 1997.
>> Language Variety in the
>> South Revisited.  Tuscaloosa:  University of Alabama Press.
>>
>> Boertien, Harmon S.  1986.  "Constituent Structure of Double Modals."
>> Language Variety in the
>> South:  Perspectives in Black and White.  Ed. Michael B. Montgomery
>> and Guy Bailey.
>> Tuscaloosa:  University of Alabama Press.
>>
>> Burkett, Eva M.  1978.  American English Dialects in Literature.
>> Metuchen, N.J. : Scarecrow
>> Press.
>>
>> Butters, Ronald R., and S. Campbell Aycock. 1987. "More on Singular
>> y?all." American Speech
>> 62:  191-92.
>>
>> Cassidy, Frederic G.  1961.  Jamaica Talk.  London:  Macmillan.
>>
>> Cassidy, Frederic G., and Joan Houston Hall, eds. 1991. Dictionary of
>> American Regional
>> English.  Volume 2:  D-H.  Cambridge, Mass. : Belknap Press of Harvard
>> University Press.
>>
>> Ching, Marvin. 1987. "How Fixed is fixin? to?" American Speech 62:
>> 332-345.
>>
>> Christian, Donna, Walt Wolfram, and Nanjo Dube.  1988.  Variation and
>> Change in
>> Geographically Isolated Communities:  Appalachian English and Ozark
>> English.  Publication of
>> the American Dialect Society (PADS) 74.  Tuscaloosa:  University of
>> Alabama Press.
>>
>> Christie, Pauline.  1991.  "Modality in Jamaican Creole."  Verb Phrase
>> Patterns in Black English
>> and Creole.  Ed. Walter F. Edwards and Donald Winford, 223-39.
>> Detroit:  Wayne State
>> University Press.
>>
>> Chtareva, Anguelina.  [1999].  "The Use of Double Modals in Memphis,
>> TN."  Unpublished ms.
>>
>> Cunningham, Irma Aloyce Ewing.  1970.  "A Syntactic Analysis of Sea
>> Island Creole ("Gullah").
>> Diss., U of Michigan.
>>
>> Cunningham, Irma Aloyce Ewing.  1992.  A Syntactic Analysis of Sea
>> Island Creole.  Publication
>> of the American Dialect Society (PADS) 75.  Tuscaloosa:  University of
>> Alabama Press.
>>
>> Di Paolo, Marianna. 1989.  "Double Modals as Single Lexical Items."
>> American Speech 64: 195-
>> 224.
>>
>> Fasold, Ralph.  1981.  "The Relation Between Black and White Speech in
>> the South."  American
>> Speech 56:  163-89.
>>
>> Feagin, Crawford.  1979.  Variation and Change in Alabama English.
>> Washington, DC:
>> Georgetown University Press.
>>
>> Fennell, Barbara, and Ronald Butters.  1996.  "Historical and
>> Contemporary Distribution of
>> Double Modals in English." 1996.  Focus on the USA. Ed. Edgar
>> Schneider, 265-88.  Amsterdam,
>> Philadelphia:  John Benjamins.
>>
>> Garber, Aubrey.  1976.  Mountain-ese: Basic Grammar for Appalachia.
>> Radford, VA:
>> Commonwealth Press.
>>
>> Goffman, Erving.  1967.  Interaction Ritual:  Essays in Face-to-Face
>> Behavior.  Chicago: Aldine
>> Publishing Company.
>>
>> Hazen, Kirk.  2000.  Identity and Ethnicity in the Rural South:  A
>> Sociolinguistic View Through
>> Past and Present be.  Publication of the American Dialect Society
>> (PADS) 83.  Tuscaloosa:
>> University of Alabama Press.
>>
>> Hendrickson, Robert.  1986  American Talk.  New York:  Viking.
>>
>> Hendrickson, Robert.  1993.  Whistlin? Dixie:  A Dictionary of
>> Southern Expressions.  New
>> York:  Facts on File.
>>
>> Herman, Lewis Helmar.  1947.  Manual of American Dialects.  Chicago:
>> Ziff-Davis Publishish
>> Company.
>>
>> Holm, John A., with Alison W. Shilling.  1982.  Dictionary of Bahamian
>> English.  Cold Spring,
>> NY:  Lexik House Publishers.
>>
>> Hopper, Paul J., and Elizabeth Closs Traugott.  1993.
>> Grammaticalization.  Cambridge:
>> Cambridge University Press.
>>
>> Labov, William.  1972.  Sociolinguistic Patterns.  Philadelphia:
>> University of Pennsylvania Press.
>>
>> Labov, William, Paul Cohen, Clarence Robins, and John Lewis.  1968.  A
>> Study of the Non-
>> Standard English of Negro and Puerto Rican Speakers in New York City.
>> Cooperative Research
>> Project #3288.  Washington:  Office of Education, Department of
>> Health, Education, and
>> Welfare.
>>
>> Lipski, John.  1993.  "Y?all in American English."  English World-Wide
>> 14: 23-56.
>>
>> Little Greta, and Michael Montgomery.  1994.  Centennial Usage
>> Studies.  Publication of the
>> American Dialect Society (PADS) 78.  Tuscaloosa:  University of
>> Alabama Press.
>>
>> Maynor, Natalie. 1996. "The Pronoun Y?all." Journal of English
>> Linguistics 24: 288-94.
>>
>> Maynor, Natalie. Forthcoming. "Battle of the Pronouns: Y?all versus
>> You-Guys." American
>> Speech.
>>
>> McDavid, Raven I., Jr.  1958.  "The Dialects of American English."
>> Ch. 9 in The Structure of
>> American English by Francis W. Nelson.  New York:  Ronald Press Co.
>>
>> McMillan, James and Michael B. Montgomery.  1989.  Annotated
>> Bibliography of Southern
>> American English.  Tuscaloosa:  U of Alabama P.
>>
>> Mishoe, Margaret, and Michael Montgomery.  1994.  "The Pragmatics of
>> Multiple Modal
>> Variation in North and South Carolina." American Speech 69:1-29.
>>
>> Mitchell, Steve. 1976.  How to Speak Southern. New York: Bantam.
>>
>> Mitchell, Steve. 1980.  More How to Speak Southern. New York: Bantam.
>>
>> Montgomery, Michael B. 1980. "Inchoative Verbs in East Tennessee
>> English." SECOL Bulletin 4:
>> 77-85.
>>
>> Montgomery, Michael B. 1989. "A Note on ya?ll."  American Speech 64:
>> 273-75.
>>
>> Montgomery, Michael B. 1992. "The Etymology of Y?all".  Old English
>> and New. Ed. Joan H.
>> Hall, Nick Doane, and Dick Ringer, 356-69.  New York:  Garland.
>>
>> Montgomery, Michael B. 1996.  "The Future of Southern American
>> English." The SECOL Review
>> 20: 1-24.
>>
>> Montgomery, Michael B.  1998.  "Multiple Modals in LAGS and LAMSAS."
>> From the Gulf
>> States and Beyond:  The Legacy and Lee Pederson and LAGS. Ed. Michael
>> B. Montgomery and
>> Thomas E. Nunnally.  90-122.  Tuscaloosa:  University of Alabama
>> Press.
>>
>> Montgomery, Michael B.  2000.  "Inchoative Verbs in Appalachian
>> English"  Southeastern
>> Conference on Linguistics.  Oxford, Mississippi. April 6-8.
>>
>> Montgomery, Michael B., and Guy Bailey.  1986.  Language Variety in
>> the South:  Perspectives
>> in Black and White.  Tuscaloosa:  The U of Alabama P.
>> .
>> Montgomery, Michael B., and Stephen J. Nagle 1993. "Double Modals in
>> Scotland and the
>> Southern United States: Trans-Atlantic Inheritance or Independent
>> Development?" Folia
>> Linguistica Historica 14:91-107.
>>
>> Montgomery, Michael B., and Thomas E. Nunnally, eds.  1998.  From the
>> Gulf States and
>> Beyond:  The Legacy of Lee Pederson and LAGS.  Tuscaloosa:  The U of
>> Alabama P.
>>
>> Morrison, Estelle Rees. 1928. "'You all' Again." American Speech 4:
>> 54-55.
>>
>> Nagle, Stephen J. 1993.  "Double Modals in Early English."  Historical
>> Linguistics 1989: Papers
>> from the Proceedings of the 9th International Conference on Historical
>> Linguistics.  Ed. Henk
>> Aertsen and Robert J. Jeffers, 363-70.  Amsterdam:  John Benjamins.
>>
>> Palmer, Frank Robert.  1990.  Modality and the English Modals.  New
>> York:  Longman.
>>
>> Patton, Douglas W. K.  1999.  "Y?all in America." Southern Living.
>> March: 210.
>>
>> Pederson, Lee, et al., eds.  1986-92.  Linguistic Atlas of the Gulf
>> States.  7 vols.  Athens, GA:
>> University of Georgia Press.
>>
>> Perkins, T. W. 1931. "'You All' Again." American Speech 6: 304-05.
>>
>> Preston, Dennis. 1997.  "The South:  The Touchstone."  Language
>> Variety in the South
>> Revisited.  Ed. Cynthia Bernstein, Thomas Nunnally, and Robin Sabino.
>> Tuscaloosa:  U of
>> Alabama P, 311-51.
>>
>> Randolph, Vance, and George P. Wilson.  1953.  Down in the Holler:  A
>> Gallery of Ozark
>> Folkspeech.  Norman:  U of Oklahoma P.
>>
>> Reed, John Shelton and Dale Volberg Reed. 1996.  1001 Things Everyone
>> Should Know about
>> the South.  New York:  Doubleday.
>>
>> Richardson, Gina. 1984. "Can y?all Function as a Singular Pronoun in
>> Southern Dialect?"
>> Amercican Speech 59: 51-59.
>>
>> Rickford, John.  1986.  "Social Contact and Linguistic Diffusion:
>> Hiberno-English and New
>> World Black English." Language 52:  245-90.
>>
>> Smith, M. A. Sharwood.  1999.  Mood and Modality.
>> <http://www.let.uu.nl/~slr/gram4/ >.
>> Published online 2 April.
>>
>> Spencer, Nancy.  1975.  "Singular Y?all."  American Speech 4: 54-55.
>>
>> Tillery, Jan, Tom Wikle, and Guy Bailey.  2000. "The Nationalization
>> of a Southernism."
>> Journal of English Linguistics 28:  280-94.
>>
>> Traugott, Elizabeth Closs.  1972.  History of English Syntax:  A
>> Transformational Approach to
>> the History of English Sentence Structure.  New York, Holt, Rinehart
>> and Winston.
>>
>> Viereck, Wolfgang. 1988. "Invariant be in an Unnoticed Source of
>> American Early Black
>> English." American Speech 63: 291-303.
>>
>> Visser, F. Th.  1963-73.  An historical syntax of the English
>> Language.  3 vols, + 1 part.  Leiden:
>> Brill.
>>
>> Vowles, Guy R. 1944.  "A Few Observations on Southern 'You-All'."
>> American Speech 19:146-
>> 47.
>>
>> Wentworth, Harold.  1944.  American Dialect Dictionary.  New York:
>> Crowell.
>>
>> Wolfram, Walt, and Donna Christian.  1976.  Appalachian Speech.
>> Washington, DC:  Center for
>> Applied Linguistics.
>>
>> Wolfram, Walt, and Ralph Fasold.  1974.  The Study of Social Dialects
>> in American English.
>> Englewood Cliffs, NJ:  Prentice-Hall.
>>
>> Wolfram, Walt, Kirk Hazen, and Natalie Schilling-Estes.  1999.
>> Dialect Change and
>> Maintenance on the Outer Banks.  Publication of the American Dialect
>> Society (PADS) 81.
>> Tuscaloosa:  University of Alabama Press.
>>
>> Wolfram, Walt, and Natalie Schilling-Estes 1998.  American English:
>> Dialects and Variation.
>> Oxford and Malden, MA:  Blackwell.
>>
>> Wright, Joseph.  1898-1905.  The English Dialect Dictionary.  London.
>>
>> Zeigler, Mary.  1997.  "Ain No Such Word:  A Dictionary History of
>> 'Fixin to'.  Southeastern
>> Conference on Linguistics (SECOL), Charlotte, NC,  5 April.
>>
>> Zeigler, Mary.  1998.  "The Grammaticalization of 'Fixin to'."
>> Southeastern Conference on
>> Linguistics (SECOL), Lafayette, LA, 3 March.
>
>
>


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Mon Nov  6 21:03:09 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 16:03:09 -0500
Subject: ads schedule
In-Reply-To: <908477258gbarrett@monickels.com>
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.160309.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I still can't access americandialect.org, although I can access
http://us.english.uga.edu/ads/  -- however at that site,
the pdf of the newsletter doesn't exist at that server.

Does a copy of the schedule currently exist anywhere on the web?

--- Steve K.


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Mon Nov  6 22:11:05 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 23:11:05 +0100
Subject: ads schedule
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.231105.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

On lundi 6 novembre 2000 22:03, Steve K. <stevek at SHORE.NET> wrote:
>I still can't access americandialect.org, although I can access
>http://us.english.uga.edu/ads/  -- however at that site,
>the pdf of the newsletter doesn't exist at that server.

The problem is that the download link is not coded for http://us.english.uga.edu/ads/
 but for http://www.americandialect.org.

Use this:

http://us.english.uga.edu/ads/NADS32-3.pdf

I, Eric at UGA at others are still working on the DNS problem. Hang in there.


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Mon Nov  6 22:12:00 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 17:12:00 EST
Subject: NADS 32.3
Message-ID: <MON.6.NOV.2000.171200.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/4/00 11:29:13 AM, mlee303 at YAHOO.COM writes:

<< margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu >>

Dear Professor Lee,

Thank you for sending your new e-mail address.  We have amended our files,
and though NADS 32.3 has already gone to press, please be assured that your
information will be correct in future issues.

Sincerely,
Erin Klee   =-)
Administrative Assistant
American Dialect Society


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Tue Nov  7 06:04:15 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 01:04:15 -0500
Subject: Quiet...
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.010415.0500.>

Sorry, the address missed the List.

Thomas Paikeday wrote:
>
> Malayalam has much to recommend itself as a Dravidian language, though
> the vocabulary is very much Sanskritized. The alphabet is an exact copy
> of Devanagari.
>
> A free sample of spoken Malayalam is available to anyone calling me
> between 9 and 5 Eastern time at (905)371-2065. I learnt it from my
> mother.
>
> Tom Paikeday
>
> Mark Odegard wrote:
> >
> > Considering this is an Austronesian language, . . .
> > . . . I have NEVER said it aloud to another human being, and obviously, have never heard it spoken.


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Tue Nov  7 13:28:26 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 08:28:26 -0500
Subject: ads schedule
In-Reply-To: <908913357gbarrett@monickels.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.082826.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 6 Nov 2000, Grant Barrett wrote:

> http://us.english.uga.edu/ads/NADS32-3.pdf

Perfecto! Thanks.

--- Steve K.


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Nov  7 15:18:44 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:18:44 -0500
Subject: Nonplussed = unfazed?
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.101844.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In today's Word Spy, I pointed out that reporter Gina Kolata of The New York
Times uses the word "nonplussed" incorrectly in the following citation:

"Yet he was nonplussed by the number of attacks on that single day last
week. 'I think it's fairly typical,' he said."

Clearly she's using it here to mean "unfazed" and I pointed out that
although this is a common error, the correct meaning is "bewildered; at a
loss." One subscriber has taken me to task on this. Calling me a
"prescriptivist" (ouch!), he said that the "unfazed" meaning is now
descriptive of actual usage, particularly in American English. None of my
dictionaries mention (much less sanction) this usage. I know it's a common
error, but I still insist that it's an error. Is usage winning this battle?

Paul
http://www.mcfedries.com/


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 03:41:51 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:41:51 +0800
Subject: Nonplussed = unfazed?
In-Reply-To: <011301c048ce$051810e0$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.114151.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In today's Word Spy, I pointed out that reporter Gina Kolata of The New York
>Times uses the word "nonplussed" incorrectly in the following citation:
>
>"Yet he was nonplussed by the number of attacks on that single day last
>week. 'I think it's fairly typical,' he said."
>
>Clearly she's using it here to mean "unfazed" and I pointed out that
>although this is a common error, the correct meaning is "bewildered; at a
>loss." One subscriber has taken me to task on this. Calling me a
>"prescriptivist" (ouch!), he said that the "unfazed" meaning is now
>descriptive of actual usage, particularly in American English. None of my
>dictionaries mention (much less sanction) this usage. I know it's a common
>error, but I still insist that it's an error. Is usage winning this battle?
>
>Paul
>http://www.mcfedries.com/

We had a discussion on this exactly two years ago.  Since I'm not
sure what the current searchability status of the archive is, I copy
this discussion below.


Larry
==================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:50:56 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Larry Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
Subject:      two-stage reanalysis ('nonplussed')

A recent subhead (10/26/98) in the Yale Daily News read as follows:

         Citing frequent violence as the reason,
         most students remained unpulsed by
         Friday's shootout

Now, of course, "unpulsed" is a neologism; unsurprisingly, nary a cite on
Nexis, and I doubt it will catch on.  (Let's all try to control our
disappointment.)
But what its use in this context presupposes, as some of my colleagues here
pointed out, is a prior reanalysis of "nonplussed" (presumably, the source
for this mishearing) as meaning 'unfazed' or 'evincing indifference'.  The
standard and only official meaning of "nonplussed"--as listed in every
dictionary I checked--is 'puzzled, bewildered, baffled', not 'indifferent'
or 'unfazed'.  (Similarly for the verb, "to nonplus".) But for me, the
latter meaning is if anything the more salient of the two.  One of my
colleagues (older than me--and I'm 53--and like me originally from NYC)
shares my lexical entry, but my other colleagues were, shall we say,
totally nonplussed by it.  (In their sense, not mine.)
         Are any of you familiar with this reanalysis, or any account of it?
It would interesting to know if there's any regional dimension; it
certainly doesn't SEEM like a feature of New York City English--although
one might argue that New Yorkers learn early on to show a poker face when
baffled or puzzled, so it's easy to make up a story justifying the meaning
shift.

Larry
================================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:59:18 -0800
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: "A. Maberry" <maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: two-stage reanalysis ('nonplussed')

I see/hear it used in the sense of "unfazed" much more frequently than
"bewildered"--so much so that if I did hear it in a context which had to
mean "bewildered", I would probably go look it up in a dictionary.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu
=========================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:43:50 -0600
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Jessie Emerson <jessie at SIRSI.COM>
Subject:      Re: two-stage reanalysis ('nonplussed')

Bewildered, baffled are the only meanings I've ever known for nonplussed.
I would never think it meant indifferent.

Jessie (Alabama)
=========================
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:11:45 -0500
Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
From: Grant Barrett <gbarrett at dfjp.com>
Subject:      Re: two-stage reanalysis ('nonplussed')

I seem to have the two apparently incompatible meanings for
nonplussed in my head, and didn't realize it until you brought it up.
The reason I say "apparently," however, is that non-plussed always
seemed to evoke more an idea of a physical state of a person rather
than an emotional one.
A person who is nonplussed (confused, bewildered) has exactly same
blank look (by my definition) as a person who is nonplussed (unfazed,
evincing indifference).
Grant Barrett
gbarrett at dfjp.com




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From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 16:40:30 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:40:30 EST
Subject: booking
In-Reply-To: <19DA7294E6C@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.114030.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        From the [New York] Daily News, November 7, 2000, p. 21, col. 4, in
a story reporting on an automobile accident:

        . . . Joe Hunt said he heard a crash and saw Moore's car fly by out
of the corner of his eye.  "He was really booking, you know, going
real fast," Hunt said.

HDAS (I happily follow the lead of Jesse Sheidlower in dropping the
initials of the infamous publishing house formerly associated with
this dictionary) has booking, to go fast, between 1974 and 1984.  The
word is alive and well -- in New York, at least.

I note that in 1969 a California participant in DARE completed the
sentence "Something that is left undecided or unfinished: perhaps we
had better ____" with the words "book it."  Is there a connection
here?  One leaves something unfinished because one is in a hurry to
do something else?  I am also put in mind of a stanza from an old
country blues called "Keys to the Highway".  I've not heard this for
many years, and my very limited blues CD collection doesn't include
it, so I can't refesh my memory.  Are there any blues hounds in our
coven?  I recall the version I knew to have been recorded by Big
Bill Broonzy, probably in the 1930s or 1940s.  In any event, as I
recall, the stanza goes:  "I've got the keys to the highway, I'm
booked up and bound to go, I'm gone to leave here running, cause
walking is most too slow."  Here there is a connection between being
booked up and the desire for speed.

Neither the Dictionary of American English nor Dictionary of
Americanisms has book as a verb.

GAT


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Nov  7 17:12:59 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:12:59 -0500
Subject: Nonplussed = unfazed?
In-Reply-To: <011301c048ce$051810e0$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.121259.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In today's Word Spy, I pointed out that reporter Gina Kolata of The New York
>Times uses the word "nonplussed" incorrectly in the following citation:
>
>"Yet he was nonplussed by the number of attacks on that single day last
>week. 'I think it's fairly typical,' he said."
>
>Clearly she's using it here to mean "unfazed" and I pointed out that
>although this is a common error, the correct meaning is "bewildered; at a
>loss." One subscriber has taken me to task on this. Calling me a
>"prescriptivist" (ouch!), he said that the "unfazed" meaning is now
>descriptive of actual usage, particularly in American English. None of my
>dictionaries mention (much less sanction) this usage. I know it's a common
>error, but I still insist that it's an error. Is usage winning this battle?

One need not worry about the label "prescriptivist". A poll of the
ignorant, illiterate, and careless -- which of course defines the word's
true meaning -- will indicate that "prescriptivist" is extremely
nonspecific but most likely has something to do with a pharmacy.

As for the reference to "American" usage ... maybe the anti-pharmaceutical
subscriber would be happy if the word "error" were universally replaced
with "Americanism". Instead of saying "I never make an error; that's my
idiolect" I could say "I never make an error; I'm an American".

-- Doug Wilson


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Nov  7 17:29:21 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:29:21 -0500
Subject: booking
In-Reply-To: <1A9672E4FDB@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.122921.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've heard and used this for years in NC.  I've no idea where I got it, and
I've no idea of its origins.  All I know is, I've got to go vote, so I
better get bookin'.

bob

> From: GEORGE THOMPSON <thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU>
> Organization: NYU Libraries
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:40:30 EST
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: booking
>
> From the [New York] Daily News, November 7, 2000, p. 21, col. 4, in
> a story reporting on an automobile accident:
>
> . . . Joe Hunt said he heard a crash and saw Moore's car fly by out
> of the corner of his eye.  "He was really booking, you know, going
> real fast," Hunt said.
>
> HDAS (I happily follow the lead of Jesse Sheidlower in dropping the
> initials of the infamous publishing house formerly associated with
> this dictionary) has booking, to go fast, between 1974 and 1984.  The
> word is alive and well -- in New York, at least.
>
> I note that in 1969 a California participant in DARE completed the
> sentence "Something that is left undecided or unfinished: perhaps we
> had better ____" with the words "book it."  Is there a connection
> here?  One leaves something unfinished because one is in a hurry to
> do something else?  I am also put in mind of a stanza from an old
> country blues called "Keys to the Highway".  I've not heard this for
> many years, and my very limited blues CD collection doesn't include
> it, so I can't refesh my memory.  Are there any blues hounds in our
> coven?  I recall the version I knew to have been recorded by Big
> Bill Broonzy, probably in the 1930s or 1940s.  In any event, as I
> recall, the stanza goes:  "I've got the keys to the highway, I'm
> booked up and bound to go, I'm gone to leave here running, cause
> walking is most too slow."  Here there is a connection between being
> booked up and the desire for speed.
>
> Neither the Dictionary of American English nor Dictionary of
> Americanisms has book as a verb.
>
> GAT


From mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Nov  7 19:32:18 2000
From: mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko Mufwene)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:32:18 -0800
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.113218.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


Can anybody paraphrase the following construction:

       But he's gone and drowned his dinner in syrup.

It occurs in Harper Lee's TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD in the following context:

    Atticus shook his head at me again. "But he's gone and drowned his dinner
in syrup," I protested. "He's poured it all over --"

A southern student in my "Dialect Voices in Literature" class suggested that
"gone and" is equivalent to PERFECT "done" in this construction. However,
another southern student said she was not familiar with it. My
African-American
student had no clue either. The rest of white American students in the class
had no idea. Can anybody on this list enlighten us?

Sali.


**********************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
**********************************************************
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From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Nov  7 17:52:06 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:52:06 +0000
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <200011071730.eA7HUF007449@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.175206.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Can anybody paraphrase the following construction:
>
>        But he's gone and drowned his dinner in syrup.
>
>It occurs in Harper Lee's TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD in the following context:
>
>     Atticus shook his head at me again. "But he's gone and drowned
>his dinner in syrup," I protested. "He's poured it all over --"
>
>A southern student in my "Dialect Voices in Literature" class
>suggested that "gone and" is equivalent to PERFECT "done" in this
>construction. However, another southern student said she was not
>familiar with it. My African-American student had no clue either.
>The rest of white American students in the class had no idea. Can
>anybody on this list enlighten us?

Your question's a bit ambiguous.  Are the other students unfamiliar
with "gone and" or "done"?  The former seems unbelievable.

Are they familiar with "went and...?"  Geoff Sampson has suggested
that the perfect has mostly died in American English (I think he
exaggerates;  I also think he's talking about particular uses of the
perfect and not the form per se.  He thinks that the difference
between the past and the perfect is dying.)

Lynne

--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 17:52:27 2000
From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:52:27 -0500
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <200011071730.eA7HUF007449@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.125227.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    It does mean that he did "drown his dinner in syrup."  The
connotation is that he did something wrong, as in

Can you believe that he just went and wrote that letter without telling me?
That cat of yours has gone and destroyed my couch.

    I'm more used to hearing it as "...went and...," obviously, but I
have heard "gone" too (growing up in southern Illinois, rather rural).
This construction was mainly used to discuss someone doing something bad.

    Johanna, who wants UPS to stop by and pick up her defective monitor

Excerpts from mail: 7-Nov-100 Gone and V-ed by Salikoko Mufwene at MIDWAY.
> Can anybody paraphrase the following construction:
>
>        But he's gone and drowned his dinner in syrup.
>
> It occurs in Harper Lee's TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD in the following context:
>
>     Atticus shook his head at me again. "But he's gone and drowned his dinner
> in syrup," I protested. "He's poured it all over --"
>
> A southern student in my "Dialect Voices in Literature" class suggested that
> "gone and" is equivalent to PERFECT "done" in this construction. However,
> another southern student said she was not familiar with it. My
> African-American
> student had no clue either. The rest of white American students in the class
> had no idea. Can anybody on this list enlighten us?


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Tue Nov  7 18:26:19 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 13:26:19 -0500
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <8u245PC00Ui504CVA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.132619.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Johanna N Franklin wrote:

>     I'm more used to hearing it as "...went and...," obviously, but I
> have heard "gone" too (growing up in southern Illinois, rather rural).
> This construction was mainly used to discuss someone doing something bad.

"Went and..." (as well as "gone and...") sounds very natural to me,
too. (mid-Michigan rural/industrial hybrid).

-- Steve K.


From mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Nov  7 20:20:52 2000
From: mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko Mufwene)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:20:52 -0800
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <a05001906b62df0add4cf@[139.184.48.65]>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.122052.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 05:52 PM 11/7/2000 +0000, Lynne Murphy wrote:

>>A southern student in my "Dialect Voices in Literature" class
>>suggested that "gone and" is equivalent to PERFECT "done" in this
>>construction. However, another southern student said she was not
>>familiar with it. My African-American student had no clue either.
>>The rest of white American students in the class had no idea. Can
>>anybody on this list enlighten us?
>
>Your question's a bit ambiguous.  Are the other students unfamiliar
>with "gone and" or "done"?  The former seems unbelievable.
>
They are all unfamiliar with the "gone and" construction.

Sali.


**********************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
**********************************************************
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From mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Nov  7 20:25:09 2000
From: mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko Mufwene)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:25:09 -0800
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <8u245PC00Ui504CVA0@andrew.cmu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.122509.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:52 PM 11/7/2000 -0500, Johanna N. Franklin wrote:

>    It does mean that he did "drown his dinner in syrup."  The
>connotation is that he did something wrong, as in
>
>Can you believe that he just went and wrote that letter without telling me?
>That cat of yours has gone and destroyed my couch.
>
>    I'm more used to hearing it as "...went and...," obviously, but I
>have heard "gone" too (growing up in southern Illinois, rather rural).
>This construction was mainly used to discuss someone doing something bad.
>
>    Johanna, who wants UPS to stop by and pick up her defective monitor
>
Can we assume safely here that "gone" loses the literal meaning of MOTION? A
student thought the MOTION-less interpretation must be the
case--reminiscent of
"camouflaged 'come'" I think.

Sali.

**********************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
**********************************************************
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From johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 18:44:40 2000
From: johannaf+ at ANDREW.CMU.EDU (Johanna N Franklin)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 13:44:40 -0500
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <200011071823.eA7IND024291@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.134440.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    I don't think there's any hint of motion here.  It doesn't sound
unreasonable for someone to be sitting at a desk doing paperwork, and
then groan and explain that he "just went and signed in the wrong box."

    Johanna

Excerpts from mail: 7-Nov-100 Re: Gone and V-ed by Salikoko Mufwene at MIDWAY.
> Can we assume safely here that "gone" loses the literal meaning of MOTION? A
> student thought the MOTION-less interpretation must be the
> case--reminiscent of
> "camouflaged 'come'" I think.


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov  7 18:55:05 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 10:55:05 -0800
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <200011071823.eA7IND024291@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.105505.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Like Lynne, I find it incredible that any speaker of American English would
be unfamiliar with the "gone and..." construction. I doubt that I use it
often myself, but it's certainly available in my active vocabulary.  And
it's common enough in books (though probably only in dialog).  Have these
students ever read a novel?!

Certainly this use of "go" doesn't refer to motion.  It's something like
"proceed to," except that, as Johanna and others have indicated, the verb
it's used with denotes something undesirable or disapproved of by the
speaker.  As far as I know, the full conjugation of "go" can be used in
this way.  (E.g., to a child, "You WOULD go and eat ice cream before
dinner, wouldn't you!"  Or, "So what does he do?  He goes and walks through
a mud puddle in his brand new shoes!")

Peter Mc.

--On Tue, Nov 7, 2000 12:25 PM -0800 Salikoko Mufwene
<mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU> wrote:

> At 12:52 PM 11/7/2000 -0500, Johanna N. Franklin wrote:
>
>>    It does mean that he did "drown his dinner in syrup."  The
>> connotation is that he did something wrong, as in
>>
>> Can you believe that he just went and wrote that letter without telling
>> me? That cat of yours has gone and destroyed my couch.
>>
>>    I'm more used to hearing it as "...went and...," obviously, but I
>> have heard "gone" too (growing up in southern Illinois, rather rural).
>> This construction was mainly used to discuss someone doing something bad.
>>
>>    Johanna, who wants UPS to stop by and pick up her defective monitor
>>
> Can we assume safely here that "gone" loses the literal meaning of
> MOTION? A student thought the MOTION-less interpretation must be the
> case--reminiscent of "camouflaged 'come'" I think.
>
> Sali.
>
> **********************************************************
> Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
> University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
> Department of Linguistics
> 1010 East 59th Street
> Chicago, IL 60637
> http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
> **********************************************************



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Nov  7 19:00:46 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:00:46 -0500
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <200011071730.eA7HUF007449@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.140046.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Can anybody paraphrase the following construction:
>
>        But he's gone and drowned his dinner in syrup.
>
>It occurs in Harper Lee's TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD in the following context:
>
>     Atticus shook his head at me again. "But he's gone and drowned his
> dinner in syrup," I protested. "He's poured it all over --"

I can give a near-equivalent: "But he's upped and drowned his dinner in syrup."

Another: "But he's taken and drowned his dinner in syrup."

"Go and V", "take and V", and "up and V" are not absolutely
interchangeable, but I perceive each to be equivalent to an intensified or
emphatic form of "V" -- probably just by virtue of lengthening or elaboration.

I think the "go" is motionless, similar to the first verb in "I'm going to
go there some day", with the connotation of willfulness (but not
universally, and sometimes rather sarcastically perhaps). Perhaps one might
compare "But he's gone so far as to drown his dinner in syrup."

"Take and" tends to imply, I think, some instrument (although not
universally): in this case like "He's taken the syrup and drowned his
dinner in it."

"Up and" has, I think, a flavor of sudden arousal, like "rise up" or "start
up": e.g., "He didn't say anything, he just up[ped] and ran."

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  7 19:02:12 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:02:12 EST
Subject: JAZZ (or, Ken Burns gets it wrong!)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.140212.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

JAZZ--A HISTORY OF AMERICA'S MUSIC (2000)
by Geoffrey C. Ward and Ken Burns

Pg. 65:
   _JASS, JASZ, JAZZ_
   As early as 1906, a San Francisco sportswriter was using the word to
denote pep and enthusiasm on the baseball field, and there were those who
thought it might have originally come from a West African word for speeding
things up.  But most authorities believe that the term, like the music, came
from New Orleans--from the jasmine perfume allegedly favored by the city's
prostitutes, or from "jezebel," a common nineteenth-century term for a
prostitute, or as a synonym for sexual intercourse in Storyville, where some
brothels were said to have been called "jay'n houses."  "The original meaning
of jazz was procreation," says the trumpet player Wynton Marsalis, "you can't
get deeper or more profound than that unless you're contemplating the
Creator."


   EVERY LINE OF THIS IS WRONG!!
   AHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
   1906?  Try 1913!
   A small error?  Ken Burns has devoted years to his documentary, JAZZ.
This is something he's gotta know cold!  What does he do?  He copies this
error from a book!  Does he call up the OED to even ask about "jazz"?  NO!
   His brother, Ken Burns, is filming several more hours of NEW YORK and has
yet to contact me about "the Big Apple."  It must run in the family.
   Most authorities--actually, almost all authorities, do NOT believe that
the word "jazz" comes from New Orleans.  It's very clear that it was
popularized in Chicago, and the word got there from San Francisco.  Bert
Kelly's name isn't even mentioned, but he helped to bring "jazz" to Chicago.
   Louis Armstrong lived in New Orleans, and it's documented that he first
heard the term used by someone from Chicago.  He'd never heard "jazz" in New
Orleans, even though he'd been playing the music.
   Ken Burns doesn't know this!
   Who does he consult on the meaning of the word "jazz"?  Wynton Marsalis!
Has Wynton done any studies published studies on the word?  No!  But he, you
know, knows "jazz."  For example: Would you ask a modern baseball player
about "baseball," and forget about George Thompson's work on the term?  No,
you'd go with asking the scholar.  But the Burns boys don't do this!
   Amazing!
   At least the documentary won't be used in schools to pass these errors on
to young kids...

(OFF TOPIC:  OED contributor and ADS member David Shulman is right here.  The
CBS 60 MINUTES crew filmed him today, and they'll film him tomorrow in the
Carnegie Deli.--ed.)

--Barry Popik


From e-gregory at TAMU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 18:54:51 2000
From: e-gregory at TAMU.EDU (Elizabeth Gregory)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:54:51 -0600
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.125451.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's my attempt, solely as a native Alabamian (b. 1962, Montgomery), at this:

I'm not sure that the construction "gone and" is equivalent to perfect "done." To me, it indicates Scout's surprise and disgust with Walter Cunningham's application of syrup to his food. The way I interpret it, the construction acts as a kind of intensifer, reflecting the speaker's bad opinion of the action by imputing a certain intentionality, flagrancy, or folly to the actor.

For example, Scout could simply have said, "But he's drowned his dinner in syrup," which would have indicated merely surprise.

Instead, she's disgusted and says, "But he's gone and drowned . . .," implying that Walter intentionally committed this breach of dinner-guest protocol.

Now, if she were really outraged, she might have said, "But he's hauled off and drowned . . .," implying that Walter flagrantly, defiantly poured syrup all over his food. But really this is something I believe I've heard only men and boys say.

Of course, Scout should really have said _none_ of these things . . .

FWIW
Elizabeth Gregory


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 06:07:57 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:07:57 +0800
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <200011071823.eA7IND024282@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.140757.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:20 PM -0800 11/7/00, Salikoko Mufwene wrote:
>At 05:52 PM 11/7/2000 +0000, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>
>>>A southern student in my "Dialect Voices in Literature" class
>>>suggested that "gone and" is equivalent to PERFECT "done" in this
>>>construction. However, another southern student said she was not
>>>familiar with it. My African-American student had no clue either.
>>>The rest of white American students in the class had no idea. Can
>>>anybody on this list enlighten us?
>>
>>Your question's a bit ambiguous.  Are the other students unfamiliar
>>with "gone and" or "done"?  The former seems unbelievable.
>>
>They are all unfamiliar with the "gone and" construction.
>
>Sali.
>
Weird.  There's even an extremely popular cross-over pop/country song
from a couple of years ago by Shenia Twain about someone who's "gone
'n' done it".  No literal motion involved; I've repressed it, but the
"it" was probably falling in love.  Anyone remember?  Oh wait, the
internet.  Let's see...Here it is.  (Enough [gone and done it]s for
everyone in Sali's class to have one.)

http://www.shania.com/cool-3.htm (if you want to see her preparing to sing)
LOVE GETS ME EVERY TIME


                                       Written by Twain/Lange

                                       Life was goin' great
                                       Love was gonna have to wait
                                       Was in no hurry -- had no worries
                                       Stayin' single was the plan
                                       Didn't need a steady man
                                       Had it covered -- 'til I dicovered

                                       Bridge:
                                       That love gets me every time
                                       My heart changed my mind
                                       I gol' darn gone and done it

                                       Chorus:
                                       Gone and done it (gone and done it)
                                       Guess I fell in love (gone and done it)
                                       Must have been the way he
walked (gone and done it)
                                       Or his sweet sweet talk (gone
and done it)
                                       I guess I -- gol' darn gone and done it

                                       I was quite content
                                       Just a-payin' my own rent
                                       It was my place -- I needed my space
                                       I was free to shop around
                                       In no rush to settle down
                                       I had it covered -- 'til I discovered

                                       (Bridge)
                                       (Chorus)
                                       (Bridge)

                                       Chorus: Gone and done it (gone
and done it)
                                       Guess I fell in love (gone and done it)
                                       Must have been the way he
walked (gone and done it)
                                       Or his sweet sweet talk (gone
and done it)
                                       It's in the way he calls my
name (gone and done it)
                                       I know I'll never be the same
(gone and done it)

                                       (Bridge)

                                       Thought I had it covered
                                       Life was going great
                                       Well I gol' darn gone and done it
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From jessie at SIRSI.COM  Tue Nov  7 19:16:30 2000
From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 13:16:30 -0600
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.131630.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> This construction was mainly used to discuss someone doing something bad.

In my experience, the "gone and" or "went and" construction carries the
notion of disbelief on the part of the speaker.

Jessie Emerson


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 19:06:41 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:06:41 -0500
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.140641.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:26 PM 11/7/00 -0500, you wrote:
>On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Johanna N Franklin wrote:
>
> >     I'm more used to hearing it as "...went and...," obviously, but I
> > have heard "gone" too (growing up in southern Illinois, rather rural).
> > This construction was mainly used to discuss someone doing something bad.
>
>"Went and..." (as well as "gone and...") sounds very natural to me,
>too. (mid-Michigan rural/industrial hybrid).
>
>-- Steve K.

Both are familiar to me too (rural/small town Minnesota), though I
associate them with my childhood style of speech (like that of
Scout).  They imply an elliptical "ahead" too:  "She went (ahead) and did
it," as if it wasn't foreseen or expected (not necessarily bad).  Isn't
this also a bit like a serial verb construction in which the first verb
isn't necessarily action-based?  Cf. "Let's go see."  "Let's go do
it."  "Let's go drown our dinner in syrup . . . ."

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM  Tue Nov  7 19:08:47 2000
From: Sallie.Lemons at MSDW.COM (Sallie Lemons)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:08:47 -0500
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.140847.0500.>



Laurence Horn wrote:

> At 12:20 PM -0800 11/7/00, Salikoko Mufwene wrote:
>
>> At 05:52 PM 11/7/2000 +0000, Lynne Murphy wrote:
>>
>> >>A southern student in my "Dialect Voices in Literature" class
>> >>suggested that "gone and" is equivalent to PERFECT "done" in this
>> >>construction. However, another southern student said she was not
>> >>familiar with it. My African-American student had no clue either.
>> >>The rest of white American students in the class had no idea. Can
>> >>anybody on this list enlighten us?
>> >
>> >Your question's a bit ambiguous.  Are the other students unfamiliar
>>
>> >with "gone and" or "done"?  The former seems unbelievable.
>> >
>> They are all unfamiliar with the "gone and" construction.
>
>> Sali.
>
> Weird.  There's even an extremely popular cross-over pop/country song
> from a couple of years ago by Shenia Twain about someone who's "gone
> 'n' done it".  No literal motion involved; I've repressed it, but the
> "it" was probably falling in love.  Anyone remember?  Oh wait, the
> internet.  Let's see...Here it is.  (Enough [gone and done it]s for
> everyone in Sali's class to have
> one.) http://www.shania.com/cool-3.htm (if you want to see her
> preparing to sing)LOVE GETS ME EVERY TIME
>
>
>         Written by Twain/Lange
>
>         Life was goin' great
>         Love was gonna have to wait
>         Was in no hurry -- had no worries
>         Stayin' single was the plan
>         Didn't need a steady man
>         Had it covered -- 'til I dicovered
>
>         Bridge:
>         That love gets me every time
>         My heart changed my mind
>         I gol' darn gone and done it
>
>         Chorus:
>         Gone and done it (gone and done it)
>         Guess I fell in love (gone and done it)
>         Must have been the way he walked (gone and done it)
>         Or his sweet sweet talk (gone and done it)
>         I guess I -- gol' darn gone and done it
>
>         I was quite content
>         Just a-payin' my own rent
>         It was my place -- I needed my space
>         I was free to shop around
>         In no rush to settle down
>         I had it covered -- 'til I discovered
>
>         (Bridge)
>         (Chorus)
>         (Bridge)
>
>         Chorus: Gone and done it (gone and done it)
>         Guess I fell in love (gone and done it)
>         Must have been the way he walked (gone and done it)
>         Or his sweet sweet talk (gone and done it)
>         It's in the way he calls my name (gone and done it)
>         I know I'll never be the same (gone and done it)
>
>         (Bridge)
>
>         Thought I had it covered
>         Life was going great
>         Well I gol' darn gone and done it
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From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 19:10:20 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:10:20 -0500
Subject: JAZZ (or, Ken Burns gets it wrong!)
In-Reply-To: <6.d986321.2739abb5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.141020.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I want to second Barry's amazement on this.  There has been a fair amount
of scholarship on the word "jazz," summarized in the entry in the
Historical Dictionary of American Slang.  Burns shows no sign of even
indirect influence by any of the relevant scholarship.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jessie at SIRSI.COM  Tue Nov  7 19:29:49 2000
From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 13:29:49 -0600
Subject: hauled off and (was Gone and V-ed)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.132949.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Now, if she were really outraged, she might have said, "But he's hauled
off and drowned . . .,"

I believe I've only heard "hauled off and" in reference to an act of
violence ("haul off and slap").

Jessie Emerson


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 06:22:51 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:22:51 +0800
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <sa07fbae.085@taexgw.tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.142251.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Here's my attempt, solely as a native Alabamian (b. 1962,
>Montgomery), at this:
>
>
>Now, if she were really outraged, she might have said, "But he's
>hauled off and drowned . . .," implying that Walter flagrantly,
>defiantly poured syrup all over his food. But really this is
>something I believe I've heard only men and boys say.
>
And if she were in a singin' mood, she could have (grown up and)
topped off Shenia's "gone an' done it" with the classic string band
sound of Wayne Raney's "Why Don't You Haul Off and Love Me?"
(recorded by several artists and groups in 1949, covered by Dolly
Parton 20 years later).    So Dolly  says "haul off and" at least
once, and she ain't no man nor boy, I don't reckon.

larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Nov  7 19:25:02 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:25:02 -0500
Subject: booking
In-Reply-To: <1A9672E4FDB@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.142502.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... "He was really booking, you know, going real fast," ... The
>word is alive and well -- in New York, at least.

Elsewhere too.

>I note that in 1969 a California participant in DARE completed the
>sentence "Something that is left undecided or unfinished: perhaps we
>had better ____" with the words "book it."  Is there a connection
>here?

A mystery to me. A slip of the mind for "table it"? "Book it for the next
meeting"? "Book space on the next meeting's agenda for it"?

>Neither the Dictionary of American English nor Dictionary of
>Americanisms has book as a verb.

The RHUD has it, but in the sense "depart" rather than "move fast".

In the sense "leave", I've generally heard "book" and "boogie" used
interchangeably (both current, I think, "book" probably the more common, in
my neighborhood); there's also "bug out". Also "bug[ger] off". All in the
RHUD, better in Chapman's slang dictionary. How are these related
etymologically? All have a connotation of immediacy, I think.

It is my impression that "book" = "move fast" is descended from "book" =
"depart [quickly/immediately]", this probably from something like
"bugger"/"booger" with "boogie" perhaps an intermediate form or perhaps
collateral. Can any savant correct me?

I wonder if "really booking" is parallel to "really flying" in the same
sense -- is "flying" in this sense perhaps derived from "fly" = "flee"
rather than "fly" = "aviate"?

-- Doug Wilson


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 06:30:08 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:30:08 +0800
Subject: Haul off and V (was: Gone and V-ed)
In-Reply-To: <00af01c048ef$3c1ea9c0$a0eaa6ce@sirsi.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.143008.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Semi-correction:  Dolly Parton's cover of "Why Don't You Haul Off and
Love Me" (1969) was part of a duet with Porter Wagoner, so this was
only half a counterexample to Elizabeth Gregory's generalization (and
after all the song was written by a man).

larry


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 19:41:30 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:41:30 -0500
Subject: hauled off and (was Gone and V-ed)
In-Reply-To: <00ce01c048f1$1843f940$a0eaa6ce@sirsi.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.144130.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not for me. I've hauled off and done lots of nonviolent stuff, although I
admit that "hauled off and" seems to prefix more decidedly physical stuff.
You went and told on him is better than You hauled off and told on him.

dInIs

 >> Now, if she were really outraged, she might have said, "But he's hauled
>off and drowned . . .,"
>
>I believe I've only heard "hauled off and" in reference to an act of
>violence ("haul off and slap").
>
>Jessie Emerson


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 19:43:39 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:43:39 -0500
Subject: Gone and V-ed
In-Reply-To: <p04320408b62d4e8d3359@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.144339.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Haul off an love me" plays, I think, on the usually physically active
status of what follows "haul off and" and is what makes "haul off and love
me" cute since "love me" is, by virture of this context, given a more
active or "physical" interpretation.

dInIs

>>Here's my attempt, solely as a native Alabamian (b. 1962,
>>Montgomery), at this:
>>
>>
>>Now, if she were really outraged, she might have said, "But he's
>>hauled off and drowned . . .," implying that Walter flagrantly,
>>defiantly poured syrup all over his food. But really this is
>>something I believe I've heard only men and boys say.
>>
>And if she were in a singin' mood, she could have (grown up and)
>topped off Shenia's "gone an' done it" with the classic string band
>sound of Wayne Raney's "Why Don't You Haul Off and Love Me?"
>(recorded by several artists and groups in 1949, covered by Dolly
>Parton 20 years later).    So Dolly  says "haul off and" at least
>once, and she ain't no man nor boy, I don't reckon.
>
>larry


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov  7 19:43:22 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 11:43:22 -0800
Subject: hauled off and (was Gone and V-ed)
In-Reply-To: <00ce01c048f1$1843f940$a0eaa6ce@sirsi.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.114322.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tue, Nov 7, 2000 1:29 PM -0600 Jessie Emerson <jessie at SIRSI.COM> wrote:

>
> I believe I've only heard "hauled off and" in reference to an act of
> violence ("haul off and slap").
>

Me too.  In my experience, the only thing you can haul off and do is hit
someone.  I assume its use in the song is a deliberate misuse for comic
effect or to give a startling new twist to the idea of "love."

Peter Mc.

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov  7 19:42:46 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:42:46 -0500
Subject: O. K. sign
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.144246.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I cross-posted my comment on the "OK" sign to SLLING-L, the Sign
Languages Linguistics List, Nancy Frishberg replied as follows (reposted
here by her permission):

>I also have this book, which I bought from John Smith, probably
>around the same time as Mark.  And, I needed to have John explain to
>joke to me, but I believe that this was (is?) general US, not just
>West Coast Deaf folklore.  John died quite a while ago (if I remember
>correctly - more than 10 years ago).

   Mark A. Mandel : Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Senior Linguist
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 07:05:32 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:05:32 +0800
Subject: hauled off and (was Gone and V-ed)
In-Reply-To: <765178.3182586202@dhcp-218-202-195.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.150532.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:43 AM -0800 11/7/00, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>--On Tue, Nov 7, 2000 1:29 PM -0600 Jessie Emerson <jessie at SIRSI.COM> wrote:
>
>>
>>  I believe I've only heard "hauled off and" in reference to an act of
>>  violence ("haul off and slap").
>>
>
>Me too.  In my experience, the only thing you can haul off and do is hit
>someone.  I assume its use in the song is a deliberate misuse for comic
>effect or to give a startling new twist to the idea of "love."
>
>Peter Mc.

I acknowledge that "Why Don't You Haul Off and Love Me" is an
exploitation of SOMEthing, but I'm not convinced that violence or
physical effort has to be involved.  This is from an anti-Clinton web
site, emphasis added:

Why They Don't Just Haul Off and Quit
Unvarnished vanity and insufferable arrogance
By John L. Perry
Posted March 11, 1999
...
"Quitting on principle and saying so at the time is a long-lost art
around the White House.
Those folks know now, even if they didn't before, what kind of man
their president is. So,
why don't they just haul off and quit?"

=======
Doesn't sound all that unnatural to me.
There's yet another song, "Haul Off and Kiss Me" (by Caroline
Aiken--another woman!)  "Deliberate misuse again," you say?  Well,
I'm not so sure it's that easily dismissable.  Here's an excerpt from
a piece of WebFiction called "Brothers and Sisters", at
http://northpole.simplenet.com/Jenga/RachelLynn/BroSis.htm.  Emphasis
added.

She smelled good, and there was something definitely feminine about
her, he realized as
she snuggled up against his chest. Immediately he tried to dismiss
the thought. _Here the poor girl is worried to death about the
situation we're in, and I can't seem to get my mind off wanting to
just haul off and kiss her out of the blue. Great, that's probably
exactly what she *doesn't* need at the moment._

--larry
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  7 20:08:37 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:08:37 EST
Subject: Show-ette
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.150837.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the DAILY NEWS (NY), 7 November 2000, pg. 44, col. 1:

_Madonna shows off_
_"Music" in a "show-ette"_
   (...)
   For her part, Madonna turned this 25-minute pit stop into a close
encounter worth cherishing.
   (...)
   Certainly, the "show-ette" didn't skimp on production values.

MISC.:
    Ric Burns is the brother of Ken Burns, to correct my last posting.  Ken
Burns is not Ken Burns's brother.
    OFF TOPIC: Also in the DAILY NEWS, pg. 41, is "Reason flunks out in
Electoral College."  Democratic Sen. Dick Durbin and Republican Rep. Ray
LaHood will introduce legislation to try and change the system.  (Too late
for this election, but still...)  FWIW, I also wrote a letter to Ross Perot,
who got over 10% of the vote in 1992 but 0 electors.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 07:15:24 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:15:24 +0800
Subject: Haul off and what?
In-Reply-To: <l03130302b62e0b969786@[35.8.73.31]>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.151524.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"Haul off an love me" plays, I think, on the usually physically active
>status of what follows "haul off and" and is what makes "haul off and love
>me" cute since "love me" is, by virture of this context, given a more
>active or "physical" interpretation.
>
>dInIs
>
Well, mebbe so, and the "haul off and kiss me" case is certainly
active and physical (without being necessarily all THAT violent, as
others would predict).  But here's another non-physical example,
_haul off and marry_, although arguably again for special effect.
This is from a site with various southern recipes,
http://www.zapitalism.com/zap/food.html.  It's the Chocolate Gravy &
Biscuits one that's relevant for our purposes, but I couldn't resist
including the banana worm bread.  (We do need something to eat so we
can wash it down with all of those drink recipes Barry is always
dispensing.)
=======================
Banana Worm Bread

       Ingredients:
       1/2 cup shortening
       3/4 cup sugar
       2 bananas, mashed
       2 cups flour
       1 teaspoon soda
       1 teaspoon salt
       1/2 cup chopped nuts
       2 eggs
       1/4 cup dry-roasted army worms

       Directions:
       Mix together all ingredients. Bake in greased loaf pan at 350
for about 1 hour.

       Chocolate Gravy & Biscuits

I'm a born-n-bred Southerner and had the gall to haul off and marry a
Northerner! I was raised on chocolate gravy and biscuits which is my
most favorite food of all time. This stuff is the greatest! My
husband won't even stay in the house when I make it or eat it though!

Biscuits: 1 or 2 cans of "whop" biscuits (these are the ones that
come in the little tube at the store and you have to "whop" them on
the counter to open the tube.) Bake as directed.

       Chocolate Gravy
       3 tablespoons of flour
       2 tablespoons of cocoa powder
       4 tablespoons of granulated sugar
       2 cups of milk
       2 tablespoons of butter
       1 teaspoon of vanilla

       Mix dry ingredients in shallow pan on stovetop until they're
completely combined. Add milk and stir. Cook on medium to medium high
heat until it bubbles and thickens. Add butter and vanilla. Stir.
Chunk up biscuits and pour chocolate gravy over the top. Enjoy!

       Oh....and you'll need a bucket....if you like it as much as I
do, then you'll eat till you explode!!!

       Sabrina Doster
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From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Nov  7 20:45:22 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 12:45:22 -0800
Subject: hauled off and (was Gone and V-ed)
In-Reply-To: <765178.3182586202@dhcp-218-202-195.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.124522.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Again, Peter and I, perhaps the lone Oregonians, are in agreement. "Haul
off and ..." implies agressive physical action. As for the song title,
I take it to be the juxtaposition of "haul off and" with
"kiss me" that makes it so, well, striking. Also, "gone and poured
syrup ... " or gone and V-ed anything sounds perfectly natural to me,
whereas "went and V-ed" sounds familiar but I don't think I've ever used
it in everyday speech.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> --On Tue, Nov 7, 2000 1:29 PM -0600 Jessie Emerson <jessie at SIRSI.COM> wrote:
>
> >
> > I believe I've only heard "hauled off and" in reference to an act of
> > violence ("haul off and slap").
> >
>
> Me too.  In my experience, the only thing you can haul off and do is hit
> someone.  I assume its use in the song is a deliberate misuse for comic
> effect or to give a startling new twist to the idea of "love."
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> ****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu
>


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Tue Nov  7 21:21:18 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:21:18 -0500
Subject: O. K. sign
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.162118.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Would apprecviate info re the Sign Language Linguistics List. My oldest
son does interpreting for the hearing impaired and may not be familiar
with it.

Bob

Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:
>
> When I cross-posted my comment on the "OK" sign to SLLING-L, the Sign
> Languages Linguistics List,


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  7 21:43:51 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:43:51 EST
Subject: V&V?
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.164351.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Of course, stop and think about it: these V + and + V constructions are
plentiful. This evening I'll skip the election returns and go out and think
of a few more.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  7 21:51:04 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:51:04 EST
Subject: Haul off and what?
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.165104.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/7/2000 3:15:24 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

<< Well, mebbe so, and the "haul off and kiss me" case is certainly
active and physical (without being necessarily all THAT violent, as
others would predict).  But here's another non-physical example,
_haul off and marry_, although arguably again for special effect. >>

yeah, it has to be violently physical, or at least metaphorically so
interpreatable:

*Alex hauled off and played his piano
*?Alex hauled off and played seventy-two different versions of "Comin' 'Round
the Mountain" on his piano
?Alex hauled off and pounded out seventy-two different versions of "Comin'
'Round the Mountain" on his piano

Haul off and kiss that gal!
?Haul off and kiss my ass!
*?You may now haul off and kiss the bride.


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Nov  7 22:02:05 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 14:02:05 -0800
Subject: hauled off and (was Gone and V-ed)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.21.0011071237460.111910-100000@homer16.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.140205.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Allen!  And to think I was just about to haul off and recant in the
face of all Larry's examples.  Us Northwesterners gotta stick to
our...verbs.  Today the ADS, tomorrow the Electoral College!

PMc

--On Tue, Nov 7, 2000 12:45 PM -0800 "A. Maberry"
<maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU> wrote:

> Again, Peter and I, perhaps the lone Oregonians, are in agreement. "Haul
> off and ..." implies agressive physical action. As for the song title,
> I take it to be the juxtaposition of "haul off and" with
> "kiss me" that makes it so, well, striking. Also, "gone and poured
> syrup ... " or gone and V-ed anything sounds perfectly natural to me,
> whereas "went and V-ed" sounds familiar but I don't think I've ever used
> it in everyday speech.
>
> Allen
> maberry at u.washington.edu
>
> On Tue, 7 Nov 2000, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>
>> --On Tue, Nov 7, 2000 1:29 PM -0600 Jessie Emerson <jessie at SIRSI.COM>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > I believe I've only heard "hauled off and" in reference to an act of
>> > violence ("haul off and slap").
>> >
>>
>> Me too.  In my experience, the only thing you can haul off and do is hit
>> someone.  I assume its use in the song is a deliberate misuse for comic
>> effect or to give a startling new twist to the idea of "love."
>>
>> Peter Mc.
>>
>> ************************************************************************
>> **** Peter A. McGraw
>>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu
>>



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov  7 22:04:23 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:04:23 -0500
Subject: V&V?
In-Reply-To: <91.29acb5a.2739d197@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.170423.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:43 PM 11/7/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Of course, stop and think about it: these V + and + V constructions are
>plentiful. This evening I'll skip the election returns and go out and think
>of a few more.

Or, go out and drink--esp. if things take and go badly.  (Oops, getting
political again.)

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Nov  7 22:26:53 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:26:53 -0500
Subject: booking
In-Reply-To: <1A9672E4FDB@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>; from
 thompsng@ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU on Tue, Nov 07,
 2000 at 11:40:30AM -0500
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.172653.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George Thompson wrote:
>
> HDAS (I happily follow the lead of Jesse Sheidlower in dropping the
> initials of the infamous publishing house formerly associated with
> this dictionary)

Longterm ADS-L members, or those using the archives, will know that I
have always referred to the _Random House Historical Dictionary
of American Slang_ as the HDAS. Also, Random House is still associated
with it.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Nov  7 23:11:30 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:11:30 -0600
Subject: JAZZ (or, Ken Burns gets it wrong!)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.171130.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Nov. 7, 2000 Fred Shapiro accurately commented on Barry Popik's message
from earlier in the day:
>
>I want to second Barry's amazement on this.  There has been a fair amount
>of scholarship on the word "jazz," summarized in the entry in the
>Historical Dictionary of American Slang.  Burns shows no sign of even
>indirect influence by any of the relevant scholarship.
>
-------I fully concur with Barry's and Fred's assessment. Also, I have
prepared a 70 page compilation of information on the term "jazz," slated
originally to appear in a few months in my publication "Comments on
Etymology"  (a series of working papers.)  In light of the present
discussion of "jazz" I'll move the publication date of that issue up to the
present.  I can have the issue ready to be mailed out in a week or two.

        Incidentally, due credit is given throughout the article. As a
start, the catalyst for my own work on the term "jazz" came from several
ADS-L messages sent by Barry Popik.

-----Gerald Cohen

















gcohen at umr.edu


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Tue Nov  7 23:18:07 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:18:07 -0600
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.171807.0600.>

"Peter A. McGraw" wrote:

> Like Lynne, I find it incredible that any speaker of American English would
> be unfamiliar with the "gone and..." construction. I doubt that I use it
> often myself, but it's certainly available in my active vocabulary.  And
> it's common enough in books (though probably only in dialog).  Have these
> students ever read a novel?!
>
> Certainly this use of "go" doesn't refer to motion.  It's something like
> "proceed to," except that, as Johanna and others have indicated, the verb
> it's used with denotes something undesirable or disapproved of by the
> speaker.  As far as I know, the full conjugation of "go" can be used in
> this way.  (E.g., to a child, "You WOULD go and eat ice cream before
> dinner, wouldn't you!"  Or, "So what does he do?  He goes and walks through
> a mud puddle in his brand new shoes!")

These figurative expressions are already at least one step away from [+literal], so if
'motion' is implicated, it would very likely also be nonliteral.  Someone suggested a
surprise element in them.  I buy this feature as being a likely core feature of these
expressions.  I suspect that there is a statistical tendency for these expressions to
occur when the surprise has negative more often than positive connotations.  Once a figure
of speech has taken on a negative smell, it is free to be used in irony -- or vice versa.
Meaning is in the mind of the speaker.  Would anyone assume negative implications if a
preacher said, "Well, looks like the Holy Ghost has done gone and taken over Mabel's whole
body!  Done hauled off and takened it away, done snatched it out of the hands of the
Devil!  She done went ahead and got herself saved!  Glory be!"
DMLance


From WNichols at RANDOMHOUSE.COM  Tue Nov  7 22:59:43 2000
From: WNichols at RANDOMHOUSE.COM (Nichols, Wendalyn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:59:43 -0500
Subject: booking
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.175943.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I thank Jesse for his continued commitment to the HDAS and to refuting the
inaccuracies that are flying about in the wake of the regrettable Wall
Street Journal article. Rebuttals are ultimately self-defeating, because
they draw more attention to a difficult situation, and fail to persuade
those who have chosen to believe that there are good guys and bad guys in
all this. It is also not our policy to discuss private issues in a public
forum, which is why almost all the information in that article all came from
one source, the agent John Thornton, with only minimal and reluctant
participation from Dr. Lighter.

We have therefore chosen to remain largely silent about this matter.
However, the members of this list are people whose scholarship I respect and
whose continuing support I would request, so I will state for the record
that Random House remains committed to finishing this project. Financial
support from any angels out there would be most welcome; the original NEH
grant for what was meant to be a one-volume work has long since run out, and
since we are a commercial entity, we are not eligible for other grants.

(And Barry, if you'd like to help, perhaps you could spearhead the fund
drive you suggested a while back, or find volunteers who would be willing to
key an estimated 150,000 hand-written cards into a database for free. I'm
actually only half joking.)

Wendalyn Nichols
Editorial Director
Random House Reference

-----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Sheidlower [mailto:jester at PANIX.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2000 5:27 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: booking


George Thompson wrote:
>
> HDAS (I happily follow the lead of Jesse Sheidlower in dropping the
> initials of the infamous publishing house formerly associated with
> this dictionary)

Longterm ADS-L members, or those using the archives, will know that I
have always referred to the _Random House Historical Dictionary
of American Slang_ as the HDAS. Also, Random House is still associated
with it.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov  7 23:53:22 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:53:22 EST
Subject: Externships
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.185322.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    "Externships" is in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL, 7 November 2000, pg.
B18, col. 1.  I haven't yet checked Barnhart.  A quick Google check shows the
term used more frequently in universities than in business.

(Stuff from THE MIXER & THE SERVER, later titled the CATERING INDUSTRY
EMPLOYEE, in a few hours.  You'll want to stay up for it!)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 11:27:26 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 19:27:26 +0800
Subject: (RH)HDAS and the long haul
In-Reply-To: <20001107172653.A13835@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.192726.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:26 PM -0500 11/7/00, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>George Thompson wrote:
>>
>>  HDAS (I happily follow the lead of Jesse Sheidlower in dropping the
>>  initials of the infamous publishing house formerly associated with
>>  this dictionary)
>
>Longterm ADS-L members, or those using the archives, will know that I
>have always referred to the _Random House Historical Dictionary
>of American Slang_ as the HDAS. Also, Random House is still associated
>with it.
>
Speaking of which, as soon as I got home I checked my trusty copy of
Volume II and found a nice antedate for that "Haul Off and Kiss Me"
song:

       "Then Lily hauls off and gives me a big kiss."  --Damon Runyan,
in Collier's, 1930

There's also (in addition to the predictable cases of hauling off and
slapping, taking a sock at, driving teeth in, etc.) a 1918 instance
of someone hauling off and stretching the long tall bird on the
floor, a 1923 cite of someone who "throws up his job, hauls off, and
enlists", and even--from Zora Neale Hurston, the foremother of
"doodly-squat"--this lovely sentence from a 1942 piece in the
American Mercury:

       "We hauled off and went to church last Sunday."

As far as I know, none of these writers are Oregonians, so the
Pacific Northwest is still safe from non-violent haul-offs.

larry
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From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Nov  8 01:00:30 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 20:00:30 -0500
Subject: Haul off and what?
In-Reply-To: <31.c3e79c0.2739d348@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.200030.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

All of Ron's ? and * are fine by me, making me wonder whether or not he is
an authentic haul-off and speaker.

dInIs

>In a message dated 11/7/2000 3:15:24 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
><< Well, mebbe so, and the "haul off and kiss me" case is certainly
>active and physical (without being necessarily all THAT violent, as
>others would predict).  But here's another non-physical example,
>_haul off and marry_, although arguably again for special effect. >>
>
>yeah, it has to be violently physical, or at least metaphorically so
>interpreatable:
>
>*Alex hauled off and played his piano
>*?Alex hauled off and played seventy-two different versions of "Comin' 'Round
>the Mountain" on his piano
>?Alex hauled off and pounded out seventy-two different versions of "Comin'
>'Round the Mountain" on his piano
>
>Haul off and kiss that gal!
>?Haul off and kiss my ass!
>*?You may now haul off and kiss the bride.


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM  Wed Nov  8 02:55:30 2000
From: funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM (Jordan Rich)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 18:55:30 -0800
Subject: Believe You Me
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.185530.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi,

One of my co-workers was asking me where this phrase came from.  Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Jordan


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  8 03:40:01 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 22:40:01 EST
Subject: The Mixer and Server (1890-)
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.224001.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     From WorldCat:

THE MIXER AND SERVER
   Cincinnati, Ohio: Hotel and Restaurant Employee's International Alliance
and Bartender's International League of America
   1890-1929
   Restaurants--Employees--Labor unions--United States--Periodicals
   Hotels--Employees--Labor Unions--United States--Periodicals
   CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE (succeeding title)
   Serial

   You'll notice that there are two subjects--and neither is "bartenders" nor
"bartending"!
   However, this is a "lost" gem on the order of the JEWISH BAKERS' VOICE.
   The NYPL has it from 1900.  Jere Sullivan wrote for it--he has one
excellent book on drinks that's available only at the Culinary Institute
(NY).  James E. Hickey (who wrote for the BUCKEYE TAVERN and who took over
the syndicated "The Barman's Corner" column) wrote a "Cocktails for Two"
column in the late 1930s.  In the 1940s, the CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE lost
all of its culinary character and became just union stuff.
   I took a look at 1900 and 1901, and then the post-prohibition years of the
1930s.
   The "missing" years 1890-1900 are important.  Supposedly, according to one
theory, there was a bartender named "Martinez" who named the Martinez/Martini
after himself.  There's gotta be some "Martini" in those ten years!
   Here goes:

15 March 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 6, col. 2:
   Have you discovered a new drink?  If so, let us hear what it is, and tell
the boys how it is mixed.

15 May 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 1, col. 3:
   THE ALLAN COCKTAIL.  (In so many words--ed.)
(By Jack Grohusko, head bartender of Baracca's, New York.)
   Three dashes of orange bitters, one dash of maraschino and one-third each
of Fernet bitters, French vermouth and Italian vermouth.  This drink is all
right when you get used to it--but you must get used to it first.  It is said
to be very good for the stomach.
(Also here are Boer Cocktail, The Lucy McCarthy Cocktail, and The Denville
Hotel (NJ) Cocktail--ed.)

15 May 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 1, col. 1--(The "Man Behing the Bar" poem,
by W. Reid Dunroy--ed.)

15 June 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 7, col. 3--Norval cocktail.

15 July 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 7, col. 2:
   _"MAMIE TAYLOR."_
(Philadelphia Special New York WOrld.)
   A New York man has introduced a new drink to Philadelphia; at least, he
says it's new.  It is concocted of cracked ice, Scotch whisky, the juice of a
lime and a bottle of ginger ale.
   The New Yorker invited Edward Green, of Texas, son of Hetty Green, to
sample it, remarking as the statesman from Texas tasted it: "That's the
newest drink out."
   "Probably it is in New York," said Green, "but they have been using it in
Texas for 30 years.  We used to call it 'The Scotch Lassie.'  What do you
call it."  "A 'Mamie Taylor'," said the New Yorker.

15 August 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 3, col. 1--"Know what a 'cucumber' is?
No.  It's an ordinary wine glass filled with crushed ice, poured two-thirds
full of creme de mint, with a top filling of rich cream.  This gives you a
cucumber green capped with a cream white--hence the name, cucumber."

15 November 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 6, col. 2--The Rowdy.

15 December 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 5, col. 1--Nothing succeeds like
success, keep pushing.

15 December 1900, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 14, col. 2--We are something on the
order of our Missouri friend, who said, "you will have to show me."  We are
Texans, and with us it is, "No show, no go."

15 January 1901, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 1, col. 2--In the words of Chimmy
Fadden, "You might match 'em, but you can't beat 'em."

15 September 1901, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 6, col. 2--Golden Rule City.
(Toledo--ed.)

15 November 1901, MIXER AND SERVER, pg. 21, col. 1--...when questions arise
which cause long debate, commonly called "Rag Chewing"...

12 January 1934, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 21--(Recipes from Jake
Didier's DIDIER'S REMINDER contain Brooklyn Cocktail, Brown Cocktail, and
Cornell Cocktail--ed.)

12 August 1935, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 21--(Drinks by a Cleveland
local--ed.)

12 September 1935, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 24--(More drinks by the
Cleveland local include Millionaire and Million Dollars--ed.)

12 October 1935, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 21--(Fizzes, Collinses,
Punches and Flipps by the Cleveland local--ed.)

12 December 1935, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 32, col. 1--Diners at "The
Trading Post" (Chicago--ed.) have access to a rare treat in Breast of Chicken
a la Kiev, a dish known to few chefs and one requiring expert attention.  Its
mysterious feature lies in the retention of a butter filling even after
cooking.  It is prepared as follows...

12 January 1936, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 23--(Rickeys, Slings,
Cobblers, and Daisies by the Cleveland local--ed.)

12 March 1937, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 47--Sugar  City.  (Crockett,
CA--ed.)

12 August 1937, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, pg. 33, col. 1--Chicken
Cacciatore.

12 January 1938, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, "Cocktails for Two by James E.
Hickey," pg. 31, col. 1--The recent International Cocktail Competition held
in London disclosed in the American entries many significant cocktail trends.
(...)  One San Francisco, Calif., bartender enetered what was in fact a West
Indies Daiquiri, using shaved ice and an electric mixing machine, and
substituted applejack for rum.  He named it "The Big Apple."  (After the
dance--ed.)

12 March 1938, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, "INTERNATIONAL COCKTAIL
COMPETITIONS--1937," pg. 35, col. 2:
FLANAGAN SPECIAL
   Into mixing glass filled with ice put
   3/4 Jigger Cream
   1 Jigger Gilbey's London Dry Gin
   1/4 Jigger White Creme de Menthe
Submitted by Alfred M. Wood, Hotel Flanagan, Malone, N. Y.
(...)
THE BIG APPLE (RED)
   1 Jigger Apple Jack Brandy
   1 Dash Lemon Juice
   1 Barspoon Orange Curacao
   1/3 Jigger Grenadine Syrup
   Place on an electric mixer until thick.  (This may also be Green)
Submitted by Harry H. Gregg, New Dalt Hotel, San Francisco, Calif.

12 July 1938, CATERING INDUSTRY EMPLOYEE, "Cocktails for Two by James E.
Hickey," pg. 33, col. 2--The Cuba Libre is zooming up to new popularity
heights already this summer...It is rum and Coca-COla, and the prim Coca-COla
people don't like the idea so much.


--------------------------------------------------------
7 February 1925, THE RESTAURATEUR, pg. 7, col. 1 ad for Geo. Thompson & Son,
"All Varieties Oysters and Clams," Foot Pike Street, New York City,
Telephone: Drydock 2933-2934-5658:

   _You've tried the Rest, Now--Try the Best_

(Fred Shapiro should record this phrase, and that George Thompson is the
best--ed.)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov  7 15:02:23 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 23:02:23 +0800
Subject: booking
In-Reply-To: <1A9672E4FDB@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.7.NOV.2000.230223.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:40 AM -0500 11/7/00, GEORGE THOMPSON wrote:
>   I am also put in mind of a stanza from an old
>country blues called "Keys to the Highway".  I've not heard this for
>many years, and my very limited blues CD collection doesn't include
>it, so I can't refesh my memory.  Are there any blues hounds in our
>coven?  I recall the version I knew to have been recorded by Big
>Bill Broonzy, probably in the 1930s or 1940s.  In any event, as I
>recall, the stanza goes:  "I've got the keys to the highway, I'm
>booked up and bound to go, I'm gone to leave here running, cause
>walking is most too slow."  Here there is a connection between being
>booked up and the desire for speed.
>
Eric Clapton has a wonderful cover of this piece, very bluesy and
almost ten minutes long, on the Derek and the Dominos album, but it
doesn't sound like there's any "booking", though.  Best I can make
out the verse it's something like

I got the key [yes, singular] to the highway
Deep down in my soul
Got to leave here running
Walking's just too slow.

larry


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Nov  8 09:23:01 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 04:23:01 -0500
Subject: synonyms for squeaker
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.042301.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Perhaps the Word of the Year will be found in the flood of synonyms for
"squeaker" that journalist (both electronic and print) will produce in
the wake of the election.

Regards,
David Barnhart

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From lingthings at YAHOO.COM  Wed Nov  8 13:07:47 2000
From: lingthings at YAHOO.COM (David Sanders)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 05:07:47 -0800
Subject: Election Coverage
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.050747.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Did anybody happen to tape the first couple of hours
of Dan Rather's election coverage on CBS last night?
He must have used a dozen or more expressions for how
tight the race was.  All were interesting, and about
half I had never heard before!  Most of them struck me
as Southern, but that's a largely uninformed opinion,
and I was wondering if anybody happened to catch them.

David Sanders

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From monickels at EXCITE.COM  Wed Nov  8 13:12:14 2000
From: monickels at EXCITE.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 05:12:14 -0800
Subject: synonyms for squeaker
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.051214.0800.>

>  Perhaps the Word of the Year will be found in the flood of synonyms for
>  "squeaker" that journalist (both electronic and print) will produce in
>  the wake of the election.

I've heard one here in France (I hope I have this right): "Il est un
mouchoir dans poche." Literally, "it's a pocket hankerchief."





_______________________________________________________
Say Bye to Slow Internet!
http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html


From jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM  Wed Nov  8 13:44:13 2000
From: jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM (Jeffrey William McKeough)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:44:13 -0500
Subject: Election Coverage
In-Reply-To: <20001108130747.42406.qmail@web9708.mail.yahoo.com> from "David
 Sanders" at Nov 08, 2000 05:07:47 AM
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.084413.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David Sanders wrote:
>
>Did anybody happen to tape the first couple of hours
>of Dan Rather's election coverage on CBS last night?
>He must have used a dozen or more expressions for how
>tight the race was.  All were interesting, and about
>half I had never heard before!  Most of them struck me
>as Southern, but that's a largely uninformed opinion,
>and I was wondering if anybody happened to catch them.

You're in luck.  Before I got sick of his theatrics and switched
channels, I started writing them down, though I don't have the context
for them all:

     One race was "nasty enough to gag a buzzard".

     At some point during the counting he said that (I think)
     someone's lead could "melt faster than ice cream in a microwave".

     He asked the chairman of the Gore campaign if his "fingernails
     [were] sweating".

     The Florida race (again, I think) was "hot enough to peel
     housepaint".

     "crackling like a hickory fire".

     "lead shakier than cafeteria jell-o"

     The New Jersey senate candidate "spent money like he had shorted
     Microsoft".

     "smiling like a cat in a creamery" (possibly Bush, but I'm not
     sure)

     Gore's trying to win without taking Florida would be "like trying
     to scratch his ear with his elbow".

     Bush (if something happened, don't know what) would be "mad as a
     rained-on rooster".

So do you suppose "ice cream in a microwave" is a genuine Southernism?
:-)

--
Jeffrey William McKeough   For Drainage, Punch Out The X: X
jwm at spdcc.com  (or spdcc.net if that bounces)
"Well it was more than 5 years ago for me, but if you
spent a lot of time moving really fast you may be OK." -Oly


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Wed Nov  8 14:30:58 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:30:58 -0500
Subject: booking
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.093058.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The song in question is actually Robert Johnson's Terraplane Blues.

Here are the lyrics, taken from "Harry's Blues Lyrics Online."

http://blueslyrics.tripod.com/artistswithsongs/robert_johnson_3.htm#terraplane_blues



                    And I feel so lonesome, you hear me when I moan
                    When I feel so lonesome, you hear me when I moan
                    Who been drivin' my Terraplane1, for you since I been gone.

                    I'd said I flash your lights, mama, you horn won't even blow
                    (spoken: Somebody's been runnin' my batteries down on this machine)
                    I even flash my lights, mama, this horn won't even blow
                    Got a short in this connection, hoo well, babe, it's way down below

                    I'm gion' heist your hood, mama, I'm bound to check your oil
                    I'm goin' heist your hood, mama, mmm, I'm bound to check your oil
                    I got a woman that I'm lovin', way down in Arkansas

                    Now, you know the coils ain't even buzzin', little generator won't get the spark
                    Motor's in a bad condition, you gotta have these batteries charged
                    But I'm cryin', pleease, pleease don't do me wrong.
                    Who been drivin' my Terraplane1 now for, you since I been gone.

                    Mr. highway man, please don't block the road
                    Puh hee hee, please don't block the road
                    'Cause she's reachin' a cold one hundred and I'm booked and I got to go

                    Mmm mmm mmm mmm mmm
                    Yoo ooo ooo ooo, you hear me weep and moan
                    Who been drivin' my Terraplane1 now for, you since I been gone

                    I'm gon' get down in this connection, keep on tanglin' with your wires
                    I'm gon' get down in this connection, oh well, keep on tanglin' with these wires
                    And when I mash down on your little starter, then your spark plug will give me fire

                    __________
                    Note 1: the Terraplane was a 1930's car model of the Hudson Motor Company, see a picture and read more about it.


Joe





Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on 11/07/2000
10:02:23 AM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sent by:  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
cc:
Subject:  Re: booking


At 11:40 AM -0500 11/7/00, GEORGE THOMPSON wrote:
>   I am also put in mind of a stanza from an old
>country blues called "Keys to the Highway".  I've not heard this for
>many years, and my very limited blues CD collection doesn't include
>it, so I can't refesh my memory.  Are there any blues hounds in our
>coven?  I recall the version I knew to have been recorded by Big
>Bill Broonzy, probably in the 1930s or 1940s.  In any event, as I
>recall, the stanza goes:  "I've got the keys to the highway, I'm
>booked up and bound to go, I'm gone to leave here running, cause
>walking is most too slow."  Here there is a connection between being
>booked up and the desire for speed.
>
Eric Clapton has a wonderful cover of this piece, very bluesy and
almost ten minutes long, on the Derek and the Dominos album, but it
doesn't sound like there's any "booking", though.  Best I can make
out the verse it's something like

I got the key [yes, singular] to the highway
Deep down in my soul
Got to leave here running
Walking's just too slow.

larry


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Wed Nov  8 15:20:49 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 07:20:49 -0800
Subject: booking
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.072049.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
> At 11:40 AM -0500 11/7/00, GEORGE THOMPSON wrote:
> >   I am also put in mind of a stanza from an old
> >country blues called "Keys to the Highway".  I've
> not heard this for
> >many years, and my very limited blues CD collection
> doesn't include
> >it, so I can't refesh my memory.  Are there any
> blues hounds in our
> >coven?  I recall the version I knew to have been
> recorded by Big
> >Bill Broonzy, probably in the 1930s or 1940s.  In
> any event, as I
> >recall, the stanza goes:  "I've got the keys to the
> highway, I'm
> >booked up and bound to go, I'm gone to leave here
> running, cause
> >walking is most too slow."  Here there is a
> connection between being
> >booked up and the desire for speed.

Or, my schedule is set, my agenda's full, my plans are
made, I'm going to have plenty to do, no sitting
around with regrets of leaving ... I'm booked up ...
plenty of possible meanings that have nothing to do
with speed.



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU  Wed Nov  8 15:36:15 2000
From: debaron at NTX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:36:15 -0600
Subject: english only passes in utah
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.093615.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FYI, from today's Salt Lake Tribune on-line edition:




It's Official: English Only, ACLU considers legal challenge; voters pass
seizure, sale restriction
 Wednesday, November 8, 2000


BY HEATHER MAY and JUDY FAHYS
THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE

    Utah became the 26th state to declare English as its official language
as voters approved a measure lawmakers had failed to pass on three previous
occasions.
    Only one county voted down Initiative A -- San Juan.
    Utahns also passed Initiative B, forbidding police and prosecutors from
seizing and selling property involved in a crime in which the owner is not
involved.
    Joe Hunter, spokesman for Utahns for Official English, acknowledged the
campaign had been "somewhat controversial and at times emotional, perhaps
more than it should have been. The voters saw the initiative for what it is:
A much simpler and much more common sense measure than some of the opponents
made it out to be."
    The measure received strong opposition from several politicians, civic
groups, church leaders and educators.
    The law requires government business to be conducted in English, with
exceptions for tourism, health, law enforcement and court proceedings, in
schools, universities and libraries. It also encourages the state to
initiate and expand English as a Second Language programs to help
immigrants.
    Before the election, there was still much uncertainty over what its
impact would be.
    Opponents say the law will prevent non-English speakers from obtaining
vital government services and will make them feel like second-class
citizens.
    "We're not terribly surprised, but we are terribly disappointed," said
Lorna Vogt, of Utah Common Voices. Her group, comprising 80 organizations
who opposed the measure, couldn't overcome the vast resources of U.S.
English, the national group that got the measure on the ballot in Utah.
Since 1998, when U.S. English starting gathering signatures, the lobbying
and research group has outspent its opponents almost 7 to 1, or $282,190 vs.
$42,149.
    Vogt also said voters didn't understand the measure.
    "They had it in their minds that it was a very simple gesture that
seemed to make sense on the surface," she said.
    The Utah chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union will "likely"
file a lawsuit, claiming violation of equal protection and freedom of
speech, Utah's ACLU director Carol Gnade said. . . . [rest of article is on
another, unrelated ballot proposal]


? Copyright 2000, The Salt Lake Tribune All material found on Utah OnLine is
copyrighted The Salt Lake Tribune and associated news services. No material
may be reproduced or reused without explicit permission from The Salt Lake
Tribune.





___________________
[Please note: this message may contain a phantom attachment which you should
ignore.]

Dennis Baron, Head                       debaron at uiuc.edu
Department of English                            217-333-2390
University of Illinois                          fax: 217-333-4321
608 S. Wright St.      http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron
Urbana, IL 61801


From nyinstitute at VIABCP.COM  Wed Nov  8 15:57:26 2000
From: nyinstitute at VIABCP.COM (nyinstitute)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:57:26 -0500
Subject: Election Coverage
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.105726.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

after "about a dozen" it became boring as he continued to use as many trite
clich?s as he could think of. The night`s total was in the hundreds.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Sanders" <lingthings at YAHOO.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 8:07 AM
Subject: Election Coverage


> Did anybody happen to tape the first couple of hours
> of Dan Rather's election coverage on CBS last night?
> He must have used a dozen or more expressions for how
> tight the race was.  All were interesting, and about
> half I had never heard before!  Most of them struck me
> as Southern, but that's a largely uninformed opinion,
> and I was wondering if anybody happened to catch them.
>
> David Sanders
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/
>


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Wed Nov  8 16:15:53 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:15:53 +0000
Subject: english only passes in utah
In-Reply-To: <744DBC8BC3FBD01192C200A0C96BA7BD02D145FD@ntx1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.161553.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>     Utahns also passed Initiative B, forbidding police and prosecutors from
>seizing and selling property involved in a crime in which the owner is not
>involved.
>     Joe Hunter, spokesman for Utahns for Official English, acknowledged the
>campaign had been "somewhat controversial and at times emotional, perhaps

I've never seen the word "Utahns" before.  Is the 'n' syllabic?

Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Wed Nov  8 16:47:36 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 11:47:36 EST
Subject: HDAS
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.114736.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I wrote that in using HDAS I was "dropping the initials of the
infamous publishing house formerly associated with this dictionary".

        Jesse Sheidlower responds to assure me that "Random House is still
associated with it".

        To which I say, Aint that a shame.  And I stand by the phrase
"infamous publishing house", and will continue to refer to Random
House as "the infamous publishing house" until I have vol. 3 in
my hands.

GAT


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Wed Nov  8 16:59:24 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 08:59:24 -0800
Subject: english only passes in utah
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.085924.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK> wrote:
>
> I've never seen the word "Utahns" before.  Is the
> 'n' syllabic?

> Lynne

No.  The fed's tried to convince us we were "Utahans"
a while back, but that fell flat on its face.  If my
recall isn't totally fuzzy, Sen. Hatch even brought up
on the Senate floor the question as to whether the
Federal government was to refer to a resident of Utah
as "Utahn" (prefered and used locally) or "Utahan"
(official fed usage at the time).  I don't recall
whether or not there was ever an "official"
resolution.


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Nov  8 17:01:26 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:01:26 -0800
Subject: Ground zero
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.090126.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A question for the word sleuths on the list.

"Ground zero" has been around a long time, but until this election I heard
it only as the designation of the exact point where a nuclear bomb actually
lands.  (O.k., I wouldn't swear that I never heard it extended to refer to
a conventional bomb, maybe even other kinds of explosions, such as the
eruption of Mt. St. Helens.)

In this election, a new meaning has suddenly (at least for me) sprung up,
with all the media using "ground zero" to indicate a geographical entity
(state, county, region, whatever) whose votes are crucial to the outcome of
the election, or which is the focus of intense media and party attention
because its votes are seen to be crucial.  I don't quite understand the
connection with an explosion: has there been some intermediate stage in
this development that I've missed?  Has anybody heard or seen this latest
usage before the current election?

Peter Mc.
(Writing from Oregon, which didn't turn out to be "ground zero" after all.)

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From sagehen at SLIC.COM  Wed Nov  8 17:17:14 2000
From: sagehen at SLIC.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:17:14 -0500
Subject: haul off &...
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.121714.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter writes:
>Thanks, Allen!  And to think I was just about to haul off and recant in the
>face of all Larry's examples.  Us Northwesterners gotta stick to
>our...verbs.  Today the ADS, tomorrow the Electoral College!<


Though no longer an Oregonian, I join the others in the strong sense of
motion in "haul off &..."  To me it suggests the backward movement of the
arm & shoulder, cocking the fist for a blow.
"Gone and V-ed" is very familiar to me, especially from childhood in the
Midwest.  I think I'd only have used it in talking with other children, and
that a little self-consciously.  It has the feel of being an extension of
the normal future construction of  "going to V."
A. Murie


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Nov  8 17:24:15 2000
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:24:15 -0800
Subject: english only passes in utah
In-Reply-To: <20001108165924.12102.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.092415.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Interesting!  Do Utahns pronounce the name of their state as the spelling
would indicate (with final [a:]) or as "Utaw," as I've always pronounced it
and, to my knowledge, heard it.  "Utahn" seems a logical spelling if the
state is [ju:ta:], but somehow less so if it's [ju:t):].  Maybe this has
something to do with the federal-Utah disagreement.

Peter Mc.

--On Wed, Nov 8, 2000 8:59 AM -0800 James Smith
<jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> --- Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK> wrote:
>>
>> I've never seen the word "Utahns" before.  Is the
>> 'n' syllabic?
>
>> Lynne
>
> No.  The fed's tried to convince us we were "Utahans"
> a while back, but that fell flat on its face.  If my
> recall isn't totally fuzzy, Sen. Hatch even brought up
> on the Senate floor the question as to whether the
> Federal government was to refer to a resident of Utah
> as "Utahn" (prefered and used locally) or "Utahan"
> (official fed usage at the time).  I don't recall
> whether or not there was ever an "official"
> resolution.
>
>
> =====
> James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
> SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
>                                |or slowly and cautiously.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Nov  8 17:19:08 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:19:08 -0500
Subject: Ground zero
In-Reply-To: <193548.3182662886@dhcp-218-200-211.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.121908.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't believe that the use of "ground zero" in these instances necessarily
means that an explosion is imminent so much as that area or locale has
become a target of great concern--that all eyes and expectations are focused
on that spot.  The explosion, in terms of political fallout, etc., would of
course in this use be metaphoric.

bob

> From: "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 09:01:26 -0800
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Ground zero
>
> A question for the word sleuths on the list.
>
> "Ground zero" has been around a long time, but until this election I heard
> it only as the designation of the exact point where a nuclear bomb actually
> lands.  (O.k., I wouldn't swear that I never heard it extended to refer to
> a conventional bomb, maybe even other kinds of explosions, such as the
> eruption of Mt. St. Helens.)
>
> In this election, a new meaning has suddenly (at least for me) sprung up,
> with all the media using "ground zero" to indicate a geographical entity
> (state, county, region, whatever) whose votes are crucial to the outcome of
> the election, or which is the focus of intense media and party attention
> because its votes are seen to be crucial.  I don't quite understand the
> connection with an explosion: has there been some intermediate stage in
> this development that I've missed?  Has anybody heard or seen this latest
> usage before the current election?
>
> Peter Mc.
> (Writing from Oregon, which didn't turn out to be "ground zero" after all.)
>
> ****************************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw
> Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
> pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From kurtpatt at ISU.EDU  Wed Nov  8 17:32:05 2000
From: kurtpatt at ISU.EDU (kurtpatt)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 10:32:05 -0700
Subject: Election Coverage
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.103205.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I didn't catch Rather's expressiosns, but on MSNBC, they kept saying
"tight as a tick."

Patti Kurtz

David Sanders wrote:

> Did anybody happen to tape the first couple of hours
> of Dan Rather's election coverage on CBS last night?
> He must have used a dozen or more expressions for how
> tight the race was.  All were interesting, and about
> half I had never heard before!  Most of them struck me
> as Southern, but that's a largely uninformed opinion,
> and I was wondering if anybody happened to catch them.
>
> David Sanders
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
> http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From Amcolph at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  8 18:13:51 2000
From: Amcolph at AOL.COM (Ray Ott)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:13:51 EST
Subject: Election Coverage
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.131351.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Maybe he thought that the right thing for those to guys to do under the
surcumstances was to go out and tie one on.

Ray Ott


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  8 18:25:50 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:25:50 EST
Subject: Haul off and what?
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.132550.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/7/00 7:57:34 PM, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes:

<< All of Ron's ? and * are fine by me, making me wonder whether or not he is
an authentic haul-off and speaker. >>

nah, it just means that Preston has only one register


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  8 18:28:10 2000
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:28:10 EST
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.132810.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've heard the "(done) gone and V-ed," "(done) went and V-ed," and even "up
and "V-ed"--all of which I construe as the speaker's attempt to report not
just the act (V-ed) but his/her shock/suprise at (disbelief of or contempt
for) that act.  Compare the following:
            A.  He (done) gone and killed his mama.
            B.  He went and killed his mama.
            C.  He up and killed his mama.
My interpretation of all three is that the speaker is that the first "verb"
in the conjoined pair should not be interpreted literally; rather, it has a
pragmatic purpose:
to express the speaker's negative reaction to the act itself.
                                PAT


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Wed Nov  8 18:49:40 2000
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 13:49:40 EST
Subject: Gone and V-ed
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.134940.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Also a native Alabamian (living in Montgomery for over 2 decades), I've heard
"hauled off and V-ed" used only in cases of outrage over some devastating or
forceful action, such as hitting, slapping, kicking, biting.  Thus, I would
interpret "hauled off and V-ed" as not only expressing contempt for or
outrage over the action but also capturing the initiation of the act -- that
is, the actor's preparing to perform the action (e.g., positioning the hand
or foot to effect desired degree of impact).        PAT


From afaber at MAIL.WESLEYAN.EDU  Wed Nov  8 19:02:59 2000
From: afaber at MAIL.WESLEYAN.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:02:59 -0500
Subject: english only passes in utah
In-Reply-To: <20001108165924.12102.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.140259.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James Smith said:
>--- Lynne Murphy <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK> wrote:
> >
> > I've never seen the word "Utahns" before.  Is the
> > 'n' syllabic?
>
> > Lynne
>
>No.  The fed's tried to convince us we were "Utahans"
>a while back, but that fell flat on its face.  If my
>recall isn't totally fuzzy, Sen. Hatch even brought up
>on the Senate floor the question as to whether the
>Federal government was to refer to a resident of Utah
>as "Utahn" (prefered and used locally) or "Utahan"
>(official fed usage at the time).  I don't recall
>whether or not there was ever an "official"
>resolution.
>
Somewhere in my files, I have a copy of an article from the Salt Lake
Tribune that Marianna sent me when we were working on one of our Utah
speech papers. One of my colleagues had questioned our use of "Utahn"
as opposed to "Utahan" in the ms. While this colleague ordinarily has
very good instincts about English style, we did have to convince him
that we couldn't possibly say "Utahan".

--
Alice Faber, Manager                                         (860) 685-2954
Infant Language Development Laboratory                  afaber at wesleyan.edu
400 Judd Hall--Wesleyan University                               or
Middletown, CT 06459                                 faber at haskins.yale.edu


From lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU  Wed Nov  8 19:59:35 2000
From: lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU (Sonja L. Lanehart)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 14:59:35 -0500
Subject: ground zero
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.145935.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I recall reading an e-mail asking about 'ground zero.' Lo and behold,
I was reading Rickford and Rickford's _Spoken Soul_ (2000:186) and
read the following:

"Not surprisingly, the King case would roil Michigan and rattle the
presses for some time. Between July 1977 and February 1981, nearly
five hundred news stories on the case were published. The prim
community of Ann Arbor was not to become ground zero for Ebonics on
the scale of Oakland (the city where Black Panther radicalism
started, after all), but shock waves from the judgment would indeed
be felt throughout the county, with dozens of newspaper commentators
piling on to snuff out any sympathy for Black English."

--SL

***************************************************
Sonja L. Lanehart
Department of English      706-542-2260 (office)
University of Georgia      706-542-1261 (messages)
300 Park Hall              706-542-2181 (fax)
Athens, GA 30605-6205      lanehart at arches.uga.edu
***************************************************


From madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU  Wed Nov  8 20:26:46 2000
From: madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU (madonna at SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 12:26:46 -0800
Subject: Election Coverage
In-Reply-To: <c3.ad207b8.273af1df@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.122646.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

my favorites were the extended metaphor for a close race "hot and tight,
as hot and tight as a [wet?] swimsuit on a two-[?]hour drive drive back
from the beach," and the riff on "if," in response to his colleague's
hypothetical scenario, "if a frog had side pockets he'd have [carry?]
handguns."

my mother is a transplanted southerner, and some of dan's extemporizing
reminded me of hers.  one difference:  she will reel off half of
_bartlett's familiar quotations_ without attribution; he at least
mentioned "the good book" in connection with the race not always being won
by the swift.

sylvia swift
madonna at socrates.berkeley.edu


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov  8 07:30:12 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:30:12 +0800
Subject: ground zero
In-Reply-To: <v0422080db62f60356238@[128.192.25.71]>
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.153012.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I recall reading an e-mail asking about 'ground zero.' Lo and behold,
>I was reading Rickford and Rickford's _Spoken Soul_ (2000:186) and
>read the following:
>
>"Not surprisingly, the King case would roil Michigan and rattle the
>presses for some time. Between July 1977 and February 1981, nearly
>five hundred news stories on the case were published. The prim
>community of Ann Arbor was not to become ground zero for Ebonics on
>the scale of Oakland (the city where Black Panther radicalism
>started, after all), but shock waves from the judgment would indeed
>be felt throughout the county, with dozens of newspaper commentators
>piling on to snuff out any sympathy for Black English."
>
>--SL

Nobody's mentioned in this thread the frequent reanalysis of "ground
zero" as "square one", as in "Now (e.g. after the verdict was
overturned) we have to go back to ground zero".  No explosion, even
metaphorical, OR focus involved here.  (A bugbear of prescriptivists
a while back, to be sure.)

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov  8 07:48:56 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 15:48:56 +0800
Subject: Election Coverage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0011081216190.28795-100000@socrates.Berkeley.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.154856.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>my favorites were the extended metaphor for a close race "hot and tight,
>as hot and tight as a [wet?] swimsuit on a two-[?]hour drive drive back
>from the beach," and the riff on "if," in response to his colleague's
>hypothetical scenario, "if a frog had side pockets he'd have [carry?]
>handguns."
>
>my mother is a transplanted southerner, and some of dan's extemporizing
>reminded me of hers.  one difference:  she will reel off half of
>_bartlett's familiar quotations_ without attribution; he at least
>mentioned "the good book" in connection with the race not always being won
>by the swift.

except I seem to recall Dan gave the quote in its unabridged form:

"The race is not always to the swift nor the battle to the strong,
but that's the way to bet"

--which I believe is Damon Runyan's riff on the biblical passage.

larry


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Nov  8 21:44:23 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 16:44:23 -0500
Subject: "money" as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.164423.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In HDAS, under _money_ 'friend (in direct address)' (e.g.
"Yo, money, whassup?"), we have two examples where this
_money_ is functioning as a quasi-pronoun: "Money
[i.e. 'he'] can rap" and "Leave money [i.e. 'him']
alone".

I have a vague sense that I've encountered this elsewhere, or
that it is at least slightly common, but I can't find any
additional examples. Parallel examples with other AAVE
direct-address terms sound plausible to my ear (e.g.
"Homes was doin' great!" (invented ex.)), but I can't find
evidence for them either.

Is anyone familiar with this usage--preferably with
examples, but at least able to confirm or refute my
suspicion that the construction has at least some
currency? Is this construction or parallels used
in any other way?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Nov  9 01:31:42 2000
From: mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko Mufwene)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2000 17:31:42 -0800
Subject: Fwd: Death of Chas Hockett
Message-ID: <WED.8.NOV.2000.173142.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


>>  Charles  Francis Hockett of 145 North Sunset Drive, Ithaca, New York
>>died at
>>the  Cayuga Medical Center on November 3, 2000 after a short illness. He was
>>84.
>>
>>Hockett was the fourth child of Homer Carey and Amy Francisco  Hockett. He
>>was
>>born in Columbus, Ohio on January 17, 1916. He was educated  in the public
>>schools of Columbus and Worthington, Ohio and graduated from  the Ohio State
>>University, receiving both the BA (summa cum laude) and the  MA (high
>>distinction in history) in June, 1936. Thereafter he attended Yale
>>University
>>for three years, with financial aid first from the Social Science  Research
>>Council and then from the American Council of Learned Societies. He  studied
>>under Edward Sapir, George P. Murdock, Leslie Spier, Morris Swadesh,  George
>>L. Trager, and Benjamin J. Whorf, majoring in anthropology and  linguistics.
>>He was awarded the PhD in June, 1939, with a dissertation based  on
fieldwork
>>with the Potawatomi Indians of Northern Wisconsin.
>>
>>After  a summer of fieldwork with the Kickapoo Indians of Oklahoma, an
autumn
>>in  Michoac?n, Mexico, and two years of postdoctoral study at the
>>Universities
>>of Chicago and Michigan, the former with Leonard Bloomfield, Hockett was
>>drafted into the United States Army in February of 1942. On furlough in
>>April
>>of that year, he married Shirley Orlinoff of Queens, New York. His  basic
>>training in the army was in antiaircraft artillery, followed by a few
months
>>helping to prepare other recruits for Officer Candidate School. But  then he
>>was transferred to Army Service Forces and given duties that made  use of
his
>>civilian expertise: in late 1942 he accompanied a shipment of  officers to
>>General Stillwell s headquarters in Bengal, India, supervising  their
>>learning
>>of Chinese while en route. Returning from that mission,  Hockett was
>>stationed
>>for several years in New York City, preparing  language-training materials
>>for
>>the armed forces. He was commissioned second  lieutenant in 1943, and
>>promoted
>>to first lieutenant in 1945. After the  surrender of Japan he was dispatched
>>via the Philippines to Tokyo to help  train American troops in Japanese. In
>>February of 1946 he was separated from  the army, with a terminal-leave
>>promotion to captain. With that rank he was  called back for the summer of
>>1950 to help in the training of officers in  foreign languages at the
>>Praesidio of Monterey, California.
>>
>>In 1945,  after a summer s work in New York City on Clarence L. Barnhart s
>>American  College Dictionary, Hockett came to Cornell University as an
>>Assistant  Professor of Linguistics in charge of elementary Chinese. He
>>joined
>>the  newly founded Division of Modern Languages under the directorship of
>>the
>>late J. Milton Cowan. In due time, at Cornell, Hockett was promoted to
>>Associate Professor, to full Professor, and finally to a Goldwin Smith
>>Professorship, his rank at the time of retirement in 1982.
>>
>>While on  the Cornell faculty, Hockett headed a team preparing a basic
>>pattern
>>for a  series of textbooks in English as a second language. In 1955 he pu
>>blished an  elementary textbook of linguistics [A Course in Modern
>>Linguistics] (with  translations into
>>Spanish, Polish, and Chinese) that was the standard in the  field for about
>>twenty years. Hockett regarded his introductory textbook in  anthropology
>>[Man's Place in Nature]
>>(1973) as his best scholarly work even  though it was a commercial
>>failure. He
>>published many technical papers,  mostly in linguistics, and he supervised
>>the
>>work of about 90 graduate  students working for an MA or PhD, who are now
>>teaching at universities all  over the world.
>>
>>During the fifties, Hockett was on the staff of the  Linguistic
Institutes of
>>the Linguistic Society of America at Indiana  University and the
>>University of
>>Michigan. He taught at the Canadian Summer  School of Linguistics in
>>Edmonton,
>>Alberta in 1960. In 1960-1961 he was  Carnegie Visiting Professor of
>>Linguistics at the University of Hawaii. At  various times he gave
>>lectures at
>>Freiburg im Breisgau; in D?sseldorf;  twice, at an interval of thirty years,
>>in Grenoble; in 1972 at the  Linguistic Institute held at the University of
>>Illinois; in 1991 in Denton,  Texas, to the Linguistic Association of the
>>Southwest. For four months in  the fall of 1986 Hockett lectured on
>>linguistics at the Beiping Foreign  Studies University. He was president of
>>the Linguistic Society of America in  1972, president of the Linguistic
>>Association of Canada and the United  States in 1982, and Distinguished
>>Lecturer of the American Anthropological  Association in 1986. Beginning in
>>1986, he was first Visiting Professor,  then Adjunct Professor of
>>Linguistics,
>>at Rice University in Houston, Texas,  an appointment still in effect at the
>>time of his death.
>>
>>Hockett was  elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 1972
and
>>to the  National Academy of Science in 1973.
>>
>>Hockett was a well trained musician,  playing flute and piccolo in high
>>school
>>and college, later switching to  bass clarinet, which he played for many
>>years
>>in the Ithaca Concert Band. As  a composer, he produced piano music, songs,
>>several marches, an opera (given  two performances by the Ithaca Opera
>>Association in 1973 at Ithaca College),  a concertino for cello and wind
>>ensemble, and chamber music, the last  especially for combinations including
>>oboe or cello. In April of 2000 a  concert of his music was performed at
>>Ithaca College by his daughter,  pianist Alpha Hockett Walker, and her
>>husband
>>David Weiss, principal oboist  of the Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra.
>>
>>Hockett is survived by a  loving family: his wife Shirley Hockett, daughter
>>Alpha Hockett Walker and  husband David Weiss (now of Los Angeles), son
Asher
>>Orlinoff Hockett and  wife Jane McLarty (of Ithaca), daughter Amy Robin Rose
>>and husband Eddie  Sackett (now of Detroit), daughter Rachel Hockett
Youngman
>>and husband  Richard Youngman (now of Cambria, California), and daughter
>>Carey
>>Beth  Hockett (now of London, England). There are also five grandchildren:
>>Rachel s children Charles H. and Annie H. Kee; and Alpha s children Carly,
>>Luke, and Hannah Walker.
>>A celebration of Hockett s life is planned for  the spring of 2001. Anyone
>>wishing to make a contribution in his memory  should direct it to the School
>>of Music of Ithaca College, which he  enthusiastically supported.
>>
>>(Text as it appeared in the Ithaca Journal,  6 November 2000)    
>>
> 
**********************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
**********************************************************
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From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov  9 08:08:36 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:08:36 +0100
Subject: money as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.090836.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

On mercredi 8 novembre 2000 22:44, Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:
>In HDAS, under _money_ 'friend (in direct address)' (e.g.
>"Yo, money, whassup?"), we have two examples where this
>_money_ is functioning as a quasi-pronoun: "Money
>[i.e. 'he'] can rap" and "Leave money [i.e. 'him']
>alone".

>Is anyone familiar with this usage--preferably with
>examples, but at least able to confirm or refute my
>suspicion that the construction has at least some
>currency? Is this construction or parallels used
>in any other way?

I think you should check out the movie "Swingers." It's a Nineties white kid cult
classic, and although "money" is used as in "You are so money" in a notable scene, I
suspect you'll find your quasi-pronoun usage there as well.


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov  9 08:13:47 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:13:47 +0100
Subject: Election Coverage
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.091347.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

On mercredi 8 novembre 2000 14:07, David Sanders <lingthings at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>Did anybody happen to tape the first couple of hours
>of Dan Rather's election coverage on CBS last night?
>He must have used a dozen or more expressions for how
>tight the race was.  All were interesting, and about
>half I had never heard before!  Most of them struck me
>as Southern, but that's a largely uninformed opinion,
>and I was wondering if anybody happened to catch them.

Check out Modern Humorist's relatd quiz:

http://modernhumorist.com/mh/0011/rather/


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Nov  9 10:19:56 2000
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 02:19:56 -0800
Subject: "money" as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.021956.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Girlfriend was lookin' good!"
"The brotha was fine!"

--- Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:
> In HDAS, under _money_ 'friend (in direct address)'
> (e.g.
> "Yo, money, whassup?"), we have two examples where
> this
> _money_ is functioning as a quasi-pronoun: "Money
> [i.e. 'he'] can rap" and "Leave money [i.e. 'him']
> alone".
>
> I have a vague sense that I've encountered this
> elsewhere, or
> that it is at least slightly common, but I can't
> find any
> additional examples. Parallel examples with other
> AAVE
> direct-address terms sound plausible to my ear (e.g.
> "Homes was doin' great!" (invented ex.)), but I
> can't find
> evidence for them either.
>
> Is anyone familiar with this usage--preferably with
> examples, but at least able to confirm or refute my
> suspicion that the construction has at least some
> currency? Is this construction or parallels used
> in any other way?
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED


=====
Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Associate Professor - English and Linguistics
& University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
757-727-5769 (voice);757-727-5421 (fax);757-851-5773(home)
e-mail:  mlee303 at yahoo.com   or   margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one Place.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Nov  9 11:27:48 2000
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 06:27:48 -0500
Subject: JAZZ (or, Ken Burns gets it wrong!)
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.062748.0500.ABATEFR@EARTHLINK.NET>

Burns's research in his baseball series was very weak, in my view, as an
ardent fan.  I don't think it is his strong suit.  This led me to question
the research (that actually makes it to the final edit) and balance in any
of his stuff, including his "Civil War".

Frank Abate


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov  9 12:34:22 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:34:22 +0100
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.133422.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

Has there been any work done one the construction "gives good X"? My guess is that
it comes from "gives good head" but as can be seen in the quote below, we're a long
way from that now.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,393879,00.html

"Clinton stepped forward as the calmer voice, leading the Oklahoma families in
mourning. Perhaps for the first time, he looked presidential - a father of the nation at a
moment of crisis. Just then, America needed a leader who would feel their pain.

"Though no official would ever say it out loud, mourning worked well for Clinton: he
gave good funeral."

In the same (great) article, there's this quote. Is it verifiable?

"When Rabin was assassinated two years later, it was Clinton who knew how to massage
Israel's wounded spirit. He spoke to them, via TV, addressing the dead Rabin with
the words "Shalom chaver" - goodbye friend. The phrase had not existed in Hebrew
before; now it's common Israeli parlance."


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Thu Nov  9 13:41:13 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 08:41:13 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <909137901gbarrett@monickels.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.084113.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Grant Barrett wrote:

> Has there been any work done one the construction "gives good X"? My
> guess is that
> it comes from "gives good head" but as can be seen in the quote below,
> we're a long
> way from that now.

The record should reflect Madonna's "Rita Hayworth gave good face" in
'Vogue. some 10 or 11 years ago.

--- Steve K.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Nov  9 13:46:02 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 08:46:02 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <909137901gbarrett@monickels.com>; from gbarrett@MONICKELS.COM on
 Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:34:22PM +0100
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.084602.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Has there been any work done one the construction "gives good X"? My guess is that
> it comes from "gives good head" but as can be seen in the quote below, we're a long
> way from that now.

The Random House HDAS has "give good [or great] ---- (followed by
sing. count noun treated as mass noun) to be notable for ----;
to be notable for the use of or abilities with ----. [Used to
generate usu. joc. nonce phr., all reminiscent of (and patterned
after) _give head_ s.v. head, n.", with citations from 1971 onwards.

The construction also seems to have been discussed in a 1983 article
in American Speech which I can't find right now.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Thu Nov  9 14:32:47 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:32:47 -0500
Subject: "money" as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.093247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have a friend I've known since '92 who calls good friends "Money" on a
regular basis. I've also heard it used the same way prior to that, on
occasions, but can't provide a specific instance.

Bob

Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
> In HDAS, under _money_ 'friend (in direct address)' (e.g.
> "Yo, money, whassup?"), we have two examples where this
> _money_ is functioning as a quasi-pronoun: "Money
> [i.e. 'he'] can rap" and "Leave money [i.e. 'him']
> alone".
>
> I have a vague sense that I've encountered this elsewhere, or
> that it is at least slightly common, but I can't find any
> additional examples. Parallel examples with other AAVE
> direct-address terms sound plausible to my ear (e.g.
> "Homes was doin' great!" (invented ex.)), but I can't find
> evidence for them either.
>
> Is anyone familiar with this usage--preferably with
> examples, but at least able to confirm or refute my
> suspicion that the construction has at least some
> currency? Is this construction or parallels used
> in any other way?
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Nov  9 14:48:17 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:48:17 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <909137901gbarrett@monickels.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.094817.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Has there been any work done one the construction "gives good X"? My guess
>is that
>it comes from "gives good head" but as can be seen in the quote below,
>we're a long
>way from that now.
>
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,393879,00.html
>
>...

>"Though no official would ever say it out loud, mourning worked well for
>Clinton: he
>gave good funeral."

"Give X" < "Give head" < "Get [some] head" < "Get [some] tail", I think.

Alternatives include "Get/give skull/face". I suppose Madonna's song
employs a deliberate double-entendre.

While "give good wedding" might be considered simply schoolboy-jocular, I
think "give good funeral", as in the above article, is deliberately mildly
derogatory, with an implicit imputation of
hypocrisy/meretriciousness/whorishness: I think the clause after the colon
in the above quotation is entirely superfluous/gratuitous otherwise. Maybe
we're not so very far from the underlying expression with "head". Do others
share my perception?

-- Doug Wilson


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Thu Nov  9 15:29:48 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:29:48 EST
Subject: (Fwd) RE: HDAS
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.102948.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Robert Felton wrote to me, regarding the HDAS: "Does anybody (anyone?
... whichever) know the publishing schedule?"

I replied to him thus:

        "It seems to be in a state of permanent suspension, since evidently
that disreputable publishing house and its ultimate owners, whoever
and whereever they are, refuse to invest in completing the project,
and they are barred from raising money from foundations to complete
it, by the fact that they are a relentlessly for-profit business.
You saw the message from the publisher yesterday, to which I
responded, directly to him, that I still stood by the phrase
"disreputable publishing house".  And will continue to stand by it,
and indeed to insist upon it.

        "Only if we make clear that we who are the purchasers and users of
that dictionary will continue to regard its publisher as a disreputable
publishing house until the project in completed will it in fact be
completed."

        Indeed, I think I am going to make the non-appearance of vol. 3 of
HDAS my own obsessive crusade, and will stay on that disreputable
publishing house like ugly on an ape until it appears.  William
Safire only thinks he's getting his balls busted here.  He doesn't
know.

GAT


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Thu Nov  9 16:14:09 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:14:09 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.111409.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Woody Allen's "Annie Hall" (1977), a character says this:

"Not only is he a great agent, but he really gives good meetings."

Paul


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov  9 03:41:31 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:41:31 +0800
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <009c01c04a68$17c1b980$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.114131.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A classic graffito (or pseudo-graffito):

"Edith Head gives good costumes."

(For the uninitiated, E.H. is/was probably Hollywood's most
celebrated costume designer.)

larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov  9 16:47:49 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:47:49 EST
Subject: Sudden Wealth Syndrome
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.114749.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the NEW YORK POST, 9 November 2000, pg. 34, col. 3:

_"SUDDEN WEALTH SYNDROME"_
_Are they too rich too soon?_
_Many young 'Net entrepreneurs fall to drugs & booze_
   (Story of the late Phillip Katz, the "zipping" genius, and others--ed.)
   (Pg. 35, col. 6--ed.)
    Eventually, the feeling of immense power can lead to what Goldbart calls
"financial narcissism."

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

   I've seen "dot-comette" but I haven't seen "dot-comet."  I haven't checked
the databases yet...I'll try to sneak into the CIA this weekend (Culinary
Institute of America, that is)...I have a new senator with no last name.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Nov  9 16:52:26 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:52:26 -0500
Subject: money as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
In-Reply-To: <909121769gbarrett@monickels.com>; from gbarrett@MONICKELS.COM on
 Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 09:08:36AM +0100
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.115226.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I think you should check out the movie "Swingers." It's a Nineties white kid cult
> classic, and although "money" is used as in "You are so money" in a notable scene, I
> suspect you'll find your quasi-pronoun usage there as well.

You won't.

Also, re the notable usage in the film, while Doug Liman (author/
director) has claimed that he did not invent the usage, but heard
it an incorporated it into the film, I have never seen an
example of it that did not refer to the film (with the possible
exception of glossaries that are not explicitely tied to the
film but clearly derive the usage from it). I'd welcome any
genuine cites.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Nov  9 17:39:12 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:39:12 +0000
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <009c01c04a68$17c1b980$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.173912.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In Woody Allen's "Annie Hall" (1977), a character says this:
>
>"Not only is he a great agent, but he really gives good meetings."
>
>Paul

But that's more likely a play on "give a good party" than "give head".

Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM  Thu Nov  9 17:49:46 2000
From: jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM (Jeffrey William McKeough)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 12:49:46 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <909137901gbarrett@monickels.com> from "Grant Barrett" at Nov 09,
 2000 01:34:22 PM
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.124946.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Grant Barrett wrote:
>
>In the same (great) article, there's this quote. Is it verifiable?
>
>"When Rabin was assassinated two years later, it was Clinton who knew
>how to massage Israel's wounded spirit. He spoke to them, via TV,
>addressing the dead Rabin with the words "Shalom chaver" - goodbye
>friend. The phrase had not existed in Hebrew before; now it's common
>Israeli parlance."

I don't know if Israelis used the phrase, but when I was a kid in
Hebrew school in the '70s we sang a song called "shalom chaverim".

Oh, and about the Official English law in Utah: My boyfriend is a grad
student at the University of Utah, and said that one of the main
arguments he heard in favor of the measure (which he opposed) was that
English was the official language of the United States, and that this
initiative would merely bring Utah law in line with Federal law.
(Many people believed this so strongly that he gave up trying to
correct them.)

--
Jeffrey William McKeough   For Drainage, Punch Out The X: X
jwm at spdcc.com  (or spdcc.net if that bounces)
"Well it was more than 5 years ago for me, but if you
spent a lot of time moving really fast you may be OK." -Oly


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Nov  9 16:54:11 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:54:11 -0500
Subject: Sudden Wealth Syndrome
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.115411.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Barry, and anyone else who is interested:


CIA is not a closed campus.  As a resident of Hyde Park, I ought to
know, they welcome "outsiders."

Regards,
David Barnhart


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Nov  9 18:20:31 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:20:31 -0500
Subject: More Dan Ratherisms
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.132031.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Letterman last night, he quoted several other Ratherisms. The wording may not
be exact:

"Bush is moving though Dixie faster than a Big Wheel through a cotton field."

"Gore must be as cross as a snapping turtle."

"Polls(?) have been veering and wobbling so much that even NASA and the
Cosmodrome can't track 'em in some cases."


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Thu Nov  9 18:50:18 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 13:50:18 -0500
Subject: money as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
In-Reply-To: <20001109115226.A23269@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.135018.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse,

The Internet Movie Database lists Liman as the director but credits Jon
Favreau with the screenplay, but in addition to this factoid, I remember
seeing Favreau on Letterman following the film's release.  When asked about
his characters' usage of money, Favreau said that he made it up.  He wanted
his group to have their own collection of slang terms, and the adjectival
use of money was one of the results.  He didn't, BTW, use the term
"adjectival."

> From: Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 11:52:26 -0500
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: money as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
>
>> I think you should check out the movie "Swingers." It's a Nineties white kid
>> cult
>> classic, and although "money" is used as in "You are so money" in a notable
>> scene, I
>> suspect you'll find your quasi-pronoun usage there as well.
>
> You won't.
>
> Also, re the notable usage in the film, while Doug Liman (author/
> director) has claimed that he did not invent the usage, but heard
> it an incorporated it into the film, I have never seen an
> example of it that did not refer to the film (with the possible
> exception of glossaries that are not explicitely tied to the
> film but clearly derive the usage from it). I'd welcome any
> genuine cites.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED


From monickels at EXCITE.COM  Thu Nov  9 17:20:09 2000
From: monickels at EXCITE.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 09:20:09 -0800
Subject: Shalom Chaver
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.092009.0800.>

Regarding shalom chaver: I just spoke with a fellow student who is fluent in
Hebrew and a regular visitor to Israel. She confirms that the phrase has
caught on: bumperstickers, t-shirts, that sort of thing. Very much a
catch-phrase and a reminder of the horrible assassination of Rabin.

Perhaps the new "Ich bin ein berliner?"





_______________________________________________________
Say Bye to Slow Internet!
http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov  9 19:54:15 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 14:54:15 -0500
Subject: Externships
In-Reply-To: <cb.b008737.2739eff2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.145415.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 7 Nov 2000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>     "Externships" is in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL, 7 November 2000, pg.
> B18, col. 1.  I haven't yet checked Barnhart.  A quick Google check shows the
> term used more frequently in universities than in business.

I think "externship" is a very common, well-established term.  W10
includes it, with a 1945 dating.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Nov  9 23:35:33 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:35:33 -0600
Subject: heads up!
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.173533.0600.>

"...thanks for the heads up!"
Twice in recent weeks I've received e-mails with the expression "heads up" meaning
"warning."  Maybe this has already been discussed on ADS-L.  I'm not suggesting that it's
brand new, just that it is worth noting.
DMLance


From cbernstn at POSTOFFICE.MEMPHIS.EDU  Fri Nov 10 00:31:31 2000
From: cbernstn at POSTOFFICE.MEMPHIS.EDU (Cynthia Bernstein)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 18:31:31 -0600
Subject: international PhD's
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.183131.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Would anyone have or know how I might obtain statistics showing the number of
> international students enrolled in U.S. Ph.D. programs in linguistics?

Cynthia Bernstein
cbernstn at memphis.edu

>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Nov  9 23:24:37 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 17:24:37 -0600
Subject: HDAS
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.172437.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Just wondering;  How much money is needed to print the rest of _
(Random House) Historical Dictionary of American Slang_?   Random House
evidently wants to make a profit (not unreasonable), and Jonathan Lighter
would like royalties (also not unreasonable).  How much would each  copy of
the third volume have to sell for to satisfy both parties?

    If publication of the entire third volume isn't now possible, how about
printing half of it? Or a quarter of it?  What other sources of funding
might be available?  If the scholarly community and a representative from
Random House would engage in some brainstorming, might a solution or at
least a partial solution emerge?

-----Gerald Cohen





gcohen at umr.edu


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Nov 10 01:59:59 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:59:59 -0500
Subject: money as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
In-Reply-To: <B6305C19.4B59%highbob@mindspring.com>; from
 highbob@MINDSPRING.COM on Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 01:50:18PM -0500
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.205959.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> The Internet Movie Database lists Liman as the director but credits Jon
> Favreau with the screenplay, but in addition to this factoid, I remember
> seeing Favreau on Letterman following the film's release.  When asked about
> his characters' usage of money, Favreau said that he made it up.  He wanted
> his group to have their own collection of slang terms, and the adjectival
> use of money was one of the results.  He didn't, BTW, use the term
> "adjectival."

Hmm. That surprises me, since I asked Doug Liman directly about
this (a friend of mine went to college with him) and he said then
that he had heard it in Los Angeles and hadn't made it up.

But whether deliberately coined or not, the fact remains that
the usage seems not to have any currency outside of specific
references to the movie.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov  9 13:33:27 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 21:33:27 +0800
Subject: WOTY candidate
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.213327.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from countless news reports (maybe not a brand-new word, but...):

butterfly ballot

Larry


From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Fri Nov 10 03:22:05 2000
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:22:05 -0500
Subject: WOTY candidate
In-Reply-To: <p04320401b63058034476@[130.132.231.226]>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.222205.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:33 AM 11/9/00, Laurence Horn wrote:
>from countless news reports (maybe not a brand-new word, but...):
>
>butterfly ballot
>
>Larry


They've apparently been around since the Flood, and are widely used in
rural Ohio.  I encountered one for the first time on Tuesday, and found it
confusing even though ours didn't have that weirdo staggered column on the
right side.  The whole procedure was so awkward that I only voted three times.



--
Evan Morris
words1 at word-detective.com
http://www.word-detective.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 10 04:53:47 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 23:53:47 EST
Subject: The Restaurateur and The American Hotelier
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.235347.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     I'll probably go to the Culinary Institute of America on Monday.  The
library part of their web site (www.ciachef.edu/library.html) was available
yesterday, but died today.
    I've been finishing up THE RESTAURATEUR AND THE AMERICAN HOTELIER.

15 April 1927, R&AH, pg. 49, col. 2--You can't go wrong with the motto "The
Patron is Always Right."

11 June 1927, R&AH, pg. 18, col. 2:
   _Service With A Smile_
   Eureka, Cal.--The Marylee Cafe has been opened at 224 F street, and is now
catering to the public.
   "Service with a smile" is the proprietor's motto.

30 July 1927, R&AH, pg. 10, col. 2--...there are "stiffs" (those who do not
tip at all) in both sexes.

12 November 1927, R&AH, pg. 74, col. 2--"Famous For Fine Food."  (Motto of
Olmsted Grill, Washington, D. C.--ed.)

12 November 1927, R&AH, pg. 84, col. 1--_Popular Prices for the Family
Restaurant._
(OED "popular prices," "family restaurant"?--ed.)

12 November 1927, R&AH, pg. 97, col. 1--_An Italian Atmosphere that is REAL_
Not pseudo, greets the visitor of Mori's, at Bleecker Street and Broadway,
New York City, and the food, rare Italian viands, seems all the better for
its appropriate setting. (...) Here the epicure may obtain the savory Chicken
a la Cacciatora, done to a turn in the way that only Mori has of doing it.
(Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA has 1930s for chicken cacciatori--ed.)

26 November 1927, R&AH, pg. 4, col. 2:
_Ordering by the Marble_
_System in Restaurants_
   The successful waitress in the various sandwich shops in the Times Square
section in New York City must know her marbles.

4 February 1928, R&AH, pg. 3, col. 2--Melted cheese and bacon between two
slices of white bread is called a "Dutch Treat." (...)  In the last year the
"toastwich", or toasted sandwich, has risen to high favor.

7 April 1928, R&AH, pg. 42, col. 1--..."The kind that Mother Used to Make."
(...) ...New England clam chowder...

28 April 1928, R&AH, pg. 50, col. 2--"Only the Best" Is the Demand of the
Average American in Hotels....

28 April 1928, R&AH, pg. 61, col. 2--"Give the People what they want when
they want it" is the keynote of the service of the Reading Terminal
Restaurant, in Philadelphia....

26 May 1928, R&AH, pg. 14, col. 2--The secret, however, is to administer a
good drenching of that "dragon's blood," without which most Oriental dishes
seem incomplete, and then it becomes reasonably palatable.
(Dragon's blood=soy sauce--ed.)

9 June 1928, R&AH, pg. 5, col. 1--"VENEZ et Vous Reviendrez" is the slogan of
Maison Fichl, well-known French restaurant at 1225 Broadway, New York.  The
literal translation of Jose Fichl's slogan is:  "Come and you will come
again."

23 June 1928, R&AH, pg. 7, col. 1:
_The Advantages of A Children's Menu As A Regular Feature_
   (...)(Col. 2--ed.)
   The Shepard Colonial Restaurant in Boston was one of the first to realize
the need for specially prepared food for children.

30 June 1928, R&AH, pg. 8, col. 3--Clam Chowder Manhattan.  (Schiller Cafe,
Philadelphia--ed.)

1 September 1928, R&AH, pg. 4, col. 2--"Cocktail parties abound, and we revel
in an excess we never dreamed of in pre-prohibition days."
(OED has "cocktail parties" also in 1928--ed.)

29 September 1928, R&AH, pg. 4, col. 2--According to the Swiss, if the holes
in cheese, which they term "eyes," are small, the process of fermentation has
been slow or incomplete, while very large eyes indicate too rapid
fermentation.

6 October 1928, R&AH, pg. 10, col. 1--Cheese Balls.

10 November 1928, R&AH, pg. 77, col. 1--"MAKE my home your home" is a slogan
that is always kept alive at the Hotel Lafayette, Buffalo, N. Y.

22 December 1928, R&AH, pg. 4, col. 1:
   One of the best known Italian dining places, citing an example, is Zucca's
at 118 West 49th Street.  The proper name of this restaurant is Zucca's
Italian Winter Gardden but New Yorkers know it best by the name of its
proprietor.
   (Col. 3--ed.)
   ...accompanied by Mr. Zucca's famous green spaghetti, which is the
specialty of the house.
   _Famous Green Spaghetti_
   The green spaghetti and noodles are made of pure wheat flour, eggs and
spinach.

2 March 1929, R&AH, pg. 15:
_THIS SURE_
_IS NEWS_
_TO ME_
(Feature section had this regular header--ed.)

8 June 1929, R&AH, pg. 13:
_How A Shore Dinner_
_Establishment_
_Became Internationally Famous_
(More about the Villepigue Inn at Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn--ed.)

15 June 1929, R&AH, pg. 9:
_Ritz-Carlton Hotel Chef_
_Explains Popularity of_
_French Cooking_
(Chef Louis Diat explains everything BUT what I was looking
for--vichysoisse!!--ed.)

24 August 1929, R&AH, pg. 23, col. 3:
_BARTENDERS NOW NAMED_
_BEVERAGE DISPENSERS_


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 10 05:18:36 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 00:18:36 EST
Subject: Oyster Bar; Oyster Cocktail
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.001836.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     From THE RESTAURATEUR AND THE AMERICAN HOTELIER, 9 June 1928, pg. 17,
col. 1:

   Derouet (Leony C. Derouet, Hotel Commodore chef--ed.) is said to have been
the originator of (Col. 2--ed.) the "oystar (sic) bar" idea, establishing
what is thought to have been the first of its kind at the old Grand Union
Hotel.
(OED had 1878 for "oyster bar"--ed.)

     From THE RESTAURATEUR AND THE AMERICAN HOTELIER, 26  May 1928, pg. 4,
col. 3:

_The Origin of the_
_Oyster Cocktail_
   The oyster cocktail originated in San Francisco about 1866.  One day in
one of those rustic restaurants, gold diggers' rendezvous on the Barbary
Coast, a husky miner was welcomed as a rude guest to the rude joint.  He
order an old-fashioned whisky cocktail and a plate of California raw.
   After drinking the whisky cocktail this hungry guest without more ado
placed the little California raw oysters in the same glass with some tomato
catsup, Worcester and pepper sauce and promptly disposed of the appetizing
repast.
   The restaurant keeper looked on with great astonishment, then asked "What
do you call it?"  And the miner, with grand gusto, replied: "Oyster cocktail."
   Next day without delay the keeper wrote on the bar mirror: "Oyster
cocktail.  Four bits per glass!"
   In a few days every joint on the Barbary Coast began to serve oyster
cocktails.  Then gradually the best hotels and cafes in San Francisco got the
idea and there appeared on their menus not only oyster cocktails, but
different kinds of seafood cocktails as well.
(OED has 1895 of "oyster cocktail"--ed.)


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Fri Nov 10 05:42:30 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 00:42:30 -0500
Subject: money as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
In-Reply-To: <20001109205959.B15880@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.004230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree, Jesse, and I'm not calling your conversation/interview into
question.  I'm just citing the IMDb and also the video sleeve, as well as
the conversation I saw with Favreau on television.  In all the times I've
heard individuals use "money" in this manner, they'd in each case seen the
movie and were referencing it.  The usage was semi-hot a couple years ago;
now, nothing.

> From: Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 20:59:59 -0500
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: money as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
>
> But whether deliberately coined or not, the fact remains that
> the usage seems not to have any currency outside of specific
> references to the movie.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Nov 10 05:56:13 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:56:13 -0700
Subject: Dan Rather's homey comparisons
In-Reply-To: <39FA004400108F7D@phobos.email.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.225613.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dan Rather is from Texas, and periodically likes to affect a "down home"
style to counteract his Gore-like stiffness. I think it was painfully
obvious that he had asked a member of his staff to come up with such a
list of comparisons, and was reading them from a monitor as the occasion
allowed. The full Damon Runyon quote showed that this was not something he
had learned from his daddy or granny.

I usually prefer CBS for coverage (I like all the Texans on their news
staff), but I found that NBC was miles ahead of everyone else on the
Florida debacle, so stuck with them. They were talking directly with the
secretary of state and attorney general and getting first-hand data when
Dan Rather was wondering an hour later where the confusing quotes were
coming from, and Peter Jennings did not seem any better informed.

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 10 05:55:56 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 00:55:56 EST
Subject: Glitzocracy
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.005556.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the NEW YORK OBSERVER, 13 November 2000, pg. 1, col. 1:

_GLITZOCRACY AWAITS_
_HILLARY AT ELAINE'S_
_ON TRIUMPHAL NIGHT_

   There is also one "New Labour glitzocracy" from the 11-9-1999 GUARDIAN on
the Dow Jones database.
   Maybe I should move to another state.  Maybe Missouri.  Hillary would have
lost to some dead person.


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Fri Nov 10 06:54:38 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:54:38 -0800
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <009c01c04a68$17c1b980$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <THU.9.NOV.2000.225438.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In Woody Allen's "Annie Hall" (1977), a character says this:
>
>"Not only is he a great agent, but he really gives good meetings."

When was the Gene Wilder/Richard Pryor movie "Silver Streak"?  In it,
the Jill Clayburgh character explains that she got her job because
she "gave good phone."

Rima


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 10 07:10:53 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 01:10:53 CST
Subject: WOTY candidate
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.011053.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>They've apparently been around since the Flood, and are widely used in
>rural Ohio. I encountered one for the first time on Tuesday, and found it
>confusing even though ours didn't have that weirdo staggered column on the
>right side.
>The whole procedure was so awkward that I only voted three times.

I remember using it the very first time I voted, 1970. They were quite new
then, and all the thing. It's essentially a punch card. Yeah. Punch cards.
Archaic, but not quite since the flood.

One of the talking heads likened the flotilla of Washington lawyers coming
in by chartered jets unto the greatest of all ambulance chases, the Bohpal
disaster in India.

Slightly OT, but as a pundit, I think Chris Matthews' career has taken a
plunge. Several women have mentioned how abrasive he is, and how they don't
like him.




_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


From fodde at UNICA.IT  Fri Nov 10 12:14:17 2000
From: fodde at UNICA.IT (Luisanna Fodde)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:14:17 +0100
Subject: Standardization of English in the US
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.131417.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am minterested in the development of a standard language in the US. A part
from the examples of Franklin and Noah Webster, is  there any critical work
on the subject?
Thanks
Luisanna Fodde
Italy


From philbrown at JUNO.COM  Fri Nov 10 14:20:55 2000
From: philbrown at JUNO.COM (Phil Brown)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 09:20:55 -0500
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 8 Nov 2000 to 9 Nov 2000 (#2000-315)
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.092055.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Slate or Salon had a list of Election Night (or Morning) Ratherisms.

On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 00:03:48 -0500 Automatic digest processor
<LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> writes:


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Fri Nov 10 18:48:10 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 13:48:10 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <a04330102b630f5a5acce@[216.185.15.183]>
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.134810.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Rima, SILVER STREAK was released in 1976.

bob

> From: Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm at SLIP.NET>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 22:54:38 -0800
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
>
> When was the Gene Wilder/Richard Pryor movie "Silver Streak"?  In it,
> the Jill Clayburgh character explains that she got her job because
> she "gave good phone."


From jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM  Fri Nov 10 19:02:13 2000
From: jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM (Jeffrey William McKeough)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 14:02:13 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
In-Reply-To: <B631AD19.4B89%highbob@mindspring.com> from "Bob Haas" at Nov 10,
 2000 01:48:10 PM
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.140213.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking of the subject line, Friday's _Jerusalem Post_
(www.jpost.com) has a sidebar photo of President Clinton with a
caption reading "Shalom haver".

--
Jeffrey William McKeough   For Drainage, Punch Out The X: X
jwm at spdcc.com  (or spdcc.net if that bounces)
"Well it was more than 5 years ago for me, but if you
spent a lot of time moving really fast you may be OK." -Oly


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 11 01:54:00 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 20:54:00 EST
Subject: When It's _Cocktail Time_ In Cuba (1928)
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.205400.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WHEN IT'S _COCKTAIL TIME_ IN CUBA
by Basil Woon
New York: Horace Liveright: 1928

   Cuba during the U.S. Prohibition era!  Drinks!  Cigars!  Women!  "Rum,
Roulette & Racing."  Boy, it sure brings back memories.
   Wait a minute--I was never in Cuba in the 1920s!
   This book is a good read, for the cocktails and more.  The NYPL edition is
falling apart, with many loose pages.

Pg. 33--Prohibition in the United States may have added to the number of
"American" bars, but the corner _bodega_ has always flourished.  A _bodega_
is part grocery, part tobacco-shop, and part saloon.  Generally it is a
restaurant as well.

Pg. 38--The earnest drinkers of Havana have certain preferences in the way of
refreshments.  The most popular and most healthful drink is called _daiquiri_
and is merely bacardi with lime-juice, shaken up until the shaker is covered
with frost.
   The original cane-planters of Cuba and Louisiana had a drink which they
made out of rum and squeezed limes, ice, a dash of grenadine, and
siphon-water.  It was drunk out of tall frosted glasses and was called
"Planter's Punch."
   Planter's Punch was the usual drink of the Cuban Americans, but down in
Santiago where a group used to meet in the Venus bar every morning at eight
o'clock it was modified to exclude the grenadine and siphon-water, and was
made in a shaker.  Instead of Jamaica rum the pure Cuban bacardi, distilled
in (Pg. 39--ed.) Santiago from molasses, was used.  The boys used to have
three or four every morning.
   Most of them worked in the Daiquiri mines, the superintendent of which was
a gentleman named Cox--Jennings Cox.  One morning in the Venus Cox said:
"Boys, we've been drinking this delicious little drink for some time, but
we've never named it.  Let's christen it now!"
   The boys milled around a bit and finally Cox said: "I'll tell you what,
lads--we all work at Daiquiri and we all drank this drink first there.  Let's
call it a _daiquiri_!"
   The _daiquiri_ is now the best-known drink in Cuba.  This recipe for the
real _daiquiri_ was given me by Facundo Bacardi and confirmed by one of the
men who was present at the christening: half one lime, squeezed onto one
teaspoonful of sugar; pour in one whiskey-glassful of bacardi; plenty of ice;
shake until shaker is thoroughly frosted outside.  Meanwhile, chill a tall
wine-glass of the kind known as _flute_, fill it with shaven ice, and pour in
the mixture.  Must be drunk frozen or is not good.  The "bacardi cocktail"
and pronounced "bacARdi," common in New York and Europe, is unknown in Cuba.
The proper pronunciation of the name "Bacardi" stressed the last syllable.
Later on, in Santiago, we shall see how the rum is made.
   (No, we won't.  Pg. 40--ed.)
   The two other cocktails mostly in demand in Havana are the _presidente_
and the _Mary Pickford_. The _presidente_ is made with half bacardi and half
French vermouth, with a dash of either curacoa or grenadine.  It is the
aristocrat of cocktails and is the one preferred by the better class of
Cuban.  The _Mary Pickford_ (OED?--ed.), invented during a visit to Havana of
the screen favorite by Fred Kaufman, is two-thirds pineapple-juice and
one-third bacardi, with a dash of grenadine.  Both cocktails are sweetish and
should be well shaken.  The pineapple juice must be fresh-squeezed.

Pg. 43--The lucky part came when the Havana city government some years ago
appointed a "sanitary commission" to inquire into the cleanliness of the
_bodegas_.  The less said about the actual workings of this commission the
better.  But it happened that "Pop" Roberds, proprietor of the Havana
_Evening News_, and Joe were having a little squabble about this time over a
matter of advertising.  "Pop" (Pg. 44-ed.) thought Joe should advertise with
him, and Joe thought differently about it.  "Pop," being an old-style
newspaper man, very properly thought himself affronted, and forthwith wrote
an editorial in which he suggested to the Sanitary Commission that they might
with profit extend their investigations to include "a place on Zuletta Street
which should be called 'Sloppy' Joe's."  The name caught on almost at once,
and Joe, although privately peeved at "Pop," realized that he had a good
thing.  He enlarged his place, and at a moment when drinks in Havana were
costing seventy-five cents apiece (it was just afte
r the Volstead Act became operative in the United States), suddenly cut the
price in half.  The resultant business forced him to enlarge his place again.
 "Sloppy Joe's" became a byword and Joe used the slogan on his saloon sign
and in his advertising.  Distinguished writers from New York and further
afield wrote about the place and money came in so fast that Joe again
enlarged.  He now employs eleven bartenders.  He advertises in _The Evening
News_ and "Pop" Roberds is a regular client.  The place is big, noisy, has an
almost exclusively tourist trade, and is frequented for refreshments after
the theater.  It has little really Cuban about it and might before the war
have been on Third Avenue, New York.
("Sloppy Joe" is also the name of a sandwich--ed.)

Pg. 49--Slim young senoritas, whose fathers are literally "sugar daddies,"
are very alluring in their Paris frocks.

Pg. 57--Cocoanuts, mangos, bananas and mameys (OED?--ed.)(a sort of
tough-skinned apricot grow wild, in such profusion that they are more a
nuisance than a blessing.

Pg. 126--THE CASINO: "WHERE THEY GET YOU COMIN' AN' GOIN' AN' MAKE YOU LIKE
IT."

Pg. 144--..."got religion."

Pg. 162--...filled with _chulos_--Cuban equivalent to the European _gigolo_.

Pg. 175--..."what's the big i-dear."

Pg. 182--..."life of the party."

Pg. 183--Takes his "Cuba Libre"* only occasionally. (...)
*_Cuba Libre_: a highball contrived of coca-cola and bacardi rum.
(OED has an 1898 "Cuba Libre" citation of "water and brown sugar," then skips
to 1937--ed.)

Pg. 222--..."all the comforts of home."

Pg. 246--It was at the Venus, you will remember, that Jennings S. Cox and
others baptized the _daiquiri_ cocktail.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 11 03:01:54 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 22:01:54 EST
Subject: Restaurant Man (1954-1960)
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.220154.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I checked THE RESTAURANT MAN at the end of its run (about 1920-1960).  It
contained some food items, some drink items, and some epigrams/humor.
   I'll read more of THE MIXER & SERVER (in the Science, Industry & Business
Library) next week.  The LOS ANGELES FREE PRESS is physically located in the
genealogy division (the newspaper division will no longer retrieve it for me)
and I'll continue that next week as well.

December 1954, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 12, col. 2--Where there has been a large
influx of Puerto Ricans the taverns have been hit very hard as the so-called
"Spics" are a low income group and with large families can't afford to
patronize bars.

February-March 1955, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 12, cols. 1-3--(The story of Irish
coffee.  John Boning, the director of the Bartenders School, 201 West 49th
Street, NY, wrote a regular column for the RESTAURANT MAN, but I didn't find
much worth recording--ed.)

August-September 1955, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 28 ad for New York's Famous
Knickerbocker Beer--LESS "FILLING."
(Tastes great?--ed.)

June-July 1956, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 11, col. 2--He has coined the slogan "The
Home of Sizzling Steaks" served on platters to a discriminating clientele.
(Fred Wolff of the Gourmet Restaurant of Philadelphia.  See "Don't sell the
steak, sell the sizzle" in the non-working ADS-L archives--ed.)

August 1956, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 3, col. 1--It is the type of salesmanship
expressed by the late Willie Howard, the famous Broadway comedian, when he
said, to sell a man a coat who wants to buy a coat isn't salesmanship, but to
sell a coat to a man who doesn't want to buy one--that's salesmanship.

August 1956, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 18, col. 3--Never question your wife's
judgment--look at who she married!

Sept.-October 1956, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 24, col. 3--A bigamist is a man who
makes the same mistake twice.

Sept-October 1956, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 26, col. 3--SAY IT WITH A SMILE!
(Poem--ed.)

Sept.-October 1956, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 27, col. 1--(Drawing of a chef.  He
winks his eye and gives the "OK" sign--ed.)

March 1957, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 20, col. 1--In the old days before
Prohibition the bars of the Grand Union, Belmont and Manhattan hotels, now
but memories, were veritable beehives before train time.  They were nicknamed
"coaling stations" where comuters got steam up for the travel homeward.

Januuary-February 1958, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 23, col. 2:
_CREPES SUZETTE MADE_
_MUCH DIFFERENT TODAY_
   Crepes Suzette were originated by Prosper Montague, then Chef at the Cafe
de Paris, in Monte Carlo.  They were concocted for King Edward VII of England
and named after Suzette, the beautiful and attractive flower girl His Majesty
admired.
   Actually the crepes as they are made today are far different from the
crepes suzette recipe which is immortalized by Prosper Montague in his cook
book "Le grand livre de la Cuisine."  According to his recipe, into the
appareil goes Ciracao and Mandarine Sucre.  Then the crepes anre spread with
the following mixture, 100 grammes powder sugar, 1/20 of a litre of Curacao
and the juice of a mandarine, well combined.  The crepes are folded in 4 and
sprinkled with powder sugar.
(See my previous "crepes suzette" posting in the non-working ADS-L
archives--ed.)

March 1958, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 19, col. 3--Nothing is really work unless you
would rather be doing something else.

March (re-check--this copy is mangled) 1958, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 26, col.
2--A winner never quits and a quitter never wins.

Sept.-Oct. 1958, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 22, col. 3:
Said a monk, as he swung by his tail
To the little monks, female and male:
"From your offspring, my dears,
In a few million years,
May evolve a professor in Yale!"

March-April 1960, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 3, col. 1--THE SIZZLING SIXTIES.
THERE'S an old saying that a bad beginning frequently means a good ending.
Certainly the so-called "Sizzling Sixties," as the present decade has been
named, got off on the wrong foot.

May-June 1960, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 12, col. 3--DEMONSTRATE MICRO-WAVE COOKING
AT CONVENTION.  (The cooking is in "electronic" ovens--ed.)

Sept-Oct. 1960, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 20, col. 1--He who has Health has Hope,
and he who has Hope has everything.

COFFEE BREAK:

November 1954, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 17, col. 2--If you had mentioned "coffee
break" a couple of years or so ago, few people would have understood what you
were talking about, but that strange sounding term has now become very
familiar to our ears but somewhat ominous to cafeteria operators because they
have lost much of their former business to counter service restaurants and
luncheonettes on account of this so-called coffee break.  (BREAK up that
sentence!--ed.)  During the Korean War a shortage of office workers,
particularly stenographers, developed and there was considerable pirating and
switching of jobs for money considerations.  Some far-sighted office
personnel managers thought up the idea of giving the girls a break during the
morning for coffe (sic) and a snack, hence the name.  It worked very well as
a harmonizer and promoter of good employer-employee (Col. 3--ed.) relations
and was extended to the afternoon when another break was permitted.  Before
these breaks were instituted the average office w
orker had a good appetitie when lunch time arrived which he or she proceeded
to satisfy with some substantial food at a service restaurant or cafeteria to
carry them through till dinner time.  But that is all changed now and instead
of a regular meal they have a light snack for lunch now and another in the
afternoon.  So we seee thousands of office owrkers acting very much like
pigeons, always eating but always hungry.  That is why the cafeterias don't
get much of this business and why the Chock Full O' Nuts stores and similar
counter service places and soda luncheonettes in the office building
neighborhoods are crowded at nearly every hour of the day while the other
restaurants are practically empty in the mornings and early afternoons.  As
an illustration of the effects of these coffee breaks nearly all the new
restaurant construction is of the counter service and luncheonette type.

May 1955, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 19, col. 2:
_POLICE ORGANIZATION_
_ENDORSES COFFEE BREAK_
   The Fraternal Order of Police, 35,000 strong, have thrown their backing
behind a campaign to reduce automobile accidents during the summer months, by
urging motorists to make periodic stops for relaxation and coffee.
   (Col. 3--ed.)
   "For Safety's Sake--Stop--For a Coffee Break."

May 1955, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 22, col. 3:
_EMPLOYERS BREAKING_
_THE COFFEE-BREAK_
   It is human nature to abuse a privilege, so it is not strange that many
office workers who had been permitted by their employers to take a
coffee-break in the morning and another in the afternoon took advantage of
these breaks by staying away from their duties much longer than their
employers had inteded.  Consequently a number of office managers have
cancelled the privilege and have made arrangements with restaurants in their
immediate neighborhood to supple the coffee and other items to their offices.
(...)

January-February 1959, RESTAURANT MAN, pg. 16, col. 1:
_DOUBLE COFFEE BREAKS_
_NOW ALMOST UNIVERSAL_
   The majority of office workers in the United States and Canada now have
two coffee-breaks a day rather than one, the National Office Management
Association reported in a special bulletin to its 18,000 members. (...)

(OED has "coffee break" from 1951.  The hyphenated "coffee-break" is not
distinguished.  See previously "coffee break" postings in the non-working
ADS-L archives--ed.)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 10 15:35:23 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 23:35:23 +0800
Subject: Another WOTY candidate:  hanging chads
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.233523.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

According to CNN's Spin Room, the word of the day is "hanging
chads"--chads being those little cardboard thingies that hang
attached to the paper ballots if they're not punched all the way, and
are then hanging chads that may or may not affect the final balloting
in Florida when they're all hand-counted.

larry


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 11 04:38:16 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 23:38:16 EST
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
Message-ID: <FRI.10.NOV.2000.233816.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have been making notes every time I hear the word ALCOHOLIC pronounced, and
it seems to me that about 2% of the people I listen to say [aek at h)l at k]
invariantently, even when others in conversation with them consistently say
[aelk at h)l at k]. I'm not talking about vocalization of the [l], as in
[aeuk at h)l at k]; it just ain't there at all. Those who do not have the first [l]
do not seem to notice that they lack it, and those who listen to them speak
do not seem to notice the absence of the [l] (at least, nobody comments on
it). There does not seem to be any regional correlation (as there is with,
say, [hEp] for [hElp], and very little social correlation.

Anyone else notice this? Any explanation?


From lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU  Sat Nov 11 10:23:43 2000
From: lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU (Sonja L. Lanehart)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 05:23:43 -0500
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
In-Reply-To: <5b.dcb3d60.273e2738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.052343.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This feature occurs in my data from African American women who are
from the South. I recall hearing this pronunciation for as long as I
can remember.   --Sonja


>I have been making notes every time I hear the word ALCOHOLIC pronounced, and
>it seems to me that about 2% of the people I listen to say [aek at h)l at k]
>invariantently, even when others in conversation with them consistently say
>[aelk at h)l at k]. I'm not talking about vocalization of the [l], as in
>[aeuk at h)l at k]; it just ain't there at all. Those who do not have the first [l]
>do not seem to notice that they lack it, and those who listen to them speak
>do not seem to notice the absence of the [l] (at least, nobody comments on
>it). There does not seem to be any regional correlation (as there is with,
>say, [hEp] for [hElp], and very little social correlation.
>
>Anyone else notice this? Any explanation?


**************************************************************
Sonja L. Lanehart
Department of English                 706-542-2260 (office)
University of Georgia                 706-542-1261 (messages)
300 Park Hall                         706-542-2181 (fax)
Athens, GA 30602-6205                 lanehart at arches.uga.edu
**************************************************************


From janivars at BAHNHOF.SE  Sat Nov 11 11:29:07 2000
From: janivars at BAHNHOF.SE (Jan Ivarsson)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 12:29:07 +0100
Subject: The Restaurateur...: Vichysoisse (sic!)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.122907.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: den 10 november 2000 05:53
Subject: The Restaurateur and The American Hotelier
>
> 15 June 1929, R&AH, pg. 9:
> _Ritz-Carlton Hotel Chef_
> _Explains Popularity of_
> _French Cooking_
> (Chef Louis Diat explains everything BUT what I was looking
> for--vichysoisse!!--ed.)
>
What you are looking for is probably
Cr?me Vichyssoise (the placing of the extra -s- changes the pronunciation!)

Here is a recipe:(4 persons):

1 litre (a quart ) of clear soup
4 leeks
4 potatoes
1 onion in slices
1-2 tbsp of butter
1 decilitre of (thick) cream
A bunch of parsley, finely snipped
Salt and pepper

Cut the white of the leeks into thin slices. Fry leeks and onion lightly in the butter. Thin down with the soup.
Peel the potatoes, cut them into thin slices, put them and the parsley in the soup and boil till the potatoes become mash.
Strain the soup. Add the cream and bring to boiling. Add salt and pepper.
Strew finely snipped chives over the soup and serve, very hot or iced according to the season.

Vichyssois(e) means "from Vichy" and can be added to several local kinds of food.

Jan Ivarsson, Sweden


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Nov 11 13:30:44 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 08:30:44 -0500
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
In-Reply-To: <5b.dcb3d60.273e2738@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.083044.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I have been making notes every time I hear the word ALCOHOLIC pronounced, and
>it seems to me that about 2% of the people I listen to say [aek at h)l at k]
>invariantly, even when others in conversation with them consistently say
>[aelk at h)l at k]. I'm not talking about vocalization of the [l], as in
>[aeuk at h)l at k]; it just ain't there at all. Those who do not have the first [l]
>do not seem to notice that they lack it, and those who listen to them speak
>do not seem to notice the absence of the [l] (at least, nobody comments on
>it). There does not seem to be any regional correlation (as there is with,
>say, [hEp] for [hElp], and very little social correlation.

My initial impression is that this is just a 'lazy' pronunciation,
comparable  -- for example -- to 'antarctic' /&nartIk/ [& = 'ae' ligature],
which I've heard often. I think you'll find the same casual acceptance of
this, with one speaker saying /&nartIk/, another /&ntarktIk/, nobody much
noticing the distinction.

Is there any correlation between the elision of the /l/ and the 'northern'
high-front pronunciation of /&/?

Do we hear 'calculator' /k&kj at lejt@r/ with elided /l/ sometimes? I think so.

Maybe the silent 'l' often found before /k/ -- as in 'walk', 'folk',
'falcon' (variant), etc., etc. -- shows a general tendency for /lk/ > /k/?

-- Doug Wilson


From sagehen at SLIC.COM  Sat Nov 11 15:16:34 2000
From: sagehen at SLIC.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 10:16:34 -0500
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.101634.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> writes:

>My initial impression is that this is just a 'lazy' pronunciation,
>comparable  -- for example -- to 'antarctic' /&nartIk/ [& = 'ae' ligature],
>which I've heard often. I think you'll find the same casual acceptance of
>this, with one speaker saying /&nartIk/, another /&ntarktIk/, nobody much
>noticing the distinction.

>Is there any correlation between the elision of the /l/ and the 'northern'
>high-front pronunciation of /&/?

>Do we hear 'calculator' /k&kj at lejt@r/ with elided /l/ sometimes? I think so.

>Maybe the silent 'l' often found before /k/ -- as in 'walk', 'folk',
>'falcon' (variant), etc., etc. -- shows a general tendency for /lk/ > /k/?

>-- Doug Wilson
---------------
I also often hear "vunerable"  for vulnerable, and less frequently,
"chirdren" for children.
A. Murie


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Nov 11 17:16:53 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 09:16:53 -0800
Subject: Another WOTY candidate:  hanging chads
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.091653.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

fascinating.  here in california i've seen "chad" used only
as a mass noun.  so it would have to be "hanging bits/pieces of chad".

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Nov 11 19:53:56 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 13:53:56 CST
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.135356.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>fascinating.  here in california i've seen "chad" used only as a mass noun.
>  so it would have to be "hanging bits/pieces of chad".
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

The word is new to me, but I see the online AH and MW both treat it as
countable.

I wonder if the etymology is an alteration of 'chaff', the stuff that
falls/blows away when threshing wheat (AHD4's sense 1). The semantic space
is right. Curiously, MW does not have this sense; the sense it does have is
unfamiliar to me.

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 11 21:30:30 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 16:30:30 EST
Subject: Safire (& assistant) Watch
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.163030.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Elizabeth Phillips's name is not in the list of ADS members in the latest
NADS.  She is William Safire's assistant.
    Safire's assistants do not _have_ to join the ADS.  However, I've made it
a standing request (for quite a while now) that they _do_ join.  If they
can't afford it, I've offered to pay their ADS membership.  I've sent
certified letters and self-addressed stamped envelopes about this.
   The errors in Safire's 9-17-00 column have not been corrected.  It was a
column that included my name.
   I have written twice to magazine at nytimes.com.  I have written to
letters at nytimes.com.  I have written twice to the e-mail address for New York
Times corrections.  I have written to feedback at nytimes.com.  I have written
to a New York Times spokeperson on Abuzz.com.  And, again, I have written
directly to William Safire's assistant.
   There has been no reply.
   This is an insult not only to me, but to this entire organization.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Nov 11 09:39:18 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 17:39:18 +0800
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
In-Reply-To: <F69LYu7AHfo98xKLVXf00000cce@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.173918.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>fascinating.  here in california i've seen "chad" used only as a mass noun.
>>  so it would have to be "hanging bits/pieces of chad".
>>
>>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>
>The word is new to me, but I see the online AH and MW both treat it as
>countable.
>
>I wonder if the etymology is an alteration of 'chaff', the stuff that
>falls/blows away when threshing wheat (AHD4's sense 1). The semantic space
>is right. Curiously, MW does not have this sense; the sense it does have is
>unfamiliar to me
>
>_________________________________________________________________________

The AHD4/online AHD just has it as "origin unknown", and I read its
definition ("scraps or bits of paper, such as...the tiny rectangles
punched out from data cards") as favoring a mass over a count
interpretation (or why wouldn't the definition be "a scrap or bit of
paper..."?).  So it seems like the AHD shares Arnold's mass sense.
The OED doesn't know from chad(s), except for a jolly but irrelevant
item.  (See below.)  Actually, I can imagine a cartoon of Mr. Chad
captioned
  "Wot, no president?"

--larry (who only knew of Mr. Chad as Mr. Jeremy's other half)
================
Mr. Chad. The figure of a human head appearing above a wall, etc.,
with the caption `Wot, no --?', as a protest against a shortage or
the like.

        1945 Sunday Express 2 Dec. 2/3 What is the origin of that
peculiarly laughable figure called Chad we see so often scribbled
across our walls?

        1946 Times 1 Apr. 5/4 Mr. Chad probably went through a number
of evolutions at the hands of a vast number of people before reaching
the present state and can claim no
        one man as creator. `Wot! No father,' it might well complain.

        1950 M. Kennedy Feast 220 She drew a picture of Mr. Chad on
the terrace wall saying: `Wot? No black amber?'

        1965 Oxford Mail 28 Sept. 6 The person..staring chad-like in
indolence across the desk-tops.


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Sat Nov 11 23:01:44 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 18:01:44 -0500
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.180144.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Supposedly this jargon file dates from 27 July 1993

http://www.th-soft.com/zzJargon/

but both 'chad' and 'chad box' are mentioned at:

http://www.th-soft.com/zzJargon/C.htm#chad  (chaff is also mentioned)

On the just noted page, some synonyms are mentioned, as well as a
possible origin, related to the use of Chadless keypunch.

A variation (Army slang) at:
http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/c.html#chad_box (see 'chad', below
the entry for 'chad box')
===================

True, there are a variety of such 'dictionaries' on the net.  This note
does not make a claim as to the accuracy of information presented at the
above links.

George S. Cole    gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sun Nov 12 00:29:04 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 19:29:04 -0500
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
In-Reply-To: <p04320403b632c10e162b@[130.132.245.149]>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.192904.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 05:39 PM 11/11/00 +0800, you wrote:
>>>fascinating.  here in california i've seen "chad" used only as a mass noun.
>>>  so it would have to be "hanging bits/pieces of chad".
>>>
>>>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>>
>>The word is new to me, but I see the online AH and MW both treat it as
>>countable.
>>
>>I wonder if the etymology is an alteration of 'chaff', the stuff that
>>falls/blows away when threshing wheat (AHD4's sense 1). The semantic space
>>is right. Curiously, MW does not have this sense; the sense it does have is
>>unfamiliar to me
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________________
>
>The AHD4/online AHD just has it as "origin unknown", and I read its
>definition ("scraps or bits of paper, such as...the tiny rectangles
>punched out from data cards") as favoring a mass over a count
>interpretation (or why wouldn't the definition be "a scrap or bit of
>paper..."?).  So it seems like the AHD shares Arnold's mass sense.
>The OED doesn't know from chad(s), except for a jolly but irrelevant
>item.  (See below.)  Actually, I can imagine a cartoon of Mr. Chad
>captioned
>  "Wot, no president?"
>
>--larry (who only knew of Mr. Chad as Mr. Jeremy's other half)
>================
>Mr. Chad. The figure of a human head appearing above a wall, etc.,
>with the caption `Wot, no --?', as a protest against a shortage or
>the like.
>
>        1945 Sunday Express 2 Dec. 2/3 What is the origin of that
>peculiarly laughable figure called Chad we see so often scribbled
>across our walls?
>
>        1946 Times 1 Apr. 5/4 Mr. Chad probably went through a number
>of evolutions at the hands of a vast number of people before reaching
>the present state and can claim no
>        one man as creator. `Wot! No father,' it might well complain.
>
>        1950 M. Kennedy Feast 220 She drew a picture of Mr. Chad on
>the terrace wall saying: `Wot? No black amber?'
>
>        1965 Oxford Mail 28 Sept. 6 The person..staring chad-like in
>indolence across the desk-tops.

Reminds me of a recent issue of _The Nation_ , where the "What, me worry?"
of Mad Magazine was parodied.  Alfred E. Neumann was made to look vaguely
(well, not so vaguely) like G.W., with a sign on him saying "Worry."

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 12 02:19:11 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 21:19:11 EST
Subject: This Must Be the Place (1937)
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.211911.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THIS MUST BE THE PLACE
MEMOIRS OF JIMMIE THE BARMAN
(James Charters)
As told to Morrill Cody
With an introduction by Ernest Hemingway
Lee Furman, Inc., New York, 1937

   Paris in the 1920s.
   That must be the place.  Jimmy Charters worked Le Dingo at
Montparnasse...I yesterday posted information from a book about Cuba in the
1920s.
   This book contains "homos," but not "gay."

Pg. 21---...the writer Sam Putnam calls my "Liverpool grin," a perpetual
expression of my desire to be sympathetic.

Pg. 80--The French workmen called it _lait de tigre_--tiger milk!  It
(Pernod--ed.) is really the same sort of thing as the imitation absinthe
which is made in New Orleans.  It is a clear, pale green liquid as you pour
it in the glass, but when you add water to it, it turns a milky, greenish
color.  The taste is that of licorice.

pg. 89--One of the mystery men of those days was an American named Leaming,
who claimed to have been a monk in Russia and was in Paris simply for a rest
from "monking."

Pg. 96--Hilaire Hiler, who has made a collection of Western songs, was very
much interested in Les's comments on them.  For instance, Les insisted that
the original name of "Frankie and Johnnie" was "Frankie and Albert."
   "Kansas city," he said, "had a district known as the Bottoms, full of
railroad yards, packing houses, tanneries, factories, with a big colored
population and a famous tenderloin or red-light district.  Frankie was a real
girl who lived there.  Albert was her sweetheart, well known in the
underworld, a celebrity as it were, and a sensationalist to the extent of
driving spotted polo ponies, tandem style, to a high trap, with two
thoroughbred bulldogs beside him.  Always conspicuous, he had quite a
following amongst the fair sex, and being constantly overcome by temptation,
was unfaithful to the girl friend.  The result was that he stopped a couple
of slugs.  The tragedy is explained in the song.
   "In singing the song today so many people speak of Frankie's 'gorty-four
gun.'  It should be 'forty-one gun,' because in those days Colt manufactured
(Pg. 97--ed.) something between a thirty-eight and a forty-four.  A forty-one
is just about the kind of gun a gal _would_ carry."
   In reference to the "Engineer's Song," Les said, "This was originally sung
by the colored brakeman and fireman on the old K.C. Railroad, now part of the
Frisco system, running between Birmingham, Alabama, and Memphis, Tennessee.
The song later became known as 'Casey Jones.'"
   Regarding the song "Stackerlee," the late Palmer Jones once told Hiler
that this song originated in Memphis shortly after the murder of the
notorious gambler, Billy Lyons, by his best friend and comrade, William
"Stacker" Lee.  The word "stacker" doubtless refers to his habits when
playing cards.  Les, in commenting on the same song, said, "Stackerlee was no
doubt a real bad man.  This is a song about a levee gambler in St. Louis who
had a heart as hard as granite and was so tough you couldn't manicure him
with an emery wheel.  He carried razors for social purposes and his glance
was like an automatic drill."
   Les also said that "Willie the Weeper" came from the "Hop Song," the first
character song of the underworld that he ever heard.  It was composed by an
entertainer in Cripple Creek, Colorado, by the name of Guy Hallie."  (Sic,
with just end quote--ed.)

Pg. 98--Then I would hear a soft voice say, "Jimmie, when nobody's looking,
slip me a century!"  A century was a hundred francs.  Or sometimes he would
ask for a "sawbuck," five hundred francs.

Pg. 100--They can write their own tickets.

Pg. 103--..."Jimmie, pour out my bread-and-butter, please," and this would
mean a brandy and soda.

Pg. 158--"This must be the place!"

Pg. 210--They were always proud of their _maquereau_, or pimps, each of whom
often had three or four girls working for him at once.

Pg. 221--A great place for friends to gather in the days when I first went to
Montparnasse was the _bougnat_ (shop selling wine, coal and wood, usually
with a zinc bar but no tables) on the corner of the rue Campagne-Premiere,
owned and run by an old Auvergnat, Pere Londiche.

Pg. 248--Another group that formed an important part of Montparnasse life
were the homosexuals.  When I first went to Paris I had never heard of such
people, and thought they must be a recent invention!  Everyone told me
differently, of course, but (Pg. 249--ed.) I don't think they had any in
Manchester, where I was brought up.
   As homos go, I prefer the women to the men--it seems more natural.  In a
bar the women are more quiet and reserved than the men, even though they wear
mannish clothes.

Pg. 251--The fairies particularly, have a hard life among the normal men, who
often resent them, especially after a few drinks.  I always watched for
fights between two such groups--watched to protect the normal men, for the
pansies were usually excellent fighters, despite their effeminate ways.

Pg. 277--Another client here was Mrs. Nell Henry, wife of the jockey Milton
Henry who founded the New York Bar in 1911.

Pg. 294--Fabresse published an entire volume of sketches of me entitled _La
Vie Fantaisiste d'un Barman de Montparnasse_ (The Strange Life of a Barman in
Montparnasse).

Pg. 297--The _croix de vache_ is a cross cut on the face with a knife by a
man to whom the woman has done wrong.


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Sat Nov 11 12:10:58 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 06:10:58 -0600
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.061058.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

There may be some regional bias to the /l/ loss that Ron notes.  In rural
west central Illlinois, near Peoria,
everyone I know uses the /l/.  We have some upland southern dialect around
here, but probably not like in North Carolina.

Tim

----- Original Message -----
From: <RonButters at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 10:38 PM
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC


> I have been making notes every time I hear the word ALCOHOLIC pronounced,
and
> it seems to me that about 2% of the people I listen to say [aek at h)l at k]
> invariantently, even when others in conversation with them consistently
say
> [aelk at h)l at k]. I'm not talking about vocalization of the [l], as in
> [aeuk at h)l at k]; it just ain't there at all. Those who do not have the first
[l]
> do not seem to notice that they lack it, and those who listen to them
speak
> do not seem to notice the absence of the [l] (at least, nobody comments on
> it). There does not seem to be any regional correlation (as there is with,
> say, [hEp] for [hElp], and very little social correlation.
>
> Anyone else notice this? Any explanation?


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Sun Nov 12 05:16:35 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:16:35 -0600
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.231635.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

Aren't  "vunderable" and "/aekoholik/  cases of consonant cluster reduction?
Lots of languages have been unloading un needed consonants for years.

----- Original Message -----
From: sagehen <sagehen at SLIC.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2000 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC


> "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> writes:
>
> >My initial impression is that this is just a 'lazy' pronunciation,
> >comparable  -- for example -- to 'antarctic' /&nartIk/ [& = 'ae'
ligature],
> >which I've heard often. I think you'll find the same casual acceptance of
> >this, with one speaker saying /&nartIk/, another /&ntarktIk/, nobody much
> >noticing the distinction.
>
> >Is there any correlation between the elision of the /l/ and the
'northern'
> >high-front pronunciation of /&/?
>
> >Do we hear 'calculator' /k&kj at lejt@r/ with elided /l/ sometimes? I think
so.
>
> >Maybe the silent 'l' often found before /k/ -- as in 'walk', 'folk',
> >'falcon' (variant), etc., etc. -- shows a general tendency for /lk/ >
/k/?
>
> >-- Doug Wilson
> ---------------
> I also often hear "vunerable"  for vulnerable, and less frequently,
> "chirdren" for children.
> A. Murie


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Nov 12 05:25:37 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:25:37 -0700
Subject: Grok -- new/old WOTY?
In-Reply-To: <39F9F77800128C08@deimos.email.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.222537.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The latest PC Magazine has the following from the editor-in-chief, Michael
J. Miller:

        "The latest buzzword among Silicon Valley engineers seems to be
_grok_. People use is to mean an idea that they really understand and buy
into, as in 'I really grok that idea.'
        "Grok first appeared in Robert Heinlein's 1961 science fiction
masterpiece, _Stranger in a Strange Land_."


        Rudy


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Nov 12 05:36:01 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:36:01 -0700
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
In-Reply-To: <39F9F77800128C08@deimos.email.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <SAT.11.NOV.2000.223601.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I can see how the l-less pronunciation could evolve from the
vocalized form, much as undoubtedly happened with HELP --> HEHP --> HEP.
However, this does not seem to generalize automatically, as I have never
heard anyone drop the /l/ in ALKALI or ALKALINE, which is a similar
context.


        Rudy


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Nov 12 05:48:46 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:48:46 -0500
Subject: Grok -- new/old WOTY?
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.004846.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Grok has been part of the online lexicon for ages. It was in the original
Jargon File, I believe, and in all subsequent editions of the Hacker's
Dictionary.

It may have gained wider cachet recently in Silicon Valley business circles
because the Industry Standard has a column of the same name and a new
spin-off magazine also called Grok.

Rudolph C Troike wrote:

> The latest PC Magazine has the following from the editor-in-chief, Michael
> J. Miller:
>
>         "The latest buzzword among Silicon Valley engineers seems to be
> _grok_. People use is to mean an idea that they really understand and buy
> into, as in 'I really grok that idea.'
>         "Grok first appeared in Robert Heinlein's 1961 science fiction
> masterpiece, _Stranger in a Strange Land_."
>
>         Rudy


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 12 06:07:42 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 00:07:42 CST
Subject: Grok -- new/old WOTY?
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.000742.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: Rudolph C Troike <rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Grok -- new/old WOTY?
>Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 22:25:37 -0700
>
>The latest PC Magazine has the following from the editor-in-chief, Michael
>J. Miller:
>
>         "The latest buzzword among Silicon Valley engineers seems to be
>_grok_. People use is to mean an idea that they really understand and buy
>into, as in 'I really grok that idea.'
>         "Grok first appeared in Robert Heinlein's 1961 science fiction
>masterpiece, _Stranger in a Strange Land_."
>
>
>         Rudy

Yes, I've looked. 1961, tho', it was in the late 1960s the the novel
attained pseudo-cult status. _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ is the true
Heinlein masterpiece. I'm remembering when I first read these novels.

It's weird, but I was going to Piedmont High School when the Freedom Under
Clark Kerr movement broke out a couple miles north. Gee, our 30K homes then
that are now worth $3-10 million now (and my parents that did not hold on
long enough to cash in). I lived on pink-sidewalked, plane-treed Estrella,
where Bonita and Moraga meet. I am actually of the generation that remembers
Leonard J. Waxdex (or some such spelling) and the original bird calling
contest. I was down in the print shop with Mr. A. setting up the school
paper for the first recursion of it. I even remember when the grand gothic
Scottish Highlands building on Magnolia got torn down because of
earthquake-proof-ness (some years later). I forget who was my 10th grade
Shakespeare teacher was, but we accused her of being Miss Rheingold of 1912
or so.

And San Francisco was merely across the bay via AC Transit.

This is the context I remember the Heinlein classics (I preferred Poul
Anderson). What's his name, the teacher in 9th grade algebra: the place I
first grokked Andre Norton's _Judgment on Janus_.


_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Sun Nov 12 14:04:55 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 09:04:55 -0500
Subject: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.090455.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The "Pierre Salinger syndrome" (believing something is true just because you
saw it on the Internet) strikes again. Something about that quote from Annie
Hall didn't pass the smell test, so I went out and rented the damn thing.
Sure enough, the script I saw at some Web site had it wrong. Here's what the
character *really* says:

"Not only is he a great agent, but he really gives good meeting."

Changing "meetings" to "meeting" makes all the difference in the world.

Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynne Murphy" <lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: Give Good X; Shalom Chaver


> >In Woody Allen's "Annie Hall" (1977), a character says this:
> >
> >"Not only is he a great agent, but he really gives good meetings."
> >
> >Paul
>
> But that's more likely a play on "give a good party" than "give head".
>
> Lynne


From fitzke at VOYAGER.NET  Sun Nov 12 14:41:36 2000
From: fitzke at VOYAGER.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 09:41:36 -0500
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.094136.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just a thought: IBM punched cards may have spawned "chad", simply
because the volume might have created a need for the word. Anyone have
contacts with IBM historian-types?

Bob


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Nov 12 15:21:28 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 07:21:28 -0800
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.072128.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

heard on npr this morning: a piece in which "pregnant chad"
(clearly a mass-noun occurrence) was followed not long after
by "chads" (clearly a count-noun occurrence).

looks like "chad" is going the way of "e-mail" (or "email", if
you prefer): many speakers can use it either as a mass noun
("e-mail has been piling up in my mailbox") or a count noun
("two e-mails have just arrived").

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Sun Nov 12 15:42:30 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 15:42:30 +0000
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
In-Reply-To: <200011121521.HAA23689@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.154230.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>heard on npr this morning: a piece in which "pregnant chad"
>(clearly a mass-noun occurrence) was followed not long after
>by "chads" (clearly a count-noun occurrence).
>
>looks like "chad" is going the way of "e-mail" (or "email", if
>you prefer): many speakers can use it either as a mass noun
>("e-mail has been piling up in my mailbox") or a count noun
>("two e-mails have just arrived").
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


An AP story that quotes a couple of punch-card experts consistently
uses it as a mass noun:

http://salon.com/politics/wire/2000/11/11/experts/index.html

But the rest of the stories on salon.com seem to use it as a count noun.
A possible scenario for the change: If originally the term was used
in contexts like "the counter is jammed up with chad" or "we have to
sweep the chad off the floor" then it would make more sense for it to
be a mass noun--no one needs to pay attention to the individual parts
of it.  But since now the focus is on individual ballot papers with
individual pieces of paper stuck to them, they're perceived as more
countable things.

Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Sun Nov 12 18:57:55 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 12:57:55 -0600
Subject: pronunciation of ALCOHOLIC
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.125755.0600.>

I'm sure I've heard /aekih>l/ ~ /aekUh>l/  for 'alcohol' in the speech of Southern
whites.  Another word in which this consonant cluster reduction might occur is 'Alka
Seltzer'.  Sonja might find an opportunity to check out these other words.  I agree with
Tim Frazer that it's a matter of consonant cluster reduction.  I don't think it has to go
through a stage in which /l/ is vocalized.  The "sh" in 'shrimp' does not have to go
through some intermediate form as it "becomes" 'srimp' and I don't see a logical necessity
for /l/ to go through an intermediate stage on its way to zero in the dialect(s) in
question.  Literacy and awareness of an "underlying /l/" are probably not a factor in this
population's phonology -- merely the phonotactics of (a) subdialect(s) forbidding [aelk]
with any of the possible realizations of /ae/ and/or /l/.  Sonja might also look at
breaking before velar obstruents in the speech of these individuals.
DMLance

Rudolph C Troike wrote:

>         I can see how the l-less pronunciation could evolve from the
> vocalized form, much as undoubtedly happened with HELP --> HEHP --> HEP.
> However, this does not seem to generalize automatically, as I have never
> heard anyone drop the /l/ in ALKALI or ALKALINE, which is a similar
> context.
>
>         Rudy


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Sun Nov 12 19:13:01 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:13:01 -0500
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
In-Reply-To: <a05001902b634699b20b9@[139.184.48.65]>
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.141301.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:42 PM 11/12/00 +0000, you wrote:
>>heard on npr this morning: a piece in which "pregnant chad"
>>(clearly a mass-noun occurrence) was followed not long after
>>by "chads" (clearly a count-noun occurrence).
>>
>>looks like "chad" is going the way of "e-mail" (or "email", if
>>you prefer): many speakers can use it either as a mass noun
>>("e-mail has been piling up in my mailbox") or a count noun
>>("two e-mails have just arrived").
>>
>>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>
>
>An AP story that quotes a couple of punch-card experts consistently
>uses it as a mass noun:
>
>http://salon.com/politics/wire/2000/11/11/experts/index.html
>
>But the rest of the stories on salon.com seem to use it as a count noun.
>A possible scenario for the change: If originally the term was used
>in contexts like "the counter is jammed up with chad" or "we have to
>sweep the chad off the floor" then it would make more sense for it to
>be a mass noun--no one needs to pay attention to the individual parts
>of it.  But since now the focus is on individual ballot papers with
>individual pieces of paper stuck to them, they're perceived as more
>countable things.
>
>Lynne
>--
>M. Lynne Murphy
>Lecturer in Linguistics
>School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
>University of Sussex
>Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
>phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
>fax:    +44(0)1273-671320

This morning on one of the TV roundtables (Sam and Cokie, maybe?), "chads"
(pl.) were explained in detail: one tear, two tears, pregnant ones,
slightly poked ones, etc.  But always as countable, meaning those little
centers that are punched out (we use them in our county too).  I always
wondered what to call the little white dots that spill out all over the
floor from hole punchers--are they chads too?  Which might explain the
conversion to mass noun:  Who spilled all this chad?

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Nov 12 19:59:28 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 13:59:28 -0600
Subject: Believe You Me
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.135928.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  On Nov. 7 Jordan Rich wrote in regard to the construction Believe You Me:

>One of my co-workers was asking me where this phrase came from.  Any thoughts?
>
------FWIW, this is the normal construction for the formal imperative in
German, e.g.:  "Glauben Sie mir" = Believe me! (literally: Believe you
me!).

        So,  might the construction "Believe you me" possibly have arisen
in English under the influence of German? And are there any studies about
possible German influence on English syntax?

----Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 12 19:46:26 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 14:46:26 EST
Subject: Cute Ute; Chadgate
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.144626.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CUTE UTE

   The Sunday NEW YORK TIMES, Automobile section, uses "cute ute."  There are
50 Dow Jones database hits, but 21 in the past year.  The earliest "cute ute"
for a sports utility vehicle is the ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS, 11-11-1995, "Suzuki
gets cute," pg. 1C:

   What is it?  A dune buggy?  A golf cart?
   No, a cute ute.

   The LOS ANGELES TIMES, 4-26-1996, uses "cute ute" regarding Toyota's RAV4.
   This cutesy thing ain't goin away.

--------------------------------------------------------
CHADGATE

   I was beaten to the ADS-L punch on "chad."  I hang my chad in shame.
   Sunday's NEW YORK POST has "Chadgate."
   Actor Chad Everett could be behind this.

--------------------------------------------------------
GROK

   PC MAGAZINE editor-in-chief Michael Miller was my editor on THE
POLYTECHNIC (voted an All-America college newspaper) at Rensselaer
Polytechnic Institute.  He's gone on to great heights while I beg newspapers
for decades to give my research away for free, or even to correct errors.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov 12 13:16:26 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 21:16:26 +0800
Subject: Fwd: "chad" revisited
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.211626.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can anyone (dis)confirm this charming story?   The etymology was
forwarded to me by a former student of mine and long-time puzzler.

Larry

--- begin forwarded text

>>From the mailing list of the National Puzzlers' League...

To: npl-folk at puzzlers.org
Subject: Re: Non-NPL: voting machines
Sender: owner-npl-folk at rev.net

Speaking of voting methods, and somewhat more NPL-related: I was
rather amused to flip on the TV and find figures like Sam Donaldson
encountering, seemingly for the first time, the term "chad" for the
little confetti-like bits that come out of a punched card or paper
tape.

"Chad", it so happens, is a classic example of etymological "back-formation"
(at least, if the etymology suggested in the _Hacker's Dictionary_ is
correct). Someone named Chadless invented the Chadless Keypunch, which
makes a hole by *partially* punching out a little bit of paper and folding
it over (rather than punching it out entirely). Chad got its name (so it
is claimed) because a Chadless Keypunch doesn't produce any.

Ucaoimhu

--- end forwarded text


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 13 03:47:40 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 22:47:40 EST
Subject: Rap; Gil Scott-Heron novels
Message-ID: <SUN.12.NOV.2000.224740.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Some notes on "rap" and Gill Scott-Heron.
   I started reading New York's AMSTERDAM NEWS and got from January-August
1981.

Summer 1974, THE JOURNAL OF NEGRO EDUCATION, pages 310- 318.
_On Rapping With the Inner-City Dude_
John W. Green, School of Education, Howard University
   Pg. 310--"It be's like that."  Don't understand what that means?  Don't
feel badly; to a large extent, that is what "rapping" is all about.
   Pg. 316--To summarize our "rap session"...

July 1975, EBONY, pg. 28 bio credit--Gil Scott-Heron, 26, is a musician and
writer whose first novel, _The Vulture_, was published when he was 19.  He
also wrote _Small Talk at 125th and Lenox_ (a collection of "rap verse") and
a second novel, _The Nigger Factory_.

25 April 1981, AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 39, col. 2--Bobby Robinson of Enjoy
records of 125th Street, N.Y.C. has just released "Feel the Heartbeat," by
Pumpkin and Freinds, both vocal and instrumental (It is a rap disc).

11 July 1981, AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 43, col. 1:
Marie Moore
_Jack the Rapper_
_"raps" it like it is_
   There is a man you probably would not be familiar with unless you're in
the music business or broadcasting.  His name is _Jack the Rapper_.  He has a
publication that comes out of Florida, but no one escapes his wrath.
(What publication is that?--ed.)

11 July 1981, AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 45, col. 3--Richard "Dimples" Fields /
Dimples / Broadwalk.  Look all you rappers here comes an lp that will truly
have you calling your friends and telling them about this hot tune titled
"She's Got Papers on Me."

31 August 1981, NEWSWEEK, "A Flap Over a Rap," pg. 65, col. 2--In fact,
"Papers"--the title is black slang for "marriage license"...

June 1982, BLACK ENTERPRISE, "Rapping Their Way to Gold," pages 233-238.  Pg.
233, col. 2:
   Sylvia Robinson didn't really want to be at the Harlem World Disco on that
hot Sunday evening in 1979.
   (...)(Col. 3--ed.)
   Robinson, an experienced songwriter and singer, soon scooped three
Englewood, NJ teenagers off the street and into a studio to record _Rapper's
Delight_, a rap record based on Chic's rhythm for "Good Times."  The
Robinsons started a new company called Sugar Hill Records, and dubbed their
rappers the Sugar Hill Gang.  This was the first time New York City's rapping
style had been recorded, and to the mainline music business's amazement, the
record became the hottest seller of 1979, in the United States and Canada,
while also making the Top Ten in Western Europe, Israel, and South Africa.
The Robinsons claim that _Rapper's Delight_ has sold more than 2 million
copies in the US alone, grossing mor e than $3.5 million, and sparking a
legion of imitations.

21 March 1983, TIME, pg. 72, col. 1:
_Chilling Out on Rap Flash_
_New City music brings out the last word in style_
   Def.  Definitely def.  Definitely def, indeed. (...)
   ...this subculture, nicknamed hip hop...

26 May 1983, ROLLING STONE, pg. 18, col. 1:
_TALK THAT TALK/ WALK THAT WALK_
It's fresh.  It's the new deal.  It's called "hip hop."

--------------------------------------------------------
THE VULTURE (1970)
and
THE NIGGER FACTORY (1972)
by Gil Scott-Heron
Payback Press, 1996 and 1999

Pg. viii (1996--ed.)--...a bit of "C.H.A."..."cover his ass."

(From THE VULTURE--ed.)

Pg. 8--...his eyes took on the deep concentration of a man who's really
enjoying his own rap.

Pg. 10--...if he ketch you, yo' ass iz grass.

Pg. 12---"You got trey bags?" I asked.  "Treys _an'_ nickels."

Pg. 23--"An' my rap ain' that good?"  (Rap=excuse--ed.)

Pg. 32--"Whuss happnin'?"

Pg. 33--..."yeah, well dadadadada"... (Yadda-yadda-yadda?--ed.)

Pg. 45--"I don't give a fuck," I snorted.

Pg. 153--"Well, then, my dear, we'll order you a dragon in milk."  "What's
that?" (Pg. 154--ed.)  "A large Coke with a scoop of ice cream."

Pg. 174--"A yard."  "Whew!  Can't be that small if it's worth a yard to you.
A hundred dollars ain' no small action."

(The following is from NIGGER FACTORY, the second novel--ed.)

Pg. 257--"I have a saying for students on my campus.  It says: 'My way or the
highway!'"

Pg. 291--We bad!  We Black!

Pg. 336---Gash man.  Gash man.

Pg. 375--"You the Man!  You the Head Man!"

Pg. 442--"What's up?"

Pg. 462--"Let's list a few things that we want Baker to rap about when the
party starts."


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Mon Nov 13 09:04:24 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 02:04:24 -0700
Subject: /Vlk/ --> /Vhk/ --> /Vk/
In-Reply-To: <39FA00440012ED78@phobos.email.Arizona.EDU>
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.020424.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Disagreeing with my good friend Don Lance, Southern /SrImp/ becoming
/srImp/ (loss of contrast of /S/:/s/ before /r/) is in no way parallel to
the vocalization and loss of /l/ in the context V__k (or more generally
V__C). The closest thing to an inverse parallel is Southern loss of /r/
following a (voiceless) dental fricative and preceding a back vowel, as in
"from", "throw", "through".

        Rudy


From editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Mon Nov 13 09:55:12 2000
From: editor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 09:55:12 -0000
Subject: Fwd: "chad" revisited
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.095512.0000.>

> Can anyone (dis)confirm this charming story?   The etymology
> was forwarded to me by a former student of mine and long-time
> puzzler.

I've just written a piece about 'chad' for next week's issue of
World Wide Words. What research I've been able to do suggests
strongly that Mr Chadless was fictional. There was a chadless
punch, but the word seems to have been derived from the existing
'chad'.

However, if anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd be more
than interested to hear (before next Saturday, if possible!).


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
<editor at worldwidewords.org>
<http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU  Mon Nov 13 14:13:40 2000
From: HSTAHLKE at GW.BSU.EDU (Herb Stahlke)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 09:13:40 -0500
Subject: Southern /r/: was Re: /Vlk/ --> /Vhk/ --> /Vk/
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.091340.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For most Midwesterners I've checked, the /s/ before /r/ is retroflexed, by assimilation to the /r/, not palato-alveolar.  (If you whisper the words "shrimp" and "ship", you can hear the difference in oral cavity resonance clearly.)  This is the same retroflexion found with /t/ and /d/.  I have found contrasts between Midwestern speakers who say /grosri/ and those who say /gros,ri/ (comma marks retroflexion) and also for /n at rsri/ vs. /n at rs,ri/, and I've heard differences between /lVgz,ri/ and lVgZ at rj@s/.

In those dialects that do not retroflex the /s/ before /r/ but have /srimp/ etc. instead, is the /r/different?  Is it less retroflexed than the Midwestern /r/?  I know that Central Indiana has very strong retroflexion.  As a choir director and choral singer, I find it almost impossible to eliminate it from Hoosier choral diction.

Herb Stahlke
Ball State University

>>> rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU 11/13/00 04:04AM >>>
Disagreeing with my good friend Don Lance, Southern /SrImp/ becoming
/srImp/ (loss of contrast of /S/:/s/ before /r/) is in no way parallel to
the vocalization and loss of /l/ in the context V__k (or more generally
V__C). The closest thing to an inverse parallel is Southern loss of /r/
following a (voiceless) dental fricative and preceding a back vowel, as in
"from", "throw", "through".

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 13 14:51:38 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 09:51:38 EST
Subject: Greetings from the CIA!
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.095138.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from the Culinary Institute of America.  What a lovely setting
up here.  Now, what the heck am I gonna have for lunch?

--------------------------------------------------------
COCKTAIL AND WINE DIGEST
by Oscar Haimo
privately printed, 1943, 1944, 1945, 1946

Pg. 71--Mojito Highball.
Pg. 71--Moscow Mule.
2 oz. Vodka
1 split Ginger Beer
        Crushed Ice
        _Serve in mug_
        _Decorate with sprigs of mint_
Pg. 83--Red Snapper Cocktail.
1 1/2 oz. Tomato Juice
3 dashes lime juice
1 dash L&P Sauce
1 1/2 oz. Vodka
   _Salt, pepper and red pepper to taste_
   _Shake well_
   _Serve in Delmonico glass_

COCKTAIL AND WINE DIGEST
by Oscar Haimo
(privately printed) 1943, 1944, 1945, 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951,
1952, 1953

Pg. 37--Bloody Mary Cocktail.  Same as Red Snapper Cocktail.  See page 83.

--------------------------------------------------------
CROSBY GAIGE'S
COCKTAIL GUIDE AND LADIES' COMPANION
M Barrows and Company, NY, 1941

Pg. 56--_GASTON LAURYSSEN_
   Mr. Lauryssen, as host at the St. Regis, has made that hotel an exemplar
of excellence and subdued but authentic excellence.
Pg. 57--Old King Cole presides with pleasantly vacuous hospitality over the
bar from which Mr. Lauryssen sends me two recipies from Queen Cole's
household book.
   _Red Snapper_
   2 oz. Tomato Juice
   2. oz. Vodka
   1/2 teaspoon Worcestershire Sauce
   1 pinch Salt
   1 pinch Cayenne Pepper
   1 dash Lemon Juice
   Shake well with ice and serve in a Delmonico glass.

(Here lies our "Bloody Mary" puzzle.  Neither the Bloody Mary nor the Red
Snapper is mentioned in any of the very numerous 1930s drink books that
followed the end of Prohibition.  This, in 1941, is the first Red Snapper
that I've found.  Bloody Mary would appear in the 1946 STORK CLUB BAR BOOK
and the 1947 TRADER VIC'S drink book--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
THE DRINKS OF YESTERYEAR
A MIXOLOGY
By Jere Sullivan
(Privately printed) 1930

   This is the rarest of rare book that I came for.  Unfortunately, there are
no etymologies.
   His bio on page 6 is interesting:

   The Author was for twenty years a "Wine Clerk." (...)
   This training and experience gave him currency as a qualified "Wine Clerk"
and opened to him, for expert's finesse, employment successively at a select
old Boston Club, a nationally known rendesvouz in Washington, a Broadway
Restaurant, two of the most fastidious hotel bars of New York City and
lastly, for years before The Drought, at a Yale world-famous hostelry in New
Haven, Connecticut. (...)
   The drinks of yesteryear hold memories for the Author which he wishes he
could convey.  For twenty years he smilingly served, as he relishes to state
it--All Men and Yale Men and All their Goodly Company, in Boston, Washington,
New York and New Haven... (...)  The Yale Professor--how good an old
fashioned cocktail or toddy seemed to him! (...)
   Pleasantest of all the Author's memories twine themselves around his
contact with Yale men.  He mixed and dispensed for a legion of them as
undergraduates, Alumni and Faculty members.  Their favorite drinks of
yesteryear will be found in this mixology with headnote allusions.  The
Copper Kettle Punch exclusively steeped in their traditions, herein finds its
first publication.  And while they staged their fling, he can truthfully
record there was no scandalizing condititions in attendance.  They drank
always as true Gentlemen and to his mind with lasting good to their
after-lives in terms of experience, disillusionment and above all, of
comeraderie and sublimated friendships.  Real, never snobbish, ever
democratic and generous to a fault, Sociability ruled them, and with a
"Here's to Good Old Yale, Drink'er Down!  Drink'er Down!" infused them for
aye with that spirit, proverbially incomparable--the Yale Spirit!

(Maybe the Yale archives has info on Jere Sullivan?--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 13 16:52:04 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:52:04 EST
Subject: Yale drinks
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.115204.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Oh, all right.  The things I do for that college!

THE DRINKS OF YESTERYEAR
   A MIXOLOGY
Being the 200 Authentic Favorite Formulas of a Pre-Volstead "Wine Clerk" Who
Smilingly Served
   ALL MEN
   and
   YALE MEN
   and
   ALL THEIR GOODLY COMPANY
Whatsoever "Little Hearts Desire"
   Indexed with
Foreword of Fond Recollections
General Instructions
and
Allusional Headnotes to Individual Recipes
(By Jere Sullivan, 1930--ed.)

Pg. 28:
Known to Yale Men Everywhere.
   _Yale._
1/3 French Vermouth
1/3 Gin
1/3 Creme de Yvette
Shake and strain into a cocktail glass

Pg. 41:
   _Copper Kettle_
   Twice or thrice a year, on occasions hoary with custom and ebulient with
spirit, such as initiations, convocations and reunions, this Nectar of Men
was brewed and the Fathers and Sons of Old Eli quaffed it--in almost ritual
of ne'er forgetting toast and pulsing jolly song.
   This Punch is made only in quantity.  Its precise formula depended
obviously on the number in attendance and the conservative or liberal
character of the festive occasion.  The (Pg. 42--ed.) base of the Punch was
Cider and Rum, Champagne and Claret and Maraschino being added to suit, lemon
and sugar also to taste, and enough charged water to adjust to strength.
   Making this Punch a few days ahead insured its being all the better.
Charged water was added only when ready to serve.
   The Author gives herewith a specimen formula of this Punch employed by him
to prepare it for a _spirited reunion of twenty_ Old Grads:

_The Traditional Yale Punch--the Wassail Bowl of Her Social Fraternizations._
6 lemons sliced
1 gallon of Cider
1 quart of St. Croix Rum
1 pint of Maraschino
1 quarter pound of sugar
2 quarts of Champagne
1 pint of Claret.
   These ingredients were compounded on the evening of the nineteenth of the
month; on the afternoon of the twenty-first; the mixture was taken to the
place of reunion, placed in the bowl, a large lump of ice was given it and
when it was about to be partaken, a very little charged water was added to
guarantee it "life."

Pg. 46:
   _Smashes_
   A Smash differed from a Cobbler or Cooler by offering a small and short
rather than a tall and long cooling drink.  It was a hot weather drink, and
of Southern extraction, as evidenced by the Mint.
_Yale._
   Use an old-fashioned Whiskey cocktail glass; add 1/4 loaf of sugar with a
little water and a few sprigs of Mint; crush all together; add a few lumps of
ice; a small quantity of Grenadine syrup; pour a drink of Gin.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 13 18:00:06 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:00:06 EST
Subject: Apache Dance
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.130006.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    OED seems to have "Apache dance" from about 1914.
    This is for Grant Barrett; the other posting was for Yalies.  I try to
spread the stuff around.

PARIS A LA CARTE
by Julian Street
New York: John Lane Company
1914
Copyright 1911 by the Ridgway Company
Copyright 1912 by John Lane Company
Third edition--revised

Drawing opposite page 24:
   ASIDE FROM THE FACT THAT A PAIR OF PROFESSIONALS GIVE THE "APACHE" DANCE
AMONG THE TABLES, THERE IS NO REASON FOR SITTING THERE.

Pg. 68--To these places come the "_Apaches_" (a word which the French have
borrowed from among our Indian names, to designate a bloodthirsty villain),
the "_voyous_," or toughs, who hang about the markets, and the "_maqueraux_,"
with their women.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov 13 06:17:06 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:17:06 +0800
Subject: Yale drinks
In-Reply-To: <c6.d3e00fc.27417634@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.141706.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:52 AM -0500 11/13/00, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>THE DRINKS OF YESTERYEAR
>    A MIXOLOGY
>Being the 200 Authentic Favorite Formulas of a Pre-Volstead "Wine Clerk" Who
>Smilingly Served
>    ALL MEN
>    and
>    YALE MEN
>    and
>    ALL THEIR GOODLY COMPANY
>Whatsoever "Little Hearts Desire"
>    Indexed with
>Foreword of Fond Recollections
>General Instructions
>and
>Allusional Headnotes to Individual Recipes
>(By Jere Sullivan, 1930--ed.)
>
>Pg. 28:
>Known to Yale Men Everywhere.
>    _Yale._
>1/3 French Vermouth
>1/3 Gin
>1/3 Creme de Yvette
>Shake and strain into a cocktail glass
>
Lost wisdom of the (s)ages, I fear.  Not only does this one not seem
to be known to Yale men even in New Haven (let alone everywhere)
anymore, most if not all of us can't even get our hands on a good
bottle of Creme de Yvette.  Or on why it isn't spelled Creme
d'Yvette, whatever it is.

larry


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Nov 13 19:35:28 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 13:35:28 -0600
Subject: /Vlk/ --> /Vhk/ --> /Vk/
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.133528.0600.>

Rudy, no disagreement.  I knew they weren't parallel.  I just couldn't think of a truly
parallel example.  There may be some articulatory feature in the /ae/ of Sonja's
population that does not allow a vocalized /l/ before /k/.  Have the srimp-speakers *lost*
a contrast?  Did this dialect have such a contrast historically?  How would an
"unsophisticated" srimp-speaker write this word in a dictation exercise?  I'm essentially
questioning the practice of assigning the same underlying forms in all dialects of the
same language and then applying the same phonological rules to derive all surface forms.
In the case in question, does the /l/ HAVE to go through a vocalization stage?  Generally,
vocalization affects the preceding vowel, in which case we would need an additional
fronting rule to take Sonja's speakers' vowels back to the articulatory position of /ae/
in other 'ak' words like axe.
DMLance

Rudolph C Troike wrote:

> Disagreeing with my good friend Don Lance, Southern /SrImp/ becoming
> /srImp/ (loss of contrast of /S/:/s/ before /r/) is in no way parallel to
> the vocalization and loss of /l/ in the context V__k (or more generally
> V__C). The closest thing to an inverse parallel is Southern loss of /r/
> following a (voiceless) dental fricative and preceding a back vowel, as in
> "from", "throw", "through".
>
>         Rudy


From bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 13 19:38:21 2000
From: bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (David Bergdahl)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 14:38:21 -0500
Subject: While we're waiting for the election returns
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.143821.0500.>

Did it strike anyone else as interesting that among the northern states
voting for Gore (from Minn > Wisc > Iowa > Illinois > Mich and then Penn
> Maine except NH) there's a noticeable gab formed by Indiana and Ohio?
In the 20th-century the border states of WV, KY & TN have become
southern.  I thought that in this first election of the 21st-century OH
& IND had joined them.  Certainly, southern Ohio & Hoosier-apex parts of
Indiana are southern culturally, even as far north as Indianapolis and
Columbus.  Carver suggests that the old Midland dialect area is a place
where northern and southern vocabulary overlap, "a transitional layer
between the Upper South and Lower North, which it overlaps" (174).

The Gore states of "the left coast," the upper Midwest centered on
Chicago and Minneapolis, and the old east centered on Philadelphia, NY &
Boston then define "northern" with the Atlantic and Gulf states (and the
expansion area of the great plains) and the mountain states "southern."
An interesting cultural configuration.

-- db
____________________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
tel:  (740) 593-2783
366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
(740) 593-2818


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 13 20:20:51 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:20:51 EST
Subject: Tex-Mex (continued)
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.152051.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has "Tex-Mex" food from the early 1970s.  I had beaten that by about a
year.  I do not have the "Tex-Mex" DARE entry handy, for obvious reasons.

FIESTAS MEXICANAS
MENUS AND RECIPES
by Eleanor Ringland and Lucy Ringland Winston
The Naylor Company
San Antonio, Texas
First edition 1965
2nd printing 1966
Second edition 1967
2nd printing 1968
3rd printing 1972

Pg. 38:
   _Recipes for Tex-Mex Cocktail Party_
1. GUACAMOLE...
2. CHILE CON QUESO...

(Nothing new or additional to report on chimichanga & friends--ed.)


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov 13 20:38:19 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:38:19 -0500
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.153819.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jeffrey William McKeough   <jwm at spdcc.com>  writes:
>>>>>
"Well it was more than 5 years ago for me, but if you
spent a lot of time moving really fast you may be OK." -Oly
<<<<<

Near-light speed... that's REALLY bookin'!


-- Mark
"Someone's sent out the New Australian Grammar to Malaya nearly a
 century before it was invented, and I'm going to be all day
 sorting it out."     -- Diana Wynne Jones, _A Tale of Time City_


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov 13 20:41:35 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:41:35 -0500
Subject: english only passes in utah
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.154135.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> writes:

>>>>>
No.  The fed's tried to convince us we were "Utahans"
a while back, but that fell flat on its face.  If my
recall isn't totally fuzzy, Sen. Hatch even brought up
on the Senate floor the question as to whether the
Federal government was to refer to a resident of Utah
as "Utahn" (prefered and used locally) or "Utahan"
(official fed usage at the time).  I don't recall
whether or not there was ever an "official"
resolution.
<<<<<

Like "marihuana", spelled thus ONLY by the US Government (and maybe some of its subdivisions).


-- Mark
Sf is dreaming about the universe. Fantasy is turning the universe into
dream. The two are rarely compatible... but they are as close kin as wind
and cloud.


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov 13 20:52:36 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:52:36 -0500
Subject: Another WOTY candidate: hanging chads
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.155236.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold Zwicky <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU> writes:
>>>>>
fascinating.  here in california i've seen "chad" used only
as a mass noun.  so it would have to be "hanging bits/pieces of chad".
<<<<<

Ah! Another county heard from!

The first formal programming course I took was in 1971 at Hunter College in
NYC. The language was FORTRAN and the medium was punch cards. The little
rectangular bits that were punched out were called "chad", as a mass noun.
Like Arnold, I haven't heard it as a count noun till the current brouhaha.

This memory came up when I heard count "chad". Late last week I heard a
song on the radio as recorded, way back, by Chad and Jeremy. And as our
synagogue choir rehearsed a new setting of the Shema, I kept getting mental
interference seeing the transliterated Hebrew words syllabified under the
notes:

          A-  do-  nai   eh--     chad


-- Mark A. Mandel
Some days it's not even worth...


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Nov 13 21:21:20 2000
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 16:21:20 -0500
Subject: While we're waiting for the election returns
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.162120.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Replying to David Bergdahl's:

>>In the 20th-century the border states of WV, KY & TN have become
southern. <<

Those states have been "Southern" much further back into history, by several
measures.


>>I thought that in this first election of the 21st-century OH & IND had
joined them.<<

According to the Statistical Abstract of the US, OH electoral votes have
gone to the Republican presidential candidate in 7 of the past 11 national
elections (1956-1996), exceptions being 1964, 1976, 1992, and 1996.  OH has
been up for grabs at times, but tends to go for Republican presidents.  And
despite some pockets of southern OH dialect tendencies (mostly in less
populous counties), I would in no way characterize the whole state as
"Southern" by any stretch -- linguistically, socially, or geographically.

IN has long been staunchly Republican in national elections -- it voted
Democratic once (1964) in the past 11 elections.  So it is not at all
unusual for IN to go Republican.

Finally, I don't believe one can make a good case that national election
preferences break down on purely Northern vs. Southern grounds.  In
addition, while the Northeast and CA are now Democratic strongholds
(excepting New Hampshire), this has only recently become so.  CA voted for
Republican presidents in 8 of the past 11 national races (D in 64, 92, and
96).  And, of course, Reagan was governor there for 2 terms, and won the
state in both of his races.  VT and ME have recently gone Republican more
often than Democratic (8 for 11 and 7 for 11, respectively), and CT has
bounced back and forth (6 for R, 5 for D).

This latest election is anomalous in a number of ways.

Frank Abate


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Mon Nov 13 21:46:20 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 15:46:20 -0600
Subject: While we're waiting for the election returns
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.154620.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

If you look at Jim Hartmann's pronunciation article in the frontmatter to
Vol. I of DARE, you will see some pronuncation maps shaped very much like
the area that Bush (apparently) carried in this election.  The same for the
1992 election, except that Clinton carried Ohio, so that the Hoosier
(republican?) apex is more obvious.

----- Original Message -----
From: David Bergdahl <bergdahl at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2000 1:38 PM
Subject: While we're waiting for the election returns


> Did it strike anyone else as interesting that among the northern states
> voting for Gore (from Minn > Wisc > Iowa > Illinois > Mich and then Penn
> > Maine except NH) there's a noticeable gab formed by Indiana and Ohio?
> In the 20th-century the border states of WV, KY & TN have become
> southern.  I thought that in this first election of the 21st-century OH
> & IND had joined them.  Certainly, southern Ohio & Hoosier-apex parts of
> Indiana are southern culturally, even as far north as Indianapolis and
> Columbus.  Carver suggests that the old Midland dialect area is a place
> where northern and southern vocabulary overlap, "a transitional layer
> between the Upper South and Lower North, which it overlaps" (174).
>
> The Gore states of "the left coast," the upper Midwest centered on
> Chicago and Minneapolis, and the old east centered on Philadelphia, NY &
> Boston then define "northern" with the Atlantic and Gulf states (and the
> expansion area of the great plains) and the mountain states "southern."
> An interesting cultural configuration.
>
> -- db
> ____________________________________________________________________
> David Bergdahl          http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
> tel:  (740) 593-2783
> 366 Ellis Hall     Ohio University  Athens, Ohio 45701-2979       fax:
> (740) 593-2818


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Nov 13 21:51:22 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 16:51:22 -0500
Subject: Yale drinks
In-Reply-To: <p04320404b635375218e8@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.165122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... most if not all of us can't even get our hands on a good
>bottle of Creme de Yvette.  Or on why it isn't spelled Creme
>d'Yvette, whatever it is.

It seems to be a trade name for creme de violette or something very similar:

http://hotwired.lycos.com/cocktail/archive/links/nc_creme_de_violette.html

Possibly it is not produced any more. There are other similar products; e.g.,

http://www.benoit-serres.com/pages/right3.html

-- Doug Wilson


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Nov 13 22:06:00 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 16:06:00 CST
Subject: Greetings from the CIA!
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.160600.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>(Here lies our "Bloody Mary" puzzle. Neither the Bloody Mary nor the Red
>Snapper is mentioned in any of the very numerous 1930s drink books that
>followed the end of Prohibition. This,
>in 1941, is the first Red Snapper that I've found. Bloody Mary would appear
>in the 1946 STORK CLUB BAR BOOK and the 1947 TRADER VIC'S drink book--ed.)

I remember seeing an add for 'Snappy-Tom', or perhaps it's 'Snap-E-Tom', or
the some such in a late 40s or early 50s bound volume of old Life magazines.
They were advertising in the 70s, as I remember, and the design of the can
had not changed much. These were little itty bitty cans, about the size and
shape of a small can of tomato paste. The product was a zesty tomato juice,
a kind of Bloody Mary mix.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Nov 13 22:52:09 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:52:09 -0500
Subject: Fwd: "chad" revisited
In-Reply-To: <3A0FBA80.10311.44BF89@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.175209.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > Can anyone (dis)confirm this charming story?   The etymology
> > was forwarded to me by a former student of mine and long-time
> > puzzler.
>
>I've just written a piece about 'chad' for next week's issue of
>World Wide Words. What research I've been able to do suggests
>strongly that Mr Chadless was fictional. There was a chadless
>punch, but the word seems to have been derived from the existing
>'chad'.
>
>However, if anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd be more
>than interested to hear (before next Saturday, if possible!).

Was there ever anyone named "Chadless" in the world at all? (I wouldn't be
surprised either way.)

MW dates "chad" from 1947. My RH says "1945-50".

Teletype machines use(d) two types of punched tape: chad tape and chadless
tape (really two types of punch I suppose). The teletype hobbyist sites on
the Web refer to "chad" and "chadless" a lot. They never capitalize
"chadless". The references are to old machinery, 1960's and earlier. I find
multiple references to "chad tape" and none to "chad cards" -- suggesting
(not decisively) that the earlier use of the word might have been in
reference to tape rather than cards. The chads from tape are apparently
discs, and I've seen the incompletely separated ones likened to toilet lids.

Apparently "chad" occurs in countable and uncountable versions.

Webster's Third (1961?) gives the best tentative etymology I've seen: from
Scots "chad" = "gravel".

Several Scots dictionaries (including the big one) show this word, "chad" =
gravel, or the small stones in a riverbed.

This seems reasonable to me, and I can't find a better candidate.

Why a Scots word? Maybe it dates from the US-British collaboration during
WW II, when primitive "computers" and similar devices were used in
cryptography, etc. -- the early days of punched cards and tapes, at least
in quantity, I think. (Or were there ticker-tape machines which used
punched tape?)

Is the OED silent?

-- Doug Wilson


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 13 23:19:00 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 18:19:00 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Query to ADS
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.181900.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A friend of mine is teaching a course for elem.-jr. hi English/Language
Arts teachers this Winter on "The Development of American
English."  Wolfram & Schilling-Estes is too long and technical for this
course.  Does anyone have a good recommendation for a course that meets
twice a week for 10 weeks (and will be taught largely by microwave?!).  In
Linguistics we teach a general intro. to language using Fromkin and Rodman,
plus a course on dialects using W & S-E, but this is a more specialized
course offered by the English Dept.  So, a bit of historical development,
plus current issues and varieties, would be primary.
Here's her note:

>X-Sender: hysmith at oak.cats.ohiou.edu
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2
>Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 17:00:23 -0500
>To: flanigan at ohio.edu
>From: Stephanie Hysmith <hysmith at ohio.edu>
>Subject: Query to ADS
>Cc: sh120888 at ohio.edu
>
>Special request to post to the ADS list a query on a good, basic textbook
>on the development of American English for education majors who are
>concentrating on language arts for grades 4-9.
>As I told you this is for a regional campus. I think some of them (or all)
>may have had Linguistics 270 but that's not for certain nor is it a
>prerequisite, so a chapter on phonetics would certainly be helpful. Plus I
>really want to emphasize dialect sensitivity and acceptance, so regional
>dialects as well as social would be welcome.  I want to include a bit
>about lexical expansion, such as borrowings from other languages, and
>certainly something on discourse strategies. I just don't want to
>duplicate 270, that's my fear.

>Please ask people to respond directly to me at <sh120888 at ohio.edu>
>Thanks for your input.
>Stephanie


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Nov 13 13:24:57 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:24:57 +0800
Subject: Greetings from the CIA!
In-Reply-To: <F203XQQez1enAqpfkNs000003a7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.212457.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>(Here lies our "Bloody Mary" puzzle. Neither the Bloody Mary nor the Red
>>Snapper is mentioned in any of the very numerous 1930s drink books that
>>followed the end of Prohibition. This,
>>in 1941, is the first Red Snapper that I've found. Bloody Mary would appear
>>in the 1946 STORK CLUB BAR BOOK and the 1947 TRADER VIC'S drink book--ed.)
>
>I remember seeing an add for 'Snappy-Tom', or perhaps it's 'Snap-E-Tom', or
>the some such in a late 40s or early 50s bound volume of old Life magazines.
>They were advertising in the 70s, as I remember, and the design of the can
>had not changed much. These were little itty bitty cans, about the size and
>shape of a small can of tomato paste. The product was a zesty tomato juice,
>a kind of Bloody Mary mix.
>_________________________________________________________________________
I've gotten those little cans more recently than that on airplanes; I
usually request "Bloody Mary Mix" when I'm asked for a drink
preference.  Anymore :) , they usually convey it to me in "Mr. and
Mrs. T" brand cans, but "Snap-E-Tom" was in widespread use on the
flight-attendant carts until the last few years.

larry


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Tue Nov 14 02:16:30 2000
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 20:16:30 -0600
Subject: "grok" and Robert A. Heinlein
In-Reply-To: <20001113050027.1515481E2@brea.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.201630.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Heinlein is also responsible for the word "waldo," which seems to have
gone out of use.  From his short novel _Waldo_.

Dan Goodman
dsgood at visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Tue Nov 14 03:11:46 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 21:11:46 -0600
Subject: Fwd: "chad" revisited
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.211146.0600.>

"Douglas G. Wilson" wrote:

> (snip)
>
> MW dates "chad" from 1947. My RH says "1945-50".

(snip)

Furthermore, MW-10 says "also : a piece of chad," so it has been used as a count noun in
the past.
DMLance


From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Tue Nov 14 04:40:45 2000
From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 22:40:45 -0600
Subject: "money" as AAVE quasi-pronoun?
Message-ID: <MON.13.NOV.2000.224045.0600.>

I can't help asking if "money" as quasi-pronoun has any relationship to
"money talks and shit walks".

-- mike salovesh   <salovesh at niu.edu>     PEACE !!

Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
> In HDAS, under _money_ 'friend (in direct address)' (e.g.
> "Yo, money, whassup?"), we have two examples where this
> _money_ is functioning as a quasi-pronoun: "Money
> [i.e. 'he'] can rap" and "Leave money [i.e. 'him']
> alone".
>
> I have a vague sense that I've encountered this elsewhere, or
> that it is at least slightly common, but I can't find any
> additional examples. Parallel examples with other AAVE
> direct-address terms sound plausible to my ear (e.g.
> "Homes was doin' great!" (invented ex.)), but I can't find
> evidence for them either.
>
> Is anyone familiar with this usage--preferably with
> examples, but at least able to confirm or refute my
> suspicion that the construction has at least some
> currency? Is this construction or parallels used
> in any other way?
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED

--

!


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Nov 14 12:13:45 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 07:13:45 -0500
Subject: "Ginned up"
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.071345.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was asked recently about the first use of "ginned up" or "gin up", meaning
"to engineer" or "to excite." The (RH)HDAS has the original "to liquor up"
sense from the late 19th century, but the more modern senses only from 1973.
That's a big gap. Has it been closed or at least narrowed in the last six
years? None of my other sources even mentions it, and I tried searching the
ADS archives but received a "Method Not Allowed" error.

Paul
http://www.mcfedries.com/


From janivars at BAHNHOF.SE  Tue Nov 14 13:00:31 2000
From: janivars at BAHNHOF.SE (Jan Ivarsson)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:00:31 +0100
Subject: Yale drinks
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.140031.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another "Yale cocktail", found in a Swedish book: 200 Cocktailsrecept by T. Iceman, 1931.

1 glass of gin (dry)
1 dash of angostura
3 dashes of orange-bitter
Pour and add a little Vichy water (soda) and a few drops of lemon juice

Jan Ivarsson, Sweden
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: den 13 november 2000 17:52
Subject: Yale drinks


>    Oh, all right.  The things I do for that college!
>
> THE DRINKS OF YESTERYEAR
>    A MIXOLOGY
> Being the 200 Authentic Favorite Formulas of a Pre-Volstead "Wine Clerk" Who
> Smilingly Served
>    ALL MEN
>    and
>    YALE MEN
>    and
>    ALL THEIR GOODLY COMPANY
> Whatsoever "Little Hearts Desire"
>    Indexed with
> Foreword of Fond Recollections
> General Instructions
> and
> Allusional Headnotes to Individual Recipes
> (By Jere Sullivan, 1930--ed.)
>
> Pg. 28:
> Known to Yale Men Everywhere.
>    _Yale._
> 1/3 French Vermouth
> 1/3 Gin
> 1/3 Creme de Yvette
> Shake and strain into a cocktail glass
>
> Pg. 41:
>    _Copper Kettle_
>    Twice or thrice a year, on occasions hoary with custom and ebulient with
> spirit, such as initiations, convocations and reunions, this Nectar of Men
> was brewed and the Fathers and Sons of Old Eli quaffed it--in almost ritual
> of ne'er forgetting toast and pulsing jolly song.
>    This Punch is made only in quantity.  Its precise formula depended
> obviously on the number in attendance and the conservative or liberal
> character of the festive occasion.  The (Pg. 42--ed.) base of the Punch was
> Cider and Rum, Champagne and Claret and Maraschino being added to suit, lemon
> and sugar also to taste, and enough charged water to adjust to strength.
>    Making this Punch a few days ahead insured its being all the better.
> Charged water was added only when ready to serve.
>    The Author gives herewith a specimen formula of this Punch employed by him
> to prepare it for a _spirited reunion of twenty_ Old Grads:
>
> _The Traditional Yale Punch--the Wassail Bowl of Her Social Fraternizations._
> 6 lemons sliced
> 1 gallon of Cider
> 1 quart of St. Croix Rum
> 1 pint of Maraschino
> 1 quarter pound of sugar
> 2 quarts of Champagne
> 1 pint of Claret.
>    These ingredients were compounded on the evening of the nineteenth of the
> month; on the afternoon of the twenty-first; the mixture was taken to the
> place of reunion, placed in the bowl, a large lump of ice was given it and
> when it was about to be partaken, a very little charged water was added to
> guarantee it "life."
>
> Pg. 46:
>    _Smashes_
>    A Smash differed from a Cobbler or Cooler by offering a small and short
> rather than a tall and long cooling drink.  It was a hot weather drink, and
> of Southern extraction, as evidenced by the Mint.
> _Yale._
>    Use an old-fashioned Whiskey cocktail glass; add 1/4 loaf of sugar with a
> little water and a few sprigs of Mint; crush all together; add a few lumps of
> ice; a small quantity of Grenadine syrup; pour a drink of Gin.


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Nov 14 14:16:14 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:16:14 -0500
Subject: Technology terms acquiring non-technical meanings
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.091614.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm interested in what I'll call "multiple-personality" technology terms
that maintain both their original technical meaning and a second
non-technical meaning. For example, the technical meaning of the word
bandwidth is "the information-carrying capacity of a transmission medium."
Now you hear some people talk about bandwidth in the sense of "the
information-processing ability of a person."

What is this type of semantic change called? In The Cambridge Encyclopedia
of the English Language, David Crystal talks about a form of semantic change
called "extension" where "a lexeme widens its meaning," Is that what we're
talking about here?

If you have examples that I can add to my list, I'd be happy to hear them.

Thanks a bunch.

Paul
http://www.mcfedries.com/


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov 14 01:27:49 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:27:49 +0800
Subject: Yale drinks
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001113142254.025e2b10@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.092749.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Doug Wilson writes (in response to my plaintive cry about the Yale cocktail):
>>... most if not all of us can't even get our hands on a good
>>bottle of Creme de Yvette.  Or on why it isn't spelled Creme
>>d'Yvette, whatever it is.
>
>It seems to be a trade name for creme de violette or something very similar:
>
>http://hotwired.lycos.com/cocktail/archive/links/nc_creme_de_violette.html
>
>Possibly it is not produced any more. There are other similar products; e.g.,
>
>http://www.benoit-serres.com/pages/right3.html

I should have checked the web, of course.  Thanks for the references;
the latter one is especially provocative, since it takes us from Yale
in general to our new president-elect or pretender to the throne
(depending on your political affiliation) in particular:

                          W

                           7 / 10 Violette
                           3 / 10 Vodka
                           Couvrir de cr?me fra?che

Yes, a W.  Of course, this is a French site, so it's pronounced a
"double-V" [dubl at ve], where the two V's are the Violette and the
Vodka.  But it's nice to know we'll have an official drink for the
new administration, if that's the one we get.  I assume if it's Gore,
we can invent some variant of the Bloody Mary.

(Was that non-partisan enough for the apoliticos in the group?)

larry, still wondering why it's Creme de Yvette and not Creme d'Yvette


From jessie at SIRSI.COM  Tue Nov 14 14:47:32 2000
From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 08:47:32 -0600
Subject: more chad
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.084732.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Apologies in advance if these have been mentioned in the chad discussion:

pregnant chad
stippled chad (I think)
hanging chad

All three were used on CNN this morning; however, no explanations were given
for "pregnant" and "stippled".

Jessie Emerson


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Tue Nov 14 15:02:09 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (George S. Cole)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:02:09 -0500
Subject: Chicken lights...
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.100209.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a recent conversation with a long-haul trucker, I noted that on my
almost daily trek on I-81, I see a number of situations where a trucker
is speeding, comes up on a point in the road where, to the side, a
Pennsylvania state trooper is sitting in wait.  The trucker, of course,
hits his brakes, and the bright lights of the truck serve as a warning
that a state police officer is nearby.

The person with whom I was talking laughed, and said "those are his
chicken lights".  I asked for a clarification, and he said that when the
lights light up, those are chicken lights.  He mentioned that he knew of
one trucker who was experimenting with using a switch to turn off the
lights that react to braking activity, except for the times of a DOT
inspection.

When you step on your brake, and the lights come on, and can be seen by
the police officer, that is an indication that you know that you might
have been speeding.  So, the other trucker was testing a method of
hiding his braking activity.

Most of the web sources that I've looked at mention 'chicken lights' in
the mere sense of lights.  None that I've seen refer to the braking
light display as being 'chicken lights.'

http://home.att.net/~jeff.marck/suspect.htm
http://www.layover.com/slang.htm
http://www.highwaymanonline.com/Cool_Stuff/King_of_the_Road/body_king_of_the_road.html

Would like to know if anyone is aware of a source for the 'braking light
display' use of chicken lights.

George S. Cole    gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Tue Nov 14 15:01:37 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:01:37 -0500
Subject: more chad
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.100137.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A "pregnant" chad is a chad that is only indented slightly and is still
fully attached to the card. I've also seen them called "dimpled" chads. I
haven't heard of "stippled" chad. Perhaps you heard "dimpled." Here are some
others:

hanging chad - only one corner remains attached to the card.
swinging chad - two corners remain attached to the card.
tri-chad - three corners remain attached to the card.

Apparently, the above three will be accepted by a hand count, but in most
cases not by a machine count (because the attached chad would likely block
the hole when the card is fed through the machine). Pregnant chads are not
counted either way.

Any others?

Paul
http://www.mcfedries.com/

> Apologies in advance if these have been mentioned in the chad discussion:
>
> pregnant chad
> stippled chad (I think)
> hanging chad
>
> All three were used on CNN this morning; however, no explanations were
given
> for "pregnant" and "stippled".
>
> Jessie Emerson


From Allynherna at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 14 15:26:17 2000
From: Allynherna at AOL.COM (Allynherna at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 10:26:17 EST
Subject: "money" as quasi-pronoun
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.102617.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Couldn't the use of "money" as a quasi-pronoun come from "easy money"?  In
the Los Angeles area this is something that you hear people teasingly call
their friends and co-workers.
Allyn Partin-Hernandez


From maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU  Tue Nov 14 15:35:38 2000
From: maynor at CS.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:35:38 -0600
Subject: "Ginned up"
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.093538.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Paul wrote:

> I was asked recently about the first use of "ginned up" or "gin up", meaning
> "to engineer" or "to excite." The (RH)HDAS has the original "to liquor up"
> sense from the late 19th century, but the more modern senses only from 1973.

Is it used in the same contexts as "gen up" -- as in a network server?
I've always assumed that "gen" in this sense comes from "generate."
   --Natalie Maynor (maynor at ra.msstate.edu)


From cbooth at ES.COM  Tue Nov 14 16:15:28 2000
From: cbooth at ES.COM (cbooth at ES.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 09:15:28 -0700
Subject: Yale drink
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.091528.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Internet, that remarkable educational device, apparently won't help us
answer Larry's question. Google comes up with Creme Yvette, Creme d'Yvette,
and Cr?me de Yvette:
http://www.barnonedrinks.com/tips/dictionary/c.html:
"Creme Yvette - A violet coloured liqueur made from Parma violets, but now
almost impossible to find since the production has stopped."
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/violet/msg0418111218951.html:
"The Charles Jacquin company used to make a violet liqueur called Creme
d'Yvette but to my dismay stopped making it 25 years ago!"
http://cocktails.about.com/food/cocktails/library/recipes/blyalehtm.htm:
"Yale Cocktail - 1 1/2 oz. Gin, 1/2 oz. Dry Vermouth, Dash of Bitters, 1
tsp. Creme de Yvette or Blue Curacao. Stir with ice & strain into a chilled
cocktail glass."
http://hotwired.lycos.com/cocktail/archive/links/nc_creme_de_violette.html:
"This sweet liquor is almost always made in France, though the brand Cr?me
de Yvette - named after the turn-of-the-century French actress Yvette
Gilbert - is still made with a purple hue by Jacquin in Philly."
There's a Lautrec drawing of Yvette Gilbert at
http://www.eposterman.com/shop/item/53-200-0-6104.asp.
One way to solve the problem would be for someone to come up with an actual
bottle of the stuff so we can see how the Jacquin people spell it. I'd
gladly take on such a research project myself, but it would undoubtedly
prove fruitless for me to do it here in Utah. Somebody who lives in New York
or Chicago or Paris or someplace like that should do it. 


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 14 16:16:05 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:16:05 -0500
Subject: microwave (was: Query to ADS)
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.111605.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> writes:

>>>>>
A friend of mine is teaching a course for elem.-jr. hi English/Language
Arts teachers this Winter on "The Development of American
English."  Wolfram & Schilling-Estes is too long and technical for this
course.  Does anyone have a good recommendation for a course that meets
twice a week for 10 weeks (and will be taught largely by microwave?!).
<<<<<

An indication of semantic shift (or what to call it?): My first reaction to
this was to the thought of a course taught largely by microwave *oven*:
"How in the heck do they do *THAT*?!"

While I theoretically deprecate this kind of truncation (how many people in
the sixties thought that "transistor" meant a small portable radio?),
microwave ovens are common enough in my life and language, and microwaves
themselves (i.e., electromagnetic waves of wavelength 1mm-1m) rare enough,
that like most Americans I use the single word for the appliance.

-- Mark
Imprimis: Pro nugis noli sudare.
Secundus: Omnia sunt nugae.


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Tue Nov 14 16:32:08 2000
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 11:32:08 -0500
Subject: Query to ADS
In-Reply-To: <OF811CAFD0.E2836393-ON85256997.0058B027@dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.113208.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>A friend of mine is teaching a course for elem.-jr. hi English/Language
>Arts teachers this Winter on "The Development of American
>English."  Wolfram & Schilling-Estes is too long and technical for this
>course.  Does anyone have a good recommendation for a course that meets
>twice a week for 10 weeks (and will be taught largely by microwave?!).

Has your friend looked at the two books edited by Rebecca Wheeler? I
think that _The Workings of Language_ might be useful. (Praeger 1999).

Bethany


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Tue Nov 14 17:22:22 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:22:22 EST
Subject: cut-and-paste generation
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.122222.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        From an from The Chronicle of Higher Education
(http://chronicle.com), Tuesday, November 14, 2000: Digital-Library
Company Plans to Charge Students a Monthly Fee  for Access, By GOLDIE
BLUMENSTYK

[The article concerns a new company that intends to sell access to
books and journal articles to students]

  As for how Questia might affect the way students research and
write, Ms. Okerson says the service just creates a more robust
approach to what many already do now with information they  locate on
the Internet. "I keep hearing this called the  'cut-and-paste
generation,'" she says. "It's going to be up to  teachers and
librarians to keep instilling the values of  teaching and research."

[The "cut-and paste generation" remark is explained by passages which
appeared earlier in the original article:]

  Questia says it will have more than 50,000 scholarly books and
  journals in its electronic collection by January, and five
  times as many by 2003. The company says its service will help
  "time-crunched students" write their papers more quickly.

***

  Troy Williams, a 1998 Harvard Law School graduate who is
  Questia's founder, president, and C.E.O., says the service's
  search-and-copy features respond to the way students really do
  their papers. "They're not reading the books," says Mr.
  Williams.

GAT


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Tue Nov 14 17:44:01 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:44:01 -0500
Subject: microwave (was: Query to ADS)
In-Reply-To: <OF811CAFD0.E2836393-ON85256997.0058B027@dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.124401.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:16 AM 11/14/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> writes:
>
> >>>>>
>A friend of mine is teaching a course for elem.-jr. hi English/Language
>Arts teachers this Winter on "The Development of American
>English."  Wolfram & Schilling-Estes is too long and technical for this
>course.  Does anyone have a good recommendation for a course that meets
>twice a week for 10 weeks (and will be taught largely by microwave?!).
><<<<<
>
>An indication of semantic shift (or what to call it?): My first reaction to
>this was to the thought of a course taught largely by microwave *oven*:
>"How in the heck do they do *THAT*?!"
>
>While I theoretically deprecate this kind of truncation (how many people in
>the sixties thought that "transistor" meant a small portable radio?),
>microwave ovens are common enough in my life and language, and microwaves
>themselves (i.e., electromagnetic waves of wavelength 1mm-1m) rare enough,
>that like most Americans I use the single word for the appliance.
>
>-- Mark
>Imprimis: Pro nugis noli sudare.
>Secundus: Omnia sunt nugae.

I have to admit I know nothing about this technology.  "Microwave" is the
term the gurus use here, but what is the full, or better, term?  All I know
is that the main and the branch campus are hooked up somehow, the
instructor is videoed, and the class can respond "interactively"--but the
one teacher I know who's done it says he had very poor response from the
more than usually passive students.  Has anybody else tried this?

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 14 19:25:51 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 14:25:51 EST
Subject: Query to ADS
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.142551.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

< A friend of mine is teaching a course for elem.-jr. hi English/Language
Arts teachers this Winter on "The Development of American
English."  Wolfram & Schilling-Estes is too long and technical for this
course.  Does anyone have a good recommendation for a course that meets
twice a week for 10 weeks (and will be taught largely by microwave?!).  >>

Well, you just might have the friend look at a brand new book that is
certainly not too long or technical, being aimed at a non-specialist audience:

_How We Talk: American Regional English Today_  by Allan Metcalf (Houghton
Mifflin, Nov. 2000). While it mainly covers current regional variation (in
both pronunciation and vocabulary), it also has a brief historical
introduction, and it also has a chapter on ethnic dialects, and even one on
the movies. It comes in both hardcover and paperback.

- A.M.


From lingthings at YAHOO.COM  Tue Nov 14 20:55:23 2000
From: lingthings at YAHOO.COM (David Sanders)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 12:55:23 -0800
Subject: secular prayer
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.125523.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm working on a discourse analysis project on secular
prayer, or prayer that is not religion specific.  I
would like to look at lexical elements, such as
neutral terms for deity along with other
religion-neutral words that may be unique to (or help
to characterize) secular prayer, and structual
elements.  I also would like to look at social
elements, such as the situations in which these
"prayers" are expected or appropriate, such as in
schools or in political addresses or in greeting
cards.  I haven't been able to find much linguistic
research on this topic, and I was wondering if anybody
could point me in a useful direction.  Thank you.

David Sanders
University of Memphis

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/


From janivars at BAHNHOF.SE  Tue Nov 14 21:34:09 2000
From: janivars at BAHNHOF.SE (Jan Ivarsson)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 22:34:09 +0100
Subject: Yale drinks
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.223409.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Actually, it is "Cr?me d'Yvette". See e.g. Cook's Thesaurus at http://wwwfoodsubs.com/Liqueurs.html

"creme de violette (cr?me de violette)  Substitutes:  Cr?me d'Yvette (also a violet-based liqueur, but with a stronger flavor) or another violet-flavored liqueur"

Jan Ivarsson, Sweden

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: den 14 november 2000 02:27
Subject: Re: Yale drinks


> Doug Wilson writes (in response to my plaintive cry about the Yale cocktail):
> >>... most if not all of us can't even get our hands on a good
> >>bottle of Creme de Yvette.  Or on why it isn't spelled Creme
> >>d'Yvette, whatever it is.
> >
> >It seems to be a trade name for creme de violette or something very similar:
> >
> >http://hotwired.lycos.com/cocktail/archive/links/nc_creme_de_violette.html
> >
> >Possibly it is not produced any more. There are other similar products; e.g.,
> >
> >http://www.benoit-serres.com/pages/right3.html
>
> I should have checked the web, of course.  Thanks for the references;
> the latter one is especially provocative, since it takes us from Yale
> in general to our new president-elect or pretender to the throne
> (depending on your political affiliation) in particular:
>
>                           W
>
>                            7 / 10 Violette
>                            3 / 10 Vodka
>                            Couvrir de cr?me fra?che
>
> Yes, a W.  Of course, this is a French site, so it's pronounced a
> "double-V" [dubl at ve], where the two V's are the Violette and the
> Vodka.  But it's nice to know we'll have an official drink for the
> new administration, if that's the one we get.  I assume if it's Gore,
> we can invent some variant of the Bloody Mary.
>
> (Was that non-partisan enough for the apoliticos in the group?)
>
> larry, still wondering why it's Creme de Yvette and not Creme d'Yvette


From mlisecki at POLBOX.COM  Tue Nov 14 22:53:03 2000
From: mlisecki at POLBOX.COM (Michal Lisecki)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 23:53:03 +0100
Subject: pronunciation of 'urine'
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.235303.0100.>

How do you pronounce 'urine'? I have looked it up in the
KENNYON/KNOTT's 'Pronouncing dictionary...' and it turned up /'jurin/
but as I was in the US I remember some people in Chicago pronounce it
/'jurain/ with the /ai/ dyphtong.
Some other dictionaries I've tried claim /'jurain/ to be an obsolete
way of pronouncing it. However, I am wondering if it's more an
off-standard rather than just obsolete.
Do any of you say or hear people say /'jurain/?

--
Michal Lisecki <mlisecki AT polbox.com>



--------------------- [POLBOX - REKLAMA] --------------------
PRZETARGI W INTERNECIE - INTERNET W BIZNESIE dostepny 7/24,
profesjonalny serwis http://www.PrzetargiOnLine.pl
-------------------------------------------------------------


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 14 23:39:08 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2000 18:39:08 EST
Subject: Australian kids' slang
Message-ID: <TUE.14.NOV.2000.183908.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From The Australian:


 They're rude, crude and kids

 BY LOUISE MILLIGAN
15nov00

STRANGELY, June Factor has not  heard of Care Factor ? an abbreviation of
Care Factor Equals Zero and kidspeak for indifference.

 But the author of Kidspeak, a new dictionary charting Australian children's
language, has heard of bogans, piffing yonnies (throwing  stones), Kiss
Chasey, homies, penis butter, Babe-raham Lincoln, a fair suck of the Siberian
sandshoe and taking a chill pill.

 She knows there are 99 synonyms for cool and that an axe-mark is regrettably
not only an indentation in wood. . . .

http://news.com.au:80/common/story_page/0,4057,1416374%255E421,00.html

- Allan Metcalf


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 15 06:38:42 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 01:38:42 -0500
Subject: Yale drinks
In-Reply-To: <000601c04e82$a2af8220$15a7b2c3@janivars>
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.013842.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Actually, it is "Cr?me d'Yvette".

Not as far as I can tell. There are various spellings on the Web, most of
them wrong (obviously).

I looked it up in some bartending books. The majority spelling was "creme
Yvette", followed by "creme de Yvette".

I tried to buy it. The specialty liquor stores in my area don't have it,
haven't had it recently, and cannot order it. I phoned the Pennsylvania
Liquor Control Board; they don't list it as one of the products which is
made in or imported into Pennsylvania. They claim that their list includes
all products of Jacquin (apparently headquartered in Pennsylvania) -- and
there's nothing named "Yvette".

No cr?me de violette, either. One book claimed that Marie Brizard's
"Parfait Amour" liqueur is comparable, but its Web description doesn't
support this.

I went to the big library. I found ONE authoritative listing, in the big
Webster's Third (score another one for the home team): the listing is
"creme yvette" (that's right, no capitals), and the dictionary says it's
from a trademark "Cr?me Yvette" (that's right, acute accent -- I don't know
whether it's a typographical error).

I was unable to find a picture of the label. Perhaps B. A. Popik can find one.

The US Patent and Trademark Office Web database shows no such registered
trademark, alive or dead. A trademark (TM) need not be registered, of course.

The designation "Yvette" seems to be old: a 1918 cookbook --

http://www.bartleby.com/87/0026.html

-- shows a recipe for violet-flavored ice cream employing "Yvette cordial".

This appears to be an American liqueur: a Web search using French search
engines added nothing.

I guess "creme yvette" (capitalization [and diacritical mark] probably
somewhat optional) seems to be correct. Doesn't matter much, since the
referent apparently is unavailable. I guess our Yale martinis will require
imports from France ... or maybe we can just use a little violet extract
(and perhaps some vanilla extract and sugar to taste) plus some purple food
coloring? One Web entry permits the use of blue cura?ao instead of violet
liqueur ... would that be cheating? [I assume the recipe is designed to
present Yale's "blue" color, rather than implying an association of Yale
with violets per se (blushing or otherwise)? Any Yalies, please help me on
this!]

One Swedish Web site permits substitution of "Parfait Amour" (in a "Union
Jack"; Yale drinks may be different):

http://d1o958.telia.com/~u40504408/ginrecept/recept592.htm

(^_^)

Is the OED silent again?

-- Doug Wilson


From tb0exc1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Wed Nov 15 14:26:17 2000
From: tb0exc1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (callary ed)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 08:26:17 -0600
Subject: pronunciation of 'urine'
In-Reply-To: <200011142353030550.005D5C9B@smtp.polbox.com>
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.082617.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As a Southern given name, Urine is yu REEN and probably originated from
combining the name prefix Eu(r) with the suffix -ine. Many Southern names
are confected in this way.

***********************************************************************
Edward Callary, Editor                 Phone: 815-753-6627
NAMES: A Journal of Onomastics         Fax:   815-753-0606
English Department                     email: ecallary at niu.edu
Northern Illinois University
DeKalb, Il 60115-2863
***********************************************************************

            Visit the American Name Society Homepage:
               http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ans/


From Amcolph at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 15 14:34:06 2000
From: Amcolph at AOL.COM (Ray Ott)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 09:34:06 EST
Subject: "Ginned up"
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.093406.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The root you want is the OF engin (engine, machine) rather than Geneva (gin,
distilled spirit).  In particular, a "gin" in the sense of an apparatus to
which horses or other draft animals are harnessed and made to walk around in
a circle doing useful work such as milling, grinding, etc., to which the
vernacular "ginned up" relates.

Ray Ott


From janivars at BAHNHOF.SE  Wed Nov 15 17:38:06 2000
From: janivars at BAHNHOF.SE (Jan Ivarsson)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 18:38:06 +0100
Subject: Yale drinks
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.183806.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Cr?me Yvette" is possible if it is a brand name, like e.g. "Cherry Heering". 
I found "cr?me Yvette" in Time-Life Books Foods of the World, Recipes: Wines and Spirits, 1969, but
I found this on the Violet Forum: "The Charles Jacquin company used to make a violet liqueur called Cr?me d'Yvette but to my dismay stopped making it 25 years ago!"
If the "de" should be there, I insist on "Cr?me d'Yvette". Any elementary French grammar will tell you that elision of a final -e before vowel always occurs in the monosyllabics "le, je, me, te, se, ce, de, ne, que....". Example: "n'oubliez pas d'y aller".
There may be a subtle pun involved in the name: "Ivette" is an odorous flower, like the "violette", though I do not think that it was actually used for flavoring. But the name sounds familiar and logical to a French-speaking person who knows the Cr?me de violette very well.
The Liqueur Flavoring Reference Table gives Cr?me de Yvette as a registered trade mark, though I doubt this a little: on the line before is mentioned "Creme de Voilets" when obviously "Violette" is meant
That Americans often misspell French words and especially tend to either leave the accents out or write e.g. "cr?me" for "cr?me" is nothing new, and usually the people writing books on cooking or drinks are not linguists. But I think that when it comes to spelling, it is always preferable to keep as close to the original language as reasonably possible. Otherwise, you may run into things like the Latvian spellings "V. Sekspirs" or "Bernards Sovs", to take a couple of famous writers.
By the way, at least Cr?me de violette can still be bought in France. And it does not taste like Parfait Amour.
And thanks for the Swedish recipe address!

Jan Ivarsson, Sweden

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: den 15 november 2000 07:38
Subject: Re: Yale drinks


> >Actually, it is "Cr?me d'Yvette".
> 
> Not as far as I can tell. There are various spellings on the Web, most of
> them wrong (obviously).
> 
> I looked it up in some bartending books. The majority spelling was "creme
> Yvette", followed by "creme de Yvette".
> 
> I tried to buy it. The specialty liquor stores in my area don't have it,
> haven't had it recently, and cannot order it. I phoned the Pennsylvania
> Liquor Control Board; they don't list it as one of the products which is
> made in or imported into Pennsylvania. They claim that their list includes
> all products of Jacquin (apparently headquartered in Pennsylvania) -- and
> there's nothing named "Yvette".
> 
> No cr?me de violette, either. One book claimed that Marie Brizard's
> "Parfait Amour" liqueur is comparable, but its Web description doesn't
> support this.
> 
> I went to the big library. I found ONE authoritative listing, in the big
> Webster's Third (score another one for the home team): the listing is
> "creme yvette" (that's right, no capitals), and the dictionary says it's
> from a trademark "Cr?me Yvette" (that's right, acute accent -- I don't know
> whether it's a typographical error).
> 
> I was unable to find a picture of the label. Perhaps B. A. Popik can find one.
> 
> The US Patent and Trademark Office Web database shows no such registered
> trademark, alive or dead. A trademark (TM) need not be registered, of course.
> 
> The designation "Yvette" seems to be old: a 1918 cookbook --
> 
> http://www.bartleby.com/87/0026.html
> 
> -- shows a recipe for violet-flavored ice cream employing "Yvette cordial".
> 
> This appears to be an American liqueur: a Web search using French search
> engines added nothing.
> 
> I guess "creme yvette" (capitalization [and diacritical mark] probably
> somewhat optional) seems to be correct. Doesn't matter much, since the
> referent apparently is unavailable. I guess our Yale martinis will require
> imports from France ... or maybe we can just use a little violet extract
> (and perhaps some vanilla extract and sugar to taste) plus some purple food
> coloring? One Web entry permits the use of blue cura?ao instead of violet
> liqueur ... would that be cheating? [I assume the recipe is designed to
> present Yale's "blue" color, rather than implying an association of Yale
> with violets per se (blushing or otherwise)? Any Yalies, please help me on
> this!]
> 
> One Swedish Web site permits substitution of "Parfait Amour" (in a "Union
> Jack"; Yale drinks may be different):
> 
> http://d1o958.telia.com/~u40504408/ginrecept/recept592.htm
> 
> (^_^)
> 
> Is the OED silent again?
> 
> -- Doug Wilson

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From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Wed Nov 15 17:55:52 2000
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 12:55:52 -0500
Subject: Name that fracas
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.125552.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Slate (www.slate.com) is running a contest to name the ruckus in Florida.

Chad fever?
--
Evan Morris
words1 at word-detective.com
http://www.word-detective.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 15 05:21:05 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:21:05 +0800
Subject: Yale drinks
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001114234942.025edc50@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.132105.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:38 AM -0500 11/15/00, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>I guess "creme yvette" (capitalization [and diacritical mark] probably
>somewhat optional) seems to be correct. Doesn't matter much, since the
>referent apparently is unavailable. I guess our Yale martinis will require
>imports from France ... or maybe we can just use a little violet extract
>(and perhaps some vanilla extract and sugar to taste) plus some purple food
>coloring? One Web entry permits the use of blue cura?ao instead of violet
>liqueur ... would that be cheating? [I assume the recipe is designed to
>present Yale's "blue" color, rather than implying an association of Yale
>with violets per se (blushing or otherwise)? Any Yalies, please help me on
>this!]
>
I suspect you're right, and in fact I was wondering why blue cura?ao,
which is the only blue liqueur I'd known of before the current
thread, wouldn't have been used.  Only Yvette knows for sure.

Larry


From lists at MCFEDRIES.COM  Wed Nov 15 18:24:35 2000
From: lists at MCFEDRIES.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:24:35 -0500
Subject: Name that fracas
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.132435.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If it goes on as long as some suggest it might, then I vote for "chad
nauseam." Note that Slate's "best" is "Gator Wait," and they seem quite
pleased with themselves about it (they describe it as "a nice play on words
that takes a second to sink in"). Well maybe it needs to keep sinking, but
it just doesn't work for me. Unless, of course, in Florida "gator" rhymes
with "water."

Paul
http://www.wordspy.com/

> Slate (www.slate.com) is running a contest to name the ruckus in Florida.
>
> Chad fever?
> --
> Evan Morris
> words1 at word-detective.com
> http://www.word-detective.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 15 05:34:31 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:34:31 +0800
Subject: another /ou/-fronter sighted
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.133431.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Next time Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris shows up on
your TV screen, notice that this most powerful official in the world
(at least today) fronts her /o/s, as in her pronunciation of
"vote(s)" (a word which curiously comes up quite often in her
utterances).

larry


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Nov 15 18:38:26 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:38:26 -0500
Subject: Name that fracas
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.133826.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Last night on The Daily Show, they had a segment on the Palm Beach vote that
they called "The Sunshine Wait."

Speaking of The Daily Show, it's interesting that they've been calling the
elections "Indecision 2000" for months. Now several of the networks and print
media are using that title as well in their coverage. Possible WOTY?


Paul McFedries wrote:

> If it goes on as long as some suggest it might, then I vote for "chad
> nauseam." Note that Slate's "best" is "Gator Wait," and they seem quite
> pleased with themselves about it (they describe it as "a nice play on words
> that takes a second to sink in"). Well maybe it needs to keep sinking, but
> it just doesn't work for me. Unless, of course, in Florida "gator" rhymes
> with "water."
>
> Paul
> http://www.wordspy.com/
>
> > Slate (www.slate.com) is running a contest to name the ruckus in Florida.
> >
> > Chad fever?
> > --
> > Evan Morris
> > words1 at word-detective.com
> > http://www.word-detective.com


From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Wed Nov 15 18:51:00 2000
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:51:00 -0500
Subject: Name that fracas
In-Reply-To: <3A12D823.501119A5@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.135100.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:38 PM 11/15/00, Gareth Branwyn wrote:

>Last night on The Daily Show, they had a segment on the Palm Beach vote that
>they called "The Sunshine Wait."
>
>Speaking of The Daily Show, it's interesting that they've been calling the
>elections "Indecision 2000" for months. Now several of the networks and print
>media are using that title as well in their coverage. Possible WOTY?


I understand that Jon Stewart said something along the lines of "We never
meant for you guys to take it so seriously."
--
Evan Morris
words1 at word-detective.com
http://www.word-detective.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 15 05:55:58 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 13:55:58 +0800
Subject: Name that fracas
In-Reply-To: <028201c04f31$4edd6d60$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.135558.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>If it goes on as long as some suggest it might, then I vote for "chad
>nauseam." Note that Slate's "best" is "Gator Wait," and they seem quite
>pleased with themselves about it (they describe it as "a nice play on words
>that takes a second to sink in"). Well maybe it needs to keep sinking, but
it just doesn't work for me.

I first took this to be a spooneresque pun on Waiter-gate, in the
sense that we're all waiting and there is a semi-scandal involved,
but then (after a manual recount) I determined that it's intended as
a pun on "gator-bait".    I think.

L


From AWMPerry at CS.COM  Wed Nov 15 19:03:22 2000
From: AWMPerry at CS.COM (Andrew Perry)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 14:03:22 EST
Subject: Yale drinks
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.140322.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Grammatically speaking, Creme De Yvette is incorrect. French grammar demands
that the e be replaced by an apostrophe and the space removed. Thus the
correct form would be either Creme Yvette (as you said) or Creme d'Yvette (as
he said).

  Andrew


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Wed Nov 15 20:55:01 2000
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:55:01 -0500
Subject: Name that fracas
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.155501.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's Gatorade, the he-man drink... :-)

Laurence Horn wrote:

> >If it goes on as long as some suggest it might, then I vote for "chad
> >nauseam." Note that Slate's "best" is "Gator Wait," and they seem quite
> >pleased with themselves about it (they describe it as "a nice play on words
> >that takes a second to sink in"). Well maybe it needs to keep sinking, but
> it just doesn't work for me.
>
> I first took this to be a spooneresque pun on Waiter-gate, in the
> sense that we're all waiting and there is a semi-scandal involved,
> but then (after a manual recount) I determined that it's intended as
> a pun on "gator-bait".    I think.
>
> L

__________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl                 einstein at frognet.net     tel: (740) 592-1617
          home page:  http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 15 08:40:00 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:40:00 +0800
Subject: Name that fracas
In-Reply-To: <3A12F825.3441756@frognet.net>
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.164000.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:55 PM -0500 11/15/00, David Bergdahl wrote:
>It's Gatorade, the he-man drink... :-)

Ah, I should have known it would require another recount.  I'm sure
you're right, but I have to say that by this point, I think (much as
I dislike the beverage) Gatorade is too good for 'em.  Now,
gator-bait...

>Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>>  >If it goes on as long as some suggest it might, then I vote for "chad
>>  >nauseam." Note that Slate's "best" is "Gator Wait," and they seem quite
>>  >pleased with themselves about it (they describe it as "a nice play on words
>>  >that takes a second to sink in"). Well maybe it needs to keep sinking, but
>>  it just doesn't work for me.
>>
>>  I first took this to be a spooneresque pun on Waiter-gate, in the
>>  sense that we're all waiting and there is a semi-scandal involved,
>>  but then (after a manual recount) I determined that it's intended as
>>  a pun on "gator-bait".    I think.
>>
>>  L
>
>__________________________________________________________
>David Bergdahl                 einstein at frognet.net     tel: (740) 592-1617
>           home page:  http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 16 02:38:13 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:38:13 EST
Subject: "OK" sign in the food industry
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.213813.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    This continues discussion of the "OK" sign.

January 1955, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 48, col. 1.  The familiar
winking chef doing the "OK" sign is shown.  The page features recipes.

March 1955, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 2.  This is an ad for LE GOUT,
FEARN FOODS.  Fearn Foods Inc. was based in Franklin Park, Illinois.  A
winking chef doing the "OK" sign is on the label of the product (chicken base
for soups and seasonings).  The chef is shown three times in this ad.  The LE
GOUT ads ran each issue and probably date much earlier than this.

July 1955, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 118, col. 1.  The winking chef
doing the "OK" sign is in an ad for a restaurant range.  "More Chefs Prefer
VULCAN-HART."

September 1956, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 89.  This is an ad for
Downyflake baking mixes.  A very cheesecake Katherine Harris-type waitress
hold a dish of cake in one hand and makes the "OK" sign with the other.
"NEW!  Downyflake adds the finishing touch of GLAMOR to CAKE."  This is the
earliest I've seen a woman give the sign (outside of the Ballantine ads)...I
don't know if Katherine Harris has these legs, though.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 16 02:56:51 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:56:51 EST
Subject: Sloppy Joe & burgers
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.215651.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     These entries are from AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE.  I copied the index
page of recipes, not the recipes.  About forty years of AMERICAN RESTAURANT
are all in the annex, so if you want the recipe/full entry, it'll be a few
days.

February 1954, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 83:
Fishburgers...88

September 1954, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 59--_Pizza Burger--New Idea
in Sandwiches_.

November 1954, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 26, col. 1:
GRILLED STEAKWICH...
CALIFORNIA HAMBURGER...
(Col. 2--ed.)
CHICKEN SALAD SANDWICH (3-decker)...
DAGWOOD BUMSTEAD HAMBURGER...
CHEESE-BACON-TOMATO SANDWICH

April 1955, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 81:
Crabmeat Burger...126
Tuna Burger...126
Egg Burger...126
Nut Burger...126

August 1955, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 61:
Cheesy Beanburgers...62
Sloppy Joes...64.  (OED has 1961 for the sandwich--ed.)

August 1955, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 25, col. 2:
TOASTED WESTERN SANDWICH (OED has a later cite--ed.)
PEANUT BUTTER & JELLY SANDWICH

August 1956, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 71:
Souper Burger...71
Brunschweiburgers...72
Chickenburgers..72
Bacon Cheeseburger..77


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 16 03:10:23 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:10:23 EST
Subject: Cuban Sandwich
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.221023.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    "Cuban Sandwich" is in DARE.  See previous ADS-L postings.  This article
specifically addresses the Tampa restaurant.
    From AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, August 1955, pg. 54, col. 1:

_Special Demand for Sandwich Specialty_
100 to 250
Sold at noon by
Tampa, Fla., restaurant,
A southern "Dagwood",
it includes
boiled ham,
roast pork,
salami,
swiss cheese,
sour pickles and
mustard or mayonnaise
in 7-inch loaf
of Spanish Bread.
    (Pg. 55, col. 1--ed.)
    CUBAN sandwiches, a kind of southern "Dagwood," are one of the best
"short order" lunches in Tampa, Florida.  They are a specialty of Tampa's
well known Las Novedades Spanish Restaurant and as many as 100 are served at
noontime daily, with up to 250 of them merchandised on Saturdays.
    It is made up of a combination of boiled ham, roast pork, salami, Swiss
cheese, sour pickles and mustard or mayonnaise, plus Spanish bread.
    To prepare them, the chef first splits a hefty seven-inch slice of
Spanish bread.  On half the bread goes a base of boiled ham, covered with
roast pork slices; next, two salami halves; then strips of natural Swiss
cheese; a couple of slices of sour pickle, and a coating of mayonnaise or
mustard to complete the item.
    Dozens of Cuban sandwiches are made up in advance for noontime trade to
meet daily demand for them.
    (...)
    Las Novedades, first established in 1890, is operated by five partners
who have directed the restaurant since 1939...


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Thu Nov 16 03:34:19 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 20:34:19 -0700
Subject: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.203419.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This just in:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

> What was that about being a laughing stock?
>
>
> NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
>
> To the citizens of the United States of America,
>
> In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA and thus to
> govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your
> independence, effective today.
>
> Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchial duties
over
> all states, commonwealths and other territories.  Except Utah, which she
> does not fancy.  Your new prime minister (The rt. hon. Tony Blair, MP, for
> the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that there is a world
> outside your borders) will appoint a minister for America without the need
> for further elections.  Congress and the Senate will be disbanded.  A
> questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of you
> noticed.
>
> To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following
Rules
> are introduced with immediate effect:
>
> 1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary. Then
> look up "aluminium".  Check the pronunciation guide.  You will be amazed
at
> just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it.  Generally, you should
raise
> your vocabulary to acceptable levels.  Look up "vocabulary". Using the
same
> twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and "you
> know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication.  Look up
> "interspersed".
>
> 2. There is no such thing as "US English".  We will let Microsoft know on
> your behalf.
>
> 3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents. It
> really isn't that hard.
>
> 4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the
> good guys.
>
> 5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The Queen",
> but only after fully carrying out task 1.  We would not want you to get
> confused and give up half way through.
>
>  6. You should stop playing American "football".  There is only one kind
of
> football.  What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good
> game.  The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your
> borders may have noticed that no one else plays "American" football.  You
> will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper
> football.  Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls.  It
is
> a difficult game.  Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to
> play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not involve
> stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body
armour
> like nancies).  We are hoping to get together at least a US rugby sevens
> side by 2005.
>
> 7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using nuclear weapons if
> they give you any merde.  The 98.85% of you who were not aware that there
> is a world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky. The
Russians
> have never been the bad guys.
>
> 8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday.  November 7th will be a new
> national holiday, but only in England.  It will be called "Indecisive
Day".
>
> 9. All American cars are hereby banned.  They are crap and it is for your
> own good.  When we show you German cars, you will understand what we mean.
>
> 10. Please tell us who killed JFK.  It's been driving us crazy.
>
> Thank you for your cooperation.
>
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 16 03:41:11 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:41:11 EST
Subject: Reuben; MSG; Salad Bar; Coffee Break; Doggie bag
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.224111.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

REUBEN (or RUEBEN)

     From AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, Septmeber 1956, pg. 105, col. 2:

_National Sandwich Winners_
     THE RUEBEN, a hearty man-sized sandwich of corned beef, sauerkraut and
Swiss cheese on Russian rye bread, is the nation's top hotel and restaurant
sandwich in the opinion of judges of the National Sandwich Idea COntest in
which more than 600 different sandwich items are entered from all parts of
the country and Hawaii.  The Rueben was submitted by Fern Snider, chef at the
Rose Bowl Restaurant in Omaha, Nebr.
     (...)(Delmonico Steak Sandwich was second.  Curried Cheese and Olive
Broiler Sandwich was third--ed.)
     Winners were announced at a luncheon given by Standard Brands, Inc., in
New York City, with final winners selected by a panel of five food editors of
national consumer publications.

(This antedates OED by a month.  The recipe for "RUEBEN" is in column one.
It will be interesting to find a NYC newspaper's take on the name Reuben--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
MSG

     I don't know what Jesse has in the OED revised files.
     The following ad is from AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, August 1955, pg.
2:

Try _MSG_ and discover "The Secret of Good Taste"
MSG
99+% Pure Mono Sodium Glutamate
Crystals
   A Product of AMERICAN AGRICULTURE
   Available in
   10 lb. handsome canisters
   1 lb. functional shaker-top cans
   THE GREAT WESTERN SUGAR COMPANY
   Denver, Colorado

--------------------------------------------------------
SALAD BAR (continued)

     From AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, September 1954, pg. 58, col. 1:

_Customers Like to Make Salads_
     WITH a Salad Bar where guests may make up their own salad from a wide
choice of ingredients, and a fruit bar where breakfast guests may make a
selection of fresh fruits for their morning meal, Neiman's Good Food in
Gatlinburg, Tenn., has built a wide reputation for unusal food service.
     Always on the lookout for new ideas, Mr. and Mrs. Jack Neiman, operators
of the restaurant, discovered the salad bar idea while vacationing in Hawaii
some years ago and adapted it to their operation.
     (...)(Col. 3--ed.)
     Started 17 years ago, Neiman's has served over three-quarters of a
million guests.
     The restaurant was established in 1938 as a small dining room and
counter service operation with less than 20 seats.

(A pg. 59 photo shows:
NEIMAN'S
GOOD FOOD
HOME OF THE SALAD BAR)

--------------------------------------------------------
COFFEE BREAK (continued)

     From AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, September 1955, pg. 145:

"The 'Coffee-break'
stops customers for our
highway restaurant!"
(...)
     Promote the "Coffee-break"--to promote your own profits.
PAN-AMERICAN COFFEE BURUEAU, 120 WALL STREET, NEW YORK 5 N. Y.

(Did this organization start it?--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
DOGGIE BAG

     OED has 1964 for "doggie bag."
     This story (which re-prints a postcard mailer) is about the steaks at
Leonard's La Pena Restaurant in Miami, Florida.  From AMERICAN RESTAURANT
MAGAZINE, April 1954, pg. 84, col. 2:

_Bones for the Dog_
     "Finale.  If you have a pooch at home, the Leonards invite you to take
home a box of sirloin bones to pamper the palate of your favorite pup."

--------------------------------------------------------
SMOOTHY (continued)

    I've been copying G. Selmer Fougner's ALONG THE WINE TRAIL (NYPL
microfilm, 1935-1938?), a collection of his columns from the NEW YORK SUN.
This is from Part IV, pg. 87:

     _Smoothy_
    Lemon peel, one-half teaspoonful of sugar, jigger of gin, dash of
curacao, a few drops of cream, ice well and shake.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 16 03:58:58 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:58:58 EST
Subject: Wall Street jargon
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.225858.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     I did a lot of these over two years ago.
     From yesterday's WALL STREET JOURNAL, 14 November 2000, pg. C1, col. 2:

It's a dead-cat bounce...
The market is in a narrow trading range...
Bonds retreated on bearish comments from the Fed...
We're near-term cautious but long-term optimistic...
The stock market was own on technical factors...
The market fell on heavy selling by mutual funds...
The trend is your friend: Stocks have been going up...
Trees don't grow to the sky: Stocks stopped going up...
The market is looking a little extended...
Don't miss this compelling opportunity...
The market climbs a wall of worry...
It isn't a loss until you sell it...
Focus on total return...
It's cheap on a relative basis...
(Col. 3--ed.)
It's fairly valued...
We've got some great values in our portfolio...
We buy growth at a reasonable price...
We're long-term investors...
We think the stock is a potential buyout candidate...
The stock's oversold...
Nobody ever went broke taking profits...
The company's quarterly earnings beat expectations...
We've researched this company thoroughyl...
We're fundamental investors...
We're technical investors...
We buy companies, not pieces of paper...
Our strength is evaluating corporate management...
The company has solid fundamentals...
It's a New Economy stock: Don't even bother asking about earnings.
We rate the stock a strong buy...
We consider the stock attractive long-term...
We rate the stock a hold...
We rate it a sell...

--------------------------------------------------------
THISCLOSE--used by NEW YORKER.
DARNCLOSE--used by NEW YORK OBSERVER.


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Thu Nov 16 04:19:17 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 22:19:17 -0600
Subject: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.221917.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

Do we give Texas back to Mexico?  I am in Illinois.  I guess that makes me
French.  Or better yet, Mesquaqui (sp?).  They were here ahead of the
French.

----- Original Message -----
From: Rudolph C Troike <rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:34 PM
Subject: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE


> This just in:
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > What was that about being a laughing stock?
> >
> >
> > NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
> >
> > To the citizens of the United States of America,
> >
> > In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA and thus to
> > govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your
> > independence, effective today.
> >
> > Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchial duties
> over
> > all states, commonwealths and other territories.  Except Utah, which she
> > does not fancy.  Your new prime minister (The rt. hon. Tony Blair, MP,
for
> > the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that there is a world
> > outside your borders) will appoint a minister for America without the
need
> > for further elections.  Congress and the Senate will be disbanded.  A
> > questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of
you
> > noticed.
> >
> > To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following
> Rules
> > are introduced with immediate effect:
> >
> > 1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary.
Then
> > look up "aluminium".  Check the pronunciation guide.  You will be amazed
> at
> > just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it.  Generally, you should
> raise
> > your vocabulary to acceptable levels.  Look up "vocabulary". Using the
> same
> > twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and
"you
> > know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication.  Look up
> > "interspersed".
> >
> > 2. There is no such thing as "US English".  We will let Microsoft know
on
> > your behalf.
> >
> > 3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents.
It
> > really isn't that hard.
> >
> > 4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the
> > good guys.
> >
> > 5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The
Queen",
> > but only after fully carrying out task 1.  We would not want you to get
> > confused and give up half way through.
> >
> >  6. You should stop playing American "football".  There is only one kind
> of
> > football.  What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good
> > game.  The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your
> > borders may have noticed that no one else plays "American" football.
You
> > will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper
> > football.  Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls.  It
> is
> > a difficult game.  Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed
to
> > play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not
involve
> > stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body
> armour
> > like nancies).  We are hoping to get together at least a US rugby sevens
> > side by 2005.
> >
> > 7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using nuclear weapons if
> > they give you any merde.  The 98.85% of you who were not aware that
there
> > is a world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky. The
> Russians
> > have never been the bad guys.
> >
> > 8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday.  November 7th will be a new
> > national holiday, but only in England.  It will be called "Indecisive
> Day".
> >
> > 9. All American cars are hereby banned.  They are crap and it is for
your
> > own good.  When we show you German cars, you will understand what we
mean.
> >
> > 10. Please tell us who killed JFK.  It's been driving us crazy.
> >
> > Thank you for your cooperation.
> >
> >


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Thu Nov 16 05:00:55 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 21:00:55 -0800
Subject: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
In-Reply-To: <002e01c04f85$cda8a480$05060640@wiu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.15.NOV.2000.210055.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For those of us in the PNW (formerly, but rightly, "Oregon Territory")--I
guess that pretty much puts the kibosh on "54.40 or Fight" ...

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Wed, 15 Nov 2000, Tim Frazer wrote:

> Do we give Texas back to Mexico?  I am in Illinois.  I guess that makes me
> French.  Or better yet, Mesquaqui (sp?).  They were here ahead of the
> French.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rudolph C Troike <rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 9:34 PM
> Subject: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
>
>
> > This just in:
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > What was that about being a laughing stock?
> > >
> > >
> > > NOTICE OF REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE
> > >
> > > To the citizens of the United States of America,
> > >
> > > In the light of your failure to elect a President of the USA and thus to
> > > govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your
> > > independence, effective today.
> > >
> > > Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchial duties
> > over
> > > all states, commonwealths and other territories.  Except Utah, which she
> > > does not fancy.  Your new prime minister (The rt. hon. Tony Blair, MP,
> for
> > > the 97.85% of you who have until now been unaware that there is a world
> > > outside your borders) will appoint a minister for America without the
> need
> > > for further elections.  Congress and the Senate will be disbanded.  A
> > > questionnaire will be circulated next year to determine whether any of
> you
> > > noticed.
> > >
> > > To aid in the transition to a British Crown Dependency, the following
> > Rules
> > > are introduced with immediate effect:
> > >
> > > 1. You should look up "revocation" in the Oxford English Dictionary.
> Then
> > > look up "aluminium".  Check the pronunciation guide.  You will be amazed
> > at
> > > just how wrongly you have been pronouncing it.  Generally, you should
> > raise
> > > your vocabulary to acceptable levels.  Look up "vocabulary". Using the
> > same
> > > twenty seven words interspersed with filler noises such as "like" and
> "you
> > > know" is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication.  Look up
> > > "interspersed".
> > >
> > > 2. There is no such thing as "US English".  We will let Microsoft know
> on
> > > your behalf.
> > >
> > > 3. You should learn to distinguish the English and Australian accents.
> It
> > > really isn't that hard.
> > >
> > > 4. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as the
> > > good guys.
> > >
> > > 5. You should relearn your original national anthem, "God Save The
> Queen",
> > > but only after fully carrying out task 1.  We would not want you to get
> > > confused and give up half way through.
> > >
> > >  6. You should stop playing American "football".  There is only one kind
> > of
> > > football.  What you refer to as American "football" is not a very good
> > > game.  The 2.15% of you who are aware that there is a world outside your
> > > borders may have noticed that no one else plays "American" football.
> You
> > > will no longer be allowed to play it, and should instead play proper
> > > football.  Initially, it would be best if you played with the girls.  It
> > is
> > > a difficult game.  Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed
> to
> > > play rugby (which is similar to American "football", but does not
> involve
> > > stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body
> > armour
> > > like nancies).  We are hoping to get together at least a US rugby sevens
> > > side by 2005.
> > >
> > > 7. You should declare war on Quebec and France, using nuclear weapons if
> > > they give you any merde.  The 98.85% of you who were not aware that
> there
> > > is a world outside your borders should count yourselves lucky. The
> > Russians
> > > have never been the bad guys.
> > >
> > > 8. July 4th is no longer a public holiday.  November 7th will be a new
> > > national holiday, but only in England.  It will be called "Indecisive
> > Day".
> > >
> > > 9. All American cars are hereby banned.  They are crap and it is for
> your
> > > own good.  When we show you German cars, you will understand what we
> mean.
> > >
> > > 10. Please tell us who killed JFK.  It's been driving us crazy.
> > >
> > > Thank you for your cooperation.
> > >
> > >
>


From rkm at SLIP.NET  Thu Nov 16 08:22:11 2000
From: rkm at SLIP.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:22:11 -0800
Subject: Technology terms acquiring non-technical meanings
In-Reply-To: <02c101c04e45$730e4980$8321d0d8@mcfedries.com>
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.002211.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>...If you have examples that I can add to my list, I'd be happy to hear them.

What about terms that started out non-technically and became
specialized?  I'm thinking of things like perseverance.  The normal
"p at rs@'vir at ns vs. the psychological p at r'sev at r@ns - meaning a specific
repetitiveness.

Rima


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Thu Nov 16 08:39:30 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 01:39:30 -0700
Subject: FW: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE (fwd)
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.013930.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:08:44 -0700
From: ctb <ctb at U.ARIZONA.EDU>
To: ENGLISH at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: Re: FW: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE (fwd)

Rudy--

That "Revocation of Independence" argument seems entirely reasonable to
me except for the matter of the pronunciation and spelling of Brit
"aluminium" vs. correct Yank "aluminum."  I just couldn't live with
that.  This alloy was discovered, ca. 1805, by the Brit chemist Sir
Humphry Davy (1778-1829), who named it and pronounced it "aluminum" on
the basis of what he knew about alum and also on the basis of recent
French ("alumine") and German ("Aluminit") chemical discoveries.  Davy's
Brit colleagues, with some little knowledge of Latin, wrongly assumed
that he had surely meant to call the alloy "aluminium" on the basis of
false analogy with sodium and other such elements or minerals that they
were aware of, and they soon contamined the usage of this word in
England though not in America in the time of Noah Webster and the War of
1812.  In this instance it is the Yanks, with their felix-culpa
ignorance of Latin, who have preserved the historically correct usage.
The same goes, of course, for quite a few other Brit-Yank divergences.
Two examples that always come to mind first are the pronunciations of
"lieutenant" and "schedule."  Never mind all those other words from
Gallic and Hellenic populations on whom we Anglophones--both Brits and
Yanks in one measure or another--have long ago declared linguistic if
not nuclear war.

c


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Nov 16 15:46:06 2000
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 07:46:06 -0800
Subject: "Ginned up"
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.074606.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Most of us are introduced to Eli Whitney and his
cotton gin in elementary school.  The name "cotton
gin" puzzled me because the only "gin" I knew of was
the drink.  I finally connected "gin" with "engine"
after several years.


--- Ray Ott <Amcolph at AOL.COM> wrote:
> The root you want is the OF engin (engine, machine)
> rather than Geneva (gin,
> distilled spirit).  In particular, a "gin" in the
> sense of an apparatus to
> which horses or other draft animals are harnessed
> and made to walk around in
> a circle doing useful work such as milling,
> grinding, etc., to which the
> vernacular "ginned up" relates.
>
> Ray Ott


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
SLC, UT                        |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Calendar - Get organized for the holidays!
http://calendar.yahoo.com/


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 16 03:32:16 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 11:32:16 +0800
Subject: "Ginned up"
In-Reply-To: <20001116154606.40445.qmail@web9502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.113216.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Most of us are introduced to Eli Whitney and his
>cotton gin in elementary school.  The name "cotton
>gin" puzzled me because the only "gin" I knew of was
>the drink.  I finally connected "gin" with "engine"
>after several years.
>
Yes, but here in New Haven our kids learn about Eli Whitney and *his*
gin very early on, even before wondering how it relates to what their
parents drink in the summer.

--Larry, who lives in Whitneyville (section of Hamden) and drives
past the Eli Whitney 1816 Barn and the Eli Whitney Museum on his way
to work.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 16 18:09:03 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 13:09:03 EST
Subject: Big Biology; Cyberdildonics; Pizza slang
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.130903.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BIG BIOLOGY

   "The dawn of big biology" was in the FINANCIAL TIMES, Biotechnology
section, 15 November 2000, pg. 4, col. 1.  From col. 3:

   Systems biology heralds the dawn of "big biology".  Just as "big physics"
evolved to accommodate a massive expansion of research data and
computer-intensive problems, biology and medicine are poised for the same
transition.

   From the FINANCIAL TIMES, Telecoms section, 15 November 2000, pg. 6, col.
6, is a "Layman's Guide"--a "Glossary of useful terms" in optical networking:

Absorption...
Amplifier...
Attentuation...
Cross-connect...
Dsipersion...
DWDM (Dense Wavelength Division Multiplexing)...
Modulator...
Multiplexer...
OC 192...
Passive Components...

   The FINANCIAL TIMES, Telecoms section, 15 November 2000, pg. 15, col. 1
has the acronyms CRM (customer relationship management) and CTI (computer
telephone integration).
   The same FINANCIAL TIMES, Telecoms section, 15 November 2000, pg. 24, has
an ad for Global one (www.globalone.com):

   Global IP VPN
   e-business collaboration phone for Intranet ERP...
(...)  ...Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS)...

(SOMEBODY STOP THESE CRAZY ACRONYMS!!--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
CYBERDILDONICS; PIZZA SLANG

   YAHOO! INTERNET LIFE, December 2000, pg. 82, col. 2, has "slice of slang"
taken from MALEDICTA, reprinted in
augustachronicle.com/headlines/101696/pizza.html#1.  A "Republican pizza" is
a "GOP"--green peppers, onions, pepperoni.
   "Cyberdildonics" is on pg. 140, col. 2.  The internet can help you move
your partner's sex toys.  Oh joy.


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov 16 18:25:59 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 19:25:59 +0100
Subject: Ginned up
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.192559.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

On jeudi 16 novembre 2000 16:46, James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>Most of us are introduced to Eli Whitney and his
>cotton gin in elementary school.  The name "cotton
>gin" puzzled me because the only "gin" I knew of was
>the drink.  I finally connected "gin" with "engine"
>after several years.

I always thought it was somehow connected to the spinning jenny (jinny? ginny?
genny?) which in turn was related name-wise to a ginny mule which might have powered the
thing or its predecessor. But that's all old memories and half-thoughts so I dunno.


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Thu Nov 16 18:55:01 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 13:55:01 -0500
Subject: Today's Definition
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.135501.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I saw an interesting bumper sticker/definition today:

    GUN CONTROL
    means using
    BOTH HANDS

Commandeering language is an interesting strategy.  Is there a linguistic
term for such a practice?

bob


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Nov 16 19:08:24 2000
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:08:24 -0500
Subject: Cyberdildonics
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.140824.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The term "teledildonics," for the same notion of teleoperated sex, has been
around since the big VR boom of the early '90s. Coined by Howard Rheingold (if I
remember correctly), or at least championed by him.

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> BIG BIOLOGY
>
>    "The dawn of big biology" was in the FINANCIAL TIMES, Biotechnology
> section, 15 November 2000, pg. 4, col. 1.  From col. 3:
>
>    Systems biology heralds the dawn of "big biology".  Just as "big physics"
> evolved to accommodate a massive expansion of research data and
> computer-intensive problems, biology and medicine are poised for the same
> transition.
>
>    From the FINANCIAL TIMES, Telecoms section, 15 November 2000, pg. 6, col.
> 6, is a "Layman's Guide"--a "Glossary of useful terms" in optical networking:
>
> Absorption...
> Amplifier...
> Attentuation...
> Cross-connect...
> Dsipersion...
> DWDM (Dense Wavelength Division Multiplexing)...
> Modulator...
> Multiplexer...
> OC 192...
> Passive Components...
>
>    The FINANCIAL TIMES, Telecoms section, 15 November 2000, pg. 15, col. 1
> has the acronyms CRM (customer relationship management) and CTI (computer
> telephone integration).
>    The same FINANCIAL TIMES, Telecoms section, 15 November 2000, pg. 24, has
> an ad for Global one (www.globalone.com):
>
>    Global IP VPN
>    e-business collaboration phone for Intranet ERP...
> (...)  ...Multiprotocol Label Switching (MPLS)...
>
> (SOMEBODY STOP THESE CRAZY ACRONYMS!!--ed.)
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> CYBERDILDONICS; PIZZA SLANG
>
>    YAHOO! INTERNET LIFE, December 2000, pg. 82, col. 2, has "slice of slang"
> taken from MALEDICTA, reprinted in
> augustachronicle.com/headlines/101696/pizza.html#1.  A "Republican pizza" is
> a "GOP"--green peppers, onions, pepperoni.
>    "Cyberdildonics" is on pg. 140, col. 2.  The internet can help you move
> your partner's sex toys.  Oh joy.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 16 06:10:08 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:10:08 +0800
Subject: Ginned up
In-Reply-To: <909763699gbarrett@monickels.com>
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.141008.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:25 PM +0100 11/16/00, Grant Barrett wrote:
>On jeudi 16 novembre 2000 16:46, James Smith
><jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>>Most of us are introduced to Eli Whitney and his
>>cotton gin in elementary school.  The name "cotton
>>gin" puzzled me because the only "gin" I knew of was
>>the drink.  I finally connected "gin" with "engine"
>>after several years.
>
>I always thought it was somehow connected to the spinning jenny (jinny? ginny?
>genny?) which in turn was related name-wise to a ginny mule which
>might have powered the
>thing or its predecessor. But that's all old memories and
>half-thoughts so I dunno.

The OED has a whole bunch of "gin"s, all representing an aphetic form
of "engine" or of the Old French "engin"; many senses relate to
machines, devices, or contrivances of various sorts, including the
cotton gin.  The "jenny" of "spinning jenny" is not taken to be
related to "gin", but to derive directly from the girl's name,
although "the reason for this use of the personal name is uncertain".
If your scoring at home, the spinning jenny was patented by
Hargreaves in 1770, the cotton gin in 1796.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 16 06:24:20 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:24:20 +0800
Subject: Ginned up
In-Reply-To: <p0432040eb6392aadf48d@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.142420.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:10 PM +0800 11/16/00, Laurence Horn wrote:
>If your scoring at home, the spinning jenny was patented by
>Hargreaves in 1770, the cotton gin in 1796.
>
Arggh.  Due to a glitch in my keyboard, which is in rhoticity
recovery, an apostrophe before an R and an E after it mysteriously
cancel each other out.  Must be this damn chadless punch.

larry


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 16 20:27:54 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 14:27:54 CST
Subject: Cyberdildonics
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.142754.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>The term "teledildonics," for the same notion of teleoperated sex, has been
>around since the big VR boom of the early '90s. Coined by Howard Rheingold
>(if I remember correctly), or at least championed by him.

And what of Aldous Huxley's 'feelies'?

Mark.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Thu Nov 16 20:36:32 2000
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 15:36:32 -0500
Subject: chad
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.153632.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Deja.com indexes more than 18,000 hits for "chad"--the funniest of which
a song to the tune of Monty Python's "Every Sperm is Sacred."

-- text file attached
___________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl                 einstein at frognet.net     tel: (740)
592-1617
          home page:  http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl

-------------- next part --------------
with just...general apologies

There are Greens in the world, there are Socialists,
there are kooks, libertarians and then
there are those that lean to the Right Wing  -but-
I've never been one of them.
I am a Liberal Democrat
and have been since before I was born,
and the one thing they say about a Democrats is
they'll take you as soon as you're warm.
You don't have to be an idealist.
It's okay if you're out to lunch.
You just need some enlightened self-interest, you're
a Demo the moment you punch
...that card...
Every chad is sacred,
every chad is great,
If a chad is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
Pass one to your neighbor,
hold it to the light,
Now just tap that bit there,
It's a hanging chad, alright.
Let Ms. Harris spill them,
on the dusty ground.
GOD shall make her pay for
each pregnant chad that can't be found.
Every chad is wanted,
every chad is good.
Every chad is needed,
in your neighborhood.
Aged senile Crackers,
spill theirs just anywhere
but God loves those who treat their
ballots with more care.
Every chad is sacred,
every chad is great,
If a chad is wasted,
God gets quite irate.
Pass one to your neighbor,
bend it round just right,
Now just tap that bit there,
Oops - the camaras!  KILL THE LIGHT!
Every chad is useful,
every chad is fine.
God needs everybodies,
mine, and mine, and mine.
Let Ralph Nader squander
what's destined for Al's gain.
God shall strike him down for
each chad that's spilled in vain.
Every chad is sacred,
every chad is good,
every chad is needed,
in your neighborhood,
Every chad is sacred,
every chad is great,
If a chad is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

LisaB

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 17 04:29:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 23:29:15 EST
Subject: Chad; Ask a stupid question...
Message-ID: <THU.16.NOV.2000.232915.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CHAD

    Chad.  It's a country in Africa.
    OK, I know, everybody's gotta know "chad."  I went through EVERY SINGLE
EXTREMELY BORING BOOK ON PUNCH CARDS in the NYPL today, and I didn't see
"chad."
    OED has one 1959 citation and has "origin unknown."
    A SIMPLIFIED GUIDE TO AUTOMATIC DATA PROCESSING by William A. Bocchino
(Prentice-Hall, Inc., Englewood Cliffs, NJ, first edition 1966, second
edition 1972) has a nice "glossary of ADP terms."  From page 64:

_Chad_:  A small piece of paper tape or punch card removed when punching a
hole to represent information.

--------------------------------------------------------
ASK A STUPID QUESTION, GET A STUPID ANSWER

   I probably antedated ADP and other terms, but I don't have time for that
now.  The journal MANAGEMENT AND BUSINESS AUTOMATION began in 1959, but I
didn't see "chad."  A nice cartoon is in April 1959, pg. 27, col. 1.  A woman
tells her boss the results from the computer:

   "Well, ask a silly question, you get a silly answer."


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Nov 17 05:23:37 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 00:23:37 -0500
Subject: Yale drinks
In-Reply-To: <002001c04f2a$d56ec100$0ea6b2c3@janivars>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.002337.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"Cr?me Yvette" is possible if it is a brand name, like e.g. "Cherry Heering".

I can't resist putting forth my own jejune opinions; please understand that
my ignorance of French is profound.

I think a proper noun can be whatever the namer/owner assigns: some proper
names are probably intended to "look French" without being French -- e.g.,
"L'Eggs" brand stockings -- while others may not be reasonable in any
common language -- e.g., "Exxon". If I name my house "Chateau de If" then
that is its name. Is it bad English? Bad French? Bad Spanish? No, it's just
my name for my house.

>... on the Violet Forum: "The Charles Jacquin company used to make a
>violet liqueur called Cr?me d'Yvette but to my dismay stopped making it 25
>years ago!"
>If the "de" should be there, I insist on "Cr?me d'Yvette". Any elementary
>French grammar will tell you that elision of a final -e before vowel
>always occurs in the monosyllabics "le, je, me, te, se, ce, de, ne,
>que....". Example: "n'oubliez pas d'y aller".

In this case, I think it's probably "Cr?me Yvette" as a trade name, "creme
yvette" as a common noun IN ENGLISH -- selon Webster's Third. [This is an
Anglophone designation for an American product, and it need not satisfy the
Acad?mie in any case.]

But ... when I looked (unsuccessfully) for the product at the liquor store,
I found Jacquin "Creme de Strawberry", "Creme de Menthe", etc., etc., and
"Creme de Almond": what about this last one (I think it once was "Creme de
Noyaux" BTW)? I'd say if the Jacquin company chooses this name for its
product, then that's the name (although I -- like Jan Ivarsson, I suppose
-- don't like it much).

[I think at least some French authorities will accept retention of "de"
before vowel in certain restricted environments -- e.g., before an isolated
letter ("de A ? Z", "en forme de S") or before quotes ("l'?tymologie de
<<ivette>>") (although elision may be OK also). On the Francophone Web
there are many other -- perhaps simply erroneous -- cases: for example
"?poux de Yvette" outnumbers "?poux d'Yvette" in my search of
French-language sites. What about "Coordon?es de Auto-Transports S.A."
(apparently Swiss)?]

>There may be a subtle pun involved in the name: "Ivette" is an odorous
>flower, like the "violette", though I do not think that it was actually
>used for flavoring. But the name sounds familiar and logical to a
>French-speaking person who knows the Cr?me de violette very well.

Good point! (It was too subtle for me.) Apparently "ivette" = English "iva"
or "ground-pine"?

>... when it comes to spelling, it is always preferable to keep as close to
>the original language as reasonably possible.

But what is the original language in "creme Yvette" or "creme de almond"?
Apparently "creme" has existed as an English word for > 150 years. AFAIK,
both of these expressions originated in the US.

I agree that "d'Yvette" is preferable to "de Yvette" in this context. But
what about "d'almond"? (^_^)

-- Doug Wilson


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Fri Nov 17 14:33:00 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:33:00 +0100
Subject: Racial Slur Database
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.153300.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

Not professional and incomplete, but maybe worth a look.

http://www.phix.com/~ryan/rsdb/


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Nov 17 17:10:35 2000
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 12:10:35 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: pronunciation of 'urine']
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.121035.0500.>

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Subject: Re: pronunciation of 'urine'
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From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Nov 17 17:35:02 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:35:02 +0000
Subject: Racial Slur Database
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.173502.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: Grant Barrett <gbarrett at monickels.com>
>  >Not professional and incomplete, but maybe worth a look.
>  >
>  >http://www.phix.com/~ryan/rsdb/
>
>
>I find the title/slogan of this webpage interesting:
>
>The Racial Slur Database
>Making the world a better place
>
>Not sure I get the intended meaning here!


>Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Nov 17 19:50:26 2000
From: mufw at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Salikoko Mufwene)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 11:50:26 -0800
Subject: COME vs GO
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.115026.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This list has become unusually quiet... perhaps our minds are already into
Thanksgiving next week. Well, some of you may be interested in an exchange I
had with a foreign student of mine a couple of days ago. I was sitting in my
office and she asked, "Can I come in?" Then she observed that she could not
use
the verb GO in her question, although I am the one that was inside my office.
(Apparently a counterpart of either verb would be OK in Korean!) I concurred,
adding that there was probably a pragmatic constraint that requires that one
adopt the addressee's "camera angle" (to borrow something from Susumo Kuno)
under such conditions. If I had been outside my office too, next to her or
behind her, she probably should have asked "Can I go in?" and I think that
"could I come in?" would have been infelicitous.  I don't think Chuck Fillmore
discussed this kind of constraint when he published his paper on COME/GO in
SEMIOTICA, I think in 1973.

     I have been thinking and believe that the constraint applies in other
cases too. If you are puritanistic you may want to skip this paragraph and not
come/go/get into the following considerations with me. In sexual intercourse a
man can only tell his partner that he is coming, not going, I suppose. His
partner naturally can only invite him to come. Are there other cases where
such
a rigid constraint is associated with COME, against GO--or the other way
around?

How's your paper/project coming along?
or How's your paper/project going (*along)?

Of course, any dialectal variation in this regard?

Sali.


**********************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
**********************************************************
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From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Fri Nov 17 18:27:51 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:27:51 -0500
Subject: COME vs GO
In-Reply-To: <200011171748.eAHHmE716956@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.132751.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'll only comment on your first example!  I'd say that if you and the
student were side by side at the door, or if she was just behind you, she
could say "May I come in?"  If she was in front of you, I'd agree that
"May/can I go in?" would be more felicitous--but I suspect both verbs might
be used.

At 11:50 AM 11/17/00 -0800, you wrote:
>This list has become unusually quiet... perhaps our minds are already into
>Thanksgiving next week. Well, some of you may be interested in an exchange
>I had with a foreign student of mine a couple of days ago. I was sitting
>in my office and she asked, "Can I come in?" Then she observed that she
>could not use the verb GO in her question, although I am the one that was
>inside my office. (Apparently a counterpart of either verb would be OK in
>Korean!) I concurred, adding that there was probably a pragmatic
>constraint that requires that one adopt the addressee's "camera angle" (to
>borrow something from Susumo Kuno) under such conditions. If I had been
>outside my office too, next to her or behind her, she probably should have
>asked "Can I go in?" and I think that "could I come in?" would have been
>infelicitous.  I don't think Chuck Fillmore discussed this kind of
>constraint when he published his paper on COME/GO in SEMIOTICA, I think in
>1973.
>
>      I have been thinking and believe that the constraint applies in
> other cases too. If you are puritanistic you may want to skip this
> paragraph and not come/go/get into the following considerations with me.
> In sexual intercourse a man can only tell his partner that he is coming,
> not going, I suppose. His partner naturally can only invite him to come.
> Are there other cases where such a rigid constraint is associated with
> COME, against GO--or the other way around?
>
>How's your paper/project coming along?
>or How's your paper/project going (*along)?
>
>Of course, any dialectal variation in this regard?
>
>Sali.
>
>
>**********************************************************
>Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
>University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
>Department of Linguistics
>1010 East 59th Street
>Chicago, IL 60637
>http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
>**********************************************************


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 17 05:36:38 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:36:38 +0800
Subject: COME vs GO
In-Reply-To: <200011171748.eAHHmE716956@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.133638.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:50 AM -0800 11/17/00, Salikoko Mufwene wrote:
>
>      I have been thinking and believe that the constraint applies in
>other cases too. If you are puritanistic you may want to skip this
>paragraph and not come/go/get into the following considerations with
>me. In sexual intercourse a man can only tell his partner that he is
>coming, not going, I suppose. His partner naturally can only invite
>him to come.

Hope you're not presupposing that only a male partner gets to do so!
(There's also the fact that excretory, as opposed to sexual,
functions are referred to as 'going' rather than 'coming', whence a
collection of jokes that, it being lunchtime in some parts of North
American, I'll spare you the details of but have to do with someone
who didn't know if s/he was coming or going.)

More seriously, the kinds of variables with respect to 'come' and
'go' you mention in your post are discussed in a nice paper by Eve
Clark in Language (50: 316-32, 1974) called "Normal States and
Evaluative Viewpoints", which contains a whole bunch of minimal pairs
where coming is possible but going isn't, or vice versa.

--larry
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From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Nov 17 18:41:09 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 13:41:09 -0500
Subject: COME vs GO
In-Reply-To: <200011171748.eAHHmE716956@midway.uchicago.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.134109.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


>... she asked, "Can I come in?" Then she observed that she could not use
>the verb GO in her question, although I am the one that was inside my
>office. (Apparently a counterpart of either verb would be OK in Korean!) I
>concurred, adding that there was probably a pragmatic constraint that
>requires that one adopt the addressee's "camera angle" (to borrow
>something from Susumo Kuno) under such conditions. If I had been outside
>my office too, next to her or behind her, she probably should have asked
>"Can I go in?" ...

An interesting observation (at least to me). I agree with the interpretation.

A parallel example: a phone conversation across town:

"How are you?"

"I'm sick."

"I'll bring you some chicken soup. How's your friend who lives over here
near me?"

"She's sick too."

"Then I'll take her some soup too."

>... In sexual intercourse a man can only tell his partner that he is
>coming, not going, I suppose.

I think this is a special usage. "Come" = "have an orgasm" or = "ejaculate"
(male subject). By contrast, "go" = "excrete" (i.e., "urinate"/"defecate"):
e.g., "Is there a restroom nearby? I've got to go." There are some jokes
based on this, along the lines of "He doesn't know whether he's coming or
going." I suppose "come" < "come to climax" or something like that, "go" <
"go to the toilet" or something like that.

At the moment of truth, one does not want to tell one's beloved that one is
going ... but then again, perhaps I'm naive or old-fashioned ....

-- Doug Wilson
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From JIM.WALKER at WANADOO.FR  Fri Nov 17 20:22:32 2000
From: JIM.WALKER at WANADOO.FR (Jim Walker)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 21:22:32 +0100
Subject: COME vs GO
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.212232.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>      I have been thinking and believe that the constraint applies in
>> other cases too. If you are puritanistic you may want to skip this
>> paragraph and not come/go/get into the following considerations with me.
>> In sexual intercourse a man can only tell his partner that he is coming,
>> not going, I suppose. His partner naturally can only invite him to come.
>> Are there other cases where such a rigid constraint is associated with
>> COME, against GO--or the other way around?

How felicitous is the reference to a "rigid constraint" in this context?

Jim


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 17 07:34:17 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 15:34:17 +0800
Subject: COME vs GO
In-Reply-To: <021801c050d4$44b252c0$584bf9c1@water.wanadoo.fr>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.153417.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:22 PM +0100 11/17/00, Jim Walker wrote:
>  >>      I have been thinking and believe that the constraint applies in
>>>  other cases too. If you are puritanistic you may want to skip this
>>>  paragraph and not come/go/get into the following considerations with me.
>>>  In sexual intercourse a man can only tell his partner that he is coming,
>>>  not going, I suppose. His partner naturally can only invite him to come.
>>>  Are there other cases where such a rigid constraint is associated with
>>>  COME, against GO--or the other way around?
>
>How felicitous is the reference to a "rigid constraint" in this context?
>
hard to say


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Nov 17 22:07:32 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:07:32 -0600
Subject: A Supreme.
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.160732.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Perhaps ADS has previously noticed the promotion of 'supreme' to the status of a noun, and apologies if this is old hat. I see that the online dictionaries do not record this sense (except for AHD4 which defines it as a sauce or kind of serving bowl/sherbert glass).

A supreme is a supreme court justice, either federal or state. The Supremes are the US Supreme Court. Drudge had a headline about the 'Fla Supremes'. As a plural it refers to 1) two or more supreme court justices, or 2) (collectively to any full supreme court.

This usage has been around for some time. Presumably it derives as a witty play on "Diana Ross and the Supremes". I think it's here to stay. It certainly passes the test of usefulness. It is considerably shorter than 'supreme court justice' or 'high court'.

Comments?

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From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Nov 17 22:47:17 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:47:17 -0600
Subject: "chad" newspaper article
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.164717.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 A few days ago a reporter tried to contact me to find out the etymology of
"chad."  We missed connections, although I could not have helped him much
anyway.  He then kindly sent me an e-mail containing his article, which I
now share with  ADS-L.

-----Gerald Cohen
>
>
>      Published Thursday, Nov. 16, 2000, in
>                    the San Jose Mercury News
>
>                    Finding the
>                    origin of `chad'
>                    is as difficult
>                    as naming a
>                    winner
>
>                    BY MIKE ANTONUCCI
>                    Mercury News
>
>                    Chad?
>
>                    Well, there's Chad Everett, the love-beaded Dr. Joe
>                    Gannon on the CBS hit ``Medical Center'' 30 years ago.
>                    There's also Chad Stuart of Chad & Jeremy, the English
>                    singers from the mid-1960s British Invasion.
>
>                    Both Chads are people -- and as far as we know,
>                    unperforated.
>
>                    Then there's ballot chad. You know: the indented,
>                    corner-dangling or completely punched-out bits of
>                    paper that are part of the low-tech argument over
>                    whether George W. Bush or Al Gore is winning the
>                    Florida version of presidential bingo.
>
>                    But where did that specific word come from?
>
>                    ``Wouldn't we all like to know?'' said Audrey Fischer, a
>                    public affairs specialist for the Library of Congress.
>
>                    There are theories, informed guesses and trails of
>                    informational bread crumbs that are no neater than all
>                    this confetti-like chad.
>
>                    If someone has the indisputable answer, would that
>                    person please share it soon?
>
>                    The bulk of the speculation about the derivation of
>                    ``chad'' involves a piece of equipment known as the
>                    Chadless keypunch.
>
>                    According to an online dictionary of computing terms
>                    (http://burks.bton.ac.uk/burks/foldoc/index.htm), the
>                    equipment cut U-shapes in punch cards, rather than
>                    punching out circular or rectangular bits. So, ``it was
>                    clear that if the Chadless keypunch didn't make them,
>                    the stuff that other keypunches made'' would, by a sort
>                    of backward designation, be ``chad.''
>
>                    That keypunch was named after its inventor, the site
>                    notes, although there's no mention of that individual's
>                    full name.
>
>                    Some dictionaries and other reference sources trace the
>                    word ``chad'' to the late 1940s or strongly associate it
>                    with computing and data processing. Others relate the
>                    word to the Teletypesetter -- a keyboard apparatus that
>                    produced perforated tapes.
>
>                    There are other suggested origins as well.
>
>                    The 1993 version of Webster's Third New International
>                    Dictionary suggested that chad is Scottish for gravel.
>                    Another possible root word is chaff, whose definitions
>                    include ``seed coverings and other debris'' and
>                    ``anything worthless.''
>
>                    And in the category of theories for which there is no
>                    evidence: Chad is an acronym for Card Hole Aggregate
>                    Debris -- though that's possibly just a ``backronym''
>                    devised after chad was in use.
>
>                    One Web site definition
>                    (www.webopedia.com/Programming/chad.html)
>                    incorporates the idea that the word acquired
>                    ``mainstream'' status in 1993 when used in directions
>for
>                    a card-based voting machine in California.
>
>                    But Tony Miller, who became chief legal counsel for the
>                    California secretary of state in 1976 and later served
>as
>                    acting secretary, said the word was well-known much
>                    earlier.
>
>                    ``I remember chad being used back in the late 1970s,
>                    and it was a common term at that point,'' said Miller.
>
>                    Some Web sites imply that the word is venerable
>                    enough to be a museum term.
>
>                    For example, the ``computer museum'' page on the Web
>                    site for the University of Virginia's department of
>                    computer science
>                    (www.cs.virginia.edu/brochure/museum.html)
>                    illustrates a section on keypunch cards with photos of
>                    an old IBM punch spindle and a jar full of chad.
>
>                    Like the election, it's not what you'd call pretty.
>
>
>                    Contact Mike Antonucci at
>                    mantonucci at sjmercury.com or (408) 920-5690.
>



gcohen at umr.edu


From sagehen at SLIC.COM  Sat Nov 18 00:12:47 2000
From: sagehen at SLIC.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:12:47 -0500
Subject: Flood insurance, anyone?
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.191247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Our Sen. Schumer (NY) said tonight on NPR that our election  laws are
antidiluvian.  Well, I suppose we all feel that way, especially if we sell
insurance.
A. Murie


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 17 14:05:11 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 22:05:11 +0800
Subject: Flood insurance, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <l03130300b63b78d9e889@[216.207.138.191]>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.220511.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Our Sen. Schumer (NY) said tonight on NPR that our election  laws are
>antidiluvian.  Well, I suppose we all feel that way, especially if we sell
>insurance.
>A. Murie

Interesting.  I assume he must have pronounced the prefix [&ntay],
since otherwise it would sound exactly like that of "antediluvian".
In the latter case, you can spot a reanalysis in the orthography but
not in the phonetics.

larry


From sagehen at SLIC.COM  Sat Nov 18 04:00:18 2000
From: sagehen at SLIC.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 23:00:18 -0500
Subject: Flood insurance, anyone?
In-Reply-To: <p04320404b63aeaf65e4b@[130.132.231.212]>
Message-ID: <FRI.17.NOV.2000.230018.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>Our Sen. Schumer (NY) said tonight on NPR that our election  laws are
>>antidiluvian.  Well, I suppose we all feel that way, especially if we sell
>>insurance.
>>A. Murie
>
>Interesting.  I assume he must have pronounced the prefix [&ntay],
>since otherwise it would sound exactly like that of "antediluvian".
>In the latter case, you can spot a reanalysis in the orthography but
>not in the phonetics.
>
>larry

It was ANT EYE diluvian, loud & clear.
AM


A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at slic.com


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Nov 18 10:01:09 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 03:01:09 -0700
Subject: FW: REVOCATION OF INDEPENDENCE (fwd)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.030109.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This adds an addendum to Tim's comments about the effects in the Midwest:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
... wouldn't that put much of the West back into the hands of the tribal
nations?  and at war with the territorial Spanish, and even the Catholic
church?  wouldn't  that make us aliens in the Tohono O'Odham Nation?

And of course that pesky Prop 203 would be null and void... since us
palefaces would need to speak Spanish, or Yaqui, or O'Odham, or ???
whichever way we take sides in the struggle with the Spanish colonization
and conversion....

I'm afraid we'd have to redistribute the property of the aliens, however,
displacing many of the snowbirds who have adopted this as their home in the
"golden years."  Would we go back to the original land grants to figure out
how to return the land?  would TCC become property of those
Mexican-Americans whose homes were gobbled up and bladed over for
construction?

(this is fertile ground for the Gridiron Show, if one ever gets produced
again)...

thanks for the laugh, Rudy!

Jay


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Sat Nov 18 14:07:03 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 15:07:03 +0100
Subject: www.americandialect.org
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.150703.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

The ADS web site address is now working properly.

http://www.americandialect.org/

The admins at the University of Georgia (our hosting service provider) discovered
that Network Solutions had a stray host address registration record that was not
deleted when it should have been. I just finished a group traceroute from servers around
the world and all now lead directly to the correct address, confirming that the error
has been fixed.

Thanks for your patience.

--
Grant Barrett
ADS Web Geek
gbarrett at monickels.com


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Sat Nov 18 21:40:43 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 15:40:43 -0600
Subject: COME vs GO
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.154043.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

In My Inland North/North Midland dialect, 
How's your paper coming?
How's your paper going? 
-- would both be OK.

The following oberservation is scatological but perhaps interesting.
One "comes" during sexual activity.
One "goes" to the bathroom.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Salikoko Mufwene 
  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
  Sent: Friday, November 17, 2000 1:50 PM
  Subject: COME vs GO


  This list has become unusually quiet... perhaps our minds are already into Thanksgiving next week. Well, some of you may be interested in an exchange I had with a foreign student of mine a couple of days ago. I was sitting in my office and she asked, "Can I come in?" Then she observed that she could not use the verb GO in her question, although I am the one that was inside my office. (Apparently a counterpart of either verb would be OK in Korean!) I concurred, adding that there was probably a pragmatic constraint that requires that one adopt the addressee's "camera angle" (to borrow something from Susumo Kuno) under such conditions. If I had been outside my office too, next to her or behind her, she probably should have asked "Can I go in?" and I think that "could I come in?" would have been infelicitous.  I don't think Chuck Fillmore discussed this kind of constraint when he published his paper on COME/GO in SEMIOTICA, I think in 1973.

       I have been thinking and believe that the constraint applies in other cases too. If you are puritanistic you may want to skip this paragraph and not come/go/get into the following considerations with me. In sexual intercourse a man can only tell his partner that he is coming, not going, I suppose. His partner naturally can only invite him to come. Are there other cases where such a rigid constraint is associated with COME, against GO--or the other way around?

  How's your paper/project coming along?
  or How's your paper/project going (*along)?

  Of course, any dialectal variation in this regard?

  Sali.


  **********************************************************
  Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene at uchicago.edu
  University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
  Department of Linguistics
  1010 East 59th Street
  Chicago, IL 60637
  http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
  **********************************************************

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From umrantigen at UMR.EDU  Sat Nov 18 22:17:32 2000
From: umrantigen at UMR.EDU (UMR CIS Antigen)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 16:17:32 -0600
Subject: Antigen found JS/Kak@m.Worm virus
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.161732.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Antigen for Exchange found Unknown infected with JS/Kak at m.Worm virus.
The file is currently Deleted.  The message, "     Re: COME vs GO", was
sent from Tim Frazer  and was discovered in IMC Queues\Inbound
located at University of Missouri/Rolla/UMR-MAIL01.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 19 00:40:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 19:40:15 EST
Subject: Chad (continued)
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.194015.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     This is like a musical comedy.  I'm thinking CHICAGO.  Any minute now, I
expect Katherine Harris to go into Roxie Hart mode and sing:  "It's just a
voting hall where's there's a nightly brawl and all...those...chaaaaads!"

June 1960, GLOSSARY OF TERMS IN COMPUTERS AND DATA PROCESSING (Berkeley
Enterprises, Inc., Newtonville, Mass.) by Edmund C. Berkeley and Linda L.
Lovett.  Pg. 16:
chad--A small piece of paper tape or punch card removed when punching a hole
to represent information.
chadless--Paper Tape.  A type of punching of paper tape in which each chad is
left fastened by about a quarter of the circumference of the hole, at the
leading edge.  This mode of punching is useful where (1) it is undesirable to
destroy information written or printed on the punched tape or (2) it is
undesirable to produce chads.  Chadless punched paper tape must be sensed by
mechanical fingers, for the presence of chad in the tape would interfere with
reliable electrical or photoelectric reading of the paper tape.

1960--GLOSSARY OF TERMS USED IN AUTOMATIC DATA PROCESSING (Business
Publications ltd., London), edited by Erroll de Burgh Wilmot.  Pg. 10, col. 2:
CHAD: n.  Piece of paper separated from a tape when a hole is punched through
it.
CHADLESS TAPE: n.  Paper tape in which a code is punched without perforating
completely, hence without making CHADS (_q.v._).

1962--COMMUNICATIONS DICTIONARY (John F. Rider Publisher, Inc., NY) by James
F. Holmes.  (Same as 1965 below--ed.)

1965--DATA TRANSMISSION AND DATA PROCESSING DICTIONARY (John F. Rider
Publisher, Inc., NY) by James F. Holmes.  Pg. 13, col. 2:
_chad:_  Perforations severed from paper tape or cards.
(Pg. 14, col. 1--ed.)
_chadless tape:_  Tape used in printing telegraphy (teletypewriter
operation).  The perforations are not completely severed from the tape,
thereby permitting the characters representing the perforations in the tape
to be printed on the same tape.
_chad tape:_  Tape used in printing telegraphy (teletypewriter operation).
The perforations are severed from the tape making holes representing
characters.  The characters are not normally printed on chad tape.

1966--COMPUTER AND DATA PROCESSING, DICTIONARY AND GUIDE (Prentice-Hall) by
Jack Horn.  Pg. 20:
_Chad:_  a piece of paper removed when punching holes in paper tape.
_Chad Tape:_  the type of paper tape on which the discs of papers are
entirely detached, giving "clean hole" punching.  Contrasts with _Chadless
Tape_.
_Chadless Tape:_  the type of paper tape in which the punching does not
produce a clean hole, in that the disc of paper is not completely cut out.
Information can be printed over the tape "holes" as the paper fills the
"holes."  Contrasts with _Chad Tape._

1972--IBM DATA PROCESSING GLOSSARY.  Pg. 20, col. 2:
_chad._  The piece of material removed when forming a hole or notch in a
storage medium such as punched tape or punched cards.  Synonymous with chip.
_chadded._  Pertaining to the punching of tape in which chad results.
_chadless._  Pertaining to the punching of tape in which chad does not result.
_chadless tape._  Perforated tape with the chad partially attached, to
facilitate interpretive printing on the tape.

1981--THE DEVIL'S DP DICTIONARY (McGraw-Hill Book Company) by Stan
Kelly-Bootle.  Pg. 28:
_chad_ n. (plural _chadim_)  A piece of confetto produced by a tape or card
punch.
_chadless tape_ n.  Paper tape prepared on a punch with blunt pins.  _See
also_ CHAD.

1983--THE ILLUSTRATED DICTIONARY OF TYPOGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION (Rochester
Institute of Technology, NY) by Professor Michael L. Kleper.  Pg. 30:
_chad_  The waste material produced during the perforation of paper or
plastic tape.
_chadded paper_  Perforated tape with the holes completely removed.  See
chadless tape.
_chadless tape_  Paper or plastic tape punched so that the holes are not
entirely severed from the tape.


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Sun Nov 19 00:48:30 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 19:48:30 -0500
Subject: JS/Kak@m.Worm virus removal/prevention...
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.194830.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

With regard to the JS/Kak virus that was attached to a message sent to
the list, a patch is available from Microsoft, to PREVENT infection.
Information at:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/virus/kakworm.asp

Some antivirus software companies, with information about the virus, and
possible disinfection methods, at:
http://www.f-secure.com/v-descs/kak.htm
http://vil.mcafee.com/dispVirus.asp?virus_k=10509&
http://download.nai.com/products/mcafee-avert/JsKak.htm  [highly
detailed]
http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/wscript.kakworm.html

Additional information from Microsoft, relative to security, and
anti-virus information, in general, at:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/virus.asp

Not meaning to waste bandwidth, with this non-dialect message, but
thought that the information might be of help to a reader or two.  If
the sending of virus encrusted messages can be avoided, so much the
better.

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 19 01:36:55 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 20:36:55 EST
Subject: Sepia (1960-1963); "New York Minute"
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.203655.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   SEPIA was a "LIFE magazine" version of JET or EBONY or ESSENCE.  It was
published in Texas, but covered the entire U. S.
   One of the many things that I did in my day at the Library of Congress
last week was to look for "New York Minute."  It's not in Peter Tamony's word
list.  DARE places "New York Minute" in Texas in the 1960s.  A recent FYI
column in the NEW YORK TIMES addressed "New York Minute."
   The New York Jets had many players from Texas and a flashy quarterback
from the South named Joe Namath.  I checked 1960s football stories in the
Houston newspapers when the New York Jets played the Houston Oilers (usually,
twice a year).  I did NOT find "New York Minute."
   SEPIA had a regular column titled "AROUND THE U. S. IN FIVE MINUTES."
There seems to be a New York/Harlem story in each issue, so I'll minutely
check about seven more years of it next week.


February 1960, SEPIA, pg. 30, cols. 1-2 subhead--_Negroes, onced barred from
most Tinsel City gay spots, now mean the difference between turning a profit
and bankruptcy for many of them_.

April 1960, SEPIA, pg. 16, col. 3, cartoon of a bartender showing a boxing
ring in his establishment--"We installed it for our customers.  Business is
bad enough without a lot of 'let's just step outside and say that.'"

April 1960, SEPIA, pg. 36, col. 3:
   In a recent "Meeting of the Little Foxes" confab held in the Ford
Auditorium, a special "Foxey" award was handed out to high fashion queen
Dorothea Towles.
   It would seem that Howard barely has time these days to make hats and to
market them, what with all the big activities of his Shutterbugs.  Indeed, he
is now busily preparing for a 1960 tour of "The Little Foxes" (the models) to
European countries...
(See HDAS for "fox," and August 1961 entry below--ed.)

May 1960, SEPIA, pg. 46, col. 1, photo shows a sign that reads:
Andrew Battistella
Originator of the Famous
POOR BOY SANDWICHES
FRENCH MARKET
LUNCH & COFFEE STAND
Miss Viola Battistella, Prop.

June 1960, SEPIA, pg. 6, col. 3, cartoon of a boy listening to an ice cream
truck's jingle--"Listen, Helen, they're playing our song."

July 1960, SEPIA, Pg. 30, col. 1--By now he has grown accustomed to what he
calls the (Col. 2--ed.) "hate stare" given Negroes by whites.

November 1960, SEPIA, pg. 52, cols. 1-2--_WHAT HAVE THE SIT-IN DEMONSTRATIONS
ACCOMPLISHED?_

January 1961, SEPIA, pg. 3, col. 3 ad--(Doctor gives "OK" sign--ed.)

February 1961, SEPIA, pg. 75, col. 2--_Every time he is on basketball court
Elgin Baylor proves that he is "Mr. Everything."_

March 1961, SEPIA, pg. 24, col. 2, headline--_He's really got "what it
takes."_

March 1961, SEPIA, pg. 26, col. 1--_COED, 17, FACING A "FEDERAL CASE."_  (See
ADS-L archives for "federal case"--ed.)

March 1961, SEPIA, pg. 51, col. 1--"I'm no sick comedian!"  (Redd Foxx--ed.)

April 1961, SEPIA, pg. 42, cols. 1-2 subhead--_A group of Hollywood
celebrities who call themselves the "rat Pack" performed before a jam-packed
Carnegie Hall audience to boost integration in the South.

May 1961, SEPIA, pg. 60, col. 2, headline--_Actors, announcers, editors rub
shoulders_.

August 1961, SEPIA, pg. 64, col. 2--LOS ANGELES was the host city this year
for the third annual Little Foxes Fashion Fiesta, a brain-child of dimunitive
hat designer Bill Howard.  In what has quickly become one of the most unique
of national events for Negro models, lovely lasses representing such cities
as Detroit, St. Louis, Cleveland, Chicago, Los Angeles and Gary, Indiana,
gathered on the sunswept West Coast for two days of elaborate events.

January 1962, SEPIA, pg. 38, col. 1, headline--_Coach Places Emphasis On
Building Character_.

January 1962, SEPIA, pg. 39, col. 2--Taking the label from (Florida--ed.)
A&M's motto, "Blood, Sweat and Tears," he applied them to his three football
units and fanned the fire of combat and rivalry.

February 1962, SEPIA, pg. 42--"Everyone you meet says, 'Some of my best
friends are Negroes.'"

February 1962, SEPIA, pg. 42, col. 2--And so it goes.

September 1962, SEPIA, pg. 49, col. 1, headline--Why Ray Charles Sings
Country Music.

September 1962, SEPIA, pg. 57, col. 1, headline--_JOHNNY HARTMAN...A SINGER'S
SINGER._

January 1963, SEPIA, pg. 28 photo of Redd Foxx with a towel on his
head--"Still using that greasy kid stuff?"

January 1963, SEPIA, pg. 76, col. 1--In this column, Dan (Burley--ed.) got
down to the nitty-gritty of the big-city Negro life...

February 1963, SEPIA, pg. 56, col. 1, headline--_aretha franklin: SOUL
SINGER_.

February 1963, SEPIA, pg. 58, col. 1--Singer digs into plates of "soul food"
when she feels energy running low.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Nov 18 13:24:37 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:24:37 +0800
Subject: new verb (to me) in Times Magazine
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.212437.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, not in Safire's column, but in the next piece, "The New
Economy/Dot Dot Dot?", on the fate of "the victims of the recent
dot-com layoffs".  Says interviewee Trina Williams, who was downsized
out of her job at RealNames Corp. last June,

"For the last couple of months I've been consulting at my favorite
nonprofit, Community Impact, in Palo Alto.  As one person here said,
I'm DOT-ORG-ING for a while instead of dot-com-ing.  It provides the
meaning many of us are looking for in our work."

(NYT Magazine, 11.19.00, p. 44, emphasis added)

larry

[If enough people do it, it could turn into a dot-orgy, if they don't
mind indulging in a little harmless velar softening along the way.]


From jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM  Sun Nov 19 02:47:22 2000
From: jwm at URSOLARIS.SPDCC.COM (Jeffrey William McKeough)
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 21:47:22 -0500
Subject: new verb (to me) in Times Magazine
In-Reply-To: <p04320400b63c317cbf33@[130.132.231.247]> from "Laurence Horn" at
 Nov 18, 2000 09:24:37 PM
Message-ID: <SAT.18.NOV.2000.214722.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I heard a new verb today, myself: "I've never chadded a ballot.  We
have the machines with the levers."

--
Jeffrey William   Do things gradually (Do it slow!)
   McKeough       But bring more tragedy (Do it slow!)
jwm at spdcc.com     Why don't you see it?  Why don't you feel it?
(or spdcc.net)    I don't know!  I don't know! - Mississippi Goddam


From nyinstitute at VIABCP.COM  Sun Nov 19 05:55:38 2000
From: nyinstitute at VIABCP.COM (Richard Petty Deegan)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 00:55:38 -0500
Subject: new verb (to me) in Times Magazine
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.005538.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We've had something similar here in Peru since the elections in april :
Ongiando, whose english version would be NGOing.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2000 8:24 AM
Subject: new verb (to me) in Times Magazine


> No, not in Safire's column, but in the next piece, "The New
> Economy/Dot Dot Dot?", on the fate of "the victims of the recent
> dot-com layoffs".  Says interviewee Trina Williams, who was downsized
> out of her job at RealNames Corp. last June,
>
> "For the last couple of months I've been consulting at my favorite
> nonprofit, Community Impact, in Palo Alto.  As one person here said,
> I'm DOT-ORG-ING for a while instead of dot-com-ing.  It provides the
> meaning many of us are looking for in our work."
>
> (NYT Magazine, 11.19.00, p. 44, emphasis added)
>
> larry
>
> [If enough people do it, it could turn into a dot-orgy, if they don't
> mind indulging in a little harmless velar softening along the way.]
>


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov 19 13:55:08 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 08:55:08 -0500
Subject: Sepia (1960-1963); "New York Minute"
In-Reply-To: <f4.4a7e8e0.274888b7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.085508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

Be careful. Joe Namath was not FROM the South (although he played his
college ball at Alabama). He was from that goldmine of professional
football players known as western Pennsylvania.

dInIs

>   SEPIA was a "LIFE magazine" version of JET or EBONY or ESSENCE.  It was
>published in Texas, but covered the entire U. S.
>   One of the many things that I did in my day at the Library of Congress
>last week was to look for "New York Minute."  It's not in Peter Tamony's word
>list.  DARE places "New York Minute" in Texas in the 1960s.  A recent FYI
>column in the NEW YORK TIMES addressed "New York Minute."
>   The New York Jets had many players from Texas and a flashy quarterback
>from the South named Joe Namath.  I checked 1960s football stories in the
>Houston newspapers when the New York Jets played the Houston Oilers (usually,
>twice a year).  I did NOT find "New York Minute."
>   SEPIA had a regular column titled "AROUND THE U. S. IN FIVE MINUTES."
>There seems to be a New York/Harlem story in each issue, so I'll minutely
>check about seven more years of it next week.
>
>
>February 1960, SEPIA, pg. 30, cols. 1-2 subhead--_Negroes, onced barred from
>most Tinsel City gay spots, now mean the difference between turning a profit
>and bankruptcy for many of them_.
>
>April 1960, SEPIA, pg. 16, col. 3, cartoon of a bartender showing a boxing
>ring in his establishment--"We installed it for our customers.  Business is
>bad enough without a lot of 'let's just step outside and say that.'"
>
>April 1960, SEPIA, pg. 36, col. 3:
>   In a recent "Meeting of the Little Foxes" confab held in the Ford
>Auditorium, a special "Foxey" award was handed out to high fashion queen
>Dorothea Towles.
>   It would seem that Howard barely has time these days to make hats and to
>market them, what with all the big activities of his Shutterbugs.  Indeed, he
>is now busily preparing for a 1960 tour of "The Little Foxes" (the models) to
>European countries...
>(See HDAS for "fox," and August 1961 entry below--ed.)
>
>May 1960, SEPIA, pg. 46, col. 1, photo shows a sign that reads:
>Andrew Battistella
>Originator of the Famous
>POOR BOY SANDWICHES
>FRENCH MARKET
>LUNCH & COFFEE STAND
>Miss Viola Battistella, Prop.
>
>June 1960, SEPIA, pg. 6, col. 3, cartoon of a boy listening to an ice cream
>truck's jingle--"Listen, Helen, they're playing our song."
>
>July 1960, SEPIA, Pg. 30, col. 1--By now he has grown accustomed to what he
>calls the (Col. 2--ed.) "hate stare" given Negroes by whites.
>
>November 1960, SEPIA, pg. 52, cols. 1-2--_WHAT HAVE THE SIT-IN DEMONSTRATIONS
>ACCOMPLISHED?_
>
>January 1961, SEPIA, pg. 3, col. 3 ad--(Doctor gives "OK" sign--ed.)
>
>February 1961, SEPIA, pg. 75, col. 2--_Every time he is on basketball court
>Elgin Baylor proves that he is "Mr. Everything."_
>
>March 1961, SEPIA, pg. 24, col. 2, headline--_He's really got "what it
>takes."_
>
>March 1961, SEPIA, pg. 26, col. 1--_COED, 17, FACING A "FEDERAL CASE."_  (See
>ADS-L archives for "federal case"--ed.)
>
>March 1961, SEPIA, pg. 51, col. 1--"I'm no sick comedian!"  (Redd Foxx--ed.)
>
>April 1961, SEPIA, pg. 42, cols. 1-2 subhead--_A group of Hollywood
>celebrities who call themselves the "rat Pack" performed before a jam-packed
>Carnegie Hall audience to boost integration in the South.
>
>May 1961, SEPIA, pg. 60, col. 2, headline--_Actors, announcers, editors rub
>shoulders_.
>
>August 1961, SEPIA, pg. 64, col. 2--LOS ANGELES was the host city this year
>for the third annual Little Foxes Fashion Fiesta, a brain-child of dimunitive
>hat designer Bill Howard.  In what has quickly become one of the most unique
>of national events for Negro models, lovely lasses representing such cities
>as Detroit, St. Louis, Cleveland, Chicago, Los Angeles and Gary, Indiana,
>gathered on the sunswept West Coast for two days of elaborate events.
>
>January 1962, SEPIA, pg. 38, col. 1, headline--_Coach Places Emphasis On
>Building Character_.
>
>January 1962, SEPIA, pg. 39, col. 2--Taking the label from (Florida--ed.)
>A&M's motto, "Blood, Sweat and Tears," he applied them to his three football
>units and fanned the fire of combat and rivalry.
>
>February 1962, SEPIA, pg. 42--"Everyone you meet says, 'Some of my best
>friends are Negroes.'"
>
>February 1962, SEPIA, pg. 42, col. 2--And so it goes.
>
>September 1962, SEPIA, pg. 49, col. 1, headline--Why Ray Charles Sings
>Country Music.
>
>September 1962, SEPIA, pg. 57, col. 1, headline--_JOHNNY HARTMAN...A SINGER'S
>SINGER._
>
>January 1963, SEPIA, pg. 28 photo of Redd Foxx with a towel on his
>head--"Still using that greasy kid stuff?"
>
>January 1963, SEPIA, pg. 76, col. 1--In this column, Dan (Burley--ed.) got
>down to the nitty-gritty of the big-city Negro life...
>
>February 1963, SEPIA, pg. 56, col. 1, headline--_aretha franklin: SOUL
>SINGER_.
>
>February 1963, SEPIA, pg. 58, col. 1--Singer digs into plates of "soul food"
>when she feels energy running low.


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Nov 19 14:26:12 2000
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 09:26:12 -0500
Subject: Sepia (1960-1963); "New York Minute"
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.092612.0500.ABATEFR@EARTHLINK.NET>

Dennis P said:

Barry,

Be careful. Joe Namath was not FROM the South (although he played his
college ball at Alabama). He was from that goldmine of professional
football players known as western Pennsylvania.

dInIs
************
True.  Just to elaborate for a moment (off topic), W Pa. has been amazing in
producing top pro quarterbacks.  All from counties near and around
Pittsburgh are the following: Johnny Unitas, Joe Namath, Joe Montana, Dan
Marino, Jim Kelly.  This is remarkable, in that each of these guys had
legendary pro careers at QB.  There must be some great coaches in that
region.

Frank Abate


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov 19 14:52:49 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 09:52:49 -0500
Subject: Sepia (1960-1963); "New York Minute"
In-Reply-To: <000401c05234$acd08e60$9b01a8c0@fabate>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.095249.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Frank,

If you look at the book "This Remarkable Continent" (from Texas A&M Press),
which maps the silliest facts imaginable (including where pro football
players come from as well as US dialect boundaries), you will find it ain't
just QBs from within a stone's throw of Beaver Falls.

What's off-topic about regional distribution? Spose the pro football
isogloss turned out to be as important as the log cabin construction style
one in corresponding to speech boundaries?

dInIs

>Dennis P said:
>
>Barry,
>
>Be careful. Joe Namath was not FROM the South (although he played his
>college ball at Alabama). He was from that goldmine of professional
>football players known as western Pennsylvania.
>
>dInIs
>************
>True.  Just to elaborate for a moment (off topic), W Pa. has been amazing in
>producing top pro quarterbacks.  All from counties near and around
>Pittsburgh are the following: Johnny Unitas, Joe Namath, Joe Montana, Dan
>Marino, Jim Kelly.  This is remarkable, in that each of these guys had
>legendary pro careers at QB.  There must be some great coaches in that
>region.
>
>Frank Abate


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Nov 19 17:57:35 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:57:35 -0600
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.115735.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  I have been looking over Barry Popik's  recent ads-l information on
"chad" and FWIW have been speculating on its origin:

(1) Barry's first attestation (aside from OED2) comes from June 1960, and
the context of all his attestations is automatic data processing. (I do not
have OED2 handy;  Barry gives 1959 as its first cite of "chad.")

(2) We therefore deal with the context of "tech-speak"and the etymology
must therefore be sought in this context.

(3) With a search for a  precedent in, say, Middle English, therefore
almost certainly  unfruitful, the question is: Where in the world could
young technically oriented people have turned to for inspiration that would
result in a word whose origin is not readily transparent?

(4) The only likely answer that occurred to me is: an an acronym or partial
acronym.
But what words could plausibly form the acronym?

(5) When I  took a second look  at Barry's information, two points stood
out: (a) the specific mention of "automatic data" in the 1960 publication
"Glossary of Terms Used In Automatic Data Processing." This might (and I
emphasize "might") be reflected in the "-ad" part of "chad."
      (b) The second is the mention of a chad as a "chip" in the following
item:
>1972--IBM DATA PROCESSING GLOSSARY.  Pg. 20, col. 2:
>_chad._  The piece of material removed when forming a hole or notch in a
>storage medium such as punched tape or punched cards.  Synonymous with chip.

(6) So my tentatively advanced, speculative etymology of "chad" is
(drumroll, please):
an acronym of CHip of Automatic Data.

-----Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From sagehen at SLIC.COM  Sun Nov 19 17:53:47 2000
From: sagehen at SLIC.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:53:47 -0500
Subject: more chad chaff
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.125347.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>(6) So my tentatively advanced, speculative etymology of "chad" is
>(drumroll, please):
>an acronym of CHip of Automatic Data.

>-----Gerald Cohen


How about:
Cut Hole And Discard.

I, too, like the notion of an acronym and see that it could lead to ENDLESS
discussion of candidates, just as the election itself seems to be doing.
A. Murie


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Sun Nov 19 17:51:34 2000
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 12:51:34 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.125134.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

... if <chad> is <ch>ip + <a>utomatic <d>ata, then why in Barry's post
does one source give the Hebrew plural chadim?

-- db
___________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl                 einstein at frognet.net     tel: (740)
592-1617
          home page:  http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov 19 18:04:56 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 13:04:56 -0500
Subject: more chad chaff
In-Reply-To: <l03130303b63dc36dc3ca@[216.207.140.192]>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.130456.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Normally, I am a fan of Gerald's as regards etymological stuff, but the
claim that we are in the new (data processing) age and should not look to
Middle English for sources leaves me a little worried about words like
"airplane," "helicopter," and the like.

dInIs (who admittedly likes old wine in old bottles but will look elsewhere)

>>(6) So my tentatively advanced, speculative etymology of "chad" is
>>(drumroll, please):
>>an acronym of CHip of Automatic Data.
>
>>-----Gerald Cohen
>
>
>How about:
>Cut Hole And Discard.
>
>I, too, like the notion of an acronym and see that it could lead to ENDLESS
>discussion of candidates, just as the election itself seems to be doing.
>A. Murie


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Nov 19 18:09:37 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 13:09:37 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <3A181326.88E08559@frognet.net>; from einstein@FROGNET.NET on
 Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 12:51:34PM -0500
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.130937.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, Nov 19, 2000 at 12:51:34PM -0500, David Bergdahl wrote:
> ... if <chad> is <ch>ip + <a>utomatic <d>ata, then why in Barry's post
> does one source give the Hebrew plural chadim?

I don't think for a second that _chad_ has an acronymic etymology,
but the answer to the second quesion is surely that computer
types often use amusing unetymological plurals; there are various
words with _-im_ plurals, such as _frobnitz, frobnitzim_, and
even more with _-en_ plurals, such as _Vax, Vaxen._

I'll let Gareth go into more detail.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Nov 19 19:16:58 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:16:58 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <v03130300b63db9d03f2c@[131.151.64.140]>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.141658.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>(1) Barry's first attestation (aside from OED2) comes from June 1960, and
>the context of all his attestations is automatic data processing. (I do not
>have OED2 handy;  Barry gives 1959 as its first cite of "chad.")

Merriam-Webster gives 1947. Random House says "1945-50".

>(2) We therefore deal with the context of "tech-speak"and the etymology
>must therefore be sought in this context.

Not necessarily. "Chad" was also called "chips", also "confetti" -- these
are not tech-speak, are they?

>(3) ... Where in the world could
>young technically oriented people have turned to for inspiration that would
>result in a word whose origin is not readily transparent?

People in the 1940's [maybe not so young (maybe the youngsters were in the
front lines); maybe not so technically oriented (see below)]? Many places,
some of which we may have forgotten now. The origin from Scots "chad" =
"gravel" offered in Webster's Third (1961) seems reasonable to me. If there
was an early acronym (say mid-1940's), the MW people didn't know about it
around 1960, so I doubt one can find it easily now ... in fact, I doubt
there was one. Note also that none of the quotations re "chad" in the early
1960's seems to give an acronym (I couldn't find an early acronym in my
library browsing either).

I submitted programs on punched cards (punched by myself) as early as the
mid-1960's, and I punched paper for ring binders before that: AFAIK I never
heard the word "chad", and I never felt the need for a name for the little
paper chips or discs. Who dealt with chad in large volume? Who would need a
specific name for it? Programmers? Maybe, maybe not. Keypunch operators and
teletype operators? Probably. Janitors? Certainly. Not only techno-geeks by
any means. Some members of any of these groups may have spoken Scots.

>... _chad._  The piece of material removed when forming a hole or notch in a
> >storage medium such as punched tape or punched cards.  Synonymous with chip.

>(6) So my tentatively advanced, speculative etymology of "chad" is ... an
>acronym of CHip of Automatic Data.

Not entirely impossible. But perhaps "chips" < "CHaff from Information
Processing Systems" is just as good.

I don't favor it, but then I'm prejudiced against acronym etymologies in
general. I will admit that the chronology is consistent with a military
origin, in which case an acronym might be less unbelievable than usual.

-- Doug Wilson


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Sun Nov 19 19:35:04 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:35:04 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001119130014.00a398d0@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.143504.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I like Chip Debris from Automatic Data.

> From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:16:58 -0500
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "chad"--a possible origin
>
>> (6) So my tentatively advanced, speculative etymology of "chad" is ... an
>> acronym of CHip of Automatic Data


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov 19 20:26:16 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:26:16 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <B63D9597.4DE2%highbob@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.152616.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yeah, and I like Port Out Starboard Home, Found On the Road Dead, and For
Unlawful Carnal Knowledge too, but I like them because I like folk
linguistics.

dInIs


>I like Chip Debris from Automatic Data.
>
>> From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
>> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:16:58 -0500
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: "chad"--a possible origin
>>
>>> (6) So my tentatively advanced, speculative etymology of "chad" is ... an
>>> acronym of CHip of Automatic Data


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 19 20:57:23 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:57:23 EST
Subject: Mr. Chad
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.155723.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Not one of the books that I cited listed an acronym for "chad."
    I have not seen M-W's "chad" entry, but I trust that it's 1947.
    I still have to check the ACM COMMITTEE ON NOMENCLATURE, first glossary
of programming terminology, 257 terms (June 1954), and any newsletter of the
International Typographical Union, which complained about "cheap tape" in a
TIME article on the teletypesetter, July 23, 1953, pages 68-69.

NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE, 18 March 1946, pg. 42, col. 2:
_Mr. Clem_
_And Mr. Chad_
TO THE EDITOR:
   I HAVE followed with interest the article and correspondence in THE TIMES
MAGAZINE regarding "Clem," whose face American soldiers scrawled on walls at
European redeployment depots.  I and several school friends find him
interesting owing to his very close resemblance to Mr. Chad, a British
wall-peeper who has been seen everywhere here during the last few years.  May
I quote from The Sunday Express of London, Dec. 2, 1945?  (OED's first
cite--ed.)
   "What is the origin of that peculiarly laughable figure called Chad we see
so often scribbled across our walls? *** Of all the stories of Chad's origin
the most likely appears to be one that comes from a REME (Royal Electrical
and Mechanical Engineers) unit.
   (See article for Chad drawings--ed.)
   "Thus was Chad born--but why the name Chad?  Perhaps it comes from the
nickname of a REME training unit, popularly known as 'Chad's Temple'--perhaps
not."
   KENNETH JOHNSON
   (age 15)
Letchworth, Hertfordshire,
England.

LIFE magazine, 18 March 1946, pg. 17, col. 2:
_WOT!_
_CHAD'S HERE_
_Britain's war gremlin_
_becomes a symbol of_
_civilian problems_
by ELIZABETH REEVE
   LONDON
(Long article.  LIFE should be available everywhere--ed.)
(Pg. 18, col. 2--ed.)
   The history of Mr. Chad is blanketed in mystery.  Like Topsy and that
highly organized race of saboteurs, the RAF gremlins, it seems he just
"growed."  Army and air force hotly contend for the (Pg. 20, col. 2--ed.)
honor of having discovered him.  Both generally agree that he started to
patronize the various armed forces about two years ago, although his Cockney
tag lines were common army currency long before.
   Most probable explanation of his origin is a doodle by a bored radio or
electrical trainee in the RAF or REME (which stands for Royal Electrical
Mechanical Engineers, popularly known as "Remmay").  Certainly he has long
been the special favorite of radio operators, electrical and radio mechanics
in the British services.
   (...)(Chad drawings cannot be reproduced here--ed.)
_Chad's christening_
   More conflicting is the folklore surrounding the origin of Mr. CHad's
name.  A REME unit claims it came from their training school, nicknamed
"Chad's Temple" after the instructor.  Another legend asserts Chad was named
for an RAF club, Chadwich House, near a Lancashire air force radio school.
Eighth Army Desert Rats have claimed that Chad was named after a snoopy
officer in the El Mamem (illegible--ed.) campaign.  He has been alternatively
known as "Flywheel," (Pg. 23, col. 2--ed.)  "Doomie" or "The Goon" in the
RAF; "Foo" or "The Watcher" in the Royal Navy; "Clem," "Private Snoops," or
"The Jeep" in the army.  Lesser gremlins have tried lately to cash in on
Chad's popularity with more elaborate portraits and new catch phrases, but
Chad has a long start on his rivals, who are mostly short-lived.
   Chad is no officer's pet.  He has been called "the patron saint of dumb
insolence--that elusive army crime so satisfyingly difficult to pin down."
His dry humor is typically British and his Cockney sympathies are always with
the Sad Sacks in the lower ranks of the service. (...)

(Maybe I'll look through any REME journals, too--ed.)


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Sun Nov 19 20:53:41 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:53:41 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <l03130302b63de7a0c0ac@[35.9.49.206]>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.155341.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Exactly.

> From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 15:26:16 -0500
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "chad"--a possible origin
>
> Yeah, and I like Port Out Starboard Home, Found On the Road Dead, and For
> Unlawful Carnal Knowledge too, but I like them because I like folk
> linguistics.
>
> dInIs
>
>
>> I like Chip Debris from Automatic Data.
>>
>>> From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
>>> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:16:58 -0500
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>> Subject: Re: "chad"--a possible origin
>>>
>>>> (6) So my tentatively advanced, speculative etymology of "chad" is ... an
>>>> acronym of CHip of Automatic Data
>
>
> Dennis R. Preston
> Department of Linguistics and Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
> preston at pilot.msu.edu
> Office: (517)353-0740
> Fax: (517)432-2736


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sun Nov 19 19:58:42 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 14:58:42 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.145842.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

douglas at NB.NET,Net writes:
>The origin from Scots "chad" =
>"gravel" offered in Webster's Third (1961) seems reasonable to me.

This is true.  But, in subsequent publications they (MW) have preferred
"origin unknown."  So, too: OED-as #1 and AHD.

I'd like to know more about the MW 1947 quote.

Regards,
David Barnhart

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Nov 19 21:37:29 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:37:29 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <msg50676.thr-7182a6d1.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.163729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> >The origin from Scots "chad" =
> >"gravel" offered in Webster's Third (1961) seems reasonable to me.
>
>This is true.  But, in subsequent publications they (MW) have preferred
>"origin unknown."  So, too: OED-as #1 and AHD.
>
>I'd like to know more about the MW 1947 quote.

I think Webster's Third said "possibly" or something like that. Presumably
there is no firmly established origin, but of the hypotheses I've seen
proposed, I like this one. Robert Hendrickson presents a possibly
indistinguishable one: "chad" < "chat" = "gravel"/"mining refuse", but MW
seems more authoritative and this "chat" is a VERY obscure word (might as
well be Scots!) ....

I don't have a quote from MW. I just note that the date 1947 is given in
the MW on-line dictionary: presumably the MW editors could produce a quote.

-- Doug Wilson


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Nov 19 21:36:01 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:36:01 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <20001119130937.A25131@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.163601.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 19 Nov 2000, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> I don't think for a second that _chad_ has an acronymic etymology,
> but the answer to the second quesion is surely that computer
> types often use amusing unetymological plurals; there are various
> words with _-im_ plurals, such as _frobnitz, frobnitzim_, and
> even more with _-en_ plurals, such as _Vax, Vaxen._

I agree with Jesse that an acronymic etymology is very unlikely.  If it's
an acronym, why are none of the earliest examples (including 1947 and 1962
citations I have looked at that are not included in Barry's post)
capitalized and why do none of them refer to an acronymic derivation?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 19 22:11:49 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 17:11:49 EST
Subject: Chad & REME
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.171149.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I have e-mailed the secretary of the Royal Electrical and Mechanical
Engineers (bensec at rhqreme.demon.co.uk) and their publication CRAFTSMAN
(crftsman at rhqreme.demon.co.uk) about "Mr. Chad."  See their web site at
www.rememuseum.org.uk.
   OCLC WorldCat shows that Columbia University has FIRST GLOSSARY OF
PROGRAMMING TERMINOLOGY by Charles William Adams (ACM, 1954), and I'll go
back there only if somebody's gotta see it.  It's probably not worth the few
hours' schlep.
   The NYPL has the International Typographical Union THE BULLETIN (also, THE
TYPOGRAPHICAL JOURNAL or THE ITU JOURNAL or ITU REVIEW).  I'll check for
chads, but it'll probably be deathly boring.
   An interesting journal that came up on WorldCat under the subject
"Trade-unions--Printing industry--United States--Periodicals" is THE BUG
(Description based on No. 3 June 1940), LC Z243.U5, Allied Printing Trades
Council, Kansas City, Kansas.  (NOT Missouri!!)  Did Fred Shapiro "de-bug"
this?


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Sun Nov 19 22:17:55 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 16:17:55 CST
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.161755.CST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: "Douglas G. Wilson"

>Robert Hendrickson presents a possibly indistinguishable one: "chad" <
>"chat" = "gravel"/"mining refuse"

'Mining refuse', even 'mine tailings'. This *does* make sense, with as much
semantic logic as does an alteration of 'chaff'. And it could indeed be
British/Scots in origin. What kind of tape/punchcards were used during WWII
and immediately thereafter in the UK?

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Sun Nov 19 23:07:46 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 18:07:46 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.180746.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Was chaff also used in WWII, as either square or rectangular shapes in
foil, toward disrupting certain radio communication efforts?  Possible
relationship between the words 'chaff' and 'chad', other than the first
three letters of each word?

Not a very good photo of chaff, but a rectangular object is in the
photo:
http://www.denix.osd.mil/denix/Public/Library/Rfchaff/Images/images.html

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Nov 20 01:25:09 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:25:09 -0600
Subject: "chad" suggestion withdrawn
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.192509.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Many thanx to everyone who responded to my suggestion that "chad" might
have arisen as an acronym.  The input is much appreciated (accurate
criticism is always helpful), and I now withdraw my suggestion.

------Gerald Cohen



gcohen at umr.edu


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Mon Nov 20 03:16:49 2000
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 20:16:49 -0700
Subject: Of chads and things
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.201649.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This was too good not to pass along; though not new, at least newly
relevant. --Rudy

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 11:46:39 -0700
From: Gretchen Robinson <pismoclam at EARTHLINK.NET>
To: LINGUA at LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: FW: the topic of poetry

With all that talk of dots and chads, I had to share this:


"Waka Waka Bang Splat"

<>!*''#
^@`$$-
!*'$_
%*<>#4
&)../
|{~~SYSTEM HALTED

Transliterated:

Waka waka bang splat tick tick hash,
Caret at back-tick dollar dollar dash,
Bang splat tick dollar under-score,
Percent splat waka waka number four,
Ampersand right-paren dot dot slash,
Vertical-bar curly-bracket tilde tilde CRASH.

--Fred Bremmer and Steve Kroese (according to
http://www.web.shorty.com/lists/geeks/96/dec/msg00005.html)


From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Nov 20 03:19:25 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:19:25 -0600
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.211925.0600.>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20001119/2d4d317b/attachment.htm>

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 20 03:37:49 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 22:37:49 EST
Subject: Rap; Dis; Chad
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.223749.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RAP (continued)

   I continued reading through the NEW YORK AMSTERDAM NEWS.

14 July 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 9, col. 1--_Rapping on the voter_.  (A
story about "Voter RAP," a registration awareness program in Harlem--ed.)

6 October 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 33, col. 3--_DJ Hollywood_ who feels
he's the original wrapper will be laying the track to a disco rap in the
studio this week.  I guess he feels it's about time he cashes in on a
tradition he espoused.  "Rapper's Delight" is becoming the fastest selling
(Col. 4--ed.) record to hit record shops in a long time.

20 October 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 34, col. 1:
_"Rap" disco record sweeps country_
By MINOR ROBERTS
   Take eight bars of a song that sold four million albums, three
fast-talking disc jockeys, then mix them together and what have you got?
Probably the fastest selling record in the history of the record industry.
   Sweeping the nation by storm, "Rapper's Delight" by an unknown trio called
the Sugar Hill Gang is the wonder of the record business.  In four short
weeks, its (sic) passed the million sales mark and veteran observers wouldn't
be surprised if it sold more than nine million before it runs out of steam.
   Taking the music of "Good Times" from the Chic album and putting the
voices of three deejays over it turned out to be a winning format for the
Sugar Hill record company in NMEW (?--ed.) Jersey.  In using only eight bars
of "good Times" which is (Col. 2) repeated throught the 17-minute, 12 inch
disc, the Black-owned firm avoided violating the copyright laws.
   The latter state that anyone can use up to eight bars of another's recoded
works without fear of a suit.  Going beyond that number can mean legal
trouble.
   Written by Sylvia Robinson (Photo in Col. 3--ed.), three motor-mouthed
disc jockeys "do their vocal thing" as they rhyme in double time on subjects
that strike a responsive chord with their teenage fans.
   To top it all off, young disc fans perform a dance they call the "Rap" as
the record spins.  Done in an offtime style, it involves making up your own
steps as one flings their arms, shakes their shoulders and throws in a
lowdown wiggle of their hips.
(...)

--------------------------------------------------------
DIS, et al.

26 May 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 27, col. 1:
_About niggers, honkies and blips_
   "Honkies is a blip," said Simple.
(Col. 6--ed.)
   "That word, _blip_--you got me there.  If I knew what it meant, I've
forgotten," said the bartender.  "Blip," said Simple, "is what you say
because the word that honkies really is, is too terrible, the devil himself
is shamed to say it."

30 June 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 33, col. 1--From the first cut to the
last, you will be taken on an exciting Musical tour.  _"This Group Is
Bad"_--and I do mean BAD!
(Actually, the writer means "good"--ed.)

30 June 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 34, col. 1:
_Tony Brown digs into "crossover music"_
(Col. 3--ed.)
   "Disco's the name, but crossover's the game.  Crossover is a marketing
term used to describe music that finds acceptance--meaning sales--in its own
cultural or social segment and then finds acceptance--and sales--among
another social group, and, so to speak, crosses over."

7 July 1979, NEW YORK AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 28 headline--_Dis-service
stations_.
(Peter Noel wrote the text.  E-mail him at the Village Voice if he had meant
"dis" in 1979.  HDAS has 1982--ed.)

28 July 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 28, col. 4--As everyone "partied hearty"
at New York, New York...

29 September 1979, AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 34, cols. 3-6:
_Filmmaker documents urban jargon_
(Robert Gardner's "Clarence: An Angel--ed.)
(Col.5--ed.)
   "The Black and Hispanic kids all related to the film (Col. 6--ed.) and
just fell out laughing, because it was part of their experience.  They knew
what 'ranking' and 'snapping' on someone meant.  The white professors, just
like many film programmers, had a cultural block to the film."

29 September 1979, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 37, col. 4--_Van Jay_, another jock
on WBLS with an enticing and inviting voice, now, too, refers to Vaughn as
the man with the x-rated voice--the term I (Marie Moore--ed.) coined to
describe the air personality who upsets the women wherever he goes.

12 December 1981, NY AMSTERDAM NEWS, pg. 31, cols. 4-6 headline--_Prince
rules supreme in sex-citement_.

--------------------------------------------------------
CHAD (continued)

   The Word Detective talks about "chad" and more...There's a good "Double
Dutch" in DARE.
-------------- next part --------------
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Subject: The Word Detective, November 27 through December 8, 2000
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 20 04:09:40 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 23:09:40 EST
Subject: Tally-hassle; Condo Commandos
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.230940.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TALLY-HASSLE--I've seen this a few times this week for Tallahassee, Florida.

CONDO COMMANDOS--There have been about 20 Dow Jones cites the past month.
>From an obituary for Anne Ackerman, 75, that ran in the LOS ANGELES TIMES,
5-3-1989:

   Her political friends included President Jimmy Carter, fellow Democrats
Walter Mondale and Michael S. Dukakis, and nearly every well-known Democratic
politician in Florida.
   Ackerman successfully roused retirees out of political apathy and
mobilized them into powerful voting blocs.  Famed for turnouts ranging more
than 90%, they were dubbed "condo commandos."

(Not in OED?--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Nov 20 02:41:38 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 21:41:38 -0500
Subject: Chad & REME
In-Reply-To: <c1.8df82ae.2749aa25@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.19.NOV.2000.214138.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... The NYPL has the International Typographical Union THE BULLETIN (also, THE
>TYPOGRAPHICAL JOURNAL or THE ITU JOURNAL or ITU REVIEW).  I'll check for
>chads, but it'll probably be deathly boring.

I would suggest trying a telegraphy journal, if there is one. Or a ham
radio journal.

>    An interesting journal that came up on WorldCat under the subject
>"Trade-unions--Printing industry--United States--Periodicals" is THE BUG
>(Description based on No. 3 June 1940), LC Z243.U5, Allied Printing Trades
>Council, Kansas City, Kansas.  (NOT Missouri!!)  Did Fred Shapiro "de-bug"
>this?

I think the noun "bug" has a special sense in printing. The RHUD says: "a
label printed on certain matter to indicate that it was produced by a union
shop."

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Nov 20 10:00:18 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 05:00:18 -0500
Subject: "chad"--a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <3A18983D.6070009@missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.050018.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... the word 'chat' for the gravel that is used in resurfacing country
>roads in that area.  The chat comes from steel mills in northeast Texas
>that process locally mined iron ore. ... So, in some areas ... 'chat' as
>gravel is well known and the Scottish term not known at all.

This is what Hendrickson referred to, more or less: mining refuse used on
roads. I think in etymological speculation, an exact match generally should
be preferred: score 1 for "chad" = "gravel". But an English word should be
preferred over a Scots word: score 1 for "chat". I tend to trust MW more
than I do Hendrickson (who dates the word "chad" to the late 1960's!): 1
for "chad". But after all, I'm not sure that these two words for gravel are
really distinct!

DARE gives "chat" = "gravelly tailings from mines", and some of the
quotations indicate that "chat" is a corruption of "chert" -- but I'm not
sure this is substantiated, and "chert" itself is of mysterious origin.

The "English Dialect Dictionary" (Joseph Wright, ed.; Oxford, 1961) shows
"chad" = "gravel"/"riverbed stones" (Scotland, East Anglia) and also  =
"chaff" (in food) (Norfolk, East Anglia).

The EDD also gives "chat" = (1) "catkin" [hazel, maple], (2) "key" [ash,
sycamore], (3) "fir-cone", (5) "chip of wood", (7) "small inferior potato",
(8) "small piece of coal", (9) "piece of stone blended with lead ore" [like
the "chat" in DARE], etc. -- but notes that this word "chat" also occurs as
"chad" (Yorkshire, Derbyshire)!

All of these refer to small objects occurring in heaps ... just like
punch-card or punch-tape chad(s).

Several of the above would give credible origins for "chad" = "punched
paper chip(s)".

["Chat" refers to a bunch of other things, including lice, birds (DARE
gives "chat" and "chad" as bird names), kittens, etc., etc., and -- of
course -- like about 100,000 other words -- the female sex organ (cf.
French "chat").]

Note that "chad" is a very common word, perhaps virtually a recognition
signal, among teletype hobbyists as evidenced in -- e.g. -- the "Greenkeys"
archive at a ham radio site on the Web, with maybe 200 instances of "chad":
here's one page which includes the imaginary (?) fountain statue of a "nude
maiden pouring chads", no doubt a symbol of the brotherhood:

http://www.qth.net/archive/greenkeys/199904/19990403.html

There are also light or jocular references to inhaling chad by accident,
smoking chad like marijuana, using chad as confetti, etc. The chad here is
from punched tape.

Here is a case where someone opines that "chad" may come from the UK (not
convincing/conclusive at all, but I haven't seen any contrary geographic
speculation):

http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/mail/squeak/msg01818.html

But as we see from the EDD, the exact provenance of the word cannot be
established simply by assumption of British origin anyway.

-- Doug Wilson


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Mon Nov 20 13:49:32 2000
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:49:32 -0500
Subject: "chad"-- a possible origin
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.084932.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In case anyone is interested, the 1947 citation for "chad" in our
files reads as follows:

The sample tape shown in Figure 2 is of the form produced by the
typing reperforator.  It is known as chadless tape because the
small discs, called chads, which are perforated to form the code
combinations are not cut completely from the tape but are
perforated only sufficiently to permit the chads to rise like small
hinged lids in response to the sensing pins of a transmitter.

RCA Review
Radio Corp. of America Vol. 8 No. 3
RCA Lab. Div. Sept. 1947

This same citation also provides our earliest evidence for
"chadless."  Every other early source I've looked at defines
"chadless" in the same way, i.e., in terms of a tape-punching
method resulting in a lack of chads.  The absence of any reference
to the name "Chadless" in these cites would seem to cast doubt
on the back-formation hypothesis posited as an explanation for
"chad."  Jim Rader mentioned to me that he'd investigated this
hypothesis some time ago by checking patent records for the
name, but came up with nothing.  The "perhaps" derivation in W3
from a Scots word meaning "gravel"  appeared to him to be pure
guesswork.

Joanne Despres
Merriam-Webster


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov 20 16:50:45 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 11:50:45 -0500
Subject: "urine" with long "i"
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.115045.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This came up on a list I subscribe to. As the name of the list suggests,
most of its members, including this one, are in the UK. I had asked about
an idiom I didn't understand.

   Mark A. Mandel : Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Senior Linguist
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com

---------- Forwarded message ----------
To: FILK_UK Mailing List <filk_uk at filklore.com>

Hi Mark,

     [...]

"Taking the piss", aka "Taking the mickey/michael" or "Extracting
the urine"*, means "Making fun off, usually (but not necessarily)
with an attitude of contempt".

*(which, in that context, is always pronounced "Yur-eye-n", even
if you normally prefer "Yur-inn" - Dunno why, just is)


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Mon Nov 20 18:16:06 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:16:06 -0500
Subject: JS/Kak@m.Worm virus removal/prevention...
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.131606.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GSCole <gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU> writes:

>>>>>
With regard to the JS/Kak virus that was attached to a message sent to
the list, a patch is available from Microsoft, to PREVENT infection.
Information at:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/security/virus/kakworm.asp

     [...]

Not meaning to waste bandwidth, with this non-dialect message, but
thought that the information might be of help to a reader or two.  If
the sending of virus encrusted messages can be avoided, so much the
better.
<<<<<

Yet another reason, dear colleagues, not to post Word files, bitmaps, or
any other kind of gibberish, but stick to ASCII text.

-- Mark A. Mandel
(Sigh. </rant>)


From jessie at SIRSI.COM  Mon Nov 20 19:23:50 2000
From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 13:23:50 -0600
Subject: Mary Sue, Murray Sue, Marty Sue
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.132350.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know for a fact where the term "Mary Sue" came from?  Is it
indeed an outgrowth of Star Trek fan fiction?  When did "Murray Sue" and
"Marty Sue" enter the picture?

Here is some background:

"The answer is 'Mary-Sue-ism.' The term comes, I believe, from early Star
Trek fiction. To quote Melissa Wilson who wrote the excellent 'Mary Sue
Litmus Test' ( http://missy.reimer.com/library/marysue.html )and 'Dr.
Merlin's Guide to Fan Fiction':

"You already know Mary Sue. Mary Sue is the perky, bright, helpful
sixteen-year-old ensign who beams about the ship. Everyone on the ship likes
Mary Sue, because Mary Sue is good at everything. Mary Sue is an engineer, a
doctor in training, a good leader, an excellent cook, and is usually a
beautiful singer. Mary Sue often has mental powers that may manifest
themselves as telepathy, precognition, or magic. If Mary Sue is very young,
she is often the offspring of one or two already established characters. If
she's a little older, she will probably end up sleeping with the author's
favorite character. Her name is often the author's name, be it a net.name, a
favored nickname, or the author's middle name (this is seen in the most
famous Mary Sue of all time, Wesley Crusher, who was named after Trek
creator Eugene Wesley Roddenbery). By the end of the story, Mary Sue will be
in bed with the desired character, will have beamed away amid cheers from
all the regulars, or will be dead, usually accompanied by heavy mourning
from the cast. The reader, on the other hand, will be celebrating."

And some other links are found here:

http://www.subreality.com/marysue/lins.htm#LITMUS

Thanks,
Jessie Emerson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 20 19:39:58 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 14:39:58 EST
Subject: Telco Hotels (continued)
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.143958.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TELCO HOTELS

   Today's DAILY NEWS (NY), 20 November 2000, pages 32-33, "Buildings give
info equipment a home," has on pg. 32, col. 4:

   Welcome to a building of the future--the Telco Hotel.

   It used to be "telecom hotel."  Could these things ever be motels?

--------------------------------------------------------
CHAD

   The WASHINGTON POST of November 16th cites Evan Morris on "chad" and
mentions that people in the American Dialect Society have already mentioned
this for Word-of-the-Year.


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Nov 20 21:16:56 2000
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 16:16:56 -0500
Subject: Telco Hotels (continued)
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.161656.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A NY Times story dated Sept 6, 2000 also had "telco hotel".  I don't have a
quote or page, but I imagine it can be dug out via a search of their site.

Frank Abate

Dictionary & Reference Specialists (DRS)
Consulting & Lexicographic Services
(860) 510-0100, ext 2311
abatefr at earthlink.net


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Nov 20 22:24:45 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:24:45 -0500
Subject: "urine" with long "i"
In-Reply-To: <OFBA9A9F37.55D20CFD-ON8525699D.005C16BE@dragonsys.com>
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.172445.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"Taking the piss", aka "Taking the mickey/michael" or "Extracting
>the urine"*, means "Making fun off, usually (but not necessarily)
>with an attitude of contempt".
>
>*(which, in that context, is always pronounced "Yur-eye-n", even
>if you normally prefer "Yur-inn" - Dunno why, just is)

I refer to Cassell's slang dictionary.

"Mickey"/"Michael" apparently is rhyming slang ("Mickey Bliss") for "piss".

"Extracting the Michael/urine" is apparently a consciously prissy/genteel
elaboration/euphemism for "taking the piss [out of someone]". I think the
odd pronunciation of "urine" is explained by this interpretation, the user
lacking (or pretending to lack) "urine" in his usual speaking vocabulary.

What is the original sense of "taking the piss [out of ...]" = "tease"? Is
it parallel to "beating the piss out of someone"? Or to "taking the starch
out of someone"? Or does it actually refer to urethral catheterization
(which may have been more familiar to the 'common man' in the days before
successful antibiotic treatment of venereal diseases)?

Is there any connection with "pulling someone's
leg/tit/tail/chain/cock/pisser" = "teasing someone"?

-- Doug Wilson


From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Mon Nov 20 22:45:51 2000
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:45:51 -0500
Subject: Chads from the Past
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.174551.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A posting on The Well (the venerable net conferencing system) today
mentions an article in today's (11/20) Contra Costa Times (evidently taken
from the Orlando Sentinel) entitled "Chads who came before." Included was
Chad Brock (WCW wrestler),Chad Mitchell Trio (folk band from the '60s) and
a chain saw juggler named Mad Chad Taylor.

Also mentioned was a band called Chad Hollerith and The Perforations, two
members of which were Billy and Bobby Keepunch (!). They released one album
in 1956 according to the story.



--
Evan Morris
words1 at word-detective.com
http://www.word-detective.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 02:06:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:06:15 EST
Subject: "OK" sign in American Restaurant Magazine
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.210615.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"OK" SIGN (continued)

   I've read AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE up until the end of the 1930s (boy,
was it dull), then read 1948-1961.  I recently requested 1945-1947 from the
annex.  The successor magazine, FOOD & LODGING HOSPITALITY, was requested
from the annex for the years 1962-1967, but seems to be missing entirely.

January 1948, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 2.  Ad for "le guot" food
line from Fearn Laboratories shows that the chef "OK" on their food labels
existed at this time.

January 1948, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 5.  Ad for S. Blickman, Inc.,
line of food service equipment shows two diners giving the "OK" sign.

May 1949, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 63.  Ad for Ac'cent food enhancer
shows a chef giving the "OK" sign.  "Ac'cent is 99+% pure MSG...mono sodium
glutamate, in crystal form, made from the amino acid, glutamic acid, which
occurs naturally in all vegetable and animal protein."

November 1950, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 60.  Ad for Norbest Turkey
Growers' Assn. shows a chef giving the "OK" sign.

December 1950, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 78, col. 1.  An ad for
Louisiana Golden Yams shows a chef giving the "OK" sign.

November 1951, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 110, col. 3.  An ad for
American Restaurant Magazine's books on Menu & Sandwich Magic shows a chef
giving the "OK" sign.

February 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 103, col. 1.  An ad for 3V
Papaya Meat Tenderizer shows a chef giving the "OK" sign.

March 1953, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 76, col. 1.  An ad for Tabasco
sauce shows a chef giving the "OK" sign.

September 1953, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 120.  Another Ac'cent ad
shows a chef giving the "OK" sign in two panels.

--------------------------------------------------------
COFFEE BREAK (continued)

April 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pages 82-83.  "This is a
coffee-break!"  The ad by the Pan-American Coffee Bureau states: "What is the
Coffee-Break?  It's the theme of the Pan-American Coffee Bureau's most
ambitious promotion in history."  Ads were placed in LIFE, SATURDAY EVENING
POST, LADIES' HOME JOURNAL, WOMAN'S HOME COMPANION, McCALL'S, GOOD
HOUSEKEEPING, Sunday newspaper supplements, and on 119 radio stations.

November 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 118.  The Pan-American
Coffee Bureau's ad states: "In offices and factories--the 'coffee-break'
means new business!"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 02:30:28 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 21:30:28 EST
Subject: Submarines, curly fries & more
Message-ID: <MON.20.NOV.2000.213028.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Some items from AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE.

--------------------------------------------------------
SUBMARINE

   OED has 1955 for the submarine sandwich.  DARE promises a map for
"submarine" when that volume is published.

September 1951, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 44, col. 1.  A story about
Jordan's, 1356 W. North Avenue, Baltimore, Maryland.  A print ad reads:
"...submarine sandwiches or what-have-you."  Another Jordan's print ad on pg.
45, col. 1:  "Submarine Sandwich (a meal on a roll)...50."

--------------------------------------------------------
CURLY FRIES

October 1951, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 156, col. 1.  An ad for
Stringmaster Potato Cutter, 656 N. Cahuenga Blvd., Los Angeles, Calif.  The
Stringmaster is shown "making several quick, delicious servings of golden
brown Crispy Q's."

October 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 124, col. 1.  Another ad for
the Stringmaster Potato Cutter:  "bring on those 'Curly' FRENCH FRIES!"

--------------------------------------------------------
DOGGIE BAG (continued)

   From AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, September 1952, pg. 164, col. 2:

IT'S A PLEASURE
to hand this beautiful
_DOGGIE PAK_
to your patrons
TO TAKE HOME BONES FOR THEIR DOG
Sturdy, holds large steak bones.  Printed in three colors.  You must see
this, it's the kind of advertising they will talk about.  It's class.
YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS ON EVERY PAK
_DOGGIE PAK CO._ 600 South Michigan Blvd., Chicago 5, Ill.

--------------------------------------------------------
SOUP'S ON

February 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 50.  "Soup's On" is the
title of an article about soup.

November 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 67.  An ad for SOUP'S ON, a
soup line by Universal Foods Corp., 3003 W. Carroll Ave., Chicago 12,
Illinois.

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

September 1951, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 124, col. 2.  Three recipes
for "TOASTWICHES."

September 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 139, col. 1.  Cartoon of a
chef speaking to a customer at his Maw's Grill.  "You finish your vegetables
young man, or you don't get any dessert."

September 1952, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pages 44-45.  The article is
titled "$howman$hip $ell$."  See Marvin Kitman's recent review in NY NEWSDAY
of a new tv show about Wall Street called "The $treet."  It think he said
that it "$tink$."


From Amcolph at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 13:41:38 2000
From: Amcolph at AOL.COM (Ray Ott)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 08:41:38 EST
Subject: Chads from the Past
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.084138.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's a clue!  What was the original Hollerith's first name?

Ray Ott


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Nov 21 14:10:38 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 09:10:38 -0500
Subject: Chads from the Past
In-Reply-To: <86.32ff322.274bd592@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.091038.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>There's a clue!  What was the original Hollerith's first name?

Herman.

Did he have children? I.e., any chips off the old card?

-- Doug Wilson


From Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM  Tue Nov 21 15:25:42 2000
From: Joe_Pickett at HMCO.COM (Joe Pickett)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 10:25:42 -0500
Subject: important new title
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.102542.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In case you missed Allan Metcalf's modest reference to his new book that he
included in an earlier message, I post this announcement of his book.

I have seen repeated inquiries on this listserve for a book of this nature,
so it seems to address a real need among members  teaching classes on
American English.

Joe Pickett



If you are looking for an inexpensive book on American Regional English
that contains the latest scholarship but is written for a popular audience,
look no further.

Announcing


               How We Talk: American Regional English Today

                             by Allan Metcalf
                (Professor of English at MacMurray College
         and Executive Secretary of the American Dialect Society)

(Houghton Mifflin Company, 2000)
208 pages
cloth ISBN 0-618-04363-2   $24.00
paperback ISBN 0-618-04362-4   $14.00


Allan Metcalf takes us on a tour of American English, beginning in the
South, home of the most easily recognized of American dialects, and
traveling north to New England, west to the Midwest, and on to the far
West, including Alaska and Hawaii. Along the way the author examines such
phenomena as Louisiana Cajun and New Orleans Yat, Appalachian
pronunciations and vocabulary, New York talk, "dahntahn" Pittsburgh,
"Bawlmerese," the Northern Cities Shift, the Northern Midwest "Fargo"
accent, California Surfer Slang, and much much more.

How We Talk also has a historical introduction, a chapter on ethnic
dialects, and a chapter on dialects in the movies.

How We Talk is a sustained celebration of the language Americans all know
and don't understand. Written in a witty and engaging style, the book is
ideally suited for students with little or no linguistic training.

Even the proofreader said it was hard to put down.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 16:21:06 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:21:06 EST
Subject: "might have done"
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.112106.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/27/2000 12:24:25 PM, gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM writes:

<< An interesting column from the Guardian regarding reader complaints about
usage.

"Readers who believe that the Guardian should be written in decent English
pursue their cause relentlessly... Readers who have this condition in its
advanced stages not only notice the particular thing that annoys them
whenever it occurs. They notice it, with a little leap of delight, when it
does not occur but might have done."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,385712,00.html

I should also say that, as usual, the "might have done" cries out to me as
odd. I would either end the sentence at "have" or add suffix a "so." >>

I published an article or two on this British neologism a number of years
ago. It seems to have come into popularity in "cultivated" circles in
southern England between the two world wars. Before that, it was decidely
declasse--rural and working-class in the 19th century. An interesting bit of
data is that E. Waugh in his novel BRIDESHEAD REVISITED did not use the
construction; however, when the book was made into a television series, the
screenwriters changed at least one of the might have's to a might have done!

Some Americans seem to have borrowed the neologism, but not many.

See:

"Syntactic Change in British English 'Propredicates,' " Journal of English
Linguistics 16 (1983), 1-7.

"American Instances of Propredicate do," Journal of English Linguistics 20.2
(1987), 212-16. [with Kazuo Kato, first author]


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 16:54:44 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:54:44 EST
Subject: Mary Sue, Murray Sue, Marty Sue
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.115444.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/20/2000 2:25:07 PM, jessie at SIRSI.COM writes:

<< Her name is often the author's name, be it a net.name, a

favored nickname, or the author's middle name (this is seen in the most

famous Mary Sue of all time, Wesley Crusher, who was named after Trek

creator Eugene Wesley Roddenbery). By the end of the story, Mary Sue will be

in bed with the desired character, will have beamed away amid cheers from

all the regulars, or will be dead, usually accompanied by heavy mourning

from the cast. >>

Please tell me the episode in which Wesley Crusher ends up in bed with Capt.
Picard! Was this before or after the boy left for the Academy?


From mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU  Tue Nov 21 17:05:55 2000
From: mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:05:55 -0500
Subject: "might have done"
In-Reply-To: <c4.c00b02b.274bfaf2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.120555.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> I published an article or two on this British neologism a number of years
> ago. It seems to have come into popularity in "cultivated" circles in
> southern England between the two world wars. Before that, it was decidely
> declasse--rural and working-class in the 19th century. An interesting bit of

Interesting. This really adds to my appreciation of the episode of the
britcom "Are You Being Served" in which Mr. Lucas tells the story of how
he got caught in a young woman's apartment and tried to pass for a TV
repairman (i.e. a legitimate visitor) by picking up the TV and starting to
leave the apartment with it. "Did you get away with it?" Mr. Humphries
asks, intrigued. "I might have done, if I'd had me pants on," Lucas
explains. Maybe "might have done" here is intended as humorous
hypercorrection.

-Mai
_____________________________________________
Mai Kuha                  mkuha at bsuvc.bsu.edu
Department of English     (765) 285-8410
Ball State University


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Tue Nov 21 17:31:39 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:31:39 +0000
Subject: "might have done"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.PMDF.3.96.1001121115915.554109677D-100000@BSUVC.bsu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.173139.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>>  I published an article or two on this British neologism a number of years
>>  ago. It seems to have come into popularity in "cultivated" circles in
>>  southern England between the two world wars. Before that, it was decidely
>>  declasse--rural and working-class in the 19th century. An interesting bit of

Mai Kuha says:

>Interesting. This really adds to my appreciation of the episode of the
>britcom "Are You Being Served" in which Mr. Lucas tells the story of how
>he got caught in a young woman's apartment and tried to pass for a TV
>repairman (i.e. a legitimate visitor) by picking up the TV and starting to
>leave the apartment with it. "Did you get away with it?" Mr. Humphries
>asks, intrigued. "I might have done, if I'd had me pants on," Lucas
>explains. Maybe "might have done" here is intended as humorous
hypercorrection.

I doubt the writers intended it to be perceived as hypercorrection.
These days, everyone says "might have done" (or "could have done" or
whatever).  (It could equally have been his working-class roots
showing through.)

Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 17:31:52 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:31:52 EST
Subject: "chad"-- a possible origin
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.123152.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

gee, I always thought that a CHAD was just a little SHARD of paper with the
vowel+R pronounced in the New York way


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 17:39:35 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:39:35 EST
Subject: "might have done"
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.123935.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/21/2000 12:10:11 PM, mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU writes:

<< Interesting. This really adds to my appreciation of the episode of the
britcom "Are You Being Served" in which Mr. Lucas tells the story of how
he got caught in a young woman's apartment and tried to pass for a TV
repairman (i.e. a legitimate visitor) by picking up the TV and starting to
leave the apartment with it. "Did you get away with it?" Mr. Humphries
asks, intrigued. "I might have done, if I'd had me pants on," Lucas
explains. Maybe "might have done" here is intended as humorous
hypercorrection. >>

I wouldn't see it as hypercorrection at all--I doubt that the script writers
even knew that "might have done" was anything but the normal way of saying
it. Which it is for Brits under the age of 120.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov 21 05:28:48 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:28:48 +0800
Subject: "chad"-- a possible origin
In-Reply-To: <c1.8ef3bb8.274c0b88@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.132848.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>gee, I always thought that a CHAD was just a little SHARD of paper with the
>vowel+R pronounced in the New York way

Boston would be a bit closer...


From mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU  Tue Nov 21 18:59:23 2000
From: mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU (Mai Kuha)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 13:59:23 -0500
Subject: "might have done"
In-Reply-To: <16.536c3bc.274c0d57@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.135923.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> In a message dated 11/21/2000 12:10:11 PM, mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU writes:
>
> << Interesting. This really adds to my appreciation of the episode of the
> britcom "Are You Being Served" ...
> ..."I might have done, if I'd had me pants on," Lucas
> explains. Maybe "might have done" here is intended as humorous
> hypercorrection. >>

On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
> I wouldn't see it as hypercorrection at all--I doubt that the script writers
> even knew that "might have done" was anything but the normal way of saying
> it. Which it is for Brits under the age of 120.

Oh, OK. I thought in your earlier message you meant that it still was a
sign of "cultivated" speech.
mk
_____________________________________________
Mai Kuha                  mkuha at bsuvc.bsu.edu
Department of English     (765) 285-8410
Ball State University


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 19:10:53 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:10:53 EST
Subject: "might have done"
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.141053.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/21/2000 2:03:12 PM, mkuha at BSUVC.BSU.EDU writes:

<< > I wouldn't see it as hypercorrection at all--I doubt that the script
writers
> even knew that "might have done" was anything but the normal way of saying
> it. Which it is for Brits under the age of 120.

Oh, OK. I thought in your earlier message you meant that it still was a
sign of "cultivated" speech.
mk >>

I guess that I'm assuming that all of the characters on AYBS are speakers of
"cultivated" English, broadly speaking--i.e., they are not blue-collar nor
are they rural. But in fact I suspect that "might have done" is the normal
form for pretty much everyone in London today. What I meant was that, prior
to World War I, "might have done" was the accepted form among "cultivated"
speakers but maybe not among rurals and blue-collars. In other words, "might
have done" spread into the urban middle classes and above from outside.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 21 19:16:20 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:16:20 EST
Subject: CHAD,SHARD&CHARRED in NYC speech?
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.141620.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/21/2000 1:27:40 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

<< >gee, I always thought that a CHAD was just a little SHARD of paper with
the
>vowel+R pronounced in the New York way

Boston would be a bit closer... >>

True, though in 1947 NYC was even more of an r-dropping region than it is
now. But wouldn't SHARD even today bew pronounced (variably) as r-less and
with a fronted and raised vowel in working-class white neighborhoods in NYC?
So that CHARRED and SHARD would be virtually the same, and the same as CHAD
except for the absence of the initial brief [t] in SHARD?


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov 21 06:45:49 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:45:49 +0800
Subject: CHAD,SHARD&CHARRED in NYC speech?
In-Reply-To: <5a.d4a2ea3.274c2404@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.144549.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In a message dated 11/21/2000 1:27:40 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
><< >gee, I always thought that a CHAD was just a little SHARD of paper with
>the
>>vowel+R pronounced in the New York way
>
>Boston would be a bit closer... >>
>
>True, though in 1947 NYC was even more of an r-dropping region than it is
>now. But wouldn't SHARD even today bew pronounced (variably) as r-less and
>with a fronted and raised vowel in working-class white neighborhoods in NYC?
>So that CHARRED and SHARD would be virtually the same, and the same as CHAD
>except for the absence of the initial brief [t] in SHARD?

Actually, I was alluding not to the degree of non-rhoticity, but to
its consequences.  The vowel of "shard" or "chard" or "card" in New
York is nowhere near that of "chad", regardless of whether the
pronunciation is or isn't rhotic.  The non-rhotic version of "chard"
is essentially [chA:d], where A is the script a, relatively back; it
more or less rhymes with "odd" or "cod", but the vowel is a bit
longer.  The non-rhotic version of one Bostonian pronunciation of
"chard" would be much closer to "chad", with a slightly elongated
diagraph.

Larry


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Nov 21 20:58:51 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 14:58:51 -0600
Subject: CHAD,SHARD&CHARRED in NYC speech?
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.145851.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've been thinking about this one too. A search of the MIT Library might be
in order. 'Shard' is a reasonably exact description of a punchcard chad.

I also wonder what happens to the /d sh/ combination in 'card shard' when
said rapidly in a non-rhotic accent.

>Actually, I was alluding not to the degree of non-rhoticity, but to
>its consequences.  The vowel of "shard" or "chard" or "card" in New
>York is nowhere near that of "chad", regardless of whether the
>pronunciation is or isn't rhotic.  The non-rhotic version of "chard"
>is essentially [chA:d], where A is the script a, relatively back; it
>more or less rhymes with "odd" or "cod", but the vowel is a bit
>longer.  The non-rhotic version of one Bostonian pronunciation of
>"chard" would be much closer to "chad", with a slightly elongated
>diagraph.
>
>Larry

_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Nov 21 22:04:04 2000
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:04:04 -0500
Subject: Chad Research
In-Reply-To: <F148xvq7t2JIsNZfccW00000ff2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.170404.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For those of you who are eagerly awaiting more findings in the Great Chad
Quest, I have checked the original source of the 1947 Merriam-Webster
citation.  The context does not, alas, shed any further light on the
etymological question.  The one thing I glean from examining the original
article in the RCA Review is that the milieu of this earliest known usage
is not computers, but rather radiotelegraphy.  (The second oldest source,
the 1959 cite in the OED Addition Series, is also from a telegraphy
source.)

I also looked for other articles mentioning "chad" in the RCA Review and
other engineering journals from the late 1940s, but found nothing.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Public Services     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  and Lecturer in Legal Research            Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 22 00:36:33 2000
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 19:36:33 EST
Subject: All that jazz
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.193633.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For the latest definitive word on the origins of the ADS Word of the Century,
get your copy of the November-December 2000 issue of Gerald Cohen's _Comments
on Etymology_. Seventy-two pages of citations and commentary on the early
days of jazz! by Cohen and our indefatigable Barry Popik.

The only way you can get this indispensable publication is to apply to the
editor & publisher: Gerald Cohen, Dept of Applied Arts and Cultural Studies,
U of Missouri-Rolla, Rolla Missouri 65401. Individuals may subscribe for $14
a year, institutions for $18. I don't know about single copies, but anyone
concerned about word origins will want to subscribe. - Allan Metcalf


From Davidhwaet at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 22 04:49:22 2000
From: Davidhwaet at AOL.COM (Davidhwaet at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:49:22 EST
Subject: CHAD,SHARD&CHARRED in NYC speech?
Message-ID: <TUE.21.NOV.2000.234922.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Boston  "charred"  among common speakers (non-Brahmin)  is somewhat close
to "chad"  to those speakers unfamiliar with Boston speech. The vowel of
"charred" is the lower low front [a] , almost identical to the monophthonged
Southern [aI] which Natalie Maynor has provided for us on her website.  The
digraph [ae] of "chad" is clearly distinct from the [a] of non-rhotic
"charred".  The vowel we don't have in Boston speech is the script <a> or the
low central unrounded vowel.

Dave

David R. Carlson
Amherst MA  (Formerly from Norwood MA, 14 miles South and a little West of
Fenway Park)


From jessie at SIRSI.COM  Wed Nov 22 21:58:46 2000
From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 15:58:46 -0600
Subject: mong, Dreamcast
Message-ID: <WED.22.NOV.2000.155846.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

About British slang, but still an interesting bit from a CNN article:
---
The best thing about these stories might be that they're so palpably
happening now: They get the slang, the profanity, the brands, the computers
and the TV just right. (The delightful Briticism "mong," as in "to mong out
in front of the TV," occurs more than once.) Much of the action of Tony
White's "Poet" occurs within the confines of an Excel document, and Matthew
Branton's "Monkey See" gets some zing from its intimate familiarity with the
mechanics of downloading digital porn. Scarlett Thomas' "Mind Control" may
contain the first literary use of the word "Dreamcast" in history. If your
Dreamcast is as important to you as mine is to me, that's a landmark right
there.
---
The whole thing can be read here:

http://www.cnn.com/2000/books/news/11/22/salon.manifesto/index.html

Jessie Emerson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 22 22:35:38 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:35:38 EST
Subject: Smell Test
Message-ID: <WED.22.NOV.2000.173538.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Mike Barnicle (lately of the NY Daily News, formerly of the Boston Globe)
said that certain stuff in Florida had to pass the "smell test."  (That is,
does it stink?)  A few commentators picked up on "smell test."  I don't know
what smell tests Fred Shapiro has.
   May all your Thanksgiving smell tests be happy ones!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 22 22:56:12 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 17:56:12 EST
Subject: Petabits; V-commerce; Smart Tires
Message-ID: <WED.22.NOV.2000.175612.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 22 November 2000, pg. A19, col. 5:

_Montreal Start-Up Plans_
_For a World of "Petabits"_
(...)
   Hyperchip is betting its future on its conviction that the world will need
an Internet network router measuring its capacity in petabits.  A petabit is
1,000 trillion bits of data per second, 1,000 times faster than a mere
terabit.
(...)
_E-commerce will become "v-commerce," in which shoppers use video to browse
through items._

(Video commerce...This "petabit" thing sound like it really gets the fur
flying--ed.)

   From the WALL STREET JOURNAL, 22 November 2000, pg. B1, col. 2:

_Firestone Recall Fuels Interest in "Smart" Tires_
_Wheels That Self-Inflate, Run While Flat Are Getting Boost; One Might Even
Call Driver_


From nyinstitute at VIABCP.COM  Thu Nov 23 02:03:25 2000
From: nyinstitute at VIABCP.COM (nyinstitute)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:03:25 -0500
Subject: Smell Test
Message-ID: <WED.22.NOV.2000.210325.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

for at least twenty years that I know of, both accountants and lawyers used
a smell test in regard to tax shelters and other types of maneuvers.
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2000 5:35 PM
Subject: Smell Test


>    Mike Barnicle (lately of the NY Daily News, formerly of the Boston
Globe)
> said that certain stuff in Florida had to pass the "smell test."  (That
is,
> does it stink?)  A few commentators picked up on "smell test."  I don't
know
> what smell tests Fred Shapiro has.
>    May all your Thanksgiving smell tests be happy ones!
>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 23 01:53:16 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:53:16 EST
Subject: Past-Subjunctive WAS in counter-to-fact IF clauses
Message-ID: <WED.22.NOV.2000.205316.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It has been a long time since this thread died, but I am only just reading my
e-mail from late October, and I'm wondering if there isn't another way
looking at this.

Isn't it the case that, in counter-to-fact if-clauses, the prescriptive rule
allows the subjunctive BE?  An alternative second HAD BEEN might also be
grammatically acceptable, but its repetitiousness is something to avoid if
possible.

Then, assuming that BE is correct, WAS, the past subjunctive of BE, is also
preferable to WERE.

In other words, the Brits got it right.
--------------------------------------------
Rudy <rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU> wrote, concerning the sentence

       "The roof of one carriage had been peeled off as if it was a
sardine can."

<<My colleague was shocked by the inappropriate use of the past "was"
instead of the proper irrealis sequence-of-tense past perfect "had been".
What's British English coming to?>>


In a message dated 10/28/2000 6:46:52 PM, highbob at MINDSPRING.COM answered:

<< I caught that last one, too, Rudy.  But couldn't one also have used the
subjunctive "were"?  I think that's what I would have done, had I been in a
situation with sufficient time to proof, or if I weren't in a rush.  In
conversation, I'd uh probably said the exact same thing.

bob
 >>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 23 15:55:50 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:55:50 EST
Subject: Revival: someone/somebody
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.105550.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 10/29/2000 11:20:34 PM, joh.wood at ASU.EDU writes:

<< Quirk et al. (1985) and Jespersen

(1914) claim -body and -one compounds are identical in meaning although

Bolinger (1976) "argues that there is a subtle difference in meaning between

the series, ONE and its compounds being marked for closeness to the speaker

and individualization, whereas BODY is unmarked in these senses." >>

This makes sense to me, and here is a bit of evidence. There is an old song
with the key line

Somebody loves me--I wonder who?

The irony of the second part of the sentence is based upon the disambiguation
of SOMEBODY in approximately the sense that Bologna suggests, i.e., SOMEBODY
can either be a "real" person that the speaker has in mind ('close') or a
hypothetical person that the speaker has faith exists (not 'close'). The
other version of the line

?Someone loves me--I wonder who?

doesn't work, and the problem is not merely metrical: SOMEONE implies that
the speaker has in mind a real person, and the second half of the line
contradicts this, making the utterance not merely ironic but semantically
anomalous.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Nov 23 15:33:44 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 10:33:44 -0500
Subject: Revival: someone/somebody
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.103344.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RonButters at AOL.COM,Net writes:
><< Quirk et al. (1985) and Jespersen
>(1914) claim -body and -one compounds are identical in meaning although
>Bolinger (1976) "argues that there is a subtle difference in meaning
>between
>the series, ONE and its compounds being marked for closeness to the
>speaker
>and individualization, whereas BODY is unmarked in these senses." >>

Very interesting, Ron.  The dictionaries (W3, RU2, WBD, and OED) all
show general equivalency.  It might be instructive to look over the
examples in OED to test this "new" observation.

Regards,
David Barnhart

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Nov 23 17:58:02 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 17:58:02 +0000
Subject: Florida fatigue
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.175802.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Multiple use of 'Florida(-)fatigue' at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/monitoring/media_reports/newsid_1037000/1037327.stm

Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Thu Nov 23 18:56:36 2000
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 13:56:36 -0500
Subject: chad cartoons
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.135636.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

-- http://cagle.slate.msn.com/2000/chad/
___________________________________________________________
David Bergdahl                 einstein at frognet.net     tel: (740)
592-1617
          home page:  http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Nov 23 19:14:44 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 14:14:44 -0500
Subject: Revival: someone/somebody
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.141444.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ron, has the subject of anyone~anybody been addressed.  I wonder if no
one and nobody exhibit the same interpretation.

Regards,
David Barnhart

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 23 21:40:42 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:40:42 EST
Subject: Random gobblets
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.164042.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Happy Thanksgiving.  What's left of the family is here, there's turkey,
wine, I'm sharing financial statements with my sister, outlining my December
vacation, and, of course, there's a computer here.  Thanksgiving just
wouldn't be Thanksgiving without the Internet.
   Some stuff I haven't posted:

AUTHOR!  AUTHOR!--The first cite I have is THE WRITER, January 1934, pg. 1,
"Author!  Author!" by Joseph Tuckerman Day.

CHICKEN KIEV--Another early Chicago citation is THE PALMER HOUSE COOK BOOK
(1940), by Ernest E. Amiet, John Willy, Inc. for the Hotel Monthly Press,
"Chicken a la Kiev," pg. 1028.

CABARET--From the RESTAURATEUR & AMERICAN HOTELIER, 25 January 1930,
"Churchill, Famous Restaurateur, Is Dead," pg. 19, col. 1:  "In his
restaurants was originated the cabaret, and Captain Churchill paid as high as
$3,000 a week to his entertainers.

WINDY CITY/CITY OF THE WINDS--From AT HOME IN ITALY (1884), by Mrs. E. D. R.
Bianciardi, Houghton, Mifflin & Co., pg. 122:  "It is called 'The City of the
Winds'..."  (Siena, Italy--ed.)


From info at PAZYCOOPERACION.ORG  Thu Nov 23 21:56:38 2000
From: info at PAZYCOOPERACION.ORG (Paz y Cooperacion)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 16:56:38 -0500
Subject: Nos Estamos Renovando
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.165638.0500.>

***** This is an HTML Message ! *****

-------------- next part --------------
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URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20001123/a95401e1/attachment.htm>

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 23 23:41:18 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 18:41:18 EST
Subject: Prince Albert & King George
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.184118.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Today's New York Post has used "Prince Albert" for Al Gore and "King
George" for George Bush.  "Florida Fiasco" has been used a lot.  "Gore Loser"
and "Gore-Loserman" have been on the signs for Bush supporters.

FAME JUNKIES--"'Fame junkie' stars have psych woes, shrink says" is in
today's NEW YORK POST, 23 November 2000, pg. 14, cols. 2-4.  It's about
celebrities who sell wedding photos and stuff to constantly be in the
magazines and newspapers.  "Fame junkie" has been used for people who are
_not_ stars.

STOVE-PIPE ORGANIZATION--Today's Word-Spy WOTD.  I haven't checked on JSTOR,
but I remember this from the 1970s.  I think it was coined by Peter Drucker.


From Amcolph at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 24 04:01:05 2000
From: Amcolph at AOL.COM (Ray Ott)
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 23:01:05 EST
Subject: Prince Albert & King George
Message-ID: <THU.23.NOV.2000.230105.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Al Gore has been known by some as "Prince Albert" since he was in the
Senate--being the son of a senator and somewhat stodgy.

Ray Ott


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Fri Nov 24 10:51:24 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:51:24 +0100
Subject: Numbers
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.115124.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

Numbers from 1 to 10 in more than 4500 languages.

http://www.zompist.com/numbers.shtml


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Nov 24 11:02:34 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:02:34 +0000
Subject: Fwd: Re: our appointment
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.110234.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think someone on this list recently mentioned the countability of
'e-mail' (in the discussion of the countability of 'chad').  I just
got the following message from a (British) student, and the use of
'e-mails' struck me as something I would never do--but I think my Dad
might do it as well.  (Although Dad usually says "I'll see if I've
gotten any faxes"  And I say "You mean 'e-mail'."  And he says
"Right.")

>Hello Lynne
>
>I've just checked my e-mails, I'll be over at 11:30 if that's okay with
>you.


Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Fri Nov 24 11:46:26 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:46:26 +0000
Subject: Revival: someone/somebody
In-Reply-To: <16.54f0e51.274e9806@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.114626.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks very much to Ron for remembering my query about
somebody/someone, etc.  This info is super-helpful.  I'd had a
suspicion that Bolinger would have tackled this.

Ron said:
>
>The irony of the second part of the sentence is based upon the disambiguation
>of SOMEBODY in approximately the sense that Bologna suggests, i.e., SOMEBODY
>can either be a "real" person that the speaker has in mind ('close') or a
>hypothetical person that the speaker has faith exists (not 'close'). The
>other version of the line

My question:  Does everyone call him Bologna? (or does everybody?)
Never heard that one before...

Lynne
--
M. Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 3AN    UK
phone:  +44(0)1273-678844
fax:    +44(0)1273-671320


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 24 15:28:02 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:28:02 EST
Subject: spell-checker mischief
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.102802.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/24/2000 6:46:57 AM, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes:

<< I'd had a
suspicion that Bolinger would have tackled this.

Ron said:
>
>The irony of the second part of the sentence is based upon the disambiguation
>of SOMEBODY in approximately the sense that Bologna suggests >>

Hee-hee: Tom P was right! Look what my AOL spell-checker did to "Bolinger"!
Not quite as bad as what it wants to do with Fromkin and Rodman (reported
here some time ago, i.e., AOL suggests that "Fromkin" be changed to
:Foreskin").


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 24 15:37:12 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 10:37:12 EST
Subject: no one/no body
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.103712.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/23/2000 3:26:04 PM, ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM writes:

<< I wonder if no
one and nobody exhibit the same interpretation >>

Offhand I'd guess "no"--but I haven't read the Bolinger article.

Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?
Will nobody rid me of this meddlesome priest?

No one knows the trouble I've seen.
Nobody knows the trouble I've seen.

I ain't got nobody, and nobody cares for me.
I ain't got no one, and no one cares for me.

The only difference I can discern here is formality: "I ain't got no one"
sounds like mixed registers to me. If the "somebody/someone" difference
really is what Bolinger says it is, it makes sense that the semantic
difference would not carry over to the negative, since the closeness of that
which does not exist seems a sort of contradiction in terms or at least
virtually irrelevant. Well, I guess I could see a slight potential difference
between "Will none of y'all rid me of this meddlesome priest?" and "Will no
person in the world rid me of this meddlesome priest?"--but NOBODY/NO ONE
does not, for me, convey that distinction.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Nov 24 16:17:13 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:17:13 -0500
Subject: spell-checker mischief
In-Reply-To: <51.3eb5826.274fe302@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.111713.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

YES, I SENT A MESSAGE TPO RALPH FASOLD ONCE WHICH SUGGESTED HE WAS "FIZZLED."
Damn things!

dInIs

>In a message dated 11/24/2000 6:46:57 AM, lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK writes:
>
><< I'd had a
>suspicion that Bolinger would have tackled this.
>
>Ron said:
>>
>>The irony of the second part of the sentence is based upon the disambiguation
>>of SOMEBODY in approximately the sense that Bologna suggests >>
>
>Hee-hee: Tom P was right! Look what my AOL spell-checker did to "Bolinger"!
>Not quite as bad as what it wants to do with Fromkin and Rodman (reported
>here some time ago, i.e., AOL suggests that "Fromkin" be changed to
>:Foreskin").


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From faber at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Fri Nov 24 16:35:10 2000
From: faber at ALVIN.HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 11:35:10 -0500
Subject: spell-checker mischief
In-Reply-To: <l03130301b64444e180a6@[35.9.48.52]>
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.113510.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis R. Preston said:
>YES, I SENT A MESSAGE TPO RALPH FASOLD ONCE WHICH SUGGESTED HE WAS "FIZZLED."
>Damn things!

Somewhere in my desk, I have a list I made after sending the entire
bibliography for a paper I was working on through the MSWord spell-checker.
The overall effect was quite comical...I wish I knew where that is.
--
Alice Faber                                       tel. (203) 865-6163
Haskins Laboratories                              fax  (203) 865-8963
270 Crown St                                   faber at haskins.yale.edu
New Haven, CT 06511                               afaber at wesleyan.edu


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Nov 24 16:37:53 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 08:37:53 -0800
Subject: spell-checker mischief
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.083753.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ZWICKY is, of course, a trial for spell-checkers.  the french
edition of MSWord just gives up and signals "Mot Inconnu" -
which i have now taken as one of my (many) aliases.

ebbing craft / rice highland / etc. (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Nov 24 21:00:39 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 16:00:39 EST
Subject: spell-checker mischief
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.160039.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/24/00 11:48:19 AM, zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU writes:

<< ZWICKY is, of course, a trial for spell-checkers.  the french
edition of MSWord just gives up and signals "Mot Inconnu" -
which i have now taken as one of my (many) aliases.

ebbing craft / rice highland / etc. (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) >>

AOL says "no suggestions" for ZWICKY


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Nov 25 01:52:12 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 20:52:12 EST
Subject: Naked Lady Party
Message-ID: <FRI.24.NOV.2000.205212.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NAKED LADY PARTY

   Oh, I'll do anything to increase readership.
   But seriously, from the NEW YORK OBSERVER, 27 November 2000, pg. 5, col. 1:

KIMBERLY STEVENS
_Bitch 'n' Swap?_
_The _Real_ Story_
_Is Laid Bare_
(...)  I left a message on my friend Erin's machine. She was the original
co-founder of the Bitch 'n' Swap, whichstarted about six years ago in a tiny
Upper West Side apartment I shared with my sister.  I had two giant bags
after a major closet clean-out and figured all my friends probably had old
clothes they wanted to get rid of.  My friend Erin thought it would be cool
to have an organized bitch session.  "We'll get together and swap our old
things and bitch and drink wine allafternoon.  We'll call it a bitch 'n'
swap,"she said.  (...) But in_Mademoiselle_, the idea was attributed to some
woman out in California who called them "Naked Lady Parties," because
everyone gets naked while they try on clothes.  Bull. (...)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
DAVID SHULMAN

    Shulman tells me has a "What's the damage?" (inspecting a restaurant
bill) from the 1840s and a "Long time no see" from the 1880s.  He plans to
interrupt my chad search tomorrow in the NYPL.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
QUICHE

   Another citation is G.Selmer Fougner's ALONG THE WINE TRAIL (1930s), part
IV, pg. 71:

     _Croustade de Quiche Lorraine_
   Cheese custard with diced fried bacon, chopped onions, chives and parsley.
 Bake in crust.


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Sat Nov 25 15:54:33 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 16:54:33 +0100
Subject: American Heritage Dictionary
Message-ID: <SAT.25.NOV.2000.165433.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

A while back we talked about the dearth of dictionary reviews in American
newspapers. Well, here's one in the Times of the fourth edition of Houghton Miffilin's American
Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.

http://partners.nytimes.com/2000/11/25/arts/25SHEL.html

"In the fourth edition of the American Heritage Dictionary, ... multiple points of
view are proffered and the authority of the past is rejected along with the privileged
position of written poetry and prose. This edition is the climax of several decades
of lexicographical evolution. Though many authorities are consulted for this
dictionary, the ultimate authority is the ordinary person's ordinary speech. Nothing is
absolutely correct; nothing is ever incorrect. It is just a matter of who uses a word and
why."


From mdkgottlieb at YAHOO.COM  Sun Nov 26 00:26:56 2000
From: mdkgottlieb at YAHOO.COM (Michael Gottlieb)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 16:26:56 -0800
Subject: Crazy Bone
Message-ID: <SAT.25.NOV.2000.162656.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This evening's 500 pound question on England's version
of _Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?_ was, "Which of
these is called the 'crazy bone' in the USA?"  The
answer was the 'funny bone.'  Does anyone know in what
regions 'crazy bone' is commonly used?  Or have the
Brits got it wrong?

Mike Gottlieb
University College London


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
http://shopping.yahoo.com/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 26 01:07:54 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 20:07:54 EST
Subject: O.K.; Take-Out; Heroes
Message-ID: <SAT.25.NOV.2000.200754.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

O.K. SIGN (continued)

February 1945, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 6, col. 1.  An ad for
Blakeslee Built Kitchen Machines shows a chef giving the "OK" sign.

February 1945, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 7.  An ad for "Le Gout"
chicken soup base seasoning has the now-familiar "OK-sign" chef on the label.

April 1945, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 39.  An ad for "Le Gout" shows
a photograph of the master chef himself.  He kisses the circle in his fingers.

June 1945, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 3.  An ad for Groetchen
Manufacturing Company of Chicago shows a chef giving something similar to the
"OK" sign, but his first two fingers don't quite form a perfect "O."

--------------------------------------------------------
LIGHT BULB=IDEA

December 1945, AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, pg. 75.  An ad for Golden State
Sales Corporation shows a chef thinking.  A cloud features a light bulb with
the text: "Encourage your CHEF'S BRIGHT IDEA."

--------------------------------------------------------
TAKE-OUT

   OED has the 1940s and later for "take-out"/"take-away" food.
   AMERICAN RESTAURANT MAGAZINE, July 1947, pg. 31, has a story about Alpheus
D. Spiller's "Spiller's" of York Beach, Maine.  It began in 1938.  Pg. 31,
col. 2: "That first year the Spillers sold only fried clams, fried potatoes
and potato chips to take out.  In 1939, they added hot dogs and hamburgers to
their list and business continued to flourish."
   Pg. 32, col. 1, shows Spiller's signs for 1938 and 1939.
   1938 sign:
SPILLER'S
"TAKE-OUT"
FRIED CLAMS
FRENCH FRIES
POTATO CHIPS

   1939 sign:
SPILLER'S
"TAKE-OUT"
FRIED CLAMS
FRENCH FRIES
HAMBURGERS
FRANKFURTS

--------------------------------------------------------
HEROES (continued)

   From SEPIA, November 1966, pg. 39, col. 1:

_Six-Foot_
_Sandwich_
_Hats off to the "Hero" of my heart and my stomach!_
(...)  In his place of business, James (Dellorto, Manganaro's Restaurant, 429
Ninth Avenue, NYC) has smaller versions of what New Yorkers call a "Hero"
sandwich."
(...)  A "Hero" is a piece of Italian bread, in which are special sandwich
ingredients.  The (Pg. 40, col. 1) name "Hero" goes back a number of years
when a food columnist of a New York daily newspaper commented that "you have
to be a hero to eat such a generous piece of bakery."  The name stuck.
   Today, in New York, such sandwiches are known as "Heroes."  In New England
they are known as "Grinders."  In Philadelphia they are called "Hoagies" or
"Submarines."  (Col. 2--ed.)  In the Mid-West people call them "Poor Boys."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 26 02:05:23 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:05:23 EST
Subject: Chad enuffa dis? (continued)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.NOV.2000.210523.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

16 November 2000, WASHINGTON POST, pg. C1--Chad was this week suggested by
some members of the American Dialect Society for consideration as "word of
the year."  (Evan Morris interviewed--ed.)

20 November 2000, LOS ANGELES TIMES, pg. E1--In fact, the word is up for the
American Dialect Society's "word of the year"....  (Laurence Horn
interviewed, denies a Mr. Chadless--ed.)
   For assurance, we turn to the Oxford English Dictionary's Jesse
Sheidlower, principal editor of the North American division.  "Chad," he
sniffs, was already under consideration for inclusion before this brouhaha.

   Further sniffles:

1921--TECHNICAL TERMS.  BRIEF DEFINITIONS OF SOME OF THE THEORETICAL AND
PRACTICAL WORDS AND TERMS USED IN CONNECTION WITH TELEGRAPHY AND TELEPHONY
(Post Office Engineering Department, London).  No "chad."

1925--DICTIONARY OF TECHNOLOGICAL TERMS USED IN ELECTRICAL COMMUNICATION
(Verlag von Julius Springer, Berlin) by O. Sattelberg.  No "chad."

1969--STANDARD DICTIONARY OF COMPUTERS AND INFORMATION PROCESSING (Hayden
Book Co., NY) by Martin H. Weik, pg. 52:
_chad_--A piece of material removed from a paper tape, card, or other medium,
when forming a hole or notch in the medium for the purpose of storing or
recording data.  (Synonymous with _chip_ (2).)
_chadded tape_--See _tape, chadded_.
_chadless_--Pertaining to cards or tape in which each chad is left fastened
by about a quarter of the circumsference of the hole, usually at the leading
edge.  Chadless punching is useful where it is undesirable to destroy
information written or printed on the cards or tape or undesirable to produce
chad.  Only mechanical-feeler type reading mechanisms can be used to sense or
read chadless tape or cards, since the presence of a chadin the tape would
seriously hamper the reliable electrical or photoelectric reading of the
paper tape or (Col. 2--ed.) punched cards.  (Further clarified by _chad_.)
_chadless tape_--See _tape, chadless_.

1970--TECHNICAL DICTIONARY OF DATA PROCESSING-COMPUTERS-OFFICE MACHINES
(Pergamon Press, Berlin) by Dr. Erich Burger.
(English-French-German-Russian)  Pg. 59:
_chaded paper tape_
_chadless_
_chadless paper tape_
_chadless tape_
   semiperforated tape
_chads_ pl, chips pl

1970--FUNK & WAGNALL'S DICTIONARY OF DATA PROCESSING TERMS (Funk & Wagnalls,
NY) by Harold A. Rodgers, pg. 12, col. 2:
_chad_ n.  The fragment of material removed to form a punch in a storage
material, as tape or cards.
_chadded_ adj.  Indicating a punching operation performed on tape that
results in the production of chad.
_chadless_ adj.  Indicating a punching operation performed on tape that
results in the production of no chad.
_chadless tape_  Perforated tape from which the chad does not fully separate,
facilitating explanatory printing on the tape.
_chad tape_  FULLY PERFORATED TAPE.

1972--GLOSSARY OF COMPUTING TERMINOLOGY (CMM Information Corporation, NY) by
C. L. Meek, pg. 35, col. 1:
_chad_  A small piece of paper tape or punch card removed when punching a
hole to represent information. (Source is the 1962 Bureau of the Budget's
AUTOMATIC DATA PROCESSING GLOSSARY--ed.)
_chad_  The circular piece of paper removed from paper tape where a hole is
punched.  (Source is General Electric's undated GLOSSARY OF PROCESS COMPUTER
TERMS--ed.)
_chad tape_  _See_ fully perforated tape.  (Source is the undated IBM DATA
COMMUNICATIONS GLOSSARY--ed.)
_chadded tape_  Perforated tape, paper.  The chad completely removed.
(Source is the undated IBM GLOSSARY FOR INFORMATION PROCESSING--ed.)
_chadded paper tape_  _See_ tape, chadded paper.
_chadless_  A type of punching of paper tape in which each chad is left
fastened by about a quarter of the circumference of the hole, at the leading
edge.  This mode of punching is useful where it is undesirable to destroy
information written or printed on the punched tape or where it is undesirable
to produce chads.  Chadless punched paper tape must be sensed by mechanical
(Col. 2--ed.)fingers, for the presence of chad un the tape would interfere
with reliable electrical or photoelectric reading of the paper tape.
_chadless paper tape_  _See_ tape, chadless paper.
_chadless tape_  Perforated tape with the chad partially attached, to
facilitate interpretive printing on the tape.
_chadless tape_  Perforated tape with the chad partially removed.

1975--DICTIONARY OF DATA PROCESSING (Newnes-Butterworths, London) by Jeff
Maynard, pg. 28, col. 1:
_chad_  The piece of paper removed when a hole is punched in paper tape or a
punched card.
_chadded tape_  Paper tape punched in such a way that the CHADS are only
partially removed and remain attached to the tape.
_chadless tape_  Paper tape from which the CHADS have been completely
removed.  See also CHADDED TAPE.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 26 04:11:35 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 23:11:35 EST
Subject: Tell It Like It Is (1967)
Message-ID: <SAT.25.NOV.2000.231135.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TELL IT LIKE IT IS
by Chuck Stone
Trident Press, NY 1967
(Columns from NY AGE, WASHINGTON AFRO-AMERICAN, and CHICAGO DAILY DEFENDER
1959-1964--ed.)

Pg. i (Preface, 26 Aug. 1967)--Ignoring (and frequently offending)
middle-class "house Negroes" I was more concerned with "rapping" with the
true "soul brother" who understood so well that "the man" was "running a game
on them."

Pg. 10 (August 1964)--Let's--as Daddy-O Daylie says--"tell it like it t-i-s
tis."

Pg. 12 (August 1964)--"What's a backlash?" (...) ...and all that jazz... (Pg.
14--ed.)  What has always existed is the white man's _frontlash_.

Pg. 49 (July 1959)--And, what a big megilla* we made over it!
*Megilla--a Jewish word which means "hassle" or "tumult"--you know, like a
big deal being made over the thing.

Pg. 56 (September 1962)--What people like Drew Pearson, David Lawrence, and
papers like _The New York Times_ just can't seem to accept or realize is that
colored people have been choosing Adam Powell to speak for them for eighteen
years now.
   "He may be a rogue," summed up one woman so eloquently several years ago
as she announced her intention of voting for Adam, "but he's _my_ rogue."

Pg. 135--When we were kids, we used to chant a sassy ditty:
_If you're white, you're all right._
_If you're yellow, you're mellow._
_If you're brown, you can stick around._
_If you're black, step way back._

Pg. 173 (April 1964)--...Irene retorted: "Shucks, when she yells 'Jump!' he
asks 'How high?'" (Pg. 174--ed.) ..."stall-ins"...

Pg. 196 (September 1959)--Sleepily, the customer yawned and said: "Make me a
malted milkshake."
   "Okay," replied the genie, flashing his power on, "you're a malted
milkshake."
(I've heard the "Make me a sandwich" variation of this old joke as well--ed.)


From lmedu at JPS.NET  Sun Nov 26 06:37:09 2000
From: lmedu at JPS.NET (Sharon Vaipae)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 23:37:09 -0700
Subject: language as SES marker
Message-ID: <SAT.25.NOV.2000.233709.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear WordMasters,

I have subscribed to the ADS listserve for several years because I enjoy
words, and equally enjoy the how much I learn about them here.

Your suggestions are solicited for a question to which I have not yet found
a satisfactory
answer. I am a public high school teacher from an upper middle-class family
background in Iowa, and thus speak fairly standard English. Many of my
California small-town alternative school students speak varieties of
English which, I was told as a youngster, were "lower class." I refer to
(1) such simple items as double negatives, misuse of pronouns in subjective
and objective cases, ain't, etc.,  (2) use of "be" outside of deliberate
Eubonics (I be tired), and (3) language not quite vulgar, but close to it
(My butt is tired of sitting), and (4) peppering speech with real
vulgarities.  Some feel they HAVE cleaned up their language when they say
"friggin'" or "f-ing" instead of the real thing, or have no idea that
"shit" carries baggage.

These students are generally bright, community college-bound, and with
aspirations of improving their social, familial, and financial situations.
Few yet have encounted situations where their language would be considered
a handicap, or  failed to recognize it when it might have occurred. ("My
boss at Burger King says 'ain't, and he's doin' big money."  "This is the
way I talk, and if nobody don't like it, that be their problem.")

My problem is how to meaningfully explain, without being laughed out of the
classroom, (1) that language like this is a marker of SES and educational
level, and that its use can exclude one from opportunities one might
otherwise have, (2) make the explanation one they can "relate to," and (3)
not offend my students in the process.

HELP!

Sharon


Sharon Vaipae           "The truth shall make you odd."
LMedu at jps.net                          - Flannery O'Connor
Tracy, CA


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Nov 26 12:37:45 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 07:37:45 -0500
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <20001126002656.22361.qmail@web9904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.073745.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>This evening's 500 pound question on England's version
>of _Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?_ was, "Which of
>these is called the 'crazy bone' in the USA?"  The
>answer was the 'funny bone.'  Does anyone know in what
>regions 'crazy bone' is commonly used?  Or have the
>Brits got it wrong?

Not really *wrong*, but ...

The RHUD shows "crazy bone" (= "funny bone") labeled "Chiefly Northern,
Midland, and Western U.S.". Probably there's a study somewhere.

I've heard "crazy bone" used routinely (northern and midland), but in my
personal experience it's been much less frequent than "funny bone" in the
same regions.

-- Doug Wilson


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Nov 26 13:43:31 2000
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 08:43:31 -0500
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <20001126002656.22361.qmail@web9904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.084331.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE shows us that both are widespread in the US. "Crazy bone" is less
common in the South, and "funny bone" is less common in the West, Midwest,
and New England. As a boy of the South - Midwest borderlands, I grew up
with both.

dInIs



>This evening's 500 pound question on England's version
>of _Who Wants To Be A Millionaire?_ was, "Which of
>these is called the 'crazy bone' in the USA?"  The
>answer was the 'funny bone.'  Does anyone know in what
>regions 'crazy bone' is commonly used?  Or have the
>Brits got it wrong?
>
>Mike Gottlieb
>University College London
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products.
>http://shopping.yahoo.com/


Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston at pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736


From Ellen.Polsky at COLORADO.EDU  Sun Nov 26 15:03:11 2000
From: Ellen.Polsky at COLORADO.EDU (POLSKY ELLEN S)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 08:03:11 -0700
Subject: language as SES marker
In-Reply-To: <l03130303b64657247d95@[216.224.147.205]>
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.080311.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In response to Sharon Vaipae, who would like to discuss with her students
when it is appropriate to use standard English (and when it is appropriate
to use home dialects), I suggest the book "Dialects in Schools and
Communities" by Walt Wolfram, Carilyn Adger, and Donna Christian.  The
publishers are Lawrence Erlbaum Associates.  The copyright is 1999.  Pay
special attention to Chapter 8 (Dialect Awareness for Students).  His work
with dialect awareness in middle schools is quite amazing.

Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky at Colorado.EDU)


From Amcolph at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 26 15:35:04 2000
From: Amcolph at AOL.COM (Ray Ott)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 10:35:04 EST
Subject: Crazy Bone
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.103504.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".  The
"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"

Ray Ott


From sagehen at SLIC.COM  Sun Nov 26 16:41:58 2000
From: sagehen at SLIC.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:41:58 -0500
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <57.df0424e.275287a8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.114158.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".  The
>"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
>laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"
>
>Ray Ott
----------
Same here, growing up in Nebraska in the thirties & forties. ( Had to wait
a couple of decades for the effect of Bob & Ray!)
A. Murie

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at slic.com


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Sun Nov 26 17:53:40 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 09:53:40 -0800
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <l03130300b646ed22b469@[216.207.138.128]>
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.095340.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Same here, growing up in Portland, OR. I can't recall anyone using "funny
bone" for the elbow.

Allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, sagehen wrote:

> >Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".  The
> >"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
> >laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"
> >
> >Ray Ott
> ----------
> Same here, growing up in Nebraska in the thirties & forties. ( Had to wait
> a couple of decades for the effect of Bob & Ray!)
> A. Murie
>
> A&M Murie
> N. Bangor NY
> sagehen at slic.com
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Nov 26 22:41:01 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 17:41:01 EST
Subject: Bullderdash
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.174101.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BULLDERDASH

   From the FINANCIAL TIMES, November 25-26, 2000, Weekend, Pg. XXVIII (28 to
you and me, but this is the FT), col. 3:

THE LONG VIEW by Barry Riley
_The old bear and Bush_
_Mort Duhm is cheered by the unsustainable financial environment_
(...)  "That (sic) what I call bullderdash," snapped Duhm.  "After such a
long bull market it just takes a long time to change the mentality of
investors.  They know a severe correction is looming.  Indeed, it's already
happened in the technology sectors, which are 50 per cent down from the March
highs.  But these days nobody dares to go liquid."
("Duhm" is a dumb, made-up name.  The article describes Duhm as a
"doomster"--the opposite of "boomster"--ed.)

(The same Weekend FT has "Wordplay" by Ian Davidson--not my idea of a word
column, and not in every week--and a review of Encarta's quotations book and
others, by Jan Dalley--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
MISC.

LONG TIME, NO SEE--David Shulman told me yesterday that he was incorrect.
His "long time, no see" was from the 1940s, not the 1880s.  Never mind.

STOVE PIPE ORGANIZATION--I couldn't find it before 1993.  So maybe it wasn't
Peter Drucker, but possibly Tom Peters?

SAFIRE WATCH--Nothing's changed.  My letter to the editor was censored.  My
corrections were censored.  This week--Safire can't do "chad," because he'd
have to credit the American Dialect Society and maybe me--he does "snippy."
The source is right out of OED, but Safire doesn't credit the OED and makes
as if he found "snippy" himself.

KATHERINE HARRIS WATCH--There is no Katherine Harris watch!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Nov 27 01:52:15 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 20:52:15 EST
Subject: ACM Glossary; Computers and Automation
Message-ID: <SUN.26.NOV.2000.205215.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The NYU Bobst Library has ELECTRONIC DATA PROCESSING IN INDUSTRY, report
#3, American Management Association, 1955 (Call number HF5548.A518 c.1).  On
pages 243-257 is a "Glossary of Programming Terminology."  Pg. 243: "This
Glossary was prepared as a report to the Association of Computing Machinery
in June 1954, by its Committee on Nomenclature: Grace Murray Hopper,
Chairman...."  No "chad."
   I've been going through the extremely boring AMERICAN DOCUMENTATION
(1950-present).  I read a citation for a more interesting journal, COMPUTERS
AND AUTOMATION, which has a "Glossary of Terms in the Field of Computers and
Automation" in December 1954, pages 8-23.  NYU doesn't seem to have this
journal (which I'll check in the NYPL tomorrow), and I'm holding George
Thompson responsible.


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Mon Nov 27 09:44:27 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:44:27 +0100
Subject: UK Spelling Row
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.104427.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

"The government has told school test officials to scrap their advice to pupils about
using non-English spellings such as "fetus" and "sulfate" in national curriculum
science tests."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/education/newsid_1039000/1039050.stm


From ramt1 at YORK.AC.UK  Mon Nov 27 12:03:35 2000
From: ramt1 at YORK.AC.UK (Ros Temple)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:03:35 +0000
Subject: THIRD UK LANGUAGE VARIATION AND CHANGE CONFERENCE
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.120335.0000.RAMT1@YORK.AC.UK>

With apologies for cross / double postings


THIRD UK LANGUAGE VARIATION CONFERENCE

Call for papers

The third UK Language Variation Conference will take place at the
University of York from July 19th to 22nd 2001. This series of meetings
was inaugurated at the University of Reading in 1997 and aims to provide a
forum in the United Kingdom where the focus will be on the quantitative
study of language variation and change. Proposals are invited for
20-minute contributions (plus 10 minutes? discussion) on topics falling
within the proposed focus area. Abstracts (max. 500 words) should be sent
within the text of an email to uklvc3 at york.ac.uk, stating author?s name,
address (electronic and postal) and institutional affiliation. Deadline
for submission of abstracts: January 31st, 2001. All abstracts will be
refereed and replies will be sent out by April 1st, 2001.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dept of Language and Linguistic Science,
University of York,                             ramt1 at york.ac.uk
Heslington,                                     direct:   + 44.1904.432671
York YO1 5DD                                    dept sec: + 44.1904.432650
England / Lloegr                                fax:      + 44.1904.432673


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Nov 27 14:40:06 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:40:06 -0500
Subject: "chad" in OED
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.094006.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just wanted to clarify the status of the word _chad_ in the OED.
Despite various statements about its future inclusion, such
statements including my reported "sniffing" that it was under
consideration before recent political events, _chad_ was first
publicly included in OED material in 1993, in the _Oxford
English Dictionary Additions Series,_ Volume I. It is in OED
Online as well. Our etymology is "Origin unknown" and the first
example is 1959, which will be improved upon when we get
around to revising it.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED
<jester at panix.com>


From tcf at MACOMB.COM  Mon Nov 27 15:07:54 2000
From: tcf at MACOMB.COM (Tim Frazer)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:07:54 -0600
Subject: language as SES marker
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.090754.0600.TCF@MACOMB.COM>

You might start by making an honest admission that our choice of "standard"
in any language is almost always the result of one group's lock on political
and economic power.  The dialect spoken in N Iowa and in my hometown in N
Illinois, Inland Northern, became de facto standard because of the economic
and social proclivities of Yankees from the northeast.  They dominated city
and small-town businesses; they felt their culture and Protestant religion
made them superior to others; they also, during the nineteenth century,
dominated the public education system and, probably, publishers.  It is not
fair but it is reality.  (I will here promote the chapter on "Yankee
Cultural Imperialism" in my book HEARTLAND ENGLISH.)

Realize, too, that many changes in English are part of processes which have
been going on since the Norman Invasion of England radically changed
English.  Anglo  Saxon English and other dialects of the time relied on
complex sets of suffixes and a very diverse set of pronouns to make sense.
Even as late as the sixteen century, for example, English still had separate
second-person pronouns for singular (thou) and plural (you).  But English
continues to simply that system: now "you" is both singular and plural.
When kids say "me and him did it," they continue that process of
simplification.  It seems to me to be much more logical than "standard"
English.  We need to teach language arts with an informed attitude.  That
helps.

Tim Frazer
----- Original Message -----
From: Sharon Vaipae <lmedu at JPS.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2000 12:37 AM
Subject: language as SES marker


> Dear WordMasters,
>
> I have subscribed to the ADS listserve for several years because I enjoy
> words, and equally enjoy the how much I learn about them here.
>
> Your suggestions are solicited for a question to which I have not yet
found
> a satisfactory
> answer. I am a public high school teacher from an upper middle-class
family
> background in Iowa, and thus speak fairly standard English. Many of my
> California small-town alternative school students speak varieties of
> English which, I was told as a youngster, were "lower class." I refer to
> (1) such simple items as double negatives, misuse of pronouns in
subjective
> and objective cases, ain't, etc.,  (2) use of "be" outside of deliberate
> Eubonics (I be tired), and (3) language not quite vulgar, but close to it
> (My butt is tired of sitting), and (4) peppering speech with real
> vulgarities.  Some feel they HAVE cleaned up their language when they say
> "friggin'" or "f-ing" instead of the real thing, or have no idea that
> "shit" carries baggage.
>
> These students are generally bright, community college-bound, and with
> aspirations of improving their social, familial, and financial situations.
> Few yet have encounted situations where their language would be considered
> a handicap, or  failed to recognize it when it might have occurred. ("My
> boss at Burger King says 'ain't, and he's doin' big money."  "This is the
> way I talk, and if nobody don't like it, that be their problem.")
>
> My problem is how to meaningfully explain, without being laughed out of
the
> classroom, (1) that language like this is a marker of SES and educational
> level, and that its use can exclude one from opportunities one might
> otherwise have, (2) make the explanation one they can "relate to," and (3)
> not offend my students in the process.
>
> HELP!
>
> Sharon
>
>
> Sharon Vaipae           "The truth shall make you odd."
> LMedu at jps.net                          - Flannery O'Connor
> Tracy, CA
>


From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Mon Nov 27 15:20:33 2000
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:20:33 -0500
Subject: Fwd: chad
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.102033.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Forwarded with permission, an interesting comment from one of my readers:



>From: BobKamman at aol.com
>Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2000 14:40:11 EST
>Subject: My theory on chad
>To: questions at word-detective.com
>X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 115
>
>In a letter to the Wall Street Journal, I write:
>
>Not to nitpick, but it is highly unlikely that the word "chad" originated
>from an invention by a Mr. Chadless, to keypunch tape or cards in a way that
>did not create confetti residue (Comment: Words, Nov. 22).  A search of
>several genealogical databases turns up no one with that last name except one
>man in North Carolina in 1860.
>
>A better theory is that the term originated from the British military slang
>term "chat," for louse, as in the tiny flat rectangular insects about the
>size of a chad.  Some evidence for this comparison comes from an April 1988
>computer hacker newsletter, preserved by several websites, which advises:
>"The first thing to do is empty the card punch's punchbin of all the little
>punchlets, and throw them in someone's hair some rowdy night.  I guarantee
>the little suckers will stay in their hair for six months, they are
>impossible to get out.  Static or something makes them cling like lice.
>Showers don't even work."
>
>The slang "chat" may be derived from the earlier, more common meaning of the
>word.  One website devoted to British World War I terminology reports:  "Lice
>were the soldier's constant companions and were known colloquially as
>'chats.' Troops used to congregate in groups to de-louse themselves, and
>de-lousing, or  'chatting' became a social event."

--
Evan Morris
words1 at word-detective.com
http://www.word-detective.com


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Mon Nov 27 16:53:47 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:53:47 -0500
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.21.0011260951420.116432-100000@homer36.u.washin
 gton.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.115347.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ditto for Minnesota.  But in southern Ohio I only hear "funny bone" for
both elbow and amusing stuff.

At 09:53 AM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote:
>Same here, growing up in Portland, OR. I can't recall anyone using "funny
>bone" for the elbow.
>
>Allen
>maberry at u.washington.edu
>
>On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, sagehen wrote:
>
> > >Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".  The
> > >"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
> > >laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"
> > >
> > >Ray Ott
> > ----------
> > Same here, growing up in Nebraska in the thirties & forties. ( Had to wait
> > a couple of decades for the effect of Bob & Ray!)
> > A. Murie
> >
> > A&M Murie
> > N. Bangor NY
> > sagehen at slic.com
> >


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Mon Nov 27 17:13:41 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:13:41 +0000
Subject: Crazy Bone
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.171341.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> From:         Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>
> Ditto for Minnesota.  But in southern Ohio I only hear "funny bone" for
> both elbow and amusing stuff.
>
> At 09:53 AM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote:
> >Same here, growing up in Portland, OR. I can't recall anyone using "funny
> >bone" for the elbow.
> >Allen
> >maberry at u.washington.edu
> >
> >On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, sagehen wrote:
> >
> > > >Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".  The
> > > >"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
> > > >laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"
> > > >
> > > >Ray Ott
> > > ----------
> > > Same here, growing up in Nebraska in the thirties & forties. ( Had to wait
> > > a couple of decades for the effect of Bob & Ray!)
> > > A. Murie


I'd never heard of 'crazy bone' before this exchange.  I'm wondering if there's
perhaps a generational divide on this.

Lynne, who knows Bob ("Bob and Ray") Elliot only as Chris Elliot's father...

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK


From storkrn at EMAIL.MSN.COM  Mon Nov 27 17:17:14 2000
From: storkrn at EMAIL.MSN.COM (storkrn)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:17:14 -0800
Subject: Crazy Bone
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.091714.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In rural Connecticut I never heard anything but funny bone. In fact as I've thought about it, I've only heard crazy bone in
California in the past few years.

Sharyn Hay storknurse


Beverly Flanigan wrote
> Ditto for Minnesota.  But in southern Ohio I only hear "funny bone" for
> both elbow and amusing stuff.
>
> At 09:53 AM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote:
> >Same here, growing up in Portland, OR. I can't recall anyone using "funny
> >bone" for the elbow.
> >Allen
> >maberry at u.washington.edu
> >
> >On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, sagehen wrote:
> >
> > > >Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".  The
> > > >"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
> > > >laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"
> > > >
> > > >Ray Ott
> > > ----------
> > > Same here, growing up in Nebraska in the thirties & forties. ( Had to wait
> > > a couple of decades for the effect of Bob & Ray!)
> > > A. Murie


I'd never heard of 'crazy bone' before this exchange.  I'm wondering if there's
perhaps a generational divide on this.

Lynne, who knows Bob ("Bob and Ray") Elliot only as Chris Elliot's father...

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Mon Nov 27 17:13:57 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:13:57 EST
Subject: gunners; monachie again; and modest American females, 1823
In-Reply-To: <a0.66ffaba.268af4ff@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.121357.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Noticed in the sports pages of the NYTimes a few days ago, but
retrieved from Proquest this morning, a word not in HDAS:

        "After Desmond Howard returned a punt 50 yards in the first quarter,
Fassel yelled, "Where the hell are the gunners going?"  Good
question.  We know where the gunners -- the human missiles who go
directly after the return man once the ball is kicked -- were not
going, and that was toward Howard."
        NY Times, November 20, 2000
        HDAS has "gunner" as a basketball term, and in other contexts, but
not this football sense.

        Enough of this recent stuff.  My heart is in the 1820s.

        Some months ago I posted from an 1823 source the word "monachie", an
apparently unrecorded term for a part of a cart.  I haven't been able
to get into the LinguistList this morning, so I can't refresh my
memory as to when I posted this, or the extent of the rather
desultory discussion the posting produced.  However, the citation
left unclear exactly what a "monachie" was: where on the cart, and of
what use.       Another report of the same incident is more descriptive:
        ". . . the prisoner instantly seized the monachie of his cart (a
stick standing up in front of a cart, about 3 feet long, and used to
tie the reins to,) and threw it at . . . the deceased. . . .
        Commercial Advertiser, November 14, 1823, p. 2, col. 4

        This is from the New-York Evening Post of July 15, 1823, p. 2, cols.
2-3.  The editor is quoting from a article published in the Glasgow
Chronicle of May 24, 1823, by one Hedderwick, on his observations
while travelling in the United States.
        "So far as I am able to judge, the English language is universally
spoken in greater purity than it is in Britain.  I also willingly pay
my tribute of admiration to the American females, for the exemplary
inoffensive "modest" exclamations, universally substituted for those
multiform irreverential expletives in vogue in Britain; according to
the degree of wonder, approbation or dislike meant to be expressed;
the phrases are, "Oh, my! -- Oh my, my! -- Oh my, my! well, did you
ever?""

GAT


From jessie at SIRSI.COM  Mon Nov 27 17:29:46 2000
From: jessie at SIRSI.COM (Jessie Emerson)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:29:46 -0600
Subject: Crazy Bone
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.112946.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've only ever heard/used funny bone.

There are some collectable plastic toys called crazy bones; I think the
"craze" started about four years ago, immediately after beanie babies
started losing ground.

Jessie Emerson


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Nov 27 17:38:16 2000
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:38:16 -0800
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <E140Rqf-0005c9-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.093816.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This might be generational, but I'm not too sure. It seems out here
in the PNW that "tickling one's funny bone" for being amused is the one
that was used or was at least familiar to my generation (and before). I
certainly don't hear it much anymore.
It could be simply regional as most of my family is either from the
Midwest or the South, as were the vast majority of the people grew up
with.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Lynne Murphy wrote:

> > From:         Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
> >
> > Ditto for Minnesota.  But in southern Ohio I only hear "funny bone" for
> > both elbow and amusing stuff.
> >
> > At 09:53 AM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote:
> > >Same here, growing up in Portland, OR. I can't recall anyone using "funny
> > >bone" for the elbow.
> > >Allen
> > >maberry at u.washington.edu
> > >
> > >On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, sagehen wrote:
> > >
> > > > >Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".  The
> > > > >"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
> > > > >laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"
> > > > >
> > > > >Ray Ott
> > > > ----------
> > > > Same here, growing up in Nebraska in the thirties & forties. ( Had to wait
> > > > a couple of decades for the effect of Bob & Ray!)
> > > > A. Murie
>
>
> I'd never heard of 'crazy bone' before this exchange.  I'm wondering if there's
> perhaps a generational divide on this.
>
> Lynne, who knows Bob ("Bob and Ray") Elliot only as Chris Elliot's father...
>
> Dr M Lynne Murphy
> Lecturer in Linguistics
> School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
> University of Sussex
> Brighton BN1 9QH
> UK
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Nov 27 17:36:57 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:36:57 -0500
Subject: Fwd: chad
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20001127101854.00d18ac0@mail.word-detective.com>
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.123657.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>The slang "chat" may be derived from the earlier, more common meaning of the
>>word.  One website devoted to British World War I terminology reports:  "Lice
>>were the soldier's constant companions and were known colloquially as
>>'chats.' Troops used to congregate in groups to de-louse themselves, and
>>de-lousing, or  'chatting' became a social event."

But "chat" = "talk" in the 'modern' sense occurred as early as 1556, and in
a slightly different sense as early as 1440, according to the OED: thought
to be from "chatter".

"Chat(t)s" = "lice" apparently exists since 1690 (OED): said to be from
"chattel" (lice = the poor man's cattle) (discussed in Farmer and Hensley,
ca. 1900).

Partridge gives the verb "chat" or "chatt" = "look for lice"/"delouse",
from WW I. But apparently "chat" = "talk" was already long established
separately. Possibly these were connected as a sort of joke during WW I?

-- Doug Wilson


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Mon Nov 27 18:30:48 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:30:48 -0600
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <20001126002656.22361.qmail@web9904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.123048.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE has maps showing somewhat complementary distributions for crazy bone
and funny bone.  Crazy bone is labeled "widespread, but least freq in Sth,
NYC."  Funny bone is dense throughout the South and all of NY state (as
well as in many other areas).  The label given there is "widespread, but
less common eNEng, Midl, West."


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Mon Nov 27 18:37:48 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:37:48 +0000
Subject: Crazy Bone
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.183748.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> DARE has maps showing somewhat complementary distributions for crazy bone
> and funny bone.  Crazy bone is labeled "widespread, but least freq in Sth,
> NYC."  Funny bone is dense throughout the South and all of NY state (as
> well as in many other areas).  The label given there is "widespread, but
> less common eNEng, Midl, West."
>

OK, maybe it's not generational then (since I fit into the NY state
category).  I wonder why the south and NY state are the same though...

Lynne


From drew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Mon Nov 27 20:32:53 2000
From: drew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:32:53 -0500
Subject: a horse a piece
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.153253.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am interested in phrases that signify (usually qualitative) similarity
or equality.  Examples are "a horse a piece", "six of one, half dozen of
the other", or "the same difference".  I have an (obvious) feeling that
"a horse a piece" has its origins somewhere in equestrian culture, but
as a newbie to dialectology, I have not been able to confirm or trace it
with the resources at my disposal.

A discussion of origins of these sorts of phrases seems to me to be a
reasonable segue out of the chad threads, not to mention that whole mess
in Florida :)

Drew.Danielson at cmu.edu


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Mon Nov 27 20:53:40 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:53:40 +0000
Subject: a horse a piece
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.205340.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I am interested in phrases that signify (usually qualitative) similarity
> or equality.  Examples are "a horse a piece", "six of one, half dozen of
> the other", or "the same difference".  I have an (obvious) feeling that
> "a horse a piece" has its origins somewhere in equestrian culture, but
> as a newbie to dialectology, I have not been able to confirm or trace it
> with the resources at my disposal.

I've never heard 'a horse a piece', but I've been thinking about another
item that might fit into this set:  "It's all the same to me."  The
interesting thing about this and "same difference" (well, interesting to
me at least) is that while the speaker is claiming that the things are the
same, they are acknowledging that they are objectively different.  I've
been interested in these phrases for what they indicate about people's
attitudes toward the synonymy of expressions.  (For example, you might
tell me that the phrases in this set mean different things, but it's all
the same to me.)

Lynne



Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From drew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Mon Nov 27 22:57:49 2000
From: drew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:57:49 -0500
Subject: a horse apiece
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.175749.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I'll be
> interested to hear where you've heard the phrase "a horse apiece" used.
> All of our examples are from Wisconsin, but since they were heard
> anecdotally, we didn't know whether it was an accident of our location or
> whether there might be some real regionality.

I honestly don't remember where I first heard the phrase, only that it's
been recently (within the past 5 years) that I remember hearing it.  I
spent a lot of time in parts of Virginia where there are military
families from all over the US, but that may or may not be where I heard
it.

The phrase is not in common usage in my region (Western PA), but I think
it's a colorful expression so I try to use it when I can to help grow
its currency.  I haven't had to explain its meaning to anyone, so
apparently it's understood (or else its meaning is easily inferred
through its context).

I did quick searches on google.com and altavista.com for the phrase, and
the  minimal data I was able to collect there show the phrase being used
once in a Usenet message by someone from one of the Dakotas, and a
Canadian website for writers attributed it as being used in Upper
Michigan and Wisconsin.

Drew.Danielson at cmu.edu


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Nov 27 23:07:43 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:07:43 -0800
Subject: a horse apiece
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.150743.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

to drew.danielson at cmu.edu: could we have some examples of the
expression in context?

another suggestion for the inventory of possible related expressions:
"a distinction/difference that makes no difference".


From drew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Mon Nov 27 23:23:15 2000
From: drew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 18:23:15 -0500
Subject: a horse apiece
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.182315.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold Zwicky wrote:
>
> to drew.danielson at cmu.edu: could we have some examples of the
> expression in context?

"As far as email readers, Netscape and Eudora are a horse a piece.  Now,
Outlook is a bird of a different feather."

"Do you want to go out for dinner or stay in and eat?" "I don't know,
it's a horse a piece."


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Nov 27 23:48:25 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:48:25 -0800
Subject: a horse apiece
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.154825.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

examples of "a horse a piece"...

ah, check DARE on "a horse apiece" 'a draw' (i.e. 'a horse for each'),
with wisconsin quotations, esp., the second (with reference to 1966),
in which the dice game "horse" is cited.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From l.gibson at LYCOS.COM  Tue Nov 28 00:42:41 2000
From: l.gibson at LYCOS.COM (Lauren Gibson)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 16:42:41 -0800
Subject: Regional Dialects
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.164241.0800.>

Hello! I am doing research for a paper on Regional Dialects and I desperately need your help. If you could, please tell me what city/state you are from and then read the descriptions of words and tell me what word you would use to go along with that description(what word I am describing). It won't take long, I promise! Thank you for your time.

Example: place where a train stops : station, railway station, depot, train stop,                                                   train station, or railroad station

1) Center of a peach:  ________
2) to put a single room of the house in order: __________
3) web hanging from the ceiling of a room: __________
4) large open metal container for scrub water: _________
5) grass strip in the center of a divided road: __________
6) policeman: ________
7) place where packaged groceries can be purchased: ________
8) insect that glows at night: _________
9) a carbonated drink: __________
10) food eaten between regular meals: ________
11) someone who is from the country: _________
12) someone who won't change his mind is said to be: _________
13) fast-moving amusement park ride (on tracks): ________
14) paper container for groceries: ________

Thank you again,

Lauren Gibson
l.gibson at lycos.com


Get FREE Email/Voicemail with 15MB at Lycos Communications at http://comm.lycos.com


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Tue Nov 28 01:09:55 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:09:55 -0500
Subject: a horse apiece
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.200955.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A selection of 'a horse apiece' cites from around the web.  There may be
an indication of region in a couple of the sites, per their web
address.  All in all, a new and interesting phrase for me.

George S. Cole  gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University
======================

>From Senate minutes, i.e., the student senate, at UWGB:
http://www.uwgb.edu/studgov/Senate100900.htm

http://www.shu.ac.uk/web-admin/phrases/bulletin_board/3/messages/491.html

http://www.shu.ac.uk/web-admin/phrases/bulletin_board/3/messages/492.html

http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extnews/newsrelease/1999/042999/26hortis.htm

http://talk.hunters.com/talk/Big_Game_Hunting/19594.html

http://www.fishinfo.com/andymyers/freport.htmmesg/172.html

http://www.paw.com/sail/ncssa/HISTORY-09-LillysWin.htm

http://www.ideatree.net/reflexdo/v1n1crea.html

http://www.ideatree.net/comments/colarc05.htm

http://www.merc.net/kvi/wwwboard/messages/112.html

http://deborahmaebroad.com/E_02-M.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 28 01:31:44 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:31:44 EST
Subject: NYSE "teenies"
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.203144.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the DAILY NEWS EXPRESS (rush hour freebie version of the newspaper),
27 November 2000, pg. 14, col. 1:

_A new market language_
(...) A teenie is trader jargon for 1/16 of a dollar, or 6.25 cents.
(Col. 2--ed.)  The term "teenies," for example, dates back to 1997, when the
exchanges began trading stocks in increments of 1/16 for the first time.
"Three sixteenths" quickly became "three teenths" and then "three teenies."
   But "teenies" are meaningless in decimal trading, where stocks can be
traded in 1/100th--or penny--increments, so now traders have to find a new
vocabulary that maximizes (Col. 3--ed.) efficiency without compromising
accuracy.

(Actually, while "teenies" shows up on the Dow Jones database frequently from
5-5-97, there's a BARRON'S 1-27-92 hit and a SF EXAMINER 2-2-93 hit as
well--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 28 02:28:14 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:28:14 EST
Subject: Rueben; Monte Cristo; French Dip; Box Lunch; Kaiser
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.212814.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I've been going through RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT.  There are quite a few gems.

--------------------------------------------------------
RUEBEN; MONTE CRISTO; FRENCH DIP SANDWICHES

   From RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, June 1936, pages 412-413:

_Hy's Three-Ring Circus MENU MAKING_
E. A. Bachman, proprietor of the Annex, Portland, Oregon, features Hy Frager,
the famous American chef who peps up menu listings with verbal acrobatics.
(Pg. 413, col. 1--ed.)
       _Combination Sandwiches_
"CLUBHOUSE" (Breast of Chicken, Crisp Premium Bacon, TOmato, Lettuce, Pickles
and Olives)... .40
"RUEBEN" (Not "Reuben"--ed.) (Baked Premium Ham, WHite Meat Chicken, Coquille
Swiss Cheese and Tomato on Russian Rye)... .45
"MONTE CRISTO" (Baked Ham and Coquille Swiss Cheese, French Toasted in
Butter)... .35
"ANNEX" (Oregon's Choice Yaquina Oysters, Ham, Green Peppers in Butter, Cream
and Eggs)... .45
(Col. 2--ed.)
"POP" (Chicken Salad, Lettuce, Tomato and Bacon, Olives)... .30
"HOLC" (Baked Ham, Peanut Butter and India Relish)... .25
"PWA" (Tuna Fish, Tomato, Lettuce and 1000 Isle)... .25
"FOREST SERVICE" (Baked Beans, Chili Sauce and Bacon)...  .25
"FRENCH DIP SANDWICH" (A crispy, crunchy Hard Roll w/ an amazing filling of
Barbecued Meat, Swiss Cheese and a spicy, tangy Wine Sauce that combines into
a superb bouquet of flavor)... .20

   Also, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, January 1937, "ideas from a thousand menus,"
pg. 55, col. 2:

SANDWICHES (...)
$.35 Monte Cristo (Ham and American Cheese, Dipped in Egg, Fried in
Butter)--Ballard-Ludlow Ferry.

--------------------------------------------------------
CHEESEBURGERS

   OED has "cheeseburger" from 1938, citing AMERICAN SPEECH.
   From RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, June 1935, pg. 429, advertisement for
Kraft-Phenix Cuisine Service:

The new profit specialty--
HAMBURGER-CHEESE BUNS
   In every town they've hit, they've been a sensation--Hamburger-Cheese
Buns!  Something new...something people try out of curiosity..order again and
again because they taste _so good_!
   They're toasted buns filled with fried hamburger patties, Miracle Whip
Salad Dressing, India relish and--Kraft "Old English" Cheese!

(Kraft would have tons of "cheeseburger" ads in the 1950s in this same
publication--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
BACON-LETTUCE-TOMATO (BLT)

   From RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, April 1937, pg. 303, and a menu dated December
15, 1936:

   SANDWICHES
Bacon, Tomato and Lettuce Sandwich  .20

(OED has _Hash House_ of 1941 for this "BMT" sandwich.  Kraft would call this
"America's Favorite" in its multi-colored 1950s ads, but I'll tell you when I
spot "BLT"--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
BOX LUNCH

   OED has 1954 for "box lunch."  Surely, better stuff is in the files?
   RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, April 1937, pg. 310, col. 1:

_LUNCH BOX CATERERS DOOM FULL DINNER PAIL_
(Photo--ed.) Line up of caterers' trucks at a Milwaukee factory waiting for
the noonday rush.
(Another photo shows a building that reads: "THE HOME OF ACE, INC., BOX LUNCH
'There are None Better'"--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
KAISER ROLLS

   OED has 1968 for "Kaiser bun" and 1978 for "Kaiser roll."  Just awful!  I
haven't checked DARE.
   From RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, June 1937, pg. 516, col. 2:

_ROLLS FOR INTERNATIONAL APPETITES_
    _INDEX-ROLLS_
    _SOFT ROLLS_
No.  Name of Roll  Cost per Dozen
1.  Basic Soft Roll Dough
2.  Cinnamon Buns...$.04 1/2
3.  Clover Leaf Rolls... .04
4.  English Crescent Rolls... .04
5.  Finger Rolls... .04
6.  Parker House Rolls... .04
7.  Poppy Seed Twist Rolls... .04
8.  Raisin Rolls... .06
9.  Soft Round Rolls... .04
10. Soft Waldorf Rolls... .04
11. Sugar Buns... .03
    _HARD ROLLS_
12. Basic Hard Roll Dough
13. Cigar Rolls... .03 1/2
14. French Crescent Rolls... .15
15. French Split Rolls... .02
16. Galette Rolls... .03
17. Hard Waldorf Rolls... .02 1/2
18. Kaiser Rolls... .03
19. Salstein Rolls... .03
   _MISCELLANEOUS ROLLS_
20. Bran Muffins... .11
21. Corn Muffins... .07
22. English Muffins... .04
23. Rye Rolls... .02 2/3
24. Tea Biscuits... .02
25. Whole Wheat Rolls... .02 2/3
25A. Rum Buns... .05


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 28 02:48:26 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:48:26 EST
Subject: V-sign; OK-sign
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.214826.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

V-SIGN

   From RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, April 1937, pg. 328, col. 1 ad:

_Look Gay...Be Gay_
in Smart New
Uniforms with
CHEERIO _Print_
_Accessories_...
   There's a gay spirit in the air when waitresses wear HOOVER'S smart uniforms with flower-print accessories.  Pretty as a picture, yet perfectly practical...because, like _all_ HOOVER service uniforms, these too are tailored to give long service.  Order the uniform illustrated in maize or green... Sizes 14 to 46.
HOOVER
Creators of Original Ideas
FOR SMART UNIFORMS
251 West 19th Street . New York, N. Y.

(The waitress is smiling and giving the "V" sign to someone not shown.  What could this mean?  This was before Winston Churchill and before "gay=homosexual."--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
OK-SIGN

   This is showing up in a food context before Ballantine's beer advertisements (see ADS-L archive).  I read a few 1930s and a few 1950s RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT issues.

May 1935, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 340.  An ad for Frigidaire shows a chef making the sign.  All his fingers are curved and the circle is not quite finished, with the two fingers a hair apart.

May 1936, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 366, col. 1.  An ad for Calumet Baking Powder shows a chef making the sign.  "_Voila!_  What would you expect!  _Of course_, the FRENCH LINE uses Calumet!"
(On the same page, col. 2, is an A-1 Sauce ad that shows something very close to the "smiley"--ed.)

January 1937, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 3.  Thermotainer ad shows a chef spoon-tasting with one hand and giving the sign with the other hand.  "WONDERFUL!"

January 1937, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 70.  An ad for Hall Fireproof China shows a chef making the sign.

October 1952, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 110, col. 1.  An ad for Univex Vegetable Peeler shows a chef making the sign with his thumb and middle finger.

February 1954, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 59.  An ad for Angelica Uniforms shows a chef making the sign.


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Nov 28 03:28:01 2000
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:28:01 -0600
Subject: Crazy Bone
In-Reply-To: <E140Rqf-0005c9-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.212801.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>> From:         Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
>>
>> Ditto for Minnesota.  But in southern Ohio I only hear "funny bone" for
>> both elbow and amusing stuff.
>>
>> At 09:53 AM 11/26/00 -0800, you wrote:
>> >Same here, growing up in Portland, OR. I can't recall anyone using "funny
>> >bone" for the elbow.
>> >Allen
>> >maberry at u.washington.edu
>> >
>> >On Sun, 26 Nov 2000, sagehen wrote:
>> >
>> > > >Groing up in the west (N. Cal) the elbow was always a "crazy bone".
>>The
>> > > >"funny bone" was what got tickled when you heard something amusing and
>> > > >laughed, eg:  "Bob and Ray really tickle my funnybone!"
>> > > >
>> > > >Ray Ott
>> > > ----------
>> > > Same here, growing up in Nebraska in the thirties & forties. ( Had
>>to wait
>> > > a couple of decades for the effect of Bob & Ray!)
>> > > A. Murie
>
>
>I'd never heard of 'crazy bone' before this exchange.  I'm wondering if
>there's
>perhaps a generational divide on this.
>
>Lynne, who knows Bob ("Bob and Ray") Elliot only as Chris Elliot's father...
>
>Dr M Lynne Murphy

Oh good, I thought I had been missing something all my life: I also had
never heard "crazy bone" before, and, in fact, only a few days ago I hit
that part of my anatomy, and I'm pretty sure a student asked me if I had
hit my funny bone, and I agreed.

I grew up in Ohio (near Cleveland) and MA (north of Boston).

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 28 04:11:10 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:11:10 EST
Subject: Chad; Popular Mechanics (1947)
Message-ID: <MON.27.NOV.2000.231110.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CHAD (continued)

   "Chad" is discussed by some guy named Chad in today's WALL STREET JOURNAL,
pg. 1.  The ADS is not mentioned, but "linguists" are.
   "Chad" wasn't in the 1954 glossary in COMPUTERS AND AUTOMATION.
   COMPUTERS AND AUTOMATION, November 1955, pg. 31, col. 2 ad for Potter
Instrument's tape handlers:  "The Potter Digital Magnetic Head eliminates
'digit drop-outs' due to oxide collection."
   COMPUTERS AND AUTOMATION, August 1955, pg. 24, col. 1:  "Errors in
operation can be caused by any of several types of tape faults such as
'holes' and raised spots in the magnetic surface, or creases in the tape."
   I checked for patents from 1937-1960 and didn't find "chad" or "chadless."
 A computer search of patents shows "chad" starting in 1976.
   The best place to look is the National Bureau of Standards.  The NBS
National Applied Mathematics Laboratories had a (1) Computation Laboratory,
(2) Institute for Numerical Analysis, and (3) Machine Development Laboratory.
 There was also an Electronics Division, Electronics Computers Section.
   I have yet to check ABSTRACT AND INDEX COLLECTION, NATIONAL BUREAU OF
STANDARDS LIBRARY (Springfield, VA, 1980) compiled by Diane Cunningham.
There is also CATALOG OF ARTIFACTS ON DISPLAY IN THE NBS MUSEUM (Washington,
DC, 1977), H. L. Mason, editor.
   Surely, "chad" and "chadless" tape were discussed in some NBS standard?

--------------------------------------------------------
POPULAR MECHANICS (1947)

   POPULAR MECHANICS was a very popular magazine that's often overlooked.  It
had a section on electronics in each issue.  It had ads for everything from
the Merriam-Webster Dictionary to Charles Atlas.

February 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 103, col. 1--"All But Kitchen Sink."

March 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 47.  "Learn by Doing" is the motto of
Coyne Electrical School of Chicago.

March 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 171.  "What's new for your home"--"POTATO
CUTTER delivers shoestring potatoes in a continuous spiral ribbon about 1/4
inch square; Onions and other vetgetables also can be cut on the machine."
Same concept as "curly fries."

April 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 44, col. 2.  Ad for "Kilroy Was Here"
little red and white discs.  Great for parties.

April 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 166, col. 1, "Robot Baseball Pitcher."
Not yet called "pitching machine."

April 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 174, "Dinners Without Drudgery."
Describes the frozen dinners--not yet called tv dinners--of WIlliam L. Maxson.

May 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 303.  An ad for the "HI-BALLER SCOOTER" by
Commercial Metal Products, 2025 Fenkell, Detroit 3, Mich.  This is the exact
same thing as today's razor scooter!

June 1947, POPULAR MECHANICS, pg. 81, "Where are our new frontiers?" by
Charles F. Kettering, VP, General Motors.  ("New Frontier" before JFK--ed.)

   Lots of "make/build/do it yourself."


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Nov 28 09:49:59 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 04:49:59 -0500
Subject: Chad; Popular Mechanics (1947)
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.044959.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Recent evidence from the '50's helps fill in the void from M-W's e.q.
(earliest quote) 1947.  Thanks to Popik.  Any edb's (=electronic data
banks) besides Popik for this period.  The food stuff just doesn't
stop, it's fabulous.  Thanks Barry.

Regards,
David Barnhart

David K. Barnhart, Editor
The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly]
barnhart at highlands.com
www.highlands.com/Lexik

"Necessity obliges us to neologize."
Thomas Jefferson-August 16, 1813


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Tue Nov 28 15:55:37 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:55:37 EST
Subject: "Corpse corn"; and a Wall Street saying?
In-Reply-To: <199906230310.UAA20318@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.105537.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Reading "Bet-A-Million Gates: The Story of a Plunger", by robert
Irving Warshow, N. Y.: Greenburg, 1932, I find the following:

        [Referring to an attempt by Gates to corner the market in corn; he
began buying at 60 cents a bushel, and drove the price up to 90
cents, then, for prudent reasons, offered to sell out at 80 cents.]
About 20,000,000 bushels were settled for at 80 cents the bushel, and
the price . . . immediately tumbled to 65 cents, leaving Gates with
about 5,000,000 bushels to be disposed of at lower prices.  The
average prices paid by Gates were about 70 cents a bushel, so that on
the "corpse corn" left with him, he actually took a loss.  On the
entire transaction, however, his syndicate netted a profit of over
$2,000,000.  (p. 117)  [I don't find "corpse corn" in OED, or in
Dictionary of Americanisms]

        [Later, the author, having described Gates as a "trader", goes into
a rhapsody about traders:]  The old-clothes man is in a sense a good
trader if he can persuade you to part with the suit you need.  But
his imagination is limited to your back doorstep.  The successful
small dealer is a trader.  "It looks like snow, boys," said the
Finns, for they had snowshoes to sell.  [This last sentence sounds
like a proverbial way of saying that a salesman must start by
creating the market for what he's selling.  I haven't checked proverb
compilations.  Barry was collecting Wall Street saying, before he got
into food and drink.  Does he know it?]

GAT


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Tue Nov 28 16:42:08 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:42:08 -0500
Subject: language as SES marker
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.114208.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Tim Frazer <tcf at MACOMB.COM> writes:

>>>>>
You might start by making an honest admission that our choice of "standard"
in any language is almost always the result of one group's lock on political
and economic power.      [...]

Realize, too, that many changes in English are part of processes which have
been going on since the Norman Invasion of England radically changed
English.       [...]
When kids say "me and him did it," they continue that process of
simplification.  It seems to me to be much more logical than "standard"
English.  We need to teach language arts with an informed attitude.  That
helps.
<<<<<

I agree as to the historical facts of language change and the origins of
perceived dialect superiority. But we must also acknowledge the social fact
of present and future perceived dialect superiority. "It seems to me to be
much more logical" has been said by many people of many things, including
socialism, the single tax, Esperanto, Christianity, Basic English,
democracy, dictatorship, and decimal currency. The success record is mixed.
Apparently, the appearance of logic is not enough to convince the rest of
the world.

Kids and teenagers tend to ignore or deny the importance of adult and
national/world culture to their lives. If these students are to succeed in
life beyond their current immediate circles, they must learn the forms of
language expected outside them.

   Mark A. Mandel : Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Senior Linguist
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com
                     (speaking for myself)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 28 17:44:43 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:44:43 EST
Subject: Fwd: Chad Question
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.124443.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is the "chad" answer I got from NIST (formerly NBS).
--Barry Popik
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From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU  Tue Nov 28 19:46:29 2000
From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:46:29 -0600
Subject: language as SES marker
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.134629.0600.>

Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM wrote:

> (snip)
>
> Kids and teenagers tend to ignore or deny the importance of adult and
> national/world culture to their lives. If these students are to succeed in
> life beyond their current immediate circles, they must learn the forms of
> language expected outside them.

In time (when their rubber hits the road) they create their own form of standard, which of
course isn't very different from their parents' standard, just different enough so that
they won't appear to be guilty of opting out of the generation thing.
DMLance


From highbob at MINDSPRING.COM  Tue Nov 28 20:13:35 2000
From: highbob at MINDSPRING.COM (Bob Haas)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:13:35 -0500
Subject: Past-Subjunctive WAS in counter-to-fact IF clauses
In-Reply-To: <6d.bd2401c.274dd28c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.151335.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Good point, Ron, but (and I'm really just trying to figure out what would be
best here; it's not just my normal contentiousness) why does the actuality
of the roof being peeled off take precedent over the metaphoric fancy of the
sardine can analogy?  That's what would lead me to use WERE instead of WAS.
And wouldn't the WERE take its cue from the IF that almost immediately
precedes it?  Doesn't that determine the subjunctive mood of the verb to
follow?

bob

> From: RonButters at AOL.COM
> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 20:53:16 EST
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Past-Subjunctive WAS in counter-to-fact IF clauses
>
> It has been a long time since this thread died, but I am only just reading my
> e-mail from late October, and I'm wondering if there isn't another way
> looking at this.
>
> Isn't it the case that, in counter-to-fact if-clauses, the prescriptive rule
> allows the subjunctive BE?  An alternative second HAD BEEN might also be
> grammatically acceptable, but its repetitiousness is something to avoid if
> possible.
>
> Then, assuming that BE is correct, WAS, the past subjunctive of BE, is also
> preferable to WERE.
>
> In other words, the Brits got it right.
> --------------------------------------------
> Rudy <rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU> wrote, concerning the sentence
>
> "The roof of one carriage had been peeled off as if it was a
> sardine can."


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Nov 28 22:19:34 2000
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:19:34 EST
Subject: Past-Subjunctive WAS in counter-to-fact IF clauses
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.171934.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/28/2000 3:24:07 PM, highbob at MINDSPRING.COM writes:

<< Good point, Ron, but (and I'm really just trying to figure out what would
be
best here; it's not just my normal contentiousness) why does the actuality
of the roof being peeled off take precedent over the metaphoric fancy of the
sardine can analogy?  That's what would lead me to use WERE instead of WAS.
And wouldn't the WERE take its cue from the IF that almost immediately
precedes it?  Doesn't that determine the subjunctive mood of the verb to
follow? >>

The point is that WERE is the present subjunctive but WAS is the past
subjunctive. Since the time is past, I'd use the past subjunctive. Examples:

WHAT IF NIXON ACTUALLY WAS THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?
WHAT IF NADER ACTUALLY WERE THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?

My memory is that this is what the old-timey rule-books say.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Nov 29 00:53:14 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:53:14 -0800
Subject: Past-Subjunctive WAS in counter-to-fact IF clauses
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.165314.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ron butters:
 >The point is that WERE is the present subjunctive but WAS is the
 >past subjunctive. Since the time is past, I'd use the past
 >subjunctive. Examples:

 >WHAT IF NIXON ACTUALLY WAS THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?
 >WHAT IF NADER ACTUALLY WERE THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?

 >My memory is that this is what the old-timey rule-books say.

that's what fowler 1926 says.

it doesn't fit my judgments at all.  for me, the nixon sentence
is merely conditional, not specifically counterfactual; the
specifically counterfactual would be
  WHAT IF NIXON ACTUALLY HAD BEEN THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?

this is the system described in the big quirk et al. grammar.

everybody seems to agree that the nixon sentence with WERE (and
past reference) is out.  but there seem to be two different
schemes for the counterfactual in the past.  (plus the innovative,
and still non-standard, counterfactual with WOULD: WOULD HAVE BEEN.)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Nov 29 02:02:46 2000
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 20:02:46 -0600
Subject: chad etymology revisited
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.200246.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


        In his Nov. 20, 2000 message Douglas Wilson correctly draws
attention to Joseph Wright's _English Dialect Dictionary_ for insight
into the etymology of _chad_.  I would like to follow his lead but
select a different interpretation of the evidence presented in that
dictionary.

        The central piece of information is apparently _chat_ (with
the variant _chad_ in West Yorkshire and Derbyshire) in the meaning
"catkin." My dictionary tells me that a catkin is "a usually long
ament crowded with bracts." That might as well be written in a
foreign language, but what strikes me is the etymology given for
"catkin": "from its resemblance to a cat's tail."

        In other words, the starting semantic point is not something
that falls into a pile but something long and thin, something
protruding.  Hence, e.g. meaning "6: "a protruding of blackthorn,
etc. running into a field from the fence."

        Of particular interest is meaning #5: "a chip of wood, a
small twig or branch used for firewood." I would suggest that the
"small twig or branch used for firewood" has the primary meaning
(something long and thin, akin in shape to a catkin). And  "a chip of
wood" is the secondary meaning, developed from the wood to be used in
kindling a fire.

        This "chip of wood" is evidently the immediate ancestor of
_chad_ in its present, information-age usage.  So the ultimate
etymology of _chat/chad_ seems to be no more remote than the word for
"cat"--with the imagery coming not from the whole animal but just its
tail (thence" "twig"; thence "chip of wood," thence "a punched out
chip-like piece of paper."

        Once _chat/chad_ received its meaning "a chip of wood," this
new meaning was extended to other small objects:  "a piece of coal"
(meaning #8),
"a small potato of inferior quality" (meaning #7).

        I have already stumbled once in seeking the etymology of
_chad_. Is the present attempt perhaps more plausible?

------Gerald Cohen




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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 29 02:40:36 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:40:36 EST
Subject: Children's Menus (1922)
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.214036.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

     THE HOTEL INDUSTRY is a periodical comparable to THE HOTEL MONTHLY.  It
has some interesting food items and I've just started going through it.
     From THE HOTEL INDUSTRY, July 1922, pg. 11:

_Make the Menu Attractive_
(...) _"Oscar" Features Children's Menu at Waldorf_
(Photo of Oscar & friends with the caption: "The Children's Menu Introduced
by Oscar at the Waldorf Met with Instant Favor")
(Pg. 12, col. 2--ed.)
   Lately some of our best hotels have awakened to the fact that a bill of
fare suitable for children is a good thing to have and no less a culinary
authority than "Oscar of the Waldorf" has compiled such an attractive
children's menu, that the daily papers all over the country have commented
upon it, so unusual is it for anything to be done at attractive menu making,
especially for children.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 29 03:35:51 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:35:51 EST
Subject: Sloppy Joe, Doggie Bag in MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.223551.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE (established 1931) was published in Newark, NJ, and had such writers as Louis De Gouy.  It seemed vibrant in the late 1940s, when it did an extended story about National Sandwich Month (with no "hoagie" or "hero" or "sub" in sight), but deteriorated quickly.  The NYPL's last issue is from 1953.
   Affiliated publications that I might want to look through are:

THE CATERING MAGAZINE--For hotel, restaurant and all culinarians...  Official organ of the Helvetian Ass'n of North America, Inc.
SERVICE MAGAZINE--Official monthly of the Tuskegee Institute of Alabama.  The only Colored magazine of its kind.
RESTAURANT BUREAU'S NEWS LETTERS--Quick and timely information and service.  (No ads)


March 1947, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 5--(Cartoon ad for Duvernoy & Sons, Inc., Bakers, 633 West 44th St. NYC.  "Look..a Duvernoy Hot Cross Bun!"  Two men are following a beautiful woman.  One looks at the hot cross buns, while another looks at the woman's rear end.  "Bun" slang use at this time?--ed.)

May 1947, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 8, col. 1--YOU SLEEP LIKE A BABY AT THE BERKELEY.  (Ad for Berkeley Carteret on-the-Ocean-at-Asbury Park, NJ.  A photo shows a card picture of a sleeping baby and "i do not wish to be disturbed" that's used in the hotel--ed.)

July 1947, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 20, col. 1:
_They're Kind to Animals in Tacoma!_
_Tacoma Cafe Starts Unique Service For Patrons' Dogs_
   THE _New Yorker Cafe_ in Tacoma, Washington, has recently instituted a personalized service for its customers with a novel and original "_Snack-Sac_," a glacin lined, grease proof bag in which patrons may take home bones and other food scraps for their pets.  Patrons also find the "Snack-Sac" a handy container in which to take home excess portions of meat and pastry for themselves.
   This attractive "Snack-Sac" done in two colors shows an appealing and hungry dog saying "Dog-Gonit...I hope they don't forget my New Yorker Cafe 'Snack-Sac'."

August 1947, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 2--(An ad for E. F. Drew & Co.'s advanced scientific detergent shows its cartoon character called "Mr. Cleanliness," of possible use for "Mr. Clean"--ed.)

September 1948, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 12, col. 1--REMEMBER the days when a diner was--just a diner?  When you perched up on a hard stool and for a thin dime got a cup of coffee and a hamburger slopped at you by a greasy counter man?  And when nice ladies crossed to the other side of the street just to avoid the Romeos--and the smells?  Sure, you say, you remember.  In fact you can still think of a few places like that around town.  So what has that got to do with the price of beef steak? (...)  Wait a minute, you say.  Weren't we speaking of diners and sloppy Joes a minute ago?

October 1948, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR, pg. 10, col. 2--Chef _Barth_ indubitably knows his business, and has had extensive experience both here and abroad, "cheffing" in such celebrated places as the _Bristol_ in the Tyrolean Alps....

February 1949, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 10, col. 2--I know of one chef--or should I say "chef-ess." who tried the recipe out on the home range....

July 1950, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 3, col. 2--_Msg--or Ac'cent, or Zest, or Peking Powder_--has been extensively used in canned soups, frozen foods, and as a seasoning agent by hotels, restaurants and institutions, since its introduction into this country in 1934....

April 1951, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 8, col. 1--Greeted by _Dick Hey_ the new Catering Manager our attention was called to a French Proverb appearing on the daily menus as follows: _"A Meal Without Wine Is Like A Day Without Sunshine"_--And how true!
(A similar "day without sunshine" phrase was later used for Florida orange juice ads--ed.)

October 1951, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 12, col. 1--(Drawing of a chef holding a ladle in one hand, winking his eye, and giving the "OK" sign with the other hand--ed.)

December 1952, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 20--_Let's Glorify the Art of "Cheffing"_.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 29 05:00:24 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 00:00:24 EST
Subject: V & OK signs; Sandwiches; Onion Rings
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.000024.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

V & OK SIGNS (continued)

BETTERS HOMES AND GARDENS, pg. 97 (1952? I forgot to write in the date, which didn't make the copy)--An ad for V-8 shows Claudette Colbert, "soon to be appearing in "The Planter's Wife," giving the V-sign, for V-8 cocktail vegetable juices. She has the palm in rather than out--just a finger away from "the finger."

August 1949, AMERICAN HOME, pg. 47--An ad for LA FRANCE BLUING FLAKES has a downward "OK" sign with the caption "Perfect with soap or detergent."

--------------------------------------------------------
SANDWICHES

STINKO-BURGER--The recipe is on page 118, col. 2, BETTER HOMES AND GARDENS, July 1952.  It comes from 2-EE's Drive-in.  It's "a quarter pound of juicy broiled hamburger with _big_, powerfully fragrant onion slices, all tucked into a jumbo, buttered bun.

1 January 1955, SATURDAY EVENING POST--The great sandwich article cited by Merriam-Webster and others.

August 1955, HOLIDAY, pg. 61--"America's Sublime Snack" article mentions Reuben's restaurant, Guinea Hero, Submarine, Poor Boy, and Hoagie.  No etymological clues.

16 October 1956, LOOK, pg. 114--"The Great American Sandwich" article  has "Hero" and forgettable sandwich names such as "Walter Winchell" and "Soap-Opera Special."

--------------------------------------------------------
PBJ

   From RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, February 1933, pg. 77, menu in column 2:

PEANUT BUTTER, JELLY, LETTTUCE, TOMATO  20.

--------------------------------------------------------
BLT

July 1932, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 27, col. 1 menu--Crisp bacon, sliced tomato, lettuce, mayonnaise...30.

May 1933, RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, pg. 214, col. 2 menu--Bacon, Lettuce and Tomato 30.

September 1947, MERCHANT RESTAURATEUR MAGAZINE, pg. 19, col. 1--BACON, LETTUCE AND TOMATO.  (This is the large sandwich article, with many sandwiches given and Dagwood Bumstead mentioned--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
FRENCH ONION RINGS

   John Mariani has "French fried onion rings" from 1939.  I noticed "French Onion Rings" on both pages 412 and 413 in the previously cited Annex, Portland, Oregon, menu from RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, June 1936.


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 07:18:48 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 02:18:48 -0500
Subject: chad etymology revisited
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.021848.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gerald Cohen states:

The central piece of information is apparently _chat_ (with the variant
_chad_ in West Yorkshire and Derbyshire) in the meaning "catkin." My
dictionary tells me that a catkin is "a usually long ament crowded with
bracts." That might as well be written in a foreign language, but what
strikes me is the etymology given for "catkin": "from its resemblance to a
cat's tail."

In other words, the starting semantic point is not something that falls
into a pile but something long and thin, something protruding. Hence, e.g.
meaning "6: "a protruding of blackthorn, etc. running into a field from the
fence."

Of particular interest is meaning #5: "a chip of wood, a small twig or
branch used for firewood." I would suggest that the "small twig or branch
used for firewood" has the primary meaning (something long and thin, akin
in shape to a catkin). And "a chip of wood" is the secondary meaning,
developed from the wood to be used in kindling a fire.

This "chip of wood" is evidently the immediate ancestor of _chad_ in its
present, information-age usage. So the ultimate etymology of _chat/chad_
seems to be no more remote than the word for "cat"--with the imagery coming
not from the whole animal but just its tail (thence" "twig"; thence "chip
of wood," thence "a punched out chip-like piece of paper."

Once _chat/chad_ received its meaning "a chip of wood," this new meaning
was extended to other small objects ....

----------

I agree (tentatively/speculatively) with the general idea. I think the
original sense was "catkin", in French and in English: I am not sure
whether this comes from a likeness to the cat's tail or from a likeness to
a whole cat or kitten [cf. the distinct botanical "cat-tail"], but the
picture was "small [elongated] fluffy thing". This was generalized to
things which are like catkins: mostly small things, some of them elongated,
not necessarily fluffy. Perhaps the sense of elongation outlived the sense
of fluffiness (which was crucial to the original name "catkin" or
French/English "chat" I think), but eventually all that remained was
"small". By the time "chad" (probably) came to mean "punched paper chip" I
think it just meant "small item of which there are many" -- like wood chips
or (pieces of) gravel. The earliest chads (= paper chips) were probably not
(very much) elongated; I speculate that the original application was in
telegraphy punched tape or perhaps in perforation of paper in other
applications, such as postage stamps (apparently "chad" has been used in
connection with perforated postage stamps, but I don't know the chronology).

Alternative proposed derivations along the same lines would have "chad" <
"chaff" [alteration unexplained, but with a possible parallel in the EDD],
or "chad" < "chat(t)" = "louse" (another small numerous thing). One can
also picture "chad" < "shard", I suppose.

[There is plenty of documentation of "chip" as an exact synonym of "chad"
(modern sense, countable), and there is at least anecdotal evidence of
"chit" as a third alternative -- possibly a conflation of "chip" with
"chat"/"chad", although "chit" also exists with senses somewhat parallel to
those of "chat" (and possibly with a similar "cat"/"kitten" origin).]

["Chat" = "louse" likely comes from "chattel" = "possessions"/"livestock"
(cf. "cattle"), and not from "cat", I think. Another sense of "chat"
(obsolete, OED), = "provisions", probably has the "chattel" origin too, I
think.]

"Chat" = "[make] conversation" and "chad"/"chat" = "bird" (applied to
various species) probably come from another origin, "chatter". "Chat" =
"vulva"/"female pudenda" is transparently from French, originally = "cat"
(but here the "fluffy"/"furry" sense is preserved, I think). There is also
"chad" = "shad" (of obscure ultimate origin itself). I doubt these have any
application here.

A perhaps far-fetched possibility (but not as ridiculous as the "Mr.
Chadless" story IMHO): the adjective "chatty" once meant "dirty" (original
meaning: "lousy") (e.g., Farmer and Henley, ca. 1900). The teletype room
for example might have been referred to as "chatty" = "dirty"/"dusty"/"full
of chaff" -- thus "chad" = "dust-like or chaff-like paper residues".
["Chatty" will be indistinguishable from "chaddy" in some speech, I think.]

An even farther-fetched etymology: from St. Chad. The OED and other sources
give "chad-pennies" and "chad-farthings" = "[small coin] contributions for
upkeep of St. Chad's Cathedral [Lichfield]". Where did one deposit these
small coins? In the "chad-box" at the cathedral, I guess. The waste
receptacle on an early teletype device might have resembled this box, and
the contents (small discs) might have resembled the coins .... (^_^) [<--
NB: The smiley-face indicates that I don't intend this part entirely
seriously.]

Finally, for those who like the "Mr. Chadless" etymology, I offer (in
addition to a fine bridge for sale) an alternative back-formation from
"Chadband" (a much more common name than "Chadless"!) (a Dickens character
name, used occasionally as a common noun ["a canting unctuous hypocrite" --
OED]): if the paper teletype tape (invented by a certain Mr. Chadband, no
doubt) is a "chad band", then the paper fragments must be .... (^_^) (^_^)

I tentatively prefer a "small object" derivation myself, much like the one
presented by Gerald Cohen above.

-- Doug Wilson


From tonyglaser at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Nov 29 01:28:41 2000
From: tonyglaser at MINDSPRING.COM (Tony Glaser)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 20:28:41 -0500
Subject: Blessed
In-Reply-To: <200011290053.QAA27836@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <TUE.28.NOV.2000.202841.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm new to this list, and am not a professional in the area of
dialects or linguistics, just an interested layman, so please forgive
me if I'm intruding or if my question is inappropriate.

I lived in Montserrat in the Eastern Caribbean for many years, and
occasionally heard people (English/Montserrat creole speakers) use
the word "blessed" to mean "injured" - derived from the French
"bless?" (although quite why it should appear in the English-speaking
Caribbean I'm not sure).

A couple of years ago, here in Charleston, SC, I was speaking to a
middle-aged black lady (a patient of mine - I'm a family doctor) and
asked her about a bump on her knee. "Oh", she said, "I got blessed".
I asked her what she said, not sure if I had heard it correctly; and
she looked rather embarrassed and tried to change the subject, but
eventually admitted that that was what she had said, and that it
meant she had got injured in a minor way. I asked where it came from
and if other people used the word, but she didn't have any
information to offer. She was not a classic rural/Sea Island
Gullah/Geechee speaker (and please don't ask me what the difference
between the two!), although I think she was from the relatively
suburban parts of James Island or possibly Johns Island.

I've looked in Gullah dictionaries and asked various people about
this, but can find no reference at all to the use of the word
"blessed" in this way.

I would be interested in any input!

Tony Glaser


From RFelton at ISA.ORG  Wed Nov 29 13:14:32 2000
From: RFelton at ISA.ORG (Felton, Robert)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:14:32 -0500
Subject: flogged that one ...
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.081432.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's one I've never heard, and I thought it might interest some of you.
Regarding a much-discussed editorial topic hereabouts, a colleague said we'd
"... flogged that one like a rented mule."  Ouch!

Robert M. Felton, P.E.
Technical Editor, InTech Magazine
ISA - The Instrumentation, Systems, and Automation Society
67 Alexander Drive
Research Triangle Park, NC 27709

E-Mail: rfelton at isa.org
Phone: (919) 990-9223
Fax: (919) 549-8288


From drew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Wed Nov 29 13:39:29 2000
From: drew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 08:39:29 -0500
Subject: flogged that one ...
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.083929.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Felton, Robert" wrote:
>
> Here's one I've never heard, and I thought it might interest some of you.
> Regarding a much-discussed editorial topic hereabouts, a colleague said we'd
> "... flogged that one like a rented mule."  Ouch!

An acquaintance from Alabama uses the phrase "beat it like a red-haired
stepchild" in a similar context (also in the context of a metaphorical
punitive beating).

Drew.Danielson at cmu.edu


From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Wed Nov 29 13:28:39 2000
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:28:39 +0100
Subject: Blessed
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.142839.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> A couple of years ago, here in Charleston, SC, I was speaking to a
> middle-aged black lady (a patient of mine - I'm a family doctor) and
> asked her about a bump on her knee. "Oh", she said, "I got blessed".
> I asked her what she said, not sure if I had heard it correctly; and
> she looked rather embarrassed and tried to change the subject, but
> eventually admitted that that was what she had said, and that it
> meant she had got injured in a minor way. I asked where it came from
> and if other people used the word, but she didn't have any
> information to offer.
> Tony Glaser

DARE does not have an entry for blessed, though it does have one for
blessing or blessing-out in the sense of scolding or tongue-lashing. You've
probably looked at the OED entry, but just in case you haven't here it is:

??  bless, v.2 Obs. Also 4??6 blyss(e, bliss.
[a. F. blesse-r:???OF. blecier to injure, wound: cf. bleche. Often associated
with bless v.1, either humorously or in ignorance. (The sense of the second
quotation is doubtful: cf. bless v.3)]
To wound, hurt; to beat, thrash, drub.
[c1325 Coer de L. 546 Whenne I hym had a strok i-fet, And wolde have blyssyd
hym bet.
c1350 Will. Palerne 1192 [He] blessed so wi?? his bri_t bront _ aboute in
eche side ??at, what rink so he rau_t _ he ros neuer after.]
1526 Skelton Magnyf. 1641, I have hym coryed, beten and blyst.
1545 R. Ascham Toxoph. (Arb.) 145 As thoughe they woulde tourne about and
blysse all the feelde.
1575 J. Still Gamm. Gurton iii. iii, Tarry, thou knave..I shall make these
hands bless thee.
1577 Hellowes Gueuara???s Fam. Ep. 237 When he did leuell to shoote, he
blessed himselfe with his peece, and killed them with the pellat.
1612 Shelton Quix. I. iii. 173 That of the Battle..when they bless???d your
Worship???s Cheek Teeth.

I'm curious to see a proper answer to your question.

Paul
_________________________________________
Paul Frank
English translation from German, French,
Chinese, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese
Busines, Finance and Corporate Law
Snailmail: 74500 Thollon-les-Memises, France
PaulFrank at post.harvard.edu | Fax +1 509-752-9444


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 14:34:01 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:34:01 -0500
Subject: Blessed
In-Reply-To: <003801c05a08$7dd62bc0$7af5f9c1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.093401.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > ... "Oh", she said, "I got blessed".
> > ... it meant she had got injured in a minor way. ...

>... the OED entry ...
>
>??  bless, v.2 Obs. ...

>To wound, hurt; to beat, thrash, drub. ...

"Bless" in this sense is an old ENGLISH word (although right now I find it
only in the OED), so maybe it's no mystery that it occurs in the Anglophone
US and Caribbean. Apparently it's not quite as obsolete as the OED folks
think/thought. Or conceivably it was reintroduced from French (Montserrat
for example has had some French contact: apparently the island was even
taken [and held briefly] by the French three times in the 17th-18th centuries).

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 14:55:46 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:55:46 -0500
Subject: flogged that one ...
In-Reply-To: <003F1E4A122FD41186A50008C7B1AE520101CE9E@ISACS01>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.095546.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Here's one I've never heard, and I thought it might interest some of you.
>Regarding a much-discussed editorial topic hereabouts, a colleague said we'd
>"... flogged that one like a rented mule."

I'm familiar with "We've beaten/flogged [the subject] to death." Also
"We've beaten [the subject] into the ground." All meaning "We've discussed
[the subject] excessively."

I can't find any of these in any of my dictionaries right now. [I don't
have DARE or HDAS; I have a superstition about buying defective or
incomplete books.]

The OED shows the verb "beat" = "discuss" ("obsolete" [?]), and the clearly
related adjective "beaten" = "trite"/"worn".

A possibly related expression (I can't find this one in the dictionaries
either): "flog [a job/task]" = "devote excessive attention/time/effort to
[a job/task]". I've heard/used this in the sense of stretching out a
project (by doing superfluous work rather than by idling), perhaps to avoid
a less pleasant subsequent project, or to ward off a layoff, or to increase
income (if paid by the hour).

-- Doug Wilson


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Wed Nov 29 16:03:01 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:03:01 EST
Subject: 32.20
In-Reply-To: <199906230310.UAA20318@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.110301.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        A message to another list asks the following question: August
Wilson's _ The Piano Lesson _ is a play that I use in several
classes, but it contains [a line] that continue[s] to puzzle me and I
am hoping that you can help me understand them.  Boy Willie
says to Berneice, "It's got to come better than this
thirty-two-twenty."  What does "thirty-two-twenty" mean? [II:v]
(This may refer to some type of weapon, but there's no other
reference in the play to Boy Willie's carrying one.)

        I have replied, noting the lyrics to Robert Johnson's "32.20 Blues",
where it refers to a gun of some sort, but noting also that I did not
find the word in the OED, DAE, or DAmer.  Does anyone know it?  Is
there another meaning that's more appropriate?

GAT


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Wed Nov 29 17:00:14 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:00:14 +0100
Subject: Woonerf
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.180014.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

I also subscribe to several urban/community planning email lists (low traffic, thankfully), and came across the word "woonerf." The Dutch word is wide-spread in that field.

http://www.apbp.org/velophoto/sld022.htm

"In the 1970s the Dutch pioneered the 'living street' or 'living yard' called the Woonerf. These were residential streets where vehicle traffic and speeds were drastically reduced and priority was returned to the people that lived in the street. The same concept has been applied to community shopping areas, the Winkelerf."

Also found at:

http://www.arbeer.demon.co.uk/soc-asp/housing/res5.htm
http://www.etsc.be/new_updoct98.htm
http://www.stockport.gov.uk/newsmbc/Divisions/Chief_Executives/Policy_Planning/Health/Himp2/Appendix2.htm
http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~cpw/abstracts/protrans.html#%2014


From Amcolph at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 29 17:01:12 2000
From: Amcolph at AOL.COM (Ray Ott)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:01:12 EST
Subject: 32.20
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.120112.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

the 32-20 cartidge was designed for the model 1873 Winchester lever action
rifle.  Colt subsequently produced a single action revolver which chambered
this cartridge, and was fairly popular--probably this is the gun alluded,
which would by then have been obsolete and derisible.  The 32 is the caliber
(.32" dia.) and the 20 is the number of grains of black powder in the
cartridge.

Ray Ott


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 17:07:25 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:07:25 -0500
Subject: 32.20
In-Reply-To: <12C61917179@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.120725.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Apparently ".32-20" is a cartridge designation:

http://www.earp.com/32.html

http://community.webshots.com/photo/1240679/1240821

http://community.webshots.com/photo/1240679/1247196

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt3220.htm

I suppose in the blues songs it means a pistol appropriate for this cartridge.

-- Doug Wilson


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Wed Nov 29 17:13:34 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:13:34 +0000
Subject: chad is like fish...
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.171334.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> We've seen countable chad ('pregnant chads'), mass chad ('lots of
> chad'), and now zero-morpheme plural chad, as indicated by the verb
> agreement in the last sentence below.
>
>
> More than 2 million ballots uncounted nationwide
>
> By David Ho
>
> Nov. 28, 2000 | WASHINGTON (AP)
>
> [paragraphs deleted]
> Gore supporters say the problem in Florida largely can be traced to
> paper punch-card ballots, which have added "chad," dimpled,
> swinging, pregnant and otherwise, to the national lexicon. Chad are
> the tiny pieces of paper that pop out of a ballot when a voter
> chooses a candidate.
>
>
> Dr M Lynne Murphy
> Lecturer in Linguistics
> School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
> University of Sussex
> Brighton BN1 9QH
> UK
>
> phone +44-(0)1273-678844
> fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 17:34:55 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:34:55 -0500
Subject: chad is like fish...
In-Reply-To: <E141Anf-0002FW-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.123455.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 05:13 PM 11/29/00 +0000, you wrote:
> > We've seen countable chad ('pregnant chads'), mass chad ('lots of
> > chad'), and now zero-morpheme plural chad, as indicated by the verb
> > agreement in the last sentence below.
> >
> >... Chad are
> > the tiny pieces of paper that pop out of a ballot when a voter
> > chooses a candidate.

AFAIK, this is a recent error. I've not seen any authoritative or informed
reference (pre-election) using "chad" as a true plural (e.g., "two chad").

Actually, "chad" seems to resemble "hair": "one hair", "two hairs", "a pile
of hair".

Some poorly-informed (or misquoted?) 'experts' on the Web and in the media
recently have asserted that "chad" is like "sheep" ("one sheep", "two
sheep"): this seems to arise from a confusion between a plural and a "mass
noun". Some also have stated confidently (absolutely falsely, of course)
that "chad" cannot be used as a countable noun at all.

When the press gets in a hurry, any loud voice will do.

-- Doug Wilson


From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov 29 17:35:23 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:35:23 -0500
Subject: a horse a piece
In-Reply-To: <E140VHZ-0000lw-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.123523.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:53 PM 11/27/00 +0000, you wrote:
> > I am interested in phrases that signify (usually qualitative) similarity
> > or equality.  Examples are "a horse a piece", "six of one, half dozen of
> > the other", or "the same difference".  I have an (obvious) feeling that
> > "a horse a piece" has its origins somewhere in equestrian culture, but
> > as a newbie to dialectology, I have not been able to confirm or trace it
> > with the resources at my disposal.
>
>I've never heard 'a horse a piece', but I've been thinking about another
>item that might fit into this set:  "It's all the same to me."  The
>interesting thing about this and "same difference" (well, interesting to
>me at least) is that while the speaker is claiming that the things are the
>same, they are acknowledging that they are objectively different.  I've
>been interested in these phrases for what they indicate about people's
>attitudes toward the synonymy of expressions.  (For example, you might
>tell me that the phrases in this set mean different things, but it's all
>the same to me.)
>
>Lynne

Ditto for "all one"--sounds like a mass noun created out of countables, but
it's really about differences that aren't so different:  "It's all one to
me."  (Can you say "They're all one/all the same to me"?)


_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 29 18:02:10 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:02:10 EST
Subject: Smoothie; Chad
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.130210.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SMOOTHIE

   BETTER HOMES & GARDENS has a page of recipes listed in the issue (like GOURMET has) and I've copied them.  I noticed this in August 1952, pg. 67, col. 3:

   _Beverages_
(...)
Peach Smoothie...86

   This could be our first "smoothie" that actually is one.  Frozen yogurt smoothies were popular from 1977--25 years later!

--------------------------------------------------------
CHAD

   A good place to look is the EDINBURGH JOURNAL OF SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY AND PHOTOGRAPHIC ART.  See the www.nypl.org entry.  If "chad" is from Scotland, the term should be in there somewhere.  Unfortunately, the NYPL has the journal up to 1942 only, although the catalog entry states 1950.
   More "chad" from NIST I thought was attached but will be sent separately.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Nov 29 18:02:48 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:02:48 EST
Subject: Fwd: Chad Info
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.130248.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FYI--Barry Popik
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From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Nov 29 18:06:59 2000
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:06:59 -0500
Subject: Smoothie; Chad
In-Reply-To: <74.557ee1e.27569ea3@aol.com>; from Bapopik@AOL.COM on Wed,
 Nov 29, 2000 at 01:02:10PM -0500
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.130659.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>    BETTER HOMES & GARDENS has a page of recipes listed in the issue (like GOURMET has) and I've copied them.  I noticed this in August 1952, pg. 67, col. 3:
>
>    _Beverages_
> (...)
> Peach Smoothie...86

Terrific! Was there a recipe attached to help determine what this actually was?

Jesse Sheidlower


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Nov 29 18:11:17 2000
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:11:17 -0500
Subject: "Don't block the box"
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.131117.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ADS listers

The expression "Don't block the box" is used in New York City as a warning to motorists to avoid entering a busy intersection that they cannot get through before the light changes to red.  The city warns, on signs and on the radio, that there will be severe penalties if one is ticketed for this.  At some intersections, "the box" is marked off with white lines painted in that area.  The idea is to prevent gridlock, a particular problem in NYC, esp. during the holiday season.

Is this expression used in other US cities?  Is "the box" in the sense of 'intersection' used in expressions aside from this context?

Thanks in advance for any input,

Frank Abate
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 29 05:22:20 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:22:20 +0800
Subject: chad is like fish...
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001129121949.00aa5250@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.132220.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:34 PM -0500 11/29/00, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>At 05:13 PM 11/29/00 +0000, you wrote:
>>  > We've seen countable chad ('pregnant chads'), mass chad ('lots of
>>>  chad'), and now zero-morpheme plural chad, as indicated by the verb
>>>  agreement in the last sentence below.
>>>
>>>... Chad are
>>>  the tiny pieces of paper that pop out of a ballot when a voter
>>>  chooses a candidate.
>
>AFAIK, this is a recent error. I've not seen any authoritative or informed
>reference (pre-election) using "chad" as a true plural (e.g., "two chad").
>
>Actually, "chad" seems to resemble "hair": "one hair", "two hairs", "a pile
>of hair".
>
>Some poorly-informed (or misquoted?) 'experts' on the Web and in the media
>recently have asserted that "chad" is like "sheep" ("one sheep", "two
>sheep"): this seems to arise from a confusion between a plural and a "mass
>noun". Some also have stated confidently (absolutely falsely, of course)
>that "chad" cannot be used as a countable noun at all.
>
Wasn't that a Dr. Seuss book?
"One Chad, Two Chad, Red Chad, Blue Chad"
--where "red" and "blue", as you'll recall, designate Republican and
Democratic on the network electoral maps.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 29 05:29:56 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:29:56 +0800
Subject: chad is like fish...
In-Reply-To: <E141Anf-0002FW-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.132956.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

edible too.  I just got this e-come-on:
=========
EAT A CHAD? You've heard about Pregnant Chad, Dimpled Chad,
Dented Chad and people even EATING Chad. Now, you can own 6
AUTHENTIC FLORIDA PUNCH-OUT BALLOT CARDS and a snack bag of
those tasty "Chad" for only $9.95
http://www.1000freethings.com/ballots CLICK FOR DETAILS
=========
Note the 'mass plural' ("those tasty 'Chad'").  But if you go to the
site offering to sell you these high-fiber, low-fat goodies, you'll
see they're sold as mass items ("pieces of chad") and plurals
("election chads"), but not as 'mass plurals'.  Maybe you have to pay
extra for that.

larry


From groberts at ANSWERLOGIC.COM  Wed Nov 29 18:19:47 2000
From: groberts at ANSWERLOGIC.COM (Greg Roberts)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:19:47 -0500
Subject: "Don't block the box"
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.131947.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Similar signs are in Washington, DC.  From my own experience, the expression
is used solely in the context described.

Greg Roberts

<Frank Abate>
The expression "Don't block the box" is used in New York City as a warning
to motorists to avoid entering a busy intersection that they cannot get
through before the light changes to red.  The city warns, on signs and on
the radio, that there will be severe penalties if one is ticketed for this.
At some intersections, "the box" is marked off with white lines painted in
that area.  The idea is to prevent gridlock, a particular problem in NYC,
esp. during the holiday season.

Is this expression used in other US cities?  Is "the box" in the sense of
'intersection' used in expressions aside from this context?
</Frank Abate>


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From casnow at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Wed Nov 29 18:24:14 2000
From: casnow at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Carol Snow)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 10:24:14 -0800
Subject: "Don't block the box"
In-Reply-To: <001701c05a2f$c4ff43c0$9b01a8c0@fabate>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.102414.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The expression, the intent, (and to some extent the white lines) are
used identically in San Francisco, though I believe this is a
statewide phenomenon.


>ADS listers
>
>The expression "Don't block the box" is used in New York City as a
>warning to motorists to avoid entering a busy intersection that they
>cannot get through before the light changes to red.  The city warns,
>on signs and on the radio, that there will be severe penalties if
>one is ticketed for this.  At some intersections, "the box" is
>marked off with white lines painted in that area.  The idea is to
>prevent gridlock, a particular problem in NYC, esp. during the
>holiday season.
>
>Is this expression used in other US cities?  Is "the box" in the
>sense of 'intersection' used in expressions aside from this context?
>
>Thanks in advance for any input,
>
>Frank Abate

--

-----------------------
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Student Affairs Officer:  CogSci/EnvSci
349 Campbell Hall/510-642-2628
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drop-in advising hrs.: 9:30-12  & 1-4 daily

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From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 18:34:19 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:34:19 -0500
Subject: chad is like fish...
In-Reply-To: <p04320403b64a426f2e6d@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.133419.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Wasn't that a Dr. Seuss book?
>"One Chad, Two Chad, Red Chad, Blue Chad"

That was "shad", I think.

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 18:42:28 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:42:28 -0500
Subject: chad is like fish...
In-Reply-To: <p04320404b64a43d78316@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.134228.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>edible too.  I just got this e-come-on:
>=========
>EAT A CHAD? You've heard about Pregnant Chad, Dimpled Chad,
>Dented Chad and people even EATING Chad. Now, you can own 6
>AUTHENTIC FLORIDA PUNCH-OUT BALLOT CARDS and a snack bag of
>those tasty "Chad" for only $9.95 ...

Chadbandism during the campaigns.

Chadbanditry at election time.

And now every swinging chad is jumping on the chadbandwagon.

-- Doug Wilson


From derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Nov 29 18:50:24 2000
From: derrickchapman at MINDSPRING.COM (Derrick Chapman)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:50:24 -0500
Subject: Quoz!
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.135024.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Other than the info given in Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, is
there anything more known regarding the "Quoz!" catchphrase of Victorian
England?


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Wed Nov 29 18:49:52 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:49:52 -0500
Subject: "Don't block the box"
In-Reply-To: <001701c05a2f$c4ff43c0$9b01a8c0@fabate>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.134952.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Frank Abate wrote:

> Is this expression used in other US cities?  Is "the box" in the sense
> of 'intersection' used in expressions aside from this context?

In Boston, not currently; but in recent weeks, there have been letters to
the editor of the Boston Globe exhorting Boston to adopt the 'don't block
the box' rules of New York City, to help keep traffic flowing
here. Lord knows we can use all the help we can get.

So, yes, I've seen it, but in a New York City context. Hopefully it will
get adopted here.

--- Steve K.


From stevek at SHORE.NET  Wed Nov 29 18:52:57 2000
From: stevek at SHORE.NET (Steve K.)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:52:57 -0500
Subject: chad is like fish...
In-Reply-To: <p04320404b64a43d78316@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.135257.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And more:

In today's Boston Globe, last paragraph of "Big Dig finance plan
likely to get US nod":

--Natsios said project officials spent hours going over the new plan with
federal officials, who in the end required no changes. ''They found no
chads in our plan,'' he said.--

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/334/metro/Big_Dig_finance_plan_likely_to_get_US_nod+.shtml


--- Steve K.


From jeclapp at WANS.NET  Wed Nov 29 19:12:18 2000
From: jeclapp at WANS.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:12:18 -0500
Subject: Past-Subjunctive WAS in counter-to-fact IF clauses
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.141218.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold Zwicky wrote:
>
> ron butters:
>  >The point is that WERE is the present subjunctive but WAS is the
>  >past subjunctive. Since the time is past, I'd use the past
>  >subjunctive. Examples:
>
>  >WHAT IF NIXON ACTUALLY WAS THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?
>  >WHAT IF NADER ACTUALLY WERE THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?
>
>  >My memory is that this is what the old-timey rule-books say.
>
> that's what fowler 1926 says.

I don't see that.  Fowler's 1926 entry on "Subjunctives" is not easy
reading, so I could be missing something--in which case I hope you will
point out and explicate the relevant passage--but I just don't see
anything in there about the appropriate verb form for referring to
hypothetical circumstances contrary to fact in the past.  Fowler is
mainly concerned with the misguided use of "were" instead of the
indicative "was" in straightforward conditionals (referring to past
circumstances that might be true)--a product of confusion "possible only
in an age to which the grammar of the subjunctive is not natural but
artificial."  As an example of such inappropriate use of "were" he
gives:  "If this _were_ so, it was in self-defence (sense, _was_)."

> it doesn't fit my judgments at all.  for me, the nixon sentence
> is merely conditional, not specifically counterfactual...

Fowler would concur.

> the specifically counterfactual would be
>   WHAT IF NIXON ACTUALLY HAD BEEN THE REAL WINNER OF THE ELECTION?
>
> this is the system described in the big quirk et al. grammar.

Or to construct perhaps a clearer example, we would say

     "I don't know where he was at the time, but if he _was_ at home
     then he could not have been involved in the brawl in the bar."

But

     "Unfortunately, he was in the bar; if he _had been_ at home he
     could not have been involved in the brawl."

Fowler doesn't say what verb he would use for the underscored phrase in
the second sentence, but in various ways he seems to rule out both "was"
and "were," which seems to leave "had been" as the only possibility.  So
I think he agrees with you (and Quirk) in all respects.

>
> everybody seems to agree that the nixon sentence with WERE (and
> past reference) is out.  but there seem to be two different
> schemes for the counterfactual in the past.  (plus the innovative,
> and still non-standard, counterfactual with WOULD: WOULD HAVE BEEN.)

Well, among you, me, Fowler, Quirk, and the bamboo tree, I only see one
scheme for the counterfactual past: "had been."

I do note that the OED classifies "were" as "pa. subj." (entry for "be,"
def. 7).  But that appears to be more a classification of the *form* of
the word than of its usage; the OED's examples for this "past
subjunctive" include such clearly present-sense uses as "Would I were
there!"  Cf. this citation (in def. 8) from Richard III (1483), included
to illustrate the point that "the common literary form [for the past
participle] in 14-15th c. was 'be', before the general acceptance of the
northern 'ben, bene'," but incidentally illustrating how English deals
with a past circumstance contrary to fact:  "As...if this Act had not be
made."

James E. Clapp


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Wed Nov 29 19:11:56 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:11:56 +0100
Subject: chad is like fish...
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.201156.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

I've hesitated to post this, but I would just like to point out, deep down near the
end of the for-what-it's-worth column, that the movie "Charlie's Angels" has Tom
Green in the character of "Chad." In two scenes in the movie, he quizzes Drew Barrymore's
character about her mysterious (secret agent) behavior when she leaves suddenly.

He questions her with something like, "Was it The Chad? It was The Chad, wasn't it?"


I'm not claiming anything, just noting that his curious third-person usage of his
own name in a popular movie comes coincidentally during our chad days of November. The
French do that, with the article+name (La Whoever), though I can't think of any
examples right now.


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Nov 29 19:14:58 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 14:14:58 -0500
Subject: Quoz!
In-Reply-To: <NEBBIIIFELLOODMDIMIIGEGLCKAA.derrickchapman@mindspring.com >
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.141458.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is an entry in the OED, and there's one in Farmer and Henley.

Apparently a variant/alteration of "quiz", meaning an odd-looking person or
thing; also used as a nonspecific interjection; apparently popular in the
1790's.

Partridge likens this interjection to the mid-20th-century "sez you".

-- Doug Wilson


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 29 19:25:15 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:25:15 -0600
Subject: Smoothie; Chad
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.132515.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>SMOOTHIE
>
>    BETTER HOMES & GARDENS has a page of recipes listed in the issue (like
>GOURMET has) and I've copied them.  I noticed this in August 1952, pg. 67,
>col. 3:
>
>    _Beverages_
>(...)
>Peach Smoothie...86
>
>    This could be our first "smoothie" that actually is one.  Frozen yogurt
>smoothies were popular from 1977--25 years later!

As I recall (and here memory might be playing tricks), it was the
convienence store chain 7-11 that advertised smoothies, and sent the word
into general circulation. I do remember one of their TV ad campaigns where
they had an actor who greatly reminds me of "Larry" on the Letterman show,
who'd give the 'Oh thank Heaven for 7-11" slogan, tho' they were advertising
smoothies before then. This would have been the mid 70s I think.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Wed Nov 29 19:31:24 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:31:24 +0000
Subject: Quoz!
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.193124.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Other than the info given in Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, is
> there anything more known regarding the "Quoz!" catchphrase of Victorian
> England?
>

Well, I can tell you it's not a legal Scrabble word in England.  Too bad!!

Lynne


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Nov 29 20:30:27 2000
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:30:27 -0500
Subject: teacher's query
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.153027.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My son's 5th grade teacher and some of her students have asked me about
the preferability of the pronunciations for _detail_, n., especially
the stress.  Some of the kids noticed it in the news telecast last
night.

MW3   de'tail   'de tail
RU2   de'tail    'de tail
WBD  de'tail    'de tail     (See usage note below)

Pronunciation of the noun is devided: de'tail, 'de tail.  The first is
older; the second especially common in situations where the word is
used a great deal (army life, architecture, and other specialized
uses).   ...

Kenyon & Knott  'de tail   de'tail
Thorndike-Barnhart Comprehensive Desk   de'tail   'de tail   (See usage
note below)

The formal pronunciation is de'tail; informal usage is divided but the
pronunciation is likely to be 'de tail.

Is there a preference?  Also is the vowel in the first syllable i or ee?

Thanks
David Barnhart


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 29 21:53:42 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 15:53:42 -0600
Subject: teacher's query
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.155342.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For what it's worth, it follows the pattern of 'concert' in my speech. The
noun is stressed on the first syllable (DEE-tail), the verb on the second
(duh-TAIL). As I think about it, actually, the noun can go either way.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Nov 29 22:04:31 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:04:31 -0600
Subject: Smoothie/Slurpie
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.160431.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I wrote:
>As I recall (and here memory might be playing tricks), it was the
>convienence store chain 7-11 that advertised smoothies, and sent the word
>into general circulation.

My memory was playing tricks. It still might, too. But the 7-11 thing, is
and remains a Slurpie.

Apologies.
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From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU  Wed Nov 29 22:19:43 2000
From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 17:19:43 -0500
Subject: teacher's query
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.171943.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:53 PM 11/29/00 -0600, you wrote:
>For what it's worth, it follows the pattern of 'concert' in my speech. The
>noun is stressed on the first syllable (DEE-tail), the verb on the second
>(duh-TAIL). As I think about it, actually, the noun can go either way.
>___________________________________________________________________________
>__________
>Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

A similar set is AD-dress/ad-DRESS.  The verb (for me) is always ad-DRESS,
but the noun can go either way; prosody of the sentence usually dictates
which way I go:  What's your AD-dress?  Give me your
name and ad-DRESS.

I think the formal/informal distinction is less common, on "detail" too
(pace the dictionary).  But on the vowel distinction, I assume David is
thinking of schwa (or maybe lax /I/) vs. tense /i/ ?

_____________________________________________
Beverly Olson Flanigan         Department of Linguistics
Ohio University                     Athens, OH  45701
Ph.: (740) 593-4568              Fax: (740) 593-2967
http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Nov 30 00:03:07 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:03:07 -0800
Subject: Past-Subjunctive WAS in counter-to-fact IF clauses
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.160307.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

james e. clapp:
 >Fowler's 1926 entry on "Subjunctives" is not easy reading, so I
 >could be missing something--in which case I hope you will point out
 >and explicate the relevant passage--but I just don't see anything in
 >there about the appropriate verb form for referring to hypothetical
 >circumstances contrary to fact in the past.

i see that i read fowler too hastily (it does takes some considerable
care to understand the passage in question).  disregard my previous
comment on this topic.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Nov 30 00:46:15 2000
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:46:15 -0800
Subject: chad is like fish...
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.164615.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

douglas wilson:
 [quotation provided by lynne murphy:]
 >> >... Chad are
 >> > the tiny pieces of paper that pop out of a ballot when a voter
 >> > chooses a candidate.

 >AFAIK, this is a recent error. I've not seen any authoritative or
 >informed reference (pre-election) using "chad" as a true plural
 >(e.g., "two chad").

i don't have any pre-election citations either.  but i suspect that
this usage is, for some people, now their normal one (even if it
does diverge from earlier usages).  unmarked-plural "chad" can
easily arise from the very many situations in which "chad" could be
understood as either a (singular) mass noun *or* as an unmarked-plural
count noun: "The chad just seemed to pile up"; "We noticed a lot of
chad" etc.  and an unmarked-plural count noun is not such an odd
hypothesis, since a fair number of unmarked-plural count nouns have
marked-plural alternatives ("reindeer" and "reindeers", for instance),
so that someone who hears plural "chads" might well think it's just
a variant of plural "chad".

the point is people will hear idiolects with count CHAD only,
idiolects with mass CHAD only, and idiolects with both usages.  from
this input it is possible to come to an analysis of CHAD as an
unmarked-plural count noun.  (this requires not hearing some
counterexamples - like "Lots of chad is caught in the machine" - or
not appreciating their significance, or simply disregarding them on
the grounds that, after all, folks don't all talk the same.)  From
the point of view of the earlier usages, this usage is an "error",
in the sense that it's an innovation, but it's not necessarily a
slip of the tongue or a mangled form resulting from some hare-brained
consciously formulated hypothesis.

 >Actually, "chad" seems to resemble "hair": "one hair", "two hairs",
 >"a pile of hair".

i usually use E-MAIL/EMAIL as a parallel for CHAD used both as a
(marked-plural) count noun and as a mass noun.  so far as i know, if
you have count uses of CHAD, you also have mass uses, but not vice
versa.  but almost all english speakers have both a mass noun HAIR and
a count noun HAIR, period.  it's also true, i think, that the mass
and count E-MAIL and CHAD don't differ in their usage in any way
except their mass vs. count syntax, but that mass and count HAIR
differ in quite a number of ways - "head of hair/*hairs", "comb one's
hair/*hairs", etc.

 >Some poorly-informed (or misquoted?) 'experts' on the Web and in the
 >media recently have asserted that "chad" is like "sheep" ("one
 >sheep", "two sheep"): this seems to arise from a confusion between a
 >plural and a "mass noun".

indeed, explicit pronouncements have often been strikingly misguided,
for this very reason.  but i don't see any reason to assume that
unmarked-plural "chad" could arise only from such misguiding theorizing.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 30 00:56:33 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 19:56:33 EST
Subject: Grunions & Actoids
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.195633.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GRUNIONS

   From NEW YORK PRESS, November 29-December 5, 2000, pg. 2, col. 2:

   The annual _New York_ "expose" on ecstasy use by Silicon Alley grunions...

(Grunions?  What happened to grunts?  OED has "grunion," but it's a fish--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
ACTOID

   From NEW YORK PRESS, November 29-December 5, 2000, pg. 29, col. 2, caption about a character in Alan Ayckbourn's new play, COMIC POTENTIAL:

   Dee, as a robot "actoid," makes a performance of enormous technical difficulty seem easy.

--------------------------------------------------------
MARY HAD A LITTLE LAMB

   RESTAURANT MANAGEMENT, January 1935, pg. 33, has a menu from WRIGHT'S QUICK LUNCH (Newport Beach) House of "Wisecracks," which include:

MARY HAD A
LITTLE LAMB
WHAT WILL
YOU HAVE

WEATHER FORECAST
CHILI TODAY
AND TOMORROW

LOOK OUT FOR OUR
   DOGS
THEY ARE THE WURST KIND

Making Love is like
   APPLE PIE
a Little Crust & a lot of
   APPLESAUCE

ROSES ARE RED
VIOLETS BLUE
HORSES NECK
  DO YOU?

--------------------------------------------------------
SELL THE SIZZLE

   From THE ESTIATOR (NYC; it's half-Greek to me), August 1940, pg. 13, col. 2:

_The Sizzle Sells The Steak_
   It's the sizzle that sells the steak and not the cow.  You never saw a cow walking through a restaurant taking orders for her shank bone.  But what happens when a waiter walks through with a steak that sizzles?  First the customer hears it, then he smells it and then he sees it.  If he has the money he will order the steak instead of a hamburger that fizzles.


From P2052 at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 30 01:24:43 2000
From: P2052 at AOL.COM (P2052 at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:24:43 EST
Subject: teacher's query
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.202443.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I generarlly follow the stress on the first syllable for nouns and on the
second syllable for verbs (generalizing from similar patterns, such as  RE
search,/re SEARCH; DE fect/de FECT, RE ject/re JECT,  MIS fire/mis
FIRE)--hence, DE tail/de TAIL. ) I've also heard RE tard/re TARD and, in some
dialects,  IN vite (for invitation) /IN vite and .   I'm not sure of the
rule, though.
              PAT

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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Nov 29 13:15:31 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 21:15:31 +0800
Subject: Grunions & Actoids
In-Reply-To: <15.c6ae803.2756ffc1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.211531.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>GRUNIONS
>
>    From NEW YORK PRESS, November 29-December 5, 2000, pg. 2, col. 2:
>
>    The annual _New York_ "expose" on ecstasy use by Silicon Alley grunions...
>
>(Grunions?  What happened to grunts?  OED has "grunion," but it's a fish--ed.)

Not just ANY fish, though.  Grunion are notorious for popping up in
huge bunches in the ocean at night, and more specifically (as the
AHD4 reminds us), a grunion is "a small fish that spawns at night
along beaches during high tides of spring and summer"--I remember the
red tides in southern California attributed to the fact that the
grunion were running.   The fish's name comes from a (Spanish) verb
meaning 'grumble' or 'grunt'.  Perhaps among these three activities
comes the decision to refer to the Silicon Alley partiers as grunion.
(I prefer the zero plural myself.)

larry


From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Nov 30 02:36:54 2000
From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:36:54 -0600
Subject: American English Stress.
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.203654.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Do any of the dictionaries on CD allow one to search by total syllables, part of speech and stress marks? The results of such a search on the whole of English would be interesting.

Regarding the question about the stress of "detail", and other such two-syllable words which are noun-verb pairs differing only in stress, my instinct that all such verbs 'correctly' take the stress on the second syllable, and also reduce the first vowel to something close to a schwa. 
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From james at MULLAN.UK.COM  Thu Nov 30 01:11:08 2000
From: james at MULLAN.UK.COM (James C. Mullan)
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 20:11:08 -0500
Subject: Blessed
In-Reply-To: <v04210103b64a0a0d1d2c@[165.247.179.136]>
Message-ID: <WED.29.NOV.2000.201108.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 20:28 11/28/00 -0500, Tony Glaser wrote:
>I'm new to this list, and am not a professional in the area of
[snip]
>
>I lived in Montserrat in the Eastern Caribbean for many years, and
>occasionally heard people (English/Montserrat creole speakers) use
>the word "blessed" to mean "injured" - derived from the French
>"bless" (although quite why it should appear in the English-speaking
>Caribbean I'm not sure).
[snip]

Isn't "bless?" the French word for "wounded" or "injured"? It could have
been imported into the creole?
Jimmy


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Nov 30 06:57:57 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 01:57:57 -0500
Subject: Scrabble
In-Reply-To: <E141Cx3-0004XF-00@rsunx.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.015757.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > Other than the info given in Popular Delusions and the Madness of
> Crowds, is
> > there anything more known regarding the "Quoz!" catchphrase of Victorian
> > England?
> >
>
>Well, I can tell you it's not a legal Scrabble word in England.  Too bad!!

What determines which words are legal in British Scrabble?

A Scrabble-playing colleague told me that there is an official Scrabble
dictionary used in the US.

He said that in Britain, any word listed in the OED is acceptable: is he
mistaken?

(I suppose he's speaking of tournament play.)

-- Doug Wilson


From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK  Thu Nov 30 11:15:36 2000
From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:15:36 +0000
Subject: Scrabble
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.111536.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > >Well, I can tell you it's not a legal Scrabble word in England.  Too
bad!!
>
> What determines which words are legal in British Scrabble?
>
> A Scrabble-playing colleague told me that there is an official Scrabble
> dictionary used in the US.
>
> He said that in Britain, any word listed in the OED is acceptable: is he
> mistaken?
>
> (I suppose he's speaking of tournament play.)


The OED is irrelevant to British Scrabble, although it may have been used long
ago.  The official dictionary for UK Scrabble is Chambers.  They put out
'Official Scrabble Words' (OSW4) so that you have all the
inflections/derivations of headwords that are legal play.

However, this is about to change.  In January, we start switching over to the
'world dictionary' (also known as SOWPODS) which includes all the words from
the OSW4 and OTCWL, the US tournament/club official dictionary, published by
Merriam-Webster.  (This is not the same as the 'official Scrabble dictionary'
that Merriam-Webster sells in shops.  You have to be a member of the National
Scrabble Assn to buy OTCWL, because it has --yikes!-- bad words in it!)

The North American Natl Scrabble Assn voted against the world dictionary last
year.  (But the Americans had much more to lose by joining dictionaries than
the British--the American game is much different, more strategic, than the
British, and the addition of two-letter Z and Q words would have really
changed the spirit of the game.)

Don't you feel enriched by this knowledge?  How did you live without it
before?

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics
School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QH
UK

phone +44-(0)1273-678844
fax   +44-(0)1273-671320


From gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM  Thu Nov 30 11:51:41 2000
From: gbarrett at MONICKELS.COM (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 12:51:41 +0100
Subject: Scrabble
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.125141.0100.GBARRETT@MONICKELS.COM>

>(But the Americans had much more to lose by joining dictionaries than
>the British--the American game is much different, more strategic, than the
>British, and the addition of two-letter Z and Q words would have really
>changed the spirit of the game.)

This is interesting. How different are the strategies? Are you talking about
opportunity blocking and highs-score whoring or what? And on whose part? Does this mean
you're going to come back to the US and blow all the Yanks away with your new Scrabble
strategy hybrid vigor?


From thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU  Thu Nov 30 15:24:00 2000
From: thompsng at ELMER4.BOBST.NYU.EDU (GEORGE THOMPSON)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:24:00 EST
Subject: flogged like a rented mule
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.102400.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Several years ago I heard John Sterling, the lead voice on
the NY Yankees radio broadcasts, use the expression "to beat like a
rented mule".  I don't remember the statement precisely, though I'm
sure it was "beat", not "flog"; nor the context, except that it
referred to sports, presumably baseball.

GAT


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Thu Nov 30 15:35:52 2000
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 09:35:52 -0600
Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.093552.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

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From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 30 16:09:44 2000
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:09:44 -0500
Subject: flogged like a rented mule
In-Reply-To: <143BC152233@elmer4.bobst.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.110944.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GEORGE THOMPSON wrote:
>        Several years ago I heard John Sterling, the lead voice on
>the NY Yankees radio broadcasts, use the expression "to beat like a
>rented mule".  I don't remember the statement precisely, though I'm
>sure it was "beat", not "flog"; nor the context, except that it
>referred to sports, presumably baseball.
>

It's an expression I hear regularly on sports highlight shows
(SportsCenter and the like), usually in reference to hockey. The
canonical trope is "X team beat Y (opponent's goalie) like a rented
mule", typically when said goalie lets in a few shots he should have
stopped.

Alice
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 30 16:48:05 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 11:48:05 EST
Subject: Peach Smoothie (1952)
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.114805.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   BETTER HOMES AND GARDENS had a very large circulation in the 1950s.
   From August 1952, pages 84-85:

Calorie counters can
_Count on an electric blender_
Want your weight to go up or down on the scale?  Then try some of these blender tricks for adding sparkle to meals and snacks
(Orange Pep-up, Banana Milk Shake, Blender Fudge Sauce, and Avocado Dip are also shown--ed.)
(Pg. 84, col. 2--ed.)
_Peach Smoothie._  Frozen peaches flavor a luscious, low-calorie cooler.  It's so thick you drink it through fat straws.  But instead of adding ice cream, you let blender whip crushed ice, nonfat dry milk into a smooth treat.
(Pg. 86, col. 3--ed.)
   _Peach Smoothie_
_So thick you'll think it's made with ice cream--_
1/2 12-ounce package frozen peaches
1/2 cup cold water
2 tablespoons lemon juice
3 tablespoons nonfat dry milk
1 cup crushed ice
   Cut package of frozen peaches in two.  Thaw one half slightly and break it apart.  Place water, lemon juice, and nonfat dry milk in the blender.  Turn it on and gradually add small chunks of frozen peaches and the crushed ice.  Blend until smooth, about 30 seconds.  Makes 2 1/2 cups.  Use remaining frozen peaches for a second batch of these milk shakes.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Nov 30 04:04:12 2000
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 12:04:12 +0800
Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20001130093552.0069b380@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.120412.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Can anyone help Mr. Caraway?  DARE has only one bit of anecdotal
>corroboration.
>
>  >>>>
>>X-Sender: jcaraway1 at pop-server.austin.rr.com
>>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
>>Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:48:48 -0600
>>To: jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu
>>From: Jim Caraway <jcaraway1 at austin.rr.com>
>>Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
>>Cc: lvonschn at facstaff.wisc.edu
>>
>>Hello.
>>
>>Since I retired in 1993 I've been writing on a Journal at the
>>request of my family, in which I've tried to set down all the
>>recollections I can remember growing up in Mills County, Texas
>>during the depression as a boy. One of the things I remember was
>>the use of the word, "yahooty", pronounced "yea" (as in, "Yea shall
>>know the truth, ...") "hooty". It was used in the context of a
>>fictitious or imaginary person, like under the following
>>circumstance: Someone says, "Who took the last piece of pie?" And
>>I'd say "Yahooty took it." when in fact it was I who took it. A
>>sort of scapegoat. Then, recently I was watching a rerun of an
>>episode from the TV series, "The Waltons", and the name, Yahooty,
>>came up again. This time it was used in the context of the name of
>>the little man in the refrigerator who turns off the light when the
>>door is closed.
>>
>>My question is do you have any information on this word, or do you
>>have any idea where I could get a true definition of its use and
>>origin? I've searched the internet without success.
>>
Interesting.  Looks like most of the google references use "yahooty"
as a filler for someone unknown (= Whats{his/her}name), but without
the specific scapegoating sense cited by Mr. Caraway.  A couple of
sites have it as some sort of generalized cheer, a kind of reinforced
"Yay!".  There's even a www.yahooty.com site, but I couldn't get any
info from it.  And then there was this one outlier, from a "Humour in
Slash Fiction" chat group archived at
http://www.squidge.org/~adsoffice/logs/20000716_2.html:

      <ahnon_e_m> I bet Q has a yahooty this long.....
      fuzzicat giggles

larry


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Thu Nov 30 20:20:35 2000
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 12:20:35 -0800
Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.122035.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In line with Larry's findings, going to the TopClick (watch the
spelling) search site, both yahooty and ya hooty can be found, as used
in an exclamatory context.  Unfortunately, some of the links are broken,
if not incorrect.

http://www.topclick.com/

In a generic context, there is a mention of Mrs.Yahooty and Mr.
Schlempf, at:
http://csf.colorado.edu/mail/pkt/feb98/0658.html

And Ms. Yahooty, at:
http://pix.egroups.com/message/ipe/3159

The name of a horse, Blue Yahooty Hancock, nicknamed Hootie, at:
http://www.horses-for-sale.net/bin/showhorse.pl?horseid=184186

Exclamation, at:
http://cyclery.com/lists/mtb/mtb-archive-hyper/mtb.199906/0223.html
http://cyclery.com/lists/chinook/chinook-archive-hyper/chinook.199903/0004.html

http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~zhwang/Madonna/MDRoL1.html
http://www.accd.edu/tcmn/nov99.htm  [Yahooty hoot hoot!]

George S. Cole   gscole at ark.ship.edu
Shippensburg University


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Nov 30 18:05:59 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:05:59 -0500
Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20001130093552.0069b380@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.130559.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>Yahooty

This is the most enlightening item I can find in a quick Web search:

http://www.shu.ac.uk/web-admin/phrases/bulletin_board/5/messages/348.html

The way it's shown here, it might have been "Yehudi" originally (famous
violinist's first name).

There was a Walt Disney cartoon owl named "Yehooty".

-- Doug Wilson


From pcleary at WANS.NET  Thu Nov 30 18:07:37 2000
From: pcleary at WANS.NET (Philip E. Cleary)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:07:37 -0500
Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.130737.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<It was used in the context of a fictitious or imaginary person, like under the following circumstance: Someone says, "Who took the last piece of pie?" And I'd say "Yahooty took it." when in fact it was I who took it. A sort of scapegoat. >

In our Bostonian family there is a mythical person who bears the responsibility for missing or broken objects, etc. He was introduced into the family by my wife, a native of Seattle, who learned of him from her mother, a Seattle native who spent a fair amount of time in NJ. My wife defines him as "the little man who isn't there" and (being a musician) always thought his name was "Yehudi."

Phil Cleary
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From funex79 at SLONET.ORG  Thu Nov 30 18:34:55 2000
From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 10:34:55 -0800
Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.103455.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Where's Yehudi?" was a tagline on the Bob Hope radio show in the forties. May have had somehing to do with:

Yesterday upon the stair
I met a man who wasn't there.
He wasn't there again today.
Oh how I wish he'd go away.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Joan Houston Hall 
  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU 
  Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 7:35 AM
  Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition


  Can anyone help Mr. Caraway? DARE has only one bit of anecdotal corroboration.

  >>>>

    X-Sender: jcaraway1 at pop-server.austin.rr.com
    X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32)
    Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 19:48:48 -0600
    To: jdhall at facstaff.wisc.edu
    From: Jim Caraway <jcaraway1 at austin.rr.com>
    Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
    Cc: lvonschn at facstaff.wisc.edu

    Hello.

    Since I retired in 1993 I've been writing on a Journal at the request of my family, in which I've tried to set down all the recollections I can remember growing up in Mills County, Texas during the depression as a boy. One of the things I remember was the use of the word, "yahooty", pronounced "yea" (as in, "Yea shall know the truth, ...") "hooty". It was used in the context of a fictitious or imaginary person, like under the following circumstance: Someone says, "Who took the last piece of pie?" And I'd say "Yahooty took it." when in fact it was I who took it. A sort of scapegoat. Then, recently I was watching a rerun of an episode from the TV series, "The Waltons", and the name, Yahooty, came up again. This time it was used in the context of the name of the little man in the refrigerator who turns off the light when the door is closed.

    My question is do you have any information on this word, or do you have any idea where I could get a true definition of its use and origin? I've searched the internet without success.

    I'm not talking about the word, yahoo, which when I was growing up meant an uncouth person, lout, brute, or person lacking sensibility, and which originated with Jonathan Swift in Gulliver's Travels.

    Nor am I talking about the word, yahudi, (in Arabic-speaking or Muslim countries) or yehudi (in the U.S. and Israel), which simply means a Jew, in English or in Hebrew. Since Jews frequently are scapegoats, there could be a relationship between words here, but I doubt that was the case when I was growing up.

    I noticed that the latter volumns of D.A.R.E. (containing words beginning with the letter "Y") have not been published. Am I correct?

    I'm not really sure of the spelling of yahooty; it could be yeehooty, or yeahooty. Would appreciate your comments. Thanks.



    -
    jcaraway1 at austin.rr.com, Austin, Texas.
    Please visit my home web site at:
    http://home.austin.rr.com/jcaraway1/
    Also, Please visit my genealogy web site at:
    http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/c/a/r/James-C-Caraway/




  <<<< 
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From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Nov 30 18:34:19 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 13:34:19 -0500
Subject: "Yahooty" - Origin and definition
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20001130125454.00aaba30@127.0.0.1>
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.133419.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another Web reference to Bob Hope's "Yehudi":

http://www.spumco.com/magazine/eowbcc/eowbcc-xyz.html

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Nov 30 19:27:04 2000
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 14:27:04 -0500
Subject: Chad enuffa dis? (continued)
In-Reply-To: <50.dcbdcf4.2751c9e3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.142704.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I did a little reading. It turns out I was woefully ignorant of the history
of punched tape and cards.

Since the earliest and most frequent usages of "chad" seem to refer to
telegraphy tape, I reviewed the history of punched tape in telegraphy.
Apparently something called Wheatstone tape, patented in 1846 (UK), looking
very similar to punched tape used ca. 1960, became widespread around
1870-1890. So plenty of chad(s) would have been present in large telegraph
offices by ca. 1900.

The earliest similar technology commonly cited is the Jacquard loom, which
used punched cards for control early in the 19th century. I doubt there
would have been much volume of chad(s) associated with this or with other
early devices such as Babbage engines. But the US census used punched cards
around 1900 (I forget the exact date), no doubt leading to a localized
surfeit of chad.

Postage stamps have been perforated by hole punch since about 1854, and the
major early technical problem involved failure of the punch due to impacted
paper (i.e., chad[s]). I find mention of "paper" and "paper discs" only, in
a short browse at the library. One (recent) book (which I couldn't find)
was quoted as mentioning the huge volume of chad (using this word) produced
in manufacture of US stamps. Surely there would have been a large volume by
ca. 1900.

I doubt our "chad" has been in (significant) use since ca. 1900 (in this
case probably it would have made it into large dictionaries earlier). But
the 1920's or 1930's might be plausible?

-- Doug Wilson


From Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM  Thu Nov 30 21:16:12 2000
From: Mark_Mandel at DRAGONSYS.COM (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 16:16:12 -0500
Subject: 32.20
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.161612.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ray Ott <Amcolph at AOL.COM> writes:

>>>>>
The 32 is the caliber (.32" dia.) and the 20 is the number of grains of
black powder in the
cartridge.
<<<<<

Presumably not a count of 20 individual grains (as in "grains of sand"),
but a weight of 20 grains, or 1.3 grams.

   Mark A. Mandel : Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company
          Mark_Mandel at dragonsys.com : Senior Linguist
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Nov 30 23:18:50 2000
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:18:50 EST
Subject: Micromotors; Nanonurses; Teenagers
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.181850.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MICROMOTORS & NANONURSES

   From today's FINANCIAL TIMES, 30 November 2000, "technology Woth Watching," pg. 11, col. 1:

_Historic route to_
_new micromotors_
(Nanomotors, camphor dance are explained--ed.)

   From Col. 3:

_Here come the_
_nanonurses_
   (...)  The Cornell team envisages one of the uses of the nanodevices, which are about the size of virus particles, as "nanonurses" that could move about the body repairing cells or dispensing drugs.

(As long as we're not talking about British nanonurses--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------
TEENAGER

   AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS has "teenager" as WOTY for 1939, but I don't have that handy to check the cite.
   From BETTER HOMES AND GARDENS, February 1939, pg. 34, col. 1:

_"So Long Folks--I've a Date"_
Shall parents have a say in the so-
cial life of their teen-agers?  Here
young moderns battle it out


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Nov 30 23:25:08 2000
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 18:25:08 -0500
Subject: Chad enuffa dis? (continued)
Message-ID: <THU.30.NOV.2000.182508.0500.ABATEFR@EARTHLINK.NET>

To add to what Douglas Wilson said, I know that in the days of paper tape in
earlier (1960s) computer use, the devices that would punch out the tape (it
was yellow paper for some reason), usually right next to the computer
console, had a catch bin below the area where the holes got punched.  The
bin would fill up with many thousands of little paper disks.  I cannot
myself recall anyone calling that stuff "chad", as mass noun or count noun,
but I do know that a lot of that stuff was around, in every place doing
computing, and in places doing what used to be called automated typesetting.

For those who have not seen it, the old computer paper tape was about an
inch and a half wide, was low quality (like newsprint), was yellow, and was
punched out line-by-line.  The pattern of dots and non-dots in each line
represented a character -- a non-electronic computer byte.  In those days,
with no hard drives at all, the only means of electronic storage was a huge
and expensive tape drive (as in old movies about computers).  The paper tape
was cheap and purely mechanical, like punch cards, but had the advantage of
allowing a long continuous stream of data recording.

Punch cards used to be very common in the same period, and led to similar
janitorial needs -- to collect, clean out, and dispose of a huge amount of
these little bits of paper.

We should check with some long-time computer users, or retired IBM mainframe
computer types, re usage of "chad".

Sorry to go on, but I think the paper-tape technology is so outmoded that it
may be unfamiliar to many.  As we all know so well, punch cards are still
very much with us.

Frank Abate