From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  1 00:18:42 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:18:42 EST
Subject: Pinto Beans (1908)
Message-ID: <SAT.30.NOV.2002.191842.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

November, 1908
Bulletin 260

CORNELL UNIVERSITY
AGRICULTURAL EXPERIMENT STATION OF
THE COLLEGE OF AGRICULTURE
Department of Horticulture

_AMERICAN VARIETIES OF BEANS_
By C. D. JARVIS

ITHACA, N. Y.
PUBLISHED BY THE UNIVERSITY


Pg. 206:
         MEXICAN PINTO
   _Comparison._--This field variety is very similar to White Marrow.  Ecept
for being much later in season and somewhat darker in color of foliage, the
plant characteristics are the same.  The pods are slightly longer, narrower,
more depressed between beans, duller and darker green in color.  About the
same in vigor, hardiness and productiveness as White Marrow and not superior
to that variety in any respect.  It is largely grown in Colorado and
California.  Too late to be of value in this section of the country.
Pg. 207:
   _Synonyms._--Early Mohawk, Early Mohawk Six Weeks, Early Brown Mohawk,
Early Brown Six Weeks, Veitche's Early Favorite, Veitche's Progress Dwarf
French, North Star, Long Red Speckled Kidney, Purple Speckled Date, Red
Speckled Lady.
   _Confusing name._--French Mohawk is different from Mohawk.
   _History._--Catalogued by J. M. Thorburn & Co., as early as 1825.
   _Description._--Plant strictly dwarf, 14 to 18 inches high, very erect,
moderately compact, vigorous, very hardy, early, moderately productive.
Branches green.  Leaflets large, broad, crumpled, very rough, dark green.
Flowers light pink.  Snap pods large, variable, 5 1/2 to 6 1/3 inches long,
stout, very straight, flat, straight clean-cut point of medium length, five
to six-seeded, dark grenn, stringy, tough, coarse-grained, of poor quality,
attractive.  Dry seeds (1.6 X .75 X .6 cm.) oblong, broadly rounded ends,
subcircular in cross section, irregularly marked with fawn and reddish brown,
the latter predominating.
   _Comparison._--A well-known sort.  Peculiar for its tall, stiff habit of
growth and for its extreme hardiness.  It will withstand light frosts without
injury and is very resistant to disease.  The pods are more like Yellow Six
Weeks than any other, but are undoubtedly straighter, flatter, with a shorter
point and darker in color.  Owing to its unproductiveness the variety is
quickly passing out of use.  Plate I, fig.  _d_4; VII, fig. _e_7; XIII, fig.
4.


(This book was off-site.  My 2 p.m. bus from Philadelphia arrived in New York
80 minutes late, but I still got to the NYPL ten minutes before the 5:45 p.m.
closing...Any other bean varieties DARE or other people want me to check
on?...I'll look for any 1825 J. M. Thorburn & Co. catalogue...Quickly passing
out of use?  So why does even my local White Castle offer "pintos and beans"
as a side dish?--ed.)


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sun Dec  1 00:43:41 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:43:41 -0500
Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0211301741500.77512254-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.30.NOV.2002.194341.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 30 Nov 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote to Beverly Flanigan:

#"<<intermediate>> inverted script a"?
#
#As I read your post, it looks to me as if you are saying that "open /o/"
#-- by which I understand the IPA turned-c, a low-mid back rounded vowel
#-- is lower than "inverted script a" -- low back rounded vowel. And
#that's backwards. Or I've forgotten all the IPA I ever knew. And that's
#scary.
#
#Am I misunderstanding your post?

Grrrumph. I certainly was. My apologies to Bev and to the list. I'll
blame it on writing before supper. If I'd read the whole thing together
I'd've realized that Bev said exactly what she meant, and neither of us
was forgetting the IPA. <turned script a> IS reasonably "intermediate"
between <turned c> and <script a>, having the openness of the latter and
the lip formation of the former. I was miscuing off her phrase "full
/open o/", mis-taking "full" to mean "at an extreme of a range" (i.e.,
openness).

-- Mark A. Mandel


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  1 01:17:05 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:17:05 EST
Subject: Girl Scout Cookies (1932)
Message-ID: <SAT.30.NOV.2002.201705.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GIRL SCOUT COOKIES

   I walked by this new sign, at Arch Street near Broad Street in
Philadelphia:

      GIRL SCOUT COOKIES
   On November 11, 1932, Girls Scouts baked & sold cookies for the first time
in the windows of the Philadelphia Gas & Electric Co. here.  This endeavor
soon became a Philadelphia tradition.  In 1936 the Girl Scouts of the U. S.
A. adopted the annual cookie sale as a national program.

Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission 2001

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MISC.

NEXT L.O.C . (WASHINGTON D.C.) TRIP--I'm thinking of going back on Monday.
I'll have 8:30 a.m.-9:30 p.m. to do a lot of stuff.  I'll look for "I'm from
Missouri" in both the ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS and in the COLORADO SPRINGS GAZETTE
of 1897.  I have access to the WASHINGTON POST if anyone needs that.

EFFETENIK--Used by Michael Wolff in NEW YORK magazine.  I also saw it in the
NEW YORK POST a day or so ago.

PINTOS AND BEANS--From my last post.  I meant that White Castle offers "pinto
beans and rice."

EDIFICE COMPLEX--Mentioned in connection with NY Governor Nelson
Rockefeller's Albany government buildings in this Sunday's William Safire
column.  My work shows that the term pre-dates this.  As usual (and this is
happening nearly every week now), my work is not mentioned.

THE BACHELOR & AUDREY MUNSON--I filled out an online application for the ABC
show THE BACHELOR, but will probably never be considered.  My Audrey Munson
work inspired me in a way.  I found more information about her in the
California newspaper index and in the Washington Post online ("Former Model
Cursed by Her Great Beauty; Audrey Munson, Whose Divine Form Brought Her Fame
and Fortune, Is Now a Pitiful Figure, Impoverished, Jobless and Driven to
Seclusion by Shattered Nerves," 10-24-1926, pg. SM3).  There were San
Francisco articles about her engagement to a "Marquis Dinelli," and then her
famous search for a perfect man.  Her story would be unknown until 1996, when
she was rediscovered in the NEW YORK TIMES by Barry "Popick."


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  1 01:48:12 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:48:12 EST
Subject: I'm From Missouri (2 May 1897); Hoggie (19 March 1944)
Message-ID: <SAT.30.NOV.2002.204812.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/30/2002 12:06:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET writes:

> are there instances of words 'infiltrating' another language, then
>  eventually being spat back out, but now with a different (or additional)
>  meaning?

Mario Pei, in _The Story of Language_ (I do not have a copy handy) tells of a
Germanic word, "palla" or something like that, which entered Latin from some
early form of German,  then returned to a Germanic language (English) in the
form "Pall Mall", and eventually


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  1 07:00:50 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 02:00:50 EST
Subject: "Smart Alec" in NY TIMES ignores Cohen; Newish Jewish
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.020050.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"SMART ALEC" IN NEW YORK TIMES

   From Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG:

_smart alec/aleck_ n. (mid 19C+)(orig. US) an unpleasantly conceited, smug
person (cf. ALEC; CLEVER DICK). (proper name _Alec_ Hoag, a celebrated New
York City thief of 1840s, who, with his wife Melinda and his accomplice
French Jack, specialized in the PANEL GAME; for a detailed account of Hoag
and his carrer, _see_ Cohen (1985)).


   Gerald Cohen wrote about this in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY.  "Smart alec" is
discussed in the FYI section of Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES, but Cohen gets no
credit!  BREWER'S is cited, but Adrian Room--who edited the new edition of
BREWER'S--is likely to have relied on Gerald Cohen's work.  From FYI in the
CITY section of today's NEW YORK TIMES:

'Smart' Alec's Cons

Q. Is it true that the term "smart alec" was coined in New York?

A. Yes. According to Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (HarperCollins,
2000), "Smart Alec" was a real person, Alec Hoag, who lived in New York in
the mid-19th century, although his noted intelligence was mostly focused on
breaking the law.

Hoag was a well-known thief, pimp and confidence man who made his scores in
New York in the 1840's.

Along with his wife, Melinda, and an accomplice known as French Jack, he
operated a con called "The Panel Game" in which a prostitute lured a customer
to a room. An accomplice would then create a commotion outside the room,
prompting the mark to block the door with a table or chair. Under the
illusion of safety, the victim would fall asleep, at which point Hoag would
sneak in the room through sliding panels on the wall and would relieve the
sleeping mark of his remaining money and valuables.

Hoag generated a reputation for the ability to escape detection from both his
victims and the authorities, earning him the nickname Smart Alec. The term
was eventually applied to any conceited know-it-all.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
NEWISH JEWISH

   I saw "Newish Jewish" used to describe the cuisine for these eight crazy
nights.  There aren't many Google hits for it, but it's worth recording and
keeping  track of.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Dec  1 12:53:08 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 07:53:08 -0500
Subject: "Smart Alec" in NY TIMES ignores Cohen; Newish Jewish
In-Reply-To: <1a8.cd51e1a.2b1b0da2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.075308.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 1 Dec 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    Gerald Cohen wrote about this in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY.  "Smart alec" is
> discussed in the FYI section of Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES, but Cohen gets no
> credit!  BREWER'S is cited, but Adrian Room--who edited the new edition of
> BREWER'S--is likely to have relied on Gerald Cohen's work.  From FYI in the
> CITY section of today's NEW YORK TIMES:

Barry, what exactly is the circulation of Comments on Etymology, such that
every reporter is expected to have read and remembered every article in
it?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sun Dec  1 14:02:36 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:02:36 -0500
Subject: Journalist's Query: "Like"
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.090236.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Anyone want to field this?

> De: "Meadows, Susannah" <Susannah.Meadows at Newsweek.com>
> Date: Fri 29 Nov 2002  17:00:55 America/New_York

> Hello, I'm a reporter and I'm working on a piece about the usage of
> the word "like." I was hoping I could speak to someone at the American
> Dialect Society about the article. My number is 212-445-5412. thanks
> for your help,
>
> Susannah Meadows
>
> ______________
> Susannah Meadows
> General Editor
> 212-445-5412
>
> Newsweek
> 251 W. 57th St. | New York, NY | 10019


From patty at CRUZIO.COM  Sun Dec  1 16:36:56 2002
From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 08:36:56 -0800
Subject: LA Times story about infiltration of English words in the
 Japanese language
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021130141013.01e385c8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.083656.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Great reply Beverly!

Patty


At 02:19 PM 11/30/02 -0500, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>This has happened since the beginning of language and the migration and
>intermingling of language speakers!  The process isn't as sneaky as
>'infiltrating' makes it sound; it's called "borrowing," and once the new
>words have settled into the borrowing language, they're called "loan
>words," that is, until they become so familiar that most people no longer
>realize they came from somewhere else.  The perceived "threat" is just
>that--a groundless fear that no one can do anything about anyway.  English
>is probably the greatest borrower of them all; get hold of a history of the
>English language if you can!
>
>At 09:04 AM 11/30/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>are there instances of words 'infiltrating' another language, then
>>eventually being spat back out, but now with a different (or additional)
>>meaning?
>>
>>cheers - Vida.
>>
>>============
>>
>>TOKYO -- They slide under doors, through windows and past airport
>>immigration unnoticed. The Internet is a veritable breeding ground, as are
>>locker rooms and fashion runways. Seemingly harmless in small doses, their
>>wholesale import now threatens Japan's very identity, say critics.
>>
>>A new computer virus? An insidious North Korean spy plot or some new breed
>>of walking catfish? For many Japanese, the biggest invasion fear is the
>>flood of foreign words infecting their vocabulary, with English heading the
>>charge.
>>
>>http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-fg-invade30nov30001429,0,6
>>78427.story?coll=la%


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Dec  1 16:55:01 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 11:55:01 -0500
Subject: Origin of Word "Underdog"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0212010749200.4876-100000@minerva>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.115501.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The word "underdog" is said to have originated in a 19th-century song or
poem by David Barker ("The Under-Dog in the Fight").  Can anyone supply
any information about when this Barker text was first published, and
whether it was a song or a poem?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Dec  1 18:43:58 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 12:43:58 -0600
Subject: "Smart Alec" in NY TIMES ignores Cohen
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.124358.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   First, my thanks to Barry for mentioning my work on Smart Aleck. I
compiled considerable 1840's newspaper material on Aleck Hoag as
plausibly being the original smart Alec; but conclusive proof has
thus far been elusive. Writing Q.E.D. would therefore be premature.

    The account in the NY Times misses the smart Alecky nature of Aleck Hoag.
It wasn't simply that he was a celebrated thief but that with some
too-clever-by-half methods he tried to welch on his graft commitments
to the NYC police. Melinda would entice a stranger to NYC into a dark
street where she would embrace him, pickpocket his valuables, and
then hold them in her extended arms behind the back of the victim.
Hoag would pass by, take the stolen objects and later split the
proceeds with Melinda and the police.
The police provided Melinda and Alec protection in case a victim
filed a robbery complaint (The police would get back the stolen
item(s), slip them into the victim's clothing, and ask the victim to
check his pockets once more.)
Meanwhile, Melinda, having stolen the valuables from the victim's pockets,
would find a way to shake him off.

      Everything was going swimmingly until Aleck Hoag, tired of
splitting his hard-won gains with the police, decided to operate
without them.  He told Melinda to take her victims to a cemetery and
drop the stolen objects over the wall; Alec would be lying on the
other side waiting to receive them.

     The police soon discovered this tactic, and Aleck and Melinda
were forced to return to their former method of robbery and splitting
the proceeds with the police. But Alec was still dissatisfied and
went over to the panel game (two adjacent apartments are rented; a
panel door is secretly built to connect the two; Melinda gets victim
to lay his clothes neatly  on a chair near the panel door; she gets
into bed with the victim, draws the bed curtain, and during the
sexual excitement she gives a cough; Aleck enters, steals the
valuables, leaves quickly, goes to the front door of Melinda's
apartment, gives a furious knock, Melinda says "My God, it's my
husband!", victim slips on his clothes and leaves in great
haste--presumably via a window.)

      But Aleck no longer had the protection of the police, and it was
only a matter of time before a victim complained to the police; and
the apartment's location was of course known to the victim.

     Melinda and Alec were arrested. Melinda was promptly sentenced,
but legal proceedings against Aleck dragged on for some time, until
his resources were exhausted; then he was sentenced to prison.

     My guess in all this is that it was the NYC police who coined the
term "Smart Alec." He had dishonestly tried to cut the police out of
the spoils, and the police were no doubt delighted by Aleck's
subsequent troubles.
  The message of the police to other would-be shirkers was (as I
suppose): Don't be like Smart Aleck, who came to grief by being too
smart by half; honor your graft commitments or you too will come to
grief.

****

    Now to two bibliographical details:

1) Barry is correct that my work on "Smart Aleck" appeared in
_Comments on Etymology_ (March 1, 1977)--a series of working papers.
But it was later published formally: "Origin of _Smart Aleck," in my
_Studies in Slang_, part 1,
( = Forum Anglicum, vol. 14, part 1). Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang Verlag.
1985, pp.85-105.

2) In reply to Fred's question, _Comments on Etymology_ has a
subscription list of about 75. The number is small but includes
lexicographers and various leading scholars (plus many educated
laymen).  Fred is correct in forgiving the NY Times reporters for not
being familiar with Comments on Etymology. Btw, one reason the
subscription number is low is that I've never aggressively publicized
the publication. I'm happy to share the material with anyone
interested, but an increased subscription list would entail both
increased expense and work (To keep the subscription price
reasonable, Com. on Et. is published below its actual
printing/mailing costs.)

Gerald Cohen

P.S.  Alan Metcalf has urged me to prepare an index of Comments on
Etymology. I should really do this plus an index of my formally
published material.  The only thing delaying these projects is time
(in short supply).




>At 7:53 AM -0500 12/1/02, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>On Sun, 1 Dec 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>>     Gerald Cohen wrote about this in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY.  "Smart alec" is
>>  discussed in the FYI section of Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES, but Cohen gets no
>>  credit!  BREWER'S is cited, but Adrian Room--who edited the new edition of
>>  BREWER'S--is likely to have relied on Gerald Cohen's work.  From FYI in the
>>  CITY section of today's NEW YORK TIMES:
>
>Barry, what exactly is the circulation of Comments on Etymology, such that
>every reporter is expected to have read and remembered every article in
>it?
>
>Fred Shapiro
>

At 2:00 AM -0500 12/1/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>"SMART ALEC" IN NEW YORK TIMES
>
>    From Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG:
>
>_smart alec/aleck_ n. (mid 19C+)(orig. US) an unpleasantly conceited, smug
>person (cf. ALEC; CLEVER DICK). (proper name _Alec_ Hoag, a celebrated New
>York City thief of 1840s, who, with his wife Melinda and his accomplice
>French Jack, specialized in the PANEL GAME; for a detailed account of Hoag
>and his carrer, _see_ Cohen (1985)).
>
>
>    Gerald Cohen wrote about this in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY.  "Smart alec" is
>discussed in the FYI section of Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES, but Cohen gets no
>credit!  BREWER'S is cited, but Adrian Room--who edited the new edition of
>BREWER'S--is likely to have relied on Gerald Cohen's work.  From FYI in the
>CITY section of today's NEW YORK TIMES:
>
>'Smart' Alec's Cons
>
>Q. Is it true that the term "smart alec" was coined in New York?
>
>A. Yes. According to Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (HarperCollins,
>2000), "Smart Alec" was a real person, Alec Hoag, who lived in New York in
>the mid-19th century, although his noted intelligence was mostly focused on
>breaking the law.
>
>Hoag was a well-known thief, pimp and confidence man who made his scores in
>New York in the 1840's.
>
>Along with his wife, Melinda, and an accomplice known as French Jack, he
>operated a con called "The Panel Game" in which a prostitute lured a customer
>to a room. An accomplice would then create a commotion outside the room,
>prompting the mark to block the door with a table or chair. Under the
>illusion of safety, the victim would fall asleep, at which point Hoag would
>sneak in the room through sliding panels on the wall and would relieve the
>sleeping mark of his remaining money and valuables.
>
>Hoag generated a reputation for the ability to escape detection from both his
>victims and the authorities, earning him the nickname Smart Alec. The term
>was eventually applied to any conceited know-it-all.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Dec  1 20:34:13 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:34:13 -0500
Subject: Origin of Word "Underdog"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0212011154200.16735-100000@minerva>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.153413.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>The word "underdog" is said to have originated in a 19th-century song or
>poem by David Barker ("The Under-Dog in the Fight").  Can anyone supply
>any information about when this Barker text was first published, and
>whether it was a song or a poem?

David Barker (1816-1874) is discussed here:

http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/me/penobscot/exeter/barker/sj3p183.txt

... apparently his first well-known poem was published in the New York
Evening Post in 1854 (it says here).

Barker's book "Poems" was published in 1876, apparently. No copy is
immediately available to me. Presumably the poem in question (whether or
not it's in this book) was published in a periodical at some earlier date.

The poem "The Under-Dog in the Fight" was apparently well known. This
expression apparently was taken up by Mark Twain (I don't know what date).
I don't know whether it began with Barker or whether it was already a stock
phrase before his poem.

Incidentally, MoA (Cornell) includes the following item "antedating" the
big dictionaries by 25 years (which item perhaps was already noticed by
Fred Shapiro):

1862: Dennar Stuart, "Camp-Meeting in Tennessee", in Harper's
26(151):97-102: p. 100:

<<"And, bretheren, you and I know that occasionally, if not oftener, I've
been the under-dog in the fight. ...">>

-- Doug Wilson


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Sun Dec  1 22:47:45 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 17:47:45 -0500
Subject: Origin of Word "Underdog"
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.174745.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Matthews' Dictionary of Americanisms cites B.F. Taylor, 1879.

--DS


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  1 22:52:02 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 17:52:02 -0500
Subject: Smart Aleck (1730?)
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.175202.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Smart Alec" is mentioned in Irving Lewis Allen's CITY IN SLANG (Oxford University Press, 1993, paperback 1995 with my name added for "Big Apple").  There is a "smart alec" footnote to Gerald Cohen's STUDIES IN SLANG.
   Allen's CITY IN SLANG is hardly obscure.  You can buy it right now at your local Barnes & Noble.

---------------------------------------------------------------
SMART ALECK

   From the NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS ABD DIARIES database (available at the NYPL, NYU, and here at Columbia):


1. Franks, Abigail Bilhah Levy. "Letter from Abigail Bilhah Levy Franks to Naphtali Franks, December 12, 1735" [ Note]
28 There were three weekly newspapers in London in 1735. The Country Journal: or The Craftsman which began publication in 1727, reported foreign and domestic news, as well as carrying advertisements. The Grub-Street Journal, a "literary paper run by a number of smart alecks" was first issued in 1730 and was discontinued in 1737 and rerun in 1738. The third was the Weekly Miscellany, first issued in December, 1732. It included accounts of religion, learning, and foreign and domestic news.It was a leisurely paper written by those accustomed to deal

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Results Bibliography
Franks, Abigail Bilhah Levy, 1696-1756, Letter from Abigail Bilhah Levy Franks to Naphtali Franks, December 12, 1735, in The Lee Max Friedman Collection of American Jewish Colonial Correspondence: Letters of the Franks Family, 1733-1748. Hershkowitz, Leo and Meyer, Isidore S.. Waltham, MA: American Jewish Historical Society, 1968, pp. 171. [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [12-12-1735] S2057-D011 Franks:L2057-11


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  1 23:13:33 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 18:13:33 -0500
Subject: Lebkuchen (1856?, 1859)
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.181333.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Is "lebkuchen" English?  It's not in OED and not in Merriam-Webster.  There are 30,400 Google hits.  Google asks me if I want just English hits; the result is a still-considerable 4,140 hits.
   I've mentioned "lebkuchen" before in connection with other German dishes.  You'll be seeing "lebkuchen" a lot again this December, as always.
   From the NORTH AMERICAN REVIEW, October 1859, start page 451 of 28-page article:

   For a few kreutzers, one may hear from an orchestra of forty instruments passages from all the best operas, and from time to time original compositions of native artists, with a treat of "Lebkuchen," or sweet-cakes, added as a gratuity.

(Review of PICTURES OF NUREMBERG, AND RAMBLES IN THE HILLS AND VALLEYS OF FRANCONIA, by H. J. Whitling, New Edition, London: Richard Bentley, 1856--ed.)


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Dec  2 00:36:04 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 19:36:04 -0500
Subject: Fwd: %"Underdog" Song (Quotation Query #235)
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.193604.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 12/1/02 8:53 AM, Fred Shapiro at fred.shapiro at yale.edu wrote:

> The word "underdog" is said to have originated in a 19th-century song
or
> poem by David Barker ("The Under-Dog in the Fight").  Can anyone
supply
> any information about when this Barker text was first published, and
> whether it was a song or a poem?

Fred:

I didn't find a song with lyrics by David Barker but I found these
entries
at the Levy Sheet Music Collection

Title: The Under Dog in the Fight.
Composer, Lyricist, Arranger: Composed by A.J. Higgins.
Publication: New York: J.L. Peters, n.d..
Form of Composition: strophic with chorus
Instrumentation: piano and voice
First Line: I know that the world the great big world From the Peasant
up to
the King
First Line of Chorus: For the under dog in the fight
Plate Number: 617
Subject: Dogs
Subject: Fighting
Subject: Political elections
Call No.: Box: 051 Item: 101

Title: The under Dog in the fight
Composer, Lyricist, Arranger: Composed by A.J. Higgins
Publication: Chicago, Ill.: A. Judson Higgins, 40 Clark St., 1861.
Form of Composition: strophic; last verse has different music
Instrumentation: voice and piano
First Line: I know that the world, the great big world From the Peasant
up
to the King
Advertisement: Ads on back for A. Judson Higgons stock
Plate Number: 617
Subject: Dogs
Subject: Fighting
Call No.: Box: 032 Item: 112


If you go to that web site and type in "under-dog" in the search box you
will get these results and can view the lyrics and music online.

http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/advancedsearch.html

I also searched the American Memory Project at Library of Congress for
that
term with no applicable results.

Karen Weiss
Santa Barbara Public Library


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Dec  2 00:32:46 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 19:32:46 -0500
Subject: Origin of Word "Underdog"
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.193246.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM,Net writes:
>Matthews' Dictionary of Americanisms cites B.F. Taylor, 1879.

>--DS

Making of America has quote for under dog 1862.  What does American
Periodical Series have?

Regards,
David Barnhart


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec  2 02:55:52 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:55:52 -0500
Subject: Pretzels & Armored Cow, Battery Acid, Dog Food,
 Jelly Doughnut (food slang)
In-Reply-To: <b7.2aab607e.2b1854f1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.215552.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 12:28:17AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>
> ---------------------------------------------
> DOUGHNUT DOLLY
>
>    Not in the RHHDAS.

Perhaps because it's not slang; _doughnut dolly_ was apparently an
official Red Cross name for female volunteers. This is mentioned
in the HDAS entry for _donut hole,_ which is found under that
spelling and not cross-referenced at the entry for _doughnut,_
due no doubt to the ineptness of the Random House editor who
worked on it.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Dec  2 03:06:27 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:06:27 -0600
Subject: Smart Aleck (1730?)
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.210627.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

>  The Grub-Street Journal, a "literary paper run by a number of smart
>alecks" was first issued in 1730 and was discontinued in 1737 and
>rerun in 1738.


***

     The question here is: Did the editors of the Grub-Street Journal
refer ca. 1730 to their publication as a "literary paper run by a
number of smart alecks"?
Or was this description added much later (19th or 20th century) by
someone injecting his own opinion about the editors and their work?

     If "smart aleck" really did appear in a London publication of ca. 1730,
this would be truly remarkable. As you know, the earliest attestation
thus far spotted is 1865 (in U.S.).

Jerry


>At 5:52 PM -0500 12/1/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>SMART ALECK
>
>    From the NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS ABD DIARIES database
>(available at the NYPL, NYU, and here at Columbia):
>
>
>1. Franks, Abigail Bilhah Levy. "Letter from Abigail Bilhah Levy
>Franks to Naphtali Franks, December 12, 1735" [ Note]
>28 There were three weekly newspapers in London in 1735. The Country
>Journal: or The Craftsman which began publication in 1727, reported
>foreign and domestic news, as well as carrying advertisements. The
>Grub-Street Journal, a "literary paper run by a number of smart
>alecks" was first issued in 1730 and was discontinued in 1737 and
>rerun in 1738. The third was the Weekly Miscellany, first issued in
>December, 1732. It included accounts of religion, learning, and
>foreign and domestic news.It was a leisurely paper written by those
>accustomed to deal...
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Results Bibliography
>Franks, Abigail Bilhah Levy, 1696-1756, Letter from Abigail Bilhah
>Levy Franks to Naphtali Franks, December 12, 1735, in The Lee Max
>Friedman Collection of American Jewish Colonial Correspondence:
>Letters of the Franks Family, 1733-1748. Hershkowitz, Leo and Meyer,
>Isidore S.. Waltham, MA: American Jewish Historical Society, 1968,
>pp. 171. [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [12-12-1735] S2057-D011
>Franks:L2057-11


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 03:20:23 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 22:20:23 -0500
Subject: Fish or Cut Bait (1868)
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.222023.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SMART ALECK--Columbia University has the GRUB STREET JOURNAL, but not from 1735.  I don't have time right now to track down the original note.

I'M FROM MISSOURI--I didn't find it in the DENVER POST from 1897 (I had looked many years ago), but I did find a poem that results in this note.

   11 July 1868, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8:
   Ex-councilman MERRITT was in favor of indorsing the nomination: they must either fish, or cut bait, and as they were not large enough to fish they must be content to cut bait for Tammany.

   26 April 1897, DENVER POST,pg. 4, col. 2 poem:
_Fish, Cut Bait, or Go Ashore._

(The online NEW YORK TIMES, with its reference to NYC politics, was the earliest place I found the phrase, but you can check again.  I searched for "cut bait"--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 03:34:59 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 22:34:59 -0500
Subject: Baking Soda, Cooking Soda, Baking Powder
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.223459.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I gave these a run through the databases.

BAKING POWDER
   I couldn't beat OED's 1850.
   The NATIONAL ERA, 25 November 1852, pg. 191 (American Periodical Series online) has an ad for DURKEE'S BAKING POWDER.  It is very possible that this was first made before 1850, but the first ad that I found for it is here.

BAKING SODA
   OED doesn't have a good entry for this.  It's under "soda."  Merriam-Webster has 1880?
   The Making of America (Mich.-Books) database has A. W. Chase's DR. CHASE'S RECIPES, 8th edition. Ann Arbor. Michigan, 1860, pages 31 and 173.
   GODEY'S LADY'S BOOK (Accessible Archives database) has it in May 1865, pg. 461.

COOKING SODA
   Another name for "baking soda."
   Making of American (Mich.-Books) has it in THE PROGESSIVE FARMER by John Adams, New York: A. O. Moore, 1859, pages 23 and 40.
   THE CHRISTIAN RECORDER from Philadelphia (Accessible Archives database) has it in 5 May 1866.


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Mon Dec  2 03:48:17 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 22:48:17 -0500
Subject: Fish or Cut Bait (1868)
In-Reply-To: <664DBE43.450C11A8.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.224817.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is what I've always taken the expression to mean, but how has it come
to mean "Get with the program or leave"?  It's used almost synonymously with
"Shit or get off the pot."

Herb




I'M FROM MISSOURI--I didn't find it in the DENVER POST from 1897 (I had
looked many years ago), but I did find a poem that results in this note.

   11 July 1868, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8:
   Ex-councilman MERRITT was in favor of indorsing the nomination: they must
either fish, or cut bait, and as they were not large enough to fish they
must be content to cut bait for Tammany.

   26 April 1897, DENVER POST,pg. 4, col. 2 poem:
_Fish, Cut Bait, or Go Ashore._

(The online NEW YORK TIMES, with its reference to NYC politics, was the
earliest place I found the phrase, but you can check again.  I searched for
"cut bait"--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Dec  2 04:12:51 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 23:12:51 -0500
Subject: Smart Aleck (1730?)
In-Reply-To: <p04310104ba106fb682bc@[131.151.65.69]>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.231251.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>     The question here is: Did the editors of the Grub-Street Journal
>refer ca. 1730 to their publication as a "literary paper run by a
>number of smart alecks"?
>Or was this description added much later (19th or 20th century) by
>someone injecting his own opinion about the editors and their work?
>
>     If "smart aleck" really did appear in a London publication of ca. 1730,
>this would be truly remarkable. As you know, the earliest attestation
>thus far spotted is 1865 (in U.S.).

The quotation including "smart alecks" is on p. 50, in footnote 28. The
footnote is by an editor, apparently, ca. 1960's. The short quote is not
explicitly attributed, but the author of the footnote refers (elsewhere in
the same note) to a source dated 1932, a book about old English newspapers
I think, which is likely the origin. Anyway, I see no suggestion that the
expression was used in the 18th century.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 15:26:27 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:26:27 -0500
Subject: Jay Walk (1911, 1916); Snake Oil (1911)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.102627.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from the Library of Congress.   This won't exactly get me on Jay Leno or even pay my bus fare down here, but let's begin.  OED has 1917 for "jaywalk."  From WASHINGTON POST full text:


   7 May 1911, WASHINGTON POST, pg. M2:
_New York Faker's Paradise._
_METROPOLIS FULL OF RUBES WHO WILL FALL FOR ANY KIND OF SKIN GAME._
   (Kansas City Star.)
(...)
   Right in line with these fakers is a show that has had a long run on Broadway at Twenty-ninth street.  This is Prof. Blank's Snake Oil show.  The professor has a full company--including the live rattlesnake, and Rattlesnake Pete, the old Indian, who does the capturing for the oil.
   Kansas City used to consider itself a town of jay walkers.  That is another line to which New York deserves the discredit of being at the front of the procession.  A typical Manhattan would be run over and trampled on the sidewalk if he tried to walk on State street in Chicago as he walks on Broadway, New York.  He has never heard of the prehistoric principle of keeping to the right--he ambles all over the sidewalk.  A fac simile of his trail would show that he had pursued a course as crooked as that of a serpent with a bun (?) on.  There ought to be a traffic policeman stationed on the sidewalk at every corner to keep the pedestrians straightened out.

   5 March 1916, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A5:
   Maj. Pullman will arrange another day of education of "walk-rite" by the Boy Scouts.  The inital efforts of the boys in that direction were badly handicapped by the weather the day they were out educating pedestrians against the "jay-walk."

   26 November 1916, WASHINGTON POST, pg. R8:
   It is to be known as "walkrite."  THe Boy Scouts will be out in full force on the four Saturdays of December--2, 9, 16 and 23.  The "jaywalkers" are men and women who cross the streets at angles, between corners and otherwise recklessly walk in the roadways or cross the streets, thus increasing the number of accidents.  "Heads up" and "walk-rite" will be the slogans of the Boy Scouts.

   10 December 1916, WASHINGTON POST, pg. FD6:
   The banners of the boys displayed all over the city "Walk Rite" and "Do Not Jay Walk," attracted general attention, and as a result, a majority of pedestrians now follow safety first rules in crossing streets.

(THE BOY SCOUTS HAVE NO PLACE IN NEW YORK CITY!!--ed.)


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Mon Dec  2 15:54:02 2002
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:54:02 -0500
Subject: Pretzels & Armored Cow, Battery Acid,
 Dog Food,Jelly Doughnut (food slang)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.105402.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Perhaps doughnut dolly is not a slang phrase, but in my unit in the
Korean DMZ, Summer 1967, we were told to stop using the phrase because
those whom we called doughnut dollies were offended by the phrase.  I
don't remember what they wanted to be called.  Things heated up in the
DMZ in the Fall, and the doughnut dollies no longer visited our unit.

It seems that they (the dollies) considered our usage to be offensive.
Not sure if that condition moves the phrase into the slang category or
not.

George Cole
Shippensburg University


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 15:59:54 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:59:54 EST
Subject: Jay Walk (1911, 1916); Snake Oil (1911)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.105954.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/2/02 10:27:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM
writes:

> This won't exactly get me on Jay Leno

I don't know.  Jay Leno might indeed be interested in his eponymous Jay Walk.

> OED has 1917 for "jaywalk."  From WASHINGTON POST full text:
>
>     7 May 1911, WASHINGTON POST, pg. M2:
>  _New York Faker's Paradise._
>  _METROPOLIS FULL OF RUBES WHO WILL FALL FOR ANY KIND OF SKIN GAME._
>     (Kansas City Star.)
>  (...)
>     Kansas City used to consider itself a town of jay walkers.

Typical Washington Post ignorance.  That should be "jay hawkers", as Kansas
is the "Jayhawk" state.

"Jaywalk" is named after Henry "Jay" Walke, Capt. USN (1808-96), a well-known
naval officer of the Civil War, whose most famous exploit was to "Jay Walke"
the gunboat USS Carondelet past the Confederate fortifications at Island No.
10.

>  A facsimile of his
> trail would show that he had pursued a course as crooked as that of a
serpent
> with a bun (?) on.

A first guess at the meaning of "with a bun on" would be "intoxicated", but
that simply will not work.  As my father told me, since a sober snake is
crooked [note 1], a drunken snake can be used as a straight edge.

           - Jim Landau

[note 1} "crooked" in the sense of "sinuous" or "meandering", although
popular confusion with the meaning "dishonest" is why crooks are referred to
as "Meanderthals".


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 16:24:50 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:24:50 -0500
Subject: Sound Bite (1973); Smithfield Ham (1888); Liberty Cabbage (1918)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.112450.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SOUND BITE
   Not food, but if you do eat, take a good, sound bite.
   19 July 1973, WASHINGTON POST, Pg. A18:
   NBC had a crew on hand for two full days of the convention, and WTOP carried several informative stories with filmed interviews and sound bites from speeches.

SMITHFIELD HAM
   9 January 1888, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 2 ad:
   Have choice lot of GENUINE SMITHFIELD HAMS, 2 years old, cured by Todd.
(...)
G. G. Cornwell & Son.

LIBERTY CABBAGE
   OED has the incredibly late 1927.  Obviously, it's WWI stuff.  Anything else to look up?
   22 October 1918, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 5 ad:
_Kraut_ Now Known as Liberty Cabbage.  quart. 15c
(...)
Old Dutch Market


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  2 16:49:22 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:49:22 -0500
Subject: Sound Bite (1973); Smithfield Ham (1888); Liberty Cabbage
 (1918)
In-Reply-To: <6CFE4363.3FD90D11.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.114922.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

yOn Mon, 2 Dec 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> SOUND BITE
>    Not food, but if you do eat, take a good, sound bite.
>    19 July 1973, WASHINGTON POST, Pg. A18:
>    NBC had a crew on hand for two full days of the convention, and WTOP
> carried several informative stories with filmed interviews and sound
> bites from speeches.

This is a substantial improvement on the 1980 dating in OED and Safire's
New Political Dictionary.  Here is a slightly earlier citation:

1973 _N.Y. Times_ 21 Jan. 127 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers)  "Sound
bite" is simply a sound statement -- a person talking on film, as opposed
to silent.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Mon Dec  2 17:05:22 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:05:22 -0800
Subject: Dutch oven
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.090522.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I know we discussed Dutch oven back in October. Last
night on the food channel (Good Eats, Pantry Raid II:
Cool Beans) Alton Brown stated, authoritatively, that
the name comes from the fact that the Dutch had some
special way of making cast iron for the ovens. Any
truth to this? Do we need to start a letter writing
campaign?

Ed

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Mon Dec  2 17:11:26 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:11:26 -0000
Subject: Break a leg
In-Reply-To: <6CFE4363.3FD90D11.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.171126.0000.>

We had a discussion about 18 months ago concerning the origin of this
theatrical expression.

I've recently been looking into it for a piece and have been struck
by the paucity of examples in print. It's not in the OED, there are
no examples I can find in out-of-copyright works (suggesting it is
indeed from the 1920s at the earliest, as some dictionaries suggest)
and my earliest written examples are from the 1980s. Could one of our
indefatigable researchers turn their databases towards it for me?

Also, an American theatrical friend is sure that he used to hear it
as "neck and leg break", which would suggest - if his memory is not
playing him false - that the supposed German origin of the expression
is likely to be the right one.

Dating is important here, as it could provide pointers towards which
of the completing stories of its origin are true. Certainly, from the
evidence, the common supposition among actors that it dates from the
eighteenth century is quite wrong.


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 17:47:29 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:47:29 -0500
Subject: When the going gets tough, the tough get going (1961)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.124729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   23 February 1961, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A18:
   Persons in sports have a simple yardstick for measuring a first-rate performer.  When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

   6 August 1963, WASHINGTON POST, "This Morning..." with Shirley Povich, pg. D5:
   But the Senators would do well to take their creed from Eddie Erdelatz, the old Navy football coach, and one of his aphorisms that said: "When the going gets tough, the tough get going."

(Eddie Erdelatz!  The "a tie is like kissing your sister" guy!  Who would know that he's being some of the century's greatest quotations?--ed.)


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Dec  2 17:50:28 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:50:28 -0500
Subject: Journalist's Query: "Like"
In-Reply-To: <8B9A64D6-0535-11D7-B5AF-0003931D8244@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.125028.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Le Sunday, 1 Dec 2002, à 09:02 America/New_York, Grant Barrett a écrit :

> Anyone want to field this?
>
>> De: "Meadows, Susannah" <Susannah.Meadows at Newsweek.com>
>> Date: Fri 29 Nov 2002  17:00:55 America/New_York
>> Hello, I'm a reporter and I'm working on a piece about the usage of
>> the word "like." I was hoping I could speak to someone at the American
>> Dialect Society about the article. My number is 212-445-5412. thanks
>> for your help,

If you were kind enough to respond to this journalist's query, please
let me know. Otherwise, I want to make sure to push it in the direction
of people who might not be paying attention to the list.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec  2 17:54:32 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:54:32 -0500
Subject: Break a leg
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.125432.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Bear in mind that the superstition, that it's bad luck to say good luck on opening night (as they say in The Producers), is probably older than "Break a leg."

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Quinion [mailto:TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 12:11 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Break a leg


Certainly, from the
evidence, the common supposition among actors that it dates from the
eighteenth century is quite wrong.


From ekconley at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  2 18:36:43 2002
From: ekconley at HOTMAIL.COM (Erin Conley)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:36:43 -0500
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.133643.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the small Kentucky community, where I grew up, people always referred to
the "trunk" of the car as the "boot."  I always thought it was the southern
way of saying it, until I first went to college in the mountains of Eastern
Kentucky.  It was there that my new friends laughed their heads off at
hearing me say this.  Someone told me that is how they refer to it in
England.  Does anyone know if theret is truth to that?  Since that time, I
have never heard any other Kentuckians refer to it as a "boot" other than
those who live in my little community.




_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail


From traduction at WORLDONLINE.FR  Mon Dec  2 18:50:00 2002
From: traduction at WORLDONLINE.FR (Catherine Merlen)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:50:00 +0000
Subject: trunk vs boot
In-Reply-To: <F149cfMAExA7jjbKswU00036ea2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.185000.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

le 2/12/02 18:36, Erin Conley à ekconley at HOTMAIL.COM a écrit :

> In the small Kentucky community, where I grew up, people always referred to
> the "trunk" of the car as the "boot."  I always thought it was the southern
> way of saying it, until I first went to college in the mountains of Eastern
> Kentucky.  It was there that my new friends laughed their heads off at
> hearing me say this.  Someone told me that is how they refer to it in
> England.  Does anyone know if theret is truth to that?  Since that time, I
> have never heard any other Kentuckians refer to it as a "boot" other than
> those who live in my little community.
--

Indeed, the boot is the trunk in england. They even have boot-sales here,
some sort of swapmart or garage sales out of the boot of their cars.

Catherine


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  2 19:00:07 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:00:07 -0500
Subject: Query on vowel mergers
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.140007.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An undergraduate student here, James Sumner, is looking for
references to work on the classic merger of front lax vowels before
nasals in Southern States English, e.g. neutralization of the
distinction in "pin"/"pen".   Are there standard reference books or
articles on this, treating the class of nasals (other than /n/)
licensing the merger, and whatever other variables might be involved?
James is also curious about the [gIt] pronunciation of "get", which
is presumably a case of lexical diffusion (no [bIt] for "bet" or
[mIt] for "met").

Please send all responses to <james.sumner at yale.edu> as well as to the list.

Thanks.

--larry


From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU  Mon Dec  2 19:06:07 2002
From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:06:07 -0600
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.130607.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Boot" was/is?? widely used in Texas also.

Catherine Merlen wrote:

> le 2/12/02 18:36, Erin Conley à ekconley at HOTMAIL.COM a écrit :
>
> > In the small Kentucky community, where I grew up, people always referred to
> > the "trunk" of the car as the "boot."  I always thought it was the southern
> > way of saying it, until I first went to college in the mountains of Eastern
> > Kentucky.  It was there that my new friends laughed their heads off at
> > hearing me say this.  Someone told me that is how they refer to it in
> > England.  Does anyone know if theret is truth to that?  Since that time, I
> > have never heard any other Kentuckians refer to it as a "boot" other than
> > those who live in my little community.
> --
>
> Indeed, the boot is the trunk in england. They even have boot-sales here,
> some sort of swapmart or garage sales out of the boot of their cars.
>
> Catherine


From dave at WILTON.NET  Mon Dec  2 19:09:37 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:09:37 -0800
Subject: Break a leg
In-Reply-To: <3DEB943E.9413.F67991@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.110937.0800.>

> We had a discussion about 18 months ago concerning the origin of this
> theatrical expression.
>
> I've recently been looking into it for a piece and have been struck
> by the paucity of examples in print. It's not in the OED, there are
> no examples I can find in out-of-copyright works (suggesting it is
> indeed from the 1920s at the earliest, as some dictionaries suggest)
> and my earliest written examples are from the 1980s. Could one of our
> indefatigable researchers turn their databases towards it for me?
>
> Also, an American theatrical friend is sure that he used to hear it
> as "neck and leg break", which would suggest - if his memory is not
> playing him false - that the supposed German origin of the expression
> is likely to be the right one.
>
> Dating is important here, as it could provide pointers towards which
> of the completing stories of its origin are true. Certainly, from the
> evidence, the common supposition among actors that it dates from the
> eighteenth century is quite wrong.

Partridge's "Dictionary of Catchphrases," Paul Beale, ed. has a pretty good
write up on the phrase. No specific citations before the '70s though.
Although it does record actors recalling the phrase from the '30s and '40s.
HDAS has some cites from the '60s, IIRC.

Consensus seems to be that it's from the '20s, but I haven't seen actual
citations earlier than those in HDAS.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec  2 19:27:33 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:27:33 -0500
Subject: When the going gets tough, the tough get going (1961)
In-Reply-To: <1480101C.480DE10D.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.142733.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 12:47:29PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    23 February 1961, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A18:
>    Persons in sports have a simple yardstick for measuring a
> first-rate performer.  When the going gets tough, the tough
> get going.

>    6 August 1963, WASHINGTON POST, "This Morning..." with
>    Shirley Povich, pg. D5: But the Senators would do well to
>    take their creed from Eddie Erdelatz, the old Navy
>    football coach, and one of his aphorisms that said: "When
>    the going gets tough, the tough get going."
>
> (Eddie Erdelatz!  The "a tie is like kissing your sister"
> guy!  Who would know that he's being some of the century's
> greatest quotations?--ed.)

Hell, if you want to give Erdelatz some credit, you might as
well give him an earlier example of the phrase:

1956 Washington Post 30 Nov. A19 The Thing Erdelatz likes to
talk about most is the 'eagerness' of this team. Two big
signs in the Navy locker room read: "When the Going Gets
Tough, the Tough Get Going" and "A Little Extra Effort is
the Difference between Good and Great."

However, the WP of 23 August 1956 attributes the phrase
to Notre Dame football coach Frank Leahy.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec  2 20:06:40 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:06:40 -0500
Subject: trunk vs boot
In-Reply-To: <3DEBAF1F.9BA3F97D@wku.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.150640.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And I've had students from very far south in Ohio (Portsmouth, Ironton) who 
also use 'boot'.  Is it perhaps South Midland, or more generally Southern?

At 01:06 PM 12/2/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>"Boot" was/is?? widely used in Texas also.
>
>Catherine Merlen wrote:
>
> > le 2/12/02 18:36, Erin Conley à ekconley at HOTMAIL.COM a écrit :
> >
> > > In the small Kentucky community, where I grew up, people always 
> referred to
> > > the "trunk" of the car as the "boot."  I always thought it was the 
> southern
> > > way of saying it, until I first went to college in the mountains of 
> Eastern
> > > Kentucky.  It was there that my new friends laughed their heads off at
> > > hearing me say this.  Someone told me that is how they refer to it in
> > > England.  Does anyone know if theret is truth to that?  Since that 
> time, I
> > > have never heard any other Kentuckians refer to it as a "boot" other than
> > > those who live in my little community.
> > --
> >
> > Indeed, the boot is the trunk in england. They even have boot-sales here,
> > some sort of swapmart or garage sales out of the boot of their cars.
> >
> > Catherine


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec  2 20:17:27 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:17:27 -0500
Subject: Journalist's Query: "Like"
In-Reply-To: <8B36AF44-061E-11D7-A488-0003931D8244@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.151727.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:50 PM 12/2/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Le Sunday, 1 Dec 2002, à 09:02 America/New_York, Grant Barrett a écrit :
>
>>Anyone want to field this?
>>
>>>De: "Meadows, Susannah" <Susannah.Meadows at Newsweek.com>
>>>Date: Fri 29 Nov 2002  17:00:55 America/New_York
>>>Hello, I'm a reporter and I'm working on a piece about the usage of
>>>the word "like." I was hoping I could speak to someone at the American
>>>Dialect Society about the article. My number is 212-445-5412. thanks
>>>for your help,
>
>If you were kind enough to respond to this journalist's query, please
>let me know. Otherwise, I want to make sure to push it in the direction
>of people who might not be paying attention to the list.

I've had several students write papers on "like," with references from 
_American Speech_ and other scholarly journals.  It's been well studied, 
but apparently reporters don't know how to do an MLA or LLBA search!  I 
could pass on a couple of refs now that my grades are in.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  2 20:57:34 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:57:34 -0500
Subject: Break a leg
In-Reply-To: <000201c29a36$5bf7e780$0300a8c0@HPN5290>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.155734.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Dave Wilton wrote:

> Partridge's "Dictionary of Catchphrases," Paul Beale, ed. has a pretty good
> write up on the phrase. No specific citations before the '70s though.
> Although it does record actors recalling the phrase from the '30s and '40s.
> HDAS has some cites from the '60s, IIRC.

The earliest citation in HDAS is dated 1964.  Here is earlier from
ProQuest Historical Newspapers:

1957 _N.Y. Times_ 25 Apr. 23  All-Square Playhouse, a New York University
student dramatic group, will present an original musical, "Break a Leg."
... Alan Mount, a senior has written the score and book.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 21:07:19 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:07:19 -0500
Subject: Last in the American League (1904); Bullpen (1913)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.160719.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TOUGH GET GOING

   I searched for "the going gets tough" and "the tough get going" and 1961 was the earliest.  I knew I was missing something, and I was going to try a simpler query later.  I then searched for "going gets tough" and "tough get going"--leaving out the "the"--and got the three earlier hits.
   It certainly looks like it wasn't coined by Joe Kennedy...In that post, "being" should have read "behind."

---------------------------------------------------------------
I'M FROM MISSOURI

   I didn't find it in the COLORADO SPRINGS GAZETTE or the ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS of 1897.  You go blind looking at that small print.


---------------------------------------------------------------
LAST IN THE AMERICAN LEAGUE

   27 June 1904, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8:
   Charley Dryden says: "Washington--First in war, first in peace, last in the American League, rah, rah, rah."

---------------------------------------------------------------
BULLPEN

   Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY has 1915?

   17 August 1913, WASHINGTON POST, pg. S2:
   He corrects the faults of the youthful trajectory hurlers and takes them to the "bullpen" in the afternoon and keeps them warmed up.

   12 April 1914, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 10:
   At this juncture Manager Callahan crooked his index finger and "Butcher" Benz ambled in from the "bull pen."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 21:18:19 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:18:19 -0500
Subject: When the going gets tough, the tough get going (1961)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.161819.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Lots of other forms are close.  Try this:

   24 January 1943, WASHINGTON POST, pg. R5:
_Hornsby Sharp in Criticism_
_Of Would-Be Baseball Quitters_
(...)
   "When the going get tough is the time to do your hardest fighting.  Anybody can sail along when there's nothing to interfere and everything is bright and sunshiny.  What if we do lose some money.  It won't be the first time.  But we ought to keep the game going."


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 21:40:29 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:40:29 EST
Subject: When the going gets tough, the tough get going (1961)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.164029.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/2/02 4:19:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM
writes:

> Anybody can sail along when there's nothing to interfere and everything is
> bright and sunshiny.

Wasn't it Thomas Paine who referred to "summer soldiers and sunshine
patriots"?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 21:50:17 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:50:17 -0500
Subject: Ducks in a Row (1932); Bees Knees
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.165017.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DUCKS IN A ROW

   13 June 1932, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 14:
   We have a world filled today with problems and we are trying to get our economic ducks in a row.

---------------------------------------------------------------
BEES KNEES

   29 June 1923, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 15:
   "Dis am de bee's knees."

   25 January 1925, WASHINGTON POST, pg. SM7:
_THE EVOLUTION OF SLANG_
_Whether It's "Apple Sauce" or "The Oyster's Earrings," You Will Always Find the "Dippy Dialect" Expressive of the Fads and Foibles of Current Life, as Ada Lewis, the Comedienne of Bowery Fame, Here Tells_
   NO NOON hour on the college campus or in the office lunchroom would be complete without the words: "Apple sauce," "red-hot mama," "dumb-dora," "petting," "the bee's knees," "the snake's hips," "the elephant's manicure," not to speak of the "tadpole's teddies."
(...)
(The following is in a box--ed.)
         _Jargon of the Juveniles_
_Grandma_             _Mother_            _Daughter_
Charmer               Vamp                Red-hot mama
Hot air               Spoofing            Apple sauce
Wall flower           Dead one            Flat tire
Heart breaker         Lady killer         Sheik
The laugh             Merry ha-ha         Raspberries
Dude                  Sport               Cake-eater
Four-flusher          Sponge              Lounge lizard
Sparking              Spooning            Petting
Cutie                 Chicken             Flapper
Good for you!         Bully!              Attaboy!
Quit yer kiddin'      Lay off             Be yourself
Up stage              Putting on the dog  Ritzy
Ah, there!            O you kiddo!        Hot dog!
The goods             The cheese          Cat's meow
Guy                   Poor simp           Poor fish
Beat it               Skidoo              Ankle along
Poor sport            Tight-wad           Cheap skate


(I'll have to look up "Ada Lewis, mistress of modern slang" in the NYPL Performing Arts Library's clipping files--ed.)


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Dec  2 22:01:17 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:01:17 -0500
Subject: Break a leg
In-Reply-To: <3DEB943E.9413.F67991@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.170117.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, I've heard a Yiddish form cited, "Brekh a fiss".

-- Mark A. Mandel


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec  2 22:43:49 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:43:49 -0500
Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0211301938340.77537115-100000@shell01.TheWor
 ld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.174349.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Mark!
Actually, I like your physics-of-the-mouth description (openness of script
a with lip formation of turned c).  I'll use that next time I teach dialect
variation to my grad students!  I don't bother to teach the turned script a
to my undergrads; but interestingly, when I ask southern Ohioans to
transcribe a word like "body" they almost always give me the turned c
(rhyming with my Northern 'bawdy'), suggesting that their phonemic sense of
the sound is that of open O.

At 07:43 PM 11/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sat, 30 Nov 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote to Beverly Flanigan:
>
>#"<<intermediate>> inverted script a"?
>#
>#As I read your post, it looks to me as if you are saying that "open /o/"
>#-- by which I understand the IPA turned-c, a low-mid back rounded vowel
>#-- is lower than "inverted script a" -- low back rounded vowel. And
>#that's backwards. Or I've forgotten all the IPA I ever knew. And that's
>#scary.
>#
>#Am I misunderstanding your post?
>
>Grrrumph. I certainly was. My apologies to Bev and to the list. I'll
>blame it on writing before supper. If I'd read the whole thing together
>I'd've realized that Bev said exactly what she meant, and neither of us
>was forgetting the IPA. <turned script a> IS reasonably "intermediate"
>between <turned c> and <script a>, having the openness of the latter and
>the lip formation of the former. I was miscuing off her phrase "full
>/open o/", mis-taking "full" to mean "at an extreme of a range" (i.e.,
>openness).
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec  2 23:13:15 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:13:15 -0500
Subject: Black Friday
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.181315.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I've been seeing a lot of references to "Black Friday," the Friday after Thanksgiving that marks the traditional start to the Christmas shopping season.  (There are always some newspaper articles that call it the busiest shopping day of the year, though actually there are several other days that are busier.  Usually the Saturday before Christmas is the busiest shopping day of the year.)  I was general counsel at Child World, a then competitor of Toys R Us, before the company's demise in 1992, and I never heard the term there.  I'm more used to "black" days being days when the stock market crashed.

        "Black Friday" apparently refers to the day's heavy traffic.  The term seems to have become quite popular; a Google search for "Black Friday" and Thanksgiving produces 3570 hits.  The earliest use I've seen is from The Record, Northern New Jersey, 12/3/85:  "This is high noon on black Friday, the day after Thanksgiving, the first day of Christmas, the day when Route 46 and Route 23 clot with holiday pilgrims, the day when as many as 3,000 people beach up at Fountains of Wayne to see the animated Santa display."

        For an earlier reference to "Black Friday" as a Friday with heavy traffic, here's the Wall Street Journal, 1/23/84, referring to the 1984 Olympics:  "TRAFFIC:  Stanley Buckmaster has nightmares about "Black Friday."  That is what he and other officials at the California Transportation Department call Aug. 3 - a day when sellout boxing, swimming and track and field competition run almost all day long in the Coliseum - University of Southern California area.  Given Los Angeles's almost fanatical attachment to the private automobile and a shortfall of 16,000 parking places in the area, traffic could be a big problem."

John Baker


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 23:18:09 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:18:09 -0500
Subject: Mull (1963); Wedge (1959)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.181809.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MULL

   Jesse Sheidlower asked me for an earlier "mull" than DARE 1966. I probably have it.  I don't feel like looking through 60 years of AMERICAN COOKERY and TABLE TALK and BETTER HOMES & GARDENS and GOURMET right now, though.
   "Mull" is not in John Edgerton's SOUTHERN COOKING, at least not that I saw in the index.


GEMS FROM GEORGIA KITCHENS
Compiled by
The Garden Club of Georgia, Inc.
1963

Pg. 124:
      _SHRIMP MULL_
5 lbs. raw, peeled shrimp
2 quarts water
2 cans tomatoes
2 cloves garlic, sliced
2 sticks butter
2 tablespoons Worcestershire
1 can tomato soup
1 cup diced white bacon
1 cup chopped onion
1 lemon, sliced
1 bottle catsup
1 cup sherry
1 cup chopped celery
1 teaspoon celery seed
1/4 teaspoon curry powder
15 drops Tobasco sauce
Cooked rice
   Brown bacon with onion and one stick butter.  Transfer to a pot.  Add all other ingredients except shrimp and 1 stick butter.  Boil for 2 hours; then add raw shrimp; cook gently 1 hour more.  Add one stick of butter and sherry.  Place in tureen; serve over rice.


RECIPES FROM
THE OLDE PINK HOUSE
1771
Atlanta: DuBose Publishing
1981

Pg. 72:  Ogeechee Mull.

---------------------------------------------------------------
WEDGE

   Someone on this list worships wedges.  I don't know what DARE has.  Until they bring out my other telephone books:

Yonkers, Mt. Vernon, Bronxville, Tuckahoe
YELLOW PAGES CLASSIFIED TELEPHONE DIRECTORY
1960
Corrected to October 13, 1959

Pg. 315, col. 1 ad:
_GAITO'S INN_
YOnkers 9-9269
Specializing in
ITALIAN
HOT WEDGES
TO GO
434 SAWMILL RIVER RD.  YONKERS


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Dec  2 23:36:16 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:36:16 -0500
Subject: FWD  query on SW dialect
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.183616.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A friend on the English faculty at N. Mex State U asked me to post this to
ADS-L.
Answers can be sent directly to him:

Tom Lynch  <tomlynch at nmsu.edu>

(with those of general interest copied to ADS-L).
A. Murie
~~~~~~~~~~
FWD
  > I've heard several people in New Mexico who I take to be full-blooded
Anglos who speak English with a noticeable Spanish accent.  I think some of
the Anglos who grow up in predominately Spanish-speaking communities must
pick this accent up as the standard form of English.  I don't know if
anyone has ever studied this, but it's quite interesting and suggests the
possibility of an emerging Southwestern accent.  Has anyone else noticed
this?  <
Tom Lynch  tomlynch at nmsu.edu
New Mexico State University


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 23:40:31 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:40:31 -0500
Subject: Black Friday; Wedge (1958)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.184031.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BLACK FRIDAY--My "Black Fridays of Finance" post is old in the ADS-L archives.  However, I specifically made a post about "Black Friday," the day after Thanksgiving.  Fred Shapiro checked the databases and came up with something that's before 1985.  I guess all that's been destroyed.

WEDGE--
Yonkers, Mt. Vernon, Bronxville, Tuckahoe
YELLOW PAGES
CLASSIFIED TELEPHONE DIRECTORY
1958
Corrected to January 3, 1958

Pg. 320, col. 3:
_GAITO'S INN_
Specializes in Hot Wedges
   434SawMillRiverRd---YOnkers 9-9269


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec  2 23:52:42 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:52:42 -0500
Subject: Black Friday; Wedge (1958)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.185242.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        "Black Fridays of Finance" is there, but I don't see any posts before mine that mention "Black Friday" as the day after Thanksgiving.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 6:41 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Black Friday; Wedge (1958)


BLACK FRIDAY--My "Black Fridays of Finance" post is old in the ADS-L archives.  However, I specifically made a post about "Black Friday," the day after Thanksgiving.  Fred Shapiro checked the databases and came up with something that's before 1985.  I guess all that's been destroyed.


From sylvar at VAXER.NET  Tue Dec  3 01:57:51 2002
From: sylvar at VAXER.NET (Ben Ostrowsky)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:57:51 -0800
Subject: Black Friday
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540DB0F3@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.175751.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

By way of explanation, since I haven't seen this said explicitly on the
list (or did I miss it?) -- according to the discussion on Slashdot, it's
called Black Friday because it's said to be the day that many retailers
finally get into the black (become profitable) for the year.

Ben


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Dec  3 02:20:58 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 21:20:58 -0500
Subject: Black Friday
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.212058.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Yes, many of the news reports do attribute the name to retailers going into the black, and this may have been a factor in the term's acceptance, but the earliest cites seem to derive the term from its use to indicate a bad traffic day.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Ostrowsky [mailto:sylvar at VAXER.NET]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 8:58 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Black Friday


By way of explanation, since I haven't seen this said explicitly on the
list (or did I miss it?) -- according to the discussion on Slashdot, it's
called Black Friday because it's said to be the day that many retailers
finally get into the black (become profitable) for the year.

Ben


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Dec  3 02:54:24 2002
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:54:24 -0800
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.185424.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lesa:

> "Boot" was/is?? widely used in Texas also.

Where in Texas would that be?  Like some others on this list, I always
thought "boot" for "trunk" of a car was strictly British.
Anne G


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Tue Dec  3 09:34:26 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:34:26 -0700
Subject: Teaching American English
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.023426.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(I am sending this to the list for general information, and with the hope
that it might somehow get forwarded to Michael Adams and Anne Curzan, the
latter of whom is noted in the latest NADS as chairing the session on
Teaching Varieties of English in America at the upcoming ADS meeting. The
e-addresses given for both in the Directory of Members [which is titled
for 2001 -- a typo?] bounced when I tried to send the note to them.
Perhaps some of the old-timers on the list can add some corroborating or
additional information.) -- RCT

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anne,

        I was interested to see in the latest NADS that you and Michael
Adams are noting in a special JEL issue that American English has only
recently become a subject of study in American classrooms, and that you
are chairing a panel at the ADS meeting this year. I can't be present, but
thought I would pass along to you a historical note that you might
represent at the meeting (and if you are writing any more on this topic).

        I took a course on American English at the Linguistic Institute at
the University of Chicago in 1954, taught by Mitford Mathews. I don't know
whether this was a regular course, or one arranged just for the Institute.
It was a graduate course, and I also don't know whether he regularly
taught an undergrad version. But the UC press did put out a book of
readings edited by him that probably represented a selection that could be
used in an undergrad course. I don't know what courses Raven McDavid
taught at UC, but I would be surprised if he did not regularly offer such
a course either at the graduate or undergraduate level. Bagby Atwood also
offered a graduate course on dialectology in the 1950s at the University
of Texas (now -Austin), which mainly concerned American English, but there
was nothing formally offered at the undergrad level. However, we always
included something on this in our English grammar course at UT, which must
have been fairly common, as witness McDavid's appendix to Nelson Francis'
Structure of American English.

        Also, during the halcyon days of linguistics in the public school
curriculum in the 1960s, when Harold Allen and Albert Marckwardt were
presidents of NCTE, and NDEA summer institutes abounded, there was a lot
of emphasis on this subject in school textbooks, and the Texas Education
Agency even required (thanks to efforts by some of my good friends like
Mary Galvan, later president of TESOL) that English textbooks include
recognition of linguistic variation in American English (this was before
the conservative counter-revolution that took Texas, and the US, back to
the 1930s).

        During this period, materials and texts for college classes were
also being published, most of which subsequently went out of print. So I
suspect that the current interest can be regarded as a resurgence, rather
than a recent phenomenon. Here at the University of Arizona, I regularly
teach an undergrad/grad course on American English, as part of our
undergraduate concentration in English linguistics (which I suspect is
rare among English departments -- it would be interesting to know how
many universities have such a concentration; in fact, our department
recently overwhelmingly approved a requirement of a course on
language/linguistics for all undergraduate English majors). We also have
a separate undergraduate course in English sociolinguistics.

        Good luck with it all,

        Rudy Troike


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec  3 10:30:38 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:30:38 EST
Subject: Yanigan, Lalapaloosa (1904); TAD myth (April 1930)
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.053038.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MISC. (JUNK FOOD, SOUND BITE, LOLLAPALOOZA)

   I requested EAT, LIVE AND BE MERRY (1951) by Carlton Fredericks.  I made a
special trip to the Library of Congress in Washington; the NYPL record says
"missing."  I was looking for "junk food."  I waited five hours.  No book, no
returned call slip, no anything.  I was told that the book was coming from
another building, so it takes time.  Well, yeah--FIVE HOURS TO COME ACROSS
THE STREET?  Yeesh.  Every single trip this happens to the book I want
most...."Junk food" was not in his book from the 1940s.
   Merriam-Webster has 1972 for "sound bite."  I looked at OED's 1980 date.
My apologies--I take it all back.
   "Lollapalooza" is in the RHHDAS as "orig. unkn."  The first citation is
from George Ade in 1896.  The second citation (a baseball one) is from the
1898 SPORTING NEWS and "coll. B. Popik."  It's probably here somewhere
underneath my stuff from Easter Island, or is it mixed in with...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
YANIGAN, LALAPALOOSA

   10 April 1904, WASHINGTON POST, pg. S2:
    _ORIGIN OF "YANIGANS."_
_Baseball Term Which Applies to the Second Team in Practice._
Charles Dryden, in Philadelphia North American.
   With the opening of the annual spring training season the term "Yanigans,"
as applied to the second team in practice games, bursts into print.  The word
is used at no other time in the career of the athletes, and the fanatic, no
doubt, wonders why is a Yanigan.  He must have had an origin.
   Authorities on baseball trace the term to a native Philadelphian, no other
than the Hon. Mike Grady, a catcher and orator of renown.  Mike is said to be
the father of Yanigan, according to Connie Mack and Lave Cross.  These
historians claim the word was first applied to Philadelphia players, and
first apepared in the Philadelphia papers ten years ago.
   In 1894 the Quaker team went into camp at Hampton Roads, Va.  The immortal
Grady was a member of the party.  THe manager placed Mike in charge of the
also-rans, or second team, and the ease with which the Regulars walloped the
bitumen out of the dubs inspired Mike to produce a word that lives in the
language of the game.
   In the ancient Celtic tongue Yanigan means anything that can be easily
beaten, like carpets or a soft-boiled egg.  Being a student of the classics,
Mike was familiar with the word.  He had it stowed away in his mind, but
never found occasion to spring it until as captain of the second team his
proud spirit blazed under the sting of constant defeat.
   So it came about that one balmy afternoon in the spring of 1894, Hampton
Roads was stirred by the spectacle of Mr. Grady standing in the street in
front of the Quaker training quarters.  He was swinging his cap and howling,
"Come on, you Yanigan; come on and get it again!"
   No one present knew the meaning of the word, but it seemed to fit Grady's
mood and the case.  The scribes took it up, and from that day to this Yanigan
has emerged regularly from its hole along about groundhog time to play a
brief engagement in the public prints.  Soon after April Fool Day the word
hokes back to its hole to hibernate the better part of another year.
   Yanigan doesn't spread much ink outside of the Quaker City.  Sometimes the
St. Louis papers spring it, which fact strengthens the claim made on behalf
of Grady.  The irresponsible Mike once played in that city, and is now a
member of the Cardinal team, having been taken on as a special World's Fair
attraction to play first base and keep the conversation from lagging.
   Grady is also said to be the author of Lalapaloosa, the meaning of which
is somewhat obscure, though it sometimes butts into a tight game.  Mike would
gladly elucidate if gently approached by letter, care of the St. Louis
Cardinals.

(I'll send one right now--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
TAD MYTH

   Thomas A. Dorgan died in 1929.  I posted the Harry Stevens story in the
June 1930 RESTAURANT MAN as the earliest for the myth, but this is slightly
earlier.


   19, April 1930, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 15:
_PEGLER_ (Westbrook Pegler, who was also a columnist on the NEW YORK
WORLD-TELEGRAM--ed.)
(...)
_When Tad Dorgan Named_
_The Hot Dog._
   The most picturesque dealings he ever had were in the old Garden at the
six-day bicycle race s long before
(Continued on Page 17, Column 5)
Tex Richard brought in the strong-arm squad to refine the show to death.  Tad
Dorgan, the cartoonist, drew a picture against the background of the old
six-day race presenting the first known public reference to the common boiled
frankfurter as the hot  dog.  Since then, under the subtle sales pressure of
old Mr. Stevens' boys, the hot dog has become the native delicatessen of the
City of New York.  He has sold enough of them to girdle the earth, and the
original of Tad's cartoon, the picture that loosed the plague of hot dog
signs upon the countryside of the Atlantic seaboard, hangs in a frame in his
office.

(Again, DARE's Leonard Zwilling found this 1906 TAD cartoon.  Gerald Cohen
published Zwilling's TAD LEXICON about ten years ago. I found "hot dog" in a
Yale University publication of 1895--ed.)


From mlv at POBOX.COM  Tue Dec  3 12:05:18 2002
From: mlv at POBOX.COM (Michael Vezie)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:05:18 -0500
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.070518.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would wonder if the trunk/boot difference mirrors the hood/bonnet
difference (if where people say boot instead of trunk, they also say
bonnet instead of hood).

Michael


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Dec  3 13:57:57 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:57:57 EST
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.085757.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/3/02 7:05:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, mlv at POBOX.COM
writes:

> I would wonder if the trunk/boot difference mirrors the hood/bonnet
>  difference (if where people say boot instead of trunk, they also say
>  bonnet instead of hood).

Wasn't the rear luggage area of a stagecoach known as the "boot" on both
American and British stagecoaches?  If so, then it appears obvious why the
British refer to the "boot" of an automobile, and a good question why
Americans switched to "trunk".

As far as I am aware, Americans refer to the "hood" and "trunk" of a car, and
British to the "bonnet" and "boot".  Again the British use is more
consistent, since both ends of a car are called by names of items of clothing
which in fact are worn on opposite ends of the body.

Perhaps Americans a century ago were in the habit of putting belongings in
footlockers or steamer trunks and lashing them on the back of automobiles, oe
perhaps early American automobiles had rear luggage compartments that
resembled steamer trunks.

If Henry Ford had been an Inuit, would we refer to the covering over the
engine as a "parka"?

And then there is the problem of what to call the front luggage compartment
of a Volkswagen.

      -   James A. Landau
          systems engineer
          FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI)
          Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA


From THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU  Tue Dec  3 14:01:20 2002
From: THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:01:20 -0500
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.090120.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Actually, where I grew up (north Florida in the 1950s), that part of the car
was called the cooter shell, at least by some of my relatives.  This may
have been jocular usage, but it had some currency.

Thom Harrison


-----Original Message-----
From: Beverly Flanigan [mailto:flanigan at OHIOU.EDU]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 3:07 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: trunk vs boot


And I've had students from very far south in Ohio (Portsmouth, Ironton) who
also use 'boot'.  Is it perhaps South Midland, or more generally Southern?

At 01:06 PM 12/2/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>"Boot" was/is?? widely used in Texas also.
>
>Catherine Merlen wrote:
>
> > le 2/12/02 18:36, Erin Conley à ekconley at HOTMAIL.COM a écrit :
> >
> > > In the small Kentucky community, where I grew up, people always
> referred to
> > > the "trunk" of the car as the "boot."  I always thought it was the
> southern
> > > way of saying it, until I first went to college in the mountains of
> Eastern
> > > Kentucky.  It was there that my new friends laughed their heads off at
> > > hearing me say this.  Someone told me that is how they refer to it in
> > > England.  Does anyone know if theret is truth to that?  Since that
> time, I
> > > have never heard any other Kentuckians refer to it as a "boot" other
than
> > > those who live in my little community.
> > --
> >
> > Indeed, the boot is the trunk in england. They even have boot-sales
here,
> > some sort of swapmart or garage sales out of the boot of their cars.
> >
> > Catherine


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Dec  3 16:12:18 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:12:18 -0600
Subject: Yanigan (baseball term)
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.101218.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

First, thanx to Barry for unearthing the 1904 item on "Yanigan."
Also, the 19c Baseball discussion group has had a few messages on
this term (two of which are reproduced below my signoff, plus Barry's
message).

Gerald Cohen
member of American Dialect Society and 19cBB


>At 9:29 AM -0400 9/23/02, John Thorn wrote:
>X-Apparently-To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
>To: "Nineteenth Century" <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>Organization: The Toy Department
>From: "John Thorn" <john at toy-department.com>
>Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:29:47 -0400
>Subject: [19cBB] Re: Con Yannigan
>Reply-To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>In reply to Peter Morris's query:
>
>'Who on earth is Con Yannigan?  I have long been seeking the exact origins
>of
>the term "yannigan," used to describe a player on an inexperienced side
>(usually during spring training).  I have narrowed down the period of its
>origin and have found some interesting accounts about it, but nothing on the
>exact etymology.  Dickson's Baseball Dictionary goes so far as to say "there
>is no clear link between this word and a word in another language or an
>earlier form of English or an English dialect."  This seems promising; can
>you elucidate?"
>
>Here goes. Some fifteen yeras ago I found an undated news clip from the 1898
>New York World, titled "Armless, Legless Pitchers," in the Cy Seymour
>Scrapbooks in the National Baseball Library. I included it in my "Armchair
>Book of Baseball II, published buy Scribners in 1987." In my introductory
>remarks I wrote that the clip was "replete with unexpected pleasures" that
>included "the stunningly offhand solution to one of game's most perplexing
>mysteries--the origin of the epithet 'yannigan,' reserved for scrub or
>second-rate players."
>
>Here, from the World:
>
>"Another cripple who was famous as a ballpayer was 'Con' Yannigan, who made
>a big reputation around Hartford, Connecticut, several years ago. He was a
>first baseman and had a cork leg. Yannigan was brought out by 'Steve' Brady,
>of the 'Old Mets.' 'Steve' considered him one of the best first baseman he
>ever saw. A great play of his was to block off base runners with his game
>leg. Opposing players could sharpen their spikes to a razor edge, but 'Con'
>didn't scare for  a cent."
>
>Is this a Paul Bunyan sort of yarn? Maybe. But there it is, an emerging
>legend in 1898, and a solid answer as to how yannigans came to be called
>yannigans.
>
>John Thorn
>


****

[22 Sept. 2002 message from Peter Morris]:

>To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>From: "Peter Morris" <moxbib at voyager.net>
>Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 20:24:49 -0400
>Subject: RE: [19cBB] Con Yannigan
>
>Who on earth is Con Yannigan?  I have long been seeking the exact origins of
>the term "yannigan," used to describe a player on an inexperienced side
>(usually during spring training).  I have narrowed down the period of its
>origin and have found some interesting accounts about it, but nothing on the
>exact etymology.  Dickson's Baseball Dictionary goes so far as to say "there
>is no clear link between this word and a word in another language or an
>earlier form of English or an English dialect."  This seems promising; can
>you elucidate?
>
>One-Arm Daily was still alive and living in Baltimore in 1923 at age 75, but
>I've checked for a dc in Baltimore and Washington without success.  He'd
>already faded into obscurity by then and probably died in a hospital outside
>of Baltimore.
>
>Peter Morris



At 5:30 AM -0500 12/3/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>Date:         Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:30:38 EST
>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Subject:      Yanigan, Lalapaloosa (1904); TAD myth (April 1930)
>Comments: cc: ASmith1946 at aol.com
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU



>...   "Lollapalooza" is in the RHHDAS as "orig. unkn."  The first citation is
>from George Ade in 1896.  The second citation (a baseball one) is from the
>1898 SPORTING NEWS and "coll. B. Popik."  It's probably here somewhere
>underneath my stuff from Easter Island, or is it mixed in with...
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>---------------------------------------------
>YANIGAN, LALAPALOOSA
>
>    10 April 1904, WASHINGTON POST, pg. S2:
>     _ORIGIN OF "YANIGANS."_
>_Baseball Term Which Applies to the Second Team in Practice._
>Charles Dryden, in Philadelphia North American.
>    With the opening of the annual spring training season the term "Yanigans,"
>as applied to the second team in practice games, bursts into print.  The word
>is used at no other time in the career of the athletes, and the fanatic, no
>doubt, wonders why is a Yanigan.  He must have had an origin.
>    Authorities on baseball trace the term to a native Philadelphian, no other
>than the Hon. Mike Grady, a catcher and orator of renown.  Mike is said to be
>the father of Yanigan, according to Connie Mack and Lave Cross.  These
>historians claim the word was first applied to Philadelphia players, and
>first apepared in the Philadelphia papers ten years ago.
>    In 1894 the Quaker team went into camp at Hampton Roads, Va.  The immortal
>Grady was a member of the party.  The manager placed Mike in charge of the
>also-rans, or second team, and the ease with which the Regulars walloped the
>bitumen out of the dubs inspired Mike to produce a word that lives in the
>language of the game.
>    In the ancient Celtic tongue Yanigan means anything that can be easily
>beaten, like carpets or a soft-boiled egg.  Being a student of the classics,
>Mike was familiar with the word.  He had it stowed away in his mind, but
>never found occasion to spring it until as captain of the second team his
>proud spirit blazed under the sting of constant defeat.
>    So it came about that one balmy afternoon in the spring of 1894, Hampton
>Roads was stirred by the spectacle of Mr. Grady standing in the street in
>front of the Quaker training quarters.  He was swinging his cap and howling,
>"Come on, you Yanigan; come on and get it again!"
>    No one present knew the meaning of the word, but it seemed to fit Grady's
>mood and the case.  The scribes took it up, and from that day to this Yanigan
>has emerged regularly from its hole along about groundhog time to play a
>brief engagement in the public prints.  Soon after April Fool Day the word
>hokes back to its hole to hibernate the better part of another year.
>    Yanigan doesn't spread much ink outside of the Quaker City.  Sometimes the
>St. Louis papers spring it, which fact strengthens the claim made on behalf
>of Grady.  The irresponsible Mike once played in that city, and is now a
>member of the Cardinal team, having been taken on as a special World's Fair
>attraction to play first base and keep the conversation from lagging.
>    Grady is also said to be the author of Lalapaloosa, the meaning of which
>is somewhat obscure, though it sometimes butts into a tight game.  Mike would
>gladly elucidate if gently approached by letter, care of the St. Louis
>Cardinals.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Dec  3 17:58:45 2002
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:58:45 -0800
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.095845.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Michael:

> I would wonder if the trunk/boot difference mirrors the hood/bonnet
> difference (if where people say boot instead of trunk, they also say
> bonnet instead of hood).

"Bonnet" for hood of a car is also supposed to be stereotypically British.
Annne G


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Dec  3 18:15:30 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:15:30 -0600
Subject: Fwd: Re: [19cBB] Re: Yanigan (baseball term)
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.121530.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: "John Thorn" <john at toy-department.com>
>To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>Cc: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at umr.edu>,
>    "George Thompson" <george.thompson at nyu.edu>
>Subject: Re: [19cBB] Re: Yanigan (baseball term)
>Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:23:29 -0500
>
>
>It may be that both Charlie Dryden and the author of the 1898 World story
>centered on Herbert Van Cleef (the armless, legless pitcher) had their
>tongues thrust firmly into their cheeks.
>
>In the end, the pursuit of Con Yannigan and his tribe may prove to be a
>snipe hunt (another baseball spring-training term of misted origin).
>
>john thorn
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at umr.edu>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Cc: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 11:12 AM
>Subject: [19cBB] Re: Yanigan (baseball term)
>
>
>>  First, thanx to Barry for unearthing the 1904 item on "Yanigan."
>>  Also, the 19c Baseball discussion group has had a few messages on
>>  this term (two of which are reproduced below my signoff, plus Barry's
>>  message).
>>
>>  Gerald Cohen
>>  member of American Dialect Society and 19cBB
>
><snip>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Dec  3 18:40:13 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:40:13 -0800
Subject: trunk vs boot
In-Reply-To: <75.380944b.2b1e1265@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.104013.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tuesday, December 3, 2002 8:57 AM -0500 "James A. Landau"
<JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> wrote:

> Wasn't the rear luggage area of a stagecoach known as the "boot" on both
> American and British stagecoaches?  If so, then it appears obvious why the
> British refer to the "boot" of an automobile, and a good question why
> Americans switched to "trunk".
>

> Perhaps Americans a century ago were in the habit of putting belongings in
> footlockers or steamer trunks and lashing them on the back of
> automobiles, oe perhaps early American automobiles had rear luggage
> compartments that resembled steamer trunks.

I remember during my childhood seeing the occasional old car with a trunk
shaped like a steamer trunk.  I don't remember the makes.  In style, they
appeared roughly contemporaneous with the Model A Ford. I'm sure an antique
car buff could identify makes and model years.

Peter Mc.

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Dec  3 19:06:12 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:06:12 -0500
Subject: Teaching American English
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212030226200.1795-100000@bast.u.arizona.edu >
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.140612.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Rudy, I forwarded this to Anne, since I'm in that session with her.  Others
may have done so by now too.  She moved to the U of Michigan just this
year, so the NADS may not have her new e-dress.  I'll copy my reply to her
and Michael too.

Your points are well taken; I'm old enough to remember this history
too.  In fact, a colleague here in another department knows nothing about
linguistics but still raves about a course on AmEng she took from Raven at
Chicago as an undergrad.  Our point at ADS is not to suggest such study is
"new" (or at least it's not my point) but to discuss innovative ways of
presenting variation, esp. for high schoolers and community groups.  I
think for a number of years after the halcyon years you refer to, this
focus was lost, at least in English departments, which turned their
attention to rhetoric and the teaching of SWE, plus maybe a course in the
history of English (which may touch on modern Brit Eng vs. "general" Am Eng
at best and probably goes in one ear and out the other).  Linguistics
departments (ours included) may have had such undergrad courses all
along.  But Education schools, which prepare the bulk of public school
teachers, are not at all interested in language variation, as far as I
know; their students are typically prescriptive Miss Fidditches, even after
they (reluctantly) take a sometimes required intro. to linguistics
course.  In Ohio, only upper primary (grades 4-6) teacher trainees now have
to take this course, and they usually wait until senior year to do
so.  Also, the course covers a little bit of everything, with only one or
two weeks devoted to AmEng variation, alas.

You've now helped me think through part of my presentation at ADS!

At 02:34 AM 12/3/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>(I am sending this to the list for general information, and with the hope
>that it might somehow get forwarded to Michael Adams and Anne Curzan, the
>latter of whom is noted in the latest NADS as chairing the session on
>Teaching Varieties of English in America at the upcoming ADS meeting. The
>e-addresses given for both in the Directory of Members [which is titled
>for 2001 -- a typo?] bounced when I tried to send the note to them.
>Perhaps some of the old-timers on the list can add some corroborating or
>additional information.) -- RCT
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Anne,
>
>         I was interested to see in the latest NADS that you and Michael
>Adams are noting in a special JEL issue that American English has only
>recently become a subject of study in American classrooms, and that you
>are chairing a panel at the ADS meeting this year. I can't be present, but
>thought I would pass along to you a historical note that you might
>represent at the meeting (and if you are writing any more on this topic).
>
>         I took a course on American English at the Linguistic Institute at
>the University of Chicago in 1954, taught by Mitford Mathews. I don't know
>whether this was a regular course, or one arranged just for the Institute.
>It was a graduate course, and I also don't know whether he regularly
>taught an undergrad version. But the UC press did put out a book of
>readings edited by him that probably represented a selection that could be
>used in an undergrad course. I don't know what courses Raven McDavid
>taught at UC, but I would be surprised if he did not regularly offer such
>a course either at the graduate or undergraduate level. Bagby Atwood also
>offered a graduate course on dialectology in the 1950s at the University
>of Texas (now -Austin), which mainly concerned American English, but there
>was nothing formally offered at the undergrad level. However, we always
>included something on this in our English grammar course at UT, which must
>have been fairly common, as witness McDavid's appendix to Nelson Francis'
>Structure of American English.
>
>         Also, during the halcyon days of linguistics in the public school
>curriculum in the 1960s, when Harold Allen and Albert Marckwardt were
>presidents of NCTE, and NDEA summer institutes abounded, there was a lot
>of emphasis on this subject in school textbooks, and the Texas Education
>Agency even required (thanks to efforts by some of my good friends like
>Mary Galvan, later president of TESOL) that English textbooks include
>recognition of linguistic variation in American English (this was before
>the conservative counter-revolution that took Texas, and the US, back to
>the 1930s).
>
>         During this period, materials and texts for college classes were
>also being published, most of which subsequently went out of print. So I
>suspect that the current interest can be regarded as a resurgence, rather
>than a recent phenomenon. Here at the University of Arizona, I regularly
>teach an undergrad/grad course on American English, as part of our
>undergraduate concentration in English linguistics (which I suspect is
>rare among English departments -- it would be interesting to know how
>many universities have such a concentration; in fact, our department
>recently overwhelmingly approved a requirement of a course on
>language/linguistics for all undergraduate English majors). We also have
>a separate undergraduate course in English sociolinguistics.
>
>         Good luck with it all,
>
>         Rudy Troike


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Dec  3 21:15:07 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:15:07 EST
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.161507.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's about time to remind ourselves that there's always DARE
whose very first volume has "boot" n 2 "the trunk of a car": citations from
Wisconsin, Kentucky, Georgia. Not the exact locations of our recent postings,
but the same sort of thinly scattered evidence.
- Allan Metcalf


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Dec  3 21:32:30 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:32:30 -0500
Subject: spring training
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.163230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Pitchers and catchers will be reporting before long -- well, ok, in 8 or 10 weeks, but it is never too soon to start thinking about baseball.

The earliest citation in the OED for "spring training" in a baseball context is from 1897.  Dickson's Baseball Dictionary doesn't have anything as early.
spring, n.1 7a
1897 Sporting News 27 Mar. 5/3, I am on my way to join the Boston team at Savannah where the players have all been ordered to report for *spring training. 1928 G. H. RUTH Babe Ruth's Own Book of Baseball i. 17 In 1925 when I collapsed in Asheville, during the spring training trip, a lot of people figured I'd never put on a uniform again. 1976 National Observer (U.S.) 12 June 14/3 Randolph was hardly awed at becoming a Yankee... I came to spring training looking for a job.
It has the phrase "spring training" from 1845, referring to militia training, from an apparently English source.
training, vbl. n. 2b  spec. Military drill; esp. in former use, a public meeting or muster at a stated time for drill of militia and volunteer forces; subsequently much used for the periodical camp work of the Territorials
1845 S. JUDD Margaret I. xv, Hash,..at the Spring training, was punished..for disorderly behaviour.

Here is a very early example of the phrase, in a cock-fighting context.
     Escaped from the Cock-pit in Liberty-st. while moving yesterday, three bantam Seriagapatam breed, and an English rooster, their feathers plucked, gaffs on -- the rooster's right eye a little punished -- bantams plump for spring training.
     New-York National Advocate, May 3, 1825, p. 2, col. 2

Presumably, the origin of the phrase was in militia training.  Would a fighting cock be put through anything that would likely be called "spring training"?  As you'uns all know, baseball was played in NYC in 1823, but still, I doubt that the organized association of manly and athletic young men who played the game then would have taken "spring training".  Still, it's interesting to see the phrase from so early, and in a sporting context.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec  3 22:04:57 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 17:04:57 -0500
Subject: spring training
In-Reply-To: <1f0e771efa66.1efa661f0e77@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.170457.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, George Thompson wrote:

> 1897 Sporting News 27 Mar. 5/3, I am on my way to join the Boston team
> at Savannah where the players have all been ordered to report for
> *spring training.

I was the one who contributed that quotation to the OED Supplement.
There's a slightly earlier baseball usage in the New York Times:

1897 _N.Y. Times_ 20 Mar. 3 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers)  The
representatives of the New York Baseball Club were put through their usual
course of Spring training today under the watchful eye of Capt. Joyce, but
under cover.

Probably the Washington Post used this in 1896. Barry?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Dec  4 02:08:58 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:08:58 -0500
Subject: another dialect-related student query
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.210858.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

...from a different student than the one who was wondering about
research on the pin/pen neutralization and the explanation of where
and why we find "git" for "get".  (Anything on that?)

This other student was wondering where she should look for research
on restricted,
technical registers of English ("Boeing English", "scientific
English").  Has anyone worked (or seen work) on these proposals, or
come across papers, manuals, and other relevant data on these
technical registers?  (I recall something called "Basic English", but
I'm not sure that's the same idea.)

--larry


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Wed Dec  4 02:51:46 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:51:46 -0500
Subject: another dialect-related student query
In-Reply-To: <p04320406ba13125c1e7a@[130.132.245.143]>
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.215146.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry,

Have your student look into the English for Specific Purposes (ESP)
literature.  There's also a journal by that name.

Herb



...from a different student than the one who was wondering about
research on the pin/pen neutralization and the explanation of where
and why we find "git" for "get".  (Anything on that?)

This other student was wondering where she should look for research
on restricted,
technical registers of English ("Boeing English", "scientific
English").  Has anyone worked (or seen work) on these proposals, or
come across papers, manuals, and other relevant data on these
technical registers?  (I recall something called "Basic English", but
I'm not sure that's the same idea.)

--larry


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Dec  4 03:04:23 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 22:04:23 EST
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.220423.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Talking with a smart student tonight, I mentioned "touch typing" and she
asked What's that? I explained it was typing using all of your fingers,
without looking, what you learn in a typing class. To her, that was just
"typing." Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
typing" with?

- Allan Metcalf


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Dec  4 03:15:18 2002
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:15:18 -0800
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.191518.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

allan metcalf asks:
 >Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
 >typing" with?

not entirely true.  i am such a two-fingered typist.  but then i'm
pretty old.

where and when do people learn touch-typing these days?  it does
seem to be pretty much universal among college kids in the u.s.
or at least the ones i see.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Dec  4 03:42:44 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:42:44 -0600
Subject: another dialect-related student query
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.214244.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

-----Original Message-----
From:   Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU]
Sent:   Tue 12/3/2002 8:08 PM
To:     ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Cc:	
Subject:             another dialect-related student query

...from a different student than the one who was wondering about
research on the pin/pen neutralization and the explanation of where
and why we find "git" for "get".  (Anything on that?)

----
I don't remember the specifics of the earlier query but here's something.

The pin/pen merger associated with the South is said to be a 19th century development. Its current distribution can be examined at Labov's Telsur site. A couple of citations for the historical developments:

Brown, Vivian R. 1991 Evolution of the merger of /I/ and /E/ before nasals in
Tennessee. American Speech 66: 303–315.

Bailey, Guy 1997 When did Southern English begin? In: Edgar W. Schneider (ed.),
Englishes Around the World. Volume 1: General Studies, British Isles, North America. Studies in Honour of Manfred Görlach, 255–275. (Varieties of English around the World, General Series 18.) Amsterdam/Philadelphia: John Benjamins.

For a deeper historical perspective, have a look at Krapp's _The English Language in America_ vol. 2, pp. 98ff
Krapp suggests that both the prenasal raising and the raising in 'get' are Irish-English features. He shows lots of examples from colonial American records suggesting [I] in, e.g., "meadows", "held", "red" etc.  Interestingly he suggests that Ben Franklin had [I] in 'friend' and 'get'. 

(Larry, please forward to your student whose email I can't find).


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Dec  4 06:02:38 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:02:38 EST
Subject: Falaqa & Shabah (Iraqi tortures)
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.010238.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The 3 December 2002 NEW YORK POST, pg. 5, had a box on "Saddam's methods
of torture."  One is:

_FALAQA:_  Victims forced to lie face down and are beaten on the soles of
feet with a cable.

   A web search for this term also provides "shabah" or "shabeh," which is
enlonged sitting or standing in a painful position.
   There are many Google hits for "falaqa" and "shabah," but neither is in
the OED (unless I'm looking under the wrong spelling).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------

(O.T.  December 4th's WORDSPY "Words About Words" author is Erin McKean.
November 29th's Word Spy "Word of the Day" was credited to the ADS-L's
Laurence Horn--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Dec  4 09:40:58 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 04:40:58 EST
Subject: Surgical Strike (1968); Martini Lunch (1959); Ballpark Figure
 (1964)
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.044058.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   A few political terms I plugged into the WASHINGTON POST full text
database yesterday.  It's 3 a.m., but I just had a six-hour nap, so here
goes.
   The VILLAGE VOICE likes to be "politically correct." but why not just be
correct?  The latest issue is out, and there is still no correction to its
statement that "nutty as a fruitcake" was coined in 1935.  Ah, nothing
changes for me.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SURGICAL STRIKE

    It was believed that the 1981 Israeli strike against Iraq coined this
term, but it was first used for Vietnam.

   14 April 1968, WASHINGTON POST, pg. B1:
   As a further influence on policy makers I would cite the factor of
_bureaucratic detachment_.  By this I mean what at best might be termed the
professional callousness of the surgeon (and, indeed, medical lingo--the
"surgical strike" for instance--seemed to crop up in the euphemisms of the
times).
   In Washington, the semantics of the military muted the reality of war for
the civilian policy makers.  In quiet, air-conditioned, thick-carpeted rooms,
such terms as "systematic pressure," "armed reconnaisance," "targets of
opportunity" and even "body count" seemed to breed a sort of games-theory
detachment.

   19 January 1969, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 193:
   They urged not air raids on the missile sites but, for purposes of
scholarly gloss, a "surgical strike."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MARTINI LUNCH

   O.T.: In my "pretzel" letter food posting about the 90th anniversary of
the pretzel, I left off the date of the letter (May 12, 1951).

   25 October 1959, WASHINGTON POST, pg. C14:
_Yoga Expert Copes_
_With Martini Lunch_
   COPENHAGEN (UPI) Copenhagen business has run smack up against the problem
of those "three too many" martinis or acquavits at executive luncheons--and
has decided to do something about it.

   14 August 1960, WASHINGTON POST, pg. B11:
   Has any other city in the world developed the four-martini lunch to such a
wonderfully insane, totally human degree?
("Old Pluperfect On the Hudson," or New York City, is the title of the
story--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SOUFFLE RISE TWICE

   I don't know what Fred Shapiro has cooking on this.

   16 December 1955, WASHINGTON POST, George Sokolsky column, pg. 21
   It has been repeated that Alice Longworth, the most intelligent of living
Roosevelts, once said of Thomas E. Dewey, "who ever saw a souffle rise
twice?"  I did not verify the remark because it is too good to question.  it
can apply as well to Adlai Stevenson.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BALLPARK FIGURE

   17 May 1964, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A1:
   Yesterday, Administration officials called this a "ball park figure never
considered binding."  But they did draw attention to McNamara's White House
press conference on Thursday.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
FOGGY BOTTOM

   26 April 1883, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 4:
   He would take Anderson's heart to Foggy Bottom that night.

   15 January 1928, WASHINGTON POST, pg. SM10:
_Picturesque Names_
   _Identified Sections_
_"Murder Bay," "Hell's Bottom"_
   _and "Bloodfield," Part of_
   _Nomenclature._
(...)
   Another tough place was "Herring Hill" in Georgetwon.  It overhung Rock
Creek Valley.  "Foggy Bottom," a region whose center would be perhaps
Twenty-second and E streets northwest, and "Pipetown," east of Eleventh
street southeast, and north of the Eastern Branch, made famous by John Philip
Sousa's novel, "Pipetown Sandy," are names that have now become as extinct as
"Bloodfield," in South Washington.

("Foggy Bottom" is extinct?  You never know when someone will revive a word
or phrase or name--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BETTER RED THAN DEAD & BETTER DEAD THAN RED

   12 July 1961, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A17:
   It was no accident that he chose to aim his crudest menaces at the British
Ambassador, in whose country the sentiment, "better Red than dead," has
gained wider currency than elsewhere in the West.
(I don't have TIMES OF LONDON full text from my home computer to check
now--ed.)

   18 October 1961, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A17:
_These Days_
_Better Dead Than Red_
(...)
   As an example take the motto, "Better Dead than Red," now beginning to
crop up on bumper stickers.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
JOHN Q. PUBLIC

   I'd found this in the 1920s, in a sports column.

   2 January 1930, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 1:
   ...it was 12:30 o'clock before the President could take time out to grab a
sandwich and a cup of coffeeand be back on the line to start greeting Mr. and
Mrs. John Q. Public promptly at 1 o'clock.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
NERVOUS NELLIE

   The RHHDAS has "orig. in derisive ref. to Frank B. Kellogg, Secretary of
State 1925-29."  Cites are 1926, then 1944.  There's no early hit here,
unless I missed it.

   12 December 1937, WASHINGTON POST, pg. B2:
   And "Nervous Nellie" Kellogg, Nobel Prize winner, able and spindly-legged.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
THINK TANK

   Not the RAND version, but two early ones.   OED has 1905?

   19 August 1890, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 4:
   The Omaha _World-Herald_, referring to the newspaper men in attendance
upon the recent Democratic convention in Nebraska, calls them the "big think
tanks" of the State.  The word "think" in this connection suggests the
possibility of a typographical error on the part of an esteemed compositor.

   13 August 1895, WASHINGTON POST, Baseball Notes, pg. 6:
   Outfielder Anderson is something of a disappointment to the Brooklyn
management.  He is a fine sticker, but lacks a balance wheel in his "think
tank."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT

   23 December 1976, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A11:
_Budget-Boss Lance: "If It_
_Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It"_

----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
MOVING THE GOAL POSTS

   4 February 1978, WASHINGTON POST, pg. C12:
   "They keep moving the goal posts," he lamented.  "We're not afraid of
deregulation, though, " he said, "if they really took off all the wraps."
(Albert V. Casey, chairman and president of American Airlines--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
EDIFICE COMPLEX

   There's also a 1957 hit, but I like this cite.

   12 August 1959, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A12:
_Edifice Complex_
   "Yes, this building has a great deal of taste," Frank Lloyd Wright once
remarked blandly while inspecting a new structure, "but all of it is bad."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
GLASS CEILING

   This was 1986-1998.  Just the citation is given,  without a photo of the
page.
   "The Different Natures and Needs of Women" by Norman Podhoretz, WASHINGTON
POST, 20 August 1986, pg. A19.
   OED has 1984, but perhaps Podhoretz got a quote from the person who coined
it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MEANWHILE, BACK AT THE RANCH

   That's it?  A few months better than the NEW YORK TIMES in 1956?  LOS
ANGELES TIMES full text, please help!

   5 April 1956, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 53:
   Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Nats were on a treadmill.


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Dec  4 10:23:21 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:23:21 -0500
Subject: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.052321.0500.>

Allan M said:

>>
Talking with a smart student tonight, I mentioned "touch typing" and she
asked What's that? I explained it was typing using all of your fingers,
without looking, what you learn in a typing class. To her, that was just
"typing." Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
typing" with?
<<

I would say that this is evidence that the term is generational and perhaps
fading, so maybe to be labeled "older" or even "obsolescent".  But I and
millions of others have it in our passive vocabulary, at least.  I remember
touch typing courses and books, from the 50s and 60s.  In my high school
(all boys) a typing class was required (I graduated in 1969).

More evidence would be needed to nail down the status of this term.  But
this is a telling incident you're telling us, Allan.  Same kind of thing is
happening re dial telephones (and the word "dial" re use of telephones),
glass milk bottles (now in antique stores here, though still in daily use in
the UK), inkwells, and other such once-familiar aspects of our society, now
fading or moribund.  Typewriters may soon join that list, but I still see
them here and there, and there are some die-hard users of manual typewriters
around.  One can still buy typewriter ribbons, maybe even at Staples, or Wal
Mart.

Frank Abate


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Dec  4 10:10:13 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:10:13 -0500
Subject: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.051013.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Frank (and all):

I just googled "touch typing" and received 31,000 hits (ouch!).

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Dec  4 11:40:37 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:40:37 -0500
Subject: FW: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.064037.0500.>

David B noted:

>>
I just googled "touch typing" and received 31,000 hits (ouch!).
<<

Seems like the term does not need a label in any dict, unless someone uses
an "older generations" label -- and then only maybe.

Frank Abate


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Dec  4 11:41:25 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:41:25 EST
Subject: Spring Training (1896); Hidden Ball Trick (1896);Holy Cow!
 (1923);Slud (1948)
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.064125.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Some baseball terms, checked with WASHINGTON POST full text.  Gerald Cohen
can re-post this if he wants.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SPRING TRAINING

   22 March 1896, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8:
   Why, Southern trips became a fad with major League managers in the spring
training of the Orioles in 1894.  These Southern trips have been more or less
popular among clubs of the major League and the old American Association for
the past seven years.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
HIDDEN BALL TRICK

   Paul Dickson has 1908.

   29 April 1896, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 4:
   His masterly work in the field resulted in team work for the Senators that
made the Orioles appear as a lot of the veriest amateurs, the hidden ball
trick and a rush home from third by Abbey when Pond was off his guard being
among the clever points gained.

   29 June 1902, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 9:
   In no previous season within the past five years has the "hidden ball
trick" been worked so frequently as this.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BALL ORCHARD

   31 March 1907, WASHINGTON POST, pg. D4:
   Ball orchards are the favorite breeding places of green-eyed monsters.
(From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
HOLY COW!

   The RHHDAS has 1934 for "Holy cow!"  It's not used in a baseball setting
here.

   11 March 1923, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 92:
THE POTTERS  by J. P. McENVOY
(...)
BILL:  Bacon and eggs and toast and Jav'--
   Gosh, it's always the same old chow!
PA:  What if it is?
BILL:  O, holy cow!
   I'm sick of bacon and tired of eggs!
MAMIE:  Give him some ficassed humming bird legs,
   Or butterfly ankles...
PA:  Or oyster's knees.
   Too bad about you and your bacon...
MA:  Please!
   How many times do you have to be told?
   Eat your vittles before they're cold!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
SLUD

   11 February 1948, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 20:
_They're Taking Dizzy's_
_Microphone Away Again_
(...)
   Now it looks again like the good people of St. Louis no longer will hear
such informative phrases as "he slud into third" and "he throwed him out at
home."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SPIT BALL

   Dickson has 1905.

   1 November 1903, WASHINGTON POST, pg. TP10:
   A dispatch from Chicago says:  Local baseball players and incoming
professionals have one topic of conversation now, and that is the nerew ball
the California pitchers are bringing back with them.  Among this lot is
"Skel" Roach, who has it down to a science.  It is said that every pitcher,
big and little, is working on it, and before long there will be fifty, at
least, who will have mastered the mysterious "drop."  It is called the
"spitball," from the fact that the pitcher moistens his pitching forefinger
just before delivering the ball.  This act in some way takes from the ball
all the twist, which, ordinarily, gives the ball its curve near the plate.

   30 August 1904, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8:
   "The high-sky pitchers with spit balls, armories in left field, gas tanks
in center field, close fences in right field, cigar box parks, and foxy
managers make it a hard place for old-timers."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
HIT FOR THE CYCLE

   27 September 1933, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 18:
   Jimmy Foxx, Athletic's slugger, is one of only six players in all major
league history to "hit for the cycle," that is, get a single, double, triple
and homer in four times at bat in one game.

(It's also applied to one game, regardless of four or more times at bat--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
GOPHER

   Paul Dickson has 1932.

   22 March 1930, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 13:
   "What's a gopher ball?" queried Dick.
   "It's hard to explain what it is, but I can give illustrations.  Every
time I pitched it I heard the fellows on the other teams yelling, 'Go for
two!  Go for three!'"
(Dick Coffman of the St. Louis Browns and "a big league pitcher"--ed.)

   14 April 1931, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 17:
_"Gopher" Hurler_
_Back With Yanks_
(...)
   Shortly after he (Vernon Gomex--ed.) joined the club a gag grew up about
his celebrated "gopher ball."
   When he threw his "gopher ball," Gomez explained, base-line coaches of
opposing teams invariably bellowed to the batter, "Go-fer three."
   The joke was quite funny,  but it soon developed that it contained too
much truth.  Gomez wound up the season hurling for St. Paul, in the American
Association.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
RELIEF PITCHER

   Dickson has 1914.

   1 July 1906, WASHINGTON  POST, pg. S1:
   In three consecutive games Connie Mack used Big Chief Bender as a relief
pitcher.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
FIREMAN

   A relief pitcher.  Dickson has 1939, citing Barry Popik.

   13 August 1948, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 14:
   Mace "Fireman" Brown, only other Pirate pitcher who has won ten or more
games, failed to put out the conflagration and Chicago added three more runs
in the ninth.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
GRAND SLAM

   22 April 1929, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 11:
   ...for the same reason that the homer, since the manufacturers socialized
the grand slam is all too often wasted in defeat.
(Not a bases-loaded homer, but just a homer--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BALTIMORE CHOP

   Dickson has 1910.

   20 July 1907, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8:
   In the seventh, when the almost-run occurred, Hinchman broke loose with a
single that bounded over Altizer's head.  The revival of the ancient
Baltimore chop was appreciated.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
BALTIMORE FAREWELL

   Dickson has 1954-1955.

   6 September 1957, WASHINGTON POST, pg. D2:
   The Orioles introduced something new into baseball with the famed
"Baltimore farewll."  This is a particularly unsympathetic gesture to a
pitcher who has just had his ears pinned back and it's never been fully
appreciated by a visiting club.  The Baltimore farewell consists of everyone
in the stands waving handkerchiefs and it's the subtlety of the thing which
leaves visiting pitchers muttering to themselves.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SOPHOMORE JINX & GO TO TOWN

   7 April 1938, WASHINGTON POST, pg. X28:
  Will DiMaggio, who escaped the sophomore jinx, add playing-season
difficulties to his holdout troubles?
  (...)(Pg. 29--ed.)
   They have some backs that can really "go to town."
(Football running backs--ed.)

--------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------
DREAM TEAM

   The "Dream Game" was held in 1934, according to Dickson.

   14 December 1934, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 26:
_"Dream Team" Assembled For East; Coach Hanley Jubilant Over Material for
All-Star Fray on Coast._

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SUBWAY SERIES

   4 July 1934, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 13:
   NEW YORK, July 3 (AP)--Proponents of the "subway series" this fall between
the Yankees and the Giants for the world baseball championship may enjoy
something of a pre-view when the all-star teams of the National and American
League battle in gilt-edged formation next Tuesday at the Polo Grounds.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
YANKEES

   Another team had the nickname before New York.  Again, you'll never know
any of this from anything associated with the Yankees' 100th anniversary
celebrations this year.  The below is from Lexington, Virginia.

   10 May 1903, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 9:
   The Lafayetts defeated the Yankees, who consisted of a few substitutes off
the Technicals, by the score of 9 to 7.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Dec  4 11:55:18 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:55:18 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <200212040315.gB43FIA12345@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.065518.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I too am digitally challenged in the typing world (although I note an
occasional semiconscious activation of the digit "4" - right hand
only - for the "right arrow" key, seldom paralleled by "4" on the
left hand for "Tab," Caps Lock," and "Shift" which would seem
reasonable), and I am also of arnold's generation, with even slightly
greater length to my tooth, but arnold did give a "pretty" hedge to
his "old."

dInIs


allan metcalf asks:
  >Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
  >typing" with?

not entirely true.  i am such a two-fingered typist.  but then i'm
pretty old.

where and when do people learn touch-typing these days?  it does
seem to be pretty much universal among college kids in the u.s.
or at least the ones i see.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From sylvar at VAXER.NET  Wed Dec  4 12:31:49 2002
From: sylvar at VAXER.NET (Ben Ostrowsky)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 04:31:49 -0800
Subject: Falaqa & Shabah (Iraqi tortures)
In-Reply-To: <fb.3180fbfe.2b1ef47e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.043149.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> _FALAQA:_  Victims forced to lie face down and are beaten on the soles of
> feet with a cable.

Sounds like bastinado.  Speaking of which:

http://www.steel-door.com/bastinado.htm

"Falaq, Falanga, Falaka, Fallagas: all appear to be variants of the same
word which is used in mid-eastern cultures to refer to a small crop like
weapon which is approximately 18" in length, with a hardened inner shaft,
the outside made of leather either braided or wound around the 'cane'. The
word/s by extension becomes the practice of using this weapon to inflict
punishment to the soles of the feet."

Ben


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Wed Dec  4 14:13:15 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:13:15 -0800
Subject: Falaqa
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.40.0212040428580.22192-100000@maple.vaxer.net>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.061315.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More generic than just "falaqa", actually.  Why do we
use "q" instead of "k" in rendering Arabic into
English?  Why Qatar, which I've heard pronounced on
the BBC news as more like "gutar" or even "gutter",
instead of Katar?  The sound in Arabic is presumably
distinct from the English "k" sound, but it usually
becomes simply "k" in English, whether the "q" or "k"
is used to represent it.  If it's closer to "g" than
"k", why not use the "g"?  Why this seeming
affectation for "q" in English rendering or borrowing
of Arabic?


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Dec  4 14:28:27 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:28:27 -0500
Subject: Which and Falaqa
In-Reply-To: <20021204141315.28591.qmail@web9705.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.092827.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Why the affectation of "wh" in "who," "why," "which," whether,"
etc...? Why the affectation of "oe" in Goethe? Are all spellings
which do not phonemically represent English (leaving the question
which English aside since Michigan English is obviously to be
preferred) pronunciations affectations?

dInIs



>More generic than just "falaqa", actually.  Why do we
>use "q" instead of "k" in rendering Arabic into
>English?  Why Qatar, which I've heard pronounced on
>the BBC news as more like "gutar" or even "gutter",
>instead of Katar?  The sound in Arabic is presumably
>distinct from the English "k" sound, but it usually
>becomes simply "k" in English, whether the "q" or "k"
>is used to represent it.  If it's closer to "g" than
>"k", why not use the "g"?  Why this seeming
>affectation for "q" in English rendering or borrowing
>of Arabic?
>
>
>=====
>James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
>South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
>jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
>                                |or slowly and cautiously.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Dec  4 14:27:49 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:27:49 -0500
Subject: "Derivation" Board Game
In-Reply-To: <a05010401ba139c611c77@[35.12.19.52]>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.092749.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Don't remember seeing this mentioned and I checked the archives - so, for
anyone who's interested...

Microsoft retiree turned game maker found
                     that clichés kept springing to mind

                     By Brier Dudley
                     Seattle Times technology reporter

                     For Brad Chase, a high-profile Microsoft
                     executive who left the company last year,
                     retirement has been fun and games,
                     literally.

                     The man who orchestrated the launch of
                     Windows 95 and ran MSN is launching his
                     own product today, a board game called
                     Derivation that will be sold in part to raise
                     money for charities. The launch comes the
                     same day his former baby, MSN, kicks off
                     its latest version.

                     Chase, 42, first came to Microsoft in 1987
                     and was one of a string of high-ranking
                     executives who have left in recent years. In
                     1999, he testified for the company in its
                     federal antitrust trial.

                     He said he considered working for another
                     company or teaching. Instead he's
                     spending much of his time developing and
                     marketing the game out of his Mercer
                     Island home.

                     An organized person who favors using
                     motivational goals, Chase had decided that
                     his priorities in retirement were fun, flexibility,
family and philanthropy — "the f
                     sounds," he said.

                     "As I worked on this game, I realized it was
fulfilling everything I wanted," he
                     said.

                     At least 25 percent of after-tax profits from the
$29.95 game will be donated to
                     charities, including Mercer Island-based Teachers
Without Borders and the
                     national Reading is Fundamental program. Chase said
he'll donate to the
                     charities no matter how the game fares.

                     Inspiration struck at a barbecue in the summer of
2001. He noticed the language
                     he and his friends were using was littered with common
phrases — some would
                     say clichés — including "cart before the horse" and
"happy as a clam." He
                     began wondering where the phrases came from, and
decided that had the
                     makings of a game.

                     Derivation comes with cards with hundreds of phrases,
words and quotes and
                     their origins. Players advance by correctly guessing
the origins, or by making up
                     origins and bluffing other players into believing they
are true.

                     Players may also progress by drawing pictures or
acting out origins that are
                     correctly guessed by other players.

                     Chase started too late to get widespread distribution
for this holiday season but
                     the game will be available at various Seattle-area toy
and game stores.

                     It's a tough business to enter, said Gary Teachout,
who is adding Derivation to
                     the roughly 8,000 games at his Gary's Games store in
Greenwood. About 1,500
                     to 2,000 new games are introduced every year and fewer
than 100 remain in
                     business longer than a year, he said.

                     "It's a real brutal business," he said. "The biggest
problem is getting the game
                     to market. Too many people get a great idea for a
game, design the thing, get it
                     made and then when it's stuck in their basement they
have no idea how to get it
                     to market."

                     Teachout said people in the software industry are
particularly drawn to games
                     because their training is in logical, strategic thinking.

                     Having taken some of the most successful software
products in history to
                     market could give Chase an edge. He also has money to
get started and said
                     he has already invested "six figures."

                     Chase developed Derivation using the Office software
he marketed at Microsoft.
                     He started by building spreadsheets of definitions,
word origins and quotes.

                     Once he had the game laid out he hired an old business
associate, the artist
                     who designed the boxes for MS-DOS and Windows 95, to
give the game a
                     professional look.

                     The game is being sold through a company Chase formed
called Entspire —
                     derived from the words entertain and inspire — that is
working on its second
                     venture.

                     Entspire is developing a line of books called "Whitz,"
collections of funny
                     stories. Chase is encouraging people to submit funny
stories, which he will
                     publish and share proceeds with charities.

                     Chase came up with the idea on a trip to New York when
his brother-in-law told
                     him a particularly funny story. Who knows what he'll
come up with next.

                     Brier Dudley: 206-515-5687 or bdudley at seattletimes.com.

                     Copyright © 2002 The Seattle Times Company


From THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU  Wed Dec  4 14:51:42 2002
From: THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:51:42 -0500
Subject: Falaqa
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.095142.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My understanding is that the "q" spelling of Arabic words is used for a
velar stop that is farther back than the one that occurs in English and is
not phonetically conditioned, as is the English "k" sound.  It is also
sometimes transliterated as "g" as it Kaddafi/Qaddafi/Gaddafi.

I'm no authority, but I have been coached by some Arabs.

Thom Harrison

-----Original Message-----
From: James Smith [mailto:jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 9:13 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Falaqa


More generic than just "falaqa", actually.  Why do we
use "q" instead of "k" in rendering Arabic into
English?  Why Qatar, which I've heard pronounced on
the BBC news as more like "gutar" or even "gutter",
instead of Katar?  The sound in Arabic is presumably
distinct from the English "k" sound, but it usually
becomes simply "k" in English, whether the "q" or "k"
is used to represent it.  If it's closer to "g" than
"k", why not use the "g"?  Why this seeming
affectation for "q" in English rendering or borrowing
of Arabic?


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From damiller at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU  Wed Dec  4 16:13:27 2002
From: damiller at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (David Miller)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:13:27 -0500
Subject: Linguistic Study at LDC
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.111327.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greetings,

The Linguistic Data Consortium at the University of Pennsylvania
(www.ldc.upenn.edu) needs participants for FISHER, a new telephone speech
study to be conducted in the Early Winter 2002-2003.  In contrast to prior
regional studies (Switchboard), FISHER will be national (North America).
The FISHER project will be undertaken to support linguistic research,
technology development and education.  All calls will be recorded for these
purposes.  Particpant Identities will be kept strictly confidential and not
released with the data.

FISHER participants will take part in 1 to 3 telephone calls talking to
other participants on suggested topics for ten minutes.  FISHER topics can
be found at the URL below:

http://www.ldc.upenn.edu/Projects/EARS/Fisher/topics.html

A robot operator will initiate all calls. Particpants need only answer
their phones at the time they specify during the registration process.

Participants will be compensated $10 per call.  In addition, for each call
made, participants will be eligble for 1 chance at (3) $1000.00 lottery
prizes.

To register for this study please see the following page:

http://www.ldc.upenn.edu/Projects/EARS/Fisher/intro.html

or call 1 800 380 PENN, to register and for more information

Sincerely,

Dr. David Miller
FISHER Project Manager

--
David Miller                             Linguistic Data Consortium
(215) 573-9458                         3600 Market Street - Ste. 810
damiller at ldc.upenn.edu                         Philadelphia, PA 19104


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Dec  4 16:34:03 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:34:03 -0800
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <1a7.cfde91d.2b1ecab7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.083403.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I was on the admissions committee here I noticed that lots of
students were taking a HS class called "keyboarding," so I guess that's
what's become of "touch typing"--unless "keyboarding" is now applied only
to the quasi-musical instrument.

I'd guess that increased use of the web by even little kids has spawned a
whole generation of touch typists. A parallel is found in those of
lightning thumb, the proficient cell phone dialers; there have been some
articles recently in the NYT about them, including, I think, a contest in
Japan to see who could enter a string of something like 100 numbers the
fastest--or who could enter the most numbers in a given time.  This would
be the modern equivalent of the old wpm (words per minute) test that
secretaries had to pass.

Incidentally, "touch typing" is known in German as "10 Finger blind,"
although in normal touch typing the left thumb is never used. Just why
it's not "9 Finger blind" has always escaped me; but then most things have
escaped me over the years...

Peter R.

On Tue, 3 Dec 2002 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:

> Talking with a smart student tonight, I mentioned "touch typing" and she


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Dec  4 17:36:33 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:36:33 -0800
Subject: Falaqa & Shabah (Iraqi tortures)
In-Reply-To: <fb.3180fbfe.2b1ef47e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.093633.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

These are not unique to Saddam or to Iraq. The basic definition of
"falaqah" from Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon (1863-93) is "a thick staff
to the ends of which are attached the two ends of a rope, by means whereof
a man's legs are secured, between the rope and the staff, when he is
bastinaded." Wehr Dictionary of modern written Arabic (4th ed.) gives the
less wordy "a device for holding the legs of the delinquent during the
bastinado".
Also from Lane, shaba[dot below]h v. "extend or stretch (it or him)
between pegs or stakes ... [to stretch] a man between two things to be
flogged" shaba[dot below]hah by extension, the stakes themselves.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    The 3 December 2002 NEW YORK POST, pg. 5, had a box on "Saddam's methods
> of torture."  One is:
>
> _FALAQA:_  Victims forced to lie face down and are beaten on the soles of
> feet with a cable.
>
>    A web search for this term also provides "shabah" or "shabeh," which is
> enlonged sitting or standing in a painful position.
>    There are many Google hits for "falaqa" and "shabah," but neither is in
> the OED (unless I'm looking under the wrong spelling).
>


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Dec  4 17:43:17 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:43:17 -0800
Subject: break a leg, again
In-Reply-To: <a05010402ba13c0fcb183@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.094317.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Recent discussion of the provenance of "break a leg" led me to Lutz
Roehrich's Lexikon der sprichwoertlichen Redensarten for information about
the German equivalent, "Hals- und Beinbruch". Roehrich maintains--as was
mentioned on this list recently--that the notion of wishing someone the
opposite of what's really meant is, to be sure, firmly anchored in folk
belief but in this case is falsely applied. He derives "Hals- und
Beinbruch" from Hebrew "hazloche un broche" [hazlacha 'good fortune' +
b'racha 'blessing']. It's easy enough to hear through "haz-" and "broche"
to Hals and Bruch. This doesn't help us with "break a leg," but it does, I
think, suggest that we should expect earlier attestations of our own
version to pop up at some point--perhaps in a communication from Barry,
who has flown to London to examine old playbills just for this purpose.

Peter R.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed Dec  4 17:58:13 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:58:13 -0700
Subject: Pen-pen merger
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.105813.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry,

        I also have the merger "stem" and "strength". It was only a few
years ago that I learned that anyone pronounced an /E/ in "friend" (thanks
to Gordon for mentioning that), since I have to rely on spelling to guess
which phoneme differentiators use. (Of course, this sometimes results in a
hyper-form for "English" for some Southerners.) I was listening to a talk
on morphology once by a colleague from New Jersey, and was bothered that
he seemed to have a non-English accent in his pronunciation, so I started
focusing on that, and soon realized that it was the high frequency of the
term "stem", with /E/, that created that impression for me.

        Rudy


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed Dec  4 18:01:51 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:01:51 -0700
Subject: Trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.110151.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What part of Texas was/is "boot" used in? I never heard it in South Texas.

        Rudy


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Dec  4 18:01:23 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:01:23 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <a05010401ba139c611c77@[35.12.19.52]>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.130123.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I wonder if middle and high schools teach typing skills anymore--for the
typewriter or the computer?  It was required in my day, but it may not be
anymore.  I've seen a lot of students use two fingers, though they've
become very fast (my son too).

At 06:55 AM 12/4/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>I too am digitally challenged in the typing world (although I note an
>occasional semiconscious activation of the digit "4" - right hand
>only - for the "right arrow" key, seldom paralleled by "4" on the
>left hand for "Tab," Caps Lock," and "Shift" which would seem
>reasonable), and I am also of arnold's generation, with even slightly
>greater length to my tooth, but arnold did give a "pretty" hedge to
>his "old."
>
>dInIs
>
>
>allan metcalf asks:
>  >Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
>  >typing" with?
>
>not entirely true.  i am such a two-fingered typist.  but then i'm
>pretty old.
>
>where and when do people learn touch-typing these days?  it does
>seem to be pretty much universal among college kids in the u.s.
>or at least the ones i see.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>740 Wells Hall A
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>Office - (517) 353-0740
>Fax - (517) 432-2736


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Dec  4 18:21:03 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:21:03 -0600
Subject: Query: Origin of "How come?"
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.122103.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I've received a query about the origin of the expression "How
come?" as in "How come nobody thought of calling home?"

    I assume "How come?" arose by shortening from "How does/did it
come about that...?" Or am I missing something here?

Gerald Cohen


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Wed Dec  4 18:40:25 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:40:25 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.134025.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Frank Abate writes,

  >> Same kind of thing is happening re dial telephones (and the word
"dial"
  >> re use of telephones), glass milk bottles (now in antique stores here,
  >> though still in daily use in the UK), inkwells...Typewriters may soon
  >> join that list...

Not, I think, the same kind of thing.

Telephones are still very much around; we just (mostly) no longer dial them
(I have one dial instrument left in my house).

Typewriters' numbers, on the other hand, are diminishing (although I've
still got my Correcting Selectric II)--but we still use the same inputting
skill on our computer keyboards. Unlike dialing, it's still done--and
apparently more kids than ever are learning it. With all their fingers.

So what do you call it? The kids, Allan reported, just call it "typing."
Most of the grownups I know do, too. Even though there's no longer *type*
attached to, or moved by, the keys.

--Dodi Schultz


From kf0z at N0RXD.AMPR.ORG  Thu Dec  5 00:29:21 2002
From: kf0z at N0RXD.AMPR.ORG (Jan)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 19:29:21 -0500
Subject: Obsolete Term: Touch typing
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.192921.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I learned in 1959 on a Royal typewriter with blank keys.

Nowadays my kids and my wife's students universally refer to it as "keyboarding"
Touch typing would be taken to be something done by blind persons, I suspect.

--Jan


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Dec  4 19:30:39 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:30:39 -0500
Subject: "dialing" (was Re: Obsolete term: touch typing)
In-Reply-To: <200212041340_MC3-1-1E2D-E0B2@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.143039.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote:

#Telephones are still very much around; we just (mostly) no longer dial
#them (I have one dial instrument left in my house).

I think I still say "dial" a number. Why not?

-- Mark A. Mandel


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Dec  4 19:39:46 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:39:46 -0800
Subject: "dialing" (was Re: Obsolete term: touch typing)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212041430040.77706779-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.113946.0800.>

> #Telephones are still very much around; we just (mostly) no
> longer dial
> #them (I have one dial instrument left in my house).
>
> I think I still say "dial" a number. Why not?

I believe that the original point was that the retronym "dial telephone" and
its counterpart the "touch-tone telephone" are no longer in widespread use.
It has simply gone back to the original "telephone" without modifier. The
verb "to dial" is alive and well, as witnessed by those annoying Carrot-top
"dial down the middle" commercials--which is an interesting phrase in and of
itself.


From AnneR at HKUSA.COM  Wed Dec  4 19:50:32 2002
From: AnneR at HKUSA.COM (Anne Rogers)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:50:32 -0600
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.135032.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There still seem to be a lot of people who use the two-fingered "hunt and
peck" method, which was how my typing teacher in high school referred to it.
She warned us that we'd never type faster than 35-40 wpm if we didn't learn
to touch type -- the benchmark to pass a standard typing test (and the
class) was 55 or 60 wpm, I believe.

I've often wondered if they still teach typing in high school (or earlier?)
because there do seem to be a lot of kids who know how -- or maybe they all
learned on Mavis Beacon software!

Anne Rogers

-----Original Message-----
From: Arnold Zwicky [mailto:zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: Obsolete term: touch typing


allan metcalf asks:
 >Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
 >typing" with?

not entirely true.  i am such a two-fingered typist.  but then i'm
pretty old.

where and when do people learn touch-typing these days?  it does
seem to be pretty much universal among college kids in the u.s.
or at least the ones i see.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Dec  4 19:57:40 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:57:40 -0500
Subject: Query: Origin of "How come?"
In-Reply-To: <p04310101ba13f540a05c@[131.151.65.40]>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.145740.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, I would guess it comes from "How come you to (they to, etc...)"
before do-support took over in English. (Then you don't have to
propose so much funny deletion).

dInIs



   I've received a query about the origin of the expression "How
come?" as in "How come nobody thought of calling home?"

    I assume "How come?" arose by shortening from "How does/did it
come about that...?" Or am I missing something here?

Gerald Cohen

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Dec  4 23:07:56 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:07:56 -0800
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.150756.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Of course they do--it's usually called 'keyboarding.'  The class for many is totally unnecessary, as most students already have had considerable experience typing. When I was in high school--before the Great Age of Computers, virtually no young man took typing.  It was a 'girl thing.'
Fritz

>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 12/04/02 10:01AM >>>
I wonder if middle and high schools teach typing skills anymore--for the
typewriter or the computer?  It was required in my day, but it may not be
anymore.  I've seen a lot of students use two fingers, though they've
become very fast (my son too).

At 06:55 AM 12/4/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>I too am digitally challenged in the typing world (although I note an
>occasional semiconscious activation of the digit "4" - right hand
>only - for the "right arrow" key, seldom paralleled by "4" on the
>left hand for "Tab," Caps Lock," and "Shift" which would seem
>reasonable), and I am also of arnold's generation, with even slightly
>greater length to my tooth, but arnold did give a "pretty" hedge to
>his "old."
>
>dInIs
>
>
>allan metcalf asks:
>  >Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
>  >typing" with?
>
>not entirely true.  i am such a two-fingered typist.  but then i'm
>pretty old.
>
>where and when do people learn touch-typing these days?  it does
>seem to be pretty much universal among college kids in the u.s.
>or at least the ones i see.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>740 Wells Hall A
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>Office - (517) 353-0740
>Fax - (517) 432-2736


From sbmorr01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Wed Dec  4 23:25:38 2002
From: sbmorr01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Stephani Hardin)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:25:38 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.182538.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a remark in
class that has bothered me to this day.  He said, "Some of you in here speak
with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think seriously about
working on changing it if you want to teach English."  I find this to be both
offensive and judgmental.  An accent has no bearing on accepted forms of
speech.  (I use the word 'accepted' rather than 'correct', because on whose
standards do we even judge forms of speech)  To ask someone to change an accent
is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we all, regardless of where we
are from, have one.  This Professor displays a preference for one accent over
another, and he suggests I change something that is a part of who I am.  Why
should I compromise my heritage to suit the standards of someone with
linguistic prejudices?

Stephani Hardin


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec  5 01:52:17 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 20:52:17 -0500
Subject: Brooklyn Eagle online (not until October 2003)
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.205217.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BROOKLYN EAGLE ONLINE--Unfortunately, we'll all have to wait until October 2003.  I'd like at least the EAGLE as a backup to the online NEW YORK TIMES for New York City terms.  See the attached message below...Continuing note to Rupert Murdoch:  How about an online NEW YORK POST?

YANIGAN--The New Castle (PA) Quakers were called Yanigans for the 1899 season.  I'll research the PA newspapers (INQUIRER and PUBLIC LEDGER) for the spring of 1894 and 1895 tomorrow.

BETTER RED/DEAD THAN DEAD/RED--I just checked the online TIMES OF LONDON.  From 14 November 1958, pg. 13, col. F, "The slogan 'better red than dead' has no appeal for him.  "Better dead than red" is the headline in 14 August 1961, pg. 6, col. A.

LEBKUCHEN--Expect a really great 1850 "lebkuchen" tomorrow, from PICTURES OF NUREMBERG.  I had copied half of the recipe when the NYPL closed today.

FECKLESS--Today's NEW YORK SUN uses "feckless" in its editorial about the NEW YORK TIMES.  This comes on the heels of the multiple use of "simulacrum."  One "hegemony" and I've had enough.


Subj:
Brooklyn Eagle Online
  Date:
12/4/2002 5:11:23 PM Eastern Standard Time
  From:
Click here to send a message."Holland, Joy" <J.Holland at BrooklynPublicLibrary.org>
  To:
Click here to send a message."'Bapopik at aol.com'" <Bapopik at aol.com>
  Cc:
Click here to send a message."Benz, Susan" <S.Benz at BrooklynPublicLibrary.org>
  Sent from the Internet (Details)


Dear Mr Popik:
The Eagle Online will not be made widely available to the public until
October 2003. Do you know that the current phase of the project covers only
the years 1841-1902? We do not currently have funding to go beyond that
date.

The product is currently undergoing beta-testing. If you would like to be
one of our testers--which would allow you to have advance access to the
database--please let me know.
Sincerely,
Joy Holland
Project Director
Eagle Online


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Dec  5 01:52:53 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 19:52:53 -0600
Subject: Yanigans--two more items from 19cBB discussion group
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.195253.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Below my signoff are two items on baseball Yanigans sent today to
the 19th Century Baseball discussion group.

Gerald Cohen


To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
From: "marty payne" <martyp at toad.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 17:21:27 -0500
Subject: [19cBB] yanigans


In 1897 the Baltimore Orioles sponsored a team called the Yanigans.
They were composed of the Oriole non roster reserve players and "a
few other choice professionals" from the Baltimore area.  They were
often managed by Wilbert Robinson.  They toured the area playing
against city and rural semi pro teams.  The purpose was to keep their
non roster players sharp in case they were needed.

                                                 Marty Payne


***********


To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
From: "Peter Morris" <moxbib at voyager.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:28:43 -0500
Subject: RE: [19cBB] yanigans
Reply-To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com

In the Grand Rapids (MI) Herald of May 24, 1903, Frank Kitson gave this
explanation of the term's origin: "in 1896 when Ned Hanlon had his old
Baltimore Orioles, we went to Macon, Ga., for our training trip.  Wilbert
Robinson, the chunky Baltimore catcher, was picked by Hanlon to captain the
Colts' team.  That year we had a bunch of youngsters who were very fast, but
Hanlon did not think well of them and the day before the practice there was
all sorts of 'kidding' around the hotel about 'Robbie's' team.  Baltimore
had her old-time team [including John McGraw, 'Wee Willie' Keeler, Hugh
Jennings, Joe Kelley, 'Steve' Brodie, etc.] . . . 'Robbie' had for his
players a bunch of youngsters, seven of whom were either pitchers or
catchers.  I played second base and what we did to the regulars was a
plenty.  We beat them 19 to 4 and that night 'Robbie' was so tickled, the
little old American house in Macon would not hold him.
        "Hanlon naturally was sore and when 'Robbie' came from the
diningroom he
laughingly said to Hanlon: 'You have a h--l of a nice team.  Even my
Yanigans can beat you.'  'What's the Yanigans?' asked Hanlon.  'That's my
kid team in Baltimore,' was the reply. 'They're only 14 years old.' ...
'Y-a-n-i-g-a-n-s - Yanigans,' mused Hanlon.  'Yanigans, that's a pretty good
name for a practice team.'  And from that day to this all the younger
players who work against the regulars during training trips are called
'Yanigans.' "

Peter Morris

>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: marty payne [mailto:martyp at toad.net]
>  Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 5:21 PM
>  To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
>  Subject: [19cBB] yanigans
>
>
>  In 1897 the Baltimore Orioles sponsored a team called the
>  Yanigans.  They were composed of the Oriole non roster reserve
>  players and "a few other choice professionals" from the Baltimore
>  area.  They were often managed by Wilbert Robinson.  They toured
>  the area playing against city and rural semi pro teams.  The
>  purpose was to keep their non roster players sharp in case they
>  were needed.
>
>                                                  Marty Payne
>
>
>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>  In order to unsubscribe, send any message (even a blank) to
>      19cBB-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>


In order to unsubscribe, send any message (even a blank) to
     19cBB-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec  5 02:08:36 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:08:36 -0500
Subject: Pen-pen merger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212041049190.14588-100000@ptah.u.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.210836.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:58 AM -0700 12/4/02, Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>Larry,
>
>         I also have the merger "stem" and "strength". It was only a few
>years ago that I learned that anyone pronounced an /E/ in "friend" (thanks
>to Gordon for mentioning that), since I have to rely on spelling to guess
>which phoneme differentiators use. (Of course, this sometimes results in a
>hyper-form for "English" for some Southerners.) I was listening to a talk
>on morphology once by a colleague from New Jersey, and was bothered that
>he seemed to have a non-English accent in his pronunciation, so I started
>focusing on that, and soon realized that it was the high frequency of the
>term "stem", with /E/, that created that impression for me.
>
>         Rudy

Thanks, Rudy.  (And thanks to Gordon for the previous message.)  I'll
relay these to my student, who I'm sure will be appreciative of the
suggestions, examples, and references.  He actually gave "English"
(the fact that he uses an [I] there) as an instance of the merger in
his own Mississippian variety, and I assured him that we New Yorkers
and other pin/pen distinguishers, also have an [I] in "English".

larry


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Thu Dec  5 02:32:23 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:32:23 -0500
Subject: Query: Origin of "How come?"
In-Reply-To: <a05010406ba140e4fdc3f@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.213223.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In SE Michigan and NW Ohio there is also the variant "How's come ..."
Either this is an analogical development along Gerald's line after the
do-support take-over, or the expession is of more recent origin.  I suspect
the former.

Herb


Well, I would guess it comes from "How come you to (they to, etc...)"
before do-support took over in English. (Then you don't have to
propose so much funny deletion).

dInIs



   I've received a query about the origin of the expression "How
come?" as in "How come nobody thought of calling home?"

    I assume "How come?" arose by shortening from "How does/did it
come about that...?" Or am I missing something here?

Gerald Cohen

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec  5 02:42:14 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:42:14 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <2E8440B99F0D1B4F9D4F3099A3778FB501295575@exchange4.hkusa.com>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.214214.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just consulted with a native informant, my high school senior
daughter, who is in fact about to take "Computer 1a" this spring.
When my son took the identical course a few years ago, it was called
"Keyboarding".  Maybe the confusion with the musical keyboard led to
the name change, but now it sounds as though it ought to cover other
computer skills (using the internet, upgrading your hard drive,
hacking the Pentagon's system, etc.) instead of...well, touch typing.
The same, or a similar, course here used to be called "Word
Processing", she says.  In each case, students are basically learning
what we (or some of us) learned in our Typing classes, including the
format of business letters.  (I even took the New York State Regents
exam in Typing.)  I fondly recall learning to type faster and faster
to the background of Mozart's Turkish Rondo, a practice probably no
longer employed in such courses.  Maybe they use rap now.

As far as "touch typing" goes, she knew what it means although she
doesn't know how to do it yet (of course if she did, there'd be no
point in her taking the class), but she uses all ten fingers while
peeking, which constitutes an intermediate stage.  I know I went
directly from the hunt-and-peck two-finger method to full touch
typing, but then that was back when there was no incentive to type
quickly outside of school (as there is now to send your friends
infinite numbers of instant messages).

And as far as school requirements go, the local high school requires
a "practical arts" course which can be satisfied by
Keyboarding/Computer 1a or by Cooking.  I'm not sure what the other
options are--something in basic electronics, I believe.  And no, the
others aren't categorized as "impractical arts".

larry


At 1:50 PM -0600 12/4/02, Anne Rogers wrote:
>There still seem to be a lot of people who use the two-fingered "hunt and
>peck" method, which was how my typing teacher in high school referred to it.
>She warned us that we'd never type faster than 35-40 wpm if we didn't learn
>to touch type -- the benchmark to pass a standard typing test (and the
>class) was 55 or 60 wpm, I believe.
>
>I've often wondered if they still teach typing in high school (or earlier?)
>because there do seem to be a lot of kids who know how -- or maybe they all
>learned on Mavis Beacon software!
>
>Anne Rogers
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Arnold Zwicky [mailto:zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU]
>Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 9:15 PM
>Subject: Re: Obsolete term: touch typing
>
>
>allan metcalf asks:
>  >Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
>  >typing" with?
>
>not entirely true.  i am such a two-fingered typist.  but then i'm
>pretty old.
>
>where and when do people learn touch-typing these days?  it does
>seem to be pretty much universal among college kids in the u.s.
>or at least the ones i see.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Dec  5 02:42:30 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 20:42:30 -0600
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.204230.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

While I agree with the overall sentiment expressed, I think it's inaccurate (or wishful thinking) to claim that accent has NO bearing on the acceptance of one's speech. I think people are as willing to pass judgment on a person's character, intelligence, etc. based on that person's accent as on his/her/their grammar - at least that's the case with certain accents. 

Nevertheless, such judgments can work both ways. Couldn't it be argued that for a teacher in KY, a local accent might be a benefit? How would students and parents react to someone who comes from KY but sounds like they come from some place like Michigan (which is, of course, the source of the Network English accent; if you don't believe it, just ask the Michiganders.)

-----Original Message-----
From:   Stephani Hardin [mailto:sbmorr01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU]
Sent:   Wed 12/4/2002 5:25 PM
To:     ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Cc:	
Subject:             Teaching With a Kentucky Accent

In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a remark in
class that has bothered me to this day.  He said, "Some of you in here speak
with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think seriously about
working on changing it if you want to teach English."  I find this to be both
offensive and judgmental.  An accent has no bearing on accepted forms of
speech.  (I use the word 'accepted' rather than 'correct', because on whose
standards do we even judge forms of speech)  To ask someone to change an accent
is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we all, regardless of where we
are from, have one.  This Professor displays a preference for one accent over
another, and he suggests I change something that is a part of who I am.  Why
should I compromise my heritage to suit the standards of someone with
linguistic prejudices?

Stephani Hardin


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Dec  5 02:44:59 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 20:44:59 -0600
Subject: Query: Origin of "How come?"
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.204459.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In support of Dennis' suggestion, a quick search on the LION (Literature Online) database shows the form to be fairly common in Early Modern English (before we were burdened with do-support).

-----Original Message-----
From:   Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU]
Sent:   Wed 12/4/2002 1:57 PM
To:     ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Cc:	
Subject:             Re: Query: Origin of "How come?"

Well, I would guess it comes from "How come you to (they to, etc...)"
before do-support took over in English. (Then you don't have to
propose so much funny deletion).

dInIs



   I've received a query about the origin of the expression "How
come?" as in "How come nobody thought of calling home?"

    I assume "How come?" arose by shortening from "How does/did it
come about that...?" Or am I missing something here?

Gerald Cohen

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Thu Dec  5 03:18:23 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 22:18:23 -0500
Subject: "dialing" (was Re: Obsolete term: touch typing)
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.221823.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark Mandel writes,

  >> I think I still say "dial" a number. Why not?

No reason! Did anyone suggest that you mustn't?

--DS


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec  5 03:22:14 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 22:22:14 -0500
Subject: Santa Claus Rally (1969 or 1976); Black Friday (1975)
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.222214.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SANTA CLAUS RALLY

   I had posted previously that "Santa Claus rally" was allegedly coined by Yale Hirsch.  Here's what the online, full text WALL STREET JOURNAL has.

   13 Decemer 1969, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. 52:
   Even without this factor, year-end rallies between Christmas and New Year's have been scarce in recent years.  In the 1970 Stock Trader's ALmanac available at book stores here, Yale Hirsch traces year-end market trends and a wide variety of other statistical trends at various points during the year.

   23 December 1976, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. 19:
   "I think the year-end Santa Claus rally commenced on Tuesday," commented Alfred E. Goldman, vice president of A. G. Edwards & Sons Inc.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
BLACK FRIDAY

   29 November 1975, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 21:
   Philadelphia police and bus drivers call it "Black Friday"--that day each year between Thanksgiving Day and the Army-Navy game.  It is the busiest shopping and traffic day of the year in the Bicentennial City as the Christmas list is checked off and the Eastern college football season nears conclusion.


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Thu Dec  5 03:27:43 2002
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:27:43 -0600
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.212743.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think you might have taken that as pure career advice if he had qualified
it by saying "...teach English somewhere other than Eastern Kentucky."
Rather than changing, why not plan to add an accent (middle American
newsreader probably would go most places) appropriate to where you plan to
teach (assuming you do)?  Accents are one of the things we use to type
people we don't know well.  I was scared away from trying to use German for
years after having my accent identified as that of a Bavarian homosexual.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephani Hardin" <sbmorr01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>


In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a remark
in
class that has bothered me to this day.  He said, "Some of you in here speak
with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think seriously about
working on changing it if you want to teach English."


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec  5 03:49:46 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 19:49:46 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <028c01c29c0e$46ab45a0$615f12d0@dwhause>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.194946.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Dave Hause wrote:

> I think you might have taken that as pure career advice if he had
qualified it by saying "...teach English somewhere other than Eastern
Kentucky."

The point about career advice is well taken. I begin the first day of a
class here by telling, oh, the first minute or so of Jerry Clower's
Mississippi Coon Hunt. Then, just after I've talked about havin' a rat
killin' ("If I'm lyin', I'm dyin'"), I interrupt myself and tell the
students in my real version of standard academic English that it was, in
fact, all a big lie. Then they're to talk among themselves about that
crucial initial impression they had of me and, as part of their homework,
to write a short piece about their reaction for the next class. Most admit
to wondering how anyone with an accent like that could be teaching in
college, and some say they immediately assumed I was a racist redneck. (I
did ask for absolute honesty, incidentally.)  "American Tongues," which we
see later in the course, reminds them of that first day when they were all
caught with their prejudices a-flyin'. That video, as you'll all remember,
has a nice section devoted to the extra mile that a speaker with a heavy
Southern--or Brooklyn--accent must walk in order to reach the starting
line for a responsible position. It's a tough lesson, not soon forgotten.

Peter R.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec  5 06:52:26 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 01:52:26 -0500
Subject: Jalapeno Poppers (1992); Hairs of Angels (1912)
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.015226.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

JALAPENO POPPERS

   OED has "jalapeno" from 1949; Merriam-Webster has 1939. Nothing on the American Periodical Series.  NEW YORK TIMES full text has nothing when I checked pre-1960! I'll try to beat that later today with Henry Howard Harper's A JOURNEY IN SOUTHEASTERN MEXICO: NARRATIVE OF EXPERIENCES AND OBSERVATIONS ON AGRICULTURAL AND INDUSTRIAL CONDITIONS (1910).  If it's not missing, that is.
   Emeril is now featuring "jalapeno poppers" (www.foodtv.com).  I've seen this around a lot, but it's a trademarked name.  See below:

Word Mark JALAPENO POPPERS
Goods and Services IC 029. US 046. G & S: processed vegetables. FIRST USE: 19920105. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19920105
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 74270714
Filing Date April 30, 1992
Published for Opposition May 25, 1993
Registration Number 1788303
Registration Date August 17, 1993
Owner (REGISTRANT) Anchor Food Products, Inc. CORPORATION WISCONSIN 555 Hickory Farm Lane Appleton WISCONSIN 54914
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record MARTA S LEVINE
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "JALAPENO" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).

---------------------------------------------------------------
HAIRS OF ANGELS

FAMILIAR LETTERS OF FLITTINGS 'ROUND NAPLES, CITY OF SWEET-DO-NOTHING
By An American Girl (Katherine Phelps Lynch--ed.)
New York: The Alice Harriman Company
1912

   No "espresso."  No "pizza."  The book doesn't even have any sex.

Pg. 10:  ...gelato napolitan.

Pg. 48:  And by the way, does Giovanni still make the delectable dish of _pasta con pomidoro_?

Pg. 66:  But _Turino_ chocolates, _carino mio_, are a something which anyone knowing their great perfection, will not allow to long lie unclaimed.

Pg. 112:  ..._gelati_...

Pg. 211:  _Fritto misto_ being a mysterious Italian dish of brains and artichokes and heaven knoweth what not!

Pg. 283:  Little towns where chains of golden _pasta_ are forever drying in the hot sun--_pasta_ in all sorts of forms and sizes running from thread-like variety called Hairs of Angels!--_Capilla degli angeli_--to great heavy tubing like a garden hose...

Pg. 302:  ...sweet _frittata_ (omelet)...
   ..._grissini_, the long crisp sticks of bread.


From scorn at PACIFIC.NET.AU  Thu Dec  5 06:59:33 2002
From: scorn at PACIFIC.NET.AU (Steve Cornelius)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:59:33 +1100
Subject: Two famous sport-related quotations
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.175933.1100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm looking for the earliest known citations for two quite famous
sport-related quotations.

The first is (something like) "Winning isn't everything - it's the only thing".

The second (a response to a [journalist's?] question "Do you believe that
[enter name of game or sport] is a matter of life and death?"), is
(something like) "No, it's more important than that".

Can any ADS-L subscriber offer evidence, or perhaps just an opinion, on
either of these? They may or may not be of American origin.

Steve Cornelius
Sydney, Australia


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec  5 10:08:38 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 05:08:38 -0500
Subject: FW: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.050838.0500.>

Stephani Hardin said:
>>
In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a remark
in
class that has bothered me to this day.  He said, "Some of you in here speak
with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think seriously about
working on changing it if you want to teach English."  I find this to be
both
offensive and judgmental.  An accent has no bearing on accepted forms of
speech.  (I use the word 'accepted' rather than 'correct', because on whose
standards do we even judge forms of speech)  To ask someone to change an
accent
is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we all, regardless of where we
are from, have one.  This Professor displays a preference for one accent
over
another, and he suggests I change something that is a part of who I am.  Why
should I compromise my heritage to suit the standards of someone with
linguistic prejudices?
<<

You were wise to take the position you did.  Stick by it.  Your prof is
absolutely WRONG.  (I would even add a swear word or two.)

How do we brook such nonsense?  And in a college classroom -- truly
appalling.

This reminds me of an incident at a DSNA meeting some years ago.  A young
scholar was addressing the meeting (at DSNA, all papers are "plenary"),
perhaps 80 folks were in the auditorium.  In the course of his paper he said
something "incorrect" (perhaps it was hopefully).  He paused and sheepishly
apologized for using this frowned-upon word.  At the end of his paper he sat
down, and Sidney Landau, who was moderating that session, got up to intro
the next speaker.  But first he made a comment to the effect that if there
is ANY group of people in America where one can pretty much speak as they
please, and with impunity, it is the DSNA.  Truer words were never spoken at
a DSNA -- we DSNAers are all (well, most of us, anyway) language liberals.
(I'm a radical -- I believe that everything is OK as to one's idiolect and
regional dialect.)

One should be aware of the potential reaction of given audience members.  On
the radio, yes, many people will think that an Eastern KY accent sounds
ill-educated.  Too bad for them, but they will still think that.  You can,
however, win (many of) them over by saying good, smart, sensible things, no
matter what the accent.

Frank Abate


From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Thu Dec  5 11:44:02 2002
From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:44:02 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021204193354.19665T-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.064402.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Dave Hause wrote:
>
> > I think you might have taken that as pure career advice if he had
> qualified it by saying "...teach English somewhere other than Eastern
> Kentucky."
>

How would we react to this statement if accent were replaced by sex or race?
Surely, language is intrinsically part of identify as much as, if not more
than, either sex or race.

Rather than career advice, I find the comment to be overt discrimination, which
should be challenged every time it raises its ugly head.  Bravo, Stephani!

BTW, I thought Network Standard was Canadian. Or Texan.  Or Nebraskan.


**************************
Terry Lynn Irons


From maggie37_62 at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  5 14:23:22 2002
From: maggie37_62 at HOTMAIL.COM (Margaret Blankenship)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:23:22 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.092322.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Stephani,
I have to also say that your professor was wrong to expect people to cahnge
what is a part of who they are. Where has he/she come from that he thinks
his accent is far superior to anyone else's. That is what is wrong with our
society today, people are always so quick to judge others by an accent, sex,
religion or culture. It is ridiculous to say the least. Stephanie you stick
to your guns and tell your professor maybe they should not be teaching
because of prejidices.
Margaret Blankenship






>From: Stephani Hardin <sbmorr01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:25:38 -0500
>
>In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a remark
>in
>class that has bothered me to this day.  He said, "Some of you in here
>speak
>with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think seriously about
>working on changing it if you want to teach English."  I find this to be
>both
>offensive and judgmental.  An accent has no bearing on accepted forms of
>speech.  (I use the word 'accepted' rather than 'correct', because on whose
>standards do we even judge forms of speech)  To ask someone to change an
>accent
>is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we all, regardless of where
>we
>are from, have one.  This Professor displays a preference for one accent
>over
>another, and he suggests I change something that is a part of who I am.
>Why
>should I compromise my heritage to suit the standards of someone with
>linguistic prejudices?
>
>Stephani Hardin


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec  5 14:35:17 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:35:17 -0500
Subject: Two famous sport-related quotations
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021205175106.00a58550@po.pacific.net.au>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.093517.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:59 PM +1100 12/5/02, Steve Cornelius wrote:
>I'm looking for the earliest known citations for two quite famous
>sport-related quotations.
>
>The first is (something like) "Winning isn't everything - it's the
>only thing".
>
Did you check the ads-l archives for this one?  We had a long thread
on this one a few years back, beginning with the debunking of the
Vince Lombardi attribution and then locating a coach constituting
another possible source (I believe a southern college football coach)
for whom there is some actual corroboration.

Larry


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Dec  5 14:38:46 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:38:46 EST
Subject: Two famous sport-related quotations
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.093846.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/5/02 2:17:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
scorn at PACIFIC.NET.AU writes:

> "Winning isn't everything - it's the only thing"

Attributed to George Allen, who coached the Washington Redskins in the
National Football League in the 1970's, but I wouldn't bet any money that
Allen originated it.

It is not widely known how much of a debt this country owes to George Allen.
I lived in Washington during Watergate and I assure you it was not too much
of an exaggeration to say that only pride in Allen and his overachieving
Redskins kept Washington DC functioning during those ill-starred years.

        - Jim Landau


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Dec  5 14:49:53 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:49:53 -0800
Subject: Which and Falaqa
In-Reply-To: <a05010402ba13c0fcb183@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.064953.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis,

The "wh" isn't a borrowing - as I see it- so the
spelling and pronunciation have evolved and diverged
as part of the development of the English language.

Yes, I think Goethe is an example of a similar
affectation: I guess no one could decide whether to
simply pronounce it in English as the spelling "Gothe"
would indicate, or to render an approximation such as
"Gutta" or "Gurtta", so a confusing semi-german
spelling was choosen and we were left to stumble over
the pronunciation!

But my main point with the Arabic "q" is that it
becomes either an English "k" or "g", it never is what
Tom Harrison describes in another post as a "...velar
stop that is farther back than the one that occurs in
English and is not phonetically conditioned, as is the
English "k" sound."  The letter "q" doesn't exist in
Arabic, the Arabic sound doesn't exist in English but
is approximated by "k" or "g" when speaking, so why
use "q" to represent a "k" or "g" sound when writing?

"Koran" is seen as "Q'run" more frequently.  We still
write and speak of "Kuwait", but on the other hand, it
has been "Iraq" for as long as I remember.


--- "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU> wrote:
> Why the affectation of "wh" in "who," "why,"
> "which," whether,"
> etc...? Why the affectation of "oe" in Goethe? Are
> all spellings
> which do not phonemically represent English (leaving
> the question
> which English aside since Michigan English is
> obviously to be
> preferred) pronunciations affectations?
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
> >More generic than just "falaqa", actually.  Why do
> we
> >use "q" instead of "k" in rendering Arabic into
> >English?  Why Qatar, which I've heard pronounced on
> >the BBC news as more like "gutar" or even "gutter",
> >instead of Katar?  The sound in Arabic is
> presumably
> >distinct from the English "k" sound, but it usually
> >becomes simply "k" in English, whether the "q" or
> "k"
> >is used to represent it.  If it's closer to "g"
> than
> >"k", why not use the "g"?  Why this seeming
> >affectation for "q" in English rendering or
> borrowing
> >of Arabic?
> >
> >
> >=====
> >James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches
> anything
> >South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will
> be sued
> >jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act
> quickly and decisively
> >                                |or slowly and
> cautiously.
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>       Asian & African Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> phone: (517) 353-9290



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec  5 14:55:04 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:55:04 -0500
Subject: Two famous sport-related quotations
In-Reply-To: <44.2a4fdf80.2b20bef6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.095504.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:38 AM -0500 12/5/02, James A. Landau wrote:
>In a message dated 12/5/02 2:17:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>scorn at PACIFIC.NET.AU writes:
>
>>  "Winning isn't everything - it's the only thing"
>
>Attributed to George Allen, who coached the Washington Redskins in the
>National Football League in the 1970's, but I wouldn't bet any money that
>Allen originated it.
>
>It is not widely known how much of a debt this country owes to George Allen.
>I lived in Washington during Watergate and I assure you it was not too much
>of an exaggeration to say that only pride in Allen and his overachieving

and "over the hill"

>Redskins kept Washington DC functioning during those ill-starred years.
>
It definitely predated George Allen (even in his L. A. Rams years,
much less his Redskin years), and Lombardi as well.

Larry


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Thu Dec  5 14:51:44 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:51:44 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021204193354.19665T-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.095144.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As offensive as attitudes' like this professor's are, they are legal, as are
the prejudicial actions that are taken on the basis of them. Rosina
Lippi-Greene makes this point eloquently in her book English with an Accent.
Accent and dialect are two of the few remaining areas of public activity in
which discrimination is still not just legal but licensed by court
decisions.  It's not just attitudes we have to change.

Herb

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Peter Richardson
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 10:50 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Dave Hause wrote:

> I think you might have taken that as pure career advice if he had
qualified it by saying "...teach English somewhere other than Eastern
Kentucky."

The point about career advice is well taken. I begin the first day of a
class here by telling, oh, the first minute or so of Jerry Clower's
Mississippi Coon Hunt. Then, just after I've talked about havin' a rat
killin' ("If I'm lyin', I'm dyin'"), I interrupt myself and tell the
students in my real version of standard academic English that it was, in
fact, all a big lie. Then they're to talk among themselves about that
crucial initial impression they had of me and, as part of their homework,
to write a short piece about their reaction for the next class. Most admit
to wondering how anyone with an accent like that could be teaching in
college, and some say they immediately assumed I was a racist redneck. (I
did ask for absolute honesty, incidentally.)  "American Tongues," which we
see later in the course, reminds them of that first day when they were all
caught with their prejudices a-flyin'. That video, as you'll all remember,
has a nice section devoted to the extra mile that a speaker with a heavy
Southern--or Brooklyn--accent must walk in order to reach the starting
line for a responsible position. It's a tough lesson, not soon forgotten.

Peter R.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Dec  5 14:54:37 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:54:37 -0600
Subject: "Yanigans" -- another message from 19cBB discussion group
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.085437.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Below my signoff is another message on baseball Yanigans from the
19th Century Baseball discussion group.

Gerald Cohen


To: "'19cBB at yahoogroups.com '" <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
From: "Ball, David (BALLDW)" <BALLDW at UCMAIL.UC.EDU>
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:38:03 -0500
Subject: RE: [19cBB] yanigans
Reply-To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com


Long ago, in a galaxy far away, I remember reading that the term was coined
by Jerry Denny when he played for Providence.  I have no idea what the
source was, but if it's right -- or if it was in use at all at that time --
the term would be pushed back to the early or middle 1880's.

This is a stretch, but it strikes me that Denny, though he grew up in
California, was obviously playing in New England when he was with
Providence.  Steve Brady, the putative friend of Con Yannigan and Denny's
older contemporary, was also a New Englander, and likewise Wilbert Robinson.
On the other hand, I see that Frank Kitson, who seems to have been unaware
of the term until he heard it from Robinson, was from Michigan.  Of course,
I'll have to admit that Ned Hanlon, who also seems not to have heard of it,
was yet another New Englander.  Still, maybe New England is the place to
look for the origin of the word?

David Ball

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Morris
To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12/4/02 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: [19cBB] yanigans

In the Grand Rapids (MI) Herald of May 24, 1903, Frank Kitson gave this
explanation of the term's origin: "in 1896 when Ned Hanlon had his old
Baltimore Orioles, we went to Macon, Ga., for our training trip.
Wilbert
Robinson, the chunky Baltimore catcher, was picked by Hanlon to captain
the
Colts' team.  That year we had a bunch of youngsters who were very fast,
but
Hanlon did not think well of them and the day before the practice there
was
all sorts of 'kidding' around the hotel about 'Robbie's' team.
Baltimore
had her old-time team [including John McGraw, 'Wee Willie' Keeler, Hugh
Jennings, Joe Kelley, 'Steve' Brodie, etc.] . . . 'Robbie' had for his
players a bunch of youngsters, seven of whom were either pitchers or
catchers.  I played second base and what we did to the regulars was a
plenty.  We beat them 19 to 4 and that night 'Robbie' was so tickled,
the
little old American house in Macon would not hold him.
        "Hanlon naturally was sore and when 'Robbie' came from the
diningroom he
laughingly said to Hanlon: 'You have a h--l of a nice team.  Even my
Yanigans can beat you.'  'What's the Yanigans?' asked Hanlon.  'That's
my
kid team in Baltimore,' was the reply. 'They're only 14 years old.' ...
'Y-a-n-i-g-a-n-s - Yanigans,' mused Hanlon.  'Yanigans, that's a pretty
good
name for a practice team.'  And from that day to this all the younger
players who work against the regulars during training trips are called
'Yanigans.' "

Peter Morris

>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: marty payne [mailto:martyp at toad.net]
>  Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 5:21 PM
>  To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
>  Subject: [19cBB] yanigans
>
>
>  In 1897 the Baltimore Orioles sponsored a team called the
>  Yanigans.  They were composed of the Oriole non roster reserve
>  players and "a few other choice professionals" from the Baltimore
>  area.  They were often managed by Wilbert Robinson.  They toured
>  the area playing against city and rural semi pro teams.  The
>  purpose was to keep their non roster players sharp in case they
>  were needed.
>
>                                                  Marty Payne
>
>
>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


From THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU  Thu Dec  5 15:00:35 2002
From: THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:00:35 -0500
Subject: Which and Falaqa
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.100035.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I defer to one who clearly knows more about it than I do.

But now that I think about it, the alternate voiced and voiceless stops used
in transliteration suggest that the issue is not placement or voice, but
aspiration--that is, that the sound in question is a voiceless but
unaspirated stop, so that English speakers can't quite decide whether it is
a "k" or a "g."

Similar issues arise in the competing transliterations of Chinese.

Thom Harrison


-----Original Message-----
From: James Smith [mailto:jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM]
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:50 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Which and Falaqa


Dennis,

The "wh" isn't a borrowing - as I see it- so the
spelling and pronunciation have evolved and diverged
as part of the development of the English language.

Yes, I think Goethe is an example of a similar
affectation: I guess no one could decide whether to
simply pronounce it in English as the spelling "Gothe"
would indicate, or to render an approximation such as
"Gutta" or "Gurtta", so a confusing semi-german
spelling was choosen and we were left to stumble over
the pronunciation!

But my main point with the Arabic "q" is that it
becomes either an English "k" or "g", it never is what
Tom Harrison describes in another post as a "...velar
stop that is farther back than the one that occurs in
English and is not phonetically conditioned, as is the
English "k" sound."  The letter "q" doesn't exist in
Arabic, the Arabic sound doesn't exist in English but
is approximated by "k" or "g" when speaking, so why
use "q" to represent a "k" or "g" sound when writing?

"Koran" is seen as "Q'run" more frequently.  We still
write and speak of "Kuwait", but on the other hand, it
has been "Iraq" for as long as I remember.


--- "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU> wrote:
> Why the affectation of "wh" in "who," "why,"
> "which," whether,"
> etc...? Why the affectation of "oe" in Goethe? Are
> all spellings
> which do not phonemically represent English (leaving
> the question
> which English aside since Michigan English is
> obviously to be
> preferred) pronunciations affectations?
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
> >More generic than just "falaqa", actually.  Why do
> we
> >use "q" instead of "k" in rendering Arabic into
> >English?  Why Qatar, which I've heard pronounced on
> >the BBC news as more like "gutar" or even "gutter",
> >instead of Katar?  The sound in Arabic is
> presumably
> >distinct from the English "k" sound, but it usually
> >becomes simply "k" in English, whether the "q" or
> "k"
> >is used to represent it.  If it's closer to "g"
> than
> >"k", why not use the "g"?  Why this seeming
> >affectation for "q" in English rendering or
> borrowing
> >of Arabic?
> >
> >
> >=====
> >James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches
> anything
> >South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will
> be sued
> >jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act
> quickly and decisively
> >                                |or slowly and
> cautiously.
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>       Asian & African Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> phone: (517) 353-9290



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From travishall456 at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  5 16:02:27 2002
From: travishall456 at HOTMAIL.COM (Travis Hall)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:02:27 +0000
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.160227.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20021205/41fda3da/attachment.html>

From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Dec  5 16:49:35 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:49:35 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <F72sJ4X0q1y9v2N3tI70000c9cf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.114935.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Since i am from north central Kentucky, I actually subtract
>23.567832, give or take a little.

dInIs



>Unfortunately for those of us with an Eastern Kentucky accent, while
>many others are thought of as sophisticated, people hear the Eastern
>Kentucky accent and subtract a couple dozen IQ points.
>
>
>
>
>Travis Scott Hall
>
>  >From: Margaret Blankenship
>  >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
>  >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>  >Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>  >Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:23:22 -0500
>  >
>  >Stephani,
>  >I have to also say that your professor was wrong to expect people to
>  >cahnge
>  >what is a part of who they are. Where has he/she come from that he
>  >thinks
>  >his accent is far superior to anyone else's. That is what is wrong
>  >with our
>  >society today, people are always so quick to judge others by an
>  >accent, sex,
>  >religion or culture. It is ridiculous to say the least. Stephanie
>  >you stick
>  >to your guns and tell your professor maybe they should not be
>  >teaching
>  >because of prejidices.
>  >Margaret Blankenship
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >>From: Stephani Hardin
>  >>Reply-To: American Dialect Society
>  >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>  >>Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>  >>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:25:38 -0500
>  >>
>  >>In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a
>  >>remark
>  >>in
>  >>class that has bothered me to this day. He said, "Some of you in
>  >>here
>  >>speak
>  >>with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think
>  >>seriously about
>  >>working on changing it if you want to teach English." I find this
>  >>to be
>  >>both
>  >>offensive and judgmental. An accent has no bearing on accepted
>  >>forms of
>  >>speech. (I use the word 'accepted' rather than 'correct', because
>  >>on whose
>  >>standards do we even judge forms of speech) To ask someone to
>  >>change an
>  >>accent
>  >>is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we all, regardless of
>  >>where
>  >>we
>  >>are from, have one. This Professor displays a preference for one
>  >>accent
>  >>over
>  >>another, and he suggests I change something that is a part of who I
>  >>am.
>  >>Why
>  >>should I compromise my heritage to suit the standards of someone
>  >>with
>  >>linguistic prejudices?
>  >>
>  >>Stephani Hardin
>  >
>  >
>  >_________________________________________________________________
>  >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
>  >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
>
><http://g.msn.com/8HMHEN/2015>the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Thu Dec  5 16:48:36 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:48:36 -0500
Subject: Two famous sport-related quotations
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.114836.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  >> "Winning isn't everything - it's the only thing"

According to Bartlett's, it's "attributed to" football coach Red Sanders
(affiliation not stated), 1953.

--DS


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec  5 17:14:12 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:14:12 -0800
Subject: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
In-Reply-To: <20021205144953.90627.qmail@web9701.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.091412.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Huh?  "Goethe" is not a "confusing semi-german spelling" that was "chosen"
by some American.  It's the way the name is actually spelled in German.
It's a foreign name, not a loanword subject to the naturalization processes
such words undergo in the recipient language.  While it would be
unreasonable to demand that no one who doesn't have a command of German
should be allowed to utter the name, it is not unreasonable to expect such
a person to approximate the German pronunciation to the best of his or her
ability.  E.g., it's reasonable to accept a syllabic "American r" as an
honest attempt to approximate the first vowel, but it's also reasonable to
expect a t, not a th, for the second consonant, since no American should
have any problem pronouncing the t in a way that's indistinguishable from
the German pronunciation.

Peter Mc.

--On Thursday, December 5, 2002 6:49 AM -0800 James Smith
<jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> Yes, I think Goethe is an example of a similar
> affectation: I guess no one could decide whether to
> simply pronounce it in English as the spelling "Gothe"
> would indicate, or to render an approximation such as
> "Gutta" or "Gurtta", so a confusing semi-german
> spelling was choosen and we were left to stumble over
> the pronunciation!



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Dec  5 18:16:56 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:16:56 -0500
Subject: Which & Falaqa w/a Kentucky accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.131656.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 There's a comic element in the parallel running of these two threads.
Which particular English are you going to aim at in respelling the sounds
of another language?
A. Murie


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec  5 18:32:31 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:32:31 -0800
Subject: Which & Falaqa w/a Kentucky accent
In-Reply-To: <l03130300ba15446eefa7@[12.107.141.208]>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.103231.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, December 5, 2002 1:16 PM -0500 sagehen
<sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:

> Which particular English are you going to aim at in respelling the sounds
> of another language?

That's easy: whichever variety distinguishes between a velar and a uvular
stop. :)

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec  5 18:36:46 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:36:46 EST
Subject: "Windy City" and today's snowstorm
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.133646.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  It's already started to snow.  The NYPL might close early, denying you a
"lebkuchen," "jalapeno" and "yanigan."  If so, I'll research them on
Saturday.  Anyway, take another "Windy City" error and keep out of the storm.

Barry Popik,
Brooklyn Eagle beta tester?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec  5 18:38:49 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:38:49 EST
Subject: "Windy City" and today's snowstorm
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.133849.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ah!  Forgot the attachment!
--B.P.


Copyright 2002 CanWest Interactive, a division of
CanWest Global Communications Corp.
All Rights Reserved
The Halifax Daily News

November 25, 2002 Monday DAILY Edition

SECTION: NEWS; Pg. 32

LENGTH: 197 words

HEADLINE: Windy City has nothing on us

BYLINE: Cindy Day

BODY:
JUST BEFORE FIVE o'clock yesterday morning, a gust of wind rolled up the hill
from the harbour and for a brief moment, I thought the roof was going to lift
off my house. I don't mind a nice warm breeze in the summer, but this cold
northwest wind isn't quite as pleasant. We're no strangers to wind here in
the Maritimes, but can you imagine what it would be like in the "Windy City?"
Well you might be surprised. Chicago's nickname is not associated with actual
windy conditions. Rather, it was given to the city by New York Sun editor
Charles Dana in 1893. Dana was sick of hearing long-winded politicians
boasting about the wonders of the World's Colombian Exposition held in
Chicago that year. It's hard to imagine that an editorial comment made more
almost 110 years ago, still stands today.

In terms of wind, Halifax, New Glasgow, Yarmouth and Sydney are all windier
than the "windy city," with average wind speeds ranging from 18 to 21 km/h.

Chicago's average wind speed is only 10 km/h. If we were to crown a Canadian
City with "windiest" honours, it would go to St. John's Nfld, with an average
wind speed of 24 km/h.

Cindy Day is a meteorologist with Global TV.

LOAD-DATE: November 25, 2002


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Thu Dec  5 18:34:42 2002
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:34:42 -0700
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.113442.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Dodi Schultz <SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM>

<snip>

: So what do you call it? The kids, Allan reported, just call it
: "typing." Most of the grownups I know do, too. Even though
: there's no longer *type* attached to, or moved by, the keys.

I have to admit that i'd *never* made any connection between the verb 'type'
and the noun 'type' referred to in the last line there. Now that i see it,
it makes perfect sense, though.

Anyway, since i was born in 1970 and thus part of what probably counts as
the leading edge of The Generation Without Typewriters<tm>, here's my take:

'Typing' is what you do with a keyboard.

'Keyboarding' is a term for 'typing' like 'sanitation engineering' is to
'trash collector'--something to make it sound less low-<insert whatever
here> than it is.

'Touch typing' is a specific kind of typing. I don't think i've ever used
the word actively (before this paragraph), but if i had to define it, i'd
define it as 'the sort of typing they teach in typing classes'. Now, of
course, lots of people (including me) learn to type without ever being
taught some specific method.

Personal experience to the point: When i was in high school, i had to type
something (using a typewriter), and i was sent to some part of the school
office where they had a typewriter i could use. I started typing
(*fast*--end of high school/beginning of college is when i was at my
personal peak for typing speed, 75-80 wpm). The typing class (which i never
took) teacher happened to be nearby. She watched me typing, and then said
"You can't type like that!" (My self-taught method has, for all intents and
purposes, no home keys, unless the spacebar counts.) I was suitably amused.

Incidentally, typewriters are still a serious necessity, even for those of
us raised with dedicated word processors and then later PCs--if you have to
fill out a pre-printed form, nothing beats a typewriter. For this reason,
all through college i found that i could guarantee a supply of devoted
friends simply by letting it be known that i owned a typewriter.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Thu Dec  5 18:54:13 2002
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:54:13 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.105413.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To all:

I don't know what to say to all of this.  I only know what my mother told me
once about her college experience, where everyone was expected to take
"speech" lessons.  The purpose of these "speech lessons" was to get some
people(specifically people from some parts of the South and from some parts
of New York)to "lose" their "accents".  Southerners at that time (and
sometimes still are) considered ill-educated and stupid in the "folklore".
The other "experience" I've had is reading about people who take "speech"
therapy so they can "lose" their accents and succeed in business.
Apparently people with "Eastern Kentucky" and other obvious "Southern"
accents aren't taken seriously in business or as TV announcers, etc.  So
prejudiced and ill-informed as this professor may be, he appears to be
coming from a long tradition. . . .
Anne G
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


> >Since i am from north central Kentucky, I actually subtract
> >23.567832, give or take a little.
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
> >Unfortunately for those of us with an Eastern Kentucky accent, while
> >many others are thought of as sophisticated, people hear the Eastern
> >Kentucky accent and subtract a couple dozen IQ points.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Travis Scott Hall
> >
> >  >From: Margaret Blankenship
> >  >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> >  >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >  >Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
> >  >Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:23:22 -0500
> >  >
> >  >Stephani,
> >  >I have to also say that your professor was wrong to expect people to
> >  >cahnge
> >  >what is a part of who they are. Where has he/she come from that he
> >  >thinks
> >  >his accent is far superior to anyone else's. That is what is wrong
> >  >with our
> >  >society today, people are always so quick to judge others by an
> >  >accent, sex,
> >  >religion or culture. It is ridiculous to say the least. Stephanie
> >  >you stick
> >  >to your guns and tell your professor maybe they should not be
> >  >teaching
> >  >because of prejidices.
> >  >Margaret Blankenship
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >>From: Stephani Hardin
> >  >>Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> >  >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >  >>Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
> >  >>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:25:38 -0500
> >  >>
> >  >>In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a
> >  >>remark
> >  >>in
> >  >>class that has bothered me to this day. He said, "Some of you in
> >  >>here
> >  >>speak
> >  >>with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think
> >  >>seriously about
> >  >>working on changing it if you want to teach English." I find this
> >  >>to be
> >  >>both
> >  >>offensive and judgmental. An accent has no bearing on accepted
> >  >>forms of
> >  >>speech. (I use the word 'accepted' rather than 'correct', because
> >  >>on whose
> >  >>standards do we even judge forms of speech) To ask someone to
> >  >>change an
> >  >>accent
> >  >>is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we all, regardless of
> >  >>where
> >  >>we
> >  >>are from, have one. This Professor displays a preference for one
> >  >>accent
> >  >>over
> >  >>another, and he suggests I change something that is a part of who I
> >  >>am.
> >  >>Why
> >  >>should I compromise my heritage to suit the standards of someone
> >  >>with
> >  >>linguistic prejudices?
> >  >>
> >  >>Stephani Hardin
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >_________________________________________________________________
> >  >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
> >  >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
> >
> >
> ><http://g.msn.com/8HMHEN/2015>the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>       Asian & African Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> phone: (517) 353-9290
>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Dec  5 19:00:19 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:00:19 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <023c01c29c8d$94c69800$0c53bb80@bowied>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.140019.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:34 AM 12/5/2002 -0700, Bowie wrote:

>Incidentally, typewriters are still a serious necessity, even for those of
>us raised with dedicated word processors and then later PCs--if you have to
>fill out a pre-printed form, nothing beats a typewriter. For this reason,
>all through college i found that i could guarantee a supply of devoted
>friends simply by letting it be known that i owned a typewriter.
>
>David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
>     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
>     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
>     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.

I had an M.A. student from Brazil this quarter who panicked when I said she
should type the title etc. on the defense approval form--she had no idea
how to use a typewriter!  So I typed it for her.

(P.S.  I love Jeanne's chocolate laws and have passed them on to all my
friends!)


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Thu Dec  5 19:17:55 2002
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:17:55 -0500
Subject: Bougie/Bourgie
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021205135600.00b59e78@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.141755.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone run into any printed examples of the short form of "bourgeois"
that's pronounced "bougie"? I'm editing a text written by a black woman and
she uses the "bougie" spelling; that's how it sounds when my husband says
it but I've never seen it written.


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Dec  5 19:19:41 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:19:41 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <003001c29c8f$b50427c0$7d0ad63f@annehpbrww9plk>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.141941.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money move
southward, as they now are.  Four presidents since LBJ have been from the
South, and no one considers them dumb (well, maybe excepting the present
one...), and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
didn't talk like the Eastern elite by any means.  Congressional, corporate,
and even media leaders are increasingly from the South and Southwest.  So
patience--as Labov concluded a talk he gave a few years ago at SECOL, the
South shall rise again!

I'm curious to know what college your mother attended, Anne?

At 10:54 AM 12/5/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>To all:
>
>I don't know what to say to all of this.  I only know what my mother told me
>once about her college experience, where everyone was expected to take
>"speech" lessons.  The purpose of these "speech lessons" was to get some
>people(specifically people from some parts of the South and from some parts
>of New York)to "lose" their "accents".  Southerners at that time (and
>sometimes still are) considered ill-educated and stupid in the "folklore".
>The other "experience" I've had is reading about people who take "speech"
>therapy so they can "lose" their accents and succeed in business.
>Apparently people with "Eastern Kentucky" and other obvious "Southern"
>accents aren't taken seriously in business or as TV announcers, etc.  So
>prejudiced and ill-informed as this professor may be, he appears to be
>coming from a long tradition. . . .
>Anne G
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 8:49 AM
>Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>
>
> > >Since i am from north central Kentucky, I actually subtract
> > >23.567832, give or take a little.
> >
> > dInIs
> >
> >
> >
> > >Unfortunately for those of us with an Eastern Kentucky accent, while
> > >many others are thought of as sophisticated, people hear the Eastern
> > >Kentucky accent and subtract a couple dozen IQ points.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Travis Scott Hall
> > >
> > >  >From: Margaret Blankenship
> > >  >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> > >  >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >  >Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
> > >  >Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:23:22 -0500
> > >  >
> > >  >Stephani,
> > >  >I have to also say that your professor was wrong to expect people to
> > >  >cahnge
> > >  >what is a part of who they are. Where has he/she come from that he
> > >  >thinks
> > >  >his accent is far superior to anyone else's. That is what is wrong
> > >  >with our
> > >  >society today, people are always so quick to judge others by an
> > >  >accent, sex,
> > >  >religion or culture. It is ridiculous to say the least. Stephanie
> > >  >you stick
> > >  >to your guns and tell your professor maybe they should not be
> > >  >teaching
> > >  >because of prejidices.
> > >  >Margaret Blankenship
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >>From: Stephani Hardin
> > >  >>Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> > >  >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >  >>Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
> > >  >>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:25:38 -0500
> > >  >>
> > >  >>In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a
> > >  >>remark
> > >  >>in
> > >  >>class that has bothered me to this day. He said, "Some of you in
> > >  >>here
> > >  >>speak
> > >  >>with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think
> > >  >>seriously about
> > >  >>working on changing it if you want to teach English." I find this
> > >  >>to be
> > >  >>both
> > >  >>offensive and judgmental. An accent has no bearing on accepted
> > >  >>forms of
> > >  >>speech. (I use the word 'accepted' rather than 'correct', because
> > >  >>on whose
> > >  >>standards do we even judge forms of speech) To ask someone to
> > >  >>change an
> > >  >>accent
> > >  >>is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we all, regardless of
> > >  >>where
> > >  >>we
> > >  >>are from, have one. This Professor displays a preference for one
> > >  >>accent
> > >  >>over
> > >  >>another, and he suggests I change something that is a part of who I
> > >  >>am.
> > >  >>Why
> > >  >>should I compromise my heritage to suit the standards of someone
> > >  >>with
> > >  >>linguistic prejudices?
> > >  >>
> > >  >>Stephani Hardin
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >_________________________________________________________________
> > >  >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
> > >  >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
> > >
> > >
> > ><http://g.msn.com/8HMHEN/2015>the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> >
> > --
> > Dennis R. Preston
> > Professor of Linguistics
> > Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
> >       Asian & African Languages
> > Michigan State University
> > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> > e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> > phone: (517) 353-9290
> >


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Thu Dec  5 19:21:23 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:21:23 -0800
Subject: Those ones
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.112123.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I got a request to settle a grammar question today
about the use of "those (exact) ones". My friends
husband grew up in Oklahoma and was told to never use
"ones" with "those". He gave her a hard time about the
phrase "those exact ones". I have never heard of this
prescriptive rule, but I must admit that "those ones"
by itself sounds pretty bad to me. However, with an
adjective it sounds fine. The following are my
judgements:

I like these cars much better than those ones. (not so
good)

I like these cars much better than those. (good)

But

I like these green cars much better than those red
ones. (good)

I like these green cars much better than those red.
(not so good)


That said, Jespersen In his 1933 Essentials of English
Grammar states: "The secondary combined with "one" is
very often an adjective...The secondary may also be a
pronoun." And then he gives the following example:

You must get some other clothes-those ones aren't fit
to be seen.

Does anyone share these judgements? Has anyone heard
this precriptive rule?

Ed

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From dave at WILTON.NET  Thu Dec  5 19:46:55 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:46:55 -0800
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <023c01c29c8d$94c69800$0c53bb80@bowied>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.114655.0800.>

> 'Keyboarding' is a term for 'typing' like 'sanitation
> engineering' is to
> 'trash collector'--something to make it sound less
> low-<insert whatever
> here> than it is.

I wouldn't make that association with status. Rather, "keyboarding" is
computer jargon. It was coined for those situations where you are using a
keyboard on a device other than a typewriter. It's also much older than I
thought. The OED2 has a 1926 cite, using "keyboarding" to mean typesetting a
manuscript for print. The computer uses date to 1961.

There is also "to key" and "to key in" that are widely used in computing,
also dating to the early '60s. And there is the obsolete "keypunching,"
meaning to operate a keypunch machine used to punch data onto punchcards or
tape.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec  5 20:30:28 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 15:30:28 -0500
Subject: Lebkuchen (1850)
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.153028.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PICTURES OF NUREMBERG:
AND RAMBLES IN THE HILLS AND VALLEYS OF FRANCONIA
by H. J. Whitling
in two volumes
London: Richard Bentley
1850

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 80:  For the truth is, I always had a great desire to see it; and, even when a boy, had made up my mind, if possible, to visit it at some time or other, were it only to see the dungeons, and eat some of its famous "eggs," without being then aware that the "Nuremberg egg" was the same kind of vegetable novelty as the "English turnip;"...

Pg. 224: ...we will add no more upon this, beyond stating that Punch is drunk, and much Lebkuchen* eaten and given away by the orthodox on this occasion.
*Leb'kuchen, or, as it is called by some, lebbe (sweet) in the Osnaburg dialect, or otherwise Leben-kuchen, life-cake, a delicious kind of gingerbread, white or brown, for which Nuremberg is so much celebrated; and as the gentlemen have been indulged with a recipe for the "nectar," it would be unpardonable in us to omit the same consideration for the ladies; and, therefore, we have been at the pains to procure the necessary directions for the preparation of the "ambrosia" also.  Imprimatur!--
   Take eight eggs, beat them, yolks and whites together, for half an (Pg. 225--ed.) hour, with one pound of finely-sifted white sugar.  Rub into this the peeling of a whole lemon; mix it well; also, a table spoonful of ground spice, viz., one part of cloves, one part cardamums, and two parts of cinnamon; the same quantity also of finely cut candied orange peel; half a pound of blanched and roasted almonds shred in small pieces; one pound of fine dry flour--the whole to be well blended together, and spread out in convenient sizes on wafer (in Nuremberg they are always of this <> form, about eight inches by four inches), and baked in a quick oven.

Pg. 227:  These eggs the children are informed are laid by the hares* at this season,...
*See the translation of "The Easter Eggs," Die Ostereier, by H. J. Whitling, from the German of Christoph. Von Schmid.

Pg. 262:  Tea is served on these occasions at about half past five or from that to six o'clock, and it is called a "sweet tea," from the multitudinous cakes that accompany it, many of which are of the most delicious description, except that they are sometime a little _too_ sweet.

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 32:  So, then come and take this trout; get him ready for breakfast as quickly as possible, sparing neither eggs nor schmalz!

Pg. 48:  We had devoured sundry trout of our own catching, and a few dishes of "etwas dezu,"...

Pg. 147:  My heart clicked like a Nuremberg egg;*...
*The name given to the "watch" originally made there.

Pg. 223:  ...Molkenkur*...
*Goat's whey.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Dec  5 20:22:28 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 15:22:28 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021204193354.19665T-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.152228.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The fun part is when discriminated-against accents collide. An
intelligent acquaintance in the tech business recently moved from
Attlanta to New York City. He's got a placid, meandering Southern
accent and works for a firm of fast-talking Brooklynites who he says
sound like Joe Pesci. The firm responds to the stupidity they perceive
in his accent by offering him ridiculous below-average hourly wages; he
believes his employers to be uneducated fast-talking scammers not far
from thugs.

--
Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
gbarrett at americandialect.org
American Dialect Society webmaster
http://www.americandialect.org/


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Dec  5 21:24:45 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:24:45 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.132445.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 12/05/02 11:19AM >>>
 >and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,

Recent?


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Thu Dec  5 21:31:39 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:31:39 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <sdef53b8.095@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.163139.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

> >and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>
>Recent?

Ah youth!

Bethany


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Thu Dec  5 21:47:19 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:47:19 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <023c01c29c8d$94c69800$0c53bb80@bowied>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.164719.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, David Bowie wrote:

>Incidentally, typewriters are still a serious necessity, even for those of
>us raised with dedicated word processors and then later PCs--if you have to
>fill out a pre-printed form, nothing beats a typewriter. For this reason,
>all through college i found that i could guarantee a supply of devoted
>friends simply by letting it be known that i owned a typewriter.

Interesting. I gave my last typewriter away so that it would no longer
be possible for me to fill out a paper pre-printed form.

Bethany


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Dec  5 21:49:12 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:49:12 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.134912.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You've made my day, Bethany; it has been many years since I have been called 'youth'  (at least in English).  However, when I go to Germany, regardless of how old I get, everyone calls me 'youth.'
Fritz JUENGLING

>>> dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU 12/05/02 01:31PM >>>
On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
> >and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>Recent?
>Ah youth!
>Bethany


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Dec  5 21:53:40 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:53:40 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <sdef53b8.095@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.165340.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:24 PM 12/5/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 12/05/02 11:19AM >>>
>  >and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>
>Recent?

It's all relative!  I was thinking post-WWII.  (Hey, I remember FDR.)


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Dec  5 21:56:00 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:56:00 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0212051646130.21040-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.165600.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:47 PM 12/5/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, David Bowie wrote:
>
> >Incidentally, typewriters are still a serious necessity, even for those of
> >us raised with dedicated word processors and then later PCs--if you have to
> >fill out a pre-printed form, nothing beats a typewriter. For this reason,
> >all through college i found that i could guarantee a supply of devoted
> >friends simply by letting it be known that i owned a typewriter.
>
>Interesting. I gave my last typewriter away so that it would no longer
>be possible for me to fill out a paper pre-printed form.
>
>Bethany

But the downside to this is that young people now fill out application
forms etc. with the most indecipherable penmanship I've ever seen.  Ugh!


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec  5 22:05:50 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:05:50 -0800
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <023c01c29c8d$94c69800$0c53bb80@bowied>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.140550.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I have to admit that i'd *never* made any connection between the verb 'type'
> and the noun 'type' referred to in the last line there. Now that i see it,
> it makes perfect sense, though.

Among the stuff in my basement (for those back East: cellar) is a 1913
Chandler & Price letterpress, ca. 1800 lbs. of it, with around 60 trays
full of type of all sizes and linoleum cuts and boxwood engravings used to
print all sorts of ephemera. To the course I mentioned yesterday (the
Jerry Clower story) I take a type tray (also known as a case), usually
with something as big as 18 point type, and ask each student to take a
letter e out of the lower part of the tray (easy to find because it's in
the biggest compartment)  and press it hard against the meat of the thumb,
then release it and peer at the image.  Goodness: lots of e all over the
place. After I explain the process of hand-setting a page for the press,
they put the letters back into the e compartment. Then I take out a
capital E from its little compartment, which is in the top part of the
case.

And so they learn what "upper case" and "lower case" is. And it beats a
tattoo parlor.

PR


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Thu Dec  5 21:53:11 2002
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:53:11 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <46584E16-088F-11D7-A59F-0003931D8244@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.165311.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a counter-example:  it's always struck me as funny that the
"Boston accent" seems to enjoy status outside eastern MA.
Whereas I grew up thinking of it as a sort of working-class dialect,
my friends from out of state associate it with the aristocratic
Kennedy clan.  On the other hand, a Latina friend from NYC just
howls at the way Bostonians pronounce "Nomar Garciaparra."
Those Bostonian aristocrats can't roll an "r" to save their lives, it
seems!

Joanne Despres
Merriam-Webster


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec  5 22:09:15 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:09:15 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021205140913.00b5a028@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.140915.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money move
> southward, as they now are.

How very true. There's a nice parallel in Germany, where the shift of
power and money to the south has engendered a sudden appreciation for
Swabian and Bavarian accents that used to be ridiculed.

PR


From linguist at PUNCHCUTTER.ML1.NET  Thu Dec  5 23:44:48 2002
From: linguist at PUNCHCUTTER.ML1.NET (David Iannucci)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:44:48 -0700
Subject: Falaqa
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.164448.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> My understanding is that the "q" spelling of Arabic words is used for a
> velar stop that is farther back than the one that occurs in English and
> is not phonetically conditioned, as is the English "k" sound.

  That would be a uvular stop (voiceless), and if I'm not mistaken 'q' is
  even the IPA symbol for this sound.

> It is also sometimes transliterated as "g" as it
> Kaddafi/Qaddafi/Gaddafi.

  Just wild speculation here, but I suspect that this sound, in spite of
  being voiceless, is often heard and transliterated as 'g' by English
  speakers because it is not aspirated, as 'k' would always be
  word-initially in English.

Dave


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec  5 17:35:58 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:35:58 -0500
Subject: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
In-Reply-To: <232994.1039079652@[10.218.201.115]>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.123558.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:14 AM -0800 12/5/02, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>Huh?  "Goethe" is not a "confusing semi-german spelling" that was "chosen"
>by some American.  It's the way the name is actually spelled in German.
>It's a foreign name, not a loanword subject to the naturalization processes
>such words undergo in the recipient language.  While it would be
>unreasonable to demand that no one who doesn't have a command of German
>should be allowed to utter the name, it is not unreasonable to expect such
>a person to approximate the German pronunciation to the best of his or her
>ability.  E.g., it's reasonable to accept a syllabic "American r" as an
>honest attempt to approximate the first vowel, but it's also reasonable to
>expect a t, not a th, for the second consonant, since no American should
>have any problem pronouncing the t in a way that's indistinguishable from
>the German pronunciation.
>
>Peter Mc.
>
Unless they're pronouncing the name of the street in Chicago, which
(I'm told) is something approximating "go-EE-thee", not "GUR-tuh".

larry


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Fri Dec  6 00:34:36 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:34:36 -0500
Subject: Those ones
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.193436.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ed Keer asks for opinions on:

  >> I like these cars much better than those ones.

The word "ones" is superfluous; the sentence is therefore clumsy.

  >> I like these cars much better than those.

Fine.

  >> I like these green cars much better than those red ones.

Okay.

  >> I like these green cars much better than those red.

Those red WHAT?

You'll be welcome in CompuServe's grammar/usage section:

   http://go.compuserve.com/money?AREA=Msgs&SEC=15

--DS


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Fri Dec  6 00:34:37 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:34:37 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.193437.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Peter Richardson. Nice story!

--DS


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 00:39:13 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:39:13 -0500
Subject: More specifics on "Baseball been berry berry good to me"
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.193913.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It was indeed Garrett Morris, and the Mets' player he created was
"Chico Escuela".  A few years ago, Curt Schilling--a first-rate
pitcher and all-around all-American good guy (according to the usual
media portrayal) was caught on ESPN mocking Sammy Sosa's Dominican
accent (Sosa had just been interviewed after hitting several long
homers during the annual All-Star Weekend home-run derby) by saying
"Baseball been berry berry good to me".  According to one on-line
account of the incident, "Schilling's putdown--which, remarkably,
merited a single brief mention in the Miami Herald--highlights the
kind of derision still directed at Latin athletes."

Larry


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Fri Dec  6 00:34:35 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:34:35 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.193435.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David Bowie (REALLY???) writes,

  >> I have to admit that i'd *never* made any connection between the verb
  >> 'type' and the noun 'type'...

That's the stuff projecting from the little ball-thing that sits in the
middle of the Selectric. Or, on earlier machines, at the ends of levers,
where they actually constituted *movable type*, the levers being activated
(sort of like the hammers in a piano) by striking the keys on the keyboard.

The original machine was called a "type-writer." Sam Clemens (who was the
first person to write an entire book with the device) did a
testimonial-type ad for it.

--DS


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Dec  6 00:51:03 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:51:03 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <sdef53b8.095@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.195103.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More recent than Washington and Lincoln I reckon. Don't we get to
call stuff in our lifetime recent?

dInIs



>  >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 12/05/02 11:19AM >>>
>  >and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>
>Recent?

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Dec  6 00:52:45 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:52:45 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021205165237.00b5a680@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.195245.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't trust anybody who doesn't remember FDR. Couldn't this be a
new liberal mantra?

dInIs

>At 01:24 PM 12/5/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>  >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 12/05/02 11:19AM >>>
>>  >and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>>
>>Recent?
>
>It's all relative!  I was thinking post-WWII.  (Hey, I remember FDR.)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 01:00:51 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:00:51 -0500
Subject: language variation in the mainstream press
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021205140913.00b5a028@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.200051.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money move
>southward, as they now are.  Four presidents since LBJ have been from the
>South, and no one considers them dumb (well, maybe excepting the present
>one...), and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>didn't talk like the Eastern elite by any means.  Congressional, corporate,
>and even media leaders are increasingly from the South and Southwest.  So
>patience--as Labov concluded a talk he gave a few years ago at SECOL, the
>South shall rise again!
>
Speaking of Labov, there was a pretty good article in today's Times
(front page of section B) covering work by Ricardo Otheguy and other
sociolinguists on variation in the form and distribution of Spanish
pronoun forms among New York Latinos.  It mentions Labov's
dissertation research on "fourth floor" in NYC department stores and
in general struck me as well written, despite its references to "the
notorious...Noo Yawkese".  The writer, Janny Scott, isn't someone I
recall reading anything by in the past, but I found this one pretty
encouraging.

Larry


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Dec  6 01:06:25 2002
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:06:25 -0800
Subject: More specifics on "Baseball been berry berry good to me"
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.170625.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

i *think* this started as a private exchange between larry and me,
but maybe the topic is of general interest.

larry doesn't know this, but i asked him because, in an extravagantly
silly mood at the end of the quarter - will these oral exams never
stop? - i've been considering writing [note: *good* doubl-ing example]
a burlesque entitled "Homosexuality been berry berry good to me", in the
voice of an indiana farmboy who makes it to the pros.

ok, make that "terminally goofy"...

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Dec  6 01:15:27 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:15:27 -0800
Subject: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
In-Reply-To: <p04320411ba153e6a1292@[130.132.231.244]>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.171527.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yep, you're told right. (shudder!)

> Unless they're pronouncing the name of the street in Chicago, which
> (I'm told) is something approximating "go-EE-thee", not "GUR-tuh".


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Dec  6 01:26:56 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:26:56 -0500
Subject: Bougie/Bourgie
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021205141632.00a9e7d0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.202656.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 02:17:55PM -0500, Wendalyn Nichols wrote:
> Has anyone run into any printed examples of the short form of "bourgeois"
> that's pronounced "bougie"? I'm editing a text written by a black woman and
> she uses the "bougie" spelling; that's how it sounds when my husband says
> it but I've never seen it written.

There's an extensive entry in HDAS, showing a wide variety of differing
spellings....It's almost always pronounced BOO-zhee, whether spelled
bourgie or boojy or boojie or boogie or bourgie or some other things....

Jesse Sheidlower


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec  6 01:28:10 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:28:10 EST
Subject: Yanigan (1895)
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.202810.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I didn't have much time today to research the Philadelphia and Baltimore
newspapers.  I'll try again on Saturday.  There's no rush--the DICTIONARY OF
AMERICAN REGIONAL ENGLISH and the HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG
still aren't at "Y."
   1894 was not read.  I didn't see the term in Baltimore in 1895, but I
looked very quickly.


   26 March 1895, PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER, pg. 6, col. 1:
   The first or regular team of the Philadelphia Club rather rubbed it in on
the second or "Yanigan" nine this afternoon, and this evening Mike Grady has
been endeavoring to figure out how it all happened.

   21 March 1896, THE SUN (Baltimore), pg. 6, col. 4:
_Regulars and Yanigans of the Baltimore Team._


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 01:41:58 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:41:58 -0500
Subject: More specifics on "Baseball been berry berry good to me"
In-Reply-To: <200212060106.gB616PD05793@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.204158.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:06 PM -0800 12/5/02, Arnold Zwicky wrote:
>i *think* this started as a private exchange between larry and me,
>but maybe the topic is of general interest.
>
>larry doesn't know this, but i asked him because, in an extravagantly
>silly mood at the end of the quarter - will these oral exams never
>stop? - i've been considering writing [note: *good* doubl-ing example]
>a burlesque entitled "Homosexuality been berry berry good to me", in the
>voice of an indiana farmboy who makes it to the pros.
>
>ok, make that "terminally goofy"...
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

Oops, sorry Arnold, and list.  I wasn't being intentionally obscure.
Chemo brain again!

L


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Fri Dec  6 01:53:16 2002
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:53:16 -0600
Subject: obsolete term:  touch typing
In-Reply-To: <20021205050049.B814D4A31@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.195316.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Date:    Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:23:21 -0500
> From:    Frank Abate <abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET>
> Subject: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing
>
> Allan M said:
>
> >>
> Talking with a smart student tonight, I mentioned "touch typing" and
> she asked What's that? I explained it was typing using all of your
> fingers, without looking, what you learn in a typing class. To her,
> that was just "typing." Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left,
> to contrast "touch typing" with? <<
>
> I would say that this is evidence that the term is generational and
> perhaps fading, so maybe to be labeled "older" or even "obsolescent".
> But I and millions of others have it in our passive vocabulary, at
> least.  I remember touch typing courses and books, from the 50s and
> 60s.  In my high school (all boys) a typing class was required (I
> graduated in 1969).
>
> More evidence would be needed to nail down the status of this term.
> But this is a telling incident you're telling us, Allan.  Same kind of
> thing is happening re dial telephones (and the word "dial" re use of
> telephones), glass milk bottles (now in antique stores here, though
> still in daily use in the UK),

I've been told that half-pint milk bottles are  still used by
biologists for raising fruitflies. I don't know where the biologists
get them.

I think it was in the 1980's that I read a short piece (in New
Scientist?) about the half-pint milk bottle crisis.  Apparently, some
laboratory strains of fruit flies don't reproduce well in any other
kind of container.

 inkwells, and other such once-familiar
> aspects of our society, now fading or moribund.  Typewriters may soon
> join that list, but I still see them here and there, and there are
> some die-hard users of manual typewriters around.  One can still buy
> typewriter ribbons, maybe even at Staples, or Wal Mart.

What determines whether the word fades away, or is attached to a
replacement for the obsolete whatever?  I say "icebox" for
refrigerator.  That's uncommon enough for me to sometimes get funny
looks. But some others are common:  "glasses" for spectacles and
tumblers made of plastic, "broom" for besoms without any trace of a
broom plant.  And "cavalry" for military units which don't include
any horsemen.


From positive_pcr at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec  6 01:59:57 2002
From: positive_pcr at HOTMAIL.COM (positive pcr)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:59:57 -0500
Subject: "Not for nothing..." new meaning?
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.205957.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have lately observed the expression "not for nothing" used at the
beginning of a personal observation to mean something on the order of: "I
really don't want to say this but I feel I need to", as in:

"Not for nothing, but I think you've been wound a little tight lately."
Paulie "Walnuts" to Tony Soprano (Season 3, Episode 13, 20 May 2001).

And some Googled examples:

"Not for nothing, but look who's calling someone a pig." (4 Sept 2002)

"Not for nothing, but you D.C. motherf***ers couldn't keep a secret if
someone had a gun to your heads." (New York City, 15 March 2002)

"Not-For-Nothing But...If at anytime you don�t like what your reading, then
close your eyes!" (Dudley, Massachusetts, 29 April 2002)

Has anyone observed this new (to me) usage outside of the northeast? And any
earlier observances of it? I hear it more and more frequently in speech
originating around New York City, and have only started noticing it in
print, but it's one of those things that--now I am aware of it--pops up
everywhere.

thanks,
Graham (positive_pcr at hotmail.com)




_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Dec  6 02:18:34 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:18:34 EST
Subject: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.211834.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<< Unless they're pronouncing the name of the street in Chicago, which
(I'm told) is something approximating "go-EE-thee", not "GUR-tuh".

larry
 >>

My father was a professor of German at the U. of Chicago. He didn't have a
car, so once when he went to an event in the posh North Side neighborhood of
Goethe St he took the bus. He was careful to give the bus driver the proper
German pronunciation of the street name. It took considerable discussion
before the driver comprehended that he wanted to get off at go-EE-thee
street. - Allan Metcalf


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Dec  6 02:18:33 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:18:33 EST
Subject: icebox lives on
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.211833.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"icebox" has escaped obsolescence, because the machine that replaced the
icebox still is associated with ice. Ask a young person why it's sometimes
called an icebox, and the person will explain that's because it makes ice. -
Allan Metcalf


From Friolly at AOL.COM  Fri Dec  6 02:35:46 2002
From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:35:46 EST
Subject: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.213546.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I always cringe when I hear 'gur-tuh.'  The vowel of 'good' I think is a good
enough approximation for an English speaker.  I have also heard 'Getty.'  Did
the German writer have relatives who settled that little town in Penn that
gained fame in the CW?

As far as street names are concerned, 'Couch' street in Portland is 'Cooch,'
altho many people, esp out-of-towners, rhyme it with the piece of furniture.
Fritz

> << Unless they're pronouncing the name of the street in Chicago, which
> (I'm told) is something approximating "go-EE-thee", not "GUR-tuh".
>
> larry
> >>
>
> My father was a professor of German at the U. of Chicago. He didn't have a
> car, so once when he went to an event in the posh North Side neighborhood
> of
> Goethe St he took the bus. He was careful to give the bus driver the proper
> German pronunciation of the street name. It took considerable discussion
> before the driver comprehended that he wanted to get off at go-EE-thee
> street. - Allan Metcalf


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Fri Dec  6 03:10:48 2002
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:10:48 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.191048.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs:


> I don't trust anybody who doesn't remember FDR. Couldn't this be a
> new liberal mantra?


Hmmmmm. . . . .Guess you can't trust me, then.  But OTOH, I can remember
when you weren't supposed to trust anybody over 30. Does that make a
difference?
Anne G


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 03:43:16 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:43:16 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021205140913.00b5a028@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.224316.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:19 PM -0500 12/5/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money move
>southward, as they now are.  Four presidents since LBJ have been from the
>South, and no one considers them dumb (well, maybe excepting the present
>one...), and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>didn't talk like the Eastern elite by any means.

Actually I think there is some dialect prejudice at work here.  There
were (and for all I know still are) jokes about both Carter and
Clinton being dumb, even though by objective standards neither is the
case (Rhodes scholarship for Clinton, various honors for Carter, and
so on).  I suspect a lot of it had to do with them "sounding like
crackers", as I've heard it put, and some it specifically linked to
what people from Georgia or Arkansas are like. There may be a
disconnect in each case, part of which is presumably mediated by the
politics involved, but at least some of it by the dialect/accent.  I
don't recall similar jokes about Mondale, McGovern, or Dukakis,
although there were of course other sorts of jokes involved, as there
were about Ford, Bush Sr., Reagan, and especially Nixon.  In fact, a
nice minimal pair might be Ford vs. Carter or Clinton:  while there
were those jokes and routines about Ford not being able to walk and
chew gum at the same time, nobody (or not that many) made fun of the
way he talked or looked (remember the parodies of the Carter smile?)
or ate/farmed (remember the jokes about the peanuts?).  I don't think
regional prejudice can be entirely dismissed.

larry

P.S.  Consider too JFK vs. LBJ:  the latter was often treated as
dumb, the former never, although again objectively I think this would
be hard to support.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 03:52:28 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:52:28 -0500
Subject: Those ones
In-Reply-To: <20021205192123.4786.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.225228.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:21 AM -0800 12/5/02, Ed Keer wrote:
>I got a request to settle a grammar question today
>about the use of "those (exact) ones". My friends
>husband grew up in Oklahoma and was told to never use
>"ones" with "those". He gave her a hard time about the
>phrase "those exact ones". I have never heard of this
>prescriptive rule, but I must admit that "those ones"
>by itself sounds pretty bad to me. However, with an
>adjective it sounds fine. The following are my
>judgements:
>
>I like these cars much better than those ones. (not so
>good)
>
>I like these cars much better than those. (good)
>
>But
>
>I like these green cars much better than those red
>ones. (good)
>
>I like these green cars much better than those red.
>(not so good)
>

I don't know about the prescriptive rule, but there was a descriptive
rule popular in grammars written in the late '60's (back when
theoretical linguists actually wrote grammars) that deleted "ones"
after "those" and also cardinal numbers: cf. the oddness of "three
ones", "seven ones", "one one".  There are other factors involved:
compare your first example with the much better (to me)-sounding "I
like these pens better than those ones on the left" or "...those ones
behind them", although I'll grant that "the ones" might be more
natural than "those ones" even here.

larry


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Dec  6 03:57:37 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:57:37 EST
Subject: judgment/judgement (Again)
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.225737.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My memory is that JUDGMENT was one of the McCormick spelling reforms that the
old Chicago Tribune introduced in the earlier 20th Century (along with THO
for THOUGH). If so, this would definitely make JUDGMENT an Americanism. Does
anyone on ADS-L know about this?


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Fri Dec  6 05:43:43 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 00:43:43 -0500
Subject: judgment/judgement (Again)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.004343.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  >> My memory is that JUDGMENT was one of the McCormick spelling reforms
  >> that the old Chicago Tribune introduced in the earlier 20th Century...

I don't think so, since the 1864 Merriam-Webster unabridged, of which I
happen to have a copy, gave JUDGMENT as the sole spelling.

The M-W II (1934) said "judgment, judgement."

Currently:

The M-W 10th Collegiate says "judgment or judgement."

American Heritage 4 says "judgment, also judgement."

The current Random House gives "judgment" only as the head word but tacks
on to the end of the definition, "Also, esp. Brit., judgement."

--DS


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Fri Dec  6 06:53:08 2002
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 00:53:08 -0600
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 4 Dec 2002 to 5 Dec 2002 (#2002-314)
In-Reply-To: <20021206050159.49D144AA2@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.005308.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Date:    Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:19:41 -0500
> From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>
> I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money
> move southward, as they now are.  Four presidents since LBJ have been
> from the South, and no one considers them dumb (well, maybe excepting
> the present one...),

Eugene McCarthy has been quoted as saying "I would not entrust Jimmy
Carter and his band of merry men with the job of snake control in
Ireland."

> and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman
> and Eisenhower, didn't talk like the Eastern elite by any means.
> Congressional, corporate, and even media leaders are increasingly from
> the South and Southwest.  So patience--as Labov concluded a talk he
> gave a few years ago at SECOL, the South shall rise again!

Which, I suspect, won't solve the problem for people with the _wrong_
Southern accents. Or for those who come from places which "aren't
really part of the South."  And, of course, it might end up with
northerners being discriminated against on the basis of the way they
talk.

My native dialect (Hudson Valley) doesn't seem to be a handicap; Rod
Serling -- who to my ears is accentless -- did quite well, for
example.  I did have to adjust my vocabulary a bit for life in New
York City, a bit more for life in Los Angeles, and quite a bit more
for life in the Twin Cities.

I do have a speech problem, which is another matter.


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Fri Dec  6 07:07:52 2002
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 01:07:52 -0600
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <20021206050159.49D144AA2@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.010752.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Date:    Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:18:33 EST
> From:    AAllan at AOL.COM
> Subject: icebox lives on
>
> "icebox" has escaped obsolescence, because the machine that replaced
> the icebox still is associated with ice. Ask a young person why it's
> sometimes called an icebox, and the person will explain that's because
> it makes ice.

Thanks.

Now, what explains "broom" and "glasses"?


From Jim.Walker at WANADOO.FR  Fri Dec  6 07:18:44 2002
From: Jim.Walker at WANADOO.FR (Jim Walker)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 08:18:44 +0100
Subject: Two famous sport-related quotations
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021205175106.00a58550@po.pacific.net.au>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.081844.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Note from a UK football (or soccer, if you must) fan and lurker:

The second of your quotations, regarding life and death, is often attributed
to the legendary Bill Shankly, manager (or coach, if you will) of Liverpool
in the seventies. It may well be apocryphal, of course, but I've seen the
attribution on many an occasion. Shankly is revered in Liverpool, and this
quotation is part of his mystique in a sense.

Best regards

Jim

-----Message d'origine-----
De : American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]De la part
de Steve Cornelius
Envoyé : jeudi 5 décembre 2002 08:00
À : ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Objet : Two famous sport-related quotations


I'm looking for the earliest known citations for two quite famous
sport-related quotations.

The first is (something like) "Winning isn't everything - it's the only
thing".

The second (a response to a [journalist's?] question "Do you believe that
[enter name of game or sport] is a matter of life and death?"), is
(something like) "No, it's more important than that".

Can any ADS-L subscriber offer evidence, or perhaps just an opinion, on
either of these? They may or may not be of American origin.

Steve Cornelius
Sydney, Australia


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Dec  6 10:17:14 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 05:17:14 -0500
Subject: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.051714.0500.>

David and Bethany had the following exchange:

>>
On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, David Bowie wrote:

>Incidentally, typewriters are still a serious necessity, even for those of
>us raised with dedicated word processors and then later PCs--if you have to
>fill out a pre-printed form, nothing beats a typewriter. For this reason,
>all through college i found that i could guarantee a supply of devoted
>friends simply by letting it be known that i owned a typewriter.

Interesting. I gave my last typewriter away so that it would no longer
be possible for me to fill out a paper pre-printed form.
<<


I would add that typewriters are in use fairly widely, but in special
settings.  An office I work at, and other business places I've seen, use
them for forms that require carbon copies (yes, they are still used, and not
just for credit card receipts), and for address labels.  Recently I heard
one in use at a public library nearby (here in Conn.).  And one can still
buy a NEW typewriter, I believe, not just replacement ribbons.

Still, I see old manual typewriters in antique shops and such.

On a related note, dot-matrix and impact printers (the noisy ones), once
common in offices, are still in use, but only in certain places, again when
carbons are required.  One common use is in hotels, when they print out the
check-out bills for the guests -- the front desk keeps the carbon, the guest
gets the original (the top sheet).

Frank


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Dec  6 10:43:09 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 05:43:09 -0500
Subject: FW: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.054309.0500.>

Joanne D said:

>>
Here's a counter-example:  it's always struck me as funny that the
"Boston accent" seems to enjoy status outside eastern MA.
Whereas I grew up thinking of it as a sort of working-class dialect,
my friends from out of state associate it with the aristocratic
Kennedy clan.  On the other hand, a Latina friend from NYC just
howls at the way Bostonians pronounce "Nomar Garciaparra."
Those Bostonian aristocrats can't roll an "r" to save their lives, it
seems!
<<


It would make an interesting paper for an ADS meeting to present evidence of
current attitudes towards various "familiar" regional dialects in America.
Actually, probably a series of papers, then a book collecting them.  Takers?

In my own case, moving to western Massachusetts as I did in 1978 (having
lived prior to that only in the Midwest), I was amazed by the variety of
"accents" in New England.  There are at least two in and around Boston
(Brahmin vs. Kennedy/"Dawchestuh" type), then Rhode Island/SE Mass., then W
Mass., esp. W of the Conn. River (the Great "r-less" Divider; many people
who hail from Mass. and Conn. W of the river sound very much the same as
folks in upstate NY, and much closer to the Midwest "accent" than nearby E
Mass.).  The old Yankees of Maine and NH are also r-less, but with
differences from the folks from around Boston and south.

This has been widely studied and documented, of course, but things have
shifted, and new studies would are needed.  The various accents of NE got
laid down according to settlement patterns, and the fact that wide rivers
(like the Connecticut for much of its lower course) were once very difficult
to cross, so folks tended to live and have families on their own side.  Now
with travel across rivers, across anything really, so easy, the accents are
fading and melding somewhat.

All this is one reason why we will so much miss the likes of Don Lance.  His
updated edition of Kenyon's American Pronunciation is one sort of study that
needs redoing now, aside from something about common attitudes to "accents".

Frank Abate

PS: I always found Bug Bunny very funny, largely because of his Brooklynese.
Then I thought "All in the Family" was very funny, largely too because of
the Queens accents (or attempts at same).  Then I heard real people who
speak this way in NYC; to hear them is still is very striking to me.  So
yes, Jerry Cohen, you DO have an accent!


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Dec  6 11:17:15 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 06:17:15 -0500
Subject: ILA call for papers
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.061715.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The International Linguistic Association 43rd Annual Conference call
for papers may be viewed at
www.ilaword.org

David Barnhart
barnhart at highlands.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Dec  6 12:34:15 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:34:15 -0500
Subject: More specifics on "Baseball been berry berry good to me"
In-Reply-To: <200212060106.gB616PD05793@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.073415.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>arnold,

Having done research among Indiana farmboys (albeit not in the area
of their sexual preferences), I have not yet encountered the
astonishing /v/---> /b/ you describe. Since several of my doctoral
candidates (will this never end!) are writing dissertations on
various aspects of Midwestern English (sic), we hope you will be
willing to share your tapes so we can look at this phenomenon more
carefully.

dInIs

PS: I like 'terminally goofy' and, with your permission, will
immediately include in my set of self-descriptors.

>i *think* this started as a private exchange between larry and me,
>but maybe the topic is of general interest.
>
>larry doesn't know this, but i asked him because, in an extravagantly
>silly mood at the end of the quarter - will these oral exams never
>stop? - i've been considering writing [note: *good* doubl-ing example]
>a burlesque entitled "Homosexuality been berry berry good to me", in the
>voice of an indiana farmboy who makes it to the pros.
>
>ok, make that "terminally goofy"...
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Dec  6 12:37:09 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:37:09 -0500
Subject: Eastern Kentucky accent and UK accents
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.073709.0500.>

The following from Patrick Hanks is forwarded to the ADS-L at his request:

*******************
As a Brit, I have no idea what an Eastern Kentucky accent sounds like. (Is
it like the Everly Brothers? if so, that's a prestige accent where I come
from.)   Anyway, British English is rich in accent differences, so my
comments may be of interest.

I think there are two quite different notions buried in Stephani's protest:
"norm" and "correctness". The question is, was Stephani's professor
criticizing her accent on pragmatic grounds of deviation from widely
accepted norms (i.e. was he trying to help her with job-hunting in places
where Kentucky English is not understood or recognized) or was he just
being a pointless pedant trying to impose his own notion of correctness on
her Eastern Kentucky speech?  The distinction is crucial.

What he might have added was, "....if you want to teach English outside
Eastern Kentucky."

Here's a relevant cautionary tale:

A couple of decades ago, in Sweden, I learned more about English-language
teaching techniques from Jim, a Scottish colleague, than from anyone else
I've ever met.  His knowledge of pedagogical techniques was profoundly
illuminating, and he shared his expertise generously. He spoke a rich and
expressive form of Glaswegian English.  Unfortunately, his Glaswegian
accent was so strong that the course participants (including businessmen,
diplomats, and members of the Swedish and Norwegian parliaments) could
hardly understand a word he said. Cruelly, he got fired, while I, with my
southern British English accent, got all the credit for what he had taught
me, because my accent conformed to what the students had been led to
expect.  Stephani, do you want to end up like Jim, or can you bear to learn
"code switching"? Many Brits have one code of English for the home and
another for the workplace.  After all, if you applied for a job in Germany,
you might be expected to be competent in German, and this would in no way
be an attack on your heritage as a speaker of Eastern Kentucky English.

I mentioned the "Jim" experience (which troubled me) to John Spencer,
Professor of English at Leeds University (now Emeritus). He had an
interesting comment.  He said that he encouraged his students, who were
from West and South Africa, Austria, Eastern Europe, etc., etc. to develop
an accent that would combine local identifiability with international
comprehensibility. Ha! Easier said than done!  Anyway, John Spencer
actively discouraged "parrots" from sounding like Old Etonians.  You see, a
student with a good ear can sometimes produce perfect RP or General
American (it often happens), parrot-fashion, and this too can be a
disadvantage, because it generates false expections. The interlocutor is
led to expect that such a student's English comprehension will be as good
as their spoken English production.  So then the poor parrot gets lost, and
cannot bring themself to admit their comprehension failure.

[I hope you all enjoyed "themself:" in that last sentence  -- it is highly
relevant to "notions of correctness".]

In short, I think that, on the limited evidence before us, Stephani writes
so punchily that I doubt she will ever be short of a job for long -- though
it may not be an English teaching job, or at any rate not in parts of the
English-speaking world that are far distant from Eastern Kentucky, like New
York or Nigeria. If she expects New Yorkers and Nigerians to adjust to a
highly distinctive regional norm, she's on a hiding to nothing.  (Is "a
hiding to nothing" a British regionalism? Oh,
I'm. sorry....)

Code switching is an acquired skill. 500 years ago people like Erasmus did
it regularly between Dutch and medieval Latin; there's nothing bad about
asking Stephani to join those who can do it between General American
English and Eastern Kentucky English.  It's not a matter of asking her to
give up something; it's a matter of proposing to her that she should
acquire an additional communicative code for outside Easten Kentucky.


Patrick Hanks
Editor, Dictionary of American Family Names (forthcoming);
Lecturer, Department of Computer Science, Brandeis University;
Visiting Professor, Department of Informatics, Masaryk University, Brno,
Czech Republic;
***
Formerly Chief Editor, Oxford Current English Dictionaries;
Formerly Chief Editor, English Dictionaries, HarperCollins Publishers;
Formerly Visiting Scientist, AT&T Bell Laboratories;
Formerly Research Fellow, University of Birmingham, England;
Formerly Teacher of English for International Purposes, Furudals Bruk
Kurscentrum, Sweden;
Formerly British Council Course Organizer, In-Service Teacher Training,
Universities of Lodz and Katowice, Poland;
etc., etc.

[I thought it might be good to throw in a few of my credentials here,
although the current ones are least relevant]


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Dec  6 12:42:06 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:42:06 -0500
Subject: Walesa (was Goethe (and was: Which and Falaqa))
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021205171507.4185J-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.074206.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Why do some 'wrong' foreign pronunciations cause a shudder among the
well-educated and others not even get a wink. Nobody ever shuddered
when Lech Walesa (two Polish letters missing - hook on the 'e', bar
on the 'l') got called stuff far away from the phonotactically
possible English (and very close to accurate Polish) Vah-WEN-sah?
(Stressed syllable in caps.)

Could it simply be that poor old Lech is not part of a literary canon?

dInIs

PS: Actually, the above string is of course phonotactically
impossible for speakers of more standard dialects of US English. The
representation should be vah-WIN-sah, since SUSE (Standard US
English) lack /E/ (the vowel of 'bet') before nasals.



>Yep, you're told right. (shudder!)
>
>>  Unless they're pronouncing the name of the street in Chicago, which
>>  (I'm told) is something approximating "go-EE-thee", not "GUR-tuh".

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Dec  6 12:50:43 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:50:43 -0500
Subject: Bougie/Bourgie
In-Reply-To: <20021206012655.GD6021@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.075043.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > Has anyone run into any printed examples of the short form of "bourgeois"
> > that's pronounced "bougie"? I'm editing a text written by a black woman and
> > she uses the "bougie" spelling; that's how it sounds when my husband says
> > it but I've never seen it written.
>
>There's an extensive entry in HDAS, showing a wide variety of differing
>spellings....It's almost always pronounced BOO-zhee, whether spelled
>bourgie or boojy or boojie or boogie or bourgie or some other things....

I've run into the word "bougie" many times ... but it doesn't mean
"bourgeois" to me.

Is/was the double-entendre intended?

-- Doug Wilson


From THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 13:40:41 2002
From: THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 08:40:41 -0500
Subject: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.084041.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've known people of the name Goethe and the similar Goette in the
southeastern U. S. who pronounced their names, respectively, "Gertie" and
"Gatey."

Thom Harrison

-----Original Message-----
From: Fritz Juengling [mailto:Friolly at AOL.COM]
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:36 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)


I always cringe when I hear 'gur-tuh.'  The vowel of 'good' I think is a
good
enough approximation for an English speaker.  I have also heard 'Getty.'
Did
the German writer have relatives who settled that little town in Penn that
gained fame in the CW?

As far as street names are concerned, 'Couch' street in Portland is 'Cooch,'
altho many people, esp out-of-towners, rhyme it with the piece of furniture.
Fritz

> << Unless they're pronouncing the name of the street in Chicago, which
> (I'm told) is something approximating "go-EE-thee", not "GUR-tuh".
>
> larry
> >>
>
> My father was a professor of German at the U. of Chicago. He didn't have a
> car, so once when he went to an event in the posh North Side neighborhood
> of
> Goethe St he took the bus. He was careful to give the bus driver the
proper
> German pronunciation of the street name. It took considerable discussion
> before the driver comprehended that he wanted to get off at go-EE-thee
> street. - Allan Metcalf


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Fri Dec  6 14:37:02 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:37:02 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <3DEFF868.25878.46F195@localhost>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.093702.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Dan Goodman wrote:

>Now, what explains "broom"

As in "that thing I remove debris on the floor with"?

 and "glasses"?

As in the "reading glasses" i now purchase for $6 a pair, since I had
Lasik surgery?

Bethany


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Dec  6 15:55:46 2002
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:55:46 -0800
Subject: More specifics on "Baseball been berry berry good to me"
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.075546.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs, in response to me:
 >Having done research among Indiana farmboys (albeit not in the area
 >of their sexual preferences), I have not yet encountered the
 >astonishing /v/---> /b/ you describe. Since several of my doctoral
 >candidates (will this never end!) are writing dissertations on
 >various aspects of Midwestern English (sic), we hope you will be
 >willing to share your tapes so we can look at this phenomenon more
 >carefully

closer inspection of my fieldnotes suggests that this is a one-off
imitation of SNL.  i hope to investigate further soon; the informant
in question is now, no surprise, living in san francisco.  tapes
might be inadvisable, however.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM  Fri Dec  6 16:10:53 2002
From: TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM (Joyce, Thomas F.)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:10:53 -0600
Subject: Icebox lives on
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.101053.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I still refer to the refrigerator as the "icebox," although my wife and kids tease me about this.  Besides reminding me of how my parents spoke, it is just too good an example of Anglo-Saxon word formation to give up without a fight.


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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 16:27:50 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:27:50 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0212060935541.6467-100000@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.112750.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Dan Goodman wrote:
>
>>Now, what explains "broom"
>
>As in "that thing I remove debris on the floor with"?
>
>  and "glasses"?
>
>As in the "reading glasses" i now purchase for $6 a pair, since I had
>Lasik surgery?
>
I think the idea was that brooms aren't made from broom any longer,
nor are glasses made from glass, but we still call them by those
names.

L


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 16:31:52 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:31:52 -0500
Subject: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
In-Reply-To: <D6166D55BA96D511BEDE00105A1901320158721C@mail.maconstate.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.113152.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:40 AM -0500 12/6/02, Thom Harrison wrote:
>I've known people of the name Goethe and the similar Goette in the
>southeastern U. S. who pronounced their names, respectively, "Gertie" and
>"Gatey."
>
>Thom Harrison
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Fritz Juengling [mailto:Friolly at AOL.COM]
>Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:36 PM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
>
>
>I always cringe when I hear 'gur-tuh.'  The vowel of 'good' I think is a
>good
>enough approximation for an English speaker.  I have also heard 'Getty.'

If the speaker pronounces the first syllable like "good" without the
"d" and the second syllable like the "tuh" of "tomorrow" or "to me"
(instead of with the usual flap), it comes pretty close.

L


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Dec  6 16:41:04 2002
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:41:04 -0500
Subject: Eastern Kentucky accent and UK accents
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAOEEGDGAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.114104.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

But recall my comments on the difficulty of acquiring a second
dialect/accent past adolescence, for which there is considerable research
evidence.  However, that said, some accommodation may be made, certainly in
lexicon, somewhat less in grammar (as in giving up "needs washed" in favor
of "needs to be washed" or "needs washing"--not at all easy for native
users of the first form), and maybe to at least a "comprehensible" degree
in pronunciation (as Spencer suggested).

Hiring practices are a toughie.  Our ESL program refused, until just a few
years ago, to hire anyone but native American English speakers of a
"general" Northern/Midwestern accent--no Brits need apply!  The first
outsider they hired was a Malaysian English speaker with a long history of
EFL teaching and a semi-British English accent; the next two were actual
Brits (one RP-ish and the other resolutely not); another was a Scotsman who
reluctantly used SBE in the classroom but protested its "forced" spread
around the world; and now it has hired a Bulgarian guy whose English is
closer to AmEng than BritEng but who clearly has a NNS accent.  And in
between, it has finally hired several Southern and South Midland
Americans.  But one TA commented just the other day that the Southern
Alabama TA last year "changed" her speech for the sake of her ESL
students--not at all true, in my hearing, but testimony to the power of the
prescriptivist myth that even twists listeners' perceptions of their own
colleagues' speech!

On attitudes:  One of the British teachers in our ESL program did a
subjective reaction test (using taped voices but no other identifiers) of
ESL students for my Sociolinguistics class and found that "very
comprehensible" was the key factor; it happened to correlate positively
with another Brit voice, but written comments said "she talked slow,"
"repeated and rephrased often," "used varied intonation patterns,"
etc.  "Pleasant," "cultivated," "highly educated-sounding," etc. ranged all
over the various voices.  She interpreted this as common sense; training in
HOW to talk with new listeners (whether NNSs or others unfamiliar with the
local or national speech) is the critical factor.  My grad students
jokingly call me Road Runner because of my fast Minnesota speech, but I
know how to adjust when I have non-natives in the class!  I'd suggest the
same approach to Stephani and others.

Frank, perhaps you could forward this to Patrick Hanks, who's obviously had
experience in this area too.  (But the Everly Brothers?!)

Beverly Olson Flanigan
Associate Professor of Linguistics
Ohio University
Athens, OH  45701
www.ohiou.edu/linguistics/


At 07:37 AM 12/6/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>The following from Patrick Hanks is forwarded to the ADS-L at his request:
>
>*******************
>As a Brit, I have no idea what an Eastern Kentucky accent sounds like. (Is
>it like the Everly Brothers? if so, that's a prestige accent where I come
>from.)   Anyway, British English is rich in accent differences, so my
>comments may be of interest.
>
>I think there are two quite different notions buried in Stephani's protest:
>"norm" and "correctness". The question is, was Stephani's professor
>criticizing her accent on pragmatic grounds of deviation from widely
>accepted norms (i.e. was he trying to help her with job-hunting in places
>where Kentucky English is not understood or recognized) or was he just
>being a pointless pedant trying to impose his own notion of correctness on
>her Eastern Kentucky speech?  The distinction is crucial.
>
>What he might have added was, "....if you want to teach English outside
>Eastern Kentucky."
>
>Here's a relevant cautionary tale:
>
>A couple of decades ago, in Sweden, I learned more about English-language
>teaching techniques from Jim, a Scottish colleague, than from anyone else
>I've ever met.  His knowledge of pedagogical techniques was profoundly
>illuminating, and he shared his expertise generously. He spoke a rich and
>expressive form of Glaswegian English.  Unfortunately, his Glaswegian
>accent was so strong that the course participants (including businessmen,
>diplomats, and members of the Swedish and Norwegian parliaments) could
>hardly understand a word he said. Cruelly, he got fired, while I, with my
>southern British English accent, got all the credit for what he had taught
>me, because my accent conformed to what the students had been led to
>expect.  Stephani, do you want to end up like Jim, or can you bear to learn
>"code switching"? Many Brits have one code of English for the home and
>another for the workplace.  After all, if you applied for a job in Germany,
>you might be expected to be competent in German, and this would in no way
>be an attack on your heritage as a speaker of Eastern Kentucky English.
>
>I mentioned the "Jim" experience (which troubled me) to John Spencer,
>Professor of English at Leeds University (now Emeritus). He had an
>interesting comment.  He said that he encouraged his students, who were
>from West and South Africa, Austria, Eastern Europe, etc., etc. to develop
>an accent that would combine local identifiability with international
>comprehensibility. Ha! Easier said than done!  Anyway, John Spencer
>actively discouraged "parrots" from sounding like Old Etonians.  You see, a
>student with a good ear can sometimes produce perfect RP or General
>American (it often happens), parrot-fashion, and this too can be a
>disadvantage, because it generates false expections. The interlocutor is
>led to expect that such a student's English comprehension will be as good
>as their spoken English production.  So then the poor parrot gets lost, and
>cannot bring themself to admit their comprehension failure.
>
>[I hope you all enjoyed "themself:" in that last sentence  -- it is highly
>relevant to "notions of correctness".]
>
>In short, I think that, on the limited evidence before us, Stephani writes
>so punchily that I doubt she will ever be short of a job for long -- though
>it may not be an English teaching job, or at any rate not in parts of the
>English-speaking world that are far distant from Eastern Kentucky, like New
>York or Nigeria. If she expects New Yorkers and Nigerians to adjust to a
>highly distinctive regional norm, she's on a hiding to nothing.  (Is "a
>hiding to nothing" a British regionalism? Oh,
>I'm. sorry....)
>
>Code switching is an acquired skill. 500 years ago people like Erasmus did
>it regularly between Dutch and medieval Latin; there's nothing bad about
>asking Stephani to join those who can do it between General American
>English and Eastern Kentucky English.  It's not a matter of asking her to
>give up something; it's a matter of proposing to her that she should
>acquire an additional communicative code for outside Easten Kentucky.
>
>
>Patrick Hanks
>Editor, Dictionary of American Family Names (forthcoming);
>Lecturer, Department of Computer Science, Brandeis University;
>Visiting Professor, Department of Informatics, Masaryk University, Brno,
>Czech Republic;
>***
>Formerly Chief Editor, Oxford Current English Dictionaries;
>Formerly Chief Editor, English Dictionaries, HarperCollins Publishers;
>Formerly Visiting Scientist, AT&T Bell Laboratories;
>Formerly Research Fellow, University of Birmingham, England;
>Formerly Teacher of English for International Purposes, Furudals Bruk
>Kurscentrum, Sweden;
>Formerly British Council Course Organizer, In-Service Teacher Training,
>Universities of Lodz and Katowice, Poland;
>etc., etc.
>
>[I thought it might be good to throw in a few of my credentials here,
>although the current ones are least relevant]


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Dec  6 17:03:56 2002
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:03:56 -0500
Subject: judgment/judgement (Again)
In-Reply-To: <9.3e0a46e.2b217a31@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.120356.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:57 PM 12/5/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>My memory is that JUDGMENT was one of the McCormick spelling reforms that the
>old Chicago Tribune introduced in the earlier 20th Century (along with THO
>for THOUGH). If so, this would definitely make JUDGMENT an Americanism. Does
>anyone on ADS-L know about this?

And "acknowledgment" too?  (I still stubbornly add an 'e'.)


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Dec  6 17:02:40 2002
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:02:40 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <p04320401ba15cad9515e@[130.132.245.164]>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.120240.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:43 PM 12/5/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>At 2:19 PM -0500 12/5/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money move
>>southward, as they now are.  Four presidents since LBJ have been from the
>>South, and no one considers them dumb (well, maybe excepting the present
>>one...), and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>>didn't talk like the Eastern elite by any means.
>
>Actually I think there is some dialect prejudice at work here.  There
>were (and for all I know still are) jokes about both Carter and
>Clinton being dumb, even though by objective standards neither is the
>case (Rhodes scholarship for Clinton, various honors for Carter, and
>so on).  I suspect a lot of it had to do with them "sounding like
>crackers", as I've heard it put, and some it specifically linked to
>what people from Georgia or Arkansas are like. There may be a
>disconnect in each case, part of which is presumably mediated by the
>politics involved, but at least some of it by the dialect/accent.  I
>don't recall similar jokes about Mondale, McGovern, or Dukakis,
>although there were of course other sorts of jokes involved, as there
>were about Ford, Bush Sr., Reagan, and especially Nixon.  In fact, a
>nice minimal pair might be Ford vs. Carter or Clinton:  while there
>were those jokes and routines about Ford not being able to walk and
>chew gum at the same time, nobody (or not that many) made fun of the
>way he talked or looked (remember the parodies of the Carter smile?)
>or ate/farmed (remember the jokes about the peanuts?).  I don't think
>regional prejudice can be entirely dismissed.
>
>larry
>
>P.S.  Consider too JFK vs. LBJ:  the latter was often treated as
>dumb, the former never, although again objectively I think this would
>be hard to support.

You're right, of course; I was idealistically looking both backward and
forward.  But Ford and Mondale, with their "older" Michigan and Minnesota
voices, were mocked a bit, weren't they?  (Cf. the woman in "American
Tongues" who says Wisconsinites "sound like they're Norwegian.")  On
JFK:  I wonder if he benefited somewhat from the good memories of FDR,
whose upper-class NY speech must have sounded strange to Midwesterners in
the 30s but who did good things "in spite of" his origins?  As someone else
pointed out, JFK was hardly a Brahmin (with his intrusive /r/, for
example), but he looked elite and posh--not for nothing, I might add.


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Dec  6 17:06:43 2002
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:06:43 -0500
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 4 Dec 2002 to 5 Dec 2002 (#2002-314)
In-Reply-To: <3DEFF4F4.6926.397243@localhost>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.120643.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:53 AM 12/6/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> > Date:    Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:19:41 -0500
> > From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> > Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
> >
> > I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money
> > move southward, as they now are.  Four presidents since LBJ have been
> > from the South, and no one considers them dumb (well, maybe excepting
> > the present one...),
>
>Eugene McCarthy has been quoted as saying "I would not entrust Jimmy
>Carter and his band of merry men with the job of snake control in
>Ireland."

Yes, alas, Gene McCarthy (who I campaigned for in my old Minnesota days)
fell prey to elitism. . . .


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Dec  6 16:26:49 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:26:49 -0500
Subject: BALLIOL (was: Goethe, was: Which and Falaqa)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.112649.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: <AAllan at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)


> << Unless they're pronouncing the name of the street in Chicago, which
> (I'm told) is something approximating "go-EE-thee", not "GUR-tuh".
>
> larry
>  >>
>
> My father was a professor of German at the U. of Chicago. He didn't have a
> car, so once when he went to an event in the posh North Side neighborhood
of
> Goethe St he took the bus. He was careful to give the bus driver the
proper
> German pronunciation of the street name. It took considerable discussion
> before the driver comprehended that he wanted to get off at go-EE-thee
> street. - Allan Metcalf

THIS PROBABLY QUALIFIES AS THE LOVELIEST EXCHANGE OF THE YEAR ON ADS-L,
THOUGH NO CIGAR! Incidentally, I'm reminded of "Balliol St." in Toronto
which is correctly pronounced locally as (buh.LOIL) unless that has changed
in recent times!

t.m.p.


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Dec  6 17:48:04 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:48:04 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <p04320401ba168057b568@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.124804.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Larry writes:
>I think the idea was that brooms aren't made from broom any longer,
>nor are glasses made from glass, but we still call them by those
>names.
>
>L
~~~~~~
Not entirely true.  I still buy brooms made from broom corn, and my glasses
have glass lenses (which I specify, since the plastic ones scratch far too
readily).
A.Murie


From Dialectap at AOL.COM  Fri Dec  6 17:55:52 2002
From: Dialectap at AOL.COM (Your Name)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:55:52 EST
Subject: Icebox lives on
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.125552.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And then there is "tin" foil = aluminum foil.  (Maybe this was mentioned
earlier.)
Allyn P.


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:09:45 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:09:45 -0800
Subject: Those ones
In-Reply-To: <200212051934_MC3-1-1E69-45F2@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.100945.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Dodi Schultz <SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM> wrote:
> Ed Keer asks for opinions on:
>
>   >> I like these cars much better than those ones.
>
> The word "ones" is superfluous; the sentence is
> therefore clumsy.


I agree. But, I wonder why it's superfluous when a
sentence like:

I like this car much better than that one.

is fine. I could imagine a generative syntax/semantics
analysis. Just wondering if anyone was aware of any
work on it.

Also, it seems that "those ones" was perfectly fine in
earlier English, at least according to Jespersen. So
is this new?

Ed

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From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:14:37 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:14:37 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021206120505.00af69e0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.131437.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        [Dan Goodman -- Bev, your reply attributes this as "you said"]
#>Eugene McCarthy has been quoted as saying "I would not entrust Jimmy
#>Carter and his band of merry men with the job of snake control in
#>Ireland."

        [Beverly Flanigan]
#Yes, alas, Gene McCarthy (who I campaigned for in my old Minnesota days)
#fell prey to elitism. . . .

Excuse me, but where does that quotation imply any connection with Jimmy
Carter's accent or region of origin? There are lots and lots of reasons
for one politician to put down another one, and some of them are even
legitimate.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:16:48 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:16:48 -0500
Subject: BALLIOL (was: Goethe, was: Which and Falaqa)
In-Reply-To: <03cf01c29d4d$35b210e0$0725e440@co611769a>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.131648.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY wrote:

#THIS PROBABLY QUALIFIES AS THE LOVELIEST EXCHANGE OF THE YEAR ON ADS-L,
#THOUGH NO CIGAR! Incidentally, I'm reminded of "Balliol St." in Toronto
#which is correctly pronounced locally as (buh.LOIL) unless that has changed
#in recent times!

Have you heard what Philly does to all the lovely-looking (to my eye)
Welsh place names around here? At least Bala Cynwyd is, I think, still
given a hard "c" (/k/).

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:18:14 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:18:14 -0500
Subject: Bougie/Bourgie
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021206074106.047a22b0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.131814.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

#I've run into the word "bougie" many times ... but it doesn't mean
#"bourgeois" to me.
#
#Is/was the double-entendre intended?

Double entendre?

French word for 'candle'? "Bo(o)gie-man"? "Boogie on down"? "Booger"
'piece of snot'?

-- Mark A. Mandel


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:25:42 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:25:42 -0800
Subject: BALLIOL (was: Goethe, was: Which and Falaqa)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212061315100.77669293-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.102542.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Have you heard what Philly does to all the
> lovely-looking (to my eye)
> Welsh place names around here? At least Bala Cynwyd
> is, I think, still
> given a hard "c" (/k/).
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel

Yup!

Ed

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From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:40:12 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:40:12 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <p04320401ba168057b568@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.134012.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:

#I think the idea was that brooms aren't made from broom any longer,

It's turned around. Honestly, now, how old were you when you first read
of -- I won't say heard of -- the broom plant, and what did you think of
when you did? I can barely imagine how any modern L1 English speaker
would see "broom" 'sweeping tool' as derivative; it's just the name of
the thing, like "brush" or "sponge" (It GROWS? In the SEA? You gotta be
kidding me! This block of cellulose?).

#nor are glasses made from glass,

Either optical or drinking.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:41:58 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:41:58 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <200212040315.gB43FIA12345@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.134158.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Because I was a dork as a child, I was fascinated by typewriters: I
started copying stuff out of the atlas when I was about 4, using my mom's
nonelectric typewriter; one of the first purchases I bought in high school
when I got a job was an electric typewriter. I typed a lot after school
growing up, mostly coming up with lists, inventing latinesque languages,
and writing really bad adolescent fiction.

The point is, I never had a formal typing class, yet I type very rapidly
-- I would suspect that for many kids nowdays who learn to type from a
young age they learn to quickly type by some idiosyncratic system.

I don't know how I type like I do -- another interesting tidbit -- a few
years ago I bought a split keyboard for work to reduce hand pain (it did),
and I assumed I'd have some annoying learning curve in using the new
keyboard -- but, no, I took to it like a duck to water from the word go.

-- Steve


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:50:03 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:50:03 -0500
Subject: Which and Falaqa
In-Reply-To: <20021205144953.90627.qmail@web9701.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.135003.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, James Smith wrote:

#"Koran" is seen as "Q'run" more frequently.

Than what? I have *never* seen "Q'run" for "Koran", or anything else
AFIAR; out of context I would pronounce it "kyoo-run". I have
occasionally seen "Qur'an" (optional macron on the "a").

-- Mark A. Mandel


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Fri Dec  6 19:13:17 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:13:17 -0800
Subject: Eastern Kentucky accent and UK accents
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.111317.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>> flanigan at OHIO.EDU 12/06/02 08:41AM >>>

>>Hiring practices are a toughie.  Our ESL program refused, until just a few
>>years ago, to hire anyone but native American English speakers of a
>>"general" Northern/Midwestern accent--no Brits need apply!

Didn't we just have the results of a perception test about 3 weeks ago in which it was determined that Texans are the most honest, etc, etc.?  Maybe Stephani should look through the archives and find the results of that investigation.  I don't know what her prof really meant or his attitudes, but those findings are surely food for thought for her.

 >>My grad students jokingly call me Road Runner because of my fast Minnesota speech,

That's very interesting, Beverly, because one of the stereotypes of MN speech is that it is very slooowww. Remember Howard Mohr's "How to Talk Minnesotan"? (At least I think it was Howard)
Fritz


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 19:27:29 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:27:29 -0500
Subject: Stella Liebeck  & McDonalds Coffee (fwd)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.142729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Since there was a recent thread here touching on "tart lawyers" and the
McDonald's case, I thought posting a message from another listserv (with
the author's permission) on this subject might be of interest to some of
you.  I know this is wildly off-topic, but, hell, if Barry hasn't been
kicked off yet for off-topic-ness I should be safe.

Fred Shapiro



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 14:16:58 -0500
From: Chris Shaver <cc_shaver at hotmail.com>
To: law-lib at ucdavis.edu
Subject: Re: Stella Liebeck  & McDonalds Coffee

To this day, the Stella Liebeck story is still quite a contentious issue.
Just his morning I got 2 emails from different friends, purporting to tell
me about all of the unfair jury awards this event spawned.  Since I work at
a high paying job and have tons of free time on my hands and an insatiable
curiosity about Urban Legends, I'll share with you all what I've found.

First, ALL of the other stories, posted at the bottom are false, every one
of them!  Check these 2 pages out for confirmation.

http://www.stellaawards.com/ and  http://www.stellaawards.com/bogus.html

Next, some background that I researched about the whole Stella Liebeck
story...Both against and for the issue!

February 1992, the infamous date that took the "happy" out of the Happy
Meal.  79-year-old Stella Liebeck of Albuquerque, New Mexico was in the
passenger seat of her grandson's car when she was severely burned at
McDonalds. Liebeck received a cup of coffee that was served in a Styrofoam
cup at the drive-through window, and the rest is history.

Her sweatpants absorbed the scalding coffee and stuck it to her skin. A
vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered third-degree burns over 6%
of her body, including her inner thighs, perineum (the space between her
anus and her vagina), buttocks, and genital and groin areas. She spent a
week in the hospital, and underwent skin grafting.

She sought a settlement of $2,000 and McDonalds refused. Now, common sense
would dictate McDonalds should easily defeat such a frivolous a lawsuit, but
they failed to reason in the X Factor: a dumb jury.  In 1994 they awarded
Liebeck, now 81 years old, $200,000 in compensatory damages, reduced to
$160,000 because the jury found Liebeck only 20% at fault in the spill.

The jury also awarded Liebeck $2.7 million in punitive damages, equalling
approximately two days of McDonalds' coffee sales. The court later reduced
the punitive award to $480,000, or three times compensatory damages, even
though the judge called McDonalds' conduct "reckless, callous and wilful".
Right, it's reckless, callous and wilful to make hot coffee hot.

There was later a "secret" settlement, so the final tally will never be
known.

But there is another side to this "travesty of justice". You probably never
heard that after the week in an Albuquerque hospital, she spent about three
weeks recuperating at home with her daughter. Then she was hospitalized
again for skin grafts. She had lost 20 pounds - down to 83 pounds - and was
practically immobilized. The grafts were almost as painful as the burn.

Mrs. Liebeck initially wrote to McDonald's asking the company to turn down
the coffee temperature. She was not planning to sue but she thought she was
entitled to her out-of-pocket expenses, about $2,000, plus lost wages of her
daughter who stayed home to care for her.  McDonald's offered her $800.00.

She then did what many aggrieved people do. She went hunting for a lawyer.
That lawyer eventually took her case to the cornerstone of your justice
system: a jury. At first, this was a jury that was annoyed at having to
listen to a case about spilled coffee. But they learned three interesting
things that changed their minds.

A/ That coffee at 170 degrees Fahrenheit would cause second-degree burns
within 3.5 seconds of hitting the skin.

B/ That McDonalds heats their coffee almost 20 degrees higher than other
"fast food" restaurants.

C/ Finally, that McDonalds had not lowered the heat under the coffee despite
receiving over 700 burn complaints over the previous 10 years.

This tends to put a different spin on the whole "spurious litigation"
aspect, doesn't it?  Yet, you'll still probably say she was an idiot for
putting a hot coffee cup in her lap in the first place.

Let me tell you Stella Liebeck's REAL story.

That morning she did not have time for breakfast because her son was taking
an early flight out of Albuquerque, so she left at dawn for the 60-mile trip
to the airport from Santa Fe. After she dropped Jim off, she and her
grandson stopped at McDonald's for breakfast. She ordered breakfast in the
drive through lane and then her grandson parked the car so she could add
some cream and sugar to her coffee She tugged at the cup to try to get the
top off.

Still pretty stupid, eh? BUT...her dashboard was slanted and she had no cup
holder in the Ford Probe. So she put the cup between her knees and tried to
pull the top off. She tugged and scalding coffee gushed into her lap. She
screamed and Chris leaped from the car to help her.  Desperately, she pulled
at her sweat suit squirming in a bucket seat as the coffee seared her skin
By the time they reached an emergency room, second and third degree burns
had spread across her buttocks and her lap.

What amazed me about all this was that her lawyer never had the idea to sue
Ford over the bad design of the Probe, that forced her to do something that
her common sense dictated was stupid.  After all, if she was really that
stupid, she probably wouldn't have lived to see 81.

Here are all the BOGUS Stella Award nominees that are floating around the
Internet via email right now...

"It's time once again to consider the candidates for the annual Stella
Awards."   The Stella's are named after 81-year-old Stella Liebeck who
spilled coffee on herself and successfully sued McDonalds.

That case inspired the Stella awards for the most frivolous successful
lawsuits in the United States. The following are NOT this year's candidates,
they are just Urban Legends.

1. A jury of her peers awarded Kathleen Robertson of Austin, Texas, $780,000
after breaking her ankle tripping over a toddler who was running inside a
furniture store. The owners of the store were understandably surprised at
the verdict, considering the misbehaving little toddler was Ms. Robertson's
son.

2. A 19-year-old Carl Truman of Los Angeles won $74,000 and medical expenses
when his neighbour ran over his hand with a Honda Accord. Mr. Truman
apparently didn't notice there was someone at the wheel of the car when he
was trying to steal his neighbour's hubcaps.

3. Terrence Dickson of Bristol, Pennsylvania, was leaving a house he had
just finished robbing by way of the garage. He was not able to get the
garage door to go up since the automatic door opener was malfunctioning. He
couldn't re-enter the house because the door connecting the house and garage
locked when he pulled it shut. The family was on vacation, and Mr. Dickson
found himself locked in the garage for eight days. He subsisted on a case of
Pepsi he found, and a large bag of dry dog food. He sued the homeowner's
insurance claiming the situation caused him undue mental anguish. The jury
agreed to the tune of $500,000.

4. Jerry Williams of Little Rock, Arkansas, was awarded $14,500 and medical
expenses after being bitten on the buttocks by his next-door neighbour's
beagle. The beagle was on a chain in its owner's fenced yard. The award was
less than sought because the jury felt the dog might have been just a little
provoked at the time by Mr. Williams who was shooting it repeatedly with a
pellet gun.

5. A Philadelphia restaurant was ordered to pay Amber Carson of Lancaster,
Pennsylvania, $113,500 after she slipped on a soft drink and broke her
coccyx (tailbone). The beverage was on the floor because Ms. Carson had
thrown it at her boyfriend 30 seconds earlier during an argument.

6. Kara Walton of Claymont, Delaware, successfully sued the owner of a
nightclub in a neighbouring city when she fell from the bathroom window to
the floor and knocked out her two front teeth. This occurred while Ms.
Walton was trying to sneak through the window in the ladies room to avoid
paying the $3.50 cover charge. She was awarded $12,000 and dental expenses.

7. This year's favourite could easily be Mr. Merv Grazinski of Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma. Mr. Grazinski purchased a brand new 32-foot Winnebago motor
home. On his first trip home, having driven onto the freeway, he set the
cruise control at 70 mph and calmly left the drivers seat to go into the
back and make himself a cup of coffee. Not surprisingly, the RV left the
freeway, crashed and overturned. Mr. Grazinski sued Winnebago for not
advising him in the owner's manual that he couldn't actually do this. The
jury awarded him $1,750,000 plus a new motor home. The company actually
changed their manuals on the basis of this suit, just in case there were any
other complete morons buying their recreation vehicles.

Best regards,

Chris Shaver, BSW
Coordinator/Employment Counsellor
St. Charles Mountain Adult Education Centre
Employment Assistance Resource Centre
150 East 5th Street, Hamilton, ON   L9A 2Z8
Pager: (905) 974 - 6213 Fax: (905) 575 - 5021 Phone: (905) 575 - 5021
Open 9 AM to 9 PM Mon. to Thurs., 10 AM to 4 PM Fri. & Sat., Closed Sunday


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 19:32:52 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:32:52 -0500
Subject: BALLIOL (was: Goethe, was: Which and Falaqa)
In-Reply-To: <03cf01c29d4d$35b210e0$0725e440@co611769a>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.143252.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:26 AM -0500 12/6/02, THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY wrote:
>  Incidentally, I'm reminded of "Balliol St." in Toronto
>which is correctly pronounced locally as (buh.LOIL) unless that has changed
>in recent times!
>

Can that be right?  Looks like another entry for the
"Favre"/"Malivai" metathesis file.
And it doesn't even have the excuse of "It's my name, and I can
pronounce it that way if I want to!"

Larry


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 19:33:32 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:33:32 -0500
Subject: More on Stella Liebeck  & McDonalds Coffee (fwd)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.143332.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A little more info from the poster of the McDonald's message:  He asks me
to point out that the previous message was a synthesis of over 60
different websites and discussion boards.  Also, he wants to add that he
found that the original request to McDonald's was $20,000, not $2,000, but
that almost two years of physical therapy were required.

Fred Shapiro


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 19:42:59 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:42:59 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <l03130303ba1692988d14@[12.107.142.212]>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.144259.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:48 PM -0500 12/6/02, sagehen wrote:
>  Larry writes:
>>I think the idea was that brooms aren't made from broom any longer,
>>nor are glasses made from glass, but we still call them by those
>>names.
>>
>>L
>~~~~~~
>Not entirely true.  I still buy brooms made from broom corn, and my glasses
>have glass lenses (which I specify, since the plastic ones scratch far too
>readily).
>A.Murie

Sorry, I meant "not necessarily".  Our use of "broom" and "glasses"
is synchronically unrelated to what specific instances of these items
are made of.  Similarly "wood" (for the golf club) and "rubber'.
(Compare "cheese" or "cream" which some of us are reluctant to extend
to the imitation versions.)

L


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Dec  6 19:59:24 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:59:24 EST
Subject: Icebox lives on
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.145924.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/6/02 12:44:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes:

>  Larry writes:
>  >I think the idea was that brooms aren't made from broom any longer,
>  >nor are glasses made from glass, but we still call them by those
>  >names.
>  ~~~~~~
>  Not entirely true.  I still buy brooms made from broom corn, and my glasses
>  have glass lenses (which I specify, since the plastic ones scratch far too
>  readily).

The process being discussed here is nothing more than "force of habit", also
called "inertia".

Once a word enters your vocabulary, you keep using it unless you have a
reason to change.  There are numerous possible reasons, e.g.
   1) you happen to like the new/slang/newly fashionable replacement
   2) even you admit the old term is archaic
   3) the old term becomes ambiguous or obscure
   4) the old term is no longer needed
   5) there is a change in technology, or other change in the item being
described, so that the old term no longer applies to what you want to discuss

"icebox" is a strong example of 5).  A refrigerator is quite a different item
from an icebox.  The former can include a freezer.  The latter cannot, and
requires the blatant presence of an iceman on a regular basis.  During the
changeover period (the 1930's and 1940's, I think) people had to use both
terms because both appliances were used and had to be distinguished.  Also,
perhaps not too incidentally, General Motors (who were the first to sell
refrigerators nationally) put a certain amount of advertising money behind
the word "refrigerator."

note that even in this age of the electric refrigerator, we still refer to
"icebox cookies"

as for "glasses", as Sage Hen points out, they are still available with glass
lenses, because glass does not scratch as easily as the polycarbonate plastic
widely used for corrective lenses.  (Polycarbonate is lighter and tougher,
which is why it has become so popular).  Since the changeover is still
incomplete, may never be complete, and has been gradual, and since it takes a
close inspection to distinguish glass from polycarbonate, there has been no
reason to stop using the term "glasses".  Also, the alternate term
"spectacles" is borderline archaic.

as for "broom", most 21st Century city-dwellers are unaware that there is
such a plant as "broom" and never have occasion to wonder what material is
used in that household utensil.  (A sweeping device I bought two weeks ago
was made from broom---I know this only because I happened to read the label.)
 Furthermore there is no usable synonym for "broom" meaning the
utensil---"besom" is so archaic as to be unrecognizable even to the average
ADS-L member.

So, both "broom" and "glasses" fail to generate a need for change under 3),
4), or 5) above.  Is it surprising that they are still in use?

(OT note: Benjamin Franklin not only invented the bifocal "spectacles", he
also developed broom corn, which is actually sorghum rather than maize.)

What about "tinfoil"?  There was a technological change, with foil made of
tin being replaced by aluminum foil, but a different piece of conservatism
was active here.  "Tin" in addition to meaning the element also has the
meaning in English of "thin, weak, flimsy", particularly when applied to
metallic items such as tinfoil.  Some examples: in the Civil War the Union
Navy built a number of arnored gunboats that had much thinner armor than
previous gunboats.  These new boats became known as "tinclads" even though
their armor was made of wrought iron.  And the Wizard of Oz (1900?)  has a
character known as "the tin woodsman" or "the Tinman" although he is
definitely made of iron rather than tin, since he rusts.  We still refer to a
sheet metal worker as a "tinsmith" although such an artisan never works in
sheet tin and some never work with tinplate.  Conclusion:  nobody every
popularized a synonym for "tin" meaning "flimsy" so to this day aluminum foil
is correctly referred to as "tinfoil" because it is flimsy.

Consider "steam roller" and "steam shovel".  Neither rollers nor shovels have
used steam for much of a century---even the celebrated "Ruissian steam
roller" has long since been Dieselized.  Yet to anyone except the operator of
construction equipment, the type of engine used in a power roller or a power
shovel is not particularly relevant---it's not like the electric
refrigerator, which eleminated the need for an iceman to deliver to your
house.

Now for some terms that have changed.

"Mongoloid idiot" and "Mongolism" --> Down's syndrome.  PC sometimes succeeds.

"Indian" --> "Native American"  only partially successful, although it is
needed (the owner of the company I work for is an Indian.  He is from Bombay.)

"Negro" --> "black" --> "African-American".  Here it was the people being
described who insisted on the changes.  It is very hard to remember that
until the mid-60's "Negro" WAS the PC term.

Victrola-->grammophone-->record
player-->phonograph-->stereo-->turntable-->oblivion.  This one I cannot
explain.  Edison named the thing "phonograph".  "Victrola" was a trade name,
long since abandoned.  "Stereo" represents a technological advance, from
monaural to stereophonic records.   I imagine that "turntable" became
necessary with the advent of stereo tapes etc.  The other changes may simply
have been fashion.  When did you last hear of a "hi-fi"?

Within the aviation business:

stewardess--> flight attendant.  probably has something to do with it ceasing
to be an all-female profession.

cockpit-->flight deck.  I think this was a euphemism introduced by the
airlines, who didn't want their passengers to think of fighter planes.

vertical stabilizer-->tail fin.  I suspect this was done solely as an
abbreviation.


Now for one that I am unsure of.  Growing up in Kentucky, I was used to
hearing asphalt (on a roadway) referred to as "blacktop".  I haven''t heard
"blacktop" in years.  Was it a regionalism?  Or was it a victim of
technological change, as there no longer is any great supply of gravel or
dirt roads left to be "blacktopped"?

      - Jim Landau


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Dec  6 20:52:31 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:52:31 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.155231.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's news to me that "blacktop" has faded anywhere.  It's certainly alive &
well up here in northern NY, and, I'm reasonably certain, in SW Ohio.  Both
places may (& up here certainly) still have  roads not yet paved, but even
after paving, maintenance requires re-blacktopping every now & then.
(Blacktop has the advantage of being easier to say than asphalt, too,
whether the
ASS FALT  or ASH FALT pronunciation is favored!)

Incidentally, I think the term that GM's advertising imprinted on the
American vocabulary was "Frigidaire."  Electric refrigerators were
generically referred to as frigidaires, whatever their actual brand, by
most people when I was a kid. We happened to have a monitor-top GE, which
we called "the icebox," even while  the real icebox still sat on the back
porch, serving as a supplementary cupboard.
A. Murie


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Dec  6 21:22:32 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:22:32 -0000
Subject: Frog in a hailstorm
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.212232.0000.>

A subscriber has asked me about "blink like a frog in a hailstorm",
which from a quick Google seems to be moderately well known. It's a
delightful expression. Frogs don't seem to do well weatherwise so far
as language is concerned - there's "frog strangler" as well, isn't
there, for heavy rain? Are these regional expressions in the US?


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Fri Dec  6 16:03:14 2002
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:03:14 -0000
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.160314.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An interesting article in (I think) a recent edition of Atlantic Monthly
pointed out in some detail that the South has already risen and in the
process has imposed at least three of its cultural centerpieces on the rest
of the country, to wit: the Baptist religion, NASCAR racing, and country
music.

Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beverly Flanigan" <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


> I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money move
> southward, as they now are... the
> South shall rise again!
>
>>


From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Fri Dec  6 16:21:32 2002
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:21:32 -0000
Subject: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.162132.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Manual typewriters are still much in demand in third world areas and there
is a pretty decent market even for well used ones.

Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Abate" <abatefr at earthlink.net>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 10:17 AM
Subject: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing


> David and Bethany had the following exchange:
>
> >>
> On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, David Bowie wrote:
>
> >Incidentally, typewriters are still a serious necessity, even for those
of
> >us raised with dedicated word processors and then later PCs--if you have
to
> >fill out a pre-printed form, nothing beats a typewriter. For this reason,
>


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Dec  6 21:48:12 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:48:12 -0800
Subject: Frog in a hailstorm
In-Reply-To: <3DF11518.32403.1467495@localhost>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.134812.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I know "toad" for each of these: Blinkin' like a toad in a hailstorm, a
toad strangler. Both gleaned from my wife, who's from northern Arkansas.

PR

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Michael Quinion wrote:

> A subscriber has asked me about "blink like a frog in a hailstorm",
> as language is concerned - there's "frog strangler" as well, isn't


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Dec  6 21:55:35 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:55:35 -0500
Subject: Eastern Kentucky accent and UK accents
In-Reply-To: <sdf08651.096@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.165535.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:13 AM 12/6/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >>> flanigan at OHIO.EDU 12/06/02 08:41AM >>>
>
> >>Hiring practices are a toughie.  Our ESL program refused, until just a few
> >>years ago, to hire anyone but native American English speakers of a
> >>"general" Northern/Midwestern accent--no Brits need apply!
>
>Didn't we just have the results of a perception test about 3 weeks ago in
>which it was determined that Texans are the most honest, etc, etc.?  Maybe
>Stephani should look through the archives and find the results of that
>investigation.  I don't know what her prof really meant or his attitudes,
>but those findings are surely food for thought for her.
>
>  >>My grad students jokingly call me Road Runner because of my fast
> Minnesota speech,
>
>That's very interesting, Beverly, because one of the stereotypes of MN
>speech is that it is very slooowww. Remember Howard Mohr's "How to Talk
>Minnesotan"? (At least I think it was Howard)
>Fritz

Both stereotypes are broadcast, you're right.  The fast one is based on the
idea that we have to talk fast to avoid letting too much cold air
in.  Ironically, the director of the ESL program here is also from
Minnesota (born in the same county I was, in fact--Yellow Medicine County;
make of that what you will), but he talks R-E-A-L-L-Y S-L-O-W.


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Dec  6 22:06:48 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 22:06:48 -0000
Subject: Frog in a hailstorm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021206134712.28414M-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.220648.0000.>

> I know "toad" for each of these: Blinkin' like a toad in a
> hailstorm, a toad strangler. Both gleaned from my wife, who's from
> northern Arkansas.

Thanks. Yes, Google has some of those, too. Confusingly, "like a
toad in a RAINstorm" turns up in a school idiom glossary where it is
defined as "that empty, goggle-eyed stare that you get from someone
when they don't understand what you are saying". I don't want us all
to get in so deep here that we can't escape again, but could that
possibly be true?


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Dec  6 22:24:36 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:24:36 -0800
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <1ba.a597009.2b225b9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.142436.0800.>

> Now for one that I am unsure of.  Growing up in Kentucky, I
> was used to hearing asphalt (on a roadway) referred to as
> "blacktop".  I haven''t heard "blacktop" in years.  Was it
> a regionalism?  Or was it a victim of technological change,
> as there no longer is any great supply of gravel or dirt
> roads left to be "blacktopped"?

The term wasn't limited to Kentucky. I recall it growing up in southern New
Jersey. I also haven't heard it for years, but I don't know whether that is
because the term is fading or because I just haven't noticed its use.


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Fri Dec  6 22:44:32 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:44:32 -0800
Subject: Icebox lives on
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.144432.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about 'pigskin' and 'sheepskin'? Maybe even 'cavalry' when referring to helicopters fits into this.
Fritz

>>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 12/06/02 11:42AM >>>
At 12:48 PM -0500 12/6/02, sagehen wrote:
>  Larry writes:
>>I think the idea was that brooms aren't made from broom any longer,
>>nor are glasses made from glass, but we still call them by those
>>names.
>>
>>L
>~~~~~~
>Not entirely true.  I still buy brooms made from broom corn, and my glasses
>have glass lenses (which I specify, since the plastic ones scratch far too
>readily).
>A.Murie

Sorry, I meant "not necessarily".  Our use of "broom" and "glasses"
is synchronically unrelated to what specific instances of these items
are made of.  Similarly "wood" (for the golf club) and "rubber'.
(Compare "cheese" or "cream" which some of us are reluctant to extend
to the imitation versions.)

L


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Dec  6 22:48:51 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:48:51 -0500
Subject: Bougie/Bourgie
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212061317220.77669293-100000@shell01.TheWor
 ld.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.174851.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>#I've run into the word "bougie" many times ... but it doesn't mean
>#"bourgeois" to me.
>#
>#Is/was the double-entendre intended?
>
>Double entendre?

"Bougie" (/buZi/ or /budZi/, not like "boogie-woogie" AFAIK):

AHD4:

"1. Medicine a. A slender, flexible, cylindrical instrument that is
inserted into a bodily canal, such as the urethra, to dilate, examine, or
medicate."

This is actually how I would recognize the word (especially with regard to
dilation of the esophagus), but maybe it's medical jargon.

"b. See suppository."

I haven't heard this "bougie" for years, and I can't remember where I
encountered it. Is it medical jargon (perhaps obsolete) or is/was it
commonly used in lay English? If the latter, I suppose it could provide a
humorously derogatory or perhaps harmlessly frivolous intentional
deformation of "bourgeois".

"2. A wax candle."

I've never heard this one myself AFAIK.

-- Doug Wilson


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Dec  6 23:01:34 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:01:34 -0800
Subject: Frog in a hailstorm
In-Reply-To: <3DF11F78.14214.16EFC8A@localhost>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.150134.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Thanks. Yes, Google has some of those, too. Confusingly, "like a
> toad in a RAINstorm" turns up in a school idiom glossary where it is
> defined as "that empty, goggle-eyed stare that you get from someone
> when they don't understand what you are saying". I don't want us all
> to get in so deep here that we can't escape again, but could that
> possibly be true?

Gosh, I have another picture in mind: not a blank stare, but an animal
that's blinking so fast he gets blisters on his eyeballs.

PR


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec  6 23:04:08 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:04:08 -0500
Subject: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <00b301c29d45$fcc26de0$3ed513d0@fitzke>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.180408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Bob Fitzke wrote:

#Manual typewriters are still much in demand in third world areas and there
#is a pretty decent market even for well used ones.

Yeah.... they don't need electricity!

-- Mark A. Mandel


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Dec  6 23:07:15 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:07:15 -0800
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <000001c29d76$42d9b1a0$0300a8c0@HPN5290>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.150715.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > "blacktop".  I haven''t heard "blacktop" in years.  Was it
> > a regionalism?  Or was it a victim of technological change,
> > as there no longer is any great supply of gravel or dirt
> > roads left to be "blacktopped"?
>
> The term wasn't limited to Kentucky. I recall it growing up in southern New
> Jersey. I also haven't heard it for years, but I don't know whether that is
> because the term is fading or because I just haven't noticed its use.

Same for Illinois in the 50s. I wouldn't blink a toad's eye if I heard it
today, though, even if it might sound odd to others. My mother,
incidentally, would have said "macadam," even if that's strictly something
different from blacktop/asphalt. (She was from Portland, where there's
still a street named Macadam--whether after the famous Scot or not, I
don't know, but I doubt it was named after its material; just imagine "I
live on Concrete Street.")

PR


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Dec  6 23:16:55 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:16:55 -0800
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021206150216.28414P-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.151655.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I hear "blacktop" fairly often usually in connection with someone having a
driveway, parking lot or some other small project paved. Asphalt
(pronounced while I was growing up in Portland as something closer to
AZ-falt rather than ASS-falt) seems to be applied to bigger projects like
roads, highways, etc. But then again, perhaps I'm making a distinction
without a difference.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Peter Richardson wrote:
>
> Same for Illinois in the 50s. I wouldn't blink a toad's eye if I heard it
> today, though, even if it might sound odd to others. My mother,
> incidentally, would have said "macadam," even if that's strictly something
> different from blacktop/asphalt. (She was from Portland, where there's
> still a street named Macadam--whether after the famous Scot or not, I
> don't know, but I doubt it was named after its material; just imagine "I
> live on Concrete Street.")
>
> PR
>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Dec  6 23:34:20 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:34:20 -0800
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021206150216.28414P-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.153420.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Friday, December 6, 2002 3:07 PM -0800 Peter Richardson
<prichard at linfield.edu> wrote:

>
> Same for Illinois in the 50s. I wouldn't blink a toad's eye if I heard it
> today, though, even if it might sound odd to others. My mother,
> incidentally, would have said "macadam," even if that's strictly something
> different from blacktop/asphalt. (She was from Portland, where there's
> still a street named Macadam--whether after the famous Scot or not, I
> don't know, but I doubt it was named after its material; just imagine "I
> live on Concrete Street.")
>
> PR

I've always called it blacktop and still would today if the subject
happened to come up.  A note on "macadam": my grandmother and the great
aunt who lived in Oregon told about teasing their sister (who lived in
Oklahoma like my grandmother) for calling that street "MacaDAM."  So
apparently the term was unfamiliar to her, whether because it was new then
or because it was used in Oregon but not, or at least not colloquially, in
Oklahoma.

Peter Mc.

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec  7 01:05:56 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 20:05:56 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <00b101c29d45$fb2f98e0$3ed513d0@fitzke>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.200556.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:03 PM +0000 12/6/02, Bob Fitzke wrote:
>An interesting article in (I think) a recent edition of Atlantic Monthly
>pointed out in some detail that the South has already risen and in the
>process has imposed at least three of its cultural centerpieces on the rest
>of the country, to wit: the Baptist religion, NASCAR racing, and country
>music.
>
And the Lord, in His wisdom and mercy, grants us an a la carte menu
so we get to pick and choose which of these impositions we accept.

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec  7 02:05:08 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:05:08 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <1ba.a597009.2b225b9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.210508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In a message dated 12/6/02 12:44:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes:
>
>>   Larry writes:
>>   >I think the idea was that brooms aren't made from broom any longer,
>>   >nor are glasses made from glass, but we still call them by those
>>   >names.
>>   ~~~~~~
>>   Not entirely true.  I still buy brooms made from broom corn, and my glasses
>>   have glass lenses (which I specify, since the plastic ones scratch far too
>>   readily).
>
>The process being discussed here is nothing more than "force of habit", also
>called "inertia".

I think there is something more than inertia going on--this is, in
the interesting cases, a classic instance of semantic change of the
same type we have in "bead" or "horn".  A word that originally refers
directly to a given object or material A is characteristically used
in certain contexts that contain a feature B, and later generations
reinterpret the word to refer directly to B (whether or not the
original composition A is present).  Thus A > A(B) > (A)B > B.

>
>Once a word enters your vocabulary, you keep using it unless you have a
>reason to change.  There are numerous possible reasons, e.g.
>    1) you happen to like the new/slang/newly fashionable replacement
>    2) even you admit the old term is archaic
>    3) the old term becomes ambiguous or obscure
>    4) the old term is no longer needed
>    5) there is a change in technology, or other change in the item being
>described, so that the old term no longer applies to what you want to discuss

I'd draw the boundary in a different place:  either the object
remains essentially the same but a new term is introduced (alongside
or replacing the original) or the term remains the same but the
referent or reference changes (see the "bead" case above).  Or of
course both change.  So for me, it's immaterial whether there are any
glasses anywhere made of glass rather than plastic.  And I suspect
that when and if the last pair of spectacles made from glass breaks,
they'll still be called glasses, not (e.g.) plastics.  Are there any
rubbers (the condom, not galoshes type) made of rubber?  I have no
idea.  But latex, lambskin, whatever, they're rubbers.  And same with
galoshes, whatever THEY end up getting made of.

>
>"icebox" is a strong example of 5).  A refrigerator is quite a different item
>from an icebox.  The former can include a freezer.  The latter cannot, and
>requires the blatant presence of an iceman on a regular basis.  During the
>changeover period (the 1930's and 1940's, I think) people had to use both
>terms because both appliances were used and had to be distinguished.  Also,
>perhaps not too incidentally, General Motors (who were the first to sell
>refrigerators nationally) put a certain amount of advertising money behind
>the word "refrigerator."

Frigidiare, I think.  Whence "fridge", although I suppose that could
also have come from "refrigerator".  The OED is open-minded about
which was the direct ancestor.

>as for "glasses", as Sage Hen points out, they are still available with glass
>lenses, because glass does not scratch as easily as the polycarbonate plastic
>widely used for corrective lenses.  (Polycarbonate is lighter and tougher,
>which is why it has become so popular).  Since the changeover is still
>incomplete, may never be complete, and has been gradual, and since it takes a
>close inspection to distinguish glass from polycarbonate, there has been no
>reason to stop using the term "glasses".

As mentioned, I think this (the completeness of the changeover) is
irrelevant.  We'll go on calling them glasses anyway, although some
day we may no longer remember why.  (See the related argument by
Putnam about how we went on calling water "water" even when we
changed our mind about water really is.  In that case, water remained
unchanged, but our theories changed.  In the case of glasses or
rubbers it's the composition of the object that changed, but the term
is now understood functionally rather than structurally (as with
horns made of brass rather than animal appendages).

>as for "broom", most 21st Century city-dwellers are unaware that there is
>such a plant as "broom" and never have occasion to wonder what material is
>used in that household utensil.

Exactly.  And in fact brooms could be made of all sorts of things and
still be brooms.

>So, both "broom" and "glasses" fail to generate a need for change under 3),
>4), or 5) above.  Is it surprising that they are still in use?
>

"Horn" is still in use for the musical instrument, although the word
has other applications (as do "glasses", "rubber", etc.), and
although none of them (at least the French kind) are made from animal
horn.

>What about "tinfoil"?  There was a technological change, with foil made of
>tin being replaced by aluminum foil, but a different piece of conservatism
>was active here.  "Tin" in addition to meaning the element also has the
>meaning in English of "thin, weak, flimsy", particularly when applied to
>metallic items such as tinfoil.

Could be.  I think it's equally relevant that "tin foil" is easier to
say (a shorter word for a frequently referred to item, as Zipf would
point out) than "aluminum foil".  I'm not sure how much more
explanation we need for the retention of the term.

>  Some examples: in the Civil War the Union
>Navy built a number of arnored gunboats that had much thinner armor than
>previous gunboats.  These new boats became known as "tinclads" even though
>their armor was made of wrought iron.  And the Wizard of Oz (1900?)  has a
>character known as "the tin woodsman" or "the Tinman" although he is
>definitely made of iron rather than tin, since he rusts.  We still refer to a
>sheet metal worker as a "tinsmith" although such an artisan never works in
>sheet tin and some never work with tinplate.  Conclusion:  nobody every
>popularized a synonym for "tin" meaning "flimsy" so to this day aluminum foil
>is correctly referred to as "tinfoil" because it is flimsy.
>
>Consider "steam roller" and "steam shovel".  Neither rollers nor shovels have
>used steam for much of a century---even the celebrated "Ruissian steam
>roller" has long since been Dieselized.  Yet to anyone except the operator of
>construction equipment, the type of engine used in a power roller or a power
>shovel is not particularly relevant---it's not like the electric
>refrigerator, which eleminated the need for an iceman to deliver to your
>house.
>
>Now for some terms that have changed.

Right--these are cases where the referent has remained the same but
the term has changed, for reasons you point out.  Except that
turntables are back in, with a vengeance.  They're also (still/again)
called record players.  They're big in the DJ world, where vinyl
discs are intentionally scratched for effect. (My son got his twin DJ
turntables through e-Bay, and there are plenty more such pairs where
they came from.)  But there's also a generation (or at least that
subpart of it to which my 18- year-old daughter belongs) who believe
that vinyl discs are "warmer" than CDs--anyway, she has a request in
for one for Christmas, and I see they are indeed being marketed for
the non-DJ crowd.

--larry

>
>"Mongoloid idiot" and "Mongolism" --> Down's syndrome.  PC sometimes succeeds.
>
>"Indian" --> "Native American"  only partially successful, although it is
>needed (the owner of the company I work for is an Indian.  He is from Bombay.)
>
>"Negro" --> "black" --> "African-American".  Here it was the people being
>described who insisted on the changes.  It is very hard to remember that
>until the mid-60's "Negro" WAS the PC term.
>
>Victrola-->grammophone-->record
>player-->phonograph-->stereo-->turntable-->oblivion.  This one I cannot
>explain.  Edison named the thing "phonograph".  "Victrola" was a trade name,
>long since abandoned.  "Stereo" represents a technological advance, from
>monaural to stereophonic records.   I imagine that "turntable" became
>necessary with the advent of stereo tapes etc.  The other changes may simply
>have been fashion.  When did you last hear of a "hi-fi"?
>
>Within the aviation business:
>
>stewardess--> flight attendant.  probably has something to do with it ceasing
>to be an all-female profession.
>
>cockpit-->flight deck.  I think this was a euphemism introduced by the
>airlines, who didn't want their passengers to think of fighter planes.
>
>vertical stabilizer-->tail fin.  I suspect this was done solely as an
>abbreviation.
>
>
>Now for one that I am unsure of.  Growing up in Kentucky, I was used to
>hearing asphalt (on a roadway) referred to as "blacktop".  I haven''t heard
>"blacktop" in years.  Was it a regionalism?  Or was it a victim of
>technological change, as there no longer is any great supply of gravel or
>dirt roads left to be "blacktopped"?
>
>       - Jim Landau


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Sat Dec  7 02:08:04 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:08:04 EST
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.210804.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE has an extensive entry for "macadam," complete with map: it's chiefly
Northeast, MidAtlantic, and North Central (esp. Ohio) for this definition:
"originally a road pavement made of layers of packed crushed rock, sometimes
strengthened by applying a bituminous binder; now usually blacktop or a
similar paving material."
No entry for "blacktop," presumably because the editors didn't consider that
term regional. - Allan Metcalf


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Sat Dec  7 02:08:06 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:08:06 EST
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.210806.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another aspect of Southern culture that has spread nationwide: we all say
"hey."
- Allan Metcalf


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec  7 02:27:46 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:27:46 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <1ba.a597009.2b225b9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.212746.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

P.S.  Now that I've reread Jim's message next to mine, I see that I'm
not saying something all THAT different, but I do think the notion of
"inertia" he points to is more complicated, and that the reanalysis
factor (when a word is understood to refer to different properties,
and thus potentially to different objects, from what it originally
did) is more significant that it's usually given credit for.  I think
that example with "bead" moving from 'prayer (often kept track of
with little wooden stringable balls)' to 'little balls made of wood,
plastic, or whatever' made a big impression on me, as did the history
of my own last name.  As far as glasses, rubbers, etc. go, one nice
indication of referential change is the retronymic clone:  "GLASS
glasses", "RUBBER rubbers", "WOOD wood" (in golf), etc.

Larry


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Sat Dec  7 05:24:25 2002
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:24:25 -0600
Subject: Gene McCarthy on Jimmy Carter (was: Teaching with a Kentucky
 Accent)
In-Reply-To: <20021207050115.51A2A4C6C@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.232425.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Date sent:              Sat, 7 Dec 2002 00:01:13 -0500
Send reply to:          American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
From:                   Automatic digest processor
<LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject:                ADS-L Digest - 5 Dec 2002 to 6 Dec 2002 (#2002-315)
To:                     Recipients of ADS-L digests <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Date:    Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:14:37 -0500
> From:    Mark A Mandel <mam at THEWORLD.COM>
> Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>
>         [Dan Goodman -- Bev, your reply attributes this as "you said"]
> #>Eugene McCarthy has been quoted as saying "I would not entrust Jimmy
> #>Carter and his band of merry men with the job of snake control in
> #>Ireland."
>
>         [Beverly Flanigan]
> #Yes, alas, Gene McCarthy (who I campaigned for in my old Minnesota
> #days) fell prey to elitism. . . .
>
> Excuse me, but where does that quotation imply any connection with
> Jimmy Carter's accent or region of origin? There are lots and lots of
> reasons for one politician to put down another one, and some of them
> are even legitimate.
>
The post I replied to said that no one had called Jimmy Carter (among
 others) dumb.  I gave a counter-example.


From krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU  Sat Dec  7 06:11:41 2002
From: krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU (Karl Krahnke)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:11:41 -0700
Subject: Research on second dialect acquisition
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.231141.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Although I do quite a bit of work in the area of  regional dialect and even
pronunciation teaching (when forced), I have never looked hard for research
evidence, descriptive or experimental, on the difficulty or ease of
different/second dialect  acquisition. Like Beverly Flanigan, I have
assumed it was difficult and rare, but I have not come across research that
looks specifically at that phenomenon. There are no references to it in
Rosina Lippi-Green's _English with an Accent_, which is one place I would
expect to find some references. Could someone help me by pointing me to
specific studies on that specific question?

I am also doing some work on regulation and judgment of language in the
context of employment. A basic legal issue there is whether and to what
degree language is a "mutable characteristic." I am not aware of compelling
evidence that accent, for one, is not mutable, though I would certainly
like to think that is generally the case.

So, again, any suggestions would be helpful. (I'll of course look on my own
also.)

Karl Krahnke
Colorado State University


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec  7 08:02:56 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 03:02:56 EST
Subject: DARE articles; Philpy; Beggar's Purse (1984)
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.030256.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE ARTICLES

   There's a nice December 4th article about DARE in the CHICAGO SUN-TIMES.
Google for "Chicago lingo" and "DARE" or go directly to www.suntimes.com.
   This Sunday's William Safire column's "gifts of gab" book roundup mentions
DARE and Allan Metcalf's latest.
   I just went to the ADS web site and clicked on the DARE link.  I got a
pop-up ad for Pepto Bismol.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
PHILPY

   Philpy, where are ye?  From John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD
AND DRINK (1999):

_philpy._  A South Carolina rice bread.  The name is of obscure origins.

   That's it.  No further explanation.  No date.  A recipe follows.
   So I opened my new DARE VOLUME IV P-SK and there's...nothing!!!!!
   So I opened my trusty SOUTHERN FOOD: AT HOME, ON THE ROAD, IN HISTORY
(University of North Carolina Press, 1993) by John Egerton.  Also nothing!
   A Google check says that it dates from before the Civil War.  I didn't
spot it on any Making of America database.  I'm away from the other databases
right now.  Could there be a different spelling?
   I spotted "philpy" in an index to AMERICAN COOKERY, June-July 1933-May
1934, pg. 96.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BEGGAR'S PURSE

   The Quilted Giraffe, 955 Second Avenue (between 50th and 51st Streets),
got a rare four-star review (highest rating) from NEW YORK TIMES critic
Marian Burros.  Mariani includes "beggar's purse," and I found the restaurant
review on the full text search.  Barry Wine is the restaurant owner.


   20 January 1984, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. C14:
   Beggar's purses, Mr. Wine's seductive signature dish, carries a $20
supplement but is absolutely irresistible: Beluga caviar and creme fraiche
wrapped in the most delicate of tiny crepes and tied, like a hobo's sack,
with chives, perched on a bed of lemon slices, which adds a lovely acid
balance to the caviar.  And when the restaurant serves truffles, brought to
the table in baskets to tempt diners with their heady fragrance, the portion
is generous enough to suffuse the dish with the same perfume and flavor.

(Why is it called "beggar's purses" if it costs so much?--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec  7 09:03:21 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 04:03:21 EST
Subject: Jalapeno (1924)
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.040321.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I'm still working on "jalapeno."  These things take time.  Please, it's
the New York Public Library we're talking about here.
   I didn't find it easily on Thursday, but I'm trying this book.  It is, all
together now--OFF-SITE.  I'll list it here in case I die before the book
arrives.
   "Jalapeno" is one of our most important foods (as opposed to, say,
"philpy") and the OED's first citations are 1949 and 1964.



Call #  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cTAH+(Schnitzler%2C+H.+Republic+of+Mexico%2C+its+agriculture%2C+commerce+%26+industries)/ctah+schnitzler+h+republic+of+mexico+its+agriculture+commerce+and+industries/-5,-1,0,E/2browse">TAH (Schnitzler, H. Republic of Mexico, its agriculture, commerce &
industries)</A>
Author  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aSchnitzler%2C+Hermann%2C/aschnitzler+hermann/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Schnitzler, Hermann, ed.</A>
Title   The republic of Mexico, its agriculture, commerce & industries; a
handbook of information based upon exhaustive research work carried on in the
different sections of Mexico by a staff of experts. Compiled and edited by
Hermann Schnitzler.
Imprint New York, N. L. Brown, 1924.


LOCATION    CALL NO.    STATUS
<A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/screens/offsitehome.html">OFFSITE</A>      <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cTAH+(Schnitzler%2C+H.+Republic+of+Mexico%2C+its+agriculture%2C+commerce+%26+industries)/ctah+schnitzler+h+republic+of+mexico+its+agriculture+commerce+and+industries/-5,-1,,E/browse">TAH (Schnitzler, H. Republic of Mexico, its agriculture,
commerce & industries)</A>        AVAILABLE
Location    SIBL
Descript    637 p. front. (fold. map) 22cm.
Series  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/tLibrary+of+Latin-American+information/tlibrary+of+latin-american+information/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Library of Latin-American information</A>
Note    Appendix I: Alphabetical list of archaeological ruins.
    Appendix II: Alphabetical list of the plants, fruits and trees of
commercial or industrial use mentioned in ... this book.
Subject <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/dMexico./dmexico/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Mexico.</A>
    <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/dMexico+--+Economic+conditions+--+1918-/dmexico+economic+conditions+1918-/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Mexico -- Economic conditions -- 1918-</A>
    <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/dAgriculture+--+Mexico./dagriculture+mexico/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Agriculture -- Mexico.</A>
    <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/dMexico+--+Antiquities./dmexico+antiquities/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Mexico -- Antiquities.</A>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec  7 10:53:49 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 05:53:49 EST
Subject: Break a leg
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.055349.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The New York Public Library's Lincoln Center Performing Arts Library is
open until 8 p.m. on Thursdays.  Two days ago I left the 42nd Street library
when that closed at 5:45 p.m., and immediately headed to 66th Street and
Lincoln Center.  I was starting to do my work when I was told that they were
closing early at 6:30 p.m. because of the snowstorm.  I couldn't do
everything in five minutes.

Wilfred, Granville, A DICTIONARY OF THEATRICAL TERMS (1952).
Pg. 32:  _break_  (2) The American cooloquial sense of "fortune": "So and so
had a lucky _break_ in the Broadway show last fall."

Trapido, Joel, AN INTERNATIONAL DICTIONARY OF THEATRE LANGUAGE (1985).
"Break a leg" is here, but it's nothing special.

Wilmeth, Don B., THE LANGUAGE OF AMERICAN POPULAR ENTERTAINMENT (1981).
"Break a leg" is here, but it's nothing special.

Harrison, Martin, THE LANGUAGE OF THE THEATRE (1993, 1996)
"Break a leg" is here, but it's nothing special.

Buchanan, Barry, ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE SHOW WORLD (1939, unpublished)
I copied the note cards in Carnegie Mellon, but it was a rush job and I'm
missing some parts.  Here's one card:
break   CARNIVAL
Same as go wrong (which see).  Also, slang for a fortunate happening; a
change in luck for the better, i. e., I got a swell break.  Conversely a bad
break means bad luck.  Also, an intermission in a show.

University of Missouri-Columbia, Western Historical Manuscript Collection,
Peter Tamony Papers
"Break a leg" is here.  I got the below response that the query will cost me
$20.  Twenty dollars is twenty dollars more than I've made from etymology all
year, but I'll pay it if anyone's interested.

Subj:   Reference Request
Date:   12/5/2002 4:05:03 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:StolzW at umsystem.edu">StolzW at umsystem.edu</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Barry Popik
Bapopik at aol.com

Dear Mr. Popik,

David Moore has forwarded your request of December 4 to the reference staff.
Please note that effective October 1, 2002, a research fee was instituted by
the Western Historical Manuscript Collection-Columbia. The reference staff
will search the subject index and collection inventories free of charge, but
a non-refundable research fee of $20 is required before we can search the
actual collection and/or make reproductions. In the case of the Tamony
collection the staff will search for up to three phrases or words per
request. A check or money order, made payable to the University of Missouri,
can be mailed to the address below. The fee also includes up to 10
photocopies. The fees for additional photocopies are as follows:

1-200 copies (per page)        $0.20
201-500 copies (per page)    $0.35
501-1000 copies (per page)    $0.50
1001 and over (per page)        $1.00
*All orders include additional charges for shipping.

Once the search is complete you will be notified of all findings and any
additional costs. As in the past, the Tamony collection can be viewed
anytime, free of charge, by visiting our facility located in 23 Ellis Library
on the University of Missouri-Columbia campus.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions regarding the
research fee or the Tamony collection.

Sincerely,

William T. Stolz
Manuscript Specialist
stolzw at umsystem.edu

WHMC-Columbia
23 Ellis Library
University of Missouri
Columbia, MO 65201


From martineze at COFC.EDU  Sat Dec  7 10:46:43 2002
From: martineze at COFC.EDU (Elizabeth Martineze-Gibson)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 05:46:43 -0500
Subject: Those ones
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.054643.0500.>

I am glad this came up. I wondered if this is dialectal. I've heard this
on many occasions here in Charleston, SC. Coming from the Northeast and
having lived in Florida prior to this I never heard "those ones" before
and when I did, it just didn't sound right to me. But I hear it often
here in Charleston.
I would be interested in knowing if this occurs in other parts of the US
as a regular phenomenon.

Liz Martinez

On Fri, 06 Dec 2002 10:09:45 -0800 Ed Keer wrote:

> --- Dodi Schultz <SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM> wrote:
> > Ed Keer asks for opinions on:
> >
> >   >> I like these cars much better than those ones.
> >
> > The word "ones" is superfluous; the sentence is
> > therefore clumsy.
>
>
> I agree. But, I wonder why it's superfluous when a
> sentence like:
>
> I like this car much better than that one.
>
> is fine. I could imagine a generative syntax/semantics
> analysis. Just wondering if anyone was aware of any
> work on it.
>
> Also, it seems that "those ones" was perfectly fine in
> earlier English, at least according to Jespersen. So
> is this new?
>
> Ed
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Dec  7 15:40:59 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 10:40:59 -0500
Subject: Research on second dialect acquisition
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021206230859.00a9fec0@lamar.colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.104059.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Look at Trydgill's Dialects in Contact (which summarizes much of his
and Jack Chambers' work on this topic, as well as Payne's in King of
Prussia, PA). More recently, an MSU team has completed an NSF study
of acquisition of the Northern Cities Shift variety by African
Americans, rural Michiganders, and Appalachian immigrants. There are
several publications (and dissertations) for the interested.

dInIs



Although I do quite a bit of work in the area of  regional dialect and even
pronunciation teaching (when forced), I have never looked hard for research
evidence, descriptive or experimental, on the difficulty or ease of
different/second dialect  acquisition. Like Beverly Flanigan, I have
assumed it was difficult and rare, but I have not come across research that
looks specifically at that phenomenon. There are no references to it in
Rosina Lippi-Green's _English with an Accent_, which is one place I would
expect to find some references. Could someone help me by pointing me to
specific studies on that specific question?

I am also doing some work on regulation and judgment of language in the
context of employment. A basic legal issue there is whether and to what
degree language is a "mutable characteristic." I am not aware of compelling
evidence that accent, for one, is not mutable, though I would certainly
like to think that is generally the case.

So, again, any suggestions would be helpful. (I'll of course look on my own
also.)

Karl Krahnke
Colorado State University

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Dec  7 15:51:22 2002
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 07:51:22 -0800
Subject: Research on second dialect acquisition
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.075122.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs sez, in a helpful reply about references:

 >Look at Trydgill's Dialects in Contact...

despite peter trudgill's field work in norway, his vowels
have not get shifted.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sat Dec  7 16:18:05 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 11:18:05 -0500
Subject: DARE articles; Philpy; Beggar's Purse (1984)
In-Reply-To: <192.11d9a6f8.2b230530@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.111805.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Le Saturday, 7 Dec 2002, à 03:02 America/New_York, Bapopik at AOL.COM a
écrit :
>    I just went to the ADS web site and clicked on the DARE link.  I
> got a
> pop-up ad for Pepto Bismol.

I recommend that you check your computer for piggyback programs such as
Gator which throw up advertisements regardless of which site you are
visiting. Also, it is a common trick for sites to initiate delayed
pop-ups, which sit in reserve for a number of minutes, hours, or days,
and then pop-up an advertisement. This makes it more difficult for
visitors to pinpoint the offending site.


--
Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
Make It Work: Small Business Computer Support in New York City
http://www.worldnewyork.org/


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Sat Dec  7 16:38:46 2002
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 11:38:46 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <1a6.d30520a.2b22b206@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.113846.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You mean as a greeting variant of "hi"?  Did the older usage (the
exclamatory one) come from the South too?  I don't use it for greeting, but
my son (33) has started to do so recently; I guess it's the 30-somethings
and on down who use it, right?

At 09:08 PM 12/6/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Another aspect of Southern culture that has spread nationwide: we all say
>"hey."
>- Allan Metcalf


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Sat Dec  7 16:34:01 2002
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 11:34:01 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <20.3fa1952.2b22b204@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.113401.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wasn't the National Road (now US 40) the first macadamized road?  Since it
was so important to the settlement of the Northwest Territory, that might
explain its longtime use in Ohio (though it's probably not used much anymore?).

At 09:08 PM 12/6/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>DARE has an extensive entry for "macadam," complete with map: it's chiefly
>Northeast, MidAtlantic, and North Central (esp. Ohio) for this definition:
>"originally a road pavement made of layers of packed crushed rock, sometimes
>strengthened by applying a bituminous binder; now usually blacktop or a
>similar paving material."
>No entry for "blacktop," presumably because the editors didn't consider that
>term regional. - Allan Metcalf


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Dec  7 18:27:39 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 12:27:39 -0600
Subject: Barry Popik spots Yanigan in 1895, 1896
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.122739.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: "Peter Morris" <moxbib at voyager.net>
>Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:52:36 -0500
>Subject: RE: [19cBB] yanigans
>Reply-To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
>
>Lee Allen's The Hot Stove League is the earliest source I can find that
>attributes the coinage of "Yannigans" to Jerry Denny in 1884.  No doubt
>Allen picked it up from a note somewhere, and possibly a check of Denny's
>file at Cooperstown would have the note.  However, while I have great
>respect for Allen, I'm very skeptical that Yannigans was coined in 1884
>since there is no evidence of its appearing in print until over a decade
>later.
>
>Peter Morris

****

Below my signoff is a recent posting by attorney/word sleuth Barry
Popik to the American Dialect Society:

Jerry Cohen
member of 19cBB and American Dialect Society


>Date:         Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:28:10 EST
>From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Subject:      Yanigan (1895)
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>    I didn't have much time today to research the Philadelphia and Baltimore
>newspapers.  I'll try again on Saturday.  There's no rush--the DICTIONARY OF
>AMERICAN REGIONAL ENGLISH and the HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG
>still aren't at "Y."
>    1894 was not read.  I didn't see the term in Baltimore in 1895, but I
>looked very quickly.
>
>
>    26 March 1895, PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER, pg. 6, col. 1:
>    The first or regular team of the Philadelphia Club rather rubbed it in on
>the second or "Yanigan" nine this afternoon, and this evening Mike Grady has
>been endeavoring to figure out how it all happened.
>
>    21 March 1896, THE SUN (Baltimore), pg. 6, col. 4:
>_Regulars and Yanigans of the Baltimore Team._


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Dec  7 19:00:32 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:00:32 -0600
Subject: Research fees at Western Historical Manuscript Collection
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.130032.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

     I'm troubled to read about the imposition of a research fee at
the WHMC in Columbia, MO--a step out of keeping with the very
helpful, inexpensive services which WHMC has offered all along. (I
consider the staff there among the finest people I have met.)

    I haven't checked into the reason for the new fees but really
don't have to.  Missouri is in the midst of a severe budgetary
crisis, and the governor has made public higher education his
favorite target for budget cuts.  WHMC must be feeling the budgetary
pressure too.

     Your research is enormously valuable. I have a little credit
built up at WHMC and shall very willingly split the "break a leg"
research costs with you.
I'll send Bill Stolz an e-mail about this right away.

Jerry


At 5:53 AM -0500 12/7/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>University of Missouri-Columbia, Western Historical Manuscript Collection,
>Peter Tamony Papers
>"Break a leg" is here.  I got the below response that the query will cost me
>$20.  Twenty dollars is twenty dollars more than I've made from etymology all
>year, but I'll pay it if anyone's interested.
>
>Subj:   Reference Request
>Date:   12/5/2002 4:05:03 PM Eastern Standard Time
>From:   <A HREF="mailto:StolzW at umsystem.edu">StolzW at umsystem.edu</A>
>To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
>Sent from the Internet (Details)
>
>Barry Popik
>Bapopik at aol.com
>
>Dear Mr. Popik,
>
>David Moore has forwarded your request of December 4 to the reference staff.
>Please note that effective October 1, 2002, a research fee was instituted by
>the Western Historical Manuscript Collection-Columbia. The reference staff
>will search the subject index and collection inventories free of charge, but
>a non-refundable research fee of $20 is required before we can search the
>actual collection and/or make reproductions. In the case of the Tamony
>collection the staff will search for up to three phrases or words per
>request. A check or money order, made payable to the University of Missouri,
>can be mailed to the address below. The fee also includes up to 10
>photocopies. The fees for additional photocopies are as follows:
>
>1-200 copies (per page)        $0.20
>201-500 copies (per page)    $0.35
>501-1000 copies (per page)    $0.50
>1001 and over (per page)        $1.00
>*All orders include additional charges for shipping.
>
>Once the search is complete you will be notified of all findings and any
>additional costs. As in the past, the Tamony collection can be viewed
>anytime, free of charge, by visiting our facility located in 23 Ellis Library
>on the University of Missouri-Columbia campus.
>
>Please let me know if you have any additional questions regarding the
>research fee or the Tamony collection.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>William T. Stolz
>Manuscript Specialist
>stolzw at umsystem.edu
>
>WHMC-Columbia
>23 Ellis Library
>University of Missouri
>Columbia, MO 65201


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Sat Dec  7 21:12:36 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 21:12:36 -0000
Subject: Research fees at Western Historical Manuscript Collection
In-Reply-To: <p04310102ba17eed9b11b@[131.151.65.37]>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.211236.0000.>

> Your research is enormously valuable. I have a little credit built
> up at WHMC and shall very willingly split the "break a leg"
> research costs with you. I'll send Bill Stolz an e-mail about this
> right away.

Since I started the whole "break a leg" hare running, it's only fair
that I should pay the other half. If Barry will contact me privately
to give me his street address, I'll post an appropriate sum to him on
Monday.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Dec  8 01:43:26 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 20:43:26 -0500
Subject: Research on second dialect acquisition
In-Reply-To: <200212071551.gB7FpMl17444@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.204326.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dang. If I'da only said Trodgill (or even Trawdgill) I'da been closer
to what he says (at least).

Sorry arnold.

dInIs





dInIs sez, in a helpful reply about references:

  >Look at Trydgill's Dialects in Contact...

despite peter trudgill's field work in norway, his vowels
have not get shifted.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Dec  8 07:18:58 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 23:18:58 -0800
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <l03130305ba16b90293a6@[12.107.142.212]>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.231858.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Incidentally, I think the term that GM's advertising imprinted on the
>American vocabulary was "Frigidaire."  Electric refrigerators were
>generically referred to as frigidaires, whatever their actual brand, by
>most people when I was a kid. We happened to have a monitor-top GE, which
>we called "the icebox," even while  the real icebox still sat on the back
>porch, serving as a supplementary cupboard.

Excluding the fact that I locked myself in the icebox my grandfather
was throwing away, I was (years later) the proud owner of a Ploitch.
(Actually, it was a Philco, which, when I cleaned it one day,
realized that the letters came out - and  thus could be rearranged..).

Rima


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  8 10:25:43 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 05:25:43 EST
Subject: Bigfoot (August 1958)
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.052543.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED doesn't have a "bigfoot" entry.  The term was used before, such as the
title of ADVENTURES OF BIG-FOOT WALLACE (1870).
   From the AP and AOL News:


SEATTLE (Dec. 7) - The man who used 16-inch feet-shaped carvings to create
tracks that ignited the ``Bigfoot'' legend has died. He was 84.

Ray L. Wallace's family admitted his role in the creature myth after his
death Nov. 26 from heart failure.

``The reality is, Bigfoot just died,'' his son, Michael, said.

In August 1958, a bulldozer operator who worked for Wallace's construction
company in Humboldt County, California, found huge footprints circling and
then leading away from his rig.

The Humboldt Times in Eureka, California, coined the term ``Bigfoot'' in a
front-page story about the phenomenon.
(...)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  8 12:23:19 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 07:23:19 EST
Subject: Posole or Pozole
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.072319.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Posole/Pozole is driving me nuts.  Is it English?
   Posole--5,100 Google hits.
   Pozole--6,610 Google hits.
   Posole/Pozole--not in the new DARE P-SK.  Not in OED.  Not in
Merriam-Webster.  Not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND
DRINK (1999).
   Posole is an entry in THE OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD (1999).  "Pozole" is
mentioned there as a soup-stew.
   Whew!  A leg to stand on when I confront OED!
   As can be seen from the Google hits, the term is not rare at all in
English.  It also appears in the Sharon Herbst's Food Dictionary, as can be
seen on the epicurious.com web site (click "learn").
   From WEBSTER'S NEW WORLD DICTIONARY OF CULINARY ARTS (1997, second edition
2001), pg. 364:

_posole; pozole_ (poh-SOH-leh) A Mexican soup of pork and broth, hominy and
onions, flavored with garlic, chiles and cilantro and garnished with lettuce,
onions, cheese and cilantro.

   But don't trust WEBSTER'S NEW WORLD.  It's got crazy foreign words like
"lebkuchen" in there.
   I haven't gone through the databases, but the following ain't bad.

THE PEOPLE OF MEXICO:
WHO THEY ARE AND HOW THEY LIVE
by Wallace Thompson
New York: Harper & Brothers
1921

Pg. 264:
   Other corn-meal foods of Mexico are _cocoles_, _chavacanes_, and _pemol_.
_Cocoles_ are cakes or biscuits (Pg. 265--ed.) of corn meal, half an inch in
thickness and two inches in diameter.  They contain some shortening and are
served hot.  _Chavacanes_, which are better known, are a mixture of the corn
meal with shortening and eggs.  They are made up into fat round or square
crackers, and cooked rapidly, as _tortillas_ are.  _Pemol_ is a corn cake
made from the same meal.  In consistency it is not unlike Scotch shortbread,
and it is made up in a variety of forms, from tiny cakes the size of a half
dollar and a quarter of an inch in thickness, to large horseshoe loaves which
are sold for special occasions and may be compared to German _Kaffeekuchen_.
The _gordas_, or "fat ones," are the Mexican sandwich, a thick layer of corn
meal inclosing meat, _chile_, and _frijoles_,  cooked, and eaten cold.
_Posole_, corn meal in big balls, cooked and cooled, forms, like the
_gordas_, a diet for long marches and particularly for long canoe trips where
fires cannot be lighted.  The Indians provided with this food are perfectly
equipped for a trip of several days.  The balls of meal are either eaten dry
or mixed with to a gruel with water scooped up from the boatside in the gourd
or half coconut shell which, with this food supply and his blanket,
constitute the Indian's "outing equipment."


(Below are two hits from GOOGLE and GOOGLE GROUPS--ed.)


        Posole - Native American Thanksgiving - vegan

Adapted for vegan

2 lg Cans of hominy
3 Or 4 cans of vegetable broth or stock
2 Or 3 green chiles (roasted and peeled)
1 lg 1015 onion, diced
3 Or 4 large carrots, diced
3 Or 4 stalks of celery diced
Salt and pepper to taste
1/2 ts Each oregano, garlic, cumin
1 tb Chile powder
Fresh cilantro, minced, 2 Tbsp

Yet another appropriate Thanksgiving dish is Posole, which is indigenous to
the Native American southwest. Posole is really considered most traditional
around Christmastime and is always served New Year's Eve and/or New Year's
Day for good luck. However, Pueblo peoples have made posole for generations
and it is a staple winter dish.

Saute the onions and celery until the onion is transparent. This can be done
with water and veggie stock or with spray-type coatings. Dump everything else
in and bring to a low boil. Simmer until you like the texture. The hominy
should be really soft, almost to the break-up-and-really-form-a-thick-stew
stage.

Serve posole with cornbread and a crisp green salad. If you wish to add any
animal protein, the original recipes call for pork or ham.
Please consider your tolerance for spices. The heat will come from the green
chiles and the chile powder, as well as the black pepper.


From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:harvey%40indyvax.iupui.edu+">James Harvey</A> (<A HREF="mailto:harvey%40indyvax.iupui.edu">harvey at indyvax.iupui.edu</A>)
Subject: Re: Pozole
View: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=1996Sep25.151340.26669%40indyvax.iupui.edu&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dpozole%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D1996Sep25.151340.26669%2540indyvax.iupui.edu%26rnum%3D1">Complete Thread (68 articles)</A>
<A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1996Sep25.151340.26669%40indyvax.iupui.edu&output=gplain">Original Format</A>
Newsgroups: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.food.cooking">rec.food.cooking</A>
Date: 1996/09/25

In article <01bbaa3c$a585f540$4a4884d0 at Mimir.datasync.com>, "Culinary
Curmudgeon" <unktahe at datasync.com> writes:> Here in the South we call pozole
"hominy"...According to Rick and Deann> Bayless in Authentic Mexican (1987)
pozole (or posole) is "half-cooked> hominy".  It is made from dried, white
field corn, boiled in slaked lime,> washed and then "deflowered" by picking
out the germ so that the kernel> will bloat as it cooks.Pozole is also the
name of a native Mexican dish, a soup/stew made withhominy.  Maybe that's how
it came to refer to hominy in the U.S. Southand Southwest.  Here is a recipe
from Lori Matiella-Murray's "Waking theDead with Tia Gloria's Chicken Pozole"
web page at<A HREF="http://www.mercado.com/comida/lori/pozole.htm">http://www.mercado.com/comida/lori/pozole.htm</A>PozoleIngredients:1
whole chicken1 cup nixtamal (hominy)1/2 cup dry pinto beansNew Mexico red
chile, powder formbay leavesoreganogarliconionGarnish:cilantrogreen
cabbagegreen onionslimesPreparation:Cook 1/2 cup of dried beans in water,
oregano, garlic, and onion.  Whenthere is about a half an hour of cooking
time left, add the hominy.Set aside the beans and hominy after they are
done.At the same time you are cooking the beans and hominy, cook the
chicken.Remove all the skin from one whole chicken.  Cook the chicken in
plentyof water, seasoned with salt, pepper, garlic, oregano, bay leaf,
etc.After the chicken is done, de-bone it, cut it into chunks, and return
itto the chicken broth.  The broth can be de-fatted prior to this step ifyou
desire.  To de-fat the broth, store it (and the cooked chicken)overnight in
the refrigerator>  In the morning, skim the congealed excessfat off the top.
There should be little need to do this if the chickenwas cooked without the
skin.Add the beans and hominy to the chicken and broth.  Depending on how
hotyou like your dishes, add 1/8 to 1/4 cup powdered New Mexico chile.If you
prefer it, at this point you can remove the pieces of onion andgarlic from
the broth.  Correct the seasoning.  Simmer for 10 minutes onlow heat to allow
the flavors to marry.Serve with a garnish of finely chopped cilantro, green
onion and shreddedcabbage.  Squirt a little lime juice on top.  Serve salsa
and flour tortillason the side.My notes on the recipe:The recipe author
included this note about obtaining nixtamal (hominy):You can find it in the
meat department, frozen food section or specialtyfood section in dry form.
In some parts of the Southwest, like New Mexico,nixtamal or hominy is called
posole.I haven't seen dried hominy around here so I just use canned.  I use
more(1 can, almost two cups) since I think the 1 cup quantity specified in
therecipe assumes that you are using the dried stuff.The dish appears to be
traditionally made with pork.  The recipe authoruses chicken for health
reasons.  See<A HREF="http://mexico.udg.mx/Ingles/Cocina/Sopas/pozole.html">http://mexico.udg.mx/Ingles/Cocina/Sopas/pozole.html</A>and, if your
Spanish is up to speed,<A HREF="http://mexico.udg.mx/Cocina/Sopas/Pozole1.html">http://mexico.udg.mx/Cocina/Sopas/Pozole1.html</A>The last
page has links to four regional recipes for pozole.Cook the beans in enough
water to cover.  The important things is to notlet them cook dry and burn.
This step can be done in a crockpot.  Trussthe chicken, with some of the
seasoning and herbs inside, and don't gooverboard on the water (remember it
is all going into the pozole and youdon't want it to end up too watery).  You
do want it covered though, ornearly so.If you are really really really in a
hurry you could probably use a small(14 oz.) can of beans, saute some cut-up
chicken pieces and use canned stock,but of course it won't be the same
thing.--James Harvey  harvey at iupui.edu  Disclaimer: My opinions; I don't
speak for IU.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  8 16:23:22 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 11:23:22 EST
Subject: Icebox lives on
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.112322.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/06/2002 9:03:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

> Frigidiare, I think.  Whence "fridge", although I suppose that could
>  also have come from "refrigerator".  The OED is open-minded about
>  which was the direct ancestor.

Ref: Alfred P. Sloan, Jr. _My Years with General Motors_ New York: Doubleday,
date uncertain but between 1963 and 1965, no ISBN.  all information is from
chapter 19.

A man named Alfred Mellowes organized the Guardian Frigerator Compnay in
Detroit in 1916.  When President Durant of General Motors purchased the
company in 1918, it had sold 34 of what it called an "iceless frigerator".
Durant renamed the compnay the Frigidaire Corporation, renamed the product
the "Frigidaire", and resold the compnay to GM.  The purcharse price was
$56,366.50, a bargain considering that as of Feb 21, 1921,

"Frigidaire Corporation: Located at Detroit , Mich. and makes Frigidaires
which up to the present have been a failure....Loss to date about $1,520,000."

Sloan also states:

"The original Kelvinator Corporation entered the electric-refrigerator field
in 1914 and was the first enterprise to manufacture mechanical refrigerators
for household use on a commercial scale.  General Electric and Norge entered
the field in 1927, Westinghouse in 1930.  By 1940, the last prewar year of
unregualted commercial production, Frigidaire's share fo therefrigerator
market---which had been above 50 per cent in the 1920s---was down to 20 to 25
per cent."

Also in 1937 Frigidaire (now a full-fledged division of GM) started expanding
into other applicanes, so that the Frigidaire brand name no longer applied
only to refrigerators.

Hope this data is of some use.

     - Jim Landau


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sun Dec  8 20:16:54 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:16:54 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021206150216.28414P-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.151654.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I learned "blacktop" growing up in Westchester County, just north of
NYC, and in NYC itself. To me the term was self-evident: there was the
black street outside the house, whose surface got soft on very hot
summer days. And I used the term recently without thinking about it in a
song (http://world.std.com/~mam/filks/WhenCons.html), wrt the paving
material of a driveway.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Sun Dec  8 23:11:17 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 17:11:17 -0600
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.171117.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Incidentally, I had never heard the term "macadam" used before.  If I have
heard anything but "blacktop" used for the black, tarry road-making
substance, it has been just "playground" -- as in the school's playground
surface.  School playgrounds up North are routinely paved with blacktop, so
they actually hold painted lines for games, and do not turn into massive mud
fields in the Spring and Fall.  The material still is used extensively for
paving roads -- in Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota anyway -- because it is
a relatively cheap way to smooth out a sometimes pocket-filled concrete
underlayment, and then still just smooth it over again with another layer,
when freeze/thaw cycles again decimate the road with potholes big enough to
lose your car in.  -- Millie

PS -- If it is not pronounced with almost equal stress on the first and last
syllables, then how it pronounced?  ("macadam", I mean)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A Mandel" <mam at THEWORLD.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: blacktop/macadam


> I learned "blacktop" growing up in Westchester County, just north of
> NYC, and in NYC itself. To me the term was self-evident: there was the
> black street outside the house, whose surface got soft on very hot
> summer days. And I used the term recently without thinking about it in a
> song (http://world.std.com/~mam/filks/WhenCons.html), wrt the paving
> material of a driveway.
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel
>


From Friolly at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  8 23:11:36 2002
From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 18:11:36 EST
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.181136.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/8/02 3:09:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
millie-webb at CHARTER.NET writes:


> PS -- If it is not pronounced with almost equal stress on the first and last
> syllables, then how it pronounced?  ("macadam", I mean)

Mc Adam


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Sun Dec  8 23:38:01 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 17:38:01 -0600
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.173801.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have to admit, I have never considered that "Canadian" English could be
considered "network standard", in spite of the recent tendencies of certain
networks' news anchors to hail from the Great White North.  I can usually
hear in the first ten minutes of talking with someone, if they are from
Canada, at least from outside, say, Toronto.  And even in Toronto, there are
a lot of variations that shout "Canada".

In my own academic experience  of trying to label "network standard" as
being "from somewhere", it was said to be Chicago, because that is where the
radio networks all started in big.  And I was so thrilled to see someone
citing Rosina Lippi-Green's book!  She taught my own "Non-standard English"
course when I was in graduate school, and it was populated at least half by
junior and senior undergrads who were majoring in English, and were
tremendously prescriptivist.  We found it amusing though, to consider
ChicAH[+nasal]go to be the seat of broadcast English, given all the odd
vowel expansions and contractions they seem to show these days (at least
twelve years ago).  Those vowel shifts seemed to be related to East Coast
city shifts, or West Coast bumpkin shifts (in the class's estimation at the
time, that included "ValleySpeak", surfers, counter-culture Gen X
skateboarders, and other such stereotyped sub-groupings of Californians and
Oregonians.

Rosina, if you see this, know I am well and think of you often!! -- Millie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Irons" <t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent



> BTW, I thought Network Standard was Canadian. Or Texan.  Or Nebraskan.
>
>
> **************************
> Terry Lynn Irons
>


From Friolly at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 01:35:50 2002
From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:35:50 EST
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.203550.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Out of curiosity, how were Oregonians stereotyped?  I didn't know anyone back
East ever even thought of Oregon.
Fritz



> Those vowel shifts seemed to be related to East Coast
> city shifts, or West Coast bumpkin shifts (in the class's estimation at the
> time, that included "ValleySpeak", surfers, counter-culture Gen X
> skateboarders, and other such stereotyped sub-groupings of Californians and
> Oregonians.
>
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 05:34:24 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 00:34:24 -0500
Subject: Pozole (1909)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.003424.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   More information for this raging ADS-L "pozole" debate.
   A new book is titled PILAF, POZOLE, AND PAD THAI: AMERICAN WOMEN AND ETHNIC FOOD (Amherst: University of Massachusetts, 2001) by Sherrie A. Inness.
   There are several hits in the NEW YORK TIMES.


   21 November 1909, NEW YORK TIMES, "Denies There's Salvery in Yucatan," pg. X9:
   ...he never tasted their everyday "atole" or "pozole," nor that special brandy with anis which they so willingly drink;...

   30 May 1926, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. XX9:
   In northern Yucatan he found Indians putting out bowls of posole (a drink made or corn) as offerings to the Wind God.

   31 May 1942, NEW YORK TIMES, "Fiery Dishes of the Southwest," pg. D5:
   Posole, made with hominy which is simmered all day long with fresh ham hocks, until the meat falls off the bones and disintegrates in the broth, calls for many hours of slow cooking.  Chili, onions and garlic are finally added to garnish the dish when served.  Albondigas are miniscule, peppery meatballs rolled in blue cornmeal and boiled for hours and hours, until a thick soup is formed.  "Angel's Dream"--the natives call it chiles rellenos--is huge peppers stuffed with chopped chicken and cheese, then dipped in a batter and deep-fried to a crispy brown.

   November 1937, SCIENTIFIC MONTHLY (JSTOR database), pg. 465:
   Mayas generally drink _pozole_, which consists of raw corn meal in cold water.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 05:56:28 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 00:56:28 -0500
Subject: Pad Thai (1975)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.005628.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    "Pad Thai" is not in OED and not in Merriam-Webster.  There are over 25,000 Google hits.
   The NEW YORK TIMES shows 16 pre-1986 hits, and 88 hits from 1986-1998.  We'll see next year if the LOS ANGELES TIMES can do better; perhaps Thai immigrants reached that shore first.
   I mentioned a book title (PILAF, POZOLE, AND PAD THAI: AMERICAN WOMEN AND ETHNIC FOOD (2001)) in the "pozole" post.

   3 January 1975, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 20:
   What Bangkok Cuisine can't offer in style it makes up in the authenticity of the Thai dishes, including noodle combinations as low as $1.95 that are a full meal.  The one we tried, at the lowest price, is described on the menu as "pad Thai rice stick noodle" and included shrimp, bits of tender white fish, bean sprouts and assorted spices.

(At Bangkok Cuisine, 885 Eighth Avenue, between 52d and 53d Streets...The TIMES reviewer orders the lowest price meal to review the restaurant?  Was he on a two dollar budget?--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 06:33:25 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 01:33:25 -0500
Subject: Friendly Skies (1933,
 1965); Thrill/Victory (1875); Agony/Defeat (1864)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.013325.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   United will possibly file for bankruptcy soon.  It is claimed that it coined "friendly skies."
   Roone Arledge recently died.  It is claimed that the producer of WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS and other shows coined "The Thrill of Victory, The Agony of Defeat."


FRIENDLY SKIES
   5 November 1965, NEW YORK TIMES, "New Campaign by United Air Lines," pg. 57:
   "The Extra Care Air Line" has just begun to advise the American public to "Fly the Friendly Skies of United."

   19 November 1933, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. SM11:
A SILENT EMPIRE IN THE ARCTIC CIRCLE:  There a visitor found friendly skies, flowers and men who thrive amid desolation.


THRILL OF VICTORY
   In 5 October 1875, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 2.  In a speech by General Sherman of his "March to the Sea."

AGONY OF DEFEAT
   In 26 December 1864, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 07:15:06 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 02:15:06 -0500
Subject: Nam Pla (Thai sauce, 1977)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.021506.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Thai restaurants are hardly rare in America.  OED probably won't get to "Pad Thai" in my lifetime, but "N" is coming up soon.
   The earliest cookbook under "Cookery, Thai" in the NYPL is EVERYDAY SIAMESE DISHES (1952), and the CATNYP records shows that it's--SURPRISE!--"missing."  It's also the earliest cookbook in the LOC, if it is indeed there.
   There are 4,640 Google hits for "Nam Pla."  "Nam pla" is also included in Sharon Herbst's dictionary on the epicurious.com site.


   2 February 1977, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 28:
_Thai Cuisine:  Hot, Hot Hot_ by Craig Claiborne
(...)  "Thai cooking," the couple noted, "relies heavily on Chinese and Indian for basic forms and tecniques; it is the pungent condiments such as fish sauce of nam pla; baked curry called nam prik pao and fresh coriander called pakchi that add much.  We also serve a pork satay which is originally Indonesian."

   4 February 1977, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 54:
_RESTAURANTS: The Exotic Charms of Thailand's Cuisine_ by Mimi Sheraton
(...)  Garlic, scallions, lemon juice and sugar or honey provide a familiar flavor spectrum with surprises coming through such exclusive Thai herbs as balm and grass; the limy rind and leaves of the makrut; horapa--a kind of sweet basil; soy sauce, and a fermented fish sauce, nam pla, that fortunately tastes much better than it smells, uncooked.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Mon Dec  9 08:26:17 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 01:26:17 -0700
Subject: Snuzzle -- is Google reliable?
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.012617.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A colleague the other day told me that he had heard someone on NPR use the
word "snuzzle", and though he found it highly expressive and
interpretable, said he had never heard it before, and wondered if I had.
It is familiar to me as a sort of combination of "snuggle" and "nuzzle"
(cf. also Jimmy Durante), typical of a cat burying its head in one's arm,
but out of curiosity I thought I'd take a look at Google, which is often
cited herein. It turned up 496 hits, but in checking out the first 150, I
found that about 145 of them concerned themselves with some series of toy
ponies (one even had a picture on his website) which seem to provoke the
most awful sentimental expressions from their owners. Of the 5 or so hits
which were not, several concerned sentimental doggerel about owners' cats,
which indulged in this activity, and only one, a website for Chambers
publications (dictionary, encyclopedia), focused on this as a language
item, including it in their "list of our favorite odd words" (which for
some reason would not print out from my screen). Maybe if I had taken time
to look at all 496 hits (slow, on my 56K modem connection), I would have
found three or four more of linguistic relevance.

        This leaves me wondering how usefully reliable hit statistics on
Google are sometimes.

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 09:18:11 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 04:18:11 -0500
Subject: Sake (1682)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.041811.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A NEW VOYAGE TO THE EAST INDIES,
CONTAINING AN ACCOUNT OF SEVERAL OF THOSE RICH COUNTRIES...
by Mr. Glanius
London: H. Rodes
1682
(EARLY ENGLISH BOOKS ONLINE database--ed.)

Pg. 168:
   ...they brought with 'em six little Barrels of _Saqui_, which is a strong drink made of several sorts of Corn, but wherein there is mostly Rice, and which suddles like Wine.


(OED and MERRIAM-WEBSTER have 1687 for "sake"...I've now done a whole lot of Japanese food, including "sashimi" and "sukiyaki," with "California roll" and "sushi bar" coming with LOS ANGELES TIMES full text...IS ANYONE IN _THE NEW YORK TIMES_ FOOD SECTION LISTENING?  I'M BARRY POPIK!  I LIVE IN NEW YORK CITY!  MANY YEARS AGO, I SOLVED THE "HOT DOG," A POPULAR AMERICAN FOOD!  AND THEN--ah, forget it--ed.)


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Mon Dec  9 09:23:01 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 09:23:01 -0000
Subject: Friendly Skies (1933,
 1965); Thrill/Victory (1875); Agony/Defeat (1864)
In-Reply-To: <557CAE36.35A08E1F.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.092301.0000.>

Barry Popik wrote:

> FRIENDLY SKIES
> 19 November 1933, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. SM11: A SILENT
> EMPIRE IN THE ARCTIC CIRCLE:  There a visitor found friendly
> skies, flowers and men who thrive amid desolation.

Even isolated from its direct airline associations, it's the sort
of phrase that a writer might occasionally come up with. For
example, Gail Haminton in her "Gala-Days" of 1863:

"And of all beautiful things that could have been thought of or
hoped for, what should come to crown our queen of days but a
thunder-storm, a most real and vivid thunder-storm, marshalling up
from the west its grand, cumulose clouds; black, jagged, bulging
with impatient, prisoned thunder biding their time, sharp and
fierce against the brilliant sky, spreading swiftly over the
heavens, fusing into one great gray pall, dropping a dim curtain of
rain between us and the land, closing down upon us a hollow
hemisphere pierced with shafts of fire and deafening with unseen
thunders, wresting us off from the friendly skies and shores,
wrapping us into an awful solitude."


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Dec  9 09:07:26 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 04:07:26 -0500
Subject: Snuzzle -- is Google reliable?
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.040726.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU,Net writes:
>        This leaves me wondering how usefully reliable hit statistics on
>Google are sometimes.

My experience leads me to believe that, while googling a word or phrase
can be revealing, Google is among the the least reliable of the many
electronic resources available to linguists.  It did lead me to some
sources for very rare terms, such as _eighteen-wheeler_ for a kind of
enzyme.

Season's greetings to all,
David Barnhart
barnhart at highlands.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Dec  9 11:17:49 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:17:49 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <008301c29f12$d91169e0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.061749.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I still find it strange that you guys don't just ask the recognized
experts on SAE (aka "network standard") where it is. Can't you afford
a phone call to MI?

dInIs


I have to admit, I have never considered that "Canadian" English could be
considered "network standard", in spite of the recent tendencies of certain
networks' news anchors to hail from the Great White North.  I can usually
hear in the first ten minutes of talking with someone, if they are from
Canada, at least from outside, say, Toronto.  And even in Toronto, there are
a lot of variations that shout "Canada".

In my own academic experience  of trying to label "network standard" as
being "from somewhere", it was said to be Chicago, because that is where the
radio networks all started in big.  And I was so thrilled to see someone
citing Rosina Lippi-Green's book!  She taught my own "Non-standard English"
course when I was in graduate school, and it was populated at least half by
junior and senior undergrads who were majoring in English, and were
tremendously prescriptivist.  We found it amusing though, to consider
ChicAH[+nasal]go to be the seat of broadcast English, given all the odd
vowel expansions and contractions they seem to show these days (at least
twelve years ago).  Those vowel shifts seemed to be related to East Coast
city shifts, or West Coast bumpkin shifts (in the class's estimation at the
time, that included "ValleySpeak", surfers, counter-culture Gen X
skateboarders, and other such stereotyped sub-groupings of Californians and
Oregonians.

Rosina, if you see this, know I am well and think of you often!! -- Millie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Irons" <t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent



>  BTW, I thought Network Standard was Canadian. Or Texan.  Or Nebraskan.
>
>
>  **************************
>  Terry Lynn Irons
>

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM  Mon Dec  9 12:18:05 2002
From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 07:18:05 -0500
Subject: Not-quite-homophonic errors
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.071805.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is there an official name for the type of verbal error where a person
substitutes a nearly homophonic word for the correct word, such as a person
writing "eminent" when they mean "imminent"?

Thanks.

Paul
http://www.wordspy.com/


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 13:13:34 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:13:34 -0500
Subject: Friendly Skies (1933,
 1965); Thrill/Victory (1875); Agony/Defeat (1864)
In-Reply-To: <557CAE36.35A08E1F.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.081334.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking of victory and defeat, Barry, what is the earliest you can find
for the phrase "snatch victory from the jaws of defeat"?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Dec  9 13:23:14 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:23:14 -0500
Subject: Not-quite-homophonic errors
In-Reply-To: <142101c29f7d$073bc080$ef9afea9@paul>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.082314.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, the word for this so-called substitution or error (sic) is
"Standard English," although I understand that in some recalcitrant
dialect areas they distinguish between /E/ and /I/ before nasals.


dInIs





Is there an official name for the type of verbal error where a person
substitutes a nearly homophonic word for the correct word, such as a person
writing "eminent" when they mean "imminent"?

Thanks.

Paul
http://www.wordspy.com/

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 13:27:22 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:27:22 EST
Subject: Not-quite-homophonic errors
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.082722.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/9/02 7:18:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM writes:

> Is there an official name for the type of verbal error where a person
>  substitutes a nearly homophonic word for the correct word, such as a person
>  writing "eminent" when they mean "imminent"?

If the result is amusing, it is called a "malaprop" or "malapropism".

      - Jim Landau


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Mon Dec  9 13:43:57 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:43:57 -0000
Subject: Friendly Skies (1933,
 1965); Thrill/Victory (1875); Agony/Defeat (1864)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0212090812100.14256-100000@minerva>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.134357.0000.>

> Speaking of victory and defeat, Barry, what is the earliest you
> can find for the phrase "snatch victory from the jaws of defeat"?

As a marker, the earliest I can find is this from Ralph Connor's
"The Foreigner: A Tale of Saskatchewan" of 1909 (Chapter 17): "All
the old, easy, lazy air was gone. In every line of his handsome
face, in every movement of his body, there showed vigour and
determination. The old English fighting spirit was roused, whose
tradition it was to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat and
despair".

What about the much more recent inverse, to snatch defeat from the
jaws of victory?

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Dec  9 14:21:09 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:21:09 -0800
Subject: Which and Falaqa
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212061348330.77669293-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.062109.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My bad.  I was trying to recall from memory what I had
seen ... and missed.  The point of my message was
seeking to understaand the seeming shift from "k" to
"q" in the English spelling of words of Arabic origin.

--- Mark A Mandel <mam at THEWORLD.COM> wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, James Smith wrote:
>
> #"Koran" is seen as "Q'run" more frequently.
>
> Than what? I have *never* seen "Q'run" for "Koran",
> or anything else
> AFIAR; out of context I would pronounce it
> "kyoo-run". I have
> occasionally seen "Qur'an" (optional macron on the
> "a").
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Dec  9 15:14:25 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:14:25 -0500
Subject: Sake (1682)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.101425.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does the saqui "suddle" [?] like wine, or "fuddle" [make drunk] like wine?  There may have been a "long s" here.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Date: Monday, December 9, 2002 4:18 am
Subject: Sake (1682)

> A NEW VOYAGE TO THE EAST INDIES,
> CONTAINING AN ACCOUNT OF SEVERAL OF THOSE RICH COUNTRIES...
> by Mr. Glanius
> London: H. Rodes
> 1682
> (EARLY ENGLISH BOOKS ONLINE database--ed.)
>
> Pg. 168:
>   ...they brought with 'em six little Barrels of _Saqui_, which
> is a strong drink made of several sorts of Corn, but wherein there
> is mostly Rice, and which suddles like Wine.
>
>
> (OED and MERRIAM-WEBSTER have 1687 for "sake"...I've now done a
> whole lot of Japanese food, including "sashimi" and "sukiyaki,"
> with "California roll" and "sushi bar" coming with LOS ANGELES
> TIMES full text...IS ANYONE IN _THE NEW YORK TIMES_ FOOD SECTION
> LISTENING?  I'M BARRY POPIK!  I LIVE IN NEW YORK CITY!  MANY YEARS
> AGO, I SOLVED THE "HOT DOG," A POPULAR AMERICAN FOOD!  AND THEN--
> ah, forget it--ed.)
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Dec  9 15:25:52 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:25:52 -0500
Subject: Nam Pla (Thai sauce, 1977)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.102552.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry says "The earliest cookbook under "Cookery, Thai" in the NYPL is EVERYDAY SIAMESE DISHES (1952), and the CATNYP records shows that it's--SURPRISE!--"missing." "

Barry and anyone else who has every used the NYPL has seen that the security checks there are nugatory, and, indeed, anyone who can't steal a book from the NYPL is too dumb to make use of the book, anyway.  AT one time the NYPL at least required that readers leave their coats and briefcases in a cloak room, but it has these last ten years or so dropped even that precaution.

I have more than once observed here that someone has stolen every book on some subject -- clocks, medieval pilgrimage, the Loeb Classical Library, all 1000 volumes.  I suppose that the many cookbooks Barry has complained of a "missing" from NYPL have been stolen by the same person, who may also have stolen the ones missing from Library of Congress, too.

People want their libraries to be open, welcoming, not intimidating, but that comes with a price.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 15:48:18 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:48:18 -0500
Subject: Friendly Skies (1933,
 1965); Thrill/Victory (1875); Agony/Defeat (1864)
In-Reply-To: <3DF49E1D.15390.106AD76@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.104818.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Michael Quinion wrote:

> What about the much more recent inverse, to snatch defeat from the
> jaws of victory?

Actually, I think this is what I intended to ask about.  In any case, I am
interested in the origins of BOTH versions.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 16:37:29 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:37:29 -0500
Subject: Research on second dialect acquisition
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021206230859.00a9fec0@lamar.colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.113729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Karl Krahnke said:
>Although I do quite a bit of work in the area of  regional dialect and even
>pronunciation teaching (when forced), I have never looked hard for research
>evidence, descriptive or experimental, on the difficulty or ease of
>different/second dialect  acquisition. Like Beverly Flanigan, I have
>assumed it was difficult and rare, but I have not come across research that
>looks specifically at that phenomenon. There are no references to it in
>Rosina Lippi-Green's _English with an Accent_, which is one place I would
>expect to find some references. Could someone help me by pointing me to
>specific studies on that specific question?
>
>I am also doing some work on regulation and judgment of language in the
>context of employment. A basic legal issue there is whether and to what
>degree language is a "mutable characteristic." I am not aware of compelling
>evidence that accent, for one, is not mutable, though I would certainly
>like to think that is generally the case.
>
>So, again, any suggestions would be helpful. (I'll of course look on my own
>also.)

Jack Chambers had a paper a number of years ago in Language called
Dialect Acquisition, about Canadian children who moved to England.
You might also look for papers by Julie Roberts and Arvilla Payne on
Philadelphia English. Roberts'
paper (co-authored by Labov?) was in Language Variation and Change a
number of years ago; it should have a reference to Payne's earlier
work.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 16:51:03 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:51:03 EST
Subject: Possible antedating for "you all"
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.115103.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

letter of 15th February, 1771 by Joshua Hart of "Charles Town", South
Carolina, quoted in Jacob Rader Marcus _Early American Jewry, Volume II_
Philadeplphia: Jewish Publication Society of America, 1953, no ISBN. page 250.

<begin quote>
Mrs. Hart and family joins me in wishing you and family, your brother Abram
and family, the widow Lopez and children, and Mr. David Lopez,and the rest of
your worthy family, a merry Purim, and may the Good of Israel set a blessing
on you all, and am, with sincerity,
   Your assured friend and most obedient servant,
    Joshua Hart
<end quote>

note: "Good" probably should read "God"

I don't know whether to claim this as an early usage of the second person
plural "you all" or "y'all" that is widely used in the speech of the Southern
United States.  In favor of such a claim: this letter was written in
Charleston, South Carolina, which is in the Southern US, by a man who had
lived in Charleston for at least nine years (page 249 "He had been in
business in Charlestown at least since 1762, when we first run across his
advertisements.")

        - James A. Landau
          systems engineer
          FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI)
          Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec  9 16:53:28 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:53:28 -0500
Subject: Nam Pla (Thai sauce, 1977)
In-Reply-To: <45B041A7.4CC36805.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.115328.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 02:15:06AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Thai restaurants are hardly rare in America.  OED probably
>won't get to "Pad Thai" in my lifetime, but "N" is coming up
>soon.

Just to give you a point of reference, our first cite for
_nam pla_ is currently 1969.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Dec  9 16:55:08 2002
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:55:08 -0800
Subject: Not-quite-homophonic errors
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.085508.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

jim landau wrote:
 >In a message dated 12/9/02 7:18:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
 >mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM writes:

  >> Is there an official name for the type of verbal error where a
  >> person substitutes a nearly homophonic word for the correct word,
  >>  such as a person writing "eminent" when they mean "imminent"?

 >If the result is amusing, it is called a "malaprop" or
 >"malapropism".

there are two sorts of phenomena here, both involving substitution of
one word for another, based on phonological similarity (and usually
semantic similarity as well).  in one, the substitution is "on-line"
and unintended, something the speaker/writer would recognize as a
mistake if it was pointed out; these are the "malapropisms" of fay and
cutler ("Malapropisms and the structure of the mental lexicon",
Linguistic Inquiry 1977).  in the other, the speaker/writer intends to
use the word produced, but it's a mistake from the point of view of
the surrounding community; these are the errors of the original
mrs. malapop, which i've called "classical malapropisms" ("Classical
malapropisms", Language Sciences 1979).  it's not always easy to tell
which thing you're confronted with, of course, though fay/cutler
malapropisms are often self-corrected (eve clark at stanford
linguistics faculty meeting, 11/12/02: "It's been very widely
decimated... disseminated..."; me in conversation the very same day:
"Planet Auto ReLAY Shop...  RePAIR Shop").

both types, but especially classical malapropisms, can serve as
sources of linguistic change.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 17:08:57 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:08:57 -0500
Subject: Possible antedating for "you all"
In-Reply-To: <187.12705131.2b2623f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.120857.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:51 AM -0500 12/9/02, James A. Landau wrote:
>letter of 15th February, 1771 by Joshua Hart of "Charles Town", South
>Carolina, quoted in Jacob Rader Marcus _Early American Jewry, Volume II_
>Philadeplphia: Jewish Publication Society of America, 1953, no ISBN. page 250.
>
><begin quote>
>Mrs. Hart and family joins me in wishing you and family, your brother Abram
>and family, the widow Lopez and children, and Mr. David Lopez,and the rest of
>your worthy family, a merry Purim, and may the Good of Israel set a blessing
>on you all, and am, with sincerity,
>    Your assured friend and most obedient servant,
>     Joshua Hart
><end quote>
>
>note: "Good" probably should read "God"
>
>I don't know whether to claim this as an early usage of the second person
>plural "you all" or "y'all" that is widely used in the speech of the Southern
>United States.  In favor of such a claim: this letter was written in
>Charleston, South Carolina, which is in the Southern US, by a man who had
>lived in Charleston for at least nine years (page 249 "He had been in
>business in Charlestown at least since 1762, when we first run across his
>advertisements.")
>
But of course, as you imply, it could also be the standard "floated
quantifier" sense = 'all of you'.  It sounds perfectly consistent
with my non-southern competence (= a blessing on you all, rather than
= a blessing on youze/y'all).

Larry


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Mon Dec  9 18:30:34 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:30:34 -0500
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.133034.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A student last year from Chillicothe, Ohio (central Ohio but still
Appalachian) used "boot" and claimed others in her community did also--so it
may be S Mid; I'm sure bev Flanigan can give more citations.
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 19:07:32 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:07:32 -0500
Subject: Possible antedating for "you all"
In-Reply-To: <p0432040eba1a7e1bc3b4@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.140732.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn said:
>At 11:51 AM -0500 12/9/02, James A. Landau wrote:
>>letter of 15th February, 1771 by Joshua Hart of "Charles Town", South
>>Carolina, quoted in Jacob Rader Marcus _Early American Jewry, Volume II_
>>Philadeplphia: Jewish Publication Society of America, 1953, no
>>ISBN. page 250.
>>
>><begin quote>
>>Mrs. Hart and family joins me in wishing you and family, your brother Abram
>>and family, the widow Lopez and children, and Mr. David Lopez,and the rest of
>>your worthy family, a merry Purim, and may the Good of Israel set a blessing
>>on you all, and am, with sincerity,
>>     Your assured friend and most obedient servant,
>>      Joshua Hart
>><end quote>
>>
>>note: "Good" probably should read "God"
>>
>>I don't know whether to claim this as an early usage of the second person
>>plural "you all" or "y'all" that is widely used in the speech of the Southern
>>United States.  In favor of such a claim: this letter was written in
>>Charleston, South Carolina, which is in the Southern US, by a man who had
>>lived in Charleston for at least nine years (page 249 "He had been in
>>business in Charlestown at least since 1762, when we first run across his
>>advertisements.")
>>
>But of course, as you imply, it could also be the standard "floated
>quantifier" sense = 'all of you'.  It sounds perfectly consistent
>with my non-southern competence (= a blessing on you all, rather than
>= a blessing on youze/y'all).

That particular phrase "may the God of Israel set a blessing on you
all" strikes me as a translation from Hebrew, which has a sg/pl
distinction for pronouns. (The Hebrew would be something like
"vayivarech etxem elohey-yisrael", where the suffix -xem on the
accusative particle et is 2nd person masculine plural; singular would
be etxa.)
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Mon Dec  9 19:21:38 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:21:38 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.142138.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My first father-in-law (b. Bavaria, 1899) used "colprovia" (which I had
always assumed was Germanic Kohlprovia--but a google search reveals it's a
kind of asphalt).  The term "blacktop" differentiates by color in comparison
with "white" concrete.
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec  9 19:23:01 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:23:01 -0500
Subject: Snuzzle -- is Google reliable?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212090112560.10854-100000@ptah.u.arizona.ed u>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.142301.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Whether on Google or not, I like the blend I used with my son when he was a
baby:  "Let's huggle."

At 01:26 AM 12/9/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>A colleague the other day told me that he had heard someone on NPR use the
>word "snuzzle", and though he found it highly expressive and
>interpretable, said he had never heard it before, and wondered if I had.
>It is familiar to me as a sort of combination of "snuggle" and "nuzzle"
>(cf. also Jimmy Durante), typical of a cat burying its head in one's arm,
>but out of curiosity I thought I'd take a look at Google, which is often
>cited herein. It turned up 496 hits, but in checking out the first 150, I
>found that about 145 of them concerned themselves with some series of toy
>ponies (one even had a picture on his website) which seem to provoke the
>most awful sentimental expressions from their owners. Of the 5 or so hits
>which were not, several concerned sentimental doggerel about owners' cats,
>which indulged in this activity, and only one, a website for Chambers
>publications (dictionary, encyclopedia), focused on this as a language
>item, including it in their "list of our favorite odd words" (which for
>some reason would not print out from my screen). Maybe if I had taken time
>to look at all 496 hits (slow, on my 56K modem connection), I would have
>found three or four more of linguistic relevance.
>
>         This leaves me wondering how usefully reliable hit statistics on
>Google are sometimes.
>
>         Rudy


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Mon Dec  9 19:44:10 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:44:10 -0600
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.134410.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oregonians -- to the extent that Michiganders knew of their existence --
were thought to be obsessive skateboarding (some drug-using) Curt Cobain
fans (or however he spelled it), who dressed in at least half-rags, and
tried to sound like surfers, when they spoke in multiple syllables at all.
As I say, young Gen-X subculture types.  This was the stereotype I heard the
most at the time.  Then again, the classmates I spoke of were in Education
(sorry, I think I said English), and Michiganders tended to be quite
snobbish when it came to having a corner on the "correctness" market.  As
dEnIs has pointed out before.  I find it very odd that a people who
pronounce "milk" as [mElk], Wisconsin as [wEsconsIn], and have to say "ink
pen" for "pen", because they say [pIn] for "pen", claim to be the seat of
SAE.  Drove me nuts at the time, although I have since then decided it is
just "cute" and amusing.  :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fritz Juengling" <Friolly at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


> Out of curiosity, how were Oregonians stereotyped?  I didn't know anyone
back
> East ever even thought of Oregon.
> Fritz
>
>
>
> > Those vowel shifts seemed to be related to East Coast
> > city shifts, or West Coast bumpkin shifts (in the class's estimation at
the
> > time, that included "ValleySpeak", surfers, counter-culture Gen X
> > skateboarders, and other such stereotyped sub-groupings of Californians
and
> > Oregonians.
> >
> >
>


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Mon Dec  9 19:56:37 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:56:37 -0600
Subject: "Mispronouncing" names
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.135637.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry, [dInIs], I mistyped your name in my own pronunciation in stead of yours.  There we go again on "mispronouncing" names.  

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Millie Webb" <millie-webb at CHARTER.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


 Then again, the classmates I spoke of were in Education
> (sorry, I think I said English), and Michiganders tended to be quite
> snobbish when it came to having a corner on the "correctness" market.  As
> dEnIs has pointed out before.  


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec  9 20:04:39 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:04:39 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <006101c29fbb$588ef5e0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.150439.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:

> dEnIs has pointed out before.  I find it very odd that a people who
> pronounce "milk" as [mElk], Wisconsin as [wEsconsIn],

For what it's worth, I still say ELL-i-noi and EN-dee-an-uh, too. Do
people from Illinois say that, or is it just Michiganders?

(Many of my Michigan features have fallen by the wayside after I moved
out east, but this is not one of those. It'll always be mElk for me!


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Dec  9 20:10:14 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:10:14 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <006101c29fbb$588ef5e0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.121014.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think of the following description of Oregonians as mostly applying to
the Puget Sound region, the home of Nirvana and Kurt Cobain, the flannel-
shirts grunge-look, skateboards, etc. For me, Gen(eration)-X is more of a
historical marker for the generation born between 1961 and 1981 that isn't
really typical of any one area. I never though to the grunge movement or
Gen-X members, especially those from Washington or Oregon to have much
connection with surfers or surfer speech (consciously or otherwise).

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:

> Oregonians -- to the extent that Michiganders knew of their existence --
> were thought to be obsessive skateboarding (some drug-using) Curt Cobain
> fans (or however he spelled it), who dressed in at least half-rags, and
> tried to sound like surfers, when they spoke in multiple syllables at all.
> As I say, young Gen-X subculture types.  This was the stereotype I heard the
> most at the time.  Then again, the classmates I spoke of were in Education
> (sorry, I think I said English), and Michiganders tended to be quite
> snobbish when it came to having a corner on the "correctness" market.  As
> dEnIs has pointed out before.  I find it very odd that a people who
> pronounce "milk" as [mElk], Wisconsin as [wEsconsIn], and have to say "ink
> pen" for "pen", because they say [pIn] for "pen", claim to be the seat of
> SAE.  Drove me nuts at the time, although I have since then decided it is
> just "cute" and amusing.  :-)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fritz Juengling" <Friolly at AOL.COM>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 7:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>
>
> > Out of curiosity, how were Oregonians stereotyped?  I didn't know anyone
> back
> > East ever even thought of Oregon.
> > Fritz
> >
> >
> >
> > > Those vowel shifts seemed to be related to East Coast
> > > city shifts, or West Coast bumpkin shifts (in the class's estimation at
> the
> > > time, that included "ValleySpeak", surfers, counter-culture Gen X
> > > skateboarders, and other such stereotyped sub-groupings of Californians
> and
> > > Oregonians.
> > >
> > >
> >
>


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Mon Dec  9 20:16:46 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:16:46 -0600
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.141646.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I was looking at Michiganders supposedly backing [E] to "schwa", I had
to specifically shut out environments of [E] before nasals and before most
[l] (though this was lexical), or my data got all messed up.  Elsewhere, I
found that [E] tended to move towards [schwa - upside down 'e'], in words
like "bet", "eggs", and so on.  Also except before nasals, [I] tended to
shift down towards [E], as in W[E]sconsin, "mix", "ticket", and so on.
That's where Ellinois and Endiana come from, it seems.  My mother-in-law,
who was born, raised and had a family in Michigan, will insist she does NOT
say WEsconsin, but WEsconsin, and not mElk, but mElk.  I think she honestly
cannot hear the difference between [E] and [I] in many places.  -- Millie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Kl." <stevekl at PANIX.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


> On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:
>
> > dEnIs has pointed out before.  I find it very odd that a people who
> > pronounce "milk" as [mElk], Wisconsin as [wEsconsIn],
>
> For what it's worth, I still say ELL-i-noi and EN-dee-an-uh, too. Do
> people from Illinois say that, or is it just Michiganders?
>
> (Many of my Michigan features have fallen by the wayside after I moved
> out east, but this is not one of those. It'll always be mElk for me!
>


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Dec  9 19:30:15 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:30:15 -0500
Subject: Snuzzle -- is Google reliable?
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.143015.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

flanigan at OHIOU.EDU,Net writes:
>Whether on Google or not, I like the blend I used with my son when he
>was a
>baby:  "Let's huggle."

My boys still like to "huggle."

Regards,
David Barnhart


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 21:01:04 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 16:01:04 -0500
Subject: Possible antedating for "you all"
In-Reply-To: <a05200f04ba1a99e8d704@[130.132.95.208]>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.160104.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:07 PM -0500 12/9/02, Alice Faber wrote:
>Laurence Horn said:
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't know whether to claim this as an early usage of the second person
>>>plural "you all" or "y'all" that is widely used in the speech of
>>>the Southern
>>>United States.  In favor of such a claim: this letter was written in
>>>Charleston, South Carolina, which is in the Southern US, by a man who had
>>>lived in Charleston for at least nine years (page 249 "He had been in
>>>business in Charlestown at least since 1762, when we first run across his
>>>advertisements.")
>>>
>>But of course, as you imply, it could also be the standard "floated
>>quantifier" sense = 'all of you'.  It sounds perfectly consistent
>>with my non-southern competence (= a blessing on you all, rather than
>>= a blessing on youze/y'all).
>
>That particular phrase "may the God of Israel set a blessing on you
>all" strikes me as a translation from Hebrew, which has a sg/pl
>distinction for pronouns. (The Hebrew would be something like
>"vayivarech etxem elohey-yisrael", where the suffix -xem on the
>accusative particle et is 2nd person masculine plural; singular would
>be etxa.)
>--
>===================================================================
That still doesn't tell us whether the "you all" is a precursor to
the southern "y'all" or "you-all".  For example, I can imagine using
"vous tous" here in French, even though French of course makes a
distinction between "tu" and "vous" (although not strictly on the
lines of number, since the latter is used for second plural polite).
So in French, the "tous" wouldn't necessarily be needed to
disambiguate for number and would in fact have the "all of you"
meaning.

Compare Tiny Tim's "God bless you, every one", signalling not "you
(pl.) as opposed to (sg.)" but the fact that the set of blessees
extends to every member of the set of addressees, with nobody left
out.

Larry


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Mon Dec  9 21:18:58 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:18:58 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.131858.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wow! Amazing how distorted things can be! I think Curt and his band, Nirvana, were from Seattle, the alleged home of grunge, which is what I think you are describing. As far as sounding like surfers--I don't think so. I can't imagine anyone trying to sound like a surfer here. That's just a different culture.  (Also, the water's too cold to be into surfing, unless you have a thick wet suit).  I guess we Oregonians are just 'out there' (i.e. West) and are largely unknown.  That's just fine.
Fritz



>>> millie-webb at CHARTER.NET 12/09/02 11:44AM >>>
Oregonians -- to the extent that Michiganders knew of their existence --
were thought to be obsessive skateboarding (some drug-using) Curt Cobain
fans (or however he spelled it), who dressed in at least half-rags, and
tried to sound like surfers, when they spoke in multiple syllables at all.
As I say, young Gen-X subculture types.  This was the stereotype I heard the
most at the time.  Then again, the classmates I spoke of were in Education
(sorry, I think I said English), and Michiganders tended to be quite
snobbish when it came to having a corner on the "correctness" market.  As
dEnIs has pointed out before.  I find it very odd that a people who
pronounce "milk" as [mElk], Wisconsin as [wEsconsIn], and have to say "ink
pen" for "pen", because they say [pIn] for "pen", claim to be the seat of
SAE.  Drove me nuts at the time, although I have since then decided it is
just "cute" and amusing.  :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fritz Juengling" <Friolly at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


> Out of curiosity, how were Oregonians stereotyped?  I didn't know anyone
back
> East ever even thought of Oregon.
> Fritz
>
>
>
> > Those vowel shifts seemed to be related to East Coast
> > city shifts, or West Coast bumpkin shifts (in the class's estimation at
the
> > time, that included "ValleySpeak", surfers, counter-culture Gen X
> > skateboarders, and other such stereotyped sub-groupings of Californians
and
> > Oregonians.
> >
> >
>


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Dec  9 21:18:53 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 16:18:53 -0500
Subject: Possible antedating for "you all"
In-Reply-To: <p04320400ba1ab3a74cba@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.161853.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:

#Compare Tiny Tim's "God bless you, every one", signalling not "you
#(pl.) as opposed to (sg.)" but the fact that the set of blessees
#extends to every member of the set of addressees, with nobody left
#out.

I'm pretty sure that that's "God bless <us>, every one." Not that the
failure of this citation invalidates your point.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec  9 22:20:04 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:20:04 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <sdf4985f.070@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.142004.0800.PRICHARD@LINFIELD.EDU>

Yep, Fritz has it right. It's too cold to surf here in Oregon, and
skateboard wheels rust in all the rain. Poorly paid faculty do dress in
half-rags--but that's hardly unique to the Northwest. And as for the
"largely unknown" part, I agree with Fritz in that as well. I've heard
California's very nice, however.

PR


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec  9 22:45:33 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:45:33 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <sdf4985f.070@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.144533.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oregon--lessee, isn't that somewhere up there near Seattle???

Too bad the rags stereotype hadn't arisen during the Tom McCall era--it
would have furnished a great addition to the series of "Oregon ungreeting
cards."  (Text of one I remember: "In summer, Oregonians don't tan...(open
card)...they rust.")

Peter Mc.

--On Monday, December 9, 2002 1:18 PM -0800 FRITZ JUENGLING
<juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:

> I guess we Oregonians are just 'out there' (i.e. West) and are largely
> unknown.  That's just fine.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec  9 22:46:14 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:46:14 -0800
Subject: mentor/mentee
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021209141515.20329F-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.144614.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone heard _mentee_? The pattern is obvious (cf. lessor/lessee), but
I wonder about the specific form. (Personally, I like manatee.)

Thanks.

Peter R.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec  9 22:47:49 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:47:49 -0500
Subject: mentor/mentee
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021209144451.20329G-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.174749.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 02:46:14PM -0800, Peter Richardson wrote:
> Has anyone heard _mentee_? The pattern is obvious (cf. lessor/lessee), but
> I wonder about the specific form. (Personally, I like manatee.)

OED Online has an entry for _mentee_ with a first cite from 1965.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 22:58:00 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:58:00 -0500
Subject: mentor/mentee
In-Reply-To: <20021209224749.GA7039@panix.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.175800.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:47 PM -0500 12/9/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 02:46:14PM -0800, Peter Richardson wrote:
>>  Has anyone heard _mentee_? The pattern is obvious (cf. lessor/lessee), but
>>  I wonder about the specific form. (Personally, I like manatee.)
>
>OED Online has an entry for _mentee_ with a first cite from 1965.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower
>OED

I've certainly heard it since the late sixties, and it's always
mentioned in discussions of the -ee suffix.

Larry


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 23:00:35 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 18:00:35 EST
Subject: Evans Digital Edition
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.180035.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry or Fred may have already mentioned this, so apologies if I'm repeating.
But I have just learned today of a project to provide complete digital
searchable access to every published item in America from 1639 to 1800. It is
called Evans Digital Edition, presented by the distinguished American
Antiquarian Society, and available from Readex. Here is the website:

http://www.readex.com/scholarl/eai_digi.html

This will jump start our knowledge of early American vocabulary, y'all.

Not that it's free. My small-college library was quoted a prepublication
offer of about $30,000, plus annual maintenance fee of $1000.

- Allan Metcalf


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 23:34:00 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 18:34:00 -0500
Subject: Possible antedating for "you all"
In-Reply-To: <p04320400ba1ab3a74cba@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.183400.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn said:
>At 2:07 PM -0500 12/9/02, Alice Faber wrote:
>>Laurence Horn said:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I don't know whether to claim this as an early usage of the second person
>>>>plural "you all" or "y'all" that is widely used in the speech of
>>>>the Southern
>>>>United States.  In favor of such a claim: this letter was written in
>>>>Charleston, South Carolina, which is in the Southern US, by a man who had
>>>>lived in Charleston for at least nine years (page 249 "He had been in
>>>>business in Charlestown at least since 1762, when we first run across his
>>>>advertisements.")
>>>>
>>>But of course, as you imply, it could also be the standard "floated
>>>quantifier" sense = 'all of you'.  It sounds perfectly consistent
>>>with my non-southern competence (= a blessing on you all, rather than
>>>= a blessing on youze/y'all).
>>
>>That particular phrase "may the God of Israel set a blessing on you
>>all" strikes me as a translation from Hebrew, which has a sg/pl
>>distinction for pronouns. (The Hebrew would be something like
>>"vayivarech etxem elohey-yisrael", where the suffix -xem on the
>>accusative particle et is 2nd person masculine plural; singular would
>>be etxa.)
>>--
>>===================================================================
>That still doesn't tell us whether the "you all" is a precursor to
>the southern "y'all" or "you-all".  For example, I can imagine using
>"vous tous" here in French, even though French of course makes a
>distinction between "tu" and "vous" (although not strictly on the
>lines of number, since the latter is used for second plural polite).
>So in French, the "tous" wouldn't necessarily be needed to
>disambiguate for number and would in fact have the "all of you"
>meaning.
>
>Compare Tiny Tim's "God bless you, every one", signalling not "you
>(pl.) as opposed to (sg.)" but the fact that the set of blessees
>extends to every member of the set of addressees, with nobody left
>out.

Sure, but I'm not sure whether we could say anything definite based
on one tantalizing example that admits multiple interpretations. Of
course, if we took that caveat seriously, we wouldn't have anything
to talk about here! All I can say is that the Hebrew 'etxem' isn't in
the least emphatic; it's just what the grammar requires with multiple
addressees. You could add to it an emphatic "kulxem" ("all of you
(all)"), which, I think, is parallel to your French example. Whether
the English is, due to grammatical differences between the two
languages, more emphatic than the Hebrew is an interesting question.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Dec  9 23:50:47 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:50:47 -0600
Subject: react (n)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.175047.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On NPR's Sunday Weekend Edition yesterday, a reporter (Don Gonyea) used 'react' as a noun. The quote is: "Here's the official react from the White House in the form of a brief, less than 100-word statement from the press secretary, Ari Fleischer."

Has anyone heard this before? I wondered if it is a common journalistic shorthand or just an idiosyncrasy of this reporter.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 23:54:44 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 18:54:44 EST
Subject: Kolache (1896)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.185444.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999):

_kolache._  Also, "kolach" and "kolacky."  A sweet pastry bun filled with
cheese, poppyseeds, sausage, or, more commonly, jam or fruits like cherry,
apricot, peach, pineapple, or prune, first mentioned in print in Willa
Cather's novel _My Antonia_ (1919).  It is of Czechoslovaqk origins (the
Czech word is _kolace_) and, as "kolacky," entered print about 1915.
   Kolaches are most popular in West Texas, where Czech immigrants settled in
1852.

   This has been driving me crazy.  I've been entering kolache/kolacky/kolace
into the three Making of America databases, the American Periodical Series,
Accessible Archives, the North American Women's Letters and Diaries database,
the American Memory Database, the Gerritsen Collection, the New York Times,
and the Washington Post, and I still couldn't beat a late date of 1919 for MY
ANTONIA.  Embarrassing.
   However, I was just checking the "Popik Collection" here for something
else and found it in an 1896 cook book.   I'll include some other interesting
items from the cook book's index as well.  The book is on NYPL microfilm and
I'll get the full recipe by request.


THE CHICAGO RECORD COOK BOOK
Published by the Chicago Record
1896 (handwritten date--ed.)

New England boiled dinner...53
Zrazrie a la hate...374
VEAL--Parmesan cutlets...345
PORK--Scrappel...586  (Great!  Another spelling!--ed.)
CHICKEN--Kentucky fried...402
SOUPS--Russian chlodnik...374
Belle Calas...86
Biscuit--Stuffed (Bohemian Kolace)...181
Buchtels, Bohemian...433
Flannel cakes...134
Ojalda...338
Pain perdu (see French toastT)...235
Peculiars...344
Singing hinney...103
Top knots...396
Kuchen...182
Kuchen Leb'...96
Tarts, Sand...475
Apple John...71, 401
Brown Betty...451
Hopple Popple...184
Jenny Linde...133
Moonshine...216. 392
Neapolitanoes...209
Slip (see junket)...37
CANDIES--Fudges...176
Pralines...(illegible--ed.)(See new DARE--ed.)
SALAD--Waldorf...503


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Tue Dec 10 00:05:06 2002
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 16:05:06 -0800
Subject: mentor/mentee
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021209144451.20329G-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.160506.0800.>

I've heard it this year in my Leadership class at Simon Fraser University
MBA program in Vancouver BC

and, it's a little too cold for manatees up here, Peter :)

Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Peter Richardson
Sent: December 9, 2002 2:46 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: mentor/mentee


Has anyone heard _mentee_? The pattern is obvious (cf. lessor/lessee), but
I wonder about the specific form. (Personally, I like manatee.)

Thanks.

Peter R.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 10 00:17:05 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 19:17:05 -0500
Subject: Possible antedating for "you all"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212091618120.78551864-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.191705.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>#Compare Tiny Tim's "God bless you, every one", signalling not "you
>#(pl.) as opposed to (sg.)" but the fact that the set of blessees
>#extends to every member of the set of addressees, with nobody left
>#out.
>
>I'm pretty sure that that's "God bless <us>, every one."

Ooops.

>Not that the
>failure of this citation invalidates your point.
>
Exactly.  In fact, the first person makes it even clearer that the
"every one" isn't a disambiguator here, any more (I claim) than the
"all" in the early "you all" cite.

Larry


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Tue Dec 10 00:28:53 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 19:28:53 -0500
Subject: mentor/mentee
In-Reply-To: <AOEIILHHOFBBPLHOHKDFKEAIFKAA.vidamorkunas@telus.net>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.192853.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Has anyone heard _mentee_? The pattern is obvious (cf. lessor/lessee), but
>I wonder about the specific form. (Personally, I like manatee.)

I have been using <mentee> for about a year, self-consciously at first,
now less so.

Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 01:41:33 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 20:41:33 -0500
Subject: Candy Cane (1865)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.204133.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Someone asked me if I could beat 1897 for "candy cane."  From full text of HARPER'S WEEKLY, pg. 807, 23 December 1865:



Search the Full-Text of Harper's Weekly, 1857-1912
    Return to: Main Menu | New Search

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


65-12-23
Page
Section

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
. . . te it for me?" "Auntie" took her
pen and wrote verbatim at the child's dictation:
"Dear Santa Claus, -- I wish you would get me a lit-
tle dolly, turning around, if that belongs to Christmas;
and a candy cane, if that belongs to Christmas. If it
don't, I don't want it. And an apron for my doll, if
Christmas brings aprons. If it don't, I don't want any.
That is all I want.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 02:04:38 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:04:38 -0500
Subject: Two-gallon hat (1921)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.210438.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   21 November 1921, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 3:
   ...American cow punchers in two-gallon hats...

(There was one 1890 "gallon hat" hit, but I didn't see it in the text.  I might have missed it or it might have been a false hit...There were no hits for "galloon hat" in a pre-1945 check. There are many hits for "galloon," though--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 02:12:03 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:12:03 -0500
Subject: Ten-gallon hat (1920)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.211203.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database:


1. Morrison, Anna Daly. "Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, July, 1920"
[Page 62 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
midnight one Saturday night in a saloon, the truckers were boisterously discussing the topic nearest their hearts-- Diamond T's, the loads they can haul, their speed, gas consumption, etc.-- when a cow puncher with a bandanna around his neck, and wearing chaps, high boots, spurs and a ten-gallon hat, suddenly elevated himself to a standing position on the bar and in a mighty voice shouted, "Listen, all you blankety-blank Diamond T truckers, this is to advise that we're going to punch cattle here next Saturday night and to h-- with Diamond T's." After the truckers leave the hotel



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Results Bibliography
Morrison, Anna Daly, 1884-1957, Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, July, 1920, in Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, Those Were The Days. Boise, ID: Em-Kayan Press, 1951, pp. 446. [Bibliographic Details] [7-17-1920] S1105-D028 Morris:D1105-28


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Tue Dec 10 02:08:43 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:08:43 -0500
Subject: react (n)
In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994341A5@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.210843.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Which syllable did he stress?

Herb

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Gordon, Matthew J.
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 6:51 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: react (n)


On NPR's Sunday Weekend Edition yesterday, a reporter (Don Gonyea) used
'react' as a noun. The quote is: "Here's the official react from the White
House in the form of a brief, less than 100-word statement from the press
secretary, Ari Fleischer."

Has anyone heard this before? I wondered if it is a common journalistic
shorthand or just an idiosyncrasy of this reporter.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 02:22:48 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:22:48 -0500
Subject: "Windy City" is wrong on NBC's TODAY show
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.212248.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Yes, one more time, the New York Sun Charles A. Dana "Windy City" myth.  I'm trying to have the NEW YORK SUN do a daily column on this.  IT NEVER ENDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    The following is from LEXIS-NEXIS...The TODAY show had our Allan Metcalf on recently.  Granted, anything after that would be downhill, but still...



Copyright 2002 National Broadcasting Co. Inc.
NBC News Transcripts


SHOW: Today (7:00 AM ET) - NBC


November 26, 2002 Tuesday

LENGTH: 597 words

HEADLINE: Weather report

ANCHORS: KATIE COURIC; MATT LAUER

REPORTERS: AL ROKER; MIKE LEONARD

BODY:
KATIE COURIC, co-host:

Anyway, we're going to switch gears and head to Chicago and get a check of the weather from Al.

What's going on there, Al?

AL ROKER reporting:

Well, Katie, I'll tell you it's Chicago--it's actually not bad right now, about 24 degrees here, downtown Chicago. Winds aren't too bad. And we always talk about Chicago and the windy city. Well, with us is one of Chicago's favorite sons, Mr. Mike Leonard. Mike, good to see you.

MIKE LEONARD reporting:

Hello, Al. How are you?

ROKER: A lot of people don't know outside of the country that you live here?

LEONARD: About 20 miles north of Chicago. I often just come into the city in the early morning to stand around.

ROKER: So you do that?

LEONARD: Yeah.

ROKER: And it just so happened that we were here.

LEONARD: Get out of my bed early--you were.

ROKER: It kind of worked out pretty well. And the interesting thing is we talk about Chicago being the Windy City, but it's not that windy?

LEONARD: No, actually, really it's not that windy. I mean, it's not even in, like, the top 10. I think it's, like, 21st. The reason it's the Windy City is back in the late 1800s they were doing something, they were trying to get a world's fair here.

ROKER: Mm-hmm.

LEONARD: And a New York columnist was tired of Chicago politicians talking about it and said that, 'Oh, I'm tired of all that windy stuff coming from Chicago,' meaning...

ROKER: Right.

LEONARD: ...talk.

ROKER: Now, I mean, downtown Chicago is very, very unique. I mean, in that you've got layers, you got levels. I mean, like, I know they're about to open--re-open lower Whacker Drive, which is a great name. And they're going to restage a--a Blues Brothers car chase down here.

LEONARD: Yeah.

ROKER: They're all very excited about that. This is--this is--really is a unique town with a--with a river running through the middle of it.

LEONARD: That runs backwards, too.

ROKER: Yeah.

LEONARD: Did you know that?

ROKER: I did not know that.

LEONARD: The river goes backwards. I think, it's the only one in the US. They--they--goes--goes the other way for some sanitary reasons. But it's a cool city because it's easy to get around...

ROKER: Uh-huh.

LEONARD: ...it's clean, it's friendly. It's a city of neighborhoods and, you know, it's been very, very comfortable for all of us to live here.

ROKER: In your--your estimation, what's the one thing that we around the rest of the country don't know about Chicago?

LEONARD: People think it's colder than it is.

ROKER: Mm-hmm.

LEONARD: And--and the windy thing, like that.

ROKER: Right.

LEONARD: But I think it's friendliness.

ROKER: Yeah.

LEONARD: People are very, very friendly, yeah.

ROKER: They are very friendly.

You are a friendly people.

(Crowd cheers)

ROKER: They're a friendly people. And we're having a wonderful time.

Mike Leonard, thank you very much.

LEONARD: Thanks, Al. Nice seeing you again.

ROKER: And nice hat thing.

LEONARD: Thank you.

ROKER: That was very nice. All right.

LEONARD: Intellectual, right?

ROKER: That's what's going on around the country, here's what's happening in your neck of the woods.

(Weather follows)

ROKER: And we want to thank our friends from WMAQ. Their local weather guy, Ed Kearn, is doing the weather right now on WMAQ. We're doing it at the same time.

Now let's go back to you, Matt.

MATT LAUER, co-host:

All right, Al. Thank you very much.

Coming up next, George Clooney. He's not so cute. Right after these messages.

COURIC: I don't know, Matt.

LOAD-DATE: November 27, 2002


From cheerchick94 at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 10 02:50:35 2002
From: cheerchick94 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lakita Hampton)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:50:35 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.215035.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I find that very interesting.







>From: "A. Maberry" <maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:10:14 -0800
>
>I think of the following description of Oregonians as mostly applying to
>the Puget Sound region, the home of Nirvana and Kurt Cobain, the flannel-
>shirts grunge-look, skateboards, etc. For me, Gen(eration)-X is more of a
>historical marker for the generation born between 1961 and 1981 that isn't
>really typical of any one area. I never though to the grunge movement or
>Gen-X members, especially those from Washington or Oregon to have much
>connection with surfers or surfer speech (consciously or otherwise).
>
>allen
>maberry at u.washington.edu
>
>
>On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:
>
> > Oregonians -- to the extent that Michiganders knew of their existence --
> > were thought to be obsessive skateboarding (some drug-using) Curt Cobain
> > fans (or however he spelled it), who dressed in at least half-rags, and
> > tried to sound like surfers, when they spoke in multiple syllables at
>all.
> > As I say, young Gen-X subculture types.  This was the stereotype I heard
>the
> > most at the time.  Then again, the classmates I spoke of were in
>Education
> > (sorry, I think I said English), and Michiganders tended to be quite
> > snobbish when it came to having a corner on the "correctness" market.
>As
> > dEnIs has pointed out before.  I find it very odd that a people who
> > pronounce "milk" as [mElk], Wisconsin as [wEsconsIn], and have to say
>"ink
> > pen" for "pen", because they say [pIn] for "pen", claim to be the seat
>of
> > SAE.  Drove me nuts at the time, although I have since then decided it
>is
> > just "cute" and amusing.  :-)
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Fritz Juengling" <Friolly at AOL.COM>
> > To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 7:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
> >
> >
> > > Out of curiosity, how were Oregonians stereotyped?  I didn't know
>anyone
> > back
> > > East ever even thought of Oregon.
> > > Fritz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Those vowel shifts seemed to be related to East Coast
> > > > city shifts, or West Coast bumpkin shifts (in the class's estimation
>at
> > the
> > > > time, that included "ValleySpeak", surfers, counter-culture Gen X
> > > > skateboarders, and other such stereotyped sub-groupings of
>Californians
> > and
> > > > Oregonians.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >


_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Tue Dec 10 02:51:43 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 20:51:43 -0600
Subject: react (n)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.205143.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Stress was on the second syllable.
You can listen for yourself at: http://www.npr.org/programs/wesun/transcripts/2002/dec/021208.gonyea.html

-----Original Message-----
From:   Herbert Stahlke [mailto:hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET]
Sent:   Mon 12/9/2002 8:08 PM
To:     ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Cc:	
Subject:             Re: react (n)

Which syllable did he stress?

Herb

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Gordon, Matthew J.
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 6:51 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: react (n)


On NPR's Sunday Weekend Edition yesterday, a reporter (Don Gonyea) used
'react' as a noun. The quote is: "Here's the official react from the White
House in the form of a brief, less than 100-word statement from the press
secretary, Ari Fleischer."

Has anyone heard this before? I wondered if it is a common journalistic
shorthand or just an idiosyncrasy of this reporter.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 03:36:02 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 22:36:02 -0500
Subject: Nam-pla (1963)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.223602.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I just got started.  There are plenty of other books here.  OED, as we've been told, has 1969...Do I get a Thai dinner for this?  Maybe a chat with Al Roker on the TODAY show?


THAILAND:
A POLITICAL, SOCIAL, AND ECONOMIC ANALYSIS
by D. Insor
New York: Frederick A. Praeger
1963

Pg. 36:
      FOOD
The word for "rice" and "food" in Thai is almost synonymous; _hew khao_, to be hungry, means literally to be hungry for rice.

Pg. 37:  _Nam-pla_, fish sauce, adds strength and flavour to a meagre diet.


HISTORICAL AND CULTURAL DICTIONARY OF THAILAND
by Harold E. Smith
Historical and Cultural Dictionaries of Asia, No. 6
Metuchen, NJ: The Scarecrow Press, Inc.
1976

Pg. 131:
PLA TU.  The "little mackerel," a local term for the most important marine fish caught in the coastal waters of the Gulf of Thailand and along the shore of the Indian Ocean between Burma and Malaysia.  See PRA MONG.

Pg. 134:
PRA MONG. The name for fishing, to which the bulk of the Thai population, outside of the cities, devotes a part of its time.  Most meals, in fact, consist principally of rice eaten with fish. (...)  Fish sauce (nampla) is an important ingredient in the preparation of Thai food.


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Dec 10 03:41:44 2002
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:41:44 -0600
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <020e01c29fb8$402105a0$b6b89b3f@db>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.214144.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have not yet seen mention of tarmac. I don't know where I first
heard it. I lived 9 years near Cleveland, 9 north of Boston, 4 near
Phila, 2 in Milwaukee, 1 in South Dakota and 18 (augh!)* in Chicago.
I would guess Cleveland or Boston.

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics

*I just don't need the reminder of how long I have been at this. B

>My first father-in-law (b. Bavaria, 1899) used "colprovia" (which I had
>always assumed was Germanic Kohlprovia--but a google search reveals it's a
>kind of asphalt).  The term "blacktop" differentiates by color in comparison
>with "white" concrete.
>_________________________________
>"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
>--Albert Einstein


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Tue Dec 10 04:19:12 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:19:12 -0700
Subject: Snuzzle -- familiar?
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.211912.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I forgot to ask earlier if others are familiar with "snuzzle" in its
snuggly meaning. Apparently the original Scots meaning is "to root or
grub" -- decidedly less cuddly.

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 05:16:23 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 00:16:23 -0500
Subject: Nam pla (1955)
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.001623.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

VILLAGE LIFE IN MODERN THAILAND
by John E. deYoung
Institute of Asiatic Studies, Univ. of California
Bekeley: University of California Press
1955
Fourth printing, 1966

Pg. 101:
   In the Chao Phya river system of the Menam Plain the annual upstream migration of a tiny fish of the cyprinid species, known to the peasants as _pla soi_, is caught by the millions in scoop and dip nets.  When the _pla soi_ are running, every household along the waterways spends most of its time netting the tiny fish.  Much of the yearly catch of _pla soi_ is fermented into the familiar _nam pla_ paste, a basic ingredient in curry in the central plains.

(If Jesse doesn't have a favorite Thai restaurant, I can pick one--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Dec 10 07:30:52 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:30:52 -0500
Subject: Nam pla (1955)
In-Reply-To: <11CCE5FB.357F4B00.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.023052.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A few remarks about these Thai words, according to my naive notions.

The adjective or attributive follows the modified noun, the reverse of the
usual order in English.

"Nam" = "water", also "juice", "liquid", etc. "Pla" = "fish". Thus "nam
pla" = literally "fish juice/sauce". I believe "nam pla" in Thai now refers
to a variety of salty sauces, some of which may not actually be from fish.
[Cf. English "ketchup" which also etymologically once meant more or less
"fish sauce".]

Generally a type of fish X in Thai is named "pla X" = "X fish", so "pla
soi" is the "soi" fish (I don't know whether this word "soi" is simply the
fish's name or whether it also has some other meaning: e.g., cf. "daeng" =
"red", "pla daeng" = "red snapper"). Google search identifies pla soi =
Jullien's mud carp.

If you like *hot* pepper, you can ask for prik ki nu: "prik" =
"pepper"/"chili", "ki" = "shit", "nu" = "mouse", thus "mouse shit pepper",
a little pepper which resembles a mouse dropping. An appetizing
appellation? Conventional in Thai, apparently. Caution is advised in
ordering these; your Thai chef may have a mordant sense of humor.

It is my impression that neither "nam pla" nor "prik ki nu" qualifies as an
English word. Thai persons of my acquaintance virtually always have
referred to nam pla as "fish sauce" when speaking English. The little
mouse-dropping peppers are conventionally called "birdseye" peppers/chilis
in English, I believe. "Pad Thai" OTOH refers to a specific and nowadays
conventional dish in the US (AFAIK), and I believe this is just as English
a word as "sukiyaki" or "gyros" for example. Of course I concede that these
things are not black-and-white.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 08:25:29 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 03:25:29 EST
Subject: Nam pla (1955)
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.032529.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   About three blocks from the NYU Bobst Library, on West 3rd Street near 6th
Avenue, is Thai Village.  It's been there since 1985--forever in NYC
restaurant circles.    Just a few steps away from that is Sammy's Asian.
These words are right in the neighborhood (of English speakers).
   There's no excuse for "Pad Thai" not being in dictionaries.  I don't
recommend including all Thai dishes, but certainly some are justified.
   TIME OUT NEW YORK'S EATING AND DRINKING GUIDE 2003 has a category just for
"Thai."  45 restaurants are listed--and both Thai Village and Sammy's aren't
even in the book.
   THE OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD lists "nam pla" under an entry for "nam
prik."
   WEBSTER'S NEW WORLD DICTIONARY OF CULINARY ARTS, Second Edition (2001)
goes the whole "nam" yards on page 311:

_nam pla_ (num PLAH)  A salty condiment made from fermented fish and used in
Southeast Asian cuisines.
_nam pla raa_ (num plaa raa)  An aromatic Thai sauce made by boiling
fermented fish with crushed lemongrass and kaffir lime leaves.
_nam prik_ (num preek)  A spicy Thai sauce made by pounding together salted
fish, garlic, chiles, nam pla, fresh lime juice, light soy sauce and palm
sugar.
_nam prik num_ (num preek noom)  A thick green vegetable curry from northern
Thailand, usually eaten with sticky rice.
_nam prik pao_ (num phreek pha-o)  A very spicy Thai sauce made from dried
roasted red chiles and traditionally served with rice, vegetables and salads;
also known as roasted chili paste and roasted curry paste.
_nam tan_ (num-tun)  Thai for sugar.


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Tue Dec 10 10:03:47 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:03:47 -0000
Subject: Australian cuisine
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.100347.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One for Barry.

'Calf's Pudding':

1902 Bulletin (Sydney) 12 Jul 16/2: The cow-cocky [ie small outback dairy
farmer] is the most awful and wonderful of the genus - especially the young
rooster. [...] Used to cows all his wretched lifetime, he actually becomes
cow-like [...]. 'Cockies' delight,' [ie treacle] by the way, isnt his only
culinary luxury. Let 'C.J.D.' [a correspondent] taste 'calf-pudding' and
he'll remember it for ever afterwards. A calf's paunch, stuffed with scrub
magpie, water-rat, hog's lard, eel, pig's liver, carrots, turnips, pop-corn,
goose eggs, pumpkin jam, rock salt, _and_ 'Paddy's lucerne,' and boiled for
four days.

Jonathon Green


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Dec 10 11:40:23 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:40:23 -0500
Subject: Nam pla (1955)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021210013236.04a46ec0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.064023.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2002 at 02:30:52AM -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
> It is my impression that neither "nam pla" nor "prik ki nu" qualifies as an
> English word. Thai persons of my acquaintance virtually always have
> referred to nam pla as "fish sauce" when speaking English. The little
> mouse-dropping peppers are conventionally called "birdseye" peppers/chilis
> in English, I believe. "Pad Thai" OTOH refers to a specific and nowadays
> conventional dish in the US (AFAIK), and I believe this is just as English
> a word as "sukiyaki" or "gyros" for example. Of course I concede that these
> things are not black-and-white.

I certainly don't think that all of Barry's voluminous citations for
foreign food terms qualify as English words, but I absolutely think that
_nam pla_ is used in English contexts without any explanation in a way
that suggests it has become naturalized. I see it all the time, not just
in narrow Thai-cookery use. I'd probably agree that _prik ki nu_ isn't
quite ready for prime time, but _nam pla_ does.

Barry, let me know if you beat or check the first edition of the 1955
book, or I'll have to get someone to do it.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Dec 10 13:00:32 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:00:32 -0500
Subject: "Mispronouncing" names
In-Reply-To: <012b01c29fbd$15b64fa0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.080032.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Millie,

A little cross-dialectal hypercorrection (which makes it something
else of course) among friends is OK.

dInIs



Sorry, [dInIs], I mistyped your name in my own pronunciation in stead
of yours.  There we go again on "mispronouncing" names.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Millie Webb" <millie-webb at CHARTER.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


  Then again, the classmates I spoke of were in Education
>  (sorry, I think I said English), and Michiganders tended to be quite
>  snobbish when it came to having a corner on the "correctness" market.  As
>  dEnIs has pointed out before.

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Dec 10 13:15:49 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:15:49 -0500
Subject: react (n)
In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994341A5@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.081549.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Where was the stress? REact or reACT? I'd take (small) bets on the former.

dInIs


On NPR's Sunday Weekend Edition yesterday, a reporter (Don Gonyea)
used 'react' as a noun. The quote is: "Here's the official react from
the White House in the form of a brief, less than 100-word statement
from the press secretary, Ari Fleischer."

Has anyone heard this before? I wondered if it is a common
journalistic shorthand or just an idiosyncrasy of this reporter.

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Dec 10 13:27:29 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:27:29 -0500
Subject: Nam pla (1955)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021210013236.04a46ec0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.082729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Seeing Thai "prik" reminds me after many years of forgetting of Mary
Haas' wonderful old article about accidental obscenities (and how to
avoid them). If I remember correctly, a group of Thai students in the
US became self-conscious when talking about one of their common food
ingredients ("prik" = pepper, chili) because of English-speaking
overhearers (who doubtless heard "prick"). On learning the English
meaning of this unfortunate bilingual homophony, they substituted
"lingam" for "prik" when they were in earshot of English speakers.

dInIs




A few remarks about these Thai words, according to my naive notions.

The adjective or attributive follows the modified noun, the reverse of the
usual order in English.

"Nam" = "water", also "juice", "liquid", etc. "Pla" = "fish". Thus "nam
pla" = literally "fish juice/sauce". I believe "nam pla" in Thai now refers
to a variety of salty sauces, some of which may not actually be from fish.
[Cf. English "ketchup" which also etymologically once meant more or less
"fish sauce".]

Generally a type of fish X in Thai is named "pla X" = "X fish", so "pla
soi" is the "soi" fish (I don't know whether this word "soi" is simply the
fish's name or whether it also has some other meaning: e.g., cf. "daeng" =
"red", "pla daeng" = "red snapper"). Google search identifies pla soi =
Jullien's mud carp.

If you like *hot* pepper, you can ask for prik ki nu: "prik" =
"pepper"/"chili", "ki" = "shit", "nu" = "mouse", thus "mouse shit pepper",
a little pepper which resembles a mouse dropping. An appetizing
appellation? Conventional in Thai, apparently. Caution is advised in
ordering these; your Thai chef may have a mordant sense of humor.

It is my impression that neither "nam pla" nor "prik ki nu" qualifies as an
English word. Thai persons of my acquaintance virtually always have
referred to nam pla as "fish sauce" when speaking English. The little
mouse-dropping peppers are conventionally called "birdseye" peppers/chilis
in English, I believe. "Pad Thai" OTOH refers to a specific and nowadays
conventional dish in the US (AFAIK), and I believe this is just as English
a word as "sukiyaki" or "gyros" for example. Of course I concede that these
things are not black-and-white.

-- Doug Wilson

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Dec 10 13:30:06 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:30:06 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.083006.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Tarmac" for me is restricted to airports--never heard it in other contexts.
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Dec 10 13:43:40 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:43:40 -0500
Subject: Presidential scholars
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.084340.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Colleagues,

I about to go to my thinking-place and decide on the recipients of
this year's Presidential Honorary Membership Awards (as described in
the most recent NADS).

To refresh your memory -

Every year the President of ADS selects an elite group of students
(usually three) who have made outstanding contributions to our field.
In addition to the honor of being selected, each gets

1) Four free membership years, and

2) Free luncheon (and personal recognition) at the annual meeting,
this year in Atlanta of course, but with the option of putting off
this part of the award until a later date if the recipient cannot
attend (although that is almost unthinkable to me since I will give
this year's luncheon address), and

3) (almost always) a photograph for the recipient's treasured
memories book of her or himself with the ADS President and other
honorees.

I remind all members that I must be given a description of the
nominee's qualifications as soon as possible, even if we have
previously discussed your nominee in a hallway, bistro,
watering-hole, or even an electronic medium. Please do not depend on
my memory; now is the time to pick up your keyboard and nominate (or
re-nominate, as the case may be).

Best,

dInIs


--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 13:46:41 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:46:41 EST
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.084641.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/9/02 10:39:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes:

> I have not yet seen mention of tarmac.

MWCD10 page 1206 column 2, says that "Tarmac" is a trademark, then gives a
generic "tarmac" dated as 1919 "a tarmacadam road, apron, or runway".

"tarmacadam" is dated 1882 and "macadam" as 1824.

For some reason "tarmac" always sounds British to me---perhaps I encountered
it reading about bombers taking off from Britain during World War II.
However I just checked with a pilot here and he says "tarmac", meaning "the
area where the planes are parked" is widely used among aviation people in the
US, so it seems I am wrong.

A few words about "macadam" (does that make me a macadam nut?):

In a message dated 12/6/02 9:08:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, AAllan at AOL.COM
writes:

> DARE has an extensive entry for "macadam," complete with map: it's chiefly
>  Northeast, MidAtlantic, and North Central (esp. Ohio) for this definition:
>  "originally a road pavement made of layers of packed crushed rock,
sometimes
>  strengthened by applying a bituminous binder; now usually blacktop or a
>  similar paving material."

This provides a useful example for the current thread, which is "when does
the word change or not change when the referent changes?" slash "why does the
word change when the referent does not change?"

I pointed out that the word (sometimes) changes when there is an obvious
change to the referent (e.g. there is an obvious difference between an icebox
and a refrigerator, namely the presence or absence of the iceman) and
(sometimes) does not change when the change to the referent is not obvious to
the general public (e.g. eyeglasses no longer always made of glass, steam
rollers and steam shovels no longer powered by steam).

If we are talking about words used in general speech (e.g. "glasses", "steam
roller") then I think it safe to say that what counts is whether the general
public realizes that there is a significant change to the referent.  In the
case of iceboxes, yes, the change was obvious.  In the case of glasses and
brooms, it was not.

So we have the word "macadam" and its referent, which manages to split the
difference.  To some members of teh general public, the difference between
macadam and asphalt is obvious.  To others, the difference is not---they
distinguish between unpaved and paved, the latter being either macadam or
asphalt, who cares?.  (I am ignoring the existence of concrete roads as not
relevant to this particular discussion.)

So we have an example of an incomplete changeover in the word due to an
incomplete popular realization of a change to the referent.

It is interesting that DARE finds this to be a regional term: "chiefly
Northeast, MidAtlantic, and North Central (esp. Ohio)"
1) Were the old-style macadam roads (i.e. those made of crushed rock) more
common in the Northeast-MidAtlantic-North Central area than elsewhere
(possible), in which case the dialect preference is explained simply by the
relative ubiquitousness of the referent?
2) Or for some reason was the term "macadam" more widely used in this region
for a type of crushed-rock pavement widely found in the USA?
3) Or was the Northeast-MidAtlantic-North Central area more conservative in
holding onto the term "macadam" after the switchover to asphalt roads?
(Which could be a result of there already being more macadam roads in that
area---in the rest of the country, paved roads were more of a novelty and
hence the terms "blacktop" or "asphalt" were more readily adopted since the
term "macadam" was not widely used due to a lack of referents)

      - Jim Landau (trying to pave the way for the resumption of this thread)


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Tue Dec 10 14:07:05 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:07:05 -0500
Subject: Kolache (1896)
In-Reply-To: <7a.32b02184.2b268744@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.090705.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 06:54 PM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Kolaches are most popular in West Texas, where Czech immigrants settled in
>1852.


Mandatory on road trips - or sometime the excuse for one - was a stop for
kolaches at "The Little Czech Bakery"  (or any of the several bakeries that
bank a stretch of I-35) in West, Texas - the actual name of the town. Not
west Texas - out by Midland-Odessa.  I wonder which one the citation is
referring to?

Something else that might be of interest to Mr. Popik. That same bakery not
only has kolaches, but sausage stuffed dough thingys they call "Little
Chubbies" - not widespread American food - but damn popular in Central
Texas. Get the "Spicy Chubbies" with or without cheese.

One more thing of interest to Mr. Popik - watch for Safire's Dec. 15th
column. Merry Christmas.


Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Dec 10 14:56:52 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:56:52 -0800
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <020e01c29fb8$402105a0$b6b89b3f@db>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.065652.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Then there's the term "asphalt concrete", which is
used in many bid specifications for asphalt.  It
confused me the first time I saw it, wondering if it
was offering an option between concrete or asphalt at
the bidders discretion.

To me, "tarmac" is always associated with airfields.

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 10 15:13:54 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:13:54 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <005d01c2a050$41abc840$a2b89b3f@db>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.101354.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, David Bergdahl wrote:

#"Tarmac" for me is restricted to airports--never heard it in other contexts.

Same here.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 10 15:24:54 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:24:54 -0500
Subject: Nam pla, prik ki nu
In-Reply-To: <20021210114023.GB15716@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.102454.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:40 AM -0500 12/10/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Tue, Dec 10, 2002 at 02:30:52AM -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>
>>  It is my impression that neither "nam pla" nor "prik ki nu" qualifies as an
>>  English word. Thai persons of my acquaintance virtually always have
>>  referred to nam pla as "fish sauce" when speaking English. The little
>>  mouse-dropping peppers are conventionally called "birdseye" peppers/chilis
>>  in English, I believe. "Pad Thai" OTOH refers to a specific and nowadays
>>  conventional dish in the US (AFAIK), and I believe this is just as English
>>  a word as "sukiyaki" or "gyros" for example. Of course I concede that these
>>  things are not black-and-white.
>
>I certainly don't think that all of Barry's voluminous citations for
>foreign food terms qualify as English words, but I absolutely think that
>_nam pla_ is used in English contexts without any explanation in a way
>that suggests it has become naturalized. I see it all the time, not just
>in narrow Thai-cookery use. I'd probably agree that _prik ki nu_ isn't
>quite ready for prime time, but _nam pla_ does.
>
Agreed, but the former does occupy a nice place in the annals of
linguistics.  Mary Haas wrote a classic article in the 1950's, later
anthologized in Dell Hymes's 1964 reader _Language in Culture and
Society_, on cross-linguistic taboo avoidance, in which she observed
that Thai students in the U.S., not wanting to be overheard
requesting _prik_ in its various forms, substituted "lingam", the
Sanskrit word (familiar to those of you who have memorized the Kama
Sutra) for the male member.

larry


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Dec 10 15:40:17 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:40:17 -0500
Subject: Kolache (1896)
In-Reply-To: <7a.32b02184.2b268744@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.104017.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

kolac (length mark over a, hacek over c) is the singular in Czech; kolace
(ditto) would be the plural.

However, like practically every word in Czech, it is also commonly
known in the diminutive, kolacky (plural, I am assuming of the
diminuitive kolacek, which I've never actually heard of). (Again, length
marks over the a's and hacky over the c's.)

Even though I didn't learn Czech at home, this is one item (along with
some other food terms, swears, and the phrase "come here") that is
completely native for me. My grandmother makes excellent ones; and in my
Michigan hometown, until very recently, there was a sausage dance each
year, where they made sausages (jitrnice) and kolacky and ate and danced.
Almost all of the foreign-born Czechs are dead there, now, and very few
first-generation (my grandma's 85) ones are left. I got to witness an
immense amount of the cultural aspect of this when I was a kid though.

The 'ch' spelling (which I've never seen -- then again I would have only
seen it written out in Czech) is the anglicization of the c-hacek.

They're very delicious.

-- Steve


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 15:48:18 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:48:18 EST
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.104818.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/10/02 9:57:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM writes:

> Then there's the term "asphalt concrete", which is
>  used in many bid specifications for asphalt.  It
>  confused me the first time I saw it, wondering if it
>  was offering an option between concrete or asphalt at
>  the bidders discretion.

It's a technical term among civil engineers.  "Asphalt concrete" is blacktop.
 The stuff that is poured out of concrete mixers is "cement concrete".  The
base term "concrete" here is in a sense which the MWCD10 dates as 1656: "a
mass formed by concretion or coalescence of separate particles of matter in
one body."

The layman's meaning of "concrete" is MWCD10 sense 2 "a hard strong building
material made by mixing a cementing material (as Portland cement) and a
mineral aggregate (as sand and gravel) with sufficient water to cause the
cement to set and bind the entire mass".  The referent, though not the word,
goes back to Roman times---the Romans made a concrete using pozzolana instead
of Portland cement, which was not invented until 1824.

By the way, "aggregate" is also a technical term in civil
engineering---MWCD10 sense 2b "any of several hard inert materials (as sand,
grael, or slag) used for mixing with a cementing material to form concrete,
mortar, or plaster".  Note that this definition uses the layman's rather than
the civil engineer's definition of "concrete".

Martin Marietta Aerospace (now Lockheed-Martin) owned (and maybe still owns)
of all things an "Aggregate Division" which sold sand and/or gravel.  A few
years ago, when Martin Marietta's contract here at the Tech Center was about
to expire, the running joke was "Don't worry.  Martin will give you a job in
the Aggregate Division."  (Happy ending, too---the ex-Martin people got jobs
with 8a contractors).

        - James A. Landau
          systems engineer
          FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI)
          Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA

P.S.  I too have heard "tarnac" used only in reference to airports.


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 16:18:49 2002
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:18:49 EST
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.111849.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've been following this thread intermittently, forgive me if it's been
mentioned, but I used to be puzzled in Upstate NY by signs the highway dept.
would put up  "Road recently oiled"  which meant they'd put a new layer of
what we called "tar" down as far as I could tell.  Not sure what the "oil"
referred to.

The blacktop for us was a basketball court or other play area with blacktop
on it.

Dale Coye
Princeton, NJ.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 10 16:26:59 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:26:59 -0500
Subject: Searching Old English Cases
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.112659.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I now have access to an Internet resource allowing searching of the entire
body of pre-1865 English case law.  If anyone has any words, phrases,
proverbs, or quotations that he or she thinks can fruitfully be searched
in such a database, please let me know so I can try them.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Tue Dec 10 16:36:35 2002
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:36:35 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.113635.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In northern Delaware, used oil, often used motor oil, was sprayed onto
dirt roads to lessen the amount of dust that would be raised by
traffic.  Such work was usually done during the days of Summer.

George Cole
Shippensburg University


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Tue Dec 10 16:38:53 2002
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:38:53 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.113853.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Delmar, Delaware, in the early 1960s, some people referred to the
roads that were not topped with blacktop as being 'light roads'.  Those
roads were nothing but sand, and the sand was usually light in 'color'.

George Cole
Shippensburg University


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Dec 10 16:44:40 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:44:40 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <15b.18b39457.2b276de9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.114440.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I've been following this thread intermittently, forgive me if it's been
>mentioned, but I used to be puzzled in Upstate NY by signs the highway dept.
>would put up  "Road recently oiled"  which meant they'd put a new layer of
>what we called "tar" down as far as I could tell.  Not sure what the "oil"
>referred to.
>
>The blacktop for us was a basketball court or other play area with blacktop
>on it.
>
>Dale Coye
>Princeton, NJ.
~~~~~~~~
It may be a practice now abandoned for environmental considerations, but I
believe the "recently oiled"  warnings  did actually refer to oil being
spread on dust&gravel roads to keep the dust down in dry weather.  Our town
had quite a few miles of unpaved roads    in the 70s & 80s  which would be
oiled for a stretch  near the occasional house, as a favor to the residents.
A. Murie


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Dec 10 16:41:41 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:41:41 -0800
Subject: "Windy City" and Whacker Drive
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021210081536.8055A-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.084141.0800.PRICHARD@LINFIELD.EDU>

Nice to know about all those friendly people in Chicago. But is the
mistake in the spelling/pronunciation of Wacker Drive...

(from Barry:)
I mean, downtown Chicago is very, very unique. I mean, in that
you've got layers, you got levels. I mean, like, I know they're about to
open--re-open lower Whacker Drive, which is a great name.

...likely to be a hypercorrection because of our old friend wh-/w-? Or has
the street been renamed to reflect a sudden increase in urban assaults?

Peter R.


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Dec 10 17:19:57 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:19:57 -0500
Subject: Candy Cane (1865)
In-Reply-To: <3FA7BFD2.1F99358B.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.121957.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Would that children asked for so little these days. . . .

At 08:41 PM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>    Someone asked me if I could beat 1897 for "candy cane."  From full
> text of HARPER'S WEEKLY, pg. 807, 23 December 1865:
>
>
>
>Search the Full-Text of Harper's Weekly, 1857-1912
>     Return to: Main Menu | New Search
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>65-12-23
>Page
>Section
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>.. . . te it for me?" "Auntie" took her
>pen and wrote verbatim at the child's dictation:
>"Dear Santa Claus, -- I wish you would get me a lit-
>tle dolly, turning around, if that belongs to Christmas;
>and a candy cane, if that belongs to Christmas. If it
>don't, I don't want it. And an apron for my doll, if
>Christmas brings aprons. If it don't, I don't want any.
>That is all I want.


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Dec 10 17:52:47 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:52:47 -0500
Subject: Presidential scholars
In-Reply-To: <a05010409ba1b9cae5133@[35.12.24.188]>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.125247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis, must the nominee be a student now, or could a recent M.A., say,
qualify?

At 08:43 AM 12/10/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Colleagues,
>
>I about to go to my thinking-place and decide on the recipients of
>this year's Presidential Honorary Membership Awards (as described in
>the most recent NADS).
>
>To refresh your memory -
>
>Every year the President of ADS selects an elite group of students
>(usually three) who have made outstanding contributions to our field.
>In addition to the honor of being selected, each gets
>
>1) Four free membership years, and
>
>2) Free luncheon (and personal recognition) at the annual meeting,
>this year in Atlanta of course, but with the option of putting off
>this part of the award until a later date if the recipient cannot
>attend (although that is almost unthinkable to me since I will give
>this year's luncheon address), and
>
>3) (almost always) a photograph for the recipient's treasured
>memories book of her or himself with the ADS President and other
>honorees.
>
>I remind all members that I must be given a description of the
>nominee's qualifications as soon as possible, even if we have
>previously discussed your nominee in a hallway, bistro,
>watering-hole, or even an electronic medium. Please do not depend on
>my memory; now is the time to pick up your keyboard and nominate (or
>re-nominate, as the case may be).
>
>Best,
>
>dInIs
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>740 Wells Hall A
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>Office - (517) 353-0740
>Fax - (517) 432-2736


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Dec 10 18:22:54 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:22:54 -0500
Subject: roads recently oiled
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.132254.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On unpaved country roads initially the dirt floor is leveled, pot holes
filled with gravel, and then crushed rock or gravel is spread over the road;
if there's enough warrent to do so a steam roller presses the rock or gravel
into the dirt floor, or the weight of traffic is used to compress the road.
Then as a final step, and occasionally when dust is a problem, a layer of
oil--often discarded engine oil from oil changes--is applied; often, if the
traffic requires it, macadam is applied over this "old road" to bring it up
to a more civilized standard.

If you happen to drive on a pebble-and-oil road, the purchase of kerosene
(aka "coal oil") and a lot of rubbing is needed to remove the gelatinous
mess on your tires and fenders.
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Tue Dec 10 18:44:59 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:44:59 -0600
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.124459.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

According to a friend of mine in the insurance industry (albeit six years
ago), asphalt/blacktop/tar is made from essentially "crude oil" (what is
that term I am looking for...?), making it incredibly difficult to remove
all traces of a "gas spill" on an asphalt parking lot, for example in a
gasoline station lot.  You pull up the blacktop to remove the top layer of
dirt "in case" the gas leaked through, but then the top layers of dirt will
always test positive for traces of "gasoline" because of the makeup of the
asphalt/blacktop.  In essence, whether the gas spill actually leaked through
the parking lot or not, you end up tearing up the parking lot asphalt, and
several layers deep of the dirt underneath, trying to remove all traces of
"oil by-products" in soil that has been covered with asphalt for (possibly)
years.  Surprise, surprise, when you check areas adjoining the portion of
the lot on which gas was spilled, you also find oil by-products there, and
have to tear that up to, to remove the "contamination".  It can get
ridiculous pretty quickly.

Anyway, my point was, even if it is "blacktop", I suppose one could
technically say it was "recently oiled" when they really mean they put
another thin layer of blacktop over it.  That is the practice I understood
Dale to be referring to, not the grading and then wetting down of dirt roads
(whether with oil or water).
-- Millie
----- Original Message -----
From: "sagehen" <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: blacktop/macadam


> >I've been following this thread intermittently, forgive me if it's been
> >mentioned, but I used to be puzzled in Upstate NY by signs the highway
dept.
> >would put up  "Road recently oiled"  which meant they'd put a new layer
of
> >what we called "tar" down as far as I could tell.  Not sure what the
"oil"
> >referred to.
> >
> >The blacktop for us was a basketball court or other play area with
blacktop
> >on it.
> >
> >Dale Coye
> >Princeton, NJ.
> ~~~~~~~~
> It may be a practice now abandoned for environmental considerations, but I
> believe the "recently oiled"  warnings  did actually refer to oil being
> spread on dust&gravel roads to keep the dust down in dry weather.  Our
town
> had quite a few miles of unpaved roads    in the 70s & 80s  which would be
> oiled for a stretch  near the occasional house, as a favor to the
residents.
> A. Murie
>


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Tue Dec 10 18:48:49 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:48:49 -0600
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.124849.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As I said, this was the vague impression of Mid-Landers, who had probably
never even been "out there".  And a lot of Washingtonians and Oregonians for
a while there, seemed to be transplants from California, and thus, the
perceived spread of the "surfer-like" speech.

----- Original Message -----
From: "FRITZ JUENGLING" <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


> Wow! Amazing how distorted things can be! I think Curt and his band,
Nirvana, were from Seattle, the alleged home of grunge, which is what I
think you are describing. As far as sounding like surfers--I don't think so.
I can't imagine anyone trying to sound like a surfer here. That's just a
different culture.  (Also, the water's too cold to be into surfing, unless
you have a thick wet suit).  I guess we Oregonians are just 'out there'
(i.e. West) and are largely unknown.  That's just fine.
> Fritz
>
>


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Dec 10 18:58:22 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:58:22 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <3DF61813.840BE057@ark.ship.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.135822.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, GSCole wrote:

> In northern Delaware, used oil, often used motor oil, was sprayed onto
> dirt roads to lessen the amount of dust that would be raised by
> traffic.  Such work was usually done during the days of Summer.

Isn't it such oil that was indadvertently mixed with dioxin that was
sprayed on the streets of the doomed Times Beach, Missouri?

-- Steve


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 19:19:23 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:19:23 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Kolache=20(1896)?=
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.141923.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/10/02 10:40:59 AM, stevekl at PANIX.COM writes:


> kolac (length mark over a, hacek over c) is the singular in Czech; kolace
> (ditto) would be the plural.
>
> However, like practically every word in Czech, it is also commonly
> known in the diminutive, kolacky (plural, I am assuming of the
> diminuitive kolacek, which I've never actually heard of). (Again, length
> marks over the a's and hacky over the c's.)
>
> Even though I didn't learn Czech at home, this is one item (along with
> some other food terms, swears, and the phrase "come here") that is
> completely native for me. My grandmother makes excellent ones; and in my
> Michigan hometown, until very recently, there was a sausage dance each
> year, where they made sausages (jitrnice) and kolacky and ate and danced.
> Almost all of the foreign-born Czechs are dead there, now, and very few
> first-generation (my grandma's 85) ones are left. I got to witness an
> immense amount of the cultural aspect of this when I was a kid though.
>
> The 'ch' spelling (which I've never seen -- then again I would have only
> seen it written out in Czech) is the anglicization of the c-hacek.
>
> They're very delicious.
>
> -- Steve
>

Like Steve, I spent part of my childhood in a Czech neighborhood (though my
ancestors were not Czech). This particular pastry was very popular, though
people of my generation never said /kolaki/ nor /kolace/: the vernacular
singular was always /kolac/ and the plural was /kolaciz/--the /i/ was usually
tense/long, like the /i/ of "gasoline" (I'm using /c/ here to represent the
alveopalatal fricative that is usually spelled <ch>). Bakeries and grocery
stores spelled the word <kolache>, plural <kolaches>.

> I never heard of jitrnice; other words that I associate with that period of
> my life as Czechisms are KHOLRABI (a kind of vegetable that we ate
> raw--tasted like a turnip), BUBBY 'grandmother' and JETTA 'grandfather'.
> There was also a swear phrase which we learned as YUCKY DUMB POOPEK--I have
> no idea what it meant, but we were told it was pretty bad.
>
I guess it was quite a different world--when stealing and eating raw kohlrabi
from Jetta's garden and shouting YUCKY DUMB POOPEK at each other were major
ways to be a bad boy.
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 10 19:27:30 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:27:30 -0500
Subject: "Windy City" and Whacker Drive
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021210083702.8055G-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.142730.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:41 AM -0800 12/10/02, Peter Richardson wrote:
>Nice to know about all those friendly people in Chicago. But is the
>mistake in the spelling/pronunciation of Wacker Drive...
>
>(from Barry:)
>I mean, downtown Chicago is very, very unique. I mean, in that
>you've got layers, you got levels. I mean, like, I know they're about to
>open--re-open lower Whacker Drive, which is a great name.
>
>...likely to be a hypercorrection because of our old friend wh-/w-? Or has
>the street been renamed to reflect a sudden increase in urban assaults?
>
I was thinking of a less violent, more off-color (re)interpretation.
Of course on the reading I had in mind, one would have to be
particularly wary of distracted drivers around Whacker.  (Driving
while operating a handheld cell-phone is bad enough...)

Larry


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Dec 10 19:59:33 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:59:33 -0500
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Kolache=20(1896)?=
In-Reply-To: <124.1b3a36d2.2b27983b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.145933.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> I guess it was quite a different world--when stealing and eating raw kohlrabi
> from Jetta's garden and shouting YUCKY DUMB POOPEK at each other were major
> ways to be a bad boy.

pupek = navel
pupicek = belly-button

We ate kohlrabi, too, but the word's not Czech. The Czech word for
kohlrabi is kedluben. Kohlrabi is English, and it's dervied from German.

-- Steve Kl.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Dec 10 20:55:48 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:55:48 -0500
Subject: Presidential scholars
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021210125133.00b7cef8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.155548.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>It has always been current students; I think I would lke to stick with that.

Dennis

>Dennis, must the nominee be a student now, or could a recent M.A., say,
>qualify?
>
>At 08:43 AM 12/10/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>Colleagues,
>>
>>I about to go to my thinking-place and decide on the recipients of
>>this year's Presidential Honorary Membership Awards (as described in
>>the most recent NADS).
>>
>>To refresh your memory -
>>
>>Every year the President of ADS selects an elite group of students
>>(usually three) who have made outstanding contributions to our field.
>>In addition to the honor of being selected, each gets
>>
>>1) Four free membership years, and
>>
>>2) Free luncheon (and personal recognition) at the annual meeting,
>>this year in Atlanta of course, but with the option of putting off
>>this part of the award until a later date if the recipient cannot
>>attend (although that is almost unthinkable to me since I will give
>>this year's luncheon address), and
>>
>>3) (almost always) a photograph for the recipient's treasured
>>memories book of her or himself with the ADS President and other
>>honorees.
>>
>>I remind all members that I must be given a description of the
>>nominee's qualifications as soon as possible, even if we have
>>previously discussed your nominee in a hallway, bistro,
>>watering-hole, or even an electronic medium. Please do not depend on
>>my memory; now is the time to pick up your keyboard and nominate (or
>>re-nominate, as the case may be).
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>dInIs
>>
>>
>>--
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>Professor of Linguistics
>>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>>740 Wells Hall A
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>>Office - (517) 353-0740
>>Fax - (517) 432-2736

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Dec 10 21:28:35 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:28:35 -0500
Subject: Nam pla (1955)
In-Reply-To: <20021210114023.GB15716@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.162835.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... I absolutely think that _nam pla_ is used in English contexts without
>any explanation in a way that suggests it has become naturalized. I see it
>all the time, not just in narrow Thai-cookery use.

My experience is somewhat different. Of course I don't claim that my own
little life includes a broad cross-section of anything much. I can say that
in many hundreds of hours of more-or-less-English conversation with Thai
nationals who use nam pla routinely I've seldom heard it called "nam pla"
(although I think it would usually be obvious that I would understand
this). In English it's "fish sauce", or so seem to think these people.
Today I ran it by a local college-student savant of my acquaintance (the
next Tiger Woods?) who has been raised by a Thai-immigrant mother; he
understands only very little Thai; he says he understands "nam pla" as the
Thai word for what he and his mother would call "fish sauce" in English; he
says that if his mother wanted him to pick up a bottle of nam pla she would
call it "[Thai] fish sauce" probably. [Of course Thais vary just as do
US-ans or New Yorkers or whatever.]

I did a little Google experiment. In order to suppress recipes and culinary
dictionaries as well as non-English contexts I added "some": certainly if
"nam pla" is conventionally used in English then "some nam pla" will occur
too, and probably roughly proportionately. I've compared some near synonyms
and also some analogous words. [In particular, note Sriracha sauce, which
has no good synonym to my knowledge (unlike nam pla = fish sauce): this is
apparently named after a town; I don't know whether it's also a brand name;
it is a distinctive Thai hot sauce which I have ingested in large
quantities; the first "r" is silent.]

Search of Usenet (groups) provides a check on the Web search.

Number of hits (Web; Usenet):

"some nam pla" 4; 6
"some nuoc mam" [Vietnamese equivalent] 6; 6
"some patis" [Filipino eq.] 10; 5
"some tuk trey" [Cambodian eq.] 0; 0
"some sauce de poisson" [French West African ?eq.] 0; 0

"some fish sauce" 82; 60
"some Thai fish sauce" 10; 8
"some Vietnamese fish sauce" 2; 1

"some ketchup" + "some catsup" 990; 1065
"some Worcestershire sauce" 102; 100
"some Tabasco sauce" 212; 162
"some soy sauce" 718; 742
"some Sriracha sauce" 4; 2
"some hot sauce" 728; 535
"some picante sauce" 38; 31
"some Thai hot sauce" 3; 1

Another analogous comparison:

"bottle of nam pla" 4; 5
"bottle of nuoc mam" 10; 8
"bottle of patis" 9; 4
"bottle of Sriracha" 10; 13
"bottle of fish sauce" 57; 29
"bottle of Thai fish sauce" 3; 11
"bottle of Vietnamese fish sauce" 1; 0

[I have checked for alternate spellings, e.g. "nampla", "nam bpla", but I
haven't done so for all the comparisons.]

This sort of search is of course not flawless but I believe the results
have more weight than an isolated person's casual impression (even mine!).
I would say that if one's threshold is set to accept "nam pla" then one
will need to include "picante", "nuoc mam", "patis", and "Sriracha" too,
according to these data. Note that Vietnamese fish sauce seems to be called
by its Vietnamese name proportionally more than is Thai fish sauce called
by its Thai name.

My own opinion BTW (FWLIW!) favors inclusiveness: when in doubt, put it in.
I am very annoyed when I can't find a word in the big dictionary!

-- Doug Wilson


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 10 21:40:16 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:40:16 -0500
Subject: Australian cuisine
In-Reply-To: <000901c2a033$6ef76b00$ad00a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.164016.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Jonathon Green wrote:

#1902 Bulletin (Sydney) 12 Jul 16/2: The cow-cocky [ie small outback dairy
#farmer] is the most awful and wonderful of the genus - especially the young
#rooster. [...] Used to cows all his wretched lifetime, he actually becomes
#cow-like [...]. 'Cockies' delight,' [ie treacle] by the way, isnt his only
#culinary luxury. Let 'C.J.D.' [a correspondent] taste 'calf-pudding' and
#he'll remember it for ever afterwards. A calf's paunch, stuffed with scrub
#magpie, water-rat, hog's lard, eel, pig's liver, carrots, turnips, pop-corn,
#goose eggs, pumpkin jam, rock salt, _and_ 'Paddy's lucerne,' and boiled for
#four days.

The way one remembers a particularly painful and embarrassing moment
from one's childhood?

-- Mark A. Mandel


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Tue Dec 10 23:49:49 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 17:49:49 -0600
Subject: Kolache (1896)
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.174949.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If you want to get technical, Kohlrabi is actually German, not English (not
"derived from German").

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Kl." <stevekl at PANIX.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: Re:       Re: Kolache (1896)


> pupek = navel
> pupicek = belly-button
>
> We ate kohlrabi, too, but the word's not Czech. The Czech word for
> kohlrabi is kedluben. Kohlrabi is English, and it's dervied from German.
>
> -- Steve Kl.
>


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Wed Dec 11 01:03:37 2002
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:03:37 EST
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.200337.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/10/2002 12:43:39 PM Central Standard Time,
millie-webb at CHARTER.NET writes:


> Anyway, my point was, even if it is "blacktop", I suppose one could
> technically say it was "recently oiled" when they really mean they put
> another thin layer of blacktop over it.  That is the practice I understood
> Dale to be referring to, not the grading and then wetting down of dirt
> roads
> (whether with oil or water).
>
Yes, thanks, Millie-- the roads I meant were not dirt roads, but paved roads
to begin with, and the road crews would come in and repair them from time to
time, adding another layer of asphalt (I think).

Dale Coye


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Wed Dec 11 01:18:53 2002
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:18:53 -0600
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.191853.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed one
word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out the
spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
research this.
TIA
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Dec 11 02:24:58 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:24:58 -0500
Subject: Nam pla, prik ki nu
In-Reply-To: <p04320402ba1bb634fbd3@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.212458.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Mary Haas wrote a classic article in the 1950's, later
>anthologized in Dell Hymes's 1964 reader _Language in Culture and
>Society_, on cross-linguistic taboo avoidance, in which she observed
>that Thai students in the U.S., not wanting to be overheard
>requesting _prik_ in its various forms, substituted "lingam", the
>Sanskrit word (familiar to those of you who have memorized the Kama
>Sutra) for the male member.

I had never heard this story. I just now looked it up (1964 Hymes book).
The idea apparently was: "Somebody said we shouldn't call this pepper
'prik' because that sounds like an obscene word for 'penis' in English. So
what shall we call it? I know! Let's call it 'leung'!" Of course 'leung' =
"penis" in Thai, which apparently is/was not considered [too] obscene in
the Thai context (all-male). I suppose this was essentially a joke among
the Thai guys. The word substituted was apparently "leung"
(orthographically "leungka" or so with the last syllable silent; "eu" = IPA
inverted-m, high back unrounded vowel [represented by "y" in Haas's
article]): AFAIK this is just a conventional Thai word, but I suppose it is
cognate with Sanskrit "lingam" as Haas says.

I HAVE heard a very analogous joke/legend from Thai students and
immigrants; I must have heard 4-5 versions since about 1975. This is about
a Thai shopper at the market looking for "fak" (Thai for "squash" or so)
which of course sounds like that F-word. I don't know whether any Thai ever
had a real problem with this word or whether it's just pure imagination.

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Dec 11 02:45:48 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:45:48 -0500
Subject: "Not for nothing..." new meaning?
In-Reply-To: <F116ruzTvztPiFLlNWO00022817@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.214548.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I have lately observed the expression "not for nothing" used at the
>beginning of a personal observation to mean something on the order of: "I
>really don't want to say this but I feel I need to", as in:
>
>"Not for nothing, but I think you've been wound a little tight lately."
>Paulie "Walnuts" to Tony Soprano (Season 3, Episode 13, 20 May 2001).
>
>And some Googled examples:
>
>"Not for nothing, but look who's calling someone a pig." (4 Sept 2002)
>
>"Not for nothing, but you D.C. motherf***ers couldn't keep a secret if
>someone had a gun to your heads." (New York City, 15 March 2002)
>
>"Not-For-Nothing But...If at anytime you don't like what your reading, then
>close your eyes!" (Dudley, Massachusetts, 29 April 2002)
>
>Has anyone observed this new (to me) usage outside of the northeast? And any
>earlier observances of it? I hear it more and more frequently in speech
>originating around New York City, and have only started noticing it in
>print, but it's one of those things that--now I am aware of it--pops up
>everywhere.

I have never heard this and a brief canvass of a few acquaintances here in
Pittsburgh turns up utter blanks.

I find it on the Internet from the early 1990's, mostly in the Northeast at
a glance.

It is utterly opaque to me; I am flummoxed.

It's usually "not for nothing BUT" and in some cases it seems to have a
mild interpretation like "excuse me but", other times stronger like "I hate
to be so rude but".

Is the expression supposed to have a double-negative sense as in "it's not
worth nothing" or is it two negatives make a positive as in "it's not
without value"?

-- Doug Wilson


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Dec 11 04:07:10 2002
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:07:10 -0600
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <005d01c2a050$41abc840$a2b89b3f@db>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.220710.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"Tarmac" for me is restricted to airports--never heard it in other contexts.
>_________________________________
>"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
>--Albert Einstein

For some reason, my recollection relates it to the playground.

Barbara


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Wed Dec 11 05:26:04 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:26:04 -0600
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.232604.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not that anyone here would claim English spelling makes much sense, but I
figure in this case, it may have something to do with the "ch" at the end of
words in some Northern German dialects sounding like [k], and the
handwritten 'h' ending up looking like a 'k'?  As I say, this is totally a
guess.  There is an awful lot about English spelling that is inconsistent.
And having to rewrite the whole list all week and retake the test for
missing one word, seems rather extreme and actually counterproductive --
IMHO -- for an impressionable six-year-old who could associate misspellings
and busywork with writing forever after, and end up not writing much of
anything unless forced to do so.  What a waste of a potential writer that
would be!  This is coming from the mother of a seven-year-old who hates
writing because it is physically difficult for him, but is as creative (at
least) as his younger sister who loves writing all the time about anything..
-- Millie, the dyslexic insomniac who obsesses nightly over the purported
existence of Dog.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hause" <dwhause at JOBE.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 7:18 PM
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)


> A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed
one
> word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out
the
> spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
> spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
> pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
> research this.
> TIA
> Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
> Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
>


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Dec 11 05:53:12 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:53:12 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <002b01c2a0d5$ccd34030$7001a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.215312.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Perhaps she was thinking of Nestle Quik(tm).

English spelling has got us all so many, many times. "Quik" seems reasonable
to me--after all, most of us are at least accustomed to "nite".

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:

> Not that anyone here would claim English spelling makes much sense, but I
> figure in this case, it may have something to do with the "ch" at the end of
> words in some Northern German dialects sounding like [k], and the
> handwritten 'h' ending up looking like a 'k'?  As I say, this is totally a
> guess.  There is an awful lot about English spelling that is inconsistent.
> And having to rewrite the whole list all week and retake the test for
> missing one word, seems rather extreme and actually counterproductive --
> IMHO -- for an impressionable six-year-old who could associate misspellings
> and busywork with writing forever after, and end up not writing much of
> anything unless forced to do so.  What a waste of a potential writer that
> would be!  This is coming from the mother of a seven-year-old who hates
> writing because it is physically difficult for him, but is as creative (at
> least) as his younger sister who loves writing all the time about anything..
> -- Millie, the dyslexic insomniac who obsesses nightly over the purported
> existence of Dog.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Hause" <dwhause at JOBE.NET>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 7:18 PM
> Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
>
>
> > A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed
> one
> > word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out
> the
> > spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
> > spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
> > pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
> > research this.
> > TIA
> > Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
> > Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
> >
>


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Dec 11 08:57:48 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 03:57:48 -0500
Subject: is Google reliable?
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.035748.0500.>

R Troike and David B had the following exchange:

>>
>rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU,Net writes:
>        This leaves me wondering how usefully reliable hit statistics on
>Google are sometimes.

My experience leads me to believe that, while googling a word or phrase
can be revealing, Google is among the the least reliable of the many
electronic resources available to linguists.  It did lead me to some
sources for very rare terms, such as _eighteen-wheeler_ for a kind of
enzyme.

Season's greetings to all,
David Barnhart
barnhart at highlands.com
<<

Coming as it does from David, who has, very likely, the most experience of
any of us in trolling databases for lexical stuff, the comment re Google
reliability for lexical research is particularly valuable.

Google is a very lame tool for lexical research compared to, say, a robust,
dynamic corpus of contemporary English.  The Brit Natl Corpus is such a
corpus.  Even though it is now more than 10 years old, and British, it is
still a hugely valuable tool for lexical studies, even for general English.
The newest Oxford dictionaries from the UK were compiled using the BNC as a
main resource, and they are a true revolution in lexicography for that
reason -- IMHO.

Frank Abate


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Wed Dec 11 11:33:44 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:33:44 -0000
Subject: Blue laws
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAMEHODGAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.113344.0000.>

The following appears on a web site devoted to the rebuttal of
hoaxes (www.museumofhoaxes.com/bluelaws.html): "The term 'Blue
Laws' describes laws that regulate public morality. The phrase was
first used in an anonymous pamphlet published in 1762 titled 'The
Real Advantages Which Ministers and People May Enjoy, Especially in
the Colonies, by Conforming to the Church of England'". This - if
correct - predates the usual first citation in the Reverend Samuel
Peters' work of 1782 entitled "A General History of Connecticut".

If true, it might re-open the question of where the "blue" of "blue
laws" came from. I don't have easy access to reference collections
that might confirm or deny the truth of this interesting assertion.
Can anybody assist?

The writer references William L. Kingsley, "The Blue Laws" in "The
New Englander and Yale Review", April 1871, 243-304. There's an
interestingly close association of names here with an earlier
publication, "An Historical Discourse, delivered by Request, before
the Citizens of New Haven, April 25th, 1838, the Two Hundredth
Anniversary of the First Sttlement of the Town and Colony", by
James L. Kingsley. A review of this in the "North American Review"
of October 1838 says, "Professor Kingsley has found, what, perhaps,
will surprise some, that the popular notion of the existence in
Connecticut of a code of sumptuary legislation, commonly spoken of
as the Blue Laws, is utterly without foundation".

Incidentally, a writer in the same journal the following April,
reviewing a book on the blue laws, remarks disdainfully of it that
"The great object of the compiler was, obviously, to make a book
which would sell among a class of readers, with whom matter of fact
is of secondary importance". Nothing changes much, does it?


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Dec 11 12:43:11 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:43:11 -0500
Subject: Kolache (1896)
In-Reply-To: <001d01c2a0a6$d4365120$7001a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.074311.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Indeed. The English is "Cabbage Root" (although this may be a
calque). Kohrabi is, however, widely used in English and is surely a
"borrowed" word (to continue to be technical).

dInIs

>If you want to get technical, Kohlrabi is actually German, not English (not
>"derived from German").
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Steve Kl." <stevekl at PANIX.COM>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:59 PM
>Subject: Re: Re:       Re: Kolache (1896)
>
>
>>  pupek = navel
>>  pupicek = belly-button
>>
>>  We ate kohlrabi, too, but the word's not Czech. The Czech word for
>>  kohlrabi is kedluben. Kohlrabi is English, and it's dervied from German.
>>
>>  -- Steve Kl.
>>

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Dec 11 12:50:56 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:50:56 -0500
Subject: Kolache (1896), but reverting to Kohlrabi
In-Reply-To: <001d01c2a0a6$d4365120$7001a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.075056.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the early 1980's, just up the road from Ann  Arbor, there was
(is?) a Kohlrabi festival (unabashedly German). There were kohlrabi's
dressed up in costumes, a biggest kohlrabi contest, and, my favorite,
an ugliest kohlrabi contest. One bright afternoon my wife and I went,
and I entered the kohrabi tossing contest (distance not accuracy). To
my surprise, I was in the lead for a long time and was promised a
prize (except I had to wait around to see if I was outstripped). Many
polkas, beers, and bowls of fresh kohlrabi slices and dill dip later,
I saw, to my horror, a team of worthies whose physical makeup bespoke
more of years of hard outdoor work than my putrid ex-athletic,
office-bound frame could contest with. Burping and cursing, we went
home empty-handed, and I have since eschewed the vegetable, in spite
of fond memories of it from my childhood, when my Hungarian
grandfather would slice fresh chunks of it for me from his garden.

dInIs

PS: Kohlrabi was also borrowed into Hungarian as the word for this
delicacy, at least the Hungarian I learned as a child.

>If you want to get technical, Kohlrabi is actually German, not English (not
>"derived from German").
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Steve Kl." <stevekl at PANIX.COM>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:59 PM
>Subject: Re: Re:       Re: Kolache (1896)
>
>
>>  pupek = navel
>>  pupicek = belly-button
>>
>>  We ate kohlrabi, too, but the word's not Czech. The Czech word for
>>  kohlrabi is kedluben. Kohlrabi is English, and it's dervied from German.
>>
>>  -- Steve Kl.
>>

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Dec 11 12:54:03 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:54:03 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <044301c2a0b3$49381ec0$cebf22d0@dwhause>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.075403.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6 she is probably ready for the horrible revelation that
grapheme-phoneme correspondence in English is not perfect (just tell
her that for now). When she is 8, you can begin the historical
lectures (about where the "c" came from, where all those "wh"s came
from, etc...).

dInIs

>A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed one
>word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out the
>spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
>spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
>pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
>research this.
>TIA
>Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
>Ft. Leonard Wood, MO

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Dec 11 12:13:57 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:13:57 -0500
Subject: is Google reliable?
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.071357.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET,Net writes:

>Google is a very lame tool for lexical research compared to, say, a
>robust,
>dynamic corpus of contemporary English.

While I have not a very high opinion of a "straight" google search, it
is made more useful for general linguistic research in news media by
using "Google News."  This resource is described in their own words:
Google News presents information culled from approximately 4,000 news
sources worldwide and automatically arranged to present the most
relevant news first. Topics are updated continuously throughout the
day, so you will see new stories each time you check the page. Google
has developed an automated grouping process for Google News that pulls
together related headlines and photos from thousands of sources
worldwide -- enabling you to see how different news organizations are
reporting the same story. You pick the item that interests you, then go
directly to the site which published the account you wish to read.
The address of the site is http://news.google.com/
There are several ways to examine the record of English usage.   Most
of these ways warrant justification for particular lexicographic
projects depending upon their scope and objective.  When vigorously
examining new words it is important to have as wide a range of
publications as is practicable to handle.   Such sources, especially on
the Web, are frequently changing their base of observation.  A stable
data base, such as a static corpus, can make statistical observations
more accurately.  My father's scheme for many years relied upon a
stable inventory of publications that allowed for the reliable
estimation of language growth year by year.  His approach was described
on several occasions.  On the subject in "Methods and Standards for
Collecting Citations for English Dictionaries" in Proceedings of the
Fourth International Congress of Applied Linguistics (Stuttgart, 1977,
p 278): "Most excerpting of citations is now done by various dictionary
publishers to bring up to date existing file so that new dictionaries
now in existence can be kept up to date.  Such reading is done in
newspapers of record, news magazines, and various magazines of literary
or scientific importance."  He then lists the publications used in
updating the World Book Dictionary (when it was under his editorial
direction).  He continues: "All of these newspapers and magazines are
circulated largely among educated speakers of English.  It would be
interesting to calculate the total readership of these newspapers and
magazines in relation to the total number of speakers of English in
order to determine in some fashion the extent of our sampling.  It
would be interesting also to calculate the extent of overlapping of the
new vocabulary that comes into the English language in each section of
the reading..."
Regards,
David Barnhart
barnhart at highlands.com


From THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU  Wed Dec 11 14:48:21 2002
From: THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:48:21 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.094821.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The "ck" spelling in English words is actually the indirect descendant of
vowel lengthening in open syllables between Old and Middle English.  Vowel
lengthening in words like "bake" (Old English "bacan" with a short a) was
blocked in syllables that ended in two consonants.  In fact, original long
vowels were shortened in closed syllables, yielding pairs like "five" and
"fifty."

When long consonants ceased to be pronounced, the double-letter spelling
eventually became a sign of a preceding short vowel in words like "hidden."
c had been used in Old English for the affricate in "edge" (Old English
"ecg"), as well as the long cc in Middle English "cuccu," "cuckoo."

ck becomes the spelling of what was originally long [k:].  Once it becomes
the sign of a preceding short vowel, it is apt to show up it words like
"quick," which does not seem to have had a long consonant at all (Old
English "cwicu") but which somehow escaped open syllable lengthening.
Perhaps there is something here that escapes me, but my resources now are
limited.

Middle English spelling was reasonable and generally phonetic, but wildly
inconsistent.  Anyone using an authentic text for Chaucer has noticed that
he seems never to spell the same word the same way twice.  Modern English
settled onto spelling the same morpheme the same way no matter how it was
pronounced, so that we have pairs like "sane" and "sanity" (with an
inconsistency even here with "vain" and "vanity").

The spellings mentioned above apply to English words, of course, and one
must take into account the fact that about half the vocabulary of English is
French.  The "i before e except after c" rule is a rule which works very
well for French words like "receive" and "relieve," but not at all well for
English words like "neighbor" and "weigh."

The sources for research on English spelling tend to be scattered, but a
place to start is a history of the language.  I took a look at an old
edition of the Pyles/Algeo History of the English Language.

Sorry for such a long post.

Thom Harrison


-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU]
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 7:54 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: English spelling origin (OT?)


At 6 she is probably ready for the horrible revelation that
grapheme-phoneme correspondence in English is not perfect (just tell
her that for now). When she is 8, you can begin the historical
lectures (about where the "c" came from, where all those "wh"s came
from, etc...).

dInIs

>A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed
one
>word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out the
>spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
>spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
>pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
>research this.
>TIA
>Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
>Ft. Leonard Wood, MO

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Dec 11 14:54:08 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:54:08 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <044301c2a0b3$49381ec0$cebf22d0@dwhause>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.095408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Dave Hause wrote:

#A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed one
#word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out the
#spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
#spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
#pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
#research this.

The poor kid was probably corrupted by Nestle's brand of chocolate drink
powder.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Dec 11 15:06:25 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:06:25 EST
Subject: OT: Louisiana Christmas
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.100625.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Very OT, but some of our regular contributors may like it.

>Day 1:
>Dear Boudreaux, Thanks for de bird in de Pear tree. I fix it las' night
>with dirty rice. I doan tink de pear tree will grow wid all da heat in the
>summa.
>Marie
>
>Day 2:
>Dear Boudreaux, You letter say you sent two turtle doves, but all I got was
>two scrawny pigeons. Anyway, I mixed dem with andouille an made some gumbo
>out of dem.
>Marie
>
>Day 3:
>Dear Boudreaux, Why couldn't you a sent me Crawfish? I'm tired of eating
>dem darn birds. I gave two of dose prissy French chickens to Marie Trahan
>over at Grans Bayou an fed the tird one to my dog Phideaux. Marie needed
>some sparring partners for her fighting rooster.
>Marie
>
>Day 4:
>Dear Boudreau, Mon Dieux! I tol you no more xxxxx birds. Deez four, what
>you call dem "calling birds" were so noisy you could hear dem all de way to
>Napoleonville. I used dere necks for my crab traps, an fed de rest of dem
>to de gators.
>Marie
>
>Day 5:
>Dear Boudreaux, You finally sen' somethin useful. I like dem golden rings,
>me. I hocked dem at da pawn shop in Thibodeaux and got enuf money to fix da
>shaft on my shrimp boat an buy a round for da boys at de Raisin' Cane
>Lounge. Merci Beaucoup!
>Marie
>
>Day 6:
>Dear Boudreaux, Couchon! Back to da birds, you Cajun turkey! Poor egg
>suckin' Phideaux is scared to death at dem six geeses. He tried to eat dems
>eggs and dey peck de heck out ah his snout. Dey good at eating cockroaches,
>though. I may stuff one of dem wit oyster dressing on Christmas day.
>Marie
>
>Day 7:
>Dear Boudreaux, I'm gonna wring your fool neck next time I see you.
>Thibeau, da mailman, is ready to kill ya. The merde from all dem birds is
>stinkin' up his mailboat. He afraid someone will slip on dat stuff and sue
>him good. I let those seven swans loose to swim on de bayou and some duck
>hunters from Mississippi blasted dem out of de water. Talk to you tomorrow.
>Marie
>
>Day 8:
>Dear Boudreaux, poor ole Thibeau, he had to make tree trips on his mailboat
>to deliver dem 8 maids a milkin and their cows. One of dem cows got spooked
>by da alligators and almost tipped over da boat. I doan like dem shiftless
>maids, me no. I tolt dem to get to work guttin fish and sweepin the shack
>but dey say it wasn't in dair contract. Dey probably think dey too good ta
>skin nutrias I caught las night.
>Marie
>
>Day 9:
>Dear Boudreaux, What you trying to do huh? Thibeau had to borrow the
>Lutcher ferry to carry dem jumpin twits you call Lords-a-Leaping across the
>bayou. As soon as dey gots here dey wanted a tea break with crumpets. I
>doan know what dat means but I says, "Well La Di Da. You get Chicory coffee
>or nuttin." Mon Dieu, Emile. What I'm gonna feed all dese bozos? Dey too
>snooty for fried nutria, and de cows done eat my turnip greens.
>Marie
>
>Day 10:
>Dear Boudreaux, You got to be outs you mind! If de mailman don't kill you,
>I will fo sure. Today he deliver 10 half nikid floozies from Bourbon
>Street. Dey said dey be "Ladies Dancin" but dey doan act like ladies in
>front of dose Limey twits. Dey almos left after one of dem got bit by a
>water moccasin over by da out-house. I had to butcher 2 cows to feed toute
>le monde an had to get toilet paper; the Sears catalog wasn't good enuf fer
>dose hoity toity Lords' royal behin'.
>Marie
>
>Day 11:
>Dear Boudreaux, where y'at? Cheerio an pip pip. Your 11 pipers piping
>arrives today from the House of Blues, second lining as dey got off de
>boat. We fixed stuffed goose and beef jambalaya and we having a fais-do-do.
>Da new mailman he having a good time, yeah, dancing with de floozies.
>Thibeau he jump off de Sunshine Bridge yesterday, screaming your name. If
>you get a mysterious, ticking package in de mail, doan open it.
>Marie
>
>Day 12:
>Dear Boudreaux, I sorry to tell ya but I not your true love anymore, no.
>After da fais-do-do, I spent de night with Jacque, de head piper. We decide
>to open a restaurant and gentleman's club on de bayou. The floozies, pardon
>me, Ladies dancing can make $20 for a table dance, and de Lords can be
>waiters an valet park de boats. Since de maids doan have no more cows ta
>milk, I trained dem ta set my crab traps, watch my trotlines, an run my
>shrimping business. We will probably gross a million nex year.
>Marie


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Wed Dec 11 15:14:58 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:14:58 -0500
Subject: Kolache (1896)
In-Reply-To: <001d01c2a0a6$d4365120$7001a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.101458.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:

> If you want to get technical, Kohlrabi is actually German, not English (not
> "derived from German").

It's listed in AHD, RHC, MW10, WNW; it's an English word now, too, not
unlike sauerkraut.

-- Steve


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Dec 11 15:18:48 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:18:48 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <D6166D55BA96D511BEDE00105A1901320158722B@mail.maconstate.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.101848.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Thom Harrison wrote:

#Middle English spelling was reasonable and generally phonetic, but wildly
#inconsistent.  Anyone using an authentic text for Chaucer has noticed that
#he seems never to spell the same word the same way twice.

I think Chaucer and his contemporaries must have had a very different
*concept* than ours of the nature of spelling. To us, it's a combination
of rules with some generality ("b" is almost always [b], "th" either
theta or edh), arbitrary items to be learned by rote ("siege" and
"seize"), and things in between. To them, I suspect it was a set of
rules of thumb for producing a graph that would point the reader to the
word the writer had in mind.

#The spellings mentioned above apply to English words, of course, and one
#must take into account the fact that about half the vocabulary of English is
#French.  The "i before e except after c" rule is a rule which works very
#well for French words like "receive" and "relieve," but not at all well for
#English words like "neighbor" and "weigh."

I've heard a second line (or 3rd and 4th):
        or when pronounced [ei]
        as in "neighbor" and "weigh"

But that doesn't cover "height" or "sleight". ISTM that this exception
is more accurately (though less mnemonically) stated as
        or when followed by silent "gh"


-- Mark A. Mandel


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Wed Dec 11 15:28:26 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:28:26 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212111012440.77562104-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.102826.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote:

> But that doesn't cover "height" or "sleight". ISTM that this exception
> is more accurately (though less mnemonically) stated as
>         or when followed by silent "gh"

And there's always weird exceptions.

-- Steve


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Dec 11 15:45:17 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:45:17 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <D6166D55BA96D511BEDE00105A1901320158722B@mail.maconstate.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.104517.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thom Harrison writes:
>
>The spellings mentioned above apply to English words, of course, and one
>must take into account the fact that about half the vocabulary of English is
>French.  The "i before e except after c" rule is a rule which works very
>well for French words like "receive" and "relieve," but not at all well for
>English words like "neighbor" and "weigh."
>
The version I remember from grade school goes

I before E
Except after C,
Or when sounded as A*
As in "neighbor" and "weigh"

This one has fewer exceptions, one of which is "weird", which was
explained by the fact that, after all, it is weird.

Larry

*Long "a", of course


From THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU  Wed Dec 11 16:01:37 2002
From: THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:01:37 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.110137.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

None of this accounts, either, for spellings like those of "debt" and
"accommodate," which were modified to make them look more like their Latin
originals.

Thom


-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU]
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:45 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: English spelling origin (OT?)


Thom Harrison writes:
>
>The spellings mentioned above apply to English words, of course, and one
>must take into account the fact that about half the vocabulary of English
is
>French.  The "i before e except after c" rule is a rule which works very
>well for French words like "receive" and "relieve," but not at all well for
>English words like "neighbor" and "weigh."
>
The version I remember from grade school goes

I before E
Except after C,
Or when sounded as A*
As in "neighbor" and "weigh"

This one has fewer exceptions, one of which is "weird", which was
explained by the fact that, after all, it is weird.

Larry

*Long "a", of course


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Dec 11 16:57:15 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:57:15 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.50.0212111028050.27460-100000@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.085715.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In these days of tension in the Middle East, it's good to remember that

neither leisure sheik seized the weird foreign height.

PR

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Steve Kl. wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote:
>
> > But that doesn't cover "height" or "sleight". ISTM that this exception
> > is more accurately (though less mnemonically) stated as
> >         or when followed by silent "gh"
>
> And there's always weird exceptions.
>
> -- Steve
>


From redvelvetmmm at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 11 16:51:30 2002
From: redvelvetmmm at HOTMAIL.COM (deidra bowling)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:51:30 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.115130.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20021211/0c57b90b/attachment.html>

From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Dec 11 17:14:15 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:14:15 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <p04320402ba1d0d343fd9@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.091415.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:45 AM -0500 Laurence Horn
<laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:

> The version I remember from grade school goes
>
> I before E
> Except after C,
> Or when sounded as A*
> As in "neighbor" and "weigh"
>

Here's the rest:

But their, weird and either,
Foreign, seize and neither,
Leisure, forfeit and height
Are exceptions spelled right.

Peter Mc.


****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Wed Dec 11 17:51:44 2002
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:51:44 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <F59C2pKFRyqwdpOTziw00027964@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.125144.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I assume you meant "washcloths" for the plural? vs. wash[kloz]?

At 11:51 AM 12/11/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>I am from Ashland, Ky.  I just wanted to share this little story that
>happened at my house a few months ago.  My friend spent the night at my
>house and asked, "Can I have a warsh rag?"  My sister, who is eleven said
>"Oh Tracy you don't have to use a rag.  We have washclothes."  She had no
>idea what my friend was talking about.  I found it odd that she didn't
>understand that she meant washcloth because I have heard it said before by
>my grandma and other older people.  My parents laughed about the whole
>story and were trying to explain to my sister that it is common for some
>people to say this.
>
>
>----------
>Help STOP SPAM with <http://g.msn.com/8HMTEN/2016>the new MSN 8 and get 2
>months FREE*


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Dec 11 20:30:34 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:30:34 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Linguists' Federation
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.153034.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Début du message réexpédié :

> De: Arnaud Febvre <afebvre at pt.lu>
> Date: Wed 11 Dec 2002  15:14:46 America/New_York
> À: "info at clubpolyglotte.com" <info at clubpolyglotte.com>
> Objet: Linguists' Federation
> Répondre à: arnaud.febvre at thaon.com
>
> Hi,
>
> You are receiving this e-mail as your e-mail was on a website related
> to
> languages.
>
> My name is Arnaud Febvre, I am writing on behalf of the Linguists'
> Federation. The Federation was founded in Europe in June 1937 by "Union
> Polyglotte", the Linguists'Club, and the "Weltclub". The Linguists'
> Federation aims at promoting a better knowledge of languages by
> organising meeting to practise languages. It is also seeking to help
> with the promotion of existing circles and clubs in Europe and with the
> setting up of new associations worldwide.
>
> We currently are fourteen clubs and circles covering Belgium, France,
> Germany, Ireland, Luxembourg and the U.K. and we are looking at ways of
> partnership with any organisation (whether it is a club, a circle or
> whatever name) in different continents. Just like we have spontaneously
> started social language clubs in Europe, we believe there must be
> similar organisations worldwide and we would like to suggest a
> "virtual"
> partnership. We believe it might be of interests to know that clubs or
> associations exist on different part of the globe.
>
> Basically our clubs meet on average once a week and gather on average
> 50
> to 60 people depending on the evening, people have a drink. More info
> is
> available from our gateway and partner website
>
> We can provide links from our homepage at this URL:
> www.linguistsfederation.com for free and without any commitment as long
> as people aim at promoting the practise of languages, that you are
> non-political and non profit making organisations.
>
> Please feel free to forward this e-mail to whoever has similar goals.
>
> Thanks in anticipation,
>
> Arnaud Febvre for the Linguists' Federation and Linguists' Club
> Luxembourg.
>


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Dec 11 20:30:41 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:30:41 -0500
Subject: Max Hunter Folk Song Collection
In-Reply-To: <F59C2pKFRyqwdpOTziw00027964@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.153041.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I searched the archives and didn't see this mentioned before. Don't ask how
my search went from:

the correct past tense for dive
to Longfellow's "The Song of Hiawatha"
to Johnny Preston's "Running Bear"
to an audio database of folk songs sung by people from Missouri, Arkansas
and Oklahoma,

but ya'll know how the Web sometimes works. Anyway, for anybody who was
unaware this was on-line and would like to have a listen:

http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/maxhunter/Singer.html

My apologies if this is repetitive.



Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Dec 11 21:07:52 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:07:52 -0800
Subject: Max Hunter Folk Song Collection
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021211152223.00b3fb88@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.130752.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oboy. I can hardly wait for the Safire column on "Running Bear." I'm eager
to hear whether anyone's diven into Gitchee Goomee (sp?) recently.

PR

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:

> I searched the archives and didn't see this mentioned before. Don't ask how
> my search went from:
>
> the correct past tense for dive
> to Longfellow's "The Song of Hiawatha"
> to Johnny Preston's "Running Bear"
> to an audio database of folk songs sung by people from Missouri, Arkansas
> and Oklahoma,
>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Dec 11 22:45:56 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:45:56 -0500
Subject: Max Hunter Folk Song Collection
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021211152223.00b3fb88@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.174556.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There ain't no "correct" past tense for 'dive'!  Pass that on to your boss.

At 03:30 PM 12/11/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>I searched the archives and didn't see this mentioned before. Don't ask how
>my search went from:
>
>the correct past tense for dive
>to Longfellow's "The Song of Hiawatha"
>to Johnny Preston's "Running Bear"
>to an audio database of folk songs sung by people from Missouri, Arkansas
>and Oklahoma,
>
>but ya'll know how the Web sometimes works. Anyway, for anybody who was
>unaware this was on-line and would like to have a listen:
>
>http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/maxhunter/Singer.html
>
>My apologies if this is repetitive.
>
>
>
>Kathleen E. Miller
>Research Assistant to William Safire
>The New York Times


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Dec 11 22:48:03 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:48:03 -0500
Subject: Max Hunter Folk Song Collection
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021211130537.15468R-100000@calvin.linfield. edu>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.174803.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If you dove/dived into it now, you'd be mighty cold.

At 01:07 PM 12/11/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Oboy. I can hardly wait for the Safire column on "Running Bear." I'm eager
>to hear whether anyone's diven into Gitchee Goomee (sp?) recently.
>
>PR
>
>On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:
>
> > I searched the archives and didn't see this mentioned before. Don't ask how
> > my search went from:
> >
> > the correct past tense for dive
> > to Longfellow's "The Song of Hiawatha"
> > to Johnny Preston's "Running Bear"
> > to an audio database of folk songs sung by people from Missouri, Arkansas
> > and Oklahoma,
> >


From candi_cool at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 12 05:19:47 2002
From: candi_cool at HOTMAIL.COM (Candace Cool)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:19:47 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.001947.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am going to be teaching soon and I have a very large fear of how I will
sound to my class with my kentucky accent.  Especially if I leave the state.



<html><DIV><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"><FONT
color=#993366>Candi&nbsp;&nbsp; Cool&nbsp; </FONT><IMG height=12
src="http://graphics.hotmail.com/emsmilep.gif" width=12></FONT></DIV></html>





>From: Millie Webb <millie-webb at CHARTER.NET>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:48:49 -0600
>
>As I said, this was the vague impression of Mid-Landers, who had probably
>never even been "out there".  And a lot of Washingtonians and Oregonians
>for
>a while there, seemed to be transplants from California, and thus, the
>perceived spread of the "surfer-like" speech.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "FRITZ JUENGLING" <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 3:18 PM
>Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>
>
> > Wow! Amazing how distorted things can be! I think Curt and his band,
>Nirvana, were from Seattle, the alleged home of grunge, which is what I
>think you are describing. As far as sounding like surfers--I don't think
>so.
>I can't imagine anyone trying to sound like a surfer here. That's just a
>different culture.  (Also, the water's too cold to be into surfing, unless
>you have a thick wet suit).  I guess we Oregonians are just 'out there'
>(i.e. West) and are largely unknown.  That's just fine.
> > Fritz
> >
> >


_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Dec 12 12:36:57 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:36:57 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <F236p23dUSTRkulYj5b00016801@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.073657.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Candace,

I am from Louisville, and I have taught and studied my entire
professional life at Wisconsin, Ohio State, SUNY, and now Michigan
State. I have an enormous set of put-downs, one-liners, quick
come-backs, and even detailed arguments (the last the least
effective) to use against NLBs (Northern Language Bigots). Stay in
touch if you need me.

dInIs




I am going to be teaching soon and I have a very large fear of how I will
sound to my class with my kentucky accent.  Especially if I leave the state.

Candace Cool


--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From sbmorr01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Thu Dec 12 12:35:18 2002
From: sbmorr01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Stephani Hardin)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:35:18 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.073518.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OH Please!!   I think we all know Deidra meant "washcloths".  I hope we have
more to do with our time than to come in here and check for mistakes in
spelling and grammar.  If we could refrain from being 'know it alls' more
people would feel comfortable responding to messages on-line, and we would not
be missing out on their input.  Put that in your pip and smoke it (I misspelled
pipe just for you Beverly).

Deidra makes a good point.  I think it's interesting that the phrase "warsh
rag" was alien to her sister.  Especially considering the fact that she lives
in Kentucky, where it is pretty common.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Dec 12 12:58:13 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:58:13 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <1039696518.3df88286dbbb7@ldap.morehead-st.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.075813.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Stephani,

I think Beverly is neither a prescriptivist nor a nit-picker (unless
I have completely misjudged her character). She may have actually had
some phonology in mind (the vowel of "cloth"?), not trivial spelling
stuff, which I am sure we all give less than a hoot about, except
when spelling "errors" reflect dialect variants.

I am a Kentuckian (well, Louisvillian) and find "washrag" (actually
"warshrag") very common. On the other hand, "warshcloth" seems quite
good to me too, but I'm taking bets it came later in my linguistic
development.

BUT - I cannot say "dishcloth." It's not English. "Dishrag" is it.

Back to the point. Since this was a "little sister," we may simply be
witnessing the death of "-rag" and the victory of "-cloth." The
mainstream pejorative senses of "rag" could have a lot to do with
this (as the late Harold Allen argued in AS long ago about
participial "drunk" being replaced by "drank," a process which he
claimed was at least in part due to contamination by inebriated sense
of "drunk").

dInIs

PS: Isn't there some Transatlantic word like "flannel" for this? Has
that held its ground?

PPS: Some people on this list have questioned my authority when I
make such pronouncements as "It's not English."

1) I am the President (until January) of the American Dialect Society.

2) If that's not enough, I recently did an acoustic (LPC) analysis of
my vowel system. Every one of my steady state F1-F2 readings lies
exactly on top of the male formant values given in Peterson and
Barney (1952). (OK, I didn't look at any /E/s before nasals, and I
didn't check the glides of diphthongs.)



>OH Please!!   I think we all know Deidra meant "washcloths".  I hope we have
>more to do with our time than to come in here and check for mistakes in
>spelling and grammar.  If we could refrain from being 'know it alls' more
>people would feel comfortable responding to messages on-line, and we would not
>be missing out on their input.  Put that in your pip and smoke it (I
>misspelled
>pipe just for you Beverly).
>
>Deidra makes a good point.  I think it's interesting that the phrase "warsh
>rag" was alien to her sister.  Especially considering the fact that she lives
>in Kentucky, where it is pretty common.

Stephani Hardin
--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 12 13:38:58 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:38:58 EST
Subject: Thai Food (1970, 1971,
 1978); Maltese Sauce (1959); Gado Gado (1969)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.083858.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   It was raining out, so I spent a quiet night (after work) in the Popik
archives, brousing through the GOURMET index.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
THAI FOOD

   "Mee Krob" or "Mi Krob" each has over 1,000 Google hits.  Neither spelling
is in the revised OED(?).  THE OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD, pg. 791, "SOME THAI
FOOD TERMS," explains that "_mee krob_ are wheat noodles deep-fried and
coated in sugar syrup as a savoury dish."  WEBSTER'S NEW WORLD DICTIONARY OF
CULINARY ARTS has:

_mee krob_ (mee krob)  A Thai dish of deep-fried rice sticks, green onions,
red bell peppers, chives, tofu, cilantro and a sweet-and-sour sauce.

    OK, maybe _I _should treat an OED editor to "Pad Thai."  I'll explain
this dish that everyone else has heard of.  For background music, I'll bring
along my tape of "klezmer"...


August 1970, GOURMET magazine
Fish, Sweet-and-Sour, Thai...66
Shrimps in Fruit Sauce Baan Thai...66
Chicken
   Broiled, Thai (Gai Yang)...66
   Curry (Gang Ped Gai)...66
Pork Curry, Hot (gang Ped)...66
Banana Fritters, Thai...66
Coconut Milk...66
Fried Rice, Thai (Khao Pad)...65
Thai Lemon Soup (Gang Tom Yam)...65

December 1971, GOURMET
Fish, Thai-style (Cian)...78
Beef Curry (Kaeng Phed Nua)...76
Chicken Curry (Kaeng Phed Kai)...76
Noodles Fried with Meat and Shellfish (Mi Krob)...78
Mango Salad, Thai...78

October 1978, GOURMET
Chicken with Holy Basil (Gai Pad Bai Krapao)...110
Pork with Garlic and Pepper (Moo Tod Kratium Priktai)...110
Coconut Milk, Thai..110
Red Curry Paste (Nam Prik Gaeng Ped)...110
Shrimp Soup, Aromatic (Tom Yam Kung)...108
Beef Salad, Spicy (Laab)...208
Noodle, Fried, Salad (Mee Krob)...109
Squid Salad (Yam Pla Muk)...108

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
POSOLE/POZOLE (continued)

   Not in the new volume of DARE P-SK, not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF
AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK, and not in OED.  Amazing.
   I was looking through GOURMET for about fifteen years, from the 1960s.

December 1978, GOURMET
Hominy with Beef and Pork (New Mexican Posole)...88

November 1981, GOURMET
Hominy with Pork and Chili Peppers (Pozole Posada Santa Fe)...146

September 1985
Posole  (Page number cut off--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MALTESE SAUCE

   Not in the revised OED.  "Maltese sauce" is hollandaise sauce with some
orange added.
   This was in GOURMET almost every year, each March!  I probably missed
some:

October 1959  (Hollandaise Variations: Maltaise), May 1966, December 1968,
March 1970, March 1971, March 1972, March 1973, March 1976, March 1977, March
1978, March 1980, March 1981, March 1982

December 1975, GOURMET
Meat and Macaroni Pie, Maltese (Timpana)...67
Dolphinfish Pie, Maltese (Lampuki Pie)...62
Rice with Calves' Brains, Maltese, Baked...67
Vegetable Soup with Eggs, Maltese (Widow's Soup)...62

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
GADO GADO

   Not in OED.  I might as well get to Indonesia on this post.

August 1969, GOURMET
Vegetables, Mixed, with Peanut Sauce (Gado-Gado)...48

December 1982, GOURMET
Bean-Curd and Vegetable Salad (Gado-Gado Jakarta Mandarin)...198


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Dec 12 14:10:30 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:10:30 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <206797.1039598055@[10.218.201.115]>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.061030.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So where does "science" fit?


--- "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
> --On Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:45 AM -0500
> Laurence Horn
> <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>
> > The version I remember from grade school goes
> >
> > I before E
> > Except after C,
> > Or when sounded as A*
> > As in "neighbor" and "weigh"
> >
>
> Here's the rest:
>
> But their, weird and either,
> Foreign, seize and neither,
> Leisure, forfeit and height
> Are exceptions spelled right.
>
> Peter Mc.
>
>
>
****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *
> McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Dec 12 13:10:32 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:10:32 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.081032.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU,Net writes:

>I am a Kentuckian (well, Louisvillian) and find "washrag" (actually
>"warshrag") very common. On the other hand, "warshcloth" seems quite
>good to me too, but I'm taking bets it came later in my linguistic
>development.

>BUT - I cannot say "dishcloth." It's not English. "Dishrag" is it.

While I cannot say these are my preferences, they were so for my father
(born in Missouri with some probable connections to Kentucky, and
raised in Kansas.  I know both of these terms from my father's speech
but prefer dishcloth to dishrag and washcloth the washrag.  Sometimes I
do catch myself using the -rag form as a variant.  I was born in
Chicago (my mother came from southwestern Wisconsin.

Phonologically, I am Chicagoan with some NY suburb influences.  My
father regularly used "worsh".

Regards,
David Barnhart


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Dec 12 13:19:59 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:19:59 -0500
Subject: Gado Gado (1969)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.081959.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Bapopik at AOL.COM,Net writes:
>GADO GADO

>   Not in OED.  I might as well get to Indonesia on this post.

>August 1969, GOURMET
>Vegetables, Mixed, with Peanut Sauce (Gado-Gado)...48

>December 1982, GOURMET
>Bean-Curd and Vegetable Salad (Gado-Gado Jakarta Mandarin)...198

Gado-gado appears in the Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 3, 2-3,
c.1984).  The earliest date then was 1977.  Thanks to you Barry for the
1969 quote.

Gado-gado also appears in Macquarie and the Longman Register of New
Words.  (See the Barnhart New-Words Concordance, p 142).

Regards,
David Barnhart


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Thu Dec 12 14:38:17 2002
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:38:17 -0800
Subject: Exposure to language
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.063817.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David:

> While I cannot say these are my preferences, they were so for my father
> (born in Missouri with some probable connections to Kentucky, and
> raised in Kansas.  I know both of these terms from my father's speech
> but prefer dishcloth to dishrag and washcloth the washrag.  Sometimes I
> do catch myself using the -rag form as a variant.  I was born in
> Chicago (my mother came from southwestern Wisconsin.
>
> Phonologically, I am Chicagoan with some NY suburb influences.  My
> father regularly used "worsh".

INteresting. "Washcloth" is "it" in the Pacific NW, AFAIK, and yes, I've
actually heard "worsh" around here.  There are a lot of "incomers"
influencing things around here, though, naturally.
Anne G


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 12 15:24:21 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:24:21 EST
Subject: All-Candy Diet
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.102421.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   (Just a minute, let me put down the Ben & Jerry's.  One day, I've got to
sue those guys.)
   A stupid article appeared in an October 2002 NEW YORK POST about an "all
candy diet."  A few crazy New York City women skip meals by eating sugar
instead.
   (Just a minute.  It looks like I've run out of Haagen Daz in the freezer.
This is a tragedy.  Back to the post.)
   Nutritionists are aghast, but dentists just love the diet.  I thought the
whole thing was pretty stupid, and thought no more of it.  Then my January
2003 WIRED magazine arrived this week.  (A New Jersey Nets player is on the
cover of WIRED.  The Nets usually can't get on the cover of BASKETBALL
magazines.  We must be near the apocalypse.  I digress, but I'm short of
chocolate.)
   Pg. 48:

WIRED            TIRED              EXPIRED
all-candy diet   all-protein diet   cabbage-coup diet

   Here's a Googled article that was published last month in PITT NEWS.  A
bad newspaper publishes a dumb article about a few people and it's a _new
trend_:


The sweet taste of the all-candy diet
Pourquoi?
by LESLIE HOFFMAN
November 01, 2002

What if you could eat Necco wafers for breakfast, Swedish fish for lunch and
Reese's peanut butter cups for dinner and still lose weight? This isn't a
solution to finishing off a giant bag of Halloween candy in one day, it's a
new trend. It turns out many young women are now resorting to a new method of
weight loss, "The All-Candy Diet," to shed pounds and fulfill their cravings.
In a recent article featured on Anythingbut.com, a reporter interviewed many
professional young women in New York City who have to maintain their weight
and find it easiest to do through primarily eating or supplementing their
diets with sugary delights. We're not talking about women who sneak a Hershey
bar to satisfy a late afternoon sugar low, but women who obtain most of their
calories from candy: gummy bears, Sugar Daddies and Jelly Bellies. One photo
editor in her thirties admitted a special craving for chewy Spree candy. "If
I'm eating something before dinner," she said, "I'll go for candy. And then
you've eaten so much candy that you're not even hungry!" Of course you're not
hungry - you've done just what your mother always warned you about: you've
spoiled your dinner. While the idea of chowing down on Cherry Clan candies
and Lemonheads may seem appetizing, it of course is not as tasty as it seems.
Serious health complications arise in adults who malnourish themselves by
eating too much candy. In addition to the health problems you'd expect such
as cavities, adults who eat too much sugar position themselves to be prime
candidates for diabetes. These women - young professionals - all know the
health risks associated with just eating candy, but they do it anyway. It's
not surprising to learn that it's young people who are resorting to this
diet. Candy has a cheerful, colorful image that is associated with youth and
innocence - ever wonder why parents just let their kids eat as much candy as
they want on Halloween night? And as a child, didn't you ever wonder why your
parents didn't eat as much candy as you did? The Food Network recently
presented a special about the candy business; candy companies rely heavily on
informal taste tests presented to children. Considering this country's
consumer lifestyle, it shouldn't be all that surprising that we have young
people eating up Jelly Bellies like they're going out of style. It's simply
indicative of our capacity for overindulgence. Maybe the dangerous aspect of
this particular diet isn't that it's "All-Candy," but that it relies on only
one indulgence - if my diet consisted only of steak, I'd probably lose weight
just because my body was lacking other important nutrients. The issue here is
balance, both nutritional and cultural. Our cultural excesses are manifested
in our personal lives. What if they start to kill us? Eating a grab bag of
sugary confections for breakfast, lunch and dinner may be appealing, but it
will never be a proper substitute for a well-balanced meal?

(OF COURSE IT'S A BALANCED DIET!  THEY EAT "BEANS" AND "BEARS"!!!!--ed.)


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec 12 16:12:35 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:12:35 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <F236p23dUSTRkulYj5b00016801@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.081235.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You'll sound as if you belong. Just enjoy the ride, work hard, and treat
them like human beings whose version of  English is nothing to be ashamed
of. Good luck!

PR

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Candace Cool wrote:

> I am going to be teaching soon and I have a very large fear of how I will
> sound to my class with my kentucky accent.  Especially if I leave the state.


From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM  Thu Dec 12 16:22:28 2002
From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:22:28 -0500
Subject: Pronunciation of "googol"
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.112228.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is there a standard pronunciation of the word "googol"? I've seen and heard
GOO.gawl, goo.GAWL, and GOO.gul.

Thanks.

Paul
http://www.wordspy.com/


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec 12 16:23:14 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:23:14 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <20021212141030.81697.qmail@web9708.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.082314.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, James Smith wrote:

> So where does "science" fit?

You mean it's not "sceince"?


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Dec 12 15:34:07 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:34:07 -0500
Subject: Pronunciation of "googol"
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.103407.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

All the people I hear say "GOO guhl" -- that's with a schwa in the
second syllable.

Regards,
David Barnhart


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Thu Dec 12 17:12:14 2002
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:12:14 -0800
Subject: Pronunciation of "googol"
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.091214.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Paul:

> Is there a standard pronunciation of the word "googol"? I've seen and
heard
> GOO.gawl, goo.GAWL, and GOO.gul.

I don't know if this is "standard", but I always thought it was "GOO gul".
Anne G


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 12 17:20:03 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:20:03 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Kolache=20(1896)?=
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.122003.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/11/02 10:15:05 AM, stevekl at PANIX.COM writes:


> > If you want to get technical, Kohlrabi is actually German, not English
> (not
> > "derived from German").
>
I suppose that the old Czech people I knew in my childhood thought of this as
a Czech word, in which case it would have been "derivbed from German" for
them.


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Thu Dec 12 17:20:44 2002
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:20:44 -0800
Subject: Pronunciation of "googol"
In-Reply-To: <000f01c2a201$9e7db260$e6a3f5d1@annehpbrww9plk>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.092044.0800.>

I say Goo-g'l

Vida.
(in the Pacific NW)
-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Anne Gilbert
Sent: December 12, 2002 9:12 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "googol"


Paul:

> Is there a standard pronunciation of the word "googol"? I've seen and
heard
> GOO.gawl, goo.GAWL, and GOO.gul.

I don't know if this is "standard", but I always thought it was "GOO gul".
Anne G


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Thu Dec 12 17:19:43 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:19:43 -0500
Subject: Max Hunter Folk Song Collection
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021211174502.01efb008@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.121943.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes there is. The "correct" past tense for 'dive' is 'went diving' or
'took a dive'.

Beverly Flanigan said:
>There ain't no "correct" past tense for 'dive'!  Pass that on to your boss.
>
>At 03:30 PM 12/11/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>I searched the archives and didn't see this mentioned before. Don't ask how
>>my search went from:
>>
>>the correct past tense for dive
>>to Longfellow's "The Song of Hiawatha"
>>to Johnny Preston's "Running Bear"
>>to an audio database of folk songs sung by people from Missouri, Arkansas
>>and Oklahoma,
>>
>>but ya'll know how the Web sometimes works. Anyway, for anybody who was
>>unaware this was on-line and would like to have a listen:
>>
>>http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/maxhunter/Singer.html
>>
>>My apologies if this is repetitive.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec 12 18:44:24 2002
From: j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:44:24 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.134424.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James Smith wrote:

> So where does "science" fit?

I think the "I before E except..." rule is a rule of thumb for words
where the ie or ei is a digraph.  If the letters are in different
syllables--or were so in the Latin (or other) etymon (as in
"species")--that's a different situation.  Likewise the rule does
not apply to a word like "protein" which, though today usually
pronounced as only two syllables, is etymologically three.  But for
beginning spellers coping mostly with common words like "thief" and
"receive" and "neighbor," it's still a useful rule of thumb so long
as they aren't made to think that it is some sort of absolute
prescription.

For what it's worth, Random House Unabridged Dictionary on CD-ROM
shows 8685 entries containing either "ie" or "ei", of which 73% are
"ie".  Interestingly, that percentage holds (actually increases to
74%) following "c":  400 "cie" entries (from "abortifacient" to
"Waterton-Glacier International Peace Park") vs. 139 entries
containing "cei" (from "absolute ceiling" to "wide receiver").
Those could be studied in detail to sort out the principles
involved.

My own problem in spelling "science" as a child was not with vowels
but with the consonants.  I asked my grade-school teacher how to
spell the word, and she told me to look it up in the dictionary.  I
looked under "si..." and "ci..." and couldn't think of any other
letter that makes an "s" sound, so I had to admit failure.  Then she
tipped me off about the "sc".

Thank goodness I never had to look up "schism"!

James E. Clapp


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 12 19:03:31 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:03:31 -0500
Subject: Nam Prik (1897. 1898); LA TIMES online in NYPL
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.140331.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

LOS ANGELES TIMES

   I was checking the NYPL databases just now, and there was LOS ANGELES TIMES!  I clicked it, and it was Pro Quest!  YES!
   Before you can say "What's date do you have for chiffon pie?" or "When did they first call it 'Oscar'?" or "Can you give me the whole nine yards?", here's the bad news:
   The "Pre-1986" goes back only to 1985.
   But hey, it's there!  And the NYPL subscribes!

---------------------------------------------------------------
NAM PRIK

SIAM ON THE MEINAM
FROM THE GULF TO AYUTHIA
by Maxwell Sommerville
Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company
1897

Pg. 23:  Broths, fish, meat, sweets, fruits, and rice were to be had on demand.  To help this down, or to aid in digesting it, _nam-phrik_, a spicy sauce, consisting of bamboo, fruits, and many condiments, was plentifully served and employed.


FIVE YEARS IN SIAM
FROM 1891 TO 1896
by H. Warington Smyth
in two volumes
London: John Murray
1898

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 89:  _Pla heng_, a dried form of river fish, rivals the "Bombay duck" in delicacy, and is invaluable as a _kep kao_ or addition to the simple rice; _nam prik_, the "Worcester sauce" of the Siamese, is a fishy paste of a pleasingly mild type compared to some of the more virulent varieties of _kapi_ and its oils, so dear to the inhabitants of Indo-China, whether Burman, Chinaman, Malay, or Siamese.

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 320 (GLOSSARY):
_Nam:_  a river, used of waterways, of more importance than the _klong_ or _hue_, but not sufficiently large for the title _Menam_.
(...)
_Pla:_  fish.

---------------------------------------------------------------
SIAMESE COOKERY
by Marie M. Wilson
Rutland, Vermont: Charles E. Tuttle Company
1965

Pg. 13:  Some of these are eaten dipped in vinegar or _nam pla_ (fish sauce), or in egg batter and fried.

Pg. 20:  When a Siamese wishes to say he is hungry, he says, "_Hiu khao_" or "I'm hungry for rice."  When he is eating, he says "_Tan khao_" or "I'm eating rice."

Pg. 55:
Galloping Horses
Ma Ho
Here is a delicious orange salad.

Pg. 68:
Rama Bathing
Phra Ram Long Song

Pg. 86:
Nam Prik Canapes I
   The most popular and commonly-eaten dish in Thailand after rice and fish is a sauce known as _nam prik_.  It is used on rice and fish as well as on raw and cooked vegetables.  It is so exotic and strange to a foreigner that few come to like it.

Pg. 91:
Plump Horses
Ma Uan

---------------------------------------------------------------
JOYS AND SUBTLETIES
SOUTH EAST ASIAN COOKING
by Rosemary Brissenden
New York: Pantheon Books
1970, 1971

Pg. 50:  NASI GORENG (Fried Rice)

Pg. 104:  GULE PAKIS (Vegetable GUle)(Sumatra)

Pg. 106:  GADO-GADO (Cooked Vegetable Salad)

Pg. 222:  TOM YAM KUNG (Shrimp, Crayfish or Lobster Tom Yam)

Pg. 240:  NAM PRIK PAK (Raw Vegetables with Basic Hot Sauce)

Pg. 246:  MI KROB (Crisp Fried Noodles)

Pg. 247:  KAO PAD THAI (Thai Fried Rice)

Pg. 249:  MAH HO (Galloping Horses)

Pg. 250:  KAO THUNG (Rice Crisps)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec 12 19:15:13 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:15:13 -0500
Subject: Thai Food (1970, 1971,
 1978); Maltese Sauce (1959); Gado Gado (1969)
In-Reply-To: <14c.18be84df.2b29eb72@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.141513.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>    It was raining out, so I spent a quiet night (after work) in the Popik
>archives, brousing through the GOURMET index.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>---------------------------------------------
>THAI FOOD
>
>    "Mee Krob" or "Mi Krob" each has over 1,000 Google hits.  Neither spelling
>is in the revised OED(?).  THE OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD, pg. 791, "SOME THAI
>FOOD TERMS," explains that "_mee krob_ are wheat noodles deep-fried and
>coated in sugar syrup as a savoury dish."  WEBSTER'S NEW WORLD DICTIONARY OF
>CULINARY ARTS has:
>
>_mee krob_ (mee krob)  A Thai dish of deep-fried rice sticks, green onions,
>red bell peppers, chives, tofu, cilantro and a sweet-and-sour sauce.
>
Speaking of taboo avoidance ("drunk", "rag", "prik"), I've always
wondered whether diners in Thai restaurants in France order "mee
krob" without a second thought.  Luckily for us, the Great Vowel
Shift has prevented any confusion with our own microbes.

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec 12 19:33:59 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:33:59 -0500
Subject: Pronunciation of "googol"
In-Reply-To: <AOEIILHHOFBBPLHOHKDFIEEBFKAA.vidamorkunas@telus.net>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.143359.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:20 AM -0800 12/12/02, vida morkunas wrote:
>I say Goo-g'l
>
>Vida.
>(in the Pacific NW)

Me too, but I have an alternation with the full vowel for
"googolplex", where the [u] in the first syllable and the [a] in the
second both get secondary stress:

[,gu,gal'plEks]

(...which is, everyone will remember, 1 followed by a googol of
zeros.  A very large number indeed.  This too is defined in Gamow's
_One, Two, Three, Infinity_, or a title approximating that.

larry

P.S.  Actually, I think I've also known myself to use the ['gu,gal]
pronunciation for "google", with the full vowel.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec 12 19:35:03 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:35:03 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021212082250.10731F-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.143503.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:23 AM -0800 12/12/02, Peter Richardson wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, James Smith wrote:
>
>>  So where does "science" fit?
>
>You mean it's not "sceince"?

You mean it's not a homophone of "seance"?


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec 12 20:03:15 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:03:15 -0500
Subject: is Google reliable?
In-Reply-To: <msg57468.thr-a1eb80ee.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.150315.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET,Net writes:
>
>>Google is a very lame tool for lexical research compared to, say, a
>>robust,
>>dynamic corpus of contemporary English.
>
>While I have not a very high opinion of a "straight" google search, it
>is made more useful for general linguistic research in news media by
>using "Google News."  This resource is described in their own words:
>Google News presents information culled from approximately 4,000 news
>sources worldwide and automatically arranged to present the most
>relevant news first. Topics are updated continuously throughout the
>day, so you will see new stories each time you check the page.

In defense of the recently maligned (straight, non-news) Google...I'm
sure Frank, David et al. are right for some searches.  But if you're
trying to track down innovative uses of language by ordinary people
and/or by those writing in a wide variety of (non-news) places,
google.com actually provides better feedback than the news.google.com
site.   In my work on un-nouns (most recently checking out various
antedates for "unmarriage", prompted by a New Yorker talk of the town
piece in the 12/9/02 issue) and on "spitten image", I've used google
to confirm, for example, that (a) "spitten" (both as a participle in
general and in "spitten image" in particular) is alive and well in
various non-standard varieties of English and that (b) "unmarriage",
with meanings ranging from "the state of being in a committed
relationship that isn't a marriage" to a near-synonym for divorce or
separation, has been around since at least the early 1970's.  The
latter information is not available in the OED, AHD4, or through
news.google.com, which in fact brings up one hit for "unmarriage",
that same recent New Yorker piece that prompted my search in the
first place.  So if you find google lame or unworthy for lexical
research, fine; I'll keep it in my bookmarks.

larry

P.S.  It's also quite handy for checking out reanalyses in progress,
in a way that more carefully edited resources (the ones indexed by
news.google or Nexis) aren't


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec 12 20:09:34 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:09:34 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <008b01c2a20e$7e52e980$b345c718@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.120934.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sigh!  O.k., here goes:

But their, weird, either
Foreign, seize and neither,
Leisure, forfeit and height,
Science, abortifacient, [fill in the remaining 397 "cie" entries here]
And Waterton-Glacier International Peace Park
Are exceptions spelled right.

There, that should take care of it! :)

Peter Mc.

--On Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:44 PM -0500 "James E. Clapp"
<j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:

> For what it's worth, Random House Unabridged Dictionary on CD-ROM
> shows 8685 entries containing either "ie" or "ei", of which 73% are
> "ie".  Interestingly, that percentage holds (actually increases to
> 74%) following "c":  400 "cie" entries (from "abortifacient" to
> "Waterton-Glacier International Peace Park") vs. 139 entries
> containing "cei" (from "absolute ceiling" to "wide receiver").
> Those could be studied in detail to sort out the principles
> involved.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec 12 20:52:11 2002
From: j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:52:11 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.155211.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dave Hause wrote:

> A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed one
> word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out the
> spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
> spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
> pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
> research this.

Thom Harrison gave what for me was a very enlightening answer, but
not one intended for a six-year-old.  For the child, this seems like
a good opportunity to reinforce the point that spelling is not just
an arbitrary process; there are principles of sound-spelling
correspondence that are pretty consistent.  The principle here is:
When a word ends with a "k" sound after a "short" vowel, it is
usually spelled "-ck".  This isn't something special about the word
"quick"; it's a general rule you can use to spell lots and lots of
words--even if you've never seen them before.  "Back" and "tack" and
"neck" and "peck" and "lick" and "stick" and "lock" and "sock" and
"luck" and "duck"--if you know the rule, you can write them all.

It is true that other ways of spelling the words might be pronounced
the same, but it's nice to have just one way that you know is almost
always right.  You might see words that don't follow this rule, but
you can learn those as you go along.  In the meantime, if you aren't
sure it's something else, "-ck" is a good guess for any "k" sound
after a short vowel.  (And of course, product names like Kodak
cameras and Nestle's Quik don't count; sometimes companies use a
funny spelling just to get attention.)

This assumes that the child has been introduced to "short" vs.
"long" vowel sounds.  I don't think I was taught phonics until a
little after that, but this child obviously has been introduced to
phonetics and shows an interest in and knack for it (witness the
quoted statement); and since she herself raised the question of
pronunciation, this might be the time to introduce her the "short"
vowel sounds of hat, bet, hit, hot, and hut if she hasn't already
been introduced to the concept.

For the record, it appears that most of the words ending with a
short vowel and "-k" or "-q" are either loanwords or foreign names,
like apparatchnik, kayak, and (in my pronunciation) Iraq.

James E. Clapp


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Dec 12 19:47:19 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:47:19 -0500
Subject: is Google reliable?
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.144719.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

laurence.horn at YALE.EDU,Net writes:
>So if you find google lame or unworthy for lexical
>research, fine; I'll keep it in my bookmarks.

I agree with your choice to keep Google (non-news) in your inventory of
bookmarks.  And you are quite right in your evaluation of "straight"
Google for your work.  I use it too in the research for the Dictionary
Companion.  However, the tradition in modern lexicographical research
of relying upon print media (and their e-versions) is quite
understandable.  The greatest problem facing users of electronically
retrievable resources is the shear volume of hits to wade through.  For
the important neologisms a well-constructed balanced range of
periodical publications used over a long period of time proves
satisfactory.

Regards,
David Barnhart


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec 12 21:09:37 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:09:37 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <00b701c2a220$584d2860$b345c718@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.160937.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:52 PM -0500 12/12/02, James E. Clapp wrote:
>Dave Hause wrote:
>
>>  A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed one
>>  word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out the
>>  spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
>>  spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
>>  pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
>>  research this.
>
>Thom Harrison gave what for me was a very enlightening answer, but
>not one intended for a six-year-old.  For the child, this seems like
>a good opportunity to reinforce the point that spelling is not just
>an arbitrary process; there are principles of sound-spelling
>correspondence that are pretty consistent.  The principle here is:
>When a word ends with a "k" sound after a "short" vowel, it is
>usually spelled "-ck".  This isn't something special about the word
>"quick"; it's a general rule you can use to spell lots and lots of
>words--even if you've never seen them before.  "Back" and "tack" and
>"neck" and "peck" and "lick" and "stick" and "lock" and "sock" and
>"luck" and "duck"--if you know the rule, you can write them all.
>
Including obscenities to be written or spray-painted on walls that
one would certainly want one's six-year-old to spell correctly.

Larry


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Thu Dec 12 21:20:11 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:20:11 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <008b01c2a20e$7e52e980$b345c718@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.162011.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, James E. Clapp wrote:

#My own problem in spelling "science" as a child was not with vowels
#but with the consonants.  I asked my grade-school teacher how to
#spell the word, and she told me to look it up in the dictionary.  I
#looked under "si..." and "ci..." and couldn't think of any other
#letter that makes an "s" sound, so I had to admit failure.  Then she
#tipped me off about the "sc".
#
#Thank goodness I never had to look up "schism"!

The one that drove me bonkers was "phthisic"!

-- Mark A. Mandel


From j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec 12 21:37:22 2002
From: j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:37:22 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.163722.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter, you've given me the best rollicking belly laugh I've had in
months!

But no, that doesn't quite take care of it.  Let's not forget the
2,198 additional entries with "ei" not after "c"--ranging roughly from
"ageist" to "Zeitgeist"! :)

James E. Clapp


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: English spelling origin (OT?)


Sigh!  O.k., here goes:

But their, weird, either
Foreign, seize and neither,
Leisure, forfeit and height,
Science, abortifacient, [fill in the remaining 397 "cie" entries here]
And Waterton-Glacier International Peace Park
Are exceptions spelled right.

There, that should take care of it! :)

Peter Mc.


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec 12 21:45:15 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:45:15 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <351351.1039694973@[10.218.201.115]>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.134515.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fabulous, Peter. It fairly trips off the tongue.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> Sigh!  O.k., here goes:
>
> But their, weird, either
> Foreign, seize and neither,
> Leisure, forfeit and height,
> Science, abortifacient, [fill in the remaining 397 "cie" entries here]
> And Waterton-Glacier International Peace Park
> Are exceptions spelled right.
>
> There, that should take care of it! :)
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> --On Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:44 PM -0500 "James E. Clapp"
> <j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
>
> > For what it's worth, Random House Unabridged Dictionary on CD-ROM
> > shows 8685 entries containing either "ie" or "ei", of which 73% are
> > "ie".  Interestingly, that percentage holds (actually increases to
> > 74%) following "c":  400 "cie" entries (from "abortifacient" to
> > "Waterton-Glacier International Peace Park") vs. 139 entries
> > containing "cei" (from "absolute ceiling" to "wide receiver").
> > Those could be studied in detail to sort out the principles
> > involved.
>
>
>
> ****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu
>


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Thu Dec 12 21:45:26 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:45:26 -0500
Subject: Max Hunter Folk Song Collection
In-Reply-To: <a05200f06ba1e7578c877@[130.132.95.208]>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.164526.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Alice Faber wrote:

#Yes there is. The "correct" past tense for 'dive' is 'went diving' or
#'took a dive'.

Duv.

-- Mark A. Mandel ;-)


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec 12 21:50:50 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:50:50 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212121619420.80032298-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.135050.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> The one that drove me bonkers was "phthisic"!

Oh, that's an easy one: "Th before ph except before -isic.">


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec 12 21:56:33 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:56:33 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <p04320416ba1eab428b82@[130.132.245.190]>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.135633.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, December 12, 2002 4:09 PM -0500 Laurence Horn
<laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:

>> "luck" and "duck"--if you know the rule, you can write them all.
>>
> Including obscenities to be written or spray-painted on walls that
> one would certainly want one's six-year-old to spell correctly.

You should have been in my first-grade class when the teacher got an
ill-advised rhyming game going!

Peter Mc.

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec 12 22:18:25 2002
From: j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:18:25 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.171825.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter Richardson wrote:

> Oh, that's an easy one: "Th before ph except before -isic."

Another great laugh!  We've got to get you and Peter McGraw in
charge of curriculum development for the "no child left behind"
program.

James E. Clapp


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec 12 22:35:04 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:35:04 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <014301c2a226$a7e5afe0$b345c718@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.143504.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, December 12, 2002 4:37 PM -0500 "James E. Clapp"
<j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:

> But no, that doesn't quite take care of it.  Let's not forget the
> 2,198 additional entries with "ei" not after "c"--ranging roughly from
> "ageist" to "Zeitgeist"! :)

I wonder if those 2,198 entries include a favorite of mine: "Titleist" (a
brand of golf equipment, apparently).  Always brings me up short when I see
it on bumper stickers.  --PMc


****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Dec 12 22:41:53 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:41:53 -0500
Subject: Thai Food (1970, 1971,
 1978); Maltese Sauce (1959); Gado Gado (1969)
In-Reply-To: <p04320404ba1e8fff23c4@[130.132.245.190]>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.174153.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Speaking of taboo avoidance ("drunk", "rag", "prik"), I've always
>wondered whether diners in Thai restaurants in France order "mee
>krob" without a second thought.  Luckily for us, the Great Vowel
>Shift has prevented any confusion with our own microbes.

The final "b" will be more like "p" in Thai (as in German), I think. [But I
may be wrong, as I've forgotten most of what little Thai I ever knew.]

In Thai, a man/woman often appends "krap"/"ka" at the end of an utterance
for 'politeness' or so: e.g., Thai greeting "sawatdi" will be "sawatdi
krap" from a man, "sawatdi ka" from a woman. I've seen somebody (a
non-Thai-speaker obviously) represent his impression of spoken Thai (spoken
by a man) as something like "crop crap crop crop crap". Actually this Thai
"krap" seems (to me) to rhyme with English "cop" [no "caughp"/"cop" merger
here] or almost with "cup".

When Googling for Thai items, note that there is often "l" for "r", and
also consonant clusters tend to lose their "r"s and "l"s: thus occasionally
"mi klob" for "mi krob", often "Chao Phaya" for "Chao Phraya" (the river),
occasionally "nam pa" for "nam pla" [oops, I forgot to check for this in my
recent Google search, but it turns out there are no additional hits in my
contexts], often "falang" for "farang" (= "white person"/"Westerner" or =
"guava"), etc. I don't know whether these changes are considered dialectal
or simply erroneous/sloppy. Also note "kh" versus "k", etc., and "v" versus
"w", and "ph" sometimes used for "f".

-- Doug Wilson


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Thu Dec 12 22:42:05 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:42:05 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <a05010403ba1e34a4a63b@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.174205.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis,

Dishcloth is English in SE Michigan, or at least it was half a century ago.
But that's also when I first learned the word "hillbilly".  It was applied
to
people from Ohio who were moving their housetrailers into the outskirts of
Waltz.  Put that in your pip and smoke it.

Herb

Stephani,

I think Beverly is neither a prescriptivist nor a nit-picker (unless
I have completely misjudged her character). She may have actually had
some phonology in mind (the vowel of "cloth"?), not trivial spelling
stuff, which I am sure we all give less than a hoot about, except
when spelling "errors" reflect dialect variants.

I am a Kentuckian (well, Louisvillian) and find "washrag" (actually
"warshrag") very common. On the other hand, "warshcloth" seems quite
good to me too, but I'm taking bets it came later in my linguistic
development.

BUT - I cannot say "dishcloth." It's not English. "Dishrag" is it.

Back to the point. Since this was a "little sister," we may simply be
witnessing the death of "-rag" and the victory of "-cloth." The
mainstream pejorative senses of "rag" could have a lot to do with
this (as the late Harold Allen argued in AS long ago about
participial "drunk" being replaced by "drank," a process which he
claimed was at least in part due to contamination by inebriated sense
of "drunk").

dInIs

PS: Isn't there some Transatlantic word like "flannel" for this? Has
that held its ground?

PPS: Some people on this list have questioned my authority when I
make such pronouncements as "It's not English."

1) I am the President (until January) of the American Dialect Society.

2) If that's not enough, I recently did an acoustic (LPC) analysis of
my vowel system. Every one of my steady state F1-F2 readings lies
exactly on top of the male formant values given in Peterson and
Barney (1952). (OK, I didn't look at any /E/s before nasals, and I
didn't check the glides of diphthongs.)



>OH Please!!   I think we all know Deidra meant "washcloths".  I hope we
have
>more to do with our time than to come in here and check for mistakes in
>spelling and grammar.  If we could refrain from being 'know it alls' more
>people would feel comfortable responding to messages on-line, and we would
not
>be missing out on their input.  Put that in your pip and smoke it (I
>misspelled
>pipe just for you Beverly).
>
>Deidra makes a good point.  I think it's interesting that the phrase "warsh
>rag" was alien to her sister.  Especially considering the fact that she
lives
>in Kentucky, where it is pretty common.

Stephani Hardin
--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Thu Dec 12 22:42:10 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:42:10 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <a05010401ba1e32501a2b@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.174210.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

[dEn at s]

And you haven't shared any of those with us?  This core (Michigan) NLB feels
slighted.

Herb


Candace,

I am from Louisville, and I have taught and studied my entire
professional life at Wisconsin, Ohio State, SUNY, and now Michigan
State. I have an enormous set of put-downs, one-liners, quick
come-backs, and even detailed arguments (the last the least
effective) to use against NLBs (Northern Language Bigots). Stay in
touch if you need me.

dInIs




I am going to be teaching soon and I have a very large fear of how I will
sound to my class with my kentucky accent.  Especially if I leave the state.

Candace Cool


--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec 12 23:19:12 2002
From: j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:19:12 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.181912.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter McGraw wrote:

> I wonder if those 2,198 entries include a favorite of mine: "Titleist" (a
> brand of golf equipment, apparently).  Always brings me up short when I see
> it on bumper stickers.  --PMc

No; RHUD on CD-ROM has "titlist" but no "titleist."  The other dictionaries I
have at hand concur.

James E. Clapp


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Dec 12 23:33:19 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:33:19 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <msg57481.thr-3702f8fb.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.183319.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> >BUT - I cannot say "dishcloth." It's not English. "Dishrag" is it.
>
>While I cannot say these are my preferences, they were so for my father
>(born in Missouri with some probable connections to Kentucky, and
>raised in Kansas.  I know both of these terms from my father's speech
>but prefer dishcloth to dishrag ....

Vance Randolph: a Missouri (Ozarks) story:

<<One time there was a young farmer had some folks come over to his place
for supper.

... the baby come a-crawling out on the floor, and you could see where he
has shit all over himself. ... the man spoke right up. "Marthy," says he,
"fetch the dishrag, and wipe that young-un's ass. If there's one thing I
can't stand, it's nastiness!"

... They didn't go there for supper no more ....>>

I grew up (in Detroit) with "dishrag" ... and "washrag" ... and "dustrag"
... and even "do-rag" (for the [hair]do). [My folks would not have endorsed
"snot-rag" = "handkerchief" however.]

But no "dishrag" for me any more, since I read this story.

-- Doug Wilson


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Dec 13 00:34:09 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:34:09 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <00b701c2a220$584d2860$b345c718@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.193409.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 James E. Clapp writes:
>....... there are principles of sound-spelling
>correspondence that are pretty consistent.  The principle here is:
>When a word ends with a "k" sound after a "short" vowel, it is
>usually spelled "-ck".  This isn't something special about the word
>"quick"; it's a general rule you can use to spell lots and lots of
>words--even if you've never seen them before.  "Back" and "tack" and
>"neck" and "peck" and "lick" and "stick" and "lock" and "sock" and
>"luck" and "duck"--if you know the rule, you can write them all.
~~~~~~~~~
Um, well there are all those words  with the adjectival suffix /-ic/as well
as "magic" & "logic," &c. They may have had a / k/ in the eighteenth
century, but no longer.
AM


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Dec 13 02:54:38 2002
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:54:38 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.215438.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have been trying to figure out what <OT> means in this thread - all I think
of is Old Testament.

Bethany


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Fri Dec 13 03:35:08 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 22:35:08 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <3E032A4E@webmail.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.223508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Off topic?

Herb

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Bethany K. Dumas
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:55 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: English spelling origin (OT?)


I have been trying to figure out what <OT> means in this thread - all I
think
of is Old Testament.

Bethany


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Fri Dec 13 03:51:48 2002
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:51:48 -0600
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.215148.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Herb was right.  I'm fairly new here and didn't want to offend by posting a
question which might be considered off topic.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTK.EDU>


I have been trying to figure out what <OT> means in this thread - all I
think
of is Old Testament.

Bethany


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Fri Dec 13 03:55:26 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 22:55:26 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <0b0201c2a25a$f72ef000$cebf22d0@dwhause>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.225526.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Dave Hause wrote:

>Herb was right.  I'm fairly new here and didn't want to offend by posting a
>question which might be considered off topic.

Thanks, Herb and Dave.

Bethany


From j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Dec 13 04:49:58 2002
From: j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:49:58 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.234958.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

sagehen wrote:

> Um, well there are all those words  with the adjectival suffix /-ic/as well
> as "magic" & "logic," &c. They may have had a / k/ in the eighteenth
> century, but no longer.

Oh, those.  I meant to say:

        C before K, except after I
        in multisyllabic words like phthalic and phthisic.

I'm still working on the rhyme...  and all the other exceptions involving a
final c (like "maniac").  I'm afraid I was focusing on the specific question
of -ck vs. -k and overlooked the problem of -ck vs. -c.  Still, for
monosyllables at the level of a six-year-old's spelling lessons, "ck" for "k"
sound after short vowel is a pretty good rule of thumb.  I'll have to leave
it to Thom Harrison to sort out the details of when and why we use -c
instead.

Thanks for pointing this out.

James E. Clapp


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Dec 13 07:04:33 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:04:33 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <00b701c2a220$584d2860$b345c718@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.230433.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>...For the child, this seems like
>a good opportunity to reinforce the point that spelling is not just
>an arbitrary process; there are principles of sound-spelling
>correspondence that are pretty consistent.  The principle here is:
>When a word ends with a "k" sound after a "short" vowel, it is
>usually spelled "-ck".  This isn't something special about the word
>"quick"; it's a general rule you can use to spell lots and lots of
>words--even if you've never seen them before.  "Back" and "tack" and
>"neck" and "peck" and "lick" and "stick" and "lock" and "sock" and
>"luck" and "duck"--if you know the rule, you can write them all.

Good response, Jim.  And it reminds me of when my sister was just
learning to write/spell and ended up with pickqunickqu (for picnic)
because she didn't know which final consonant to use.

Rima


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 13 10:01:15 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 05:01:15 EST
Subject: Gado Gado (1963) and Mee Krob (1973)
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.050115.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Here are the top number of country recipes on www.recipesource.com
(formerly SOAR at Cal-Berkeley), with many other countries left out after
Thai:

Chinese  899 recipes
Mexican  806 recipes
Italian 663 recipes
Indian & Pakistani  607 recipes
Cajun  549 recipes
Greece  409 recipes
Thai 354 recipes
German  234 recipes
French 110 recipes

   Is that right?  French is all the way down there?
   For what it's worth, Thai is an impressive number seven.   You'd think
that would at least get "Pad Thai" into dictionaries, but I don't have a say
in this.
   Here are two recipes found in SUNSET magazine, which is known for its
cooking columns for western American readers.


May 1963, SUNSET
Pg. 192:
The menu comes from a family from Bandung now living in California.  They
have served it to their Western friends with great success. (...)
_Sate Ajam_
(Grilled Chicken on Skewers)
_Gado Gado_
(Salad)
_Soto Ajam_
(Chicken and Vegetable Soup)
_Kerupuk_
(Puffed Shrimp Chips)
_Nazi_
(Rice)
_Lapis_
(Coconut Dessert)

Pg. 194:
The salad most popular in Indonesia is called Gado Gado.  It is made in
layers of cooked qand raw vegetables topped with some of the Peanut Sauce
above.
_GADO GADO_
   2 quarts water
   2 2/3 teaspoons salt
   1 cup bean sprouts, stringy ends removed
   1/2 medium-sized head of cabbage. leaves cut in 2-inch squares
   1 1/2 cups green beans in 1 1/2-inch pieces (or 1 package 9 oz., frozen
cut green beans)
   1 large potato, peeled and in thin, halved slices
   3/4 cup Peanut Sauce (recipe above)
   2 hard cooked eggs, in quarter-inch slices
   In a large kettle, bring the salted water to a boil; add bean sprouts and
cook just until tender crisp, about 3 minutes; remove with a strainer or
slotted spoon and drain.  Chill in the refrigerator.
   in the same water, cook the cabbage until tender (about 4 minutes), remove
from water, drain and refrigerate.  Cook green beans in same water just until
tender (8 to 10 minutes); remove, drain.  Reserve vegetable stock for the
soup.  Allow vegetables to cool.
   Layer vegetables on the platter in this order: Cabbage, diced potatoes,
cucumbers, grean beans, and bean sprouts.  Pour over Peanut Sauce.  Arrange
hard cooked egg slices over top.  Refrigerate a few minutes before serving.
Serves 4 to 6.


March 1973, SUNSET
Pg. 164, col. 1:
   _Almost everybody_
   _likes her crunchy_
   _Thai noodles_
_Literally translated,_ _Mee Krob_ means crunchy noodles, an apt description
of this fried noodle dish from Thailand.  But to many Thais there's something
more in the name--the word _krob_ sounds like the crackly noise you make when
eating the brittle, puffy noodles.  The textures and contrasts of flavors
make this a rather exotic dish, but most people like it the first time they
taste it.  Begin by frying the rice noodles in hot oil.  It's a dramatic
procedure: Just a small handful swell so quickly in hot oil they look like
they're going to burst.  Mix them into a rich, slightly sweet and sour sauce
laced with pork, chicken and

Col. 2 photo caption of Thai woman cooking noodles:
_Crunchy Thai noodles_ to mix with pork, chicken, and shrimp in a rich sauce.

Pg. 166, col. 2:
shrimp.  Then serve the noodles with crisp fresh bean sprouts, lengths of
green onions, and cool lime wedges.
(...)
You will need to shop at an Oriental market for the rice noodles, yellow bean
sauce, and fish soy.  The noodles are often called rice sticks, but may also
be called long rice, _py mei fun_, or _mai fun_.
(...) (Col. 2--ed.)
_Thai Crunchy Noodles_ (Mee Krob)
   About 4 cups salad oil
   1/4 pound rice noodles (rice sticks)
   1/4 cup _each_ sugar, lime juice, yellow bean sauce, and catsup
   2 tablespoons fish soy or soy sauce
   4 cloves garlic, minced or mashed
   1 small onion, finely chopped
   1/2 pound lean boneless pork, cut into strips 1/8 inch thick, 1/2 inch
wide, by 2 inches long
   1 chicken breast (about 1 lb.) skinned and boned, cut into strips 1/4 inch
thick, 1/2 by 2 inches
   1/2 pound medium-sized raw shrimp, shelled and deveined
   1/2 pound bean sprouts, washed and drained
   4 green onions, cut into 4-inch lengths
   1 lime, cut in wedges
   Pour the salad oil to about 1 inch deep in a wok (steady the wok in a ring
stand) or in a 12-inch frying pan; heat the oil to 375 degress, then drop in
a msall handful of the noodles at a time.  As they puff and expand, push them
down into the oil, then turn the entire mass over.  When all the noodles are
puffy and stop crackling, about 15 seconds, remove and drain.  Skim any bits
of noodles out of oil before frying the next handful.  Keep warm in a 200
degree oven until serving or let cool and package airtight up to one day
before serving.
   To reheat fried noodles, place uncovered, in a 200 degree oven for about
10 minutes while cooking the meat and sauce.
   In a small bowl stir together the sugar, lime juice, bean sauce, catsup,
and soy; set aside.  Have all remaining ingredients chopped and measured
before beginning to cook.
   Just before serving, heat 2 tablespoons salad oil in the wok or 12-inch
frying pan over high heat until hot.  Add the garlic and onion; cook,
stirring constantly, for 1 minute.  Add the pork and continue stirring: cook
about  3 minutes.  Add the chicken and shrimp, stirring constantly; cook 4
minutes or until shrimp firms and turns pink.  Stir in the sauce mixture and
cook 2 minutes.  Remove from heat and let cool 3 minutes.
   Gently fold in fried noodles a portion at a time, until all the noodles
are lightly coated with the sauce.  To serve, mound noodles in the center of
a large platter and surround with bean sprouts.  Garnish with green onions
and lime wedges.  Makes 4 servings.

(Compare OED's Italian noodle entries with its Thai noodle non-entries...This
is too complicated for me.  I'll just marry the beautiful Thai woman in the
photo---ed.)


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Dec 13 10:15:25 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 05:15:25 -0500
Subject: FW: is Google reliable?
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.051525.0500.>

Re what Larry H says below on this recent thread, yes, i use Google daily,
and just in the way that he and David B say.  All I meant was (as David
said, too) that it is not a profound and important source for
lexicographical research.  It is not unuseful (that un- for you, Larry), but
it is secondary at best.

At Oxford I had access to Brit Natl Corpus, a huge online citation file
(OED's, much of it from US sources), and miscellaneous enormous, searchable
text files from Ling Data Consortium.  That is the kind of stuff that works
best for lexos.  BNC is a bit marginal for American purposes, but it is
quite valuable still, despite its age and Britishness.  Also useful, for
historical purposes, is the stuff that Barry Popik and Fred Shapiro
regularly use -- JSTOR, NYT full-text, Making of America, etc.  They have
proven the value of these, time and again, on this list.

Whatever happened to the effort to build a US corpus a la BNC (but bigger)?
There was an American National Corpus effort going -- status, anyone?

Frank Abate


>abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET,Net writes:
>
>>Google is a very lame tool for lexical research compared to, say, a
>>robust,
>>dynamic corpus of contemporary English.
>
>While I have not a very high opinion of a "straight" google search, it
>is made more useful for general linguistic research in news media by
>using "Google News."  This resource is described in their own words:
>Google News presents information culled from approximately 4,000 news
>sources worldwide and automatically arranged to present the most
>relevant news first. Topics are updated continuously throughout the
>day, so you will see new stories each time you check the page.

In defense of the recently maligned (straight, non-news) Google...I'm
sure Frank, David et al. are right for some searches.  But if you're
trying to track down innovative uses of language by ordinary people
and/or by those writing in a wide variety of (non-news) places,
google.com actually provides better feedback than the news.google.com
site.   In my work on un-nouns (most recently checking out various
antedates for "unmarriage", prompted by a New Yorker talk of the town
piece in the 12/9/02 issue) and on "spitten image", I've used google
to confirm, for example, that (a) "spitten" (both as a participle in
general and in "spitten image" in particular) is alive and well in
various non-standard varieties of English and that (b) "unmarriage",
with meanings ranging from "the state of being in a committed
relationship that isn't a marriage" to a near-synonym for divorce or
separation, has been around since at least the early 1970's.  The
latter information is not available in the OED, AHD4, or through
news.google.com, which in fact brings up one hit for "unmarriage",
that same recent New Yorker piece that prompted my search in the
first place.  So if you find google lame or unworthy for lexical
research, fine; I'll keep it in my bookmarks.

larry

P.S.  It's also quite handy for checking out reanalyses in progress,
in a way that more carefully edited resources (the ones indexed by
news.google or Nexis) aren't


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Dec 13 12:26:03 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:26:03 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <GCEEKFLPBKGFLHGNDPJKOEIECAAA.hstahlke@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.072603.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>They are for insiders only (lest you get prepared for them).

dInIs



>[dEn at s]
>
>And you haven't shared any of those with us?  This core (Michigan) NLB feels
>slighted.
>
>Herb
>
>
>Candace,
>
>I am from Louisville, and I have taught and studied my entire
>professional life at Wisconsin, Ohio State, SUNY, and now Michigan
>State. I have an enormous set of put-downs, one-liners, quick
>come-backs, and even detailed arguments (the last the least
>effective) to use against NLBs (Northern Language Bigots). Stay in
>touch if you need me.
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
>
>I am going to be teaching soon and I have a very large fear of how I will
>sound to my class with my kentucky accent.  Especially if I leave the state.
>
>Candace Cool
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>       Asian & African Languages
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>phone: (517) 353-9290

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Dec 13 12:29:00 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:29:00 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <0b0201c2a25a$f72ef000$cebf22d0@dwhause>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.072900.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ya'll will have to get used to the fact that on linguistics lists
'OT' means 'Optimality Theory.'

dInIs


Herb was right.  I'm fairly new here and didn't want to offend by posting a
question which might be considered off topic.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTK.EDU>


I have been trying to figure out what <OT> means in this thread - all I
think
of is Old Testament.

Bethany

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 13 15:56:00 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:56:00 -0500
Subject: FW: is Google reliable?
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAMEJKDGAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.105600.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:15 AM -0500 12/13/02, Frank Abate wrote:
>Re what Larry H says below on this recent thread, yes, i use Google daily,
>and just in the way that he and David B say.  All I meant was (as David
>said, too) that it is not a profound and important source for
>lexicographical research.  It is not unuseful (that un- for you, Larry), but
>it is secondary at best.
>

but earlier, he had written:

>  >
>>>Google is a very lame tool for lexical research compared to, say, a
>  >>robust, dynamic corpus of contemporary English.
>  >

I see know that our apparent disagreement was largely over goals and
terminology.  What I do is research on lexical semantics and
pragmatics, which is a different enterprise from that of doing
lexicography per se.  In his original posting, Frank was deprecating
(ordinary) google as a tool for LEXICAL RESEARCH, which I take to
include what I do.  In the current post, he refers more specifically
to LEXICOGRAPHICAL RESEARCH, which is a more specific kettle of fish
(although a kettle in which I too like to angle from time to time).

So the disagreement is amicably resolved, and thanks to this thread I
now know about the very useful (to me) search engine at
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search, so it's been a
constructive disagreement as these things go.

Larry


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Dec 13 16:21:47 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:21:47 -0800
Subject: new word
In-Reply-To: <p04320401ba1fb0fd266a@[130.132.245.217]>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.082147.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There was a very nice neologism on NPR this morning, from a reporter
talking about the Cardinal's resignation in Boston. Something about a
difficult "concantenation" of events that led to the event. Good
combination of concatenation and incantation, a lesson for us all. Maybe.
Or perhaps I didn't have my ears buckled on straight yet; it was early,
after all.

PR


From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG  Fri Dec 13 17:35:49 2002
From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:35:49 -0400
Subject: FW: is Google reliable?
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAMEJKDGAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.133549.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 12/13/2002 06:15, Frank Abate wrote the following:

>Whatever happened to the effort to build a US corpus a la BNC (but bigger)?
>There was an American National Corpus effort going -- status, anyone?

They're about to put out about 10 million words, it seems.  See
<http://americannationalcorpus.org/>:

"The first release of 10 million words of the ANC corpus is scheduled for
mid-fall. The corpus will be annotated for part of speech and include a
"base set" of tools for search and extraction, a preliminary version of the
access tools that will provided with the final corpus. A password-protected
web interface for testing the tools on a sub-set of the data is expected to
be accessible to ANC Consortium members at the end of this month.

"Acquisition of texts is proceeding, although more slowly than planned. The
first release of the ANC will contain whatever texts are in hand, and will
therefore not be balanced for genre (as originally stipulated in ANC
documentation). So far, we have acquired about 2 million words of spoken
data (the LDC Switchboard corpus and a portion of the CallHome corpus), 1.5
million words of previously un-released newspaper data from the New York
Times, a few hundred thousand words of "ephemera" (pamphlets, newletters,
etc.), and several novels published by Oxford University Press USA. We
expect to receive substantially more data from the contributing consortium
members to include in the first release, including not only fiction and
journals but also various Berlitz Travel Guides (Langenscheidt) and
technical manuals from Microsoft and IBM. We are also negotiating to
acquire research papers from the Association for Computational Linguistics
and articles from the IBM Research Journal."

Cheers,
Scott

_____________________________________________________________
Scott Sadowsky  --  Spanish-English / English-Spanish Translator

sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org · sadowsky at bigfoot.com
http://www.spanishtranslator.org
_____________________________________________________________
"La soberanía del hablante nativo no tiene más límites que los de su
  sistema mental real, sin que tengan que importarle en absoluto las
  opiniones de las presuntas 'autoridades en la materia' empeñadas
  en cocear la gramaticalidad con normativismos de su propia cosecha."
   -- Carlos-Peregrín Otero


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Dec 13 16:54:23 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:54:23 -0500
Subject: Not-quite homographs
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.115423.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry's use of " deprecating" reminds me of a form of common confusion that
seems to have moved from the page to speech, for example: the substitution
of "deprecatory" for "depreciatory,"  especially in the expression
"self-depreciatory."
Is there a technical term for this sort of confusion?  Malapropism doesn't
seem to cover  it.
A. Murie


From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST  Fri Dec 13 16:47:13 2002
From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 17:47:13 +0100
Subject: Six and ten
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.174713.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A translator's problem:

A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has bought a dish antenna because he thinks that the Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has paid 4000 $ for the dish and is deceived. He says:
"I spent four grand for the dish.
And what do I get? Six and ten!"

My question is: What does he mean by "six and ten"?

Jan Ivarsson, TransEdit
Translator, Subtitler
jan.ivarsson at transedit.st
http://www.transedit.st


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 13 17:04:34 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:04:34 -0500
Subject: Six and ten
In-Reply-To: <000701c2a2c7$4d643680$c8ded0d9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.120434.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:47 PM +0100 12/13/02, Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote:
>A translator's problem:
>
>A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has bought a dish antenna
>because he thinks that the Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has
>paid 4000 $ for the dish and is deceived. He says:
>"I spent four grand for the dish.
>And what do I get? Six and ten!"
>
>My question is: What does he mean by "six and ten"?
>
Presumably the best record the Bears could finish with.  After ending
up 13-3 (with a lot of fortunate bouncings of the ball their way)
last year, they've suffered a lot of injuries this year and haven't
really taken to playing in Champaign-Urbana while their home stadium
(Soldiers' Field in Chicago) is being rehabbed), and are currently
3-10, extremely unlikely to finish even at the lowly 6-10.  It's not
an expression, just a disappointing record the Bears are almost
certain not to reach.

Larry


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 13 17:29:21 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:29:21 -0500
Subject: Six and ten
In-Reply-To: <p04320404ba1fc2f15e35@[130.132.245.217]>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.122921.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn said:
>At 5:47 PM +0100 12/13/02, Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote:
>>A translator's problem:
>>
>>A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has bought a dish antenna
>>because he thinks that the Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has
>>paid 4000 $ for the dish and is deceived. He says:
>>"I spent four grand for the dish.
>>And what do I get? Six and ten!"
>>
>>My question is: What does he mean by "six and ten"?
>>
>Presumably the best record the Bears could finish with.  After ending
>up 13-3 (with a lot of fortunate bouncings of the ball their way)
>last year, they've suffered a lot of injuries this year and haven't
>really taken to playing in Champaign-Urbana while their home stadium
>(Soldiers' Field in Chicago) is being rehabbed), and are currently
>3-10, extremely unlikely to finish even at the lowly 6-10.  It's not
>an expression, just a disappointing record the Bears are almost
>certain not to reach.

For the benefit of folks not familiar with how the NFL works, teams
play a 16 game season. So, "six and ten" would be a losing record,
one that won't get the team even a sniff at the playoffs. In terms of
translation, a reference to the losing record, while less colorful
than the original, might get the point across better than a literal
translation would.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Dec 13 17:41:28 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:41:28 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021212180313.04a5aec0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.124128.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Perfect!  But Randolph's story has a particular resonance for me (and it
probably did for him too), because in my childhood in Minnesota our term
for 'shit' was in fact 'dish'.  But we used old catalogs, not rags. . . .

Was this use of 'dish' in the vocabularies of any of the rest of you oldtimers?

At 06:33 PM 12/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>> >BUT - I cannot say "dishcloth." It's not English. "Dishrag" is it.
>>
>>While I cannot say these are my preferences, they were so for my father
>>(born in Missouri with some probable connections to Kentucky, and
>>raised in Kansas.  I know both of these terms from my father's speech
>>but prefer dishcloth to dishrag ....
>
>Vance Randolph: a Missouri (Ozarks) story:
>
><<One time there was a young farmer had some folks come over to his place
>for supper.
>
>.... the baby come a-crawling out on the floor, and you could see where he
>has shit all over himself. ... the man spoke right up. "Marthy," says he,
>"fetch the dishrag, and wipe that young-un's ass. If there's one thing I
>can't stand, it's nastiness!"
>
>.... They didn't go there for supper no more ....>>
>
>I grew up (in Detroit) with "dishrag" ... and "washrag" ... and "dustrag"
>.... and even "do-rag" (for the [hair]do). [My folks would not have endorsed
>"snot-rag" = "handkerchief" however.]
>
>But no "dishrag" for me any more, since I read this story.
>
>-- Doug Wilson


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Dec 13 17:57:14 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:57:14 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.125714.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Footnote:  I still can't say "dish the dirt."
----------
Perfect!  But Randolph's story has a particular resonance for me (and it
probably did for him too), because in my childhood in Minnesota our term
for 'shit' was in fact 'dish'.  But we used old catalogs, not rags. . . .

Was this use of 'dish' in the vocabularies of any of the rest of you oldtimers?

At 06:33 PM 12/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>> >BUT - I cannot say "dishcloth." It's not English. "Dishrag" is it.
>>
>>While I cannot say these are my preferences, they were so for my father
>>(born in Missouri with some probable connections to Kentucky, and
>>raised in Kansas.  I know both of these terms from my father's speech
>>but prefer dishcloth to dishrag ....
>
>Vance Randolph: a Missouri (Ozarks) story:
>
><<One time there was a young farmer had some folks come over to his place
>for supper.
>
>.... the baby come a-crawling out on the floor, and you could see where he
>has shit all over himself. ... the man spoke right up. "Marthy," says he,
>"fetch the dishrag, and wipe that young-un's ass. If there's one thing I
>can't stand, it's nastiness!"
>
>.... They didn't go there for supper no more ....>>
>
>I grew up (in Detroit) with "dishrag" ... and "washrag" ... and "dustrag"
>.... and even "do-rag" (for the [hair]do). [My folks would not have endorsed
>"snot-rag" = "handkerchief" however.]
>
>But no "dishrag" for me any more, since I read this story.
>
>-- Doug Wilson


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Dec 13 18:45:16 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:45:16 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021213125638.01bd24a8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.134516.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Footnote:  I still can't say "dish the dirt."
>----------
>Perfect!  But Randolph's story has a particular resonance for me (and it
>probably did for him too), because in my childhood in Minnesota our term
>for 'shit' was in fact 'dish'.  But we used old catalogs, not rags. . . .
>
>Was this use of 'dish' in the vocabularies of any of the rest of you
>oldtimers?
 ~~~~~~~~~
I can't remember ever hearing this. I'm wondering has it tainted other uses
of "dish," too?  Was it thought of as a euphemism?  So many euphemisms
retain the stinks of their illegitimate employment when back in their old
jobs.
A. Murie


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Dec 13 19:02:27 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:02:27 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <l03130302ba1fd8fdde9d@[12.107.141.241]>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.140227.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Love that "stinks."  In fact, I've never brought up our old 'dish" usage in
polite society, since I've always assumed it was narrowly regional and
maybe even just my family's euphemism (but why 'dish'?).  But now I suspect
this was Randolph's meaning in Missouri, too, so it may be more widespread
than I thought?

At 01:45 PM 12/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >Footnote:  I still can't say "dish the dirt."
> >----------
> >Perfect!  But Randolph's story has a particular resonance for me (and it
> >probably did for him too), because in my childhood in Minnesota our term
> >for 'shit' was in fact 'dish'.  But we used old catalogs, not rags. . . .
> >
> >Was this use of 'dish' in the vocabularies of any of the rest of you
> >oldtimers?
>  ~~~~~~~~~
>I can't remember ever hearing this. I'm wondering has it tainted other uses
>of "dish," too?  Was it thought of as a euphemism?  So many euphemisms
>retain the stinks of their illegitimate employment when back in their old
>jobs.
>A. Murie


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Fri Dec 13 19:18:55 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:18:55 -0600
Subject: Six and ten
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.131855.0600.>

Laurence Horn wrote:

>
> ...while their home stadium (Soldiers' Field in Chicago) is being
> rehabbed),

Oddly, it's Soldier Field, not Soldiers' Field. Maybe someone knows the
story behind this, anyone?


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Dec 13 19:32:12 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:32:12 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021213135802.01bcb218@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.143212.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In fact, I've never brought up our old 'dish" usage in
>polite society, since I've always assumed it was narrowly regional and
>maybe even just my family's euphemism (but why 'dish'?).

Back-slang, I think: "shit" > "tish", > "dish" because it's recognizable.
I've never encountered this one myself, but sometimes the parents might
encode things this way so the kiddies won't learn impolite words.

>But now I suspect this was Randolph's meaning in Missouri, too, so it may
>be more widespread than I thought?

Randolph is quoting a story told in 1951 by someone who claims he heard it
ca. 1935. There is no suggestion of this double-entendre in the story as
published, so IF it was there "way back when" I believe it was lost and
went right by Randolph. The central point of the story was the irony in
"can't stand nastiness", as I read it. In the story as published the dinner
guests look askance at the dishes.

-- Doug Wilson


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Fri Dec 13 20:40:24 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:40:24 -0800
Subject: Six and ten
In-Reply-To: <000701c2a2c7$4d643680$c8ded0d9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.124024.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would bet local channels six and ten.

Ed

--- Jan Ivarsson TransEdit <jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST>
wrote:
> A translator's problem:
>
> A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has
> bought a dish antenna because he thinks that the
> Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has paid 4000 $
> for the dish and is deceived. He says:
> "I spent four grand for the dish.
> And what do I get? Six and ten!"
>
> My question is: What does he mean by "six and ten"?
>
> Jan Ivarsson, TransEdit
> Translator, Subtitler
> jan.ivarsson at transedit.st
> http://www.transedit.st


__________________________________________________
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From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Dec 13 20:07:57 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:07:57 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.150757.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

flanigan at OHIOU.EDU,Net writes:

>Was this use of 'dish' in the vocabularies of any of the rest of you
>oldtimers?

Nope!  But, I was several hundred miles south and east.

Regards,
David Barnhart


From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET  Fri Dec 13 21:21:32 2002
From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:21:32 -0500
Subject: Off List Request
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.162132.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Could you ask your language gurus about this word? It appears in very
old deeds as a landmark ("to the rattlebox on the Tennessee River"). A
man I talked with yesterday thought it might have been a box hung on a
rope that would carry someone across the river. a technique later used
by linemen.  I always envisioned a noise maker that might call the
ferryman. But, we could both be wrong."


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Fri Dec 13 21:37:36 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:37:36 -0500
Subject: Rattlebox -OT
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021213133344.0416a5d8@66.36.96.30>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.163736.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's a poisonous plant isn't it? My recollection is rattleweed, but it
could be the same thing, no? Maybe he's talking about a particularly large
crop of the stuff. Just a VERY wild guess.


Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Dec 13 21:40:10 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:40:10 -0500
Subject: Rattlebox
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.164010.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        This may refer to the rattlebox or Chinese wisteria (sesbania punicea), a small tree about 12 to 15 feet in height.  Trees were often used as landmarks in old deeds, though I suppose a tall, long-lived tree like an oak would have been a better choice.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: DAK [mailto:buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET]
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 4:22 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Off List Request


"Could you ask your language gurus about this word? It appears in very
old deeds as a landmark ("to the rattlebox on the Tennessee River"). A
man I talked with yesterday thought it might have been a box hung on a
rope that would carry someone across the river. a technique later used
by linemen.  I always envisioned a noise maker that might call the
ferryman. But, we could both be wrong."


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 13 23:49:01 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 18:49:01 EST
Subject: Rattlebox
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.184901.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The new volume of DARE has a whole column on "rattlebox." The word designates
ten different kinds of plants: "any of various plants whose seed vessels
rattle when dry." All ten are explained in detail. - Allan Metcalf


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Dec 14 02:12:44 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 21:12:44 -0500
Subject: Fwd(2): NYU meeting of ILA 12/14
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.211244.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> International Linguistic Association

>

>  Rudolf P. Gaudio

>  Department of anthropology, purchase college, SUNY

>

>  THE POLITICAL ECONOMY OF CASUAL CONVERSATION,

>  or  WHY WE PAY TO TALK AT STARBUCKS

>
> This paper examines how so-called casual conversational practices in
>the

> contemporary United States are constrained and structured in terms of
>where,

> when, how, and with whom people choose and are able to interact
>socially.

> The focus of my analysis is the middle-class sociolinguistic practice
>of

> "coffeetalk"-a term I have borrowed from U.S. popular culture to
>signal the

> naturalized conflation of conversation with the commercialized
>consumption

> of coffee, space and other commodities.  My discussion of coffeetalk

> involves a number of research methods, including: critical analyses of
>the

> marketing rhetoric of coffeehouse corporations; informal interviews
>with

> coffeehouse owners, employees and patrons; and my own observations as a

> "native" participant in coffeetalk and other commodified modes of

> middle-class social interaction.  By situating coffeetalk within its

> spatial, temporal and social contexts, my analysis challenges the
>claim put

> forth by some sociolinguists that ("ordinary") conversation is a

> "naturally-occurring" phenomenon that is ontologically prior to other
>modes

> of talk.  My aim is to demonstrate how seemingly ordinary
>conversational

> practices are implicated in the political, economic and
>cultural-ideological

> processes of global capitalism, as symbolized by the increasingly
>ubiquitous

> Starbucks Coffee Company.

>

> Saturday, December 14, 2002  11 am



> New York University (room number will be posted in lobby)

>

> 100 Washington Square East (Northeast Corner of Washington Square Park)

>

> PLEASE POST

>
>Johanna Woltjer
>jwoltjer at earthlink.net


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Sat Dec 14 03:43:09 2002
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 21:43:09 -0600
Subject: Soldier Field Was Re: Six and ten
In-Reply-To: <p04320404ba1fc2f15e35@[130.132.245.217]>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.214309.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>while their home stadium (Soldiers' Field in Chicago) is being rehabbed),

Rehabbed?! I'm afraid ruined is more like it. The extension of the
bleachers above the old rim looks, as more than critic has put it,
like a toilet bowl.

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sat Dec 14 05:08:17 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:08:17 -0500
Subject: Jobs in Lit and Languages Down 20 Percent
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.000817.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/14/education/14PROF.html

"Listings for academic jobs in literature and languages — a key
barometer of staff positions in colleges and universities — are off 20
percent, the Modern Language Association of America said. It is the
first decline since 1995 and the largest decline in about a decade."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 14 11:07:51 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 06:07:51 EST
Subject: OED's latest update
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.060751.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Attached is the OED's latest update.
   I guess "lebkuchen" and "Pad Thai" are both no "boxercise."

Barry Popik


Subj:   OED Online December update
Date:   12/14/2002 5:09:40 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:onlinesubscriptions at oup.co.uk">onlinesubscriptions at oup.co.uk</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:bapopik at aol.com">bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)



Dear Barry Popik

We are pleased to announce that the latest quarterly update to OED Online is
now available at www.oed.com.

EXPLORE OVER 2200 NEW AND REVISED WORDS...
The latest alphabetical range to be revised is MONO to MOTRIX  (see
http://www.oed.com/public/help/Dict/Quarterly/0212.htm for details).  This
update throws several hats into the ring, including the MORIAN (a
16th-century brimmed helmet), the MORTIER (a cap of office worn by various
French officials), the MONTERA (the black cap worn by a bullfighter) - not to
be confused with a MONTERO (a hunter's cap with ear flaps) - and of course
the MORTARBOARD.

CHECK OUT THE LATEST BUZZ WORDS...
The new OED Online update also covers a wide range of new vocabulary -
everything from FAMILY CREDIT to TAX-AND-SPEND, from BOXERCISE to
SNOWBOARDING, from DOWNSHIFTING to UPSIZING, and from BOOKMARK (in the
computer sense) to SCREENSHOT, SCREEN SAVER and SCROLL BAR.
The complete list of out-of-sequence new entries is available at
http://www.oed.com/public/help/Dict/Quarterly/0212a.htm.

QUICK REFERENCE GUIDE...
Our new revised Quick Reference Guide is now available in PDF format at
http://www.oed.com/public/pdfs/Quickref.pdf.

GET THE MOST OUT OF OED ONLINE...
The comprehensive and user-friendly help text available at
http://dictionary.oed.com/help/ demonstrates the many ways in which you can
use OED Online.  A step-by-step tour is available at http://www.oed.com/tour.
 In addition, we have a Powerpoint demonstration showing the key features of
the service. Let me know if you would like us to send you this demo.

NEW IN THE OED ARCHIVES...
Facsimiles of the three editions of the Appeal to the English-Speaking and
English-Reading Public by James Murray (the founding editor of the OED) have
been added to the archive section of the OED website, together with the first
ever call for contributions from American readers by George P. Marsh
(http://www.oed.com/public/archive/Requests/Requests_intro.htm).  You can
explore the full range of archive material at
http://www.oed.com/public/archive/.

NEW ISSUE OF OED NEWS...
The December issue of OED News is now available at
http://www.oed.com/public/news/0212.htm and can be downloaded as a PDF file.
 Highlights include articles on the expanding coverage of Canadian English,
and the way in which the Internet has transformed the work of OED
lexicographers.
In this month's Appeal, we are asking if anyone can help us find earlier
examples of the use of a variety of words and phrases - for example, did
anyone suffer from a "dead leg" before 1987, and could a dirty child be
described as a "mucky pup" before 1984?  If you can help, please e-mail
oed3 at oup.co.uk.

If you have any queries about OED Online, please don't hesitate to contact
support at oed.com.

Regards
Susanna Lob
Sales and Marketing Director, Online Products


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 14 11:28:51 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 06:28:51 EST
Subject: Going Postal & Going Coastal, Dream Team in OED
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.062851.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   After a quick browse:

GOING POSTAL--OED finally added this piece of slang, years after it's become,
as WIRED would say, "expired."  The first citation appears to be from Gareth
Branwyn's column in WIRED.
   I've also heard "going coastal" in basketball.  It's when a player grabs a
rebound at one end, dribbles to the other end, and goes "coast-to-coast" for
the score.

DREAM TEAM--OED added 1935, from the NEW YORK TIMES.  I think I recently
posted 1934.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sat Dec 14 12:36:50 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 07:36:50 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Word of the Year for Elementary Students
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.073650.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Considering the recent thread about teaching language in schools beyond
parts of speech, I thought everyone might want to cheer this teacher
on, and perhaps answer her questions as well.

Début du message réexpédié :

> De: Roberta524 at aol.com
> Date: Fri 13 Dec 2002  19:36:05 America/New_York
> À: gbarrett at americandialect.org
> Objet: No Subject
>
> Hello!
>
> Last year I read when your organization chose a word of the year.  I
> thought
> it would be a great lesson with my fifth graders.  Somehow I got a
> list of
> the words of the entire century - was that from your organization as
> well?  I
> somehow lost the source of it.  I think I had read that the
> organization went
> back through history to choose words.  Was that your organization?  If
> so,
> while go through the list, I noticed "Ms." for 1952.  Also, "D-Day"
> for 1918.
>  Can you tell me why since we normally associates those two words with
> much
> later decades.
>
> Oh, last year I did the lesson after you had chosen the word.  This
> year I am
> doing it beforehand to see if anyone picks the word your group
> chooses.  A
> lot of kids chose "Iraq" although I don't think you have ever chosen a
> place
> that is a proper noun.  One of my colleagues thinks it will be DVD
> while I
> think it will be "weapons of mass destruction."
>
> Anyway, if you could answer my questions, I appreciate it.  Thank you.
>
> Roberta


From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET  Sat Dec 14 14:09:47 2002
From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 09:09:47 -0500
Subject: RATTLEBOX
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.090947.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks to all who replied, but we're obviously going to have
to try harder <!>.  ( The question is from a historian who also
writes a weekly nature column.)

==========================================
You're right! I can say pretty definitively that the reference
was not to a plant, especially not to an exotic species.
-----Original Message-----
From: buchmann at bellsouth.net
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: rattlebox / 2
I'M NOT CERTAIN ALL THIS
PLANT LIFE IS WHAT YOU
NEED. I'LL KEEP LOOKING.
-----Original Message-----
> Could you ask your language gurus about this word? It appears in very
> old deeds as a landmark ("to the rattlebox on the Tennessee River"). A
> man I talked with yesterday thought it might have been a box hung on a
> rope that would carry someone across the river. a technique later used
> by linemen.  I always envisioned a noise maker that might call the
> ferryman. But, we could both be wrong.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 14 14:33:03 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 09:33:03 -0500
Subject: Barry Popik in Safire Column
In-Reply-To: <B7E4F564-0F60-11D7-A97D-0003931D8244@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.093303.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

William Safire's "On Language" column in tomorrow's New York Times
Magazine mentions Barry Popik as discovering the earliest known usage of
"G.O.P."  Congratulations to Barry for this well-earned recognition.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 14 15:28:42 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:28:42 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <msg57490.thr-3702f8fb.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.102842.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:07 PM -0500 12/13/02, Barnhart wrote:
>flanigan at OHIOU.EDU,Net writes:
>
>>Was this use of 'dish' in the vocabularies of any of the rest of you
>>oldtimers?
>
>Nope!  But, I was several hundred miles south and east.
>
Nor for me, in New York (if I count as an oldtimer).

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 14 16:09:52 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:09:52 -0500
Subject: Six and ten
In-Reply-To: <20021213204024.6646.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.110952.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:40 PM -0800 12/13/02, Ed Keer wrote:
>I would bet local channels six and ten.
>
>Ed


I'll take the bet.  I'm sure it was a reference to the Bears'
projected best-possible (or projected) record.  Note that this is
plausibly a written rendering of a spoken statement; the "six and
ten" may be a misleading representation for what would more normally
be transcribed as "6-10".

Larry

>
>--- Jan Ivarsson TransEdit <jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST>
>wrote:
>>  A translator's problem:
>>
>>  A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has
>>  bought a dish antenna because he thinks that the
>>  Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has paid 4000 $
>>  for the dish and is deceived. He says:
>>  "I spent four grand for the dish.
>>  And what do I get? Six and ten!"
>>
>>  My question is: What does he mean by "six and ten"?
>>
>>  Jan Ivarsson, TransEdit
>>  Translator, Subtitler
>>  jan.ivarsson at transedit.st
>>  http://www.transedit.st
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 14 16:22:00 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:22:00 -0500
Subject: New (to me) folk etymology:  type-o
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.112200.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From a message to the forensic linguistics e-mail list today:
=============
All,
in my response to Roger, I don't know how the exclamation marks (!)
got in there. I assume they are type-o's but they are not anywhere on
the keyboard near where I was typing.

Part of the problem with this study was that they!took 18 criteria:

but the results were pro!mising.
=============
A check on google (actually,
http://www.google.com/advanced.group.search) turned up this from
alt.rock-n-roll.metal.death:

=============
Usually the music a band creates is important to me, but sometimes it is
downplayed by sleeves with a lot of type-o's. It just seems to show a
side of carelessness. For example- In Flames- Colony. A whole lot of
them! What are other metal albums with a ridiculous amount of type-o's?
==============

The search is complicated by the prevalence of hits for the blood
type O, but I'm sure there's a passel more out there, including a
number from glass-house-dwelling purists upset at the guilty
parties...


================
From: George Smaragdis
Subject: TYPE O's
Newsgroups: rec.music.beatles
Date: 1997/02/04

I beg you check your mail before you send it.Why do you insist on
writing crap like "cont doit" when you can simply type "Can't do
it"?That's what's elementary for.Get off it!


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 14 16:21:30 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:21:30 EST
Subject: Word of the Year for Elementary Students
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.112130.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Roberta,
  Thanks for your message! Here is the explanation.
  In 1990 the American Dialect Society began choosing words of the year,
looking back on the year gone by. You can find a complete list of our choices
at our website,

http://americandialect.org/woty.html

We will choose words for 2002 at our meeting Januray 3, 2003. Look for an
announcement on our website soon after that.

For earlier years, you were able to find words because of a book I wrote with
David Barnhart, now available in paperback:

America in So Many Words by Allan Metcalf and David Barnhart. Boston:
Houghton Mifflin, 1999. ISBN 0-618-00270-7.

This goes back to the first English-speaking settlements in North America and
has a word for almost every year since then. It not only tells the word but
tells its story, and tells why we chose that word for that year. You can
order the book from your local bookstore or an online bookseller.

If you go to amazon.com, you can see the full index, which lists all our
choices of words of the year from the 1600s to the end of the 20th century.

- Allan Metcalf


From k_sirah at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 14 17:04:06 2002
From: k_sirah at HOTMAIL.COM (Casey :-))
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 17:04:06 +0000
Subject: Please Remove me from the Listserv
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.170406.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20021214/82b2d9df/attachment.html>

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 14 18:17:06 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:17:06 -0500
Subject: Going Postal (Feb. 1993 WIRED?)
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.131706.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Do I read the OED entry correctly?  "Going Postal" is from a February 1993 edition of WIRED?
   The NYPL record seems to indicate that WIRED began in May 1993.  I'm re-checking it right now.  Perhaps a WIRED person is online here.
   Also, the infamous shootings by Jarvis were in April 1993.
   The online LOS ANGLES TIMES, in a year-end roundup on 31 December 1993, pg. 1, refers to "going postal."


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sat Dec 14 18:33:06 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:33:06 -0500
Subject: Going Postal (Feb. 1993 WIRED?)
In-Reply-To: <346A026B.01BA9379.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.133306.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2002 at 01:17:06PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Do I read the OED entry correctly?  "Going Postal" is from a
>February 1993 edition of WIRED?

No, it's February 1994; we found this out too late to get the
correction in.

> The NYPL record seems to indicate that WIRED began in May
>1993.  I'm re-checking it right now.  Perhaps a WIRED person
>is online here.

No, the first issue of Wired is just called the "Premier
Issue," with no indication of date within 1993 in the issue
itself, but it was later referred to as March/April. (You
can see this at wired.com, for example.)

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Dec 14 19:26:33 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:26:33 -0700
Subject: Exposure to language --> "dish"
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.122633.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The discussion of "dish" (which I've never heard either, but then in South
Texas we lived in a different world) reminded me of a question my mother
asked recently when she had to provide a "stool sample" to the doctor:
"Why stool?" Because the toilet is like a sort of stool one sits on? I
assume that this term is not regionally limited.

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 14 20:12:02 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:12:02 -0500
Subject: Going Postal (Feb. 1993 WIRED?)
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.151202.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   So the LOS ANGELES TIMES of 31 December 1993 is the first citation?

Barry "Rodney Dangerfield" Popik


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 14 20:31:56 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:31:56 -0500
Subject: First English citation of "autism" (August 1912)
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.153156.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   This is important to me.  I have an autistic nephew.
   OED's first English citation of "autism" is the AMERICAN JOURNAL of INSANITY, Vol. LXIX, pg. 879.  A date of 1912 is given.
   I re-checked this:

AMERICAN JOURNAL OF INSANITY
VOLUME 69
Number 5
April 1913
Pg. 873:
   AUTISTIC THINKING*
   By PROF. E. BLEULER
   Director Psychiatric Cinic, University of Zurich
(...)
*Address delivered at the opening exercises of the Henry Phipps Psychiatric Clinic, The Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, Md., April 16-18, 1913.

   Oops!
   There is no doubt that Bleurer coined "autism," but we have a wrong date here.
   I looked in the NEW YORK STATE HOSPITALS BULLETIN, February 1912, pg. 481, "AFFECTIVITY, SUGGESTIBILITY, PARANOIA" by E. Bleuler and Charles Ricksher, but "autism" wasn't found in his very long article.
   However--

N. Y. STATE HOSPITALS BULLETIN
Vol. V, No. 2
August 1912
Pg. 238:
   REVIEW OF BLEULER'S SCHIZOPHRENIA.*
   By DR. AUGUST HOCH
(...)
*"Handbuch der Psychiatrie."  Herausgegeben von Professor Dr. G. Aschaffenburg.  Spezieller Teil, 4 Abteilung, 1 Halfte.  "Dementia Praecox oder Gruppe der Schizophrenien." Leipzig und Wien: Franz Deuticke, 1911.
Pg. 240:
   He also mentions abnormalities of the affective life, particularly a more or less extensive loss of interest, and that which he calls by a very good term "autism," that is, the tendency to turn away from the outside world, or that which we have called shut-in tendencies.  He also mentions other features, but these are the most important.
Pg. 253:
   A difficult subject is _autism_.  By autism Bleuler means that which we have called the shut-in tendency, the more or less complete shutting out of the environment, or, at any rate, all that which does not correspond to the wishes.  It may be so marked that the patients even shut all sensory impressions, close their eyes and ears, make their body as small as possible by crouching.  Bleuler regards this autism as a secondary phenomenon, and looks upon it as one of the results of his association disorder, whereas the autistic thinking is the day dreaming, the thinking without reference to reality.  This autistic thinking flourishes in schizophrenia.  The normal person includes in his logical operations more or less everything of his experience, past and present, which has a bearing, irrespective of it emotional value.  Bleuler thinks that the schizophrenic defect in logic makes the exclusion of a great many external and internal facts possible, and thus gives sway to a tendency which we all have, namely, to live in fancies which suit us, (Pg. 254) something which we indulge in but do not allow to influence our conduct, but which in the schizophrenic assumes the value of reality.
Pg. 256:
   _Automatisms_ are put on the same level as hallucinations, that is to say, are looked upon as intrusions into consciousness of split-off complexes, whereas mannerisms are essentially the same as Freud's _Symptomhandlungen_.


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Dec 14 20:43:29 2002
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:43:29 -0500
Subject: Going Postal (Feb. 1993 WIRED?)
In-Reply-To: <3B298E83.6F46C9B1.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.154329.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It was definitely in significant (online) usage by the time it made it
into the Jargon Watch column. Unfortunately, magazines (being "dead
tree," not "way new," journalism) are produced months ahead of time. I
actually received the first submission of the term in early Nov. of
'93. Here's that message (FWIW):


Subj:  going  postal                         93-11-07 07:32:01 EST
From:  KenwardB
Posted on: America Online

Heard this from COLRuth.... "going postal", of course, just totally
losing it and/or killing everything you see...

Kenward "not yet postal" B


If memory serves, KenwardB and COLRuth were participants on the bOING
bOING conference I moderated on AOL (bOING bOING was a geek culture
print zine for which I was Senior Editor) . The term was in fairly
common usage in the bb Conf. (and related conferences: Mondo 2000 and
the virtual reality conf.).

Gareth


From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU  Sat Dec 14 20:45:14 2002
From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 22:45:14 +0200
Subject: Going Postal (Feb. 1993 WIRED?)
In-Reply-To: <20021214183306.GA23543@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.224514.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An interesting piece of word trivia about the first issue of Wired -
the word 'Internet' only showed up once in the premier issue, and it
was in a fake e-mail address in Nicholas  Negroponte's column. He
signed it with the e-mail address nicholas at internet, which is not a
valid e-mail address. Kind of interesting for a magazine that would
go on to become synonymous with the culture of the Internet boom.

Philip Trauring

At 1:33 PM -0500 12/14/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Sat, Dec 14, 2002 at 01:17:06PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>>  Do I read the OED entry correctly?  "Going Postal" is from a
>>February 1993 edition of WIRED?
>
>No, it's February 1994; we found this out too late to get the
>correction in.
>
>>  The NYPL record seems to indicate that WIRED began in May
>>1993.  I'm re-checking it right now.  Perhaps a WIRED person
>>is online here.
>
>No, the first issue of Wired is just called the "Premier
>Issue," with no indication of date within 1993 in the issue
>itself, but it was later referred to as March/April. (You
>can see this at wired.com, for example.)
>
>Jesse Sheidlower
>OED


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 14 22:28:44 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 17:28:44 -0500
Subject: Going Postal (Feb. 1993 WIRED?)
In-Reply-To: <20021214183306.GA23543@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.172844.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 14, 2002 at 01:17:06PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> > Do I read the OED entry correctly?  "Going Postal" is from a
> >February 1993 edition of WIRED?
>
> No, it's February 1994; we found this out too late to get the
> correction in.

OK, then the real earliest usage is likely the following:

1993 _St. Petersburg Times_ 17 Dec. (Nexis)  The symposium was sponsored
by the U.S. Postal Service, which has seen so many outbursts that in some
circles excessive stress is known as "going postal."

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Dec 15 01:01:59 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:01:59 -0500
Subject: Tomorrow's Safire "On Language" column
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.200159.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nice to see the credit for Barry.   I did notice one typo (or, if you
prefer, type-o) just afterward, a missing comma ("Barry Popik, an
etymologist has found..."), but (slightly) more substantively,
there's a bit of an overstatement earlier in the column.  Safire
draws the useful distinction between true acronyms and initialisms,
but overstates the case in describing the lead player of his column,
"G.O.P./GOP", as 'universally pronounced gee-oh-pee--by its
initials--and never as the word "gop", rhyming with "cop".'  This
claim immediately brought to mind Cole Porter's "You're the Top",
from _Anything Goes_, which I just confirmed includes the following
observations:

[BILLY]
You're a boom,
You're the dam at Boulder,
You're the moon,
Over Mae West's shoulder,
I'm the nominee of the G.O.P.

[RENO]
Or GOP!

[BILLY]
But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
You're the top!

So on at least this one occasion, albeit with poetic license, "GOP"
does indeed rhyme with "top", if not with "cop".

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Dec 15 01:14:26 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:14:26 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language --> "dish"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212141223180.14561-100000@bast.u.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.201426.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>The discussion of "dish" (which I've never heard either, but then in South
>Texas we lived in a different world) reminded me of a question my mother
>asked recently when she had to provide a "stool sample" to the doctor:
>"Why stool?" Because the toilet is like a sort of stool one sits on?

Essentially, yes, according to the OED:
STOOL
5a)  "a seat enclosing a chamber utensil; a commode; more explicitly
stool of ease. Also, a privy."
5b) "in phrases meaning 'the place of evacuation', now (without the)
the action of evacuating the bowels" (e.g. "straining at stool")
5c)  "the action of evacuating the bowels; an act of discharging fæces"
5d)  "a discharge of fæcal matter of a specified colour, consistency,
etc.; the matter discharged"

Larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec 15 01:26:49 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:26:49 -0500
Subject: Namphrik and Ngapee (1874)
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.202649.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE LAND OF THE WHITE ELEPHANT:
TRAVELS, ADVENTURES AND DISCOVERIES IN BURMA, SIAM, CAMBODIE, AND COCHIN-CHINA
by Frank Vincent
New York:  Harper and Brothers
1874

   I read the 1884 book.  It has a 70-page supplement.  I'm sure the 1874 book is the same thing without the supplement, but I didn't have time to request it.
   OED has an 1854 "ngapee" under its entry for "balachong."  I don't know what the revised OED has planned for this "N" entry.  "Ngapee" is from Burma.


Pg. 15:  The condiment _ngapee_, for which there is a very great demand, is made of preserved fish, fish which has arrived at that epicurean stage termed "high;" it is a sort of paste which mixes with rice like the Indian sauce, _chutnee_.

Pg. 112:  We took a _chota hazree_, a little breakfast,...

Pg. 126:  ...a _prachadi_, sacred spire;...
(OED doesn't have "prachadi"?  I'm seeing it a lot in these books.  It's an architecture term--ed.)

Pg. 135:  All classes in Siam use a sauce called _namphrik_, which differes from the Burmese fish condiment _ngapee_, in that a greater variety of articles are employed in its composition; it also mixes with rice like the Indian _chutnee_, though it (Pg. 136--ed.) approximates more in appearance and flavour to this paste than does the Burmese _ngapee_.  The Siamese sauce is prepared, when all ingredients are at hand, "by bruising a quantity of red pepper in a mortar, to which are added _kapi_ (paste of shrimps and prawns), black pepper, garlic, and onions.  These being thoroughly mixed, a small quantity of brine and citron-juice is added.  Ginger, tamarinds, and gourd seeds are also employed."  That the _namphrik_ is "one of the most appetite-exciting condiments" I know myself by experience; it is also, though very hot and "high," a savoury and toothsome addition to the ordinary curry of simple meat, rice and gravy.

Pg. 267:  From the heads of the largest variety fish-oil is made, and from their bodies the condiment so highly prized by the Siamese, and styled by them _namphrik_.


(O.T. MISC.--I leave for a very long holiday trip to Kenya and Tanzania on Friday.  It's still on...I'll probably make my last Library of Congress trip of this year on Monday, when the NYPL is closed.  If you want anything, ask now--ed.)


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Dec 15 05:18:51 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 22:18:51 -0700
Subject: Exposure to language --> "dish"
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.221851.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry,

        Thanks for the confirmation. You can add this to your list of
transferred meanings, if you don't have it there already.

        Rudy

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:14:26 -0500
From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Exposure to language --> "dish"

>The discussion of "dish" (which I've never heard either, but then in South
>Texas we lived in a different world) reminded me of a question my mother
>asked recently when she had to provide a "stool sample" to the doctor:
>"Why stool?" Because the toilet is like a sort of stool one sits on?

Essentially, yes, according to the OED:
STOOL
5a)  "a seat enclosing a chamber utensil; a commode; more explicitly
stool of ease. Also, a privy."
5b) "in phrases meaning 'the place of evacuation', now (without the)
the action of evacuating the bowels" (e.g. "straining at stool")
5c)  "the action of evacuating the bowels; an act of discharging f�ces"
5d)  "a discharge of f�cal matter of a specified colour, consistency,
etc.; the matter discharged"

Larry

------------------------------


From sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM  Sun Dec 15 07:13:30 2002
From: sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM (Chuck Borsos)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:13:30 -0800
Subject: First English citation of "autism" (August 1912)
In-Reply-To: <199EEAB4.133F108E.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.231330.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The contemporary usage of autism can be traced back to the
descriptions of Leo Kanner and Hans Asperger in the 1940's.  This
usage of autism is distinguished from Bleuler's usage, (although it
seems to have been derived from Bleuler).

Quoting Uta Firth, Autism: Explaining the Enigma, pg.7:

    "Any treatment of the topic of childhood Autism must start with
the pioneers Leo Kanner and Hans Asperger who, independently of each
other, first published accounts of this disorder.  These
publications, Kanner's in 1943 and Asperger's in 1944, contained
detailed case descriptions and also offered the first theoretical
attempts to explain the disorder.  Both authorities believed that
there was present from birth a fundamental disturbance which gave
rise to highly characteristic problems.
    It seems a remarkable coincidence that both chose the word
'autistic' in order to characterize the nature of the underlying
disturbance.  In fact, it is not really a coincidence, since the
label had already been introduced by the eminent psychiatrist Ernst
Bleuler in 1911.  It originally referred to a basic disturbance in
schizophrenia (another term coined by Bleuler),namely the narrowing
of relationships to people and to the outside world, a narrowing so
extreme that it seemed to exclude everything except the person's own
self.  This narrowing could be described as a withdrawal from the
fabric of social life into the self.  Hence the words 'autistic' and
'autism', from the Greek word autos meaning 'self'.  Today they are
applied almost exclusively to the developmental disorder that we here
call Autism, with a capital A.  I prefer to use Autism rather than
'early infantile autism' or 'childhood autism', terms which imply
some contrast to 'adult autism', and may wrongly suggest that one can
grow out of it."

So if Firth is correct on the date of Bleuler's German coinage, Barry
Popik's English citation comes just a year later.  And my memory is a
bit fuzzy here, but as I recall, the early literature on Autism
(developmental disorder) often called it 'childhood autism' to
distinguish it from the description of the schizophrenic state (as
suggested by Firth above).

Incidentally, I believe that Kanner and Asperger (as well as Rett,
who described Rett Syndrome, which is a degenerative condition
similar in some ways to Autism), were all Viennese trained, though
Kanner worked in the United States (at John Hopkins if I remember
right).

Chuck Borsos
Santa Cruz, CA
--


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Dec 15 16:09:36 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 11:09:36 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language --> "dish"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212142216360.26484-100000@bast.u.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.110936.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:18 PM -0700 12/14/02, Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>Larry,
>
>         Thanks for the confirmation. You can add this to your list of
>transferred meanings, if you don't have it there already.
>
>         Rudy
>
Definitely.   A nice addition to the club.  Seems to happen a lot
with euphemistic substitution, for obvious reasons.

L


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Sun Dec 15 17:57:12 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:57:12 -0800
Subject: Six and ten
In-Reply-To: <p04320405ba210771767b@[130.132.245.174]>
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.095712.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ah, looks like I'm out some money. Perhaps I vcan get
it back when the Iggles win the Superbowl...

Ed

--- Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
> At 12:40 PM -0800 12/13/02, Ed Keer wrote:
> >I would bet local channels six and ten.
> >
> >Ed
>
>
> I'll take the bet.  I'm sure it was a reference to
> the Bears'
> projected best-possible (or projected) record.  Note
> that this is
> plausibly a written rendering of a spoken statement;
> the "six and
> ten" may be a misleading representation for what
> would more normally
> be transcribed as "6-10".
>
> Larry
>
> >
> >--- Jan Ivarsson TransEdit
> <jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST>
> >wrote:
> >>  A translator's problem:
> >>
> >>  A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has
> >>  bought a dish antenna because he thinks that the
> >>  Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has paid
> 4000 $
> >>  for the dish and is deceived. He says:
> >>  "I spent four grand for the dish.
> >>  And what do I get? Six and ten!"
> >>
> >>  My question is: What does he mean by "six and
> ten"?
> >>
> >>  Jan Ivarsson, TransEdit
> >>  Translator, Subtitler
> >>  jan.ivarsson at transedit.st
> >>  http://www.transedit.st
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec 15 19:12:15 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:12:15 EST
Subject: Western Sandwich (1924); Singapore Sling (1930); Veal Oscar,
 Orloff
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.141215.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   A short roundup of some stuff I have here,

WESTERN SANDWICH
   28 January 1924, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. XX2:
   "A Western sandwich," said the customer.
   "A WES-TERN!" shouted the counterman, through a hole in the wall behind
him.
(DARE?--ed.)

SINGAPORE SLING
   6 April 1930, WASHINGTON POST, pg. S11:
   ,,,and mixed drinks from "flips of all kinds" through Singapore slings and
St. Luke's rickeys to "high balls of all kinds."

GRASSHOPPER PIE
   9 May 1963, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 43.
(Recipe only--ed.)

CARPETBAG STEAK
   1 December 1966, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 78.
(Recipe in Craig Claiborne story about Australia--ed.)

VEAL ORLOFF
   19 March 1964, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 36:
   One of Mrs. Darr's most widely praised dishes is a version of veal Orloff,
or braised veal with mushroom sauce.

VEAL OSCAR
   12 September 1971, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 19 (GIMBELS ad):
   8th floor--Tuesday, see Chef Armais Nording of New York's Scandia
Restaurant prepare Fillet of Veal Oscar.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Dec 15 19:18:08 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:18:08 -0600
Subject: Barry Popik in Safire Column
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.131808.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I'm delighted to see mention of Barry Popik in today's "On
Language" column by William Safire; the recognition is indeed
well-deserved.

    For those who might be interested in pursuing the early history of
"G.O.P." further, here's the bibliographical reference which Mr.
Safire consulted:
Barry Popik and Gerald Cohen; "Pushing the Date of G.O.P. (Grand Old
Party) Back By One Year,To 1883)." in: _Studies in Slang, Part VI_
(edited by Gerald Leonard Cohen and Barry Popik), Frankfurt a.M.:
Peter Lang, 1999, pp.63-71.

    The earliest (Dec. 1, 1883) attestation of G.O.P. was located by Barry.


Gerald Cohen



>At 9:33 AM -0500 12/14/02, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>William Safire's "On Language" column in tomorrow's New York Times
>Magazine mentions Barry Popik as discovering the earliest known usage of
>"G.O.P."  Congratulations to Barry for this well-earned recognition.
>
>Fred Shapiro



[excerpt from Safire column]:

>Because I intend to keep using G.O.P. in this space, here
>is its etymology (and you'd better not forget it, because I
>won't repeat it). The earliest recorded use of the
>unabbreviated, capitalized phrase was in The Cincinnati
>Commercial in 1876. (Soon after, Britain's prime minister,
>William Gladstone, was being called the Grand Old Man,
>initialized to G.O.M.) Barry Popik, an etymologist has
>found the earliest use so far in a Dec. 1, 1883, Washington
>weekly called The Hatchet, referring to a book that was ''a
>work of most rare cunning and of the utmost importance to
>the G.O.P.''


From msacks at WORLD.STD.COM  Sun Dec 15 20:07:06 2002
From: msacks at WORLD.STD.COM (Marc Sacks)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:07:06 -0500
Subject: mentor/mentee
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.150706.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've heard it. I don't like it, though, like Peter, I can certainly see
where it came from. But of course, going back further, there was nobody
named Less in Homer, so the analogy is limited.

Marc Sacks
msacks at world.std.com

Peter Richardson wrote:

>Has anyone heard _mentee_? The pattern is obvious (cf. lessor/lessee), but
>I wonder about the specific form. (Personally, I like manatee.)
>
>Thanks.
>
>Peter R.
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec 15 21:32:59 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 16:32:59 EST
Subject: Daddy Rock Me (1919); Convection Oven (1946) Brandy; Jalapeno
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.163259.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Another random roundup, as I clean my desk here and look for my "oyster
crackers" and figure out if estimated taxes are due December 16th or Janaury
15th.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MAN/DADDY ROCK ME (ROCK & ROLL)

   The November 2002 COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY was "MATERIAL FOR THE STUDY OF
_ROCK AND ROLL_."  There is the Trixie Smith song, "My Man Rocks Me (With One
Steady Roll)," which I think is 1922 or 1923.
   Of possible interest for an earlier (1919) sexual "rock" use is this, in
the NYPL and available digitally:

Call #  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cM.C.+(Greenwich+Village+follies%2C+1919)/cm+c+greenwich+village+follies+1919/-5,-1,0,E/2browse">M.C. (Greenwich Village follies, 1919)</A>
Author  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aSloane%2C+A.+Baldwin+(Alfred+Baldwin)%2C+1872-1926./asloane+a+baldwin+alfred+baldwin+1872-1926/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Sloane, A. Baldwin (Alfred Baldwin), 1872-1926.</A>
Title   <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/tGreenwich+Village+follies+of+1919.+I+want+a+daddy+who+will+rock+me+to+sleep.+Vocal+score/tgreenwich+village+follies+of+1919+i+want+a+daddy+who+will+rock+me+to+sleep+vocal+score/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Greenwich Village follies of 1919. I want a daddy who will rock me to
sleep. Vocal score</A>
    I want a daddy who will rock me to sleep / lyric by Philip Bartholomae &
John Murray Anderson ; music by A. Baldwin Sloane.
Imprint New York : m. Witmark, c1919.


Click on the following to:  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/XI+want+a+daddy+who+will+rock%26l=%26m=%26SORT=D%26s=%26p=%26x=%26Da=%26Db=%26searchscope=1/XI+want+a+daddy+who+will+rock%26l=%26m=%26SORT=D%26s=%26p=%26x=%26Da=%26Db=%26searchscope=1/1,1,1,B/l856%26FF=XI+want+a+daddy+who+will+rock%261,,0,1,0">View digitized images</A>

LOCATION    CALL #  STATUS
  PerfArts-Music     M.C. (Greenwich Village follies, 1919)
Location    PerfArts-Music
Edition Operatic ed.
Descript    1 vocal score (5 p.) : ill. ; 32 cm.
Series  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/tTreasures+of+the+American+Performing+Arts%2C+1875-1923/ttreasures+of+the+american+performing+arts+1875-1923/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Treasures of the American Performing Arts, 1875-1923</A>
Music # 7355 M. Witmark
    16019-4 M. Witmark
Note    For voice and piano.
    Caption title.
    "The Bohemians (Inc.) Present The Greenwich Village Follies"--Cover.
    Also available in electronic form, digitized by The New York Public
Library.
Topics  Music
Subject <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/dRevues+--+Excerpts+--+Vocal+scores+with+piano./drevues+excerpts+vocal+scores+with+piano/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Revues -- Excerpts -- Vocal scores with piano.</A>
    <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/dSongs+(High+voice)+with+piano./dsongs+high+voice+with+piano/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Songs (High voice) with piano.</A>
Add'l name  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aBartholomae%2C+Philip./abartholomae+philip/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Bartholomae, Philip, Lyricist.</A>
    <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aAnderson%2C+John+Murray./aanderson+john+murray/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Anderson, John Murray, Lyricist.</A>
Alt title   First line of text: In nearly ev'ry play-house now-a-days.
    First line of chorus: I want a daddy who will rock me to sleep.
    <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/tThe+Greenwich+Village+Follies+of+1919./tgreenwich+village+follies+of+1919/-5,-1,0,B/browse">The Greenwich Village Follies of 1919.</A>
Donor   <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/mNational+Endowment+for+the+Arts+Millennium+Project./mnational+endowment+for+the+arts+millennium+project/-5,-1,0,B/browse">National Endowment for the Arts Millennium Project.</A>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
CONVECTION OVEN

   Does anyone have any date for this?...Not to be confused with "Dutch"
Oven, posted here previously.

   27 June 1946, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 42 classified ad:
   Thelco convection ovens, size 14, 1 precision electric oven, size 120.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BRANDY

JOURNAL OR MEMORABLE DESCRIPTION OF THE EAST INDIAN VOYAGE OF WILLIAM
YSBRANTZ BONTEKOE OF HOORN, COMPREHENDING MANY WONDERFUL AND PERILOUS
HAPPENINGS EXPERIENCED THEREIN;
BEGUN ON THE 18th OF DECEMBER 1618, AND  COMPLETED ON THE 16th NOVEMBER 1625
1646 (Dutch--ed.)
New York: Robert M. McBride & Company
1929

Pg. 37:  Thereby the brandy was set afire and flamed up out of the cask, the
heads of the vask burst and the burning brandy ran down into the ship where
the smith's coals lay.

Pg. 112:  ...a steady wind blows from half year to half year that is called
Monsoon...

(The "brandy" is of possible interest for the Dutch sources of the word, but
the 1646 Dutch and 1929 English dates are too late for an antedate that
"1618" would be--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
JALAPENO

   I'm going mad.  I even bought the book JALAPENO MADNESS (2001), but it was
no help at all, just a listing of web sites already seen.
   "Jalapeno" was NOT in this book:  FWIW, I'll show the MEXICO's agriculture
appendix, minus the botanical names.


THE REPUBLIC OF MEXICO
ITS AGRICULTURE, COMMERCE & INDUSTRIES
compiled and edited by Hermann Schnitzler
New York: Nicholas L. Brown
1924

Pg. 133 (QUERATARO):  Chile, another common products, yields 4,800 tons a
year, being sold partly in the shape of "chile verde" (green chili), partly
simply dried or baked in the sun, and some of it preserved in vinegar.  The
various species of chile are grown, viz.: "chile bolita" (capsicum
cordiforme), common chile (capsicum annum), "chile guajilla" (capsicum
longum), and "chile piquin" (capsicum annum cerasiforme).  The variety valled
"guajilla" also "tornachile" is the one that is generally preserved in
vinegar.

APPENDIX II
Pg. 603:
   _Edible Plants_
(...)
Ajo (garlic)
alcachofa (artichoke)
alverjon (common vetch)
apio (celery)
arroz (rice)
avena (corn)
Betabel (beet)
Cabbage
calabaza (calabash)
calabaza de castilla
camote (sweet potato)
cebada (barley)
cebolla (onion)
chayote
chicharo (pea)
chilacayote
chile bolita (chilli)
chile guajilla
chile piquin
colinabo (turnip)
Frijol (common bean)
Garbanzo (garavance or chickpea)
Pg. 604:
guacamote or yuca (yucca)
Haba (large bean)
Ixpengua
Jicama
jicama de agua
jinicuil
Lechuga (lettuce)
lenteja (lentil)
Madre del maiz
maiz cuarenteno (corn)
maiz de elote colorado
maiz de grano vestido
maiz de humedo
maiz de riego
maiz palomero
melon
Nabo (turnip)
ninfa
Papa (Irish potato)
pepino (cucumber)
pimiento
Rabano (radish)
romeritos
Tomate (tomato)
tomatillo
trigo (wheat)
Vainilla (vanilla), used for flavoring
verdolaga
Xaan or palma comun
Yuca (yucca)
Zanahoria (carrot)

Pg. 606:
   _Fruits_
Aguacate (alligator-pear)
aguames
anona
arbol de pan
bonete
bonete
bonete
cacao
cafe (coffee)
capomo
capulin
cardon
cerezo (cherry)
ciruela (plum)
ciruela
ciruela
coco (coconut)
coquito de aceite
chamal
chavacano
chicozapote
chirimoya
chirimoya (cherimoyer)
cuapinole
datil (date)
datil cimarron
frambuesa (raspberry)
fresa (strawberry)
garambullo
granada (pomegranate)
granadilla
granadita de china
granjeno
guamara
guanabana (custard apple)
guasima
higo (fig)
Pg. 607:
huamuchil
jarrilla
jicama
jicama de agua
jinicui
jojoba
lima (lime)
limon (lemon)
macallo
malon zapote
mamey (mammee)
mamey silvestre
mangle
mangle prieto
manzana (apple)
membrillo (quince)
morera (blackberry)
nanche
naranja (orange)
nogal (nut)
nogal de nuez grande
nogal de nuez chica
nopal de castillo
nopal duraznilla
olivo (olive)
papayo (papaw)
papayo
parota
parra (grape)
parra silvestre
peral (pear)
peyote
piche
pina (pineapple)
pina
pitahaya
pitahaya
platano chino
platano morado
platano tabasco (banana)
tamarindo (tamarind
Pg. 608:
tejocote
toronja (grapefruit)
zapote amarillo
zapote blanco (sapota)
zapote prieto
zapotillo or ziziacche


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sun Dec 15 21:56:59 2002
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:56:59 -0800
Subject: mentor/mentee
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021209144451.20329G-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.135659.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The graduate students use it in the Linguistics Department at the
University of Washington. I know I didn't like it at first, but it's a
word that's needed...

Benjamin Barrett
Live from Tukwila

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Peter Richardson
Sent: Monday, 09 December, 2002 14:46

Has anyone heard _mentee_? The pattern is obvious (cf. lessor/lessee),
but I wonder about the specific form. (Personally, I like manatee.)

Thanks.

Peter R.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 16 01:41:55 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:41:55 -0500
Subject: Barry Popik in Safire Column
In-Reply-To: <p04310100ba22738c24f4@[131.151.65.136]>
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.204155.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:18 PM -0600 12/15/02, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>   I'm delighted to see mention of Barry Popik in today's "On
>Language" column by William Safire; the recognition is indeed
>well-deserved.
>
>    For those who might be interested in pursuing the early history of
>"G.O.P." further, here's the bibliographical reference which Mr.
>Safire consulted:
>Barry Popik and Gerald Cohen; "Pushing the Date of G.O.P. (Grand Old
>Party) Back By One Year,To 1883)." in: _Studies in Slang, Part VI_
>(edited by Gerald Leonard Cohen and Barry Popik), Frankfurt a.M.:
>Peter Lang, 1999, pp.63-71.
>
>    The earliest (Dec. 1, 1883) attestation of G.O.P. was located by Barry.
>
>Gerald Cohen
>
Any evidence of "GOP" rhyming with "top" outside of the Cole Porter
song?  (Not that we'd necessarily be able to tell.)

L


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Dec 16 02:33:36 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:33:36 -0600
Subject: Query: Why the plural in Spanish "Buenas dias," etc.? (OT)
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.203336.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    This is off topic, but perhaps someone on the list knows the
answer: Why does Spanish use the plural for Buenas dias (Good day),
Buenas tardes (Good afternoon) and Buenas noches (Good night)?  I
know of no other language that does this.

    Any help would be much appreciated.

Gerald Cohen


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 02:49:20 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 21:49:20 EST
Subject: Query: Why the plural in Spanish "Buenas dias," etc.? (OT)
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.214920.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/15/2002 9:35:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
gcohen at UMR.EDU writes:

> Why does Spanish use the plural for Buenas dias (Good day),
>  Buenas tardes (Good afternoon) and Buenas noches (Good night)?

It's "Buenos dias" (acute accent on the i, "di/as") not "buenas".  "El di/a"
is one of the rare exceptions to the rule that a noun ending in -a is
feminine.

"Buenas noches" corresponds to both "good evening" and "good night" in
English, and unlike "good night" does not necessarily imply a farewell.

My Spanish-English dictionary lists the phrase "dejar a uno a buenos noches"
meaning "to leave one in the lurch".

     - Jim Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 03:00:52 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:00:52 -0500
Subject: Satee/Satay (1904, 1920); Oyster Crackers (1857)
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.220052.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SATEE/SATAY

   OED has 1934 for "satay."  This is one of the national dishes of the East Indies, but I didn't see it in early explorers' journals.


LETTERS OF A JAVANESE PRINCESS
by Raden Adjeng Kartini
translated from the original Dutch by
Agnes Louise Symmers
New York: Alfred A. Knopf
1920

Pg. 242:  And it was not the despised "nonas"* who did this, but white people of unmixed blood; educated, and brought up with every advantage.
*A half-breed, child of a native mother and European father.

Pg. 306 (August 10, 1904 letter):  Every time a goat or a sheep is butchered a tax of twenty cents is paid.  A Satee*-merchant who butchers two every day, must pay this tax, which amounts to one hundred and forty-four florins in the course of a year.
*Satee is a dish composed of meat strung on a stick and roasted.

---------------------------------------------------------------
OYSTER CRACKERS

   OED has 1873 for "oyster crackers."

   FRESH LEAVES by Fanny Fern, (New York: Mason brother, 1857), MOA-Michigan Books database, pg. 72:
   ...a basket of oyster crackers...

   21 December 1858, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 5 ad:
   Buy Bond's Celebrated Boston and Oyster Crackers for the Holidays.

(This ad possibly appeared earlier in the American Periodical Series.  I'll check that again when I buy another Columbia library pass next year--ed.)


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 16 03:07:57 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 19:07:57 -0800
Subject: Safire comma
In-Reply-To: <p04320400ba21830f8b46@[130.132.245.174]>
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.190757.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:

> Nice to see the credit for Barry.   I did notice one typo (or, if you
> prefer, type-o) just afterward, a missing comma ("Barry Popik, an
> etymologist has found..."), but (slightly) more substantively,

That second comma, the one after an appositive or even a relative clause,
seems to have been rejected wholesale by the media in general. The
sentence that Larry cites above reads as if the author were addressing
Barry directly, informing him that some etymologist has found...

Are pixels and electrons in such short supply these days?

Less substantively,

PR


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Dec 16 03:11:24 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 21:11:24 -0600
Subject: Barry Popik in Safire Column
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.211124.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Larry Horn asks if Barry or I found any evidence of "GOP" rhyming with
"top" outside of the Cole Porter song.  The answer for our article is
no, although I'll let Barry comment on whether he's found it anywhere
else.

    I wouldn't expect it though. Cole Porter's "GOP" (rhymes with "top")
arises from great exuberance, permitting Reno to pronounce "Gop" as
if it is a word that Billy has just spelled (gee-oh-pee). This is
nonsense arising from (and justified by) great exuberance.

    For lexical creativity deriving from exuberance, cf. Schiller's Ode to Joy,
which begins with "Joy, divine spark of the gods," and two lines down says
"Wir betreten feuertrunken/Himmlische dein Heiligtum." (literally:
"We enter drunk with fire/Oh heavenly one your sanctuary.")

     What interests me is feuertrunken ("drunk with fire").  Evidently
this is a mixed metaphor.  Joy has just been described as a spark.
Drinking and joy are usually connected with wine. Usually the mixing
of metaphors is a flaw to be avoided, but in this case it's
justified. The Ode to Joy is one happy poem!
Schiller seems to be saying: "Yes, I know I'm mixing metaphors, but
I'm in such an exuberant, exultant mood, I don't care; if joy is a
spark, let's get drunk on sparks."

     Btw, Beethoven took just the beginning of the poem for his Ninth Symphony.

Gerald Cohen


>From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Barry Popik in Safire Column
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>At 1:18 PM -0600 12/15/02, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>>   I'm delighted to see mention of Barry Popik in today's "On
>>Language" column by William Safire; the recognition is indeed
>>well-deserved.
>>
>>    For those who might be interested in pursuing the early history of
>>"G.O.P." further, here's the bibliographical reference which Mr.
>>Safire consulted:
>>Barry Popik and Gerald Cohen; "Pushing the Date of G.O.P. (Grand Old
>>Party) Back By One Year,To 1883)." in: _Studies in Slang, Part VI_
>>(edited by Gerald Leonard Cohen and Barry Popik), Frankfurt a.M.:
>>Peter Lang, 1999, pp.63-71.
>>
>>    The earliest (Dec. 1, 1883) attestation of G.O.P. was located by Barry.
>>
>>Gerald Cohen
>>
>Any evidence of "GOP" rhyming with "top" outside of the Cole Porter
>song?  (Not that we'd necessarily be able to tell.)
>
>L


>From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>Subject:      Tomorrow's Safire "On Language" column
>Comments: To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>Nice to see the credit for Barry.   I did notice one typo (or, if you
>prefer, type-o) just afterward, a missing comma ("Barry Popik, an
>etymologist has found..."), but (slightly) more substantively,
>there's a bit of an overstatement earlier in the column.  Safire
>draws the useful distinction between true acronyms and initialisms,
>but overstates the case in describing the lead player of his column,
>"G.O.P./GOP", as 'universally pronounced gee-oh-pee--by its
>initials--and never as the word "gop", rhyming with "cop".'  This
>claim immediately brought to mind Cole Porter's "You're the Top",
>from _Anything Goes_, which I just confirmed includes the following
>observations:
>
>[BILLY]
>You're a boom,
>You're the dam at Boulder,
>You're the moon,
>Over Mae West's shoulder,
>I'm the nominee of the G.O.P.
>
>[RENO]
>Or GOP!
>
>[BILLY]
>But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
>You're the top!
>
>So on at least this one occasion, albeit with poetic license, "GOP"
>does indeed rhyme with "top", if not with "cop".
>
>Larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Dec 16 04:43:59 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:43:59 -0500
Subject: Barry Popik in Safire Column
In-Reply-To: <p04310104ba22ecec24e4@[131.151.64.249]>
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.234359.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Larry Horn asks if Barry or I found any evidence of "GOP" rhyming with
>"top" outside of the Cole Porter song.  The answer for our article is
>no, although I'll let Barry comment on whether he's found it anywhere
>else.
>
>    I wouldn't expect it though.

I have seen "GOP" as a full-fledged acronym in the form "Gopus, the
Elephant", a comedic constellation in a sky-map, probably in the "Harvard
Lampoon" or maybe "Mad" magazine ... several years back.

-- Doug Wilson


From scorn at PACIFIC.NET.AU  Mon Dec 16 10:14:20 2002
From: scorn at PACIFIC.NET.AU (Steve Cornelius)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:14:20 +1100
Subject: Barry Popik in Safire Column
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021215233912.0295e710@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.211420.1100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For those of us who are non-American English-speaking lurkers on this list,
can anyone take us back to basics and let us know why it's called the Grand
Old Party? Apologies if this ground has been covered before.

Regards
Steve Cornelius
Sydney, Australia


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 16 13:00:30 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:30 -0500
Subject: Earlier Example of "G.O.P."
In-Reply-To: <p04310100ba22738c24f4@[131.151.65.136]>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.080030.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 15 Dec 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote:

>     The earliest (Dec. 1, 1883) attestation of G.O.P. was located by Barry.

Here's an earlier example of "G.O.P.":

1882 _Washington Post_ 3 Nov. 2  The g.o.p. will try to deputy-marshal the
wicked Democrats of the old North State.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Dec 16 13:11:12 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:11:12 -0500
Subject: Oyster Crackers (1857)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.081112.0500.>

Barry P noted:

>>
OYSTER CRACKERS

   OED has 1873 for "oyster crackers."

   FRESH LEAVES by Fanny Fern, (New York: Mason brother, 1857), MOA-Michigan
Books database, pg. 72:
   ...a basket of oyster crackers...

   21 December 1858, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 5 ad:
   Buy Bond's Celebrated Boston and Oyster Crackers for the Holidays.

(This ad possibly appeared earlier in the American Periodical Series.  I'll
check that again when I buy another Columbia library pass next year--ed.)
<<

Let me add that, to my knowledge, this is an Americanism, or at least is
today.  The Brits I have checked with are unfamiliar with this food in the
UK.  At least it is not traditional fare, though maybe lately it has slipped
in.  Of course, they are most closely associated with chowder, which is an
American thing.

The most familiar brand of oyster crackers seems to be Westminster, made in
Vermont.


Frank Abate


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Dec 16 13:59:48 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:59:48 -0500
Subject: lexical vs. lexicographical
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.085948.0500.>

Larry H said:

>>
I see know that our apparent disagreement was largely over goals and
terminology.  What I do is research on lexical semantics and
pragmatics, which is a different enterprise from that of doing
lexicography per se.  In his original posting, Frank was deprecating
(ordinary) google as a tool for LEXICAL RESEARCH, which I take to
include what I do.  In the current post, he refers more specifically
to LEXICOGRAPHICAL RESEARCH, which is a more specific kettle of fish
(although a kettle in which I too like to angle from time to time).

So the disagreement is amicably resolved, and thanks to this thread I
now know about the very useful (to me) search engine at
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search, so it's been a
constructive disagreement as these things go.
<<


You are right, Larry -- I used "lexical" too loosely, and should have said
"lexicographical" originally.  That is what I really meant.

Right, too, that this useful discussion led to a good outcome, on both
sides.

Frank Abate


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Mon Dec 16 14:16:01 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:16:01 -0000
Subject: Using the BNC
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.141601.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The British National Corpus has been mentioned as a good, if ageing (and of
course British) source of lexicographical information. It may be that I am
missing something, but my own experience of the Corpus is that while it
offers a wide range of material (albeit less slang than I might desire) and
its listings give a reference to a publication, as a three-letter/digit
abbreviation, e.g.

C8E The Buddha of suburbia. Kureishi, Hanif. London: Faber & Faber Ltd, 1990

what it does not do, however, is give a page number for the material cited.
It gives a page range (presumably those read for the Corpus), e.g. 'pp.
62-165' and the number of  's-units' and the total word count, but, as I
say, no page number as such. This, for my purposes, and I would imagine
those of other lexicographers, renders it more interesting than practically
helpful.

Always willing to confess ignorance, I am happy to stand corrected. As I
say, I may be missing something. If any user of the BNC can put me right -
or simply join in my regrets - than I would be most grateful.

Jonathon Green


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Mon Dec 16 14:26:47 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 09:26:47 -0500
Subject: Safire comma
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021215190517.10458C-100000@calvin.linfield. edu>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.092647.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It hasn't been rejected by the Times. Safire likes to use what the Times'
editors call "false titles." In my copy, and after my proof, the piece
read, "Etymologist Barry Popik..." Since the gurus at 43rd street wont let
him do this, they changed it to "Barry Popik, an etymologist..." and the
second comma was inadvertently left out by the copy editor in New York. I
rarely get to see the final proof down here in the little old DC bureau, so
I didn't have time to catch it.

Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times





At 07:07 PM 12/15/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> > Nice to see the credit for Barry.   I did notice one typo (or, if you
> > prefer, type-o) just afterward, a missing comma ("Barry Popik, an
> > etymologist has found..."), but (slightly) more substantively,
>
>That second comma, the one after an appositive or even a relative clause,
>seems to have been rejected wholesale by the media in general. The
>sentence that Larry cites above reads as if the author were addressing
>Barry directly, informing him that some etymologist has found...
>
>Are pixels and electrons in such short supply these days?
>
>Less substantively,
>
>PR


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Mon Dec 16 14:36:01 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:36:01 -0000
Subject: Using the BNC
In-Reply-To: <003301c2a50d$acceff40$ad00a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.143601.0000.>

Jonathon Green wrote:

> what it does not do, however, is give a page number for the
> material cited. It gives a page range (presumably those read for
> the Corpus), e.g. 'pp. 62-165' and the number of  's-units' and the
> total word count, but, as I say, no page number as such. This, for
> my purposes, and I would imagine those of other lexicographers,
> renders it more interesting than practically helpful.

I don't use it (I don't have access to it), but I do use the cut-down
CD-ROM version that was produced some years ago. My understanding is
that its great value, as with other corpora, lies in the opportunity
it gives to identify and rank collocations and to assess the relative
importance and frequency of various forms in a balanced image of one
regional type of English.

As others have mentioned, this is something that a search of Google
cannot so easily do, since there are all sorts of systemic biases in
the material that it indexes. Where Google scores over corpora,
however, is that it is a different kind of snapshot, one of current
English that is to a significant degree free from the strictures of
good taste and editing. I've found it immensely useful, for example,
when trying to judge whether a form has gained wide currency as a
folk etymology (chaise lounge, bare with me, without further adieux,
etc).


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 16 14:50:43 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 09:50:43 -0500
Subject: Oyster Crackers (1857)
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAEELFDGAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.095043.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:11 AM -0500 12/16/02, Frank Abate wrote:
>Barry P noted:
>
>>>
>OYSTER CRACKERS
>
>    OED has 1873 for "oyster crackers."
>
>    FRESH LEAVES by Fanny Fern, (New York: Mason brother, 1857), MOA-Michigan
>Books database, pg. 72:
>    ...a basket of oyster crackers...
>
>    21 December 1858, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 5 ad:
>    Buy Bond's Celebrated Boston and Oyster Crackers for the Holidays.
>
>(This ad possibly appeared earlier in the American Periodical Series.  I'll
>check that again when I buy another Columbia library pass next year--ed.)
><<
>
>Let me add that, to my knowledge, this is an Americanism, or at least is
>today.  The Brits I have checked with are unfamiliar with this food in the
>UK.  At least it is not traditional fare, though maybe lately it has slipped
>in.  Of course, they are most closely associated with chowder, which is an
>American thing.
>
>The most familiar brand of oyster crackers seems to be Westminster, made in
>Vermont.
>
And for me, they absolutely have to polygonal--I believe hexagonal,
if I'm counting sides correctly.  I don't know if this is equally
criterial for other respondents, though.

Larry


From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG  Mon Dec 16 16:20:44 2002
From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:20:44 -0400
Subject: Using the BNC
In-Reply-To: <003301c2a50d$acceff40$ad00a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.122044.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 12/16/2002 10:16, Jonathon Green wrote the following:

>what it does not do, however, is give a page number for the material cited.
>It gives a page range (presumably those read for the Corpus), e.g. 'pp.
>62-165' and the number of  's-units' and the total word count, but, as I
>say, no page number as such. This, for my purposes, and I would imagine
>those of other lexicographers, renders it more interesting than practically
>helpful.

Traditionally, I suppose the main utility of page numbers was to allow
others to verify the existence and veracity of quotations without having to
wade through tens or hundreds of thousands of irrelevant words. But if
you're working with an electronic corpus, what's the point of page
numbers?  Anyone who wants to verify your claims can pull the word or
phrase in question up in a matter of seconds.

And sure, not everyone has access to the BNC, but not everyone has access
to the June 12, 1962 edition of the Bumford Times Herald, either.

Cheers,
Scott

_____________________________________________________________
Scott Sadowsky
Centro de Estudios Cognitivos, Universidad de Chile
sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org · ssadowsk at icaro.dic.uchile.cl
_____________________________________________________________


From dave at WILTON.NET  Mon Dec 16 15:35:33 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 07:35:33 -0800
Subject: Using the BNC
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021216115455.0187fc28@66.36.96.30>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.073533.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting Scott Sadowsky <lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG>:

> Traditionally, I suppose the main utility of page numbers was to allow
> others to verify the existence and veracity of quotations without having to
> wade through tens or hundreds of thousands of irrelevant words. But if
> you're working with an electronic corpus, what's the point of page
> numbers?  Anyone who wants to verify your claims can pull the word or
> phrase in question up in a matter of seconds.
>
> And sure, not everyone has access to the BNC, but not everyone has access
> to the June 12, 1962 edition of the Bumford Times Herald, either.

But the page number is essential if you want to check the accuracy of the
electronic version. One has no assurance that the text wasn't altered when it
was digitized. Such changes happen often enough that it is not a trivial issue.
Depending on the importance of the quotation to your work, you may very much
want to go back and look at it in the original just to make sure.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Mon Dec 16 15:43:15 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:43:15 -0000
Subject: Using the BNC
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.154315.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Traditionally, I suppose the main utility of page numbers was to allow
>others to verify the existence and veracity of quotations without having to
>wade through tens or hundreds of thousands of irrelevant words.

My desire for page numbers is indeed, albeit in part, for the purpose of
obtaining citations without ploughing through much extraneous matter.

>But if you're working with an electronic corpus, what's the point of page
>numbers?  Anyone who wants to verify your claims can pull the word or
>phrase in question up in a matter of seconds.

As to the need for such references, they remain vital for 'historical'
lexicography, e.g. the OED, DARE, Jonathan Lighter's slang dictionary and my
own work in progress. The extent to which readers/users, even fellow
lexicographers, actually check them, is debatable, but the current style of
citation as included in this type of dictionary still requires their
appearance. Thus, if one is drawing on a corpus such as the BNC, such
references would be useful.

Jonathon Green


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 15:49:39 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:49:39 -0500
Subject: Flavor of the Month (1937)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.104939.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Greetings from the Library of Congress.

G.O.P.--I don't know what went wrong when I checked the WASHINGTON POST the first time.  I knew I did something wrong.  I was going to re-check it and I found those same few  1882 "G.O.P."  Fred Shapiro beat me to it by a few minutes.  I hate that guy.
   The "grand old party" was applied to the _Democratic_ party.  The initialism "G.O.P." become popular after 1881 or so's "G.O.M."--for Gladstone, the grand old man.  I have to revise the whole thing into a paper, but I'll wait until PUCK and LIFE (both comic but very political magazines) full text becomes available on the American Periodical Series online.

FLAVOR OF THE MONTH--OED has 1946?
   14 April 1937, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 13 ad:
"I wish we could buy ice cream like this!"
(...)  P. S.--Have you tasted Buttered Pecan Ice Cream?  It's the Sealtest "Flavor of the Month."
_Southern Dairies Ice Cream_

JALAPENO--The first WASHINGTON POST hit is 20 December 1896, pg. 10, about people from Jalapa, Mexico.  The first relevant hit, "D. C. Cooking Goes Cosmopolitan," is 9 November 1951, pg. C1.

PORTOBELLO MUSHROOMS--I went crazy looking for pre-1981 hits for this in some databases.  I used portobello/portobella/portabella/portabello.  Google has a large number of hits for all four.  The NEW YORK TIMES had 1985 at the earliest, and the WASHINGTON POST isn't any better.  There's a publication by the American Mushroom Institute (AMI) that probably has it, but OCLC Worldcat says  that's in the Trademark Office and I don't feel like walking all over town today.

PAD THAI--The first WASHINGTON POST hit is 14 May 1978, pg. SM38, in a review of the Siam Inn restaurant.

POZOLE--
   9 February 1941, WASHINGTON POST, pg. ?:
   In Guadalajara the native dish is "pozole," made with corn, meat and chili sauce.

   23 July 1950, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 59:
   Pozole soup, traditional around Guadalajara, is a hog's head soup with cacahuazintle, dried sweet corn with dark blue or black kernels.

BLIMP--Someone asked me about this.  No real early hits, but a mega-ton of bad "hits," like "bump."

EVANS DIGITAL FROM AMERICAN ANTIQUARIAN SOCIETY--The librarian here (the one who gave me the WASHINGTON POST secret password) hasn't heard of it.  They don't have it yet.


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 16 15:55:09 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:55:09 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0211121130530.25543-100000@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.105509.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What amazes me most about Cole Porter is how, even in 1934, he knew which
items would have staying power. When you consider all of the brand names
around then that have since evaporated, it's extremely prescient on his
part to have chosen brands that now, in 2002, are still around:

You're the top! You're a Waldorf salad.
You're the top! You're a Berlin ballad.
You're a baby grand of a lady and a gent.
You're an old dutch master, You're Mrs. Aster,
You're Pepsodent.

  or

You're the top! You're a dance in Bali.
You're the top! You're a hot tamale.
You're an angel, you simply too, too, too diveen,
You're a Botticelli, You're Keats, You're Shelley,
You're Ovaltine.



-- Steve


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 16 16:09:55 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:09:55 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.50.0212161052490.2054-100000@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.110955.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Part of the reason Porter's lyrics in "You're the Top" may seem prescient
is that some of the lyrics that stand the test of time less were edited
out in later versions.  For example, "you're Mussolini" was one of the
original lines that was later eliminated.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 16 16:13:08 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:13:08 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0212161108150.3898-100000@minerva>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.111308.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 11:09:55AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> Part of the reason Porter's lyrics in "You're the Top" may seem prescient
> is that some of the lyrics that stand the test of time less were edited
> out in later versions.  For example, "you're Mussolini" was one of the
> original lines that was later eliminated.

Perhaps because the "Mussolini" line wasn't an original line
and wasn't written by Cole Porter.  It was inserted by
P. G. Wodehouse (!) for a later production.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 16 16:37:57 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:37:57 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <20021216161308.GA7546@panix.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.113757.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:13 AM -0500 12/16/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 11:09:55AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>>  Part of the reason Porter's lyrics in "You're the Top" may seem prescient
>>  is that some of the lyrics that stand the test of time less were edited
>>  out in later versions.  For example, "you're Mussolini" was one of the
>>  original lines that was later eliminated.
>
>Perhaps because the "Mussolini" line wasn't an original line
>and wasn't written by Cole Porter.  It was inserted by
>P. G. Wodehouse (!) for a later production.
>

As Cole's fine Yale education no doubt taught him, Pepsodent, Keats,
and Mrs. Astor were much sounder options.

Larry


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 16 16:54:04 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:54:04 -0800
Subject: Query: Why the plural in Spanish "Buenas dias," etc.? (OT)
In-Reply-To: <a3.34d9eb22.2b2e9930@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.085404.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> It's "Buenos dias" (acute accent on the i, "di/as") not "buenas".  "El di/a"
> is one of the rare exceptions to the rule that a noun ending in -a is
> feminine.

...and probably because its Latin predecessor is masculine--the only
masculine noun, I believe, in the 5th declension.

PR


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 16 17:33:26 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:33:26 -0500
Subject: MLA cocktails invite (28 Dec.)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.123326.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear colleague,

This is a semi-open[1] invitation to a cocktail party
during this year's Modern Language Association conference
in New York. Since I live there, I thought that the least
I can do is to have everyone over who might be in town for
the event. Please come! We'll all get the chance to schmooze.

Cocktails, Saturday, 28 December 2002 from 8.00-10.00 p.m.,
2 Beekman Place Apt. 4A (that's at 50th Street, East of
First Ave.), New York. Please RSVP to me by e-mail at
jester at panix.com . Feel free to bring a friend or other
company.

I apologize in advance for any duplicated receipt of this
message, but I'm sending it to a few lists as well as to
some people personally.

Hope to see you there.

With best wishes,

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary

[1] If you are a member of the American Dialect Society or the
Dictionary Society of North America, or if you're otherwise a
working linguist or lexicographer, or if I've sent this
specifically to you, or if I've ever discussed language issues
with you either in person or by e-mail, consider yourself
invited. Otherwise, please send me e-mail and I'm sure I'll
let you come anyway.


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Dec 16 17:33:33 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 09:33:33 -0800
Subject: Query: Why the plural in Spanish "Buenas dias," etc.? (OT)
In-Reply-To: <p04310103ba22e8ea33e6@[131.151.64.168]>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.093333.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Turkish has or had when I first studied it:

iyi geceler (lit. good evenings)
iyi ak,samlar (lit. good nights)
iyi g"unler (good bye; lit. good days)

Why? I've got no idea.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Sun, 15 Dec 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote:

>     This is off topic, but perhaps someone on the list knows the
> answer: Why does Spanish use the plural for Buenas dias (Good day),
> Buenas tardes (Good afternoon) and Buenas noches (Good night)?  I
> know of no other language that does this.
>
>     Any help would be much appreciated.
>
> Gerald Cohen
>


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Mon Dec 16 17:41:38 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:41:38 -0000
Subject: MLA cocktails invite (28 Dec.)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.174138.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If only.

On the other hand, Susie and I should be back in 49th Street, Felix Dennis's
schedule permitting, in the early spring, so if I don't by some fortunate
chance see you in London prior to that, I trust we can cross paths then. I
think Tom Dalzell has some plan that we should all have some kind of 'slang'
dinner. Let us see. I have, en passant, said to Barry Popik that I would
very much like to met him, but while he replied to the rest of my mail, he
sedulously ignores that sentence. Maybe, when the time comes, you can put in
a plea.

Best wishes,

Jonathon


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 17:42:38 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:42:38 -0500
Subject: "Winning isn't everything" (1954 WASHINGTON POST)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.124238.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   18 November 1954, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 37:
   Nonetheless, Kuharich, a former-All-Pro guard who still is a pro all the way, remains a realist.  As he once said, "Winning isn't everything in pro football--it's the only thing."

(FWIW, from Washington Redskins head coach Joe Kuharich.  But he's not famous, so go with Vince Lombardi--ed.)


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 17:45:31 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:45:31 EST
Subject: Query: Why the plural in Spanish "Buenas dias," etc.? (OT)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.124531.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/15/02 9:35:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, gcohen at UMR.EDU
writes:

> Why does Spanish use the plural for Buenas dias (Good day),
>  Buenas tardes (Good afternoon) and Buenas noches (Good night)?  I
>  know of no other language that does this.

A quick Google search turns up no Web page (in English or Spanish or any
other language) that answers this question.  I did however find, at URL
http://www.mapuexpress.net/publicaciones/raguileo.htm, that in Mapuche (a
Native American language of Mexico), which apparently has a dual number,
"Buenos dias" is "Mari Mari".

     - Jim Landau


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 16 17:46:16 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:46:16 -0500
Subject: MLA cocktails invite (28 Dec.)
In-Reply-To: <001101c2a52a$6362e430$ad00a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.124616.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 05:41:38PM -0000, Jonathon Green wrote:
> If only.
>
> On the other hand, Susie and I should be back in 49th Street, Felix Dennis's
> schedule permitting, in the early spring, so if I don't by some fortunate
> chance see you in London prior to that, I trust we can cross paths then. I
> think Tom Dalzell has some plan that we should all have some kind of 'slang'
> dinner. Let us see. I have, en passant, said to Barry Popik that I would
> very much like to met him, but while he replied to the rest of my mail, he
> sedulously ignores that sentence. Maybe, when the time comes, you can put in
> a plea.

I look forward to seeing you in the spring. I don't know if Barry will show
for this--I'm sure a lot of people would like to meet him. He's fine in
person, as I think I've mentioned.

I think Tom will be in New York a few days after this party--he doesn't
get here, nor I there, as often as either of us would prefer. Oh, you also
have to meet Madeline Kripke, if you haven't yet.

Best,

Jesse


From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM  Mon Dec 16 18:07:34 2002
From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:07:34 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.130734.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Waldorf salad? Berlin ballad? Mrs. Aster? I agree
with the rest in the selection you quote, but as a
culturally cognizant 36 year-old, these three escape
me.

Best,
Don


> What amazes me most about Cole Porter is how, even in 1934, he knew which
> items would have staying power. When you consider all of the brand names
> around then that have since evaporated, it's extremely prescient on his
> part to have chosen brands that now, in 2002, are still around:
>
> You're the top! You're a Waldorf salad.
> You're the top! You're a Berlin ballad.
> You're a baby grand of a lady and a gent.
> You're an old dutch master, You're Mrs. Aster,
> You're Pepsodent.
>
>   or
>
> You're the top! You're a dance in Bali.
> You're the top! You're a hot tamale.
> You're an angel, you simply too, too, too diveen,
> You're a Botticelli, You're Keats, You're Shelley,
> You're Ovaltine.
>
>
>
> -- Steve


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Mon Dec 16 18:19:46 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:19:46 -0600
Subject: First English citation of "autism" (August 1912) - caution,
 long response ahead!
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.121946.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Borsos" <sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 1:13 AM
Subject: Re: First English citation of "autism" (August 1912)


> The contemporary usage of autism can be traced back to the
> descriptions of Leo Kanner and Hans Asperger in the 1940's.  This
> usage of autism is distinguished from Bleuler's usage, (although it
> seems to have been derived from Bleuler).


Actually, it was used almost exclusively for Kanner's autism (also called
"classic autism" or "childhood autism" -- the latter less accurately, for
reasons given in Firth's citation in this reply), because Hans Asperger's
work was largely ignored for more than thirty years: in part because it was
never published in English.  Uta Firth (cited below) was the first to
undertake a translation of Asperger's work (if I recall correctly).

 > Quoting Uta Firth, Autism: Explaining the Enigma, pg.7:
>
>     "Any treatment of the topic of childhood Autism must start with
> the pioneers Leo Kanner and Hans Asperger who, independently of each
> other, first published accounts of this disorder.  These
> publications, Kanner's in 1943 and Asperger's in 1944, contained
> detailed case descriptions and also offered the first theoretical
> attempts to explain the disorder.  Both authorities believed that
> there was present from birth a fundamental disturbance which gave
> rise to highly characteristic problems...."

>     It seems a remarkable coincidence that both chose the word
> 'autistic' in order to characterize the nature of the underlying
> disturbance.  In fact, it is not really a coincidence, since the
> label had already been introduced by the eminent psychiatrist Ernst
> Bleuler in 1911.  It originally referred to a basic disturbance in
> schizophrenia (another term coined by Bleuler),namely the narrowing
> of relationships to people and to the outside world,

Indeed it is remarkable, especially since they did not seem to equate the
syndromes they were describing, which are now more accurately referred to as
points on the "autistic spectrum", or "autistic spectrum disorders".  Of
course, most experts now agree that autism has little or nothing to do with
schizophrenia (the definition of which has also changed greatly since
1911!).  Schizophrenia seems controllable with medications (when
consistently taken, whether symptom-free or not), while there is little
evidence medication can help much in autistic spectrum disorders, except to
treat symptoms of loosely associated mental illnesses, such as obessive
compulsive disorder, chronic depression, anxiety disorders, or bipolar
disorder.  Most high-functioning "Aspies" (people with Asperger Syndrome)
are very aware that there is something very different about them, that makes
them seem odd to other people, but they cannot really define what it is or
how to effect change until behavioral strategies have been introduced and
consistently reinforced.   Many people with "Kanner's autism" are not aware
enough of other people and social mores to realize that they appear very
odd.  (Which is kind of a blessing, because it also does not therefore,
bother them and make them anxious.)

> Incidentally, I believe that Kanner and Asperger (as well as Rett,
> who described Rett Syndrome, which is a degenerative condition
> similar in some ways to Autism), were all Viennese trained, though
> Kanner worked in the United States (at John Hopkins if I remember
> right).
>
> Chuck Borsos
> Santa Cruz, CA
> --
>
Rett syndrome does cause similar symptomology, but seems to be progressive
and unstoppable.  Most points on the autistic spectrum are more fluid, and
coping strategies can be taught, once the differences in thinking patterns
have been recognized for what they are.  The biggest differences between
"high functioning autism" and Asperger Syndrome, btw, seem to be that the AS
child does not necessarily have ANY delay in speech acquisition (and in
fact, may speak exceptionally early, but have a very flat intonation -- my
sister used to say our son "talked like a robot" when he was two to three
years old), tend to have very high IQ's, read early, become almost
obsessively preoccupied with one topic over anything else in their world
(ceiling fans, dinosaurs, air vent covers, train schedules), are more aware
of their "oddness", and withdraw from others because they do not know what
to do in social situations and are "hurt" emotionally a lot.

If Asperger had worked in the US after the war, like Kanner did, we would
never have had to wait over forty years for his work to be translated and
recognized for the breakthrough it represented.  His clinic in Austria was
bombed several times, and virtually closed in 1945 when he lost his most
gifted and empathetic nurse to an air raid.  He kind of "dropped off the
radar" until Uta Firth translated much of his work and notes around 1984.
AS still was not widely recognized until the mid-1990's, when more
researchers picked up on it too, and started publishing more about it.
Children with AS are typically not diagnosed at all until around first
grade, when people finally start figuring out that their sensory
disintegration and behavior issues are actually cognitive and biological,
and not willful immaturity.  I personally know several Aspies who were not
diagnosed until around age ten or twelve in the late 1990's.

As you have ascertained by now, our son has Asperger Syndrome.  We know way
more about it now (he was diagnosed at six, and is now seven-and-a-half)
than we ever would have expected to know about autism at all.  His IQ is
over 140, but he has a rough time in school because his senses get
overwhelmed and he shuts down.  We found after his diagnosis that we had
already been automatically applying some of the strategies suggested to help
him cope, so he is well on his way now to at least appear "neuro-typical" by
the time he hits adolescence (when hormones gone ballistic may throw him
into it all over again).  But we will always have to watch him for
depressive episodes, and for bipolar tendencies.  As for the obsession with
one particular topic?  His happens to be dinosaurs, but is branching out
into dragons and the Middle Ages now.  Can anyone think of a particularly
"odd" professor you have ever had, who seemed obsessed with one small part
of one subspecialty of his or her field?  We probably all can (three-volume
grammars of obscure and dying Australian aboriginal languages, anyone?).  A
friend of mine (with an autistic math whiz) calls universities "protected
workshops for autistics".  :-)   -- Millie


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec 16 18:18:43 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:18:43 -0500
Subject: MLA cocktails invite (28 Dec.)
In-Reply-To: <001101c2a52a$6362e430$ad00a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.131843.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 05:41 PM 12/16/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>If only.
>
>On the other hand, Susie and I should be back in 49th Street, Felix Dennis's
>schedule permitting, in the early spring, so if I don't by some fortunate
>chance see you in London prior to that, I trust we can cross paths then. I
>think Tom Dalzell has some plan that we should all have some kind of 'slang'
>dinner. Let us see. I have, en passant, said to Barry Popik that I would
>very much like to met him, but while he replied to the rest of my mail, he
>sedulously ignores that sentence. Maybe, when the time comes, you can put in
>a plea.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Jonathon

Just go to the New York Public Library and ask for Barry at the Information
desk--they all know him!


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 16 18:31:36 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:31:36 -0800
Subject: Query: Why the plural in Spanish "Buenas dias," etc.? (OT)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0212160928040.69764-100000@homer11.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.103136.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I noticed on a trip to Peru in June that people there say "Bueno dia" and I
think "Buena noche."  Whether this is an adoption of singular forms or part
of a larger phonological phenomenon whereby final s is lost, I don't know,
since these two expressions constitute about one-third of the Spanish I've
retained from grade school in California.

Peter Mc.

--On Monday, December 16, 2002 9:33 AM -0800 "A. Maberry"
<maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU> wrote:

> Turkish has or had when I first studied it:
>
> iyi geceler (lit. good evenings)
> iyi ak,samlar (lit. good nights)
> iyi g"unler (good bye; lit. good days)
>
> Why? I've got no idea.
>
> allen
> maberry at u.washington.edu
>
>
> On Sun, 15 Dec 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>
>>     This is off topic, but perhaps someone on the list knows the
>> answer: Why does Spanish use the plural for Buenas dias (Good day),
>> Buenas tardes (Good afternoon) and Buenas noches (Good night)?  I
>> know of no other language that does this.
>>
>>     Any help would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Gerald Cohen
>>



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Mon Dec 16 18:35:21 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:35:21 -0600
Subject: Kolache (1896)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.123521.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yep, sorry, Steve.  Someone pointed out to me privately that you had typed
"dervied" and not "derived".  I definitely consider it English, but was
commenting that it came over "direct and whole" as a borrowing, not some
kind of derivation.  Forgive my dyxlia.  ;-)    Millie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Kl." <stevekl at PANIX.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: Kolache (1896)


> On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:
>
> > If you want to get technical, Kohlrabi is actually German, not English
(not
> > "derived from German").
>
> It's listed in AHD, RHC, MW10, WNW; it's an English word now, too, not
> unlike sauerkraut.
>
> -- Steve
>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 16 18:34:21 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:34:21 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <20021216161308.GA7546@panix.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.133421.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> Perhaps because the "Mussolini" line wasn't an original line
> and wasn't written by Cole Porter.  It was inserted by
> P. G. Wodehouse (!) for a later production.

My bad.  Looking at The Complete Lyrics of Cole Porter, I see that
Mussolini was not in the original lyrics.  CLCP says that P. G. Wodehouse
added lyrics for the London production; it doesn't indicate that the
Mussolini line was among these (i.e., it doesn't tell what the Wodehouse
additions were), but I'll take Jesse's word for it.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 16 18:46:00 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:46:00 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0212161332160.16140-100000@minerva>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.134600.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 01:34:21PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
> > Perhaps because the "Mussolini" line wasn't an original line
> > and wasn't written by Cole Porter.  It was inserted by
> > P. G. Wodehouse (!) for a later production.
>
> My bad.  Looking at The Complete Lyrics of Cole Porter, I see that
> Mussolini was not in the original lyrics.  CLCP says that P. G. Wodehouse
> added lyrics for the London production; it doesn't indicate that the
> Mussolini line was among these (i.e., it doesn't tell what the Wodehouse
> additions were), but I'll take Jesse's word for it.

There was a famous (to me, at least) exchange a few years back, when
the N.Y. Times Magazine did a cover article about Mussolini, and the
writer commented that Mussolini's reputation was so bad at this point
that even the magisterial CLCP doesn't quote that line. Robert Kimball,
the editor, wrote in to explain why. I'm sure you can Nexis this up
for us....

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 16 18:52:15 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:52:15 -0800
Subject: Query: Why the plural in Spanish "Buenas dias," etc.? (OT)
In-Reply-To: <518857.1040034696@[10.218.201.115]>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.105215.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sounds like the common disappearance of final -s in various versions of
Spanish. (e.g. ?Como e-ta-? (<estas)

> think "Buena noche."  Whether this is an adoption of singular forms or part
> of a larger phonological phenomenon whereby final s is lost, I don't know,

PR


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 19:02:54 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:02:54 -0500
Subject: YMCA Bangkok, Thailand COOK BOOK (1963)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.140254.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   EARLY SIAMESE DISHES (1952) is "Not on Shelf."  I'M SHOCKED!!
   This is the next earliest Thai cookbook in English.  Tell me if you want more detail and I'll copy it.  I'll extensively copy Thai words because it's the first such book we have.

---------------------------------------------------------------


YOUNG MEN'S CHRISTIAN ASSOCIATIONS
BANGKOK, THAILAND
  COOK BOOK
1963

Pg. XXXV
   VEGETABLES
Phuk Bung
Katin
Kui Chai
Tamlung
Gachad
Phuk Chee...Coriander
Khun Chai...Chinese celery.
Phuk Khom...A kind of spinach, sold in bunches in market.
Hua Plee...Banana flower.
Tung Oh...Chinese vegetable used in soup.
Nor Mai...Bamboo shoot.
Makhua...Eggplant, purple or green or white long fruit.
Makhua Khun...Sharp-yellow eggplant.
Makhua Chowphya...Pale green eggplant.
Makhua Puang...Small pale green berries used in curry.
Ma Uk..Green or Yellow eggplant with a beige hairy peel used in turtle curry or shrimp paste.
Big Chilli
Chilli
Little Chilli
Yellow Chilli
Ton Hom..Spring onion.
Ton Katiem...Leek.
Thua Ngork...Bean Sprout.
Thua Fak Yow...Longbean.
Thua Khek...French bean or string bean.
Thua Lan Tow...Peas.
Thua Leung...Soya beans.
Thua Khiew...Green peas.
Thua Dam...Black beans.
Pg. XXXVI:
Taeng Ran...Zucchini Squash.
Thua Si Chompoo...Pink beans.
Thua Daeng...Red beans.
Thua Thong...Yellow beans.
Thua Pu...Winged beans.
Fak Khiew...White gourd.
Fak Thong...Pumpkin.
Buab...Sponge Gourd.
Taeng Kwa...Cucumber.
Phak Kard Hom...Lettuce.
Phak Kard Khow...Green lettuce.
Kalam Plee...Cabbage.
Kalam Dork...Cauliflower.
Kalam Pom...Kohlrabi.
Hom Lek...Shallot.
Hom Yai...Onion.
Katiem...Garlic.
   OTHER INGREDIENTS
Khao tang...Dried rice, can be bought in sheet.
Khao krieb...Sliced dry shrimp and fish paste, fried when used.
Scented water...Flower scented water used in kanom.
Tao Chiew...Bean Curd.
Malet Bua...Dried Lotus Seeds.
Pang Poh Piet...Spring Roll Wrappers.
   ROOTS
Man-gaew...Yam-bean.
Takrai...Lemon grass.
Kachai...Yellow roots, a kind of ginger.
Rak Pak Chee...Coriander root.
Khing...Ginger.
Kha...A kind of light brown root used in some kind of curries.
Phuak...Taro, brown root.
Man Tayd...Sweet potatoes.
Man Farang...Potatoes.
Man Sampalung...Tapioca.
   LEAVES
Horapha...Green leaves and stems, small white flowers, smells somewhat like mint (used for curry).
Pg. XXXVII:
Bai Makrood...Leaf of Makrood (see fruit).
Bai Kapraw...SImilar to Horapha, but has white stems and different smell.
Bai Mangluck...Similar to Horapha but different smell.
Toey...Cluster of sword-shaped leaves.
Saranay...Mint.
   DRY INGREDIENTS
Hed Hu Nu...Brown hard dry mushrooms (soak in water before using) dry or jelly mushrooms.
Hed Hom...Fragrant mushrooms, black dried.
Fong Tao Hoo...Hard dry yellow leaves (soak in water before using).
Nor Mai Jeen...Dried Bamboo shoot.
Dork Mai Jeen...Dark yellow dried tube flower.
Woon Sen...Vermicelli, thin threadlike white spaghetti.
Tang Chai...Pickled vegetable, used in soup, noodles, etc.
Sen Mee...Dried Chinese noodle (soak in water before using).
   SPICES
Piew makrood...Makrood skin, used in curries.
Yee Rah...Carraway seeds.
Look Chan...Nutmeg.
Krawan...Cardamom.
Bai Krawan...Bay leaves.
Karn Plu...Clove.
Ob Cheuy...Cinnamon.
Pong Curry...CUrry powder.
Prick Haeng...Dried Chillies.
Yah Faran...Saffron.
Prick Thai...Pepper.
Nga...Sesame.
Khamin...Tumeric.
Horapa...Basil.
Dock Chan Tead...Mace.
Med Pagad...Mustard seed.
Macam...Jamarind.
Yee Rah...Fennel or carraway seed.
Cha Ame...Licorice.
Pg. XXXVIII:
   FRUIT USED IN COOKING
Som Sa...Green or yellow fruit, looks lik a round rough orange.
Ra Kam...Orange-red fruit.
Makrood...Green fruit with rough peel; use leaves and peel in curiies.
Madan...Carcinia, green, transparent, very sour taste.
Manao...Lime.
Makork...A kind of fruit used for making chili paste.
Talingpling...A kind of fruit similar to madan in taste, but rough.
Krajiep...Roselle.
Pg. XXIX:
   FRUIT
Som oh...Pomelo.
Som khiew wan...A kind of tangerine.
Som klieng...Orange.
Som jook...A kind of orange.
Kluey hom...A yellow long banana.
Kluey huk mook...A kind of yellow-reddish banana.
Kluey nam lawa...A kind of banana.
Kluey khai...A kind of small banana.
Mangkut...Mangosteen.
Noy na...Custard apple.
Lamyai...Dragon's eyes (brown and in cluster).
Kanoon...Jackfruit.
Turian...Durian.
Ngoh...Rambutan.
Langsard...Lansium domesticum (yellow and slightly sticky in cluster).
Mamuang...Mango.
Maprang...A kind of yellow plum, shaped like mango and in season at the same time.
Mayom...Star gooseberry, small, yellow, transparent, on branch.
Sapparot...Pineapple.
Malakor...Papaya.
Farang...Guava.
Lamoot...Sapodilla (potato fruit) dark brown fruit.
Maprow...Coconut.
Chompoo...Rose Apple.
Linchi...Lichi.
Taengtai...Melon.
Kathorn...Wood apple-brown, spongy, cotton wooly inside.
Mafeung..Carambola star-fruit--green and yellow--transparent.
Sake...Bread fruit.
Tab Tim...Pomegranate.
Pg. XL:
   FISH
Mud fish
Fla Chorn...Serpent headed fish.
Pla Dook...Cat fish.
Pla Mor Ted...Tilapia.
Pla Lai...Eel.
Pla Salid...Pilot fish.
Sea Fish
Pla Maw Talay...Whiting
Pla Gao...Greenling
Pla Kapong Dang...Red Snapper
Pla Kapong Kao...White Sea Perch
Pla Kapong Dam...Giant Sea Bass
Pla Ga Rang...Black Grouper
Pla Nam Dok Mai...Barracuda
Pla Ka Bok...Mullet
Pla Kulao...White Sea Bass
Pla Oh--Tuna Fish--Large member of the mackerel family.  Blue fin tuna is most often seen in the fish market here.
Pla Insee--Wahoo (Mackerel)
Pg. XLI:
Pla Lin Ma...Sole
Pla Charamed...Pompano
Pla Too...Herring--Small and silver.
Pla Muk---Squid, Cuttle fish or inkfish.
SHell FIsh
Gung Nang...Small shrimp.
Gung Hang...Dried shrimp.
Gung Yai...Prawns (Large shrimps).
Gang...Rock Lobster.
Bpoo...Crab.
Hoy Chai...Scallops
Ho Ta Lup...Clams
Hoy Nang Lum...Oysters
Hoy Ga Pong...Mussels
Hoy Ma Laeng Poo...Sea Mussels
Hoy Kraeng...Cockle
Hoy Kohng Talay...Abalone

Pg. 5:  Khao Tang (sheets of dried cooked rice peeled off bottom of rice kettle.)
Pg. 6:  Lumpia (Philippines).
Pg. 6:  Mieng Kham.
Pg. 47: Sa-Nwin-Ma-Kin (Burmese).
Pg. 47: Ta Cao (Thai).
Pg. 48: Thai Custard (Sangkhaya).
Pg. 69: Kaeng Masaman.
Pg. 89:  Johnny Marzetti.  (OK, it's not really a Thai cookbook--ed.)
Pg. 89: Mohinga--Burmese National Dish.
Pg. 90: Rice Noodles With Peanut Sauce (Nam Prik Knom Jin).
Pg. 90: Mee Krob.
Pg. 91: Wun Sen (Thai vermicelli with vegetables).
Pg. 91: Sang's Thai Noodle Soup.
Pg. 108: Chicken Curry (Kaeng Kai).
Pg. 111: Chicken and Prok Adobo (Filipino).
Pg. 113: Khow Mok Gai--Moslim Chicken and Rice.
Pg. 114: Sate Ajam--Grilled Chicken (Indonesian).
Pg. 116: Buffadoo (Portuguese Duck)(Burmese).
Pg. 121: Lethoke (Burmese salad).
Pg. 122: Thanat (Burmese salad).
Pg. 123: Thai Salad (Green Salad With Peanut Dressing).
Pg. 128: Sinsolo Dinner (Korean).
Pg. 129: Tapioca Yaku Soup (Thai).
Pg. 151:  MENUS FROM MANY LANDS
   _Burmese_
Nga-Baung Doke (Burmese Steamed Fish)...pg. 58
Winter Melon Broth...pg. 130
Beef Curry (Burmese)...pg. 65
or Chicken Curry (Burmese)...pg. 108
Steamed Rice Fried White Gourd...pg. 139
Thanat Salad...pg.122
or Lethoke Salad...pg. 121
Sa-Nwin-Ma-Kin...pg. 47
Pg. 156:
   _THai_
Mieng Kham...pg. 6
Stuffed Tapioca Balls...pg. 10
Sang's Thai Noodle Soup...pg. 91
Gai Yang (Thai)...pg. 106
Chicken Curry...pg. 108
or Masaman Curry...pg. 69
Steamed White Rice, Chopped cucumbers and Chopped Tomatoes
Mango Chutney...pg. 102
Thai Custard in Green Coconuts or Fresh Fruit...pg. 48


From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST  Mon Dec 16 19:04:46 2002
From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:04:46 +0100
Subject: Flavor of the Month (1937) - Jalapena
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.200446.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Maybe you should try looking also at Xalapena. I was in Xalapa two months ago, and about half of the Mexicans I met spelled "Jalapa", the other half "Xalapa".
Jan Ivarsson
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:49 PM
Subject: Flavor of the Month (1937)


>     Greetings from the Library of Congress.
>
> G.O.P.--I don't know what went wrong when I checked the WASHINGTON POST the first time.  I knew I did something wrong.  I was going to re-check it and I found those same few  1882 "G.O.P."  Fred Shapiro beat me to it by a few minutes.  I hate that guy.
>    The "grand old party" was applied to the _Democratic_ party.  The initialism "G.O.P." become popular after 1881 or so's "G.O.M."--for Gladstone, the grand old man.  I have to revise the whole thing into a paper, but I'll wait until PUCK and LIFE (both comic but very political magazines) full text becomes available on the American Periodical Series online.
>
> FLAVOR OF THE MONTH--OED has 1946?
>    14 April 1937, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 13 ad:
> "I wish we could buy ice cream like this!"
> (...)  P. S.--Have you tasted Buttered Pecan Ice Cream?  It's the Sealtest "Flavor of the Month."
> _Southern Dairies Ice Cream_
>
> JALAPENO--The first WASHINGTON POST hit is 20 December 1896, pg. 10, about people from Jalapa, Mexico.  The first relevant hit, "D. C. Cooking Goes Cosmopolitan," is 9 November 1951, pg. C1.
>
> PORTOBELLO MUSHROOMS--I went crazy looking for pre-1981 hits for this in some databases.  I used portobello/portobella/portabella/portabello.  Google has a large number of hits for all four.  The NEW YORK TIMES had 1985 at the earliest, and the WASHINGTON POST isn't any better.  There's a publication by the American Mushroom Institute (AMI) that probably has it, but OCLC Worldcat says  that's in the Trademark Office and I don't feel like walking all over town today.
>
> PAD THAI--The first WASHINGTON POST hit is 14 May 1978, pg. SM38, in a review of the Siam Inn restaurant.
>
> POZOLE--
>    9 February 1941, WASHINGTON POST, pg. ?:
>    In Guadalajara the native dish is "pozole," made with corn, meat and chili sauce.
>
>    23 July 1950, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 59:
>    Pozole soup, traditional around Guadalajara, is a hog's head soup with cacahuazintle, dried sweet corn with dark blue or black kernels.
>
> BLIMP--Someone asked me about this.  No real early hits, but a mega-ton of bad "hits," like "bump."
>
> EVANS DIGITAL FROM AMERICAN ANTIQUARIAN SOCIETY--The librarian here (the one who gave me the WASHINGTON POST secret password) hasn't heard of it.  They don't have it yet.
>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 16 19:33:43 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:33:43 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <20021216184600.GA29559@panix.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.143343.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FROM NEW YORK TIMES, 21 AUG. 1994:


The Mussolini lyric from "You're the Top," cited in John Lukacs's article
"Benito Mussolini, Back From the Dead" (July 24), was written by P. G.
Wodehouse for the 1935 London production of "Anything Goes." In the
original 1934 New York production, the Porter refrain was:

You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire
You're an O'Neill drama
You're Whistler's mama
You're Camembert.

The fact that the Mussolini line does not appear in Robert Kimball's
"Complete Lyrics of Cole Porter" or "The Unpublished Cole Porter" is not
due to any desire to censor Porter's works; it is simply because he did
not write that version.

There have been numerous parodies of Porter's lyric scheme for "You're the
Top," including a fine ribald version written by Irving Berlin.

ROBERT H. MONTGOMERY JR.
Trustee, Cole Porter Musical and Literary Property Trusts
New York, N.Y.



Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 16 19:42:44 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:42:44 -0800
Subject: Flavor of the Month (1937) - Jalapena
In-Reply-To: <003701c2a536$02d18de0$521642d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.114244.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

They must have been from Tejas.

PR

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote:

> Maybe you should try looking also at Xalapena. I was in Xalapa two months ago, and about half of the Mexicans I met spelled "Jalapa", the other half "Xalapa".
> Jan Ivarsson


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 16 19:54:29 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:54:29 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <00a901c2a52e$02537de0$0101a8c0@billionbridges1>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.145429.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Billionbridges.com wrote:

> Waldorf salad? Berlin ballad? Mrs. Aster? I agree
> with the rest in the selection you quote, but as a
> culturally cognizant 36 year-old, these three escape
> me.

Waldorf salads are still to be had. Berlin ballad, I assume, refers to a
ballad by Irving Berlin? And the Astor family is still a known name.

-- Steve


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Dec 16 20:15:12 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:15:12 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021212180313.04a5aec0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.151512.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

#Vance Randolph: a Missouri (Ozarks) story:
#
#<<One time there was a young farmer had some folks come over to his place
#for supper.
#
#... the baby come a-crawling out on the floor, and you could see where he
#has shit all over himself. ... the man spoke right up. "Marthy," says he,
#"fetch the dishrag, and wipe that young-un's ass. If there's one thing I
#can't stand, it's nastiness!"
#
#... They didn't go there for supper no more ....>>

I believe I recall seeing that in the collection _Pissing In the Snow_,
a wonderful book of mountain tales, jokes, and anecdotes that were
considered unprintable at the time they were collected.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec 16 20:22:08 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:22:08 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.152208.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        A Waldorf salad is a salad named after the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel and made from apples, walnuts, lettuce and/or celery, dressed with mayonnaise.  They are still popular.  A Berlin ballad is a song by Irving Berlin, probably the most popular American songwriter.  Mrs. Astor (née Caroline Webster Schermerhorn) (1830 - 1908) was the unquestioned doyenne of New York City society for decades.  The upper reaches of NYC society were often called the "four hundred," a reference to the number of people who could fit in her ballroom.

        According to http://dogslife.blogspot.com/2002_07_01_dogslife_archive.html, the Irving Berlin lyrics to You're the Top are as follows:

You're the top.
You're Miss Pinkham's tonic.
You're the top.
You're a high colonic.
You're the burning heat of a bridal suite in use.
You're the breast of Venus,
You're King Kong's penis,
You're self-abuse!
You're an arch from the Rome collection.
You're the starch in a groom's erection.
I'm a eunuch that has undergone an "op."
But if, baby, I'm the bottom, you're the top!

        I'm mystified by Miss Pinkham's tonic and hazy on the arch from the Rome collection.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Billionbridges.com [mailto:translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM]
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 1:08 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cole Porter


Waldorf salad? Berlin ballad? Mrs. Aster? I agree
with the rest in the selection you quote, but as a
culturally cognizant 36 year-old, these three escape
me.

Best,
Don


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Dec 16 20:22:55 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:22:55 -0500
Subject: Six and ten
In-Reply-To: <000701c2a2c7$4d643680$c8ded0d9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.152255.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote:

#A translator's problem:
#
#A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has bought a dish antenna because he thinks that the Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has paid 4000 $ for the dish and is deceived. He says:
#"I spent four grand for the dish.
#And what do I get? Six and ten!"
#
#My question is: What does he mean by "six and ten"?

My guess is, Channel 6 and Channel 10, which are presumably local
stations that he could pick up with a rabbit-ears set-top antenna that
he could buy for $15 or less at any electronics store.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET  Mon Dec 16 20:26:51 2002
From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:26:51 -0500
Subject: Six and ten
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.152651.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SIX WINS;
TEN LOSSES.

Mark A Mandel wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote:
>
> #A translator's problem:
> #
> #A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has bought a dish antenna because he thinks that the Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has paid 4000 $ for the dish and is deceived. He says:
> #"I spent four grand for the dish.
> #And what do I get? Six and ten!"
> #
> #My question is: What does he mean by "six and ten"?
>
> My guess is, Channel 6 and Channel 10, which are presumably local
> stations that he could pick up with a rabbit-ears set-top antenna that
> he could buy for $15 or less at any electronics store.
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Mon Dec 16 20:32:12 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:32:12 -0600
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.143212.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I presumed that this is the same "Astor" as the "Lady Astor" I would expect
many of us to have heard of.  Can someone correct me if I'm wrong?  --
Millie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Cole Porter


>         A Waldorf salad is a salad named after the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel
and made from apples, walnuts, lettuce and/or celery, dressed with
mayonnaise.  They are still popular.  A Berlin ballad is a song by Irving
Berlin, probably the most popular American songwriter.  Mrs. Astor (née
Caroline Webster Schermerhorn) (1830 - 1908) was the unquestioned doyenne of
New York City society for decades.  The upper reaches of NYC society were
often called the "four hundred," a reference to the number of people who
could fit in her ballroom.


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 16 20:34:21 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:34:21 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540DB10C@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.153421.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Baker, John wrote:

> I'm a eunuch that has undergone an "op."
> But if, baby, I'm the bottom, you're the top!

thus bringing the queer top/bottom subtext to the fore.

-- Steve Kleinedler


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Dec 16 20:39:42 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:39:42 -0500
Subject: minnow's dick
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.153942.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Brett Favre sure pulled some game announcers' legs real good
yesterday before the Green Bay-San Francisco game. One of them
(forgot which) said how Brett had told them how slick the field was
(it was raining) before the the game. Brett told them, he reported,
that the field was "as slick as the deck of The Minnow." The
announcer then reminded the audience that "The Minnow" was the name
of the boat in "Gilligan's Island."

What he did not know was that "slick as a minnow's dick" is a common
proverbial comparison in many parts of both the lower and upper
South, and ole Brett was doubtless yukking it up in his helmet when
they innocently put his version out on the national airwaves. Me too.

dInIs

PS: Don't tell me you ain't heard this. I have this from fieldwork as
well as from memory (see an old Orbis article of mine on "proverbial
comparison from the upland South" published fore ya'll were born)
--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Mon Dec 16 20:47:46 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:47:46 -0600
Subject: MLA cocktails invite (28 Dec.)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.144746.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jesse Sheidlower" <jester at PANIX.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: MLA cocktails invite (28 Dec.)


> I look forward to seeing you in the spring. I don't know if Barry will show
> for this--I'm sure a lot of people would like to meet him. He's fine in
> person, as I think I've mentioned.


As opposed to on-line?  :-)  Not a slight at all, Barry; I think you sound "delightful", to use one of my mom's favorite words.  -- Millie


From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST  Mon Dec 16 20:55:39 2002
From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:55:39 +0100
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.215539.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The page
http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/unitarians/pinkham.html
has the following
"...the Vegetable Compound and other patent remedies of Lydia E. Pinkham had become household standbys, and though the founder of the firm realized only limited wealth, her children and grandchildren had made "Lydia Pinkham" into an eminently profitable industry."
That may be the explanation for "Miss Pinkham's tonic".
Jan Ivarsson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: Cole Porter


>         A Waldorf salad is a salad named after the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel and made from apples, walnuts, lettuce and/or celery, dressed with mayonnaise.  They are still popular.  A Berlin ballad is a song by Irving Berlin, probably the most popular American songwriter.  Mrs. Astor (née Caroline Webster Schermerhorn) (1830 - 1908) was the unquestioned doyenne of New York City society for decades.  The upper reaches of NYC society were often called the "four hundred," a reference to the number of people who could fit in her ballroom.
>
>         According to http://dogslife.blogspot.com/2002_07_01_dogslife_archive.html, the Irving Berlin lyrics to You're the Top are as follows:
>
> You're the top.
> You're Miss Pinkham's tonic.
> You're the top.
> You're a high colonic.
> You're the burning heat of a bridal suite in use.
> You're the breast of Venus,
> You're King Kong's penis,
> You're self-abuse!
> You're an arch from the Rome collection.
> You're the starch in a groom's erection.
> I'm a eunuch that has undergone an "op."
> But if, baby, I'm the bottom, you're the top!
>
>         I'm mystified by Miss Pinkham's tonic and hazy on the arch from the Rome collection.
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Billionbridges.com [mailto:translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM]
> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 1:08 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Cole Porter
>
>
> Waldorf salad? Berlin ballad? Mrs. Aster? I agree
> with the rest in the selection you quote, but as a
> culturally cognizant 36 year-old, these three escape
> me.
>
> Best,
> Don
>


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Dec 16 21:37:02 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:37:02 -0500
Subject: Oyster Crackers (1857)
In-Reply-To: <p04320401ba239862b144@[130.132.245.243]>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.163702.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Larry writes:
>>The most familiar brand of oyster crackers seems to be Westminster, made in
>>Vermont.
>>
>And for me, they absolutely have to polygonal--I believe hexagonal,
>if I'm counting sides correctly.  I don't know if this is equally
>criterial for other respondents, though.
 ~~~~~~~
For geometry, too, once you get past  triangles & squares as equilateral
button-shaped  figures, hexagons are the most efficient (given that these
are stamped from a broad sheet of dough).  Otherwise you'd have little
scraps of other shapes  filling the interstices.
AM

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 21:43:55 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:43:55 EST
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.164355.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/16/02 3:57:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST writes:

> "...the Vegetable Compound and other patent remedies of Lydia E. Pinkham
had
> become household standbys, and though the founder of the firm realized only
> limited wealth, her children and grandchildren had made "Lydia Pinkham"
into
> an eminently profitable industry."
>  That may be the explanation for "Miss Pinkham's tonic".

Change "may" to "almost certainly is".  Lydia E. Pinkham's Vegetable Compound
was one of the most famous patent medicines of the first half of the 20th
Century.

I suspect that, like many of the "tonics" of that era, it's high alcoholic
content (30 proof) explains much of its popularity---it may even have been
the inspiration for the "Vitameatavegamin" that Lucille Ball made famous in a
fondly-remembered  "I love Lucy" episode.

The old-fashioned "tonic" patent madicine went out of fashion in the US a
couple of generations ago, replaced (I say with some cynicisim) by "herbal
remedies" and various "organic" preparations.  The last well-known tonic of
the old school is Geritol, which has contributed a phrase to American
English: "the Geritol generation".  A similar patent medicine, "Carter's
Little Liver Pills' (actually a laxative) also contributed a phrase "more x
than Carter's has pills".

I wonder what it says for the United States than in the 1950's TV was full of
ads for laxatives but in the 1990's the ads were for painkillers.

As for "Roman arch", my best guess is "you're a Roman [Catholic}
Arch[bishop]" as opposed to say a mere priest.

            - Jim Landau


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec 16 21:52:57 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:52:57 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.165257.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        According to Pissing in the Snow, the farmer was making a bad joke, one that made even guests who weren't too particular get queasy.

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: Beverly Flanigan [mailto:flanigan at OHIOU.EDU]
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:49 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Exposure to language

And that's partially why I don't buy  Doug Wilson's speculation that my
parents (and others in my speech community) were cleverly reversing 'shit'
to 'tish' and then voicing to 'dish'--they were smart but not that
clever!  Nor can I believe Randolph's farmer would have used a cloth for
washing dishes on his baby's rear end; I suspect his community used 'dish'
in the same way mine did, and that the visitors were horrified because they
didn't share that dual usage!


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec 16 21:48:30 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:48:30 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212161514060.80406263-100000@shell01.TheWor
 ld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.164830.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:15 PM 12/16/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
>#Vance Randolph: a Missouri (Ozarks) story:
>#
>#<<One time there was a young farmer had some folks come over to his place
>#for supper.
>#
>#... the baby come a-crawling out on the floor, and you could see where he
>#has shit all over himself. ... the man spoke right up. "Marthy," says he,
>#"fetch the dishrag, and wipe that young-un's ass. If there's one thing I
>#can't stand, it's nastiness!"
>#
>#... They didn't go there for supper no more ....>>
>
>I believe I recall seeing that in the collection _Pissing In the Snow_,
>a wonderful book of mountain tales, jokes, and anecdotes that were
>considered unprintable at the time they were collected.
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel

And that's partially why I don't buy  Doug Wilson's speculation that my
parents (and others in my speech community) were cleverly reversing 'shit'
to 'tish' and then voicing to 'dish'--they were smart but not that
clever!  Nor can I believe Randolph's farmer would have used a cloth for
washing dishes on his baby's rear end; I suspect his community used 'dish'
in the same way mine did, and that the visitors were horrified because they
didn't share that dual usage!


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec 16 22:07:29 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:07:29 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.170729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Nice work on Miss Pinkham's tonic.  As to the "arch from the Rome collection," my guess is that the Rome collection is the Vatican's famous collection of prohibited books, reputed to include many famous pornographic works.  If that's right, though, it's not clear what "arch" would refer to.

        I presume that by Lady Astor, Millie Webb meant Viscountess Nancy Witcher Astor (1879 - 1964), the first woman to sit in the House of Commons, best known today for her bon mots and as Winston Churchill's verbal antagonist.  Some quotes are reproduced at http://www.dropbears.com/b/broughsbooks/lady_astor.htm.  Lady Astor is, of course, entirely different from the earlier Mrs. Astor, though they both married into the same Astor family.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM]
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:44 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cole Porter

As for "Roman arch", my best guess is "you're a Roman [Catholic}
Arch[bishop]" as opposed to say a mere priest.

            - Jim Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 23:26:01 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:26:01 -0500
Subject: Windy City (Jan. 16, 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.182601.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   No trip to the Library of Congress could be complete without pushing "Windy City" back a bit.  I'm told that this is Dennnis Preston's favorite ADS-L feature.
   I did NOT see it in very long Chicago articles in the LOUISVILLE COURIER JOURNAL in 1882.  Also, the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER had a good chance to use it about two weeks earlier in 1883, but didn't.
   Notice the lack of caps.

   16 January 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 1:
   THE Chicago papers are quick to "catch on" to a fire sensation and make the most of it.  The Milwaukee calamity was almost at Chicago's doors, and put the people of the windy city on the alert.  The first news received in Cincinnati of the fire in the Planters' House in St. Louis Sunday morning came from Chicago.  They know how to appreciate a fire item up that way.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec 16 23:28:12 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:28:12 -0500
Subject: FW: arch from Rome
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.182812.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I'm forwarding a list contribution from Sally Donlon.  I note in response that the Irving Berlin version of "You're the Top" seemingly consists of only risque references, making a straightforward reference to Roman arches unlikely.  However, the suggested meaning probably is a part of whatever double entendre is intended.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Sally Donlon [mailto:sod at louisiana.edu]
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 6:18 PM
To: Baker, John
Subject: arch from Rome


Excuse me, but why couldn't "arch from the Rome collection"
simply refer to a Roman arch, as in memes and spandrels,
etc.? The Roman arches in Hadrian's Wall, alone, merited
their own documentary. It's a classical form that has
intrigued historians and archaeologists since it's somewhat
remarkable inception.

Happy Holidays,

Sally O. Donlon

P.S. Sorry to impose on your email but there's some setting
on my university's server that precludes me from
participating directly in the list, and this has been
killing me.....  -sod-


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Tue Dec 17 00:17:50 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:17:50 -0600
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.181750.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you very much.  I wondered about that: How could she be an American
party queen (or whatever more genteel word was used earlier) if she were a
Brit in the House of Commons.  -- Millie

(And I will look at that site with some of her quotes.  Thanks for that
reference too.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Cole Porter


>         I presume that by Lady Astor, Millie Webb meant Viscountess Nancy
Witcher Astor (1879 - 1964), the first woman to sit in the House of Commons,
best known today for her bon mots and as Winston Churchill's verbal
antagonist.  Some quotes are reproduced at
http://www.dropbears.com/b/broughsbooks/lady_astor.htm.  Lady Astor is, of
course, entirely different from the earlier Mrs. Astor, though they both
married into the same Astor family.
>
> John Baker


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Dec 17 03:17:51 2002
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:17:51 -0600
Subject: up a stump/calculate
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021215233912.0295e710@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.211751.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A fellow student asked me about the following. I was unable to help
him and offered to forward his message to the list.


Does anyone know if 'up a stump' as an idiom and 'I calculate' in the
sense of 'I suppose' are used in Appalachian speech?  The sources I
have found (DARE and the Dictionary of American Regionalisms) suggest
that both are chiefly Northern.  Additionally, the idiom usually
means 'to be pregnant'.  Can it have a more general meaning of simply
'to be in trouble'?

Thank you,

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics
        For Rodney Edwards


From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG  Tue Dec 17 08:28:36 2002
From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 04:28:36 -0400
Subject: Using the BNC
In-Reply-To: <001301c2a519$eb697e40$ad00a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.042836.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dave Wilton:
>But the page number is essential if you want to check the accuracy of the
>electronic version. One has no assurance that the text wasn't altered when it
>was digitized. Such changes happen often enough that it is not a trivial
>issue.
>Depending on the importance of the quotation to your work, you may very much
>want to go back and look at it in the original just to make sure.

I guess this reflects our different criteria and goals.  Coming from a
corpus linguistics approach, I would assign virtually no importance to any
single occurrence of *anything*.  First of all because, as you point out, a
certain percentage of bad data is inevitable, and that means that you need
multiple occurrences of what you're interested in before you can even be
sure it's actually what you've found.  And secondly, there is very little
that you can reliably conclude from a single event of any sort.

 From this perspective, antedating based on single examples (to take on a
favorite ADS-L pastime) is really quite pointless.  Of course, if the goal
is to assemble everyone's antedatings of a given word at some point and
work from there, then it makes some sense.  But this approach is utterly
hit-and-miss, and to my mind the only responsible reaction to reports of
such data points is to file them away until there are enough to begin to
draw at least moderately sound conclusions.

Personally, if I were an antedater I'd stop reading old texts, start OCRing
them, assemble them into corpora when I had a couple million words, and
then knock off a five or ten thousand antedatings in a week or two.

And yes, I'm aware you weren't talking specifically about antedating...
call it a ranty tangent if you will.

Cheers,
Scott

_____________________________________________________________
Scott Sadowsky
Centro de Estudios Cognitivos, Universidad de Chile
sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org · ssadowsk at icaro.dic.uchile.cl
_____________________________________________________________


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Tue Dec 17 09:25:40 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:25:40 -0000
Subject: MLA cocktails invite (28 Dec.)
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.092540.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Aaarrgghh! Embarrassment. Posting a mail to Jesse thinking it would go to
him alone, rather than the entire list. Still, thanks for your advice. I
shall act accordingly when I get back to th NYPL. Of course, being a Brit I
shall probably tremble wihout the full apparatus of formal inroduction.

Jonathon Green


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 17 11:09:03 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 06:09:03 EST
Subject: "A Sucker Born Every Day" (Feb. 5, 1883)
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.060903.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Scott Sadowsky wrote:
"From this perspective, antedating based on single examples (to take on a
favorite ADS-L pastime) is really quite pointless.  Of course, if the goal
is to assemble everyone's antedatings of a given word at some point and
work from there, then it makes some sense.  But this approach is utterly
hit-and-miss, and to my mind the only responsible reaction to reports of
such data points is to file them away until there are enough to begin to
draw at least moderately sound conclusions.
"Personally, if I were an antedater I'd stop reading old texts, start OCRing
them, assemble them into corpora when I had a couple million words, and
then knock off a five or ten thousand antedatings in a week or two."

   I disagree.  You have to examine each text critically, post results, and
discuss them,  Stop reading old texts and start OCRing them?  Some points
about that:

1. COPYRIGHTS--Much work cannot be put on a database until the copyright
expires.  We have to read the sources immediately where we can find them, or
you'll have a long wait for that Caesar salad.
2. COMPILING--Yes, it's being assembled at various places, from the OED to
Merriam-Webster to DARE.  We try to improve what's already there, working
with various different deadlines.  We use all available tools to do so.  It
is not hit-or-miss, nor is it pointless.  Nor can thousands of words and
phrases be done in a week or two.
3.  OCR IS NOT NEARLY PERFECT--The number of false hits is sometimes quite
large.  For "G.O.P," for example, I anticipated false hits to be very large
for this three-letter term (especially in classified pages), so I added other
terms in a quick search, such as "grand old party."  This resulted in my not
finding the first hit, but I didn't know that it was needed this week!  In
the case of AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES online, early false hits are 90%, s
ometimes 100% for short words like "jazz."  So even if all material is
OCRed--which is far from being the case--you still need to interpret it.  And
if you get back a thousand "big apple" results, do you have what you want?
4. SPELLINGS VARY--A lot of the food terms I research are originally from
other nations.  Take "steak tartar."  Or is it "steak tartare," or "steak a
la tartare," or "steak a la tartar," or "beefsteak a la tartare," or
"beefsteak a la tartar," or "beoufsteak a la tartare," or maybe it's even
"sirloin a la tartar"?   Is it "posole" or "pozole"?  And is that 1896
"brownie" really the "brownie" we now know?  You look at OED and M-W, then
check all forms in all the relevant databases.  This takes a long while.
Then you check out the books and magazines for the geographic area (Mexico?)
or topic area (mushrooms?) where it might be.  And there are tons of books
and magazines, most all that have to be done by hand.  This can be an even
longer process than the database searching, but you at least get the spelling
when it's there in an index as "kolace."
5. FORMS VARY--Is it "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing" or
"Winning isn't everything in pro football, it's the only thing"?  Is it "from
soup to nuts"?  What about "soup to walnuts"?  Or maybe it's something else
that doesn't use either "soup" or "nuts"?  Which brings me to the item below.

    To summarize, something like the British National Corpus is a tool, and
one tool only.  It is not Fred Shapiro.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
A SUCKER BORN EVERY DAY

   This is earlier than my NEW YORK TIMES cite.  It's "every day," not "every
minute."  And, as pointed out before, P. T. Barnum didn't say it.

   5 February 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 4:
      _BUNKO_
_"A Sucker Born Every Day"_
_The Game in This and Other Cities--Harry Withrow's Arrest in Boston._
   A reporter asked a well-know bunko man one day how it was that people
still continued to be swindled by the same old process when the papers are
constantly warning them.  The reply was that there was a sucker born every
day.  And so it seems, for the old time scheme continues to be worked with
success all over the country.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
WINDY CITY

   We now have several 1883 citations in the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER.  Still,
when I present them to the TODAY show to correct them, no one listens.
   The first obvious one following that 16 January 1883 citation appears to
be this:

   8 February 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 7:
   _CHICAGO LETTER_
_The Police, Fire and Signal System_
   _of the Windy City._

   Earlier in the 16 January 1883 editorials, the word "footstool" was used.
Perhaps the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER was thinking of this recent piece that it ran
on 6 January 1883, pg. 11, col. 4:

_Only a Breeze--The Windiest Place on the Footstool._
(Laramie (Wy.T.) Boomerang.)
   Among the many things which have tended to make Cheyenne noted all over
the world is the fact that it is the windiest spot on the footstool.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SHEIDLOWER'S COCKTAILS

    As I said, I'll be in Africa.


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Dec 17 12:23:51 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:23:51 -0000
Subject: "A Sucker Born Every Day" (Feb. 5, 1883)
In-Reply-To: <10f.1bacdff8.2b305fcf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.122351.0000.>

> To summarize, something like the British National Corpus is a
> tool, and one tool only.

Yes, and to reiterate what I wrote yesterday such corpora are
statistical tools, not citational ones.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 17 13:35:18 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 08:35:18 EST
Subject: Lebkuchen
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.083518.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I can''t find the ADS-L message, I think from Barry Popik, about "lebkuchen"
so I don't know what the up-to-date antedating (isn't that an oxymoron?) may
be.

So:
Mrs. Simon Kander (Lizzie Black Kander), ed _The "Settlement" Cook Book:
Sixth Edition_ Milwaukee: n.p, no date but probably 1912.

pages 381f has a recipe for "LEBKUCHEN" and page 382 has a second recipe for
"LEBKUCHEN"

     - Jim Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 17 13:51:08 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 08:51:08 EST
Subject: Refrigerator
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.085108.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To add to the confusion about iceboxes versus refrigerators:

The 6th Edition (1912) of _The "Settlement" Cook Book_ contains two
advertisements from manufacturers of "refrigerators", namely Kiefer-Haessler
Hardware Co. and McCray Referigerator Co., both of Milwaukee.  There is no
way of telling from the ads whether these are mechanical refrigerators or
merely iceboxes.

Also, as a period piece, there is an ad for "Hoover Suction Sweepers", sold
by the Hoover Suction Sweeper Co. of New Berlin, Ohio.  (MWCD10 gives 1903
for "vacuum cleaner").

     - Jim Landau


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Dec 17 14:02:36 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:02:36 -0500
Subject: up a stump/calculate
In-Reply-To: <p05101024ba242bd9ffa6@[10.0.1.2]>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.090236.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Does anyone know if 'up a stump' as an idiom and 'I calculate' in the
>sense of 'I suppose' are used in Appalachian speech?  The sources I
>have found (DARE and the Dictionary of American Regionalisms) suggest
>that both are chiefly Northern.  Additionally, the idiom usually
>means 'to be pregnant'.  Can it have a more general meaning of simply
>'to be in trouble'?

"Up a stump" -- similar to "stumped" -- has a general sense of "perplexed"
or so (MW3: "perplexed", "nonplussed") (RHUD: "at a loss", "embarrassed",
"perplexed"). I don't know that this is regionally restricted. I've never
encountered the "pregnant" sense but it seems euphemistic like "in trouble".

Seems like the Appalachian version would be "reckon" instead of "calculate".

Just my casual notions.

-- Doug Wilson


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 17 15:25:40 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 10:25:40 -0500
Subject: /ei/ ~ /i:/ in "Kean"
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.102540.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My wife asks:

When I was listening to NPR last night, the reader said "Thomas Kane"
had been appointed to head the commission investigating 9/11. Who?
"The former governer of New Jersey" she went on. Gee, I thought, isn't
that Thomas Kean, pronounced "Keen"?

It is indeed. So my question is, did the reader misread her text, or are
there places where it is sometimes hard to distinguish a long e from a
long a?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Dec 17 15:44:06 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 10:44:06 -0500
Subject: /ei/ ~ /i:/ in "Kean"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212171024580.80346853-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.104406.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark,

There is indeed if you suffer from established northernism, but they
remain quite distinct for southern US speakers. As is well-known (in
the so-called Southern Vowel Shift), /ay/ monophthongizes and shifts
front (so that "rhyme" sounds like something between "rom" and
"ram"). This leaves the /ay/ slot open, and /ey/ (what you call "long
a") lowers its onset, and, straynge to say, /ey/ sounds like /ay/.
Once /ey/ has fallen to /ay/, its space is vacated and the onset of
/iy/ ( what you call "long e") lowers into /ey/ space, giving just
the Kean ----> Kane result you are looking for.

dInIs.

>My wife asks:
>
>When I was listening to NPR last night, the reader said "Thomas Kane"
>had been appointed to head the commission investigating 9/11. Who?
>"The former governer of New Jersey" she went on. Gee, I thought, isn't
>that Thomas Kean, pronounced "Keen"?
>
>It is indeed. So my question is, did the reader misread her text, or are
>there places where it is sometimes hard to distinguish a long e from a
>long a?
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel
>    Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Dec 17 15:46:31 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 10:46:31 -0500
Subject: Namphrik and Ngapee (1874)
In-Reply-To: <2717A860.3C16CE01.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.104631.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2002 at 08:26:49PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> THE LAND OF THE WHITE ELEPHANT:
> TRAVELS, ADVENTURES AND DISCOVERIES IN BURMA, SIAM, CAMBODIE, AND COCHIN-CHINA
> by Frank Vincent
> New York:  Harper and Brothers
> 1874
>
>    I read the 1884 book.  It has a 70-page supplement.  I'm sure the 1874 book is the same thing without the supplement, but I didn't have time to request it.
>    OED has an 1854 "ngapee" under its entry for "balachong."  I don't know what the revised OED has planned for this "N" entry.  "Ngapee" is from Burma.
>

We have a 1835 cite for _ngapi_.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 17 15:56:11 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 10:56:11 -0500
Subject: /ei/ ~ /i:/ in "Kean"
In-Reply-To: <a05010400ba24f4a95dfc@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.105611.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

#Mark,
#
#There is indeed if you suffer from established northernism, but they
#remain quite distinct for southern US speakers. As is well-known (in
#the so-called Southern Vowel Shift), /ay/ monophthongizes and shifts
#front (so that "rhyme" sounds like something between "rom" and
#"ram"). This leaves the /ay/ slot open, and /ey/ (what you call "long
#a") lowers its onset, and, straynge to say, /ey/ sounds like /ay/.
#Once /ey/ has fallen to /ay/, its space is vacated and the onset of
#/iy/ ( what you call "long e") lowers into /ey/ space, giving just
             ***

Not me, but my wife, highly literate but not a phonologist. I should've
added quote prefixes to her lines.

#the Kean ----> Kane result you are looking for.

Thank you.


#dInIs.
#
#>My wife asks:
#>
#>When I was listening to NPR last night, the reader said "Thomas Kane"
#>had been appointed to head the commission investigating 9/11. Who?
#>"The former governer of New Jersey" she went on. Gee, I thought, isn't
#>that Thomas Kean, pronounced "Keen"?
#>
#>It is indeed. So my question is, did the reader misread her text, or are
#>there places where it is sometimes hard to distinguish a long e from a
#>long a?
#>
#>-- Mark A. Mandel
#>    Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 17 16:36:39 2002
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:36:39 EST
Subject: /ei/ ~ /i:/ in "Kean"
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.113639.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Reagan
Yeats
great
yea
break
steak

I believe Tom pronounces his last name a la Irlandais

Dale Coye
Princeton, NJ


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Dec 17 16:36:33 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 08:36:33 -0800
Subject: /ei/ ~ /i:/ in "Kean"
In-Reply-To: <a05010400ba24f4a95dfc@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.083633.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

However, in this case the NPR reader was neither misreading the name nor
giving it the pronunciation of a region "where it is sometimes hard to
distinguish a long e from a long a."  Thomas Kean was governor when I lived
in N.J., and his name was always pronounced [ke:n].

Peter Mc.

--On Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:44 AM -0500 "Dennis R. Preston"
<preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU> wrote:

> Mark,
>
> There is indeed if you suffer from established northernism, but they
> remain quite distinct for southern US speakers. As is well-known (in
> the so-called Southern Vowel Shift), /ay/ monophthongizes and shifts
> front (so that "rhyme" sounds like something between "rom" and
> "ram"). This leaves the /ay/ slot open, and /ey/ (what you call "long
> a") lowers its onset, and, straynge to say, /ey/ sounds like /ay/.
> Once /ey/ has fallen to /ay/, its space is vacated and the onset of
> /iy/ ( what you call "long e") lowers into /ey/ space, giving just
> the Kean ----> Kane result you are looking for.
>
> dInIs.
>
>> My wife asks:
>>
>> When I was listening to NPR last night, the reader said "Thomas Kane"
>> had been appointed to head the commission investigating 9/11. Who?
>> "The former governer of New Jersey" she went on. Gee, I thought, isn't
>> that Thomas Kean, pronounced "Keen"?
>>
>> It is indeed. So my question is, did the reader misread her text, or are
>> there places where it is sometimes hard to distinguish a long e from a
>> long a?
>>
>> -- Mark A. Mandel
>>    Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>       Asian & African Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> phone: (517) 353-9290



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 17 16:56:26 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:56:26 -0500
Subject: /ei/ ~ /i:/ in "Kean"
In-Reply-To: <105.226176c6.2b30ac97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.115626.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dale Coye said:
>Reagan
>Yeats
>great
>yea
>break
>steak
>
>I believe Tom pronounces his last name a la Irlandais
>

Exactly. There are still pockets in Ireland where reflexes of Middle
English /E:/ are /e(i)/ rather than /i/. John Harris and others have
written on this. I lived in the NY metro area for most of Kean's
governorship, and his name was always pronounced /e/.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Mon Dec 16 22:49:19 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:49:19 -0800
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.144919.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Too bad gramps invested in Pioneer Aviation--if he only woulda listened to Cole Porter, we coulda been rich.  Dang!!!
Fritz

>>> stevekl at PANIX.COM 12/16/02 07:55AM >>>
What amazes me most about Cole Porter is how, even in 1934, he knew which
items would have staying power. When you consider all of the brand names
around then that have since evaporated, it's extremely prescient on his
part to have chosen brands that now, in 2002, are still around:

You're the top! You're a Waldorf salad.
You're the top! You're a Berlin ballad.
You're a baby grand of a lady and a gent.
You're an old dutch master, You're Mrs. Aster,
You're Pepsodent.

  or

You're the top! You're a dance in Bali.
You're the top! You're a hot tamale.
You're an angel, you simply too, too, too diveen,
You're a Botticelli, You're Keats, You're Shelley,
You're Ovaltine.



-- Steve


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Dec 17 18:21:40 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 13:21:40 -0500
Subject: /ei/ ~ /i:/ in "Kean"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212171054080.76078531-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.132140.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I did not mean to suggest that there was any shame attached to
>calling /iy/ "long e." Some of my best friends.....

dInIs

>On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>#Mark,
>#
>#There is indeed if you suffer from established northernism, but they
>#remain quite distinct for southern US speakers. As is well-known (in
>#the so-called Southern Vowel Shift), /ay/ monophthongizes and shifts
>#front (so that "rhyme" sounds like something between "rom" and
>#"ram"). This leaves the /ay/ slot open, and /ey/ (what you call "long
>#a") lowers its onset, and, straynge to say, /ey/ sounds like /ay/.
>#Once /ey/ has fallen to /ay/, its space is vacated and the onset of
>#/iy/ ( what you call "long e") lowers into /ey/ space, giving just
>              ***
>
>Not me, but my wife, highly literate but not a phonologist. I should've
>added quote prefixes to her lines.
>
>#the Kean ----> Kane result you are looking for.
>
>Thank you.
>
>
>#dInIs.
>#
>#>My wife asks:
>#>
>#>When I was listening to NPR last night, the reader said "Thomas Kane"
>#>had been appointed to head the commission investigating 9/11. Who?
>#>"The former governer of New Jersey" she went on. Gee, I thought, isn't
>#>that Thomas Kean, pronounced "Keen"?
>#>
>#>It is indeed. So my question is, did the reader misread her text, or are
>#>there places where it is sometimes hard to distinguish a long e from a
>#>long a?
>#>
>#>-- Mark A. Mandel
>#>    Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From bobbiestacy at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 17 18:55:17 2002
From: bobbiestacy at HOTMAIL.COM (bobbie stacy)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 13:55:17 -0500
Subject: Remove from list please
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.135517.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20021217/3fc1338a/attachment.html>

From dsgood at VISI.COM  Wed Dec 18 07:41:13 2002
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 01:41:13 -0600
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Word coinages in SF: threat or menace?
Message-ID: <WED.18.DEC.2002.014113.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From a discussion in the newsgroup rec.arts.sf.composition, a post of
mine:

------- Forwarded message follows -------

[snips]

> Good neologisms add a wonderful fillip to SF -- think of Jack Vance,
> Larry Niven, John Varley. Bad ones clunk every time they recur.
> Future slang & colloquial speech are particularly hard to do well.

See Allan Metcalf, _Predicting New Words: the secrets of their
success_; Houghton Mifflin, 2002.  The author is Executive Secretary
of the American Dialect Society.

>>From the American Dialect Society's website --
http://www.americandialect.com -- there are links to current studies
of various American and Canadian dialects, including trends in
pronunciation.

One thing to keep in mind -- many groups within any complex society
will have their own words. For example, Republican Party use of
"Democrat Party" rather than "Democratic Party".  For another
political example: in a memorial book on Bill Brust (Steve Brust's
father), his opposition to pabloism within the Socialist Workers
Party is mentioned more than once before there's any explanation of
what that means. (_Defending Principles: The Political Legacy of Bill
Brust_ by Bill Brust, Jean Brust (Editor) Mehring Books; ISBN:
0929087666; (November 1993)_).

It's hard to get the political dialect of a group you oppose right.

It's also hard to get _current_ regional dialects right. For your own
dialect, there's the problem that you won't hear it the way other
people do. For dialects other than your own -- well, I can think of
two English writers who've gotten American English right: Rudyard
Kipling and Clive Barker. (A tip for Brits -- read the "American"
dialog in John Brunner's _Day of The Star Cities_/Age of Miracles_.
If you don't spot any imperfections, then you'll have trouble getting
American dialog right.  And Brunner was better than a lot of other
Brits at American dialog.) The ratio is probably about the same for
Americans writing British dialog. It may not be much better for
southern Floridians writing northern Florida characters.

English of the past also brings problems, even if it's not quoted.
In Jack Chalker's _Downtiming the Nightside_, two men listen to tape
recordings of Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson.  One remarks
that most people would be surprised to hear Franklin's Boston accent
and Jefferson's hill country accent. It seems likely to me that
Franklin's Boston accent would be rather different from any current
Boston accent.

There are books and recordings for actors who need to use current and
historical dialects.

------- End of forwarded message -------


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Dec 18 10:24:51 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 05:24:51 -0500
Subject: FW: Using the BNC
Message-ID: <WED.18.DEC.2002.052451.0500.>

What Michael Q observed below, in response to Jonathon G's point, just about
nails it, in brief, re the value of a corpus to lexos (lexicographers).  One
could go on, but MQ has captured the essence of the value of a corpus to
lexicography -- a corpus allows research into collocational patterns and
other such phenomena that are at the heart of how the language works.  This
is impossible to research otherwise, at least not in any sort of depth (with
hats off to the BBI Combinatory Dict, etc.).

Other lexos, such as Sue Atkins and Patrick Hanks, are FAR more conversant
on the value of corpora to lexicography, so please seek them out -- or their
published works -- for more details and effusion.  Also, you could look at
the Intro to either the New Oxford Dictionary of English (UK), or its
transatlantic cousin, the New Oxford American Dictionary.  Both of these are
corpus-based, and, I think, the first general dicts to be corpus-based (the
Collins Cobuild is not a general dict, strictly speaking).

If I were to embark on a new general (not historical) dictionary project,
working from a "blank piece of paper", and were given a choice of having
either a good general corpus or a citation file, I would absolutely choose
the corpus -- in a heartbeat.  One can get citational evidence from OED,
MW3, etc., and can also do Googling and the like for specific word/sense
research.  But if you want to look at the core of the language down into the
nitty-gritty details, you can't beat a good, solid, contemporary corpus, as
long as it is extensive enough -- say, 100 million words AT LEAST.  The
bigger, the better.

Frank Abate

******************************
Jonathon Green wrote:

> what it does not do, however, is give a page number for the
> material cited. It gives a page range (presumably those read for
> the Corpus), e.g. 'pp. 62-165' and the number of  's-units' and the
> total word count, but, as I say, no page number as such. This, for
> my purposes, and I would imagine those of other lexicographers,
> renders it more interesting than practically helpful.

I don't use it (I don't have access to it), but I do use the cut-down
CD-ROM version that was produced some years ago. My understanding is
that its great value, as with other corpora, lies in the opportunity
it gives to identify and rank collocations and to assess the relative
importance and frequency of various forms in a balanced image of one
regional type of English.

As others have mentioned, this is something that a search of Google
cannot so easily do, since there are all sorts of systemic biases in
the material that it indexes. Where Google scores over corpora,
however, is that it is a different kind of snapshot, one of current
English that is to a significant degree free from the strictures of
good taste and editing. I've found it immensely useful, for example,
when trying to judge whether a form has gained wide currency as a
folk etymology (chaise lounge, bare with me, without further adieux,
etc).


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From sylvar at VAXER.NET  Wed Dec 18 13:34:22 2002
From: sylvar at VAXER.NET (Ben Ostrowsky)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 05:34:22 -0800
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Word coinages in SF: threat or menace?
In-Reply-To: <3DFFD239.27486.116A17A@localhost>
Message-ID: <WED.18.DEC.2002.053422.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> It may not be much better for southern Floridians writing northern
> Florida characters.

It probably isn't -- North Florida is part of the South, but South Florida
is about as far as you can get from it, culturally and (to my ear)
linguistically.  I had a LOT of adjusting to do when I moved from Miami
Springs, where I grew up, to Gainesville.

Ben


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Wed Dec 18 17:20:10 2002
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:20:10 -0500
Subject: The ANC (was: Using the BNC)
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAKENADGAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.18.DEC.2002.122010.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Anyone who is not aware that there is a consortium building an American
equivalent to the BNC should check out
http://americannationalcorpus.org/

A corpus is an invaluable tool that enhances and facilitates a
lexicographer's ability to analyze the behavior of language. It doesn't
replace citation cards/an electronic citation bank for etymological
purposes or for illustrations of the uses of words that predate the range
on the corpus. I would argue, however, that it should replace citations as
a main source of example sentences for uses that fall within the date range
represented in the corpus, particularly for the core of the language--the
most common words that are under-represented in citation banks because they
are not "interesting" as a focus of antedatings or neologisms. Corpora vary
according to their collection criteria: some are synchronic and some are
diachronic, with varying spans of years; some focus only on, say, newspaper
text, and others strive for a balanced range. The BNC (and the nascent ANC)
contains everything from highly edited text from scholarly journals to
ephmera. The ANC will contain e-mail. So it's not accurate to say that all
the texts in corpora are edited.

The key difference between a corpus and a bank of citation cards is that
citations center around a term that stuck out to the citation gatherer for
any number of reasons, and the surrounding context is usually quite short
(less than 250 words); a corpus, in contrast, contains long stretches of
uninterrupted text. This makes a corpus a superior tool for analyzing
frequency of use of common terms (invaluable for second language learners'
dictionaries), collocational behavior, and usage patterns.

People have argued that if a citation bank is in electronic format, it
amounts to a corpus, but I disagree: the stretches of text are simply too
short to attempt any meaningful analysis of discourse markers, argument
threads, and other rhetorical devices such as the way people set up stories
they are about to tell. It's very difficult to persuade people until they
sit down and actually USE a corpus--try, for example, to write the entry
for "set" using citation cards AND a corpus. I find that all doubt about
the value of a corpus disappears after that exercise.

Wendalyn Nichols
(advisor to the ANC consortium, and British-trained lexicographer)

At 05:24 AM 12/18/02 -0500, Frank Abate wrote:
>What Michael Q observed below, in response to Jonathon G's point, just about
>nails it, in brief, re the value of a corpus to lexos (lexicographers).  One
>could go on, but MQ has captured the essence of the value of a corpus to
>lexicography -- a corpus allows research into collocational patterns and
>other such phenomena that are at the heart of how the language works.  This
>is impossible to research otherwise, at least not in any sort of depth (with
>hats off to the BBI Combinatory Dict, etc.).
>
>Other lexos, such as Sue Atkins and Patrick Hanks, are FAR more conversant
>on the value of corpora to lexicography, so please seek them out -- or their
>published works -- for more details and effusion.  Also, you could look at
>the Intro to either the New Oxford Dictionary of English (UK), or its
>transatlantic cousin, the New Oxford American Dictionary.  Both of these are
>corpus-based, and, I think, the first general dicts to be corpus-based (the
>Collins Cobuild is not a general dict, strictly speaking).
>
>If I were to embark on a new general (not historical) dictionary project,
>working from a "blank piece of paper", and were given a choice of having
>either a good general corpus or a citation file, I would absolutely choose
>the corpus -- in a heartbeat.  One can get citational evidence from OED,
>MW3, etc., and can also do Googling and the like for specific word/sense
>research.  But if you want to look at the core of the language down into the
>nitty-gritty details, you can't beat a good, solid, contemporary corpus, as
>long as it is extensive enough -- say, 100 million words AT LEAST.  The
>bigger, the better.
>
>Frank Abate
>
>******************************
>Jonathon Green wrote:
>
> > what it does not do, however, is give a page number for the
> > material cited. It gives a page range (presumably those read for
> > the Corpus), e.g. 'pp. 62-165' and the number of  's-units' and the
> > total word count, but, as I say, no page number as such. This, for
> > my purposes, and I would imagine those of other lexicographers,
> > renders it more interesting than practically helpful.
>
>I don't use it (I don't have access to it), but I do use the cut-down
>CD-ROM version that was produced some years ago. My understanding is
>that its great value, as with other corpora, lies in the opportunity
>it gives to identify and rank collocations and to assess the relative
>importance and frequency of various forms in a balanced image of one
>regional type of English.
>
>As others have mentioned, this is something that a search of Google
>cannot so easily do, since there are all sorts of systemic biases in
>the material that it indexes. Where Google scores over corpora,
>however, is that it is a different kind of snapshot, one of current
>English that is to a significant degree free from the strictures of
>good taste and editing. I've found it immensely useful, for example,
>when trying to judge whether a form has gained wide currency as a
>folk etymology (chaise lounge, bare with me, without further adieux,
>etc).
>
>
>--
>Michael Quinion
>Editor, World Wide Words
>E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
>Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>
>
>
>For more information:http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dsna/index.html
>Post message: DSNA at yahoogroups.com
>Unsubscribe: DSNA-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Dec 18 22:56:42 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:56:42 -0500
Subject: Ngapi/Gnapee & Balachong (1830)(or 1825?)
Message-ID: <WED.18.DEC.2002.175642.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We have a 1835 cite for _ngapi_.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

---------------------------------------------------------------
THE MODERN TRAVELLER.
A DESCRIPTION, GEOGRAPHICAL, HISTORICAL, AND TOPOGRAPHICAL, OF THE VARIOUS COUNTRIES OF THE GLOBE.
IN THIRTY VOLUMES.
by Josiah Conder
Volume the Eleventh
Burmah, Siam, &c.
London: James Duncan
1830
(The NYPL also has these volumes from 1825.  I asked for that, but I was given all 1830 volumes.  You can check OCLC Worldcat for the volume dates--ed.)

Pg. 149:  *_Gnapee_ is a sort of sprat, which, "half-pickled, half putrid," is (Pg. 150--ed.) a favorite sauce with the Birmans, as a relish to their rice.  _Zeik_ signifies a landing-place.

Pg. 157:  They were loaded chiefly with _gnapee_ and salt-fish...

Pg. 182:  From Martaban are exported tin, rice, wild cardamums, edible birds' nests from the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, and a species of caviare called _balachong_, compounded from the spawn of fish and pounded shrimps, made into thin cakes: great quantities of this article are consumed in (Pg. 183--ed.) Ava and by the Malays, but it is very disgusting to a European palate.

Pg. 292:  The food of the Siamese consists chiefly of rice, which is eaten with a substance called _balachong_, "a strange compound of things savoury and loathsome, but in such general use, that no one thinks of eating without some portion of it."

---------------------------------------------------------------
THE MODERN TRAVELLER.
by Josiah Conder
VOLUME THE FOURTEENTH
TURKEY
1830

Pg. 138:  "From the coffee-houses, we walked on to a _tabagie_ near _Koum-Kapoussi_, the next gate, where we dined upon _kebab_.  This dish, which any palate would reckon a delicacy, consists of mutton chopped in small bits, either with or without herbs, larded with milk and (Pg. 139--ed.) butter, and fried upon a wooden skewer over a small brazier."

(No "Turkish Delight."  I'm looking for food items in all thirty volumes, but this takes some time--ed.)


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 19 00:09:46 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 19:09:46 EST
Subject: The ANC (was: Using the BNC)
Message-ID: <WED.18.DEC.2002.190946.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm missing something.

Can't the World Wide Web be considered as a corpus?  Of the English-language
Web pages, most are contemporary, most are colloquial, and most are unedited.
 There exist search tools (such as the Google search engine that has been
discussed on this thread).

            - James A. Landau (the "A" stands for "Amateur")


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 19 04:53:36 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 23:53:36 -0500
Subject: Escargot and Bordelaise Sauce (1883); Kalbi (1966)
Message-ID: <WED.18.DEC.2002.235336.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ESCARGOT AND BORDELAISE SAUCE

   OED and MERRIAM-WEBSTER both have 1892 for "escargot."  OED has 1892 for "Bordeaux mixture."  MERRIAM-WEBSTER has 1902 for "Bordelaise sauce."
   "Escargot" was either introduced or popularized by the Delmonico's restaurant in New York.

   3 February 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 11, col. 7:
   _SNAILS AS A TABLE LUXURY._
_The Learned Barber Discourses on a_
   _Gastronomical Topic--Escargot, or_
   _Snail, on the Bill at Delmonico's as_
   _Often as the French Steamers Come_
   _In, and Served at Sixty cents a Portion._
   (New York Sun.)
(...)
   Escargot is to a Frenchman what pumpkin pie and turkey are to the Yankee.
(...)
   "Are they sold in cans?"
   "Yes; they are put up like sardines.  There is the _pate escargot_, which is a sort of paste; and there is a _sirop escargot_, which is a liquid, and is delicious when served with Bordelaise sauce.  As I said before, the merit of _escargot_ as a food depends very much upon the sauce with which it is served.
(...)

   From HARPER'S WEEKLY, 1 September 1860, pg. 555:

. . . the
empire was ransacked for the finest and fattest
specimens. The practice of fattening snails for the
table lasted for many centuries; and there were to
be found many establishments for this purpose,
known as escargotieres, in France, Belgium, Swit-
zerland, and Austria, during the last century.
     Like the frog, the snail never found many ad-
mirers in England as a comestible; but in France,
especially . . .

   A little earlier is MAKING OF AMERICA (Michigan, Books), William Makepeace Thackeray, PUNCH'S PRIZE NOVELISTS: THE FAT CONTRIBUTOR, AND TRAVELS IN LONDON (NY: D. Appleton and Company, 1853), pg. 80, "Over a _salmi d'escargot_ at the Coventry..."
  Also a little earlier is MAKING OF AMERICA (Michigan, Periodicals), APPLETON'S JOURNAL, January 1879, pages & &8, February 1879, pages 99 & 102.
  These last two, however, are European "escargot" cites.
  MAKING OF AMERICA (Michigan, Periodicals) has THE GALAXY, October 1867, pg. 150, "Mushrooms sautee, a la Bordelaise," and THE GALAXY, April 1868, pg. 475, "ecrivesses a la Bordelaise."

---------------------------------------------------------------
KALBI

   Kalbi, or Kal bi, are Korean short ribs, and I saw them in many places in Hawaii.  There is no OED entry.  "Korean short ribs" has over 8,000 Google hits.

   30 December 1966, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 29:
   ...a well conceived menu that also lists several Korean dishes including bulkoki (broiled marinated beef) and kalbi (broiled short ribs of beef).
(Tamura Restaurant on Liberty Street--ed.)

   January 1971, GOURMET magazine:
   Short ribs, broiled,
      Korean (Kalbi Kai)...44


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 19 07:14:51 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 02:14:51 -0500
Subject: Gnapee/Ngapi (1800); Mohinga (1963)
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.021451.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   This shows just how foreign food spellings can vary.  I never would have looked for "gnapee" for "ngapi" on a computer database.
   OED certainly should have added "Mohinga."  This is a national dish of Burma, but I didn't see it in the 19th century.  "Mohinga" has an entry in THE OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD.

---------------------------------------------------------------
AN ACCOUNT OF AN EMBASSY TO THE KINGDOM OF AVA
IN THE YEAR 1795
by Michael Symes
London: W. Bulmer and Co.
1800
New Delhi: Asian Education Services
1995

Pg. 501 (GLOSSARY):
_Gnapee_, a species of Sprat which the Birmans pickle.

---------------------------------------------------------------
MICHAEL SYMES:
JOURNEY OF HIS SECOND EMBASSY TO THE COURT OF AVA IN 1802
edited with introduction and notes by D. G. E. Hall
London: George Allen & Unwin Ltd.
1955

Pg. 171:  ...ghee*...
*Hindi word for boiled butter in universal use in Indian cookery.

Pg. 241:  ...gnapee*...
*Pickled prawns, the most popular condiment eaten with curry in Burma.

---------------------------------------------------------------
JOURNAL OF AN EMBASSY FROM THE GOVERNOR GENERAL OF INDIA TO THE COURT OF AVA
by John Crawfurd
Second edition
London: Henry Colburn
1834

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 172:  He gets besides _ngapi_, vegetables, and spiceries, being always fed with his employer and family.

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 176:  Sea-fish was commonly cured in the form of Ngapi, or "bruised fish," the offensive condiment which I have already mentioned, and which is an article of universal use throughout the kingdowm.

---------------------------------------------------------------
A PERSONAL NARRATIVE OF TWO YEARS' IMPRISONMENT IN BURMAH
by Henry Gouger
Second edition
London: John Murray
1862

Pg. 55:  ...a daily mess of boiled rice, with _ngapwee_ and wild vegetables, formed a meagre fare to one who had been long used to a generous one.

---------------------------------------------------------------
THROUGH BURMAH TO WESTERN CHINE:
BEING NOTES OF A JOURNEY IN 1863
by Clement Williams
Edinburgh: William Blackwood and Sons
1868

Pg. 61:  Large quantities are dried and made into "Ngapee,"*...
*_Ngapee_--a kind of fish-paste greatly relished by the Burmese.

---------------------------------------------------------------
BURMA, PAST AND PRESENT
by Lieut.-Gen. Albert Fytche
London: C. Kegan Paul and Co.
1878

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 77:   ...amongst the latter, and without which no Burmese considers he has made a good dinner is _nga-pee_, a potent preparation, somewhat resembling anchovy paste, composed of prawns and fish fry, pounded with chillies, garlic, and other condiments.

---------------------------------------------------------------
BRITISH BURMA AND ITS PEOPLE:
BEING SKETCHES OF NATIVE MANNERS, CUSTOMS, AND RELIGION
by Capt. C. J. E. S. Forbes
London: John Murray
1878

Pg. 83:  "Nga-pee" means simply pounded fish, and differs in quality, from the best, made of shrimps, being the same as the "balachong" of the Malay Straits (a kind of shrimp paste) to the rankest filth used by the mass of the population.

---------------------------------------------------------------
THE BURMAN: HIS LIFE AND NOTIONS
by Shway Yoe (pseud. of Sir James George Scott--ed.)
London: Macmillan and Co., Limited
First edition 1882
Second edition 1896
Third edition 1910

Pg. 280:
CHAPTER XXVII
NGAPI
THERE are few articles of food which meet with more energetic denunciation than the favourite Burman condiment, ngapi, which means literally pressed fish.

---------------------------------------------------------------
WE THE BURMESE:
VOICES FROM BURMA
edited by Helen G. Trager
New York: Frederick A. Praeger
1969

Pg. 288 (GLOSSARY):
   _Monhinga_ (mo hing'ah) a fish soup; sold by street peddlers ar roadside stalls or charcoal-fire pots.
(...)
   _Ngapi_ (nap pee') a paste of dried salted fish, which adds flavor to many dishes.

---------------------------------------------------------------
YMCA BANGKOK, THAILAND
COOK BOOK
1963

Pg. 89:
   _Mohinga--Burmese National Dish_
   Serves 20
Ingredients
   9 lbs. rice noodles (Khanom Kyin)
   2 1/2 lbs. Pla Doke
   1 coconut
   1 1/2 oz. salted fish (Pla la)
   14 oz. fish sauce (Nam pla)
   3 blades lemon grass
   3 1/2 oz. chillies
   1 tsp. turmeric powder
   fresh ginger
   2 oz. garlic
   1 1/2 lb. onions, 1/2 finely sliced
   3 1/2 oz. Baysun
   4 oz. rice flour
   14 oz. oil
   6 duck eggs (hard boiled)
   9 inches Banana trunk (if unprocurable, increase amount of onion)
Directions
   Boil fish with 2 blades lemon grass, fish sauce, 3 chillies, salted fish, turmeric powder with water just to cover the fish.  When done, take the fish out and remove the bones.  Pound the garlic, the ginger, 1 blade lemon grass, and 1/2 of remaining chillies (other half to be powdered and served in dish at table).  Fry to golden brown 1/2 onions, sliced.  Boil up the oil, add the pounded ingredients.  When they give forth an aroma, add the fish.  Remove and set aside as accompaniment.  Boil together coconut milk, fish broth, and 1 gallon water.  Mix the rice flour and the Baysun each with a little water, and add to the liquid ingredients.  Boil about 1/2 hour.  Clean, peel and slice the tender inner layers of the banana trunk.  Add this and 1/2 of onions cut in quarters.  When tender, add fish and the (Pg. 90--ed.) hard-boiled eggs cut in quarters.  The hinga, the above gravy, is served hot with rice noodles, at table, in separate serving dishes, only combined in the individual servings.
   Powdered chillies and fried onion slivers or rings, lime wedges served as accompaniments at table.
   (Baysun may be purchased at Indian spice shops).

---------------------------------------------------------------
YMCA BANGKOK, THAILAND
COOK BOOK
1965

Pg. 28:  We must not end this chapter without mentioning nam pla which is an extract of fermented fish.  This sauce, which is more tasty than it sounds, is used in many Thai dishes.


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Thu Dec 19 09:30:40 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:30:40 -0000
Subject: The ANC (was: Using the BNC)
In-Reply-To: <16.29feabaa.2b32684a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.093040.0000.>

James A. Landau wrote:

> Can't the World Wide Web be considered as a corpus?  Of the
> English-language Web pages, most are contemporary, most are
> colloquial, and most are unedited. There exist search tools (such
> as the Google search engine that has been discussed on this
> thread).

It's an invaluable research tool for certain purposes.

But, as I mentioned earlier, the text on the Web is full of systemic
biases that make using it for corpus purposes a risky business. It's
impossible, for example, to restrict a search to a specific national
English form (or even text produced by native English speakers), to a
particular register, or even a given period (there's a surprisingly,
albeit pleasantly, large amount of historical material online, even
outside the formal e-text collections such as Project Gutenberg).

The tools to research it in the same way as one does a corpus don't
exist; I'm not at all sure how easy it would be to create them for
such an inchoate mass of material.

Having said that, I've used Web searches - for example - to get a
feel for the relative frequency of occurrence of terms, though even
here the presence of so many glossaries and Weird Words sites (guilty
as charged, M'Lud) biases the results substantially for rare items.


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Dec 19 06:42:41 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 01:42:41 -0500
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.014241.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can someone help this man?

Début du message réexpédié :

> De: David Skinner <david.skinner at tsd.state.tx.us>
> Date: Wed 18 Dec 2002  21:00:10 America/New_York
> À: <gbarrett at americandialect.org>
> Objet: standard passage
> Répondre à: David Skinner <david.skinner at tsd.state.tx.us>
>
> Did the ADS ever use something called the standard passage. A ling
> professor once referred to it and played some examples of various
> people reading it.
>
> If this rings a bell, i'd like to find a copy of it. Any help would be
> greatly appreciated.
>
>
> Thank you
>
>


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec 19 13:27:59 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 08:27:59 -0500
Subject: FW: The ANC (was: Using the BNC)
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.082759.0500.>

Michael Q replied to James L's query as shown below.

I would merely add that by "tools to research it" Michael means, in part,
software that will display related "hits" in concordance format, sortable to
the left or to the right of the key word/phrase, and sortable to a
specifiable range of letters or words.  Also, proximity searches are
essential.

If someone could write software that would do just THAT much (there are
other useful corpus-searching tools, too, but the ones mentioned would do,
for a start) with Web data, then yes, the Web would be a corpus, in the lexo
sense.  It would not be "balanced", but it would be a corpus, and MUCH more
useful than it is now for lexo research (lexical, too).

If you need to see what concordance format looks like, see the Intro to
either the New Oxford Dict of English (UK) or the New Oxford American Dict.
Many US libraries have the latter.

Oh, btw, even if the Web were a corpus, we would still need researchers such
as Fred Shapiro and Barry Popik, not to mention a bunch of lexos and
linguists.  And we would not throw out our citation files -- different tool,
for a different purpose.

Frank Abate

************************************

James A. Landau wrote:

> Can't the World Wide Web be considered as a corpus?  Of the
> English-language Web pages, most are contemporary, most are
> colloquial, and most are unedited. There exist search tools (such
> as the Google search engine that has been discussed on this
> thread).

It's an invaluable research tool for certain purposes.

But, as I mentioned earlier, the text on the Web is full of systemic
biases that make using it for corpus purposes a risky business. It's
impossible, for example, to restrict a search to a specific national
English form (or even text produced by native English speakers), to a
particular register, or even a given period (there's a surprisingly,
albeit pleasantly, large amount of historical material online, even
outside the formal e-text collections such as Project Gutenberg).

The tools to research it in the same way as one does a corpus don't
exist; I'm not at all sure how easy it would be to create them for
such an inchoate mass of material.

Having said that, I've used Web searches - for example - to get a
feel for the relative frequency of occurrence of terms, though even
here the presence of so many glossaries and Weird Words sites (guilty
as charged, M'Lud) biases the results substantially for rare items.


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From jkossuth at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Thu Dec 19 14:49:38 2002
From: jkossuth at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (James Kossuth)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:49:38 -0500
Subject: [DSNA] The Web as a Corpus
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAOENMDGAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.094938.0500.>

There is a free downloadable app that is supposed to make
the Web somewhat more valuable as a corpus and is
available at http://www.miniappolis.com/.  It does provide
results in KWIC format.  I'ven't used it yet myself, but it
seems like it might be useful.

James.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 19 16:30:53 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:30:53 EST
Subject: The Web as a corpus
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.113053.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I found an answer to my (deliberately) naive query about using the Web as a
corpus.

>From the latest OED News:

"We have for several decades used electronic databases to aid this work,
notably the British National Corpus and Lexis-Nexis. Now, with the arrival of
the Internet, tens of thousands of scholarly texts and individual works of
literature are available to us in a searchable form.

"However, bigger isn't necessarily better: we need to be discriminating. A
search engine, such as Google, provides a scattergun approach, returning a
vast set of results with no indication of the date or reliability of sources.
We are therefore most interested in material that has been collected together
in databases, where we are able to carry out sophisticated searches (by date,
in proximity to other terms, etc.) and where we can rely on the provenance of
the information we are viewing."

          - Jim Landau


From GHurley at OVID.COM  Thu Dec 19 20:49:28 2002
From: GHurley at OVID.COM (Gerry Hurley)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:49:28 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.154928.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi,

I'm a librarian and my husband asked me if I could find out
the derivation of the word "oaktag" (that kind of heavy paper
we all used in kindergarten).  It's also called tagboard and
sometimes posterboard.  I'm drawing a blank. I've searched
the web, looked at art web sites; used the paper and pulp
encyclopedia, dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc.  I can find
definitions and explanations of what oaktag it, but I can't find
any info on why/how the word came into being.

Another librarian suggested that this group might be
able to help me.  Thanks in advance for any assistance
you might be able to provide.

Gerry Hurley
email:  ghurley at ovid.com


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 19 23:39:06 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:39:06 EST
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.183906.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In American Speech 59.1 for Spring 1984, Laurence Urdang has a paragraph
speculating on the etymology of "oaktag" : ". . . "oaktag" is a dark beige,
which may account for the "oak-" part of its name. In the 1930s and later,
shipping tags were often made of this material, typically with a hole at one
end, reinforced with a stiff red circular grommet and a short piece of cord
for tying to a package. It seems likely to me that the universal application
of the stock to such use accounts for the "-tag" part of "oaktag." This is,
of course, a folk eytmology -- but then, "oaktag" appears to be a folk name,
doesn't it?"

He notes that in a previous issue (57.3 for fall 1982, p 189), David Gold had
suggested that "oaktag" is a New York City (and Newark, New Jersey) word. But
FWIW, it's not in the Dictionary of American Regional English.

It is notable, also, that "oaktag" is not in the Oxford English Dictionary or
American Heritage or Merriam-Webster's Collegiate.

- Allan Metcalf


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec 20 00:14:28 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:14:28 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <12f.1e2e92cc.2b33b29a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.191428.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:

#In American Speech 59.1 for Spring 1984, Laurence Urdang has a paragraph
        [...]

#He notes that in a previous issue (57.3 for fall 1982, p 189), David Gold had
#suggested that "oaktag" is a New York City (and Newark, New Jersey) word. But
#FWIW, it's not in the Dictionary of American Regional English.

I knew the word growing up in NYC in the 50s-60s. I'm pretty sure I
learned it from my mother, who was an art teacher in the public high
schools. She had herself grown up in NYC (born 1922) and was an amateur
artist and an interior decorator before becoming a teacher.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Fri Dec 20 00:28:42 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:28:42 -0600
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.182842.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW on my end: I grew up in Minnesota, and have lived "Up North" (MN, MI,
WI) my whole life.  I had never heard it called "oaktag" until this question
came up.  Now, I have not been an elementary school art teacher either...
But to me, it has always been "tagboard" or "poster board".  This might lend
some more credence to the "NY-Thang" theory.  Where are you checking in
from, Gerry?  -- Millie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerry Hurley" <GHurley at OVID.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag


> Hi,
>
> I'm a librarian and my husband asked me if I could find out
> the derivation of the word "oaktag" (that kind of heavy paper
> we all used in kindergarten).  It's also called tagboard and
> sometimes posterboard.  I'm drawing a blank. I've searched
> the web, looked at art web sites; used the paper and pulp
> encyclopedia, dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc.  I can find
> definitions and explanations of what oaktag it, but I can't find
> any info on why/how the word came into being.


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec 20 00:56:52 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:56:52 -0500
Subject: The ANC (was: Using the BNC)
In-Reply-To: <3E0191C0.31324.31216A@localhost>
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.195652.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Michael Quinion wrote:

#The tools to research it in the same way as one does a corpus don't
#exist; I'm not at all sure how easy it would be to create them for
#such an inchoate mass of material.

This is an interesting semantic shift that I think is on-topic here.
"Inchoate" means -- used to mean? -- 'just beginning to take form'. ...
Ah; AHD4 says:

        >>>

1. In an initial or early stage; incipient. 2. Imperfectly formed or
developed: "a vague, inchoate idea".

        <<<

But almost every time I have seen it used in current writing, the sense
seems to be simply 'vague or formless'. I'm certain, without being able
to prove it, that for many people the sense is strongly influenced by
the visual similarity of the part after the prefix to "chaotic".

I'm not sure how you meant it, Michael, but the Web certainly isn't
'incipient' any more, and in your use above I think the sense I describe
fits somewhat better than AHD4's #2 -- but I can't be sure.

Lexies, are you keeping up with this development? Me, I've got my
prescriptivist hat on, and I'm agin it.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 20 01:06:21 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:06:21 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212191912390.80394054-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.200621.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote:

> #He notes that in a previous issue (57.3 for fall 1982, p 189), David
> Gold had #suggested that "oaktag" is a New York City (and Newark, New
> Jersey) word. But #FWIW, it's not in the Dictionary of American Regional
> English.
>
> I knew the word growing up in NYC in the 50s-60s. I'm pretty sure I

I also knew the word growing up on Long Island in the 1960s.  The earliest
on New York Times Historical is:

1965 _N.Y. Times_ 26 June 15 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers)  The youths
followed the shirt-sleeved candidate down Seventh Avenue, displaying
oaktag placards that read: "Lindsay -- a traitor to the G.O.P."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 01:17:06 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:17:06 EST
Subject: WOTY:  "All These Problems"
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.201706.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   No Word-of-theYear nominations yet?  Is everyone waiting for the very last
day?
   No "soccer mom" or "chad" or "9-11" really stands out.  Let me be the
first to nominate Trent Lott's now infamous phrase, "all these problems."
   Suggestions and comments on WOTY remain open.


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec 20 01:19:43 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:19:43 -0500
Subject: WOTY:  "All These Problems"
In-Reply-To: <69.3228eec2.2b33c992@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.201943.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

#   No "soccer mom" or "chad" or "9-11" really stands out.  Let me be the
#first to nominate Trent Lott's now infamous phrase, "all these problems."
#   Suggestions and comments on WOTY remain open.

"Weapons of mass destruction".

-- Mark A. Mandel


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 02:09:19 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:09:19 EST
Subject: Dogcatcher elections (1906); Fired With Enthusiasm (1932?); Chile
 con carne
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.210919.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DOGCATCHER ELECTIONS

   You used to hear this phrase all the time.  However, it seems to have
disappeared, with most of the dogcatchers.  Trent Lott's star has fallen so
fast, for example, that he "couldn't get elected dog-catcher."
   I didn't see it in the RHHDAS or in William Safire's POLITICAL DICTIONARY.
 It's not in the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG.
   I think it did start with the below-mentioned candidate.  I haven't
checked the WASHINGTON POST.


   10 October 1906, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 2:
      _Hearst in California._
   "Hearst couldn't be elected dog catcher in any part of my State," declared
State Treasurer Truman Reeves of California yesterday to Mayor McClellan, on
whom he paid a social call.

   1 April 1968, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 28:
   Of the President (LBJ--ed.), she said, "I think he saw the opposition
growing so great that he couldn't run for dog catcher and would rather go
down in history as having done his best than be defeated in November."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
FIRED WITH ENTHUSIASM

   Not to be confused with CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM, the HBO show by Larry David,
a co-creator of SEINFELD.   Perhaps Fred Shapiro has some thoughts on the
purported Vince Lombardi coinage.


   7 September 1970, NEW YORK TIMES, "Lombardi Without Tears" by Robert
Lipsyte, pg. 24:
   WIth the same personality and a lesser intelligence, Lombardi would never
have been able to tell men that they had better be "fired with enthusiasm or
you'll be fired with enthusiasm."

   16 September 1932, NEW YORK TIMES< pg. 16:
   Eugene Savage, mural painter, said that if the student going to the
American Academy in Rome "was not fired with enthusiasm, he should be fired
by the director."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
CHILE CON CARNE

   Supposedly, the first "chile con carne" citation is 1857.  Supposedly,
it's an American dish.  John Mariani's encyclopedia includes that famous
quotation that chile con carne is "a detestable food with a false Mexican
title which is sold in the United States from Texas to New York."
   So what do you make of this, which I came across today?


MEMOIRS OF THE MEXICAN REVOLUTION
by William Davis Robinson
Philadelphia: Lydia R. Bailey, printer
1820

Pg. 71:  ..."the end justifies the means."

Pg. 84:  ..._rancho_*...
*_Rancho_ signifies a farm...

Pg. 150:  ..._chile_ (capsicum_)...
Pg. 150:  For all culinary purposes, this vegetable is as essential to the
Mexican, as salt is to the European, and indeed more so, because a Mexican
would rather go without bread, than lack chile with his meat.

(Yes, no "chile con carne," but "chile with his meat" is close--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BORDELAISE SAUCE (continued)

   I added the WIlliam Makepeace Thackeray citation for "escargot," but left
off that he has one for "Bordelaise sauce" as well.  It's on LITERATURE
ONLINE and another database (MOA-Mich. books?).
   William Makepeace Thackeray, THE ADVENTURES OF PHILIP ON HIS WAY THROUGH
THE WORLD (1860; NY: Harper Brothers, 1862), pg. 144:  "Aren't you tired of
truffles and ecrevisses a la Bordelaise;..."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
PORTOBELLO MUSHROOMS

   The NEW YORK TIMES article is 23 October 1985, pg. C1, "Growing U.S. Taste
for Mushrooms."


From GHurley at OVID.COM  Fri Dec 20 02:37:21 2002
From: GHurley at OVID.COM (Gerry Hurley)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:37:21 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.213721.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi Millie,

My husband and I both grew up in New York City (Manhattan).
We now live in Arlington, MA (near Boston).  The person who
asked my husband about the derivation of oaktag is a designer
he is working with on a project.  She lives in Connecticut.

Thanks to all of you for the fascinating and helpful responses.
If you ever have a "librarian" type question, do contact me.
I'll try to help.

Gerry Hurley


-----Original Message-----
From: Millie Webb
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Sent: 12/19/2002 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Derivation of the word oaktag

FWIW on my end: I grew up in Minnesota, and have lived "Up North" (MN,
MI,WI) my whole life.  I had never heard it called "oaktag" until this
question came up.  Now, I have not been an elementary school art teacher
either... But to me, it has always been "tagboard" or "poster board".  This
might lend some more credence to the "NY-Thang" theory.  Where are you
checking in from, Gerry?
-- Millie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerry Hurley" <GHurley at OVID.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag


> Hi,
>
> I'm a librarian and my husband asked me if I could find out
> the derivation of the word "oaktag" (that kind of heavy paper
> we all used in kindergarten).  It's also called tagboard and
> sometimes posterboard.  I'm drawing a blank. I've searched
> the web, looked at art web sites; used the paper and pulp
> encyclopedia, dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc.  I can find
> definitions and explanations of what oaktag it, but I can't find
> any info on why/how the word came into being.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 03:14:09 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:14:09 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.221409.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   16 January 1949, NEW YORK TIMES, classifieds, pg. F14:
PAPER PRODUCTS...oaktag board.

   2 June 1963, NEW YORK TIMES, classified, pg. 155:
Oak tag all colors...GEM PAPER 594 Bway NY.

(I don't have time for an in-depth search because I'm leaving the country within 24 hours...COMPLETELY O.T.  _Now_ my Nets beat the Lakers!--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 03:26:55 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:26:55 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag (1922?)
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.222655.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From OCLC WORLDCAT:


 Reconnaissance map of state road no. 5, September 1922,
Washington (State).

1922
English  Book broadside.
[Olympia,
Ownership: Check the catalogs in your library.
Libraries that Own Item: 1

External Links:  Check availability

More Like This: Advanced options ...
Title: Reconnaissance map of state road no. 5, September 1922,
Corp Author(s): Washington (State). Dept. of Highways.
Publication: [Olympia,
Year: 1922
Description: broadside.
Language: English
 SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Roads -- Washington (State)
Note(s): Hand-drawn map, accompanied by 48 3 x 6 in. photos along the route, mounted on a sheet of oaktag.
Responsibility: Chas. I. Signer.
Document Type: Book
Entry: 19921214
Update: 19990712
Accession No: OCLC: 41822215
Database: WorldCat


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 03:36:09 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:36:09 EST
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.223609.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think this must refer to the rat story that Fred Cassidy used at DARE? My 
memory is pretty hazy about this, however. 


In a message dated 12/19/02 8:12:17 AM, gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes:


> Can someone help this man?
> 
> Début du message réexpédié :
> 
> > De: David Skinner <david.skinner at tsd.state.tx.us>
> > Date: Wed 18 Dec 2002  21:00:10 America/New_York
> > À: <gbarrett at americandialect.org>
> > Objet: standard passage
> > Répondre à: David Skinner <david.skinner at tsd.state.tx.us>
> >
> > Did the ADS ever use something called the standard passage. A ling
> > professor once referred to it and played some examples of various
> > people reading it.
> >
> > If this rings a bell, i'd like to find a copy of it. Any help would be
> > greatly appreciated.
> >
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> >
> 
> 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 07:55:27 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:55:27 -0500
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938); Pozole (1934); Bint El Sahn (1932)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.025527.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BUMPY STEW

   I was looking for something else, but never mind.  I have a soft spot for the food of our women's colleges.


   July 1938, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, pg. 25, cols. 1-2:
   Silhouetted there against the dusk were the iron words "St. Mary's Female Seminary."
   A SEMINARY SERVES BUMPY STEW
   The principal asked me to dinner.  "We're having a seminary special, bumpy stew."
   The school was founded about a hundred years ago to give life again to this long-forsaken site, and to help keep alive in Maryland the spirit of religious tolerance.  DIrectors are Methodist, Catholic, and Episcopalian, the faiths then and now represented in the county.
   "Our teachers--they're of many creeds--come from everywhere," my hostess said.  "Girls must worship, but as they like.  We would accept Mohammedans or Buddhists.  I wish we had some.  Catholic, Jewish, or Presbyterian, they all like bumpy stew.  Married alumnae write for the recipe."
   "I'd like it myself," I said.
   "Fry chopped onions in butter until they're brown.  Then fry ground beef in the mixture until that's brown.  Sprinkle with flour; add milk, salt, and pepper.  Keep stirring until it gets bumpy.  Then," she added, "it's bumpy stew."

---------------------------------------------------------------
POZOLE

   December 1934, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, pg. 784, col. 2:
   Outside, several persons lay dozing, while an old woman stirred a caldron of boiling corn called _pozole_.

(From Central America...Does "pozole" exist yet or does one still need more proof?--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
NEW MEXICO "CHILI PROVERB"

   May 1938, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, "Nature Paints New Mexico," pg. 561 photo caption:
   "All a peon needs to furnish his house is a string of red peppers and the picture of a saint" is an old Southwest saying.  This colorful crop was picked near Espanola, not far from the Santa Clara Pueblo Indian Reservation.  "Chili con carne," or peppers and meat--with a tamale or enchilada of cornmeal--is a popular repast here as in Mexico.

---------------------------------------------------------------
BINT EL SAHN

   February 1932, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, pg. 231, col. 2:
   One of our favorite foods was _bint el sahn_, or "daughters of the dish."  This was brought in, still sizzling hot, in enormous covered woven baskets.
   Under the cover was layer after layer of very thin bread circles.  The indigo-turbaned servant next brought in a pitcher of steaming melted butter and poured it generously over the top and between the layers.  It was a delectable dish.


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Dec 20 08:29:40 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 00:29:40 -0800
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <12f.1e2e92cc.2b33b29a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.002940.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>He notes that in a previous issue (57.3 for fall 1982, p 189), David Gold had
>suggested that "oaktag" is a New York City (and Newark, New Jersey) word. But
>FWIW, it's not in the Dictionary of American Regional English.
>
>It is notable, also, that "oaktag" is not in the Oxford English Dictionary or
>American Heritage or Merriam-Webster's Collegiate.

When mentioning oaktag after moving to California, no one here had
ever heard of it.  They all used poster board or some such.  I
definitely got the feeling it was a New York City term (like sliding
pond?).

Rima


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Dec 20 09:24:24 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:24:24 -0000
Subject: The ANC (was: Using the BNC)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212191949410.80394054-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.092424.0000.>

Mark Mandel wrote:

> But almost every time I have seen it used in current writing, the
> sense seems to be simply 'vague or formless'. I'm certain, without
> being able to prove it, that for many people the sense is strongly
> influenced by the visual similarity of the part after the prefix to
> "chaotic".
>
> I'm not sure how you meant it, Michael, but the Web certainly
> isn't 'incipient' any more, and in your use above I think the sense
> I describe fits somewhat better than AHD4's #2 -- but I can't be
> sure.

Interesting point. Though the Web could well be described in the
OED's definition as "in an initial or early stage; hence elementary,
imperfect, undeveloped, immature", I used the word in the sense of a
disorganised mass of material. This sense has appeared in a number
of recent dictionaries, always as subsidiary senses: NODE ("confused
or incoherent"), SOED5 ("chaotic, confused"), RHWU ("not organized;
lacking order"), and in the MW unabridged ("disordered; incoherent;
unorganized").

The Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage says:

"A number of British commentators, beginning with Ivor Brown 1945
and running through Gowers in Fowler 1965, Howard 1977, and Bryson
1984, complain about the extension of meaning of inchoate from
'incipient, immature, or just beginning' (Howard's definitions) to
'amorphous, incoherent, or disorganized' (Howard again). A couple of
American commentators, Flesch 1964 and Shaw 1987, agree. But the
extended use is natural and probably inevitable: what is just begun
is also unfinished, incomplete, and often also disorganized or
incoherent. There is no need to bring forward a putative confusion
with chaotic to explain the development. And unfortunately for the
complainers, the extension of meaning was already three decades old
or more when Brown noticed it."

In confirmation of this last point, the editors cite material from
works that date back as far as 1916, written by the likes of T E
Lawrence, Thomas Wolfe, John Updike, and Norman Mailer.

Not yet mainstream, I agree, and probably sufficiently likely to
raise readers' hackles (like my recent use in the World Wide Words
newsletter of "gift" as a verb, which American subscribers hated) to
require care in deploying.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Dec 20 09:24:24 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:24:24 -0000
Subject: WOTY:  "All These Problems"
In-Reply-To: <69.3228eec2.2b33c992@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.092424.0000.>

Barry Popik wrote:

> No Word-of-theYear nominations yet?  Is everyone waiting for the
> very last day? No "soccer mom" or "chad" or "9-11" really stands
> out.  Let me be the first to nominate Trent Lott's now infamous
> phrase, "all these problems." Suggestions and comments on WOTY
> remain open.

Has anybody nominated "regime change"?


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Dec 20 06:03:26 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:03:26 -0500
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.010326.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From my dialectology notes it's called "Grip the Rat."  It's found in
several places.  Sumner Ives used the version found in Gleason's
overview of grammars, the title of which escapes me at this hour.  I
googled _Grip the rat_ and found nothing.

Regards,
David Barnhart


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 10:26:44 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:26:44 EST
Subject: WOTY Weapons; My Heart Is in My Hand or Mouth
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.052644.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WOTY WEAPONS

   "Weapons of mass destructions" is a bit old--not that that matters for
WOTY competition.
   I did a "weapons insp*" search in the online OED.  I was looking for
"weapons inspection(s)" and "weapons inspector(s)."  There were no hits.
These are not new, either, but perhaps deserve a look.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MY HEART IS IN MY HAND OR MOUTH

"My heart is in my hand...YEECH!"
--Tom Lehrer, "Masochism Tango"

"Architect Robert A. M. Stern compared the Seagram Building's artwork to the
Sistine Chapel and said, 'My heart is in my mouth, I'm so upset.'"
--NEW YORK OBSERVER, December 23-30, 2002. pg. 4, col. 1.

   At least someone's heart is in the right place.
   I did a "hand-to-mouth" Google search.  Hand (& Hands) wins 300-160 in
Google, 963-793 in Google Groups. Hands down.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
O.T. NEW YORK CITY

   It's good to get out of NYC at this time of the year, as those of you
coming to NYC for the MLA will soon learn.
   About two days ago, I got a Co-op memo.  Our taxes are increasing 18.5%.
Plus, we have a new terrorism insurance requirement that amounts to $188,000
a year.  That's about $1,000 a unit each year, just so we can collect in the
event we're all killed.  We're going bankrupt all over again.
   I hope you MLA-ers don't need to smoke...


From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Fri Dec 20 12:35:27 2002
From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:35:27 -0500
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
In-Reply-To: <msg57519.thr-81bed73d.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.073527.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Grip the Rat" dates back into at least the early 30s.  The name was later
changed to Arthur.  It was used in the DARE field wor, and the text may be
found in the article on pronunciation by Hartmann is DARE Volume I.




Quoting Barnhart <ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM>:

> From my dialectology notes it's called "Grip the Rat."  It's found in
> several places.  Sumner Ives used the version found in Gleason's
> overview of grammars, the title of which escapes me at this hour.  I
> googled _Grip the rat_ and found nothing.
>
> Regards,
> David Barnhart
> This message scanned by RAV anti-virus.
>



**************************
Terry Lynn Irons


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 13:31:28 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:31:28 EST
Subject: End of year request..
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.083128.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Would it be possible to configure the list-server so that "ADS" will appear
at the beginning of the subject line of every post?  I know this is possible
in the major-domo listserver; I don't know if it's an option in the LSOFT
listserv software used (I believe) by ADS-L.

It's not particularly important, but I belong to two other mailing lists
which have this feature, and it makes it quite convenient to be able to look
at my in-box and see which messages are from mailing lists.

      - James A. Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 13:34:41 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:34:41 EST
Subject: WOTY
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.083441.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An obvious candidate for 2002 Word-of-the-year is "Enron" used as a metaphor.

      - James A. Landau


From pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Fri Dec 20 13:40:36 2002
From: pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Peter Farruggio)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:40:36 -0800
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0212192004060.29666-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu >
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.054036.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


This was the common term for that posterboard material in the NYC schools
throughout my student career in the 1950s.  In fact I never knew of any
other name for it until I had non-native New Yorkers as teachers, sometime
in high school.


At 05:06 PM 12/19/02, you wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote:
>
> > #He notes that in a previous issue (57.3 for fall 1982, p 189), David
> > Gold had #suggested that "oaktag" is a New York City (and Newark, New
> > Jersey) word. But #FWIW, it's not in the Dictionary of American Regional
> > English.
> >
> > I knew the word growing up in NYC in the 50s-60s. I'm pretty sure I
>
>I also knew the word growing up on Long Island in the 1960s.  The earliest
>on New York Times Historical is:
>
>1965 _N.Y. Times_ 26 June 15 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers)  The youths
>followed the shirt-sleeved candidate down Seventh Avenue, displaying
>oaktag placards that read: "Lindsay -- a traitor to the G.O.P."
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
>Yale Law School                             forthcoming
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 12/17/02
-------------- next part --------------

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.431 / Virus Database: 242 - Release Date: 12/17/02

From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Dec 20 13:56:02 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:56:02 -0000
Subject: End of year request..
In-Reply-To: <1a4.df13db5.2b3475b0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.135602.0000.>

> Would it be possible to configure the list-server so that "ADS"
> will appear at the beginning of the subject line of every post?  I
> know this is possible in the major-domo listserver; I don't know if
> it's an option in the LSOFT listserv software used (I believe) by
> ADS-L.

It's a standard feature on LISTSERV. It is indeed very convenient.
All you have to do is send a message from the e-mail address at which
you are subscribed to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU (note, not to the
list address you use when posting messages) with the message text

    SET ADS-L SUBJ


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Fri Dec 20 14:21:00 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:21:00 -0500
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938)
In-Reply-To: <22AFAF4F.18607BC4.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.092100.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:55 AM 12/20/2002 -0500, Mr. Popik wrote:
>BUMPY STEW
>
>    July 1938, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, pg. 25, cols. 1-2:
>    Silhouetted there against the dusk were the iron words "St. Mary's
> Female Seminary."
>    A SEMINARY SERVES BUMPY STEW
>
>    "Fry chopped onions in butter until they're brown.  Then fry ground
> beef in the mixture until that's brown.  Sprinkle with flour; add milk,
> salt, and pepper.  Keep stirring until it gets bumpy.  Then," she added,
> "it's bumpy stew."


My grandmother (b. 1918) used to make this, mom (b. 1938) picked it up and
now I make it and serve it over noodles or some other starchy thing. But,
we've never had a name for it. My mother swears that her grandfather (b.
1886), a PA Dutch Mennonite, had a PA Dutch name for it. Anybody have any
idea what that was? Or what it's called elsewhere? Nowadays we just call it
"Grandma Bessie's hamburger gunk," but I'm pretty sure we're the only ones ;-)



Katy


Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From GHurley at OVID.COM  Fri Dec 20 14:08:32 2002
From: GHurley at OVID.COM (Gerry Hurley)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:08:32 -0500
Subject: WOTY suggestion
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.090832.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What about "googled" - I'm hearing that everywhere now, but hadn't about
up to about two months ago.

Gerry Hurley


From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM  Fri Dec 20 14:31:20 2002
From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:31:20 -0500
Subject: WOTY considerations
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.093120.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Botox party:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/Botoxparty.asp

chicken hawk:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/chickenhawk.asp

corporate perp walk:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/corporateperpwalk.asp

Enronomics:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/Enronomics.asp

Fifth Amendment capitalist:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/FifthAmendmentcapitalist.asp

homicide bombing:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/homicidebombing.asp

Iraqnophobia:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/Iraqnophobia.asp

office-park dad:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/office-parkdad.asp

regime change:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/regimechange.asp

threat fatigue:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/threatfatigue.asp

war chalking:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/warchalking.asp

Paul
http://www.wordspy.com/


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Dec 20 14:38:57 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 06:38:57 -0800
Subject: WOTY Weapons
In-Reply-To: <6f.329b8b3f.2b344a64@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.063857.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting Bapopik at AOL.COM:

> WOTY WEAPONS
>
>    "Weapons of mass destructions" is a bit old--not that that matters for
> WOTY competition.
>    I did a "weapons insp*" search in the online OED.  I was looking for
> "weapons inspection(s)" and "weapons inspector(s)."  There were no hits.
> These are not new, either, but perhaps deserve a look.

"Weapons inspector" may not exactly be new, but I don't recall it ever being
used within the arms control community. Instead we used "arms control
inspector" for the general term, and then the treaty or organization (e.g., INF
inspector, CWC inspector, UNSCOM inspector, IAEA inspector) when specificity
was required.

"UNMOVIC" is another one to consider for WOTY. Maybe too arcane though.

And there is "dirty bomb" (referring to a radiological weapon, not one that
creates fallout). That's fairly recent in vintage (1993 is what I've traced it
to), although it's already fading from memory after a brief flurry of scary
government announcements.

I would second Michael Quinion's suggestion of "regime change."

And of course there is "homeland security." (Did we consider this last year?)
Interesting and new use of "homeland" in a US political context and it's likely
to be with us for a while, as the a name of a bureaucratic entity if nothing
else.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 20 14:58:51 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:58:51 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0212192004060.29666-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.095851.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred Shapiro said:
>On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote:
>
>>  #He notes that in a previous issue (57.3 for fall 1982, p 189), David
>>  Gold had #suggested that "oaktag" is a New York City (and Newark, New
>>  Jersey) word. But #FWIW, it's not in the Dictionary of American Regional
>>  English.
>>
>>  I knew the word growing up in NYC in the 50s-60s. I'm pretty sure I
>
>I also knew the word growing up on Long Island in the 1960s.  The earliest
>on New York Times Historical is:

Westchester County (just north of NYC)--we used oaktag also, but I
was familiar with poster board. I'm not sure whether I thought these
were two words for the same thing or two different types of material.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Fri Dec 20 15:09:44 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:09:44 -0600
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.090944.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Arthur the Rat" can be found at the DARE site: http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html

-----Original Message-----
From:   Terry Irons [mailto:t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU]
Sent:   Fri 12/20/2002 6:35 AM
To:     ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Cc:	
Subject:             Re: Fwd: standard passage

"Grip the Rat" dates back into at least the early 30s.  The name was later
changed to Arthur.  It was used in the DARE field wor, and the text may be
found in the article on pronunciation by Hartmann is DARE Volume I.




Quoting Barnhart <ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM>:

> From my dialectology notes it's called "Grip the Rat."  It's found in
> several places.  Sumner Ives used the version found in Gleason's
> overview of grammars, the title of which escapes me at this hour.  I
> googled _Grip the rat_ and found nothing.
>
> Regards,
> David Barnhart
> This message scanned by RAV anti-virus.
>



**************************
Terry Lynn Irons


From jyeh at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Fri Dec 20 15:08:17 2002
From: jyeh at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Judy Yeh)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:08:17 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20021220053736.02f3d080@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.100817.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I heard "oaktag" while attending elementary school in Jamaica, Queens,
from 1985-1990. My teachers were all middle-aged or elderly, and I think
they grew up (or at least lived most of their lives) in Queens, in
neighborhoods like Flushing and Fresh Meadows. Come to think of it, I
don't think my classmates used the term--only the teachers did--and I
never heard it again after I finished elementary school. Many (perhaps
most) of the teachers at my high school did not grow up in New York
City.

Judy Yeh


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Fri Dec 20 15:46:44 2002
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Hall)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:46:44 -0600
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <12f.1e2e92cc.2b33b29a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.094644.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David Gold is working on this currently.  Sorry I don't have his address.

At 06:39 PM 12/19/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>In American Speech 59.1 for Spring 1984, Laurence Urdang has a paragraph
>speculating on the etymology of "oaktag" : ". . . "oaktag" is a dark beige,
>which may account for the "oak-" part of its name. In the 1930s and later,
>shipping tags were often made of this material, typically with a hole at one
>end, reinforced with a stiff red circular grommet and a short piece of cord
>for tying to a package. It seems likely to me that the universal application
>of the stock to such use accounts for the "-tag" part of "oaktag." This is,
>of course, a folk eytmology -- but then, "oaktag" appears to be a folk name,
>doesn't it?"
>
>He notes that in a previous issue (57.3 for fall 1982, p 189), David Gold had
>suggested that "oaktag" is a New York City (and Newark, New Jersey) word. But
>FWIW, it's not in the Dictionary of American Regional English.
>
>It is notable, also, that "oaktag" is not in the Oxford English Dictionary or
>American Heritage or Merriam-Webster's Collegiate.
>
>- Allan Metcalf


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Fri Dec 20 15:40:02 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:40:02 -0500
Subject: End of year request..
In-Reply-To: <1a4.df13db5.2b3475b0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.104002.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

> It's not particularly important, but I belong to two other mailing lists
> which have this feature, and it makes it quite convenient to be able to look
> at my in-box and see which messages are from mailing lists.

You should be able to filter your email so that all emails from ADS go
into their own folder; I do -- it makes my life a lot easier. I can check
on ADS stuff separate from regular email.

I have all my different mailing lists filtered into separate folders.
Check the documentation of your email program. If you use PINE, it's super
easy.

-- Steve


From TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM  Fri Dec 20 15:48:36 2002
From: TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM (Joyce, Thomas F.)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:48:36 -0600
Subject: End of year request..
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.094836.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I use a filter to route all ADS messages to a specific directory.  Your mail program should be able to do it.

Tom Joyce

-----Original Message-----
From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM]
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 7:31 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: End of year request..


Would it be possible to configure the list-server so that "ADS" will appear
at the beginning of the subject line of every post?  I know this is possible
in the major-domo listserver; I don't know if it's an option in the LSOFT
listserv software used (I believe) by ADS-L.

It's not particularly important, but I belong to two other mailing lists
which have this feature, and it makes it quite convenient to be able to look
at my in-box and see which messages are from mailing lists.

      - James A. Landau


------------------------------------------
The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged,
confidential, and protected from disclosure.  If you are not the
intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination,
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error, please delete it and notify the sender.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 15:51:13 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:51:13 EST
Subject: Triction (Truth or Fiction?)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.105113.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I forgot to add this.  From the NEW YORK OBSERVER, December 23-30, 2002,
pg. 1, col. 2:

_Paging Mary McCarthy!_
_Barris and Hitler:_
_Strange Triction_
-------------------------------------
_The Gong Show of Fact:_
_Cusack Tells Adolf,_
_"You're Hard to Like"_
By RON ROSENBAUM
   Where is Mary McCarthy now that we need her?  Now that we seem to be
entering into a moment in culture in which truth and fiction are routinely
blurred to the point that an entirely new hybrid genre seems to have been
created: one that might be called "triction."  (...)

(Off to Zanzibar!  Be back January 11th, if New York and I both survive that
long--ed.)


From davemarc at PANIX.COM  Fri Dec 20 15:53:58 2002
From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:53:58 -0500
Subject: WOTY considerations
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.105358.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I still think "blog" warrants serious consideration.

d.


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Dec 20 16:47:06 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:47:06 -0800
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021220090521.00b04ed0@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.084706.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I know this dish as "Hamburger gravy" usually served over rice or other
starch.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:
>
> My grandmother (b. 1918) used to make this, mom (b. 1938) picked it up and
> now I make it and serve it over noodles or some other starchy thing. But,
> we've never had a name for it. My mother swears that her grandfather (b.
> 1886), a PA Dutch Mennonite, had a PA Dutch name for it. Anybody have any
> idea what that was? Or what it's called elsewhere? Nowadays we just call it
> "Grandma Bessie's hamburger gunk," but I'm pretty sure we're the only ones ;-)
>
>
>
> Katy
>
>
> Kathleen E. Miller
> Research Assistant to William Safire
> The New York Times
>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Dec 20 16:48:10 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:48:10 -0500
Subject: WOTY considerations
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.114810.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I like "blog" and its derivation blogger.  Blogs are a genuine social phenomenon, and they have the advantage of not being a transient political development.  (The terms, of course, may turn out to be transient anyway, but I'm pretty sure that the phenomenon is around to stay.)

        The terms seem to be pretty new.  The domain name blogger.com was registered on June 22, 1999, according to Register.com's WHOIS database, and I haven't seen any earlier uses of either word than that.  A diligent Google Groups search might find something, but there are a lot of unrelated uses of "blog" that make it difficult to search.  As for the underlying term "weblog," the Robot Wisdom Weblog FAQ claims that it was the first to use the term "weblog," in December 1997.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: davemarc [mailto:davemarc at PANIX.COM]
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 10:54 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: WOTY considerations


I still think "blog" warrants serious consideration.

d.


From self at TOWSE.COM  Fri Dec 20 19:06:22 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:06:22 -0800
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.110622.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Kathleen E. Miller" wrote:
>
> At 02:55 AM 12/20/2002 -0500, Mr. Popik wrote:
> >BUMPY STEW
> >
> >    July 1938, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, pg. 25, cols. 1-2:
> >    Silhouetted there against the dusk were the iron words "St. Mary's
> > Female Seminary."
> >    A SEMINARY SERVES BUMPY STEW
> >
> >    "Fry chopped onions in butter until they're brown.  Then fry ground
> > beef in the mixture until that's brown.  Sprinkle with flour; add milk,
> > salt, and pepper.  Keep stirring until it gets bumpy.  Then," she added,
> > "it's bumpy stew."
>
> My grandmother (b. 1918) used to make this, mom (b. 1938) picked it up and
> now I make it and serve it over noodles or some other starchy thing. But,
> we've never had a name for it. My mother swears that her grandfather (b.
> 1886), a PA Dutch Mennonite, had a PA Dutch name for it. Anybody have any
> idea what that was? Or what it's called elsewhere? Nowadays we just call it
> "Grandma Bessie's hamburger gunk," but I'm pretty sure we're the only ones ;-)

Known here simply as "Hamburger Gravy." I like the "Bumpy Stew"
name a lot better. The recipe is something the other half brought
to the household a quarter century ago. I'd never encountered it
before. Usually served over mashed potatoes, although noodles or
rice also work. We add a bit of cinnamon or mace for that je ne
sais quoi.

Sal
--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From self at TOWSE.COM  Fri Dec 20 19:09:12 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:09:12 -0800
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.110912.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Judy Yeh wrote:
>
> I heard "oaktag" while attending elementary school in Jamaica, Queens,
> from 1985-1990. My teachers were all middle-aged or elderly, and I think
> they grew up (or at least lived most of their lives) in Queens, in
> neighborhoods like Flushing and Fresh Meadows. Come to think of it, I
> don't think my classmates used the term--only the teachers did--and I
> never heard it again after I finished elementary school. Many (perhaps
> most) of the teachers at my high school did not grow up in New York
> City.

Raised in California, Bay Area. Never heard the word until it
came up in this question. So is it poster board or isn't it?

Sounds like a trademark-gone-generic sort of derivation.

Sal
--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM  Fri Dec 20 20:57:28 2002
From: TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM (Joyce, Thomas F.)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:57:28 -0600
Subject: WOTY considerations
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.145728.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about "the events of September 11 . . ."?  I don't recall its having achieved formulaic status by this time last year.

------------------------------------------
The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged,
confidential, and protected from disclosure.  If you are not the
intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly
prohibited.  If you think that you have received this e-mail message in
error, please delete it and notify the sender.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Dec 20 21:07:10 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:07:10 -0800
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <3E036AD8.841A12A6@towse.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.130710.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Raised in California, Bay Area. Never heard the word until it
> came up in this question. So is it poster board or isn't it?
>
> Sounds like a trademark-gone-generic sort of derivation.


I was raised in New Jersey and the term is familiar from my school days.
Haven't heard it in years though. It is a thin poster board, beige in color.
Similar to the material used to make manila folders.

I am guessing that the "-tag" is from "tagboard," which the OED2 has from 1912
and refers to its use to make luggage tags. The "oak," and this is a shakier
guess, is from the color.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From positive_pcr at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 20 21:30:25 2002
From: positive_pcr at HOTMAIL.COM (positive pcr)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:30:25 -0500
Subject: My vote for Word of the Year: Blogging
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.163025.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not certain when blogs/blogging/weblogs first appeared in the language
but I feel as if they reached a certain critical mass in the year 2002.

--Graham

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 3 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU=
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 20 21:40:46 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:40:46 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <005201c2a7be$c1bc8ea0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.164046.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:28 PM -0600 12/19/02, Millie Webb wrote:
>FWIW on my end: I grew up in Minnesota, and have lived "Up North" (MN, MI,
>WI) my whole life.  I had never heard it called "oaktag" until this question
>came up.  Now, I have not been an elementary school art teacher either...
>But to me, it has always been "tagboard" or "poster board".  This might lend
>some more credence to the "NY-Thang" theory.  Where are you checking in
>from, Gerry?  -- Millie

Not everyone from NY knows from "oaktag".  Neither my wife nor I (b.
1944/45) is familiar with the term--we've always called it "poster
board".

Larry


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Dec 20 22:21:24 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:21:24 -0800
Subject: My vote for Word of the Year: Blogging
In-Reply-To: <F130X7Z0ALxjDClZ5my0001942a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.142124.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting positive pcr <positive_pcr at HOTMAIL.COM>:

> I'm not certain when blogs/blogging/weblogs first appeared in the language
> but I feel as if they reached a certain critical mass in the year 2002.

I would have said 2001 was the year of the blog. But being in Silicon Valley
perhaps I'm a bit more attuned to the latest tech trends.


--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Fri Dec 20 22:25:22 2002
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:25:22 -0500
Subject: WOTY considerations
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.172522.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

the new verb, to Winona

beth lee simon
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Fri Dec 20 22:43:52 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:43:52 -0600
Subject: End of year request..
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.164352.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, please try as Thomas suggests.  All you do is set an e-mail message
"rule" to put everything with ADS in the from line to a folder created just
for them within your in-box.  I could never keep any of this straight if I
had not done that from the beginning.  I am impressed you could do so thus
far, Jim.  -- Millie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joyce, Thomas F." <TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: End of year request..


> I use a filter to route all ADS messages to a specific directory.  Your
mail program should be able to do it.
>
> Tom Joyce
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM]
> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 7:31 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: End of year request..


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec 20 22:48:15 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:48:15 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag (1922?)
In-Reply-To: <73BC7937.6A18E38C.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.174815.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote [I have abridged]:

#>From OCLC WORLDCAT:
# Reconnaissance map of state road no. 5, September 1922,
#Washington (State).

#Note(s): Hand-drawn map, accompanied by 48 3 x 6 in. photos along the
#route, mounted on a sheet of oaktag.

#Responsibility: Chas. I. Signer.
#Document Type: Book
#Entry: 19921214
        ^^^^
 This looks like the date of the annotation -- Dec. 14, 1992, in a
format I use myself because it sorts correctly -- subject to the update
in the following line. So I don't think we have an early citation here.

#Update: 19990712

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec 20 22:53:53 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:53:53 -0500
Subject: End of year request..
In-Reply-To: <004b01c2a879$455bd2b0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.175353.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:

#Yes, please try as Thomas suggests.  All you do is set an e-mail message
#"rule" to put everything with ADS in the from line to a folder created just
#for them within your in-box.  I could never keep any of this straight if I
#had not done that from the beginning.  I am impressed you could do so thus
#far, Jim.  -- Millie

"All you do" is harder in some programs than others... :-( I think I
have to figure out PROCMAIL in order to do this.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From self at TOWSE.COM  Fri Dec 20 23:21:12 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:21:12 -0800
Subject: End of year request..
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.152112.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark A Mandel wrote:
>
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:
>
> #Yes, please try as Thomas suggests.  All you do is set an e-mail message
> #"rule" to put everything with ADS in the from line to a folder created just
> #for them within your in-box.  I could never keep any of this straight if I
> #had not done that from the beginning.  I am impressed you could do so thus
> #far, Jim.  -- Millie
>
> "All you do" is harder in some programs than others... :-( I think I
> have to figure out PROCMAIL in order to do this.

I have the [ADS-L] label in the subject line.

Send a note to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU *from* the e-mail
address your subscription is under. In the body of the note have

SET ADS-L SUBJ

The basic commands &c. are explained here:
<http://www.americandialect.org/adsl.html>

To get all the LISTSERV commands and see what other trouble you
can get up to, send a note to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU with the
message

INFO REFCARD

Best,
Sal

--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 20 23:34:18 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:34:18 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag (1922?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212201745480.87564329-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.183418.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote:

>  This looks like the date of the annotation -- Dec. 14, 1992, in a
> format I use myself because it sorts correctly -- subject to the update
> in the following line. So I don't think we have an early citation here.

Yes, as a librarian I can say that this looks like a 1992 citation, not a
1922 citation.  Search results from WorldCat or Eureka need to be
scrutinized carefully for the real date of the document cataloged.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 21 00:33:41 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:33:41 EST
Subject: WOTY considerations
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.193341.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks everyone for the nominations! I have been lurking and listing
everything, and will bring the lists to our nominating session Friday morning
January 3. More fuel for the fire, here's the short list from Wayne Glowka,
conductor of "Among the New Words" in _American Speech_. - Allan Metcalf

Wayne's Words


apatheist   Person believing that God or gods exist but are not of any use


comprendo-challenged   Unable to understand the US Constitution


dialarhoea   Tendency of a cell phone to make a call when left in a pocket

or bag with keypad unlocked


grid butt   Marks left on buttocks by fishnet pantyhose


gun-rack dad   Conservative swing voter in Central and Western Pennsylvania


Saddameter   Meter used by a television news show to indicate how close war

with Iraq seems on a given day


201(k)   Retirement account ruined by stock losses (used in 2001 but

prominent in 2002)


unorthodox entrepreneur   Panhandler, drug addict, or prostitute displaced

by movie makers in Vancouver, BC, parks



undryuppable   Resistant to desiccation (of a marker)


urban de-newal   Replacement of government projects and buildings with a

neighborhood


wombanization   Feminization


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sat Dec 21 01:14:13 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:14:13 -0500
Subject: End of year request..
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212201753130.87564329-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.201413.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Dec 20, 2002 at 05:53:53PM -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:
>
> #Yes, please try as Thomas suggests.  All you do is set an e-mail message
> #"rule" to put everything with ADS in the from line to a folder created just
> #for them within your in-box.  I could never keep any of this straight if I
> #had not done that from the beginning.  I am impressed you could do so thus
> #far, Jim.  -- Millie
>
> "All you do" is harder in some programs than others... :-( I think I
> have to figure out PROCMAIL in order to do this.

I'm no fan of procmail--in fact, I'm something of an enemy--but a
procmail recipe to send all ADS-L mail into a separate folder is
as simple as adding this to your existing .procmailrc:

----- begin recipe -----
:0:
* ^TOADS-L
$HOME/adslmessages
----- end recipe -----

with "adslmessages" being the name of your desired mailfolder.
I keep my regular ADS-L mail in my main mailbox, but I route
list error messages and other administrative mail into a
separate folder.

Jesse Sheidlower


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Sat Dec 21 01:13:41 2002
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:13:41 -0800
Subject: WOTY considerations
In-Reply-To: <153.193c048d.2b3510e5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.171341.0800.>

>dialarhoea   Tendency of a cell phone to make a call when left in a pocket
or bag with keypad unlocked

oh, what an image!

in Canada, this has been referred to as a 'pocket call'

cheers -

Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of AAllan at AOL.COM
Sent: December 20, 2002 4:34 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: WOTY considerations


Thanks everyone for the nominations! I have been lurking and listing
everything, and will bring the lists to our nominating session Friday
morning
January 3. More fuel for the fire, here's the short list from Wayne Glowka,
conductor of "Among the New Words" in _American Speech_. - Allan Metcalf

Wayne's Words


apatheist   Person believing that God or gods exist but are not of any use


comprendo-challenged   Unable to understand the US Constitution


dialarhoea   Tendency of a cell phone to make a call when left in a pocket

or bag with keypad unlocked


grid butt   Marks left on buttocks by fishnet pantyhose


gun-rack dad   Conservative swing voter in Central and Western Pennsylvania


Saddameter   Meter used by a television news show to indicate how close war

with Iraq seems on a given day


201(k)   Retirement account ruined by stock losses (used in 2001 but

prominent in 2002)


unorthodox entrepreneur   Panhandler, drug addict, or prostitute displaced

by movie makers in Vancouver, BC, parks



undryuppable   Resistant to desiccation (of a marker)


urban de-newal   Replacement of government projects and buildings with a

neighborhood


wombanization   Feminization


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Dec 21 01:19:15 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:19:15 -0500
Subject: End of year request..
In-Reply-To: <3E03A5E8.293E32@towse.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.201915.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        [Millie W]
#> #Yes, please try as Thomas suggests.  All you do is set an e-mail message
#> #"rule" to put everything with ADS in the from line to a folder created just
#> #for them within your in-box.

        [Mark M]
#> "All you do" is harder in some programs than others... :-( I think I
#> have to figure out PROCMAIL in order to do this.

        [Towse]
#I have the [ADS-L] label in the subject line.
#
#Send a note to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU *from* the e-mail
#address your subscription is under. In the body of the note have
        [...]

I've just done that. That will tell *the listserver* to put "[ADS-L]" in
the subject line of messages that are sent to me. They will arrive at my
inbox, where they will continue to be listed along with everything else
until I work out how to tell *my mail program* to do something special
with them on the basis of that string, namely, file them in my "ads"
folder. My mail program, pine, is ancient but it works nicely with a
text-only interface, which makes it good for a slow dialup connection
such as I have here as well as (knock on wood) immune to viruses. As far
as I can tell, my only recourse for separate filing is to figure out the
intricacies of procmail, which, like most Unix programs, is
user-friendly only for certain very special values of "user" and
"friendly".

However, having this string in the subject line will help *me*
prioritize my mail reading as I scan the "table of contents" of the
inbox.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Dec 21 01:27:29 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:27:29 -0500
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994341C7@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.202729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote:

#"Arthur the Rat" can be found at the DARE site:
#http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html

I just got this message, displayed here verbatim by copy-&-paste:
        >>>>>

   The information in this page is displayed in frames. Either You have
   the frame feature of your browser turned off. Or Your using a very old
   browser..Please Update for viewing

        <<<<<
What do people think of
 1: its user-friendliness?
 2: its grammaticality?
 3: its suitability to the DARE website?

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Dec 21 01:33:45 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:33:45 -0500
Subject: The ANC (was: Using the BNC)
In-Reply-To: <3E02E1C8.11927.2B6475@localhost>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.203345.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Michael Quinion wrote:

#Interesting point. Though the Web could well be described in the
#OED's definition as "in an initial or early stage; hence elementary,
#imperfect, undeveloped, immature", I used the word in the sense of a
#disorganised mass of material. This sense has appeared in a number
#of recent dictionaries, always as subsidiary senses:
        [...]

#The Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage says:
#
        [...]
#                       But the
#extended use is natural and probably inevitable: what is just begun
#is also unfinished, incomplete, and often also disorganized or
#incoherent. There is no need to bring forward a putative confusion
#with chaotic to explain the development. And unfortunately for the
#complainers, the extension of meaning was already three decades old
#or more when Brown noticed it."
#
#In confirmation of this last point, the editors cite material from
#works that date back as far as 1916, written by the likes of T E
#Lawrence, Thomas Wolfe, John Updike, and Norman Mailer.

Mmmm!! Thank you for the survey and history. I guess I'll have to
suppress my curmudgeonly impulses on this one from now on.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From funex79 at SLONET.ORG  Sat Dec 21 01:45:49 2002
From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:45:49 -0800
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.174549.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I attended elementary school in Brooklyn in the 30's (P.S.105, P.S.103, and
J.H.S.220 to be specific) and oak tag was the common name for a rather
rough, yellow-tan heavy paper or light cardboard used for vaious art
projects and similar uses.

J Foster






----- Original Message -----
From: "Judy Yeh" <jyeh at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: Derivation of the word oaktag


> I heard "oaktag" while attending elementary school in Jamaica, Queens,
> from 1985-1990. My teachers were all middle-aged or elderly, and I think
> they grew up (or at least lived most of their lives) in Queens, in
> neighborhoods like Flushing and Fresh Meadows. Come to think of it, I
> don't think my classmates used the term--only the teachers did--and I
> never heard it again after I finished elementary school. Many (perhaps
> most) of the teachers at my high school did not grow up in New York
> City.
>
> Judy Yeh


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Dec 21 01:48:45 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:48:45 -0500
Subject: WOTY
In-Reply-To: <12b.1e0b83ef.2b347671@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.204845.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

#An obvious candidate for 2002 Word-of-the-year is "Enron" used as a metaphor.

Including verbally. The company I worked for was bought by a competitor
and enronned.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Dec 21 01:52:21 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:52:21 -0500
Subject: WOTY considerations
In-Reply-To: <021401c2a834$77293430$ef9afea9@paul>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.205221.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Paul McFedries wrote:

#Fifth Amendment capitalist:
#http://www.wordspy.com/words/FifthAmendmentcapitalist.asp

That's a new one to me. I hereby coin "First Amendment capitalist",
referring to those who invoke the right of freedom of speech to protect
their advertising, no matter how repulsive or destructive it may be.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Dec 21 02:26:30 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:26:30 -0800
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <008301c2a892$b0775f60$0400a8c0@charterpipeline.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.182630.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting Jerome Foster <funex79 at SLONET.ORG>:

> I attended elementary school in Brooklyn in the 30's (P.S.105, P.S.103, and
> J.H.S.220 to be specific) and oak tag was the common name for a rather
> rough, yellow-tan heavy paper or light cardboard used for vaious art
> projects and similar uses.

I just had dinner with a friend I've known since kindergarten, another product
of New Jersey public schools. I mentioned this thread and he said he had always
thought it was "oat tag." Still, I remember it as "oak tag," so his could just
be an individual error.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From N270053 at VM.SC.EDU  Sat Dec 21 02:23:53 2002
From: N270053 at VM.SC.EDU (Michael Montgomery)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:23:53 EST
Subject: standard passage
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.212353.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Cassidy and DARE used a short narrative titled Arthur
the Rat that was a modification of Daniel Jones' Grip
the Rat passage.  Joseph Sargent Hall, a graduate student
in the late 1930s at Columbia, became acquainted with the
original Jones version from his mentor, W. Cabell Greet,
and when embarking on fieldwork in the Smoky Mountains of
Tennessee/North Carolina in 1939, he named the lead
character Arthur because he thought it would be more
familiar to American respondents.  I learned this from
Hall in an interview with him shortly before his death
in 1992.  Interestingly enough, when I recounted Hall's
account to Cassidy in 1997, he said he always wondered
where the name Arthur came from.

Michael Montgomery

--- RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
> I think this must refer to the rat story that Fred
> Cassidy used at DARE? My
> memory is pretty hazy about this, however.
>
>
> In a message dated 12/19/02 8:12:17 AM,
> gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes:
>
>
> > Can someone help this man?
> >
> > D�but du message r�exp�di� :
> >
> > > De: David Skinner
> <david.skinner at tsd.state.tx.us>
> > > Date: Wed 18 Dec 2002  21:00:10 America/New_York
> > > �: <gbarrett at americandialect.org>
> > > Objet: standard passage
> > > R�pondre �: David Skinner
> <david.skinner at tsd.state.tx.us>
> > >
> > > Did the ADS ever use something called the
> standard passage. A ling
> > > professor once referred to it and played some
> examples of various
> > > people reading it.
> > >
> > > If this rings a bell, i'd like to find a copy of
> it. Any help would be
> > > greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 21 07:31:35 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 02:31:35 -0500
Subject: Fourth-Quarter Surprise
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.023135.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Amsterdam.  I fly to Nairobi in two hours.

   From the WALL STREET JOURNAL EUROPE, December 20-22, 2002, pg. A11, col. 1:

_Small Merchants Are Upset at Yahoo Higher Fees_
By MYLENE MANGALINDAN
   Merchants call it the "fourth-quarter surprise."
   Last year, just before the holiday-shopping frenzy kicked in, _Yahoo_ Inc. told the small merchants who operate stores on its shopping site it was raising the rent, so to speak.  (...)


(Check the usual databases.  "Fourth-quarter surprise" is a little later than the "October Surprise" and "November Surprise."  Perhaps there's a "first-quarter surprise" also.  The second and third quarters have no surprises?--ed.)


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Dec 21 09:30:13 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 02:30:13 -0700
Subject: WOTY Nomination: Smokemouth
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.023013.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Allan,

        Glad to hear that you are picking up WOTY nominations from the
list, as I never got around to sending mine to Wayne. I suggested this one
some months ago, but don't know whether you collected it in your list of
nominations. The word gained some prominence in the West when wildfires
were raging this summer, but like early-year movies that don't make it to
the Oscar nominations, terms like this are forgotten as quickly as the
fires fade from the front page/TV news. It refers to a condition suffered
by firefighters battling the blazes. I haven't checked it out on Google or
elsewhere.

        Rudy


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Dec 21 09:43:16 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 02:43:16 -0700
Subject: Inchoate
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.024316.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"And the earth was without form, and void..." My guess is that the
extension of meaning of "inchoate" was by contamination from "incoherent",
not "chaos", as a sort of subtle malapropism, not easily detected. The
word is fairly rare and learned (a BNC search for frequencies, anyone?),
and subject to "infection" by users who are vaguely familiar with it (and
don't know what an "inchoative" is in grammar). Phonological similarity
helps the process, which is why I suggest that "incoherent" was the source
of the shift in meaning. (Of course, both influences could have been at
work, "chaos" giving a visual boost to its rarer cousin for spellers who
can't remember whether "i" precedes or follows "e".) Certainly, as has
been suggested, the close semantic association of something being in a
beginning state and being unorganized is a natural impetus, moreso than
"chaos", which to me always implies a violent state of disorder ("chaos
theory" to the contrary notwithstanding).

        Rudy


From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Sat Dec 21 13:09:42 2002
From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 08:09:42 -0500
Subject: Subject Tag Test
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.080942.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gang,

I added a subject tag header.  This message is a test to determine whether I
have a clue.


**************************
Terry Lynn Irons


From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Sat Dec 21 13:18:58 2002
From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 08:18:58 -0500
Subject: new try
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.081858.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This a second test of the subject header tag option.  In my own mail, I had not
added the subj option.

If this works and you want the option, send the following message to
listserv at listserv.uga.edu

set ads-l subj

If it doesn't work, I am going back to the kitchen and make more biscotti.


**************************
Terry Lynn Irons


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Dec 21 13:17:07 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 08:17:07 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <1040437590.3e03d15635a96@webmail.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.081707.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Webster's Third shows "oaktag", = "tagboard", = "strong cardboard used
especially for making tags". No etymology given.

-- Doug Wilson


From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Sat Dec 21 14:00:47 2002
From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Lynn Irons)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 09:00:47 -0500
Subject: Another test
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.090047.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am hopeful I have not messed up everything

--
Virtually, Terry
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)


This message scanned by RAV anti-virus.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 21 14:41:30 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 09:41:30 -0500
Subject: new try
In-Reply-To: <1040476738.3e046a428b2a1@ldap.morehead-st.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.094130.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>This a second test of the subject header tag option.  In my own
>mail, I had not
>added the subj option.
>
>If this works and you want the option, send the following message to
>listserv at listserv.uga.edu
>
>set ads-l subj
>
>If it doesn't work, I am going back to the kitchen and make more biscotti.
>
I'll take the biscotti, thanks.

Larry


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Sat Dec 21 15:11:22 2002
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:11:22 -0500
Subject: biscotti
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.101122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

terry & other baking lexicographers

biscotti = mandelbrot?

beth

beth lee simon, ph.d.
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 21 15:34:31 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:34:31 -0500
Subject: biscotti
In-Reply-To: <se043e7c.067@gw.ipfw.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.103431.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:11 AM -0500 12/21/02, Beth Simon wrote:
>terry & other baking lexicographers
>
>biscotti = mandelbrot?
>
>beth
>
Not necessarily.  Mandelbrot is [+ almond] by definition; biscotti
are unmarked for the presence or absence of that feature.  One
classic version contains pine nuts and may be flavored with either
almond or vanilla extract.

Larry


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Sat Dec 21 16:18:57 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 11:18:57 -0500
Subject: Pronunciation of "googol"
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.111857.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The name Google may be derived from a mathematical term, but it seems likely that it and its pronunciation was influenced by the fact that several of its predecessors among web browsers were named after cartoon characters.  I recall Archie, which was followed (? if I remember) by Veronica.

I am supposing the the name Google was chosen in part as an allusion to Barney Google.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
Date: Thursday, December 12, 2002 2:33 pm
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "googol"

> At 9:20 AM -0800 12/12/02, vida morkunas wrote:
> >I say Goo-g'l
> >
> >Vida.
> >(in the Pacific NW)
>
> Me too, but I have an alternation with the full vowel for
> "googolplex", where the [u] in the first syllable and the [a] in the
> second both get secondary stress:
>
> [,gu,gal'plEks]
>
> (...which is, everyone will remember, 1 followed by a googol of
> zeros.  A very large number indeed.  This too is defined in Gamow's
> _One, Two, Three, Infinity_, or a title approximating that.
>
> larry
>
> P.S.  Actually, I think I've also known myself to use the ['gu,gal]
> pronunciation for "google", with the full vowel.
>


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 21 17:38:08 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 12:38:08 EST
Subject: Buck and a quarter/buck and a half
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.123808.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone noticed a usage of "buck and a quarter" to mean one hundred twenty
five dollars and "buck and a half" to mean one hundred fifty dollars?

I don't recall ever having heard it before, until in the last week I heard it
twice.

Presumably it is used only in contexts in which the order of magnitude is
clear, but the first time was referring to the fee for a round of golf (not
being a golfer, I was unaware that $1.25 was ridiculously low) and the other
time was at a yard sale where the seller (former owner of a major grocery
chain franchise) gave it as a price for a piece of furniture.  Luckily I was
warned and asked him which price he meant.  Unfortunately it was the higher
one, but my wife bargained him down to $110.

           - Jim Landau (perennially context-challenged)


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sat Dec 21 17:56:32 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 12:56:32 -0500
Subject: Buck and a quarter/buck and a half
In-Reply-To: <1a8.e1a225f.2b360100@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.125632.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Dec 21, 2002 at 12:38:08PM -0500, James A. Landau wrote:
> Has anyone noticed a usage of "buck and a quarter" to mean one hundred twenty
> five dollars and "buck and a half" to mean one hundred fifty dollars?

HDAS has an entry for this, with _buck_ meaning 'one hundred dollars',
'one hundred (of anything, as pounds of weight)', and 'one thousand/
one hundred thousand dollars'. The earliest example of _buck and a half_
for $150 is 1974, though I seem to recall someone finding an antedating
for one or another of these senses.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From self at TOWSE.COM  Sat Dec 21 18:39:15 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:39:15 -0800
Subject: WOTY
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.103915.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark A Mandel wrote:
>
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> #An obvious candidate for 2002 Word-of-the-year is "Enron" used as a metaphor.
>
> Including verbally. The company I worked for was bought by a competitor
> and enronned.
>

The Fella and I were discussing WOTY last night over dinner: he
suggests "material breach" - an amorphous term as yet to be
defined.

Sal
--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>

--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Sat Dec 21 18:50:52 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 18:50:52 -0000
Subject: Buck and a quarter/buck and a half
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.185052.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

1971 G.V. Higgins _Friends of Eddie Coyle_ (1973) 10: He'd go a buck and a
half apiece for as many [sc. guns] as I could get

Jonathon Green


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 21 19:16:10 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:16:10 -0500
Subject: Venus, King Kong, Porter, Berlin
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.141610.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

John Baker calls our attention to the following parody verses of Cole
Porter's "You're the Top":

http://dogslife.blogspot.com/2002_07_01_dogslife_archive.html
[posted by Gregory Hlatky, July 27, 2002]
You're the top.
You're Miss Pinkham's tonic.
You're the top.
You're a high colonic.
You're the burning heat of a bridal suite in use.
You're the breast [sic; typo for "breasts"] of Venus,
You're King Kong's penis,
You're self-abuse!
You're an arch from the Rome collection.
You're the starch in a groom's erection.
I'm a eunuch that has undergone an "op."
But if, baby, I'm the bottom, you're the top!


The only problem is that this doesn't really *sound* like Irving
Berlin, who was extremely straight and generally pretty humorless
(but see below).  It sounds much more like Cole Porter himself--and I
say that not only because of the latter's Yale connections.  A
colleague off-list calls my attention to a passage in the dual
biography _Genius and Lust : The Creativity and Sexuality of Noel
Coward and Cole Porter_, by Joseph Morella and George Mazzei (New
York: Carroll & Graf, 1995) [not to be confused with _Genius and Lust
: A Journey through the Major Writings of Henry Miller_,   compiled
by Norman Mailer (New York: Grove Press, 1976)], in which virtually
identical verses are attributed to Cole Porter himself, not to Berlin:

"Throughout his career Porter would write saltier lyrics to his songs,
which he'd sing at parties. Most of the lyrics were never written down --
few even survive. One of the classics, however, was the party version of
"You're the Top" [verses as above]. (Morella and Mazzei 1995: 151)

A surf through the web finds the same verses cited at
http://www.grazian-archive.com/autobiography/babe/BABE_20.htm
and attributed to "Bro Bus", another refers to it mysteriously as
'Cole Porter's own (but
spurious) parody of his "You're the Top".'  Apparently David Hyde
Pierce sang the above version at a Mark Taper Forum tribute to Cole
Porter last January, again suggesting (but not proving) Porter's
authorship.  Other appearances on the web are unattributed, BUT there
is one that supports the dogslife.blogspot assertion, from a TIME.com
biosketch of Irving Berlin written a year ago by Richard Corliss:

http://www.time.com/time/sampler/article/0,8599,190220,00.html
Often he showed his collegiality the best way he knew, by writing in
the style of other composers'
work. As a bon-voyage gift to Cole Porter before a 1935 sailing,
Berlin roguishly parodied Porter's
recent hit "You're the Top: "You're the burning heat/ Of a bridal
suite/ In use,/ You're the breasts of
Venus/ You're King Kong's penis/ You're self-abuse!"

So the authorship of these lines remains very much in dispute.

Larry

P.S.  See http://www.gironet.nl/home/reinkoni/TheTop.html for a few
additional verses.


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Sat Dec 21 21:31:20 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:31:20 -0800
Subject: Buck and a quarter/buck and a half
In-Reply-To: <1a8.e1a225f.2b360100@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.133120.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Almost. Things like "One and a half" used to be common in used-car lots;
in this case it would be $150, also known as "a hunnert'n'a half." For all
I know, flivver purveyors are still doing this, although I'll wager at
least a buck and a quarter that there aren't many jalopies--'scuse me,
pre-owned vehicles--out there in the used lots for prices like that.

Peter

On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

> Has anyone noticed a usage of "buck and a quarter" to mean one hundred twenty
> five dollars and "buck and a half" to mean one hundred fifty dollars?
>
> I don't recall ever having heard it before, until in the last week I heard it
> twice.
>
> Presumably it is used only in contexts in which the order of magnitude is
> clear, but the first time was referring to the fee for a round of golf (not
> being a golfer, I was unaware that $1.25 was ridiculously low) and the other
> time was at a yard sale where the seller (former owner of a major grocery
> chain franchise) gave it as a price for a piece of furniture.  Luckily I was
> warned and asked him which price he meant.  Unfortunately it was the higher
> one, but my wife bargained him down to $110.
>
>            - Jim Landau (perennially context-challenged)
>


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Sat Dec 21 21:32:49 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:32:49 -0800
Subject: WOTY
In-Reply-To: <3E04B553.F87018FC@towse.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.133249.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> The Fella and I were discussing WOTY last night over dinner: he
> suggests "material breach" - an amorphous term as yet to be
> defined.
>
> Sal

A great idea. Maybe it could be covered by a material breach cloth, made
out of breech cloth material.

Must be the end of the term. Sorry.

Peter


From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU  Sat Dec 21 22:07:31 2002
From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 00:07:31 +0200
Subject: Pronunciation of "googol"
In-Reply-To: <180e1170aa.170aa180e1@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.22.DEC.2002.000731.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Actually, Archie and Veronica (as well as Jughead) pre-dated the web.
They were file browsers that existed before the first web browsers
were created.

Archie was a search program for files on public FTP servers, while
Veronica was a search program for content on Gopher servers.

Gopher was a menu-based system that was the easiest way to present
content on the Internet before the web was created - and more
accurately before NCSA released Mosaic which is really the event that
launched the web. I don't doubt that there are some gopher servers
still running out there, but I don't know anyone that stuff with
gopher for very long after the web began to grow...

Archie was created in 1990 and the name was just short for Archives.

Veronica, created in 1993, was originally just named to match Archie,
since they served similar purposes, but was later tagged Very Easy
Rodent-Oriented Networkwide Index to Computerized Archives, or
something along those lines.

Jughead was another search engine that searched gopherspace, with
similar naming origins.

All of this info can be found by doing a simple search on Google...

Getting back to the origin of the name Google - it seems it's not
connected at all. It is, in fact, a play on the word Googol, which
being an impossibly large number seemed to the founders of Google to
represent the seeming endless size of the web very well.

Google documents their history very well here:

http://www.google.com/corporate/history.html

Philip Trauring

At 11:18 AM -0500 12/21/02, George Thompson wrote:
>The name Google may be derived from a mathematical term, but it
>seems likely that it and its pronunciation was influenced by the
>fact that several of its predecessors among web browsers were named
>after cartoon characters.  I recall Archie, which was followed (? if
>I remember) by Veronica.
>
>I am supposing the the name Google was chosen in part as an allusion
>to Barney Google.
>
>GAT
>
>George A. Thompson
>Author of A Documentary History of "The African
>Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>Date: Thursday, December 12, 2002 2:33 pm
>Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "googol"
>
>>  At 9:20 AM -0800 12/12/02, vida morkunas wrote:
>>  >I say Goo-g'l
>>  >
>>  >Vida.
>>  >(in the Pacific NW)
>>
>>  Me too, but I have an alternation with the full vowel for
>>  "googolplex", where the [u] in the first syllable and the [a] in the
>>  second both get secondary stress:
>>
>>  [,gu,gal'plEks]
>>
>>  (...which is, everyone will remember, 1 followed by a googol of
>>  zeros.  A very large number indeed.  This too is defined in Gamow's
>>  _One, Two, Three, Infinity_, or a title approximating that.
>>
>>  larry
>>
>>  P.S.  Actually, I think I've also known myself to use the ['gu,gal]
>  > pronunciation for "google", with the full vowel.
>  >


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Dec 21 22:12:13 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:12:13 -0800
Subject: WOTY
In-Reply-To: <3E04B553.F87018FC@towse.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.141213.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting Towse <self at TOWSE.COM>:

> Mark A Mandel wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
> >
> > #An obvious candidate for 2002 Word-of-the-year is "Enron" used as a
> metaphor.
> >
> > Including verbally. The company I worked for was bought by a competitor
> > and enronned.
> >
>
> The Fella and I were discussing WOTY last night over dinner: he
> suggests "material breach" - an amorphous term as yet to be
> defined.

It's certainly topical, but it's neither new nor undefined. It's a standard
legal term referring to failure to uphold one of the primary obligations of a
contract or agreement. It may be a bit amorphous in that what constitutes a
material v. non-material breach may be in the eye of beholder.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 21 22:22:32 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 17:22:32 -0500
Subject: another WOTY candidate: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22walking_pi=F1ata=22?=
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.172232.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've been enjoying the references to the now ex-Majority Leader Lott
as "a walking piñata" in the days before his resignation.  (That's an
n with a tilde in case the character gets mangled in transmission.)
The phrase is attributed to an unidentified Republican.  There's one
relevant Nexis cite from before the Lott affair, back in June 18,
1995, reproduced below, as well as one in which the reference is to
someone's colorful if not gaudy appearance, but otherwise this seems
to represent a new and I think valuable coinage by the anonymous
Republican donor.

Larry
+++++++++++++++++

The New York Times
  June 18, 1995, Sunday, Late Edition - Final

  SECTION: Section 6;  Page 18;  Column 1;  Magazine Desk

  HEADLINE: THE CAPITALIST;
  Separating Rich People From Their Money

  BYLINE:  By MICHAEL LEWIS

  BODY:
  "It's remarkable. It's absolutely above board, thoroughly honest. It
may sound a little bit too good to be true, but it's absolutely
wonderful." . . . . . . . . MAY 2, 1995.

  "We're not naive dupes, I don't think." . . . MAY 15.


  "Oh, my God, I cannot believe it." . . . . . MAY 16.

  JOHN C. WHITEHEAD, FORMER CO-CHAIRMAN OF GOLDMAN SACHS, SPEAKING TO
STEVE STECKLOW OF THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, AS IT DAWNS ON HIM THAT HE
HAS LOST CLOSE TO $1 MILLION IN THE FOUNDATION FOR NEW ERA
PHILANTHROPY CHARITY FRAUD. THE RICH PROBABLY ARE DIFFERENT from you
and me, if for no other reason than they spend their lives being
treated differently by you and me. Especially in America, where
public goods are scarce and private wealth vast, a rich person is
a walking pinata. He strolls through life stuffed with surpluses
while the rest of us bash away at him with little sticks.


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Sat Dec 21 22:34:51 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 16:34:51 -0600
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938)
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.163451.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We (usually) add sour cream and some kind of creamy soup, put it over
potatoes and call it "stroganoff".  I know it probably is not what most
people would call stroganoff (or however it's spelled), but that's what we
call it, whether served over baked potatoes or over noodles.  Our family
always had an (apparently) odd definition of "goulash" too, which is
basically a "hotdish" (MN) made with elbow macaroni, stewed/canned tomatoes,
a couple of carrots or something cut up in it (if feeling creative), and
browned hamburger meat.
-- Millie


>
> My grandmother (b. 1918) used to make this, mom (b. 1938) picked it up and
> now I make it and serve it over noodles or some other starchy thing. But,
> we've never had a name for it. My mother swears that her grandfather (b.
> 1886), a PA Dutch Mennonite, had a PA Dutch name for it. Anybody have any
> idea what that was? Or what it's called elsewhere? Nowadays we just call
it
> "Grandma Bessie's hamburger gunk," but I'm pretty sure we're the only ones
;-)
>
>
>
> Katy
>
>
> Kathleen E. Miller
> Research Assistant to William Safire
> The New York Times
>


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Sat Dec 21 22:56:20 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 16:56:20 -0600
Subject: OT from Oaktag
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.165620.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Now there's a response with a phrase I associate automatically with New York
(or at least with American Yiddish familiarity): "Knows from X/Y/Z".  As in,
"What would he know from wigs/sherry/lightbulbs."  I love that phrase, and
would use it myself, if I were not nervous about either being misunderstood,
or seen as affecting a non-native usage.  Thank you, Larry: you helped make
my day. -- Millie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Derivation of the word oaktag


>
> Not everyone from NY knows from "oaktag".  Neither my wife nor I (b.
> 1944/45) is familiar with the term--we've always called it "poster
> board".
>
> Larry
>


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Sun Dec 22 01:16:37 2002
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 19:16:37 -0600
Subject: Bumpy Stew
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.191637.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This sounds like the widely loved/detested military mess hall recipe for
"S.O.S.", absent the Shingle (formally called creamed beef, I think.)  I
trust the Jewish girls didn't tell their rabbis of this wonderful dish. <g>
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938); Pozole (1934); Bint El Sahn (1932)


BUMPY STEW

   I was looking for something else, but never mind.  I have a soft spot for
the food of our women's colleges.   "Our teachers--they're of many
creeds--come from everywhere," my hostess said.  "Girls must worship, but as
they like.  We would accept Mohammedans or Buddhists.  I wish we had some.
Catholic, Jewish, or Presbyterian, they all like bumpy stew.  Married
alumnae write for the recipe."
   "I'd like it myself," I said.
   "Fry chopped onions in butter until they're brown.  Then fry ground beef
in the mixture until that's brown.  Sprinkle with flour; add milk, salt, and
pepper.  Keep stirring until it gets bumpy.  Then," she added, "it's bumpy
stew."


From pds at VISI.COM  Sun Dec 22 05:36:27 2002
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:36:27 -0600
Subject: End of year request..
In-Reply-To: <004b01c2a879$455bd2b0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.233627.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More helpful would be an explanation of how Jim might accomplish this in
his e-mail environment, which is AOL. I hope that it *is* possible in AOL.

Some implementations of list name prefixing are really annoying.  Subjects
can end up looking like:

[ADS-L] Re: [ADS-L] Re: [ADS-L] Re: [ADS-L] FW: Question about a possible
new coinage

In the message lists in most e-mail programs, the informative part of this
subject would be truncated.  Filtering (Eudora) or Rules (Outlook) on the
recipient's end is the better way to go, assuming it's possible in one's
mail program.

At 04:43 PM 12/20/2002 -0600, Millie Webb wrote:
>Yes, please try as Thomas suggests.  All you do is set an e-mail message
>"rule" to put everything with ADS in the from line to a folder created just
>for them within your in-box.


  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Sun Dec 22 06:00:55 2002
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 00:00:55 -0600
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 20 Dec 2002 to 21 Dec 2002 (#2002-330)
In-Reply-To: <20021222050103.6B18053F4@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.22.DEC.2002.000055.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Date sent:              Sun, 22 Dec 2002 00:01:01 -0500
Send reply to:          American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
From:                   Automatic digest processor
<LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject:                ADS-L Digest - 20 Dec 2002 to 21 Dec 2002 (#2002-
330)
To:                     Recipients of ADS-L digests <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Date:    Sat, 21 Dec 2002 11:18:57 -0500
> From:    George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "googol"
>
> The name Google may be derived from a mathematical term, but it seems
> likely that it and its pronunciation was influenced by the fact that
> several of its predecessors among web browsers were named after
> cartoon characters.  I recall Archie, which was followed (? if I
> remember) by Veronica.

I believe Archie and Veronica (and Jughead) preceded the web.


From j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Dec 22 06:33:37 2002
From: j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 01:33:37 -0500
Subject: End of year request..
Message-ID: <SUN.22.DEC.2002.013337.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Tom Kysilko wrote:

> Some implementations of list name prefixing are really annoying.  Subjects
> can end up looking like:
>
> [ADS-L] Re: [ADS-L] Re: [ADS-L] Re: [ADS-L] FW: Question about a possible
> new coinage
>
> In the message lists in most e-mail programs, the informative part of this
> subject would be truncated. . . .

In Outlook Express you can elect (through View > Columns...) to display
"From", "To", and "Subject" (among other) columns in your message list.  The
"To" field always begins with "ADS-L", so no need to include that in the
Subject.


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Dec 23 13:46:32 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 05:46:32 -0800
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938)
In-Reply-To: <002601c2a941$2d70f0e0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.054632.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sounds like goulash to me! - only thing odd is you
forgot onions, chopped and cooked with the meat.
Never thought of adding carrots.

JIM (UT)

--- Millie Webb <millie-webb at CHARTER.NET> wrote:
.... Our family
> always had an (apparently) odd definition of
> "goulash" too, which is
> basically a "hotdish" (MN) made with elbow macaroni,
> stewed/canned tomatoes,
> a couple of carrots or something cut up in it (if
> feeling creative), and
> browned hamburger meat.
> -- Millie
>
>
> >
> > My grandmother (b. 1918) used to make this, mom
> (b. 1938) picked it up and
> > now I make it and serve it over noodles or some
> other starchy thing. But,
> > we've never had a name for it. My mother swears
> that her grandfather (b.
> > 1886), a PA Dutch Mennonite, had a PA Dutch name
> for it. Anybody have any
> > idea what that was? Or what it's called elsewhere?
> Nowadays we just call
> it
> > "Grandma Bessie's hamburger gunk," but I'm pretty
> sure we're the only ones
> ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> > Katy
> >
> >
> > Kathleen E. Miller
> > Research Assistant to William Safire
> > The New York Times
> >


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Dec 23 14:04:18 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 06:04:18 -0800
Subject: Three Wise Men With Fire Hats
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.060418.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A little dialectical humor for the holidays.  From the
internet - original author unknown.

The Three Wise Men - With Fire Hats

In a small Southern town there was a "Nativity Scene"
that showed great skill and talent had gone into
creating it. One small feature bothered me. The three
wise men were wearing firemen's helmets.

Totally unable to come up with a reason or
explanation, I left. At a "Quick Stop" on the edge of
town, I asked the lady behind the counter about the
helmets.

She exploded into a rage, yelling at me, "You damn
Yankees never do read the Bible!"

I assured her that I did, but simply couldn't recall
anything about firemen in the Bible.

She jerked her Bible from behind the counter and
ruffled through some pages, and finally jabbed her
finger at a passage.

Sticking it in my face she said, "See, it says right
here, 'The three wise man came from afar.'"



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 23 16:06:33 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:06:33 EST
Subject: American Speech electronic version
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.110633.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of the fringe benefits of ADS membership is access to current and recent
past issues of American Speech online . . . sometimes even before it's mailed
out. You may not yet have Vol. 77, issue 4 (I don't), but you can view the
table of contents online at Project Muse:

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/american_speech/toc/as77.4.html

Now if you're at an institution that subscribes to Project Muse, you can then
read the individual articles of this special issue dedicated to the memory of
Fred Cassidy. But if not, and if you're an ADS member, send me a message at
this address:
AAllan at aol.com
and I will send you the login and password you need to access this and all
issues of American Speech going back through 1999.

(It may be a little while before I get back to you, because after today I
don't expect to be online again till Tuesday the 31st.)

- Allan Metcalf


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Mon Dec 23 16:49:45 2002
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Hall)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:49:45 -0600
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212202025280.90439336-100000@shell01.TheWor
 ld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.104945.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm appalled that that was there (written by a student programmer), but
glad that you pointed it out so that we can take it out.  We hadn't seen it
because our browsers were set to handle the frames.

At 08:27 PM 12/20/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote:
>
>#"Arthur the Rat" can be found at the DARE site:
>#http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html
>
>I just got this message, displayed here verbatim by copy-&-paste:
>         >>>>>
>
>    The information in this page is displayed in frames. Either You have
>    the frame feature of your browser turned off. Or Your using a very old
>    browser..Please Update for viewing
>
>         <<<<<
>What do people think of
>  1: its user-friendliness?
>  2: its grammaticality?
>  3: its suitability to the DARE website?
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 23 16:58:51 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:58:51 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Kenya greetings
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.115851.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>From Barry.

--JTS

----- Forwarded message from SSSL1 at serenalodge.net -----

Subject: Kenya greetings
Date: 23 Dec 2002 16:24:00 -0000
From: SSSL1 at serenalodge.net
To: jester at panix.com
X-Mailer: Bushmail 3.0.895
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.1 required=5.0
        tests=NO_REAL_NAME,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,SUPERLONG_LINE
        version=2.43
X-Spam-Level: **

Hakuna Matata everybody!  I'm in the Samburu Serena Lodge in Kenya.  Kenyan elections are just four days away.
   I can send e-mail from this address and receive it, but I can't get on AOL.  These lodges don't seem to have internet, and the internet at the Nairobi Hilton was out when I stayed there. So don't expect much e-mailing from here.

AFRICAN WAVE--waving by little kids, who want pens and candy.

ANIMAL WAKE-UP CALL--Available at my last lodge.  I thought it was "The cow says--Moo!  Seven o'clock and time to get up!"  But no.  The lodge has someone looking at the waterhole during the night.  If your requested animal (say, a hippo) is spotted, you're woken up.  3 a.m. elephant wake-ups.  What a vacation!

STOP STICKS--Like sleeping policemen, but these are sticks with spikes in them.  You can't go over them, but must go around them.  Also just called "road blocks."

MANDAZI--Donuts, without holes.  The Hilton had them triangular, the lodge had them round.  No filling.

MUTATU--A bus service.

QUADRUPLE WITCHING--FINANCIAL TIMES, December 21-22, 2002, pg. 13, col. 1: "Traders were braced for volatility because of what was being dubbed 'quadruple witching'--the usual triple expiry of stock options, index options and index futures, plus expiry of newly introduced single stock futures contracts."

CNN EFFECT--FINANCIAL TIMES, December 20, 2002, pg. 25, col. 4:  "The last conflict in the Middle East in 1991 also impaired confidence.  Consumers postponed purchases due to uncertainty and because they were glued to their television sets following the conflict--the 'CNN effect.'"

----- End forwarded message -----


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Dec 23 17:32:24 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:32:24 -0500
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021223104800.025a9158@wiscmail.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.123224.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 23 Dec 2002, Joan Hall wrote:

#I'm appalled that that was there (written by a student programmer), but
#glad that you pointed it out so that we can take it out.  We hadn't seen it
#because our browsers were set to handle the frames.

Does the content of the site require frames? (That was part of what I
meant by "user-friendliness", the other part, of course, being the
wording.) That is, can it be made accessible to the frameless?

-- Mark A. Mandel


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 23 22:10:53 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:10:53 -0800
Subject: Palatalization
In-Reply-To: <20021223140418.59941.qmail@web9707.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.141053.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That story of the 3 wise men coming from a fire brings to mind another
illustration for Ling. 101: a Little Johnny story.

The children are drawing manger scenes [OK, so it's not a public school].
The teacher notices a very--um--large fellow standing in back of the
manger and asks Little Johnny who that might be: "Well, that's Mary, and
that's Joseph, and that's little Baby Jesus...and that's Round John
Virgin."

Happy holidays, all.

Peter R.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Dec 23 22:13:26 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:13:26 -0500
Subject: Fwd: origin of word picnic
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.171326.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of the rather more offensive folk etymologies needs a bit of
debunking. Would some please respond to this claim in full "actually,
no" mode? Directly to the original sender, if you would.

Début du message réexpédié :

> De: "Greg Maccarone" <gamsky at sbcglobal.net>
> Date: Mon 23 Dec 2002  13:18:43 America/New_York
> Objet: origin of word picnic
>
> My daughter (in 12th grade) discussed the origin of the word "picnic"
> with me. To my surprise, a classmate told her it meant "pic a
> []igger". Supposedly, a group of people would meet to eat, and then
> select a person of African descent to be hung from a tree.
>
> I am shocked that this information is out there without any check for
> accuracy. Please help. What do you recommend? Thanks


From kawase at GW8.GATEWAY.NE.JP  Mon Dec 23 22:20:29 2002
From: kawase at GW8.GATEWAY.NE.JP (Taketoshi Kawase)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:20:29 +0900
Subject: American Speech electronic version
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.072029.0900.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Professor Allan,

I am a life member of ADS and would like to read American Speech online.
Please send me the login and password which is  needed to access this and all
issues of American Speech going back through 1999.
Thank you for your attention in advance.

Taketoshi Kawase
kawase at gw8.gateway.ne.jp


----- Original Message -----
From: <AAllan at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 1:06 AM
Subject: American Speech electronic version


> One of the fringe benefits of ADS membership is access to current and recent
> past issues of American Speech online . . . sometimes even before it's mailed
> out. You may not yet have Vol. 77, issue 4 (I don't), but you can view the
> table of contents online at Project Muse:
>
> http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/american_speech/toc/as77.4.html
>
> Now if you're at an institution that subscribes to Project Muse, you can then
> read the individual articles of this special issue dedicated to the memory of
> Fred Cassidy. But if not, and if you're an ADS member, send me a message at
> this address:
> AAllan at aol.com
> and I will send you the login and password you need to access this and all
> issues of American Speech going back through 1999.
>
> (It may be a little while before I get back to you, because after today I
> don't expect to be online again till Tuesday the 31st.)
>
> - Allan Metcalf


From kawase at GW8.GATEWAY.NE.JP  Mon Dec 23 22:46:07 2002
From: kawase at GW8.GATEWAY.NE.JP (Taketoshi Kawase)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:46:07 +0900
Subject: American Speech electronic version
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.074607.0900.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear All,

Inadvertently I sent my personal message to you all.
I am sorry for any trouble this might have caused.

Taketoshi Kawase


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 23 22:52:03 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:52:03 EST
Subject: Fwd: origin of word picnic
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.175203.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/23/2002 5:14:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes:

> One of the rather more offensive folk etymologies needs a bit of
>  debunking. Would some please respond to this claim in full "actually,
>  no" mode? Directly to the original sender, if you would.
>
>  Début du message réexpédié :
>
>  > De: "Greg Maccarone" <gamsky at sbcglobal.net>
>  > Date: Mon 23 Dec 2002  13:18:43 America/New_York
>  > Objet: origin of word picnic
>  >
>  > My daughter (in 12th grade) discussed the origin of the word "picnic"
>  > with me. To my surprise, a classmate told her it meant "pic a
>  > []igger". Supposedly, a group of people would meet to eat, and then
>  > select a person of African descent to be hung from a tree.
>  >
>  > I am shocked that this information is out there without any check for
>  > accuracy. Please help. What do you recommend? Thanks

Here is something from ADS-L that may be relevant:

Subj:         Re: nitty-gritty: racist term?
Date:   05/15/2002 3:08:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)

>>... UK police are not allowed to use the term 'nitty gritty' because it
>>allegedly originally meant the waste at the bottom of a slave ship once
>>the slaves were taken off.
>
>Another silly baseless etymythology, I think.
>
>Before further examination of this expression's amazing 250-year
>politically-charged history, let's see a single citation from before 1950.
>
Indeed.  Here's a clip from Michael Quinion's column (see URL below).
Of course this was before we'd been able to file it under etymythology   ;-)

World Wide Words -- 4 Nov 00

Q. Any ideas on the origins of the expression 'nitty-gritty'? I
heard today a rather horrible suggestion that it referred to the
debris left in the bottom of slave ships after their voyages, once
the slaves remaining alive had been removed. [Helen Norris]

A. This belongs in the same line of folklore which holds that a
'picnic' was a slave lynching party. There is a very slight link,
in that 'nitty-gritty' was indeed originally a Black American
English expression. However, it dates only from the 1950s.

John Lighter, in the _Random House Historical Dictionary of
American Slang_, records the first example from 1956: "You'll find
nobody comes down to the nitty-gritty when it calls for namin'
things for what they are". As it is here fully formed, and has the
now customary sense of the fundamental issues or most important
aspects of some situation, it had by then probably already been in
use for some while. But it is inconceivable that it should have
been around since slave-ship days without somebody writing it down.

Its origins are elusive. The most usual explanation is that it is a
reduplication - using the same mechanism that has given us 'willy-
nilly', 'namby-pamby' and 'itsy-bitsy' - of the standard English
word 'gritty'. This has the literal sense of containing or being
covered with grit, but figuratively means showing courage and
resolve, so the link is plausible.

=====
[follow-up, 11/11/00]

NITTY-GRITTY  Following last week's Q&A piece on this phrase, J D
Hamilton wrote: "I am 81 years old and I have been hearing the
words 'nitty gritty' since early childhood in western Canada. It
was always 'down to the nitty gritty' or close to bedrock and meant
facing reality and coping with it". This is interesting, since it
contradicts the usual view that it derives from 1950s black usage.
In 1974, a writer in _American Speech_, the journal of the American
Dialect Society, also claimed memory of the term from the 1920s,
but in the southern states of the US. I've added some more
information to the archived copy of the piece, which is on the
Words site at <http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-nit2.htm>.


From self at TOWSE.COM  Mon Dec 23 23:00:57 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:00:57 -0800
Subject: Fwd: origin of word picnic
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.150057.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"James A. Landau" wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/23/2002 5:14:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes:
>
> > One of the rather more offensive folk etymologies needs a bit of
> >  debunking. Would some please respond to this claim in full "actually,
> >  no" mode? Directly to the original sender, if you would.
> >
> >  Début du message réexpédié :
> >
> >  > De: "Greg Maccarone" <gamsky at sbcglobal.net>
> >  > Date: Mon 23 Dec 2002  13:18:43 America/New_York
> >  > Objet: origin of word picnic
> >  >
> >  > My daughter (in 12th grade) discussed the origin of the word "picnic"
> >  > with me. To my surprise, a classmate told her it meant "pic a
> >  > []igger". Supposedly, a group of people would meet to eat, and then
> >  > select a person of African descent to be hung from a tree.
> >  >
> >  > I am shocked that this information is out there without any check for
> >  > accuracy. Please help. What do you recommend? Thanks
>
> Here is something from ADS-L that may be relevant:
>
> Subj:         Re: nitty-gritty: racist term?
> Date:   05/15/2002 3:08:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> From:   laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
>
> >>... UK police are not allowed to use the term 'nitty gritty' because it
> >>allegedly originally meant the waste at the bottom of a slave ship once
> >>the slaves were taken off.
> >
> >Another silly baseless etymythology, I think.
> >
> >Before further examination of this expression's amazing 250-year
> >politically-charged history, let's see a single citation from before 1950.
> >
> Indeed.  Here's a clip from Michael Quinion's column (see URL below).
> Of course this was before we'd been able to file it under etymythology   ;-)
>
> World Wide Words -- 4 Nov 00

I sent Greg Maccarone a link to Michael Quinion's column that
specifically debunks the origin given for "picnic":
<http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pic1.htm>

Sal
--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Mon Dec 23 23:29:45 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:29:45 -0500
Subject: It's Jon, not John
In-Reply-To: <d.56498ea.2b38ed93@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.182945.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>John Lighter, in the _Random House Historical Dictionary of

Should be Jon (for Jonathan).

Bethany


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 23 23:56:52 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:56:52 EST
Subject: WOTY
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.185652.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A long-shot (pun intended) for word of the year: "Gun lock" (or "trigger
lock" or "smart gun").

I was reminded of this when I discovered a man who gave his kids toy gun
locks for their toy guns.

     - Jim Landau


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Dec 24 09:27:32 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 09:27:32 -0000
Subject: It's Jon, not John
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0212231828280.19504-100000@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.092732.0000.>

> >John Lighter, in the _Random House Historical Dictionary of
> Should be Jon (for Jonathan).

Who was it who said that our good deeds are soon forgotten but that
our errors follow us for ever? It might, now I think about it, have
been me. I made that mistake in the newsletter, but corrected it on
the Web page at <http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-nit2.htm>. While
I am confessing my sins, on two other occasions I spelt Dr Lighter's
first name as "Jonathon", for which the most slender finger of blame
must be pointed at Jonathon Green's parents ...

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Dec 24 17:31:28 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 12:31:28 -0500
Subject: Gender-neutrality of "-person" forms
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.123128.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I seem to recall an article in the mid-1990s addressing
the issue of whether "-person" forms (e.g. "chairperson")
are truly gender-neutral or if they're marked as feminine
forms. I also seem to recall seeing something very
recently referring to this article, perhaps with more
research or something.

Can anyone help me out with this? I'm working on a mainstream
and short-deadlined article myself that might mention this
phenomenon, and I'd like to get the facts right.

Thanks.

Jesse Sheidlower


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 24 19:45:03 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 14:45:03 -0500
Subject: Chile con carne
In-Reply-To: <65.4fb3af2.2b33d5cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.144503.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:09 PM -0500 12/19/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>---------------------------------------------
>CHILE CON CARNE
>
>    Supposedly, the first "chile con carne" citation is 1857.  Supposedly,
>it's an American dish.  John Mariani's encyclopedia includes that famous
>quotation that chile con carne is "a detestable food with a false Mexican
>title which is sold in the United States from Texas to New York."
>    So what do you make of this, which I came across today?...
>MEMOIRS OF THE MEXICAN REVOLUTION
>by William Davis Robinson
>Philadelphia: Lydia R. Bailey, printer
>1820
>
>Pg. 71:  ..."the end justifies the means."
>
>Pg. 84:  ..._rancho_*...
>*_Rancho_ signifies a farm...
>
>Pg. 150:  ..._chile_ (capsicum_)...
>Pg. 150:  For all culinary purposes, this vegetable is as essential to the
>Mexican, as salt is to the European, and indeed more so, because a Mexican
>would rather go without bread, than lack chile with his meat.
>
>(Yes, no "chile con carne," but "chile with his meat" is close--ed.)


I'd say no relation whatsoever.  Chile con carne, on which I tend to
agree with the famous quotation, is a specific dish--with many
variants--involving braised and/or stewed meat with beans and/or
tomatoes and some seasonings involving fresh chile peppers or more
likely chile/chili powder.  The context of the above quote is one in
which meat is served with chiles served as a condiment on the side or
involved in the preparation or both, either of which is far more
typical of Mexican food than "chile con carne" of the type found at
chile cookoffs in the U.S. or canned by Hormel.  In the context, I
wouldn't agree that "chile con carne" in the modern sense is at all
close to "chile with meat".  (And, yes, I'm aware that I'm spelling
that second vowel in the keyword inconsistently.)

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 24 19:42:55 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 14:42:55 -0500
Subject: Dogcatcher elections (1906); Fired With Enthusiasm (1932?);
 Chile con carne
In-Reply-To: <65.4fb3af2.2b33d5cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.144255.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>DOGCATCHER ELECTIONS
>
>    You used to hear this phrase all the time.  However, it seems to have
>disappeared, with most of the dogcatchers.  Trent Lott's star has fallen so
>fast, for example, that he "couldn't get elected dog-catcher."
>    I didn't see it in the RHHDAS or in William Safire's POLITICAL DICTIONARY.
>  It's not in the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG.
>    I think it did start with the below-mentioned candidate.  I haven't
>checked the WASHINGTON POST.
>
>
>    10 October 1906, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 2:
>       _Hearst in California._
>    "Hearst couldn't be elected dog catcher in any part of my State," declared
>State Treasurer Truman Reeves of California yesterday to Mayor McClellan, on
>whom he paid a social call.
>
>    1 April 1968, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 28:
>    Of the President (LBJ--ed.), she said, "I think he saw the opposition
>growing so great that he couldn't run for dog catcher and would rather go
>down in history as having done his best than be defeated in November."
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>---------------------------------------------
>FIRED WITH ENTHUSIASM
>
>    Not to be confused with CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM, the HBO show by Larry David,
>a co-creator of SEINFELD.   Perhaps Fred Shapiro has some thoughts on the
>purported Vince Lombardi coinage.
>
>
>    7 September 1970, NEW YORK TIMES, "Lombardi Without Tears" by Robert
>Lipsyte, pg. 24:
>    WIth the same personality and a lesser intelligence, Lombardi would never
>have been able to tell men that they had better be "fired with enthusiasm or
>you'll be fired with enthusiasm."
>
>    16 September 1932, NEW YORK TIMES< pg. 16:
>    Eugene Savage, mural painter, said that if the student going to the
>American Academy in Rome "was not fired with enthusiasm, he should be fired
>by the director."
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>---------------------------------------------
>CHILE CON CARNE
>
>    Supposedly, the first "chile con carne" citation is 1857.  Supposedly,
>it's an American dish.  John Mariani's encyclopedia includes that famous
>quotation that chile con carne is "a detestable food with a false Mexican
>title which is sold in the United States from Texas to New York."
>    So what do you make of this, which I came across today?
>
>MEMOIRS OF THE MEXICAN REVOLUTION
>by William Davis Robinson
>Philadelphia: Lydia R. Bailey, printer
>1820
>
>Pg. 71:  ..."the end justifies the means."
>
>Pg. 84:  ..._rancho_*...
>*_Rancho_ signifies a farm...
>
>Pg. 150:  ..._chile_ (capsicum_)...
>Pg. 150:  For all culinary purposes, this vegetable is as essential to the
>Mexican, as salt is to the European, and indeed more so, because a Mexican
>would rather go without bread, than lack chile with his meat.
>
>(Yes, no "chile con carne," but "chile with his meat" is close--ed.)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>---------------------------------------------
>BORDELAISE SAUCE (continued)
>
>    I added the WIlliam Makepeace Thackeray citation for "escargot," but left
>off that he has one for "Bordelaise sauce" as well.  It's on LITERATURE
>ONLINE and another database (MOA-Mich. books?).
>    William Makepeace Thackeray, THE ADVENTURES OF PHILIP ON HIS WAY THROUGH
>THE WORLD (1860; NY: Harper Brothers, 1862), pg. 144:  "Aren't you tired of
>truffles and ecrevisses a la Bordelaise;..."
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>--------------------------------------------
>PORTOBELLO MUSHROOMS
>
>    The NEW YORK TIMES article is 23 October 1985, pg. C1, "Growing U.S. Taste
>for Mushrooms."


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Dec 24 20:03:32 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 12:03:32 -0800
Subject: Chile con carne
In-Reply-To: <p04320403ba2e444f6570@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.120332.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree with Larry that the 1820 quote is not related to what is
usually meant by "chile con carne" but I don't think that beans are a
required ingredient.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:

> At 9:09 PM -0500 12/19/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >---------------------------------------------
> >CHILE CON CARNE
> >
> >    Supposedly, the first "chile con carne" citation is 1857.  Supposedly,
> >it's an American dish.  John Mariani's encyclopedia includes that famous
> >quotation that chile con carne is "a detestable food with a false Mexican
> >title which is sold in the United States from Texas to New York."
> >    So what do you make of this, which I came across today?...
> >MEMOIRS OF THE MEXICAN REVOLUTION
> >by William Davis Robinson
> >Philadelphia: Lydia R. Bailey, printer
> >1820
> >
> >Pg. 71:  ..."the end justifies the means."
> >
> >Pg. 84:  ..._rancho_*...
> >*_Rancho_ signifies a farm...
> >
> >Pg. 150:  ..._chile_ (capsicum_)...
> >Pg. 150:  For all culinary purposes, this vegetable is as essential to the
> >Mexican, as salt is to the European, and indeed more so, because a Mexican
> >would rather go without bread, than lack chile with his meat.
> >
> >(Yes, no "chile con carne," but "chile with his meat" is close--ed.)
>
>
> I'd say no relation whatsoever.  Chile con carne, on which I tend to
> agree with the famous quotation, is a specific dish--with many
> variants--involving braised and/or stewed meat with beans and/or
> tomatoes and some seasonings involving fresh chile peppers or more
> likely chile/chili powder.  The context of the above quote is one in
> which meat is served with chiles served as a condiment on the side or
> involved in the preparation or both, either of which is far more
> typical of Mexican food than "chile con carne" of the type found at
> chile cookoffs in the U.S. or canned by Hormel.  In the context, I
> wouldn't agree that "chile con carne" in the modern sense is at all
> close to "chile with meat".  (And, yes, I'm aware that I'm spelling
> that second vowel in the keyword inconsistently.)
>
> larry
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 24 20:13:34 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:13:34 -0500
Subject: Fwd: origin of word picnic
In-Reply-To: <3E0795A9.9FB471DD@towse.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.151334.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:00 PM -0800 12/23/02, Towse wrote:
>
>I sent Greg Maccarone a link to Michael Quinion's column that
>specifically debunks the origin given for "picnic":
><http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pic1.htm>
>
See also http://www.snopes.com/language/offense/picnic.htm

Larry Horn


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Tue Dec 24 21:22:48 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:22:48 -0600
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938)
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.152248.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We made very few dishes with onions.  Probably too "jazzed up" for a MN
hotdish.  :-)   I have seven siblings, and none of us tried anything "hot",
"spicy" or whatever until we moved out from home!  I remember deciding at
one point that my dad's British/English background had caught up with him,
and rendered him unable to cook or eat anything made with "spices" more
exotic than salt.  ;-)   And my father did approximately 95% of the cooking
in our house....  Millie

PS - In my experience, you can add carrots to almost anything to up the
"veggie" content, even with the pickiest children who "don't eat
vegetables".  (Spaghetti sauce, chicken popovers, pot roast, manicotti --
seriously.)

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Smith" <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: Bumpy Stew (1938)


> Sounds like goulash to me! - only thing odd is you
> forgot onions, chopped and cooked with the meat.
> Never thought of adding carrots.
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Dec 25 00:51:02 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 19:51:02 -0500
Subject: Chile con carne
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0212241154140.80224-100000@homer07.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.195102.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:03 PM -0800 12/24/02, A. Maberry wrote:
>I agree with Larry that the 1820 quote is not related to what is
>usually meant by "chile con carne" but I don't think that beans are a
>required ingredient.
>
>allen
>maberry at u.washington.edu
>
I agree.  In fact the "authentic" versions I've seen recipes for are
a bit closer to one kind of meat-with-chile, consisting of braised
stew beef in small chunks (but not ground beef) cooked with various
spices and with neither beans nor tomatoes (including paste or puree)
added.  Still, that's definitely the minority version served in this
country, and you won't find it in cans.  I suspect that those who
cook it in the "authentic" style tend not to call it chile con carne,
if only because of guilt by association; "chile" or "chili" tout
court is used instead.  Some of you have no doubt been to more chile
cookoffs than I have, and can speak from more authority.

L


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec 26 08:18:01 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 00:18:01 -0800
Subject: WOTY
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.001801.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Did any of you in the SF Bay Area catch KRON (Channel 4) news
tonight?  I came in just as they were doing someone's Top 10 Words of
the Year.  Unfortunately, it was too fast for me to catch them, and I
couldn't find anything on their website.  I only remember Listeria,
which is completely uninteresting (unless you've got it, of course).

The main one, however, was misunderestimate.  That surely ought to be
nominated.

Rima


From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST  Thu Dec 26 10:35:01 2002
From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 11:35:01 +0100
Subject: Dumb clock defence
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.113501.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A translator colleague has asked me for the meaning of "dumb clock defence". I don't have the slightest clue. Does anyone on the list know the expression?
Jan Ivarsson, TransEdit
Translator, Subtitler
jan.ivarsson at transedit.st
http://www.transedit.st


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 26 13:28:56 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 08:28:56 EST
Subject: Dumb clock defence
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.082856.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/26/02 5:33:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST writes:

> A translator colleague has asked me for the meaning of "dumb clock defence".

Something from tournament chess, where you have to consider the clock as well
as your opponent's moves?

     - Jim Landau


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Dec 26 14:10:20 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 06:10:20 -0800
Subject: Chile con carne
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0212241154140.80224-100000@homer07.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.061020.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am not a chili aficionado, but I understand that
putting beans in chili at a serious chili cook-off
will get one drawn and quartered.



--- "A. Maberry" <maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU> wrote:
> I agree with Larry that the 1820 quote is not
> related to what is
> usually meant by "chile con carne" but I don't think
> that beans are a
> required ingredient.
>
> allen
> maberry at u.washington.edu
>
>
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> > At 9:09 PM -0500 12/19/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> >
> > >---------------------------------------------
> > >CHILE CON CARNE
> > >
> > >    Supposedly, the first "chile con carne"
> citation is 1857.  Supposedly,
> > >it's an American dish.  John Mariani's
> encyclopedia includes that famous
> > >quotation that chile con carne is "a detestable
> food with a false Mexican
> > >title which is sold in the United States from
> Texas to New York."
> > >    So what do you make of this, which I came
> across today?...
> > >MEMOIRS OF THE MEXICAN REVOLUTION
> > >by William Davis Robinson
> > >Philadelphia: Lydia R. Bailey, printer
> > >1820
> > >
> > >Pg. 71:  ..."the end justifies the means."
> > >
> > >Pg. 84:  ..._rancho_*...
> > >*_Rancho_ signifies a farm...
> > >
> > >Pg. 150:  ..._chile_ (capsicum_)...
> > >Pg. 150:  For all culinary purposes, this
> vegetable is as essential to the
> > >Mexican, as salt is to the European, and indeed
> more so, because a Mexican
> > >would rather go without bread, than lack chile
> with his meat.
> > >
> > >(Yes, no "chile con carne," but "chile with his
> meat" is close--ed.)
> >
> >
> > I'd say no relation whatsoever.  Chile con carne,
> on which I tend to
> > agree with the famous quotation, is a specific
> dish--with many
> > variants--involving braised and/or stewed meat
> with beans and/or
> > tomatoes and some seasonings involving fresh chile
> peppers or more
> > likely chile/chili powder.  The context of the
> above quote is one in
> > which meat is served with chiles served as a
> condiment on the side or
> > involved in the preparation or both, either of
> which is far more
> > typical of Mexican food than "chile con carne" of
> the type found at
> > chile cookoffs in the U.S. or canned by Hormel.
> In the context, I
> > wouldn't agree that "chile con carne" in the
> modern sense is at all
> > close to "chile with meat".  (And, yes, I'm aware
> that I'm spelling
> > that second vowel in the keyword inconsistently.)
> >
> > larry
> >

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
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From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 26 15:20:18 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 10:20:18 EST
Subject: Dumb clock defence
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.102018.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/26/02 5:33:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST writes:

> A translator colleague has asked me for the meaning of "dumb clock defence".

A misprint for "dumb cluck defense", in which someone defends himself by
pretending to be a "dumb cluck"?

     - Jim Landau


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Thu Dec 26 16:19:48 2002
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 11:19:48 -0500
Subject: WOTY
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.111948.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

are we subcategorizing again this year? There's a Most Otiose, right?

because some offerings (mine, for e.g. of the verb Winona) aren't
necessarily The WOTY, but are good nominations for a type of WOTY.

Most mean-spirited? Most quickly adopted by speakers under 24? Most
morphologically radical?

beth

beth lee simon
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu


From Friolly at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 26 19:28:54 2002
From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 14:28:54 EST
Subject: know from
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.142854.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The first time I remember hearing this was in the movie "The gods must be
Crazy."  The scientist, his buddy and the Bushman are going to drive
somewhere and the bushman just runs onto the vehicle without using the door.
The buddy says, "he doesn't know from doors."  So, I had always associated it
with South african english. I did hear it a few days ago on Hogan's Heroes,
though. Marya, the Russian woman, says "What do I know from Rockets?"
However, she is playing a native speaker of Russian.  I don't know why the
writers would have put that phrase into the story, though.  Is it common in
Russian-English?  I have never heard it from any of my Russian students or
contacts.
Fritz

> Now there's a response with a phrase I associate automatically with New York
> (or at least with American Yiddish familiarity): "Knows from X/Y/Z".  As
> in,
> "What would he know from wigs/sherry/lightbulbs."  I love that phrase, and
> would use it myself, if I were not nervous about either being
> misunderstood,
> or seen as affecting a non-native usage.  Thank you, Larry: you helped make
> my day. -- Millie


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Thu Dec 26 19:30:03 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:30:03 -0700
Subject: Chile con carne
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.123003.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This has been a staple dish in "Mexican food" restaurants in Texas along
the border since the 1940s at least. The first time I had Hungarian
goulash in Germany, I realized that it was basically the same dish. I
doubt that Anglos would have invented an authentic Spanish name for the
dish. It probably has its roots in the North Mexican hacienda culture
which was the source of our own cowboy tradition, and is the kind of tangy
stew that was probably often served by cooks on cattle drives. It may have
evolved from the original Spanish/Mexican recipe in the process.

        Rudy


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec 26 21:05:58 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 16:05:58 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <1a8.e567a81.2b3cb276@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.160558.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:28 PM -0500 12/26/02, Fritz Juengling wrote:
>The first time I remember hearing this was in the movie "The gods must be
>Crazy."  The scientist, his buddy and the Bushman are going to drive
>somewhere and the bushman just runs onto the vehicle without using the door.
>The buddy says, "he doesn't know from doors."  So, I had always associated it
>with South african english. I did hear it a few days ago on Hogan's Heroes,
>though. Marya, the Russian woman, says "What do I know from Rockets?"
>However, she is playing a native speaker of Russian.  I don't know why the
>writers would have put that phrase into the story, though.  Is it common in
>Russian-English?  I have never heard it from any of my Russian students or
>contacts.
>Fritz
>
My guess, based on the above, is that it was incorporated into New
York City English from Yiddish, which (again based on the above)
calqued "know from" from Russian.  All speculative, though.

Larry


From self at TOWSE.COM  Thu Dec 26 21:09:22 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 13:09:22 -0800
Subject: know from
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.130922.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> At 2:28 PM -0500 12/26/02, Fritz Juengling wrote:
> >The first time I remember hearing this was in the movie "The gods must be
> >Crazy."  The scientist, his buddy and the Bushman are going to drive
> >somewhere and the bushman just runs onto the vehicle without using the door.
> >The buddy says, "he doesn't know from doors."  So, I had always associated it
> >with South african english. I did hear it a few days ago on Hogan's Heroes,
> >though. Marya, the Russian woman, says "What do I know from Rockets?"
> >However, she is playing a native speaker of Russian.  I don't know why the
> >writers would have put that phrase into the story, though.  Is it common in
> >Russian-English?  I have never heard it from any of my Russian students or
> >contacts.
> >Fritz
> >
> My guess, based on the above, is that it was incorporated into New
> York City English from Yiddish, which (again based on the above)
> calqued "know from" from Russian.  All speculative, though.

I'm reminded of Fuji Kobiaji, the POW character in "McHale's
Navy," who used to use "Oy, vey!" Perhaps it was the
screenwriters just having fun?

Sal

--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Dec 26 21:23:47 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 16:23:47 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <p04320402ba311f558a0f@[130.132.166.208]>
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.162347.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Know from" looks to me like an inept translation of German "wissen von
[etwas]" = "know about/of [something]" (cf. "von hier" = "from here" etc.).

[Perhaps some of the scholars can correct or improve this casual notion.]

-- Doug Wilson


From zafav at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 26 22:33:59 2002
From: zafav at HOTMAIL.COM (zafer avþar)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 22:33:59 +0000
Subject: Dumb clock defence
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.223359.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't know the meaning of it, addition to this, Do you need Turkish
subtitles for your any project. In other words, do you need Turkish
translator
zafav at hotmail.com






>From: Jan Ivarsson TransEdit <jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Dumb clock defence
>Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 11:35:01 +0100
>
>A translator colleague has asked me for the meaning of "dumb clock
>defence". I don't have the slightest clue. Does anyone on the list know the
>expression?
>Jan Ivarsson, TransEdit
>Translator, Subtitler
>jan.ivarsson at transedit.st
>http://www.transedit.st


_________________________________________________________________
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From Friolly at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 26 23:26:01 2002
From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 18:26:01 EST
Subject: know from
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.182601.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

the German/Yiddish connection might explain 'know from' in South African
English.  There were many early settlers from Germany in South Africa. There
have also been many Jewish (many of whom were Yiddish speakers) settlers as
well.  Of course, Afrikaans descends from Dutch dialects.  So, these three
languages may have had some influence on S Afr Eng.  I don't know whether it
is found in Aus, NZ or any British English dialect, though.
Does Russian say 'know from'?
Fritz

> My guess, based on the above, is that it was incorporated into New
> York City English from Yiddish, which (again based on the above)
> calqued "know from" from Russian.  All speculative, though.


From self at TOWSE.COM  Thu Dec 26 23:36:52 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 15:36:52 -0800
Subject: Dumb clock defence
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.153652.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote:
>
> A translator colleague has asked me for the meaning of "dumb clock defence". I don't
> have the slightest clue. Does anyone on the list know the expression?

Found an instance of "clock defense" as a USAn football term, but
if you're talking of a USAn term, it doesn't make sense for the
spelling to be "defence" and not "defense."

<http://www.homersmith.net/Article%20Series/manageclock3.htm>

If you're using the clock defense stupidly, I'd imagine that
someone might call your plan a "dumb clock defense."

In what context is the term used?

Sal
--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Dec 27 00:42:43 2002
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 19:42:43 -0500
Subject: Dumb clock defence
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.194243.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Towse" <self at TOWSE.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: Dumb clock defence


> Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote:
> >
> > A translator colleague has asked me for the meaning of "dumb clock
defence". I don't
> > have the slightest clue. Does anyone on the list know the expression?

I am using the "dumb clock" defense in my pleadings about my computer being
off  :)

"I can't respond to your question, but I can tell you that the
calendar on your computer is off by 5 years.  It came in dated
12/24/97."

Rima


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Dec 27 00:57:47 2002
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 19:57:47 -0500
Subject: know from
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.195747.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fritz Juengling" <Friolly at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 2:28 PM
Subject: know from


> The first time I remember hearing this was in the movie "The gods must be
> Crazy."  The scientist, his buddy and the Bushman are going to drive
> somewhere and the bushman just runs onto the vehicle without using the
door.
> The buddy says, "he doesn't know from doors."  So, I had always associated
it
> with South african english. I did hear it a few days ago on Hogan's
Heroes,
> though. Marya, the Russian woman, says "What do I know from Rockets?"
> However, she is playing a native speaker of Russian.  I don't know why the
> writers would have put that phrase into the story, though.  Is it common
in
> Russian-English?  I have never heard it from any of my Russian students or
> contacts.
> Fritz
>
If I"m not repeating something that has been posted before, RHHDAS
attributes it to
    [<Yid- tsu visn fun gornisht 'to be ignorant'] and cites it from
1934(although Barry cited it earlier from 1933 at Temple U.)


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 27 02:32:07 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 21:32:07 EST
Subject: Judaica antedatings
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.213207.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What follows is my list of Jewish terms for which I have an antedating to the
date on the OED2 CD-ROM (of which I have the 1st edition).

The following terms I have not yet submitted to the OED but intend to in the
next day or so: Heshvan, kosher, perfect year, potato pancake, shochet, and
Veadar.  All others have already been submitted.

Bat mitzvah      (OED 1952)         Barry Popik has 1922
Chanukah         (OED 1891)    1843 [H] also 1864, 1868, 1872,
                               1878.  Barry Popik has 1841
Fast of Esther   (not in OED)  1843 [H]
Fast of Gedalia  (not in OED)  1843 [H]
fleishig         (not in OED)  1912 [B page 79]
gabbai           (not in OED)  1758 [C vol I pages 83f],
                               1903 [D vol V page 538]
goy              (OED 1841)    1800 [G page 592], sometime in
                               17th century [C vol II page 497]
Heshvan          (OED 1833)    1758  [C vol I page 83f]
High Holy Days   (not in OED)  1923 [E page 161]
Hoshanna Rabba   (not in OED)  1843 [H]
Karaism          (OED 1882 but "Karaitism" 1741)  1771 [F]
kehillah         (OED 1882)    1765 [C vol I page 86]
kishke           (OED 1936)    1912 [B page 145]
kosher           (OED 1851)    1825 [G page 525],
                                    Barry Popik has 1816
mahamad          (OED 1831)    1783 [C vol II page 157]
matzah           (OED 1846)    1825 [G pages 529ff]
milchig          (not in OED)  1912 [B page 79]
parnas           (OED 1831)    1759 [C vol I page 119]
perfect year     (not in OED)  1833 [OED under "Hesvan"]
potato pancake   (OED 1936)    1903 [A page 34]
Rosh Hashanah    (OED 186)     1766 [D vol X page 55]
Rosh Hodesh      (OED 1879)    1843 [H]
Shavuot          (OED 1892)    1843 [H]
Shemini Atzereth (not in OED)  1868 [I page 42]
shochet          (OED 1841)    1825 [G page 525]
Shofar           (OED 1833)    1793 [G page 657]
shul             (OED 1874)    1771 [C vol II page 58]
Simchat Torah    (OED 1891)    1843 [H]
Sukkot           (OED 1892)    1843 [H]
Tishah b'Av      (OED 1936)    1874 [J page 61]
ultra-Orthodox   (not in OED)  1849 [K, January 1849]
Veadar           (not in OED)  1758 [C vol I page 83f]
yad              (not in OED)  1771 [C vol II page 58]
yeshiva          (OED 1851)    1760 [C vol I page 85]
Yom Kippur       (OED 1854)    1735 [C vol I page 111],
                               1846 [OED under "Rosh Hashanah"]

The above list is hardly the final word.  For example, there exists a Hebrew
calendar, published in Newport, Rhode Island in 1806 by one Moses Lopez.  At
least one copy of this calendar is extant, at the American Jewish Archives in
Cincinnati.  Someone who can examine a copy of this calendar will probably
have a dozen antedatings of the above list.

           James A. Landau
           systems engineer
           FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI)
           Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA


        feetnotes

A. Kander _Settlement Cook Book 2nd edition_ 1903
B. Kander _Settlement Cook Book 6th edition_ 1912
C. Jacob Rader Marcus _Early American Jewry_
D. Jewish Encyclopedia, 1901-1905
E. Jeffrey S. Gurock, ed _American Jewish History_ vol I
F. Encyclopedia Britannica, 1st Edition, 1771
G. Blau and Baron, ed. _The Jews of the United States 1790-1840_
H. Jewish calendar in "The Occident" September 1843
I. E. Eppstein _Confirmant's Guide to the Mosaic Religion_
J. Vorspan and Gartner _History of the Jews of Los Angeles_
K. The Occident (magazine edited by Isaac Leeser, first published 1843)


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Dec 27 04:08:13 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 23:08:13 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <000701c2ad42$fa51b220$c9a35d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.230813.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... RHHDAS attributes it to [<Yid- tsu visn fun gornisht 'to be ignorant']
>and cites it from
>1934(although Barry cited it earlier from 1933 at Temple U.)

I think this is roughly equivalent to my casual notion. The Yiddish phrase
here corresponds to (in standard German orthography) "zu wissen von gar
nichts", = "to know from/about absolutely nothing" (according to my
primitive understanding). But "know from" has wider application than just
"know from nothing" = "know [about] nothing". You can say "He knows from
horses" or "He doesn't know from horses", roughly "He knows [about]
horses", "He doesn't know [about] horses" respectively, I think. The German
(or Yiddish) word "von" has been 'glossed'/'translated' "from" whereas in
this context "about" might be more appropriate.

-- Doug Wilson


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Dec 27 09:01:51 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 02:01:51 -0700
Subject: know from
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.020151.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am familiar with the locution from at least the 40s, in South Texas,
almost always used somewhat jocularly in the deliberately informal "-g
dropping" pronunciation of "nothing" in the fixed phrase: "He don't know
from nothin'". The only likelihood of Yiddish influence in South Texas
would be via radio programs (Fibber McGee & Molly, Jack Benny, etc.) The
collocation can be a condensation of "He doesn't know X from Y" (X =
anything, Y = a hole in the ground, etc.).

        Rudy


From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU  Fri Dec 27 13:54:30 2002
From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 08:54:30 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <p04320402ba311f558a0f@[130.132.166.208]>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.085430.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I certainly associate the construction 'know from' as being a New
York Jewish  construction. It has certainly spread beyond New York
and beyond Jewish usage, but frequently when I hear it now, it is an
attempt to sound like a New Yorker or as a Jewish New Yorker.

I've also found the construction more common among people who
originate in Queens and Brooklyn than elsewhere.

The Oxford Guide to World English also cites it as as a Yiddish
construction (p. 198):

      They don't know from nothing ('They really don't know anything')


Philip Trauring


From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST  Fri Dec 27 14:27:27 2002
From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 15:27:27 +0100
Subject: know from
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.152727.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is no need to presume an influence from Yiddish - it can very well come directly from German. Warig's Deutsches Wörterbuch says under "wissen" e.g. "davon weiss ich nichts", "er tut, als wüsste er von nichts", etc.
Jan Ivarsson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Trauring" <philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ADS-L] know from


> I certainly associate the construction 'know from' as being a New
> York Jewish  construction. It has certainly spread beyond New York
> and beyond Jewish usage, but frequently when I hear it now, it is an
> attempt to sound like a New Yorker or as a Jewish New Yorker.
>
> I've also found the construction more common among people who
> originate in Queens and Brooklyn than elsewhere.
>
> The Oxford Guide to World English also cites it as as a Yiddish
> construction (p. 198):
>
>       They don't know from nothing ('They really don't know anything')
>
>
> Philip Trauring
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 27 16:35:14 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:35:14 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212270155160.3588-100000@bast.u.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.113514.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:01 AM -0700 12/27/02, Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>I am familiar with the locution from at least the 40s, in South Texas,
>almost always used somewhat jocularly in the deliberately informal "-g
>dropping" pronunciation of "nothing" in the fixed phrase: "He don't know
>from nothin'". The only likelihood of Yiddish influence in South Texas
>would be via radio programs (Fibber McGee & Molly, Jack Benny, etc.) The
>collocation can be a condensation of "He doesn't know X from Y" (X =
>anything, Y = a hole in the ground, etc.).
>
Two problems with this:
1) You'd expect "know from" to be a negative polarity item like "know
X from Y", but it's not.
2) You'd expect "know from" to show up in areas without direct
Yiddish/German influence, since the negative polarity "know X from Y"
is not regionally restricted, but it doesn't.
3) You'd expect "He doesn't know from a hole in the ground" (or what
I assume is the unexpurgated version, "He doesn't know from a hole in
his ass")  to represent the original version, and I suspect this
doesn't occur at all.  These expressions (cf. also "He doesn't know
shit from shinola") allude to imperfections in the referent's powers
of discernment, not in his or her general knowledge about a
particular entity or field.  "know from" in the sense of 'know about'
is quite different.

I'm prepared to agree that the source may well be German and/or
Yiddish "von" translated as 'from' rather than the more appropriate
'about', and that "doesn't know from nothing" may have been a crucial
step on the way, but I don't think "He doesn't know X from Y" was
involved.

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 27 16:35:58 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:35:58 -0500
Subject: oops
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.113558.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Re last message:

I must have meant three problems.  I don't know from numbers.

L


From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM  Fri Dec 27 17:20:51 2002
From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 12:20:51 -0500
Subject: Neology contests
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.122051.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Washington Post has been running a monthly neology contest for a
remarkable 20 years. Barbara Wallraff has her monthly "Word Fugitives"
column for The Atlantic Monthly. The Globe and Mail also has its weekly
"Challenge" contest which is quasi-neological. CBC Radio used to run a
weekly "Wanted Words" contest. Does anyone know of any other neology
contests that run regularly or semi-regularly in newspapers, magazines, Web
sites, or on the radio?

Thanks.

Paul


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 27 18:08:05 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 13:08:05 EST
Subject: know from
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.130805.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/27/02 11:33:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

> You'd expect "He doesn't know from a hole in the ground" (or what
>  I assume is the unexpurgated version, "He doesn't know from a hole in
>  his ass")  to represent the original version, and I suspect this
>  doesn't occur at all.  These expressions (cf. also "He doesn't know
>  shit from shinola") allude to imperfections in the referent's powers
>  of discernment,

The original expression was "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the
ground".  I don't know of any variants.  Why these two items are juxtsposed
is less than obvious---I would guess the originator had a scatalogical image
of a man's anus and the hole in the ground he is defecating into.

An Annapolis midshipman once wrote "Sancho Panza, sitting on his burrow..."
The instructor wrote back "a burro is an ass.  A burrow is a hole in the
ground.  As a future Naval officer, you are expected to know the difference."

"shit from shinola" is an interesting expression, since the name "Shinola" (a
brand of shoe polish, well known in the mid-20th Century but no longer on the
market) is sometimes used as a euphemism for "shit".   Interpreted literally,
the person in question is unable to distinguish between a four-letter word
and its euphemism.  More plausibly, I suspect the expression "shit from
shinola" originated purely from the phonetic similarity between the two words.

       - Jim Landau

PS.  It is interesting to note that the suffix -ola, used in "Shinola",
"Motorola", "pianola", and "payola" (the last dated by MWCD10 as 1938) no
longer seems to be productive.  Does anyone have an idea why, or did that
particular suffix just fall out of fashion?

(One should not forget that it was the gunboat Indianola that was destroyed
by the USS Deluded People Cave In.)


From Friolly at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 27 18:27:32 2002
From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 13:27:32 EST
Subject: know from/Texas
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.132732.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Do we have to attribute this locution in south texas to Yiddish influence?
there were large numbers of Germans who immigrated to Texas (There is even an
impressive "Linguistic Atlas of Texas German").  Where is New Braunfels in
relation to where you are from?
Fritz

> I am familiar with the locution from at least the 40s, in South Texas,
> almost always used somewhat jocularly in the deliberately informal "-g
> dropping" pronunciation of "nothing" in the fixed phrase: "He don't know
> from nothin'". The only likelihood of Yiddish influence in South Texas
> would be via radio programs (Fibber McGee & Molly, Jack Benny, etc.) The
> collocation can be a condensation of "He doesn't know X from Y" (X =
> anything, Y = a hole in the ground, etc.).
>
>         Rudy


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 27 18:41:21 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 13:41:21 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <32.31f0fa50.2b3df105@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.134121.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:08 PM -0500 12/27/02, James A. Landau wrote:
>In a message dated 12/27/02 11:33:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
>  > You'd expect "He doesn't know from a hole in the ground" (or what
>>   I assume is the unexpurgated version, "He doesn't know from a hole in
>>   his ass")  to represent the original version, and I suspect this
>>   doesn't occur at all.  These expressions (cf. also "He doesn't know
>>   shit from shinola") allude to imperfections in the referent's powers
>>   of discernment,
>
>The original expression was "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the
>ground".  I don't know of any variants.

Actually, there is one (euphemistic) variant that I must have had in
the back of my mind when I was (mis)writing earlier: "doesn't know
his ass from his elbow".  I was thinking of the "doesn't know his ass
from a hole in the ground", though.  Sorry for the confusion.  (I
wonder why "elbow" was chosen for the euphemism--as a non-hole, it
seems as though an elbow would be a lot easier to distinguish from an
ass, or a hole in the ground.)


>Why these two items are juxtsposed
>is less than obvious---I would guess the originator had a scatalogical image
>of a man's anus and the hole in the ground he is defecating into.

I think it's just two holes that one should be capable of distinguishing.

>"shit from shinola" is an interesting expression, since the name "Shinola" (a
>brand of shoe polish, well known in the mid-20th Century but no longer on the
>market) is sometimes used as a euphemism for "shit".   Interpreted literally,
>the person in question is unable to distinguish between a four-letter word
>and its euphemism.  More plausibly, I suspect the expression "shit from
>shinola" originated purely from the phonetic similarity between the two words.
>

I'd guess that both factors are involved:  the color (typically
brown) and consistency of the product and the initial consonant.

>PS.  It is interesting to note that the suffix -ola, used in "Shinola",
>"Motorola", "pianola", and "payola" (the last dated by MWCD10 as 1938) no
>longer seems to be productive.  Does anyone have an idea why, or did that
>particular suffix just fall out of fashion?
>
>(One should not forget that it was the gunboat Indianola that was destroyed
>by the USS Deluded People Cave In.)

Could it be the payola scandals of the 50's?  I agree that "-ola"
does sound strangely quaint.

Larry


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Dec 27 18:53:24 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 13:53:24 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <32.31f0fa50.2b3df105@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.135324.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:08 PM 12/27/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 12/27/02 11:33:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
> > You'd expect "He doesn't know from a hole in the ground" (or what
> >  I assume is the unexpurgated version, "He doesn't know from a hole in
> >  his ass")  to represent the original version, and I suspect this
> >  doesn't occur at all.  These expressions (cf. also "He doesn't know
> >  shit from shinola") allude to imperfections in the referent's powers
> >  of discernment,
>
>The original expression was "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the
>ground".  I don't know of any variants.  Why these two items are juxtaposed
>is less than obvious---I would guess the originator had a scatalogical image
>of a man's anus and the hole in the ground he is defecating into.

My father used "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground"
frequently (born 1900 in rural Minnesota, of Norwegian- and Swedish-born
parents).  Believe me, there wasn't any Yiddish influence in that
area!  However, German immigrants were co-existent in the area.  I always
wondered where he got that expression; as a kid, I just assumed he was so
clever (and generally scatological in his talk) that he made this, and
others, up!


From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU  Fri Dec 27 20:03:10 2002
From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 15:03:10 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021227134816.020bdee0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.150310.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think there are two different constructions here. One is 'know
from' and the  other is 'know X from Y'.

Examples such as 'he doesn't know his ass from his elbow' are also
idioms, whose constructions I would argue are not easily tracked and
frequently flaunt normal grammatical rules. Does anyone have an
example of this 'know X from Y' construction that isn't an insult?

I'm not convinced the two constructions have the same origin.

A typical NY Jewish construction might be self-depreciating - such as
'I don't know from that'. I don't think I've ever heard someone say
'I don't know my ass from my elbow'. :-)

Philip

At 1:53 PM -0500 12/27/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>At 01:08 PM 12/27/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 12/27/02 11:33:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>>
>>>  You'd expect "He doesn't know from a hole in the ground" (or what
>>>   I assume is the unexpurgated version, "He doesn't know from a hole in
>>>   his ass")  to represent the original version, and I suspect this
>>>   doesn't occur at all.  These expressions (cf. also "He doesn't know
>>>   shit from shinola") allude to imperfections in the referent's powers
>>>   of discernment,
>>
>>The original expression was "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the
>>ground".  I don't know of any variants.  Why these two items are juxtaposed
>>is less than obvious---I would guess the originator had a scatalogical image
>>of a man's anus and the hole in the ground he is defecating into.
>
>My father used "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground"
>frequently (born 1900 in rural Minnesota, of Norwegian- and Swedish-born
>parents).  Believe me, there wasn't any Yiddish influence in that
>area!  However, German immigrants were co-existent in the area.  I always
>wondered where he got that expression; as a kid, I just assumed he was so
>clever (and generally scatological in his talk) that he made this, and
>others, up!


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 27 20:35:12 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 15:35:12 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <p05200f00ba3255678ec8@[192.168.0.1]>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.153512.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:03 PM -0500 12/27/02, Philip Trauring wrote:
>I think there are two different constructions here. One is 'know
>from' and the  other is 'know X from Y'.

Precisely.

>
>Examples such as 'he doesn't know his ass from his elbow' are also
>idioms, whose constructions I would argue are not easily tracked and
>frequently flaunt normal grammatical rules. Does anyone have an
>example of this 'know X from Y' construction that isn't an insult?

Well, the positive counterparts would represent such cases (albeit
ones occurring only in a context in which there's some reason to
suspect that the subject did NOT have the powers of discernment
referred to).  A related example involving not "doesn't know Y from
Z" but the related "can't tell Y from Z" is (if I'm not mistaken,
courtesy of Hamlet) "I can tell a hawk from a handsaw."  I would
submit that it's even possible to get "I know my ass from a hole in
the ground", and there are several such examples available on google.
These are not insults, but defenses against (actual or implied)
insults.

Note that the possibility of getting "X can't tell Y from Z"
alongside "X doesn't know Y from Z" makes it less likely that we can
simply call the latter (or the former) an unanalyzable idiom.
There's also "X can't tell Y and Z apart", again more likely in
negative contexts, and related constructions like "How do/can you
tell Y and Z apart?" or "How can you tell Y from Z?"  No, not "How
do/can you tell your ass from a hole in the ground?" but "How do you
tell a finch from a cardinal?" or "How do you tell a restrictive
relative clause from a non-restrictive one?"  Now, I agree that it's
harder to get these with "know from" than with "tell from", but the
claim that the former is an idiom and thus non-compositional seems a
bit too strong.

>
>I'm not convinced the two constructions ["know Y from Z", "know from
>Z"] have the same origin.

As argued earlier, they pretty clearly don't.

Larry


From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU  Fri Dec 27 20:57:54 2002
From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 15:57:54 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <p0432040aba3266bbe965@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.155754.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>I'm not convinced the two constructions ["know Y from Z", "know from
>>Z"] have the same origin.
>
>As argued earlier, they pretty clearly don't.
>
>Larry

Oops. I meant to say that I was convinced they DO NOT have the same
origin. I don't know from typing.

Philip


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec 27 23:04:05 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 18:04:05 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <p05200f00ba3255678ec8@[192.168.0.1]>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.180405.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 27 Dec 2002, Philip Trauring wrote:

#I think there are two different constructions here. One is 'know
#from' and the  other is 'know X from Y'.

I agree.

#Examples such as 'he doesn't know his ass from his elbow' are also
#idioms, whose constructions I would argue are not easily tracked and
#frequently flaunt normal grammatical rules. Does anyone have an
#example of this 'know X from Y' construction that isn't an insult?

This is made-up but imho plausible, and deprecatory but not just an
insult, but rather contentful:

        You can't hire her as our webmaster! Why, she doesn't
        know Java from Javascript!

(Neither do I, but I'm not applying for a job that requires it.)

So I don't think 'know X from Y' is an idiom. It's a construction
meaning 'know / recognize / understand the difference between X and Y'.
"Doesn't know shit from shinola" / "his ass from a hole in the ground"
are idioms built on literal, grammatically correct uses of the
construction.

"Know from X" is a different breed of equine entirely.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM  Fri Dec 27 23:14:45 2002
From: TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM (Joyce, Thomas F.)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 17:14:45 -0600
Subject: Dumb clock defence
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.171445.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Maybe it's related to the observation that even a broken clock is right twice each day.


TFJ


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From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Dec 28 02:47:36 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 21:47:36 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <p04320408ba324da90594@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.214736.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Actually, there is one (euphemistic) variant that I must have had in
>the back of my mind when I was (mis)writing earlier: "doesn't know
>his ass from his elbow".  I was thinking of the "doesn't know his ass
>from a hole in the ground", though.  Sorry for the confusion.  (I
>wonder why "elbow" was chosen for the euphemism--as a non-hole, it
>seems as though an elbow would be a lot easier to distinguish from an
>ass, or a hole in the ground.)

The alternative to "ass" is not necessarily a euphemism IMHO. In my
experience it can be almost anything. I remember for example "doesn't know
his ass from page eight" from my school days, the sense [if any] of "p. 8"
entirely opaque to me. Similarly, with similar sense, "couldn't find his
ass with both hands/with a flashlight/with a roadmap/etc." The idea is to
include the rude "ass" somehow, for force/machismo.

"Ass from elbow" I believe is favored by alliteration. There is a
comparable expression "asses [or assholes} and elbows" referring to
dedicated labor: "You swabbies get busy scrubbing that deck; when I come
back, I don't want to see nothing but assholes and elbows!" ... i.e., "I
don't want to see anybody walking around smoking; I want to see everybody
on hands and knees scrubbing" [buttocks and elbows prominent from the rear
view, but "ass(hole)" favored by a desire for rudeness].

-- Doug Wilson


From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Sat Dec 28 13:57:25 2002
From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 08:57:25 -0500
Subject: FWD: inquiry
In-Reply-To: <000801c2ae01$c2bbc0c0$b3d44240@D2CWCL01>
Message-ID: <SAT.28.DEC.2002.085725.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Any thoughts on this request?  Send them to Joe (or the list).


Quoting Joe <pagejoe at wizwire.com>:

> Hello Terry Irons: I came across your name while playing around with my
> laptop in search of the origin of the euphemism "senior citizen." I'm
> told it was coined by an ad man in the '50s or '60s who didn't want to
> call people "old." I'm still unable to check it out. Any help will be
> welcomed with this old guy's open arms. Thanks, Joe Carroll
>



**************************
Terry Lynn Irons


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Dec 28 14:36:36 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 09:36:36 -0500
Subject: Is the old trick the source, or does life imitate language?
In-Reply-To: <32.31f0fa50.2b3df105@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.28.DEC.2002.093636.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does the expression precede or come from the trick? In the trick, as
we played it long ago, the unwary was told that he or she did not
know his or her ass from a hole in the ground. When they protested,
the trickster (ah, we were such clever wags then!) took a stick and
drew two circles in the ground. The first was pointed to, and the
trickster declared it to be "your ass-hole." The second was called "a
hole in the ground." The clever trickster then asked the unwary one
to point to  his or her ass-hole. When the correct drawing was
chosen, the trickster pointed to the duped's backside and declared
that his or her true ass-hole was located there, thus confirming the
original accusation.

dInIs



In a message dated 12/27/02 11:33:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

>  You'd expect "He doesn't know from a hole in the ground" (or what
>   I assume is the unexpurgated version, "He doesn't know from a hole in
>   his ass")  to represent the original version, and I suspect this
>   doesn't occur at all.  These expressions (cf. also "He doesn't know
>   shit from shinola") allude to imperfections in the referent's powers
>   of discernment,

The original expression was "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the
ground".  I don't know of any variants.  Why these two items are juxtsposed
is less than obvious---I would guess the originator had a scatalogical image
of a man's anus and the hole in the ground he is defecating into.

An Annapolis midshipman once wrote "Sancho Panza, sitting on his burrow..."
The instructor wrote back "a burro is an ass.  A burrow is a hole in the
ground.  As a future Naval officer, you are expected to know the difference."

"shit from shinola" is an interesting expression, since the name "Shinola" (a
brand of shoe polish, well known in the mid-20th Century but no longer on the
market) is sometimes used as a euphemism for "shit".   Interpreted literally,
the person in question is unable to distinguish between a four-letter word
and its euphemism.  More plausibly, I suspect the expression "shit from
shinola" originated purely from the phonetic similarity between the two words.

        - Jim Landau

PS.  It is interesting to note that the suffix -ola, used in "Shinola",
"Motorola", "pianola", and "payola" (the last dated by MWCD10 as 1938) no
longer seems to be productive.  Does anyone have an idea why, or did that
particular suffix just fall out of fashion?

(One should not forget that it was the gunboat Indianola that was destroyed
by the USS Deluded People Cave In.)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 28 15:30:33 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 10:30:33 -0500
Subject: Balloonatics, Wuzabeasts and more from Kenya
Message-ID: <SAT.28.DEC.2002.103033.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Kenya.  Two more weeks of the darn animals and no internet.  I'm going to go nuts.  We sit in a bus, drive around all day, and I'm five minutes away from eating again.
   The Kenyan election is over and the votes are being counted.  Hopefully, they'll have no "hanging Chads" or "swinging Tanzanias."

CHILE CON CARNE--The citation I provided is probably closer to "carne con chile."

BALLOONATICS--Fans of balloon safaris, or ballooning.

WUZABEAST--Dead wildebeasts or other animals, not identifiable.

WILDEBUS--A tourist bus, one of about 20 that surround that poor leopard up in the tree.

NO HOOTING--No Honking.

PRONKING--Animal's jumping.

MANDAZI--Up-country name for the donut.
MAHAMRI--coastal (Muslim) name for the donut.

LOBSTER "BWANA T"
PRAWNS PIRI PIRI--Seen on a local menu at the Verandah Garden Restaurant.  Is "piri piri" in the works for OED?

SAFARI--I was told that the Thompson gazelle was named after Thompson, who gave us the first safari.  I haven't checked.


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Sat Dec 28 18:48:34 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 13:48:34 -0500
Subject: FWD: inquiry
In-Reply-To: <1041083845.3e0dadc58b2a0@ldap.morehead-st.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.28.DEC.2002.134834.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My memory is that the phrase was coined by Hubert Humphrey when he was
promoting welfare reform in the late '50s and early '60s--probably when he
was running for President in 1960.  At least we loyal Minnesota DFLers gave
him credit for it in the good old days before Vietnam.  He also conceived
of the Peace Corps, which Kennedy then appropriated when he beat out
Humphrey in the primaries (I remember, sadly, the day he lost West Virginia).

At 08:57 AM 12/28/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Any thoughts on this request?  Send them to Joe (or the list).
>
>
>Quoting Joe <pagejoe at wizwire.com>:
>
> > Hello Terry Irons: I came across your name while playing around with my
> > laptop in search of the origin of the euphemism "senior citizen." I'm
> > told it was coined by an ad man in the '50s or '60s who didn't want to
> > call people "old." I'm still unable to check it out. Any help will be
> > welcomed with this old guy's open arms. Thanks, Joe Carroll
> >
>
>
>
>**************************
>Terry Lynn Irons


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Sat Dec 28 18:53:04 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 13:53:04 -0500
Subject: Is the old trick the source, or does life imitate language?
In-Reply-To: <a05010402ba3366147f02@[35.12.22.197]>
Message-ID: <SAT.28.DEC.2002.135304.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wow, what clever kids!  But my father used the phrase totally seriously, as
the ultimate slander, long before you and I were born.  So, here's one for
Barry Popik to research.

At 09:36 AM 12/28/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Does the expression precede or come from the trick? In the trick, as
>we played it long ago, the unwary was told that he or she did not
>know his or her ass from a hole in the ground. When they protested,
>the trickster (ah, we were such clever wags then!) took a stick and
>drew two circles in the ground. The first was pointed to, and the
>trickster declared it to be "your ass-hole." The second was called "a
>hole in the ground." The clever trickster then asked the unwary one
>to point to  his or her ass-hole. When the correct drawing was
>chosen, the trickster pointed to the duped's backside and declared
>that his or her true ass-hole was located there, thus confirming the
>original accusation.
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
>In a message dated 12/27/02 11:33:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
>>  You'd expect "He doesn't know from a hole in the ground" (or what
>>   I assume is the unexpurgated version, "He doesn't know from a hole in
>>   his ass")  to represent the original version, and I suspect this
>>   doesn't occur at all.  These expressions (cf. also "He doesn't know
>>   shit from shinola") allude to imperfections in the referent's powers
>>   of discernment,
>
>The original expression was "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the
>ground".  I don't know of any variants.  Why these two items are juxtsposed
>is less than obvious---I would guess the originator had a scatalogical image
>of a man's anus and the hole in the ground he is defecating into.
>
>An Annapolis midshipman once wrote "Sancho Panza, sitting on his burrow..."
>The instructor wrote back "a burro is an ass.  A burrow is a hole in the
>ground.  As a future Naval officer, you are expected to know the difference."
>
>"shit from shinola" is an interesting expression, since the name "Shinola" (a
>brand of shoe polish, well known in the mid-20th Century but no longer on the
>market) is sometimes used as a euphemism for "shit".   Interpreted literally,
>the person in question is unable to distinguish between a four-letter word
>and its euphemism.  More plausibly, I suspect the expression "shit from
>shinola" originated purely from the phonetic similarity between the two words.
>
>        - Jim Landau
>
>PS.  It is interesting to note that the suffix -ola, used in "Shinola",
>"Motorola", "pianola", and "payola" (the last dated by MWCD10 as 1938) no
>longer seems to be productive.  Does anyone have an idea why, or did that
>particular suffix just fall out of fashion?
>
>(One should not forget that it was the gunboat Indianola that was destroyed
>by the USS Deluded People Cave In.)
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>740 Wells Hall A
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>Office - (517) 353-0740
>Fax - (517) 432-2736


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sat Dec 28 22:39:54 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 17:39:54 -0500
Subject: WOTY Nomination: Captcha
Message-ID: <SAT.28.DEC.2002.173954.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This WOTY nomination is a late entry, coming into common usage only
recently: captcha. A captcha distinguishes a human from a machine.
Usually these devices are used to prevent repeated automated logins to
web sites, such as free email services, which might be abused by
spammers or others of ill intent.

One mention:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/28694.html

The word is supposedly an acronym for Completely Automated Public
Turing tests to tell Computers and Humans Apart).


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Dec 29 20:04:39 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:04:39 -0500
Subject: FWD: inquiry
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.150439.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        It's a little old for Humphrey.  The OED has 1938:  "Time 24 Oct. 12/2 Mr. Downey had an inspiration to do something on behalf of what he calls, for campaign purposes, 'our senior citizens'."  I have no idea who Mr. Downey was.  The State of Washington passed a Senior Citizens Grants Act by ballot initiative in 1941.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Beverly Flanigan [mailto:flanigan at OHIOU.EDU]
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 1:49 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: FWD: inquiry


My memory is that the phrase was coined by Hubert Humphrey when he was
promoting welfare reform in the late '50s and early '60s--probably when he
was running for President in 1960.  At least we loyal Minnesota DFLers gave
him credit for it in the good old days before Vietnam.  He also conceived
of the Peace Corps, which Kennedy then appropriated when he beat out
Humphrey in the primaries (I remember, sadly, the day he lost West Virginia).

At 08:57 AM 12/28/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Any thoughts on this request?  Send them to Joe (or the list).
>
>
>Quoting Joe <pagejoe at wizwire.com>:
>
> > Hello Terry Irons: I came across your name while playing around with my
> > laptop in search of the origin of the euphemism "senior citizen." I'm
> > told it was coined by an ad man in the '50s or '60s who didn't want to
> > call people "old." I'm still unable to check it out. Any help will be
> > welcomed with this old guy's open arms. Thanks, Joe Carroll
> >
>
>
>
>**************************
>Terry Lynn Irons


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Dec 29 21:00:55 2002
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:00:55 -0500
Subject: FWD: inquiry
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.160055.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is a "Mr. Downey" D-CA, mentioned in relationship to Social Security
in 1939, at http://www.ssa.gov/history/reports/crsleghist3.html.  Seems
likely.

Sam Clements
----- Original Message -----
From: "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: FWD: inquiry


>         It's a little old for Humphrey.  The OED has 1938:  "Time 24 Oct.
12/2 Mr. Downey had an inspiration to do something on behalf of what he
calls, for campaign purposes, 'our senior citizens'."  I have no idea who
Mr. Downey was.  The State of Washington passed a Senior Citizens Grants Act
by ballot initiative in 1941.
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Beverly Flanigan [mailto:flanigan at OHIOU.EDU]
> Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 1:49 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: FWD: inquiry
>
>
> My memory is that the phrase was coined by Hubert Humphrey when he was
> promoting welfare reform in the late '50s and early '60s--probably when he
> was running for President in 1960.  At least we loyal Minnesota DFLers
gave
> him credit for it in the good old days before Vietnam.  He also conceived
> of the Peace Corps, which Kennedy then appropriated when he beat out
> Humphrey in the primaries (I remember, sadly, the day he lost West
Virginia).
>
> At 08:57 AM 12/28/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >Any thoughts on this request?  Send them to Joe (or the list).
> >
> >
> >Quoting Joe <pagejoe at wizwire.com>:
> >
> > > Hello Terry Irons: I came across your name while playing around with
my
> > > laptop in search of the origin of the euphemism "senior citizen." I'm
> > > told it was coined by an ad man in the '50s or '60s who didn't want to
> > > call people "old." I'm still unable to check it out. Any help will be
> > > welcomed with this old guy's open arms. Thanks, Joe Carroll
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >**************************
> >Terry Lynn Irons
>


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Dec 29 22:47:22 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:47:22 -0800
Subject: Commoditized?
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.144722.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In an article in today's (Sunday) SF Chronicle on the economic
problems facing Union Square, the discussion is on balancing familiar
chain stores (e.g. Crate & Barrel or William Sonoma) found in
suburban malls with upscale, more prestigious establishments.

There is the quote: "We have to be very, very careful how much we let
Union Square get commoditized.  Union Square is getting to the status
of being the last holdout, with retail being so commoditized...."

I hadn't heard it before.

Rima


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Dec 29 23:17:10 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:17:10 -0500
Subject: Commoditized?
In-Reply-To: <a05200f00ba352add2820@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.181710.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Rima writes:
>There is the quote: "We have to be very, very careful how much we let
>Union Square get commoditized.  Union Square is getting to the status
>of being the last holdout, with retail being so commoditized...."
>
>I hadn't heard it before.
 ~~~~~~~
Is it useful?  Does it say something that "commodify" & "commodification"
which have been around for a while, don't already say?
A. Murie


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Dec 30 00:09:12 2002
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 19:09:12 -0500
Subject: WASP
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.190912.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M-W cites from 1957.  I know all about the 1962/64 cites from
Palmore/Baltzell.  What I want is the cite from 1957.  Any help?  Or should
I just write to M-W.  They've always replied before.  I just wanted a faster
answer.

Sam Clements

I think I checked the archive, but found nothing.


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Dec 30 00:14:55 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:14:55 -0800
Subject: Commoditized?
In-Reply-To: <l03130300ba35321641c0@[12.107.140.65]>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.161455.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Is it useful?  Does it say something that "commodify" & "commodification"
>which have been around for a while, don't already say?

Not to me.

Rima


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 30 01:33:52 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 20:33:52 -0500
Subject: WASP
In-Reply-To: <000501c2af97$afc15240$c9a35d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.203352.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 29 Dec 2002, Sam Clements wrote:

> M-W cites from 1957.  I know all about the 1962/64 cites from
> Palmore/Baltzell.  What I want is the cite from 1957.  Any help?  Or
> should I just write to M-W.  They've always replied before.  I just
> wanted a faster answer.

This is probably the 1957 citation I discovered and reported in an article
in American Speech some years ago:

1957 Andrew M. Hacker in _Amer. Polit. Sci. Rev._ LI. 1011
They are "WASPs" -- in the cocktail party jargon of the sociologists.
That is, they are white, they are Anglo-Saxon in origin, and they are
Protestant.

This may well be the earliest appearance in print of the term.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From dave at WILTON.NET  Mon Dec 30 02:15:25 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:15:25 -0800
Subject: Commoditized?
In-Reply-To: <l03130300ba35321641c0@[12.107.140.65]>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.181525.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>:

>  Rima writes:
> >There is the quote: "We have to be very, very careful how much we let
> >Union Square get commoditized.  Union Square is getting to the status
> >of being the last holdout, with retail being so commoditized...."
> >
> >I hadn't heard it before.
>  ~~~~~~~
> Is it useful?  Does it say something that "commodify" & "commodification"
> which have been around for a while, don't already say?
> A. Murie

"Commoditize" has been around for a while--I first noticed it about five years
ago; which means its probably older than that. It means the same
as "commodify."

I've never heard "commodify" used in the wild (i.e., among business and
marketing people). In my experience it has always been "commoditize." I had to
look up "commodify" to make sure it didn't mean to "modify together." By not
shifting the T to an F "commoditize" is clearer and the meaning is instantly
recognizable to those who are unfamiliar with the word.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Dec 30 03:44:15 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 22:44:15 -0500
Subject: Commoditized?
In-Reply-To: <1041214525.3e0fac3d84e14@webmail.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.224415.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Dave Wilton writes:
>"Commoditize" has been around for a while--I first noticed it about five years
>ago; which means its probably older than that. It means the same
>as "commodify."
>
>I've never heard "commodify" used in the wild (i.e., among business and
>marketing people). In my experience it has always been "commoditize." I had to
>look up "commodify" to make sure it didn't mean to "modify together." By not
>shifting the T to an F "commoditize" is clearer and the meaning is instantly
>recognizable to those who are unfamiliar with the word.
>
~~~~~~
This suggests that it is used in a more technical sense.  "Commodify" I
think usually has a disparaging or deploring tone.  As in deprecating the
commodification of cultural values, &c.
A. Murie


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Mon Dec 30 04:31:39 2002
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:31:39 -0500
Subject: Probably not WOTY, but that's too bad
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.233139.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In an attempt to improve myself culturally, tonight I was watching Bruce
Willis in one of the iterations of Die Hard, this time on a broadcast
channel rather than a cable movie channel, and that required a great deal
of overdubbing, sometimes quite creative. Every few minutes one of the
characters would aggressively call another a "melon farmer." For those of
us who were sitting there drinking bad beer, eating chips, and watching
trashy movies, I have no doubt that "melon farmer" has become a permanent
addition to our vocabulary.

D


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 30 11:07:12 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 06:07:12 -0500
Subject: Point Five and more
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.060712.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Tanzania.  My message from yesterday didn't go through.  I have only four minutes.

POINT-FIVE--A child of mixed marriages, half-white and half-black.

HONEYMOONERS--A male and female animal seen together.

PSV--Public Service Vehicle.  In OED?

KANGA--Cloth for Kenyan dress.

IT IS AN OFFENCE TO OVERSPEED--Sign seen in Kenya.  Overspeed and not speed?

DON"T FEED OR ENCOURAGE THE MONKEYS--Another sign.  I got all the monkeys together, then told them they'd get no food and would never get into Yale.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Dec 30 15:09:06 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:09:06 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.100906.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just heard on NPR Androcles pronounced as an'drah kuh leez.  I
haven't consulted very many sources yet.  But, WM, AHD4, ACD, NCCN, and
RH do not show a variant to what I have always said... 'an druh kleez.
Where did the intrusive syllable come from...a typo?

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec 30 17:21:38 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:21:38 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <msg57541.thr-13ecbce.f555e@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.122138.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That kind of schwa insertion to break up a consonant cluster (in this case
[kl]) is common.  Cf. "athelete/atheletic."  I'd be curious to know who
said the word?

At 10:09 AM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>I just heard on NPR Androcles pronounced as an'drah kuh leez.  I
>haven't consulted very many sources yet.  But, WM, AHD4, ACD, NCCN, and
>RH do not show a variant to what I have always said... 'an druh kleez.
>Where did the intrusive syllable come from...a typo?
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>barnhart at highlands.com


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Dec 30 17:09:42 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:09:42 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.120942.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How would you characterize this on a scale of usage, stsndard or
substandard or informal or illiterate (a category I suggest for the
speech of people who are not familiar with the icons of educated folk
in a culture)?

Happy New Year and best wishes,
Dave

Barnhart at highlands.com


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Mon Dec 30 18:27:31 2002
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:27:31 -0800
Subject: ....the lion
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.102731.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David:


> I just heard on NPR Androcles pronounced as an'drah kuh leez.  I
> haven't consulted very many sources yet.  But, WM, AHD4, ACD, NCCN, and
> RH do not show a variant to what I have always said... 'an druh kleez.
> Where did the intrusive syllable come from...a typo?

INteresting.  It sounds as if the speaker "saw" an extra syllable and
pronounced it that way.  At least that's the way I "read" the situation.
Anne G


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Dec 30 18:51:18 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:51:18 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <002101c2b031$1e9ee0d0$dea1f5d1@annehpbrww9plk>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.135118.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote:

#> I just heard on NPR Androcles pronounced as an'drah kuh leez.  I
#> haven't consulted very many sources yet.  But, WM, AHD4, ACD, NCCN, and
#> RH do not show a variant to what I have always said... 'an druh kleez.
#> Where did the intrusive syllable come from...a typo?
#
#INteresting.

I "see" that comment with one eyebrow raised :-)   "..., captain."

          \ ,
        ^ o o ^

#  It sounds as if the speaker "saw" an extra syllable and pronounced
#it that way.  At least that's the way I "read" the situation.

Or "saw" the word with stress on the "oc" and then inserted a schwa by
their own (dialectal?) rule, bringing it away from (a non-epenthetic
pronunciation of) "Shockley" and towards "apocalypse" and "broccoli".

-- Mark A. Mandel


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Mon Dec 30 18:51:54 2002
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:51:54 -0600
Subject: "pretexting"
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.125154.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the Chicago Trib today (sec 1 p. 8 col. 2):

(The woman mentioned, Amy Boyer, was killed by a stalker who got her
SSN and work address through Docusearch. Her parents are suing
Docusearch for invasion of privacy, negligence, etc.)

Schulman, at the hearing, argued that none of the information
Docusearch provided was private. Docusearch had hired a woman who
called Boyer and her family to get her work address without revealing
why she was calling, a technique known as "pretexting."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 30 19:10:55 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:10:55 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <002101c2b031$1e9ee0d0$dea1f5d1@annehpbrww9plk>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.141055.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>David:
>
>
>>  I just heard on NPR Androcles pronounced as an'drah kuh leez.  I
>>  haven't consulted very many sources yet.  But, WM, AHD4, ACD, NCCN, and
>>  RH do not show a variant to what I have always said... 'an druh kleez.
>>  Where did the intrusive syllable come from...a typo?
>
>INteresting.  It sounds as if the speaker "saw" an extra syllable and
>pronounced it that way.  At least that's the way I "read" the situation.
>Anne G

Yes, that was my take on it too.  Alternatively, one might suspect an
attempt at a rhyme with "broccolis", perhaps for a limerick.

L


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 30 19:12:08 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:12:08 -0800
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <msg57541.thr-13ecbce.f555e@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.111208.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The only explanation has to be that this person had been involved in a
holiday limerick contest, the kind in which each person is given a rhyme
word for line 1 and has to supply the rest. So the word was obviously
"broccolis," and Androcoles was the match for line 5. Probably line 2 had
an aberration of Sophocles to go with the rest. Something like this, in
other words:

While tasting her holiday broccolis,
My wife was reminded of Sophocles--
Not laughin', not cryin',
Not sittin', but lyin' (lion),
Which should have engendered Androcoles.

Peter R.

On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Barnhart wrote:

> I just heard on NPR Androcles pronounced as an'drah kuh leez.  I
> haven't consulted very many sources yet.  But, WM, AHD4, ACD, NCCN, and
> RH do not show a variant to what I have always said... 'an druh kleez.
> Where did the intrusive syllable come from...a typo?


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec 30 19:14:06 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:14:06 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <msg57542.thr-8a92b846.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.141406.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Schwa insertion is very normal and generally unnoticed by speakers.  Some
may monitor themselves and "correct" the pronunciation in certain
circumstances, but pronunciation is usually so deeply ingrained it's not a
big deal to the speaker--if a hearer raises eyebrows (as Mark did) or
repeats the word, maybe the user would change it, but probably not.  That's
why I was wondering who used the form, and whether there was a pause or
other reaction on the part of the hearer.

It's most definitely not "substandard" or "illiterate"; it represents a
normal phonological process, much like its opposite, elision, as in
"s'pose" or "gonna."

At 12:09 PM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>How would you characterize this on a scale of usage, stsndard or
>substandard or informal or illiterate (a category I suggest for the
>speech of people who are not familiar with the icons of educated folk
>in a culture)?
>
>Happy New Year and best wishes,
>Dave
>
>Barnhart at highlands.com


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Dec 30 19:21:22 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:21:22 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021230110334.11695D-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.142122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Peter Richardson wrote:

#The only explanation has to be that this person had been involved in a
#holiday limerick contest, the kind in which each person is given a rhyme
#word for line 1 and has to supply the rest. So the word was obviously
#"broccolis," and Androcoles was the match for line 5. Probably line 2 had
#an aberration of Sophocles to go with the rest. Something like this, in
#other words:
#
#While tasting her holiday broccolis,
#My wife was reminded of Sophocles--
#Not laughin', not cryin',
#Not sittin', but lyin' (lion),
#Which should have engendered Androcoles.

<groan> -- In the past couple of weeks I have twice heard, on children's
radio programs, a song called "Broccoli and Chocolate" (both nouns
trisyllabic, and "chocolate" rhymed with "talk a lot").

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website

(Hmm, that's the wrong .sig for this list. Oh, well, I'll leave it in.)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec 30 19:16:05 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:16:05 -0500
Subject: "pretexting"
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.141605.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        "Pretexting," or "pretext calling," has been around for a few years.  Commissioner Mozelle Thompson of the Federal Trade Commission described it in 1998, in testimony available at http://www.ftc.gov/os/1998/9807/pretexttes.htm:

        >>"Pretexting" is a term coined by the private investigation industry, and refers to the practice of obtaining personal information under false pretenses. For example, an investigator who obtains a bank account balance by posing as the account holder would be engaged in pretexting.<<

        For an earlier cite, here's a story about a private investigation firm, from the L.A. Times on 10/9/88:

        >>Kroll employees sometimes do not identify themselves or their purpose in telephone calls. They are called "pretext calls," and there are no written guidelines for them. Kroll investigators simply say they are working for a consulting firm or doing business research. On rare occasions, they make up names for themselves and their employers, but they are not supposed to say that they work for another real company. Or a newspaper.<<

        Pretext calling to financial institutions was outlawed in 1999 by the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (which does not use the term).  As it happens, I do quite a bit of work with the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, particularly its privacy provisions.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Erin McKean [mailto:editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM]
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 1:52 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: "pretexting"


In the Chicago Trib today (sec 1 p. 8 col. 2):

(The woman mentioned, Amy Boyer, was killed by a stalker who got her
SSN and work address through Docusearch. Her parents are suing
Docusearch for invasion of privacy, negligence, etc.)

Schulman, at the hearing, argued that none of the information
Docusearch provided was private. Docusearch had hired a woman who
called Boyer and her family to get her work address without revealing
why she was calling, a technique known as "pretexting."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 30 19:43:18 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:43:18 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021230140645.01f22938@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.144318.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beverly writes:

>Schwa insertion is very normal and generally unnoticed by speakers.  Some
>may monitor themselves and "correct" the pronunciation in certain
>circumstances, but pronunciation is usually so deeply ingrained it's not a
>big deal to the speaker--if a hearer raises eyebrows (as Mark did) or
>repeats the word, maybe the user would change it, but probably not.  That's
>why I was wondering who used the form, and whether there was a pause or
>other reaction on the part of the hearer.
>
>It's most definitely not "substandard" or "illiterate"; it represents a
>normal phonological process, much like its opposite, elision, as in
>"s'pose" or "gonna."

Well, yes to all the above, BUT there's something more going on if
"Androcles" is pronounced so as to rhyme (as we've been saying) with
"broccolis".  There's also stress shift, suggesting that (unlike
schwa insertion in clusters like those in "fil[uh]m" or
"jewel[uh]ry", for example) this is in fact the result of someone
reading a word/name they've never actually heard pronounced rather
than a phonological process per se.

>
>At 12:09 PM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>How would you characterize this on a scale of usage, stsndard or
>>substandard or informal or illiterate (a category I suggest for the
>>speech of people who are not familiar with the icons of educated folk
>>in a culture)?
>>
>>Happy New Year and best wishes,
>>Dave
>>
>>Barnhart at highlands.com


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Dec 30 21:15:44 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:15:44 -0500
Subject: "far to"...specific spot?
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.161544.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

While the expression "far to the north (south, east, west)"  is normal and
familiar, "far to (specific spot)", which I ran across in a New England
writer today, looks very odd to me.  Is this a regionalism or
idiosyncratic?
A. Murie


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Dec 30 21:18:04 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:18:04 -0500
Subject: "pretexting"
In-Reply-To: <a0510034aba3645a63b5b@[172.30.5.73]>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.161804.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does pretexting differe substantially from "social engineering," or
would it merely be one of many items which might fit under that
umbrella classification?


--
Grant Barrett
Editor, World New York
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 30 21:24:52 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:24:52 -0800
Subject: Exploring Language
In-Reply-To: <2F406F1D-1C3C-11D7-AFDC-000A9567113C@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.132452.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've just received an examination copy of Gary Goshgarian's _Exploring
Language_, which seems like a fine collection of essays that could be put
into service in a lower-division general education course, perhaps an
inquiry seminar for first-year students. Does anyone out there have any
experience with this text, either as a stand-alone or a supplement to
others? Any advice or suggestions for use would be welcome.

Peter Richardson


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec 30 21:50:18 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:50:18 -0500
Subject: "pretexting"
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.165018.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        The contexts and goals are different.  "Social engineering," as I understand the term, is a hacking/cracking term describing ways to gain computer network access by assuming a fake identity over the telephone.  "Pretexting" is a term used by private investigators and regulators, and it refers to somewhat similar methods used, particularly by investigators, to gain information about individuals.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Grant Barrett [mailto:gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG]
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 4:18 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: "pretexting"


Does pretexting differe substantially from "social engineering," or
would it merely be one of many items which might fit under that
umbrella classification?


--
Grant Barrett
Editor, World New York
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec 30 22:31:55 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:31:55 -0500
Subject: Exploring Language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021230132021.11695I-100000@calvin.linfield. edu>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.173155.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is indeed a good book, either alone or accompanying a standard
linguistics intro. like Fromkin, Rodman, & Hyams or George Yule's nice
small book (the latter is better for beginners).  But another good reader
is Clark, Eschholz, & Rosa, _Language: Readings in Language and Culture_
(at least up to a 6th ed. by now); in fact, I prefer it over Goshgarian's.

At 01:24 PM 12/30/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>I've just received an examination copy of Gary Goshgarian's _Exploring
>Language_, which seems like a fine collection of essays that could be put
>into service in a lower-division general education course, perhaps an
>inquiry seminar for first-year students. Does anyone out there have any
>experience with this text, either as a stand-alone or a supplement to
>others? Any advice or suggestions for use would be welcome.
>
>Peter Richardson


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec 30 22:35:28 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:35:28 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <p0432040aba365148961a@[130.132.245.148]>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.173528.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Maybe I missed something:  Were the NPR people really talking rhymes or
games, or was the name used seriously??

At 02:43 PM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Beverly writes:
>
>>Schwa insertion is very normal and generally unnoticed by speakers.  Some
>>may monitor themselves and "correct" the pronunciation in certain
>>circumstances, but pronunciation is usually so deeply ingrained it's not a
>>big deal to the speaker--if a hearer raises eyebrows (as Mark did) or
>>repeats the word, maybe the user would change it, but probably not.  That's
>>why I was wondering who used the form, and whether there was a pause or
>>other reaction on the part of the hearer.
>>
>>It's most definitely not "substandard" or "illiterate"; it represents a
>>normal phonological process, much like its opposite, elision, as in
>>"s'pose" or "gonna."
>
>Well, yes to all the above, BUT there's something more going on if
>"Androcles" is pronounced so as to rhyme (as we've been saying) with
>"broccolis".  There's also stress shift, suggesting that (unlike
>schwa insertion in clusters like those in "fil[uh]m" or
>"jewel[uh]ry", for example) this is in fact the result of someone
>reading a word/name they've never actually heard pronounced rather
>than a phonological process per se.
>
>>
>>At 12:09 PM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>>How would you characterize this on a scale of usage, stsndard or
>>>substandard or informal or illiterate (a category I suggest for the
>>>speech of people who are not familiar with the icons of educated folk
>>>in a culture)?
>>>
>>>Happy New Year and best wishes,
>>>Dave
>>>
>>>Barnhart at highlands.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 30 23:31:46 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:31:46 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021230173445.01afbe40@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.183146.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:35 PM -0500 12/30/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Maybe I missed something:  Were the NPR people really talking rhymes or
>games, or was the name used seriously??

Hi, Beverly,

No, the idea of the limerick was from Peter Richardson and me
(independently, although he was the one who actually tried one out--I
had trouble coming up with a third rhyme); evidently the
"an-DROC-uh-leez" pronunciation was seriously uttered on NPR.  My
response here to you was that the schwa insertion may be
phonologically motivated but the stress shift indicates unfamiliarity
with the name.

Larry

>
>At 02:43 PM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>Beverly writes:
>>
>>>Schwa insertion is very normal and generally unnoticed by speakers.  Some
>>>may monitor themselves and "correct" the pronunciation in certain
>>>circumstances, but pronunciation is usually so deeply ingrained it's not a
>>>big deal to the speaker--if a hearer raises eyebrows (as Mark did) or
>>>repeats the word, maybe the user would change it, but probably not.  That's
>>>why I was wondering who used the form, and whether there was a pause or
>>>other reaction on the part of the hearer.
>>>
>>>It's most definitely not "substandard" or "illiterate"; it represents a
>>>normal phonological process, much like its opposite, elision, as in
>>>"s'pose" or "gonna."
>>
>>Well, yes to all the above, BUT there's something more going on if
>>"Androcles" is pronounced so as to rhyme (as we've been saying) with
>>"broccolis".  There's also stress shift, suggesting that (unlike
>>schwa insertion in clusters like those in "fil[uh]m" or
>>"jewel[uh]ry", for example) this is in fact the result of someone
>>reading a word/name they've never actually heard pronounced rather
>>than a phonological process per se.
>>


From self at TOWSE.COM  Mon Dec 30 23:31:59 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:31:59 -0800
Subject: ....the lion
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.153159.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> At 5:35 PM -0500 12/30/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> >Maybe I missed something:  Were the NPR people really talking rhymes or
> >games, or was the name used seriously??
>
> Hi, Beverly,
>
> No, the idea of the limerick was from Peter Richardson and me
> (independently, although he was the one who actually tried one out--I
> had trouble coming up with a third rhyme); evidently the
> "an-DROC-uh-leez" pronunciation was seriously uttered on NPR.  My
> response here to you was that the schwa insertion may be
> phonologically motivated but the stress shift indicates unfamiliarity
> with the name.

Unfamiliarity with the name and, perhaps, familiarity with
shopping at the California grocery store chain Andronico's?
"an-DRON-uh-coze" That's how this pronunciation strikes me.

Sal
--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Dec 31 03:17:05 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:17:05 -0800
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212301419250.105332840-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.191705.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>...and "chocolate" rhymed with "talk a lot").

Rhymed or scanned?

Rima, who, while eating her chocolate would not pron it with a
secondary stress, even with her mouth full.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Dec 31 06:21:17 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:21:17 -0800
Subject: Commoditized?
In-Reply-To: <l03130300ba356f949c3a@[12.107.140.208]>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.222117.0800.>

> This suggests that it is used in a more technical sense.
> "Commodify" I
> think usually has a disparaging or deploring tone.  As in
> deprecating the
> commodification of cultural values, &c.

I can't speak to "commodify," but "commoditize" does have a marketing jargon
sense. A product becomes commoditized when there is no significant
difference between competing brands and the competition is largely based on
price (i.e., it becomes a commodity). Long distance telephone service is a
good example of a commoditized product.

Commoditization is great for consumers, lousy for the providers of the
goods/service. Marketers go to great lengths to avoid the perception of
commoditization, promoting the quality of customer service or the "fact"
that it kills millions of germs on contact or whitens your teeth 60% faster,
etc.

In the Union Square example cited earlier, I took it to mean that the city
planners wanted a mix of locally owned stores and big "commoditized"
national chain stores. But the exact sense is hard to tell without more of
the article to provide context.


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Dec 31 10:01:34 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 05:01:34 -0500
Subject: Barry Popik letter in FT
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.050134.0500.>

All,

Our colleague Barry had a letter to the editor printed in the Dec 30 issue
of Financial Times (the pink paper paper).  Grab a copy and see.

Frank Abate


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 31 15:53:33 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:53:33 EST
Subject: WOTY
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.105333.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beth Simon writes:

<< are we subcategorizing again this year?>>

Yes, as always. Categories and their nominees are decided at the Friday
morning meeting. Everyone is invited.

<< There's a Most Otiose, right? >>
Well, we've called it Most Unnecessary. See the ADS website for winners and
categories of previous years.

- Allan Metcalf


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Dec 31 18:26:46 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:26:46 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <p04320401ba3687233546@[130.132.245.148]>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.132646.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oops--I missed the stress shift.  See you at ADS!

At 06:31 PM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>At 5:35 PM -0500 12/30/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>Maybe I missed something:  Were the NPR people really talking rhymes or
>>games, or was the name used seriously??
>
>Hi, Beverly,
>
>No, the idea of the limerick was from Peter Richardson and me
>(independently, although he was the one who actually tried one out--I
>had trouble coming up with a third rhyme); evidently the
>"an-DROC-uh-leez" pronunciation was seriously uttered on NPR.  My
>response here to you was that the schwa insertion may be
>phonologically motivated but the stress shift indicates unfamiliarity
>with the name.
>
>Larry
>
>>
>>At 02:43 PM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Beverly writes:
>>>
>>>>Schwa insertion is very normal and generally unnoticed by speakers.  Some
>>>>may monitor themselves and "correct" the pronunciation in certain
>>>>circumstances, but pronunciation is usually so deeply ingrained it's not a
>>>>big deal to the speaker--if a hearer raises eyebrows (as Mark did) or
>>>>repeats the word, maybe the user would change it, but probably not.  That's
>>>>why I was wondering who used the form, and whether there was a pause or
>>>>other reaction on the part of the hearer.
>>>>
>>>>It's most definitely not "substandard" or "illiterate"; it represents a
>>>>normal phonological process, much like its opposite, elision, as in
>>>>"s'pose" or "gonna."
>>>
>>>Well, yes to all the above, BUT there's something more going on if
>>>"Androcles" is pronounced so as to rhyme (as we've been saying) with
>>>"broccolis".  There's also stress shift, suggesting that (unlike
>>>schwa insertion in clusters like those in "fil[uh]m" or
>>>"jewel[uh]ry", for example) this is in fact the result of someone
>>>reading a word/name they've never actually heard pronounced rather
>>>than a phonological process per se.


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 31 18:48:07 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:48:07 -0500
Subject: "far to"...specific spot?
In-Reply-To: <l03130300ba3660b4f651@[12.107.146.48]>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.134807.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, sagehen wrote:

#While the expression "far to the north (south, east, west)"  is normal
#and familiar, "far to (specific spot)", which I ran across in a New
#England writer today, looks very odd to me.  Is this a regionalism or
#idiosyncratic?

I can only get it meaning "the distance from here (or other location) to
[specified spot] is far", and at that it seems to be almost negative
polarity: e.g. (made-up) "I asked if it was very far to Shrewsbury, and
they couldn't tell me."

I can't figure more about the construction you're asking about without
more context.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 31 18:50:19 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:50:19 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <a05200f00ba36bbe8e137@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.135019.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:

#>...and "chocolate" rhymed with "talk a lot").
#
#Rhymed or scanned?

Both, somewhat forced:
        Broccoli and choc-o-late
        It made the people talk a lot
The rhyme was somewhat less forced in the singer's (Caribbean?) dialect
than it would be in mine, with the last syllable of "chocolate" being
less destressed and reduced.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 31 18:51:08 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:51:08 -0500
Subject: WOTY Nomination: Captcha
In-Reply-To: <491445C6-1AB5-11D7-B8A9-000A9567113C@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.135108.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Darn, I thought I'd sent this a couple days ago.

On Sat, 28 Dec 2002, Grant Barrett wrote:

#This WOTY nomination is a late entry, coming into common usage only
#recently: captcha. A captcha distinguishes a human from a machine.
#Usually these devices are used to prevent repeated automated logins to
#web sites, such as free email services, which might be abused by
#spammers or others of ill intent.
#
#One mention:
#
#http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/28694.html
#
#The word is supposedly an acronym for Completely Automated Public
#Turing tests to tell Computers and Humans Apart).

Sounds like a bac(k)ronym to me.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 31 19:17:04 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:17:04 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021231132549.01f22238@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.141704.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:26 PM -0500 12/31/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Oops--I missed the stress shift.  See you at ADS!
>
I wish!  I'll have to miss this one for health reasons.  I'll be
there next year in Boston, though.  I'll have to get the lowdown on
the WOTY votes.  Happy new year!

Larry


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Dec 31 19:24:30 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:24:30 -0500
Subject: "far to"...specific spot?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212311345420.108473101-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.142430.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, sagehen wrote:
>
>#While the expression "far to the north (south, east, west)"  is normal
>#and familiar, "far to (specific spot)", which I ran across in a New
>#England writer today, looks very odd to me.  Is this a regionalism or
>#idiosyncratic?
>
>I can only get it meaning "the distance from here (or other location) to
>[specified spot] is far", and at that it seems to be almost negative
>polarity: e.g. (made-up) "I asked if it was very far to Shrewsbury, and
>they couldn't tell me."
>
>I can't figure more about the construction you're asking about without
>more context.
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel
~~~~~~
Of course I see your problem.  I didn't give enough information to be clear.
The partial quote: "He was in New York's Washington Heights section, far to
Manhattan's northern tip, near the George Washington Bridge....".

Either "far to the north" or "far up toward Manhattan's,&c." would be clear
at once to me, but this one I stumbled over.

This is a very able writer, which is why I wondered if it might be a
regionalism that I simply was unfamiliar with.
A. Murie





A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 31 19:35:17 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:35:17 -0500
Subject: "far to"...specific spot?
In-Reply-To: <l03130303ba3799f36493@[12.107.140.97]>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.143517.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, sagehen wrote:

#Of course I see your problem.  I didn't give enough information to be clear.
#The partial quote: "He was in New York's Washington Heights section, far to
#Manhattan's northern tip, near the George Washington Bridge....".
#
#Either "far to the north" or "far up toward Manhattan's,&c." would be clear
#at once to me, but this one I stumbled over.

Oh, me too! Even "far towards" would be better. I wonder if this is a
result of a slip in editing, either by an editor or by the author during
or after composition. I've found that the ease of editing electronic
text has more than once led me into errors that I can hardly imagine
making in hard-copy draft. -- Has anyone done a study of this
phenomenon?

#This is a very able writer, which is why I wondered if it might be a
#regionalism that I simply was unfamiliar with.

Whence he? I grew up in NYC and it's far from me!

-- Mark A. Mandel


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 31 19:51:47 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:51:47 -0500
Subject: "far to"...specific spot?
In-Reply-To: <l03130303ba3799f36493@[12.107.140.97]>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.145147.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:24 PM -0500 12/31/02, sagehen wrote:
>  >On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, sagehen wrote:
>>
>>#While the expression "far to the north (south, east, west)"  is normal
>>#and familiar, "far to (specific spot)", which I ran across in a New
>>#England writer today, looks very odd to me.  Is this a regionalism or
>>#idiosyncratic?
>>
>>I can only get it meaning "the distance from here (or other location) to
>>[specified spot] is far", and at that it seems to be almost negative
>>polarity: e.g. (made-up) "I asked if it was very far to Shrewsbury, and
>>they couldn't tell me."
>>
>>I can't figure more about the construction you're asking about without
>>more context.
>>
>>-- Mark A. Mandel
>~~~~~~
>Of course I see your problem.  I didn't give enough information to be clear.
>The partial quote: "He was in New York's Washington Heights section, far to
>Manhattan's northern tip, near the George Washington Bridge....".
>
>Either "far to the north" or "far up toward Manhattan's,&c." would be clear
>at once to me, but this one I stumbled over.
>
>This is a very able writer, which is why I wondered if it might be a
>regionalism that I simply was unfamiliar with.
>A. Murie
>
Speaking as someone who grew up in that very region (Fort Washington
Avenue and 163rd Street, echt Washington Heights), this is totally
unfamiliar to me.  I'll wager it's equally so to Mark M, who seems to
share the relevant regional traits.   (I share his judgments on the
negative polarity status of "it's (very) far to X":

If you're in Washington Heights, it's not (very) far to the G. W. Bridge
#If you're in Washington Heights, it's (very) far to the Golden Gate Bridge.

and then there's "it's a fur piece to...", but that thar's a different region.

Larry


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Dec 31 20:08:14 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:08:14 -0500
Subject: Fw: FT.com - Comment & analysis - Letters
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.150814.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Barry's letter on NY's winning the Olympics can be found at:


http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c
 =StoryFT&cid=1039524026955&p=1012571727279

[make sure whole URL is copied]


From self at TOWSE.COM  Tue Dec 31 20:15:12 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:15:12 -0800
Subject: Fw: FT.com - Comment & analysis - Letters
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.121512.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David Bergdahl wrote:
>
>  Barry's letter on NY's winning the Olympics can be found at:
>
> http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c
>  =StoryFT&cid=1039524026955&p=1012571727279
>
> [make sure whole URL is copied]

<http://tinyurl.com/3yvq>

TinyURL is a useful tool. You can either use the Web site
<http://tinyurl.com/> or pop a button on your toolbar if you find
yourself using the tool frequently, as I do.

In this case, the URL length was cut from 101 characters to 23.
Having fewer characters means fewer cutn'paste wrap problems.

Sal
--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Dec 31 21:00:31 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:00:31 -0500
Subject: "far to"...specific spot?
In-Reply-To: <p04320403ba37a47e376d@[130.132.166.207]>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.160031.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:51 PM 12/31/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>and then there's "it's a fur piece to...", but that thar's a different region.
>
>Larry

Hey, that's Southeast Ohio, where we also have a Fur Peace Ranch, run by
Jorma Kaukonen as a guitar camp and concert "venue" (somehow that word
doesn't sound right in this context).


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Dec 31 21:04:42 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:04:42 -0800
Subject: "far to"...specific spot?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021231155801.00b632d8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.130442.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Hey, that's Southeast Ohio, where we also have a Fur Peace Ranch, run by
> Jorma Kaukonen as a guitar camp and concert "venue" (somehow that word
> doesn't sound right in this context).

Sounds like a retirement home for superannuated mink. No?


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Dec 31 21:33:41 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:33:41 -0500
Subject: Fw: FT.com - Comment & analysis - Letters
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.163341.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

thanks
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Dec 31 21:41:04 2002
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:41:04 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Colonial Williamsburg Speech
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.164104.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Would someone be so kind as to help this person? Please reply directly
to him, and to the list, if you wish.

Début du message réexpédié :

> De: "James P Breig" <jbreig1 at nycap.rr.com>
> Date: Tue 31 Dec 2002  15:06:17 America/New_York
> I am researching an article for the Colonial Williamsburg Journal, the
> quarterly history magazine of the CW Foundation (www.history.org). The
> article will examine if and how researchers can recover how
> 18th-century Americans sounded, that is, what their accents were
> and the ways in which they pronounced English. The article is intended
> both for the average reader of the Journal and for character
> interpreters. Some questions I intend to answer are these: Did
> colonial Americans sound like modern-day Londoners? When and how did
> the southern accent evolve? What methods do philologists and others
> use to re-create 18th-century speech patterns?
>
> Can you recommend some experts I should contact who could help me with
> my article?
>
> Thank you,
> James Breig
> jbreig1 at nycap.rr.com


From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Dec 31 22:03:25 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:03:25 -0800
Subject: The Events
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.140325.0800.>

FWIW, I just heard Sandra Bullock on "The Daily Show" refer to 9/11 as "the
events." I hadn't heard that clipping of "the events of September 11th"
before.

She was talking about her new movie and said (I'm quoting from memory here,
so it's not an exact quote, but its pretty close): "Mayor Bloomberg did a
lot for us because we were the first movie to film in the city since the
events." There was no other mention or discussion of 11 September in the
interview.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  1 00:18:42 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:18:42 EST
Subject: Pinto Beans (1908)
Message-ID: <SAT.30.NOV.2002.191842.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

November, 1908
Bulletin 260

CORNELL UNIVERSITY
AGRICULTURAL EXPERIMENT STATION OF
THE COLLEGE OF AGRICULTURE
Department of Horticulture

_AMERICAN VARIETIES OF BEANS_
By C. D. JARVIS

ITHACA, N. Y.
PUBLISHED BY THE UNIVERSITY


Pg. 206:
         MEXICAN PINTO
   _Comparison._--This field variety is very similar to White Marrow.  Ecept
for being much later in season and somewhat darker in color of foliage, the
plant characteristics are the same.  The pods are slightly longer, narrower,
more depressed between beans, duller and darker green in color.  About the
same in vigor, hardiness and productiveness as White Marrow and not superior
to that variety in any respect.  It is largely grown in Colorado and
California.  Too late to be of value in this section of the country.
Pg. 207:
   _Synonyms._--Early Mohawk, Early Mohawk Six Weeks, Early Brown Mohawk,
Early Brown Six Weeks, Veitche's Early Favorite, Veitche's Progress Dwarf
French, North Star, Long Red Speckled Kidney, Purple Speckled Date, Red
Speckled Lady.
   _Confusing name._--French Mohawk is different from Mohawk.
   _History._--Catalogued by J. M. Thorburn & Co., as early as 1825.
   _Description._--Plant strictly dwarf, 14 to 18 inches high, very erect,
moderately compact, vigorous, very hardy, early, moderately productive.
Branches green.  Leaflets large, broad, crumpled, very rough, dark green.
Flowers light pink.  Snap pods large, variable, 5 1/2 to 6 1/3 inches long,
stout, very straight, flat, straight clean-cut point of medium length, five
to six-seeded, dark grenn, stringy, tough, coarse-grained, of poor quality,
attractive.  Dry seeds (1.6 X .75 X .6 cm.) oblong, broadly rounded ends,
subcircular in cross section, irregularly marked with fawn and reddish brown,
the latter predominating.
   _Comparison._--A well-known sort.  Peculiar for its tall, stiff habit of
growth and for its extreme hardiness.  It will withstand light frosts without
injury and is very resistant to disease.  The pods are more like Yellow Six
Weeks than any other, but are undoubtedly straighter, flatter, with a shorter
point and darker in color.  Owing to its unproductiveness the variety is
quickly passing out of use.  Plate I, fig.  _d_4; VII, fig. _e_7; XIII, fig.
4.


(This book was off-site.  My 2 p.m. bus from Philadelphia arrived in New York
80 minutes late, but I still got to the NYPL ten minutes before the 5:45 p.m.
closing...Any other bean varieties DARE or other people want me to check
on?...I'll look for any 1825 J. M. Thorburn & Co. catalogue...Quickly passing
out of use?  So why does even my local White Castle offer "pintos and beans"
as a side dish?--ed.)


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sun Dec  1 00:43:41 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:43:41 -0500
Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0211301741500.77512254-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.30.NOV.2002.194341.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 30 Nov 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote to Beverly Flanigan:

#"<<intermediate>> inverted script a"?
#
#As I read your post, it looks to me as if you are saying that "open /o/"
#-- by which I understand the IPA turned-c, a low-mid back rounded vowel
#-- is lower than "inverted script a" -- low back rounded vowel. And
#that's backwards. Or I've forgotten all the IPA I ever knew. And that's
#scary.
#
#Am I misunderstanding your post?

Grrrumph. I certainly was. My apologies to Bev and to the list. I'll
blame it on writing before supper. If I'd read the whole thing together
I'd've realized that Bev said exactly what she meant, and neither of us
was forgetting the IPA. <turned script a> IS reasonably "intermediate"
between <turned c> and <script a>, having the openness of the latter and
the lip formation of the former. I was miscuing off her phrase "full
/open o/", mis-taking "full" to mean "at an extreme of a range" (i.e.,
openness).

-- Mark A. Mandel


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  1 01:17:05 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:17:05 EST
Subject: Girl Scout Cookies (1932)
Message-ID: <SAT.30.NOV.2002.201705.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GIRL SCOUT COOKIES

   I walked by this new sign, at Arch Street near Broad Street in
Philadelphia:

      GIRL SCOUT COOKIES
   On November 11, 1932, Girls Scouts baked & sold cookies for the first time
in the windows of the Philadelphia Gas & Electric Co. here.  This endeavor
soon became a Philadelphia tradition.  In 1936 the Girl Scouts of the U. S.
A. adopted the annual cookie sale as a national program.

Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission 2001

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MISC.

NEXT L.O.C . (WASHINGTON D.C.) TRIP--I'm thinking of going back on Monday.
I'll have 8:30 a.m.-9:30 p.m. to do a lot of stuff.  I'll look for "I'm from
Missouri" in both the ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS and in the COLORADO SPRINGS GAZETTE
of 1897.  I have access to the WASHINGTON POST if anyone needs that.

EFFETENIK--Used by Michael Wolff in NEW YORK magazine.  I also saw it in the
NEW YORK POST a day or so ago.

PINTOS AND BEANS--From my last post.  I meant that White Castle offers "pinto
beans and rice."

EDIFICE COMPLEX--Mentioned in connection with NY Governor Nelson
Rockefeller's Albany government buildings in this Sunday's William Safire
column.  My work shows that the term pre-dates this.  As usual (and this is
happening nearly every week now), my work is not mentioned.

THE BACHELOR & AUDREY MUNSON--I filled out an online application for the ABC
show THE BACHELOR, but will probably never be considered.  My Audrey Munson
work inspired me in a way.  I found more information about her in the
California newspaper index and in the Washington Post online ("Former Model
Cursed by Her Great Beauty; Audrey Munson, Whose Divine Form Brought Her Fame
and Fortune, Is Now a Pitiful Figure, Impoverished, Jobless and Driven to
Seclusion by Shattered Nerves," 10-24-1926, pg. SM3).  There were San
Francisco articles about her engagement to a "Marquis Dinelli," and then her
famous search for a perfect man.  Her story would be unknown until 1996, when
she was rediscovered in the NEW YORK TIMES by Barry "Popick."


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  1 01:48:12 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:48:12 EST
Subject: I'm From Missouri (2 May 1897); Hoggie (19 March 1944)
Message-ID: <SAT.30.NOV.2002.204812.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 11/30/2002 12:06:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET writes:

> are there instances of words 'infiltrating' another language, then
>  eventually being spat back out, but now with a different (or additional)
>  meaning?

Mario Pei, in _The Story of Language_ (I do not have a copy handy) tells of a
Germanic word, "palla" or something like that, which entered Latin from some
early form of German,  then returned to a Germanic language (English) in the
form "Pall Mall", and eventually


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  1 07:00:50 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 02:00:50 EST
Subject: "Smart Alec" in NY TIMES ignores Cohen; Newish Jewish
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.020050.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"SMART ALEC" IN NEW YORK TIMES

   From Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG:

_smart alec/aleck_ n. (mid 19C+)(orig. US) an unpleasantly conceited, smug
person (cf. ALEC; CLEVER DICK). (proper name _Alec_ Hoag, a celebrated New
York City thief of 1840s, who, with his wife Melinda and his accomplice
French Jack, specialized in the PANEL GAME; for a detailed account of Hoag
and his carrer, _see_ Cohen (1985)).


   Gerald Cohen wrote about this in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY.  "Smart alec" is
discussed in the FYI section of Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES, but Cohen gets no
credit!  BREWER'S is cited, but Adrian Room--who edited the new edition of
BREWER'S--is likely to have relied on Gerald Cohen's work.  From FYI in the
CITY section of today's NEW YORK TIMES:

'Smart' Alec's Cons

Q. Is it true that the term "smart alec" was coined in New York?

A. Yes. According to Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (HarperCollins,
2000), "Smart Alec" was a real person, Alec Hoag, who lived in New York in
the mid-19th century, although his noted intelligence was mostly focused on
breaking the law.

Hoag was a well-known thief, pimp and confidence man who made his scores in
New York in the 1840's.

Along with his wife, Melinda, and an accomplice known as French Jack, he
operated a con called "The Panel Game" in which a prostitute lured a customer
to a room. An accomplice would then create a commotion outside the room,
prompting the mark to block the door with a table or chair. Under the
illusion of safety, the victim would fall asleep, at which point Hoag would
sneak in the room through sliding panels on the wall and would relieve the
sleeping mark of his remaining money and valuables.

Hoag generated a reputation for the ability to escape detection from both his
victims and the authorities, earning him the nickname Smart Alec. The term
was eventually applied to any conceited know-it-all.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
NEWISH JEWISH

   I saw "Newish Jewish" used to describe the cuisine for these eight crazy
nights.  There aren't many Google hits for it, but it's worth recording and
keeping  track of.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Dec  1 12:53:08 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 07:53:08 -0500
Subject: "Smart Alec" in NY TIMES ignores Cohen; Newish Jewish
In-Reply-To: <1a8.cd51e1a.2b1b0da2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.075308.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 1 Dec 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    Gerald Cohen wrote about this in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY.  "Smart alec" is
> discussed in the FYI section of Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES, but Cohen gets no
> credit!  BREWER'S is cited, but Adrian Room--who edited the new edition of
> BREWER'S--is likely to have relied on Gerald Cohen's work.  From FYI in the
> CITY section of today's NEW YORK TIMES:

Barry, what exactly is the circulation of Comments on Etymology, such that
every reporter is expected to have read and remembered every article in
it?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sun Dec  1 14:02:36 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:02:36 -0500
Subject: Journalist's Query: "Like"
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.090236.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Anyone want to field this?

> De: "Meadows, Susannah" <Susannah.Meadows at Newsweek.com>
> Date: Fri 29 Nov 2002  17:00:55 America/New_York

> Hello, I'm a reporter and I'm working on a piece about the usage of
> the word "like." I was hoping I could speak to someone at the American
> Dialect Society about the article. My number is 212-445-5412. thanks
> for your help,
>
> Susannah Meadows
>
> ______________
> Susannah Meadows
> General Editor
> 212-445-5412
>
> Newsweek
> 251 W. 57th St. | New York, NY | 10019


From patty at CRUZIO.COM  Sun Dec  1 16:36:56 2002
From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 08:36:56 -0800
Subject: LA Times story about infiltration of English words in the
 Japanese language
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021130141013.01e385c8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.083656.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Great reply Beverly!

Patty


At 02:19 PM 11/30/02 -0500, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>This has happened since the beginning of language and the migration and
>intermingling of language speakers!  The process isn't as sneaky as
>'infiltrating' makes it sound; it's called "borrowing," and once the new
>words have settled into the borrowing language, they're called "loan
>words," that is, until they become so familiar that most people no longer
>realize they came from somewhere else.  The perceived "threat" is just
>that--a groundless fear that no one can do anything about anyway.  English
>is probably the greatest borrower of them all; get hold of a history of the
>English language if you can!
>
>At 09:04 AM 11/30/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>are there instances of words 'infiltrating' another language, then
>>eventually being spat back out, but now with a different (or additional)
>>meaning?
>>
>>cheers - Vida.
>>
>>============
>>
>>TOKYO -- They slide under doors, through windows and past airport
>>immigration unnoticed. The Internet is a veritable breeding ground, as are
>>locker rooms and fashion runways. Seemingly harmless in small doses, their
>>wholesale import now threatens Japan's very identity, say critics.
>>
>>A new computer virus? An insidious North Korean spy plot or some new breed
>>of walking catfish? For many Japanese, the biggest invasion fear is the
>>flood of foreign words infecting their vocabulary, with English heading the
>>charge.
>>
>>http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-fg-invade30nov30001429,0,6
>>78427.story?coll=la%


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Dec  1 16:55:01 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 11:55:01 -0500
Subject: Origin of Word "Underdog"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0212010749200.4876-100000@minerva>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.115501.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The word "underdog" is said to have originated in a 19th-century song or
poem by David Barker ("The Under-Dog in the Fight").  Can anyone supply
any information about when this Barker text was first published, and
whether it was a song or a poem?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Dec  1 18:43:58 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 12:43:58 -0600
Subject: "Smart Alec" in NY TIMES ignores Cohen
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.124358.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   First, my thanks to Barry for mentioning my work on Smart Aleck. I
compiled considerable 1840's newspaper material on Aleck Hoag as
plausibly being the original smart Alec; but conclusive proof has
thus far been elusive. Writing Q.E.D. would therefore be premature.

    The account in the NY Times misses the smart Alecky nature of Aleck Hoag.
It wasn't simply that he was a celebrated thief but that with some
too-clever-by-half methods he tried to welch on his graft commitments
to the NYC police. Melinda would entice a stranger to NYC into a dark
street where she would embrace him, pickpocket his valuables, and
then hold them in her extended arms behind the back of the victim.
Hoag would pass by, take the stolen objects and later split the
proceeds with Melinda and the police.
The police provided Melinda and Alec protection in case a victim
filed a robbery complaint (The police would get back the stolen
item(s), slip them into the victim's clothing, and ask the victim to
check his pockets once more.)
Meanwhile, Melinda, having stolen the valuables from the victim's pockets,
would find a way to shake him off.

      Everything was going swimmingly until Aleck Hoag, tired of
splitting his hard-won gains with the police, decided to operate
without them.  He told Melinda to take her victims to a cemetery and
drop the stolen objects over the wall; Alec would be lying on the
other side waiting to receive them.

     The police soon discovered this tactic, and Aleck and Melinda
were forced to return to their former method of robbery and splitting
the proceeds with the police. But Alec was still dissatisfied and
went over to the panel game (two adjacent apartments are rented; a
panel door is secretly built to connect the two; Melinda gets victim
to lay his clothes neatly  on a chair near the panel door; she gets
into bed with the victim, draws the bed curtain, and during the
sexual excitement she gives a cough; Aleck enters, steals the
valuables, leaves quickly, goes to the front door of Melinda's
apartment, gives a furious knock, Melinda says "My God, it's my
husband!", victim slips on his clothes and leaves in great
haste--presumably via a window.)

      But Aleck no longer had the protection of the police, and it was
only a matter of time before a victim complained to the police; and
the apartment's location was of course known to the victim.

     Melinda and Alec were arrested. Melinda was promptly sentenced,
but legal proceedings against Aleck dragged on for some time, until
his resources were exhausted; then he was sentenced to prison.

     My guess in all this is that it was the NYC police who coined the
term "Smart Alec." He had dishonestly tried to cut the police out of
the spoils, and the police were no doubt delighted by Aleck's
subsequent troubles.
  The message of the police to other would-be shirkers was (as I
suppose): Don't be like Smart Aleck, who came to grief by being too
smart by half; honor your graft commitments or you too will come to
grief.

****

    Now to two bibliographical details:

1) Barry is correct that my work on "Smart Aleck" appeared in
_Comments on Etymology_ (March 1, 1977)--a series of working papers.
But it was later published formally: "Origin of _Smart Aleck," in my
_Studies in Slang_, part 1,
( = Forum Anglicum, vol. 14, part 1). Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang Verlag.
1985, pp.85-105.

2) In reply to Fred's question, _Comments on Etymology_ has a
subscription list of about 75. The number is small but includes
lexicographers and various leading scholars (plus many educated
laymen).  Fred is correct in forgiving the NY Times reporters for not
being familiar with Comments on Etymology. Btw, one reason the
subscription number is low is that I've never aggressively publicized
the publication. I'm happy to share the material with anyone
interested, but an increased subscription list would entail both
increased expense and work (To keep the subscription price
reasonable, Com. on Et. is published below its actual
printing/mailing costs.)

Gerald Cohen

P.S.  Alan Metcalf has urged me to prepare an index of Comments on
Etymology. I should really do this plus an index of my formally
published material.  The only thing delaying these projects is time
(in short supply).




>At 7:53 AM -0500 12/1/02, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>On Sun, 1 Dec 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>>     Gerald Cohen wrote about this in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY.  "Smart alec" is
>>  discussed in the FYI section of Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES, but Cohen gets no
>>  credit!  BREWER'S is cited, but Adrian Room--who edited the new edition of
>>  BREWER'S--is likely to have relied on Gerald Cohen's work.  From FYI in the
>>  CITY section of today's NEW YORK TIMES:
>
>Barry, what exactly is the circulation of Comments on Etymology, such that
>every reporter is expected to have read and remembered every article in
>it?
>
>Fred Shapiro
>

At 2:00 AM -0500 12/1/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>"SMART ALEC" IN NEW YORK TIMES
>
>    From Jonathon Green's CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG:
>
>_smart alec/aleck_ n. (mid 19C+)(orig. US) an unpleasantly conceited, smug
>person (cf. ALEC; CLEVER DICK). (proper name _Alec_ Hoag, a celebrated New
>York City thief of 1840s, who, with his wife Melinda and his accomplice
>French Jack, specialized in the PANEL GAME; for a detailed account of Hoag
>and his carrer, _see_ Cohen (1985)).
>
>
>    Gerald Cohen wrote about this in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY.  "Smart alec" is
>discussed in the FYI section of Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES, but Cohen gets no
>credit!  BREWER'S is cited, but Adrian Room--who edited the new edition of
>BREWER'S--is likely to have relied on Gerald Cohen's work.  From FYI in the
>CITY section of today's NEW YORK TIMES:
>
>'Smart' Alec's Cons
>
>Q. Is it true that the term "smart alec" was coined in New York?
>
>A. Yes. According to Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable (HarperCollins,
>2000), "Smart Alec" was a real person, Alec Hoag, who lived in New York in
>the mid-19th century, although his noted intelligence was mostly focused on
>breaking the law.
>
>Hoag was a well-known thief, pimp and confidence man who made his scores in
>New York in the 1840's.
>
>Along with his wife, Melinda, and an accomplice known as French Jack, he
>operated a con called "The Panel Game" in which a prostitute lured a customer
>to a room. An accomplice would then create a commotion outside the room,
>prompting the mark to block the door with a table or chair. Under the
>illusion of safety, the victim would fall asleep, at which point Hoag would
>sneak in the room through sliding panels on the wall and would relieve the
>sleeping mark of his remaining money and valuables.
>
>Hoag generated a reputation for the ability to escape detection from both his
>victims and the authorities, earning him the nickname Smart Alec. The term
>was eventually applied to any conceited know-it-all.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Dec  1 20:34:13 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:34:13 -0500
Subject: Origin of Word "Underdog"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0212011154200.16735-100000@minerva>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.153413.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>The word "underdog" is said to have originated in a 19th-century song or
>poem by David Barker ("The Under-Dog in the Fight").  Can anyone supply
>any information about when this Barker text was first published, and
>whether it was a song or a poem?

David Barker (1816-1874) is discussed here:

http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/me/penobscot/exeter/barker/sj3p183.txt

... apparently his first well-known poem was published in the New York
Evening Post in 1854 (it says here).

Barker's book "Poems" was published in 1876, apparently. No copy is
immediately available to me. Presumably the poem in question (whether or
not it's in this book) was published in a periodical at some earlier date.

The poem "The Under-Dog in the Fight" was apparently well known. This
expression apparently was taken up by Mark Twain (I don't know what date).
I don't know whether it began with Barker or whether it was already a stock
phrase before his poem.

Incidentally, MoA (Cornell) includes the following item "antedating" the
big dictionaries by 25 years (which item perhaps was already noticed by
Fred Shapiro):

1862: Dennar Stuart, "Camp-Meeting in Tennessee", in Harper's
26(151):97-102: p. 100:

<<"And, bretheren, you and I know that occasionally, if not oftener, I've
been the under-dog in the fight. ...">>

-- Doug Wilson


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Sun Dec  1 22:47:45 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 17:47:45 -0500
Subject: Origin of Word "Underdog"
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.174745.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Matthews' Dictionary of Americanisms cites B.F. Taylor, 1879.

--DS


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  1 22:52:02 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 17:52:02 -0500
Subject: Smart Aleck (1730?)
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.175202.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "Smart Alec" is mentioned in Irving Lewis Allen's CITY IN SLANG (Oxford University Press, 1993, paperback 1995 with my name added for "Big Apple").  There is a "smart alec" footnote to Gerald Cohen's STUDIES IN SLANG.
   Allen's CITY IN SLANG is hardly obscure.  You can buy it right now at your local Barnes & Noble.

---------------------------------------------------------------
SMART ALECK

   From the NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS ABD DIARIES database (available at the NYPL, NYU, and here at Columbia):


1. Franks, Abigail Bilhah Levy. "Letter from Abigail Bilhah Levy Franks to Naphtali Franks, December 12, 1735" [ Note]
28 There were three weekly newspapers in London in 1735. The Country Journal: or The Craftsman which began publication in 1727, reported foreign and domestic news, as well as carrying advertisements. The Grub-Street Journal, a "literary paper run by a number of smart alecks" was first issued in 1730 and was discontinued in 1737 and rerun in 1738. The third was the Weekly Miscellany, first issued in December, 1732. It included accounts of religion, learning, and foreign and domestic news.It was a leisurely paper written by those accustomed to deal

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Results Bibliography
Franks, Abigail Bilhah Levy, 1696-1756, Letter from Abigail Bilhah Levy Franks to Naphtali Franks, December 12, 1735, in The Lee Max Friedman Collection of American Jewish Colonial Correspondence: Letters of the Franks Family, 1733-1748. Hershkowitz, Leo and Meyer, Isidore S.. Waltham, MA: American Jewish Historical Society, 1968, pp. 171. [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [12-12-1735] S2057-D011 Franks:L2057-11


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  1 23:13:33 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 18:13:33 -0500
Subject: Lebkuchen (1856?, 1859)
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.181333.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Is "lebkuchen" English?  It's not in OED and not in Merriam-Webster.  There are 30,400 Google hits.  Google asks me if I want just English hits; the result is a still-considerable 4,140 hits.
   I've mentioned "lebkuchen" before in connection with other German dishes.  You'll be seeing "lebkuchen" a lot again this December, as always.
   From the NORTH AMERICAN REVIEW, October 1859, start page 451 of 28-page article:

   For a few kreutzers, one may hear from an orchestra of forty instruments passages from all the best operas, and from time to time original compositions of native artists, with a treat of "Lebkuchen," or sweet-cakes, added as a gratuity.

(Review of PICTURES OF NUREMBERG, AND RAMBLES IN THE HILLS AND VALLEYS OF FRANCONIA, by H. J. Whitling, New Edition, London: Richard Bentley, 1856--ed.)


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Dec  2 00:36:04 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 19:36:04 -0500
Subject: Fwd: %"Underdog" Song (Quotation Query #235)
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.193604.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 12/1/02 8:53 AM, Fred Shapiro at fred.shapiro at yale.edu wrote:

> The word "underdog" is said to have originated in a 19th-century song
or
> poem by David Barker ("The Under-Dog in the Fight").  Can anyone
supply
> any information about when this Barker text was first published, and
> whether it was a song or a poem?

Fred:

I didn't find a song with lyrics by David Barker but I found these
entries
at the Levy Sheet Music Collection

Title: The Under Dog in the Fight.
Composer, Lyricist, Arranger: Composed by A.J. Higgins.
Publication: New York: J.L. Peters, n.d..
Form of Composition: strophic with chorus
Instrumentation: piano and voice
First Line: I know that the world the great big world From the Peasant
up to
the King
First Line of Chorus: For the under dog in the fight
Plate Number: 617
Subject: Dogs
Subject: Fighting
Subject: Political elections
Call No.: Box: 051 Item: 101

Title: The under Dog in the fight
Composer, Lyricist, Arranger: Composed by A.J. Higgins
Publication: Chicago, Ill.: A. Judson Higgins, 40 Clark St., 1861.
Form of Composition: strophic; last verse has different music
Instrumentation: voice and piano
First Line: I know that the world, the great big world From the Peasant
up
to the King
Advertisement: Ads on back for A. Judson Higgons stock
Plate Number: 617
Subject: Dogs
Subject: Fighting
Call No.: Box: 032 Item: 112


If you go to that web site and type in "under-dog" in the search box you
will get these results and can view the lyrics and music online.

http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/advancedsearch.html

I also searched the American Memory Project at Library of Congress for
that
term with no applicable results.

Karen Weiss
Santa Barbara Public Library


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Dec  2 00:32:46 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 19:32:46 -0500
Subject: Origin of Word "Underdog"
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.193246.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM,Net writes:
>Matthews' Dictionary of Americanisms cites B.F. Taylor, 1879.

>--DS

Making of America has quote for under dog 1862.  What does American
Periodical Series have?

Regards,
David Barnhart


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec  2 02:55:52 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:55:52 -0500
Subject: Pretzels & Armored Cow, Battery Acid, Dog Food,
 Jelly Doughnut (food slang)
In-Reply-To: <b7.2aab607e.2b1854f1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.215552.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Nov 29, 2002 at 12:28:17AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>
> ---------------------------------------------
> DOUGHNUT DOLLY
>
>    Not in the RHHDAS.

Perhaps because it's not slang; _doughnut dolly_ was apparently an
official Red Cross name for female volunteers. This is mentioned
in the HDAS entry for _donut hole,_ which is found under that
spelling and not cross-referenced at the entry for _doughnut,_
due no doubt to the ineptness of the Random House editor who
worked on it.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Dec  2 03:06:27 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:06:27 -0600
Subject: Smart Aleck (1730?)
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.210627.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

>  The Grub-Street Journal, a "literary paper run by a number of smart
>alecks" was first issued in 1730 and was discontinued in 1737 and
>rerun in 1738.


***

     The question here is: Did the editors of the Grub-Street Journal
refer ca. 1730 to their publication as a "literary paper run by a
number of smart alecks"?
Or was this description added much later (19th or 20th century) by
someone injecting his own opinion about the editors and their work?

     If "smart aleck" really did appear in a London publication of ca. 1730,
this would be truly remarkable. As you know, the earliest attestation
thus far spotted is 1865 (in U.S.).

Jerry


>At 5:52 PM -0500 12/1/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>SMART ALECK
>
>    From the NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS ABD DIARIES database
>(available at the NYPL, NYU, and here at Columbia):
>
>
>1. Franks, Abigail Bilhah Levy. "Letter from Abigail Bilhah Levy
>Franks to Naphtali Franks, December 12, 1735" [ Note]
>28 There were three weekly newspapers in London in 1735. The Country
>Journal: or The Craftsman which began publication in 1727, reported
>foreign and domestic news, as well as carrying advertisements. The
>Grub-Street Journal, a "literary paper run by a number of smart
>alecks" was first issued in 1730 and was discontinued in 1737 and
>rerun in 1738. The third was the Weekly Miscellany, first issued in
>December, 1732. It included accounts of religion, learning, and
>foreign and domestic news.It was a leisurely paper written by those
>accustomed to deal...
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Results Bibliography
>Franks, Abigail Bilhah Levy, 1696-1756, Letter from Abigail Bilhah
>Levy Franks to Naphtali Franks, December 12, 1735, in The Lee Max
>Friedman Collection of American Jewish Colonial Correspondence:
>Letters of the Franks Family, 1733-1748. Hershkowitz, Leo and Meyer,
>Isidore S.. Waltham, MA: American Jewish Historical Society, 1968,
>pp. 171. [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [12-12-1735] S2057-D011
>Franks:L2057-11


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 03:20:23 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 22:20:23 -0500
Subject: Fish or Cut Bait (1868)
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.222023.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SMART ALECK--Columbia University has the GRUB STREET JOURNAL, but not from 1735.  I don't have time right now to track down the original note.

I'M FROM MISSOURI--I didn't find it in the DENVER POST from 1897 (I had looked many years ago), but I did find a poem that results in this note.

   11 July 1868, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8:
   Ex-councilman MERRITT was in favor of indorsing the nomination: they must either fish, or cut bait, and as they were not large enough to fish they must be content to cut bait for Tammany.

   26 April 1897, DENVER POST,pg. 4, col. 2 poem:
_Fish, Cut Bait, or Go Ashore._

(The online NEW YORK TIMES, with its reference to NYC politics, was the earliest place I found the phrase, but you can check again.  I searched for "cut bait"--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 03:34:59 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 22:34:59 -0500
Subject: Baking Soda, Cooking Soda, Baking Powder
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.223459.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I gave these a run through the databases.

BAKING POWDER
   I couldn't beat OED's 1850.
   The NATIONAL ERA, 25 November 1852, pg. 191 (American Periodical Series online) has an ad for DURKEE'S BAKING POWDER.  It is very possible that this was first made before 1850, but the first ad that I found for it is here.

BAKING SODA
   OED doesn't have a good entry for this.  It's under "soda."  Merriam-Webster has 1880?
   The Making of America (Mich.-Books) database has A. W. Chase's DR. CHASE'S RECIPES, 8th edition. Ann Arbor. Michigan, 1860, pages 31 and 173.
   GODEY'S LADY'S BOOK (Accessible Archives database) has it in May 1865, pg. 461.

COOKING SODA
   Another name for "baking soda."
   Making of American (Mich.-Books) has it in THE PROGESSIVE FARMER by John Adams, New York: A. O. Moore, 1859, pages 23 and 40.
   THE CHRISTIAN RECORDER from Philadelphia (Accessible Archives database) has it in 5 May 1866.


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Mon Dec  2 03:48:17 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 22:48:17 -0500
Subject: Fish or Cut Bait (1868)
In-Reply-To: <664DBE43.450C11A8.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.224817.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is what I've always taken the expression to mean, but how has it come
to mean "Get with the program or leave"?  It's used almost synonymously with
"Shit or get off the pot."

Herb




I'M FROM MISSOURI--I didn't find it in the DENVER POST from 1897 (I had
looked many years ago), but I did find a poem that results in this note.

   11 July 1868, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8:
   Ex-councilman MERRITT was in favor of indorsing the nomination: they must
either fish, or cut bait, and as they were not large enough to fish they
must be content to cut bait for Tammany.

   26 April 1897, DENVER POST,pg. 4, col. 2 poem:
_Fish, Cut Bait, or Go Ashore._

(The online NEW YORK TIMES, with its reference to NYC politics, was the
earliest place I found the phrase, but you can check again.  I searched for
"cut bait"--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Dec  2 04:12:51 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 23:12:51 -0500
Subject: Smart Aleck (1730?)
In-Reply-To: <p04310104ba106fb682bc@[131.151.65.69]>
Message-ID: <SUN.1.DEC.2002.231251.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>     The question here is: Did the editors of the Grub-Street Journal
>refer ca. 1730 to their publication as a "literary paper run by a
>number of smart alecks"?
>Or was this description added much later (19th or 20th century) by
>someone injecting his own opinion about the editors and their work?
>
>     If "smart aleck" really did appear in a London publication of ca. 1730,
>this would be truly remarkable. As you know, the earliest attestation
>thus far spotted is 1865 (in U.S.).

The quotation including "smart alecks" is on p. 50, in footnote 28. The
footnote is by an editor, apparently, ca. 1960's. The short quote is not
explicitly attributed, but the author of the footnote refers (elsewhere in
the same note) to a source dated 1932, a book about old English newspapers
I think, which is likely the origin. Anyway, I see no suggestion that the
expression was used in the 18th century.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 15:26:27 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:26:27 -0500
Subject: Jay Walk (1911, 1916); Snake Oil (1911)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.102627.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from the Library of Congress.   This won't exactly get me on Jay Leno or even pay my bus fare down here, but let's begin.  OED has 1917 for "jaywalk."  From WASHINGTON POST full text:


   7 May 1911, WASHINGTON POST, pg. M2:
_New York Faker's Paradise._
_METROPOLIS FULL OF RUBES WHO WILL FALL FOR ANY KIND OF SKIN GAME._
   (Kansas City Star.)
(...)
   Right in line with these fakers is a show that has had a long run on Broadway at Twenty-ninth street.  This is Prof. Blank's Snake Oil show.  The professor has a full company--including the live rattlesnake, and Rattlesnake Pete, the old Indian, who does the capturing for the oil.
   Kansas City used to consider itself a town of jay walkers.  That is another line to which New York deserves the discredit of being at the front of the procession.  A typical Manhattan would be run over and trampled on the sidewalk if he tried to walk on State street in Chicago as he walks on Broadway, New York.  He has never heard of the prehistoric principle of keeping to the right--he ambles all over the sidewalk.  A fac simile of his trail would show that he had pursued a course as crooked as that of a serpent with a bun (?) on.  There ought to be a traffic policeman stationed on the sidewalk at every corner to keep the pedestrians straightened out.

   5 March 1916, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A5:
   Maj. Pullman will arrange another day of education of "walk-rite" by the Boy Scouts.  The inital efforts of the boys in that direction were badly handicapped by the weather the day they were out educating pedestrians against the "jay-walk."

   26 November 1916, WASHINGTON POST, pg. R8:
   It is to be known as "walkrite."  THe Boy Scouts will be out in full force on the four Saturdays of December--2, 9, 16 and 23.  The "jaywalkers" are men and women who cross the streets at angles, between corners and otherwise recklessly walk in the roadways or cross the streets, thus increasing the number of accidents.  "Heads up" and "walk-rite" will be the slogans of the Boy Scouts.

   10 December 1916, WASHINGTON POST, pg. FD6:
   The banners of the boys displayed all over the city "Walk Rite" and "Do Not Jay Walk," attracted general attention, and as a result, a majority of pedestrians now follow safety first rules in crossing streets.

(THE BOY SCOUTS HAVE NO PLACE IN NEW YORK CITY!!--ed.)


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Mon Dec  2 15:54:02 2002
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:54:02 -0500
Subject: Pretzels & Armored Cow, Battery Acid,
 Dog Food,Jelly Doughnut (food slang)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.105402.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Perhaps doughnut dolly is not a slang phrase, but in my unit in the
Korean DMZ, Summer 1967, we were told to stop using the phrase because
those whom we called doughnut dollies were offended by the phrase.  I
don't remember what they wanted to be called.  Things heated up in the
DMZ in the Fall, and the doughnut dollies no longer visited our unit.

It seems that they (the dollies) considered our usage to be offensive.
Not sure if that condition moves the phrase into the slang category or
not.

George Cole
Shippensburg University


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 15:59:54 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:59:54 EST
Subject: Jay Walk (1911, 1916); Snake Oil (1911)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.105954.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/2/02 10:27:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM
writes:

> This won't exactly get me on Jay Leno

I don't know.  Jay Leno might indeed be interested in his eponymous Jay Walk.

> OED has 1917 for "jaywalk."  From WASHINGTON POST full text:
>
>     7 May 1911, WASHINGTON POST, pg. M2:
>  _New York Faker's Paradise._
>  _METROPOLIS FULL OF RUBES WHO WILL FALL FOR ANY KIND OF SKIN GAME._
>     (Kansas City Star.)
>  (...)
>     Kansas City used to consider itself a town of jay walkers.

Typical Washington Post ignorance.  That should be "jay hawkers", as Kansas
is the "Jayhawk" state.

"Jaywalk" is named after Henry "Jay" Walke, Capt. USN (1808-96), a well-known
naval officer of the Civil War, whose most famous exploit was to "Jay Walke"
the gunboat USS Carondelet past the Confederate fortifications at Island No.
10.

>  A facsimile of his
> trail would show that he had pursued a course as crooked as that of a
serpent
> with a bun (?) on.

A first guess at the meaning of "with a bun on" would be "intoxicated", but
that simply will not work.  As my father told me, since a sober snake is
crooked [note 1], a drunken snake can be used as a straight edge.

           - Jim Landau

[note 1} "crooked" in the sense of "sinuous" or "meandering", although
popular confusion with the meaning "dishonest" is why crooks are referred to
as "Meanderthals".


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 16:24:50 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:24:50 -0500
Subject: Sound Bite (1973); Smithfield Ham (1888); Liberty Cabbage (1918)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.112450.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SOUND BITE
   Not food, but if you do eat, take a good, sound bite.
   19 July 1973, WASHINGTON POST, Pg. A18:
   NBC had a crew on hand for two full days of the convention, and WTOP carried several informative stories with filmed interviews and sound bites from speeches.

SMITHFIELD HAM
   9 January 1888, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 2 ad:
   Have choice lot of GENUINE SMITHFIELD HAMS, 2 years old, cured by Todd.
(...)
G. G. Cornwell & Son.

LIBERTY CABBAGE
   OED has the incredibly late 1927.  Obviously, it's WWI stuff.  Anything else to look up?
   22 October 1918, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 5 ad:
_Kraut_ Now Known as Liberty Cabbage.  quart. 15c
(...)
Old Dutch Market


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  2 16:49:22 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:49:22 -0500
Subject: Sound Bite (1973); Smithfield Ham (1888); Liberty Cabbage
 (1918)
In-Reply-To: <6CFE4363.3FD90D11.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.114922.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

yOn Mon, 2 Dec 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> SOUND BITE
>    Not food, but if you do eat, take a good, sound bite.
>    19 July 1973, WASHINGTON POST, Pg. A18:
>    NBC had a crew on hand for two full days of the convention, and WTOP
> carried several informative stories with filmed interviews and sound
> bites from speeches.

This is a substantial improvement on the 1980 dating in OED and Safire's
New Political Dictionary.  Here is a slightly earlier citation:

1973 _N.Y. Times_ 21 Jan. 127 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers)  "Sound
bite" is simply a sound statement -- a person talking on film, as opposed
to silent.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Mon Dec  2 17:05:22 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:05:22 -0800
Subject: Dutch oven
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.090522.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I know we discussed Dutch oven back in October. Last
night on the food channel (Good Eats, Pantry Raid II:
Cool Beans) Alton Brown stated, authoritatively, that
the name comes from the fact that the Dutch had some
special way of making cast iron for the ovens. Any
truth to this? Do we need to start a letter writing
campaign?

Ed

__________________________________________________
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From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Mon Dec  2 17:11:26 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:11:26 -0000
Subject: Break a leg
In-Reply-To: <6CFE4363.3FD90D11.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.171126.0000.>

We had a discussion about 18 months ago concerning the origin of this
theatrical expression.

I've recently been looking into it for a piece and have been struck
by the paucity of examples in print. It's not in the OED, there are
no examples I can find in out-of-copyright works (suggesting it is
indeed from the 1920s at the earliest, as some dictionaries suggest)
and my earliest written examples are from the 1980s. Could one of our
indefatigable researchers turn their databases towards it for me?

Also, an American theatrical friend is sure that he used to hear it
as "neck and leg break", which would suggest - if his memory is not
playing him false - that the supposed German origin of the expression
is likely to be the right one.

Dating is important here, as it could provide pointers towards which
of the completing stories of its origin are true. Certainly, from the
evidence, the common supposition among actors that it dates from the
eighteenth century is quite wrong.


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 17:47:29 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:47:29 -0500
Subject: When the going gets tough, the tough get going (1961)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.124729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   23 February 1961, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A18:
   Persons in sports have a simple yardstick for measuring a first-rate performer.  When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

   6 August 1963, WASHINGTON POST, "This Morning..." with Shirley Povich, pg. D5:
   But the Senators would do well to take their creed from Eddie Erdelatz, the old Navy football coach, and one of his aphorisms that said: "When the going gets tough, the tough get going."

(Eddie Erdelatz!  The "a tie is like kissing your sister" guy!  Who would know that he's being some of the century's greatest quotations?--ed.)


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Dec  2 17:50:28 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:50:28 -0500
Subject: Journalist's Query: "Like"
In-Reply-To: <8B9A64D6-0535-11D7-B5AF-0003931D8244@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.125028.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Le Sunday, 1 Dec 2002, ? 09:02 America/New_York, Grant Barrett a ?crit :

> Anyone want to field this?
>
>> De: "Meadows, Susannah" <Susannah.Meadows at Newsweek.com>
>> Date: Fri 29 Nov 2002  17:00:55 America/New_York
>> Hello, I'm a reporter and I'm working on a piece about the usage of
>> the word "like." I was hoping I could speak to someone at the American
>> Dialect Society about the article. My number is 212-445-5412. thanks
>> for your help,

If you were kind enough to respond to this journalist's query, please
let me know. Otherwise, I want to make sure to push it in the direction
of people who might not be paying attention to the list.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec  2 17:54:32 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:54:32 -0500
Subject: Break a leg
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.125432.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Bear in mind that the superstition, that it's bad luck to say good luck on opening night (as they say in The Producers), is probably older than "Break a leg."

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Quinion [mailto:TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 12:11 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Break a leg


Certainly, from the
evidence, the common supposition among actors that it dates from the
eighteenth century is quite wrong.


From ekconley at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Dec  2 18:36:43 2002
From: ekconley at HOTMAIL.COM (Erin Conley)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:36:43 -0500
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.133643.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the small Kentucky community, where I grew up, people always referred to
the "trunk" of the car as the "boot."  I always thought it was the southern
way of saying it, until I first went to college in the mountains of Eastern
Kentucky.  It was there that my new friends laughed their heads off at
hearing me say this.  Someone told me that is how they refer to it in
England.  Does anyone know if theret is truth to that?  Since that time, I
have never heard any other Kentuckians refer to it as a "boot" other than
those who live in my little community.




_________________________________________________________________
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail


From traduction at WORLDONLINE.FR  Mon Dec  2 18:50:00 2002
From: traduction at WORLDONLINE.FR (Catherine Merlen)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:50:00 +0000
Subject: trunk vs boot
In-Reply-To: <F149cfMAExA7jjbKswU00036ea2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.185000.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

le 2/12/02 18:36, Erin Conley ? ekconley at HOTMAIL.COM a ?crit :

> In the small Kentucky community, where I grew up, people always referred to
> the "trunk" of the car as the "boot."  I always thought it was the southern
> way of saying it, until I first went to college in the mountains of Eastern
> Kentucky.  It was there that my new friends laughed their heads off at
> hearing me say this.  Someone told me that is how they refer to it in
> England.  Does anyone know if theret is truth to that?  Since that time, I
> have never heard any other Kentuckians refer to it as a "boot" other than
> those who live in my little community.
--

Indeed, the boot is the trunk in england. They even have boot-sales here,
some sort of swapmart or garage sales out of the boot of their cars.

Catherine


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  2 19:00:07 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:00:07 -0500
Subject: Query on vowel mergers
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.140007.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An undergraduate student here, James Sumner, is looking for
references to work on the classic merger of front lax vowels before
nasals in Southern States English, e.g. neutralization of the
distinction in "pin"/"pen".   Are there standard reference books or
articles on this, treating the class of nasals (other than /n/)
licensing the merger, and whatever other variables might be involved?
James is also curious about the [gIt] pronunciation of "get", which
is presumably a case of lexical diffusion (no [bIt] for "bet" or
[mIt] for "met").

Please send all responses to <james.sumner at yale.edu> as well as to the list.

Thanks.

--larry


From lesa.dill at WKU.EDU  Mon Dec  2 19:06:07 2002
From: lesa.dill at WKU.EDU (Lesa Dill)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:06:07 -0600
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.130607.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Boot" was/is?? widely used in Texas also.

Catherine Merlen wrote:

> le 2/12/02 18:36, Erin Conley ? ekconley at HOTMAIL.COM a ?crit :
>
> > In the small Kentucky community, where I grew up, people always referred to
> > the "trunk" of the car as the "boot."  I always thought it was the southern
> > way of saying it, until I first went to college in the mountains of Eastern
> > Kentucky.  It was there that my new friends laughed their heads off at
> > hearing me say this.  Someone told me that is how they refer to it in
> > England.  Does anyone know if theret is truth to that?  Since that time, I
> > have never heard any other Kentuckians refer to it as a "boot" other than
> > those who live in my little community.
> --
>
> Indeed, the boot is the trunk in england. They even have boot-sales here,
> some sort of swapmart or garage sales out of the boot of their cars.
>
> Catherine


From dave at WILTON.NET  Mon Dec  2 19:09:37 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:09:37 -0800
Subject: Break a leg
In-Reply-To: <3DEB943E.9413.F67991@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.110937.0800.>

> We had a discussion about 18 months ago concerning the origin of this
> theatrical expression.
>
> I've recently been looking into it for a piece and have been struck
> by the paucity of examples in print. It's not in the OED, there are
> no examples I can find in out-of-copyright works (suggesting it is
> indeed from the 1920s at the earliest, as some dictionaries suggest)
> and my earliest written examples are from the 1980s. Could one of our
> indefatigable researchers turn their databases towards it for me?
>
> Also, an American theatrical friend is sure that he used to hear it
> as "neck and leg break", which would suggest - if his memory is not
> playing him false - that the supposed German origin of the expression
> is likely to be the right one.
>
> Dating is important here, as it could provide pointers towards which
> of the completing stories of its origin are true. Certainly, from the
> evidence, the common supposition among actors that it dates from the
> eighteenth century is quite wrong.

Partridge's "Dictionary of Catchphrases," Paul Beale, ed. has a pretty good
write up on the phrase. No specific citations before the '70s though.
Although it does record actors recalling the phrase from the '30s and '40s.
HDAS has some cites from the '60s, IIRC.

Consensus seems to be that it's from the '20s, but I haven't seen actual
citations earlier than those in HDAS.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec  2 19:27:33 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:27:33 -0500
Subject: When the going gets tough, the tough get going (1961)
In-Reply-To: <1480101C.480DE10D.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.142733.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Dec 02, 2002 at 12:47:29PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>    23 February 1961, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A18:
>    Persons in sports have a simple yardstick for measuring a
> first-rate performer.  When the going gets tough, the tough
> get going.

>    6 August 1963, WASHINGTON POST, "This Morning..." with
>    Shirley Povich, pg. D5: But the Senators would do well to
>    take their creed from Eddie Erdelatz, the old Navy
>    football coach, and one of his aphorisms that said: "When
>    the going gets tough, the tough get going."
>
> (Eddie Erdelatz!  The "a tie is like kissing your sister"
> guy!  Who would know that he's being some of the century's
> greatest quotations?--ed.)

Hell, if you want to give Erdelatz some credit, you might as
well give him an earlier example of the phrase:

1956 Washington Post 30 Nov. A19 The Thing Erdelatz likes to
talk about most is the 'eagerness' of this team. Two big
signs in the Navy locker room read: "When the Going Gets
Tough, the Tough Get Going" and "A Little Extra Effort is
the Difference between Good and Great."

However, the WP of 23 August 1956 attributes the phrase
to Notre Dame football coach Frank Leahy.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec  2 20:06:40 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:06:40 -0500
Subject: trunk vs boot
In-Reply-To: <3DEBAF1F.9BA3F97D@wku.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.150640.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And I've had students from very far south in Ohio (Portsmouth, Ironton) who 
also use 'boot'.  Is it perhaps South Midland, or more generally Southern?

At 01:06 PM 12/2/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>"Boot" was/is?? widely used in Texas also.
>
>Catherine Merlen wrote:
>
> > le 2/12/02 18:36, Erin Conley ? ekconley at HOTMAIL.COM a ?crit :
> >
> > > In the small Kentucky community, where I grew up, people always 
> referred to
> > > the "trunk" of the car as the "boot."  I always thought it was the 
> southern
> > > way of saying it, until I first went to college in the mountains of 
> Eastern
> > > Kentucky.  It was there that my new friends laughed their heads off at
> > > hearing me say this.  Someone told me that is how they refer to it in
> > > England.  Does anyone know if theret is truth to that?  Since that 
> time, I
> > > have never heard any other Kentuckians refer to it as a "boot" other than
> > > those who live in my little community.
> > --
> >
> > Indeed, the boot is the trunk in england. They even have boot-sales here,
> > some sort of swapmart or garage sales out of the boot of their cars.
> >
> > Catherine


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec  2 20:17:27 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:17:27 -0500
Subject: Journalist's Query: "Like"
In-Reply-To: <8B36AF44-061E-11D7-A488-0003931D8244@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.151727.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:50 PM 12/2/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Le Sunday, 1 Dec 2002, ? 09:02 America/New_York, Grant Barrett a ?crit :
>
>>Anyone want to field this?
>>
>>>De: "Meadows, Susannah" <Susannah.Meadows at Newsweek.com>
>>>Date: Fri 29 Nov 2002  17:00:55 America/New_York
>>>Hello, I'm a reporter and I'm working on a piece about the usage of
>>>the word "like." I was hoping I could speak to someone at the American
>>>Dialect Society about the article. My number is 212-445-5412. thanks
>>>for your help,
>
>If you were kind enough to respond to this journalist's query, please
>let me know. Otherwise, I want to make sure to push it in the direction
>of people who might not be paying attention to the list.

I've had several students write papers on "like," with references from 
_American Speech_ and other scholarly journals.  It's been well studied, 
but apparently reporters don't know how to do an MLA or LLBA search!  I 
could pass on a couple of refs now that my grades are in.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  2 20:57:34 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:57:34 -0500
Subject: Break a leg
In-Reply-To: <000201c29a36$5bf7e780$0300a8c0@HPN5290>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.155734.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Dave Wilton wrote:

> Partridge's "Dictionary of Catchphrases," Paul Beale, ed. has a pretty good
> write up on the phrase. No specific citations before the '70s though.
> Although it does record actors recalling the phrase from the '30s and '40s.
> HDAS has some cites from the '60s, IIRC.

The earliest citation in HDAS is dated 1964.  Here is earlier from
ProQuest Historical Newspapers:

1957 _N.Y. Times_ 25 Apr. 23  All-Square Playhouse, a New York University
student dramatic group, will present an original musical, "Break a Leg."
... Alan Mount, a senior has written the score and book.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 21:07:19 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:07:19 -0500
Subject: Last in the American League (1904); Bullpen (1913)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.160719.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TOUGH GET GOING

   I searched for "the going gets tough" and "the tough get going" and 1961 was the earliest.  I knew I was missing something, and I was going to try a simpler query later.  I then searched for "going gets tough" and "tough get going"--leaving out the "the"--and got the three earlier hits.
   It certainly looks like it wasn't coined by Joe Kennedy...In that post, "being" should have read "behind."

---------------------------------------------------------------
I'M FROM MISSOURI

   I didn't find it in the COLORADO SPRINGS GAZETTE or the ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS of 1897.  You go blind looking at that small print.


---------------------------------------------------------------
LAST IN THE AMERICAN LEAGUE

   27 June 1904, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8:
   Charley Dryden says: "Washington--First in war, first in peace, last in the American League, rah, rah, rah."

---------------------------------------------------------------
BULLPEN

   Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY has 1915?

   17 August 1913, WASHINGTON POST, pg. S2:
   He corrects the faults of the youthful trajectory hurlers and takes them to the "bullpen" in the afternoon and keeps them warmed up.

   12 April 1914, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 10:
   At this juncture Manager Callahan crooked his index finger and "Butcher" Benz ambled in from the "bull pen."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 21:18:19 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:18:19 -0500
Subject: When the going gets tough, the tough get going (1961)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.161819.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Lots of other forms are close.  Try this:

   24 January 1943, WASHINGTON POST, pg. R5:
_Hornsby Sharp in Criticism_
_Of Would-Be Baseball Quitters_
(...)
   "When the going get tough is the time to do your hardest fighting.  Anybody can sail along when there's nothing to interfere and everything is bright and sunshiny.  What if we do lose some money.  It won't be the first time.  But we ought to keep the game going."


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 21:40:29 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:40:29 EST
Subject: When the going gets tough, the tough get going (1961)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.164029.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/2/02 4:19:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bapopik at AOL.COM
writes:

> Anybody can sail along when there's nothing to interfere and everything is
> bright and sunshiny.

Wasn't it Thomas Paine who referred to "summer soldiers and sunshine
patriots"?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 21:50:17 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:50:17 -0500
Subject: Ducks in a Row (1932); Bees Knees
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.165017.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DUCKS IN A ROW

   13 June 1932, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 14:
   We have a world filled today with problems and we are trying to get our economic ducks in a row.

---------------------------------------------------------------
BEES KNEES

   29 June 1923, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 15:
   "Dis am de bee's knees."

   25 January 1925, WASHINGTON POST, pg. SM7:
_THE EVOLUTION OF SLANG_
_Whether It's "Apple Sauce" or "The Oyster's Earrings," You Will Always Find the "Dippy Dialect" Expressive of the Fads and Foibles of Current Life, as Ada Lewis, the Comedienne of Bowery Fame, Here Tells_
   NO NOON hour on the college campus or in the office lunchroom would be complete without the words: "Apple sauce," "red-hot mama," "dumb-dora," "petting," "the bee's knees," "the snake's hips," "the elephant's manicure," not to speak of the "tadpole's teddies."
(...)
(The following is in a box--ed.)
         _Jargon of the Juveniles_
_Grandma_             _Mother_            _Daughter_
Charmer               Vamp                Red-hot mama
Hot air               Spoofing            Apple sauce
Wall flower           Dead one            Flat tire
Heart breaker         Lady killer         Sheik
The laugh             Merry ha-ha         Raspberries
Dude                  Sport               Cake-eater
Four-flusher          Sponge              Lounge lizard
Sparking              Spooning            Petting
Cutie                 Chicken             Flapper
Good for you!         Bully!              Attaboy!
Quit yer kiddin'      Lay off             Be yourself
Up stage              Putting on the dog  Ritzy
Ah, there!            O you kiddo!        Hot dog!
The goods             The cheese          Cat's meow
Guy                   Poor simp           Poor fish
Beat it               Skidoo              Ankle along
Poor sport            Tight-wad           Cheap skate


(I'll have to look up "Ada Lewis, mistress of modern slang" in the NYPL Performing Arts Library's clipping files--ed.)


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Dec  2 22:01:17 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:01:17 -0500
Subject: Break a leg
In-Reply-To: <3DEB943E.9413.F67991@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.170117.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, I've heard a Yiddish form cited, "Brekh a fiss".

-- Mark A. Mandel


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec  2 22:43:49 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:43:49 -0500
Subject: wash cloth to worsh rag
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0211301938340.77537115-100000@shell01.TheWor
 ld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.174349.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Mark!
Actually, I like your physics-of-the-mouth description (openness of script
a with lip formation of turned c).  I'll use that next time I teach dialect
variation to my grad students!  I don't bother to teach the turned script a
to my undergrads; but interestingly, when I ask southern Ohioans to
transcribe a word like "body" they almost always give me the turned c
(rhyming with my Northern 'bawdy'), suggesting that their phonemic sense of
the sound is that of open O.

At 07:43 PM 11/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>On Sat, 30 Nov 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote to Beverly Flanigan:
>
>#"<<intermediate>> inverted script a"?
>#
>#As I read your post, it looks to me as if you are saying that "open /o/"
>#-- by which I understand the IPA turned-c, a low-mid back rounded vowel
>#-- is lower than "inverted script a" -- low back rounded vowel. And
>#that's backwards. Or I've forgotten all the IPA I ever knew. And that's
>#scary.
>#
>#Am I misunderstanding your post?
>
>Grrrumph. I certainly was. My apologies to Bev and to the list. I'll
>blame it on writing before supper. If I'd read the whole thing together
>I'd've realized that Bev said exactly what she meant, and neither of us
>was forgetting the IPA. <turned script a> IS reasonably "intermediate"
>between <turned c> and <script a>, having the openness of the latter and
>the lip formation of the former. I was miscuing off her phrase "full
>/open o/", mis-taking "full" to mean "at an extreme of a range" (i.e.,
>openness).
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec  2 23:13:15 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:13:15 -0500
Subject: Black Friday
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.181315.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I've been seeing a lot of references to "Black Friday," the Friday after Thanksgiving that marks the traditional start to the Christmas shopping season.  (There are always some newspaper articles that call it the busiest shopping day of the year, though actually there are several other days that are busier.  Usually the Saturday before Christmas is the busiest shopping day of the year.)  I was general counsel at Child World, a then competitor of Toys R Us, before the company's demise in 1992, and I never heard the term there.  I'm more used to "black" days being days when the stock market crashed.

        "Black Friday" apparently refers to the day's heavy traffic.  The term seems to have become quite popular; a Google search for "Black Friday" and Thanksgiving produces 3570 hits.  The earliest use I've seen is from The Record, Northern New Jersey, 12/3/85:  "This is high noon on black Friday, the day after Thanksgiving, the first day of Christmas, the day when Route 46 and Route 23 clot with holiday pilgrims, the day when as many as 3,000 people beach up at Fountains of Wayne to see the animated Santa display."

        For an earlier reference to "Black Friday" as a Friday with heavy traffic, here's the Wall Street Journal, 1/23/84, referring to the 1984 Olympics:  "TRAFFIC:  Stanley Buckmaster has nightmares about "Black Friday."  That is what he and other officials at the California Transportation Department call Aug. 3 - a day when sellout boxing, swimming and track and field competition run almost all day long in the Coliseum - University of Southern California area.  Given Los Angeles's almost fanatical attachment to the private automobile and a shortfall of 16,000 parking places in the area, traffic could be a big problem."

John Baker


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 23:18:09 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:18:09 -0500
Subject: Mull (1963); Wedge (1959)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.181809.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MULL

   Jesse Sheidlower asked me for an earlier "mull" than DARE 1966. I probably have it.  I don't feel like looking through 60 years of AMERICAN COOKERY and TABLE TALK and BETTER HOMES & GARDENS and GOURMET right now, though.
   "Mull" is not in John Edgerton's SOUTHERN COOKING, at least not that I saw in the index.


GEMS FROM GEORGIA KITCHENS
Compiled by
The Garden Club of Georgia, Inc.
1963

Pg. 124:
      _SHRIMP MULL_
5 lbs. raw, peeled shrimp
2 quarts water
2 cans tomatoes
2 cloves garlic, sliced
2 sticks butter
2 tablespoons Worcestershire
1 can tomato soup
1 cup diced white bacon
1 cup chopped onion
1 lemon, sliced
1 bottle catsup
1 cup sherry
1 cup chopped celery
1 teaspoon celery seed
1/4 teaspoon curry powder
15 drops Tobasco sauce
Cooked rice
   Brown bacon with onion and one stick butter.  Transfer to a pot.  Add all other ingredients except shrimp and 1 stick butter.  Boil for 2 hours; then add raw shrimp; cook gently 1 hour more.  Add one stick of butter and sherry.  Place in tureen; serve over rice.


RECIPES FROM
THE OLDE PINK HOUSE
1771
Atlanta: DuBose Publishing
1981

Pg. 72:  Ogeechee Mull.

---------------------------------------------------------------
WEDGE

   Someone on this list worships wedges.  I don't know what DARE has.  Until they bring out my other telephone books:

Yonkers, Mt. Vernon, Bronxville, Tuckahoe
YELLOW PAGES CLASSIFIED TELEPHONE DIRECTORY
1960
Corrected to October 13, 1959

Pg. 315, col. 1 ad:
_GAITO'S INN_
YOnkers 9-9269
Specializing in
ITALIAN
HOT WEDGES
TO GO
434 SAWMILL RIVER RD.  YONKERS


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Dec  2 23:36:16 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:36:16 -0500
Subject: FWD  query on SW dialect
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.183616.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A friend on the English faculty at N. Mex State U asked me to post this to
ADS-L.
Answers can be sent directly to him:

Tom Lynch  <tomlynch at nmsu.edu>

(with those of general interest copied to ADS-L).
A. Murie
~~~~~~~~~~
FWD
  > I've heard several people in New Mexico who I take to be full-blooded
Anglos who speak English with a noticeable Spanish accent.  I think some of
the Anglos who grow up in predominately Spanish-speaking communities must
pick this accent up as the standard form of English.  I don't know if
anyone has ever studied this, but it's quite interesting and suggests the
possibility of an emerging Southwestern accent.  Has anyone else noticed
this?  <
Tom Lynch  tomlynch at nmsu.edu
New Mexico State University


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  2 23:40:31 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:40:31 -0500
Subject: Black Friday; Wedge (1958)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.184031.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BLACK FRIDAY--My "Black Fridays of Finance" post is old in the ADS-L archives.  However, I specifically made a post about "Black Friday," the day after Thanksgiving.  Fred Shapiro checked the databases and came up with something that's before 1985.  I guess all that's been destroyed.

WEDGE--
Yonkers, Mt. Vernon, Bronxville, Tuckahoe
YELLOW PAGES
CLASSIFIED TELEPHONE DIRECTORY
1958
Corrected to January 3, 1958

Pg. 320, col. 3:
_GAITO'S INN_
Specializes in Hot Wedges
   434SawMillRiverRd---YOnkers 9-9269


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec  2 23:52:42 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:52:42 -0500
Subject: Black Friday; Wedge (1958)
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.185242.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        "Black Fridays of Finance" is there, but I don't see any posts before mine that mention "Black Friday" as the day after Thanksgiving.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM [mailto:Bapopik at AOL.COM]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 6:41 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Black Friday; Wedge (1958)


BLACK FRIDAY--My "Black Fridays of Finance" post is old in the ADS-L archives.  However, I specifically made a post about "Black Friday," the day after Thanksgiving.  Fred Shapiro checked the databases and came up with something that's before 1985.  I guess all that's been destroyed.


From sylvar at VAXER.NET  Tue Dec  3 01:57:51 2002
From: sylvar at VAXER.NET (Ben Ostrowsky)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:57:51 -0800
Subject: Black Friday
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540DB0F3@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.175751.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

By way of explanation, since I haven't seen this said explicitly on the
list (or did I miss it?) -- according to the discussion on Slashdot, it's
called Black Friday because it's said to be the day that many retailers
finally get into the black (become profitable) for the year.

Ben


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Dec  3 02:20:58 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 21:20:58 -0500
Subject: Black Friday
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.212058.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Yes, many of the news reports do attribute the name to retailers going into the black, and this may have been a factor in the term's acceptance, but the earliest cites seem to derive the term from its use to indicate a bad traffic day.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Ostrowsky [mailto:sylvar at VAXER.NET]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 8:58 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Black Friday


By way of explanation, since I haven't seen this said explicitly on the
list (or did I miss it?) -- according to the discussion on Slashdot, it's
called Black Friday because it's said to be the day that many retailers
finally get into the black (become profitable) for the year.

Ben


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Dec  3 02:54:24 2002
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:54:24 -0800
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <MON.2.DEC.2002.185424.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lesa:

> "Boot" was/is?? widely used in Texas also.

Where in Texas would that be?  Like some others on this list, I always
thought "boot" for "trunk" of a car was strictly British.
Anne G


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Tue Dec  3 09:34:26 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:34:26 -0700
Subject: Teaching American English
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.023426.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(I am sending this to the list for general information, and with the hope
that it might somehow get forwarded to Michael Adams and Anne Curzan, the
latter of whom is noted in the latest NADS as chairing the session on
Teaching Varieties of English in America at the upcoming ADS meeting. The
e-addresses given for both in the Directory of Members [which is titled
for 2001 -- a typo?] bounced when I tried to send the note to them.
Perhaps some of the old-timers on the list can add some corroborating or
additional information.) -- RCT

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anne,

        I was interested to see in the latest NADS that you and Michael
Adams are noting in a special JEL issue that American English has only
recently become a subject of study in American classrooms, and that you
are chairing a panel at the ADS meeting this year. I can't be present, but
thought I would pass along to you a historical note that you might
represent at the meeting (and if you are writing any more on this topic).

        I took a course on American English at the Linguistic Institute at
the University of Chicago in 1954, taught by Mitford Mathews. I don't know
whether this was a regular course, or one arranged just for the Institute.
It was a graduate course, and I also don't know whether he regularly
taught an undergrad version. But the UC press did put out a book of
readings edited by him that probably represented a selection that could be
used in an undergrad course. I don't know what courses Raven McDavid
taught at UC, but I would be surprised if he did not regularly offer such
a course either at the graduate or undergraduate level. Bagby Atwood also
offered a graduate course on dialectology in the 1950s at the University
of Texas (now -Austin), which mainly concerned American English, but there
was nothing formally offered at the undergrad level. However, we always
included something on this in our English grammar course at UT, which must
have been fairly common, as witness McDavid's appendix to Nelson Francis'
Structure of American English.

        Also, during the halcyon days of linguistics in the public school
curriculum in the 1960s, when Harold Allen and Albert Marckwardt were
presidents of NCTE, and NDEA summer institutes abounded, there was a lot
of emphasis on this subject in school textbooks, and the Texas Education
Agency even required (thanks to efforts by some of my good friends like
Mary Galvan, later president of TESOL) that English textbooks include
recognition of linguistic variation in American English (this was before
the conservative counter-revolution that took Texas, and the US, back to
the 1930s).

        During this period, materials and texts for college classes were
also being published, most of which subsequently went out of print. So I
suspect that the current interest can be regarded as a resurgence, rather
than a recent phenomenon. Here at the University of Arizona, I regularly
teach an undergrad/grad course on American English, as part of our
undergraduate concentration in English linguistics (which I suspect is
rare among English departments -- it would be interesting to know how
many universities have such a concentration; in fact, our department
recently overwhelmingly approved a requirement of a course on
language/linguistics for all undergraduate English majors). We also have
a separate undergraduate course in English sociolinguistics.

        Good luck with it all,

        Rudy Troike


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec  3 10:30:38 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:30:38 EST
Subject: Yanigan, Lalapaloosa (1904); TAD myth (April 1930)
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.053038.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MISC. (JUNK FOOD, SOUND BITE, LOLLAPALOOZA)

   I requested EAT, LIVE AND BE MERRY (1951) by Carlton Fredericks.  I made a
special trip to the Library of Congress in Washington; the NYPL record says
"missing."  I was looking for "junk food."  I waited five hours.  No book, no
returned call slip, no anything.  I was told that the book was coming from
another building, so it takes time.  Well, yeah--FIVE HOURS TO COME ACROSS
THE STREET?  Yeesh.  Every single trip this happens to the book I want
most...."Junk food" was not in his book from the 1940s.
   Merriam-Webster has 1972 for "sound bite."  I looked at OED's 1980 date.
My apologies--I take it all back.
   "Lollapalooza" is in the RHHDAS as "orig. unkn."  The first citation is
from George Ade in 1896.  The second citation (a baseball one) is from the
1898 SPORTING NEWS and "coll. B. Popik."  It's probably here somewhere
underneath my stuff from Easter Island, or is it mixed in with...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
YANIGAN, LALAPALOOSA

   10 April 1904, WASHINGTON POST, pg. S2:
    _ORIGIN OF "YANIGANS."_
_Baseball Term Which Applies to the Second Team in Practice._
Charles Dryden, in Philadelphia North American.
   With the opening of the annual spring training season the term "Yanigans,"
as applied to the second team in practice games, bursts into print.  The word
is used at no other time in the career of the athletes, and the fanatic, no
doubt, wonders why is a Yanigan.  He must have had an origin.
   Authorities on baseball trace the term to a native Philadelphian, no other
than the Hon. Mike Grady, a catcher and orator of renown.  Mike is said to be
the father of Yanigan, according to Connie Mack and Lave Cross.  These
historians claim the word was first applied to Philadelphia players, and
first apepared in the Philadelphia papers ten years ago.
   In 1894 the Quaker team went into camp at Hampton Roads, Va.  The immortal
Grady was a member of the party.  THe manager placed Mike in charge of the
also-rans, or second team, and the ease with which the Regulars walloped the
bitumen out of the dubs inspired Mike to produce a word that lives in the
language of the game.
   In the ancient Celtic tongue Yanigan means anything that can be easily
beaten, like carpets or a soft-boiled egg.  Being a student of the classics,
Mike was familiar with the word.  He had it stowed away in his mind, but
never found occasion to spring it until as captain of the second team his
proud spirit blazed under the sting of constant defeat.
   So it came about that one balmy afternoon in the spring of 1894, Hampton
Roads was stirred by the spectacle of Mr. Grady standing in the street in
front of the Quaker training quarters.  He was swinging his cap and howling,
"Come on, you Yanigan; come on and get it again!"
   No one present knew the meaning of the word, but it seemed to fit Grady's
mood and the case.  The scribes took it up, and from that day to this Yanigan
has emerged regularly from its hole along about groundhog time to play a
brief engagement in the public prints.  Soon after April Fool Day the word
hokes back to its hole to hibernate the better part of another year.
   Yanigan doesn't spread much ink outside of the Quaker City.  Sometimes the
St. Louis papers spring it, which fact strengthens the claim made on behalf
of Grady.  The irresponsible Mike once played in that city, and is now a
member of the Cardinal team, having been taken on as a special World's Fair
attraction to play first base and keep the conversation from lagging.
   Grady is also said to be the author of Lalapaloosa, the meaning of which
is somewhat obscure, though it sometimes butts into a tight game.  Mike would
gladly elucidate if gently approached by letter, care of the St. Louis
Cardinals.

(I'll send one right now--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
TAD MYTH

   Thomas A. Dorgan died in 1929.  I posted the Harry Stevens story in the
June 1930 RESTAURANT MAN as the earliest for the myth, but this is slightly
earlier.


   19, April 1930, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 15:
_PEGLER_ (Westbrook Pegler, who was also a columnist on the NEW YORK
WORLD-TELEGRAM--ed.)
(...)
_When Tad Dorgan Named_
_The Hot Dog._
   The most picturesque dealings he ever had were in the old Garden at the
six-day bicycle race s long before
(Continued on Page 17, Column 5)
Tex Richard brought in the strong-arm squad to refine the show to death.  Tad
Dorgan, the cartoonist, drew a picture against the background of the old
six-day race presenting the first known public reference to the common boiled
frankfurter as the hot  dog.  Since then, under the subtle sales pressure of
old Mr. Stevens' boys, the hot dog has become the native delicatessen of the
City of New York.  He has sold enough of them to girdle the earth, and the
original of Tad's cartoon, the picture that loosed the plague of hot dog
signs upon the countryside of the Atlantic seaboard, hangs in a frame in his
office.

(Again, DARE's Leonard Zwilling found this 1906 TAD cartoon.  Gerald Cohen
published Zwilling's TAD LEXICON about ten years ago. I found "hot dog" in a
Yale University publication of 1895--ed.)


From mlv at POBOX.COM  Tue Dec  3 12:05:18 2002
From: mlv at POBOX.COM (Michael Vezie)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:05:18 -0500
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.070518.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would wonder if the trunk/boot difference mirrors the hood/bonnet
difference (if where people say boot instead of trunk, they also say
bonnet instead of hood).

Michael


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Dec  3 13:57:57 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:57:57 EST
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.085757.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/3/02 7:05:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, mlv at POBOX.COM
writes:

> I would wonder if the trunk/boot difference mirrors the hood/bonnet
>  difference (if where people say boot instead of trunk, they also say
>  bonnet instead of hood).

Wasn't the rear luggage area of a stagecoach known as the "boot" on both
American and British stagecoaches?  If so, then it appears obvious why the
British refer to the "boot" of an automobile, and a good question why
Americans switched to "trunk".

As far as I am aware, Americans refer to the "hood" and "trunk" of a car, and
British to the "bonnet" and "boot".  Again the British use is more
consistent, since both ends of a car are called by names of items of clothing
which in fact are worn on opposite ends of the body.

Perhaps Americans a century ago were in the habit of putting belongings in
footlockers or steamer trunks and lashing them on the back of automobiles, oe
perhaps early American automobiles had rear luggage compartments that
resembled steamer trunks.

If Henry Ford had been an Inuit, would we refer to the covering over the
engine as a "parka"?

And then there is the problem of what to call the front luggage compartment
of a Volkswagen.

      -   James A. Landau
          systems engineer
          FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI)
          Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA


From THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU  Tue Dec  3 14:01:20 2002
From: THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:01:20 -0500
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.090120.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Actually, where I grew up (north Florida in the 1950s), that part of the car
was called the cooter shell, at least by some of my relatives.  This may
have been jocular usage, but it had some currency.

Thom Harrison


-----Original Message-----
From: Beverly Flanigan [mailto:flanigan at OHIOU.EDU]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 3:07 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: trunk vs boot


And I've had students from very far south in Ohio (Portsmouth, Ironton) who
also use 'boot'.  Is it perhaps South Midland, or more generally Southern?

At 01:06 PM 12/2/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>"Boot" was/is?? widely used in Texas also.
>
>Catherine Merlen wrote:
>
> > le 2/12/02 18:36, Erin Conley ? ekconley at HOTMAIL.COM a ?crit :
> >
> > > In the small Kentucky community, where I grew up, people always
> referred to
> > > the "trunk" of the car as the "boot."  I always thought it was the
> southern
> > > way of saying it, until I first went to college in the mountains of
> Eastern
> > > Kentucky.  It was there that my new friends laughed their heads off at
> > > hearing me say this.  Someone told me that is how they refer to it in
> > > England.  Does anyone know if theret is truth to that?  Since that
> time, I
> > > have never heard any other Kentuckians refer to it as a "boot" other
than
> > > those who live in my little community.
> > --
> >
> > Indeed, the boot is the trunk in england. They even have boot-sales
here,
> > some sort of swapmart or garage sales out of the boot of their cars.
> >
> > Catherine


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Dec  3 16:12:18 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:12:18 -0600
Subject: Yanigan (baseball term)
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.101218.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

First, thanx to Barry for unearthing the 1904 item on "Yanigan."
Also, the 19c Baseball discussion group has had a few messages on
this term (two of which are reproduced below my signoff, plus Barry's
message).

Gerald Cohen
member of American Dialect Society and 19cBB


>At 9:29 AM -0400 9/23/02, John Thorn wrote:
>X-Apparently-To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
>To: "Nineteenth Century" <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>Organization: The Toy Department
>From: "John Thorn" <john at toy-department.com>
>Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 09:29:47 -0400
>Subject: [19cBB] Re: Con Yannigan
>Reply-To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>In reply to Peter Morris's query:
>
>'Who on earth is Con Yannigan?  I have long been seeking the exact origins
>of
>the term "yannigan," used to describe a player on an inexperienced side
>(usually during spring training).  I have narrowed down the period of its
>origin and have found some interesting accounts about it, but nothing on the
>exact etymology.  Dickson's Baseball Dictionary goes so far as to say "there
>is no clear link between this word and a word in another language or an
>earlier form of English or an English dialect."  This seems promising; can
>you elucidate?"
>
>Here goes. Some fifteen yeras ago I found an undated news clip from the 1898
>New York World, titled "Armless, Legless Pitchers," in the Cy Seymour
>Scrapbooks in the National Baseball Library. I included it in my "Armchair
>Book of Baseball II, published buy Scribners in 1987." In my introductory
>remarks I wrote that the clip was "replete with unexpected pleasures" that
>included "the stunningly offhand solution to one of game's most perplexing
>mysteries--the origin of the epithet 'yannigan,' reserved for scrub or
>second-rate players."
>
>Here, from the World:
>
>"Another cripple who was famous as a ballpayer was 'Con' Yannigan, who made
>a big reputation around Hartford, Connecticut, several years ago. He was a
>first baseman and had a cork leg. Yannigan was brought out by 'Steve' Brady,
>of the 'Old Mets.' 'Steve' considered him one of the best first baseman he
>ever saw. A great play of his was to block off base runners with his game
>leg. Opposing players could sharpen their spikes to a razor edge, but 'Con'
>didn't scare for  a cent."
>
>Is this a Paul Bunyan sort of yarn? Maybe. But there it is, an emerging
>legend in 1898, and a solid answer as to how yannigans came to be called
>yannigans.
>
>John Thorn
>


****

[22 Sept. 2002 message from Peter Morris]:

>To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>From: "Peter Morris" <moxbib at voyager.net>
>Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 20:24:49 -0400
>Subject: RE: [19cBB] Con Yannigan
>
>Who on earth is Con Yannigan?  I have long been seeking the exact origins of
>the term "yannigan," used to describe a player on an inexperienced side
>(usually during spring training).  I have narrowed down the period of its
>origin and have found some interesting accounts about it, but nothing on the
>exact etymology.  Dickson's Baseball Dictionary goes so far as to say "there
>is no clear link between this word and a word in another language or an
>earlier form of English or an English dialect."  This seems promising; can
>you elucidate?
>
>One-Arm Daily was still alive and living in Baltimore in 1923 at age 75, but
>I've checked for a dc in Baltimore and Washington without success.  He'd
>already faded into obscurity by then and probably died in a hospital outside
>of Baltimore.
>
>Peter Morris



At 5:30 AM -0500 12/3/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>Date:         Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:30:38 EST
>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Subject:      Yanigan, Lalapaloosa (1904); TAD myth (April 1930)
>Comments: cc: ASmith1946 at aol.com
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU



>...   "Lollapalooza" is in the RHHDAS as "orig. unkn."  The first citation is
>from George Ade in 1896.  The second citation (a baseball one) is from the
>1898 SPORTING NEWS and "coll. B. Popik."  It's probably here somewhere
>underneath my stuff from Easter Island, or is it mixed in with...
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>---------------------------------------------
>YANIGAN, LALAPALOOSA
>
>    10 April 1904, WASHINGTON POST, pg. S2:
>     _ORIGIN OF "YANIGANS."_
>_Baseball Term Which Applies to the Second Team in Practice._
>Charles Dryden, in Philadelphia North American.
>    With the opening of the annual spring training season the term "Yanigans,"
>as applied to the second team in practice games, bursts into print.  The word
>is used at no other time in the career of the athletes, and the fanatic, no
>doubt, wonders why is a Yanigan.  He must have had an origin.
>    Authorities on baseball trace the term to a native Philadelphian, no other
>than the Hon. Mike Grady, a catcher and orator of renown.  Mike is said to be
>the father of Yanigan, according to Connie Mack and Lave Cross.  These
>historians claim the word was first applied to Philadelphia players, and
>first apepared in the Philadelphia papers ten years ago.
>    In 1894 the Quaker team went into camp at Hampton Roads, Va.  The immortal
>Grady was a member of the party.  The manager placed Mike in charge of the
>also-rans, or second team, and the ease with which the Regulars walloped the
>bitumen out of the dubs inspired Mike to produce a word that lives in the
>language of the game.
>    In the ancient Celtic tongue Yanigan means anything that can be easily
>beaten, like carpets or a soft-boiled egg.  Being a student of the classics,
>Mike was familiar with the word.  He had it stowed away in his mind, but
>never found occasion to spring it until as captain of the second team his
>proud spirit blazed under the sting of constant defeat.
>    So it came about that one balmy afternoon in the spring of 1894, Hampton
>Roads was stirred by the spectacle of Mr. Grady standing in the street in
>front of the Quaker training quarters.  He was swinging his cap and howling,
>"Come on, you Yanigan; come on and get it again!"
>    No one present knew the meaning of the word, but it seemed to fit Grady's
>mood and the case.  The scribes took it up, and from that day to this Yanigan
>has emerged regularly from its hole along about groundhog time to play a
>brief engagement in the public prints.  Soon after April Fool Day the word
>hokes back to its hole to hibernate the better part of another year.
>    Yanigan doesn't spread much ink outside of the Quaker City.  Sometimes the
>St. Louis papers spring it, which fact strengthens the claim made on behalf
>of Grady.  The irresponsible Mike once played in that city, and is now a
>member of the Cardinal team, having been taken on as a special World's Fair
>attraction to play first base and keep the conversation from lagging.
>    Grady is also said to be the author of Lalapaloosa, the meaning of which
>is somewhat obscure, though it sometimes butts into a tight game.  Mike would
>gladly elucidate if gently approached by letter, care of the St. Louis
>Cardinals.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Tue Dec  3 17:58:45 2002
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:58:45 -0800
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.095845.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Michael:

> I would wonder if the trunk/boot difference mirrors the hood/bonnet
> difference (if where people say boot instead of trunk, they also say
> bonnet instead of hood).

"Bonnet" for hood of a car is also supposed to be stereotypically British.
Annne G


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Dec  3 18:15:30 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:15:30 -0600
Subject: Fwd: Re: [19cBB] Re: Yanigan (baseball term)
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.121530.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: "John Thorn" <john at toy-department.com>
>To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>Cc: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at umr.edu>,
>    "George Thompson" <george.thompson at nyu.edu>
>Subject: Re: [19cBB] Re: Yanigan (baseball term)
>Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 12:23:29 -0500
>
>
>It may be that both Charlie Dryden and the author of the 1898 World story
>centered on Herbert Van Cleef (the armless, legless pitcher) had their
>tongues thrust firmly into their cheeks.
>
>In the end, the pursuit of Con Yannigan and his tribe may prove to be a
>snipe hunt (another baseball spring-training term of misted origin).
>
>john thorn
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at umr.edu>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Cc: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 11:12 AM
>Subject: [19cBB] Re: Yanigan (baseball term)
>
>
>>  First, thanx to Barry for unearthing the 1904 item on "Yanigan."
>>  Also, the 19c Baseball discussion group has had a few messages on
>>  this term (two of which are reproduced below my signoff, plus Barry's
>>  message).
>>
>>  Gerald Cohen
>>  member of American Dialect Society and 19cBB
>
><snip>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Dec  3 18:40:13 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:40:13 -0800
Subject: trunk vs boot
In-Reply-To: <75.380944b.2b1e1265@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.104013.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tuesday, December 3, 2002 8:57 AM -0500 "James A. Landau"
<JJJRLandau at AOL.COM> wrote:

> Wasn't the rear luggage area of a stagecoach known as the "boot" on both
> American and British stagecoaches?  If so, then it appears obvious why the
> British refer to the "boot" of an automobile, and a good question why
> Americans switched to "trunk".
>

> Perhaps Americans a century ago were in the habit of putting belongings in
> footlockers or steamer trunks and lashing them on the back of
> automobiles, oe perhaps early American automobiles had rear luggage
> compartments that resembled steamer trunks.

I remember during my childhood seeing the occasional old car with a trunk
shaped like a steamer trunk.  I don't remember the makes.  In style, they
appeared roughly contemporaneous with the Model A Ford. I'm sure an antique
car buff could identify makes and model years.

Peter Mc.

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Dec  3 19:06:12 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:06:12 -0500
Subject: Teaching American English
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212030226200.1795-100000@bast.u.arizona.edu >
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.140612.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Rudy, I forwarded this to Anne, since I'm in that session with her.  Others
may have done so by now too.  She moved to the U of Michigan just this
year, so the NADS may not have her new e-dress.  I'll copy my reply to her
and Michael too.

Your points are well taken; I'm old enough to remember this history
too.  In fact, a colleague here in another department knows nothing about
linguistics but still raves about a course on AmEng she took from Raven at
Chicago as an undergrad.  Our point at ADS is not to suggest such study is
"new" (or at least it's not my point) but to discuss innovative ways of
presenting variation, esp. for high schoolers and community groups.  I
think for a number of years after the halcyon years you refer to, this
focus was lost, at least in English departments, which turned their
attention to rhetoric and the teaching of SWE, plus maybe a course in the
history of English (which may touch on modern Brit Eng vs. "general" Am Eng
at best and probably goes in one ear and out the other).  Linguistics
departments (ours included) may have had such undergrad courses all
along.  But Education schools, which prepare the bulk of public school
teachers, are not at all interested in language variation, as far as I
know; their students are typically prescriptive Miss Fidditches, even after
they (reluctantly) take a sometimes required intro. to linguistics
course.  In Ohio, only upper primary (grades 4-6) teacher trainees now have
to take this course, and they usually wait until senior year to do
so.  Also, the course covers a little bit of everything, with only one or
two weeks devoted to AmEng variation, alas.

You've now helped me think through part of my presentation at ADS!

At 02:34 AM 12/3/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>(I am sending this to the list for general information, and with the hope
>that it might somehow get forwarded to Michael Adams and Anne Curzan, the
>latter of whom is noted in the latest NADS as chairing the session on
>Teaching Varieties of English in America at the upcoming ADS meeting. The
>e-addresses given for both in the Directory of Members [which is titled
>for 2001 -- a typo?] bounced when I tried to send the note to them.
>Perhaps some of the old-timers on the list can add some corroborating or
>additional information.) -- RCT
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Anne,
>
>         I was interested to see in the latest NADS that you and Michael
>Adams are noting in a special JEL issue that American English has only
>recently become a subject of study in American classrooms, and that you
>are chairing a panel at the ADS meeting this year. I can't be present, but
>thought I would pass along to you a historical note that you might
>represent at the meeting (and if you are writing any more on this topic).
>
>         I took a course on American English at the Linguistic Institute at
>the University of Chicago in 1954, taught by Mitford Mathews. I don't know
>whether this was a regular course, or one arranged just for the Institute.
>It was a graduate course, and I also don't know whether he regularly
>taught an undergrad version. But the UC press did put out a book of
>readings edited by him that probably represented a selection that could be
>used in an undergrad course. I don't know what courses Raven McDavid
>taught at UC, but I would be surprised if he did not regularly offer such
>a course either at the graduate or undergraduate level. Bagby Atwood also
>offered a graduate course on dialectology in the 1950s at the University
>of Texas (now -Austin), which mainly concerned American English, but there
>was nothing formally offered at the undergrad level. However, we always
>included something on this in our English grammar course at UT, which must
>have been fairly common, as witness McDavid's appendix to Nelson Francis'
>Structure of American English.
>
>         Also, during the halcyon days of linguistics in the public school
>curriculum in the 1960s, when Harold Allen and Albert Marckwardt were
>presidents of NCTE, and NDEA summer institutes abounded, there was a lot
>of emphasis on this subject in school textbooks, and the Texas Education
>Agency even required (thanks to efforts by some of my good friends like
>Mary Galvan, later president of TESOL) that English textbooks include
>recognition of linguistic variation in American English (this was before
>the conservative counter-revolution that took Texas, and the US, back to
>the 1930s).
>
>         During this period, materials and texts for college classes were
>also being published, most of which subsequently went out of print. So I
>suspect that the current interest can be regarded as a resurgence, rather
>than a recent phenomenon. Here at the University of Arizona, I regularly
>teach an undergrad/grad course on American English, as part of our
>undergraduate concentration in English linguistics (which I suspect is
>rare among English departments -- it would be interesting to know how
>many universities have such a concentration; in fact, our department
>recently overwhelmingly approved a requirement of a course on
>language/linguistics for all undergraduate English majors). We also have
>a separate undergraduate course in English sociolinguistics.
>
>         Good luck with it all,
>
>         Rudy Troike


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Dec  3 21:15:07 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:15:07 EST
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.161507.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's about time to remind ourselves that there's always DARE
whose very first volume has "boot" n 2 "the trunk of a car": citations from
Wisconsin, Kentucky, Georgia. Not the exact locations of our recent postings,
but the same sort of thinly scattered evidence.
- Allan Metcalf


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Dec  3 21:32:30 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:32:30 -0500
Subject: spring training
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.163230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Pitchers and catchers will be reporting before long -- well, ok, in 8 or 10 weeks, but it is never too soon to start thinking about baseball.

The earliest citation in the OED for "spring training" in a baseball context is from 1897.  Dickson's Baseball Dictionary doesn't have anything as early.
spring, n.1 7a
1897 Sporting News 27 Mar. 5/3, I am on my way to join the Boston team at Savannah where the players have all been ordered to report for *spring training. 1928 G. H. RUTH Babe Ruth's Own Book of Baseball i. 17 In 1925 when I collapsed in Asheville, during the spring training trip, a lot of people figured I'd never put on a uniform again. 1976 National Observer (U.S.) 12 June 14/3 Randolph was hardly awed at becoming a Yankee... I came to spring training looking for a job.
It has the phrase "spring training" from 1845, referring to militia training, from an apparently English source.
training, vbl. n. 2b  spec. Military drill; esp. in former use, a public meeting or muster at a stated time for drill of militia and volunteer forces; subsequently much used for the periodical camp work of the Territorials
1845 S. JUDD Margaret I. xv, Hash,..at the Spring training, was punished..for disorderly behaviour.

Here is a very early example of the phrase, in a cock-fighting context.
     Escaped from the Cock-pit in Liberty-st. while moving yesterday, three bantam Seriagapatam breed, and an English rooster, their feathers plucked, gaffs on -- the rooster's right eye a little punished -- bantams plump for spring training.
     New-York National Advocate, May 3, 1825, p. 2, col. 2

Presumably, the origin of the phrase was in militia training.  Would a fighting cock be put through anything that would likely be called "spring training"?  As you'uns all know, baseball was played in NYC in 1823, but still, I doubt that the organized association of manly and athletic young men who played the game then would have taken "spring training".  Still, it's interesting to see the phrase from so early, and in a sporting context.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec  3 22:04:57 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 17:04:57 -0500
Subject: spring training
In-Reply-To: <1f0e771efa66.1efa661f0e77@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.170457.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 3 Dec 2002, George Thompson wrote:

> 1897 Sporting News 27 Mar. 5/3, I am on my way to join the Boston team
> at Savannah where the players have all been ordered to report for
> *spring training.

I was the one who contributed that quotation to the OED Supplement.
There's a slightly earlier baseball usage in the New York Times:

1897 _N.Y. Times_ 20 Mar. 3 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers)  The
representatives of the New York Baseball Club were put through their usual
course of Spring training today under the watchful eye of Capt. Joyce, but
under cover.

Probably the Washington Post used this in 1896. Barry?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Dec  4 02:08:58 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:08:58 -0500
Subject: another dialect-related student query
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.210858.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

...from a different student than the one who was wondering about
research on the pin/pen neutralization and the explanation of where
and why we find "git" for "get".  (Anything on that?)

This other student was wondering where she should look for research
on restricted,
technical registers of English ("Boeing English", "scientific
English").  Has anyone worked (or seen work) on these proposals, or
come across papers, manuals, and other relevant data on these
technical registers?  (I recall something called "Basic English", but
I'm not sure that's the same idea.)

--larry


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Wed Dec  4 02:51:46 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:51:46 -0500
Subject: another dialect-related student query
In-Reply-To: <p04320406ba13125c1e7a@[130.132.245.143]>
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.215146.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry,

Have your student look into the English for Specific Purposes (ESP)
literature.  There's also a journal by that name.

Herb



...from a different student than the one who was wondering about
research on the pin/pen neutralization and the explanation of where
and why we find "git" for "get".  (Anything on that?)

This other student was wondering where she should look for research
on restricted,
technical registers of English ("Boeing English", "scientific
English").  Has anyone worked (or seen work) on these proposals, or
come across papers, manuals, and other relevant data on these
technical registers?  (I recall something called "Basic English", but
I'm not sure that's the same idea.)

--larry


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Wed Dec  4 03:04:23 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 22:04:23 EST
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.220423.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Talking with a smart student tonight, I mentioned "touch typing" and she
asked What's that? I explained it was typing using all of your fingers,
without looking, what you learn in a typing class. To her, that was just
"typing." Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
typing" with?

- Allan Metcalf


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Dec  4 03:15:18 2002
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:15:18 -0800
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.191518.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

allan metcalf asks:
 >Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
 >typing" with?

not entirely true.  i am such a two-fingered typist.  but then i'm
pretty old.

where and when do people learn touch-typing these days?  it does
seem to be pretty much universal among college kids in the u.s.
or at least the ones i see.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Dec  4 03:42:44 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 21:42:44 -0600
Subject: another dialect-related student query
Message-ID: <TUE.3.DEC.2002.214244.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

-----Original Message-----
From:   Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU]
Sent:   Tue 12/3/2002 8:08 PM
To:     ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Cc:	
Subject:             another dialect-related student query

...from a different student than the one who was wondering about
research on the pin/pen neutralization and the explanation of where
and why we find "git" for "get".  (Anything on that?)

----
I don't remember the specifics of the earlier query but here's something.

The pin/pen merger associated with the South is said to be a 19th century development. Its current distribution can be examined at Labov's Telsur site. A couple of citations for the historical developments:

Brown, Vivian R. 1991 Evolution of the merger of /I/ and /E/ before nasals in
Tennessee. American Speech 66: 303?315.

Bailey, Guy 1997 When did Southern English begin? In: Edgar W. Schneider (ed.),
Englishes Around the World. Volume 1: General Studies, British Isles, North America. Studies in Honour of Manfred G?rlach, 255?275. (Varieties of English around the World, General Series 18.) Amsterdam/Philadelphia: John Benjamins.

For a deeper historical perspective, have a look at Krapp's _The English Language in America_ vol. 2, pp. 98ff
Krapp suggests that both the prenasal raising and the raising in 'get' are Irish-English features. He shows lots of examples from colonial American records suggesting [I] in, e.g., "meadows", "held", "red" etc.  Interestingly he suggests that Ben Franklin had [I] in 'friend' and 'get'. 

(Larry, please forward to your student whose email I can't find).


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Dec  4 06:02:38 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 01:02:38 EST
Subject: Falaqa & Shabah (Iraqi tortures)
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.010238.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The 3 December 2002 NEW YORK POST, pg. 5, had a box on "Saddam's methods
of torture."  One is:

_FALAQA:_  Victims forced to lie face down and are beaten on the soles of
feet with a cable.

   A web search for this term also provides "shabah" or "shabeh," which is
enlonged sitting or standing in a painful position.
   There are many Google hits for "falaqa" and "shabah," but neither is in
the OED (unless I'm looking under the wrong spelling).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------

(O.T.  December 4th's WORDSPY "Words About Words" author is Erin McKean.
November 29th's Word Spy "Word of the Day" was credited to the ADS-L's
Laurence Horn--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Dec  4 09:40:58 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 04:40:58 EST
Subject: Surgical Strike (1968); Martini Lunch (1959); Ballpark Figure
 (1964)
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.044058.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   A few political terms I plugged into the WASHINGTON POST full text
database yesterday.  It's 3 a.m., but I just had a six-hour nap, so here
goes.
   The VILLAGE VOICE likes to be "politically correct." but why not just be
correct?  The latest issue is out, and there is still no correction to its
statement that "nutty as a fruitcake" was coined in 1935.  Ah, nothing
changes for me.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SURGICAL STRIKE

    It was believed that the 1981 Israeli strike against Iraq coined this
term, but it was first used for Vietnam.

   14 April 1968, WASHINGTON POST, pg. B1:
   As a further influence on policy makers I would cite the factor of
_bureaucratic detachment_.  By this I mean what at best might be termed the
professional callousness of the surgeon (and, indeed, medical lingo--the
"surgical strike" for instance--seemed to crop up in the euphemisms of the
times).
   In Washington, the semantics of the military muted the reality of war for
the civilian policy makers.  In quiet, air-conditioned, thick-carpeted rooms,
such terms as "systematic pressure," "armed reconnaisance," "targets of
opportunity" and even "body count" seemed to breed a sort of games-theory
detachment.

   19 January 1969, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 193:
   They urged not air raids on the missile sites but, for purposes of
scholarly gloss, a "surgical strike."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MARTINI LUNCH

   O.T.: In my "pretzel" letter food posting about the 90th anniversary of
the pretzel, I left off the date of the letter (May 12, 1951).

   25 October 1959, WASHINGTON POST, pg. C14:
_Yoga Expert Copes_
_With Martini Lunch_
   COPENHAGEN (UPI) Copenhagen business has run smack up against the problem
of those "three too many" martinis or acquavits at executive luncheons--and
has decided to do something about it.

   14 August 1960, WASHINGTON POST, pg. B11:
   Has any other city in the world developed the four-martini lunch to such a
wonderfully insane, totally human degree?
("Old Pluperfect On the Hudson," or New York City, is the title of the
story--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SOUFFLE RISE TWICE

   I don't know what Fred Shapiro has cooking on this.

   16 December 1955, WASHINGTON POST, George Sokolsky column, pg. 21
   It has been repeated that Alice Longworth, the most intelligent of living
Roosevelts, once said of Thomas E. Dewey, "who ever saw a souffle rise
twice?"  I did not verify the remark because it is too good to question.  it
can apply as well to Adlai Stevenson.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BALLPARK FIGURE

   17 May 1964, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A1:
   Yesterday, Administration officials called this a "ball park figure never
considered binding."  But they did draw attention to McNamara's White House
press conference on Thursday.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
FOGGY BOTTOM

   26 April 1883, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 4:
   He would take Anderson's heart to Foggy Bottom that night.

   15 January 1928, WASHINGTON POST, pg. SM10:
_Picturesque Names_
   _Identified Sections_
_"Murder Bay," "Hell's Bottom"_
   _and "Bloodfield," Part of_
   _Nomenclature._
(...)
   Another tough place was "Herring Hill" in Georgetwon.  It overhung Rock
Creek Valley.  "Foggy Bottom," a region whose center would be perhaps
Twenty-second and E streets northwest, and "Pipetown," east of Eleventh
street southeast, and north of the Eastern Branch, made famous by John Philip
Sousa's novel, "Pipetown Sandy," are names that have now become as extinct as
"Bloodfield," in South Washington.

("Foggy Bottom" is extinct?  You never know when someone will revive a word
or phrase or name--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BETTER RED THAN DEAD & BETTER DEAD THAN RED

   12 July 1961, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A17:
   It was no accident that he chose to aim his crudest menaces at the British
Ambassador, in whose country the sentiment, "better Red than dead," has
gained wider currency than elsewhere in the West.
(I don't have TIMES OF LONDON full text from my home computer to check
now--ed.)

   18 October 1961, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A17:
_These Days_
_Better Dead Than Red_
(...)
   As an example take the motto, "Better Dead than Red," now beginning to
crop up on bumper stickers.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
JOHN Q. PUBLIC

   I'd found this in the 1920s, in a sports column.

   2 January 1930, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 1:
   ...it was 12:30 o'clock before the President could take time out to grab a
sandwich and a cup of coffeeand be back on the line to start greeting Mr. and
Mrs. John Q. Public promptly at 1 o'clock.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
NERVOUS NELLIE

   The RHHDAS has "orig. in derisive ref. to Frank B. Kellogg, Secretary of
State 1925-29."  Cites are 1926, then 1944.  There's no early hit here,
unless I missed it.

   12 December 1937, WASHINGTON POST, pg. B2:
   And "Nervous Nellie" Kellogg, Nobel Prize winner, able and spindly-legged.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
THINK TANK

   Not the RAND version, but two early ones.   OED has 1905?

   19 August 1890, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 4:
   The Omaha _World-Herald_, referring to the newspaper men in attendance
upon the recent Democratic convention in Nebraska, calls them the "big think
tanks" of the State.  The word "think" in this connection suggests the
possibility of a typographical error on the part of an esteemed compositor.

   13 August 1895, WASHINGTON POST, Baseball Notes, pg. 6:
   Outfielder Anderson is something of a disappointment to the Brooklyn
management.  He is a fine sticker, but lacks a balance wheel in his "think
tank."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT

   23 December 1976, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A11:
_Budget-Boss Lance: "If It_
_Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It"_

----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
MOVING THE GOAL POSTS

   4 February 1978, WASHINGTON POST, pg. C12:
   "They keep moving the goal posts," he lamented.  "We're not afraid of
deregulation, though, " he said, "if they really took off all the wraps."
(Albert V. Casey, chairman and president of American Airlines--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
EDIFICE COMPLEX

   There's also a 1957 hit, but I like this cite.

   12 August 1959, WASHINGTON POST, pg. A12:
_Edifice Complex_
   "Yes, this building has a great deal of taste," Frank Lloyd Wright once
remarked blandly while inspecting a new structure, "but all of it is bad."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
GLASS CEILING

   This was 1986-1998.  Just the citation is given,  without a photo of the
page.
   "The Different Natures and Needs of Women" by Norman Podhoretz, WASHINGTON
POST, 20 August 1986, pg. A19.
   OED has 1984, but perhaps Podhoretz got a quote from the person who coined
it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MEANWHILE, BACK AT THE RANCH

   That's it?  A few months better than the NEW YORK TIMES in 1956?  LOS
ANGELES TIMES full text, please help!

   5 April 1956, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 53:
   Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Nats were on a treadmill.


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Dec  4 10:23:21 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:23:21 -0500
Subject: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.052321.0500.>

Allan M said:

>>
Talking with a smart student tonight, I mentioned "touch typing" and she
asked What's that? I explained it was typing using all of your fingers,
without looking, what you learn in a typing class. To her, that was just
"typing." Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
typing" with?
<<

I would say that this is evidence that the term is generational and perhaps
fading, so maybe to be labeled "older" or even "obsolescent".  But I and
millions of others have it in our passive vocabulary, at least.  I remember
touch typing courses and books, from the 50s and 60s.  In my high school
(all boys) a typing class was required (I graduated in 1969).

More evidence would be needed to nail down the status of this term.  But
this is a telling incident you're telling us, Allan.  Same kind of thing is
happening re dial telephones (and the word "dial" re use of telephones),
glass milk bottles (now in antique stores here, though still in daily use in
the UK), inkwells, and other such once-familiar aspects of our society, now
fading or moribund.  Typewriters may soon join that list, but I still see
them here and there, and there are some die-hard users of manual typewriters
around.  One can still buy typewriter ribbons, maybe even at Staples, or Wal
Mart.

Frank Abate


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Dec  4 10:10:13 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:10:13 -0500
Subject: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.051013.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Frank (and all):

I just googled "touch typing" and received 31,000 hits (ouch!).

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Dec  4 11:40:37 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:40:37 -0500
Subject: FW: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.064037.0500.>

David B noted:

>>
I just googled "touch typing" and received 31,000 hits (ouch!).
<<

Seems like the term does not need a label in any dict, unless someone uses
an "older generations" label -- and then only maybe.

Frank Abate


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Dec  4 11:41:25 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:41:25 EST
Subject: Spring Training (1896); Hidden Ball Trick (1896);Holy Cow!
 (1923);Slud (1948)
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.064125.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Some baseball terms, checked with WASHINGTON POST full text.  Gerald Cohen
can re-post this if he wants.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SPRING TRAINING

   22 March 1896, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8:
   Why, Southern trips became a fad with major League managers in the spring
training of the Orioles in 1894.  These Southern trips have been more or less
popular among clubs of the major League and the old American Association for
the past seven years.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
HIDDEN BALL TRICK

   Paul Dickson has 1908.

   29 April 1896, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 4:
   His masterly work in the field resulted in team work for the Senators that
made the Orioles appear as a lot of the veriest amateurs, the hidden ball
trick and a rush home from third by Abbey when Pond was off his guard being
among the clever points gained.

   29 June 1902, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 9:
   In no previous season within the past five years has the "hidden ball
trick" been worked so frequently as this.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BALL ORCHARD

   31 March 1907, WASHINGTON POST, pg. D4:
   Ball orchards are the favorite breeding places of green-eyed monsters.
(From the CHICAGO TRIBUNE--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
HOLY COW!

   The RHHDAS has 1934 for "Holy cow!"  It's not used in a baseball setting
here.

   11 March 1923, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 92:
THE POTTERS  by J. P. McENVOY
(...)
BILL:  Bacon and eggs and toast and Jav'--
   Gosh, it's always the same old chow!
PA:  What if it is?
BILL:  O, holy cow!
   I'm sick of bacon and tired of eggs!
MAMIE:  Give him some ficassed humming bird legs,
   Or butterfly ankles...
PA:  Or oyster's knees.
   Too bad about you and your bacon...
MA:  Please!
   How many times do you have to be told?
   Eat your vittles before they're cold!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
SLUD

   11 February 1948, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 20:
_They're Taking Dizzy's_
_Microphone Away Again_
(...)
   Now it looks again like the good people of St. Louis no longer will hear
such informative phrases as "he slud into third" and "he throwed him out at
home."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SPIT BALL

   Dickson has 1905.

   1 November 1903, WASHINGTON POST, pg. TP10:
   A dispatch from Chicago says:  Local baseball players and incoming
professionals have one topic of conversation now, and that is the nerew ball
the California pitchers are bringing back with them.  Among this lot is
"Skel" Roach, who has it down to a science.  It is said that every pitcher,
big and little, is working on it, and before long there will be fifty, at
least, who will have mastered the mysterious "drop."  It is called the
"spitball," from the fact that the pitcher moistens his pitching forefinger
just before delivering the ball.  This act in some way takes from the ball
all the twist, which, ordinarily, gives the ball its curve near the plate.

   30 August 1904, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8:
   "The high-sky pitchers with spit balls, armories in left field, gas tanks
in center field, close fences in right field, cigar box parks, and foxy
managers make it a hard place for old-timers."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
HIT FOR THE CYCLE

   27 September 1933, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 18:
   Jimmy Foxx, Athletic's slugger, is one of only six players in all major
league history to "hit for the cycle," that is, get a single, double, triple
and homer in four times at bat in one game.

(It's also applied to one game, regardless of four or more times at bat--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
GOPHER

   Paul Dickson has 1932.

   22 March 1930, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 13:
   "What's a gopher ball?" queried Dick.
   "It's hard to explain what it is, but I can give illustrations.  Every
time I pitched it I heard the fellows on the other teams yelling, 'Go for
two!  Go for three!'"
(Dick Coffman of the St. Louis Browns and "a big league pitcher"--ed.)

   14 April 1931, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 17:
_"Gopher" Hurler_
_Back With Yanks_
(...)
   Shortly after he (Vernon Gomex--ed.) joined the club a gag grew up about
his celebrated "gopher ball."
   When he threw his "gopher ball," Gomez explained, base-line coaches of
opposing teams invariably bellowed to the batter, "Go-fer three."
   The joke was quite funny,  but it soon developed that it contained too
much truth.  Gomez wound up the season hurling for St. Paul, in the American
Association.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
RELIEF PITCHER

   Dickson has 1914.

   1 July 1906, WASHINGTON  POST, pg. S1:
   In three consecutive games Connie Mack used Big Chief Bender as a relief
pitcher.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
FIREMAN

   A relief pitcher.  Dickson has 1939, citing Barry Popik.

   13 August 1948, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 14:
   Mace "Fireman" Brown, only other Pirate pitcher who has won ten or more
games, failed to put out the conflagration and Chicago added three more runs
in the ninth.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
GRAND SLAM

   22 April 1929, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 11:
   ...for the same reason that the homer, since the manufacturers socialized
the grand slam is all too often wasted in defeat.
(Not a bases-loaded homer, but just a homer--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BALTIMORE CHOP

   Dickson has 1910.

   20 July 1907, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 8:
   In the seventh, when the almost-run occurred, Hinchman broke loose with a
single that bounded over Altizer's head.  The revival of the ancient
Baltimore chop was appreciated.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------
BALTIMORE FAREWELL

   Dickson has 1954-1955.

   6 September 1957, WASHINGTON POST, pg. D2:
   The Orioles introduced something new into baseball with the famed
"Baltimore farewll."  This is a particularly unsympathetic gesture to a
pitcher who has just had his ears pinned back and it's never been fully
appreciated by a visiting club.  The Baltimore farewell consists of everyone
in the stands waving handkerchiefs and it's the subtlety of the thing which
leaves visiting pitchers muttering to themselves.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SOPHOMORE JINX & GO TO TOWN

   7 April 1938, WASHINGTON POST, pg. X28:
  Will DiMaggio, who escaped the sophomore jinx, add playing-season
difficulties to his holdout troubles?
  (...)(Pg. 29--ed.)
   They have some backs that can really "go to town."
(Football running backs--ed.)

--------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------
DREAM TEAM

   The "Dream Game" was held in 1934, according to Dickson.

   14 December 1934, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 26:
_"Dream Team" Assembled For East; Coach Hanley Jubilant Over Material for
All-Star Fray on Coast._

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SUBWAY SERIES

   4 July 1934, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 13:
   NEW YORK, July 3 (AP)--Proponents of the "subway series" this fall between
the Yankees and the Giants for the world baseball championship may enjoy
something of a pre-view when the all-star teams of the National and American
League battle in gilt-edged formation next Tuesday at the Polo Grounds.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
YANKEES

   Another team had the nickname before New York.  Again, you'll never know
any of this from anything associated with the Yankees' 100th anniversary
celebrations this year.  The below is from Lexington, Virginia.

   10 May 1903, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 9:
   The Lafayetts defeated the Yankees, who consisted of a few substitutes off
the Technicals, by the score of 9 to 7.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Dec  4 11:55:18 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:55:18 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <200212040315.gB43FIA12345@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.065518.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I too am digitally challenged in the typing world (although I note an
occasional semiconscious activation of the digit "4" - right hand
only - for the "right arrow" key, seldom paralleled by "4" on the
left hand for "Tab," Caps Lock," and "Shift" which would seem
reasonable), and I am also of arnold's generation, with even slightly
greater length to my tooth, but arnold did give a "pretty" hedge to
his "old."

dInIs


allan metcalf asks:
  >Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
  >typing" with?

not entirely true.  i am such a two-fingered typist.  but then i'm
pretty old.

where and when do people learn touch-typing these days?  it does
seem to be pretty much universal among college kids in the u.s.
or at least the ones i see.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From sylvar at VAXER.NET  Wed Dec  4 12:31:49 2002
From: sylvar at VAXER.NET (Ben Ostrowsky)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 04:31:49 -0800
Subject: Falaqa & Shabah (Iraqi tortures)
In-Reply-To: <fb.3180fbfe.2b1ef47e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.043149.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> _FALAQA:_  Victims forced to lie face down and are beaten on the soles of
> feet with a cable.

Sounds like bastinado.  Speaking of which:

http://www.steel-door.com/bastinado.htm

"Falaq, Falanga, Falaka, Fallagas: all appear to be variants of the same
word which is used in mid-eastern cultures to refer to a small crop like
weapon which is approximately 18" in length, with a hardened inner shaft,
the outside made of leather either braided or wound around the 'cane'. The
word/s by extension becomes the practice of using this weapon to inflict
punishment to the soles of the feet."

Ben


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Wed Dec  4 14:13:15 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 06:13:15 -0800
Subject: Falaqa
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.40.0212040428580.22192-100000@maple.vaxer.net>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.061315.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More generic than just "falaqa", actually.  Why do we
use "q" instead of "k" in rendering Arabic into
English?  Why Qatar, which I've heard pronounced on
the BBC news as more like "gutar" or even "gutter",
instead of Katar?  The sound in Arabic is presumably
distinct from the English "k" sound, but it usually
becomes simply "k" in English, whether the "q" or "k"
is used to represent it.  If it's closer to "g" than
"k", why not use the "g"?  Why this seeming
affectation for "q" in English rendering or borrowing
of Arabic?


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Dec  4 14:28:27 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:28:27 -0500
Subject: Which and Falaqa
In-Reply-To: <20021204141315.28591.qmail@web9705.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.092827.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Why the affectation of "wh" in "who," "why," "which," whether,"
etc...? Why the affectation of "oe" in Goethe? Are all spellings
which do not phonemically represent English (leaving the question
which English aside since Michigan English is obviously to be
preferred) pronunciations affectations?

dInIs



>More generic than just "falaqa", actually.  Why do we
>use "q" instead of "k" in rendering Arabic into
>English?  Why Qatar, which I've heard pronounced on
>the BBC news as more like "gutar" or even "gutter",
>instead of Katar?  The sound in Arabic is presumably
>distinct from the English "k" sound, but it usually
>becomes simply "k" in English, whether the "q" or "k"
>is used to represent it.  If it's closer to "g" than
>"k", why not use the "g"?  Why this seeming
>affectation for "q" in English rendering or borrowing
>of Arabic?
>
>
>=====
>James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
>South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
>jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
>                                |or slowly and cautiously.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Dec  4 14:27:49 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:27:49 -0500
Subject: "Derivation" Board Game
In-Reply-To: <a05010401ba139c611c77@[35.12.19.52]>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.092749.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Don't remember seeing this mentioned and I checked the archives - so, for
anyone who's interested...

Microsoft retiree turned game maker found
                     that clich?s kept springing to mind

                     By Brier Dudley
                     Seattle Times technology reporter

                     For Brad Chase, a high-profile Microsoft
                     executive who left the company last year,
                     retirement has been fun and games,
                     literally.

                     The man who orchestrated the launch of
                     Windows 95 and ran MSN is launching his
                     own product today, a board game called
                     Derivation that will be sold in part to raise
                     money for charities. The launch comes the
                     same day his former baby, MSN, kicks off
                     its latest version.

                     Chase, 42, first came to Microsoft in 1987
                     and was one of a string of high-ranking
                     executives who have left in recent years. In
                     1999, he testified for the company in its
                     federal antitrust trial.

                     He said he considered working for another
                     company or teaching. Instead he's
                     spending much of his time developing and
                     marketing the game out of his Mercer
                     Island home.

                     An organized person who favors using
                     motivational goals, Chase had decided that
                     his priorities in retirement were fun, flexibility,
family and philanthropy ? "the f
                     sounds," he said.

                     "As I worked on this game, I realized it was
fulfilling everything I wanted," he
                     said.

                     At least 25 percent of after-tax profits from the
$29.95 game will be donated to
                     charities, including Mercer Island-based Teachers
Without Borders and the
                     national Reading is Fundamental program. Chase said
he'll donate to the
                     charities no matter how the game fares.

                     Inspiration struck at a barbecue in the summer of
2001. He noticed the language
                     he and his friends were using was littered with common
phrases ? some would
                     say clich?s ? including "cart before the horse" and
"happy as a clam." He
                     began wondering where the phrases came from, and
decided that had the
                     makings of a game.

                     Derivation comes with cards with hundreds of phrases,
words and quotes and
                     their origins. Players advance by correctly guessing
the origins, or by making up
                     origins and bluffing other players into believing they
are true.

                     Players may also progress by drawing pictures or
acting out origins that are
                     correctly guessed by other players.

                     Chase started too late to get widespread distribution
for this holiday season but
                     the game will be available at various Seattle-area toy
and game stores.

                     It's a tough business to enter, said Gary Teachout,
who is adding Derivation to
                     the roughly 8,000 games at his Gary's Games store in
Greenwood. About 1,500
                     to 2,000 new games are introduced every year and fewer
than 100 remain in
                     business longer than a year, he said.

                     "It's a real brutal business," he said. "The biggest
problem is getting the game
                     to market. Too many people get a great idea for a
game, design the thing, get it
                     made and then when it's stuck in their basement they
have no idea how to get it
                     to market."

                     Teachout said people in the software industry are
particularly drawn to games
                     because their training is in logical, strategic thinking.

                     Having taken some of the most successful software
products in history to
                     market could give Chase an edge. He also has money to
get started and said
                     he has already invested "six figures."

                     Chase developed Derivation using the Office software
he marketed at Microsoft.
                     He started by building spreadsheets of definitions,
word origins and quotes.

                     Once he had the game laid out he hired an old business
associate, the artist
                     who designed the boxes for MS-DOS and Windows 95, to
give the game a
                     professional look.

                     The game is being sold through a company Chase formed
called Entspire ?
                     derived from the words entertain and inspire ? that is
working on its second
                     venture.

                     Entspire is developing a line of books called "Whitz,"
collections of funny
                     stories. Chase is encouraging people to submit funny
stories, which he will
                     publish and share proceeds with charities.

                     Chase came up with the idea on a trip to New York when
his brother-in-law told
                     him a particularly funny story. Who knows what he'll
come up with next.

                     Brier Dudley: 206-515-5687 or bdudley at seattletimes.com.

                     Copyright ? 2002 The Seattle Times Company


From THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU  Wed Dec  4 14:51:42 2002
From: THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:51:42 -0500
Subject: Falaqa
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.095142.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My understanding is that the "q" spelling of Arabic words is used for a
velar stop that is farther back than the one that occurs in English and is
not phonetically conditioned, as is the English "k" sound.  It is also
sometimes transliterated as "g" as it Kaddafi/Qaddafi/Gaddafi.

I'm no authority, but I have been coached by some Arabs.

Thom Harrison

-----Original Message-----
From: James Smith [mailto:jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 9:13 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Falaqa


More generic than just "falaqa", actually.  Why do we
use "q" instead of "k" in rendering Arabic into
English?  Why Qatar, which I've heard pronounced on
the BBC news as more like "gutar" or even "gutter",
instead of Katar?  The sound in Arabic is presumably
distinct from the English "k" sound, but it usually
becomes simply "k" in English, whether the "q" or "k"
is used to represent it.  If it's closer to "g" than
"k", why not use the "g"?  Why this seeming
affectation for "q" in English rendering or borrowing
of Arabic?


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From damiller at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU  Wed Dec  4 16:13:27 2002
From: damiller at UNAGI.CIS.UPENN.EDU (David Miller)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:13:27 -0500
Subject: Linguistic Study at LDC
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.111327.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greetings,

The Linguistic Data Consortium at the University of Pennsylvania
(www.ldc.upenn.edu) needs participants for FISHER, a new telephone speech
study to be conducted in the Early Winter 2002-2003.  In contrast to prior
regional studies (Switchboard), FISHER will be national (North America).
The FISHER project will be undertaken to support linguistic research,
technology development and education.  All calls will be recorded for these
purposes.  Particpant Identities will be kept strictly confidential and not
released with the data.

FISHER participants will take part in 1 to 3 telephone calls talking to
other participants on suggested topics for ten minutes.  FISHER topics can
be found at the URL below:

http://www.ldc.upenn.edu/Projects/EARS/Fisher/topics.html

A robot operator will initiate all calls. Particpants need only answer
their phones at the time they specify during the registration process.

Participants will be compensated $10 per call.  In addition, for each call
made, participants will be eligble for 1 chance at (3) $1000.00 lottery
prizes.

To register for this study please see the following page:

http://www.ldc.upenn.edu/Projects/EARS/Fisher/intro.html

or call 1 800 380 PENN, to register and for more information

Sincerely,

Dr. David Miller
FISHER Project Manager

--
David Miller                             Linguistic Data Consortium
(215) 573-9458                         3600 Market Street - Ste. 810
damiller at ldc.upenn.edu                         Philadelphia, PA 19104


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Dec  4 16:34:03 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:34:03 -0800
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <1a7.cfde91d.2b1ecab7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.083403.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I was on the admissions committee here I noticed that lots of
students were taking a HS class called "keyboarding," so I guess that's
what's become of "touch typing"--unless "keyboarding" is now applied only
to the quasi-musical instrument.

I'd guess that increased use of the web by even little kids has spawned a
whole generation of touch typists. A parallel is found in those of
lightning thumb, the proficient cell phone dialers; there have been some
articles recently in the NYT about them, including, I think, a contest in
Japan to see who could enter a string of something like 100 numbers the
fastest--or who could enter the most numbers in a given time.  This would
be the modern equivalent of the old wpm (words per minute) test that
secretaries had to pass.

Incidentally, "touch typing" is known in German as "10 Finger blind,"
although in normal touch typing the left thumb is never used. Just why
it's not "9 Finger blind" has always escaped me; but then most things have
escaped me over the years...

Peter R.

On Tue, 3 Dec 2002 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:

> Talking with a smart student tonight, I mentioned "touch typing" and she


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Dec  4 17:36:33 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:36:33 -0800
Subject: Falaqa & Shabah (Iraqi tortures)
In-Reply-To: <fb.3180fbfe.2b1ef47e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.093633.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

These are not unique to Saddam or to Iraq. The basic definition of
"falaqah" from Lane's Arabic-English Lexicon (1863-93) is "a thick staff
to the ends of which are attached the two ends of a rope, by means whereof
a man's legs are secured, between the rope and the staff, when he is
bastinaded." Wehr Dictionary of modern written Arabic (4th ed.) gives the
less wordy "a device for holding the legs of the delinquent during the
bastinado".
Also from Lane, shaba[dot below]h v. "extend or stretch (it or him)
between pegs or stakes ... [to stretch] a man between two things to be
flogged" shaba[dot below]hah by extension, the stakes themselves.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>    The 3 December 2002 NEW YORK POST, pg. 5, had a box on "Saddam's methods
> of torture."  One is:
>
> _FALAQA:_  Victims forced to lie face down and are beaten on the soles of
> feet with a cable.
>
>    A web search for this term also provides "shabah" or "shabeh," which is
> enlonged sitting or standing in a painful position.
>    There are many Google hits for "falaqa" and "shabah," but neither is in
> the OED (unless I'm looking under the wrong spelling).
>


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Dec  4 17:43:17 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:43:17 -0800
Subject: break a leg, again
In-Reply-To: <a05010402ba13c0fcb183@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.094317.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Recent discussion of the provenance of "break a leg" led me to Lutz
Roehrich's Lexikon der sprichwoertlichen Redensarten for information about
the German equivalent, "Hals- und Beinbruch". Roehrich maintains--as was
mentioned on this list recently--that the notion of wishing someone the
opposite of what's really meant is, to be sure, firmly anchored in folk
belief but in this case is falsely applied. He derives "Hals- und
Beinbruch" from Hebrew "hazloche un broche" [hazlacha 'good fortune' +
b'racha 'blessing']. It's easy enough to hear through "haz-" and "broche"
to Hals and Bruch. This doesn't help us with "break a leg," but it does, I
think, suggest that we should expect earlier attestations of our own
version to pop up at some point--perhaps in a communication from Barry,
who has flown to London to examine old playbills just for this purpose.

Peter R.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed Dec  4 17:58:13 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:58:13 -0700
Subject: Pen-pen merger
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.105813.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry,

        I also have the merger "stem" and "strength". It was only a few
years ago that I learned that anyone pronounced an /E/ in "friend" (thanks
to Gordon for mentioning that), since I have to rely on spelling to guess
which phoneme differentiators use. (Of course, this sometimes results in a
hyper-form for "English" for some Southerners.) I was listening to a talk
on morphology once by a colleague from New Jersey, and was bothered that
he seemed to have a non-English accent in his pronunciation, so I started
focusing on that, and soon realized that it was the high frequency of the
term "stem", with /E/, that created that impression for me.

        Rudy


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Wed Dec  4 18:01:51 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:01:51 -0700
Subject: Trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.110151.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What part of Texas was/is "boot" used in? I never heard it in South Texas.

        Rudy


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Dec  4 18:01:23 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:01:23 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <a05010401ba139c611c77@[35.12.19.52]>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.130123.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I wonder if middle and high schools teach typing skills anymore--for the
typewriter or the computer?  It was required in my day, but it may not be
anymore.  I've seen a lot of students use two fingers, though they've
become very fast (my son too).

At 06:55 AM 12/4/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>I too am digitally challenged in the typing world (although I note an
>occasional semiconscious activation of the digit "4" - right hand
>only - for the "right arrow" key, seldom paralleled by "4" on the
>left hand for "Tab," Caps Lock," and "Shift" which would seem
>reasonable), and I am also of arnold's generation, with even slightly
>greater length to my tooth, but arnold did give a "pretty" hedge to
>his "old."
>
>dInIs
>
>
>allan metcalf asks:
>  >Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
>  >typing" with?
>
>not entirely true.  i am such a two-fingered typist.  but then i'm
>pretty old.
>
>where and when do people learn touch-typing these days?  it does
>seem to be pretty much universal among college kids in the u.s.
>or at least the ones i see.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>740 Wells Hall A
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>Office - (517) 353-0740
>Fax - (517) 432-2736


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Dec  4 18:21:03 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:21:03 -0600
Subject: Query: Origin of "How come?"
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.122103.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I've received a query about the origin of the expression "How
come?" as in "How come nobody thought of calling home?"

    I assume "How come?" arose by shortening from "How does/did it
come about that...?" Or am I missing something here?

Gerald Cohen


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Wed Dec  4 18:40:25 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:40:25 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.134025.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Frank Abate writes,

  >> Same kind of thing is happening re dial telephones (and the word
"dial"
  >> re use of telephones), glass milk bottles (now in antique stores here,
  >> though still in daily use in the UK), inkwells...Typewriters may soon
  >> join that list...

Not, I think, the same kind of thing.

Telephones are still very much around; we just (mostly) no longer dial them
(I have one dial instrument left in my house).

Typewriters' numbers, on the other hand, are diminishing (although I've
still got my Correcting Selectric II)--but we still use the same inputting
skill on our computer keyboards. Unlike dialing, it's still done--and
apparently more kids than ever are learning it. With all their fingers.

So what do you call it? The kids, Allan reported, just call it "typing."
Most of the grownups I know do, too. Even though there's no longer *type*
attached to, or moved by, the keys.

--Dodi Schultz


From kf0z at N0RXD.AMPR.ORG  Thu Dec  5 00:29:21 2002
From: kf0z at N0RXD.AMPR.ORG (Jan)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 19:29:21 -0500
Subject: Obsolete Term: Touch typing
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.192921.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I learned in 1959 on a Royal typewriter with blank keys.

Nowadays my kids and my wife's students universally refer to it as "keyboarding"
Touch typing would be taken to be something done by blind persons, I suspect.

--Jan


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Dec  4 19:30:39 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:30:39 -0500
Subject: "dialing" (was Re: Obsolete term: touch typing)
In-Reply-To: <200212041340_MC3-1-1E2D-E0B2@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.143039.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Dodi Schultz wrote:

#Telephones are still very much around; we just (mostly) no longer dial
#them (I have one dial instrument left in my house).

I think I still say "dial" a number. Why not?

-- Mark A. Mandel


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Dec  4 19:39:46 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:39:46 -0800
Subject: "dialing" (was Re: Obsolete term: touch typing)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212041430040.77706779-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.113946.0800.>

> #Telephones are still very much around; we just (mostly) no
> longer dial
> #them (I have one dial instrument left in my house).
>
> I think I still say "dial" a number. Why not?

I believe that the original point was that the retronym "dial telephone" and
its counterpart the "touch-tone telephone" are no longer in widespread use.
It has simply gone back to the original "telephone" without modifier. The
verb "to dial" is alive and well, as witnessed by those annoying Carrot-top
"dial down the middle" commercials--which is an interesting phrase in and of
itself.


From AnneR at HKUSA.COM  Wed Dec  4 19:50:32 2002
From: AnneR at HKUSA.COM (Anne Rogers)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:50:32 -0600
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.135032.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There still seem to be a lot of people who use the two-fingered "hunt and
peck" method, which was how my typing teacher in high school referred to it.
She warned us that we'd never type faster than 35-40 wpm if we didn't learn
to touch type -- the benchmark to pass a standard typing test (and the
class) was 55 or 60 wpm, I believe.

I've often wondered if they still teach typing in high school (or earlier?)
because there do seem to be a lot of kids who know how -- or maybe they all
learned on Mavis Beacon software!

Anne Rogers

-----Original Message-----
From: Arnold Zwicky [mailto:zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU]
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: Obsolete term: touch typing


allan metcalf asks:
 >Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
 >typing" with?

not entirely true.  i am such a two-fingered typist.  but then i'm
pretty old.

where and when do people learn touch-typing these days?  it does
seem to be pretty much universal among college kids in the u.s.
or at least the ones i see.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Dec  4 19:57:40 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:57:40 -0500
Subject: Query: Origin of "How come?"
In-Reply-To: <p04310101ba13f540a05c@[131.151.65.40]>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.145740.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, I would guess it comes from "How come you to (they to, etc...)"
before do-support took over in English. (Then you don't have to
propose so much funny deletion).

dInIs



   I've received a query about the origin of the expression "How
come?" as in "How come nobody thought of calling home?"

    I assume "How come?" arose by shortening from "How does/did it
come about that...?" Or am I missing something here?

Gerald Cohen

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Dec  4 23:07:56 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:07:56 -0800
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.150756.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Of course they do--it's usually called 'keyboarding.'  The class for many is totally unnecessary, as most students already have had considerable experience typing. When I was in high school--before the Great Age of Computers, virtually no young man took typing.  It was a 'girl thing.'
Fritz

>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 12/04/02 10:01AM >>>
I wonder if middle and high schools teach typing skills anymore--for the
typewriter or the computer?  It was required in my day, but it may not be
anymore.  I've seen a lot of students use two fingers, though they've
become very fast (my son too).

At 06:55 AM 12/4/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>I too am digitally challenged in the typing world (although I note an
>occasional semiconscious activation of the digit "4" - right hand
>only - for the "right arrow" key, seldom paralleled by "4" on the
>left hand for "Tab," Caps Lock," and "Shift" which would seem
>reasonable), and I am also of arnold's generation, with even slightly
>greater length to my tooth, but arnold did give a "pretty" hedge to
>his "old."
>
>dInIs
>
>
>allan metcalf asks:
>  >Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
>  >typing" with?
>
>not entirely true.  i am such a two-fingered typist.  but then i'm
>pretty old.
>
>where and when do people learn touch-typing these days?  it does
>seem to be pretty much universal among college kids in the u.s.
>or at least the ones i see.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>740 Wells Hall A
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>Office - (517) 353-0740
>Fax - (517) 432-2736


From sbmorr01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Wed Dec  4 23:25:38 2002
From: sbmorr01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Stephani Hardin)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:25:38 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.182538.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a remark in
class that has bothered me to this day.  He said, "Some of you in here speak
with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think seriously about
working on changing it if you want to teach English."  I find this to be both
offensive and judgmental.  An accent has no bearing on accepted forms of
speech.  (I use the word 'accepted' rather than 'correct', because on whose
standards do we even judge forms of speech)  To ask someone to change an accent
is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we all, regardless of where we
are from, have one.  This Professor displays a preference for one accent over
another, and he suggests I change something that is a part of who I am.  Why
should I compromise my heritage to suit the standards of someone with
linguistic prejudices?

Stephani Hardin


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec  5 01:52:17 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 20:52:17 -0500
Subject: Brooklyn Eagle online (not until October 2003)
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.205217.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BROOKLYN EAGLE ONLINE--Unfortunately, we'll all have to wait until October 2003.  I'd like at least the EAGLE as a backup to the online NEW YORK TIMES for New York City terms.  See the attached message below...Continuing note to Rupert Murdoch:  How about an online NEW YORK POST?

YANIGAN--The New Castle (PA) Quakers were called Yanigans for the 1899 season.  I'll research the PA newspapers (INQUIRER and PUBLIC LEDGER) for the spring of 1894 and 1895 tomorrow.

BETTER RED/DEAD THAN DEAD/RED--I just checked the online TIMES OF LONDON.  From 14 November 1958, pg. 13, col. F, "The slogan 'better red than dead' has no appeal for him.  "Better dead than red" is the headline in 14 August 1961, pg. 6, col. A.

LEBKUCHEN--Expect a really great 1850 "lebkuchen" tomorrow, from PICTURES OF NUREMBERG.  I had copied half of the recipe when the NYPL closed today.

FECKLESS--Today's NEW YORK SUN uses "feckless" in its editorial about the NEW YORK TIMES.  This comes on the heels of the multiple use of "simulacrum."  One "hegemony" and I've had enough.


Subj:
Brooklyn Eagle Online
  Date:
12/4/2002 5:11:23 PM Eastern Standard Time
  From:
Click here to send a message."Holland, Joy" <J.Holland at BrooklynPublicLibrary.org>
  To:
Click here to send a message."'Bapopik at aol.com'" <Bapopik at aol.com>
  Cc:
Click here to send a message."Benz, Susan" <S.Benz at BrooklynPublicLibrary.org>
  Sent from the Internet (Details)


Dear Mr Popik:
The Eagle Online will not be made widely available to the public until
October 2003. Do you know that the current phase of the project covers only
the years 1841-1902? We do not currently have funding to go beyond that
date.

The product is currently undergoing beta-testing. If you would like to be
one of our testers--which would allow you to have advance access to the
database--please let me know.
Sincerely,
Joy Holland
Project Director
Eagle Online


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Dec  5 01:52:53 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 19:52:53 -0600
Subject: Yanigans--two more items from 19cBB discussion group
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.195253.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Below my signoff are two items on baseball Yanigans sent today to
the 19th Century Baseball discussion group.

Gerald Cohen


To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
From: "marty payne" <martyp at toad.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 17:21:27 -0500
Subject: [19cBB] yanigans


In 1897 the Baltimore Orioles sponsored a team called the Yanigans.
They were composed of the Oriole non roster reserve players and "a
few other choice professionals" from the Baltimore area.  They were
often managed by Wilbert Robinson.  They toured the area playing
against city and rural semi pro teams.  The purpose was to keep their
non roster players sharp in case they were needed.

                                                 Marty Payne


***********


To: <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
From: "Peter Morris" <moxbib at voyager.net>
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:28:43 -0500
Subject: RE: [19cBB] yanigans
Reply-To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com

In the Grand Rapids (MI) Herald of May 24, 1903, Frank Kitson gave this
explanation of the term's origin: "in 1896 when Ned Hanlon had his old
Baltimore Orioles, we went to Macon, Ga., for our training trip.  Wilbert
Robinson, the chunky Baltimore catcher, was picked by Hanlon to captain the
Colts' team.  That year we had a bunch of youngsters who were very fast, but
Hanlon did not think well of them and the day before the practice there was
all sorts of 'kidding' around the hotel about 'Robbie's' team.  Baltimore
had her old-time team [including John McGraw, 'Wee Willie' Keeler, Hugh
Jennings, Joe Kelley, 'Steve' Brodie, etc.] . . . 'Robbie' had for his
players a bunch of youngsters, seven of whom were either pitchers or
catchers.  I played second base and what we did to the regulars was a
plenty.  We beat them 19 to 4 and that night 'Robbie' was so tickled, the
little old American house in Macon would not hold him.
        "Hanlon naturally was sore and when 'Robbie' came from the
diningroom he
laughingly said to Hanlon: 'You have a h--l of a nice team.  Even my
Yanigans can beat you.'  'What's the Yanigans?' asked Hanlon.  'That's my
kid team in Baltimore,' was the reply. 'They're only 14 years old.' ...
'Y-a-n-i-g-a-n-s - Yanigans,' mused Hanlon.  'Yanigans, that's a pretty good
name for a practice team.'  And from that day to this all the younger
players who work against the regulars during training trips are called
'Yanigans.' "

Peter Morris

>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: marty payne [mailto:martyp at toad.net]
>  Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 5:21 PM
>  To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
>  Subject: [19cBB] yanigans
>
>
>  In 1897 the Baltimore Orioles sponsored a team called the
>  Yanigans.  They were composed of the Oriole non roster reserve
>  players and "a few other choice professionals" from the Baltimore
>  area.  They were often managed by Wilbert Robinson.  They toured
>  the area playing against city and rural semi pro teams.  The
>  purpose was to keep their non roster players sharp in case they
>  were needed.
>
>                                                  Marty Payne
>
>
>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>  In order to unsubscribe, send any message (even a blank) to
>      19cBB-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>


In order to unsubscribe, send any message (even a blank) to
     19cBB-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec  5 02:08:36 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:08:36 -0500
Subject: Pen-pen merger
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212041049190.14588-100000@ptah.u.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.210836.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:58 AM -0700 12/4/02, Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>Larry,
>
>         I also have the merger "stem" and "strength". It was only a few
>years ago that I learned that anyone pronounced an /E/ in "friend" (thanks
>to Gordon for mentioning that), since I have to rely on spelling to guess
>which phoneme differentiators use. (Of course, this sometimes results in a
>hyper-form for "English" for some Southerners.) I was listening to a talk
>on morphology once by a colleague from New Jersey, and was bothered that
>he seemed to have a non-English accent in his pronunciation, so I started
>focusing on that, and soon realized that it was the high frequency of the
>term "stem", with /E/, that created that impression for me.
>
>         Rudy

Thanks, Rudy.  (And thanks to Gordon for the previous message.)  I'll
relay these to my student, who I'm sure will be appreciative of the
suggestions, examples, and references.  He actually gave "English"
(the fact that he uses an [I] there) as an instance of the merger in
his own Mississippian variety, and I assured him that we New Yorkers
and other pin/pen distinguishers, also have an [I] in "English".

larry


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Thu Dec  5 02:32:23 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:32:23 -0500
Subject: Query: Origin of "How come?"
In-Reply-To: <a05010406ba140e4fdc3f@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.213223.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In SE Michigan and NW Ohio there is also the variant "How's come ..."
Either this is an analogical development along Gerald's line after the
do-support take-over, or the expession is of more recent origin.  I suspect
the former.

Herb


Well, I would guess it comes from "How come you to (they to, etc...)"
before do-support took over in English. (Then you don't have to
propose so much funny deletion).

dInIs



   I've received a query about the origin of the expression "How
come?" as in "How come nobody thought of calling home?"

    I assume "How come?" arose by shortening from "How does/did it
come about that...?" Or am I missing something here?

Gerald Cohen

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec  5 02:42:14 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:42:14 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <2E8440B99F0D1B4F9D4F3099A3778FB501295575@exchange4.hkusa.com>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.214214.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just consulted with a native informant, my high school senior
daughter, who is in fact about to take "Computer 1a" this spring.
When my son took the identical course a few years ago, it was called
"Keyboarding".  Maybe the confusion with the musical keyboard led to
the name change, but now it sounds as though it ought to cover other
computer skills (using the internet, upgrading your hard drive,
hacking the Pentagon's system, etc.) instead of...well, touch typing.
The same, or a similar, course here used to be called "Word
Processing", she says.  In each case, students are basically learning
what we (or some of us) learned in our Typing classes, including the
format of business letters.  (I even took the New York State Regents
exam in Typing.)  I fondly recall learning to type faster and faster
to the background of Mozart's Turkish Rondo, a practice probably no
longer employed in such courses.  Maybe they use rap now.

As far as "touch typing" goes, she knew what it means although she
doesn't know how to do it yet (of course if she did, there'd be no
point in her taking the class), but she uses all ten fingers while
peeking, which constitutes an intermediate stage.  I know I went
directly from the hunt-and-peck two-finger method to full touch
typing, but then that was back when there was no incentive to type
quickly outside of school (as there is now to send your friends
infinite numbers of instant messages).

And as far as school requirements go, the local high school requires
a "practical arts" course which can be satisfied by
Keyboarding/Computer 1a or by Cooking.  I'm not sure what the other
options are--something in basic electronics, I believe.  And no, the
others aren't categorized as "impractical arts".

larry


At 1:50 PM -0600 12/4/02, Anne Rogers wrote:
>There still seem to be a lot of people who use the two-fingered "hunt and
>peck" method, which was how my typing teacher in high school referred to it.
>She warned us that we'd never type faster than 35-40 wpm if we didn't learn
>to touch type -- the benchmark to pass a standard typing test (and the
>class) was 55 or 60 wpm, I believe.
>
>I've often wondered if they still teach typing in high school (or earlier?)
>because there do seem to be a lot of kids who know how -- or maybe they all
>learned on Mavis Beacon software!
>
>Anne Rogers
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Arnold Zwicky [mailto:zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU]
>Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 9:15 PM
>Subject: Re: Obsolete term: touch typing
>
>
>allan metcalf asks:
>  >Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left, to contrast "touch
>  >typing" with?
>
>not entirely true.  i am such a two-fingered typist.  but then i'm
>pretty old.
>
>where and when do people learn touch-typing these days?  it does
>seem to be pretty much universal among college kids in the u.s.
>or at least the ones i see.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Dec  5 02:42:30 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 20:42:30 -0600
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.204230.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

While I agree with the overall sentiment expressed, I think it's inaccurate (or wishful thinking) to claim that accent has NO bearing on the acceptance of one's speech. I think people are as willing to pass judgment on a person's character, intelligence, etc. based on that person's accent as on his/her/their grammar - at least that's the case with certain accents. 

Nevertheless, such judgments can work both ways. Couldn't it be argued that for a teacher in KY, a local accent might be a benefit? How would students and parents react to someone who comes from KY but sounds like they come from some place like Michigan (which is, of course, the source of the Network English accent; if you don't believe it, just ask the Michiganders.)

-----Original Message-----
From:   Stephani Hardin [mailto:sbmorr01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU]
Sent:   Wed 12/4/2002 5:25 PM
To:     ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Cc:	
Subject:             Teaching With a Kentucky Accent

In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a remark in
class that has bothered me to this day.  He said, "Some of you in here speak
with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think seriously about
working on changing it if you want to teach English."  I find this to be both
offensive and judgmental.  An accent has no bearing on accepted forms of
speech.  (I use the word 'accepted' rather than 'correct', because on whose
standards do we even judge forms of speech)  To ask someone to change an accent
is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we all, regardless of where we
are from, have one.  This Professor displays a preference for one accent over
another, and he suggests I change something that is a part of who I am.  Why
should I compromise my heritage to suit the standards of someone with
linguistic prejudices?

Stephani Hardin


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Thu Dec  5 02:44:59 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 20:44:59 -0600
Subject: Query: Origin of "How come?"
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.204459.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In support of Dennis' suggestion, a quick search on the LION (Literature Online) database shows the form to be fairly common in Early Modern English (before we were burdened with do-support).

-----Original Message-----
From:   Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU]
Sent:   Wed 12/4/2002 1:57 PM
To:     ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Cc:	
Subject:             Re: Query: Origin of "How come?"

Well, I would guess it comes from "How come you to (they to, etc...)"
before do-support took over in English. (Then you don't have to
propose so much funny deletion).

dInIs



   I've received a query about the origin of the expression "How
come?" as in "How come nobody thought of calling home?"

    I assume "How come?" arose by shortening from "How does/did it
come about that...?" Or am I missing something here?

Gerald Cohen

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Thu Dec  5 03:18:23 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 22:18:23 -0500
Subject: "dialing" (was Re: Obsolete term: touch typing)
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.221823.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark Mandel writes,

  >> I think I still say "dial" a number. Why not?

No reason! Did anyone suggest that you mustn't?

--DS


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec  5 03:22:14 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 22:22:14 -0500
Subject: Santa Claus Rally (1969 or 1976); Black Friday (1975)
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.222214.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SANTA CLAUS RALLY

   I had posted previously that "Santa Claus rally" was allegedly coined by Yale Hirsch.  Here's what the online, full text WALL STREET JOURNAL has.

   13 Decemer 1969, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. 52:
   Even without this factor, year-end rallies between Christmas and New Year's have been scarce in recent years.  In the 1970 Stock Trader's ALmanac available at book stores here, Yale Hirsch traces year-end market trends and a wide variety of other statistical trends at various points during the year.

   23 December 1976, WALL STREET JOURNAL, pg. 19:
   "I think the year-end Santa Claus rally commenced on Tuesday," commented Alfred E. Goldman, vice president of A. G. Edwards & Sons Inc.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
BLACK FRIDAY

   29 November 1975, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 21:
   Philadelphia police and bus drivers call it "Black Friday"--that day each year between Thanksgiving Day and the Army-Navy game.  It is the busiest shopping and traffic day of the year in the Bicentennial City as the Christmas list is checked off and the Eastern college football season nears conclusion.


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Thu Dec  5 03:27:43 2002
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:27:43 -0600
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.212743.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think you might have taken that as pure career advice if he had qualified
it by saying "...teach English somewhere other than Eastern Kentucky."
Rather than changing, why not plan to add an accent (middle American
newsreader probably would go most places) appropriate to where you plan to
teach (assuming you do)?  Accents are one of the things we use to type
people we don't know well.  I was scared away from trying to use German for
years after having my accent identified as that of a Bavarian homosexual.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephani Hardin" <sbmorr01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>


In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a remark
in
class that has bothered me to this day.  He said, "Some of you in here speak
with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think seriously about
working on changing it if you want to teach English."


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec  5 03:49:46 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 19:49:46 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <028c01c29c0e$46ab45a0$615f12d0@dwhause>
Message-ID: <WED.4.DEC.2002.194946.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Dave Hause wrote:

> I think you might have taken that as pure career advice if he had
qualified it by saying "...teach English somewhere other than Eastern
Kentucky."

The point about career advice is well taken. I begin the first day of a
class here by telling, oh, the first minute or so of Jerry Clower's
Mississippi Coon Hunt. Then, just after I've talked about havin' a rat
killin' ("If I'm lyin', I'm dyin'"), I interrupt myself and tell the
students in my real version of standard academic English that it was, in
fact, all a big lie. Then they're to talk among themselves about that
crucial initial impression they had of me and, as part of their homework,
to write a short piece about their reaction for the next class. Most admit
to wondering how anyone with an accent like that could be teaching in
college, and some say they immediately assumed I was a racist redneck. (I
did ask for absolute honesty, incidentally.)  "American Tongues," which we
see later in the course, reminds them of that first day when they were all
caught with their prejudices a-flyin'. That video, as you'll all remember,
has a nice section devoted to the extra mile that a speaker with a heavy
Southern--or Brooklyn--accent must walk in order to reach the starting
line for a responsible position. It's a tough lesson, not soon forgotten.

Peter R.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec  5 06:52:26 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 01:52:26 -0500
Subject: Jalapeno Poppers (1992); Hairs of Angels (1912)
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.015226.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

JALAPENO POPPERS

   OED has "jalapeno" from 1949; Merriam-Webster has 1939. Nothing on the American Periodical Series.  NEW YORK TIMES full text has nothing when I checked pre-1960! I'll try to beat that later today with Henry Howard Harper's A JOURNEY IN SOUTHEASTERN MEXICO: NARRATIVE OF EXPERIENCES AND OBSERVATIONS ON AGRICULTURAL AND INDUSTRIAL CONDITIONS (1910).  If it's not missing, that is.
   Emeril is now featuring "jalapeno poppers" (www.foodtv.com).  I've seen this around a lot, but it's a trademarked name.  See below:

Word Mark JALAPENO POPPERS
Goods and Services IC 029. US 046. G & S: processed vegetables. FIRST USE: 19920105. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19920105
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 74270714
Filing Date April 30, 1992
Published for Opposition May 25, 1993
Registration Number 1788303
Registration Date August 17, 1993
Owner (REGISTRANT) Anchor Food Products, Inc. CORPORATION WISCONSIN 555 Hickory Farm Lane Appleton WISCONSIN 54914
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record MARTA S LEVINE
Disclaimer NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "JALAPENO" APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).

---------------------------------------------------------------
HAIRS OF ANGELS

FAMILIAR LETTERS OF FLITTINGS 'ROUND NAPLES, CITY OF SWEET-DO-NOTHING
By An American Girl (Katherine Phelps Lynch--ed.)
New York: The Alice Harriman Company
1912

   No "espresso."  No "pizza."  The book doesn't even have any sex.

Pg. 10:  ...gelato napolitan.

Pg. 48:  And by the way, does Giovanni still make the delectable dish of _pasta con pomidoro_?

Pg. 66:  But _Turino_ chocolates, _carino mio_, are a something which anyone knowing their great perfection, will not allow to long lie unclaimed.

Pg. 112:  ..._gelati_...

Pg. 211:  _Fritto misto_ being a mysterious Italian dish of brains and artichokes and heaven knoweth what not!

Pg. 283:  Little towns where chains of golden _pasta_ are forever drying in the hot sun--_pasta_ in all sorts of forms and sizes running from thread-like variety called Hairs of Angels!--_Capilla degli angeli_--to great heavy tubing like a garden hose...

Pg. 302:  ...sweet _frittata_ (omelet)...
   ..._grissini_, the long crisp sticks of bread.


From scorn at PACIFIC.NET.AU  Thu Dec  5 06:59:33 2002
From: scorn at PACIFIC.NET.AU (Steve Cornelius)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:59:33 +1100
Subject: Two famous sport-related quotations
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.175933.1100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm looking for the earliest known citations for two quite famous
sport-related quotations.

The first is (something like) "Winning isn't everything - it's the only thing".

The second (a response to a [journalist's?] question "Do you believe that
[enter name of game or sport] is a matter of life and death?"), is
(something like) "No, it's more important than that".

Can any ADS-L subscriber offer evidence, or perhaps just an opinion, on
either of these? They may or may not be of American origin.

Steve Cornelius
Sydney, Australia


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec  5 10:08:38 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 05:08:38 -0500
Subject: FW: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.050838.0500.>

Stephani Hardin said:
>>
In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a remark
in
class that has bothered me to this day.  He said, "Some of you in here speak
with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think seriously about
working on changing it if you want to teach English."  I find this to be
both
offensive and judgmental.  An accent has no bearing on accepted forms of
speech.  (I use the word 'accepted' rather than 'correct', because on whose
standards do we even judge forms of speech)  To ask someone to change an
accent
is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we all, regardless of where we
are from, have one.  This Professor displays a preference for one accent
over
another, and he suggests I change something that is a part of who I am.  Why
should I compromise my heritage to suit the standards of someone with
linguistic prejudices?
<<

You were wise to take the position you did.  Stick by it.  Your prof is
absolutely WRONG.  (I would even add a swear word or two.)

How do we brook such nonsense?  And in a college classroom -- truly
appalling.

This reminds me of an incident at a DSNA meeting some years ago.  A young
scholar was addressing the meeting (at DSNA, all papers are "plenary"),
perhaps 80 folks were in the auditorium.  In the course of his paper he said
something "incorrect" (perhaps it was hopefully).  He paused and sheepishly
apologized for using this frowned-upon word.  At the end of his paper he sat
down, and Sidney Landau, who was moderating that session, got up to intro
the next speaker.  But first he made a comment to the effect that if there
is ANY group of people in America where one can pretty much speak as they
please, and with impunity, it is the DSNA.  Truer words were never spoken at
a DSNA -- we DSNAers are all (well, most of us, anyway) language liberals.
(I'm a radical -- I believe that everything is OK as to one's idiolect and
regional dialect.)

One should be aware of the potential reaction of given audience members.  On
the radio, yes, many people will think that an Eastern KY accent sounds
ill-educated.  Too bad for them, but they will still think that.  You can,
however, win (many of) them over by saying good, smart, sensible things, no
matter what the accent.

Frank Abate


From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Thu Dec  5 11:44:02 2002
From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:44:02 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021204193354.19665T-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.064402.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Dave Hause wrote:
>
> > I think you might have taken that as pure career advice if he had
> qualified it by saying "...teach English somewhere other than Eastern
> Kentucky."
>

How would we react to this statement if accent were replaced by sex or race?
Surely, language is intrinsically part of identify as much as, if not more
than, either sex or race.

Rather than career advice, I find the comment to be overt discrimination, which
should be challenged every time it raises its ugly head.  Bravo, Stephani!

BTW, I thought Network Standard was Canadian. Or Texan.  Or Nebraskan.


**************************
Terry Lynn Irons


From maggie37_62 at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  5 14:23:22 2002
From: maggie37_62 at HOTMAIL.COM (Margaret Blankenship)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:23:22 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.092322.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Stephani,
I have to also say that your professor was wrong to expect people to cahnge
what is a part of who they are. Where has he/she come from that he thinks
his accent is far superior to anyone else's. That is what is wrong with our
society today, people are always so quick to judge others by an accent, sex,
religion or culture. It is ridiculous to say the least. Stephanie you stick
to your guns and tell your professor maybe they should not be teaching
because of prejidices.
Margaret Blankenship






>From: Stephani Hardin <sbmorr01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:25:38 -0500
>
>In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a remark
>in
>class that has bothered me to this day.  He said, "Some of you in here
>speak
>with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think seriously about
>working on changing it if you want to teach English."  I find this to be
>both
>offensive and judgmental.  An accent has no bearing on accepted forms of
>speech.  (I use the word 'accepted' rather than 'correct', because on whose
>standards do we even judge forms of speech)  To ask someone to change an
>accent
>is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we all, regardless of where
>we
>are from, have one.  This Professor displays a preference for one accent
>over
>another, and he suggests I change something that is a part of who I am.
>Why
>should I compromise my heritage to suit the standards of someone with
>linguistic prejudices?
>
>Stephani Hardin


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec  5 14:35:17 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:35:17 -0500
Subject: Two famous sport-related quotations
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021205175106.00a58550@po.pacific.net.au>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.093517.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:59 PM +1100 12/5/02, Steve Cornelius wrote:
>I'm looking for the earliest known citations for two quite famous
>sport-related quotations.
>
>The first is (something like) "Winning isn't everything - it's the
>only thing".
>
Did you check the ads-l archives for this one?  We had a long thread
on this one a few years back, beginning with the debunking of the
Vince Lombardi attribution and then locating a coach constituting
another possible source (I believe a southern college football coach)
for whom there is some actual corroboration.

Larry


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Dec  5 14:38:46 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:38:46 EST
Subject: Two famous sport-related quotations
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.093846.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/5/02 2:17:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
scorn at PACIFIC.NET.AU writes:

> "Winning isn't everything - it's the only thing"

Attributed to George Allen, who coached the Washington Redskins in the
National Football League in the 1970's, but I wouldn't bet any money that
Allen originated it.

It is not widely known how much of a debt this country owes to George Allen.
I lived in Washington during Watergate and I assure you it was not too much
of an exaggeration to say that only pride in Allen and his overachieving
Redskins kept Washington DC functioning during those ill-starred years.

        - Jim Landau


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Dec  5 14:49:53 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 06:49:53 -0800
Subject: Which and Falaqa
In-Reply-To: <a05010402ba13c0fcb183@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.064953.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis,

The "wh" isn't a borrowing - as I see it- so the
spelling and pronunciation have evolved and diverged
as part of the development of the English language.

Yes, I think Goethe is an example of a similar
affectation: I guess no one could decide whether to
simply pronounce it in English as the spelling "Gothe"
would indicate, or to render an approximation such as
"Gutta" or "Gurtta", so a confusing semi-german
spelling was choosen and we were left to stumble over
the pronunciation!

But my main point with the Arabic "q" is that it
becomes either an English "k" or "g", it never is what
Tom Harrison describes in another post as a "...velar
stop that is farther back than the one that occurs in
English and is not phonetically conditioned, as is the
English "k" sound."  The letter "q" doesn't exist in
Arabic, the Arabic sound doesn't exist in English but
is approximated by "k" or "g" when speaking, so why
use "q" to represent a "k" or "g" sound when writing?

"Koran" is seen as "Q'run" more frequently.  We still
write and speak of "Kuwait", but on the other hand, it
has been "Iraq" for as long as I remember.


--- "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU> wrote:
> Why the affectation of "wh" in "who," "why,"
> "which," whether,"
> etc...? Why the affectation of "oe" in Goethe? Are
> all spellings
> which do not phonemically represent English (leaving
> the question
> which English aside since Michigan English is
> obviously to be
> preferred) pronunciations affectations?
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
> >More generic than just "falaqa", actually.  Why do
> we
> >use "q" instead of "k" in rendering Arabic into
> >English?  Why Qatar, which I've heard pronounced on
> >the BBC news as more like "gutar" or even "gutter",
> >instead of Katar?  The sound in Arabic is
> presumably
> >distinct from the English "k" sound, but it usually
> >becomes simply "k" in English, whether the "q" or
> "k"
> >is used to represent it.  If it's closer to "g"
> than
> >"k", why not use the "g"?  Why this seeming
> >affectation for "q" in English rendering or
> borrowing
> >of Arabic?
> >
> >
> >=====
> >James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches
> anything
> >South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will
> be sued
> >jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act
> quickly and decisively
> >                                |or slowly and
> cautiously.
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>       Asian & African Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> phone: (517) 353-9290



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec  5 14:55:04 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:55:04 -0500
Subject: Two famous sport-related quotations
In-Reply-To: <44.2a4fdf80.2b20bef6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.095504.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:38 AM -0500 12/5/02, James A. Landau wrote:
>In a message dated 12/5/02 2:17:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>scorn at PACIFIC.NET.AU writes:
>
>>  "Winning isn't everything - it's the only thing"
>
>Attributed to George Allen, who coached the Washington Redskins in the
>National Football League in the 1970's, but I wouldn't bet any money that
>Allen originated it.
>
>It is not widely known how much of a debt this country owes to George Allen.
>I lived in Washington during Watergate and I assure you it was not too much
>of an exaggeration to say that only pride in Allen and his overachieving

and "over the hill"

>Redskins kept Washington DC functioning during those ill-starred years.
>
It definitely predated George Allen (even in his L. A. Rams years,
much less his Redskin years), and Lombardi as well.

Larry


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Thu Dec  5 14:51:44 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:51:44 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021204193354.19665T-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.095144.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As offensive as attitudes' like this professor's are, they are legal, as are
the prejudicial actions that are taken on the basis of them. Rosina
Lippi-Greene makes this point eloquently in her book English with an Accent.
Accent and dialect are two of the few remaining areas of public activity in
which discrimination is still not just legal but licensed by court
decisions.  It's not just attitudes we have to change.

Herb

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Peter Richardson
Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 10:50 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


On Wed, 4 Dec 2002, Dave Hause wrote:

> I think you might have taken that as pure career advice if he had
qualified it by saying "...teach English somewhere other than Eastern
Kentucky."

The point about career advice is well taken. I begin the first day of a
class here by telling, oh, the first minute or so of Jerry Clower's
Mississippi Coon Hunt. Then, just after I've talked about havin' a rat
killin' ("If I'm lyin', I'm dyin'"), I interrupt myself and tell the
students in my real version of standard academic English that it was, in
fact, all a big lie. Then they're to talk among themselves about that
crucial initial impression they had of me and, as part of their homework,
to write a short piece about their reaction for the next class. Most admit
to wondering how anyone with an accent like that could be teaching in
college, and some say they immediately assumed I was a racist redneck. (I
did ask for absolute honesty, incidentally.)  "American Tongues," which we
see later in the course, reminds them of that first day when they were all
caught with their prejudices a-flyin'. That video, as you'll all remember,
has a nice section devoted to the extra mile that a speaker with a heavy
Southern--or Brooklyn--accent must walk in order to reach the starting
line for a responsible position. It's a tough lesson, not soon forgotten.

Peter R.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Dec  5 14:54:37 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:54:37 -0600
Subject: "Yanigans" -- another message from 19cBB discussion group
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.085437.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Below my signoff is another message on baseball Yanigans from the
19th Century Baseball discussion group.

Gerald Cohen


To: "'19cBB at yahoogroups.com '" <19cBB at yahoogroups.com>
From: "Ball, David (BALLDW)" <BALLDW at UCMAIL.UC.EDU>
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 23:38:03 -0500
Subject: RE: [19cBB] yanigans
Reply-To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com


Long ago, in a galaxy far away, I remember reading that the term was coined
by Jerry Denny when he played for Providence.  I have no idea what the
source was, but if it's right -- or if it was in use at all at that time --
the term would be pushed back to the early or middle 1880's.

This is a stretch, but it strikes me that Denny, though he grew up in
California, was obviously playing in New England when he was with
Providence.  Steve Brady, the putative friend of Con Yannigan and Denny's
older contemporary, was also a New Englander, and likewise Wilbert Robinson.
On the other hand, I see that Frank Kitson, who seems to have been unaware
of the term until he heard it from Robinson, was from Michigan.  Of course,
I'll have to admit that Ned Hanlon, who also seems not to have heard of it,
was yet another New Englander.  Still, maybe New England is the place to
look for the origin of the word?

David Ball

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Morris
To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12/4/02 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: [19cBB] yanigans

In the Grand Rapids (MI) Herald of May 24, 1903, Frank Kitson gave this
explanation of the term's origin: "in 1896 when Ned Hanlon had his old
Baltimore Orioles, we went to Macon, Ga., for our training trip.
Wilbert
Robinson, the chunky Baltimore catcher, was picked by Hanlon to captain
the
Colts' team.  That year we had a bunch of youngsters who were very fast,
but
Hanlon did not think well of them and the day before the practice there
was
all sorts of 'kidding' around the hotel about 'Robbie's' team.
Baltimore
had her old-time team [including John McGraw, 'Wee Willie' Keeler, Hugh
Jennings, Joe Kelley, 'Steve' Brodie, etc.] . . . 'Robbie' had for his
players a bunch of youngsters, seven of whom were either pitchers or
catchers.  I played second base and what we did to the regulars was a
plenty.  We beat them 19 to 4 and that night 'Robbie' was so tickled,
the
little old American house in Macon would not hold him.
        "Hanlon naturally was sore and when 'Robbie' came from the
diningroom he
laughingly said to Hanlon: 'You have a h--l of a nice team.  Even my
Yanigans can beat you.'  'What's the Yanigans?' asked Hanlon.  'That's
my
kid team in Baltimore,' was the reply. 'They're only 14 years old.' ...
'Y-a-n-i-g-a-n-s - Yanigans,' mused Hanlon.  'Yanigans, that's a pretty
good
name for a practice team.'  And from that day to this all the younger
players who work against the regulars during training trips are called
'Yanigans.' "

Peter Morris

>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: marty payne [mailto:martyp at toad.net]
>  Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 5:21 PM
>  To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
>  Subject: [19cBB] yanigans
>
>
>  In 1897 the Baltimore Orioles sponsored a team called the
>  Yanigans.  They were composed of the Oriole non roster reserve
>  players and "a few other choice professionals" from the Baltimore
>  area.  They were often managed by Wilbert Robinson.  They toured
>  the area playing against city and rural semi pro teams.  The
>  purpose was to keep their non roster players sharp in case they
>  were needed.
>
>                                                  Marty Payne
>
>
>  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


From THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU  Thu Dec  5 15:00:35 2002
From: THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:00:35 -0500
Subject: Which and Falaqa
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.100035.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I defer to one who clearly knows more about it than I do.

But now that I think about it, the alternate voiced and voiceless stops used
in transliteration suggest that the issue is not placement or voice, but
aspiration--that is, that the sound in question is a voiceless but
unaspirated stop, so that English speakers can't quite decide whether it is
a "k" or a "g."

Similar issues arise in the competing transliterations of Chinese.

Thom Harrison


-----Original Message-----
From: James Smith [mailto:jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM]
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:50 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Which and Falaqa


Dennis,

The "wh" isn't a borrowing - as I see it- so the
spelling and pronunciation have evolved and diverged
as part of the development of the English language.

Yes, I think Goethe is an example of a similar
affectation: I guess no one could decide whether to
simply pronounce it in English as the spelling "Gothe"
would indicate, or to render an approximation such as
"Gutta" or "Gurtta", so a confusing semi-german
spelling was choosen and we were left to stumble over
the pronunciation!

But my main point with the Arabic "q" is that it
becomes either an English "k" or "g", it never is what
Tom Harrison describes in another post as a "...velar
stop that is farther back than the one that occurs in
English and is not phonetically conditioned, as is the
English "k" sound."  The letter "q" doesn't exist in
Arabic, the Arabic sound doesn't exist in English but
is approximated by "k" or "g" when speaking, so why
use "q" to represent a "k" or "g" sound when writing?

"Koran" is seen as "Q'run" more frequently.  We still
write and speak of "Kuwait", but on the other hand, it
has been "Iraq" for as long as I remember.


--- "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU> wrote:
> Why the affectation of "wh" in "who," "why,"
> "which," whether,"
> etc...? Why the affectation of "oe" in Goethe? Are
> all spellings
> which do not phonemically represent English (leaving
> the question
> which English aside since Michigan English is
> obviously to be
> preferred) pronunciations affectations?
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
> >More generic than just "falaqa", actually.  Why do
> we
> >use "q" instead of "k" in rendering Arabic into
> >English?  Why Qatar, which I've heard pronounced on
> >the BBC news as more like "gutar" or even "gutter",
> >instead of Katar?  The sound in Arabic is
> presumably
> >distinct from the English "k" sound, but it usually
> >becomes simply "k" in English, whether the "q" or
> "k"
> >is used to represent it.  If it's closer to "g"
> than
> >"k", why not use the "g"?  Why this seeming
> >affectation for "q" in English rendering or
> borrowing
> >of Arabic?
> >
> >
> >=====
> >James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches
> anything
> >South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will
> be sued
> >jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act
> quickly and decisively
> >                                |or slowly and
> cautiously.
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>       Asian & African Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> phone: (517) 353-9290



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From travishall456 at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec  5 16:02:27 2002
From: travishall456 at HOTMAIL.COM (Travis Hall)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:02:27 +0000
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.160227.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20021205/41fda3da/attachment.htm>

From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Dec  5 16:49:35 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:49:35 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <F72sJ4X0q1y9v2N3tI70000c9cf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.114935.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Since i am from north central Kentucky, I actually subtract
>23.567832, give or take a little.

dInIs



>Unfortunately for those of us with an Eastern Kentucky accent, while
>many others are thought of as sophisticated, people hear the Eastern
>Kentucky accent and subtract a couple dozen IQ points.
>
>
>
>
>Travis Scott Hall
>
>  >From: Margaret Blankenship
>  >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
>  >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>  >Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>  >Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:23:22 -0500
>  >
>  >Stephani,
>  >I have to also say that your professor was wrong to expect people to
>  >cahnge
>  >what is a part of who they are. Where has he/she come from that he
>  >thinks
>  >his accent is far superior to anyone else's. That is what is wrong
>  >with our
>  >society today, people are always so quick to judge others by an
>  >accent, sex,
>  >religion or culture. It is ridiculous to say the least. Stephanie
>  >you stick
>  >to your guns and tell your professor maybe they should not be
>  >teaching
>  >because of prejidices.
>  >Margaret Blankenship
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >>From: Stephani Hardin
>  >>Reply-To: American Dialect Society
>  >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>  >>Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>  >>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:25:38 -0500
>  >>
>  >>In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a
>  >>remark
>  >>in
>  >>class that has bothered me to this day. He said, "Some of you in
>  >>here
>  >>speak
>  >>with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think
>  >>seriously about
>  >>working on changing it if you want to teach English." I find this
>  >>to be
>  >>both
>  >>offensive and judgmental. An accent has no bearing on accepted
>  >>forms of
>  >>speech. (I use the word 'accepted' rather than 'correct', because
>  >>on whose
>  >>standards do we even judge forms of speech) To ask someone to
>  >>change an
>  >>accent
>  >>is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we all, regardless of
>  >>where
>  >>we
>  >>are from, have one. This Professor displays a preference for one
>  >>accent
>  >>over
>  >>another, and he suggests I change something that is a part of who I
>  >>am.
>  >>Why
>  >>should I compromise my heritage to suit the standards of someone
>  >>with
>  >>linguistic prejudices?
>  >>
>  >>Stephani Hardin
>  >
>  >
>  >_________________________________________________________________
>  >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
>  >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
>
><http://g.msn.com/8HMHEN/2015>the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Thu Dec  5 16:48:36 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:48:36 -0500
Subject: Two famous sport-related quotations
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.114836.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  >> "Winning isn't everything - it's the only thing"

According to Bartlett's, it's "attributed to" football coach Red Sanders
(affiliation not stated), 1953.

--DS


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec  5 17:14:12 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:14:12 -0800
Subject: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
In-Reply-To: <20021205144953.90627.qmail@web9701.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.091412.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Huh?  "Goethe" is not a "confusing semi-german spelling" that was "chosen"
by some American.  It's the way the name is actually spelled in German.
It's a foreign name, not a loanword subject to the naturalization processes
such words undergo in the recipient language.  While it would be
unreasonable to demand that no one who doesn't have a command of German
should be allowed to utter the name, it is not unreasonable to expect such
a person to approximate the German pronunciation to the best of his or her
ability.  E.g., it's reasonable to accept a syllabic "American r" as an
honest attempt to approximate the first vowel, but it's also reasonable to
expect a t, not a th, for the second consonant, since no American should
have any problem pronouncing the t in a way that's indistinguishable from
the German pronunciation.

Peter Mc.

--On Thursday, December 5, 2002 6:49 AM -0800 James Smith
<jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> Yes, I think Goethe is an example of a similar
> affectation: I guess no one could decide whether to
> simply pronounce it in English as the spelling "Gothe"
> would indicate, or to render an approximation such as
> "Gutta" or "Gurtta", so a confusing semi-german
> spelling was choosen and we were left to stumble over
> the pronunciation!



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Dec  5 18:16:56 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:16:56 -0500
Subject: Which & Falaqa w/a Kentucky accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.131656.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 There's a comic element in the parallel running of these two threads.
Which particular English are you going to aim at in respelling the sounds
of another language?
A. Murie


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec  5 18:32:31 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:32:31 -0800
Subject: Which & Falaqa w/a Kentucky accent
In-Reply-To: <l03130300ba15446eefa7@[12.107.141.208]>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.103231.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, December 5, 2002 1:16 PM -0500 sagehen
<sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:

> Which particular English are you going to aim at in respelling the sounds
> of another language?

That's easy: whichever variety distinguishes between a velar and a uvular
stop. :)

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec  5 18:36:46 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:36:46 EST
Subject: "Windy City" and today's snowstorm
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.133646.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  It's already started to snow.  The NYPL might close early, denying you a
"lebkuchen," "jalapeno" and "yanigan."  If so, I'll research them on
Saturday.  Anyway, take another "Windy City" error and keep out of the storm.

Barry Popik,
Brooklyn Eagle beta tester?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec  5 18:38:49 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:38:49 EST
Subject: "Windy City" and today's snowstorm
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.133849.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ah!  Forgot the attachment!
--B.P.


Copyright 2002 CanWest Interactive, a division of
CanWest Global Communications Corp.
All Rights Reserved
The Halifax Daily News

November 25, 2002 Monday DAILY Edition

SECTION: NEWS; Pg. 32

LENGTH: 197 words

HEADLINE: Windy City has nothing on us

BYLINE: Cindy Day

BODY:
JUST BEFORE FIVE o'clock yesterday morning, a gust of wind rolled up the hill
from the harbour and for a brief moment, I thought the roof was going to lift
off my house. I don't mind a nice warm breeze in the summer, but this cold
northwest wind isn't quite as pleasant. We're no strangers to wind here in
the Maritimes, but can you imagine what it would be like in the "Windy City?"
Well you might be surprised. Chicago's nickname is not associated with actual
windy conditions. Rather, it was given to the city by New York Sun editor
Charles Dana in 1893. Dana was sick of hearing long-winded politicians
boasting about the wonders of the World's Colombian Exposition held in
Chicago that year. It's hard to imagine that an editorial comment made more
almost 110 years ago, still stands today.

In terms of wind, Halifax, New Glasgow, Yarmouth and Sydney are all windier
than the "windy city," with average wind speeds ranging from 18 to 21 km/h.

Chicago's average wind speed is only 10 km/h. If we were to crown a Canadian
City with "windiest" honours, it would go to St. John's Nfld, with an average
wind speed of 24 km/h.

Cindy Day is a meteorologist with Global TV.

LOAD-DATE: November 25, 2002


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Thu Dec  5 18:34:42 2002
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:34:42 -0700
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.113442.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Dodi Schultz <SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM>

<snip>

: So what do you call it? The kids, Allan reported, just call it
: "typing." Most of the grownups I know do, too. Even though
: there's no longer *type* attached to, or moved by, the keys.

I have to admit that i'd *never* made any connection between the verb 'type'
and the noun 'type' referred to in the last line there. Now that i see it,
it makes perfect sense, though.

Anyway, since i was born in 1970 and thus part of what probably counts as
the leading edge of The Generation Without Typewriters<tm>, here's my take:

'Typing' is what you do with a keyboard.

'Keyboarding' is a term for 'typing' like 'sanitation engineering' is to
'trash collector'--something to make it sound less low-<insert whatever
here> than it is.

'Touch typing' is a specific kind of typing. I don't think i've ever used
the word actively (before this paragraph), but if i had to define it, i'd
define it as 'the sort of typing they teach in typing classes'. Now, of
course, lots of people (including me) learn to type without ever being
taught some specific method.

Personal experience to the point: When i was in high school, i had to type
something (using a typewriter), and i was sent to some part of the school
office where they had a typewriter i could use. I started typing
(*fast*--end of high school/beginning of college is when i was at my
personal peak for typing speed, 75-80 wpm). The typing class (which i never
took) teacher happened to be nearby. She watched me typing, and then said
"You can't type like that!" (My self-taught method has, for all intents and
purposes, no home keys, unless the spacebar counts.) I was suitably amused.

Incidentally, typewriters are still a serious necessity, even for those of
us raised with dedicated word processors and then later PCs--if you have to
fill out a pre-printed form, nothing beats a typewriter. For this reason,
all through college i found that i could guarantee a supply of devoted
friends simply by letting it be known that i owned a typewriter.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Thu Dec  5 18:54:13 2002
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:54:13 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.105413.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To all:

I don't know what to say to all of this.  I only know what my mother told me
once about her college experience, where everyone was expected to take
"speech" lessons.  The purpose of these "speech lessons" was to get some
people(specifically people from some parts of the South and from some parts
of New York)to "lose" their "accents".  Southerners at that time (and
sometimes still are) considered ill-educated and stupid in the "folklore".
The other "experience" I've had is reading about people who take "speech"
therapy so they can "lose" their accents and succeed in business.
Apparently people with "Eastern Kentucky" and other obvious "Southern"
accents aren't taken seriously in business or as TV announcers, etc.  So
prejudiced and ill-informed as this professor may be, he appears to be
coming from a long tradition. . . .
Anne G
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


> >Since i am from north central Kentucky, I actually subtract
> >23.567832, give or take a little.
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
> >Unfortunately for those of us with an Eastern Kentucky accent, while
> >many others are thought of as sophisticated, people hear the Eastern
> >Kentucky accent and subtract a couple dozen IQ points.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Travis Scott Hall
> >
> >  >From: Margaret Blankenship
> >  >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> >  >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >  >Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
> >  >Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:23:22 -0500
> >  >
> >  >Stephani,
> >  >I have to also say that your professor was wrong to expect people to
> >  >cahnge
> >  >what is a part of who they are. Where has he/she come from that he
> >  >thinks
> >  >his accent is far superior to anyone else's. That is what is wrong
> >  >with our
> >  >society today, people are always so quick to judge others by an
> >  >accent, sex,
> >  >religion or culture. It is ridiculous to say the least. Stephanie
> >  >you stick
> >  >to your guns and tell your professor maybe they should not be
> >  >teaching
> >  >because of prejidices.
> >  >Margaret Blankenship
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >>From: Stephani Hardin
> >  >>Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> >  >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >  >>Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
> >  >>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:25:38 -0500
> >  >>
> >  >>In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a
> >  >>remark
> >  >>in
> >  >>class that has bothered me to this day. He said, "Some of you in
> >  >>here
> >  >>speak
> >  >>with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think
> >  >>seriously about
> >  >>working on changing it if you want to teach English." I find this
> >  >>to be
> >  >>both
> >  >>offensive and judgmental. An accent has no bearing on accepted
> >  >>forms of
> >  >>speech. (I use the word 'accepted' rather than 'correct', because
> >  >>on whose
> >  >>standards do we even judge forms of speech) To ask someone to
> >  >>change an
> >  >>accent
> >  >>is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we all, regardless of
> >  >>where
> >  >>we
> >  >>are from, have one. This Professor displays a preference for one
> >  >>accent
> >  >>over
> >  >>another, and he suggests I change something that is a part of who I
> >  >>am.
> >  >>Why
> >  >>should I compromise my heritage to suit the standards of someone
> >  >>with
> >  >>linguistic prejudices?
> >  >>
> >  >>Stephani Hardin
> >  >
> >  >
> >  >_________________________________________________________________
> >  >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
> >  >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
> >
> >
> ><http://g.msn.com/8HMHEN/2015>the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>       Asian & African Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> phone: (517) 353-9290
>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Dec  5 19:00:19 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:00:19 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <023c01c29c8d$94c69800$0c53bb80@bowied>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.140019.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:34 AM 12/5/2002 -0700, Bowie wrote:

>Incidentally, typewriters are still a serious necessity, even for those of
>us raised with dedicated word processors and then later PCs--if you have to
>fill out a pre-printed form, nothing beats a typewriter. For this reason,
>all through college i found that i could guarantee a supply of devoted
>friends simply by letting it be known that i owned a typewriter.
>
>David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
>     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
>     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
>     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.

I had an M.A. student from Brazil this quarter who panicked when I said she
should type the title etc. on the defense approval form--she had no idea
how to use a typewriter!  So I typed it for her.

(P.S.  I love Jeanne's chocolate laws and have passed them on to all my
friends!)


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Thu Dec  5 19:17:55 2002
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:17:55 -0500
Subject: Bougie/Bourgie
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021205135600.00b59e78@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.141755.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone run into any printed examples of the short form of "bourgeois"
that's pronounced "bougie"? I'm editing a text written by a black woman and
she uses the "bougie" spelling; that's how it sounds when my husband says
it but I've never seen it written.


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Dec  5 19:19:41 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:19:41 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <003001c29c8f$b50427c0$7d0ad63f@annehpbrww9plk>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.141941.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money move
southward, as they now are.  Four presidents since LBJ have been from the
South, and no one considers them dumb (well, maybe excepting the present
one...), and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
didn't talk like the Eastern elite by any means.  Congressional, corporate,
and even media leaders are increasingly from the South and Southwest.  So
patience--as Labov concluded a talk he gave a few years ago at SECOL, the
South shall rise again!

I'm curious to know what college your mother attended, Anne?

At 10:54 AM 12/5/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>To all:
>
>I don't know what to say to all of this.  I only know what my mother told me
>once about her college experience, where everyone was expected to take
>"speech" lessons.  The purpose of these "speech lessons" was to get some
>people(specifically people from some parts of the South and from some parts
>of New York)to "lose" their "accents".  Southerners at that time (and
>sometimes still are) considered ill-educated and stupid in the "folklore".
>The other "experience" I've had is reading about people who take "speech"
>therapy so they can "lose" their accents and succeed in business.
>Apparently people with "Eastern Kentucky" and other obvious "Southern"
>accents aren't taken seriously in business or as TV announcers, etc.  So
>prejudiced and ill-informed as this professor may be, he appears to be
>coming from a long tradition. . . .
>Anne G
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 8:49 AM
>Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>
>
> > >Since i am from north central Kentucky, I actually subtract
> > >23.567832, give or take a little.
> >
> > dInIs
> >
> >
> >
> > >Unfortunately for those of us with an Eastern Kentucky accent, while
> > >many others are thought of as sophisticated, people hear the Eastern
> > >Kentucky accent and subtract a couple dozen IQ points.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Travis Scott Hall
> > >
> > >  >From: Margaret Blankenship
> > >  >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> > >  >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >  >Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
> > >  >Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:23:22 -0500
> > >  >
> > >  >Stephani,
> > >  >I have to also say that your professor was wrong to expect people to
> > >  >cahnge
> > >  >what is a part of who they are. Where has he/she come from that he
> > >  >thinks
> > >  >his accent is far superior to anyone else's. That is what is wrong
> > >  >with our
> > >  >society today, people are always so quick to judge others by an
> > >  >accent, sex,
> > >  >religion or culture. It is ridiculous to say the least. Stephanie
> > >  >you stick
> > >  >to your guns and tell your professor maybe they should not be
> > >  >teaching
> > >  >because of prejidices.
> > >  >Margaret Blankenship
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >>From: Stephani Hardin
> > >  >>Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> > >  >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >  >>Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
> > >  >>Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:25:38 -0500
> > >  >>
> > >  >>In one of the Education classes I took last Fall A Professor made a
> > >  >>remark
> > >  >>in
> > >  >>class that has bothered me to this day. He said, "Some of you in
> > >  >>here
> > >  >>speak
> > >  >>with a heavy Eastern Kentucky accent, and you need to think
> > >  >>seriously about
> > >  >>working on changing it if you want to teach English." I find this
> > >  >>to be
> > >  >>both
> > >  >>offensive and judgmental. An accent has no bearing on accepted
> > >  >>forms of
> > >  >>speech. (I use the word 'accepted' rather than 'correct', because
> > >  >>on whose
> > >  >>standards do we even judge forms of speech) To ask someone to
> > >  >>change an
> > >  >>accent
> > >  >>is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we all, regardless of
> > >  >>where
> > >  >>we
> > >  >>are from, have one. This Professor displays a preference for one
> > >  >>accent
> > >  >>over
> > >  >>another, and he suggests I change something that is a part of who I
> > >  >>am.
> > >  >>Why
> > >  >>should I compromise my heritage to suit the standards of someone
> > >  >>with
> > >  >>linguistic prejudices?
> > >  >>
> > >  >>Stephani Hardin
> > >  >
> > >  >
> > >  >_________________________________________________________________
> > >  >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
> > >  >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
> > >
> > >
> > ><http://g.msn.com/8HMHEN/2015>the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> >
> > --
> > Dennis R. Preston
> > Professor of Linguistics
> > Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
> >       Asian & African Languages
> > Michigan State University
> > East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> > e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> > phone: (517) 353-9290
> >


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Thu Dec  5 19:21:23 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:21:23 -0800
Subject: Those ones
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.112123.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I got a request to settle a grammar question today
about the use of "those (exact) ones". My friends
husband grew up in Oklahoma and was told to never use
"ones" with "those". He gave her a hard time about the
phrase "those exact ones". I have never heard of this
prescriptive rule, but I must admit that "those ones"
by itself sounds pretty bad to me. However, with an
adjective it sounds fine. The following are my
judgements:

I like these cars much better than those ones. (not so
good)

I like these cars much better than those. (good)

But

I like these green cars much better than those red
ones. (good)

I like these green cars much better than those red.
(not so good)


That said, Jespersen In his 1933 Essentials of English
Grammar states: "The secondary combined with "one" is
very often an adjective...The secondary may also be a
pronoun." And then he gives the following example:

You must get some other clothes-those ones aren't fit
to be seen.

Does anyone share these judgements? Has anyone heard
this precriptive rule?

Ed

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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From dave at WILTON.NET  Thu Dec  5 19:46:55 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:46:55 -0800
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <023c01c29c8d$94c69800$0c53bb80@bowied>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.114655.0800.>

> 'Keyboarding' is a term for 'typing' like 'sanitation
> engineering' is to
> 'trash collector'--something to make it sound less
> low-<insert whatever
> here> than it is.

I wouldn't make that association with status. Rather, "keyboarding" is
computer jargon. It was coined for those situations where you are using a
keyboard on a device other than a typewriter. It's also much older than I
thought. The OED2 has a 1926 cite, using "keyboarding" to mean typesetting a
manuscript for print. The computer uses date to 1961.

There is also "to key" and "to key in" that are widely used in computing,
also dating to the early '60s. And there is the obsolete "keypunching,"
meaning to operate a keypunch machine used to punch data onto punchcards or
tape.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec  5 20:30:28 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 15:30:28 -0500
Subject: Lebkuchen (1850)
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.153028.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PICTURES OF NUREMBERG:
AND RAMBLES IN THE HILLS AND VALLEYS OF FRANCONIA
by H. J. Whitling
in two volumes
London: Richard Bentley
1850

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 80:  For the truth is, I always had a great desire to see it; and, even when a boy, had made up my mind, if possible, to visit it at some time or other, were it only to see the dungeons, and eat some of its famous "eggs," without being then aware that the "Nuremberg egg" was the same kind of vegetable novelty as the "English turnip;"...

Pg. 224: ...we will add no more upon this, beyond stating that Punch is drunk, and much Lebkuchen* eaten and given away by the orthodox on this occasion.
*Leb'kuchen, or, as it is called by some, lebbe (sweet) in the Osnaburg dialect, or otherwise Leben-kuchen, life-cake, a delicious kind of gingerbread, white or brown, for which Nuremberg is so much celebrated; and as the gentlemen have been indulged with a recipe for the "nectar," it would be unpardonable in us to omit the same consideration for the ladies; and, therefore, we have been at the pains to procure the necessary directions for the preparation of the "ambrosia" also.  Imprimatur!--
   Take eight eggs, beat them, yolks and whites together, for half an (Pg. 225--ed.) hour, with one pound of finely-sifted white sugar.  Rub into this the peeling of a whole lemon; mix it well; also, a table spoonful of ground spice, viz., one part of cloves, one part cardamums, and two parts of cinnamon; the same quantity also of finely cut candied orange peel; half a pound of blanched and roasted almonds shred in small pieces; one pound of fine dry flour--the whole to be well blended together, and spread out in convenient sizes on wafer (in Nuremberg they are always of this <> form, about eight inches by four inches), and baked in a quick oven.

Pg. 227:  These eggs the children are informed are laid by the hares* at this season,...
*See the translation of "The Easter Eggs," Die Ostereier, by H. J. Whitling, from the German of Christoph. Von Schmid.

Pg. 262:  Tea is served on these occasions at about half past five or from that to six o'clock, and it is called a "sweet tea," from the multitudinous cakes that accompany it, many of which are of the most delicious description, except that they are sometime a little _too_ sweet.

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 32:  So, then come and take this trout; get him ready for breakfast as quickly as possible, sparing neither eggs nor schmalz!

Pg. 48:  We had devoured sundry trout of our own catching, and a few dishes of "etwas dezu,"...

Pg. 147:  My heart clicked like a Nuremberg egg;*...
*The name given to the "watch" originally made there.

Pg. 223:  ...Molkenkur*...
*Goat's whey.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Dec  5 20:22:28 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 15:22:28 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021204193354.19665T-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.152228.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The fun part is when discriminated-against accents collide. An
intelligent acquaintance in the tech business recently moved from
Attlanta to New York City. He's got a placid, meandering Southern
accent and works for a firm of fast-talking Brooklynites who he says
sound like Joe Pesci. The firm responds to the stupidity they perceive
in his accent by offering him ridiculous below-average hourly wages; he
believes his employers to be uneducated fast-talking scammers not far
from thugs.

--
Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
gbarrett at americandialect.org
American Dialect Society webmaster
http://www.americandialect.org/


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Dec  5 21:24:45 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:24:45 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.132445.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 12/05/02 11:19AM >>>
 >and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,

Recent?


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Thu Dec  5 21:31:39 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:31:39 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <sdef53b8.095@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.163139.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

> >and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>
>Recent?

Ah youth!

Bethany


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Thu Dec  5 21:47:19 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:47:19 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <023c01c29c8d$94c69800$0c53bb80@bowied>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.164719.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, David Bowie wrote:

>Incidentally, typewriters are still a serious necessity, even for those of
>us raised with dedicated word processors and then later PCs--if you have to
>fill out a pre-printed form, nothing beats a typewriter. For this reason,
>all through college i found that i could guarantee a supply of devoted
>friends simply by letting it be known that i owned a typewriter.

Interesting. I gave my last typewriter away so that it would no longer
be possible for me to fill out a paper pre-printed form.

Bethany


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Dec  5 21:49:12 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:49:12 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.134912.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You've made my day, Bethany; it has been many years since I have been called 'youth'  (at least in English).  However, when I go to Germany, regardless of how old I get, everyone calls me 'youth.'
Fritz JUENGLING

>>> dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU 12/05/02 01:31PM >>>
On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:
> >and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>Recent?
>Ah youth!
>Bethany


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Dec  5 21:53:40 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:53:40 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <sdef53b8.095@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.165340.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:24 PM 12/5/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 12/05/02 11:19AM >>>
>  >and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>
>Recent?

It's all relative!  I was thinking post-WWII.  (Hey, I remember FDR.)


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Dec  5 21:56:00 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:56:00 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0212051646130.21040-100000@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.165600.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:47 PM 12/5/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, David Bowie wrote:
>
> >Incidentally, typewriters are still a serious necessity, even for those of
> >us raised with dedicated word processors and then later PCs--if you have to
> >fill out a pre-printed form, nothing beats a typewriter. For this reason,
> >all through college i found that i could guarantee a supply of devoted
> >friends simply by letting it be known that i owned a typewriter.
>
>Interesting. I gave my last typewriter away so that it would no longer
>be possible for me to fill out a paper pre-printed form.
>
>Bethany

But the downside to this is that young people now fill out application
forms etc. with the most indecipherable penmanship I've ever seen.  Ugh!


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec  5 22:05:50 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:05:50 -0800
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <023c01c29c8d$94c69800$0c53bb80@bowied>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.140550.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> I have to admit that i'd *never* made any connection between the verb 'type'
> and the noun 'type' referred to in the last line there. Now that i see it,
> it makes perfect sense, though.

Among the stuff in my basement (for those back East: cellar) is a 1913
Chandler & Price letterpress, ca. 1800 lbs. of it, with around 60 trays
full of type of all sizes and linoleum cuts and boxwood engravings used to
print all sorts of ephemera. To the course I mentioned yesterday (the
Jerry Clower story) I take a type tray (also known as a case), usually
with something as big as 18 point type, and ask each student to take a
letter e out of the lower part of the tray (easy to find because it's in
the biggest compartment)  and press it hard against the meat of the thumb,
then release it and peer at the image.  Goodness: lots of e all over the
place. After I explain the process of hand-setting a page for the press,
they put the letters back into the e compartment. Then I take out a
capital E from its little compartment, which is in the top part of the
case.

And so they learn what "upper case" and "lower case" is. And it beats a
tattoo parlor.

PR


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Thu Dec  5 21:53:11 2002
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:53:11 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <46584E16-088F-11D7-A59F-0003931D8244@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.165311.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a counter-example:  it's always struck me as funny that the
"Boston accent" seems to enjoy status outside eastern MA.
Whereas I grew up thinking of it as a sort of working-class dialect,
my friends from out of state associate it with the aristocratic
Kennedy clan.  On the other hand, a Latina friend from NYC just
howls at the way Bostonians pronounce "Nomar Garciaparra."
Those Bostonian aristocrats can't roll an "r" to save their lives, it
seems!

Joanne Despres
Merriam-Webster


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec  5 22:09:15 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:09:15 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021205140913.00b5a028@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.140915.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money move
> southward, as they now are.

How very true. There's a nice parallel in Germany, where the shift of
power and money to the south has engendered a sudden appreciation for
Swabian and Bavarian accents that used to be ridiculed.

PR


From linguist at PUNCHCUTTER.ML1.NET  Thu Dec  5 23:44:48 2002
From: linguist at PUNCHCUTTER.ML1.NET (David Iannucci)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:44:48 -0700
Subject: Falaqa
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.164448.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> My understanding is that the "q" spelling of Arabic words is used for a
> velar stop that is farther back than the one that occurs in English and
> is not phonetically conditioned, as is the English "k" sound.

  That would be a uvular stop (voiceless), and if I'm not mistaken 'q' is
  even the IPA symbol for this sound.

> It is also sometimes transliterated as "g" as it
> Kaddafi/Qaddafi/Gaddafi.

  Just wild speculation here, but I suspect that this sound, in spite of
  being voiceless, is often heard and transliterated as 'g' by English
  speakers because it is not aspirated, as 'k' would always be
  word-initially in English.

Dave


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec  5 17:35:58 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:35:58 -0500
Subject: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
In-Reply-To: <232994.1039079652@[10.218.201.115]>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.123558.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:14 AM -0800 12/5/02, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>Huh?  "Goethe" is not a "confusing semi-german spelling" that was "chosen"
>by some American.  It's the way the name is actually spelled in German.
>It's a foreign name, not a loanword subject to the naturalization processes
>such words undergo in the recipient language.  While it would be
>unreasonable to demand that no one who doesn't have a command of German
>should be allowed to utter the name, it is not unreasonable to expect such
>a person to approximate the German pronunciation to the best of his or her
>ability.  E.g., it's reasonable to accept a syllabic "American r" as an
>honest attempt to approximate the first vowel, but it's also reasonable to
>expect a t, not a th, for the second consonant, since no American should
>have any problem pronouncing the t in a way that's indistinguishable from
>the German pronunciation.
>
>Peter Mc.
>
Unless they're pronouncing the name of the street in Chicago, which
(I'm told) is something approximating "go-EE-thee", not "GUR-tuh".

larry


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Fri Dec  6 00:34:36 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:34:36 -0500
Subject: Those ones
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.193436.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ed Keer asks for opinions on:

  >> I like these cars much better than those ones.

The word "ones" is superfluous; the sentence is therefore clumsy.

  >> I like these cars much better than those.

Fine.

  >> I like these green cars much better than those red ones.

Okay.

  >> I like these green cars much better than those red.

Those red WHAT?

You'll be welcome in CompuServe's grammar/usage section:

   http://go.compuserve.com/money?AREA=Msgs&SEC=15

--DS


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Fri Dec  6 00:34:37 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:34:37 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.193437.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Peter Richardson. Nice story!

--DS


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 00:39:13 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:39:13 -0500
Subject: More specifics on "Baseball been berry berry good to me"
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.193913.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It was indeed Garrett Morris, and the Mets' player he created was
"Chico Escuela".  A few years ago, Curt Schilling--a first-rate
pitcher and all-around all-American good guy (according to the usual
media portrayal) was caught on ESPN mocking Sammy Sosa's Dominican
accent (Sosa had just been interviewed after hitting several long
homers during the annual All-Star Weekend home-run derby) by saying
"Baseball been berry berry good to me".  According to one on-line
account of the incident, "Schilling's putdown--which, remarkably,
merited a single brief mention in the Miami Herald--highlights the
kind of derision still directed at Latin athletes."

Larry


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Fri Dec  6 00:34:35 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:34:35 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.193435.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David Bowie (REALLY???) writes,

  >> I have to admit that i'd *never* made any connection between the verb
  >> 'type' and the noun 'type'...

That's the stuff projecting from the little ball-thing that sits in the
middle of the Selectric. Or, on earlier machines, at the ends of levers,
where they actually constituted *movable type*, the levers being activated
(sort of like the hammers in a piano) by striking the keys on the keyboard.

The original machine was called a "type-writer." Sam Clemens (who was the
first person to write an entire book with the device) did a
testimonial-type ad for it.

--DS


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Dec  6 00:51:03 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:51:03 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <sdef53b8.095@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.195103.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More recent than Washington and Lincoln I reckon. Don't we get to
call stuff in our lifetime recent?

dInIs



>  >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 12/05/02 11:19AM >>>
>  >and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>
>Recent?

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Dec  6 00:52:45 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:52:45 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021205165237.00b5a680@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.195245.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't trust anybody who doesn't remember FDR. Couldn't this be a
new liberal mantra?

dInIs

>At 01:24 PM 12/5/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>>  >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 12/05/02 11:19AM >>>
>>  >and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>>
>>Recent?
>
>It's all relative!  I was thinking post-WWII.  (Hey, I remember FDR.)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 01:00:51 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:00:51 -0500
Subject: language variation in the mainstream press
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021205140913.00b5a028@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.200051.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money move
>southward, as they now are.  Four presidents since LBJ have been from the
>South, and no one considers them dumb (well, maybe excepting the present
>one...), and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>didn't talk like the Eastern elite by any means.  Congressional, corporate,
>and even media leaders are increasingly from the South and Southwest.  So
>patience--as Labov concluded a talk he gave a few years ago at SECOL, the
>South shall rise again!
>
Speaking of Labov, there was a pretty good article in today's Times
(front page of section B) covering work by Ricardo Otheguy and other
sociolinguists on variation in the form and distribution of Spanish
pronoun forms among New York Latinos.  It mentions Labov's
dissertation research on "fourth floor" in NYC department stores and
in general struck me as well written, despite its references to "the
notorious...Noo Yawkese".  The writer, Janny Scott, isn't someone I
recall reading anything by in the past, but I found this one pretty
encouraging.

Larry


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Dec  6 01:06:25 2002
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:06:25 -0800
Subject: More specifics on "Baseball been berry berry good to me"
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.170625.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

i *think* this started as a private exchange between larry and me,
but maybe the topic is of general interest.

larry doesn't know this, but i asked him because, in an extravagantly
silly mood at the end of the quarter - will these oral exams never
stop? - i've been considering writing [note: *good* doubl-ing example]
a burlesque entitled "Homosexuality been berry berry good to me", in the
voice of an indiana farmboy who makes it to the pros.

ok, make that "terminally goofy"...

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Dec  6 01:15:27 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:15:27 -0800
Subject: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
In-Reply-To: <p04320411ba153e6a1292@[130.132.231.244]>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.171527.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yep, you're told right. (shudder!)

> Unless they're pronouncing the name of the street in Chicago, which
> (I'm told) is something approximating "go-EE-thee", not "GUR-tuh".


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Dec  6 01:26:56 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:26:56 -0500
Subject: Bougie/Bourgie
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021205141632.00a9e7d0@pop-server.nyc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.202656.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Dec 05, 2002 at 02:17:55PM -0500, Wendalyn Nichols wrote:
> Has anyone run into any printed examples of the short form of "bourgeois"
> that's pronounced "bougie"? I'm editing a text written by a black woman and
> she uses the "bougie" spelling; that's how it sounds when my husband says
> it but I've never seen it written.

There's an extensive entry in HDAS, showing a wide variety of differing
spellings....It's almost always pronounced BOO-zhee, whether spelled
bourgie or boojy or boojie or boogie or bourgie or some other things....

Jesse Sheidlower


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec  6 01:28:10 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:28:10 EST
Subject: Yanigan (1895)
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.202810.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I didn't have much time today to research the Philadelphia and Baltimore
newspapers.  I'll try again on Saturday.  There's no rush--the DICTIONARY OF
AMERICAN REGIONAL ENGLISH and the HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG
still aren't at "Y."
   1894 was not read.  I didn't see the term in Baltimore in 1895, but I
looked very quickly.


   26 March 1895, PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER, pg. 6, col. 1:
   The first or regular team of the Philadelphia Club rather rubbed it in on
the second or "Yanigan" nine this afternoon, and this evening Mike Grady has
been endeavoring to figure out how it all happened.

   21 March 1896, THE SUN (Baltimore), pg. 6, col. 4:
_Regulars and Yanigans of the Baltimore Team._


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 01:41:58 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:41:58 -0500
Subject: More specifics on "Baseball been berry berry good to me"
In-Reply-To: <200212060106.gB616PD05793@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.204158.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:06 PM -0800 12/5/02, Arnold Zwicky wrote:
>i *think* this started as a private exchange between larry and me,
>but maybe the topic is of general interest.
>
>larry doesn't know this, but i asked him because, in an extravagantly
>silly mood at the end of the quarter - will these oral exams never
>stop? - i've been considering writing [note: *good* doubl-ing example]
>a burlesque entitled "Homosexuality been berry berry good to me", in the
>voice of an indiana farmboy who makes it to the pros.
>
>ok, make that "terminally goofy"...
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

Oops, sorry Arnold, and list.  I wasn't being intentionally obscure.
Chemo brain again!

L


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Fri Dec  6 01:53:16 2002
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:53:16 -0600
Subject: obsolete term:  touch typing
In-Reply-To: <20021205050049.B814D4A31@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.195316.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Date:    Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:23:21 -0500
> From:    Frank Abate <abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET>
> Subject: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing
>
> Allan M said:
>
> >>
> Talking with a smart student tonight, I mentioned "touch typing" and
> she asked What's that? I explained it was typing using all of your
> fingers, without looking, what you learn in a typing class. To her,
> that was just "typing." Maybe there are no two-fingered typists left,
> to contrast "touch typing" with? <<
>
> I would say that this is evidence that the term is generational and
> perhaps fading, so maybe to be labeled "older" or even "obsolescent".
> But I and millions of others have it in our passive vocabulary, at
> least.  I remember touch typing courses and books, from the 50s and
> 60s.  In my high school (all boys) a typing class was required (I
> graduated in 1969).
>
> More evidence would be needed to nail down the status of this term.
> But this is a telling incident you're telling us, Allan.  Same kind of
> thing is happening re dial telephones (and the word "dial" re use of
> telephones), glass milk bottles (now in antique stores here, though
> still in daily use in the UK),

I've been told that half-pint milk bottles are  still used by
biologists for raising fruitflies. I don't know where the biologists
get them.

I think it was in the 1980's that I read a short piece (in New
Scientist?) about the half-pint milk bottle crisis.  Apparently, some
laboratory strains of fruit flies don't reproduce well in any other
kind of container.

 inkwells, and other such once-familiar
> aspects of our society, now fading or moribund.  Typewriters may soon
> join that list, but I still see them here and there, and there are
> some die-hard users of manual typewriters around.  One can still buy
> typewriter ribbons, maybe even at Staples, or Wal Mart.

What determines whether the word fades away, or is attached to a
replacement for the obsolete whatever?  I say "icebox" for
refrigerator.  That's uncommon enough for me to sometimes get funny
looks. But some others are common:  "glasses" for spectacles and
tumblers made of plastic, "broom" for besoms without any trace of a
broom plant.  And "cavalry" for military units which don't include
any horsemen.


From positive_pcr at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec  6 01:59:57 2002
From: positive_pcr at HOTMAIL.COM (positive pcr)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:59:57 -0500
Subject: "Not for nothing..." new meaning?
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.205957.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have lately observed the expression "not for nothing" used at the
beginning of a personal observation to mean something on the order of: "I
really don't want to say this but I feel I need to", as in:

"Not for nothing, but I think you've been wound a little tight lately."
Paulie "Walnuts" to Tony Soprano (Season 3, Episode 13, 20 May 2001).

And some Googled examples:

"Not for nothing, but look who's calling someone a pig." (4 Sept 2002)

"Not for nothing, but you D.C. motherf***ers couldn't keep a secret if
someone had a gun to your heads." (New York City, 15 March 2002)

"Not-For-Nothing But...If at anytime you don?t like what your reading, then
close your eyes!" (Dudley, Massachusetts, 29 April 2002)

Has anyone observed this new (to me) usage outside of the northeast? And any
earlier observances of it? I hear it more and more frequently in speech
originating around New York City, and have only started noticing it in
print, but it's one of those things that--now I am aware of it--pops up
everywhere.

thanks,
Graham (positive_pcr at hotmail.com)




_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Dec  6 02:18:34 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:18:34 EST
Subject: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.211834.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<< Unless they're pronouncing the name of the street in Chicago, which
(I'm told) is something approximating "go-EE-thee", not "GUR-tuh".

larry
 >>

My father was a professor of German at the U. of Chicago. He didn't have a
car, so once when he went to an event in the posh North Side neighborhood of
Goethe St he took the bus. He was careful to give the bus driver the proper
German pronunciation of the street name. It took considerable discussion
before the driver comprehended that he wanted to get off at go-EE-thee
street. - Allan Metcalf


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Dec  6 02:18:33 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:18:33 EST
Subject: icebox lives on
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.211833.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"icebox" has escaped obsolescence, because the machine that replaced the
icebox still is associated with ice. Ask a young person why it's sometimes
called an icebox, and the person will explain that's because it makes ice. -
Allan Metcalf


From Friolly at AOL.COM  Fri Dec  6 02:35:46 2002
From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:35:46 EST
Subject: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.213546.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I always cringe when I hear 'gur-tuh.'  The vowel of 'good' I think is a good
enough approximation for an English speaker.  I have also heard 'Getty.'  Did
the German writer have relatives who settled that little town in Penn that
gained fame in the CW?

As far as street names are concerned, 'Couch' street in Portland is 'Cooch,'
altho many people, esp out-of-towners, rhyme it with the piece of furniture.
Fritz

> << Unless they're pronouncing the name of the street in Chicago, which
> (I'm told) is something approximating "go-EE-thee", not "GUR-tuh".
>
> larry
> >>
>
> My father was a professor of German at the U. of Chicago. He didn't have a
> car, so once when he went to an event in the posh North Side neighborhood
> of
> Goethe St he took the bus. He was careful to give the bus driver the proper
> German pronunciation of the street name. It took considerable discussion
> before the driver comprehended that he wanted to get off at go-EE-thee
> street. - Allan Metcalf


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Fri Dec  6 03:10:48 2002
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:10:48 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.191048.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs:


> I don't trust anybody who doesn't remember FDR. Couldn't this be a
> new liberal mantra?


Hmmmmm. . . . .Guess you can't trust me, then.  But OTOH, I can remember
when you weren't supposed to trust anybody over 30. Does that make a
difference?
Anne G


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 03:43:16 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:43:16 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021205140913.00b5a028@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.224316.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:19 PM -0500 12/5/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money move
>southward, as they now are.  Four presidents since LBJ have been from the
>South, and no one considers them dumb (well, maybe excepting the present
>one...), and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>didn't talk like the Eastern elite by any means.

Actually I think there is some dialect prejudice at work here.  There
were (and for all I know still are) jokes about both Carter and
Clinton being dumb, even though by objective standards neither is the
case (Rhodes scholarship for Clinton, various honors for Carter, and
so on).  I suspect a lot of it had to do with them "sounding like
crackers", as I've heard it put, and some it specifically linked to
what people from Georgia or Arkansas are like. There may be a
disconnect in each case, part of which is presumably mediated by the
politics involved, but at least some of it by the dialect/accent.  I
don't recall similar jokes about Mondale, McGovern, or Dukakis,
although there were of course other sorts of jokes involved, as there
were about Ford, Bush Sr., Reagan, and especially Nixon.  In fact, a
nice minimal pair might be Ford vs. Carter or Clinton:  while there
were those jokes and routines about Ford not being able to walk and
chew gum at the same time, nobody (or not that many) made fun of the
way he talked or looked (remember the parodies of the Carter smile?)
or ate/farmed (remember the jokes about the peanuts?).  I don't think
regional prejudice can be entirely dismissed.

larry

P.S.  Consider too JFK vs. LBJ:  the latter was often treated as
dumb, the former never, although again objectively I think this would
be hard to support.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 03:52:28 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:52:28 -0500
Subject: Those ones
In-Reply-To: <20021205192123.4786.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.225228.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:21 AM -0800 12/5/02, Ed Keer wrote:
>I got a request to settle a grammar question today
>about the use of "those (exact) ones". My friends
>husband grew up in Oklahoma and was told to never use
>"ones" with "those". He gave her a hard time about the
>phrase "those exact ones". I have never heard of this
>prescriptive rule, but I must admit that "those ones"
>by itself sounds pretty bad to me. However, with an
>adjective it sounds fine. The following are my
>judgements:
>
>I like these cars much better than those ones. (not so
>good)
>
>I like these cars much better than those. (good)
>
>But
>
>I like these green cars much better than those red
>ones. (good)
>
>I like these green cars much better than those red.
>(not so good)
>

I don't know about the prescriptive rule, but there was a descriptive
rule popular in grammars written in the late '60's (back when
theoretical linguists actually wrote grammars) that deleted "ones"
after "those" and also cardinal numbers: cf. the oddness of "three
ones", "seven ones", "one one".  There are other factors involved:
compare your first example with the much better (to me)-sounding "I
like these pens better than those ones on the left" or "...those ones
behind them", although I'll grant that "the ones" might be more
natural than "those ones" even here.

larry


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Dec  6 03:57:37 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 22:57:37 EST
Subject: judgment/judgement (Again)
Message-ID: <THU.5.DEC.2002.225737.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My memory is that JUDGMENT was one of the McCormick spelling reforms that the
old Chicago Tribune introduced in the earlier 20th Century (along with THO
for THOUGH). If so, this would definitely make JUDGMENT an Americanism. Does
anyone on ADS-L know about this?


From SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM  Fri Dec  6 05:43:43 2002
From: SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM (Dodi Schultz)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 00:43:43 -0500
Subject: judgment/judgement (Again)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.004343.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  >> My memory is that JUDGMENT was one of the McCormick spelling reforms
  >> that the old Chicago Tribune introduced in the earlier 20th Century...

I don't think so, since the 1864 Merriam-Webster unabridged, of which I
happen to have a copy, gave JUDGMENT as the sole spelling.

The M-W II (1934) said "judgment, judgement."

Currently:

The M-W 10th Collegiate says "judgment or judgement."

American Heritage 4 says "judgment, also judgement."

The current Random House gives "judgment" only as the head word but tacks
on to the end of the definition, "Also, esp. Brit., judgement."

--DS


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Fri Dec  6 06:53:08 2002
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 00:53:08 -0600
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 4 Dec 2002 to 5 Dec 2002 (#2002-314)
In-Reply-To: <20021206050159.49D144AA2@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.005308.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Date:    Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:19:41 -0500
> From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>
> I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money
> move southward, as they now are.  Four presidents since LBJ have been
> from the South, and no one considers them dumb (well, maybe excepting
> the present one...),

Eugene McCarthy has been quoted as saying "I would not entrust Jimmy
Carter and his band of merry men with the job of snake control in
Ireland."

> and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman
> and Eisenhower, didn't talk like the Eastern elite by any means.
> Congressional, corporate, and even media leaders are increasingly from
> the South and Southwest.  So patience--as Labov concluded a talk he
> gave a few years ago at SECOL, the South shall rise again!

Which, I suspect, won't solve the problem for people with the _wrong_
Southern accents. Or for those who come from places which "aren't
really part of the South."  And, of course, it might end up with
northerners being discriminated against on the basis of the way they
talk.

My native dialect (Hudson Valley) doesn't seem to be a handicap; Rod
Serling -- who to my ears is accentless -- did quite well, for
example.  I did have to adjust my vocabulary a bit for life in New
York City, a bit more for life in Los Angeles, and quite a bit more
for life in the Twin Cities.

I do have a speech problem, which is another matter.


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Fri Dec  6 07:07:52 2002
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 01:07:52 -0600
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <20021206050159.49D144AA2@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.010752.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Date:    Thu, 5 Dec 2002 21:18:33 EST
> From:    AAllan at AOL.COM
> Subject: icebox lives on
>
> "icebox" has escaped obsolescence, because the machine that replaced
> the icebox still is associated with ice. Ask a young person why it's
> sometimes called an icebox, and the person will explain that's because
> it makes ice.

Thanks.

Now, what explains "broom" and "glasses"?


From Jim.Walker at WANADOO.FR  Fri Dec  6 07:18:44 2002
From: Jim.Walker at WANADOO.FR (Jim Walker)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 08:18:44 +0100
Subject: Two famous sport-related quotations
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021205175106.00a58550@po.pacific.net.au>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.081844.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Note from a UK football (or soccer, if you must) fan and lurker:

The second of your quotations, regarding life and death, is often attributed
to the legendary Bill Shankly, manager (or coach, if you will) of Liverpool
in the seventies. It may well be apocryphal, of course, but I've seen the
attribution on many an occasion. Shankly is revered in Liverpool, and this
quotation is part of his mystique in a sense.

Best regards

Jim

-----Message d'origine-----
De : American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]De la part
de Steve Cornelius
Envoy? : jeudi 5 d?cembre 2002 08:00
? : ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Objet : Two famous sport-related quotations


I'm looking for the earliest known citations for two quite famous
sport-related quotations.

The first is (something like) "Winning isn't everything - it's the only
thing".

The second (a response to a [journalist's?] question "Do you believe that
[enter name of game or sport] is a matter of life and death?"), is
(something like) "No, it's more important than that".

Can any ADS-L subscriber offer evidence, or perhaps just an opinion, on
either of these? They may or may not be of American origin.

Steve Cornelius
Sydney, Australia


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Dec  6 10:17:14 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 05:17:14 -0500
Subject: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.051714.0500.>

David and Bethany had the following exchange:

>>
On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, David Bowie wrote:

>Incidentally, typewriters are still a serious necessity, even for those of
>us raised with dedicated word processors and then later PCs--if you have to
>fill out a pre-printed form, nothing beats a typewriter. For this reason,
>all through college i found that i could guarantee a supply of devoted
>friends simply by letting it be known that i owned a typewriter.

Interesting. I gave my last typewriter away so that it would no longer
be possible for me to fill out a paper pre-printed form.
<<


I would add that typewriters are in use fairly widely, but in special
settings.  An office I work at, and other business places I've seen, use
them for forms that require carbon copies (yes, they are still used, and not
just for credit card receipts), and for address labels.  Recently I heard
one in use at a public library nearby (here in Conn.).  And one can still
buy a NEW typewriter, I believe, not just replacement ribbons.

Still, I see old manual typewriters in antique shops and such.

On a related note, dot-matrix and impact printers (the noisy ones), once
common in offices, are still in use, but only in certain places, again when
carbons are required.  One common use is in hotels, when they print out the
check-out bills for the guests -- the front desk keeps the carbon, the guest
gets the original (the top sheet).

Frank


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Dec  6 10:43:09 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 05:43:09 -0500
Subject: FW: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.054309.0500.>

Joanne D said:

>>
Here's a counter-example:  it's always struck me as funny that the
"Boston accent" seems to enjoy status outside eastern MA.
Whereas I grew up thinking of it as a sort of working-class dialect,
my friends from out of state associate it with the aristocratic
Kennedy clan.  On the other hand, a Latina friend from NYC just
howls at the way Bostonians pronounce "Nomar Garciaparra."
Those Bostonian aristocrats can't roll an "r" to save their lives, it
seems!
<<


It would make an interesting paper for an ADS meeting to present evidence of
current attitudes towards various "familiar" regional dialects in America.
Actually, probably a series of papers, then a book collecting them.  Takers?

In my own case, moving to western Massachusetts as I did in 1978 (having
lived prior to that only in the Midwest), I was amazed by the variety of
"accents" in New England.  There are at least two in and around Boston
(Brahmin vs. Kennedy/"Dawchestuh" type), then Rhode Island/SE Mass., then W
Mass., esp. W of the Conn. River (the Great "r-less" Divider; many people
who hail from Mass. and Conn. W of the river sound very much the same as
folks in upstate NY, and much closer to the Midwest "accent" than nearby E
Mass.).  The old Yankees of Maine and NH are also r-less, but with
differences from the folks from around Boston and south.

This has been widely studied and documented, of course, but things have
shifted, and new studies would are needed.  The various accents of NE got
laid down according to settlement patterns, and the fact that wide rivers
(like the Connecticut for much of its lower course) were once very difficult
to cross, so folks tended to live and have families on their own side.  Now
with travel across rivers, across anything really, so easy, the accents are
fading and melding somewhat.

All this is one reason why we will so much miss the likes of Don Lance.  His
updated edition of Kenyon's American Pronunciation is one sort of study that
needs redoing now, aside from something about common attitudes to "accents".

Frank Abate

PS: I always found Bug Bunny very funny, largely because of his Brooklynese.
Then I thought "All in the Family" was very funny, largely too because of
the Queens accents (or attempts at same).  Then I heard real people who
speak this way in NYC; to hear them is still is very striking to me.  So
yes, Jerry Cohen, you DO have an accent!


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Dec  6 11:17:15 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 06:17:15 -0500
Subject: ILA call for papers
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.061715.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The International Linguistic Association 43rd Annual Conference call
for papers may be viewed at
www.ilaword.org

David Barnhart
barnhart at highlands.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Dec  6 12:34:15 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:34:15 -0500
Subject: More specifics on "Baseball been berry berry good to me"
In-Reply-To: <200212060106.gB616PD05793@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.073415.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>arnold,

Having done research among Indiana farmboys (albeit not in the area
of their sexual preferences), I have not yet encountered the
astonishing /v/---> /b/ you describe. Since several of my doctoral
candidates (will this never end!) are writing dissertations on
various aspects of Midwestern English (sic), we hope you will be
willing to share your tapes so we can look at this phenomenon more
carefully.

dInIs

PS: I like 'terminally goofy' and, with your permission, will
immediately include in my set of self-descriptors.

>i *think* this started as a private exchange between larry and me,
>but maybe the topic is of general interest.
>
>larry doesn't know this, but i asked him because, in an extravagantly
>silly mood at the end of the quarter - will these oral exams never
>stop? - i've been considering writing [note: *good* doubl-ing example]
>a burlesque entitled "Homosexuality been berry berry good to me", in the
>voice of an indiana farmboy who makes it to the pros.
>
>ok, make that "terminally goofy"...
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Dec  6 12:37:09 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:37:09 -0500
Subject: Eastern Kentucky accent and UK accents
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.073709.0500.>

The following from Patrick Hanks is forwarded to the ADS-L at his request:

*******************
As a Brit, I have no idea what an Eastern Kentucky accent sounds like. (Is
it like the Everly Brothers? if so, that's a prestige accent where I come
from.)   Anyway, British English is rich in accent differences, so my
comments may be of interest.

I think there are two quite different notions buried in Stephani's protest:
"norm" and "correctness". The question is, was Stephani's professor
criticizing her accent on pragmatic grounds of deviation from widely
accepted norms (i.e. was he trying to help her with job-hunting in places
where Kentucky English is not understood or recognized) or was he just
being a pointless pedant trying to impose his own notion of correctness on
her Eastern Kentucky speech?  The distinction is crucial.

What he might have added was, "....if you want to teach English outside
Eastern Kentucky."

Here's a relevant cautionary tale:

A couple of decades ago, in Sweden, I learned more about English-language
teaching techniques from Jim, a Scottish colleague, than from anyone else
I've ever met.  His knowledge of pedagogical techniques was profoundly
illuminating, and he shared his expertise generously. He spoke a rich and
expressive form of Glaswegian English.  Unfortunately, his Glaswegian
accent was so strong that the course participants (including businessmen,
diplomats, and members of the Swedish and Norwegian parliaments) could
hardly understand a word he said. Cruelly, he got fired, while I, with my
southern British English accent, got all the credit for what he had taught
me, because my accent conformed to what the students had been led to
expect.  Stephani, do you want to end up like Jim, or can you bear to learn
"code switching"? Many Brits have one code of English for the home and
another for the workplace.  After all, if you applied for a job in Germany,
you might be expected to be competent in German, and this would in no way
be an attack on your heritage as a speaker of Eastern Kentucky English.

I mentioned the "Jim" experience (which troubled me) to John Spencer,
Professor of English at Leeds University (now Emeritus). He had an
interesting comment.  He said that he encouraged his students, who were
from West and South Africa, Austria, Eastern Europe, etc., etc. to develop
an accent that would combine local identifiability with international
comprehensibility. Ha! Easier said than done!  Anyway, John Spencer
actively discouraged "parrots" from sounding like Old Etonians.  You see, a
student with a good ear can sometimes produce perfect RP or General
American (it often happens), parrot-fashion, and this too can be a
disadvantage, because it generates false expections. The interlocutor is
led to expect that such a student's English comprehension will be as good
as their spoken English production.  So then the poor parrot gets lost, and
cannot bring themself to admit their comprehension failure.

[I hope you all enjoyed "themself:" in that last sentence  -- it is highly
relevant to "notions of correctness".]

In short, I think that, on the limited evidence before us, Stephani writes
so punchily that I doubt she will ever be short of a job for long -- though
it may not be an English teaching job, or at any rate not in parts of the
English-speaking world that are far distant from Eastern Kentucky, like New
York or Nigeria. If she expects New Yorkers and Nigerians to adjust to a
highly distinctive regional norm, she's on a hiding to nothing.  (Is "a
hiding to nothing" a British regionalism? Oh,
I'm. sorry....)

Code switching is an acquired skill. 500 years ago people like Erasmus did
it regularly between Dutch and medieval Latin; there's nothing bad about
asking Stephani to join those who can do it between General American
English and Eastern Kentucky English.  It's not a matter of asking her to
give up something; it's a matter of proposing to her that she should
acquire an additional communicative code for outside Easten Kentucky.


Patrick Hanks
Editor, Dictionary of American Family Names (forthcoming);
Lecturer, Department of Computer Science, Brandeis University;
Visiting Professor, Department of Informatics, Masaryk University, Brno,
Czech Republic;
***
Formerly Chief Editor, Oxford Current English Dictionaries;
Formerly Chief Editor, English Dictionaries, HarperCollins Publishers;
Formerly Visiting Scientist, AT&T Bell Laboratories;
Formerly Research Fellow, University of Birmingham, England;
Formerly Teacher of English for International Purposes, Furudals Bruk
Kurscentrum, Sweden;
Formerly British Council Course Organizer, In-Service Teacher Training,
Universities of Lodz and Katowice, Poland;
etc., etc.

[I thought it might be good to throw in a few of my credentials here,
although the current ones are least relevant]


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Dec  6 12:42:06 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:42:06 -0500
Subject: Walesa (was Goethe (and was: Which and Falaqa))
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021205171507.4185J-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.074206.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Why do some 'wrong' foreign pronunciations cause a shudder among the
well-educated and others not even get a wink. Nobody ever shuddered
when Lech Walesa (two Polish letters missing - hook on the 'e', bar
on the 'l') got called stuff far away from the phonotactically
possible English (and very close to accurate Polish) Vah-WEN-sah?
(Stressed syllable in caps.)

Could it simply be that poor old Lech is not part of a literary canon?

dInIs

PS: Actually, the above string is of course phonotactically
impossible for speakers of more standard dialects of US English. The
representation should be vah-WIN-sah, since SUSE (Standard US
English) lack /E/ (the vowel of 'bet') before nasals.



>Yep, you're told right. (shudder!)
>
>>  Unless they're pronouncing the name of the street in Chicago, which
>>  (I'm told) is something approximating "go-EE-thee", not "GUR-tuh".

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Dec  6 12:50:43 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:50:43 -0500
Subject: Bougie/Bourgie
In-Reply-To: <20021206012655.GD6021@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.075043.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > Has anyone run into any printed examples of the short form of "bourgeois"
> > that's pronounced "bougie"? I'm editing a text written by a black woman and
> > she uses the "bougie" spelling; that's how it sounds when my husband says
> > it but I've never seen it written.
>
>There's an extensive entry in HDAS, showing a wide variety of differing
>spellings....It's almost always pronounced BOO-zhee, whether spelled
>bourgie or boojy or boojie or boogie or bourgie or some other things....

I've run into the word "bougie" many times ... but it doesn't mean
"bourgeois" to me.

Is/was the double-entendre intended?

-- Doug Wilson


From THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 13:40:41 2002
From: THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 08:40:41 -0500
Subject: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.084041.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've known people of the name Goethe and the similar Goette in the
southeastern U. S. who pronounced their names, respectively, "Gertie" and
"Gatey."

Thom Harrison

-----Original Message-----
From: Fritz Juengling [mailto:Friolly at AOL.COM]
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:36 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)


I always cringe when I hear 'gur-tuh.'  The vowel of 'good' I think is a
good
enough approximation for an English speaker.  I have also heard 'Getty.'
Did
the German writer have relatives who settled that little town in Penn that
gained fame in the CW?

As far as street names are concerned, 'Couch' street in Portland is 'Cooch,'
altho many people, esp out-of-towners, rhyme it with the piece of furniture.
Fritz

> << Unless they're pronouncing the name of the street in Chicago, which
> (I'm told) is something approximating "go-EE-thee", not "GUR-tuh".
>
> larry
> >>
>
> My father was a professor of German at the U. of Chicago. He didn't have a
> car, so once when he went to an event in the posh North Side neighborhood
> of
> Goethe St he took the bus. He was careful to give the bus driver the
proper
> German pronunciation of the street name. It took considerable discussion
> before the driver comprehended that he wanted to get off at go-EE-thee
> street. - Allan Metcalf


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Fri Dec  6 14:37:02 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:37:02 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <3DEFF868.25878.46F195@localhost>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.093702.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Dan Goodman wrote:

>Now, what explains "broom"

As in "that thing I remove debris on the floor with"?

 and "glasses"?

As in the "reading glasses" i now purchase for $6 a pair, since I had
Lasik surgery?

Bethany


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Dec  6 15:55:46 2002
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:55:46 -0800
Subject: More specifics on "Baseball been berry berry good to me"
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.075546.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs, in response to me:
 >Having done research among Indiana farmboys (albeit not in the area
 >of their sexual preferences), I have not yet encountered the
 >astonishing /v/---> /b/ you describe. Since several of my doctoral
 >candidates (will this never end!) are writing dissertations on
 >various aspects of Midwestern English (sic), we hope you will be
 >willing to share your tapes so we can look at this phenomenon more
 >carefully

closer inspection of my fieldnotes suggests that this is a one-off
imitation of SNL.  i hope to investigate further soon; the informant
in question is now, no surprise, living in san francisco.  tapes
might be inadvisable, however.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM  Fri Dec  6 16:10:53 2002
From: TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM (Joyce, Thomas F.)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:10:53 -0600
Subject: Icebox lives on
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.101053.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I still refer to the refrigerator as the "icebox," although my wife and kids tease me about this.  Besides reminding me of how my parents spoke, it is just too good an example of Anglo-Saxon word formation to give up without a fight.


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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 16:27:50 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:27:50 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0212060935541.6467-100000@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.112750.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Dan Goodman wrote:
>
>>Now, what explains "broom"
>
>As in "that thing I remove debris on the floor with"?
>
>  and "glasses"?
>
>As in the "reading glasses" i now purchase for $6 a pair, since I had
>Lasik surgery?
>
I think the idea was that brooms aren't made from broom any longer,
nor are glasses made from glass, but we still call them by those
names.

L


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 16:31:52 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:31:52 -0500
Subject: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
In-Reply-To: <D6166D55BA96D511BEDE00105A1901320158721C@mail.maconstate.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.113152.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:40 AM -0500 12/6/02, Thom Harrison wrote:
>I've known people of the name Goethe and the similar Goette in the
>southeastern U. S. who pronounced their names, respectively, "Gertie" and
>"Gatey."
>
>Thom Harrison
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Fritz Juengling [mailto:Friolly at AOL.COM]
>Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:36 PM
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)
>
>
>I always cringe when I hear 'gur-tuh.'  The vowel of 'good' I think is a
>good
>enough approximation for an English speaker.  I have also heard 'Getty.'

If the speaker pronounces the first syllable like "good" without the
"d" and the second syllable like the "tuh" of "tomorrow" or "to me"
(instead of with the usual flap), it comes pretty close.

L


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Dec  6 16:41:04 2002
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:41:04 -0500
Subject: Eastern Kentucky accent and UK accents
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAOEEGDGAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.114104.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

But recall my comments on the difficulty of acquiring a second
dialect/accent past adolescence, for which there is considerable research
evidence.  However, that said, some accommodation may be made, certainly in
lexicon, somewhat less in grammar (as in giving up "needs washed" in favor
of "needs to be washed" or "needs washing"--not at all easy for native
users of the first form), and maybe to at least a "comprehensible" degree
in pronunciation (as Spencer suggested).

Hiring practices are a toughie.  Our ESL program refused, until just a few
years ago, to hire anyone but native American English speakers of a
"general" Northern/Midwestern accent--no Brits need apply!  The first
outsider they hired was a Malaysian English speaker with a long history of
EFL teaching and a semi-British English accent; the next two were actual
Brits (one RP-ish and the other resolutely not); another was a Scotsman who
reluctantly used SBE in the classroom but protested its "forced" spread
around the world; and now it has hired a Bulgarian guy whose English is
closer to AmEng than BritEng but who clearly has a NNS accent.  And in
between, it has finally hired several Southern and South Midland
Americans.  But one TA commented just the other day that the Southern
Alabama TA last year "changed" her speech for the sake of her ESL
students--not at all true, in my hearing, but testimony to the power of the
prescriptivist myth that even twists listeners' perceptions of their own
colleagues' speech!

On attitudes:  One of the British teachers in our ESL program did a
subjective reaction test (using taped voices but no other identifiers) of
ESL students for my Sociolinguistics class and found that "very
comprehensible" was the key factor; it happened to correlate positively
with another Brit voice, but written comments said "she talked slow,"
"repeated and rephrased often," "used varied intonation patterns,"
etc.  "Pleasant," "cultivated," "highly educated-sounding," etc. ranged all
over the various voices.  She interpreted this as common sense; training in
HOW to talk with new listeners (whether NNSs or others unfamiliar with the
local or national speech) is the critical factor.  My grad students
jokingly call me Road Runner because of my fast Minnesota speech, but I
know how to adjust when I have non-natives in the class!  I'd suggest the
same approach to Stephani and others.

Frank, perhaps you could forward this to Patrick Hanks, who's obviously had
experience in this area too.  (But the Everly Brothers?!)

Beverly Olson Flanigan
Associate Professor of Linguistics
Ohio University
Athens, OH  45701
www.ohiou.edu/linguistics/


At 07:37 AM 12/6/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>The following from Patrick Hanks is forwarded to the ADS-L at his request:
>
>*******************
>As a Brit, I have no idea what an Eastern Kentucky accent sounds like. (Is
>it like the Everly Brothers? if so, that's a prestige accent where I come
>from.)   Anyway, British English is rich in accent differences, so my
>comments may be of interest.
>
>I think there are two quite different notions buried in Stephani's protest:
>"norm" and "correctness". The question is, was Stephani's professor
>criticizing her accent on pragmatic grounds of deviation from widely
>accepted norms (i.e. was he trying to help her with job-hunting in places
>where Kentucky English is not understood or recognized) or was he just
>being a pointless pedant trying to impose his own notion of correctness on
>her Eastern Kentucky speech?  The distinction is crucial.
>
>What he might have added was, "....if you want to teach English outside
>Eastern Kentucky."
>
>Here's a relevant cautionary tale:
>
>A couple of decades ago, in Sweden, I learned more about English-language
>teaching techniques from Jim, a Scottish colleague, than from anyone else
>I've ever met.  His knowledge of pedagogical techniques was profoundly
>illuminating, and he shared his expertise generously. He spoke a rich and
>expressive form of Glaswegian English.  Unfortunately, his Glaswegian
>accent was so strong that the course participants (including businessmen,
>diplomats, and members of the Swedish and Norwegian parliaments) could
>hardly understand a word he said. Cruelly, he got fired, while I, with my
>southern British English accent, got all the credit for what he had taught
>me, because my accent conformed to what the students had been led to
>expect.  Stephani, do you want to end up like Jim, or can you bear to learn
>"code switching"? Many Brits have one code of English for the home and
>another for the workplace.  After all, if you applied for a job in Germany,
>you might be expected to be competent in German, and this would in no way
>be an attack on your heritage as a speaker of Eastern Kentucky English.
>
>I mentioned the "Jim" experience (which troubled me) to John Spencer,
>Professor of English at Leeds University (now Emeritus). He had an
>interesting comment.  He said that he encouraged his students, who were
>from West and South Africa, Austria, Eastern Europe, etc., etc. to develop
>an accent that would combine local identifiability with international
>comprehensibility. Ha! Easier said than done!  Anyway, John Spencer
>actively discouraged "parrots" from sounding like Old Etonians.  You see, a
>student with a good ear can sometimes produce perfect RP or General
>American (it often happens), parrot-fashion, and this too can be a
>disadvantage, because it generates false expections. The interlocutor is
>led to expect that such a student's English comprehension will be as good
>as their spoken English production.  So then the poor parrot gets lost, and
>cannot bring themself to admit their comprehension failure.
>
>[I hope you all enjoyed "themself:" in that last sentence  -- it is highly
>relevant to "notions of correctness".]
>
>In short, I think that, on the limited evidence before us, Stephani writes
>so punchily that I doubt she will ever be short of a job for long -- though
>it may not be an English teaching job, or at any rate not in parts of the
>English-speaking world that are far distant from Eastern Kentucky, like New
>York or Nigeria. If she expects New Yorkers and Nigerians to adjust to a
>highly distinctive regional norm, she's on a hiding to nothing.  (Is "a
>hiding to nothing" a British regionalism? Oh,
>I'm. sorry....)
>
>Code switching is an acquired skill. 500 years ago people like Erasmus did
>it regularly between Dutch and medieval Latin; there's nothing bad about
>asking Stephani to join those who can do it between General American
>English and Eastern Kentucky English.  It's not a matter of asking her to
>give up something; it's a matter of proposing to her that she should
>acquire an additional communicative code for outside Easten Kentucky.
>
>
>Patrick Hanks
>Editor, Dictionary of American Family Names (forthcoming);
>Lecturer, Department of Computer Science, Brandeis University;
>Visiting Professor, Department of Informatics, Masaryk University, Brno,
>Czech Republic;
>***
>Formerly Chief Editor, Oxford Current English Dictionaries;
>Formerly Chief Editor, English Dictionaries, HarperCollins Publishers;
>Formerly Visiting Scientist, AT&T Bell Laboratories;
>Formerly Research Fellow, University of Birmingham, England;
>Formerly Teacher of English for International Purposes, Furudals Bruk
>Kurscentrum, Sweden;
>Formerly British Council Course Organizer, In-Service Teacher Training,
>Universities of Lodz and Katowice, Poland;
>etc., etc.
>
>[I thought it might be good to throw in a few of my credentials here,
>although the current ones are least relevant]


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Dec  6 17:03:56 2002
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:03:56 -0500
Subject: judgment/judgement (Again)
In-Reply-To: <9.3e0a46e.2b217a31@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.120356.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:57 PM 12/5/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>My memory is that JUDGMENT was one of the McCormick spelling reforms that the
>old Chicago Tribune introduced in the earlier 20th Century (along with THO
>for THOUGH). If so, this would definitely make JUDGMENT an Americanism. Does
>anyone on ADS-L know about this?

And "acknowledgment" too?  (I still stubbornly add an 'e'.)


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Dec  6 17:02:40 2002
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:02:40 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <p04320401ba15cad9515e@[130.132.245.164]>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.120240.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:43 PM 12/5/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>At 2:19 PM -0500 12/5/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money move
>>southward, as they now are.  Four presidents since LBJ have been from the
>>South, and no one considers them dumb (well, maybe excepting the present
>>one...), and the two recent midwestern presidents, Truman and Eisenhower,
>>didn't talk like the Eastern elite by any means.
>
>Actually I think there is some dialect prejudice at work here.  There
>were (and for all I know still are) jokes about both Carter and
>Clinton being dumb, even though by objective standards neither is the
>case (Rhodes scholarship for Clinton, various honors for Carter, and
>so on).  I suspect a lot of it had to do with them "sounding like
>crackers", as I've heard it put, and some it specifically linked to
>what people from Georgia or Arkansas are like. There may be a
>disconnect in each case, part of which is presumably mediated by the
>politics involved, but at least some of it by the dialect/accent.  I
>don't recall similar jokes about Mondale, McGovern, or Dukakis,
>although there were of course other sorts of jokes involved, as there
>were about Ford, Bush Sr., Reagan, and especially Nixon.  In fact, a
>nice minimal pair might be Ford vs. Carter or Clinton:  while there
>were those jokes and routines about Ford not being able to walk and
>chew gum at the same time, nobody (or not that many) made fun of the
>way he talked or looked (remember the parodies of the Carter smile?)
>or ate/farmed (remember the jokes about the peanuts?).  I don't think
>regional prejudice can be entirely dismissed.
>
>larry
>
>P.S.  Consider too JFK vs. LBJ:  the latter was often treated as
>dumb, the former never, although again objectively I think this would
>be hard to support.

You're right, of course; I was idealistically looking both backward and
forward.  But Ford and Mondale, with their "older" Michigan and Minnesota
voices, were mocked a bit, weren't they?  (Cf. the woman in "American
Tongues" who says Wisconsinites "sound like they're Norwegian.")  On
JFK:  I wonder if he benefited somewhat from the good memories of FDR,
whose upper-class NY speech must have sounded strange to Midwesterners in
the 30s but who did good things "in spite of" his origins?  As someone else
pointed out, JFK was hardly a Brahmin (with his intrusive /r/, for
example), but he looked elite and posh--not for nothing, I might add.


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Dec  6 17:06:43 2002
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:06:43 -0500
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 4 Dec 2002 to 5 Dec 2002 (#2002-314)
In-Reply-To: <3DEFF4F4.6926.397243@localhost>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.120643.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:53 AM 12/6/2002 -0600, you wrote:
> > Date:    Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:19:41 -0500
> > From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> > Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
> >
> > I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money
> > move southward, as they now are.  Four presidents since LBJ have been
> > from the South, and no one considers them dumb (well, maybe excepting
> > the present one...),
>
>Eugene McCarthy has been quoted as saying "I would not entrust Jimmy
>Carter and his band of merry men with the job of snake control in
>Ireland."

Yes, alas, Gene McCarthy (who I campaigned for in my old Minnesota days)
fell prey to elitism. . . .


From t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA  Fri Dec  6 16:26:49 2002
From: t.paikeday at SYMPATICO.CA (THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:26:49 -0500
Subject: BALLIOL (was: Goethe, was: Which and Falaqa)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.112649.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: <AAllan at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: Goethe (was: Which and Falaqa)


> << Unless they're pronouncing the name of the street in Chicago, which
> (I'm told) is something approximating "go-EE-thee", not "GUR-tuh".
>
> larry
>  >>
>
> My father was a professor of German at the U. of Chicago. He didn't have a
> car, so once when he went to an event in the posh North Side neighborhood
of
> Goethe St he took the bus. He was careful to give the bus driver the
proper
> German pronunciation of the street name. It took considerable discussion
> before the driver comprehended that he wanted to get off at go-EE-thee
> street. - Allan Metcalf

THIS PROBABLY QUALIFIES AS THE LOVELIEST EXCHANGE OF THE YEAR ON ADS-L,
THOUGH NO CIGAR! Incidentally, I'm reminded of "Balliol St." in Toronto
which is correctly pronounced locally as (buh.LOIL) unless that has changed
in recent times!

t.m.p.


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Dec  6 17:48:04 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:48:04 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <p04320401ba168057b568@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.124804.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Larry writes:
>I think the idea was that brooms aren't made from broom any longer,
>nor are glasses made from glass, but we still call them by those
>names.
>
>L
~~~~~~
Not entirely true.  I still buy brooms made from broom corn, and my glasses
have glass lenses (which I specify, since the plastic ones scratch far too
readily).
A.Murie


From Dialectap at AOL.COM  Fri Dec  6 17:55:52 2002
From: Dialectap at AOL.COM (Your Name)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:55:52 EST
Subject: Icebox lives on
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.125552.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And then there is "tin" foil = aluminum foil.  (Maybe this was mentioned
earlier.)
Allyn P.


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:09:45 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:09:45 -0800
Subject: Those ones
In-Reply-To: <200212051934_MC3-1-1E69-45F2@compuserve.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.100945.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Dodi Schultz <SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM> wrote:
> Ed Keer asks for opinions on:
>
>   >> I like these cars much better than those ones.
>
> The word "ones" is superfluous; the sentence is
> therefore clumsy.


I agree. But, I wonder why it's superfluous when a
sentence like:

I like this car much better than that one.

is fine. I could imagine a generative syntax/semantics
analysis. Just wondering if anyone was aware of any
work on it.

Also, it seems that "those ones" was perfectly fine in
earlier English, at least according to Jespersen. So
is this new?

Ed

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From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:14:37 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:14:37 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021206120505.00af69e0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.131437.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        [Dan Goodman -- Bev, your reply attributes this as "you said"]
#>Eugene McCarthy has been quoted as saying "I would not entrust Jimmy
#>Carter and his band of merry men with the job of snake control in
#>Ireland."

        [Beverly Flanigan]
#Yes, alas, Gene McCarthy (who I campaigned for in my old Minnesota days)
#fell prey to elitism. . . .

Excuse me, but where does that quotation imply any connection with Jimmy
Carter's accent or region of origin? There are lots and lots of reasons
for one politician to put down another one, and some of them are even
legitimate.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:16:48 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:16:48 -0500
Subject: BALLIOL (was: Goethe, was: Which and Falaqa)
In-Reply-To: <03cf01c29d4d$35b210e0$0725e440@co611769a>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.131648.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY wrote:

#THIS PROBABLY QUALIFIES AS THE LOVELIEST EXCHANGE OF THE YEAR ON ADS-L,
#THOUGH NO CIGAR! Incidentally, I'm reminded of "Balliol St." in Toronto
#which is correctly pronounced locally as (buh.LOIL) unless that has changed
#in recent times!

Have you heard what Philly does to all the lovely-looking (to my eye)
Welsh place names around here? At least Bala Cynwyd is, I think, still
given a hard "c" (/k/).

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:18:14 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:18:14 -0500
Subject: Bougie/Bourgie
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021206074106.047a22b0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.131814.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

#I've run into the word "bougie" many times ... but it doesn't mean
#"bourgeois" to me.
#
#Is/was the double-entendre intended?

Double entendre?

French word for 'candle'? "Bo(o)gie-man"? "Boogie on down"? "Booger"
'piece of snot'?

-- Mark A. Mandel


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:25:42 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:25:42 -0800
Subject: BALLIOL (was: Goethe, was: Which and Falaqa)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212061315100.77669293-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.102542.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Have you heard what Philly does to all the
> lovely-looking (to my eye)
> Welsh place names around here? At least Bala Cynwyd
> is, I think, still
> given a hard "c" (/k/).
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel

Yup!

Ed

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From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:40:12 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:40:12 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <p04320401ba168057b568@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.134012.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:

#I think the idea was that brooms aren't made from broom any longer,

It's turned around. Honestly, now, how old were you when you first read
of -- I won't say heard of -- the broom plant, and what did you think of
when you did? I can barely imagine how any modern L1 English speaker
would see "broom" 'sweeping tool' as derivative; it's just the name of
the thing, like "brush" or "sponge" (It GROWS? In the SEA? You gotta be
kidding me! This block of cellulose?).

#nor are glasses made from glass,

Either optical or drinking.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:41:58 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:41:58 -0500
Subject: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <200212040315.gB43FIA12345@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.134158.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Because I was a dork as a child, I was fascinated by typewriters: I
started copying stuff out of the atlas when I was about 4, using my mom's
nonelectric typewriter; one of the first purchases I bought in high school
when I got a job was an electric typewriter. I typed a lot after school
growing up, mostly coming up with lists, inventing latinesque languages,
and writing really bad adolescent fiction.

The point is, I never had a formal typing class, yet I type very rapidly
-- I would suspect that for many kids nowdays who learn to type from a
young age they learn to quickly type by some idiosyncratic system.

I don't know how I type like I do -- another interesting tidbit -- a few
years ago I bought a split keyboard for work to reduce hand pain (it did),
and I assumed I'd have some annoying learning curve in using the new
keyboard -- but, no, I took to it like a duck to water from the word go.

-- Steve


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec  6 18:50:03 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:50:03 -0500
Subject: Which and Falaqa
In-Reply-To: <20021205144953.90627.qmail@web9701.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.135003.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, James Smith wrote:

#"Koran" is seen as "Q'run" more frequently.

Than what? I have *never* seen "Q'run" for "Koran", or anything else
AFIAR; out of context I would pronounce it "kyoo-run". I have
occasionally seen "Qur'an" (optional macron on the "a").

-- Mark A. Mandel


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Fri Dec  6 19:13:17 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:13:17 -0800
Subject: Eastern Kentucky accent and UK accents
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.111317.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>> flanigan at OHIO.EDU 12/06/02 08:41AM >>>

>>Hiring practices are a toughie.  Our ESL program refused, until just a few
>>years ago, to hire anyone but native American English speakers of a
>>"general" Northern/Midwestern accent--no Brits need apply!

Didn't we just have the results of a perception test about 3 weeks ago in which it was determined that Texans are the most honest, etc, etc.?  Maybe Stephani should look through the archives and find the results of that investigation.  I don't know what her prof really meant or his attitudes, but those findings are surely food for thought for her.

 >>My grad students jokingly call me Road Runner because of my fast Minnesota speech,

That's very interesting, Beverly, because one of the stereotypes of MN speech is that it is very slooowww. Remember Howard Mohr's "How to Talk Minnesotan"? (At least I think it was Howard)
Fritz


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 19:27:29 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:27:29 -0500
Subject: Stella Liebeck  & McDonalds Coffee (fwd)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.142729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Since there was a recent thread here touching on "tart lawyers" and the
McDonald's case, I thought posting a message from another listserv (with
the author's permission) on this subject might be of interest to some of
you.  I know this is wildly off-topic, but, hell, if Barry hasn't been
kicked off yet for off-topic-ness I should be safe.

Fred Shapiro



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 14:16:58 -0500
From: Chris Shaver <cc_shaver at hotmail.com>
To: law-lib at ucdavis.edu
Subject: Re: Stella Liebeck  & McDonalds Coffee

To this day, the Stella Liebeck story is still quite a contentious issue.
Just his morning I got 2 emails from different friends, purporting to tell
me about all of the unfair jury awards this event spawned.  Since I work at
a high paying job and have tons of free time on my hands and an insatiable
curiosity about Urban Legends, I'll share with you all what I've found.

First, ALL of the other stories, posted at the bottom are false, every one
of them!  Check these 2 pages out for confirmation.

http://www.stellaawards.com/ and  http://www.stellaawards.com/bogus.html

Next, some background that I researched about the whole Stella Liebeck
story...Both against and for the issue!

February 1992, the infamous date that took the "happy" out of the Happy
Meal.  79-year-old Stella Liebeck of Albuquerque, New Mexico was in the
passenger seat of her grandson's car when she was severely burned at
McDonalds. Liebeck received a cup of coffee that was served in a Styrofoam
cup at the drive-through window, and the rest is history.

Her sweatpants absorbed the scalding coffee and stuck it to her skin. A
vascular surgeon determined that Liebeck suffered third-degree burns over 6%
of her body, including her inner thighs, perineum (the space between her
anus and her vagina), buttocks, and genital and groin areas. She spent a
week in the hospital, and underwent skin grafting.

She sought a settlement of $2,000 and McDonalds refused. Now, common sense
would dictate McDonalds should easily defeat such a frivolous a lawsuit, but
they failed to reason in the X Factor: a dumb jury.  In 1994 they awarded
Liebeck, now 81 years old, $200,000 in compensatory damages, reduced to
$160,000 because the jury found Liebeck only 20% at fault in the spill.

The jury also awarded Liebeck $2.7 million in punitive damages, equalling
approximately two days of McDonalds' coffee sales. The court later reduced
the punitive award to $480,000, or three times compensatory damages, even
though the judge called McDonalds' conduct "reckless, callous and wilful".
Right, it's reckless, callous and wilful to make hot coffee hot.

There was later a "secret" settlement, so the final tally will never be
known.

But there is another side to this "travesty of justice". You probably never
heard that after the week in an Albuquerque hospital, she spent about three
weeks recuperating at home with her daughter. Then she was hospitalized
again for skin grafts. She had lost 20 pounds - down to 83 pounds - and was
practically immobilized. The grafts were almost as painful as the burn.

Mrs. Liebeck initially wrote to McDonald's asking the company to turn down
the coffee temperature. She was not planning to sue but she thought she was
entitled to her out-of-pocket expenses, about $2,000, plus lost wages of her
daughter who stayed home to care for her.  McDonald's offered her $800.00.

She then did what many aggrieved people do. She went hunting for a lawyer.
That lawyer eventually took her case to the cornerstone of your justice
system: a jury. At first, this was a jury that was annoyed at having to
listen to a case about spilled coffee. But they learned three interesting
things that changed their minds.

A/ That coffee at 170 degrees Fahrenheit would cause second-degree burns
within 3.5 seconds of hitting the skin.

B/ That McDonalds heats their coffee almost 20 degrees higher than other
"fast food" restaurants.

C/ Finally, that McDonalds had not lowered the heat under the coffee despite
receiving over 700 burn complaints over the previous 10 years.

This tends to put a different spin on the whole "spurious litigation"
aspect, doesn't it?  Yet, you'll still probably say she was an idiot for
putting a hot coffee cup in her lap in the first place.

Let me tell you Stella Liebeck's REAL story.

That morning she did not have time for breakfast because her son was taking
an early flight out of Albuquerque, so she left at dawn for the 60-mile trip
to the airport from Santa Fe. After she dropped Jim off, she and her
grandson stopped at McDonald's for breakfast. She ordered breakfast in the
drive through lane and then her grandson parked the car so she could add
some cream and sugar to her coffee She tugged at the cup to try to get the
top off.

Still pretty stupid, eh? BUT...her dashboard was slanted and she had no cup
holder in the Ford Probe. So she put the cup between her knees and tried to
pull the top off. She tugged and scalding coffee gushed into her lap. She
screamed and Chris leaped from the car to help her.  Desperately, she pulled
at her sweat suit squirming in a bucket seat as the coffee seared her skin
By the time they reached an emergency room, second and third degree burns
had spread across her buttocks and her lap.

What amazed me about all this was that her lawyer never had the idea to sue
Ford over the bad design of the Probe, that forced her to do something that
her common sense dictated was stupid.  After all, if she was really that
stupid, she probably wouldn't have lived to see 81.

Here are all the BOGUS Stella Award nominees that are floating around the
Internet via email right now...

"It's time once again to consider the candidates for the annual Stella
Awards."   The Stella's are named after 81-year-old Stella Liebeck who
spilled coffee on herself and successfully sued McDonalds.

That case inspired the Stella awards for the most frivolous successful
lawsuits in the United States. The following are NOT this year's candidates,
they are just Urban Legends.

1. A jury of her peers awarded Kathleen Robertson of Austin, Texas, $780,000
after breaking her ankle tripping over a toddler who was running inside a
furniture store. The owners of the store were understandably surprised at
the verdict, considering the misbehaving little toddler was Ms. Robertson's
son.

2. A 19-year-old Carl Truman of Los Angeles won $74,000 and medical expenses
when his neighbour ran over his hand with a Honda Accord. Mr. Truman
apparently didn't notice there was someone at the wheel of the car when he
was trying to steal his neighbour's hubcaps.

3. Terrence Dickson of Bristol, Pennsylvania, was leaving a house he had
just finished robbing by way of the garage. He was not able to get the
garage door to go up since the automatic door opener was malfunctioning. He
couldn't re-enter the house because the door connecting the house and garage
locked when he pulled it shut. The family was on vacation, and Mr. Dickson
found himself locked in the garage for eight days. He subsisted on a case of
Pepsi he found, and a large bag of dry dog food. He sued the homeowner's
insurance claiming the situation caused him undue mental anguish. The jury
agreed to the tune of $500,000.

4. Jerry Williams of Little Rock, Arkansas, was awarded $14,500 and medical
expenses after being bitten on the buttocks by his next-door neighbour's
beagle. The beagle was on a chain in its owner's fenced yard. The award was
less than sought because the jury felt the dog might have been just a little
provoked at the time by Mr. Williams who was shooting it repeatedly with a
pellet gun.

5. A Philadelphia restaurant was ordered to pay Amber Carson of Lancaster,
Pennsylvania, $113,500 after she slipped on a soft drink and broke her
coccyx (tailbone). The beverage was on the floor because Ms. Carson had
thrown it at her boyfriend 30 seconds earlier during an argument.

6. Kara Walton of Claymont, Delaware, successfully sued the owner of a
nightclub in a neighbouring city when she fell from the bathroom window to
the floor and knocked out her two front teeth. This occurred while Ms.
Walton was trying to sneak through the window in the ladies room to avoid
paying the $3.50 cover charge. She was awarded $12,000 and dental expenses.

7. This year's favourite could easily be Mr. Merv Grazinski of Oklahoma
City, Oklahoma. Mr. Grazinski purchased a brand new 32-foot Winnebago motor
home. On his first trip home, having driven onto the freeway, he set the
cruise control at 70 mph and calmly left the drivers seat to go into the
back and make himself a cup of coffee. Not surprisingly, the RV left the
freeway, crashed and overturned. Mr. Grazinski sued Winnebago for not
advising him in the owner's manual that he couldn't actually do this. The
jury awarded him $1,750,000 plus a new motor home. The company actually
changed their manuals on the basis of this suit, just in case there were any
other complete morons buying their recreation vehicles.

Best regards,

Chris Shaver, BSW
Coordinator/Employment Counsellor
St. Charles Mountain Adult Education Centre
Employment Assistance Resource Centre
150 East 5th Street, Hamilton, ON   L9A 2Z8
Pager: (905) 974 - 6213 Fax: (905) 575 - 5021 Phone: (905) 575 - 5021
Open 9 AM to 9 PM Mon. to Thurs., 10 AM to 4 PM Fri. & Sat., Closed Sunday


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 19:32:52 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:32:52 -0500
Subject: BALLIOL (was: Goethe, was: Which and Falaqa)
In-Reply-To: <03cf01c29d4d$35b210e0$0725e440@co611769a>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.143252.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:26 AM -0500 12/6/02, THOMAS M. PAIKEDAY wrote:
>  Incidentally, I'm reminded of "Balliol St." in Toronto
>which is correctly pronounced locally as (buh.LOIL) unless that has changed
>in recent times!
>

Can that be right?  Looks like another entry for the
"Favre"/"Malivai" metathesis file.
And it doesn't even have the excuse of "It's my name, and I can
pronounce it that way if I want to!"

Larry


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 19:33:32 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:33:32 -0500
Subject: More on Stella Liebeck  & McDonalds Coffee (fwd)
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.143332.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A little more info from the poster of the McDonald's message:  He asks me
to point out that the previous message was a synthesis of over 60
different websites and discussion boards.  Also, he wants to add that he
found that the original request to McDonald's was $20,000, not $2,000, but
that almost two years of physical therapy were required.

Fred Shapiro


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec  6 19:42:59 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:42:59 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <l03130303ba1692988d14@[12.107.142.212]>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.144259.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:48 PM -0500 12/6/02, sagehen wrote:
>  Larry writes:
>>I think the idea was that brooms aren't made from broom any longer,
>>nor are glasses made from glass, but we still call them by those
>>names.
>>
>>L
>~~~~~~
>Not entirely true.  I still buy brooms made from broom corn, and my glasses
>have glass lenses (which I specify, since the plastic ones scratch far too
>readily).
>A.Murie

Sorry, I meant "not necessarily".  Our use of "broom" and "glasses"
is synchronically unrelated to what specific instances of these items
are made of.  Similarly "wood" (for the golf club) and "rubber'.
(Compare "cheese" or "cream" which some of us are reluctant to extend
to the imitation versions.)

L


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Dec  6 19:59:24 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:59:24 EST
Subject: Icebox lives on
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.145924.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/6/02 12:44:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes:

>  Larry writes:
>  >I think the idea was that brooms aren't made from broom any longer,
>  >nor are glasses made from glass, but we still call them by those
>  >names.
>  ~~~~~~
>  Not entirely true.  I still buy brooms made from broom corn, and my glasses
>  have glass lenses (which I specify, since the plastic ones scratch far too
>  readily).

The process being discussed here is nothing more than "force of habit", also
called "inertia".

Once a word enters your vocabulary, you keep using it unless you have a
reason to change.  There are numerous possible reasons, e.g.
   1) you happen to like the new/slang/newly fashionable replacement
   2) even you admit the old term is archaic
   3) the old term becomes ambiguous or obscure
   4) the old term is no longer needed
   5) there is a change in technology, or other change in the item being
described, so that the old term no longer applies to what you want to discuss

"icebox" is a strong example of 5).  A refrigerator is quite a different item
from an icebox.  The former can include a freezer.  The latter cannot, and
requires the blatant presence of an iceman on a regular basis.  During the
changeover period (the 1930's and 1940's, I think) people had to use both
terms because both appliances were used and had to be distinguished.  Also,
perhaps not too incidentally, General Motors (who were the first to sell
refrigerators nationally) put a certain amount of advertising money behind
the word "refrigerator."

note that even in this age of the electric refrigerator, we still refer to
"icebox cookies"

as for "glasses", as Sage Hen points out, they are still available with glass
lenses, because glass does not scratch as easily as the polycarbonate plastic
widely used for corrective lenses.  (Polycarbonate is lighter and tougher,
which is why it has become so popular).  Since the changeover is still
incomplete, may never be complete, and has been gradual, and since it takes a
close inspection to distinguish glass from polycarbonate, there has been no
reason to stop using the term "glasses".  Also, the alternate term
"spectacles" is borderline archaic.

as for "broom", most 21st Century city-dwellers are unaware that there is
such a plant as "broom" and never have occasion to wonder what material is
used in that household utensil.  (A sweeping device I bought two weeks ago
was made from broom---I know this only because I happened to read the label.)
 Furthermore there is no usable synonym for "broom" meaning the
utensil---"besom" is so archaic as to be unrecognizable even to the average
ADS-L member.

So, both "broom" and "glasses" fail to generate a need for change under 3),
4), or 5) above.  Is it surprising that they are still in use?

(OT note: Benjamin Franklin not only invented the bifocal "spectacles", he
also developed broom corn, which is actually sorghum rather than maize.)

What about "tinfoil"?  There was a technological change, with foil made of
tin being replaced by aluminum foil, but a different piece of conservatism
was active here.  "Tin" in addition to meaning the element also has the
meaning in English of "thin, weak, flimsy", particularly when applied to
metallic items such as tinfoil.  Some examples: in the Civil War the Union
Navy built a number of arnored gunboats that had much thinner armor than
previous gunboats.  These new boats became known as "tinclads" even though
their armor was made of wrought iron.  And the Wizard of Oz (1900?)  has a
character known as "the tin woodsman" or "the Tinman" although he is
definitely made of iron rather than tin, since he rusts.  We still refer to a
sheet metal worker as a "tinsmith" although such an artisan never works in
sheet tin and some never work with tinplate.  Conclusion:  nobody every
popularized a synonym for "tin" meaning "flimsy" so to this day aluminum foil
is correctly referred to as "tinfoil" because it is flimsy.

Consider "steam roller" and "steam shovel".  Neither rollers nor shovels have
used steam for much of a century---even the celebrated "Ruissian steam
roller" has long since been Dieselized.  Yet to anyone except the operator of
construction equipment, the type of engine used in a power roller or a power
shovel is not particularly relevant---it's not like the electric
refrigerator, which eleminated the need for an iceman to deliver to your
house.

Now for some terms that have changed.

"Mongoloid idiot" and "Mongolism" --> Down's syndrome.  PC sometimes succeeds.

"Indian" --> "Native American"  only partially successful, although it is
needed (the owner of the company I work for is an Indian.  He is from Bombay.)

"Negro" --> "black" --> "African-American".  Here it was the people being
described who insisted on the changes.  It is very hard to remember that
until the mid-60's "Negro" WAS the PC term.

Victrola-->grammophone-->record
player-->phonograph-->stereo-->turntable-->oblivion.  This one I cannot
explain.  Edison named the thing "phonograph".  "Victrola" was a trade name,
long since abandoned.  "Stereo" represents a technological advance, from
monaural to stereophonic records.   I imagine that "turntable" became
necessary with the advent of stereo tapes etc.  The other changes may simply
have been fashion.  When did you last hear of a "hi-fi"?

Within the aviation business:

stewardess--> flight attendant.  probably has something to do with it ceasing
to be an all-female profession.

cockpit-->flight deck.  I think this was a euphemism introduced by the
airlines, who didn't want their passengers to think of fighter planes.

vertical stabilizer-->tail fin.  I suspect this was done solely as an
abbreviation.


Now for one that I am unsure of.  Growing up in Kentucky, I was used to
hearing asphalt (on a roadway) referred to as "blacktop".  I haven''t heard
"blacktop" in years.  Was it a regionalism?  Or was it a victim of
technological change, as there no longer is any great supply of gravel or
dirt roads left to be "blacktopped"?

      - Jim Landau


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Dec  6 20:52:31 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:52:31 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.155231.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's news to me that "blacktop" has faded anywhere.  It's certainly alive &
well up here in northern NY, and, I'm reasonably certain, in SW Ohio.  Both
places may (& up here certainly) still have  roads not yet paved, but even
after paving, maintenance requires re-blacktopping every now & then.
(Blacktop has the advantage of being easier to say than asphalt, too,
whether the
ASS FALT  or ASH FALT pronunciation is favored!)

Incidentally, I think the term that GM's advertising imprinted on the
American vocabulary was "Frigidaire."  Electric refrigerators were
generically referred to as frigidaires, whatever their actual brand, by
most people when I was a kid. We happened to have a monitor-top GE, which
we called "the icebox," even while  the real icebox still sat on the back
porch, serving as a supplementary cupboard.
A. Murie


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Dec  6 21:22:32 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:22:32 -0000
Subject: Frog in a hailstorm
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.212232.0000.>

A subscriber has asked me about "blink like a frog in a hailstorm",
which from a quick Google seems to be moderately well known. It's a
delightful expression. Frogs don't seem to do well weatherwise so far
as language is concerned - there's "frog strangler" as well, isn't
there, for heavy rain? Are these regional expressions in the US?


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Fri Dec  6 16:03:14 2002
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:03:14 -0000
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.160314.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An interesting article in (I think) a recent edition of Atlantic Monthly
pointed out in some detail that the South has already risen and in the
process has imposed at least three of its cultural centerpieces on the rest
of the country, to wit: the Baptist religion, NASCAR racing, and country
music.

Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Beverly Flanigan" <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 7:19 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


> I tell my students that this prejudice will change as power and money move
> southward, as they now are... the
> South shall rise again!
>
>>


From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Fri Dec  6 16:21:32 2002
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:21:32 -0000
Subject: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.162132.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Manual typewriters are still much in demand in third world areas and there
is a pretty decent market even for well used ones.

Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Abate" <abatefr at earthlink.net>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 10:17 AM
Subject: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing


> David and Bethany had the following exchange:
>
> >>
> On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, David Bowie wrote:
>
> >Incidentally, typewriters are still a serious necessity, even for those
of
> >us raised with dedicated word processors and then later PCs--if you have
to
> >fill out a pre-printed form, nothing beats a typewriter. For this reason,
>


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Dec  6 21:48:12 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:48:12 -0800
Subject: Frog in a hailstorm
In-Reply-To: <3DF11518.32403.1467495@localhost>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.134812.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I know "toad" for each of these: Blinkin' like a toad in a hailstorm, a
toad strangler. Both gleaned from my wife, who's from northern Arkansas.

PR

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Michael Quinion wrote:

> A subscriber has asked me about "blink like a frog in a hailstorm",
> as language is concerned - there's "frog strangler" as well, isn't


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Dec  6 21:55:35 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:55:35 -0500
Subject: Eastern Kentucky accent and UK accents
In-Reply-To: <sdf08651.096@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.165535.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:13 AM 12/6/2002 -0800, you wrote:
> >>> flanigan at OHIO.EDU 12/06/02 08:41AM >>>
>
> >>Hiring practices are a toughie.  Our ESL program refused, until just a few
> >>years ago, to hire anyone but native American English speakers of a
> >>"general" Northern/Midwestern accent--no Brits need apply!
>
>Didn't we just have the results of a perception test about 3 weeks ago in
>which it was determined that Texans are the most honest, etc, etc.?  Maybe
>Stephani should look through the archives and find the results of that
>investigation.  I don't know what her prof really meant or his attitudes,
>but those findings are surely food for thought for her.
>
>  >>My grad students jokingly call me Road Runner because of my fast
> Minnesota speech,
>
>That's very interesting, Beverly, because one of the stereotypes of MN
>speech is that it is very slooowww. Remember Howard Mohr's "How to Talk
>Minnesotan"? (At least I think it was Howard)
>Fritz

Both stereotypes are broadcast, you're right.  The fast one is based on the
idea that we have to talk fast to avoid letting too much cold air
in.  Ironically, the director of the ESL program here is also from
Minnesota (born in the same county I was, in fact--Yellow Medicine County;
make of that what you will), but he talks R-E-A-L-L-Y S-L-O-W.


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Dec  6 22:06:48 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 22:06:48 -0000
Subject: Frog in a hailstorm
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021206134712.28414M-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.220648.0000.>

> I know "toad" for each of these: Blinkin' like a toad in a
> hailstorm, a toad strangler. Both gleaned from my wife, who's from
> northern Arkansas.

Thanks. Yes, Google has some of those, too. Confusingly, "like a
toad in a RAINstorm" turns up in a school idiom glossary where it is
defined as "that empty, goggle-eyed stare that you get from someone
when they don't understand what you are saying". I don't want us all
to get in so deep here that we can't escape again, but could that
possibly be true?


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Dec  6 22:24:36 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:24:36 -0800
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <1ba.a597009.2b225b9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.142436.0800.>

> Now for one that I am unsure of.  Growing up in Kentucky, I
> was used to hearing asphalt (on a roadway) referred to as
> "blacktop".  I haven''t heard "blacktop" in years.  Was it
> a regionalism?  Or was it a victim of technological change,
> as there no longer is any great supply of gravel or dirt
> roads left to be "blacktopped"?

The term wasn't limited to Kentucky. I recall it growing up in southern New
Jersey. I also haven't heard it for years, but I don't know whether that is
because the term is fading or because I just haven't noticed its use.


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Fri Dec  6 22:44:32 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:44:32 -0800
Subject: Icebox lives on
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.144432.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about 'pigskin' and 'sheepskin'? Maybe even 'cavalry' when referring to helicopters fits into this.
Fritz

>>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU 12/06/02 11:42AM >>>
At 12:48 PM -0500 12/6/02, sagehen wrote:
>  Larry writes:
>>I think the idea was that brooms aren't made from broom any longer,
>>nor are glasses made from glass, but we still call them by those
>>names.
>>
>>L
>~~~~~~
>Not entirely true.  I still buy brooms made from broom corn, and my glasses
>have glass lenses (which I specify, since the plastic ones scratch far too
>readily).
>A.Murie

Sorry, I meant "not necessarily".  Our use of "broom" and "glasses"
is synchronically unrelated to what specific instances of these items
are made of.  Similarly "wood" (for the golf club) and "rubber'.
(Compare "cheese" or "cream" which some of us are reluctant to extend
to the imitation versions.)

L


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Dec  6 22:48:51 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:48:51 -0500
Subject: Bougie/Bourgie
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212061317220.77669293-100000@shell01.TheWor
 ld.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.174851.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>#I've run into the word "bougie" many times ... but it doesn't mean
>#"bourgeois" to me.
>#
>#Is/was the double-entendre intended?
>
>Double entendre?

"Bougie" (/buZi/ or /budZi/, not like "boogie-woogie" AFAIK):

AHD4:

"1. Medicine a. A slender, flexible, cylindrical instrument that is
inserted into a bodily canal, such as the urethra, to dilate, examine, or
medicate."

This is actually how I would recognize the word (especially with regard to
dilation of the esophagus), but maybe it's medical jargon.

"b. See suppository."

I haven't heard this "bougie" for years, and I can't remember where I
encountered it. Is it medical jargon (perhaps obsolete) or is/was it
commonly used in lay English? If the latter, I suppose it could provide a
humorously derogatory or perhaps harmlessly frivolous intentional
deformation of "bourgeois".

"2. A wax candle."

I've never heard this one myself AFAIK.

-- Doug Wilson


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Dec  6 23:01:34 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:01:34 -0800
Subject: Frog in a hailstorm
In-Reply-To: <3DF11F78.14214.16EFC8A@localhost>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.150134.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Thanks. Yes, Google has some of those, too. Confusingly, "like a
> toad in a RAINstorm" turns up in a school idiom glossary where it is
> defined as "that empty, goggle-eyed stare that you get from someone
> when they don't understand what you are saying". I don't want us all
> to get in so deep here that we can't escape again, but could that
> possibly be true?

Gosh, I have another picture in mind: not a blank stare, but an animal
that's blinking so fast he gets blisters on his eyeballs.

PR


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec  6 23:04:08 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 18:04:08 -0500
Subject: FW: Obsolete term: touch typing
In-Reply-To: <00b301c29d45$fcc26de0$3ed513d0@fitzke>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.180408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Bob Fitzke wrote:

#Manual typewriters are still much in demand in third world areas and there
#is a pretty decent market even for well used ones.

Yeah.... they don't need electricity!

-- Mark A. Mandel


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Dec  6 23:07:15 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:07:15 -0800
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <000001c29d76$42d9b1a0$0300a8c0@HPN5290>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.150715.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > "blacktop".  I haven''t heard "blacktop" in years.  Was it
> > a regionalism?  Or was it a victim of technological change,
> > as there no longer is any great supply of gravel or dirt
> > roads left to be "blacktopped"?
>
> The term wasn't limited to Kentucky. I recall it growing up in southern New
> Jersey. I also haven't heard it for years, but I don't know whether that is
> because the term is fading or because I just haven't noticed its use.

Same for Illinois in the 50s. I wouldn't blink a toad's eye if I heard it
today, though, even if it might sound odd to others. My mother,
incidentally, would have said "macadam," even if that's strictly something
different from blacktop/asphalt. (She was from Portland, where there's
still a street named Macadam--whether after the famous Scot or not, I
don't know, but I doubt it was named after its material; just imagine "I
live on Concrete Street.")

PR


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Dec  6 23:16:55 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:16:55 -0800
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021206150216.28414P-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.151655.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I hear "blacktop" fairly often usually in connection with someone having a
driveway, parking lot or some other small project paved. Asphalt
(pronounced while I was growing up in Portland as something closer to
AZ-falt rather than ASS-falt) seems to be applied to bigger projects like
roads, highways, etc. But then again, perhaps I'm making a distinction
without a difference.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Peter Richardson wrote:
>
> Same for Illinois in the 50s. I wouldn't blink a toad's eye if I heard it
> today, though, even if it might sound odd to others. My mother,
> incidentally, would have said "macadam," even if that's strictly something
> different from blacktop/asphalt. (She was from Portland, where there's
> still a street named Macadam--whether after the famous Scot or not, I
> don't know, but I doubt it was named after its material; just imagine "I
> live on Concrete Street.")
>
> PR
>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Dec  6 23:34:20 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:34:20 -0800
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021206150216.28414P-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.153420.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Friday, December 6, 2002 3:07 PM -0800 Peter Richardson
<prichard at linfield.edu> wrote:

>
> Same for Illinois in the 50s. I wouldn't blink a toad's eye if I heard it
> today, though, even if it might sound odd to others. My mother,
> incidentally, would have said "macadam," even if that's strictly something
> different from blacktop/asphalt. (She was from Portland, where there's
> still a street named Macadam--whether after the famous Scot or not, I
> don't know, but I doubt it was named after its material; just imagine "I
> live on Concrete Street.")
>
> PR

I've always called it blacktop and still would today if the subject
happened to come up.  A note on "macadam": my grandmother and the great
aunt who lived in Oregon told about teasing their sister (who lived in
Oklahoma like my grandmother) for calling that street "MacaDAM."  So
apparently the term was unfamiliar to her, whether because it was new then
or because it was used in Oregon but not, or at least not colloquially, in
Oklahoma.

Peter Mc.

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec  7 01:05:56 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 20:05:56 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <00b101c29d45$fb2f98e0$3ed513d0@fitzke>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.200556.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:03 PM +0000 12/6/02, Bob Fitzke wrote:
>An interesting article in (I think) a recent edition of Atlantic Monthly
>pointed out in some detail that the South has already risen and in the
>process has imposed at least three of its cultural centerpieces on the rest
>of the country, to wit: the Baptist religion, NASCAR racing, and country
>music.
>
And the Lord, in His wisdom and mercy, grants us an a la carte menu
so we get to pick and choose which of these impositions we accept.

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec  7 02:05:08 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:05:08 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <1ba.a597009.2b225b9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.210508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In a message dated 12/6/02 12:44:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes:
>
>>   Larry writes:
>>   >I think the idea was that brooms aren't made from broom any longer,
>>   >nor are glasses made from glass, but we still call them by those
>>   >names.
>>   ~~~~~~
>>   Not entirely true.  I still buy brooms made from broom corn, and my glasses
>>   have glass lenses (which I specify, since the plastic ones scratch far too
>>   readily).
>
>The process being discussed here is nothing more than "force of habit", also
>called "inertia".

I think there is something more than inertia going on--this is, in
the interesting cases, a classic instance of semantic change of the
same type we have in "bead" or "horn".  A word that originally refers
directly to a given object or material A is characteristically used
in certain contexts that contain a feature B, and later generations
reinterpret the word to refer directly to B (whether or not the
original composition A is present).  Thus A > A(B) > (A)B > B.

>
>Once a word enters your vocabulary, you keep using it unless you have a
>reason to change.  There are numerous possible reasons, e.g.
>    1) you happen to like the new/slang/newly fashionable replacement
>    2) even you admit the old term is archaic
>    3) the old term becomes ambiguous or obscure
>    4) the old term is no longer needed
>    5) there is a change in technology, or other change in the item being
>described, so that the old term no longer applies to what you want to discuss

I'd draw the boundary in a different place:  either the object
remains essentially the same but a new term is introduced (alongside
or replacing the original) or the term remains the same but the
referent or reference changes (see the "bead" case above).  Or of
course both change.  So for me, it's immaterial whether there are any
glasses anywhere made of glass rather than plastic.  And I suspect
that when and if the last pair of spectacles made from glass breaks,
they'll still be called glasses, not (e.g.) plastics.  Are there any
rubbers (the condom, not galoshes type) made of rubber?  I have no
idea.  But latex, lambskin, whatever, they're rubbers.  And same with
galoshes, whatever THEY end up getting made of.

>
>"icebox" is a strong example of 5).  A refrigerator is quite a different item
>from an icebox.  The former can include a freezer.  The latter cannot, and
>requires the blatant presence of an iceman on a regular basis.  During the
>changeover period (the 1930's and 1940's, I think) people had to use both
>terms because both appliances were used and had to be distinguished.  Also,
>perhaps not too incidentally, General Motors (who were the first to sell
>refrigerators nationally) put a certain amount of advertising money behind
>the word "refrigerator."

Frigidiare, I think.  Whence "fridge", although I suppose that could
also have come from "refrigerator".  The OED is open-minded about
which was the direct ancestor.

>as for "glasses", as Sage Hen points out, they are still available with glass
>lenses, because glass does not scratch as easily as the polycarbonate plastic
>widely used for corrective lenses.  (Polycarbonate is lighter and tougher,
>which is why it has become so popular).  Since the changeover is still
>incomplete, may never be complete, and has been gradual, and since it takes a
>close inspection to distinguish glass from polycarbonate, there has been no
>reason to stop using the term "glasses".

As mentioned, I think this (the completeness of the changeover) is
irrelevant.  We'll go on calling them glasses anyway, although some
day we may no longer remember why.  (See the related argument by
Putnam about how we went on calling water "water" even when we
changed our mind about water really is.  In that case, water remained
unchanged, but our theories changed.  In the case of glasses or
rubbers it's the composition of the object that changed, but the term
is now understood functionally rather than structurally (as with
horns made of brass rather than animal appendages).

>as for "broom", most 21st Century city-dwellers are unaware that there is
>such a plant as "broom" and never have occasion to wonder what material is
>used in that household utensil.

Exactly.  And in fact brooms could be made of all sorts of things and
still be brooms.

>So, both "broom" and "glasses" fail to generate a need for change under 3),
>4), or 5) above.  Is it surprising that they are still in use?
>

"Horn" is still in use for the musical instrument, although the word
has other applications (as do "glasses", "rubber", etc.), and
although none of them (at least the French kind) are made from animal
horn.

>What about "tinfoil"?  There was a technological change, with foil made of
>tin being replaced by aluminum foil, but a different piece of conservatism
>was active here.  "Tin" in addition to meaning the element also has the
>meaning in English of "thin, weak, flimsy", particularly when applied to
>metallic items such as tinfoil.

Could be.  I think it's equally relevant that "tin foil" is easier to
say (a shorter word for a frequently referred to item, as Zipf would
point out) than "aluminum foil".  I'm not sure how much more
explanation we need for the retention of the term.

>  Some examples: in the Civil War the Union
>Navy built a number of arnored gunboats that had much thinner armor than
>previous gunboats.  These new boats became known as "tinclads" even though
>their armor was made of wrought iron.  And the Wizard of Oz (1900?)  has a
>character known as "the tin woodsman" or "the Tinman" although he is
>definitely made of iron rather than tin, since he rusts.  We still refer to a
>sheet metal worker as a "tinsmith" although such an artisan never works in
>sheet tin and some never work with tinplate.  Conclusion:  nobody every
>popularized a synonym for "tin" meaning "flimsy" so to this day aluminum foil
>is correctly referred to as "tinfoil" because it is flimsy.
>
>Consider "steam roller" and "steam shovel".  Neither rollers nor shovels have
>used steam for much of a century---even the celebrated "Ruissian steam
>roller" has long since been Dieselized.  Yet to anyone except the operator of
>construction equipment, the type of engine used in a power roller or a power
>shovel is not particularly relevant---it's not like the electric
>refrigerator, which eleminated the need for an iceman to deliver to your
>house.
>
>Now for some terms that have changed.

Right--these are cases where the referent has remained the same but
the term has changed, for reasons you point out.  Except that
turntables are back in, with a vengeance.  They're also (still/again)
called record players.  They're big in the DJ world, where vinyl
discs are intentionally scratched for effect. (My son got his twin DJ
turntables through e-Bay, and there are plenty more such pairs where
they came from.)  But there's also a generation (or at least that
subpart of it to which my 18- year-old daughter belongs) who believe
that vinyl discs are "warmer" than CDs--anyway, she has a request in
for one for Christmas, and I see they are indeed being marketed for
the non-DJ crowd.

--larry

>
>"Mongoloid idiot" and "Mongolism" --> Down's syndrome.  PC sometimes succeeds.
>
>"Indian" --> "Native American"  only partially successful, although it is
>needed (the owner of the company I work for is an Indian.  He is from Bombay.)
>
>"Negro" --> "black" --> "African-American".  Here it was the people being
>described who insisted on the changes.  It is very hard to remember that
>until the mid-60's "Negro" WAS the PC term.
>
>Victrola-->grammophone-->record
>player-->phonograph-->stereo-->turntable-->oblivion.  This one I cannot
>explain.  Edison named the thing "phonograph".  "Victrola" was a trade name,
>long since abandoned.  "Stereo" represents a technological advance, from
>monaural to stereophonic records.   I imagine that "turntable" became
>necessary with the advent of stereo tapes etc.  The other changes may simply
>have been fashion.  When did you last hear of a "hi-fi"?
>
>Within the aviation business:
>
>stewardess--> flight attendant.  probably has something to do with it ceasing
>to be an all-female profession.
>
>cockpit-->flight deck.  I think this was a euphemism introduced by the
>airlines, who didn't want their passengers to think of fighter planes.
>
>vertical stabilizer-->tail fin.  I suspect this was done solely as an
>abbreviation.
>
>
>Now for one that I am unsure of.  Growing up in Kentucky, I was used to
>hearing asphalt (on a roadway) referred to as "blacktop".  I haven''t heard
>"blacktop" in years.  Was it a regionalism?  Or was it a victim of
>technological change, as there no longer is any great supply of gravel or
>dirt roads left to be "blacktopped"?
>
>       - Jim Landau


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Sat Dec  7 02:08:04 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:08:04 EST
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.210804.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE has an extensive entry for "macadam," complete with map: it's chiefly
Northeast, MidAtlantic, and North Central (esp. Ohio) for this definition:
"originally a road pavement made of layers of packed crushed rock, sometimes
strengthened by applying a bituminous binder; now usually blacktop or a
similar paving material."
No entry for "blacktop," presumably because the editors didn't consider that
term regional. - Allan Metcalf


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Sat Dec  7 02:08:06 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:08:06 EST
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.210806.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another aspect of Southern culture that has spread nationwide: we all say
"hey."
- Allan Metcalf


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec  7 02:27:46 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:27:46 -0500
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <1ba.a597009.2b225b9c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.212746.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

P.S.  Now that I've reread Jim's message next to mine, I see that I'm
not saying something all THAT different, but I do think the notion of
"inertia" he points to is more complicated, and that the reanalysis
factor (when a word is understood to refer to different properties,
and thus potentially to different objects, from what it originally
did) is more significant that it's usually given credit for.  I think
that example with "bead" moving from 'prayer (often kept track of
with little wooden stringable balls)' to 'little balls made of wood,
plastic, or whatever' made a big impression on me, as did the history
of my own last name.  As far as glasses, rubbers, etc. go, one nice
indication of referential change is the retronymic clone:  "GLASS
glasses", "RUBBER rubbers", "WOOD wood" (in golf), etc.

Larry


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Sat Dec  7 05:24:25 2002
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:24:25 -0600
Subject: Gene McCarthy on Jimmy Carter (was: Teaching with a Kentucky
 Accent)
In-Reply-To: <20021207050115.51A2A4C6C@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.232425.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Date sent:              Sat, 7 Dec 2002 00:01:13 -0500
Send reply to:          American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
From:                   Automatic digest processor
<LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject:                ADS-L Digest - 5 Dec 2002 to 6 Dec 2002 (#2002-315)
To:                     Recipients of ADS-L digests <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Date:    Fri, 6 Dec 2002 13:14:37 -0500
> From:    Mark A Mandel <mam at THEWORLD.COM>
> Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>
>         [Dan Goodman -- Bev, your reply attributes this as "you said"]
> #>Eugene McCarthy has been quoted as saying "I would not entrust Jimmy
> #>Carter and his band of merry men with the job of snake control in
> #>Ireland."
>
>         [Beverly Flanigan]
> #Yes, alas, Gene McCarthy (who I campaigned for in my old Minnesota
> #days) fell prey to elitism. . . .
>
> Excuse me, but where does that quotation imply any connection with
> Jimmy Carter's accent or region of origin? There are lots and lots of
> reasons for one politician to put down another one, and some of them
> are even legitimate.
>
The post I replied to said that no one had called Jimmy Carter (among
 others) dumb.  I gave a counter-example.


From krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU  Sat Dec  7 06:11:41 2002
From: krahnke at LAMAR.COLOSTATE.EDU (Karl Krahnke)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:11:41 -0700
Subject: Research on second dialect acquisition
Message-ID: <FRI.6.DEC.2002.231141.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Although I do quite a bit of work in the area of  regional dialect and even
pronunciation teaching (when forced), I have never looked hard for research
evidence, descriptive or experimental, on the difficulty or ease of
different/second dialect  acquisition. Like Beverly Flanigan, I have
assumed it was difficult and rare, but I have not come across research that
looks specifically at that phenomenon. There are no references to it in
Rosina Lippi-Green's _English with an Accent_, which is one place I would
expect to find some references. Could someone help me by pointing me to
specific studies on that specific question?

I am also doing some work on regulation and judgment of language in the
context of employment. A basic legal issue there is whether and to what
degree language is a "mutable characteristic." I am not aware of compelling
evidence that accent, for one, is not mutable, though I would certainly
like to think that is generally the case.

So, again, any suggestions would be helpful. (I'll of course look on my own
also.)

Karl Krahnke
Colorado State University


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec  7 08:02:56 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 03:02:56 EST
Subject: DARE articles; Philpy; Beggar's Purse (1984)
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.030256.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE ARTICLES

   There's a nice December 4th article about DARE in the CHICAGO SUN-TIMES.
Google for "Chicago lingo" and "DARE" or go directly to www.suntimes.com.
   This Sunday's William Safire column's "gifts of gab" book roundup mentions
DARE and Allan Metcalf's latest.
   I just went to the ADS web site and clicked on the DARE link.  I got a
pop-up ad for Pepto Bismol.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
PHILPY

   Philpy, where are ye?  From John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD
AND DRINK (1999):

_philpy._  A South Carolina rice bread.  The name is of obscure origins.

   That's it.  No further explanation.  No date.  A recipe follows.
   So I opened my new DARE VOLUME IV P-SK and there's...nothing!!!!!
   So I opened my trusty SOUTHERN FOOD: AT HOME, ON THE ROAD, IN HISTORY
(University of North Carolina Press, 1993) by John Egerton.  Also nothing!
   A Google check says that it dates from before the Civil War.  I didn't
spot it on any Making of America database.  I'm away from the other databases
right now.  Could there be a different spelling?
   I spotted "philpy" in an index to AMERICAN COOKERY, June-July 1933-May
1934, pg. 96.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BEGGAR'S PURSE

   The Quilted Giraffe, 955 Second Avenue (between 50th and 51st Streets),
got a rare four-star review (highest rating) from NEW YORK TIMES critic
Marian Burros.  Mariani includes "beggar's purse," and I found the restaurant
review on the full text search.  Barry Wine is the restaurant owner.


   20 January 1984, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. C14:
   Beggar's purses, Mr. Wine's seductive signature dish, carries a $20
supplement but is absolutely irresistible: Beluga caviar and creme fraiche
wrapped in the most delicate of tiny crepes and tied, like a hobo's sack,
with chives, perched on a bed of lemon slices, which adds a lovely acid
balance to the caviar.  And when the restaurant serves truffles, brought to
the table in baskets to tempt diners with their heady fragrance, the portion
is generous enough to suffuse the dish with the same perfume and flavor.

(Why is it called "beggar's purses" if it costs so much?--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec  7 09:03:21 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 04:03:21 EST
Subject: Jalapeno (1924)
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.040321.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I'm still working on "jalapeno."  These things take time.  Please, it's
the New York Public Library we're talking about here.
   I didn't find it easily on Thursday, but I'm trying this book.  It is, all
together now--OFF-SITE.  I'll list it here in case I die before the book
arrives.
   "Jalapeno" is one of our most important foods (as opposed to, say,
"philpy") and the OED's first citations are 1949 and 1964.



Call #  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cTAH+(Schnitzler%2C+H.+Republic+of+Mexico%2C+its+agriculture%2C+commerce+%26+industries)/ctah+schnitzler+h+republic+of+mexico+its+agriculture+commerce+and+industries/-5,-1,0,E/2browse">TAH (Schnitzler, H. Republic of Mexico, its agriculture, commerce &
industries)</A>
Author  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aSchnitzler%2C+Hermann%2C/aschnitzler+hermann/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Schnitzler, Hermann, ed.</A>
Title   The republic of Mexico, its agriculture, commerce & industries; a
handbook of information based upon exhaustive research work carried on in the
different sections of Mexico by a staff of experts. Compiled and edited by
Hermann Schnitzler.
Imprint New York, N. L. Brown, 1924.


LOCATION    CALL NO.    STATUS
<A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/screens/offsitehome.html">OFFSITE</A>      <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cTAH+(Schnitzler%2C+H.+Republic+of+Mexico%2C+its+agriculture%2C+commerce+%26+industries)/ctah+schnitzler+h+republic+of+mexico+its+agriculture+commerce+and+industries/-5,-1,,E/browse">TAH (Schnitzler, H. Republic of Mexico, its agriculture,
commerce & industries)</A>        AVAILABLE
Location    SIBL
Descript    637 p. front. (fold. map) 22cm.
Series  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/tLibrary+of+Latin-American+information/tlibrary+of+latin-american+information/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Library of Latin-American information</A>
Note    Appendix I: Alphabetical list of archaeological ruins.
    Appendix II: Alphabetical list of the plants, fruits and trees of
commercial or industrial use mentioned in ... this book.
Subject <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/dMexico./dmexico/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Mexico.</A>
    <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/dMexico+--+Economic+conditions+--+1918-/dmexico+economic+conditions+1918-/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Mexico -- Economic conditions -- 1918-</A>
    <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/dAgriculture+--+Mexico./dagriculture+mexico/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Agriculture -- Mexico.</A>
    <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/dMexico+--+Antiquities./dmexico+antiquities/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Mexico -- Antiquities.</A>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec  7 10:53:49 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 05:53:49 EST
Subject: Break a leg
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.055349.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The New York Public Library's Lincoln Center Performing Arts Library is
open until 8 p.m. on Thursdays.  Two days ago I left the 42nd Street library
when that closed at 5:45 p.m., and immediately headed to 66th Street and
Lincoln Center.  I was starting to do my work when I was told that they were
closing early at 6:30 p.m. because of the snowstorm.  I couldn't do
everything in five minutes.

Wilfred, Granville, A DICTIONARY OF THEATRICAL TERMS (1952).
Pg. 32:  _break_  (2) The American cooloquial sense of "fortune": "So and so
had a lucky _break_ in the Broadway show last fall."

Trapido, Joel, AN INTERNATIONAL DICTIONARY OF THEATRE LANGUAGE (1985).
"Break a leg" is here, but it's nothing special.

Wilmeth, Don B., THE LANGUAGE OF AMERICAN POPULAR ENTERTAINMENT (1981).
"Break a leg" is here, but it's nothing special.

Harrison, Martin, THE LANGUAGE OF THE THEATRE (1993, 1996)
"Break a leg" is here, but it's nothing special.

Buchanan, Barry, ENCYCLOPEDIA OF THE SHOW WORLD (1939, unpublished)
I copied the note cards in Carnegie Mellon, but it was a rush job and I'm
missing some parts.  Here's one card:
break   CARNIVAL
Same as go wrong (which see).  Also, slang for a fortunate happening; a
change in luck for the better, i. e., I got a swell break.  Conversely a bad
break means bad luck.  Also, an intermission in a show.

University of Missouri-Columbia, Western Historical Manuscript Collection,
Peter Tamony Papers
"Break a leg" is here.  I got the below response that the query will cost me
$20.  Twenty dollars is twenty dollars more than I've made from etymology all
year, but I'll pay it if anyone's interested.

Subj:   Reference Request
Date:   12/5/2002 4:05:03 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:StolzW at umsystem.edu">StolzW at umsystem.edu</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Barry Popik
Bapopik at aol.com

Dear Mr. Popik,

David Moore has forwarded your request of December 4 to the reference staff.
Please note that effective October 1, 2002, a research fee was instituted by
the Western Historical Manuscript Collection-Columbia. The reference staff
will search the subject index and collection inventories free of charge, but
a non-refundable research fee of $20 is required before we can search the
actual collection and/or make reproductions. In the case of the Tamony
collection the staff will search for up to three phrases or words per
request. A check or money order, made payable to the University of Missouri,
can be mailed to the address below. The fee also includes up to 10
photocopies. The fees for additional photocopies are as follows:

1-200 copies (per page)        $0.20
201-500 copies (per page)    $0.35
501-1000 copies (per page)    $0.50
1001 and over (per page)        $1.00
*All orders include additional charges for shipping.

Once the search is complete you will be notified of all findings and any
additional costs. As in the past, the Tamony collection can be viewed
anytime, free of charge, by visiting our facility located in 23 Ellis Library
on the University of Missouri-Columbia campus.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions regarding the
research fee or the Tamony collection.

Sincerely,

William T. Stolz
Manuscript Specialist
stolzw at umsystem.edu

WHMC-Columbia
23 Ellis Library
University of Missouri
Columbia, MO 65201


From martineze at COFC.EDU  Sat Dec  7 10:46:43 2002
From: martineze at COFC.EDU (Elizabeth Martineze-Gibson)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 05:46:43 -0500
Subject: Those ones
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.054643.0500.>

I am glad this came up. I wondered if this is dialectal. I've heard this
on many occasions here in Charleston, SC. Coming from the Northeast and
having lived in Florida prior to this I never heard "those ones" before
and when I did, it just didn't sound right to me. But I hear it often
here in Charleston.
I would be interested in knowing if this occurs in other parts of the US
as a regular phenomenon.

Liz Martinez

On Fri, 06 Dec 2002 10:09:45 -0800 Ed Keer wrote:

> --- Dodi Schultz <SCHULTZ at COMPUSERVE.COM> wrote:
> > Ed Keer asks for opinions on:
> >
> >   >> I like these cars much better than those ones.
> >
> > The word "ones" is superfluous; the sentence is
> > therefore clumsy.
>
>
> I agree. But, I wonder why it's superfluous when a
> sentence like:
>
> I like this car much better than that one.
>
> is fine. I could imagine a generative syntax/semantics
> analysis. Just wondering if anyone was aware of any
> work on it.
>
> Also, it seems that "those ones" was perfectly fine in
> earlier English, at least according to Jespersen. So
> is this new?
>
> Ed
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Dec  7 15:40:59 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 10:40:59 -0500
Subject: Research on second dialect acquisition
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021206230859.00a9fec0@lamar.colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.104059.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Look at Trydgill's Dialects in Contact (which summarizes much of his
and Jack Chambers' work on this topic, as well as Payne's in King of
Prussia, PA). More recently, an MSU team has completed an NSF study
of acquisition of the Northern Cities Shift variety by African
Americans, rural Michiganders, and Appalachian immigrants. There are
several publications (and dissertations) for the interested.

dInIs



Although I do quite a bit of work in the area of  regional dialect and even
pronunciation teaching (when forced), I have never looked hard for research
evidence, descriptive or experimental, on the difficulty or ease of
different/second dialect  acquisition. Like Beverly Flanigan, I have
assumed it was difficult and rare, but I have not come across research that
looks specifically at that phenomenon. There are no references to it in
Rosina Lippi-Green's _English with an Accent_, which is one place I would
expect to find some references. Could someone help me by pointing me to
specific studies on that specific question?

I am also doing some work on regulation and judgment of language in the
context of employment. A basic legal issue there is whether and to what
degree language is a "mutable characteristic." I am not aware of compelling
evidence that accent, for one, is not mutable, though I would certainly
like to think that is generally the case.

So, again, any suggestions would be helpful. (I'll of course look on my own
also.)

Karl Krahnke
Colorado State University

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Dec  7 15:51:22 2002
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 07:51:22 -0800
Subject: Research on second dialect acquisition
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.075122.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs sez, in a helpful reply about references:

 >Look at Trydgill's Dialects in Contact...

despite peter trudgill's field work in norway, his vowels
have not get shifted.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sat Dec  7 16:18:05 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 11:18:05 -0500
Subject: DARE articles; Philpy; Beggar's Purse (1984)
In-Reply-To: <192.11d9a6f8.2b230530@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.111805.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Le Saturday, 7 Dec 2002, ? 03:02 America/New_York, Bapopik at AOL.COM a
?crit :
>    I just went to the ADS web site and clicked on the DARE link.  I
> got a
> pop-up ad for Pepto Bismol.

I recommend that you check your computer for piggyback programs such as
Gator which throw up advertisements regardless of which site you are
visiting. Also, it is a common trick for sites to initiate delayed
pop-ups, which sit in reserve for a number of minutes, hours, or days,
and then pop-up an advertisement. This makes it more difficult for
visitors to pinpoint the offending site.


--
Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
Make It Work: Small Business Computer Support in New York City
http://www.worldnewyork.org/


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Sat Dec  7 16:38:46 2002
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 11:38:46 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <1a6.d30520a.2b22b206@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.113846.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You mean as a greeting variant of "hi"?  Did the older usage (the
exclamatory one) come from the South too?  I don't use it for greeting, but
my son (33) has started to do so recently; I guess it's the 30-somethings
and on down who use it, right?

At 09:08 PM 12/6/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Another aspect of Southern culture that has spread nationwide: we all say
>"hey."
>- Allan Metcalf


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Sat Dec  7 16:34:01 2002
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 11:34:01 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <20.3fa1952.2b22b204@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.113401.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wasn't the National Road (now US 40) the first macadamized road?  Since it
was so important to the settlement of the Northwest Territory, that might
explain its longtime use in Ohio (though it's probably not used much anymore?).

At 09:08 PM 12/6/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>DARE has an extensive entry for "macadam," complete with map: it's chiefly
>Northeast, MidAtlantic, and North Central (esp. Ohio) for this definition:
>"originally a road pavement made of layers of packed crushed rock, sometimes
>strengthened by applying a bituminous binder; now usually blacktop or a
>similar paving material."
>No entry for "blacktop," presumably because the editors didn't consider that
>term regional. - Allan Metcalf


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Dec  7 18:27:39 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 12:27:39 -0600
Subject: Barry Popik spots Yanigan in 1895, 1896
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.122739.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From: "Peter Morris" <moxbib at voyager.net>
>Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:52:36 -0500
>Subject: RE: [19cBB] yanigans
>Reply-To: 19cBB at yahoogroups.com
>
>Lee Allen's The Hot Stove League is the earliest source I can find that
>attributes the coinage of "Yannigans" to Jerry Denny in 1884.  No doubt
>Allen picked it up from a note somewhere, and possibly a check of Denny's
>file at Cooperstown would have the note.  However, while I have great
>respect for Allen, I'm very skeptical that Yannigans was coined in 1884
>since there is no evidence of its appearing in print until over a decade
>later.
>
>Peter Morris

****

Below my signoff is a recent posting by attorney/word sleuth Barry
Popik to the American Dialect Society:

Jerry Cohen
member of 19cBB and American Dialect Society


>Date:         Thu, 5 Dec 2002 20:28:10 EST
>From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Subject:      Yanigan (1895)
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>    I didn't have much time today to research the Philadelphia and Baltimore
>newspapers.  I'll try again on Saturday.  There's no rush--the DICTIONARY OF
>AMERICAN REGIONAL ENGLISH and the HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG
>still aren't at "Y."
>    1894 was not read.  I didn't see the term in Baltimore in 1895, but I
>looked very quickly.
>
>
>    26 March 1895, PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER, pg. 6, col. 1:
>    The first or regular team of the Philadelphia Club rather rubbed it in on
>the second or "Yanigan" nine this afternoon, and this evening Mike Grady has
>been endeavoring to figure out how it all happened.
>
>    21 March 1896, THE SUN (Baltimore), pg. 6, col. 4:
>_Regulars and Yanigans of the Baltimore Team._


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Dec  7 19:00:32 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:00:32 -0600
Subject: Research fees at Western Historical Manuscript Collection
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.130032.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry,

     I'm troubled to read about the imposition of a research fee at
the WHMC in Columbia, MO--a step out of keeping with the very
helpful, inexpensive services which WHMC has offered all along. (I
consider the staff there among the finest people I have met.)

    I haven't checked into the reason for the new fees but really
don't have to.  Missouri is in the midst of a severe budgetary
crisis, and the governor has made public higher education his
favorite target for budget cuts.  WHMC must be feeling the budgetary
pressure too.

     Your research is enormously valuable. I have a little credit
built up at WHMC and shall very willingly split the "break a leg"
research costs with you.
I'll send Bill Stolz an e-mail about this right away.

Jerry


At 5:53 AM -0500 12/7/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>University of Missouri-Columbia, Western Historical Manuscript Collection,
>Peter Tamony Papers
>"Break a leg" is here.  I got the below response that the query will cost me
>$20.  Twenty dollars is twenty dollars more than I've made from etymology all
>year, but I'll pay it if anyone's interested.
>
>Subj:   Reference Request
>Date:   12/5/2002 4:05:03 PM Eastern Standard Time
>From:   <A HREF="mailto:StolzW at umsystem.edu">StolzW at umsystem.edu</A>
>To: <A HREF="mailto:Bapopik at aol.com">Bapopik at aol.com</A>
>Sent from the Internet (Details)
>
>Barry Popik
>Bapopik at aol.com
>
>Dear Mr. Popik,
>
>David Moore has forwarded your request of December 4 to the reference staff.
>Please note that effective October 1, 2002, a research fee was instituted by
>the Western Historical Manuscript Collection-Columbia. The reference staff
>will search the subject index and collection inventories free of charge, but
>a non-refundable research fee of $20 is required before we can search the
>actual collection and/or make reproductions. In the case of the Tamony
>collection the staff will search for up to three phrases or words per
>request. A check or money order, made payable to the University of Missouri,
>can be mailed to the address below. The fee also includes up to 10
>photocopies. The fees for additional photocopies are as follows:
>
>1-200 copies (per page)        $0.20
>201-500 copies (per page)    $0.35
>501-1000 copies (per page)    $0.50
>1001 and over (per page)        $1.00
>*All orders include additional charges for shipping.
>
>Once the search is complete you will be notified of all findings and any
>additional costs. As in the past, the Tamony collection can be viewed
>anytime, free of charge, by visiting our facility located in 23 Ellis Library
>on the University of Missouri-Columbia campus.
>
>Please let me know if you have any additional questions regarding the
>research fee or the Tamony collection.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>William T. Stolz
>Manuscript Specialist
>stolzw at umsystem.edu
>
>WHMC-Columbia
>23 Ellis Library
>University of Missouri
>Columbia, MO 65201


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Sat Dec  7 21:12:36 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 21:12:36 -0000
Subject: Research fees at Western Historical Manuscript Collection
In-Reply-To: <p04310102ba17eed9b11b@[131.151.65.37]>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.211236.0000.>

> Your research is enormously valuable. I have a little credit built
> up at WHMC and shall very willingly split the "break a leg"
> research costs with you. I'll send Bill Stolz an e-mail about this
> right away.

Since I started the whole "break a leg" hare running, it's only fair
that I should pay the other half. If Barry will contact me privately
to give me his street address, I'll post an appropriate sum to him on
Monday.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sun Dec  8 01:43:26 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 20:43:26 -0500
Subject: Research on second dialect acquisition
In-Reply-To: <200212071551.gB7FpMl17444@Turing.Stanford.EDU>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.204326.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dang. If I'da only said Trodgill (or even Trawdgill) I'da been closer
to what he says (at least).

Sorry arnold.

dInIs





dInIs sez, in a helpful reply about references:

  >Look at Trydgill's Dialects in Contact...

despite peter trudgill's field work in norway, his vowels
have not get shifted.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Dec  8 07:18:58 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 23:18:58 -0800
Subject: Icebox lives on
In-Reply-To: <l03130305ba16b90293a6@[12.107.142.212]>
Message-ID: <SAT.7.DEC.2002.231858.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Incidentally, I think the term that GM's advertising imprinted on the
>American vocabulary was "Frigidaire."  Electric refrigerators were
>generically referred to as frigidaires, whatever their actual brand, by
>most people when I was a kid. We happened to have a monitor-top GE, which
>we called "the icebox," even while  the real icebox still sat on the back
>porch, serving as a supplementary cupboard.

Excluding the fact that I locked myself in the icebox my grandfather
was throwing away, I was (years later) the proud owner of a Ploitch.
(Actually, it was a Philco, which, when I cleaned it one day,
realized that the letters came out - and  thus could be rearranged..).

Rima


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  8 10:25:43 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 05:25:43 EST
Subject: Bigfoot (August 1958)
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.052543.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED doesn't have a "bigfoot" entry.  The term was used before, such as the
title of ADVENTURES OF BIG-FOOT WALLACE (1870).
   From the AP and AOL News:


SEATTLE (Dec. 7) - The man who used 16-inch feet-shaped carvings to create
tracks that ignited the ``Bigfoot'' legend has died. He was 84.

Ray L. Wallace's family admitted his role in the creature myth after his
death Nov. 26 from heart failure.

``The reality is, Bigfoot just died,'' his son, Michael, said.

In August 1958, a bulldozer operator who worked for Wallace's construction
company in Humboldt County, California, found huge footprints circling and
then leading away from his rig.

The Humboldt Times in Eureka, California, coined the term ``Bigfoot'' in a
front-page story about the phenomenon.
(...)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  8 12:23:19 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 07:23:19 EST
Subject: Posole or Pozole
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.072319.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Posole/Pozole is driving me nuts.  Is it English?
   Posole--5,100 Google hits.
   Pozole--6,610 Google hits.
   Posole/Pozole--not in the new DARE P-SK.  Not in OED.  Not in
Merriam-Webster.  Not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND
DRINK (1999).
   Posole is an entry in THE OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD (1999).  "Pozole" is
mentioned there as a soup-stew.
   Whew!  A leg to stand on when I confront OED!
   As can be seen from the Google hits, the term is not rare at all in
English.  It also appears in the Sharon Herbst's Food Dictionary, as can be
seen on the epicurious.com web site (click "learn").
   From WEBSTER'S NEW WORLD DICTIONARY OF CULINARY ARTS (1997, second edition
2001), pg. 364:

_posole; pozole_ (poh-SOH-leh) A Mexican soup of pork and broth, hominy and
onions, flavored with garlic, chiles and cilantro and garnished with lettuce,
onions, cheese and cilantro.

   But don't trust WEBSTER'S NEW WORLD.  It's got crazy foreign words like
"lebkuchen" in there.
   I haven't gone through the databases, but the following ain't bad.

THE PEOPLE OF MEXICO:
WHO THEY ARE AND HOW THEY LIVE
by Wallace Thompson
New York: Harper & Brothers
1921

Pg. 264:
   Other corn-meal foods of Mexico are _cocoles_, _chavacanes_, and _pemol_.
_Cocoles_ are cakes or biscuits (Pg. 265--ed.) of corn meal, half an inch in
thickness and two inches in diameter.  They contain some shortening and are
served hot.  _Chavacanes_, which are better known, are a mixture of the corn
meal with shortening and eggs.  They are made up into fat round or square
crackers, and cooked rapidly, as _tortillas_ are.  _Pemol_ is a corn cake
made from the same meal.  In consistency it is not unlike Scotch shortbread,
and it is made up in a variety of forms, from tiny cakes the size of a half
dollar and a quarter of an inch in thickness, to large horseshoe loaves which
are sold for special occasions and may be compared to German _Kaffeekuchen_.
The _gordas_, or "fat ones," are the Mexican sandwich, a thick layer of corn
meal inclosing meat, _chile_, and _frijoles_,  cooked, and eaten cold.
_Posole_, corn meal in big balls, cooked and cooled, forms, like the
_gordas_, a diet for long marches and particularly for long canoe trips where
fires cannot be lighted.  The Indians provided with this food are perfectly
equipped for a trip of several days.  The balls of meal are either eaten dry
or mixed with to a gruel with water scooped up from the boatside in the gourd
or half coconut shell which, with this food supply and his blanket,
constitute the Indian's "outing equipment."


(Below are two hits from GOOGLE and GOOGLE GROUPS--ed.)


        Posole - Native American Thanksgiving - vegan

Adapted for vegan

2 lg Cans of hominy
3 Or 4 cans of vegetable broth or stock
2 Or 3 green chiles (roasted and peeled)
1 lg 1015 onion, diced
3 Or 4 large carrots, diced
3 Or 4 stalks of celery diced
Salt and pepper to taste
1/2 ts Each oregano, garlic, cumin
1 tb Chile powder
Fresh cilantro, minced, 2 Tbsp

Yet another appropriate Thanksgiving dish is Posole, which is indigenous to
the Native American southwest. Posole is really considered most traditional
around Christmastime and is always served New Year's Eve and/or New Year's
Day for good luck. However, Pueblo peoples have made posole for generations
and it is a staple winter dish.

Saute the onions and celery until the onion is transparent. This can be done
with water and veggie stock or with spray-type coatings. Dump everything else
in and bring to a low boil. Simmer until you like the texture. The hominy
should be really soft, almost to the break-up-and-really-form-a-thick-stew
stage.

Serve posole with cornbread and a crisp green salad. If you wish to add any
animal protein, the original recipes call for pork or ham.
Please consider your tolerance for spices. The heat will come from the green
chiles and the chile powder, as well as the black pepper.


From: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=author:harvey%40indyvax.iupui.edu+">James Harvey</A> (<A HREF="mailto:harvey%40indyvax.iupui.edu">harvey at indyvax.iupui.edu</A>)
Subject: Re: Pozole
View: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=1996Sep25.151340.26669%40indyvax.iupui.edu&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dpozole%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D1996Sep25.151340.26669%2540indyvax.iupui.edu%26rnum%3D1">Complete Thread (68 articles)</A>
<A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1996Sep25.151340.26669%40indyvax.iupui.edu&output=gplain">Original Format</A>
Newsgroups: <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.food.cooking">rec.food.cooking</A>
Date: 1996/09/25

In article <01bbaa3c$a585f540$4a4884d0 at Mimir.datasync.com>, "Culinary
Curmudgeon" <unktahe at datasync.com> writes:> Here in the South we call pozole
"hominy"...According to Rick and Deann> Bayless in Authentic Mexican (1987)
pozole (or posole) is "half-cooked> hominy".  It is made from dried, white
field corn, boiled in slaked lime,> washed and then "deflowered" by picking
out the germ so that the kernel> will bloat as it cooks.Pozole is also the
name of a native Mexican dish, a soup/stew made withhominy.  Maybe that's how
it came to refer to hominy in the U.S. Southand Southwest.  Here is a recipe
from Lori Matiella-Murray's "Waking theDead with Tia Gloria's Chicken Pozole"
web page at<A HREF="http://www.mercado.com/comida/lori/pozole.htm">http://www.mercado.com/comida/lori/pozole.htm</A>PozoleIngredients:1
whole chicken1 cup nixtamal (hominy)1/2 cup dry pinto beansNew Mexico red
chile, powder formbay leavesoreganogarliconionGarnish:cilantrogreen
cabbagegreen onionslimesPreparation:Cook 1/2 cup of dried beans in water,
oregano, garlic, and onion.  Whenthere is about a half an hour of cooking
time left, add the hominy.Set aside the beans and hominy after they are
done.At the same time you are cooking the beans and hominy, cook the
chicken.Remove all the skin from one whole chicken.  Cook the chicken in
plentyof water, seasoned with salt, pepper, garlic, oregano, bay leaf,
etc.After the chicken is done, de-bone it, cut it into chunks, and return
itto the chicken broth.  The broth can be de-fatted prior to this step ifyou
desire.  To de-fat the broth, store it (and the cooked chicken)overnight in
the refrigerator>  In the morning, skim the congealed excessfat off the top.
There should be little need to do this if the chickenwas cooked without the
skin.Add the beans and hominy to the chicken and broth.  Depending on how
hotyou like your dishes, add 1/8 to 1/4 cup powdered New Mexico chile.If you
prefer it, at this point you can remove the pieces of onion andgarlic from
the broth.  Correct the seasoning.  Simmer for 10 minutes onlow heat to allow
the flavors to marry.Serve with a garnish of finely chopped cilantro, green
onion and shreddedcabbage.  Squirt a little lime juice on top.  Serve salsa
and flour tortillason the side.My notes on the recipe:The recipe author
included this note about obtaining nixtamal (hominy):You can find it in the
meat department, frozen food section or specialtyfood section in dry form.
In some parts of the Southwest, like New Mexico,nixtamal or hominy is called
posole.I haven't seen dried hominy around here so I just use canned.  I use
more(1 can, almost two cups) since I think the 1 cup quantity specified in
therecipe assumes that you are using the dried stuff.The dish appears to be
traditionally made with pork.  The recipe authoruses chicken for health
reasons.  See<A HREF="http://mexico.udg.mx/Ingles/Cocina/Sopas/pozole.html">http://mexico.udg.mx/Ingles/Cocina/Sopas/pozole.html</A>and, if your
Spanish is up to speed,<A HREF="http://mexico.udg.mx/Cocina/Sopas/Pozole1.html">http://mexico.udg.mx/Cocina/Sopas/Pozole1.html</A>The last
page has links to four regional recipes for pozole.Cook the beans in enough
water to cover.  The important things is to notlet them cook dry and burn.
This step can be done in a crockpot.  Trussthe chicken, with some of the
seasoning and herbs inside, and don't gooverboard on the water (remember it
is all going into the pozole and youdon't want it to end up too watery).  You
do want it covered though, ornearly so.If you are really really really in a
hurry you could probably use a small(14 oz.) can of beans, saute some cut-up
chicken pieces and use canned stock,but of course it won't be the same
thing.--James Harvey  harvey at iupui.edu  Disclaimer: My opinions; I don't
speak for IU.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  8 16:23:22 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 11:23:22 EST
Subject: Icebox lives on
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.112322.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/06/2002 9:03:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

> Frigidiare, I think.  Whence "fridge", although I suppose that could
>  also have come from "refrigerator".  The OED is open-minded about
>  which was the direct ancestor.

Ref: Alfred P. Sloan, Jr. _My Years with General Motors_ New York: Doubleday,
date uncertain but between 1963 and 1965, no ISBN.  all information is from
chapter 19.

A man named Alfred Mellowes organized the Guardian Frigerator Compnay in
Detroit in 1916.  When President Durant of General Motors purchased the
company in 1918, it had sold 34 of what it called an "iceless frigerator".
Durant renamed the compnay the Frigidaire Corporation, renamed the product
the "Frigidaire", and resold the compnay to GM.  The purcharse price was
$56,366.50, a bargain considering that as of Feb 21, 1921,

"Frigidaire Corporation: Located at Detroit , Mich. and makes Frigidaires
which up to the present have been a failure....Loss to date about $1,520,000."

Sloan also states:

"The original Kelvinator Corporation entered the electric-refrigerator field
in 1914 and was the first enterprise to manufacture mechanical refrigerators
for household use on a commercial scale.  General Electric and Norge entered
the field in 1927, Westinghouse in 1930.  By 1940, the last prewar year of
unregualted commercial production, Frigidaire's share fo therefrigerator
market---which had been above 50 per cent in the 1920s---was down to 20 to 25
per cent."

Also in 1937 Frigidaire (now a full-fledged division of GM) started expanding
into other applicanes, so that the Frigidaire brand name no longer applied
only to refrigerators.

Hope this data is of some use.

     - Jim Landau


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sun Dec  8 20:16:54 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:16:54 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021206150216.28414P-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.151654.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I learned "blacktop" growing up in Westchester County, just north of
NYC, and in NYC itself. To me the term was self-evident: there was the
black street outside the house, whose surface got soft on very hot
summer days. And I used the term recently without thinking about it in a
song (http://world.std.com/~mam/filks/WhenCons.html), wrt the paving
material of a driveway.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Sun Dec  8 23:11:17 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 17:11:17 -0600
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.171117.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Incidentally, I had never heard the term "macadam" used before.  If I have
heard anything but "blacktop" used for the black, tarry road-making
substance, it has been just "playground" -- as in the school's playground
surface.  School playgrounds up North are routinely paved with blacktop, so
they actually hold painted lines for games, and do not turn into massive mud
fields in the Spring and Fall.  The material still is used extensively for
paving roads -- in Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota anyway -- because it is
a relatively cheap way to smooth out a sometimes pocket-filled concrete
underlayment, and then still just smooth it over again with another layer,
when freeze/thaw cycles again decimate the road with potholes big enough to
lose your car in.  -- Millie

PS -- If it is not pronounced with almost equal stress on the first and last
syllables, then how it pronounced?  ("macadam", I mean)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A Mandel" <mam at THEWORLD.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: blacktop/macadam


> I learned "blacktop" growing up in Westchester County, just north of
> NYC, and in NYC itself. To me the term was self-evident: there was the
> black street outside the house, whose surface got soft on very hot
> summer days. And I used the term recently without thinking about it in a
> song (http://world.std.com/~mam/filks/WhenCons.html), wrt the paving
> material of a driveway.
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel
>


From Friolly at AOL.COM  Sun Dec  8 23:11:36 2002
From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 18:11:36 EST
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.181136.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/8/02 3:09:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
millie-webb at CHARTER.NET writes:


> PS -- If it is not pronounced with almost equal stress on the first and last
> syllables, then how it pronounced?  ("macadam", I mean)

Mc Adam


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Sun Dec  8 23:38:01 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 17:38:01 -0600
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.173801.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have to admit, I have never considered that "Canadian" English could be
considered "network standard", in spite of the recent tendencies of certain
networks' news anchors to hail from the Great White North.  I can usually
hear in the first ten minutes of talking with someone, if they are from
Canada, at least from outside, say, Toronto.  And even in Toronto, there are
a lot of variations that shout "Canada".

In my own academic experience  of trying to label "network standard" as
being "from somewhere", it was said to be Chicago, because that is where the
radio networks all started in big.  And I was so thrilled to see someone
citing Rosina Lippi-Green's book!  She taught my own "Non-standard English"
course when I was in graduate school, and it was populated at least half by
junior and senior undergrads who were majoring in English, and were
tremendously prescriptivist.  We found it amusing though, to consider
ChicAH[+nasal]go to be the seat of broadcast English, given all the odd
vowel expansions and contractions they seem to show these days (at least
twelve years ago).  Those vowel shifts seemed to be related to East Coast
city shifts, or West Coast bumpkin shifts (in the class's estimation at the
time, that included "ValleySpeak", surfers, counter-culture Gen X
skateboarders, and other such stereotyped sub-groupings of Californians and
Oregonians.

Rosina, if you see this, know I am well and think of you often!! -- Millie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Irons" <t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent



> BTW, I thought Network Standard was Canadian. Or Texan.  Or Nebraskan.
>
>
> **************************
> Terry Lynn Irons
>


From Friolly at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 01:35:50 2002
From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:35:50 EST
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <SUN.8.DEC.2002.203550.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Out of curiosity, how were Oregonians stereotyped?  I didn't know anyone back
East ever even thought of Oregon.
Fritz



> Those vowel shifts seemed to be related to East Coast
> city shifts, or West Coast bumpkin shifts (in the class's estimation at the
> time, that included "ValleySpeak", surfers, counter-culture Gen X
> skateboarders, and other such stereotyped sub-groupings of Californians and
> Oregonians.
>
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 05:34:24 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 00:34:24 -0500
Subject: Pozole (1909)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.003424.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   More information for this raging ADS-L "pozole" debate.
   A new book is titled PILAF, POZOLE, AND PAD THAI: AMERICAN WOMEN AND ETHNIC FOOD (Amherst: University of Massachusetts, 2001) by Sherrie A. Inness.
   There are several hits in the NEW YORK TIMES.


   21 November 1909, NEW YORK TIMES, "Denies There's Salvery in Yucatan," pg. X9:
   ...he never tasted their everyday "atole" or "pozole," nor that special brandy with anis which they so willingly drink;...

   30 May 1926, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. XX9:
   In northern Yucatan he found Indians putting out bowls of posole (a drink made or corn) as offerings to the Wind God.

   31 May 1942, NEW YORK TIMES, "Fiery Dishes of the Southwest," pg. D5:
   Posole, made with hominy which is simmered all day long with fresh ham hocks, until the meat falls off the bones and disintegrates in the broth, calls for many hours of slow cooking.  Chili, onions and garlic are finally added to garnish the dish when served.  Albondigas are miniscule, peppery meatballs rolled in blue cornmeal and boiled for hours and hours, until a thick soup is formed.  "Angel's Dream"--the natives call it chiles rellenos--is huge peppers stuffed with chopped chicken and cheese, then dipped in a batter and deep-fried to a crispy brown.

   November 1937, SCIENTIFIC MONTHLY (JSTOR database), pg. 465:
   Mayas generally drink _pozole_, which consists of raw corn meal in cold water.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 05:56:28 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 00:56:28 -0500
Subject: Pad Thai (1975)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.005628.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    "Pad Thai" is not in OED and not in Merriam-Webster.  There are over 25,000 Google hits.
   The NEW YORK TIMES shows 16 pre-1986 hits, and 88 hits from 1986-1998.  We'll see next year if the LOS ANGELES TIMES can do better; perhaps Thai immigrants reached that shore first.
   I mentioned a book title (PILAF, POZOLE, AND PAD THAI: AMERICAN WOMEN AND ETHNIC FOOD (2001)) in the "pozole" post.

   3 January 1975, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 20:
   What Bangkok Cuisine can't offer in style it makes up in the authenticity of the Thai dishes, including noodle combinations as low as $1.95 that are a full meal.  The one we tried, at the lowest price, is described on the menu as "pad Thai rice stick noodle" and included shrimp, bits of tender white fish, bean sprouts and assorted spices.

(At Bangkok Cuisine, 885 Eighth Avenue, between 52d and 53d Streets...The TIMES reviewer orders the lowest price meal to review the restaurant?  Was he on a two dollar budget?--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 06:33:25 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 01:33:25 -0500
Subject: Friendly Skies (1933,
 1965); Thrill/Victory (1875); Agony/Defeat (1864)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.013325.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   United will possibly file for bankruptcy soon.  It is claimed that it coined "friendly skies."
   Roone Arledge recently died.  It is claimed that the producer of WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS and other shows coined "The Thrill of Victory, The Agony of Defeat."


FRIENDLY SKIES
   5 November 1965, NEW YORK TIMES, "New Campaign by United Air Lines," pg. 57:
   "The Extra Care Air Line" has just begun to advise the American public to "Fly the Friendly Skies of United."

   19 November 1933, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. SM11:
A SILENT EMPIRE IN THE ARCTIC CIRCLE:  There a visitor found friendly skies, flowers and men who thrive amid desolation.


THRILL OF VICTORY
   In 5 October 1875, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 2.  In a speech by General Sherman of his "March to the Sea."

AGONY OF DEFEAT
   In 26 December 1864, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 8.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 07:15:06 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 02:15:06 -0500
Subject: Nam Pla (Thai sauce, 1977)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.021506.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Thai restaurants are hardly rare in America.  OED probably won't get to "Pad Thai" in my lifetime, but "N" is coming up soon.
   The earliest cookbook under "Cookery, Thai" in the NYPL is EVERYDAY SIAMESE DISHES (1952), and the CATNYP records shows that it's--SURPRISE!--"missing."  It's also the earliest cookbook in the LOC, if it is indeed there.
   There are 4,640 Google hits for "Nam Pla."  "Nam pla" is also included in Sharon Herbst's dictionary on the epicurious.com site.


   2 February 1977, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 28:
_Thai Cuisine:  Hot, Hot Hot_ by Craig Claiborne
(...)  "Thai cooking," the couple noted, "relies heavily on Chinese and Indian for basic forms and tecniques; it is the pungent condiments such as fish sauce of nam pla; baked curry called nam prik pao and fresh coriander called pakchi that add much.  We also serve a pork satay which is originally Indonesian."

   4 February 1977, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 54:
_RESTAURANTS: The Exotic Charms of Thailand's Cuisine_ by Mimi Sheraton
(...)  Garlic, scallions, lemon juice and sugar or honey provide a familiar flavor spectrum with surprises coming through such exclusive Thai herbs as balm and grass; the limy rind and leaves of the makrut; horapa--a kind of sweet basil; soy sauce, and a fermented fish sauce, nam pla, that fortunately tastes much better than it smells, uncooked.


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Mon Dec  9 08:26:17 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 01:26:17 -0700
Subject: Snuzzle -- is Google reliable?
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.012617.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A colleague the other day told me that he had heard someone on NPR use the
word "snuzzle", and though he found it highly expressive and
interpretable, said he had never heard it before, and wondered if I had.
It is familiar to me as a sort of combination of "snuggle" and "nuzzle"
(cf. also Jimmy Durante), typical of a cat burying its head in one's arm,
but out of curiosity I thought I'd take a look at Google, which is often
cited herein. It turned up 496 hits, but in checking out the first 150, I
found that about 145 of them concerned themselves with some series of toy
ponies (one even had a picture on his website) which seem to provoke the
most awful sentimental expressions from their owners. Of the 5 or so hits
which were not, several concerned sentimental doggerel about owners' cats,
which indulged in this activity, and only one, a website for Chambers
publications (dictionary, encyclopedia), focused on this as a language
item, including it in their "list of our favorite odd words" (which for
some reason would not print out from my screen). Maybe if I had taken time
to look at all 496 hits (slow, on my 56K modem connection), I would have
found three or four more of linguistic relevance.

        This leaves me wondering how usefully reliable hit statistics on
Google are sometimes.

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 09:18:11 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 04:18:11 -0500
Subject: Sake (1682)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.041811.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A NEW VOYAGE TO THE EAST INDIES,
CONTAINING AN ACCOUNT OF SEVERAL OF THOSE RICH COUNTRIES...
by Mr. Glanius
London: H. Rodes
1682
(EARLY ENGLISH BOOKS ONLINE database--ed.)

Pg. 168:
   ...they brought with 'em six little Barrels of _Saqui_, which is a strong drink made of several sorts of Corn, but wherein there is mostly Rice, and which suddles like Wine.


(OED and MERRIAM-WEBSTER have 1687 for "sake"...I've now done a whole lot of Japanese food, including "sashimi" and "sukiyaki," with "California roll" and "sushi bar" coming with LOS ANGELES TIMES full text...IS ANYONE IN _THE NEW YORK TIMES_ FOOD SECTION LISTENING?  I'M BARRY POPIK!  I LIVE IN NEW YORK CITY!  MANY YEARS AGO, I SOLVED THE "HOT DOG," A POPULAR AMERICAN FOOD!  AND THEN--ah, forget it--ed.)


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Mon Dec  9 09:23:01 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 09:23:01 -0000
Subject: Friendly Skies (1933,
 1965); Thrill/Victory (1875); Agony/Defeat (1864)
In-Reply-To: <557CAE36.35A08E1F.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.092301.0000.>

Barry Popik wrote:

> FRIENDLY SKIES
> 19 November 1933, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. SM11: A SILENT
> EMPIRE IN THE ARCTIC CIRCLE:  There a visitor found friendly
> skies, flowers and men who thrive amid desolation.

Even isolated from its direct airline associations, it's the sort
of phrase that a writer might occasionally come up with. For
example, Gail Haminton in her "Gala-Days" of 1863:

"And of all beautiful things that could have been thought of or
hoped for, what should come to crown our queen of days but a
thunder-storm, a most real and vivid thunder-storm, marshalling up
from the west its grand, cumulose clouds; black, jagged, bulging
with impatient, prisoned thunder biding their time, sharp and
fierce against the brilliant sky, spreading swiftly over the
heavens, fusing into one great gray pall, dropping a dim curtain of
rain between us and the land, closing down upon us a hollow
hemisphere pierced with shafts of fire and deafening with unseen
thunders, wresting us off from the friendly skies and shores,
wrapping us into an awful solitude."


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Dec  9 09:07:26 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 04:07:26 -0500
Subject: Snuzzle -- is Google reliable?
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.040726.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU,Net writes:
>        This leaves me wondering how usefully reliable hit statistics on
>Google are sometimes.

My experience leads me to believe that, while googling a word or phrase
can be revealing, Google is among the the least reliable of the many
electronic resources available to linguists.  It did lead me to some
sources for very rare terms, such as _eighteen-wheeler_ for a kind of
enzyme.

Season's greetings to all,
David Barnhart
barnhart at highlands.com


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Dec  9 11:17:49 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:17:49 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <008301c29f12$d91169e0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.061749.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I still find it strange that you guys don't just ask the recognized
experts on SAE (aka "network standard") where it is. Can't you afford
a phone call to MI?

dInIs


I have to admit, I have never considered that "Canadian" English could be
considered "network standard", in spite of the recent tendencies of certain
networks' news anchors to hail from the Great White North.  I can usually
hear in the first ten minutes of talking with someone, if they are from
Canada, at least from outside, say, Toronto.  And even in Toronto, there are
a lot of variations that shout "Canada".

In my own academic experience  of trying to label "network standard" as
being "from somewhere", it was said to be Chicago, because that is where the
radio networks all started in big.  And I was so thrilled to see someone
citing Rosina Lippi-Green's book!  She taught my own "Non-standard English"
course when I was in graduate school, and it was populated at least half by
junior and senior undergrads who were majoring in English, and were
tremendously prescriptivist.  We found it amusing though, to consider
ChicAH[+nasal]go to be the seat of broadcast English, given all the odd
vowel expansions and contractions they seem to show these days (at least
twelve years ago).  Those vowel shifts seemed to be related to East Coast
city shifts, or West Coast bumpkin shifts (in the class's estimation at the
time, that included "ValleySpeak", surfers, counter-culture Gen X
skateboarders, and other such stereotyped sub-groupings of Californians and
Oregonians.

Rosina, if you see this, know I am well and think of you often!! -- Millie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Irons" <t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent



>  BTW, I thought Network Standard was Canadian. Or Texan.  Or Nebraskan.
>
>
>  **************************
>  Terry Lynn Irons
>

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM  Mon Dec  9 12:18:05 2002
From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 07:18:05 -0500
Subject: Not-quite-homophonic errors
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.071805.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is there an official name for the type of verbal error where a person
substitutes a nearly homophonic word for the correct word, such as a person
writing "eminent" when they mean "imminent"?

Thanks.

Paul
http://www.wordspy.com/


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 13:13:34 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:13:34 -0500
Subject: Friendly Skies (1933,
 1965); Thrill/Victory (1875); Agony/Defeat (1864)
In-Reply-To: <557CAE36.35A08E1F.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.081334.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking of victory and defeat, Barry, what is the earliest you can find
for the phrase "snatch victory from the jaws of defeat"?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Dec  9 13:23:14 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:23:14 -0500
Subject: Not-quite-homophonic errors
In-Reply-To: <142101c29f7d$073bc080$ef9afea9@paul>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.082314.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, the word for this so-called substitution or error (sic) is
"Standard English," although I understand that in some recalcitrant
dialect areas they distinguish between /E/ and /I/ before nasals.


dInIs





Is there an official name for the type of verbal error where a person
substitutes a nearly homophonic word for the correct word, such as a person
writing "eminent" when they mean "imminent"?

Thanks.

Paul
http://www.wordspy.com/

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 13:27:22 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:27:22 EST
Subject: Not-quite-homophonic errors
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.082722.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/9/02 7:18:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM writes:

> Is there an official name for the type of verbal error where a person
>  substitutes a nearly homophonic word for the correct word, such as a person
>  writing "eminent" when they mean "imminent"?

If the result is amusing, it is called a "malaprop" or "malapropism".

      - Jim Landau


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Mon Dec  9 13:43:57 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:43:57 -0000
Subject: Friendly Skies (1933,
 1965); Thrill/Victory (1875); Agony/Defeat (1864)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0212090812100.14256-100000@minerva>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.134357.0000.>

> Speaking of victory and defeat, Barry, what is the earliest you
> can find for the phrase "snatch victory from the jaws of defeat"?

As a marker, the earliest I can find is this from Ralph Connor's
"The Foreigner: A Tale of Saskatchewan" of 1909 (Chapter 17): "All
the old, easy, lazy air was gone. In every line of his handsome
face, in every movement of his body, there showed vigour and
determination. The old English fighting spirit was roused, whose
tradition it was to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat and
despair".

What about the much more recent inverse, to snatch defeat from the
jaws of victory?

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Dec  9 14:21:09 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:21:09 -0800
Subject: Which and Falaqa
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212061348330.77669293-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.062109.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My bad.  I was trying to recall from memory what I had
seen ... and missed.  The point of my message was
seeking to understaand the seeming shift from "k" to
"q" in the English spelling of words of Arabic origin.

--- Mark A Mandel <mam at THEWORLD.COM> wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Dec 2002, James Smith wrote:
>
> #"Koran" is seen as "Q'run" more frequently.
>
> Than what? I have *never* seen "Q'run" for "Koran",
> or anything else
> AFIAR; out of context I would pronounce it
> "kyoo-run". I have
> occasionally seen "Qur'an" (optional macron on the
> "a").
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Dec  9 15:14:25 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:14:25 -0500
Subject: Sake (1682)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.101425.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does the saqui "suddle" [?] like wine, or "fuddle" [make drunk] like wine?  There may have been a "long s" here.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Date: Monday, December 9, 2002 4:18 am
Subject: Sake (1682)

> A NEW VOYAGE TO THE EAST INDIES,
> CONTAINING AN ACCOUNT OF SEVERAL OF THOSE RICH COUNTRIES...
> by Mr. Glanius
> London: H. Rodes
> 1682
> (EARLY ENGLISH BOOKS ONLINE database--ed.)
>
> Pg. 168:
>   ...they brought with 'em six little Barrels of _Saqui_, which
> is a strong drink made of several sorts of Corn, but wherein there
> is mostly Rice, and which suddles like Wine.
>
>
> (OED and MERRIAM-WEBSTER have 1687 for "sake"...I've now done a
> whole lot of Japanese food, including "sashimi" and "sukiyaki,"
> with "California roll" and "sushi bar" coming with LOS ANGELES
> TIMES full text...IS ANYONE IN _THE NEW YORK TIMES_ FOOD SECTION
> LISTENING?  I'M BARRY POPIK!  I LIVE IN NEW YORK CITY!  MANY YEARS
> AGO, I SOLVED THE "HOT DOG," A POPULAR AMERICAN FOOD!  AND THEN--
> ah, forget it--ed.)
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Dec  9 15:25:52 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:25:52 -0500
Subject: Nam Pla (Thai sauce, 1977)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.102552.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry says "The earliest cookbook under "Cookery, Thai" in the NYPL is EVERYDAY SIAMESE DISHES (1952), and the CATNYP records shows that it's--SURPRISE!--"missing." "

Barry and anyone else who has every used the NYPL has seen that the security checks there are nugatory, and, indeed, anyone who can't steal a book from the NYPL is too dumb to make use of the book, anyway.  AT one time the NYPL at least required that readers leave their coats and briefcases in a cloak room, but it has these last ten years or so dropped even that precaution.

I have more than once observed here that someone has stolen every book on some subject -- clocks, medieval pilgrimage, the Loeb Classical Library, all 1000 volumes.  I suppose that the many cookbooks Barry has complained of a "missing" from NYPL have been stolen by the same person, who may also have stolen the ones missing from Library of Congress, too.

People want their libraries to be open, welcoming, not intimidating, but that comes with a price.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 15:48:18 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:48:18 -0500
Subject: Friendly Skies (1933,
 1965); Thrill/Victory (1875); Agony/Defeat (1864)
In-Reply-To: <3DF49E1D.15390.106AD76@localhost>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.104818.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Michael Quinion wrote:

> What about the much more recent inverse, to snatch defeat from the
> jaws of victory?

Actually, I think this is what I intended to ask about.  In any case, I am
interested in the origins of BOTH versions.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 16:37:29 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:37:29 -0500
Subject: Research on second dialect acquisition
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021206230859.00a9fec0@lamar.colostate.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.113729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Karl Krahnke said:
>Although I do quite a bit of work in the area of  regional dialect and even
>pronunciation teaching (when forced), I have never looked hard for research
>evidence, descriptive or experimental, on the difficulty or ease of
>different/second dialect  acquisition. Like Beverly Flanigan, I have
>assumed it was difficult and rare, but I have not come across research that
>looks specifically at that phenomenon. There are no references to it in
>Rosina Lippi-Green's _English with an Accent_, which is one place I would
>expect to find some references. Could someone help me by pointing me to
>specific studies on that specific question?
>
>I am also doing some work on regulation and judgment of language in the
>context of employment. A basic legal issue there is whether and to what
>degree language is a "mutable characteristic." I am not aware of compelling
>evidence that accent, for one, is not mutable, though I would certainly
>like to think that is generally the case.
>
>So, again, any suggestions would be helpful. (I'll of course look on my own
>also.)

Jack Chambers had a paper a number of years ago in Language called
Dialect Acquisition, about Canadian children who moved to England.
You might also look for papers by Julie Roberts and Arvilla Payne on
Philadelphia English. Roberts'
paper (co-authored by Labov?) was in Language Variation and Change a
number of years ago; it should have a reference to Payne's earlier
work.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 16:51:03 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:51:03 EST
Subject: Possible antedating for "you all"
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.115103.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

letter of 15th February, 1771 by Joshua Hart of "Charles Town", South
Carolina, quoted in Jacob Rader Marcus _Early American Jewry, Volume II_
Philadeplphia: Jewish Publication Society of America, 1953, no ISBN. page 250.

<begin quote>
Mrs. Hart and family joins me in wishing you and family, your brother Abram
and family, the widow Lopez and children, and Mr. David Lopez,and the rest of
your worthy family, a merry Purim, and may the Good of Israel set a blessing
on you all, and am, with sincerity,
   Your assured friend and most obedient servant,
    Joshua Hart
<end quote>

note: "Good" probably should read "God"

I don't know whether to claim this as an early usage of the second person
plural "you all" or "y'all" that is widely used in the speech of the Southern
United States.  In favor of such a claim: this letter was written in
Charleston, South Carolina, which is in the Southern US, by a man who had
lived in Charleston for at least nine years (page 249 "He had been in
business in Charlestown at least since 1762, when we first run across his
advertisements.")

        - James A. Landau
          systems engineer
          FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI)
          Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec  9 16:53:28 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:53:28 -0500
Subject: Nam Pla (Thai sauce, 1977)
In-Reply-To: <45B041A7.4CC36805.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.115328.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 02:15:06AM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Thai restaurants are hardly rare in America.  OED probably
>won't get to "Pad Thai" in my lifetime, but "N" is coming up
>soon.

Just to give you a point of reference, our first cite for
_nam pla_ is currently 1969.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Dec  9 16:55:08 2002
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:55:08 -0800
Subject: Not-quite-homophonic errors
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.085508.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

jim landau wrote:
 >In a message dated 12/9/02 7:18:50 AM Eastern Standard Time,
 >mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM writes:

  >> Is there an official name for the type of verbal error where a
  >> person substitutes a nearly homophonic word for the correct word,
  >>  such as a person writing "eminent" when they mean "imminent"?

 >If the result is amusing, it is called a "malaprop" or
 >"malapropism".

there are two sorts of phenomena here, both involving substitution of
one word for another, based on phonological similarity (and usually
semantic similarity as well).  in one, the substitution is "on-line"
and unintended, something the speaker/writer would recognize as a
mistake if it was pointed out; these are the "malapropisms" of fay and
cutler ("Malapropisms and the structure of the mental lexicon",
Linguistic Inquiry 1977).  in the other, the speaker/writer intends to
use the word produced, but it's a mistake from the point of view of
the surrounding community; these are the errors of the original
mrs. malapop, which i've called "classical malapropisms" ("Classical
malapropisms", Language Sciences 1979).  it's not always easy to tell
which thing you're confronted with, of course, though fay/cutler
malapropisms are often self-corrected (eve clark at stanford
linguistics faculty meeting, 11/12/02: "It's been very widely
decimated... disseminated..."; me in conversation the very same day:
"Planet Auto ReLAY Shop...  RePAIR Shop").

both types, but especially classical malapropisms, can serve as
sources of linguistic change.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 17:08:57 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:08:57 -0500
Subject: Possible antedating for "you all"
In-Reply-To: <187.12705131.2b2623f7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.120857.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:51 AM -0500 12/9/02, James A. Landau wrote:
>letter of 15th February, 1771 by Joshua Hart of "Charles Town", South
>Carolina, quoted in Jacob Rader Marcus _Early American Jewry, Volume II_
>Philadeplphia: Jewish Publication Society of America, 1953, no ISBN. page 250.
>
><begin quote>
>Mrs. Hart and family joins me in wishing you and family, your brother Abram
>and family, the widow Lopez and children, and Mr. David Lopez,and the rest of
>your worthy family, a merry Purim, and may the Good of Israel set a blessing
>on you all, and am, with sincerity,
>    Your assured friend and most obedient servant,
>     Joshua Hart
><end quote>
>
>note: "Good" probably should read "God"
>
>I don't know whether to claim this as an early usage of the second person
>plural "you all" or "y'all" that is widely used in the speech of the Southern
>United States.  In favor of such a claim: this letter was written in
>Charleston, South Carolina, which is in the Southern US, by a man who had
>lived in Charleston for at least nine years (page 249 "He had been in
>business in Charlestown at least since 1762, when we first run across his
>advertisements.")
>
But of course, as you imply, it could also be the standard "floated
quantifier" sense = 'all of you'.  It sounds perfectly consistent
with my non-southern competence (= a blessing on you all, rather than
= a blessing on youze/y'all).

Larry


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Mon Dec  9 18:30:34 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:30:34 -0500
Subject: trunk vs boot
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.133034.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A student last year from Chillicothe, Ohio (central Ohio but still
Appalachian) used "boot" and claimed others in her community did also--so it
may be S Mid; I'm sure bev Flanigan can give more citations.
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 19:07:32 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:07:32 -0500
Subject: Possible antedating for "you all"
In-Reply-To: <p0432040eba1a7e1bc3b4@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.140732.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn said:
>At 11:51 AM -0500 12/9/02, James A. Landau wrote:
>>letter of 15th February, 1771 by Joshua Hart of "Charles Town", South
>>Carolina, quoted in Jacob Rader Marcus _Early American Jewry, Volume II_
>>Philadeplphia: Jewish Publication Society of America, 1953, no
>>ISBN. page 250.
>>
>><begin quote>
>>Mrs. Hart and family joins me in wishing you and family, your brother Abram
>>and family, the widow Lopez and children, and Mr. David Lopez,and the rest of
>>your worthy family, a merry Purim, and may the Good of Israel set a blessing
>>on you all, and am, with sincerity,
>>     Your assured friend and most obedient servant,
>>      Joshua Hart
>><end quote>
>>
>>note: "Good" probably should read "God"
>>
>>I don't know whether to claim this as an early usage of the second person
>>plural "you all" or "y'all" that is widely used in the speech of the Southern
>>United States.  In favor of such a claim: this letter was written in
>>Charleston, South Carolina, which is in the Southern US, by a man who had
>>lived in Charleston for at least nine years (page 249 "He had been in
>>business in Charlestown at least since 1762, when we first run across his
>>advertisements.")
>>
>But of course, as you imply, it could also be the standard "floated
>quantifier" sense = 'all of you'.  It sounds perfectly consistent
>with my non-southern competence (= a blessing on you all, rather than
>= a blessing on youze/y'all).

That particular phrase "may the God of Israel set a blessing on you
all" strikes me as a translation from Hebrew, which has a sg/pl
distinction for pronouns. (The Hebrew would be something like
"vayivarech etxem elohey-yisrael", where the suffix -xem on the
accusative particle et is 2nd person masculine plural; singular would
be etxa.)
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Mon Dec  9 19:21:38 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:21:38 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.142138.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My first father-in-law (b. Bavaria, 1899) used "colprovia" (which I had
always assumed was Germanic Kohlprovia--but a google search reveals it's a
kind of asphalt).  The term "blacktop" differentiates by color in comparison
with "white" concrete.
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec  9 19:23:01 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:23:01 -0500
Subject: Snuzzle -- is Google reliable?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212090112560.10854-100000@ptah.u.arizona.ed u>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.142301.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Whether on Google or not, I like the blend I used with my son when he was a
baby:  "Let's huggle."

At 01:26 AM 12/9/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>A colleague the other day told me that he had heard someone on NPR use the
>word "snuzzle", and though he found it highly expressive and
>interpretable, said he had never heard it before, and wondered if I had.
>It is familiar to me as a sort of combination of "snuggle" and "nuzzle"
>(cf. also Jimmy Durante), typical of a cat burying its head in one's arm,
>but out of curiosity I thought I'd take a look at Google, which is often
>cited herein. It turned up 496 hits, but in checking out the first 150, I
>found that about 145 of them concerned themselves with some series of toy
>ponies (one even had a picture on his website) which seem to provoke the
>most awful sentimental expressions from their owners. Of the 5 or so hits
>which were not, several concerned sentimental doggerel about owners' cats,
>which indulged in this activity, and only one, a website for Chambers
>publications (dictionary, encyclopedia), focused on this as a language
>item, including it in their "list of our favorite odd words" (which for
>some reason would not print out from my screen). Maybe if I had taken time
>to look at all 496 hits (slow, on my 56K modem connection), I would have
>found three or four more of linguistic relevance.
>
>         This leaves me wondering how usefully reliable hit statistics on
>Google are sometimes.
>
>         Rudy


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Mon Dec  9 19:44:10 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:44:10 -0600
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.134410.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oregonians -- to the extent that Michiganders knew of their existence --
were thought to be obsessive skateboarding (some drug-using) Curt Cobain
fans (or however he spelled it), who dressed in at least half-rags, and
tried to sound like surfers, when they spoke in multiple syllables at all.
As I say, young Gen-X subculture types.  This was the stereotype I heard the
most at the time.  Then again, the classmates I spoke of were in Education
(sorry, I think I said English), and Michiganders tended to be quite
snobbish when it came to having a corner on the "correctness" market.  As
dEnIs has pointed out before.  I find it very odd that a people who
pronounce "milk" as [mElk], Wisconsin as [wEsconsIn], and have to say "ink
pen" for "pen", because they say [pIn] for "pen", claim to be the seat of
SAE.  Drove me nuts at the time, although I have since then decided it is
just "cute" and amusing.  :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fritz Juengling" <Friolly at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


> Out of curiosity, how were Oregonians stereotyped?  I didn't know anyone
back
> East ever even thought of Oregon.
> Fritz
>
>
>
> > Those vowel shifts seemed to be related to East Coast
> > city shifts, or West Coast bumpkin shifts (in the class's estimation at
the
> > time, that included "ValleySpeak", surfers, counter-culture Gen X
> > skateboarders, and other such stereotyped sub-groupings of Californians
and
> > Oregonians.
> >
> >
>


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Mon Dec  9 19:56:37 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:56:37 -0600
Subject: "Mispronouncing" names
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.135637.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry, [dInIs], I mistyped your name in my own pronunciation in stead of yours.  There we go again on "mispronouncing" names.  

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Millie Webb" <millie-webb at CHARTER.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


 Then again, the classmates I spoke of were in Education
> (sorry, I think I said English), and Michiganders tended to be quite
> snobbish when it came to having a corner on the "correctness" market.  As
> dEnIs has pointed out before.  


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec  9 20:04:39 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:04:39 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <006101c29fbb$588ef5e0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.150439.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:

> dEnIs has pointed out before.  I find it very odd that a people who
> pronounce "milk" as [mElk], Wisconsin as [wEsconsIn],

For what it's worth, I still say ELL-i-noi and EN-dee-an-uh, too. Do
people from Illinois say that, or is it just Michiganders?

(Many of my Michigan features have fallen by the wayside after I moved
out east, but this is not one of those. It'll always be mElk for me!


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Dec  9 20:10:14 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:10:14 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <006101c29fbb$588ef5e0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.121014.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think of the following description of Oregonians as mostly applying to
the Puget Sound region, the home of Nirvana and Kurt Cobain, the flannel-
shirts grunge-look, skateboards, etc. For me, Gen(eration)-X is more of a
historical marker for the generation born between 1961 and 1981 that isn't
really typical of any one area. I never though to the grunge movement or
Gen-X members, especially those from Washington or Oregon to have much
connection with surfers or surfer speech (consciously or otherwise).

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:

> Oregonians -- to the extent that Michiganders knew of their existence --
> were thought to be obsessive skateboarding (some drug-using) Curt Cobain
> fans (or however he spelled it), who dressed in at least half-rags, and
> tried to sound like surfers, when they spoke in multiple syllables at all.
> As I say, young Gen-X subculture types.  This was the stereotype I heard the
> most at the time.  Then again, the classmates I spoke of were in Education
> (sorry, I think I said English), and Michiganders tended to be quite
> snobbish when it came to having a corner on the "correctness" market.  As
> dEnIs has pointed out before.  I find it very odd that a people who
> pronounce "milk" as [mElk], Wisconsin as [wEsconsIn], and have to say "ink
> pen" for "pen", because they say [pIn] for "pen", claim to be the seat of
> SAE.  Drove me nuts at the time, although I have since then decided it is
> just "cute" and amusing.  :-)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fritz Juengling" <Friolly at AOL.COM>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 7:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>
>
> > Out of curiosity, how were Oregonians stereotyped?  I didn't know anyone
> back
> > East ever even thought of Oregon.
> > Fritz
> >
> >
> >
> > > Those vowel shifts seemed to be related to East Coast
> > > city shifts, or West Coast bumpkin shifts (in the class's estimation at
> the
> > > time, that included "ValleySpeak", surfers, counter-culture Gen X
> > > skateboarders, and other such stereotyped sub-groupings of Californians
> and
> > > Oregonians.
> > >
> > >
> >
>


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Mon Dec  9 20:16:46 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:16:46 -0600
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.141646.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I was looking at Michiganders supposedly backing [E] to "schwa", I had
to specifically shut out environments of [E] before nasals and before most
[l] (though this was lexical), or my data got all messed up.  Elsewhere, I
found that [E] tended to move towards [schwa - upside down 'e'], in words
like "bet", "eggs", and so on.  Also except before nasals, [I] tended to
shift down towards [E], as in W[E]sconsin, "mix", "ticket", and so on.
That's where Ellinois and Endiana come from, it seems.  My mother-in-law,
who was born, raised and had a family in Michigan, will insist she does NOT
say WEsconsin, but WEsconsin, and not mElk, but mElk.  I think she honestly
cannot hear the difference between [E] and [I] in many places.  -- Millie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Kl." <stevekl at PANIX.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


> On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:
>
> > dEnIs has pointed out before.  I find it very odd that a people who
> > pronounce "milk" as [mElk], Wisconsin as [wEsconsIn],
>
> For what it's worth, I still say ELL-i-noi and EN-dee-an-uh, too. Do
> people from Illinois say that, or is it just Michiganders?
>
> (Many of my Michigan features have fallen by the wayside after I moved
> out east, but this is not one of those. It'll always be mElk for me!
>


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Dec  9 19:30:15 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:30:15 -0500
Subject: Snuzzle -- is Google reliable?
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.143015.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

flanigan at OHIOU.EDU,Net writes:
>Whether on Google or not, I like the blend I used with my son when he
>was a
>baby:  "Let's huggle."

My boys still like to "huggle."

Regards,
David Barnhart


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 21:01:04 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 16:01:04 -0500
Subject: Possible antedating for "you all"
In-Reply-To: <a05200f04ba1a99e8d704@[130.132.95.208]>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.160104.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:07 PM -0500 12/9/02, Alice Faber wrote:
>Laurence Horn said:
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't know whether to claim this as an early usage of the second person
>>>plural "you all" or "y'all" that is widely used in the speech of
>>>the Southern
>>>United States.  In favor of such a claim: this letter was written in
>>>Charleston, South Carolina, which is in the Southern US, by a man who had
>>>lived in Charleston for at least nine years (page 249 "He had been in
>>>business in Charlestown at least since 1762, when we first run across his
>>>advertisements.")
>>>
>>But of course, as you imply, it could also be the standard "floated
>>quantifier" sense = 'all of you'.  It sounds perfectly consistent
>>with my non-southern competence (= a blessing on you all, rather than
>>= a blessing on youze/y'all).
>
>That particular phrase "may the God of Israel set a blessing on you
>all" strikes me as a translation from Hebrew, which has a sg/pl
>distinction for pronouns. (The Hebrew would be something like
>"vayivarech etxem elohey-yisrael", where the suffix -xem on the
>accusative particle et is 2nd person masculine plural; singular would
>be etxa.)
>--
>===================================================================
That still doesn't tell us whether the "you all" is a precursor to
the southern "y'all" or "you-all".  For example, I can imagine using
"vous tous" here in French, even though French of course makes a
distinction between "tu" and "vous" (although not strictly on the
lines of number, since the latter is used for second plural polite).
So in French, the "tous" wouldn't necessarily be needed to
disambiguate for number and would in fact have the "all of you"
meaning.

Compare Tiny Tim's "God bless you, every one", signalling not "you
(pl.) as opposed to (sg.)" but the fact that the set of blessees
extends to every member of the set of addressees, with nobody left
out.

Larry


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Mon Dec  9 21:18:58 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:18:58 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.131858.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wow! Amazing how distorted things can be! I think Curt and his band, Nirvana, were from Seattle, the alleged home of grunge, which is what I think you are describing. As far as sounding like surfers--I don't think so. I can't imagine anyone trying to sound like a surfer here. That's just a different culture.  (Also, the water's too cold to be into surfing, unless you have a thick wet suit).  I guess we Oregonians are just 'out there' (i.e. West) and are largely unknown.  That's just fine.
Fritz



>>> millie-webb at CHARTER.NET 12/09/02 11:44AM >>>
Oregonians -- to the extent that Michiganders knew of their existence --
were thought to be obsessive skateboarding (some drug-using) Curt Cobain
fans (or however he spelled it), who dressed in at least half-rags, and
tried to sound like surfers, when they spoke in multiple syllables at all.
As I say, young Gen-X subculture types.  This was the stereotype I heard the
most at the time.  Then again, the classmates I spoke of were in Education
(sorry, I think I said English), and Michiganders tended to be quite
snobbish when it came to having a corner on the "correctness" market.  As
dEnIs has pointed out before.  I find it very odd that a people who
pronounce "milk" as [mElk], Wisconsin as [wEsconsIn], and have to say "ink
pen" for "pen", because they say [pIn] for "pen", claim to be the seat of
SAE.  Drove me nuts at the time, although I have since then decided it is
just "cute" and amusing.  :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fritz Juengling" <Friolly at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


> Out of curiosity, how were Oregonians stereotyped?  I didn't know anyone
back
> East ever even thought of Oregon.
> Fritz
>
>
>
> > Those vowel shifts seemed to be related to East Coast
> > city shifts, or West Coast bumpkin shifts (in the class's estimation at
the
> > time, that included "ValleySpeak", surfers, counter-culture Gen X
> > skateboarders, and other such stereotyped sub-groupings of Californians
and
> > Oregonians.
> >
> >
>


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Dec  9 21:18:53 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 16:18:53 -0500
Subject: Possible antedating for "you all"
In-Reply-To: <p04320400ba1ab3a74cba@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.161853.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:

#Compare Tiny Tim's "God bless you, every one", signalling not "you
#(pl.) as opposed to (sg.)" but the fact that the set of blessees
#extends to every member of the set of addressees, with nobody left
#out.

I'm pretty sure that that's "God bless <us>, every one." Not that the
failure of this citation invalidates your point.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec  9 22:20:04 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:20:04 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <sdf4985f.070@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.142004.0800.PRICHARD@LINFIELD.EDU>

Yep, Fritz has it right. It's too cold to surf here in Oregon, and
skateboard wheels rust in all the rain. Poorly paid faculty do dress in
half-rags--but that's hardly unique to the Northwest. And as for the
"largely unknown" part, I agree with Fritz in that as well. I've heard
California's very nice, however.

PR


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec  9 22:45:33 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:45:33 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <sdf4985f.070@salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.144533.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oregon--lessee, isn't that somewhere up there near Seattle???

Too bad the rags stereotype hadn't arisen during the Tom McCall era--it
would have furnished a great addition to the series of "Oregon ungreeting
cards."  (Text of one I remember: "In summer, Oregonians don't tan...(open
card)...they rust.")

Peter Mc.

--On Monday, December 9, 2002 1:18 PM -0800 FRITZ JUENGLING
<juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:

> I guess we Oregonians are just 'out there' (i.e. West) and are largely
> unknown.  That's just fine.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec  9 22:46:14 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 14:46:14 -0800
Subject: mentor/mentee
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021209141515.20329F-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.144614.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone heard _mentee_? The pattern is obvious (cf. lessor/lessee), but
I wonder about the specific form. (Personally, I like manatee.)

Thanks.

Peter R.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec  9 22:47:49 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:47:49 -0500
Subject: mentor/mentee
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021209144451.20329G-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.174749.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 02:46:14PM -0800, Peter Richardson wrote:
> Has anyone heard _mentee_? The pattern is obvious (cf. lessor/lessee), but
> I wonder about the specific form. (Personally, I like manatee.)

OED Online has an entry for _mentee_ with a first cite from 1965.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 22:58:00 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:58:00 -0500
Subject: mentor/mentee
In-Reply-To: <20021209224749.GA7039@panix.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.175800.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:47 PM -0500 12/9/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Mon, Dec 09, 2002 at 02:46:14PM -0800, Peter Richardson wrote:
>>  Has anyone heard _mentee_? The pattern is obvious (cf. lessor/lessee), but
>>  I wonder about the specific form. (Personally, I like manatee.)
>
>OED Online has an entry for _mentee_ with a first cite from 1965.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower
>OED

I've certainly heard it since the late sixties, and it's always
mentioned in discussions of the -ee suffix.

Larry


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 23:00:35 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 18:00:35 EST
Subject: Evans Digital Edition
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.180035.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry or Fred may have already mentioned this, so apologies if I'm repeating.
But I have just learned today of a project to provide complete digital
searchable access to every published item in America from 1639 to 1800. It is
called Evans Digital Edition, presented by the distinguished American
Antiquarian Society, and available from Readex. Here is the website:

http://www.readex.com/scholarl/eai_digi.html

This will jump start our knowledge of early American vocabulary, y'all.

Not that it's free. My small-college library was quoted a prepublication
offer of about $30,000, plus annual maintenance fee of $1000.

- Allan Metcalf


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Dec  9 23:34:00 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 18:34:00 -0500
Subject: Possible antedating for "you all"
In-Reply-To: <p04320400ba1ab3a74cba@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.183400.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn said:
>At 2:07 PM -0500 12/9/02, Alice Faber wrote:
>>Laurence Horn said:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I don't know whether to claim this as an early usage of the second person
>>>>plural "you all" or "y'all" that is widely used in the speech of
>>>>the Southern
>>>>United States.  In favor of such a claim: this letter was written in
>>>>Charleston, South Carolina, which is in the Southern US, by a man who had
>>>>lived in Charleston for at least nine years (page 249 "He had been in
>>>>business in Charlestown at least since 1762, when we first run across his
>>>>advertisements.")
>>>>
>>>But of course, as you imply, it could also be the standard "floated
>>>quantifier" sense = 'all of you'.  It sounds perfectly consistent
>>>with my non-southern competence (= a blessing on you all, rather than
>>>= a blessing on youze/y'all).
>>
>>That particular phrase "may the God of Israel set a blessing on you
>>all" strikes me as a translation from Hebrew, which has a sg/pl
>>distinction for pronouns. (The Hebrew would be something like
>>"vayivarech etxem elohey-yisrael", where the suffix -xem on the
>>accusative particle et is 2nd person masculine plural; singular would
>>be etxa.)
>>--
>>===================================================================
>That still doesn't tell us whether the "you all" is a precursor to
>the southern "y'all" or "you-all".  For example, I can imagine using
>"vous tous" here in French, even though French of course makes a
>distinction between "tu" and "vous" (although not strictly on the
>lines of number, since the latter is used for second plural polite).
>So in French, the "tous" wouldn't necessarily be needed to
>disambiguate for number and would in fact have the "all of you"
>meaning.
>
>Compare Tiny Tim's "God bless you, every one", signalling not "you
>(pl.) as opposed to (sg.)" but the fact that the set of blessees
>extends to every member of the set of addressees, with nobody left
>out.

Sure, but I'm not sure whether we could say anything definite based
on one tantalizing example that admits multiple interpretations. Of
course, if we took that caveat seriously, we wouldn't have anything
to talk about here! All I can say is that the Hebrew 'etxem' isn't in
the least emphatic; it's just what the grammar requires with multiple
addressees. You could add to it an emphatic "kulxem" ("all of you
(all)"), which, I think, is parallel to your French example. Whether
the English is, due to grammatical differences between the two
languages, more emphatic than the Hebrew is an interesting question.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Mon Dec  9 23:50:47 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 17:50:47 -0600
Subject: react (n)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.175047.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On NPR's Sunday Weekend Edition yesterday, a reporter (Don Gonyea) used 'react' as a noun. The quote is: "Here's the official react from the White House in the form of a brief, less than 100-word statement from the press secretary, Ari Fleischer."

Has anyone heard this before? I wondered if it is a common journalistic shorthand or just an idiosyncrasy of this reporter.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec  9 23:54:44 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 18:54:44 EST
Subject: Kolache (1896)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.185444.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK (1999):

_kolache._  Also, "kolach" and "kolacky."  A sweet pastry bun filled with
cheese, poppyseeds, sausage, or, more commonly, jam or fruits like cherry,
apricot, peach, pineapple, or prune, first mentioned in print in Willa
Cather's novel _My Antonia_ (1919).  It is of Czechoslovaqk origins (the
Czech word is _kolace_) and, as "kolacky," entered print about 1915.
   Kolaches are most popular in West Texas, where Czech immigrants settled in
1852.

   This has been driving me crazy.  I've been entering kolache/kolacky/kolace
into the three Making of America databases, the American Periodical Series,
Accessible Archives, the North American Women's Letters and Diaries database,
the American Memory Database, the Gerritsen Collection, the New York Times,
and the Washington Post, and I still couldn't beat a late date of 1919 for MY
ANTONIA.  Embarrassing.
   However, I was just checking the "Popik Collection" here for something
else and found it in an 1896 cook book.   I'll include some other interesting
items from the cook book's index as well.  The book is on NYPL microfilm and
I'll get the full recipe by request.


THE CHICAGO RECORD COOK BOOK
Published by the Chicago Record
1896 (handwritten date--ed.)

New England boiled dinner...53
Zrazrie a la hate...374
VEAL--Parmesan cutlets...345
PORK--Scrappel...586  (Great!  Another spelling!--ed.)
CHICKEN--Kentucky fried...402
SOUPS--Russian chlodnik...374
Belle Calas...86
Biscuit--Stuffed (Bohemian Kolace)...181
Buchtels, Bohemian...433
Flannel cakes...134
Ojalda...338
Pain perdu (see French toastT)...235
Peculiars...344
Singing hinney...103
Top knots...396
Kuchen...182
Kuchen Leb'...96
Tarts, Sand...475
Apple John...71, 401
Brown Betty...451
Hopple Popple...184
Jenny Linde...133
Moonshine...216. 392
Neapolitanoes...209
Slip (see junket)...37
CANDIES--Fudges...176
Pralines...(illegible--ed.)(See new DARE--ed.)
SALAD--Waldorf...503


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Tue Dec 10 00:05:06 2002
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 16:05:06 -0800
Subject: mentor/mentee
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021209144451.20329G-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.160506.0800.>

I've heard it this year in my Leadership class at Simon Fraser University
MBA program in Vancouver BC

and, it's a little too cold for manatees up here, Peter :)

Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Peter Richardson
Sent: December 9, 2002 2:46 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: mentor/mentee


Has anyone heard _mentee_? The pattern is obvious (cf. lessor/lessee), but
I wonder about the specific form. (Personally, I like manatee.)

Thanks.

Peter R.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 10 00:17:05 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 19:17:05 -0500
Subject: Possible antedating for "you all"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212091618120.78551864-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.191705.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>#Compare Tiny Tim's "God bless you, every one", signalling not "you
>#(pl.) as opposed to (sg.)" but the fact that the set of blessees
>#extends to every member of the set of addressees, with nobody left
>#out.
>
>I'm pretty sure that that's "God bless <us>, every one."

Ooops.

>Not that the
>failure of this citation invalidates your point.
>
Exactly.  In fact, the first person makes it even clearer that the
"every one" isn't a disambiguator here, any more (I claim) than the
"all" in the early "you all" cite.

Larry


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Tue Dec 10 00:28:53 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 19:28:53 -0500
Subject: mentor/mentee
In-Reply-To: <AOEIILHHOFBBPLHOHKDFKEAIFKAA.vidamorkunas@telus.net>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.192853.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Has anyone heard _mentee_? The pattern is obvious (cf. lessor/lessee), but
>I wonder about the specific form. (Personally, I like manatee.)

I have been using <mentee> for about a year, self-consciously at first,
now less so.

Bethany


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 01:41:33 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 20:41:33 -0500
Subject: Candy Cane (1865)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.204133.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Someone asked me if I could beat 1897 for "candy cane."  From full text of HARPER'S WEEKLY, pg. 807, 23 December 1865:



Search the Full-Text of Harper's Weekly, 1857-1912
    Return to: Main Menu | New Search

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


65-12-23
Page
Section

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
. . . te it for me?" "Auntie" took her
pen and wrote verbatim at the child's dictation:
"Dear Santa Claus, -- I wish you would get me a lit-
tle dolly, turning around, if that belongs to Christmas;
and a candy cane, if that belongs to Christmas. If it
don't, I don't want it. And an apron for my doll, if
Christmas brings aprons. If it don't, I don't want any.
That is all I want.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 02:04:38 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:04:38 -0500
Subject: Two-gallon hat (1921)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.210438.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   21 November 1921, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 3:
   ...American cow punchers in two-gallon hats...

(There was one 1890 "gallon hat" hit, but I didn't see it in the text.  I might have missed it or it might have been a false hit...There were no hits for "galloon hat" in a pre-1945 check. There are many hits for "galloon," though--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 02:12:03 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:12:03 -0500
Subject: Ten-gallon hat (1920)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.211203.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   From the NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES database:


1. Morrison, Anna Daly. "Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, July, 1920"
[Page 62 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
midnight one Saturday night in a saloon, the truckers were boisterously discussing the topic nearest their hearts-- Diamond T's, the loads they can haul, their speed, gas consumption, etc.-- when a cow puncher with a bandanna around his neck, and wearing chaps, high boots, spurs and a ten-gallon hat, suddenly elevated himself to a standing position on the bar and in a mighty voice shouted, "Listen, all you blankety-blank Diamond T truckers, this is to advise that we're going to punch cattle here next Saturday night and to h-- with Diamond T's." After the truckers leave the hotel



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Results Bibliography
Morrison, Anna Daly, 1884-1957, Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, July, 1920, in Diary of Anna Daly Morrison, Those Were The Days. Boise, ID: Em-Kayan Press, 1951, pp. 446. [Bibliographic Details] [7-17-1920] S1105-D028 Morris:D1105-28


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Tue Dec 10 02:08:43 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:08:43 -0500
Subject: react (n)
In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994341A5@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.210843.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Which syllable did he stress?

Herb

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Gordon, Matthew J.
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 6:51 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: react (n)


On NPR's Sunday Weekend Edition yesterday, a reporter (Don Gonyea) used
'react' as a noun. The quote is: "Here's the official react from the White
House in the form of a brief, less than 100-word statement from the press
secretary, Ari Fleischer."

Has anyone heard this before? I wondered if it is a common journalistic
shorthand or just an idiosyncrasy of this reporter.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 02:22:48 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:22:48 -0500
Subject: "Windy City" is wrong on NBC's TODAY show
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.212248.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Yes, one more time, the New York Sun Charles A. Dana "Windy City" myth.  I'm trying to have the NEW YORK SUN do a daily column on this.  IT NEVER ENDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    The following is from LEXIS-NEXIS...The TODAY show had our Allan Metcalf on recently.  Granted, anything after that would be downhill, but still...



Copyright 2002 National Broadcasting Co. Inc.
NBC News Transcripts


SHOW: Today (7:00 AM ET) - NBC


November 26, 2002 Tuesday

LENGTH: 597 words

HEADLINE: Weather report

ANCHORS: KATIE COURIC; MATT LAUER

REPORTERS: AL ROKER; MIKE LEONARD

BODY:
KATIE COURIC, co-host:

Anyway, we're going to switch gears and head to Chicago and get a check of the weather from Al.

What's going on there, Al?

AL ROKER reporting:

Well, Katie, I'll tell you it's Chicago--it's actually not bad right now, about 24 degrees here, downtown Chicago. Winds aren't too bad. And we always talk about Chicago and the windy city. Well, with us is one of Chicago's favorite sons, Mr. Mike Leonard. Mike, good to see you.

MIKE LEONARD reporting:

Hello, Al. How are you?

ROKER: A lot of people don't know outside of the country that you live here?

LEONARD: About 20 miles north of Chicago. I often just come into the city in the early morning to stand around.

ROKER: So you do that?

LEONARD: Yeah.

ROKER: And it just so happened that we were here.

LEONARD: Get out of my bed early--you were.

ROKER: It kind of worked out pretty well. And the interesting thing is we talk about Chicago being the Windy City, but it's not that windy?

LEONARD: No, actually, really it's not that windy. I mean, it's not even in, like, the top 10. I think it's, like, 21st. The reason it's the Windy City is back in the late 1800s they were doing something, they were trying to get a world's fair here.

ROKER: Mm-hmm.

LEONARD: And a New York columnist was tired of Chicago politicians talking about it and said that, 'Oh, I'm tired of all that windy stuff coming from Chicago,' meaning...

ROKER: Right.

LEONARD: ...talk.

ROKER: Now, I mean, downtown Chicago is very, very unique. I mean, in that you've got layers, you got levels. I mean, like, I know they're about to open--re-open lower Whacker Drive, which is a great name. And they're going to restage a--a Blues Brothers car chase down here.

LEONARD: Yeah.

ROKER: They're all very excited about that. This is--this is--really is a unique town with a--with a river running through the middle of it.

LEONARD: That runs backwards, too.

ROKER: Yeah.

LEONARD: Did you know that?

ROKER: I did not know that.

LEONARD: The river goes backwards. I think, it's the only one in the US. They--they--goes--goes the other way for some sanitary reasons. But it's a cool city because it's easy to get around...

ROKER: Uh-huh.

LEONARD: ...it's clean, it's friendly. It's a city of neighborhoods and, you know, it's been very, very comfortable for all of us to live here.

ROKER: In your--your estimation, what's the one thing that we around the rest of the country don't know about Chicago?

LEONARD: People think it's colder than it is.

ROKER: Mm-hmm.

LEONARD: And--and the windy thing, like that.

ROKER: Right.

LEONARD: But I think it's friendliness.

ROKER: Yeah.

LEONARD: People are very, very friendly, yeah.

ROKER: They are very friendly.

You are a friendly people.

(Crowd cheers)

ROKER: They're a friendly people. And we're having a wonderful time.

Mike Leonard, thank you very much.

LEONARD: Thanks, Al. Nice seeing you again.

ROKER: And nice hat thing.

LEONARD: Thank you.

ROKER: That was very nice. All right.

LEONARD: Intellectual, right?

ROKER: That's what's going on around the country, here's what's happening in your neck of the woods.

(Weather follows)

ROKER: And we want to thank our friends from WMAQ. Their local weather guy, Ed Kearn, is doing the weather right now on WMAQ. We're doing it at the same time.

Now let's go back to you, Matt.

MATT LAUER, co-host:

All right, Al. Thank you very much.

Coming up next, George Clooney. He's not so cute. Right after these messages.

COURIC: I don't know, Matt.

LOAD-DATE: November 27, 2002


From cheerchick94 at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 10 02:50:35 2002
From: cheerchick94 at HOTMAIL.COM (Lakita Hampton)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:50:35 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.215035.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I find that very interesting.







>From: "A. Maberry" <maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 12:10:14 -0800
>
>I think of the following description of Oregonians as mostly applying to
>the Puget Sound region, the home of Nirvana and Kurt Cobain, the flannel-
>shirts grunge-look, skateboards, etc. For me, Gen(eration)-X is more of a
>historical marker for the generation born between 1961 and 1981 that isn't
>really typical of any one area. I never though to the grunge movement or
>Gen-X members, especially those from Washington or Oregon to have much
>connection with surfers or surfer speech (consciously or otherwise).
>
>allen
>maberry at u.washington.edu
>
>
>On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:
>
> > Oregonians -- to the extent that Michiganders knew of their existence --
> > were thought to be obsessive skateboarding (some drug-using) Curt Cobain
> > fans (or however he spelled it), who dressed in at least half-rags, and
> > tried to sound like surfers, when they spoke in multiple syllables at
>all.
> > As I say, young Gen-X subculture types.  This was the stereotype I heard
>the
> > most at the time.  Then again, the classmates I spoke of were in
>Education
> > (sorry, I think I said English), and Michiganders tended to be quite
> > snobbish when it came to having a corner on the "correctness" market.
>As
> > dEnIs has pointed out before.  I find it very odd that a people who
> > pronounce "milk" as [mElk], Wisconsin as [wEsconsIn], and have to say
>"ink
> > pen" for "pen", because they say [pIn] for "pen", claim to be the seat
>of
> > SAE.  Drove me nuts at the time, although I have since then decided it
>is
> > just "cute" and amusing.  :-)
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Fritz Juengling" <Friolly at AOL.COM>
> > To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 7:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
> >
> >
> > > Out of curiosity, how were Oregonians stereotyped?  I didn't know
>anyone
> > back
> > > East ever even thought of Oregon.
> > > Fritz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Those vowel shifts seemed to be related to East Coast
> > > > city shifts, or West Coast bumpkin shifts (in the class's estimation
>at
> > the
> > > > time, that included "ValleySpeak", surfers, counter-culture Gen X
> > > > skateboarders, and other such stereotyped sub-groupings of
>Californians
> > and
> > > > Oregonians.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >


_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Tue Dec 10 02:51:43 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 20:51:43 -0600
Subject: react (n)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.205143.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Stress was on the second syllable.
You can listen for yourself at: http://www.npr.org/programs/wesun/transcripts/2002/dec/021208.gonyea.html

-----Original Message-----
From:   Herbert Stahlke [mailto:hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET]
Sent:   Mon 12/9/2002 8:08 PM
To:     ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Cc:	
Subject:             Re: react (n)

Which syllable did he stress?

Herb

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Gordon, Matthew J.
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 6:51 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: react (n)


On NPR's Sunday Weekend Edition yesterday, a reporter (Don Gonyea) used
'react' as a noun. The quote is: "Here's the official react from the White
House in the form of a brief, less than 100-word statement from the press
secretary, Ari Fleischer."

Has anyone heard this before? I wondered if it is a common journalistic
shorthand or just an idiosyncrasy of this reporter.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 03:36:02 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 22:36:02 -0500
Subject: Nam-pla (1963)
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.223602.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I just got started.  There are plenty of other books here.  OED, as we've been told, has 1969...Do I get a Thai dinner for this?  Maybe a chat with Al Roker on the TODAY show?


THAILAND:
A POLITICAL, SOCIAL, AND ECONOMIC ANALYSIS
by D. Insor
New York: Frederick A. Praeger
1963

Pg. 36:
      FOOD
The word for "rice" and "food" in Thai is almost synonymous; _hew khao_, to be hungry, means literally to be hungry for rice.

Pg. 37:  _Nam-pla_, fish sauce, adds strength and flavour to a meagre diet.


HISTORICAL AND CULTURAL DICTIONARY OF THAILAND
by Harold E. Smith
Historical and Cultural Dictionaries of Asia, No. 6
Metuchen, NJ: The Scarecrow Press, Inc.
1976

Pg. 131:
PLA TU.  The "little mackerel," a local term for the most important marine fish caught in the coastal waters of the Gulf of Thailand and along the shore of the Indian Ocean between Burma and Malaysia.  See PRA MONG.

Pg. 134:
PRA MONG. The name for fishing, to which the bulk of the Thai population, outside of the cities, devotes a part of its time.  Most meals, in fact, consist principally of rice eaten with fish. (...)  Fish sauce (nampla) is an important ingredient in the preparation of Thai food.


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Dec 10 03:41:44 2002
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:41:44 -0600
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <020e01c29fb8$402105a0$b6b89b3f@db>
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.214144.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have not yet seen mention of tarmac. I don't know where I first
heard it. I lived 9 years near Cleveland, 9 north of Boston, 4 near
Phila, 2 in Milwaukee, 1 in South Dakota and 18 (augh!)* in Chicago.
I would guess Cleveland or Boston.

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics

*I just don't need the reminder of how long I have been at this. B

>My first father-in-law (b. Bavaria, 1899) used "colprovia" (which I had
>always assumed was Germanic Kohlprovia--but a google search reveals it's a
>kind of asphalt).  The term "blacktop" differentiates by color in comparison
>with "white" concrete.
>_________________________________
>"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
>--Albert Einstein


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Tue Dec 10 04:19:12 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:19:12 -0700
Subject: Snuzzle -- familiar?
Message-ID: <MON.9.DEC.2002.211912.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I forgot to ask earlier if others are familiar with "snuzzle" in its
snuggly meaning. Apparently the original Scots meaning is "to root or
grub" -- decidedly less cuddly.

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 05:16:23 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 00:16:23 -0500
Subject: Nam pla (1955)
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.001623.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

VILLAGE LIFE IN MODERN THAILAND
by John E. deYoung
Institute of Asiatic Studies, Univ. of California
Bekeley: University of California Press
1955
Fourth printing, 1966

Pg. 101:
   In the Chao Phya river system of the Menam Plain the annual upstream migration of a tiny fish of the cyprinid species, known to the peasants as _pla soi_, is caught by the millions in scoop and dip nets.  When the _pla soi_ are running, every household along the waterways spends most of its time netting the tiny fish.  Much of the yearly catch of _pla soi_ is fermented into the familiar _nam pla_ paste, a basic ingredient in curry in the central plains.

(If Jesse doesn't have a favorite Thai restaurant, I can pick one--ed.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Dec 10 07:30:52 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:30:52 -0500
Subject: Nam pla (1955)
In-Reply-To: <11CCE5FB.357F4B00.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.023052.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A few remarks about these Thai words, according to my naive notions.

The adjective or attributive follows the modified noun, the reverse of the
usual order in English.

"Nam" = "water", also "juice", "liquid", etc. "Pla" = "fish". Thus "nam
pla" = literally "fish juice/sauce". I believe "nam pla" in Thai now refers
to a variety of salty sauces, some of which may not actually be from fish.
[Cf. English "ketchup" which also etymologically once meant more or less
"fish sauce".]

Generally a type of fish X in Thai is named "pla X" = "X fish", so "pla
soi" is the "soi" fish (I don't know whether this word "soi" is simply the
fish's name or whether it also has some other meaning: e.g., cf. "daeng" =
"red", "pla daeng" = "red snapper"). Google search identifies pla soi =
Jullien's mud carp.

If you like *hot* pepper, you can ask for prik ki nu: "prik" =
"pepper"/"chili", "ki" = "shit", "nu" = "mouse", thus "mouse shit pepper",
a little pepper which resembles a mouse dropping. An appetizing
appellation? Conventional in Thai, apparently. Caution is advised in
ordering these; your Thai chef may have a mordant sense of humor.

It is my impression that neither "nam pla" nor "prik ki nu" qualifies as an
English word. Thai persons of my acquaintance virtually always have
referred to nam pla as "fish sauce" when speaking English. The little
mouse-dropping peppers are conventionally called "birdseye" peppers/chilis
in English, I believe. "Pad Thai" OTOH refers to a specific and nowadays
conventional dish in the US (AFAIK), and I believe this is just as English
a word as "sukiyaki" or "gyros" for example. Of course I concede that these
things are not black-and-white.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 08:25:29 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 03:25:29 EST
Subject: Nam pla (1955)
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.032529.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   About three blocks from the NYU Bobst Library, on West 3rd Street near 6th
Avenue, is Thai Village.  It's been there since 1985--forever in NYC
restaurant circles.    Just a few steps away from that is Sammy's Asian.
These words are right in the neighborhood (of English speakers).
   There's no excuse for "Pad Thai" not being in dictionaries.  I don't
recommend including all Thai dishes, but certainly some are justified.
   TIME OUT NEW YORK'S EATING AND DRINKING GUIDE 2003 has a category just for
"Thai."  45 restaurants are listed--and both Thai Village and Sammy's aren't
even in the book.
   THE OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD lists "nam pla" under an entry for "nam
prik."
   WEBSTER'S NEW WORLD DICTIONARY OF CULINARY ARTS, Second Edition (2001)
goes the whole "nam" yards on page 311:

_nam pla_ (num PLAH)  A salty condiment made from fermented fish and used in
Southeast Asian cuisines.
_nam pla raa_ (num plaa raa)  An aromatic Thai sauce made by boiling
fermented fish with crushed lemongrass and kaffir lime leaves.
_nam prik_ (num preek)  A spicy Thai sauce made by pounding together salted
fish, garlic, chiles, nam pla, fresh lime juice, light soy sauce and palm
sugar.
_nam prik num_ (num preek noom)  A thick green vegetable curry from northern
Thailand, usually eaten with sticky rice.
_nam prik pao_ (num phreek pha-o)  A very spicy Thai sauce made from dried
roasted red chiles and traditionally served with rice, vegetables and salads;
also known as roasted chili paste and roasted curry paste.
_nam tan_ (num-tun)  Thai for sugar.


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Tue Dec 10 10:03:47 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:03:47 -0000
Subject: Australian cuisine
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.100347.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One for Barry.

'Calf's Pudding':

1902 Bulletin (Sydney) 12 Jul 16/2: The cow-cocky [ie small outback dairy
farmer] is the most awful and wonderful of the genus - especially the young
rooster. [...] Used to cows all his wretched lifetime, he actually becomes
cow-like [...]. 'Cockies' delight,' [ie treacle] by the way, isnt his only
culinary luxury. Let 'C.J.D.' [a correspondent] taste 'calf-pudding' and
he'll remember it for ever afterwards. A calf's paunch, stuffed with scrub
magpie, water-rat, hog's lard, eel, pig's liver, carrots, turnips, pop-corn,
goose eggs, pumpkin jam, rock salt, _and_ 'Paddy's lucerne,' and boiled for
four days.

Jonathon Green


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Dec 10 11:40:23 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:40:23 -0500
Subject: Nam pla (1955)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021210013236.04a46ec0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.064023.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Dec 10, 2002 at 02:30:52AM -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
> It is my impression that neither "nam pla" nor "prik ki nu" qualifies as an
> English word. Thai persons of my acquaintance virtually always have
> referred to nam pla as "fish sauce" when speaking English. The little
> mouse-dropping peppers are conventionally called "birdseye" peppers/chilis
> in English, I believe. "Pad Thai" OTOH refers to a specific and nowadays
> conventional dish in the US (AFAIK), and I believe this is just as English
> a word as "sukiyaki" or "gyros" for example. Of course I concede that these
> things are not black-and-white.

I certainly don't think that all of Barry's voluminous citations for
foreign food terms qualify as English words, but I absolutely think that
_nam pla_ is used in English contexts without any explanation in a way
that suggests it has become naturalized. I see it all the time, not just
in narrow Thai-cookery use. I'd probably agree that _prik ki nu_ isn't
quite ready for prime time, but _nam pla_ does.

Barry, let me know if you beat or check the first edition of the 1955
book, or I'll have to get someone to do it.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Dec 10 13:00:32 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:00:32 -0500
Subject: "Mispronouncing" names
In-Reply-To: <012b01c29fbd$15b64fa0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.080032.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Millie,

A little cross-dialectal hypercorrection (which makes it something
else of course) among friends is OK.

dInIs



Sorry, [dInIs], I mistyped your name in my own pronunciation in stead
of yours.  There we go again on "mispronouncing" names.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Millie Webb" <millie-webb at CHARTER.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


  Then again, the classmates I spoke of were in Education
>  (sorry, I think I said English), and Michiganders tended to be quite
>  snobbish when it came to having a corner on the "correctness" market.  As
>  dEnIs has pointed out before.

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Dec 10 13:15:49 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:15:49 -0500
Subject: react (n)
In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994341A5@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.081549.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Where was the stress? REact or reACT? I'd take (small) bets on the former.

dInIs


On NPR's Sunday Weekend Edition yesterday, a reporter (Don Gonyea)
used 'react' as a noun. The quote is: "Here's the official react from
the White House in the form of a brief, less than 100-word statement
from the press secretary, Ari Fleischer."

Has anyone heard this before? I wondered if it is a common
journalistic shorthand or just an idiosyncrasy of this reporter.

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Dec 10 13:27:29 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:27:29 -0500
Subject: Nam pla (1955)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021210013236.04a46ec0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.082729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Seeing Thai "prik" reminds me after many years of forgetting of Mary
Haas' wonderful old article about accidental obscenities (and how to
avoid them). If I remember correctly, a group of Thai students in the
US became self-conscious when talking about one of their common food
ingredients ("prik" = pepper, chili) because of English-speaking
overhearers (who doubtless heard "prick"). On learning the English
meaning of this unfortunate bilingual homophony, they substituted
"lingam" for "prik" when they were in earshot of English speakers.

dInIs




A few remarks about these Thai words, according to my naive notions.

The adjective or attributive follows the modified noun, the reverse of the
usual order in English.

"Nam" = "water", also "juice", "liquid", etc. "Pla" = "fish". Thus "nam
pla" = literally "fish juice/sauce". I believe "nam pla" in Thai now refers
to a variety of salty sauces, some of which may not actually be from fish.
[Cf. English "ketchup" which also etymologically once meant more or less
"fish sauce".]

Generally a type of fish X in Thai is named "pla X" = "X fish", so "pla
soi" is the "soi" fish (I don't know whether this word "soi" is simply the
fish's name or whether it also has some other meaning: e.g., cf. "daeng" =
"red", "pla daeng" = "red snapper"). Google search identifies pla soi =
Jullien's mud carp.

If you like *hot* pepper, you can ask for prik ki nu: "prik" =
"pepper"/"chili", "ki" = "shit", "nu" = "mouse", thus "mouse shit pepper",
a little pepper which resembles a mouse dropping. An appetizing
appellation? Conventional in Thai, apparently. Caution is advised in
ordering these; your Thai chef may have a mordant sense of humor.

It is my impression that neither "nam pla" nor "prik ki nu" qualifies as an
English word. Thai persons of my acquaintance virtually always have
referred to nam pla as "fish sauce" when speaking English. The little
mouse-dropping peppers are conventionally called "birdseye" peppers/chilis
in English, I believe. "Pad Thai" OTOH refers to a specific and nowadays
conventional dish in the US (AFAIK), and I believe this is just as English
a word as "sukiyaki" or "gyros" for example. Of course I concede that these
things are not black-and-white.

-- Doug Wilson

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Dec 10 13:30:06 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:30:06 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.083006.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Tarmac" for me is restricted to airports--never heard it in other contexts.
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Dec 10 13:43:40 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:43:40 -0500
Subject: Presidential scholars
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.084340.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Colleagues,

I about to go to my thinking-place and decide on the recipients of
this year's Presidential Honorary Membership Awards (as described in
the most recent NADS).

To refresh your memory -

Every year the President of ADS selects an elite group of students
(usually three) who have made outstanding contributions to our field.
In addition to the honor of being selected, each gets

1) Four free membership years, and

2) Free luncheon (and personal recognition) at the annual meeting,
this year in Atlanta of course, but with the option of putting off
this part of the award until a later date if the recipient cannot
attend (although that is almost unthinkable to me since I will give
this year's luncheon address), and

3) (almost always) a photograph for the recipient's treasured
memories book of her or himself with the ADS President and other
honorees.

I remind all members that I must be given a description of the
nominee's qualifications as soon as possible, even if we have
previously discussed your nominee in a hallway, bistro,
watering-hole, or even an electronic medium. Please do not depend on
my memory; now is the time to pick up your keyboard and nominate (or
re-nominate, as the case may be).

Best,

dInIs


--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 13:46:41 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:46:41 EST
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.084641.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/9/02 10:39:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes:

> I have not yet seen mention of tarmac.

MWCD10 page 1206 column 2, says that "Tarmac" is a trademark, then gives a
generic "tarmac" dated as 1919 "a tarmacadam road, apron, or runway".

"tarmacadam" is dated 1882 and "macadam" as 1824.

For some reason "tarmac" always sounds British to me---perhaps I encountered
it reading about bombers taking off from Britain during World War II.
However I just checked with a pilot here and he says "tarmac", meaning "the
area where the planes are parked" is widely used among aviation people in the
US, so it seems I am wrong.

A few words about "macadam" (does that make me a macadam nut?):

In a message dated 12/6/02 9:08:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, AAllan at AOL.COM
writes:

> DARE has an extensive entry for "macadam," complete with map: it's chiefly
>  Northeast, MidAtlantic, and North Central (esp. Ohio) for this definition:
>  "originally a road pavement made of layers of packed crushed rock,
sometimes
>  strengthened by applying a bituminous binder; now usually blacktop or a
>  similar paving material."

This provides a useful example for the current thread, which is "when does
the word change or not change when the referent changes?" slash "why does the
word change when the referent does not change?"

I pointed out that the word (sometimes) changes when there is an obvious
change to the referent (e.g. there is an obvious difference between an icebox
and a refrigerator, namely the presence or absence of the iceman) and
(sometimes) does not change when the change to the referent is not obvious to
the general public (e.g. eyeglasses no longer always made of glass, steam
rollers and steam shovels no longer powered by steam).

If we are talking about words used in general speech (e.g. "glasses", "steam
roller") then I think it safe to say that what counts is whether the general
public realizes that there is a significant change to the referent.  In the
case of iceboxes, yes, the change was obvious.  In the case of glasses and
brooms, it was not.

So we have the word "macadam" and its referent, which manages to split the
difference.  To some members of teh general public, the difference between
macadam and asphalt is obvious.  To others, the difference is not---they
distinguish between unpaved and paved, the latter being either macadam or
asphalt, who cares?.  (I am ignoring the existence of concrete roads as not
relevant to this particular discussion.)

So we have an example of an incomplete changeover in the word due to an
incomplete popular realization of a change to the referent.

It is interesting that DARE finds this to be a regional term: "chiefly
Northeast, MidAtlantic, and North Central (esp. Ohio)"
1) Were the old-style macadam roads (i.e. those made of crushed rock) more
common in the Northeast-MidAtlantic-North Central area than elsewhere
(possible), in which case the dialect preference is explained simply by the
relative ubiquitousness of the referent?
2) Or for some reason was the term "macadam" more widely used in this region
for a type of crushed-rock pavement widely found in the USA?
3) Or was the Northeast-MidAtlantic-North Central area more conservative in
holding onto the term "macadam" after the switchover to asphalt roads?
(Which could be a result of there already being more macadam roads in that
area---in the rest of the country, paved roads were more of a novelty and
hence the terms "blacktop" or "asphalt" were more readily adopted since the
term "macadam" was not widely used due to a lack of referents)

      - Jim Landau (trying to pave the way for the resumption of this thread)


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Tue Dec 10 14:07:05 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 09:07:05 -0500
Subject: Kolache (1896)
In-Reply-To: <7a.32b02184.2b268744@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.090705.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 06:54 PM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Kolaches are most popular in West Texas, where Czech immigrants settled in
>1852.


Mandatory on road trips - or sometime the excuse for one - was a stop for
kolaches at "The Little Czech Bakery"  (or any of the several bakeries that
bank a stretch of I-35) in West, Texas - the actual name of the town. Not
west Texas - out by Midland-Odessa.  I wonder which one the citation is
referring to?

Something else that might be of interest to Mr. Popik. That same bakery not
only has kolaches, but sausage stuffed dough thingys they call "Little
Chubbies" - not widespread American food - but damn popular in Central
Texas. Get the "Spicy Chubbies" with or without cheese.

One more thing of interest to Mr. Popik - watch for Safire's Dec. 15th
column. Merry Christmas.


Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Dec 10 14:56:52 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 06:56:52 -0800
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <020e01c29fb8$402105a0$b6b89b3f@db>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.065652.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Then there's the term "asphalt concrete", which is
used in many bid specifications for asphalt.  It
confused me the first time I saw it, wondering if it
was offering an option between concrete or asphalt at
the bidders discretion.

To me, "tarmac" is always associated with airfields.

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 10 15:13:54 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:13:54 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <005d01c2a050$41abc840$a2b89b3f@db>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.101354.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, David Bergdahl wrote:

#"Tarmac" for me is restricted to airports--never heard it in other contexts.

Same here.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 10 15:24:54 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:24:54 -0500
Subject: Nam pla, prik ki nu
In-Reply-To: <20021210114023.GB15716@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.102454.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:40 AM -0500 12/10/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Tue, Dec 10, 2002 at 02:30:52AM -0500, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>
>>  It is my impression that neither "nam pla" nor "prik ki nu" qualifies as an
>>  English word. Thai persons of my acquaintance virtually always have
>>  referred to nam pla as "fish sauce" when speaking English. The little
>>  mouse-dropping peppers are conventionally called "birdseye" peppers/chilis
>>  in English, I believe. "Pad Thai" OTOH refers to a specific and nowadays
>>  conventional dish in the US (AFAIK), and I believe this is just as English
>>  a word as "sukiyaki" or "gyros" for example. Of course I concede that these
>>  things are not black-and-white.
>
>I certainly don't think that all of Barry's voluminous citations for
>foreign food terms qualify as English words, but I absolutely think that
>_nam pla_ is used in English contexts without any explanation in a way
>that suggests it has become naturalized. I see it all the time, not just
>in narrow Thai-cookery use. I'd probably agree that _prik ki nu_ isn't
>quite ready for prime time, but _nam pla_ does.
>
Agreed, but the former does occupy a nice place in the annals of
linguistics.  Mary Haas wrote a classic article in the 1950's, later
anthologized in Dell Hymes's 1964 reader _Language in Culture and
Society_, on cross-linguistic taboo avoidance, in which she observed
that Thai students in the U.S., not wanting to be overheard
requesting _prik_ in its various forms, substituted "lingam", the
Sanskrit word (familiar to those of you who have memorized the Kama
Sutra) for the male member.

larry


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Dec 10 15:40:17 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:40:17 -0500
Subject: Kolache (1896)
In-Reply-To: <7a.32b02184.2b268744@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.104017.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

kolac (length mark over a, hacek over c) is the singular in Czech; kolace
(ditto) would be the plural.

However, like practically every word in Czech, it is also commonly
known in the diminutive, kolacky (plural, I am assuming of the
diminuitive kolacek, which I've never actually heard of). (Again, length
marks over the a's and hacky over the c's.)

Even though I didn't learn Czech at home, this is one item (along with
some other food terms, swears, and the phrase "come here") that is
completely native for me. My grandmother makes excellent ones; and in my
Michigan hometown, until very recently, there was a sausage dance each
year, where they made sausages (jitrnice) and kolacky and ate and danced.
Almost all of the foreign-born Czechs are dead there, now, and very few
first-generation (my grandma's 85) ones are left. I got to witness an
immense amount of the cultural aspect of this when I was a kid though.

The 'ch' spelling (which I've never seen -- then again I would have only
seen it written out in Czech) is the anglicization of the c-hacek.

They're very delicious.

-- Steve


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 15:48:18 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 10:48:18 EST
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.104818.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/10/02 9:57:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM writes:

> Then there's the term "asphalt concrete", which is
>  used in many bid specifications for asphalt.  It
>  confused me the first time I saw it, wondering if it
>  was offering an option between concrete or asphalt at
>  the bidders discretion.

It's a technical term among civil engineers.  "Asphalt concrete" is blacktop.
 The stuff that is poured out of concrete mixers is "cement concrete".  The
base term "concrete" here is in a sense which the MWCD10 dates as 1656: "a
mass formed by concretion or coalescence of separate particles of matter in
one body."

The layman's meaning of "concrete" is MWCD10 sense 2 "a hard strong building
material made by mixing a cementing material (as Portland cement) and a
mineral aggregate (as sand and gravel) with sufficient water to cause the
cement to set and bind the entire mass".  The referent, though not the word,
goes back to Roman times---the Romans made a concrete using pozzolana instead
of Portland cement, which was not invented until 1824.

By the way, "aggregate" is also a technical term in civil
engineering---MWCD10 sense 2b "any of several hard inert materials (as sand,
grael, or slag) used for mixing with a cementing material to form concrete,
mortar, or plaster".  Note that this definition uses the layman's rather than
the civil engineer's definition of "concrete".

Martin Marietta Aerospace (now Lockheed-Martin) owned (and maybe still owns)
of all things an "Aggregate Division" which sold sand and/or gravel.  A few
years ago, when Martin Marietta's contract here at the Tech Center was about
to expire, the running joke was "Don't worry.  Martin will give you a job in
the Aggregate Division."  (Happy ending, too---the ex-Martin people got jobs
with 8a contractors).

        - James A. Landau
          systems engineer
          FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI)
          Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA

P.S.  I too have heard "tarnac" used only in reference to airports.


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 16:18:49 2002
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:18:49 EST
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.111849.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've been following this thread intermittently, forgive me if it's been
mentioned, but I used to be puzzled in Upstate NY by signs the highway dept.
would put up  "Road recently oiled"  which meant they'd put a new layer of
what we called "tar" down as far as I could tell.  Not sure what the "oil"
referred to.

The blacktop for us was a basketball court or other play area with blacktop
on it.

Dale Coye
Princeton, NJ.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 10 16:26:59 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:26:59 -0500
Subject: Searching Old English Cases
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.112659.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I now have access to an Internet resource allowing searching of the entire
body of pre-1865 English case law.  If anyone has any words, phrases,
proverbs, or quotations that he or she thinks can fruitfully be searched
in such a database, please let me know so I can try them.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Tue Dec 10 16:36:35 2002
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:36:35 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.113635.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In northern Delaware, used oil, often used motor oil, was sprayed onto
dirt roads to lessen the amount of dust that would be raised by
traffic.  Such work was usually done during the days of Summer.

George Cole
Shippensburg University


From gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU  Tue Dec 10 16:38:53 2002
From: gscole at ARK.SHIP.EDU (GSCole)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:38:53 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.113853.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Delmar, Delaware, in the early 1960s, some people referred to the
roads that were not topped with blacktop as being 'light roads'.  Those
roads were nothing but sand, and the sand was usually light in 'color'.

George Cole
Shippensburg University


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Dec 10 16:44:40 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:44:40 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <15b.18b39457.2b276de9@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.114440.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I've been following this thread intermittently, forgive me if it's been
>mentioned, but I used to be puzzled in Upstate NY by signs the highway dept.
>would put up  "Road recently oiled"  which meant they'd put a new layer of
>what we called "tar" down as far as I could tell.  Not sure what the "oil"
>referred to.
>
>The blacktop for us was a basketball court or other play area with blacktop
>on it.
>
>Dale Coye
>Princeton, NJ.
~~~~~~~~
It may be a practice now abandoned for environmental considerations, but I
believe the "recently oiled"  warnings  did actually refer to oil being
spread on dust&gravel roads to keep the dust down in dry weather.  Our town
had quite a few miles of unpaved roads    in the 70s & 80s  which would be
oiled for a stretch  near the occasional house, as a favor to the residents.
A. Murie


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Dec 10 16:41:41 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:41:41 -0800
Subject: "Windy City" and Whacker Drive
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021210081536.8055A-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.084141.0800.PRICHARD@LINFIELD.EDU>

Nice to know about all those friendly people in Chicago. But is the
mistake in the spelling/pronunciation of Wacker Drive...

(from Barry:)
I mean, downtown Chicago is very, very unique. I mean, in that
you've got layers, you got levels. I mean, like, I know they're about to
open--re-open lower Whacker Drive, which is a great name.

...likely to be a hypercorrection because of our old friend wh-/w-? Or has
the street been renamed to reflect a sudden increase in urban assaults?

Peter R.


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Dec 10 17:19:57 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:19:57 -0500
Subject: Candy Cane (1865)
In-Reply-To: <3FA7BFD2.1F99358B.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.121957.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Would that children asked for so little these days. . . .

At 08:41 PM 12/9/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>    Someone asked me if I could beat 1897 for "candy cane."  From full
> text of HARPER'S WEEKLY, pg. 807, 23 December 1865:
>
>
>
>Search the Full-Text of Harper's Weekly, 1857-1912
>     Return to: Main Menu | New Search
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>65-12-23
>Page
>Section
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>.. . . te it for me?" "Auntie" took her
>pen and wrote verbatim at the child's dictation:
>"Dear Santa Claus, -- I wish you would get me a lit-
>tle dolly, turning around, if that belongs to Christmas;
>and a candy cane, if that belongs to Christmas. If it
>don't, I don't want it. And an apron for my doll, if
>Christmas brings aprons. If it don't, I don't want any.
>That is all I want.


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Dec 10 17:52:47 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:52:47 -0500
Subject: Presidential scholars
In-Reply-To: <a05010409ba1b9cae5133@[35.12.24.188]>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.125247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis, must the nominee be a student now, or could a recent M.A., say,
qualify?

At 08:43 AM 12/10/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Colleagues,
>
>I about to go to my thinking-place and decide on the recipients of
>this year's Presidential Honorary Membership Awards (as described in
>the most recent NADS).
>
>To refresh your memory -
>
>Every year the President of ADS selects an elite group of students
>(usually three) who have made outstanding contributions to our field.
>In addition to the honor of being selected, each gets
>
>1) Four free membership years, and
>
>2) Free luncheon (and personal recognition) at the annual meeting,
>this year in Atlanta of course, but with the option of putting off
>this part of the award until a later date if the recipient cannot
>attend (although that is almost unthinkable to me since I will give
>this year's luncheon address), and
>
>3) (almost always) a photograph for the recipient's treasured
>memories book of her or himself with the ADS President and other
>honorees.
>
>I remind all members that I must be given a description of the
>nominee's qualifications as soon as possible, even if we have
>previously discussed your nominee in a hallway, bistro,
>watering-hole, or even an electronic medium. Please do not depend on
>my memory; now is the time to pick up your keyboard and nominate (or
>re-nominate, as the case may be).
>
>Best,
>
>dInIs
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>740 Wells Hall A
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>Office - (517) 353-0740
>Fax - (517) 432-2736


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Dec 10 18:22:54 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:22:54 -0500
Subject: roads recently oiled
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.132254.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On unpaved country roads initially the dirt floor is leveled, pot holes
filled with gravel, and then crushed rock or gravel is spread over the road;
if there's enough warrent to do so a steam roller presses the rock or gravel
into the dirt floor, or the weight of traffic is used to compress the road.
Then as a final step, and occasionally when dust is a problem, a layer of
oil--often discarded engine oil from oil changes--is applied; often, if the
traffic requires it, macadam is applied over this "old road" to bring it up
to a more civilized standard.

If you happen to drive on a pebble-and-oil road, the purchase of kerosene
(aka "coal oil") and a lot of rubbing is needed to remove the gelatinous
mess on your tires and fenders.
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Tue Dec 10 18:44:59 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:44:59 -0600
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.124459.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

According to a friend of mine in the insurance industry (albeit six years
ago), asphalt/blacktop/tar is made from essentially "crude oil" (what is
that term I am looking for...?), making it incredibly difficult to remove
all traces of a "gas spill" on an asphalt parking lot, for example in a
gasoline station lot.  You pull up the blacktop to remove the top layer of
dirt "in case" the gas leaked through, but then the top layers of dirt will
always test positive for traces of "gasoline" because of the makeup of the
asphalt/blacktop.  In essence, whether the gas spill actually leaked through
the parking lot or not, you end up tearing up the parking lot asphalt, and
several layers deep of the dirt underneath, trying to remove all traces of
"oil by-products" in soil that has been covered with asphalt for (possibly)
years.  Surprise, surprise, when you check areas adjoining the portion of
the lot on which gas was spilled, you also find oil by-products there, and
have to tear that up to, to remove the "contamination".  It can get
ridiculous pretty quickly.

Anyway, my point was, even if it is "blacktop", I suppose one could
technically say it was "recently oiled" when they really mean they put
another thin layer of blacktop over it.  That is the practice I understood
Dale to be referring to, not the grading and then wetting down of dirt roads
(whether with oil or water).
-- Millie
----- Original Message -----
From: "sagehen" <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: blacktop/macadam


> >I've been following this thread intermittently, forgive me if it's been
> >mentioned, but I used to be puzzled in Upstate NY by signs the highway
dept.
> >would put up  "Road recently oiled"  which meant they'd put a new layer
of
> >what we called "tar" down as far as I could tell.  Not sure what the
"oil"
> >referred to.
> >
> >The blacktop for us was a basketball court or other play area with
blacktop
> >on it.
> >
> >Dale Coye
> >Princeton, NJ.
> ~~~~~~~~
> It may be a practice now abandoned for environmental considerations, but I
> believe the "recently oiled"  warnings  did actually refer to oil being
> spread on dust&gravel roads to keep the dust down in dry weather.  Our
town
> had quite a few miles of unpaved roads    in the 70s & 80s  which would be
> oiled for a stretch  near the occasional house, as a favor to the
residents.
> A. Murie
>


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Tue Dec 10 18:48:49 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:48:49 -0600
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.124849.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As I said, this was the vague impression of Mid-Landers, who had probably
never even been "out there".  And a lot of Washingtonians and Oregonians for
a while there, seemed to be transplants from California, and thus, the
perceived spread of the "surfer-like" speech.

----- Original Message -----
From: "FRITZ JUENGLING" <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent


> Wow! Amazing how distorted things can be! I think Curt and his band,
Nirvana, were from Seattle, the alleged home of grunge, which is what I
think you are describing. As far as sounding like surfers--I don't think so.
I can't imagine anyone trying to sound like a surfer here. That's just a
different culture.  (Also, the water's too cold to be into surfing, unless
you have a thick wet suit).  I guess we Oregonians are just 'out there'
(i.e. West) and are largely unknown.  That's just fine.
> Fritz
>
>


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Dec 10 18:58:22 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:58:22 -0500
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <3DF61813.840BE057@ark.ship.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.135822.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, GSCole wrote:

> In northern Delaware, used oil, often used motor oil, was sprayed onto
> dirt roads to lessen the amount of dust that would be raised by
> traffic.  Such work was usually done during the days of Summer.

Isn't it such oil that was indadvertently mixed with dioxin that was
sprayed on the streets of the doomed Times Beach, Missouri?

-- Steve


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 10 19:19:23 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:19:23 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Kolache=20(1896)?=
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.141923.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/10/02 10:40:59 AM, stevekl at PANIX.COM writes:


> kolac (length mark over a, hacek over c) is the singular in Czech; kolace
> (ditto) would be the plural.
>
> However, like practically every word in Czech, it is also commonly
> known in the diminutive, kolacky (plural, I am assuming of the
> diminuitive kolacek, which I've never actually heard of). (Again, length
> marks over the a's and hacky over the c's.)
>
> Even though I didn't learn Czech at home, this is one item (along with
> some other food terms, swears, and the phrase "come here") that is
> completely native for me. My grandmother makes excellent ones; and in my
> Michigan hometown, until very recently, there was a sausage dance each
> year, where they made sausages (jitrnice) and kolacky and ate and danced.
> Almost all of the foreign-born Czechs are dead there, now, and very few
> first-generation (my grandma's 85) ones are left. I got to witness an
> immense amount of the cultural aspect of this when I was a kid though.
>
> The 'ch' spelling (which I've never seen -- then again I would have only
> seen it written out in Czech) is the anglicization of the c-hacek.
>
> They're very delicious.
>
> -- Steve
>

Like Steve, I spent part of my childhood in a Czech neighborhood (though my
ancestors were not Czech). This particular pastry was very popular, though
people of my generation never said /kolaki/ nor /kolace/: the vernacular
singular was always /kolac/ and the plural was /kolaciz/--the /i/ was usually
tense/long, like the /i/ of "gasoline" (I'm using /c/ here to represent the
alveopalatal fricative that is usually spelled <ch>). Bakeries and grocery
stores spelled the word <kolache>, plural <kolaches>.

> I never heard of jitrnice; other words that I associate with that period of
> my life as Czechisms are KHOLRABI (a kind of vegetable that we ate
> raw--tasted like a turnip), BUBBY 'grandmother' and JETTA 'grandfather'.
> There was also a swear phrase which we learned as YUCKY DUMB POOPEK--I have
> no idea what it meant, but we were told it was pretty bad.
>
I guess it was quite a different world--when stealing and eating raw kohlrabi
from Jetta's garden and shouting YUCKY DUMB POOPEK at each other were major
ways to be a bad boy.
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 10 19:27:30 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:27:30 -0500
Subject: "Windy City" and Whacker Drive
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021210083702.8055G-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.142730.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:41 AM -0800 12/10/02, Peter Richardson wrote:
>Nice to know about all those friendly people in Chicago. But is the
>mistake in the spelling/pronunciation of Wacker Drive...
>
>(from Barry:)
>I mean, downtown Chicago is very, very unique. I mean, in that
>you've got layers, you got levels. I mean, like, I know they're about to
>open--re-open lower Whacker Drive, which is a great name.
>
>...likely to be a hypercorrection because of our old friend wh-/w-? Or has
>the street been renamed to reflect a sudden increase in urban assaults?
>
I was thinking of a less violent, more off-color (re)interpretation.
Of course on the reading I had in mind, one would have to be
particularly wary of distracted drivers around Whacker.  (Driving
while operating a handheld cell-phone is bad enough...)

Larry


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Tue Dec 10 19:59:33 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:59:33 -0500
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Kolache=20(1896)?=
In-Reply-To: <124.1b3a36d2.2b27983b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.145933.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002 RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:

> I guess it was quite a different world--when stealing and eating raw kohlrabi
> from Jetta's garden and shouting YUCKY DUMB POOPEK at each other were major
> ways to be a bad boy.

pupek = navel
pupicek = belly-button

We ate kohlrabi, too, but the word's not Czech. The Czech word for
kohlrabi is kedluben. Kohlrabi is English, and it's dervied from German.

-- Steve Kl.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Dec 10 20:55:48 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:55:48 -0500
Subject: Presidential scholars
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021210125133.00b7cef8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.155548.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>It has always been current students; I think I would lke to stick with that.

Dennis

>Dennis, must the nominee be a student now, or could a recent M.A., say,
>qualify?
>
>At 08:43 AM 12/10/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>Colleagues,
>>
>>I about to go to my thinking-place and decide on the recipients of
>>this year's Presidential Honorary Membership Awards (as described in
>>the most recent NADS).
>>
>>To refresh your memory -
>>
>>Every year the President of ADS selects an elite group of students
>>(usually three) who have made outstanding contributions to our field.
>>In addition to the honor of being selected, each gets
>>
>>1) Four free membership years, and
>>
>>2) Free luncheon (and personal recognition) at the annual meeting,
>>this year in Atlanta of course, but with the option of putting off
>>this part of the award until a later date if the recipient cannot
>>attend (although that is almost unthinkable to me since I will give
>>this year's luncheon address), and
>>
>>3) (almost always) a photograph for the recipient's treasured
>>memories book of her or himself with the ADS President and other
>>honorees.
>>
>>I remind all members that I must be given a description of the
>>nominee's qualifications as soon as possible, even if we have
>>previously discussed your nominee in a hallway, bistro,
>>watering-hole, or even an electronic medium. Please do not depend on
>>my memory; now is the time to pick up your keyboard and nominate (or
>>re-nominate, as the case may be).
>>
>>Best,
>>
>>dInIs
>>
>>
>>--
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>Professor of Linguistics
>>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>>740 Wells Hall A
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>>Office - (517) 353-0740
>>Fax - (517) 432-2736

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Dec 10 21:28:35 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:28:35 -0500
Subject: Nam pla (1955)
In-Reply-To: <20021210114023.GB15716@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.162835.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... I absolutely think that _nam pla_ is used in English contexts without
>any explanation in a way that suggests it has become naturalized. I see it
>all the time, not just in narrow Thai-cookery use.

My experience is somewhat different. Of course I don't claim that my own
little life includes a broad cross-section of anything much. I can say that
in many hundreds of hours of more-or-less-English conversation with Thai
nationals who use nam pla routinely I've seldom heard it called "nam pla"
(although I think it would usually be obvious that I would understand
this). In English it's "fish sauce", or so seem to think these people.
Today I ran it by a local college-student savant of my acquaintance (the
next Tiger Woods?) who has been raised by a Thai-immigrant mother; he
understands only very little Thai; he says he understands "nam pla" as the
Thai word for what he and his mother would call "fish sauce" in English; he
says that if his mother wanted him to pick up a bottle of nam pla she would
call it "[Thai] fish sauce" probably. [Of course Thais vary just as do
US-ans or New Yorkers or whatever.]

I did a little Google experiment. In order to suppress recipes and culinary
dictionaries as well as non-English contexts I added "some": certainly if
"nam pla" is conventionally used in English then "some nam pla" will occur
too, and probably roughly proportionately. I've compared some near synonyms
and also some analogous words. [In particular, note Sriracha sauce, which
has no good synonym to my knowledge (unlike nam pla = fish sauce): this is
apparently named after a town; I don't know whether it's also a brand name;
it is a distinctive Thai hot sauce which I have ingested in large
quantities; the first "r" is silent.]

Search of Usenet (groups) provides a check on the Web search.

Number of hits (Web; Usenet):

"some nam pla" 4; 6
"some nuoc mam" [Vietnamese equivalent] 6; 6
"some patis" [Filipino eq.] 10; 5
"some tuk trey" [Cambodian eq.] 0; 0
"some sauce de poisson" [French West African ?eq.] 0; 0

"some fish sauce" 82; 60
"some Thai fish sauce" 10; 8
"some Vietnamese fish sauce" 2; 1

"some ketchup" + "some catsup" 990; 1065
"some Worcestershire sauce" 102; 100
"some Tabasco sauce" 212; 162
"some soy sauce" 718; 742
"some Sriracha sauce" 4; 2
"some hot sauce" 728; 535
"some picante sauce" 38; 31
"some Thai hot sauce" 3; 1

Another analogous comparison:

"bottle of nam pla" 4; 5
"bottle of nuoc mam" 10; 8
"bottle of patis" 9; 4
"bottle of Sriracha" 10; 13
"bottle of fish sauce" 57; 29
"bottle of Thai fish sauce" 3; 11
"bottle of Vietnamese fish sauce" 1; 0

[I have checked for alternate spellings, e.g. "nampla", "nam bpla", but I
haven't done so for all the comparisons.]

This sort of search is of course not flawless but I believe the results
have more weight than an isolated person's casual impression (even mine!).
I would say that if one's threshold is set to accept "nam pla" then one
will need to include "picante", "nuoc mam", "patis", and "Sriracha" too,
according to these data. Note that Vietnamese fish sauce seems to be called
by its Vietnamese name proportionally more than is Thai fish sauce called
by its Thai name.

My own opinion BTW (FWLIW!) favors inclusiveness: when in doubt, put it in.
I am very annoyed when I can't find a word in the big dictionary!

-- Doug Wilson


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 10 21:40:16 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:40:16 -0500
Subject: Australian cuisine
In-Reply-To: <000901c2a033$6ef76b00$ad00a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.164016.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Jonathon Green wrote:

#1902 Bulletin (Sydney) 12 Jul 16/2: The cow-cocky [ie small outback dairy
#farmer] is the most awful and wonderful of the genus - especially the young
#rooster. [...] Used to cows all his wretched lifetime, he actually becomes
#cow-like [...]. 'Cockies' delight,' [ie treacle] by the way, isnt his only
#culinary luxury. Let 'C.J.D.' [a correspondent] taste 'calf-pudding' and
#he'll remember it for ever afterwards. A calf's paunch, stuffed with scrub
#magpie, water-rat, hog's lard, eel, pig's liver, carrots, turnips, pop-corn,
#goose eggs, pumpkin jam, rock salt, _and_ 'Paddy's lucerne,' and boiled for
#four days.

The way one remembers a particularly painful and embarrassing moment
from one's childhood?

-- Mark A. Mandel


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Tue Dec 10 23:49:49 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 17:49:49 -0600
Subject: Kolache (1896)
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.174949.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If you want to get technical, Kohlrabi is actually German, not English (not
"derived from German").

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Kl." <stevekl at PANIX.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: Re:       Re: Kolache (1896)


> pupek = navel
> pupicek = belly-button
>
> We ate kohlrabi, too, but the word's not Czech. The Czech word for
> kohlrabi is kedluben. Kohlrabi is English, and it's dervied from German.
>
> -- Steve Kl.
>


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Wed Dec 11 01:03:37 2002
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 20:03:37 EST
Subject: blacktop/macadam
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.200337.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/10/2002 12:43:39 PM Central Standard Time,
millie-webb at CHARTER.NET writes:


> Anyway, my point was, even if it is "blacktop", I suppose one could
> technically say it was "recently oiled" when they really mean they put
> another thin layer of blacktop over it.  That is the practice I understood
> Dale to be referring to, not the grading and then wetting down of dirt
> roads
> (whether with oil or water).
>
Yes, thanks, Millie-- the roads I meant were not dirt roads, but paved roads
to begin with, and the road crews would come in and repair them from time to
time, adding another layer of asphalt (I think).

Dale Coye


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Wed Dec 11 01:18:53 2002
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:18:53 -0600
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.191853.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed one
word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out the
spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
research this.
TIA
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Dec 11 02:24:58 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:24:58 -0500
Subject: Nam pla, prik ki nu
In-Reply-To: <p04320402ba1bb634fbd3@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.212458.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Mary Haas wrote a classic article in the 1950's, later
>anthologized in Dell Hymes's 1964 reader _Language in Culture and
>Society_, on cross-linguistic taboo avoidance, in which she observed
>that Thai students in the U.S., not wanting to be overheard
>requesting _prik_ in its various forms, substituted "lingam", the
>Sanskrit word (familiar to those of you who have memorized the Kama
>Sutra) for the male member.

I had never heard this story. I just now looked it up (1964 Hymes book).
The idea apparently was: "Somebody said we shouldn't call this pepper
'prik' because that sounds like an obscene word for 'penis' in English. So
what shall we call it? I know! Let's call it 'leung'!" Of course 'leung' =
"penis" in Thai, which apparently is/was not considered [too] obscene in
the Thai context (all-male). I suppose this was essentially a joke among
the Thai guys. The word substituted was apparently "leung"
(orthographically "leungka" or so with the last syllable silent; "eu" = IPA
inverted-m, high back unrounded vowel [represented by "y" in Haas's
article]): AFAIK this is just a conventional Thai word, but I suppose it is
cognate with Sanskrit "lingam" as Haas says.

I HAVE heard a very analogous joke/legend from Thai students and
immigrants; I must have heard 4-5 versions since about 1975. This is about
a Thai shopper at the market looking for "fak" (Thai for "squash" or so)
which of course sounds like that F-word. I don't know whether any Thai ever
had a real problem with this word or whether it's just pure imagination.

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Dec 11 02:45:48 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:45:48 -0500
Subject: "Not for nothing..." new meaning?
In-Reply-To: <F116ruzTvztPiFLlNWO00022817@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.214548.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I have lately observed the expression "not for nothing" used at the
>beginning of a personal observation to mean something on the order of: "I
>really don't want to say this but I feel I need to", as in:
>
>"Not for nothing, but I think you've been wound a little tight lately."
>Paulie "Walnuts" to Tony Soprano (Season 3, Episode 13, 20 May 2001).
>
>And some Googled examples:
>
>"Not for nothing, but look who's calling someone a pig." (4 Sept 2002)
>
>"Not for nothing, but you D.C. motherf***ers couldn't keep a secret if
>someone had a gun to your heads." (New York City, 15 March 2002)
>
>"Not-For-Nothing But...If at anytime you don't like what your reading, then
>close your eyes!" (Dudley, Massachusetts, 29 April 2002)
>
>Has anyone observed this new (to me) usage outside of the northeast? And any
>earlier observances of it? I hear it more and more frequently in speech
>originating around New York City, and have only started noticing it in
>print, but it's one of those things that--now I am aware of it--pops up
>everywhere.

I have never heard this and a brief canvass of a few acquaintances here in
Pittsburgh turns up utter blanks.

I find it on the Internet from the early 1990's, mostly in the Northeast at
a glance.

It is utterly opaque to me; I am flummoxed.

It's usually "not for nothing BUT" and in some cases it seems to have a
mild interpretation like "excuse me but", other times stronger like "I hate
to be so rude but".

Is the expression supposed to have a double-negative sense as in "it's not
worth nothing" or is it two negatives make a positive as in "it's not
without value"?

-- Doug Wilson


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Dec 11 04:07:10 2002
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:07:10 -0600
Subject: blacktop/macadam
In-Reply-To: <005d01c2a050$41abc840$a2b89b3f@db>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.220710.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"Tarmac" for me is restricted to airports--never heard it in other contexts.
>_________________________________
>"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
>--Albert Einstein

For some reason, my recollection relates it to the playground.

Barbara


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Wed Dec 11 05:26:04 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 23:26:04 -0600
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.232604.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not that anyone here would claim English spelling makes much sense, but I
figure in this case, it may have something to do with the "ch" at the end of
words in some Northern German dialects sounding like [k], and the
handwritten 'h' ending up looking like a 'k'?  As I say, this is totally a
guess.  There is an awful lot about English spelling that is inconsistent.
And having to rewrite the whole list all week and retake the test for
missing one word, seems rather extreme and actually counterproductive --
IMHO -- for an impressionable six-year-old who could associate misspellings
and busywork with writing forever after, and end up not writing much of
anything unless forced to do so.  What a waste of a potential writer that
would be!  This is coming from the mother of a seven-year-old who hates
writing because it is physically difficult for him, but is as creative (at
least) as his younger sister who loves writing all the time about anything..
-- Millie, the dyslexic insomniac who obsesses nightly over the purported
existence of Dog.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hause" <dwhause at JOBE.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 7:18 PM
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)


> A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed
one
> word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out
the
> spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
> spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
> pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
> research this.
> TIA
> Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
> Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
>


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Dec 11 05:53:12 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:53:12 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <002b01c2a0d5$ccd34030$7001a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <TUE.10.DEC.2002.215312.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Perhaps she was thinking of Nestle Quik(tm).

English spelling has got us all so many, many times. "Quik" seems reasonable
to me--after all, most of us are at least accustomed to "nite".

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:

> Not that anyone here would claim English spelling makes much sense, but I
> figure in this case, it may have something to do with the "ch" at the end of
> words in some Northern German dialects sounding like [k], and the
> handwritten 'h' ending up looking like a 'k'?  As I say, this is totally a
> guess.  There is an awful lot about English spelling that is inconsistent.
> And having to rewrite the whole list all week and retake the test for
> missing one word, seems rather extreme and actually counterproductive --
> IMHO -- for an impressionable six-year-old who could associate misspellings
> and busywork with writing forever after, and end up not writing much of
> anything unless forced to do so.  What a waste of a potential writer that
> would be!  This is coming from the mother of a seven-year-old who hates
> writing because it is physically difficult for him, but is as creative (at
> least) as his younger sister who loves writing all the time about anything..
> -- Millie, the dyslexic insomniac who obsesses nightly over the purported
> existence of Dog.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Hause" <dwhause at JOBE.NET>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 7:18 PM
> Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
>
>
> > A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed
> one
> > word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out
> the
> > spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
> > spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
> > pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
> > research this.
> > TIA
> > Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
> > Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
> >
>


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Dec 11 08:57:48 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 03:57:48 -0500
Subject: is Google reliable?
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.035748.0500.>

R Troike and David B had the following exchange:

>>
>rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU,Net writes:
>        This leaves me wondering how usefully reliable hit statistics on
>Google are sometimes.

My experience leads me to believe that, while googling a word or phrase
can be revealing, Google is among the the least reliable of the many
electronic resources available to linguists.  It did lead me to some
sources for very rare terms, such as _eighteen-wheeler_ for a kind of
enzyme.

Season's greetings to all,
David Barnhart
barnhart at highlands.com
<<

Coming as it does from David, who has, very likely, the most experience of
any of us in trolling databases for lexical stuff, the comment re Google
reliability for lexical research is particularly valuable.

Google is a very lame tool for lexical research compared to, say, a robust,
dynamic corpus of contemporary English.  The Brit Natl Corpus is such a
corpus.  Even though it is now more than 10 years old, and British, it is
still a hugely valuable tool for lexical studies, even for general English.
The newest Oxford dictionaries from the UK were compiled using the BNC as a
main resource, and they are a true revolution in lexicography for that
reason -- IMHO.

Frank Abate


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Wed Dec 11 11:33:44 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:33:44 -0000
Subject: Blue laws
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAMEHODGAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.113344.0000.>

The following appears on a web site devoted to the rebuttal of
hoaxes (www.museumofhoaxes.com/bluelaws.html): "The term 'Blue
Laws' describes laws that regulate public morality. The phrase was
first used in an anonymous pamphlet published in 1762 titled 'The
Real Advantages Which Ministers and People May Enjoy, Especially in
the Colonies, by Conforming to the Church of England'". This - if
correct - predates the usual first citation in the Reverend Samuel
Peters' work of 1782 entitled "A General History of Connecticut".

If true, it might re-open the question of where the "blue" of "blue
laws" came from. I don't have easy access to reference collections
that might confirm or deny the truth of this interesting assertion.
Can anybody assist?

The writer references William L. Kingsley, "The Blue Laws" in "The
New Englander and Yale Review", April 1871, 243-304. There's an
interestingly close association of names here with an earlier
publication, "An Historical Discourse, delivered by Request, before
the Citizens of New Haven, April 25th, 1838, the Two Hundredth
Anniversary of the First Sttlement of the Town and Colony", by
James L. Kingsley. A review of this in the "North American Review"
of October 1838 says, "Professor Kingsley has found, what, perhaps,
will surprise some, that the popular notion of the existence in
Connecticut of a code of sumptuary legislation, commonly spoken of
as the Blue Laws, is utterly without foundation".

Incidentally, a writer in the same journal the following April,
reviewing a book on the blue laws, remarks disdainfully of it that
"The great object of the compiler was, obviously, to make a book
which would sell among a class of readers, with whom matter of fact
is of secondary importance". Nothing changes much, does it?


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Dec 11 12:43:11 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:43:11 -0500
Subject: Kolache (1896)
In-Reply-To: <001d01c2a0a6$d4365120$7001a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.074311.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Indeed. The English is "Cabbage Root" (although this may be a
calque). Kohrabi is, however, widely used in English and is surely a
"borrowed" word (to continue to be technical).

dInIs

>If you want to get technical, Kohlrabi is actually German, not English (not
>"derived from German").
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Steve Kl." <stevekl at PANIX.COM>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:59 PM
>Subject: Re: Re:       Re: Kolache (1896)
>
>
>>  pupek = navel
>>  pupicek = belly-button
>>
>>  We ate kohlrabi, too, but the word's not Czech. The Czech word for
>>  kohlrabi is kedluben. Kohlrabi is English, and it's dervied from German.
>>
>>  -- Steve Kl.
>>

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Dec 11 12:50:56 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:50:56 -0500
Subject: Kolache (1896), but reverting to Kohlrabi
In-Reply-To: <001d01c2a0a6$d4365120$7001a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.075056.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the early 1980's, just up the road from Ann  Arbor, there was
(is?) a Kohlrabi festival (unabashedly German). There were kohlrabi's
dressed up in costumes, a biggest kohlrabi contest, and, my favorite,
an ugliest kohlrabi contest. One bright afternoon my wife and I went,
and I entered the kohrabi tossing contest (distance not accuracy). To
my surprise, I was in the lead for a long time and was promised a
prize (except I had to wait around to see if I was outstripped). Many
polkas, beers, and bowls of fresh kohlrabi slices and dill dip later,
I saw, to my horror, a team of worthies whose physical makeup bespoke
more of years of hard outdoor work than my putrid ex-athletic,
office-bound frame could contest with. Burping and cursing, we went
home empty-handed, and I have since eschewed the vegetable, in spite
of fond memories of it from my childhood, when my Hungarian
grandfather would slice fresh chunks of it for me from his garden.

dInIs

PS: Kohlrabi was also borrowed into Hungarian as the word for this
delicacy, at least the Hungarian I learned as a child.

>If you want to get technical, Kohlrabi is actually German, not English (not
>"derived from German").
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Steve Kl." <stevekl at PANIX.COM>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 1:59 PM
>Subject: Re: Re:       Re: Kolache (1896)
>
>
>>  pupek = navel
>>  pupicek = belly-button
>>
>>  We ate kohlrabi, too, but the word's not Czech. The Czech word for
>>  kohlrabi is kedluben. Kohlrabi is English, and it's dervied from German.
>>
>>  -- Steve Kl.
>>

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Wed Dec 11 12:54:03 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:54:03 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <044301c2a0b3$49381ec0$cebf22d0@dwhause>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.075403.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6 she is probably ready for the horrible revelation that
grapheme-phoneme correspondence in English is not perfect (just tell
her that for now). When she is 8, you can begin the historical
lectures (about where the "c" came from, where all those "wh"s came
from, etc...).

dInIs

>A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed one
>word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out the
>spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
>spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
>pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
>research this.
>TIA
>Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
>Ft. Leonard Wood, MO

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Dec 11 12:13:57 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:13:57 -0500
Subject: is Google reliable?
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.071357.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET,Net writes:

>Google is a very lame tool for lexical research compared to, say, a
>robust,
>dynamic corpus of contemporary English.

While I have not a very high opinion of a "straight" google search, it
is made more useful for general linguistic research in news media by
using "Google News."  This resource is described in their own words:
Google News presents information culled from approximately 4,000 news
sources worldwide and automatically arranged to present the most
relevant news first. Topics are updated continuously throughout the
day, so you will see new stories each time you check the page. Google
has developed an automated grouping process for Google News that pulls
together related headlines and photos from thousands of sources
worldwide -- enabling you to see how different news organizations are
reporting the same story. You pick the item that interests you, then go
directly to the site which published the account you wish to read.
The address of the site is http://news.google.com/
There are several ways to examine the record of English usage.   Most
of these ways warrant justification for particular lexicographic
projects depending upon their scope and objective.  When vigorously
examining new words it is important to have as wide a range of
publications as is practicable to handle.   Such sources, especially on
the Web, are frequently changing their base of observation.  A stable
data base, such as a static corpus, can make statistical observations
more accurately.  My father's scheme for many years relied upon a
stable inventory of publications that allowed for the reliable
estimation of language growth year by year.  His approach was described
on several occasions.  On the subject in "Methods and Standards for
Collecting Citations for English Dictionaries" in Proceedings of the
Fourth International Congress of Applied Linguistics (Stuttgart, 1977,
p 278): "Most excerpting of citations is now done by various dictionary
publishers to bring up to date existing file so that new dictionaries
now in existence can be kept up to date.  Such reading is done in
newspapers of record, news magazines, and various magazines of literary
or scientific importance."  He then lists the publications used in
updating the World Book Dictionary (when it was under his editorial
direction).  He continues: "All of these newspapers and magazines are
circulated largely among educated speakers of English.  It would be
interesting to calculate the total readership of these newspapers and
magazines in relation to the total number of speakers of English in
order to determine in some fashion the extent of our sampling.  It
would be interesting also to calculate the extent of overlapping of the
new vocabulary that comes into the English language in each section of
the reading..."
Regards,
David Barnhart
barnhart at highlands.com


From THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU  Wed Dec 11 14:48:21 2002
From: THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:48:21 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.094821.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The "ck" spelling in English words is actually the indirect descendant of
vowel lengthening in open syllables between Old and Middle English.  Vowel
lengthening in words like "bake" (Old English "bacan" with a short a) was
blocked in syllables that ended in two consonants.  In fact, original long
vowels were shortened in closed syllables, yielding pairs like "five" and
"fifty."

When long consonants ceased to be pronounced, the double-letter spelling
eventually became a sign of a preceding short vowel in words like "hidden."
c had been used in Old English for the affricate in "edge" (Old English
"ecg"), as well as the long cc in Middle English "cuccu," "cuckoo."

ck becomes the spelling of what was originally long [k:].  Once it becomes
the sign of a preceding short vowel, it is apt to show up it words like
"quick," which does not seem to have had a long consonant at all (Old
English "cwicu") but which somehow escaped open syllable lengthening.
Perhaps there is something here that escapes me, but my resources now are
limited.

Middle English spelling was reasonable and generally phonetic, but wildly
inconsistent.  Anyone using an authentic text for Chaucer has noticed that
he seems never to spell the same word the same way twice.  Modern English
settled onto spelling the same morpheme the same way no matter how it was
pronounced, so that we have pairs like "sane" and "sanity" (with an
inconsistency even here with "vain" and "vanity").

The spellings mentioned above apply to English words, of course, and one
must take into account the fact that about half the vocabulary of English is
French.  The "i before e except after c" rule is a rule which works very
well for French words like "receive" and "relieve," but not at all well for
English words like "neighbor" and "weigh."

The sources for research on English spelling tend to be scattered, but a
place to start is a history of the language.  I took a look at an old
edition of the Pyles/Algeo History of the English Language.

Sorry for such a long post.

Thom Harrison


-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis R. Preston [mailto:preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU]
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 7:54 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: English spelling origin (OT?)


At 6 she is probably ready for the horrible revelation that
grapheme-phoneme correspondence in English is not perfect (just tell
her that for now). When she is 8, you can begin the historical
lectures (about where the "c" came from, where all those "wh"s came
from, etc...).

dInIs

>A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed
one
>word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out the
>spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
>spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
>pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
>research this.
>TIA
>Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
>Ft. Leonard Wood, MO

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Dec 11 14:54:08 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:54:08 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <044301c2a0b3$49381ec0$cebf22d0@dwhause>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.095408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Dave Hause wrote:

#A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed one
#word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out the
#spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
#spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
#pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
#research this.

The poor kid was probably corrupted by Nestle's brand of chocolate drink
powder.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Wed Dec 11 15:06:25 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:06:25 EST
Subject: OT: Louisiana Christmas
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.100625.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Very OT, but some of our regular contributors may like it.

>Day 1:
>Dear Boudreaux, Thanks for de bird in de Pear tree. I fix it las' night
>with dirty rice. I doan tink de pear tree will grow wid all da heat in the
>summa.
>Marie
>
>Day 2:
>Dear Boudreaux, You letter say you sent two turtle doves, but all I got was
>two scrawny pigeons. Anyway, I mixed dem with andouille an made some gumbo
>out of dem.
>Marie
>
>Day 3:
>Dear Boudreaux, Why couldn't you a sent me Crawfish? I'm tired of eating
>dem darn birds. I gave two of dose prissy French chickens to Marie Trahan
>over at Grans Bayou an fed the tird one to my dog Phideaux. Marie needed
>some sparring partners for her fighting rooster.
>Marie
>
>Day 4:
>Dear Boudreau, Mon Dieux! I tol you no more xxxxx birds. Deez four, what
>you call dem "calling birds" were so noisy you could hear dem all de way to
>Napoleonville. I used dere necks for my crab traps, an fed de rest of dem
>to de gators.
>Marie
>
>Day 5:
>Dear Boudreaux, You finally sen' somethin useful. I like dem golden rings,
>me. I hocked dem at da pawn shop in Thibodeaux and got enuf money to fix da
>shaft on my shrimp boat an buy a round for da boys at de Raisin' Cane
>Lounge. Merci Beaucoup!
>Marie
>
>Day 6:
>Dear Boudreaux, Couchon! Back to da birds, you Cajun turkey! Poor egg
>suckin' Phideaux is scared to death at dem six geeses. He tried to eat dems
>eggs and dey peck de heck out ah his snout. Dey good at eating cockroaches,
>though. I may stuff one of dem wit oyster dressing on Christmas day.
>Marie
>
>Day 7:
>Dear Boudreaux, I'm gonna wring your fool neck next time I see you.
>Thibeau, da mailman, is ready to kill ya. The merde from all dem birds is
>stinkin' up his mailboat. He afraid someone will slip on dat stuff and sue
>him good. I let those seven swans loose to swim on de bayou and some duck
>hunters from Mississippi blasted dem out of de water. Talk to you tomorrow.
>Marie
>
>Day 8:
>Dear Boudreaux, poor ole Thibeau, he had to make tree trips on his mailboat
>to deliver dem 8 maids a milkin and their cows. One of dem cows got spooked
>by da alligators and almost tipped over da boat. I doan like dem shiftless
>maids, me no. I tolt dem to get to work guttin fish and sweepin the shack
>but dey say it wasn't in dair contract. Dey probably think dey too good ta
>skin nutrias I caught las night.
>Marie
>
>Day 9:
>Dear Boudreaux, What you trying to do huh? Thibeau had to borrow the
>Lutcher ferry to carry dem jumpin twits you call Lords-a-Leaping across the
>bayou. As soon as dey gots here dey wanted a tea break with crumpets. I
>doan know what dat means but I says, "Well La Di Da. You get Chicory coffee
>or nuttin." Mon Dieu, Emile. What I'm gonna feed all dese bozos? Dey too
>snooty for fried nutria, and de cows done eat my turnip greens.
>Marie
>
>Day 10:
>Dear Boudreaux, You got to be outs you mind! If de mailman don't kill you,
>I will fo sure. Today he deliver 10 half nikid floozies from Bourbon
>Street. Dey said dey be "Ladies Dancin" but dey doan act like ladies in
>front of dose Limey twits. Dey almos left after one of dem got bit by a
>water moccasin over by da out-house. I had to butcher 2 cows to feed toute
>le monde an had to get toilet paper; the Sears catalog wasn't good enuf fer
>dose hoity toity Lords' royal behin'.
>Marie
>
>Day 11:
>Dear Boudreaux, where y'at? Cheerio an pip pip. Your 11 pipers piping
>arrives today from the House of Blues, second lining as dey got off de
>boat. We fixed stuffed goose and beef jambalaya and we having a fais-do-do.
>Da new mailman he having a good time, yeah, dancing with de floozies.
>Thibeau he jump off de Sunshine Bridge yesterday, screaming your name. If
>you get a mysterious, ticking package in de mail, doan open it.
>Marie
>
>Day 12:
>Dear Boudreaux, I sorry to tell ya but I not your true love anymore, no.
>After da fais-do-do, I spent de night with Jacque, de head piper. We decide
>to open a restaurant and gentleman's club on de bayou. The floozies, pardon
>me, Ladies dancing can make $20 for a table dance, and de Lords can be
>waiters an valet park de boats. Since de maids doan have no more cows ta
>milk, I trained dem ta set my crab traps, watch my trotlines, an run my
>shrimping business. We will probably gross a million nex year.
>Marie


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Wed Dec 11 15:14:58 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:14:58 -0500
Subject: Kolache (1896)
In-Reply-To: <001d01c2a0a6$d4365120$7001a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.101458.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:

> If you want to get technical, Kohlrabi is actually German, not English (not
> "derived from German").

It's listed in AHD, RHC, MW10, WNW; it's an English word now, too, not
unlike sauerkraut.

-- Steve


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Wed Dec 11 15:18:48 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:18:48 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <D6166D55BA96D511BEDE00105A1901320158722B@mail.maconstate.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.101848.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Thom Harrison wrote:

#Middle English spelling was reasonable and generally phonetic, but wildly
#inconsistent.  Anyone using an authentic text for Chaucer has noticed that
#he seems never to spell the same word the same way twice.

I think Chaucer and his contemporaries must have had a very different
*concept* than ours of the nature of spelling. To us, it's a combination
of rules with some generality ("b" is almost always [b], "th" either
theta or edh), arbitrary items to be learned by rote ("siege" and
"seize"), and things in between. To them, I suspect it was a set of
rules of thumb for producing a graph that would point the reader to the
word the writer had in mind.

#The spellings mentioned above apply to English words, of course, and one
#must take into account the fact that about half the vocabulary of English is
#French.  The "i before e except after c" rule is a rule which works very
#well for French words like "receive" and "relieve," but not at all well for
#English words like "neighbor" and "weigh."

I've heard a second line (or 3rd and 4th):
        or when pronounced [ei]
        as in "neighbor" and "weigh"

But that doesn't cover "height" or "sleight". ISTM that this exception
is more accurately (though less mnemonically) stated as
        or when followed by silent "gh"


-- Mark A. Mandel


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Wed Dec 11 15:28:26 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:28:26 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212111012440.77562104-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.102826.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote:

> But that doesn't cover "height" or "sleight". ISTM that this exception
> is more accurately (though less mnemonically) stated as
>         or when followed by silent "gh"

And there's always weird exceptions.

-- Steve


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Dec 11 15:45:17 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:45:17 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <D6166D55BA96D511BEDE00105A1901320158722B@mail.maconstate.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.104517.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thom Harrison writes:
>
>The spellings mentioned above apply to English words, of course, and one
>must take into account the fact that about half the vocabulary of English is
>French.  The "i before e except after c" rule is a rule which works very
>well for French words like "receive" and "relieve," but not at all well for
>English words like "neighbor" and "weigh."
>
The version I remember from grade school goes

I before E
Except after C,
Or when sounded as A*
As in "neighbor" and "weigh"

This one has fewer exceptions, one of which is "weird", which was
explained by the fact that, after all, it is weird.

Larry

*Long "a", of course


From THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU  Wed Dec 11 16:01:37 2002
From: THarriso at MAIL.MACONSTATE.EDU (Thom Harrison)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:01:37 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.110137.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

None of this accounts, either, for spellings like those of "debt" and
"accommodate," which were modified to make them look more like their Latin
originals.

Thom


-----Original Message-----
From: Laurence Horn [mailto:laurence.horn at YALE.EDU]
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:45 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: English spelling origin (OT?)


Thom Harrison writes:
>
>The spellings mentioned above apply to English words, of course, and one
>must take into account the fact that about half the vocabulary of English
is
>French.  The "i before e except after c" rule is a rule which works very
>well for French words like "receive" and "relieve," but not at all well for
>English words like "neighbor" and "weigh."
>
The version I remember from grade school goes

I before E
Except after C,
Or when sounded as A*
As in "neighbor" and "weigh"

This one has fewer exceptions, one of which is "weird", which was
explained by the fact that, after all, it is weird.

Larry

*Long "a", of course


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Dec 11 16:57:15 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:57:15 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.50.0212111028050.27460-100000@panix1.panix.com>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.085715.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In these days of tension in the Middle East, it's good to remember that

neither leisure sheik seized the weird foreign height.

PR

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Steve Kl. wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote:
>
> > But that doesn't cover "height" or "sleight". ISTM that this exception
> > is more accurately (though less mnemonically) stated as
> >         or when followed by silent "gh"
>
> And there's always weird exceptions.
>
> -- Steve
>


From redvelvetmmm at HOTMAIL.COM  Wed Dec 11 16:51:30 2002
From: redvelvetmmm at HOTMAIL.COM (deidra bowling)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:51:30 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.115130.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20021211/0c57b90b/attachment.htm>

From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Dec 11 17:14:15 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 09:14:15 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <p04320402ba1d0d343fd9@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.091415.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:45 AM -0500 Laurence Horn
<laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:

> The version I remember from grade school goes
>
> I before E
> Except after C,
> Or when sounded as A*
> As in "neighbor" and "weigh"
>

Here's the rest:

But their, weird and either,
Foreign, seize and neither,
Leisure, forfeit and height
Are exceptions spelled right.

Peter Mc.


****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Wed Dec 11 17:51:44 2002
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:51:44 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <F59C2pKFRyqwdpOTziw00027964@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.125144.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I assume you meant "washcloths" for the plural? vs. wash[kloz]?

At 11:51 AM 12/11/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>I am from Ashland, Ky.  I just wanted to share this little story that
>happened at my house a few months ago.  My friend spent the night at my
>house and asked, "Can I have a warsh rag?"  My sister, who is eleven said
>"Oh Tracy you don't have to use a rag.  We have washclothes."  She had no
>idea what my friend was talking about.  I found it odd that she didn't
>understand that she meant washcloth because I have heard it said before by
>my grandma and other older people.  My parents laughed about the whole
>story and were trying to explain to my sister that it is common for some
>people to say this.
>
>
>----------
>Help STOP SPAM with <http://g.msn.com/8HMTEN/2016>the new MSN 8 and get 2
>months FREE*


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Dec 11 20:30:34 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:30:34 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Linguists' Federation
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.153034.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

D?but du message r?exp?di? :

> De: Arnaud Febvre <afebvre at pt.lu>
> Date: Wed 11 Dec 2002  15:14:46 America/New_York
> ?: "info at clubpolyglotte.com" <info at clubpolyglotte.com>
> Objet: Linguists' Federation
> R?pondre ?: arnaud.febvre at thaon.com
>
> Hi,
>
> You are receiving this e-mail as your e-mail was on a website related
> to
> languages.
>
> My name is Arnaud Febvre, I am writing on behalf of the Linguists'
> Federation. The Federation was founded in Europe in June 1937 by "Union
> Polyglotte", the Linguists'Club, and the "Weltclub". The Linguists'
> Federation aims at promoting a better knowledge of languages by
> organising meeting to practise languages. It is also seeking to help
> with the promotion of existing circles and clubs in Europe and with the
> setting up of new associations worldwide.
>
> We currently are fourteen clubs and circles covering Belgium, France,
> Germany, Ireland, Luxembourg and the U.K. and we are looking at ways of
> partnership with any organisation (whether it is a club, a circle or
> whatever name) in different continents. Just like we have spontaneously
> started social language clubs in Europe, we believe there must be
> similar organisations worldwide and we would like to suggest a
> "virtual"
> partnership. We believe it might be of interests to know that clubs or
> associations exist on different part of the globe.
>
> Basically our clubs meet on average once a week and gather on average
> 50
> to 60 people depending on the evening, people have a drink. More info
> is
> available from our gateway and partner website
>
> We can provide links from our homepage at this URL:
> www.linguistsfederation.com for free and without any commitment as long
> as people aim at promoting the practise of languages, that you are
> non-political and non profit making organisations.
>
> Please feel free to forward this e-mail to whoever has similar goals.
>
> Thanks in anticipation,
>
> Arnaud Febvre for the Linguists' Federation and Linguists' Club
> Luxembourg.
>


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Dec 11 20:30:41 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:30:41 -0500
Subject: Max Hunter Folk Song Collection
In-Reply-To: <F59C2pKFRyqwdpOTziw00027964@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.153041.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I searched the archives and didn't see this mentioned before. Don't ask how
my search went from:

the correct past tense for dive
to Longfellow's "The Song of Hiawatha"
to Johnny Preston's "Running Bear"
to an audio database of folk songs sung by people from Missouri, Arkansas
and Oklahoma,

but ya'll know how the Web sometimes works. Anyway, for anybody who was
unaware this was on-line and would like to have a listen:

http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/maxhunter/Singer.html

My apologies if this is repetitive.



Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Dec 11 21:07:52 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:07:52 -0800
Subject: Max Hunter Folk Song Collection
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021211152223.00b3fb88@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.130752.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oboy. I can hardly wait for the Safire column on "Running Bear." I'm eager
to hear whether anyone's diven into Gitchee Goomee (sp?) recently.

PR

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:

> I searched the archives and didn't see this mentioned before. Don't ask how
> my search went from:
>
> the correct past tense for dive
> to Longfellow's "The Song of Hiawatha"
> to Johnny Preston's "Running Bear"
> to an audio database of folk songs sung by people from Missouri, Arkansas
> and Oklahoma,
>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Dec 11 22:45:56 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:45:56 -0500
Subject: Max Hunter Folk Song Collection
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021211152223.00b3fb88@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.174556.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There ain't no "correct" past tense for 'dive'!  Pass that on to your boss.

At 03:30 PM 12/11/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>I searched the archives and didn't see this mentioned before. Don't ask how
>my search went from:
>
>the correct past tense for dive
>to Longfellow's "The Song of Hiawatha"
>to Johnny Preston's "Running Bear"
>to an audio database of folk songs sung by people from Missouri, Arkansas
>and Oklahoma,
>
>but ya'll know how the Web sometimes works. Anyway, for anybody who was
>unaware this was on-line and would like to have a listen:
>
>http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/maxhunter/Singer.html
>
>My apologies if this is repetitive.
>
>
>
>Kathleen E. Miller
>Research Assistant to William Safire
>The New York Times


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Dec 11 22:48:03 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 17:48:03 -0500
Subject: Max Hunter Folk Song Collection
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021211130537.15468R-100000@calvin.linfield. edu>
Message-ID: <WED.11.DEC.2002.174803.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If you dove/dived into it now, you'd be mighty cold.

At 01:07 PM 12/11/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Oboy. I can hardly wait for the Safire column on "Running Bear." I'm eager
>to hear whether anyone's diven into Gitchee Goomee (sp?) recently.
>
>PR
>
>On Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:
>
> > I searched the archives and didn't see this mentioned before. Don't ask how
> > my search went from:
> >
> > the correct past tense for dive
> > to Longfellow's "The Song of Hiawatha"
> > to Johnny Preston's "Running Bear"
> > to an audio database of folk songs sung by people from Missouri, Arkansas
> > and Oklahoma,
> >


From candi_cool at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 12 05:19:47 2002
From: candi_cool at HOTMAIL.COM (Candace Cool)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:19:47 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.001947.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am going to be teaching soon and I have a very large fear of how I will
sound to my class with my kentucky accent.  Especially if I leave the state.



<html><DIV><FONT face="Lucida Handwriting, Cursive"><FONT
color=#993366>Candi&nbsp;&nbsp; Cool&nbsp; </FONT><IMG height=12
src="http://graphics.hotmail.com/emsmilep.gif" width=12></FONT></DIV></html>





>From: Millie Webb <millie-webb at CHARTER.NET>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:48:49 -0600
>
>As I said, this was the vague impression of Mid-Landers, who had probably
>never even been "out there".  And a lot of Washingtonians and Oregonians
>for
>a while there, seemed to be transplants from California, and thus, the
>perceived spread of the "surfer-like" speech.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "FRITZ JUENGLING" <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 3:18 PM
>Subject: Re: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
>
>
> > Wow! Amazing how distorted things can be! I think Curt and his band,
>Nirvana, were from Seattle, the alleged home of grunge, which is what I
>think you are describing. As far as sounding like surfers--I don't think
>so.
>I can't imagine anyone trying to sound like a surfer here. That's just a
>different culture.  (Also, the water's too cold to be into surfing, unless
>you have a thick wet suit).  I guess we Oregonians are just 'out there'
>(i.e. West) and are largely unknown.  That's just fine.
> > Fritz
> >
> >


_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Dec 12 12:36:57 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:36:57 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <F236p23dUSTRkulYj5b00016801@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.073657.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Candace,

I am from Louisville, and I have taught and studied my entire
professional life at Wisconsin, Ohio State, SUNY, and now Michigan
State. I have an enormous set of put-downs, one-liners, quick
come-backs, and even detailed arguments (the last the least
effective) to use against NLBs (Northern Language Bigots). Stay in
touch if you need me.

dInIs




I am going to be teaching soon and I have a very large fear of how I will
sound to my class with my kentucky accent.  Especially if I leave the state.

Candace Cool


--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From sbmorr01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Thu Dec 12 12:35:18 2002
From: sbmorr01 at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Stephani Hardin)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:35:18 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.073518.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OH Please!!   I think we all know Deidra meant "washcloths".  I hope we have
more to do with our time than to come in here and check for mistakes in
spelling and grammar.  If we could refrain from being 'know it alls' more
people would feel comfortable responding to messages on-line, and we would not
be missing out on their input.  Put that in your pip and smoke it (I misspelled
pipe just for you Beverly).

Deidra makes a good point.  I think it's interesting that the phrase "warsh
rag" was alien to her sister.  Especially considering the fact that she lives
in Kentucky, where it is pretty common.


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Thu Dec 12 12:58:13 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:58:13 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <1039696518.3df88286dbbb7@ldap.morehead-st.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.075813.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Stephani,

I think Beverly is neither a prescriptivist nor a nit-picker (unless
I have completely misjudged her character). She may have actually had
some phonology in mind (the vowel of "cloth"?), not trivial spelling
stuff, which I am sure we all give less than a hoot about, except
when spelling "errors" reflect dialect variants.

I am a Kentuckian (well, Louisvillian) and find "washrag" (actually
"warshrag") very common. On the other hand, "warshcloth" seems quite
good to me too, but I'm taking bets it came later in my linguistic
development.

BUT - I cannot say "dishcloth." It's not English. "Dishrag" is it.

Back to the point. Since this was a "little sister," we may simply be
witnessing the death of "-rag" and the victory of "-cloth." The
mainstream pejorative senses of "rag" could have a lot to do with
this (as the late Harold Allen argued in AS long ago about
participial "drunk" being replaced by "drank," a process which he
claimed was at least in part due to contamination by inebriated sense
of "drunk").

dInIs

PS: Isn't there some Transatlantic word like "flannel" for this? Has
that held its ground?

PPS: Some people on this list have questioned my authority when I
make such pronouncements as "It's not English."

1) I am the President (until January) of the American Dialect Society.

2) If that's not enough, I recently did an acoustic (LPC) analysis of
my vowel system. Every one of my steady state F1-F2 readings lies
exactly on top of the male formant values given in Peterson and
Barney (1952). (OK, I didn't look at any /E/s before nasals, and I
didn't check the glides of diphthongs.)



>OH Please!!   I think we all know Deidra meant "washcloths".  I hope we have
>more to do with our time than to come in here and check for mistakes in
>spelling and grammar.  If we could refrain from being 'know it alls' more
>people would feel comfortable responding to messages on-line, and we would not
>be missing out on their input.  Put that in your pip and smoke it (I
>misspelled
>pipe just for you Beverly).
>
>Deidra makes a good point.  I think it's interesting that the phrase "warsh
>rag" was alien to her sister.  Especially considering the fact that she lives
>in Kentucky, where it is pretty common.

Stephani Hardin
--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 12 13:38:58 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:38:58 EST
Subject: Thai Food (1970, 1971,
 1978); Maltese Sauce (1959); Gado Gado (1969)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.083858.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   It was raining out, so I spent a quiet night (after work) in the Popik
archives, brousing through the GOURMET index.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
THAI FOOD

   "Mee Krob" or "Mi Krob" each has over 1,000 Google hits.  Neither spelling
is in the revised OED(?).  THE OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD, pg. 791, "SOME THAI
FOOD TERMS," explains that "_mee krob_ are wheat noodles deep-fried and
coated in sugar syrup as a savoury dish."  WEBSTER'S NEW WORLD DICTIONARY OF
CULINARY ARTS has:

_mee krob_ (mee krob)  A Thai dish of deep-fried rice sticks, green onions,
red bell peppers, chives, tofu, cilantro and a sweet-and-sour sauce.

    OK, maybe _I _should treat an OED editor to "Pad Thai."  I'll explain
this dish that everyone else has heard of.  For background music, I'll bring
along my tape of "klezmer"...


August 1970, GOURMET magazine
Fish, Sweet-and-Sour, Thai...66
Shrimps in Fruit Sauce Baan Thai...66
Chicken
   Broiled, Thai (Gai Yang)...66
   Curry (Gang Ped Gai)...66
Pork Curry, Hot (gang Ped)...66
Banana Fritters, Thai...66
Coconut Milk...66
Fried Rice, Thai (Khao Pad)...65
Thai Lemon Soup (Gang Tom Yam)...65

December 1971, GOURMET
Fish, Thai-style (Cian)...78
Beef Curry (Kaeng Phed Nua)...76
Chicken Curry (Kaeng Phed Kai)...76
Noodles Fried with Meat and Shellfish (Mi Krob)...78
Mango Salad, Thai...78

October 1978, GOURMET
Chicken with Holy Basil (Gai Pad Bai Krapao)...110
Pork with Garlic and Pepper (Moo Tod Kratium Priktai)...110
Coconut Milk, Thai..110
Red Curry Paste (Nam Prik Gaeng Ped)...110
Shrimp Soup, Aromatic (Tom Yam Kung)...108
Beef Salad, Spicy (Laab)...208
Noodle, Fried, Salad (Mee Krob)...109
Squid Salad (Yam Pla Muk)...108

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
POSOLE/POZOLE (continued)

   Not in the new volume of DARE P-SK, not in John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF
AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK, and not in OED.  Amazing.
   I was looking through GOURMET for about fifteen years, from the 1960s.

December 1978, GOURMET
Hominy with Beef and Pork (New Mexican Posole)...88

November 1981, GOURMET
Hominy with Pork and Chili Peppers (Pozole Posada Santa Fe)...146

September 1985
Posole  (Page number cut off--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MALTESE SAUCE

   Not in the revised OED.  "Maltese sauce" is hollandaise sauce with some
orange added.
   This was in GOURMET almost every year, each March!  I probably missed
some:

October 1959  (Hollandaise Variations: Maltaise), May 1966, December 1968,
March 1970, March 1971, March 1972, March 1973, March 1976, March 1977, March
1978, March 1980, March 1981, March 1982

December 1975, GOURMET
Meat and Macaroni Pie, Maltese (Timpana)...67
Dolphinfish Pie, Maltese (Lampuki Pie)...62
Rice with Calves' Brains, Maltese, Baked...67
Vegetable Soup with Eggs, Maltese (Widow's Soup)...62

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
GADO GADO

   Not in OED.  I might as well get to Indonesia on this post.

August 1969, GOURMET
Vegetables, Mixed, with Peanut Sauce (Gado-Gado)...48

December 1982, GOURMET
Bean-Curd and Vegetable Salad (Gado-Gado Jakarta Mandarin)...198


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Dec 12 14:10:30 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:10:30 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <206797.1039598055@[10.218.201.115]>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.061030.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So where does "science" fit?


--- "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
> --On Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:45 AM -0500
> Laurence Horn
> <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>
> > The version I remember from grade school goes
> >
> > I before E
> > Except after C,
> > Or when sounded as A*
> > As in "neighbor" and "weigh"
> >
>
> Here's the rest:
>
> But their, weird and either,
> Foreign, seize and neither,
> Leisure, forfeit and height
> Are exceptions spelled right.
>
> Peter Mc.
>
>
>
****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *
> McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Dec 12 13:10:32 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:10:32 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.081032.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU,Net writes:

>I am a Kentuckian (well, Louisvillian) and find "washrag" (actually
>"warshrag") very common. On the other hand, "warshcloth" seems quite
>good to me too, but I'm taking bets it came later in my linguistic
>development.

>BUT - I cannot say "dishcloth." It's not English. "Dishrag" is it.

While I cannot say these are my preferences, they were so for my father
(born in Missouri with some probable connections to Kentucky, and
raised in Kansas.  I know both of these terms from my father's speech
but prefer dishcloth to dishrag and washcloth the washrag.  Sometimes I
do catch myself using the -rag form as a variant.  I was born in
Chicago (my mother came from southwestern Wisconsin.

Phonologically, I am Chicagoan with some NY suburb influences.  My
father regularly used "worsh".

Regards,
David Barnhart


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Dec 12 13:19:59 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:19:59 -0500
Subject: Gado Gado (1969)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.081959.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Bapopik at AOL.COM,Net writes:
>GADO GADO

>   Not in OED.  I might as well get to Indonesia on this post.

>August 1969, GOURMET
>Vegetables, Mixed, with Peanut Sauce (Gado-Gado)...48

>December 1982, GOURMET
>Bean-Curd and Vegetable Salad (Gado-Gado Jakarta Mandarin)...198

Gado-gado appears in the Barnhart Dictionary Companion (Vol. 3, 2-3,
c.1984).  The earliest date then was 1977.  Thanks to you Barry for the
1969 quote.

Gado-gado also appears in Macquarie and the Longman Register of New
Words.  (See the Barnhart New-Words Concordance, p 142).

Regards,
David Barnhart


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Thu Dec 12 14:38:17 2002
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:38:17 -0800
Subject: Exposure to language
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.063817.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David:

> While I cannot say these are my preferences, they were so for my father
> (born in Missouri with some probable connections to Kentucky, and
> raised in Kansas.  I know both of these terms from my father's speech
> but prefer dishcloth to dishrag and washcloth the washrag.  Sometimes I
> do catch myself using the -rag form as a variant.  I was born in
> Chicago (my mother came from southwestern Wisconsin.
>
> Phonologically, I am Chicagoan with some NY suburb influences.  My
> father regularly used "worsh".

INteresting. "Washcloth" is "it" in the Pacific NW, AFAIK, and yes, I've
actually heard "worsh" around here.  There are a lot of "incomers"
influencing things around here, though, naturally.
Anne G


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 12 15:24:21 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:24:21 EST
Subject: All-Candy Diet
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.102421.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   (Just a minute, let me put down the Ben & Jerry's.  One day, I've got to
sue those guys.)
   A stupid article appeared in an October 2002 NEW YORK POST about an "all
candy diet."  A few crazy New York City women skip meals by eating sugar
instead.
   (Just a minute.  It looks like I've run out of Haagen Daz in the freezer.
This is a tragedy.  Back to the post.)
   Nutritionists are aghast, but dentists just love the diet.  I thought the
whole thing was pretty stupid, and thought no more of it.  Then my January
2003 WIRED magazine arrived this week.  (A New Jersey Nets player is on the
cover of WIRED.  The Nets usually can't get on the cover of BASKETBALL
magazines.  We must be near the apocalypse.  I digress, but I'm short of
chocolate.)
   Pg. 48:

WIRED            TIRED              EXPIRED
all-candy diet   all-protein diet   cabbage-coup diet

   Here's a Googled article that was published last month in PITT NEWS.  A
bad newspaper publishes a dumb article about a few people and it's a _new
trend_:


The sweet taste of the all-candy diet
Pourquoi?
by LESLIE HOFFMAN
November 01, 2002

What if you could eat Necco wafers for breakfast, Swedish fish for lunch and
Reese's peanut butter cups for dinner and still lose weight? This isn't a
solution to finishing off a giant bag of Halloween candy in one day, it's a
new trend. It turns out many young women are now resorting to a new method of
weight loss, "The All-Candy Diet," to shed pounds and fulfill their cravings.
In a recent article featured on Anythingbut.com, a reporter interviewed many
professional young women in New York City who have to maintain their weight
and find it easiest to do through primarily eating or supplementing their
diets with sugary delights. We're not talking about women who sneak a Hershey
bar to satisfy a late afternoon sugar low, but women who obtain most of their
calories from candy: gummy bears, Sugar Daddies and Jelly Bellies. One photo
editor in her thirties admitted a special craving for chewy Spree candy. "If
I'm eating something before dinner," she said, "I'll go for candy. And then
you've eaten so much candy that you're not even hungry!" Of course you're not
hungry - you've done just what your mother always warned you about: you've
spoiled your dinner. While the idea of chowing down on Cherry Clan candies
and Lemonheads may seem appetizing, it of course is not as tasty as it seems.
Serious health complications arise in adults who malnourish themselves by
eating too much candy. In addition to the health problems you'd expect such
as cavities, adults who eat too much sugar position themselves to be prime
candidates for diabetes. These women - young professionals - all know the
health risks associated with just eating candy, but they do it anyway. It's
not surprising to learn that it's young people who are resorting to this
diet. Candy has a cheerful, colorful image that is associated with youth and
innocence - ever wonder why parents just let their kids eat as much candy as
they want on Halloween night? And as a child, didn't you ever wonder why your
parents didn't eat as much candy as you did? The Food Network recently
presented a special about the candy business; candy companies rely heavily on
informal taste tests presented to children. Considering this country's
consumer lifestyle, it shouldn't be all that surprising that we have young
people eating up Jelly Bellies like they're going out of style. It's simply
indicative of our capacity for overindulgence. Maybe the dangerous aspect of
this particular diet isn't that it's "All-Candy," but that it relies on only
one indulgence - if my diet consisted only of steak, I'd probably lose weight
just because my body was lacking other important nutrients. The issue here is
balance, both nutritional and cultural. Our cultural excesses are manifested
in our personal lives. What if they start to kill us? Eating a grab bag of
sugary confections for breakfast, lunch and dinner may be appealing, but it
will never be a proper substitute for a well-balanced meal?

(OF COURSE IT'S A BALANCED DIET!  THEY EAT "BEANS" AND "BEARS"!!!!--ed.)


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec 12 16:12:35 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:12:35 -0800
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <F236p23dUSTRkulYj5b00016801@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.081235.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You'll sound as if you belong. Just enjoy the ride, work hard, and treat
them like human beings whose version of  English is nothing to be ashamed
of. Good luck!

PR

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Candace Cool wrote:

> I am going to be teaching soon and I have a very large fear of how I will
> sound to my class with my kentucky accent.  Especially if I leave the state.


From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM  Thu Dec 12 16:22:28 2002
From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:22:28 -0500
Subject: Pronunciation of "googol"
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.112228.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is there a standard pronunciation of the word "googol"? I've seen and heard
GOO.gawl, goo.GAWL, and GOO.gul.

Thanks.

Paul
http://www.wordspy.com/


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec 12 16:23:14 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:23:14 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <20021212141030.81697.qmail@web9708.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.082314.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, James Smith wrote:

> So where does "science" fit?

You mean it's not "sceince"?


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Dec 12 15:34:07 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:34:07 -0500
Subject: Pronunciation of "googol"
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.103407.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

All the people I hear say "GOO guhl" -- that's with a schwa in the
second syllable.

Regards,
David Barnhart


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Thu Dec 12 17:12:14 2002
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:12:14 -0800
Subject: Pronunciation of "googol"
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.091214.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Paul:

> Is there a standard pronunciation of the word "googol"? I've seen and
heard
> GOO.gawl, goo.GAWL, and GOO.gul.

I don't know if this is "standard", but I always thought it was "GOO gul".
Anne G


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 12 17:20:03 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:20:03 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Kolache=20(1896)?=
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.122003.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/11/02 10:15:05 AM, stevekl at PANIX.COM writes:


> > If you want to get technical, Kohlrabi is actually German, not English
> (not
> > "derived from German").
>
I suppose that the old Czech people I knew in my childhood thought of this as
a Czech word, in which case it would have been "derivbed from German" for
them.


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Thu Dec 12 17:20:44 2002
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:20:44 -0800
Subject: Pronunciation of "googol"
In-Reply-To: <000f01c2a201$9e7db260$e6a3f5d1@annehpbrww9plk>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.092044.0800.>

I say Goo-g'l

Vida.
(in the Pacific NW)
-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Anne Gilbert
Sent: December 12, 2002 9:12 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "googol"


Paul:

> Is there a standard pronunciation of the word "googol"? I've seen and
heard
> GOO.gawl, goo.GAWL, and GOO.gul.

I don't know if this is "standard", but I always thought it was "GOO gul".
Anne G


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Thu Dec 12 17:19:43 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:19:43 -0500
Subject: Max Hunter Folk Song Collection
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021211174502.01efb008@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.121943.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes there is. The "correct" past tense for 'dive' is 'went diving' or
'took a dive'.

Beverly Flanigan said:
>There ain't no "correct" past tense for 'dive'!  Pass that on to your boss.
>
>At 03:30 PM 12/11/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>I searched the archives and didn't see this mentioned before. Don't ask how
>>my search went from:
>>
>>the correct past tense for dive
>>to Longfellow's "The Song of Hiawatha"
>>to Johnny Preston's "Running Bear"
>>to an audio database of folk songs sung by people from Missouri, Arkansas
>>and Oklahoma,
>>
>>but ya'll know how the Web sometimes works. Anyway, for anybody who was
>>unaware this was on-line and would like to have a listen:
>>
>>http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/maxhunter/Singer.html
>>
>>My apologies if this is repetitive.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec 12 18:44:24 2002
From: j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:44:24 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.134424.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James Smith wrote:

> So where does "science" fit?

I think the "I before E except..." rule is a rule of thumb for words
where the ie or ei is a digraph.  If the letters are in different
syllables--or were so in the Latin (or other) etymon (as in
"species")--that's a different situation.  Likewise the rule does
not apply to a word like "protein" which, though today usually
pronounced as only two syllables, is etymologically three.  But for
beginning spellers coping mostly with common words like "thief" and
"receive" and "neighbor," it's still a useful rule of thumb so long
as they aren't made to think that it is some sort of absolute
prescription.

For what it's worth, Random House Unabridged Dictionary on CD-ROM
shows 8685 entries containing either "ie" or "ei", of which 73% are
"ie".  Interestingly, that percentage holds (actually increases to
74%) following "c":  400 "cie" entries (from "abortifacient" to
"Waterton-Glacier International Peace Park") vs. 139 entries
containing "cei" (from "absolute ceiling" to "wide receiver").
Those could be studied in detail to sort out the principles
involved.

My own problem in spelling "science" as a child was not with vowels
but with the consonants.  I asked my grade-school teacher how to
spell the word, and she told me to look it up in the dictionary.  I
looked under "si..." and "ci..." and couldn't think of any other
letter that makes an "s" sound, so I had to admit failure.  Then she
tipped me off about the "sc".

Thank goodness I never had to look up "schism"!

James E. Clapp


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 12 19:03:31 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:03:31 -0500
Subject: Nam Prik (1897. 1898); LA TIMES online in NYPL
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.140331.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

LOS ANGELES TIMES

   I was checking the NYPL databases just now, and there was LOS ANGELES TIMES!  I clicked it, and it was Pro Quest!  YES!
   Before you can say "What's date do you have for chiffon pie?" or "When did they first call it 'Oscar'?" or "Can you give me the whole nine yards?", here's the bad news:
   The "Pre-1986" goes back only to 1985.
   But hey, it's there!  And the NYPL subscribes!

---------------------------------------------------------------
NAM PRIK

SIAM ON THE MEINAM
FROM THE GULF TO AYUTHIA
by Maxwell Sommerville
Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company
1897

Pg. 23:  Broths, fish, meat, sweets, fruits, and rice were to be had on demand.  To help this down, or to aid in digesting it, _nam-phrik_, a spicy sauce, consisting of bamboo, fruits, and many condiments, was plentifully served and employed.


FIVE YEARS IN SIAM
FROM 1891 TO 1896
by H. Warington Smyth
in two volumes
London: John Murray
1898

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 89:  _Pla heng_, a dried form of river fish, rivals the "Bombay duck" in delicacy, and is invaluable as a _kep kao_ or addition to the simple rice; _nam prik_, the "Worcester sauce" of the Siamese, is a fishy paste of a pleasingly mild type compared to some of the more virulent varieties of _kapi_ and its oils, so dear to the inhabitants of Indo-China, whether Burman, Chinaman, Malay, or Siamese.

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 320 (GLOSSARY):
_Nam:_  a river, used of waterways, of more importance than the _klong_ or _hue_, but not sufficiently large for the title _Menam_.
(...)
_Pla:_  fish.

---------------------------------------------------------------
SIAMESE COOKERY
by Marie M. Wilson
Rutland, Vermont: Charles E. Tuttle Company
1965

Pg. 13:  Some of these are eaten dipped in vinegar or _nam pla_ (fish sauce), or in egg batter and fried.

Pg. 20:  When a Siamese wishes to say he is hungry, he says, "_Hiu khao_" or "I'm hungry for rice."  When he is eating, he says "_Tan khao_" or "I'm eating rice."

Pg. 55:
Galloping Horses
Ma Ho
Here is a delicious orange salad.

Pg. 68:
Rama Bathing
Phra Ram Long Song

Pg. 86:
Nam Prik Canapes I
   The most popular and commonly-eaten dish in Thailand after rice and fish is a sauce known as _nam prik_.  It is used on rice and fish as well as on raw and cooked vegetables.  It is so exotic and strange to a foreigner that few come to like it.

Pg. 91:
Plump Horses
Ma Uan

---------------------------------------------------------------
JOYS AND SUBTLETIES
SOUTH EAST ASIAN COOKING
by Rosemary Brissenden
New York: Pantheon Books
1970, 1971

Pg. 50:  NASI GORENG (Fried Rice)

Pg. 104:  GULE PAKIS (Vegetable GUle)(Sumatra)

Pg. 106:  GADO-GADO (Cooked Vegetable Salad)

Pg. 222:  TOM YAM KUNG (Shrimp, Crayfish or Lobster Tom Yam)

Pg. 240:  NAM PRIK PAK (Raw Vegetables with Basic Hot Sauce)

Pg. 246:  MI KROB (Crisp Fried Noodles)

Pg. 247:  KAO PAD THAI (Thai Fried Rice)

Pg. 249:  MAH HO (Galloping Horses)

Pg. 250:  KAO THUNG (Rice Crisps)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec 12 19:15:13 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:15:13 -0500
Subject: Thai Food (1970, 1971,
 1978); Maltese Sauce (1959); Gado Gado (1969)
In-Reply-To: <14c.18be84df.2b29eb72@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.141513.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>    It was raining out, so I spent a quiet night (after work) in the Popik
>archives, brousing through the GOURMET index.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>---------------------------------------------
>THAI FOOD
>
>    "Mee Krob" or "Mi Krob" each has over 1,000 Google hits.  Neither spelling
>is in the revised OED(?).  THE OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD, pg. 791, "SOME THAI
>FOOD TERMS," explains that "_mee krob_ are wheat noodles deep-fried and
>coated in sugar syrup as a savoury dish."  WEBSTER'S NEW WORLD DICTIONARY OF
>CULINARY ARTS has:
>
>_mee krob_ (mee krob)  A Thai dish of deep-fried rice sticks, green onions,
>red bell peppers, chives, tofu, cilantro and a sweet-and-sour sauce.
>
Speaking of taboo avoidance ("drunk", "rag", "prik"), I've always
wondered whether diners in Thai restaurants in France order "mee
krob" without a second thought.  Luckily for us, the Great Vowel
Shift has prevented any confusion with our own microbes.

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec 12 19:33:59 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:33:59 -0500
Subject: Pronunciation of "googol"
In-Reply-To: <AOEIILHHOFBBPLHOHKDFIEEBFKAA.vidamorkunas@telus.net>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.143359.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:20 AM -0800 12/12/02, vida morkunas wrote:
>I say Goo-g'l
>
>Vida.
>(in the Pacific NW)

Me too, but I have an alternation with the full vowel for
"googolplex", where the [u] in the first syllable and the [a] in the
second both get secondary stress:

[,gu,gal'plEks]

(...which is, everyone will remember, 1 followed by a googol of
zeros.  A very large number indeed.  This too is defined in Gamow's
_One, Two, Three, Infinity_, or a title approximating that.

larry

P.S.  Actually, I think I've also known myself to use the ['gu,gal]
pronunciation for "google", with the full vowel.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec 12 19:35:03 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:35:03 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021212082250.10731F-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.143503.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:23 AM -0800 12/12/02, Peter Richardson wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, James Smith wrote:
>
>>  So where does "science" fit?
>
>You mean it's not "sceince"?

You mean it's not a homophone of "seance"?


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec 12 20:03:15 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:03:15 -0500
Subject: is Google reliable?
In-Reply-To: <msg57468.thr-a1eb80ee.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.150315.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET,Net writes:
>
>>Google is a very lame tool for lexical research compared to, say, a
>>robust,
>>dynamic corpus of contemporary English.
>
>While I have not a very high opinion of a "straight" google search, it
>is made more useful for general linguistic research in news media by
>using "Google News."  This resource is described in their own words:
>Google News presents information culled from approximately 4,000 news
>sources worldwide and automatically arranged to present the most
>relevant news first. Topics are updated continuously throughout the
>day, so you will see new stories each time you check the page.

In defense of the recently maligned (straight, non-news) Google...I'm
sure Frank, David et al. are right for some searches.  But if you're
trying to track down innovative uses of language by ordinary people
and/or by those writing in a wide variety of (non-news) places,
google.com actually provides better feedback than the news.google.com
site.   In my work on un-nouns (most recently checking out various
antedates for "unmarriage", prompted by a New Yorker talk of the town
piece in the 12/9/02 issue) and on "spitten image", I've used google
to confirm, for example, that (a) "spitten" (both as a participle in
general and in "spitten image" in particular) is alive and well in
various non-standard varieties of English and that (b) "unmarriage",
with meanings ranging from "the state of being in a committed
relationship that isn't a marriage" to a near-synonym for divorce or
separation, has been around since at least the early 1970's.  The
latter information is not available in the OED, AHD4, or through
news.google.com, which in fact brings up one hit for "unmarriage",
that same recent New Yorker piece that prompted my search in the
first place.  So if you find google lame or unworthy for lexical
research, fine; I'll keep it in my bookmarks.

larry

P.S.  It's also quite handy for checking out reanalyses in progress,
in a way that more carefully edited resources (the ones indexed by
news.google or Nexis) aren't


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec 12 20:09:34 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:09:34 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <008b01c2a20e$7e52e980$b345c718@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.120934.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sigh!  O.k., here goes:

But their, weird, either
Foreign, seize and neither,
Leisure, forfeit and height,
Science, abortifacient, [fill in the remaining 397 "cie" entries here]
And Waterton-Glacier International Peace Park
Are exceptions spelled right.

There, that should take care of it! :)

Peter Mc.

--On Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:44 PM -0500 "James E. Clapp"
<j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:

> For what it's worth, Random House Unabridged Dictionary on CD-ROM
> shows 8685 entries containing either "ie" or "ei", of which 73% are
> "ie".  Interestingly, that percentage holds (actually increases to
> 74%) following "c":  400 "cie" entries (from "abortifacient" to
> "Waterton-Glacier International Peace Park") vs. 139 entries
> containing "cei" (from "absolute ceiling" to "wide receiver").
> Those could be studied in detail to sort out the principles
> involved.



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec 12 20:52:11 2002
From: j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:52:11 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.155211.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dave Hause wrote:

> A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed one
> word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out the
> spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
> spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
> pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
> research this.

Thom Harrison gave what for me was a very enlightening answer, but
not one intended for a six-year-old.  For the child, this seems like
a good opportunity to reinforce the point that spelling is not just
an arbitrary process; there are principles of sound-spelling
correspondence that are pretty consistent.  The principle here is:
When a word ends with a "k" sound after a "short" vowel, it is
usually spelled "-ck".  This isn't something special about the word
"quick"; it's a general rule you can use to spell lots and lots of
words--even if you've never seen them before.  "Back" and "tack" and
"neck" and "peck" and "lick" and "stick" and "lock" and "sock" and
"luck" and "duck"--if you know the rule, you can write them all.

It is true that other ways of spelling the words might be pronounced
the same, but it's nice to have just one way that you know is almost
always right.  You might see words that don't follow this rule, but
you can learn those as you go along.  In the meantime, if you aren't
sure it's something else, "-ck" is a good guess for any "k" sound
after a short vowel.  (And of course, product names like Kodak
cameras and Nestle's Quik don't count; sometimes companies use a
funny spelling just to get attention.)

This assumes that the child has been introduced to "short" vs.
"long" vowel sounds.  I don't think I was taught phonics until a
little after that, but this child obviously has been introduced to
phonetics and shows an interest in and knack for it (witness the
quoted statement); and since she herself raised the question of
pronunciation, this might be the time to introduce her the "short"
vowel sounds of hat, bet, hit, hot, and hut if she hasn't already
been introduced to the concept.

For the record, it appears that most of the words ending with a
short vowel and "-k" or "-q" are either loanwords or foreign names,
like apparatchnik, kayak, and (in my pronunciation) Iraq.

James E. Clapp


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Dec 12 19:47:19 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:47:19 -0500
Subject: is Google reliable?
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.144719.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

laurence.horn at YALE.EDU,Net writes:
>So if you find google lame or unworthy for lexical
>research, fine; I'll keep it in my bookmarks.

I agree with your choice to keep Google (non-news) in your inventory of
bookmarks.  And you are quite right in your evaluation of "straight"
Google for your work.  I use it too in the research for the Dictionary
Companion.  However, the tradition in modern lexicographical research
of relying upon print media (and their e-versions) is quite
understandable.  The greatest problem facing users of electronically
retrievable resources is the shear volume of hits to wade through.  For
the important neologisms a well-constructed balanced range of
periodical publications used over a long period of time proves
satisfactory.

Regards,
David Barnhart


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec 12 21:09:37 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:09:37 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <00b701c2a220$584d2860$b345c718@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.160937.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:52 PM -0500 12/12/02, James E. Clapp wrote:
>Dave Hause wrote:
>
>>  A relayed question from a friend's six year old daughter, who had missed one
>>  word on a spelling test and thus sentenced herself to have to write out the
>>  spelling words for the rest of the week and retake the test:  "quick"
>>  spelled as "quik."  "But Mommy, why is that wrong?  They would both be
>>  pronounced with the same sound."  I haven't the vaguest idea where to
>>  research this.
>
>Thom Harrison gave what for me was a very enlightening answer, but
>not one intended for a six-year-old.  For the child, this seems like
>a good opportunity to reinforce the point that spelling is not just
>an arbitrary process; there are principles of sound-spelling
>correspondence that are pretty consistent.  The principle here is:
>When a word ends with a "k" sound after a "short" vowel, it is
>usually spelled "-ck".  This isn't something special about the word
>"quick"; it's a general rule you can use to spell lots and lots of
>words--even if you've never seen them before.  "Back" and "tack" and
>"neck" and "peck" and "lick" and "stick" and "lock" and "sock" and
>"luck" and "duck"--if you know the rule, you can write them all.
>
Including obscenities to be written or spray-painted on walls that
one would certainly want one's six-year-old to spell correctly.

Larry


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Thu Dec 12 21:20:11 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:20:11 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <008b01c2a20e$7e52e980$b345c718@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.162011.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, James E. Clapp wrote:

#My own problem in spelling "science" as a child was not with vowels
#but with the consonants.  I asked my grade-school teacher how to
#spell the word, and she told me to look it up in the dictionary.  I
#looked under "si..." and "ci..." and couldn't think of any other
#letter that makes an "s" sound, so I had to admit failure.  Then she
#tipped me off about the "sc".
#
#Thank goodness I never had to look up "schism"!

The one that drove me bonkers was "phthisic"!

-- Mark A. Mandel


From j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec 12 21:37:22 2002
From: j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:37:22 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.163722.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter, you've given me the best rollicking belly laugh I've had in
months!

But no, that doesn't quite take care of it.  Let's not forget the
2,198 additional entries with "ei" not after "c"--ranging roughly from
"ageist" to "Zeitgeist"! :)

James E. Clapp


----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: English spelling origin (OT?)


Sigh!  O.k., here goes:

But their, weird, either
Foreign, seize and neither,
Leisure, forfeit and height,
Science, abortifacient, [fill in the remaining 397 "cie" entries here]
And Waterton-Glacier International Peace Park
Are exceptions spelled right.

There, that should take care of it! :)

Peter Mc.


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec 12 21:45:15 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:45:15 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <351351.1039694973@[10.218.201.115]>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.134515.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fabulous, Peter. It fairly trips off the tongue.

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> Sigh!  O.k., here goes:
>
> But their, weird, either
> Foreign, seize and neither,
> Leisure, forfeit and height,
> Science, abortifacient, [fill in the remaining 397 "cie" entries here]
> And Waterton-Glacier International Peace Park
> Are exceptions spelled right.
>
> There, that should take care of it! :)
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> --On Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:44 PM -0500 "James E. Clapp"
> <j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
>
> > For what it's worth, Random House Unabridged Dictionary on CD-ROM
> > shows 8685 entries containing either "ie" or "ei", of which 73% are
> > "ie".  Interestingly, that percentage holds (actually increases to
> > 74%) following "c":  400 "cie" entries (from "abortifacient" to
> > "Waterton-Glacier International Peace Park") vs. 139 entries
> > containing "cei" (from "absolute ceiling" to "wide receiver").
> > Those could be studied in detail to sort out the principles
> > involved.
>
>
>
> ****************************************************************************
>                                Peter A. McGraw
>                    Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
>                             pmcgraw at linfield.edu
>


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Thu Dec 12 21:45:26 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:45:26 -0500
Subject: Max Hunter Folk Song Collection
In-Reply-To: <a05200f06ba1e7578c877@[130.132.95.208]>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.164526.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Alice Faber wrote:

#Yes there is. The "correct" past tense for 'dive' is 'went diving' or
#'took a dive'.

Duv.

-- Mark A. Mandel ;-)


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec 12 21:50:50 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:50:50 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212121619420.80032298-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.135050.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> The one that drove me bonkers was "phthisic"!

Oh, that's an easy one: "Th before ph except before -isic.">


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec 12 21:56:33 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:56:33 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <p04320416ba1eab428b82@[130.132.245.190]>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.135633.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, December 12, 2002 4:09 PM -0500 Laurence Horn
<laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:

>> "luck" and "duck"--if you know the rule, you can write them all.
>>
> Including obscenities to be written or spray-painted on walls that
> one would certainly want one's six-year-old to spell correctly.

You should have been in my first-grade class when the teacher got an
ill-advised rhyming game going!

Peter Mc.

****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec 12 22:18:25 2002
From: j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:18:25 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.171825.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter Richardson wrote:

> Oh, that's an easy one: "Th before ph except before -isic."

Another great laugh!  We've got to get you and Peter McGraw in
charge of curriculum development for the "no child left behind"
program.

James E. Clapp


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Dec 12 22:35:04 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:35:04 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <014301c2a226$a7e5afe0$b345c718@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.143504.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, December 12, 2002 4:37 PM -0500 "James E. Clapp"
<j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:

> But no, that doesn't quite take care of it.  Let's not forget the
> 2,198 additional entries with "ei" not after "c"--ranging roughly from
> "ageist" to "Zeitgeist"! :)

I wonder if those 2,198 entries include a favorite of mine: "Titleist" (a
brand of golf equipment, apparently).  Always brings me up short when I see
it on bumper stickers.  --PMc


****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Dec 12 22:41:53 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:41:53 -0500
Subject: Thai Food (1970, 1971,
 1978); Maltese Sauce (1959); Gado Gado (1969)
In-Reply-To: <p04320404ba1e8fff23c4@[130.132.245.190]>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.174153.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Speaking of taboo avoidance ("drunk", "rag", "prik"), I've always
>wondered whether diners in Thai restaurants in France order "mee
>krob" without a second thought.  Luckily for us, the Great Vowel
>Shift has prevented any confusion with our own microbes.

The final "b" will be more like "p" in Thai (as in German), I think. [But I
may be wrong, as I've forgotten most of what little Thai I ever knew.]

In Thai, a man/woman often appends "krap"/"ka" at the end of an utterance
for 'politeness' or so: e.g., Thai greeting "sawatdi" will be "sawatdi
krap" from a man, "sawatdi ka" from a woman. I've seen somebody (a
non-Thai-speaker obviously) represent his impression of spoken Thai (spoken
by a man) as something like "crop crap crop crop crap". Actually this Thai
"krap" seems (to me) to rhyme with English "cop" [no "caughp"/"cop" merger
here] or almost with "cup".

When Googling for Thai items, note that there is often "l" for "r", and
also consonant clusters tend to lose their "r"s and "l"s: thus occasionally
"mi klob" for "mi krob", often "Chao Phaya" for "Chao Phraya" (the river),
occasionally "nam pa" for "nam pla" [oops, I forgot to check for this in my
recent Google search, but it turns out there are no additional hits in my
contexts], often "falang" for "farang" (= "white person"/"Westerner" or =
"guava"), etc. I don't know whether these changes are considered dialectal
or simply erroneous/sloppy. Also note "kh" versus "k", etc., and "v" versus
"w", and "ph" sometimes used for "f".

-- Doug Wilson


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Thu Dec 12 22:42:05 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:42:05 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <a05010403ba1e34a4a63b@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.174205.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis,

Dishcloth is English in SE Michigan, or at least it was half a century ago.
But that's also when I first learned the word "hillbilly".  It was applied
to
people from Ohio who were moving their housetrailers into the outskirts of
Waltz.  Put that in your pip and smoke it.

Herb

Stephani,

I think Beverly is neither a prescriptivist nor a nit-picker (unless
I have completely misjudged her character). She may have actually had
some phonology in mind (the vowel of "cloth"?), not trivial spelling
stuff, which I am sure we all give less than a hoot about, except
when spelling "errors" reflect dialect variants.

I am a Kentuckian (well, Louisvillian) and find "washrag" (actually
"warshrag") very common. On the other hand, "warshcloth" seems quite
good to me too, but I'm taking bets it came later in my linguistic
development.

BUT - I cannot say "dishcloth." It's not English. "Dishrag" is it.

Back to the point. Since this was a "little sister," we may simply be
witnessing the death of "-rag" and the victory of "-cloth." The
mainstream pejorative senses of "rag" could have a lot to do with
this (as the late Harold Allen argued in AS long ago about
participial "drunk" being replaced by "drank," a process which he
claimed was at least in part due to contamination by inebriated sense
of "drunk").

dInIs

PS: Isn't there some Transatlantic word like "flannel" for this? Has
that held its ground?

PPS: Some people on this list have questioned my authority when I
make such pronouncements as "It's not English."

1) I am the President (until January) of the American Dialect Society.

2) If that's not enough, I recently did an acoustic (LPC) analysis of
my vowel system. Every one of my steady state F1-F2 readings lies
exactly on top of the male formant values given in Peterson and
Barney (1952). (OK, I didn't look at any /E/s before nasals, and I
didn't check the glides of diphthongs.)



>OH Please!!   I think we all know Deidra meant "washcloths".  I hope we
have
>more to do with our time than to come in here and check for mistakes in
>spelling and grammar.  If we could refrain from being 'know it alls' more
>people would feel comfortable responding to messages on-line, and we would
not
>be missing out on their input.  Put that in your pip and smoke it (I
>misspelled
>pipe just for you Beverly).
>
>Deidra makes a good point.  I think it's interesting that the phrase "warsh
>rag" was alien to her sister.  Especially considering the fact that she
lives
>in Kentucky, where it is pretty common.

Stephani Hardin
--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Thu Dec 12 22:42:10 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 17:42:10 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <a05010401ba1e32501a2b@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.174210.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

[dEn at s]

And you haven't shared any of those with us?  This core (Michigan) NLB feels
slighted.

Herb


Candace,

I am from Louisville, and I have taught and studied my entire
professional life at Wisconsin, Ohio State, SUNY, and now Michigan
State. I have an enormous set of put-downs, one-liners, quick
come-backs, and even detailed arguments (the last the least
effective) to use against NLBs (Northern Language Bigots). Stay in
touch if you need me.

dInIs




I am going to be teaching soon and I have a very large fear of how I will
sound to my class with my kentucky accent.  Especially if I leave the state.

Candace Cool


--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec 12 23:19:12 2002
From: j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:19:12 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.181912.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter McGraw wrote:

> I wonder if those 2,198 entries include a favorite of mine: "Titleist" (a
> brand of golf equipment, apparently).  Always brings me up short when I see
> it on bumper stickers.  --PMc

No; RHUD on CD-ROM has "titlist" but no "titleist."  The other dictionaries I
have at hand concur.

James E. Clapp


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Dec 12 23:33:19 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 18:33:19 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <msg57481.thr-3702f8fb.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.183319.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> >BUT - I cannot say "dishcloth." It's not English. "Dishrag" is it.
>
>While I cannot say these are my preferences, they were so for my father
>(born in Missouri with some probable connections to Kentucky, and
>raised in Kansas.  I know both of these terms from my father's speech
>but prefer dishcloth to dishrag ....

Vance Randolph: a Missouri (Ozarks) story:

<<One time there was a young farmer had some folks come over to his place
for supper.

... the baby come a-crawling out on the floor, and you could see where he
has shit all over himself. ... the man spoke right up. "Marthy," says he,
"fetch the dishrag, and wipe that young-un's ass. If there's one thing I
can't stand, it's nastiness!"

... They didn't go there for supper no more ....>>

I grew up (in Detroit) with "dishrag" ... and "washrag" ... and "dustrag"
... and even "do-rag" (for the [hair]do). [My folks would not have endorsed
"snot-rag" = "handkerchief" however.]

But no "dishrag" for me any more, since I read this story.

-- Doug Wilson


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Dec 13 00:34:09 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 19:34:09 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <00b701c2a220$584d2860$b345c718@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.193409.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 James E. Clapp writes:
>....... there are principles of sound-spelling
>correspondence that are pretty consistent.  The principle here is:
>When a word ends with a "k" sound after a "short" vowel, it is
>usually spelled "-ck".  This isn't something special about the word
>"quick"; it's a general rule you can use to spell lots and lots of
>words--even if you've never seen them before.  "Back" and "tack" and
>"neck" and "peck" and "lick" and "stick" and "lock" and "sock" and
>"luck" and "duck"--if you know the rule, you can write them all.
~~~~~~~~~
Um, well there are all those words  with the adjectival suffix /-ic/as well
as "magic" & "logic," &c. They may have had a / k/ in the eighteenth
century, but no longer.
AM


From dumasb at UTK.EDU  Fri Dec 13 02:54:38 2002
From: dumasb at UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:54:38 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.215438.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have been trying to figure out what <OT> means in this thread - all I think
of is Old Testament.

Bethany


From hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET  Fri Dec 13 03:35:08 2002
From: hstahlke at WORLDNET.ATT.NET (Herbert Stahlke)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 22:35:08 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <3E032A4E@webmail.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.223508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Off topic?

Herb

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Bethany K. Dumas
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 9:55 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: English spelling origin (OT?)


I have been trying to figure out what <OT> means in this thread - all I
think
of is Old Testament.

Bethany


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Fri Dec 13 03:51:48 2002
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 21:51:48 -0600
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.215148.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Herb was right.  I'm fairly new here and didn't want to offend by posting a
question which might be considered off topic.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTK.EDU>


I have been trying to figure out what <OT> means in this thread - all I
think
of is Old Testament.

Bethany


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Fri Dec 13 03:55:26 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 22:55:26 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <0b0201c2a25a$f72ef000$cebf22d0@dwhause>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.225526.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Dave Hause wrote:

>Herb was right.  I'm fairly new here and didn't want to offend by posting a
>question which might be considered off topic.

Thanks, Herb and Dave.

Bethany


From j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Dec 13 04:49:58 2002
From: j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:49:58 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.234958.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

sagehen wrote:

> Um, well there are all those words  with the adjectival suffix /-ic/as well
> as "magic" & "logic," &c. They may have had a / k/ in the eighteenth
> century, but no longer.

Oh, those.  I meant to say:

        C before K, except after I
        in multisyllabic words like phthalic and phthisic.

I'm still working on the rhyme...  and all the other exceptions involving a
final c (like "maniac").  I'm afraid I was focusing on the specific question
of -ck vs. -k and overlooked the problem of -ck vs. -c.  Still, for
monosyllables at the level of a six-year-old's spelling lessons, "ck" for "k"
sound after short vowel is a pretty good rule of thumb.  I'll have to leave
it to Thom Harrison to sort out the details of when and why we use -c
instead.

Thanks for pointing this out.

James E. Clapp


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Dec 13 07:04:33 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 23:04:33 -0800
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <00b701c2a220$584d2860$b345c718@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.12.DEC.2002.230433.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>...For the child, this seems like
>a good opportunity to reinforce the point that spelling is not just
>an arbitrary process; there are principles of sound-spelling
>correspondence that are pretty consistent.  The principle here is:
>When a word ends with a "k" sound after a "short" vowel, it is
>usually spelled "-ck".  This isn't something special about the word
>"quick"; it's a general rule you can use to spell lots and lots of
>words--even if you've never seen them before.  "Back" and "tack" and
>"neck" and "peck" and "lick" and "stick" and "lock" and "sock" and
>"luck" and "duck"--if you know the rule, you can write them all.

Good response, Jim.  And it reminds me of when my sister was just
learning to write/spell and ended up with pickqunickqu (for picnic)
because she didn't know which final consonant to use.

Rima


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 13 10:01:15 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 05:01:15 EST
Subject: Gado Gado (1963) and Mee Krob (1973)
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.050115.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Here are the top number of country recipes on www.recipesource.com
(formerly SOAR at Cal-Berkeley), with many other countries left out after
Thai:

Chinese  899 recipes
Mexican  806 recipes
Italian 663 recipes
Indian & Pakistani  607 recipes
Cajun  549 recipes
Greece  409 recipes
Thai 354 recipes
German  234 recipes
French 110 recipes

   Is that right?  French is all the way down there?
   For what it's worth, Thai is an impressive number seven.   You'd think
that would at least get "Pad Thai" into dictionaries, but I don't have a say
in this.
   Here are two recipes found in SUNSET magazine, which is known for its
cooking columns for western American readers.


May 1963, SUNSET
Pg. 192:
The menu comes from a family from Bandung now living in California.  They
have served it to their Western friends with great success. (...)
_Sate Ajam_
(Grilled Chicken on Skewers)
_Gado Gado_
(Salad)
_Soto Ajam_
(Chicken and Vegetable Soup)
_Kerupuk_
(Puffed Shrimp Chips)
_Nazi_
(Rice)
_Lapis_
(Coconut Dessert)

Pg. 194:
The salad most popular in Indonesia is called Gado Gado.  It is made in
layers of cooked qand raw vegetables topped with some of the Peanut Sauce
above.
_GADO GADO_
   2 quarts water
   2 2/3 teaspoons salt
   1 cup bean sprouts, stringy ends removed
   1/2 medium-sized head of cabbage. leaves cut in 2-inch squares
   1 1/2 cups green beans in 1 1/2-inch pieces (or 1 package 9 oz., frozen
cut green beans)
   1 large potato, peeled and in thin, halved slices
   3/4 cup Peanut Sauce (recipe above)
   2 hard cooked eggs, in quarter-inch slices
   In a large kettle, bring the salted water to a boil; add bean sprouts and
cook just until tender crisp, about 3 minutes; remove with a strainer or
slotted spoon and drain.  Chill in the refrigerator.
   in the same water, cook the cabbage until tender (about 4 minutes), remove
from water, drain and refrigerate.  Cook green beans in same water just until
tender (8 to 10 minutes); remove, drain.  Reserve vegetable stock for the
soup.  Allow vegetables to cool.
   Layer vegetables on the platter in this order: Cabbage, diced potatoes,
cucumbers, grean beans, and bean sprouts.  Pour over Peanut Sauce.  Arrange
hard cooked egg slices over top.  Refrigerate a few minutes before serving.
Serves 4 to 6.


March 1973, SUNSET
Pg. 164, col. 1:
   _Almost everybody_
   _likes her crunchy_
   _Thai noodles_
_Literally translated,_ _Mee Krob_ means crunchy noodles, an apt description
of this fried noodle dish from Thailand.  But to many Thais there's something
more in the name--the word _krob_ sounds like the crackly noise you make when
eating the brittle, puffy noodles.  The textures and contrasts of flavors
make this a rather exotic dish, but most people like it the first time they
taste it.  Begin by frying the rice noodles in hot oil.  It's a dramatic
procedure: Just a small handful swell so quickly in hot oil they look like
they're going to burst.  Mix them into a rich, slightly sweet and sour sauce
laced with pork, chicken and

Col. 2 photo caption of Thai woman cooking noodles:
_Crunchy Thai noodles_ to mix with pork, chicken, and shrimp in a rich sauce.

Pg. 166, col. 2:
shrimp.  Then serve the noodles with crisp fresh bean sprouts, lengths of
green onions, and cool lime wedges.
(...)
You will need to shop at an Oriental market for the rice noodles, yellow bean
sauce, and fish soy.  The noodles are often called rice sticks, but may also
be called long rice, _py mei fun_, or _mai fun_.
(...) (Col. 2--ed.)
_Thai Crunchy Noodles_ (Mee Krob)
   About 4 cups salad oil
   1/4 pound rice noodles (rice sticks)
   1/4 cup _each_ sugar, lime juice, yellow bean sauce, and catsup
   2 tablespoons fish soy or soy sauce
   4 cloves garlic, minced or mashed
   1 small onion, finely chopped
   1/2 pound lean boneless pork, cut into strips 1/8 inch thick, 1/2 inch
wide, by 2 inches long
   1 chicken breast (about 1 lb.) skinned and boned, cut into strips 1/4 inch
thick, 1/2 by 2 inches
   1/2 pound medium-sized raw shrimp, shelled and deveined
   1/2 pound bean sprouts, washed and drained
   4 green onions, cut into 4-inch lengths
   1 lime, cut in wedges
   Pour the salad oil to about 1 inch deep in a wok (steady the wok in a ring
stand) or in a 12-inch frying pan; heat the oil to 375 degress, then drop in
a msall handful of the noodles at a time.  As they puff and expand, push them
down into the oil, then turn the entire mass over.  When all the noodles are
puffy and stop crackling, about 15 seconds, remove and drain.  Skim any bits
of noodles out of oil before frying the next handful.  Keep warm in a 200
degree oven until serving or let cool and package airtight up to one day
before serving.
   To reheat fried noodles, place uncovered, in a 200 degree oven for about
10 minutes while cooking the meat and sauce.
   In a small bowl stir together the sugar, lime juice, bean sauce, catsup,
and soy; set aside.  Have all remaining ingredients chopped and measured
before beginning to cook.
   Just before serving, heat 2 tablespoons salad oil in the wok or 12-inch
frying pan over high heat until hot.  Add the garlic and onion; cook,
stirring constantly, for 1 minute.  Add the pork and continue stirring: cook
about  3 minutes.  Add the chicken and shrimp, stirring constantly; cook 4
minutes or until shrimp firms and turns pink.  Stir in the sauce mixture and
cook 2 minutes.  Remove from heat and let cool 3 minutes.
   Gently fold in fried noodles a portion at a time, until all the noodles
are lightly coated with the sauce.  To serve, mound noodles in the center of
a large platter and surround with bean sprouts.  Garnish with green onions
and lime wedges.  Makes 4 servings.

(Compare OED's Italian noodle entries with its Thai noodle non-entries...This
is too complicated for me.  I'll just marry the beautiful Thai woman in the
photo---ed.)


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Dec 13 10:15:25 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 05:15:25 -0500
Subject: FW: is Google reliable?
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.051525.0500.>

Re what Larry H says below on this recent thread, yes, i use Google daily,
and just in the way that he and David B say.  All I meant was (as David
said, too) that it is not a profound and important source for
lexicographical research.  It is not unuseful (that un- for you, Larry), but
it is secondary at best.

At Oxford I had access to Brit Natl Corpus, a huge online citation file
(OED's, much of it from US sources), and miscellaneous enormous, searchable
text files from Ling Data Consortium.  That is the kind of stuff that works
best for lexos.  BNC is a bit marginal for American purposes, but it is
quite valuable still, despite its age and Britishness.  Also useful, for
historical purposes, is the stuff that Barry Popik and Fred Shapiro
regularly use -- JSTOR, NYT full-text, Making of America, etc.  They have
proven the value of these, time and again, on this list.

Whatever happened to the effort to build a US corpus a la BNC (but bigger)?
There was an American National Corpus effort going -- status, anyone?

Frank Abate


>abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET,Net writes:
>
>>Google is a very lame tool for lexical research compared to, say, a
>>robust,
>>dynamic corpus of contemporary English.
>
>While I have not a very high opinion of a "straight" google search, it
>is made more useful for general linguistic research in news media by
>using "Google News."  This resource is described in their own words:
>Google News presents information culled from approximately 4,000 news
>sources worldwide and automatically arranged to present the most
>relevant news first. Topics are updated continuously throughout the
>day, so you will see new stories each time you check the page.

In defense of the recently maligned (straight, non-news) Google...I'm
sure Frank, David et al. are right for some searches.  But if you're
trying to track down innovative uses of language by ordinary people
and/or by those writing in a wide variety of (non-news) places,
google.com actually provides better feedback than the news.google.com
site.   In my work on un-nouns (most recently checking out various
antedates for "unmarriage", prompted by a New Yorker talk of the town
piece in the 12/9/02 issue) and on "spitten image", I've used google
to confirm, for example, that (a) "spitten" (both as a participle in
general and in "spitten image" in particular) is alive and well in
various non-standard varieties of English and that (b) "unmarriage",
with meanings ranging from "the state of being in a committed
relationship that isn't a marriage" to a near-synonym for divorce or
separation, has been around since at least the early 1970's.  The
latter information is not available in the OED, AHD4, or through
news.google.com, which in fact brings up one hit for "unmarriage",
that same recent New Yorker piece that prompted my search in the
first place.  So if you find google lame or unworthy for lexical
research, fine; I'll keep it in my bookmarks.

larry

P.S.  It's also quite handy for checking out reanalyses in progress,
in a way that more carefully edited resources (the ones indexed by
news.google or Nexis) aren't


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Dec 13 12:26:03 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:26:03 -0500
Subject: Teaching With a Kentucky Accent
In-Reply-To: <GCEEKFLPBKGFLHGNDPJKOEIECAAA.hstahlke@worldnet.att.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.072603.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>They are for insiders only (lest you get prepared for them).

dInIs



>[dEn at s]
>
>And you haven't shared any of those with us?  This core (Michigan) NLB feels
>slighted.
>
>Herb
>
>
>Candace,
>
>I am from Louisville, and I have taught and studied my entire
>professional life at Wisconsin, Ohio State, SUNY, and now Michigan
>State. I have an enormous set of put-downs, one-liners, quick
>come-backs, and even detailed arguments (the last the least
>effective) to use against NLBs (Northern Language Bigots). Stay in
>touch if you need me.
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
>
>I am going to be teaching soon and I have a very large fear of how I will
>sound to my class with my kentucky accent.  Especially if I leave the state.
>
>Candace Cool
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>       Asian & African Languages
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
>e-mail: preston at msu.edu
>phone: (517) 353-9290

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Fri Dec 13 12:29:00 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 07:29:00 -0500
Subject: English spelling origin (OT?)
In-Reply-To: <0b0201c2a25a$f72ef000$cebf22d0@dwhause>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.072900.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ya'll will have to get used to the fact that on linguistics lists
'OT' means 'Optimality Theory.'

dInIs


Herb was right.  I'm fairly new here and didn't want to offend by posting a
question which might be considered off topic.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTK.EDU>


I have been trying to figure out what <OT> means in this thread - all I
think
of is Old Testament.

Bethany

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 13 15:56:00 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:56:00 -0500
Subject: FW: is Google reliable?
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAMEJKDGAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.105600.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:15 AM -0500 12/13/02, Frank Abate wrote:
>Re what Larry H says below on this recent thread, yes, i use Google daily,
>and just in the way that he and David B say.  All I meant was (as David
>said, too) that it is not a profound and important source for
>lexicographical research.  It is not unuseful (that un- for you, Larry), but
>it is secondary at best.
>

but earlier, he had written:

>  >
>>>Google is a very lame tool for lexical research compared to, say, a
>  >>robust, dynamic corpus of contemporary English.
>  >

I see know that our apparent disagreement was largely over goals and
terminology.  What I do is research on lexical semantics and
pragmatics, which is a different enterprise from that of doing
lexicography per se.  In his original posting, Frank was deprecating
(ordinary) google as a tool for LEXICAL RESEARCH, which I take to
include what I do.  In the current post, he refers more specifically
to LEXICOGRAPHICAL RESEARCH, which is a more specific kettle of fish
(although a kettle in which I too like to angle from time to time).

So the disagreement is amicably resolved, and thanks to this thread I
now know about the very useful (to me) search engine at
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search, so it's been a
constructive disagreement as these things go.

Larry


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Dec 13 16:21:47 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:21:47 -0800
Subject: new word
In-Reply-To: <p04320401ba1fb0fd266a@[130.132.245.217]>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.082147.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There was a very nice neologism on NPR this morning, from a reporter
talking about the Cardinal's resignation in Boston. Something about a
difficult "concantenation" of events that led to the event. Good
combination of concatenation and incantation, a lesson for us all. Maybe.
Or perhaps I didn't have my ears buckled on straight yet; it was early,
after all.

PR


From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG  Fri Dec 13 17:35:49 2002
From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:35:49 -0400
Subject: FW: is Google reliable?
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAMEJKDGAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.133549.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 12/13/2002 06:15, Frank Abate wrote the following:

>Whatever happened to the effort to build a US corpus a la BNC (but bigger)?
>There was an American National Corpus effort going -- status, anyone?

They're about to put out about 10 million words, it seems.  See
<http://americannationalcorpus.org/>:

"The first release of 10 million words of the ANC corpus is scheduled for
mid-fall. The corpus will be annotated for part of speech and include a
"base set" of tools for search and extraction, a preliminary version of the
access tools that will provided with the final corpus. A password-protected
web interface for testing the tools on a sub-set of the data is expected to
be accessible to ANC Consortium members at the end of this month.

"Acquisition of texts is proceeding, although more slowly than planned. The
first release of the ANC will contain whatever texts are in hand, and will
therefore not be balanced for genre (as originally stipulated in ANC
documentation). So far, we have acquired about 2 million words of spoken
data (the LDC Switchboard corpus and a portion of the CallHome corpus), 1.5
million words of previously un-released newspaper data from the New York
Times, a few hundred thousand words of "ephemera" (pamphlets, newletters,
etc.), and several novels published by Oxford University Press USA. We
expect to receive substantially more data from the contributing consortium
members to include in the first release, including not only fiction and
journals but also various Berlitz Travel Guides (Langenscheidt) and
technical manuals from Microsoft and IBM. We are also negotiating to
acquire research papers from the Association for Computational Linguistics
and articles from the IBM Research Journal."

Cheers,
Scott

_____________________________________________________________
Scott Sadowsky  --  Spanish-English / English-Spanish Translator

sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org ? sadowsky at bigfoot.com
http://www.spanishtranslator.org
_____________________________________________________________
"La soberan?a del hablante nativo no tiene m?s l?mites que los de su
  sistema mental real, sin que tengan que importarle en absoluto las
  opiniones de las presuntas 'autoridades en la materia' empe?adas
  en cocear la gramaticalidad con normativismos de su propia cosecha."
   -- Carlos-Peregr?n Otero


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Dec 13 16:54:23 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:54:23 -0500
Subject: Not-quite homographs
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.115423.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry's use of " deprecating" reminds me of a form of common confusion that
seems to have moved from the page to speech, for example: the substitution
of "deprecatory" for "depreciatory,"  especially in the expression
"self-depreciatory."
Is there a technical term for this sort of confusion?  Malapropism doesn't
seem to cover  it.
A. Murie


From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST  Fri Dec 13 16:47:13 2002
From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 17:47:13 +0100
Subject: Six and ten
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.174713.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A translator's problem:

A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has bought a dish antenna because he thinks that the Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has paid 4000 $ for the dish and is deceived. He says:
"I spent four grand for the dish.
And what do I get? Six and ten!"

My question is: What does he mean by "six and ten"?

Jan Ivarsson, TransEdit
Translator, Subtitler
jan.ivarsson at transedit.st
http://www.transedit.st


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 13 17:04:34 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:04:34 -0500
Subject: Six and ten
In-Reply-To: <000701c2a2c7$4d643680$c8ded0d9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.120434.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:47 PM +0100 12/13/02, Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote:
>A translator's problem:
>
>A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has bought a dish antenna
>because he thinks that the Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has
>paid 4000 $ for the dish and is deceived. He says:
>"I spent four grand for the dish.
>And what do I get? Six and ten!"
>
>My question is: What does he mean by "six and ten"?
>
Presumably the best record the Bears could finish with.  After ending
up 13-3 (with a lot of fortunate bouncings of the ball their way)
last year, they've suffered a lot of injuries this year and haven't
really taken to playing in Champaign-Urbana while their home stadium
(Soldiers' Field in Chicago) is being rehabbed), and are currently
3-10, extremely unlikely to finish even at the lowly 6-10.  It's not
an expression, just a disappointing record the Bears are almost
certain not to reach.

Larry


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 13 17:29:21 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:29:21 -0500
Subject: Six and ten
In-Reply-To: <p04320404ba1fc2f15e35@[130.132.245.217]>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.122921.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn said:
>At 5:47 PM +0100 12/13/02, Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote:
>>A translator's problem:
>>
>>A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has bought a dish antenna
>>because he thinks that the Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has
>>paid 4000 $ for the dish and is deceived. He says:
>>"I spent four grand for the dish.
>>And what do I get? Six and ten!"
>>
>>My question is: What does he mean by "six and ten"?
>>
>Presumably the best record the Bears could finish with.  After ending
>up 13-3 (with a lot of fortunate bouncings of the ball their way)
>last year, they've suffered a lot of injuries this year and haven't
>really taken to playing in Champaign-Urbana while their home stadium
>(Soldiers' Field in Chicago) is being rehabbed), and are currently
>3-10, extremely unlikely to finish even at the lowly 6-10.  It's not
>an expression, just a disappointing record the Bears are almost
>certain not to reach.

For the benefit of folks not familiar with how the NFL works, teams
play a 16 game season. So, "six and ten" would be a losing record,
one that won't get the team even a sniff at the playoffs. In terms of
translation, a reference to the losing record, while less colorful
than the original, might get the point across better than a literal
translation would.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Dec 13 17:41:28 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:41:28 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021212180313.04a5aec0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.124128.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Perfect!  But Randolph's story has a particular resonance for me (and it
probably did for him too), because in my childhood in Minnesota our term
for 'shit' was in fact 'dish'.  But we used old catalogs, not rags. . . .

Was this use of 'dish' in the vocabularies of any of the rest of you oldtimers?

At 06:33 PM 12/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>> >BUT - I cannot say "dishcloth." It's not English. "Dishrag" is it.
>>
>>While I cannot say these are my preferences, they were so for my father
>>(born in Missouri with some probable connections to Kentucky, and
>>raised in Kansas.  I know both of these terms from my father's speech
>>but prefer dishcloth to dishrag ....
>
>Vance Randolph: a Missouri (Ozarks) story:
>
><<One time there was a young farmer had some folks come over to his place
>for supper.
>
>.... the baby come a-crawling out on the floor, and you could see where he
>has shit all over himself. ... the man spoke right up. "Marthy," says he,
>"fetch the dishrag, and wipe that young-un's ass. If there's one thing I
>can't stand, it's nastiness!"
>
>.... They didn't go there for supper no more ....>>
>
>I grew up (in Detroit) with "dishrag" ... and "washrag" ... and "dustrag"
>.... and even "do-rag" (for the [hair]do). [My folks would not have endorsed
>"snot-rag" = "handkerchief" however.]
>
>But no "dishrag" for me any more, since I read this story.
>
>-- Doug Wilson


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Dec 13 17:57:14 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:57:14 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.125714.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Footnote:  I still can't say "dish the dirt."
----------
Perfect!  But Randolph's story has a particular resonance for me (and it
probably did for him too), because in my childhood in Minnesota our term
for 'shit' was in fact 'dish'.  But we used old catalogs, not rags. . . .

Was this use of 'dish' in the vocabularies of any of the rest of you oldtimers?

At 06:33 PM 12/12/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>> >BUT - I cannot say "dishcloth." It's not English. "Dishrag" is it.
>>
>>While I cannot say these are my preferences, they were so for my father
>>(born in Missouri with some probable connections to Kentucky, and
>>raised in Kansas.  I know both of these terms from my father's speech
>>but prefer dishcloth to dishrag ....
>
>Vance Randolph: a Missouri (Ozarks) story:
>
><<One time there was a young farmer had some folks come over to his place
>for supper.
>
>.... the baby come a-crawling out on the floor, and you could see where he
>has shit all over himself. ... the man spoke right up. "Marthy," says he,
>"fetch the dishrag, and wipe that young-un's ass. If there's one thing I
>can't stand, it's nastiness!"
>
>.... They didn't go there for supper no more ....>>
>
>I grew up (in Detroit) with "dishrag" ... and "washrag" ... and "dustrag"
>.... and even "do-rag" (for the [hair]do). [My folks would not have endorsed
>"snot-rag" = "handkerchief" however.]
>
>But no "dishrag" for me any more, since I read this story.
>
>-- Doug Wilson


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Dec 13 18:45:16 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:45:16 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021213125638.01bd24a8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.134516.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Footnote:  I still can't say "dish the dirt."
>----------
>Perfect!  But Randolph's story has a particular resonance for me (and it
>probably did for him too), because in my childhood in Minnesota our term
>for 'shit' was in fact 'dish'.  But we used old catalogs, not rags. . . .
>
>Was this use of 'dish' in the vocabularies of any of the rest of you
>oldtimers?
 ~~~~~~~~~
I can't remember ever hearing this. I'm wondering has it tainted other uses
of "dish," too?  Was it thought of as a euphemism?  So many euphemisms
retain the stinks of their illegitimate employment when back in their old
jobs.
A. Murie


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Dec 13 19:02:27 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:02:27 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <l03130302ba1fd8fdde9d@[12.107.141.241]>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.140227.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Love that "stinks."  In fact, I've never brought up our old 'dish" usage in
polite society, since I've always assumed it was narrowly regional and
maybe even just my family's euphemism (but why 'dish'?).  But now I suspect
this was Randolph's meaning in Missouri, too, so it may be more widespread
than I thought?

At 01:45 PM 12/13/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >Footnote:  I still can't say "dish the dirt."
> >----------
> >Perfect!  But Randolph's story has a particular resonance for me (and it
> >probably did for him too), because in my childhood in Minnesota our term
> >for 'shit' was in fact 'dish'.  But we used old catalogs, not rags. . . .
> >
> >Was this use of 'dish' in the vocabularies of any of the rest of you
> >oldtimers?
>  ~~~~~~~~~
>I can't remember ever hearing this. I'm wondering has it tainted other uses
>of "dish," too?  Was it thought of as a euphemism?  So many euphemisms
>retain the stinks of their illegitimate employment when back in their old
>jobs.
>A. Murie


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Fri Dec 13 19:18:55 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:18:55 -0600
Subject: Six and ten
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.131855.0600.>

Laurence Horn wrote:

>
> ...while their home stadium (Soldiers' Field in Chicago) is being
> rehabbed),

Oddly, it's Soldier Field, not Soldiers' Field. Maybe someone knows the
story behind this, anyone?


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Dec 13 19:32:12 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:32:12 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021213135802.01bcb218@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.143212.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In fact, I've never brought up our old 'dish" usage in
>polite society, since I've always assumed it was narrowly regional and
>maybe even just my family's euphemism (but why 'dish'?).

Back-slang, I think: "shit" > "tish", > "dish" because it's recognizable.
I've never encountered this one myself, but sometimes the parents might
encode things this way so the kiddies won't learn impolite words.

>But now I suspect this was Randolph's meaning in Missouri, too, so it may
>be more widespread than I thought?

Randolph is quoting a story told in 1951 by someone who claims he heard it
ca. 1935. There is no suggestion of this double-entendre in the story as
published, so IF it was there "way back when" I believe it was lost and
went right by Randolph. The central point of the story was the irony in
"can't stand nastiness", as I read it. In the story as published the dinner
guests look askance at the dishes.

-- Doug Wilson


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Fri Dec 13 20:40:24 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 12:40:24 -0800
Subject: Six and ten
In-Reply-To: <000701c2a2c7$4d643680$c8ded0d9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.124024.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would bet local channels six and ten.

Ed

--- Jan Ivarsson TransEdit <jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST>
wrote:
> A translator's problem:
>
> A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has
> bought a dish antenna because he thinks that the
> Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has paid 4000 $
> for the dish and is deceived. He says:
> "I spent four grand for the dish.
> And what do I get? Six and ten!"
>
> My question is: What does he mean by "six and ten"?
>
> Jan Ivarsson, TransEdit
> Translator, Subtitler
> jan.ivarsson at transedit.st
> http://www.transedit.st


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Dec 13 20:07:57 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:07:57 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.150757.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

flanigan at OHIOU.EDU,Net writes:

>Was this use of 'dish' in the vocabularies of any of the rest of you
>oldtimers?

Nope!  But, I was several hundred miles south and east.

Regards,
David Barnhart


From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET  Fri Dec 13 21:21:32 2002
From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:21:32 -0500
Subject: Off List Request
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.162132.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Could you ask your language gurus about this word? It appears in very
old deeds as a landmark ("to the rattlebox on the Tennessee River"). A
man I talked with yesterday thought it might have been a box hung on a
rope that would carry someone across the river. a technique later used
by linemen.  I always envisioned a noise maker that might call the
ferryman. But, we could both be wrong."


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Fri Dec 13 21:37:36 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:37:36 -0500
Subject: Rattlebox -OT
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021213133344.0416a5d8@66.36.96.30>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.163736.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's a poisonous plant isn't it? My recollection is rattleweed, but it
could be the same thing, no? Maybe he's talking about a particularly large
crop of the stuff. Just a VERY wild guess.


Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Dec 13 21:40:10 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:40:10 -0500
Subject: Rattlebox
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.164010.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        This may refer to the rattlebox or Chinese wisteria (sesbania punicea), a small tree about 12 to 15 feet in height.  Trees were often used as landmarks in old deeds, though I suppose a tall, long-lived tree like an oak would have been a better choice.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: DAK [mailto:buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET]
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 4:22 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Off List Request


"Could you ask your language gurus about this word? It appears in very
old deeds as a landmark ("to the rattlebox on the Tennessee River"). A
man I talked with yesterday thought it might have been a box hung on a
rope that would carry someone across the river. a technique later used
by linemen.  I always envisioned a noise maker that might call the
ferryman. But, we could both be wrong."


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 13 23:49:01 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 18:49:01 EST
Subject: Rattlebox
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.184901.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The new volume of DARE has a whole column on "rattlebox." The word designates
ten different kinds of plants: "any of various plants whose seed vessels
rattle when dry." All ten are explained in detail. - Allan Metcalf


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Dec 14 02:12:44 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 21:12:44 -0500
Subject: Fwd(2): NYU meeting of ILA 12/14
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.211244.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> International Linguistic Association

>

>  Rudolf P. Gaudio

>  Department of anthropology, purchase college, SUNY

>

>  THE POLITICAL ECONOMY OF CASUAL CONVERSATION,

>  or  WHY WE PAY TO TALK AT STARBUCKS

>
> This paper examines how so-called casual conversational practices in
>the

> contemporary United States are constrained and structured in terms of
>where,

> when, how, and with whom people choose and are able to interact
>socially.

> The focus of my analysis is the middle-class sociolinguistic practice
>of

> "coffeetalk"-a term I have borrowed from U.S. popular culture to
>signal the

> naturalized conflation of conversation with the commercialized
>consumption

> of coffee, space and other commodities.  My discussion of coffeetalk

> involves a number of research methods, including: critical analyses of
>the

> marketing rhetoric of coffeehouse corporations; informal interviews
>with

> coffeehouse owners, employees and patrons; and my own observations as a

> "native" participant in coffeetalk and other commodified modes of

> middle-class social interaction.  By situating coffeetalk within its

> spatial, temporal and social contexts, my analysis challenges the
>claim put

> forth by some sociolinguists that ("ordinary") conversation is a

> "naturally-occurring" phenomenon that is ontologically prior to other
>modes

> of talk.  My aim is to demonstrate how seemingly ordinary
>conversational

> practices are implicated in the political, economic and
>cultural-ideological

> processes of global capitalism, as symbolized by the increasingly
>ubiquitous

> Starbucks Coffee Company.

>

> Saturday, December 14, 2002  11 am



> New York University (room number will be posted in lobby)

>

> 100 Washington Square East (Northeast Corner of Washington Square Park)

>

> PLEASE POST

>
>Johanna Woltjer
>jwoltjer at earthlink.net


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Sat Dec 14 03:43:09 2002
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 21:43:09 -0600
Subject: Soldier Field Was Re: Six and ten
In-Reply-To: <p04320404ba1fc2f15e35@[130.132.245.217]>
Message-ID: <FRI.13.DEC.2002.214309.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>while their home stadium (Soldiers' Field in Chicago) is being rehabbed),

Rehabbed?! I'm afraid ruined is more like it. The extension of the
bleachers above the old rim looks, as more than critic has put it,
like a toilet bowl.

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sat Dec 14 05:08:17 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:08:17 -0500
Subject: Jobs in Lit and Languages Down 20 Percent
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.000817.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/14/education/14PROF.html

"Listings for academic jobs in literature and languages ? a key
barometer of staff positions in colleges and universities ? are off 20
percent, the Modern Language Association of America said. It is the
first decline since 1995 and the largest decline in about a decade."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 14 11:07:51 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 06:07:51 EST
Subject: OED's latest update
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.060751.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Attached is the OED's latest update.
   I guess "lebkuchen" and "Pad Thai" are both no "boxercise."

Barry Popik


Subj:   OED Online December update
Date:   12/14/2002 5:09:40 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:   <A HREF="mailto:onlinesubscriptions at oup.co.uk">onlinesubscriptions at oup.co.uk</A>
To: <A HREF="mailto:bapopik at aol.com">bapopik at aol.com</A>
Sent from the Internet (Details)



Dear Barry Popik

We are pleased to announce that the latest quarterly update to OED Online is
now available at www.oed.com.

EXPLORE OVER 2200 NEW AND REVISED WORDS...
The latest alphabetical range to be revised is MONO to MOTRIX  (see
http://www.oed.com/public/help/Dict/Quarterly/0212.htm for details).  This
update throws several hats into the ring, including the MORIAN (a
16th-century brimmed helmet), the MORTIER (a cap of office worn by various
French officials), the MONTERA (the black cap worn by a bullfighter) - not to
be confused with a MONTERO (a hunter's cap with ear flaps) - and of course
the MORTARBOARD.

CHECK OUT THE LATEST BUZZ WORDS...
The new OED Online update also covers a wide range of new vocabulary -
everything from FAMILY CREDIT to TAX-AND-SPEND, from BOXERCISE to
SNOWBOARDING, from DOWNSHIFTING to UPSIZING, and from BOOKMARK (in the
computer sense) to SCREENSHOT, SCREEN SAVER and SCROLL BAR.
The complete list of out-of-sequence new entries is available at
http://www.oed.com/public/help/Dict/Quarterly/0212a.htm.

QUICK REFERENCE GUIDE...
Our new revised Quick Reference Guide is now available in PDF format at
http://www.oed.com/public/pdfs/Quickref.pdf.

GET THE MOST OUT OF OED ONLINE...
The comprehensive and user-friendly help text available at
http://dictionary.oed.com/help/ demonstrates the many ways in which you can
use OED Online.  A step-by-step tour is available at http://www.oed.com/tour.
 In addition, we have a Powerpoint demonstration showing the key features of
the service. Let me know if you would like us to send you this demo.

NEW IN THE OED ARCHIVES...
Facsimiles of the three editions of the Appeal to the English-Speaking and
English-Reading Public by James Murray (the founding editor of the OED) have
been added to the archive section of the OED website, together with the first
ever call for contributions from American readers by George P. Marsh
(http://www.oed.com/public/archive/Requests/Requests_intro.htm).  You can
explore the full range of archive material at
http://www.oed.com/public/archive/.

NEW ISSUE OF OED NEWS...
The December issue of OED News is now available at
http://www.oed.com/public/news/0212.htm and can be downloaded as a PDF file.
 Highlights include articles on the expanding coverage of Canadian English,
and the way in which the Internet has transformed the work of OED
lexicographers.
In this month's Appeal, we are asking if anyone can help us find earlier
examples of the use of a variety of words and phrases - for example, did
anyone suffer from a "dead leg" before 1987, and could a dirty child be
described as a "mucky pup" before 1984?  If you can help, please e-mail
oed3 at oup.co.uk.

If you have any queries about OED Online, please don't hesitate to contact
support at oed.com.

Regards
Susanna Lob
Sales and Marketing Director, Online Products


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 14 11:28:51 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 06:28:51 EST
Subject: Going Postal & Going Coastal, Dream Team in OED
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.062851.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   After a quick browse:

GOING POSTAL--OED finally added this piece of slang, years after it's become,
as WIRED would say, "expired."  The first citation appears to be from Gareth
Branwyn's column in WIRED.
   I've also heard "going coastal" in basketball.  It's when a player grabs a
rebound at one end, dribbles to the other end, and goes "coast-to-coast" for
the score.

DREAM TEAM--OED added 1935, from the NEW YORK TIMES.  I think I recently
posted 1934.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sat Dec 14 12:36:50 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 07:36:50 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Word of the Year for Elementary Students
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.073650.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Considering the recent thread about teaching language in schools beyond
parts of speech, I thought everyone might want to cheer this teacher
on, and perhaps answer her questions as well.

D?but du message r?exp?di? :

> De: Roberta524 at aol.com
> Date: Fri 13 Dec 2002  19:36:05 America/New_York
> ?: gbarrett at americandialect.org
> Objet: No Subject
>
> Hello!
>
> Last year I read when your organization chose a word of the year.  I
> thought
> it would be a great lesson with my fifth graders.  Somehow I got a
> list of
> the words of the entire century - was that from your organization as
> well?  I
> somehow lost the source of it.  I think I had read that the
> organization went
> back through history to choose words.  Was that your organization?  If
> so,
> while go through the list, I noticed "Ms." for 1952.  Also, "D-Day"
> for 1918.
>  Can you tell me why since we normally associates those two words with
> much
> later decades.
>
> Oh, last year I did the lesson after you had chosen the word.  This
> year I am
> doing it beforehand to see if anyone picks the word your group
> chooses.  A
> lot of kids chose "Iraq" although I don't think you have ever chosen a
> place
> that is a proper noun.  One of my colleagues thinks it will be DVD
> while I
> think it will be "weapons of mass destruction."
>
> Anyway, if you could answer my questions, I appreciate it.  Thank you.
>
> Roberta


From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET  Sat Dec 14 14:09:47 2002
From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 09:09:47 -0500
Subject: RATTLEBOX
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.090947.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks to all who replied, but we're obviously going to have
to try harder <!>.  ( The question is from a historian who also
writes a weekly nature column.)

==========================================
You're right! I can say pretty definitively that the reference
was not to a plant, especially not to an exotic species.
-----Original Message-----
From: buchmann at bellsouth.net
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: rattlebox / 2
I'M NOT CERTAIN ALL THIS
PLANT LIFE IS WHAT YOU
NEED. I'LL KEEP LOOKING.
-----Original Message-----
> Could you ask your language gurus about this word? It appears in very
> old deeds as a landmark ("to the rattlebox on the Tennessee River"). A
> man I talked with yesterday thought it might have been a box hung on a
> rope that would carry someone across the river. a technique later used
> by linemen.  I always envisioned a noise maker that might call the
> ferryman. But, we could both be wrong.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 14 14:33:03 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 09:33:03 -0500
Subject: Barry Popik in Safire Column
In-Reply-To: <B7E4F564-0F60-11D7-A97D-0003931D8244@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.093303.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

William Safire's "On Language" column in tomorrow's New York Times
Magazine mentions Barry Popik as discovering the earliest known usage of
"G.O.P."  Congratulations to Barry for this well-earned recognition.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 14 15:28:42 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 10:28:42 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <msg57490.thr-3702f8fb.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.102842.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:07 PM -0500 12/13/02, Barnhart wrote:
>flanigan at OHIOU.EDU,Net writes:
>
>>Was this use of 'dish' in the vocabularies of any of the rest of you
>>oldtimers?
>
>Nope!  But, I was several hundred miles south and east.
>
Nor for me, in New York (if I count as an oldtimer).

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 14 16:09:52 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:09:52 -0500
Subject: Six and ten
In-Reply-To: <20021213204024.6646.qmail@web20413.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.110952.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:40 PM -0800 12/13/02, Ed Keer wrote:
>I would bet local channels six and ten.
>
>Ed


I'll take the bet.  I'm sure it was a reference to the Bears'
projected best-possible (or projected) record.  Note that this is
plausibly a written rendering of a spoken statement; the "six and
ten" may be a misleading representation for what would more normally
be transcribed as "6-10".

Larry

>
>--- Jan Ivarsson TransEdit <jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST>
>wrote:
>>  A translator's problem:
>>
>>  A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has
>>  bought a dish antenna because he thinks that the
>>  Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has paid 4000 $
>>  for the dish and is deceived. He says:
>>  "I spent four grand for the dish.
>>  And what do I get? Six and ten!"
>>
>>  My question is: What does he mean by "six and ten"?
>>
>>  Jan Ivarsson, TransEdit
>>  Translator, Subtitler
>>  jan.ivarsson at transedit.st
>>  http://www.transedit.st
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
>http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 14 16:22:00 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:22:00 -0500
Subject: New (to me) folk etymology:  type-o
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.112200.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From a message to the forensic linguistics e-mail list today:
=============
All,
in my response to Roger, I don't know how the exclamation marks (!)
got in there. I assume they are type-o's but they are not anywhere on
the keyboard near where I was typing.

Part of the problem with this study was that they!took 18 criteria:

but the results were pro!mising.
=============
A check on google (actually,
http://www.google.com/advanced.group.search) turned up this from
alt.rock-n-roll.metal.death:

=============
Usually the music a band creates is important to me, but sometimes it is
downplayed by sleeves with a lot of type-o's. It just seems to show a
side of carelessness. For example- In Flames- Colony. A whole lot of
them! What are other metal albums with a ridiculous amount of type-o's?
==============

The search is complicated by the prevalence of hits for the blood
type O, but I'm sure there's a passel more out there, including a
number from glass-house-dwelling purists upset at the guilty
parties...


================
From: George Smaragdis
Subject: TYPE O's
Newsgroups: rec.music.beatles
Date: 1997/02/04

I beg you check your mail before you send it.Why do you insist on
writing crap like "cont doit" when you can simply type "Can't do
it"?That's what's elementary for.Get off it!


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 14 16:21:30 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:21:30 EST
Subject: Word of the Year for Elementary Students
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.112130.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Roberta,
  Thanks for your message! Here is the explanation.
  In 1990 the American Dialect Society began choosing words of the year,
looking back on the year gone by. You can find a complete list of our choices
at our website,

http://americandialect.org/woty.html

We will choose words for 2002 at our meeting Januray 3, 2003. Look for an
announcement on our website soon after that.

For earlier years, you were able to find words because of a book I wrote with
David Barnhart, now available in paperback:

America in So Many Words by Allan Metcalf and David Barnhart. Boston:
Houghton Mifflin, 1999. ISBN 0-618-00270-7.

This goes back to the first English-speaking settlements in North America and
has a word for almost every year since then. It not only tells the word but
tells its story, and tells why we chose that word for that year. You can
order the book from your local bookstore or an online bookseller.

If you go to amazon.com, you can see the full index, which lists all our
choices of words of the year from the 1600s to the end of the 20th century.

- Allan Metcalf


From k_sirah at HOTMAIL.COM  Sat Dec 14 17:04:06 2002
From: k_sirah at HOTMAIL.COM (Casey :-))
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 17:04:06 +0000
Subject: Please Remove me from the Listserv
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.170406.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20021214/82b2d9df/attachment.htm>

From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 14 18:17:06 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:17:06 -0500
Subject: Going Postal (Feb. 1993 WIRED?)
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.131706.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Do I read the OED entry correctly?  "Going Postal" is from a February 1993 edition of WIRED?
   The NYPL record seems to indicate that WIRED began in May 1993.  I'm re-checking it right now.  Perhaps a WIRED person is online here.
   Also, the infamous shootings by Jarvis were in April 1993.
   The online LOS ANGLES TIMES, in a year-end roundup on 31 December 1993, pg. 1, refers to "going postal."


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sat Dec 14 18:33:06 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:33:06 -0500
Subject: Going Postal (Feb. 1993 WIRED?)
In-Reply-To: <346A026B.01BA9379.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.133306.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2002 at 01:17:06PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Do I read the OED entry correctly?  "Going Postal" is from a
>February 1993 edition of WIRED?

No, it's February 1994; we found this out too late to get the
correction in.

> The NYPL record seems to indicate that WIRED began in May
>1993.  I'm re-checking it right now.  Perhaps a WIRED person
>is online here.

No, the first issue of Wired is just called the "Premier
Issue," with no indication of date within 1993 in the issue
itself, but it was later referred to as March/April. (You
can see this at wired.com, for example.)

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Dec 14 19:26:33 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:26:33 -0700
Subject: Exposure to language --> "dish"
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.122633.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The discussion of "dish" (which I've never heard either, but then in South
Texas we lived in a different world) reminded me of a question my mother
asked recently when she had to provide a "stool sample" to the doctor:
"Why stool?" Because the toilet is like a sort of stool one sits on? I
assume that this term is not regionally limited.

        Rudy


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 14 20:12:02 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:12:02 -0500
Subject: Going Postal (Feb. 1993 WIRED?)
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.151202.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   So the LOS ANGELES TIMES of 31 December 1993 is the first citation?

Barry "Rodney Dangerfield" Popik


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 14 20:31:56 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:31:56 -0500
Subject: First English citation of "autism" (August 1912)
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.153156.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   This is important to me.  I have an autistic nephew.
   OED's first English citation of "autism" is the AMERICAN JOURNAL of INSANITY, Vol. LXIX, pg. 879.  A date of 1912 is given.
   I re-checked this:

AMERICAN JOURNAL OF INSANITY
VOLUME 69
Number 5
April 1913
Pg. 873:
   AUTISTIC THINKING*
   By PROF. E. BLEULER
   Director Psychiatric Cinic, University of Zurich
(...)
*Address delivered at the opening exercises of the Henry Phipps Psychiatric Clinic, The Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, Md., April 16-18, 1913.

   Oops!
   There is no doubt that Bleurer coined "autism," but we have a wrong date here.
   I looked in the NEW YORK STATE HOSPITALS BULLETIN, February 1912, pg. 481, "AFFECTIVITY, SUGGESTIBILITY, PARANOIA" by E. Bleuler and Charles Ricksher, but "autism" wasn't found in his very long article.
   However--

N. Y. STATE HOSPITALS BULLETIN
Vol. V, No. 2
August 1912
Pg. 238:
   REVIEW OF BLEULER'S SCHIZOPHRENIA.*
   By DR. AUGUST HOCH
(...)
*"Handbuch der Psychiatrie."  Herausgegeben von Professor Dr. G. Aschaffenburg.  Spezieller Teil, 4 Abteilung, 1 Halfte.  "Dementia Praecox oder Gruppe der Schizophrenien." Leipzig und Wien: Franz Deuticke, 1911.
Pg. 240:
   He also mentions abnormalities of the affective life, particularly a more or less extensive loss of interest, and that which he calls by a very good term "autism," that is, the tendency to turn away from the outside world, or that which we have called shut-in tendencies.  He also mentions other features, but these are the most important.
Pg. 253:
   A difficult subject is _autism_.  By autism Bleuler means that which we have called the shut-in tendency, the more or less complete shutting out of the environment, or, at any rate, all that which does not correspond to the wishes.  It may be so marked that the patients even shut all sensory impressions, close their eyes and ears, make their body as small as possible by crouching.  Bleuler regards this autism as a secondary phenomenon, and looks upon it as one of the results of his association disorder, whereas the autistic thinking is the day dreaming, the thinking without reference to reality.  This autistic thinking flourishes in schizophrenia.  The normal person includes in his logical operations more or less everything of his experience, past and present, which has a bearing, irrespective of it emotional value.  Bleuler thinks that the schizophrenic defect in logic makes the exclusion of a great many external and internal facts possible, and thus gives sway to a tendency which we all have, namely, to live in fancies which suit us, (Pg. 254) something which we indulge in but do not allow to influence our conduct, but which in the schizophrenic assumes the value of reality.
Pg. 256:
   _Automatisms_ are put on the same level as hallucinations, that is to say, are looked upon as intrusions into consciousness of split-off complexes, whereas mannerisms are essentially the same as Freud's _Symptomhandlungen_.


From garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Dec 14 20:43:29 2002
From: garethb2 at EARTHLINK.NET (Gareth Branwyn)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:43:29 -0500
Subject: Going Postal (Feb. 1993 WIRED?)
In-Reply-To: <3B298E83.6F46C9B1.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.154329.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It was definitely in significant (online) usage by the time it made it
into the Jargon Watch column. Unfortunately, magazines (being "dead
tree," not "way new," journalism) are produced months ahead of time. I
actually received the first submission of the term in early Nov. of
'93. Here's that message (FWIW):


Subj:  going  postal                         93-11-07 07:32:01 EST
From:  KenwardB
Posted on: America Online

Heard this from COLRuth.... "going postal", of course, just totally
losing it and/or killing everything you see...

Kenward "not yet postal" B


If memory serves, KenwardB and COLRuth were participants on the bOING
bOING conference I moderated on AOL (bOING bOING was a geek culture
print zine for which I was Senior Editor) . The term was in fairly
common usage in the bb Conf. (and related conferences: Mondo 2000 and
the virtual reality conf.).

Gareth


From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU  Sat Dec 14 20:45:14 2002
From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 22:45:14 +0200
Subject: Going Postal (Feb. 1993 WIRED?)
In-Reply-To: <20021214183306.GA23543@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.224514.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An interesting piece of word trivia about the first issue of Wired -
the word 'Internet' only showed up once in the premier issue, and it
was in a fake e-mail address in Nicholas  Negroponte's column. He
signed it with the e-mail address nicholas at internet, which is not a
valid e-mail address. Kind of interesting for a magazine that would
go on to become synonymous with the culture of the Internet boom.

Philip Trauring

At 1:33 PM -0500 12/14/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Sat, Dec 14, 2002 at 01:17:06PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>>  Do I read the OED entry correctly?  "Going Postal" is from a
>>February 1993 edition of WIRED?
>
>No, it's February 1994; we found this out too late to get the
>correction in.
>
>>  The NYPL record seems to indicate that WIRED began in May
>>1993.  I'm re-checking it right now.  Perhaps a WIRED person
>>is online here.
>
>No, the first issue of Wired is just called the "Premier
>Issue," with no indication of date within 1993 in the issue
>itself, but it was later referred to as March/April. (You
>can see this at wired.com, for example.)
>
>Jesse Sheidlower
>OED


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 14 22:28:44 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 17:28:44 -0500
Subject: Going Postal (Feb. 1993 WIRED?)
In-Reply-To: <20021214183306.GA23543@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.172844.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 14, 2002 at 01:17:06PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> > Do I read the OED entry correctly?  "Going Postal" is from a
> >February 1993 edition of WIRED?
>
> No, it's February 1994; we found this out too late to get the
> correction in.

OK, then the real earliest usage is likely the following:

1993 _St. Petersburg Times_ 17 Dec. (Nexis)  The symposium was sponsored
by the U.S. Postal Service, which has seen so many outbursts that in some
circles excessive stress is known as "going postal."

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Dec 15 01:01:59 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:01:59 -0500
Subject: Tomorrow's Safire "On Language" column
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.200159.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nice to see the credit for Barry.   I did notice one typo (or, if you
prefer, type-o) just afterward, a missing comma ("Barry Popik, an
etymologist has found..."), but (slightly) more substantively,
there's a bit of an overstatement earlier in the column.  Safire
draws the useful distinction between true acronyms and initialisms,
but overstates the case in describing the lead player of his column,
"G.O.P./GOP", as 'universally pronounced gee-oh-pee--by its
initials--and never as the word "gop", rhyming with "cop".'  This
claim immediately brought to mind Cole Porter's "You're the Top",
from _Anything Goes_, which I just confirmed includes the following
observations:

[BILLY]
You're a boom,
You're the dam at Boulder,
You're the moon,
Over Mae West's shoulder,
I'm the nominee of the G.O.P.

[RENO]
Or GOP!

[BILLY]
But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
You're the top!

So on at least this one occasion, albeit with poetic license, "GOP"
does indeed rhyme with "top", if not with "cop".

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Dec 15 01:14:26 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:14:26 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language --> "dish"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212141223180.14561-100000@bast.u.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.201426.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>The discussion of "dish" (which I've never heard either, but then in South
>Texas we lived in a different world) reminded me of a question my mother
>asked recently when she had to provide a "stool sample" to the doctor:
>"Why stool?" Because the toilet is like a sort of stool one sits on?

Essentially, yes, according to the OED:
STOOL
5a)  "a seat enclosing a chamber utensil; a commode; more explicitly
stool of ease. Also, a privy."
5b) "in phrases meaning 'the place of evacuation', now (without the)
the action of evacuating the bowels" (e.g. "straining at stool")
5c)  "the action of evacuating the bowels; an act of discharging f?ces"
5d)  "a discharge of f?cal matter of a specified colour, consistency,
etc.; the matter discharged"

Larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec 15 01:26:49 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:26:49 -0500
Subject: Namphrik and Ngapee (1874)
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.202649.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE LAND OF THE WHITE ELEPHANT:
TRAVELS, ADVENTURES AND DISCOVERIES IN BURMA, SIAM, CAMBODIE, AND COCHIN-CHINA
by Frank Vincent
New York:  Harper and Brothers
1874

   I read the 1884 book.  It has a 70-page supplement.  I'm sure the 1874 book is the same thing without the supplement, but I didn't have time to request it.
   OED has an 1854 "ngapee" under its entry for "balachong."  I don't know what the revised OED has planned for this "N" entry.  "Ngapee" is from Burma.


Pg. 15:  The condiment _ngapee_, for which there is a very great demand, is made of preserved fish, fish which has arrived at that epicurean stage termed "high;" it is a sort of paste which mixes with rice like the Indian sauce, _chutnee_.

Pg. 112:  We took a _chota hazree_, a little breakfast,...

Pg. 126:  ...a _prachadi_, sacred spire;...
(OED doesn't have "prachadi"?  I'm seeing it a lot in these books.  It's an architecture term--ed.)

Pg. 135:  All classes in Siam use a sauce called _namphrik_, which differes from the Burmese fish condiment _ngapee_, in that a greater variety of articles are employed in its composition; it also mixes with rice like the Indian _chutnee_, though it (Pg. 136--ed.) approximates more in appearance and flavour to this paste than does the Burmese _ngapee_.  The Siamese sauce is prepared, when all ingredients are at hand, "by bruising a quantity of red pepper in a mortar, to which are added _kapi_ (paste of shrimps and prawns), black pepper, garlic, and onions.  These being thoroughly mixed, a small quantity of brine and citron-juice is added.  Ginger, tamarinds, and gourd seeds are also employed."  That the _namphrik_ is "one of the most appetite-exciting condiments" I know myself by experience; it is also, though very hot and "high," a savoury and toothsome addition to the ordinary curry of simple meat, rice and gravy.

Pg. 267:  From the heads of the largest variety fish-oil is made, and from their bodies the condiment so highly prized by the Siamese, and styled by them _namphrik_.


(O.T. MISC.--I leave for a very long holiday trip to Kenya and Tanzania on Friday.  It's still on...I'll probably make my last Library of Congress trip of this year on Monday, when the NYPL is closed.  If you want anything, ask now--ed.)


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sun Dec 15 05:18:51 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 22:18:51 -0700
Subject: Exposure to language --> "dish"
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.221851.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry,

        Thanks for the confirmation. You can add this to your list of
transferred meanings, if you don't have it there already.

        Rudy

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:14:26 -0500
From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Exposure to language --> "dish"

>The discussion of "dish" (which I've never heard either, but then in South
>Texas we lived in a different world) reminded me of a question my mother
>asked recently when she had to provide a "stool sample" to the doctor:
>"Why stool?" Because the toilet is like a sort of stool one sits on?

Essentially, yes, according to the OED:
STOOL
5a)  "a seat enclosing a chamber utensil; a commode; more explicitly
stool of ease. Also, a privy."
5b) "in phrases meaning 'the place of evacuation', now (without the)
the action of evacuating the bowels" (e.g. "straining at stool")
5c)  "the action of evacuating the bowels; an act of discharging f?ces"
5d)  "a discharge of f?cal matter of a specified colour, consistency,
etc.; the matter discharged"

Larry

------------------------------


From sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM  Sun Dec 15 07:13:30 2002
From: sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM (Chuck Borsos)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 23:13:30 -0800
Subject: First English citation of "autism" (August 1912)
In-Reply-To: <199EEAB4.133F108E.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.14.DEC.2002.231330.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The contemporary usage of autism can be traced back to the
descriptions of Leo Kanner and Hans Asperger in the 1940's.  This
usage of autism is distinguished from Bleuler's usage, (although it
seems to have been derived from Bleuler).

Quoting Uta Firth, Autism: Explaining the Enigma, pg.7:

    "Any treatment of the topic of childhood Autism must start with
the pioneers Leo Kanner and Hans Asperger who, independently of each
other, first published accounts of this disorder.  These
publications, Kanner's in 1943 and Asperger's in 1944, contained
detailed case descriptions and also offered the first theoretical
attempts to explain the disorder.  Both authorities believed that
there was present from birth a fundamental disturbance which gave
rise to highly characteristic problems.
    It seems a remarkable coincidence that both chose the word
'autistic' in order to characterize the nature of the underlying
disturbance.  In fact, it is not really a coincidence, since the
label had already been introduced by the eminent psychiatrist Ernst
Bleuler in 1911.  It originally referred to a basic disturbance in
schizophrenia (another term coined by Bleuler),namely the narrowing
of relationships to people and to the outside world, a narrowing so
extreme that it seemed to exclude everything except the person's own
self.  This narrowing could be described as a withdrawal from the
fabric of social life into the self.  Hence the words 'autistic' and
'autism', from the Greek word autos meaning 'self'.  Today they are
applied almost exclusively to the developmental disorder that we here
call Autism, with a capital A.  I prefer to use Autism rather than
'early infantile autism' or 'childhood autism', terms which imply
some contrast to 'adult autism', and may wrongly suggest that one can
grow out of it."

So if Firth is correct on the date of Bleuler's German coinage, Barry
Popik's English citation comes just a year later.  And my memory is a
bit fuzzy here, but as I recall, the early literature on Autism
(developmental disorder) often called it 'childhood autism' to
distinguish it from the description of the schizophrenic state (as
suggested by Firth above).

Incidentally, I believe that Kanner and Asperger (as well as Rett,
who described Rett Syndrome, which is a degenerative condition
similar in some ways to Autism), were all Viennese trained, though
Kanner worked in the United States (at John Hopkins if I remember
right).

Chuck Borsos
Santa Cruz, CA
--


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Dec 15 16:09:36 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 11:09:36 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language --> "dish"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212142216360.26484-100000@bast.u.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.110936.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:18 PM -0700 12/14/02, Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>Larry,
>
>         Thanks for the confirmation. You can add this to your list of
>transferred meanings, if you don't have it there already.
>
>         Rudy
>
Definitely.   A nice addition to the club.  Seems to happen a lot
with euphemistic substitution, for obvious reasons.

L


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Sun Dec 15 17:57:12 2002
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:57:12 -0800
Subject: Six and ten
In-Reply-To: <p04320405ba210771767b@[130.132.245.174]>
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.095712.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ah, looks like I'm out some money. Perhaps I vcan get
it back when the Iggles win the Superbowl...

Ed

--- Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
> At 12:40 PM -0800 12/13/02, Ed Keer wrote:
> >I would bet local channels six and ten.
> >
> >Ed
>
>
> I'll take the bet.  I'm sure it was a reference to
> the Bears'
> projected best-possible (or projected) record.  Note
> that this is
> plausibly a written rendering of a spoken statement;
> the "six and
> ten" may be a misleading representation for what
> would more normally
> be transcribed as "6-10".
>
> Larry
>
> >
> >--- Jan Ivarsson TransEdit
> <jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST>
> >wrote:
> >>  A translator's problem:
> >>
> >>  A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has
> >>  bought a dish antenna because he thinks that the
> >>  Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has paid
> 4000 $
> >>  for the dish and is deceived. He says:
> >>  "I spent four grand for the dish.
> >>  And what do I get? Six and ten!"
> >>
> >>  My question is: What does he mean by "six and
> ten"?
> >>
> >>  Jan Ivarsson, TransEdit
> >>  Translator, Subtitler
> >>  jan.ivarsson at transedit.st
> >>  http://www.transedit.st
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up
> now.
> >http://mailplus.yahoo.com


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec 15 19:12:15 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 14:12:15 EST
Subject: Western Sandwich (1924); Singapore Sling (1930); Veal Oscar,
 Orloff
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.141215.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   A short roundup of some stuff I have here,

WESTERN SANDWICH
   28 January 1924, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. XX2:
   "A Western sandwich," said the customer.
   "A WES-TERN!" shouted the counterman, through a hole in the wall behind
him.
(DARE?--ed.)

SINGAPORE SLING
   6 April 1930, WASHINGTON POST, pg. S11:
   ,,,and mixed drinks from "flips of all kinds" through Singapore slings and
St. Luke's rickeys to "high balls of all kinds."

GRASSHOPPER PIE
   9 May 1963, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 43.
(Recipe only--ed.)

CARPETBAG STEAK
   1 December 1966, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 78.
(Recipe in Craig Claiborne story about Australia--ed.)

VEAL ORLOFF
   19 March 1964, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 36:
   One of Mrs. Darr's most widely praised dishes is a version of veal Orloff,
or braised veal with mushroom sauce.

VEAL OSCAR
   12 September 1971, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 19 (GIMBELS ad):
   8th floor--Tuesday, see Chef Armais Nording of New York's Scandia
Restaurant prepare Fillet of Veal Oscar.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Dec 15 19:18:08 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:18:08 -0600
Subject: Barry Popik in Safire Column
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.131808.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I'm delighted to see mention of Barry Popik in today's "On
Language" column by William Safire; the recognition is indeed
well-deserved.

    For those who might be interested in pursuing the early history of
"G.O.P." further, here's the bibliographical reference which Mr.
Safire consulted:
Barry Popik and Gerald Cohen; "Pushing the Date of G.O.P. (Grand Old
Party) Back By One Year,To 1883)." in: _Studies in Slang, Part VI_
(edited by Gerald Leonard Cohen and Barry Popik), Frankfurt a.M.:
Peter Lang, 1999, pp.63-71.

    The earliest (Dec. 1, 1883) attestation of G.O.P. was located by Barry.


Gerald Cohen



>At 9:33 AM -0500 12/14/02, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>William Safire's "On Language" column in tomorrow's New York Times
>Magazine mentions Barry Popik as discovering the earliest known usage of
>"G.O.P."  Congratulations to Barry for this well-earned recognition.
>
>Fred Shapiro



[excerpt from Safire column]:

>Because I intend to keep using G.O.P. in this space, here
>is its etymology (and you'd better not forget it, because I
>won't repeat it). The earliest recorded use of the
>unabbreviated, capitalized phrase was in The Cincinnati
>Commercial in 1876. (Soon after, Britain's prime minister,
>William Gladstone, was being called the Grand Old Man,
>initialized to G.O.M.) Barry Popik, an etymologist has
>found the earliest use so far in a Dec. 1, 1883, Washington
>weekly called The Hatchet, referring to a book that was ''a
>work of most rare cunning and of the utmost importance to
>the G.O.P.''


From msacks at WORLD.STD.COM  Sun Dec 15 20:07:06 2002
From: msacks at WORLD.STD.COM (Marc Sacks)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:07:06 -0500
Subject: mentor/mentee
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.150706.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've heard it. I don't like it, though, like Peter, I can certainly see
where it came from. But of course, going back further, there was nobody
named Less in Homer, so the analogy is limited.

Marc Sacks
msacks at world.std.com

Peter Richardson wrote:

>Has anyone heard _mentee_? The pattern is obvious (cf. lessor/lessee), but
>I wonder about the specific form. (Personally, I like manatee.)
>
>Thanks.
>
>Peter R.
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Dec 15 21:32:59 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 16:32:59 EST
Subject: Daddy Rock Me (1919); Convection Oven (1946) Brandy; Jalapeno
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.163259.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Another random roundup, as I clean my desk here and look for my "oyster
crackers" and figure out if estimated taxes are due December 16th or Janaury
15th.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MAN/DADDY ROCK ME (ROCK & ROLL)

   The November 2002 COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY was "MATERIAL FOR THE STUDY OF
_ROCK AND ROLL_."  There is the Trixie Smith song, "My Man Rocks Me (With One
Steady Roll)," which I think is 1922 or 1923.
   Of possible interest for an earlier (1919) sexual "rock" use is this, in
the NYPL and available digitally:

Call #  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/cM.C.+(Greenwich+Village+follies%2C+1919)/cm+c+greenwich+village+follies+1919/-5,-1,0,E/2browse">M.C. (Greenwich Village follies, 1919)</A>
Author  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aSloane%2C+A.+Baldwin+(Alfred+Baldwin)%2C+1872-1926./asloane+a+baldwin+alfred+baldwin+1872-1926/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Sloane, A. Baldwin (Alfred Baldwin), 1872-1926.</A>
Title   <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/tGreenwich+Village+follies+of+1919.+I+want+a+daddy+who+will+rock+me+to+sleep.+Vocal+score/tgreenwich+village+follies+of+1919+i+want+a+daddy+who+will+rock+me+to+sleep+vocal+score/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Greenwich Village follies of 1919. I want a daddy who will rock me to
sleep. Vocal score</A>
    I want a daddy who will rock me to sleep / lyric by Philip Bartholomae &
John Murray Anderson ; music by A. Baldwin Sloane.
Imprint New York : m. Witmark, c1919.


Click on the following to:  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/XI+want+a+daddy+who+will+rock%26l=%26m=%26SORT=D%26s=%26p=%26x=%26Da=%26Db=%26searchscope=1/XI+want+a+daddy+who+will+rock%26l=%26m=%26SORT=D%26s=%26p=%26x=%26Da=%26Db=%26searchscope=1/1,1,1,B/l856%26FF=XI+want+a+daddy+who+will+rock%261,,0,1,0">View digitized images</A>

LOCATION    CALL #  STATUS
  PerfArts-Music     M.C. (Greenwich Village follies, 1919)
Location    PerfArts-Music
Edition Operatic ed.
Descript    1 vocal score (5 p.) : ill. ; 32 cm.
Series  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/tTreasures+of+the+American+Performing+Arts%2C+1875-1923/ttreasures+of+the+american+performing+arts+1875-1923/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Treasures of the American Performing Arts, 1875-1923</A>
Music # 7355 M. Witmark
    16019-4 M. Witmark
Note    For voice and piano.
    Caption title.
    "The Bohemians (Inc.) Present The Greenwich Village Follies"--Cover.
    Also available in electronic form, digitized by The New York Public
Library.
Topics  Music
Subject <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/dRevues+--+Excerpts+--+Vocal+scores+with+piano./drevues+excerpts+vocal+scores+with+piano/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Revues -- Excerpts -- Vocal scores with piano.</A>
    <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/dSongs+(High+voice)+with+piano./dsongs+high+voice+with+piano/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Songs (High voice) with piano.</A>
Add'l name  <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aBartholomae%2C+Philip./abartholomae+philip/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Bartholomae, Philip, Lyricist.</A>
    <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/aAnderson%2C+John+Murray./aanderson+john+murray/-5,-1,0,B/browse">Anderson, John Murray, Lyricist.</A>
Alt title   First line of text: In nearly ev'ry play-house now-a-days.
    First line of chorus: I want a daddy who will rock me to sleep.
    <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/tThe+Greenwich+Village+Follies+of+1919./tgreenwich+village+follies+of+1919/-5,-1,0,B/browse">The Greenwich Village Follies of 1919.</A>
Donor   <A HREF="http://catnyp.nypl.org/search/mNational+Endowment+for+the+Arts+Millennium+Project./mnational+endowment+for+the+arts+millennium+project/-5,-1,0,B/browse">National Endowment for the Arts Millennium Project.</A>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
CONVECTION OVEN

   Does anyone have any date for this?...Not to be confused with "Dutch"
Oven, posted here previously.

   27 June 1946, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 42 classified ad:
   Thelco convection ovens, size 14, 1 precision electric oven, size 120.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BRANDY

JOURNAL OR MEMORABLE DESCRIPTION OF THE EAST INDIAN VOYAGE OF WILLIAM
YSBRANTZ BONTEKOE OF HOORN, COMPREHENDING MANY WONDERFUL AND PERILOUS
HAPPENINGS EXPERIENCED THEREIN;
BEGUN ON THE 18th OF DECEMBER 1618, AND  COMPLETED ON THE 16th NOVEMBER 1625
1646 (Dutch--ed.)
New York: Robert M. McBride & Company
1929

Pg. 37:  Thereby the brandy was set afire and flamed up out of the cask, the
heads of the vask burst and the burning brandy ran down into the ship where
the smith's coals lay.

Pg. 112:  ...a steady wind blows from half year to half year that is called
Monsoon...

(The "brandy" is of possible interest for the Dutch sources of the word, but
the 1646 Dutch and 1929 English dates are too late for an antedate that
"1618" would be--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
JALAPENO

   I'm going mad.  I even bought the book JALAPENO MADNESS (2001), but it was
no help at all, just a listing of web sites already seen.
   "Jalapeno" was NOT in this book:  FWIW, I'll show the MEXICO's agriculture
appendix, minus the botanical names.


THE REPUBLIC OF MEXICO
ITS AGRICULTURE, COMMERCE & INDUSTRIES
compiled and edited by Hermann Schnitzler
New York: Nicholas L. Brown
1924

Pg. 133 (QUERATARO):  Chile, another common products, yields 4,800 tons a
year, being sold partly in the shape of "chile verde" (green chili), partly
simply dried or baked in the sun, and some of it preserved in vinegar.  The
various species of chile are grown, viz.: "chile bolita" (capsicum
cordiforme), common chile (capsicum annum), "chile guajilla" (capsicum
longum), and "chile piquin" (capsicum annum cerasiforme).  The variety valled
"guajilla" also "tornachile" is the one that is generally preserved in
vinegar.

APPENDIX II
Pg. 603:
   _Edible Plants_
(...)
Ajo (garlic)
alcachofa (artichoke)
alverjon (common vetch)
apio (celery)
arroz (rice)
avena (corn)
Betabel (beet)
Cabbage
calabaza (calabash)
calabaza de castilla
camote (sweet potato)
cebada (barley)
cebolla (onion)
chayote
chicharo (pea)
chilacayote
chile bolita (chilli)
chile guajilla
chile piquin
colinabo (turnip)
Frijol (common bean)
Garbanzo (garavance or chickpea)
Pg. 604:
guacamote or yuca (yucca)
Haba (large bean)
Ixpengua
Jicama
jicama de agua
jinicuil
Lechuga (lettuce)
lenteja (lentil)
Madre del maiz
maiz cuarenteno (corn)
maiz de elote colorado
maiz de grano vestido
maiz de humedo
maiz de riego
maiz palomero
melon
Nabo (turnip)
ninfa
Papa (Irish potato)
pepino (cucumber)
pimiento
Rabano (radish)
romeritos
Tomate (tomato)
tomatillo
trigo (wheat)
Vainilla (vanilla), used for flavoring
verdolaga
Xaan or palma comun
Yuca (yucca)
Zanahoria (carrot)

Pg. 606:
   _Fruits_
Aguacate (alligator-pear)
aguames
anona
arbol de pan
bonete
bonete
bonete
cacao
cafe (coffee)
capomo
capulin
cardon
cerezo (cherry)
ciruela (plum)
ciruela
ciruela
coco (coconut)
coquito de aceite
chamal
chavacano
chicozapote
chirimoya
chirimoya (cherimoyer)
cuapinole
datil (date)
datil cimarron
frambuesa (raspberry)
fresa (strawberry)
garambullo
granada (pomegranate)
granadilla
granadita de china
granjeno
guamara
guanabana (custard apple)
guasima
higo (fig)
Pg. 607:
huamuchil
jarrilla
jicama
jicama de agua
jinicui
jojoba
lima (lime)
limon (lemon)
macallo
malon zapote
mamey (mammee)
mamey silvestre
mangle
mangle prieto
manzana (apple)
membrillo (quince)
morera (blackberry)
nanche
naranja (orange)
nogal (nut)
nogal de nuez grande
nogal de nuez chica
nopal de castillo
nopal duraznilla
olivo (olive)
papayo (papaw)
papayo
parota
parra (grape)
parra silvestre
peral (pear)
peyote
piche
pina (pineapple)
pina
pitahaya
pitahaya
platano chino
platano morado
platano tabasco (banana)
tamarindo (tamarind
Pg. 608:
tejocote
toronja (grapefruit)
zapote amarillo
zapote blanco (sapota)
zapote prieto
zapotillo or ziziacche


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Sun Dec 15 21:56:59 2002
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:56:59 -0800
Subject: mentor/mentee
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021209144451.20329G-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.135659.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The graduate students use it in the Linguistics Department at the
University of Washington. I know I didn't like it at first, but it's a
word that's needed...

Benjamin Barrett
Live from Tukwila

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Peter Richardson
Sent: Monday, 09 December, 2002 14:46

Has anyone heard _mentee_? The pattern is obvious (cf. lessor/lessee),
but I wonder about the specific form. (Personally, I like manatee.)

Thanks.

Peter R.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 16 01:41:55 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:41:55 -0500
Subject: Barry Popik in Safire Column
In-Reply-To: <p04310100ba22738c24f4@[131.151.65.136]>
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.204155.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:18 PM -0600 12/15/02, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>   I'm delighted to see mention of Barry Popik in today's "On
>Language" column by William Safire; the recognition is indeed
>well-deserved.
>
>    For those who might be interested in pursuing the early history of
>"G.O.P." further, here's the bibliographical reference which Mr.
>Safire consulted:
>Barry Popik and Gerald Cohen; "Pushing the Date of G.O.P. (Grand Old
>Party) Back By One Year,To 1883)." in: _Studies in Slang, Part VI_
>(edited by Gerald Leonard Cohen and Barry Popik), Frankfurt a.M.:
>Peter Lang, 1999, pp.63-71.
>
>    The earliest (Dec. 1, 1883) attestation of G.O.P. was located by Barry.
>
>Gerald Cohen
>
Any evidence of "GOP" rhyming with "top" outside of the Cole Porter
song?  (Not that we'd necessarily be able to tell.)

L


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Dec 16 02:33:36 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:33:36 -0600
Subject: Query: Why the plural in Spanish "Buenas dias," etc.? (OT)
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.203336.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    This is off topic, but perhaps someone on the list knows the
answer: Why does Spanish use the plural for Buenas dias (Good day),
Buenas tardes (Good afternoon) and Buenas noches (Good night)?  I
know of no other language that does this.

    Any help would be much appreciated.

Gerald Cohen


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 02:49:20 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 21:49:20 EST
Subject: Query: Why the plural in Spanish "Buenas dias," etc.? (OT)
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.214920.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/15/2002 9:35:16 PM Eastern Standard Time,
gcohen at UMR.EDU writes:

> Why does Spanish use the plural for Buenas dias (Good day),
>  Buenas tardes (Good afternoon) and Buenas noches (Good night)?

It's "Buenos dias" (acute accent on the i, "di/as") not "buenas".  "El di/a"
is one of the rare exceptions to the rule that a noun ending in -a is
feminine.

"Buenas noches" corresponds to both "good evening" and "good night" in
English, and unlike "good night" does not necessarily imply a farewell.

My Spanish-English dictionary lists the phrase "dejar a uno a buenos noches"
meaning "to leave one in the lurch".

     - Jim Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 03:00:52 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:00:52 -0500
Subject: Satee/Satay (1904, 1920); Oyster Crackers (1857)
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.220052.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SATEE/SATAY

   OED has 1934 for "satay."  This is one of the national dishes of the East Indies, but I didn't see it in early explorers' journals.


LETTERS OF A JAVANESE PRINCESS
by Raden Adjeng Kartini
translated from the original Dutch by
Agnes Louise Symmers
New York: Alfred A. Knopf
1920

Pg. 242:  And it was not the despised "nonas"* who did this, but white people of unmixed blood; educated, and brought up with every advantage.
*A half-breed, child of a native mother and European father.

Pg. 306 (August 10, 1904 letter):  Every time a goat or a sheep is butchered a tax of twenty cents is paid.  A Satee*-merchant who butchers two every day, must pay this tax, which amounts to one hundred and forty-four florins in the course of a year.
*Satee is a dish composed of meat strung on a stick and roasted.

---------------------------------------------------------------
OYSTER CRACKERS

   OED has 1873 for "oyster crackers."

   FRESH LEAVES by Fanny Fern, (New York: Mason brother, 1857), MOA-Michigan Books database, pg. 72:
   ...a basket of oyster crackers...

   21 December 1858, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 5 ad:
   Buy Bond's Celebrated Boston and Oyster Crackers for the Holidays.

(This ad possibly appeared earlier in the American Periodical Series.  I'll check that again when I buy another Columbia library pass next year--ed.)


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 16 03:07:57 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 19:07:57 -0800
Subject: Safire comma
In-Reply-To: <p04320400ba21830f8b46@[130.132.245.174]>
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.190757.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:

> Nice to see the credit for Barry.   I did notice one typo (or, if you
> prefer, type-o) just afterward, a missing comma ("Barry Popik, an
> etymologist has found..."), but (slightly) more substantively,

That second comma, the one after an appositive or even a relative clause,
seems to have been rejected wholesale by the media in general. The
sentence that Larry cites above reads as if the author were addressing
Barry directly, informing him that some etymologist has found...

Are pixels and electrons in such short supply these days?

Less substantively,

PR


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Mon Dec 16 03:11:24 2002
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 21:11:24 -0600
Subject: Barry Popik in Safire Column
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.211124.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Larry Horn asks if Barry or I found any evidence of "GOP" rhyming with
"top" outside of the Cole Porter song.  The answer for our article is
no, although I'll let Barry comment on whether he's found it anywhere
else.

    I wouldn't expect it though. Cole Porter's "GOP" (rhymes with "top")
arises from great exuberance, permitting Reno to pronounce "Gop" as
if it is a word that Billy has just spelled (gee-oh-pee). This is
nonsense arising from (and justified by) great exuberance.

    For lexical creativity deriving from exuberance, cf. Schiller's Ode to Joy,
which begins with "Joy, divine spark of the gods," and two lines down says
"Wir betreten feuertrunken/Himmlische dein Heiligtum." (literally:
"We enter drunk with fire/Oh heavenly one your sanctuary.")

     What interests me is feuertrunken ("drunk with fire").  Evidently
this is a mixed metaphor.  Joy has just been described as a spark.
Drinking and joy are usually connected with wine. Usually the mixing
of metaphors is a flaw to be avoided, but in this case it's
justified. The Ode to Joy is one happy poem!
Schiller seems to be saying: "Yes, I know I'm mixing metaphors, but
I'm in such an exuberant, exultant mood, I don't care; if joy is a
spark, let's get drunk on sparks."

     Btw, Beethoven took just the beginning of the poem for his Ninth Symphony.

Gerald Cohen


>From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Barry Popik in Safire Column
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>At 1:18 PM -0600 12/15/02, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>>   I'm delighted to see mention of Barry Popik in today's "On
>>Language" column by William Safire; the recognition is indeed
>>well-deserved.
>>
>>    For those who might be interested in pursuing the early history of
>>"G.O.P." further, here's the bibliographical reference which Mr.
>>Safire consulted:
>>Barry Popik and Gerald Cohen; "Pushing the Date of G.O.P. (Grand Old
>>Party) Back By One Year,To 1883)." in: _Studies in Slang, Part VI_
>>(edited by Gerald Leonard Cohen and Barry Popik), Frankfurt a.M.:
>>Peter Lang, 1999, pp.63-71.
>>
>>    The earliest (Dec. 1, 1883) attestation of G.O.P. was located by Barry.
>>
>>Gerald Cohen
>>
>Any evidence of "GOP" rhyming with "top" outside of the Cole Porter
>song?  (Not that we'd necessarily be able to tell.)
>
>L


>From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>Subject:      Tomorrow's Safire "On Language" column
>Comments: To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
>Nice to see the credit for Barry.   I did notice one typo (or, if you
>prefer, type-o) just afterward, a missing comma ("Barry Popik, an
>etymologist has found..."), but (slightly) more substantively,
>there's a bit of an overstatement earlier in the column.  Safire
>draws the useful distinction between true acronyms and initialisms,
>but overstates the case in describing the lead player of his column,
>"G.O.P./GOP", as 'universally pronounced gee-oh-pee--by its
>initials--and never as the word "gop", rhyming with "cop".'  This
>claim immediately brought to mind Cole Porter's "You're the Top",
>from _Anything Goes_, which I just confirmed includes the following
>observations:
>
>[BILLY]
>You're a boom,
>You're the dam at Boulder,
>You're the moon,
>Over Mae West's shoulder,
>I'm the nominee of the G.O.P.
>
>[RENO]
>Or GOP!
>
>[BILLY]
>But if, baby, I'm the bottom,
>You're the top!
>
>So on at least this one occasion, albeit with poetic license, "GOP"
>does indeed rhyme with "top", if not with "cop".
>
>Larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Dec 16 04:43:59 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:43:59 -0500
Subject: Barry Popik in Safire Column
In-Reply-To: <p04310104ba22ecec24e4@[131.151.64.249]>
Message-ID: <SUN.15.DEC.2002.234359.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Larry Horn asks if Barry or I found any evidence of "GOP" rhyming with
>"top" outside of the Cole Porter song.  The answer for our article is
>no, although I'll let Barry comment on whether he's found it anywhere
>else.
>
>    I wouldn't expect it though.

I have seen "GOP" as a full-fledged acronym in the form "Gopus, the
Elephant", a comedic constellation in a sky-map, probably in the "Harvard
Lampoon" or maybe "Mad" magazine ... several years back.

-- Doug Wilson


From scorn at PACIFIC.NET.AU  Mon Dec 16 10:14:20 2002
From: scorn at PACIFIC.NET.AU (Steve Cornelius)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:14:20 +1100
Subject: Barry Popik in Safire Column
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021215233912.0295e710@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.211420.1100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For those of us who are non-American English-speaking lurkers on this list,
can anyone take us back to basics and let us know why it's called the Grand
Old Party? Apologies if this ground has been covered before.

Regards
Steve Cornelius
Sydney, Australia


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 16 13:00:30 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:00:30 -0500
Subject: Earlier Example of "G.O.P."
In-Reply-To: <p04310100ba22738c24f4@[131.151.65.136]>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.080030.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 15 Dec 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote:

>     The earliest (Dec. 1, 1883) attestation of G.O.P. was located by Barry.

Here's an earlier example of "G.O.P.":

1882 _Washington Post_ 3 Nov. 2  The g.o.p. will try to deputy-marshal the
wicked Democrats of the old North State.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Dec 16 13:11:12 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:11:12 -0500
Subject: Oyster Crackers (1857)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.081112.0500.>

Barry P noted:

>>
OYSTER CRACKERS

   OED has 1873 for "oyster crackers."

   FRESH LEAVES by Fanny Fern, (New York: Mason brother, 1857), MOA-Michigan
Books database, pg. 72:
   ...a basket of oyster crackers...

   21 December 1858, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 5 ad:
   Buy Bond's Celebrated Boston and Oyster Crackers for the Holidays.

(This ad possibly appeared earlier in the American Periodical Series.  I'll
check that again when I buy another Columbia library pass next year--ed.)
<<

Let me add that, to my knowledge, this is an Americanism, or at least is
today.  The Brits I have checked with are unfamiliar with this food in the
UK.  At least it is not traditional fare, though maybe lately it has slipped
in.  Of course, they are most closely associated with chowder, which is an
American thing.

The most familiar brand of oyster crackers seems to be Westminster, made in
Vermont.


Frank Abate


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Dec 16 13:59:48 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:59:48 -0500
Subject: lexical vs. lexicographical
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.085948.0500.>

Larry H said:

>>
I see know that our apparent disagreement was largely over goals and
terminology.  What I do is research on lexical semantics and
pragmatics, which is a different enterprise from that of doing
lexicography per se.  In his original posting, Frank was deprecating
(ordinary) google as a tool for LEXICAL RESEARCH, which I take to
include what I do.  In the current post, he refers more specifically
to LEXICOGRAPHICAL RESEARCH, which is a more specific kettle of fish
(although a kettle in which I too like to angle from time to time).

So the disagreement is amicably resolved, and thanks to this thread I
now know about the very useful (to me) search engine at
http://www.google.com/advanced_group_search, so it's been a
constructive disagreement as these things go.
<<


You are right, Larry -- I used "lexical" too loosely, and should have said
"lexicographical" originally.  That is what I really meant.

Right, too, that this useful discussion led to a good outcome, on both
sides.

Frank Abate


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Mon Dec 16 14:16:01 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:16:01 -0000
Subject: Using the BNC
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.141601.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The British National Corpus has been mentioned as a good, if ageing (and of
course British) source of lexicographical information. It may be that I am
missing something, but my own experience of the Corpus is that while it
offers a wide range of material (albeit less slang than I might desire) and
its listings give a reference to a publication, as a three-letter/digit
abbreviation, e.g.

C8E The Buddha of suburbia. Kureishi, Hanif. London: Faber & Faber Ltd, 1990

what it does not do, however, is give a page number for the material cited.
It gives a page range (presumably those read for the Corpus), e.g. 'pp.
62-165' and the number of  's-units' and the total word count, but, as I
say, no page number as such. This, for my purposes, and I would imagine
those of other lexicographers, renders it more interesting than practically
helpful.

Always willing to confess ignorance, I am happy to stand corrected. As I
say, I may be missing something. If any user of the BNC can put me right -
or simply join in my regrets - than I would be most grateful.

Jonathon Green


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Mon Dec 16 14:26:47 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 09:26:47 -0500
Subject: Safire comma
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021215190517.10458C-100000@calvin.linfield. edu>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.092647.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It hasn't been rejected by the Times. Safire likes to use what the Times'
editors call "false titles." In my copy, and after my proof, the piece
read, "Etymologist Barry Popik..." Since the gurus at 43rd street wont let
him do this, they changed it to "Barry Popik, an etymologist..." and the
second comma was inadvertently left out by the copy editor in New York. I
rarely get to see the final proof down here in the little old DC bureau, so
I didn't have time to catch it.

Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times





At 07:07 PM 12/15/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>On Sat, 14 Dec 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> > Nice to see the credit for Barry.   I did notice one typo (or, if you
> > prefer, type-o) just afterward, a missing comma ("Barry Popik, an
> > etymologist has found..."), but (slightly) more substantively,
>
>That second comma, the one after an appositive or even a relative clause,
>seems to have been rejected wholesale by the media in general. The
>sentence that Larry cites above reads as if the author were addressing
>Barry directly, informing him that some etymologist has found...
>
>Are pixels and electrons in such short supply these days?
>
>Less substantively,
>
>PR


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Mon Dec 16 14:36:01 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:36:01 -0000
Subject: Using the BNC
In-Reply-To: <003301c2a50d$acceff40$ad00a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.143601.0000.>

Jonathon Green wrote:

> what it does not do, however, is give a page number for the
> material cited. It gives a page range (presumably those read for
> the Corpus), e.g. 'pp. 62-165' and the number of  's-units' and the
> total word count, but, as I say, no page number as such. This, for
> my purposes, and I would imagine those of other lexicographers,
> renders it more interesting than practically helpful.

I don't use it (I don't have access to it), but I do use the cut-down
CD-ROM version that was produced some years ago. My understanding is
that its great value, as with other corpora, lies in the opportunity
it gives to identify and rank collocations and to assess the relative
importance and frequency of various forms in a balanced image of one
regional type of English.

As others have mentioned, this is something that a search of Google
cannot so easily do, since there are all sorts of systemic biases in
the material that it indexes. Where Google scores over corpora,
however, is that it is a different kind of snapshot, one of current
English that is to a significant degree free from the strictures of
good taste and editing. I've found it immensely useful, for example,
when trying to judge whether a form has gained wide currency as a
folk etymology (chaise lounge, bare with me, without further adieux,
etc).


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 16 14:50:43 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 09:50:43 -0500
Subject: Oyster Crackers (1857)
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAEELFDGAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.095043.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:11 AM -0500 12/16/02, Frank Abate wrote:
>Barry P noted:
>
>>>
>OYSTER CRACKERS
>
>    OED has 1873 for "oyster crackers."
>
>    FRESH LEAVES by Fanny Fern, (New York: Mason brother, 1857), MOA-Michigan
>Books database, pg. 72:
>    ...a basket of oyster crackers...
>
>    21 December 1858, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 5 ad:
>    Buy Bond's Celebrated Boston and Oyster Crackers for the Holidays.
>
>(This ad possibly appeared earlier in the American Periodical Series.  I'll
>check that again when I buy another Columbia library pass next year--ed.)
><<
>
>Let me add that, to my knowledge, this is an Americanism, or at least is
>today.  The Brits I have checked with are unfamiliar with this food in the
>UK.  At least it is not traditional fare, though maybe lately it has slipped
>in.  Of course, they are most closely associated with chowder, which is an
>American thing.
>
>The most familiar brand of oyster crackers seems to be Westminster, made in
>Vermont.
>
And for me, they absolutely have to polygonal--I believe hexagonal,
if I'm counting sides correctly.  I don't know if this is equally
criterial for other respondents, though.

Larry


From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG  Mon Dec 16 16:20:44 2002
From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:20:44 -0400
Subject: Using the BNC
In-Reply-To: <003301c2a50d$acceff40$ad00a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.122044.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On 12/16/2002 10:16, Jonathon Green wrote the following:

>what it does not do, however, is give a page number for the material cited.
>It gives a page range (presumably those read for the Corpus), e.g. 'pp.
>62-165' and the number of  's-units' and the total word count, but, as I
>say, no page number as such. This, for my purposes, and I would imagine
>those of other lexicographers, renders it more interesting than practically
>helpful.

Traditionally, I suppose the main utility of page numbers was to allow
others to verify the existence and veracity of quotations without having to
wade through tens or hundreds of thousands of irrelevant words. But if
you're working with an electronic corpus, what's the point of page
numbers?  Anyone who wants to verify your claims can pull the word or
phrase in question up in a matter of seconds.

And sure, not everyone has access to the BNC, but not everyone has access
to the June 12, 1962 edition of the Bumford Times Herald, either.

Cheers,
Scott

_____________________________________________________________
Scott Sadowsky
Centro de Estudios Cognitivos, Universidad de Chile
sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org ? ssadowsk at icaro.dic.uchile.cl
_____________________________________________________________


From dave at WILTON.NET  Mon Dec 16 15:35:33 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 07:35:33 -0800
Subject: Using the BNC
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021216115455.0187fc28@66.36.96.30>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.073533.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting Scott Sadowsky <lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG>:

> Traditionally, I suppose the main utility of page numbers was to allow
> others to verify the existence and veracity of quotations without having to
> wade through tens or hundreds of thousands of irrelevant words. But if
> you're working with an electronic corpus, what's the point of page
> numbers?  Anyone who wants to verify your claims can pull the word or
> phrase in question up in a matter of seconds.
>
> And sure, not everyone has access to the BNC, but not everyone has access
> to the June 12, 1962 edition of the Bumford Times Herald, either.

But the page number is essential if you want to check the accuracy of the
electronic version. One has no assurance that the text wasn't altered when it
was digitized. Such changes happen often enough that it is not a trivial issue.
Depending on the importance of the quotation to your work, you may very much
want to go back and look at it in the original just to make sure.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Mon Dec 16 15:43:15 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:43:15 -0000
Subject: Using the BNC
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.154315.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Traditionally, I suppose the main utility of page numbers was to allow
>others to verify the existence and veracity of quotations without having to
>wade through tens or hundreds of thousands of irrelevant words.

My desire for page numbers is indeed, albeit in part, for the purpose of
obtaining citations without ploughing through much extraneous matter.

>But if you're working with an electronic corpus, what's the point of page
>numbers?  Anyone who wants to verify your claims can pull the word or
>phrase in question up in a matter of seconds.

As to the need for such references, they remain vital for 'historical'
lexicography, e.g. the OED, DARE, Jonathan Lighter's slang dictionary and my
own work in progress. The extent to which readers/users, even fellow
lexicographers, actually check them, is debatable, but the current style of
citation as included in this type of dictionary still requires their
appearance. Thus, if one is drawing on a corpus such as the BNC, such
references would be useful.

Jonathon Green


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 15:49:39 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:49:39 -0500
Subject: Flavor of the Month (1937)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.104939.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Greetings from the Library of Congress.

G.O.P.--I don't know what went wrong when I checked the WASHINGTON POST the first time.  I knew I did something wrong.  I was going to re-check it and I found those same few  1882 "G.O.P."  Fred Shapiro beat me to it by a few minutes.  I hate that guy.
   The "grand old party" was applied to the _Democratic_ party.  The initialism "G.O.P." become popular after 1881 or so's "G.O.M."--for Gladstone, the grand old man.  I have to revise the whole thing into a paper, but I'll wait until PUCK and LIFE (both comic but very political magazines) full text becomes available on the American Periodical Series online.

FLAVOR OF THE MONTH--OED has 1946?
   14 April 1937, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 13 ad:
"I wish we could buy ice cream like this!"
(...)  P. S.--Have you tasted Buttered Pecan Ice Cream?  It's the Sealtest "Flavor of the Month."
_Southern Dairies Ice Cream_

JALAPENO--The first WASHINGTON POST hit is 20 December 1896, pg. 10, about people from Jalapa, Mexico.  The first relevant hit, "D. C. Cooking Goes Cosmopolitan," is 9 November 1951, pg. C1.

PORTOBELLO MUSHROOMS--I went crazy looking for pre-1981 hits for this in some databases.  I used portobello/portobella/portabella/portabello.  Google has a large number of hits for all four.  The NEW YORK TIMES had 1985 at the earliest, and the WASHINGTON POST isn't any better.  There's a publication by the American Mushroom Institute (AMI) that probably has it, but OCLC Worldcat says  that's in the Trademark Office and I don't feel like walking all over town today.

PAD THAI--The first WASHINGTON POST hit is 14 May 1978, pg. SM38, in a review of the Siam Inn restaurant.

POZOLE--
   9 February 1941, WASHINGTON POST, pg. ?:
   In Guadalajara the native dish is "pozole," made with corn, meat and chili sauce.

   23 July 1950, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 59:
   Pozole soup, traditional around Guadalajara, is a hog's head soup with cacahuazintle, dried sweet corn with dark blue or black kernels.

BLIMP--Someone asked me about this.  No real early hits, but a mega-ton of bad "hits," like "bump."

EVANS DIGITAL FROM AMERICAN ANTIQUARIAN SOCIETY--The librarian here (the one who gave me the WASHINGTON POST secret password) hasn't heard of it.  They don't have it yet.


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 16 15:55:09 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:55:09 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.44.0211121130530.25543-100000@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.105509.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What amazes me most about Cole Porter is how, even in 1934, he knew which
items would have staying power. When you consider all of the brand names
around then that have since evaporated, it's extremely prescient on his
part to have chosen brands that now, in 2002, are still around:

You're the top! You're a Waldorf salad.
You're the top! You're a Berlin ballad.
You're a baby grand of a lady and a gent.
You're an old dutch master, You're Mrs. Aster,
You're Pepsodent.

  or

You're the top! You're a dance in Bali.
You're the top! You're a hot tamale.
You're an angel, you simply too, too, too diveen,
You're a Botticelli, You're Keats, You're Shelley,
You're Ovaltine.



-- Steve


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 16 16:09:55 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:09:55 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.50.0212161052490.2054-100000@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.110955.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Part of the reason Porter's lyrics in "You're the Top" may seem prescient
is that some of the lyrics that stand the test of time less were edited
out in later versions.  For example, "you're Mussolini" was one of the
original lines that was later eliminated.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 16 16:13:08 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:13:08 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0212161108150.3898-100000@minerva>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.111308.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 11:09:55AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> Part of the reason Porter's lyrics in "You're the Top" may seem prescient
> is that some of the lyrics that stand the test of time less were edited
> out in later versions.  For example, "you're Mussolini" was one of the
> original lines that was later eliminated.

Perhaps because the "Mussolini" line wasn't an original line
and wasn't written by Cole Porter.  It was inserted by
P. G. Wodehouse (!) for a later production.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 16 16:37:57 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:37:57 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <20021216161308.GA7546@panix.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.113757.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:13 AM -0500 12/16/02, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 11:09:55AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>>  Part of the reason Porter's lyrics in "You're the Top" may seem prescient
>>  is that some of the lyrics that stand the test of time less were edited
>>  out in later versions.  For example, "you're Mussolini" was one of the
>>  original lines that was later eliminated.
>
>Perhaps because the "Mussolini" line wasn't an original line
>and wasn't written by Cole Porter.  It was inserted by
>P. G. Wodehouse (!) for a later production.
>

As Cole's fine Yale education no doubt taught him, Pepsodent, Keats,
and Mrs. Astor were much sounder options.

Larry


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 16 16:54:04 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:54:04 -0800
Subject: Query: Why the plural in Spanish "Buenas dias," etc.? (OT)
In-Reply-To: <a3.34d9eb22.2b2e9930@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.085404.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> It's "Buenos dias" (acute accent on the i, "di/as") not "buenas".  "El di/a"
> is one of the rare exceptions to the rule that a noun ending in -a is
> feminine.

...and probably because its Latin predecessor is masculine--the only
masculine noun, I believe, in the 5th declension.

PR


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 16 17:33:26 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:33:26 -0500
Subject: MLA cocktails invite (28 Dec.)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.123326.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear colleague,

This is a semi-open[1] invitation to a cocktail party
during this year's Modern Language Association conference
in New York. Since I live there, I thought that the least
I can do is to have everyone over who might be in town for
the event. Please come! We'll all get the chance to schmooze.

Cocktails, Saturday, 28 December 2002 from 8.00-10.00 p.m.,
2 Beekman Place Apt. 4A (that's at 50th Street, East of
First Ave.), New York. Please RSVP to me by e-mail at
jester at panix.com . Feel free to bring a friend or other
company.

I apologize in advance for any duplicated receipt of this
message, but I'm sending it to a few lists as well as to
some people personally.

Hope to see you there.

With best wishes,

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary

[1] If you are a member of the American Dialect Society or the
Dictionary Society of North America, or if you're otherwise a
working linguist or lexicographer, or if I've sent this
specifically to you, or if I've ever discussed language issues
with you either in person or by e-mail, consider yourself
invited. Otherwise, please send me e-mail and I'm sure I'll
let you come anyway.


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Dec 16 17:33:33 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 09:33:33 -0800
Subject: Query: Why the plural in Spanish "Buenas dias," etc.? (OT)
In-Reply-To: <p04310103ba22e8ea33e6@[131.151.64.168]>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.093333.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Turkish has or had when I first studied it:

iyi geceler (lit. good evenings)
iyi ak,samlar (lit. good nights)
iyi g"unler (good bye; lit. good days)

Why? I've got no idea.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Sun, 15 Dec 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote:

>     This is off topic, but perhaps someone on the list knows the
> answer: Why does Spanish use the plural for Buenas dias (Good day),
> Buenas tardes (Good afternoon) and Buenas noches (Good night)?  I
> know of no other language that does this.
>
>     Any help would be much appreciated.
>
> Gerald Cohen
>


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Mon Dec 16 17:41:38 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:41:38 -0000
Subject: MLA cocktails invite (28 Dec.)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.174138.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If only.

On the other hand, Susie and I should be back in 49th Street, Felix Dennis's
schedule permitting, in the early spring, so if I don't by some fortunate
chance see you in London prior to that, I trust we can cross paths then. I
think Tom Dalzell has some plan that we should all have some kind of 'slang'
dinner. Let us see. I have, en passant, said to Barry Popik that I would
very much like to met him, but while he replied to the rest of my mail, he
sedulously ignores that sentence. Maybe, when the time comes, you can put in
a plea.

Best wishes,

Jonathon


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 17:42:38 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:42:38 -0500
Subject: "Winning isn't everything" (1954 WASHINGTON POST)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.124238.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   18 November 1954, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 37:
   Nonetheless, Kuharich, a former-All-Pro guard who still is a pro all the way, remains a realist.  As he once said, "Winning isn't everything in pro football--it's the only thing."

(FWIW, from Washington Redskins head coach Joe Kuharich.  But he's not famous, so go with Vince Lombardi--ed.)


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 17:45:31 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:45:31 EST
Subject: Query: Why the plural in Spanish "Buenas dias," etc.? (OT)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.124531.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/15/02 9:35:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, gcohen at UMR.EDU
writes:

> Why does Spanish use the plural for Buenas dias (Good day),
>  Buenas tardes (Good afternoon) and Buenas noches (Good night)?  I
>  know of no other language that does this.

A quick Google search turns up no Web page (in English or Spanish or any
other language) that answers this question.  I did however find, at URL
http://www.mapuexpress.net/publicaciones/raguileo.htm, that in Mapuche (a
Native American language of Mexico), which apparently has a dual number,
"Buenos dias" is "Mari Mari".

     - Jim Landau


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 16 17:46:16 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:46:16 -0500
Subject: MLA cocktails invite (28 Dec.)
In-Reply-To: <001101c2a52a$6362e430$ad00a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.124616.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 05:41:38PM -0000, Jonathon Green wrote:
> If only.
>
> On the other hand, Susie and I should be back in 49th Street, Felix Dennis's
> schedule permitting, in the early spring, so if I don't by some fortunate
> chance see you in London prior to that, I trust we can cross paths then. I
> think Tom Dalzell has some plan that we should all have some kind of 'slang'
> dinner. Let us see. I have, en passant, said to Barry Popik that I would
> very much like to met him, but while he replied to the rest of my mail, he
> sedulously ignores that sentence. Maybe, when the time comes, you can put in
> a plea.

I look forward to seeing you in the spring. I don't know if Barry will show
for this--I'm sure a lot of people would like to meet him. He's fine in
person, as I think I've mentioned.

I think Tom will be in New York a few days after this party--he doesn't
get here, nor I there, as often as either of us would prefer. Oh, you also
have to meet Madeline Kripke, if you haven't yet.

Best,

Jesse


From translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM  Mon Dec 16 18:07:34 2002
From: translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM (Billionbridges.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:07:34 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.130734.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Waldorf salad? Berlin ballad? Mrs. Aster? I agree
with the rest in the selection you quote, but as a
culturally cognizant 36 year-old, these three escape
me.

Best,
Don


> What amazes me most about Cole Porter is how, even in 1934, he knew which
> items would have staying power. When you consider all of the brand names
> around then that have since evaporated, it's extremely prescient on his
> part to have chosen brands that now, in 2002, are still around:
>
> You're the top! You're a Waldorf salad.
> You're the top! You're a Berlin ballad.
> You're a baby grand of a lady and a gent.
> You're an old dutch master, You're Mrs. Aster,
> You're Pepsodent.
>
>   or
>
> You're the top! You're a dance in Bali.
> You're the top! You're a hot tamale.
> You're an angel, you simply too, too, too diveen,
> You're a Botticelli, You're Keats, You're Shelley,
> You're Ovaltine.
>
>
>
> -- Steve


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Mon Dec 16 18:19:46 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:19:46 -0600
Subject: First English citation of "autism" (August 1912) - caution,
 long response ahead!
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.121946.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Borsos" <sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 1:13 AM
Subject: Re: First English citation of "autism" (August 1912)


> The contemporary usage of autism can be traced back to the
> descriptions of Leo Kanner and Hans Asperger in the 1940's.  This
> usage of autism is distinguished from Bleuler's usage, (although it
> seems to have been derived from Bleuler).


Actually, it was used almost exclusively for Kanner's autism (also called
"classic autism" or "childhood autism" -- the latter less accurately, for
reasons given in Firth's citation in this reply), because Hans Asperger's
work was largely ignored for more than thirty years: in part because it was
never published in English.  Uta Firth (cited below) was the first to
undertake a translation of Asperger's work (if I recall correctly).

 > Quoting Uta Firth, Autism: Explaining the Enigma, pg.7:
>
>     "Any treatment of the topic of childhood Autism must start with
> the pioneers Leo Kanner and Hans Asperger who, independently of each
> other, first published accounts of this disorder.  These
> publications, Kanner's in 1943 and Asperger's in 1944, contained
> detailed case descriptions and also offered the first theoretical
> attempts to explain the disorder.  Both authorities believed that
> there was present from birth a fundamental disturbance which gave
> rise to highly characteristic problems...."

>     It seems a remarkable coincidence that both chose the word
> 'autistic' in order to characterize the nature of the underlying
> disturbance.  In fact, it is not really a coincidence, since the
> label had already been introduced by the eminent psychiatrist Ernst
> Bleuler in 1911.  It originally referred to a basic disturbance in
> schizophrenia (another term coined by Bleuler),namely the narrowing
> of relationships to people and to the outside world,

Indeed it is remarkable, especially since they did not seem to equate the
syndromes they were describing, which are now more accurately referred to as
points on the "autistic spectrum", or "autistic spectrum disorders".  Of
course, most experts now agree that autism has little or nothing to do with
schizophrenia (the definition of which has also changed greatly since
1911!).  Schizophrenia seems controllable with medications (when
consistently taken, whether symptom-free or not), while there is little
evidence medication can help much in autistic spectrum disorders, except to
treat symptoms of loosely associated mental illnesses, such as obessive
compulsive disorder, chronic depression, anxiety disorders, or bipolar
disorder.  Most high-functioning "Aspies" (people with Asperger Syndrome)
are very aware that there is something very different about them, that makes
them seem odd to other people, but they cannot really define what it is or
how to effect change until behavioral strategies have been introduced and
consistently reinforced.   Many people with "Kanner's autism" are not aware
enough of other people and social mores to realize that they appear very
odd.  (Which is kind of a blessing, because it also does not therefore,
bother them and make them anxious.)

> Incidentally, I believe that Kanner and Asperger (as well as Rett,
> who described Rett Syndrome, which is a degenerative condition
> similar in some ways to Autism), were all Viennese trained, though
> Kanner worked in the United States (at John Hopkins if I remember
> right).
>
> Chuck Borsos
> Santa Cruz, CA
> --
>
Rett syndrome does cause similar symptomology, but seems to be progressive
and unstoppable.  Most points on the autistic spectrum are more fluid, and
coping strategies can be taught, once the differences in thinking patterns
have been recognized for what they are.  The biggest differences between
"high functioning autism" and Asperger Syndrome, btw, seem to be that the AS
child does not necessarily have ANY delay in speech acquisition (and in
fact, may speak exceptionally early, but have a very flat intonation -- my
sister used to say our son "talked like a robot" when he was two to three
years old), tend to have very high IQ's, read early, become almost
obsessively preoccupied with one topic over anything else in their world
(ceiling fans, dinosaurs, air vent covers, train schedules), are more aware
of their "oddness", and withdraw from others because they do not know what
to do in social situations and are "hurt" emotionally a lot.

If Asperger had worked in the US after the war, like Kanner did, we would
never have had to wait over forty years for his work to be translated and
recognized for the breakthrough it represented.  His clinic in Austria was
bombed several times, and virtually closed in 1945 when he lost his most
gifted and empathetic nurse to an air raid.  He kind of "dropped off the
radar" until Uta Firth translated much of his work and notes around 1984.
AS still was not widely recognized until the mid-1990's, when more
researchers picked up on it too, and started publishing more about it.
Children with AS are typically not diagnosed at all until around first
grade, when people finally start figuring out that their sensory
disintegration and behavior issues are actually cognitive and biological,
and not willful immaturity.  I personally know several Aspies who were not
diagnosed until around age ten or twelve in the late 1990's.

As you have ascertained by now, our son has Asperger Syndrome.  We know way
more about it now (he was diagnosed at six, and is now seven-and-a-half)
than we ever would have expected to know about autism at all.  His IQ is
over 140, but he has a rough time in school because his senses get
overwhelmed and he shuts down.  We found after his diagnosis that we had
already been automatically applying some of the strategies suggested to help
him cope, so he is well on his way now to at least appear "neuro-typical" by
the time he hits adolescence (when hormones gone ballistic may throw him
into it all over again).  But we will always have to watch him for
depressive episodes, and for bipolar tendencies.  As for the obsession with
one particular topic?  His happens to be dinosaurs, but is branching out
into dragons and the Middle Ages now.  Can anyone think of a particularly
"odd" professor you have ever had, who seemed obsessed with one small part
of one subspecialty of his or her field?  We probably all can (three-volume
grammars of obscure and dying Australian aboriginal languages, anyone?).  A
friend of mine (with an autistic math whiz) calls universities "protected
workshops for autistics".  :-)   -- Millie


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec 16 18:18:43 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:18:43 -0500
Subject: MLA cocktails invite (28 Dec.)
In-Reply-To: <001101c2a52a$6362e430$ad00a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.131843.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 05:41 PM 12/16/2002 +0000, you wrote:
>If only.
>
>On the other hand, Susie and I should be back in 49th Street, Felix Dennis's
>schedule permitting, in the early spring, so if I don't by some fortunate
>chance see you in London prior to that, I trust we can cross paths then. I
>think Tom Dalzell has some plan that we should all have some kind of 'slang'
>dinner. Let us see. I have, en passant, said to Barry Popik that I would
>very much like to met him, but while he replied to the rest of my mail, he
>sedulously ignores that sentence. Maybe, when the time comes, you can put in
>a plea.
>
>Best wishes,
>
>Jonathon

Just go to the New York Public Library and ask for Barry at the Information
desk--they all know him!


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 16 18:31:36 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:31:36 -0800
Subject: Query: Why the plural in Spanish "Buenas dias," etc.? (OT)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0212160928040.69764-100000@homer11.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.103136.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I noticed on a trip to Peru in June that people there say "Bueno dia" and I
think "Buena noche."  Whether this is an adoption of singular forms or part
of a larger phonological phenomenon whereby final s is lost, I don't know,
since these two expressions constitute about one-third of the Spanish I've
retained from grade school in California.

Peter Mc.

--On Monday, December 16, 2002 9:33 AM -0800 "A. Maberry"
<maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU> wrote:

> Turkish has or had when I first studied it:
>
> iyi geceler (lit. good evenings)
> iyi ak,samlar (lit. good nights)
> iyi g"unler (good bye; lit. good days)
>
> Why? I've got no idea.
>
> allen
> maberry at u.washington.edu
>
>
> On Sun, 15 Dec 2002, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>
>>     This is off topic, but perhaps someone on the list knows the
>> answer: Why does Spanish use the plural for Buenas dias (Good day),
>> Buenas tardes (Good afternoon) and Buenas noches (Good night)?  I
>> know of no other language that does this.
>>
>>     Any help would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Gerald Cohen
>>



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Mon Dec 16 18:35:21 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:35:21 -0600
Subject: Kolache (1896)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.123521.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yep, sorry, Steve.  Someone pointed out to me privately that you had typed
"dervied" and not "derived".  I definitely consider it English, but was
commenting that it came over "direct and whole" as a borrowing, not some
kind of derivation.  Forgive my dyxlia.  ;-)    Millie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Kl." <stevekl at PANIX.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: Kolache (1896)


> On Tue, 10 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:
>
> > If you want to get technical, Kohlrabi is actually German, not English
(not
> > "derived from German").
>
> It's listed in AHD, RHC, MW10, WNW; it's an English word now, too, not
> unlike sauerkraut.
>
> -- Steve
>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 16 18:34:21 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:34:21 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <20021216161308.GA7546@panix.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.133421.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> Perhaps because the "Mussolini" line wasn't an original line
> and wasn't written by Cole Porter.  It was inserted by
> P. G. Wodehouse (!) for a later production.

My bad.  Looking at The Complete Lyrics of Cole Porter, I see that
Mussolini was not in the original lyrics.  CLCP says that P. G. Wodehouse
added lyrics for the London production; it doesn't indicate that the
Mussolini line was among these (i.e., it doesn't tell what the Wodehouse
additions were), but I'll take Jesse's word for it.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 16 18:46:00 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:46:00 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.44.0212161332160.16140-100000@minerva>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.134600.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Dec 16, 2002 at 01:34:21PM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
> > Perhaps because the "Mussolini" line wasn't an original line
> > and wasn't written by Cole Porter.  It was inserted by
> > P. G. Wodehouse (!) for a later production.
>
> My bad.  Looking at The Complete Lyrics of Cole Porter, I see that
> Mussolini was not in the original lyrics.  CLCP says that P. G. Wodehouse
> added lyrics for the London production; it doesn't indicate that the
> Mussolini line was among these (i.e., it doesn't tell what the Wodehouse
> additions were), but I'll take Jesse's word for it.

There was a famous (to me, at least) exchange a few years back, when
the N.Y. Times Magazine did a cover article about Mussolini, and the
writer commented that Mussolini's reputation was so bad at this point
that even the magisterial CLCP doesn't quote that line. Robert Kimball,
the editor, wrote in to explain why. I'm sure you can Nexis this up
for us....

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 16 18:52:15 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:52:15 -0800
Subject: Query: Why the plural in Spanish "Buenas dias," etc.? (OT)
In-Reply-To: <518857.1040034696@[10.218.201.115]>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.105215.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sounds like the common disappearance of final -s in various versions of
Spanish. (e.g. ?Como e-ta-? (<estas)

> think "Buena noche."  Whether this is an adoption of singular forms or part
> of a larger phonological phenomenon whereby final s is lost, I don't know,

PR


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 19:02:54 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:02:54 -0500
Subject: YMCA Bangkok, Thailand COOK BOOK (1963)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.140254.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   EARLY SIAMESE DISHES (1952) is "Not on Shelf."  I'M SHOCKED!!
   This is the next earliest Thai cookbook in English.  Tell me if you want more detail and I'll copy it.  I'll extensively copy Thai words because it's the first such book we have.

---------------------------------------------------------------


YOUNG MEN'S CHRISTIAN ASSOCIATIONS
BANGKOK, THAILAND
  COOK BOOK
1963

Pg. XXXV
   VEGETABLES
Phuk Bung
Katin
Kui Chai
Tamlung
Gachad
Phuk Chee...Coriander
Khun Chai...Chinese celery.
Phuk Khom...A kind of spinach, sold in bunches in market.
Hua Plee...Banana flower.
Tung Oh...Chinese vegetable used in soup.
Nor Mai...Bamboo shoot.
Makhua...Eggplant, purple or green or white long fruit.
Makhua Khun...Sharp-yellow eggplant.
Makhua Chowphya...Pale green eggplant.
Makhua Puang...Small pale green berries used in curry.
Ma Uk..Green or Yellow eggplant with a beige hairy peel used in turtle curry or shrimp paste.
Big Chilli
Chilli
Little Chilli
Yellow Chilli
Ton Hom..Spring onion.
Ton Katiem...Leek.
Thua Ngork...Bean Sprout.
Thua Fak Yow...Longbean.
Thua Khek...French bean or string bean.
Thua Lan Tow...Peas.
Thua Leung...Soya beans.
Thua Khiew...Green peas.
Thua Dam...Black beans.
Pg. XXXVI:
Taeng Ran...Zucchini Squash.
Thua Si Chompoo...Pink beans.
Thua Daeng...Red beans.
Thua Thong...Yellow beans.
Thua Pu...Winged beans.
Fak Khiew...White gourd.
Fak Thong...Pumpkin.
Buab...Sponge Gourd.
Taeng Kwa...Cucumber.
Phak Kard Hom...Lettuce.
Phak Kard Khow...Green lettuce.
Kalam Plee...Cabbage.
Kalam Dork...Cauliflower.
Kalam Pom...Kohlrabi.
Hom Lek...Shallot.
Hom Yai...Onion.
Katiem...Garlic.
   OTHER INGREDIENTS
Khao tang...Dried rice, can be bought in sheet.
Khao krieb...Sliced dry shrimp and fish paste, fried when used.
Scented water...Flower scented water used in kanom.
Tao Chiew...Bean Curd.
Malet Bua...Dried Lotus Seeds.
Pang Poh Piet...Spring Roll Wrappers.
   ROOTS
Man-gaew...Yam-bean.
Takrai...Lemon grass.
Kachai...Yellow roots, a kind of ginger.
Rak Pak Chee...Coriander root.
Khing...Ginger.
Kha...A kind of light brown root used in some kind of curries.
Phuak...Taro, brown root.
Man Tayd...Sweet potatoes.
Man Farang...Potatoes.
Man Sampalung...Tapioca.
   LEAVES
Horapha...Green leaves and stems, small white flowers, smells somewhat like mint (used for curry).
Pg. XXXVII:
Bai Makrood...Leaf of Makrood (see fruit).
Bai Kapraw...SImilar to Horapha, but has white stems and different smell.
Bai Mangluck...Similar to Horapha but different smell.
Toey...Cluster of sword-shaped leaves.
Saranay...Mint.
   DRY INGREDIENTS
Hed Hu Nu...Brown hard dry mushrooms (soak in water before using) dry or jelly mushrooms.
Hed Hom...Fragrant mushrooms, black dried.
Fong Tao Hoo...Hard dry yellow leaves (soak in water before using).
Nor Mai Jeen...Dried Bamboo shoot.
Dork Mai Jeen...Dark yellow dried tube flower.
Woon Sen...Vermicelli, thin threadlike white spaghetti.
Tang Chai...Pickled vegetable, used in soup, noodles, etc.
Sen Mee...Dried Chinese noodle (soak in water before using).
   SPICES
Piew makrood...Makrood skin, used in curries.
Yee Rah...Carraway seeds.
Look Chan...Nutmeg.
Krawan...Cardamom.
Bai Krawan...Bay leaves.
Karn Plu...Clove.
Ob Cheuy...Cinnamon.
Pong Curry...CUrry powder.
Prick Haeng...Dried Chillies.
Yah Faran...Saffron.
Prick Thai...Pepper.
Nga...Sesame.
Khamin...Tumeric.
Horapa...Basil.
Dock Chan Tead...Mace.
Med Pagad...Mustard seed.
Macam...Jamarind.
Yee Rah...Fennel or carraway seed.
Cha Ame...Licorice.
Pg. XXXVIII:
   FRUIT USED IN COOKING
Som Sa...Green or yellow fruit, looks lik a round rough orange.
Ra Kam...Orange-red fruit.
Makrood...Green fruit with rough peel; use leaves and peel in curiies.
Madan...Carcinia, green, transparent, very sour taste.
Manao...Lime.
Makork...A kind of fruit used for making chili paste.
Talingpling...A kind of fruit similar to madan in taste, but rough.
Krajiep...Roselle.
Pg. XXIX:
   FRUIT
Som oh...Pomelo.
Som khiew wan...A kind of tangerine.
Som klieng...Orange.
Som jook...A kind of orange.
Kluey hom...A yellow long banana.
Kluey huk mook...A kind of yellow-reddish banana.
Kluey nam lawa...A kind of banana.
Kluey khai...A kind of small banana.
Mangkut...Mangosteen.
Noy na...Custard apple.
Lamyai...Dragon's eyes (brown and in cluster).
Kanoon...Jackfruit.
Turian...Durian.
Ngoh...Rambutan.
Langsard...Lansium domesticum (yellow and slightly sticky in cluster).
Mamuang...Mango.
Maprang...A kind of yellow plum, shaped like mango and in season at the same time.
Mayom...Star gooseberry, small, yellow, transparent, on branch.
Sapparot...Pineapple.
Malakor...Papaya.
Farang...Guava.
Lamoot...Sapodilla (potato fruit) dark brown fruit.
Maprow...Coconut.
Chompoo...Rose Apple.
Linchi...Lichi.
Taengtai...Melon.
Kathorn...Wood apple-brown, spongy, cotton wooly inside.
Mafeung..Carambola star-fruit--green and yellow--transparent.
Sake...Bread fruit.
Tab Tim...Pomegranate.
Pg. XL:
   FISH
Mud fish
Fla Chorn...Serpent headed fish.
Pla Dook...Cat fish.
Pla Mor Ted...Tilapia.
Pla Lai...Eel.
Pla Salid...Pilot fish.
Sea Fish
Pla Maw Talay...Whiting
Pla Gao...Greenling
Pla Kapong Dang...Red Snapper
Pla Kapong Kao...White Sea Perch
Pla Kapong Dam...Giant Sea Bass
Pla Ga Rang...Black Grouper
Pla Nam Dok Mai...Barracuda
Pla Ka Bok...Mullet
Pla Kulao...White Sea Bass
Pla Oh--Tuna Fish--Large member of the mackerel family.  Blue fin tuna is most often seen in the fish market here.
Pla Insee--Wahoo (Mackerel)
Pg. XLI:
Pla Lin Ma...Sole
Pla Charamed...Pompano
Pla Too...Herring--Small and silver.
Pla Muk---Squid, Cuttle fish or inkfish.
SHell FIsh
Gung Nang...Small shrimp.
Gung Hang...Dried shrimp.
Gung Yai...Prawns (Large shrimps).
Gang...Rock Lobster.
Bpoo...Crab.
Hoy Chai...Scallops
Ho Ta Lup...Clams
Hoy Nang Lum...Oysters
Hoy Ga Pong...Mussels
Hoy Ma Laeng Poo...Sea Mussels
Hoy Kraeng...Cockle
Hoy Kohng Talay...Abalone

Pg. 5:  Khao Tang (sheets of dried cooked rice peeled off bottom of rice kettle.)
Pg. 6:  Lumpia (Philippines).
Pg. 6:  Mieng Kham.
Pg. 47: Sa-Nwin-Ma-Kin (Burmese).
Pg. 47: Ta Cao (Thai).
Pg. 48: Thai Custard (Sangkhaya).
Pg. 69: Kaeng Masaman.
Pg. 89:  Johnny Marzetti.  (OK, it's not really a Thai cookbook--ed.)
Pg. 89: Mohinga--Burmese National Dish.
Pg. 90: Rice Noodles With Peanut Sauce (Nam Prik Knom Jin).
Pg. 90: Mee Krob.
Pg. 91: Wun Sen (Thai vermicelli with vegetables).
Pg. 91: Sang's Thai Noodle Soup.
Pg. 108: Chicken Curry (Kaeng Kai).
Pg. 111: Chicken and Prok Adobo (Filipino).
Pg. 113: Khow Mok Gai--Moslim Chicken and Rice.
Pg. 114: Sate Ajam--Grilled Chicken (Indonesian).
Pg. 116: Buffadoo (Portuguese Duck)(Burmese).
Pg. 121: Lethoke (Burmese salad).
Pg. 122: Thanat (Burmese salad).
Pg. 123: Thai Salad (Green Salad With Peanut Dressing).
Pg. 128: Sinsolo Dinner (Korean).
Pg. 129: Tapioca Yaku Soup (Thai).
Pg. 151:  MENUS FROM MANY LANDS
   _Burmese_
Nga-Baung Doke (Burmese Steamed Fish)...pg. 58
Winter Melon Broth...pg. 130
Beef Curry (Burmese)...pg. 65
or Chicken Curry (Burmese)...pg. 108
Steamed Rice Fried White Gourd...pg. 139
Thanat Salad...pg.122
or Lethoke Salad...pg. 121
Sa-Nwin-Ma-Kin...pg. 47
Pg. 156:
   _THai_
Mieng Kham...pg. 6
Stuffed Tapioca Balls...pg. 10
Sang's Thai Noodle Soup...pg. 91
Gai Yang (Thai)...pg. 106
Chicken Curry...pg. 108
or Masaman Curry...pg. 69
Steamed White Rice, Chopped cucumbers and Chopped Tomatoes
Mango Chutney...pg. 102
Thai Custard in Green Coconuts or Fresh Fruit...pg. 48


From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST  Mon Dec 16 19:04:46 2002
From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:04:46 +0100
Subject: Flavor of the Month (1937) - Jalapena
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.200446.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Maybe you should try looking also at Xalapena. I was in Xalapa two months ago, and about half of the Mexicans I met spelled "Jalapa", the other half "Xalapa".
Jan Ivarsson
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:49 PM
Subject: Flavor of the Month (1937)


>     Greetings from the Library of Congress.
>
> G.O.P.--I don't know what went wrong when I checked the WASHINGTON POST the first time.  I knew I did something wrong.  I was going to re-check it and I found those same few  1882 "G.O.P."  Fred Shapiro beat me to it by a few minutes.  I hate that guy.
>    The "grand old party" was applied to the _Democratic_ party.  The initialism "G.O.P." become popular after 1881 or so's "G.O.M."--for Gladstone, the grand old man.  I have to revise the whole thing into a paper, but I'll wait until PUCK and LIFE (both comic but very political magazines) full text becomes available on the American Periodical Series online.
>
> FLAVOR OF THE MONTH--OED has 1946?
>    14 April 1937, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 13 ad:
> "I wish we could buy ice cream like this!"
> (...)  P. S.--Have you tasted Buttered Pecan Ice Cream?  It's the Sealtest "Flavor of the Month."
> _Southern Dairies Ice Cream_
>
> JALAPENO--The first WASHINGTON POST hit is 20 December 1896, pg. 10, about people from Jalapa, Mexico.  The first relevant hit, "D. C. Cooking Goes Cosmopolitan," is 9 November 1951, pg. C1.
>
> PORTOBELLO MUSHROOMS--I went crazy looking for pre-1981 hits for this in some databases.  I used portobello/portobella/portabella/portabello.  Google has a large number of hits for all four.  The NEW YORK TIMES had 1985 at the earliest, and the WASHINGTON POST isn't any better.  There's a publication by the American Mushroom Institute (AMI) that probably has it, but OCLC Worldcat says  that's in the Trademark Office and I don't feel like walking all over town today.
>
> PAD THAI--The first WASHINGTON POST hit is 14 May 1978, pg. SM38, in a review of the Siam Inn restaurant.
>
> POZOLE--
>    9 February 1941, WASHINGTON POST, pg. ?:
>    In Guadalajara the native dish is "pozole," made with corn, meat and chili sauce.
>
>    23 July 1950, WASHINGTON POST, pg. 59:
>    Pozole soup, traditional around Guadalajara, is a hog's head soup with cacahuazintle, dried sweet corn with dark blue or black kernels.
>
> BLIMP--Someone asked me about this.  No real early hits, but a mega-ton of bad "hits," like "bump."
>
> EVANS DIGITAL FROM AMERICAN ANTIQUARIAN SOCIETY--The librarian here (the one who gave me the WASHINGTON POST secret password) hasn't heard of it.  They don't have it yet.
>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 16 19:33:43 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:33:43 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <20021216184600.GA29559@panix.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.143343.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FROM NEW YORK TIMES, 21 AUG. 1994:


The Mussolini lyric from "You're the Top," cited in John Lukacs's article
"Benito Mussolini, Back From the Dead" (July 24), was written by P. G.
Wodehouse for the 1935 London production of "Anything Goes." In the
original 1934 New York production, the Porter refrain was:

You're the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire
You're an O'Neill drama
You're Whistler's mama
You're Camembert.

The fact that the Mussolini line does not appear in Robert Kimball's
"Complete Lyrics of Cole Porter" or "The Unpublished Cole Porter" is not
due to any desire to censor Porter's works; it is simply because he did
not write that version.

There have been numerous parodies of Porter's lyric scheme for "You're the
Top," including a fine ribald version written by Irving Berlin.

ROBERT H. MONTGOMERY JR.
Trustee, Cole Porter Musical and Literary Property Trusts
New York, N.Y.



Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 16 19:42:44 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:42:44 -0800
Subject: Flavor of the Month (1937) - Jalapena
In-Reply-To: <003701c2a536$02d18de0$521642d5@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.114244.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

They must have been from Tejas.

PR

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote:

> Maybe you should try looking also at Xalapena. I was in Xalapa two months ago, and about half of the Mexicans I met spelled "Jalapa", the other half "Xalapa".
> Jan Ivarsson


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 16 19:54:29 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:54:29 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <00a901c2a52e$02537de0$0101a8c0@billionbridges1>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.145429.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Billionbridges.com wrote:

> Waldorf salad? Berlin ballad? Mrs. Aster? I agree
> with the rest in the selection you quote, but as a
> culturally cognizant 36 year-old, these three escape
> me.

Waldorf salads are still to be had. Berlin ballad, I assume, refers to a
ballad by Irving Berlin? And the Astor family is still a known name.

-- Steve


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Dec 16 20:15:12 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:15:12 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021212180313.04a5aec0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.151512.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

#Vance Randolph: a Missouri (Ozarks) story:
#
#<<One time there was a young farmer had some folks come over to his place
#for supper.
#
#... the baby come a-crawling out on the floor, and you could see where he
#has shit all over himself. ... the man spoke right up. "Marthy," says he,
#"fetch the dishrag, and wipe that young-un's ass. If there's one thing I
#can't stand, it's nastiness!"
#
#... They didn't go there for supper no more ....>>

I believe I recall seeing that in the collection _Pissing In the Snow_,
a wonderful book of mountain tales, jokes, and anecdotes that were
considered unprintable at the time they were collected.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec 16 20:22:08 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:22:08 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.152208.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        A Waldorf salad is a salad named after the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel and made from apples, walnuts, lettuce and/or celery, dressed with mayonnaise.  They are still popular.  A Berlin ballad is a song by Irving Berlin, probably the most popular American songwriter.  Mrs. Astor (n?e Caroline Webster Schermerhorn) (1830 - 1908) was the unquestioned doyenne of New York City society for decades.  The upper reaches of NYC society were often called the "four hundred," a reference to the number of people who could fit in her ballroom.

        According to http://dogslife.blogspot.com/2002_07_01_dogslife_archive.html, the Irving Berlin lyrics to You're the Top are as follows:

You're the top.
You're Miss Pinkham's tonic.
You're the top.
You're a high colonic.
You're the burning heat of a bridal suite in use.
You're the breast of Venus,
You're King Kong's penis,
You're self-abuse!
You're an arch from the Rome collection.
You're the starch in a groom's erection.
I'm a eunuch that has undergone an "op."
But if, baby, I'm the bottom, you're the top!

        I'm mystified by Miss Pinkham's tonic and hazy on the arch from the Rome collection.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Billionbridges.com [mailto:translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM]
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 1:08 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cole Porter


Waldorf salad? Berlin ballad? Mrs. Aster? I agree
with the rest in the selection you quote, but as a
culturally cognizant 36 year-old, these three escape
me.

Best,
Don


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Dec 16 20:22:55 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:22:55 -0500
Subject: Six and ten
In-Reply-To: <000701c2a2c7$4d643680$c8ded0d9@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.152255.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote:

#A translator's problem:
#
#A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has bought a dish antenna because he thinks that the Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has paid 4000 $ for the dish and is deceived. He says:
#"I spent four grand for the dish.
#And what do I get? Six and ten!"
#
#My question is: What does he mean by "six and ten"?

My guess is, Channel 6 and Channel 10, which are presumably local
stations that he could pick up with a rabbit-ears set-top antenna that
he could buy for $15 or less at any electronics store.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET  Mon Dec 16 20:26:51 2002
From: buchmann at BELLSOUTH.NET (DAK)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:26:51 -0500
Subject: Six and ten
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.152651.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SIX WINS;
TEN LOSSES.

Mark A Mandel wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Dec 2002, Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote:
>
> #A translator's problem:
> #
> #A guy who is a Bears fan (but lives in LA) has bought a dish antenna because he thinks that the Bears will get to the Super Bowl. He has paid 4000 $ for the dish and is deceived. He says:
> #"I spent four grand for the dish.
> #And what do I get? Six and ten!"
> #
> #My question is: What does he mean by "six and ten"?
>
> My guess is, Channel 6 and Channel 10, which are presumably local
> stations that he could pick up with a rabbit-ears set-top antenna that
> he could buy for $15 or less at any electronics store.
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Mon Dec 16 20:32:12 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:32:12 -0600
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.143212.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I presumed that this is the same "Astor" as the "Lady Astor" I would expect
many of us to have heard of.  Can someone correct me if I'm wrong?  --
Millie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Cole Porter


>         A Waldorf salad is a salad named after the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel
and made from apples, walnuts, lettuce and/or celery, dressed with
mayonnaise.  They are still popular.  A Berlin ballad is a song by Irving
Berlin, probably the most popular American songwriter.  Mrs. Astor (n?e
Caroline Webster Schermerhorn) (1830 - 1908) was the unquestioned doyenne of
New York City society for decades.  The upper reaches of NYC society were
often called the "four hundred," a reference to the number of people who
could fit in her ballroom.


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 16 20:34:21 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:34:21 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
In-Reply-To: <FF54232601C9E346AC5B0ADC0866C6540DB10C@PHEX02.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.153421.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 16 Dec 2002, Baker, John wrote:

> I'm a eunuch that has undergone an "op."
> But if, baby, I'm the bottom, you're the top!

thus bringing the queer top/bottom subtext to the fore.

-- Steve Kleinedler


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Mon Dec 16 20:39:42 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 15:39:42 -0500
Subject: minnow's dick
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.153942.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Brett Favre sure pulled some game announcers' legs real good
yesterday before the Green Bay-San Francisco game. One of them
(forgot which) said how Brett had told them how slick the field was
(it was raining) before the the game. Brett told them, he reported,
that the field was "as slick as the deck of The Minnow." The
announcer then reminded the audience that "The Minnow" was the name
of the boat in "Gilligan's Island."

What he did not know was that "slick as a minnow's dick" is a common
proverbial comparison in many parts of both the lower and upper
South, and ole Brett was doubtless yukking it up in his helmet when
they innocently put his version out on the national airwaves. Me too.

dInIs

PS: Don't tell me you ain't heard this. I have this from fieldwork as
well as from memory (see an old Orbis article of mine on "proverbial
comparison from the upland South" published fore ya'll were born)
--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Mon Dec 16 20:47:46 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:47:46 -0600
Subject: MLA cocktails invite (28 Dec.)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.144746.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jesse Sheidlower" <jester at PANIX.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: MLA cocktails invite (28 Dec.)


> I look forward to seeing you in the spring. I don't know if Barry will show
> for this--I'm sure a lot of people would like to meet him. He's fine in
> person, as I think I've mentioned.


As opposed to on-line?  :-)  Not a slight at all, Barry; I think you sound "delightful", to use one of my mom's favorite words.  -- Millie


From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST  Mon Dec 16 20:55:39 2002
From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:55:39 +0100
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.215539.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The page
http://www.harvardsquarelibrary.org/unitarians/pinkham.html
has the following
"...the Vegetable Compound and other patent remedies of Lydia E. Pinkham had become household standbys, and though the founder of the firm realized only limited wealth, her children and grandchildren had made "Lydia Pinkham" into an eminently profitable industry."
That may be the explanation for "Miss Pinkham's tonic".
Jan Ivarsson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: Cole Porter


>         A Waldorf salad is a salad named after the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel and made from apples, walnuts, lettuce and/or celery, dressed with mayonnaise.  They are still popular.  A Berlin ballad is a song by Irving Berlin, probably the most popular American songwriter.  Mrs. Astor (n?e Caroline Webster Schermerhorn) (1830 - 1908) was the unquestioned doyenne of New York City society for decades.  The upper reaches of NYC society were often called the "four hundred," a reference to the number of people who could fit in her ballroom.
>
>         According to http://dogslife.blogspot.com/2002_07_01_dogslife_archive.html, the Irving Berlin lyrics to You're the Top are as follows:
>
> You're the top.
> You're Miss Pinkham's tonic.
> You're the top.
> You're a high colonic.
> You're the burning heat of a bridal suite in use.
> You're the breast of Venus,
> You're King Kong's penis,
> You're self-abuse!
> You're an arch from the Rome collection.
> You're the starch in a groom's erection.
> I'm a eunuch that has undergone an "op."
> But if, baby, I'm the bottom, you're the top!
>
>         I'm mystified by Miss Pinkham's tonic and hazy on the arch from the Rome collection.
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Billionbridges.com [mailto:translation at BILLIONBRIDGES.COM]
> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 1:08 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Cole Porter
>
>
> Waldorf salad? Berlin ballad? Mrs. Aster? I agree
> with the rest in the selection you quote, but as a
> culturally cognizant 36 year-old, these three escape
> me.
>
> Best,
> Don
>


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Dec 16 21:37:02 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:37:02 -0500
Subject: Oyster Crackers (1857)
In-Reply-To: <p04320401ba239862b144@[130.132.245.243]>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.163702.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Larry writes:
>>The most familiar brand of oyster crackers seems to be Westminster, made in
>>Vermont.
>>
>And for me, they absolutely have to polygonal--I believe hexagonal,
>if I'm counting sides correctly.  I don't know if this is equally
>criterial for other respondents, though.
 ~~~~~~~
For geometry, too, once you get past  triangles & squares as equilateral
button-shaped  figures, hexagons are the most efficient (given that these
are stamped from a broad sheet of dough).  Otherwise you'd have little
scraps of other shapes  filling the interstices.
AM

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 21:43:55 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:43:55 EST
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.164355.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/16/02 3:57:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST writes:

> "...the Vegetable Compound and other patent remedies of Lydia E. Pinkham
had
> become household standbys, and though the founder of the firm realized only
> limited wealth, her children and grandchildren had made "Lydia Pinkham"
into
> an eminently profitable industry."
>  That may be the explanation for "Miss Pinkham's tonic".

Change "may" to "almost certainly is".  Lydia E. Pinkham's Vegetable Compound
was one of the most famous patent medicines of the first half of the 20th
Century.

I suspect that, like many of the "tonics" of that era, it's high alcoholic
content (30 proof) explains much of its popularity---it may even have been
the inspiration for the "Vitameatavegamin" that Lucille Ball made famous in a
fondly-remembered  "I love Lucy" episode.

The old-fashioned "tonic" patent madicine went out of fashion in the US a
couple of generations ago, replaced (I say with some cynicisim) by "herbal
remedies" and various "organic" preparations.  The last well-known tonic of
the old school is Geritol, which has contributed a phrase to American
English: "the Geritol generation".  A similar patent medicine, "Carter's
Little Liver Pills' (actually a laxative) also contributed a phrase "more x
than Carter's has pills".

I wonder what it says for the United States than in the 1950's TV was full of
ads for laxatives but in the 1990's the ads were for painkillers.

As for "Roman arch", my best guess is "you're a Roman [Catholic}
Arch[bishop]" as opposed to say a mere priest.

            - Jim Landau


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec 16 21:52:57 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:52:57 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.165257.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        According to Pissing in the Snow, the farmer was making a bad joke, one that made even guests who weren't too particular get queasy.

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: Beverly Flanigan [mailto:flanigan at OHIOU.EDU]
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:49 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Exposure to language

And that's partially why I don't buy  Doug Wilson's speculation that my
parents (and others in my speech community) were cleverly reversing 'shit'
to 'tish' and then voicing to 'dish'--they were smart but not that
clever!  Nor can I believe Randolph's farmer would have used a cloth for
washing dishes on his baby's rear end; I suspect his community used 'dish'
in the same way mine did, and that the visitors were horrified because they
didn't share that dual usage!


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec 16 21:48:30 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:48:30 -0500
Subject: Exposure to language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212161514060.80406263-100000@shell01.TheWor
 ld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.164830.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:15 PM 12/16/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Dec 2002, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
>#Vance Randolph: a Missouri (Ozarks) story:
>#
>#<<One time there was a young farmer had some folks come over to his place
>#for supper.
>#
>#... the baby come a-crawling out on the floor, and you could see where he
>#has shit all over himself. ... the man spoke right up. "Marthy," says he,
>#"fetch the dishrag, and wipe that young-un's ass. If there's one thing I
>#can't stand, it's nastiness!"
>#
>#... They didn't go there for supper no more ....>>
>
>I believe I recall seeing that in the collection _Pissing In the Snow_,
>a wonderful book of mountain tales, jokes, and anecdotes that were
>considered unprintable at the time they were collected.
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel

And that's partially why I don't buy  Doug Wilson's speculation that my
parents (and others in my speech community) were cleverly reversing 'shit'
to 'tish' and then voicing to 'dish'--they were smart but not that
clever!  Nor can I believe Randolph's farmer would have used a cloth for
washing dishes on his baby's rear end; I suspect his community used 'dish'
in the same way mine did, and that the visitors were horrified because they
didn't share that dual usage!


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec 16 22:07:29 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:07:29 -0500
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.170729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Nice work on Miss Pinkham's tonic.  As to the "arch from the Rome collection," my guess is that the Rome collection is the Vatican's famous collection of prohibited books, reputed to include many famous pornographic works.  If that's right, though, it's not clear what "arch" would refer to.

        I presume that by Lady Astor, Millie Webb meant Viscountess Nancy Witcher Astor (1879 - 1964), the first woman to sit in the House of Commons, best known today for her bon mots and as Winston Churchill's verbal antagonist.  Some quotes are reproduced at http://www.dropbears.com/b/broughsbooks/lady_astor.htm.  Lady Astor is, of course, entirely different from the earlier Mrs. Astor, though they both married into the same Astor family.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM]
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:44 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cole Porter

As for "Roman arch", my best guess is "you're a Roman [Catholic}
Arch[bishop]" as opposed to say a mere priest.

            - Jim Landau


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 16 23:26:01 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:26:01 -0500
Subject: Windy City (Jan. 16, 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER)
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.182601.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   No trip to the Library of Congress could be complete without pushing "Windy City" back a bit.  I'm told that this is Dennnis Preston's favorite ADS-L feature.
   I did NOT see it in very long Chicago articles in the LOUISVILLE COURIER JOURNAL in 1882.  Also, the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER had a good chance to use it about two weeks earlier in 1883, but didn't.
   Notice the lack of caps.

   16 January 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 1:
   THE Chicago papers are quick to "catch on" to a fire sensation and make the most of it.  The Milwaukee calamity was almost at Chicago's doors, and put the people of the windy city on the alert.  The first news received in Cincinnati of the fire in the Planters' House in St. Louis Sunday morning came from Chicago.  They know how to appreciate a fire item up that way.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec 16 23:28:12 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:28:12 -0500
Subject: FW: arch from Rome
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.182812.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I'm forwarding a list contribution from Sally Donlon.  I note in response that the Irving Berlin version of "You're the Top" seemingly consists of only risque references, making a straightforward reference to Roman arches unlikely.  However, the suggested meaning probably is a part of whatever double entendre is intended.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Sally Donlon [mailto:sod at louisiana.edu]
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 6:18 PM
To: Baker, John
Subject: arch from Rome


Excuse me, but why couldn't "arch from the Rome collection"
simply refer to a Roman arch, as in memes and spandrels,
etc.? The Roman arches in Hadrian's Wall, alone, merited
their own documentary. It's a classical form that has
intrigued historians and archaeologists since it's somewhat
remarkable inception.

Happy Holidays,

Sally O. Donlon

P.S. Sorry to impose on your email but there's some setting
on my university's server that precludes me from
participating directly in the list, and this has been
killing me.....  -sod-


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Tue Dec 17 00:17:50 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:17:50 -0600
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.181750.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you very much.  I wondered about that: How could she be an American
party queen (or whatever more genteel word was used earlier) if she were a
Brit in the House of Commons.  -- Millie

(And I will look at that site with some of her quotes.  Thanks for that
reference too.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Cole Porter


>         I presume that by Lady Astor, Millie Webb meant Viscountess Nancy
Witcher Astor (1879 - 1964), the first woman to sit in the House of Commons,
best known today for her bon mots and as Winston Churchill's verbal
antagonist.  Some quotes are reproduced at
http://www.dropbears.com/b/broughsbooks/lady_astor.htm.  Lady Astor is, of
course, entirely different from the earlier Mrs. Astor, though they both
married into the same Astor family.
>
> John Baker


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Dec 17 03:17:51 2002
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:17:51 -0600
Subject: up a stump/calculate
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20021215233912.0295e710@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.211751.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A fellow student asked me about the following. I was unable to help
him and offered to forward his message to the list.


Does anyone know if 'up a stump' as an idiom and 'I calculate' in the
sense of 'I suppose' are used in Appalachian speech?  The sources I
have found (DARE and the Dictionary of American Regionalisms) suggest
that both are chiefly Northern.  Additionally, the idiom usually
means 'to be pregnant'.  Can it have a more general meaning of simply
'to be in trouble'?

Thank you,

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics
        For Rodney Edwards


From lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG  Tue Dec 17 08:28:36 2002
From: lists at SPANISHTRANSLATOR.ORG (Scott Sadowsky)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 04:28:36 -0400
Subject: Using the BNC
In-Reply-To: <001301c2a519$eb697e40$ad00a8c0@green>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.042836.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dave Wilton:
>But the page number is essential if you want to check the accuracy of the
>electronic version. One has no assurance that the text wasn't altered when it
>was digitized. Such changes happen often enough that it is not a trivial
>issue.
>Depending on the importance of the quotation to your work, you may very much
>want to go back and look at it in the original just to make sure.

I guess this reflects our different criteria and goals.  Coming from a
corpus linguistics approach, I would assign virtually no importance to any
single occurrence of *anything*.  First of all because, as you point out, a
certain percentage of bad data is inevitable, and that means that you need
multiple occurrences of what you're interested in before you can even be
sure it's actually what you've found.  And secondly, there is very little
that you can reliably conclude from a single event of any sort.

 From this perspective, antedating based on single examples (to take on a
favorite ADS-L pastime) is really quite pointless.  Of course, if the goal
is to assemble everyone's antedatings of a given word at some point and
work from there, then it makes some sense.  But this approach is utterly
hit-and-miss, and to my mind the only responsible reaction to reports of
such data points is to file them away until there are enough to begin to
draw at least moderately sound conclusions.

Personally, if I were an antedater I'd stop reading old texts, start OCRing
them, assemble them into corpora when I had a couple million words, and
then knock off a five or ten thousand antedatings in a week or two.

And yes, I'm aware you weren't talking specifically about antedating...
call it a ranty tangent if you will.

Cheers,
Scott

_____________________________________________________________
Scott Sadowsky
Centro de Estudios Cognitivos, Universidad de Chile
sadowsky at spanishtranslator.org ? ssadowsk at icaro.dic.uchile.cl
_____________________________________________________________


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Tue Dec 17 09:25:40 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:25:40 -0000
Subject: MLA cocktails invite (28 Dec.)
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.092540.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Aaarrgghh! Embarrassment. Posting a mail to Jesse thinking it would go to
him alone, rather than the entire list. Still, thanks for your advice. I
shall act accordingly when I get back to th NYPL. Of course, being a Brit I
shall probably tremble wihout the full apparatus of formal inroduction.

Jonathon Green


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 17 11:09:03 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 06:09:03 EST
Subject: "A Sucker Born Every Day" (Feb. 5, 1883)
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.060903.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Scott Sadowsky wrote:
"From this perspective, antedating based on single examples (to take on a
favorite ADS-L pastime) is really quite pointless.  Of course, if the goal
is to assemble everyone's antedatings of a given word at some point and
work from there, then it makes some sense.  But this approach is utterly
hit-and-miss, and to my mind the only responsible reaction to reports of
such data points is to file them away until there are enough to begin to
draw at least moderately sound conclusions.
"Personally, if I were an antedater I'd stop reading old texts, start OCRing
them, assemble them into corpora when I had a couple million words, and
then knock off a five or ten thousand antedatings in a week or two."

   I disagree.  You have to examine each text critically, post results, and
discuss them,  Stop reading old texts and start OCRing them?  Some points
about that:

1. COPYRIGHTS--Much work cannot be put on a database until the copyright
expires.  We have to read the sources immediately where we can find them, or
you'll have a long wait for that Caesar salad.
2. COMPILING--Yes, it's being assembled at various places, from the OED to
Merriam-Webster to DARE.  We try to improve what's already there, working
with various different deadlines.  We use all available tools to do so.  It
is not hit-or-miss, nor is it pointless.  Nor can thousands of words and
phrases be done in a week or two.
3.  OCR IS NOT NEARLY PERFECT--The number of false hits is sometimes quite
large.  For "G.O.P," for example, I anticipated false hits to be very large
for this three-letter term (especially in classified pages), so I added other
terms in a quick search, such as "grand old party."  This resulted in my not
finding the first hit, but I didn't know that it was needed this week!  In
the case of AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES online, early false hits are 90%, s
ometimes 100% for short words like "jazz."  So even if all material is
OCRed--which is far from being the case--you still need to interpret it.  And
if you get back a thousand "big apple" results, do you have what you want?
4. SPELLINGS VARY--A lot of the food terms I research are originally from
other nations.  Take "steak tartar."  Or is it "steak tartare," or "steak a
la tartare," or "steak a la tartar," or "beefsteak a la tartare," or
"beefsteak a la tartar," or "beoufsteak a la tartare," or maybe it's even
"sirloin a la tartar"?   Is it "posole" or "pozole"?  And is that 1896
"brownie" really the "brownie" we now know?  You look at OED and M-W, then
check all forms in all the relevant databases.  This takes a long while.
Then you check out the books and magazines for the geographic area (Mexico?)
or topic area (mushrooms?) where it might be.  And there are tons of books
and magazines, most all that have to be done by hand.  This can be an even
longer process than the database searching, but you at least get the spelling
when it's there in an index as "kolace."
5. FORMS VARY--Is it "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing" or
"Winning isn't everything in pro football, it's the only thing"?  Is it "from
soup to nuts"?  What about "soup to walnuts"?  Or maybe it's something else
that doesn't use either "soup" or "nuts"?  Which brings me to the item below.

    To summarize, something like the British National Corpus is a tool, and
one tool only.  It is not Fred Shapiro.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
A SUCKER BORN EVERY DAY

   This is earlier than my NEW YORK TIMES cite.  It's "every day," not "every
minute."  And, as pointed out before, P. T. Barnum didn't say it.

   5 February 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 4, col. 4:
      _BUNKO_
_"A Sucker Born Every Day"_
_The Game in This and Other Cities--Harry Withrow's Arrest in Boston._
   A reporter asked a well-know bunko man one day how it was that people
still continued to be swindled by the same old process when the papers are
constantly warning them.  The reply was that there was a sucker born every
day.  And so it seems, for the old time scheme continues to be worked with
success all over the country.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
WINDY CITY

   We now have several 1883 citations in the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER.  Still,
when I present them to the TODAY show to correct them, no one listens.
   The first obvious one following that 16 January 1883 citation appears to
be this:

   8 February 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 2, col. 7:
   _CHICAGO LETTER_
_The Police, Fire and Signal System_
   _of the Windy City._

   Earlier in the 16 January 1883 editorials, the word "footstool" was used.
Perhaps the CINCINNATI ENQUIRER was thinking of this recent piece that it ran
on 6 January 1883, pg. 11, col. 4:

_Only a Breeze--The Windiest Place on the Footstool._
(Laramie (Wy.T.) Boomerang.)
   Among the many things which have tended to make Cheyenne noted all over
the world is the fact that it is the windiest spot on the footstool.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
SHEIDLOWER'S COCKTAILS

    As I said, I'll be in Africa.


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Dec 17 12:23:51 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:23:51 -0000
Subject: "A Sucker Born Every Day" (Feb. 5, 1883)
In-Reply-To: <10f.1bacdff8.2b305fcf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.122351.0000.>

> To summarize, something like the British National Corpus is a
> tool, and one tool only.

Yes, and to reiterate what I wrote yesterday such corpora are
statistical tools, not citational ones.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 17 13:35:18 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 08:35:18 EST
Subject: Lebkuchen
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.083518.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I can''t find the ADS-L message, I think from Barry Popik, about "lebkuchen"
so I don't know what the up-to-date antedating (isn't that an oxymoron?) may
be.

So:
Mrs. Simon Kander (Lizzie Black Kander), ed _The "Settlement" Cook Book:
Sixth Edition_ Milwaukee: n.p, no date but probably 1912.

pages 381f has a recipe for "LEBKUCHEN" and page 382 has a second recipe for
"LEBKUCHEN"

     - Jim Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 17 13:51:08 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 08:51:08 EST
Subject: Refrigerator
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.085108.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To add to the confusion about iceboxes versus refrigerators:

The 6th Edition (1912) of _The "Settlement" Cook Book_ contains two
advertisements from manufacturers of "refrigerators", namely Kiefer-Haessler
Hardware Co. and McCray Referigerator Co., both of Milwaukee.  There is no
way of telling from the ads whether these are mechanical refrigerators or
merely iceboxes.

Also, as a period piece, there is an ad for "Hoover Suction Sweepers", sold
by the Hoover Suction Sweeper Co. of New Berlin, Ohio.  (MWCD10 gives 1903
for "vacuum cleaner").

     - Jim Landau


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Dec 17 14:02:36 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:02:36 -0500
Subject: up a stump/calculate
In-Reply-To: <p05101024ba242bd9ffa6@[10.0.1.2]>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.090236.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Does anyone know if 'up a stump' as an idiom and 'I calculate' in the
>sense of 'I suppose' are used in Appalachian speech?  The sources I
>have found (DARE and the Dictionary of American Regionalisms) suggest
>that both are chiefly Northern.  Additionally, the idiom usually
>means 'to be pregnant'.  Can it have a more general meaning of simply
>'to be in trouble'?

"Up a stump" -- similar to "stumped" -- has a general sense of "perplexed"
or so (MW3: "perplexed", "nonplussed") (RHUD: "at a loss", "embarrassed",
"perplexed"). I don't know that this is regionally restricted. I've never
encountered the "pregnant" sense but it seems euphemistic like "in trouble".

Seems like the Appalachian version would be "reckon" instead of "calculate".

Just my casual notions.

-- Doug Wilson


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 17 15:25:40 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 10:25:40 -0500
Subject: /ei/ ~ /i:/ in "Kean"
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.102540.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My wife asks:

When I was listening to NPR last night, the reader said "Thomas Kane"
had been appointed to head the commission investigating 9/11. Who?
"The former governer of New Jersey" she went on. Gee, I thought, isn't
that Thomas Kean, pronounced "Keen"?

It is indeed. So my question is, did the reader misread her text, or are
there places where it is sometimes hard to distinguish a long e from a
long a?

-- Mark A. Mandel
   Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Dec 17 15:44:06 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 10:44:06 -0500
Subject: /ei/ ~ /i:/ in "Kean"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212171024580.80346853-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.104406.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark,

There is indeed if you suffer from established northernism, but they
remain quite distinct for southern US speakers. As is well-known (in
the so-called Southern Vowel Shift), /ay/ monophthongizes and shifts
front (so that "rhyme" sounds like something between "rom" and
"ram"). This leaves the /ay/ slot open, and /ey/ (what you call "long
a") lowers its onset, and, straynge to say, /ey/ sounds like /ay/.
Once /ey/ has fallen to /ay/, its space is vacated and the onset of
/iy/ ( what you call "long e") lowers into /ey/ space, giving just
the Kean ----> Kane result you are looking for.

dInIs.

>My wife asks:
>
>When I was listening to NPR last night, the reader said "Thomas Kane"
>had been appointed to head the commission investigating 9/11. Who?
>"The former governer of New Jersey" she went on. Gee, I thought, isn't
>that Thomas Kean, pronounced "Keen"?
>
>It is indeed. So my question is, did the reader misread her text, or are
>there places where it is sometimes hard to distinguish a long e from a
>long a?
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel
>    Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Dec 17 15:46:31 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 10:46:31 -0500
Subject: Namphrik and Ngapee (1874)
In-Reply-To: <2717A860.3C16CE01.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.104631.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Dec 14, 2002 at 08:26:49PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> THE LAND OF THE WHITE ELEPHANT:
> TRAVELS, ADVENTURES AND DISCOVERIES IN BURMA, SIAM, CAMBODIE, AND COCHIN-CHINA
> by Frank Vincent
> New York:  Harper and Brothers
> 1874
>
>    I read the 1884 book.  It has a 70-page supplement.  I'm sure the 1874 book is the same thing without the supplement, but I didn't have time to request it.
>    OED has an 1854 "ngapee" under its entry for "balachong."  I don't know what the revised OED has planned for this "N" entry.  "Ngapee" is from Burma.
>

We have a 1835 cite for _ngapi_.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 17 15:56:11 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 10:56:11 -0500
Subject: /ei/ ~ /i:/ in "Kean"
In-Reply-To: <a05010400ba24f4a95dfc@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.105611.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

#Mark,
#
#There is indeed if you suffer from established northernism, but they
#remain quite distinct for southern US speakers. As is well-known (in
#the so-called Southern Vowel Shift), /ay/ monophthongizes and shifts
#front (so that "rhyme" sounds like something between "rom" and
#"ram"). This leaves the /ay/ slot open, and /ey/ (what you call "long
#a") lowers its onset, and, straynge to say, /ey/ sounds like /ay/.
#Once /ey/ has fallen to /ay/, its space is vacated and the onset of
#/iy/ ( what you call "long e") lowers into /ey/ space, giving just
             ***

Not me, but my wife, highly literate but not a phonologist. I should've
added quote prefixes to her lines.

#the Kean ----> Kane result you are looking for.

Thank you.


#dInIs.
#
#>My wife asks:
#>
#>When I was listening to NPR last night, the reader said "Thomas Kane"
#>had been appointed to head the commission investigating 9/11. Who?
#>"The former governer of New Jersey" she went on. Gee, I thought, isn't
#>that Thomas Kean, pronounced "Keen"?
#>
#>It is indeed. So my question is, did the reader misread her text, or are
#>there places where it is sometimes hard to distinguish a long e from a
#>long a?
#>
#>-- Mark A. Mandel
#>    Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 17 16:36:39 2002
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:36:39 EST
Subject: /ei/ ~ /i:/ in "Kean"
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.113639.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Reagan
Yeats
great
yea
break
steak

I believe Tom pronounces his last name a la Irlandais

Dale Coye
Princeton, NJ


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Dec 17 16:36:33 2002
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 08:36:33 -0800
Subject: /ei/ ~ /i:/ in "Kean"
In-Reply-To: <a05010400ba24f4a95dfc@[35.10.92.179]>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.083633.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

However, in this case the NPR reader was neither misreading the name nor
giving it the pronunciation of a region "where it is sometimes hard to
distinguish a long e from a long a."  Thomas Kean was governor when I lived
in N.J., and his name was always pronounced [ke:n].

Peter Mc.

--On Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:44 AM -0500 "Dennis R. Preston"
<preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU> wrote:

> Mark,
>
> There is indeed if you suffer from established northernism, but they
> remain quite distinct for southern US speakers. As is well-known (in
> the so-called Southern Vowel Shift), /ay/ monophthongizes and shifts
> front (so that "rhyme" sounds like something between "rom" and
> "ram"). This leaves the /ay/ slot open, and /ey/ (what you call "long
> a") lowers its onset, and, straynge to say, /ey/ sounds like /ay/.
> Once /ey/ has fallen to /ay/, its space is vacated and the onset of
> /iy/ ( what you call "long e") lowers into /ey/ space, giving just
> the Kean ----> Kane result you are looking for.
>
> dInIs.
>
>> My wife asks:
>>
>> When I was listening to NPR last night, the reader said "Thomas Kane"
>> had been appointed to head the commission investigating 9/11. Who?
>> "The former governer of New Jersey" she went on. Gee, I thought, isn't
>> that Thomas Kean, pronounced "Keen"?
>>
>> It is indeed. So my question is, did the reader misread her text, or are
>> there places where it is sometimes hard to distinguish a long e from a
>> long a?
>>
>> -- Mark A. Mandel
>>    Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
>       Asian & African Languages
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
> e-mail: preston at msu.edu
> phone: (517) 353-9290



****************************************************************************
                               Peter A. McGraw
                   Linfield College   *   McMinnville, OR
                            pmcgraw at linfield.edu


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 17 16:56:26 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:56:26 -0500
Subject: /ei/ ~ /i:/ in "Kean"
In-Reply-To: <105.226176c6.2b30ac97@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.115626.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dale Coye said:
>Reagan
>Yeats
>great
>yea
>break
>steak
>
>I believe Tom pronounces his last name a la Irlandais
>

Exactly. There are still pockets in Ireland where reflexes of Middle
English /E:/ are /e(i)/ rather than /i/. John Harris and others have
written on this. I lived in the NY metro area for most of Kean's
governorship, and his name was always pronounced /e/.

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Mon Dec 16 22:49:19 2002
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:49:19 -0800
Subject: Cole Porter
Message-ID: <MON.16.DEC.2002.144919.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Too bad gramps invested in Pioneer Aviation--if he only woulda listened to Cole Porter, we coulda been rich.  Dang!!!
Fritz

>>> stevekl at PANIX.COM 12/16/02 07:55AM >>>
What amazes me most about Cole Porter is how, even in 1934, he knew which
items would have staying power. When you consider all of the brand names
around then that have since evaporated, it's extremely prescient on his
part to have chosen brands that now, in 2002, are still around:

You're the top! You're a Waldorf salad.
You're the top! You're a Berlin ballad.
You're a baby grand of a lady and a gent.
You're an old dutch master, You're Mrs. Aster,
You're Pepsodent.

  or

You're the top! You're a dance in Bali.
You're the top! You're a hot tamale.
You're an angel, you simply too, too, too diveen,
You're a Botticelli, You're Keats, You're Shelley,
You're Ovaltine.



-- Steve


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Tue Dec 17 18:21:40 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 13:21:40 -0500
Subject: /ei/ ~ /i:/ in "Kean"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212171054080.76078531-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.132140.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I did not mean to suggest that there was any shame attached to
>calling /iy/ "long e." Some of my best friends.....

dInIs

>On Tue, 17 Dec 2002, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>#Mark,
>#
>#There is indeed if you suffer from established northernism, but they
>#remain quite distinct for southern US speakers. As is well-known (in
>#the so-called Southern Vowel Shift), /ay/ monophthongizes and shifts
>#front (so that "rhyme" sounds like something between "rom" and
>#"ram"). This leaves the /ay/ slot open, and /ey/ (what you call "long
>#a") lowers its onset, and, straynge to say, /ey/ sounds like /ay/.
>#Once /ey/ has fallen to /ay/, its space is vacated and the onset of
>#/iy/ ( what you call "long e") lowers into /ey/ space, giving just
>              ***
>
>Not me, but my wife, highly literate but not a phonologist. I should've
>added quote prefixes to her lines.
>
>#the Kean ----> Kane result you are looking for.
>
>Thank you.
>
>
>#dInIs.
>#
>#>My wife asks:
>#>
>#>When I was listening to NPR last night, the reader said "Thomas Kane"
>#>had been appointed to head the commission investigating 9/11. Who?
>#>"The former governer of New Jersey" she went on. Gee, I thought, isn't
>#>that Thomas Kean, pronounced "Keen"?
>#>
>#>It is indeed. So my question is, did the reader misread her text, or are
>#>there places where it is sometimes hard to distinguish a long e from a
>#>long a?
>#>
>#>-- Mark A. Mandel
>#>    Linguistic Data Consortium, University of Pennsylvania

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics & Germanic, Slavic,
      Asian & African Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027
e-mail: preston at msu.edu
phone: (517) 353-9290


From bobbiestacy at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Dec 17 18:55:17 2002
From: bobbiestacy at HOTMAIL.COM (bobbie stacy)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 13:55:17 -0500
Subject: Remove from list please
Message-ID: <TUE.17.DEC.2002.135517.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20021217/3fc1338a/attachment.htm>

From dsgood at VISI.COM  Wed Dec 18 07:41:13 2002
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 01:41:13 -0600
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Word coinages in SF: threat or menace?
Message-ID: <WED.18.DEC.2002.014113.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From a discussion in the newsgroup rec.arts.sf.composition, a post of
mine:

------- Forwarded message follows -------

[snips]

> Good neologisms add a wonderful fillip to SF -- think of Jack Vance,
> Larry Niven, John Varley. Bad ones clunk every time they recur.
> Future slang & colloquial speech are particularly hard to do well.

See Allan Metcalf, _Predicting New Words: the secrets of their
success_; Houghton Mifflin, 2002.  The author is Executive Secretary
of the American Dialect Society.

>>From the American Dialect Society's website --
http://www.americandialect.com -- there are links to current studies
of various American and Canadian dialects, including trends in
pronunciation.

One thing to keep in mind -- many groups within any complex society
will have their own words. For example, Republican Party use of
"Democrat Party" rather than "Democratic Party".  For another
political example: in a memorial book on Bill Brust (Steve Brust's
father), his opposition to pabloism within the Socialist Workers
Party is mentioned more than once before there's any explanation of
what that means. (_Defending Principles: The Political Legacy of Bill
Brust_ by Bill Brust, Jean Brust (Editor) Mehring Books; ISBN:
0929087666; (November 1993)_).

It's hard to get the political dialect of a group you oppose right.

It's also hard to get _current_ regional dialects right. For your own
dialect, there's the problem that you won't hear it the way other
people do. For dialects other than your own -- well, I can think of
two English writers who've gotten American English right: Rudyard
Kipling and Clive Barker. (A tip for Brits -- read the "American"
dialog in John Brunner's _Day of The Star Cities_/Age of Miracles_.
If you don't spot any imperfections, then you'll have trouble getting
American dialog right.  And Brunner was better than a lot of other
Brits at American dialog.) The ratio is probably about the same for
Americans writing British dialog. It may not be much better for
southern Floridians writing northern Florida characters.

English of the past also brings problems, even if it's not quoted.
In Jack Chalker's _Downtiming the Nightside_, two men listen to tape
recordings of Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson.  One remarks
that most people would be surprised to hear Franklin's Boston accent
and Jefferson's hill country accent. It seems likely to me that
Franklin's Boston accent would be rather different from any current
Boston accent.

There are books and recordings for actors who need to use current and
historical dialects.

------- End of forwarded message -------


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Dec 18 10:24:51 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 05:24:51 -0500
Subject: FW: Using the BNC
Message-ID: <WED.18.DEC.2002.052451.0500.>

What Michael Q observed below, in response to Jonathon G's point, just about
nails it, in brief, re the value of a corpus to lexos (lexicographers).  One
could go on, but MQ has captured the essence of the value of a corpus to
lexicography -- a corpus allows research into collocational patterns and
other such phenomena that are at the heart of how the language works.  This
is impossible to research otherwise, at least not in any sort of depth (with
hats off to the BBI Combinatory Dict, etc.).

Other lexos, such as Sue Atkins and Patrick Hanks, are FAR more conversant
on the value of corpora to lexicography, so please seek them out -- or their
published works -- for more details and effusion.  Also, you could look at
the Intro to either the New Oxford Dictionary of English (UK), or its
transatlantic cousin, the New Oxford American Dictionary.  Both of these are
corpus-based, and, I think, the first general dicts to be corpus-based (the
Collins Cobuild is not a general dict, strictly speaking).

If I were to embark on a new general (not historical) dictionary project,
working from a "blank piece of paper", and were given a choice of having
either a good general corpus or a citation file, I would absolutely choose
the corpus -- in a heartbeat.  One can get citational evidence from OED,
MW3, etc., and can also do Googling and the like for specific word/sense
research.  But if you want to look at the core of the language down into the
nitty-gritty details, you can't beat a good, solid, contemporary corpus, as
long as it is extensive enough -- say, 100 million words AT LEAST.  The
bigger, the better.

Frank Abate

******************************
Jonathon Green wrote:

> what it does not do, however, is give a page number for the
> material cited. It gives a page range (presumably those read for
> the Corpus), e.g. 'pp. 62-165' and the number of  's-units' and the
> total word count, but, as I say, no page number as such. This, for
> my purposes, and I would imagine those of other lexicographers,
> renders it more interesting than practically helpful.

I don't use it (I don't have access to it), but I do use the cut-down
CD-ROM version that was produced some years ago. My understanding is
that its great value, as with other corpora, lies in the opportunity
it gives to identify and rank collocations and to assess the relative
importance and frequency of various forms in a balanced image of one
regional type of English.

As others have mentioned, this is something that a search of Google
cannot so easily do, since there are all sorts of systemic biases in
the material that it indexes. Where Google scores over corpora,
however, is that it is a different kind of snapshot, one of current
English that is to a significant degree free from the strictures of
good taste and editing. I've found it immensely useful, for example,
when trying to judge whether a form has gained wide currency as a
folk etymology (chaise lounge, bare with me, without further adieux,
etc).


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From sylvar at VAXER.NET  Wed Dec 18 13:34:22 2002
From: sylvar at VAXER.NET (Ben Ostrowsky)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 05:34:22 -0800
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Word coinages in SF: threat or menace?
In-Reply-To: <3DFFD239.27486.116A17A@localhost>
Message-ID: <WED.18.DEC.2002.053422.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> It may not be much better for southern Floridians writing northern
> Florida characters.

It probably isn't -- North Florida is part of the South, but South Florida
is about as far as you can get from it, culturally and (to my ear)
linguistically.  I had a LOT of adjusting to do when I moved from Miami
Springs, where I grew up, to Gainesville.

Ben


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Wed Dec 18 17:20:10 2002
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:20:10 -0500
Subject: The ANC (was: Using the BNC)
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAKENADGAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.18.DEC.2002.122010.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Anyone who is not aware that there is a consortium building an American
equivalent to the BNC should check out
http://americannationalcorpus.org/

A corpus is an invaluable tool that enhances and facilitates a
lexicographer's ability to analyze the behavior of language. It doesn't
replace citation cards/an electronic citation bank for etymological
purposes or for illustrations of the uses of words that predate the range
on the corpus. I would argue, however, that it should replace citations as
a main source of example sentences for uses that fall within the date range
represented in the corpus, particularly for the core of the language--the
most common words that are under-represented in citation banks because they
are not "interesting" as a focus of antedatings or neologisms. Corpora vary
according to their collection criteria: some are synchronic and some are
diachronic, with varying spans of years; some focus only on, say, newspaper
text, and others strive for a balanced range. The BNC (and the nascent ANC)
contains everything from highly edited text from scholarly journals to
ephmera. The ANC will contain e-mail. So it's not accurate to say that all
the texts in corpora are edited.

The key difference between a corpus and a bank of citation cards is that
citations center around a term that stuck out to the citation gatherer for
any number of reasons, and the surrounding context is usually quite short
(less than 250 words); a corpus, in contrast, contains long stretches of
uninterrupted text. This makes a corpus a superior tool for analyzing
frequency of use of common terms (invaluable for second language learners'
dictionaries), collocational behavior, and usage patterns.

People have argued that if a citation bank is in electronic format, it
amounts to a corpus, but I disagree: the stretches of text are simply too
short to attempt any meaningful analysis of discourse markers, argument
threads, and other rhetorical devices such as the way people set up stories
they are about to tell. It's very difficult to persuade people until they
sit down and actually USE a corpus--try, for example, to write the entry
for "set" using citation cards AND a corpus. I find that all doubt about
the value of a corpus disappears after that exercise.

Wendalyn Nichols
(advisor to the ANC consortium, and British-trained lexicographer)

At 05:24 AM 12/18/02 -0500, Frank Abate wrote:
>What Michael Q observed below, in response to Jonathon G's point, just about
>nails it, in brief, re the value of a corpus to lexos (lexicographers).  One
>could go on, but MQ has captured the essence of the value of a corpus to
>lexicography -- a corpus allows research into collocational patterns and
>other such phenomena that are at the heart of how the language works.  This
>is impossible to research otherwise, at least not in any sort of depth (with
>hats off to the BBI Combinatory Dict, etc.).
>
>Other lexos, such as Sue Atkins and Patrick Hanks, are FAR more conversant
>on the value of corpora to lexicography, so please seek them out -- or their
>published works -- for more details and effusion.  Also, you could look at
>the Intro to either the New Oxford Dictionary of English (UK), or its
>transatlantic cousin, the New Oxford American Dictionary.  Both of these are
>corpus-based, and, I think, the first general dicts to be corpus-based (the
>Collins Cobuild is not a general dict, strictly speaking).
>
>If I were to embark on a new general (not historical) dictionary project,
>working from a "blank piece of paper", and were given a choice of having
>either a good general corpus or a citation file, I would absolutely choose
>the corpus -- in a heartbeat.  One can get citational evidence from OED,
>MW3, etc., and can also do Googling and the like for specific word/sense
>research.  But if you want to look at the core of the language down into the
>nitty-gritty details, you can't beat a good, solid, contemporary corpus, as
>long as it is extensive enough -- say, 100 million words AT LEAST.  The
>bigger, the better.
>
>Frank Abate
>
>******************************
>Jonathon Green wrote:
>
> > what it does not do, however, is give a page number for the
> > material cited. It gives a page range (presumably those read for
> > the Corpus), e.g. 'pp. 62-165' and the number of  's-units' and the
> > total word count, but, as I say, no page number as such. This, for
> > my purposes, and I would imagine those of other lexicographers,
> > renders it more interesting than practically helpful.
>
>I don't use it (I don't have access to it), but I do use the cut-down
>CD-ROM version that was produced some years ago. My understanding is
>that its great value, as with other corpora, lies in the opportunity
>it gives to identify and rank collocations and to assess the relative
>importance and frequency of various forms in a balanced image of one
>regional type of English.
>
>As others have mentioned, this is something that a search of Google
>cannot so easily do, since there are all sorts of systemic biases in
>the material that it indexes. Where Google scores over corpora,
>however, is that it is a different kind of snapshot, one of current
>English that is to a significant degree free from the strictures of
>good taste and editing. I've found it immensely useful, for example,
>when trying to judge whether a form has gained wide currency as a
>folk etymology (chaise lounge, bare with me, without further adieux,
>etc).
>
>
>--
>Michael Quinion
>Editor, World Wide Words
>E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
>Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>
>
>
>For more information:http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dsna/index.html
>Post message: DSNA at yahoogroups.com
>Unsubscribe: DSNA-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Dec 18 22:56:42 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:56:42 -0500
Subject: Ngapi/Gnapee & Balachong (1830)(or 1825?)
Message-ID: <WED.18.DEC.2002.175642.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We have a 1835 cite for _ngapi_.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED

---------------------------------------------------------------
THE MODERN TRAVELLER.
A DESCRIPTION, GEOGRAPHICAL, HISTORICAL, AND TOPOGRAPHICAL, OF THE VARIOUS COUNTRIES OF THE GLOBE.
IN THIRTY VOLUMES.
by Josiah Conder
Volume the Eleventh
Burmah, Siam, &c.
London: James Duncan
1830
(The NYPL also has these volumes from 1825.  I asked for that, but I was given all 1830 volumes.  You can check OCLC Worldcat for the volume dates--ed.)

Pg. 149:  *_Gnapee_ is a sort of sprat, which, "half-pickled, half putrid," is (Pg. 150--ed.) a favorite sauce with the Birmans, as a relish to their rice.  _Zeik_ signifies a landing-place.

Pg. 157:  They were loaded chiefly with _gnapee_ and salt-fish...

Pg. 182:  From Martaban are exported tin, rice, wild cardamums, edible birds' nests from the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, and a species of caviare called _balachong_, compounded from the spawn of fish and pounded shrimps, made into thin cakes: great quantities of this article are consumed in (Pg. 183--ed.) Ava and by the Malays, but it is very disgusting to a European palate.

Pg. 292:  The food of the Siamese consists chiefly of rice, which is eaten with a substance called _balachong_, "a strange compound of things savoury and loathsome, but in such general use, that no one thinks of eating without some portion of it."

---------------------------------------------------------------
THE MODERN TRAVELLER.
by Josiah Conder
VOLUME THE FOURTEENTH
TURKEY
1830

Pg. 138:  "From the coffee-houses, we walked on to a _tabagie_ near _Koum-Kapoussi_, the next gate, where we dined upon _kebab_.  This dish, which any palate would reckon a delicacy, consists of mutton chopped in small bits, either with or without herbs, larded with milk and (Pg. 139--ed.) butter, and fried upon a wooden skewer over a small brazier."

(No "Turkish Delight."  I'm looking for food items in all thirty volumes, but this takes some time--ed.)


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 19 00:09:46 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 19:09:46 EST
Subject: The ANC (was: Using the BNC)
Message-ID: <WED.18.DEC.2002.190946.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm missing something.

Can't the World Wide Web be considered as a corpus?  Of the English-language
Web pages, most are contemporary, most are colloquial, and most are unedited.
 There exist search tools (such as the Google search engine that has been
discussed on this thread).

            - James A. Landau (the "A" stands for "Amateur")


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 19 04:53:36 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 23:53:36 -0500
Subject: Escargot and Bordelaise Sauce (1883); Kalbi (1966)
Message-ID: <WED.18.DEC.2002.235336.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ESCARGOT AND BORDELAISE SAUCE

   OED and MERRIAM-WEBSTER both have 1892 for "escargot."  OED has 1892 for "Bordeaux mixture."  MERRIAM-WEBSTER has 1902 for "Bordelaise sauce."
   "Escargot" was either introduced or popularized by the Delmonico's restaurant in New York.

   3 February 1883, CINCINNATI ENQUIRER, pg. 11, col. 7:
   _SNAILS AS A TABLE LUXURY._
_The Learned Barber Discourses on a_
   _Gastronomical Topic--Escargot, or_
   _Snail, on the Bill at Delmonico's as_
   _Often as the French Steamers Come_
   _In, and Served at Sixty cents a Portion._
   (New York Sun.)
(...)
   Escargot is to a Frenchman what pumpkin pie and turkey are to the Yankee.
(...)
   "Are they sold in cans?"
   "Yes; they are put up like sardines.  There is the _pate escargot_, which is a sort of paste; and there is a _sirop escargot_, which is a liquid, and is delicious when served with Bordelaise sauce.  As I said before, the merit of _escargot_ as a food depends very much upon the sauce with which it is served.
(...)

   From HARPER'S WEEKLY, 1 September 1860, pg. 555:

. . . the
empire was ransacked for the finest and fattest
specimens. The practice of fattening snails for the
table lasted for many centuries; and there were to
be found many establishments for this purpose,
known as escargotieres, in France, Belgium, Swit-
zerland, and Austria, during the last century.
     Like the frog, the snail never found many ad-
mirers in England as a comestible; but in France,
especially . . .

   A little earlier is MAKING OF AMERICA (Michigan, Books), William Makepeace Thackeray, PUNCH'S PRIZE NOVELISTS: THE FAT CONTRIBUTOR, AND TRAVELS IN LONDON (NY: D. Appleton and Company, 1853), pg. 80, "Over a _salmi d'escargot_ at the Coventry..."
  Also a little earlier is MAKING OF AMERICA (Michigan, Periodicals), APPLETON'S JOURNAL, January 1879, pages & &8, February 1879, pages 99 & 102.
  These last two, however, are European "escargot" cites.
  MAKING OF AMERICA (Michigan, Periodicals) has THE GALAXY, October 1867, pg. 150, "Mushrooms sautee, a la Bordelaise," and THE GALAXY, April 1868, pg. 475, "ecrivesses a la Bordelaise."

---------------------------------------------------------------
KALBI

   Kalbi, or Kal bi, are Korean short ribs, and I saw them in many places in Hawaii.  There is no OED entry.  "Korean short ribs" has over 8,000 Google hits.

   30 December 1966, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 29:
   ...a well conceived menu that also lists several Korean dishes including bulkoki (broiled marinated beef) and kalbi (broiled short ribs of beef).
(Tamura Restaurant on Liberty Street--ed.)

   January 1971, GOURMET magazine:
   Short ribs, broiled,
      Korean (Kalbi Kai)...44


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 19 07:14:51 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 02:14:51 -0500
Subject: Gnapee/Ngapi (1800); Mohinga (1963)
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.021451.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   This shows just how foreign food spellings can vary.  I never would have looked for "gnapee" for "ngapi" on a computer database.
   OED certainly should have added "Mohinga."  This is a national dish of Burma, but I didn't see it in the 19th century.  "Mohinga" has an entry in THE OXFORD COMPANION TO FOOD.

---------------------------------------------------------------
AN ACCOUNT OF AN EMBASSY TO THE KINGDOM OF AVA
IN THE YEAR 1795
by Michael Symes
London: W. Bulmer and Co.
1800
New Delhi: Asian Education Services
1995

Pg. 501 (GLOSSARY):
_Gnapee_, a species of Sprat which the Birmans pickle.

---------------------------------------------------------------
MICHAEL SYMES:
JOURNEY OF HIS SECOND EMBASSY TO THE COURT OF AVA IN 1802
edited with introduction and notes by D. G. E. Hall
London: George Allen & Unwin Ltd.
1955

Pg. 171:  ...ghee*...
*Hindi word for boiled butter in universal use in Indian cookery.

Pg. 241:  ...gnapee*...
*Pickled prawns, the most popular condiment eaten with curry in Burma.

---------------------------------------------------------------
JOURNAL OF AN EMBASSY FROM THE GOVERNOR GENERAL OF INDIA TO THE COURT OF AVA
by John Crawfurd
Second edition
London: Henry Colburn
1834

VOLUME ONE
Pg. 172:  He gets besides _ngapi_, vegetables, and spiceries, being always fed with his employer and family.

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 176:  Sea-fish was commonly cured in the form of Ngapi, or "bruised fish," the offensive condiment which I have already mentioned, and which is an article of universal use throughout the kingdowm.

---------------------------------------------------------------
A PERSONAL NARRATIVE OF TWO YEARS' IMPRISONMENT IN BURMAH
by Henry Gouger
Second edition
London: John Murray
1862

Pg. 55:  ...a daily mess of boiled rice, with _ngapwee_ and wild vegetables, formed a meagre fare to one who had been long used to a generous one.

---------------------------------------------------------------
THROUGH BURMAH TO WESTERN CHINE:
BEING NOTES OF A JOURNEY IN 1863
by Clement Williams
Edinburgh: William Blackwood and Sons
1868

Pg. 61:  Large quantities are dried and made into "Ngapee,"*...
*_Ngapee_--a kind of fish-paste greatly relished by the Burmese.

---------------------------------------------------------------
BURMA, PAST AND PRESENT
by Lieut.-Gen. Albert Fytche
London: C. Kegan Paul and Co.
1878

VOLUME TWO
Pg. 77:   ...amongst the latter, and without which no Burmese considers he has made a good dinner is _nga-pee_, a potent preparation, somewhat resembling anchovy paste, composed of prawns and fish fry, pounded with chillies, garlic, and other condiments.

---------------------------------------------------------------
BRITISH BURMA AND ITS PEOPLE:
BEING SKETCHES OF NATIVE MANNERS, CUSTOMS, AND RELIGION
by Capt. C. J. E. S. Forbes
London: John Murray
1878

Pg. 83:  "Nga-pee" means simply pounded fish, and differs in quality, from the best, made of shrimps, being the same as the "balachong" of the Malay Straits (a kind of shrimp paste) to the rankest filth used by the mass of the population.

---------------------------------------------------------------
THE BURMAN: HIS LIFE AND NOTIONS
by Shway Yoe (pseud. of Sir James George Scott--ed.)
London: Macmillan and Co., Limited
First edition 1882
Second edition 1896
Third edition 1910

Pg. 280:
CHAPTER XXVII
NGAPI
THERE are few articles of food which meet with more energetic denunciation than the favourite Burman condiment, ngapi, which means literally pressed fish.

---------------------------------------------------------------
WE THE BURMESE:
VOICES FROM BURMA
edited by Helen G. Trager
New York: Frederick A. Praeger
1969

Pg. 288 (GLOSSARY):
   _Monhinga_ (mo hing'ah) a fish soup; sold by street peddlers ar roadside stalls or charcoal-fire pots.
(...)
   _Ngapi_ (nap pee') a paste of dried salted fish, which adds flavor to many dishes.

---------------------------------------------------------------
YMCA BANGKOK, THAILAND
COOK BOOK
1963

Pg. 89:
   _Mohinga--Burmese National Dish_
   Serves 20
Ingredients
   9 lbs. rice noodles (Khanom Kyin)
   2 1/2 lbs. Pla Doke
   1 coconut
   1 1/2 oz. salted fish (Pla la)
   14 oz. fish sauce (Nam pla)
   3 blades lemon grass
   3 1/2 oz. chillies
   1 tsp. turmeric powder
   fresh ginger
   2 oz. garlic
   1 1/2 lb. onions, 1/2 finely sliced
   3 1/2 oz. Baysun
   4 oz. rice flour
   14 oz. oil
   6 duck eggs (hard boiled)
   9 inches Banana trunk (if unprocurable, increase amount of onion)
Directions
   Boil fish with 2 blades lemon grass, fish sauce, 3 chillies, salted fish, turmeric powder with water just to cover the fish.  When done, take the fish out and remove the bones.  Pound the garlic, the ginger, 1 blade lemon grass, and 1/2 of remaining chillies (other half to be powdered and served in dish at table).  Fry to golden brown 1/2 onions, sliced.  Boil up the oil, add the pounded ingredients.  When they give forth an aroma, add the fish.  Remove and set aside as accompaniment.  Boil together coconut milk, fish broth, and 1 gallon water.  Mix the rice flour and the Baysun each with a little water, and add to the liquid ingredients.  Boil about 1/2 hour.  Clean, peel and slice the tender inner layers of the banana trunk.  Add this and 1/2 of onions cut in quarters.  When tender, add fish and the (Pg. 90--ed.) hard-boiled eggs cut in quarters.  The hinga, the above gravy, is served hot with rice noodles, at table, in separate serving dishes, only combined in the individual servings.
   Powdered chillies and fried onion slivers or rings, lime wedges served as accompaniments at table.
   (Baysun may be purchased at Indian spice shops).

---------------------------------------------------------------
YMCA BANGKOK, THAILAND
COOK BOOK
1965

Pg. 28:  We must not end this chapter without mentioning nam pla which is an extract of fermented fish.  This sauce, which is more tasty than it sounds, is used in many Thai dishes.


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Thu Dec 19 09:30:40 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:30:40 -0000
Subject: The ANC (was: Using the BNC)
In-Reply-To: <16.29feabaa.2b32684a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.093040.0000.>

James A. Landau wrote:

> Can't the World Wide Web be considered as a corpus?  Of the
> English-language Web pages, most are contemporary, most are
> colloquial, and most are unedited. There exist search tools (such
> as the Google search engine that has been discussed on this
> thread).

It's an invaluable research tool for certain purposes.

But, as I mentioned earlier, the text on the Web is full of systemic
biases that make using it for corpus purposes a risky business. It's
impossible, for example, to restrict a search to a specific national
English form (or even text produced by native English speakers), to a
particular register, or even a given period (there's a surprisingly,
albeit pleasantly, large amount of historical material online, even
outside the formal e-text collections such as Project Gutenberg).

The tools to research it in the same way as one does a corpus don't
exist; I'm not at all sure how easy it would be to create them for
such an inchoate mass of material.

Having said that, I've used Web searches - for example - to get a
feel for the relative frequency of occurrence of terms, though even
here the presence of so many glossaries and Weird Words sites (guilty
as charged, M'Lud) biases the results substantially for rare items.


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Dec 19 06:42:41 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 01:42:41 -0500
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.014241.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Can someone help this man?

D?but du message r?exp?di? :

> De: David Skinner <david.skinner at tsd.state.tx.us>
> Date: Wed 18 Dec 2002  21:00:10 America/New_York
> ?: <gbarrett at americandialect.org>
> Objet: standard passage
> R?pondre ?: David Skinner <david.skinner at tsd.state.tx.us>
>
> Did the ADS ever use something called the standard passage. A ling
> professor once referred to it and played some examples of various
> people reading it.
>
> If this rings a bell, i'd like to find a copy of it. Any help would be
> greatly appreciated.
>
>
> Thank you
>
>


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec 19 13:27:59 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 08:27:59 -0500
Subject: FW: The ANC (was: Using the BNC)
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.082759.0500.>

Michael Q replied to James L's query as shown below.

I would merely add that by "tools to research it" Michael means, in part,
software that will display related "hits" in concordance format, sortable to
the left or to the right of the key word/phrase, and sortable to a
specifiable range of letters or words.  Also, proximity searches are
essential.

If someone could write software that would do just THAT much (there are
other useful corpus-searching tools, too, but the ones mentioned would do,
for a start) with Web data, then yes, the Web would be a corpus, in the lexo
sense.  It would not be "balanced", but it would be a corpus, and MUCH more
useful than it is now for lexo research (lexical, too).

If you need to see what concordance format looks like, see the Intro to
either the New Oxford Dict of English (UK) or the New Oxford American Dict.
Many US libraries have the latter.

Oh, btw, even if the Web were a corpus, we would still need researchers such
as Fred Shapiro and Barry Popik, not to mention a bunch of lexos and
linguists.  And we would not throw out our citation files -- different tool,
for a different purpose.

Frank Abate

************************************

James A. Landau wrote:

> Can't the World Wide Web be considered as a corpus?  Of the
> English-language Web pages, most are contemporary, most are
> colloquial, and most are unedited. There exist search tools (such
> as the Google search engine that has been discussed on this
> thread).

It's an invaluable research tool for certain purposes.

But, as I mentioned earlier, the text on the Web is full of systemic
biases that make using it for corpus purposes a risky business. It's
impossible, for example, to restrict a search to a specific national
English form (or even text produced by native English speakers), to a
particular register, or even a given period (there's a surprisingly,
albeit pleasantly, large amount of historical material online, even
outside the formal e-text collections such as Project Gutenberg).

The tools to research it in the same way as one does a corpus don't
exist; I'm not at all sure how easy it would be to create them for
such an inchoate mass of material.

Having said that, I've used Web searches - for example - to get a
feel for the relative frequency of occurrence of terms, though even
here the presence of so many glossaries and Weird Words sites (guilty
as charged, M'Lud) biases the results substantially for rare items.


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From jkossuth at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Thu Dec 19 14:49:38 2002
From: jkossuth at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (James Kossuth)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:49:38 -0500
Subject: [DSNA] The Web as a Corpus
In-Reply-To: <NFBBKBPMKLKNJGANHOEAOENMDGAA.abatefr@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.094938.0500.>

There is a free downloadable app that is supposed to make
the Web somewhat more valuable as a corpus and is
available at http://www.miniappolis.com/.  It does provide
results in KWIC format.  I'ven't used it yet myself, but it
seems like it might be useful.

James.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 19 16:30:53 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:30:53 EST
Subject: The Web as a corpus
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.113053.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I found an answer to my (deliberately) naive query about using the Web as a
corpus.

>From the latest OED News:

"We have for several decades used electronic databases to aid this work,
notably the British National Corpus and Lexis-Nexis. Now, with the arrival of
the Internet, tens of thousands of scholarly texts and individual works of
literature are available to us in a searchable form.

"However, bigger isn't necessarily better: we need to be discriminating. A
search engine, such as Google, provides a scattergun approach, returning a
vast set of results with no indication of the date or reliability of sources.
We are therefore most interested in material that has been collected together
in databases, where we are able to carry out sophisticated searches (by date,
in proximity to other terms, etc.) and where we can rely on the provenance of
the information we are viewing."

          - Jim Landau


From GHurley at OVID.COM  Thu Dec 19 20:49:28 2002
From: GHurley at OVID.COM (Gerry Hurley)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:49:28 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.154928.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi,

I'm a librarian and my husband asked me if I could find out
the derivation of the word "oaktag" (that kind of heavy paper
we all used in kindergarten).  It's also called tagboard and
sometimes posterboard.  I'm drawing a blank. I've searched
the web, looked at art web sites; used the paper and pulp
encyclopedia, dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc.  I can find
definitions and explanations of what oaktag it, but I can't find
any info on why/how the word came into being.

Another librarian suggested that this group might be
able to help me.  Thanks in advance for any assistance
you might be able to provide.

Gerry Hurley
email:  ghurley at ovid.com


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 19 23:39:06 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:39:06 EST
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.183906.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In American Speech 59.1 for Spring 1984, Laurence Urdang has a paragraph
speculating on the etymology of "oaktag" : ". . . "oaktag" is a dark beige,
which may account for the "oak-" part of its name. In the 1930s and later,
shipping tags were often made of this material, typically with a hole at one
end, reinforced with a stiff red circular grommet and a short piece of cord
for tying to a package. It seems likely to me that the universal application
of the stock to such use accounts for the "-tag" part of "oaktag." This is,
of course, a folk eytmology -- but then, "oaktag" appears to be a folk name,
doesn't it?"

He notes that in a previous issue (57.3 for fall 1982, p 189), David Gold had
suggested that "oaktag" is a New York City (and Newark, New Jersey) word. But
FWIW, it's not in the Dictionary of American Regional English.

It is notable, also, that "oaktag" is not in the Oxford English Dictionary or
American Heritage or Merriam-Webster's Collegiate.

- Allan Metcalf


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec 20 00:14:28 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:14:28 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <12f.1e2e92cc.2b33b29a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.191428.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 AAllan at AOL.COM wrote:

#In American Speech 59.1 for Spring 1984, Laurence Urdang has a paragraph
        [...]

#He notes that in a previous issue (57.3 for fall 1982, p 189), David Gold had
#suggested that "oaktag" is a New York City (and Newark, New Jersey) word. But
#FWIW, it's not in the Dictionary of American Regional English.

I knew the word growing up in NYC in the 50s-60s. I'm pretty sure I
learned it from my mother, who was an art teacher in the public high
schools. She had herself grown up in NYC (born 1922) and was an amateur
artist and an interior decorator before becoming a teacher.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Fri Dec 20 00:28:42 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:28:42 -0600
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.182842.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW on my end: I grew up in Minnesota, and have lived "Up North" (MN, MI,
WI) my whole life.  I had never heard it called "oaktag" until this question
came up.  Now, I have not been an elementary school art teacher either...
But to me, it has always been "tagboard" or "poster board".  This might lend
some more credence to the "NY-Thang" theory.  Where are you checking in
from, Gerry?  -- Millie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerry Hurley" <GHurley at OVID.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag


> Hi,
>
> I'm a librarian and my husband asked me if I could find out
> the derivation of the word "oaktag" (that kind of heavy paper
> we all used in kindergarten).  It's also called tagboard and
> sometimes posterboard.  I'm drawing a blank. I've searched
> the web, looked at art web sites; used the paper and pulp
> encyclopedia, dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc.  I can find
> definitions and explanations of what oaktag it, but I can't find
> any info on why/how the word came into being.


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec 20 00:56:52 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:56:52 -0500
Subject: The ANC (was: Using the BNC)
In-Reply-To: <3E0191C0.31324.31216A@localhost>
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.195652.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Michael Quinion wrote:

#The tools to research it in the same way as one does a corpus don't
#exist; I'm not at all sure how easy it would be to create them for
#such an inchoate mass of material.

This is an interesting semantic shift that I think is on-topic here.
"Inchoate" means -- used to mean? -- 'just beginning to take form'. ...
Ah; AHD4 says:

        >>>

1. In an initial or early stage; incipient. 2. Imperfectly formed or
developed: "a vague, inchoate idea".

        <<<

But almost every time I have seen it used in current writing, the sense
seems to be simply 'vague or formless'. I'm certain, without being able
to prove it, that for many people the sense is strongly influenced by
the visual similarity of the part after the prefix to "chaotic".

I'm not sure how you meant it, Michael, but the Web certainly isn't
'incipient' any more, and in your use above I think the sense I describe
fits somewhat better than AHD4's #2 -- but I can't be sure.

Lexies, are you keeping up with this development? Me, I've got my
prescriptivist hat on, and I'm agin it.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 20 01:06:21 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:06:21 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212191912390.80394054-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.200621.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote:

> #He notes that in a previous issue (57.3 for fall 1982, p 189), David
> Gold had #suggested that "oaktag" is a New York City (and Newark, New
> Jersey) word. But #FWIW, it's not in the Dictionary of American Regional
> English.
>
> I knew the word growing up in NYC in the 50s-60s. I'm pretty sure I

I also knew the word growing up on Long Island in the 1960s.  The earliest
on New York Times Historical is:

1965 _N.Y. Times_ 26 June 15 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers)  The youths
followed the shirt-sleeved candidate down Seventh Avenue, displaying
oaktag placards that read: "Lindsay -- a traitor to the G.O.P."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 01:17:06 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:17:06 EST
Subject: WOTY:  "All These Problems"
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.201706.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   No Word-of-theYear nominations yet?  Is everyone waiting for the very last
day?
   No "soccer mom" or "chad" or "9-11" really stands out.  Let me be the
first to nominate Trent Lott's now infamous phrase, "all these problems."
   Suggestions and comments on WOTY remain open.


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec 20 01:19:43 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:19:43 -0500
Subject: WOTY:  "All These Problems"
In-Reply-To: <69.3228eec2.2b33c992@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.201943.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

#   No "soccer mom" or "chad" or "9-11" really stands out.  Let me be the
#first to nominate Trent Lott's now infamous phrase, "all these problems."
#   Suggestions and comments on WOTY remain open.

"Weapons of mass destruction".

-- Mark A. Mandel


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 02:09:19 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:09:19 EST
Subject: Dogcatcher elections (1906); Fired With Enthusiasm (1932?); Chile
 con carne
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.210919.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DOGCATCHER ELECTIONS

   You used to hear this phrase all the time.  However, it seems to have
disappeared, with most of the dogcatchers.  Trent Lott's star has fallen so
fast, for example, that he "couldn't get elected dog-catcher."
   I didn't see it in the RHHDAS or in William Safire's POLITICAL DICTIONARY.
 It's not in the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG.
   I think it did start with the below-mentioned candidate.  I haven't
checked the WASHINGTON POST.


   10 October 1906, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 2:
      _Hearst in California._
   "Hearst couldn't be elected dog catcher in any part of my State," declared
State Treasurer Truman Reeves of California yesterday to Mayor McClellan, on
whom he paid a social call.

   1 April 1968, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 28:
   Of the President (LBJ--ed.), she said, "I think he saw the opposition
growing so great that he couldn't run for dog catcher and would rather go
down in history as having done his best than be defeated in November."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
FIRED WITH ENTHUSIASM

   Not to be confused with CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM, the HBO show by Larry David,
a co-creator of SEINFELD.   Perhaps Fred Shapiro has some thoughts on the
purported Vince Lombardi coinage.


   7 September 1970, NEW YORK TIMES, "Lombardi Without Tears" by Robert
Lipsyte, pg. 24:
   WIth the same personality and a lesser intelligence, Lombardi would never
have been able to tell men that they had better be "fired with enthusiasm or
you'll be fired with enthusiasm."

   16 September 1932, NEW YORK TIMES< pg. 16:
   Eugene Savage, mural painter, said that if the student going to the
American Academy in Rome "was not fired with enthusiasm, he should be fired
by the director."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
CHILE CON CARNE

   Supposedly, the first "chile con carne" citation is 1857.  Supposedly,
it's an American dish.  John Mariani's encyclopedia includes that famous
quotation that chile con carne is "a detestable food with a false Mexican
title which is sold in the United States from Texas to New York."
   So what do you make of this, which I came across today?


MEMOIRS OF THE MEXICAN REVOLUTION
by William Davis Robinson
Philadelphia: Lydia R. Bailey, printer
1820

Pg. 71:  ..."the end justifies the means."

Pg. 84:  ..._rancho_*...
*_Rancho_ signifies a farm...

Pg. 150:  ..._chile_ (capsicum_)...
Pg. 150:  For all culinary purposes, this vegetable is as essential to the
Mexican, as salt is to the European, and indeed more so, because a Mexican
would rather go without bread, than lack chile with his meat.

(Yes, no "chile con carne," but "chile with his meat" is close--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
BORDELAISE SAUCE (continued)

   I added the WIlliam Makepeace Thackeray citation for "escargot," but left
off that he has one for "Bordelaise sauce" as well.  It's on LITERATURE
ONLINE and another database (MOA-Mich. books?).
   William Makepeace Thackeray, THE ADVENTURES OF PHILIP ON HIS WAY THROUGH
THE WORLD (1860; NY: Harper Brothers, 1862), pg. 144:  "Aren't you tired of
truffles and ecrevisses a la Bordelaise;..."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------
PORTOBELLO MUSHROOMS

   The NEW YORK TIMES article is 23 October 1985, pg. C1, "Growing U.S. Taste
for Mushrooms."


From GHurley at OVID.COM  Fri Dec 20 02:37:21 2002
From: GHurley at OVID.COM (Gerry Hurley)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:37:21 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.213721.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi Millie,

My husband and I both grew up in New York City (Manhattan).
We now live in Arlington, MA (near Boston).  The person who
asked my husband about the derivation of oaktag is a designer
he is working with on a project.  She lives in Connecticut.

Thanks to all of you for the fascinating and helpful responses.
If you ever have a "librarian" type question, do contact me.
I'll try to help.

Gerry Hurley


-----Original Message-----
From: Millie Webb
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Sent: 12/19/2002 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Derivation of the word oaktag

FWIW on my end: I grew up in Minnesota, and have lived "Up North" (MN,
MI,WI) my whole life.  I had never heard it called "oaktag" until this
question came up.  Now, I have not been an elementary school art teacher
either... But to me, it has always been "tagboard" or "poster board".  This
might lend some more credence to the "NY-Thang" theory.  Where are you
checking in from, Gerry?
-- Millie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerry Hurley" <GHurley at OVID.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag


> Hi,
>
> I'm a librarian and my husband asked me if I could find out
> the derivation of the word "oaktag" (that kind of heavy paper
> we all used in kindergarten).  It's also called tagboard and
> sometimes posterboard.  I'm drawing a blank. I've searched
> the web, looked at art web sites; used the paper and pulp
> encyclopedia, dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc.  I can find
> definitions and explanations of what oaktag it, but I can't find
> any info on why/how the word came into being.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 03:14:09 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:14:09 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.221409.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   16 January 1949, NEW YORK TIMES, classifieds, pg. F14:
PAPER PRODUCTS...oaktag board.

   2 June 1963, NEW YORK TIMES, classified, pg. 155:
Oak tag all colors...GEM PAPER 594 Bway NY.

(I don't have time for an in-depth search because I'm leaving the country within 24 hours...COMPLETELY O.T.  _Now_ my Nets beat the Lakers!--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 03:26:55 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:26:55 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag (1922?)
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.222655.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From OCLC WORLDCAT:


 Reconnaissance map of state road no. 5, September 1922,
Washington (State).

1922
English  Book broadside.
[Olympia,
Ownership: Check the catalogs in your library.
Libraries that Own Item: 1

External Links:  Check availability

More Like This: Advanced options ...
Title: Reconnaissance map of state road no. 5, September 1922,
Corp Author(s): Washington (State). Dept. of Highways.
Publication: [Olympia,
Year: 1922
Description: broadside.
Language: English
 SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Roads -- Washington (State)
Note(s): Hand-drawn map, accompanied by 48 3 x 6 in. photos along the route, mounted on a sheet of oaktag.
Responsibility: Chas. I. Signer.
Document Type: Book
Entry: 19921214
Update: 19990712
Accession No: OCLC: 41822215
Database: WorldCat


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 03:36:09 2002
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:36:09 EST
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
Message-ID: <THU.19.DEC.2002.223609.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think this must refer to the rat story that Fred Cassidy used at DARE? My 
memory is pretty hazy about this, however. 


In a message dated 12/19/02 8:12:17 AM, gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes:


> Can someone help this man?
> 
> D?but du message r?exp?di? :
> 
> > De: David Skinner <david.skinner at tsd.state.tx.us>
> > Date: Wed 18 Dec 2002? 21:00:10 America/New_York
> > ?: <gbarrett at americandialect.org>
> > Objet: standard passage
> > R?pondre ?: David Skinner <david.skinner at tsd.state.tx.us>
> >
> > Did the ADS ever use something called the standard passage. A ling
> > professor once referred to it and played some examples of various
> > people reading it.
> >
> > If this rings a bell, i'd like to find a copy of it. Any help would be
> > greatly appreciated.
> >
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> >
> 
> 


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 07:55:27 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:55:27 -0500
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938); Pozole (1934); Bint El Sahn (1932)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.025527.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BUMPY STEW

   I was looking for something else, but never mind.  I have a soft spot for the food of our women's colleges.


   July 1938, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, pg. 25, cols. 1-2:
   Silhouetted there against the dusk were the iron words "St. Mary's Female Seminary."
   A SEMINARY SERVES BUMPY STEW
   The principal asked me to dinner.  "We're having a seminary special, bumpy stew."
   The school was founded about a hundred years ago to give life again to this long-forsaken site, and to help keep alive in Maryland the spirit of religious tolerance.  DIrectors are Methodist, Catholic, and Episcopalian, the faiths then and now represented in the county.
   "Our teachers--they're of many creeds--come from everywhere," my hostess said.  "Girls must worship, but as they like.  We would accept Mohammedans or Buddhists.  I wish we had some.  Catholic, Jewish, or Presbyterian, they all like bumpy stew.  Married alumnae write for the recipe."
   "I'd like it myself," I said.
   "Fry chopped onions in butter until they're brown.  Then fry ground beef in the mixture until that's brown.  Sprinkle with flour; add milk, salt, and pepper.  Keep stirring until it gets bumpy.  Then," she added, "it's bumpy stew."

---------------------------------------------------------------
POZOLE

   December 1934, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, pg. 784, col. 2:
   Outside, several persons lay dozing, while an old woman stirred a caldron of boiling corn called _pozole_.

(From Central America...Does "pozole" exist yet or does one still need more proof?--ed.)

---------------------------------------------------------------
NEW MEXICO "CHILI PROVERB"

   May 1938, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, "Nature Paints New Mexico," pg. 561 photo caption:
   "All a peon needs to furnish his house is a string of red peppers and the picture of a saint" is an old Southwest saying.  This colorful crop was picked near Espanola, not far from the Santa Clara Pueblo Indian Reservation.  "Chili con carne," or peppers and meat--with a tamale or enchilada of cornmeal--is a popular repast here as in Mexico.

---------------------------------------------------------------
BINT EL SAHN

   February 1932, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, pg. 231, col. 2:
   One of our favorite foods was _bint el sahn_, or "daughters of the dish."  This was brought in, still sizzling hot, in enormous covered woven baskets.
   Under the cover was layer after layer of very thin bread circles.  The indigo-turbaned servant next brought in a pitcher of steaming melted butter and poured it generously over the top and between the layers.  It was a delectable dish.


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Dec 20 08:29:40 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 00:29:40 -0800
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <12f.1e2e92cc.2b33b29a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.002940.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>He notes that in a previous issue (57.3 for fall 1982, p 189), David Gold had
>suggested that "oaktag" is a New York City (and Newark, New Jersey) word. But
>FWIW, it's not in the Dictionary of American Regional English.
>
>It is notable, also, that "oaktag" is not in the Oxford English Dictionary or
>American Heritage or Merriam-Webster's Collegiate.

When mentioning oaktag after moving to California, no one here had
ever heard of it.  They all used poster board or some such.  I
definitely got the feeling it was a New York City term (like sliding
pond?).

Rima


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Dec 20 09:24:24 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:24:24 -0000
Subject: The ANC (was: Using the BNC)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212191949410.80394054-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.092424.0000.>

Mark Mandel wrote:

> But almost every time I have seen it used in current writing, the
> sense seems to be simply 'vague or formless'. I'm certain, without
> being able to prove it, that for many people the sense is strongly
> influenced by the visual similarity of the part after the prefix to
> "chaotic".
>
> I'm not sure how you meant it, Michael, but the Web certainly
> isn't 'incipient' any more, and in your use above I think the sense
> I describe fits somewhat better than AHD4's #2 -- but I can't be
> sure.

Interesting point. Though the Web could well be described in the
OED's definition as "in an initial or early stage; hence elementary,
imperfect, undeveloped, immature", I used the word in the sense of a
disorganised mass of material. This sense has appeared in a number
of recent dictionaries, always as subsidiary senses: NODE ("confused
or incoherent"), SOED5 ("chaotic, confused"), RHWU ("not organized;
lacking order"), and in the MW unabridged ("disordered; incoherent;
unorganized").

The Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage says:

"A number of British commentators, beginning with Ivor Brown 1945
and running through Gowers in Fowler 1965, Howard 1977, and Bryson
1984, complain about the extension of meaning of inchoate from
'incipient, immature, or just beginning' (Howard's definitions) to
'amorphous, incoherent, or disorganized' (Howard again). A couple of
American commentators, Flesch 1964 and Shaw 1987, agree. But the
extended use is natural and probably inevitable: what is just begun
is also unfinished, incomplete, and often also disorganized or
incoherent. There is no need to bring forward a putative confusion
with chaotic to explain the development. And unfortunately for the
complainers, the extension of meaning was already three decades old
or more when Brown noticed it."

In confirmation of this last point, the editors cite material from
works that date back as far as 1916, written by the likes of T E
Lawrence, Thomas Wolfe, John Updike, and Norman Mailer.

Not yet mainstream, I agree, and probably sufficiently likely to
raise readers' hackles (like my recent use in the World Wide Words
newsletter of "gift" as a verb, which American subscribers hated) to
require care in deploying.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Dec 20 09:24:24 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:24:24 -0000
Subject: WOTY:  "All These Problems"
In-Reply-To: <69.3228eec2.2b33c992@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.092424.0000.>

Barry Popik wrote:

> No Word-of-theYear nominations yet?  Is everyone waiting for the
> very last day? No "soccer mom" or "chad" or "9-11" really stands
> out.  Let me be the first to nominate Trent Lott's now infamous
> phrase, "all these problems." Suggestions and comments on WOTY
> remain open.

Has anybody nominated "regime change"?


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Dec 20 06:03:26 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 01:03:26 -0500
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.010326.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From my dialectology notes it's called "Grip the Rat."  It's found in
several places.  Sumner Ives used the version found in Gleason's
overview of grammars, the title of which escapes me at this hour.  I
googled _Grip the rat_ and found nothing.

Regards,
David Barnhart


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 10:26:44 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:26:44 EST
Subject: WOTY Weapons; My Heart Is in My Hand or Mouth
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.052644.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WOTY WEAPONS

   "Weapons of mass destructions" is a bit old--not that that matters for
WOTY competition.
   I did a "weapons insp*" search in the online OED.  I was looking for
"weapons inspection(s)" and "weapons inspector(s)."  There were no hits.
These are not new, either, but perhaps deserve a look.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
MY HEART IS IN MY HAND OR MOUTH

"My heart is in my hand...YEECH!"
--Tom Lehrer, "Masochism Tango"

"Architect Robert A. M. Stern compared the Seagram Building's artwork to the
Sistine Chapel and said, 'My heart is in my mouth, I'm so upset.'"
--NEW YORK OBSERVER, December 23-30, 2002. pg. 4, col. 1.

   At least someone's heart is in the right place.
   I did a "hand-to-mouth" Google search.  Hand (& Hands) wins 300-160 in
Google, 963-793 in Google Groups. Hands down.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---------------------------------------------
O.T. NEW YORK CITY

   It's good to get out of NYC at this time of the year, as those of you
coming to NYC for the MLA will soon learn.
   About two days ago, I got a Co-op memo.  Our taxes are increasing 18.5%.
Plus, we have a new terrorism insurance requirement that amounts to $188,000
a year.  That's about $1,000 a unit each year, just so we can collect in the
event we're all killed.  We're going bankrupt all over again.
   I hope you MLA-ers don't need to smoke...


From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Fri Dec 20 12:35:27 2002
From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 07:35:27 -0500
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
In-Reply-To: <msg57519.thr-81bed73d.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.073527.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Grip the Rat" dates back into at least the early 30s.  The name was later
changed to Arthur.  It was used in the DARE field wor, and the text may be
found in the article on pronunciation by Hartmann is DARE Volume I.




Quoting Barnhart <ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM>:

> From my dialectology notes it's called "Grip the Rat."  It's found in
> several places.  Sumner Ives used the version found in Gleason's
> overview of grammars, the title of which escapes me at this hour.  I
> googled _Grip the rat_ and found nothing.
>
> Regards,
> David Barnhart
> This message scanned by RAV anti-virus.
>



**************************
Terry Lynn Irons


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 13:31:28 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:31:28 EST
Subject: End of year request..
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.083128.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Would it be possible to configure the list-server so that "ADS" will appear
at the beginning of the subject line of every post?  I know this is possible
in the major-domo listserver; I don't know if it's an option in the LSOFT
listserv software used (I believe) by ADS-L.

It's not particularly important, but I belong to two other mailing lists
which have this feature, and it makes it quite convenient to be able to look
at my in-box and see which messages are from mailing lists.

      - James A. Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 13:34:41 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:34:41 EST
Subject: WOTY
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.083441.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An obvious candidate for 2002 Word-of-the-year is "Enron" used as a metaphor.

      - James A. Landau


From pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU  Fri Dec 20 13:40:36 2002
From: pfarr at UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU (Peter Farruggio)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 05:40:36 -0800
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0212192004060.29666-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu >
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.054036.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>


This was the common term for that posterboard material in the NYC schools
throughout my student career in the 1950s.  In fact I never knew of any
other name for it until I had non-native New Yorkers as teachers, sometime
in high school.


At 05:06 PM 12/19/02, you wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote:
>
> > #He notes that in a previous issue (57.3 for fall 1982, p 189), David
> > Gold had #suggested that "oaktag" is a New York City (and Newark, New
> > Jersey) word. But #FWIW, it's not in the Dictionary of American Regional
> > English.
> >
> > I knew the word growing up in NYC in the 50s-60s. I'm pretty sure I
>
>I also knew the word growing up on Long Island in the 1960s.  The earliest
>on New York Times Historical is:
>
>1965 _N.Y. Times_ 26 June 15 (ProQuest Historical Newspapers)  The youths
>followed the shirt-sleeved candidate down Seventh Avenue, displaying
>oaktag placards that read: "Lindsay -- a traitor to the G.O.P."
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
>Yale Law School                             forthcoming
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Dec 20 13:56:02 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:56:02 -0000
Subject: End of year request..
In-Reply-To: <1a4.df13db5.2b3475b0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.135602.0000.>

> Would it be possible to configure the list-server so that "ADS"
> will appear at the beginning of the subject line of every post?  I
> know this is possible in the major-domo listserver; I don't know if
> it's an option in the LSOFT listserv software used (I believe) by
> ADS-L.

It's a standard feature on LISTSERV. It is indeed very convenient.
All you have to do is send a message from the e-mail address at which
you are subscribed to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU (note, not to the
list address you use when posting messages) with the message text

    SET ADS-L SUBJ


--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Fri Dec 20 14:21:00 2002
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:21:00 -0500
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938)
In-Reply-To: <22AFAF4F.18607BC4.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.092100.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:55 AM 12/20/2002 -0500, Mr. Popik wrote:
>BUMPY STEW
>
>    July 1938, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, pg. 25, cols. 1-2:
>    Silhouetted there against the dusk were the iron words "St. Mary's
> Female Seminary."
>    A SEMINARY SERVES BUMPY STEW
>
>    "Fry chopped onions in butter until they're brown.  Then fry ground
> beef in the mixture until that's brown.  Sprinkle with flour; add milk,
> salt, and pepper.  Keep stirring until it gets bumpy.  Then," she added,
> "it's bumpy stew."


My grandmother (b. 1918) used to make this, mom (b. 1938) picked it up and
now I make it and serve it over noodles or some other starchy thing. But,
we've never had a name for it. My mother swears that her grandfather (b.
1886), a PA Dutch Mennonite, had a PA Dutch name for it. Anybody have any
idea what that was? Or what it's called elsewhere? Nowadays we just call it
"Grandma Bessie's hamburger gunk," but I'm pretty sure we're the only ones ;-)



Katy


Kathleen E. Miller
Research Assistant to William Safire
The New York Times


From GHurley at OVID.COM  Fri Dec 20 14:08:32 2002
From: GHurley at OVID.COM (Gerry Hurley)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:08:32 -0500
Subject: WOTY suggestion
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.090832.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What about "googled" - I'm hearing that everywhere now, but hadn't about
up to about two months ago.

Gerry Hurley


From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM  Fri Dec 20 14:31:20 2002
From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:31:20 -0500
Subject: WOTY considerations
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.093120.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Botox party:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/Botoxparty.asp

chicken hawk:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/chickenhawk.asp

corporate perp walk:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/corporateperpwalk.asp

Enronomics:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/Enronomics.asp

Fifth Amendment capitalist:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/FifthAmendmentcapitalist.asp

homicide bombing:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/homicidebombing.asp

Iraqnophobia:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/Iraqnophobia.asp

office-park dad:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/office-parkdad.asp

regime change:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/regimechange.asp

threat fatigue:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/threatfatigue.asp

war chalking:
http://www.wordspy.com/words/warchalking.asp

Paul
http://www.wordspy.com/


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Dec 20 14:38:57 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 06:38:57 -0800
Subject: WOTY Weapons
In-Reply-To: <6f.329b8b3f.2b344a64@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.063857.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting Bapopik at AOL.COM:

> WOTY WEAPONS
>
>    "Weapons of mass destructions" is a bit old--not that that matters for
> WOTY competition.
>    I did a "weapons insp*" search in the online OED.  I was looking for
> "weapons inspection(s)" and "weapons inspector(s)."  There were no hits.
> These are not new, either, but perhaps deserve a look.

"Weapons inspector" may not exactly be new, but I don't recall it ever being
used within the arms control community. Instead we used "arms control
inspector" for the general term, and then the treaty or organization (e.g., INF
inspector, CWC inspector, UNSCOM inspector, IAEA inspector) when specificity
was required.

"UNMOVIC" is another one to consider for WOTY. Maybe too arcane though.

And there is "dirty bomb" (referring to a radiological weapon, not one that
creates fallout). That's fairly recent in vintage (1993 is what I've traced it
to), although it's already fading from memory after a brief flurry of scary
government announcements.

I would second Michael Quinion's suggestion of "regime change."

And of course there is "homeland security." (Did we consider this last year?)
Interesting and new use of "homeland" in a US political context and it's likely
to be with us for a while, as the a name of a bureaucratic entity if nothing
else.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 20 14:58:51 2002
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:58:51 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0212192004060.29666-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.095851.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred Shapiro said:
>On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote:
>
>>  #He notes that in a previous issue (57.3 for fall 1982, p 189), David
>>  Gold had #suggested that "oaktag" is a New York City (and Newark, New
>>  Jersey) word. But #FWIW, it's not in the Dictionary of American Regional
>>  English.
>>
>>  I knew the word growing up in NYC in the 50s-60s. I'm pretty sure I
>
>I also knew the word growing up on Long Island in the 1960s.  The earliest
>on New York Times Historical is:

Westchester County (just north of NYC)--we used oaktag also, but I
was familiar with poster board. I'm not sure whether I thought these
were two words for the same thing or two different types of material.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU  Fri Dec 20 15:09:44 2002
From: GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU (Gordon, Matthew J.)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:09:44 -0600
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.090944.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Arthur the Rat" can be found at the DARE site: http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html

-----Original Message-----
From:   Terry Irons [mailto:t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU]
Sent:   Fri 12/20/2002 6:35 AM
To:     ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Cc:	
Subject:             Re: Fwd: standard passage

"Grip the Rat" dates back into at least the early 30s.  The name was later
changed to Arthur.  It was used in the DARE field wor, and the text may be
found in the article on pronunciation by Hartmann is DARE Volume I.




Quoting Barnhart <ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM>:

> From my dialectology notes it's called "Grip the Rat."  It's found in
> several places.  Sumner Ives used the version found in Gleason's
> overview of grammars, the title of which escapes me at this hour.  I
> googled _Grip the rat_ and found nothing.
>
> Regards,
> David Barnhart
> This message scanned by RAV anti-virus.
>



**************************
Terry Lynn Irons


From jyeh at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Fri Dec 20 15:08:17 2002
From: jyeh at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Judy Yeh)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:08:17 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.2.20021220053736.02f3d080@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.100817.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I heard "oaktag" while attending elementary school in Jamaica, Queens,
from 1985-1990. My teachers were all middle-aged or elderly, and I think
they grew up (or at least lived most of their lives) in Queens, in
neighborhoods like Flushing and Fresh Meadows. Come to think of it, I
don't think my classmates used the term--only the teachers did--and I
never heard it again after I finished elementary school. Many (perhaps
most) of the teachers at my high school did not grow up in New York
City.

Judy Yeh


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Fri Dec 20 15:46:44 2002
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Hall)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:46:44 -0600
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <12f.1e2e92cc.2b33b29a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.094644.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David Gold is working on this currently.  Sorry I don't have his address.

At 06:39 PM 12/19/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>In American Speech 59.1 for Spring 1984, Laurence Urdang has a paragraph
>speculating on the etymology of "oaktag" : ". . . "oaktag" is a dark beige,
>which may account for the "oak-" part of its name. In the 1930s and later,
>shipping tags were often made of this material, typically with a hole at one
>end, reinforced with a stiff red circular grommet and a short piece of cord
>for tying to a package. It seems likely to me that the universal application
>of the stock to such use accounts for the "-tag" part of "oaktag." This is,
>of course, a folk eytmology -- but then, "oaktag" appears to be a folk name,
>doesn't it?"
>
>He notes that in a previous issue (57.3 for fall 1982, p 189), David Gold had
>suggested that "oaktag" is a New York City (and Newark, New Jersey) word. But
>FWIW, it's not in the Dictionary of American Regional English.
>
>It is notable, also, that "oaktag" is not in the Oxford English Dictionary or
>American Heritage or Merriam-Webster's Collegiate.
>
>- Allan Metcalf


From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Fri Dec 20 15:40:02 2002
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:40:02 -0500
Subject: End of year request..
In-Reply-To: <1a4.df13db5.2b3475b0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.104002.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

> It's not particularly important, but I belong to two other mailing lists
> which have this feature, and it makes it quite convenient to be able to look
> at my in-box and see which messages are from mailing lists.

You should be able to filter your email so that all emails from ADS go
into their own folder; I do -- it makes my life a lot easier. I can check
on ADS stuff separate from regular email.

I have all my different mailing lists filtered into separate folders.
Check the documentation of your email program. If you use PINE, it's super
easy.

-- Steve


From TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM  Fri Dec 20 15:48:36 2002
From: TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM (Joyce, Thomas F.)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:48:36 -0600
Subject: End of year request..
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.094836.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I use a filter to route all ADS messages to a specific directory.  Your mail program should be able to do it.

Tom Joyce

-----Original Message-----
From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM]
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 7:31 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: End of year request..


Would it be possible to configure the list-server so that "ADS" will appear
at the beginning of the subject line of every post?  I know this is possible
in the major-domo listserver; I don't know if it's an option in the LSOFT
listserv software used (I believe) by ADS-L.

It's not particularly important, but I belong to two other mailing lists
which have this feature, and it makes it quite convenient to be able to look
at my in-box and see which messages are from mailing lists.

      - James A. Landau


------------------------------------------
The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged,
confidential, and protected from disclosure.  If you are not the
intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly
prohibited.  If you think that you have received this e-mail message in
error, please delete it and notify the sender.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 20 15:51:13 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:51:13 EST
Subject: Triction (Truth or Fiction?)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.105113.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I forgot to add this.  From the NEW YORK OBSERVER, December 23-30, 2002,
pg. 1, col. 2:

_Paging Mary McCarthy!_
_Barris and Hitler:_
_Strange Triction_
-------------------------------------
_The Gong Show of Fact:_
_Cusack Tells Adolf,_
_"You're Hard to Like"_
By RON ROSENBAUM
   Where is Mary McCarthy now that we need her?  Now that we seem to be
entering into a moment in culture in which truth and fiction are routinely
blurred to the point that an entirely new hybrid genre seems to have been
created: one that might be called "triction."  (...)

(Off to Zanzibar!  Be back January 11th, if New York and I both survive that
long--ed.)


From davemarc at PANIX.COM  Fri Dec 20 15:53:58 2002
From: davemarc at PANIX.COM (davemarc)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:53:58 -0500
Subject: WOTY considerations
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.105358.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I still think "blog" warrants serious consideration.

d.


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Fri Dec 20 16:47:06 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:47:06 -0800
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938)
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021220090521.00b04ed0@smtp-store.nytimes.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.084706.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I know this dish as "Hamburger gravy" usually served over rice or other
starch.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Kathleen E. Miller wrote:
>
> My grandmother (b. 1918) used to make this, mom (b. 1938) picked it up and
> now I make it and serve it over noodles or some other starchy thing. But,
> we've never had a name for it. My mother swears that her grandfather (b.
> 1886), a PA Dutch Mennonite, had a PA Dutch name for it. Anybody have any
> idea what that was? Or what it's called elsewhere? Nowadays we just call it
> "Grandma Bessie's hamburger gunk," but I'm pretty sure we're the only ones ;-)
>
>
>
> Katy
>
>
> Kathleen E. Miller
> Research Assistant to William Safire
> The New York Times
>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Dec 20 16:48:10 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:48:10 -0500
Subject: WOTY considerations
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.114810.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I like "blog" and its derivation blogger.  Blogs are a genuine social phenomenon, and they have the advantage of not being a transient political development.  (The terms, of course, may turn out to be transient anyway, but I'm pretty sure that the phenomenon is around to stay.)

        The terms seem to be pretty new.  The domain name blogger.com was registered on June 22, 1999, according to Register.com's WHOIS database, and I haven't seen any earlier uses of either word than that.  A diligent Google Groups search might find something, but there are a lot of unrelated uses of "blog" that make it difficult to search.  As for the underlying term "weblog," the Robot Wisdom Weblog FAQ claims that it was the first to use the term "weblog," in December 1997.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: davemarc [mailto:davemarc at PANIX.COM]
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 10:54 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: WOTY considerations


I still think "blog" warrants serious consideration.

d.


From self at TOWSE.COM  Fri Dec 20 19:06:22 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:06:22 -0800
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938)
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.110622.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Kathleen E. Miller" wrote:
>
> At 02:55 AM 12/20/2002 -0500, Mr. Popik wrote:
> >BUMPY STEW
> >
> >    July 1938, NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC MAGAZINE, pg. 25, cols. 1-2:
> >    Silhouetted there against the dusk were the iron words "St. Mary's
> > Female Seminary."
> >    A SEMINARY SERVES BUMPY STEW
> >
> >    "Fry chopped onions in butter until they're brown.  Then fry ground
> > beef in the mixture until that's brown.  Sprinkle with flour; add milk,
> > salt, and pepper.  Keep stirring until it gets bumpy.  Then," she added,
> > "it's bumpy stew."
>
> My grandmother (b. 1918) used to make this, mom (b. 1938) picked it up and
> now I make it and serve it over noodles or some other starchy thing. But,
> we've never had a name for it. My mother swears that her grandfather (b.
> 1886), a PA Dutch Mennonite, had a PA Dutch name for it. Anybody have any
> idea what that was? Or what it's called elsewhere? Nowadays we just call it
> "Grandma Bessie's hamburger gunk," but I'm pretty sure we're the only ones ;-)

Known here simply as "Hamburger Gravy." I like the "Bumpy Stew"
name a lot better. The recipe is something the other half brought
to the household a quarter century ago. I'd never encountered it
before. Usually served over mashed potatoes, although noodles or
rice also work. We add a bit of cinnamon or mace for that je ne
sais quoi.

Sal
--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From self at TOWSE.COM  Fri Dec 20 19:09:12 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:09:12 -0800
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.110912.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Judy Yeh wrote:
>
> I heard "oaktag" while attending elementary school in Jamaica, Queens,
> from 1985-1990. My teachers were all middle-aged or elderly, and I think
> they grew up (or at least lived most of their lives) in Queens, in
> neighborhoods like Flushing and Fresh Meadows. Come to think of it, I
> don't think my classmates used the term--only the teachers did--and I
> never heard it again after I finished elementary school. Many (perhaps
> most) of the teachers at my high school did not grow up in New York
> City.

Raised in California, Bay Area. Never heard the word until it
came up in this question. So is it poster board or isn't it?

Sounds like a trademark-gone-generic sort of derivation.

Sal
--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM  Fri Dec 20 20:57:28 2002
From: TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM (Joyce, Thomas F.)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:57:28 -0600
Subject: WOTY considerations
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.145728.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about "the events of September 11 . . ."?  I don't recall its having achieved formulaic status by this time last year.

------------------------------------------
The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged,
confidential, and protected from disclosure.  If you are not the
intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination,
distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly
prohibited.  If you think that you have received this e-mail message in
error, please delete it and notify the sender.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Dec 20 21:07:10 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:07:10 -0800
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <3E036AD8.841A12A6@towse.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.130710.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Raised in California, Bay Area. Never heard the word until it
> came up in this question. So is it poster board or isn't it?
>
> Sounds like a trademark-gone-generic sort of derivation.


I was raised in New Jersey and the term is familiar from my school days.
Haven't heard it in years though. It is a thin poster board, beige in color.
Similar to the material used to make manila folders.

I am guessing that the "-tag" is from "tagboard," which the OED2 has from 1912
and refers to its use to make luggage tags. The "oak," and this is a shakier
guess, is from the color.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From positive_pcr at HOTMAIL.COM  Fri Dec 20 21:30:25 2002
From: positive_pcr at HOTMAIL.COM (positive pcr)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:30:25 -0500
Subject: My vote for Word of the Year: Blogging
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.163025.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm not certain when blogs/blogging/weblogs first appeared in the language
but I feel as if they reached a certain critical mass in the year 2002.

--Graham

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 3 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU=
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 20 21:40:46 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:40:46 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <005201c2a7be$c1bc8ea0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.164046.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:28 PM -0600 12/19/02, Millie Webb wrote:
>FWIW on my end: I grew up in Minnesota, and have lived "Up North" (MN, MI,
>WI) my whole life.  I had never heard it called "oaktag" until this question
>came up.  Now, I have not been an elementary school art teacher either...
>But to me, it has always been "tagboard" or "poster board".  This might lend
>some more credence to the "NY-Thang" theory.  Where are you checking in
>from, Gerry?  -- Millie

Not everyone from NY knows from "oaktag".  Neither my wife nor I (b.
1944/45) is familiar with the term--we've always called it "poster
board".

Larry


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Dec 20 22:21:24 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:21:24 -0800
Subject: My vote for Word of the Year: Blogging
In-Reply-To: <F130X7Z0ALxjDClZ5my0001942a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.142124.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting positive pcr <positive_pcr at HOTMAIL.COM>:

> I'm not certain when blogs/blogging/weblogs first appeared in the language
> but I feel as if they reached a certain critical mass in the year 2002.

I would have said 2001 was the year of the blog. But being in Silicon Valley
perhaps I'm a bit more attuned to the latest tech trends.


--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Fri Dec 20 22:25:22 2002
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:25:22 -0500
Subject: WOTY considerations
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.172522.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

the new verb, to Winona

beth lee simon
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Fri Dec 20 22:43:52 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:43:52 -0600
Subject: End of year request..
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.164352.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, please try as Thomas suggests.  All you do is set an e-mail message
"rule" to put everything with ADS in the from line to a folder created just
for them within your in-box.  I could never keep any of this straight if I
had not done that from the beginning.  I am impressed you could do so thus
far, Jim.  -- Millie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joyce, Thomas F." <TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: End of year request..


> I use a filter to route all ADS messages to a specific directory.  Your
mail program should be able to do it.
>
> Tom Joyce
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James A. Landau [mailto:JJJRLandau at AOL.COM]
> Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 7:31 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: End of year request..


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec 20 22:48:15 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:48:15 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag (1922?)
In-Reply-To: <73BC7937.6A18E38C.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.174815.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 19 Dec 2002 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote [I have abridged]:

#>From OCLC WORLDCAT:
# Reconnaissance map of state road no. 5, September 1922,
#Washington (State).

#Note(s): Hand-drawn map, accompanied by 48 3 x 6 in. photos along the
#route, mounted on a sheet of oaktag.

#Responsibility: Chas. I. Signer.
#Document Type: Book
#Entry: 19921214
        ^^^^
 This looks like the date of the annotation -- Dec. 14, 1992, in a
format I use myself because it sorts correctly -- subject to the update
in the following line. So I don't think we have an early citation here.

#Update: 19990712

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec 20 22:53:53 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:53:53 -0500
Subject: End of year request..
In-Reply-To: <004b01c2a879$455bd2b0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.175353.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:

#Yes, please try as Thomas suggests.  All you do is set an e-mail message
#"rule" to put everything with ADS in the from line to a folder created just
#for them within your in-box.  I could never keep any of this straight if I
#had not done that from the beginning.  I am impressed you could do so thus
#far, Jim.  -- Millie

"All you do" is harder in some programs than others... :-( I think I
have to figure out PROCMAIL in order to do this.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From self at TOWSE.COM  Fri Dec 20 23:21:12 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:21:12 -0800
Subject: End of year request..
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.152112.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark A Mandel wrote:
>
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:
>
> #Yes, please try as Thomas suggests.  All you do is set an e-mail message
> #"rule" to put everything with ADS in the from line to a folder created just
> #for them within your in-box.  I could never keep any of this straight if I
> #had not done that from the beginning.  I am impressed you could do so thus
> #far, Jim.  -- Millie
>
> "All you do" is harder in some programs than others... :-( I think I
> have to figure out PROCMAIL in order to do this.

I have the [ADS-L] label in the subject line.

Send a note to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU *from* the e-mail
address your subscription is under. In the body of the note have

SET ADS-L SUBJ

The basic commands &c. are explained here:
<http://www.americandialect.org/adsl.html>

To get all the LISTSERV commands and see what other trouble you
can get up to, send a note to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU with the
message

INFO REFCARD

Best,
Sal

--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 20 23:34:18 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:34:18 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag (1922?)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212201745480.87564329-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.183418.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Mark A Mandel wrote:

>  This looks like the date of the annotation -- Dec. 14, 1992, in a
> format I use myself because it sorts correctly -- subject to the update
> in the following line. So I don't think we have an early citation here.

Yes, as a librarian I can say that this looks like a 1992 citation, not a
1922 citation.  Search results from WorldCat or Eureka need to be
scrutinized carefully for the real date of the document cataloged.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 21 00:33:41 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:33:41 EST
Subject: WOTY considerations
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.193341.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks everyone for the nominations! I have been lurking and listing
everything, and will bring the lists to our nominating session Friday morning
January 3. More fuel for the fire, here's the short list from Wayne Glowka,
conductor of "Among the New Words" in _American Speech_. - Allan Metcalf

Wayne's Words


apatheist   Person believing that God or gods exist but are not of any use


comprendo-challenged   Unable to understand the US Constitution


dialarhoea   Tendency of a cell phone to make a call when left in a pocket

or bag with keypad unlocked


grid butt   Marks left on buttocks by fishnet pantyhose


gun-rack dad   Conservative swing voter in Central and Western Pennsylvania


Saddameter   Meter used by a television news show to indicate how close war

with Iraq seems on a given day


201(k)   Retirement account ruined by stock losses (used in 2001 but

prominent in 2002)


unorthodox entrepreneur   Panhandler, drug addict, or prostitute displaced

by movie makers in Vancouver, BC, parks



undryuppable   Resistant to desiccation (of a marker)


urban de-newal   Replacement of government projects and buildings with a

neighborhood


wombanization   Feminization


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sat Dec 21 01:14:13 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:14:13 -0500
Subject: End of year request..
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212201753130.87564329-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.201413.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Dec 20, 2002 at 05:53:53PM -0500, Mark A Mandel wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Millie Webb wrote:
>
> #Yes, please try as Thomas suggests.  All you do is set an e-mail message
> #"rule" to put everything with ADS in the from line to a folder created just
> #for them within your in-box.  I could never keep any of this straight if I
> #had not done that from the beginning.  I am impressed you could do so thus
> #far, Jim.  -- Millie
>
> "All you do" is harder in some programs than others... :-( I think I
> have to figure out PROCMAIL in order to do this.

I'm no fan of procmail--in fact, I'm something of an enemy--but a
procmail recipe to send all ADS-L mail into a separate folder is
as simple as adding this to your existing .procmailrc:

----- begin recipe -----
:0:
* ^TOADS-L
$HOME/adslmessages
----- end recipe -----

with "adslmessages" being the name of your desired mailfolder.
I keep my regular ADS-L mail in my main mailbox, but I route
list error messages and other administrative mail into a
separate folder.

Jesse Sheidlower


From vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET  Sat Dec 21 01:13:41 2002
From: vidamorkunas at TELUS.NET (vida morkunas)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:13:41 -0800
Subject: WOTY considerations
In-Reply-To: <153.193c048d.2b3510e5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.171341.0800.>

>dialarhoea   Tendency of a cell phone to make a call when left in a pocket
or bag with keypad unlocked

oh, what an image!

in Canada, this has been referred to as a 'pocket call'

cheers -

Vida.
vidamorkunas at telus.net

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of AAllan at AOL.COM
Sent: December 20, 2002 4:34 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: WOTY considerations


Thanks everyone for the nominations! I have been lurking and listing
everything, and will bring the lists to our nominating session Friday
morning
January 3. More fuel for the fire, here's the short list from Wayne Glowka,
conductor of "Among the New Words" in _American Speech_. - Allan Metcalf

Wayne's Words


apatheist   Person believing that God or gods exist but are not of any use


comprendo-challenged   Unable to understand the US Constitution


dialarhoea   Tendency of a cell phone to make a call when left in a pocket

or bag with keypad unlocked


grid butt   Marks left on buttocks by fishnet pantyhose


gun-rack dad   Conservative swing voter in Central and Western Pennsylvania


Saddameter   Meter used by a television news show to indicate how close war

with Iraq seems on a given day


201(k)   Retirement account ruined by stock losses (used in 2001 but

prominent in 2002)


unorthodox entrepreneur   Panhandler, drug addict, or prostitute displaced

by movie makers in Vancouver, BC, parks



undryuppable   Resistant to desiccation (of a marker)


urban de-newal   Replacement of government projects and buildings with a

neighborhood


wombanization   Feminization


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Dec 21 01:19:15 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:19:15 -0500
Subject: End of year request..
In-Reply-To: <3E03A5E8.293E32@towse.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.201915.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        [Millie W]
#> #Yes, please try as Thomas suggests.  All you do is set an e-mail message
#> #"rule" to put everything with ADS in the from line to a folder created just
#> #for them within your in-box.

        [Mark M]
#> "All you do" is harder in some programs than others... :-( I think I
#> have to figure out PROCMAIL in order to do this.

        [Towse]
#I have the [ADS-L] label in the subject line.
#
#Send a note to LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU *from* the e-mail
#address your subscription is under. In the body of the note have
        [...]

I've just done that. That will tell *the listserver* to put "[ADS-L]" in
the subject line of messages that are sent to me. They will arrive at my
inbox, where they will continue to be listed along with everything else
until I work out how to tell *my mail program* to do something special
with them on the basis of that string, namely, file them in my "ads"
folder. My mail program, pine, is ancient but it works nicely with a
text-only interface, which makes it good for a slow dialup connection
such as I have here as well as (knock on wood) immune to viruses. As far
as I can tell, my only recourse for separate filing is to figure out the
intricacies of procmail, which, like most Unix programs, is
user-friendly only for certain very special values of "user" and
"friendly".

However, having this string in the subject line will help *me*
prioritize my mail reading as I scan the "table of contents" of the
inbox.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Dec 21 01:27:29 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:27:29 -0500
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
In-Reply-To: <2209664F1C807643B7FA01C8230C0F994341C7@col-mailnode03.col.missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.202729.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote:

#"Arthur the Rat" can be found at the DARE site:
#http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html

I just got this message, displayed here verbatim by copy-&-paste:
        >>>>>

   The information in this page is displayed in frames. Either You have
   the frame feature of your browser turned off. Or Your using a very old
   browser..Please Update for viewing

        <<<<<
What do people think of
 1: its user-friendliness?
 2: its grammaticality?
 3: its suitability to the DARE website?

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Dec 21 01:33:45 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:33:45 -0500
Subject: The ANC (was: Using the BNC)
In-Reply-To: <3E02E1C8.11927.2B6475@localhost>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.203345.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Michael Quinion wrote:

#Interesting point. Though the Web could well be described in the
#OED's definition as "in an initial or early stage; hence elementary,
#imperfect, undeveloped, immature", I used the word in the sense of a
#disorganised mass of material. This sense has appeared in a number
#of recent dictionaries, always as subsidiary senses:
        [...]

#The Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage says:
#
        [...]
#                       But the
#extended use is natural and probably inevitable: what is just begun
#is also unfinished, incomplete, and often also disorganized or
#incoherent. There is no need to bring forward a putative confusion
#with chaotic to explain the development. And unfortunately for the
#complainers, the extension of meaning was already three decades old
#or more when Brown noticed it."
#
#In confirmation of this last point, the editors cite material from
#works that date back as far as 1916, written by the likes of T E
#Lawrence, Thomas Wolfe, John Updike, and Norman Mailer.

Mmmm!! Thank you for the survey and history. I guess I'll have to
suppress my curmudgeonly impulses on this one from now on.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From funex79 at SLONET.ORG  Sat Dec 21 01:45:49 2002
From: funex79 at SLONET.ORG (Jerome Foster)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:45:49 -0800
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.174549.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I attended elementary school in Brooklyn in the 30's (P.S.105, P.S.103, and
J.H.S.220 to be specific) and oak tag was the common name for a rather
rough, yellow-tan heavy paper or light cardboard used for vaious art
projects and similar uses.

J Foster






----- Original Message -----
From: "Judy Yeh" <jyeh at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 7:08 AM
Subject: Re: Derivation of the word oaktag


> I heard "oaktag" while attending elementary school in Jamaica, Queens,
> from 1985-1990. My teachers were all middle-aged or elderly, and I think
> they grew up (or at least lived most of their lives) in Queens, in
> neighborhoods like Flushing and Fresh Meadows. Come to think of it, I
> don't think my classmates used the term--only the teachers did--and I
> never heard it again after I finished elementary school. Many (perhaps
> most) of the teachers at my high school did not grow up in New York
> City.
>
> Judy Yeh


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Dec 21 01:48:45 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:48:45 -0500
Subject: WOTY
In-Reply-To: <12b.1e0b83ef.2b347671@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.204845.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

#An obvious candidate for 2002 Word-of-the-year is "Enron" used as a metaphor.

Including verbally. The company I worked for was bought by a competitor
and enronned.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Sat Dec 21 01:52:21 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:52:21 -0500
Subject: WOTY considerations
In-Reply-To: <021401c2a834$77293430$ef9afea9@paul>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.205221.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Paul McFedries wrote:

#Fifth Amendment capitalist:
#http://www.wordspy.com/words/FifthAmendmentcapitalist.asp

That's a new one to me. I hereby coin "First Amendment capitalist",
referring to those who invoke the right of freedom of speech to protect
their advertising, no matter how repulsive or destructive it may be.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Dec 21 02:26:30 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:26:30 -0800
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <008301c2a892$b0775f60$0400a8c0@charterpipeline.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.182630.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting Jerome Foster <funex79 at SLONET.ORG>:

> I attended elementary school in Brooklyn in the 30's (P.S.105, P.S.103, and
> J.H.S.220 to be specific) and oak tag was the common name for a rather
> rough, yellow-tan heavy paper or light cardboard used for vaious art
> projects and similar uses.

I just had dinner with a friend I've known since kindergarten, another product
of New Jersey public schools. I mentioned this thread and he said he had always
thought it was "oat tag." Still, I remember it as "oak tag," so his could just
be an individual error.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From N270053 at VM.SC.EDU  Sat Dec 21 02:23:53 2002
From: N270053 at VM.SC.EDU (Michael Montgomery)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:23:53 EST
Subject: standard passage
Message-ID: <FRI.20.DEC.2002.212353.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Cassidy and DARE used a short narrative titled Arthur
the Rat that was a modification of Daniel Jones' Grip
the Rat passage.  Joseph Sargent Hall, a graduate student
in the late 1930s at Columbia, became acquainted with the
original Jones version from his mentor, W. Cabell Greet,
and when embarking on fieldwork in the Smoky Mountains of
Tennessee/North Carolina in 1939, he named the lead
character Arthur because he thought it would be more
familiar to American respondents.  I learned this from
Hall in an interview with him shortly before his death
in 1992.  Interestingly enough, when I recounted Hall's
account to Cassidy in 1997, he said he always wondered
where the name Arthur came from.

Michael Montgomery

--- RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
> I think this must refer to the rat story that Fred
> Cassidy used at DARE? My
> memory is pretty hazy about this, however.
>
>
> In a message dated 12/19/02 8:12:17 AM,
> gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes:
>
>
> > Can someone help this man?
> >
> > D?but du message r?exp?di? :
> >
> > > De: David Skinner
> <david.skinner at tsd.state.tx.us>
> > > Date: Wed 18 Dec 2002  21:00:10 America/New_York
> > > ?: <gbarrett at americandialect.org>
> > > Objet: standard passage
> > > R?pondre ?: David Skinner
> <david.skinner at tsd.state.tx.us>
> > >
> > > Did the ADS ever use something called the
> standard passage. A ling
> > > professor once referred to it and played some
> examples of various
> > > people reading it.
> > >
> > > If this rings a bell, i'd like to find a copy of
> it. Any help would be
> > > greatly appreciated.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 21 07:31:35 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 02:31:35 -0500
Subject: Fourth-Quarter Surprise
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.023135.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Amsterdam.  I fly to Nairobi in two hours.

   From the WALL STREET JOURNAL EUROPE, December 20-22, 2002, pg. A11, col. 1:

_Small Merchants Are Upset at Yahoo Higher Fees_
By MYLENE MANGALINDAN
   Merchants call it the "fourth-quarter surprise."
   Last year, just before the holiday-shopping frenzy kicked in, _Yahoo_ Inc. told the small merchants who operate stores on its shopping site it was raising the rent, so to speak.  (...)


(Check the usual databases.  "Fourth-quarter surprise" is a little later than the "October Surprise" and "November Surprise."  Perhaps there's a "first-quarter surprise" also.  The second and third quarters have no surprises?--ed.)


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Dec 21 09:30:13 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 02:30:13 -0700
Subject: WOTY Nomination: Smokemouth
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.023013.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Allan,

        Glad to hear that you are picking up WOTY nominations from the
list, as I never got around to sending mine to Wayne. I suggested this one
some months ago, but don't know whether you collected it in your list of
nominations. The word gained some prominence in the West when wildfires
were raging this summer, but like early-year movies that don't make it to
the Oscar nominations, terms like this are forgotten as quickly as the
fires fade from the front page/TV news. It refers to a condition suffered
by firefighters battling the blazes. I haven't checked it out on Google or
elsewhere.

        Rudy


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Sat Dec 21 09:43:16 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 02:43:16 -0700
Subject: Inchoate
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.024316.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"And the earth was without form, and void..." My guess is that the
extension of meaning of "inchoate" was by contamination from "incoherent",
not "chaos", as a sort of subtle malapropism, not easily detected. The
word is fairly rare and learned (a BNC search for frequencies, anyone?),
and subject to "infection" by users who are vaguely familiar with it (and
don't know what an "inchoative" is in grammar). Phonological similarity
helps the process, which is why I suggest that "incoherent" was the source
of the shift in meaning. (Of course, both influences could have been at
work, "chaos" giving a visual boost to its rarer cousin for spellers who
can't remember whether "i" precedes or follows "e".) Certainly, as has
been suggested, the close semantic association of something being in a
beginning state and being unorganized is a natural impetus, moreso than
"chaos", which to me always implies a violent state of disorder ("chaos
theory" to the contrary notwithstanding).

        Rudy


From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Sat Dec 21 13:09:42 2002
From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 08:09:42 -0500
Subject: Subject Tag Test
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.080942.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gang,

I added a subject tag header.  This message is a test to determine whether I
have a clue.


**************************
Terry Lynn Irons


From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Sat Dec 21 13:18:58 2002
From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 08:18:58 -0500
Subject: new try
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.081858.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This a second test of the subject header tag option.  In my own mail, I had not
added the subj option.

If this works and you want the option, send the following message to
listserv at listserv.uga.edu

set ads-l subj

If it doesn't work, I am going back to the kitchen and make more biscotti.


**************************
Terry Lynn Irons


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Dec 21 13:17:07 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 08:17:07 -0500
Subject: Derivation of the word oaktag
In-Reply-To: <1040437590.3e03d15635a96@webmail.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.081707.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Webster's Third shows "oaktag", = "tagboard", = "strong cardboard used
especially for making tags". No etymology given.

-- Doug Wilson


From t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Sat Dec 21 14:00:47 2002
From: t.irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Lynn Irons)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 09:00:47 -0500
Subject: Another test
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.090047.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am hopeful I have not messed up everything

--
Virtually, Terry
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
Terry Lynn Irons        t.irons at morehead-st.edu
Voice Mail:             (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail:             UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)


This message scanned by RAV anti-virus.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 21 14:41:30 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 09:41:30 -0500
Subject: new try
In-Reply-To: <1040476738.3e046a428b2a1@ldap.morehead-st.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.094130.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>This a second test of the subject header tag option.  In my own
>mail, I had not
>added the subj option.
>
>If this works and you want the option, send the following message to
>listserv at listserv.uga.edu
>
>set ads-l subj
>
>If it doesn't work, I am going back to the kitchen and make more biscotti.
>
I'll take the biscotti, thanks.

Larry


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Sat Dec 21 15:11:22 2002
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:11:22 -0500
Subject: biscotti
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.101122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

terry & other baking lexicographers

biscotti = mandelbrot?

beth

beth lee simon, ph.d.
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
voice 260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 21 15:34:31 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:34:31 -0500
Subject: biscotti
In-Reply-To: <se043e7c.067@gw.ipfw.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.103431.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:11 AM -0500 12/21/02, Beth Simon wrote:
>terry & other baking lexicographers
>
>biscotti = mandelbrot?
>
>beth
>
Not necessarily.  Mandelbrot is [+ almond] by definition; biscotti
are unmarked for the presence or absence of that feature.  One
classic version contains pine nuts and may be flavored with either
almond or vanilla extract.

Larry


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Sat Dec 21 16:18:57 2002
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 11:18:57 -0500
Subject: Pronunciation of "googol"
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.111857.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The name Google may be derived from a mathematical term, but it seems likely that it and its pronunciation was influenced by the fact that several of its predecessors among web browsers were named after cartoon characters.  I recall Archie, which was followed (? if I remember) by Veronica.

I am supposing the the name Google was chosen in part as an allusion to Barney Google.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
Date: Thursday, December 12, 2002 2:33 pm
Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "googol"

> At 9:20 AM -0800 12/12/02, vida morkunas wrote:
> >I say Goo-g'l
> >
> >Vida.
> >(in the Pacific NW)
>
> Me too, but I have an alternation with the full vowel for
> "googolplex", where the [u] in the first syllable and the [a] in the
> second both get secondary stress:
>
> [,gu,gal'plEks]
>
> (...which is, everyone will remember, 1 followed by a googol of
> zeros.  A very large number indeed.  This too is defined in Gamow's
> _One, Two, Three, Infinity_, or a title approximating that.
>
> larry
>
> P.S.  Actually, I think I've also known myself to use the ['gu,gal]
> pronunciation for "google", with the full vowel.
>


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 21 17:38:08 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 12:38:08 EST
Subject: Buck and a quarter/buck and a half
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.123808.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone noticed a usage of "buck and a quarter" to mean one hundred twenty
five dollars and "buck and a half" to mean one hundred fifty dollars?

I don't recall ever having heard it before, until in the last week I heard it
twice.

Presumably it is used only in contexts in which the order of magnitude is
clear, but the first time was referring to the fee for a round of golf (not
being a golfer, I was unaware that $1.25 was ridiculously low) and the other
time was at a yard sale where the seller (former owner of a major grocery
chain franchise) gave it as a price for a piece of furniture.  Luckily I was
warned and asked him which price he meant.  Unfortunately it was the higher
one, but my wife bargained him down to $110.

           - Jim Landau (perennially context-challenged)


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sat Dec 21 17:56:32 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 12:56:32 -0500
Subject: Buck and a quarter/buck and a half
In-Reply-To: <1a8.e1a225f.2b360100@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.125632.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Dec 21, 2002 at 12:38:08PM -0500, James A. Landau wrote:
> Has anyone noticed a usage of "buck and a quarter" to mean one hundred twenty
> five dollars and "buck and a half" to mean one hundred fifty dollars?

HDAS has an entry for this, with _buck_ meaning 'one hundred dollars',
'one hundred (of anything, as pounds of weight)', and 'one thousand/
one hundred thousand dollars'. The earliest example of _buck and a half_
for $150 is 1974, though I seem to recall someone finding an antedating
for one or another of these senses.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From self at TOWSE.COM  Sat Dec 21 18:39:15 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:39:15 -0800
Subject: WOTY
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.103915.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark A Mandel wrote:
>
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
>
> #An obvious candidate for 2002 Word-of-the-year is "Enron" used as a metaphor.
>
> Including verbally. The company I worked for was bought by a competitor
> and enronned.
>

The Fella and I were discussing WOTY last night over dinner: he
suggests "material breach" - an amorphous term as yet to be
defined.

Sal
--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>

--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK  Sat Dec 21 18:50:52 2002
From: slang at BLUEYONDER.CO.UK (Jonathon Green)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 18:50:52 -0000
Subject: Buck and a quarter/buck and a half
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.185052.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

1971 G.V. Higgins _Friends of Eddie Coyle_ (1973) 10: He'd go a buck and a
half apiece for as many [sc. guns] as I could get

Jonathon Green


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 21 19:16:10 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:16:10 -0500
Subject: Venus, King Kong, Porter, Berlin
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.141610.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

John Baker calls our attention to the following parody verses of Cole
Porter's "You're the Top":

http://dogslife.blogspot.com/2002_07_01_dogslife_archive.html
[posted by Gregory Hlatky, July 27, 2002]
You're the top.
You're Miss Pinkham's tonic.
You're the top.
You're a high colonic.
You're the burning heat of a bridal suite in use.
You're the breast [sic; typo for "breasts"] of Venus,
You're King Kong's penis,
You're self-abuse!
You're an arch from the Rome collection.
You're the starch in a groom's erection.
I'm a eunuch that has undergone an "op."
But if, baby, I'm the bottom, you're the top!


The only problem is that this doesn't really *sound* like Irving
Berlin, who was extremely straight and generally pretty humorless
(but see below).  It sounds much more like Cole Porter himself--and I
say that not only because of the latter's Yale connections.  A
colleague off-list calls my attention to a passage in the dual
biography _Genius and Lust : The Creativity and Sexuality of Noel
Coward and Cole Porter_, by Joseph Morella and George Mazzei (New
York: Carroll & Graf, 1995) [not to be confused with _Genius and Lust
: A Journey through the Major Writings of Henry Miller_,   compiled
by Norman Mailer (New York: Grove Press, 1976)], in which virtually
identical verses are attributed to Cole Porter himself, not to Berlin:

"Throughout his career Porter would write saltier lyrics to his songs,
which he'd sing at parties. Most of the lyrics were never written down --
few even survive. One of the classics, however, was the party version of
"You're the Top" [verses as above]. (Morella and Mazzei 1995: 151)

A surf through the web finds the same verses cited at
http://www.grazian-archive.com/autobiography/babe/BABE_20.htm
and attributed to "Bro Bus", another refers to it mysteriously as
'Cole Porter's own (but
spurious) parody of his "You're the Top".'  Apparently David Hyde
Pierce sang the above version at a Mark Taper Forum tribute to Cole
Porter last January, again suggesting (but not proving) Porter's
authorship.  Other appearances on the web are unattributed, BUT there
is one that supports the dogslife.blogspot assertion, from a TIME.com
biosketch of Irving Berlin written a year ago by Richard Corliss:

http://www.time.com/time/sampler/article/0,8599,190220,00.html
Often he showed his collegiality the best way he knew, by writing in
the style of other composers'
work. As a bon-voyage gift to Cole Porter before a 1935 sailing,
Berlin roguishly parodied Porter's
recent hit "You're the Top: "You're the burning heat/ Of a bridal
suite/ In use,/ You're the breasts of
Venus/ You're King Kong's penis/ You're self-abuse!"

So the authorship of these lines remains very much in dispute.

Larry

P.S.  See http://www.gironet.nl/home/reinkoni/TheTop.html for a few
additional verses.


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Sat Dec 21 21:31:20 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:31:20 -0800
Subject: Buck and a quarter/buck and a half
In-Reply-To: <1a8.e1a225f.2b360100@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.133120.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Almost. Things like "One and a half" used to be common in used-car lots;
in this case it would be $150, also known as "a hunnert'n'a half." For all
I know, flivver purveyors are still doing this, although I'll wager at
least a buck and a quarter that there aren't many jalopies--'scuse me,
pre-owned vehicles--out there in the used lots for prices like that.

Peter

On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, James A. Landau wrote:

> Has anyone noticed a usage of "buck and a quarter" to mean one hundred twenty
> five dollars and "buck and a half" to mean one hundred fifty dollars?
>
> I don't recall ever having heard it before, until in the last week I heard it
> twice.
>
> Presumably it is used only in contexts in which the order of magnitude is
> clear, but the first time was referring to the fee for a round of golf (not
> being a golfer, I was unaware that $1.25 was ridiculously low) and the other
> time was at a yard sale where the seller (former owner of a major grocery
> chain franchise) gave it as a price for a piece of furniture.  Luckily I was
> warned and asked him which price he meant.  Unfortunately it was the higher
> one, but my wife bargained him down to $110.
>
>            - Jim Landau (perennially context-challenged)
>


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Sat Dec 21 21:32:49 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:32:49 -0800
Subject: WOTY
In-Reply-To: <3E04B553.F87018FC@towse.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.133249.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> The Fella and I were discussing WOTY last night over dinner: he
> suggests "material breach" - an amorphous term as yet to be
> defined.
>
> Sal

A great idea. Maybe it could be covered by a material breach cloth, made
out of breech cloth material.

Must be the end of the term. Sorry.

Peter


From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU  Sat Dec 21 22:07:31 2002
From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 00:07:31 +0200
Subject: Pronunciation of "googol"
In-Reply-To: <180e1170aa.170aa180e1@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.22.DEC.2002.000731.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Actually, Archie and Veronica (as well as Jughead) pre-dated the web.
They were file browsers that existed before the first web browsers
were created.

Archie was a search program for files on public FTP servers, while
Veronica was a search program for content on Gopher servers.

Gopher was a menu-based system that was the easiest way to present
content on the Internet before the web was created - and more
accurately before NCSA released Mosaic which is really the event that
launched the web. I don't doubt that there are some gopher servers
still running out there, but I don't know anyone that stuff with
gopher for very long after the web began to grow...

Archie was created in 1990 and the name was just short for Archives.

Veronica, created in 1993, was originally just named to match Archie,
since they served similar purposes, but was later tagged Very Easy
Rodent-Oriented Networkwide Index to Computerized Archives, or
something along those lines.

Jughead was another search engine that searched gopherspace, with
similar naming origins.

All of this info can be found by doing a simple search on Google...

Getting back to the origin of the name Google - it seems it's not
connected at all. It is, in fact, a play on the word Googol, which
being an impossibly large number seemed to the founders of Google to
represent the seeming endless size of the web very well.

Google documents their history very well here:

http://www.google.com/corporate/history.html

Philip Trauring

At 11:18 AM -0500 12/21/02, George Thompson wrote:
>The name Google may be derived from a mathematical term, but it
>seems likely that it and its pronunciation was influenced by the
>fact that several of its predecessors among web browsers were named
>after cartoon characters.  I recall Archie, which was followed (? if
>I remember) by Veronica.
>
>I am supposing the the name Google was chosen in part as an allusion
>to Barney Google.
>
>GAT
>
>George A. Thompson
>Author of A Documentary History of "The African
>Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>Date: Thursday, December 12, 2002 2:33 pm
>Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "googol"
>
>>  At 9:20 AM -0800 12/12/02, vida morkunas wrote:
>>  >I say Goo-g'l
>>  >
>>  >Vida.
>>  >(in the Pacific NW)
>>
>>  Me too, but I have an alternation with the full vowel for
>>  "googolplex", where the [u] in the first syllable and the [a] in the
>>  second both get secondary stress:
>>
>>  [,gu,gal'plEks]
>>
>>  (...which is, everyone will remember, 1 followed by a googol of
>>  zeros.  A very large number indeed.  This too is defined in Gamow's
>>  _One, Two, Three, Infinity_, or a title approximating that.
>>
>>  larry
>>
>>  P.S.  Actually, I think I've also known myself to use the ['gu,gal]
>  > pronunciation for "google", with the full vowel.
>  >


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Dec 21 22:12:13 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:12:13 -0800
Subject: WOTY
In-Reply-To: <3E04B553.F87018FC@towse.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.141213.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting Towse <self at TOWSE.COM>:

> Mark A Mandel wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, James A. Landau wrote:
> >
> > #An obvious candidate for 2002 Word-of-the-year is "Enron" used as a
> metaphor.
> >
> > Including verbally. The company I worked for was bought by a competitor
> > and enronned.
> >
>
> The Fella and I were discussing WOTY last night over dinner: he
> suggests "material breach" - an amorphous term as yet to be
> defined.

It's certainly topical, but it's neither new nor undefined. It's a standard
legal term referring to failure to uphold one of the primary obligations of a
contract or agreement. It may be a bit amorphous in that what constitutes a
material v. non-material breach may be in the eye of beholder.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Dec 21 22:22:32 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 17:22:32 -0500
Subject: another WOTY candidate: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22walking_pi=F1ata=22?=
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.172232.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've been enjoying the references to the now ex-Majority Leader Lott
as "a walking pi?ata" in the days before his resignation.  (That's an
n with a tilde in case the character gets mangled in transmission.)
The phrase is attributed to an unidentified Republican.  There's one
relevant Nexis cite from before the Lott affair, back in June 18,
1995, reproduced below, as well as one in which the reference is to
someone's colorful if not gaudy appearance, but otherwise this seems
to represent a new and I think valuable coinage by the anonymous
Republican donor.

Larry
+++++++++++++++++

The New York Times
  June 18, 1995, Sunday, Late Edition - Final

  SECTION: Section 6;  Page 18;  Column 1;  Magazine Desk

  HEADLINE: THE CAPITALIST;
  Separating Rich People From Their Money

  BYLINE:  By MICHAEL LEWIS

  BODY:
  "It's remarkable. It's absolutely above board, thoroughly honest. It
may sound a little bit too good to be true, but it's absolutely
wonderful." . . . . . . . . MAY 2, 1995.

  "We're not naive dupes, I don't think." . . . MAY 15.


  "Oh, my God, I cannot believe it." . . . . . MAY 16.

  JOHN C. WHITEHEAD, FORMER CO-CHAIRMAN OF GOLDMAN SACHS, SPEAKING TO
STEVE STECKLOW OF THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, AS IT DAWNS ON HIM THAT HE
HAS LOST CLOSE TO $1 MILLION IN THE FOUNDATION FOR NEW ERA
PHILANTHROPY CHARITY FRAUD. THE RICH PROBABLY ARE DIFFERENT from you
and me, if for no other reason than they spend their lives being
treated differently by you and me. Especially in America, where
public goods are scarce and private wealth vast, a rich person is
a walking pinata. He strolls through life stuffed with surpluses
while the rest of us bash away at him with little sticks.


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Sat Dec 21 22:34:51 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 16:34:51 -0600
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938)
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.163451.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We (usually) add sour cream and some kind of creamy soup, put it over
potatoes and call it "stroganoff".  I know it probably is not what most
people would call stroganoff (or however it's spelled), but that's what we
call it, whether served over baked potatoes or over noodles.  Our family
always had an (apparently) odd definition of "goulash" too, which is
basically a "hotdish" (MN) made with elbow macaroni, stewed/canned tomatoes,
a couple of carrots or something cut up in it (if feeling creative), and
browned hamburger meat.
-- Millie


>
> My grandmother (b. 1918) used to make this, mom (b. 1938) picked it up and
> now I make it and serve it over noodles or some other starchy thing. But,
> we've never had a name for it. My mother swears that her grandfather (b.
> 1886), a PA Dutch Mennonite, had a PA Dutch name for it. Anybody have any
> idea what that was? Or what it's called elsewhere? Nowadays we just call
it
> "Grandma Bessie's hamburger gunk," but I'm pretty sure we're the only ones
;-)
>
>
>
> Katy
>
>
> Kathleen E. Miller
> Research Assistant to William Safire
> The New York Times
>


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Sat Dec 21 22:56:20 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 16:56:20 -0600
Subject: OT from Oaktag
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.165620.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Now there's a response with a phrase I associate automatically with New York
(or at least with American Yiddish familiarity): "Knows from X/Y/Z".  As in,
"What would he know from wigs/sherry/lightbulbs."  I love that phrase, and
would use it myself, if I were not nervous about either being misunderstood,
or seen as affecting a non-native usage.  Thank you, Larry: you helped make
my day. -- Millie

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Derivation of the word oaktag


>
> Not everyone from NY knows from "oaktag".  Neither my wife nor I (b.
> 1944/45) is familiar with the term--we've always called it "poster
> board".
>
> Larry
>


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Sun Dec 22 01:16:37 2002
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 19:16:37 -0600
Subject: Bumpy Stew
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.191637.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This sounds like the widely loved/detested military mess hall recipe for
"S.O.S.", absent the Shingle (formally called creamed beef, I think.)  I
trust the Jewish girls didn't tell their rabbis of this wonderful dish. <g>
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938); Pozole (1934); Bint El Sahn (1932)


BUMPY STEW

   I was looking for something else, but never mind.  I have a soft spot for
the food of our women's colleges.   "Our teachers--they're of many
creeds--come from everywhere," my hostess said.  "Girls must worship, but as
they like.  We would accept Mohammedans or Buddhists.  I wish we had some.
Catholic, Jewish, or Presbyterian, they all like bumpy stew.  Married
alumnae write for the recipe."
   "I'd like it myself," I said.
   "Fry chopped onions in butter until they're brown.  Then fry ground beef
in the mixture until that's brown.  Sprinkle with flour; add milk, salt, and
pepper.  Keep stirring until it gets bumpy.  Then," she added, "it's bumpy
stew."


From pds at VISI.COM  Sun Dec 22 05:36:27 2002
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 23:36:27 -0600
Subject: End of year request..
In-Reply-To: <004b01c2a879$455bd2b0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <SAT.21.DEC.2002.233627.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More helpful would be an explanation of how Jim might accomplish this in
his e-mail environment, which is AOL. I hope that it *is* possible in AOL.

Some implementations of list name prefixing are really annoying.  Subjects
can end up looking like:

[ADS-L] Re: [ADS-L] Re: [ADS-L] Re: [ADS-L] FW: Question about a possible
new coinage

In the message lists in most e-mail programs, the informative part of this
subject would be truncated.  Filtering (Eudora) or Rules (Outlook) on the
recipient's end is the better way to go, assuming it's possible in one's
mail program.

At 04:43 PM 12/20/2002 -0600, Millie Webb wrote:
>Yes, please try as Thomas suggests.  All you do is set an e-mail message
>"rule" to put everything with ADS in the from line to a folder created just
>for them within your in-box.


  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA


From dsgood at VISI.COM  Sun Dec 22 06:00:55 2002
From: dsgood at VISI.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 00:00:55 -0600
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 20 Dec 2002 to 21 Dec 2002 (#2002-330)
In-Reply-To: <20021222050103.6B18053F4@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.22.DEC.2002.000055.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Date sent:              Sun, 22 Dec 2002 00:01:01 -0500
Send reply to:          American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
From:                   Automatic digest processor
<LISTSERV at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject:                ADS-L Digest - 20 Dec 2002 to 21 Dec 2002 (#2002-
330)
To:                     Recipients of ADS-L digests <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Date:    Sat, 21 Dec 2002 11:18:57 -0500
> From:    George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Pronunciation of "googol"
>
> The name Google may be derived from a mathematical term, but it seems
> likely that it and its pronunciation was influenced by the fact that
> several of its predecessors among web browsers were named after
> cartoon characters.  I recall Archie, which was followed (? if I
> remember) by Veronica.

I believe Archie and Veronica (and Jughead) preceded the web.


From j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Dec 22 06:33:37 2002
From: j.clapp at EARTHLINK.NET (James E. Clapp)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 01:33:37 -0500
Subject: End of year request..
Message-ID: <SUN.22.DEC.2002.013337.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Tom Kysilko wrote:

> Some implementations of list name prefixing are really annoying.  Subjects
> can end up looking like:
>
> [ADS-L] Re: [ADS-L] Re: [ADS-L] Re: [ADS-L] FW: Question about a possible
> new coinage
>
> In the message lists in most e-mail programs, the informative part of this
> subject would be truncated. . . .

In Outlook Express you can elect (through View > Columns...) to display
"From", "To", and "Subject" (among other) columns in your message list.  The
"To" field always begins with "ADS-L", so no need to include that in the
Subject.


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Dec 23 13:46:32 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 05:46:32 -0800
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938)
In-Reply-To: <002601c2a941$2d70f0e0$7401a8c0@HP>
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.054632.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sounds like goulash to me! - only thing odd is you
forgot onions, chopped and cooked with the meat.
Never thought of adding carrots.

JIM (UT)

--- Millie Webb <millie-webb at CHARTER.NET> wrote:
.... Our family
> always had an (apparently) odd definition of
> "goulash" too, which is
> basically a "hotdish" (MN) made with elbow macaroni,
> stewed/canned tomatoes,
> a couple of carrots or something cut up in it (if
> feeling creative), and
> browned hamburger meat.
> -- Millie
>
>
> >
> > My grandmother (b. 1918) used to make this, mom
> (b. 1938) picked it up and
> > now I make it and serve it over noodles or some
> other starchy thing. But,
> > we've never had a name for it. My mother swears
> that her grandfather (b.
> > 1886), a PA Dutch Mennonite, had a PA Dutch name
> for it. Anybody have any
> > idea what that was? Or what it's called elsewhere?
> Nowadays we just call
> it
> > "Grandma Bessie's hamburger gunk," but I'm pretty
> sure we're the only ones
> ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> > Katy
> >
> >
> > Kathleen E. Miller
> > Research Assistant to William Safire
> > The New York Times
> >


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Dec 23 14:04:18 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 06:04:18 -0800
Subject: Three Wise Men With Fire Hats
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.060418.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A little dialectical humor for the holidays.  From the
internet - original author unknown.

The Three Wise Men - With Fire Hats

In a small Southern town there was a "Nativity Scene"
that showed great skill and talent had gone into
creating it. One small feature bothered me. The three
wise men were wearing firemen's helmets.

Totally unable to come up with a reason or
explanation, I left. At a "Quick Stop" on the edge of
town, I asked the lady behind the counter about the
helmets.

She exploded into a rage, yelling at me, "You damn
Yankees never do read the Bible!"

I assured her that I did, but simply couldn't recall
anything about firemen in the Bible.

She jerked her Bible from behind the counter and
ruffled through some pages, and finally jabbed her
finger at a passage.

Sticking it in my face she said, "See, it says right
here, 'The three wise man came from afar.'"



=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 23 16:06:33 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:06:33 EST
Subject: American Speech electronic version
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.110633.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of the fringe benefits of ADS membership is access to current and recent
past issues of American Speech online . . . sometimes even before it's mailed
out. You may not yet have Vol. 77, issue 4 (I don't), but you can view the
table of contents online at Project Muse:

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/american_speech/toc/as77.4.html

Now if you're at an institution that subscribes to Project Muse, you can then
read the individual articles of this special issue dedicated to the memory of
Fred Cassidy. But if not, and if you're an ADS member, send me a message at
this address:
AAllan at aol.com
and I will send you the login and password you need to access this and all
issues of American Speech going back through 1999.

(It may be a little while before I get back to you, because after today I
don't expect to be online again till Tuesday the 31st.)

- Allan Metcalf


From jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU  Mon Dec 23 16:49:45 2002
From: jdhall at FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU (Joan Hall)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:49:45 -0600
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212202025280.90439336-100000@shell01.TheWor
 ld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.104945.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm appalled that that was there (written by a student programmer), but
glad that you pointed it out so that we can take it out.  We hadn't seen it
because our browsers were set to handle the frames.

At 08:27 PM 12/20/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote:
>
>#"Arthur the Rat" can be found at the DARE site:
>#http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html
>
>I just got this message, displayed here verbatim by copy-&-paste:
>         >>>>>
>
>    The information in this page is displayed in frames. Either You have
>    the frame feature of your browser turned off. Or Your using a very old
>    browser..Please Update for viewing
>
>         <<<<<
>What do people think of
>  1: its user-friendliness?
>  2: its grammaticality?
>  3: its suitability to the DARE website?
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Dec 23 16:58:51 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:58:51 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Kenya greetings
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.115851.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>From Barry.

--JTS

----- Forwarded message from SSSL1 at serenalodge.net -----

Subject: Kenya greetings
Date: 23 Dec 2002 16:24:00 -0000
From: SSSL1 at serenalodge.net
To: jester at panix.com
X-Mailer: Bushmail 3.0.895
X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.1 required=5.0
        tests=NO_REAL_NAME,SPAM_PHRASE_00_01,SUPERLONG_LINE
        version=2.43
X-Spam-Level: **

Hakuna Matata everybody!  I'm in the Samburu Serena Lodge in Kenya.  Kenyan elections are just four days away.
   I can send e-mail from this address and receive it, but I can't get on AOL.  These lodges don't seem to have internet, and the internet at the Nairobi Hilton was out when I stayed there. So don't expect much e-mailing from here.

AFRICAN WAVE--waving by little kids, who want pens and candy.

ANIMAL WAKE-UP CALL--Available at my last lodge.  I thought it was "The cow says--Moo!  Seven o'clock and time to get up!"  But no.  The lodge has someone looking at the waterhole during the night.  If your requested animal (say, a hippo) is spotted, you're woken up.  3 a.m. elephant wake-ups.  What a vacation!

STOP STICKS--Like sleeping policemen, but these are sticks with spikes in them.  You can't go over them, but must go around them.  Also just called "road blocks."

MANDAZI--Donuts, without holes.  The Hilton had them triangular, the lodge had them round.  No filling.

MUTATU--A bus service.

QUADRUPLE WITCHING--FINANCIAL TIMES, December 21-22, 2002, pg. 13, col. 1: "Traders were braced for volatility because of what was being dubbed 'quadruple witching'--the usual triple expiry of stock options, index options and index futures, plus expiry of newly introduced single stock futures contracts."

CNN EFFECT--FINANCIAL TIMES, December 20, 2002, pg. 25, col. 4:  "The last conflict in the Middle East in 1991 also impaired confidence.  Consumers postponed purchases due to uncertainty and because they were glued to their television sets following the conflict--the 'CNN effect.'"

----- End forwarded message -----


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Dec 23 17:32:24 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:32:24 -0500
Subject: Fwd: standard passage
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20021223104800.025a9158@wiscmail.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.123224.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 23 Dec 2002, Joan Hall wrote:

#I'm appalled that that was there (written by a student programmer), but
#glad that you pointed it out so that we can take it out.  We hadn't seen it
#because our browsers were set to handle the frames.

Does the content of the site require frames? (That was part of what I
meant by "user-friendliness", the other part, of course, being the
wording.) That is, can it be made accessible to the frameless?

-- Mark A. Mandel


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 23 22:10:53 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:10:53 -0800
Subject: Palatalization
In-Reply-To: <20021223140418.59941.qmail@web9707.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.141053.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That story of the 3 wise men coming from a fire brings to mind another
illustration for Ling. 101: a Little Johnny story.

The children are drawing manger scenes [OK, so it's not a public school].
The teacher notices a very--um--large fellow standing in back of the
manger and asks Little Johnny who that might be: "Well, that's Mary, and
that's Joseph, and that's little Baby Jesus...and that's Round John
Virgin."

Happy holidays, all.

Peter R.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Dec 23 22:13:26 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:13:26 -0500
Subject: Fwd: origin of word picnic
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.171326.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of the rather more offensive folk etymologies needs a bit of
debunking. Would some please respond to this claim in full "actually,
no" mode? Directly to the original sender, if you would.

D?but du message r?exp?di? :

> De: "Greg Maccarone" <gamsky at sbcglobal.net>
> Date: Mon 23 Dec 2002  13:18:43 America/New_York
> Objet: origin of word picnic
>
> My daughter (in 12th grade) discussed the origin of the word "picnic"
> with me. To my surprise, a classmate told her it meant "pic a
> []igger". Supposedly, a group of people would meet to eat, and then
> select a person of African descent to be hung from a tree.
>
> I am shocked that this information is out there without any check for
> accuracy. Please help. What do you recommend? Thanks


From kawase at GW8.GATEWAY.NE.JP  Mon Dec 23 22:20:29 2002
From: kawase at GW8.GATEWAY.NE.JP (Taketoshi Kawase)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:20:29 +0900
Subject: American Speech electronic version
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.072029.0900.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Professor Allan,

I am a life member of ADS and would like to read American Speech online.
Please send me the login and password which is  needed to access this and all
issues of American Speech going back through 1999.
Thank you for your attention in advance.

Taketoshi Kawase
kawase at gw8.gateway.ne.jp


----- Original Message -----
From: <AAllan at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 1:06 AM
Subject: American Speech electronic version


> One of the fringe benefits of ADS membership is access to current and recent
> past issues of American Speech online . . . sometimes even before it's mailed
> out. You may not yet have Vol. 77, issue 4 (I don't), but you can view the
> table of contents online at Project Muse:
>
> http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/american_speech/toc/as77.4.html
>
> Now if you're at an institution that subscribes to Project Muse, you can then
> read the individual articles of this special issue dedicated to the memory of
> Fred Cassidy. But if not, and if you're an ADS member, send me a message at
> this address:
> AAllan at aol.com
> and I will send you the login and password you need to access this and all
> issues of American Speech going back through 1999.
>
> (It may be a little while before I get back to you, because after today I
> don't expect to be online again till Tuesday the 31st.)
>
> - Allan Metcalf


From kawase at GW8.GATEWAY.NE.JP  Mon Dec 23 22:46:07 2002
From: kawase at GW8.GATEWAY.NE.JP (Taketoshi Kawase)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:46:07 +0900
Subject: American Speech electronic version
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.074607.0900.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear All,

Inadvertently I sent my personal message to you all.
I am sorry for any trouble this might have caused.

Taketoshi Kawase


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 23 22:52:03 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:52:03 EST
Subject: Fwd: origin of word picnic
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.175203.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/23/2002 5:14:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes:

> One of the rather more offensive folk etymologies needs a bit of
>  debunking. Would some please respond to this claim in full "actually,
>  no" mode? Directly to the original sender, if you would.
>
>  D?but du message r?exp?di? :
>
>  > De: "Greg Maccarone" <gamsky at sbcglobal.net>
>  > Date: Mon 23 Dec 2002  13:18:43 America/New_York
>  > Objet: origin of word picnic
>  >
>  > My daughter (in 12th grade) discussed the origin of the word "picnic"
>  > with me. To my surprise, a classmate told her it meant "pic a
>  > []igger". Supposedly, a group of people would meet to eat, and then
>  > select a person of African descent to be hung from a tree.
>  >
>  > I am shocked that this information is out there without any check for
>  > accuracy. Please help. What do you recommend? Thanks

Here is something from ADS-L that may be relevant:

Subj:         Re: nitty-gritty: racist term?
Date:   05/15/2002 3:08:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)

>>... UK police are not allowed to use the term 'nitty gritty' because it
>>allegedly originally meant the waste at the bottom of a slave ship once
>>the slaves were taken off.
>
>Another silly baseless etymythology, I think.
>
>Before further examination of this expression's amazing 250-year
>politically-charged history, let's see a single citation from before 1950.
>
Indeed.  Here's a clip from Michael Quinion's column (see URL below).
Of course this was before we'd been able to file it under etymythology   ;-)

World Wide Words -- 4 Nov 00

Q. Any ideas on the origins of the expression 'nitty-gritty'? I
heard today a rather horrible suggestion that it referred to the
debris left in the bottom of slave ships after their voyages, once
the slaves remaining alive had been removed. [Helen Norris]

A. This belongs in the same line of folklore which holds that a
'picnic' was a slave lynching party. There is a very slight link,
in that 'nitty-gritty' was indeed originally a Black American
English expression. However, it dates only from the 1950s.

John Lighter, in the _Random House Historical Dictionary of
American Slang_, records the first example from 1956: "You'll find
nobody comes down to the nitty-gritty when it calls for namin'
things for what they are". As it is here fully formed, and has the
now customary sense of the fundamental issues or most important
aspects of some situation, it had by then probably already been in
use for some while. But it is inconceivable that it should have
been around since slave-ship days without somebody writing it down.

Its origins are elusive. The most usual explanation is that it is a
reduplication - using the same mechanism that has given us 'willy-
nilly', 'namby-pamby' and 'itsy-bitsy' - of the standard English
word 'gritty'. This has the literal sense of containing or being
covered with grit, but figuratively means showing courage and
resolve, so the link is plausible.

=====
[follow-up, 11/11/00]

NITTY-GRITTY  Following last week's Q&A piece on this phrase, J D
Hamilton wrote: "I am 81 years old and I have been hearing the
words 'nitty gritty' since early childhood in western Canada. It
was always 'down to the nitty gritty' or close to bedrock and meant
facing reality and coping with it". This is interesting, since it
contradicts the usual view that it derives from 1950s black usage.
In 1974, a writer in _American Speech_, the journal of the American
Dialect Society, also claimed memory of the term from the 1920s,
but in the southern states of the US. I've added some more
information to the archived copy of the piece, which is on the
Words site at <http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-nit2.htm>.


From self at TOWSE.COM  Mon Dec 23 23:00:57 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:00:57 -0800
Subject: Fwd: origin of word picnic
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.150057.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"James A. Landau" wrote:
>
> In a message dated 12/23/2002 5:14:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes:
>
> > One of the rather more offensive folk etymologies needs a bit of
> >  debunking. Would some please respond to this claim in full "actually,
> >  no" mode? Directly to the original sender, if you would.
> >
> >  D?but du message r?exp?di? :
> >
> >  > De: "Greg Maccarone" <gamsky at sbcglobal.net>
> >  > Date: Mon 23 Dec 2002  13:18:43 America/New_York
> >  > Objet: origin of word picnic
> >  >
> >  > My daughter (in 12th grade) discussed the origin of the word "picnic"
> >  > with me. To my surprise, a classmate told her it meant "pic a
> >  > []igger". Supposedly, a group of people would meet to eat, and then
> >  > select a person of African descent to be hung from a tree.
> >  >
> >  > I am shocked that this information is out there without any check for
> >  > accuracy. Please help. What do you recommend? Thanks
>
> Here is something from ADS-L that may be relevant:
>
> Subj:         Re: nitty-gritty: racist term?
> Date:   05/15/2002 3:08:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> From:   laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
>
> >>... UK police are not allowed to use the term 'nitty gritty' because it
> >>allegedly originally meant the waste at the bottom of a slave ship once
> >>the slaves were taken off.
> >
> >Another silly baseless etymythology, I think.
> >
> >Before further examination of this expression's amazing 250-year
> >politically-charged history, let's see a single citation from before 1950.
> >
> Indeed.  Here's a clip from Michael Quinion's column (see URL below).
> Of course this was before we'd been able to file it under etymythology   ;-)
>
> World Wide Words -- 4 Nov 00

I sent Greg Maccarone a link to Michael Quinion's column that
specifically debunks the origin given for "picnic":
<http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pic1.htm>

Sal
--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Mon Dec 23 23:29:45 2002
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:29:45 -0500
Subject: It's Jon, not John
In-Reply-To: <d.56498ea.2b38ed93@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.182945.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>John Lighter, in the _Random House Historical Dictionary of

Should be Jon (for Jonathan).

Bethany


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 23 23:56:52 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:56:52 EST
Subject: WOTY
Message-ID: <MON.23.DEC.2002.185652.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A long-shot (pun intended) for word of the year: "Gun lock" (or "trigger
lock" or "smart gun").

I was reminded of this when I discovered a man who gave his kids toy gun
locks for their toy guns.

     - Jim Landau


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Dec 24 09:27:32 2002
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 09:27:32 -0000
Subject: It's Jon, not John
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0212231828280.19504-100000@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.092732.0000.>

> >John Lighter, in the _Random House Historical Dictionary of
> Should be Jon (for Jonathan).

Who was it who said that our good deeds are soon forgotten but that
our errors follow us for ever? It might, now I think about it, have
been me. I made that mistake in the newsletter, but corrected it on
the Web page at <http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-nit2.htm>. While
I am confessing my sins, on two other occasions I spelt Dr Lighter's
first name as "Jonathon", for which the most slender finger of blame
must be pointed at Jonathon Green's parents ...

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Dec 24 17:31:28 2002
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 12:31:28 -0500
Subject: Gender-neutrality of "-person" forms
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.123128.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I seem to recall an article in the mid-1990s addressing
the issue of whether "-person" forms (e.g. "chairperson")
are truly gender-neutral or if they're marked as feminine
forms. I also seem to recall seeing something very
recently referring to this article, perhaps with more
research or something.

Can anyone help me out with this? I'm working on a mainstream
and short-deadlined article myself that might mention this
phenomenon, and I'd like to get the facts right.

Thanks.

Jesse Sheidlower


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 24 19:45:03 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 14:45:03 -0500
Subject: Chile con carne
In-Reply-To: <65.4fb3af2.2b33d5cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.144503.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:09 PM -0500 12/19/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>---------------------------------------------
>CHILE CON CARNE
>
>    Supposedly, the first "chile con carne" citation is 1857.  Supposedly,
>it's an American dish.  John Mariani's encyclopedia includes that famous
>quotation that chile con carne is "a detestable food with a false Mexican
>title which is sold in the United States from Texas to New York."
>    So what do you make of this, which I came across today?...
>MEMOIRS OF THE MEXICAN REVOLUTION
>by William Davis Robinson
>Philadelphia: Lydia R. Bailey, printer
>1820
>
>Pg. 71:  ..."the end justifies the means."
>
>Pg. 84:  ..._rancho_*...
>*_Rancho_ signifies a farm...
>
>Pg. 150:  ..._chile_ (capsicum_)...
>Pg. 150:  For all culinary purposes, this vegetable is as essential to the
>Mexican, as salt is to the European, and indeed more so, because a Mexican
>would rather go without bread, than lack chile with his meat.
>
>(Yes, no "chile con carne," but "chile with his meat" is close--ed.)


I'd say no relation whatsoever.  Chile con carne, on which I tend to
agree with the famous quotation, is a specific dish--with many
variants--involving braised and/or stewed meat with beans and/or
tomatoes and some seasonings involving fresh chile peppers or more
likely chile/chili powder.  The context of the above quote is one in
which meat is served with chiles served as a condiment on the side or
involved in the preparation or both, either of which is far more
typical of Mexican food than "chile con carne" of the type found at
chile cookoffs in the U.S. or canned by Hormel.  In the context, I
wouldn't agree that "chile con carne" in the modern sense is at all
close to "chile with meat".  (And, yes, I'm aware that I'm spelling
that second vowel in the keyword inconsistently.)

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 24 19:42:55 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 14:42:55 -0500
Subject: Dogcatcher elections (1906); Fired With Enthusiasm (1932?);
 Chile con carne
In-Reply-To: <65.4fb3af2.2b33d5cf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.144255.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>DOGCATCHER ELECTIONS
>
>    You used to hear this phrase all the time.  However, it seems to have
>disappeared, with most of the dogcatchers.  Trent Lott's star has fallen so
>fast, for example, that he "couldn't get elected dog-catcher."
>    I didn't see it in the RHHDAS or in William Safire's POLITICAL DICTIONARY.
>  It's not in the CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG.
>    I think it did start with the below-mentioned candidate.  I haven't
>checked the WASHINGTON POST.
>
>
>    10 October 1906, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 2:
>       _Hearst in California._
>    "Hearst couldn't be elected dog catcher in any part of my State," declared
>State Treasurer Truman Reeves of California yesterday to Mayor McClellan, on
>whom he paid a social call.
>
>    1 April 1968, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 28:
>    Of the President (LBJ--ed.), she said, "I think he saw the opposition
>growing so great that he couldn't run for dog catcher and would rather go
>down in history as having done his best than be defeated in November."
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>---------------------------------------------
>FIRED WITH ENTHUSIASM
>
>    Not to be confused with CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM, the HBO show by Larry David,
>a co-creator of SEINFELD.   Perhaps Fred Shapiro has some thoughts on the
>purported Vince Lombardi coinage.
>
>
>    7 September 1970, NEW YORK TIMES, "Lombardi Without Tears" by Robert
>Lipsyte, pg. 24:
>    WIth the same personality and a lesser intelligence, Lombardi would never
>have been able to tell men that they had better be "fired with enthusiasm or
>you'll be fired with enthusiasm."
>
>    16 September 1932, NEW YORK TIMES< pg. 16:
>    Eugene Savage, mural painter, said that if the student going to the
>American Academy in Rome "was not fired with enthusiasm, he should be fired
>by the director."
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>---------------------------------------------
>CHILE CON CARNE
>
>    Supposedly, the first "chile con carne" citation is 1857.  Supposedly,
>it's an American dish.  John Mariani's encyclopedia includes that famous
>quotation that chile con carne is "a detestable food with a false Mexican
>title which is sold in the United States from Texas to New York."
>    So what do you make of this, which I came across today?
>
>MEMOIRS OF THE MEXICAN REVOLUTION
>by William Davis Robinson
>Philadelphia: Lydia R. Bailey, printer
>1820
>
>Pg. 71:  ..."the end justifies the means."
>
>Pg. 84:  ..._rancho_*...
>*_Rancho_ signifies a farm...
>
>Pg. 150:  ..._chile_ (capsicum_)...
>Pg. 150:  For all culinary purposes, this vegetable is as essential to the
>Mexican, as salt is to the European, and indeed more so, because a Mexican
>would rather go without bread, than lack chile with his meat.
>
>(Yes, no "chile con carne," but "chile with his meat" is close--ed.)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>---------------------------------------------
>BORDELAISE SAUCE (continued)
>
>    I added the WIlliam Makepeace Thackeray citation for "escargot," but left
>off that he has one for "Bordelaise sauce" as well.  It's on LITERATURE
>ONLINE and another database (MOA-Mich. books?).
>    William Makepeace Thackeray, THE ADVENTURES OF PHILIP ON HIS WAY THROUGH
>THE WORLD (1860; NY: Harper Brothers, 1862), pg. 144:  "Aren't you tired of
>truffles and ecrevisses a la Bordelaise;..."
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>--------------------------------------------
>PORTOBELLO MUSHROOMS
>
>    The NEW YORK TIMES article is 23 October 1985, pg. C1, "Growing U.S. Taste
>for Mushrooms."


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Dec 24 20:03:32 2002
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 12:03:32 -0800
Subject: Chile con carne
In-Reply-To: <p04320403ba2e444f6570@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.120332.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree with Larry that the 1820 quote is not related to what is
usually meant by "chile con carne" but I don't think that beans are a
required ingredient.

allen
maberry at u.washington.edu


On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:

> At 9:09 PM -0500 12/19/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >---------------------------------------------
> >CHILE CON CARNE
> >
> >    Supposedly, the first "chile con carne" citation is 1857.  Supposedly,
> >it's an American dish.  John Mariani's encyclopedia includes that famous
> >quotation that chile con carne is "a detestable food with a false Mexican
> >title which is sold in the United States from Texas to New York."
> >    So what do you make of this, which I came across today?...
> >MEMOIRS OF THE MEXICAN REVOLUTION
> >by William Davis Robinson
> >Philadelphia: Lydia R. Bailey, printer
> >1820
> >
> >Pg. 71:  ..."the end justifies the means."
> >
> >Pg. 84:  ..._rancho_*...
> >*_Rancho_ signifies a farm...
> >
> >Pg. 150:  ..._chile_ (capsicum_)...
> >Pg. 150:  For all culinary purposes, this vegetable is as essential to the
> >Mexican, as salt is to the European, and indeed more so, because a Mexican
> >would rather go without bread, than lack chile with his meat.
> >
> >(Yes, no "chile con carne," but "chile with his meat" is close--ed.)
>
>
> I'd say no relation whatsoever.  Chile con carne, on which I tend to
> agree with the famous quotation, is a specific dish--with many
> variants--involving braised and/or stewed meat with beans and/or
> tomatoes and some seasonings involving fresh chile peppers or more
> likely chile/chili powder.  The context of the above quote is one in
> which meat is served with chiles served as a condiment on the side or
> involved in the preparation or both, either of which is far more
> typical of Mexican food than "chile con carne" of the type found at
> chile cookoffs in the U.S. or canned by Hormel.  In the context, I
> wouldn't agree that "chile con carne" in the modern sense is at all
> close to "chile with meat".  (And, yes, I'm aware that I'm spelling
> that second vowel in the keyword inconsistently.)
>
> larry
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 24 20:13:34 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:13:34 -0500
Subject: Fwd: origin of word picnic
In-Reply-To: <3E0795A9.9FB471DD@towse.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.151334.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:00 PM -0800 12/23/02, Towse wrote:
>
>I sent Greg Maccarone a link to Michael Quinion's column that
>specifically debunks the origin given for "picnic":
><http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pic1.htm>
>
See also http://www.snopes.com/language/offense/picnic.htm

Larry Horn


From millie-webb at CHARTER.NET  Tue Dec 24 21:22:48 2002
From: millie-webb at CHARTER.NET (Millie Webb)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:22:48 -0600
Subject: Bumpy Stew (1938)
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.152248.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We made very few dishes with onions.  Probably too "jazzed up" for a MN
hotdish.  :-)   I have seven siblings, and none of us tried anything "hot",
"spicy" or whatever until we moved out from home!  I remember deciding at
one point that my dad's British/English background had caught up with him,
and rendered him unable to cook or eat anything made with "spices" more
exotic than salt.  ;-)   And my father did approximately 95% of the cooking
in our house....  Millie

PS - In my experience, you can add carrots to almost anything to up the
"veggie" content, even with the pickiest children who "don't eat
vegetables".  (Spaghetti sauce, chicken popovers, pot roast, manicotti --
seriously.)

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Smith" <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: Bumpy Stew (1938)


> Sounds like goulash to me! - only thing odd is you
> forgot onions, chopped and cooked with the meat.
> Never thought of adding carrots.
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Dec 25 00:51:02 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 19:51:02 -0500
Subject: Chile con carne
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0212241154140.80224-100000@homer07.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.24.DEC.2002.195102.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:03 PM -0800 12/24/02, A. Maberry wrote:
>I agree with Larry that the 1820 quote is not related to what is
>usually meant by "chile con carne" but I don't think that beans are a
>required ingredient.
>
>allen
>maberry at u.washington.edu
>
I agree.  In fact the "authentic" versions I've seen recipes for are
a bit closer to one kind of meat-with-chile, consisting of braised
stew beef in small chunks (but not ground beef) cooked with various
spices and with neither beans nor tomatoes (including paste or puree)
added.  Still, that's definitely the minority version served in this
country, and you won't find it in cans.  I suspect that those who
cook it in the "authentic" style tend not to call it chile con carne,
if only because of guilt by association; "chile" or "chili" tout
court is used instead.  Some of you have no doubt been to more chile
cookoffs than I have, and can speak from more authority.

L


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Dec 26 08:18:01 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 00:18:01 -0800
Subject: WOTY
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.001801.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Did any of you in the SF Bay Area catch KRON (Channel 4) news
tonight?  I came in just as they were doing someone's Top 10 Words of
the Year.  Unfortunately, it was too fast for me to catch them, and I
couldn't find anything on their website.  I only remember Listeria,
which is completely uninteresting (unless you've got it, of course).

The main one, however, was misunderestimate.  That surely ought to be
nominated.

Rima


From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST  Thu Dec 26 10:35:01 2002
From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 11:35:01 +0100
Subject: Dumb clock defence
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.113501.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A translator colleague has asked me for the meaning of "dumb clock defence". I don't have the slightest clue. Does anyone on the list know the expression?
Jan Ivarsson, TransEdit
Translator, Subtitler
jan.ivarsson at transedit.st
http://www.transedit.st


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 26 13:28:56 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 08:28:56 EST
Subject: Dumb clock defence
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.082856.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/26/02 5:33:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST writes:

> A translator colleague has asked me for the meaning of "dumb clock defence".

Something from tournament chess, where you have to consider the clock as well
as your opponent's moves?

     - Jim Landau


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Dec 26 14:10:20 2002
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 06:10:20 -0800
Subject: Chile con carne
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.44.0212241154140.80224-100000@homer07.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.061020.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am not a chili aficionado, but I understand that
putting beans in chili at a serious chili cook-off
will get one drawn and quartered.



--- "A. Maberry" <maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU> wrote:
> I agree with Larry that the 1820 quote is not
> related to what is
> usually meant by "chile con carne" but I don't think
> that beans are a
> required ingredient.
>
> allen
> maberry at u.washington.edu
>
>
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2002, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> > At 9:09 PM -0500 12/19/02, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> >
> > >---------------------------------------------
> > >CHILE CON CARNE
> > >
> > >    Supposedly, the first "chile con carne"
> citation is 1857.  Supposedly,
> > >it's an American dish.  John Mariani's
> encyclopedia includes that famous
> > >quotation that chile con carne is "a detestable
> food with a false Mexican
> > >title which is sold in the United States from
> Texas to New York."
> > >    So what do you make of this, which I came
> across today?...
> > >MEMOIRS OF THE MEXICAN REVOLUTION
> > >by William Davis Robinson
> > >Philadelphia: Lydia R. Bailey, printer
> > >1820
> > >
> > >Pg. 71:  ..."the end justifies the means."
> > >
> > >Pg. 84:  ..._rancho_*...
> > >*_Rancho_ signifies a farm...
> > >
> > >Pg. 150:  ..._chile_ (capsicum_)...
> > >Pg. 150:  For all culinary purposes, this
> vegetable is as essential to the
> > >Mexican, as salt is to the European, and indeed
> more so, because a Mexican
> > >would rather go without bread, than lack chile
> with his meat.
> > >
> > >(Yes, no "chile con carne," but "chile with his
> meat" is close--ed.)
> >
> >
> > I'd say no relation whatsoever.  Chile con carne,
> on which I tend to
> > agree with the famous quotation, is a specific
> dish--with many
> > variants--involving braised and/or stewed meat
> with beans and/or
> > tomatoes and some seasonings involving fresh chile
> peppers or more
> > likely chile/chili powder.  The context of the
> above quote is one in
> > which meat is served with chiles served as a
> condiment on the side or
> > involved in the preparation or both, either of
> which is far more
> > typical of Mexican food than "chile con carne" of
> the type found at
> > chile cookoffs in the U.S. or canned by Hormel.
> In the context, I
> > wouldn't agree that "chile con carne" in the
> modern sense is at all
> > close to "chile with meat".  (And, yes, I'm aware
> that I'm spelling
> > that second vowel in the keyword inconsistently.)
> >
> > larry
> >

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
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From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 26 15:20:18 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 10:20:18 EST
Subject: Dumb clock defence
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.102018.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/26/02 5:33:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST writes:

> A translator colleague has asked me for the meaning of "dumb clock defence".

A misprint for "dumb cluck defense", in which someone defends himself by
pretending to be a "dumb cluck"?

     - Jim Landau


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Thu Dec 26 16:19:48 2002
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 11:19:48 -0500
Subject: WOTY
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.111948.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

are we subcategorizing again this year? There's a Most Otiose, right?

because some offerings (mine, for e.g. of the verb Winona) aren't
necessarily The WOTY, but are good nominations for a type of WOTY.

Most mean-spirited? Most quickly adopted by speakers under 24? Most
morphologically radical?

beth

beth lee simon
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
260 481 6761; fax 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu


From Friolly at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 26 19:28:54 2002
From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 14:28:54 EST
Subject: know from
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.142854.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The first time I remember hearing this was in the movie "The gods must be
Crazy."  The scientist, his buddy and the Bushman are going to drive
somewhere and the bushman just runs onto the vehicle without using the door.
The buddy says, "he doesn't know from doors."  So, I had always associated it
with South african english. I did hear it a few days ago on Hogan's Heroes,
though. Marya, the Russian woman, says "What do I know from Rockets?"
However, she is playing a native speaker of Russian.  I don't know why the
writers would have put that phrase into the story, though.  Is it common in
Russian-English?  I have never heard it from any of my Russian students or
contacts.
Fritz

> Now there's a response with a phrase I associate automatically with New York
> (or at least with American Yiddish familiarity): "Knows from X/Y/Z".  As
> in,
> "What would he know from wigs/sherry/lightbulbs."  I love that phrase, and
> would use it myself, if I were not nervous about either being
> misunderstood,
> or seen as affecting a non-native usage.  Thank you, Larry: you helped make
> my day. -- Millie


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Thu Dec 26 19:30:03 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:30:03 -0700
Subject: Chile con carne
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.123003.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This has been a staple dish in "Mexican food" restaurants in Texas along
the border since the 1940s at least. The first time I had Hungarian
goulash in Germany, I realized that it was basically the same dish. I
doubt that Anglos would have invented an authentic Spanish name for the
dish. It probably has its roots in the North Mexican hacienda culture
which was the source of our own cowboy tradition, and is the kind of tangy
stew that was probably often served by cooks on cattle drives. It may have
evolved from the original Spanish/Mexican recipe in the process.

        Rudy


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Dec 26 21:05:58 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 16:05:58 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <1a8.e567a81.2b3cb276@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.160558.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:28 PM -0500 12/26/02, Fritz Juengling wrote:
>The first time I remember hearing this was in the movie "The gods must be
>Crazy."  The scientist, his buddy and the Bushman are going to drive
>somewhere and the bushman just runs onto the vehicle without using the door.
>The buddy says, "he doesn't know from doors."  So, I had always associated it
>with South african english. I did hear it a few days ago on Hogan's Heroes,
>though. Marya, the Russian woman, says "What do I know from Rockets?"
>However, she is playing a native speaker of Russian.  I don't know why the
>writers would have put that phrase into the story, though.  Is it common in
>Russian-English?  I have never heard it from any of my Russian students or
>contacts.
>Fritz
>
My guess, based on the above, is that it was incorporated into New
York City English from Yiddish, which (again based on the above)
calqued "know from" from Russian.  All speculative, though.

Larry


From self at TOWSE.COM  Thu Dec 26 21:09:22 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 13:09:22 -0800
Subject: know from
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.130922.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> At 2:28 PM -0500 12/26/02, Fritz Juengling wrote:
> >The first time I remember hearing this was in the movie "The gods must be
> >Crazy."  The scientist, his buddy and the Bushman are going to drive
> >somewhere and the bushman just runs onto the vehicle without using the door.
> >The buddy says, "he doesn't know from doors."  So, I had always associated it
> >with South african english. I did hear it a few days ago on Hogan's Heroes,
> >though. Marya, the Russian woman, says "What do I know from Rockets?"
> >However, she is playing a native speaker of Russian.  I don't know why the
> >writers would have put that phrase into the story, though.  Is it common in
> >Russian-English?  I have never heard it from any of my Russian students or
> >contacts.
> >Fritz
> >
> My guess, based on the above, is that it was incorporated into New
> York City English from Yiddish, which (again based on the above)
> calqued "know from" from Russian.  All speculative, though.

I'm reminded of Fuji Kobiaji, the POW character in "McHale's
Navy," who used to use "Oy, vey!" Perhaps it was the
screenwriters just having fun?

Sal

--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Dec 26 21:23:47 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 16:23:47 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <p04320402ba311f558a0f@[130.132.166.208]>
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.162347.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Know from" looks to me like an inept translation of German "wissen von
[etwas]" = "know about/of [something]" (cf. "von hier" = "from here" etc.).

[Perhaps some of the scholars can correct or improve this casual notion.]

-- Doug Wilson


From zafav at HOTMAIL.COM  Thu Dec 26 22:33:59 2002
From: zafav at HOTMAIL.COM (zafer avþar)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 22:33:59 +0000
Subject: Dumb clock defence
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.223359.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't know the meaning of it, addition to this, Do you need Turkish
subtitles for your any project. In other words, do you need Turkish
translator
zafav at hotmail.com






>From: Jan Ivarsson TransEdit <jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Dumb clock defence
>Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 11:35:01 +0100
>
>A translator colleague has asked me for the meaning of "dumb clock
>defence". I don't have the slightest clue. Does anyone on the list know the
>expression?
>Jan Ivarsson, TransEdit
>Translator, Subtitler
>jan.ivarsson at transedit.st
>http://www.transedit.st


_________________________________________________________________
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From Friolly at AOL.COM  Thu Dec 26 23:26:01 2002
From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 18:26:01 EST
Subject: know from
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.182601.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

the German/Yiddish connection might explain 'know from' in South African
English.  There were many early settlers from Germany in South Africa. There
have also been many Jewish (many of whom were Yiddish speakers) settlers as
well.  Of course, Afrikaans descends from Dutch dialects.  So, these three
languages may have had some influence on S Afr Eng.  I don't know whether it
is found in Aus, NZ or any British English dialect, though.
Does Russian say 'know from'?
Fritz

> My guess, based on the above, is that it was incorporated into New
> York City English from Yiddish, which (again based on the above)
> calqued "know from" from Russian.  All speculative, though.


From self at TOWSE.COM  Thu Dec 26 23:36:52 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 15:36:52 -0800
Subject: Dumb clock defence
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.153652.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote:
>
> A translator colleague has asked me for the meaning of "dumb clock defence". I don't
> have the slightest clue. Does anyone on the list know the expression?

Found an instance of "clock defense" as a USAn football term, but
if you're talking of a USAn term, it doesn't make sense for the
spelling to be "defence" and not "defense."

<http://www.homersmith.net/Article%20Series/manageclock3.htm>

If you're using the clock defense stupidly, I'd imagine that
someone might call your plan a "dumb clock defense."

In what context is the term used?

Sal
--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Dec 27 00:42:43 2002
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 19:42:43 -0500
Subject: Dumb clock defence
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.194243.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Towse" <self at TOWSE.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: Dumb clock defence


> Jan Ivarsson TransEdit wrote:
> >
> > A translator colleague has asked me for the meaning of "dumb clock
defence". I don't
> > have the slightest clue. Does anyone on the list know the expression?

I am using the "dumb clock" defense in my pleadings about my computer being
off  :)

"I can't respond to your question, but I can tell you that the
calendar on your computer is off by 5 years.  It came in dated
12/24/97."

Rima


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Dec 27 00:57:47 2002
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 19:57:47 -0500
Subject: know from
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.195747.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fritz Juengling" <Friolly at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 2:28 PM
Subject: know from


> The first time I remember hearing this was in the movie "The gods must be
> Crazy."  The scientist, his buddy and the Bushman are going to drive
> somewhere and the bushman just runs onto the vehicle without using the
door.
> The buddy says, "he doesn't know from doors."  So, I had always associated
it
> with South african english. I did hear it a few days ago on Hogan's
Heroes,
> though. Marya, the Russian woman, says "What do I know from Rockets?"
> However, she is playing a native speaker of Russian.  I don't know why the
> writers would have put that phrase into the story, though.  Is it common
in
> Russian-English?  I have never heard it from any of my Russian students or
> contacts.
> Fritz
>
If I"m not repeating something that has been posted before, RHHDAS
attributes it to
    [<Yid- tsu visn fun gornisht 'to be ignorant'] and cites it from
1934(although Barry cited it earlier from 1933 at Temple U.)


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 27 02:32:07 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 21:32:07 EST
Subject: Judaica antedatings
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.213207.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What follows is my list of Jewish terms for which I have an antedating to the
date on the OED2 CD-ROM (of which I have the 1st edition).

The following terms I have not yet submitted to the OED but intend to in the
next day or so: Heshvan, kosher, perfect year, potato pancake, shochet, and
Veadar.  All others have already been submitted.

Bat mitzvah      (OED 1952)         Barry Popik has 1922
Chanukah         (OED 1891)    1843 [H] also 1864, 1868, 1872,
                               1878.  Barry Popik has 1841
Fast of Esther   (not in OED)  1843 [H]
Fast of Gedalia  (not in OED)  1843 [H]
fleishig         (not in OED)  1912 [B page 79]
gabbai           (not in OED)  1758 [C vol I pages 83f],
                               1903 [D vol V page 538]
goy              (OED 1841)    1800 [G page 592], sometime in
                               17th century [C vol II page 497]
Heshvan          (OED 1833)    1758  [C vol I page 83f]
High Holy Days   (not in OED)  1923 [E page 161]
Hoshanna Rabba   (not in OED)  1843 [H]
Karaism          (OED 1882 but "Karaitism" 1741)  1771 [F]
kehillah         (OED 1882)    1765 [C vol I page 86]
kishke           (OED 1936)    1912 [B page 145]
kosher           (OED 1851)    1825 [G page 525],
                                    Barry Popik has 1816
mahamad          (OED 1831)    1783 [C vol II page 157]
matzah           (OED 1846)    1825 [G pages 529ff]
milchig          (not in OED)  1912 [B page 79]
parnas           (OED 1831)    1759 [C vol I page 119]
perfect year     (not in OED)  1833 [OED under "Hesvan"]
potato pancake   (OED 1936)    1903 [A page 34]
Rosh Hashanah    (OED 186)     1766 [D vol X page 55]
Rosh Hodesh      (OED 1879)    1843 [H]
Shavuot          (OED 1892)    1843 [H]
Shemini Atzereth (not in OED)  1868 [I page 42]
shochet          (OED 1841)    1825 [G page 525]
Shofar           (OED 1833)    1793 [G page 657]
shul             (OED 1874)    1771 [C vol II page 58]
Simchat Torah    (OED 1891)    1843 [H]
Sukkot           (OED 1892)    1843 [H]
Tishah b'Av      (OED 1936)    1874 [J page 61]
ultra-Orthodox   (not in OED)  1849 [K, January 1849]
Veadar           (not in OED)  1758 [C vol I page 83f]
yad              (not in OED)  1771 [C vol II page 58]
yeshiva          (OED 1851)    1760 [C vol I page 85]
Yom Kippur       (OED 1854)    1735 [C vol I page 111],
                               1846 [OED under "Rosh Hashanah"]

The above list is hardly the final word.  For example, there exists a Hebrew
calendar, published in Newport, Rhode Island in 1806 by one Moses Lopez.  At
least one copy of this calendar is extant, at the American Jewish Archives in
Cincinnati.  Someone who can examine a copy of this calendar will probably
have a dozen antedatings of the above list.

           James A. Landau
           systems engineer
           FAA Technical Center (ACB-510/BCI)
           Atlantic City Int'l Airport NJ 08405 USA


        feetnotes

A. Kander _Settlement Cook Book 2nd edition_ 1903
B. Kander _Settlement Cook Book 6th edition_ 1912
C. Jacob Rader Marcus _Early American Jewry_
D. Jewish Encyclopedia, 1901-1905
E. Jeffrey S. Gurock, ed _American Jewish History_ vol I
F. Encyclopedia Britannica, 1st Edition, 1771
G. Blau and Baron, ed. _The Jews of the United States 1790-1840_
H. Jewish calendar in "The Occident" September 1843
I. E. Eppstein _Confirmant's Guide to the Mosaic Religion_
J. Vorspan and Gartner _History of the Jews of Los Angeles_
K. The Occident (magazine edited by Isaac Leeser, first published 1843)


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Dec 27 04:08:13 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 23:08:13 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <000701c2ad42$fa51b220$c9a35d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <THU.26.DEC.2002.230813.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>... RHHDAS attributes it to [<Yid- tsu visn fun gornisht 'to be ignorant']
>and cites it from
>1934(although Barry cited it earlier from 1933 at Temple U.)

I think this is roughly equivalent to my casual notion. The Yiddish phrase
here corresponds to (in standard German orthography) "zu wissen von gar
nichts", = "to know from/about absolutely nothing" (according to my
primitive understanding). But "know from" has wider application than just
"know from nothing" = "know [about] nothing". You can say "He knows from
horses" or "He doesn't know from horses", roughly "He knows [about]
horses", "He doesn't know [about] horses" respectively, I think. The German
(or Yiddish) word "von" has been 'glossed'/'translated' "from" whereas in
this context "about" might be more appropriate.

-- Doug Wilson


From rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU  Fri Dec 27 09:01:51 2002
From: rtroike at U.ARIZONA.EDU (Rudolph C Troike)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 02:01:51 -0700
Subject: know from
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.020151.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am familiar with the locution from at least the 40s, in South Texas,
almost always used somewhat jocularly in the deliberately informal "-g
dropping" pronunciation of "nothing" in the fixed phrase: "He don't know
from nothin'". The only likelihood of Yiddish influence in South Texas
would be via radio programs (Fibber McGee & Molly, Jack Benny, etc.) The
collocation can be a condensation of "He doesn't know X from Y" (X =
anything, Y = a hole in the ground, etc.).

        Rudy


From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU  Fri Dec 27 13:54:30 2002
From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 08:54:30 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <p04320402ba311f558a0f@[130.132.166.208]>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.085430.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I certainly associate the construction 'know from' as being a New
York Jewish  construction. It has certainly spread beyond New York
and beyond Jewish usage, but frequently when I hear it now, it is an
attempt to sound like a New Yorker or as a Jewish New Yorker.

I've also found the construction more common among people who
originate in Queens and Brooklyn than elsewhere.

The Oxford Guide to World English also cites it as as a Yiddish
construction (p. 198):

      They don't know from nothing ('They really don't know anything')


Philip Trauring


From jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST  Fri Dec 27 14:27:27 2002
From: jan.ivarsson at TRANSEDIT.ST (Jan Ivarsson TransEdit)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 15:27:27 +0100
Subject: know from
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.152727.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is no need to presume an influence from Yiddish - it can very well come directly from German. Warig's Deutsches W?rterbuch says under "wissen" e.g. "davon weiss ich nichts", "er tut, als w?sste er von nichts", etc.
Jan Ivarsson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Trauring" <philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [ADS-L] know from


> I certainly associate the construction 'know from' as being a New
> York Jewish  construction. It has certainly spread beyond New York
> and beyond Jewish usage, but frequently when I hear it now, it is an
> attempt to sound like a New Yorker or as a Jewish New Yorker.
>
> I've also found the construction more common among people who
> originate in Queens and Brooklyn than elsewhere.
>
> The Oxford Guide to World English also cites it as as a Yiddish
> construction (p. 198):
>
>       They don't know from nothing ('They really don't know anything')
>
>
> Philip Trauring
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 27 16:35:14 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:35:14 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212270155160.3588-100000@bast.u.arizona.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.113514.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:01 AM -0700 12/27/02, Rudolph C Troike wrote:
>I am familiar with the locution from at least the 40s, in South Texas,
>almost always used somewhat jocularly in the deliberately informal "-g
>dropping" pronunciation of "nothing" in the fixed phrase: "He don't know
>from nothin'". The only likelihood of Yiddish influence in South Texas
>would be via radio programs (Fibber McGee & Molly, Jack Benny, etc.) The
>collocation can be a condensation of "He doesn't know X from Y" (X =
>anything, Y = a hole in the ground, etc.).
>
Two problems with this:
1) You'd expect "know from" to be a negative polarity item like "know
X from Y", but it's not.
2) You'd expect "know from" to show up in areas without direct
Yiddish/German influence, since the negative polarity "know X from Y"
is not regionally restricted, but it doesn't.
3) You'd expect "He doesn't know from a hole in the ground" (or what
I assume is the unexpurgated version, "He doesn't know from a hole in
his ass")  to represent the original version, and I suspect this
doesn't occur at all.  These expressions (cf. also "He doesn't know
shit from shinola") allude to imperfections in the referent's powers
of discernment, not in his or her general knowledge about a
particular entity or field.  "know from" in the sense of 'know about'
is quite different.

I'm prepared to agree that the source may well be German and/or
Yiddish "von" translated as 'from' rather than the more appropriate
'about', and that "doesn't know from nothing" may have been a crucial
step on the way, but I don't think "He doesn't know X from Y" was
involved.

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 27 16:35:58 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:35:58 -0500
Subject: oops
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.113558.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Re last message:

I must have meant three problems.  I don't know from numbers.

L


From mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM  Fri Dec 27 17:20:51 2002
From: mailinglists at LOGOPHILIA.COM (Paul McFedries)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 12:20:51 -0500
Subject: Neology contests
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.122051.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Washington Post has been running a monthly neology contest for a
remarkable 20 years. Barbara Wallraff has her monthly "Word Fugitives"
column for The Atlantic Monthly. The Globe and Mail also has its weekly
"Challenge" contest which is quasi-neological. CBC Radio used to run a
weekly "Wanted Words" contest. Does anyone know of any other neology
contests that run regularly or semi-regularly in newspapers, magazines, Web
sites, or on the radio?

Thanks.

Paul


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 27 18:08:05 2002
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 13:08:05 EST
Subject: know from
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.130805.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 12/27/02 11:33:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

> You'd expect "He doesn't know from a hole in the ground" (or what
>  I assume is the unexpurgated version, "He doesn't know from a hole in
>  his ass")  to represent the original version, and I suspect this
>  doesn't occur at all.  These expressions (cf. also "He doesn't know
>  shit from shinola") allude to imperfections in the referent's powers
>  of discernment,

The original expression was "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the
ground".  I don't know of any variants.  Why these two items are juxtsposed
is less than obvious---I would guess the originator had a scatalogical image
of a man's anus and the hole in the ground he is defecating into.

An Annapolis midshipman once wrote "Sancho Panza, sitting on his burrow..."
The instructor wrote back "a burro is an ass.  A burrow is a hole in the
ground.  As a future Naval officer, you are expected to know the difference."

"shit from shinola" is an interesting expression, since the name "Shinola" (a
brand of shoe polish, well known in the mid-20th Century but no longer on the
market) is sometimes used as a euphemism for "shit".   Interpreted literally,
the person in question is unable to distinguish between a four-letter word
and its euphemism.  More plausibly, I suspect the expression "shit from
shinola" originated purely from the phonetic similarity between the two words.

       - Jim Landau

PS.  It is interesting to note that the suffix -ola, used in "Shinola",
"Motorola", "pianola", and "payola" (the last dated by MWCD10 as 1938) no
longer seems to be productive.  Does anyone have an idea why, or did that
particular suffix just fall out of fashion?

(One should not forget that it was the gunboat Indianola that was destroyed
by the USS Deluded People Cave In.)


From Friolly at AOL.COM  Fri Dec 27 18:27:32 2002
From: Friolly at AOL.COM (Fritz Juengling)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 13:27:32 EST
Subject: know from/Texas
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.132732.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Do we have to attribute this locution in south texas to Yiddish influence?
there were large numbers of Germans who immigrated to Texas (There is even an
impressive "Linguistic Atlas of Texas German").  Where is New Braunfels in
relation to where you are from?
Fritz

> I am familiar with the locution from at least the 40s, in South Texas,
> almost always used somewhat jocularly in the deliberately informal "-g
> dropping" pronunciation of "nothing" in the fixed phrase: "He don't know
> from nothin'". The only likelihood of Yiddish influence in South Texas
> would be via radio programs (Fibber McGee & Molly, Jack Benny, etc.) The
> collocation can be a condensation of "He doesn't know X from Y" (X =
> anything, Y = a hole in the ground, etc.).
>
>         Rudy


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 27 18:41:21 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 13:41:21 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <32.31f0fa50.2b3df105@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.134121.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:08 PM -0500 12/27/02, James A. Landau wrote:
>In a message dated 12/27/02 11:33:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
>  > You'd expect "He doesn't know from a hole in the ground" (or what
>>   I assume is the unexpurgated version, "He doesn't know from a hole in
>>   his ass")  to represent the original version, and I suspect this
>>   doesn't occur at all.  These expressions (cf. also "He doesn't know
>>   shit from shinola") allude to imperfections in the referent's powers
>>   of discernment,
>
>The original expression was "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the
>ground".  I don't know of any variants.

Actually, there is one (euphemistic) variant that I must have had in
the back of my mind when I was (mis)writing earlier: "doesn't know
his ass from his elbow".  I was thinking of the "doesn't know his ass
from a hole in the ground", though.  Sorry for the confusion.  (I
wonder why "elbow" was chosen for the euphemism--as a non-hole, it
seems as though an elbow would be a lot easier to distinguish from an
ass, or a hole in the ground.)


>Why these two items are juxtsposed
>is less than obvious---I would guess the originator had a scatalogical image
>of a man's anus and the hole in the ground he is defecating into.

I think it's just two holes that one should be capable of distinguishing.

>"shit from shinola" is an interesting expression, since the name "Shinola" (a
>brand of shoe polish, well known in the mid-20th Century but no longer on the
>market) is sometimes used as a euphemism for "shit".   Interpreted literally,
>the person in question is unable to distinguish between a four-letter word
>and its euphemism.  More plausibly, I suspect the expression "shit from
>shinola" originated purely from the phonetic similarity between the two words.
>

I'd guess that both factors are involved:  the color (typically
brown) and consistency of the product and the initial consonant.

>PS.  It is interesting to note that the suffix -ola, used in "Shinola",
>"Motorola", "pianola", and "payola" (the last dated by MWCD10 as 1938) no
>longer seems to be productive.  Does anyone have an idea why, or did that
>particular suffix just fall out of fashion?
>
>(One should not forget that it was the gunboat Indianola that was destroyed
>by the USS Deluded People Cave In.)

Could it be the payola scandals of the 50's?  I agree that "-ola"
does sound strangely quaint.

Larry


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Dec 27 18:53:24 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 13:53:24 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <32.31f0fa50.2b3df105@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.135324.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:08 PM 12/27/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 12/27/02 11:33:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
> > You'd expect "He doesn't know from a hole in the ground" (or what
> >  I assume is the unexpurgated version, "He doesn't know from a hole in
> >  his ass")  to represent the original version, and I suspect this
> >  doesn't occur at all.  These expressions (cf. also "He doesn't know
> >  shit from shinola") allude to imperfections in the referent's powers
> >  of discernment,
>
>The original expression was "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the
>ground".  I don't know of any variants.  Why these two items are juxtaposed
>is less than obvious---I would guess the originator had a scatalogical image
>of a man's anus and the hole in the ground he is defecating into.

My father used "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground"
frequently (born 1900 in rural Minnesota, of Norwegian- and Swedish-born
parents).  Believe me, there wasn't any Yiddish influence in that
area!  However, German immigrants were co-existent in the area.  I always
wondered where he got that expression; as a kid, I just assumed he was so
clever (and generally scatological in his talk) that he made this, and
others, up!


From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU  Fri Dec 27 20:03:10 2002
From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 15:03:10 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021227134816.020bdee0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.150310.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think there are two different constructions here. One is 'know
from' and the  other is 'know X from Y'.

Examples such as 'he doesn't know his ass from his elbow' are also
idioms, whose constructions I would argue are not easily tracked and
frequently flaunt normal grammatical rules. Does anyone have an
example of this 'know X from Y' construction that isn't an insult?

I'm not convinced the two constructions have the same origin.

A typical NY Jewish construction might be self-depreciating - such as
'I don't know from that'. I don't think I've ever heard someone say
'I don't know my ass from my elbow'. :-)

Philip

At 1:53 PM -0500 12/27/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>At 01:08 PM 12/27/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 12/27/02 11:33:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>>
>>>  You'd expect "He doesn't know from a hole in the ground" (or what
>>>   I assume is the unexpurgated version, "He doesn't know from a hole in
>>>   his ass")  to represent the original version, and I suspect this
>>>   doesn't occur at all.  These expressions (cf. also "He doesn't know
>>>   shit from shinola") allude to imperfections in the referent's powers
>>>   of discernment,
>>
>>The original expression was "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the
>>ground".  I don't know of any variants.  Why these two items are juxtaposed
>>is less than obvious---I would guess the originator had a scatalogical image
>>of a man's anus and the hole in the ground he is defecating into.
>
>My father used "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground"
>frequently (born 1900 in rural Minnesota, of Norwegian- and Swedish-born
>parents).  Believe me, there wasn't any Yiddish influence in that
>area!  However, German immigrants were co-existent in the area.  I always
>wondered where he got that expression; as a kid, I just assumed he was so
>clever (and generally scatological in his talk) that he made this, and
>others, up!


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Dec 27 20:35:12 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 15:35:12 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <p05200f00ba3255678ec8@[192.168.0.1]>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.153512.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:03 PM -0500 12/27/02, Philip Trauring wrote:
>I think there are two different constructions here. One is 'know
>from' and the  other is 'know X from Y'.

Precisely.

>
>Examples such as 'he doesn't know his ass from his elbow' are also
>idioms, whose constructions I would argue are not easily tracked and
>frequently flaunt normal grammatical rules. Does anyone have an
>example of this 'know X from Y' construction that isn't an insult?

Well, the positive counterparts would represent such cases (albeit
ones occurring only in a context in which there's some reason to
suspect that the subject did NOT have the powers of discernment
referred to).  A related example involving not "doesn't know Y from
Z" but the related "can't tell Y from Z" is (if I'm not mistaken,
courtesy of Hamlet) "I can tell a hawk from a handsaw."  I would
submit that it's even possible to get "I know my ass from a hole in
the ground", and there are several such examples available on google.
These are not insults, but defenses against (actual or implied)
insults.

Note that the possibility of getting "X can't tell Y from Z"
alongside "X doesn't know Y from Z" makes it less likely that we can
simply call the latter (or the former) an unanalyzable idiom.
There's also "X can't tell Y and Z apart", again more likely in
negative contexts, and related constructions like "How do/can you
tell Y and Z apart?" or "How can you tell Y from Z?"  No, not "How
do/can you tell your ass from a hole in the ground?" but "How do you
tell a finch from a cardinal?" or "How do you tell a restrictive
relative clause from a non-restrictive one?"  Now, I agree that it's
harder to get these with "know from" than with "tell from", but the
claim that the former is an idiom and thus non-compositional seems a
bit too strong.

>
>I'm not convinced the two constructions ["know Y from Z", "know from
>Z"] have the same origin.

As argued earlier, they pretty clearly don't.

Larry


From philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU  Fri Dec 27 20:57:54 2002
From: philip at CS.BRANDEIS.EDU (Philip Trauring)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 15:57:54 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <p0432040aba3266bbe965@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.155754.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>I'm not convinced the two constructions ["know Y from Z", "know from
>>Z"] have the same origin.
>
>As argued earlier, they pretty clearly don't.
>
>Larry

Oops. I meant to say that I was convinced they DO NOT have the same
origin. I don't know from typing.

Philip


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Fri Dec 27 23:04:05 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 18:04:05 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <p05200f00ba3255678ec8@[192.168.0.1]>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.180405.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 27 Dec 2002, Philip Trauring wrote:

#I think there are two different constructions here. One is 'know
#from' and the  other is 'know X from Y'.

I agree.

#Examples such as 'he doesn't know his ass from his elbow' are also
#idioms, whose constructions I would argue are not easily tracked and
#frequently flaunt normal grammatical rules. Does anyone have an
#example of this 'know X from Y' construction that isn't an insult?

This is made-up but imho plausible, and deprecatory but not just an
insult, but rather contentful:

        You can't hire her as our webmaster! Why, she doesn't
        know Java from Javascript!

(Neither do I, but I'm not applying for a job that requires it.)

So I don't think 'know X from Y' is an idiom. It's a construction
meaning 'know / recognize / understand the difference between X and Y'.
"Doesn't know shit from shinola" / "his ass from a hole in the ground"
are idioms built on literal, grammatically correct uses of the
construction.

"Know from X" is a different breed of equine entirely.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM  Fri Dec 27 23:14:45 2002
From: TJoyce at BELLBOYD.COM (Joyce, Thomas F.)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 17:14:45 -0600
Subject: Dumb clock defence
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.171445.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Maybe it's related to the observation that even a broken clock is right twice each day.


TFJ


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From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Dec 28 02:47:36 2002
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 21:47:36 -0500
Subject: know from
In-Reply-To: <p04320408ba324da90594@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.27.DEC.2002.214736.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Actually, there is one (euphemistic) variant that I must have had in
>the back of my mind when I was (mis)writing earlier: "doesn't know
>his ass from his elbow".  I was thinking of the "doesn't know his ass
>from a hole in the ground", though.  Sorry for the confusion.  (I
>wonder why "elbow" was chosen for the euphemism--as a non-hole, it
>seems as though an elbow would be a lot easier to distinguish from an
>ass, or a hole in the ground.)

The alternative to "ass" is not necessarily a euphemism IMHO. In my
experience it can be almost anything. I remember for example "doesn't know
his ass from page eight" from my school days, the sense [if any] of "p. 8"
entirely opaque to me. Similarly, with similar sense, "couldn't find his
ass with both hands/with a flashlight/with a roadmap/etc." The idea is to
include the rude "ass" somehow, for force/machismo.

"Ass from elbow" I believe is favored by alliteration. There is a
comparable expression "asses [or assholes} and elbows" referring to
dedicated labor: "You swabbies get busy scrubbing that deck; when I come
back, I don't want to see nothing but assholes and elbows!" ... i.e., "I
don't want to see anybody walking around smoking; I want to see everybody
on hands and knees scrubbing" [buttocks and elbows prominent from the rear
view, but "ass(hole)" favored by a desire for rudeness].

-- Doug Wilson


From t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  Sat Dec 28 13:57:25 2002
From: t-irons at MOREHEAD-ST.EDU (Terry Irons)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 08:57:25 -0500
Subject: FWD: inquiry
In-Reply-To: <000801c2ae01$c2bbc0c0$b3d44240@D2CWCL01>
Message-ID: <SAT.28.DEC.2002.085725.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Any thoughts on this request?  Send them to Joe (or the list).


Quoting Joe <pagejoe at wizwire.com>:

> Hello Terry Irons: I came across your name while playing around with my
> laptop in search of the origin of the euphemism "senior citizen." I'm
> told it was coined by an ad man in the '50s or '60s who didn't want to
> call people "old." I'm still unable to check it out. Any help will be
> welcomed with this old guy's open arms. Thanks, Joe Carroll
>



**************************
Terry Lynn Irons


From preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU  Sat Dec 28 14:36:36 2002
From: preston at PILOT.MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 09:36:36 -0500
Subject: Is the old trick the source, or does life imitate language?
In-Reply-To: <32.31f0fa50.2b3df105@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.28.DEC.2002.093636.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does the expression precede or come from the trick? In the trick, as
we played it long ago, the unwary was told that he or she did not
know his or her ass from a hole in the ground. When they protested,
the trickster (ah, we were such clever wags then!) took a stick and
drew two circles in the ground. The first was pointed to, and the
trickster declared it to be "your ass-hole." The second was called "a
hole in the ground." The clever trickster then asked the unwary one
to point to  his or her ass-hole. When the correct drawing was
chosen, the trickster pointed to the duped's backside and declared
that his or her true ass-hole was located there, thus confirming the
original accusation.

dInIs



In a message dated 12/27/02 11:33:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:

>  You'd expect "He doesn't know from a hole in the ground" (or what
>   I assume is the unexpurgated version, "He doesn't know from a hole in
>   his ass")  to represent the original version, and I suspect this
>   doesn't occur at all.  These expressions (cf. also "He doesn't know
>   shit from shinola") allude to imperfections in the referent's powers
>   of discernment,

The original expression was "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the
ground".  I don't know of any variants.  Why these two items are juxtsposed
is less than obvious---I would guess the originator had a scatalogical image
of a man's anus and the hole in the ground he is defecating into.

An Annapolis midshipman once wrote "Sancho Panza, sitting on his burrow..."
The instructor wrote back "a burro is an ass.  A burrow is a hole in the
ground.  As a future Naval officer, you are expected to know the difference."

"shit from shinola" is an interesting expression, since the name "Shinola" (a
brand of shoe polish, well known in the mid-20th Century but no longer on the
market) is sometimes used as a euphemism for "shit".   Interpreted literally,
the person in question is unable to distinguish between a four-letter word
and its euphemism.  More plausibly, I suspect the expression "shit from
shinola" originated purely from the phonetic similarity between the two words.

        - Jim Landau

PS.  It is interesting to note that the suffix -ola, used in "Shinola",
"Motorola", "pianola", and "payola" (the last dated by MWCD10 as 1938) no
longer seems to be productive.  Does anyone have an idea why, or did that
particular suffix just fall out of fashion?

(One should not forget that it was the gunboat Indianola that was destroyed
by the USS Deluded People Cave In.)

--
Dennis R. Preston
Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Languages
740 Wells Hall A
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office - (517) 353-0740
Fax - (517) 432-2736


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Dec 28 15:30:33 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 10:30:33 -0500
Subject: Balloonatics, Wuzabeasts and more from Kenya
Message-ID: <SAT.28.DEC.2002.103033.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Kenya.  Two more weeks of the darn animals and no internet.  I'm going to go nuts.  We sit in a bus, drive around all day, and I'm five minutes away from eating again.
   The Kenyan election is over and the votes are being counted.  Hopefully, they'll have no "hanging Chads" or "swinging Tanzanias."

CHILE CON CARNE--The citation I provided is probably closer to "carne con chile."

BALLOONATICS--Fans of balloon safaris, or ballooning.

WUZABEAST--Dead wildebeasts or other animals, not identifiable.

WILDEBUS--A tourist bus, one of about 20 that surround that poor leopard up in the tree.

NO HOOTING--No Honking.

PRONKING--Animal's jumping.

MANDAZI--Up-country name for the donut.
MAHAMRI--coastal (Muslim) name for the donut.

LOBSTER "BWANA T"
PRAWNS PIRI PIRI--Seen on a local menu at the Verandah Garden Restaurant.  Is "piri piri" in the works for OED?

SAFARI--I was told that the Thompson gazelle was named after Thompson, who gave us the first safari.  I haven't checked.


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Sat Dec 28 18:48:34 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 13:48:34 -0500
Subject: FWD: inquiry
In-Reply-To: <1041083845.3e0dadc58b2a0@ldap.morehead-st.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.28.DEC.2002.134834.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My memory is that the phrase was coined by Hubert Humphrey when he was
promoting welfare reform in the late '50s and early '60s--probably when he
was running for President in 1960.  At least we loyal Minnesota DFLers gave
him credit for it in the good old days before Vietnam.  He also conceived
of the Peace Corps, which Kennedy then appropriated when he beat out
Humphrey in the primaries (I remember, sadly, the day he lost West Virginia).

At 08:57 AM 12/28/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Any thoughts on this request?  Send them to Joe (or the list).
>
>
>Quoting Joe <pagejoe at wizwire.com>:
>
> > Hello Terry Irons: I came across your name while playing around with my
> > laptop in search of the origin of the euphemism "senior citizen." I'm
> > told it was coined by an ad man in the '50s or '60s who didn't want to
> > call people "old." I'm still unable to check it out. Any help will be
> > welcomed with this old guy's open arms. Thanks, Joe Carroll
> >
>
>
>
>**************************
>Terry Lynn Irons


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Sat Dec 28 18:53:04 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 13:53:04 -0500
Subject: Is the old trick the source, or does life imitate language?
In-Reply-To: <a05010402ba3366147f02@[35.12.22.197]>
Message-ID: <SAT.28.DEC.2002.135304.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wow, what clever kids!  But my father used the phrase totally seriously, as
the ultimate slander, long before you and I were born.  So, here's one for
Barry Popik to research.

At 09:36 AM 12/28/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Does the expression precede or come from the trick? In the trick, as
>we played it long ago, the unwary was told that he or she did not
>know his or her ass from a hole in the ground. When they protested,
>the trickster (ah, we were such clever wags then!) took a stick and
>drew two circles in the ground. The first was pointed to, and the
>trickster declared it to be "your ass-hole." The second was called "a
>hole in the ground." The clever trickster then asked the unwary one
>to point to  his or her ass-hole. When the correct drawing was
>chosen, the trickster pointed to the duped's backside and declared
>that his or her true ass-hole was located there, thus confirming the
>original accusation.
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
>In a message dated 12/27/02 11:33:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>
>>  You'd expect "He doesn't know from a hole in the ground" (or what
>>   I assume is the unexpurgated version, "He doesn't know from a hole in
>>   his ass")  to represent the original version, and I suspect this
>>   doesn't occur at all.  These expressions (cf. also "He doesn't know
>>   shit from shinola") allude to imperfections in the referent's powers
>>   of discernment,
>
>The original expression was "He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the
>ground".  I don't know of any variants.  Why these two items are juxtsposed
>is less than obvious---I would guess the originator had a scatalogical image
>of a man's anus and the hole in the ground he is defecating into.
>
>An Annapolis midshipman once wrote "Sancho Panza, sitting on his burrow..."
>The instructor wrote back "a burro is an ass.  A burrow is a hole in the
>ground.  As a future Naval officer, you are expected to know the difference."
>
>"shit from shinola" is an interesting expression, since the name "Shinola" (a
>brand of shoe polish, well known in the mid-20th Century but no longer on the
>market) is sometimes used as a euphemism for "shit".   Interpreted literally,
>the person in question is unable to distinguish between a four-letter word
>and its euphemism.  More plausibly, I suspect the expression "shit from
>shinola" originated purely from the phonetic similarity between the two words.
>
>        - Jim Landau
>
>PS.  It is interesting to note that the suffix -ola, used in "Shinola",
>"Motorola", "pianola", and "payola" (the last dated by MWCD10 as 1938) no
>longer seems to be productive.  Does anyone have an idea why, or did that
>particular suffix just fall out of fashion?
>
>(One should not forget that it was the gunboat Indianola that was destroyed
>by the USS Deluded People Cave In.)
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>740 Wells Hall A
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>Office - (517) 353-0740
>Fax - (517) 432-2736


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sat Dec 28 22:39:54 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 17:39:54 -0500
Subject: WOTY Nomination: Captcha
Message-ID: <SAT.28.DEC.2002.173954.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This WOTY nomination is a late entry, coming into common usage only
recently: captcha. A captcha distinguishes a human from a machine.
Usually these devices are used to prevent repeated automated logins to
web sites, such as free email services, which might be abused by
spammers or others of ill intent.

One mention:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/28694.html

The word is supposedly an acronym for Completely Automated Public
Turing tests to tell Computers and Humans Apart).


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Dec 29 20:04:39 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:04:39 -0500
Subject: FWD: inquiry
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.150439.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        It's a little old for Humphrey.  The OED has 1938:  "Time 24 Oct. 12/2 Mr. Downey had an inspiration to do something on behalf of what he calls, for campaign purposes, 'our senior citizens'."  I have no idea who Mr. Downey was.  The State of Washington passed a Senior Citizens Grants Act by ballot initiative in 1941.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Beverly Flanigan [mailto:flanigan at OHIOU.EDU]
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 1:49 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: FWD: inquiry


My memory is that the phrase was coined by Hubert Humphrey when he was
promoting welfare reform in the late '50s and early '60s--probably when he
was running for President in 1960.  At least we loyal Minnesota DFLers gave
him credit for it in the good old days before Vietnam.  He also conceived
of the Peace Corps, which Kennedy then appropriated when he beat out
Humphrey in the primaries (I remember, sadly, the day he lost West Virginia).

At 08:57 AM 12/28/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Any thoughts on this request?  Send them to Joe (or the list).
>
>
>Quoting Joe <pagejoe at wizwire.com>:
>
> > Hello Terry Irons: I came across your name while playing around with my
> > laptop in search of the origin of the euphemism "senior citizen." I'm
> > told it was coined by an ad man in the '50s or '60s who didn't want to
> > call people "old." I'm still unable to check it out. Any help will be
> > welcomed with this old guy's open arms. Thanks, Joe Carroll
> >
>
>
>
>**************************
>Terry Lynn Irons


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Dec 29 21:00:55 2002
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:00:55 -0500
Subject: FWD: inquiry
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.160055.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is a "Mr. Downey" D-CA, mentioned in relationship to Social Security
in 1939, at http://www.ssa.gov/history/reports/crsleghist3.html.  Seems
likely.

Sam Clements
----- Original Message -----
From: "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: FWD: inquiry


>         It's a little old for Humphrey.  The OED has 1938:  "Time 24 Oct.
12/2 Mr. Downey had an inspiration to do something on behalf of what he
calls, for campaign purposes, 'our senior citizens'."  I have no idea who
Mr. Downey was.  The State of Washington passed a Senior Citizens Grants Act
by ballot initiative in 1941.
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Beverly Flanigan [mailto:flanigan at OHIOU.EDU]
> Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 1:49 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: FWD: inquiry
>
>
> My memory is that the phrase was coined by Hubert Humphrey when he was
> promoting welfare reform in the late '50s and early '60s--probably when he
> was running for President in 1960.  At least we loyal Minnesota DFLers
gave
> him credit for it in the good old days before Vietnam.  He also conceived
> of the Peace Corps, which Kennedy then appropriated when he beat out
> Humphrey in the primaries (I remember, sadly, the day he lost West
Virginia).
>
> At 08:57 AM 12/28/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >Any thoughts on this request?  Send them to Joe (or the list).
> >
> >
> >Quoting Joe <pagejoe at wizwire.com>:
> >
> > > Hello Terry Irons: I came across your name while playing around with
my
> > > laptop in search of the origin of the euphemism "senior citizen." I'm
> > > told it was coined by an ad man in the '50s or '60s who didn't want to
> > > call people "old." I'm still unable to check it out. Any help will be
> > > welcomed with this old guy's open arms. Thanks, Joe Carroll
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >**************************
> >Terry Lynn Irons
>


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Dec 29 22:47:22 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:47:22 -0800
Subject: Commoditized?
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.144722.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In an article in today's (Sunday) SF Chronicle on the economic
problems facing Union Square, the discussion is on balancing familiar
chain stores (e.g. Crate & Barrel or William Sonoma) found in
suburban malls with upscale, more prestigious establishments.

There is the quote: "We have to be very, very careful how much we let
Union Square get commoditized.  Union Square is getting to the status
of being the last holdout, with retail being so commoditized...."

I hadn't heard it before.

Rima


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Dec 29 23:17:10 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:17:10 -0500
Subject: Commoditized?
In-Reply-To: <a05200f00ba352add2820@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.181710.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Rima writes:
>There is the quote: "We have to be very, very careful how much we let
>Union Square get commoditized.  Union Square is getting to the status
>of being the last holdout, with retail being so commoditized...."
>
>I hadn't heard it before.
 ~~~~~~~
Is it useful?  Does it say something that "commodify" & "commodification"
which have been around for a while, don't already say?
A. Murie


From sclements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Dec 30 00:09:12 2002
From: sclements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 19:09:12 -0500
Subject: WASP
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.190912.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M-W cites from 1957.  I know all about the 1962/64 cites from
Palmore/Baltzell.  What I want is the cite from 1957.  Any help?  Or should
I just write to M-W.  They've always replied before.  I just wanted a faster
answer.

Sam Clements

I think I checked the archive, but found nothing.


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Dec 30 00:14:55 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 16:14:55 -0800
Subject: Commoditized?
In-Reply-To: <l03130300ba35321641c0@[12.107.140.65]>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.161455.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Is it useful?  Does it say something that "commodify" & "commodification"
>which have been around for a while, don't already say?

Not to me.

Rima


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 30 01:33:52 2002
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 20:33:52 -0500
Subject: WASP
In-Reply-To: <000501c2af97$afc15240$c9a35d18@neo.rr.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.203352.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 29 Dec 2002, Sam Clements wrote:

> M-W cites from 1957.  I know all about the 1962/64 cites from
> Palmore/Baltzell.  What I want is the cite from 1957.  Any help?  Or
> should I just write to M-W.  They've always replied before.  I just
> wanted a faster answer.

This is probably the 1957 citation I discovered and reported in an article
in American Speech some years ago:

1957 Andrew M. Hacker in _Amer. Polit. Sci. Rev._ LI. 1011
They are "WASPs" -- in the cocktail party jargon of the sociologists.
That is, they are white, they are Anglo-Saxon in origin, and they are
Protestant.

This may well be the earliest appearance in print of the term.

Fred Shapiro

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From dave at WILTON.NET  Mon Dec 30 02:15:25 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 18:15:25 -0800
Subject: Commoditized?
In-Reply-To: <l03130300ba35321641c0@[12.107.140.65]>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.181525.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>:

>  Rima writes:
> >There is the quote: "We have to be very, very careful how much we let
> >Union Square get commoditized.  Union Square is getting to the status
> >of being the last holdout, with retail being so commoditized...."
> >
> >I hadn't heard it before.
>  ~~~~~~~
> Is it useful?  Does it say something that "commodify" & "commodification"
> which have been around for a while, don't already say?
> A. Murie

"Commoditize" has been around for a while--I first noticed it about five years
ago; which means its probably older than that. It means the same
as "commodify."

I've never heard "commodify" used in the wild (i.e., among business and
marketing people). In my experience it has always been "commoditize." I had to
look up "commodify" to make sure it didn't mean to "modify together." By not
shifting the T to an F "commoditize" is clearer and the meaning is instantly
recognizable to those who are unfamiliar with the word.

--
Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net/dave.htm


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Dec 30 03:44:15 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 22:44:15 -0500
Subject: Commoditized?
In-Reply-To: <1041214525.3e0fac3d84e14@webmail.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.224415.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Dave Wilton writes:
>"Commoditize" has been around for a while--I first noticed it about five years
>ago; which means its probably older than that. It means the same
>as "commodify."
>
>I've never heard "commodify" used in the wild (i.e., among business and
>marketing people). In my experience it has always been "commoditize." I had to
>look up "commodify" to make sure it didn't mean to "modify together." By not
>shifting the T to an F "commoditize" is clearer and the meaning is instantly
>recognizable to those who are unfamiliar with the word.
>
~~~~~~
This suggests that it is used in a more technical sense.  "Commodify" I
think usually has a disparaging or deploring tone.  As in deprecating the
commodification of cultural values, &c.
A. Murie


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Mon Dec 30 04:31:39 2002
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 23:31:39 -0500
Subject: Probably not WOTY, but that's too bad
Message-ID: <SUN.29.DEC.2002.233139.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In an attempt to improve myself culturally, tonight I was watching Bruce
Willis in one of the iterations of Die Hard, this time on a broadcast
channel rather than a cable movie channel, and that required a great deal
of overdubbing, sometimes quite creative. Every few minutes one of the
characters would aggressively call another a "melon farmer." For those of
us who were sitting there drinking bad beer, eating chips, and watching
trashy movies, I have no doubt that "melon farmer" has become a permanent
addition to our vocabulary.

D


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Dec 30 11:07:12 2002
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 06:07:12 -0500
Subject: Point Five and more
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.060712.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Greetings from Tanzania.  My message from yesterday didn't go through.  I have only four minutes.

POINT-FIVE--A child of mixed marriages, half-white and half-black.

HONEYMOONERS--A male and female animal seen together.

PSV--Public Service Vehicle.  In OED?

KANGA--Cloth for Kenyan dress.

IT IS AN OFFENCE TO OVERSPEED--Sign seen in Kenya.  Overspeed and not speed?

DON"T FEED OR ENCOURAGE THE MONKEYS--Another sign.  I got all the monkeys together, then told them they'd get no food and would never get into Yale.


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Dec 30 15:09:06 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:09:06 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.100906.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just heard on NPR Androcles pronounced as an'drah kuh leez.  I
haven't consulted very many sources yet.  But, WM, AHD4, ACD, NCCN, and
RH do not show a variant to what I have always said... 'an druh kleez.
Where did the intrusive syllable come from...a typo?

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec 30 17:21:38 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:21:38 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <msg57541.thr-13ecbce.f555e@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.122138.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That kind of schwa insertion to break up a consonant cluster (in this case
[kl]) is common.  Cf. "athelete/atheletic."  I'd be curious to know who
said the word?

At 10:09 AM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>I just heard on NPR Androcles pronounced as an'drah kuh leez.  I
>haven't consulted very many sources yet.  But, WM, AHD4, ACD, NCCN, and
>RH do not show a variant to what I have always said... 'an druh kleez.
>Where did the intrusive syllable come from...a typo?
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>barnhart at highlands.com


From ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Dec 30 17:09:42 2002
From: ADS-L at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:09:42 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.120942.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How would you characterize this on a scale of usage, stsndard or
substandard or informal or illiterate (a category I suggest for the
speech of people who are not familiar with the icons of educated folk
in a culture)?

Happy New Year and best wishes,
Dave

Barnhart at highlands.com


From avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET  Mon Dec 30 18:27:31 2002
From: avgilbert at PRODIGY.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:27:31 -0800
Subject: ....the lion
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.102731.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David:


> I just heard on NPR Androcles pronounced as an'drah kuh leez.  I
> haven't consulted very many sources yet.  But, WM, AHD4, ACD, NCCN, and
> RH do not show a variant to what I have always said... 'an druh kleez.
> Where did the intrusive syllable come from...a typo?

INteresting.  It sounds as if the speaker "saw" an extra syllable and
pronounced it that way.  At least that's the way I "read" the situation.
Anne G


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Dec 30 18:51:18 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:51:18 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <002101c2b031$1e9ee0d0$dea1f5d1@annehpbrww9plk>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.135118.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Anne Gilbert wrote:

#> I just heard on NPR Androcles pronounced as an'drah kuh leez.  I
#> haven't consulted very many sources yet.  But, WM, AHD4, ACD, NCCN, and
#> RH do not show a variant to what I have always said... 'an druh kleez.
#> Where did the intrusive syllable come from...a typo?
#
#INteresting.

I "see" that comment with one eyebrow raised :-)   "..., captain."

          \ ,
        ^ o o ^

#  It sounds as if the speaker "saw" an extra syllable and pronounced
#it that way.  At least that's the way I "read" the situation.

Or "saw" the word with stress on the "oc" and then inserted a schwa by
their own (dialectal?) rule, bringing it away from (a non-epenthetic
pronunciation of) "Shockley" and towards "apocalypse" and "broccoli".

-- Mark A. Mandel


From editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM  Mon Dec 30 18:51:54 2002
From: editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM (Erin McKean)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:51:54 -0600
Subject: "pretexting"
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.125154.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the Chicago Trib today (sec 1 p. 8 col. 2):

(The woman mentioned, Amy Boyer, was killed by a stalker who got her
SSN and work address through Docusearch. Her parents are suing
Docusearch for invasion of privacy, negligence, etc.)

Schulman, at the hearing, argued that none of the information
Docusearch provided was private. Docusearch had hired a woman who
called Boyer and her family to get her work address without revealing
why she was calling, a technique known as "pretexting."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 30 19:10:55 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:10:55 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <002101c2b031$1e9ee0d0$dea1f5d1@annehpbrww9plk>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.141055.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>David:
>
>
>>  I just heard on NPR Androcles pronounced as an'drah kuh leez.  I
>>  haven't consulted very many sources yet.  But, WM, AHD4, ACD, NCCN, and
>>  RH do not show a variant to what I have always said... 'an druh kleez.
>>  Where did the intrusive syllable come from...a typo?
>
>INteresting.  It sounds as if the speaker "saw" an extra syllable and
>pronounced it that way.  At least that's the way I "read" the situation.
>Anne G

Yes, that was my take on it too.  Alternatively, one might suspect an
attempt at a rhyme with "broccolis", perhaps for a limerick.

L


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 30 19:12:08 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:12:08 -0800
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <msg57541.thr-13ecbce.f555e@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.111208.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The only explanation has to be that this person had been involved in a
holiday limerick contest, the kind in which each person is given a rhyme
word for line 1 and has to supply the rest. So the word was obviously
"broccolis," and Androcoles was the match for line 5. Probably line 2 had
an aberration of Sophocles to go with the rest. Something like this, in
other words:

While tasting her holiday broccolis,
My wife was reminded of Sophocles--
Not laughin', not cryin',
Not sittin', but lyin' (lion),
Which should have engendered Androcoles.

Peter R.

On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Barnhart wrote:

> I just heard on NPR Androcles pronounced as an'drah kuh leez.  I
> haven't consulted very many sources yet.  But, WM, AHD4, ACD, NCCN, and
> RH do not show a variant to what I have always said... 'an druh kleez.
> Where did the intrusive syllable come from...a typo?


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec 30 19:14:06 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:14:06 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <msg57542.thr-8a92b846.d8d2f@highlands.com>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.141406.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Schwa insertion is very normal and generally unnoticed by speakers.  Some
may monitor themselves and "correct" the pronunciation in certain
circumstances, but pronunciation is usually so deeply ingrained it's not a
big deal to the speaker--if a hearer raises eyebrows (as Mark did) or
repeats the word, maybe the user would change it, but probably not.  That's
why I was wondering who used the form, and whether there was a pause or
other reaction on the part of the hearer.

It's most definitely not "substandard" or "illiterate"; it represents a
normal phonological process, much like its opposite, elision, as in
"s'pose" or "gonna."

At 12:09 PM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>How would you characterize this on a scale of usage, stsndard or
>substandard or informal or illiterate (a category I suggest for the
>speech of people who are not familiar with the icons of educated folk
>in a culture)?
>
>Happy New Year and best wishes,
>Dave
>
>Barnhart at highlands.com


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Mon Dec 30 19:21:22 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:21:22 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021230110334.11695D-100000@calvin.linfield.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.142122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Peter Richardson wrote:

#The only explanation has to be that this person had been involved in a
#holiday limerick contest, the kind in which each person is given a rhyme
#word for line 1 and has to supply the rest. So the word was obviously
#"broccolis," and Androcoles was the match for line 5. Probably line 2 had
#an aberration of Sophocles to go with the rest. Something like this, in
#other words:
#
#While tasting her holiday broccolis,
#My wife was reminded of Sophocles--
#Not laughin', not cryin',
#Not sittin', but lyin' (lion),
#Which should have engendered Androcoles.

<groan> -- In the past couple of weeks I have twice heard, on children's
radio programs, a song called "Broccoli and Chocolate" (both nouns
trisyllabic, and "chocolate" rhymed with "talk a lot").

-- Mark A. Mandel
   http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/
   a Steven Brust Dragaera fan website

(Hmm, that's the wrong .sig for this list. Oh, well, I'll leave it in.)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec 30 19:16:05 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:16:05 -0500
Subject: "pretexting"
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.141605.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        "Pretexting," or "pretext calling," has been around for a few years.  Commissioner Mozelle Thompson of the Federal Trade Commission described it in 1998, in testimony available at http://www.ftc.gov/os/1998/9807/pretexttes.htm:

        >>"Pretexting" is a term coined by the private investigation industry, and refers to the practice of obtaining personal information under false pretenses. For example, an investigator who obtains a bank account balance by posing as the account holder would be engaged in pretexting.<<

        For an earlier cite, here's a story about a private investigation firm, from the L.A. Times on 10/9/88:

        >>Kroll employees sometimes do not identify themselves or their purpose in telephone calls. They are called "pretext calls," and there are no written guidelines for them. Kroll investigators simply say they are working for a consulting firm or doing business research. On rare occasions, they make up names for themselves and their employers, but they are not supposed to say that they work for another real company. Or a newspaper.<<

        Pretext calling to financial institutions was outlawed in 1999 by the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act (which does not use the term).  As it happens, I do quite a bit of work with the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, particularly its privacy provisions.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Erin McKean [mailto:editor at VERBATIMMAG.COM]
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 1:52 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: "pretexting"


In the Chicago Trib today (sec 1 p. 8 col. 2):

(The woman mentioned, Amy Boyer, was killed by a stalker who got her
SSN and work address through Docusearch. Her parents are suing
Docusearch for invasion of privacy, negligence, etc.)

Schulman, at the hearing, argued that none of the information
Docusearch provided was private. Docusearch had hired a woman who
called Boyer and her family to get her work address without revealing
why she was calling, a technique known as "pretexting."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 30 19:43:18 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:43:18 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021230140645.01f22938@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.144318.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beverly writes:

>Schwa insertion is very normal and generally unnoticed by speakers.  Some
>may monitor themselves and "correct" the pronunciation in certain
>circumstances, but pronunciation is usually so deeply ingrained it's not a
>big deal to the speaker--if a hearer raises eyebrows (as Mark did) or
>repeats the word, maybe the user would change it, but probably not.  That's
>why I was wondering who used the form, and whether there was a pause or
>other reaction on the part of the hearer.
>
>It's most definitely not "substandard" or "illiterate"; it represents a
>normal phonological process, much like its opposite, elision, as in
>"s'pose" or "gonna."

Well, yes to all the above, BUT there's something more going on if
"Androcles" is pronounced so as to rhyme (as we've been saying) with
"broccolis".  There's also stress shift, suggesting that (unlike
schwa insertion in clusters like those in "fil[uh]m" or
"jewel[uh]ry", for example) this is in fact the result of someone
reading a word/name they've never actually heard pronounced rather
than a phonological process per se.

>
>At 12:09 PM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>How would you characterize this on a scale of usage, stsndard or
>>substandard or informal or illiterate (a category I suggest for the
>>speech of people who are not familiar with the icons of educated folk
>>in a culture)?
>>
>>Happy New Year and best wishes,
>>Dave
>>
>>Barnhart at highlands.com


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Dec 30 21:15:44 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:15:44 -0500
Subject: "far to"...specific spot?
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.161544.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

While the expression "far to the north (south, east, west)"  is normal and
familiar, "far to (specific spot)", which I ran across in a New England
writer today, looks very odd to me.  Is this a regionalism or
idiosyncratic?
A. Murie


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Dec 30 21:18:04 2002
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:18:04 -0500
Subject: "pretexting"
In-Reply-To: <a0510034aba3645a63b5b@[172.30.5.73]>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.161804.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does pretexting differe substantially from "social engineering," or
would it merely be one of many items which might fit under that
umbrella classification?


--
Grant Barrett
Editor, World New York
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Dec 30 21:24:52 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:24:52 -0800
Subject: Exploring Language
In-Reply-To: <2F406F1D-1C3C-11D7-AFDC-000A9567113C@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.132452.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've just received an examination copy of Gary Goshgarian's _Exploring
Language_, which seems like a fine collection of essays that could be put
into service in a lower-division general education course, perhaps an
inquiry seminar for first-year students. Does anyone out there have any
experience with this text, either as a stand-alone or a supplement to
others? Any advice or suggestions for use would be welcome.

Peter Richardson


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Dec 30 21:50:18 2002
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:50:18 -0500
Subject: "pretexting"
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.165018.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        The contexts and goals are different.  "Social engineering," as I understand the term, is a hacking/cracking term describing ways to gain computer network access by assuming a fake identity over the telephone.  "Pretexting" is a term used by private investigators and regulators, and it refers to somewhat similar methods used, particularly by investigators, to gain information about individuals.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: Grant Barrett [mailto:gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG]
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 4:18 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: "pretexting"


Does pretexting differe substantially from "social engineering," or
would it merely be one of many items which might fit under that
umbrella classification?


--
Grant Barrett
Editor, World New York
http://www.worldnewyork.org/
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec 30 22:31:55 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:31:55 -0500
Subject: Exploring Language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1021230132021.11695I-100000@calvin.linfield. edu>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.173155.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is indeed a good book, either alone or accompanying a standard
linguistics intro. like Fromkin, Rodman, & Hyams or George Yule's nice
small book (the latter is better for beginners).  But another good reader
is Clark, Eschholz, & Rosa, _Language: Readings in Language and Culture_
(at least up to a 6th ed. by now); in fact, I prefer it over Goshgarian's.

At 01:24 PM 12/30/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>I've just received an examination copy of Gary Goshgarian's _Exploring
>Language_, which seems like a fine collection of essays that could be put
>into service in a lower-division general education course, perhaps an
>inquiry seminar for first-year students. Does anyone out there have any
>experience with this text, either as a stand-alone or a supplement to
>others? Any advice or suggestions for use would be welcome.
>
>Peter Richardson


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Dec 30 22:35:28 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:35:28 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <p0432040aba365148961a@[130.132.245.148]>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.173528.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Maybe I missed something:  Were the NPR people really talking rhymes or
games, or was the name used seriously??

At 02:43 PM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Beverly writes:
>
>>Schwa insertion is very normal and generally unnoticed by speakers.  Some
>>may monitor themselves and "correct" the pronunciation in certain
>>circumstances, but pronunciation is usually so deeply ingrained it's not a
>>big deal to the speaker--if a hearer raises eyebrows (as Mark did) or
>>repeats the word, maybe the user would change it, but probably not.  That's
>>why I was wondering who used the form, and whether there was a pause or
>>other reaction on the part of the hearer.
>>
>>It's most definitely not "substandard" or "illiterate"; it represents a
>>normal phonological process, much like its opposite, elision, as in
>>"s'pose" or "gonna."
>
>Well, yes to all the above, BUT there's something more going on if
>"Androcles" is pronounced so as to rhyme (as we've been saying) with
>"broccolis".  There's also stress shift, suggesting that (unlike
>schwa insertion in clusters like those in "fil[uh]m" or
>"jewel[uh]ry", for example) this is in fact the result of someone
>reading a word/name they've never actually heard pronounced rather
>than a phonological process per se.
>
>>
>>At 12:09 PM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>>How would you characterize this on a scale of usage, stsndard or
>>>substandard or informal or illiterate (a category I suggest for the
>>>speech of people who are not familiar with the icons of educated folk
>>>in a culture)?
>>>
>>>Happy New Year and best wishes,
>>>Dave
>>>
>>>Barnhart at highlands.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Dec 30 23:31:46 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 18:31:46 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021230173445.01afbe40@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.183146.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:35 PM -0500 12/30/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Maybe I missed something:  Were the NPR people really talking rhymes or
>games, or was the name used seriously??

Hi, Beverly,

No, the idea of the limerick was from Peter Richardson and me
(independently, although he was the one who actually tried one out--I
had trouble coming up with a third rhyme); evidently the
"an-DROC-uh-leez" pronunciation was seriously uttered on NPR.  My
response here to you was that the schwa insertion may be
phonologically motivated but the stress shift indicates unfamiliarity
with the name.

Larry

>
>At 02:43 PM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>Beverly writes:
>>
>>>Schwa insertion is very normal and generally unnoticed by speakers.  Some
>>>may monitor themselves and "correct" the pronunciation in certain
>>>circumstances, but pronunciation is usually so deeply ingrained it's not a
>>>big deal to the speaker--if a hearer raises eyebrows (as Mark did) or
>>>repeats the word, maybe the user would change it, but probably not.  That's
>>>why I was wondering who used the form, and whether there was a pause or
>>>other reaction on the part of the hearer.
>>>
>>>It's most definitely not "substandard" or "illiterate"; it represents a
>>>normal phonological process, much like its opposite, elision, as in
>>>"s'pose" or "gonna."
>>
>>Well, yes to all the above, BUT there's something more going on if
>>"Androcles" is pronounced so as to rhyme (as we've been saying) with
>>"broccolis".  There's also stress shift, suggesting that (unlike
>>schwa insertion in clusters like those in "fil[uh]m" or
>>"jewel[uh]ry", for example) this is in fact the result of someone
>>reading a word/name they've never actually heard pronounced rather
>>than a phonological process per se.
>>


From self at TOWSE.COM  Mon Dec 30 23:31:59 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:31:59 -0800
Subject: ....the lion
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.153159.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> At 5:35 PM -0500 12/30/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> >Maybe I missed something:  Were the NPR people really talking rhymes or
> >games, or was the name used seriously??
>
> Hi, Beverly,
>
> No, the idea of the limerick was from Peter Richardson and me
> (independently, although he was the one who actually tried one out--I
> had trouble coming up with a third rhyme); evidently the
> "an-DROC-uh-leez" pronunciation was seriously uttered on NPR.  My
> response here to you was that the schwa insertion may be
> phonologically motivated but the stress shift indicates unfamiliarity
> with the name.

Unfamiliarity with the name and, perhaps, familiarity with
shopping at the California grocery store chain Andronico's?
"an-DRON-uh-coze" That's how this pronunciation strikes me.

Sal
--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Dec 31 03:17:05 2002
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:17:05 -0800
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212301419250.105332840-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.191705.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>...and "chocolate" rhymed with "talk a lot").

Rhymed or scanned?

Rima, who, while eating her chocolate would not pron it with a
secondary stress, even with her mouth full.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Dec 31 06:21:17 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:21:17 -0800
Subject: Commoditized?
In-Reply-To: <l03130300ba356f949c3a@[12.107.140.208]>
Message-ID: <MON.30.DEC.2002.222117.0800.>

> This suggests that it is used in a more technical sense.
> "Commodify" I
> think usually has a disparaging or deploring tone.  As in
> deprecating the
> commodification of cultural values, &c.

I can't speak to "commodify," but "commoditize" does have a marketing jargon
sense. A product becomes commoditized when there is no significant
difference between competing brands and the competition is largely based on
price (i.e., it becomes a commodity). Long distance telephone service is a
good example of a commoditized product.

Commoditization is great for consumers, lousy for the providers of the
goods/service. Marketers go to great lengths to avoid the perception of
commoditization, promoting the quality of customer service or the "fact"
that it kills millions of germs on contact or whitens your teeth 60% faster,
etc.

In the Union Square example cited earlier, I took it to mean that the city
planners wanted a mix of locally owned stores and big "commoditized"
national chain stores. But the exact sense is hard to tell without more of
the article to provide context.


From abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Dec 31 10:01:34 2002
From: abatefr at EARTHLINK.NET (Frank Abate)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 05:01:34 -0500
Subject: Barry Popik letter in FT
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.050134.0500.>

All,

Our colleague Barry had a letter to the editor printed in the Dec 30 issue
of Financial Times (the pink paper paper).  Grab a copy and see.

Frank Abate


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Tue Dec 31 15:53:33 2002
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:53:33 EST
Subject: WOTY
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.105333.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beth Simon writes:

<< are we subcategorizing again this year?>>

Yes, as always. Categories and their nominees are decided at the Friday
morning meeting. Everyone is invited.

<< There's a Most Otiose, right? >>
Well, we've called it Most Unnecessary. See the ADS website for winners and
categories of previous years.

- Allan Metcalf


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Dec 31 18:26:46 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:26:46 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <p04320401ba3687233546@[130.132.245.148]>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.132646.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oops--I missed the stress shift.  See you at ADS!

At 06:31 PM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>At 5:35 PM -0500 12/30/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>Maybe I missed something:  Were the NPR people really talking rhymes or
>>games, or was the name used seriously??
>
>Hi, Beverly,
>
>No, the idea of the limerick was from Peter Richardson and me
>(independently, although he was the one who actually tried one out--I
>had trouble coming up with a third rhyme); evidently the
>"an-DROC-uh-leez" pronunciation was seriously uttered on NPR.  My
>response here to you was that the schwa insertion may be
>phonologically motivated but the stress shift indicates unfamiliarity
>with the name.
>
>Larry
>
>>
>>At 02:43 PM 12/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Beverly writes:
>>>
>>>>Schwa insertion is very normal and generally unnoticed by speakers.  Some
>>>>may monitor themselves and "correct" the pronunciation in certain
>>>>circumstances, but pronunciation is usually so deeply ingrained it's not a
>>>>big deal to the speaker--if a hearer raises eyebrows (as Mark did) or
>>>>repeats the word, maybe the user would change it, but probably not.  That's
>>>>why I was wondering who used the form, and whether there was a pause or
>>>>other reaction on the part of the hearer.
>>>>
>>>>It's most definitely not "substandard" or "illiterate"; it represents a
>>>>normal phonological process, much like its opposite, elision, as in
>>>>"s'pose" or "gonna."
>>>
>>>Well, yes to all the above, BUT there's something more going on if
>>>"Androcles" is pronounced so as to rhyme (as we've been saying) with
>>>"broccolis".  There's also stress shift, suggesting that (unlike
>>>schwa insertion in clusters like those in "fil[uh]m" or
>>>"jewel[uh]ry", for example) this is in fact the result of someone
>>>reading a word/name they've never actually heard pronounced rather
>>>than a phonological process per se.


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 31 18:48:07 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:48:07 -0500
Subject: "far to"...specific spot?
In-Reply-To: <l03130300ba3660b4f651@[12.107.146.48]>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.134807.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, sagehen wrote:

#While the expression "far to the north (south, east, west)"  is normal
#and familiar, "far to (specific spot)", which I ran across in a New
#England writer today, looks very odd to me.  Is this a regionalism or
#idiosyncratic?

I can only get it meaning "the distance from here (or other location) to
[specified spot] is far", and at that it seems to be almost negative
polarity: e.g. (made-up) "I asked if it was very far to Shrewsbury, and
they couldn't tell me."

I can't figure more about the construction you're asking about without
more context.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 31 18:50:19 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:50:19 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <a05200f00ba36bbe8e137@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.135019.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:

#>...and "chocolate" rhymed with "talk a lot").
#
#Rhymed or scanned?

Both, somewhat forced:
        Broccoli and choc-o-late
        It made the people talk a lot
The rhyme was somewhat less forced in the singer's (Caribbean?) dialect
than it would be in mine, with the last syllable of "chocolate" being
less destressed and reduced.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 31 18:51:08 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:51:08 -0500
Subject: WOTY Nomination: Captcha
In-Reply-To: <491445C6-1AB5-11D7-B8A9-000A9567113C@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.135108.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Darn, I thought I'd sent this a couple days ago.

On Sat, 28 Dec 2002, Grant Barrett wrote:

#This WOTY nomination is a late entry, coming into common usage only
#recently: captcha. A captcha distinguishes a human from a machine.
#Usually these devices are used to prevent repeated automated logins to
#web sites, such as free email services, which might be abused by
#spammers or others of ill intent.
#
#One mention:
#
#http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/28694.html
#
#The word is supposedly an acronym for Completely Automated Public
#Turing tests to tell Computers and Humans Apart).

Sounds like a bac(k)ronym to me.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 31 19:17:04 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:17:04 -0500
Subject: ....the lion
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021231132549.01f22238@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.141704.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:26 PM -0500 12/31/02, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Oops--I missed the stress shift.  See you at ADS!
>
I wish!  I'll have to miss this one for health reasons.  I'll be
there next year in Boston, though.  I'll have to get the lowdown on
the WOTY votes.  Happy new year!

Larry


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Dec 31 19:24:30 2002
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:24:30 -0500
Subject: "far to"...specific spot?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.4.40.0212311345420.108473101-100000@shell01.TheWorld.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.142430.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, sagehen wrote:
>
>#While the expression "far to the north (south, east, west)"  is normal
>#and familiar, "far to (specific spot)", which I ran across in a New
>#England writer today, looks very odd to me.  Is this a regionalism or
>#idiosyncratic?
>
>I can only get it meaning "the distance from here (or other location) to
>[specified spot] is far", and at that it seems to be almost negative
>polarity: e.g. (made-up) "I asked if it was very far to Shrewsbury, and
>they couldn't tell me."
>
>I can't figure more about the construction you're asking about without
>more context.
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel
~~~~~~
Of course I see your problem.  I didn't give enough information to be clear.
The partial quote: "He was in New York's Washington Heights section, far to
Manhattan's northern tip, near the George Washington Bridge....".

Either "far to the north" or "far up toward Manhattan's,&c." would be clear
at once to me, but this one I stumbled over.

This is a very able writer, which is why I wondered if it might be a
regionalism that I simply was unfamiliar with.
A. Murie





A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From mam at THEWORLD.COM  Tue Dec 31 19:35:17 2002
From: mam at THEWORLD.COM (Mark A Mandel)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:35:17 -0500
Subject: "far to"...specific spot?
In-Reply-To: <l03130303ba3799f36493@[12.107.140.97]>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.143517.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 31 Dec 2002, sagehen wrote:

#Of course I see your problem.  I didn't give enough information to be clear.
#The partial quote: "He was in New York's Washington Heights section, far to
#Manhattan's northern tip, near the George Washington Bridge....".
#
#Either "far to the north" or "far up toward Manhattan's,&c." would be clear
#at once to me, but this one I stumbled over.

Oh, me too! Even "far towards" would be better. I wonder if this is a
result of a slip in editing, either by an editor or by the author during
or after composition. I've found that the ease of editing electronic
text has more than once led me into errors that I can hardly imagine
making in hard-copy draft. -- Has anyone done a study of this
phenomenon?

#This is a very able writer, which is why I wondered if it might be a
#regionalism that I simply was unfamiliar with.

Whence he? I grew up in NYC and it's far from me!

-- Mark A. Mandel


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Dec 31 19:51:47 2002
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:51:47 -0500
Subject: "far to"...specific spot?
In-Reply-To: <l03130303ba3799f36493@[12.107.140.97]>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.145147.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:24 PM -0500 12/31/02, sagehen wrote:
>  >On Mon, 30 Dec 2002, sagehen wrote:
>>
>>#While the expression "far to the north (south, east, west)"  is normal
>>#and familiar, "far to (specific spot)", which I ran across in a New
>>#England writer today, looks very odd to me.  Is this a regionalism or
>>#idiosyncratic?
>>
>>I can only get it meaning "the distance from here (or other location) to
>>[specified spot] is far", and at that it seems to be almost negative
>>polarity: e.g. (made-up) "I asked if it was very far to Shrewsbury, and
>>they couldn't tell me."
>>
>>I can't figure more about the construction you're asking about without
>>more context.
>>
>>-- Mark A. Mandel
>~~~~~~
>Of course I see your problem.  I didn't give enough information to be clear.
>The partial quote: "He was in New York's Washington Heights section, far to
>Manhattan's northern tip, near the George Washington Bridge....".
>
>Either "far to the north" or "far up toward Manhattan's,&c." would be clear
>at once to me, but this one I stumbled over.
>
>This is a very able writer, which is why I wondered if it might be a
>regionalism that I simply was unfamiliar with.
>A. Murie
>
Speaking as someone who grew up in that very region (Fort Washington
Avenue and 163rd Street, echt Washington Heights), this is totally
unfamiliar to me.  I'll wager it's equally so to Mark M, who seems to
share the relevant regional traits.   (I share his judgments on the
negative polarity status of "it's (very) far to X":

If you're in Washington Heights, it's not (very) far to the G. W. Bridge
#If you're in Washington Heights, it's (very) far to the Golden Gate Bridge.

and then there's "it's a fur piece to...", but that thar's a different region.

Larry


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Dec 31 20:08:14 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:08:14 -0500
Subject: Fw: FT.com - Comment & analysis - Letters
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.150814.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Barry's letter on NY's winning the Olympics can be found at:


http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c
 =StoryFT&cid=1039524026955&p=1012571727279

[make sure whole URL is copied]


From self at TOWSE.COM  Tue Dec 31 20:15:12 2002
From: self at TOWSE.COM (Towse)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:15:12 -0800
Subject: Fw: FT.com - Comment & analysis - Letters
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.121512.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David Bergdahl wrote:
>
>  Barry's letter on NY's winning the Olympics can be found at:
>
> http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c
>  =StoryFT&cid=1039524026955&p=1012571727279
>
> [make sure whole URL is copied]

<http://tinyurl.com/3yvq>

TinyURL is a useful tool. You can either use the Web site
<http://tinyurl.com/> or pop a button on your toolbar if you find
yourself using the tool frequently, as I do.

In this case, the URL length was cut from 101 characters to 23.
Having fewer characters means fewer cutn'paste wrap problems.

Sal
--
3K+ useful links for writers, researchers and the terminally
curious <http://www.internet-resources.com/writers/>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Dec 31 21:00:31 2002
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:00:31 -0500
Subject: "far to"...specific spot?
In-Reply-To: <p04320403ba37a47e376d@[130.132.166.207]>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.160031.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:51 PM 12/31/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>and then there's "it's a fur piece to...", but that thar's a different region.
>
>Larry

Hey, that's Southeast Ohio, where we also have a Fur Peace Ranch, run by
Jorma Kaukonen as a guitar camp and concert "venue" (somehow that word
doesn't sound right in this context).


From prichard at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Dec 31 21:04:42 2002
From: prichard at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter Richardson)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:04:42 -0800
Subject: "far to"...specific spot?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20021231155801.00b632d8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.130442.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Hey, that's Southeast Ohio, where we also have a Fur Peace Ranch, run by
> Jorma Kaukonen as a guitar camp and concert "venue" (somehow that word
> doesn't sound right in this context).

Sounds like a retirement home for superannuated mink. No?


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Dec 31 21:33:41 2002
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:33:41 -0500
Subject: Fw: FT.com - Comment & analysis - Letters
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.163341.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

thanks
_________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott, aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG  Tue Dec 31 21:41:04 2002
From: gbarrett at AMERICANDIALECT.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:41:04 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Colonial Williamsburg Speech
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.164104.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Would someone be so kind as to help this person? Please reply directly
to him, and to the list, if you wish.

D?but du message r?exp?di? :

> De: "James P Breig" <jbreig1 at nycap.rr.com>
> Date: Tue 31 Dec 2002  15:06:17 America/New_York
> I am researching an article for the Colonial Williamsburg Journal, the
> quarterly history magazine of the CW Foundation (www.history.org). The
> article will examine if and how researchers can recover how
> 18th-century Americans sounded, that is, what their accents were
> and the ways in which they pronounced English. The article is intended
> both for the average reader of the Journal and for character
> interpreters. Some questions I intend to answer are these: Did
> colonial Americans sound like modern-day Londoners? When and how did
> the southern accent evolve? What methods do philologists and others
> use to re-create 18th-century speech patterns?
>
> Can you recommend some experts I should contact who could help me with
> my article?
>
> Thank you,
> James Breig
> jbreig1 at nycap.rr.com


From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Dec 31 22:03:25 2002
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:03:25 -0800
Subject: The Events
Message-ID: <TUE.31.DEC.2002.140325.0800.>

FWIW, I just heard Sandra Bullock on "The Daily Show" refer to 9/11 as "the
events." I hadn't heard that clipping of "the events of September 11th"
before.

She was talking about her new movie and said (I'm quoting from memory here,
so it's not an exact quote, but its pretty close): "Mayor Bloomberg did a
lot for us because we were the first movie to film in the city since the
events." There was no other mention or discussion of 11 September in the
interview.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net