From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 1 01:36:15 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:36:15 -0600 Subject: Verbless slogans - A new trend? Message-ID: >Careful you don't confuse r-lessness (we ready) with copula deletion >(we ready). > >dInIs I wonder about this too, 'we a-ready' to the ear. It's almost as if someone bungled the spelling. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From paul at IMPLICATURE.COM Sat Dec 1 04:44:43 2001 From: paul at IMPLICATURE.COM (Paul Ivsin) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:44:43 -0600 Subject: amber/yellow lights Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bowie" Well, if you're moving *really* fast, i *guess* the blue shift would make it look orange... David, wondering how fast you'd have to go to make it look green ----- FWIW, from http://www.fourmilab.ch/cship/doppler.html -- "There's an apocryphal story about the physicist who tried to beat a ticket for running a red light by telling the judge that at the speed he was approaching the signal, the red light was Doppler shifted so it appeared green. The judge pondered this for a few minutes and tore up the red light ticket. Then, seeing as the physicist would have to be driving about a quarter of the speed of light to see a red signal as green, the judge fined him 269 million dollars for speeding, one dollar for each kilometer per hour over the limit." Paul ... ... ... Paul Ivsin paul at ivsin.com From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU Sat Dec 1 07:06:35 2001 From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:06:35 -0600 Subject: Verbless slogans - A new trend? Message-ID: It means "We ready to play anybody anytime anywhere" -- "eternal present." DMLance "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > I'm puzzled why "Every time we play the Tigers. we are ready" can't > refer to an upcoming event. > > 'We ready' surely does mean right now, and can, of course, be > extended to mean tbne moment of play (as I indicated). > > dInIs > > >I noticed that eight of thirteen players on last year's > >UCharleston team were African American, as well as the > >head coach. If the ratio is close to that this year > >too, is it possible that the team knew what they meant > >by "we be ready"? > > > >Herb Stahlke > >> From my own experience, I would suggest the following: > >> "We be ready" wouldn't be appropriate when referring to future events (e.g., > >> plans for the whole year) since the statement indicates a general present > >> habitual state, based on past [before the moment of speaking] occurrences > >> (e.g., Whenever we have to play the Tigers, we be ready" [="Every time we > >> play the Tigers, we are ready" or "Every time we played the Tigers, we were > >> ready" or "Every time we've played the Tigers, we have been ready."]) "We > >> ready" (=We are ready) is the better choice since it indicates a present > >> state of physical or mental preparedness for whatever happens in the near or > >> distant future. P-A-T > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Department of Linguistics and Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > preston at pilot.msu.edu > Office: (517)353-0740 > Fax: (517)432-2736 From lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG Sat Dec 1 07:03:14 2001 From: lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG (Linda Sparlin) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:03:14 -0600 Subject: "Sky west and crooked" Message-ID: Wondering if anyone has run across the origin of "Sky west and crooked" - to describe anything out of alignment or scattered or something moving in disorderly fashion. For instance: A hand-drawn line The part in a little girl's hair Any hand-crafted effort that turns out less than straight. A road with many curves and Y's. Birds (or animals or people) scattering "all sky west and crooked." In context "It (or They) went all sky west and crooked." or It goes (all) sky west and crooked." Commonly used 1940's to her death in 1964, by my grandmother in Tulsa, OK, (her birth in 1878 was in Whitley County, KY and upbringing in Franklin or Crawford County, AR, and eastern OK). Later used by my mother in OK and greater Kansas City, MO/KS. Crooked is self explanatory, but where did "sky west" come from? Linda Sparlin From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Dec 1 12:07:45 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 07:07:45 -0500 Subject: "Sky west and crooked" Message-ID: �Sky West and Crooked� was the title (in USA, 1966) of a film directed and starring John Mills opposite his daughter Haley Mills. The story was written by John Mills' wife, Mary Hayley Bell. The title of the British release of the movie was �Gypsy Girl.� The following quotation is found at [ http://www.silcom.com/~manatee/bartlett_courting.html ]http://www.silcom.com/~manatee/bartlett_courting.html �And everything in Maguire (named after her father) is running smoothly under the able direction of Jake Williams, a full-fledged romantic hero, until Cass comes to town, and turns the whole community, and Jake, up-side-down, sky-west, and crooked.� It appears in a description of COURTING CASSIDY by Stephanie Bartlett reviewed by Patricia White 4/4/97. �Time quotes a little newspaper down in Texas and we like what it said: �Truly this is a world which has no regard for the established order of things, but knocks them sky west and crooked, and lo, the upstart hath the land and its fatness.'� �Obscenity in the Arts,� by Vardis Fisher in _Eastern Idaho Farmer_, May 5, 1966 [http://library.boisestate.edu/special/fishercolumn/number44.htm] >From Harold Wentworth's _American Dialect Dictionary_: sky-western-crooked, adj. Helpless, senseless. 1908 e.Ala., w.Ga. [no quotes] Perhaps this is related to _knock someone skywest_, a variant of _knock someone galley west_ (in Chapman's revision of Wentworth and Flexner). Wentworth and Flexner show _galley west_ as meaning �thoroughly; with great force; in confusion.� DARE shows the following in its etymology of _galley-west_: Varr of Engl dial. _collywest(on)_ contrarily, askew] chiefly Nth See Map Cf high, west, and crooked. At the entry for _galley-west_, HDAS (Lighter) attests knock galley-west as early as 1833. Mark Twain uses it in 1882 to mean �destroy.� DARE shows _knock ... gally-west_ from 1875 (Twain). The regional information is sw Missouri and Minnesota. Under _high, west, and crooked_, DARE gives the meaning as �In every direction, every which way.� The e.q. [earliest quote] is 1965. lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG,Net writes: >Wondering if anyone has run across the origin of "Sky west and crooked" >- to >describe anything out of alignment or scattered or something moving in >disorderly fashion. For instance: >A hand-drawn line >The part in a little girl's hair >Any hand-crafted effort that turns out less than straight. >A road with many curves and Y's. >Birds (or animals or people) scattering "all sky west and crooked." >In context "It (or They) went all sky west and crooked." or It goes >(all) >sky west and crooked." >Commonly used 1940's to her death in 1964, by my grandmother in Tulsa, >OK, >(her birth in 1878 was in Whitley County, KY and upbringing in Franklin >or >Crawford County, AR, and eastern OK). Later used by my mother in OK and >greater Kansas City, MO/KS. >Crooked is self explanatory, but where did "sky west" come from? Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Sat Dec 1 19:05:37 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:05:37 -0500 Subject: Verbless slogans - A new trend? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree that the spoken phrase could be r-less, but I doubt that the spelled version was "bungled." The R gemerally surfaces in spelling, even in strongly r-less dialects; just as it generally does not in orally intrusive /r/ speech when it's spelled. I'd still prefer to assume the spelling was deliberate and affirmative. At 07:36 PM 11/30/01 -0600, you wrote: >>Careful you don't confuse r-lessness (we ready) with copula deletion >>(we ready). >> >>dInIs > >I wonder about this too, 'we a-ready' to the ear. It's almost as if someone >bungled the spelling. > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > From white_angels_2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 1 22:02:37 2001 From: white_angels_2000 at YAHOO.COM (Angels Of Light Int'l Music "") Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:02:37 -0800 Subject: Canadian, eh? Message-ID: The 1998 Canadian Oxford Dictionary - based on K. Barber's five-year-long research project - offers recent scientific evidence of how current "eh" is, classifying it as an informal Canadianism. This "kind of articulated question mark" (as W. Avis previously defined it) serves to (I'm quoting here) "ascertain the comprehension, continued interest, agreement, etc. of the person/s addressed." Interestingly, the attention-getting function seems to be the only distinctively Canadian usage of the interjection , since all other uses (e.g., inviting assent, expressing inquiry or surprise, asking for repetition or an explanation) are common to other Commonwealth countries and, to a lesser extent, the United States. According to the Cdn sociolinguist Jack Chambers, "eh" is a politeness marker which reflects Canadians' friendly attitude (e.g., "It's a lovely day, eh?" [my example]) . In "Guide to Canadian English Usage" (published in 1997), it is said that Canadians apparently use this question word more widely and more often than other anglophones, which is itself a typical feature of the English spoken in Canada. Context-wise, the guide's editors concur that the most stigmatized use of the word is the anecdotal one (� la McKenzie). My own field research has led me to think that it may be used more often by women (including teenagers and college students), and that it may be more commonly heard in Eastern Canada (Ontario and the Atlantic provinces) than it is out west (British Columbia, Alberta, and the Prairies). In summary, "eh" is still alive in Canadian English and can be considered to be a true Canadianism in terms of frequency and contextual distinctiveness. Dr. S. Roti Lexicographer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com From jpparker at ISERV.NET Sun Dec 2 00:01:14 2001 From: jpparker at ISERV.NET (jane p parker) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 19:01:14 -0500 Subject: Canadian, eh? Message-ID: I always thought hoser male vs. hose-bag female, related to the sex organs. And that seemed to be the understanding among everyone I knew in Minnesota in the Mid-70's when "take off to the great white north" was a hit on the radio. I never saw sctv but everyone know the Mac Kenzie brothers and most Minnesotan teen-age guys identified with them. Where I lived there were a lot of kaynuks, old french/canadian families. Anyways calling someone a hoser was a pretty lewd thing to say. Jane P Parker From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 2 00:46:06 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 19:46:06 EST Subject: Guayquil ("Panama") Hat (1818); Sucre & Dollars Message-ID: GUAYQUIL ("PANAMA") HAT (continued) A NARRATIVE OF THE BRITON'S VOYAGE TO PITCAIRN'S ISLAND: INCLUDING AN INTERESTING SKETCH OF THE PRESENT STATE OF THE BRAZILS AND OF SPANISH SOUTH AMERICA by John Shillibeer Law and Whittaker, London 1818 Pg. 114: The trade carried on here is considerable from the different countries of Mexico, Quito and Chili: from whence they are supplied with pitch, tar and sulphur, with wines, spirits, wood, cocoa and Guayquil hats. (OED has 1833 for "Panama straw hat," which was probably manufactured in Guayaquil, Ecuador--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- SUCRE & DOLLARS OED states that the "sucre" is the monetary unit of Ecuador. This is wrong. It's U.S. dollars. I got off the plane and asked my tour guide about the exchange rate, and got a big stare. My tour guide often complained that U.S. money is difficult for Spanish speakers to understand. The dollars are all green and all of the same size. A dime says "ONE DIME"--whatever that is. People thought it was a penny because it's so small! I received an old Susan B. Anthony dollar coin, probably because someone thought it was a quarter. If you visit Ecuador, try not to use their money. Much of it is illegally printed in Colombia. Seen in Banos was a sign: "CHANGE DOLLARS." Don't do it! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 2 01:07:39 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 20:07:39 EST Subject: Taco (1927 sightings) Message-ID: BRIMSTONE AND CHILI: A BOOK OF PERSONAL EXPERIENCES IN THE SOUTHWEST AND IN MEXICO by Carleton Beals Alfred A. Knopf, NY 1927 Pg. 112 (Chapter on CAJEME): Late that afternoon--the purple waters of Guaymas Bay, and Empalme. Just outside the station we spent out twenty centavos for several _tacos_, with chili, and coffee; then walked through the tree-shaded town. Pg. 115: Calling to one of the vendors swarming on the platform, we invested our twenty-five centavos in _tacos_ and oranges--our first food of the day. Our purchases attracted a number of urchins, who came up all agog to the door of the box car to stare and question. -------------------------------------------------------- FRANCES TOOR'S GUIDE TO MEXICO Printed in Mexico City for 1933 Pg. 15: The _tacos_ are the Mexican sandwiches, rolled in _torillas_ instead of between bread. (No special mention is made in this book of Rio Frio or any other Mexican town specializing in "tacos." I went throught Toor's A TREASURY OF MEXICAN FOLKWAYS (1947), but it's not interesting for its food. "A RECIPE FOR MOLE AND TURKEY" is in his magazine MEXICAN FOLKWAYS, vol. 3, 1927, pages 238-239.--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- TACO MISC. CARPENTER'S WORLD TRAVELS: MEXICO by Frank G. Carpenter (Doubleday, Page & Co, Garden City, NY 1924) has a chapter on "FOOD AND DRINK BELOW THE RIO GRANDE, pages 171-181. "Taco" is never mentioned. I'll try to look at the MEXICAN HERALD (1890-1915) and the MEXICAN POST (1921-1922) in the Library of Congress on Monday. These were English language newspapers published in Mexico City. The NYPL has MODERN MEXICO (a weekly edition of the MEXICAN HERALD) up to 1909. "The Maguey and Pulque" is in February 16, 1909, pg. 1; "Making of Cocoanut Pulque" is in March 23, 1909, pg. 5; "Seeing Mexico City" ("turista") is in May 25, 1909, pg. 6. From dsgood at VISI.COM Sun Dec 2 05:22:00 2001 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 23:22:00 -0600 Subject: dialects not changing for centuries? Message-ID: >From a discussion on the newsgroup rec.arts.sf.composition (for discussion of writing and selling sf/fantasy/_)" ------- Forwarded message follows ------- In article _, _ says... > On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:22:15 -0600, Dan Goodman > wrote: > > >In article says... > >> There's islands in the Chesapeake Bay where the accent & dialect is > >> hundreds of years old English from England. Until recently, they were > >> so isolated, the dialect never changed. > > > > > >It's almost certainly more accurate to say that the dialect changed > >very, very slowly. > > Not according to the National Geographic show on them. Time to run this by the American Dialect Society mailing list, and see what they say. -- Dan Goodman dsgood at visi.com ------- End of forwarded message ------- Dan Goodman dsgood at visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Sun Dec 2 15:26:37 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 15:26:37 -0000 Subject: Canadian, eh? In-Reply-To: <20011201220237.30268.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: --On Saturday, December 1, 2001 2:02 pm -0800 "Angels Of Light Int'l Music \"Æ\"" wrote: > In summary, "eh" is still alive in Canadian English > and can be considered to be a true Canadianism in > terms of frequency and contextual distinctiveness. I've probably mentioned this before, but South African "hey" is pretty much the same as Canadian 'eh' in its use. Here are the definitions from the Oxford _Dictionary of South African English on Historical Principles". I'll give a couple of examples with each, but there are lots more in the book. 1. Added to a statement or a question: a request for an utterance to be repeated; a request for confirmation of what has been said; used to turn a statement into a question; inviting agreement. 1929 He's quite an intellectual, hey? 1961 Isn't it a small world, hey? 1971 But life's funny, hey? 1986 You're in standard nine, hey? 2. Added to an instruction or command to soften it, by implying that the assent of the one addressed is being sought. 1953 You must drive slowly, hey, so that they can keep up... 1975 Ag goodbye my boy ... come again hey! 3. Added to a question to insist on an answer, or to indicate that the question refers to something which the one addressed ought to take note of, or pay attention to . 1956 What do you think of that -- hey? 1966 Donder, now what's the matter with the thing, hey? 4. Added to a statement to give it emphasis or to retain the attention of the one addressed, through an implied request for a reply of some sort (when no reply is, in fact, required). 1985 He takes one look at ou Shirley -- you know Clint hey -- sommer in the bath, guns and all! 1987 'How many chaps do you want?' 'Five or six. Thanks hey.' --- Now the entry also says 'cf. hoor'. 'Hoor' is Afrikans 'hear' and is used in some of the same senses as 'hey' (short for 'hoor jy my?'--do you hear me?). So, that seems a likely etymology for 'hey'. What about 'eh'? And is this sort of discourse particle very common cross-linguistically? Are there similar things in other dialects of English? Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Sun Dec 2 18:28:45 2001 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:28:45 -0700 Subject: Tacos in Mexico In-Reply-To: <3C05298300064369@phobos.email.Arizona.EDU> Message-ID: The term "taco" identifies rather different things in various parts of Mexico, as does "enchilada". The familiar "norten~o" varieties spread from Texas, in which the taco is folded and fried crisp and enchilada is rolled and baked, can vary considerably, even in the US. In New Mexico and El Paso, enchiladas may be stacked pancake-style before baking, and in Sonora, southern Arizona, and southern California (at least near the border), they may be made as patties (looking like salmon croquettes). My first encounter with a radically different taco came in Mexico City in a small Veracruz restaurant, in which the tacos I ordered were, as in one of Barry's descriptions, made by simply rolling a tortilla around some shredded chicken. The enchiladas were, much to my surprise, fried (like what we have come to call flautas) after being rolled around some meat. This seemed almost a reversal of the Texas-Norten~o versions. I've never made an intentional study of regional variation in Mexican cuisine, but I am sure some anthropologist/folklorist has done so. The east coast is influenced by Caribbean features, including black beans instead of pinto beans, and lots of seafood not found elsewhere. Probably different regional sources of Spanish immigration, combined with original regional differences (prior to Spanish conquest, what is now Mexico was a complex set of different ethnic groups, with languages as different as English, Arabic, and Chinese), and of course subsequent postcolonial influences and movements. There is a Museo de las Culturas de Mexico just off the Zocalo at Moneda 13 which would be a good place to check into, and the Instituto Nacional de Antropologi'a e Historia has publications going back to the 1930s on all aspects of modern and prehispanic Mexican cultures (with precursors and researchers going back into the 1800s). Buen provecho! Rudy From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 2 06:08:59 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 14:08:59 +0800 Subject: Tacos in Mexico In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:28 AM -0700 12/2/01, Rudolph C Troike wrote: >The term "taco" identifies rather different things in various parts of >Mexico, as does "enchilada". The familiar "norten~o" varieties spread from >Texas, in which the taco is folded and fried crisp and enchilada is rolled >and baked, can vary considerably, even in the US. > In New Mexico and El Paso, enchiladas may be stacked pancake-style >before baking, and in Sonora, southern Arizona, and southern California >(at least near the border), they may be made as patties (looking like >salmon croquettes). > My first encounter with a radically different taco came in Mexico >City in a small Veracruz restaurant, in which the tacos I ordered were, as >in one of Barry's descriptions, made by simply rolling a tortilla around >some shredded chicken. this last kind is what I always thought of as an authentic taco, after I bought them on the street corners in Ensenada (Baja California). Two soft corn tortillas, in fact, rolled around meat (chicken, carnitas, tongue, whatever) with some spicy salsa and cilantro. Not JUST shredded chicken--that would be a bit bland for Mexico, at least for Baja. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 2 06:54:47 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 14:54:47 +0800 Subject: gap in the OED Message-ID: attention Jesse (et al.): As an Argentinian colleague, J. L. Speranza, just alerted me, the OED (on-line and printed) contains no entry for "implicature", the most important term in pragmatic theory and one that's been around since at least 1967 (when H. P. Grice's William James lectures were first delivered and circulated). I'm not sure when the first published cite would be; the term was already pretty old hat when I used it umpteen times in my 1972 dissertation, but Grice's lectures didn't appear in print until 1975. The AHD4 entry is pretty solid-- Linguistics [Why not "Philosophy" too?] 1. The aspect of meaning that a speaker conveys, implies, or suggests without directly expressing. Although the utterance "Can you pass the salt?" is literally a request for information about one's ability to pass salt, the understood implicature is a request for salt. 2. The process by which such a meaning is conveyed, implied, or suggested. In saying "Some dogs are mammals," the speaker conveys by implicature that not all dogs are mammals. --but curiously omits any attribution to Grice, the originator of the term. (As it happens, the example in #2 comes from my own work--I seem to recall that the AHD entry is due to our own Steve Kleinedler, and there was no such entry in AHD3--but I was just using it to illustrate Grice's concept.) The AHD4 entry for the verb "implicate" also contains a sense corresponding to the base of this noun--'To convey, imply, or suggest by implicature'--and this Gricean sense is also missing from the OED entry, although other, older senses of "implicate" are given. I know these items aren't as tasty as some of Barry's delectabilia, but they're pretty important in their own way. Jesse? larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 2 20:32:59 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 15:32:59 EST Subject: Tacos in Mexico Message-ID: "DEREK JETER'S TACO HOLE" ON SNL--A pretty bad (tasteless?) skit involving the current Yankee shortstop was on yesterday's Saturday Night Live. LIBRARY OF CONGRESS--The web site says that the Jefferson Library will be closed Monday (anthrax-related?), so I'll visit the LOC some other time. Tomorrow, I'll probably check out the menu collection at New York City Technical College, at Brooklyn's Metrotech Center. It has about 5,000 menus, most all from 1970 and from NYC. DAVID SHULMAN IN HOSPITAL WITH FLU--He called me to tell me he's in the Victory Memorial Hospital in Brooklyn (phone number misplaced, but they're in the book). He says it's the flu and he'll be out within three days. I'll check on him and the above in a Brooklyn visit tomorrow. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 2 21:42:57 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:42:57 EST Subject: "Taco" in DICCIONARIO DE MEJICANISMOS (1959) Message-ID: Maybe I'll re-think Rio Frio?...In any case, OED's first cite of "taco" from 1949's AMERICAN SPEECH is off a bit. DICCIONARIO DE MEJICANISMOS Razonado; comprobado con citas de autoridades; comparado con el de americanismos y con los vocabularios provinciales de los mas distinguidos diccionariestas hispanamericanos. por FRANCISCO J. SANTAMARIA PRIMERA EDICION EDITORIAL PORRUA, S. A. MEJICO 1959 Pg. 993: _Taco._ m. Por antonomasia, comida ligera e improvisada, alimento propio de la gente del pueblo; se prepara por lo comun con una tortilla enrollada. "Pero por hoy disimule que no este todavia lista la comida, si quiere mientras echar un _taco_ se lo hare al instante". (_Astacia_, t. II, 72)--"Los almorzadores, circulaban los tecomates viz (?--ed.) cesar, mordian los _tacos_ con aguacate y chilitos verdos con un verdadero placer". (PAYNO, _Los Bandidos de Rio Frio_, 156.)--"Cecilia, fina a su modo, como ella decia, ya le daba la mitad del taco de sua calientes tortillas". (Ip., _ib_., 376.)--"Estaba sentado en un puesto cercano al de Cecilia, comiendose un _taco_ de mesclapiques con aguacate". (Ip., _ib_., t. II, 587.)--"Yantaba en un rincon, una cazuela en la diestra y tres tortillas en _taco_ en la otra mano". (AZUELA, _Los de abajo_, 5.)--"A la salida, se metieron en un saloncito servido por muchachas a tomar unas copas y comer unos _taquitos_ de cabeza de res". (HENRIQUEZ, _Manuelita_, 76.)--"Desayunaron. Maria Nieves le hizo probar un _taco_ caliente con queso fresco y piloncillo raspado". (GARCIA IGLESIAS, _El Jaguey de las ruinas_, 184.)--"Y las ladiadas sufrian, en el agobio de las apuraciones, aguantandose con dos _tacos_ de chile y un trago de atole". (MAGDALENO, _El Resplandor_, 142.)--"La China me acompano hasta el embarcadero, llevandome un _taco_ para el camino, dos panuelos y mi pistola". (ROMEO FLORES, _Leyendas y cuentos michoacanos_, 71.)--"Los puestos de fritangas: chicarrones con chile verde, barbacoa, carnitas en tortillas calientes, enchiladas y sus primos hermanos los guajolotes, pambacitos compuestos, garnachas, _tacos_..." (GONZALEZ PENA, _El nicho iluminado_, 105.)--"Y no vaya a alebrestarsele el apetito al amable lector: los chilaquiles, los pencques, los sopes, los contamales, los _tacos_, las quesadillas y diversidad de sopas". (Ip., _ib_., 130.)--"Una batalla grandisima para poder, conseguir o ganar un _taco_ de frijoles". (URQUIZO, _Tropa Vieja_, 17.) RAMOS, 469. _Cuba_. Se usa como adjetive por peripuesto. PICHARDO, 484.--ORTIZ, 54.--MARTINEZ MOLES, 290. 2. Bocado que se toma fuera de comida, hecho por lo comun en rollo de tortilla. (Vino de Espana su nombre. Todo proviene de que ataca.) PATRON PENICHE, 163. "Como gorrona (epiteto de Tafolla) aprovechaba bien cuanta oportunidad se le presentaba para echar un _taco_ de algun antojito". (MAQUEO CASTELLANOS, _La Casona_, 40.) 3. Polaina de cuero. 4. (_Latania borbonica_, WATS.) Nombre mayo de una palmera, vulgarmente usado en Sinaloa. 5. Retaco, persona chaparrita y gorda. Lo mismo en Chile. 6. Buen jugador de billar. _Arg._ SEGOVIA, 143; _Tacon_, y 288.--GARZON, 462, tacon y trago de vino. _Col._ SUNDHEIM, 608: "En Rio Hacha hacen esta palabra sinonima de personaje, y sin embargo no valer un _taco_ significa alla lo propio que no valer un pito". _Chile._ ROMAN, V, 376: "m. Es corriente en CHile por _tacon_ (pieza semicircular, mas o menos alta, que va exteriormente unida a la suela del zapato o bota, en aquella parte que corresponde al calcanar.)--Por semojanza, parte inferior a base de la pilastra de madera para puertas y ventanas. Vease Pilastra, la. aacep. Fig y fam., individuo de pequena catatura. No es exclusivo de Chiloe, como lo da Cavada, sion general de CHile. El Diccionario gallego de Cueiro Pinol tambien lo trae con el significado de "Persona pequena". _Taco de goma:_ pieza de caucho con que se cubre la extremidad del _tacon_ para spagar el ruido al andar y para no resbalar".--RODRIGUEZ, 447. --DARSE UNO TACO. fr. fig. fam. Darse pisto, darse importancia. "Y por aqui conocera usted cuan poco tendria que aprender de aquel garbo, o lo que llaman _aire de taco_ las cortesanas". (PENSADOR, _El Periquillo_, t. I-B, 132.) RUBIO, _Anarquia_, 260. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Dec 2 22:41:13 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:41:13 -0500 Subject: gap in the OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Do you mean to say 'implicature' is not in the dictionary? dInIs (implicaturing all over the place) >attention Jesse (et al.): > >As an Argentinian colleague, J. L. Speranza, just alerted me, the OED >(on-line and printed) contains no entry for "implicature", the most >important term in pragmatic theory and one that's been around since >at least 1967 (when H. P. Grice's William James lectures were first >delivered and circulated). I'm not sure when the first published >cite would be; the term was already pretty old hat when I used it >umpteen times in my 1972 dissertation, but Grice's lectures didn't >appear in print until 1975. The AHD4 entry is pretty solid-- > >Linguistics [Why not "Philosophy" too?] >1. The aspect of meaning that a speaker conveys, implies, or suggests >without directly >expressing. Although the utterance "Can you pass the salt?" is >literally a request for >information about one's ability to pass salt, the understood >implicature is a request for >salt. >2. The process by which such a meaning is conveyed, implied, or suggested. In >saying "Some dogs are mammals," the speaker conveys by implicature >that not all >dogs are mammals. > >--but curiously omits any attribution to Grice, the originator of the >term. (As it happens, the example in #2 comes from my own work--I >seem to recall that the AHD entry is due to our own Steve Kleinedler, >and there was no such entry in AHD3--but I was just using it to >illustrate Grice's concept.) > >The AHD4 entry for the verb "implicate" also contains a sense >corresponding to the base of this noun--'To convey, imply, or suggest >by implicature'--and this Gricean sense is also missing from the OED >entry, although other, older senses of "implicate" are given. > >I know these items aren't as tasty as some of Barry's delectabilia, >but they're pretty important in their own way. Jesse? > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Dec 3 00:17:47 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:17:47 -0500 Subject: gap in the OED Message-ID: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU,Net writes: >Do you mean to say 'implicature' is not in the dictionary? >dInIs (implicaturing all over the place) implicature is AHD 4th edition + Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Dec 3 05:01:30 2001 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 22:01:30 -0700 Subject: Sky-west & crooked Message-ID: I queried my mother (98 in October) about this expression, and surfaced a recollection of its use when she lived in Palestine, in East Texas, before her family moved when she was in high school. Her firm impression was that she had only heard of its being used to refer to handwriting that was very messy, sort of all over the place. So this gives a pre-1918 datum for it in East Texas. She said she had not heard it used in Shawnee, OK, where her family moved, or OK City, where she lived for awhile in the late 1930s. Rudy From lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG Mon Dec 3 06:09:32 2001 From: lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG (Linda Sparlin) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 00:09:32 -0600 Subject: Sky-west & crooked In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Rudy. Interesting that your mother and my grandmother were both for a time in Shawnee, OK. My grandfather and uncle went to Texas to work the oil rigs several times, but I think that grandmother (b. 1877 KY, then AR and OK) and girls stayed in Tulsa on those occasions. Linda -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Rudolph C Troike Sent: 02 December, 2001 11:02 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Sky-west & crooked I queried my mother (98 in October) about this expression, and surfaced a recollection of its use when she lived in Palestine, in East Texas, before her family moved when she was in high school. Her firm impression was that she had only heard of its being used to refer to handwriting that was very messy, sort of all over the place. So this gives a pre-1918 datum for it in East Texas. She said she had not heard it used in Shawnee, OK, where her family moved, or OK City, where she lived for awhile in the late 1930s. Rudy From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 3 06:12:38 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 01:12:38 EST Subject: Laddering (of stock) Message-ID: "Laddering" is explained in "Flood of Lawsuits Puts Underwriters in Cross Hairs," by Jonathan D. Glater, SUNDAY NEW YORK TIMES, business section, 2 December 2001, on www.nytimes.com. Supposedly, during the 1990s, internet and other stocks were "laddered" to go higher, creating a stock bubble. From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 3 07:52:12 2001 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:52:12 +0100 Subject: Scottish accents Message-ID: I lost the URL that goes with this article, so here it is in its entirety. Fair use in my opinion, but feel free to sue me. The Scotsman, 3 December 2001 Have kilt, will lilt Wha's like us? Damn few, and they're a' deid etc. Ok, so wha soonds like us? Well, damn few again, but they a' want tae, it seems. Which is why a couple of language experts have come up with the idea of a CD to help people the world over learn to speak with an accurate and realistic Scottish accent. The trouble is, boffins from Edinburgh University have reasoned, is that when people think of Scottish accents, they think Rab C, or Billy Connolly, or Scotty from Star Trek. You could add to that Sean Connery, or Mel Gibson in Braveheart, or for the very elderly, Harry Lauder. Or for the very lacking in taste and musical appreciation, the legendary Andy Stewart. The result of the attempt to fix this terrible injustice is Scotspeak, a CD which shows how to mimic four genuine, non-hammed-up regional accents. The boffins were approached by the Scots Language Resource Centre in Perth after approaches "by actors from home and abroad who wanted to know more about Scots accents". It is expected that thousands of CDs will be winging their way to wannabe actors and actresses the world over. Glassfronted beach- houses in California will echo to impassioned cries of: "Ah sed, gies the boatle or ah 'll murdur ye". (Readers - especially linguistically qualified ones - should take my attempts at transcribing my own accent phonetically as those of a mere punter. However, should anyone be able to guess my exact birthplace, a Rabbie Burns tea towel will be your reward). Meanwhile, Manhattan penthouses will be the backdrop to whispered: "Ah only ivvur luv'd yoo, ye ken that, hen!" And sweat-soaked classes at RADA will see scores of beautiful people chanting: "It wiz yoo! Ah ken it wiz yoo that stole ma jam piece!" Which is all very nice (ye ken) but it will be our undoing. Because why fix something that isn't broken? Or more accurately, something that is clearly broken but which everybody likes? People the world over love Scots accents the way they hear them most often which is from the mouth of Scotty in Star Trek re-runs, wailing: "Ah cannae wurk mirrakuls, captain!" while Kirk pretends he (a) understands and (b) cares. They adore Sean Connery as he slurs his way through an accent that while truly charming, is plainly a work of fiction and a surplus of "sh" sounds. And they think Mel Gibson is just the very dab as Braveheart. So much so that they all think they can do a Scottish accent. It must be the most imitated in the world: seldom have I met anyone who didn 't think they could manage it, from a fat sweaty Turkish lad who was trying to drown me by renting out faulty dive equipment to me on holiday some years ago ("You Scotteesh? Ha! Feerst I teech you thees then I teech you thee sword! Ahahahah!") to every single American I ever met. In the past they would cry "Ah Mishter Blofeld! We meet again" in accents that sound rather as if they're shouting through a mouth of toffees coated in broken glass, and in more recent days they shout "An unyin huz layurz! Shrek huz layurz!" None of these are realistic, but why stop them? Why tell them the right way to do it? What if they then don't actually like us as much and stop giving us a far bigger share of movie space and affection than our nation's size might otherwise merit? Foreigners' perceptions of the way we sound, for some inexplicable reason, make them happy. And trying to sound like us makes them even happier. Why? Maybe the language experts can give us a clue: it is odd - other than for occasional racist comic value. You do not, for example, see Germans enter an office and have people loudly do impressions of them speaking English in an Allo Allo accent. And French people likewise speaking English don't find themselves parodied. But we do, for some reason, and don't take offence (though after the first few dozen American colleagues' cheery attempts at Scotty accents or "There's a moose loose aboot the hoose" sort of thing, patience can wear thin). But a real Scottish accent, well, that's a different matter. Some years ago, in Hong Kong, I worked beside a Chinese woman who spoke flawless Cantonese, Mandarin, English and French. After six months of working together, one day she said pleasantly: "You speak English quite well: what is your first language?" I'm sure my reply was suitably suave and witty, but it wouldn't have mattered anyway, as she admitted that she understood somewhere around half of what I ever said anyway, and usually laughed to humour me. Likewise, on a recent work visit to New York, it was with a heavy heart I learned my hotel was to be on 36th Street. Not that I have anything against 36th Street, I don't, it's perfectly functional. As is 37th which I hate. And 38th and all the other 30s because, rendered through a Scottish accent such as mine, cab drivers who seldom have English as their first language (either), assume it's 50-something. Every time. Having got in late at night and said Fifth Avenue and 36th Street, we set off. I see 30th pass, then 31st, and happily think "home, and sleep". At 32nd I search for cash to pay. At 35th I undo my seatbelt and get ready to get out. We cross 36th at high speed, and I see my hotel blur past. By 37th I'm querying: "Um: 36th?" The cabbie says "Yas! Fifty seven!" By 39th I'm shouting "Thirty six, three, six," and he's yelling "You say fifty seven! You say fifty seven!" By 45th I'm walking homeward, shaken, in an incoherent sort of way. Every time. I feel sure if I attempted it in a Sean Connery accent I might have more luck. "Yesh, I wishhhh to go towardsh sherty-shixth shtreet, and fasht!" would surely get me there, as might a Braveheartish "Parrrrrrk Avenue and Thirrrrrrrty Sixth: ye can take our countrrry, ye can take our taxi farrres ..." Don't get me wrong, I love being Scottish. As hobbies go, it's a winner. And people love it. They just don't understand what I say much of the time. Which is probably no bad thing either. Paul _________________________________ Paul Frank English translation from Chinese, German, French, Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese Tel. +33 450 709 990 - Thollon, France E-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Mon Dec 3 14:40:52 2001 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:40:52 -0500 Subject: amber/yellow lights Message-ID: 74,948,050 Paul Ivsin wrote: [...] > ticket. Then, seeing as the physicist would have to be driving about a > quarter of the speed of light to see a red signal as green, the judge fined > him 269 million dollars for speeding, one dollar for each kilometer per hour > over the limit." Errata?: If the necessary speed for a perceptual shift of red to green is indeed 0.25 c, the fine (assuming a 65 km/h limit) would likely have been closer to $74,948,050. If the fine was levied in dollars while the infraction was measured in km/h, are we to assume that the person was driving in Canada, or in Australia? I suppose that can only be determined if the direction of the Coriolis deflection is known.... From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Dec 3 15:38:36 2001 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:38:36 -0700 Subject: for to Message-ID: From: Beverly Flanigan : >From: Beverly Flanigan : >: Offer this use of the infinitive marker "for to," heard from : >: George W. last August and gleefully written down (because I : >: like it): "[the government] trusts citizens ... for to meet : >: their health care needs." Good South Midland usage, if a bit : >: archaic. : >Archaic?!? Me?! But...but... :-) : Good! Where are you from?... Grew up in Waldorf, Maryland (23 miles SSE of Washington DC, northern edge of Charles County), born 1970. My wife, born 1971, grew up in Aberdeen, Maryland (about a half hour north of Baltimore, Maryland, in Harford County), most definitely does *not* have it. David Bowie Department of Linguistics Assistant Professor Brigham Young University db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Dec 3 15:57:48 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:57:48 -0500 Subject: gap in the OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I know these items aren't as tasty as some of Barry's delectabilia, > but they're pretty important in their own way. Jesse? The OED has drafted an entry for _implicature_ and cites Grice as the originator; it has an extensive definition that I'm sure would satisfy most people here. I don't know when the entry will be published. If it waits until the "I" range comes around, it could be a good long time; if we decide to call it "high-profile" it could get online sooner. Best, Jesse Sheidlower OED From maynor at RA.MSSTATE.EDU Mon Dec 3 16:50:53 2001 From: maynor at RA.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:50:53 -0600 Subject: Job Ad Message-ID: I just received this ad for forwarding to ADS-L: > From: Saira_Fitzgerald > To: "'maynor at ra.msstate.edu'" > Subject: Posting of position > Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:58:00 -0500 > > Dear Natalie, > > We attempted to post the following ad for the Director's position at the > School of Linguistics and Applied Language Studies at Carleton University on > ADS-L. > > The posting was returned. Can you help us? > > Best > > Janna > jfox at cyberus.ca > > > CARLETON UNIVERSITY > > SCHOOL OF LINGUISTICS AND APPLIED LANGUAGE STUDIES: DIRECTOR > > Carleton University invites applications for the position of Director, > School of Linguistics and Applied Language Studies, effective July 1, > 2002, or earlier. Applicants must have a Ph.D., an excellent academic > record in Applied Linguistics or Applied Language Studies, both in > teaching and research (preferably with a specialisation in second > language teaching, second language acquisition or language testing) and > demonstrated administrative abilities. The appointment will be made at > the rank of Associate Professor or Professor for an initial five-year > term. > > The School of Linguistics and Applied language Studies is responsible > for the University's graduate programs in Applied Language Studies and > undergraduate programs in linguistics and applied language studies, > credit courses in all languages offered by the University other than > French, credit and intensive programs in English as a second language, > the Canadian Academic English Language Assessment and other language > testing programs, the Writing Tutorial Service and several other > operations. The School has active linkages with a number of institutions > abroad, and is currently involved in TEFL teacher training programs and > materials development programs with institutions in Cuba, Greenland, > Indonesia and Iran. In addition, the School welcomes a number of > visiting scholars every year who come to take advantage of the research > opportunities available in the School. For more information on the > School, visit: www.carleton.ca/slals. > > All qualified candidates are encouraged to apply. The applications of > Canadian and permanent residents will be given priority. Carleton > University is committed to equality of employment for women, aboriginal > peoples, visible minorities and persons with disabilities. Persons from > these groups are encouraged to apply. > > The position is subject to budgetary approval. Letters of application > or nomination, including the names of three referees and a current > curriculum vitae, should be addressed to: > > Dr. Aviva Freedman, Dean > Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences > Carleton University > Ottawa, Ontario > Canada K1S 5B6 > > Applications will be reviewed as received, but not after March 1, 2002. > From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Mon Dec 3 17:47:23 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:47:23 EST Subject: dork Message-ID: I hope I'm not too late on this... "Dork" as "dick" is not dead. "Monster Squad" (a movie from 1987) used it. "The Wolf-Man wears pants to cover-up his wolf-dork." I still hear it for "penis" occasionally, not often, but definately it's still around. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From pcleary at WANS.NET Mon Dec 3 18:13:51 2001 From: pcleary at WANS.NET (Philip E. Cleary) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:13:51 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: Last night, I watched the WWI movie, "The Last (or Lost) Battalion," on A&E. One of the American soldiers pronounced "defense" as "DEE-fense." Is this pronunciation anachronistic? I was under the impression that "DEE-fense" dates back only a few decades and arose from the spondaic chanting of NY Giants fans. Phil Cleary From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 3 18:38:05 2001 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:38:05 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense In-Reply-To: <002101c17c26$62964020$02a9c540@31j9t01> Message-ID: A semi-related question: does anybody know anything about the pronunciation of "defendant" with fully-realized ash (rather than schwa) in the last syllable? I get the impression it's a Northeast (NYC?) lawyer/police-speak feature, presumably a spelling-pronunciation in origin. I only heard it for the first time a couple of years ago in "Night Falls on Manhattan" (1997), but I'm guessing it's probably been around a while. Is it limited to law-enforcement authorities and legal professionals in certain regions, or...? Ben Fortson On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Philip E. Cleary wrote: > Last night, I watched the WWI movie, "The Last (or Lost) Battalion," on A&E. > One of the American soldiers pronounced "defense" as "DEE-fense." > > Is this pronunciation anachronistic? I was under the impression that > "DEE-fense" dates back only a few decades and arose from the spondaic > chanting of NY Giants fans. > > Phil Cleary > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 3 05:53:33 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:53:33 +0800 Subject: DEE-fense In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:38 PM -0500 12/3/01, Benjamin Fortson wrote: >A semi-related question: does anybody know anything about the >pronunciation of "defendant" with fully-realized ash (rather than schwa) >in the last syllable? I get the impression it's a Northeast (NYC?) >lawyer/police-speak feature, presumably a spelling-pronunciation in >origin. I only heard it for the first time a couple of years ago in "Night >Falls on Manhattan" (1997), but I'm guessing it's probably been around a >while. Is it limited to law-enforcement authorities and legal >professionals in certain regions, or...? > >Ben Fortson > I've noticed that unreduced vowel on TV court shows too, e.g. A&E's 100 Centre Street. It's as if the attorneys and judges want to make sure the court reporter gets the spelling right. larry From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Dec 3 19:03:54 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:03:54 -0800 Subject: DEE-fense In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I first encountered this as a juror at the Essex County Court in Newark, New Jersey. The judge not only pronounced the final syllable with an unreduced [ae], he gave it strong primary stress: "the dee-fen-DANT." I'm sure not only the judge used this pronunciation, but I can't say for sure that EVERYBODY connected with the court used it. This was certainly not the everyday local pronunciation outside of court, and I strongly suspect that even the judge would have slipped into the "normal" [di'fend at nt] pronunciation outside of working hours. Peter --On Monday, December 3, 2001 1:53 PM +0800 Laurence Horn wrote: > At 1:38 PM -0500 12/3/01, Benjamin Fortson wrote: >> A semi-related question: does anybody know anything about the >> pronunciation of "defendant" with fully-realized ash (rather than schwa) >> in the last syllable? I get the impression it's a Northeast (NYC?) >> lawyer/police-speak feature, presumably a spelling-pronunciation in >> origin. I only heard it for the first time a couple of years ago in >> "Night Falls on Manhattan" (1997), but I'm guessing it's probably been >> around a while. Is it limited to law-enforcement authorities and legal >> professionals in certain regions, or...? >> >> Ben Fortson >> > I've noticed that unreduced vowel on TV court shows too, e.g. A&E's > 100 Centre Street. It's as if the attorneys and judges want to make > sure the court reporter gets the spelling right. > > larry **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 3 19:05:41 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:05:41 -0800 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: phil cleary: >Last night, I watched the WWI movie, "The Last (or Lost) Battalion," >on A&E. One of the American soldiers pronounced "defense" as >"DEE-fense." >Is this pronunciation anachronistic? I was under the impression that >"DEE-fense" dates back only a few decades and arose from the >spondaic chanting of NY Giants fans. in addition to the sports chants (do we really know that giants fans were the source of DEfense in this context?), the forestressed pronunciation has a long history as a variant in parts of the south and south midlands, along with POlice, TENnessee, INsurance, and a bunch of others. is there a good survey of the words subject to this front-shifting, with some indication of their geographical and social distribution? (i suppose some account of the history would be too much to ask for.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Mon Dec 3 19:28:06 2001 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:28:06 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: Where would the stress fall in "police car"? Would it be "POlice car"? And another one, come to think of it. How would people in these areas say, say, "southern Tennessee"? "SOUthern TENnessee"? >...the forestressed pronunciation has a long history as a variant > in parts of the south and south midlands, along with POlice, > TENnessee, INsurance, and a bunch of others. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Dec 3 19:28:31 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:28:31 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense In-Reply-To: <000801c17c30$a28cdea0$5feefea9@billiondesktop> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Billionbridges.com wrote: >And another one, come to think of it. How would people >in these areas say, say, "southern Tennessee"? >"SOUthern TENnessee"? There is no "southern TENNessee" _ only East, Middle, and West. Bethany From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Mon Dec 3 19:41:45 2001 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:41:45 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: "Philip E. Cleary" wrote: > > "DEE-fense" dates back only a few decades and arose from the spondaic > chanting of NY Giants fans. In this case, the word is spelled. "D-‡‡‡‡‡‡" (for those of you who can't view MIME-encoded messages, a string of double-cross characters, Alt+0135, to simulate the simulated fence often held up by the stadium DEE-fense chanters, of which we have our share here in Pittsburgh, too, thank you very much). From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Mon Dec 3 19:53:14 2001 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:53:14 -0500 Subject: "It's my cut" Message-ID: Had drinks in a pub on Yonge Street in Toronto the other day (that would be a "pub" as in an establishment serving alcohol that intentionally attempts to mimic the atmosphere and decor associated with pubs in England - whether they do it authentically or not over here I can't say - our Canadian use of the word "pub" is the same as yours Stateside in this regard) and was asked by our server if we wouldn't mind paying the bill up to that point, as it was her "cut". Her "cut", we inquired further? Did that mean she was finished her shift? Yes, she replied. In the restaurant and bar industry, according to this server, at least in Toronto, when one finishes work one says "it's my cut", or, "I'm getting cut at 11:00." I live 50 kilometres south of Toronto, and have never heard this usage before. Granted, I don't have much experience in the food serving industry, but I wonder if other ADS-L members have ever heard this expression before? _______________________ Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo "A Billion Bridges" Chinese<>English Translation Services Tel: 905-308-9389 Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs) Web: www.billionbridges.com Email: translation at billionbridges.com From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Mon Dec 3 19:45:41 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:45:41 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: I have to admit that when I first saw this email, I was completely flummoxed by it, to the point of wondering if it were a joke. I say poLICE and inSURance, but it was inconceivable to me that Tennessee could be pronounced any way other than TENnessee, whether or not preceded by SOUthern. SouTHERN TenNESsee just didn't sound plausible. I had to consult the online American Heritage to realize that some people actually say TennesSEE. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: Billionbridges.com [SMTP:translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM] > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 2:28 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: DEE-fense > > Where would the stress fall in "police car"? Would > it be "POlice car"? > > And another one, come to think of it. How would people > in these areas say, say, "southern Tennessee"? > "SOUthern TENnessee"? > > >...the forestressed pronunciation has a long history as a variant > > in parts of the south and south midlands, along with POlice, > > TENnessee, INsurance, and a bunch of others. > > > ******************************************* > * This email has been scanned for viruses * > * Stradley Ronon Stevens & Young, LLP * > ******************************************* > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Dec 3 20:22:39 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:22:39 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >A semi-related question: does anybody know anything about the >pronunciation of "defendant" with fully-realized ash (rather than schwa) >in the last syllable? I get the impression it's a Northeast (NYC?) >lawyer/police-speak feature, presumably a spelling-pronunciation in >origin. I only heard it for the first time a couple of years ago in "Night >Falls on Manhattan" (1997), but I'm guessing it's probably been around a >while. Is it limited to law-enforcement authorities and legal >professionals in certain regions, or...? > >Ben Fortson ~~~~~~ This reminds me of a somewhat similar instance of spelling-pronunciation: a bit of radio spam that refers to the National Association of RealtORs. I assume most people give the last syllable a schwa.....? A.Murie billionbridges says: "I live 50 kilometres south of Toronto".........on a houseboat? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 3 08:06:31 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:06:31 +0800 Subject: DEE-fense In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:22 PM -0500 12/3/01, sagehen wrote: >... >billionbridges says: "I live 50 kilometres south of Toronto".........on a >houseboat? Well, if you can drive south from L.A. and end up in San Diego (or Mexico) and not wet, you can do the same in Toronto, only there "south" probably means WSW instead of ESE. larry From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Dec 3 21:14:41 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:14:41 -0500 Subject: "Little Italy" Message-ID: A few months ago, I think, we were discussing "Little Italy" and whether it referred to more than the one centered around New York's Mulberry Street. Soon afterwards I read some interesting examples which I never got around to posting, so I do so now. These are from the new publication of Joseph "McSorley's Wonderful Saloon" Mitchell's _My Ears are Bent,_ a collection of his newspaper writing first published in 1938. The pieces are undated but "a1938" should be accurate. a1938 J. Mitchell in _My Ears are Bent_ II. ii. 38 If the war is between Italy and Ethiopia, for instance, the idea is "How do the Italians in New York City feel about the war?" When a reporter is assigned to such a story he goes on a hurried tour of the ginmills in the nearest Italian neighborhood (Mulberry Street if he works for The World-Telegram and Harlem's Little Italy if he works for The Herald Tribune). and, even better, a1938 J. Mitchell in _My Ears are Bent_ VII. iii. 225 Strife over the Mussolini program split the Italians in the country into factions and precipitated murders and bombings and civil wars in a hundred Little Italys. Jesse Sheidlower OED From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Dec 3 21:34:15 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:34:15 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense In-Reply-To: <587086.3216366234@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: What's normal about an [e] (lax midfront) before a nasal? Surely the normal pronunciation is [d at fInd@nt]. Just because there are more abnormal than normal people in the world shouldn't deter those of us who know we are normal. dInIs >I first encountered this as a juror at the Essex County Court in Newark, >New Jersey. The judge not only pronounced the final syllable with an >unreduced [ae], he gave it strong primary stress: "the dee-fen-DANT." I'm >sure not only the judge used this pronunciation, but I can't say for sure >that EVERYBODY connected with the court used it. This was certainly not >the everyday local pronunciation outside of court, and I strongly suspect >that even the judge would have slipped into the "normal" [di'fend at nt] >pronunciation outside of working hours. > >Peter > >--On Monday, December 3, 2001 1:53 PM +0800 Laurence Horn > wrote: > >>At 1:38 PM -0500 12/3/01, Benjamin Fortson wrote: >>>A semi-related question: does anybody know anything about the >>>pronunciation of "defendant" with fully-realized ash (rather than schwa) >>>in the last syllable? I get the impression it's a Northeast (NYC?) >>>lawyer/police-speak feature, presumably a spelling-pronunciation in >>>origin. I only heard it for the first time a couple of years ago in >>>"Night Falls on Manhattan" (1997), but I'm guessing it's probably been >>>around a while. Is it limited to law-enforcement authorities and legal >>>professionals in certain regions, or...? >>> >>>Ben Fortson >>> >>I've noticed that unreduced vowel on TV court shows too, e.g. A&E's >>100 Centre Street. It's as if the attorneys and judges want to make >>sure the court reporter gets the spelling right. >> >>larry > > > >**************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 3 21:35:40 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:35:40 -0800 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: john baker: >I have to admit that when I first saw this email, I was completely >flummoxed by it, to the point of wondering if it were a joke. I say >poLICE and inSURance, but it was inconceivable to me that Tennessee >could be pronounced any way other than TENnessee... well, it's known that the geographical and social distribution of the forestressed variants is different for different words. TENnessee seems to be widespread enough to have made it into u.s. dictionaries, while many others haven't. arnold From funex79 at SLONET.ORG Mon Dec 3 21:43:36 2001 From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:43:36 -0800 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: I more often hear realtors pronounced REEL a tors. ----- Original Message ----- From: "sagehen" To: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:22 PM Subject: Re: DEE-fense > >A semi-related question: does anybody know anything about the > >pronunciation of "defendant" with fully-realized ash (rather than schwa) > >in the last syllable? I get the impression it's a Northeast (NYC?) > >lawyer/police-speak feature, presumably a spelling-pronunciation in > >origin. I only heard it for the first time a couple of years ago in "Night > >Falls on Manhattan" (1997), but I'm guessing it's probably been around a > >while. Is it limited to law-enforcement authorities and legal > >professionals in certain regions, or...? > > > >Ben Fortson > ~~~~~~ > This reminds me of a somewhat similar instance of spelling-pronunciation: > a bit of radio spam that refers to the National Association of RealtORs. I > assume most people give the last syllable a schwa.....? > A.Murie > billionbridges says: "I live 50 kilometres south of Toronto".........on a > houseboat? > From Ittaob at AOL.COM Mon Dec 3 22:59:26 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:59:26 EST Subject: "Little Italy" Message-ID: The book accompanying an exhibit on Italian-Americans in New York at the NY Historical Society in 1999, "The Italians of New York," has a chapter entitled "Peopling 'Little Italy'" that has the following remarks: "By World War I, observers counted over 70 centers of concentrated Italian settlement -- called "Little Italies" -- in all the boroughs of the consolidating city. . .The earliest Little Italy remarked upon by commentators like Jacob Riis in the 1880s and 18909s -- the Mulberry Street district that extended north from the Five Points -- stood out in part because it jostled up against neighborhoods where other immigrants marked as "different" already clustered." Steve Boatti From pcleary at WANS.NET Mon Dec 3 23:10:43 2001 From: pcleary at WANS.NET (Philip E. Cleary) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 18:10:43 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: You will hear some Massachusetts lawyers saying it that way. From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Mon Dec 3 23:50:07 2001 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 18:50:07 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: A Torontonian would say that Hamilton is west of Toronto because of the layout of the streets there, but a Hamiltonian would say that Toronto is north of Hamilton because the of the layout of the streets in Hamilton. For us here, east means Niagara Falls and Buffalo. To be more accurate I suppose I should say "southwest of Toronto", though it really is more south than west. > >billionbridges says: "I live 50 kilometres south of Toronto".........on a > >houseboat? > > Well, if you can drive south from L.A. and end up in San Diego (or > Mexico) and not wet, you can do the same in Toronto, only there > "south" probably means WSW instead of ESE. > > larry From hstahlke at ATT.NET Mon Dec 3 23:56:44 2001 From: hstahlke at ATT.NET (hstahlke at ATT.NET) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 23:56:44 +0000 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: Related to this is the question of whether the /t/ gets laxed to [D]. I've heard College of Education types say [EdjukejtOr] with secondary stresses on both of the last two syllables and tertiary on the antepenult. I've heard that from local TV news readers. Same with "administrator" and "executor". They all occur also with primary-weak-secondary-weak pattern with a laxed dental. Is this anything more than a hyper- correct spelling pronunciation? I've also heard "informant" with an ash. It seems to me that "informant", as a pejorative term for informer/rat/stoolie/squealer/etc. goes back to Watergate. At least I remember that up till 1973 we, in African linguistics, routinely used the term informant for our language consultants. At the Annual Conference on African Linguistics at UFlorida in '73, the conference carried on an hour-long discussion on what to call our language consultants. "Informant" had just recently become pejorative so that many of us didn't want to use the term. One unfortunate non-Francophone participant suggested "collaborator". A former dean raised budgetary reservations about "consultant", but I think that's the one we ended up with. Herb Stahlke Ball State University > I more often hear realtors pronounced REEL a tors. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sagehen" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:22 PM > Subject: Re: DEE-fense > > > > >A semi-related question: does anybody know anything about the > > >pronunciation of "defendant" with fully-realized ash (rather than schwa) > > >in the last syllable? I get the impression it's a Northeast (NYC?) > > >lawyer/police-speak feature, presumably a spelling-pronunciation in > > >origin. I only heard it for the first time a couple of years ago in > "Night > > >Falls on Manhattan" (1997), but I'm guessing it's probably been around a > > >while. Is it limited to law-enforcement authorities and legal > > >professionals in certain regions, or...? > > > > > >Ben Fortson > > ~~~~~~ > > This reminds me of a somewhat similar instance of spelling-pronunciation: > > a bit of radio spam that refers to the National Association of RealtORs. > I > > assume most people give the last syllable a schwa.....? > > A.Murie > > billionbridges says: "I live 50 kilometres south of Toronto".........on a > > houseboat? > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 4 03:37:35 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:37:35 EST Subject: Hackademy; Build-your-own theater quote Message-ID: HACKADEMY Today's NEW YORK POST, 3 December 2001, pg. 25, col. 1 (www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/35660.htm), describes a school for would-be hackers and cyber-pirates called "The Hackademy." It's in France, where I didn't think American slang was allowed in school. -------------------------------------------------------- BUILD-YOUR-OWN THEATER QUOTE New York City is on high alert. I just passed several policemen by Bloomingdale's. David Shulman is OK; he shakes a little. I saw this ad on the subway from Brooklyn. To advertise a play, you used to need good reviews. Now, all you need are a bunch of words, which you can cut and paste as you wish: HIP YOUNG UNFLINCHING SEXY WICKED DARING & COMPULSIVELY WATCHABLE (In smaller print, five sources are given for the above seven terms--ed.) THE JOURNAL NEWS THE NEW YORK TIMES ASSOCIATED PRESS THE STAR LEDGER NEWSDAY _THE SHAPE OF THINGS_ by Neil LaBute Promenade Theatre Broadway at 76 Street TheShapeofThingsoff-Broadway.com From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Tue Dec 4 03:58:53 2001 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:58:53 EST Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: I wrote about this -or-ending business in an AS article a while back; they are spelling pronunciations, and my theory was that the more unfamiliar the word, the greater the likelihood that the spelling pronunciation would kick in and stick. For example I don't think anyone would use the /-or/ pronunciation for 'doctor, actor, tutor' but I hear it all the time for 'mentor' which is somewhat erudite compared to those everyday words. Then take a really unusual word like 'servitor' and nearly everyone, even a college professor, will use /-or/. Dale Coye The College of NJ From paul at IMPLICATURE.COM Tue Dec 4 04:08:37 2001 From: paul at IMPLICATURE.COM (Paul Ivsin) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:08:37 -0600 Subject: "It's my cut" Message-ID: I passed this one along to my wife, who worked at various restaurants and owned a bar (not a "pub" in the sense given, though) here in Chicago until recently. Her reply, in pertinent part: > Most places I've worked at do use cut: I've just been cut, > tell Bridget she's about to get cut (like one more table & > then that's the last one I get). Occassionally I've heard > people use it in the present progressive: "I'm cutting now." > (I'm stopping now) which I always thought sounded funny > & never used it myself as either you're cut or you're still > taking tables... I've never heard it as described below though. Hope this helps. Paul (800someodd kilometers WSW of Toronto) ... ... ... Paul Ivsin paul at ivsin.com ... ... ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Billionbridges.com" To: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 1:53 PM Subject: "It's my cut" Had drinks in a pub on Yonge Street in Toronto the other day (that would be a "pub" as in an establishment serving alcohol that intentionally attempts to mimic the atmosphere and decor associated with pubs in England - whether they do it authentically or not over here I can't say - our Canadian use of the word "pub" is the same as yours Stateside in this regard) and was asked by our server if we wouldn't mind paying the bill up to that point, as it was her "cut". Her "cut", we inquired further? Did that mean she was finished her shift? Yes, she replied. In the restaurant and bar industry, according to this server, at least in Toronto, when one finishes work one says "it's my cut", or, "I'm getting cut at 11:00." I live 50 kilometres south of Toronto, and have never heard this usage before. Granted, I don't have much experience in the food serving industry, but I wonder if other ADS-L members have ever heard this expression before? _______________________ Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo "A Billion Bridges" Chinese<>English Translation Services Tel: 905-308-9389 Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs) Web: www.billionbridges.com Email: translation at billionbridges.com From realitygdk at MSN.COM Tue Dec 4 04:50:18 2001 From: realitygdk at MSN.COM (realitygdk at MSN.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 20:50:18 -0800 Subject: Change of e-mail address to Message-ID: Hi! I am writing to let you know that I have a new e-mail address: . You can use it to send me e-mail and to send me instant messages using MSN Messenger or MSN Explorer's Online Contacts. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 4 06:30:38 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 01:30:38 EST Subject: C.M.P.; Turtle Candy; Penne Pasta Message-ID: The menus in New York Technical College's Ursula Schwein Library were most all from the 1980s and 1990s. I looked through most of them in a few hours. You have to get past the guards to get into the building, go to the fourth floor, and then get approval again to enter the library...And then five people came up to me and thought I worked there. -------------------------------------------------------- C.M.P. C.M.P.--a sundae of Chocolate, Marshmallow, and Peanuts--is on the menu of Betty Brown's, 622 Broadway (1987). A web search shows that it's popular in Pennsylvania. Heisler's Cloverleaf Dairy claims to have registered CMP, but I couldn't find it in the U. S. Patent & Trademark Office. -------------------------------------------------------- TURTLE CANDY (continued) We discussed this last year. Nestle's, at www.nestlenewbiz.com/producs/confecions/turtles.html, claims it's been around 70 years. The USPTO has a Nestle's/DeMet's Inc. filing claiming first use on February 7, 1945. It's No. 71481318. -------------------------------------------------------- PENNE PASTA There were a lot of similar Italian 1980s menus. Unfortunately, many of the menus were not dated. Those "tiramisu" were useless. IL CORTILE, 125 Mulberry Street, has a menu from 1980 but "Prices listed are from 1979." Penne con Rugda... 7.50 Z-T con zucchini al Forno... 9.00 (Interesting "Z-T" for "ziti"--ed.) From FIORELLO'S menu, September 1983: Penne Carbonara... 9.50 (with Italian Bacon, Scallions, Olive Oil and Egg) -------------------------------------------------------- CROISSANDWICH A Feb. 1, 1985 menu from CROISSANT AND CO., 200 West 57th Street, has "Croissandwiches." USPTO records show Sara Lee/Burger King registering "croissan'wich" and "croissandwich" with a first use of 19830926. Also on the menu is "New, Palmiers (Rabbit ears) 1.15." -------------------------------------------------------- GEORGIA SALAD AT GAGE & TOLLNER "Georgia Salad" is on several Gage & Tollner menus. This Brooklyn institution goes back to 1879. The first G&T menu (undated) offers Georgia Salad for 20 cents; "Gold Seal" 1916 is on the drink portion of the menu. -------------------------------------------------------- SANKACHINO & MOCHACHINO (1984) The menu for P. CEE'S, 161-50 Crossbay Boulevard, Howard Beach, from 1984 has: SANKACHINEO (steam milk with Sanka) MOCHACHINO (steamed cocoa with Espresso) -------------------------------------------------------- CAPPUCCINO ALLA STEGGA (THE WITCH) PICCIOLO (established 1936), 2nd Street and Collins Avenue, Miami Beach, has a menu with photos of the restaurant in 1936 through 1970. It was one of Miami's first and largest Italian restaurants. The undated menu is probably from about 1970. SURF & TURF Filet Mignon & Lobster 10.95 CAPPUCCINO ALL STREGGA (The Witch) (1/2 Steamed Milk + 1/2 Espresso, Anisette Liqueur, Whipped Cream topped with Stregga) 2.50 From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Dec 4 16:03:44 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:03:44 -0500 Subject: "Little Italy" In-Reply-To: <16d.500ccd1.293d5dce@aol.com> Message-ID: Merriam-Webster's earliest cite for "Little Italy" doesn't go quite as far back as the 1890s, but it comes pretty close. This one refers to the NYC neighborhood: When at last the heavy wagons start to leave the pier and the "specked" potatoes are turned out on the boards these Italians squat about the gift, draw out from somewhere long, sharp knives ground at the sidewalk mills of "Little Italy," and begin to slash, cut and peel. Such are their manners -- long years of training have developed an ideal etiquette for these occasions -- that they make no rude grabs for the largest and best speciments, but take the poor and the less poor as they come, all the time preserving that silence which the women of Mulberry-st. [sic] deem the height of good taste at gatherings like these. N.J. Trib. Sup. Feb. 11, 1900 Here's our earliest for the generic use: In the mews round about the Potteries are the remnants of the Italian colony that drifted here some years ago, when Little Italy in Clerkenwell began to be encroached upon by the modern builder. The Strand No. 161 (1909) Page 549 Joanne Despres From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Tue Dec 4 15:43:52 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:43:52 -0500 Subject: Laddering (of stock) Message-ID: The New York Times article, which is available at http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/02/business/yourmoney/02SUIT.html describes the alleged practice of requiring brokerage customers, as a condition of receiving allocations in an initial public offering, to purchase additional shares in the aftermarket at progressively higher prices. As far as I can tell, this use of the term was invented by the lawyers discussed in the article. The earliest use I've seen is in a press release from the law firm of Lovell & Stewart, LLP, carried on Business Wire on March 14, 2001: "The requirement that customers make additional purchases at progressively higher prices as the price of VA Linux stock rocketed upward (a practice known on Wall Street as "laddering") was intended to (and did) drive Linux's share price up to artificially high levels." Previously, "laddering" was applied only to the legitimate investment technique of staggering bond maturities, as shown by this quote from the December 1, 1987, issue of Money: "If income is your chief goal, but you still worry about possible drops in the value of your portfolio, you might stagger your maturities even more - a technique known as laddering. You might, say, buy bonds with two-, four-, six-, eight- and 10-year maturities if you have sufficient capital. If rates rise, you could reinvest the short-term bonds at the higher rates as they mature. On the other hand, if rates fall, your longer-term bonds will appreciate in value." John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [SMTP:Bapopik at AOL.COM] > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 1:13 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Laddering (of stock) > > "Laddering" is explained in "Flood of Lawsuits Puts Underwriters in > Cross Hairs," by Jonathan D. Glater, SUNDAY NEW YORK TIMES, business > section, 2 December 2001, on www.nytimes.com. > Supposedly, during the 1990s, internet and other stocks were "laddered" > to go higher, creating a stock bubble. > > From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Tue Dec 4 15:55:31 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:55:31 -0500 Subject: "Little Italy" Message-ID: A quick search of MOA Cornell finds "Little Italy" in NYC mentioned in The North American review, September 1891, 153 #418, in Mrs. Mary A. Livermore's Cooperative Womanhood in the State, p.293. http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=%2Fmoa%2Fnora%2Fnora0153%2F&tif=00297.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DABQ7578-0153-30 Robert Louis Stevenson is one of the authors of a comment, in The Wrecker about the Little Italy area of San Francisco, in 1891, Scribner's magazine, 10 #4 (October), p.429. http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=%2Fmoa%2Fscri%2Fscri0010%2F&tif=00437.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DAFR7379-0010-47 The "Little Italy" of Ellis Island is mentioned in at least two MOA Cornell sources. The concept of a room being a "little Italy", in Boston, is presented in The Atlantic monthly, 23 #138, April 1969, in W. D. Howell's Doorstep Acquaintance, on p.485. "as we had made a little Italy together" http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?root=%2Fmoa%2Fatla%2Fatla0023%2F&tif=00491.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DABK2934-0023-73&coll=moa&frames=1&view=50 Most of the other sources presented at MOA Cornell are from the 1890s. I didn't check all of them. George Cole Shippensburg University From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Tue Dec 4 23:48:54 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:48:54 -0800 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: Sagehen: > I more often hear realtors pronounced REEL a tors. I've heard "reel-a-tors" too. Right here in Rain City, otherwise known as Seattle. I think this is pretty much in the same vein as nucular and libary. and julery. Anne G From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 5 00:59:58 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 19:59:58 -0500 Subject: "Little Italy" In-Reply-To: <3C0CF1F3.C4F47F77@ark.ship.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, GSCole wrote: > A quick search of MOA Cornell finds "Little Italy" in NYC mentioned in > The North American review, September 1891, 153 #418, in Mrs. Mary A. > Livermore's Cooperative Womanhood in the State, p.293. The New York "Little Italy" is mentioned in Science, Vol. 9, No. 226. (Jun. 3, 1887), p. 530. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Dec 5 01:14:06 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:14:06 -0500 Subject: "Little Italy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 07:59:58PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, GSCole wrote: > > > A quick search of MOA Cornell finds "Little Italy" in NYC mentioned in > > The North American review, September 1891, 153 #418, in Mrs. Mary A. > > Livermore's Cooperative Womanhood in the State, p.293. > > The New York "Little Italy" is mentioned in Science, Vol. 9, No. 226. > (Jun. 3, 1887), p. 530. That's _a_ New York "Little Italy". It's one on what is now the Upper East Side, between Madison and Fifth near Central Park; it's not the one around Mulberry Street that is now usually considered _the_ Little Italy in New York. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 5 01:33:50 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:33:50 EST Subject: Larousse Gastronomique (2001) Message-ID: LAROUSSE GASTRONOMIQUE: THE WORLD'S GREATEST CULINARY ENCYCLOPEDIA COMPLETELY REVISED AND UPDATED Clarkson Potter, NY hardcover, 1350 pages $75 (Amazon has 30% off) 2001 Here it is. It's out. The completely revised and updated version of the "world's greatest culinary encyclopedia." It says so right on the cover. Pg. 611: _HOT DOG_ (...) The name "hot dog" was coined around 1900 by the (Pg. 612--ed.) American cartoonist T. A. Dorgan, when he drew talking sausages resembling dachshunds. Just pitiful. What exactly is this book trying to accomplish? Go to Google.com, type in the food or cuisine you want, and you'll find more information, in greater depth, with greater accuracy, than in LAROUSSE. And for free! "Martini" isn't in the index. The "cocktail" entry is short and useless. So much for drinks. "Crepes Suzette" is still wrong. There are almost no etymologies or dates given. For example, "taco" is six lines of drivel, with no dates or etymologies whatsoever. There are many full-color, full-page photos in the book, but they all look like padding. They have no historical significance to the food at all. I'm looking for the bibliography...there's gotta be one in here somewhere.... Many recipes are given, but where do they come from? Why not give historical recipes, from the old cookbooks, and cite them? The entries lead you to no books or articles on the subject. I guess that's for the bibliography. I'm still looking for a bibliography.... Here's an example of what I mean, from pg. 304: CIOPPINO A dish from San Francisco consisting of a stew of white fish, large prawns (shrimp), clams and mussels, with a garlic, tomato and white-wine base. Yes, that's the entire entry. What does "cioppino" mean? Is it Italian? Does it come from Genoa? When was it first served? Where can I find a recipe? If you type "cioppino" into Google and pick a response at random, you'd be hard-pressed to find anything worse. I don't know what Andrew Smith has in mind for the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK (2003). I'll probably have lunch with him about it next week. My advice is, do NOT follow LAROUSSE GASTRONOMIQUE. Each entry should have dates, cites, historical recipes, and an historical photo if possible. It's gotta be a reference work that people should cite as authoritative. It's gotta have original work that you won't find anywhere else. And leave the "greatest culinary encyclopedia" puffery off the cover. People will decide for themselves. If you don't like Amazon's 30% discount, check the Strand used bookstore in a few months. You'll probably find a whole shelf. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 5 02:04:41 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:04:41 EST Subject: Jahn's restaurant slang (1983) Message-ID: This menu was in the New York City Technical College's library. It's from Jahn's (established since 1897), the famous soda fountain known for its "kitchen sink," "boiler maker," and other creations that I described here before. The menu is from 1983, but has an old-time look to it and tries (unsuccessfully) to describe origins of the "soda fountain," the "egg cream," and others. This, on page 3, is difficult to read, but still interesting: _LOOK ALIVE_ _Order It In Code!_ _CUSTOMER_ _CLERK_ _Soda_ _Plate_ _Sundae_ Vanilla............White.....In......Up......On Chocolate..........One or Black.In...Up......On Strawberry.........Straw.....In......Up......On Coffee.............Mocha.....In......Up......On Walnut.............Nut.......In......Up......On Lemon..............Sour......In......Up......On Black Raspberry....Purple....In......Up......On Pistachio..........Green.....In......Up......On Butter Pecan.......Butter....In......Up......On Peach..............Georgia...In......Up......On Cherry Vanilla.....Red.......In......Up......On _COMBINATIONS_ _SODAS_ _PLATES_ _SUNDAES_ Chocolate Syrup with Vanilla Ice Cream........Half Chocolate Syrup with Strawberry Ice Cream.....Flatbush Chocolate Syrup with Walnut Ice Cream.........Bayonne Chocolate and Coffee Syrup with Coffee Ice Cream...Broadway Pineapple Syrup with Chocolate Ice Cream......Hoboken All Others By Color or Name _EXAMPLES_ Sodas--4 In--1 Half, 1 Straw, 1 Hobo, 1 Reverse Sundaes--4 On--1 Green, 1 Purple, 1 Rum, 1 Sour Plates--4 Up--1 Flatbush, 1 Broadway, 1 Bayonne, 1 White Marsh--Always on Black Fudge--Always on White Split--Always on White and Straw Unless Otherwise Specified Large Coke--Stretch with: Vanilla--Blonde; Chocolate-- Brunette; Cherry--Redhead; Lemon--Sour Root Beer--R. B. Pink Lady--Lady Orangeade--O. A. Lemonade--L. A. Orange Juice--O. J. Line Rickey--Rickey Lemon and Lime--L. L. Plain Seltzer--21 Hot Chocolate--51-2-3 etc. (See RHHDAS for "51"--ed.) No Ice or Nuts--86 (See RHHDAS for "86"--ed.) No Whipped Cream--Sundaes--Plain; Sodas--86 Cake with Ice Cream--a la White, Black, etc. Cake with Whipped Cream--Spank It Float--Hang--Same as Sodas--Plates Malted--Burn--Same as Sodas--Plates Frosted--Freeze--Same as Sodas--Plates Frosted Malted Float--Mutilate It (Also on the menu: "COOLERIZERS" such as lemonade and Sprite and Tab. "TWOSDAY... 3.85" is "TWO SUNDAES AND A SODA"--ed.) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 5 05:17:34 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:17:34 -0800 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: some additions to the southern/south midlands/aave list of forestressed nouns: DEtroit, UMbrella, JUly, CIgar, HOtel/MOtel. (there are a also fair number with alternative stressings, both presumably "general american", listed in u.s. dictionaries: address, moustache, romance, chauffeur [all nouns].) a grad student here points out that fasold & wolfram (1970) list POlice, HOtel, and JUly as representative shifted words in aave ("Negro dialect" back then), and that others have cited this same list, somewhat extended, since then. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Ittaob at AOL.COM Wed Dec 5 13:35:57 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:35:57 EST Subject: "Little Italy" Message-ID: In a message dated 12/4/01 8:14:24 PM, jester at PANIX.COM writes: << That's _a_ New York "Little Italy". It's one on what is now the Upper East Side, between Madison and Fifth near Central Park; >> The Upper E. Side Little Italy was between First and Second Avenues in the vicinity of E. 116th St. Steve Boatti From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Dec 5 14:26:49 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:26:49 -0500 Subject: "Little Italy" In-Reply-To: <109.9c50913.293f7cbd@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 08:35:57AM -0500, Ittaob at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 12/4/01 8:14:24 PM, jester at PANIX.COM writes: > > << That's _a_ New York "Little Italy". It's one on what is now the Upper > East Side, between Madison and Fifth near Central Park; >> > > The Upper E. Side Little Italy was between First and Second Avenues in the > vicinity of E. 116th St. The cite for which Fred Shapiro posted the bibliography quite clearly refers to a Little Italy between Madison and Fifth near Central Park. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Ittaob at AOL.COM Wed Dec 5 14:40:31 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:40:31 EST Subject: "Little Italy" Message-ID: In a message dated 12/5/01 9:34:48 AM, jester at PANIX.COM writes: << The cite for which Fred Shapiro posted the bibliography quite clearly refers to a Little Italy between Madison and Fifth near Central Park. >> Then there must have been more than one, for there was absolutely one at around 116th and First. Remnants of it still survive in the form of restaurants, funeral homes, etc. It was quite famous in its day. Steve From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 5 02:18:03 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:18:03 +0800 Subject: "Little Italy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:40 AM -0500 12/5/01, Ittaob at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 12/5/01 9:34:48 AM, jester at PANIX.COM writes: > ><< The cite for which Fred Shapiro posted the bibliography quite clearly >refers to a Little Italy between Madison and Fifth near Central Park. > >> > >Then there must have been more than one, for there was absolutely one at >around 116th and First. Remnants of it still survive in the form of >restaurants, funeral homes, etc. It was quite famous in its day. > Right; that's the one we discussed in some detail earlier, as I recall--home of Rao's, counterexample to my ignorant claim that "Little Italy" is a name rather than a description, and that there could only be one (the Lower East Side/Mulberry St.) one in Manhattan, etc. Evidently there's no constraint on how many there can be even on the upper East Side (although perhaps those two were not coevals). Let a thousand Little Italys (Italies?) bloom! larry From Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM Wed Dec 5 21:17:56 2001 From: Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:17:56 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: Does anyone know how the phrase "Mickey Mouse" came to describe "a person or organization with a lot of poorly-justified, nit-picking rules"? IMHO the cartoon character isn't like that and never has been. (This question arises from a discussion of intellectual property rights on another list I'm on. It is completely unrelated to today's being the hundredth anniversary of the birth of Walter Elias Disney.) -- Mark From e.pears2 at VERIZON.NET Wed Dec 5 21:41:13 2001 From: e.pears2 at VERIZON.NET (Enid Pearsons) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:41:13 -0500 Subject: gap in the OED Message-ID: It's in RHUD, too. I suppose I shouldn't care anymore, but... Enid Formerly of... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barnhart" To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:17 PM Subject: Re: gap in the OED | preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU,Net writes: | >Do you mean to say 'implicature' is not in the dictionary? | | >dInIs (implicaturing all over the place) | | implicature is | | AHD 4th edition + | | Regards, | David | | barnhart at highlands.com From clean at CTV.ES Wed Dec 5 22:11:00 2001 From: clean at CTV.ES (!PUBLICIDAD) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 23:11:00 +0100 Subject: POZOS SEPTICOS - ACTIVADORES BIOLGICOS PARA ELIMINAR OLORES PUBLICIDAD! Message-ID: Gasolineras, Estaciones de tren, Hoteles, Chalets, Turismo rural, etc... Para evitar olores en los urinarios, retretes, sifones de los urinarios, en el sif�n del suelo, en el propio suelo y los procedentes del pozo s�ptico e impedir que las grasas taponen el drenaje inutilizando el pozo. Activadores biol�gicos naturales para eliminar olores en pozos s�pticos, depuradoras, etc. Tratamientos de Purines, Alpechin, Alpeorujo etc. http://www.ctv.es/clean_world_hispania/ http://www.ctv.es/clean_world_hispania/odour.htm http://www.ctv.es/clean_world_hispania/fosassepticaspozossepticos.htm http://www.ctv.es/clean_world_hispania/enviosPOZOSNEGROS.html http://www.ctv.es/clean_world_hispania/PEDIDO.htm �PUBLICIDAD! Baja autom�tica en clean at ctv.es indicando REMOVER Clean World Hispania Poligono Asuar�n nave 16 48950 Asua Vizcaya Espa�a 944710500 - Fax 944711324 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Dec 5 23:09:06 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 17:09:06 -0600 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: On 12/5/01, Mark Mandel wrote: >Does anyone know how the phrase "Mickey Mouse" came to describe "a >person or organization with a lot of poorly-justified, nit-picking >rules"? IMHO the cartoon character isn't like that and never has >been. It's not so much from the Mickey Mouse character itself as from TV's Mickey Mouse club, with its pre-adolescent members wearing the silly-looking Mickey-Mouse ears and earnestly singing the Mickey Mouse anthem. To sophisticates, this no doubt represented the height of silliness. Then by extension: silly (nit-picking) rules or directives. Also, in the jazz era a Mickey Mouse band was one regarded as fit only to play for an animated cartoon. (See Robert Gold's _Jazz Talk_). But the present derogatory use of Mickey Mouse does not seem to derive from this jazz use. ---Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 5 23:26:32 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:26:32 EST Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: MICKEY MOUSE: The RHHDAS H-O has a huge entry for this. A SOUTHWESTERN DICTIONARY: The M.A. thesis title by Rose Jeanne Carlisle, University of New Mexico, 1939. Has anyone seen this? Can Gerald Cohen inter-library loan it? (UMI doesn't carry it.) LOC: Maybe I'll go to the Library of Congress tomorrow. Jesse Sheidlower wanted me to check on CALIFORNIA FISH & GAME? What was it? From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Dec 5 23:47:54 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:47:54 EST Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: In a message dated 12/05/2001 4:31:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM writes: > Does anyone know how the phrase "Mickey Mouse" came to describe "a person > or organization with a lot of poorly-justified, nit-picking rules"? IMHO > the cartoon character isn't like that and never has been. I am told it is US Army slang from World War II. Unfortunately the book I think I'm quoting from is AWOL from my library. I think the definition you give better fits the word "chickenshit". A "Mickey Mouse outfit" is an organization that is too small (physically mentally or morally) to do the job it's supposed to, but doen not necessarily connote nit-picking bureaucracy the way "chicken-shit does". - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 5 23:51:35 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:51:35 EST Subject: "How do you make a small fortune in lexicography?" Message-ID: "There's a joke baseball owners like to tell: 'How do you make a small fortune owning a baseball team? Start with a large fortune!'" --VILLAGE VOICE (www.villagevoice.com), jockbeat column in latest issue Does Fred Shapiro have this one? A web check ("make a small fortune" & "large") shows the joke in many different fields. Paul Dickson might be interested, but I don't think it originated in baseball. Where did it originate? If I had to guess, I'd pick Wall Street. 1960s? From a recent cartoon on TheStreet at www.thestreet.com/markets/lolfree/00001709.html: "It's easy to make a small fortune. All you need to start with is a large fortune." From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Dec 5 23:56:40 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:56:40 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry Jim, them Micky-Mouse and chiceknshit outfits got the same connotations to me. I'm going to bed now to think abdut the usage and/or semantic distinctions between the two. At the moment they seem mighty slim, but a little slumber may reveal something. dInIs >In a message dated 12/05/2001 4:31:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, >Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM writes: > >> Does anyone know how the phrase "Mickey Mouse" came to describe "a person >> or organization with a lot of poorly-justified, nit-picking rules"? IMHO >> the cartoon character isn't like that and never has been. > >I am told it is US Army slang from World War II. Unfortunately the book I >think I'm quoting from is AWOL from my library. > >I think the definition you give better fits the word "chickenshit". A >"Mickey Mouse outfit" is an organization that is too small (physically >mentally or morally) to do the job it's supposed to, but doen not necessarily >connote nit-picking bureaucracy the way "chicken-shit does". > > - Jim Landau -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Dec 6 02:44:15 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:44:15 -0800 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: Gerald and all: > > It's not so much from the Mickey Mouse character itself as from > TV's Mickey Mouse club, with its pre-adolescent members wearing the > silly-looking Mickey-Mouse ears and earnestly singing the Mickey > Mouse anthem. To sophisticates, this no doubt represented the height > of silliness. Then by extension: silly (nit-picking) rules or > directives. > > Also, in the jazz era a Mickey Mouse band was one regarded as fit > only to play for an animated cartoon. (See Robert Gold's _Jazz > Talk_). But the present derogatory use of Mickey Mouse does not seem > to derive from this jazz use. About 30 years ago or so, if a college course was thought to be absurdly easy to pass, it was called a "Mickey Mouse" course. Anne G From tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU Thu Dec 6 14:44:49 2001 From: tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:44:49 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: <002901c17dff$e6f912e0$cefafd3f@u5a9c9> Message-ID: Whatever the origin, terms of abuse seem always to escape from their original restrictions, and the Mouseketeers song must at least have modified the range of application. My memory is of my college days in the sixties, the homecoming parade, and platoons of drunken fraternity boys perched on the roofs of their houses, singing M-I-C, K-E-Y, M-O-U-S-E, as the ROTC contingent marched by. Thom At 06:44 PM 12/5/01 -0800, you wrote: >Gerald and all: >> >> It's not so much from the Mickey Mouse character itself as from >> TV's Mickey Mouse club, with its pre-adolescent members wearing the >> silly-looking Mickey-Mouse ears and earnestly singing the Mickey >> Mouse anthem. To sophisticates, this no doubt represented the height >> of silliness. Then by extension: silly (nit-picking) rules or >> directives. >> >> Also, in the jazz era a Mickey Mouse band was one regarded as fit >> only to play for an animated cartoon. (See Robert Gold's _Jazz >> Talk_). But the present derogatory use of Mickey Mouse does not seem >> to derive from this jazz use. > >About 30 years ago or so, if a college course was thought to be absurdly >easy to pass, it was called a "Mickey Mouse" course. >Anne G > Thom Harrison Macon State College From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 6 02:06:06 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:06:06 +0800 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: <002901c17dff$e6f912e0$cefafd3f@u5a9c9> Message-ID: At 6:44 PM -0800 12/5/01, ANNE V. GILBERT wrote: >About 30 years ago or so, if a college course was thought to be absurdly >easy to pass, it was called a "Mickey Mouse" course. >Anne G This one goes back to the 1950's, as the RHHDAS cites indicate, and continues at least through the mid '90's. (I think it's still around.) Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 6 17:01:58 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:01:58 EST Subject: Ciopino (July 1917) Message-ID: Greetings from the Library of Congress, where, as expected, POKER, SMOKE AND OTHER THINGS (1907), the book on smoking and drink that's missing from the NYPL, is also missing here. It's CIOPINO here, not CIOPPINO. CALIFORNIA FISH AND GAME Volume 3 San Francisco, July 1917 Number 3 Pg. 130, col. 1: _CIOPINO._ The ciopino (pronounced chipeno) is one of the simplest, healthiest and cheapest ways of cooking fish. Originated by Italians, it is cooked and eaten by them almost exclusively. Ciopino is a great dish among the fishermen, some practically living on it because of its healthfulness and muscle-building qualities, and the ease with which it is prepared. When fishermen are out on trips for days at a time the only supplies that are taken are bread, wine, a little coffee and the ingredients that are used to make up a ciopino, depending on their luck to catch the needed fish. Butter is never used in the preparation of the ciopino, olive oil taking its place. There are a great many kinds of ciopino; that is, most of the people that cook it prepare the dish in a slightly different way. Sometimes it is what one might call fancy, shellfish, celery, parsley, wine, etc., being used in the preparation. But the kind generally prepared by the fisher folk is very simple and inexpensive, the olive oil used being the most expensive ingredient. Some prefer salad oil, which is less expensive and not quite so rich. The large sized fishes are generally used in making the ciopino on account of th e size of the bones. Most any of the larger sized ocean fishes, such as the rock fishes, rock bass, sea bass, halibut, and barracuda, can be used. The wings of the skate are highly prized among the Italian fishermen for a ciopino; striped bass are very fine. Several different varieties of fish are sometimes (Col. 2--ed.) used. The ciopino is neither a roast, chowder nor a fry. In America, it would probably be nearer a pot roast than anything else. In preparing a ciopino the whole fish is used including the head, which contains some of the best part of the fish. Ciopino, such as is made by the fishermen, is prepared as follows: For five people use from three to five pounds of fish sliced in fairly large pieces, then prepare one or two onions, depending on size, by chopping them up quite fine. Place in a stewpot one-half cup of olive oil (salad oil may be used) and add the onions, frying them until yellow, in the meantime adding several cloves, garlic, and a little parsley. Add a can of tomatoes (raw tomatoes may be used) and cook for about ten minutes. If potatoes are used (a great many never use potatoes in the preparation) they should then be added and cooked for five to ten minutes. Add fish, covering it well with the tomatoes, onions, etc., season with salt, and rather highly with pepper or paprica, put on the lid and let simmer until done. Don't stir. A little water may be added if desired. Serve in a deep plate. Ciopino may be poured over French or Italian bread. Owing to the present high cost of living, the people should take advantage of the cheaper kinds of fish, which when properly prepared are just as good and represent just as much food value as the more expensive kinds. Get the ciopino habit and fool the butcher several times a week.--H. R. NIDEVER. (A bit better explanation than in "the world's greatest culinary encyclopedia," newly revised--ed.) From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 6 17:07:55 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:07:55 -0500 Subject: Ciopino (July 1917) In-Reply-To: <3a.1ee58a79.2940fe86@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:01:58PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Greetings from the Library of Congress, where, as expected, POKER, > SMOKE AND OTHER THINGS (1907), the book on smoking and drink that's > missing from the NYPL, is also missing here. There are two copies for sale on ABEBooks, so if you feel like investing $100 or $110, you can have your very own copy of a book in neither the NYPL or the LoC! Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 6 17:21:38 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:21:38 EST Subject: Brownstone Front Cake (1882) Message-ID: "Brownstone Front Cake" is in the earlier edition of the Saratoga cookbook previously cited...Someone on Deja.com insists "Brownstone Front Cake" is 150 years old, going back to the 1850s or 1860s. "OUR HOME FAVORITE" PUBLISHED BY THE YOUNG WOMEN'S HOME MISSION CIRCLE OF THE FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH SARATOGA SPRINGS, N. Y. 1882 SARATOGA STPRINGS: THE DAILY SARATOGIAN STEAM JOB PRINT. 1882 Pg. 15: FRENCH CORN MUFFINS. Pg. 18: SARATOGA POTATOES...CATSKILL POTATOES. Pg. 48: MACARONI AND CHEESE. Pg. 52: COCOANUT PIE...CHOCOLATE CUSTARD PIE. Pg. 53: GARFIELD PIE...MARLBOROUGH PIE. Pg. 66: DELMONICO PUDDING. Pg. 73: TUTTI FRUTTI, OR FROZEN PUDDING. Pg. 82: HUCKLEBERRY CAKE. Pg. 85: ANGEL'S FOOD. Pg. 86: WHIPPED-CREAM CAKE...SNAP DOODLE. Pg. 90: WHITE MOUNTAIN CAKE. Pg. 92: BROWN STONE FRONT. 1 1-2 cups sugar, 1-2 cup butter, 2 eggs, 1 cup sweet milk, 3 cups flour, 3 teaspoons baking powder; flavor with vanilla. For the dark part use 1 1-2 squares grated chocolate, 1-2 cup brown sugar and 3 tablespoons milk. Add 7 spoonfuls of the white part and stir well. Bake the dark in 2 layers and the white in 3. Filling.--Melt 1-4 cake of chocolate in a very little water; boil, then thicken with powdered sugar. E. LENA CURTIS. Pg. 97: PRUNELLA DROPS. Pg. 100: GINGER SNAPS. Pg. 104: CHOW-CHOW. Pg. 105: HIGDUM...QUEEN OF ODE SAUCE. Pg. 111: MOLASSES CANDY...CHOCOLATE CARAMELS. Pg. 112: POP CORN BALLS. From AAllan at AOL.COM Thu Dec 6 17:57:07 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:57:07 EST Subject: New Visiting Scholars opportunity Message-ID: In fall 2002, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences will launch a new Visiting Scholars Center at its headquarters in Cambridge. The Center will stimulate and support research conducted by promising younger scholars and will foster interaction with Academy Fellows on scholarly and public policy issues. We ask your help in bringing this opportunity to the attention of the members of your association. [Done. - A.M.] Candidates are invited to submit proposals related to one of the Academy's core areas of research--Science, Technology, and Global Security; Social Policy and Education; and Humanities and Culture--and to a number of special themes for 2002-2003. Further information, guidelines and an application form are available on the Academy's website at www.amacad.org. The stipend for post-doctoral fellows is $35,000; the stipend for junior faculty is $45,000. The deadline for applications is January 21, 2002. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 6 18:03:24 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:03:24 EST Subject: Taco (1914) Message-ID: From the book missing from the NYPL: CALIFORNIA MEXICAN-SPANISH COOK BOOK Selected Mexican and Spanish Recipes By Bertha Haffner-Ginger 1914 Pg. 45 (photo): TACO Made by putting chopped cooked beef and chile sauce in tortilla made of meal and flour; folded, edges sealed together with egg; fried in deep fat, chile sauce served on it. From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Dec 6 18:09:14 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:09:14 -0800 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: Larry: > This one goes back to the 1950's, as the RHHDAS cites indicate, and > continues at least through the mid '90's. (I think it's still > around.) So are there two separate slang definitions of "Mickey Mouse"? Anne g From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 6 18:11:19 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:11:19 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: <003201c17e81$1e9bea20$5bfafd3f@u5a9c9> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 10:09:14AM -0800, ANNE V. GILBERT wrote: > Larry: > > > This one goes back to the 1950's, as the RHHDAS cites indicate, and > > continues at least through the mid '90's. (I think it's still > > around.) > > So are there two separate slang definitions of "Mickey Mouse"? The HDAS lists twenty-two separate slang definitions of "Mickey Mouse", not counting combined forms. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 6 18:36:07 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:36:07 EST Subject: Amber Candy & Bachelor's Buttons (1887) Message-ID: CENTENNIAL COOKERY BOOK. SOLD FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE WOMAN'S CENTENNIAL ASSOCIATION OF MARIETTA, OHIO 1788. APRIL 7, 1888 TIMES PRINT, MARIETTA, O. 1887 Pg. 1: APPLE JOHNNIE CAKE. Pg. 2: BOSTON BROWN BREAD...LIGHT BREAD (USING POTATO BALL). Pg. 7: FRENCH TOAST OR FRENCH BREAD. Pg. 8: HARESA...HUCKLEBERRY CAKE...INDIAN BREAD. Pg. 9: LAPLAND, OR BREAKFAST CAKES...DAPHNE'S MUFFINS. Pg. 10: MARYLAND BISCUIT. Pg. 11: POCKETBOOKS...POPOVERS. Pg. 27: BEZIQUE SOUP. Pg. 42: FRENCH COFFEE. Pg. 47: OLD VIRGINIA CHOW-CHOW. Pg. 64: RUSSIAN SALAD. Pg. 72: ANGEL'S FOOD. Pg. 73: BACHELOR'S BUTTONS. MRS. W. W. MILLS. One-half teacup butter, 2 eggs, 3 small cups of flour, 2 cups powdered sugar. Rub the butter and flour together, then the sugar (Pg. 74--ed.) and moisten it with the eggs. Flavor with vanilla. Drop on tins, making large as macaroons. Very good. These can be made twice the size of a macaroon. Add a pinch of preserve on each after baking; cover with icing. Pg. 77: COLORADO CREAM CAKE...DELMONICO FILLING...DETROIT SPICE CAKE. Pg. 87: PINE APPLE CAKE. Pg. 90: SAND TARTS. (2 recipes--ed.) Pg. 91: WHITE PERFECTION CAKE. Pg. 92: WHITE MOUNTAIN CAKE. Pg. 111: AMBER CREAM...BOHEMIAM CREAM...BAVARIAN CREAM. Pg. 112: BANANA ICE CREAM. Pg. 115: ICE CREAM--PEACH. Pg. 118: MOONSHINE. Pg. 127: AMBER CANDY. MRS. WOODRUFF. Two cups sugar, 1 cup vinegar. Boil but not stir until it crisps in cold water, turn on buttered pans, thin. When cold break and eat. Pg. 127: BUTTER SCOTCH...CHOCOLATE CARAMELS. Pg. 129: ORANGE BON-BONS...TAFFY...WHITE TAFFY. From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Dec 6 20:39:24 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:39:24 EST Subject: Amber Candy & Bachelor's Buttons (1887) Message-ID: This reminds me of AMBER MUTANT--the name of a virus that eats bacteria. There is a whole family of them, all with color terms. Does anyone remember the story of how these got their names? From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Dec 6 20:31:13 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:31:13 -0500 Subject: "white alleys" Message-ID: The following passage appears in the memoir of an NYC cop, active about 1900-1925. "I dont think Monk had a gun on him when he was killed and whether he ever had a chance for his white alley, I dont know." Cornelius W. Willemse A Cop Remembers N. Y.: E. P. Dutton, 1933, p. 215. [Monk Eastman was a reformed gangster turned war-hero of sorts, who was murdered in Union Square in I think 1920.] DAE, under "alley", defines it as a marble, such as boys play with, and gives several 19th C. quotations referring specifically to "white alleys" and indicating that it was a particularly valuable marble. I assuming that the "white alley" was the shooting marble used when playing marbles, and that to lose one's white alley, or have it taken, was to be put out of the game; and therefore Willemse is wondering whether Eastman had had a chance to defend his life. But although I had marbles when a boy, I never "played marbles" and so I don't know. Some of you rounders must have been marble-shooters when young. What do you say? I seem to recall that Dialect Notes (?) many decades ago published a vocabulary of marble-shooting. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Dec 6 21:10:50 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:10:50 -0500 Subject: "white alleys" Message-ID: MOA-Cornell, with reference to a person's thoughts about playing a game of marbles, "thinking how many good shots he could make if he only had a 'white alley' to start with." In Scribners monthly, NY, 9#5, March 1875, in story: Home and Society, p.632. http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=%2Fmoa%2Fscmo%2Fscmo0009%2F&tif=00638.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DABP7664-0009-108 ====================== Less certain use of 'white alley' in the following account. At MOA-Michigan, in journals, in an account of a group trying to travel across some rough land, in rough weather, the foreman is shown to be a driven person, forcing people to move on, even if they wished to stop. The narrator, uncertain of how he should view the foreman, notes: "So I went on, dodging between two opinions, and trying to give Burkit a show for his white alley, in my own mind, for the sake of his gentleness with the consumptive...." In the Overland monthly and Out West magazine, Nov. 1897, 30 iss. 139, in the story Bully Burkit, by Francis Lynde, p. 444. http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/m/moajrnl/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=75&root=mm000082%2F1397over%2Fv0030%2Fi179&tif=04660444.tif&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hti.umich.edu%2Fcgi%2Fm%2Fmoajrnl%2Fmoajrnl-idx%3Fnotisid%3DAHJ1472-1397OVER-116 Similar use of 'white alley', in an account of a fight, "'Hol' on,' called another; 'give him some show for his white alley." They weren't preparing to play marbles. In Overland monthly and Out West magazine, Feb 1894, 23 iss. 134, in the story An Encounter with Chinese Smugglers, by J. C. Nattrass, p.214. http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/m/moajrnl/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=75&root=mm000080%2F1390over%2Fv0023%2Fi134&tif=02200214.tif&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hti.umich.edu%2Fcgi%2Fm%2Fmoajrnl%2Fmoajrnl-idx%3Fnotisid%3DAHJ1472-1390OVER-54 Other cites at the MOA-Michigan site, in both journals and books, appear to be clearly related to the game of marbles. George Cole Shippensburg University From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 6 10:54:20 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 18:54:20 +0800 Subject: WOTY candidate Message-ID: From tonight's ABC World News Tonight on as I write, there's a special feature on "linguistic profiling". Probably been around for awhile. Begins with discrimination against African-Americans based on the perception of race/ethnicity of speakers on the phone. John Baugh (Stanford U.) was featured. Supposedly abcnews.com has an on-line test open to all. larry From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Fri Dec 7 01:18:23 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:18:23 -0500 Subject: ..Richard Roeper, on language.. Message-ID: The 4 DEC 2001 column of Chicago Sun-Times columnist Richard Roeper, titled "New Yorkers say we're the ones who talk funny", expresses his views, somewhat, about a "Midwestern accent", as compared to that of New Yorkers. His comments are not necessarily prepared for an academic audience, and I'm not sure if that is good or bad. http://www.suntimes.com/output/roeper/cst-nws-roep04.html George Cole Shippensburg University From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Dec 7 01:39:38 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:39:38 EST Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: In a message dated 12/05/2001 6:56:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > Sorry Jim, them Micky-Mouse and chiceknshit outfits got the same > connotations to me. Yes and no. In my experience "chickenshit" is a specialized term, used ONLY to refer to (complain about) nit-picking rules. "Mickey Mouse" is a more general term, usable for anything you wish to describe as petty, petty-minded, undersized, etc. "Chickenshit" therefore is a subset of "Mickey Mouse". Consider "a Mickey Mouse course". Would you also refer to that as a "chickenshit course"? An IBM salesman told me the following joke circa 1976: (Buildup about a rich man deciding to give away his fortune to his sons). Finally he gets to his youngest son, who is a small child. When asked what he wants, the boy replies, "A Mickey Mouse outfit." So the father buys him IBM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------- The OED2 outdoes itself with "Mickey Mouse". For the derogatory usage, it has a 1935 citation by Sinclair Lewis (who is not noted for his usage of slang): "Goebbels...is privily known throughout Germany as 'Wotan's Mickey Mouse' " and 1936 by another literary giant, George Orwell: "...a sort of Mickey Mouse universe where things and people don't have to obey the rules of space and time." (On second thought, I'm not sure the Orwell quote is derogatory. He may have meant simply "an animated-cartoon-style fantasy universe" rather than a "petty or petty-minded universe".) One possibility: The derogatory usage of "Mickey Mouse" came from the use of mice as a traditional reference to a very small animal, hence to anything perceived as small, even if only metaphorically: "Are you a man or a mouse?" The reference to Goebbels may be due to Goebbels's being short: "As blond as Hitler, as slim as Goering, and as tall as Goebbels". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------- It is interesting to note that Mickey Mouse is NOT mouse-sized. I do not know if Disney or his animators ever had an exact standard size for Mickey, but in most of the cartoons where he is shown next to some object or being whose size can be estimated, he works out to three or at most four feet tall. (Hobbit-sized!) In "Steamboat Willie" he is tall enough to operate the controls of a steamboat. In the scene in _Fantasia_ (both the original and the 2000 version) immedately after "Sorceror's Apprentice" (as far as I know, the only time Mickey is ever shown with a live human without comic intent) he is the right height to get the conductor's attention by reaching for the tail of the conductor's coat. Mickey and Donald are roughly the same size, and Donald is also not duck-sized. - Jim Landau P.S. And who are Huey, Dewey, and Louie? Not Donald's nephews, but rather his acknowledged bustards. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Dec 7 01:53:48 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:53:48 EST Subject: "How do you make a small fortune in lexicography?" Message-ID: In a message dated 12/05/2001 6:52:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > "There's a joke baseball owners like to tell: 'How do you make a small > fortune owning a baseball team? Start with a large fortune!'" > --VILLAGE VOICE (www.villagevoice.com), jockbeat column in latest issue > > Does Fred Shapiro have this one? > A web check ("make a small fortune" & "large") shows the joke in many > different fields. Paul Dickson might be interested, but I don't think it > originated in baseball. Where did it originate? > If I had to guess, I'd pick Wall Street. 1960s? Sounds to me like the punchline of a Chelm story. Or perhaps an Irish bull. Either one would long antedate the 20th century. A similar joke runs: "Las Vegas (or any other gambling center)---you go there in a thirty thousand dollar car and leave in a hundred fifty thousand dollar bus." - Jim Landau From grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET Fri Dec 7 02:00:09 2001 From: grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:00:09 -0500 Subject: SciFi OED Antedating Message-ID: Saw this link today, regarding the OED looking to antedate SciFi related terms. http://66.108.177.107/SF/sf_citations.shtml "This page is a pilot effort for the Oxford English Dictionary, in which the words associated with a special field of interest are collected so that knowledgable aficionados can help the OED find useful examples of these words. This, our first project, is science fiction literature." -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Dec 7 02:27:33 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:27:33 -0500 Subject: SciFi OED Antedating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Grant Barrett wrote: > Saw this link today, regarding the OED looking to antedate SciFi related > terms. > > http://66.108.177.107/SF/sf_citations.shtml That should actually be http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf_citations.shtml The numeric address is just what it happens to be resolving to today. The other info is all correct. Best, Jesse Sheidlower OED From grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET Fri Dec 7 02:22:33 2001 From: grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:22:33 -0500 Subject: Harijan; Children of God; Scheduled Castes; Dalit Message-ID: I'm curious: we have representatives or experts on this list of many of the Anglophone populations in the world, but is there someone who specializes in the English spoken in India? This little tidbit interested me: http://www.kamat.com/vikas/blog.htm "Gandhiji called the downtrodden people of India as Harijans, or Children of God. Then the word Harijan became a derogatory word, and the downtrodden people asked to be referred to as the Scheduled Castes. Now, apparently the word scheduled caste is considered offensive." This page offers a bit more: http://www.kirklees-ednet.org.uk/nonpassword/learnonline/resources/blackdime n/history/india/india.html "Possibly the most substantial percentage of Asia's Africans can be identified among India's 160 million "Untouchables" or "Dalits". India's Untouchables number more than the combined population of England, France, Belgium and Spain. Frequently they are called "outcasts". The official name given to them in India's Constitution (1947) is "Scheduled - Castes". Indian nationalist leader, devout Hindu and social reformer Mohandas K. Ghandi, called them "Harijans", meaning "children of God". "Dalit", meaning "crushed and broken" is a name that has come into prominence only within the last three decades. "Dalit" reflects a radically different response to oppression." -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From krahn at PUNCTUATION.ORG Fri Dec 7 02:39:12 2001 From: krahn at PUNCTUATION.ORG (Albert E. Krahn) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:39:12 -0600 Subject: Many Mickey Mice Message-ID: I can attest to all the Mice offered so far, having played in a Mickey Mouse band at times, waded through Mickey Mouse bureaucracy, and taken Mickey Mouse courses in college. A core idea of unsquare, worthless, stupid, and needlessly dragged out or bothersome seems to be there in all of them. akra From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Fri Dec 7 03:46:40 2001 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:46:40 -0500 Subject: Basically Message-ID: There are words that come onto my radar screen because of a dramatic increase in their use. And there are words which catch my interest and I become more aware of them. But it seems to me that there has been a recent explosion in the use of the word "basically." Watch the call-ins on C-SPAN Journal (which, if othing else, is an interesting cohort). I find it very irritating and yet seductive. Unlike other fill words (I'm sure, like, you professionals have, you know, a term for that), this one seems to have some substance, a substance that might be of interest to linguists. I am seeing it used in a context that indicates a recognition, however subliminal, that language cannot relate the entirety of any situation. So basically its use acknowledges the limits of language in people who probably are not basically aware of language. Has anyone else noticed this? D From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Thu Dec 6 22:40:03 2001 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:40:03 -0000 Subject: The Old English Preterite Plural Lives! Message-ID: For my first posting as a "free woman"--unfettered by constraints of working for RH--I'd like to add, for anyone interested in regional distribution, that a quick check of my age cohorts (40-ish) and unspeakably large extended family in the northwest reveals that they do NOT say 'snook'. Hope to be a more productive member of the list from now on. Wendalyn Nichols ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Sheidlower" To: Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 5:00 PM Subject: Re: The Old English Preterite Plural Lives! > > This discussion is the first I've heard of "snook" = "snuck". > > For me it's always been I, you, he/she/it, we, you (pl.), and they "snuck" > > (rhymes with "duck")--except for the rare occassions when I remember > > "sneaked". > > OED seems to have examples of _snook_ going back to the early 1960s, > and that's without even checking the electronic databases. > > Best, > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 7 09:32:50 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 04:32:50 EST Subject: Almendrado (Tucson, 1920s) Message-ID: "Almendrado" is not in the "world's greatest culinary encyclopedia. It's also not in OED, DARE, M-W, and Mariani's Encyclopedia of American Food & Drink. One of the books I went through today was TUCSON'S MEXICAN RESTAURANTS: REPASTS, RECIPES, AND REMEMBRANCES, Tasted and Written by Suzanne Myal (University of Arizona Press, Tucson; 1997 copyright with Fiesta Publishing, 1999 paperback). From the Introduction: Pg. 13: However, things immediately start to get complicated in southern Arizona, because what are locally called "flat enchiladas" or "Sonoran-style enchiladas" aren't really like other enchiladas--they are thick cakes of corn masa, red chile, and often cheese that are fried and then served in a red sauce! Pg. 14: If you deep-fry a burro, it becomes a _chimichanga_--a truly local dish from southern Arizona or northern Sonora. There are many legends concerning the origin of the chimichanga, and its apparently meaningless name (some folks insist it's a _chivi_changa). I don't know which, if any, might be the truth.... I'd honestly rather eat the things than argue about their origin. Pg. 17: And for dessert, what better than _almendrado_, a tricolored almond confection invented right here in Tucson in the 1920s. Pg. 150: _Yndia Smalley Moore_ as told by Dianne M. Bret Hart, daughter In the early 1920s, "dropout" was a two-word verb, and _almendrado_ had not emerged from a Tucson kitchen to be called a traditional Mexican dessert. But a University of Arizona coed changed all of that. The coed was my mother, Yndia Smalley. One night, not long after enrolling in the university, Yndia had a date with her good friend Malcolm Cummings. They left the house intending to go to a movie but returned hours later with an idea they had formulated during a long evening of talk. They would borrow some money and open a charming little reservations-only, Mexican-themed "tea room." So with a bank loan, plus help from their families, Malcolm and Yndia moved ahead with their plans. Yndia's mother, Lydia, indulging a well-developed sense of romance and adventure, offered to lend her cook, Rosa, to the tea room along with her own adaption of a popular dessert that accompanied the family's Mexican dinners every Wednesday evening. Lydia replaced snow pudding's lemon flavoring with almond extract, tinted the layers of frothy beaten egg white a pale pink and green vaguely suggestive (Pg. 151--ed.) of the Mexican flag, and laced the custard sauce with "bourbon, enough to mask the egginess." She called the dessert _almendrado_. (...)(Pg. 152--ed.) Rosa's years in the family kitchen, followed by two seasons at La Cazuela, gave her the confidence and skill to seek employment at the popular El Charro, then on West Broadway, where she introduced the enterprising owner, Monica Flin, to La Cazuela's popular dessert. Added to El Charro's menu, and then to others both near and far, almendrado began, and continues today, its incredible and mythic journey into culinary history. Trendy menus focus upon _almendrado_ as "not to be missed," cookbooks toot it as "typically Mexican," newspaper food pages label it "traditional," and nouvelle Southwest restaurants serve it after salmon enchiladas. I have eaten garishly hued imitations of the real almendrado in Minneapolis and San Diego and elsewhere. Their bourbonless sauces would cause my grandmother grief. But closest to home, for me at least, is the Mexican (Pg. 153--ed.) restaurant in the Student Union of the University of Arizona. Each Cinco de Mayo lunchtime I go there to be entertained by mariachi music and to have for dessert their version of _almendrado_. And, for my grandmother, to mourn the custard sauce. _SECRETA DE FAMILIA_ _Almendrado_ Yndia Smalley Moore _Pudding_ 1 package Knox gelatin 1/4 cup water 6 egg whites pinch of salt 3/4 cup sugar 1 teaspoon almond extract Dissolve gelatin in water. Heat until dissolved. Meanwhile, beat egg white until stiff. Add cooled gelatin slowly, beating continually. Add salt and sugar slowly. When well mixed, add almond extract. If desired, tint 1/3 pale pink, and 1/3 pale green, and layer with remaining untinted 1/3 white in ring mold, a la Mexican flag. Chill for 6 hours, unmold, and serve individual portions topped with custard sauce (see following recipe). _Custard Sauce_ 6 egg yolks pinch of salt 1/4 cup sugar 1 pint half-and-half bourbon blanched and toasted slivered almonds Beat egg yolks slightly. Add salt, sugar, and half-and-half. Cook in a double boiler until custard coats spoon, stirring almost constantly. When cool, add enough bourbon to overshadow eggy taste. Add almonds to sauce just before serving, or sprinkle on top. Serves 4 to 6. As I said before, this is not a great book, but FWIW, from EL CHARRO CAFE: THE TASTES AND TRADITIONS OF TUCSON (Fisher Books, Tucson, 1998), by Carlotta Flores, pg. 114: _Almendrado_ Almond Meringue Pudding Makes 12 servings Almendrado is a light confection, actually an unbaked, soft meringue, molded in layers colored to resemble the Mexican flag--green, white and red (which actually is pink, in egg white). It is served with a custard sauce. It is said that if the Almendrado fails, the blame lies with the cook being angry that day. Almendrado can be made nicely with egg substitute for the custard sauce. However, you will still need to use real egg whites for the meringue portion. (Long recipe follows--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 7 10:23:15 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 05:23:15 EST Subject: Wandering Jews (1889); Brown-Eyed Susans, Rocky Roads (1925) Message-ID: WANDERING JEWS From THE GOOD CHEER COOK BOOK, BY THE LADIES AID SOCIETY OF THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH, CHIPPEWA FALLS, WISCONSIN (Herald Print, 1889), pg. 85: "WANDERING JEWS." One and one-half cupfuls of sugar, one cupful of butter, two cupfuls of fruit, one-half teaspoonful of soda, one teaspoonful of cloves, one teaspoonful of cinnamon, one-half of a nutmeg, three eggs. Bakes as cookies. MRS. HERBERT BARKER. From OUR ALMA MATER COOK BOOK, Dow Academy Alumni, Franconia, N. H. (1903), pg. 67: WANDERING JEWS. MRS. S. C. BROOKS One cup raisins, one cup butter, two cups sugar, three eggs, two teaspoons baking powder, four cups flour or more. Roll out and cut like cookies. -------------------------------------------------------- BROWN-EYED SUSANS; ROCKY ROADS CORONA CLUB COOK BOOK Corona Club, San Francisco 1925 (There is also a 1911 edition, but I didn't have time to request it in the Rare Book Room--ed.) Pg. 165: _Batchelors (sic) Buttons_. Pg. 165: _Brown Eyed Susans_--Two cups molasses, 1 cup lard, 1 cup sugar, 2-3 cup sour milk, 1 tablespoon ginger, 3 teaspoons soda stirred in flour and 1 in milk, 2 eggs; enough flour to roll and cut into cookies. Put raisin in center of each.--Mrs. E. R. S. Pg. 214: _Elmira Cream Nut Fudge_. Pg. 215: _Franconia Fudge_. Pg. 217: _Rocky Roads_--One pound of milk chocolate cut in small pieces and put in a double boiler to melt, one cup of chopped walnuts, 15 marhsmallows broken in small pieces. When the chocolate is melted take a fork and beat it smooth. Then stir in 2 tablespoons of corn oil or butter. Grease a deep tin and put in it a thin layer of the melted chocolate--then a layer of nuts and marhsmallows mixed together, then another layer of chocolate, then the mixed nuts and marshmallows, the top layer being of chocolate. Put the mixture aside to coolm then break into pieces.--C. L. B. From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Fri Dec 7 15:24:27 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:24:27 -0500 Subject: 911 Message-ID: from the Atlanta Journal last Sunday: Some members of what's increasingly being called Generation 911 say that while Harrison's death saddens them, it doesn't increase their interest in his music. don't know if it's pronounced nine-one-one or nine-eleven. Ellen Ellen Johnson Assistant Professor of Linguistics Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing Berry College, Box 350 Mt. Berry, GA 30149 706-368-5638 http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ ejohnson at berry.edu From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Fri Dec 7 15:26:40 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:26:40 -0500 Subject: n-word Message-ID: I forwarded this before, but I don't think my email went out the day the worm shut us down. addresses the question of whether the n-word is becoming less taboo or not. Ellen This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by fsgiles at arches.uga.edu. A Black Author Hurls That Word as a Challenge December 1, 2001 By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK At halftime of a 1993 basketball game against Miami University of Ohio, Keith Dambrot, varsity men's basketball coach at Central Michigan University, called his team together to talk about the word "nigger." Mr. Dambrot, who is white, had overheard his African- American players call each other "nigger" to denote toughness and tenacity on the court. He asked the players permission to use the word in the same sense, and after they assented he adopted "nigger," too. A few weeks later, after administrative censure, sensitivity training and two campus protests, Mr. Dambrot lost his job and promptly filed suit. His case is one of dozens analyzed in "Nigger," a new book by Randall Kennedy, an African-American scholar at the Harvard Law School. Mr. Kennedy recounts many unpleasant episodes, like the embarrassing use of the term by Senator Robert C. Byrd of West Virginia in a public appearance last march. But Mr. Kennedy also considers the newer, more complicated use of "nigger" as a term of affection by young African-Americans and their well-meaning white friends. All in all, he argues, the new uses are gradually helping to exorcise the word's power as America's "paradigmatic ethnic slur." Even before the book's appearance in stores next month, its uncomfortable title has elicited considerable hand-wringing among the mostly white staff of its publisher, Pantheon Books, where some executives have even refused to say its name. It has also become the source of a certain mischievous amusement on the part of its African-American editor. And as advanced word spreads among other African-American scholars, the title has provoked denunciations from some who vehemently disagree with Mr. Kennedy's thesis even before they have read the book. "When I show up on CNN, I get e-mails from racists calling me a nigger bitch, O.K.?" said Julianne Malveaux, an African-American economist and newspaper columnist, "so I don't think its use is taking the sting out of it. I think it's escalating at this point. You are just giving a whole bunch of racists who love to use the word permission to use it even more, like, `I am not really using it, I am just talking about a book!' " Patricia Williams, an African- American professor at Columbia Law School, objected to the title: "That word is a bit like fire - you can warm your hands with the kind of upside-down camaraderie that it gives, or you can burn a cross with it. But in any case it depends on the context and the users' intention, and seeing it floating abstractly on a book shelf in a world that is still as polarized as ours makes me cringe." Houston A. Baker Jr., an African- American professor of English at Duke University, agreed about the title: "I see no reason whatsoever to do this, except to make money. It is a crude marketing technique unworthy of someone with the kind of penetrating intelligence that Professor Kennedy has." For his part, Mr. Kennedy said he felt no qualms about the sensational title, adding, "I write a book to be read." He said he had come up with the idea for the book, which grew out of a series of lectures, after idly typing the word "nigger" into a database of court cases. He found over 4,000 entries. Even before prosecutors in the O. J. Simpson case argued that hearing a witness's use of the word might unduly bias a jury, courts have often grappled with the caustic power of the word's history. Some courts have ruled that hearing the word "nigger" constitutes a provocation to violence similar to receiving a physical blow. Others have determined that speaking the word as an insult can disqualify a prosecutor or judge from his job. Lawyers have argued that a juror's utterance of the word in earshot of other jurors can invalidate their deliberations. Mr. Kennedy writes approvingly of entertainers' penchant for "nigger." The comedian Lenny Bruce expounded the idea that repeating the word "nigger" could defang its derogatory impact, capitalizing on the word's shock-value in the process. But Mr. Kennedy notes that African-American rappers and comedians do not concern themselves much with whether they are encouraging white racists or disarming them. "They say, `We don't feel constrained that we have to burnish the image of the Negro - we think this is fun and we are going to do it,' " Mr. Kennedy said. "Frankly, I felt inspired by that." Erroll McDonald, Mr. Kennedy's editor at Pantheon and one of the few senior African-American editors in book publishing, was delighted with the manuscript. "I appreciated its importance instantly," he said, "It is just such a curious word that provokes atavistic passions in people, and I thought it was time for a proper reckoning with it." He continued: "I for one am appalled by that euphemism `the N word.' It seems an elision of something that would be better off talked about. There are some people out there talking about the `N- word' that do regard a certain section of the population as niggers." Mr. McDonald enjoyed the reactions of colleagues, almost all of them white. He carried a piece of paper around the office with the word "nigger" written on it, asking people to pronounce it. Presenting the idea at a planning session in January, he asked about 45 editors and other executives to say it unison. In both cases, some refused. "I think it is pretty fun," Mr. McDonald said, imagining customers asking a bookstore clerk, "Can I have one `Nigger' please? Where are your `Niggers'?" He added, "I am not afraid of the word `nigger.' " Some of the sales and marketing executives, however, were nervous, partly about how to publicize a book some would not name aloud and partly about the subtitle. Mr. McDonald picked the subtitle, "A Problem in American Culture," which appeared in the Pantheon catalog sent to reviewers and stores. But at a sales conference in August, some executives worried that consumers might think "nigger" referred to African-Americans and that by implication African-Americans were the "problem," said Joy Dallanegra- Sanger, who is white and the marketing director of the division of Random House that includes Pantheon. Mr. McDonald disagreed but acquiesced. "I always thought of `nigger' as an imaginary construct, like `goblins' or `elves.' I never thought they actually existed, but apparently they do in the minds of some." The subtitle was changed to "The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word," clarifying that the subject was a word and not a person. In the past, librarians and bookstore owners have sometimes removed books from their shelves for containing the word "nigger" in the title, including "The Nigger of the Narcissus," by Joseph Conrad. But several bookstores, including some catering mainly to African-Americans, said that they planned to stock Mr. Kennedy's book. Several noted the comedian Dick Gregory's 1964 autobiography, "Nigger." He wrote at the time that he hoped the word would become obsolete, but he also joked that it was advertising for the book. John McWhorter, an African- American linguist and the author of the forthcoming book "The Power of Babel" (Henry Holt), read an early copy. He said he shared Mr. Kennedy's hopeful fascination with the changing uses of the word among young African-Americans and even their white friends, suggesting that the book might further dilute the opprobrium the word carries. "Pretty soon we are going to have a book called `Nigger' that is going to be sitting in front of every bookstore in the United States, and that will be one more step toward taking the power of the word away." The most immediate effect, however, is likely to be an escalation of the debate over the politics of its use. Richard Delgado, a Mexican-American professor at the University of Colorado Law School, who has argued for restrictions on hate-speech, said that he, too, feared that Mr. Kennedy's defense of the term's novel uses would encourage racists. But Mr. Delgado also said that Mr. Kennedy risked slighting other ethnic groups by underestimating the power of other slurs. Calling "nigger" the "paradigmatic" ethnic slur was "parochial," Mr. Delgado said. For his part, Mr. Dambrot, the basketball coach who lost his job for using the word, said he favored open discussion, even of his own mistake. He lost his suit and worked as a stockbroker for five years before he found another job coaching basketball, for a high school in Akron, Ohio. This year he finally returned to coaching a college team, at the University of Akron. "I try to use the whole situation as an educational tool for the kids," he said. "I explain that you have to understand how different people understand your words. Be careful what you say. Every decision you make can effect the rest of your life, and my life can be case study for that." From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 7 15:27:11 2001 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 07:27:11 -0800 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't understand "Mickey Mouse" the same as you. To me it simply means without substance, something not to be taken seriously, something trivial. The behavior of some people or organizations certainly falls in this category. Unfortunatly, Mickey Mouse behavior is often backed by, even the direct result of, public laws and corporate policies and such. --- Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM wrote: > Does anyone know how the phrase "Mickey Mouse" came > to describe "a person > or organization with a lot of poorly-justified, > nit-picking rules"? IMHO > the cartoon character isn't like that and never has > been. > > (This question arises from a discussion of > intellectual property rights on > another list I'm on. It is completely unrelated to > today's being the > hundredth anniversary of the birth of Walter Elias > Disney.) > > -- Mark ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Fri Dec 7 15:34:24 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:34:24 -0500 Subject: "southernisms" Message-ID: funny this should show up in the Atl Journal-Constitution's anonymously called in "Vent" section this week. did one of you submit it? "Favorite 'you-can't-get-more-Southern-than-this' Southernism: 'tumped over' --- 'I reached to get my beer and accidentally tumped it over.'" Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it on a sign at a Taco Bell: Jeet chet? Yont to? [yont rhymes with won't, of course] is anybody besides me a fan of the very definitely dated video from our own Preston and Shuy on varieties of am eng? well, a fan of some parts of it anyway, esp this section on style. every time I hear a comment on jeet chet I think of that guy (who also did a skit of middle-aged hopelessly uncool dude trying to be hip by using slang, who is he anyway? dInIs?) Ellen Johnson Assistant Professor of Linguistics Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing Berry College, Box 350 Mt. Berry, GA 30149 706-368-5638 http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ ejohnson at berry.edu From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Dec 7 15:37:33 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:37:33 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: <04075613166AF949913A8094A388272A11CDDC@FSMAIL.AD.Berry.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Ellen Johnson wrote: >Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I >suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it >on a sign at a Taco Bell: > >Jeet chet? >Yont to? I first heard used as an example of general informal speech (not regional in distribution) when I was a doctoral student Fall 1961. I have used it in class lectures for many years. I think I heard it first in a class in Old English. Bethany From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 7 15:52:04 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:52:04 -0500 Subject: "southernisms" In-Reply-To: <04075613166AF949913A8094A388272A11CDDC@FSMAIL.AD.Berry.edu> Message-ID: Alas, Ellen, he is a USIA actor, not a real person at all. dInIs >funny this should show up in the Atl Journal-Constitution's anonymously >called in "Vent" section this week. did one of you submit it? > >"Favorite 'you-can't-get-more-Southern-than-this' Southernism: 'tumped >over' --- 'I reached to get my beer and accidentally tumped it over.'" > >Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I >suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it >on a sign at a Taco Bell: > >Jeet chet? >Yont to? > >[yont rhymes with won't, of course] is anybody besides me a fan of the >very definitely dated video from our own Preston and Shuy on varieties >of am eng? well, a fan of some parts of it anyway, esp this section on >style. every time I hear a comment on jeet chet I think of that guy >(who also did a skit of middle-aged hopelessly uncool dude trying to be >hip by using slang, who is he anyway? dInIs?) > >Ellen Johnson >Assistant Professor of Linguistics >Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing >Berry College, Box 350 >Mt. Berry, GA 30149 >706-368-5638 >http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ >ejohnson at berry.edu -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From pkurtz at HEIDELBERG.EDU Fri Dec 7 16:01:25 2001 From: pkurtz at HEIDELBERG.EDU (Patti Kurtz) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:01:25 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: <20011207152711.41000.qmail@web9703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've heard "Mickey Mouse" used by woodworkers like my husband to describe a poorly done restoration job: "That desk was really mickey moused." or "It was a real Mickey Mouse job." The implication seems to be that the job was both done carelessly and incompetently, usually by someone who is seen as having no knowledge of how to do it right or no patience for doing it right. At 07:27 AM 12/7/01 -0800, you wrote: >I don't understand "Mickey Mouse" the same as you. To >me it simply means without substance, something not to >be taken seriously, something trivial. The behavior >of some people or organizations certainly falls in >this category. Unfortunatly, Mickey Mouse behavior is >often backed by, even the direct result of, public >laws and corporate policies and such. > > >--- Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM wrote: > > Does anyone know how the phrase "Mickey Mouse" came > > to describe "a person > > or organization with a lot of poorly-justified, > > nit-picking rules"? IMHO > > the cartoon character isn't like that and never has > > been. > > > > (This question arises from a discussion of > > intellectual property rights on > > another list I'm on. It is completely unrelated to > > today's being the > > hundredth anniversary of the birth of Walter Elias > > Disney.) > > > > -- Mark > >===== >James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything >SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued >jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send your FREE holiday greetings online! >http://greetings.yahoo.com Patti J. Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Advisor, Kilikilik "Anyone can do any amount of work provided it isn't the work he is supposed to be doing at the moment." -- Robert Benchley From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 7 16:10:25 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:10:25 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think (but I haven't seen it for a while, and, as Ellen Johnson suggests, it is a bit old-timey) that the entire conversation from the old Shuy-Preston USIA film was Jeet chet? Nachet. Jew? No. Skweet. Slate. dInIs (who could also tell you who the creole speaker is when Roger plays the tape recorder, but won't) >On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Ellen Johnson wrote: > >>Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I >>suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it >>on a sign at a Taco Bell: >> >>Jeet chet? >>Yont to? > >I first heard used as an example of general informal >speech (not regional in distribution) when I was a doctoral student Fall >1961. I have used it in class lectures for many years. I think I heard it >first in a class in Old English. > >Bethany -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Dec 7 16:18:46 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:18:46 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >I think (but I haven't seen it for a while, and, as Ellen Johnson >suggests, it is a bit old-timey) that the entire conversation from >the old Shuy-Preston USIA film was What year was that? Bethany From Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM Fri Dec 7 16:21:30 2001 From: Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:21:30 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: >From another member of the list where the question arose. -- Mark M. >>>> An observation and a hypothesis: US soldiers often refers to both air-pocketed extreme cold weather boots, and chemical protective boots, as "Mickey Mouse boots". This, in part, because the gear is oversized and distorts the natural proportions of the foot: a big bulb of a boot on a pipestem leg, like a cartoon character. In another part, such boots make movement difficult and grace unlikely. One so encumbered in boots is as liable to pratfalls as a cartoon character. To an extent, the proportions and resulting clumsiness of gear for the hands is similar, though I have only once heard usage of "Mickey Mouse mittens". Ditto the head, but _never_ a "Mickey Mouse hood". But I _have_ heard, and often, "the full Mickey Mouse" among green suiters referring to donning complete MOPP gear. It should be noted that trying to do very simple things (like see or move) while wearing the full Mickey Mouse is _so_ difficult, and the hazards the full Mickey Mouse defends you from (cold and _maybe_ gas) are _so) intangible (compared to the visceral dangers of falling from a high place (or getting SHOT!) ) that the wearer (this one, anyway) is (was) CONSTANTLY fighting the temptation to peel the stuff off. One is stuck with the dichotomy -- intellectually acceptance /emotional rejection and coping with the dichotomy often involves trivializing it. It's "just" Mickey Mouse. It's not important enough to hate. It's just Mickey Mouse. It's not a source of fear. It's Mickey Mouse. It seems to me to be a reasonable hypothesis that the sense of misproportion, awkwardness, cognitive dissonance and comic possibility of "the full Mickey Mouse" might be lifted from a military cold weather or chemical hazard environment and applied to military or even civil bureaucracy. "They spend the day mowing the grass, polishing the brass, and covering their ass -- all that Mickey Mouse..." But I won't _insist_ on that interpretation... From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Fri Dec 7 16:36:18 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:36:18 -0500 Subject: jeet chet Message-ID: I dunno, but Dennis was wearing a tie that was about 5 inches wide! Ellen -----Original Message----- From: Bethany K. Dumas [mailto:dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 11:19 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: jeet chet On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >I think (but I haven't seen it for a while, and, as Ellen Johnson >suggests, it is a bit old-timey) that the entire conversation from >the old Shuy-Preston USIA film was What year was that? Bethany From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Dec 7 16:42:37 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:42:37 -0500 Subject: gap in the OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Laurence Horn wrote: > appear in print until 1975. The AHD4 entry is pretty solid-- > > Linguistics [Why not "Philosophy" too?] > 1. The aspect of meaning that a speaker conveys, implies, or suggests > without directly > expressing. Although the utterance "Can you pass the salt?" is > literally a request for > information about one's ability to pass salt, the understood > implicature is a request for > salt. > 2. The process by which such a meaning is conveyed, implied, or > suggested. In saying "Some dogs are mammals," the speaker conveys by > implicature that not all dogs are mammals. > > --but curiously omits any attribution to Grice, the originator of the > term. (As it happens, the example in #2 comes from my own work--I > seem to recall that the AHD entry is due to our own Steve Kleinedler, > and there was no such entry in AHD3--but I was just using it to > illustrate Grice's concept.) To give credit where credit is due, Larry helped me considerably in hammering out the phrasing of this for a general audience, reviewing my work and making several excellent suggestions. -- Steve From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 7 17:23:02 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 12:23:02 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >77, 78? dInIs >On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >>I think (but I haven't seen it for a while, and, as Ellen Johnson >>suggests, it is a bit old-timey) that the entire conversation from >>the old Shuy-Preston USIA film was > >What year was that? > >Bethany -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Dec 7 17:24:22 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 12:24:22 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>77, 78? So where did my Old English prof. get it? In 1961? (He had studied at Penn.) Bethany From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Dec 7 17:42:26 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 12:42:26 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: re: Mickey Mouse boots, also known as Bunny Boots in the Tenth Mountain Division (in WWII), we quickly discarded them. As Mark M. notes, they are oversized and clumsy. They also charred easily when the GI is crouched over a fire in the snow. Bunny Boots were not meant for walking, just camp use). They were a nuisance to carry; wouldn't fold or scrunch into a wad, like moccasins. The army designers were apparently not aware that when a human pack mule is already burdened with sleeping gear, rifle, skis, tent, food, ammo, etc. etc. discarding is top priority. I suppose that the army's issuance of these items was looked upon as simply more foolish fooling around, akin to SNAFU, etc. Martin Murie ~~~~~~~~~~~ Mark Mandel wrote: >>>From another member of the list where the question arose. > >-- Mark M. > >>>>> >An observation and a hypothesis: > >US soldiers often refers to both air-pocketed >extreme cold weather boots, and chemical protective >boots, as "Mickey Mouse boots". This, in part, >because the gear is oversized and distorts the >natural proportions of the foot: a big bulb of >a boot on a pipestem leg, like a cartoon character. >In another part, such boots make movement difficult and >grace unlikely. One so encumbered in boots is as >liable to pratfalls as a cartoon character. > >To an extent, the proportions and resulting >clumsiness of gear for the hands is similar, >though I have only once heard usage of "Mickey Mouse >mittens". Ditto the head, but _never_ a "Mickey Mouse >hood". > >But I _have_ heard, and often, "the full >Mickey Mouse" among green suiters referring >to donning complete MOPP gear. > >It should be noted that trying to do very simple >things (like see or move) while wearing the full >Mickey Mouse is _so_ difficult, and the hazards >the full Mickey Mouse defends you from (cold and >_maybe_ gas) are _so) intangible (compared to the >visceral dangers of falling from a high place >(or getting SHOT!) ) that the wearer (this one, >anyway) is (was) CONSTANTLY fighting the temptation >to peel the stuff off. One is stuck with the >dichotomy -- intellectually acceptance /emotional >rejection and coping with the dichotomy often involves >trivializing it. It's "just" Mickey Mouse. It's >not important enough to hate. It's just Mickey >Mouse. It's not a source of fear. It's Mickey Mouse. > >It seems to me to be a reasonable hypothesis that >the sense of misproportion, awkwardness, cognitive >dissonance and comic possibility of "the full >Mickey Mouse" might be lifted from a military >cold weather or chemical hazard environment and >applied to military or even civil bureaucracy. >"They spend the day mowing the grass, polishing >the brass, and covering their ass -- all that Mickey >Mouse..." > >But I won't _insist_ on that interpretation... A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 7 18:10:34 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:10:34 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Roger and I (where have I heard something like that before?) surely didn't make it up. We both had it fromn "linguistic folk memory." dInIs >On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >>>77, 78? > >So where did my Old English prof. get it? In 1961? (He had studied at >Penn.) > >Bethany -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 7 18:12:51 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:12:51 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the late 50's these items, purchased from Army stores, were dyed bright colors and had a brief popularity as "fruit boots" among tennage boys. dInIs >re: Mickey Mouse boots, also known as Bunny Boots in the Tenth Mountain >Division (in WWII), we quickly discarded them. As Mark M. notes, they are >oversized and clumsy. They also charred easily when the GI is crouched over >a fire in the snow. Bunny Boots were not meant for walking, just camp use). >They were a nuisance to carry; wouldn't fold or scrunch into a wad, like >moccasins. The army designers were apparently not aware that when a human >pack mule is already burdened with sleeping gear, rifle, skis, tent, food, >ammo, etc. etc. discarding is top priority. I suppose that the army's >issuance of these items was looked upon as simply more foolish fooling >around, akin to SNAFU, etc. >Martin Murie >~~~~~~~~~~~ >Mark Mandel wrote: >>>>From another member of the list where the question arose. >> >>-- Mark M. >> >>>>>> >>An observation and a hypothesis: >> >>US soldiers often refers to both air-pocketed >>extreme cold weather boots, and chemical protective >>boots, as "Mickey Mouse boots". This, in part, >>because the gear is oversized and distorts the >>natural proportions of the foot: a big bulb of >>a boot on a pipestem leg, like a cartoon character. >>In another part, such boots make movement difficult and >>grace unlikely. One so encumbered in boots is as >>liable to pratfalls as a cartoon character. >> >>To an extent, the proportions and resulting >>clumsiness of gear for the hands is similar, >>though I have only once heard usage of "Mickey Mouse >>mittens". Ditto the head, but _never_ a "Mickey Mouse >>hood". >> >>But I _have_ heard, and often, "the full >>Mickey Mouse" among green suiters referring >>to donning complete MOPP gear. >> >>It should be noted that trying to do very simple >>things (like see or move) while wearing the full >>Mickey Mouse is _so_ difficult, and the hazards >>the full Mickey Mouse defends you from (cold and >>_maybe_ gas) are _so) intangible (compared to the >>visceral dangers of falling from a high place >>(or getting SHOT!) ) that the wearer (this one, >>anyway) is (was) CONSTANTLY fighting the temptation >>to peel the stuff off. One is stuck with the >>dichotomy -- intellectually acceptance /emotional >>rejection and coping with the dichotomy often involves >>trivializing it. It's "just" Mickey Mouse. It's >>not important enough to hate. It's just Mickey >>Mouse. It's not a source of fear. It's Mickey Mouse. >> >>It seems to me to be a reasonable hypothesis that >>the sense of misproportion, awkwardness, cognitive >>dissonance and comic possibility of "the full >>Mickey Mouse" might be lifted from a military >>cold weather or chemical hazard environment and >>applied to military or even civil bureaucracy. >>"They spend the day mowing the grass, polishing >>the brass, and covering their ass -- all that Mickey >>Mouse..." >> >>But I won't _insist_ on that interpretation... > > >A&M Murie >N. Bangor NY >sagehen at westelcom.com -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 7 18:06:25 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:06:25 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My phonology colleague has used it for years, is not a sociolinguist, and has never heard of the film you're talking about (nor have I seen it). Since it reflects speech pretty accurately, I suspect it's been around forever, in one spelling variant or another. At 12:24 PM 12/7/01 -0500, you wrote: >On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > > >>77, 78? > >So where did my Old English prof. get it? In 1961? (He had studied at >Penn.) > >Bethany _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 7 18:18:27 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:18:27 -0500 Subject: The Old English Preterite Plural Lives! In-Reply-To: <009f01c17ea6$f22b9d20$8e3c4142@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: I just remembered that my mother (b. 1906) used "snook" [snUk] all the time, in Minnesota; "snook around" was more common for her than "snook out." But my siblings and I only used "snuck." At 10:40 PM 12/6/01 +0000, you wrote: >For my first posting as a "free woman"--unfettered by constraints of working >for RH--I'd like to add, for anyone interested in regional distribution, >that a quick check of my age cohorts (40-ish) and unspeakably large extended >family in the northwest reveals that they do NOT say 'snook'. > >Hope to be a more productive member of the list from now on. > >Wendalyn Nichols >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jesse Sheidlower" >To: >Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 5:00 PM >Subject: Re: The Old English Preterite Plural Lives! > > > > > This discussion is the first I've heard of "snook" = "snuck". > > > For me it's always been I, you, he/she/it, we, you (pl.), and they >"snuck" > > > (rhymes with "duck")--except for the rare occassions when I remember > > > "sneaked". > > > > OED seems to have examples of _snook_ going back to the early 1960s, > > and that's without even checking the electronic databases. > > > > Best, > > > > Jesse Sheidlower > > OED _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Dec 7 18:33:39 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:33:39 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20011207130402.03c42220@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >My phonology colleague has used it for years, is not a sociolinguist, and >has never heard of the film you're talking about (nor have I seen >it). Since it reflects speech pretty accurately, I suspect it's been >around forever, in one spelling variant or another. Sure. However, I doubt that my OE prof decided on his own to use it in a class lecture. I am wondering who called it to his attention. Bethany From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 7 06:32:02 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:32:02 +0800 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20011207130402.03c42220@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 1:06 PM -0500 12/7/01, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >My phonology colleague has used it for years, is not a sociolinguist, and >has never heard of the film you're talking about (nor have I seen >it). Since it reflects speech pretty accurately, I suspect it's been >around forever, in one spelling variant or another. > There was also Woody Allen's nice riff on it, possibly in Annie Hall (?). He notes how everyone always goes Jeet jet? No Jew? and deconstructs the response as an obvious instance of anti-Semitism. larry From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Fri Dec 7 19:33:13 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:33:13 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: "Mickey Mouse" boots were still being issued, in 1966 & 1967, for use in the Korean DMZ, for the security guards at the Joint Security Area, primarily for those working in either the base camp or the Swiss-Swede Compound. The alternative footwear was standard military issue boots, with standard stockings. With standard footwear, it was difficult to keep feet warm for those who were on stationary posts. When it was cold, and you were wearing standard footwear, you stamped your feet a lot, hoping that no toes would break off. ":-) I think that they were issuing boots with felt inserts, late in 1967. George Cole Shippensburg University From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 7 06:36:11 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:36:11 +0800 Subject: Wandering Jews (1889) In-Reply-To: <17f.51db19.2941f294@aol.com> Message-ID: At 5:23 AM -0500 12/7/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >WANDERING JEWS > > From THE GOOD CHEER COOK BOOK, BY THE LADIES AID SOCIETY OF THE >EPISCOPAL CHURCH, CHIPPEWA FALLS, WISCONSIN (Herald Print, 1889), >pg. 85: > > "WANDERING JEWS." > One and one-half cupfuls of sugar, one cupful of butter, two >cupfuls of fruit, one-half teaspoonful of soda, one teaspoonful of >cloves, one teaspoonful of cinnamon, one-half of a nutmeg, three >eggs. Bakes as cookies. > MRS. HERBERT BARKER. > From OUR ALMA MATER COOK BOOK, Dow Academy Alumni, Franconia, N. >H. (1903), pg. 67: > > WANDERING JEWS. > MRS. S. C. BROOKS > One cup raisins, one cup butter, two cups sugar, three eggs, two >teaspoons baking powder, four cups flour or more. Roll out and cut >like cookies. > Sounds a lot like the recipes for Wandering Episcopalians we used to use at the Synagogue... L From lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG Fri Dec 7 19:41:38 2001 From: lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG (Linda Sparlin) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:41:38 -0600 Subject: "southernisms" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is not "tump" simply a blend of "turn" and "dump"? As in "...turned it over" or "...dumped it over" ? And I have to disagree slightly with the pronunciation of "Jeet chet?" and "Yont to?" "Yont" rhymes with "want," not "won't." It's simply lazy enunciation, rushed/compressed into fewer distinct sounds, meaning "Did you eat yet?" and "Do you want to?" in all of MO, OK, KS, IL, as far east as Cleveland (my only experience.) Haven't read the whole string - so my apologies if this has already been suggested. Linda _____________________ ...funny this should show up in the Atl Journal-Constitution's anonymously called in "Vent" section this week. did one of you submit it? "Favorite 'you-can't-get-more-Southern-than-this' Southernism: 'tumped over' --- 'I reached to get my beer and accidentally tumped it over.'" Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it on a sign at a Taco Bell: Jeet chet? Yont to? [yont rhymes with won't, of course] is anybody besides me a fan of the very definitely dated video from our own Preston and Shuy on varieties of am eng? well, a fan of some parts of it anyway, esp this section on style. every time I hear a comment on jeet chet I think of that guy (who also did a skit of middle-aged hopelessly uncool dude trying to be hip by using slang, who is he anyway? dInIs?) Ellen Johnson Assistant Professor of Linguistics Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing Berry College, Box 350 Mt. Berry, GA 30149 706-368-5638 http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ ejohnson at berry.edu From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Dec 7 20:42:59 2001 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:42:59 -0600 Subject: "southernisms" Message-ID: Indeed, it is lazy in the same way that some lazy people compress bacon, lettuce, and tomato between slices of bread rather than enjoying them as distinct tastes. I think they do that in Missouri as well (well probably just southern Missouri). Linda Sparlin wrote: > Is not "tump" simply a blend of "turn" and "dump"? As in "...turned it > over" or "...dumped it over" ? > > And I have to disagree slightly with the pronunciation of "Jeet chet?" and > "Yont to?" "Yont" rhymes with "want," not "won't." It's simply lazy > enunciation, rushed/compressed into fewer distinct sounds, meaning "Did you > eat yet?" and "Do you want to?" in all of MO, OK, KS, IL, as far east as > Cleveland (my only experience.) > > Haven't read the whole string - so my apologies if this has already been > suggested. > > Linda Linda Sparlin wrote: > Is not "tump" simply a blend of "turn" and "dump"? As in "...turned it > over" or "...dumped it over" ? > > And I have to disagree slightly with the pronunciation of "Jeet chet?" and > "Yont to?" "Yont" rhymes with "want," not "won't." It's simply lazy > enunciation, rushed/compressed into fewer distinct sounds, meaning "Did you > eat yet?" and "Do you want to?" in all of MO, OK, KS, IL, as far east as > Cleveland (my only experience.) > > Haven't read the whole string - so my apologies if this has already been > suggested. > > Linda > _____________________ > > ...funny this should show up in the Atl Journal-Constitution's anonymously > called in "Vent" section this week. did one of you submit it? > > "Favorite 'you-can't-get-more-Southern-than-this' Southernism: 'tumped > over' --- 'I reached to get my beer and accidentally tumped it over.'" > > Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I > suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it > on a sign at a Taco Bell: > > Jeet chet? > Yont to? > > [yont rhymes with won't, of course] is anybody besides me a fan of the > very definitely dated video from our own Preston and Shuy on varieties > of am eng? well, a fan of some parts of it anyway, esp this section on > style. every time I hear a comment on jeet chet I think of that guy > (who also did a skit of middle-aged hopelessly uncool dude trying to be > hip by using slang, who is he anyway? dInIs?) > > Ellen Johnson > Assistant Professor of Linguistics > Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing > Berry College, Box 350 > Mt. Berry, GA 30149 > 706-368-5638 > http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ > ejohnson at berry.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 7 21:39:51 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:39:51 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, When I typed that I had the anti-Semitic interpretation (to me obvious only in the graphic representation) in the back of my head but couldn't remember where from. Thanks, dInIs >At 1:06 PM -0500 12/7/01, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>My phonology colleague has used it for years, is not a sociolinguist, and >>has never heard of the film you're talking about (nor have I seen >>it). Since it reflects speech pretty accurately, I suspect it's been >>around forever, in one spelling variant or another. >> > >There was also Woody Allen's nice riff on it, possibly in Annie Hall >(?). He notes how everyone always goes > >Jeet jet? >No Jew? > >and deconstructs the response as an obvious instance of anti-Semitism. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 7 21:41:52 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:41:52 -0500 Subject: Wandering Jews (1889) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course us Hungarians ate only wandering infidels. But I think the recipe was a little different. I haven't whiiped up a batch for quite some time. Maybr this holiday season ... dInIs >At 5:23 AM -0500 12/7/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>WANDERING JEWS >> >> From THE GOOD CHEER COOK BOOK, BY THE LADIES AID SOCIETY OF THE >>EPISCOPAL CHURCH, CHIPPEWA FALLS, WISCONSIN (Herald Print, 1889), >>pg. 85: >> >> "WANDERING JEWS." >> One and one-half cupfuls of sugar, one cupful of butter, two >>cupfuls of fruit, one-half teaspoonful of soda, one teaspoonful of >>cloves, one teaspoonful of cinnamon, one-half of a nutmeg, three >>eggs. Bakes as cookies. >> MRS. HERBERT BARKER. >> From OUR ALMA MATER COOK BOOK, Dow Academy Alumni, Franconia, N. >>H. (1903), pg. 67: >> >> WANDERING JEWS. >> MRS. S. C. BROOKS >> One cup raisins, one cup butter, two cups sugar, three eggs, two >>teaspoons baking powder, four cups flour or more. Roll out and cut >>like cookies. >> >Sounds a lot like the recipes for Wandering Episcopalians we used to >use at the Synagogue... > >L -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 7 23:01:56 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:01:56 -0600 Subject: Wandering Jews (1889) Message-ID: I know about the Eugene Sue novel; I twice tried to finish it, but only got about halfway before I gave up. So. What/where is a 'wandering Jew'. It is related to/derived from 'wandering Aramaean'? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Sat Dec 8 01:41:36 2001 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:41:36 -0500 Subject: n-word Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:26:40 -0500 Ellen Johnson Patricia Williams, an African- American professor at > Columbia Law School, objected to the title: "That word is a > bit like fire - you can warm your hands with the kind of > upside-down camaraderie that it gives, or you can burn a > cross with it. But in any case it depends on the context > and the users' intention More often it depends on the hearer's perception of the users' [sic] intention(s). D From grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET Sat Dec 8 13:06:34 2001 From: grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:06:34 -0500 Subject: Wandering Jews (1889) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/07/01 18:01, "Mark Odegard" wrote: > I know about the Eugene Sue novel; I twice tried to finish it, but only got > about halfway before I gave up. > > So. What/where is a 'wandering Jew'. It is related to/derived from > 'wandering Aramaean'? A Wandering Jew FAQ, for what it's worth: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/1720/wj.htm From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 8 02:13:07 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:13:07 +0800 Subject: more on "linguistic profiling" as WOTY candidate Message-ID: If anyone wants to take the "test" at the abcnews.com web site I mentioned (during the Thursday broadcast), it's at this URL: When Voice Recognition Leads to Bias http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/WorldNewsTonight/linguistic_profiling011206.html A little additional investigation indicates that this might indeed be a candidate for the brand-spanking new category. No hits at all on "linguistic profiling" on Nexis, and most of the google ones point directly back to the ABC story or to other, irrelevant uses of the expression (rather than the one spun off from "racial profiling" at issue here). Linguist List had a brief discussion of the expression last September, which was inspired by a mention on NPR in either late August or early September (2001), so unless there's an earlier use around somewhere, it looks like a good candidate, and with the possibility of extension to contexts of "profiling" native Arabic speakers of English rather than for purposes of "traditional" racial discrimination, it may have a future. larry From lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU Sat Dec 8 15:35:58 2001 From: lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU (Sonja L. Lanehart) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:35:58 -0500 Subject: more on "linguistic profiling" as WOTY candidate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't think it can be nominated for brand-spanking new since I nominated it last year during the meeting. I was told to wait till the 2002 meeting to nominate it for a more appropriate category than the one I was nominating it for by the time I remembered to nominate it. I guess I was ahead of my time. --Sonja >If anyone wants to take the "test" at the abcnews.com web site I >mentioned (during the Thursday broadcast), it's at this URL: > >When Voice Recognition Leads to Bias >http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/WorldNewsTonight/linguistic_p >rofiling011206.html > >A little additional investigation indicates that this might indeed be >a candidate for the brand-spanking new category. No hits at all on >"linguistic profiling" on Nexis, and most of the google ones point >directly back to the ABC story or to other, irrelevant uses of the >expression (rather than the one spun off from "racial profiling" at >issue here). Linguist List had a brief discussion of the expression >last September, which was inspired by a mention on NPR in either late >August or early September (2001), so unless there's an earlier use >around somewhere, it looks like a good candidate, and with the >possibility of extension to contexts of "profiling" native Arabic >speakers of English rather than for purposes of "traditional" racial >discrimination, it may have a future. > >larry ************************************************************** Sonja L. Lanehart Department of English 706-542-2260 (office) University of Georgia 706-542-1261 (dept.) 300 Park Hall 706-542-2181 (fax) Athens, GA 30602-6205 http://www.arches.uga.edu/~lanehart ************************************************************** From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 8 07:13:55 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:13:55 +0800 Subject: more on "linguistic profiling" as WOTY candidate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:35 AM -0500 12/8/01, Sonja L. Lanehart wrote: >I don't think it can be nominated for brand-spanking new since I >nominated it last year during the meeting. I was told to wait till >the 2002 meeting to nominate it for a more appropriate category than >the one I was nominating it for by the time I remembered to nominate >it. I guess I was ahead of my time. --Sonja > Sorry; I retract my supposition (that it wasn't around pre-2001). I'd evidently suppressed that memory. Well, it's still up for consideration in those other categories, anyway. LH From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Sat Dec 8 20:53:46 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:53:46 -0500 Subject: "southernisms" In-Reply-To: <3C1129D3.32E41003@missouri.edu> Message-ID: Expand that "laziness" to cover the whole country--and perhaps the entire English-speaking world. And we DO know what the words mean, Linda. BTW, "yont" would be closer to (some) Southern US English "do you want" than "yant" would, if I'm not mistaken. At 02:42 PM 12/7/01 -0600, you wrote: >Indeed, it is lazy in the same way that some lazy people compress bacon, >lettuce, and tomato between slices of bread rather than enjoying them as >distinct tastes. I think they do that in Missouri as well (well probably just >southern Missouri). > >Linda Sparlin wrote: > > > Is not "tump" simply a blend of "turn" and "dump"? As in "...turned it > > over" or "...dumped it over" ? > > > > And I have to disagree slightly with the pronunciation of "Jeet chet?" and > > "Yont to?" "Yont" rhymes with "want," not "won't." It's simply lazy > > enunciation, rushed/compressed into fewer distinct sounds, > meaning "Did you > > eat yet?" and "Do you want to?" in all of MO, OK, KS, IL, as far east as > > Cleveland (my only experience.) > > > > Haven't read the whole string - so my apologies if this has already been > > suggested. > > > > Linda > >Linda Sparlin wrote: > > > Is not "tump" simply a blend of "turn" and "dump"? As in "...turned it > > over" or "...dumped it over" ? > > > > And I have to disagree slightly with the pronunciation of "Jeet chet?" and > > "Yont to?" "Yont" rhymes with "want," not "won't." It's simply lazy > > enunciation, rushed/compressed into fewer distinct sounds, > meaning "Did you > > eat yet?" and "Do you want to?" in all of MO, OK, KS, IL, as far east as > > Cleveland (my only experience.) > > > > Haven't read the whole string - so my apologies if this has already been > > suggested. > > > > Linda > > _____________________ > > > > ...funny this should show up in the Atl Journal-Constitution's anonymously > > called in "Vent" section this week. did one of you submit it? > > > > "Favorite 'you-can't-get-more-Southern-than-this' Southernism: 'tumped > > over' --- 'I reached to get my beer and accidentally tumped it over.'" > > > > Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I > > suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it > > on a sign at a Taco Bell: > > > > Jeet chet? > > Yont to? > > > > [yont rhymes with won't, of course] is anybody besides me a fan of the > > very definitely dated video from our own Preston and Shuy on varieties > > of am eng? well, a fan of some parts of it anyway, esp this section on > > style. every time I hear a comment on jeet chet I think of that guy > > (who also did a skit of middle-aged hopelessly uncool dude trying to be > > hip by using slang, who is he anyway? dInIs?) > > > > Ellen Johnson > > Assistant Professor of Linguistics > > Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing > > Berry College, Box 350 > > Mt. Berry, GA 30149 > > 706-368-5638 > > http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ > > ejohnson at berry.edu _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 9 02:51:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 21:51:45 EST Subject: Huacamole (1894) and Texas books Message-ID: TEXAN RANCH LIFE by Mary Jaques H. Cox, London 1894 Texas A & M University Press, College Station 1989 reprint I had no time (about two minutes) to flip through this book. I did find "huacamole" in a nice context. OED and M-W have 1920 for "guacamole." Pg. 176: school marm...drummers. Pg. 234: tamales...peloncillas. Pg. 236: ice cream shake. Pg. 251: play the bear (hacienda el aso(?)). Pg. 286: huacamole. Pg. 278: tamalada (picnic). Pg. 280: _pilon-cillas_, a kind of sandwich of sliced bread and native syrup made from brown sugar and grated cheese. -------------------------------------------------------- THE TRUTH ABOUT TEXAS by Lewis Nordyke Thomas Y. Crowell Company, NY 1957 Pg. 9: Anywhere you go in Texas, or in the nation for that matter, you hear the quickie-type story that is known as the T.O.M.--Texas Oil Millionaire. Pg. 48: Out in the cotton country of the Texas plains a gruff farmer might stand in front of the post office and refer to a Mexican as a "greaser" or "pepper-belly"; a country newspaper out there might say "so many white men and so many Mexicans." Pg. 111: In East Texas, people (including waitresses in some of the coffee shops) still "porch" eggs and "warsh" on Monday. Pg. 115: ..."Juneteenth." Pg. 130: The old boy was no more bumfuzzled about Big D (that's what we call it) than many Texans are. Pg. 198: For years (El Paso _Herald-Post_ editor Ed--ed.) has referred to the Latins as the "Juan Smiths." Pg. 210: Texans say they love (Pg. 211--ed.) the Oklahoma Panhandle because it is a buffer between them and Republican Kansas, which they call the "three sons state"--sunflowers, sunshine, and sons of --. (No relation to the old tv show MY THREE SONS--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- SONORA SKETCH BOOK by John W. Hilton Macmillan Company, NY 1947 This was an interesting book, but I didn't find anything like "taco" or "Montezuma's revenge." There's a chapter on the tortilla. Hilton cites other books I have to check out, such as Timothy Gilman Turner's BULLETS, BOTTLES AND GARDENIAS (1935) and Arthur Walbridge North's CAMP AND CAMINO IN LOWER CALIFORNIA (1910). Hilton wrote an article on Mexican "jumping beans" for the SATURDAY EVENING POST in 1942, and it's a chapter here. Pg. 284 has a recipe for "chillicalil," but I didn't find that spelling on the web. -------------------------------------------------------- CAMPFIRES ON DESERT AND LAVA by William T. Hornaday Charles Scribner's Sons, NY 1908 Pg. 33: (s.f.a.k.)* *so far as known. (I hope the page number is right. This abbreviation was used on several pages--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- HIGHWAYS AND BYWAYS OF FLORIDA by Clifton Johnson Macmillan Company, NY 1918 I didn't find "hush puppy." Pg. 87: ..."Magic City." (Miami. See my "Magic City" post if it's there in the old archives--ed.) Pg. 88: ..."singing sand." Pg, 99: "Grits and grunts" are the favorite foods of many of the Key Westers. Pg. 252: ..."groundnut cakes"--that is, peanut candy. -------------------------------------------------------- JAPANESE IN AMERICA by Charles Lanman Longmans, Green, Reader and Dyer; London 1872 I found this looking at what other books Charles Lanman (1819-1895) wrote. I was intrigued by a Japanese book at this early date. Pg. 121, in a chapter on Japanese costume, mentions "haki-mono." A "kimono" antedate? From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Sun Dec 9 03:52:29 2001 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 21:52:29 -0600 Subject: jeet chet Message-ID: For once I've got documentation for an occurence earlier than cited here so far. My field notes for August 1958, written in an isolated backwoods community in Chiapas, Mexico, comment on my surprise at encountering a Mexican rural development agent who demonstrated his facility in English by producing this dialogue: "Jeetchet? No, jew?" -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Sun Dec 9 05:22:58 2001 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 23:22:58 -0600 Subject: n-word Message-ID: Some years ago, I got in terrible trouble because I said the "n-word" in what I innocently thought was an entirely appropriate way. WARNING: I use that word in what follows because I am talking about it as a word. It is one of many words I only use when talking about them as words. I had asked students in a course on ethnographic fieldwork to find and critically analyze some ethnographic monograph in which the author devoted attention to how fieldwork affects the ethnographer. In class, they said they were having trouble finding the kind of book I had in mind and asked me for suggestions. I rattled off half a dozen titles or so before I fell into a hole that it took me weeks of class to escape. I started my descent into the inferno by mentioning Bronislaw Malinowski's field diaries, which I immediately regretted. I explained by saying "No, I take that back, that wouldn't be a good one. That's the one where Malinowski calls the Trobriand Islanders 'niggers'." I thought that made it clear that I objected to Malinoski's language AND his attitude toward his informants, and I didn't want my students to have to deal with such problems for the purposes of this assignment. (Yes, he did use that word. Repeatedly.) Then I went on to name some more books that would be appropriate for that class. Nothing happened immediately. Ten minutes later, however, an African American woman in the class exploded with objections. She said she'd never heard "the n-word" used in a college classroom or in her graduate studies. She found my quotation of the word so unsettling that she felt she had to stop the class to object. Ooops. I'm afraid I made things worse, not better, by pointing out that I'm used to talking about words in the classroom even when they are words I don't use when speaking in my own voice. (I offered the examples of "fuck" and "shit" -- words I would not consider using in a classroom UNLESS I was considering them as words rather than using them as expressions of my feelings.) I pointed out that it is literally true that Malinowski used the word "nigger" in his diaries, and I was referring to that fact, not joining him in his application of the word. I said that was precisely why I could NOT recommend that students use that book for the purposes of my assignment. Then I compounded my own error by considering two controversial instances where I think there is some point to using that particular -- and particularly objectionable -- word. One is in Huckleberry Finn. For me, the apotheosis of the whole book comes in Huck's reflection that if he was going to go to hell for considering Nigger Jim to be a human being, then he was just going to have to go to hell. The other is the scene in Showboat (as originally staged and filmed), where a white man about to be arrested for the crime of having married a black woman who passed for white cuts his wife and sucks up some of the resulting blood. Just as the sheriff is about to arrest him for miscegenation, he says "ask anybody here: I got nigger blood in me, too". At the same time, I pointed out that there is another use of the word "nigger" in Showboat that makes no point, does not advance the story, and is quite properly excised in latter-day versions of the show. That's the objectionable line "Niggers all work on the Mississippi" in the song "Old Man River". Looking back at how I grew up, both literary cases I cited in class were extremely powerful in shaping my own resistance to racism -- a resistance so strong that I've endangered my livelihood and my social position (and actually lost more than one job) by fighting its manifestations. (I've also been beaten up badly enough to need hospitalization, and my life has been threatened, because I don't accept racial discrimination when there's a chance to stand up against it. I first got in trouble about that as a fifth grader, when I objected to the U.S. "internment" -- I said, properly, "imprisonment" -- of people of Japanese descent nearly 60 years ago, and I've been in social trouble lately for objecting to our current mountains of discrimination against Moslems and people whose ancestors came from Southwest Asia.) All right, I was dumb in class that day. And dumbfounded. And I really compounded my error. But until that day I had never considered using such euphemisms as "the n-word", "the f-word", and the like when talking about words as words. The student who found my quotation so objectionable took her complaint to her advisor (not in my department). Luckily, the advisor knows me well; she counseled the student to continue in my course and suspend judgment for a while. I guess the judgment came out in my favor: the student later asked me to serve on her doctoral committee. (I was delighted to do so. Her dissertation really was good, too.) -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! Ellen Johnson wrote: > > I forwarded this before, but I don't think my email went out the day the > worm shut us down. addresses the question of whether the n-word is > becoming less taboo or not. Ellen > > This article from NYTimes.com > has been sent to you by fsgiles at arches.uga.edu. > A Black Author Hurls That Word as a Challenge > > December 1, 2001 > > By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK > > At halftime of a 1993 basketball game against Miami > University of Ohio, Keith Dambrot, varsity men's basketball > coach at Central Michigan University, called his team > together to talk about the word "nigger." Mr. Dambrot, who > is white, had overheard his African- American players call > each other "nigger" to denote toughness and tenacity on the > court. He asked the players permission to use the word in > the same sense, and after they assented he adopted > "nigger," too. A few weeks later, after administrative > censure, sensitivity training and two campus protests, Mr. > Dambrot lost his job and promptly filed suit. > > His case is one of dozens analyzed in "Nigger," a new book > by Randall Kennedy, an African-American scholar at the > Harvard Law School. Mr. Kennedy recounts many unpleasant > episodes, like the embarrassing use of the term by Senator > Robert C. Byrd of West Virginia in a public appearance last > march. But Mr. Kennedy also considers the newer, more > complicated use of "nigger" as a term of affection by young > African-Americans and their well-meaning white friends. All > in all, he argues, the new uses are gradually helping to > exorcise the word's power as America's "paradigmatic ethnic > slur." > > Even before the book's appearance in stores next month, its > uncomfortable title has elicited considerable hand-wringing > among the mostly white staff of its publisher, Pantheon > Books, where some executives have even refused to say its > name. It has also become the source of a certain > mischievous amusement on the part of its African-American > editor. And as advanced word spreads among other > African-American scholars, the title has provoked > denunciations from some who vehemently disagree with Mr. > Kennedy's thesis even before they have read the book. > > "When I show up on CNN, I get e-mails from racists calling > me a nigger bitch, O.K.?" said Julianne Malveaux, an > African-American economist and newspaper columnist, "so I > don't think its use is taking the sting out of it. I think > it's escalating at this point. You are just giving a whole > bunch of racists who love to use the word permission to use > it even more, like, `I am not really using it, I am just > talking about a book!' " > > Patricia Williams, an African- American professor at > Columbia Law School, objected to the title: "That word is a > bit like fire - you can warm your hands with the kind of > upside-down camaraderie that it gives, or you can burn a > cross with it. But in any case it depends on the context > and the users' intention, and seeing it floating abstractly > on a book shelf in a world that is still as polarized as > ours makes me cringe." Houston A. Baker Jr., an African- > American professor of English at Duke University, agreed > about the title: "I see no reason whatsoever to do this, > except to make money. It is a crude marketing technique > unworthy of someone with the kind of penetrating > intelligence that Professor Kennedy has." > > For his part, Mr. Kennedy said he felt no qualms about the > sensational title, adding, "I write a book to be read." > > He said he had come up with the idea for the book, which > grew out of a series of lectures, after idly typing the > word "nigger" into a database of court cases. He found over > 4,000 entries. Even before prosecutors in the O. J. Simpson > case argued that hearing a witness's use of the word might > unduly bias a jury, courts have often grappled with the > caustic power of the word's history. Some courts have ruled > that hearing the word "nigger" constitutes a provocation to > violence similar to receiving a physical blow. Others have > determined that speaking the word as an insult can > disqualify a prosecutor or judge from his job. Lawyers have > argued that a juror's utterance of the word in earshot of > other jurors can invalidate their deliberations. > > Mr. Kennedy writes approvingly of entertainers' penchant > for "nigger." The comedian Lenny Bruce expounded the idea > that repeating the word "nigger" could defang its > derogatory impact, capitalizing on the word's shock-value > in the process. But Mr. Kennedy notes that African-American > rappers and comedians do not concern themselves much with > whether they are encouraging white racists or disarming > them. "They say, `We don't feel constrained that we have to > burnish the image of the Negro - we think this is fun and > we are going to do it,' " Mr. Kennedy said. "Frankly, I > felt inspired by that." > > Erroll McDonald, Mr. Kennedy's editor at Pantheon and one > of the few senior African-American editors in book > publishing, was delighted with the manuscript. "I > appreciated its importance instantly," he said, "It is just > such a curious word that provokes atavistic passions in > people, and I thought it was time for a proper reckoning > with it." He continued: "I for one am appalled by that > euphemism `the N word.' It seems an elision of something > that would be better off talked about. There are some > people out there talking about the `N- word' that do regard > a certain section of the population as niggers." > > Mr. McDonald enjoyed the reactions of colleagues, almost > all of them white. He carried a piece of paper around the > office with the word "nigger" written on it, asking people > to pronounce it. Presenting the idea at a planning session > in January, he asked about 45 editors and other executives > to say it unison. In both cases, some refused. > > "I think it is pretty fun," Mr. McDonald said, imagining > customers asking a bookstore clerk, "Can I have one > `Nigger' please? Where are your `Niggers'?" He added, "I am > not afraid of the word `nigger.' " > > Some of the sales and marketing executives, however, were > nervous, partly about how to publicize a book some would > not name aloud and partly about the subtitle. Mr. McDonald > picked the subtitle, "A Problem in American Culture," which > appeared in the Pantheon catalog sent to reviewers and > stores. But at a sales conference in August, some > executives worried that consumers might think "nigger" > referred to African-Americans and that by implication > African-Americans were the "problem," said Joy Dallanegra- > Sanger, who is white and the marketing director of the > division of Random House that includes Pantheon. > > Mr. McDonald disagreed but acquiesced. "I always thought of > `nigger' as an imaginary construct, like `goblins' or > `elves.' I never thought they actually existed, but > apparently they do in the minds of some." The subtitle was > changed to "The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word," > clarifying that the subject was a word and not a person. > > In the past, librarians and bookstore owners have sometimes > removed books from their shelves for containing the word > "nigger" in the title, including "The Nigger of the > Narcissus," by Joseph Conrad. But several bookstores, > including some catering mainly to African-Americans, said > that they planned to stock Mr. Kennedy's book. Several > noted the comedian Dick Gregory's 1964 autobiography, > "Nigger." He wrote at the time that he hoped the word would > become obsolete, but he also joked that it was advertising > for the book. > > John McWhorter, an African- American linguist and the > author of the forthcoming book "The Power of Babel" (Henry > Holt), read an early copy. He said he shared Mr. Kennedy's > hopeful fascination with the changing uses of the word > among young African-Americans and even their white friends, > suggesting that the book might further dilute the > opprobrium the word carries. "Pretty soon we are going to > have a book called `Nigger' that is going to be sitting in > front of every bookstore in the United States, and that > will be one more step toward taking the power of the word > away." > > The most immediate effect, however, is likely to be an > escalation of the debate over the politics of its use. > Richard Delgado, a Mexican-American professor at the > University of Colorado Law School, who has argued for > restrictions on hate-speech, said that he, too, feared that > Mr. Kennedy's defense of the term's novel uses would > encourage racists. But Mr. Delgado also said that Mr. > Kennedy risked slighting other ethnic groups by > underestimating the power of other slurs. Calling "nigger" > the "paradigmatic" ethnic slur was "parochial," Mr. Delgado > said. > > For his part, Mr. Dambrot, the basketball coach who lost > his job for using the word, said he favored open > discussion, even of his own mistake. He lost his suit and > worked as a stockbroker for five years before he found > another job coaching basketball, for a high school in > Akron, Ohio. This year he finally returned to coaching a > college team, at the University of Akron. > > "I try to use the whole situation as an educational tool > for the kids," he said. "I explain that you have to > understand how different people understand your words. Be > careful what you say. Every decision you make can effect > the rest of your life, and my life can be case study for > that." -- From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Sun Dec 9 12:58:36 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 13:58:36 +0100 Subject: Huacamole.... Haki-mono Message-ID: No, haki-mono is not an antedate for kimono. Hakimono simply means "shoes". Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From mnewman at QC.EDU Sun Dec 9 16:48:10 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 11:48:10 -0500 Subject: n-word In-Reply-To: <3C12F532.D9145F97@corn.cso.niu.edu> Message-ID: >ct. > >Ooops. > >I'm afraid I made things worse, not better, by pointing out that I'm used >to talking about words in the classroom even when they are words I don't >use when speaking in my own voice. (I offered the examples of "fuck" and >"shit" -- words I would not consider using in a classroom UNLESS I was >considering them as words rather than using them as expressions of my >feelings.) I pointed out that it is literally true that Malinowski used >the word "nigger" in his diaries, and I was referring to that fact, not >joining him in his application of the word. I said that was precisely why >I could NOT recommend that students use that book for the purposes of my >assignment. I'm not sure that self criticism is appropriate. It was the student who was unreasonable and illogical, and fortunately she evidently came to see that she reacted inappropriately and didn't cause further problems. It is necessary to sensitive to others' responses to language in classrooms. It is also necessary to realize the history of dehumanization and pain that goes into the power of the word "nigger." But what offends can be hard to anticipate, and if we are being professional, then inappropriate responses by students are not our fault. On the article, I am struck by the fact that the contemporary use of the r-less version to mean "dude" (discussed a month or so ago) is mentioned only in a confused and incomplete way. It is only the r-ful version that retains a racial sense among most inner city kids. -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 10 10:11:46 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 05:11:46 EST Subject: War on Poverty (1955); The Way It Is; Fight Terms Message-ID: WAR ON POVERTY (continued) It's about a decade before LBJ. "Great Society" is almost here as well! From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 29 November 1955, pg. 24, col. 1 (editorials): _"Waging War on Poverty"_ It is a function of the good society to strive ceaselessly and imaginatively to improve the material condition of its members within a framework of freedom. In that context, Governor Harriman's proposal for a bi-partisan commission to study ways of raising the earning capacity of New York State's lower-income groups is highly commendable. (...) (Col. 2--ed.) It is rather unfortunate that Governor Harriman, in making his suggestions for government action, chose to characterize them as "waging a war on poverty." It is a fine phrase, but the Governor's program is only a skirmish line, or a mopping-up action. -------------------------------------------------------- THE WAY IT IS (continued) A cartoon caption (the Soviet Union is forcing Communism to its satellites) in the NYHT, 10 November 1955, pg. 26, col. 3: "This Is the Way It Is and This Is the Way It's Going to Stay!" -------------------------------------------------------- WASHINGTON: FIRST IN WAR... I don't know what date Fred Shapiro has for this. From Red Smith's column in the NYHT, 1 November 1955, section 3, pg. 1, col. 1: "WASHINGTON--first in war, first in peace, and last in the American League." If that witticism wasn't what killed vaudeville, it'll have to take the blame until somebody offers a more poisonous gag. Chances are, however, that the line was convulsing audiences even before Griff got to the capital, for he didn't have the original copyright on terrible teams. -------------------------------------------------------- THE LITTLE PICTURE The opposite of the "Big Picture," but not used as often. From the NYHT, 27 November 1955, section 2, pg. 5, col. 1: _"The Little Picture" Throws_ _Light on School Problems_ _Focus on a Small Town and Its People_ (...) (Col. 2--ed.) The way to get hold of the monster, the producers felt, was to "narrow the focus" and capture, in Mr. Murrow's terms, "the little picture." -------------------------------------------------------- SOPHOMORE JINX Not in the OED. See the old ADS-L archives for "jinx" and "cover jinx," although I think they've been destroyed. From an interview with George Gobel in TV AND RADIO MAGAZINE, NYHT, 20 November 1955, pg. 6, col. 2: Q. What does Gobel think of the old "Sophomore Jinx"? A. The "Sophomore Jinx" is a phrase invented by the press, and since used in a number of articles discussing George's current season. George is not too concerned about the "jinx" as such. His job will remain to get the best possible material and to make the most of it on the show. He feels that viewers will continue to buy entertainment regardless whether the show is in its second, third, fourth or fifth year. -------------------------------------------------------- FIGHT TERMS From TV AND RADIO MAGAZINE, NYHT, 6 November 1955, pg. 23, col. 1: _A GLOSSARY OF FIGHT TERMS for TV FANS_ _by Jack Gregson_ (...) Here are some of the salty expressions of the ring that properly translated into our everyday language gives the television boxing fan some more of the color of one of the world's oldest sports. Terms used in the ring during the heat of battle: 1. "Painter"--a light-fisted boxer whose skilled hands reach his opponents face rpeatedly, with telling effect. 2. "Stick and Run"--a tactical maneuver to jab and yet keep out of reach of a murderous puncher. 3. "Brick-layer"--a fighter with dynamite-laden fists. 4. "Powder-Puff"--a ringman whose punches are timid and non-effective. 5. "Timber"--a fighter who has been softened up by an avalanche of (Col. 2--ed.) blows and is ready to hit the canvas for the knockout. 6. "Bow-Wow"--term describing a fighter, short on courage. 7. "Foot-in-Bucket"--a handler who is awkward in the corner and generally is a greater hindrance than a help. Then there are fight terms that are used in the everyday give and take of the professional boxing business. "Broker"--any boxing man who is down on his luck. "We Wuz Robbed"--one of the expressions created by the late Joe Jacobs to describe a bad decision when his heavyweight Mex Schmeling lost to Jack Sharkey. "Only a Baby"--the plaint of a boxing manager whose inexperienced fighter has been offered a match with a skilled veteran. "_We_ Win"--the manager's proud boast, after his fighter has won a match. "_He_ Fought Like a Bum"--the manager's statement when his fighter has lost (note the change from plural to singular). "Cut up like Swiss Cheese"--allusion to a fighter who has more than two managers sharing his purse. "Cutie"--a fighter knows every trick of the trade--good and bad--and uses them. "Tomato Can"--an inferior fighter. This reference is generally made by one manager describing another manager's fighter. From Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM Mon Dec 10 16:17:05 2001 From: Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:17:05 -0500 Subject: "southernisms" Message-ID: >From "Philadelphia Citypaper.net" http://www.citypaper.net/articles/081497/article008.shtml August 14?21, 1997 cover story Phillyspeak By Jim Quinn's guide to Philadelphia English ? spoken here like nowhere else in the world. [...] But, sadly, articles about our weird and wonderful dialect always stick to old jokes like: "Jeet yet?" "No. Jew?" That's not Philadelphia dialect. That's just plain old American Slur Colloquial. Philadelphians talk that way when they're in a hurry, sure. But so does everybody else in the Northern United States. Concentrating on "Jeet" and"Jew" is like describing the hot dog as Philadelphia food. We do eat hot dogs. But if you want to know Philly, you have to try that great, gooey watch-your-shirt midnight dripper, the cheesesteak. [...] Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company : speech recognition 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM Mon Dec 10 16:28:30 2001 From: Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:28:30 -0500 Subject: n-word Message-ID: Michael Newman wrote >>> On the article, I am struck by the fact that the contemporary use of the r-less version to mean "dude" (discussed a month or so ago) is mentioned only in a confused and incomplete way. It is only the r-ful version that retains a racial sense among most inner city kids. <<< In r-less dialects like those of NYC and Boston, how can they tell? Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company : speech recognition 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 10 04:08:08 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:08:08 +0800 Subject: more lexicographic gaps Message-ID: Since so much of what we discuss here is either lexical semantics or lexical pragmatics, it's worth requesting that subsequent editions of the OED and AHD contain an entry for "pragmaticist" as well as for "semanticist". Right now, the AHD4 has one for the latter (= 'a specialist in semantics') but none for the former, while the OED on-line has no entry for either one. I haven't checked to see what other dictionaries do here. larry P.S. The OED entry for "pragmatist", linking it to "pragmatism" rather than to "pragmatics" [which, incidentally, is entered under sense B4 of "pragmatic"], looks fine to me, although I wouldn't be surprised to find some cites of "pragmatist" for what I'd always call "pragmaticist", i.e. 'a specialist in pragmatics' From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Mon Dec 10 17:09:58 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:09:58 -0500 Subject: FW: Re: "southernisms" Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Ellen Johnson Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 12:04 PM To: 'lsparlin at rollanet.org' Subject: RE: Re: "southernisms" you mean want and won't aren't pronounced the same? Ellen -----Original Message----- From: Linda Sparlin [mailto:lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 2:42 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "southernisms" Is not "tump" simply a blend of "turn" and "dump"? As in "...turned it over" or "...dumped it over" ? And I have to disagree slightly with the pronunciation of "Jeet chet?" and "Yont to?" "Yont" rhymes with "want," not "won't." It's simply lazy enunciation, rushed/compressed into fewer distinct sounds, meaning "Did you eat yet?" and "Do you want to?" in all of MO, OK, KS, IL, as far east as Cleveland (my only experience.) Haven't read the whole string - so my apologies if this has already been suggested. Linda _____________________ ...funny this should show up in the Atl Journal-Constitution's anonymously called in "Vent" section this week. did one of you submit it? "Favorite 'you-can't-get-more-Southern-than-this' Southernism: 'tumped over' --- 'I reached to get my beer and accidentally tumped it over.'" Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it on a sign at a Taco Bell: Jeet chet? Yont to? [yont rhymes with won't, of course] is anybody besides me a fan of the very definitely dated video from our own Preston and Shuy on varieties of am eng? well, a fan of some parts of it anyway, esp this section on style. every time I hear a comment on jeet chet I think of that guy (who also did a skit of middle-aged hopelessly uncool dude trying to be hip by using slang, who is he anyway? dInIs?) Ellen Johnson Assistant Professor of Linguistics Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing Berry College, Box 350 Mt. Berry, GA 30149 706-368-5638 http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ ejohnson at berry.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Dec 10 17:32:36 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:32:36 -0500 Subject: "southernisms" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, I collect such stuff, but I'm having trouble in your message telling which part is your comment and which is taken from the source. Can you clear it up for us? Others might also like to know. Thanks, dInIs > >From "Philadelphia Citypaper.net" >http://www.citypaper.net/articles/081497/article008.shtml > >August 14?21, 1997 >cover story > >Phillyspeak > >By Jim Quinn's guide to Philadelphia English ? spoken here like nowhere >else in the world. > > [...] >But, sadly, articles about our weird and wonderful dialect always stick to >old jokes like: > >"Jeet yet?" > >"No. Jew?" > >That's not Philadelphia dialect. That's just plain old American Slur >Colloquial. Philadelphians talk that way when they're in a hurry, sure. But >so does everybody else in the Northern United States. Concentrating on >"Jeet" and"Jew" is like describing the hot dog as Philadelphia food. We do >eat hot dogs. But if you want to know Philly, you have to try that great, >gooey watch-your-shirt midnight dripper, the cheesesteak. > [...] > > > Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist > Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company : speech recognition > 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Dec 10 18:21:05 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:21:05 -0500 Subject: coons & cutters Message-ID: What are they? The following paragraph was prompted by a report that boys had been arrested at 2 in the morning while playing pranks in the street with a fire engine they'd taken from a fire house. In the passage quoted, the editor is evidently representing the boys as trying to act like the grown-ups they admired, by talking like them. The dictionaries show "coon" = person, man, as current at about this time, but the most likely meaning for "cutter" (= an attractive girl) comes from the 1870s. Are there other meanings? "The engine house has been the ruin of many a lad, and we hope the firemen will now longer allow them to have keys, which almost every little bantling, from 12 to 16, has in his possession, and may be seen at the corner of streets vociferating loudly, "this is a coon, and that's a cutter;" talking of overflowing, the length of leader, and with mathematical precision calculating the strokes of the piston." Evening Star, September 17, 1834, p. 2, col. 4 I might mention that the firemen at this time were all volunteers. They had had excellent reputations as being young men in training in their day-jobs to be merchants and business men. A decade or so later, the fire houses were seen to be under the patronage of politicians, and the firemen as thugs and brawlers who were more useful in enforcing correct voting during elections than in putting out fires. Boss Tweed's original power base was a firehouse, and there is still a firehouse in lower Manhattan with the face of the Tammany tiger on its engines. I don't see "leader" in the OED, with reference to fire-hose. "Overflowing" was otherwise called "washing". If a fire wasn't near a source of sufficient water, the firemen would set up a daisy-chain of fire-engines, one at the source of water, drawing it up and pumping it into the tank of another machine nearer the fire, and from that, perhaps, into a third machine, until the water reached a machine at the fire. The pumps were worked by hand, and it was a matter of pride for the firemen working the first machine in line to pump so vigorously that the men working the next machine couldn't keep up, and the water overflowed their tank. (It might be questioned whether this game was a constructive one. The firemen dragged the fire-engines to the fire by hand -- horses weren't used -- and an English traveller had observed that they used so much energy in yelling while pulling the machines that he wondered that they weren't exhausted when they got to the fire.) GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 10 19:41:51 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:41:51 EST Subject: Huacamole (1894) Message-ID: Huacamole/Guacamole/Quacamole. OED and M-W have 1920. Here's the cite. TEXAN RANCH LIFE by Mary Jaques Horace Cox, London 1894 Pg. 286: The _portales_ of the fruit market were very fine and we enjoyed the prickly pears--when they had been peeled for us. One evening in the dusk we bought some _chirimollas_ and _aguacate_, mistaking the latter for figs. They were anything but pleasant, but after being dressed according to Mr. Barrow's orders, made a nice dish known as "huacamole." The figs and bananas at the hotel were delicious. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 10 19:48:02 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:48:02 EST Subject: Little Italy (San Francisco); Safe for Democracy Message-ID: LITTLE ITALY (SAN FRANCISCO) "In Little Italy" is the photo caption for a story "Old Wine in New Bottles," about San Francisco's Italian population, in SUNSET magazine, June 1913, volume 30, page 524. Alas, no "cioppino" here. -------------------------------------------------------- SAFE FOR DEMOCRACY I don't know what Fred Shapiro has. RECRUITING POSTERS ISSUED BY THE U. S. NAVY SINCE THE DECLARATION OF WAR PRESS U. S. NAVY RECRUITING BUREAU 1918 (No page number. A navy man looks at you with arms folded--ed.) _He is keeping_ _the World safe_ _for Democracy_ _Enlist and help him_ (Clifford Carleton, artist. I was looking for "Join the Navy and See the World," but it's not here--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 10 20:00:54 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:00:54 EST Subject: La Cucaracha Message-ID: BULLETS, BOTTLES, AND GARDENIAS by Timothy G. Turner South-West Press Dallas, Texas 1935 Turner's book is a fabulous read. I showed some stuff to David Shulman today, and he was interested in this song, which is well-attested here. Pg. 178: "La Cucaracha," both in its sprightly aid and its curious, endless verses, was one of the notable pieces of Mexican folk music, the "corridos" that are something like the American Negro ballads such as "Frankie and Johnny" and the blueses. I had first heard it in the Orozco revolution and knew many verses. Now the Villistas had taken it up, adding verses as the campaign progressed and singing it as they went into battle. "La Cucaracha" originally came from southern Mexico and was a song of the smokers of marihuana. (Mexican form of Indian hemp), a narcotic drug which has stages of great excitation to the addict. The word "cucaracha," is Spanish for cockroach, but in this sense it is a slang word for the marihuana addict, or marihuanero, which makes some sense out of the chorus: "La cucaracha, la cucaracha Ya no puede caminar, Porque le falta, porque no tiene Marihuana que fumar." (The cucaracha, the cucaracha, He can't travel any more, Because he lacks, because he lacks Marihuana for to smoke.) (Music notation on facing page, a photo of Villa soldier singing on another page, longer lyrics follow this page--ed.) From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 10 21:41:47 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:41:47 -0500 Subject: coons & cutters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >... The dictionaries show "coon" = person, man, as current at about this >time, but the most likely meaning for "cutter" (= an attractive girl) >comes from the 1870s. Are there other meanings? From the context presented, I would speculate that "coon" and "cutter" refer not to persons but to pieces of equipment. A cutter might be some type of cutting tool; "coon" is opaque to me. Both Coon and Cutter are reasonably common surnames; perhaps hoses or pumps or fire-axes or boots or whatever came in Coon(tm) and Cutter(tm) brands. Another possibility: "coon" = "washer", an engine whose capacity permits overflow [a raccoon is traditionally an animal which 'washes' things], "cutter" = the opposite, an engine which is of inadequate capacity and which thus "cuts" the available overall flow. Still another possibility: one type of fire or building might have been designated "coon" because it called for climbing, another "cutter" because it called for cutting through a wall or door. Just wild speculations from ignorance. >I don't see "leader" in the OED, with reference to fire-hose. Here it is: http://www.emergency-world.com/eh/terms.htm -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 11 00:41:56 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:41:56 EST Subject: Romaine (Caesar?) Salad in Coronado, Calif. Message-ID: This continues ADS-L discussion of "Caesar salad." Supposedly, Caesar Cardini came up with it on July 4th, 1924, but the earliest "Caesar salad" cite I have is 1947 (GOURMET magazine, published in Los Angeles). I have earlier "Romaine salad" cites that are similar. A copy of this is being sent to the Hotel del Coronado, which helped look through its historic menus but didn't find anything this early. I've looked at all of the SUNSET cookbooks, but I decided to go through the magazine 1945-1947. From SUNSET magazine, March 1945, pg. 27, col. 1: _A SALAD TO REMEMBER_ Down in Coronado, California, there's a restaurant called La Avenida Cafe which is known as the "Home of Romaine Salad." Small wonder, for the salad which is their _specialte de la maison_ is a dish to tempt the epicure. Here's the recipe as given us by S. Jack Clapp, who is La Avenida's authority on such matters. _ROMAINE SALAD_ 3 or 4 heads chilled, crisp Romaine 2 handfuls crisp croutons (little cubes pf fried bread) 6 tablespoons garlic oil 4 tablespoons olive oil Salt and black pepper to taste 1 tablespoon Worcestershire sauce 6 heaping tablespoons grated Parmesan-type cheese 1 egg Juice of 3 lemons Break the Romaine into a salad bowl; add croutons, oil, seasonings, and cheese. Break the raw egg over the salad, then pour the lemon juice over the egg. Toss all together lightly from the bottom, and serve. Serves 6. Regarding the ingredients, Mr. Clapp has this to say: _Romaine:_ Purchase pale green heads. Remove outer leaves, wash thoroughly, shake dry, and chill in refrigerator. _Garlic Oil:_ Chop or mash a clove of garlic and place in bottom of a pint jar. Fill jar with any salad oil except olive oil, keep at kitchen temperature, and use as needed. Use the oil only; don't add the garlic to the salad. _Olive Oil:_ In the case of this particular salad, best results are obtained if only a part (4 tablespoons) of the oil used is olive oil. _Black Pepper:_ If possible, grin it yourself with a pepper mill. Use plenty. _Parmesan-type Cheese:_ Ideally, this should be freshly grated. _Egg:_ The raw egg acts as a binder and causes the dressing to be evenly distributed through the salad. The flavor of the egg is not detectable in the finished salad. With the salad, Mr. Clapp suggests serving Garlic Toast. To make it, split French rolls, brush the cut surface with garlic oil, sprinkle with Parmesan-type cheese and paprika, and heat in the oven. From SUNSET, July 1946, "Chefs of the West," pg. 45, col. 1: Comet Brooks concludes...with two classic recipes: (...) _ROMAINE SALAD_ 1 large clove garlic 4 small heads romaine 2 eggs, boiled 1 minute 10 tablespoons Parmesan cheese 1 teaspoon Worcestershire sauce 1/4 cup olive oil 2 tablespoons tarragon wine vinegar 2 cups croutons Salt and freshly ground pepper Juice 1 lemon Mash garlic clove in salad bowl and rub around sides. Add romaine, torn in fairly large pieces. Scoop the soft-cooked eggs out onto the greens. Add other ingredients, using lemon juice last. Toss well with hands. Serve _al fresco_ with toasted garlic bread, a light, dry California wine, and a fresh fruit compote, well chilled. Comet Brooks (signed--ed.) Canoga Park, California From SUNSET, March 1946, pg. 48, col. 2: _Green salads_ (..) Here's the recipe for one of our favorite green salads, _Romaine salad_, which appeared in _Sunset_ in March 1945. (I did _not_ find the name "Caesar Salad" in SUNSET through the end of 1947--ed.) From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Tue Dec 11 01:56:23 2001 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:56:23 -0500 Subject: n-word Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 23:22:58 -0600 Mike Salovesh writes: > Some years ago, I got in terrible trouble because I said the "n-word" > in > what I innocently thought was an entirely appropriate way. WARNING: > I use > that word in what follows There may be earlier citations, but I had never heard the euphemism, "the N-word," prior to the O.J. Simpson trial. I suspect that the media coverage is what brought that into common parlance. But I think it did more than that. I believe that Cochran's doubtless deliberate and deliberated use of the euphemism made the actual word even more taboo than it had been before. I found it fascinating that F. Lee Bailey used the entire word when quoting ... what was his name, the detective? ... but not Cochran. And I have little doubt that that was carefully choreographed. You certainly did nothing wrong by quoting a word in a graduate class on language. I find the phenomenon more interesting sociologically than linguistically. In a culture where we no longer use rattles and grotesque masques to cure diseases, there are still words that cannot be spoken aloud. D From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Dec 11 04:05:56 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:05:56 -0500 Subject: more lexicographic gaps Message-ID: A lexicographer's two cents: A more pedestrian gap I noticed the other day in my OED disk (text search) and other dictionaries in my collection is "legally blind," a very worthy lexical item. Even Black's Law Dictionary skirts the issue. There are many good definitions on the Internet. Does anyone know of a dictionary that enters "legally blind"? TOM. Laurence Horn wrote: > > Since so much of what we discuss here is either lexical semantics or > lexical pragmatics, it's worth requesting that subsequent editions of > the OED and AHD contain an entry for "pragmaticist" as well as for > "semanticist". Right now, the AHD4 has one for the latter (= 'a > specialist in semantics') but none for the former, while the OED > on-line has no entry for either one. I haven't checked to see what > other dictionaries do here. > > larry > > P.S. The OED entry for "pragmatist", linking it to "pragmatism" > rather than to "pragmatics" [which, incidentally, is entered under > sense B4 of "pragmatic"], looks fine to me, although I wouldn't be > surprised to find some cites of "pragmatist" for what I'd always call > "pragmaticist", i.e. 'a specialist in pragmatics' From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 10 16:10:04 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 00:10:04 +0800 Subject: n-word In-Reply-To: <20011210.221316.-281971.2.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: At 8:56 PM -0500 12/10/01, Duane Campbell wrote: >On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 23:22:58 -0600 Mike Salovesh > writes: >> Some years ago, I got in terrible trouble because I said the "n-word" >> in >> what I innocently thought was an entirely appropriate way. WARNING: >> I use >> that word in what follows > >There may be earlier citations, but I had never heard the euphemism, "the >N-word," prior to the O.J. Simpson trial. I suspect that the media >coverage is what brought that into common parlance. Curiously, this would chronologically privilege the very different use of "n-word" within the linguistics of negative concord and polarity--referring to negative indefinites like Spanish "nada", "nadie", "nunca" and their cross-linguistic analogues, as originally coined by Itziar Laka in her 1990 MIT dissertation. That, of course, was not a euphemism for anything. larry From mnewman at QC.EDU Tue Dec 11 13:37:15 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:37:15 -0500 Subject: n-word In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Michael Newman wrote > >>>> >On the article, I am struck by the fact that the contemporary use of >the r-less version to mean "dude" (discussed a month or so ago) is >mentioned only in a confused and incomplete way. It is only the r-ful >version that retains a racial sense among most inner city kids. ><<< > >In r-less dialects like those of NYC and Boston, how can they tell? > > Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist > Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company : speech recognition > 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com I've wondered about this myself. The difference is clearly there conceptually, since it was reported to me by several kids, as well as it being written with an -a ending. Also, if there were a vowel following, an r would appear. However, the -r form just isn't said, or is said very rarely. I only have one instance of it, a girl saying "I'm a Niggerican" (=half African-American, half Puerto Rican), and that totally neutralizes the difference. I suspect there may be a difference in vowel quality. -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 From LY053421 at ONLINE.SH.CN Tue Dec 11 13:33:23 2001 From: LY053421 at ONLINE.SH.CN (Leo) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:33:23 +0800 Subject: red carpet Message-ID: Hi everyone, Does anybody there know the etymology of "red carpet"? Thanks. Gao Yongwei Fudan University, China From NameOneNE1 at AOL.COM Tue Dec 11 13:54:35 2001 From: NameOneNE1 at AOL.COM (NameOneNE1 at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:54:35 EST Subject: Dictionary and Name Review Newsletter Message-ID: American Heritage Dictionary with Word Hunter? I would like to buy a version of this dictionary for my new Ibook Mac computer. I had it in my old computer. It has a great feature called Word Hunter or Word Finder. Anyone know where I can find one? Also, I invite you to receive my free newsletter on Product Names, where I review and give a point score to a commercial name in each concise semi-monthly issue. lauren at nameone.net Lauren Teton Name One! Pound Ridge, NY tel. 914 764-0115 Better Names for Business http://nameone.net http://talkingnames.com From grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET Tue Dec 11 14:11:52 2001 From: grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:11:52 -0500 Subject: Google Groups Message-ID: Google Groups is out of beta, and now archiving 20 years of Usenet postings. See things such as the first mention of Madonna or Apple Macintosh. Whip out your current antedating projects... http://www.google.com/grphp From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 11 15:28:23 2001 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:28:23 -0800 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: .... I > suppose that the army's > issuance of these items was looked upon as simply > more foolish fooling > around, akin to SNAFU, etc. > Martin Murie Martin, you mean it was Mickey Mouse? ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM Tue Dec 11 16:27:53 2001 From: Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:27:53 -0500 Subject: "southernisms" Message-ID: dInIs requests clarification from me: >>> I collect such stuff, but I'm having trouble in your message telling which part is your comment and which is taken from the source. Can you clear it up for us? Others might also like to know. <<< Everything that you quoted from my post after the attribution and the URL was taken from that article, which is at that URL even as I type these characters. (The bracketed ellipses show my deletions.) I apologize for the confusion. And I wish I could remember where I originally got the reference from. -- Mark From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 11 18:47:28 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:47:28 EST Subject: La Cucaracha-- Message-ID: In a message dated 12/10/2001 3:02:25 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << "La cucaracha, la cucaracha Ya no puede caminar, >> I was SURE that I heard << "La cucaracha, la cucaracha Yo no quero la comer>> Could this have been a drug-free version for the America of the J.Edgar Hoover era? From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Dec 11 19:02:39 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:02:39 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: <20011211152823.92042.qmail@web9706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, like this: a triad, Disney Mouse/ Bunny Boots/ The Army Way. Martin >.... I >> suppose that the army's >> issuance of these items was looked upon as simply >> more foolish fooling >> around, akin to SNAFU, etc. >> Martin Murie > > >Martin, you mean it was Mickey Mouse? > > > >===== >James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything >SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued >jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of >your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com >or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Dec 11 19:03:21 2001 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:03:21 -0600 Subject: La Cucaracha-- In-Reply-To: <79.1fa67b2d.2947aec0@aol.com> Message-ID: A cucaracha also is a rattley old car. Barry has the line the way I've heard the song. It's a punny song. DMLance > From: RonButters at AOL.COM > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:47:28 EST > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: La Cucaracha-- > > In a message dated 12/10/2001 3:02:25 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > > << "La cucaracha, la cucaracha > > Ya no puede caminar, >> > > I was SURE that I heard > > << "La cucaracha, la cucaracha > > Yo no quero la comer>> > > Could this have been a drug-free version for the America of the J.Edgar > Hoover era? > From mnewman at QC.EDU Tue Dec 11 19:12:38 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:12:38 -0500 Subject: La Cucaracha-- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >A cucaracha also is a rattley old car. Barry has the line the way I've >heard the song. It's a punny song. >DMLance > >> From: RonButters at AOL.COM >> Reply-To: American Dialect Society >> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:47:28 EST >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: La Cucaracha-- >> >> In a message dated 12/10/2001 3:02:25 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: >> >> << "La cucaracha, la cucaracha >> >> Ya no puede caminar, >> >> >> I was SURE that I heard >> >> << "La cucaracha, la cucaracha >> >> Yo no quero la comer>> > > > > Could this have been a drug-free version for the America of the J.Edgar > > Hoover era? > > Except that Spanish doesn't allow clitics between verb and infinitive. -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College Flushing, NY 11367 From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Tue Dec 11 19:22:21 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:22:21 -0500 Subject: red carpet Message-ID: If you are referring to the figurative term meaning a ceremonial welcome or lavish reception, it derives from the practice of laying down a red carpet on formal occasions to greet important visitors. I don't know how long that's been common, but the OED has a 1905 quotation from the Westminster Gazette: "There were waiting on the red-carpeted platform . . . officials representing the railway company." John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: Leo [SMTP:LY053421 at ONLINE.SH.CN] > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 8:33 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: red carpet > > Hi everyone, > > Does anybody there know the etymology of "red carpet"? > > Thanks. > > Gao Yongwei > Fudan University, > China > From davemarc at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 11 19:33:00 2001 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:33:00 -0500 Subject: La Cucaracha-- Message-ID: This might shed some light on the subject: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010727.html Cheers, David From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Dec 11 19:41:03 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:41:03 -0800 Subject: red carpet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Back in the 50s, when cattle cars never flew and airlines competed with each other and with the railroads by offering courteous service, United Airlines offered "Red Carpet Service" on its premium transcontinental first-class flights. Even though the service included an actual red carpet rolled out toward the gate from the stairway leading down from the plane (a new DC-7!!!), I'm not sure whether United's literal carpet was continuing the literal tradition, or whether it was re-creating it after the figurative term (or maybe both?). Peter Mc. --On Tuesday, December 11, 2001 2:22 PM -0500 "Baker, John" wrote: > If you are referring to the figurative term meaning a ceremonial > welcome or lavish reception, it derives from the practice of laying down a > red carpet on formal occasions to greet important visitors. I don't know > how long that's been common, but the OED has a 1905 quotation from the > Westminster Gazette: "There were waiting on the red-carpeted platform . > . . officials representing the railway company." **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Dec 11 21:01:18 2001 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:01:18 -0600 Subject: La Cucaracha-- In-Reply-To: <020a01c1827a$a739f960$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> Message-ID: La cucaracha, la cucaracha Ya no puede caminar Porque no tiene, porque le falta Marijuana que fumar. (The cockroach, the cockroach Now he can't go traveling Because he doesn't have, because he lacks Marijuana to smoke.) Ya la murio la cucaracha Ya la lleven a enterrar Entre cuatro zopilotes Y un raton de sacristan. (The cockroach just died And they carried him off to bury him Among four buzzards And the sexton's mouse.) The genre of this song is the relación, a satirical form of folk song in Spain that survives as the corrido in Mexico and Texas. Every decent Texas conjunto has to know the corridos on the deaths of Kennedy brothers, on Hurricane Beulah, and other events. When I was a graduate student, I did a term paper on the personification of animals in these songs in Mexico. In the last line, the sexton is a mouse -- and the buzzards are the pall bearers. Though the composer of early versions may have been satirizing a particular person or event, as with all folk traditions, adaptation is the plan that wins the game in the end. The cucaracha is now just a cochroach, an old jalopy, or a traditional Mexican icon that may be used as the name of a restaurant. If you go to the StraightDope site, you'll see the car reference that may have turned the old Spanish song into a Mexican icon of sorts. The word "may" suffuses all reports on folk items like this one. DMLance > From: davemarc > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:33:00 -0500 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: La Cucaracha-- > > This might shed some light on the subject: > > http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010727.html > > Cheers, > > David > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Dec 11 23:41:51 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:41:51 EST Subject: THE TOP TEN REASONS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD CELEBRATE HANUKKAH Message-ID: Almost totally irrelevant to philology and the ADS list, but too good not to share: No. 10 No big, fat guy getting stuck in your chimney No. 9 Cleaning wax off your menorah is slightly easier than dismantling an 8-foot tall fir tree No. 8 Compare: chocolate gelt vs. fruitcake No. 7 You get to learn cool new words like "Kislev" and "far-shtoonken-ah" No. 6 No brutal let-down when you discover that Santa Claus isn't real No. 5 Your neighbors are unlikely to complain about how your menorah is blinding them senseless No. 4 It's like a big reunion when everyone gathers at the Chinese restaurant on Christmas Eve No. 3 In a holiday character face-off, Judah Macabee could kick Frosty's butt No. 2 No need to clean up big piles of reindeer poop off your roof And the Number One reason why everyone should celebrate Hanukkah is: **.None of that Naughty-Nice crap**EVERYONE GETS LOOT !!! HAPPY HANUKKAH !!! From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Dec 12 00:12:45 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:12:45 -0500 Subject: THE TOP TEN REASONS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD CELEBRATE HANUKKAH In-Reply-To: <80.14952abf.2947f3bf@aol.com> Message-ID: Someone forgot FREEDOM FROM THE LITTLE DRUMMER BOY. - A. Murie ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jas. A. Landau wrote: >Almost totally irrelevant to philology and the ADS list, but too good not to >share: > >No. 10 >No big, fat guy getting stuck in your chimney > >No. 9 >Cleaning wax off your menorah is slightly easier >than dismantling an 8-foot tall fir tree > >No. 8 >Compare: chocolate gelt vs. fruitcake > >No. 7 >You get to learn cool new words like "Kislev" and >"far-shtoonken-ah" > >No. 6 >No brutal let-down when you discover that Santa >Claus isn't real > >No. 5 >Your neighbors are unlikely to complain about how >your menorah is blinding them senseless > >No. 4 >It's like a big reunion when everyone gathers at the >Chinese restaurant on Christmas Eve > >No. 3 >In a holiday character face-off, Judah Macabee could >kick Frosty's butt > >No. 2 >No need to clean up big piles of reindeer poop off >your roof > >And the Number One reason why everyone should >celebrate Hanukkah is: > >**.None of that Naughty-Nice crap**EVERYONE GETS >LOOT !!! > >HAPPY HANUKKAH !!! From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Wed Dec 12 13:12:30 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:12:30 +0100 Subject: Red carpet Message-ID: Quidfrance under the following address http://www.extense.com/bin/x2cgi_view.cgi?userID=64393794&view=on&query=tapis+roug&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quid.fr%2Fweb.php%3Fweb%3D%2FWEB%2FTRANSPOR%2FQ042870.HTM#marker has: "1842-13-6 tapis rouge déployé à la gare de Paddington pour le 1er voyage ferroviaire de la reine Victoria (Slough-Londres)." (13.6.1842 red carpet rolled out at Paddington Station for the first railway trip of Queen Victoria, Slough-London) On the Internet I also found this, which might lead to a first date for U.S. - the events must have been reported in Houston (?) newspapers: "Grainger was a director in what later became First City National Bank, and also served as a councilman in boomtown Houston. Each of his four daughters was married in a ceremony that stopped the carriage traffic: a red carpet stretched across Texas Avenue from the family home to the Cathedral. Pictured are Alice Grainger and Col. Nathaniel Alston Taylor of North Carolina on their wedding day in 1867. " http://www.christchurchcathedral.org/generationA.html Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 12 17:05:20 2001 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:05:20 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <004701c1830e$a7d63a20$051742d5@oemcomputer> Message-ID: I was intrigued to discover this morning that the preferred pronunciation of the last syllable of "diabetes" in Amer. Heritage and Random House is -tis rather than -teez. In Webster's it's reversed; OED has only -teez. I always thought -tis was a regionalism; I heard it growing up in the South where it seemed to have the same status as "arthuritis" for arthritis. I am told it's also found in the Midwest. The word is not in DARE. Does anyone know if the -tis pronunciation is regionally restricted or not? Ben Fortson From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Dec 12 17:21:05 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:21:05 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Benjamin Fortson wrote: >I was intrigued to discover this morning that the preferred pronunciation >of the last syllable of "diabetes" in Amer. Heritage and Random House is >-tis rather than -teez. In Webster's it's reversed; OED has only -teez. >I always thought -tis was a regionalism; I heard it growing up in the South >where it seemed to have the same status as "arthuritis" for arthritis. I am >told it's also found in the Midwest. The word is not in DARE. Does anyone >know if the -tis pronunciation is regionally restricted or not? For what it's worth, I've seen the spelling "diabetis" fairly regularly from certain posters on the usenet diabetes support groups. I've never understood where this came from, as it's certainly not something I've noticed here in the northeast. One particular poster, who used to use this spelling *a lot* is a good enough writer that the "mis-spelling" really stood out. She's lived in Alaska most of her adult life, but, if I remember the autobiographical details she's posted correctly, she grew up in Michigan (I'm not sure where). -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Wed Dec 12 18:02:20 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:02:20 -0800 Subject: diabetes Message-ID: Ben: > I was intrigued to discover this morning that the preferred pronunciation > of the last syllable of "diabetes" in Amer. Heritage and Random House is > -tis rather than -teez. In Webster's it's reversed; OED has only -teez. > I always thought -tis was a regionalism; I heard it growing up in the South > where it seemed to have the same status as "arthuritis" for arthritis. I am > told it's also found in the Midwest. The word is not in DARE. Does anyone > know if the -tis pronunciation is regionally restricted or not? That's kinda weird. I've heard "arthur-itis" and "diabetis" in Seattle, and I grew up here(and have mostly lived here), so I should know. "Diabetis" seems to be a fairly common pronunciation here, but I've only heard "arthur-itis" once or twice, mostly among older folks. Anne G From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Wed Dec 12 18:06:23 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:06:23 -0800 Subject: diabetes Message-ID: Alice: > For what it's worth, I've seen the spelling "diabetis" fairly > regularly from certain posters on the usenet diabetes support groups. > I've never understood where this came from, as it's certainly not > something I've noticed here in the northeast. One particular poster, > who used to use this spelling *a lot* is a good enough writer that > the "mis-spelling" really stood out. She's lived in Alaska most of > her adult life, but, if I remember the autobiographical details she's > posted correctly, she grew up in Michigan (I'm not sure where). This gets weirder. I've never seen the *spelling* "diabetis", just the pronunciation. But then, I may not be reading the right kind of literature. Anne G From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Dec 12 18:14:12 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:14:12 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <004301c18337$b8411f00$77fcfd3f@u5a9c9> Message-ID: Ya'll should remember that some schwa-like sounds are more [I] like in southern speech. If one does not give some stress to the last syllable (permitting [i]), it's going to end up as a schwa; if that schwa is more /I/ like, some of y'all northerners might have been fooled. That is, it may simply be vowel reduction with regional quality variation. On the other hand, that variation may have led to "real" /I/ pronunciations (although that would seem to require some degree of stress). (I just noticed I called the phoneme rather than the phone "real." Heaven help me!) Of course, "medical -itis" (the spelling only) may also play a role here. dInIs (who always notes the more [I]-like pronunciation of his last syllable, even when unstressed, the farther south he goes) PS: I'm just jerkin y'all around by putting the apostrophe in different places in ya'll. Y'all don't need to write in about it no more. >Alice: > >> For what it's worth, I've seen the spelling "diabetis" fairly >> regularly from certain posters on the usenet diabetes support groups. >> I've never understood where this came from, as it's certainly not >> something I've noticed here in the northeast. One particular poster, >> who used to use this spelling *a lot* is a good enough writer that >> the "mis-spelling" really stood out. She's lived in Alaska most of >> her adult life, but, if I remember the autobiographical details she's >> posted correctly, she grew up in Michigan (I'm not sure where). > >This gets weirder. I've never seen the *spelling* "diabetis", just the >pronunciation. But then, I may not be reading the right kind of literature. >Anne G -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From dagny at EXECPC.COM Wed Dec 12 18:48:53 2001 From: dagny at EXECPC.COM (Amy L. Hayden) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:48:53 -0600 Subject: diabetes Message-ID: On the newscasts here in the Chicago area, it's almost always pronounced -tis, which has always struck me as odd (I grew up near Austin, Texas, where it was -tes). The nurses at my doctor's office both say -tis, but my doctor says -tes (she is from the South). Could it be related to north vs. south? Amy From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Dec 12 19:01:50 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:01:50 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <3C17A695.6D91123@execpc.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Amy L. Hayden wrote: >On the newscasts here in the Chicago area, it's almost always pronounced -tis, As in rhymes with "fleece"? Bethany From jeb4c4 at MIZZOU.EDU Wed Dec 12 19:21:57 2001 From: jeb4c4 at MIZZOU.EDU (Jennifer Beckman) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:21:57 -0600 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <003901c18337$27a5c5e0$77fcfd3f@u5a9c9> Message-ID: Growing up in Chicago, IL and Omaha, NE, I heard "-tis" (as well as "-teez"), although "-tis" was always my own preferred pronunciation. "Arthur-itis" is new to me, however. Jennifer Beckman From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Dec 12 20:28:44 2001 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:28:44 -0600 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The discussion is proceeding as if the variant under discussion is just a vowel, but as DInIs points out, stress also appears to be a variable here. It appears that in American English we tend not to have the lax vowel if that syllable has secondary/tertiary stress. Or maybe it's strong syllable versus weak syllable. Anyway, this is probably a lexical rather than phonological thing. Are there any other disease names that manifest this variation? I can't think of any. DMLance > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:14:12 -0500 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: diabetes > > Ya'll should remember that some schwa-like sounds are more [I] like > in southern speech. If one does not give some stress to the last > syllable (permitting [i]), it's going to end up as a schwa; if that > schwa is more /I/ like, some of y'all northerners might have been > fooled. That is, it may simply be vowel reduction with regional > quality variation. > > On the other hand, that variation may have led to "real" /I/ > pronunciations (although that would seem to require some degree of > stress). (I just noticed I called the phoneme rather than the phone > "real." Heaven help me!) > > Of course, "medical -itis" (the spelling only) may also play a role here. > > dInIs (who always notes the more [I]-like pronunciation of his last > syllable, even when unstressed, the farther south he goes) > > PS: I'm just jerkin y'all around by putting the apostrophe in > different places in ya'll. Y'all don't need to write in about it no > more. > > > >> Alice: >> >>> For what it's worth, I've seen the spelling "diabetis" fairly >>> regularly from certain posters on the usenet diabetes support groups. >>> I've never understood where this came from, as it's certainly not >>> something I've noticed here in the northeast. One particular poster, >>> who used to use this spelling *a lot* is a good enough writer that >>> the "mis-spelling" really stood out. She's lived in Alaska most of >>> her adult life, but, if I remember the autobiographical details she's >>> posted correctly, she grew up in Michigan (I'm not sure where). >> >> This gets weirder. I've never seen the *spelling* "diabetis", just the >> pronunciation. But then, I may not be reading the right kind of literature. >> Anne G > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Department of Linguistics and Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > preston at pilot.msu.edu > Office: (517)353-0740 > Fax: (517)432-2736 > From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Dec 12 20:33:06 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:33:06 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I take back some of my stress-rlaated vowel-quality ramblings. I was thinking only of the schwa versus [I] pronunciation, but some people have pointed out (and I have certainly heard) an [i] pronunciation but with a following voiced consonant. I wonder now (and this is surely lexical) if you can get [i] without a voiced consonant? - [-is]. I think I have never heard it. dInIs >The discussion is proceeding as if the variant under discussion is just a >vowel, but as DInIs points out, stress also appears to be a variable here. >It appears that in American English we tend not to have the lax vowel if >that syllable has secondary/tertiary stress. Or maybe it's strong syllable >versus weak syllable. Anyway, this is probably a lexical rather than >phonological thing. Are there any other disease names that manifest this >variation? I can't think of any. >DMLance > >> From: "Dennis R. Preston" >> Reply-To: American Dialect Society >> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:14:12 -0500 >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: diabetes >> >> Ya'll should remember that some schwa-like sounds are more [I] like >> in southern speech. If one does not give some stress to the last >> syllable (permitting [i]), it's going to end up as a schwa; if that >> schwa is more /I/ like, some of y'all northerners might have been >> fooled. That is, it may simply be vowel reduction with regional >> quality variation. >> >> On the other hand, that variation may have led to "real" /I/ >> pronunciations (although that would seem to require some degree of >> stress). (I just noticed I called the phoneme rather than the phone >> "real." Heaven help me!) >> >> Of course, "medical -itis" (the spelling only) may also play a role here. >> >> dInIs (who always notes the more [I]-like pronunciation of his last >> syllable, even when unstressed, the farther south he goes) >> >> PS: I'm just jerkin y'all around by putting the apostrophe in >> different places in ya'll. Y'all don't need to write in about it no >> more. >> >> >> >>> Alice: >>> >>>> For what it's worth, I've seen the spelling "diabetis" fairly >>>> regularly from certain posters on the usenet diabetes support groups. >>>> I've never understood where this came from, as it's certainly not >>>> something I've noticed here in the northeast. One particular poster, >>>> who used to use this spelling *a lot* is a good enough writer that >>>> the "mis-spelling" really stood out. She's lived in Alaska most of >>>> her adult life, but, if I remember the autobiographical details she's >>>> posted correctly, she grew up in Michigan (I'm not sure where). >>> >>> This gets weirder. I've never seen the *spelling* "diabetis", just the >>> pronunciation. But then, I may not be reading the right kind of >>>literature. >>> Anne G >> >> -- >> Dennis R. Preston >> Department of Linguistics and Languages >> Michigan State University >> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA >> preston at pilot.msu.edu >> Office: (517)353-0740 >> Fax: (517)432-2736 >> -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Wed Dec 12 20:52:48 2001 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:52:48 EST Subject: diabetes Message-ID: Seems like some other Greek words would have followed suit if were a phonological thing--Archimedes-- my brain is mush from too many student papers, someone else supply the rest. Dale Coye The College of NJ From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Dec 12 21:01:33 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:01:33 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Well, I take back some of my stress-rlaated vowel-quality ramblings. >I was thinking only of the schwa versus [I] pronunciation, but some >people have pointed out (and I have certainly heard) an [i] >pronunciation but with a following voiced consonant. I wonder now >(and this is surely lexical) if you can get [i] without a voiced >consonant? - [-is]. I think I have never heard it. Well, this New Yorker certainly has /i/ (of roughly the same quality) in both the ultimate and penultimate syllables of "diabetes". It's (roughly) "beady" with an /s/ on the end. My doctor, who certainly *sounds* like a native of the New Haven area, pronounces it the same way. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 12 21:20:31 2001 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:20:31 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Donald M Lance wrote: > The discussion is proceeding as if the variant under discussion is just a > vowel, but as DInIs points out, stress also appears to be a variable here. I haven't read everyone's replies yet, but the variation is not just in the vowel, but also in the voicing on the final sibilant: voiceless -tis vs. voiced -teez. I agree that -itis words may be playing a role and, as you say further below, that it's probably lexical. > It appears that in American English we tend not to have the lax vowel if > that syllable has secondary/tertiary stress. Or maybe it's strong syllable > versus weak syllable. Anyway, this is probably a lexical rather than > phonological thing. Are there any other disease names that manifest this > variation? I can't think of any. > DMLance > > > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:14:12 -0500 > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: diabetes > > > > Ya'll should remember that some schwa-like sounds are more [I] like > > in southern speech. If one does not give some stress to the last > > syllable (permitting [i]), it's going to end up as a schwa; if that > > schwa is more /I/ like, some of y'all northerners might have been > > fooled. That is, it may simply be vowel reduction with regional > > quality variation. > > > > On the other hand, that variation may have led to "real" /I/ > > pronunciations (although that would seem to require some degree of > > stress). (I just noticed I called the phoneme rather than the phone > > "real." Heaven help me!) > > > > Of course, "medical -itis" (the spelling only) may also play a role here. > > > > dInIs (who always notes the more [I]-like pronunciation of his last > > syllable, even when unstressed, the farther south he goes) > > > > PS: I'm just jerkin y'all around by putting the apostrophe in > > different places in ya'll. Y'all don't need to write in about it no > > more. > > > > > > > >> Alice: > >> > >>> For what it's worth, I've seen the spelling "diabetis" fairly > >>> regularly from certain posters on the usenet diabetes support groups. > >>> I've never understood where this came from, as it's certainly not > >>> something I've noticed here in the northeast. One particular poster, > >>> who used to use this spelling *a lot* is a good enough writer that > >>> the "mis-spelling" really stood out. She's lived in Alaska most of > >>> her adult life, but, if I remember the autobiographical details she's > >>> posted correctly, she grew up in Michigan (I'm not sure where). > >> > >> This gets weirder. I've never seen the *spelling* "diabetis", just the > >> pronunciation. But then, I may not be reading the right kind of literature. > >> Anne G > > > > -- > > Dennis R. Preston > > Department of Linguistics and Languages > > Michigan State University > > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > > preston at pilot.msu.edu > > Office: (517)353-0740 > > Fax: (517)432-2736 > > > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Dec 12 21:33:00 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:33:00 -0800 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been assuming that messages citing spelled -tes vs. -tis variations are referring to the pronunciations [iz] and [@s], respectively, rather than [@s] and [Is]. I would expect an [@s] vs. [Is] variation to be north/south regional, but the question seems to be whether it's regional to use [iz] on the one hand or [@s]~[Is] on the other. As an additional bit of evidence that something other than regionality is at work in the [iz] variant, I recall the first time I ever saw the word written, sometime during my childhood. I was surprised to discover that I had been "mispronouncing" it all this time (as something analogous to the many -itis diseases), so, figuring that I must simply have misunderstood the word when grownups said it, I adopted the spelling pronunciation with [iz]. (I might even say, with the greatest of [iz]--though I'm not sure I use it consistently when I'm not thinking about it.) Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, December 12, 2001 1:14 PM -0500 "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > Ya'll should remember that some schwa-like sounds are more [I] like > in southern speech. If one does not give some stress to the last > syllable (permitting [i]), it's going to end up as a schwa; if that > schwa is more /I/ like, some of y'all northerners might have been > fooled. That is, it may simply be vowel reduction with regional > quality variation. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From douglas at NB.NET Wed Dec 12 21:40:07 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:40:07 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The full name of the disease usually called "diabetes" is of course "diabetes mellitus". We "know" instinctively or otherwise that the inflectional suffixes must match -- e.g., Circus Maximus, Canis familiaris, anorexia nervosa, Costa Mesa, labia majora, hocus pocus. So it must be "diabetus mellitus". Maybe a hypercorrection of sorts. -- Doug Wilson From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Dec 12 21:54:43 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:54:43 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011212162926.024fb190@nb.net> Message-ID: Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >The full name of the disease usually called "diabetes" is of course >"diabetes mellitus". We "know" instinctively or otherwise that the >inflectional suffixes must match -- e.g., Circus Maximus, Canis familiaris, >anorexia nervosa, Costa Mesa, labia majora, hocus pocus. So it must be >"diabetus mellitus". Maybe a hypercorrection of sorts. > Before I read to the end of the above, I thought you were talking about hypercorrection in the penult, and assuming something like "diab-/ai/-tis mell-/ai/-tus". I was fully prepared to scream out load. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Dec 12 22:20:56 2001 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:20:56 -0600 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, it gets curiouser and curiouser. -- Doug Wilson wrote: >The full name of the disease usually called "diabetes" is of course >"diabetes mellitus". We "know" instinctively or otherwise that the >inflectional suffixes must match -- e.g., Circus Maximus, Canis familiaris, >anorexia nervosa, Costa Mesa, labia majora, hocus pocus. So it must be >"diabetus mellitus". Maybe a hypercorrection of sorts. So the voiceless -s in -itis also is lexical. The schwa pronunciation doesn't have to derive from hypercorrection, because (as others have mentioned) -i- spellings in unstressed syllables may range (perhaps regionally) from [I] to barred-i to schwa, as in Missouri. Of course, in 20th century American English, the open-syllable -i/-y/-ie is the tense /i/. Since these variants are "normal," then spelling becomes an issue for those who "didn't have phonics." [n.b.: quotation marks = irony here] If hypercorrection comes into play, it would be in references to one diabetee. DMLance > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:33:06 -0500 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: diabetes > > Well, I take back some of my stress-rlaated vowel-quality ramblings. > I was thinking only of the schwa versus [I] pronunciation, but some > people have pointed out (and I have certainly heard) an [i] > pronunciation but with a following voiced consonant. I wonder now > (and this is surely lexical) if you can get [i] without a voiced > consonant? - [-is]. I think I have never heard it. > > dInIs > >> The discussion is proceeding as if the variant under discussion is just a >> vowel, but as DInIs points out, stress also appears to be a variable here. >> It appears that in American English we tend not to have the lax vowel if >> that syllable has secondary/tertiary stress. Or maybe it's strong syllable >> versus weak syllable. Anyway, this is probably a lexical rather than >> phonological thing. Are there any other disease names that manifest this >> variation? I can't think of any. >> DMLance >> >>> From: "Dennis R. Preston" >>> Reply-To: American Dialect Society >>> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:14:12 -0500 >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: diabetes >>> >>> Ya'll should remember that some schwa-like sounds are more [I] like >>> in southern speech. If one does not give some stress to the last >>> syllable (permitting [i]), it's going to end up as a schwa; if that >>> schwa is more /I/ like, some of y'all northerners might have been >>> fooled. That is, it may simply be vowel reduction with regional >>> quality variation. >>> >>> On the other hand, that variation may have led to "real" /I/ >>> pronunciations (although that would seem to require some degree of >>> stress). (I just noticed I called the phoneme rather than the phone >>> "real." Heaven help me!) >>> >>> Of course, "medical -itis" (the spelling only) may also play a role here. >>> >>> dInIs (who always notes the more [I]-like pronunciation of his last >>> syllable, even when unstressed, the farther south he goes) >>> >>> PS: I'm just jerkin y'all around by putting the apostrophe in >>> different places in ya'll. Y'all don't need to write in about it no >>> more. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Alice: >>>> >>>>> For what it's worth, I've seen the spelling "diabetis" fairly >>>>> regularly from certain posters on the usenet diabetes support groups. >>>>> I've never understood where this came from, as it's certainly not >>>>> something I've noticed here in the northeast. One particular poster, >>>>> who used to use this spelling *a lot* is a good enough writer that >>>>> the "mis-spelling" really stood out. She's lived in Alaska most of >>>>> her adult life, but, if I remember the autobiographical details she's >>>>> posted correctly, she grew up in Michigan (I'm not sure where). >>>> >>>> This gets weirder. I've never seen the *spelling* "diabetis", just the >>>> pronunciation. But then, I may not be reading the right kind of >>>> literature. >>>> Anne G >>> >>> -- >>> Dennis R. Preston >>> Department of Linguistics and Languages >>> Michigan State University >>> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA >>> preston at pilot.msu.edu >>> Office: (517)353-0740 >>> Fax: (517)432-2736 >>> > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Department of Linguistics and Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > preston at pilot.msu.edu > Office: (517)353-0740 > Fax: (517)432-2736 > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Dec 12 22:44:32 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:44:32 -0800 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This suggests all sorts of possibilities for the enrichment of our impoverished language. If lawyers and judges can talk about the "de-fen-DANT," why shouldn't doctors start referring to a patient suffering from this disease* as the "diabee-TEE"? PMc. * (I.e., hypercorrection) :) --On Wednesday, December 12, 2001 4:20 PM -0600 Donald M Lance wrote: > If hypercorrection comes into play, it would be in references to one > diabetee. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Wed Dec 12 22:44:30 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:44:30 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011212131926.009fc300@pop.mizzou.edu> Message-ID: This Minnesotan always says "-tis" [Is] too. On "arthuritis," very common; the epenthetic vowel is not just Southern. How about "athelete/atheletic"? At 01:21 PM 12/12/01 -0600, you wrote: >Growing up in Chicago, IL and Omaha, NE, I heard "-tis" (as well as >"-teez"), although "-tis" was always my own preferred >pronunciation. "Arthur-itis" is new to me, however. > >Jennifer Beckman _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Wed Dec 12 22:57:54 2001 From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:57:54 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Phrase inquiry: "Spanish news" Message-ID: >DARE doesn't have anything on "Spanish news." Can anyone help? >I have received a query concerning a phrase in Tennessee Williams' play "Cat >on a Hot Tin Roof". About six pages into Act One, Maggie/Margaret has a >line which reads "But I have a piece of Spanish news for Gooper." A faculty >member has asked about the origin and meaning of that phrase "Spanish news". >Thus far all our inquiries have failed. Is this a phrase which has come to >the attention of DARE? Can you make any recommendations on how to pursue >the inquiry further? I would be grateful for any assistance which you could >provide. > >John S. Walz >Middle/Upper School Librarian >Kent Place School >Summit, NJ 07901 > >walzj at kentplace.org >908-273-0900 ext. 295 From dagny at EXECPC.COM Wed Dec 12 22:36:05 2001 From: dagny at EXECPC.COM (Amy L. Hayden) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:36:05 -0600 Subject: diabetes Message-ID: > >On the newscasts here in the Chicago area, it's almost always pronounced -tis, > > As in rhymes with "fleece"? No, as in rhymes with "this". Amy From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Dec 13 01:19:21 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:19:21 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <3C17DBD5.B526C553@execpc.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Amy L. Hayden wrote: >> >On the newscasts here in the Chicago area, it's almost always pronounced -tis, >> >> As in rhymes with "fleece"? > >No, as in rhymes with "this". > Oh, as is -/tIs/. Thanks. Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 13 01:34:27 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:34:27 EST Subject: Smart Border Message-ID: SMART BORDER--The U.S. and Canada signed a "smart border" agreement today. Another "smart" to go with smart cards, smart clothes...I'm smarting. DIRTY BOMB--I've been seeing this a lot. FRATRICIDE--When friendly fire occurs. CNN did a story on this a few days ago. MUJAHIDEEN--William Safire did this last Sunday. What does everything think about the hit in MOA-Mich. books? Search by "mujah*" for the suffix. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 13 02:08:37 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:08:37 EST Subject: TEXAS AND MEXICO (1888); Ranch (1836) Message-ID: OFF TOPIC: A few days ago, I didn't get a dialtone. So I call up MCI Service, and it's closed between 10 pm-7 am (Joey's gotta sleep). So I call back then, and they say unplug everything, wait 20 minutes, and plug everything in again. So I do that, and nothing happens. So I call again, and they check it out, and it's MCI's problem after all, and I'm promised phone service by 8 pm Wednesday. But I don't have phone service, so I gotta pay this internet cafe at 57th and 2nd... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- JOURNALISTS LETTERS DESCRIPTIVE OF TEXAS AND MEXICO. EDITED BY ROBERT H. THOMAS FARMERS' FRIEND PRINT Mechanicburg, Pa. 1888 (Interesting for chili-con-carne--ed.) Pg. 7 (INTRODUCTION): There will also be contradictiory opinions, for each pen tells its own story as it saw with its own eyes. One observer will insist that in making _Tortillas_ the native spits upon his hands, another will distinctly refute this. Pg. 18: The _chile-non-carne_, or meat with pepper, was like a section of sheol, served up _a la_ Dante. The rest of the supper was of similar character. When the visitors finished the novel repast they drank a dozen quarts of water to cool their parched tongues. Everything the Mexican eats is peppery. He is not satisfied with ordinary condiments, but demands red pepper galore. The _tamallas_ are not as bad as the other food. They are made out of what nobody knows done up in a cornshuck. The _tortilla_ is a variety of griddle-cake, composed of ashes and a little meal. Pg. 39: Tortilla is a kind of bread, made of beaten or ground corn soaked in alkaline water, well seasoned with pepper, baked. In making them the women mould the dough into cakes, and to prevent its sticking, _spit on their_ hands. Pulque is a beer manufactured from the pulque or maguey plant. Pg. 55: Both speaker pronounced "ideas" "ide-ars," reminding us of Col. Moore's insistance on the pronunciation of "yeast" as "yest" in the Baker trial. Pg. 56: The centres of the plaza or public squares are well taken up at night by Mexican venders of chiliconcarne and tamales. Chili-con-carne is made of bits of boiled beef and red pepper seemingly in equal proportions, and tamales consist of corn meal wrapped in husks and boiled. Neither is a favorite dish with us, but the Texans and Mexicans, who want something hot, consider the stands great conveniences, and in the glare of the smoking torches patronize them all night long. The coming of the dawn is the signal for the chiliconcarne merchants to reload their wagons and pull out for home, to repeat the program next night and so on. Pg. 75: There (sic) of the principal articles of food are tortillas, tamales and chili-con-carne. These, with fruits, form the staple diet of the masses. The tortilla is made from corn which has been soaked in lime water until it is softened and freed from the husks. The corn is then mashed quite fine on a kind of stone tray, by means of a smaller stone, pressed into a thin cake with the hands, and baked on an open pottery vessel over a small charcoal fire. The chili-con-carne is meat of various kinds chopped up into hash, mixed with almost or quite an equal quantity of red pepper, and stewed together. For the tamales, corn is mashed up the same as for tortillas, a roll of it is made about one inch in diameter, with a small quantity of meat and pepper through the center; the whole is then wrapped in a shuck and boiled for several hours. A hungry man can make a very satisfying meal on tamales. We have eaten lots of things in United States hotels and boarding houses not nearly so palatable. Pg. 91: History does not relate what became of the intelligent "pee-wee" bird, but I dare say the Mexicans made "chilli-con-carne" of it before they followed the eagle.... Pg. 149: MEXICAN VOCABULARY. Mexico--Me-yhi-co. (...) Tortilla--Tor-tee-yo,...Small cake made of corn. (...) Mesdale (sic)--Mes-cal-e,...Mexican whisky. Pulque--Pool-kah,...Drink. Tamales--Ta-mah-lees,...Mexican dish. Chili-con-carne--Chil-i-co-car-ne,...Pepper with meat. (...) Friyoles--Fri-yo-las,...Red beans. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- RANCH (1836) OED's 1831 "ranch" citation states that it's probably closer to another sense of the word. If so, then this is the earliest "ranch" of this meaning. THREE YEARS IN TEXAS by DR. JOSEPH E. FIELD Greenfield, Mass. JUSTIN JONES 1836 Pg. 25: A first, second and third messenger was sent to the Mission, without bringing any information from our friends, except the last, who brought the news of their disaster, having obtained it at a _ranch_, (a Mexican farm.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 13 06:24:53 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:24:53 EST Subject: 173 Pre-Prohibition Cocktails (1917; 2001) Message-ID: 173 PRE-PROHIBITION COCKTAILS By Tom Bullock, 1917 Howling at the Moon Press (www.howling1.com), Jenks, OK 112 pages, paperback, $14.95 2001 I discussed this book with Andy Smith at lunch. The 1917 cocktails are here, but much 2001 drink and photo padding is added. It's very difficult to tell one from the other, and certainly impossible to cite a 1917 page number (from Bullock's THE IDEAL BARTENDER). "Behind Tom Bullock's Bar," the new padding on pages 83-103, explains (incompletely and often incorrectly) such things as "cocktail." The drink names offer no real surprises. A "Black Cow" (pg. 27) of cream and sarsaparilla is perhaps the only useful item. I was looking for "Mojito" and "Cuba Libre" in preparation for my Cuba trip, but they're not here. Thanks to Jesse Sheidlower, I paid a ridiculous amount for POKER, SMOKE AND OTHER THINGS (1907), and I'll see if they're in that book. "Cuba Libre" from Basil Woon's WHEN IT'S _COCKTAIL TIME_ IN CUBA (1928) is posted in the archives. There's also this "Cuba libra," from TRAVEL magazine, March 1937, pg. 32, col. 3 (I was looking for Key Lime Pie in this Key West article): If you speak nicely to them, and perhaps suggest a _Cuba libra_ (Key West's most popular drink), they (Pg. 33, Col. 1--ed.) will entertain you by talking about their city or by dancing. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 13 07:05:16 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:05:16 EST Subject: Das Fleischerhandwerf (1842); Handling the Hog (1910) Message-ID: Two meaty gems now hidden away in the NYPL annex. -------------------------------------------------------- DAS FLEISCHERHANDWERF by G. P. F. Thon Weimar, 1842 This is an interesting book that Gerald Cohen might want to inter-library loan and translate for COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY. I find the old German typeface difficult to read. Pg. 132: _Bratwurste nach englischer Ranier._ (OED has an incredibly late 1911 for "Bratwurst"--ed.) _Frankfurter geraucherte Bratwurste._ Pg. 133: _Wiener Wurstchen._ -------------------------------------------------------- HANDLING THE HOG FROM START OT FINISH by "Westerner" (John P. Donovan--ed.) Butchers Advocate Co., NY 1910 (Meatpacking lingo is put in quotation marks throughout the book--ed.) Pg. 3: ...not to allow his pickle in the vat to get "ropy" or sour".... Pg. 13: The intestines which are left are known as the "black guts" and are cut by machine, or hashed, and washed thoroughly. Pg. 23: Some of the uninitiated may wonder what "fresh hogs" are. They are hogs just driven from the "yards" and killed right away without resting, and supposed by many to be in such a feverish condition that the meat would not come out of cure "sweet." Pg. 28: The shoulder may be made into a cala, picnic, a Boston shoulder, a New York shoulder, a square or three-rib shoulder or a regular shoulder. Pg. 31: "English short rib"..."Cumberland middles." Pg. 33: The hams, when chopped off, or, in some cases, sawed off, are dropped from the trimming table on the cutting floor by means of chutes that are known as the "green meat chutes"; in close proximity to these chutes is the "green meat" inspector, who handles every ham and inspects it, and then throws it into the box to which it belongs. Pg. 53: There is an old adage, the origin of which I do not know, "Where there's muck, there's luck," and certainly a great number of packinghouse (Pg. 54--ed.) men seem to place implicit belief in it, and in so doing have brought opprobrium on an industry, that can be carried out as cleanly as any line of business in comparison. Pg. 98: ...two lifts being made in this case, the first from the floor to the top of an old tierce known as a "dolly" and then from there to the pile on top of the second row. (See ADS-L archives for "dolly," also on page 102--ed.) From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Dec 13 13:31:08 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:31:08 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bethany, It was this which led me to speculate that people were simply (sic) hearing the [I]-like (principally) southern version of schwa in such environments. I discovered later that people were also interested in an [i] pronunciation and that the [I]-like ones also extended beyond southern areas (although never, so far as has been established in the data I have seen on the list so far, in a completely unstressed position, as would be the case in southern speech). dInIs >On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Amy L. Hayden wrote: > >>> >On the newscasts here in the Chicago area, it's almost always >pronounced -tis, >>> >>> As in rhymes with "fleece"? >> >>No, as in rhymes with "this". >> >Oh, as is -/tIs/. Thanks. > >Bethany -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM Thu Dec 13 15:12:40 2001 From: Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:12:40 -0500 Subject: chili-non-carne? Message-ID: The indefatigable and iron-virtual-stomached Barry quotes: >>> JOURNALISTS LETTERS DESCRIPTIVE OF TEXAS AND MEXICO. EDITED BY ROBERT H. THOMAS FARMERS' FRIEND PRINT Mechanicburg, Pa. 1888 [...] Pg. 18: The _chile-non-carne_, or meat with pepper, <<< Hermes help us! I already wince at things like "chili con carne with [or without] meat"... Or is that "non" a typo for "con", Barry? And while we're at it, ... oh, never mind. I was about to comment on the multiple spellings, till I realized that each was by a different author (Introduction). Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist [but for how long?] Dragon Systems, a Lernout & HauspieXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ScanSoft company speech recognition 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Dec 13 15:46:38 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:46:38 EST Subject: chili-non-carne? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/13/2001 10:24:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM writes: > JOURNALISTS LETTERS > DESCRIPTIVE OF > TEXAS AND MEXICO. > EDITED BY > ROBERT H. THOMAS > FARMERS' FRIEND PRINT > Mechanicburg, Pa. > 1888 > > [...] > > Pg. 18: > The _chile-non-carne_, or meat with pepper, > <<< > > Hermes help us! I already wince at things like "chili con carne with [or > without] meat"... Or is that "non" a typo for "con", Barry? The Atlantic City Press commented on the fact that the menu at a local prison included chile "con" carne... What interests me in Barry's cite is not the obvious typo of "non" for "con" but the fact that an 1888 book would spell the name of the dish as "chile" rather than "chili". (In Spanish "chili" and "chile" are NOT homonyms. The first has a final vowel more or less as in English "chilly" but the second has a final vowel resembling that of English "Sunday/sundae".) I have found two 19th century sources that refer to the South American country as "Chili" (and none that use "Chile"). Does anyone have enough data to say whether these were the usual spellings in 19th Century American English or were happenstance? - Jim Landau P.S. "Cuba libra" is part of the Zodiac as seen from Havana? I had thought that the name "Cube Libre" for the drink had gone out of fashion when Castro took over in Cuba, but an Ecuadorian coworker confirms that Barry Popik is correct that "Cuba Libre" (both the drink and that name for it) are quite popular in Ecuador. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Dec 13 16:25:27 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:25:27 -0800 Subject: Das Fleischerhandwerf (1842); Handling the Hog (1910) In-Reply-To: <26.1ff2f92f.2949ad2d@aol.com> Message-ID: If he wants to request it, he should use the title Das Fleischerhandwerk. (The k in Fraktur looks like the f in other fonts.) PMc --On Thursday, December 13, 2001 2:05 AM +0000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > DAS FLEISCHERHANDWERF > by G. P. F. Thon > Weimar, 1842 > > This is an interesting book that Gerald Cohen might want to > inter-library loan and translate for COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY. I find > the old German typeface difficult to read. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Thu Dec 13 16:49:44 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:49:44 -0500 Subject: diabetes Message-ID: dInIs wrote: > the [I]-like ones also extended beyond southern areas< I've lived in Southern areas most of my life and the /day@'bi,diz/ pron. is what I would consider normal. yes, there is a secondary stress on the last syllable to support that vowel. I think I would consider a /-dIs/ pron. to be new/fancy/from somewhere else. Ellen Ellen Johnson Assistant Professor of Linguistics Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing Berry College, Box 350 Mt. Berry, GA 30149 706-368-5638 http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ ejohnson at berry.edu From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Dec 13 17:02:37 2001 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:02:37 -0500 Subject: chili-non-carne? In-Reply-To: <12d.93310fc.294a275e@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, James A. Landau wrote: > I have found two 19th century sources that refer to the South American > country as "Chili" (and none that use "Chile"). Does anyone have enough data > to say whether these were the usual spellings in 19th Century American > English or were happenstance? > If it was, it was true in other non-Spanish languages also; cp. Heinrich von Kleist's novella "Das Erdbeben in Chili" ("The Earthquake in Chile"), early 19th-century. Ben From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 13 17:18:20 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:18:20 EST Subject: chili-non-carne? Message-ID: OFF TOPIC: My phone service is back! Lordy! CHILI-NON-CARNE: That's how it was. I didn't know if it was a typo or a joke...It was also "Cuba libra," which makes it easy to order a drink and ask "What's your sign?" On page 36 of JOURNALISTS' LETTERS (1888) was this poem, which Fred Shapiro has probably dated: "If you ever go to France, Be sure to learn the Lingo; If you do like me, You'll repent, by jingo." -------------------------------------------------------- ST. LOUIS' ISLE, OR TEXIANA by Charles Hooton Simmonds and Ward, London 1847 Pg. 129: *This is the usual method of drinking in Texas and the Southern States,--spirits first and water afterward. Pg. 24: "acclimated"* *This word is not in the dictionaries; but as it is both useful and expressive of its meaning (_accustomed to the climate_), I have not hesitated to adopt it. (OED has one earlier cite--ed.) Pg. 166: The phrase "people of colour" is peculiarly apt in this place (New Orleans--ed.), as a perfect black, an unmitigated "nigger," is somewhat of a rarity. Pg. 170: ..."chicken fixen"... From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Dec 13 18:43:59 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:43:59 -0800 Subject: Das Fleischerhandwerf (1842); Handling the Hog (1910) In-Reply-To: <26.1ff2f92f.2949ad2d@aol.com> Message-ID: > > Pg. 132: > _Bratwurste nach englischer Ranier._ > (OED has an incredibly late 1911 for "Bratwurst"--ed.) Most likely "englischer Manier". Equals "Bangers"? allen maberry at u.washington.edu From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 13 19:44:54 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:44:54 -0600 Subject: diabetes Message-ID: >Seems like some other Greek words would have followed suit if were a >phonological thing--Archimedes-- my brain is mush from too many student >papers, someone else supply the rest. > >Dale Coye As with Diomedes, or with the plurals of words like 'pericope'. The medical term diabetes seems to be directly inherited from Greek via Latin (meaning 'siphon', 'straddle'). The ancient physicians certainly knew of it. The 'bee-tease' pronunciation would seem to be the learned one. Has anyone mentioned yet that 'mellitus' does not follow the -itis pattern, but rather, stresses the first syllable and rhymes the last with 'bus'. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 13 20:23:30 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:23:30 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>Seems like some other Greek words would have followed suit if were a >>phonological thing--Archimedes-- my brain is mush from too many student >>papers, someone else supply the rest. >> >>Dale Coye > >As with Diomedes, or with the plurals of words like 'pericope'. > >The medical term diabetes seems to be directly inherited from Greek via >Latin (meaning 'siphon', 'straddle'). The ancient physicians certainly knew >of it. The 'bee-tease' pronunciation would seem to be the learned one. > >Has anyone mentioned yet that 'mellitus' does not follow the -itis pattern, >but rather, stresses the first syllable and rhymes the last with 'bus'. I think that's the way it 'should' be: /'mEl at tVs/ or so. Actually it is sometimes pronounced /mE'lait at s/ as if it were "-itis". Same with "tinnitus" (ringing in the ears). "Pruritus" (itch) seems like it SHOULD be "-itis", and thus it is USUALLY pronounced "prU'rait at s/, even by MD's (I think). Other things which don't seem to be 'diseases' ("habitus", "crepitus", "coitus", etc.) have first-syllable stress. It depends on how many MD's and others 'mispronounce' each one over the course of time, I suppose. Our "health care professionals" are of course not generally "classical scholars". (Like some other blue-collar types, I ignore the "distinction" between unstressed /I/ and /@/ [schwa] usually.) -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 13 21:19:20 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:19:20 EST Subject: "Romaine salad" at Tia Juana (1935); OUP Message-ID: "ROMAINE SALAD" AT TIA JUANA From SUNSET magazine, September 1935, pg. 23, col. 1: _SAN DIEGO SPECIAL GARLIC BREAD_ (Illustrated on this page) I know that there are many types of so-called garlic breads, but this one is better tasting than any of the others, in my estimation. It is the kind they always serve with romaine salad at a certain cafe in Tia Juana (Caesar's? With Caesar Salad?--ed). It is delicious with any spaghetti dish or meat casserole and a green salad. Take a loaf of French bread, split it length-wise, and cut each half in big pieces, being careful not to cut all the way through the outer crust. Spread the cut surface with softened butter, and be sure to spread butter between the slices, too. Peel several cloves of garlic, and place one whole clove of it between each two slices. Sprinkle the loaf lightly with salt, then very generously with grated Parmesan cheese, and lastly sprinkle it generously with paprika. Place in a hot oven for 15 minutes (in a covered dish if you don't like it crisp). After removing from the oven, take out the garlic before serving.--Mrs. L. M. M., San DIego, California. -------------------------------------------------------- OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD (2004) No drink. Maybe I can sneak in an "ice cream soda" with the ice cream. Also, the date is now 2004 instead of 2003. The press misreported the major contract signings on Wednesday, so I'll get it straight: Jason Giambi (NY YANKEES; to play a kid's game) --119 million dollars. Katie Coric (NBC-tv; for breakfast chat) --65 million dollars. Barry Popik (OUP; trace the origins of every food on the face of the earth) --free lunch. From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Thu Dec 13 22:42:48 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:42:48 -0500 Subject: idioms Message-ID: I couldn't resist passing this along. if Jesse could write a whole book about the phrses "The F-Word" appears in, maybe one of us will take up this area of the vocabulary next. Ellen WHO IS JACK SCHITT??? The lineage is finally revealed. Many people are at a loss for a response when someone says "You don't know Jack Schitt!" Read on and you'll be able to handle the situation intelligently. Jack is the only son of Awe Schitt and O. Schitt. Awe Schitt, the fertilizer magnate, married O. Schitt, a partner of Kneedeep & Schitt, Inc. Jack Schitt married Noe Schitt, and the deeply religious couple begat 6 children: Holie Schitt, Fulla Schitt, Giva Schitt, Bull Schitt, and the twins, Deap Schitt and Dip Schitt. Against her parents' wishes, Deap Schitt married Dumb Schitt, a high school dropout. After 15 years of marriage, Jack & Noe Schitt divorced. Noe Schitt later married a Mr. Sherlock, and out of devotion to her children, decided to hyphenate her last name, and became Noe Schitt-Sherlock. Dip Schitt married a woman named Loda Dung, who became Loda Schitt. The couple produced a nervous son, Chicken Schitt. Fulla Schitt and Giva Schitt, inseparable throughout childhood subsequently married the Happens brothers. The local newspaper announced the Schitt-Happens wedding, which was quite an event. The Schitt-Happens children were Dawg, Byrd, and Hoarse. Bull Schitt, the prodigal son, left home to tour the world. He returned from his travels with his Italian bride, Piza Schitt. So, NOW if someone says "You don't know Jack Schitt," you can beg to differ. You not only know Jack Schitt, but the entire Schitt list! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 14 00:31:35 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:31:35 EST Subject: John Mosetta (1937); Ranch Home (1938) Message-ID: JOHN MOSETTA I had previously posted a "Johnny Marazetti" recipe from the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 22 January 1939, as well as other variations on the name of this Ohio dish. From SUNSET magazine, June 1937, pg. 49, col. 2: _Calling_ _John Mosetta_ Mrs. J. S. Wells of Hermosa Beach, Calif., sings the praise of John Mosetta, which is the strange name of a grand dish to serve to a big crowd. It goes especially well after a swim in the surf. To make it you will need: 2 pounds of pork steak (best quality) 10 or 12 large onions (sliced) 2 cloves of garlic (Whew!) 2 packages of inch-wide noodles 1 No. 2 1/2 can of solid pack tomatoes 1 pound of American cheese To make the dish, dice the pork into small cubes and fry in a hot skillet until a golden brown. Add the sliced onions and continue until they, too, are a rich color. While the pork is sizzling away have the noodles boiling on the stove and the tomatoes running (with your help) through a colander. When the noodles are done and drained add them and the tomatoes to the pork and onions. Now add the garlic chopped and part of the cheese (cut into bits) and put all into a large baking pan. Cover with grated cheese and bake until brown. This may be made in advance and heated through just before using. In fact it's better made the day before. With plenty of John Mosetta, French bread, and hot coffee or dry wine, you've a hearty party. -------------------------------------------------------- RANCH HOME Keep looking at that OED "ranch" entry. It has "ranch" home from a crime novel in 1960. From SUNSET magazine, April 1938, pg. 48, col. 1: _Modern_ _Ranch Homes_ _in the Old Tradition_ BECAUSE THIS IS a ranch issue, _Sunset_ this month presents plans and pictures of 3 Western ranch homes. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 14 01:55:01 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:55:01 EST Subject: Cuban Sandwiches (1937) Message-ID: This continues several postings on "Cuban sandwiches." Other sources (such as DARE) basically have Tampa, from the 1950s. Cuban sandwiches, Cuba Libre, Daiquiri, Mojito...one trip to Cuba and I have to do everything. From a Key West story called "South From Miami" by Nina Wilcox Putnam, COLLIER'S, 18 December 1937: Pg. 18, col. 4: "Turtle Steak, 50 cents" and "Try our homemade lime pies." Next was "Conch Chowder" and "Stone-Crab Salad." Pg. 39, col. 2: There is a restaurant on Duval Street called Delmonico's which looks about as much like Delmonico's as I look like Shirley Temple. (...) And oh, my gosh, the chicken (Col. 3--ed.) soup with noodles! Stone-crab cocktail, fish a la minuta! If, however, you are a light snacker, let me recommend Cuban sandwiches. There is a little hole-in-the-wall across from the Cuban Club which makes them. These sandwiches are hardly a snack, they are more like a career. Tell the boy to use Cuban bread and Cuban ham. Then watch him make them. You never saw such an artistic performance of sandwich-making. From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Dec 14 03:24:31 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:24:31 -0500 Subject: idioms In-Reply-To: <04075613166AF949913A8094A388272A119ED0@FSMAIL.AD.Berry.edu> Message-ID: > I couldn't resist passing this along. if Jesse could write a whole book > about the phrses "The F-Word" appears in, maybe one of us will take up > this area of the vocabulary next. It's just an issue of time! We could do an S-word book and it would be twice the size of The F-Word! Jesse From douglas at NB.NET Fri Dec 14 14:19:19 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:19:19 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Phrase inquiry: "Spanish news" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011212165432.02293660@students.wisc.edu> Message-ID: I can't find anything. Maybe some commentator on Tennessee Williams has elucidated this. I found two other instances on the Web which are exactly analogous, possibly copied from Williams' usage: they add nothing. I am reduced to rank speculation. What word could replace "Spanish" here and make sense? I have three answers, giving three interpretations of "Spanish". Take your pick, if you can't find anything better. (1) "Spanish" = "hot" (climate, spicy food, passionate temperament, ...). (2) "Spanish" = "blunt" -- from equating the old slang nouns "spanish" and "blunt", both meaning "money" in the same milieu (I think). (3) [my favorite] "Spanish" = "spick-and-span" = "fresh", merely an intensifier for "new(s)" ... "spick-and-span" of course says "Spanish" twice, once as vulgar slang and once as an abbreviation. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 14 01:59:26 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:59:26 +0800 Subject: Fwd: Phrase inquiry: "Spanish news" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011214090743.02500200@nb.net> Message-ID: At 9:19 AM -0500 12/14/01, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >I can't find anything. Maybe some commentator on Tennessee Williams has >elucidated this. I found two other instances on the Web which are exactly >analogous, possibly copied from Williams' usage: they add nothing. > Well, if anyone else wants to speculate, here are the three hits I found for "piece of Spanish news", all from dramatic (not to say soap-operatic) dialogue, each supporting Doug's characterization that they seem to be cloned from T.W.'s use. http://members.aol.com/blosslover/bluff.html http://members.tripod.com/ace_picac/trans09.html http://www.geocities.com/fantomas6/TRUEROMANCE2-Scene3.htm (This last one is particularly close to "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" in ambience, if not quality. But it's still interesting to me that this collocation could be slipped into even as many as four scenes with no elucidation provided.) I tried "Spanish news", but that fetched too many irrelevant hits of actual Spanish news. larry From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 14 15:03:23 2001 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:03:23 -0800 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's neither "tis" nor "tes"; it's "dus" or "deez". ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 14 17:28:44 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:28:44 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <20011214150323.73460.qmail@web9708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Picky, picky! But you're right, of course (and phonetically, we should be using APA [D] for the flap). In fact, the more I say this word to myself, the more I realize I alternate between the two prons. Isn't this common with "bookish" or learned terms like 'diabetes'? I suspect it's not a regional matter at all. At 07:03 AM 12/14/01 -0800, you wrote: >It's neither "tis" nor "tes"; it's "dus" or "deez". > > > > >===== >James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything >SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued >jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of >your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com >or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From pcleary at WANS.NET Fri Dec 14 17:38:39 2001 From: pcleary at WANS.NET (Philip E. Cleary) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:38:39 -0500 Subject: Mong Message-ID: A news report, which is available at http://www.ananova.com/yournews/story/sm_473532.html, states that an 83-year-old Australian man stabbed his wife to death because she called him a "mong." What is a "mong"? Phil Cleary From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Dec 14 17:45:29 2001 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:45:29 -0600 Subject: Phrase inquiry: "Spanish news" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011214090743.02500200@nb.net> Message-ID: Is the play set in the time of the Spanish revolution? DMLance > From: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:19:19 -0500 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Fwd: Phrase inquiry: "Spanish news" > > I can't find anything. Maybe some commentator on Tennessee Williams has > elucidated this. I found two other instances on the Web which are exactly > analogous, possibly copied from Williams' usage: they add nothing. > > I am reduced to rank speculation. What word could replace "Spanish" here > and make sense? I have three answers, giving three interpretations of > "Spanish". Take your pick, if you can't find anything better. > > (1) "Spanish" = "hot" (climate, spicy food, passionate temperament, ...). > > (2) "Spanish" = "blunt" -- from equating the old slang nouns "spanish" and > "blunt", both meaning "money" in the same milieu (I think). > > (3) [my favorite] "Spanish" = "spick-and-span" = "fresh", merely an > intensifier for "new(s)" ... "spick-and-span" of course says "Spanish" > twice, once as vulgar slang and once as an abbreviation. > > -- Doug Wilson > From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Dec 14 17:47:10 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:47:10 -0500 Subject: Mong In-Reply-To: <00a301c184c6$8feab800$afa7c540@31j9t01> Message-ID: > A news report, which is available at > http://www.ananova.com/yournews/story/sm_473532.html, states that an > 83-year-old Australian man stabbed his wife to death because she called him > a "mong." > > What is a "mong"? Presumably this would be Australian slang _mong_ 'a desicable person', ultimately from _mongrel_, and not to be confused with British slang _mong_ 'an idiot; fool', from _Mongol_. Jesse Sheidlower Oxford English Dictionary From douglas at NB.NET Fri Dec 14 20:12:18 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:12:18 -0500 Subject: Mong In-Reply-To: <20011214124710.A17965@panix.com> Message-ID: > > What is a "mong"? > >Presumably this would be Australian slang _mong_ 'a desicable person', >ultimately from _mongrel_, and not to be confused with British slang >_mong_ 'an idiot; fool', from _Mongol_. I suspect it might instead be Australian slang _mong_ "stupid/annoying person"/"dork" from _mongo_ from _mongoloid_ [i.e., "mongoloid idiot" I guess], as shown in Macquarie's -- http://www.macnet.mq.edu.au/p/dictionary/slang-m.html -- along with the other "mong" = "mongrel". -- Doug Wilson From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Dec 14 20:20:53 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:20:53 -0500 Subject: Mong In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011214150211.024e6d50@nb.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 03:12:18PM -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> What is a "mong"? > > > >Presumably this would be Australian slang _mong_ 'a desicable person', > >ultimately from _mongrel_, and not to be confused with British slang > >_mong_ 'an idiot; fool', from _Mongol_. > > I suspect it might instead be Australian slang _mong_ "stupid/annoying > person"/"dork" from _mongo_ from _mongoloid_ [i.e., "mongoloid idiot" I > guess], as shown in Macquarie's -- > > http://www.macnet.mq.edu.au/p/dictionary/slang-m.html Hmm. This seems to be newer Australian slang; it's not in the Australian National Dictionary for example. Since the speaker in question was, what, 83?, it still seems likely that the _mongrel_ variant is the likely candidate. (The earliest OED has for _mong_ 'idiot' (< _mongoloid_) is 1980, and is labelled British; while there's clearly current Aus use if Macquarie is to be trusted, it still seems like a rather elderly man wouldn't have been using this sense.) Jesse Sheidlower OED From Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM Fri Dec 14 20:28:40 2001 From: Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:28:40 -0500 Subject: Mark Mandel/Dragon Systems USA is out of the office. Message-ID: I will be out of the office starting 2001-12-14 and will not return until 3000-01-01. I am GONE. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Fri Dec 14 20:46:02 2001 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:46:02 -0700 Subject: Not English, but certainly American... Message-ID: We discuss American English on this list all the time, But here's a bit on a development in a somewhat different American variety (the New Testament translated into Hawaiian Pidgin English), courtesy of the school newspaper of BYU's sister campus in Hawaii: http://www.byuh.edu/kealakai/current/pages/da%20jesus%20book.html The article begins: "When Christ commissioned the teaching of his gospel to 'every nation, kindred, tongue and people,' few could have realized the extent of this command. Finally, after 12 years, island pidgin speakers now have the gospel of the New Testament available to their own people in their own peculiar tongue. 'Da Jesus Book' was a labor of love for retired Cornell University linguistics professor Joseph Grimes. With the use of 26 pidgin speakers, Grimes was able to translate the entire New Testament with the publishing aid of Wycliffe Bible Translators, the world's largest organization responsible for translating holy writ into languages of tribal and indigenous people." David Bowie Department of Linguistics Assistant Professor Brigham Young University db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 14 07:54:48 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:54:48 +0800 Subject: Mong In-Reply-To: <20011214152053.A18882@panix.com> Message-ID: At 3:20 PM -0500 12/14/01, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 03:12:18PM -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >> What is a "mong"? >> > >> >Presumably this would be Australian slang _mong_ 'a desicable person', >> >ultimately from _mongrel_, and not to be confused with British slang >> >_mong_ 'an idiot; fool', from _Mongol_. >> >> I suspect it might instead be Australian slang _mong_ "stupid/annoying >> person"/"dork" from _mongo_ from _mongoloid_ [i.e., "mongoloid idiot" I >> guess], as shown in Macquarie's -- >> > > http://www.macnet.mq.edu.au/p/dictionary/slang-m.html Ah, the return of dork! > >Hmm. This seems to be newer Australian slang; it's not in the >Australian National Dictionary for example. Since the speaker >in question was, what, 83?, it still seems likely that the >_mongrel_ variant is the likely candidate. > >(The earliest OED has for _mong_ 'idiot' (< _mongoloid_) is 1980, >and is labelled British; while there's clearly current Aus use >if Macquarie is to be trusted, it still seems like a rather elderly man >wouldn't have been using this sense.) > The "mongrel" version of "mong" is included in M. O. Wilkes's _A Dictionary of Australian Colloquialisms_ with a first cite (from a newspaper) in 1933. This is sense 3 (= 'a human being'; derogatory); senses 1 (abbr. of mongrel) and 2 ('any dog') go back to a cite in a Jack Moses novel published in 1923. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Dec 14 20:46:39 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:46:39 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20011214122421.03c74100@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Unfortunately, for me this is neither a bookish nor a learned term. As far as I can tell, I *always* have tense /i/ in the final syllable, and it's preceded by a lax voiceless tappish something or other. Now that I'm introspecting about it, I can't be 100% sure that my unstudied pronunciations wouldn't end in /z/ rather than /s/. However, I don't think I have the lengthening that would normally be associated with a following voiced consonant. Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Picky, picky! But you're right, of course (and phonetically, we should be >using APA [D] for the flap). In fact, the more I say this word to myself, >the more I realize I alternate between the two prons. Isn't this common >with "bookish" or learned terms like 'diabetes'? I suspect it's not a >regional matter at all. > >At 07:03 AM 12/14/01 -0800, you wrote: >>It's neither "tis" nor "tes"; it's "dus" or "deez". >> -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Dec 14 20:53:27 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:53:27 -0500 Subject: Phrase inquiry: "Spanish news" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For this, wouldn't the time of the Spanish-American war be more likely? It was coverage of this war that put the "yellow" in "yellow journalism", so to speak. Donald M Lance wrote: >Is the play set in the time of the Spanish revolution? >DMLance > >> From: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Reply-To: American Dialect Society >> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:19:19 -0500 >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Fwd: Phrase inquiry: "Spanish news" >> >> I can't find anything. Maybe some commentator on Tennessee Williams has >> elucidated this. I found two other instances on the Web which are exactly >> analogous, possibly copied from Williams' usage: they add nothing. >> >> I am reduced to rank speculation. What word could replace "Spanish" here >> and make sense? I have three answers, giving three interpretations of >> "Spanish". Take your pick, if you can't find anything better. >> >> (1) "Spanish" = "hot" (climate, spicy food, passionate temperament, ...). >> >> (2) "Spanish" = "blunt" -- from equating the old slang nouns "spanish" and >> "blunt", both meaning "money" in the same milieu (I think). >> >> (3) [my favorite] "Spanish" = "spick-and-span" = "fresh", merely an >> intensifier for "new(s)" ... "spick-and-span" of course says "Spanish" >> twice, once as vulgar slang and once as an abbreviation. >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From douglas at NB.NET Fri Dec 14 21:45:55 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:45:55 -0500 Subject: Mong In-Reply-To: <20011214152053.A18882@panix.com> Message-ID: > > >Presumably this would be Australian slang _mong_ 'a desicable person', > > >ultimately from _mongrel_, and not to be confused with British slang > > >_mong_ 'an idiot; fool', from _Mongol_. > > > > I suspect it might instead be Australian slang _mong_ "stupid/annoying > > person"/"dork" from _mongo_ from _mongoloid_ [i.e., "mongoloid idiot" I > > guess], as shown in Macquarie's -- > > > > http://www.macnet.mq.edu.au/p/dictionary/slang-m.html > >Hmm. This seems to be newer Australian slang; it's not in the >Australian National Dictionary for example. Since the speaker >in question was, what, 83?, it still seems likely that the >_mongrel_ variant is the likely candidate. > >(The earliest OED has for _mong_ 'idiot' (< _mongoloid_) is 1980, >and is labelled British; while there's clearly current Aus use >if Macquarie is to be trusted, it still seems like a rather elderly man >wouldn't have been using this sense.) But .... (1) Is "mong" = "mongrel" commonly used figuratively? [I don't know the answer.] I've seen it used for a dog, IIRC. The on-line Macquarie shows "mong" = "mongrel dog" and it's not clear to me whether this is routinely used as an insult like "mongrel" itself apparently is. If "mong" (= "mongrel dog") is used as a casual insult, it will typically be indistinguishable from the other "mong", I think ... probably even to the speaker. (2) In the context of the article -- <> -- I think "mong = "dork"/"idiot" fits better than "mong[rel]" = "dog" [fig.] or "mong[rel]" = "person of mixed ancestry" (another theoretical possibility). (3) The woman who made the 'mistake' of using this word was only 82! (4) Older persons often get arthritis etc. and don't go out as much as previously ... so they watch the "mong box" a lot, and pick up all sorts of bad language. -- Doug Wilson From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Dec 15 03:09:21 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:09:21 EST Subject: A man for the next millenium Message-ID: In a message dated 12/14/2001 3:41:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM writes: > I will be out of the office starting 2001-12-14 and will not return until > 3000-01-01. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Dec 15 03:26:56 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:26:56 -0500 Subject: A man for the next millenium In-Reply-To: <4d.1609b43a.294c18e1@aol.com> Message-ID: >In a message dated 12/14/2001 3:41:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, >Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM writes: > >> I will be out of the office starting 2001-12-14 and will not return until >> 3000-01-01. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cryonics, perhaps? A. Murie From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sat Dec 15 15:50:19 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:50:19 -0500 Subject: Who Needs Dictionaries?/CUT A CHECK Message-ID: I realize this is a heretical and slightly schismatic question for a lexicographer to ask. It has, however, as we all know, been asked since the incunabula days of Western, esp. English lexicography. In a variant form, the question is, "Why not just have dictionaries of hard words?" For example, suppose you don't know what "to cut a check/cheque" means. This is the assumption on which dictionary usage is based: you look up words you don't know. To dodge the issue, one claims to be a "native speaker" who knows such words and phrases from diaper days. Only learners ask such questions. I spent a few minutes this morning checking such vade mecums as the Concise Oxford, the Collegiate, and my own latest User's(r) Webster! Then I used my personal method of getting meaningS straight from the horse's mouth, so to say, not in the cud-chewed or abstract form used by conventional (no offence meant) dictionaries, a method that uses databases or corpora that provide meaning in context. (OED comes close to satisfying the need, but that's a different world). "Google.com" took just 0.64 seconds to display scads of citations. I think even a "non-native" or "learner" who has passed Grade 7 should be able to get the meaning from the cites displayed, though not in a formal, quotable form, as used in a class room. But if you need a formal definition, can you locate what you want (e.g. cut a check) in a conventional dictionary? And how long would it take? The question for me is, which is more important - the medium or the message? Personally, I'd like to see a dictionary that has more of good contemporary idiomatic English text and less of the abstract kind of definitions and which can be searched like Google. In dictionary-making, text should increase, "definitions" should decrease. End of self-serving lecture. TOM PAIKEDAY From Barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Dec 15 17:19:14 2001 From: Barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 12:19:14 -0500 Subject: Who Needs Dictionaries?/CUT A CHECK Message-ID: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA,Net writes: .... Personally, I'd like to see a dictionary that has more of good >contemporary idiomatic English text and less of the abstract kind of >definitions and which can be searched like Google. In dictionary-making, >text should increase, "definitions" should decrease. End of self-serving >lecture. > Rather like you find in The Barnhart Dictionary Companion? End of my self-serving response. Happy Holidays to all, David barnhart at highlands.com From lisawitt at GTE.NET Sat Dec 15 20:04:14 2001 From: lisawitt at GTE.NET (Lisa Wittenberg Hillyard) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 12:04:14 -0800 Subject: Blessed Message-ID: Blessed as a verb is /blEst/ Blessed as an adjective is /blEs ed/ Are there other examples of this process? One gets kissed /kist/ under the holly sprig. *He was the first kissed /kis ed/ guest. They bussed /bust/ the troops to the city. *The bussed /bus ed/ troups arrived at noon. Perhaps, blest is OE spelling, but the pronunciation would persist with the regular preterit spelling. Can anyone comment on the adjective pronunciation? Is it an emphatic usage started in the church (Blessed Virgin) that has become accepted? or is there another story here? -lisa From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 15 08:58:39 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:58:39 +0800 Subject: Blessed In-Reply-To: <3C1BACB6.CABC5F45@gte.net> Message-ID: At 12:04 PM -0800 12/15/01, Lisa Wittenberg Hillyard wrote: >Blessed as a verb is /blEst/ >Blessed as an adjective is /blEs ed/ > >Are there other examples of this process? > >One gets kissed /kist/ under the holly sprig. >*He was the first kissed /kis ed/ guest. > >They bussed /bust/ the troops to the city. >*The bussed /bus ed/ troups arrived at noon. > Not quite the same, but EVENING (three syllables) as a verb ("evening out the results/batter") vs. EV'NING (two syllables) as a noun ("spend an evening out"). Some posters earlier wrote about "striped" /strayp ed/ in your transcription system (two syllables), and I seem to recall (though I'm not going to check the archive at the moment) that for a subset of them not ALL instances of "striped" had the extra syllable--strip-ed (bisyll.) kitty vs. striped (monosyll.) toothpaste, perhaps? For us Noo Yawkuhs, they're all /straypt/. larry From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Dec 15 22:22:58 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 17:22:58 -0500 Subject: Blessed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, They're all monosyllabic for me, except, oddly, in the curious "to run like a striped-assed ape" (i.e., fast). dinIs >At 12:04 PM -0800 12/15/01, Lisa Wittenberg Hillyard wrote: >>Blessed as a verb is /blEst/ >>Blessed as an adjective is /blEs ed/ >> >>Are there other examples of this process? >> >>One gets kissed /kist/ under the holly sprig. >>*He was the first kissed /kis ed/ guest. >> >>They bussed /bust/ the troops to the city. >>*The bussed /bus ed/ troups arrived at noon. >> >Not quite the same, but EVENING (three syllables) as a verb >("evening out the results/batter") vs. EV'NING (two syllables) as a >noun ("spend an evening out"). > >Some posters earlier wrote about "striped" /strayp ed/ in your >transcription system (two syllables), and I seem to recall (though >I'm not going to check the archive at the moment) that for a subset >of them not ALL instances of "striped" had the extra >syllable--strip-ed (bisyll.) kitty vs. striped (monosyll.) >toothpaste, perhaps? For us Noo Yawkuhs, they're all /straypt/. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From douglas at NB.NET Sat Dec 15 22:46:19 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 17:46:19 -0500 Subject: Blessed Message-ID: >Blessed as a verb is /blEst/ >Blessed as an adjective is /blEs ed/ I think the adjective is either way. >Are there other examples of this process? The most obvious one is "cursed". >Can anyone comment on the adjective pronunciation? Is it an emphatic usage started in the church (Blessed Virgin) that has become accepted? I can comment on anything, but not necessarily sensibly or cogently. I think the stretched versions of "blessed" and "cursed" are probably favored by solemn/pompous/weighty church or church-like uses. There are also poetic uses ("the hornéd moon") and jocular ones ("I'm not [stupid/stoopéd], I'm standing up straight"). -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 15 11:11:10 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 19:11:10 +0800 Subject: Blessed In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011215174519.024e0ec0@nb.net> Message-ID: At 5:46 PM -0500 12/15/01, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >Blessed as a verb is /blEst/ >>Blessed as an adjective is /blEs ed/ > >I think the adjective is either way. > >>Are there other examples of this process? > >The most obvious one is "cursed". > >>Can anyone comment on the adjective pronunciation? Is it an emphatic >usage started in the church (Blessed Virgin) that has become accepted? > >I can comment on anything, but not necessarily sensibly or cogently. I >think the stretched versions of "blessed" and "cursed" are probably favored >by solemn/pompous/weighty church or church-like uses. There are also poetic >uses ("the hornéd moon") and jocular ones ("I'm not [stupid/stoopéd], I'm >standing up straight"). > >-- Doug Wilson How about--in honor of the holiday season--a short-wicked candle vs. a short, wicked elf? larry From indigo at WELL.COM Sun Dec 16 02:52:45 2001 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 18:52:45 -0800 Subject: Not English, but certainly American... In-Reply-To: <200112150512.VAA25359@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: I love pidgin so I got all excited about this... turns out there's a whole website for this project & my favorite page is this one: http://www.pidginbible.org/id6.htm >development in a somewhat different American variety (the New Testament >translated into Hawaiian Pidgin English) Indigo Som indigo at well.com Poets don't have hobbies; they have obsessions --Leonard Nathan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 16 03:29:07 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:29:07 EST Subject: White Mountain Cake, Molasses Cookies (1862) Message-ID: From THE HOUSEHOLD JOURNAL OF POPULAR INFORMATION, AMUSEMENT AND DOMESTIC COOKERY, published at 20 North William Street, New York City. From 5 September 1862, pg. 367, col. 3: WHITE MOUNTAIN CAKE. One cupful of white sugar; two eggs; one-half cupful of milk; one-half cupful of butter; one-half teaspoonful of soda; one do. cream tartar; two cupfuls of flour. From 23 August 1862, pg. 334, col. 2: MOLASSES COOKIES. One cup of lard; two and a half cups of molasses; two teaspoonfuls soda; two eggs; one teaspoonful alum; one cup of sweet milk. New Orleans molasses makes nice cakes than any other. ("White Mountain Cake" is all over 19th century books, but I don't have early cites. Mariani never mentions it; DARE is not on the letter "W." It's in MRS. PORTER'S SOUTHERN COOKERY BOOK (1871). Both of these items are in Marion Harland's COMMON SENSE IN THE HOUSEHOLD (1872), available on the Making of America-Books database. I've been lobbying for "molasses cookies" for OED's "M" revision--ed.) From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Dec 16 14:27:16 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 09:27:16 -0500 Subject: Blessed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, Careful, or some wag will write in about a short-wicked elf! dInIs >At 5:46 PM -0500 12/15/01, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >Blessed as a verb is /blEst/ >>>Blessed as an adjective is /blEs ed/ >> >>I think the adjective is either way. >> >>>Are there other examples of this process? >> >>The most obvious one is "cursed". >> >>>Can anyone comment on the adjective pronunciation? Is it an emphatic >>usage started in the church (Blessed Virgin) that has become accepted? >> >>I can comment on anything, but not necessarily sensibly or cogently. I >>think the stretched versions of "blessed" and "cursed" are probably favored >>by solemn/pompous/weighty church or church-like uses. There are also poetic >>uses ("the hornéd moon") and jocular ones ("I'm not [stupid/stoopéd], I'm >>standing up straight"). >> >>-- Doug Wilson > >How about--in honor of the holiday season--a short-wicked candle vs. >a short, wicked elf? > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 16 18:27:10 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 13:27:10 EST Subject: Hop-in-John; Mother Used to Make; Big Apple-Big Easy Message-ID: HOP-IN-JOHN (for HOPPING JOHN)--I was going through the GOOD HOUSEKEEPING index I have here and found January-June 1909: "Hop-in-John...247." My guess is that you serve "Hop-in-John" last. MOTHER USED TO MAKE--OED's first (revised "M" entry?) is P. G. Wodehouse from 1919. I'd posted some "mother used to make" (for "home cooking") here before. The GOOD HOUSEKEEPING index, March 1896: "Howard's Hash: the Kind That Mother Used to Make," in "The Bachelor and the Chafing Dish," page 112. BIG APPLE-BIG EASY--According to a story in the 12-12-01 New Orleans TIMES-PICAYUNE, Big Apple-to-Big Easy ads will start to appear in Times Square in about a week, to promote New York-New Orleans tourism. I sent an e-mail to the T-P and told them about my ten-year campaign to honor the African-American who came up with "the Big Apple," but no one listens. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 17 00:40:30 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 19:40:30 EST Subject: CUE's "Table Talk" (1938-1939) Message-ID: CUE (NY, NY) no longer exists. It merged into NEW YORK magazine, and now there's also TIME OUT NEW YORK for weekly food listings. CUE started out with entertainment stories, but quickly added restaurant ads and a weekly "Table Talk" column. A CUE book or two was published, but forget about that. You have to go through each issue. I'm looking at "Table Talk" from the 1930s through the 1960s. Columbia University has the full run of that. These "Table Talk" columns were written by Brailsford Felder, unless I tell you it's by Lawton Mackall (KNIFE AND FORK IN NEW YORK author) or someone else. 20 August 1938, pg. 12, col. 1--All over town the barmen tell us that the cocktail known variously as the _West Indies_, the _Cuban_, or the _Frozen Daiquiri_ is the up-and-coming drink of the moment. 10 September 1938, pg. 11, col. 3--Thursday is opulently Italian with _Stucchi Genovese_, which is a marvelous mating of chicken mousse and chicken livers _en brochette_, blanketed in ham, mushrooms, and truffles. 12 November 1938, pg. 10, col. 1--"New York Cut" is a phrase to conjure with on Western menus, and you can be sure that the word "cut" doesn't refer to the price. (Col. 2--ed.) ...Daiquiri-sipping glamor girls. 3 December 1938, pg. 41, col. 2--...you can order _Crepes Bacchus_--at no extra cost. They're _Crepes Suzette_ with a difference. The _Crepe_ is wrapped lovingly around a row of large white grapes before it gets its baptism of fire. 10 December 1938, pg. 43, col. 2--...ebon-hued Walnut Sauce by Cross & Blackwell, concocters also of luxurient Mushroom Catsup, besides turning out Mint sauce in their spare time. (...) Morton's 101 Sauce, slyly fruity and nutty; Ocar's glorified chili; Philippoff's Russian Mustard Sauce...trig earthenware _poupons_ of Dijon mustard.... 14 January 1939, pg. 36, col. 2--..._Patlijan Bostan_ is "tender pieces of lamb with Oriental dill and fresh tomatoes baked in oven," _Funduk Keofte_, "baked baby meat ball with tomato sauce," etc., etc. 21 January 1939, pg. 36, col. 1--...such other unfamiliar taste thrills as pomegranate cocktail, badami soup (with almonds and cocoanut), Dhal (lentils), Tulpadi (sesame seed cakes), copra (fresh fried cocoanut), burfee (almond cream cake), and, sounding like the Arabian Nights, rose petal coffee. 18 February 1939, pg. 39, col. 1--In which case, why not try a cutlet _a la Kieff_? (Casino Russe, 157 W. 56th Street--ed.) 4 March 1939, pg. 39, col. 2--Moa Oma Me Leko Me Palaoa is what Hawaiians call young boned chicken poached in a crock. As served in the Hawaiian Room of the Hotel Lexington it's the genuine Pacific Isles article except that it's wrapped in cellophane instead of plantain leaves. 11 March 1939, pg. 41, col. 2--When Fred C. Eberlin, who came to this country from Alsace in the mid-Nineteenth Century, decided to go into business for himself in 1872, he did so in the cellar at the corner of Wall St. and Broadway, where his establishment remained until the Irving Trust Company erected its giant skyscraper on the site and forced Eberlin's around the corner at 45 New St. The Eberlin tradition moved with it. The bartender, Henry Jacob, for instance, has been with Eberlin's 54 years, the "rectifier" (storeroom man, to you) 40 years. Eberlin employees of less than 25 years standing are looked upon as newcomers. Eberlin's claims to be the birthplace of the Gin Daisy, the Jack Rose, and the Jersey Lily; but proof positive is lost somewhere in the mists of time. 18 March 1939, pg. 43, col. 2--The slogan "Never a Dull Moment" means just what it says. (Radio Franks, 70 E. 55th St.--ed.) 15 April 1939, pg. 40, col. 3--Your cocktail arrives in a little individual shaker, and you can mix your own salad and dressing on an ambulatory salad wagon--a trick that brings out the chef who lurks in all of us. (See "salad bar" in ADS-L archives--ed.) 29 April 1939, pg. 45, col. 2--SINCE NEW YORK IS the culinary capital of these United States, it seems likely that the millions of visitors from the hinterland, who come to view the World's Fair's wonders, will want to include among their souvenirs a good many that are edible. (See "capital of the world" in ADS-L archives. Rudy Giuliani used the phrase last night on yet another appearance--his last?--on Saturday Night Live--ed.) 6 May 1939, pg. 44, col. 2--Nor is Miss (Faith--ed.) Bacon, though mentioned last, to be taken lightly. It is, in fact, Miss Bacon who will pop the eyes of the World's Fair visitors right out of their sockets. SHe claims, as you may have seen in the papers, to be the originator of the fan dance, and her two new Riviera specialties have been the subject of endless advance speculation. She adds one letter to "fan" and creates the "Fawn Dance." (...)(Col. 3--ed.) In her other dance Miss Bacon, who insists her work is art, not "porniography," will appear swathed in orchids. 13 May 1939, pg. 42, col. 3--To make a Gin and Vermouth Cup, put 1 cup (the kitchen measuring kind) of gin, 1/4 cup Vermouth, the juice of 3 lemons, 2 tablespoonsful of sugar syrup (3 if you use confectioners sugar) in a 2 quart pitcher, stir, fill up with cold charged water and serve in tall, slender glasses with a couple of lumps of ice in each one. 13 May 1939, pg. 47, col. 3--Between rhumbas at the Cuban Village you can experiment with _tasajo_, which is jerked beef, _apiazo_, which is the Cuban version of vegetable soup, and _congri_, which is black beans and rice cooked together--and get tight in the Cuban fashion on _daiquiris_ and _Cuba libres_ of real rum. 10 June 1939, pg. 42, col. 3--Essex House, since it takes its name from a close friend of a former Queen Elizabeth, is feeling very proprietary about the royal visit. Consequently, the Casino-on-the-Park has been done over in English chintz and is featuring a (Pg. 43, col. 1--ed.) new cocktail created in honor of the Queen and called "Her Majesty". This regal intoxicant is composed of 2/3 London Gin, 1/3 Benedictine, and the juice of 1 lime. It should be poured into a glass garnished with a twist of lime peel. (Compare the name with "Bloody Mary," also in 1939--ed.) 17 June 1939, pg. 42, col. 3--_Jajik_, a cold soup made of the Turkish version of sour cream.... 8 July 1939, pg. 43, col. 2--Apropos of the growing popularity of Vermouth drinks, the hotel Ambassador's head bartender, Nick, is keeping up with or, rather, ahead of the times. He's invented a new tall potation called the Ambassador Cooler which you'll probably want to try. It's actually a variation of the familiar Vermouth and soda, with a few new wrinkles. Into a tall glass pour 1 jigger of Italian Vermouth, 1 jigger of French Vermouth, a dash of Angostura Bitters, and a dash of Compari bitters. Add ice, garnish with a twist of lemon, and fill up with seltzer. Vermouth drinks, incidentally, are good news for the calory-conscious--they don't contain the pesky things. 29 July 1939, pg. 39, col. 3--Her Jade Cocktail, which is made of 4 cups of grapefruit juice, 1 cup of spinach juice, 1/4 cup of watercress juice, and a pinch of vegetable salt, will give you some idea of the limitless (Helena--ed.) Rubinstein imagination. 12 August 1939, pg. 32(?), col. 2--For a main dish in the Finnish manner try _Metsastajapihvi_, which means "hunter's steak" and is made with veal. Or, for a simpler dish, you might order _Olutmakkaraa_, a sort of Arctic hot dog made of "Finnfurters." 19 August 1939, pg. 33, col. 1--"Park Avenue" is the perfect drink. To one part of champagne and one part of brandy ass 1 slice of lemon, pour over ice in champagne glasses and let Nature take its own perfect course. 26 August 1939, pg. 33, col. 2--Consider the virtues of Frosted Sherry as the epcurean finale to a warm weather meal (or, for that matter, of a gala Wintertime dinner). It's made with 1 1/2 cups water, 1/2 cup of sugar, a 1/2-inch stick of cinnamon, 2 cups of grape juice, 2 cups of pineapple juice, 1 1/2 teaspoons of grated lemon rind, 3 tablespoons of quick-cooking tapioca, 1 cup of fresh raspberries, 1/2 cup of sherry. (...) 23 September 1939, pg. 31, col. 2--You might try "oke" punch, which comes in a cocoanut shell that you can take home with you, and as a main dish, Moa Oma Me Leko Me Palao, which is the Hawaiian way of describing young boned chicken with artichoke hearts and other matters. 14 October 1939, pg. 40, col. 3--_Food Cue of the Week_--The Caruso Restaurant Chain will send out on request anywhere in Manhattan, chicken dinners consisting of (1) a spiral-roasted milk fed chicken, (2) vegetables, (3) bread and butter, all for $2. Serves 4. No charge for delivery. (See archives for "take-out"--ed.) 21 October 1939, pg. 31, col. 3--_Food Cue of the Week_--Pepperidge Farm Bread is very much in the "for those who can afford and appreciate the best" tradition. It is actually home baked at Pepperidge Farm, the country estate of one Mrs. Margaret Rudkin up near Westport, and rushed to town via American Express between midnight and dawn each morning. It comes in white and whole wheat and retails for 25 cents a loaf at Vendome, 415 Madison Ave., or at your local Gristede's. 18 November 1939, pg. 32--(Thanksgiving at the White Turkey Town House, 1 University Place/NYU, of "turkey" interest--ed.) 9 December 1939, pg. 43, col. 3--_Food Cue of the Week_--Mississippi Pecan Pie at Little Old Mansion, 61 E. 52nd St., comes on the regular $1 and up dinner. Miss Gladys Caton Wilcock, Little Old Mansion proprietress, has graciously given the recipe to this department and copies will be sent to readers on request. 23 December 1939, pg. 31, col. 3--_Food Cue of the Week_--Banana Chips, a smart new idea for the cocktail hour, look like potato chips, are made of bananas, and taste like neither. They're 25 cents the 4 oz. bag at Wanamaker's, Macy's, Vendome, McCreery's. (To Be Continued--ed.) From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Dec 17 01:35:26 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:35:26 -0500 Subject: Pepperidge farm What? Message-ID: >>From Bapopik's Table Talk post of 12/16: >21 October 1939, pg. 31, col. 3--_Food Cue of the Week_--Pepperidge Farm >Bread is >very much in the "for those who can afford and appreciate the >best" tradition. It is >actually home baked at Pepperidge Farm, the >country estate of one Mrs. Margaret >Rudkin up near Westport, and rushed >to town via American Express between >midnight and dawn each morning. It >comes in white and whole wheat and retails for >25 cents a loaf at >Vendome, 415 Madison Ave., or at your local Gristede's. ~~~~~~~~~ Can't imagine anyone saying this about the stuff that's sold under that name today! A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 17 05:21:02 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:21:02 EST Subject: Barney Gallant mystery book (1941) Message-ID: From CUE, 14 June 1941, pg. 25, col. 1: _MILKMAN'S MEMOIRS:_ Barney Gallant, who has been a Manhattan restaurateur, principally in the Village, for 25 years, has just completed a book _My Past Pursues Me_ which he wrote in the cold gray dawn after his University Place bistro closed for the morning. A series of excerpts therefrom, entitled _The Vanishing Village_, begins in the July _Cosmopolitan_. --BRAILSFORD FELDER Where is this book? I had looked through the "restaurateur" subject heading, and I've read every single book that I could get my hands on. But this one is new to me. I checked the NYPL. No listing. I checked NYU/N-Y Historical Society. No listing. I checked OCLC WorldCat. No listing. I checked Bookfinder.com and Bibliofind.com. No listing. No listing under Barney Gallant. No listing under MY PAST PURSUES ME. Various other authors for THE VANISHING VILLAGE. I'll check out the July 1941 COSMOPOLITAN magazine for the excerpts. Barney Gallant was a Greenwich Village restaurateur for 25 years. The book came out in 1941. If I'm really lucky, it'll have a word or two on gay=homosexual. But where is the book? -------------------------------------------------------- OFF TOPIC: Andy Soltis's chess problem in today's SUNDAY NEW YORK POST (www.nypost.com), from Yermolinsky-Tate, Reno 2001 (maybe it's on the internet), is a beauty. It's a classic opening trap, and the answer is... Qa4. From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Dec 17 08:12:47 2001 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:12:47 -0800 Subject: urban legends In-Reply-To: <30.1f9b663d.294ea629@aol.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Dec 17 12:59:59 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 07:59:59 EST Subject: urban legends Message-ID: In a message dated 12/17/01 3:14:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET writes: > I have just been reading the Urban Legends page and came across one about > dictionaries that seems familiar. I have checked it in my MW Unabridged, > 2nded (1934), and, by God, it's there! > > It's the entry "dord"; which has a pron but no etym. The def > is Physics & Chemistry Density. There is no such word. Seems > the entry, which should have gone to the abbreviation section as "D or d", got > into the word pile and was entered alphabetically as a word. Once a > pronunciation was added (Rima,you are not to blame for this one), it became > an official entry in the MW Unabridged. No one seems to have noticed > that it had no etym, however. In fact it was the lack of etymology that eventually gave it away. >From URL http://members.aol.com/gulfhigh2/words1.html DORD is a non-existent word entered into the second edition of Webster's New International Dictionary by mistake. The following is taken from The Story of Webster's Third: Philip Gove's Controversial Dictionary and Its Critics by Herbert C. Morton (1994): When the guidelines for etymology in Webster's Third were nearing completion, Gove [editor of the "Third"] took time out to add the story of dord to the lore of how things can go wrong in dictionary making. Dord was a word that had appeared spontaneously and had found a quiet niche in the English language two decades earlier. It was recorded in Webster's Second in 1934 on page 771, where it remained undetected for five years. It disappeared from the dictionary a year later without ever having entered common parlance. The facts, which had been established years earlier through a search of company files, were as follows, as abridged from Gove's explanation. The lack of an etymology for dord, meaning "density," was noted by an editor on February 28, 1939, when he was perusing the dictionary. Startled by the omission, he went to the files to track down what had happened and what needed to be done. There, he found, first, a three-by-five white slip that had been sent to the company by a consultant in chemistry on July 31, 1931, bearing the notation "D or d, cont/ density." It was intended to be the basis for entering an additional abbreviation at the letter D in the next edition. The notation "cont," short for "continued," was to alert the typist to the fact that there would be several such entries for abbreviations at D. A change in the organization of the dictionary possibly added to the confusion that followed. For the 1934 edition, all abbreviations were to be assembled in a separate "Abbreviations" section at the back of the book; in the previous edition words and abbreviations appeared together in a single alphabetical listing (which is how they again appeared in the Third Edition.) But after the original slip was typed for editorial handling, it was misdirected. Eventually, it came to be treated with the words rather than with the abbreviations. Th editorial stylist who received the first typed version should have marked "or" to be set in italics to indicate that the letters were abbreviations (D or d). But instead, she drew a continuous wavy line underneath to signify that "D or d" should be set in boldface in the manner of an entry word, and a label was added, "Physics & Chem." Since entry words were to be typed with a space between letters, the editorial stylist may have inferred that the typist had intended to write d o r d; the mysterious "cont" was ignored. These errors should have been caught when the word was retyped on a different color slip for the printer, but they were not. The stylist who received this version crossed out the "cont" and added the part-of-speech label n for noun. "As soon as someone else entered the pronunciation," Gove wrote, "dord was given the slap on the back that sent breath into its being. Whether the etymologist ever got a chance to stifle it, there is no evidence. It simply has no etymology. Thereafter, only a proofreader had final opportunity at the word, but as the proof passed under his scrutiny he was at the moment not so alert and suspicious as usual." The last slip in the file -- added in 1939 -- was marked "plate change imperative/urgent." The entry was deleted, and the space was closed up by lengthening the entry that followed. In 1940 bound books began appearing without the ghost word but with a new abbreviation. In the list of meanings for the abbreviation "D or d" appeared the phrase "density, Physics." Probably too bad, Gove added, "for why shouldn't dord mean density?" A footnote indicates the excerpt above was based on Philip Gove, "The History of Dord," American Speech, 29 (1954): 136-8. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 17 02:03:58 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:03:58 +0800 Subject: urban legends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:59 AM -0500 12/17/01, James A. Landau wrote: > >DORD is a non-existent word entered into the second edition of Webster's New >International Dictionary by mistake. The following is taken from The Story of >Webster's Third: Philip Gove's Controversial Dictionary and Its Critics by >Herbert C. Morton (1994): >... This is a great story, although unfortunately the Webster's Second we have here in our department is a later printing from which "dord" has been brutally excised. ("dordectomy", anyone?) On the other hand, like every other Webster's Second, ours does include that immortal entry: TWAT. Some part of a nun's garb. Erron. Brown. Of course in this case, as the OED entry makes a bit more explicit, it's Browning's slip (from "Pippa Passes") that's showing, not the unknown lexicographer's. larry From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Dec 17 16:20:05 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:20:05 -0500 Subject: urban legends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I vaguely recall having heard that story during one of Ward Gilman's defining lessons (Gil has all the dirt on M-W flub-ups, including The Third International's chateaubriand sense 1, which, by some strange coincidence also appeared in a dictionary established for the express purpose of correcting W3!) FWIW, I checked the marked-up editorial copy of the 1934 printing of W2, and Rima's friend is absolutely right -- dord is there, with a delete mark running through it. The date of the correction is given as 11-21-40, and it appears first the 1947 printing of the book. Well, the wonder is that more mistakes like that don't get through. Preparing a new dictionary for publication is, in some ways, like working at a rest stop McDonald's in southern Connecticut during Christmas season. Joanne From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Dec 17 15:19:00 2001 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:19:00 -0500 Subject: Dord Message-ID: Aren't there also instances of 'words' inserted into dictionaries for the purpose of catching plagiarists such as the $1.59/volume dictionaries that used to be for sale in groceries? Certainly it would be worthwhile for Merriam to look to see how many of these contain entries for 'dord.' ___________________ We are all New Yorkers --Dominique Moisi New York is America. We're all in this together --Mayor Rudy Giuliani From carljweber at MSN.COM Mon Dec 17 16:42:53 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:42:53 -0600 Subject: Chicago Etymology Revisited Message-ID: Chicago Etymology Revisited Carl Jeffrey Weber A few days ago I posted this to the Linguist list. Now I see the American Dialectic Society has the more specific readership. In August of 2000 I ended my Chicago etymology comments with, "Not today, not next week, but sometime in the future I intend to refine and again summarize my data." Although I can not, still, with confidence say what the etymology of the word is, there are, nevertheless, as a result of this continuing investigation, various new and noteworthy linguistic, cartographic, and historical findings. In addition to input by more than a dozen Algonquianists and other linguists, there's been an extensive investigation of ALL the available relevant narratives and maps before 1700. These have been chronologically ordered, with allowance made for questionable examples, and examined in their historical settings. The two standing etymologies of Chicago, by Virgil J. Vogel (1958) and John F. Swenson (1991), each propose their own archetypical forms, "Chicagon" and "Chicagoua," and claim the word is regional, i.e., Miami/Illinois. My investigations have found new "earliest attestations" in a text (1680, a La Salle report) and on a map (1684, Franquelin's "La Louisiane," inspired by La Salle). A scan of the map, as a result of this investigation, has been recently acquired by the Newberry Library from the Harvard Library, where it had been tracked. The map shows La Salle's grand design for the vast Louisiana. The plan was intended for, and presented to, Louis XIV, who granted La Salle's plan. The data show the original form of the word was "Checagou" (on a few maps, "Chekagou"). With only one exception, this form is substantiated by the evidence. (The exception, Henri Joutel, has the famous "onions" quote, 1687, to which the foundation of the skunk/onion theory adverts -- and as will be suggested below, seems to have been a punning linguistic hoax!) There is a map from 1685 (Minet's) that Vogel cites as the earliest use of the word on a map (Checago), but this is a defective tracing, and impossible for simple reasons not here related. Of special note, the original written form I posit has "Che-" and NOT "Chi-"; also note, there is no "-a" on the end. By way of this etymological investigation, the various data indicate that La Salle introduced, popularized, and literally put Chicago on the map. The uses of this form, La Salle's "Checagou" (with the one mentioned legitimate exception), are found exclusively before 1697 -- the first seventeen years of the word's attested use. The uses are ALL traceable to La Salle's influence. Swenson's conclusion that "Chicagoua" was original, is not corroborated by the evidence. The "-a" at the end of the word was an addition that appeared nearly two decades AFTER La Salle's first use, and subsequent use by others. The terminal "-a" was not, as Swenson suggests, pre-existing and "conventionally" dropped. Vogel's "Chicagon" represents one of the more entertaining threads of Chicago etymology. There is an enduring and pervasive idea that in Chicago's etymological provenance there is somewhere to be found an "at the" nasal locative morpheme that at some point fell off the end of the word. Many still have an attachment to this idea. However, this thread is to be traced back to a typographical error (!) found in the 1714 English translation of Henri Joutel's narrative. (This is the short version, Joutel's long version was made available by Pierre Margry in 1876-86. Vogel was not aware of the long version when he wrote in 1958, and he executed some extreme blunders.) Joutel's 1714 "Chicagon" should have been "Chicagou," as in Margry. But the prize for historical Chicago etymology befuddlement should be bestowed on Henry Rowe Schoolcraft. He was popularly regarded in the 19th century as the foremost scholar of all things Indian. In the many editions of his immensely influential work, he parsed "Chicago" as "great+porcupine+place of." Joutel's 1714 locative typo ("-on") was passed on by Schoolcraft to Vogel. However, there WAS NO locative morpheme. In addition, Schoolcraft disseminated the "great" thread found in Chicago etymology, a thread that was quite energetic until the 1930s (the "great" is also found in Louis Hennepin, 1697, but will not be elaborated here). The "Chi-" of Chicoutimi IS supported by various kinds of evidence to mean "great". The Chicoutimi River, in Canada, is on 18th Century maps translated as "great discharge". The "Chi-" of Chicago, meaning "great," however, is currently universally rejected by Algonquianists. DATA: (1) There IS a proto-Algonquian word for "skunk," that in various derived languages, three hundred years ago, no doubt sounded very much like La Salle's "Checagou." (2) In fact, La Salle's spelling is acceptable for "skunk" in Fox/Sauk/Kickapoo and in Chaouanon (Shawnee) -- but these were NOT languages native to the area. (3) In 1687 is found the principal evidence for the current onion theory -- the Indians told Joutel that the place got its name ("Chicagou") from the onions that grew abundantly in the region. (4) However, three years before this, La Salle's "Checagou" (with a "k") had been put on Franquelin's official royal map. (5) Joutel's "Chi-" spelling (I repeat myself) is the only exception to La Salle's "Che-," found in the first seventeen years of the word's history. (6) The Indians did not tell Joutel that the word in Miami/Illinois was transparently the same word as "skunk" -- in fact it wasn't until the English narrative of John Tanner, in the 1830s, that the "skunk" etymology comes up at all. (7) In the Miami/Illinois language there WAS a word, "Chicagoua," that meant "skunk" and also referred to the Alium tricoccum, a sometimes foul smelling alium, which John Kirkland identified over a century ago as the onion (garlic/leek) of Joutel -- the identification confirmed and put on extensively footnoted foundations by Swenson. (8) La Salle opened up the Illinois territory in 1680 -- the same year Checagou was first written. This is no coincidence. Vogel and Swenson's presentations to the contrary, there is NO evidence for the word's use before 1680, even though several maps and narratives, before La Salle, had the opportunity to present it (Jolliet, Marquette, Allouez). From this early period, there is no evidence that any language but Miami/Illinois employed the "skunk" word as a stand-alone absolute for a plant. In a compound, and found only much later, the word was used adjectively, but this is not surprising, as a handy word for "foul smelling". It seems to have referred to the Sympocarpus foetidus (skunk cabbage), not the Alium tricoccum. This use, and Leonard Bloomfield's data, are removed in time sufficiently that they are quite feeble as etymological support. Three reasons that Chicago was NOT named after the onions (that themselves were named with the same Miami/Illinois word as "skunk") are: (1) The first two decades of the many examples in texts and on maps show a spelling (with "Che-" and with no terminal "-a") that was NOT a regional (Miami/Illinois) word. (2) The texts and maps are clear that the word had an application to the corridor from the southwest corner of Lake Michigan to the Illinois River -- more than fifty miles. This has not previously been clarified. It is not compelling that the entire distance should have been named after a small onion area up near Lake Michigan. (3) That the onions were associated with the skunk-word in the Miami/Illinois language is seen in Le Boulanger's (c. 1720) French -- Miami/Illinois Dictionary. Although this is occasionally cited, what has not been cited, amazingly, is that next to the Chicago word, as it indicates our particular alium, is written quite clearly the word "abusive". Given the field of repulsive sensory experience conveyed by "skunk," and given the fact that other Indian words also appear next to the onion (garlic/leek) entry as other names for it, it is, accordingly, not difficult to conclude that Le Boulanger's "abusive" stood in the same relation to it as in our modern English dictionaries the words "slang," "offensive," or "vulgar" might appear next to a particular entry. It was maledicta -- here, perhaps a humorous verbal fraud -- a punning homonym on La Salle's word -- a linguistic hoax on the white eyes. To summarize the main findings, so far, of this etymological investigation: La Salle introduced, popularized and literally put Chicago on the map; earlier etymological attestations in a text (1680) and on a map (1684) have been identified; the 1714 English translation of Joutel initiated the typographical nasal locative error; Schoolcraft is responsible for the wide dissemination of it, plus he spread the idea that "Chi-," in this case, was equivalent to "great"; the area to which the word applied seems to have been too extensive to have been named for the onions in one small part of it; and considering Le Boulanger's dictionary, what the Indians told Joutel in 1687 may well have been punning maledicta on La Salle's "Checagou". Questions and comments welcome.To be continued. From carljweber at MSN.COM Mon Dec 17 17:44:48 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:44:48 -0600 Subject: Coon Etymology Message-ID: Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >The dictionaries show "coon" = person, man, as current at about this >time, but the most likely meaning for "cutter" (= an attractive girl) >comes from the 1870s. Are there other meanings? >I would speculate that "coon" and "cutter" refer not to persons but to pieces of equipment. A cutter >might be some type of cutting tool; coon is opaque to me. Both Coon and Cutter are reasonably >common surnames. I came across a quite reasonable etymology ten years go while looking through some Civil War Negro Spiritual music. The daughter of William Lloyd Garrison (the great American abolitionist), while tending to the needs of emancipated slaves on the Gullah Islands, anthologized Negro spirituals. She also made notes on the Gullah dialect. "Coon" was the name that the ex-slaves called each other, and she indicates that it is the word "cousin" as expressed through the dialect. (The vowel of "coon" maintaining the French pronunciation.) Cf. "bruhvuh" as a lex-bond. As with many terms that members of ethnic communities call each other, they descend into the pejorative. This maledicta observation renders null and void the folklore etymology (as I've heard it) that "coon" relates to the coon dogs that used to hunt the raccoon. And then, when the southern whites put these coon dogs to pursuing Negroes, and the word transferred. From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Mon Dec 17 17:55:34 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:55:34 -0000 Subject: the problem is is that... Message-ID: There was a discussion on this list a while back about is-is, and I just came across the following in an essay I'm marking. So I send it on in case anyone's collecting these: (2nd year linguistics undergrad, conclusion sentence for aphasiology essay) However, the problem is, is that this is all [that] is shown since neuro-linguistics is still a long way off from being able to identify exactly how syntax is encoded or how a word is represented. Does this get the prize for the most 'is's in a sentence? Obviously, this is not a student who's a careful editor/proofreader (note the missing 'that'), but the comma after the first 'is' makes 'the problem is is that' look fairly deliberate. Off to the States for Christmas...see some of you at the LSA. Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Mon Dec 17 18:20:32 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:20:32 -0500 Subject: the problem is is that... In-Reply-To: <46610613.3217600534@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: This is of interest to me, since I'm working on a long-promised paper on this and related constructions (and I will get it to you soon, Arnold!). Of course the double "is" is deliberate, and it's become extremely common (the other "is"s are totally unrelated and completely "normal" in context). The omission of the subject relative pronoun "that" may not be a matter of careless proofreading at all; this omission is common in some dialects of both BritEng (cf. Trudgill) and AmEng, including Appalachian English (and its fringe variety here in SE Ohio). So you have two different issues here, one a matter of general spread throughout the U.S. (and Britain?); George Bush has used it many times, but Robert Stockwell once told me that it was (at that time) very common in California and the West in general, and now I hear it frequently in the Eastern media as well. The other issue (deleted subj. rel. 'that') is not general but dialectal. At 05:55 PM 12/17/01 +0000, you wrote: >There was a discussion on this list a while back about is-is, and I just >came across the following in an essay I'm marking. So I send it on in case >anyone's collecting these: > >(2nd year linguistics undergrad, conclusion sentence for aphasiology essay) >However, the problem is, is that this is all [that] is shown since >neuro-linguistics is still a long way off from being able to identify >exactly how syntax is encoded or how a word is represented. > >Does this get the prize for the most 'is's in a sentence? Obviously, this >is not a student who's a careful editor/proofreader (note the missing >'that'), but the comma after the first 'is' makes 'the problem is is that' >look fairly deliberate. > >Off to the States for Christmas...see some of you at the LSA. > >Lynne > > >Dr M Lynne Murphy >Lecturer in Linguistics >Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics >School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences >University of Sussex >Brighton BN1 9QH >UK > >phone +44-(0)1273-678844 >fax +44-(0)1273-671320 _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 17 18:59:09 2001 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:59:09 -0500 Subject: the problem is is that In-Reply-To: <20011214124710.A17965@panix.com> Message-ID: Searching on the string "the problem is is that" on Altavista brings up over 700 hits, fyi. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 17 19:02:55 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:02:55 EST Subject: Barney Gallant & Greenwich Village Message-ID: From the NEW YORK TIMES, 24 June 1968, pg. 37, col. 1: _Bequests Recall Barney Gallant and Prohibition_ A half dozen small bequests to New York friends have disclosed the death of Barney Gallant, whose Greenwich Village speakeasies and night clubs spiced the city's life from Prohibition days through the mid-1940's. Mr. Gallant died March 16 in Miami, and is buried there in Star of David Cemetery. He would have been 84 years old on May 1. (He never married...Simon & Schuster was going to publish his memoirs, but never did...Barney--real name Bernard--came to this country from Riga in 1903...He managed the Greenwich Village Theater and put on "The Greenwich Village Follies." He also staged a SInclair Lewis short story, "Hobohemia"...The Greenwich Village Inn was at Sheridan Square.. Barney Gallant's was at West Third Street, and the Washington Square Club was at 19 Washington Square. His best known spot was 86 University Place...I hope George Thompson is writing this all down for a bio--ed.) HEARST INTERNATIONAL COMBINED WITH COSMOPOLITAN: July 1941, pg. 28, "The Vanishing Village" by Barney Gallant. "Here begins the story of fabulous Greenwich Village tucked away in the heart of Manhattan, where free souls made literary and artistic history--and headlines. The author knew them all, the experimenters of yesterday who are the great names of today, and here relates with color and verve the saga of America's only Bohemia. August 1941, pg. 48. September 1941, pg. 43. I'll let you know if I find "gay." The library's kicking me off the computer for my half-hour. From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Mon Dec 17 19:07:28 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:07:28 -0000 Subject: the problem is is that Message-ID: Someone just wrote (and I deleted too soon!) that 'the problem is is that' gets 700 hits on (I think) Altavista. I tried using Altavista for exact word matches a while ago and found that even though I'd put the words into quote marks, it still ignored the words that are not supposed to 'count' in a search, like 'the' and 'is'. I wrote to them complaining about this, so maybe it's fixed, but I'd be cautious about trusting that number with out checking the websites it's 'hitting'--especially the ones that are lower on the list. Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From AAllan at AOL.COM Mon Dec 17 19:27:34 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:27:34 EST Subject: Recruitment opportunity Message-ID: Anybody want to tell her where she can take a course? Please e-mail her directly at annemris at space.com. - Allan Metcalf >>>I am studying for a Masters of Arts in Teaching and I need to take an undergraduate dialects class in order to become certified to teach English. I am finding that such courses (either at a school in my area or an online course) are difficult to find. Do you have a list of universities that offer courses on dialects? I would appreciate any information that ADS might have. Thank you for your time. Anne Risbridger Annapolis, MD phone 202-367-5211 email annemris at space.com<<< From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Mon Dec 17 14:39:31 2001 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:39:31 -0000 Subject: Dord Message-ID: There's one case of a deliberate error I know of, from the world of second language learners' dictionaries. The lexicographic community is small enough; the world of ESL/EFL lexicography is even smaller, and its practitioners in the 1980s had nearly all worked for all of the major houses--Longman, Oxford, and Collins. Needless to say, about the only thing that ensured that a given lexicographer's definition for given word would differ from the definition he or she had written the last time around was the individual house style. On top of that, innovative ideas that appeared in one house's flagship volume would be taken up by competitors in their next editions. When I was training under Michael Rundell, he used to get quite exercised over what he considered to be outright plagiarism of Longman content by Oxford. The lexicographers on the COBUILD project, the new kid on the block at the time, decided to test the plagiarism theory, and inserted the word "hink" into the entry list of the first edition. I think its meaning was given as "to think long and hard about something." The ploy was too obvious, and no one made the mistake of copying it; it was removed from the second edition. I'm sure there are a few hapless second language learners who only ever bought the first edition and still think it's a word. As junior lexicographers, however, I and the members of my team were taken with the idea of trying that stunt ourselves. In corpus searches, one of my British colleagues encountered the word "chiffonier," which she'd never seen before. She asked aloud if any of us had heard of it, pronouncing it as a French word (shi-fon-YAY). Not recognizing (shi-fon-EER) in that pronunciation, I said it sounded like a French term for someone in a house of haute couture whose job was dealing with chiffon. Once I saw the word written down I recognized it as the regional American term for a type of bedroom bureau, but we decided to give the spurious meaning as a second definition. Our senior editor caught it, though, and overruled its inclusion against our protests. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bergdahl" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Dord > Aren't there also instances of 'words' inserted into dictionaries for the > purpose of catching plagiarists such as the $1.59/volume dictionaries that > used to be for sale in groceries? Certainly it would be worthwhile for > Merriam to look to see how many of these contain entries for 'dord.' > ___________________ > We are all New Yorkers > --Dominique Moisi > New York is America. We're all in this together > --Mayor Rudy Giuliani From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Mon Dec 17 19:51:32 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:51:32 -0500 Subject: Recruitment opportunity In-Reply-To: <36.20945ca9.294fa126@aol.com> Message-ID: Ohio University has courses on American dialects in both the Linguistics and the English departments. The English dept. course is required for certification in Ohio, I believe (Dave Bergdahl can check me on this). Both courses use Wolfram and Schilling-Estes' textbook. I don't offer the Linguistics course online or via distance lrng (not sold on it yet, since I want hands-on in-class work), but the English dept. version might. At 02:27 PM 12/17/01 -0500, you wrote: >Anybody want to tell her where she can take a course? Please e-mail her >directly at >annemris at space.com. - Allan Metcalf > > >>>I am studying for a Masters of Arts in Teaching and I need to take an >undergraduate dialects class in order to become certified to teach English. I >am finding that such courses (either at a school in my area or an online >course) are difficult to find. > >Do you have a list of universities that offer courses on dialects? I would >appreciate any information that ADS might have. > >Thank you for your time. > >Anne Risbridger >Annapolis, MD >phone 202-367-5211 >email annemris at space.com<<< _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From sharper1 at NC.RR.COM Mon Dec 17 20:06:38 2001 From: sharper1 at NC.RR.COM (Steve Harper) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:06:38 -0800 Subject: Pepperidge farm What? Message-ID: Interesting. My father owned a small grocery in suburban Cincinnati from the mid-40s until 1972. I remember that when we first got Pepperidge Farm bread in the 50s it was still shipped by Railway Express (did they ever use _American_ Express to deliver bread?), and the delivery man would bring it in in the large boxes in which he had received it. It sold very well, too. Regards, Steve Harper Fayetteville, NC >On Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:35:26 -0500 sagehen wrote. >>>From Bapopik's Table Talk post of 12/16: >>21 October 1939, pg. 31, col. 3--_Food Cue of the Week_--Pepperidge Farm >>Bread is >very much in the "for those who can afford and appreciate the >>best" tradition. It is >actually home baked at Pepperidge Farm, the >>country estate of one Mrs. Margaret >Rudkin up near Westport, and rushed >>to town via American Express between >midnight and dawn each morning. It >>comes in white and whole wheat and retails for >25 cents a loaf at >>Vendome, 415 Madison Ave., or at your local Gristede's. >~~~~~~~~~ >Can't imagine anyone saying this about the stuff that's sold under that >name today! >A. Murie From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 17 20:23:11 2001 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:23:11 -0500 Subject: the problem is is that In-Reply-To: <46870077.3217604848@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: Lynne, I spot-checked a few of the hits and they were accurate, so maybe the problem has been fixed. Actually, I use Altavista all the time and have never encountered the problem of which you speak, for some reason. On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Lynne Murphy wrote: > Someone just wrote (and I deleted too soon!) that 'the problem is is that' > gets 700 hits on (I think) Altavista. I tried using Altavista for exact > word matches a while ago and found that even though I'd put the words into > quote marks, it still ignored the words that are not supposed to 'count' in > a search, like 'the' and 'is'. I wrote to them complaining about this, so > maybe it's fixed, but I'd be cautious about trusting that number with out > checking the websites it's 'hitting'--especially the ones that are lower on > the list. > > Lynne > > Dr M Lynne Murphy > Lecturer in Linguistics > Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics > School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences > University of Sussex > Brighton BN1 9QH > UK > > phone +44-(0)1273-678844 > fax +44-(0)1273-671320 > From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 17 20:28:14 2001 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:28:14 -0500 Subject: Recruitment opportunity In-Reply-To: <36.20945ca9.294fa126@aol.com> Message-ID: Harvard has an undergraduate course on dialects, Linguistics 80 "Dialects of English", taught by Bert Vaux. Ben On Mon, 17 Dec 2001 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote: > Anybody want to tell her where she can take a course? Please e-mail her > directly at > annemris at space.com. - Allan Metcalf > > >>>I am studying for a Masters of Arts in Teaching and I need to take an > undergraduate dialects class in order to become certified to teach English. I > am finding that such courses (either at a school in my area or an online > course) are difficult to find. > > Do you have a list of universities that offer courses on dialects? I would > appreciate any information that ADS might have. > > Thank you for your time. > > Anne Risbridger > Annapolis, MD > phone 202-367-5211 > email annemris at space.com<<< > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 17 07:46:55 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:46:55 +0800 Subject: Recruitment opportunity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We have one at Yale too (can't be outdone by Harvard, after all): Ling. 111, Dialects of English, co-taught (twice so far) by Dianne Jonas and me. But it's not on the books for next year, so I won't e-mail Ms. Risbridger. larry At 3:28 PM -0500 12/17/01, Benjamin Fortson wrote: >Harvard has an undergraduate course on dialects, Linguistics 80 "Dialects >of English", taught by Bert Vaux. > >Ben > >On Mon, 17 Dec 2001 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote: > >> Anybody want to tell her where she can take a course? Please e-mail her >> directly at >> annemris at space.com. - Allan Metcalf >> >> >>>I am studying for a Masters of Arts in Teaching and I need to take an >> undergraduate dialects class in order to become certified to teach >>English. I >> am finding that such courses (either at a school in my area or an online >> course) are difficult to find. >> >> Do you have a list of universities that offer courses on dialects? I would >> appreciate any information that ADS might have. >> > > Thank you for your time. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Dec 17 21:08:04 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:08:04 -0500 Subject: Recruitment opportunity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Laurence Horn wrote: >We have one at Yale too (can't be outdone by Harvard, after all): >Ling. 111, Dialects of English, co-taught (twice so far) by Dianne All of us in the south are a little backward, of course, so at UT our dialects course is a 400-level course, English/Linguistics 472, American English, tought by me. It will be offered next Spring 2003. Bethany From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Mon Dec 17 21:37:16 2001 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:37:16 -0600 Subject: Recruitment opportunity In-Reply-To: <36.20945ca9.294fa126@aol.com> Message-ID: The University of Maryland has this course: LING 460 Diversity and Unity in Human Languages (3 credits) Fundamentals of grammatical typology as they relate to issues in social attitudes towards language. Linguistic structure of standard and non-standard languages and dialects. Relationship of different writing systems to linguistic structure. Issues in bilingualism and multilingualism. It looks like it would be ideal for a teacher; perhaps a little too structural. It's in the graduate catalog but it looks as if it is a class open to undergrads as well. Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com >Anybody want to tell her where she can take a course? Please e-mail her >directly at >annemris at space.com. - Allan Metcalf > >>>>I am studying for a Masters of Arts in Teaching and I need to take an >undergraduate dialects class in order to become certified to teach English. I >am finding that such courses (either at a school in my area or an online >course) are difficult to find. > >Do you have a list of universities that offer courses on dialects? I would >appreciate any information that ADS might have. > >Thank you for your time. > >Anne Risbridger >Annapolis, MD >phone 202-367-5211 >email annemris at space.com<<< From hstahlke at ATT.NET Mon Dec 17 21:47:41 2001 From: hstahlke at ATT.NET (hstahlke at ATT.NET) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:47:41 +0000 Subject: the problem is is that... Message-ID: Beverly, Are you also dealing with "the problem being is ..."? That's the one I hear more often here in Central Indiana. Herb > This is of interest to me, since I'm working on a long-promised paper on > this and related constructions (and I will get it to you soon, > Arnold!). Of course the double "is" is deliberate, and it's become > extremely common (the other "is"s are totally unrelated and completely > "normal" in context). > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 17 22:24:19 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:24:19 -0500 Subject: Chicago Etymology Revisited In-Reply-To: <002c01c18719$e0be8900$48301342@computer> Message-ID: Maybe Carl Weber and Barry Popik should get together to produce a small monograph on the origins of "Chicago" and "Windy City." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Dec 17 22:40:54 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:40:54 -0500 Subject: Camb. Hist. Eng. Lang. vol. VI Message-ID: I've just gotten what I assume is a hot-off-the-press copy of The Cambridge History of the English Language, Volume VI: English in North America, edited by John Algeo. I assume this book will be of great interest to most ADS-L members. Among the essays are Michael Montgomery on British and Irish Antecedents; Fred Cassidy and Joan Hall on Americanisms; Jonathan Lighter on Slang; Lee Pederson on Dialects; Sali Mufwene on African-American English; Ron Butters on Grammatical Structure; Ed Finegan on Usage, and Richard Bailey on American English Abroad. It is, unfortunately, very expensive, like the other volumes in the series, but perhaps CUP will be offering discounted copies at LDA/ADS. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 17 23:49:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:49:45 EST Subject: "What, No Spinach?" Message-ID: Fred Shapiro has to have this line, or I'll throw him to Bluto. It's on the IMDB database for a film title from 1936. Google doesn't help much, but you can try it yourself. From "The Vanishing Village" by Barney Gallant, HEARST INTERNATIONAL/COSMOPOLITAN, August 1941, pg. 97, col. 1: Sonia ("the cigaret girl"--ed.) was among the first to celebrate the vitamin content of spinach. In her visits from restaurant to restaurant, she would examine the menus, and if her favorite vegetable were missing she would exclaim, "What, no spinach? This is a hell of a place, no spinach!" From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 18 00:00:59 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:00:59 EST Subject: How to Cook Potatoes, Apples, Eggs and Fish (1869) Message-ID: HOW TO COOK POTATOES, APPLES, EGGS AND FISH NEW YORK: DICK & FITZGERALD, PUBLISHERS 1869 Pg. 15: 33. SARATOGA POTATOES. Peel and shave the potatoes in very thin slices, put them on the ice, or in ice water until they are very cold. Put the frying pan over the fire, and while the butter or dripping is getting hot, drain and dry the sliced potatoes. When the fat begins to bubble, drop the potatoes in enough at a time to cover the bottom of the pan. Season them with salt and pepper, turn them over when browned, and when done drain them on a hair sieve for a few minutes, dish and serve. Pg. 138: 423. FISH A LA GENOISE. (Compare with "cioppino"--ed.) Clean, cut and bone any kind of sea-fish you can get; put the pieces into a stewpan, pepper them plentifully, and toss them in butter over the fire for about five minutes. Peel and cut into very thin rings some rather small onions, and an equal quantity of ripe tomatoes, quartered and divested of their pips; put the onions and tomatoes with the fish; simmer slowly until the onions begin to get tender; then arrange he fish round a dish, and pour the sauce in the middle. Pg. 129: 386. RED HERRINGS. (...) 389. FRENCH SARDINES OR TUNNY FISH. Take them out of the oil in which they are preserved, and pass them through yolk of egg seasoned with grated lemon-peel and white pepper, and fry them in oil or butter. From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 18 04:09:21 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:09:21 -0500 Subject: Bapopik@aol.com: Re: Chicago ety Message-ID: ----- Forwarded message from Bapopik at aol.com ----- Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:05:41 EST From: Bapopik at aol.com Subject: Fwd: Rejected posting to ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU To: X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) I can't even forward an ADS-L message to ADS-L! Oh well, never mind. --Barry Popik The American Name Society (post this on ANS-L!) has run articles on the name of "Chicago." I copied what the Chicago Historical Society has--there was a long study, but I don't know if it was Vogel (1958). On the "Windy City" front, I e-mailed my story to the Columbia Journalism Review. I had found the 1886 Chicago Tribune "Windy City" explanation while in the Columbia University Library. The "Windy City" myth involves a New York newspaper editor. Gerald Cohen (Comments on Etymology editor who published a "Windy City" article) graduated from Columbia. Columbia never wrote back. From conversa at IAC.NET Tue Dec 18 16:25:59 2001 From: conversa at IAC.NET (Conversa) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:25:59 -0500 Subject: subscribe Message-ID: I am an English teacher in China and saw your list at Conversa who subscribes to your list. If your list would be appropriate for an English teacher in China, please subscribe me at the email address below. Thank you. Luo Wei cleverida2001 at yahoo.com From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Dec 18 16:37:23 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:37:23 -0500 Subject: Southerns vs. southerners Message-ID: A few weeks before the passage quoted below, the editor of The Evening Star (Mordecai Noah) had reviewed a novel called The Kentuckian in New York, or, the Adventures or Three Southerns, published anonymously, as by "A Virginian". The paragraph below was preceeded by several paragraphs responding to the review, copied from an unnamed Georgia newspaper, but the specific remarks by the Georgia editor that prompted the paragraph I quote aren't included. Evidently since the book was published by Harper's, of New York City, the Georgia editor suspected that it was really by a Yankee. The author is in fact a Virginian, William Alexander Caruthers. Now read on. "As to the affectation which the editor charges in using the term Southerns, we would ask him for his authority in using Southerners. There is no authority on the subject except the Scotch, and it authorized Southrons. We had the authority of one of the most distinguished transatlantic female writers of the day for our term." Evening Star, July 2, 1834, p. 2, col. 4. I see that the earliest citations for Southerners, Southerns and Southrons given in the Dict of Americanisms are all from 1827 or 1828. DAE gives Southerns as first dated to 1834, and the subtitle of Kentuckian in New York is given as the source. George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Dec 18 17:06:19 2001 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:06:19 -0700 Subject: A resident of Provo? Message-ID: I figure that *somebody* on this list may know this one. I am in need of the one-word term for a resident of Provo (the town in Utah where Brigham Young University is located). Since i work in Provo, i figured i could just informally ask some natives of Provo what they call themselves, but i've gotten conflicting answers from them. So far i've gotten (approximately in order of descending frequency): Provoan, Provoite, Provonian, Provan, Provoer. About half the respondents have given Provoan, but some of the others have explicitly and spontaneously told me that whatever it is, it's *not* Provoan. I've looked in a few places where i'd expect to find answers to this sort of thing, and i've come up blank. (I don't even *want* to try to know what residents of Skull Valley, Utah are called! :-] ) Is this just a situation where i get to roll my own? David, who uses Waldorfian for residents of Waldorf, Maryland -- David Bowie Department of Linguistics Assistant Professor Brigham Young University db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Dec 18 17:04:41 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:04:41 -0500 Subject: mocha Message-ID: I don't mean to move in on Barry's turf, but here is an early citation for a food word. I see that the OED has citations for "mocha" from 1773, 1819 and 1871, all from English sources. "Saunder's Divan, in Broadway, near Liberty-street, is really a most comfortable lounge. – Most delicious mocha, distilled on a new principle – all that the amateur can wish to revel upon in choice old gems of paintings – the late periodicals – the leading daily journals – ottomans – sofas – chess and backgammon – dos amigos, &c., together with a peep through the jalousies at the panorama of beauty and fashion in Broadway, all for a quarter of a dollar." Evening Star, September 27, 1834, p. 2, col. 2 I notice also that the OED has citations from 1766, 1824, 1833 and 1851 for "jalousie", all from English sources, as well as several cites from Elizabethan Italian-English dictionaries. I do not know what "dos amigos" means in this context. A game, like chess and backgammon, perhaps? I didn't check it in OED. The "Divan" was an up-scale barber-shop. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From AAllan at AOL.COM Tue Dec 18 17:15:30 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:15:30 EST Subject: A resident of Provo? Message-ID: Paul Dickson's _Labels for Locals_ (Merriam-Webster, 1997) gives: Provoan. No further comment or explanation. - Allan Metcalf From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 18 17:23:43 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:23:43 -0500 Subject: mocha In-Reply-To: <1430f113f1.113f11430f@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 12:04:41PM -0500, George Thompson wrote: > I don't mean to move in on Barry's turf, but here is an early citation > for a food word. I see that the OED has citations for "mocha" from > 1773, 1819 and 1871, all from English sources. By now we have added cites from 1787, 1793, 1810, and 1838, so I'm afraid that we don't have the room for this one. Best, Jesse Sheidlower OED From hstahlke at ATT.NET Tue Dec 18 17:18:30 2001 From: hstahlke at ATT.NET (hstahlke at ATT.NET) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:18:30 +0000 Subject: Southerns vs. southerners Message-ID: I first came across "Southerns" in the writing of two of my undergraduates this semester, both Lower North women in their early twenties and from Central Indiana. What struck me with their usage was that it was in response to Dennis Preston's essay "They speak really bad English down South and in New York City" in Bauer and Trudgill's Language Myths, where he uses the term "Southerners" several times. Even after I pointed out their usage to them, they used it in their revisions. I'm curious how widely used "Southerns" is now. Herb Stahlke > A few weeks before the passage quoted below, the editor of The Evening > Star (Mordecai Noah) had reviewed a novel called The Kentuckian in New > York, or, the Adventures or Three Southerns, published anonymously, as > by "A Virginian". The paragraph below was preceeded by several > paragraphs responding to the review, copied from an unnamed Georgia > newspaper, but the specific remarks by the Georgia editor that prompted > the paragraph I quote aren't included. Evidently since the book was > published by Harper's, of New York City, the Georgia editor suspected > that it was really by a Yankee. The author is in fact a Virginian, > William Alexander Caruthers. > > Now read on. > > "As to the affectation which the editor charges in using the > term Southerns, we would ask him for his authority in using > Southerners. There is no authority on the subject except the Scotch, > and it authorized Southrons. We had the authority of one of the most > distinguished transatlantic female writers of the day for our term." > Evening Star, July 2, 1834, p. 2, col. 4. > > I see that the earliest citations for Southerners, Southerns and > Southrons given in the Dict of Americanisms are all from 1827 or 1828. > DAE gives Southerns as first dated to 1834, and the subtitle of > Kentuckian in New York is given as the source. > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Dec 18 17:55:23 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:55:23 -0500 Subject: A resident of Provo? In-Reply-To: <004b01c187e6$589a0040$0c53bb80@dtsnia.net> Message-ID: >OH NO! NOT VARIATION! NOT IN HUMAN LANGUAGE! AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!!!! DINIS >I figure that *somebody* on this list may know this one. > >I am in need of the one-word term for a resident of Provo (the town in Utah >where Brigham Young University is located). Since i work in Provo, i figured >i could just informally ask some natives of Provo what they call themselves, >but i've gotten conflicting answers from them. So far i've gotten >(approximately in order of descending frequency): Provoan, Provoite, >Provonian, Provan, Provoer. About half the respondents have given Provoan, >but some of the others have explicitly and spontaneously told me that >whatever it is, it's *not* Provoan. > >I've looked in a few places where i'd expect to find answers to this sort of >thing, and i've come up blank. > >(I don't even *want* to try to know what residents of Skull Valley, Utah are >called! :-] ) > >Is this just a situation where i get to roll my own? > >David, who uses Waldorfian for residents of Waldorf, Maryland >-- >David Bowie Department of Linguistics >Assistant Professor Brigham Young University >db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx > The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 18 05:00:14 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:00:14 +0800 Subject: A resident of Provo? In-Reply-To: <004b01c187e6$589a0040$0c53bb80@dtsnia.net> Message-ID: At 10:06 AM -0700 12/18/01, David Bowie wrote: >I figure that *somebody* on this list may know this one. > >I am in need of the one-word term for a resident of Provo (the town in Utah >where Brigham Young University is located). Since i work in Provo, i figured >i could just informally ask some natives of Provo what they call themselves, >but i've gotten conflicting answers from them. So far i've gotten >(approximately in order of descending frequency): Provoan, Provoite, >Provonian, Provan, Provoer. About half the respondents have given Provoan, >but some of the others have explicitly and spontaneously told me that >whatever it is, it's *not* Provoan. > no votes for Provosts? I always wondered where they came from... L From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Dec 18 18:35:34 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:35:34 -0500 Subject: A resident of Provo? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, I know where provosts come from (and so do you). How about Provolones? dInIs >At 10:06 AM -0700 12/18/01, David Bowie wrote: >>I figure that *somebody* on this list may know this one. >> >>I am in need of the one-word term for a resident of Provo (the town in Utah >>where Brigham Young University is located). Since i work in Provo, i figured >>i could just informally ask some natives of Provo what they call themselves, >>but i've gotten conflicting answers from them. So far i've gotten >>(approximately in order of descending frequency): Provoan, Provoite, >>Provonian, Provan, Provoer. About half the respondents have given Provoan, >>but some of the others have explicitly and spontaneously told me that >>whatever it is, it's *not* Provoan. >> >no votes for Provosts? > >I always wondered where they came from... > >L From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Dec 18 18:41:22 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:41:22 -0800 Subject: A resident of Provo? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Provocateurs? --sorry. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > larry, > > I know where provosts come from (and so do you). How about Provolones? > > dInIs > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 18 18:44:09 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:44:09 -0800 Subject: A resident of Provo? Message-ID: i suppose Provisionals (Provos, for short) would be too Provocative. arnold From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Tue Dec 18 18:47:14 2001 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:47:14 -0500 Subject: A resident of Provo? Message-ID: Would a guided tour of the city then be led by a Provodnik? --even sorry-er. "A. Maberry" wrote: > > Provocateurs? > --sorry. > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > > > larry, > > > > I know where provosts come from (and so do you). How about Provolones? > > > > dInIs > > From juengling_fritz at SMTPGATE.SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Tue Dec 18 19:04:01 2001 From: juengling_fritz at SMTPGATE.SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:04:01 -0800 Subject: A resident of Provo? Message-ID: How about "RM"? Fritz Juengling >>> David Bowie 12/18/01 09:06AM >>> I figure that *somebody* on this list may know this one. I am in need of the one-word term for a resident of Provo (the town in Utah where Brigham Young University is located). Since i work in Provo, i figured i could just informally ask some natives of Provo what they call themselves, but i've gotten conflicting answers from them. So far i've gotten (approximately in order of descending frequency): Provoan, Provoite, Provonian, Provan, Provoer. About half the respondents have given Provoan, but some of the others have explicitly and spontaneously told me that whatever it is, it's *not* Provoan. I've looked in a few places where i'd expect to find answers to this sort of thing, and i've come up blank. (I don't even *want* to try to know what residents of Skull Valley, Utah are called! :-] ) Is this just a situation where i get to roll my own? David, who uses Waldorfian for residents of Waldorf, Maryland -- David Bowie Department of Linguistics Assistant Professor Brigham Young University db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Dec 18 20:24:50 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:24:50 -0500 Subject: CUT A CHECK, ANYONE? Message-ID: Good to have a response; thanks David. However, for me, BDC and OED belong to a different world. Incidentally, is there a good formal definition of "cut a check" in your dictionaries or anywhere else? My own collection of dictionaries is not very comprehensive. Definitions are a necessary evil for me but the shorter the sweeter, like those given in the Cambridge International Dictionary of English, supposedly for "learners." Happy Holidays. TOM. Barnhart wrote: > > t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA,Net writes: > .... Personally, I'd like to see a dictionary that has more of good > >contemporary idiomatic English text and less of the abstract kind of > >definitions and which can be searched like Google. In > dictionary-making, > >text should increase, "definitions" should decrease. End of > self-serving > >lecture. > > > > Rather like you find in The Barnhart Dictionary Companion? > > End of my self-serving response. > > Happy Holidays to all, > David > > barnhart at highlands.com From carljweber at MSN.COM Tue Dec 18 20:50:31 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:50:31 -0600 Subject: Chicago Etymology Revisited Message-ID: --Barry Popik wrote < The American Name Society (post this on ANS-L!) has run articles on the name of "Chicago." I copied what the Chicago Historical Society has--there was a long study, but I don't know if it was Vogel (1958). On the "Windy City" front, I e-mailed my story to the Columbia Journalism Review. I had found the 1886 Chicago Tribune "Windy City" explanation while in the Columbia University Library. The "Windy City" myth involves a New York newspaper editor. Gerald Cohen (Comments on Etymology editor who published a "Windy City" article) graduated from Columbia. Columbia never wrote back. < "Windy City" because NY considered upstart Chi town full of hot air (i.e. blusterous) in vying for the Columbian Expo. That's a myth? ----------------- (I hope my FULL 'Chicago Etymology Revisited' post got through. It's over on Linguist, too, however, where it seems to wrap right. I haven't figured this stuff out yet -- I'm no poster boy poster boy.) I've been doing Chicago Etymology (as I familiarly call it) for five (yikes!) years, the last few, in a high gear. Mr. Lewis of the Chicago Historical Society has, for some time, been following and encouraging my work, as well as has the Alliance Francaise, Chicago -- where, as a result of what I've learned cross-discipline in my Chicago Etymology investigations, I direct a group in the French Colonial sequence of regional history. Investigating the source materials, I've made a number of discoveries and devised some new historical spins. I've been going over the linguistics, history, cartography, and the Indian and explorers material in painful detail, and believe that I've not only touched all the (available) bases, but've found and invented new ones sufficient to make Chicago Etymology a new ball game. Vogel (1958) and Swenson (1991) are the standing authorities on the etymology, however, neither had knowledge of linguistics (morphemes, phonemes, minimal pairs, etc.). Nor did they of the historical narratives; nor the cartography (and a picture's WATW). Accordingly, they were hardly rigorous, and contribute to making, I'm sorry to have to use the words, a bigger mess than already existed in this etymological provenance. I pretty well expended my summary load -- in 'Chicago Etymology Revisted' - of my last year-and-a-half of investigation. After these five years, I can't (gulp!) tell you what the etymology is; I can only, with reasonable confidence, tell you what it isn't. I DO have directions for further research, which I'm seriously contemplating. I invite comments and technical questions. Carl Jeffrey Weber From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Dec 18 21:11:49 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:11:49 EST Subject: Chicago Etymology Revisited Message-ID: Italian speakers often chuckle when they hear "Chicago." In Italian, the homonym for Chicago -- "ci cago" -- means "I crap there." Steve Boatti From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Dec 18 22:52:03 2001 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:52:03 -0600 Subject: Chicago Etymology Revisited In-Reply-To: <188.ac1eaa.29510b15@aol.com> Message-ID: I was told by a Portuguese gentleman that in Portuguese it sounds like "he crapped on himself" -- of course when spoken with Portuguese stress and vowels. DMLance > From: Ittaob at AOL.COM > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:11:49 EST > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Chicago Etymology Revisited > > Italian speakers often chuckle when they hear "Chicago." In Italian, the > homonym for Chicago -- "ci cago" -- means "I crap there." > > Steve Boatti > From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Tue Dec 18 22:54:05 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:54:05 -0500 Subject: the problem is is that... In-Reply-To: <20011217214742.ESMJ7926.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail .worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: I don't think I've heard that one, but the related "the reason being is ..." is consistently used by a former student from Dayton, as well as by a few others I've randomly taken note of. I'd appreciate comments by others on these two constructions! At 09:47 PM 12/17/01 +0000, you wrote: >Beverly, > >Are you also dealing with "the problem being is ..."? >That's the one I hear more often here in Central Indiana. > >Herb > > This is of interest to me, since I'm working on a long-promised paper on > > this and related constructions (and I will get it to you soon, > > Arnold!). Of course the double "is" is deliberate, and it's become > > extremely common (the other "is"s are totally unrelated and completely > > "normal" in context). > > _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From carljweber at MSN.COM Tue Dec 18 23:59:57 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:59:57 -0600 Subject: Chicago Etymology Revisited Message-ID: > Italian speakers often chuckle when they hear "Chicago." In Italian, the > homonym for Chicago -- "ci cago" -- means "I crap there." > > Steve Boatti --------------- >I was told by a Portuguese gentleman that in Portuguese it sounds like "he >crapped on himself" -- of course when spoken with Portuguese stress and >vowels. >DMLance --------------- Two things. First, #2: An essay I wrote DID pick up on the "-kaka" early in my investigation, the better to rule out an IndoEuropean cognate, should it arise, as it has. My paper was at the ready. As for #1: IF Chicago' name were from the Proto-Algonquian meaning "skunk" (and in the Miami/Illinois also, by extension, a particular sometimes-foul smelling onion/leek/garlic -- it would break down as URINE+small animal +stem extender+gender marker (Siebert's analysis). It would also be, as such, a homonym for La Salle's "Checagou," the original form. The Indian's word was an item of maledicta, the Indian pulling a linguistic hoax on Henri Joutel in late 1687. Le Boulanger in 1720 calling the Chicago-word, when used for the onions, "abusive." Carl Jeffrey Weber From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Dec 19 00:12:34 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:12:34 EST Subject: dord Message-ID: In a message dated 12/17/2001 10:21:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: > The Third International's chateaubriand sense 1, which, by some > strange coincidence also appeared in a dictionary established for > the express purpose of correcting W3! This sounds like an interesting story. Could you please explain further? - Jim Landau From wilsonw at NCTIMES.NET Wed Dec 19 02:34:35 2001 From: wilsonw at NCTIMES.NET (william c. wilson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:34:35 -0800 Subject: Daily basis Message-ID: Please, for the love of whatever you love, make the dreaded phrase: "Daily basis" go away forever, along with its ugly sisters, "regular basis and periodic basis". Thank you! From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 19 03:59:16 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:59:16 -0600 Subject: Southerns vs. southerners Message-ID: >I see that the earliest citations for Southerners, Southerns and Southrons >given in the Dict of Americanisms are all from 1827 or 1828. All of these are variations on a genuine ethnonym. 'Southron' is the one that interests me. I think it is a *deliberate* misspelling, and equally, a *deliberate* 'mispronunciation', when one considers the rules that govern r-dropping. There are many patriotic Southerners who are actually glad the South lost the Civil War, much in the same way many patriotic Scots are glad Bonnie Prince Charlie's rebellion failed. History would have been less bless�d. The South and North would have been mutually poorer, just as England and Scotland would have been mutually poorer. As the historians and re-enacters will tell you, the late unpleasentness was not so much the North winning as the South losing. Missionary Ridge is impossible to understand except in the personality of Braxton Bragg and Jeff Davis' perverse trust in him; the two together lost the War Between the States. Yeah, my ggg-grandpappy was a Southron who got himself killed (pretty much beside General Zollicoffer) for his country 19 Jan 1862. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Wed Dec 19 05:36:47 2001 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:36:47 -0600 Subject: Chicago Etymology Revisited Message-ID: carljweber wrote: > > > Italian speakers often chuckle when they hear "Chicago." In Italian, > > the homonym for Chicago -- "ci cago" -- means "I crap there." > > > > Steve Boatti > --------------- > > I was told by a Portuguese gentleman that in Portuguese it sounds > > like "he crapped on himself" -- of course when spoken with Portuguese stress > > and vowels. > >DMLance > --------------- In Mexico's southeast corner, the state of Chiapas, I heard the cognate Spanish pun on the last two syllables in a wild variety of jokes about my home. When folks tired of that one, they'd ask me if I'd ever considered moving to the big city: chica go sounds so diminutive compared with go grande. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Dec 19 13:01:48 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:01:48 -0500 Subject: Daily basis In-Reply-To: <3C1FFCBA.8D66C022@nctimes.net> Message-ID: Sorry Bill. Just can't do it; we love language too much to do away with parts of it. dInIs >Please, for the love of whatever you love, make the dreaded phrase: >"Daily basis" go away forever, along with its ugly sisters, "regular >basis and periodic basis". > >Thank you! -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 19 01:47:30 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:47:30 +0800 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... Message-ID: ...anyone else in the relevant dialect: We've spent some sporadic time discussing the construction extant in parts of the South and Appalachia variously referred to as the "Personal Dative" (Christian 1991), "Southern American Double Object" (Dannenberg & Webelhuth 2000), dialectal or bound pronominal (e.g. Sroda & Mishoe 1995), or ethical dative (various sources). This involves the appearance immediately after the main verb of an ordinary objective pronoun (rather than a reflexive) coreferring with the subject; generally a "real" object must also be present, and it must be quantified. The verb in question is not normally a ditransitive. Some sample cites (in each case, coreference between subject and "dative" is assumed): [musical exx.] I married me a pretty little wife I'm gonna buy me a shotgun, just as long as I am tall. I'm gonna catch me a freight train. Get you a copper kettle, get you a copper coil. [underlying 2d person subject] [non-musical exx.] He's gonna buy him a pickup. I seen me a mermaid once. She wants her some chitlins. Papa needs him some new boots. What I like is goats. I jus' like to look at me some goats. [title of Sroda & Mishoe 1995] Now the query: On the assumption that the pronoun in question is not a true object of the verb but a marker implicating that the action or event in question represents success/good fortune for the subject, I've been wondering if the following judgments (from this non-native speaker) are on- or off-base. (Feel free to replace these with clearer examples of your own.) (1) *She fed her some chitlins. (2)a. *She gave her a big raise. (vs. pandialectally OK: She gave herself a big raise.) b. She got her a big raise. (3)a. *I caught me a cold. [or maybe OK if I was trying to catch a cold?] b. I caught me a catfish. (4)a. He shot him two squirrels. b. *He (got drunk and) shot him two coonhounds (by mistake). (5)a. He got him a case of beer. b. *He got him a case of the clap. Thanks for your time & judgments. larry From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Dec 19 15:45:04 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:45:04 EST Subject: Shiver me timbers? Message-ID: >>> I am aware that this is probably not exactly in your line of work, but I am wondering where the phrase "Shiver me Timbers" came from. Is there anyone that could possibly tell me the answer to this question. Respectfully, Robert Ballard, Hyannis, Massachusetts<<<< If you know about this, please e-mail him directly: 3232 at MediaOne.Net as well as ADS-L. Thanks - Allan Metcalf From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Dec 19 15:50:19 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:50:19 -0600 Subject: Query: "Creek don't rise" Message-ID: I have received the following query about "the creek/Creek don't rise"; I think an ADS-L message once mentioned that the original reference was to the Creek Indians, but I somehow can't locate it in the archives. Might someone be able to verify the Indian reference? ---Gerald Cohen > What do you know about the origin of the expression "the Lord >willing and the creek (or creeks) don't rise." I had always assumed >that it referred to high water, but someone suggested that it refers >to the Creek Indian Nation in Alabama and Georgia before their >removal under Andrew Jackson's administration. I haven't found out >anything about it. Can you? Or do you know right off the bat? From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Dec 19 16:26:18 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:26:18 -0800 Subject: the problem is is that... In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20011218175052.03c4aef0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I had a friend who consistently said, "The point being is...." Interestingly, he lives in Yellow Springs (near Dayton). Peter --On Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:54 PM -0500 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > I don't think I've heard that one, but the related "the reason being is > ..." is consistently used by a former student from Dayton, as well as by a > few others I've randomly taken note of. I'd appreciate comments by others > on these two constructions! > > At 09:47 PM 12/17/01 +0000, you wrote: >> Beverly, >> >> Are you also dealing with "the problem being is ..."? >> That's the one I hear more often here in Central Indiana. >> >> Herb >> > This is of interest to me, since I'm working on a long-promised paper >> > on this and related constructions (and I will get it to you soon, >> > Arnold!). Of course the double "is" is deliberate, and it's become >> > extremely common (the other "is"s are totally unrelated and completely >> > "normal" in context). >> > > > > _____________________________________________ > Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics > Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 > Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 > http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 19 17:32:51 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:32:51 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Heavy Metal" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The earliest citation in the OED relating to the musical sense of "heavy metal" is from William Burroughs in 1964. Here is an earlier Burroughs usage I have found: 1962 William S. Burroughs _The Ticket That Exploded_ 39 The Other Half was only one aspect of Operation Rewrite--Heavy Metal addicts picketed the Rewrite Office, exploding in protest. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Wed Dec 19 17:49:46 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:49:46 -0500 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... Message-ID: I guess that's me... I think you may be onto something here. In general, I agree with the judgments, however, 1 and 2a are much less acceptable to me than 3a, 4b, and 5b. The verb seems to be the culprit, i.e. 1b "She ate her some chitlins" would be fine, even for someone for whom eating chitlins is not particularly indicative of good fortune. Ellen Ellen Johnson Assistant Professor of Linguistics Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing Berry College, Box 350 Mt. Berry, GA 30149 706-368-5638 http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ ejohnson at berry.edu -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 8:48 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... ...anyone else in the relevant dialect: We've spent some sporadic time discussing the construction extant in parts of the South and Appalachia variously referred to as the "Personal Dative" (Christian 1991), "Southern American Double Object" (Dannenberg & Webelhuth 2000), dialectal or bound pronominal (e.g. Sroda & Mishoe 1995), or ethical dative (various sources). This involves the appearance immediately after the main verb of an ordinary objective pronoun (rather than a reflexive) coreferring with the subject; generally a "real" object must also be present, and it must be quantified. The verb in question is not normally a ditransitive. Some sample cites (in each case, coreference between subject and "dative" is assumed): [musical exx.] I married me a pretty little wife I'm gonna buy me a shotgun, just as long as I am tall. I'm gonna catch me a freight train. Get you a copper kettle, get you a copper coil. [underlying 2d person subject] [non-musical exx.] He's gonna buy him a pickup. I seen me a mermaid once. She wants her some chitlins. Papa needs him some new boots. What I like is goats. I jus' like to look at me some goats. [title of Sroda & Mishoe 1995] Now the query: On the assumption that the pronoun in question is not a true object of the verb but a marker implicating that the action or event in question represents success/good fortune for the subject, I've been wondering if the following judgments (from this non-native speaker) are on- or off-base. (Feel free to replace these with clearer examples of your own.) (1) *She fed her some chitlins. (2)a. *She gave her a big raise. (vs. pandialectally OK: She gave herself a big raise.) b. She got her a big raise. (3)a. *I caught me a cold. [or maybe OK if I was trying to catch a cold?] b. I caught me a catfish. (4)a. He shot him two squirrels. b. *He (got drunk and) shot him two coonhounds (by mistake). (5)a. He got him a case of beer. b. *He got him a case of the clap. Thanks for your time & judgments. larry From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Dec 19 17:57:59 2001 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:57:59 -0600 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All these starred items could (as you imply in 3a) be possible if surrounded by verbal context that would set them up as 'her' being equivalent to 'herself'. Even so, the result is irony, particularly in 5b. The syntactic violation marks the irony even without suprasegmental or kinesic signaling. The culture would call for deadpan kinesics for irony anyway. DMLance > (1) *She fed her some chitlins. > > (2)a. *She gave her a big raise. (vs. pandialectally OK: She gave > herself a big raise.) > b. She got her a big raise. > > (3)a. *I caught me a cold. [or maybe OK if I was trying to catch a cold?] > b. I caught me a catfish. > > (4)a. He shot him two squirrels. > b. *He (got drunk and) shot him two coonhounds (by mistake). > > (5)a. He got him a case of beer. > b. *He got him a case of the clap. > From: Laurence Horn > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:47:30 +0800 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... > > ...anyone else in the relevant dialect: > > We've spent some sporadic time discussing the construction extant in > parts of the South and Appalachia variously referred to as the > "Personal Dative" (Christian 1991), "Southern American Double Object" > (Dannenberg & Webelhuth 2000), dialectal or bound pronominal (e.g. > Sroda & Mishoe 1995), or ethical dative (various sources). This > involves the appearance immediately after the main verb of an > ordinary objective pronoun (rather than a reflexive) coreferring with > the subject; generally a "real" object must also be present, and it > must be quantified. The verb in question is not normally a > ditransitive. Some sample cites (in each case, coreference between > subject and "dative" is assumed): > > [musical exx.] > I married me a pretty little wife > I'm gonna buy me a shotgun, just as long as I am tall. > I'm gonna catch me a freight train. > Get you a copper kettle, get you a copper coil. [underlying 2d person > subject] > > [non-musical exx.] > He's gonna buy him a pickup. > I seen me a mermaid once. > She wants her some chitlins. > Papa needs him some new boots. > What I like is goats. I jus' like to look at me some goats. [title > of Sroda & Mishoe 1995] > > Now the query: > > On the assumption that the pronoun in question is not a true object > of the verb but a marker implicating that the action or event in > question represents success/good fortune for the subject, I've been > wondering if the following judgments (from this non-native speaker) > are on- or off-base. (Feel free to replace these with clearer > examples of your own.) > > (1) *She fed her some chitlins. > > (2)a. *She gave her a big raise. (vs. pandialectally OK: She gave > herself a big raise.) > b. She got her a big raise. > > (3)a. *I caught me a cold. [or maybe OK if I was trying to catch a cold?] > b. I caught me a catfish. > > (4)a. He shot him two squirrels. > b. *He (got drunk and) shot him two coonhounds (by mistake). > > (5)a. He got him a case of beer. > b. *He got him a case of the clap. > > Thanks for your time & judgments. > > larry > From grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET Wed Dec 19 17:51:20 2001 From: grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:51:20 -0500 Subject: BBC's Words of 2001 Message-ID: The BBC has a feature called "e-cyclopedia: The words behind the headlines." "Many of the defining moments of 2001 spawned their own words and phrases. At year's end, we take stock of these additions to the news lexicon." http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1717000/1717136.stm From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Dec 19 18:05:23 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:05:23 EST Subject: Words of the Year voting Message-ID: With Webmaster Grand Barrett's assistance, we now have an advance announcement of the Words of the Year vote on the ADS website: http://www.americandialect.org/ It includes a list of candidates proposed by Wayne Glowka. Y'all come and help with the vote! - Allan Metcalf From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 19 05:10:57 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:10:57 +0800 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Re my: (1) *She fed her some chitlins. (2)a. *She gave her a big raise. (vs. pandialectally OK: She gave herself a big raise.) b. She got her a big raise. (3)a. *I caught me a cold. [or maybe OK if I was trying to catch a cold?] b. I caught me a catfish. (4)a. He shot him two squirrels. b. *He (got drunk and) shot him two coonhounds (by mistake). (5)a. He got him a case of beer. b. *He got him a case of the clap. At 12:49 PM -0500 12/19/01, Ellen Johnson wrote: >I guess that's me... > >I think you may be onto something here. In general, I agree with the >judgments, however, 1 and 2a are much less acceptable to me than 3a, 4b, >and 5b. Great; the prediction would be that the former two are out on grammatical grounds, while the latter ones are out pragmatically. >The verb seems to be the culprit, i.e. 1b "She ate her some >chitlins" would be fine, even for someone for whom eating chitlins is >not particularly indicative of good fortune. well, in this case, it would be successful fulfillment of an intention rather than necessarily good fortune. The paraphrase for non-Southern speakers might be "managed to..." The difference between "feed" and "eat" would be that "feed" must have an (indirect) object (*I fed some chitlins), and the "me" here doesn't count as an object. and At 11:57 AM -0600 12/19/01, Donald M Lance wrote: >All these starred items could (as you imply in 3a) be possible if surrounded >by verbal context that would set them up as 'her' being equivalent to >'herself'. Even so, the result is irony, particularly in 5b. The syntactic >violation marks the irony even without suprasegmental or kinesic signaling. >The culture would call for deadpan kinesics for irony anyway. > Right. Again, "manage to" would work the same way: "He managed to get a case of the clap (to fall down the stairs, to get himself shot,...)" implies that he was trying to do so. Thanks to both of you for the help. larry From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Dec 19 20:26:46 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:26:46 -0500 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm mostly in agreement so far, but "managed to": does not for me imply intending or trying. Sentences like "Well, you managed to go get yourself in trouble again" imply that you have been inattentive, imprudent, etc...., but not that you set out to get yourself in trouble. Maybe originally ironic, but I doubt if that obtains now in this construction. My only other small quibble is with Don;s suggestion that the (only?) accompanying kinetic-physiological stance for ironic delivery in this vareety is deadpan (though I don't doubt its frequency). dInIs >Re my: > >(1) *She fed her some chitlins. > >(2)a. *She gave her a big raise. (vs. pandialectally OK: She gave >herself a big raise.) > b. She got her a big raise. > >(3)a. *I caught me a cold. [or maybe OK if I was trying to catch a cold?] > b. I caught me a catfish. > >(4)a. He shot him two squirrels. > b. *He (got drunk and) shot him two coonhounds (by mistake). > >(5)a. He got him a case of beer. > b. *He got him a case of the clap. > > >At 12:49 PM -0500 12/19/01, Ellen Johnson wrote: >>I guess that's me... >> >>I think you may be onto something here. In general, I agree with the >>judgments, however, 1 and 2a are much less acceptable to me than 3a, 4b, >>and 5b. > >Great; the prediction would be that the former two are out on >grammatical grounds, while the latter ones are out pragmatically. > >>The verb seems to be the culprit, i.e. 1b "She ate her some >>chitlins" would be fine, even for someone for whom eating chitlins is >>not particularly indicative of good fortune. > >well, in this case, it would be successful fulfillment of an >intention rather than necessarily good fortune. The paraphrase for >non-Southern speakers might be "managed to..." The difference >between "feed" and "eat" would be that "feed" must have an (indirect) >object (*I fed some chitlins), and the "me" here doesn't count as an >object. > >and >At 11:57 AM -0600 12/19/01, Donald M Lance wrote: >>All these starred items could (as you imply in 3a) be possible if surrounded >>by verbal context that would set them up as 'her' being equivalent to >>'herself'. Even so, the result is irony, particularly in 5b. The syntactic >>violation marks the irony even without suprasegmental or kinesic signaling. >>The culture would call for deadpan kinesics for irony anyway. >> >Right. Again, "manage to" would work the same way: "He managed to >get a case of the clap (to fall down the stairs, to get himself >shot,...)" implies that he was trying to do so. > >Thanks to both of you for the help. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From lynnhatt at UIC.EDU Wed Dec 19 20:13:54 2001 From: lynnhatt at UIC.EDU (Lynn C. Hattendorf Westney) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:13:54 -0600 Subject: I found this citation re Chicago Names but not from NAMES--just fyi Message-ID: TI: Title Transferred and Figurative Use of the American Place Name Chicago in English, French, Georgian, Russian, and Spanish; and of the American Place Name Manhattan in German and Spanish AU: Author Gold, David L SO: Source Beitrage zur Namenforschung, 2000, 35, 3, 319-324 IS: ISSN 0005-8114 CD: CODEN BNAMF9 AB: Abstract Because Chicago gained notoriety during the 1920s, 1930s, & 1940s as a crime-ridden city & because Manhattan is known for its tall buildings, the names of these two cities have acquired figurative meanings not only in English but also in several of the world's languages. This note discusses the figurative use of those names. 11 References. Adapted from the source document LA: Language English PY: Publication Year 2000 PT: Publication Type Abstract of Journal Article (aja) CP: Country of Publication Germany, Republic of DE: Descriptors *Toponymy (90550); *United States of America (92750); *Connotation (14800); *Rhetorical Figures (73400); English (21900); French (25750); Caucasian Languages (11200); German (27700); Spanish (81800); Russian (74450) CL: Classification 5119 descriptive linguistics; onomastics UD: Update 200104 AN: Accession Number 200103654 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 19 07:46:45 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:46:45 +0800 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:26 PM -0500 12/19/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >I'm mostly in agreement so far, but "managed to": does not for me >imply intending or trying. Sentences like "Well, you managed to go >get yourself in trouble again" imply that you have been inattentive, >imprudent, etc...., but not that you set out to get yourself in >trouble. Maybe originally ironic, but I doubt if that obtains now in >this construction. > For me, the ironic sense is still palpable in those cases. I could live with "succeeded in Ving" rather than "managed to V" if the irony hasn't frozen with the former for you. For me, "He managed to get the clap" and "He succeeded in getting the clap" are both pretty ironic. larry From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Thu Dec 20 00:07:22 2001 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:07:22 EST Subject: Lexicography Discussion Group Meeting at MLA Message-ID: There will not be a session sponsored by the MLA Lexicography Discussion Group at the MLA convention this year. The Discussion Group will hold a business meeting, however, and all interested MLA members are urged to attend. The meeting will be held on Friday, 28 December 2001, from 2:00-3:00, in the Ponchartrain Ballroom D, in the Sheraton. Besides discussing next year's convention program, we need to elect two members to the Discussion Group's executive committee -- if you are interested in serving lexicography in this capacity, please let me know in advance of the meeting. I hope to see all members of this list who are attending the MLA convention at the meeting. Sincerely Yours, Michael Adams MAdams1448 at aol.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Dec 20 00:18:59 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:18:59 -0500 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, I understand your feel for these, but I am sure that for me succeeded is unquestionably ironic but managed is not. dInIs >At 3:26 PM -0500 12/19/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>I'm mostly in agreement so far, but "managed to": does not for me >>imply intending or trying. Sentences like "Well, you managed to go >>get yourself in trouble again" imply that you have been inattentive, >>imprudent, etc...., but not that you set out to get yourself in >>trouble. Maybe originally ironic, but I doubt if that obtains now in >>this construction. >> >For me, the ironic sense is still palpable in those cases. I could >live with "succeeded in Ving" rather than "managed to V" if the irony >hasn't frozen with the former for you. For me, "He managed to get >the clap" and "He succeeded in getting the clap" are both pretty >ironic. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 20 02:09:23 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:09:23 -0800 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... Message-ID: larry horn: >At 3:26 PM -0500 12/19/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>I'm mostly in agreement so far, but "managed to": does not for me >>imply intending or trying. Sentences like "Well, you managed to go >>get yourself in trouble again" imply that you have been >>inattentive, imprudent, etc...., but not that you set out to get >>yourself in trouble. Maybe originally ironic, but I doubt if that >>obtains now in this construction. >For me, the ironic sense is still palpable in those cases. I could >live with "succeeded in Ving" rather than "managed to V" if the >irony hasn't frozen with the former for you. For me, "He managed to >get the clap" and "He succeeded in getting the clap" are both pretty >ironic. i'm entirely with dInIs here. i have literal SUCCEED and MANAGE, which involve effortful intentionally goal-directed activity, and i have ironic uses of these, in which the expected effort and/or intention are missing from the actual activity, but i also have uses of these verbs in which effort and intention are bleached away, leaving only the end-state, plus an affective judgment, of surprise/ unexpectedness/dismay/marveling, on the part of the speaker. (this would then be yet another shift from an objective to a subjective stance in the meaning of lexical items. as is usual in such shifts, the newer subjective meaning coexists with the older objective meaning and with an intermediate, deliberately displaced or extended, use, irony or exaggeration or understatement or whatever.) i have an old classroom war story, about an introductory linguistics student who understood the difference between nouns and adjectives, but reversed the words NOUN and ADJECTIVE in referring to the denotata in question. i *could* have told the story more or less like this, but instead, what i always say is something along the lines that this student "(somehow) managed to get the category names exactly reversed". i don't thing this is ironic. it certainly expresses astonishment on my part; i think this is the only thing it expresses that goes beyond the plainer alternative "(somehow) got the category names exactly reversed". (if i think about what i'm saying, i can see that my usage probably originated in irony - but all i'm conveying is straightforward astonishment.) i could contextualize the clap examples similarly: joey's had a terrible year: his dog died on him, he failed ling 100, and somehow he managed to get the clap / succeeded in getting the clap. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From carljweber at MSN.COM Thu Dec 20 02:41:40 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:41:40 -0600 Subject: "Windy City" & "Skunked" Message-ID: Barry Popik wrote: < Yes, it's a myth! "Windy City" dates much earlier than the battle for the 1893 World's Fair, which took place in 1889-1890. Even a simple check of the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS (published in Chicago 50 years ago) shows an 1887 citation. < Affirmative. The 1887 citation: "A gauzy story of an alleged anarchist dynamite plot from the Windy City." 1873: wind work - talk discussion, planning, etc., that precedes work on an undertaking. 1873: "The wind-work all done, and grading will commence about September first." Chicago was also "Wind Town." 1903: "The majority of Wind Town's baseball writers doubted the possibility of peace when the project was broached." A little extra, also picked up in the Dictionary, is that "they were Chicagoed," in 1891, was equivalent to "they were skunked." Our great baseball team at the time, hardly ever losing, gave "Chicago," and it meant "a defeat in which the losing team does not score." The idea in the popular mind that "Chicago" meant "skunk" is transparent. I'm surprised nobody's come up with: skunk >wind> Chicago. Carl Jeffrey Weber From carljweber at MSN.COM Thu Dec 20 02:57:49 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:57:49 -0600 Subject: I found this citation re Chicago Names but not from NAMES--just Message-ID: Thanks. I'll see how I might use the reference. The few times I had been in Europe in the 70s and 80s, Chicago was "ah, boom boom, Al Capone" (always with the accompanying hand gesture). Sometimes "ah, Frank Sinatra." In recent years I'm told it's "ah, Michael Jordon." From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Dec 20 04:08:40 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:08:40 -0800 Subject: Daily basis Message-ID: William: > Please, for the love of whatever you love, make the dreaded phrase: > "Daily basis" go away forever, along with its ugly sisters, "regular > basis and periodic basis". You must be a prescriptivist! Anne G From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Dec 20 15:55:23 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:55:23 -0500 Subject: Chateaubriand the pocket steak (and the pork dish) Message-ID: Jim Landau asked for Ward Gilman's story behind the Third International's flub-up of sense 1 of _chateaubriand_ "a steak in which a pocket is cut and stuffed with shallots, chives, cayenne, and salt. According to Gil, the W3 editor for food terms took sense 1 from a reference book where the author explained what the original dish was--the stuffed steak. But the word never signified that concoction in English--it was a confusion of thing and word by the editor. Michael Belanger, the biography editor here, recalls another funny slip-up involving chateaubriand -- though this one, fortunately, never made it into any dictionary. He once came across in the files a cite with the heading "chateaubriand pork chops." This monstrosity came about because the cite read something like "options include chateaubriand steak or pork chops." The marker interpreted "chateaubriand " as modifying both "steak" and "pork chops" and so took off cites for both versions of this strange dish. So you see, it really isn't necessary to insert deliberate mistakes in order to catch plagiarists. The inadvertant ones are sufficient to do the job, if anyone had the time or the inclination to look for these things. Joanne From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 20 15:40:55 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:40:55 -0500 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >We've spent some sporadic time discussing the construction extant in >parts of the South and Appalachia variously referred to as the >"Personal Dative" (Christian 1991), "Southern American Double Object" >(Dannenberg & Webelhuth 2000), dialectal or bound pronominal (e.g. >Sroda & Mishoe 1995), or ethical dative (various sources). This >involves the appearance immediately after the main verb of an >ordinary objective pronoun (rather than a reflexive) coreferring with >the subject; generally a "real" object must also be present, and it >must be quantified. The verb in question is not normally a >ditransitive. Some sample cites (in each case, coreference between >subject and "dative" is assumed): I'm no Southron, and I'm only an Appalachian by immigration, but to some extent these expressions are familiar to me from childhood. It is my feeling that the pronoun in question is a reflexive indirect object or dative, more or less equivalent to "[for [the sake of]] ...self". A few of Larry's more outlandish examples do not seem acceptable to me. The concept of "success" is often implicit in "to do ... for oneself": at least I think purposefulness is generally implicit. >I married me a pretty little wife = "I married for myself a ..." [borderline, maybe. Here "married" must have the flavor of "[purposefully/successfully] acquired". I would not accept "I joined me the NRA/ADS/Taliban/Yale faculty/etc." nor "I have to marry me whichever girl Rev. Moon chooses".] >I'm gonna buy me a shotgun, just as long as I am tall. = "I'm going to buy [for] myself a ..." >I'm gonna catch me a freight train. = "I'm going to catch [for] myself a ..." >Get you a copper kettle, get you a copper coil. [underlying 2d person >subject] = "Get yourself a ..." >He's gonna buy him a pickup. = "He's going to buy himself a ..." >I seen me a mermaid once. = "I saw for myself a ..." [a borderline example ... but I wouldn't have too much trouble with something like "I've had me some fun, I've raised me some children, I've seen me the Taj Mahal, ... [I've lived a full life, I've fulfilled my ambitions]."] >She wants her some chitlins. No good. >Papa needs him some new boots. = "Papa needs for himself some ..." [borderline] >What I like is goats. I jus' like to look at me some goats. [title of >Sroda & Mishoe 1995] No good. There are wrong/poor/stupid ways to use nonstandard constructions, just as for standard ones, IMHO. >On the assumption that the pronoun in question is not a true object >of the verb but a marker implicating that the action or event in >question represents success/good fortune for the subject, I've been >wondering if the following judgments (from this non-native speaker) >are on- or off-base. (Feel free to replace these with clearer >examples of your own.) > >(1) *She fed her some chitlins. > >(2)a. *She gave her a big raise. (vs. pandialectally OK: She gave >herself a big raise.) > b. She got her a big raise. > >(3)a. *I caught me a cold. [or maybe OK if I was trying to catch a cold?] > b. I caught me a catfish. > >(4)a. He shot him two squirrels. > b. *He (got drunk and) shot him two coonhounds (by mistake). > >(5)a. He got him a case of beer. > b. *He got him a case of the clap. I agree with these judgements. But I'm not convinced that the pronoun in question is clearly other than an indirect object of the verb. I think purposefulness/accomplishment is implied; e.g., "I found me a good opportunity" but not "I encountered me a good opportunity", "I inspected me some goats" but not "I noticed me some goats". It seems to me that "buy me" etc. is parallel to "buy you", "buy him", etc., in many cases, so virtually standard except for lack of reflexive marking ("me" for "myself" etc.). -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 20 16:26:25 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:26:25 EST Subject: Waldorf Salad (1895) Message-ID: WALDORF SALAD I've been going through TABLE TALK magazine (1887-1920). The NYPL has it hidden away in the Annex. It's in poor shape, and they're debating whether I'm allowed to copy even the index. I checked the online OED for TABLE TALK and AMERICAN COOKERY--the classic American cookery publications from Philadelphia and Boston. OED hasn't a single citation from either magazine! M-W has 1902 for "Waldorf Salad" and OED has 1911. It's in Oscar of the Waldorf's 1896 tome, but we'll do better. From TABLE TALK, volume 10, January 1895, pg. 6, col. 2: _Inquiry No. 3069._ F. R. L., Watertown, N. Y., writes: "Can you give me a recipe for salad containing apples and celery?" _Answer._ WALDORF SALAD. This salad is a very simple one, and has become so popular merely through its name and use at the Waldorf in New York. It is composed of equal quantities of celery and chopped, raw, sour apples, dressed with mayonnaise dressing. At that hotel it is seldom served as a course, being preferred with game, and is in reality what is called a game salad. It is a favorite custom, more often adopted at "stag dinners" than elsewhere, to serve the salad with the game instead of as a separate course. From TABLE TALK, volume 11, January 1896, pg. 12, col. 1: _Inquiry No. 3547._ A. M. B. of Leadville, Col. writes: "I would be grateful if you will give me the recipe once more for Waldorf salad, as I cannot find my copy of TABLE TALK containing it, and we all thought it very nice indeed." _Answer._ WALDORF SALAD. This salad is composed of equal parts of celery and chopped, raw, sour apples, dressed with the mayonnaise dressing. At the hotel which gives it its name it is seldom served as a course, being preferred with game and is, in reality, what is called a game salad. THis custom of serving salad with game is more often adopted for "stag dinners" than elsewhere. -------------------------------------------------------- SHTUPPELLED MATSOS From TABLE TALK, February 1895, pg. 51, col. 1: _Inquiry No. 3138._ Mrs. D. R., St. Paul, Minn, writes: "Will you kindly explain what matsos are and where made?" _Answer._ MATSOS. (...)(Col. 2--ed.) ...the inspector (or "Shomer" as he is called).... The "matso"...is placed upon a large plate, "docked" all over with small holes (or, as the workmen themselves call it, "Shtuppelled,") and immediately "skived" or cut into cakes of the desired size. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Dec 20 18:25:48 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:25:48 -0500 Subject: another touchstone Message-ID: Here is a dictionary to be found in better libraries everywhere. If your library of choice does not have it, you may be sure that you are patronizing an inferior institution. Patrick Labriola & Jurgen Schiffer. American Sports: Baseball – Football – Basketball: Worterbuch grosser amerikanischer Sportarten. Dictionary of Major American Sports. Englisch – Deutsch, mit einem deutschsprachigen Index. Aachen: Meyer & Meyer Verlag, 1997. 423 pp. The vocabulary or each sport is given separately. I have never studied German, but have been handling German books for 30 years or so, and have as a result attained a sort of "hum a few bars and I will fake it" mastery of the tongue. On this basis, I will say that this seems to be a pretty capable piece of work. I notice the entry "to get a runner over" = einer Laufer mit einem Bunt oder Sacrifice Bunt vorrucken lassen. There isn't an entry under "to move the runner over" and the definition doesn't consider moving the runner over by hitting a grounder to a fielder on the right side of the infield. (When this is accomplished, it is obligitory to say of the batter: "He did his job.") On the other hand, "to get all of the ball" = alles aus dem Ball herausholen (siehe "to slam the ball") and "to get good wood on the ball" = dem Ball gutes Holz geben (siehe "to slam the ball") seem neatly phrased. From the same page I find "to get under the ball = unter den Ball kommen (1. beim Schlag den unteren Teil des Balls treffen und dadurch einem Flugball verursachen; 2. sich in eine Position bringen, um einem hohen Flugball su fangen) very properly makes a distinction between the two senses of that phrase. "Shoestring catch" is listed as both a baseball and a football term. As a baseball term it is defined as: Schnursenkelfang (geschlagener Ball, der unmittelbar vor der Bodenberuhrung gefangen wird). As a football term: "Ballannahme in Schnursenkelfang (Pass, der unmittelbar vor der Bodenberuhrung gefangen wird). "Trash talking" is given as exclusively a basketball term: "den Gegner provozieren, indem man ihn verbal attackiert." If this had come into the library here a few weeks earlier, I could have posted this announcement in time for your holiday shopping. Sorry about that. Larry Horn, I believe it was, has commented upon my very strict standards for judging whether a library should be considered a "better" library or an inferior one. I accept this criticism, but if we do not have high standards, how can we have progress? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Dec 20 18:49:11 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:49:11 -0600 Subject: Barry Popik's work on "the Windy City" Message-ID: I appreciate Carl J. Weber's interest in etymology and hereby extend him a formal welcome to our group. When I officially return to work in two weeks, I look forward to examining his messages on "Chicago" et al. Meanwhile, one clarification is in order. Barry Popik has already unearthed most or all early attestations of "Windy City" in reference to Chicago and posted them to ADS-L (available in the archives). A few additional ones are contained in hard-copy material he sent to me in pre-ADS-L days. I have compiled all that material in an article to appear in the December 2001 issue of _Comments on Etymology_ (to be mailed out in early January 2002). And since the material all comes from Barry, I have listed him as the author. Any journalists who write on the "Windy City" might be interested in consulting this article first; they need only ask, and it will be sent with my compliments. ---Gerald Cohen At 8:41 PM -0600 12/19/01, carljweber wrote: >From: carljweber >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: "Windy City" & "Skunked" >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:41:40 -0600 > >Barry Popik wrote: >< > Yes, it's a myth! "Windy City" dates much earlier than the battle >for the 1893 World's Fair, which took place in 1889-1890. Even a >simple check of the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS (published in Chicago >50 years ago) shows an 1887 citation. > < > > Affirmative. >The 1887 citation: "A gauzy story of an alleged anarchist dynamite >plot from the Windy City." > >1873: wind work - talk discussion, planning, etc., that precedes work >on an undertaking. >1873: "The wind-work all done, and grading will commence about >September first." > >Chicago was also "Wind Town." 1903: "The majority of Wind Town's >baseball writers doubted the possibility of peace when the project was >broached." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 20 18:57:09 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:57:09 EST Subject: Black Russian (1964) Message-ID: "A Black Russian! Get it? Heh-heh-heh." --Eddie Murphy, 48 HRS. "Black Russian" is in neither OED nor Merriam-Webster. If it's not fast-tracked ("Fuck-me" was fast-tracked. Go figure), OED will probably add it in about 12 years. From CUE, 9 May 1964, pg. 36, col. 1: _TIDBITS:_ Visitors to the Fair--and New Yorkers, too--are talking about a new drink: The Black Russian. If you want to try it at home, mix one part Kahlua, two parts vodka, stir and serve. --VADNA DIBBLE From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 20 06:03:40 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:03:40 +0800 Subject: Waldorf Salad (1895) In-Reply-To: <14f.60a46cf.29536b31@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:26 AM -0500 12/20/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > _Answer._ > MATSOS. > (...)(Col. 2--ed.) > ...the inspector (or "Shomer" as he is called).... > The "matso"...is placed upon a large plate, "docked" all over >with small holes (or, as the workmen themselves call it, >"Shtuppelled,") and immediately "skived" or cut into cakes of the >desired size. Now THERE's a job: a matzo-shtuppeller. I guess if there are all those slurs derived for words for the male organ (shmucks, dorks, putzes,...), there might as well be a verbal derivation from the corresponding verb (to shtup), although one doesn't necessarily conceive of the relevant action as hole-making, exactly. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 20 06:07:33 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:07:33 +0800 Subject: another touchstone In-Reply-To: <260bd525cc44.25cc44260bd5@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: At 1:25 PM -0500 12/20/01, George Thompson wrote: >Here is a dictionary to be found in better libraries everywhere. If >your library of choice does not have it, you may be sure that you are >patronizing an inferior institution. > >Patrick Labriola & Jurgen Schiffer. American Sports: Baseball – >Football – Basketball: Worterbuch grosser amerikanischer Sportarten. >Dictionary of Major American Sports. Englisch – Deutsch, mit einem >deutschsprachigen Index. Aachen: Meyer & Meyer Verlag, 1997. 423 pp. > >... >Larry Horn, I believe it was, has commented upon my very strict >standards for judging whether a library should be considered a "better" >library or an inferior one. I accept this criticism, but if we do not >have high standards, how can we have progress? > Oops, Yale flunks again. larry From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Dec 20 21:09:10 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:09:10 -0800 Subject: another touchstone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 1:25 PM -0500 12/20/01, George Thompson wrote: > >Here is a dictionary to be found in better libraries everywhere. If > >your library of choice does not have it, you may be sure that you are > >patronizing an inferior institution. > > > Oops, Yale flunks again. > > larry As far as I can tell, everybody in the US flunks except New York Public Library! allen maberry at u.washington.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Dec 20 21:34:43 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:34:43 -0500 Subject: Waldorf Salad (1895) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, Not so. At least not universally,. In Caribbean Spanish several jokes, metaphors, and slang items hinge on "hole-poking" for "shtupping." (A Cuban once found me very dense for not getting the analogy with "ventilate" in exactly this sense, although, in my defense, it also took imagining the penis as the number 7, which I still have some difficulty with.) dInIs >At 11:26 AM -0500 12/20/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >> _Answer._ >> MATSOS. >> (...)(Col. 2--ed.) >> ...the inspector (or "Shomer" as he is called).... >> The "matso"...is placed upon a large plate, "docked" all over >>with small holes (or, as the workmen themselves call it, >>"Shtuppelled,") and immediately "skived" or cut into cakes of the >>desired size. > >Now THERE's a job: a matzo-shtuppeller. I guess if there are all >those slurs derived for words for the male organ (shmucks, dorks, >putzes,...), there might as well be a verbal derivation from the >corresponding verb (to shtup), although one doesn't necessarily >conceive of the relevant action as hole-making, exactly. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 20 08:48:30 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:48:30 +0800 Subject: Waldorf Salad (1895) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:34 PM -0500 12/20/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >larry, > >Not so. At least not universally,. In Caribbean Spanish several >jokes, metaphors, and slang items hinge on "hole-poking" for >"shtupping." OK, you've convinced me. Especially since we're concerned with "shtuppeling" rather than "shtupping", and I assume the former involves lots of mini-shtup-events. >(A Cuban once found me very dense for not getting the >analogy with "ventilate" in exactly this sense, although, in my >defense, it also took imagining the penis as the number 7, which I >still have some difficulty with.) > >dInIs Especially if constructed with that perpendicular line half-way through (the number 7, that is, not the penis). If anything, the Euro-style "7" would have to denote "No penis allowed". L From carljweber at MSN.COM Thu Dec 20 22:25:39 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:25:39 -0600 Subject: "Checagou" is Miami/Illinos Message-ID: (edited by CJW) John E. McLaughlin wrote: > Mr. Weber, I've been reading your comments on the etymology of "Chicago" with mild interest for a while. Even with the earliest attestation, "Checagou", it's phonetic similarity to the Miami/Illinois word for "skunk" is way beyond coincidence. > (I'll take any interest I can get.) No way. Similarities breed homonyms. Homonyms breed convenient etymologies. La Salle's word "Checagou," the form for nearly the first TWO DECADES, was not simply the "earliest attestation." Note it is without the "-a" on the end, and accordingly, it could not be Miami/Illinois for "skunk." The "-a" gender marker on the ends of words of some of the related Algonquian languages was "inaudible to Europeans"; and in others the "-a" was even morphemically dropped -- but these do not apply in Miami/Illinois. When the word began to be used by the Jesuits - missionaries to the Miami/Illinois -- after about 1700, they rendered it into the Miami/Illinois dialect as basically "Chicagoua" - with "Chi-" and "-a." The Indians told Joutel in late 1687 the area was named after the "onions" (NOT "skunk"). ("Skunk" -- from which the "onion" synonym derived -- was the transparent meaning of the word to the Miami/Illinois. The onions, when in season, had a foul smell). The 1720 dictionary of Le Boulanger has "abusive" next to the Chicago word as used for "onions." The Indians were funnin' with Joutel. The "skunk" etymology doesn't come up until the Tanner narrative of the 1830s, 150 years after the place name's first use by La Salle. > I also think that your quibbling over "e" or "i" in the first syllable is quite needless since the European ears that heard the Native words were usually untrained to hear a consistent and reliable distinction between front lax vowels. > (This is further compounded by the natives' apparently having been untrained in elocution). This is the common argument. I've come across it numerous times. Algonquianist scholars do NOT quibble about this Chi-/Che-, however, in this context. The "Che-" form, found for nearly the first two decades of the word's use in narratives and on maps, is not quibble. The problem is that there are many examples with "Che-" and "Chi-," in the entire span of literature into the English period, but no one ever tried to sort it out. I took all the narratives, and all the maps in the opening decades of use, pulled the forms, put them in chronology, and allowed for the historical cases that might have been spurious. Remember too, that there were bi-lingual children running around to help their dads' untrained ears. > .Almost all of the linguists keep referring them back to me as a Comanche specialist. They just don't like "worm eaters" as the meaning of their beloved town's name. Sometimes a horse is just a horse. LaSalle's "Checagou" and your very good explanation of the "locative n" as a misprint (a Comanche treaty from 1786 has a name, Paruaquibitiste, in the handwritten copy that became Parnaquibitiste in the printed version) both point to a solid etymology of "skunk" in Miami/Illinois. > What I debunk is not just the skunk. The classical "skunk/onion" etymology is actually "place of the skunk/onion" -- going back to H.R. Schoolcraft. It's wrong, not just for the 1714 misprint you mention, but also the three reasons I mention in "Chicago Etymology Revisited": 1. it was not from a local language, 2. the area to which the name applied in the earliest descriptions and on the maps was much larger than the comparatively small area up near lake Michigan where grew the aliums that stunk a few months a year, and 3. the Indians' use of the word was "abuse," a linguistic fraud on the white eyes. Mine is a preponderance of evidence argument - truth by a thousand quibbles. Carl Jeffrey Weber From carljweber at MSN.COM Thu Dec 20 22:39:49 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:39:49 -0600 Subject: Barry Popik's work on "the Windy City" Message-ID: Gerald Cohen I privately thanked Barry Popik for the lead and information. When my work is presented to our city's civic representatives soon, I intend to present his work as good evidence for how etymologies of placenames frequently get historically short shafted. Carl Jeffrey Weber Chicago From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Dec 20 22:45:37 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:45:37 EST Subject: A resident of Provo? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/18/2001 12:10:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, db.list at PMPKN.NET writes: > I am in need of the one-word term for a resident of Provo (the town in Utah > where Brigham Young University is located). > David Bowie Department of Linguistics > Assistant Professor Brigham Young University > db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx Somebody who lives in Provo and teaches at Brigham Young University is a "prof". Somebody who lives in Provo and works at the Bonneville Salt Flats has a job "prov-ing" automobiles. An attorney who lives in Provo performs his law work pro vono publico. Career people who live in Provo and do not fit the above categories are "pros", unless they come from Siberia, in which case they are "khans". From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 21 00:16:17 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:16:17 -0500 Subject: the problem is is that... In-Reply-To: <57694.3217739178@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: Yes, I've heard this too. Thanks. At 08:26 AM 12/19/01 -0800, you wrote: >I had a friend who consistently said, "The point being is...." >Interestingly, he lives in Yellow Springs (near Dayton). > >Peter > >--On Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:54 PM -0500 Beverly Flanigan > wrote: > >>I don't think I've heard that one, but the related "the reason being is >>..." is consistently used by a former student from Dayton, as well as by a >>few others I've randomly taken note of. I'd appreciate comments by others >>on these two constructions! >> >>At 09:47 PM 12/17/01 +0000, you wrote: >>>Beverly, >>> >>>Are you also dealing with "the problem being is ..."? >>>That's the one I hear more often here in Central Indiana. >>> >>>Herb >>> > This is of interest to me, since I'm working on a long-promised paper >>> > on this and related constructions (and I will get it to you soon, >>> > Arnold!). Of course the double "is" is deliberate, and it's become >>> > extremely common (the other "is"s are totally unrelated and completely >>> > "normal" in context). >>> > >> >> >>_____________________________________________ >>Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics >>Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 >>Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 >>http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm > > > >**************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Dec 21 00:53:18 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:53:18 -0800 Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Gally [mailto:tomgally at pa2.so-net.ne.jp] > To: honyaku at yahoogroups.com > Have you noticed that whenever a new dictionary is > published, the publicity > material and news reports always focus on the trendy > words that have been > added to it? One reason is that those are the easiest > words to gather. The > hard part is spotting new or unrecorded meanings of > conventional words, > especially words that already have many meanings. Mark > Spahn pointed out > that apparently no English dictionaries explain the > important difference > between "percentage" and "percentage point"; that may be > partly due to the > Genesis Lexicographer's oversight, but another factor is > probably that > "point" has so many other meanings already. If the word > for "percentage > point" were instead "perpoint" or "centification" or > "cybertick," it would > have been caught and added to dictionaries years ago. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 21 02:01:13 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:01:13 EST Subject: Yale Salad (1911); What! No Soap? Message-ID: YALE SALAD Yale has to have something to go with the "hot dog" (1895) and "Yale Cocktail" (1895). "Harvard Salad" contains Harvard beets, and I've found more recipes for that salad. From TABLE TALK, July 1911, pg. 386, col. 2: YALE SALAD. Arrange in the salad dish a shredded head of romaine lettuce; on this lay a mixture of green peppers that have been plunged in boiling water for one minute, cooled and shredded; small tomatoes, peeled, cooled and cut in carpels; one diced cucumber and the pulp from one grape fruit. Pour over a French dressing at the moment of serving. -------------------------------------------------------- WHAT! NO SOAP? "What! No Spinach?" probably is a later spin-off of "What! No Soap?" A bear says the catch phrase in an ad for Pears' Soap, TABLE TALK, September 1909, opp. index (page 1?): _A Severe Test for the Memory_ _Amusing for all by exceedingly useful liars_ MACKLIN, the celebrated actor, one evening made "The Cultivation of the Memory" the subject of a lecture, during which he said that to such perfection hed he brought his own, that he could learn anything by rote on once hearing it. Foote, another actor, was present, and handed up the following sentences, desiring that Macklin would read them once and repeat them from memory: "So she went into the garden to cut a cabbage-leaf, to make an apple-pie; and at the same time a great she-bear, coming up the street. pops its head into the shop. 'What! No Pears Soap?' So he died, and she very imprudently married the barber; and there were present the Picninnies, and the Joblilies, and the Garcelies, and the Grand Panjandrum himself, with the little round button at top; and they all fell to playing the game of catch as catch can, till the gunpowder ran out at the heels of their boots." _It is needless to say that Foote had the laugh of old Macklin, and that Pears' Soap is matchless for the Complexion_ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 21 02:22:16 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:22:16 EST Subject: St. David and Taffy-on-a-Stick (1910) Message-ID: ANS-L is having a "St. David" thread, but I'll send this to ADS-L as well. From TABLE TALK, February 1910, pg. 86, col. 1: _St. David and Taffy-on-a-Stick_ _F. C. Evans_ A number of words in the English language are derived from the names of saints. _Maudlin_, for instance, comes from St. Magdalene, _valentine_ from St. Valentinus. It is very probable that the name of the humble confection, beloved by the children, known as taffy-on-a-stick is connected with that of the patron saint of Wales. March first is St. David's Day, the national holiday of Wales. Very little actual fact is known about St. David, except that he was one of the early leaders of the Welsh church. He established monasteries and founded the bishopric now known by his name. He died about the year 550, and a shrine in the present cathedral of St. David's is said to enclose the bones. (Col. 2--ed.) But if the authentic history of this personage is meagre, the legends that cluster around his name are many in number and fantastic in character. His birth is reputed to have been predicted by a divine messenger, he was frequently attended by celestial beings, the Bath waters became warm and salubrious through his agency, he healed the sick and raised the dead, when he preached a snow-white dove perched on his shoulder. A remarkable tradition concerning his birth is preserved in a prayer that used to be said in Salisbury Cathedral on St. David's Day; viz., "Oh God, who, by Thy angel didst foretell thy Blessed Confessor Saint David thirty years before he was born, grant unto us we beseech thee, that, celebrating his memory (Pg. 87, col. 1--ed.), we may by his intercession attain to joy everlasting." Welshmen celebrate St. David's Day by wearing the leek, a plant that might be regarded the shamrock of Wales. Shakespeare alludes to this custom in several places. On this day one of the Welsh regiments of the British army gives a banquet, in which the leek plays a prominent part. The origin of wearing the leek is obscure; there is reason to believe it a relic of some pre-Christian festival connected with the revival of vegetation in the spring time. In England there was once a custom of hanging a Welshman in effigy on this day, possibly a survival of a time when a real Welshman was slaughtered by the invading heathen Saxons. In 1667 Pepys wrote in his diary, "In Mark Lane, I do observe, it being St. David's Day, the picture of a man dressed like a Welshman, hanging by the neck upon one of the poles that stand out at the top of one of the merchant's houses, in full proportion and very handsomely done; which is one of the oddest sights I have seen a good while, for it was so like a man that one would have thought it was indeed a man." This (Col. 2--ed.) practise was very common at one time, and until the middle of the nineteenth century, bakers made gingerbread Welshmen, called taffies, on St. David's Day, which were made to represent a man skewered. "Taffy" is a diminutive of David, a common name in Wales. "Taffy was a Welshman." Now the sweetmeat known as taffy-on-a-stick consists of a piece of molasses candy impaled on a skewer. It is not improbable that this is a descendent of the impaled Welshman, for the transition is easily made from ginger cake to candy _via_ such confections as "Scotch cake" etc. This probability is strengthened by the fact that most of the dictionaries are silent regarding the derivation of the word "_taffy_," while a few go as far as the Malay language to find its root in the word "_Tafia_," a kind of rum. But the above chain of facts would indicate that "taffy" (in England "toffy") as a general term for a type of candy has arisen from the name of a special kind of candy derived from the English nickname for a Welshman, which is in turn a result of so many Welshmen bearing the name of David their patron saint. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 20 15:53:10 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:53:10 +0800 Subject: Yale Salad (1911); What! No Soap? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:01 PM -0500 12/20/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >YALE SALAD > > Yale has to have something to go with the "hot dog" (1895) and >"Yale Cocktail" (1895). "Harvard Salad" contains Harvard beets, and >I've found more recipes for that salad. > From TABLE TALK, July 1911, pg. 386, col. 2: > > YALE SALAD. > Arrange in the salad dish a shredded head of romaine lettuce; on >this lay a mixture of green peppers that have been plunged in >boiling water for one minute, cooled and shredded; small tomatoes, >peeled, cooled and cut in carpels; one diced cucumber and the pulp >from one grape fruit. Pour over a French dressing at the moment of >serving. > Anymore, it's hard to find a good carpel-cut tomato in New Haven. O tempora, o mores. At least you could eat *our* salads, unlike those of our Cantabridgian neighbors to the north, without peeing crimson... larry From Ittaob at AOL.COM Fri Dec 21 04:56:48 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:56:48 EST Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries Message-ID: I've observed that dictionaries often do a poor job in defining phrases, as opposed to individual words. That may be because there are so many phrases, the meanings of which can often be deduced from their components. For example, in AHD you can look up percentage, and you can look up point (one meaning -- "a single unit, as in counting, rating or measuring") -- and pretty much understand what a percentage point is. Steve From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 21 07:14:20 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 02:14:20 EST Subject: Straight Up Or On the Rocks; Blue Plate Special & Blue Ribbon Chefs Message-ID: STRAIGHT UP OR ON THE ROCKS: THE STORY OF THE AMERICAN COCKTAIL by William Grimes 186 pages, hardcover, $20 1995 by Simon & Schuster 2001 by North Point Press, Farrar, Straus & Giroux William Grimes recently promoted this book on the New York Times's NEW YORK CLOSEUP show on cable tv channel NY1. His face was distorted, proving that he's either a restaurant critic or a mobster. David Shulman told me that he contributed to the 1995 book, but was given neither money nor credit. I don't know the extent of this. The 1995 book was okay. It was well-researched; Bonnie Slotnick told me that Grimes is a regular customer at her cookbook store. The key books were all cited. The 1995 book was well written. The 2001 edition seems to be exactly like the old book, but with a different publisher. For example, Harry Craddock's great THE SAVOY COCKTAIL BOOK (1930) was been reprinted in 1999. Why not give the date of the recent reprint--the one people can buy on Amazon.com? Updated, huh? One web site is given for a bibliography: www-rci.rutgers.edu/~edmunds/barman.html. One. Amazing. All those drink web sites (Bartender.com, Webtender.com, Cocktail.com), and Grimes cites NONE of them? Recipes are on pages 127-163, but we can get all that and much more for free on the web! The book Grimes should have written is a COCKTAIL DICTIONARY. State each cocktail, give the recipe, give historical references, explain the origin of the name, and maybe add a photo. "Black Russian"--which I just explained--is not here. "Sex on the Beach" is not here, either. What is Grimes doing? Maybe someday, if Oxford University Press decides to cover American drinks.... -------------------------------------------------------- BLUE PLATE SPECIALS & BLUE RIBBON CHEFS: THE HEART AND SOUL OF AMERICA'S GREAT ROADSIDE RESTAURANTS by Jane and Michael Stern 228 pages, hardcover, $24.95 Lebhar Friedman Books, NY 2001 The Sterns have been down this road before. They've done ROADFOOD and GOODFOOD, and are at www.roadfood.com. They're in GOURMET and on NPR. An interesting book on 1950s food, also by the Sterns, is in the NYU Bobst Library. (Any relation to NYU's Stern School?) It doesn't have page numbers. George, how did NYU get that? This book reads like a part of their others. It's like they re-arrange notes and files and come out with a "new" book. If you must buy just one, it's gotta be ROADFOOD. This is probably the weakest. "Blue Plate Special"--a phrase I've done some work on--is not explained. I found the book of interest for two items: SCHWABL'S (Buffalo, NY), Roast Beef for Beef on Weck--On pages 179-181. A guess is made that the dish is from 1910s-1920s. See the ADS-L archives for Beef 'n' Weck. C&K BARBECUE (St. Louis, MO), Snoot Sauce, St. Paul Sandwich--What does the next DARE have for these??? -------------------------------------------------------- BEN & JERRY'S APPLE CRUMBLE (NEW!) About eight years ago, all the Ben & Jerry stores had a flavor contest. I entered "Big Apple"--apples, cinnamon, raisins, walnuts. Each store had monthly winners, and I entered in several stores. I lost. Ben & Jerry's was on sale this week, and I spotted: new! BEN & JERRY'S APPLE CRUMBLE Brown Sugar Ice Cream, Cinnamon Streusel, Apples & a Caramel Swirl. I'm taking my idea to Edy's. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 21 07:46:20 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 02:46:20 EST Subject: Straight Up Or On the Rocks; Blue Plate Special & Blue Ribbon Chefs Message-ID: I just went to www.roadfood.com. See Reviews. Reviewed on 12-19-01 and 12-20-01 were Modern Apizza and Louis Lunch, both of New Haven, CT. From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Dec 21 14:04:29 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:04:29 -0500 Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries Message-ID: I think this makes a very worthwhile point. Thanks. TMP (full-time lexicographer since 1964) Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Gally [mailto:tomgally at pa2.so-net.ne.jp] > > To: honyaku at yahoogroups.com > > > Have you noticed that whenever a new dictionary is > > published, the publicity > > material and news reports always focus on the trendy > > words that have been > > added to it? One reason is that those are the easiest > > words to gather. The > > hard part is spotting new or unrecorded meanings of > > conventional words, > > especially words that already have many meanings. Mark > > Spahn pointed out > > that apparently no English dictionaries explain the > > important difference > > between "percentage" and "percentage point"; that may be > > partly due to the > > Genesis Lexicographer's oversight, but another factor is > > probably that > > "point" has so many other meanings already. If the word > > for "percentage > > point" were instead "perpoint" or "centification" or > > "cybertick," it would > > have been caught and added to dictionaries years ago. From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Dec 21 14:03:45 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:03:45 -0500 Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries Message-ID: "... can OFTEN be deduced from their components ..."? I would say sometimes. So the question remains, which compounds are self-explanatory and which need entry in dictionaries. T. M. PAIKEDAY Ittaob at AOL.COM wrote: > > I've observed that dictionaries often do a poor job in defining phrases, as > opposed to individual words. That may be because there are so many phrases, > the meanings of which can often be deduced from their components. For > example, in AHD you can look up percentage, and you can look up point (one > meaning -- "a single unit, as in counting, rating or measuring") -- and > pretty much understand what a percentage point is. > > Steve From jemcinto at IDIRECT.CA Fri Dec 21 16:39:02 2001 From: jemcinto at IDIRECT.CA (James McIntosh) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:39:02 -0500 Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries Message-ID: At 04:53 PM 12/20/01 -0800, you wrote: What is a >> "percentage point" anyway ? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 21 20:35:39 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:35:39 -0500 Subject: Waldorf Salad (1895) In-Reply-To: <14f.60a46cf.29536b31@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > I checked the online OED for TABLE TALK and AMERICAN COOKERY--the > classic American cookery publications from Philadelphia and Boston. > OED hasn't a single citation from either magazine! What about the 1915 citation for "Pyrex"? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Sat Dec 22 04:34:38 2001 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:34:38 -0600 Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries In-Reply-To: <5a.3cd0480.29541b10@aol.com> Message-ID: Dictionaries, by definition, deal primarily with individual words and with strings of words whose meaning is not simply the sum of their constituent parts (idiomatic phrases, open compounds). Transparent noun phrases are not normally included. I am assuming that 'percentage point' is a transparent noun phrase, meaning one point of percentage: e.g. 17 percentage points = 17 per cent. If this is not the case, and it has another established meaning, then dictionaries should include it, if it is common enough (and if warranted by the size of the particular dictionary, the intended audience, etc.) The matter of collocations -- words that commonly occur together, but don't have any special sense as a group (e.g. a phrase such as 'a hushed whisper' or a given verb that is commonly associated with a given noun, such as 'commit' with 'crime') -- is something else. The dividing line between collocations -- which are often cliches -- and idioms or open compounds is not always clear, and what constitutes a collocation can be very subjective. However, the concept of collocations has been getting more lexicographical attention in recent years and many dictionaries include more information about them than in the past, often in the form of example phrases following definitions. Bilingual and learners' dictionaries, especially, need to provide information about collocations. Of course, their number is legion and no dictionary could possibly include them all in any way that would be meaningful to a user who didn't want to devote his entire life to reading it. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 1533 Early Drive Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 3K1 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Ittaob at AOL.COM > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:57 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries > > > I've observed that dictionaries often do a poor job in defining > phrases, as > opposed to individual words. That may be because there are so > many phrases, > the meanings of which can often be deduced from their components. For > example, in AHD you can look up percentage, and you can look up point (one > meaning -- "a single unit, as in counting, rating or measuring") -- and > pretty much understand what a percentage point is. > > Steve > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 22 07:46:04 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 02:46:04 EST Subject: Swiss Steak; Um-m-m (and much more!) Message-ID: PYREX--Yes, Fred's right. The OED has "Pyrex"--not even a food!--from AMERICAN COOKERY. One citation, from the leading magazine in the field for over half a century. Amazing. STRAIGHT UP OR ON THE ROCKS--The first edition is 1993, not 1995. I misread the small print..."Long Island Iced Tea" is never mentioned, either. If William Grimes keeps this up, he'll get John Mariani status...Anyone know of any other reviews of this book? It'll be interesting to know the opinions of non-scholars in the field. ROCK AND ROLL--William Safire botches it this Sunday. He gives the impression that the term comes from 1947..."Roll" was popular in the famous Log Cabin/O.K. political campaign of 1840. "Keep the ball rolling" was one of the slogans popularized then...Maybe Gerald Cohen or David Barnhart should write a letter on these two points. -------------------------------------------------------- UM-M-M (continued) I've been documenting "mmm" (as in "mm-mm good" Campbell's soup) and "umm." Someone's gotta do it. From NATIONAL FOOD MAGAZINE, March 1916, pg. 205: _Dandelion Greens: UM-M-M! Pass 'Em To Me!_ By WILLIAM HERSCHELL (It's a poem. From the last line--ed.) Um-m-m! Um-m-! Pass 'em to me! "Songs of the Streets and Byways," The Bobbs-Merill Co. -------------------------------------------------------- SWISS STEAK (continued) Jean Anderson's AMERICAN CENTURY COOKBOOK (1997) highlights "Swiss Steak." Pg. 91: "THE FIRST RECIPE I've been able to find for Swiss Steak appears in _Larkin Housewives' Cook Book_ (1915)." "Swiss Steak" is in TABLE TALK, June 1911, pg. 308, and November 1911, pg. 612. From June 1911, pg. 308, col. 1: _Swiss Steak_ One pound of steak, (Saturday, the third)(In the Daily Menus--ed.), one quart of flour, salt and pepper, four skined tomatoes, one sliced onion, water. Have the steak cut two inches thick, and pound into it the flour with the sanitary steak shredder. Put the steak into a skillet, with some (Col. 2--ed.) lard and brown on both sides. Then cover with water, adding the sliced onion, tomatoes sliced and cover closely and let simmer for three hours. Just before the steak is done add salt and pepper to taste. When done the gravy is already made and is delicious. Swiss steak, is best prepared with the sanitary steak shredder as it makes it so very tender, and very juicy. The shredder weighs half a pound, and may also be used for other purposes, that will readily suggest themselves to the intelligent housewife, as a fruit or vegetable chopper, potato masher or noddle cutter, each impression cutting a noodle twenty-four inches long. it is practically indestructible, and will last a lifetime. -------------------------------------------------------- SUNSHINE CAKE DARE?...Not cited in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK. A "Sunshine Cake" recipe is in TABLE TALK, 1906, pg. 266, col. 2. Another recipe is in TABLE TALK, 1908, pg. 77, col. 1. "Angel and Sunshine Cakes," by Anna Nixon, is in TABLE TALK, October 1909, pp. 400-401. From Pg. 401, col. 1: For the _sunshine cake_ whip the whites of seven eggs to a firm, smooth froth, adding one level teaspoonful of cream of tartar when they are about half beaten. Be very careful not to whip the whites until the mass is so dry that it breaks into feathery flakes, for if it once reaches that point the cake is almost sure to be dry and tough. Add the sugar a tablespoonful at a time, and fold in very lightly, and then the yolks, well beaten. Gently fold in three and one-half ounces of flour, tablespoonful at a time, flavor with one teaspoonful of lemon or orange extract and bake very slowly for one hour. -------------------------------------------------------- APPLE SAUCE CAKE (continued) An "Apple Sauce Cake" recipe is in TABLE TALK, 1907, pg. 400, col. 1. Also, TABLE TALK, June 1910, pg. 322, col. 1. -------------------------------------------------------- DUTCH APPLE CAKE; APPLE ICE CREAM (continued) A "Dutch Apple Cake" (not "pie") recipe is in TABLE TALK, June 1911, pg. 331, and again in September 1911, pg. 486. "Apple Ice Cream" is on the same page in TABLE TALK, September 1911, pg. 486, col. 2. -------------------------------------------------------- APPLES OF AMERICA "Apples of America" is an article in TABLE TALK, February 1914, pp. 94-96, reprinted from THE EPICUREAN. Much apple lore is described. Pg. 95, col. 2: "The Ben Davis, for instance, so known in the Middle West, is known in New York State as a New York Pippin." "Big Apple" is never mentioned. FWIW: In its September 2001 issue, SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN suggested that "Big Apple" comes from those 19th-century whores. I wrote to the person who said that and told him the truth, but got no response. I wrote a letter to the editor, and Gerald Cohen wrote in to back me up. The latest SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN is out; my letter was not published. -------------------------------------------------------- BLACK MAMMY (continued) The black mammy wasn't invented in GONE WITH THE WIND. This should be included in the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD. An interesting article is in TABLE TALK, June 1912, pg. 1: _The Black Mammy Memorial Institute and Its Founder_ (More from TABLE TALK on Monday. I leave for Cuba on Tuesday morning--ed.) From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Dec 22 13:30:11 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:30:11 -0500 Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries Message-ID: Vickie Neufeldt wrote in part: "... The dividing line between collocations -- which are often cliches -- and idioms or open compounds is not always clear, and what constitutes a collocation can be very subjective. ..." This is surely a part--albeit a small part--of the art of lexicography. Indeed, those publishers who think that computer programs or inexperienced editors can replace experienced lexicographers will end up with less artfully crafted lexicons. Regards and Happy Holidays, David barnhart at highlands.com From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Sat Dec 22 22:54:41 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 17:54:41 -0500 Subject: Misplace Message-ID: The latest OED appeals list includes an appeal for "misplace" (to lose, mislay) antedate 1989. Is this just an Americanism? I've long used the word in that sense (although the sense of placing wrongly, as in "misplaced trust," is perhaps more familiar) and had no trouble finding a significant antedating: >>That said recovery at law was against equity, and by reason of a defect in the petitioner's law title; arising from the accident of the Court of Probate's having omitted to give an order to sell said land, or of said orders having been misplaced or lost.<< Gay v. Adams, Bates, 1 Root 105 (Conn. Super. 1786). John Baker From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 23 21:15:41 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 16:15:41 EST Subject: Deacon Porter's Hat (Mount Holyoke food traditions) Message-ID: My niece's Bat Mitzvah is over. I've just recovered. The Westchester Bat Mitzvah was a huge affair. An Arsenio Hall-wannabe said, "Let's give it up for the Hamotzi blessing!" Four identical uber-blondes seemingly took the wrong turn from NY Knicks cheerleader practice and led the dances. This is for a 13-year-old girl! Shouldn't "I'm a Slave 4 U" be banned? Anyway.... Three of my cousins went to Mount Holyoke College (the first women's college). I said that I recently took a brief trip to Vassar College for "Vassar fudge," and that Smith College and Mount Holyoke College would be next month. She told me about three food traditions at her college: DEACON PORTER'S HAT: Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA has e brief note, but see the web site http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~dalbino/books/lester/porter.htm. What does Fred Shapiro have for "eat my hat"? This is not in DARE, but it absolutely should be. OED, too. MARY LYONS' BIRTHDAY: My cousin said it's a tradition to eat ice cream at 6 a.m. every year on her birthday (founders' day). Http://www.mtholyoke.edu/offices/comm/csj/970221/cake.html mentions cake and Deacon Porter's hat for Mary Lyons' birthday, but my cousin said that everyone eats ice cream. MILK & CRACKERS: Every night at about 10 p.m. at Mount Holyoke, they have "milk and crackers." The "crackers" were originally Graham crackers, but now they're cookies. My cousin looked into the tradition, and she read that it was believed that milk and Graham crackers satisfied the sexual urges that Mount Holyoke students would sometimes have, especially at that hour. I'll check it out--in a scholarly way, I mean. Meanwhile, the Bat Mitzvah dancers are gone, and I'm left with just these Bat Mitzvah chocolates.... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 24 14:33:10 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:33:10 EST Subject: Hillbilly Heroin Message-ID: "Hillbilly Heroin" should get some WOTY consideration, especially if you add a category of new drug terms. I didn't spy it on the Wordspy. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 24 18:20:04 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:20:04 EST Subject: Spiggotie (1909); Firemen, or Moors and Christians Message-ID: SPIGGOTIE EL TORO: A MOTOR CAR STORY OF INTERIOR CUBA by E. Ralph Estep Packard Motor Car Company, Detroit 1909 Pg. 13: One was a country doctor who was riding miles to visit a stricken "spiggotie" in some distant hut. A spiggotie is any kind of a provincial Cuban, when mentioned by an outsider. He is one of that species of uncertain race which populates the Spanish-American countries and makes it difficult for a visitor to draw a color line between negro (Pg. 14--ed.) and Castillian blood. I have also met spiggoties who were a charming mixture of Spanish, negro, and Chinese. (John Ayto's OXFORD DICTIONARY OF SLANG (1998), pg. 37, gives 1910 for spiggoty/spiggity/spigotti/spigoty and guesses it's from "no spika de English." Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG (1998) has "19C, US" and "? broken English 'spikka da English.'" What cites does he have??--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- FIREMEN, OR MOORS AND CHRISTIANS CUBA by Irene A. Wright MacMillan Company, NY 1910 Pg. 83: CHAPTER IV _Arroz con Frijoles*_ *White rice and black beans,--a popular dish, known as "Moors and Christians," or, in Havana, as "Firemen,"--_i.e._ a vari-colored company. (The book has "_cazabi_ bread" on page 6 and much more. Gotta finish it--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 24 23:56:03 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:56:03 EST Subject: Mulligan (1900); Pina Fria (1910) Message-ID: MULLIGAN David Shulman was reading George Ade's ARTIE (1896), when he looked at the back and found an advertisement for Clarence Louis Cullen's TALES OF THE EX-TANKS (1900). How a book in 1896 can advertise a book for 1900, I dunno. Shulman, a meticulous reader, found lots in the first 20 pages. I flipped through it and found "mulligan." OEDS/RHHDAS has "mulligan" (stew) for 1904. Shulman should take credit for finding it and Cullen's work. TALES OF THE EX-TANKS: A BOOK OF HARD-LUCK STORIES by Clarence Louis Cullen Grosset and Dunlap, NY 1900 Pg. 369: ...I was down at the foot of Clay street (San Francisco--ed.) buying Mulligans--which consist of red peppers mixed with steamed beer--for a large and admiring bunch of 'longshoremen. They took turns telling me the stories of their lives, and then I'd purchase more Mulligans for 'em. They'd edge up and give me lung-to-lung talk about what a nice, chile con carne proposition I was whereupon I'd order additional beakers composed of red peppers and steamed beer for them, and the dripped green boys for myself. (That's Mulligan?...I suppose you want me to look for my "steamed beer" archives now--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- PINA FRIA IN CUBA AND JAMAICA by H. G. de Lisser Gleaner Company, Kingston 1910 Pg. 10: You ask for "pina fria," and he takes a pineapple and peals it and cuts it into large chunks and pounds it up with white sugar and ice and water, and hands the concoction to you in a huge, thick tumbler, and you find it delicious. (Where's the rum?--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 25 01:25:13 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:25:13 EST Subject: TONY Eating & Drinking 2002; Table Talk Message-ID: EATING & DRINKING 2002 TIME OUT NEW YORK 344 pages, paperback, $11.95 When I reported on EATING & DRINKING 2000 (in November 1999), it was 264 pages and $9.95. It's added 80 pages. The print is small. This thing looks massive. It's conveniently divided by neighborhood and by cuisine. New York City is probably the food capital of the world, but keep in mind that--post 9/11--a lot of these restaurants are no longer in business. I could point out what's not in the OED, but I'd be here all day. See for yourself. CUE (which I'll finish up when I return from vacation) had four comprehensive dining guides each spring--Long Island, Upstate NY, NJ & PA, and New England. CUE is not indexed, not microfilmed, not digitally scanned, and I'm probably one of the only historians to go through it. TONY's EATING & DRINKING is a worthy publication in the CUE tradition. -------------------------------------------------------- TABLE TALK I've copied the index to all of the volumes. For a few years, however, the annual index was missing...The NYPL has it from 1887 and is missing volume one. I now have in this apartment an index (or columns) to TABLE TALK, AMERICAN COOKERY, GOURMET, BON APPETIT, THE COOK, THE CATERER, AMERICAN RESTAURANT, RESTAURANT MAN, THE RESTAURATEUR, AMERICAN KITCHEN, GOOD HOUSEKEEPING, BETTER HOMES & GARDENS, VOGUE, LADIES' HOME JOURNAL, WOMANS' HOME COMPANION, SUNSET, FAMILY CIRCLE, McCALL'S, HOUSE BEAUTIFUL, PLAYBOY, ESQUIRE, CUE, and I'm slowly reading the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE.... From TABLE TALK's early volumes: VOLUME II (1887) Egyptian Rolls...136 Scotch Eggs...452 Swiss Eggs...210, 452 VOLUME III (1888) Cake, Carolina...543 Cake, New England Loaf...233 Cookies, New York...233 Oysters, Kabobs...88 Oysters, Keebobbed...103 "Painted Ladies"...87 Pie, Chess...58 Pie, Moonshine...42 Shrimp Rolls...512 VOLUME IV (1889) Cake, Sunshine...362 Eggs, Beauregard...204 Salad, Italian...287 Salad, Russian...458 VOLUME V (1890) Bread, Adirondack Corn...179 Bread, Kentucky Corn...345 Cake, Log Cabin...224 Hamburg Steaks...103, 171 Lobster, Newburg...179 Pie, Bethlehem Apple...134 Potatoes, Delmonico...60, 135 VOLUME VI (1891) Bun Cinnamon...208 Cake, Othello...409 Ice Cream, Neapolitan...313 VOLUME VII (1892) Lobster, Newberg...140, 203 VOLUME VIII (1893) Cake, Devil's...139 Cake, Sunshine...213 Pie, Apple, Moravian...87, 170 Salad, Japanese...427 VOLUME IX (1894) Cake, Devil's Food...44 Cake, Sunshine...143, 156 Ice Cream, Pistachio...237 Lobster, a la Newburg...87, 167. 388 Salad, Dandelion...242 Salad, Suedoise...279 Soup, Alphabets for...279 (_alphabet soup._ A soup, usually tomato or chicken based, containing pasta cut into the shapes of alphabet letters. The term saw print in 1934. --John Mariani, ENYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK, 1999) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 25 09:47:15 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 04:47:15 EST Subject: Steam Beer (long!) Message-ID: Here, at last, is "steam beer." Patrick Murphy's syndicated "The Barman's Corner" mentioned "steam beer" in parts of about ten columns. I can't find all of the BUCKEYE TAVERN columns, but I found a few TAP & TAVERN columns. 10 September 1942, BUCKEYE TAVERN, pg. 6, col. 3: The home of steam beer is San Francisco--the old San Francisco of pre-Prohibition days. But we have yet to discover a San Francisco bartender who knows just what steam beer really is, or was. 21 March 1949, TAP & TAVERN, pg. 19, col. 1: This week, at long last as the writing boys day, we tracked down the origin of "steam beer." It's a question that's been asked by readers many times in the ten years or so this column has been running in beverage trade papers, and it's a question we have wanted to answer properly, for as a native San Franciscan we had a youthful recollection of "Steam Beer" signs. These signs you should be told, were to be found above the locked and empty premises of what were "saloons" in the era immediately before 1919 and the Volstead Act. When the Act became law, in 1920 we believe, the saloons closed their doors, but "Steam Beer" continued to be spelled out above the swinging portals, often in stained or colored glass--now a lost art to all but the church window industry, we might add. So, as a kid with an early morning paper route in San Francisco, we often trotted by the various bistros which had so recently been closed by the three large Prohibition groups under the impetus of World War I "patriotism," and we used to wonder just what the term meant. Our father told us, now and again, about how he and other members of Admiral Dewey's once famed "White Squadron" used to lay in the China Sea or some other far away place with a far away name, and let their minds dwell on good old San Francisco style steam beer. How their mouths did water for it, or more correctly, how their throats thirsted. It was, no doubt, quite a topic of conversation among the men who so handily defeated the Spaniards in 1898. _THE FACTS_ In these recent years of writing this beverage column, we've come upon several rumors regarding steam beer. One was that steam was used in the actual brewing prcoess, hence the term; another was that steam was used in cleaning pipes, vats, cases, etc., hence the term. Still another is that there might have been a "Mr. Steam" who originated this particular brew. None of these have any basis in fact. There is, in U.S.A. today, just one steam brewery left in the country, and it is located at 17th & Kansas Sts., San Francisco. It is a very small brewery indeed, doing less than 1,000 barrels yearly (the large brewers do from 500,000 to 1,000,000 barrels per year--even more in a few notable instances) and it is, so far as we can ascertain, the sole repository of any and all authentic information on steam beer, there being very little literature available on the subject. From the management of the firm, the Anchor Brewing Co., we have been told that the term "steam beer" is now and always has been used merely to signify that (Col. 2--ed.) this particular beer had a lot zip, foam, effervescence, a lot of "steam" in the slang sense. We still use that expression today--a pitcher puts a "lot of steam" behind a fast ball, and we "get our steam up" if we're agitated, and so on. It's a declining slang phrase, no doubt, as H. L. Mencken would probably agree, for steam engines and such are mostly obsolete in th is gasolene, diesel, electric and jet age. But a lively, frothy glass of beer, in the 1850's, '60's, '70's and so on, was certainly remindful of a "steamy glass of suds," and this simple and basic explanation is the true one for the origin of the term, the brewery assured me. And they should know. _SOME HISTORY_ Just one hundred years ago, as these words are writ, there started from the East a horde of Argonauts setting out for the gold fields of California. They came from New England, from Pennsylvania, Ohio, Illinois, barely waiting for the ending of the winter's snow to be on their way with wagon train, with or without family, to a new start in that fabled land where gold actually laid gleaming bright on the sandy river bottoms of the gurgling Sierra rivers. These Argonauts, more popularly termed '49'ers, brought with them a native thirst, which was first slaked by native wine and imports of South American brandy (we refer to Pisco Punch in particular), by tequila and rum and by bourbon and rye, brought by the ships left deserted in San Francisco harbor by the ship-jumping, gold-crazed sailors of all nations. That probably sufficed for the year 1849. But by 1850, there had been enough building, and enough of a stabilization in the metropolis of all this gold fever--San Francisco--to call for the establishm ent of one or more breweries, for beer. So beer was made, and from the start it was, believe it or not, steam beer. _NO AGING_ To a great extent, it HAD to be steam beer. This beer was made without the refrigeration devices available in established breweries of the East. It was not made for "laying away," which is what the term "lager beer" really means. These two slight differences were enough, however, to give it an entirely different flavor and person- (Copy cut off--ed.) (Col. 3--ed.) chener and so on. In short, the steam beer that came in 1850 (and it was made in 1850, records indicate) was really a product of the situation which confronted the early horde of gold seekers and adventurers. The particular type of brew that evolved, with its zestful "steam" head, became the pattern for San Francisco, which is to say the pattern for the West, since Los Angeles was then, as the remark is so often made, a "sleepy Spanish town." Even Oakland didn't figure in early steam beer, but we think Sacramento might well have, along with Reno. Anchor Brewing supplied your correspondent with a thesis written by Messrs. Gale and Dixon, of the U. of California, in which they observe that, and we quote pertinent points: "Steam beer is kegged with its own fermentation--evolved carbon dioxide (this) supplying sole carbonation and pressure." "More than 22 breweries for steam beer operated in S.F. alone until the fire and quake of 1906. Thereafter, although many of the breweries resumed operation, the socially elite had taken to bottled lager beer, and left steam beer for the working classes." "Prohibition put most of the steam breweries out of business. (Col. 4--ed.) In 1933, when Repeal became effective, few (steam breweries) reopened." Lager beer sales and merchandising were just too tough, competitively. (What happened, of course, wa that some of the steam breweries converted to lager. Your correspondent notes that Welland's, a famed California brwer today, was a steam beer maker in the early 1900's, for instance.) _OBSERVATIONS_ While the embryo savants of U.C. who wrote the above paper quoted from do not say so, a factor which certainly has worked against steam beer on the West Coast today is the lack of any draught beer in the region. This is just bottled beer country and that's all there is to it. As a result, a draught product such as steam beer we have discussed has a couple of strikes on it right away quick. This would not be true "back East." Few bars in California have draught dispensing equipment, believe it or not. So, the "future" of steam beer seems limited to its present outlets in the S.F. region. Such outlets, we relate for such visiting firemen as may come to San Francisco this 1949 A.D., are scattered, but the mainmost one is the Crystal Palace Market, on S.F.'s broad Market St. One local firm did try putting "steam beer" in bottles, but it didn't work and--or, as the lawyers say, didn't catch on. In general, these things are true: steam beer is fermented faster, is aged much less, places no sales reliance on calrity or sparkle. It contains, per keg, a small portion of "green beer" which, when introduced into the keg, causes a secondary fermentation. The keg, being sealed, holds in the gases given off by this fermentation, and these gases--just as in the instance of champagne--cause the pressure and foam which are present when the steam beer barrel is tapped. So much for a great institution of the U.S.A. this past century, which is now almost extinct. We find the subject so intriguing we'd like to write more, and will certainly welcome your observations or comments on this glorious suds of yesteryear. 13 November 1950, TAP & TAVERN, pg. 14, col. 1: PASSED a sign the other day, on the outside of a roadside restaurant, and got to thinking that to half of the passers-by it was meaningless, to those of us who are adding on the grey hairs regularly, it told a story. The sign: "FIRPO'S--STEAM BEER." If the first part of the sign leaves you unblinking, you're either very young or not a fight fan. If the second part is meaningless, you're likewise either young, or a stranger to the San Francisco of "the good old days." 18 June 1951, TAP & TAVERN, pg. 13, col. 1:ABOUT a year or so ago, this column discussed that almost extinct West Coast institution, "steam beer." To know about "steam" is a sure indication that a person's background includes a personal acquaintance with San Francisco or the West Coast 'way back when. Steam fell prey to the inroads of lager beer, a continuing process which has today practically eliminated the former product from the world of beverages. It was with quite some surprise, however, that we observed last month, in the course of a visit by Charles Kummerlander (Soren J. Heiberg Co., Chicago) to the West Coast, that in 1910 he "made the first lager beer in California." He did this at the Golden West Brewery in Hayward, Calif. So, it would seem from the record that California breweries were slow to change over, and that they made the change only after Eastern brewers more or less forced their hand with lager inroads...Speaking of steam, a San Francisco pub carries this chip of an announcement on its shoulder: "Steam Beer--the beer that d oesn't give a damn about Milwaukee"...But, who's kidding whom? (Off to Cuba. Be back January 2nd--ed.) From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Dec 25 15:57:43 2001 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 10:57:43 -0500 Subject: Steam Beer Message-ID: The definition of steam beer strikes me as right: years ago I used to make beer. Not being able to put jugs of beer in the fridge for months, I only made it in the late fall or winter after the wild yeasts had been killed off by the frosts. When making beer, the yeast works the wort and produces a yeast cloud: beer is ready to bottle when the yeast cloud falls, leaving a clear liquor which contains no or little natural carbonation. In order to get a head on a beer, a small quantity of sugar has to be added to each bottle before capping. (The one year I tried using jug wine bottles for my beer a gallon jug exploded in the garage and, boy! did it stink up the attached basement!) If the beer is poured at room temperature a huge volume of suds is emitted--I can easily imagine a steam analogue attaching itself. ___________________ "The hardest thing in America is to be what one is softly" --Leon Wieseltier From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 25 18:58:54 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:58:54 EST Subject: Bahama bits Message-ID: Greetings from the Nassau airport. My flight leaves for Cuba in about an hour...That should have been the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG in a past post. WHAT-TO-DO Nassau-Cable Beach-Paradise Island (www.bahamasnet.com) Pg. 99, col. 1: "Sky juice" is the number one drink here. It's a combination of gin and coconut water. It's so good says Evans, "it should have come from the heavens, so I called it sky juice." BAHAMIAN COCKTAILS AND MIXED DRINKS by Mike Henry LMH Publishing, Kingston 1980 1996 second edition 2001 revised edition Pg. 25: Caribbean Champagne Pg. 26: Cuban Cocktail (rum, sugar, lime) Pg. 28: Goombay Smash (Dark Rum, Old Nassau Coconut Rum, pineapple juice, lemon juice, Triple sec, syrup) Pg. 58: Bahamas Cow (rum liqueur, cold milk, egg) (Merry Christmas. Gotta go--ed.) From Semark at AOL.COM Tue Dec 25 20:18:19 2001 From: Semark at AOL.COM (Sarah Markin) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 15:18:19 EST Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: To whom this may concern, Sorry to post this but can you please let me know how to unsubscribe from the listserv. Thank you. Sarah Markin From FreeEmailSoftware2 at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 25 22:09:34 2001 From: FreeEmailSoftware2 at YAHOO.COM (FreeEmailSoftware2 at YAHOO.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 17:09:34 EST Subject: >>>ADVERTISE TO 11,953,000 PEOPLE FREE! Message-ID: Dear ads-l at uga.cc.uga.edu, Would you like to send an Email Advertisement to OVER 11,953,000 PEOPLE DAILY for FREE? Do you have a product or service to sell? Do you want an extra 100 orders per week? NOTE: (If you do not already have a product or service to sell, we can supply you with one). ========================================================= 1) Let's say you... Sell a $24.95 PRODUCT or SERVICE. 2) Let's say you... Broadcast Email to only 500,000 PEOPLE. 3) Let's say you... Receive JUST 1 ORDER for EVERY 2,500 EMAILS. CALCULATION OF YOUR EARNINGS BASED ON THE ABOVE STATISTICS: [Day 1]: $4,990 [Week 1]: $34,930 [Month 1]: $139,720 ======================================================== To find out more information, Do not respond by email. Instead, Please visit our web site at: http://www.bigcashtoday.com/package1.htm List Removal Instructions: We hope you enjoyed receiving this message. However, if you'd rather not receive future e-mails of this sort from Internet Specialists, send an email to freeemailsoftware3 at excite.com and type "remove" in the "subject" line and you will be removed from any future mailings. We hope you have a great day! Internet Specialists From boksang2 at GEOPIA.COM Tue Dec 25 23:58:51 2001 From: boksang2 at GEOPIA.COM () Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 08:58:51 +0900 Subject: ũ ܷӰ Ƿ? [] Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carljweber at MSN.COM Wed Dec 26 18:08:27 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:08:27 -0600 Subject: Hochelaga Etymology: Portuguese Message-ID: Hochelaga Etymology: Portuguese Carl Jeffrey Weber As an aside to Chicago Etymology. Hochelaga is a place name, writ large and mysterious in the mid-16th century on the famous maps of the deep interior of the North American Continent. It seems always to have been thought by scholars to be first recorded by the famous French explorer, Jacques Cartier, in 1535 - on his second voyage of discovery (and appearing, directly attributable to Cartier, on Pierre Descoliers' maps in the 1540s). It has been considerer a Huron-Iroquois word, variously meaning Large Town, Big Rapids, or Beaver Dam. However, Hochelaga (Ochelage), appearing on the following EARLIER Portuguese map, of 1534, challenges the traditional view, and opens the strong possibility that it is of IndoEuropean origin -- a water morpheme obviously suggested by "-laga." http://www.heritage.nf.ca/exploration/lavrador.html. The first part of the word, if by authentication, signifies the number "eight," the appearance of the word shows an uncanny prescience, the Great Lakes not having been (even roughly) sketched in on any map for another 116 years. (Of this "Hoche-" as the number, though, I'm at this point reserved.) The Portuguese in the Gulf of St. Laurence area was known early - as was the presence of other Europeans (but primarily as fleet fishing industries, not explorers). Particularly illustrative, though, the Portuguese are seen on the famous Cantino map of 1502. The Treaty of Tordesillas, 1494, is expressed on this map as the famous line separating the Spanish from the Portuguese --http://www.heritage.nf.ca/exploration/port_cantino.html. Note how little of the Continent was known. The word "Portugal," not very legible here, nonetheless, shows their claim in the St. Laurence region, near the top of the 1494 line. If these observations could be directed to the attention of a scholar of historical Portuguese, I would appreciate it. On similar Iberian cartographic evidence and historical context, "Canada" might also be determined to have been Portuguese, relating to the early descriptions of water foul that, to the astonished bedazzlement of the Europeans, blackened the skies betwixt the vast horizons. From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Dec 26 18:49:08 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:49:08 EST Subject: New Britain, Connecticut Message-ID: I got a phone message from a reporter inquiring about the dialect of New Britain, Connecticut. Any experts I can refer him to? Any comments? Thanks - Allan Metcalf From jbaker at STRADLEY.COM Wed Dec 26 19:24:35 2001 From: jbaker at STRADLEY.COM (jbaker at STRADLEY.COM) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:24:35 -0800 Subject: YourDictionary.com's Top 2001 Words Message-ID: Apropos of the annual Word-of-the-Year discussions, here's an extant top 10 list. ******************** If you are having trouble with any of the links in this message, or if the URL's are not appearing as links, please follow the instructions at the bottom of this email. Title: CNN.com - 'Ground zero' tops 2001 word list - December 26, 2001 Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to access the sent link: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=468518322&pt=Y Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to SAVE THIS link: http://www.savethis.clickability.com/st/saveThisPopupApp?clickMap=saveFromET&partnerID=2001&etMailToID=468518322&pt=Y Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to forward this link: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=forward&etMailToID=468518322&partnerID=2001&pt=Y *Please note, the sender's email address has not been verified. ******************** Email pages from any Web site you visit - add the EMAIL THIS button to your browser, copy and paste the following into your Web browser: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=browserButtons&pt=Y" ********************* Instructions: ----------------------------------------- If your e-mail program doesn't recognize Web addresses: 1. With your mouse, highlight the Web Address above. Be sure to highlight the entire Web address, even if it spans more than one line in your email. 2. Select Copy from the Edit menu at the top of your screen. 3. Launch your Web browser. 4. Paste the address into your Web browser by selecting Paste from the Edit menu. 5. Click Go or press Enter or Return on your keyboard. ******************** From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Wed Dec 26 19:16:57 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:16:57 -0500 Subject: Hillbilly Heroin In-Reply-To: <85.15284470.295896a6@aol.com> Message-ID: At 09:33 AM 12/24/01 -0500, you wrote: > "Hillbilly Heroin" should get some WOTY consideration, especially if > you add a category of new drug terms. I didn't spy it on the Wordspy. I hope to hell it won't, since it stigmatizes, once again, the Appalachian region. Oxycontin is indeed a scourge in this area, but West Virginia deserves better. _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 26 19:51:16 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:51:16 -0800 Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries In-Reply-To: <000c01c18aa1$f7399b80$11820a0a@vneufeldt.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: I'm sorry for dropping out of this thread after having started it... I originally posted this from a different list and the original poster didn't explain in any further detail why he thought percentage point has been missed. Looking at my AHD3 (sorry, it's the only monolingual English dictionary I have), point seems to work for this compound as in 20. A single unit, as in counting, rating or measuring. Percentage, though, seems quite a bit less clear: 1.a. A fraction or ratio with 100 understood as the denominator; for example, 0.98 equals a percentage of 98. b. The result obtained by multiplying a quantity by a percent. 2. A proportion or share in relation to a whole; a part: The hecklers constituted only a small percentage of the audience... While point has another definition that gets close, 23.a. A unit equal to one dollar, used to quote or state variations in the current prices of stocks or commodities. b. A unit equal to one percent, used to quote or state interest rates or shares in gross profits. it seems that the meaning of "percentage point" would not be transparent if the reader found these definitions. Benjamin Barrett gogaku at ix.netcom.com P.S. I have blind cced this back to the original poster as well :) > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 8:35 PM > > Dictionaries, by definition, deal primarily with > individual words and with > strings of words whose meaning is not simply the sum of > their constituent > parts (idiomatic phrases, open compounds). Transparent > noun phrases are not > normally included. I am assuming that 'percentage point' > is a transparent > noun phrase, meaning one point of percentage: e.g. 17 > percentage points = 17 > per cent. > > Victoria Neufeldt > > -----Original Message----- > I've observed that dictionaries often do a poor job in defining > phrases, as > opposed to individual words. That may be because there are so > many phrases, > the meanings of which can often be deduced from their components. For > example, in AHD you can look up percentage, and you can look up point (one > meaning -- "a single unit, as in counting, rating or measuring") -- and > pretty much understand what a percentage point is. From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 26 19:54:22 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:54:22 -0800 Subject: L or El? Marijuana Message-ID: Does anyone know how to spell the word "ell" used for marijuana and where it comes from? I asked a generation X-er and Y-er, but neither knew, and a couple of sites I looked at online don't seem to have it, either. Benjamin Barrett From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Dec 26 19:51:39 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:51:39 -0500 Subject: New Britain, Connecticut In-Reply-To: Message-ID: AAllan at AOL.COM said: >I got a phone message from a reporter inquiring about the dialect of New >Britain, Connecticut. Any experts I can refer him to? Any comments? Thanks - Did it have to do with the pronunciation of the city name? It's very common in Connecticut to express scorn for the pronunciation with [?] for /t/ (even though this pronunciation is unbiquitous). I know just enough about CT dialect stuff to know that I don't know enough to be an open-ended expert. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 27 01:09:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 20:09:45 EST Subject: Junkanoo Message-ID: Greetings from Havana, Cuba. I´m staying at the Golden Tulip Hotel in Parque Central. It´s the best hotel in twon and quite pricey, but the internet was out half of today. I have about one minute for this. JUNKANOO--Is this in OED? See www.junkanoomagazine.com. A popular festival in the Bahamas. Perhaps related to ¨John Canoe¨ or to ¨Doukonou,¨ from Togo. BAH´MERICAN--Title of a column in the magazine. YALE GOSSIP COLUMNIST--A person in my group wore a YALE shirt today. I asked him what he did, and he said he was a gossip columnist. His name is Michael Lewittes, and he works for US magazine. I told him about the Walter Winchell problem, and that I´m looking for the lost NEW YORK GRAPHIC issues from the 1920s. Maybe he´ll help? HEMINGWAY DRANK HERE--Seems to be a Cuban version of the George Washington-sleeping-here phrase. From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Thu Dec 27 06:47:48 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 01:47:48 EST Subject: L or El? Marijuana Message-ID: I have heard many many words for marijuana, but "ell", or anything like it, is not one of them. Where was this heard? I have heard "el loco" before, though. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Thu Dec 27 14:06:05 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:06:05 +0100 Subject: L or El? Marijuana Message-ID: Benjamin Barrett asks >Does anyone know how to spell the word "ell" used for marijuana and where it comes from? A Swedish police officer, teaching at the Police Academy's Narcotics Center, has published a very interesting dictionary (in Swedish, but it should be easily understandable for an English-language linguist) containing over 5000 drug terms taken from many languages: Stefan Holmén, "Pundartugg. Narkotikarelaterade slanguttryck" (1997, Polishögskolan, Sörentorp, S-17192 Solna, Sweden, 412 p.) He has the following words which could be possible origins: "El Kif", North African name of cannabis; "Elle Momo", marijuana laced with PCP (Peace Pill, phencyclidine, angel dust); "Elva", cannabis from Bresil; "L.L." for cannabis. "L" alone is normally used for LSD. Sadly, he gives no indication of sources for individual words, just a general list of sources. Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From kkmetron at HOME.COM Thu Dec 27 18:07:00 2001 From: kkmetron at HOME.COM (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:07:00 -0800 Subject: Afghanistan Redux Message-ID: I believe several weeks ago while I was away the suffix "-stan" was discussed. George Stewart (_Names on the Globe_) offers Persian stan, a common term for "land". From KKMetron at CS.COM Thu Dec 27 15:20:20 2001 From: KKMetron at CS.COM (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:20:20 EST Subject: Afghanistan Redux Message-ID: I believe several weeks ago while I was away the suffix "-stan" was topical. George Stewart (_Names on the Globe_) offers "the Persian common word for land." A Lithuanian website recently defined the element as Slavic for "government or camp." Will anyone be so kind as to retrieve ADS's definitive translation from memory's archives? Paul Kusinitz From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Dec 27 20:52:11 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 12:52:11 -0800 Subject: L or El? Marijuana In-Reply-To: <139.6da78b7.295c1e14@aol.com> Message-ID: I first heard it in the popular song "Must be the Money" (I assume that's the title) where they say, "Smokin' ell in the back of a limousine." El loco seems like a plausible source. Benjamin Barrett > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Douglas Bigham > > I have heard many many words for marijuana, but "ell", or > anything like it, > is not one of them. Where was this heard? > > I have heard "el loco" before, though. From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Dec 27 20:59:10 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:59:10 -0500 Subject: "MOTHER FUCKER" transparent? [was: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries] Message-ID: Victoria Neufeldt wrote: > . . . Bilingual and learners' dictionaries, especially, need to > provide information about collocations. I agree with Victoria, but what is the dividing line between learners and experts (not to speak of the line that divides collocations from traditional lexical items like idioms and phrases)? Here's an interesting story about a professor of English who fell between the two stools: This professor, may he rest in peace, had a doctorate in English from the University of London. His dissertation on a minor Victorian author was published by the author's cousin who ran a book publishing company in Australia. His editors apparently did a good copy-editing job on the manuscript. The text was flawless as far as I could see, but for obvious reasons, they dared not touch the Dedication, which read: "To my mother for her inordinate affection [to me]..." The editors probably thought, Hey, if something had been going on between mother and son, who are we to put in our two cents worth? Now, as all English experts and others (including learners beyond a certain grade level) know, "inordinate affection/love," is a collocational phrase that means something bad, very bad, in the contexts in which it is used. (Questions of sexual orientation would not be relevant). It occurs frequently in ascetical Christian religious literature, as in the socalled "Rodriguez" (Rodrigues?) volumes. "Inordinate," by morphology and definition, is negative in meaning ("disorderly or immoderate") and Rodriguez would be referring to homosexual and such affections, as betwen religious who have taken the vow of chastity; "particular friendship" is another term referring to the same concept in the above contexts. Incestuous love is included in the meaning of the term. When the phrase is applied to one's mother, I suppose the uncollocational semi-transparent idiomatic term "mother fucker" comes to mind. But it could be argued (English word composition being what it is) that the phrase doesn't make it transparent whether "mother" is the fucker or the fuckee. I suppose "m.f." is entered in most dictionaries of slang because of this nontransparency. If you are curious about how this egregious error (call it collocational, idiomatic, whatever) came about, the professor and his mother spoke a "mother tongue" in which "love" collocates with "limitless" (positive sense). "Inordinate love/affection" was probably the most idiomatic translation he could think up of the original phrase, "limitless love" being not even a good collocation. So, was the professor still a learner, an expert by virtue of his doctorate in English, or just bilingual? The main point of my story, as Victoria Neufeldt says, is that dictionaries should include a collocation "if it is common enough (and if warranted by the size of the particular dictionary, the intended audience, etc.)" Happy Holidays. TOM PAIKEDAY, lexicographer The User's(r) Webster Dictionary, 2000 ISBN: 0-920865-03-8 (cservice at genpub.com) From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Dec 27 23:12:36 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 18:12:36 -0500 Subject: FW: New Britain, Connecticut Message-ID: What Alice refers to below is true in native central CT dialect. Words affected include mountain, mitten, and the like, with (expected) medial flapped-t being realized as a glottal stop, when followed by syllabic n. These speakers do not have the glottal stop in words such as bottle, as characteristic of NYC dialects. I do not know of other clear markers to this dialect. It is an r-ful dialect, as are most to the west of the Connecticut River, within the state. This from personal observation (over about 20 years as a resident of the area) by a lexicographer, not formally trained in phonetics. larry (horn), further comments? Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Alice Faber Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 2:52 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: New Britain, Connecticut AAllan at AOL.COM said: >I got a phone message from a reporter inquiring about the dialect of New >Britain, Connecticut. Any experts I can refer him to? Any comments? Thanks - Did it have to do with the pronunciation of the city name? It's very common in Connecticut to express scorn for the pronunciation with [?] for /t/ (even though this pronunciation is unbiquitous). I know just enough about CT dialect stuff to know that I don't know enough to be an open-ended expert. From carljweber at MSN.COM Fri Dec 28 02:17:55 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 20:17:55 -0600 Subject: "MOTHER FUCKER" transparent? [was: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries] Message-ID: Thomas Paikeday wrote: <<< When the phrase is applied to one's mother, I suppose the uncollocational semi-transparent idiomatic term "mother fucker" comes to mind. But it could be argued (English word composition being what it is) that the phrase doesn't make it transparent whether "mother" is the fucker or the fuckee. I suppose "m.f." is entered in most dictionaries of slang because of this nontransparency. <<< I would say, IMMFHO, being a trans parent is a different issue. Notice in your "x x" compound term that if you delete the agentive in the second item, and replace it with the affix "-ing", it becomes adjectival and, as you'll see, belies the deep structure. Notice how this parses in bruh-thuh speak with added noun: "muh-thuh fuh-kin' poophead". If you put them in a tree, add copulation, and then shake the tree, you get "poophead is fuhkin' muthuh" (unduh the tree). Whether mom is a "who" or a "whom" becomes obvious. It could be there's some other reason it's not in the dictionary. CJW From douglas at NB.NET Fri Dec 28 04:24:00 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:24:00 -0500 Subject: L or El? Marijuana In-Reply-To: <139.6da78b7.295c1e14@aol.com> Message-ID: HDAS shows "L" = "marijuana", apparently a recent term. J. Green's Cassell slang dictionary also shows this "L", with the explanation that it's an abbreviation for "log" (a little bigger than a "J", I suppose). -- Doug Wilson From funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM Fri Dec 28 03:25:25 2001 From: funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM (Jordan Rich) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 22:25:25 -0500 Subject: "MOTHER F*CKER" transparent? [was: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries] In-Reply-To: <3C2B8B9E.FB8EDB7F@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: At 03:59 PM 12/27/01 -0500, Thomas Paikeday wrote: >Victoria Neufeldt wrote: > >When the phrase is applied to one's mother, I suppose the >uncollocational semi-transparent idiomatic term "mother fucker" comes to >mind. But it could be argued (English word composition being what it is) >that the phrase doesn't make it transparent whether "mother" is the >fucker or the fuckee. I suppose "m.f." is entered in most dictionaries >of slang because of this nontransparency. I don't know that the term M.F. is transparent. Different definitions for the term are: Roger Abrahams in Deep Down in the Jungle (Aldine de Gruyer: Hawthorne, NY 1970: page 32) described it as anti-female term. However, Geneva Smitherman in Talkin And Testifyin (Wayne State University Press: Detroit, MI: 1977: pages 60-62), while ascribing both positive and negative definitions to the term, disagrees with the more literal meaning. Cecil Brown, in his Doctoral Dissertation: Stagolee From Shack Bully to Culture Hero (University of California, Berkeley, 1993, pages: 82-83) disagrees with Abrahams' definition of the term. Also, it is a term to describe Miles Davis fans. I am sure there other such discussions, but these are the ones that I recall. Jordan Rich Independent Scholar From AAllan at AOL.COM Fri Dec 28 16:21:28 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:21:28 EST Subject: ADS Annual Meeting schedule Message-ID: Two speakers will be unable to attend our Annual Meeting in San Francisco next week and have canceled their presentations. They are Nancy Elliott and Gina Collins, scheduled to speak at noon and at 12:30 p.m. Saturday, January 5. So there is just one presentation left in our Session 7 starting at 11:30 a.m. that day. It gives an hour of free time before our luncheon at 1:15 p.m. It's in our September Newsletter (on our website, if you don't have a hard copy), page 12. Just cross out presentations 24 and 25. We're still left with 26 interesting presentations, starting at 12:30 p.m. Thursday, January 3. See you there! - Allan Metcalf From vze36g5m at VERIZON.NET Fri Dec 28 18:40:28 2001 From: vze36g5m at VERIZON.NET (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:40:28 -0500 Subject: List messages aren't reaching me In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011228131401.00a6d7f0@nb.net> Message-ID: On 12/28/01 13:22, "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > Is it just me, or are others having the same experience? > > Looking at the archive, I find most of the list messages during the last > couple of days have not reached me. I sent one (the last one over my name), > it appeared in the archive after a few hours, but never came back to me > from the list. I sent a test message directly to myself without a problem. > > Have I been Spanish-walked off the list for inordinate scurrility or > sculduddery? Is my e-mail server flaky? Or is it a problem with the list > server? All seems well here. I am receiving all messages that appear in the archives. I have, however, had a problem with the list in the recent past of sending messages to the server only to have them appear nowhere: not on the list, not in the archive and no bounce. From douglas at NB.NET Fri Dec 28 18:22:08 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:22:08 -0500 Subject: List messages aren't reaching me Message-ID: Is it just me, or are others having the same experience? Looking at the archive, I find most of the list messages during the last couple of days have not reached me. I sent one (the last one over my name), it appeared in the archive after a few hours, but never came back to me from the list. I sent a test message directly to myself without a problem. Have I been Spanish-walked off the list for inordinate scurrility or sculduddery? Is my e-mail server flaky? Or is it a problem with the list server? -- Doug Wilson From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Fri Dec 28 19:14:15 2001 From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:14:15 -0800 Subject: L or El? Marijuana In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011227232144.00ab0860@nb.net> Message-ID: My husband went to high school in San Pedro and there the hispanics called marajuana lenio or bota...phenetic spelling. He also recalls it being called 13 (M being the 13th letter of the alphabet). Julienne -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 8:24 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: L or El? Marijuana HDAS shows "L" = "marijuana", apparently a recent term. J. Green's Cassell slang dictionary also shows this "L", with the explanation that it's an abbreviation for "log" (a little bigger than a "J", I suppose). -- Doug Wilson From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 28 18:23:58 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:23:58 -0500 Subject: FW: New Britain, Connecticut Message-ID: The "expected" medial consonant here would not be the flapped-t, which is heard in 'butter', 'fatter', 'bottle', etc. in "ordinary" American English. The glottal stop IS common in 'mountain' and 'mitten', and not just in CT; but the alternate form is [t], as in NYC, if I'm not mistaken. But does NYC use [t] in 'bottle'? Surely not the glottal stop, which is used in this word in much Brit. Eng. but not in Am. Eng., as far as I know. The words I cite in class as "disputed" in Am. Eng. are generally proper names, like Clinton, Scranton, Hinton, etc., where spelling pronunciation tends to produce [t] medially (foreign reporters routinely pronounce the first ex. with [t], RP style). New Britain would fall under this same rubric. It doesn't seem to me that 'mountain' and 'mitten' and 'button' etc. are regionally differentiated outside of NYC/NJ--but I'm open to disputation. At 06:12 PM 12/27/01 -0500, you wrote: >What Alice refers to below is true in native central CT dialect. Words >affected include mountain, mitten, and the like, with (expected) medial >flapped-t being realized as a glottal stop, when followed by syllabic n. >These speakers do not have the glottal stop in words such as bottle, as >characteristic of NYC dialects. I do not know of other clear markers to >this dialect. It is an r-ful dialect, as are most to the west of the >Connecticut River, within the state. > >This from personal observation (over about 20 years as a resident of the >area) by a lexicographer, not formally trained in phonetics. > >larry (horn), further comments? > >Frank Abate > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Alice Faber >Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 2:52 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: New Britain, Connecticut > > >AAllan at AOL.COM said: > >I got a phone message from a reporter inquiring about the dialect of New > >Britain, Connecticut. Any experts I can refer him to? Any comments? >Thanks - > >Did it have to do with the pronunciation of the city name? It's very common >in Connecticut to express scorn for the pronunciation with [?] for /t/ >(even though this pronunciation is ubiquitous). > >I know just enough about CT dialect stuff to know that I don't know enough >to be an open-ended expert. _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From FreeEmailSoftware2 at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 29 01:01:57 2001 From: FreeEmailSoftware2 at YAHOO.COM (FreeEmailSoftware2 at YAHOO.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 20:01:57 EST Subject: >>>ADVERTISE TO 11,953,000 PEOPLE FREE! Message-ID: Dear ads-l at uga.cc.uga.edu, Would you like to send an Email Advertisement to OVER 11,953,000 PEOPLE DAILY for FREE? Do you have a product or service to sell? Do you want an extra 100 orders per week? NOTE: (If you do not already have a product or service to sell, we can supply you with one). ========================================================= 1) Let's say you... Sell a $24.95 PRODUCT or SERVICE. 2) Let's say you... Broadcast Email to only 500,000 PEOPLE. 3) Let's say you... Receive JUST 1 ORDER for EVERY 2,500 EMAILS. CALCULATION OF YOUR EARNINGS BASED ON THE ABOVE STATISTICS: [Day 1]: $4,990 [Week 1]: $34,930 [Month 1]: $139,720 ======================================================== To find out more information, Do not respond by email. Instead, Please visit our web site at: http://www.bigcashtoday.com List Removal Instructions: We hope you enjoyed receiving this message. However, if you'd rather not receive future e-mails of this sort from Internet Specialists, send an email to listremovalstoday at yahoo.com and type "remove" in the "subject" line and you will be removed from any future mailings. We hope you have a great day! Internet Specialists From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 29 00:36:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 19:36:45 EST Subject: Cocotaxis & Camels Message-ID: Greetings again from Havana. It´s bizarre seeing all these 1950s cars...Walking out of the hotel is always a challenge--everyone approaches you. "Taxi?" "What is the time?" "What are you looking for?" "Where are you from?" "My friend--!" "Canada!!!!" I have a free day tomorrow, and I´ll see if the national library is open. I´m looking for newspapers in English from the 1920s-1950s. I know of a few, such as the HAVANA JOURNAL. I have limited time on this internet, but maybe someone can check the Cuban national library´s (online?) catalog and make research requests/suggestions for Saturday. COCOTAXI--Or, Coco Taxi. A taxi that´s more like a golf cart. It looks like half of a shell of something. CAMEL--The local bus. It´s a truck, with a two-humped thing in back for passengers. It´s very long; a really strange public transportation vehicle to see on the highways. TOURIST TREE--a turpentine tree, because the bark is flaky, like a tourist with sunburn. SANDWICH HABANERO--ham, cheese, vegetables, roasted pork. HELADO CUBANO--vainilla (sic) and chocolate ice cream. white rum, coffee. These drinks are at my Golden Tulip hotel: MOJITO DAIQUIRI FRAPPE RON COLLINS HAVANA SPECIAL CUBA LIBRE MULATA--dark rum, lemon juice, creme de cacao brown CUBATA--dark rum, cola, lemon juice...$5.25 Coffee: GARIBALDI--Golden Rum, whipped cream HEMINGWAY--Bourbon Whiskey Jack Daniels CUBANITO--Served at the nearby Plaza Hotel, but I didn´t see the ingredients listed. From Davidhwaet at AOL.COM Sat Dec 29 04:45:55 2001 From: Davidhwaet at AOL.COM (David Carlson) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 23:45:55 EST Subject: FW: New Britain, Connecticut Message-ID: In my salad days I dated a girl from New Britain whose pron of the city did include the glottal stop which I never thought of as particularly unusual since my aunt (Norwood, Boston, and Walpole all MA) used the glottal stop regularly in cattle, bottle, mitten, and button. A female friend of mine from those same days solved her glottal stop locution in bottle by referring to said object as a flask. New Britain is typically r-ful Inland Northern, but is common for < idea> and the pronunciation of Saturday can be either [saerdi] or [saerde]. David R. Carlson Amherst MA formerly fron Norwood MA 14 mi this side of Fenway Park. From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Sat Dec 29 09:12:46 2001 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 02:12:46 -0700 Subject: Medial -/t/- (was New Britain, Conn) Message-ID: This South Texan pronounces medial -/t/- in 'bottle', 'latter' as a voiced stop (i.e. [d]), so that 'latter' and 'ladder' are homophonous, as in the old conundrum, "The carpenter put down his ladder and saw, and then picked up the [laed at r]. Which one did he pick up?" In British RP the -/t/- is voiceless and aspirated. I'm not sure what Beverly meant by calling the pronunciation of 'Clinton', 'Scranton', etc. "disputed" (I think that's the term she used -- I can't check now). I have an unreleased [t] followed by a syllabic nasal. Again, Rosemary Church on CNN and many news announcers (I think even Dan Rather, when he tries) keep a tertiarily stressed schwa in the final syllable of 'Clinton', etc., making it -[t at n]. Rudy From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Dec 29 11:18:27 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 11:18:27 -0000 Subject: L or El? Marijuana Message-ID: Been away. Thus the gap in this response: I think Doug Wilson misread my entry, the abbrev. as far as I know (and printed) it is for _loc_ (not _log_), itself abbreviating _locoweed_. JG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 4:24 AM Subject: Re: L or El? Marijuana > HDAS shows "L" = "marijuana", apparently a recent term. > > J. Green's Cassell slang dictionary also shows this "L", with the > explanation that it's an abbreviation for "log" (a little bigger than a > "J", I suppose). > > -- Doug Wilson > From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Dec 29 12:08:57 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:08:57 -0000 Subject: Spiggotie (1909); Firemen, or Moors and Christians Message-ID: Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG (1998) has "19C, US" and "? broken English 'spikka da English.'" What cites does he have??--ed.) > To date, other than this, a TAD one for 1908 (thanks to L. Zwilling). JG From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 29 15:15:44 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:15:44 EST Subject: Junkanoo Lingo Message-ID: I have a few internet minutes. From JUNAKANOO MAGAZINE, December 2001, pg. 20, col. 2: _JUNKANOO LINGO_ TO RUSH--(We rushin´) Participating actively in Junkanoo as part of an organized or unorganized costumed group; dancing, shaking the cast iron cowbells or blowing the cow´s horn, the whistle or the bugle or beating the goat or sheep skin drums by hand, creating the pulsating rhythm of Junkanoo. TO RUSH SCRAP--Participating in the Junkanoo parade without being part of a specific group, theme or organization, with no particular costume or music assignment. SCRAP GANG--An unorganized group of Junkanoo'ers who come to the parade with no particular costume design, music or organization. GET IN LINE--Forming lines to begin the Junkanoo parade. The linesman´s duty is to make certain that all Junkanoo'ers are in line and remain in formation throughout the parade. KALIK--The sound of the shaking of the cowbells, and the word that the Junkanoo'ers repeat as they mock the sound of the bells. Also, the name of the popular Bahamian beer, named after the sound of the Junkanoo cowbells. DOONGALIK--The sound of the beating of the drums and the word that the Junkanoo'ers repeat as they mock the sound of the drums. Also, the name of the Junkanoo art studio known for its production of Junkanoo art. FIRST LAP--Each group's first completion of the entire circular Junkanoo route. LAST LAP--Each group's final completion of the entire circular Junkanoo route. HEATING THE DRUM--Heating of the drums over an open fire to produce the proper Junkanoo sound. The open end of the drum is placed over the fire at a safe distance to allow the skin on the other end to be resilient and stretched until the proper tone is achieved. This process is repeated before the beginning of every lap. THE SHACK--This is the place where Junkanoo artists and artisans meet to design, layout, paste up and produce Junkanoo costumes and artwork. It is also the official headquarters where members of the various group meet to discuss and plan strategies for Junkanoo. In some cases, there is more than one "shack" to accommodate the designs and costumes wherever space is available. THEY COMIN'--The Junkanoo group is coming down the parade route from around the bend and entertaining the main thoroughfare. MISC._: Forget "Firemen." It's "Moors and Christians" everywhere for "rice and beans." Is OED going to add this? A Bahamas magazine containing food items has Conch Salad, Conch Chowder, Cracked Conch, Peas 'n' Rice, Conch Fritters, and Grouper Fingers. Off to the National Library of Cuba. From vze36g5m at VERIZON.NET Sat Dec 29 15:36:36 2001 From: vze36g5m at VERIZON.NET (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:36:36 -0500 Subject: Junkanoo Lingo In-Reply-To: <29.2038d51c.295f3821@aol.com> Message-ID: I'd compare the Junkanoo to other Caribbean celebrations such as jump-ups and Jouvert. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Dec 29 14:54:21 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 09:54:21 -0500 Subject: Spiggotie (1909); Firemen, or Moors and Christians In-Reply-To: <001101c19061$9f48f270$023264c0@green> Message-ID: Does this mean a little bitty ole one? dInIs (citing the only TAD he knows, although he reckons he'll be blasted for this ignorance of acronyms; I wish there was a Barhardt American Dictionary) > Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG (1998) has "19C, US" >and "? broken English 'spikka da English.'" What cites does he have??--ed.) >> > >To date, other than this, a TAD one for 1908 (thanks to L. Zwilling). > >JG -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Dec 29 17:13:50 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:13:50 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22heads_I_win_=96_tails_you_lose=22?= Message-ID: I have been working resolutely through the "Evening Star" of New York in the mid 1830s. The editor was Mordecai Noah, and his earlier newspapers -- the National Aadvocate and the New-York Enquirer -- had been pretty good sources for interesting words. Not much in this one, so far, though. I have learned that the businessmen who work on Wall Street don't choose to live in the city, but instead commute in every day from their country estates, out near Astor Place. Also a spine- tingling ghost story: in an unspecified house, the bells in the servants quarters began ringing at odd hours, and when the maids went to answer there was no one there. The servants all quit, not choosing to be summoned by ha'nts, and the children were afraid to go to sleep at night. Then someone caught the family cat playing with the bell rope. But I digress. . . . 1835: In relation to the [stock] brokers, we fear it has been "heads I win – tails you lose" Evening Star, January 17, 1835, p. 2, col. 3 I see in the OED, sense 3b, under Head, noun, citations giving this phrase from 1846 and 1907, both English. Whiting's Early American Proverbs has it from 1814. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Dec 29 17:36:47 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:36:47 -0000 Subject: Spiggotie (1909); Firemen, or Moors and Christians Message-ID: Mea whatever. Leonard Zwilling; A TAD Lexicon (ie an annotated dictionary of the work of T.A. Dorgan) (1993) JG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" To: Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Spiggotie (1909); Firemen, or Moors and Christians > Does this mean a little bitty ole one? > > dInIs (citing the only TAD he knows, although he reckons he'll be > blasted for this ignorance of acronyms; I wish there was a Barhardt > American Dictionary) > > > Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG (1998) has "19C, US" > >and "? broken English 'spikka da English.'" What cites does he have??--ed.) > >> > > > >To date, other than this, a TAD one for 1908 (thanks to L. Zwilling). > > > >JG > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Department of Linguistics and Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > preston at pilot.msu.edu > Office: (517)353-0740 > Fax: (517)432-2736 > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Dec 29 17:33:16 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:33:16 -0500 Subject: binky Message-ID: My wife calls my attention to Bill Gallo's cartoon in the Daily News of December 23, 2001, p. 82. In the lower right corner of the drawing is a diapered baby, with a pacifier in its mouth. There is a label reading "binky, the ol' reliable" and an arrow pointing to the pacifier. This caught my wife's attention because her mother had called pacifiers "binkies". I've never heard the word and don't find it in the usual dictionaries. DARE has (1) "any little mechanical contrivance" from 1912 and (2) as the answer to the question "the part of the body that you sit on", 1968. The lamented mother-in-law was born in southwestern Penn. in about 1904 to a family with roots there of several generations, and she lived there all of her life. I know that Bill Gallo is a New Yorker old enough to have been in the marines during WWII, and his last name suggests to me that he is not Scots Presbyterian. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sat Dec 29 17:36:00 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:36:00 -0500 Subject: Medial -/t/- (was New Britain, Conn) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rudolph C Troike said: >This South Texan pronounces medial -/t/- in 'bottle', 'latter' as a voiced >stop (i.e. [d]), so that 'latter' and 'ladder' are homophonous, as in the >old conundrum, "The carpenter put down his ladder and saw, and then picked >up the [laed at r]. Which one did he pick up?" In British RP the -/t/- is >voiceless and aspirated. I'm not sure what Beverly meant by calling the >pronunciation of 'Clinton', 'Scranton', etc. "disputed" (I think that's >the term she used -- I can't check now). I have an unreleased [t] followed >by a syllabic nasal. Again, Rosemary Church on CNN and many news >announcers (I think even Dan Rather, when he tries) keep a tertiarily >stressed schwa in the final syllable of 'Clinton', etc., making it -[t at n]. All my notes on glottal stop for /t/ in New England are in the lab, so this is from memory. I believe that in this area, you find a fair amount of variability in /ntn/ sequences, as in Clinton*, Scranton. Clinton is a suburb of New Haven, and its pronunciation isn't remarked upon. Groton, like Clinton, is universally pronounced with a [?] for /t/, and, in both towns, "local" pronunciations are stigmatized. (Marianna Di Paolo told me that a similar phenomenon occurs with the pronunciation of Layton (Utah).) I *may* be imagining it, but I believe that the actual difference resides in the pronunciation of the syllabic [n]. The normal pronunciation is [?] followed by syllabic [n] (with no discernible vowel quality). However, one occasionally hears [?] followed by an ultra-short copy of the vowel preceding [?], followed by [n]. So what's stigmatized is [brI?In] not [brI?n]. *As I was composing this, my first thought was that, well of course Clinton doesn't have [?]; the preceding /n/ blocks the change of /t/ to [?]. Then I said it out loud: [klIn?n]. So much for introspection! Alice From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Dec 29 18:09:49 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:09:49 -0500 Subject: Medial -/t/- (was New Britain, Conn) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alice, Say it isn't so! Intropection rules. I think the preceding /n/ (in "Clinton") is et up by its nasalization of the preceding vowel and the block on the glottal stop replacement of /t/ is removed. I also suspect that you are right about stigmatization. It isn't stigmatization of the glottal stop unless it's in an intervocalic posiiton. When the glottal stop is a rapid "onset" to the following syllabic /n/, I suspect there is no stigma. (I personally know this must be the case becuase I do the latter but not the former, and who would stignmatize my 1940's endowed Louisville, KY speech?) In such processes, however,m there may be ,lixically-nased stigmatization. The 'bidnis' pronunciation (of "business") is highly sitgmatized where I'm from, even by people who have uttered "wadn't, "idn't" and the like commmenting on it. Similarly, 'hep" for "help" is highly stigmatized (although vocalization of /l/ with a trace vowel left behind is not. On the other hamnd, complete loss (admittedly in l+C environments, like "woof" for "wolf," which always makes my funny-talking Milwaukee wife turn to me and say "bow-wow") lacks such stigma. dInIs >Rudolph C Troike said: >>This South Texan pronounces medial -/t/- in 'bottle', 'latter' as a voiced >>stop (i.e. [d]), so that 'latter' and 'ladder' are homophonous, as in the >>old conundrum, "The carpenter put down his ladder and saw, and then picked >>up the [laed at r]. Which one did he pick up?" In British RP the -/t/- is >>voiceless and aspirated. I'm not sure what Beverly meant by calling the >>pronunciation of 'Clinton', 'Scranton', etc. "disputed" (I think that's >>the term she used -- I can't check now). I have an unreleased [t] followed >>by a syllabic nasal. Again, Rosemary Church on CNN and many news >>announcers (I think even Dan Rather, when he tries) keep a tertiarily >>stressed schwa in the final syllable of 'Clinton', etc., making it -[t at n]. > >All my notes on glottal stop for /t/ in New England are in the lab, so this >is from memory. I believe that in this area, you find a fair amount of >variability in /ntn/ sequences, as in Clinton*, Scranton. Clinton is a >suburb of New Haven, and its pronunciation isn't remarked upon. Groton, >like Clinton, is universally pronounced with a [?] for /t/, and, in both >towns, "local" pronunciations are stigmatized. (Marianna Di Paolo told me >that a similar phenomenon occurs with the pronunciation of Layton (Utah).) >I *may* be imagining it, but I believe that the actual difference resides >in the pronunciation of the syllabic [n]. The normal pronunciation is [?] >followed by syllabic [n] (with no discernible vowel quality). However, one >occasionally hears [?] followed by an ultra-short copy of the vowel >preceding [?], followed by [n]. So what's stigmatized is [brI?In] not >[brI?n]. > >*As I was composing this, my first thought was that, well of course Clinton >doesn't have [?]; the preceding /n/ blocks the change of /t/ to [?]. Then I >said it out loud: [klIn?n]. So much for introspection! > >Alice -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Dec 29 18:13:30 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:13:30 -0500 Subject: Medial -/t/- (was New Britain, Conn) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Alice, I think I meant "introspection" rather than "intropection," which I hesitate to define (though I am sure wags are out there who have already been tempted). dInIs > >Say it isn't so! Intropection rules. I think the preceding /n/ (in >"Clinton") is et up by its nasalization of the preceding vowel and >the block on the glottal stop replacement of /t/ is removed. > -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From lisawitt at GTE.NET Sat Dec 29 18:30:52 2001 From: lisawitt at GTE.NET (Lisa Wittenberg Hillyard) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:30:52 -0800 Subject: L or El? Marijuana Message-ID: I've heard marijuana referred to as LB referencing the abbreviation for pound. Perhaps L is a further reduction. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sat Dec 29 18:18:56 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:18:56 -0500 Subject: Medial -/t/- (was New Britain, Conn) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It hadn't even occurred to me to wonder. I'd better go have another cup of coffee. Dennis R. Preston said: >>Alice, > > >I think I meant "introspection" rather than "intropection," which I >hesitate to define (though I am sure wags are out there who have >already been tempted). > >dInIs > >> >>Say it isn't so! Intropection rules. I think the preceding /n/ (in >>"Clinton") is et up by its nasalization of the preceding vowel and >>the block on the glottal stop replacement of /t/ is removed. > From douglas at NB.NET Sat Dec 29 19:50:07 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:50:07 -0500 Subject: L or El? Marijuana In-Reply-To: <007101c1905a$8ba33570$023264c0@green> Message-ID: >I think Doug Wilson misread my entry, the abbrev. as far as I know (and >printed) it is for _loc_ (not _log_), itself abbreviating _locoweed_. That's right, sorry. [I carefully followed up "log" to make sure that's what it said, and it seemed to be OK ... but I have no excuse for ignoring the latest decade of 'culture', I guess. My failing eyesight, plus a little tiny glitch on the page.] -- Doug Wilson From soyun23 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 29 20:43:47 2001 From: soyun23 at HOTMAIL.COM (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?vNK/rMDM?=) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 05:43:47 +0900 Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dILzSv6zAzLChIMPfw7XHz7TCILv1svYgtb+/tbvzICgxOby8wMy787D8tvcp?= Message-ID: Carsex24 추천 사이트 [미스누드] missnude.co.kr Carsex24 추천 사이트 [미스누드] missnude.co.kr 현재 최다가입자를 보유 자체제작 100% 한국모델만 사용 60분이상 러닝타임의 풀버젼영화 단편무비 업데이트, 패티쉬전문 지연셀프카메라, 누드패티쉬, 패티쉬영상 안정된 구성 빠른 다운로드 속도 꾸준한 업데이트를 자랑하는 곳이네요 관심있는분들 둘러보세요 1개월 맴버쉽 - 12000원 3개월 맴버쉽 - 30000원 (핸드폰결제가능) Carsex24가 적극추천하는 유료사이트입니다. 미스누드둘러보기 From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Sat Dec 29 21:39:34 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:39:34 -0500 Subject: binky Message-ID: My wife, from eastern Massachusetts, has this, and I was initially mystified. It turns out that Binky is a registered trademark for pacifiers, currently owned, I believe, by Playtex Products, and apparently used since 1935. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: George Thompson [SMTP:george.thompson at NYU.EDU] > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 12:33 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: binky > > My wife calls my attention to Bill Gallo's cartoon in the Daily News of > December 23, 2001, p. 82. In the lower right corner of the drawing is > a diapered baby, with a pacifier in its mouth. There is a label > reading "binky, the ol' reliable" and an arrow pointing to the pacifier. > > This caught my wife's attention because her mother had called > pacifiers "binkies". I've never heard the word and don't find it in > the usual dictionaries. DARE has (1) "any little mechanical > contrivance" from 1912 and (2) as the answer to the question "the part > of the body that you sit on", 1968. > > The lamented mother-in-law was born in southwestern Penn. in about 1904 > to a family with roots there of several generations, and she lived > there all of her life. I know that Bill Gallo is a New Yorker old > enough to have been in the marines during WWII, and his last name > suggests to me that he is not Scots Presbyterian. > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998. > > > ******************************************* > * This email has been scanned for viruses * > * Stradley Ronon Stevens & Young, LLP * > ******************************************* > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 29 23:41:00 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:41:00 EST Subject: Soda Jerk Slang & Coney Island Chicken (Winchell, 1933) Message-ID: Bad news & good news from the Cuban National Library. The bad news is, as expected, the library is awful. No computers or copiers that I could see, or even microfilm machines. The cookbooks that I looked up in the card catalog didn´t seem very interesting The Library of Congress has HAVANA POST (1900-1960), HAVANA TELEGRAM (1922-1938), and HAVANA, THE MAGAZINE OF CUBA (1929-1930), and I´ll check them out next week. This library has the same thing. I said what I wanted (newspapers in English), and was brought just the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM for 1933. I read the entire year. The good news is that Walter Winchell´s column was in the newspaper, I hadn´t read Winchell in 1933, and it´s a goldmine! 3 February 1933, pg. 4, col. 2: _Add Slanguage._ The slanguage used by the waiters of Dinty Moore's restaurant fascinated us the other sundown when, while seated in the rear near the chef, we heard a waiter ask for: "Two nose warmers!" "What's a nose warmer?" we asked Moore. "Consomme in a cup," he explained, as he told the chef to prepare "five bouquets." "What's a bouquet?" we asked. "A side order of lettuce with a slice of tomato on top!" 1 June 1933, pg. 2, col. 3: _Code._ A Hollywood soda-jerker forwards rthis glossary of soda-fountain lingo out there..."Shoot one" and "Draw one" is one coke and one coffee..."Shoot one in the red!" means a cherry coke...An "echo" is a repeat order..."Eighty-six" means all out of it..."Eighty-one" is a glass of water..."Thirteen" means one of the big bosses is drifting around...A "red ball" is an orangeade..."Squeeze one" is a limeade..."Eighty-nine" means that a movie player of importance is in the store, and "Twisted, choke and make it cackle!" means a chocolate malted milk--with an egg in it. 10 June 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _Soda Jerker Slang._ J. A. J. argues that the contributor from Hollywood who supplied the recent soda jerker slanguage here was behind the times. In New York, for instance, near Loew´s State, this is how the lingoes: A "bale of hay" or a "stack of straw" is a dish of strawberry ice cream. "Draw a pair" is two cups of coffee--and when the boss is out, the signal for the crew is a "pair of draws!" 8 July 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: The grandest way to fry eggs! Arthur Hornblow of the United Artists Studio made it popular in Hollywood...He first knifes thick slices of French bread, and then scoops out most of the white part, leaving a little of it on the rim of the crust--which is heavily buttered (the inside of the crust)...He then drops the egg into the circles of thick slices of bread--and there you are. 10 October 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: When the first half of the 2nd game was dull I got a laugh out of a flip-crackling hot-dog vendor, who kept yelling: "Here ya are! Get ya hot franks--better known as Coney Island chicken!" From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 29 23:46:11 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:46:11 EST Subject: Gay (Winchell, 1933)(continued) Message-ID: From the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM, Walter Winchell´s column, 4 October 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _Of All Things._ No week, it seems, passes without some heckler pointing out that some of the expressions used here were pilfered from ancient times. For years now we have employed "go gay" when a new pair of lovers appear on the Broadway scene. "Soandso and soandso are going gay" is the phrase. Comes this bullet from a lad who asserts it may be found in the Bible (Old Testament). The citation is Baruch VI:9, the Epistle of Jeremy, and the varse is: "And taking gold, as it were, for a virgin who loveth to go gay." Things to worry about. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 29 23:53:31 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:53:31 EST Subject: Phoney (Winchell, 1933) Message-ID: From Walter Winchell´s column in the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM. 12 July 1933, pg. 2, col. 3: That Woolcott says he would like to know the origin of the word "phoney." Well, no dictionary is certain, either. The first time we heard it was in 1916, long before Al Smith helped popularize "baloney." In 1916 Broadwayites would say: "That's a lotta phoney'baloney!" 21 September 1933, pg. 2, col. 3: "Dear Winchell," writes F. G. Foster of Milwaukee, "not long ago you and Alexander Woolcott wanted to know the origin of 'phoney.' The word was originally 'Forney,' the name of an Eastern manufacturer of cheap jewelry. "When I was a kid in New York and Philadelphia and those spurious gem merchants made the rounds showing a piece of junk--we always said: 'Aw, that's a Forney!' Our snide way of saying it was cheap, false and counterfeit." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 30 00:02:33 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:02:33 EST Subject: Aviation Slang (Winchell, 1933) Message-ID: From Walter Winchell´s column in the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM. 6 June 1933, pg. 2, col. 3: Bogart Rogers, war ace and author of the screen play "The Eagle and the Hawk," forwards these bits of aviation slang: A plane is always a crate, a bus or a ship...Aerial torpedoes are pills...An officer who stays on the ground is a kee-wee...A parachute is a jump-stick or an umbrella...A battle is a show...Firing a machine gun is "singing a song." 9 June 1933, pg. 2, col. 3: _Add Slanguage._ Karl Kopetzky adds this aviation slanguage: To start the motor of a plane is to "wind her" or "give her the commerce"...To give her the gas is to "pour the soup"...You are hangar-flying or bunk-flying when you talk aviation. When you land you are "slapping it down." A plane is also a "galoopie"...You "goose" or "burp" the throttle when you open and close it quickly...A poor landing is an "arrival" and one in which you injure a wing is a "Chinese landing." If a pilot is a good pilot he's "hot" but if he's reckless "he's living on borrowed time." From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 30 00:08:00 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:08:00 -0600 Subject: Hollowed ground. Message-ID: Revisiting an earlier thread: On today's (29 Dec 01) ABC network evening newscast, I heard Paul Goldberger, the architecture critic of the NY Times, refer to the WTC site as 'hollowed ground'. I use the cat vowel. He used what I regard as the a-in-father vowel. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 30 00:08:33 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:08:33 EST Subject: Musician Slang (WInchell, 1933) Message-ID: From Walter Winchell´s column in the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM. 11 November 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _Add Slanguage._ Howard Snyder offers a few definitions in musician's slang, to wit: McGee means behind the times or small time...A lick is a solo interlude...Tin ear means no ear for melody or rhythm...A clinker is a sour note...Play it mean--means make it hot or very good...Ride is to "go to town"...Jam is to play it hotter than that...Get off means "start to ride"...Stock means common arrangements; nothing special...Horn is a trumpet or saxophone. An outsider who refers to a trumpet as a coronet will always draw a sneer. Likewise, a violin is always a fiddle! (See this in the old archives, it it's not destroyed. 1933 is a good date for "jam" and "lick" and the like--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 30 00:20:47 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:20:47 EST Subject: Baseball Slang (Winchell, 1933) Message-ID: From Walter Winchell´s column in the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM. 11 April 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _Baseball Slang._ A la carte--Playing the ball wirth one hand...Alibi Ike--Player who makes excuses for poor fielding or batting...Apple Orchard--Ballpark...Ash heap--A rough infield...Automatic Strike--The pitch when the count is three and nothing...Barber--A player who talks too much...Can of corn--High lazy fly...Collisions--College players...County fair--One who shows off--A grandstand player...Cousin--A pitcher who is easy to hit. 3 May 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _Add Baseball Slang._ "He's Dick Smith"--means a player who keeps to himself or one who never picks up the check..."Fancy Dan"--one who poses and puts on airs..."Duster"--a bean ball aimed at the head to keep the player from the plate..."Fishing Trip"--taking a swing at a bad ball..."Guesser" is an umpire..."He chokes in the clutch"--a player who isn't so good in a pinch..."He took a drink"--he struck out..."Hitchy-Koo--players given to fidgeting in the batter's box--nervous..."Holiday" is a double-header..."Jockey" is a player who teases or rides the other team.."Lamb" is a newcomer or a youngster..."Powerhouse"--a distance hitter..."Two O'Clock Hitter"--one who hits line drives in batting practice but pop flies in a game..."Uncle Charlie's got him"--he can't hit a curve...and "Rabbit Ears" is a player who hears everything said about him. (Gerald Cohen can check this with Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 30 00:40:37 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:40:37 EST Subject: "Lucky Break" and more (Winchell, 1933) Message-ID: From Walter Winchell's column in the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM. 2 February 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: Melancholywood. 17 May 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _Add Slanguage._ The following is some backstage slang overheard while playing at the Paramount Theatre: "Save it"--means put out the lights..."Hit 'em with a rifle"--put them on..."Strike it"--remove scenery..."Blimp" is a camera booth..."Sink"--to synchronize..."Put a silk on"--diffuse a lamp..."Break that broad's neck!"--tilt an arc lamp...""Pep up that broad!"--make a lamp better. 23 May 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _Study in Slanguage._ A heavily saturated with Wyoming Ketchup Pete-man was doing a little chesty chatter before a group of novices in the same racket. "Say," he began, "when I was in my prime I only done big tings. Only once did I flooze it up. I was loaded with nose-paint caressing a box dat had more locks on it den Hoodeenee! But I gave it too much soup--and blew 200 Gs into a lotta confetti, an' an exit for meself tru de ceilin'--an' before I knew it--I was chinnin' meself on da moon!" Pete-man (safe-cracker)...Wyoming Ketchup (hooch)...Box (safe)...Soup (TNT)...200 Gs ($200,000)...Nose-paint (pre-war). 9 September 1933, pg. 2, col. 3: _Things I Never Knew Before._ (...) That in the old days when they wanted to trim a sucker they sold him the Brooklyn Bridge. (Winchell never knew this before?--ed.) 21 October 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: "You're nuttier than a fruitcake" has only been in nine movies this year. 26 October 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _ORIGIN._ They were gabbing about the origin of "lucky break" again yesterday. One of us remarked that it is supposed to have come from circus slang meaning bad weather it it rained, snowed or chilled it "broke bad," etc. This argument, however, seemed more like it. One lad thought it came from the pool rooms many years ago. If a player pocketed one or more pills on the first break it was a "lucky break." 3 November 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: I see that the expression "Too, too divine!" (which has become "devoon" until I could choke) is said to have originated in Hollywood...Quiteso--after Tallulah Bankhead brought it there...But when Bankhead shieks it--she means it derisively. From lnielsen79 at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Dec 30 04:16:08 2001 From: lnielsen79 at EARTHLINK.NET (Lisa Nielsen) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:16:08 -0800 Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?UmU6ICAgICAgW7GksO1dILzSv6zAzLChIMPfw7XHz7TCILv1svYg?= =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?tb+/tbvzICgxOby8wMy787D8tvcp?= Message-ID: Remove me from list Immediately ----- Original Message ----- From: 소연이 To: Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 12:43 PM Subject: [광고] 소연이가 추천하는 새끈 동영상 (19세이상관람) > Carsex24 추천 사이트 [미스누드] missnude.co.kr > Carsex24 추천 사이트 [미스누드] missnude.co.kr > > > > 현재 최다가입자를 보유 > 자체제작 100% 한국모델만 사용 > 60분이상 러닝타임의 풀버젼영화 > 단편무비 업데이트, 패티쉬전문 > 지연셀프카메라, 누드패티쉬, 패티쉬영상 > 안정된 구성 빠른 다운로드 속도 > 꾸준한 업데이트를 자랑하는 곳이네요 > 관심있는분들 둘러보세요 > 1개월 맴버쉽 - 12000원 > 3개월 맴버쉽 - 30000원 > (핸드폰결제가능) > Carsex24가 적극추천하는 유료사이트입니다. > > 미스누드둘러보기 > > > > > > > > From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 30 05:17:34 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:17:34 -0500 Subject: "MOTHER FUCKER" transparent? [was: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries] In-Reply-To: <3C2B8B9E.FB8EDB7F@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: >This professor, may he rest in peace, had a doctorate in English from >the University of London. His dissertation on a minor Victorian author >was published by the author's cousin who ran a book publishing company >in Australia. His editors apparently did a good copy-editing job on the >manuscript. The text was flawless as far as I could see, but for obvious >reasons, they dared not touch the Dedication, which read: "To my mother >for her inordinate affection [to me]..." The editors probably thought, >Hey, if something had been going on between mother and son, who are we >to put in our two cents worth? > >Now, as all English experts and others (including learners beyond a >certain grade level) know, "inordinate affection/love," is a >collocational phrase that means something bad, very bad, in the contexts >in which it is used. (Questions of sexual orientation would not be >relevant). It occurs frequently in ascetical Christian religious >literature, as in the socalled "Rodriguez" (Rodrigues?) volumes. >"Inordinate," by morphology and definition, is negative in meaning >("disorderly or immoderate") and Rodriguez would be referring to >homosexual and such affections, as betwen religious who have taken the >vow of chastity; "particular friendship" is another term referring to >the same concept in the above contexts. Incestuous love is included in >the meaning of the term. > >When the phrase is applied to one's mother, I suppose the >uncollocational semi-transparent idiomatic term "mother fucker" comes to >mind. .... Now, just a moment. I'm a learner of English at a relatively high grade level, and I don't have any problem at all with that dedication as quoted. Perhaps the restriction on "inordinate love/affection" is itself restricted, perhaps to certain religious contexts with which I'm not very familiar. My quick Web search does turn up a lot of religiously-oriented material in which "inordinate" means "improper" or worse. But in the above quotation it seems perfectly innocent to me, with "inordinate" at most meaning something like "excessive" (here perhaps used for 'mild self-deprecation' as in "You are too kind", "This is more than I deserve", etc.) and possibly meaning merely "unrestrained". Had I been the editor, I would have passed it without a thought; had I (as editor) received a specific query about it, I would have said that it looked perfectly fine (although "inordinate" would not be my own first-choice word here). Here are a few other examples: Anne Bronte, "The Tenant of Wildfell Hall" (Ch. 43): <<'She [the new governess] is a very estimable, pious young person,' said he; 'you needn't be afraid. Her name is Myers, I believe; and she was recommended to me by a respectable old dowager: a lady of high repute in the religious world. I have not seen her myself, and therefore cannot give you a particular account of her person and conversation, and so forth; but, if the old lady's eulogies are correct, you will find her to possess all desirable qualifications for her position: an inordinate love of children among the rest.'>> Autobiography of Konrad Lorenz (Nobel Prize, 1973): <> Web column in "Al-Ahram Weekly On-line" (Egypt) [referring to the "mother-in-law" stereotype]: <> I think "inordinate" = "immoderate"/"unrestrained" or so in all of these and I do not think there are any sexual connotations. -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 30 14:01:42 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:01:42 -0500 Subject: U and Non-U In-Reply-To: <2a103329c53c.29c53c2a1033@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: Does anyone have handy the precise bibliographical citation for Alan S. C. Ross's 1954 article, "U and Non-U: An Essay in Sociological Linguistics"? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sun Dec 30 14:17:03 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:17:03 -0000 Subject: U and Non-U Message-ID: as cited in the OED2: 1954 A. S. C. Ross in Neuphilologische Mitteilungen LV. 21 (title) U and non-U ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Shapiro" To: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 2:01 PM Subject: U and Non-U > Does anyone have handy the precise bibliographical citation for Alan S. C. > Ross's 1954 article, "U and Non-U: An Essay in Sociological Linguistics"? > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Sun Dec 30 18:23:33 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 13:23:33 -0500 Subject: Medial -/t/- (was New Britain, Conn) Message-ID: then there's my home town, ATlanta /Itlaen@/, where people are mostly oblivious that the native t-less pronunciation is stigmatized by well, you know, all those Yankees who've moved here. I suppose because the t is dropped in the place name, it is lost in the derivative Atlantan as well (n at n, variant nt at n, but n?n as in Clinton is not possible). Ellen Ellen Johnson Assistant Professor of Linguistics Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing Berry College, Box 350 Mt. Berry, GA 30149 706-368-5638 http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ ejohnson at berry.edu -----Original Message----- From: Alice Faber [mailto:faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU] Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 12:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Medial -/t/- (was New Britain, Conn) Rudolph C Troike said: >This South Texan pronounces medial -/t/- in 'bottle', 'latter' as a voiced >stop (i.e. [d]), so that 'latter' and 'ladder' are homophonous, as in the >old conundrum, "The carpenter put down his ladder and saw, and then picked >up the [laed at r]. Which one did he pick up?" In British RP the -/t/- is >voiceless and aspirated. I'm not sure what Beverly meant by calling the >pronunciation of 'Clinton', 'Scranton', etc. "disputed" (I think that's >the term she used -- I can't check now). I have an unreleased [t] followed >by a syllabic nasal. Again, Rosemary Church on CNN and many news >announcers (I think even Dan Rather, when he tries) keep a tertiarily >stressed schwa in the final syllable of 'Clinton', etc., making it -[t at n]. All my notes on glottal stop for /t/ in New England are in the lab, so this is from memory. I believe that in this area, you find a fair amount of variability in /ntn/ sequences, as in Clinton*, Scranton. Clinton is a suburb of New Haven, and its pronunciation isn't remarked upon. Groton, like Clinton, is universally pronounced with a [?] for /t/, and, in both towns, "local" pronunciations are stigmatized. (Marianna Di Paolo told me that a similar phenomenon occurs with the pronunciation of Layton (Utah).) I *may* be imagining it, but I believe that the actual difference resides in the pronunciation of the syllabic [n]. The normal pronunciation is [?] followed by syllabic [n] (with no discernible vowel quality). However, one occasionally hears [?] followed by an ultra-short copy of the vowel preceding [?], followed by [n]. So what's stigmatized is [brI?In] not [brI?n]. *As I was composing this, my first thought was that, well of course Clinton doesn't have [?]; the preceding /n/ blocks the change of /t/ to [?]. Then I said it out loud: [klIn?n]. So much for introspection! Alice From carljweber at MSN.COM Sun Dec 30 21:32:29 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:32:29 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Etymological_Notes:_=22Love=22_=28semi-long=29?= Message-ID: Etymological Notes: "Love" (semi-long) Carl Jeffrey Weber LOVE We pick up with a dedication <<< "To my mother for her inordinate affection [to me]..." The editors probably thought, Hey, if something had been going on between mother and son, who are we to put in our two cents worth? >>> The pick up continues, <<< "inordinate affection/love," is a collocational phrase that means something bad, very bad, in the contexts in which it is used. (Questions of sexual orientation would not be relevant). It occurs frequently in ascetical Christian religious literature. "Inordinate," by morphology and definition, is negative in meaning >>> . I suspect something going on here like "heads you win, tails I lose". "Inordinate love" is NOT equivalent to "inordinate affection" in historical English. Pop usage be what it may. It seems "inordinate" can be a euphemism for the polite/opprobrious "bad". We use a different word today for the opprobrious bad: "Inappropriate". (And the word "inappropriate" collocates better with the word "touching".) "Inordinate/inappropriate" can each suggest "excessive" or "abusive," or "to a fault." Of note - "not being ordered or ordinary", and also, "not being apropos", are not necessarily bad. But here they are linguistically marked for bad, as when someone has an "attitude". Everybody knows you can have a good OR bad attitude, but if someone says you have one, they always mean a bad one -- like a person has a "condition". It is always a bad thing. The topic though, analyzes the language of a DEDICATION. Wouldn't this suggest a polite and courteous register of language use? <<< . Hey, if something had been going on between mother and son, who are we to put in our two cents worth? >>> Douglas Wilson: <<< Now, just a moment. I'm a learner of English at a relatively high grade level, and I don't have any problem at all with that dedication as quoted.>>> Doug says the expression "inordinate love/affection" is <<< perhaps used for 'mild self-deprecation' as in "You are too kind", "This is more than I deserve", etc.) and possibly meaning merely "unrestrained". Had I been the editor, I would have passed it without a thought; had I (as editor) received a specific query about it, I would have said that it looked perfectly fine (although "inordinate" would not be my own first-choice word here) >>> Doug then goes on to give usage data from Anne Bronte and Konrad Lorenz to show two examples of "inordinate love" as a good thing, and then gives an example of a bad meaning, "a possessive mother's inordinate love" which has the negative sense of excessive to a fault, etc. (Notwithstanding the original was "inordinate affection", not "love"), Doug says "inordinate love" = "immoderate" or "unrestrained love". It "doesn't have any sexual connotations." The register of language in the topic example accords it the register that is, among other things, polite and courteous. This seems right to me, and the Lack of Sexual Connotation School of linguistic interpretation wins over the Saturday Night Live School. The topic opened with "inordinate AFFECTION". An intermediary comment then associated "AFFECTION with LOVE", as equivalents, and next Doug gaves examples of "inordinate LOVE". ///////////////////////////// Are not "love" and "affection" inappropriately associated here? Our modern word "love" is a blend of two Old English roots. One meant "to like", the other meant "to praise". The modern word "love" is a blend of those two words, which is why you can speak of the "love" of the most trivial thing, and then of the "love" of God. It's in the first instance that "to love" means "to like" and in the second that "to love" means "to praise" (God). Now, accepted as an English word, "praise" was borrowed from the French subsequent to the Norman Conquest in 1066. In historical English usage, the "lover" was always the boy. The girl's "lover" was not so named because he "made love" to her -- "made love" today is a euphemism for either, 1., technical medical words, or 2., ones straight out of society's linguistic gutter. The language's most famous four letter word is allowed as a synonym for "make love". And then, that same four letter word is used as possibly equivalent to "rot" as a condemnative, I'll call it, as in "rotten idiot". "Love" as it comes from our basic Old English has nothing to do with sex - sex being what the boy and the girl, as expressed in the English language of today, HAVE with each other. "Love", here means, "to really really REALLY like a whole lot, and nothing more than like to the tenth power. "Praise be to God", was in Old English, "Love God!" "To love God" does not mean "to like Him a whole whole lot". One can show love (i.e., that you "like" something or somebody a whole lot) affectively, and this "affection" is externalizing behavior. This is not implied in the English word "love". "Affection" is warm and fuzzy affect, whereas "to really like, a whole lot, more than anything or anybody in the whole world," is all there is, and nothing more. But what of the word "love" as the "real special bond" the boy and girl have for each other? It seems an extension of the meaning "to mega-like". There is no special word. We must go to the Romance languages for the words of special bonding between the sexes, with a Western Valentines kind of love that is perhaps in the "mar-' roots. English has words for bonding between the sexes, like "betroth" and "wed". The "mar", though, I strongly suspect, did more than simply come through Latin for "young girl" - i.e., probably maiden (cf. Pallas Athena, Joan of Arc, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, etc.). In Mexico today they can say "All the little Maria's all over Mexico". Perhaps "mar" is same sourced in "marry" and "martial" - seen in the second millennium BC as the "oh my hero" theme, going way back on the IE Oriental side, and eventually spread with the Pax Romana But, on the Occidental side, consider the song, "What's Love Got to Do with It". It's about a female sexual availability script in which the guys immediately proceed to home plate sometime between sundown and sunrise. Presumably everybody would be externalizing behaviors of warm and fuzzy affect, affectionate "shows" of "love" - "yes darling.", or, "yea baby, I DO love you". Isn't "love" erroneously equated with "affection", and "love and affection" are both synonymized with "sex". Our language is being synonymized through guilt by association. Even makin' "whoopee" never got far beyond first base before it fell in the gutter.Too bad. The boys and girls should learn good definitions in middle school - the usage in pop culture be what it may. They hear more standard English and three syllable words on the Simpsons than they get all day in Chicago schools. Conclusion: When he says thank you for your "inordinate love" it is good with no sexual connotations in the identified register. It is not bad!!! "Inordinate affection", however, could be good, could be bad, and doesn't strictly have to do with the word "love" that developed from two Old English roots meaning "like" and "praise". From carljweber at MSN.COM Sun Dec 30 21:54:59 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:54:59 -0600 Subject: Etymology Notes: "Blessed" Message-ID: Etymology Notes: "Blessed" Carl Jeffrey Weber BLESSED The expression "blessed terrorism" came up in the news regarding Bin Laden's third videotape. The newscaster used the two-syllable form of the "blessed" word and put the main accent on TER-. "Bles-sed TER-or-is'm." If the accent is: "BLES-sed terroris'm," or "BLES-sed TERroris'm" makes a difference. It came off natural the way she said it. (It's the way you say "Blessed Virgin" that makes it mean blest or blessed or damned.) /////////// Lisa Wittenberg wrote (EDITED BY CJW) <<>> [Douglas Wilson points out that the adjective is EITHER way.] Here are other examples of this process, with the number of syllables unchanged: "The spilt milk." vs "The spilled milk" (spilled is one syllable). "Spilt" forefronts the fact of having been spilled, the result continuing; "Spilled" forefronts the continuing result, the act assumed and in the background. Another example of two adjectival uses made from the same past participle, with no need to add a syllable: spelt/spelled (spelled is one syllable). "A properly spelt word." vs "A properly spelled word." The voiced consonant "l" at the ends of "spill" and "spell" allows the addition of either preterit marker ("-t" or "-d") to make the distinction in meaning here pointed out. In the following, notice the (voiced) nasal giving the same phenomenon with "burnt" and "burned" -- no extra syllable needed. One meaning emphasized the act, the other the continuing result. //////////// "Blest" (one syllable) forefronts the fact of the act (of having been blessed), the result of the act continuing. "Bless-ed" (two syllables), forefronts the continuing result, the act assumed (and in the background, as having had occurred). Obviously, the way you say the phrase makes it swearing in a bad sense or swearing in a good sense. (Swear like a sailor on his way to hell or a penitent sinner at the gates of St. Peter.). The unvoiced ending of "bless", the word under discussion, requires the addition of another syllable for what Doug called the "stretched version". The same with "curst" and "curs-ed". Two syllables. Another, "proved/proven", is on a Norman root (although "prooft" is not historically uncommon). Another, from the Roman era of loan words into Britanniae before English officially started, "spent" and "expended". Others are the "gilt lily" and "the gild (or gilded) lily"; "I beg ya' darlin', on my bent knee... on bended knee." There seem to be a limited number of phonemic possibilities in basic Old English: (-lt and -ld), (-st and -sed), (-nt and -nd). The distiction in meaning is apparent between "stripe shirt" (with a lost! preterit marker) and "strip-ped bass". One has perfective and the other durative qualities. What is this phenomenon called? From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Sun Dec 30 22:33:08 2001 From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:33:08 -0500 Subject: Random House Historical Dictionary Message-ID: Given the untimely demise of the Random House Dictionary Division, does anyone know what is to become of the Historical Dictionary of American Slang project? -- Evan Morris words1 at word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Sun Dec 30 22:41:17 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:41:17 -0500 Subject: Etymology Notes: "Blessed" In-Reply-To: <004401c1917c$a1cb1de0$7b351342@computer> Message-ID: Maybe "she" used two syllables, but Dan Rather (predictably) used just one when he read the same lines. At 03:54 PM 12/30/01 -0600, you wrote: >Etymology Notes: "Blessed" > >Carl Jeffrey Weber > >BLESSED > >The expression "blessed terrorism" came up in the news regarding Bin Laden's >third videotape. The newscaster used the two-syllable form of the "blessed" >word and put the main accent on TER-. "Bles-sed TER-or-is'm." If the accent >is: "BLES-sed terroris'm," or "BLES-sed TERroris'm" makes a difference. It >came off natural the way she said it. (It's the way you say "Blessed Virgin" >that makes it mean blest or blessed or damned.) > >/////////// > >Lisa Wittenberg wrote >(EDITED BY CJW) > > ><<Blessed as an adjective is /blEs ed/ > >Are there other examples of this process? > >Perhaps, "blest" is OE spelling, but the pronunciation would persist with >the regular preterit spelling. Can anyone comment on the adjective >pronunciation? Is it an emphatic usage started in the church (Blessed >Virgin) that has become accepted? or is there another story here? >>> > >[Douglas Wilson points out that the adjective is EITHER way.] > >Here are other examples of this process, with the number of syllables >unchanged: > >"The spilt milk." vs "The spilled milk" (spilled is one syllable). > >"Spilt" forefronts the fact of having been spilled, the result continuing; > >"Spilled" forefronts the continuing result, the act assumed and in the >background. > > >Another example of two adjectival uses made from the same past participle, >with no need to add a syllable: spelt/spelled (spelled is one syllable). "A >properly spelt word." vs "A properly spelled word." > >The voiced consonant "l" at the ends of "spill" and "spell" allows the >addition of either preterit marker ("-t" or "-d") to make the distinction in >meaning here pointed out. In the following, notice the (voiced) nasal giving >the same phenomenon with "burnt" and "burned" -- no extra syllable needed. >One meaning emphasized the act, the other the continuing result. > >//////////// > >"Blest" (one syllable) forefronts the fact of the act (of having been >blessed), the result of the act continuing. > >"Bless-ed" (two syllables), forefronts the continuing result, the act >assumed (and in the background, as having had occurred). Obviously, the way >you say the phrase makes it swearing in a bad sense or swearing in a good >sense. (Swear like a sailor on his way to hell or a penitent sinner at the >gates of St. Peter.). > >The unvoiced ending of "bless", the word under discussion, requires the >addition of another syllable for what Doug called the "stretched version". >The same with "curst" and "curs-ed". Two syllables. > >Another, "proved/proven", is on a Norman root (although "prooft" is not >historically uncommon). Another, from the Roman era of loan words into >Britanniae before English officially started, "spent" and "expended". > >Others are the "gilt lily" and "the gild (or gilded) lily"; "I beg ya' >darlin', on my bent knee... on bended knee." > >There seem to be a limited number of phonemic possibilities in basic Old >English: (-lt and -ld), (-st and -sed), (-nt and -nd). The distiction in >meaning is apparent between "stripe shirt" (with a lost! preterit marker) >and "strip-ped bass". One has perfective and the other durative qualities. >What is this phenomenon called? _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 30 22:55:09 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:55:09 -0500 Subject: "MOTHER FUCKER" transparent? [was: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries] In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011229175045.00ab1200@nb.net> Message-ID: It has been suggested that "love" might be a little different from "affection". In the context of the book dedication in question, I believe these words are virtually synonymous. Still, here are a few examples with "inordinate affection", all without any carnal implications IMHO: "The Bishop and His Cats", in "The New-England Magazine" (1834): <> "The Blackfeet Indians", in "Appletons' Journal" (1877): <> Web discussion of Protestant versus Catholic 'extremisms': <> -- Doug Wilson From Ittaob at AOL.COM Mon Dec 31 01:16:14 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:16:14 EST Subject: Hollowed ground. Message-ID: When I was attending Catholic grade school in Queens, NY in the 1950s, the Lord's Prayer began for us "Our Father, who art in heaven, hollowed be thy name..." Steve Boatti From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Dec 31 09:25:05 2001 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 02:25:05 -0700 Subject: Spilt/spilled milk Message-ID: In "Don't cry over spilt/spilled milk", either pronunciation is possible for me, with no differentiation in meaning. My impression is that the "spilt" form is almost entirely British, its survival in American being vestigial. The alternation is not, I think, possible with all words even in British English. One example which comes to mind is "I have learnt my lesson" vs "He is a *learnt/learn-ed man", where the two past participles have gone separate ways. Conversely, at least in US English, one may have a burnt/burned match (though I suspect "burnt" is obsolescing), but not a *burn-ed match. Rudy From sago8572 at NETSGO.COM Mon Dec 31 11:39:37 2001 From: sago8572 at NETSGO.COM (ȼö) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 20:39:37 +0900 Subject: ƴ 𸣴Ŀ õ![] Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Dec 31 12:17:58 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 07:17:58 -0500 Subject: Hollowed ground. In-Reply-To: <126.96de5ed.2961165e@aol.com> Message-ID: Are we having some phonetic realization of phoneme problem in the hallowed-hollowed discussion? Vowels before /r/ are notoriously retracted (F2) and the phonetic realization of an /ae/ before an /l/ could clearly be heard as a phonetic [a] (or even farther back) and misinterpreted as an example of phoneic /a/ rather than /ae/. Of course, it's difficult to tell when such phonetically cued "misinterpretations" involve phonemic reclassification, but most of us reckon that historical linguistics is a psycholinguistic phenomenon as well. dInIs >When I was attending Catholic grade school in Queens, NY in the 1950s, the >Lord's Prayer began for us "Our Father, who art in heaven, hollowed be thy >name..." > >Steve Boatti -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Dec 31 17:53:36 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:53:36 EST Subject: Spilt/spilled milk Message-ID: In a message dated 12/31/2001 4:29:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU writes: > One example which comes to mind is "I have learnt my > lesson" vs "He is a *learnt/learn-ed man", where the two past participles > have gone separate ways. Conversely, at least in US English, one may have > a burnt/burned match (though I suspect "burnt" is obsolescing), but not > a *burn-ed match. I can't help thinking of modern poetry, in which the tendency is not to have the verse scan. In the 19th century, when most verse did scan, there was a convention that the final "-ed" could always be split off into a syllable by itself if necessary for the scansion. For example, "Casey at the Bat" (I'm quoting from memory) "But Flynn preceded Casey, and likewise so did Blake And the former was a puddin', and the latter was a fake..." "But Flynn let drive a single, to the wonderment of all And the much despis-ed Blakely tore the cover off the ball So when the dust had settled and they saw what had occurred There was Blakely safe on second, and Flynn a-hugging third" Not only was "despised" given three syllables to make the line scan, but "hugging" also acquired an extra syllable and in the previous stanza the unlov-ed Mr. Blakely lost a syllable off his name. Conclusion: with the long-standing current fashion for non-scanning poetry, modern-day readers and listeners have forgotten that the "-ed" used to, sometimes, be pronounced when a poet decided it be necessary, and hence simply do not expect -ed to ever be a separate syllable. - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 31 20:02:29 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 15:02:29 EST Subject: Cuban Cocktails and much more (long!) Message-ID: Happy new year and greetings from Havana, Cuba. I fly home tomorrow, January 1st. CUBA SI--"Cuba Yes!" A popular slogan. !VIVA LA REVOLUTION! 1959-2002 43 ANOS DE VICTORIAS--A sign outside the Hotel Nacional. It's sad. We should be friends. The Cuban people themselves have been friendly to Americans. BOTELLA--To ride or hitch-hike. JINETERA--Prostitutes. MARICON--A gay person. TORTILLERA--A lesbian. The tour guide smacked/clapped his hands to show that two lesbians are like two tortillas. (FWIW: There are only two Mexican restaurants here. The Mexican influence is surprisingly small--ed.) GRANDMOTHER'S SOUP--Served at the popular El Aljibe restaurant (founded 1946) that I ate at last night. Grandma didn't give me the recipe. CREOLE MOJITO--The suggested drink at the El Aljibe. SLOPPY JOE'S--It's too bad that it went bust in the 1940s, or it would still be here. There's no trace of the famous bar in today's Havana. I was told that it was located near my hotel. FLORIDITA--The place is still around, near my hotel and at the end of the main drag. It claims to be the home of the daiquiri. SANDWICH CRIOLLO--Their name for the Cuban sandwich/hero/sub or what have you. BAKERY ITEMS (illustrated outside a bakery in Havana): PAN FRANCES MANZANITA CANGREJITO LUNCH ROSA DULCE ROLLY TORCIDA PULMAN CARACOL TARTALETA CUNARTA KAKE From the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM, 28 January 1933, pg, 1, col. 7 ad: TRY CUBA-LIBRE Bottled in Splits Ironbeer mixed with Bacardi Rum Peppy and Invigorating These cocktails are served at the HOTEL TELEGRAFO (right next to my Golden Tulip Hotel at the Central Park): LIMONADA CLARETE PRESIDENTE MARTINI SECO CHARLES CHAPLIN COMPARI ORANGE SANGRIA CUBA LIBRE HABANA ESPECIAL DAIQUIRI FRAPPE CUBATA MOJITO SCREW DRIVER CUBANITO MARGARITA RON COLLINS PINA COLADA BRANDY ALEXANDER DAIQUIRI PAPA HEMINGWAY CAIPIRINHA (When oh when will OED add this?--ed.) BLACK RUSSIAN (Probably a 10-year OED wait--ed.) WHITE RUSSIAN VOLDKA (sic) MARTINI VOLDKA TONIC NON-ALCOHOLIC: SAN FRANCISCO (Appears to be the most popular "mocktail" here--ed.) ENSALADA DE FRUTAS The EL BAR at the HOTEL NACIONAL DE CUBA was kind enough to give me its drink menu: COCTELES CLASICOS CUBANOS: COCTEL NACIONAL--($3.50 U.S.) rum, apricot brandy and pineapple juice MOJITO--rum, sugar, lemon juice and soda DAIQUIRI--sugar, lemon juice and rum CUBA BELLA--grenadine, mint, lemon juice, silver dry rum and old rum BELLO MONTE--grenadine, cacao, sugar, lemon juice, rum and mint CUBANITO--lemon juice, salt, tabasco, tomato juice and rum HAVANA SPECIAL--rum, marraschino and pineapple juice PRESIDENTE--vermouth, curacao and rum MULATA--sugar, lemon juice, cacao and old rum CUBA LIBRE--rum and coke CENTENARIO--lemon juice, grenadine, triple sec, coffee liquor silver dry rum and old rum COCTELES INTERNACIONALES: PINA COLADA MARTINI NEGRONI MARGARITA SCREW DRIVER AMERICANO MANHATTAN CAIPIRINHA COCTELERIA ESPECIAL: AMARETTO ROSSO--jugo de naranja, ron 3 anos, amaretto, ron 7 anos COCTEL DEL SIGLO--jugo de naranja, mandarinetto, ron 3 anos, angostura COCTEL 70 ANOS--jugo de pina, ginebra, ron silver dry, curacao rojo SAMURAI--jugo de melocoton, jugo de naranja, Grand Marnier, Silver Dry COCTEL 1930--ron 3 anos, ginebra, jugo de limon, curacao azul, triple sec IL MIO RICETTARIO DI COCKTAIL CUBANI Ramon Pedreira Rodriguez Editorial Arte y Literature, Havana 87 pages, paperback, $4 1998 Bought at the Hotel Nacional gift shop, but not seen elsewhere. Only in Spanish. It's a little long for this post so I'll discuss the contents at another time, or if anyone is curious. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Dec 31 21:52:16 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 15:52:16 -0600 Subject: TAD = Thomas Aloysius Dorgan (cartoonist) Message-ID: TAD was the way cartoonist Thomas Aloysius Dorgan signed his works. And note Jonathan Lighter's introduction to his _Historical Dictionary of American Slang_, in which he comments about Leonard Zwilling's study of TAD: "Zwilling, Leonard. _A TAD Lexicon_, in _Etymology and Linguistic Principles III, edited by Gerald Cohen, Rolla, Mo: Gerald Cohen 1993. An inclusive glossary of the innovative slang and nonce vocabulary found in the work of Thomas A. Dorgan ('TAD') (1877-1929), a nationally syndicated cartoonist of the early twentieth century whose comic art helped popularize a number of slang expressions, including 'malarkey,' 'hard-boiled,' and 'kibitzer.' Informative introductory chapters, extensive dated citations from Dorgan's work and cross references to the OED and other standard sources." TAD, by the way, is still frequently credited with coining "hot dog" via his supposed Polo Grounds "hot dog" cartoon of the early 1900s. That cartoon never existed and has therefore never been located; and "hot dog" was in use already in college slang of the mid-1890s, well before TAD's 1904 arrival in NYC from San Francisco. I was honored to play a role in disseminating Zwilling's work on TAD. Also, I am grateful to Dennis for asking about the acronym and thereby giving me the opportunity to talk about the subject. --Gerald Cohen On 12/29/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Does this mean a little bitty ole one? > >dInIs (citing the only TAD he knows, although he reckons he'll be >blasted for this ignorance of acronyms; I wish there was a Barhardt >American Dictionary) > > > Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG (1998) has "19C, US" >>and "? broken English 'spikka da English.'" What cites does he have??--ed.) >>> >> >>To date, other than this, a TAD one for 1908 (thanks to L. Zwilling). >> >>JG > >-- >Dennis R. Preston From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Dec 31 22:19:57 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:19:57 -0500 Subject: binky Message-ID: This is interesting. I also see that if I were not a paper-fixated old codger who still looks words up in dictionaries, I could have learned this through Google. However, now I wonder whether there was a pre-existing word "binky". If not, why would such a word be coined as a trademark for a pacifier? The reason for coining "playtex" as a trademark for a girdle or "kleenex" for a tissue nose-wipe are understandable. But since "binky" doesn't show up in dictionaries, I'm not likely to ever know whether the word came before the trademark. My reason for thinking that it may have is that my wife has told me that she only recalls hearing her mother use the word binky once, and that only a few years ago, when the two were looking at old family photos. A photo of a baby with a pacifier lead the mother-in-law to say, "that's me with my binky". This suggests that "binky" was perhaps her family's word for pacifier, ca. 1905, since it wasn't the old one's usual word. We don't remember her using any distinctive word for pacifier when her grandchildren were infants. She and her sisters and about everyone else from that generation are now dead. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Baker, John" Date: Saturday, December 29, 2001 4:39 pm Subject: Re: binky > My wife, from eastern Massachusetts, has this, and I was initially mystified. It turns out that Binky is a registered trademark for pacifiers, currently owned, I believe, by Playtex Products, and apparently used since 1935. > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: George Thompson [SMTP:george.t hompson at NY U.EDU] > > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 12:33 PM > > To: ADS-L at LIST SERV.UGA.E DU > > Subject: binky > > > > My wife calls my attention to Bill Gallo's cartoon in the Daily > News of > > December 23, 2001, p. 82. In the lower right corner of the > drawing is > > a diapered baby, with a pacifier in its mouth. There is a label > > reading "binky, the ol' reliable" and an arrow pointing to the > pacifier.> > > This caught my wife's attention because her mother had called > > pacifiers "binkies". I've never heard the word and don't find it in > > the usual dictionaries. DARE has (1) "any little mechanical > > contrivance" from 1912 and (2) as the answer to the question "the > part> of the body that you sit on", 1968. > > > > The lamented mother-in-law was born in southwestern Penn. in > about 1904 > > to a family with roots there of several generations, and she lived > > there all of her life. I know that Bill Gallo is a New Yorker old > > enough to have been in the marines during WWII, and his last name > > suggests to me that he is not Scots Presbyterian. > > > > GAT > > > > George A. Thompson > > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", > Northwestern> Univ. Pr., 1998. > > > > > > ************ ************ ************ ******* > > * This email has been scanned for viruses * > > * Stradley Ronon Stevens & Young, LLP * > > ************ ************ ************ ******* > > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 31 09:26:07 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:26:07 +0800 Subject: FW: New Britain, Connecticut In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:12 PM -0500 12/27/01, Frank Abate wrote: >What Alice refers to below is true in native central CT dialect. Words >affected include mountain, mitten, and the like, with (expected) medial >flapped-t being realized as a glottal stop, when followed by syllabic n. >These speakers do not have the glottal stop in words such as bottle, as >characteristic of NYC dialects. I do not know of other clear markers to >this dialect. It is an r-ful dialect, as are most to the west of the >Connecticut River, within the state. > >This from personal observation (over about 20 years as a resident of the >area) by a lexicographer, not formally trained in phonetics. > >larry (horn), further comments? > >Frank Abate > Well, yes, since you asked (sorry to reply before reading the other messages in the thread, but I'm just back from a family Christmas trip and getting ready for the LSA/ADS so my online time is limited)-- The speech pattern Frank describes characterizes my daughter (now 17) but not my son (19), even though they both grew up in metro New Haven. Maybe it has to do with the friends they've each hung out with, but there it is. (Actually I'm not sure my daughter ALWAYS has [?] for the medial /t/ in "mitten" (as you predict, never in "bottle"); I may just be noticing it when she does, but I'm pretty sure nobody else in the family has it, not even the cats.) larry From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Dec 31 22:57:11 2001 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:57:11 -0600 Subject: Cuban Cocktails and much more (long!) Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > Happy new year and greetings from Havana, Cuba. (snip) Go to 8th st in Miami and have a "Little Lie" which is the anti-castro version of a Cuba Libre From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Dec 31 16:01:23 2001 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 09:01:23 -0700 Subject: FW: New Britain, Connecticut Message-ID: From: Beverly Flanigan > The "expected" medial consonant here would not be the > flapped-t, which is heard in 'butter', 'fatter', 'bottle', > etc. in "ordinary" American English. The glottal stop IS > common in 'mountain' and 'mitten', and not just in CT; but > the alternate form is [t], as in NYC, if I'm not mistaken. > But does NYC use [t] in 'bottle'? Surely not the glottal > stop, which is used in this word in much Brit. Eng. but > not in Am. Eng., as far as I know. > The words I cite in class as "disputed" in Am. Eng. are > generally proper names, like Clinton, Scranton, Hinton, > etc., where spelling pronunciation tends to produce [t] > medially (foreign reporters routinely pronounce the first > ex. with [t], RP style). New Britain would fall under this > same rubric. It doesn't seem to me that 'mountain' and > 'mitten' and button' etc. are regionally differentiated > outside of NYC/NJ--but I'm open to disputation. I find it rather interesting that the (mainly northern and central) Utahns i've talked to about this are quite painfully aware of their use of a glottal stop in words like mountain, Clinton, Scranton, &c. (I don't include mitten in the list--that's pronounced here with a glottal stop, but the social awareness appears only to extend to morphemes that might underlyingly end with a /n.t at n/ sequence.) The interesting thing is that i say people here are *painfully* aware of that pronunciation on purpose--there tends to be a belief that it's a regionalism, and a particularly low-status regionalism to boot. Of course, i my Southern Maryland self use a glottal stop in those words, and i know a glottal stop is used gobs of other places, but Utahns tend to be convinced that nobody else would ever do something quite so horrid. There's just a *little* bit of linguistic insecurity out here, you see... :-/ David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From bivyjr at DELLEPRO.COM Sat Dec 22 05:41:08 2001 From: bivyjr at DELLEPRO.COM (Billy Ivy) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 00:41:08 -0500 Subject: Request for texts/articles of authentic Appalachian/other American Dialect. Message-ID: I am currently conducting a research on non-standard American English expressions, and particularly on sentences reflecting the following construction: modal + have + past tense (instead of past participle) Example: "I should have DID it sooner!" This is the type of phrase used by a family originally from the Boone, NC area. Hence my questions: 1) Does this particular verbal structure reflect an authentic part of the Appalachian speech? 2) Where could I find authentic material (spoken or written) displaying that type of expression? Thank you for your help. Lydie leji71 at hotmail.com From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 1 01:36:15 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 19:36:15 -0600 Subject: Verbless slogans - A new trend? Message-ID: >Careful you don't confuse r-lessness (we ready) with copula deletion >(we ready). > >dInIs I wonder about this too, 'we a-ready' to the ear. It's almost as if someone bungled the spelling. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From paul at IMPLICATURE.COM Sat Dec 1 04:44:43 2001 From: paul at IMPLICATURE.COM (Paul Ivsin) Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:44:43 -0600 Subject: amber/yellow lights Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bowie" Well, if you're moving *really* fast, i *guess* the blue shift would make it look orange... David, wondering how fast you'd have to go to make it look green ----- FWIW, from http://www.fourmilab.ch/cship/doppler.html -- "There's an apocryphal story about the physicist who tried to beat a ticket for running a red light by telling the judge that at the speed he was approaching the signal, the red light was Doppler shifted so it appeared green. The judge pondered this for a few minutes and tore up the red light ticket. Then, seeing as the physicist would have to be driving about a quarter of the speed of light to see a red signal as green, the judge fined him 269 million dollars for speeding, one dollar for each kilometer per hour over the limit." Paul ... ... ... Paul Ivsin paul at ivsin.com From LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU Sat Dec 1 07:06:35 2001 From: LanceDM at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M. Lance) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:06:35 -0600 Subject: Verbless slogans - A new trend? Message-ID: It means "We ready to play anybody anytime anywhere" -- "eternal present." DMLance "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > I'm puzzled why "Every time we play the Tigers. we are ready" can't > refer to an upcoming event. > > 'We ready' surely does mean right now, and can, of course, be > extended to mean tbne moment of play (as I indicated). > > dInIs > > >I noticed that eight of thirteen players on last year's > >UCharleston team were African American, as well as the > >head coach. If the ratio is close to that this year > >too, is it possible that the team knew what they meant > >by "we be ready"? > > > >Herb Stahlke > >> From my own experience, I would suggest the following: > >> "We be ready" wouldn't be appropriate when referring to future events (e.g., > >> plans for the whole year) since the statement indicates a general present > >> habitual state, based on past [before the moment of speaking] occurrences > >> (e.g., Whenever we have to play the Tigers, we be ready" [="Every time we > >> play the Tigers, we are ready" or "Every time we played the Tigers, we were > >> ready" or "Every time we've played the Tigers, we have been ready."]) "We > >> ready" (=We are ready) is the better choice since it indicates a present > >> state of physical or mental preparedness for whatever happens in the near or > >> distant future. P-A-T > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Department of Linguistics and Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > preston at pilot.msu.edu > Office: (517)353-0740 > Fax: (517)432-2736 From lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG Sat Dec 1 07:03:14 2001 From: lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG (Linda Sparlin) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:03:14 -0600 Subject: "Sky west and crooked" Message-ID: Wondering if anyone has run across the origin of "Sky west and crooked" - to describe anything out of alignment or scattered or something moving in disorderly fashion. For instance: A hand-drawn line The part in a little girl's hair Any hand-crafted effort that turns out less than straight. A road with many curves and Y's. Birds (or animals or people) scattering "all sky west and crooked." In context "It (or They) went all sky west and crooked." or It goes (all) sky west and crooked." Commonly used 1940's to her death in 1964, by my grandmother in Tulsa, OK, (her birth in 1878 was in Whitley County, KY and upbringing in Franklin or Crawford County, AR, and eastern OK). Later used by my mother in OK and greater Kansas City, MO/KS. Crooked is self explanatory, but where did "sky west" come from? Linda Sparlin From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Dec 1 12:07:45 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 07:07:45 -0500 Subject: "Sky west and crooked" Message-ID: ?Sky West and Crooked? was the title (in USA, 1966) of a film directed and starring John Mills opposite his daughter Haley Mills. The story was written by John Mills' wife, Mary Hayley Bell. The title of the British release of the movie was ?Gypsy Girl.? The following quotation is found at [ http://www.silcom.com/~manatee/bartlett_courting.html ]http://www.silcom.com/~manatee/bartlett_courting.html ?And everything in Maguire (named after her father) is running smoothly under the able direction of Jake Williams, a full-fledged romantic hero, until Cass comes to town, and turns the whole community, and Jake, up-side-down, sky-west, and crooked.? It appears in a description of COURTING CASSIDY by Stephanie Bartlett reviewed by Patricia White 4/4/97. ?Time quotes a little newspaper down in Texas and we like what it said: ?Truly this is a world which has no regard for the established order of things, but knocks them sky west and crooked, and lo, the upstart hath the land and its fatness.'? ?Obscenity in the Arts,? by Vardis Fisher in _Eastern Idaho Farmer_, May 5, 1966 [http://library.boisestate.edu/special/fishercolumn/number44.htm] >From Harold Wentworth's _American Dialect Dictionary_: sky-western-crooked, adj. Helpless, senseless. 1908 e.Ala., w.Ga. [no quotes] Perhaps this is related to _knock someone skywest_, a variant of _knock someone galley west_ (in Chapman's revision of Wentworth and Flexner). Wentworth and Flexner show _galley west_ as meaning ?thoroughly; with great force; in confusion.? DARE shows the following in its etymology of _galley-west_: Varr of Engl dial. _collywest(on)_ contrarily, askew] chiefly Nth See Map Cf high, west, and crooked. At the entry for _galley-west_, HDAS (Lighter) attests knock galley-west as early as 1833. Mark Twain uses it in 1882 to mean ?destroy.? DARE shows _knock ... gally-west_ from 1875 (Twain). The regional information is sw Missouri and Minnesota. Under _high, west, and crooked_, DARE gives the meaning as ?In every direction, every which way.? The e.q. [earliest quote] is 1965. lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG,Net writes: >Wondering if anyone has run across the origin of "Sky west and crooked" >- to >describe anything out of alignment or scattered or something moving in >disorderly fashion. For instance: >A hand-drawn line >The part in a little girl's hair >Any hand-crafted effort that turns out less than straight. >A road with many curves and Y's. >Birds (or animals or people) scattering "all sky west and crooked." >In context "It (or They) went all sky west and crooked." or It goes >(all) >sky west and crooked." >Commonly used 1940's to her death in 1964, by my grandmother in Tulsa, >OK, >(her birth in 1878 was in Whitley County, KY and upbringing in Franklin >or >Crawford County, AR, and eastern OK). Later used by my mother in OK and >greater Kansas City, MO/KS. >Crooked is self explanatory, but where did "sky west" come from? Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Sat Dec 1 19:05:37 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:05:37 -0500 Subject: Verbless slogans - A new trend? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree that the spoken phrase could be r-less, but I doubt that the spelled version was "bungled." The R gemerally surfaces in spelling, even in strongly r-less dialects; just as it generally does not in orally intrusive /r/ speech when it's spelled. I'd still prefer to assume the spelling was deliberate and affirmative. At 07:36 PM 11/30/01 -0600, you wrote: >>Careful you don't confuse r-lessness (we ready) with copula deletion >>(we ready). >> >>dInIs > >I wonder about this too, 'we a-ready' to the ear. It's almost as if someone >bungled the spelling. > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > From white_angels_2000 at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 1 22:02:37 2001 From: white_angels_2000 at YAHOO.COM (Angels Of Light Int'l Music "") Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:02:37 -0800 Subject: Canadian, eh? Message-ID: The 1998 Canadian Oxford Dictionary - based on K. Barber's five-year-long research project - offers recent scientific evidence of how current "eh" is, classifying it as an informal Canadianism. This "kind of articulated question mark" (as W. Avis previously defined it) serves to (I'm quoting here) "ascertain the comprehension, continued interest, agreement, etc. of the person/s addressed." Interestingly, the attention-getting function seems to be the only distinctively Canadian usage of the interjection , since all other uses (e.g., inviting assent, expressing inquiry or surprise, asking for repetition or an explanation) are common to other Commonwealth countries and, to a lesser extent, the United States. According to the Cdn sociolinguist Jack Chambers, "eh" is a politeness marker which reflects Canadians' friendly attitude (e.g., "It's a lovely day, eh?" [my example]) . In "Guide to Canadian English Usage" (published in 1997), it is said that Canadians apparently use this question word more widely and more often than other anglophones, which is itself a typical feature of the English spoken in Canada. Context-wise, the guide's editors concur that the most stigmatized use of the word is the anecdotal one (? la McKenzie). My own field research has led me to think that it may be used more often by women (including teenagers and college students), and that it may be more commonly heard in Eastern Canada (Ontario and the Atlantic provinces) than it is out west (British Columbia, Alberta, and the Prairies). In summary, "eh" is still alive in Canadian English and can be considered to be a true Canadianism in terms of frequency and contextual distinctiveness. Dr. S. Roti Lexicographer __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com From jpparker at ISERV.NET Sun Dec 2 00:01:14 2001 From: jpparker at ISERV.NET (jane p parker) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 19:01:14 -0500 Subject: Canadian, eh? Message-ID: I always thought hoser male vs. hose-bag female, related to the sex organs. And that seemed to be the understanding among everyone I knew in Minnesota in the Mid-70's when "take off to the great white north" was a hit on the radio. I never saw sctv but everyone know the Mac Kenzie brothers and most Minnesotan teen-age guys identified with them. Where I lived there were a lot of kaynuks, old french/canadian families. Anyways calling someone a hoser was a pretty lewd thing to say. Jane P Parker From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 2 00:46:06 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 19:46:06 EST Subject: Guayquil ("Panama") Hat (1818); Sucre & Dollars Message-ID: GUAYQUIL ("PANAMA") HAT (continued) A NARRATIVE OF THE BRITON'S VOYAGE TO PITCAIRN'S ISLAND: INCLUDING AN INTERESTING SKETCH OF THE PRESENT STATE OF THE BRAZILS AND OF SPANISH SOUTH AMERICA by John Shillibeer Law and Whittaker, London 1818 Pg. 114: The trade carried on here is considerable from the different countries of Mexico, Quito and Chili: from whence they are supplied with pitch, tar and sulphur, with wines, spirits, wood, cocoa and Guayquil hats. (OED has 1833 for "Panama straw hat," which was probably manufactured in Guayaquil, Ecuador--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- SUCRE & DOLLARS OED states that the "sucre" is the monetary unit of Ecuador. This is wrong. It's U.S. dollars. I got off the plane and asked my tour guide about the exchange rate, and got a big stare. My tour guide often complained that U.S. money is difficult for Spanish speakers to understand. The dollars are all green and all of the same size. A dime says "ONE DIME"--whatever that is. People thought it was a penny because it's so small! I received an old Susan B. Anthony dollar coin, probably because someone thought it was a quarter. If you visit Ecuador, try not to use their money. Much of it is illegally printed in Colombia. Seen in Banos was a sign: "CHANGE DOLLARS." Don't do it! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 2 01:07:39 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 20:07:39 EST Subject: Taco (1927 sightings) Message-ID: BRIMSTONE AND CHILI: A BOOK OF PERSONAL EXPERIENCES IN THE SOUTHWEST AND IN MEXICO by Carleton Beals Alfred A. Knopf, NY 1927 Pg. 112 (Chapter on CAJEME): Late that afternoon--the purple waters of Guaymas Bay, and Empalme. Just outside the station we spent out twenty centavos for several _tacos_, with chili, and coffee; then walked through the tree-shaded town. Pg. 115: Calling to one of the vendors swarming on the platform, we invested our twenty-five centavos in _tacos_ and oranges--our first food of the day. Our purchases attracted a number of urchins, who came up all agog to the door of the box car to stare and question. -------------------------------------------------------- FRANCES TOOR'S GUIDE TO MEXICO Printed in Mexico City for 1933 Pg. 15: The _tacos_ are the Mexican sandwiches, rolled in _torillas_ instead of between bread. (No special mention is made in this book of Rio Frio or any other Mexican town specializing in "tacos." I went throught Toor's A TREASURY OF MEXICAN FOLKWAYS (1947), but it's not interesting for its food. "A RECIPE FOR MOLE AND TURKEY" is in his magazine MEXICAN FOLKWAYS, vol. 3, 1927, pages 238-239.--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- TACO MISC. CARPENTER'S WORLD TRAVELS: MEXICO by Frank G. Carpenter (Doubleday, Page & Co, Garden City, NY 1924) has a chapter on "FOOD AND DRINK BELOW THE RIO GRANDE, pages 171-181. "Taco" is never mentioned. I'll try to look at the MEXICAN HERALD (1890-1915) and the MEXICAN POST (1921-1922) in the Library of Congress on Monday. These were English language newspapers published in Mexico City. The NYPL has MODERN MEXICO (a weekly edition of the MEXICAN HERALD) up to 1909. "The Maguey and Pulque" is in February 16, 1909, pg. 1; "Making of Cocoanut Pulque" is in March 23, 1909, pg. 5; "Seeing Mexico City" ("turista") is in May 25, 1909, pg. 6. From dsgood at VISI.COM Sun Dec 2 05:22:00 2001 From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 23:22:00 -0600 Subject: dialects not changing for centuries? Message-ID: >From a discussion on the newsgroup rec.arts.sf.composition (for discussion of writing and selling sf/fantasy/_)" ------- Forwarded message follows ------- In article _, _ says... > On Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:22:15 -0600, Dan Goodman > wrote: > > >In article says... > >> There's islands in the Chesapeake Bay where the accent & dialect is > >> hundreds of years old English from England. Until recently, they were > >> so isolated, the dialect never changed. > > > > > >It's almost certainly more accurate to say that the dialect changed > >very, very slowly. > > Not according to the National Geographic show on them. Time to run this by the American Dialect Society mailing list, and see what they say. -- Dan Goodman dsgood at visi.com ------- End of forwarded message ------- Dan Goodman dsgood at visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Sun Dec 2 15:26:37 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 15:26:37 -0000 Subject: Canadian, eh? In-Reply-To: <20011201220237.30268.qmail@web13007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: --On Saturday, December 1, 2001 2:02 pm -0800 "Angels Of Light Int'l Music \"?\"" wrote: > In summary, "eh" is still alive in Canadian English > and can be considered to be a true Canadianism in > terms of frequency and contextual distinctiveness. I've probably mentioned this before, but South African "hey" is pretty much the same as Canadian 'eh' in its use. Here are the definitions from the Oxford _Dictionary of South African English on Historical Principles". I'll give a couple of examples with each, but there are lots more in the book. 1. Added to a statement or a question: a request for an utterance to be repeated; a request for confirmation of what has been said; used to turn a statement into a question; inviting agreement. 1929 He's quite an intellectual, hey? 1961 Isn't it a small world, hey? 1971 But life's funny, hey? 1986 You're in standard nine, hey? 2. Added to an instruction or command to soften it, by implying that the assent of the one addressed is being sought. 1953 You must drive slowly, hey, so that they can keep up... 1975 Ag goodbye my boy ... come again hey! 3. Added to a question to insist on an answer, or to indicate that the question refers to something which the one addressed ought to take note of, or pay attention to . 1956 What do you think of that -- hey? 1966 Donder, now what's the matter with the thing, hey? 4. Added to a statement to give it emphasis or to retain the attention of the one addressed, through an implied request for a reply of some sort (when no reply is, in fact, required). 1985 He takes one look at ou Shirley -- you know Clint hey -- sommer in the bath, guns and all! 1987 'How many chaps do you want?' 'Five or six. Thanks hey.' --- Now the entry also says 'cf. hoor'. 'Hoor' is Afrikans 'hear' and is used in some of the same senses as 'hey' (short for 'hoor jy my?'--do you hear me?). So, that seems a likely etymology for 'hey'. What about 'eh'? And is this sort of discourse particle very common cross-linguistically? Are there similar things in other dialects of English? Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Sun Dec 2 18:28:45 2001 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:28:45 -0700 Subject: Tacos in Mexico In-Reply-To: <3C05298300064369@phobos.email.Arizona.EDU> Message-ID: The term "taco" identifies rather different things in various parts of Mexico, as does "enchilada". The familiar "norten~o" varieties spread from Texas, in which the taco is folded and fried crisp and enchilada is rolled and baked, can vary considerably, even in the US. In New Mexico and El Paso, enchiladas may be stacked pancake-style before baking, and in Sonora, southern Arizona, and southern California (at least near the border), they may be made as patties (looking like salmon croquettes). My first encounter with a radically different taco came in Mexico City in a small Veracruz restaurant, in which the tacos I ordered were, as in one of Barry's descriptions, made by simply rolling a tortilla around some shredded chicken. The enchiladas were, much to my surprise, fried (like what we have come to call flautas) after being rolled around some meat. This seemed almost a reversal of the Texas-Norten~o versions. I've never made an intentional study of regional variation in Mexican cuisine, but I am sure some anthropologist/folklorist has done so. The east coast is influenced by Caribbean features, including black beans instead of pinto beans, and lots of seafood not found elsewhere. Probably different regional sources of Spanish immigration, combined with original regional differences (prior to Spanish conquest, what is now Mexico was a complex set of different ethnic groups, with languages as different as English, Arabic, and Chinese), and of course subsequent postcolonial influences and movements. There is a Museo de las Culturas de Mexico just off the Zocalo at Moneda 13 which would be a good place to check into, and the Instituto Nacional de Antropologi'a e Historia has publications going back to the 1930s on all aspects of modern and prehispanic Mexican cultures (with precursors and researchers going back into the 1800s). Buen provecho! Rudy From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 2 06:08:59 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 14:08:59 +0800 Subject: Tacos in Mexico In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 11:28 AM -0700 12/2/01, Rudolph C Troike wrote: >The term "taco" identifies rather different things in various parts of >Mexico, as does "enchilada". The familiar "norten~o" varieties spread from >Texas, in which the taco is folded and fried crisp and enchilada is rolled >and baked, can vary considerably, even in the US. > In New Mexico and El Paso, enchiladas may be stacked pancake-style >before baking, and in Sonora, southern Arizona, and southern California >(at least near the border), they may be made as patties (looking like >salmon croquettes). > My first encounter with a radically different taco came in Mexico >City in a small Veracruz restaurant, in which the tacos I ordered were, as >in one of Barry's descriptions, made by simply rolling a tortilla around >some shredded chicken. this last kind is what I always thought of as an authentic taco, after I bought them on the street corners in Ensenada (Baja California). Two soft corn tortillas, in fact, rolled around meat (chicken, carnitas, tongue, whatever) with some spicy salsa and cilantro. Not JUST shredded chicken--that would be a bit bland for Mexico, at least for Baja. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 2 06:54:47 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 14:54:47 +0800 Subject: gap in the OED Message-ID: attention Jesse (et al.): As an Argentinian colleague, J. L. Speranza, just alerted me, the OED (on-line and printed) contains no entry for "implicature", the most important term in pragmatic theory and one that's been around since at least 1967 (when H. P. Grice's William James lectures were first delivered and circulated). I'm not sure when the first published cite would be; the term was already pretty old hat when I used it umpteen times in my 1972 dissertation, but Grice's lectures didn't appear in print until 1975. The AHD4 entry is pretty solid-- Linguistics [Why not "Philosophy" too?] 1. The aspect of meaning that a speaker conveys, implies, or suggests without directly expressing. Although the utterance "Can you pass the salt?" is literally a request for information about one's ability to pass salt, the understood implicature is a request for salt. 2. The process by which such a meaning is conveyed, implied, or suggested. In saying "Some dogs are mammals," the speaker conveys by implicature that not all dogs are mammals. --but curiously omits any attribution to Grice, the originator of the term. (As it happens, the example in #2 comes from my own work--I seem to recall that the AHD entry is due to our own Steve Kleinedler, and there was no such entry in AHD3--but I was just using it to illustrate Grice's concept.) The AHD4 entry for the verb "implicate" also contains a sense corresponding to the base of this noun--'To convey, imply, or suggest by implicature'--and this Gricean sense is also missing from the OED entry, although other, older senses of "implicate" are given. I know these items aren't as tasty as some of Barry's delectabilia, but they're pretty important in their own way. Jesse? larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 2 20:32:59 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 15:32:59 EST Subject: Tacos in Mexico Message-ID: "DEREK JETER'S TACO HOLE" ON SNL--A pretty bad (tasteless?) skit involving the current Yankee shortstop was on yesterday's Saturday Night Live. LIBRARY OF CONGRESS--The web site says that the Jefferson Library will be closed Monday (anthrax-related?), so I'll visit the LOC some other time. Tomorrow, I'll probably check out the menu collection at New York City Technical College, at Brooklyn's Metrotech Center. It has about 5,000 menus, most all from 1970 and from NYC. DAVID SHULMAN IN HOSPITAL WITH FLU--He called me to tell me he's in the Victory Memorial Hospital in Brooklyn (phone number misplaced, but they're in the book). He says it's the flu and he'll be out within three days. I'll check on him and the above in a Brooklyn visit tomorrow. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 2 21:42:57 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:42:57 EST Subject: "Taco" in DICCIONARIO DE MEJICANISMOS (1959) Message-ID: Maybe I'll re-think Rio Frio?...In any case, OED's first cite of "taco" from 1949's AMERICAN SPEECH is off a bit. DICCIONARIO DE MEJICANISMOS Razonado; comprobado con citas de autoridades; comparado con el de americanismos y con los vocabularios provinciales de los mas distinguidos diccionariestas hispanamericanos. por FRANCISCO J. SANTAMARIA PRIMERA EDICION EDITORIAL PORRUA, S. A. MEJICO 1959 Pg. 993: _Taco._ m. Por antonomasia, comida ligera e improvisada, alimento propio de la gente del pueblo; se prepara por lo comun con una tortilla enrollada. "Pero por hoy disimule que no este todavia lista la comida, si quiere mientras echar un _taco_ se lo hare al instante". (_Astacia_, t. II, 72)--"Los almorzadores, circulaban los tecomates viz (?--ed.) cesar, mordian los _tacos_ con aguacate y chilitos verdos con un verdadero placer". (PAYNO, _Los Bandidos de Rio Frio_, 156.)--"Cecilia, fina a su modo, como ella decia, ya le daba la mitad del taco de sua calientes tortillas". (Ip., _ib_., 376.)--"Estaba sentado en un puesto cercano al de Cecilia, comiendose un _taco_ de mesclapiques con aguacate". (Ip., _ib_., t. II, 587.)--"Yantaba en un rincon, una cazuela en la diestra y tres tortillas en _taco_ en la otra mano". (AZUELA, _Los de abajo_, 5.)--"A la salida, se metieron en un saloncito servido por muchachas a tomar unas copas y comer unos _taquitos_ de cabeza de res". (HENRIQUEZ, _Manuelita_, 76.)--"Desayunaron. Maria Nieves le hizo probar un _taco_ caliente con queso fresco y piloncillo raspado". (GARCIA IGLESIAS, _El Jaguey de las ruinas_, 184.)--"Y las ladiadas sufrian, en el agobio de las apuraciones, aguantandose con dos _tacos_ de chile y un trago de atole". (MAGDALENO, _El Resplandor_, 142.)--"La China me acompano hasta el embarcadero, llevandome un _taco_ para el camino, dos panuelos y mi pistola". (ROMEO FLORES, _Leyendas y cuentos michoacanos_, 71.)--"Los puestos de fritangas: chicarrones con chile verde, barbacoa, carnitas en tortillas calientes, enchiladas y sus primos hermanos los guajolotes, pambacitos compuestos, garnachas, _tacos_..." (GONZALEZ PENA, _El nicho iluminado_, 105.)--"Y no vaya a alebrestarsele el apetito al amable lector: los chilaquiles, los pencques, los sopes, los contamales, los _tacos_, las quesadillas y diversidad de sopas". (Ip., _ib_., 130.)--"Una batalla grandisima para poder, conseguir o ganar un _taco_ de frijoles". (URQUIZO, _Tropa Vieja_, 17.) RAMOS, 469. _Cuba_. Se usa como adjetive por peripuesto. PICHARDO, 484.--ORTIZ, 54.--MARTINEZ MOLES, 290. 2. Bocado que se toma fuera de comida, hecho por lo comun en rollo de tortilla. (Vino de Espana su nombre. Todo proviene de que ataca.) PATRON PENICHE, 163. "Como gorrona (epiteto de Tafolla) aprovechaba bien cuanta oportunidad se le presentaba para echar un _taco_ de algun antojito". (MAQUEO CASTELLANOS, _La Casona_, 40.) 3. Polaina de cuero. 4. (_Latania borbonica_, WATS.) Nombre mayo de una palmera, vulgarmente usado en Sinaloa. 5. Retaco, persona chaparrita y gorda. Lo mismo en Chile. 6. Buen jugador de billar. _Arg._ SEGOVIA, 143; _Tacon_, y 288.--GARZON, 462, tacon y trago de vino. _Col._ SUNDHEIM, 608: "En Rio Hacha hacen esta palabra sinonima de personaje, y sin embargo no valer un _taco_ significa alla lo propio que no valer un pito". _Chile._ ROMAN, V, 376: "m. Es corriente en CHile por _tacon_ (pieza semicircular, mas o menos alta, que va exteriormente unida a la suela del zapato o bota, en aquella parte que corresponde al calcanar.)--Por semojanza, parte inferior a base de la pilastra de madera para puertas y ventanas. Vease Pilastra, la. aacep. Fig y fam., individuo de pequena catatura. No es exclusivo de Chiloe, como lo da Cavada, sion general de CHile. El Diccionario gallego de Cueiro Pinol tambien lo trae con el significado de "Persona pequena". _Taco de goma:_ pieza de caucho con que se cubre la extremidad del _tacon_ para spagar el ruido al andar y para no resbalar".--RODRIGUEZ, 447. --DARSE UNO TACO. fr. fig. fam. Darse pisto, darse importancia. "Y por aqui conocera usted cuan poco tendria que aprender de aquel garbo, o lo que llaman _aire de taco_ las cortesanas". (PENSADOR, _El Periquillo_, t. I-B, 132.) RUBIO, _Anarquia_, 260. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Dec 2 22:41:13 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:41:13 -0500 Subject: gap in the OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Do you mean to say 'implicature' is not in the dictionary? dInIs (implicaturing all over the place) >attention Jesse (et al.): > >As an Argentinian colleague, J. L. Speranza, just alerted me, the OED >(on-line and printed) contains no entry for "implicature", the most >important term in pragmatic theory and one that's been around since >at least 1967 (when H. P. Grice's William James lectures were first >delivered and circulated). I'm not sure when the first published >cite would be; the term was already pretty old hat when I used it >umpteen times in my 1972 dissertation, but Grice's lectures didn't >appear in print until 1975. The AHD4 entry is pretty solid-- > >Linguistics [Why not "Philosophy" too?] >1. The aspect of meaning that a speaker conveys, implies, or suggests >without directly >expressing. Although the utterance "Can you pass the salt?" is >literally a request for >information about one's ability to pass salt, the understood >implicature is a request for >salt. >2. The process by which such a meaning is conveyed, implied, or suggested. In >saying "Some dogs are mammals," the speaker conveys by implicature >that not all >dogs are mammals. > >--but curiously omits any attribution to Grice, the originator of the >term. (As it happens, the example in #2 comes from my own work--I >seem to recall that the AHD entry is due to our own Steve Kleinedler, >and there was no such entry in AHD3--but I was just using it to >illustrate Grice's concept.) > >The AHD4 entry for the verb "implicate" also contains a sense >corresponding to the base of this noun--'To convey, imply, or suggest >by implicature'--and this Gricean sense is also missing from the OED >entry, although other, older senses of "implicate" are given. > >I know these items aren't as tasty as some of Barry's delectabilia, >but they're pretty important in their own way. Jesse? > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Mon Dec 3 00:17:47 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:17:47 -0500 Subject: gap in the OED Message-ID: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU,Net writes: >Do you mean to say 'implicature' is not in the dictionary? >dInIs (implicaturing all over the place) implicature is AHD 4th edition + Regards, David barnhart at highlands.com From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Dec 3 05:01:30 2001 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 22:01:30 -0700 Subject: Sky-west & crooked Message-ID: I queried my mother (98 in October) about this expression, and surfaced a recollection of its use when she lived in Palestine, in East Texas, before her family moved when she was in high school. Her firm impression was that she had only heard of its being used to refer to handwriting that was very messy, sort of all over the place. So this gives a pre-1918 datum for it in East Texas. She said she had not heard it used in Shawnee, OK, where her family moved, or OK City, where she lived for awhile in the late 1930s. Rudy From lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG Mon Dec 3 06:09:32 2001 From: lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG (Linda Sparlin) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 00:09:32 -0600 Subject: Sky-west & crooked In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Thank you, Rudy. Interesting that your mother and my grandmother were both for a time in Shawnee, OK. My grandfather and uncle went to Texas to work the oil rigs several times, but I think that grandmother (b. 1877 KY, then AR and OK) and girls stayed in Tulsa on those occasions. Linda -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Rudolph C Troike Sent: 02 December, 2001 11:02 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Sky-west & crooked I queried my mother (98 in October) about this expression, and surfaced a recollection of its use when she lived in Palestine, in East Texas, before her family moved when she was in high school. Her firm impression was that she had only heard of its being used to refer to handwriting that was very messy, sort of all over the place. So this gives a pre-1918 datum for it in East Texas. She said she had not heard it used in Shawnee, OK, where her family moved, or OK City, where she lived for awhile in the late 1930s. Rudy From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 3 06:12:38 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 01:12:38 EST Subject: Laddering (of stock) Message-ID: "Laddering" is explained in "Flood of Lawsuits Puts Underwriters in Cross Hairs," by Jonathan D. Glater, SUNDAY NEW YORK TIMES, business section, 2 December 2001, on www.nytimes.com. Supposedly, during the 1990s, internet and other stocks were "laddered" to go higher, creating a stock bubble. From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 3 07:52:12 2001 From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:52:12 +0100 Subject: Scottish accents Message-ID: I lost the URL that goes with this article, so here it is in its entirety. Fair use in my opinion, but feel free to sue me. The Scotsman, 3 December 2001 Have kilt, will lilt Wha's like us? Damn few, and they're a' deid etc. Ok, so wha soonds like us? Well, damn few again, but they a' want tae, it seems. Which is why a couple of language experts have come up with the idea of a CD to help people the world over learn to speak with an accurate and realistic Scottish accent. The trouble is, boffins from Edinburgh University have reasoned, is that when people think of Scottish accents, they think Rab C, or Billy Connolly, or Scotty from Star Trek. You could add to that Sean Connery, or Mel Gibson in Braveheart, or for the very elderly, Harry Lauder. Or for the very lacking in taste and musical appreciation, the legendary Andy Stewart. The result of the attempt to fix this terrible injustice is Scotspeak, a CD which shows how to mimic four genuine, non-hammed-up regional accents. The boffins were approached by the Scots Language Resource Centre in Perth after approaches "by actors from home and abroad who wanted to know more about Scots accents". It is expected that thousands of CDs will be winging their way to wannabe actors and actresses the world over. Glassfronted beach- houses in California will echo to impassioned cries of: "Ah sed, gies the boatle or ah 'll murdur ye". (Readers - especially linguistically qualified ones - should take my attempts at transcribing my own accent phonetically as those of a mere punter. However, should anyone be able to guess my exact birthplace, a Rabbie Burns tea towel will be your reward). Meanwhile, Manhattan penthouses will be the backdrop to whispered: "Ah only ivvur luv'd yoo, ye ken that, hen!" And sweat-soaked classes at RADA will see scores of beautiful people chanting: "It wiz yoo! Ah ken it wiz yoo that stole ma jam piece!" Which is all very nice (ye ken) but it will be our undoing. Because why fix something that isn't broken? Or more accurately, something that is clearly broken but which everybody likes? People the world over love Scots accents the way they hear them most often which is from the mouth of Scotty in Star Trek re-runs, wailing: "Ah cannae wurk mirrakuls, captain!" while Kirk pretends he (a) understands and (b) cares. They adore Sean Connery as he slurs his way through an accent that while truly charming, is plainly a work of fiction and a surplus of "sh" sounds. And they think Mel Gibson is just the very dab as Braveheart. So much so that they all think they can do a Scottish accent. It must be the most imitated in the world: seldom have I met anyone who didn 't think they could manage it, from a fat sweaty Turkish lad who was trying to drown me by renting out faulty dive equipment to me on holiday some years ago ("You Scotteesh? Ha! Feerst I teech you thees then I teech you thee sword! Ahahahah!") to every single American I ever met. In the past they would cry "Ah Mishter Blofeld! We meet again" in accents that sound rather as if they're shouting through a mouth of toffees coated in broken glass, and in more recent days they shout "An unyin huz layurz! Shrek huz layurz!" None of these are realistic, but why stop them? Why tell them the right way to do it? What if they then don't actually like us as much and stop giving us a far bigger share of movie space and affection than our nation's size might otherwise merit? Foreigners' perceptions of the way we sound, for some inexplicable reason, make them happy. And trying to sound like us makes them even happier. Why? Maybe the language experts can give us a clue: it is odd - other than for occasional racist comic value. You do not, for example, see Germans enter an office and have people loudly do impressions of them speaking English in an Allo Allo accent. And French people likewise speaking English don't find themselves parodied. But we do, for some reason, and don't take offence (though after the first few dozen American colleagues' cheery attempts at Scotty accents or "There's a moose loose aboot the hoose" sort of thing, patience can wear thin). But a real Scottish accent, well, that's a different matter. Some years ago, in Hong Kong, I worked beside a Chinese woman who spoke flawless Cantonese, Mandarin, English and French. After six months of working together, one day she said pleasantly: "You speak English quite well: what is your first language?" I'm sure my reply was suitably suave and witty, but it wouldn't have mattered anyway, as she admitted that she understood somewhere around half of what I ever said anyway, and usually laughed to humour me. Likewise, on a recent work visit to New York, it was with a heavy heart I learned my hotel was to be on 36th Street. Not that I have anything against 36th Street, I don't, it's perfectly functional. As is 37th which I hate. And 38th and all the other 30s because, rendered through a Scottish accent such as mine, cab drivers who seldom have English as their first language (either), assume it's 50-something. Every time. Having got in late at night and said Fifth Avenue and 36th Street, we set off. I see 30th pass, then 31st, and happily think "home, and sleep". At 32nd I search for cash to pay. At 35th I undo my seatbelt and get ready to get out. We cross 36th at high speed, and I see my hotel blur past. By 37th I'm querying: "Um: 36th?" The cabbie says "Yas! Fifty seven!" By 39th I'm shouting "Thirty six, three, six," and he's yelling "You say fifty seven! You say fifty seven!" By 45th I'm walking homeward, shaken, in an incoherent sort of way. Every time. I feel sure if I attempted it in a Sean Connery accent I might have more luck. "Yesh, I wishhhh to go towardsh sherty-shixth shtreet, and fasht!" would surely get me there, as might a Braveheartish "Parrrrrrk Avenue and Thirrrrrrrty Sixth: ye can take our countrrry, ye can take our taxi farrres ..." Don't get me wrong, I love being Scottish. As hobbies go, it's a winner. And people love it. They just don't understand what I say much of the time. Which is probably no bad thing either. Paul _________________________________ Paul Frank English translation from Chinese, German, French, Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese Tel. +33 450 709 990 - Thollon, France E-mail: paulfrank at post.harvard.edu From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Mon Dec 3 14:40:52 2001 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 09:40:52 -0500 Subject: amber/yellow lights Message-ID: 74,948,050 Paul Ivsin wrote: [...] > ticket. Then, seeing as the physicist would have to be driving about a > quarter of the speed of light to see a red signal as green, the judge fined > him 269 million dollars for speeding, one dollar for each kilometer per hour > over the limit." Errata?: If the necessary speed for a perceptual shift of red to green is indeed 0.25 c, the fine (assuming a 65 km/h limit) would likely have been closer to $74,948,050. If the fine was levied in dollars while the infraction was measured in km/h, are we to assume that the person was driving in Canada, or in Australia? I suppose that can only be determined if the direction of the Coriolis deflection is known.... From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Dec 3 15:38:36 2001 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:38:36 -0700 Subject: for to Message-ID: From: Beverly Flanigan : >From: Beverly Flanigan : >: Offer this use of the infinitive marker "for to," heard from : >: George W. last August and gleefully written down (because I : >: like it): "[the government] trusts citizens ... for to meet : >: their health care needs." Good South Midland usage, if a bit : >: archaic. : >Archaic?!? Me?! But...but... :-) : Good! Where are you from?... Grew up in Waldorf, Maryland (23 miles SSE of Washington DC, northern edge of Charles County), born 1970. My wife, born 1971, grew up in Aberdeen, Maryland (about a half hour north of Baltimore, Maryland, in Harford County), most definitely does *not* have it. David Bowie Department of Linguistics Assistant Professor Brigham Young University db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Dec 3 15:57:48 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:57:48 -0500 Subject: gap in the OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I know these items aren't as tasty as some of Barry's delectabilia, > but they're pretty important in their own way. Jesse? The OED has drafted an entry for _implicature_ and cites Grice as the originator; it has an extensive definition that I'm sure would satisfy most people here. I don't know when the entry will be published. If it waits until the "I" range comes around, it could be a good long time; if we decide to call it "high-profile" it could get online sooner. Best, Jesse Sheidlower OED From maynor at RA.MSSTATE.EDU Mon Dec 3 16:50:53 2001 From: maynor at RA.MSSTATE.EDU (Natalie Maynor) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:50:53 -0600 Subject: Job Ad Message-ID: I just received this ad for forwarding to ADS-L: > From: Saira_Fitzgerald > To: "'maynor at ra.msstate.edu'" > Subject: Posting of position > Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:58:00 -0500 > > Dear Natalie, > > We attempted to post the following ad for the Director's position at the > School of Linguistics and Applied Language Studies at Carleton University on > ADS-L. > > The posting was returned. Can you help us? > > Best > > Janna > jfox at cyberus.ca > > > CARLETON UNIVERSITY > > SCHOOL OF LINGUISTICS AND APPLIED LANGUAGE STUDIES: DIRECTOR > > Carleton University invites applications for the position of Director, > School of Linguistics and Applied Language Studies, effective July 1, > 2002, or earlier. Applicants must have a Ph.D., an excellent academic > record in Applied Linguistics or Applied Language Studies, both in > teaching and research (preferably with a specialisation in second > language teaching, second language acquisition or language testing) and > demonstrated administrative abilities. The appointment will be made at > the rank of Associate Professor or Professor for an initial five-year > term. > > The School of Linguistics and Applied language Studies is responsible > for the University's graduate programs in Applied Language Studies and > undergraduate programs in linguistics and applied language studies, > credit courses in all languages offered by the University other than > French, credit and intensive programs in English as a second language, > the Canadian Academic English Language Assessment and other language > testing programs, the Writing Tutorial Service and several other > operations. The School has active linkages with a number of institutions > abroad, and is currently involved in TEFL teacher training programs and > materials development programs with institutions in Cuba, Greenland, > Indonesia and Iran. In addition, the School welcomes a number of > visiting scholars every year who come to take advantage of the research > opportunities available in the School. For more information on the > School, visit: www.carleton.ca/slals. > > All qualified candidates are encouraged to apply. The applications of > Canadian and permanent residents will be given priority. Carleton > University is committed to equality of employment for women, aboriginal > peoples, visible minorities and persons with disabilities. Persons from > these groups are encouraged to apply. > > The position is subject to budgetary approval. Letters of application > or nomination, including the names of three referees and a current > curriculum vitae, should be addressed to: > > Dr. Aviva Freedman, Dean > Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences > Carleton University > Ottawa, Ontario > Canada K1S 5B6 > > Applications will be reviewed as received, but not after March 1, 2002. > From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Mon Dec 3 17:47:23 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:47:23 EST Subject: dork Message-ID: I hope I'm not too late on this... "Dork" as "dick" is not dead. "Monster Squad" (a movie from 1987) used it. "The Wolf-Man wears pants to cover-up his wolf-dork." I still hear it for "penis" occasionally, not often, but definately it's still around. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From pcleary at WANS.NET Mon Dec 3 18:13:51 2001 From: pcleary at WANS.NET (Philip E. Cleary) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:13:51 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: Last night, I watched the WWI movie, "The Last (or Lost) Battalion," on A&E. One of the American soldiers pronounced "defense" as "DEE-fense." Is this pronunciation anachronistic? I was under the impression that "DEE-fense" dates back only a few decades and arose from the spondaic chanting of NY Giants fans. Phil Cleary From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 3 18:38:05 2001 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:38:05 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense In-Reply-To: <002101c17c26$62964020$02a9c540@31j9t01> Message-ID: A semi-related question: does anybody know anything about the pronunciation of "defendant" with fully-realized ash (rather than schwa) in the last syllable? I get the impression it's a Northeast (NYC?) lawyer/police-speak feature, presumably a spelling-pronunciation in origin. I only heard it for the first time a couple of years ago in "Night Falls on Manhattan" (1997), but I'm guessing it's probably been around a while. Is it limited to law-enforcement authorities and legal professionals in certain regions, or...? Ben Fortson On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Philip E. Cleary wrote: > Last night, I watched the WWI movie, "The Last (or Lost) Battalion," on A&E. > One of the American soldiers pronounced "defense" as "DEE-fense." > > Is this pronunciation anachronistic? I was under the impression that > "DEE-fense" dates back only a few decades and arose from the spondaic > chanting of NY Giants fans. > > Phil Cleary > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 3 05:53:33 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:53:33 +0800 Subject: DEE-fense In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 1:38 PM -0500 12/3/01, Benjamin Fortson wrote: >A semi-related question: does anybody know anything about the >pronunciation of "defendant" with fully-realized ash (rather than schwa) >in the last syllable? I get the impression it's a Northeast (NYC?) >lawyer/police-speak feature, presumably a spelling-pronunciation in >origin. I only heard it for the first time a couple of years ago in "Night >Falls on Manhattan" (1997), but I'm guessing it's probably been around a >while. Is it limited to law-enforcement authorities and legal >professionals in certain regions, or...? > >Ben Fortson > I've noticed that unreduced vowel on TV court shows too, e.g. A&E's 100 Centre Street. It's as if the attorneys and judges want to make sure the court reporter gets the spelling right. larry From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Mon Dec 3 19:03:54 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:03:54 -0800 Subject: DEE-fense In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I first encountered this as a juror at the Essex County Court in Newark, New Jersey. The judge not only pronounced the final syllable with an unreduced [ae], he gave it strong primary stress: "the dee-fen-DANT." I'm sure not only the judge used this pronunciation, but I can't say for sure that EVERYBODY connected with the court used it. This was certainly not the everyday local pronunciation outside of court, and I strongly suspect that even the judge would have slipped into the "normal" [di'fend at nt] pronunciation outside of working hours. Peter --On Monday, December 3, 2001 1:53 PM +0800 Laurence Horn wrote: > At 1:38 PM -0500 12/3/01, Benjamin Fortson wrote: >> A semi-related question: does anybody know anything about the >> pronunciation of "defendant" with fully-realized ash (rather than schwa) >> in the last syllable? I get the impression it's a Northeast (NYC?) >> lawyer/police-speak feature, presumably a spelling-pronunciation in >> origin. I only heard it for the first time a couple of years ago in >> "Night Falls on Manhattan" (1997), but I'm guessing it's probably been >> around a while. Is it limited to law-enforcement authorities and legal >> professionals in certain regions, or...? >> >> Ben Fortson >> > I've noticed that unreduced vowel on TV court shows too, e.g. A&E's > 100 Centre Street. It's as if the attorneys and judges want to make > sure the court reporter gets the spelling right. > > larry **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 3 19:05:41 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:05:41 -0800 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: phil cleary: >Last night, I watched the WWI movie, "The Last (or Lost) Battalion," >on A&E. One of the American soldiers pronounced "defense" as >"DEE-fense." >Is this pronunciation anachronistic? I was under the impression that >"DEE-fense" dates back only a few decades and arose from the >spondaic chanting of NY Giants fans. in addition to the sports chants (do we really know that giants fans were the source of DEfense in this context?), the forestressed pronunciation has a long history as a variant in parts of the south and south midlands, along with POlice, TENnessee, INsurance, and a bunch of others. is there a good survey of the words subject to this front-shifting, with some indication of their geographical and social distribution? (i suppose some account of the history would be too much to ask for.) arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Mon Dec 3 19:28:06 2001 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:28:06 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: Where would the stress fall in "police car"? Would it be "POlice car"? And another one, come to think of it. How would people in these areas say, say, "southern Tennessee"? "SOUthern TENnessee"? >...the forestressed pronunciation has a long history as a variant > in parts of the south and south midlands, along with POlice, > TENnessee, INsurance, and a bunch of others. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Dec 3 19:28:31 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:28:31 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense In-Reply-To: <000801c17c30$a28cdea0$5feefea9@billiondesktop> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Dec 2001, Billionbridges.com wrote: >And another one, come to think of it. How would people >in these areas say, say, "southern Tennessee"? >"SOUthern TENnessee"? There is no "southern TENNessee" _ only East, Middle, and West. Bethany From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Mon Dec 3 19:41:45 2001 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:41:45 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: "Philip E. Cleary" wrote: > > "DEE-fense" dates back only a few decades and arose from the spondaic > chanting of NY Giants fans. In this case, the word is spelled. "D-??????" (for those of you who can't view MIME-encoded messages, a string of double-cross characters, Alt+0135, to simulate the simulated fence often held up by the stadium DEE-fense chanters, of which we have our share here in Pittsburgh, too, thank you very much). From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Mon Dec 3 19:53:14 2001 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:53:14 -0500 Subject: "It's my cut" Message-ID: Had drinks in a pub on Yonge Street in Toronto the other day (that would be a "pub" as in an establishment serving alcohol that intentionally attempts to mimic the atmosphere and decor associated with pubs in England - whether they do it authentically or not over here I can't say - our Canadian use of the word "pub" is the same as yours Stateside in this regard) and was asked by our server if we wouldn't mind paying the bill up to that point, as it was her "cut". Her "cut", we inquired further? Did that mean she was finished her shift? Yes, she replied. In the restaurant and bar industry, according to this server, at least in Toronto, when one finishes work one says "it's my cut", or, "I'm getting cut at 11:00." I live 50 kilometres south of Toronto, and have never heard this usage before. Granted, I don't have much experience in the food serving industry, but I wonder if other ADS-L members have ever heard this expression before? _______________________ Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo "A Billion Bridges" Chinese<>English Translation Services Tel: 905-308-9389 Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs) Web: www.billionbridges.com Email: translation at billionbridges.com From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Mon Dec 3 19:45:41 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 14:45:41 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: I have to admit that when I first saw this email, I was completely flummoxed by it, to the point of wondering if it were a joke. I say poLICE and inSURance, but it was inconceivable to me that Tennessee could be pronounced any way other than TENnessee, whether or not preceded by SOUthern. SouTHERN TenNESsee just didn't sound plausible. I had to consult the online American Heritage to realize that some people actually say TennesSEE. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: Billionbridges.com [SMTP:translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM] > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 2:28 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: DEE-fense > > Where would the stress fall in "police car"? Would > it be "POlice car"? > > And another one, come to think of it. How would people > in these areas say, say, "southern Tennessee"? > "SOUthern TENnessee"? > > >...the forestressed pronunciation has a long history as a variant > > in parts of the south and south midlands, along with POlice, > > TENnessee, INsurance, and a bunch of others. > > > ******************************************* > * This email has been scanned for viruses * > * Stradley Ronon Stevens & Young, LLP * > ******************************************* > From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Dec 3 20:22:39 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:22:39 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >A semi-related question: does anybody know anything about the >pronunciation of "defendant" with fully-realized ash (rather than schwa) >in the last syllable? I get the impression it's a Northeast (NYC?) >lawyer/police-speak feature, presumably a spelling-pronunciation in >origin. I only heard it for the first time a couple of years ago in "Night >Falls on Manhattan" (1997), but I'm guessing it's probably been around a >while. Is it limited to law-enforcement authorities and legal >professionals in certain regions, or...? > >Ben Fortson ~~~~~~ This reminds me of a somewhat similar instance of spelling-pronunciation: a bit of radio spam that refers to the National Association of RealtORs. I assume most people give the last syllable a schwa.....? A.Murie billionbridges says: "I live 50 kilometres south of Toronto".........on a houseboat? From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 3 08:06:31 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:06:31 +0800 Subject: DEE-fense In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:22 PM -0500 12/3/01, sagehen wrote: >... >billionbridges says: "I live 50 kilometres south of Toronto".........on a >houseboat? Well, if you can drive south from L.A. and end up in San Diego (or Mexico) and not wet, you can do the same in Toronto, only there "south" probably means WSW instead of ESE. larry From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Dec 3 21:14:41 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:14:41 -0500 Subject: "Little Italy" Message-ID: A few months ago, I think, we were discussing "Little Italy" and whether it referred to more than the one centered around New York's Mulberry Street. Soon afterwards I read some interesting examples which I never got around to posting, so I do so now. These are from the new publication of Joseph "McSorley's Wonderful Saloon" Mitchell's _My Ears are Bent,_ a collection of his newspaper writing first published in 1938. The pieces are undated but "a1938" should be accurate. a1938 J. Mitchell in _My Ears are Bent_ II. ii. 38 If the war is between Italy and Ethiopia, for instance, the idea is "How do the Italians in New York City feel about the war?" When a reporter is assigned to such a story he goes on a hurried tour of the ginmills in the nearest Italian neighborhood (Mulberry Street if he works for The World-Telegram and Harlem's Little Italy if he works for The Herald Tribune). and, even better, a1938 J. Mitchell in _My Ears are Bent_ VII. iii. 225 Strife over the Mussolini program split the Italians in the country into factions and precipitated murders and bombings and civil wars in a hundred Little Italys. Jesse Sheidlower OED From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Dec 3 21:34:15 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:34:15 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense In-Reply-To: <587086.3216366234@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: What's normal about an [e] (lax midfront) before a nasal? Surely the normal pronunciation is [d at fInd@nt]. Just because there are more abnormal than normal people in the world shouldn't deter those of us who know we are normal. dInIs >I first encountered this as a juror at the Essex County Court in Newark, >New Jersey. The judge not only pronounced the final syllable with an >unreduced [ae], he gave it strong primary stress: "the dee-fen-DANT." I'm >sure not only the judge used this pronunciation, but I can't say for sure >that EVERYBODY connected with the court used it. This was certainly not >the everyday local pronunciation outside of court, and I strongly suspect >that even the judge would have slipped into the "normal" [di'fend at nt] >pronunciation outside of working hours. > >Peter > >--On Monday, December 3, 2001 1:53 PM +0800 Laurence Horn > wrote: > >>At 1:38 PM -0500 12/3/01, Benjamin Fortson wrote: >>>A semi-related question: does anybody know anything about the >>>pronunciation of "defendant" with fully-realized ash (rather than schwa) >>>in the last syllable? I get the impression it's a Northeast (NYC?) >>>lawyer/police-speak feature, presumably a spelling-pronunciation in >>>origin. I only heard it for the first time a couple of years ago in >>>"Night Falls on Manhattan" (1997), but I'm guessing it's probably been >>>around a while. Is it limited to law-enforcement authorities and legal >>>professionals in certain regions, or...? >>> >>>Ben Fortson >>> >>I've noticed that unreduced vowel on TV court shows too, e.g. A&E's >>100 Centre Street. It's as if the attorneys and judges want to make >>sure the court reporter gets the spelling right. >> >>larry > > > >**************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Mon Dec 3 21:35:40 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:35:40 -0800 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: john baker: >I have to admit that when I first saw this email, I was completely >flummoxed by it, to the point of wondering if it were a joke. I say >poLICE and inSURance, but it was inconceivable to me that Tennessee >could be pronounced any way other than TENnessee... well, it's known that the geographical and social distribution of the forestressed variants is different for different words. TENnessee seems to be widespread enough to have made it into u.s. dictionaries, while many others haven't. arnold From funex79 at SLONET.ORG Mon Dec 3 21:43:36 2001 From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 13:43:36 -0800 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: I more often hear realtors pronounced REEL a tors. ----- Original Message ----- From: "sagehen" To: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:22 PM Subject: Re: DEE-fense > >A semi-related question: does anybody know anything about the > >pronunciation of "defendant" with fully-realized ash (rather than schwa) > >in the last syllable? I get the impression it's a Northeast (NYC?) > >lawyer/police-speak feature, presumably a spelling-pronunciation in > >origin. I only heard it for the first time a couple of years ago in "Night > >Falls on Manhattan" (1997), but I'm guessing it's probably been around a > >while. Is it limited to law-enforcement authorities and legal > >professionals in certain regions, or...? > > > >Ben Fortson > ~~~~~~ > This reminds me of a somewhat similar instance of spelling-pronunciation: > a bit of radio spam that refers to the National Association of RealtORs. I > assume most people give the last syllable a schwa.....? > A.Murie > billionbridges says: "I live 50 kilometres south of Toronto".........on a > houseboat? > From Ittaob at AOL.COM Mon Dec 3 22:59:26 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:59:26 EST Subject: "Little Italy" Message-ID: The book accompanying an exhibit on Italian-Americans in New York at the NY Historical Society in 1999, "The Italians of New York," has a chapter entitled "Peopling 'Little Italy'" that has the following remarks: "By World War I, observers counted over 70 centers of concentrated Italian settlement -- called "Little Italies" -- in all the boroughs of the consolidating city. . .The earliest Little Italy remarked upon by commentators like Jacob Riis in the 1880s and 18909s -- the Mulberry Street district that extended north from the Five Points -- stood out in part because it jostled up against neighborhoods where other immigrants marked as "different" already clustered." Steve Boatti From pcleary at WANS.NET Mon Dec 3 23:10:43 2001 From: pcleary at WANS.NET (Philip E. Cleary) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 18:10:43 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: You will hear some Massachusetts lawyers saying it that way. From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM Mon Dec 3 23:50:07 2001 From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 18:50:07 -0500 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: A Torontonian would say that Hamilton is west of Toronto because of the layout of the streets there, but a Hamiltonian would say that Toronto is north of Hamilton because the of the layout of the streets in Hamilton. For us here, east means Niagara Falls and Buffalo. To be more accurate I suppose I should say "southwest of Toronto", though it really is more south than west. > >billionbridges says: "I live 50 kilometres south of Toronto".........on a > >houseboat? > > Well, if you can drive south from L.A. and end up in San Diego (or > Mexico) and not wet, you can do the same in Toronto, only there > "south" probably means WSW instead of ESE. > > larry From hstahlke at ATT.NET Mon Dec 3 23:56:44 2001 From: hstahlke at ATT.NET (hstahlke at ATT.NET) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 23:56:44 +0000 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: Related to this is the question of whether the /t/ gets laxed to [D]. I've heard College of Education types say [EdjukejtOr] with secondary stresses on both of the last two syllables and tertiary on the antepenult. I've heard that from local TV news readers. Same with "administrator" and "executor". They all occur also with primary-weak-secondary-weak pattern with a laxed dental. Is this anything more than a hyper- correct spelling pronunciation? I've also heard "informant" with an ash. It seems to me that "informant", as a pejorative term for informer/rat/stoolie/squealer/etc. goes back to Watergate. At least I remember that up till 1973 we, in African linguistics, routinely used the term informant for our language consultants. At the Annual Conference on African Linguistics at UFlorida in '73, the conference carried on an hour-long discussion on what to call our language consultants. "Informant" had just recently become pejorative so that many of us didn't want to use the term. One unfortunate non-Francophone participant suggested "collaborator". A former dean raised budgetary reservations about "consultant", but I think that's the one we ended up with. Herb Stahlke Ball State University > I more often hear realtors pronounced REEL a tors. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sagehen" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 12:22 PM > Subject: Re: DEE-fense > > > > >A semi-related question: does anybody know anything about the > > >pronunciation of "defendant" with fully-realized ash (rather than schwa) > > >in the last syllable? I get the impression it's a Northeast (NYC?) > > >lawyer/police-speak feature, presumably a spelling-pronunciation in > > >origin. I only heard it for the first time a couple of years ago in > "Night > > >Falls on Manhattan" (1997), but I'm guessing it's probably been around a > > >while. Is it limited to law-enforcement authorities and legal > > >professionals in certain regions, or...? > > > > > >Ben Fortson > > ~~~~~~ > > This reminds me of a somewhat similar instance of spelling-pronunciation: > > a bit of radio spam that refers to the National Association of RealtORs. > I > > assume most people give the last syllable a schwa.....? > > A.Murie > > billionbridges says: "I live 50 kilometres south of Toronto".........on a > > houseboat? > > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 4 03:37:35 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:37:35 EST Subject: Hackademy; Build-your-own theater quote Message-ID: HACKADEMY Today's NEW YORK POST, 3 December 2001, pg. 25, col. 1 (www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/35660.htm), describes a school for would-be hackers and cyber-pirates called "The Hackademy." It's in France, where I didn't think American slang was allowed in school. -------------------------------------------------------- BUILD-YOUR-OWN THEATER QUOTE New York City is on high alert. I just passed several policemen by Bloomingdale's. David Shulman is OK; he shakes a little. I saw this ad on the subway from Brooklyn. To advertise a play, you used to need good reviews. Now, all you need are a bunch of words, which you can cut and paste as you wish: HIP YOUNG UNFLINCHING SEXY WICKED DARING & COMPULSIVELY WATCHABLE (In smaller print, five sources are given for the above seven terms--ed.) THE JOURNAL NEWS THE NEW YORK TIMES ASSOCIATED PRESS THE STAR LEDGER NEWSDAY _THE SHAPE OF THINGS_ by Neil LaBute Promenade Theatre Broadway at 76 Street TheShapeofThingsoff-Broadway.com From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Tue Dec 4 03:58:53 2001 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:58:53 EST Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: I wrote about this -or-ending business in an AS article a while back; they are spelling pronunciations, and my theory was that the more unfamiliar the word, the greater the likelihood that the spelling pronunciation would kick in and stick. For example I don't think anyone would use the /-or/ pronunciation for 'doctor, actor, tutor' but I hear it all the time for 'mentor' which is somewhat erudite compared to those everyday words. Then take a really unusual word like 'servitor' and nearly everyone, even a college professor, will use /-or/. Dale Coye The College of NJ From paul at IMPLICATURE.COM Tue Dec 4 04:08:37 2001 From: paul at IMPLICATURE.COM (Paul Ivsin) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:08:37 -0600 Subject: "It's my cut" Message-ID: I passed this one along to my wife, who worked at various restaurants and owned a bar (not a "pub" in the sense given, though) here in Chicago until recently. Her reply, in pertinent part: > Most places I've worked at do use cut: I've just been cut, > tell Bridget she's about to get cut (like one more table & > then that's the last one I get). Occassionally I've heard > people use it in the present progressive: "I'm cutting now." > (I'm stopping now) which I always thought sounded funny > & never used it myself as either you're cut or you're still > taking tables... I've never heard it as described below though. Hope this helps. Paul (800someodd kilometers WSW of Toronto) ... ... ... Paul Ivsin paul at ivsin.com ... ... ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Billionbridges.com" To: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 1:53 PM Subject: "It's my cut" Had drinks in a pub on Yonge Street in Toronto the other day (that would be a "pub" as in an establishment serving alcohol that intentionally attempts to mimic the atmosphere and decor associated with pubs in England - whether they do it authentically or not over here I can't say - our Canadian use of the word "pub" is the same as yours Stateside in this regard) and was asked by our server if we wouldn't mind paying the bill up to that point, as it was her "cut". Her "cut", we inquired further? Did that mean she was finished her shift? Yes, she replied. In the restaurant and bar industry, according to this server, at least in Toronto, when one finishes work one says "it's my cut", or, "I'm getting cut at 11:00." I live 50 kilometres south of Toronto, and have never heard this usage before. Granted, I don't have much experience in the food serving industry, but I wonder if other ADS-L members have ever heard this expression before? _______________________ Don Rogalski and Toni Kuo "A Billion Bridges" Chinese<>English Translation Services Tel: 905-308-9389 Fax: 801-881-0914 (24 hrs) Web: www.billionbridges.com Email: translation at billionbridges.com From realitygdk at MSN.COM Tue Dec 4 04:50:18 2001 From: realitygdk at MSN.COM (realitygdk at MSN.COM) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 20:50:18 -0800 Subject: Change of e-mail address to Message-ID: Hi! I am writing to let you know that I have a new e-mail address: . You can use it to send me e-mail and to send me instant messages using MSN Messenger or MSN Explorer's Online Contacts. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 4 06:30:38 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 01:30:38 EST Subject: C.M.P.; Turtle Candy; Penne Pasta Message-ID: The menus in New York Technical College's Ursula Schwein Library were most all from the 1980s and 1990s. I looked through most of them in a few hours. You have to get past the guards to get into the building, go to the fourth floor, and then get approval again to enter the library...And then five people came up to me and thought I worked there. -------------------------------------------------------- C.M.P. C.M.P.--a sundae of Chocolate, Marshmallow, and Peanuts--is on the menu of Betty Brown's, 622 Broadway (1987). A web search shows that it's popular in Pennsylvania. Heisler's Cloverleaf Dairy claims to have registered CMP, but I couldn't find it in the U. S. Patent & Trademark Office. -------------------------------------------------------- TURTLE CANDY (continued) We discussed this last year. Nestle's, at www.nestlenewbiz.com/producs/confecions/turtles.html, claims it's been around 70 years. The USPTO has a Nestle's/DeMet's Inc. filing claiming first use on February 7, 1945. It's No. 71481318. -------------------------------------------------------- PENNE PASTA There were a lot of similar Italian 1980s menus. Unfortunately, many of the menus were not dated. Those "tiramisu" were useless. IL CORTILE, 125 Mulberry Street, has a menu from 1980 but "Prices listed are from 1979." Penne con Rugda... 7.50 Z-T con zucchini al Forno... 9.00 (Interesting "Z-T" for "ziti"--ed.) From FIORELLO'S menu, September 1983: Penne Carbonara... 9.50 (with Italian Bacon, Scallions, Olive Oil and Egg) -------------------------------------------------------- CROISSANDWICH A Feb. 1, 1985 menu from CROISSANT AND CO., 200 West 57th Street, has "Croissandwiches." USPTO records show Sara Lee/Burger King registering "croissan'wich" and "croissandwich" with a first use of 19830926. Also on the menu is "New, Palmiers (Rabbit ears) 1.15." -------------------------------------------------------- GEORGIA SALAD AT GAGE & TOLLNER "Georgia Salad" is on several Gage & Tollner menus. This Brooklyn institution goes back to 1879. The first G&T menu (undated) offers Georgia Salad for 20 cents; "Gold Seal" 1916 is on the drink portion of the menu. -------------------------------------------------------- SANKACHINO & MOCHACHINO (1984) The menu for P. CEE'S, 161-50 Crossbay Boulevard, Howard Beach, from 1984 has: SANKACHINEO (steam milk with Sanka) MOCHACHINO (steamed cocoa with Espresso) -------------------------------------------------------- CAPPUCCINO ALLA STEGGA (THE WITCH) PICCIOLO (established 1936), 2nd Street and Collins Avenue, Miami Beach, has a menu with photos of the restaurant in 1936 through 1970. It was one of Miami's first and largest Italian restaurants. The undated menu is probably from about 1970. SURF & TURF Filet Mignon & Lobster 10.95 CAPPUCCINO ALL STREGGA (The Witch) (1/2 Steamed Milk + 1/2 Espresso, Anisette Liqueur, Whipped Cream topped with Stregga) 2.50 From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Tue Dec 4 16:03:44 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:03:44 -0500 Subject: "Little Italy" In-Reply-To: <16d.500ccd1.293d5dce@aol.com> Message-ID: Merriam-Webster's earliest cite for "Little Italy" doesn't go quite as far back as the 1890s, but it comes pretty close. This one refers to the NYC neighborhood: When at last the heavy wagons start to leave the pier and the "specked" potatoes are turned out on the boards these Italians squat about the gift, draw out from somewhere long, sharp knives ground at the sidewalk mills of "Little Italy," and begin to slash, cut and peel. Such are their manners -- long years of training have developed an ideal etiquette for these occasions -- that they make no rude grabs for the largest and best speciments, but take the poor and the less poor as they come, all the time preserving that silence which the women of Mulberry-st. [sic] deem the height of good taste at gatherings like these. N.J. Trib. Sup. Feb. 11, 1900 Here's our earliest for the generic use: In the mews round about the Potteries are the remnants of the Italian colony that drifted here some years ago, when Little Italy in Clerkenwell began to be encroached upon by the modern builder. The Strand No. 161 (1909) Page 549 Joanne Despres From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Tue Dec 4 15:43:52 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:43:52 -0500 Subject: Laddering (of stock) Message-ID: The New York Times article, which is available at http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/02/business/yourmoney/02SUIT.html describes the alleged practice of requiring brokerage customers, as a condition of receiving allocations in an initial public offering, to purchase additional shares in the aftermarket at progressively higher prices. As far as I can tell, this use of the term was invented by the lawyers discussed in the article. The earliest use I've seen is in a press release from the law firm of Lovell & Stewart, LLP, carried on Business Wire on March 14, 2001: "The requirement that customers make additional purchases at progressively higher prices as the price of VA Linux stock rocketed upward (a practice known on Wall Street as "laddering") was intended to (and did) drive Linux's share price up to artificially high levels." Previously, "laddering" was applied only to the legitimate investment technique of staggering bond maturities, as shown by this quote from the December 1, 1987, issue of Money: "If income is your chief goal, but you still worry about possible drops in the value of your portfolio, you might stagger your maturities even more - a technique known as laddering. You might, say, buy bonds with two-, four-, six-, eight- and 10-year maturities if you have sufficient capital. If rates rise, you could reinvest the short-term bonds at the higher rates as they mature. On the other hand, if rates fall, your longer-term bonds will appreciate in value." John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [SMTP:Bapopik at AOL.COM] > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 1:13 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Laddering (of stock) > > "Laddering" is explained in "Flood of Lawsuits Puts Underwriters in > Cross Hairs," by Jonathan D. Glater, SUNDAY NEW YORK TIMES, business > section, 2 December 2001, on www.nytimes.com. > Supposedly, during the 1990s, internet and other stocks were "laddered" > to go higher, creating a stock bubble. > > From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Tue Dec 4 15:55:31 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:55:31 -0500 Subject: "Little Italy" Message-ID: A quick search of MOA Cornell finds "Little Italy" in NYC mentioned in The North American review, September 1891, 153 #418, in Mrs. Mary A. Livermore's Cooperative Womanhood in the State, p.293. http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=%2Fmoa%2Fnora%2Fnora0153%2F&tif=00297.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DABQ7578-0153-30 Robert Louis Stevenson is one of the authors of a comment, in The Wrecker about the Little Italy area of San Francisco, in 1891, Scribner's magazine, 10 #4 (October), p.429. http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=%2Fmoa%2Fscri%2Fscri0010%2F&tif=00437.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DAFR7379-0010-47 The "Little Italy" of Ellis Island is mentioned in at least two MOA Cornell sources. The concept of a room being a "little Italy", in Boston, is presented in The Atlantic monthly, 23 #138, April 1969, in W. D. Howell's Doorstep Acquaintance, on p.485. "as we had made a little Italy together" http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?root=%2Fmoa%2Fatla%2Fatla0023%2F&tif=00491.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DABK2934-0023-73&coll=moa&frames=1&view=50 Most of the other sources presented at MOA Cornell are from the 1890s. I didn't check all of them. George Cole Shippensburg University From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Tue Dec 4 23:48:54 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:48:54 -0800 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: Sagehen: > I more often hear realtors pronounced REEL a tors. I've heard "reel-a-tors" too. Right here in Rain City, otherwise known as Seattle. I think this is pretty much in the same vein as nucular and libary. and julery. Anne G From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 5 00:59:58 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 19:59:58 -0500 Subject: "Little Italy" In-Reply-To: <3C0CF1F3.C4F47F77@ark.ship.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, GSCole wrote: > A quick search of MOA Cornell finds "Little Italy" in NYC mentioned in > The North American review, September 1891, 153 #418, in Mrs. Mary A. > Livermore's Cooperative Womanhood in the State, p.293. The New York "Little Italy" is mentioned in Science, Vol. 9, No. 226. (Jun. 3, 1887), p. 530. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Dec 5 01:14:06 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:14:06 -0500 Subject: "Little Italy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 04, 2001 at 07:59:58PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote: > On Tue, 4 Dec 2001, GSCole wrote: > > > A quick search of MOA Cornell finds "Little Italy" in NYC mentioned in > > The North American review, September 1891, 153 #418, in Mrs. Mary A. > > Livermore's Cooperative Womanhood in the State, p.293. > > The New York "Little Italy" is mentioned in Science, Vol. 9, No. 226. > (Jun. 3, 1887), p. 530. That's _a_ New York "Little Italy". It's one on what is now the Upper East Side, between Madison and Fifth near Central Park; it's not the one around Mulberry Street that is now usually considered _the_ Little Italy in New York. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 5 01:33:50 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:33:50 EST Subject: Larousse Gastronomique (2001) Message-ID: LAROUSSE GASTRONOMIQUE: THE WORLD'S GREATEST CULINARY ENCYCLOPEDIA COMPLETELY REVISED AND UPDATED Clarkson Potter, NY hardcover, 1350 pages $75 (Amazon has 30% off) 2001 Here it is. It's out. The completely revised and updated version of the "world's greatest culinary encyclopedia." It says so right on the cover. Pg. 611: _HOT DOG_ (...) The name "hot dog" was coined around 1900 by the (Pg. 612--ed.) American cartoonist T. A. Dorgan, when he drew talking sausages resembling dachshunds. Just pitiful. What exactly is this book trying to accomplish? Go to Google.com, type in the food or cuisine you want, and you'll find more information, in greater depth, with greater accuracy, than in LAROUSSE. And for free! "Martini" isn't in the index. The "cocktail" entry is short and useless. So much for drinks. "Crepes Suzette" is still wrong. There are almost no etymologies or dates given. For example, "taco" is six lines of drivel, with no dates or etymologies whatsoever. There are many full-color, full-page photos in the book, but they all look like padding. They have no historical significance to the food at all. I'm looking for the bibliography...there's gotta be one in here somewhere.... Many recipes are given, but where do they come from? Why not give historical recipes, from the old cookbooks, and cite them? The entries lead you to no books or articles on the subject. I guess that's for the bibliography. I'm still looking for a bibliography.... Here's an example of what I mean, from pg. 304: CIOPPINO A dish from San Francisco consisting of a stew of white fish, large prawns (shrimp), clams and mussels, with a garlic, tomato and white-wine base. Yes, that's the entire entry. What does "cioppino" mean? Is it Italian? Does it come from Genoa? When was it first served? Where can I find a recipe? If you type "cioppino" into Google and pick a response at random, you'd be hard-pressed to find anything worse. I don't know what Andrew Smith has in mind for the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK (2003). I'll probably have lunch with him about it next week. My advice is, do NOT follow LAROUSSE GASTRONOMIQUE. Each entry should have dates, cites, historical recipes, and an historical photo if possible. It's gotta be a reference work that people should cite as authoritative. It's gotta have original work that you won't find anywhere else. And leave the "greatest culinary encyclopedia" puffery off the cover. People will decide for themselves. If you don't like Amazon's 30% discount, check the Strand used bookstore in a few months. You'll probably find a whole shelf. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 5 02:04:41 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:04:41 EST Subject: Jahn's restaurant slang (1983) Message-ID: This menu was in the New York City Technical College's library. It's from Jahn's (established since 1897), the famous soda fountain known for its "kitchen sink," "boiler maker," and other creations that I described here before. The menu is from 1983, but has an old-time look to it and tries (unsuccessfully) to describe origins of the "soda fountain," the "egg cream," and others. This, on page 3, is difficult to read, but still interesting: _LOOK ALIVE_ _Order It In Code!_ _CUSTOMER_ _CLERK_ _Soda_ _Plate_ _Sundae_ Vanilla............White.....In......Up......On Chocolate..........One or Black.In...Up......On Strawberry.........Straw.....In......Up......On Coffee.............Mocha.....In......Up......On Walnut.............Nut.......In......Up......On Lemon..............Sour......In......Up......On Black Raspberry....Purple....In......Up......On Pistachio..........Green.....In......Up......On Butter Pecan.......Butter....In......Up......On Peach..............Georgia...In......Up......On Cherry Vanilla.....Red.......In......Up......On _COMBINATIONS_ _SODAS_ _PLATES_ _SUNDAES_ Chocolate Syrup with Vanilla Ice Cream........Half Chocolate Syrup with Strawberry Ice Cream.....Flatbush Chocolate Syrup with Walnut Ice Cream.........Bayonne Chocolate and Coffee Syrup with Coffee Ice Cream...Broadway Pineapple Syrup with Chocolate Ice Cream......Hoboken All Others By Color or Name _EXAMPLES_ Sodas--4 In--1 Half, 1 Straw, 1 Hobo, 1 Reverse Sundaes--4 On--1 Green, 1 Purple, 1 Rum, 1 Sour Plates--4 Up--1 Flatbush, 1 Broadway, 1 Bayonne, 1 White Marsh--Always on Black Fudge--Always on White Split--Always on White and Straw Unless Otherwise Specified Large Coke--Stretch with: Vanilla--Blonde; Chocolate-- Brunette; Cherry--Redhead; Lemon--Sour Root Beer--R. B. Pink Lady--Lady Orangeade--O. A. Lemonade--L. A. Orange Juice--O. J. Line Rickey--Rickey Lemon and Lime--L. L. Plain Seltzer--21 Hot Chocolate--51-2-3 etc. (See RHHDAS for "51"--ed.) No Ice or Nuts--86 (See RHHDAS for "86"--ed.) No Whipped Cream--Sundaes--Plain; Sodas--86 Cake with Ice Cream--a la White, Black, etc. Cake with Whipped Cream--Spank It Float--Hang--Same as Sodas--Plates Malted--Burn--Same as Sodas--Plates Frosted--Freeze--Same as Sodas--Plates Frosted Malted Float--Mutilate It (Also on the menu: "COOLERIZERS" such as lemonade and Sprite and Tab. "TWOSDAY... 3.85" is "TWO SUNDAES AND A SODA"--ed.) From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Wed Dec 5 05:17:34 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 21:17:34 -0800 Subject: DEE-fense Message-ID: some additions to the southern/south midlands/aave list of forestressed nouns: DEtroit, UMbrella, JUly, CIgar, HOtel/MOtel. (there are a also fair number with alternative stressings, both presumably "general american", listed in u.s. dictionaries: address, moustache, romance, chauffeur [all nouns].) a grad student here points out that fasold & wolfram (1970) list POlice, HOtel, and JUly as representative shifted words in aave ("Negro dialect" back then), and that others have cited this same list, somewhat extended, since then. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From Ittaob at AOL.COM Wed Dec 5 13:35:57 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:35:57 EST Subject: "Little Italy" Message-ID: In a message dated 12/4/01 8:14:24 PM, jester at PANIX.COM writes: << That's _a_ New York "Little Italy". It's one on what is now the Upper East Side, between Madison and Fifth near Central Park; >> The Upper E. Side Little Italy was between First and Second Avenues in the vicinity of E. 116th St. Steve Boatti From jester at PANIX.COM Wed Dec 5 14:26:49 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:26:49 -0500 Subject: "Little Italy" In-Reply-To: <109.9c50913.293f7cbd@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 08:35:57AM -0500, Ittaob at AOL.COM wrote: > In a message dated 12/4/01 8:14:24 PM, jester at PANIX.COM writes: > > << That's _a_ New York "Little Italy". It's one on what is now the Upper > East Side, between Madison and Fifth near Central Park; >> > > The Upper E. Side Little Italy was between First and Second Avenues in the > vicinity of E. 116th St. The cite for which Fred Shapiro posted the bibliography quite clearly refers to a Little Italy between Madison and Fifth near Central Park. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Ittaob at AOL.COM Wed Dec 5 14:40:31 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:40:31 EST Subject: "Little Italy" Message-ID: In a message dated 12/5/01 9:34:48 AM, jester at PANIX.COM writes: << The cite for which Fred Shapiro posted the bibliography quite clearly refers to a Little Italy between Madison and Fifth near Central Park. >> Then there must have been more than one, for there was absolutely one at around 116th and First. Remnants of it still survive in the form of restaurants, funeral homes, etc. It was quite famous in its day. Steve From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 5 02:18:03 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:18:03 +0800 Subject: "Little Italy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:40 AM -0500 12/5/01, Ittaob at AOL.COM wrote: >In a message dated 12/5/01 9:34:48 AM, jester at PANIX.COM writes: > ><< The cite for which Fred Shapiro posted the bibliography quite clearly >refers to a Little Italy between Madison and Fifth near Central Park. > >> > >Then there must have been more than one, for there was absolutely one at >around 116th and First. Remnants of it still survive in the form of >restaurants, funeral homes, etc. It was quite famous in its day. > Right; that's the one we discussed in some detail earlier, as I recall--home of Rao's, counterexample to my ignorant claim that "Little Italy" is a name rather than a description, and that there could only be one (the Lower East Side/Mulberry St.) one in Manhattan, etc. Evidently there's no constraint on how many there can be even on the upper East Side (although perhaps those two were not coevals). Let a thousand Little Italys (Italies?) bloom! larry From Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM Wed Dec 5 21:17:56 2001 From: Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:17:56 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: Does anyone know how the phrase "Mickey Mouse" came to describe "a person or organization with a lot of poorly-justified, nit-picking rules"? IMHO the cartoon character isn't like that and never has been. (This question arises from a discussion of intellectual property rights on another list I'm on. It is completely unrelated to today's being the hundredth anniversary of the birth of Walter Elias Disney.) -- Mark From e.pears2 at VERIZON.NET Wed Dec 5 21:41:13 2001 From: e.pears2 at VERIZON.NET (Enid Pearsons) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:41:13 -0500 Subject: gap in the OED Message-ID: It's in RHUD, too. I suppose I shouldn't care anymore, but... Enid Formerly of... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barnhart" To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:17 PM Subject: Re: gap in the OED | preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU,Net writes: | >Do you mean to say 'implicature' is not in the dictionary? | | >dInIs (implicaturing all over the place) | | implicature is | | AHD 4th edition + | | Regards, | David | | barnhart at highlands.com From clean at CTV.ES Wed Dec 5 22:11:00 2001 From: clean at CTV.ES (!PUBLICIDAD) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 23:11:00 +0100 Subject: POZOS SEPTICOS - ACTIVADORES BIOLGICOS PARA ELIMINAR OLORES PUBLICIDAD! Message-ID: Gasolineras, Estaciones de tren, Hoteles, Chalets, Turismo rural, etc... Para evitar olores en los urinarios, retretes, sifones de los urinarios, en el sif?n del suelo, en el propio suelo y los procedentes del pozo s?ptico e impedir que las grasas taponen el drenaje inutilizando el pozo. Activadores biol?gicos naturales para eliminar olores en pozos s?pticos, depuradoras, etc. Tratamientos de Purines, Alpechin, Alpeorujo etc. http://www.ctv.es/clean_world_hispania/ http://www.ctv.es/clean_world_hispania/odour.htm http://www.ctv.es/clean_world_hispania/fosassepticaspozossepticos.htm http://www.ctv.es/clean_world_hispania/enviosPOZOSNEGROS.html http://www.ctv.es/clean_world_hispania/PEDIDO.htm ?PUBLICIDAD! Baja autom?tica en clean at ctv.es indicando REMOVER Clean World Hispania Poligono Asuar?n nave 16 48950 Asua Vizcaya Espa?a 944710500 - Fax 944711324 From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Dec 5 23:09:06 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 17:09:06 -0600 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: On 12/5/01, Mark Mandel wrote: >Does anyone know how the phrase "Mickey Mouse" came to describe "a >person or organization with a lot of poorly-justified, nit-picking >rules"? IMHO the cartoon character isn't like that and never has >been. It's not so much from the Mickey Mouse character itself as from TV's Mickey Mouse club, with its pre-adolescent members wearing the silly-looking Mickey-Mouse ears and earnestly singing the Mickey Mouse anthem. To sophisticates, this no doubt represented the height of silliness. Then by extension: silly (nit-picking) rules or directives. Also, in the jazz era a Mickey Mouse band was one regarded as fit only to play for an animated cartoon. (See Robert Gold's _Jazz Talk_). But the present derogatory use of Mickey Mouse does not seem to derive from this jazz use. ---Gerald Cohen From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 5 23:26:32 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:26:32 EST Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: MICKEY MOUSE: The RHHDAS H-O has a huge entry for this. A SOUTHWESTERN DICTIONARY: The M.A. thesis title by Rose Jeanne Carlisle, University of New Mexico, 1939. Has anyone seen this? Can Gerald Cohen inter-library loan it? (UMI doesn't carry it.) LOC: Maybe I'll go to the Library of Congress tomorrow. Jesse Sheidlower wanted me to check on CALIFORNIA FISH & GAME? What was it? From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Dec 5 23:47:54 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:47:54 EST Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: In a message dated 12/05/2001 4:31:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM writes: > Does anyone know how the phrase "Mickey Mouse" came to describe "a person > or organization with a lot of poorly-justified, nit-picking rules"? IMHO > the cartoon character isn't like that and never has been. I am told it is US Army slang from World War II. Unfortunately the book I think I'm quoting from is AWOL from my library. I think the definition you give better fits the word "chickenshit". A "Mickey Mouse outfit" is an organization that is too small (physically mentally or morally) to do the job it's supposed to, but doen not necessarily connote nit-picking bureaucracy the way "chicken-shit does". - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Wed Dec 5 23:51:35 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:51:35 EST Subject: "How do you make a small fortune in lexicography?" Message-ID: "There's a joke baseball owners like to tell: 'How do you make a small fortune owning a baseball team? Start with a large fortune!'" --VILLAGE VOICE (www.villagevoice.com), jockbeat column in latest issue Does Fred Shapiro have this one? A web check ("make a small fortune" & "large") shows the joke in many different fields. Paul Dickson might be interested, but I don't think it originated in baseball. Where did it originate? If I had to guess, I'd pick Wall Street. 1960s? From a recent cartoon on TheStreet at www.thestreet.com/markets/lolfree/00001709.html: "It's easy to make a small fortune. All you need to start with is a large fortune." From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Dec 5 23:56:40 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:56:40 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry Jim, them Micky-Mouse and chiceknshit outfits got the same connotations to me. I'm going to bed now to think abdut the usage and/or semantic distinctions between the two. At the moment they seem mighty slim, but a little slumber may reveal something. dInIs >In a message dated 12/05/2001 4:31:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, >Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM writes: > >> Does anyone know how the phrase "Mickey Mouse" came to describe "a person >> or organization with a lot of poorly-justified, nit-picking rules"? IMHO >> the cartoon character isn't like that and never has been. > >I am told it is US Army slang from World War II. Unfortunately the book I >think I'm quoting from is AWOL from my library. > >I think the definition you give better fits the word "chickenshit". A >"Mickey Mouse outfit" is an organization that is too small (physically >mentally or morally) to do the job it's supposed to, but doen not necessarily >connote nit-picking bureaucracy the way "chicken-shit does". > > - Jim Landau -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Dec 6 02:44:15 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:44:15 -0800 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: Gerald and all: > > It's not so much from the Mickey Mouse character itself as from > TV's Mickey Mouse club, with its pre-adolescent members wearing the > silly-looking Mickey-Mouse ears and earnestly singing the Mickey > Mouse anthem. To sophisticates, this no doubt represented the height > of silliness. Then by extension: silly (nit-picking) rules or > directives. > > Also, in the jazz era a Mickey Mouse band was one regarded as fit > only to play for an animated cartoon. (See Robert Gold's _Jazz > Talk_). But the present derogatory use of Mickey Mouse does not seem > to derive from this jazz use. About 30 years ago or so, if a college course was thought to be absurdly easy to pass, it was called a "Mickey Mouse" course. Anne G From tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU Thu Dec 6 14:44:49 2001 From: tharriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:44:49 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: <002901c17dff$e6f912e0$cefafd3f@u5a9c9> Message-ID: Whatever the origin, terms of abuse seem always to escape from their original restrictions, and the Mouseketeers song must at least have modified the range of application. My memory is of my college days in the sixties, the homecoming parade, and platoons of drunken fraternity boys perched on the roofs of their houses, singing M-I-C, K-E-Y, M-O-U-S-E, as the ROTC contingent marched by. Thom At 06:44 PM 12/5/01 -0800, you wrote: >Gerald and all: >> >> It's not so much from the Mickey Mouse character itself as from >> TV's Mickey Mouse club, with its pre-adolescent members wearing the >> silly-looking Mickey-Mouse ears and earnestly singing the Mickey >> Mouse anthem. To sophisticates, this no doubt represented the height >> of silliness. Then by extension: silly (nit-picking) rules or >> directives. >> >> Also, in the jazz era a Mickey Mouse band was one regarded as fit >> only to play for an animated cartoon. (See Robert Gold's _Jazz >> Talk_). But the present derogatory use of Mickey Mouse does not seem >> to derive from this jazz use. > >About 30 years ago or so, if a college course was thought to be absurdly >easy to pass, it was called a "Mickey Mouse" course. >Anne G > Thom Harrison Macon State College From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 6 02:06:06 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:06:06 +0800 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: <002901c17dff$e6f912e0$cefafd3f@u5a9c9> Message-ID: At 6:44 PM -0800 12/5/01, ANNE V. GILBERT wrote: >About 30 years ago or so, if a college course was thought to be absurdly >easy to pass, it was called a "Mickey Mouse" course. >Anne G This one goes back to the 1950's, as the RHHDAS cites indicate, and continues at least through the mid '90's. (I think it's still around.) Larry From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 6 17:01:58 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:01:58 EST Subject: Ciopino (July 1917) Message-ID: Greetings from the Library of Congress, where, as expected, POKER, SMOKE AND OTHER THINGS (1907), the book on smoking and drink that's missing from the NYPL, is also missing here. It's CIOPINO here, not CIOPPINO. CALIFORNIA FISH AND GAME Volume 3 San Francisco, July 1917 Number 3 Pg. 130, col. 1: _CIOPINO._ The ciopino (pronounced chipeno) is one of the simplest, healthiest and cheapest ways of cooking fish. Originated by Italians, it is cooked and eaten by them almost exclusively. Ciopino is a great dish among the fishermen, some practically living on it because of its healthfulness and muscle-building qualities, and the ease with which it is prepared. When fishermen are out on trips for days at a time the only supplies that are taken are bread, wine, a little coffee and the ingredients that are used to make up a ciopino, depending on their luck to catch the needed fish. Butter is never used in the preparation of the ciopino, olive oil taking its place. There are a great many kinds of ciopino; that is, most of the people that cook it prepare the dish in a slightly different way. Sometimes it is what one might call fancy, shellfish, celery, parsley, wine, etc., being used in the preparation. But the kind generally prepared by the fisher folk is very simple and inexpensive, the olive oil used being the most expensive ingredient. Some prefer salad oil, which is less expensive and not quite so rich. The large sized fishes are generally used in making the ciopino on account of th e size of the bones. Most any of the larger sized ocean fishes, such as the rock fishes, rock bass, sea bass, halibut, and barracuda, can be used. The wings of the skate are highly prized among the Italian fishermen for a ciopino; striped bass are very fine. Several different varieties of fish are sometimes (Col. 2--ed.) used. The ciopino is neither a roast, chowder nor a fry. In America, it would probably be nearer a pot roast than anything else. In preparing a ciopino the whole fish is used including the head, which contains some of the best part of the fish. Ciopino, such as is made by the fishermen, is prepared as follows: For five people use from three to five pounds of fish sliced in fairly large pieces, then prepare one or two onions, depending on size, by chopping them up quite fine. Place in a stewpot one-half cup of olive oil (salad oil may be used) and add the onions, frying them until yellow, in the meantime adding several cloves, garlic, and a little parsley. Add a can of tomatoes (raw tomatoes may be used) and cook for about ten minutes. If potatoes are used (a great many never use potatoes in the preparation) they should then be added and cooked for five to ten minutes. Add fish, covering it well with the tomatoes, onions, etc., season with salt, and rather highly with pepper or paprica, put on the lid and let simmer until done. Don't stir. A little water may be added if desired. Serve in a deep plate. Ciopino may be poured over French or Italian bread. Owing to the present high cost of living, the people should take advantage of the cheaper kinds of fish, which when properly prepared are just as good and represent just as much food value as the more expensive kinds. Get the ciopino habit and fool the butcher several times a week.--H. R. NIDEVER. (A bit better explanation than in "the world's greatest culinary encyclopedia," newly revised--ed.) From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 6 17:07:55 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:07:55 -0500 Subject: Ciopino (July 1917) In-Reply-To: <3a.1ee58a79.2940fe86@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:01:58PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > Greetings from the Library of Congress, where, as expected, POKER, > SMOKE AND OTHER THINGS (1907), the book on smoking and drink that's > missing from the NYPL, is also missing here. There are two copies for sale on ABEBooks, so if you feel like investing $100 or $110, you can have your very own copy of a book in neither the NYPL or the LoC! Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 6 17:21:38 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:21:38 EST Subject: Brownstone Front Cake (1882) Message-ID: "Brownstone Front Cake" is in the earlier edition of the Saratoga cookbook previously cited...Someone on Deja.com insists "Brownstone Front Cake" is 150 years old, going back to the 1850s or 1860s. "OUR HOME FAVORITE" PUBLISHED BY THE YOUNG WOMEN'S HOME MISSION CIRCLE OF THE FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH SARATOGA SPRINGS, N. Y. 1882 SARATOGA STPRINGS: THE DAILY SARATOGIAN STEAM JOB PRINT. 1882 Pg. 15: FRENCH CORN MUFFINS. Pg. 18: SARATOGA POTATOES...CATSKILL POTATOES. Pg. 48: MACARONI AND CHEESE. Pg. 52: COCOANUT PIE...CHOCOLATE CUSTARD PIE. Pg. 53: GARFIELD PIE...MARLBOROUGH PIE. Pg. 66: DELMONICO PUDDING. Pg. 73: TUTTI FRUTTI, OR FROZEN PUDDING. Pg. 82: HUCKLEBERRY CAKE. Pg. 85: ANGEL'S FOOD. Pg. 86: WHIPPED-CREAM CAKE...SNAP DOODLE. Pg. 90: WHITE MOUNTAIN CAKE. Pg. 92: BROWN STONE FRONT. 1 1-2 cups sugar, 1-2 cup butter, 2 eggs, 1 cup sweet milk, 3 cups flour, 3 teaspoons baking powder; flavor with vanilla. For the dark part use 1 1-2 squares grated chocolate, 1-2 cup brown sugar and 3 tablespoons milk. Add 7 spoonfuls of the white part and stir well. Bake the dark in 2 layers and the white in 3. Filling.--Melt 1-4 cake of chocolate in a very little water; boil, then thicken with powdered sugar. E. LENA CURTIS. Pg. 97: PRUNELLA DROPS. Pg. 100: GINGER SNAPS. Pg. 104: CHOW-CHOW. Pg. 105: HIGDUM...QUEEN OF ODE SAUCE. Pg. 111: MOLASSES CANDY...CHOCOLATE CARAMELS. Pg. 112: POP CORN BALLS. From AAllan at AOL.COM Thu Dec 6 17:57:07 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:57:07 EST Subject: New Visiting Scholars opportunity Message-ID: In fall 2002, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences will launch a new Visiting Scholars Center at its headquarters in Cambridge. The Center will stimulate and support research conducted by promising younger scholars and will foster interaction with Academy Fellows on scholarly and public policy issues. We ask your help in bringing this opportunity to the attention of the members of your association. [Done. - A.M.] Candidates are invited to submit proposals related to one of the Academy's core areas of research--Science, Technology, and Global Security; Social Policy and Education; and Humanities and Culture--and to a number of special themes for 2002-2003. Further information, guidelines and an application form are available on the Academy's website at www.amacad.org. The stipend for post-doctoral fellows is $35,000; the stipend for junior faculty is $45,000. The deadline for applications is January 21, 2002. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 6 18:03:24 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:03:24 EST Subject: Taco (1914) Message-ID: From the book missing from the NYPL: CALIFORNIA MEXICAN-SPANISH COOK BOOK Selected Mexican and Spanish Recipes By Bertha Haffner-Ginger 1914 Pg. 45 (photo): TACO Made by putting chopped cooked beef and chile sauce in tortilla made of meal and flour; folded, edges sealed together with egg; fried in deep fat, chile sauce served on it. From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Dec 6 18:09:14 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:09:14 -0800 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: Larry: > This one goes back to the 1950's, as the RHHDAS cites indicate, and > continues at least through the mid '90's. (I think it's still > around.) So are there two separate slang definitions of "Mickey Mouse"? Anne g From jester at PANIX.COM Thu Dec 6 18:11:19 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:11:19 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: <003201c17e81$1e9bea20$5bfafd3f@u5a9c9> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 10:09:14AM -0800, ANNE V. GILBERT wrote: > Larry: > > > This one goes back to the 1950's, as the RHHDAS cites indicate, and > > continues at least through the mid '90's. (I think it's still > > around.) > > So are there two separate slang definitions of "Mickey Mouse"? The HDAS lists twenty-two separate slang definitions of "Mickey Mouse", not counting combined forms. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 6 18:36:07 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:36:07 EST Subject: Amber Candy & Bachelor's Buttons (1887) Message-ID: CENTENNIAL COOKERY BOOK. SOLD FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE WOMAN'S CENTENNIAL ASSOCIATION OF MARIETTA, OHIO 1788. APRIL 7, 1888 TIMES PRINT, MARIETTA, O. 1887 Pg. 1: APPLE JOHNNIE CAKE. Pg. 2: BOSTON BROWN BREAD...LIGHT BREAD (USING POTATO BALL). Pg. 7: FRENCH TOAST OR FRENCH BREAD. Pg. 8: HARESA...HUCKLEBERRY CAKE...INDIAN BREAD. Pg. 9: LAPLAND, OR BREAKFAST CAKES...DAPHNE'S MUFFINS. Pg. 10: MARYLAND BISCUIT. Pg. 11: POCKETBOOKS...POPOVERS. Pg. 27: BEZIQUE SOUP. Pg. 42: FRENCH COFFEE. Pg. 47: OLD VIRGINIA CHOW-CHOW. Pg. 64: RUSSIAN SALAD. Pg. 72: ANGEL'S FOOD. Pg. 73: BACHELOR'S BUTTONS. MRS. W. W. MILLS. One-half teacup butter, 2 eggs, 3 small cups of flour, 2 cups powdered sugar. Rub the butter and flour together, then the sugar (Pg. 74--ed.) and moisten it with the eggs. Flavor with vanilla. Drop on tins, making large as macaroons. Very good. These can be made twice the size of a macaroon. Add a pinch of preserve on each after baking; cover with icing. Pg. 77: COLORADO CREAM CAKE...DELMONICO FILLING...DETROIT SPICE CAKE. Pg. 87: PINE APPLE CAKE. Pg. 90: SAND TARTS. (2 recipes--ed.) Pg. 91: WHITE PERFECTION CAKE. Pg. 92: WHITE MOUNTAIN CAKE. Pg. 111: AMBER CREAM...BOHEMIAM CREAM...BAVARIAN CREAM. Pg. 112: BANANA ICE CREAM. Pg. 115: ICE CREAM--PEACH. Pg. 118: MOONSHINE. Pg. 127: AMBER CANDY. MRS. WOODRUFF. Two cups sugar, 1 cup vinegar. Boil but not stir until it crisps in cold water, turn on buttered pans, thin. When cold break and eat. Pg. 127: BUTTER SCOTCH...CHOCOLATE CARAMELS. Pg. 129: ORANGE BON-BONS...TAFFY...WHITE TAFFY. From RonButters at AOL.COM Thu Dec 6 20:39:24 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:39:24 EST Subject: Amber Candy & Bachelor's Buttons (1887) Message-ID: This reminds me of AMBER MUTANT--the name of a virus that eats bacteria. There is a whole family of them, all with color terms. Does anyone remember the story of how these got their names? From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Dec 6 20:31:13 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:31:13 -0500 Subject: "white alleys" Message-ID: The following passage appears in the memoir of an NYC cop, active about 1900-1925. "I dont think Monk had a gun on him when he was killed and whether he ever had a chance for his white alley, I dont know." Cornelius W. Willemse A Cop Remembers N. Y.: E. P. Dutton, 1933, p. 215. [Monk Eastman was a reformed gangster turned war-hero of sorts, who was murdered in Union Square in I think 1920.] DAE, under "alley", defines it as a marble, such as boys play with, and gives several 19th C. quotations referring specifically to "white alleys" and indicating that it was a particularly valuable marble. I assuming that the "white alley" was the shooting marble used when playing marbles, and that to lose one's white alley, or have it taken, was to be put out of the game; and therefore Willemse is wondering whether Eastman had had a chance to defend his life. But although I had marbles when a boy, I never "played marbles" and so I don't know. Some of you rounders must have been marble-shooters when young. What do you say? I seem to recall that Dialect Notes (?) many decades ago published a vocabulary of marble-shooting. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Thu Dec 6 21:10:50 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:10:50 -0500 Subject: "white alleys" Message-ID: MOA-Cornell, with reference to a person's thoughts about playing a game of marbles, "thinking how many good shots he could make if he only had a 'white alley' to start with." In Scribners monthly, NY, 9#5, March 1875, in story: Home and Society, p.632. http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=%2Fmoa%2Fscmo%2Fscmo0009%2F&tif=00638.TIF&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fcdl.library.cornell.edu%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmoa%2Fmoa-cgi%3Fnotisid%3DABP7664-0009-108 ====================== Less certain use of 'white alley' in the following account. At MOA-Michigan, in journals, in an account of a group trying to travel across some rough land, in rough weather, the foreman is shown to be a driven person, forcing people to move on, even if they wished to stop. The narrator, uncertain of how he should view the foreman, notes: "So I went on, dodging between two opinions, and trying to give Burkit a show for his white alley, in my own mind, for the sake of his gentleness with the consumptive...." In the Overland monthly and Out West magazine, Nov. 1897, 30 iss. 139, in the story Bully Burkit, by Francis Lynde, p. 444. http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/m/moajrnl/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=75&root=mm000082%2F1397over%2Fv0030%2Fi179&tif=04660444.tif&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hti.umich.edu%2Fcgi%2Fm%2Fmoajrnl%2Fmoajrnl-idx%3Fnotisid%3DAHJ1472-1397OVER-116 Similar use of 'white alley', in an account of a fight, "'Hol' on,' called another; 'give him some show for his white alley." They weren't preparing to play marbles. In Overland monthly and Out West magazine, Feb 1894, 23 iss. 134, in the story An Encounter with Chinese Smugglers, by J. C. Nattrass, p.214. http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/m/moajrnl/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=75&root=mm000080%2F1390over%2Fv0023%2Fi134&tif=02200214.tif&cite=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hti.umich.edu%2Fcgi%2Fm%2Fmoajrnl%2Fmoajrnl-idx%3Fnotisid%3DAHJ1472-1390OVER-54 Other cites at the MOA-Michigan site, in both journals and books, appear to be clearly related to the game of marbles. George Cole Shippensburg University From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 6 10:54:20 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 18:54:20 +0800 Subject: WOTY candidate Message-ID: From tonight's ABC World News Tonight on as I write, there's a special feature on "linguistic profiling". Probably been around for awhile. Begins with discrimination against African-Americans based on the perception of race/ethnicity of speakers on the phone. John Baugh (Stanford U.) was featured. Supposedly abcnews.com has an on-line test open to all. larry From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Fri Dec 7 01:18:23 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:18:23 -0500 Subject: ..Richard Roeper, on language.. Message-ID: The 4 DEC 2001 column of Chicago Sun-Times columnist Richard Roeper, titled "New Yorkers say we're the ones who talk funny", expresses his views, somewhat, about a "Midwestern accent", as compared to that of New Yorkers. His comments are not necessarily prepared for an academic audience, and I'm not sure if that is good or bad. http://www.suntimes.com/output/roeper/cst-nws-roep04.html George Cole Shippensburg University From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Dec 7 01:39:38 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:39:38 EST Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: In a message dated 12/05/2001 6:56:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU writes: > Sorry Jim, them Micky-Mouse and chiceknshit outfits got the same > connotations to me. Yes and no. In my experience "chickenshit" is a specialized term, used ONLY to refer to (complain about) nit-picking rules. "Mickey Mouse" is a more general term, usable for anything you wish to describe as petty, petty-minded, undersized, etc. "Chickenshit" therefore is a subset of "Mickey Mouse". Consider "a Mickey Mouse course". Would you also refer to that as a "chickenshit course"? An IBM salesman told me the following joke circa 1976: (Buildup about a rich man deciding to give away his fortune to his sons). Finally he gets to his youngest son, who is a small child. When asked what he wants, the boy replies, "A Mickey Mouse outfit." So the father buys him IBM. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------- The OED2 outdoes itself with "Mickey Mouse". For the derogatory usage, it has a 1935 citation by Sinclair Lewis (who is not noted for his usage of slang): "Goebbels...is privily known throughout Germany as 'Wotan's Mickey Mouse' " and 1936 by another literary giant, George Orwell: "...a sort of Mickey Mouse universe where things and people don't have to obey the rules of space and time." (On second thought, I'm not sure the Orwell quote is derogatory. He may have meant simply "an animated-cartoon-style fantasy universe" rather than a "petty or petty-minded universe".) One possibility: The derogatory usage of "Mickey Mouse" came from the use of mice as a traditional reference to a very small animal, hence to anything perceived as small, even if only metaphorically: "Are you a man or a mouse?" The reference to Goebbels may be due to Goebbels's being short: "As blond as Hitler, as slim as Goering, and as tall as Goebbels". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------- It is interesting to note that Mickey Mouse is NOT mouse-sized. I do not know if Disney or his animators ever had an exact standard size for Mickey, but in most of the cartoons where he is shown next to some object or being whose size can be estimated, he works out to three or at most four feet tall. (Hobbit-sized!) In "Steamboat Willie" he is tall enough to operate the controls of a steamboat. In the scene in _Fantasia_ (both the original and the 2000 version) immedately after "Sorceror's Apprentice" (as far as I know, the only time Mickey is ever shown with a live human without comic intent) he is the right height to get the conductor's attention by reaching for the tail of the conductor's coat. Mickey and Donald are roughly the same size, and Donald is also not duck-sized. - Jim Landau P.S. And who are Huey, Dewey, and Louie? Not Donald's nephews, but rather his acknowledged bustards. From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Fri Dec 7 01:53:48 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:53:48 EST Subject: "How do you make a small fortune in lexicography?" Message-ID: In a message dated 12/05/2001 6:52:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > "There's a joke baseball owners like to tell: 'How do you make a small > fortune owning a baseball team? Start with a large fortune!'" > --VILLAGE VOICE (www.villagevoice.com), jockbeat column in latest issue > > Does Fred Shapiro have this one? > A web check ("make a small fortune" & "large") shows the joke in many > different fields. Paul Dickson might be interested, but I don't think it > originated in baseball. Where did it originate? > If I had to guess, I'd pick Wall Street. 1960s? Sounds to me like the punchline of a Chelm story. Or perhaps an Irish bull. Either one would long antedate the 20th century. A similar joke runs: "Las Vegas (or any other gambling center)---you go there in a thirty thousand dollar car and leave in a hundred fifty thousand dollar bus." - Jim Landau From grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET Fri Dec 7 02:00:09 2001 From: grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:00:09 -0500 Subject: SciFi OED Antedating Message-ID: Saw this link today, regarding the OED looking to antedate SciFi related terms. http://66.108.177.107/SF/sf_citations.shtml "This page is a pilot effort for the Oxford English Dictionary, in which the words associated with a special field of interest are collected so that knowledgable aficionados can help the OED find useful examples of these words. This, our first project, is science fiction literature." -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Dec 7 02:27:33 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:27:33 -0500 Subject: SciFi OED Antedating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Grant Barrett wrote: > Saw this link today, regarding the OED looking to antedate SciFi related > terms. > > http://66.108.177.107/SF/sf_citations.shtml That should actually be http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sf_citations.shtml The numeric address is just what it happens to be resolving to today. The other info is all correct. Best, Jesse Sheidlower OED From grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET Fri Dec 7 02:22:33 2001 From: grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET (Grant Barrett) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:22:33 -0500 Subject: Harijan; Children of God; Scheduled Castes; Dalit Message-ID: I'm curious: we have representatives or experts on this list of many of the Anglophone populations in the world, but is there someone who specializes in the English spoken in India? This little tidbit interested me: http://www.kamat.com/vikas/blog.htm "Gandhiji called the downtrodden people of India as Harijans, or Children of God. Then the word Harijan became a derogatory word, and the downtrodden people asked to be referred to as the Scheduled Castes. Now, apparently the word scheduled caste is considered offensive." This page offers a bit more: http://www.kirklees-ednet.org.uk/nonpassword/learnonline/resources/blackdime n/history/india/india.html "Possibly the most substantial percentage of Asia's Africans can be identified among India's 160 million "Untouchables" or "Dalits". India's Untouchables number more than the combined population of England, France, Belgium and Spain. Frequently they are called "outcasts". The official name given to them in India's Constitution (1947) is "Scheduled - Castes". Indian nationalist leader, devout Hindu and social reformer Mohandas K. Ghandi, called them "Harijans", meaning "children of God". "Dalit", meaning "crushed and broken" is a name that has come into prominence only within the last three decades. "Dalit" reflects a radically different response to oppression." -- Grant Barrett gbarrett at worldnewyork.org http://www.worldnewyork.org/ New York Loves You Back From krahn at PUNCTUATION.ORG Fri Dec 7 02:39:12 2001 From: krahn at PUNCTUATION.ORG (Albert E. Krahn) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:39:12 -0600 Subject: Many Mickey Mice Message-ID: I can attest to all the Mice offered so far, having played in a Mickey Mouse band at times, waded through Mickey Mouse bureaucracy, and taken Mickey Mouse courses in college. A core idea of unsquare, worthless, stupid, and needlessly dragged out or bothersome seems to be there in all of them. akra From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Fri Dec 7 03:46:40 2001 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:46:40 -0500 Subject: Basically Message-ID: There are words that come onto my radar screen because of a dramatic increase in their use. And there are words which catch my interest and I become more aware of them. But it seems to me that there has been a recent explosion in the use of the word "basically." Watch the call-ins on C-SPAN Journal (which, if othing else, is an interesting cohort). I find it very irritating and yet seductive. Unlike other fill words (I'm sure, like, you professionals have, you know, a term for that), this one seems to have some substance, a substance that might be of interest to linguists. I am seeing it used in a context that indicates a recognition, however subliminal, that language cannot relate the entirety of any situation. So basically its use acknowledges the limits of language in people who probably are not basically aware of language. Has anyone else noticed this? D From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Thu Dec 6 22:40:03 2001 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:40:03 -0000 Subject: The Old English Preterite Plural Lives! Message-ID: For my first posting as a "free woman"--unfettered by constraints of working for RH--I'd like to add, for anyone interested in regional distribution, that a quick check of my age cohorts (40-ish) and unspeakably large extended family in the northwest reveals that they do NOT say 'snook'. Hope to be a more productive member of the list from now on. Wendalyn Nichols ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesse Sheidlower" To: Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 5:00 PM Subject: Re: The Old English Preterite Plural Lives! > > This discussion is the first I've heard of "snook" = "snuck". > > For me it's always been I, you, he/she/it, we, you (pl.), and they "snuck" > > (rhymes with "duck")--except for the rare occassions when I remember > > "sneaked". > > OED seems to have examples of _snook_ going back to the early 1960s, > and that's without even checking the electronic databases. > > Best, > > Jesse Sheidlower > OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 7 09:32:50 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 04:32:50 EST Subject: Almendrado (Tucson, 1920s) Message-ID: "Almendrado" is not in the "world's greatest culinary encyclopedia. It's also not in OED, DARE, M-W, and Mariani's Encyclopedia of American Food & Drink. One of the books I went through today was TUCSON'S MEXICAN RESTAURANTS: REPASTS, RECIPES, AND REMEMBRANCES, Tasted and Written by Suzanne Myal (University of Arizona Press, Tucson; 1997 copyright with Fiesta Publishing, 1999 paperback). From the Introduction: Pg. 13: However, things immediately start to get complicated in southern Arizona, because what are locally called "flat enchiladas" or "Sonoran-style enchiladas" aren't really like other enchiladas--they are thick cakes of corn masa, red chile, and often cheese that are fried and then served in a red sauce! Pg. 14: If you deep-fry a burro, it becomes a _chimichanga_--a truly local dish from southern Arizona or northern Sonora. There are many legends concerning the origin of the chimichanga, and its apparently meaningless name (some folks insist it's a _chivi_changa). I don't know which, if any, might be the truth.... I'd honestly rather eat the things than argue about their origin. Pg. 17: And for dessert, what better than _almendrado_, a tricolored almond confection invented right here in Tucson in the 1920s. Pg. 150: _Yndia Smalley Moore_ as told by Dianne M. Bret Hart, daughter In the early 1920s, "dropout" was a two-word verb, and _almendrado_ had not emerged from a Tucson kitchen to be called a traditional Mexican dessert. But a University of Arizona coed changed all of that. The coed was my mother, Yndia Smalley. One night, not long after enrolling in the university, Yndia had a date with her good friend Malcolm Cummings. They left the house intending to go to a movie but returned hours later with an idea they had formulated during a long evening of talk. They would borrow some money and open a charming little reservations-only, Mexican-themed "tea room." So with a bank loan, plus help from their families, Malcolm and Yndia moved ahead with their plans. Yndia's mother, Lydia, indulging a well-developed sense of romance and adventure, offered to lend her cook, Rosa, to the tea room along with her own adaption of a popular dessert that accompanied the family's Mexican dinners every Wednesday evening. Lydia replaced snow pudding's lemon flavoring with almond extract, tinted the layers of frothy beaten egg white a pale pink and green vaguely suggestive (Pg. 151--ed.) of the Mexican flag, and laced the custard sauce with "bourbon, enough to mask the egginess." She called the dessert _almendrado_. (...)(Pg. 152--ed.) Rosa's years in the family kitchen, followed by two seasons at La Cazuela, gave her the confidence and skill to seek employment at the popular El Charro, then on West Broadway, where she introduced the enterprising owner, Monica Flin, to La Cazuela's popular dessert. Added to El Charro's menu, and then to others both near and far, almendrado began, and continues today, its incredible and mythic journey into culinary history. Trendy menus focus upon _almendrado_ as "not to be missed," cookbooks toot it as "typically Mexican," newspaper food pages label it "traditional," and nouvelle Southwest restaurants serve it after salmon enchiladas. I have eaten garishly hued imitations of the real almendrado in Minneapolis and San Diego and elsewhere. Their bourbonless sauces would cause my grandmother grief. But closest to home, for me at least, is the Mexican (Pg. 153--ed.) restaurant in the Student Union of the University of Arizona. Each Cinco de Mayo lunchtime I go there to be entertained by mariachi music and to have for dessert their version of _almendrado_. And, for my grandmother, to mourn the custard sauce. _SECRETA DE FAMILIA_ _Almendrado_ Yndia Smalley Moore _Pudding_ 1 package Knox gelatin 1/4 cup water 6 egg whites pinch of salt 3/4 cup sugar 1 teaspoon almond extract Dissolve gelatin in water. Heat until dissolved. Meanwhile, beat egg white until stiff. Add cooled gelatin slowly, beating continually. Add salt and sugar slowly. When well mixed, add almond extract. If desired, tint 1/3 pale pink, and 1/3 pale green, and layer with remaining untinted 1/3 white in ring mold, a la Mexican flag. Chill for 6 hours, unmold, and serve individual portions topped with custard sauce (see following recipe). _Custard Sauce_ 6 egg yolks pinch of salt 1/4 cup sugar 1 pint half-and-half bourbon blanched and toasted slivered almonds Beat egg yolks slightly. Add salt, sugar, and half-and-half. Cook in a double boiler until custard coats spoon, stirring almost constantly. When cool, add enough bourbon to overshadow eggy taste. Add almonds to sauce just before serving, or sprinkle on top. Serves 4 to 6. As I said before, this is not a great book, but FWIW, from EL CHARRO CAFE: THE TASTES AND TRADITIONS OF TUCSON (Fisher Books, Tucson, 1998), by Carlotta Flores, pg. 114: _Almendrado_ Almond Meringue Pudding Makes 12 servings Almendrado is a light confection, actually an unbaked, soft meringue, molded in layers colored to resemble the Mexican flag--green, white and red (which actually is pink, in egg white). It is served with a custard sauce. It is said that if the Almendrado fails, the blame lies with the cook being angry that day. Almendrado can be made nicely with egg substitute for the custard sauce. However, you will still need to use real egg whites for the meringue portion. (Long recipe follows--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 7 10:23:15 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 05:23:15 EST Subject: Wandering Jews (1889); Brown-Eyed Susans, Rocky Roads (1925) Message-ID: WANDERING JEWS From THE GOOD CHEER COOK BOOK, BY THE LADIES AID SOCIETY OF THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH, CHIPPEWA FALLS, WISCONSIN (Herald Print, 1889), pg. 85: "WANDERING JEWS." One and one-half cupfuls of sugar, one cupful of butter, two cupfuls of fruit, one-half teaspoonful of soda, one teaspoonful of cloves, one teaspoonful of cinnamon, one-half of a nutmeg, three eggs. Bakes as cookies. MRS. HERBERT BARKER. From OUR ALMA MATER COOK BOOK, Dow Academy Alumni, Franconia, N. H. (1903), pg. 67: WANDERING JEWS. MRS. S. C. BROOKS One cup raisins, one cup butter, two cups sugar, three eggs, two teaspoons baking powder, four cups flour or more. Roll out and cut like cookies. -------------------------------------------------------- BROWN-EYED SUSANS; ROCKY ROADS CORONA CLUB COOK BOOK Corona Club, San Francisco 1925 (There is also a 1911 edition, but I didn't have time to request it in the Rare Book Room--ed.) Pg. 165: _Batchelors (sic) Buttons_. Pg. 165: _Brown Eyed Susans_--Two cups molasses, 1 cup lard, 1 cup sugar, 2-3 cup sour milk, 1 tablespoon ginger, 3 teaspoons soda stirred in flour and 1 in milk, 2 eggs; enough flour to roll and cut into cookies. Put raisin in center of each.--Mrs. E. R. S. Pg. 214: _Elmira Cream Nut Fudge_. Pg. 215: _Franconia Fudge_. Pg. 217: _Rocky Roads_--One pound of milk chocolate cut in small pieces and put in a double boiler to melt, one cup of chopped walnuts, 15 marhsmallows broken in small pieces. When the chocolate is melted take a fork and beat it smooth. Then stir in 2 tablespoons of corn oil or butter. Grease a deep tin and put in it a thin layer of the melted chocolate--then a layer of nuts and marhsmallows mixed together, then another layer of chocolate, then the mixed nuts and marshmallows, the top layer being of chocolate. Put the mixture aside to coolm then break into pieces.--C. L. B. From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Fri Dec 7 15:24:27 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:24:27 -0500 Subject: 911 Message-ID: from the Atlanta Journal last Sunday: Some members of what's increasingly being called Generation 911 say that while Harrison's death saddens them, it doesn't increase their interest in his music. don't know if it's pronounced nine-one-one or nine-eleven. Ellen Ellen Johnson Assistant Professor of Linguistics Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing Berry College, Box 350 Mt. Berry, GA 30149 706-368-5638 http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ ejohnson at berry.edu From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Fri Dec 7 15:26:40 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:26:40 -0500 Subject: n-word Message-ID: I forwarded this before, but I don't think my email went out the day the worm shut us down. addresses the question of whether the n-word is becoming less taboo or not. Ellen This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by fsgiles at arches.uga.edu. A Black Author Hurls That Word as a Challenge December 1, 2001 By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK At halftime of a 1993 basketball game against Miami University of Ohio, Keith Dambrot, varsity men's basketball coach at Central Michigan University, called his team together to talk about the word "nigger." Mr. Dambrot, who is white, had overheard his African- American players call each other "nigger" to denote toughness and tenacity on the court. He asked the players permission to use the word in the same sense, and after they assented he adopted "nigger," too. A few weeks later, after administrative censure, sensitivity training and two campus protests, Mr. Dambrot lost his job and promptly filed suit. His case is one of dozens analyzed in "Nigger," a new book by Randall Kennedy, an African-American scholar at the Harvard Law School. Mr. Kennedy recounts many unpleasant episodes, like the embarrassing use of the term by Senator Robert C. Byrd of West Virginia in a public appearance last march. But Mr. Kennedy also considers the newer, more complicated use of "nigger" as a term of affection by young African-Americans and their well-meaning white friends. All in all, he argues, the new uses are gradually helping to exorcise the word's power as America's "paradigmatic ethnic slur." Even before the book's appearance in stores next month, its uncomfortable title has elicited considerable hand-wringing among the mostly white staff of its publisher, Pantheon Books, where some executives have even refused to say its name. It has also become the source of a certain mischievous amusement on the part of its African-American editor. And as advanced word spreads among other African-American scholars, the title has provoked denunciations from some who vehemently disagree with Mr. Kennedy's thesis even before they have read the book. "When I show up on CNN, I get e-mails from racists calling me a nigger bitch, O.K.?" said Julianne Malveaux, an African-American economist and newspaper columnist, "so I don't think its use is taking the sting out of it. I think it's escalating at this point. You are just giving a whole bunch of racists who love to use the word permission to use it even more, like, `I am not really using it, I am just talking about a book!' " Patricia Williams, an African- American professor at Columbia Law School, objected to the title: "That word is a bit like fire - you can warm your hands with the kind of upside-down camaraderie that it gives, or you can burn a cross with it. But in any case it depends on the context and the users' intention, and seeing it floating abstractly on a book shelf in a world that is still as polarized as ours makes me cringe." Houston A. Baker Jr., an African- American professor of English at Duke University, agreed about the title: "I see no reason whatsoever to do this, except to make money. It is a crude marketing technique unworthy of someone with the kind of penetrating intelligence that Professor Kennedy has." For his part, Mr. Kennedy said he felt no qualms about the sensational title, adding, "I write a book to be read." He said he had come up with the idea for the book, which grew out of a series of lectures, after idly typing the word "nigger" into a database of court cases. He found over 4,000 entries. Even before prosecutors in the O. J. Simpson case argued that hearing a witness's use of the word might unduly bias a jury, courts have often grappled with the caustic power of the word's history. Some courts have ruled that hearing the word "nigger" constitutes a provocation to violence similar to receiving a physical blow. Others have determined that speaking the word as an insult can disqualify a prosecutor or judge from his job. Lawyers have argued that a juror's utterance of the word in earshot of other jurors can invalidate their deliberations. Mr. Kennedy writes approvingly of entertainers' penchant for "nigger." The comedian Lenny Bruce expounded the idea that repeating the word "nigger" could defang its derogatory impact, capitalizing on the word's shock-value in the process. But Mr. Kennedy notes that African-American rappers and comedians do not concern themselves much with whether they are encouraging white racists or disarming them. "They say, `We don't feel constrained that we have to burnish the image of the Negro - we think this is fun and we are going to do it,' " Mr. Kennedy said. "Frankly, I felt inspired by that." Erroll McDonald, Mr. Kennedy's editor at Pantheon and one of the few senior African-American editors in book publishing, was delighted with the manuscript. "I appreciated its importance instantly," he said, "It is just such a curious word that provokes atavistic passions in people, and I thought it was time for a proper reckoning with it." He continued: "I for one am appalled by that euphemism `the N word.' It seems an elision of something that would be better off talked about. There are some people out there talking about the `N- word' that do regard a certain section of the population as niggers." Mr. McDonald enjoyed the reactions of colleagues, almost all of them white. He carried a piece of paper around the office with the word "nigger" written on it, asking people to pronounce it. Presenting the idea at a planning session in January, he asked about 45 editors and other executives to say it unison. In both cases, some refused. "I think it is pretty fun," Mr. McDonald said, imagining customers asking a bookstore clerk, "Can I have one `Nigger' please? Where are your `Niggers'?" He added, "I am not afraid of the word `nigger.' " Some of the sales and marketing executives, however, were nervous, partly about how to publicize a book some would not name aloud and partly about the subtitle. Mr. McDonald picked the subtitle, "A Problem in American Culture," which appeared in the Pantheon catalog sent to reviewers and stores. But at a sales conference in August, some executives worried that consumers might think "nigger" referred to African-Americans and that by implication African-Americans were the "problem," said Joy Dallanegra- Sanger, who is white and the marketing director of the division of Random House that includes Pantheon. Mr. McDonald disagreed but acquiesced. "I always thought of `nigger' as an imaginary construct, like `goblins' or `elves.' I never thought they actually existed, but apparently they do in the minds of some." The subtitle was changed to "The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word," clarifying that the subject was a word and not a person. In the past, librarians and bookstore owners have sometimes removed books from their shelves for containing the word "nigger" in the title, including "The Nigger of the Narcissus," by Joseph Conrad. But several bookstores, including some catering mainly to African-Americans, said that they planned to stock Mr. Kennedy's book. Several noted the comedian Dick Gregory's 1964 autobiography, "Nigger." He wrote at the time that he hoped the word would become obsolete, but he also joked that it was advertising for the book. John McWhorter, an African- American linguist and the author of the forthcoming book "The Power of Babel" (Henry Holt), read an early copy. He said he shared Mr. Kennedy's hopeful fascination with the changing uses of the word among young African-Americans and even their white friends, suggesting that the book might further dilute the opprobrium the word carries. "Pretty soon we are going to have a book called `Nigger' that is going to be sitting in front of every bookstore in the United States, and that will be one more step toward taking the power of the word away." The most immediate effect, however, is likely to be an escalation of the debate over the politics of its use. Richard Delgado, a Mexican-American professor at the University of Colorado Law School, who has argued for restrictions on hate-speech, said that he, too, feared that Mr. Kennedy's defense of the term's novel uses would encourage racists. But Mr. Delgado also said that Mr. Kennedy risked slighting other ethnic groups by underestimating the power of other slurs. Calling "nigger" the "paradigmatic" ethnic slur was "parochial," Mr. Delgado said. For his part, Mr. Dambrot, the basketball coach who lost his job for using the word, said he favored open discussion, even of his own mistake. He lost his suit and worked as a stockbroker for five years before he found another job coaching basketball, for a high school in Akron, Ohio. This year he finally returned to coaching a college team, at the University of Akron. "I try to use the whole situation as an educational tool for the kids," he said. "I explain that you have to understand how different people understand your words. Be careful what you say. Every decision you make can effect the rest of your life, and my life can be case study for that." From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 7 15:27:11 2001 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 07:27:11 -0800 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't understand "Mickey Mouse" the same as you. To me it simply means without substance, something not to be taken seriously, something trivial. The behavior of some people or organizations certainly falls in this category. Unfortunatly, Mickey Mouse behavior is often backed by, even the direct result of, public laws and corporate policies and such. --- Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM wrote: > Does anyone know how the phrase "Mickey Mouse" came > to describe "a person > or organization with a lot of poorly-justified, > nit-picking rules"? IMHO > the cartoon character isn't like that and never has > been. > > (This question arises from a discussion of > intellectual property rights on > another list I'm on. It is completely unrelated to > today's being the > hundredth anniversary of the birth of Walter Elias > Disney.) > > -- Mark ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Fri Dec 7 15:34:24 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:34:24 -0500 Subject: "southernisms" Message-ID: funny this should show up in the Atl Journal-Constitution's anonymously called in "Vent" section this week. did one of you submit it? "Favorite 'you-can't-get-more-Southern-than-this' Southernism: 'tumped over' --- 'I reached to get my beer and accidentally tumped it over.'" Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it on a sign at a Taco Bell: Jeet chet? Yont to? [yont rhymes with won't, of course] is anybody besides me a fan of the very definitely dated video from our own Preston and Shuy on varieties of am eng? well, a fan of some parts of it anyway, esp this section on style. every time I hear a comment on jeet chet I think of that guy (who also did a skit of middle-aged hopelessly uncool dude trying to be hip by using slang, who is he anyway? dInIs?) Ellen Johnson Assistant Professor of Linguistics Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing Berry College, Box 350 Mt. Berry, GA 30149 706-368-5638 http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ ejohnson at berry.edu From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Dec 7 15:37:33 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:37:33 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: <04075613166AF949913A8094A388272A11CDDC@FSMAIL.AD.Berry.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Ellen Johnson wrote: >Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I >suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it >on a sign at a Taco Bell: > >Jeet chet? >Yont to? I first heard used as an example of general informal speech (not regional in distribution) when I was a doctoral student Fall 1961. I have used it in class lectures for many years. I think I heard it first in a class in Old English. Bethany From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 7 15:52:04 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:52:04 -0500 Subject: "southernisms" In-Reply-To: <04075613166AF949913A8094A388272A11CDDC@FSMAIL.AD.Berry.edu> Message-ID: Alas, Ellen, he is a USIA actor, not a real person at all. dInIs >funny this should show up in the Atl Journal-Constitution's anonymously >called in "Vent" section this week. did one of you submit it? > >"Favorite 'you-can't-get-more-Southern-than-this' Southernism: 'tumped >over' --- 'I reached to get my beer and accidentally tumped it over.'" > >Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I >suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it >on a sign at a Taco Bell: > >Jeet chet? >Yont to? > >[yont rhymes with won't, of course] is anybody besides me a fan of the >very definitely dated video from our own Preston and Shuy on varieties >of am eng? well, a fan of some parts of it anyway, esp this section on >style. every time I hear a comment on jeet chet I think of that guy >(who also did a skit of middle-aged hopelessly uncool dude trying to be >hip by using slang, who is he anyway? dInIs?) > >Ellen Johnson >Assistant Professor of Linguistics >Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing >Berry College, Box 350 >Mt. Berry, GA 30149 >706-368-5638 >http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ >ejohnson at berry.edu -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From pkurtz at HEIDELBERG.EDU Fri Dec 7 16:01:25 2001 From: pkurtz at HEIDELBERG.EDU (Patti Kurtz) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:01:25 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: <20011207152711.41000.qmail@web9703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've heard "Mickey Mouse" used by woodworkers like my husband to describe a poorly done restoration job: "That desk was really mickey moused." or "It was a real Mickey Mouse job." The implication seems to be that the job was both done carelessly and incompetently, usually by someone who is seen as having no knowledge of how to do it right or no patience for doing it right. At 07:27 AM 12/7/01 -0800, you wrote: >I don't understand "Mickey Mouse" the same as you. To >me it simply means without substance, something not to >be taken seriously, something trivial. The behavior >of some people or organizations certainly falls in >this category. Unfortunatly, Mickey Mouse behavior is >often backed by, even the direct result of, public >laws and corporate policies and such. > > >--- Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM wrote: > > Does anyone know how the phrase "Mickey Mouse" came > > to describe "a person > > or organization with a lot of poorly-justified, > > nit-picking rules"? IMHO > > the cartoon character isn't like that and never has > > been. > > > > (This question arises from a discussion of > > intellectual property rights on > > another list I'm on. It is completely unrelated to > > today's being the > > hundredth anniversary of the birth of Walter Elias > > Disney.) > > > > -- Mark > >===== >James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything >SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued >jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send your FREE holiday greetings online! >http://greetings.yahoo.com Patti J. Kurtz Assistant Professor, English Advisor, Kilikilik "Anyone can do any amount of work provided it isn't the work he is supposed to be doing at the moment." -- Robert Benchley From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 7 16:10:25 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:10:25 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think (but I haven't seen it for a while, and, as Ellen Johnson suggests, it is a bit old-timey) that the entire conversation from the old Shuy-Preston USIA film was Jeet chet? Nachet. Jew? No. Skweet. Slate. dInIs (who could also tell you who the creole speaker is when Roger plays the tape recorder, but won't) >On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Ellen Johnson wrote: > >>Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I >>suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it >>on a sign at a Taco Bell: >> >>Jeet chet? >>Yont to? > >I first heard used as an example of general informal >speech (not regional in distribution) when I was a doctoral student Fall >1961. I have used it in class lectures for many years. I think I heard it >first in a class in Old English. > >Bethany -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Dec 7 16:18:46 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:18:46 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >I think (but I haven't seen it for a while, and, as Ellen Johnson >suggests, it is a bit old-timey) that the entire conversation from >the old Shuy-Preston USIA film was What year was that? Bethany From Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM Fri Dec 7 16:21:30 2001 From: Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:21:30 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: >From another member of the list where the question arose. -- Mark M. >>>> An observation and a hypothesis: US soldiers often refers to both air-pocketed extreme cold weather boots, and chemical protective boots, as "Mickey Mouse boots". This, in part, because the gear is oversized and distorts the natural proportions of the foot: a big bulb of a boot on a pipestem leg, like a cartoon character. In another part, such boots make movement difficult and grace unlikely. One so encumbered in boots is as liable to pratfalls as a cartoon character. To an extent, the proportions and resulting clumsiness of gear for the hands is similar, though I have only once heard usage of "Mickey Mouse mittens". Ditto the head, but _never_ a "Mickey Mouse hood". But I _have_ heard, and often, "the full Mickey Mouse" among green suiters referring to donning complete MOPP gear. It should be noted that trying to do very simple things (like see or move) while wearing the full Mickey Mouse is _so_ difficult, and the hazards the full Mickey Mouse defends you from (cold and _maybe_ gas) are _so) intangible (compared to the visceral dangers of falling from a high place (or getting SHOT!) ) that the wearer (this one, anyway) is (was) CONSTANTLY fighting the temptation to peel the stuff off. One is stuck with the dichotomy -- intellectually acceptance /emotional rejection and coping with the dichotomy often involves trivializing it. It's "just" Mickey Mouse. It's not important enough to hate. It's just Mickey Mouse. It's not a source of fear. It's Mickey Mouse. It seems to me to be a reasonable hypothesis that the sense of misproportion, awkwardness, cognitive dissonance and comic possibility of "the full Mickey Mouse" might be lifted from a military cold weather or chemical hazard environment and applied to military or even civil bureaucracy. "They spend the day mowing the grass, polishing the brass, and covering their ass -- all that Mickey Mouse..." But I won't _insist_ on that interpretation... From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Fri Dec 7 16:36:18 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:36:18 -0500 Subject: jeet chet Message-ID: I dunno, but Dennis was wearing a tie that was about 5 inches wide! Ellen -----Original Message----- From: Bethany K. Dumas [mailto:dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 11:19 AM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: jeet chet On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >I think (but I haven't seen it for a while, and, as Ellen Johnson >suggests, it is a bit old-timey) that the entire conversation from >the old Shuy-Preston USIA film was What year was that? Bethany From stevekl at PANIX.COM Fri Dec 7 16:42:37 2001 From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:42:37 -0500 Subject: gap in the OED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Dec 2001, Laurence Horn wrote: > appear in print until 1975. The AHD4 entry is pretty solid-- > > Linguistics [Why not "Philosophy" too?] > 1. The aspect of meaning that a speaker conveys, implies, or suggests > without directly > expressing. Although the utterance "Can you pass the salt?" is > literally a request for > information about one's ability to pass salt, the understood > implicature is a request for > salt. > 2. The process by which such a meaning is conveyed, implied, or > suggested. In saying "Some dogs are mammals," the speaker conveys by > implicature that not all dogs are mammals. > > --but curiously omits any attribution to Grice, the originator of the > term. (As it happens, the example in #2 comes from my own work--I > seem to recall that the AHD entry is due to our own Steve Kleinedler, > and there was no such entry in AHD3--but I was just using it to > illustrate Grice's concept.) To give credit where credit is due, Larry helped me considerably in hammering out the phrasing of this for a general audience, reviewing my work and making several excellent suggestions. -- Steve From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 7 17:23:02 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 12:23:02 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >77, 78? dInIs >On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >>I think (but I haven't seen it for a while, and, as Ellen Johnson >>suggests, it is a bit old-timey) that the entire conversation from >>the old Shuy-Preston USIA film was > >What year was that? > >Bethany -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Dec 7 17:24:22 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 12:24:22 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>77, 78? So where did my Old English prof. get it? In 1961? (He had studied at Penn.) Bethany From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Fri Dec 7 17:42:26 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 12:42:26 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: re: Mickey Mouse boots, also known as Bunny Boots in the Tenth Mountain Division (in WWII), we quickly discarded them. As Mark M. notes, they are oversized and clumsy. They also charred easily when the GI is crouched over a fire in the snow. Bunny Boots were not meant for walking, just camp use). They were a nuisance to carry; wouldn't fold or scrunch into a wad, like moccasins. The army designers were apparently not aware that when a human pack mule is already burdened with sleeping gear, rifle, skis, tent, food, ammo, etc. etc. discarding is top priority. I suppose that the army's issuance of these items was looked upon as simply more foolish fooling around, akin to SNAFU, etc. Martin Murie ~~~~~~~~~~~ Mark Mandel wrote: >>>From another member of the list where the question arose. > >-- Mark M. > >>>>> >An observation and a hypothesis: > >US soldiers often refers to both air-pocketed >extreme cold weather boots, and chemical protective >boots, as "Mickey Mouse boots". This, in part, >because the gear is oversized and distorts the >natural proportions of the foot: a big bulb of >a boot on a pipestem leg, like a cartoon character. >In another part, such boots make movement difficult and >grace unlikely. One so encumbered in boots is as >liable to pratfalls as a cartoon character. > >To an extent, the proportions and resulting >clumsiness of gear for the hands is similar, >though I have only once heard usage of "Mickey Mouse >mittens". Ditto the head, but _never_ a "Mickey Mouse >hood". > >But I _have_ heard, and often, "the full >Mickey Mouse" among green suiters referring >to donning complete MOPP gear. > >It should be noted that trying to do very simple >things (like see or move) while wearing the full >Mickey Mouse is _so_ difficult, and the hazards >the full Mickey Mouse defends you from (cold and >_maybe_ gas) are _so) intangible (compared to the >visceral dangers of falling from a high place >(or getting SHOT!) ) that the wearer (this one, >anyway) is (was) CONSTANTLY fighting the temptation >to peel the stuff off. One is stuck with the >dichotomy -- intellectually acceptance /emotional >rejection and coping with the dichotomy often involves >trivializing it. It's "just" Mickey Mouse. It's >not important enough to hate. It's just Mickey >Mouse. It's not a source of fear. It's Mickey Mouse. > >It seems to me to be a reasonable hypothesis that >the sense of misproportion, awkwardness, cognitive >dissonance and comic possibility of "the full >Mickey Mouse" might be lifted from a military >cold weather or chemical hazard environment and >applied to military or even civil bureaucracy. >"They spend the day mowing the grass, polishing >the brass, and covering their ass -- all that Mickey >Mouse..." > >But I won't _insist_ on that interpretation... A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 7 18:10:34 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:10:34 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Roger and I (where have I heard something like that before?) surely didn't make it up. We both had it fromn "linguistic folk memory." dInIs >On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >>>77, 78? > >So where did my Old English prof. get it? In 1961? (He had studied at >Penn.) > >Bethany -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 7 18:12:51 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:12:51 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: In the late 50's these items, purchased from Army stores, were dyed bright colors and had a brief popularity as "fruit boots" among tennage boys. dInIs >re: Mickey Mouse boots, also known as Bunny Boots in the Tenth Mountain >Division (in WWII), we quickly discarded them. As Mark M. notes, they are >oversized and clumsy. They also charred easily when the GI is crouched over >a fire in the snow. Bunny Boots were not meant for walking, just camp use). >They were a nuisance to carry; wouldn't fold or scrunch into a wad, like >moccasins. The army designers were apparently not aware that when a human >pack mule is already burdened with sleeping gear, rifle, skis, tent, food, >ammo, etc. etc. discarding is top priority. I suppose that the army's >issuance of these items was looked upon as simply more foolish fooling >around, akin to SNAFU, etc. >Martin Murie >~~~~~~~~~~~ >Mark Mandel wrote: >>>>From another member of the list where the question arose. >> >>-- Mark M. >> >>>>>> >>An observation and a hypothesis: >> >>US soldiers often refers to both air-pocketed >>extreme cold weather boots, and chemical protective >>boots, as "Mickey Mouse boots". This, in part, >>because the gear is oversized and distorts the >>natural proportions of the foot: a big bulb of >>a boot on a pipestem leg, like a cartoon character. >>In another part, such boots make movement difficult and >>grace unlikely. One so encumbered in boots is as >>liable to pratfalls as a cartoon character. >> >>To an extent, the proportions and resulting >>clumsiness of gear for the hands is similar, >>though I have only once heard usage of "Mickey Mouse >>mittens". Ditto the head, but _never_ a "Mickey Mouse >>hood". >> >>But I _have_ heard, and often, "the full >>Mickey Mouse" among green suiters referring >>to donning complete MOPP gear. >> >>It should be noted that trying to do very simple >>things (like see or move) while wearing the full >>Mickey Mouse is _so_ difficult, and the hazards >>the full Mickey Mouse defends you from (cold and >>_maybe_ gas) are _so) intangible (compared to the >>visceral dangers of falling from a high place >>(or getting SHOT!) ) that the wearer (this one, >>anyway) is (was) CONSTANTLY fighting the temptation >>to peel the stuff off. One is stuck with the >>dichotomy -- intellectually acceptance /emotional >>rejection and coping with the dichotomy often involves >>trivializing it. It's "just" Mickey Mouse. It's >>not important enough to hate. It's just Mickey >>Mouse. It's not a source of fear. It's Mickey Mouse. >> >>It seems to me to be a reasonable hypothesis that >>the sense of misproportion, awkwardness, cognitive >>dissonance and comic possibility of "the full >>Mickey Mouse" might be lifted from a military >>cold weather or chemical hazard environment and >>applied to military or even civil bureaucracy. >>"They spend the day mowing the grass, polishing >>the brass, and covering their ass -- all that Mickey >>Mouse..." >> >>But I won't _insist_ on that interpretation... > > >A&M Murie >N. Bangor NY >sagehen at westelcom.com -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 7 18:06:25 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:06:25 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My phonology colleague has used it for years, is not a sociolinguist, and has never heard of the film you're talking about (nor have I seen it). Since it reflects speech pretty accurately, I suspect it's been around forever, in one spelling variant or another. At 12:24 PM 12/7/01 -0500, you wrote: >On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > > >>77, 78? > >So where did my Old English prof. get it? In 1961? (He had studied at >Penn.) > >Bethany _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 7 18:18:27 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:18:27 -0500 Subject: The Old English Preterite Plural Lives! In-Reply-To: <009f01c17ea6$f22b9d20$8e3c4142@nyc.rr.com> Message-ID: I just remembered that my mother (b. 1906) used "snook" [snUk] all the time, in Minnesota; "snook around" was more common for her than "snook out." But my siblings and I only used "snuck." At 10:40 PM 12/6/01 +0000, you wrote: >For my first posting as a "free woman"--unfettered by constraints of working >for RH--I'd like to add, for anyone interested in regional distribution, >that a quick check of my age cohorts (40-ish) and unspeakably large extended >family in the northwest reveals that they do NOT say 'snook'. > >Hope to be a more productive member of the list from now on. > >Wendalyn Nichols >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jesse Sheidlower" >To: >Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 5:00 PM >Subject: Re: The Old English Preterite Plural Lives! > > > > > This discussion is the first I've heard of "snook" = "snuck". > > > For me it's always been I, you, he/she/it, we, you (pl.), and they >"snuck" > > > (rhymes with "duck")--except for the rare occassions when I remember > > > "sneaked". > > > > OED seems to have examples of _snook_ going back to the early 1960s, > > and that's without even checking the electronic databases. > > > > Best, > > > > Jesse Sheidlower > > OED _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Fri Dec 7 18:33:39 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:33:39 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20011207130402.03c42220@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >My phonology colleague has used it for years, is not a sociolinguist, and >has never heard of the film you're talking about (nor have I seen >it). Since it reflects speech pretty accurately, I suspect it's been >around forever, in one spelling variant or another. Sure. However, I doubt that my OE prof decided on his own to use it in a class lecture. I am wondering who called it to his attention. Bethany From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 7 06:32:02 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:32:02 +0800 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20011207130402.03c42220@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: At 1:06 PM -0500 12/7/01, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >My phonology colleague has used it for years, is not a sociolinguist, and >has never heard of the film you're talking about (nor have I seen >it). Since it reflects speech pretty accurately, I suspect it's been >around forever, in one spelling variant or another. > There was also Woody Allen's nice riff on it, possibly in Annie Hall (?). He notes how everyone always goes Jeet jet? No Jew? and deconstructs the response as an obvious instance of anti-Semitism. larry From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU Fri Dec 7 19:33:13 2001 From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:33:13 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" Message-ID: "Mickey Mouse" boots were still being issued, in 1966 & 1967, for use in the Korean DMZ, for the security guards at the Joint Security Area, primarily for those working in either the base camp or the Swiss-Swede Compound. The alternative footwear was standard military issue boots, with standard stockings. With standard footwear, it was difficult to keep feet warm for those who were on stationary posts. When it was cold, and you were wearing standard footwear, you stamped your feet a lot, hoping that no toes would break off. ":-) I think that they were issuing boots with felt inserts, late in 1967. George Cole Shippensburg University From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 7 06:36:11 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:36:11 +0800 Subject: Wandering Jews (1889) In-Reply-To: <17f.51db19.2941f294@aol.com> Message-ID: At 5:23 AM -0500 12/7/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >WANDERING JEWS > > From THE GOOD CHEER COOK BOOK, BY THE LADIES AID SOCIETY OF THE >EPISCOPAL CHURCH, CHIPPEWA FALLS, WISCONSIN (Herald Print, 1889), >pg. 85: > > "WANDERING JEWS." > One and one-half cupfuls of sugar, one cupful of butter, two >cupfuls of fruit, one-half teaspoonful of soda, one teaspoonful of >cloves, one teaspoonful of cinnamon, one-half of a nutmeg, three >eggs. Bakes as cookies. > MRS. HERBERT BARKER. > From OUR ALMA MATER COOK BOOK, Dow Academy Alumni, Franconia, N. >H. (1903), pg. 67: > > WANDERING JEWS. > MRS. S. C. BROOKS > One cup raisins, one cup butter, two cups sugar, three eggs, two >teaspoons baking powder, four cups flour or more. Roll out and cut >like cookies. > Sounds a lot like the recipes for Wandering Episcopalians we used to use at the Synagogue... L From lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG Fri Dec 7 19:41:38 2001 From: lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG (Linda Sparlin) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:41:38 -0600 Subject: "southernisms" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Is not "tump" simply a blend of "turn" and "dump"? As in "...turned it over" or "...dumped it over" ? And I have to disagree slightly with the pronunciation of "Jeet chet?" and "Yont to?" "Yont" rhymes with "want," not "won't." It's simply lazy enunciation, rushed/compressed into fewer distinct sounds, meaning "Did you eat yet?" and "Do you want to?" in all of MO, OK, KS, IL, as far east as Cleveland (my only experience.) Haven't read the whole string - so my apologies if this has already been suggested. Linda _____________________ ...funny this should show up in the Atl Journal-Constitution's anonymously called in "Vent" section this week. did one of you submit it? "Favorite 'you-can't-get-more-Southern-than-this' Southernism: 'tumped over' --- 'I reached to get my beer and accidentally tumped it over.'" Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it on a sign at a Taco Bell: Jeet chet? Yont to? [yont rhymes with won't, of course] is anybody besides me a fan of the very definitely dated video from our own Preston and Shuy on varieties of am eng? well, a fan of some parts of it anyway, esp this section on style. every time I hear a comment on jeet chet I think of that guy (who also did a skit of middle-aged hopelessly uncool dude trying to be hip by using slang, who is he anyway? dInIs?) Ellen Johnson Assistant Professor of Linguistics Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing Berry College, Box 350 Mt. Berry, GA 30149 706-368-5638 http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ ejohnson at berry.edu From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Dec 7 20:42:59 2001 From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:42:59 -0600 Subject: "southernisms" Message-ID: Indeed, it is lazy in the same way that some lazy people compress bacon, lettuce, and tomato between slices of bread rather than enjoying them as distinct tastes. I think they do that in Missouri as well (well probably just southern Missouri). Linda Sparlin wrote: > Is not "tump" simply a blend of "turn" and "dump"? As in "...turned it > over" or "...dumped it over" ? > > And I have to disagree slightly with the pronunciation of "Jeet chet?" and > "Yont to?" "Yont" rhymes with "want," not "won't." It's simply lazy > enunciation, rushed/compressed into fewer distinct sounds, meaning "Did you > eat yet?" and "Do you want to?" in all of MO, OK, KS, IL, as far east as > Cleveland (my only experience.) > > Haven't read the whole string - so my apologies if this has already been > suggested. > > Linda Linda Sparlin wrote: > Is not "tump" simply a blend of "turn" and "dump"? As in "...turned it > over" or "...dumped it over" ? > > And I have to disagree slightly with the pronunciation of "Jeet chet?" and > "Yont to?" "Yont" rhymes with "want," not "won't." It's simply lazy > enunciation, rushed/compressed into fewer distinct sounds, meaning "Did you > eat yet?" and "Do you want to?" in all of MO, OK, KS, IL, as far east as > Cleveland (my only experience.) > > Haven't read the whole string - so my apologies if this has already been > suggested. > > Linda > _____________________ > > ...funny this should show up in the Atl Journal-Constitution's anonymously > called in "Vent" section this week. did one of you submit it? > > "Favorite 'you-can't-get-more-Southern-than-this' Southernism: 'tumped > over' --- 'I reached to get my beer and accidentally tumped it over.'" > > Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I > suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it > on a sign at a Taco Bell: > > Jeet chet? > Yont to? > > [yont rhymes with won't, of course] is anybody besides me a fan of the > very definitely dated video from our own Preston and Shuy on varieties > of am eng? well, a fan of some parts of it anyway, esp this section on > style. every time I hear a comment on jeet chet I think of that guy > (who also did a skit of middle-aged hopelessly uncool dude trying to be > hip by using slang, who is he anyway? dInIs?) > > Ellen Johnson > Assistant Professor of Linguistics > Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing > Berry College, Box 350 > Mt. Berry, GA 30149 > 706-368-5638 > http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ > ejohnson at berry.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 7 21:39:51 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:39:51 -0500 Subject: jeet chet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, When I typed that I had the anti-Semitic interpretation (to me obvious only in the graphic representation) in the back of my head but couldn't remember where from. Thanks, dInIs >At 1:06 PM -0500 12/7/01, Beverly Flanigan wrote: >>My phonology colleague has used it for years, is not a sociolinguist, and >>has never heard of the film you're talking about (nor have I seen >>it). Since it reflects speech pretty accurately, I suspect it's been >>around forever, in one spelling variant or another. >> > >There was also Woody Allen's nice riff on it, possibly in Annie Hall >(?). He notes how everyone always goes > >Jeet jet? >No Jew? > >and deconstructs the response as an obvious instance of anti-Semitism. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Fri Dec 7 21:41:52 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:41:52 -0500 Subject: Wandering Jews (1889) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Of course us Hungarians ate only wandering infidels. But I think the recipe was a little different. I haven't whiiped up a batch for quite some time. Maybr this holiday season ... dInIs >At 5:23 AM -0500 12/7/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >>WANDERING JEWS >> >> From THE GOOD CHEER COOK BOOK, BY THE LADIES AID SOCIETY OF THE >>EPISCOPAL CHURCH, CHIPPEWA FALLS, WISCONSIN (Herald Print, 1889), >>pg. 85: >> >> "WANDERING JEWS." >> One and one-half cupfuls of sugar, one cupful of butter, two >>cupfuls of fruit, one-half teaspoonful of soda, one teaspoonful of >>cloves, one teaspoonful of cinnamon, one-half of a nutmeg, three >>eggs. Bakes as cookies. >> MRS. HERBERT BARKER. >> From OUR ALMA MATER COOK BOOK, Dow Academy Alumni, Franconia, N. >>H. (1903), pg. 67: >> >> WANDERING JEWS. >> MRS. S. C. BROOKS >> One cup raisins, one cup butter, two cups sugar, three eggs, two >>teaspoons baking powder, four cups flour or more. Roll out and cut >>like cookies. >> >Sounds a lot like the recipes for Wandering Episcopalians we used to >use at the Synagogue... > >L -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Fri Dec 7 23:01:56 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 17:01:56 -0600 Subject: Wandering Jews (1889) Message-ID: I know about the Eugene Sue novel; I twice tried to finish it, but only got about halfway before I gave up. So. What/where is a 'wandering Jew'. It is related to/derived from 'wandering Aramaean'? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Sat Dec 8 01:41:36 2001 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:41:36 -0500 Subject: n-word Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:26:40 -0500 Ellen Johnson Patricia Williams, an African- American professor at > Columbia Law School, objected to the title: "That word is a > bit like fire - you can warm your hands with the kind of > upside-down camaraderie that it gives, or you can burn a > cross with it. But in any case it depends on the context > and the users' intention More often it depends on the hearer's perception of the users' [sic] intention(s). D From grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET Sat Dec 8 13:06:34 2001 From: grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 08:06:34 -0500 Subject: Wandering Jews (1889) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/07/01 18:01, "Mark Odegard" wrote: > I know about the Eugene Sue novel; I twice tried to finish it, but only got > about halfway before I gave up. > > So. What/where is a 'wandering Jew'. It is related to/derived from > 'wandering Aramaean'? A Wandering Jew FAQ, for what it's worth: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/1720/wj.htm From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 8 02:13:07 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:13:07 +0800 Subject: more on "linguistic profiling" as WOTY candidate Message-ID: If anyone wants to take the "test" at the abcnews.com web site I mentioned (during the Thursday broadcast), it's at this URL: When Voice Recognition Leads to Bias http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/WorldNewsTonight/linguistic_profiling011206.html A little additional investigation indicates that this might indeed be a candidate for the brand-spanking new category. No hits at all on "linguistic profiling" on Nexis, and most of the google ones point directly back to the ABC story or to other, irrelevant uses of the expression (rather than the one spun off from "racial profiling" at issue here). Linguist List had a brief discussion of the expression last September, which was inspired by a mention on NPR in either late August or early September (2001), so unless there's an earlier use around somewhere, it looks like a good candidate, and with the possibility of extension to contexts of "profiling" native Arabic speakers of English rather than for purposes of "traditional" racial discrimination, it may have a future. larry From lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU Sat Dec 8 15:35:58 2001 From: lanehart at ARCHES.UGA.EDU (Sonja L. Lanehart) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 10:35:58 -0500 Subject: more on "linguistic profiling" as WOTY candidate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't think it can be nominated for brand-spanking new since I nominated it last year during the meeting. I was told to wait till the 2002 meeting to nominate it for a more appropriate category than the one I was nominating it for by the time I remembered to nominate it. I guess I was ahead of my time. --Sonja >If anyone wants to take the "test" at the abcnews.com web site I >mentioned (during the Thursday broadcast), it's at this URL: > >When Voice Recognition Leads to Bias >http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/WorldNewsTonight/linguistic_p >rofiling011206.html > >A little additional investigation indicates that this might indeed be >a candidate for the brand-spanking new category. No hits at all on >"linguistic profiling" on Nexis, and most of the google ones point >directly back to the ABC story or to other, irrelevant uses of the >expression (rather than the one spun off from "racial profiling" at >issue here). Linguist List had a brief discussion of the expression >last September, which was inspired by a mention on NPR in either late >August or early September (2001), so unless there's an earlier use >around somewhere, it looks like a good candidate, and with the >possibility of extension to contexts of "profiling" native Arabic >speakers of English rather than for purposes of "traditional" racial >discrimination, it may have a future. > >larry ************************************************************** Sonja L. Lanehart Department of English 706-542-2260 (office) University of Georgia 706-542-1261 (dept.) 300 Park Hall 706-542-2181 (fax) Athens, GA 30602-6205 http://www.arches.uga.edu/~lanehart ************************************************************** From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 8 07:13:55 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:13:55 +0800 Subject: more on "linguistic profiling" as WOTY candidate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 10:35 AM -0500 12/8/01, Sonja L. Lanehart wrote: >I don't think it can be nominated for brand-spanking new since I >nominated it last year during the meeting. I was told to wait till >the 2002 meeting to nominate it for a more appropriate category than >the one I was nominating it for by the time I remembered to nominate >it. I guess I was ahead of my time. --Sonja > Sorry; I retract my supposition (that it wasn't around pre-2001). I'd evidently suppressed that memory. Well, it's still up for consideration in those other categories, anyway. LH From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Sat Dec 8 20:53:46 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 15:53:46 -0500 Subject: "southernisms" In-Reply-To: <3C1129D3.32E41003@missouri.edu> Message-ID: Expand that "laziness" to cover the whole country--and perhaps the entire English-speaking world. And we DO know what the words mean, Linda. BTW, "yont" would be closer to (some) Southern US English "do you want" than "yant" would, if I'm not mistaken. At 02:42 PM 12/7/01 -0600, you wrote: >Indeed, it is lazy in the same way that some lazy people compress bacon, >lettuce, and tomato between slices of bread rather than enjoying them as >distinct tastes. I think they do that in Missouri as well (well probably just >southern Missouri). > >Linda Sparlin wrote: > > > Is not "tump" simply a blend of "turn" and "dump"? As in "...turned it > > over" or "...dumped it over" ? > > > > And I have to disagree slightly with the pronunciation of "Jeet chet?" and > > "Yont to?" "Yont" rhymes with "want," not "won't." It's simply lazy > > enunciation, rushed/compressed into fewer distinct sounds, > meaning "Did you > > eat yet?" and "Do you want to?" in all of MO, OK, KS, IL, as far east as > > Cleveland (my only experience.) > > > > Haven't read the whole string - so my apologies if this has already been > > suggested. > > > > Linda > >Linda Sparlin wrote: > > > Is not "tump" simply a blend of "turn" and "dump"? As in "...turned it > > over" or "...dumped it over" ? > > > > And I have to disagree slightly with the pronunciation of "Jeet chet?" and > > "Yont to?" "Yont" rhymes with "want," not "won't." It's simply lazy > > enunciation, rushed/compressed into fewer distinct sounds, > meaning "Did you > > eat yet?" and "Do you want to?" in all of MO, OK, KS, IL, as far east as > > Cleveland (my only experience.) > > > > Haven't read the whole string - so my apologies if this has already been > > suggested. > > > > Linda > > _____________________ > > > > ...funny this should show up in the Atl Journal-Constitution's anonymously > > called in "Vent" section this week. did one of you submit it? > > > > "Favorite 'you-can't-get-more-Southern-than-this' Southernism: 'tumped > > over' --- 'I reached to get my beer and accidentally tumped it over.'" > > > > Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I > > suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it > > on a sign at a Taco Bell: > > > > Jeet chet? > > Yont to? > > > > [yont rhymes with won't, of course] is anybody besides me a fan of the > > very definitely dated video from our own Preston and Shuy on varieties > > of am eng? well, a fan of some parts of it anyway, esp this section on > > style. every time I hear a comment on jeet chet I think of that guy > > (who also did a skit of middle-aged hopelessly uncool dude trying to be > > hip by using slang, who is he anyway? dInIs?) > > > > Ellen Johnson > > Assistant Professor of Linguistics > > Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing > > Berry College, Box 350 > > Mt. Berry, GA 30149 > > 706-368-5638 > > http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ > > ejohnson at berry.edu _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 9 02:51:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 21:51:45 EST Subject: Huacamole (1894) and Texas books Message-ID: TEXAN RANCH LIFE by Mary Jaques H. Cox, London 1894 Texas A & M University Press, College Station 1989 reprint I had no time (about two minutes) to flip through this book. I did find "huacamole" in a nice context. OED and M-W have 1920 for "guacamole." Pg. 176: school marm...drummers. Pg. 234: tamales...peloncillas. Pg. 236: ice cream shake. Pg. 251: play the bear (hacienda el aso(?)). Pg. 286: huacamole. Pg. 278: tamalada (picnic). Pg. 280: _pilon-cillas_, a kind of sandwich of sliced bread and native syrup made from brown sugar and grated cheese. -------------------------------------------------------- THE TRUTH ABOUT TEXAS by Lewis Nordyke Thomas Y. Crowell Company, NY 1957 Pg. 9: Anywhere you go in Texas, or in the nation for that matter, you hear the quickie-type story that is known as the T.O.M.--Texas Oil Millionaire. Pg. 48: Out in the cotton country of the Texas plains a gruff farmer might stand in front of the post office and refer to a Mexican as a "greaser" or "pepper-belly"; a country newspaper out there might say "so many white men and so many Mexicans." Pg. 111: In East Texas, people (including waitresses in some of the coffee shops) still "porch" eggs and "warsh" on Monday. Pg. 115: ..."Juneteenth." Pg. 130: The old boy was no more bumfuzzled about Big D (that's what we call it) than many Texans are. Pg. 198: For years (El Paso _Herald-Post_ editor Ed--ed.) has referred to the Latins as the "Juan Smiths." Pg. 210: Texans say they love (Pg. 211--ed.) the Oklahoma Panhandle because it is a buffer between them and Republican Kansas, which they call the "three sons state"--sunflowers, sunshine, and sons of --. (No relation to the old tv show MY THREE SONS--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- SONORA SKETCH BOOK by John W. Hilton Macmillan Company, NY 1947 This was an interesting book, but I didn't find anything like "taco" or "Montezuma's revenge." There's a chapter on the tortilla. Hilton cites other books I have to check out, such as Timothy Gilman Turner's BULLETS, BOTTLES AND GARDENIAS (1935) and Arthur Walbridge North's CAMP AND CAMINO IN LOWER CALIFORNIA (1910). Hilton wrote an article on Mexican "jumping beans" for the SATURDAY EVENING POST in 1942, and it's a chapter here. Pg. 284 has a recipe for "chillicalil," but I didn't find that spelling on the web. -------------------------------------------------------- CAMPFIRES ON DESERT AND LAVA by William T. Hornaday Charles Scribner's Sons, NY 1908 Pg. 33: (s.f.a.k.)* *so far as known. (I hope the page number is right. This abbreviation was used on several pages--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- HIGHWAYS AND BYWAYS OF FLORIDA by Clifton Johnson Macmillan Company, NY 1918 I didn't find "hush puppy." Pg. 87: ..."Magic City." (Miami. See my "Magic City" post if it's there in the old archives--ed.) Pg. 88: ..."singing sand." Pg, 99: "Grits and grunts" are the favorite foods of many of the Key Westers. Pg. 252: ..."groundnut cakes"--that is, peanut candy. -------------------------------------------------------- JAPANESE IN AMERICA by Charles Lanman Longmans, Green, Reader and Dyer; London 1872 I found this looking at what other books Charles Lanman (1819-1895) wrote. I was intrigued by a Japanese book at this early date. Pg. 121, in a chapter on Japanese costume, mentions "haki-mono." A "kimono" antedate? From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Sun Dec 9 03:52:29 2001 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 21:52:29 -0600 Subject: jeet chet Message-ID: For once I've got documentation for an occurence earlier than cited here so far. My field notes for August 1958, written in an isolated backwoods community in Chiapas, Mexico, comment on my surprise at encountering a Mexican rural development agent who demonstrated his facility in English by producing this dialogue: "Jeetchet? No, jew?" -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Sun Dec 9 05:22:58 2001 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 23:22:58 -0600 Subject: n-word Message-ID: Some years ago, I got in terrible trouble because I said the "n-word" in what I innocently thought was an entirely appropriate way. WARNING: I use that word in what follows because I am talking about it as a word. It is one of many words I only use when talking about them as words. I had asked students in a course on ethnographic fieldwork to find and critically analyze some ethnographic monograph in which the author devoted attention to how fieldwork affects the ethnographer. In class, they said they were having trouble finding the kind of book I had in mind and asked me for suggestions. I rattled off half a dozen titles or so before I fell into a hole that it took me weeks of class to escape. I started my descent into the inferno by mentioning Bronislaw Malinowski's field diaries, which I immediately regretted. I explained by saying "No, I take that back, that wouldn't be a good one. That's the one where Malinowski calls the Trobriand Islanders 'niggers'." I thought that made it clear that I objected to Malinoski's language AND his attitude toward his informants, and I didn't want my students to have to deal with such problems for the purposes of this assignment. (Yes, he did use that word. Repeatedly.) Then I went on to name some more books that would be appropriate for that class. Nothing happened immediately. Ten minutes later, however, an African American woman in the class exploded with objections. She said she'd never heard "the n-word" used in a college classroom or in her graduate studies. She found my quotation of the word so unsettling that she felt she had to stop the class to object. Ooops. I'm afraid I made things worse, not better, by pointing out that I'm used to talking about words in the classroom even when they are words I don't use when speaking in my own voice. (I offered the examples of "fuck" and "shit" -- words I would not consider using in a classroom UNLESS I was considering them as words rather than using them as expressions of my feelings.) I pointed out that it is literally true that Malinowski used the word "nigger" in his diaries, and I was referring to that fact, not joining him in his application of the word. I said that was precisely why I could NOT recommend that students use that book for the purposes of my assignment. Then I compounded my own error by considering two controversial instances where I think there is some point to using that particular -- and particularly objectionable -- word. One is in Huckleberry Finn. For me, the apotheosis of the whole book comes in Huck's reflection that if he was going to go to hell for considering Nigger Jim to be a human being, then he was just going to have to go to hell. The other is the scene in Showboat (as originally staged and filmed), where a white man about to be arrested for the crime of having married a black woman who passed for white cuts his wife and sucks up some of the resulting blood. Just as the sheriff is about to arrest him for miscegenation, he says "ask anybody here: I got nigger blood in me, too". At the same time, I pointed out that there is another use of the word "nigger" in Showboat that makes no point, does not advance the story, and is quite properly excised in latter-day versions of the show. That's the objectionable line "Niggers all work on the Mississippi" in the song "Old Man River". Looking back at how I grew up, both literary cases I cited in class were extremely powerful in shaping my own resistance to racism -- a resistance so strong that I've endangered my livelihood and my social position (and actually lost more than one job) by fighting its manifestations. (I've also been beaten up badly enough to need hospitalization, and my life has been threatened, because I don't accept racial discrimination when there's a chance to stand up against it. I first got in trouble about that as a fifth grader, when I objected to the U.S. "internment" -- I said, properly, "imprisonment" -- of people of Japanese descent nearly 60 years ago, and I've been in social trouble lately for objecting to our current mountains of discrimination against Moslems and people whose ancestors came from Southwest Asia.) All right, I was dumb in class that day. And dumbfounded. And I really compounded my error. But until that day I had never considered using such euphemisms as "the n-word", "the f-word", and the like when talking about words as words. The student who found my quotation so objectionable took her complaint to her advisor (not in my department). Luckily, the advisor knows me well; she counseled the student to continue in my course and suspend judgment for a while. I guess the judgment came out in my favor: the student later asked me to serve on her doctoral committee. (I was delighted to do so. Her dissertation really was good, too.) -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! Ellen Johnson wrote: > > I forwarded this before, but I don't think my email went out the day the > worm shut us down. addresses the question of whether the n-word is > becoming less taboo or not. Ellen > > This article from NYTimes.com > has been sent to you by fsgiles at arches.uga.edu. > A Black Author Hurls That Word as a Challenge > > December 1, 2001 > > By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK > > At halftime of a 1993 basketball game against Miami > University of Ohio, Keith Dambrot, varsity men's basketball > coach at Central Michigan University, called his team > together to talk about the word "nigger." Mr. Dambrot, who > is white, had overheard his African- American players call > each other "nigger" to denote toughness and tenacity on the > court. He asked the players permission to use the word in > the same sense, and after they assented he adopted > "nigger," too. A few weeks later, after administrative > censure, sensitivity training and two campus protests, Mr. > Dambrot lost his job and promptly filed suit. > > His case is one of dozens analyzed in "Nigger," a new book > by Randall Kennedy, an African-American scholar at the > Harvard Law School. Mr. Kennedy recounts many unpleasant > episodes, like the embarrassing use of the term by Senator > Robert C. Byrd of West Virginia in a public appearance last > march. But Mr. Kennedy also considers the newer, more > complicated use of "nigger" as a term of affection by young > African-Americans and their well-meaning white friends. All > in all, he argues, the new uses are gradually helping to > exorcise the word's power as America's "paradigmatic ethnic > slur." > > Even before the book's appearance in stores next month, its > uncomfortable title has elicited considerable hand-wringing > among the mostly white staff of its publisher, Pantheon > Books, where some executives have even refused to say its > name. It has also become the source of a certain > mischievous amusement on the part of its African-American > editor. And as advanced word spreads among other > African-American scholars, the title has provoked > denunciations from some who vehemently disagree with Mr. > Kennedy's thesis even before they have read the book. > > "When I show up on CNN, I get e-mails from racists calling > me a nigger bitch, O.K.?" said Julianne Malveaux, an > African-American economist and newspaper columnist, "so I > don't think its use is taking the sting out of it. I think > it's escalating at this point. You are just giving a whole > bunch of racists who love to use the word permission to use > it even more, like, `I am not really using it, I am just > talking about a book!' " > > Patricia Williams, an African- American professor at > Columbia Law School, objected to the title: "That word is a > bit like fire - you can warm your hands with the kind of > upside-down camaraderie that it gives, or you can burn a > cross with it. But in any case it depends on the context > and the users' intention, and seeing it floating abstractly > on a book shelf in a world that is still as polarized as > ours makes me cringe." Houston A. Baker Jr., an African- > American professor of English at Duke University, agreed > about the title: "I see no reason whatsoever to do this, > except to make money. It is a crude marketing technique > unworthy of someone with the kind of penetrating > intelligence that Professor Kennedy has." > > For his part, Mr. Kennedy said he felt no qualms about the > sensational title, adding, "I write a book to be read." > > He said he had come up with the idea for the book, which > grew out of a series of lectures, after idly typing the > word "nigger" into a database of court cases. He found over > 4,000 entries. Even before prosecutors in the O. J. Simpson > case argued that hearing a witness's use of the word might > unduly bias a jury, courts have often grappled with the > caustic power of the word's history. Some courts have ruled > that hearing the word "nigger" constitutes a provocation to > violence similar to receiving a physical blow. Others have > determined that speaking the word as an insult can > disqualify a prosecutor or judge from his job. Lawyers have > argued that a juror's utterance of the word in earshot of > other jurors can invalidate their deliberations. > > Mr. Kennedy writes approvingly of entertainers' penchant > for "nigger." The comedian Lenny Bruce expounded the idea > that repeating the word "nigger" could defang its > derogatory impact, capitalizing on the word's shock-value > in the process. But Mr. Kennedy notes that African-American > rappers and comedians do not concern themselves much with > whether they are encouraging white racists or disarming > them. "They say, `We don't feel constrained that we have to > burnish the image of the Negro - we think this is fun and > we are going to do it,' " Mr. Kennedy said. "Frankly, I > felt inspired by that." > > Erroll McDonald, Mr. Kennedy's editor at Pantheon and one > of the few senior African-American editors in book > publishing, was delighted with the manuscript. "I > appreciated its importance instantly," he said, "It is just > such a curious word that provokes atavistic passions in > people, and I thought it was time for a proper reckoning > with it." He continued: "I for one am appalled by that > euphemism `the N word.' It seems an elision of something > that would be better off talked about. There are some > people out there talking about the `N- word' that do regard > a certain section of the population as niggers." > > Mr. McDonald enjoyed the reactions of colleagues, almost > all of them white. He carried a piece of paper around the > office with the word "nigger" written on it, asking people > to pronounce it. Presenting the idea at a planning session > in January, he asked about 45 editors and other executives > to say it unison. In both cases, some refused. > > "I think it is pretty fun," Mr. McDonald said, imagining > customers asking a bookstore clerk, "Can I have one > `Nigger' please? Where are your `Niggers'?" He added, "I am > not afraid of the word `nigger.' " > > Some of the sales and marketing executives, however, were > nervous, partly about how to publicize a book some would > not name aloud and partly about the subtitle. Mr. McDonald > picked the subtitle, "A Problem in American Culture," which > appeared in the Pantheon catalog sent to reviewers and > stores. But at a sales conference in August, some > executives worried that consumers might think "nigger" > referred to African-Americans and that by implication > African-Americans were the "problem," said Joy Dallanegra- > Sanger, who is white and the marketing director of the > division of Random House that includes Pantheon. > > Mr. McDonald disagreed but acquiesced. "I always thought of > `nigger' as an imaginary construct, like `goblins' or > `elves.' I never thought they actually existed, but > apparently they do in the minds of some." The subtitle was > changed to "The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word," > clarifying that the subject was a word and not a person. > > In the past, librarians and bookstore owners have sometimes > removed books from their shelves for containing the word > "nigger" in the title, including "The Nigger of the > Narcissus," by Joseph Conrad. But several bookstores, > including some catering mainly to African-Americans, said > that they planned to stock Mr. Kennedy's book. Several > noted the comedian Dick Gregory's 1964 autobiography, > "Nigger." He wrote at the time that he hoped the word would > become obsolete, but he also joked that it was advertising > for the book. > > John McWhorter, an African- American linguist and the > author of the forthcoming book "The Power of Babel" (Henry > Holt), read an early copy. He said he shared Mr. Kennedy's > hopeful fascination with the changing uses of the word > among young African-Americans and even their white friends, > suggesting that the book might further dilute the > opprobrium the word carries. "Pretty soon we are going to > have a book called `Nigger' that is going to be sitting in > front of every bookstore in the United States, and that > will be one more step toward taking the power of the word > away." > > The most immediate effect, however, is likely to be an > escalation of the debate over the politics of its use. > Richard Delgado, a Mexican-American professor at the > University of Colorado Law School, who has argued for > restrictions on hate-speech, said that he, too, feared that > Mr. Kennedy's defense of the term's novel uses would > encourage racists. But Mr. Delgado also said that Mr. > Kennedy risked slighting other ethnic groups by > underestimating the power of other slurs. Calling "nigger" > the "paradigmatic" ethnic slur was "parochial," Mr. Delgado > said. > > For his part, Mr. Dambrot, the basketball coach who lost > his job for using the word, said he favored open > discussion, even of his own mistake. He lost his suit and > worked as a stockbroker for five years before he found > another job coaching basketball, for a high school in > Akron, Ohio. This year he finally returned to coaching a > college team, at the University of Akron. > > "I try to use the whole situation as an educational tool > for the kids," he said. "I explain that you have to > understand how different people understand your words. Be > careful what you say. Every decision you make can effect > the rest of your life, and my life can be case study for > that." -- From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Sun Dec 9 12:58:36 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 13:58:36 +0100 Subject: Huacamole.... Haki-mono Message-ID: No, haki-mono is not an antedate for kimono. Hakimono simply means "shoes". Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From mnewman at QC.EDU Sun Dec 9 16:48:10 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 11:48:10 -0500 Subject: n-word In-Reply-To: <3C12F532.D9145F97@corn.cso.niu.edu> Message-ID: >ct. > >Ooops. > >I'm afraid I made things worse, not better, by pointing out that I'm used >to talking about words in the classroom even when they are words I don't >use when speaking in my own voice. (I offered the examples of "fuck" and >"shit" -- words I would not consider using in a classroom UNLESS I was >considering them as words rather than using them as expressions of my >feelings.) I pointed out that it is literally true that Malinowski used >the word "nigger" in his diaries, and I was referring to that fact, not >joining him in his application of the word. I said that was precisely why >I could NOT recommend that students use that book for the purposes of my >assignment. I'm not sure that self criticism is appropriate. It was the student who was unreasonable and illogical, and fortunately she evidently came to see that she reacted inappropriately and didn't cause further problems. It is necessary to sensitive to others' responses to language in classrooms. It is also necessary to realize the history of dehumanization and pain that goes into the power of the word "nigger." But what offends can be hard to anticipate, and if we are being professional, then inappropriate responses by students are not our fault. On the article, I am struck by the fact that the contemporary use of the r-less version to mean "dude" (discussed a month or so ago) is mentioned only in a confused and incomplete way. It is only the r-ful version that retains a racial sense among most inner city kids. -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 10 10:11:46 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 05:11:46 EST Subject: War on Poverty (1955); The Way It Is; Fight Terms Message-ID: WAR ON POVERTY (continued) It's about a decade before LBJ. "Great Society" is almost here as well! From the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 29 November 1955, pg. 24, col. 1 (editorials): _"Waging War on Poverty"_ It is a function of the good society to strive ceaselessly and imaginatively to improve the material condition of its members within a framework of freedom. In that context, Governor Harriman's proposal for a bi-partisan commission to study ways of raising the earning capacity of New York State's lower-income groups is highly commendable. (...) (Col. 2--ed.) It is rather unfortunate that Governor Harriman, in making his suggestions for government action, chose to characterize them as "waging a war on poverty." It is a fine phrase, but the Governor's program is only a skirmish line, or a mopping-up action. -------------------------------------------------------- THE WAY IT IS (continued) A cartoon caption (the Soviet Union is forcing Communism to its satellites) in the NYHT, 10 November 1955, pg. 26, col. 3: "This Is the Way It Is and This Is the Way It's Going to Stay!" -------------------------------------------------------- WASHINGTON: FIRST IN WAR... I don't know what date Fred Shapiro has for this. From Red Smith's column in the NYHT, 1 November 1955, section 3, pg. 1, col. 1: "WASHINGTON--first in war, first in peace, and last in the American League." If that witticism wasn't what killed vaudeville, it'll have to take the blame until somebody offers a more poisonous gag. Chances are, however, that the line was convulsing audiences even before Griff got to the capital, for he didn't have the original copyright on terrible teams. -------------------------------------------------------- THE LITTLE PICTURE The opposite of the "Big Picture," but not used as often. From the NYHT, 27 November 1955, section 2, pg. 5, col. 1: _"The Little Picture" Throws_ _Light on School Problems_ _Focus on a Small Town and Its People_ (...) (Col. 2--ed.) The way to get hold of the monster, the producers felt, was to "narrow the focus" and capture, in Mr. Murrow's terms, "the little picture." -------------------------------------------------------- SOPHOMORE JINX Not in the OED. See the old ADS-L archives for "jinx" and "cover jinx," although I think they've been destroyed. From an interview with George Gobel in TV AND RADIO MAGAZINE, NYHT, 20 November 1955, pg. 6, col. 2: Q. What does Gobel think of the old "Sophomore Jinx"? A. The "Sophomore Jinx" is a phrase invented by the press, and since used in a number of articles discussing George's current season. George is not too concerned about the "jinx" as such. His job will remain to get the best possible material and to make the most of it on the show. He feels that viewers will continue to buy entertainment regardless whether the show is in its second, third, fourth or fifth year. -------------------------------------------------------- FIGHT TERMS From TV AND RADIO MAGAZINE, NYHT, 6 November 1955, pg. 23, col. 1: _A GLOSSARY OF FIGHT TERMS for TV FANS_ _by Jack Gregson_ (...) Here are some of the salty expressions of the ring that properly translated into our everyday language gives the television boxing fan some more of the color of one of the world's oldest sports. Terms used in the ring during the heat of battle: 1. "Painter"--a light-fisted boxer whose skilled hands reach his opponents face rpeatedly, with telling effect. 2. "Stick and Run"--a tactical maneuver to jab and yet keep out of reach of a murderous puncher. 3. "Brick-layer"--a fighter with dynamite-laden fists. 4. "Powder-Puff"--a ringman whose punches are timid and non-effective. 5. "Timber"--a fighter who has been softened up by an avalanche of (Col. 2--ed.) blows and is ready to hit the canvas for the knockout. 6. "Bow-Wow"--term describing a fighter, short on courage. 7. "Foot-in-Bucket"--a handler who is awkward in the corner and generally is a greater hindrance than a help. Then there are fight terms that are used in the everyday give and take of the professional boxing business. "Broker"--any boxing man who is down on his luck. "We Wuz Robbed"--one of the expressions created by the late Joe Jacobs to describe a bad decision when his heavyweight Mex Schmeling lost to Jack Sharkey. "Only a Baby"--the plaint of a boxing manager whose inexperienced fighter has been offered a match with a skilled veteran. "_We_ Win"--the manager's proud boast, after his fighter has won a match. "_He_ Fought Like a Bum"--the manager's statement when his fighter has lost (note the change from plural to singular). "Cut up like Swiss Cheese"--allusion to a fighter who has more than two managers sharing his purse. "Cutie"--a fighter knows every trick of the trade--good and bad--and uses them. "Tomato Can"--an inferior fighter. This reference is generally made by one manager describing another manager's fighter. From Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM Mon Dec 10 16:17:05 2001 From: Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:17:05 -0500 Subject: "southernisms" Message-ID: >From "Philadelphia Citypaper.net" http://www.citypaper.net/articles/081497/article008.shtml August 14?21, 1997 cover story Phillyspeak By Jim Quinn's guide to Philadelphia English ? spoken here like nowhere else in the world. [...] But, sadly, articles about our weird and wonderful dialect always stick to old jokes like: "Jeet yet?" "No. Jew?" That's not Philadelphia dialect. That's just plain old American Slur Colloquial. Philadelphians talk that way when they're in a hurry, sure. But so does everybody else in the Northern United States. Concentrating on "Jeet" and"Jew" is like describing the hot dog as Philadelphia food. We do eat hot dogs. But if you want to know Philly, you have to try that great, gooey watch-your-shirt midnight dripper, the cheesesteak. [...] Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company : speech recognition 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM Mon Dec 10 16:28:30 2001 From: Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 11:28:30 -0500 Subject: n-word Message-ID: Michael Newman wrote >>> On the article, I am struck by the fact that the contemporary use of the r-less version to mean "dude" (discussed a month or so ago) is mentioned only in a confused and incomplete way. It is only the r-ful version that retains a racial sense among most inner city kids. <<< In r-less dialects like those of NYC and Boston, how can they tell? Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company : speech recognition 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 10 04:08:08 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:08:08 +0800 Subject: more lexicographic gaps Message-ID: Since so much of what we discuss here is either lexical semantics or lexical pragmatics, it's worth requesting that subsequent editions of the OED and AHD contain an entry for "pragmaticist" as well as for "semanticist". Right now, the AHD4 has one for the latter (= 'a specialist in semantics') but none for the former, while the OED on-line has no entry for either one. I haven't checked to see what other dictionaries do here. larry P.S. The OED entry for "pragmatist", linking it to "pragmatism" rather than to "pragmatics" [which, incidentally, is entered under sense B4 of "pragmatic"], looks fine to me, although I wouldn't be surprised to find some cites of "pragmatist" for what I'd always call "pragmaticist", i.e. 'a specialist in pragmatics' From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Mon Dec 10 17:09:58 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:09:58 -0500 Subject: FW: Re: "southernisms" Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: Ellen Johnson Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 12:04 PM To: 'lsparlin at rollanet.org' Subject: RE: Re: "southernisms" you mean want and won't aren't pronounced the same? Ellen -----Original Message----- From: Linda Sparlin [mailto:lsparlin at ROLLANET.ORG] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 2:42 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "southernisms" Is not "tump" simply a blend of "turn" and "dump"? As in "...turned it over" or "...dumped it over" ? And I have to disagree slightly with the pronunciation of "Jeet chet?" and "Yont to?" "Yont" rhymes with "want," not "won't." It's simply lazy enunciation, rushed/compressed into fewer distinct sounds, meaning "Did you eat yet?" and "Do you want to?" in all of MO, OK, KS, IL, as far east as Cleveland (my only experience.) Haven't read the whole string - so my apologies if this has already been suggested. Linda _____________________ ...funny this should show up in the Atl Journal-Constitution's anonymously called in "Vent" section this week. did one of you submit it? "Favorite 'you-can't-get-more-Southern-than-this' Southernism: 'tumped over' --- 'I reached to get my beer and accidentally tumped it over.'" Also, something that people around here think is a "southernism" but I suspect it is widespread. I heard it commented on this week and saw it on a sign at a Taco Bell: Jeet chet? Yont to? [yont rhymes with won't, of course] is anybody besides me a fan of the very definitely dated video from our own Preston and Shuy on varieties of am eng? well, a fan of some parts of it anyway, esp this section on style. every time I hear a comment on jeet chet I think of that guy (who also did a skit of middle-aged hopelessly uncool dude trying to be hip by using slang, who is he anyway? dInIs?) Ellen Johnson Assistant Professor of Linguistics Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing Berry College, Box 350 Mt. Berry, GA 30149 706-368-5638 http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ ejohnson at berry.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Dec 10 17:32:36 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 12:32:36 -0500 Subject: "southernisms" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mark, I collect such stuff, but I'm having trouble in your message telling which part is your comment and which is taken from the source. Can you clear it up for us? Others might also like to know. Thanks, dInIs > >From "Philadelphia Citypaper.net" >http://www.citypaper.net/articles/081497/article008.shtml > >August 14?21, 1997 >cover story > >Phillyspeak > >By Jim Quinn's guide to Philadelphia English ? spoken here like nowhere >else in the world. > > [...] >But, sadly, articles about our weird and wonderful dialect always stick to >old jokes like: > >"Jeet yet?" > >"No. Jew?" > >That's not Philadelphia dialect. That's just plain old American Slur >Colloquial. Philadelphians talk that way when they're in a hurry, sure. But >so does everybody else in the Northern United States. Concentrating on >"Jeet" and"Jew" is like describing the hot dog as Philadelphia food. We do >eat hot dogs. But if you want to know Philly, you have to try that great, >gooey watch-your-shirt midnight dripper, the cheesesteak. > [...] > > > Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist > Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company : speech recognition > 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Dec 10 18:21:05 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:21:05 -0500 Subject: coons & cutters Message-ID: What are they? The following paragraph was prompted by a report that boys had been arrested at 2 in the morning while playing pranks in the street with a fire engine they'd taken from a fire house. In the passage quoted, the editor is evidently representing the boys as trying to act like the grown-ups they admired, by talking like them. The dictionaries show "coon" = person, man, as current at about this time, but the most likely meaning for "cutter" (= an attractive girl) comes from the 1870s. Are there other meanings? "The engine house has been the ruin of many a lad, and we hope the firemen will now longer allow them to have keys, which almost every little bantling, from 12 to 16, has in his possession, and may be seen at the corner of streets vociferating loudly, "this is a coon, and that's a cutter;" talking of overflowing, the length of leader, and with mathematical precision calculating the strokes of the piston." Evening Star, September 17, 1834, p. 2, col. 4 I might mention that the firemen at this time were all volunteers. They had had excellent reputations as being young men in training in their day-jobs to be merchants and business men. A decade or so later, the fire houses were seen to be under the patronage of politicians, and the firemen as thugs and brawlers who were more useful in enforcing correct voting during elections than in putting out fires. Boss Tweed's original power base was a firehouse, and there is still a firehouse in lower Manhattan with the face of the Tammany tiger on its engines. I don't see "leader" in the OED, with reference to fire-hose. "Overflowing" was otherwise called "washing". If a fire wasn't near a source of sufficient water, the firemen would set up a daisy-chain of fire-engines, one at the source of water, drawing it up and pumping it into the tank of another machine nearer the fire, and from that, perhaps, into a third machine, until the water reached a machine at the fire. The pumps were worked by hand, and it was a matter of pride for the firemen working the first machine in line to pump so vigorously that the men working the next machine couldn't keep up, and the water overflowed their tank. (It might be questioned whether this game was a constructive one. The firemen dragged the fire-engines to the fire by hand -- horses weren't used -- and an English traveller had observed that they used so much energy in yelling while pulling the machines that he wondered that they weren't exhausted when they got to the fire.) GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 10 19:41:51 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:41:51 EST Subject: Huacamole (1894) Message-ID: Huacamole/Guacamole/Quacamole. OED and M-W have 1920. Here's the cite. TEXAN RANCH LIFE by Mary Jaques Horace Cox, London 1894 Pg. 286: The _portales_ of the fruit market were very fine and we enjoyed the prickly pears--when they had been peeled for us. One evening in the dusk we bought some _chirimollas_ and _aguacate_, mistaking the latter for figs. They were anything but pleasant, but after being dressed according to Mr. Barrow's orders, made a nice dish known as "huacamole." The figs and bananas at the hotel were delicious. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 10 19:48:02 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:48:02 EST Subject: Little Italy (San Francisco); Safe for Democracy Message-ID: LITTLE ITALY (SAN FRANCISCO) "In Little Italy" is the photo caption for a story "Old Wine in New Bottles," about San Francisco's Italian population, in SUNSET magazine, June 1913, volume 30, page 524. Alas, no "cioppino" here. -------------------------------------------------------- SAFE FOR DEMOCRACY I don't know what Fred Shapiro has. RECRUITING POSTERS ISSUED BY THE U. S. NAVY SINCE THE DECLARATION OF WAR PRESS U. S. NAVY RECRUITING BUREAU 1918 (No page number. A navy man looks at you with arms folded--ed.) _He is keeping_ _the World safe_ _for Democracy_ _Enlist and help him_ (Clifford Carleton, artist. I was looking for "Join the Navy and See the World," but it's not here--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 10 20:00:54 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:00:54 EST Subject: La Cucaracha Message-ID: BULLETS, BOTTLES, AND GARDENIAS by Timothy G. Turner South-West Press Dallas, Texas 1935 Turner's book is a fabulous read. I showed some stuff to David Shulman today, and he was interested in this song, which is well-attested here. Pg. 178: "La Cucaracha," both in its sprightly aid and its curious, endless verses, was one of the notable pieces of Mexican folk music, the "corridos" that are something like the American Negro ballads such as "Frankie and Johnny" and the blueses. I had first heard it in the Orozco revolution and knew many verses. Now the Villistas had taken it up, adding verses as the campaign progressed and singing it as they went into battle. "La Cucaracha" originally came from southern Mexico and was a song of the smokers of marihuana. (Mexican form of Indian hemp), a narcotic drug which has stages of great excitation to the addict. The word "cucaracha," is Spanish for cockroach, but in this sense it is a slang word for the marihuana addict, or marihuanero, which makes some sense out of the chorus: "La cucaracha, la cucaracha Ya no puede caminar, Porque le falta, porque no tiene Marihuana que fumar." (The cucaracha, the cucaracha, He can't travel any more, Because he lacks, because he lacks Marihuana for to smoke.) (Music notation on facing page, a photo of Villa soldier singing on another page, longer lyrics follow this page--ed.) From douglas at NB.NET Mon Dec 10 21:41:47 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:41:47 -0500 Subject: coons & cutters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >... The dictionaries show "coon" = person, man, as current at about this >time, but the most likely meaning for "cutter" (= an attractive girl) >comes from the 1870s. Are there other meanings? From the context presented, I would speculate that "coon" and "cutter" refer not to persons but to pieces of equipment. A cutter might be some type of cutting tool; "coon" is opaque to me. Both Coon and Cutter are reasonably common surnames; perhaps hoses or pumps or fire-axes or boots or whatever came in Coon(tm) and Cutter(tm) brands. Another possibility: "coon" = "washer", an engine whose capacity permits overflow [a raccoon is traditionally an animal which 'washes' things], "cutter" = the opposite, an engine which is of inadequate capacity and which thus "cuts" the available overall flow. Still another possibility: one type of fire or building might have been designated "coon" because it called for climbing, another "cutter" because it called for cutting through a wall or door. Just wild speculations from ignorance. >I don't see "leader" in the OED, with reference to fire-hose. Here it is: http://www.emergency-world.com/eh/terms.htm -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 11 00:41:56 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:41:56 EST Subject: Romaine (Caesar?) Salad in Coronado, Calif. Message-ID: This continues ADS-L discussion of "Caesar salad." Supposedly, Caesar Cardini came up with it on July 4th, 1924, but the earliest "Caesar salad" cite I have is 1947 (GOURMET magazine, published in Los Angeles). I have earlier "Romaine salad" cites that are similar. A copy of this is being sent to the Hotel del Coronado, which helped look through its historic menus but didn't find anything this early. I've looked at all of the SUNSET cookbooks, but I decided to go through the magazine 1945-1947. From SUNSET magazine, March 1945, pg. 27, col. 1: _A SALAD TO REMEMBER_ Down in Coronado, California, there's a restaurant called La Avenida Cafe which is known as the "Home of Romaine Salad." Small wonder, for the salad which is their _specialte de la maison_ is a dish to tempt the epicure. Here's the recipe as given us by S. Jack Clapp, who is La Avenida's authority on such matters. _ROMAINE SALAD_ 3 or 4 heads chilled, crisp Romaine 2 handfuls crisp croutons (little cubes pf fried bread) 6 tablespoons garlic oil 4 tablespoons olive oil Salt and black pepper to taste 1 tablespoon Worcestershire sauce 6 heaping tablespoons grated Parmesan-type cheese 1 egg Juice of 3 lemons Break the Romaine into a salad bowl; add croutons, oil, seasonings, and cheese. Break the raw egg over the salad, then pour the lemon juice over the egg. Toss all together lightly from the bottom, and serve. Serves 6. Regarding the ingredients, Mr. Clapp has this to say: _Romaine:_ Purchase pale green heads. Remove outer leaves, wash thoroughly, shake dry, and chill in refrigerator. _Garlic Oil:_ Chop or mash a clove of garlic and place in bottom of a pint jar. Fill jar with any salad oil except olive oil, keep at kitchen temperature, and use as needed. Use the oil only; don't add the garlic to the salad. _Olive Oil:_ In the case of this particular salad, best results are obtained if only a part (4 tablespoons) of the oil used is olive oil. _Black Pepper:_ If possible, grin it yourself with a pepper mill. Use plenty. _Parmesan-type Cheese:_ Ideally, this should be freshly grated. _Egg:_ The raw egg acts as a binder and causes the dressing to be evenly distributed through the salad. The flavor of the egg is not detectable in the finished salad. With the salad, Mr. Clapp suggests serving Garlic Toast. To make it, split French rolls, brush the cut surface with garlic oil, sprinkle with Parmesan-type cheese and paprika, and heat in the oven. From SUNSET, July 1946, "Chefs of the West," pg. 45, col. 1: Comet Brooks concludes...with two classic recipes: (...) _ROMAINE SALAD_ 1 large clove garlic 4 small heads romaine 2 eggs, boiled 1 minute 10 tablespoons Parmesan cheese 1 teaspoon Worcestershire sauce 1/4 cup olive oil 2 tablespoons tarragon wine vinegar 2 cups croutons Salt and freshly ground pepper Juice 1 lemon Mash garlic clove in salad bowl and rub around sides. Add romaine, torn in fairly large pieces. Scoop the soft-cooked eggs out onto the greens. Add other ingredients, using lemon juice last. Toss well with hands. Serve _al fresco_ with toasted garlic bread, a light, dry California wine, and a fresh fruit compote, well chilled. Comet Brooks (signed--ed.) Canoga Park, California From SUNSET, March 1946, pg. 48, col. 2: _Green salads_ (..) Here's the recipe for one of our favorite green salads, _Romaine salad_, which appeared in _Sunset_ in March 1945. (I did _not_ find the name "Caesar Salad" in SUNSET through the end of 1947--ed.) From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM Tue Dec 11 01:56:23 2001 From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:56:23 -0500 Subject: n-word Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 23:22:58 -0600 Mike Salovesh writes: > Some years ago, I got in terrible trouble because I said the "n-word" > in > what I innocently thought was an entirely appropriate way. WARNING: > I use > that word in what follows There may be earlier citations, but I had never heard the euphemism, "the N-word," prior to the O.J. Simpson trial. I suspect that the media coverage is what brought that into common parlance. But I think it did more than that. I believe that Cochran's doubtless deliberate and deliberated use of the euphemism made the actual word even more taboo than it had been before. I found it fascinating that F. Lee Bailey used the entire word when quoting ... what was his name, the detective? ... but not Cochran. And I have little doubt that that was carefully choreographed. You certainly did nothing wrong by quoting a word in a graduate class on language. I find the phenomenon more interesting sociologically than linguistically. In a culture where we no longer use rattles and grotesque masques to cure diseases, there are still words that cannot be spoken aloud. D From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Dec 11 04:05:56 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:05:56 -0500 Subject: more lexicographic gaps Message-ID: A lexicographer's two cents: A more pedestrian gap I noticed the other day in my OED disk (text search) and other dictionaries in my collection is "legally blind," a very worthy lexical item. Even Black's Law Dictionary skirts the issue. There are many good definitions on the Internet. Does anyone know of a dictionary that enters "legally blind"? TOM. Laurence Horn wrote: > > Since so much of what we discuss here is either lexical semantics or > lexical pragmatics, it's worth requesting that subsequent editions of > the OED and AHD contain an entry for "pragmaticist" as well as for > "semanticist". Right now, the AHD4 has one for the latter (= 'a > specialist in semantics') but none for the former, while the OED > on-line has no entry for either one. I haven't checked to see what > other dictionaries do here. > > larry > > P.S. The OED entry for "pragmatist", linking it to "pragmatism" > rather than to "pragmatics" [which, incidentally, is entered under > sense B4 of "pragmatic"], looks fine to me, although I wouldn't be > surprised to find some cites of "pragmatist" for what I'd always call > "pragmaticist", i.e. 'a specialist in pragmatics' From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 10 16:10:04 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 00:10:04 +0800 Subject: n-word In-Reply-To: <20011210.221316.-281971.2.dcamp911@juno.com> Message-ID: At 8:56 PM -0500 12/10/01, Duane Campbell wrote: >On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 23:22:58 -0600 Mike Salovesh > writes: >> Some years ago, I got in terrible trouble because I said the "n-word" >> in >> what I innocently thought was an entirely appropriate way. WARNING: >> I use >> that word in what follows > >There may be earlier citations, but I had never heard the euphemism, "the >N-word," prior to the O.J. Simpson trial. I suspect that the media >coverage is what brought that into common parlance. Curiously, this would chronologically privilege the very different use of "n-word" within the linguistics of negative concord and polarity--referring to negative indefinites like Spanish "nada", "nadie", "nunca" and their cross-linguistic analogues, as originally coined by Itziar Laka in her 1990 MIT dissertation. That, of course, was not a euphemism for anything. larry From mnewman at QC.EDU Tue Dec 11 13:37:15 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:37:15 -0500 Subject: n-word In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Michael Newman wrote > >>>> >On the article, I am struck by the fact that the contemporary use of >the r-less version to mean "dude" (discussed a month or so ago) is >mentioned only in a confused and incomplete way. It is only the r-ful >version that retains a racial sense among most inner city kids. ><<< > >In r-less dialects like those of NYC and Boston, how can they tell? > > Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist > Dragon Systems, a Lernout & Hauspie company : speech recognition > 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com I've wondered about this myself. The difference is clearly there conceptually, since it was reported to me by several kids, as well as it being written with an -a ending. Also, if there were a vowel following, an r would appear. However, the -r form just isn't said, or is said very rarely. I only have one instance of it, a girl saying "I'm a Niggerican" (=half African-American, half Puerto Rican), and that totally neutralizes the difference. I suspect there may be a difference in vowel quality. -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College/CUNY Flushing, NY 11367 From LY053421 at ONLINE.SH.CN Tue Dec 11 13:33:23 2001 From: LY053421 at ONLINE.SH.CN (Leo) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:33:23 +0800 Subject: red carpet Message-ID: Hi everyone, Does anybody there know the etymology of "red carpet"? Thanks. Gao Yongwei Fudan University, China From NameOneNE1 at AOL.COM Tue Dec 11 13:54:35 2001 From: NameOneNE1 at AOL.COM (NameOneNE1 at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:54:35 EST Subject: Dictionary and Name Review Newsletter Message-ID: American Heritage Dictionary with Word Hunter? I would like to buy a version of this dictionary for my new Ibook Mac computer. I had it in my old computer. It has a great feature called Word Hunter or Word Finder. Anyone know where I can find one? Also, I invite you to receive my free newsletter on Product Names, where I review and give a point score to a commercial name in each concise semi-monthly issue. lauren at nameone.net Lauren Teton Name One! Pound Ridge, NY tel. 914 764-0115 Better Names for Business http://nameone.net http://talkingnames.com From grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET Tue Dec 11 14:11:52 2001 From: grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET (Grant Barrett) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:11:52 -0500 Subject: Google Groups Message-ID: Google Groups is out of beta, and now archiving 20 years of Usenet postings. See things such as the first mention of Madonna or Apple Macintosh. Whip out your current antedating projects... http://www.google.com/grphp From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 11 15:28:23 2001 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:28:23 -0800 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: .... I > suppose that the army's > issuance of these items was looked upon as simply > more foolish fooling > around, akin to SNAFU, etc. > Martin Murie Martin, you mean it was Mickey Mouse? ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM Tue Dec 11 16:27:53 2001 From: Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:27:53 -0500 Subject: "southernisms" Message-ID: dInIs requests clarification from me: >>> I collect such stuff, but I'm having trouble in your message telling which part is your comment and which is taken from the source. Can you clear it up for us? Others might also like to know. <<< Everything that you quoted from my post after the attribution and the URL was taken from that article, which is at that URL even as I type these characters. (The bracketed ellipses show my deletions.) I apologize for the confusion. And I wish I could remember where I originally got the reference from. -- Mark From RonButters at AOL.COM Tue Dec 11 18:47:28 2001 From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:47:28 EST Subject: La Cucaracha-- Message-ID: In a message dated 12/10/2001 3:02:25 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: << "La cucaracha, la cucaracha Ya no puede caminar, >> I was SURE that I heard << "La cucaracha, la cucaracha Yo no quero la comer>> Could this have been a drug-free version for the America of the J.Edgar Hoover era? From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Tue Dec 11 19:02:39 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:02:39 -0500 Subject: "Mickey Mouse" In-Reply-To: <20011211152823.92042.qmail@web9706.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, like this: a triad, Disney Mouse/ Bunny Boots/ The Army Way. Martin >.... I >> suppose that the army's >> issuance of these items was looked upon as simply >> more foolish fooling >> around, akin to SNAFU, etc. >> Martin Murie > > >Martin, you mean it was Mickey Mouse? > > > >===== >James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything >SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued >jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of >your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com >or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com A&M Murie N. Bangor NY sagehen at westelcom.com From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Dec 11 19:03:21 2001 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:03:21 -0600 Subject: La Cucaracha-- In-Reply-To: <79.1fa67b2d.2947aec0@aol.com> Message-ID: A cucaracha also is a rattley old car. Barry has the line the way I've heard the song. It's a punny song. DMLance > From: RonButters at AOL.COM > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:47:28 EST > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: La Cucaracha-- > > In a message dated 12/10/2001 3:02:25 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: > > << "La cucaracha, la cucaracha > > Ya no puede caminar, >> > > I was SURE that I heard > > << "La cucaracha, la cucaracha > > Yo no quero la comer>> > > Could this have been a drug-free version for the America of the J.Edgar > Hoover era? > From mnewman at QC.EDU Tue Dec 11 19:12:38 2001 From: mnewman at QC.EDU (Michael Newman) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:12:38 -0500 Subject: La Cucaracha-- In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >A cucaracha also is a rattley old car. Barry has the line the way I've >heard the song. It's a punny song. >DMLance > >> From: RonButters at AOL.COM >> Reply-To: American Dialect Society >> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:47:28 EST >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: La Cucaracha-- >> >> In a message dated 12/10/2001 3:02:25 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes: >> >> << "La cucaracha, la cucaracha >> >> Ya no puede caminar, >> >> >> I was SURE that I heard >> >> << "La cucaracha, la cucaracha >> >> Yo no quero la comer>> > > > > Could this have been a drug-free version for the America of the J.Edgar > > Hoover era? > > Except that Spanish doesn't allow clitics between verb and infinitive. -- Michael Newman Assistant Professor of Linguistics Department of Linguistics and Communication Disorders Queens College Flushing, NY 11367 From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Tue Dec 11 19:22:21 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:22:21 -0500 Subject: red carpet Message-ID: If you are referring to the figurative term meaning a ceremonial welcome or lavish reception, it derives from the practice of laying down a red carpet on formal occasions to greet important visitors. I don't know how long that's been common, but the OED has a 1905 quotation from the Westminster Gazette: "There were waiting on the red-carpeted platform . . . officials representing the railway company." John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: Leo [SMTP:LY053421 at ONLINE.SH.CN] > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 8:33 AM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: red carpet > > Hi everyone, > > Does anybody there know the etymology of "red carpet"? > > Thanks. > > Gao Yongwei > Fudan University, > China > From davemarc at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 11 19:33:00 2001 From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:33:00 -0500 Subject: La Cucaracha-- Message-ID: This might shed some light on the subject: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010727.html Cheers, David From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Tue Dec 11 19:41:03 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 11:41:03 -0800 Subject: red carpet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Back in the 50s, when cattle cars never flew and airlines competed with each other and with the railroads by offering courteous service, United Airlines offered "Red Carpet Service" on its premium transcontinental first-class flights. Even though the service included an actual red carpet rolled out toward the gate from the stairway leading down from the plane (a new DC-7!!!), I'm not sure whether United's literal carpet was continuing the literal tradition, or whether it was re-creating it after the figurative term (or maybe both?). Peter Mc. --On Tuesday, December 11, 2001 2:22 PM -0500 "Baker, John" wrote: > If you are referring to the figurative term meaning a ceremonial > welcome or lavish reception, it derives from the practice of laying down a > red carpet on formal occasions to greet important visitors. I don't know > how long that's been common, but the OED has a 1905 quotation from the > Westminster Gazette: "There were waiting on the red-carpeted platform . > . . officials representing the railway company." **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Dec 11 21:01:18 2001 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:01:18 -0600 Subject: La Cucaracha-- In-Reply-To: <020a01c1827a$a739f960$2fc654a6@gmsc20b> Message-ID: La cucaracha, la cucaracha Ya no puede caminar Porque no tiene, porque le falta Marijuana que fumar. (The cockroach, the cockroach Now he can't go traveling Because he doesn't have, because he lacks Marijuana to smoke.) Ya la murio la cucaracha Ya la lleven a enterrar Entre cuatro zopilotes Y un raton de sacristan. (The cockroach just died And they carried him off to bury him Among four buzzards And the sexton's mouse.) The genre of this song is the relaci?n, a satirical form of folk song in Spain that survives as the corrido in Mexico and Texas. Every decent Texas conjunto has to know the corridos on the deaths of Kennedy brothers, on Hurricane Beulah, and other events. When I was a graduate student, I did a term paper on the personification of animals in these songs in Mexico. In the last line, the sexton is a mouse -- and the buzzards are the pall bearers. Though the composer of early versions may have been satirizing a particular person or event, as with all folk traditions, adaptation is the plan that wins the game in the end. The cucaracha is now just a cochroach, an old jalopy, or a traditional Mexican icon that may be used as the name of a restaurant. If you go to the StraightDope site, you'll see the car reference that may have turned the old Spanish song into a Mexican icon of sorts. The word "may" suffuses all reports on folk items like this one. DMLance > From: davemarc > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:33:00 -0500 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: La Cucaracha-- > > This might shed some light on the subject: > > http://www.straightdope.com/columns/010727.html > > Cheers, > > David > From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Tue Dec 11 23:41:51 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:41:51 EST Subject: THE TOP TEN REASONS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD CELEBRATE HANUKKAH Message-ID: Almost totally irrelevant to philology and the ADS list, but too good not to share: No. 10 No big, fat guy getting stuck in your chimney No. 9 Cleaning wax off your menorah is slightly easier than dismantling an 8-foot tall fir tree No. 8 Compare: chocolate gelt vs. fruitcake No. 7 You get to learn cool new words like "Kislev" and "far-shtoonken-ah" No. 6 No brutal let-down when you discover that Santa Claus isn't real No. 5 Your neighbors are unlikely to complain about how your menorah is blinding them senseless No. 4 It's like a big reunion when everyone gathers at the Chinese restaurant on Christmas Eve No. 3 In a holiday character face-off, Judah Macabee could kick Frosty's butt No. 2 No need to clean up big piles of reindeer poop off your roof And the Number One reason why everyone should celebrate Hanukkah is: **.None of that Naughty-Nice crap**EVERYONE GETS LOOT !!! HAPPY HANUKKAH !!! From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Wed Dec 12 00:12:45 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:12:45 -0500 Subject: THE TOP TEN REASONS WHY EVERYONE SHOULD CELEBRATE HANUKKAH In-Reply-To: <80.14952abf.2947f3bf@aol.com> Message-ID: Someone forgot FREEDOM FROM THE LITTLE DRUMMER BOY. - A. Murie ~~~~~~~~~~~ Jas. A. Landau wrote: >Almost totally irrelevant to philology and the ADS list, but too good not to >share: > >No. 10 >No big, fat guy getting stuck in your chimney > >No. 9 >Cleaning wax off your menorah is slightly easier >than dismantling an 8-foot tall fir tree > >No. 8 >Compare: chocolate gelt vs. fruitcake > >No. 7 >You get to learn cool new words like "Kislev" and >"far-shtoonken-ah" > >No. 6 >No brutal let-down when you discover that Santa >Claus isn't real > >No. 5 >Your neighbors are unlikely to complain about how >your menorah is blinding them senseless > >No. 4 >It's like a big reunion when everyone gathers at the >Chinese restaurant on Christmas Eve > >No. 3 >In a holiday character face-off, Judah Macabee could >kick Frosty's butt > >No. 2 >No need to clean up big piles of reindeer poop off >your roof > >And the Number One reason why everyone should >celebrate Hanukkah is: > >**.None of that Naughty-Nice crap**EVERYONE GETS >LOOT !!! > >HAPPY HANUKKAH !!! From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Wed Dec 12 13:12:30 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:12:30 +0100 Subject: Red carpet Message-ID: Quidfrance under the following address http://www.extense.com/bin/x2cgi_view.cgi?userID=64393794&view=on&query=tapis+roug&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quid.fr%2Fweb.php%3Fweb%3D%2FWEB%2FTRANSPOR%2FQ042870.HTM#marker has: "1842-13-6 tapis rouge d?ploy? ? la gare de Paddington pour le 1er voyage ferroviaire de la reine Victoria (Slough-Londres)." (13.6.1842 red carpet rolled out at Paddington Station for the first railway trip of Queen Victoria, Slough-London) On the Internet I also found this, which might lead to a first date for U.S. - the events must have been reported in Houston (?) newspapers: "Grainger was a director in what later became First City National Bank, and also served as a councilman in boomtown Houston. Each of his four daughters was married in a ceremony that stopped the carriage traffic: a red carpet stretched across Texas Avenue from the family home to the Cathedral. Pictured are Alice Grainger and Col. Nathaniel Alston Taylor of North Carolina on their wedding day in 1867. " http://www.christchurchcathedral.org/generationA.html Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 12 17:05:20 2001 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:05:20 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <004701c1830e$a7d63a20$051742d5@oemcomputer> Message-ID: I was intrigued to discover this morning that the preferred pronunciation of the last syllable of "diabetes" in Amer. Heritage and Random House is -tis rather than -teez. In Webster's it's reversed; OED has only -teez. I always thought -tis was a regionalism; I heard it growing up in the South where it seemed to have the same status as "arthuritis" for arthritis. I am told it's also found in the Midwest. The word is not in DARE. Does anyone know if the -tis pronunciation is regionally restricted or not? Ben Fortson From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Dec 12 17:21:05 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:21:05 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Benjamin Fortson wrote: >I was intrigued to discover this morning that the preferred pronunciation >of the last syllable of "diabetes" in Amer. Heritage and Random House is >-tis rather than -teez. In Webster's it's reversed; OED has only -teez. >I always thought -tis was a regionalism; I heard it growing up in the South >where it seemed to have the same status as "arthuritis" for arthritis. I am >told it's also found in the Midwest. The word is not in DARE. Does anyone >know if the -tis pronunciation is regionally restricted or not? For what it's worth, I've seen the spelling "diabetis" fairly regularly from certain posters on the usenet diabetes support groups. I've never understood where this came from, as it's certainly not something I've noticed here in the northeast. One particular poster, who used to use this spelling *a lot* is a good enough writer that the "mis-spelling" really stood out. She's lived in Alaska most of her adult life, but, if I remember the autobiographical details she's posted correctly, she grew up in Michigan (I'm not sure where). -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Wed Dec 12 18:02:20 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:02:20 -0800 Subject: diabetes Message-ID: Ben: > I was intrigued to discover this morning that the preferred pronunciation > of the last syllable of "diabetes" in Amer. Heritage and Random House is > -tis rather than -teez. In Webster's it's reversed; OED has only -teez. > I always thought -tis was a regionalism; I heard it growing up in the South > where it seemed to have the same status as "arthuritis" for arthritis. I am > told it's also found in the Midwest. The word is not in DARE. Does anyone > know if the -tis pronunciation is regionally restricted or not? That's kinda weird. I've heard "arthur-itis" and "diabetis" in Seattle, and I grew up here(and have mostly lived here), so I should know. "Diabetis" seems to be a fairly common pronunciation here, but I've only heard "arthur-itis" once or twice, mostly among older folks. Anne G From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Wed Dec 12 18:06:23 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:06:23 -0800 Subject: diabetes Message-ID: Alice: > For what it's worth, I've seen the spelling "diabetis" fairly > regularly from certain posters on the usenet diabetes support groups. > I've never understood where this came from, as it's certainly not > something I've noticed here in the northeast. One particular poster, > who used to use this spelling *a lot* is a good enough writer that > the "mis-spelling" really stood out. She's lived in Alaska most of > her adult life, but, if I remember the autobiographical details she's > posted correctly, she grew up in Michigan (I'm not sure where). This gets weirder. I've never seen the *spelling* "diabetis", just the pronunciation. But then, I may not be reading the right kind of literature. Anne G From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Dec 12 18:14:12 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:14:12 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <004301c18337$b8411f00$77fcfd3f@u5a9c9> Message-ID: Ya'll should remember that some schwa-like sounds are more [I] like in southern speech. If one does not give some stress to the last syllable (permitting [i]), it's going to end up as a schwa; if that schwa is more /I/ like, some of y'all northerners might have been fooled. That is, it may simply be vowel reduction with regional quality variation. On the other hand, that variation may have led to "real" /I/ pronunciations (although that would seem to require some degree of stress). (I just noticed I called the phoneme rather than the phone "real." Heaven help me!) Of course, "medical -itis" (the spelling only) may also play a role here. dInIs (who always notes the more [I]-like pronunciation of his last syllable, even when unstressed, the farther south he goes) PS: I'm just jerkin y'all around by putting the apostrophe in different places in ya'll. Y'all don't need to write in about it no more. >Alice: > >> For what it's worth, I've seen the spelling "diabetis" fairly >> regularly from certain posters on the usenet diabetes support groups. >> I've never understood where this came from, as it's certainly not >> something I've noticed here in the northeast. One particular poster, >> who used to use this spelling *a lot* is a good enough writer that >> the "mis-spelling" really stood out. She's lived in Alaska most of >> her adult life, but, if I remember the autobiographical details she's >> posted correctly, she grew up in Michigan (I'm not sure where). > >This gets weirder. I've never seen the *spelling* "diabetis", just the >pronunciation. But then, I may not be reading the right kind of literature. >Anne G -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From dagny at EXECPC.COM Wed Dec 12 18:48:53 2001 From: dagny at EXECPC.COM (Amy L. Hayden) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:48:53 -0600 Subject: diabetes Message-ID: On the newscasts here in the Chicago area, it's almost always pronounced -tis, which has always struck me as odd (I grew up near Austin, Texas, where it was -tes). The nurses at my doctor's office both say -tis, but my doctor says -tes (she is from the South). Could it be related to north vs. south? Amy From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Wed Dec 12 19:01:50 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:01:50 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <3C17A695.6D91123@execpc.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Amy L. Hayden wrote: >On the newscasts here in the Chicago area, it's almost always pronounced -tis, As in rhymes with "fleece"? Bethany From jeb4c4 at MIZZOU.EDU Wed Dec 12 19:21:57 2001 From: jeb4c4 at MIZZOU.EDU (Jennifer Beckman) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:21:57 -0600 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <003901c18337$27a5c5e0$77fcfd3f@u5a9c9> Message-ID: Growing up in Chicago, IL and Omaha, NE, I heard "-tis" (as well as "-teez"), although "-tis" was always my own preferred pronunciation. "Arthur-itis" is new to me, however. Jennifer Beckman From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Dec 12 20:28:44 2001 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:28:44 -0600 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The discussion is proceeding as if the variant under discussion is just a vowel, but as DInIs points out, stress also appears to be a variable here. It appears that in American English we tend not to have the lax vowel if that syllable has secondary/tertiary stress. Or maybe it's strong syllable versus weak syllable. Anyway, this is probably a lexical rather than phonological thing. Are there any other disease names that manifest this variation? I can't think of any. DMLance > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:14:12 -0500 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: diabetes > > Ya'll should remember that some schwa-like sounds are more [I] like > in southern speech. If one does not give some stress to the last > syllable (permitting [i]), it's going to end up as a schwa; if that > schwa is more /I/ like, some of y'all northerners might have been > fooled. That is, it may simply be vowel reduction with regional > quality variation. > > On the other hand, that variation may have led to "real" /I/ > pronunciations (although that would seem to require some degree of > stress). (I just noticed I called the phoneme rather than the phone > "real." Heaven help me!) > > Of course, "medical -itis" (the spelling only) may also play a role here. > > dInIs (who always notes the more [I]-like pronunciation of his last > syllable, even when unstressed, the farther south he goes) > > PS: I'm just jerkin y'all around by putting the apostrophe in > different places in ya'll. Y'all don't need to write in about it no > more. > > > >> Alice: >> >>> For what it's worth, I've seen the spelling "diabetis" fairly >>> regularly from certain posters on the usenet diabetes support groups. >>> I've never understood where this came from, as it's certainly not >>> something I've noticed here in the northeast. One particular poster, >>> who used to use this spelling *a lot* is a good enough writer that >>> the "mis-spelling" really stood out. She's lived in Alaska most of >>> her adult life, but, if I remember the autobiographical details she's >>> posted correctly, she grew up in Michigan (I'm not sure where). >> >> This gets weirder. I've never seen the *spelling* "diabetis", just the >> pronunciation. But then, I may not be reading the right kind of literature. >> Anne G > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Department of Linguistics and Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > preston at pilot.msu.edu > Office: (517)353-0740 > Fax: (517)432-2736 > From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Dec 12 20:33:06 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:33:06 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I take back some of my stress-rlaated vowel-quality ramblings. I was thinking only of the schwa versus [I] pronunciation, but some people have pointed out (and I have certainly heard) an [i] pronunciation but with a following voiced consonant. I wonder now (and this is surely lexical) if you can get [i] without a voiced consonant? - [-is]. I think I have never heard it. dInIs >The discussion is proceeding as if the variant under discussion is just a >vowel, but as DInIs points out, stress also appears to be a variable here. >It appears that in American English we tend not to have the lax vowel if >that syllable has secondary/tertiary stress. Or maybe it's strong syllable >versus weak syllable. Anyway, this is probably a lexical rather than >phonological thing. Are there any other disease names that manifest this >variation? I can't think of any. >DMLance > >> From: "Dennis R. Preston" >> Reply-To: American Dialect Society >> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:14:12 -0500 >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: diabetes >> >> Ya'll should remember that some schwa-like sounds are more [I] like >> in southern speech. If one does not give some stress to the last >> syllable (permitting [i]), it's going to end up as a schwa; if that >> schwa is more /I/ like, some of y'all northerners might have been >> fooled. That is, it may simply be vowel reduction with regional >> quality variation. >> >> On the other hand, that variation may have led to "real" /I/ >> pronunciations (although that would seem to require some degree of >> stress). (I just noticed I called the phoneme rather than the phone >> "real." Heaven help me!) >> >> Of course, "medical -itis" (the spelling only) may also play a role here. >> >> dInIs (who always notes the more [I]-like pronunciation of his last >> syllable, even when unstressed, the farther south he goes) >> >> PS: I'm just jerkin y'all around by putting the apostrophe in >> different places in ya'll. Y'all don't need to write in about it no >> more. >> >> >> >>> Alice: >>> >>>> For what it's worth, I've seen the spelling "diabetis" fairly >>>> regularly from certain posters on the usenet diabetes support groups. >>>> I've never understood where this came from, as it's certainly not >>>> something I've noticed here in the northeast. One particular poster, >>>> who used to use this spelling *a lot* is a good enough writer that >>>> the "mis-spelling" really stood out. She's lived in Alaska most of >>>> her adult life, but, if I remember the autobiographical details she's >>>> posted correctly, she grew up in Michigan (I'm not sure where). >>> >>> This gets weirder. I've never seen the *spelling* "diabetis", just the >>> pronunciation. But then, I may not be reading the right kind of >>>literature. >>> Anne G >> >> -- >> Dennis R. Preston >> Department of Linguistics and Languages >> Michigan State University >> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA >> preston at pilot.msu.edu >> Office: (517)353-0740 >> Fax: (517)432-2736 >> -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Dalecoye at AOL.COM Wed Dec 12 20:52:48 2001 From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:52:48 EST Subject: diabetes Message-ID: Seems like some other Greek words would have followed suit if were a phonological thing--Archimedes-- my brain is mush from too many student papers, someone else supply the rest. Dale Coye The College of NJ From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Dec 12 21:01:33 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:01:33 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Well, I take back some of my stress-rlaated vowel-quality ramblings. >I was thinking only of the schwa versus [I] pronunciation, but some >people have pointed out (and I have certainly heard) an [i] >pronunciation but with a following voiced consonant. I wonder now >(and this is surely lexical) if you can get [i] without a voiced >consonant? - [-is]. I think I have never heard it. Well, this New Yorker certainly has /i/ (of roughly the same quality) in both the ultimate and penultimate syllables of "diabetes". It's (roughly) "beady" with an /s/ on the end. My doctor, who certainly *sounds* like a native of the New Haven area, pronounces it the same way. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Wed Dec 12 21:20:31 2001 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:20:31 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Donald M Lance wrote: > The discussion is proceeding as if the variant under discussion is just a > vowel, but as DInIs points out, stress also appears to be a variable here. I haven't read everyone's replies yet, but the variation is not just in the vowel, but also in the voicing on the final sibilant: voiceless -tis vs. voiced -teez. I agree that -itis words may be playing a role and, as you say further below, that it's probably lexical. > It appears that in American English we tend not to have the lax vowel if > that syllable has secondary/tertiary stress. Or maybe it's strong syllable > versus weak syllable. Anyway, this is probably a lexical rather than > phonological thing. Are there any other disease names that manifest this > variation? I can't think of any. > DMLance > > > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:14:12 -0500 > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: diabetes > > > > Ya'll should remember that some schwa-like sounds are more [I] like > > in southern speech. If one does not give some stress to the last > > syllable (permitting [i]), it's going to end up as a schwa; if that > > schwa is more /I/ like, some of y'all northerners might have been > > fooled. That is, it may simply be vowel reduction with regional > > quality variation. > > > > On the other hand, that variation may have led to "real" /I/ > > pronunciations (although that would seem to require some degree of > > stress). (I just noticed I called the phoneme rather than the phone > > "real." Heaven help me!) > > > > Of course, "medical -itis" (the spelling only) may also play a role here. > > > > dInIs (who always notes the more [I]-like pronunciation of his last > > syllable, even when unstressed, the farther south he goes) > > > > PS: I'm just jerkin y'all around by putting the apostrophe in > > different places in ya'll. Y'all don't need to write in about it no > > more. > > > > > > > >> Alice: > >> > >>> For what it's worth, I've seen the spelling "diabetis" fairly > >>> regularly from certain posters on the usenet diabetes support groups. > >>> I've never understood where this came from, as it's certainly not > >>> something I've noticed here in the northeast. One particular poster, > >>> who used to use this spelling *a lot* is a good enough writer that > >>> the "mis-spelling" really stood out. She's lived in Alaska most of > >>> her adult life, but, if I remember the autobiographical details she's > >>> posted correctly, she grew up in Michigan (I'm not sure where). > >> > >> This gets weirder. I've never seen the *spelling* "diabetis", just the > >> pronunciation. But then, I may not be reading the right kind of literature. > >> Anne G > > > > -- > > Dennis R. Preston > > Department of Linguistics and Languages > > Michigan State University > > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > > preston at pilot.msu.edu > > Office: (517)353-0740 > > Fax: (517)432-2736 > > > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Dec 12 21:33:00 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:33:00 -0800 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been assuming that messages citing spelled -tes vs. -tis variations are referring to the pronunciations [iz] and [@s], respectively, rather than [@s] and [Is]. I would expect an [@s] vs. [Is] variation to be north/south regional, but the question seems to be whether it's regional to use [iz] on the one hand or [@s]~[Is] on the other. As an additional bit of evidence that something other than regionality is at work in the [iz] variant, I recall the first time I ever saw the word written, sometime during my childhood. I was surprised to discover that I had been "mispronouncing" it all this time (as something analogous to the many -itis diseases), so, figuring that I must simply have misunderstood the word when grownups said it, I adopted the spelling pronunciation with [iz]. (I might even say, with the greatest of [iz]--though I'm not sure I use it consistently when I'm not thinking about it.) Peter Mc. --On Wednesday, December 12, 2001 1:14 PM -0500 "Dennis R. Preston" wrote: > Ya'll should remember that some schwa-like sounds are more [I] like > in southern speech. If one does not give some stress to the last > syllable (permitting [i]), it's going to end up as a schwa; if that > schwa is more /I/ like, some of y'all northerners might have been > fooled. That is, it may simply be vowel reduction with regional > quality variation. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From douglas at NB.NET Wed Dec 12 21:40:07 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:40:07 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The full name of the disease usually called "diabetes" is of course "diabetes mellitus". We "know" instinctively or otherwise that the inflectional suffixes must match -- e.g., Circus Maximus, Canis familiaris, anorexia nervosa, Costa Mesa, labia majora, hocus pocus. So it must be "diabetus mellitus". Maybe a hypercorrection of sorts. -- Doug Wilson From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Dec 12 21:54:43 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:54:43 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011212162926.024fb190@nb.net> Message-ID: Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >The full name of the disease usually called "diabetes" is of course >"diabetes mellitus". We "know" instinctively or otherwise that the >inflectional suffixes must match -- e.g., Circus Maximus, Canis familiaris, >anorexia nervosa, Costa Mesa, labia majora, hocus pocus. So it must be >"diabetus mellitus". Maybe a hypercorrection of sorts. > Before I read to the end of the above, I thought you were talking about hypercorrection in the penult, and assuming something like "diab-/ai/-tis mell-/ai/-tus". I was fully prepared to scream out load. -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Dec 12 22:20:56 2001 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:20:56 -0600 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, it gets curiouser and curiouser. -- Doug Wilson wrote: >The full name of the disease usually called "diabetes" is of course >"diabetes mellitus". We "know" instinctively or otherwise that the >inflectional suffixes must match -- e.g., Circus Maximus, Canis familiaris, >anorexia nervosa, Costa Mesa, labia majora, hocus pocus. So it must be >"diabetus mellitus". Maybe a hypercorrection of sorts. So the voiceless -s in -itis also is lexical. The schwa pronunciation doesn't have to derive from hypercorrection, because (as others have mentioned) -i- spellings in unstressed syllables may range (perhaps regionally) from [I] to barred-i to schwa, as in Missouri. Of course, in 20th century American English, the open-syllable -i/-y/-ie is the tense /i/. Since these variants are "normal," then spelling becomes an issue for those who "didn't have phonics." [n.b.: quotation marks = irony here] If hypercorrection comes into play, it would be in references to one diabetee. DMLance > From: "Dennis R. Preston" > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:33:06 -0500 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: diabetes > > Well, I take back some of my stress-rlaated vowel-quality ramblings. > I was thinking only of the schwa versus [I] pronunciation, but some > people have pointed out (and I have certainly heard) an [i] > pronunciation but with a following voiced consonant. I wonder now > (and this is surely lexical) if you can get [i] without a voiced > consonant? - [-is]. I think I have never heard it. > > dInIs > >> The discussion is proceeding as if the variant under discussion is just a >> vowel, but as DInIs points out, stress also appears to be a variable here. >> It appears that in American English we tend not to have the lax vowel if >> that syllable has secondary/tertiary stress. Or maybe it's strong syllable >> versus weak syllable. Anyway, this is probably a lexical rather than >> phonological thing. Are there any other disease names that manifest this >> variation? I can't think of any. >> DMLance >> >>> From: "Dennis R. Preston" >>> Reply-To: American Dialect Society >>> Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:14:12 -0500 >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >>> Subject: Re: diabetes >>> >>> Ya'll should remember that some schwa-like sounds are more [I] like >>> in southern speech. If one does not give some stress to the last >>> syllable (permitting [i]), it's going to end up as a schwa; if that >>> schwa is more /I/ like, some of y'all northerners might have been >>> fooled. That is, it may simply be vowel reduction with regional >>> quality variation. >>> >>> On the other hand, that variation may have led to "real" /I/ >>> pronunciations (although that would seem to require some degree of >>> stress). (I just noticed I called the phoneme rather than the phone >>> "real." Heaven help me!) >>> >>> Of course, "medical -itis" (the spelling only) may also play a role here. >>> >>> dInIs (who always notes the more [I]-like pronunciation of his last >>> syllable, even when unstressed, the farther south he goes) >>> >>> PS: I'm just jerkin y'all around by putting the apostrophe in >>> different places in ya'll. Y'all don't need to write in about it no >>> more. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Alice: >>>> >>>>> For what it's worth, I've seen the spelling "diabetis" fairly >>>>> regularly from certain posters on the usenet diabetes support groups. >>>>> I've never understood where this came from, as it's certainly not >>>>> something I've noticed here in the northeast. One particular poster, >>>>> who used to use this spelling *a lot* is a good enough writer that >>>>> the "mis-spelling" really stood out. She's lived in Alaska most of >>>>> her adult life, but, if I remember the autobiographical details she's >>>>> posted correctly, she grew up in Michigan (I'm not sure where). >>>> >>>> This gets weirder. I've never seen the *spelling* "diabetis", just the >>>> pronunciation. But then, I may not be reading the right kind of >>>> literature. >>>> Anne G >>> >>> -- >>> Dennis R. Preston >>> Department of Linguistics and Languages >>> Michigan State University >>> East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA >>> preston at pilot.msu.edu >>> Office: (517)353-0740 >>> Fax: (517)432-2736 >>> > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Department of Linguistics and Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > preston at pilot.msu.edu > Office: (517)353-0740 > Fax: (517)432-2736 > From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Dec 12 22:44:32 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:44:32 -0800 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This suggests all sorts of possibilities for the enrichment of our impoverished language. If lawyers and judges can talk about the "de-fen-DANT," why shouldn't doctors start referring to a patient suffering from this disease* as the "diabee-TEE"? PMc. * (I.e., hypercorrection) :) --On Wednesday, December 12, 2001 4:20 PM -0600 Donald M Lance wrote: > If hypercorrection comes into play, it would be in references to one > diabetee. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Wed Dec 12 22:44:30 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:44:30 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011212131926.009fc300@pop.mizzou.edu> Message-ID: This Minnesotan always says "-tis" [Is] too. On "arthuritis," very common; the epenthetic vowel is not just Southern. How about "athelete/atheletic"? At 01:21 PM 12/12/01 -0600, you wrote: >Growing up in Chicago, IL and Omaha, NE, I heard "-tis" (as well as >"-teez"), although "-tis" was always my own preferred >pronunciation. "Arthur-itis" is new to me, however. > >Jennifer Beckman _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Wed Dec 12 22:57:54 2001 From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:57:54 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Phrase inquiry: "Spanish news" Message-ID: >DARE doesn't have anything on "Spanish news." Can anyone help? >I have received a query concerning a phrase in Tennessee Williams' play "Cat >on a Hot Tin Roof". About six pages into Act One, Maggie/Margaret has a >line which reads "But I have a piece of Spanish news for Gooper." A faculty >member has asked about the origin and meaning of that phrase "Spanish news". >Thus far all our inquiries have failed. Is this a phrase which has come to >the attention of DARE? Can you make any recommendations on how to pursue >the inquiry further? I would be grateful for any assistance which you could >provide. > >John S. Walz >Middle/Upper School Librarian >Kent Place School >Summit, NJ 07901 > >walzj at kentplace.org >908-273-0900 ext. 295 From dagny at EXECPC.COM Wed Dec 12 22:36:05 2001 From: dagny at EXECPC.COM (Amy L. Hayden) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:36:05 -0600 Subject: diabetes Message-ID: > >On the newscasts here in the Chicago area, it's almost always pronounced -tis, > > As in rhymes with "fleece"? No, as in rhymes with "this". Amy From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Thu Dec 13 01:19:21 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:19:21 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <3C17DBD5.B526C553@execpc.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Amy L. Hayden wrote: >> >On the newscasts here in the Chicago area, it's almost always pronounced -tis, >> >> As in rhymes with "fleece"? > >No, as in rhymes with "this". > Oh, as is -/tIs/. Thanks. Bethany From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 13 01:34:27 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:34:27 EST Subject: Smart Border Message-ID: SMART BORDER--The U.S. and Canada signed a "smart border" agreement today. Another "smart" to go with smart cards, smart clothes...I'm smarting. DIRTY BOMB--I've been seeing this a lot. FRATRICIDE--When friendly fire occurs. CNN did a story on this a few days ago. MUJAHIDEEN--William Safire did this last Sunday. What does everything think about the hit in MOA-Mich. books? Search by "mujah*" for the suffix. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 13 02:08:37 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:08:37 EST Subject: TEXAS AND MEXICO (1888); Ranch (1836) Message-ID: OFF TOPIC: A few days ago, I didn't get a dialtone. So I call up MCI Service, and it's closed between 10 pm-7 am (Joey's gotta sleep). So I call back then, and they say unplug everything, wait 20 minutes, and plug everything in again. So I do that, and nothing happens. So I call again, and they check it out, and it's MCI's problem after all, and I'm promised phone service by 8 pm Wednesday. But I don't have phone service, so I gotta pay this internet cafe at 57th and 2nd... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- JOURNALISTS LETTERS DESCRIPTIVE OF TEXAS AND MEXICO. EDITED BY ROBERT H. THOMAS FARMERS' FRIEND PRINT Mechanicburg, Pa. 1888 (Interesting for chili-con-carne--ed.) Pg. 7 (INTRODUCTION): There will also be contradictiory opinions, for each pen tells its own story as it saw with its own eyes. One observer will insist that in making _Tortillas_ the native spits upon his hands, another will distinctly refute this. Pg. 18: The _chile-non-carne_, or meat with pepper, was like a section of sheol, served up _a la_ Dante. The rest of the supper was of similar character. When the visitors finished the novel repast they drank a dozen quarts of water to cool their parched tongues. Everything the Mexican eats is peppery. He is not satisfied with ordinary condiments, but demands red pepper galore. The _tamallas_ are not as bad as the other food. They are made out of what nobody knows done up in a cornshuck. The _tortilla_ is a variety of griddle-cake, composed of ashes and a little meal. Pg. 39: Tortilla is a kind of bread, made of beaten or ground corn soaked in alkaline water, well seasoned with pepper, baked. In making them the women mould the dough into cakes, and to prevent its sticking, _spit on their_ hands. Pulque is a beer manufactured from the pulque or maguey plant. Pg. 55: Both speaker pronounced "ideas" "ide-ars," reminding us of Col. Moore's insistance on the pronunciation of "yeast" as "yest" in the Baker trial. Pg. 56: The centres of the plaza or public squares are well taken up at night by Mexican venders of chiliconcarne and tamales. Chili-con-carne is made of bits of boiled beef and red pepper seemingly in equal proportions, and tamales consist of corn meal wrapped in husks and boiled. Neither is a favorite dish with us, but the Texans and Mexicans, who want something hot, consider the stands great conveniences, and in the glare of the smoking torches patronize them all night long. The coming of the dawn is the signal for the chiliconcarne merchants to reload their wagons and pull out for home, to repeat the program next night and so on. Pg. 75: There (sic) of the principal articles of food are tortillas, tamales and chili-con-carne. These, with fruits, form the staple diet of the masses. The tortilla is made from corn which has been soaked in lime water until it is softened and freed from the husks. The corn is then mashed quite fine on a kind of stone tray, by means of a smaller stone, pressed into a thin cake with the hands, and baked on an open pottery vessel over a small charcoal fire. The chili-con-carne is meat of various kinds chopped up into hash, mixed with almost or quite an equal quantity of red pepper, and stewed together. For the tamales, corn is mashed up the same as for tortillas, a roll of it is made about one inch in diameter, with a small quantity of meat and pepper through the center; the whole is then wrapped in a shuck and boiled for several hours. A hungry man can make a very satisfying meal on tamales. We have eaten lots of things in United States hotels and boarding houses not nearly so palatable. Pg. 91: History does not relate what became of the intelligent "pee-wee" bird, but I dare say the Mexicans made "chilli-con-carne" of it before they followed the eagle.... Pg. 149: MEXICAN VOCABULARY. Mexico--Me-yhi-co. (...) Tortilla--Tor-tee-yo,...Small cake made of corn. (...) Mesdale (sic)--Mes-cal-e,...Mexican whisky. Pulque--Pool-kah,...Drink. Tamales--Ta-mah-lees,...Mexican dish. Chili-con-carne--Chil-i-co-car-ne,...Pepper with meat. (...) Friyoles--Fri-yo-las,...Red beans. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- RANCH (1836) OED's 1831 "ranch" citation states that it's probably closer to another sense of the word. If so, then this is the earliest "ranch" of this meaning. THREE YEARS IN TEXAS by DR. JOSEPH E. FIELD Greenfield, Mass. JUSTIN JONES 1836 Pg. 25: A first, second and third messenger was sent to the Mission, without bringing any information from our friends, except the last, who brought the news of their disaster, having obtained it at a _ranch_, (a Mexican farm.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 13 06:24:53 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:24:53 EST Subject: 173 Pre-Prohibition Cocktails (1917; 2001) Message-ID: 173 PRE-PROHIBITION COCKTAILS By Tom Bullock, 1917 Howling at the Moon Press (www.howling1.com), Jenks, OK 112 pages, paperback, $14.95 2001 I discussed this book with Andy Smith at lunch. The 1917 cocktails are here, but much 2001 drink and photo padding is added. It's very difficult to tell one from the other, and certainly impossible to cite a 1917 page number (from Bullock's THE IDEAL BARTENDER). "Behind Tom Bullock's Bar," the new padding on pages 83-103, explains (incompletely and often incorrectly) such things as "cocktail." The drink names offer no real surprises. A "Black Cow" (pg. 27) of cream and sarsaparilla is perhaps the only useful item. I was looking for "Mojito" and "Cuba Libre" in preparation for my Cuba trip, but they're not here. Thanks to Jesse Sheidlower, I paid a ridiculous amount for POKER, SMOKE AND OTHER THINGS (1907), and I'll see if they're in that book. "Cuba Libre" from Basil Woon's WHEN IT'S _COCKTAIL TIME_ IN CUBA (1928) is posted in the archives. There's also this "Cuba libra," from TRAVEL magazine, March 1937, pg. 32, col. 3 (I was looking for Key Lime Pie in this Key West article): If you speak nicely to them, and perhaps suggest a _Cuba libra_ (Key West's most popular drink), they (Pg. 33, Col. 1--ed.) will entertain you by talking about their city or by dancing. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 13 07:05:16 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 02:05:16 EST Subject: Das Fleischerhandwerf (1842); Handling the Hog (1910) Message-ID: Two meaty gems now hidden away in the NYPL annex. -------------------------------------------------------- DAS FLEISCHERHANDWERF by G. P. F. Thon Weimar, 1842 This is an interesting book that Gerald Cohen might want to inter-library loan and translate for COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY. I find the old German typeface difficult to read. Pg. 132: _Bratwurste nach englischer Ranier._ (OED has an incredibly late 1911 for "Bratwurst"--ed.) _Frankfurter geraucherte Bratwurste._ Pg. 133: _Wiener Wurstchen._ -------------------------------------------------------- HANDLING THE HOG FROM START OT FINISH by "Westerner" (John P. Donovan--ed.) Butchers Advocate Co., NY 1910 (Meatpacking lingo is put in quotation marks throughout the book--ed.) Pg. 3: ...not to allow his pickle in the vat to get "ropy" or sour".... Pg. 13: The intestines which are left are known as the "black guts" and are cut by machine, or hashed, and washed thoroughly. Pg. 23: Some of the uninitiated may wonder what "fresh hogs" are. They are hogs just driven from the "yards" and killed right away without resting, and supposed by many to be in such a feverish condition that the meat would not come out of cure "sweet." Pg. 28: The shoulder may be made into a cala, picnic, a Boston shoulder, a New York shoulder, a square or three-rib shoulder or a regular shoulder. Pg. 31: "English short rib"..."Cumberland middles." Pg. 33: The hams, when chopped off, or, in some cases, sawed off, are dropped from the trimming table on the cutting floor by means of chutes that are known as the "green meat chutes"; in close proximity to these chutes is the "green meat" inspector, who handles every ham and inspects it, and then throws it into the box to which it belongs. Pg. 53: There is an old adage, the origin of which I do not know, "Where there's muck, there's luck," and certainly a great number of packinghouse (Pg. 54--ed.) men seem to place implicit belief in it, and in so doing have brought opprobrium on an industry, that can be carried out as cleanly as any line of business in comparison. Pg. 98: ...two lifts being made in this case, the first from the floor to the top of an old tierce known as a "dolly" and then from there to the pile on top of the second row. (See ADS-L archives for "dolly," also on page 102--ed.) From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Dec 13 13:31:08 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:31:08 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bethany, It was this which led me to speculate that people were simply (sic) hearing the [I]-like (principally) southern version of schwa in such environments. I discovered later that people were also interested in an [i] pronunciation and that the [I]-like ones also extended beyond southern areas (although never, so far as has been established in the data I have seen on the list so far, in a completely unstressed position, as would be the case in southern speech). dInIs >On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Amy L. Hayden wrote: > >>> >On the newscasts here in the Chicago area, it's almost always >pronounced -tis, >>> >>> As in rhymes with "fleece"? >> >>No, as in rhymes with "this". >> >Oh, as is -/tIs/. Thanks. > >Bethany -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM Thu Dec 13 15:12:40 2001 From: Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:12:40 -0500 Subject: chili-non-carne? Message-ID: The indefatigable and iron-virtual-stomached Barry quotes: >>> JOURNALISTS LETTERS DESCRIPTIVE OF TEXAS AND MEXICO. EDITED BY ROBERT H. THOMAS FARMERS' FRIEND PRINT Mechanicburg, Pa. 1888 [...] Pg. 18: The _chile-non-carne_, or meat with pepper, <<< Hermes help us! I already wince at things like "chili con carne with [or without] meat"... Or is that "non" a typo for "con", Barry? And while we're at it, ... oh, never mind. I was about to comment on the multiple spellings, till I realized that each was by a different author (Introduction). Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist [but for how long?] Dragon Systems, a Lernout & HauspieXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ScanSoft company speech recognition 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02460, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Dec 13 15:46:38 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:46:38 EST Subject: chili-non-carne? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/13/2001 10:24:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM writes: > JOURNALISTS LETTERS > DESCRIPTIVE OF > TEXAS AND MEXICO. > EDITED BY > ROBERT H. THOMAS > FARMERS' FRIEND PRINT > Mechanicburg, Pa. > 1888 > > [...] > > Pg. 18: > The _chile-non-carne_, or meat with pepper, > <<< > > Hermes help us! I already wince at things like "chili con carne with [or > without] meat"... Or is that "non" a typo for "con", Barry? The Atlantic City Press commented on the fact that the menu at a local prison included chile "con" carne... What interests me in Barry's cite is not the obvious typo of "non" for "con" but the fact that an 1888 book would spell the name of the dish as "chile" rather than "chili". (In Spanish "chili" and "chile" are NOT homonyms. The first has a final vowel more or less as in English "chilly" but the second has a final vowel resembling that of English "Sunday/sundae".) I have found two 19th century sources that refer to the South American country as "Chili" (and none that use "Chile"). Does anyone have enough data to say whether these were the usual spellings in 19th Century American English or were happenstance? - Jim Landau P.S. "Cuba libra" is part of the Zodiac as seen from Havana? I had thought that the name "Cube Libre" for the drink had gone out of fashion when Castro took over in Cuba, but an Ecuadorian coworker confirms that Barry Popik is correct that "Cuba Libre" (both the drink and that name for it) are quite popular in Ecuador. From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Thu Dec 13 16:25:27 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:25:27 -0800 Subject: Das Fleischerhandwerf (1842); Handling the Hog (1910) In-Reply-To: <26.1ff2f92f.2949ad2d@aol.com> Message-ID: If he wants to request it, he should use the title Das Fleischerhandwerk. (The k in Fraktur looks like the f in other fonts.) PMc --On Thursday, December 13, 2001 2:05 AM +0000 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > DAS FLEISCHERHANDWERF > by G. P. F. Thon > Weimar, 1842 > > This is an interesting book that Gerald Cohen might want to > inter-library loan and translate for COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY. I find > the old German typeface difficult to read. **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Thu Dec 13 16:49:44 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 11:49:44 -0500 Subject: diabetes Message-ID: dInIs wrote: > the [I]-like ones also extended beyond southern areas< I've lived in Southern areas most of my life and the /day@'bi,diz/ pron. is what I would consider normal. yes, there is a secondary stress on the last syllable to support that vowel. I think I would consider a /-dIs/ pron. to be new/fancy/from somewhere else. Ellen Ellen Johnson Assistant Professor of Linguistics Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing Berry College, Box 350 Mt. Berry, GA 30149 706-368-5638 http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ ejohnson at berry.edu From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Thu Dec 13 17:02:37 2001 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:02:37 -0500 Subject: chili-non-carne? In-Reply-To: <12d.93310fc.294a275e@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, James A. Landau wrote: > I have found two 19th century sources that refer to the South American > country as "Chili" (and none that use "Chile"). Does anyone have enough data > to say whether these were the usual spellings in 19th Century American > English or were happenstance? > If it was, it was true in other non-Spanish languages also; cp. Heinrich von Kleist's novella "Das Erdbeben in Chili" ("The Earthquake in Chile"), early 19th-century. Ben From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 13 17:18:20 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:18:20 EST Subject: chili-non-carne? Message-ID: OFF TOPIC: My phone service is back! Lordy! CHILI-NON-CARNE: That's how it was. I didn't know if it was a typo or a joke...It was also "Cuba libra," which makes it easy to order a drink and ask "What's your sign?" On page 36 of JOURNALISTS' LETTERS (1888) was this poem, which Fred Shapiro has probably dated: "If you ever go to France, Be sure to learn the Lingo; If you do like me, You'll repent, by jingo." -------------------------------------------------------- ST. LOUIS' ISLE, OR TEXIANA by Charles Hooton Simmonds and Ward, London 1847 Pg. 129: *This is the usual method of drinking in Texas and the Southern States,--spirits first and water afterward. Pg. 24: "acclimated"* *This word is not in the dictionaries; but as it is both useful and expressive of its meaning (_accustomed to the climate_), I have not hesitated to adopt it. (OED has one earlier cite--ed.) Pg. 166: The phrase "people of colour" is peculiarly apt in this place (New Orleans--ed.), as a perfect black, an unmitigated "nigger," is somewhat of a rarity. Pg. 170: ..."chicken fixen"... From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Dec 13 18:43:59 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:43:59 -0800 Subject: Das Fleischerhandwerf (1842); Handling the Hog (1910) In-Reply-To: <26.1ff2f92f.2949ad2d@aol.com> Message-ID: > > Pg. 132: > _Bratwurste nach englischer Ranier._ > (OED has an incredibly late 1911 for "Bratwurst"--ed.) Most likely "englischer Manier". Equals "Bangers"? allen maberry at u.washington.edu From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Thu Dec 13 19:44:54 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 13:44:54 -0600 Subject: diabetes Message-ID: >Seems like some other Greek words would have followed suit if were a >phonological thing--Archimedes-- my brain is mush from too many student >papers, someone else supply the rest. > >Dale Coye As with Diomedes, or with the plurals of words like 'pericope'. The medical term diabetes seems to be directly inherited from Greek via Latin (meaning 'siphon', 'straddle'). The ancient physicians certainly knew of it. The 'bee-tease' pronunciation would seem to be the learned one. Has anyone mentioned yet that 'mellitus' does not follow the -itis pattern, but rather, stresses the first syllable and rhymes the last with 'bus'. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 13 20:23:30 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 15:23:30 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>Seems like some other Greek words would have followed suit if were a >>phonological thing--Archimedes-- my brain is mush from too many student >>papers, someone else supply the rest. >> >>Dale Coye > >As with Diomedes, or with the plurals of words like 'pericope'. > >The medical term diabetes seems to be directly inherited from Greek via >Latin (meaning 'siphon', 'straddle'). The ancient physicians certainly knew >of it. The 'bee-tease' pronunciation would seem to be the learned one. > >Has anyone mentioned yet that 'mellitus' does not follow the -itis pattern, >but rather, stresses the first syllable and rhymes the last with 'bus'. I think that's the way it 'should' be: /'mEl at tVs/ or so. Actually it is sometimes pronounced /mE'lait at s/ as if it were "-itis". Same with "tinnitus" (ringing in the ears). "Pruritus" (itch) seems like it SHOULD be "-itis", and thus it is USUALLY pronounced "prU'rait at s/, even by MD's (I think). Other things which don't seem to be 'diseases' ("habitus", "crepitus", "coitus", etc.) have first-syllable stress. It depends on how many MD's and others 'mispronounce' each one over the course of time, I suppose. Our "health care professionals" are of course not generally "classical scholars". (Like some other blue-collar types, I ignore the "distinction" between unstressed /I/ and /@/ [schwa] usually.) -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 13 21:19:20 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 16:19:20 EST Subject: "Romaine salad" at Tia Juana (1935); OUP Message-ID: "ROMAINE SALAD" AT TIA JUANA From SUNSET magazine, September 1935, pg. 23, col. 1: _SAN DIEGO SPECIAL GARLIC BREAD_ (Illustrated on this page) I know that there are many types of so-called garlic breads, but this one is better tasting than any of the others, in my estimation. It is the kind they always serve with romaine salad at a certain cafe in Tia Juana (Caesar's? With Caesar Salad?--ed). It is delicious with any spaghetti dish or meat casserole and a green salad. Take a loaf of French bread, split it length-wise, and cut each half in big pieces, being careful not to cut all the way through the outer crust. Spread the cut surface with softened butter, and be sure to spread butter between the slices, too. Peel several cloves of garlic, and place one whole clove of it between each two slices. Sprinkle the loaf lightly with salt, then very generously with grated Parmesan cheese, and lastly sprinkle it generously with paprika. Place in a hot oven for 15 minutes (in a covered dish if you don't like it crisp). After removing from the oven, take out the garlic before serving.--Mrs. L. M. M., San DIego, California. -------------------------------------------------------- OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD (2004) No drink. Maybe I can sneak in an "ice cream soda" with the ice cream. Also, the date is now 2004 instead of 2003. The press misreported the major contract signings on Wednesday, so I'll get it straight: Jason Giambi (NY YANKEES; to play a kid's game) --119 million dollars. Katie Coric (NBC-tv; for breakfast chat) --65 million dollars. Barry Popik (OUP; trace the origins of every food on the face of the earth) --free lunch. From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Thu Dec 13 22:42:48 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:42:48 -0500 Subject: idioms Message-ID: I couldn't resist passing this along. if Jesse could write a whole book about the phrses "The F-Word" appears in, maybe one of us will take up this area of the vocabulary next. Ellen WHO IS JACK SCHITT??? The lineage is finally revealed. Many people are at a loss for a response when someone says "You don't know Jack Schitt!" Read on and you'll be able to handle the situation intelligently. Jack is the only son of Awe Schitt and O. Schitt. Awe Schitt, the fertilizer magnate, married O. Schitt, a partner of Kneedeep & Schitt, Inc. Jack Schitt married Noe Schitt, and the deeply religious couple begat 6 children: Holie Schitt, Fulla Schitt, Giva Schitt, Bull Schitt, and the twins, Deap Schitt and Dip Schitt. Against her parents' wishes, Deap Schitt married Dumb Schitt, a high school dropout. After 15 years of marriage, Jack & Noe Schitt divorced. Noe Schitt later married a Mr. Sherlock, and out of devotion to her children, decided to hyphenate her last name, and became Noe Schitt-Sherlock. Dip Schitt married a woman named Loda Dung, who became Loda Schitt. The couple produced a nervous son, Chicken Schitt. Fulla Schitt and Giva Schitt, inseparable throughout childhood subsequently married the Happens brothers. The local newspaper announced the Schitt-Happens wedding, which was quite an event. The Schitt-Happens children were Dawg, Byrd, and Hoarse. Bull Schitt, the prodigal son, left home to tour the world. He returned from his travels with his Italian bride, Piza Schitt. So, NOW if someone says "You don't know Jack Schitt," you can beg to differ. You not only know Jack Schitt, but the entire Schitt list! From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 14 00:31:35 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 19:31:35 EST Subject: John Mosetta (1937); Ranch Home (1938) Message-ID: JOHN MOSETTA I had previously posted a "Johnny Marazetti" recipe from the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE, 22 January 1939, as well as other variations on the name of this Ohio dish. From SUNSET magazine, June 1937, pg. 49, col. 2: _Calling_ _John Mosetta_ Mrs. J. S. Wells of Hermosa Beach, Calif., sings the praise of John Mosetta, which is the strange name of a grand dish to serve to a big crowd. It goes especially well after a swim in the surf. To make it you will need: 2 pounds of pork steak (best quality) 10 or 12 large onions (sliced) 2 cloves of garlic (Whew!) 2 packages of inch-wide noodles 1 No. 2 1/2 can of solid pack tomatoes 1 pound of American cheese To make the dish, dice the pork into small cubes and fry in a hot skillet until a golden brown. Add the sliced onions and continue until they, too, are a rich color. While the pork is sizzling away have the noodles boiling on the stove and the tomatoes running (with your help) through a colander. When the noodles are done and drained add them and the tomatoes to the pork and onions. Now add the garlic chopped and part of the cheese (cut into bits) and put all into a large baking pan. Cover with grated cheese and bake until brown. This may be made in advance and heated through just before using. In fact it's better made the day before. With plenty of John Mosetta, French bread, and hot coffee or dry wine, you've a hearty party. -------------------------------------------------------- RANCH HOME Keep looking at that OED "ranch" entry. It has "ranch" home from a crime novel in 1960. From SUNSET magazine, April 1938, pg. 48, col. 1: _Modern_ _Ranch Homes_ _in the Old Tradition_ BECAUSE THIS IS a ranch issue, _Sunset_ this month presents plans and pictures of 3 Western ranch homes. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 14 01:55:01 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 20:55:01 EST Subject: Cuban Sandwiches (1937) Message-ID: This continues several postings on "Cuban sandwiches." Other sources (such as DARE) basically have Tampa, from the 1950s. Cuban sandwiches, Cuba Libre, Daiquiri, Mojito...one trip to Cuba and I have to do everything. From a Key West story called "South From Miami" by Nina Wilcox Putnam, COLLIER'S, 18 December 1937: Pg. 18, col. 4: "Turtle Steak, 50 cents" and "Try our homemade lime pies." Next was "Conch Chowder" and "Stone-Crab Salad." Pg. 39, col. 2: There is a restaurant on Duval Street called Delmonico's which looks about as much like Delmonico's as I look like Shirley Temple. (...) And oh, my gosh, the chicken (Col. 3--ed.) soup with noodles! Stone-crab cocktail, fish a la minuta! If, however, you are a light snacker, let me recommend Cuban sandwiches. There is a little hole-in-the-wall across from the Cuban Club which makes them. These sandwiches are hardly a snack, they are more like a career. Tell the boy to use Cuban bread and Cuban ham. Then watch him make them. You never saw such an artistic performance of sandwich-making. From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Dec 14 03:24:31 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:24:31 -0500 Subject: idioms In-Reply-To: <04075613166AF949913A8094A388272A119ED0@FSMAIL.AD.Berry.edu> Message-ID: > I couldn't resist passing this along. if Jesse could write a whole book > about the phrses "The F-Word" appears in, maybe one of us will take up > this area of the vocabulary next. It's just an issue of time! We could do an S-word book and it would be twice the size of The F-Word! Jesse From douglas at NB.NET Fri Dec 14 14:19:19 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:19:19 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Phrase inquiry: "Spanish news" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011212165432.02293660@students.wisc.edu> Message-ID: I can't find anything. Maybe some commentator on Tennessee Williams has elucidated this. I found two other instances on the Web which are exactly analogous, possibly copied from Williams' usage: they add nothing. I am reduced to rank speculation. What word could replace "Spanish" here and make sense? I have three answers, giving three interpretations of "Spanish". Take your pick, if you can't find anything better. (1) "Spanish" = "hot" (climate, spicy food, passionate temperament, ...). (2) "Spanish" = "blunt" -- from equating the old slang nouns "spanish" and "blunt", both meaning "money" in the same milieu (I think). (3) [my favorite] "Spanish" = "spick-and-span" = "fresh", merely an intensifier for "new(s)" ... "spick-and-span" of course says "Spanish" twice, once as vulgar slang and once as an abbreviation. -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 14 01:59:26 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:59:26 +0800 Subject: Fwd: Phrase inquiry: "Spanish news" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011214090743.02500200@nb.net> Message-ID: At 9:19 AM -0500 12/14/01, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >I can't find anything. Maybe some commentator on Tennessee Williams has >elucidated this. I found two other instances on the Web which are exactly >analogous, possibly copied from Williams' usage: they add nothing. > Well, if anyone else wants to speculate, here are the three hits I found for "piece of Spanish news", all from dramatic (not to say soap-operatic) dialogue, each supporting Doug's characterization that they seem to be cloned from T.W.'s use. http://members.aol.com/blosslover/bluff.html http://members.tripod.com/ace_picac/trans09.html http://www.geocities.com/fantomas6/TRUEROMANCE2-Scene3.htm (This last one is particularly close to "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof" in ambience, if not quality. But it's still interesting to me that this collocation could be slipped into even as many as four scenes with no elucidation provided.) I tried "Spanish news", but that fetched too many irrelevant hits of actual Spanish news. larry From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM Fri Dec 14 15:03:23 2001 From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:03:23 -0800 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's neither "tis" nor "tes"; it's "dus" or "deez". ===== James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively |or slowly and cautiously. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 14 17:28:44 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:28:44 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <20011214150323.73460.qmail@web9708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Picky, picky! But you're right, of course (and phonetically, we should be using APA [D] for the flap). In fact, the more I say this word to myself, the more I realize I alternate between the two prons. Isn't this common with "bookish" or learned terms like 'diabetes'? I suspect it's not a regional matter at all. At 07:03 AM 12/14/01 -0800, you wrote: >It's neither "tis" nor "tes"; it's "dus" or "deez". > > > > >===== >James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything >SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued >jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively > |or slowly and cautiously. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of >your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com >or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From pcleary at WANS.NET Fri Dec 14 17:38:39 2001 From: pcleary at WANS.NET (Philip E. Cleary) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:38:39 -0500 Subject: Mong Message-ID: A news report, which is available at http://www.ananova.com/yournews/story/sm_473532.html, states that an 83-year-old Australian man stabbed his wife to death because she called him a "mong." What is a "mong"? Phil Cleary From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Fri Dec 14 17:45:29 2001 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 11:45:29 -0600 Subject: Phrase inquiry: "Spanish news" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011214090743.02500200@nb.net> Message-ID: Is the play set in the time of the Spanish revolution? DMLance > From: "Douglas G. Wilson" > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:19:19 -0500 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Fwd: Phrase inquiry: "Spanish news" > > I can't find anything. Maybe some commentator on Tennessee Williams has > elucidated this. I found two other instances on the Web which are exactly > analogous, possibly copied from Williams' usage: they add nothing. > > I am reduced to rank speculation. What word could replace "Spanish" here > and make sense? I have three answers, giving three interpretations of > "Spanish". Take your pick, if you can't find anything better. > > (1) "Spanish" = "hot" (climate, spicy food, passionate temperament, ...). > > (2) "Spanish" = "blunt" -- from equating the old slang nouns "spanish" and > "blunt", both meaning "money" in the same milieu (I think). > > (3) [my favorite] "Spanish" = "spick-and-span" = "fresh", merely an > intensifier for "new(s)" ... "spick-and-span" of course says "Spanish" > twice, once as vulgar slang and once as an abbreviation. > > -- Doug Wilson > From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Dec 14 17:47:10 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:47:10 -0500 Subject: Mong In-Reply-To: <00a301c184c6$8feab800$afa7c540@31j9t01> Message-ID: > A news report, which is available at > http://www.ananova.com/yournews/story/sm_473532.html, states that an > 83-year-old Australian man stabbed his wife to death because she called him > a "mong." > > What is a "mong"? Presumably this would be Australian slang _mong_ 'a desicable person', ultimately from _mongrel_, and not to be confused with British slang _mong_ 'an idiot; fool', from _Mongol_. Jesse Sheidlower Oxford English Dictionary From douglas at NB.NET Fri Dec 14 20:12:18 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:12:18 -0500 Subject: Mong In-Reply-To: <20011214124710.A17965@panix.com> Message-ID: > > What is a "mong"? > >Presumably this would be Australian slang _mong_ 'a desicable person', >ultimately from _mongrel_, and not to be confused with British slang >_mong_ 'an idiot; fool', from _Mongol_. I suspect it might instead be Australian slang _mong_ "stupid/annoying person"/"dork" from _mongo_ from _mongoloid_ [i.e., "mongoloid idiot" I guess], as shown in Macquarie's -- http://www.macnet.mq.edu.au/p/dictionary/slang-m.html -- along with the other "mong" = "mongrel". -- Doug Wilson From jester at PANIX.COM Fri Dec 14 20:20:53 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:20:53 -0500 Subject: Mong In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011214150211.024e6d50@nb.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 03:12:18PM -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >> What is a "mong"? > > > >Presumably this would be Australian slang _mong_ 'a desicable person', > >ultimately from _mongrel_, and not to be confused with British slang > >_mong_ 'an idiot; fool', from _Mongol_. > > I suspect it might instead be Australian slang _mong_ "stupid/annoying > person"/"dork" from _mongo_ from _mongoloid_ [i.e., "mongoloid idiot" I > guess], as shown in Macquarie's -- > > http://www.macnet.mq.edu.au/p/dictionary/slang-m.html Hmm. This seems to be newer Australian slang; it's not in the Australian National Dictionary for example. Since the speaker in question was, what, 83?, it still seems likely that the _mongrel_ variant is the likely candidate. (The earliest OED has for _mong_ 'idiot' (< _mongoloid_) is 1980, and is labelled British; while there's clearly current Aus use if Macquarie is to be trusted, it still seems like a rather elderly man wouldn't have been using this sense.) Jesse Sheidlower OED From Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM Fri Dec 14 20:28:40 2001 From: Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM (Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:28:40 -0500 Subject: Mark Mandel/Dragon Systems USA is out of the office. Message-ID: I will be out of the office starting 2001-12-14 and will not return until 3000-01-01. I am GONE. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Fri Dec 14 20:46:02 2001 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 13:46:02 -0700 Subject: Not English, but certainly American... Message-ID: We discuss American English on this list all the time, But here's a bit on a development in a somewhat different American variety (the New Testament translated into Hawaiian Pidgin English), courtesy of the school newspaper of BYU's sister campus in Hawaii: http://www.byuh.edu/kealakai/current/pages/da%20jesus%20book.html The article begins: "When Christ commissioned the teaching of his gospel to 'every nation, kindred, tongue and people,' few could have realized the extent of this command. Finally, after 12 years, island pidgin speakers now have the gospel of the New Testament available to their own people in their own peculiar tongue. 'Da Jesus Book' was a labor of love for retired Cornell University linguistics professor Joseph Grimes. With the use of 26 pidgin speakers, Grimes was able to translate the entire New Testament with the publishing aid of Wycliffe Bible Translators, the world's largest organization responsible for translating holy writ into languages of tribal and indigenous people." David Bowie Department of Linguistics Assistant Professor Brigham Young University db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 14 07:54:48 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:54:48 +0800 Subject: Mong In-Reply-To: <20011214152053.A18882@panix.com> Message-ID: At 3:20 PM -0500 12/14/01, Jesse Sheidlower wrote: >On Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 03:12:18PM -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >> What is a "mong"? >> > >> >Presumably this would be Australian slang _mong_ 'a desicable person', >> >ultimately from _mongrel_, and not to be confused with British slang >> >_mong_ 'an idiot; fool', from _Mongol_. >> >> I suspect it might instead be Australian slang _mong_ "stupid/annoying >> person"/"dork" from _mongo_ from _mongoloid_ [i.e., "mongoloid idiot" I >> guess], as shown in Macquarie's -- >> > > http://www.macnet.mq.edu.au/p/dictionary/slang-m.html Ah, the return of dork! > >Hmm. This seems to be newer Australian slang; it's not in the >Australian National Dictionary for example. Since the speaker >in question was, what, 83?, it still seems likely that the >_mongrel_ variant is the likely candidate. > >(The earliest OED has for _mong_ 'idiot' (< _mongoloid_) is 1980, >and is labelled British; while there's clearly current Aus use >if Macquarie is to be trusted, it still seems like a rather elderly man >wouldn't have been using this sense.) > The "mongrel" version of "mong" is included in M. O. Wilkes's _A Dictionary of Australian Colloquialisms_ with a first cite (from a newspaper) in 1933. This is sense 3 (= 'a human being'; derogatory); senses 1 (abbr. of mongrel) and 2 ('any dog') go back to a cite in a Jack Moses novel published in 1923. larry From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Dec 14 20:46:39 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:46:39 -0500 Subject: diabetes In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20011214122421.03c74100@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: Unfortunately, for me this is neither a bookish nor a learned term. As far as I can tell, I *always* have tense /i/ in the final syllable, and it's preceded by a lax voiceless tappish something or other. Now that I'm introspecting about it, I can't be 100% sure that my unstudied pronunciations wouldn't end in /z/ rather than /s/. However, I don't think I have the lengthening that would normally be associated with a following voiced consonant. Beverly Flanigan wrote: >Picky, picky! But you're right, of course (and phonetically, we should be >using APA [D] for the flap). In fact, the more I say this word to myself, >the more I realize I alternate between the two prons. Isn't this common >with "bookish" or learned terms like 'diabetes'? I suspect it's not a >regional matter at all. > >At 07:03 AM 12/14/01 -0800, you wrote: >>It's neither "tis" nor "tes"; it's "dus" or "deez". >> -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Fri Dec 14 20:53:27 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:53:27 -0500 Subject: Phrase inquiry: "Spanish news" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For this, wouldn't the time of the Spanish-American war be more likely? It was coverage of this war that put the "yellow" in "yellow journalism", so to speak. Donald M Lance wrote: >Is the play set in the time of the Spanish revolution? >DMLance > >> From: "Douglas G. Wilson" >> Reply-To: American Dialect Society >> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 09:19:19 -0500 >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >> Subject: Re: Fwd: Phrase inquiry: "Spanish news" >> >> I can't find anything. Maybe some commentator on Tennessee Williams has >> elucidated this. I found two other instances on the Web which are exactly >> analogous, possibly copied from Williams' usage: they add nothing. >> >> I am reduced to rank speculation. What word could replace "Spanish" here >> and make sense? I have three answers, giving three interpretations of >> "Spanish". Take your pick, if you can't find anything better. >> >> (1) "Spanish" = "hot" (climate, spicy food, passionate temperament, ...). >> >> (2) "Spanish" = "blunt" -- from equating the old slang nouns "spanish" and >> "blunt", both meaning "money" in the same milieu (I think). >> >> (3) [my favorite] "Spanish" = "spick-and-span" = "fresh", merely an >> intensifier for "new(s)" ... "spick-and-span" of course says "Spanish" >> twice, once as vulgar slang and once as an abbreviation. >> >> -- Doug Wilson >> -- ============================================================================= Alice Faber faber at haskins.yale.edu Haskins Laboratories tel: (203) 865-6163 x258 New Haven, CT 06511 USA fax (203) 865-8963 From douglas at NB.NET Fri Dec 14 21:45:55 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:45:55 -0500 Subject: Mong In-Reply-To: <20011214152053.A18882@panix.com> Message-ID: > > >Presumably this would be Australian slang _mong_ 'a desicable person', > > >ultimately from _mongrel_, and not to be confused with British slang > > >_mong_ 'an idiot; fool', from _Mongol_. > > > > I suspect it might instead be Australian slang _mong_ "stupid/annoying > > person"/"dork" from _mongo_ from _mongoloid_ [i.e., "mongoloid idiot" I > > guess], as shown in Macquarie's -- > > > > http://www.macnet.mq.edu.au/p/dictionary/slang-m.html > >Hmm. This seems to be newer Australian slang; it's not in the >Australian National Dictionary for example. Since the speaker >in question was, what, 83?, it still seems likely that the >_mongrel_ variant is the likely candidate. > >(The earliest OED has for _mong_ 'idiot' (< _mongoloid_) is 1980, >and is labelled British; while there's clearly current Aus use >if Macquarie is to be trusted, it still seems like a rather elderly man >wouldn't have been using this sense.) But .... (1) Is "mong" = "mongrel" commonly used figuratively? [I don't know the answer.] I've seen it used for a dog, IIRC. The on-line Macquarie shows "mong" = "mongrel dog" and it's not clear to me whether this is routinely used as an insult like "mongrel" itself apparently is. If "mong" (= "mongrel dog") is used as a casual insult, it will typically be indistinguishable from the other "mong", I think ... probably even to the speaker. (2) In the context of the article -- <> -- I think "mong = "dork"/"idiot" fits better than "mong[rel]" = "dog" [fig.] or "mong[rel]" = "person of mixed ancestry" (another theoretical possibility). (3) The woman who made the 'mistake' of using this word was only 82! (4) Older persons often get arthritis etc. and don't go out as much as previously ... so they watch the "mong box" a lot, and pick up all sorts of bad language. -- Doug Wilson From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Sat Dec 15 03:09:21 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:09:21 EST Subject: A man for the next millenium Message-ID: In a message dated 12/14/2001 3:41:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM writes: > I will be out of the office starting 2001-12-14 and will not return until > 3000-01-01. From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Sat Dec 15 03:26:56 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 22:26:56 -0500 Subject: A man for the next millenium In-Reply-To: <4d.1609b43a.294c18e1@aol.com> Message-ID: >In a message dated 12/14/2001 3:41:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, >Mark.Mandel at LHSL.COM writes: > >> I will be out of the office starting 2001-12-14 and will not return until >> 3000-01-01. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cryonics, perhaps? A. Murie From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Sat Dec 15 15:50:19 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 10:50:19 -0500 Subject: Who Needs Dictionaries?/CUT A CHECK Message-ID: I realize this is a heretical and slightly schismatic question for a lexicographer to ask. It has, however, as we all know, been asked since the incunabula days of Western, esp. English lexicography. In a variant form, the question is, "Why not just have dictionaries of hard words?" For example, suppose you don't know what "to cut a check/cheque" means. This is the assumption on which dictionary usage is based: you look up words you don't know. To dodge the issue, one claims to be a "native speaker" who knows such words and phrases from diaper days. Only learners ask such questions. I spent a few minutes this morning checking such vade mecums as the Concise Oxford, the Collegiate, and my own latest User's(r) Webster! Then I used my personal method of getting meaningS straight from the horse's mouth, so to say, not in the cud-chewed or abstract form used by conventional (no offence meant) dictionaries, a method that uses databases or corpora that provide meaning in context. (OED comes close to satisfying the need, but that's a different world). "Google.com" took just 0.64 seconds to display scads of citations. I think even a "non-native" or "learner" who has passed Grade 7 should be able to get the meaning from the cites displayed, though not in a formal, quotable form, as used in a class room. But if you need a formal definition, can you locate what you want (e.g. cut a check) in a conventional dictionary? And how long would it take? The question for me is, which is more important - the medium or the message? Personally, I'd like to see a dictionary that has more of good contemporary idiomatic English text and less of the abstract kind of definitions and which can be searched like Google. In dictionary-making, text should increase, "definitions" should decrease. End of self-serving lecture. TOM PAIKEDAY From Barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Dec 15 17:19:14 2001 From: Barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 12:19:14 -0500 Subject: Who Needs Dictionaries?/CUT A CHECK Message-ID: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA,Net writes: .... Personally, I'd like to see a dictionary that has more of good >contemporary idiomatic English text and less of the abstract kind of >definitions and which can be searched like Google. In dictionary-making, >text should increase, "definitions" should decrease. End of self-serving >lecture. > Rather like you find in The Barnhart Dictionary Companion? End of my self-serving response. Happy Holidays to all, David barnhart at highlands.com From lisawitt at GTE.NET Sat Dec 15 20:04:14 2001 From: lisawitt at GTE.NET (Lisa Wittenberg Hillyard) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 12:04:14 -0800 Subject: Blessed Message-ID: Blessed as a verb is /blEst/ Blessed as an adjective is /blEs ed/ Are there other examples of this process? One gets kissed /kist/ under the holly sprig. *He was the first kissed /kis ed/ guest. They bussed /bust/ the troops to the city. *The bussed /bus ed/ troups arrived at noon. Perhaps, blest is OE spelling, but the pronunciation would persist with the regular preterit spelling. Can anyone comment on the adjective pronunciation? Is it an emphatic usage started in the church (Blessed Virgin) that has become accepted? or is there another story here? -lisa From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 15 08:58:39 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:58:39 +0800 Subject: Blessed In-Reply-To: <3C1BACB6.CABC5F45@gte.net> Message-ID: At 12:04 PM -0800 12/15/01, Lisa Wittenberg Hillyard wrote: >Blessed as a verb is /blEst/ >Blessed as an adjective is /blEs ed/ > >Are there other examples of this process? > >One gets kissed /kist/ under the holly sprig. >*He was the first kissed /kis ed/ guest. > >They bussed /bust/ the troops to the city. >*The bussed /bus ed/ troups arrived at noon. > Not quite the same, but EVENING (three syllables) as a verb ("evening out the results/batter") vs. EV'NING (two syllables) as a noun ("spend an evening out"). Some posters earlier wrote about "striped" /strayp ed/ in your transcription system (two syllables), and I seem to recall (though I'm not going to check the archive at the moment) that for a subset of them not ALL instances of "striped" had the extra syllable--strip-ed (bisyll.) kitty vs. striped (monosyll.) toothpaste, perhaps? For us Noo Yawkuhs, they're all /straypt/. larry From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Dec 15 22:22:58 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 17:22:58 -0500 Subject: Blessed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, They're all monosyllabic for me, except, oddly, in the curious "to run like a striped-assed ape" (i.e., fast). dinIs >At 12:04 PM -0800 12/15/01, Lisa Wittenberg Hillyard wrote: >>Blessed as a verb is /blEst/ >>Blessed as an adjective is /blEs ed/ >> >>Are there other examples of this process? >> >>One gets kissed /kist/ under the holly sprig. >>*He was the first kissed /kis ed/ guest. >> >>They bussed /bust/ the troops to the city. >>*The bussed /bus ed/ troups arrived at noon. >> >Not quite the same, but EVENING (three syllables) as a verb >("evening out the results/batter") vs. EV'NING (two syllables) as a >noun ("spend an evening out"). > >Some posters earlier wrote about "striped" /strayp ed/ in your >transcription system (two syllables), and I seem to recall (though >I'm not going to check the archive at the moment) that for a subset >of them not ALL instances of "striped" had the extra >syllable--strip-ed (bisyll.) kitty vs. striped (monosyll.) >toothpaste, perhaps? For us Noo Yawkuhs, they're all /straypt/. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From douglas at NB.NET Sat Dec 15 22:46:19 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 17:46:19 -0500 Subject: Blessed Message-ID: >Blessed as a verb is /blEst/ >Blessed as an adjective is /blEs ed/ I think the adjective is either way. >Are there other examples of this process? The most obvious one is "cursed". >Can anyone comment on the adjective pronunciation? Is it an emphatic usage started in the church (Blessed Virgin) that has become accepted? I can comment on anything, but not necessarily sensibly or cogently. I think the stretched versions of "blessed" and "cursed" are probably favored by solemn/pompous/weighty church or church-like uses. There are also poetic uses ("the horn?d moon") and jocular ones ("I'm not [stupid/stoop?d], I'm standing up straight"). -- Doug Wilson From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Sat Dec 15 11:11:10 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 19:11:10 +0800 Subject: Blessed In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011215174519.024e0ec0@nb.net> Message-ID: At 5:46 PM -0500 12/15/01, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: > >Blessed as a verb is /blEst/ >>Blessed as an adjective is /blEs ed/ > >I think the adjective is either way. > >>Are there other examples of this process? > >The most obvious one is "cursed". > >>Can anyone comment on the adjective pronunciation? Is it an emphatic >usage started in the church (Blessed Virgin) that has become accepted? > >I can comment on anything, but not necessarily sensibly or cogently. I >think the stretched versions of "blessed" and "cursed" are probably favored >by solemn/pompous/weighty church or church-like uses. There are also poetic >uses ("the horn?d moon") and jocular ones ("I'm not [stupid/stoop?d], I'm >standing up straight"). > >-- Doug Wilson How about--in honor of the holiday season--a short-wicked candle vs. a short, wicked elf? larry From indigo at WELL.COM Sun Dec 16 02:52:45 2001 From: indigo at WELL.COM (Indigo Som) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 18:52:45 -0800 Subject: Not English, but certainly American... In-Reply-To: <200112150512.VAA25359@smtp.well.com> Message-ID: I love pidgin so I got all excited about this... turns out there's a whole website for this project & my favorite page is this one: http://www.pidginbible.org/id6.htm >development in a somewhat different American variety (the New Testament >translated into Hawaiian Pidgin English) Indigo Som indigo at well.com Poets don't have hobbies; they have obsessions --Leonard Nathan From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 16 03:29:07 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 22:29:07 EST Subject: White Mountain Cake, Molasses Cookies (1862) Message-ID: From THE HOUSEHOLD JOURNAL OF POPULAR INFORMATION, AMUSEMENT AND DOMESTIC COOKERY, published at 20 North William Street, New York City. From 5 September 1862, pg. 367, col. 3: WHITE MOUNTAIN CAKE. One cupful of white sugar; two eggs; one-half cupful of milk; one-half cupful of butter; one-half teaspoonful of soda; one do. cream tartar; two cupfuls of flour. From 23 August 1862, pg. 334, col. 2: MOLASSES COOKIES. One cup of lard; two and a half cups of molasses; two teaspoonfuls soda; two eggs; one teaspoonful alum; one cup of sweet milk. New Orleans molasses makes nice cakes than any other. ("White Mountain Cake" is all over 19th century books, but I don't have early cites. Mariani never mentions it; DARE is not on the letter "W." It's in MRS. PORTER'S SOUTHERN COOKERY BOOK (1871). Both of these items are in Marion Harland's COMMON SENSE IN THE HOUSEHOLD (1872), available on the Making of America-Books database. I've been lobbying for "molasses cookies" for OED's "M" revision--ed.) From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sun Dec 16 14:27:16 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 09:27:16 -0500 Subject: Blessed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, Careful, or some wag will write in about a short-wicked elf! dInIs >At 5:46 PM -0500 12/15/01, Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >> >Blessed as a verb is /blEst/ >>>Blessed as an adjective is /blEs ed/ >> >>I think the adjective is either way. >> >>>Are there other examples of this process? >> >>The most obvious one is "cursed". >> >>>Can anyone comment on the adjective pronunciation? Is it an emphatic >>usage started in the church (Blessed Virgin) that has become accepted? >> >>I can comment on anything, but not necessarily sensibly or cogently. I >>think the stretched versions of "blessed" and "cursed" are probably favored >>by solemn/pompous/weighty church or church-like uses. There are also poetic >>uses ("the horn?d moon") and jocular ones ("I'm not [stupid/stoop?d], I'm >>standing up straight"). >> >>-- Doug Wilson > >How about--in honor of the holiday season--a short-wicked candle vs. >a short, wicked elf? > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 16 18:27:10 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 13:27:10 EST Subject: Hop-in-John; Mother Used to Make; Big Apple-Big Easy Message-ID: HOP-IN-JOHN (for HOPPING JOHN)--I was going through the GOOD HOUSEKEEPING index I have here and found January-June 1909: "Hop-in-John...247." My guess is that you serve "Hop-in-John" last. MOTHER USED TO MAKE--OED's first (revised "M" entry?) is P. G. Wodehouse from 1919. I'd posted some "mother used to make" (for "home cooking") here before. The GOOD HOUSEKEEPING index, March 1896: "Howard's Hash: the Kind That Mother Used to Make," in "The Bachelor and the Chafing Dish," page 112. BIG APPLE-BIG EASY--According to a story in the 12-12-01 New Orleans TIMES-PICAYUNE, Big Apple-to-Big Easy ads will start to appear in Times Square in about a week, to promote New York-New Orleans tourism. I sent an e-mail to the T-P and told them about my ten-year campaign to honor the African-American who came up with "the Big Apple," but no one listens. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 17 00:40:30 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 19:40:30 EST Subject: CUE's "Table Talk" (1938-1939) Message-ID: CUE (NY, NY) no longer exists. It merged into NEW YORK magazine, and now there's also TIME OUT NEW YORK for weekly food listings. CUE started out with entertainment stories, but quickly added restaurant ads and a weekly "Table Talk" column. A CUE book or two was published, but forget about that. You have to go through each issue. I'm looking at "Table Talk" from the 1930s through the 1960s. Columbia University has the full run of that. These "Table Talk" columns were written by Brailsford Felder, unless I tell you it's by Lawton Mackall (KNIFE AND FORK IN NEW YORK author) or someone else. 20 August 1938, pg. 12, col. 1--All over town the barmen tell us that the cocktail known variously as the _West Indies_, the _Cuban_, or the _Frozen Daiquiri_ is the up-and-coming drink of the moment. 10 September 1938, pg. 11, col. 3--Thursday is opulently Italian with _Stucchi Genovese_, which is a marvelous mating of chicken mousse and chicken livers _en brochette_, blanketed in ham, mushrooms, and truffles. 12 November 1938, pg. 10, col. 1--"New York Cut" is a phrase to conjure with on Western menus, and you can be sure that the word "cut" doesn't refer to the price. (Col. 2--ed.) ...Daiquiri-sipping glamor girls. 3 December 1938, pg. 41, col. 2--...you can order _Crepes Bacchus_--at no extra cost. They're _Crepes Suzette_ with a difference. The _Crepe_ is wrapped lovingly around a row of large white grapes before it gets its baptism of fire. 10 December 1938, pg. 43, col. 2--...ebon-hued Walnut Sauce by Cross & Blackwell, concocters also of luxurient Mushroom Catsup, besides turning out Mint sauce in their spare time. (...) Morton's 101 Sauce, slyly fruity and nutty; Ocar's glorified chili; Philippoff's Russian Mustard Sauce...trig earthenware _poupons_ of Dijon mustard.... 14 January 1939, pg. 36, col. 2--..._Patlijan Bostan_ is "tender pieces of lamb with Oriental dill and fresh tomatoes baked in oven," _Funduk Keofte_, "baked baby meat ball with tomato sauce," etc., etc. 21 January 1939, pg. 36, col. 1--...such other unfamiliar taste thrills as pomegranate cocktail, badami soup (with almonds and cocoanut), Dhal (lentils), Tulpadi (sesame seed cakes), copra (fresh fried cocoanut), burfee (almond cream cake), and, sounding like the Arabian Nights, rose petal coffee. 18 February 1939, pg. 39, col. 1--In which case, why not try a cutlet _a la Kieff_? (Casino Russe, 157 W. 56th Street--ed.) 4 March 1939, pg. 39, col. 2--Moa Oma Me Leko Me Palaoa is what Hawaiians call young boned chicken poached in a crock. As served in the Hawaiian Room of the Hotel Lexington it's the genuine Pacific Isles article except that it's wrapped in cellophane instead of plantain leaves. 11 March 1939, pg. 41, col. 2--When Fred C. Eberlin, who came to this country from Alsace in the mid-Nineteenth Century, decided to go into business for himself in 1872, he did so in the cellar at the corner of Wall St. and Broadway, where his establishment remained until the Irving Trust Company erected its giant skyscraper on the site and forced Eberlin's around the corner at 45 New St. The Eberlin tradition moved with it. The bartender, Henry Jacob, for instance, has been with Eberlin's 54 years, the "rectifier" (storeroom man, to you) 40 years. Eberlin employees of less than 25 years standing are looked upon as newcomers. Eberlin's claims to be the birthplace of the Gin Daisy, the Jack Rose, and the Jersey Lily; but proof positive is lost somewhere in the mists of time. 18 March 1939, pg. 43, col. 2--The slogan "Never a Dull Moment" means just what it says. (Radio Franks, 70 E. 55th St.--ed.) 15 April 1939, pg. 40, col. 3--Your cocktail arrives in a little individual shaker, and you can mix your own salad and dressing on an ambulatory salad wagon--a trick that brings out the chef who lurks in all of us. (See "salad bar" in ADS-L archives--ed.) 29 April 1939, pg. 45, col. 2--SINCE NEW YORK IS the culinary capital of these United States, it seems likely that the millions of visitors from the hinterland, who come to view the World's Fair's wonders, will want to include among their souvenirs a good many that are edible. (See "capital of the world" in ADS-L archives. Rudy Giuliani used the phrase last night on yet another appearance--his last?--on Saturday Night Live--ed.) 6 May 1939, pg. 44, col. 2--Nor is Miss (Faith--ed.) Bacon, though mentioned last, to be taken lightly. It is, in fact, Miss Bacon who will pop the eyes of the World's Fair visitors right out of their sockets. SHe claims, as you may have seen in the papers, to be the originator of the fan dance, and her two new Riviera specialties have been the subject of endless advance speculation. She adds one letter to "fan" and creates the "Fawn Dance." (...)(Col. 3--ed.) In her other dance Miss Bacon, who insists her work is art, not "porniography," will appear swathed in orchids. 13 May 1939, pg. 42, col. 3--To make a Gin and Vermouth Cup, put 1 cup (the kitchen measuring kind) of gin, 1/4 cup Vermouth, the juice of 3 lemons, 2 tablespoonsful of sugar syrup (3 if you use confectioners sugar) in a 2 quart pitcher, stir, fill up with cold charged water and serve in tall, slender glasses with a couple of lumps of ice in each one. 13 May 1939, pg. 47, col. 3--Between rhumbas at the Cuban Village you can experiment with _tasajo_, which is jerked beef, _apiazo_, which is the Cuban version of vegetable soup, and _congri_, which is black beans and rice cooked together--and get tight in the Cuban fashion on _daiquiris_ and _Cuba libres_ of real rum. 10 June 1939, pg. 42, col. 3--Essex House, since it takes its name from a close friend of a former Queen Elizabeth, is feeling very proprietary about the royal visit. Consequently, the Casino-on-the-Park has been done over in English chintz and is featuring a (Pg. 43, col. 1--ed.) new cocktail created in honor of the Queen and called "Her Majesty". This regal intoxicant is composed of 2/3 London Gin, 1/3 Benedictine, and the juice of 1 lime. It should be poured into a glass garnished with a twist of lime peel. (Compare the name with "Bloody Mary," also in 1939--ed.) 17 June 1939, pg. 42, col. 3--_Jajik_, a cold soup made of the Turkish version of sour cream.... 8 July 1939, pg. 43, col. 2--Apropos of the growing popularity of Vermouth drinks, the hotel Ambassador's head bartender, Nick, is keeping up with or, rather, ahead of the times. He's invented a new tall potation called the Ambassador Cooler which you'll probably want to try. It's actually a variation of the familiar Vermouth and soda, with a few new wrinkles. Into a tall glass pour 1 jigger of Italian Vermouth, 1 jigger of French Vermouth, a dash of Angostura Bitters, and a dash of Compari bitters. Add ice, garnish with a twist of lemon, and fill up with seltzer. Vermouth drinks, incidentally, are good news for the calory-conscious--they don't contain the pesky things. 29 July 1939, pg. 39, col. 3--Her Jade Cocktail, which is made of 4 cups of grapefruit juice, 1 cup of spinach juice, 1/4 cup of watercress juice, and a pinch of vegetable salt, will give you some idea of the limitless (Helena--ed.) Rubinstein imagination. 12 August 1939, pg. 32(?), col. 2--For a main dish in the Finnish manner try _Metsastajapihvi_, which means "hunter's steak" and is made with veal. Or, for a simpler dish, you might order _Olutmakkaraa_, a sort of Arctic hot dog made of "Finnfurters." 19 August 1939, pg. 33, col. 1--"Park Avenue" is the perfect drink. To one part of champagne and one part of brandy ass 1 slice of lemon, pour over ice in champagne glasses and let Nature take its own perfect course. 26 August 1939, pg. 33, col. 2--Consider the virtues of Frosted Sherry as the epcurean finale to a warm weather meal (or, for that matter, of a gala Wintertime dinner). It's made with 1 1/2 cups water, 1/2 cup of sugar, a 1/2-inch stick of cinnamon, 2 cups of grape juice, 2 cups of pineapple juice, 1 1/2 teaspoons of grated lemon rind, 3 tablespoons of quick-cooking tapioca, 1 cup of fresh raspberries, 1/2 cup of sherry. (...) 23 September 1939, pg. 31, col. 2--You might try "oke" punch, which comes in a cocoanut shell that you can take home with you, and as a main dish, Moa Oma Me Leko Me Palao, which is the Hawaiian way of describing young boned chicken with artichoke hearts and other matters. 14 October 1939, pg. 40, col. 3--_Food Cue of the Week_--The Caruso Restaurant Chain will send out on request anywhere in Manhattan, chicken dinners consisting of (1) a spiral-roasted milk fed chicken, (2) vegetables, (3) bread and butter, all for $2. Serves 4. No charge for delivery. (See archives for "take-out"--ed.) 21 October 1939, pg. 31, col. 3--_Food Cue of the Week_--Pepperidge Farm Bread is very much in the "for those who can afford and appreciate the best" tradition. It is actually home baked at Pepperidge Farm, the country estate of one Mrs. Margaret Rudkin up near Westport, and rushed to town via American Express between midnight and dawn each morning. It comes in white and whole wheat and retails for 25 cents a loaf at Vendome, 415 Madison Ave., or at your local Gristede's. 18 November 1939, pg. 32--(Thanksgiving at the White Turkey Town House, 1 University Place/NYU, of "turkey" interest--ed.) 9 December 1939, pg. 43, col. 3--_Food Cue of the Week_--Mississippi Pecan Pie at Little Old Mansion, 61 E. 52nd St., comes on the regular $1 and up dinner. Miss Gladys Caton Wilcock, Little Old Mansion proprietress, has graciously given the recipe to this department and copies will be sent to readers on request. 23 December 1939, pg. 31, col. 3--_Food Cue of the Week_--Banana Chips, a smart new idea for the cocktail hour, look like potato chips, are made of bananas, and taste like neither. They're 25 cents the 4 oz. bag at Wanamaker's, Macy's, Vendome, McCreery's. (To Be Continued--ed.) From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM Mon Dec 17 01:35:26 2001 From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:35:26 -0500 Subject: Pepperidge farm What? Message-ID: >>From Bapopik's Table Talk post of 12/16: >21 October 1939, pg. 31, col. 3--_Food Cue of the Week_--Pepperidge Farm >Bread is >very much in the "for those who can afford and appreciate the >best" tradition. It is >actually home baked at Pepperidge Farm, the >country estate of one Mrs. Margaret >Rudkin up near Westport, and rushed >to town via American Express between >midnight and dawn each morning. It >comes in white and whole wheat and retails for >25 cents a loaf at >Vendome, 415 Madison Ave., or at your local Gristede's. ~~~~~~~~~ Can't imagine anyone saying this about the stuff that's sold under that name today! A. Murie From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 17 05:21:02 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:21:02 EST Subject: Barney Gallant mystery book (1941) Message-ID: From CUE, 14 June 1941, pg. 25, col. 1: _MILKMAN'S MEMOIRS:_ Barney Gallant, who has been a Manhattan restaurateur, principally in the Village, for 25 years, has just completed a book _My Past Pursues Me_ which he wrote in the cold gray dawn after his University Place bistro closed for the morning. A series of excerpts therefrom, entitled _The Vanishing Village_, begins in the July _Cosmopolitan_. --BRAILSFORD FELDER Where is this book? I had looked through the "restaurateur" subject heading, and I've read every single book that I could get my hands on. But this one is new to me. I checked the NYPL. No listing. I checked NYU/N-Y Historical Society. No listing. I checked OCLC WorldCat. No listing. I checked Bookfinder.com and Bibliofind.com. No listing. No listing under Barney Gallant. No listing under MY PAST PURSUES ME. Various other authors for THE VANISHING VILLAGE. I'll check out the July 1941 COSMOPOLITAN magazine for the excerpts. Barney Gallant was a Greenwich Village restaurateur for 25 years. The book came out in 1941. If I'm really lucky, it'll have a word or two on gay=homosexual. But where is the book? -------------------------------------------------------- OFF TOPIC: Andy Soltis's chess problem in today's SUNDAY NEW YORK POST (www.nypost.com), from Yermolinsky-Tate, Reno 2001 (maybe it's on the internet), is a beauty. It's a classic opening trap, and the answer is... Qa4. From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET Mon Dec 17 08:12:47 2001 From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:12:47 -0800 Subject: urban legends In-Reply-To: <30.1f9b663d.294ea629@aol.com> Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Dec 17 12:59:59 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 07:59:59 EST Subject: urban legends Message-ID: In a message dated 12/17/01 3:14:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET writes: > I have just been reading the Urban Legends page and came across one about > dictionaries that seems familiar. I have checked it in my MW Unabridged, > 2nded (1934), and, by God, it's there! > > It's the entry "dord"; which has a pron but no etym. The def > is Physics & Chemistry Density. There is no such word. Seems > the entry, which should have gone to the abbreviation section as "D or d", got > into the word pile and was entered alphabetically as a word. Once a > pronunciation was added (Rima,you are not to blame for this one), it became > an official entry in the MW Unabridged. No one seems to have noticed > that it had no etym, however. In fact it was the lack of etymology that eventually gave it away. >From URL http://members.aol.com/gulfhigh2/words1.html DORD is a non-existent word entered into the second edition of Webster's New International Dictionary by mistake. The following is taken from The Story of Webster's Third: Philip Gove's Controversial Dictionary and Its Critics by Herbert C. Morton (1994): When the guidelines for etymology in Webster's Third were nearing completion, Gove [editor of the "Third"] took time out to add the story of dord to the lore of how things can go wrong in dictionary making. Dord was a word that had appeared spontaneously and had found a quiet niche in the English language two decades earlier. It was recorded in Webster's Second in 1934 on page 771, where it remained undetected for five years. It disappeared from the dictionary a year later without ever having entered common parlance. The facts, which had been established years earlier through a search of company files, were as follows, as abridged from Gove's explanation. The lack of an etymology for dord, meaning "density," was noted by an editor on February 28, 1939, when he was perusing the dictionary. Startled by the omission, he went to the files to track down what had happened and what needed to be done. There, he found, first, a three-by-five white slip that had been sent to the company by a consultant in chemistry on July 31, 1931, bearing the notation "D or d, cont/ density." It was intended to be the basis for entering an additional abbreviation at the letter D in the next edition. The notation "cont," short for "continued," was to alert the typist to the fact that there would be several such entries for abbreviations at D. A change in the organization of the dictionary possibly added to the confusion that followed. For the 1934 edition, all abbreviations were to be assembled in a separate "Abbreviations" section at the back of the book; in the previous edition words and abbreviations appeared together in a single alphabetical listing (which is how they again appeared in the Third Edition.) But after the original slip was typed for editorial handling, it was misdirected. Eventually, it came to be treated with the words rather than with the abbreviations. Th editorial stylist who received the first typed version should have marked "or" to be set in italics to indicate that the letters were abbreviations (D or d). But instead, she drew a continuous wavy line underneath to signify that "D or d" should be set in boldface in the manner of an entry word, and a label was added, "Physics & Chem." Since entry words were to be typed with a space between letters, the editorial stylist may have inferred that the typist had intended to write d o r d; the mysterious "cont" was ignored. These errors should have been caught when the word was retyped on a different color slip for the printer, but they were not. The stylist who received this version crossed out the "cont" and added the part-of-speech label n for noun. "As soon as someone else entered the pronunciation," Gove wrote, "dord was given the slap on the back that sent breath into its being. Whether the etymologist ever got a chance to stifle it, there is no evidence. It simply has no etymology. Thereafter, only a proofreader had final opportunity at the word, but as the proof passed under his scrutiny he was at the moment not so alert and suspicious as usual." The last slip in the file -- added in 1939 -- was marked "plate change imperative/urgent." The entry was deleted, and the space was closed up by lengthening the entry that followed. In 1940 bound books began appearing without the ghost word but with a new abbreviation. In the list of meanings for the abbreviation "D or d" appeared the phrase "density, Physics." Probably too bad, Gove added, "for why shouldn't dord mean density?" A footnote indicates the excerpt above was based on Philip Gove, "The History of Dord," American Speech, 29 (1954): 136-8. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 17 02:03:58 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:03:58 +0800 Subject: urban legends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 7:59 AM -0500 12/17/01, James A. Landau wrote: > >DORD is a non-existent word entered into the second edition of Webster's New >International Dictionary by mistake. The following is taken from The Story of >Webster's Third: Philip Gove's Controversial Dictionary and Its Critics by >Herbert C. Morton (1994): >... This is a great story, although unfortunately the Webster's Second we have here in our department is a later printing from which "dord" has been brutally excised. ("dordectomy", anyone?) On the other hand, like every other Webster's Second, ours does include that immortal entry: TWAT. Some part of a nun's garb. Erron. Brown. Of course in this case, as the OED entry makes a bit more explicit, it's Browning's slip (from "Pippa Passes") that's showing, not the unknown lexicographer's. larry From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Mon Dec 17 16:20:05 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:20:05 -0500 Subject: urban legends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I vaguely recall having heard that story during one of Ward Gilman's defining lessons (Gil has all the dirt on M-W flub-ups, including The Third International's chateaubriand sense 1, which, by some strange coincidence also appeared in a dictionary established for the express purpose of correcting W3!) FWIW, I checked the marked-up editorial copy of the 1934 printing of W2, and Rima's friend is absolutely right -- dord is there, with a delete mark running through it. The date of the correction is given as 11-21-40, and it appears first the 1947 printing of the book. Well, the wonder is that more mistakes like that don't get through. Preparing a new dictionary for publication is, in some ways, like working at a rest stop McDonald's in southern Connecticut during Christmas season. Joanne From einstein at FROGNET.NET Mon Dec 17 15:19:00 2001 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:19:00 -0500 Subject: Dord Message-ID: Aren't there also instances of 'words' inserted into dictionaries for the purpose of catching plagiarists such as the $1.59/volume dictionaries that used to be for sale in groceries? Certainly it would be worthwhile for Merriam to look to see how many of these contain entries for 'dord.' ___________________ We are all New Yorkers --Dominique Moisi New York is America. We're all in this together --Mayor Rudy Giuliani From carljweber at MSN.COM Mon Dec 17 16:42:53 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:42:53 -0600 Subject: Chicago Etymology Revisited Message-ID: Chicago Etymology Revisited Carl Jeffrey Weber A few days ago I posted this to the Linguist list. Now I see the American Dialectic Society has the more specific readership. In August of 2000 I ended my Chicago etymology comments with, "Not today, not next week, but sometime in the future I intend to refine and again summarize my data." Although I can not, still, with confidence say what the etymology of the word is, there are, nevertheless, as a result of this continuing investigation, various new and noteworthy linguistic, cartographic, and historical findings. In addition to input by more than a dozen Algonquianists and other linguists, there's been an extensive investigation of ALL the available relevant narratives and maps before 1700. These have been chronologically ordered, with allowance made for questionable examples, and examined in their historical settings. The two standing etymologies of Chicago, by Virgil J. Vogel (1958) and John F. Swenson (1991), each propose their own archetypical forms, "Chicagon" and "Chicagoua," and claim the word is regional, i.e., Miami/Illinois. My investigations have found new "earliest attestations" in a text (1680, a La Salle report) and on a map (1684, Franquelin's "La Louisiane," inspired by La Salle). A scan of the map, as a result of this investigation, has been recently acquired by the Newberry Library from the Harvard Library, where it had been tracked. The map shows La Salle's grand design for the vast Louisiana. The plan was intended for, and presented to, Louis XIV, who granted La Salle's plan. The data show the original form of the word was "Checagou" (on a few maps, "Chekagou"). With only one exception, this form is substantiated by the evidence. (The exception, Henri Joutel, has the famous "onions" quote, 1687, to which the foundation of the skunk/onion theory adverts -- and as will be suggested below, seems to have been a punning linguistic hoax!) There is a map from 1685 (Minet's) that Vogel cites as the earliest use of the word on a map (Checago), but this is a defective tracing, and impossible for simple reasons not here related. Of special note, the original written form I posit has "Che-" and NOT "Chi-"; also note, there is no "-a" on the end. By way of this etymological investigation, the various data indicate that La Salle introduced, popularized, and literally put Chicago on the map. The uses of this form, La Salle's "Checagou" (with the one mentioned legitimate exception), are found exclusively before 1697 -- the first seventeen years of the word's attested use. The uses are ALL traceable to La Salle's influence. Swenson's conclusion that "Chicagoua" was original, is not corroborated by the evidence. The "-a" at the end of the word was an addition that appeared nearly two decades AFTER La Salle's first use, and subsequent use by others. The terminal "-a" was not, as Swenson suggests, pre-existing and "conventionally" dropped. Vogel's "Chicagon" represents one of the more entertaining threads of Chicago etymology. There is an enduring and pervasive idea that in Chicago's etymological provenance there is somewhere to be found an "at the" nasal locative morpheme that at some point fell off the end of the word. Many still have an attachment to this idea. However, this thread is to be traced back to a typographical error (!) found in the 1714 English translation of Henri Joutel's narrative. (This is the short version, Joutel's long version was made available by Pierre Margry in 1876-86. Vogel was not aware of the long version when he wrote in 1958, and he executed some extreme blunders.) Joutel's 1714 "Chicagon" should have been "Chicagou," as in Margry. But the prize for historical Chicago etymology befuddlement should be bestowed on Henry Rowe Schoolcraft. He was popularly regarded in the 19th century as the foremost scholar of all things Indian. In the many editions of his immensely influential work, he parsed "Chicago" as "great+porcupine+place of." Joutel's 1714 locative typo ("-on") was passed on by Schoolcraft to Vogel. However, there WAS NO locative morpheme. In addition, Schoolcraft disseminated the "great" thread found in Chicago etymology, a thread that was quite energetic until the 1930s (the "great" is also found in Louis Hennepin, 1697, but will not be elaborated here). The "Chi-" of Chicoutimi IS supported by various kinds of evidence to mean "great". The Chicoutimi River, in Canada, is on 18th Century maps translated as "great discharge". The "Chi-" of Chicago, meaning "great," however, is currently universally rejected by Algonquianists. DATA: (1) There IS a proto-Algonquian word for "skunk," that in various derived languages, three hundred years ago, no doubt sounded very much like La Salle's "Checagou." (2) In fact, La Salle's spelling is acceptable for "skunk" in Fox/Sauk/Kickapoo and in Chaouanon (Shawnee) -- but these were NOT languages native to the area. (3) In 1687 is found the principal evidence for the current onion theory -- the Indians told Joutel that the place got its name ("Chicagou") from the onions that grew abundantly in the region. (4) However, three years before this, La Salle's "Checagou" (with a "k") had been put on Franquelin's official royal map. (5) Joutel's "Chi-" spelling (I repeat myself) is the only exception to La Salle's "Che-," found in the first seventeen years of the word's history. (6) The Indians did not tell Joutel that the word in Miami/Illinois was transparently the same word as "skunk" -- in fact it wasn't until the English narrative of John Tanner, in the 1830s, that the "skunk" etymology comes up at all. (7) In the Miami/Illinois language there WAS a word, "Chicagoua," that meant "skunk" and also referred to the Alium tricoccum, a sometimes foul smelling alium, which John Kirkland identified over a century ago as the onion (garlic/leek) of Joutel -- the identification confirmed and put on extensively footnoted foundations by Swenson. (8) La Salle opened up the Illinois territory in 1680 -- the same year Checagou was first written. This is no coincidence. Vogel and Swenson's presentations to the contrary, there is NO evidence for the word's use before 1680, even though several maps and narratives, before La Salle, had the opportunity to present it (Jolliet, Marquette, Allouez). From this early period, there is no evidence that any language but Miami/Illinois employed the "skunk" word as a stand-alone absolute for a plant. In a compound, and found only much later, the word was used adjectively, but this is not surprising, as a handy word for "foul smelling". It seems to have referred to the Sympocarpus foetidus (skunk cabbage), not the Alium tricoccum. This use, and Leonard Bloomfield's data, are removed in time sufficiently that they are quite feeble as etymological support. Three reasons that Chicago was NOT named after the onions (that themselves were named with the same Miami/Illinois word as "skunk") are: (1) The first two decades of the many examples in texts and on maps show a spelling (with "Che-" and with no terminal "-a") that was NOT a regional (Miami/Illinois) word. (2) The texts and maps are clear that the word had an application to the corridor from the southwest corner of Lake Michigan to the Illinois River -- more than fifty miles. This has not previously been clarified. It is not compelling that the entire distance should have been named after a small onion area up near Lake Michigan. (3) That the onions were associated with the skunk-word in the Miami/Illinois language is seen in Le Boulanger's (c. 1720) French -- Miami/Illinois Dictionary. Although this is occasionally cited, what has not been cited, amazingly, is that next to the Chicago word, as it indicates our particular alium, is written quite clearly the word "abusive". Given the field of repulsive sensory experience conveyed by "skunk," and given the fact that other Indian words also appear next to the onion (garlic/leek) entry as other names for it, it is, accordingly, not difficult to conclude that Le Boulanger's "abusive" stood in the same relation to it as in our modern English dictionaries the words "slang," "offensive," or "vulgar" might appear next to a particular entry. It was maledicta -- here, perhaps a humorous verbal fraud -- a punning homonym on La Salle's word -- a linguistic hoax on the white eyes. To summarize the main findings, so far, of this etymological investigation: La Salle introduced, popularized and literally put Chicago on the map; earlier etymological attestations in a text (1680) and on a map (1684) have been identified; the 1714 English translation of Joutel initiated the typographical nasal locative error; Schoolcraft is responsible for the wide dissemination of it, plus he spread the idea that "Chi-," in this case, was equivalent to "great"; the area to which the word applied seems to have been too extensive to have been named for the onions in one small part of it; and considering Le Boulanger's dictionary, what the Indians told Joutel in 1687 may well have been punning maledicta on La Salle's "Checagou". Questions and comments welcome.To be continued. From carljweber at MSN.COM Mon Dec 17 17:44:48 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:44:48 -0600 Subject: Coon Etymology Message-ID: Douglas G. Wilson wrote: >The dictionaries show "coon" = person, man, as current at about this >time, but the most likely meaning for "cutter" (= an attractive girl) >comes from the 1870s. Are there other meanings? >I would speculate that "coon" and "cutter" refer not to persons but to pieces of equipment. A cutter >might be some type of cutting tool; coon is opaque to me. Both Coon and Cutter are reasonably >common surnames. I came across a quite reasonable etymology ten years go while looking through some Civil War Negro Spiritual music. The daughter of William Lloyd Garrison (the great American abolitionist), while tending to the needs of emancipated slaves on the Gullah Islands, anthologized Negro spirituals. She also made notes on the Gullah dialect. "Coon" was the name that the ex-slaves called each other, and she indicates that it is the word "cousin" as expressed through the dialect. (The vowel of "coon" maintaining the French pronunciation.) Cf. "bruhvuh" as a lex-bond. As with many terms that members of ethnic communities call each other, they descend into the pejorative. This maledicta observation renders null and void the folklore etymology (as I've heard it) that "coon" relates to the coon dogs that used to hunt the raccoon. And then, when the southern whites put these coon dogs to pursuing Negroes, and the word transferred. From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Mon Dec 17 17:55:34 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:55:34 -0000 Subject: the problem is is that... Message-ID: There was a discussion on this list a while back about is-is, and I just came across the following in an essay I'm marking. So I send it on in case anyone's collecting these: (2nd year linguistics undergrad, conclusion sentence for aphasiology essay) However, the problem is, is that this is all [that] is shown since neuro-linguistics is still a long way off from being able to identify exactly how syntax is encoded or how a word is represented. Does this get the prize for the most 'is's in a sentence? Obviously, this is not a student who's a careful editor/proofreader (note the missing 'that'), but the comma after the first 'is' makes 'the problem is is that' look fairly deliberate. Off to the States for Christmas...see some of you at the LSA. Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Mon Dec 17 18:20:32 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:20:32 -0500 Subject: the problem is is that... In-Reply-To: <46610613.3217600534@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: This is of interest to me, since I'm working on a long-promised paper on this and related constructions (and I will get it to you soon, Arnold!). Of course the double "is" is deliberate, and it's become extremely common (the other "is"s are totally unrelated and completely "normal" in context). The omission of the subject relative pronoun "that" may not be a matter of careless proofreading at all; this omission is common in some dialects of both BritEng (cf. Trudgill) and AmEng, including Appalachian English (and its fringe variety here in SE Ohio). So you have two different issues here, one a matter of general spread throughout the U.S. (and Britain?); George Bush has used it many times, but Robert Stockwell once told me that it was (at that time) very common in California and the West in general, and now I hear it frequently in the Eastern media as well. The other issue (deleted subj. rel. 'that') is not general but dialectal. At 05:55 PM 12/17/01 +0000, you wrote: >There was a discussion on this list a while back about is-is, and I just >came across the following in an essay I'm marking. So I send it on in case >anyone's collecting these: > >(2nd year linguistics undergrad, conclusion sentence for aphasiology essay) >However, the problem is, is that this is all [that] is shown since >neuro-linguistics is still a long way off from being able to identify >exactly how syntax is encoded or how a word is represented. > >Does this get the prize for the most 'is's in a sentence? Obviously, this >is not a student who's a careful editor/proofreader (note the missing >'that'), but the comma after the first 'is' makes 'the problem is is that' >look fairly deliberate. > >Off to the States for Christmas...see some of you at the LSA. > >Lynne > > >Dr M Lynne Murphy >Lecturer in Linguistics >Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics >School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences >University of Sussex >Brighton BN1 9QH >UK > >phone +44-(0)1273-678844 >fax +44-(0)1273-671320 _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 17 18:59:09 2001 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:59:09 -0500 Subject: the problem is is that In-Reply-To: <20011214124710.A17965@panix.com> Message-ID: Searching on the string "the problem is is that" on Altavista brings up over 700 hits, fyi. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 17 19:02:55 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:02:55 EST Subject: Barney Gallant & Greenwich Village Message-ID: From the NEW YORK TIMES, 24 June 1968, pg. 37, col. 1: _Bequests Recall Barney Gallant and Prohibition_ A half dozen small bequests to New York friends have disclosed the death of Barney Gallant, whose Greenwich Village speakeasies and night clubs spiced the city's life from Prohibition days through the mid-1940's. Mr. Gallant died March 16 in Miami, and is buried there in Star of David Cemetery. He would have been 84 years old on May 1. (He never married...Simon & Schuster was going to publish his memoirs, but never did...Barney--real name Bernard--came to this country from Riga in 1903...He managed the Greenwich Village Theater and put on "The Greenwich Village Follies." He also staged a SInclair Lewis short story, "Hobohemia"...The Greenwich Village Inn was at Sheridan Square.. Barney Gallant's was at West Third Street, and the Washington Square Club was at 19 Washington Square. His best known spot was 86 University Place...I hope George Thompson is writing this all down for a bio--ed.) HEARST INTERNATIONAL COMBINED WITH COSMOPOLITAN: July 1941, pg. 28, "The Vanishing Village" by Barney Gallant. "Here begins the story of fabulous Greenwich Village tucked away in the heart of Manhattan, where free souls made literary and artistic history--and headlines. The author knew them all, the experimenters of yesterday who are the great names of today, and here relates with color and verve the saga of America's only Bohemia. August 1941, pg. 48. September 1941, pg. 43. I'll let you know if I find "gay." The library's kicking me off the computer for my half-hour. From lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK Mon Dec 17 19:07:28 2001 From: lynnem at COGS.SUSX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:07:28 -0000 Subject: the problem is is that Message-ID: Someone just wrote (and I deleted too soon!) that 'the problem is is that' gets 700 hits on (I think) Altavista. I tried using Altavista for exact word matches a while ago and found that even though I'd put the words into quote marks, it still ignored the words that are not supposed to 'count' in a search, like 'the' and 'is'. I wrote to them complaining about this, so maybe it's fixed, but I'd be cautious about trusting that number with out checking the websites it's 'hitting'--especially the ones that are lower on the list. Lynne Dr M Lynne Murphy Lecturer in Linguistics Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences University of Sussex Brighton BN1 9QH UK phone +44-(0)1273-678844 fax +44-(0)1273-671320 From AAllan at AOL.COM Mon Dec 17 19:27:34 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:27:34 EST Subject: Recruitment opportunity Message-ID: Anybody want to tell her where she can take a course? Please e-mail her directly at annemris at space.com. - Allan Metcalf >>>I am studying for a Masters of Arts in Teaching and I need to take an undergraduate dialects class in order to become certified to teach English. I am finding that such courses (either at a school in my area or an online course) are difficult to find. Do you have a list of universities that offer courses on dialects? I would appreciate any information that ADS might have. Thank you for your time. Anne Risbridger Annapolis, MD phone 202-367-5211 email annemris at space.com<<< From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM Mon Dec 17 14:39:31 2001 From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:39:31 -0000 Subject: Dord Message-ID: There's one case of a deliberate error I know of, from the world of second language learners' dictionaries. The lexicographic community is small enough; the world of ESL/EFL lexicography is even smaller, and its practitioners in the 1980s had nearly all worked for all of the major houses--Longman, Oxford, and Collins. Needless to say, about the only thing that ensured that a given lexicographer's definition for given word would differ from the definition he or she had written the last time around was the individual house style. On top of that, innovative ideas that appeared in one house's flagship volume would be taken up by competitors in their next editions. When I was training under Michael Rundell, he used to get quite exercised over what he considered to be outright plagiarism of Longman content by Oxford. The lexicographers on the COBUILD project, the new kid on the block at the time, decided to test the plagiarism theory, and inserted the word "hink" into the entry list of the first edition. I think its meaning was given as "to think long and hard about something." The ploy was too obvious, and no one made the mistake of copying it; it was removed from the second edition. I'm sure there are a few hapless second language learners who only ever bought the first edition and still think it's a word. As junior lexicographers, however, I and the members of my team were taken with the idea of trying that stunt ourselves. In corpus searches, one of my British colleagues encountered the word "chiffonier," which she'd never seen before. She asked aloud if any of us had heard of it, pronouncing it as a French word (shi-fon-YAY). Not recognizing (shi-fon-EER) in that pronunciation, I said it sounded like a French term for someone in a house of haute couture whose job was dealing with chiffon. Once I saw the word written down I recognized it as the regional American term for a type of bedroom bureau, but we decided to give the spurious meaning as a second definition. Our senior editor caught it, though, and overruled its inclusion against our protests. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bergdahl" To: Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Dord > Aren't there also instances of 'words' inserted into dictionaries for the > purpose of catching plagiarists such as the $1.59/volume dictionaries that > used to be for sale in groceries? Certainly it would be worthwhile for > Merriam to look to see how many of these contain entries for 'dord.' > ___________________ > We are all New Yorkers > --Dominique Moisi > New York is America. We're all in this together > --Mayor Rudy Giuliani From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Mon Dec 17 19:51:32 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:51:32 -0500 Subject: Recruitment opportunity In-Reply-To: <36.20945ca9.294fa126@aol.com> Message-ID: Ohio University has courses on American dialects in both the Linguistics and the English departments. The English dept. course is required for certification in Ohio, I believe (Dave Bergdahl can check me on this). Both courses use Wolfram and Schilling-Estes' textbook. I don't offer the Linguistics course online or via distance lrng (not sold on it yet, since I want hands-on in-class work), but the English dept. version might. At 02:27 PM 12/17/01 -0500, you wrote: >Anybody want to tell her where she can take a course? Please e-mail her >directly at >annemris at space.com. - Allan Metcalf > > >>>I am studying for a Masters of Arts in Teaching and I need to take an >undergraduate dialects class in order to become certified to teach English. I >am finding that such courses (either at a school in my area or an online >course) are difficult to find. > >Do you have a list of universities that offer courses on dialects? I would >appreciate any information that ADS might have. > >Thank you for your time. > >Anne Risbridger >Annapolis, MD >phone 202-367-5211 >email annemris at space.com<<< _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From sharper1 at NC.RR.COM Mon Dec 17 20:06:38 2001 From: sharper1 at NC.RR.COM (Steve Harper) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:06:38 -0800 Subject: Pepperidge farm What? Message-ID: Interesting. My father owned a small grocery in suburban Cincinnati from the mid-40s until 1972. I remember that when we first got Pepperidge Farm bread in the 50s it was still shipped by Railway Express (did they ever use _American_ Express to deliver bread?), and the delivery man would bring it in in the large boxes in which he had received it. It sold very well, too. Regards, Steve Harper Fayetteville, NC >On Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:35:26 -0500 sagehen wrote. >>>From Bapopik's Table Talk post of 12/16: >>21 October 1939, pg. 31, col. 3--_Food Cue of the Week_--Pepperidge Farm >>Bread is >very much in the "for those who can afford and appreciate the >>best" tradition. It is >actually home baked at Pepperidge Farm, the >>country estate of one Mrs. Margaret >Rudkin up near Westport, and rushed >>to town via American Express between >midnight and dawn each morning. It >>comes in white and whole wheat and retails for >25 cents a loaf at >>Vendome, 415 Madison Ave., or at your local Gristede's. >~~~~~~~~~ >Can't imagine anyone saying this about the stuff that's sold under that >name today! >A. Murie From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 17 20:23:11 2001 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:23:11 -0500 Subject: the problem is is that In-Reply-To: <46870077.3217604848@blake.crn.cogs.susx.ac.uk> Message-ID: Lynne, I spot-checked a few of the hits and they were accurate, so maybe the problem has been fixed. Actually, I use Altavista all the time and have never encountered the problem of which you speak, for some reason. On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Lynne Murphy wrote: > Someone just wrote (and I deleted too soon!) that 'the problem is is that' > gets 700 hits on (I think) Altavista. I tried using Altavista for exact > word matches a while ago and found that even though I'd put the words into > quote marks, it still ignored the words that are not supposed to 'count' in > a search, like 'the' and 'is'. I wrote to them complaining about this, so > maybe it's fixed, but I'd be cautious about trusting that number with out > checking the websites it's 'hitting'--especially the ones that are lower on > the list. > > Lynne > > Dr M Lynne Murphy > Lecturer in Linguistics > Acting Director, MA in Applied Linguistics > School of Cognitive and Computing Sciences > University of Sussex > Brighton BN1 9QH > UK > > phone +44-(0)1273-678844 > fax +44-(0)1273-671320 > From fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU Mon Dec 17 20:28:14 2001 From: fortson at FAS.HARVARD.EDU (Benjamin Fortson) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:28:14 -0500 Subject: Recruitment opportunity In-Reply-To: <36.20945ca9.294fa126@aol.com> Message-ID: Harvard has an undergraduate course on dialects, Linguistics 80 "Dialects of English", taught by Bert Vaux. Ben On Mon, 17 Dec 2001 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote: > Anybody want to tell her where she can take a course? Please e-mail her > directly at > annemris at space.com. - Allan Metcalf > > >>>I am studying for a Masters of Arts in Teaching and I need to take an > undergraduate dialects class in order to become certified to teach English. I > am finding that such courses (either at a school in my area or an online > course) are difficult to find. > > Do you have a list of universities that offer courses on dialects? I would > appreciate any information that ADS might have. > > Thank you for your time. > > Anne Risbridger > Annapolis, MD > phone 202-367-5211 > email annemris at space.com<<< > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 17 07:46:55 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:46:55 +0800 Subject: Recruitment opportunity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We have one at Yale too (can't be outdone by Harvard, after all): Ling. 111, Dialects of English, co-taught (twice so far) by Dianne Jonas and me. But it's not on the books for next year, so I won't e-mail Ms. Risbridger. larry At 3:28 PM -0500 12/17/01, Benjamin Fortson wrote: >Harvard has an undergraduate course on dialects, Linguistics 80 "Dialects >of English", taught by Bert Vaux. > >Ben > >On Mon, 17 Dec 2001 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote: > >> Anybody want to tell her where she can take a course? Please e-mail her >> directly at >> annemris at space.com. - Allan Metcalf >> >> >>>I am studying for a Masters of Arts in Teaching and I need to take an >> undergraduate dialects class in order to become certified to teach >>English. I >> am finding that such courses (either at a school in my area or an online >> course) are difficult to find. >> >> Do you have a list of universities that offer courses on dialects? I would >> appreciate any information that ADS might have. >> > > Thank you for your time. From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU Mon Dec 17 21:08:04 2001 From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:08:04 -0500 Subject: Recruitment opportunity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Laurence Horn wrote: >We have one at Yale too (can't be outdone by Harvard, after all): >Ling. 111, Dialects of English, co-taught (twice so far) by Dianne All of us in the south are a little backward, of course, so at UT our dialects course is a 400-level course, English/Linguistics 472, American English, tought by me. It will be offered next Spring 2003. Bethany From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM Mon Dec 17 21:37:16 2001 From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:37:16 -0600 Subject: Recruitment opportunity In-Reply-To: <36.20945ca9.294fa126@aol.com> Message-ID: The University of Maryland has this course: LING 460 Diversity and Unity in Human Languages (3 credits) Fundamentals of grammatical typology as they relate to issues in social attitudes towards language. Linguistic structure of standard and non-standard languages and dialects. Relationship of different writing systems to linguistic structure. Issues in bilingualism and multilingualism. It looks like it would be ideal for a teacher; perhaps a little too structural. It's in the graduate catalog but it looks as if it is a class open to undergrads as well. Erin McKean editor at verbatimmag.com >Anybody want to tell her where she can take a course? Please e-mail her >directly at >annemris at space.com. - Allan Metcalf > >>>>I am studying for a Masters of Arts in Teaching and I need to take an >undergraduate dialects class in order to become certified to teach English. I >am finding that such courses (either at a school in my area or an online >course) are difficult to find. > >Do you have a list of universities that offer courses on dialects? I would >appreciate any information that ADS might have. > >Thank you for your time. > >Anne Risbridger >Annapolis, MD >phone 202-367-5211 >email annemris at space.com<<< From hstahlke at ATT.NET Mon Dec 17 21:47:41 2001 From: hstahlke at ATT.NET (hstahlke at ATT.NET) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:47:41 +0000 Subject: the problem is is that... Message-ID: Beverly, Are you also dealing with "the problem being is ..."? That's the one I hear more often here in Central Indiana. Herb > This is of interest to me, since I'm working on a long-promised paper on > this and related constructions (and I will get it to you soon, > Arnold!). Of course the double "is" is deliberate, and it's become > extremely common (the other "is"s are totally unrelated and completely > "normal" in context). > From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 17 22:24:19 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:24:19 -0500 Subject: Chicago Etymology Revisited In-Reply-To: <002c01c18719$e0be8900$48301342@computer> Message-ID: Maybe Carl Weber and Barry Popik should get together to produce a small monograph on the origins of "Chicago" and "Windy City." Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From jester at PANIX.COM Mon Dec 17 22:40:54 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 17:40:54 -0500 Subject: Camb. Hist. Eng. Lang. vol. VI Message-ID: I've just gotten what I assume is a hot-off-the-press copy of The Cambridge History of the English Language, Volume VI: English in North America, edited by John Algeo. I assume this book will be of great interest to most ADS-L members. Among the essays are Michael Montgomery on British and Irish Antecedents; Fred Cassidy and Joan Hall on Americanisms; Jonathan Lighter on Slang; Lee Pederson on Dialects; Sali Mufwene on African-American English; Ron Butters on Grammatical Structure; Ed Finegan on Usage, and Richard Bailey on American English Abroad. It is, unfortunately, very expensive, like the other volumes in the series, but perhaps CUP will be offering discounted copies at LDA/ADS. Jesse Sheidlower OED From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 17 23:49:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:49:45 EST Subject: "What, No Spinach?" Message-ID: Fred Shapiro has to have this line, or I'll throw him to Bluto. It's on the IMDB database for a film title from 1936. Google doesn't help much, but you can try it yourself. From "The Vanishing Village" by Barney Gallant, HEARST INTERNATIONAL/COSMOPOLITAN, August 1941, pg. 97, col. 1: Sonia ("the cigaret girl"--ed.) was among the first to celebrate the vitamin content of spinach. In her visits from restaurant to restaurant, she would examine the menus, and if her favorite vegetable were missing she would exclaim, "What, no spinach? This is a hell of a place, no spinach!" From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 18 00:00:59 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:00:59 EST Subject: How to Cook Potatoes, Apples, Eggs and Fish (1869) Message-ID: HOW TO COOK POTATOES, APPLES, EGGS AND FISH NEW YORK: DICK & FITZGERALD, PUBLISHERS 1869 Pg. 15: 33. SARATOGA POTATOES. Peel and shave the potatoes in very thin slices, put them on the ice, or in ice water until they are very cold. Put the frying pan over the fire, and while the butter or dripping is getting hot, drain and dry the sliced potatoes. When the fat begins to bubble, drop the potatoes in enough at a time to cover the bottom of the pan. Season them with salt and pepper, turn them over when browned, and when done drain them on a hair sieve for a few minutes, dish and serve. Pg. 138: 423. FISH A LA GENOISE. (Compare with "cioppino"--ed.) Clean, cut and bone any kind of sea-fish you can get; put the pieces into a stewpan, pepper them plentifully, and toss them in butter over the fire for about five minutes. Peel and cut into very thin rings some rather small onions, and an equal quantity of ripe tomatoes, quartered and divested of their pips; put the onions and tomatoes with the fish; simmer slowly until the onions begin to get tender; then arrange he fish round a dish, and pour the sauce in the middle. Pg. 129: 386. RED HERRINGS. (...) 389. FRENCH SARDINES OR TUNNY FISH. Take them out of the oil in which they are preserved, and pass them through yolk of egg seasoned with grated lemon-peel and white pepper, and fry them in oil or butter. From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 18 04:09:21 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:09:21 -0500 Subject: Bapopik@aol.com: Re: Chicago ety Message-ID: ----- Forwarded message from Bapopik at aol.com ----- Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 19:05:41 EST From: Bapopik at aol.com Subject: Fwd: Rejected posting to ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU To: X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) I can't even forward an ADS-L message to ADS-L! Oh well, never mind. --Barry Popik The American Name Society (post this on ANS-L!) has run articles on the name of "Chicago." I copied what the Chicago Historical Society has--there was a long study, but I don't know if it was Vogel (1958). On the "Windy City" front, I e-mailed my story to the Columbia Journalism Review. I had found the 1886 Chicago Tribune "Windy City" explanation while in the Columbia University Library. The "Windy City" myth involves a New York newspaper editor. Gerald Cohen (Comments on Etymology editor who published a "Windy City" article) graduated from Columbia. Columbia never wrote back. From conversa at IAC.NET Tue Dec 18 16:25:59 2001 From: conversa at IAC.NET (Conversa) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:25:59 -0500 Subject: subscribe Message-ID: I am an English teacher in China and saw your list at Conversa who subscribes to your list. If your list would be appropriate for an English teacher in China, please subscribe me at the email address below. Thank you. Luo Wei cleverida2001 at yahoo.com From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Dec 18 16:37:23 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:37:23 -0500 Subject: Southerns vs. southerners Message-ID: A few weeks before the passage quoted below, the editor of The Evening Star (Mordecai Noah) had reviewed a novel called The Kentuckian in New York, or, the Adventures or Three Southerns, published anonymously, as by "A Virginian". The paragraph below was preceeded by several paragraphs responding to the review, copied from an unnamed Georgia newspaper, but the specific remarks by the Georgia editor that prompted the paragraph I quote aren't included. Evidently since the book was published by Harper's, of New York City, the Georgia editor suspected that it was really by a Yankee. The author is in fact a Virginian, William Alexander Caruthers. Now read on. "As to the affectation which the editor charges in using the term Southerns, we would ask him for his authority in using Southerners. There is no authority on the subject except the Scotch, and it authorized Southrons. We had the authority of one of the most distinguished transatlantic female writers of the day for our term." Evening Star, July 2, 1834, p. 2, col. 4. I see that the earliest citations for Southerners, Southerns and Southrons given in the Dict of Americanisms are all from 1827 or 1828. DAE gives Southerns as first dated to 1834, and the subtitle of Kentuckian in New York is given as the source. George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From db.list at PMPKN.NET Tue Dec 18 17:06:19 2001 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:06:19 -0700 Subject: A resident of Provo? Message-ID: I figure that *somebody* on this list may know this one. I am in need of the one-word term for a resident of Provo (the town in Utah where Brigham Young University is located). Since i work in Provo, i figured i could just informally ask some natives of Provo what they call themselves, but i've gotten conflicting answers from them. So far i've gotten (approximately in order of descending frequency): Provoan, Provoite, Provonian, Provan, Provoer. About half the respondents have given Provoan, but some of the others have explicitly and spontaneously told me that whatever it is, it's *not* Provoan. I've looked in a few places where i'd expect to find answers to this sort of thing, and i've come up blank. (I don't even *want* to try to know what residents of Skull Valley, Utah are called! :-] ) Is this just a situation where i get to roll my own? David, who uses Waldorfian for residents of Waldorf, Maryland -- David Bowie Department of Linguistics Assistant Professor Brigham Young University db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Tue Dec 18 17:04:41 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:04:41 -0500 Subject: mocha Message-ID: I don't mean to move in on Barry's turf, but here is an early citation for a food word. I see that the OED has citations for "mocha" from 1773, 1819 and 1871, all from English sources. "Saunder's Divan, in Broadway, near Liberty-street, is really a most comfortable lounge. ? Most delicious mocha, distilled on a new principle ? all that the amateur can wish to revel upon in choice old gems of paintings ? the late periodicals ? the leading daily journals ? ottomans ? sofas ? chess and backgammon ? dos amigos, &c., together with a peep through the jalousies at the panorama of beauty and fashion in Broadway, all for a quarter of a dollar." Evening Star, September 27, 1834, p. 2, col. 2 I notice also that the OED has citations from 1766, 1824, 1833 and 1851 for "jalousie", all from English sources, as well as several cites from Elizabethan Italian-English dictionaries. I do not know what "dos amigos" means in this context. A game, like chess and backgammon, perhaps? I didn't check it in OED. The "Divan" was an up-scale barber-shop. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From AAllan at AOL.COM Tue Dec 18 17:15:30 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:15:30 EST Subject: A resident of Provo? Message-ID: Paul Dickson's _Labels for Locals_ (Merriam-Webster, 1997) gives: Provoan. No further comment or explanation. - Allan Metcalf From jester at PANIX.COM Tue Dec 18 17:23:43 2001 From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:23:43 -0500 Subject: mocha In-Reply-To: <1430f113f1.113f11430f@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 18, 2001 at 12:04:41PM -0500, George Thompson wrote: > I don't mean to move in on Barry's turf, but here is an early citation > for a food word. I see that the OED has citations for "mocha" from > 1773, 1819 and 1871, all from English sources. By now we have added cites from 1787, 1793, 1810, and 1838, so I'm afraid that we don't have the room for this one. Best, Jesse Sheidlower OED From hstahlke at ATT.NET Tue Dec 18 17:18:30 2001 From: hstahlke at ATT.NET (hstahlke at ATT.NET) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:18:30 +0000 Subject: Southerns vs. southerners Message-ID: I first came across "Southerns" in the writing of two of my undergraduates this semester, both Lower North women in their early twenties and from Central Indiana. What struck me with their usage was that it was in response to Dennis Preston's essay "They speak really bad English down South and in New York City" in Bauer and Trudgill's Language Myths, where he uses the term "Southerners" several times. Even after I pointed out their usage to them, they used it in their revisions. I'm curious how widely used "Southerns" is now. Herb Stahlke > A few weeks before the passage quoted below, the editor of The Evening > Star (Mordecai Noah) had reviewed a novel called The Kentuckian in New > York, or, the Adventures or Three Southerns, published anonymously, as > by "A Virginian". The paragraph below was preceeded by several > paragraphs responding to the review, copied from an unnamed Georgia > newspaper, but the specific remarks by the Georgia editor that prompted > the paragraph I quote aren't included. Evidently since the book was > published by Harper's, of New York City, the Georgia editor suspected > that it was really by a Yankee. The author is in fact a Virginian, > William Alexander Caruthers. > > Now read on. > > "As to the affectation which the editor charges in using the > term Southerns, we would ask him for his authority in using > Southerners. There is no authority on the subject except the Scotch, > and it authorized Southrons. We had the authority of one of the most > distinguished transatlantic female writers of the day for our term." > Evening Star, July 2, 1834, p. 2, col. 4. > > I see that the earliest citations for Southerners, Southerns and > Southrons given in the Dict of Americanisms are all from 1827 or 1828. > DAE gives Southerns as first dated to 1834, and the subtitle of > Kentuckian in New York is given as the source. > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Dec 18 17:55:23 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:55:23 -0500 Subject: A resident of Provo? In-Reply-To: <004b01c187e6$589a0040$0c53bb80@dtsnia.net> Message-ID: >OH NO! NOT VARIATION! NOT IN HUMAN LANGUAGE! AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!!!! DINIS >I figure that *somebody* on this list may know this one. > >I am in need of the one-word term for a resident of Provo (the town in Utah >where Brigham Young University is located). Since i work in Provo, i figured >i could just informally ask some natives of Provo what they call themselves, >but i've gotten conflicting answers from them. So far i've gotten >(approximately in order of descending frequency): Provoan, Provoite, >Provonian, Provan, Provoer. About half the respondents have given Provoan, >but some of the others have explicitly and spontaneously told me that >whatever it is, it's *not* Provoan. > >I've looked in a few places where i'd expect to find answers to this sort of >thing, and i've come up blank. > >(I don't even *want* to try to know what residents of Skull Valley, Utah are >called! :-] ) > >Is this just a situation where i get to roll my own? > >David, who uses Waldorfian for residents of Waldorf, Maryland >-- >David Bowie Department of Linguistics >Assistant Professor Brigham Young University >db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx > The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Tue Dec 18 05:00:14 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:00:14 +0800 Subject: A resident of Provo? In-Reply-To: <004b01c187e6$589a0040$0c53bb80@dtsnia.net> Message-ID: At 10:06 AM -0700 12/18/01, David Bowie wrote: >I figure that *somebody* on this list may know this one. > >I am in need of the one-word term for a resident of Provo (the town in Utah >where Brigham Young University is located). Since i work in Provo, i figured >i could just informally ask some natives of Provo what they call themselves, >but i've gotten conflicting answers from them. So far i've gotten >(approximately in order of descending frequency): Provoan, Provoite, >Provonian, Provan, Provoer. About half the respondents have given Provoan, >but some of the others have explicitly and spontaneously told me that >whatever it is, it's *not* Provoan. > no votes for Provosts? I always wondered where they came from... L From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Tue Dec 18 18:35:34 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:35:34 -0500 Subject: A resident of Provo? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, I know where provosts come from (and so do you). How about Provolones? dInIs >At 10:06 AM -0700 12/18/01, David Bowie wrote: >>I figure that *somebody* on this list may know this one. >> >>I am in need of the one-word term for a resident of Provo (the town in Utah >>where Brigham Young University is located). Since i work in Provo, i figured >>i could just informally ask some natives of Provo what they call themselves, >>but i've gotten conflicting answers from them. So far i've gotten >>(approximately in order of descending frequency): Provoan, Provoite, >>Provonian, Provan, Provoer. About half the respondents have given Provoan, >>but some of the others have explicitly and spontaneously told me that >>whatever it is, it's *not* Provoan. >> >no votes for Provosts? > >I always wondered where they came from... > >L From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Tue Dec 18 18:41:22 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:41:22 -0800 Subject: A resident of Provo? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Provocateurs? --sorry. allen maberry at u.washington.edu On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > larry, > > I know where provosts come from (and so do you). How about Provolones? > > dInIs > From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Tue Dec 18 18:44:09 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:44:09 -0800 Subject: A resident of Provo? Message-ID: i suppose Provisionals (Provos, for short) would be too Provocative. arnold From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU Tue Dec 18 18:47:14 2001 From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:47:14 -0500 Subject: A resident of Provo? Message-ID: Would a guided tour of the city then be led by a Provodnik? --even sorry-er. "A. Maberry" wrote: > > Provocateurs? > --sorry. > > allen > maberry at u.washington.edu > > On Tue, 18 Dec 2001, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > > > larry, > > > > I know where provosts come from (and so do you). How about Provolones? > > > > dInIs > > From juengling_fritz at SMTPGATE.SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US Tue Dec 18 19:04:01 2001 From: juengling_fritz at SMTPGATE.SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:04:01 -0800 Subject: A resident of Provo? Message-ID: How about "RM"? Fritz Juengling >>> David Bowie 12/18/01 09:06AM >>> I figure that *somebody* on this list may know this one. I am in need of the one-word term for a resident of Provo (the town in Utah where Brigham Young University is located). Since i work in Provo, i figured i could just informally ask some natives of Provo what they call themselves, but i've gotten conflicting answers from them. So far i've gotten (approximately in order of descending frequency): Provoan, Provoite, Provonian, Provan, Provoer. About half the respondents have given Provoan, but some of the others have explicitly and spontaneously told me that whatever it is, it's *not* Provoan. I've looked in a few places where i'd expect to find answers to this sort of thing, and i've come up blank. (I don't even *want* to try to know what residents of Skull Valley, Utah are called! :-] ) Is this just a situation where i get to roll my own? David, who uses Waldorfian for residents of Waldorf, Maryland -- David Bowie Department of Linguistics Assistant Professor Brigham Young University db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx The opinions stated here are not necessarily those of my employer From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Tue Dec 18 20:24:50 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:24:50 -0500 Subject: CUT A CHECK, ANYONE? Message-ID: Good to have a response; thanks David. However, for me, BDC and OED belong to a different world. Incidentally, is there a good formal definition of "cut a check" in your dictionaries or anywhere else? My own collection of dictionaries is not very comprehensive. Definitions are a necessary evil for me but the shorter the sweeter, like those given in the Cambridge International Dictionary of English, supposedly for "learners." Happy Holidays. TOM. Barnhart wrote: > > t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA,Net writes: > .... Personally, I'd like to see a dictionary that has more of good > >contemporary idiomatic English text and less of the abstract kind of > >definitions and which can be searched like Google. In > dictionary-making, > >text should increase, "definitions" should decrease. End of > self-serving > >lecture. > > > > Rather like you find in The Barnhart Dictionary Companion? > > End of my self-serving response. > > Happy Holidays to all, > David > > barnhart at highlands.com From carljweber at MSN.COM Tue Dec 18 20:50:31 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:50:31 -0600 Subject: Chicago Etymology Revisited Message-ID: --Barry Popik wrote < The American Name Society (post this on ANS-L!) has run articles on the name of "Chicago." I copied what the Chicago Historical Society has--there was a long study, but I don't know if it was Vogel (1958). On the "Windy City" front, I e-mailed my story to the Columbia Journalism Review. I had found the 1886 Chicago Tribune "Windy City" explanation while in the Columbia University Library. The "Windy City" myth involves a New York newspaper editor. Gerald Cohen (Comments on Etymology editor who published a "Windy City" article) graduated from Columbia. Columbia never wrote back. < "Windy City" because NY considered upstart Chi town full of hot air (i.e. blusterous) in vying for the Columbian Expo. That's a myth? ----------------- (I hope my FULL 'Chicago Etymology Revisited' post got through. It's over on Linguist, too, however, where it seems to wrap right. I haven't figured this stuff out yet -- I'm no poster boy poster boy.) I've been doing Chicago Etymology (as I familiarly call it) for five (yikes!) years, the last few, in a high gear. Mr. Lewis of the Chicago Historical Society has, for some time, been following and encouraging my work, as well as has the Alliance Francaise, Chicago -- where, as a result of what I've learned cross-discipline in my Chicago Etymology investigations, I direct a group in the French Colonial sequence of regional history. Investigating the source materials, I've made a number of discoveries and devised some new historical spins. I've been going over the linguistics, history, cartography, and the Indian and explorers material in painful detail, and believe that I've not only touched all the (available) bases, but've found and invented new ones sufficient to make Chicago Etymology a new ball game. Vogel (1958) and Swenson (1991) are the standing authorities on the etymology, however, neither had knowledge of linguistics (morphemes, phonemes, minimal pairs, etc.). Nor did they of the historical narratives; nor the cartography (and a picture's WATW). Accordingly, they were hardly rigorous, and contribute to making, I'm sorry to have to use the words, a bigger mess than already existed in this etymological provenance. I pretty well expended my summary load -- in 'Chicago Etymology Revisted' - of my last year-and-a-half of investigation. After these five years, I can't (gulp!) tell you what the etymology is; I can only, with reasonable confidence, tell you what it isn't. I DO have directions for further research, which I'm seriously contemplating. I invite comments and technical questions. Carl Jeffrey Weber From Ittaob at AOL.COM Tue Dec 18 21:11:49 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:11:49 EST Subject: Chicago Etymology Revisited Message-ID: Italian speakers often chuckle when they hear "Chicago." In Italian, the homonym for Chicago -- "ci cago" -- means "I crap there." Steve Boatti From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Tue Dec 18 22:52:03 2001 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:52:03 -0600 Subject: Chicago Etymology Revisited In-Reply-To: <188.ac1eaa.29510b15@aol.com> Message-ID: I was told by a Portuguese gentleman that in Portuguese it sounds like "he crapped on himself" -- of course when spoken with Portuguese stress and vowels. DMLance > From: Ittaob at AOL.COM > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:11:49 EST > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Chicago Etymology Revisited > > Italian speakers often chuckle when they hear "Chicago." In Italian, the > homonym for Chicago -- "ci cago" -- means "I crap there." > > Steve Boatti > From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Tue Dec 18 22:54:05 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:54:05 -0500 Subject: the problem is is that... In-Reply-To: <20011217214742.ESMJ7926.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@webmail .worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: I don't think I've heard that one, but the related "the reason being is ..." is consistently used by a former student from Dayton, as well as by a few others I've randomly taken note of. I'd appreciate comments by others on these two constructions! At 09:47 PM 12/17/01 +0000, you wrote: >Beverly, > >Are you also dealing with "the problem being is ..."? >That's the one I hear more often here in Central Indiana. > >Herb > > This is of interest to me, since I'm working on a long-promised paper on > > this and related constructions (and I will get it to you soon, > > Arnold!). Of course the double "is" is deliberate, and it's become > > extremely common (the other "is"s are totally unrelated and completely > > "normal" in context). > > _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From carljweber at MSN.COM Tue Dec 18 23:59:57 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:59:57 -0600 Subject: Chicago Etymology Revisited Message-ID: > Italian speakers often chuckle when they hear "Chicago." In Italian, the > homonym for Chicago -- "ci cago" -- means "I crap there." > > Steve Boatti --------------- >I was told by a Portuguese gentleman that in Portuguese it sounds like "he >crapped on himself" -- of course when spoken with Portuguese stress and >vowels. >DMLance --------------- Two things. First, #2: An essay I wrote DID pick up on the "-kaka" early in my investigation, the better to rule out an IndoEuropean cognate, should it arise, as it has. My paper was at the ready. As for #1: IF Chicago' name were from the Proto-Algonquian meaning "skunk" (and in the Miami/Illinois also, by extension, a particular sometimes-foul smelling onion/leek/garlic -- it would break down as URINE+small animal +stem extender+gender marker (Siebert's analysis). It would also be, as such, a homonym for La Salle's "Checagou," the original form. The Indian's word was an item of maledicta, the Indian pulling a linguistic hoax on Henri Joutel in late 1687. Le Boulanger in 1720 calling the Chicago-word, when used for the onions, "abusive." Carl Jeffrey Weber From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Wed Dec 19 00:12:34 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:12:34 EST Subject: dord Message-ID: In a message dated 12/17/2001 10:21:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM writes: > The Third International's chateaubriand sense 1, which, by some > strange coincidence also appeared in a dictionary established for > the express purpose of correcting W3! This sounds like an interesting story. Could you please explain further? - Jim Landau From wilsonw at NCTIMES.NET Wed Dec 19 02:34:35 2001 From: wilsonw at NCTIMES.NET (william c. wilson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:34:35 -0800 Subject: Daily basis Message-ID: Please, for the love of whatever you love, make the dreaded phrase: "Daily basis" go away forever, along with its ugly sisters, "regular basis and periodic basis". Thank you! From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Wed Dec 19 03:59:16 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:59:16 -0600 Subject: Southerns vs. southerners Message-ID: >I see that the earliest citations for Southerners, Southerns and Southrons >given in the Dict of Americanisms are all from 1827 or 1828. All of these are variations on a genuine ethnonym. 'Southron' is the one that interests me. I think it is a *deliberate* misspelling, and equally, a *deliberate* 'mispronunciation', when one considers the rules that govern r-dropping. There are many patriotic Southerners who are actually glad the South lost the Civil War, much in the same way many patriotic Scots are glad Bonnie Prince Charlie's rebellion failed. History would have been less bless?d. The South and North would have been mutually poorer, just as England and Scotland would have been mutually poorer. As the historians and re-enacters will tell you, the late unpleasentness was not so much the North winning as the South losing. Missionary Ridge is impossible to understand except in the personality of Braxton Bragg and Jeff Davis' perverse trust in him; the two together lost the War Between the States. Yeah, my ggg-grandpappy was a Southron who got himself killed (pretty much beside General Zollicoffer) for his country 19 Jan 1862. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com From t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Wed Dec 19 05:36:47 2001 From: t20mxs1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (Mike Salovesh) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 23:36:47 -0600 Subject: Chicago Etymology Revisited Message-ID: carljweber wrote: > > > Italian speakers often chuckle when they hear "Chicago." In Italian, > > the homonym for Chicago -- "ci cago" -- means "I crap there." > > > > Steve Boatti > --------------- > > I was told by a Portuguese gentleman that in Portuguese it sounds > > like "he crapped on himself" -- of course when spoken with Portuguese stress > > and vowels. > >DMLance > --------------- In Mexico's southeast corner, the state of Chiapas, I heard the cognate Spanish pun on the last two syllables in a wild variety of jokes about my home. When folks tired of that one, they'd ask me if I'd ever considered moving to the big city: chica go sounds so diminutive compared with go grande. -- mike salovesh PEACE !!! From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Dec 19 13:01:48 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:01:48 -0500 Subject: Daily basis In-Reply-To: <3C1FFCBA.8D66C022@nctimes.net> Message-ID: Sorry Bill. Just can't do it; we love language too much to do away with parts of it. dInIs >Please, for the love of whatever you love, make the dreaded phrase: >"Daily basis" go away forever, along with its ugly sisters, "regular >basis and periodic basis". > >Thank you! -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 19 01:47:30 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:47:30 +0800 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... Message-ID: ...anyone else in the relevant dialect: We've spent some sporadic time discussing the construction extant in parts of the South and Appalachia variously referred to as the "Personal Dative" (Christian 1991), "Southern American Double Object" (Dannenberg & Webelhuth 2000), dialectal or bound pronominal (e.g. Sroda & Mishoe 1995), or ethical dative (various sources). This involves the appearance immediately after the main verb of an ordinary objective pronoun (rather than a reflexive) coreferring with the subject; generally a "real" object must also be present, and it must be quantified. The verb in question is not normally a ditransitive. Some sample cites (in each case, coreference between subject and "dative" is assumed): [musical exx.] I married me a pretty little wife I'm gonna buy me a shotgun, just as long as I am tall. I'm gonna catch me a freight train. Get you a copper kettle, get you a copper coil. [underlying 2d person subject] [non-musical exx.] He's gonna buy him a pickup. I seen me a mermaid once. She wants her some chitlins. Papa needs him some new boots. What I like is goats. I jus' like to look at me some goats. [title of Sroda & Mishoe 1995] Now the query: On the assumption that the pronoun in question is not a true object of the verb but a marker implicating that the action or event in question represents success/good fortune for the subject, I've been wondering if the following judgments (from this non-native speaker) are on- or off-base. (Feel free to replace these with clearer examples of your own.) (1) *She fed her some chitlins. (2)a. *She gave her a big raise. (vs. pandialectally OK: She gave herself a big raise.) b. She got her a big raise. (3)a. *I caught me a cold. [or maybe OK if I was trying to catch a cold?] b. I caught me a catfish. (4)a. He shot him two squirrels. b. *He (got drunk and) shot him two coonhounds (by mistake). (5)a. He got him a case of beer. b. *He got him a case of the clap. Thanks for your time & judgments. larry From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Dec 19 15:45:04 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:45:04 EST Subject: Shiver me timbers? Message-ID: >>> I am aware that this is probably not exactly in your line of work, but I am wondering where the phrase "Shiver me Timbers" came from. Is there anyone that could possibly tell me the answer to this question. Respectfully, Robert Ballard, Hyannis, Massachusetts<<<< If you know about this, please e-mail him directly: 3232 at MediaOne.Net as well as ADS-L. Thanks - Allan Metcalf From gcohen at UMR.EDU Wed Dec 19 15:50:19 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:50:19 -0600 Subject: Query: "Creek don't rise" Message-ID: I have received the following query about "the creek/Creek don't rise"; I think an ADS-L message once mentioned that the original reference was to the Creek Indians, but I somehow can't locate it in the archives. Might someone be able to verify the Indian reference? ---Gerald Cohen > What do you know about the origin of the expression "the Lord >willing and the creek (or creeks) don't rise." I had always assumed >that it referred to high water, but someone suggested that it refers >to the Creek Indian Nation in Alabama and Georgia before their >removal under Andrew Jackson's administration. I haven't found out >anything about it. Can you? Or do you know right off the bat? From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU Wed Dec 19 16:26:18 2001 From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 08:26:18 -0800 Subject: the problem is is that... In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20011218175052.03c4aef0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: I had a friend who consistently said, "The point being is...." Interestingly, he lives in Yellow Springs (near Dayton). Peter --On Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:54 PM -0500 Beverly Flanigan wrote: > I don't think I've heard that one, but the related "the reason being is > ..." is consistently used by a former student from Dayton, as well as by a > few others I've randomly taken note of. I'd appreciate comments by others > on these two constructions! > > At 09:47 PM 12/17/01 +0000, you wrote: >> Beverly, >> >> Are you also dealing with "the problem being is ..."? >> That's the one I hear more often here in Central Indiana. >> >> Herb >> > This is of interest to me, since I'm working on a long-promised paper >> > on this and related constructions (and I will get it to you soon, >> > Arnold!). Of course the double "is" is deliberate, and it's become >> > extremely common (the other "is"s are totally unrelated and completely >> > "normal" in context). >> > > > > _____________________________________________ > Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics > Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 > Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 > http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm **************************************************************************** Peter A. McGraw Linfield College * McMinnville, OR pmcgraw at linfield.edu From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 19 17:32:51 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:32:51 -0500 Subject: Antedating of "Heavy Metal" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The earliest citation in the OED relating to the musical sense of "heavy metal" is from William Burroughs in 1964. Here is an earlier Burroughs usage I have found: 1962 William S. Burroughs _The Ticket That Exploded_ 39 The Other Half was only one aspect of Operation Rewrite--Heavy Metal addicts picketed the Rewrite Office, exploding in protest. Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Wed Dec 19 17:49:46 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:49:46 -0500 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... Message-ID: I guess that's me... I think you may be onto something here. In general, I agree with the judgments, however, 1 and 2a are much less acceptable to me than 3a, 4b, and 5b. The verb seems to be the culprit, i.e. 1b "She ate her some chitlins" would be fine, even for someone for whom eating chitlins is not particularly indicative of good fortune. Ellen Ellen Johnson Assistant Professor of Linguistics Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing Berry College, Box 350 Mt. Berry, GA 30149 706-368-5638 http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ ejohnson at berry.edu -----Original Message----- From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 8:48 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... ...anyone else in the relevant dialect: We've spent some sporadic time discussing the construction extant in parts of the South and Appalachia variously referred to as the "Personal Dative" (Christian 1991), "Southern American Double Object" (Dannenberg & Webelhuth 2000), dialectal or bound pronominal (e.g. Sroda & Mishoe 1995), or ethical dative (various sources). This involves the appearance immediately after the main verb of an ordinary objective pronoun (rather than a reflexive) coreferring with the subject; generally a "real" object must also be present, and it must be quantified. The verb in question is not normally a ditransitive. Some sample cites (in each case, coreference between subject and "dative" is assumed): [musical exx.] I married me a pretty little wife I'm gonna buy me a shotgun, just as long as I am tall. I'm gonna catch me a freight train. Get you a copper kettle, get you a copper coil. [underlying 2d person subject] [non-musical exx.] He's gonna buy him a pickup. I seen me a mermaid once. She wants her some chitlins. Papa needs him some new boots. What I like is goats. I jus' like to look at me some goats. [title of Sroda & Mishoe 1995] Now the query: On the assumption that the pronoun in question is not a true object of the verb but a marker implicating that the action or event in question represents success/good fortune for the subject, I've been wondering if the following judgments (from this non-native speaker) are on- or off-base. (Feel free to replace these with clearer examples of your own.) (1) *She fed her some chitlins. (2)a. *She gave her a big raise. (vs. pandialectally OK: She gave herself a big raise.) b. She got her a big raise. (3)a. *I caught me a cold. [or maybe OK if I was trying to catch a cold?] b. I caught me a catfish. (4)a. He shot him two squirrels. b. *He (got drunk and) shot him two coonhounds (by mistake). (5)a. He got him a case of beer. b. *He got him a case of the clap. Thanks for your time & judgments. larry From lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU Wed Dec 19 17:57:59 2001 From: lancedm at MISSOURI.EDU (Donald M Lance) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:57:59 -0600 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All these starred items could (as you imply in 3a) be possible if surrounded by verbal context that would set them up as 'her' being equivalent to 'herself'. Even so, the result is irony, particularly in 5b. The syntactic violation marks the irony even without suprasegmental or kinesic signaling. The culture would call for deadpan kinesics for irony anyway. DMLance > (1) *She fed her some chitlins. > > (2)a. *She gave her a big raise. (vs. pandialectally OK: She gave > herself a big raise.) > b. She got her a big raise. > > (3)a. *I caught me a cold. [or maybe OK if I was trying to catch a cold?] > b. I caught me a catfish. > > (4)a. He shot him two squirrels. > b. *He (got drunk and) shot him two coonhounds (by mistake). > > (5)a. He got him a case of beer. > b. *He got him a case of the clap. > From: Laurence Horn > Reply-To: American Dialect Society > Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:47:30 +0800 > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... > > ...anyone else in the relevant dialect: > > We've spent some sporadic time discussing the construction extant in > parts of the South and Appalachia variously referred to as the > "Personal Dative" (Christian 1991), "Southern American Double Object" > (Dannenberg & Webelhuth 2000), dialectal or bound pronominal (e.g. > Sroda & Mishoe 1995), or ethical dative (various sources). This > involves the appearance immediately after the main verb of an > ordinary objective pronoun (rather than a reflexive) coreferring with > the subject; generally a "real" object must also be present, and it > must be quantified. The verb in question is not normally a > ditransitive. Some sample cites (in each case, coreference between > subject and "dative" is assumed): > > [musical exx.] > I married me a pretty little wife > I'm gonna buy me a shotgun, just as long as I am tall. > I'm gonna catch me a freight train. > Get you a copper kettle, get you a copper coil. [underlying 2d person > subject] > > [non-musical exx.] > He's gonna buy him a pickup. > I seen me a mermaid once. > She wants her some chitlins. > Papa needs him some new boots. > What I like is goats. I jus' like to look at me some goats. [title > of Sroda & Mishoe 1995] > > Now the query: > > On the assumption that the pronoun in question is not a true object > of the verb but a marker implicating that the action or event in > question represents success/good fortune for the subject, I've been > wondering if the following judgments (from this non-native speaker) > are on- or off-base. (Feel free to replace these with clearer > examples of your own.) > > (1) *She fed her some chitlins. > > (2)a. *She gave her a big raise. (vs. pandialectally OK: She gave > herself a big raise.) > b. She got her a big raise. > > (3)a. *I caught me a cold. [or maybe OK if I was trying to catch a cold?] > b. I caught me a catfish. > > (4)a. He shot him two squirrels. > b. *He (got drunk and) shot him two coonhounds (by mistake). > > (5)a. He got him a case of beer. > b. *He got him a case of the clap. > > Thanks for your time & judgments. > > larry > From grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET Wed Dec 19 17:51:20 2001 From: grant.barrett at VERIZON.NET (Grant Barrett) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:51:20 -0500 Subject: BBC's Words of 2001 Message-ID: The BBC has a feature called "e-cyclopedia: The words behind the headlines." "Many of the defining moments of 2001 spawned their own words and phrases. At year's end, we take stock of these additions to the news lexicon." http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1717000/1717136.stm From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Dec 19 18:05:23 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:05:23 EST Subject: Words of the Year voting Message-ID: With Webmaster Grand Barrett's assistance, we now have an advance announcement of the Words of the Year vote on the ADS website: http://www.americandialect.org/ It includes a list of candidates proposed by Wayne Glowka. Y'all come and help with the vote! - Allan Metcalf From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 19 05:10:57 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:10:57 +0800 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Re my: (1) *She fed her some chitlins. (2)a. *She gave her a big raise. (vs. pandialectally OK: She gave herself a big raise.) b. She got her a big raise. (3)a. *I caught me a cold. [or maybe OK if I was trying to catch a cold?] b. I caught me a catfish. (4)a. He shot him two squirrels. b. *He (got drunk and) shot him two coonhounds (by mistake). (5)a. He got him a case of beer. b. *He got him a case of the clap. At 12:49 PM -0500 12/19/01, Ellen Johnson wrote: >I guess that's me... > >I think you may be onto something here. In general, I agree with the >judgments, however, 1 and 2a are much less acceptable to me than 3a, 4b, >and 5b. Great; the prediction would be that the former two are out on grammatical grounds, while the latter ones are out pragmatically. >The verb seems to be the culprit, i.e. 1b "She ate her some >chitlins" would be fine, even for someone for whom eating chitlins is >not particularly indicative of good fortune. well, in this case, it would be successful fulfillment of an intention rather than necessarily good fortune. The paraphrase for non-Southern speakers might be "managed to..." The difference between "feed" and "eat" would be that "feed" must have an (indirect) object (*I fed some chitlins), and the "me" here doesn't count as an object. and At 11:57 AM -0600 12/19/01, Donald M Lance wrote: >All these starred items could (as you imply in 3a) be possible if surrounded >by verbal context that would set them up as 'her' being equivalent to >'herself'. Even so, the result is irony, particularly in 5b. The syntactic >violation marks the irony even without suprasegmental or kinesic signaling. >The culture would call for deadpan kinesics for irony anyway. > Right. Again, "manage to" would work the same way: "He managed to get a case of the clap (to fall down the stairs, to get himself shot,...)" implies that he was trying to do so. Thanks to both of you for the help. larry From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Wed Dec 19 20:26:46 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:26:46 -0500 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm mostly in agreement so far, but "managed to": does not for me imply intending or trying. Sentences like "Well, you managed to go get yourself in trouble again" imply that you have been inattentive, imprudent, etc...., but not that you set out to get yourself in trouble. Maybe originally ironic, but I doubt if that obtains now in this construction. My only other small quibble is with Don;s suggestion that the (only?) accompanying kinetic-physiological stance for ironic delivery in this vareety is deadpan (though I don't doubt its frequency). dInIs >Re my: > >(1) *She fed her some chitlins. > >(2)a. *She gave her a big raise. (vs. pandialectally OK: She gave >herself a big raise.) > b. She got her a big raise. > >(3)a. *I caught me a cold. [or maybe OK if I was trying to catch a cold?] > b. I caught me a catfish. > >(4)a. He shot him two squirrels. > b. *He (got drunk and) shot him two coonhounds (by mistake). > >(5)a. He got him a case of beer. > b. *He got him a case of the clap. > > >At 12:49 PM -0500 12/19/01, Ellen Johnson wrote: >>I guess that's me... >> >>I think you may be onto something here. In general, I agree with the >>judgments, however, 1 and 2a are much less acceptable to me than 3a, 4b, >>and 5b. > >Great; the prediction would be that the former two are out on >grammatical grounds, while the latter ones are out pragmatically. > >>The verb seems to be the culprit, i.e. 1b "She ate her some >>chitlins" would be fine, even for someone for whom eating chitlins is >>not particularly indicative of good fortune. > >well, in this case, it would be successful fulfillment of an >intention rather than necessarily good fortune. The paraphrase for >non-Southern speakers might be "managed to..." The difference >between "feed" and "eat" would be that "feed" must have an (indirect) >object (*I fed some chitlins), and the "me" here doesn't count as an >object. > >and >At 11:57 AM -0600 12/19/01, Donald M Lance wrote: >>All these starred items could (as you imply in 3a) be possible if surrounded >>by verbal context that would set them up as 'her' being equivalent to >>'herself'. Even so, the result is irony, particularly in 5b. The syntactic >>violation marks the irony even without suprasegmental or kinesic signaling. >>The culture would call for deadpan kinesics for irony anyway. >> >Right. Again, "manage to" would work the same way: "He managed to >get a case of the clap (to fall down the stairs, to get himself >shot,...)" implies that he was trying to do so. > >Thanks to both of you for the help. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From lynnhatt at UIC.EDU Wed Dec 19 20:13:54 2001 From: lynnhatt at UIC.EDU (Lynn C. Hattendorf Westney) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:13:54 -0600 Subject: I found this citation re Chicago Names but not from NAMES--just fyi Message-ID: TI: Title Transferred and Figurative Use of the American Place Name Chicago in English, French, Georgian, Russian, and Spanish; and of the American Place Name Manhattan in German and Spanish AU: Author Gold, David L SO: Source Beitrage zur Namenforschung, 2000, 35, 3, 319-324 IS: ISSN 0005-8114 CD: CODEN BNAMF9 AB: Abstract Because Chicago gained notoriety during the 1920s, 1930s, & 1940s as a crime-ridden city & because Manhattan is known for its tall buildings, the names of these two cities have acquired figurative meanings not only in English but also in several of the world's languages. This note discusses the figurative use of those names. 11 References. Adapted from the source document LA: Language English PY: Publication Year 2000 PT: Publication Type Abstract of Journal Article (aja) CP: Country of Publication Germany, Republic of DE: Descriptors *Toponymy (90550); *United States of America (92750); *Connotation (14800); *Rhetorical Figures (73400); English (21900); French (25750); Caucasian Languages (11200); German (27700); Spanish (81800); Russian (74450) CL: Classification 5119 descriptive linguistics; onomastics UD: Update 200104 AN: Accession Number 200103654 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Wed Dec 19 07:46:45 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:46:45 +0800 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 3:26 PM -0500 12/19/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >I'm mostly in agreement so far, but "managed to": does not for me >imply intending or trying. Sentences like "Well, you managed to go >get yourself in trouble again" imply that you have been inattentive, >imprudent, etc...., but not that you set out to get yourself in >trouble. Maybe originally ironic, but I doubt if that obtains now in >this construction. > For me, the ironic sense is still palpable in those cases. I could live with "succeeded in Ving" rather than "managed to V" if the irony hasn't frozen with the former for you. For me, "He managed to get the clap" and "He succeeded in getting the clap" are both pretty ironic. larry From MAdams1448 at AOL.COM Thu Dec 20 00:07:22 2001 From: MAdams1448 at AOL.COM (Michael Adams) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:07:22 EST Subject: Lexicography Discussion Group Meeting at MLA Message-ID: There will not be a session sponsored by the MLA Lexicography Discussion Group at the MLA convention this year. The Discussion Group will hold a business meeting, however, and all interested MLA members are urged to attend. The meeting will be held on Friday, 28 December 2001, from 2:00-3:00, in the Ponchartrain Ballroom D, in the Sheraton. Besides discussing next year's convention program, we need to elect two members to the Discussion Group's executive committee -- if you are interested in serving lexicography in this capacity, please let me know in advance of the meeting. I hope to see all members of this list who are attending the MLA convention at the meeting. Sincerely Yours, Michael Adams MAdams1448 at aol.com From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Dec 20 00:18:59 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:18:59 -0500 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, I understand your feel for these, but I am sure that for me succeeded is unquestionably ironic but managed is not. dInIs >At 3:26 PM -0500 12/19/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>I'm mostly in agreement so far, but "managed to": does not for me >>imply intending or trying. Sentences like "Well, you managed to go >>get yourself in trouble again" imply that you have been inattentive, >>imprudent, etc...., but not that you set out to get yourself in >>trouble. Maybe originally ironic, but I doubt if that obtains now in >>this construction. >> >For me, the ironic sense is still palpable in those cases. I could >live with "succeeded in Ving" rather than "managed to V" if the irony >hasn't frozen with the former for you. For me, "He managed to get >the clap" and "He succeeded in getting the clap" are both pretty >ironic. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Thu Dec 20 02:09:23 2001 From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 18:09:23 -0800 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... Message-ID: larry horn: >At 3:26 PM -0500 12/19/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >>I'm mostly in agreement so far, but "managed to": does not for me >>imply intending or trying. Sentences like "Well, you managed to go >>get yourself in trouble again" imply that you have been >>inattentive, imprudent, etc...., but not that you set out to get >>yourself in trouble. Maybe originally ironic, but I doubt if that >>obtains now in this construction. >For me, the ironic sense is still palpable in those cases. I could >live with "succeeded in Ving" rather than "managed to V" if the >irony hasn't frozen with the former for you. For me, "He managed to >get the clap" and "He succeeded in getting the clap" are both pretty >ironic. i'm entirely with dInIs here. i have literal SUCCEED and MANAGE, which involve effortful intentionally goal-directed activity, and i have ironic uses of these, in which the expected effort and/or intention are missing from the actual activity, but i also have uses of these verbs in which effort and intention are bleached away, leaving only the end-state, plus an affective judgment, of surprise/ unexpectedness/dismay/marveling, on the part of the speaker. (this would then be yet another shift from an objective to a subjective stance in the meaning of lexical items. as is usual in such shifts, the newer subjective meaning coexists with the older objective meaning and with an intermediate, deliberately displaced or extended, use, irony or exaggeration or understatement or whatever.) i have an old classroom war story, about an introductory linguistics student who understood the difference between nouns and adjectives, but reversed the words NOUN and ADJECTIVE in referring to the denotata in question. i *could* have told the story more or less like this, but instead, what i always say is something along the lines that this student "(somehow) managed to get the category names exactly reversed". i don't thing this is ironic. it certainly expresses astonishment on my part; i think this is the only thing it expresses that goes beyond the plainer alternative "(somehow) got the category names exactly reversed". (if i think about what i'm saying, i can see that my usage probably originated in irony - but all i'm conveying is straightforward astonishment.) i could contextualize the clap examples similarly: joey's had a terrible year: his dog died on him, he failed ling 100, and somehow he managed to get the clap / succeeded in getting the clap. arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu) From carljweber at MSN.COM Thu Dec 20 02:41:40 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:41:40 -0600 Subject: "Windy City" & "Skunked" Message-ID: Barry Popik wrote: < Yes, it's a myth! "Windy City" dates much earlier than the battle for the 1893 World's Fair, which took place in 1889-1890. Even a simple check of the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS (published in Chicago 50 years ago) shows an 1887 citation. < Affirmative. The 1887 citation: "A gauzy story of an alleged anarchist dynamite plot from the Windy City." 1873: wind work - talk discussion, planning, etc., that precedes work on an undertaking. 1873: "The wind-work all done, and grading will commence about September first." Chicago was also "Wind Town." 1903: "The majority of Wind Town's baseball writers doubted the possibility of peace when the project was broached." A little extra, also picked up in the Dictionary, is that "they were Chicagoed," in 1891, was equivalent to "they were skunked." Our great baseball team at the time, hardly ever losing, gave "Chicago," and it meant "a defeat in which the losing team does not score." The idea in the popular mind that "Chicago" meant "skunk" is transparent. I'm surprised nobody's come up with: skunk >wind> Chicago. Carl Jeffrey Weber From carljweber at MSN.COM Thu Dec 20 02:57:49 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:57:49 -0600 Subject: I found this citation re Chicago Names but not from NAMES--just Message-ID: Thanks. I'll see how I might use the reference. The few times I had been in Europe in the 70s and 80s, Chicago was "ah, boom boom, Al Capone" (always with the accompanying hand gesture). Sometimes "ah, Frank Sinatra." In recent years I'm told it's "ah, Michael Jordon." From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET Thu Dec 20 04:08:40 2001 From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (ANNE V. GILBERT) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:08:40 -0800 Subject: Daily basis Message-ID: William: > Please, for the love of whatever you love, make the dreaded phrase: > "Daily basis" go away forever, along with its ugly sisters, "regular > basis and periodic basis". You must be a prescriptivist! Anne G From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Thu Dec 20 15:55:23 2001 From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:55:23 -0500 Subject: Chateaubriand the pocket steak (and the pork dish) Message-ID: Jim Landau asked for Ward Gilman's story behind the Third International's flub-up of sense 1 of _chateaubriand_ "a steak in which a pocket is cut and stuffed with shallots, chives, cayenne, and salt. According to Gil, the W3 editor for food terms took sense 1 from a reference book where the author explained what the original dish was--the stuffed steak. But the word never signified that concoction in English--it was a confusion of thing and word by the editor. Michael Belanger, the biography editor here, recalls another funny slip-up involving chateaubriand -- though this one, fortunately, never made it into any dictionary. He once came across in the files a cite with the heading "chateaubriand pork chops." This monstrosity came about because the cite read something like "options include chateaubriand steak or pork chops." The marker interpreted "chateaubriand " as modifying both "steak" and "pork chops" and so took off cites for both versions of this strange dish. So you see, it really isn't necessary to insert deliberate mistakes in order to catch plagiarists. The inadvertant ones are sufficient to do the job, if anyone had the time or the inclination to look for these things. Joanne From douglas at NB.NET Thu Dec 20 15:40:55 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:40:55 -0500 Subject: Query for Southern(er)s, Southrons, or... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >We've spent some sporadic time discussing the construction extant in >parts of the South and Appalachia variously referred to as the >"Personal Dative" (Christian 1991), "Southern American Double Object" >(Dannenberg & Webelhuth 2000), dialectal or bound pronominal (e.g. >Sroda & Mishoe 1995), or ethical dative (various sources). This >involves the appearance immediately after the main verb of an >ordinary objective pronoun (rather than a reflexive) coreferring with >the subject; generally a "real" object must also be present, and it >must be quantified. The verb in question is not normally a >ditransitive. Some sample cites (in each case, coreference between >subject and "dative" is assumed): I'm no Southron, and I'm only an Appalachian by immigration, but to some extent these expressions are familiar to me from childhood. It is my feeling that the pronoun in question is a reflexive indirect object or dative, more or less equivalent to "[for [the sake of]] ...self". A few of Larry's more outlandish examples do not seem acceptable to me. The concept of "success" is often implicit in "to do ... for oneself": at least I think purposefulness is generally implicit. >I married me a pretty little wife = "I married for myself a ..." [borderline, maybe. Here "married" must have the flavor of "[purposefully/successfully] acquired". I would not accept "I joined me the NRA/ADS/Taliban/Yale faculty/etc." nor "I have to marry me whichever girl Rev. Moon chooses".] >I'm gonna buy me a shotgun, just as long as I am tall. = "I'm going to buy [for] myself a ..." >I'm gonna catch me a freight train. = "I'm going to catch [for] myself a ..." >Get you a copper kettle, get you a copper coil. [underlying 2d person >subject] = "Get yourself a ..." >He's gonna buy him a pickup. = "He's going to buy himself a ..." >I seen me a mermaid once. = "I saw for myself a ..." [a borderline example ... but I wouldn't have too much trouble with something like "I've had me some fun, I've raised me some children, I've seen me the Taj Mahal, ... [I've lived a full life, I've fulfilled my ambitions]."] >She wants her some chitlins. No good. >Papa needs him some new boots. = "Papa needs for himself some ..." [borderline] >What I like is goats. I jus' like to look at me some goats. [title of >Sroda & Mishoe 1995] No good. There are wrong/poor/stupid ways to use nonstandard constructions, just as for standard ones, IMHO. >On the assumption that the pronoun in question is not a true object >of the verb but a marker implicating that the action or event in >question represents success/good fortune for the subject, I've been >wondering if the following judgments (from this non-native speaker) >are on- or off-base. (Feel free to replace these with clearer >examples of your own.) > >(1) *She fed her some chitlins. > >(2)a. *She gave her a big raise. (vs. pandialectally OK: She gave >herself a big raise.) > b. She got her a big raise. > >(3)a. *I caught me a cold. [or maybe OK if I was trying to catch a cold?] > b. I caught me a catfish. > >(4)a. He shot him two squirrels. > b. *He (got drunk and) shot him two coonhounds (by mistake). > >(5)a. He got him a case of beer. > b. *He got him a case of the clap. I agree with these judgements. But I'm not convinced that the pronoun in question is clearly other than an indirect object of the verb. I think purposefulness/accomplishment is implied; e.g., "I found me a good opportunity" but not "I encountered me a good opportunity", "I inspected me some goats" but not "I noticed me some goats". It seems to me that "buy me" etc. is parallel to "buy you", "buy him", etc., in many cases, so virtually standard except for lack of reflexive marking ("me" for "myself" etc.). -- Doug Wilson From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 20 16:26:25 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:26:25 EST Subject: Waldorf Salad (1895) Message-ID: WALDORF SALAD I've been going through TABLE TALK magazine (1887-1920). The NYPL has it hidden away in the Annex. It's in poor shape, and they're debating whether I'm allowed to copy even the index. I checked the online OED for TABLE TALK and AMERICAN COOKERY--the classic American cookery publications from Philadelphia and Boston. OED hasn't a single citation from either magazine! M-W has 1902 for "Waldorf Salad" and OED has 1911. It's in Oscar of the Waldorf's 1896 tome, but we'll do better. From TABLE TALK, volume 10, January 1895, pg. 6, col. 2: _Inquiry No. 3069._ F. R. L., Watertown, N. Y., writes: "Can you give me a recipe for salad containing apples and celery?" _Answer._ WALDORF SALAD. This salad is a very simple one, and has become so popular merely through its name and use at the Waldorf in New York. It is composed of equal quantities of celery and chopped, raw, sour apples, dressed with mayonnaise dressing. At that hotel it is seldom served as a course, being preferred with game, and is in reality what is called a game salad. It is a favorite custom, more often adopted at "stag dinners" than elsewhere, to serve the salad with the game instead of as a separate course. From TABLE TALK, volume 11, January 1896, pg. 12, col. 1: _Inquiry No. 3547._ A. M. B. of Leadville, Col. writes: "I would be grateful if you will give me the recipe once more for Waldorf salad, as I cannot find my copy of TABLE TALK containing it, and we all thought it very nice indeed." _Answer._ WALDORF SALAD. This salad is composed of equal parts of celery and chopped, raw, sour apples, dressed with the mayonnaise dressing. At the hotel which gives it its name it is seldom served as a course, being preferred with game and is, in reality, what is called a game salad. THis custom of serving salad with game is more often adopted for "stag dinners" than elsewhere. -------------------------------------------------------- SHTUPPELLED MATSOS From TABLE TALK, February 1895, pg. 51, col. 1: _Inquiry No. 3138._ Mrs. D. R., St. Paul, Minn, writes: "Will you kindly explain what matsos are and where made?" _Answer._ MATSOS. (...)(Col. 2--ed.) ...the inspector (or "Shomer" as he is called).... The "matso"...is placed upon a large plate, "docked" all over with small holes (or, as the workmen themselves call it, "Shtuppelled,") and immediately "skived" or cut into cakes of the desired size. From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Thu Dec 20 18:25:48 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:25:48 -0500 Subject: another touchstone Message-ID: Here is a dictionary to be found in better libraries everywhere. If your library of choice does not have it, you may be sure that you are patronizing an inferior institution. Patrick Labriola & Jurgen Schiffer. American Sports: Baseball ? Football ? Basketball: Worterbuch grosser amerikanischer Sportarten. Dictionary of Major American Sports. Englisch ? Deutsch, mit einem deutschsprachigen Index. Aachen: Meyer & Meyer Verlag, 1997. 423 pp. The vocabulary or each sport is given separately. I have never studied German, but have been handling German books for 30 years or so, and have as a result attained a sort of "hum a few bars and I will fake it" mastery of the tongue. On this basis, I will say that this seems to be a pretty capable piece of work. I notice the entry "to get a runner over" = einer Laufer mit einem Bunt oder Sacrifice Bunt vorrucken lassen. There isn't an entry under "to move the runner over" and the definition doesn't consider moving the runner over by hitting a grounder to a fielder on the right side of the infield. (When this is accomplished, it is obligitory to say of the batter: "He did his job.") On the other hand, "to get all of the ball" = alles aus dem Ball herausholen (siehe "to slam the ball") and "to get good wood on the ball" = dem Ball gutes Holz geben (siehe "to slam the ball") seem neatly phrased. From the same page I find "to get under the ball = unter den Ball kommen (1. beim Schlag den unteren Teil des Balls treffen und dadurch einem Flugball verursachen; 2. sich in eine Position bringen, um einem hohen Flugball su fangen) very properly makes a distinction between the two senses of that phrase. "Shoestring catch" is listed as both a baseball and a football term. As a baseball term it is defined as: Schnursenkelfang (geschlagener Ball, der unmittelbar vor der Bodenberuhrung gefangen wird). As a football term: "Ballannahme in Schnursenkelfang (Pass, der unmittelbar vor der Bodenberuhrung gefangen wird). "Trash talking" is given as exclusively a basketball term: "den Gegner provozieren, indem man ihn verbal attackiert." If this had come into the library here a few weeks earlier, I could have posted this announcement in time for your holiday shopping. Sorry about that. Larry Horn, I believe it was, has commented upon my very strict standards for judging whether a library should be considered a "better" library or an inferior one. I accept this criticism, but if we do not have high standards, how can we have progress? GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Thu Dec 20 18:49:11 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:49:11 -0600 Subject: Barry Popik's work on "the Windy City" Message-ID: I appreciate Carl J. Weber's interest in etymology and hereby extend him a formal welcome to our group. When I officially return to work in two weeks, I look forward to examining his messages on "Chicago" et al. Meanwhile, one clarification is in order. Barry Popik has already unearthed most or all early attestations of "Windy City" in reference to Chicago and posted them to ADS-L (available in the archives). A few additional ones are contained in hard-copy material he sent to me in pre-ADS-L days. I have compiled all that material in an article to appear in the December 2001 issue of _Comments on Etymology_ (to be mailed out in early January 2002). And since the material all comes from Barry, I have listed him as the author. Any journalists who write on the "Windy City" might be interested in consulting this article first; they need only ask, and it will be sent with my compliments. ---Gerald Cohen At 8:41 PM -0600 12/19/01, carljweber wrote: >From: carljweber >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: "Windy City" & "Skunked" >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:41:40 -0600 > >Barry Popik wrote: >< > Yes, it's a myth! "Windy City" dates much earlier than the battle >for the 1893 World's Fair, which took place in 1889-1890. Even a >simple check of the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS (published in Chicago >50 years ago) shows an 1887 citation. > < > > Affirmative. >The 1887 citation: "A gauzy story of an alleged anarchist dynamite >plot from the Windy City." > >1873: wind work - talk discussion, planning, etc., that precedes work >on an undertaking. >1873: "The wind-work all done, and grading will commence about >September first." > >Chicago was also "Wind Town." 1903: "The majority of Wind Town's >baseball writers doubted the possibility of peace when the project was >broached." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 20 18:57:09 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:57:09 EST Subject: Black Russian (1964) Message-ID: "A Black Russian! Get it? Heh-heh-heh." --Eddie Murphy, 48 HRS. "Black Russian" is in neither OED nor Merriam-Webster. If it's not fast-tracked ("Fuck-me" was fast-tracked. Go figure), OED will probably add it in about 12 years. From CUE, 9 May 1964, pg. 36, col. 1: _TIDBITS:_ Visitors to the Fair--and New Yorkers, too--are talking about a new drink: The Black Russian. If you want to try it at home, mix one part Kahlua, two parts vodka, stir and serve. --VADNA DIBBLE From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 20 06:03:40 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:03:40 +0800 Subject: Waldorf Salad (1895) In-Reply-To: <14f.60a46cf.29536b31@aol.com> Message-ID: At 11:26 AM -0500 12/20/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > _Answer._ > MATSOS. > (...)(Col. 2--ed.) > ...the inspector (or "Shomer" as he is called).... > The "matso"...is placed upon a large plate, "docked" all over >with small holes (or, as the workmen themselves call it, >"Shtuppelled,") and immediately "skived" or cut into cakes of the >desired size. Now THERE's a job: a matzo-shtuppeller. I guess if there are all those slurs derived for words for the male organ (shmucks, dorks, putzes,...), there might as well be a verbal derivation from the corresponding verb (to shtup), although one doesn't necessarily conceive of the relevant action as hole-making, exactly. larry From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 20 06:07:33 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:07:33 +0800 Subject: another touchstone In-Reply-To: <260bd525cc44.25cc44260bd5@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: At 1:25 PM -0500 12/20/01, George Thompson wrote: >Here is a dictionary to be found in better libraries everywhere. If >your library of choice does not have it, you may be sure that you are >patronizing an inferior institution. > >Patrick Labriola & Jurgen Schiffer. American Sports: Baseball ? >Football ? Basketball: Worterbuch grosser amerikanischer Sportarten. >Dictionary of Major American Sports. Englisch ? Deutsch, mit einem >deutschsprachigen Index. Aachen: Meyer & Meyer Verlag, 1997. 423 pp. > >... >Larry Horn, I believe it was, has commented upon my very strict >standards for judging whether a library should be considered a "better" >library or an inferior one. I accept this criticism, but if we do not >have high standards, how can we have progress? > Oops, Yale flunks again. larry From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU Thu Dec 20 21:09:10 2001 From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:09:10 -0800 Subject: another touchstone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001, Laurence Horn wrote: > At 1:25 PM -0500 12/20/01, George Thompson wrote: > >Here is a dictionary to be found in better libraries everywhere. If > >your library of choice does not have it, you may be sure that you are > >patronizing an inferior institution. > > > Oops, Yale flunks again. > > larry As far as I can tell, everybody in the US flunks except New York Public Library! allen maberry at u.washington.edu From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Thu Dec 20 21:34:43 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:34:43 -0500 Subject: Waldorf Salad (1895) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: larry, Not so. At least not universally,. In Caribbean Spanish several jokes, metaphors, and slang items hinge on "hole-poking" for "shtupping." (A Cuban once found me very dense for not getting the analogy with "ventilate" in exactly this sense, although, in my defense, it also took imagining the penis as the number 7, which I still have some difficulty with.) dInIs >At 11:26 AM -0500 12/20/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >> _Answer._ >> MATSOS. >> (...)(Col. 2--ed.) >> ...the inspector (or "Shomer" as he is called).... >> The "matso"...is placed upon a large plate, "docked" all over >>with small holes (or, as the workmen themselves call it, >>"Shtuppelled,") and immediately "skived" or cut into cakes of the >>desired size. > >Now THERE's a job: a matzo-shtuppeller. I guess if there are all >those slurs derived for words for the male organ (shmucks, dorks, >putzes,...), there might as well be a verbal derivation from the >corresponding verb (to shtup), although one doesn't necessarily >conceive of the relevant action as hole-making, exactly. > >larry -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 20 08:48:30 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:48:30 +0800 Subject: Waldorf Salad (1895) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:34 PM -0500 12/20/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >larry, > >Not so. At least not universally,. In Caribbean Spanish several >jokes, metaphors, and slang items hinge on "hole-poking" for >"shtupping." OK, you've convinced me. Especially since we're concerned with "shtuppeling" rather than "shtupping", and I assume the former involves lots of mini-shtup-events. >(A Cuban once found me very dense for not getting the >analogy with "ventilate" in exactly this sense, although, in my >defense, it also took imagining the penis as the number 7, which I >still have some difficulty with.) > >dInIs Especially if constructed with that perpendicular line half-way through (the number 7, that is, not the penis). If anything, the Euro-style "7" would have to denote "No penis allowed". L From carljweber at MSN.COM Thu Dec 20 22:25:39 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:25:39 -0600 Subject: "Checagou" is Miami/Illinos Message-ID: (edited by CJW) John E. McLaughlin wrote: > Mr. Weber, I've been reading your comments on the etymology of "Chicago" with mild interest for a while. Even with the earliest attestation, "Checagou", it's phonetic similarity to the Miami/Illinois word for "skunk" is way beyond coincidence. > (I'll take any interest I can get.) No way. Similarities breed homonyms. Homonyms breed convenient etymologies. La Salle's word "Checagou," the form for nearly the first TWO DECADES, was not simply the "earliest attestation." Note it is without the "-a" on the end, and accordingly, it could not be Miami/Illinois for "skunk." The "-a" gender marker on the ends of words of some of the related Algonquian languages was "inaudible to Europeans"; and in others the "-a" was even morphemically dropped -- but these do not apply in Miami/Illinois. When the word began to be used by the Jesuits - missionaries to the Miami/Illinois -- after about 1700, they rendered it into the Miami/Illinois dialect as basically "Chicagoua" - with "Chi-" and "-a." The Indians told Joutel in late 1687 the area was named after the "onions" (NOT "skunk"). ("Skunk" -- from which the "onion" synonym derived -- was the transparent meaning of the word to the Miami/Illinois. The onions, when in season, had a foul smell). The 1720 dictionary of Le Boulanger has "abusive" next to the Chicago word as used for "onions." The Indians were funnin' with Joutel. The "skunk" etymology doesn't come up until the Tanner narrative of the 1830s, 150 years after the place name's first use by La Salle. > I also think that your quibbling over "e" or "i" in the first syllable is quite needless since the European ears that heard the Native words were usually untrained to hear a consistent and reliable distinction between front lax vowels. > (This is further compounded by the natives' apparently having been untrained in elocution). This is the common argument. I've come across it numerous times. Algonquianist scholars do NOT quibble about this Chi-/Che-, however, in this context. The "Che-" form, found for nearly the first two decades of the word's use in narratives and on maps, is not quibble. The problem is that there are many examples with "Che-" and "Chi-," in the entire span of literature into the English period, but no one ever tried to sort it out. I took all the narratives, and all the maps in the opening decades of use, pulled the forms, put them in chronology, and allowed for the historical cases that might have been spurious. Remember too, that there were bi-lingual children running around to help their dads' untrained ears. > .Almost all of the linguists keep referring them back to me as a Comanche specialist. They just don't like "worm eaters" as the meaning of their beloved town's name. Sometimes a horse is just a horse. LaSalle's "Checagou" and your very good explanation of the "locative n" as a misprint (a Comanche treaty from 1786 has a name, Paruaquibitiste, in the handwritten copy that became Parnaquibitiste in the printed version) both point to a solid etymology of "skunk" in Miami/Illinois. > What I debunk is not just the skunk. The classical "skunk/onion" etymology is actually "place of the skunk/onion" -- going back to H.R. Schoolcraft. It's wrong, not just for the 1714 misprint you mention, but also the three reasons I mention in "Chicago Etymology Revisited": 1. it was not from a local language, 2. the area to which the name applied in the earliest descriptions and on the maps was much larger than the comparatively small area up near lake Michigan where grew the aliums that stunk a few months a year, and 3. the Indians' use of the word was "abuse," a linguistic fraud on the white eyes. Mine is a preponderance of evidence argument - truth by a thousand quibbles. Carl Jeffrey Weber From carljweber at MSN.COM Thu Dec 20 22:39:49 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:39:49 -0600 Subject: Barry Popik's work on "the Windy City" Message-ID: Gerald Cohen I privately thanked Barry Popik for the lead and information. When my work is presented to our city's civic representatives soon, I intend to present his work as good evidence for how etymologies of placenames frequently get historically short shafted. Carl Jeffrey Weber Chicago From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Thu Dec 20 22:45:37 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:45:37 EST Subject: A resident of Provo? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/18/2001 12:10:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, db.list at PMPKN.NET writes: > I am in need of the one-word term for a resident of Provo (the town in Utah > where Brigham Young University is located). > David Bowie Department of Linguistics > Assistant Professor Brigham Young University > db.list at pmpkn.net http://pmpkn.net/lx Somebody who lives in Provo and teaches at Brigham Young University is a "prof". Somebody who lives in Provo and works at the Bonneville Salt Flats has a job "prov-ing" automobiles. An attorney who lives in Provo performs his law work pro vono publico. Career people who live in Provo and do not fit the above categories are "pros", unless they come from Siberia, in which case they are "khans". From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 21 00:16:17 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:16:17 -0500 Subject: the problem is is that... In-Reply-To: <57694.3217739178@[10.218.202.195]> Message-ID: Yes, I've heard this too. Thanks. At 08:26 AM 12/19/01 -0800, you wrote: >I had a friend who consistently said, "The point being is...." >Interestingly, he lives in Yellow Springs (near Dayton). > >Peter > >--On Tuesday, December 18, 2001 5:54 PM -0500 Beverly Flanigan > wrote: > >>I don't think I've heard that one, but the related "the reason being is >>..." is consistently used by a former student from Dayton, as well as by a >>few others I've randomly taken note of. I'd appreciate comments by others >>on these two constructions! >> >>At 09:47 PM 12/17/01 +0000, you wrote: >>>Beverly, >>> >>>Are you also dealing with "the problem being is ..."? >>>That's the one I hear more often here in Central Indiana. >>> >>>Herb >>> > This is of interest to me, since I'm working on a long-promised paper >>> > on this and related constructions (and I will get it to you soon, >>> > Arnold!). Of course the double "is" is deliberate, and it's become >>> > extremely common (the other "is"s are totally unrelated and completely >>> > "normal" in context). >>> > >> >> >>_____________________________________________ >>Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics >>Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 >>Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 >>http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm > > > >**************************************************************************** > Peter A. McGraw > Linfield College * McMinnville, OR > pmcgraw at linfield.edu _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Fri Dec 21 00:53:18 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:53:18 -0800 Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Gally [mailto:tomgally at pa2.so-net.ne.jp] > To: honyaku at yahoogroups.com > Have you noticed that whenever a new dictionary is > published, the publicity > material and news reports always focus on the trendy > words that have been > added to it? One reason is that those are the easiest > words to gather. The > hard part is spotting new or unrecorded meanings of > conventional words, > especially words that already have many meanings. Mark > Spahn pointed out > that apparently no English dictionaries explain the > important difference > between "percentage" and "percentage point"; that may be > partly due to the > Genesis Lexicographer's oversight, but another factor is > probably that > "point" has so many other meanings already. If the word > for "percentage > point" were instead "perpoint" or "centification" or > "cybertick," it would > have been caught and added to dictionaries years ago. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 21 02:01:13 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:01:13 EST Subject: Yale Salad (1911); What! No Soap? Message-ID: YALE SALAD Yale has to have something to go with the "hot dog" (1895) and "Yale Cocktail" (1895). "Harvard Salad" contains Harvard beets, and I've found more recipes for that salad. From TABLE TALK, July 1911, pg. 386, col. 2: YALE SALAD. Arrange in the salad dish a shredded head of romaine lettuce; on this lay a mixture of green peppers that have been plunged in boiling water for one minute, cooled and shredded; small tomatoes, peeled, cooled and cut in carpels; one diced cucumber and the pulp from one grape fruit. Pour over a French dressing at the moment of serving. -------------------------------------------------------- WHAT! NO SOAP? "What! No Spinach?" probably is a later spin-off of "What! No Soap?" A bear says the catch phrase in an ad for Pears' Soap, TABLE TALK, September 1909, opp. index (page 1?): _A Severe Test for the Memory_ _Amusing for all by exceedingly useful liars_ MACKLIN, the celebrated actor, one evening made "The Cultivation of the Memory" the subject of a lecture, during which he said that to such perfection hed he brought his own, that he could learn anything by rote on once hearing it. Foote, another actor, was present, and handed up the following sentences, desiring that Macklin would read them once and repeat them from memory: "So she went into the garden to cut a cabbage-leaf, to make an apple-pie; and at the same time a great she-bear, coming up the street. pops its head into the shop. 'What! No Pears Soap?' So he died, and she very imprudently married the barber; and there were present the Picninnies, and the Joblilies, and the Garcelies, and the Grand Panjandrum himself, with the little round button at top; and they all fell to playing the game of catch as catch can, till the gunpowder ran out at the heels of their boots." _It is needless to say that Foote had the laugh of old Macklin, and that Pears' Soap is matchless for the Complexion_ From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 21 02:22:16 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:22:16 EST Subject: St. David and Taffy-on-a-Stick (1910) Message-ID: ANS-L is having a "St. David" thread, but I'll send this to ADS-L as well. From TABLE TALK, February 1910, pg. 86, col. 1: _St. David and Taffy-on-a-Stick_ _F. C. Evans_ A number of words in the English language are derived from the names of saints. _Maudlin_, for instance, comes from St. Magdalene, _valentine_ from St. Valentinus. It is very probable that the name of the humble confection, beloved by the children, known as taffy-on-a-stick is connected with that of the patron saint of Wales. March first is St. David's Day, the national holiday of Wales. Very little actual fact is known about St. David, except that he was one of the early leaders of the Welsh church. He established monasteries and founded the bishopric now known by his name. He died about the year 550, and a shrine in the present cathedral of St. David's is said to enclose the bones. (Col. 2--ed.) But if the authentic history of this personage is meagre, the legends that cluster around his name are many in number and fantastic in character. His birth is reputed to have been predicted by a divine messenger, he was frequently attended by celestial beings, the Bath waters became warm and salubrious through his agency, he healed the sick and raised the dead, when he preached a snow-white dove perched on his shoulder. A remarkable tradition concerning his birth is preserved in a prayer that used to be said in Salisbury Cathedral on St. David's Day; viz., "Oh God, who, by Thy angel didst foretell thy Blessed Confessor Saint David thirty years before he was born, grant unto us we beseech thee, that, celebrating his memory (Pg. 87, col. 1--ed.), we may by his intercession attain to joy everlasting." Welshmen celebrate St. David's Day by wearing the leek, a plant that might be regarded the shamrock of Wales. Shakespeare alludes to this custom in several places. On this day one of the Welsh regiments of the British army gives a banquet, in which the leek plays a prominent part. The origin of wearing the leek is obscure; there is reason to believe it a relic of some pre-Christian festival connected with the revival of vegetation in the spring time. In England there was once a custom of hanging a Welshman in effigy on this day, possibly a survival of a time when a real Welshman was slaughtered by the invading heathen Saxons. In 1667 Pepys wrote in his diary, "In Mark Lane, I do observe, it being St. David's Day, the picture of a man dressed like a Welshman, hanging by the neck upon one of the poles that stand out at the top of one of the merchant's houses, in full proportion and very handsomely done; which is one of the oddest sights I have seen a good while, for it was so like a man that one would have thought it was indeed a man." This (Col. 2--ed.) practise was very common at one time, and until the middle of the nineteenth century, bakers made gingerbread Welshmen, called taffies, on St. David's Day, which were made to represent a man skewered. "Taffy" is a diminutive of David, a common name in Wales. "Taffy was a Welshman." Now the sweetmeat known as taffy-on-a-stick consists of a piece of molasses candy impaled on a skewer. It is not improbable that this is a descendent of the impaled Welshman, for the transition is easily made from ginger cake to candy _via_ such confections as "Scotch cake" etc. This probability is strengthened by the fact that most of the dictionaries are silent regarding the derivation of the word "_taffy_," while a few go as far as the Malay language to find its root in the word "_Tafia_," a kind of rum. But the above chain of facts would indicate that "taffy" (in England "toffy") as a general term for a type of candy has arisen from the name of a special kind of candy derived from the English nickname for a Welshman, which is in turn a result of so many Welshmen bearing the name of David their patron saint. From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Thu Dec 20 15:53:10 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:53:10 +0800 Subject: Yale Salad (1911); What! No Soap? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 9:01 PM -0500 12/20/01, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: >YALE SALAD > > Yale has to have something to go with the "hot dog" (1895) and >"Yale Cocktail" (1895). "Harvard Salad" contains Harvard beets, and >I've found more recipes for that salad. > From TABLE TALK, July 1911, pg. 386, col. 2: > > YALE SALAD. > Arrange in the salad dish a shredded head of romaine lettuce; on >this lay a mixture of green peppers that have been plunged in >boiling water for one minute, cooled and shredded; small tomatoes, >peeled, cooled and cut in carpels; one diced cucumber and the pulp >from one grape fruit. Pour over a French dressing at the moment of >serving. > Anymore, it's hard to find a good carpel-cut tomato in New Haven. O tempora, o mores. At least you could eat *our* salads, unlike those of our Cantabridgian neighbors to the north, without peeing crimson... larry From Ittaob at AOL.COM Fri Dec 21 04:56:48 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:56:48 EST Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries Message-ID: I've observed that dictionaries often do a poor job in defining phrases, as opposed to individual words. That may be because there are so many phrases, the meanings of which can often be deduced from their components. For example, in AHD you can look up percentage, and you can look up point (one meaning -- "a single unit, as in counting, rating or measuring") -- and pretty much understand what a percentage point is. Steve From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 21 07:14:20 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 02:14:20 EST Subject: Straight Up Or On the Rocks; Blue Plate Special & Blue Ribbon Chefs Message-ID: STRAIGHT UP OR ON THE ROCKS: THE STORY OF THE AMERICAN COCKTAIL by William Grimes 186 pages, hardcover, $20 1995 by Simon & Schuster 2001 by North Point Press, Farrar, Straus & Giroux William Grimes recently promoted this book on the New York Times's NEW YORK CLOSEUP show on cable tv channel NY1. His face was distorted, proving that he's either a restaurant critic or a mobster. David Shulman told me that he contributed to the 1995 book, but was given neither money nor credit. I don't know the extent of this. The 1995 book was okay. It was well-researched; Bonnie Slotnick told me that Grimes is a regular customer at her cookbook store. The key books were all cited. The 1995 book was well written. The 2001 edition seems to be exactly like the old book, but with a different publisher. For example, Harry Craddock's great THE SAVOY COCKTAIL BOOK (1930) was been reprinted in 1999. Why not give the date of the recent reprint--the one people can buy on Amazon.com? Updated, huh? One web site is given for a bibliography: www-rci.rutgers.edu/~edmunds/barman.html. One. Amazing. All those drink web sites (Bartender.com, Webtender.com, Cocktail.com), and Grimes cites NONE of them? Recipes are on pages 127-163, but we can get all that and much more for free on the web! The book Grimes should have written is a COCKTAIL DICTIONARY. State each cocktail, give the recipe, give historical references, explain the origin of the name, and maybe add a photo. "Black Russian"--which I just explained--is not here. "Sex on the Beach" is not here, either. What is Grimes doing? Maybe someday, if Oxford University Press decides to cover American drinks.... -------------------------------------------------------- BLUE PLATE SPECIALS & BLUE RIBBON CHEFS: THE HEART AND SOUL OF AMERICA'S GREAT ROADSIDE RESTAURANTS by Jane and Michael Stern 228 pages, hardcover, $24.95 Lebhar Friedman Books, NY 2001 The Sterns have been down this road before. They've done ROADFOOD and GOODFOOD, and are at www.roadfood.com. They're in GOURMET and on NPR. An interesting book on 1950s food, also by the Sterns, is in the NYU Bobst Library. (Any relation to NYU's Stern School?) It doesn't have page numbers. George, how did NYU get that? This book reads like a part of their others. It's like they re-arrange notes and files and come out with a "new" book. If you must buy just one, it's gotta be ROADFOOD. This is probably the weakest. "Blue Plate Special"--a phrase I've done some work on--is not explained. I found the book of interest for two items: SCHWABL'S (Buffalo, NY), Roast Beef for Beef on Weck--On pages 179-181. A guess is made that the dish is from 1910s-1920s. See the ADS-L archives for Beef 'n' Weck. C&K BARBECUE (St. Louis, MO), Snoot Sauce, St. Paul Sandwich--What does the next DARE have for these??? -------------------------------------------------------- BEN & JERRY'S APPLE CRUMBLE (NEW!) About eight years ago, all the Ben & Jerry stores had a flavor contest. I entered "Big Apple"--apples, cinnamon, raisins, walnuts. Each store had monthly winners, and I entered in several stores. I lost. Ben & Jerry's was on sale this week, and I spotted: new! BEN & JERRY'S APPLE CRUMBLE Brown Sugar Ice Cream, Cinnamon Streusel, Apples & a Caramel Swirl. I'm taking my idea to Edy's. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Fri Dec 21 07:46:20 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 02:46:20 EST Subject: Straight Up Or On the Rocks; Blue Plate Special & Blue Ribbon Chefs Message-ID: I just went to www.roadfood.com. See Reviews. Reviewed on 12-19-01 and 12-20-01 were Modern Apizza and Louis Lunch, both of New Haven, CT. From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Dec 21 14:04:29 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:04:29 -0500 Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries Message-ID: I think this makes a very worthwhile point. Thanks. TMP (full-time lexicographer since 1964) Benjamin Barrett wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tom Gally [mailto:tomgally at pa2.so-net.ne.jp] > > To: honyaku at yahoogroups.com > > > Have you noticed that whenever a new dictionary is > > published, the publicity > > material and news reports always focus on the trendy > > words that have been > > added to it? One reason is that those are the easiest > > words to gather. The > > hard part is spotting new or unrecorded meanings of > > conventional words, > > especially words that already have many meanings. Mark > > Spahn pointed out > > that apparently no English dictionaries explain the > > important difference > > between "percentage" and "percentage point"; that may be > > partly due to the > > Genesis Lexicographer's oversight, but another factor is > > probably that > > "point" has so many other meanings already. If the word > > for "percentage > > point" were instead "perpoint" or "centification" or > > "cybertick," it would > > have been caught and added to dictionaries years ago. From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Fri Dec 21 14:03:45 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:03:45 -0500 Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries Message-ID: "... can OFTEN be deduced from their components ..."? I would say sometimes. So the question remains, which compounds are self-explanatory and which need entry in dictionaries. T. M. PAIKEDAY Ittaob at AOL.COM wrote: > > I've observed that dictionaries often do a poor job in defining phrases, as > opposed to individual words. That may be because there are so many phrases, > the meanings of which can often be deduced from their components. For > example, in AHD you can look up percentage, and you can look up point (one > meaning -- "a single unit, as in counting, rating or measuring") -- and > pretty much understand what a percentage point is. > > Steve From jemcinto at IDIRECT.CA Fri Dec 21 16:39:02 2001 From: jemcinto at IDIRECT.CA (James McIntosh) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:39:02 -0500 Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries Message-ID: At 04:53 PM 12/20/01 -0800, you wrote: What is a >> "percentage point" anyway ? From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Fri Dec 21 20:35:39 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:35:39 -0500 Subject: Waldorf Salad (1895) In-Reply-To: <14f.60a46cf.29536b31@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > I checked the online OED for TABLE TALK and AMERICAN COOKERY--the > classic American cookery publications from Philadelphia and Boston. > OED hasn't a single citation from either magazine! What about the 1915 citation for "Pyrex"? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM Sat Dec 22 04:34:38 2001 From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:34:38 -0600 Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries In-Reply-To: <5a.3cd0480.29541b10@aol.com> Message-ID: Dictionaries, by definition, deal primarily with individual words and with strings of words whose meaning is not simply the sum of their constituent parts (idiomatic phrases, open compounds). Transparent noun phrases are not normally included. I am assuming that 'percentage point' is a transparent noun phrase, meaning one point of percentage: e.g. 17 percentage points = 17 per cent. If this is not the case, and it has another established meaning, then dictionaries should include it, if it is common enough (and if warranted by the size of the particular dictionary, the intended audience, etc.) The matter of collocations -- words that commonly occur together, but don't have any special sense as a group (e.g. a phrase such as 'a hushed whisper' or a given verb that is commonly associated with a given noun, such as 'commit' with 'crime') -- is something else. The dividing line between collocations -- which are often cliches -- and idioms or open compounds is not always clear, and what constitutes a collocation can be very subjective. However, the concept of collocations has been getting more lexicographical attention in recent years and many dictionaries include more information about them than in the past, often in the form of example phrases following definitions. Bilingual and learners' dictionaries, especially, need to provide information about collocations. Of course, their number is legion and no dictionary could possibly include them all in any way that would be meaningful to a user who didn't want to devote his entire life to reading it. Victoria Victoria Neufeldt 1533 Early Drive Saskatoon, Sask. S7H 3K1 Canada Tel: 306-955-8910 > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf > Of Ittaob at AOL.COM > Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:57 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries > > > I've observed that dictionaries often do a poor job in defining > phrases, as > opposed to individual words. That may be because there are so > many phrases, > the meanings of which can often be deduced from their components. For > example, in AHD you can look up percentage, and you can look up point (one > meaning -- "a single unit, as in counting, rating or measuring") -- and > pretty much understand what a percentage point is. > > Steve > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 22 07:46:04 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 02:46:04 EST Subject: Swiss Steak; Um-m-m (and much more!) Message-ID: PYREX--Yes, Fred's right. The OED has "Pyrex"--not even a food!--from AMERICAN COOKERY. One citation, from the leading magazine in the field for over half a century. Amazing. STRAIGHT UP OR ON THE ROCKS--The first edition is 1993, not 1995. I misread the small print..."Long Island Iced Tea" is never mentioned, either. If William Grimes keeps this up, he'll get John Mariani status...Anyone know of any other reviews of this book? It'll be interesting to know the opinions of non-scholars in the field. ROCK AND ROLL--William Safire botches it this Sunday. He gives the impression that the term comes from 1947..."Roll" was popular in the famous Log Cabin/O.K. political campaign of 1840. "Keep the ball rolling" was one of the slogans popularized then...Maybe Gerald Cohen or David Barnhart should write a letter on these two points. -------------------------------------------------------- UM-M-M (continued) I've been documenting "mmm" (as in "mm-mm good" Campbell's soup) and "umm." Someone's gotta do it. From NATIONAL FOOD MAGAZINE, March 1916, pg. 205: _Dandelion Greens: UM-M-M! Pass 'Em To Me!_ By WILLIAM HERSCHELL (It's a poem. From the last line--ed.) Um-m-m! Um-m-! Pass 'em to me! "Songs of the Streets and Byways," The Bobbs-Merill Co. -------------------------------------------------------- SWISS STEAK (continued) Jean Anderson's AMERICAN CENTURY COOKBOOK (1997) highlights "Swiss Steak." Pg. 91: "THE FIRST RECIPE I've been able to find for Swiss Steak appears in _Larkin Housewives' Cook Book_ (1915)." "Swiss Steak" is in TABLE TALK, June 1911, pg. 308, and November 1911, pg. 612. From June 1911, pg. 308, col. 1: _Swiss Steak_ One pound of steak, (Saturday, the third)(In the Daily Menus--ed.), one quart of flour, salt and pepper, four skined tomatoes, one sliced onion, water. Have the steak cut two inches thick, and pound into it the flour with the sanitary steak shredder. Put the steak into a skillet, with some (Col. 2--ed.) lard and brown on both sides. Then cover with water, adding the sliced onion, tomatoes sliced and cover closely and let simmer for three hours. Just before the steak is done add salt and pepper to taste. When done the gravy is already made and is delicious. Swiss steak, is best prepared with the sanitary steak shredder as it makes it so very tender, and very juicy. The shredder weighs half a pound, and may also be used for other purposes, that will readily suggest themselves to the intelligent housewife, as a fruit or vegetable chopper, potato masher or noddle cutter, each impression cutting a noodle twenty-four inches long. it is practically indestructible, and will last a lifetime. -------------------------------------------------------- SUNSHINE CAKE DARE?...Not cited in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK. A "Sunshine Cake" recipe is in TABLE TALK, 1906, pg. 266, col. 2. Another recipe is in TABLE TALK, 1908, pg. 77, col. 1. "Angel and Sunshine Cakes," by Anna Nixon, is in TABLE TALK, October 1909, pp. 400-401. From Pg. 401, col. 1: For the _sunshine cake_ whip the whites of seven eggs to a firm, smooth froth, adding one level teaspoonful of cream of tartar when they are about half beaten. Be very careful not to whip the whites until the mass is so dry that it breaks into feathery flakes, for if it once reaches that point the cake is almost sure to be dry and tough. Add the sugar a tablespoonful at a time, and fold in very lightly, and then the yolks, well beaten. Gently fold in three and one-half ounces of flour, tablespoonful at a time, flavor with one teaspoonful of lemon or orange extract and bake very slowly for one hour. -------------------------------------------------------- APPLE SAUCE CAKE (continued) An "Apple Sauce Cake" recipe is in TABLE TALK, 1907, pg. 400, col. 1. Also, TABLE TALK, June 1910, pg. 322, col. 1. -------------------------------------------------------- DUTCH APPLE CAKE; APPLE ICE CREAM (continued) A "Dutch Apple Cake" (not "pie") recipe is in TABLE TALK, June 1911, pg. 331, and again in September 1911, pg. 486. "Apple Ice Cream" is on the same page in TABLE TALK, September 1911, pg. 486, col. 2. -------------------------------------------------------- APPLES OF AMERICA "Apples of America" is an article in TABLE TALK, February 1914, pp. 94-96, reprinted from THE EPICUREAN. Much apple lore is described. Pg. 95, col. 2: "The Ben Davis, for instance, so known in the Middle West, is known in New York State as a New York Pippin." "Big Apple" is never mentioned. FWIW: In its September 2001 issue, SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN suggested that "Big Apple" comes from those 19th-century whores. I wrote to the person who said that and told him the truth, but got no response. I wrote a letter to the editor, and Gerald Cohen wrote in to back me up. The latest SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN is out; my letter was not published. -------------------------------------------------------- BLACK MAMMY (continued) The black mammy wasn't invented in GONE WITH THE WIND. This should be included in the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD. An interesting article is in TABLE TALK, June 1912, pg. 1: _The Black Mammy Memorial Institute and Its Founder_ (More from TABLE TALK on Monday. I leave for Cuba on Tuesday morning--ed.) From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM Sat Dec 22 13:30:11 2001 From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 08:30:11 -0500 Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries Message-ID: Vickie Neufeldt wrote in part: "... The dividing line between collocations -- which are often cliches -- and idioms or open compounds is not always clear, and what constitutes a collocation can be very subjective. ..." This is surely a part--albeit a small part--of the art of lexicography. Indeed, those publishers who think that computer programs or inexperienced editors can replace experienced lexicographers will end up with less artfully crafted lexicons. Regards and Happy Holidays, David barnhart at highlands.com From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Sat Dec 22 22:54:41 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 17:54:41 -0500 Subject: Misplace Message-ID: The latest OED appeals list includes an appeal for "misplace" (to lose, mislay) antedate 1989. Is this just an Americanism? I've long used the word in that sense (although the sense of placing wrongly, as in "misplaced trust," is perhaps more familiar) and had no trouble finding a significant antedating: >>That said recovery at law was against equity, and by reason of a defect in the petitioner's law title; arising from the accident of the Court of Probate's having omitted to give an order to sell said land, or of said orders having been misplaced or lost.<< Gay v. Adams, Bates, 1 Root 105 (Conn. Super. 1786). John Baker From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 23 21:15:41 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 16:15:41 EST Subject: Deacon Porter's Hat (Mount Holyoke food traditions) Message-ID: My niece's Bat Mitzvah is over. I've just recovered. The Westchester Bat Mitzvah was a huge affair. An Arsenio Hall-wannabe said, "Let's give it up for the Hamotzi blessing!" Four identical uber-blondes seemingly took the wrong turn from NY Knicks cheerleader practice and led the dances. This is for a 13-year-old girl! Shouldn't "I'm a Slave 4 U" be banned? Anyway.... Three of my cousins went to Mount Holyoke College (the first women's college). I said that I recently took a brief trip to Vassar College for "Vassar fudge," and that Smith College and Mount Holyoke College would be next month. She told me about three food traditions at her college: DEACON PORTER'S HAT: Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA has e brief note, but see the web site http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~dalbino/books/lester/porter.htm. What does Fred Shapiro have for "eat my hat"? This is not in DARE, but it absolutely should be. OED, too. MARY LYONS' BIRTHDAY: My cousin said it's a tradition to eat ice cream at 6 a.m. every year on her birthday (founders' day). Http://www.mtholyoke.edu/offices/comm/csj/970221/cake.html mentions cake and Deacon Porter's hat for Mary Lyons' birthday, but my cousin said that everyone eats ice cream. MILK & CRACKERS: Every night at about 10 p.m. at Mount Holyoke, they have "milk and crackers." The "crackers" were originally Graham crackers, but now they're cookies. My cousin looked into the tradition, and she read that it was believed that milk and Graham crackers satisfied the sexual urges that Mount Holyoke students would sometimes have, especially at that hour. I'll check it out--in a scholarly way, I mean. Meanwhile, the Bat Mitzvah dancers are gone, and I'm left with just these Bat Mitzvah chocolates.... From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 24 14:33:10 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:33:10 EST Subject: Hillbilly Heroin Message-ID: "Hillbilly Heroin" should get some WOTY consideration, especially if you add a category of new drug terms. I didn't spy it on the Wordspy. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 24 18:20:04 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:20:04 EST Subject: Spiggotie (1909); Firemen, or Moors and Christians Message-ID: SPIGGOTIE EL TORO: A MOTOR CAR STORY OF INTERIOR CUBA by E. Ralph Estep Packard Motor Car Company, Detroit 1909 Pg. 13: One was a country doctor who was riding miles to visit a stricken "spiggotie" in some distant hut. A spiggotie is any kind of a provincial Cuban, when mentioned by an outsider. He is one of that species of uncertain race which populates the Spanish-American countries and makes it difficult for a visitor to draw a color line between negro (Pg. 14--ed.) and Castillian blood. I have also met spiggoties who were a charming mixture of Spanish, negro, and Chinese. (John Ayto's OXFORD DICTIONARY OF SLANG (1998), pg. 37, gives 1910 for spiggoty/spiggity/spigotti/spigoty and guesses it's from "no spika de English." Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG (1998) has "19C, US" and "? broken English 'spikka da English.'" What cites does he have??--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- FIREMEN, OR MOORS AND CHRISTIANS CUBA by Irene A. Wright MacMillan Company, NY 1910 Pg. 83: CHAPTER IV _Arroz con Frijoles*_ *White rice and black beans,--a popular dish, known as "Moors and Christians," or, in Havana, as "Firemen,"--_i.e._ a vari-colored company. (The book has "_cazabi_ bread" on page 6 and much more. Gotta finish it--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 24 23:56:03 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 18:56:03 EST Subject: Mulligan (1900); Pina Fria (1910) Message-ID: MULLIGAN David Shulman was reading George Ade's ARTIE (1896), when he looked at the back and found an advertisement for Clarence Louis Cullen's TALES OF THE EX-TANKS (1900). How a book in 1896 can advertise a book for 1900, I dunno. Shulman, a meticulous reader, found lots in the first 20 pages. I flipped through it and found "mulligan." OEDS/RHHDAS has "mulligan" (stew) for 1904. Shulman should take credit for finding it and Cullen's work. TALES OF THE EX-TANKS: A BOOK OF HARD-LUCK STORIES by Clarence Louis Cullen Grosset and Dunlap, NY 1900 Pg. 369: ...I was down at the foot of Clay street (San Francisco--ed.) buying Mulligans--which consist of red peppers mixed with steamed beer--for a large and admiring bunch of 'longshoremen. They took turns telling me the stories of their lives, and then I'd purchase more Mulligans for 'em. They'd edge up and give me lung-to-lung talk about what a nice, chile con carne proposition I was whereupon I'd order additional beakers composed of red peppers and steamed beer for them, and the dripped green boys for myself. (That's Mulligan?...I suppose you want me to look for my "steamed beer" archives now--ed.) -------------------------------------------------------- PINA FRIA IN CUBA AND JAMAICA by H. G. de Lisser Gleaner Company, Kingston 1910 Pg. 10: You ask for "pina fria," and he takes a pineapple and peals it and cuts it into large chunks and pounds it up with white sugar and ice and water, and hands the concoction to you in a huge, thick tumbler, and you find it delicious. (Where's the rum?--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 25 01:25:13 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 20:25:13 EST Subject: TONY Eating & Drinking 2002; Table Talk Message-ID: EATING & DRINKING 2002 TIME OUT NEW YORK 344 pages, paperback, $11.95 When I reported on EATING & DRINKING 2000 (in November 1999), it was 264 pages and $9.95. It's added 80 pages. The print is small. This thing looks massive. It's conveniently divided by neighborhood and by cuisine. New York City is probably the food capital of the world, but keep in mind that--post 9/11--a lot of these restaurants are no longer in business. I could point out what's not in the OED, but I'd be here all day. See for yourself. CUE (which I'll finish up when I return from vacation) had four comprehensive dining guides each spring--Long Island, Upstate NY, NJ & PA, and New England. CUE is not indexed, not microfilmed, not digitally scanned, and I'm probably one of the only historians to go through it. TONY's EATING & DRINKING is a worthy publication in the CUE tradition. -------------------------------------------------------- TABLE TALK I've copied the index to all of the volumes. For a few years, however, the annual index was missing...The NYPL has it from 1887 and is missing volume one. I now have in this apartment an index (or columns) to TABLE TALK, AMERICAN COOKERY, GOURMET, BON APPETIT, THE COOK, THE CATERER, AMERICAN RESTAURANT, RESTAURANT MAN, THE RESTAURATEUR, AMERICAN KITCHEN, GOOD HOUSEKEEPING, BETTER HOMES & GARDENS, VOGUE, LADIES' HOME JOURNAL, WOMANS' HOME COMPANION, SUNSET, FAMILY CIRCLE, McCALL'S, HOUSE BEAUTIFUL, PLAYBOY, ESQUIRE, CUE, and I'm slowly reading the NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE.... From TABLE TALK's early volumes: VOLUME II (1887) Egyptian Rolls...136 Scotch Eggs...452 Swiss Eggs...210, 452 VOLUME III (1888) Cake, Carolina...543 Cake, New England Loaf...233 Cookies, New York...233 Oysters, Kabobs...88 Oysters, Keebobbed...103 "Painted Ladies"...87 Pie, Chess...58 Pie, Moonshine...42 Shrimp Rolls...512 VOLUME IV (1889) Cake, Sunshine...362 Eggs, Beauregard...204 Salad, Italian...287 Salad, Russian...458 VOLUME V (1890) Bread, Adirondack Corn...179 Bread, Kentucky Corn...345 Cake, Log Cabin...224 Hamburg Steaks...103, 171 Lobster, Newburg...179 Pie, Bethlehem Apple...134 Potatoes, Delmonico...60, 135 VOLUME VI (1891) Bun Cinnamon...208 Cake, Othello...409 Ice Cream, Neapolitan...313 VOLUME VII (1892) Lobster, Newberg...140, 203 VOLUME VIII (1893) Cake, Devil's...139 Cake, Sunshine...213 Pie, Apple, Moravian...87, 170 Salad, Japanese...427 VOLUME IX (1894) Cake, Devil's Food...44 Cake, Sunshine...143, 156 Ice Cream, Pistachio...237 Lobster, a la Newburg...87, 167. 388 Salad, Dandelion...242 Salad, Suedoise...279 Soup, Alphabets for...279 (_alphabet soup._ A soup, usually tomato or chicken based, containing pasta cut into the shapes of alphabet letters. The term saw print in 1934. --John Mariani, ENYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD & DRINK, 1999) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 25 09:47:15 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 04:47:15 EST Subject: Steam Beer (long!) Message-ID: Here, at last, is "steam beer." Patrick Murphy's syndicated "The Barman's Corner" mentioned "steam beer" in parts of about ten columns. I can't find all of the BUCKEYE TAVERN columns, but I found a few TAP & TAVERN columns. 10 September 1942, BUCKEYE TAVERN, pg. 6, col. 3: The home of steam beer is San Francisco--the old San Francisco of pre-Prohibition days. But we have yet to discover a San Francisco bartender who knows just what steam beer really is, or was. 21 March 1949, TAP & TAVERN, pg. 19, col. 1: This week, at long last as the writing boys day, we tracked down the origin of "steam beer." It's a question that's been asked by readers many times in the ten years or so this column has been running in beverage trade papers, and it's a question we have wanted to answer properly, for as a native San Franciscan we had a youthful recollection of "Steam Beer" signs. These signs you should be told, were to be found above the locked and empty premises of what were "saloons" in the era immediately before 1919 and the Volstead Act. When the Act became law, in 1920 we believe, the saloons closed their doors, but "Steam Beer" continued to be spelled out above the swinging portals, often in stained or colored glass--now a lost art to all but the church window industry, we might add. So, as a kid with an early morning paper route in San Francisco, we often trotted by the various bistros which had so recently been closed by the three large Prohibition groups under the impetus of World War I "patriotism," and we used to wonder just what the term meant. Our father told us, now and again, about how he and other members of Admiral Dewey's once famed "White Squadron" used to lay in the China Sea or some other far away place with a far away name, and let their minds dwell on good old San Francisco style steam beer. How their mouths did water for it, or more correctly, how their throats thirsted. It was, no doubt, quite a topic of conversation among the men who so handily defeated the Spaniards in 1898. _THE FACTS_ In these recent years of writing this beverage column, we've come upon several rumors regarding steam beer. One was that steam was used in the actual brewing prcoess, hence the term; another was that steam was used in cleaning pipes, vats, cases, etc., hence the term. Still another is that there might have been a "Mr. Steam" who originated this particular brew. None of these have any basis in fact. There is, in U.S.A. today, just one steam brewery left in the country, and it is located at 17th & Kansas Sts., San Francisco. It is a very small brewery indeed, doing less than 1,000 barrels yearly (the large brewers do from 500,000 to 1,000,000 barrels per year--even more in a few notable instances) and it is, so far as we can ascertain, the sole repository of any and all authentic information on steam beer, there being very little literature available on the subject. From the management of the firm, the Anchor Brewing Co., we have been told that the term "steam beer" is now and always has been used merely to signify that (Col. 2--ed.) this particular beer had a lot zip, foam, effervescence, a lot of "steam" in the slang sense. We still use that expression today--a pitcher puts a "lot of steam" behind a fast ball, and we "get our steam up" if we're agitated, and so on. It's a declining slang phrase, no doubt, as H. L. Mencken would probably agree, for steam engines and such are mostly obsolete in th is gasolene, diesel, electric and jet age. But a lively, frothy glass of beer, in the 1850's, '60's, '70's and so on, was certainly remindful of a "steamy glass of suds," and this simple and basic explanation is the true one for the origin of the term, the brewery assured me. And they should know. _SOME HISTORY_ Just one hundred years ago, as these words are writ, there started from the East a horde of Argonauts setting out for the gold fields of California. They came from New England, from Pennsylvania, Ohio, Illinois, barely waiting for the ending of the winter's snow to be on their way with wagon train, with or without family, to a new start in that fabled land where gold actually laid gleaming bright on the sandy river bottoms of the gurgling Sierra rivers. These Argonauts, more popularly termed '49'ers, brought with them a native thirst, which was first slaked by native wine and imports of South American brandy (we refer to Pisco Punch in particular), by tequila and rum and by bourbon and rye, brought by the ships left deserted in San Francisco harbor by the ship-jumping, gold-crazed sailors of all nations. That probably sufficed for the year 1849. But by 1850, there had been enough building, and enough of a stabilization in the metropolis of all this gold fever--San Francisco--to call for the establishm ent of one or more breweries, for beer. So beer was made, and from the start it was, believe it or not, steam beer. _NO AGING_ To a great extent, it HAD to be steam beer. This beer was made without the refrigeration devices available in established breweries of the East. It was not made for "laying away," which is what the term "lager beer" really means. These two slight differences were enough, however, to give it an entirely different flavor and person- (Copy cut off--ed.) (Col. 3--ed.) chener and so on. In short, the steam beer that came in 1850 (and it was made in 1850, records indicate) was really a product of the situation which confronted the early horde of gold seekers and adventurers. The particular type of brew that evolved, with its zestful "steam" head, became the pattern for San Francisco, which is to say the pattern for the West, since Los Angeles was then, as the remark is so often made, a "sleepy Spanish town." Even Oakland didn't figure in early steam beer, but we think Sacramento might well have, along with Reno. Anchor Brewing supplied your correspondent with a thesis written by Messrs. Gale and Dixon, of the U. of California, in which they observe that, and we quote pertinent points: "Steam beer is kegged with its own fermentation--evolved carbon dioxide (this) supplying sole carbonation and pressure." "More than 22 breweries for steam beer operated in S.F. alone until the fire and quake of 1906. Thereafter, although many of the breweries resumed operation, the socially elite had taken to bottled lager beer, and left steam beer for the working classes." "Prohibition put most of the steam breweries out of business. (Col. 4--ed.) In 1933, when Repeal became effective, few (steam breweries) reopened." Lager beer sales and merchandising were just too tough, competitively. (What happened, of course, wa that some of the steam breweries converted to lager. Your correspondent notes that Welland's, a famed California brwer today, was a steam beer maker in the early 1900's, for instance.) _OBSERVATIONS_ While the embryo savants of U.C. who wrote the above paper quoted from do not say so, a factor which certainly has worked against steam beer on the West Coast today is the lack of any draught beer in the region. This is just bottled beer country and that's all there is to it. As a result, a draught product such as steam beer we have discussed has a couple of strikes on it right away quick. This would not be true "back East." Few bars in California have draught dispensing equipment, believe it or not. So, the "future" of steam beer seems limited to its present outlets in the S.F. region. Such outlets, we relate for such visiting firemen as may come to San Francisco this 1949 A.D., are scattered, but the mainmost one is the Crystal Palace Market, on S.F.'s broad Market St. One local firm did try putting "steam beer" in bottles, but it didn't work and--or, as the lawyers say, didn't catch on. In general, these things are true: steam beer is fermented faster, is aged much less, places no sales reliance on calrity or sparkle. It contains, per keg, a small portion of "green beer" which, when introduced into the keg, causes a secondary fermentation. The keg, being sealed, holds in the gases given off by this fermentation, and these gases--just as in the instance of champagne--cause the pressure and foam which are present when the steam beer barrel is tapped. So much for a great institution of the U.S.A. this past century, which is now almost extinct. We find the subject so intriguing we'd like to write more, and will certainly welcome your observations or comments on this glorious suds of yesteryear. 13 November 1950, TAP & TAVERN, pg. 14, col. 1: PASSED a sign the other day, on the outside of a roadside restaurant, and got to thinking that to half of the passers-by it was meaningless, to those of us who are adding on the grey hairs regularly, it told a story. The sign: "FIRPO'S--STEAM BEER." If the first part of the sign leaves you unblinking, you're either very young or not a fight fan. If the second part is meaningless, you're likewise either young, or a stranger to the San Francisco of "the good old days." 18 June 1951, TAP & TAVERN, pg. 13, col. 1:ABOUT a year or so ago, this column discussed that almost extinct West Coast institution, "steam beer." To know about "steam" is a sure indication that a person's background includes a personal acquaintance with San Francisco or the West Coast 'way back when. Steam fell prey to the inroads of lager beer, a continuing process which has today practically eliminated the former product from the world of beverages. It was with quite some surprise, however, that we observed last month, in the course of a visit by Charles Kummerlander (Soren J. Heiberg Co., Chicago) to the West Coast, that in 1910 he "made the first lager beer in California." He did this at the Golden West Brewery in Hayward, Calif. So, it would seem from the record that California breweries were slow to change over, and that they made the change only after Eastern brewers more or less forced their hand with lager inroads...Speaking of steam, a San Francisco pub carries this chip of an announcement on its shoulder: "Steam Beer--the beer that d oesn't give a damn about Milwaukee"...But, who's kidding whom? (Off to Cuba. Be back January 2nd--ed.) From einstein at FROGNET.NET Tue Dec 25 15:57:43 2001 From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 10:57:43 -0500 Subject: Steam Beer Message-ID: The definition of steam beer strikes me as right: years ago I used to make beer. Not being able to put jugs of beer in the fridge for months, I only made it in the late fall or winter after the wild yeasts had been killed off by the frosts. When making beer, the yeast works the wort and produces a yeast cloud: beer is ready to bottle when the yeast cloud falls, leaving a clear liquor which contains no or little natural carbonation. In order to get a head on a beer, a small quantity of sugar has to be added to each bottle before capping. (The one year I tried using jug wine bottles for my beer a gallon jug exploded in the garage and, boy! did it stink up the attached basement!) If the beer is poured at room temperature a huge volume of suds is emitted--I can easily imagine a steam analogue attaching itself. ___________________ "The hardest thing in America is to be what one is softly" --Leon Wieseltier From Bapopik at AOL.COM Tue Dec 25 18:58:54 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:58:54 EST Subject: Bahama bits Message-ID: Greetings from the Nassau airport. My flight leaves for Cuba in about an hour...That should have been the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG in a past post. WHAT-TO-DO Nassau-Cable Beach-Paradise Island (www.bahamasnet.com) Pg. 99, col. 1: "Sky juice" is the number one drink here. It's a combination of gin and coconut water. It's so good says Evans, "it should have come from the heavens, so I called it sky juice." BAHAMIAN COCKTAILS AND MIXED DRINKS by Mike Henry LMH Publishing, Kingston 1980 1996 second edition 2001 revised edition Pg. 25: Caribbean Champagne Pg. 26: Cuban Cocktail (rum, sugar, lime) Pg. 28: Goombay Smash (Dark Rum, Old Nassau Coconut Rum, pineapple juice, lemon juice, Triple sec, syrup) Pg. 58: Bahamas Cow (rum liqueur, cold milk, egg) (Merry Christmas. Gotta go--ed.) From Semark at AOL.COM Tue Dec 25 20:18:19 2001 From: Semark at AOL.COM (Sarah Markin) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 15:18:19 EST Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: To whom this may concern, Sorry to post this but can you please let me know how to unsubscribe from the listserv. Thank you. Sarah Markin From FreeEmailSoftware2 at YAHOO.COM Tue Dec 25 22:09:34 2001 From: FreeEmailSoftware2 at YAHOO.COM (FreeEmailSoftware2 at YAHOO.COM) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 17:09:34 EST Subject: >>>ADVERTISE TO 11,953,000 PEOPLE FREE! Message-ID: Dear ads-l at uga.cc.uga.edu, Would you like to send an Email Advertisement to OVER 11,953,000 PEOPLE DAILY for FREE? Do you have a product or service to sell? Do you want an extra 100 orders per week? NOTE: (If you do not already have a product or service to sell, we can supply you with one). ========================================================= 1) Let's say you... Sell a $24.95 PRODUCT or SERVICE. 2) Let's say you... Broadcast Email to only 500,000 PEOPLE. 3) Let's say you... Receive JUST 1 ORDER for EVERY 2,500 EMAILS. CALCULATION OF YOUR EARNINGS BASED ON THE ABOVE STATISTICS: [Day 1]: $4,990 [Week 1]: $34,930 [Month 1]: $139,720 ======================================================== To find out more information, Do not respond by email. Instead, Please visit our web site at: http://www.bigcashtoday.com/package1.htm List Removal Instructions: We hope you enjoyed receiving this message. However, if you'd rather not receive future e-mails of this sort from Internet Specialists, send an email to freeemailsoftware3 at excite.com and type "remove" in the "subject" line and you will be removed from any future mailings. We hope you have a great day! Internet Specialists From boksang2 at GEOPIA.COM Tue Dec 25 23:58:51 2001 From: boksang2 at GEOPIA.COM () Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 08:58:51 +0900 Subject: ũ ܷӰ Ƿ? [] Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carljweber at MSN.COM Wed Dec 26 18:08:27 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:08:27 -0600 Subject: Hochelaga Etymology: Portuguese Message-ID: Hochelaga Etymology: Portuguese Carl Jeffrey Weber As an aside to Chicago Etymology. Hochelaga is a place name, writ large and mysterious in the mid-16th century on the famous maps of the deep interior of the North American Continent. It seems always to have been thought by scholars to be first recorded by the famous French explorer, Jacques Cartier, in 1535 - on his second voyage of discovery (and appearing, directly attributable to Cartier, on Pierre Descoliers' maps in the 1540s). It has been considerer a Huron-Iroquois word, variously meaning Large Town, Big Rapids, or Beaver Dam. However, Hochelaga (Ochelage), appearing on the following EARLIER Portuguese map, of 1534, challenges the traditional view, and opens the strong possibility that it is of IndoEuropean origin -- a water morpheme obviously suggested by "-laga." http://www.heritage.nf.ca/exploration/lavrador.html. The first part of the word, if by authentication, signifies the number "eight," the appearance of the word shows an uncanny prescience, the Great Lakes not having been (even roughly) sketched in on any map for another 116 years. (Of this "Hoche-" as the number, though, I'm at this point reserved.) The Portuguese in the Gulf of St. Laurence area was known early - as was the presence of other Europeans (but primarily as fleet fishing industries, not explorers). Particularly illustrative, though, the Portuguese are seen on the famous Cantino map of 1502. The Treaty of Tordesillas, 1494, is expressed on this map as the famous line separating the Spanish from the Portuguese --http://www.heritage.nf.ca/exploration/port_cantino.html. Note how little of the Continent was known. The word "Portugal," not very legible here, nonetheless, shows their claim in the St. Laurence region, near the top of the 1494 line. If these observations could be directed to the attention of a scholar of historical Portuguese, I would appreciate it. On similar Iberian cartographic evidence and historical context, "Canada" might also be determined to have been Portuguese, relating to the early descriptions of water foul that, to the astonished bedazzlement of the Europeans, blackened the skies betwixt the vast horizons. From AAllan at AOL.COM Wed Dec 26 18:49:08 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:49:08 EST Subject: New Britain, Connecticut Message-ID: I got a phone message from a reporter inquiring about the dialect of New Britain, Connecticut. Any experts I can refer him to? Any comments? Thanks - Allan Metcalf From jbaker at STRADLEY.COM Wed Dec 26 19:24:35 2001 From: jbaker at STRADLEY.COM (jbaker at STRADLEY.COM) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:24:35 -0800 Subject: YourDictionary.com's Top 2001 Words Message-ID: Apropos of the annual Word-of-the-Year discussions, here's an extant top 10 list. ******************** If you are having trouble with any of the links in this message, or if the URL's are not appearing as links, please follow the instructions at the bottom of this email. Title: CNN.com - 'Ground zero' tops 2001 word list - December 26, 2001 Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to access the sent link: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThis&etMailToID=468518322&pt=Y Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to SAVE THIS link: http://www.savethis.clickability.com/st/saveThisPopupApp?clickMap=saveFromET&partnerID=2001&etMailToID=468518322&pt=Y Copy and paste the following into your Web browser to forward this link: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=forward&etMailToID=468518322&partnerID=2001&pt=Y *Please note, the sender's email address has not been verified. ******************** Email pages from any Web site you visit - add the EMAIL THIS button to your browser, copy and paste the following into your Web browser: http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=browserButtons&pt=Y" ********************* Instructions: ----------------------------------------- If your e-mail program doesn't recognize Web addresses: 1. With your mouse, highlight the Web Address above. Be sure to highlight the entire Web address, even if it spans more than one line in your email. 2. Select Copy from the Edit menu at the top of your screen. 3. Launch your Web browser. 4. Paste the address into your Web browser by selecting Paste from the Edit menu. 5. Click Go or press Enter or Return on your keyboard. ******************** From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Wed Dec 26 19:16:57 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:16:57 -0500 Subject: Hillbilly Heroin In-Reply-To: <85.15284470.295896a6@aol.com> Message-ID: At 09:33 AM 12/24/01 -0500, you wrote: > "Hillbilly Heroin" should get some WOTY consideration, especially if > you add a category of new drug terms. I didn't spy it on the Wordspy. I hope to hell it won't, since it stigmatizes, once again, the Appalachian region. Oxycontin is indeed a scourge in this area, but West Virginia deserves better. _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 26 19:51:16 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:51:16 -0800 Subject: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries In-Reply-To: <000c01c18aa1$f7399b80$11820a0a@vneufeldt.sk.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: I'm sorry for dropping out of this thread after having started it... I originally posted this from a different list and the original poster didn't explain in any further detail why he thought percentage point has been missed. Looking at my AHD3 (sorry, it's the only monolingual English dictionary I have), point seems to work for this compound as in 20. A single unit, as in counting, rating or measuring. Percentage, though, seems quite a bit less clear: 1.a. A fraction or ratio with 100 understood as the denominator; for example, 0.98 equals a percentage of 98. b. The result obtained by multiplying a quantity by a percent. 2. A proportion or share in relation to a whole; a part: The hecklers constituted only a small percentage of the audience... While point has another definition that gets close, 23.a. A unit equal to one dollar, used to quote or state variations in the current prices of stocks or commodities. b. A unit equal to one percent, used to quote or state interest rates or shares in gross profits. it seems that the meaning of "percentage point" would not be transparent if the reader found these definitions. Benjamin Barrett gogaku at ix.netcom.com P.S. I have blind cced this back to the original poster as well :) > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 8:35 PM > > Dictionaries, by definition, deal primarily with > individual words and with > strings of words whose meaning is not simply the sum of > their constituent > parts (idiomatic phrases, open compounds). Transparent > noun phrases are not > normally included. I am assuming that 'percentage point' > is a transparent > noun phrase, meaning one point of percentage: e.g. 17 > percentage points = 17 > per cent. > > Victoria Neufeldt > > -----Original Message----- > I've observed that dictionaries often do a poor job in defining > phrases, as > opposed to individual words. That may be because there are so > many phrases, > the meanings of which can often be deduced from their components. For > example, in AHD you can look up percentage, and you can look up point (one > meaning -- "a single unit, as in counting, rating or measuring") -- and > pretty much understand what a percentage point is. From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Wed Dec 26 19:54:22 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 11:54:22 -0800 Subject: L or El? Marijuana Message-ID: Does anyone know how to spell the word "ell" used for marijuana and where it comes from? I asked a generation X-er and Y-er, but neither knew, and a couple of sites I looked at online don't seem to have it, either. Benjamin Barrett From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Wed Dec 26 19:51:39 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:51:39 -0500 Subject: New Britain, Connecticut In-Reply-To: Message-ID: AAllan at AOL.COM said: >I got a phone message from a reporter inquiring about the dialect of New >Britain, Connecticut. Any experts I can refer him to? Any comments? Thanks - Did it have to do with the pronunciation of the city name? It's very common in Connecticut to express scorn for the pronunciation with [?] for /t/ (even though this pronunciation is unbiquitous). I know just enough about CT dialect stuff to know that I don't know enough to be an open-ended expert. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Thu Dec 27 01:09:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 20:09:45 EST Subject: Junkanoo Message-ID: Greetings from Havana, Cuba. I?m staying at the Golden Tulip Hotel in Parque Central. It?s the best hotel in twon and quite pricey, but the internet was out half of today. I have about one minute for this. JUNKANOO--Is this in OED? See www.junkanoomagazine.com. A popular festival in the Bahamas. Perhaps related to ?John Canoe? or to ?Doukonou,? from Togo. BAH?MERICAN--Title of a column in the magazine. YALE GOSSIP COLUMNIST--A person in my group wore a YALE shirt today. I asked him what he did, and he said he was a gossip columnist. His name is Michael Lewittes, and he works for US magazine. I told him about the Walter Winchell problem, and that I?m looking for the lost NEW YORK GRAPHIC issues from the 1920s. Maybe he?ll help? HEMINGWAY DRANK HERE--Seems to be a Cuban version of the George Washington-sleeping-here phrase. From TlhovwI at AOL.COM Thu Dec 27 06:47:48 2001 From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 01:47:48 EST Subject: L or El? Marijuana Message-ID: I have heard many many words for marijuana, but "ell", or anything like it, is not one of them. Where was this heard? I have heard "el loco" before, though. -dsb Douglas S. Bigham Southern Illinois University - Carbondale From transedit.h at TELIA.COM Thu Dec 27 14:06:05 2001 From: transedit.h at TELIA.COM (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:06:05 +0100 Subject: L or El? Marijuana Message-ID: Benjamin Barrett asks >Does anyone know how to spell the word "ell" used for marijuana and where it comes from? A Swedish police officer, teaching at the Police Academy's Narcotics Center, has published a very interesting dictionary (in Swedish, but it should be easily understandable for an English-language linguist) containing over 5000 drug terms taken from many languages: Stefan Holm?n, "Pundartugg. Narkotikarelaterade slanguttryck" (1997, Polish?gskolan, S?rentorp, S-17192 Solna, Sweden, 412 p.) He has the following words which could be possible origins: "El Kif", North African name of cannabis; "Elle Momo", marijuana laced with PCP (Peace Pill, phencyclidine, angel dust); "Elva", cannabis from Bresil; "L.L." for cannabis. "L" alone is normally used for LSD. Sadly, he gives no indication of sources for individual words, just a general list of sources. Jan Ivarsson jan.ivarsson at transedit.st From kkmetron at HOME.COM Thu Dec 27 18:07:00 2001 From: kkmetron at HOME.COM (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:07:00 -0800 Subject: Afghanistan Redux Message-ID: I believe several weeks ago while I was away the suffix "-stan" was discussed. George Stewart (_Names on the Globe_) offers Persian stan, a common term for "land". From KKMetron at CS.COM Thu Dec 27 15:20:20 2001 From: KKMetron at CS.COM (Paul Kusinitz) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:20:20 EST Subject: Afghanistan Redux Message-ID: I believe several weeks ago while I was away the suffix "-stan" was topical. George Stewart (_Names on the Globe_) offers "the Persian common word for land." A Lithuanian website recently defined the element as Slavic for "government or camp." Will anyone be so kind as to retrieve ADS's definitive translation from memory's archives? Paul Kusinitz From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM Thu Dec 27 20:52:11 2001 From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 12:52:11 -0800 Subject: L or El? Marijuana In-Reply-To: <139.6da78b7.295c1e14@aol.com> Message-ID: I first heard it in the popular song "Must be the Money" (I assume that's the title) where they say, "Smokin' ell in the back of a limousine." El loco seems like a plausible source. Benjamin Barrett > -----Original Message----- > From: American Dialect Society > [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Douglas Bigham > > I have heard many many words for marijuana, but "ell", or > anything like it, > is not one of them. Where was this heard? > > I have heard "el loco" before, though. From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA Thu Dec 27 20:59:10 2001 From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (Thomas Paikeday) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:59:10 -0500 Subject: "MOTHER FUCKER" transparent? [was: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries] Message-ID: Victoria Neufeldt wrote: > . . . Bilingual and learners' dictionaries, especially, need to > provide information about collocations. I agree with Victoria, but what is the dividing line between learners and experts (not to speak of the line that divides collocations from traditional lexical items like idioms and phrases)? Here's an interesting story about a professor of English who fell between the two stools: This professor, may he rest in peace, had a doctorate in English from the University of London. His dissertation on a minor Victorian author was published by the author's cousin who ran a book publishing company in Australia. His editors apparently did a good copy-editing job on the manuscript. The text was flawless as far as I could see, but for obvious reasons, they dared not touch the Dedication, which read: "To my mother for her inordinate affection [to me]..." The editors probably thought, Hey, if something had been going on between mother and son, who are we to put in our two cents worth? Now, as all English experts and others (including learners beyond a certain grade level) know, "inordinate affection/love," is a collocational phrase that means something bad, very bad, in the contexts in which it is used. (Questions of sexual orientation would not be relevant). It occurs frequently in ascetical Christian religious literature, as in the socalled "Rodriguez" (Rodrigues?) volumes. "Inordinate," by morphology and definition, is negative in meaning ("disorderly or immoderate") and Rodriguez would be referring to homosexual and such affections, as betwen religious who have taken the vow of chastity; "particular friendship" is another term referring to the same concept in the above contexts. Incestuous love is included in the meaning of the term. When the phrase is applied to one's mother, I suppose the uncollocational semi-transparent idiomatic term "mother fucker" comes to mind. But it could be argued (English word composition being what it is) that the phrase doesn't make it transparent whether "mother" is the fucker or the fuckee. I suppose "m.f." is entered in most dictionaries of slang because of this nontransparency. If you are curious about how this egregious error (call it collocational, idiomatic, whatever) came about, the professor and his mother spoke a "mother tongue" in which "love" collocates with "limitless" (positive sense). "Inordinate love/affection" was probably the most idiomatic translation he could think up of the original phrase, "limitless love" being not even a good collocation. So, was the professor still a learner, an expert by virtue of his doctorate in English, or just bilingual? The main point of my story, as Victoria Neufeldt says, is that dictionaries should include a collocation "if it is common enough (and if warranted by the size of the particular dictionary, the intended audience, etc.)" Happy Holidays. TOM PAIKEDAY, lexicographer The User's(r) Webster Dictionary, 2000 ISBN: 0-920865-03-8 (cservice at genpub.com) From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET Thu Dec 27 23:12:36 2001 From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 18:12:36 -0500 Subject: FW: New Britain, Connecticut Message-ID: What Alice refers to below is true in native central CT dialect. Words affected include mountain, mitten, and the like, with (expected) medial flapped-t being realized as a glottal stop, when followed by syllabic n. These speakers do not have the glottal stop in words such as bottle, as characteristic of NYC dialects. I do not know of other clear markers to this dialect. It is an r-ful dialect, as are most to the west of the Connecticut River, within the state. This from personal observation (over about 20 years as a resident of the area) by a lexicographer, not formally trained in phonetics. larry (horn), further comments? Frank Abate -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Alice Faber Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 2:52 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: New Britain, Connecticut AAllan at AOL.COM said: >I got a phone message from a reporter inquiring about the dialect of New >Britain, Connecticut. Any experts I can refer him to? Any comments? Thanks - Did it have to do with the pronunciation of the city name? It's very common in Connecticut to express scorn for the pronunciation with [?] for /t/ (even though this pronunciation is unbiquitous). I know just enough about CT dialect stuff to know that I don't know enough to be an open-ended expert. From carljweber at MSN.COM Fri Dec 28 02:17:55 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 20:17:55 -0600 Subject: "MOTHER FUCKER" transparent? [was: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries] Message-ID: Thomas Paikeday wrote: <<< When the phrase is applied to one's mother, I suppose the uncollocational semi-transparent idiomatic term "mother fucker" comes to mind. But it could be argued (English word composition being what it is) that the phrase doesn't make it transparent whether "mother" is the fucker or the fuckee. I suppose "m.f." is entered in most dictionaries of slang because of this nontransparency. <<< I would say, IMMFHO, being a trans parent is a different issue. Notice in your "x x" compound term that if you delete the agentive in the second item, and replace it with the affix "-ing", it becomes adjectival and, as you'll see, belies the deep structure. Notice how this parses in bruh-thuh speak with added noun: "muh-thuh fuh-kin' poophead". If you put them in a tree, add copulation, and then shake the tree, you get "poophead is fuhkin' muthuh" (unduh the tree). Whether mom is a "who" or a "whom" becomes obvious. It could be there's some other reason it's not in the dictionary. CJW From douglas at NB.NET Fri Dec 28 04:24:00 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:24:00 -0500 Subject: L or El? Marijuana In-Reply-To: <139.6da78b7.295c1e14@aol.com> Message-ID: HDAS shows "L" = "marijuana", apparently a recent term. J. Green's Cassell slang dictionary also shows this "L", with the explanation that it's an abbreviation for "log" (a little bigger than a "J", I suppose). -- Doug Wilson From funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM Fri Dec 28 03:25:25 2001 From: funkmasterj at MAILANDNEWS.COM (Jordan Rich) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 22:25:25 -0500 Subject: "MOTHER F*CKER" transparent? [was: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries] In-Reply-To: <3C2B8B9E.FB8EDB7F@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: At 03:59 PM 12/27/01 -0500, Thomas Paikeday wrote: >Victoria Neufeldt wrote: > >When the phrase is applied to one's mother, I suppose the >uncollocational semi-transparent idiomatic term "mother fucker" comes to >mind. But it could be argued (English word composition being what it is) >that the phrase doesn't make it transparent whether "mother" is the >fucker or the fuckee. I suppose "m.f." is entered in most dictionaries >of slang because of this nontransparency. I don't know that the term M.F. is transparent. Different definitions for the term are: Roger Abrahams in Deep Down in the Jungle (Aldine de Gruyer: Hawthorne, NY 1970: page 32) described it as anti-female term. However, Geneva Smitherman in Talkin And Testifyin (Wayne State University Press: Detroit, MI: 1977: pages 60-62), while ascribing both positive and negative definitions to the term, disagrees with the more literal meaning. Cecil Brown, in his Doctoral Dissertation: Stagolee From Shack Bully to Culture Hero (University of California, Berkeley, 1993, pages: 82-83) disagrees with Abrahams' definition of the term. Also, it is a term to describe Miles Davis fans. I am sure there other such discussions, but these are the ones that I recall. Jordan Rich Independent Scholar From AAllan at AOL.COM Fri Dec 28 16:21:28 2001 From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:21:28 EST Subject: ADS Annual Meeting schedule Message-ID: Two speakers will be unable to attend our Annual Meeting in San Francisco next week and have canceled their presentations. They are Nancy Elliott and Gina Collins, scheduled to speak at noon and at 12:30 p.m. Saturday, January 5. So there is just one presentation left in our Session 7 starting at 11:30 a.m. that day. It gives an hour of free time before our luncheon at 1:15 p.m. It's in our September Newsletter (on our website, if you don't have a hard copy), page 12. Just cross out presentations 24 and 25. We're still left with 26 interesting presentations, starting at 12:30 p.m. Thursday, January 3. See you there! - Allan Metcalf From vze36g5m at VERIZON.NET Fri Dec 28 18:40:28 2001 From: vze36g5m at VERIZON.NET (Grant Barrett) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:40:28 -0500 Subject: List messages aren't reaching me In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011228131401.00a6d7f0@nb.net> Message-ID: On 12/28/01 13:22, "Douglas G. Wilson" wrote: > Is it just me, or are others having the same experience? > > Looking at the archive, I find most of the list messages during the last > couple of days have not reached me. I sent one (the last one over my name), > it appeared in the archive after a few hours, but never came back to me > from the list. I sent a test message directly to myself without a problem. > > Have I been Spanish-walked off the list for inordinate scurrility or > sculduddery? Is my e-mail server flaky? Or is it a problem with the list > server? All seems well here. I am receiving all messages that appear in the archives. I have, however, had a problem with the list in the recent past of sending messages to the server only to have them appear nowhere: not on the list, not in the archive and no bounce. From douglas at NB.NET Fri Dec 28 18:22:08 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:22:08 -0500 Subject: List messages aren't reaching me Message-ID: Is it just me, or are others having the same experience? Looking at the archive, I find most of the list messages during the last couple of days have not reached me. I sent one (the last one over my name), it appeared in the archive after a few hours, but never came back to me from the list. I sent a test message directly to myself without a problem. Have I been Spanish-walked off the list for inordinate scurrility or sculduddery? Is my e-mail server flaky? Or is it a problem with the list server? -- Doug Wilson From Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM Fri Dec 28 19:14:15 2001 From: Jewls2u at WHIDBEY.COM (Jewls2u) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:14:15 -0800 Subject: L or El? Marijuana In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011227232144.00ab0860@nb.net> Message-ID: My husband went to high school in San Pedro and there the hispanics called marajuana lenio or bota...phenetic spelling. He also recalls it being called 13 (M being the 13th letter of the alphabet). Julienne -----Original Message----- From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of Douglas G. Wilson Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 8:24 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: L or El? Marijuana HDAS shows "L" = "marijuana", apparently a recent term. J. Green's Cassell slang dictionary also shows this "L", with the explanation that it's an abbreviation for "log" (a little bigger than a "J", I suppose). -- Doug Wilson From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Fri Dec 28 18:23:58 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 13:23:58 -0500 Subject: FW: New Britain, Connecticut Message-ID: The "expected" medial consonant here would not be the flapped-t, which is heard in 'butter', 'fatter', 'bottle', etc. in "ordinary" American English. The glottal stop IS common in 'mountain' and 'mitten', and not just in CT; but the alternate form is [t], as in NYC, if I'm not mistaken. But does NYC use [t] in 'bottle'? Surely not the glottal stop, which is used in this word in much Brit. Eng. but not in Am. Eng., as far as I know. The words I cite in class as "disputed" in Am. Eng. are generally proper names, like Clinton, Scranton, Hinton, etc., where spelling pronunciation tends to produce [t] medially (foreign reporters routinely pronounce the first ex. with [t], RP style). New Britain would fall under this same rubric. It doesn't seem to me that 'mountain' and 'mitten' and 'button' etc. are regionally differentiated outside of NYC/NJ--but I'm open to disputation. At 06:12 PM 12/27/01 -0500, you wrote: >What Alice refers to below is true in native central CT dialect. Words >affected include mountain, mitten, and the like, with (expected) medial >flapped-t being realized as a glottal stop, when followed by syllabic n. >These speakers do not have the glottal stop in words such as bottle, as >characteristic of NYC dialects. I do not know of other clear markers to >this dialect. It is an r-ful dialect, as are most to the west of the >Connecticut River, within the state. > >This from personal observation (over about 20 years as a resident of the >area) by a lexicographer, not formally trained in phonetics. > >larry (horn), further comments? > >Frank Abate > >-----Original Message----- >From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf >Of Alice Faber >Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 2:52 PM >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU >Subject: Re: New Britain, Connecticut > > >AAllan at AOL.COM said: > >I got a phone message from a reporter inquiring about the dialect of New > >Britain, Connecticut. Any experts I can refer him to? Any comments? >Thanks - > >Did it have to do with the pronunciation of the city name? It's very common >in Connecticut to express scorn for the pronunciation with [?] for /t/ >(even though this pronunciation is ubiquitous). > >I know just enough about CT dialect stuff to know that I don't know enough >to be an open-ended expert. _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From FreeEmailSoftware2 at YAHOO.COM Sat Dec 29 01:01:57 2001 From: FreeEmailSoftware2 at YAHOO.COM (FreeEmailSoftware2 at YAHOO.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 20:01:57 EST Subject: >>>ADVERTISE TO 11,953,000 PEOPLE FREE! Message-ID: Dear ads-l at uga.cc.uga.edu, Would you like to send an Email Advertisement to OVER 11,953,000 PEOPLE DAILY for FREE? Do you have a product or service to sell? Do you want an extra 100 orders per week? NOTE: (If you do not already have a product or service to sell, we can supply you with one). ========================================================= 1) Let's say you... Sell a $24.95 PRODUCT or SERVICE. 2) Let's say you... Broadcast Email to only 500,000 PEOPLE. 3) Let's say you... Receive JUST 1 ORDER for EVERY 2,500 EMAILS. CALCULATION OF YOUR EARNINGS BASED ON THE ABOVE STATISTICS: [Day 1]: $4,990 [Week 1]: $34,930 [Month 1]: $139,720 ======================================================== To find out more information, Do not respond by email. Instead, Please visit our web site at: http://www.bigcashtoday.com List Removal Instructions: We hope you enjoyed receiving this message. However, if you'd rather not receive future e-mails of this sort from Internet Specialists, send an email to listremovalstoday at yahoo.com and type "remove" in the "subject" line and you will be removed from any future mailings. We hope you have a great day! Internet Specialists From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 29 00:36:45 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 19:36:45 EST Subject: Cocotaxis & Camels Message-ID: Greetings again from Havana. It?s bizarre seeing all these 1950s cars...Walking out of the hotel is always a challenge--everyone approaches you. "Taxi?" "What is the time?" "What are you looking for?" "Where are you from?" "My friend--!" "Canada!!!!" I have a free day tomorrow, and I?ll see if the national library is open. I?m looking for newspapers in English from the 1920s-1950s. I know of a few, such as the HAVANA JOURNAL. I have limited time on this internet, but maybe someone can check the Cuban national library?s (online?) catalog and make research requests/suggestions for Saturday. COCOTAXI--Or, Coco Taxi. A taxi that?s more like a golf cart. It looks like half of a shell of something. CAMEL--The local bus. It?s a truck, with a two-humped thing in back for passengers. It?s very long; a really strange public transportation vehicle to see on the highways. TOURIST TREE--a turpentine tree, because the bark is flaky, like a tourist with sunburn. SANDWICH HABANERO--ham, cheese, vegetables, roasted pork. HELADO CUBANO--vainilla (sic) and chocolate ice cream. white rum, coffee. These drinks are at my Golden Tulip hotel: MOJITO DAIQUIRI FRAPPE RON COLLINS HAVANA SPECIAL CUBA LIBRE MULATA--dark rum, lemon juice, creme de cacao brown CUBATA--dark rum, cola, lemon juice...$5.25 Coffee: GARIBALDI--Golden Rum, whipped cream HEMINGWAY--Bourbon Whiskey Jack Daniels CUBANITO--Served at the nearby Plaza Hotel, but I didn?t see the ingredients listed. From Davidhwaet at AOL.COM Sat Dec 29 04:45:55 2001 From: Davidhwaet at AOL.COM (David Carlson) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 23:45:55 EST Subject: FW: New Britain, Connecticut Message-ID: In my salad days I dated a girl from New Britain whose pron of the city did include the glottal stop which I never thought of as particularly unusual since my aunt (Norwood, Boston, and Walpole all MA) used the glottal stop regularly in cattle, bottle, mitten, and button. A female friend of mine from those same days solved her glottal stop locution in bottle by referring to said object as a flask. New Britain is typically r-ful Inland Northern, but is common for < idea> and the pronunciation of Saturday can be either [saerdi] or [saerde]. David R. Carlson Amherst MA formerly fron Norwood MA 14 mi this side of Fenway Park. From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Sat Dec 29 09:12:46 2001 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 02:12:46 -0700 Subject: Medial -/t/- (was New Britain, Conn) Message-ID: This South Texan pronounces medial -/t/- in 'bottle', 'latter' as a voiced stop (i.e. [d]), so that 'latter' and 'ladder' are homophonous, as in the old conundrum, "The carpenter put down his ladder and saw, and then picked up the [laed at r]. Which one did he pick up?" In British RP the -/t/- is voiceless and aspirated. I'm not sure what Beverly meant by calling the pronunciation of 'Clinton', 'Scranton', etc. "disputed" (I think that's the term she used -- I can't check now). I have an unreleased [t] followed by a syllabic nasal. Again, Rosemary Church on CNN and many news announcers (I think even Dan Rather, when he tries) keep a tertiarily stressed schwa in the final syllable of 'Clinton', etc., making it -[t at n]. Rudy From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Dec 29 11:18:27 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 11:18:27 -0000 Subject: L or El? Marijuana Message-ID: Been away. Thus the gap in this response: I think Doug Wilson misread my entry, the abbrev. as far as I know (and printed) it is for _loc_ (not _log_), itself abbreviating _locoweed_. JG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas G. Wilson" To: Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 4:24 AM Subject: Re: L or El? Marijuana > HDAS shows "L" = "marijuana", apparently a recent term. > > J. Green's Cassell slang dictionary also shows this "L", with the > explanation that it's an abbreviation for "log" (a little bigger than a > "J", I suppose). > > -- Doug Wilson > From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Dec 29 12:08:57 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:08:57 -0000 Subject: Spiggotie (1909); Firemen, or Moors and Christians Message-ID: Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG (1998) has "19C, US" and "? broken English 'spikka da English.'" What cites does he have??--ed.) > To date, other than this, a TAD one for 1908 (thanks to L. Zwilling). JG From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 29 15:15:44 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:15:44 EST Subject: Junkanoo Lingo Message-ID: I have a few internet minutes. From JUNAKANOO MAGAZINE, December 2001, pg. 20, col. 2: _JUNKANOO LINGO_ TO RUSH--(We rushin?) Participating actively in Junkanoo as part of an organized or unorganized costumed group; dancing, shaking the cast iron cowbells or blowing the cow?s horn, the whistle or the bugle or beating the goat or sheep skin drums by hand, creating the pulsating rhythm of Junkanoo. TO RUSH SCRAP--Participating in the Junkanoo parade without being part of a specific group, theme or organization, with no particular costume or music assignment. SCRAP GANG--An unorganized group of Junkanoo'ers who come to the parade with no particular costume design, music or organization. GET IN LINE--Forming lines to begin the Junkanoo parade. The linesman?s duty is to make certain that all Junkanoo'ers are in line and remain in formation throughout the parade. KALIK--The sound of the shaking of the cowbells, and the word that the Junkanoo'ers repeat as they mock the sound of the bells. Also, the name of the popular Bahamian beer, named after the sound of the Junkanoo cowbells. DOONGALIK--The sound of the beating of the drums and the word that the Junkanoo'ers repeat as they mock the sound of the drums. Also, the name of the Junkanoo art studio known for its production of Junkanoo art. FIRST LAP--Each group's first completion of the entire circular Junkanoo route. LAST LAP--Each group's final completion of the entire circular Junkanoo route. HEATING THE DRUM--Heating of the drums over an open fire to produce the proper Junkanoo sound. The open end of the drum is placed over the fire at a safe distance to allow the skin on the other end to be resilient and stretched until the proper tone is achieved. This process is repeated before the beginning of every lap. THE SHACK--This is the place where Junkanoo artists and artisans meet to design, layout, paste up and produce Junkanoo costumes and artwork. It is also the official headquarters where members of the various group meet to discuss and plan strategies for Junkanoo. In some cases, there is more than one "shack" to accommodate the designs and costumes wherever space is available. THEY COMIN'--The Junkanoo group is coming down the parade route from around the bend and entertaining the main thoroughfare. MISC._: Forget "Firemen." It's "Moors and Christians" everywhere for "rice and beans." Is OED going to add this? A Bahamas magazine containing food items has Conch Salad, Conch Chowder, Cracked Conch, Peas 'n' Rice, Conch Fritters, and Grouper Fingers. Off to the National Library of Cuba. From vze36g5m at VERIZON.NET Sat Dec 29 15:36:36 2001 From: vze36g5m at VERIZON.NET (Grant Barrett) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:36:36 -0500 Subject: Junkanoo Lingo In-Reply-To: <29.2038d51c.295f3821@aol.com> Message-ID: I'd compare the Junkanoo to other Caribbean celebrations such as jump-ups and Jouvert. From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Dec 29 14:54:21 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 09:54:21 -0500 Subject: Spiggotie (1909); Firemen, or Moors and Christians In-Reply-To: <001101c19061$9f48f270$023264c0@green> Message-ID: Does this mean a little bitty ole one? dInIs (citing the only TAD he knows, although he reckons he'll be blasted for this ignorance of acronyms; I wish there was a Barhardt American Dictionary) > Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG (1998) has "19C, US" >and "? broken English 'spikka da English.'" What cites does he have??--ed.) >> > >To date, other than this, a TAD one for 1908 (thanks to L. Zwilling). > >JG -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Dec 29 17:13:50 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:13:50 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22heads_I_win_=96_tails_you_lose=22?= Message-ID: I have been working resolutely through the "Evening Star" of New York in the mid 1830s. The editor was Mordecai Noah, and his earlier newspapers -- the National Aadvocate and the New-York Enquirer -- had been pretty good sources for interesting words. Not much in this one, so far, though. I have learned that the businessmen who work on Wall Street don't choose to live in the city, but instead commute in every day from their country estates, out near Astor Place. Also a spine- tingling ghost story: in an unspecified house, the bells in the servants quarters began ringing at odd hours, and when the maids went to answer there was no one there. The servants all quit, not choosing to be summoned by ha'nts, and the children were afraid to go to sleep at night. Then someone caught the family cat playing with the bell rope. But I digress. . . . 1835: In relation to the [stock] brokers, we fear it has been "heads I win ? tails you lose" Evening Star, January 17, 1835, p. 2, col. 3 I see in the OED, sense 3b, under Head, noun, citations giving this phrase from 1846 and 1907, both English. Whiting's Early American Proverbs has it from 1814. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sat Dec 29 17:36:47 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 17:36:47 -0000 Subject: Spiggotie (1909); Firemen, or Moors and Christians Message-ID: Mea whatever. Leonard Zwilling; A TAD Lexicon (ie an annotated dictionary of the work of T.A. Dorgan) (1993) JG ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis R. Preston" To: Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 2:54 PM Subject: Re: Spiggotie (1909); Firemen, or Moors and Christians > Does this mean a little bitty ole one? > > dInIs (citing the only TAD he knows, although he reckons he'll be > blasted for this ignorance of acronyms; I wish there was a Barhardt > American Dictionary) > > > Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG (1998) has "19C, US" > >and "? broken English 'spikka da English.'" What cites does he have??--ed.) > >> > > > >To date, other than this, a TAD one for 1908 (thanks to L. Zwilling). > > > >JG > > -- > Dennis R. Preston > Department of Linguistics and Languages > Michigan State University > East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA > preston at pilot.msu.edu > Office: (517)353-0740 > Fax: (517)432-2736 > From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Sat Dec 29 17:33:16 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:33:16 -0500 Subject: binky Message-ID: My wife calls my attention to Bill Gallo's cartoon in the Daily News of December 23, 2001, p. 82. In the lower right corner of the drawing is a diapered baby, with a pacifier in its mouth. There is a label reading "binky, the ol' reliable" and an arrow pointing to the pacifier. This caught my wife's attention because her mother had called pacifiers "binkies". I've never heard the word and don't find it in the usual dictionaries. DARE has (1) "any little mechanical contrivance" from 1912 and (2) as the answer to the question "the part of the body that you sit on", 1968. The lamented mother-in-law was born in southwestern Penn. in about 1904 to a family with roots there of several generations, and she lived there all of her life. I know that Bill Gallo is a New Yorker old enough to have been in the marines during WWII, and his last name suggests to me that he is not Scots Presbyterian. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sat Dec 29 17:36:00 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:36:00 -0500 Subject: Medial -/t/- (was New Britain, Conn) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Rudolph C Troike said: >This South Texan pronounces medial -/t/- in 'bottle', 'latter' as a voiced >stop (i.e. [d]), so that 'latter' and 'ladder' are homophonous, as in the >old conundrum, "The carpenter put down his ladder and saw, and then picked >up the [laed at r]. Which one did he pick up?" In British RP the -/t/- is >voiceless and aspirated. I'm not sure what Beverly meant by calling the >pronunciation of 'Clinton', 'Scranton', etc. "disputed" (I think that's >the term she used -- I can't check now). I have an unreleased [t] followed >by a syllabic nasal. Again, Rosemary Church on CNN and many news >announcers (I think even Dan Rather, when he tries) keep a tertiarily >stressed schwa in the final syllable of 'Clinton', etc., making it -[t at n]. All my notes on glottal stop for /t/ in New England are in the lab, so this is from memory. I believe that in this area, you find a fair amount of variability in /ntn/ sequences, as in Clinton*, Scranton. Clinton is a suburb of New Haven, and its pronunciation isn't remarked upon. Groton, like Clinton, is universally pronounced with a [?] for /t/, and, in both towns, "local" pronunciations are stigmatized. (Marianna Di Paolo told me that a similar phenomenon occurs with the pronunciation of Layton (Utah).) I *may* be imagining it, but I believe that the actual difference resides in the pronunciation of the syllabic [n]. The normal pronunciation is [?] followed by syllabic [n] (with no discernible vowel quality). However, one occasionally hears [?] followed by an ultra-short copy of the vowel preceding [?], followed by [n]. So what's stigmatized is [brI?In] not [brI?n]. *As I was composing this, my first thought was that, well of course Clinton doesn't have [?]; the preceding /n/ blocks the change of /t/ to [?]. Then I said it out loud: [klIn?n]. So much for introspection! Alice From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Dec 29 18:09:49 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:09:49 -0500 Subject: Medial -/t/- (was New Britain, Conn) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alice, Say it isn't so! Intropection rules. I think the preceding /n/ (in "Clinton") is et up by its nasalization of the preceding vowel and the block on the glottal stop replacement of /t/ is removed. I also suspect that you are right about stigmatization. It isn't stigmatization of the glottal stop unless it's in an intervocalic posiiton. When the glottal stop is a rapid "onset" to the following syllabic /n/, I suspect there is no stigma. (I personally know this must be the case becuase I do the latter but not the former, and who would stignmatize my 1940's endowed Louisville, KY speech?) In such processes, however,m there may be ,lixically-nased stigmatization. The 'bidnis' pronunciation (of "business") is highly sitgmatized where I'm from, even by people who have uttered "wadn't, "idn't" and the like commmenting on it. Similarly, 'hep" for "help" is highly stigmatized (although vocalization of /l/ with a trace vowel left behind is not. On the other hamnd, complete loss (admittedly in l+C environments, like "woof" for "wolf," which always makes my funny-talking Milwaukee wife turn to me and say "bow-wow") lacks such stigma. dInIs >Rudolph C Troike said: >>This South Texan pronounces medial -/t/- in 'bottle', 'latter' as a voiced >>stop (i.e. [d]), so that 'latter' and 'ladder' are homophonous, as in the >>old conundrum, "The carpenter put down his ladder and saw, and then picked >>up the [laed at r]. Which one did he pick up?" In British RP the -/t/- is >>voiceless and aspirated. I'm not sure what Beverly meant by calling the >>pronunciation of 'Clinton', 'Scranton', etc. "disputed" (I think that's >>the term she used -- I can't check now). I have an unreleased [t] followed >>by a syllabic nasal. Again, Rosemary Church on CNN and many news >>announcers (I think even Dan Rather, when he tries) keep a tertiarily >>stressed schwa in the final syllable of 'Clinton', etc., making it -[t at n]. > >All my notes on glottal stop for /t/ in New England are in the lab, so this >is from memory. I believe that in this area, you find a fair amount of >variability in /ntn/ sequences, as in Clinton*, Scranton. Clinton is a >suburb of New Haven, and its pronunciation isn't remarked upon. Groton, >like Clinton, is universally pronounced with a [?] for /t/, and, in both >towns, "local" pronunciations are stigmatized. (Marianna Di Paolo told me >that a similar phenomenon occurs with the pronunciation of Layton (Utah).) >I *may* be imagining it, but I believe that the actual difference resides >in the pronunciation of the syllabic [n]. The normal pronunciation is [?] >followed by syllabic [n] (with no discernible vowel quality). However, one >occasionally hears [?] followed by an ultra-short copy of the vowel >preceding [?], followed by [n]. So what's stigmatized is [brI?In] not >[brI?n]. > >*As I was composing this, my first thought was that, well of course Clinton >doesn't have [?]; the preceding /n/ blocks the change of /t/ to [?]. Then I >said it out loud: [klIn?n]. So much for introspection! > >Alice -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Sat Dec 29 18:13:30 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:13:30 -0500 Subject: Medial -/t/- (was New Britain, Conn) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Alice, I think I meant "introspection" rather than "intropection," which I hesitate to define (though I am sure wags are out there who have already been tempted). dInIs > >Say it isn't so! Intropection rules. I think the preceding /n/ (in >"Clinton") is et up by its nasalization of the preceding vowel and >the block on the glottal stop replacement of /t/ is removed. > -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From lisawitt at GTE.NET Sat Dec 29 18:30:52 2001 From: lisawitt at GTE.NET (Lisa Wittenberg Hillyard) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 10:30:52 -0800 Subject: L or El? Marijuana Message-ID: I've heard marijuana referred to as LB referencing the abbreviation for pound. Perhaps L is a further reduction. From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU Sat Dec 29 18:18:56 2001 From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 13:18:56 -0500 Subject: Medial -/t/- (was New Britain, Conn) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It hadn't even occurred to me to wonder. I'd better go have another cup of coffee. Dennis R. Preston said: >>Alice, > > >I think I meant "introspection" rather than "intropection," which I >hesitate to define (though I am sure wags are out there who have >already been tempted). > >dInIs > >> >>Say it isn't so! Intropection rules. I think the preceding /n/ (in >>"Clinton") is et up by its nasalization of the preceding vowel and >>the block on the glottal stop replacement of /t/ is removed. > From douglas at NB.NET Sat Dec 29 19:50:07 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:50:07 -0500 Subject: L or El? Marijuana In-Reply-To: <007101c1905a$8ba33570$023264c0@green> Message-ID: >I think Doug Wilson misread my entry, the abbrev. as far as I know (and >printed) it is for _loc_ (not _log_), itself abbreviating _locoweed_. That's right, sorry. [I carefully followed up "log" to make sure that's what it said, and it seemed to be OK ... but I have no excuse for ignoring the latest decade of 'culture', I guess. My failing eyesight, plus a little tiny glitch on the page.] -- Doug Wilson From soyun23 at HOTMAIL.COM Sat Dec 29 20:43:47 2001 From: soyun23 at HOTMAIL.COM (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?vNK/rMDM?=) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 05:43:47 +0900 Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?W7GksO1dILzSv6zAzLChIMPfw7XHz7TCILv1svYgtb+/tbvzICgxOby8wMy787D8tvcp?= Message-ID: Carsex24 ?? ??? [????] missnude.co.kr Carsex24 ?? ??? [????] missnude.co.kr ?? ?????? ?? ???? 100% ????? ?? 60??? ????? ????? ???? ????, ????? ???????, ?????, ????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? 1?? ??? - 12000? 3?? ??? - 30000? (???????) Carsex24? ?????? ????????. ???????? From JBaker at STRADLEY.COM Sat Dec 29 21:39:34 2001 From: JBaker at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 16:39:34 -0500 Subject: binky Message-ID: My wife, from eastern Massachusetts, has this, and I was initially mystified. It turns out that Binky is a registered trademark for pacifiers, currently owned, I believe, by Playtex Products, and apparently used since 1935. John Baker > -----Original Message----- > From: George Thompson [SMTP:george.thompson at NYU.EDU] > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 12:33 PM > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU > Subject: binky > > My wife calls my attention to Bill Gallo's cartoon in the Daily News of > December 23, 2001, p. 82. In the lower right corner of the drawing is > a diapered baby, with a pacifier in its mouth. There is a label > reading "binky, the ol' reliable" and an arrow pointing to the pacifier. > > This caught my wife's attention because her mother had called > pacifiers "binkies". I've never heard the word and don't find it in > the usual dictionaries. DARE has (1) "any little mechanical > contrivance" from 1912 and (2) as the answer to the question "the part > of the body that you sit on", 1968. > > The lamented mother-in-law was born in southwestern Penn. in about 1904 > to a family with roots there of several generations, and she lived > there all of her life. I know that Bill Gallo is a New Yorker old > enough to have been in the marines during WWII, and his last name > suggests to me that he is not Scots Presbyterian. > > GAT > > George A. Thompson > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern > Univ. Pr., 1998. > > > ******************************************* > * This email has been scanned for viruses * > * Stradley Ronon Stevens & Young, LLP * > ******************************************* > From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 29 23:41:00 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:41:00 EST Subject: Soda Jerk Slang & Coney Island Chicken (Winchell, 1933) Message-ID: Bad news & good news from the Cuban National Library. The bad news is, as expected, the library is awful. No computers or copiers that I could see, or even microfilm machines. The cookbooks that I looked up in the card catalog didn?t seem very interesting The Library of Congress has HAVANA POST (1900-1960), HAVANA TELEGRAM (1922-1938), and HAVANA, THE MAGAZINE OF CUBA (1929-1930), and I?ll check them out next week. This library has the same thing. I said what I wanted (newspapers in English), and was brought just the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM for 1933. I read the entire year. The good news is that Walter Winchell?s column was in the newspaper, I hadn?t read Winchell in 1933, and it?s a goldmine! 3 February 1933, pg. 4, col. 2: _Add Slanguage._ The slanguage used by the waiters of Dinty Moore's restaurant fascinated us the other sundown when, while seated in the rear near the chef, we heard a waiter ask for: "Two nose warmers!" "What's a nose warmer?" we asked Moore. "Consomme in a cup," he explained, as he told the chef to prepare "five bouquets." "What's a bouquet?" we asked. "A side order of lettuce with a slice of tomato on top!" 1 June 1933, pg. 2, col. 3: _Code._ A Hollywood soda-jerker forwards rthis glossary of soda-fountain lingo out there..."Shoot one" and "Draw one" is one coke and one coffee..."Shoot one in the red!" means a cherry coke...An "echo" is a repeat order..."Eighty-six" means all out of it..."Eighty-one" is a glass of water..."Thirteen" means one of the big bosses is drifting around...A "red ball" is an orangeade..."Squeeze one" is a limeade..."Eighty-nine" means that a movie player of importance is in the store, and "Twisted, choke and make it cackle!" means a chocolate malted milk--with an egg in it. 10 June 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _Soda Jerker Slang._ J. A. J. argues that the contributor from Hollywood who supplied the recent soda jerker slanguage here was behind the times. In New York, for instance, near Loew?s State, this is how the lingoes: A "bale of hay" or a "stack of straw" is a dish of strawberry ice cream. "Draw a pair" is two cups of coffee--and when the boss is out, the signal for the crew is a "pair of draws!" 8 July 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: The grandest way to fry eggs! Arthur Hornblow of the United Artists Studio made it popular in Hollywood...He first knifes thick slices of French bread, and then scoops out most of the white part, leaving a little of it on the rim of the crust--which is heavily buttered (the inside of the crust)...He then drops the egg into the circles of thick slices of bread--and there you are. 10 October 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: When the first half of the 2nd game was dull I got a laugh out of a flip-crackling hot-dog vendor, who kept yelling: "Here ya are! Get ya hot franks--better known as Coney Island chicken!" From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 29 23:46:11 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:46:11 EST Subject: Gay (Winchell, 1933)(continued) Message-ID: From the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM, Walter Winchell?s column, 4 October 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _Of All Things._ No week, it seems, passes without some heckler pointing out that some of the expressions used here were pilfered from ancient times. For years now we have employed "go gay" when a new pair of lovers appear on the Broadway scene. "Soandso and soandso are going gay" is the phrase. Comes this bullet from a lad who asserts it may be found in the Bible (Old Testament). The citation is Baruch VI:9, the Epistle of Jeremy, and the varse is: "And taking gold, as it were, for a virgin who loveth to go gay." Things to worry about. From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sat Dec 29 23:53:31 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:53:31 EST Subject: Phoney (Winchell, 1933) Message-ID: From Walter Winchell?s column in the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM. 12 July 1933, pg. 2, col. 3: That Woolcott says he would like to know the origin of the word "phoney." Well, no dictionary is certain, either. The first time we heard it was in 1916, long before Al Smith helped popularize "baloney." In 1916 Broadwayites would say: "That's a lotta phoney'baloney!" 21 September 1933, pg. 2, col. 3: "Dear Winchell," writes F. G. Foster of Milwaukee, "not long ago you and Alexander Woolcott wanted to know the origin of 'phoney.' The word was originally 'Forney,' the name of an Eastern manufacturer of cheap jewelry. "When I was a kid in New York and Philadelphia and those spurious gem merchants made the rounds showing a piece of junk--we always said: 'Aw, that's a Forney!' Our snide way of saying it was cheap, false and counterfeit." From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 30 00:02:33 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:02:33 EST Subject: Aviation Slang (Winchell, 1933) Message-ID: From Walter Winchell?s column in the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM. 6 June 1933, pg. 2, col. 3: Bogart Rogers, war ace and author of the screen play "The Eagle and the Hawk," forwards these bits of aviation slang: A plane is always a crate, a bus or a ship...Aerial torpedoes are pills...An officer who stays on the ground is a kee-wee...A parachute is a jump-stick or an umbrella...A battle is a show...Firing a machine gun is "singing a song." 9 June 1933, pg. 2, col. 3: _Add Slanguage._ Karl Kopetzky adds this aviation slanguage: To start the motor of a plane is to "wind her" or "give her the commerce"...To give her the gas is to "pour the soup"...You are hangar-flying or bunk-flying when you talk aviation. When you land you are "slapping it down." A plane is also a "galoopie"...You "goose" or "burp" the throttle when you open and close it quickly...A poor landing is an "arrival" and one in which you injure a wing is a "Chinese landing." If a pilot is a good pilot he's "hot" but if he's reckless "he's living on borrowed time." From markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM Sun Dec 30 00:08:00 2001 From: markodegard at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Odegard) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 18:08:00 -0600 Subject: Hollowed ground. Message-ID: Revisiting an earlier thread: On today's (29 Dec 01) ABC network evening newscast, I heard Paul Goldberger, the architecture critic of the NY Times, refer to the WTC site as 'hollowed ground'. I use the cat vowel. He used what I regard as the a-in-father vowel. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 30 00:08:33 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:08:33 EST Subject: Musician Slang (WInchell, 1933) Message-ID: From Walter Winchell?s column in the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM. 11 November 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _Add Slanguage._ Howard Snyder offers a few definitions in musician's slang, to wit: McGee means behind the times or small time...A lick is a solo interlude...Tin ear means no ear for melody or rhythm...A clinker is a sour note...Play it mean--means make it hot or very good...Ride is to "go to town"...Jam is to play it hotter than that...Get off means "start to ride"...Stock means common arrangements; nothing special...Horn is a trumpet or saxophone. An outsider who refers to a trumpet as a coronet will always draw a sneer. Likewise, a violin is always a fiddle! (See this in the old archives, it it's not destroyed. 1933 is a good date for "jam" and "lick" and the like--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 30 00:20:47 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:20:47 EST Subject: Baseball Slang (Winchell, 1933) Message-ID: From Walter Winchell?s column in the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM. 11 April 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _Baseball Slang._ A la carte--Playing the ball wirth one hand...Alibi Ike--Player who makes excuses for poor fielding or batting...Apple Orchard--Ballpark...Ash heap--A rough infield...Automatic Strike--The pitch when the count is three and nothing...Barber--A player who talks too much...Can of corn--High lazy fly...Collisions--College players...County fair--One who shows off--A grandstand player...Cousin--A pitcher who is easy to hit. 3 May 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _Add Baseball Slang._ "He's Dick Smith"--means a player who keeps to himself or one who never picks up the check..."Fancy Dan"--one who poses and puts on airs..."Duster"--a bean ball aimed at the head to keep the player from the plate..."Fishing Trip"--taking a swing at a bad ball..."Guesser" is an umpire..."He chokes in the clutch"--a player who isn't so good in a pinch..."He took a drink"--he struck out..."Hitchy-Koo--players given to fidgeting in the batter's box--nervous..."Holiday" is a double-header..."Jockey" is a player who teases or rides the other team.."Lamb" is a newcomer or a youngster..."Powerhouse"--a distance hitter..."Two O'Clock Hitter"--one who hits line drives in batting practice but pop flies in a game..."Uncle Charlie's got him"--he can't hit a curve...and "Rabbit Ears" is a player who hears everything said about him. (Gerald Cohen can check this with Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY--ed.) From Bapopik at AOL.COM Sun Dec 30 00:40:37 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:40:37 EST Subject: "Lucky Break" and more (Winchell, 1933) Message-ID: From Walter Winchell's column in the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM. 2 February 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: Melancholywood. 17 May 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _Add Slanguage._ The following is some backstage slang overheard while playing at the Paramount Theatre: "Save it"--means put out the lights..."Hit 'em with a rifle"--put them on..."Strike it"--remove scenery..."Blimp" is a camera booth..."Sink"--to synchronize..."Put a silk on"--diffuse a lamp..."Break that broad's neck!"--tilt an arc lamp...""Pep up that broad!"--make a lamp better. 23 May 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _Study in Slanguage._ A heavily saturated with Wyoming Ketchup Pete-man was doing a little chesty chatter before a group of novices in the same racket. "Say," he began, "when I was in my prime I only done big tings. Only once did I flooze it up. I was loaded with nose-paint caressing a box dat had more locks on it den Hoodeenee! But I gave it too much soup--and blew 200 Gs into a lotta confetti, an' an exit for meself tru de ceilin'--an' before I knew it--I was chinnin' meself on da moon!" Pete-man (safe-cracker)...Wyoming Ketchup (hooch)...Box (safe)...Soup (TNT)...200 Gs ($200,000)...Nose-paint (pre-war). 9 September 1933, pg. 2, col. 3: _Things I Never Knew Before._ (...) That in the old days when they wanted to trim a sucker they sold him the Brooklyn Bridge. (Winchell never knew this before?--ed.) 21 October 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: "You're nuttier than a fruitcake" has only been in nine movies this year. 26 October 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: _ORIGIN._ They were gabbing about the origin of "lucky break" again yesterday. One of us remarked that it is supposed to have come from circus slang meaning bad weather it it rained, snowed or chilled it "broke bad," etc. This argument, however, seemed more like it. One lad thought it came from the pool rooms many years ago. If a player pocketed one or more pills on the first break it was a "lucky break." 3 November 1933, pg. 2, col. 2: I see that the expression "Too, too divine!" (which has become "devoon" until I could choke) is said to have originated in Hollywood...Quiteso--after Tallulah Bankhead brought it there...But when Bankhead shieks it--she means it derisively. From lnielsen79 at EARTHLINK.NET Sun Dec 30 04:16:08 2001 From: lnielsen79 at EARTHLINK.NET (Lisa Nielsen) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:16:08 -0800 Subject: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?UmU6ICAgICAgW7GksO1dILzSv6zAzLChIMPfw7XHz7TCILv1svYg?= =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?tb+/tbvzICgxOby8wMy787D8tvcp?= Message-ID: Remove me from list Immediately ----- Original Message ----- From: ??? To: Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 12:43 PM Subject: [??] ???? ???? ?? ??? (19?????) > Carsex24 ?? ??? [????] missnude.co.kr > Carsex24 ?? ??? [????] missnude.co.kr > > > > ?? ?????? ?? > ???? 100% ????? ?? > 60??? ????? ????? > ???? ????, ????? > ???????, ?????, ????? > ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? > ??? ????? ???? ???? > ?????? ????? > 1?? ??? - 12000? > 3?? ??? - 30000? > (???????) > Carsex24? ?????? ????????. > > ???????? > > > > > > > > From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 30 05:17:34 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 00:17:34 -0500 Subject: "MOTHER FUCKER" transparent? [was: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries] In-Reply-To: <3C2B8B9E.FB8EDB7F@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: >This professor, may he rest in peace, had a doctorate in English from >the University of London. His dissertation on a minor Victorian author >was published by the author's cousin who ran a book publishing company >in Australia. His editors apparently did a good copy-editing job on the >manuscript. The text was flawless as far as I could see, but for obvious >reasons, they dared not touch the Dedication, which read: "To my mother >for her inordinate affection [to me]..." The editors probably thought, >Hey, if something had been going on between mother and son, who are we >to put in our two cents worth? > >Now, as all English experts and others (including learners beyond a >certain grade level) know, "inordinate affection/love," is a >collocational phrase that means something bad, very bad, in the contexts >in which it is used. (Questions of sexual orientation would not be >relevant). It occurs frequently in ascetical Christian religious >literature, as in the socalled "Rodriguez" (Rodrigues?) volumes. >"Inordinate," by morphology and definition, is negative in meaning >("disorderly or immoderate") and Rodriguez would be referring to >homosexual and such affections, as betwen religious who have taken the >vow of chastity; "particular friendship" is another term referring to >the same concept in the above contexts. Incestuous love is included in >the meaning of the term. > >When the phrase is applied to one's mother, I suppose the >uncollocational semi-transparent idiomatic term "mother fucker" comes to >mind. .... Now, just a moment. I'm a learner of English at a relatively high grade level, and I don't have any problem at all with that dedication as quoted. Perhaps the restriction on "inordinate love/affection" is itself restricted, perhaps to certain religious contexts with which I'm not very familiar. My quick Web search does turn up a lot of religiously-oriented material in which "inordinate" means "improper" or worse. But in the above quotation it seems perfectly innocent to me, with "inordinate" at most meaning something like "excessive" (here perhaps used for 'mild self-deprecation' as in "You are too kind", "This is more than I deserve", etc.) and possibly meaning merely "unrestrained". Had I been the editor, I would have passed it without a thought; had I (as editor) received a specific query about it, I would have said that it looked perfectly fine (although "inordinate" would not be my own first-choice word here). Here are a few other examples: Anne Bronte, "The Tenant of Wildfell Hall" (Ch. 43): <<'She [the new governess] is a very estimable, pious young person,' said he; 'you needn't be afraid. Her name is Myers, I believe; and she was recommended to me by a respectable old dowager: a lady of high repute in the religious world. I have not seen her myself, and therefore cannot give you a particular account of her person and conversation, and so forth; but, if the old lady's eulogies are correct, you will find her to possess all desirable qualifications for her position: an inordinate love of children among the rest.'>> Autobiography of Konrad Lorenz (Nobel Prize, 1973): <> Web column in "Al-Ahram Weekly On-line" (Egypt) [referring to the "mother-in-law" stereotype]: <> I think "inordinate" = "immoderate"/"unrestrained" or so in all of these and I do not think there are any sexual connotations. -- Doug Wilson From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU Sun Dec 30 14:01:42 2001 From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 09:01:42 -0500 Subject: U and Non-U In-Reply-To: <2a103329c53c.29c53c2a1033@homemail.nyu.edu> Message-ID: Does anyone have handy the precise bibliographical citation for Alan S. C. Ross's 1954 article, "U and Non-U: An Essay in Sociological Linguistics"? Fred Shapiro -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Editor Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, Yale Law School forthcoming e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK Sun Dec 30 14:17:03 2001 From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 14:17:03 -0000 Subject: U and Non-U Message-ID: as cited in the OED2: 1954 A. S. C. Ross in Neuphilologische Mitteilungen LV. 21 (title) U and non-U ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Shapiro" To: Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 2:01 PM Subject: U and Non-U > Does anyone have handy the precise bibliographical citation for Alan S. C. > Ross's 1954 article, "U and Non-U: An Essay in Sociological Linguistics"? > > Fred Shapiro > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Editor > Associate Librarian for Public Services YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS > and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press, > Yale Law School forthcoming > e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From ejohnson at BERRY.EDU Sun Dec 30 18:23:33 2001 From: ejohnson at BERRY.EDU (Ellen Johnson) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 13:23:33 -0500 Subject: Medial -/t/- (was New Britain, Conn) Message-ID: then there's my home town, ATlanta /Itlaen@/, where people are mostly oblivious that the native t-less pronunciation is stigmatized by well, you know, all those Yankees who've moved here. I suppose because the t is dropped in the place name, it is lost in the derivative Atlantan as well (n at n, variant nt at n, but n?n as in Clinton is not possible). Ellen Ellen Johnson Assistant Professor of Linguistics Dept. of English, Rhetoric, and Writing Berry College, Box 350 Mt. Berry, GA 30149 706-368-5638 http://fsweb.berry.edu/academic/hass/ejohnson/ ejohnson at berry.edu -----Original Message----- From: Alice Faber [mailto:faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU] Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 12:36 PM To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Medial -/t/- (was New Britain, Conn) Rudolph C Troike said: >This South Texan pronounces medial -/t/- in 'bottle', 'latter' as a voiced >stop (i.e. [d]), so that 'latter' and 'ladder' are homophonous, as in the >old conundrum, "The carpenter put down his ladder and saw, and then picked >up the [laed at r]. Which one did he pick up?" In British RP the -/t/- is >voiceless and aspirated. I'm not sure what Beverly meant by calling the >pronunciation of 'Clinton', 'Scranton', etc. "disputed" (I think that's >the term she used -- I can't check now). I have an unreleased [t] followed >by a syllabic nasal. Again, Rosemary Church on CNN and many news >announcers (I think even Dan Rather, when he tries) keep a tertiarily >stressed schwa in the final syllable of 'Clinton', etc., making it -[t at n]. All my notes on glottal stop for /t/ in New England are in the lab, so this is from memory. I believe that in this area, you find a fair amount of variability in /ntn/ sequences, as in Clinton*, Scranton. Clinton is a suburb of New Haven, and its pronunciation isn't remarked upon. Groton, like Clinton, is universally pronounced with a [?] for /t/, and, in both towns, "local" pronunciations are stigmatized. (Marianna Di Paolo told me that a similar phenomenon occurs with the pronunciation of Layton (Utah).) I *may* be imagining it, but I believe that the actual difference resides in the pronunciation of the syllabic [n]. The normal pronunciation is [?] followed by syllabic [n] (with no discernible vowel quality). However, one occasionally hears [?] followed by an ultra-short copy of the vowel preceding [?], followed by [n]. So what's stigmatized is [brI?In] not [brI?n]. *As I was composing this, my first thought was that, well of course Clinton doesn't have [?]; the preceding /n/ blocks the change of /t/ to [?]. Then I said it out loud: [klIn?n]. So much for introspection! Alice From carljweber at MSN.COM Sun Dec 30 21:32:29 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:32:29 -0600 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Etymological_Notes:_=22Love=22_=28semi-long=29?= Message-ID: Etymological Notes: "Love" (semi-long) Carl Jeffrey Weber LOVE We pick up with a dedication <<< "To my mother for her inordinate affection [to me]..." The editors probably thought, Hey, if something had been going on between mother and son, who are we to put in our two cents worth? >>> The pick up continues, <<< "inordinate affection/love," is a collocational phrase that means something bad, very bad, in the contexts in which it is used. (Questions of sexual orientation would not be relevant). It occurs frequently in ascetical Christian religious literature. "Inordinate," by morphology and definition, is negative in meaning >>> . I suspect something going on here like "heads you win, tails I lose". "Inordinate love" is NOT equivalent to "inordinate affection" in historical English. Pop usage be what it may. It seems "inordinate" can be a euphemism for the polite/opprobrious "bad". We use a different word today for the opprobrious bad: "Inappropriate". (And the word "inappropriate" collocates better with the word "touching".) "Inordinate/inappropriate" can each suggest "excessive" or "abusive," or "to a fault." Of note - "not being ordered or ordinary", and also, "not being apropos", are not necessarily bad. But here they are linguistically marked for bad, as when someone has an "attitude". Everybody knows you can have a good OR bad attitude, but if someone says you have one, they always mean a bad one -- like a person has a "condition". It is always a bad thing. The topic though, analyzes the language of a DEDICATION. Wouldn't this suggest a polite and courteous register of language use? <<< . Hey, if something had been going on between mother and son, who are we to put in our two cents worth? >>> Douglas Wilson: <<< Now, just a moment. I'm a learner of English at a relatively high grade level, and I don't have any problem at all with that dedication as quoted.>>> Doug says the expression "inordinate love/affection" is <<< perhaps used for 'mild self-deprecation' as in "You are too kind", "This is more than I deserve", etc.) and possibly meaning merely "unrestrained". Had I been the editor, I would have passed it without a thought; had I (as editor) received a specific query about it, I would have said that it looked perfectly fine (although "inordinate" would not be my own first-choice word here) >>> Doug then goes on to give usage data from Anne Bronte and Konrad Lorenz to show two examples of "inordinate love" as a good thing, and then gives an example of a bad meaning, "a possessive mother's inordinate love" which has the negative sense of excessive to a fault, etc. (Notwithstanding the original was "inordinate affection", not "love"), Doug says "inordinate love" = "immoderate" or "unrestrained love". It "doesn't have any sexual connotations." The register of language in the topic example accords it the register that is, among other things, polite and courteous. This seems right to me, and the Lack of Sexual Connotation School of linguistic interpretation wins over the Saturday Night Live School. The topic opened with "inordinate AFFECTION". An intermediary comment then associated "AFFECTION with LOVE", as equivalents, and next Doug gaves examples of "inordinate LOVE". ///////////////////////////// Are not "love" and "affection" inappropriately associated here? Our modern word "love" is a blend of two Old English roots. One meant "to like", the other meant "to praise". The modern word "love" is a blend of those two words, which is why you can speak of the "love" of the most trivial thing, and then of the "love" of God. It's in the first instance that "to love" means "to like" and in the second that "to love" means "to praise" (God). Now, accepted as an English word, "praise" was borrowed from the French subsequent to the Norman Conquest in 1066. In historical English usage, the "lover" was always the boy. The girl's "lover" was not so named because he "made love" to her -- "made love" today is a euphemism for either, 1., technical medical words, or 2., ones straight out of society's linguistic gutter. The language's most famous four letter word is allowed as a synonym for "make love". And then, that same four letter word is used as possibly equivalent to "rot" as a condemnative, I'll call it, as in "rotten idiot". "Love" as it comes from our basic Old English has nothing to do with sex - sex being what the boy and the girl, as expressed in the English language of today, HAVE with each other. "Love", here means, "to really really REALLY like a whole lot, and nothing more than like to the tenth power. "Praise be to God", was in Old English, "Love God!" "To love God" does not mean "to like Him a whole whole lot". One can show love (i.e., that you "like" something or somebody a whole lot) affectively, and this "affection" is externalizing behavior. This is not implied in the English word "love". "Affection" is warm and fuzzy affect, whereas "to really like, a whole lot, more than anything or anybody in the whole world," is all there is, and nothing more. But what of the word "love" as the "real special bond" the boy and girl have for each other? It seems an extension of the meaning "to mega-like". There is no special word. We must go to the Romance languages for the words of special bonding between the sexes, with a Western Valentines kind of love that is perhaps in the "mar-' roots. English has words for bonding between the sexes, like "betroth" and "wed". The "mar", though, I strongly suspect, did more than simply come through Latin for "young girl" - i.e., probably maiden (cf. Pallas Athena, Joan of Arc, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, etc.). In Mexico today they can say "All the little Maria's all over Mexico". Perhaps "mar" is same sourced in "marry" and "martial" - seen in the second millennium BC as the "oh my hero" theme, going way back on the IE Oriental side, and eventually spread with the Pax Romana But, on the Occidental side, consider the song, "What's Love Got to Do with It". It's about a female sexual availability script in which the guys immediately proceed to home plate sometime between sundown and sunrise. Presumably everybody would be externalizing behaviors of warm and fuzzy affect, affectionate "shows" of "love" - "yes darling.", or, "yea baby, I DO love you". Isn't "love" erroneously equated with "affection", and "love and affection" are both synonymized with "sex". Our language is being synonymized through guilt by association. Even makin' "whoopee" never got far beyond first base before it fell in the gutter.Too bad. The boys and girls should learn good definitions in middle school - the usage in pop culture be what it may. They hear more standard English and three syllable words on the Simpsons than they get all day in Chicago schools. Conclusion: When he says thank you for your "inordinate love" it is good with no sexual connotations in the identified register. It is not bad!!! "Inordinate affection", however, could be good, could be bad, and doesn't strictly have to do with the word "love" that developed from two Old English roots meaning "like" and "praise". From carljweber at MSN.COM Sun Dec 30 21:54:59 2001 From: carljweber at MSN.COM (carljweber) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:54:59 -0600 Subject: Etymology Notes: "Blessed" Message-ID: Etymology Notes: "Blessed" Carl Jeffrey Weber BLESSED The expression "blessed terrorism" came up in the news regarding Bin Laden's third videotape. The newscaster used the two-syllable form of the "blessed" word and put the main accent on TER-. "Bles-sed TER-or-is'm." If the accent is: "BLES-sed terroris'm," or "BLES-sed TERroris'm" makes a difference. It came off natural the way she said it. (It's the way you say "Blessed Virgin" that makes it mean blest or blessed or damned.) /////////// Lisa Wittenberg wrote (EDITED BY CJW) <<>> [Douglas Wilson points out that the adjective is EITHER way.] Here are other examples of this process, with the number of syllables unchanged: "The spilt milk." vs "The spilled milk" (spilled is one syllable). "Spilt" forefronts the fact of having been spilled, the result continuing; "Spilled" forefronts the continuing result, the act assumed and in the background. Another example of two adjectival uses made from the same past participle, with no need to add a syllable: spelt/spelled (spelled is one syllable). "A properly spelt word." vs "A properly spelled word." The voiced consonant "l" at the ends of "spill" and "spell" allows the addition of either preterit marker ("-t" or "-d") to make the distinction in meaning here pointed out. In the following, notice the (voiced) nasal giving the same phenomenon with "burnt" and "burned" -- no extra syllable needed. One meaning emphasized the act, the other the continuing result. //////////// "Blest" (one syllable) forefronts the fact of the act (of having been blessed), the result of the act continuing. "Bless-ed" (two syllables), forefronts the continuing result, the act assumed (and in the background, as having had occurred). Obviously, the way you say the phrase makes it swearing in a bad sense or swearing in a good sense. (Swear like a sailor on his way to hell or a penitent sinner at the gates of St. Peter.). The unvoiced ending of "bless", the word under discussion, requires the addition of another syllable for what Doug called the "stretched version". The same with "curst" and "curs-ed". Two syllables. Another, "proved/proven", is on a Norman root (although "prooft" is not historically uncommon). Another, from the Roman era of loan words into Britanniae before English officially started, "spent" and "expended". Others are the "gilt lily" and "the gild (or gilded) lily"; "I beg ya' darlin', on my bent knee... on bended knee." There seem to be a limited number of phonemic possibilities in basic Old English: (-lt and -ld), (-st and -sed), (-nt and -nd). The distiction in meaning is apparent between "stripe shirt" (with a lost! preterit marker) and "strip-ped bass". One has perfective and the other durative qualities. What is this phenomenon called? From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Sun Dec 30 22:33:08 2001 From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:33:08 -0500 Subject: Random House Historical Dictionary Message-ID: Given the untimely demise of the Random House Dictionary Division, does anyone know what is to become of the Historical Dictionary of American Slang project? -- Evan Morris words1 at word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com From flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Sun Dec 30 22:41:17 2001 From: flanigan at OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:41:17 -0500 Subject: Etymology Notes: "Blessed" In-Reply-To: <004401c1917c$a1cb1de0$7b351342@computer> Message-ID: Maybe "she" used two syllables, but Dan Rather (predictably) used just one when he read the same lines. At 03:54 PM 12/30/01 -0600, you wrote: >Etymology Notes: "Blessed" > >Carl Jeffrey Weber > >BLESSED > >The expression "blessed terrorism" came up in the news regarding Bin Laden's >third videotape. The newscaster used the two-syllable form of the "blessed" >word and put the main accent on TER-. "Bles-sed TER-or-is'm." If the accent >is: "BLES-sed terroris'm," or "BLES-sed TERroris'm" makes a difference. It >came off natural the way she said it. (It's the way you say "Blessed Virgin" >that makes it mean blest or blessed or damned.) > >/////////// > >Lisa Wittenberg wrote >(EDITED BY CJW) > > ><<Blessed as an adjective is /blEs ed/ > >Are there other examples of this process? > >Perhaps, "blest" is OE spelling, but the pronunciation would persist with >the regular preterit spelling. Can anyone comment on the adjective >pronunciation? Is it an emphatic usage started in the church (Blessed >Virgin) that has become accepted? or is there another story here? >>> > >[Douglas Wilson points out that the adjective is EITHER way.] > >Here are other examples of this process, with the number of syllables >unchanged: > >"The spilt milk." vs "The spilled milk" (spilled is one syllable). > >"Spilt" forefronts the fact of having been spilled, the result continuing; > >"Spilled" forefronts the continuing result, the act assumed and in the >background. > > >Another example of two adjectival uses made from the same past participle, >with no need to add a syllable: spelt/spelled (spelled is one syllable). "A >properly spelt word." vs "A properly spelled word." > >The voiced consonant "l" at the ends of "spill" and "spell" allows the >addition of either preterit marker ("-t" or "-d") to make the distinction in >meaning here pointed out. In the following, notice the (voiced) nasal giving >the same phenomenon with "burnt" and "burned" -- no extra syllable needed. >One meaning emphasized the act, the other the continuing result. > >//////////// > >"Blest" (one syllable) forefronts the fact of the act (of having been >blessed), the result of the act continuing. > >"Bless-ed" (two syllables), forefronts the continuing result, the act >assumed (and in the background, as having had occurred). Obviously, the way >you say the phrase makes it swearing in a bad sense or swearing in a good >sense. (Swear like a sailor on his way to hell or a penitent sinner at the >gates of St. Peter.). > >The unvoiced ending of "bless", the word under discussion, requires the >addition of another syllable for what Doug called the "stretched version". >The same with "curst" and "curs-ed". Two syllables. > >Another, "proved/proven", is on a Norman root (although "prooft" is not >historically uncommon). Another, from the Roman era of loan words into >Britanniae before English officially started, "spent" and "expended". > >Others are the "gilt lily" and "the gild (or gilded) lily"; "I beg ya' >darlin', on my bent knee... on bended knee." > >There seem to be a limited number of phonemic possibilities in basic Old >English: (-lt and -ld), (-st and -sed), (-nt and -nd). The distiction in >meaning is apparent between "stripe shirt" (with a lost! preterit marker) >and "strip-ped bass". One has perfective and the other durative qualities. >What is this phenomenon called? _____________________________________________ Beverly Olson Flanigan Department of Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 Ph.: (740) 593-4568 Fax: (740) 593-2967 http://www.cats.ohiou.edu/linguistics/dept/flanigan.htm From douglas at NB.NET Sun Dec 30 22:55:09 2001 From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:55:09 -0500 Subject: "MOTHER FUCKER" transparent? [was: Percentage point--missed word in dictionaries] In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011229175045.00ab1200@nb.net> Message-ID: It has been suggested that "love" might be a little different from "affection". In the context of the book dedication in question, I believe these words are virtually synonymous. Still, here are a few examples with "inordinate affection", all without any carnal implications IMHO: "The Bishop and His Cats", in "The New-England Magazine" (1834): <> "The Blackfeet Indians", in "Appletons' Journal" (1877): <> Web discussion of Protestant versus Catholic 'extremisms': <> -- Doug Wilson From Ittaob at AOL.COM Mon Dec 31 01:16:14 2001 From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Ittaob at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:16:14 EST Subject: Hollowed ground. Message-ID: When I was attending Catholic grade school in Queens, NY in the 1950s, the Lord's Prayer began for us "Our Father, who art in heaven, hollowed be thy name..." Steve Boatti From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU Mon Dec 31 09:25:05 2001 From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 02:25:05 -0700 Subject: Spilt/spilled milk Message-ID: In "Don't cry over spilt/spilled milk", either pronunciation is possible for me, with no differentiation in meaning. My impression is that the "spilt" form is almost entirely British, its survival in American being vestigial. The alternation is not, I think, possible with all words even in British English. One example which comes to mind is "I have learnt my lesson" vs "He is a *learnt/learn-ed man", where the two past participles have gone separate ways. Conversely, at least in US English, one may have a burnt/burned match (though I suspect "burnt" is obsolescing), but not a *burn-ed match. Rudy From sago8572 at NETSGO.COM Mon Dec 31 11:39:37 2001 From: sago8572 at NETSGO.COM (ȼö) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 20:39:37 +0900 Subject: ƴ 𸣴Ŀ õ![] Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU Mon Dec 31 12:17:58 2001 From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 07:17:58 -0500 Subject: Hollowed ground. In-Reply-To: <126.96de5ed.2961165e@aol.com> Message-ID: Are we having some phonetic realization of phoneme problem in the hallowed-hollowed discussion? Vowels before /r/ are notoriously retracted (F2) and the phonetic realization of an /ae/ before an /l/ could clearly be heard as a phonetic [a] (or even farther back) and misinterpreted as an example of phoneic /a/ rather than /ae/. Of course, it's difficult to tell when such phonetically cued "misinterpretations" involve phonemic reclassification, but most of us reckon that historical linguistics is a psycholinguistic phenomenon as well. dInIs >When I was attending Catholic grade school in Queens, NY in the 1950s, the >Lord's Prayer began for us "Our Father, who art in heaven, hollowed be thy >name..." > >Steve Boatti -- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston at pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM Mon Dec 31 17:53:36 2001 From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:53:36 EST Subject: Spilt/spilled milk Message-ID: In a message dated 12/31/2001 4:29:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU writes: > One example which comes to mind is "I have learnt my > lesson" vs "He is a *learnt/learn-ed man", where the two past participles > have gone separate ways. Conversely, at least in US English, one may have > a burnt/burned match (though I suspect "burnt" is obsolescing), but not > a *burn-ed match. I can't help thinking of modern poetry, in which the tendency is not to have the verse scan. In the 19th century, when most verse did scan, there was a convention that the final "-ed" could always be split off into a syllable by itself if necessary for the scansion. For example, "Casey at the Bat" (I'm quoting from memory) "But Flynn preceded Casey, and likewise so did Blake And the former was a puddin', and the latter was a fake..." "But Flynn let drive a single, to the wonderment of all And the much despis-ed Blakely tore the cover off the ball So when the dust had settled and they saw what had occurred There was Blakely safe on second, and Flynn a-hugging third" Not only was "despised" given three syllables to make the line scan, but "hugging" also acquired an extra syllable and in the previous stanza the unlov-ed Mr. Blakely lost a syllable off his name. Conclusion: with the long-standing current fashion for non-scanning poetry, modern-day readers and listeners have forgotten that the "-ed" used to, sometimes, be pronounced when a poet decided it be necessary, and hence simply do not expect -ed to ever be a separate syllable. - Jim Landau From Bapopik at AOL.COM Mon Dec 31 20:02:29 2001 From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 15:02:29 EST Subject: Cuban Cocktails and much more (long!) Message-ID: Happy new year and greetings from Havana, Cuba. I fly home tomorrow, January 1st. CUBA SI--"Cuba Yes!" A popular slogan. !VIVA LA REVOLUTION! 1959-2002 43 ANOS DE VICTORIAS--A sign outside the Hotel Nacional. It's sad. We should be friends. The Cuban people themselves have been friendly to Americans. BOTELLA--To ride or hitch-hike. JINETERA--Prostitutes. MARICON--A gay person. TORTILLERA--A lesbian. The tour guide smacked/clapped his hands to show that two lesbians are like two tortillas. (FWIW: There are only two Mexican restaurants here. The Mexican influence is surprisingly small--ed.) GRANDMOTHER'S SOUP--Served at the popular El Aljibe restaurant (founded 1946) that I ate at last night. Grandma didn't give me the recipe. CREOLE MOJITO--The suggested drink at the El Aljibe. SLOPPY JOE'S--It's too bad that it went bust in the 1940s, or it would still be here. There's no trace of the famous bar in today's Havana. I was told that it was located near my hotel. FLORIDITA--The place is still around, near my hotel and at the end of the main drag. It claims to be the home of the daiquiri. SANDWICH CRIOLLO--Their name for the Cuban sandwich/hero/sub or what have you. BAKERY ITEMS (illustrated outside a bakery in Havana): PAN FRANCES MANZANITA CANGREJITO LUNCH ROSA DULCE ROLLY TORCIDA PULMAN CARACOL TARTALETA CUNARTA KAKE From the HAVANA EVENING TELEGRAM, 28 January 1933, pg, 1, col. 7 ad: TRY CUBA-LIBRE Bottled in Splits Ironbeer mixed with Bacardi Rum Peppy and Invigorating These cocktails are served at the HOTEL TELEGRAFO (right next to my Golden Tulip Hotel at the Central Park): LIMONADA CLARETE PRESIDENTE MARTINI SECO CHARLES CHAPLIN COMPARI ORANGE SANGRIA CUBA LIBRE HABANA ESPECIAL DAIQUIRI FRAPPE CUBATA MOJITO SCREW DRIVER CUBANITO MARGARITA RON COLLINS PINA COLADA BRANDY ALEXANDER DAIQUIRI PAPA HEMINGWAY CAIPIRINHA (When oh when will OED add this?--ed.) BLACK RUSSIAN (Probably a 10-year OED wait--ed.) WHITE RUSSIAN VOLDKA (sic) MARTINI VOLDKA TONIC NON-ALCOHOLIC: SAN FRANCISCO (Appears to be the most popular "mocktail" here--ed.) ENSALADA DE FRUTAS The EL BAR at the HOTEL NACIONAL DE CUBA was kind enough to give me its drink menu: COCTELES CLASICOS CUBANOS: COCTEL NACIONAL--($3.50 U.S.) rum, apricot brandy and pineapple juice MOJITO--rum, sugar, lemon juice and soda DAIQUIRI--sugar, lemon juice and rum CUBA BELLA--grenadine, mint, lemon juice, silver dry rum and old rum BELLO MONTE--grenadine, cacao, sugar, lemon juice, rum and mint CUBANITO--lemon juice, salt, tabasco, tomato juice and rum HAVANA SPECIAL--rum, marraschino and pineapple juice PRESIDENTE--vermouth, curacao and rum MULATA--sugar, lemon juice, cacao and old rum CUBA LIBRE--rum and coke CENTENARIO--lemon juice, grenadine, triple sec, coffee liquor silver dry rum and old rum COCTELES INTERNACIONALES: PINA COLADA MARTINI NEGRONI MARGARITA SCREW DRIVER AMERICANO MANHATTAN CAIPIRINHA COCTELERIA ESPECIAL: AMARETTO ROSSO--jugo de naranja, ron 3 anos, amaretto, ron 7 anos COCTEL DEL SIGLO--jugo de naranja, mandarinetto, ron 3 anos, angostura COCTEL 70 ANOS--jugo de pina, ginebra, ron silver dry, curacao rojo SAMURAI--jugo de melocoton, jugo de naranja, Grand Marnier, Silver Dry COCTEL 1930--ron 3 anos, ginebra, jugo de limon, curacao azul, triple sec IL MIO RICETTARIO DI COCKTAIL CUBANI Ramon Pedreira Rodriguez Editorial Arte y Literature, Havana 87 pages, paperback, $4 1998 Bought at the Hotel Nacional gift shop, but not seen elsewhere. Only in Spanish. It's a little long for this post so I'll discuss the contents at another time, or if anyone is curious. From gcohen at UMR.EDU Mon Dec 31 21:52:16 2001 From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 15:52:16 -0600 Subject: TAD = Thomas Aloysius Dorgan (cartoonist) Message-ID: TAD was the way cartoonist Thomas Aloysius Dorgan signed his works. And note Jonathan Lighter's introduction to his _Historical Dictionary of American Slang_, in which he comments about Leonard Zwilling's study of TAD: "Zwilling, Leonard. _A TAD Lexicon_, in _Etymology and Linguistic Principles III, edited by Gerald Cohen, Rolla, Mo: Gerald Cohen 1993. An inclusive glossary of the innovative slang and nonce vocabulary found in the work of Thomas A. Dorgan ('TAD') (1877-1929), a nationally syndicated cartoonist of the early twentieth century whose comic art helped popularize a number of slang expressions, including 'malarkey,' 'hard-boiled,' and 'kibitzer.' Informative introductory chapters, extensive dated citations from Dorgan's work and cross references to the OED and other standard sources." TAD, by the way, is still frequently credited with coining "hot dog" via his supposed Polo Grounds "hot dog" cartoon of the early 1900s. That cartoon never existed and has therefore never been located; and "hot dog" was in use already in college slang of the mid-1890s, well before TAD's 1904 arrival in NYC from San Francisco. I was honored to play a role in disseminating Zwilling's work on TAD. Also, I am grateful to Dennis for asking about the acronym and thereby giving me the opportunity to talk about the subject. --Gerald Cohen On 12/29/01, Dennis R. Preston wrote: >Does this mean a little bitty ole one? > >dInIs (citing the only TAD he knows, although he reckons he'll be >blasted for this ignorance of acronyms; I wish there was a Barhardt >American Dictionary) > > > Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG (1998) has "19C, US" >>and "? broken English 'spikka da English.'" What cites does he have??--ed.) >>> >> >>To date, other than this, a TAD one for 1908 (thanks to L. Zwilling). >> >>JG > >-- >Dennis R. Preston From george.thompson at NYU.EDU Mon Dec 31 22:19:57 2001 From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:19:57 -0500 Subject: binky Message-ID: This is interesting. I also see that if I were not a paper-fixated old codger who still looks words up in dictionaries, I could have learned this through Google. However, now I wonder whether there was a pre-existing word "binky". If not, why would such a word be coined as a trademark for a pacifier? The reason for coining "playtex" as a trademark for a girdle or "kleenex" for a tissue nose-wipe are understandable. But since "binky" doesn't show up in dictionaries, I'm not likely to ever know whether the word came before the trademark. My reason for thinking that it may have is that my wife has told me that she only recalls hearing her mother use the word binky once, and that only a few years ago, when the two were looking at old family photos. A photo of a baby with a pacifier lead the mother-in-law to say, "that's me with my binky". This suggests that "binky" was perhaps her family's word for pacifier, ca. 1905, since it wasn't the old one's usual word. We don't remember her using any distinctive word for pacifier when her grandchildren were infants. She and her sisters and about everyone else from that generation are now dead. GAT George A. Thompson Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Baker, John" Date: Saturday, December 29, 2001 4:39 pm Subject: Re: binky > My wife, from eastern Massachusetts, has this, and I was initially mystified. It turns out that Binky is a registered trademark for pacifiers, currently owned, I believe, by Playtex Products, and apparently used since 1935. > > John Baker > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: George Thompson [SMTP:george.t hompson at NY U.EDU] > > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 12:33 PM > > To: ADS-L at LIST SERV.UGA.E DU > > Subject: binky > > > > My wife calls my attention to Bill Gallo's cartoon in the Daily > News of > > December 23, 2001, p. 82. In the lower right corner of the > drawing is > > a diapered baby, with a pacifier in its mouth. There is a label > > reading "binky, the ol' reliable" and an arrow pointing to the > pacifier.> > > This caught my wife's attention because her mother had called > > pacifiers "binkies". I've never heard the word and don't find it in > > the usual dictionaries. DARE has (1) "any little mechanical > > contrivance" from 1912 and (2) as the answer to the question "the > part> of the body that you sit on", 1968. > > > > The lamented mother-in-law was born in southwestern Penn. in > about 1904 > > to a family with roots there of several generations, and she lived > > there all of her life. I know that Bill Gallo is a New Yorker old > > enough to have been in the marines during WWII, and his last name > > suggests to me that he is not Scots Presbyterian. > > > > GAT > > > > George A. Thompson > > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", > Northwestern> Univ. Pr., 1998. > > > > > > ************ ************ ************ ******* > > * This email has been scanned for viruses * > > * Stradley Ronon Stevens & Young, LLP * > > ************ ************ ************ ******* > > > From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU Mon Dec 31 09:26:07 2001 From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:26:07 +0800 Subject: FW: New Britain, Connecticut In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 6:12 PM -0500 12/27/01, Frank Abate wrote: >What Alice refers to below is true in native central CT dialect. Words >affected include mountain, mitten, and the like, with (expected) medial >flapped-t being realized as a glottal stop, when followed by syllabic n. >These speakers do not have the glottal stop in words such as bottle, as >characteristic of NYC dialects. I do not know of other clear markers to >this dialect. It is an r-ful dialect, as are most to the west of the >Connecticut River, within the state. > >This from personal observation (over about 20 years as a resident of the >area) by a lexicographer, not formally trained in phonetics. > >larry (horn), further comments? > >Frank Abate > Well, yes, since you asked (sorry to reply before reading the other messages in the thread, but I'm just back from a family Christmas trip and getting ready for the LSA/ADS so my online time is limited)-- The speech pattern Frank describes characterizes my daughter (now 17) but not my son (19), even though they both grew up in metro New Haven. Maybe it has to do with the friends they've each hung out with, but there it is. (Actually I'm not sure my daughter ALWAYS has [?] for the medial /t/ in "mitten" (as you predict, never in "bottle"); I may just be noticing it when she does, but I'm pretty sure nobody else in the family has it, not even the cats.) larry From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM Mon Dec 31 22:57:11 2001 From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (Paul M. Johnson) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:57:11 -0600 Subject: Cuban Cocktails and much more (long!) Message-ID: Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote: > > Happy new year and greetings from Havana, Cuba. (snip) Go to 8th st in Miami and have a "Little Lie" which is the anti-castro version of a Cuba Libre From db.list at PMPKN.NET Mon Dec 31 16:01:23 2001 From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 09:01:23 -0700 Subject: FW: New Britain, Connecticut Message-ID: From: Beverly Flanigan > The "expected" medial consonant here would not be the > flapped-t, which is heard in 'butter', 'fatter', 'bottle', > etc. in "ordinary" American English. The glottal stop IS > common in 'mountain' and 'mitten', and not just in CT; but > the alternate form is [t], as in NYC, if I'm not mistaken. > But does NYC use [t] in 'bottle'? Surely not the glottal > stop, which is used in this word in much Brit. Eng. but > not in Am. Eng., as far as I know. > The words I cite in class as "disputed" in Am. Eng. are > generally proper names, like Clinton, Scranton, Hinton, > etc., where spelling pronunciation tends to produce [t] > medially (foreign reporters routinely pronounce the first > ex. with [t], RP style). New Britain would fall under this > same rubric. It doesn't seem to me that 'mountain' and > 'mitten' and button' etc. are regionally differentiated > outside of NYC/NJ--but I'm open to disputation. I find it rather interesting that the (mainly northern and central) Utahns i've talked to about this are quite painfully aware of their use of a glottal stop in words like mountain, Clinton, Scranton, &c. (I don't include mitten in the list--that's pronounced here with a glottal stop, but the social awareness appears only to extend to morphemes that might underlyingly end with a /n.t at n/ sequence.) The interesting thing is that i say people here are *painfully* aware of that pronunciation on purpose--there tends to be a belief that it's a regionalism, and a particularly low-status regionalism to boot. Of course, i my Southern Maryland self use a glottal stop in those words, and i know a glottal stop is used gobs of other places, but Utahns tend to be convinced that nobody else would ever do something quite so horrid. There's just a *little* bit of linguistic insecurity out here, you see... :-/ David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed. From bivyjr at DELLEPRO.COM Sat Dec 22 05:41:08 2001 From: bivyjr at DELLEPRO.COM (Billy Ivy) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 00:41:08 -0500 Subject: Request for texts/articles of authentic Appalachian/other American Dialect. Message-ID: I am currently conducting a research on non-standard American English expressions, and particularly on sentences reflecting the following construction: modal + have + past tense (instead of past participle) Example: "I should have DID it sooner!" This is the type of phrase used by a family originally from the Boone, NC area. Hence my questions: 1) Does this particular verbal structure reflect an authentic part of the Appalachian speech? 2) Where could I find authentic material (spoken or written) displaying that type of expression? Thank you for your help. Lydie leji71 at hotmail.com